224: Yearning for Reflection


00:00:00   This is the show that will not end.

00:00:04   Kuba Boguchowicz—Kuba said that Apple used to have many edits of one original.

00:00:11   This is within the context of photos.

00:00:13   Aperture had it and called it versions.

00:00:16   You could have many versions of one master and it worked.

00:00:19   This is with regard to what Jon was asking for last episode.

00:00:23   That's a nice reminder.

00:00:25   of what we've lost. You know, for people who are in the Apple ecosystem and remember the days when

00:00:33   Apple had a pro video, a pro photo editing app, and then one day they didn't anymore. And Lightroom

00:00:39   is great and you can get it and it's by Adobe and it's good that there's competition in that market.

00:00:43   But very often I forget that Aperture even existed. If you had reminded me that Aperture

00:00:50   existed I probably would have remembered this multi-version thing because I did try Aperture

00:00:53   a few times, especially when they got like that, where you used to share its library

00:00:56   with iPhoto in some weird way that never really worked quite right.

00:01:00   Yeah, I kind of miss that.

00:01:02   I wish that stuff would come—I wish iPhoto stuff would come back to Photos, and if you

00:01:07   run out of iPhoto stuff to steal, you can bring stuff from Aperture.

00:01:10   Like it's all in the family.

00:01:11   They've got that source code.

00:01:12   Those people are still there somewhere, right?

00:01:14   All right, an anonymous person wrote in and said, "I was speaking with an Apple Mac OS

00:01:19   And they said they will or have been making better versions of the new MacBook Pro keyboard

00:01:25   and using them in newly produced units without any public acknowledgement or change of model

00:01:29   number.

00:01:30   By implication, Apple will also be using these refined keyboards in any MacBook Pro keyboards.

00:01:34   They said that this refinement of component designs is very common, and they said that

00:01:39   it is often good to wait a few months after a new product is released so that you can

00:01:42   get the revised versions of any components that were found to have had issues after release.

00:01:46   Why do they have to prove Jon right?

00:01:48   I like the idea of them modifying the product but not changing the model number.

00:01:55   Just to add an air of mystery, kind of like, "Oh, these are the good ones.

00:01:58   Yeah, I know it's exactly the same part and it looks exactly the same and the model number

00:02:00   is the same, but these are the good ones."

00:02:02   We learned so much about assembling the old ones that we put magic special dust in it.

00:02:07   I mean, they do.

00:02:08   You do refine your manufacturing process.

00:02:10   Like you refine the assembly, you could even refine some of the materials for the pieces,

00:02:15   you could source them from different places.

00:02:16   This happens in the manufacturer of any remotely complicated good, and I imagine you don't

00:02:21   always change the model number, but as a consumer, this is like telling us what we want to hear.

00:02:28   If you buy later, they're better.

00:02:29   I always believe that voodoo too, and it's always good to wait a little bit.

00:02:32   Even if only from the old style American car battle days of American car manufacturing,

00:02:39   where you don't buy the cars that were assembled on a Friday because the workers don't care

00:02:42   that much and they just want to go off for the weekend, and so they don't do a good job

00:02:45   assembling your car. The idea that after some company has been building a thing for some

00:02:50   period of time, every part of the process of building it becomes refined and the people/machines/whatever

00:02:59   get better at building the thing, even if every single part of it is the same. And so

00:03:02   you kind of don't want like the very first Playstation 4 off the assembly line. Maybe

00:03:07   you want the 7,000th or 100,000th versus the first three. But all those are things that

00:03:14   are just kind of like modern day folk tales I tell myself to make myself feel better about

00:03:21   delaying purchases for a small amount of time. It's kind of the opposite of Margo's folk

00:03:24   tales that he tells himself to make himself feel better about buying things immediately.

00:03:27   But we all have our stories to make us feel good about our decisions. Honestly, I would

00:03:33   like to believe this, but I just don't know.

00:03:38   And by the way, in my defense, the MacBook Escape came out in October. I bought it in

00:03:42   March.

00:03:43   Oh, look at you waiting six months.

00:03:45   Wait, which one? The first one or the second one? Because you did buy it before, you did

00:03:49   order it before it even was shipping to anybody, if I recall.

00:03:52   Yes, that's true. But the one I actually own, the one that I didn't cancel, that I let deliver

00:03:57   to me, the MacBook Escape, I ordered it in March.

00:04:00   - Well that's good because the one you got,

00:04:01   they've totally sorted out the sticky keyboard situation.

00:04:03   - Eh.

00:04:04   (laughing)

00:04:06   - This anonymous person would say,

00:04:07   "Oh, Marco got the last bad one,

00:04:09   "but now they're using all these refined ones

00:04:10   "that have the same model number."

00:04:12   - Mm-hmm.

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00:05:32   - Let's start the show proper.

00:05:38   Let's do what we really need to do.

00:05:41   Let's do what we've been waiting on for several months now.

00:05:44   Let's talk about software methodologies.

00:05:46   Marco, why don't you start?

00:05:48   - I believe in fully test-driven,

00:05:51   agile stand-up parking lot development.

00:05:54   Oh, God, stop. Okay, so let's talk about WWDC. So for some reason you don't know what we're

00:05:58   talking about. WWDC is a worldwide developer conference. It is happening next week as we

00:06:02   record this in San Jose, California. First time that any of us have been to San Jose

00:06:07   for Dub-Dub. It did happen there back in the days before anyone really cared about Apple.

00:06:12   Don't write me. But now we're coming back to San Jose. It's going to be a new experience

00:06:16   for all of us. And there's a lot to talk about. There's a lot of stuff going on. And there's

00:06:23   been surprisingly little chatter about what's forthcoming. And I bet you if you were to

00:06:30   listen to past episodes, I bet you I've said that the last several years. But man, sitting

00:06:35   here now, the way I remember the chatter leading up to iOS 10, iOS 9, and 8 and 7, I feel like

00:06:43   it's like we knew a lot more about what was going into

00:06:46   those releases than we do what's going into iOS,

00:06:50   well, what presumably will be iOS 11.

00:06:53   Do you guys feel the same way?

00:06:55   - Yeah, I mean, especially because,

00:06:57   I mean, first of all, it's a little bit weird,

00:06:58   like we've heard a lot of kinda like weak,

00:07:02   second tier rumors, but very little of much credibility,

00:07:06   or of much certainty, and it seems like, you know,

00:07:12   And the rumors are so spread out

00:07:15   and relatively diverse in their nature,

00:07:18   like it isn't like all about one product

00:07:19   or all about one thing,

00:07:21   that it's looking like it's gonna be a pretty,

00:07:24   potentially pretty big WWDC,

00:07:28   but that nobody can really say for sure exactly why,

00:07:31   which is kind of interesting.

00:07:32   It's kind of fun that way.

00:07:33   Like we have a whole bunch of things

00:07:34   that we've heard might happen

00:07:36   or are supposed to or intended to happen maybe,

00:07:39   but really nothing as concrete as a lot of previous leaks

00:07:44   and reports have been.

00:07:46   - We can make it up in volume.

00:07:48   You're right, there's no big spearhead,

00:07:50   like the one big thing everyone's looking for

00:07:52   and then the ancillary things.

00:07:53   It's just a bunch of other things.

00:07:54   It kind of reminds me, well, maybe I'm misremembering,

00:07:58   was it iOS 8, the year iOS 8 was announced?

00:08:00   They announced all those features

00:08:02   that we thought would never come to iOS,

00:08:03   and no one of them was the thing that we all hope to see.

00:08:08   all held up, but just the fact that there were so many things in iOS 8 that I was so

00:08:13   desperately needed and they all came, that it gave you the satisfaction of sort of being

00:08:17   overwhelmed with the sheer number of things that Apple was doing to improve its product.

00:08:23   We would all like that, right? But the problem with these big laundry lists where there's

00:08:26   no one thing, it's just a bunch of other stuff, is it's not all going to be there. We've heard

00:08:30   rumors of everything. They can't possibly all be there, so there's going to be some

00:08:33   disappointments mixed in, depending on what you care about the most mixed in with the

00:08:38   other stuff.

00:08:39   So, let's go through this.

00:08:42   Somebody has done a little bit of preparation in the show notes, and since I don't know

00:08:45   who it is, and it couldn't possibly have been Marco, that by process of elimination

00:08:48   means it must have been John, who shouldn't be doing any prep or research at him.

00:08:52   But I'm not sure—I haven't even noticed I fill this document out before every single

00:08:56   show.

00:08:57   You think elves do that?

00:08:58   Yes, but—

00:08:59   Yeah.

00:09:00   Oh, yes, I did.

00:09:01   I thought it was the Keebler elves when they were done baking.

00:09:03   Yeah.

00:09:04   you should now honor my organization here because what I have written as the heading

00:09:10   for the section that we're getting into here is, "WWC hopes and dreams." Because, as Marco

00:09:15   pointed out, the rumors are all kind of wishy-washy, like, "They'll probably do some iOS stuff,

00:09:20   man!" Like, alright, yeah, okay. I'm not that interested in predictions, because if there's

00:09:27   one big thing, we'd be like, "Are they gonna introduce the hoverboards or not? It's been

00:09:31   super heavily rumored, let's talk about the hoverboards." Instead I feel like it's, "What

00:09:37   do we want or what do we think Apple should do in each of these areas?" And obviously

00:09:41   we'll talk about predictions in terms of handicapping them, how they go, but I feel ill-equipped

00:09:46   this year to offer any kind of prediction about what will be announced at WWDC, but

00:09:52   I feel reasonably well-equipped to talk about what I would like to see and then secondarily

00:09:57   I think Apple should do and then like I said inevitably will say well could they possibly

00:10:01   do this.

00:10:02   All right so we're going to start and we're going to go through software and then we'll

00:10:07   go through hardware and then we'll go through I don't know kind of miscellaneous stuff.

00:10:11   Can I offer an opening statement?

00:10:14   Well since you seem eager to then please proceed.

00:10:16   Well John did.

00:10:17   Someone's ready for the incomparable.

00:10:18   No that's way too intimidating.

00:10:22   Basically I slightly disagree with the hopes and dreams angle of this.

00:10:27   I have kind of prepared my expectations to be things that I would like to happen, but

00:10:32   that I also think will happen. Things that are realistic, that are plausible, that fit

00:10:36   within Apple's recent...

00:10:37   >>

00:10:37   - Hopes and Dreams fits within that.

00:10:39   I'm not saying like you want a hoverboard

00:10:40   or you want them to roll the car out on the stage

00:10:42   and do a donut.

00:10:43   I mean, we're all gonna be within the realm of reason here,

00:10:47   I think.

00:10:48   That was implied, that wasn't clear.

00:10:49   - Right, and I do think, before we get into specifics,

00:10:53   I would say the general trend I expect this year,

00:10:57   what I'm pretty sure will happen,

00:10:59   like overarching themes, the most powerful messages

00:11:02   that are being delivered,

00:11:03   I think we're gonna have a very heavy focus on Siri

00:11:07   first and foremost.

00:11:08   And it's gonna take all sorts of different forms,

00:11:10   which we'll get to down the road.

00:11:11   But heavy focus on Siri,

00:11:13   also a heavy focus on iPad productivity,

00:11:16   and kind of integrated with that, iCloud Drive.

00:11:19   And then I think secondarily, we'll see things like

00:11:23   the iOS potential redesign.

00:11:26   I think the Mac is gonna be kind of mid-range priority,

00:11:30   and then relatively quiet years for watchOS and tvOS.

00:11:36   but really heavy focus everywhere on Siri, number one.

00:11:41   And then iPad productivity and iCloud drive,

00:11:44   like kind of number two.

00:11:46   - So you're predicting that,

00:11:47   but since you're just talking about overall theme,

00:11:50   do you also hope for that?

00:11:52   And secondarily, do you think

00:11:54   that's what Apple should be focusing on?

00:11:56   - Well, it depends.

00:11:57   I mean, this is, not only is this like,

00:12:01   here's all the cool stuff that we've made this year.

00:12:03   But like every Apple event and like every Apple launch,

00:12:06   There is a certain degree of marketing strategy

00:12:09   that goes into how they present things,

00:12:11   what they even present at all,

00:12:12   what they name things, how things are structured.

00:12:16   And I think Apple is facing a very, very strong

00:12:20   competitive force right now on the voice assistant front

00:12:24   from both Google and Amazon and maybe even Microsoft.

00:12:28   That Siri has been criticized for being behind,

00:12:31   most of it rightfully so in various areas here.

00:12:35   Also, Apple doesn't yet have a Siri cylinder/standalone

00:12:40   speaker thing, and we'll get to that,

00:12:42   'cause that's rumored to possibly be announced this week,

00:12:45   or next week, I guess.

00:12:47   So that might happen, but anyway.

00:12:48   It just seems like Siri is an area in which

00:12:51   kind of the current trend of the tech sphere

00:12:54   that Apple operates in, this is like the hot thing

00:12:57   to be working on, is to have really awesome

00:12:59   voice assistant stuff, and Apple is widely perceived,

00:13:02   mostly fairly as being behind in that area.

00:13:05   So I expect this to be kind of like the way last year,

00:13:08   Apple was perceived to be behind in machine learning,

00:13:12   AI, big data kind of problems.

00:13:14   And so last year, you heard them say machine learning

00:13:18   like a billion times.

00:13:19   They named everything machine learning.

00:13:20   They bragged about how awesome their machine learning was.

00:13:22   It was a hugely driven home talking point.

00:13:25   And it was, everything was kind of marketed around

00:13:28   their version of saying, we are doing machine learning

00:13:30   in this awesome way.

00:13:31   and here's why and here's how we're doing it

00:13:33   and look at all the machine learning we're doing.

00:13:35   Similarly, that's what I think Siri is gonna be this year.

00:13:38   It's gonna be like the overall theme

00:13:40   of basically everything being called Siri,

00:13:43   just like last year where everything

00:13:44   was called machine learning,

00:13:45   everything's gonna be named Siri,

00:13:47   even features that aren't necessarily

00:13:50   what we think of as Siri today.

00:13:51   So like maybe Spotlight will be renamed to Siri.

00:13:56   Maybe search in mail or messages will be renamed to Siri.

00:14:00   who knows, like there could be a lot of angles to this.

00:14:03   I actually think it's possible that HomeKit

00:14:05   will be renamed to Siri.

00:14:07   So you would just say things like,

00:14:08   this light switch works with Siri.

00:14:10   You know, like I think there's a big chance

00:14:12   of stuff like this happening.

00:14:13   That Siri is what Apple is going to be beating us

00:14:16   over the head with this year.

00:14:18   This is gonna be like the talking point theme of the year,

00:14:21   and they're gonna be all about how awesome Siri is,

00:14:24   how far they've come, and how incredibly more advanced

00:14:27   it is than everything else out there.

00:14:28   - I think they're gonna be throwing machine learning

00:14:30   us some more. I don't think Machine Learning's day in the sun is over. Like in addition to Siri,

00:14:34   like, oh, here's the thing about the Siri focus. That, you know, that's what I was getting at with

00:14:37   like, do you, is this something you want to see and do something you think they should do? Well,

00:14:41   so by saying they're behind, and I agree, or they're both perceived to be behind,

00:14:45   and actually are a little behind in a lot of these areas, it's something they should do

00:14:49   if they're actually concerned with keeping up with the Joneses. Many times in history,

00:14:53   Apple seems totally unconcerned with doing the same thing as other companies, as its competitors

00:14:58   are doing. In this situation, because Apple was pretty early out of the gate with Siri,

00:15:02   it's not like they just didn't touch this area at all. They're in it. They're in that market of

00:15:07   smart assistant thing that you talk to, and they were in it very early, and they have a brand and

00:15:11   so on and so forth. So I think it's a situation where they can't say, "Oh, Apple's not interested

00:15:16   in that market," or "We'll enter it when we think there's something." They're already there,

00:15:19   right? They're just behind. So if they can have a Siri focus, I think it is something they should.

00:15:26   if they can means, do they have the APIs and new, you know,

00:15:31   software things to do?

00:15:32   Do they have Siri in a tube or, you know,

00:15:34   like you have to have something behind it.

00:15:36   You can't just sort of float on,

00:15:37   oh, we've made Siri a little bit better

00:15:39   and here's some demos.

00:15:39   You have to have something.

00:15:40   You have to have new APIs, this WWDC,

00:15:43   new ways for apps to integrate it.

00:15:44   A new product would be awesome, right?

00:15:46   And rebranding, you know,

00:15:47   I'm not sure they're gonna ditch HomeKit in that way.

00:15:51   And I don't think they care enough about the Mac

00:15:52   to rebrand any part of it with Siri.

00:15:54   I mean, you know, Mac OS just got Siri recently.

00:15:57   It's like, be happy for a couple of years, Mac OS.

00:15:59   We'll pay attention to you later.

00:16:01   - We'll get there.

00:16:02   - Yeah, I think it is something they should do.

00:16:04   And I think it's also something

00:16:07   that I would want to see them do

00:16:09   because I like, you know, all of us except for Casey,

00:16:12   the holdout, have cylinders in our houses that we talk to.

00:16:15   And I still occasionally talk to Siri on my phone

00:16:19   and other things like that.

00:16:21   And I would love for Siri to get better.

00:16:22   And I would love for there to be other products

00:16:24   and other APIs that incorporate Siri.

00:16:26   Like I said last show, I would like to talk to Overcast

00:16:28   and have it play things for me.

00:16:29   So that kind of Siri kid integration

00:16:31   with that kind of intent would be great as well.

00:16:32   So that theme, you know, and again, this is not,

00:16:35   we haven't delved into the specifics.

00:16:36   We're just saying, broadly speaking, iOS, MacOS,

00:16:38   hardware, software, Siri, machine learning,

00:16:42   that type of thing.

00:16:43   It's maybe not my biggest hope,

00:16:46   well, you know, hopes and dreams for it,

00:16:48   but it is plausible.

00:16:49   It is a thing I think they should do

00:16:51   and I hope they do do it.

00:16:53   - So we might as well actually finish the Siri segment now.

00:16:55   'Cause I think--

00:16:56   - How are you getting away with this?

00:16:58   John usually stops all over us

00:16:59   if we don't follow the show notes.

00:17:01   - Well, no, because he framed it correctly as a broad,

00:17:03   it cuts across all these things.

00:17:04   We're not talking about just iOS or just macOS

00:17:06   or just hardware, just new products.

00:17:08   It's an overall theme.

00:17:09   He framed it well with his opening statement.

00:17:11   The overall theme of the show, if you come away,

00:17:13   and it is kind of a prediction,

00:17:15   but I've brought it back to, is it something you hope for?

00:17:18   And is it something that you think they should do?

00:17:21   Since I sort of have the mic now, I will say that Siri does not do much for me either way.

00:17:29   It doesn't actively make me angry terribly often, although that certainly happens, and

00:17:33   it doesn't actively help my day terribly often, although that also certainly happens.

00:17:38   So right now I'm pretty uninterested in all of this.

00:17:42   That being said, if history tells me anything, any time I tell you that I am completely underwhelmed

00:17:48   and uninterested in something, which may or may not also be me being nonplussed about

00:17:53   something depending on who you ask.

00:17:56   I always end up becoming the world's biggest fan.

00:17:59   For example, would you wait one moment while I check the time on my beloved Apple Watch?

00:18:04   So we'll see what happens if they do release a Syrian Canister, but sitting here now, I

00:18:10   just don't care.

00:18:12   Not a bit.

00:18:13   Let's talk about the Siri in a canister,

00:18:14   because this is very heavily rumored.

00:18:17   It really does seem like not only is this a real product,

00:18:21   but that this really might be announced next week.

00:18:23   That is what the current most common rumors are saying.

00:18:27   So first of all, I think,

00:18:30   let's assume for the sake of this discussion,

00:18:32   let's assume that this thing is real.

00:18:34   I'm gonna call it the Siri speaker for now,

00:18:37   'cause I don't even know if it's gonna be cylindrical shape.

00:18:40   If it's gonna have a screen,

00:18:42   A cylinder doesn't really make a lot of sense,

00:18:43   so it might not be cylindrical, who knows?

00:18:46   So I'll call it the Siri speaker.

00:18:47   Although I do think that there's actually a small chance,

00:18:50   kind of a long shot, that it might be Beats branded.

00:18:53   But I think probably not.

00:18:54   I think Siri is the stronger brand for them

00:18:56   and they're gonna wanna use that here.

00:18:59   Or at least that's the one that they want to drive more.

00:19:02   So first of all, the way I picture this project,

00:19:05   if you think through, how would you do things

00:19:08   like configure apps on it?

00:19:10   What kind of apps would there even be on it?

00:19:12   How would you set it up?

00:19:13   What would manage it?

00:19:14   The way that the Amazon family of products does this

00:19:17   is there is a Lady in the Tube named app on your phone.

00:19:22   And it's not that different from Apple's watch app

00:19:26   on the iPhone.

00:19:27   So it's like the companion app for the hardware product,

00:19:29   which means this hardware product

00:19:31   would need to be paired with an iPhone.

00:19:33   That's what I think Apple's gonna do with this product.

00:19:35   I suspect that it's gonna be like,

00:19:37   there's going to be a Siri app,

00:19:39   much like the Amazon Lady Name app,

00:19:42   and this will be like a centralized control panel,

00:19:45   and I do think this is gonna be iOS in general.

00:19:49   Like you're gonna be able to access the Siri app

00:19:51   for other things as well.

00:19:52   Like that could be a centralized control panel

00:19:54   for HomeKit devices, which might be in Siri devices.

00:19:58   Any kind of integrations, apps, et cetera.

00:20:01   I expect that to also then be,

00:20:04   just like the watch app is for the watch,

00:20:06   that'll be how you manage apps and configuration,

00:20:09   you know, advanced configuration of the Siri speaker device.

00:20:13   Because if you have like a small,

00:20:16   you know, it's probably gonna be like a small

00:20:17   OLED screen on there.

00:20:19   And it probably will be a touch screen and everything,

00:20:21   but it's probably gonna be too small and not that great

00:20:23   for things like a full keyboard.

00:20:25   I don't think it's gonna be that size screen.

00:20:27   It's probably gonna be more like small status displays,

00:20:30   maybe for things like timers,

00:20:31   and maybe room for a few buttons,

00:20:33   like a few big touch targets on screen,

00:20:34   but not like, you know, probably bigger than a watch,

00:20:36   but smaller than a phone.

00:20:37   - What makes you think it'll have a screen at all?

00:20:39   Have you read more recent rumors than I have?

00:20:42   - No, but most of the rumors have said

00:20:44   it will have a screen, so I'm inclined

00:20:47   to believe that it will.

00:20:47   I also, having used the Amazon cylinders

00:20:52   without screens all this time,

00:20:55   I do think it would be nicer with a screen

00:20:57   for some basic tasks.

00:20:59   There's still like, you know,

00:21:02   the primary interface will still be voice,

00:21:06   but it's nice to have a screen

00:21:08   as a secondary information output device

00:21:10   or an ambient information output device.

00:21:13   So for things like watching a timer countdown

00:21:16   or displaying the weather all the time

00:21:18   or things like that,

00:21:19   it's nice to have a screen for things like that.

00:21:21   I don't know if they're gonna go full blown

00:21:23   like video screen for video calls the way Amazon has.

00:21:27   I don't know about that,

00:21:28   'cause that whole idea kind of makes

00:21:31   not that much sense to me.

00:21:32   It's kind of ungraceful and I don't know.

00:21:35   I'm not sure I see Apple,

00:21:36   even though they already have like FaceTime and everything,

00:21:38   I'm not sure I see them doing the video call market

00:21:41   with this device because they already have it

00:21:43   on all their other devices.

00:21:44   But anyway, I do suspect that they're going to have

00:21:48   an iPhone companion app named Siri

00:21:50   that will encompass all this stuff,

00:21:52   probably even replace what is now called the Home app.

00:21:56   That'll be just like the new Home app.

00:21:57   Now it's called Siri and it comps all the stuff

00:21:59   and it lets you manage your Siri cylinder.

00:22:02   I expect the Siri cylinder to be primarily sold

00:22:07   on privacy, the screen itself, and being good

00:22:11   'cause it will be the first screen,

00:22:12   one of these things to market probably,

00:22:15   or at least it'll be close to Amazon's

00:22:16   that's coming out at the end of this month.

00:22:18   I also expect Apple to push sound quality hard.

00:22:22   Apple still has big foothold in music

00:22:24   and they have a lot of people there who care about music

00:22:26   And frankly, it wouldn't be that hard

00:22:28   to sound better than the Echo.

00:22:29   So I expect them to push sound quality hard.

00:22:31   It is totally possible to sound good in a small enclosure.

00:22:36   And I know that because I have a Sonos Play One speaker

00:22:39   right next to my Echo that I hardly ever use anymore

00:22:42   because it's so much less convenient.

00:22:44   But the Play One is almost the same size as the Echo

00:22:47   and it sounds way better, it's not even close.

00:22:50   And so I know Apple would have the expertise

00:22:52   to develop something really good sounding

00:22:54   in that size class if they want to.

00:22:56   and they probably do want to,

00:22:57   'cause that could be a great selling point.

00:22:59   I would also suggest that this is also Apple,

00:23:04   and this is also Tim Cook's Apple,

00:23:06   so there is almost no chance

00:23:08   there's gonna be just one of these.

00:23:09   It's probably gonna be like,

00:23:12   the Amazon one with the screen is like 230 bucks,

00:23:15   something like that.

00:23:17   I'm guessing the cheapest one you can buy from Apple

00:23:20   is 300, maybe even more,

00:23:23   and that that's not gonna be the one anybody wants to buy.

00:23:25   that there's gonna be upsell models.

00:23:27   Maybe there'll be different materials, different colors.

00:23:30   Probably there are gonna be things like bigger

00:23:32   or differently specced speakers.

00:23:35   And that's what Sonos does.

00:23:35   They have the small ones, medium, big ones.

00:23:37   And the big ones are really expensive.

00:23:39   Maybe they'll even go as far as to have

00:23:42   different storage tiers like the Apple TV,

00:23:44   but that was kind of my comedy option.

00:23:46   I don't actually believe they're going to do that.

00:23:47   I hope they don't 'cause the actual storage tiers

00:23:50   on the actual Apple TV are a comedy option

00:23:53   that make no sense.

00:23:54   So I hope they've learned and I hope they don't do that here

00:23:57   but I'm guessing like roughly 300 bucks for a base model

00:24:01   but the one you're gonna actually want

00:24:03   is gonna be more than that for some premium reason,

00:24:06   probably better speakers or something like that.

00:24:09   And then otherwise I think, you know,

00:24:13   if it runs, it would make sense for it to run apps

00:24:16   and the way they would probably do that

00:24:17   is very similar to how the watch is doing it.

00:24:20   So the iOS app would be the host/container

00:24:25   and it would have a special extension

00:24:27   that runs on the Siri speaker

00:24:29   and that the companion app would manage

00:24:31   that relationship for you if you wanted

00:24:32   to install or delete them,

00:24:34   but that it would be an iOS extension

00:24:36   that is not running on the phone,

00:24:38   it's running on the speaker,

00:24:39   but it's managed by the parent app on the phone

00:24:42   and by the companion app.

00:24:44   And then my only other kind of long shot on this,

00:24:48   Obviously they're gonna heavily push Apple Music

00:24:50   and music is gonna be, I think,

00:24:51   one of the biggest selling points of this thing.

00:24:53   I think long shot number two, besides the Beats brand,

00:24:57   is that they might even pull a Sonos

00:25:01   and attack them head on and do multi-room audio from day one

00:25:05   which currently, Amazon doesn't do it all yet.

00:25:09   I know Google announced they were going to

00:25:11   but have they actually shipped that yet?

00:25:12   - I don't have the famous idea.

00:25:14   - Jon, you're in charge of Google Home on this show.

00:25:16   - I only have one of them, why would I know?

00:25:18   - I've got a second one, I'm gonna answer the question.

00:25:19   All right, so yeah, I think it would be really cool

00:25:23   if Apple did Sonos multivroom audio.

00:25:26   Now that I've had a Sonos system for a couple of years,

00:25:29   I do really enjoy that, like it's really nice

00:25:31   to have speakers in multiple rooms of your house.

00:25:34   So like when you're doing things around the house,

00:25:36   you can have the same music playing on all of them.

00:25:38   It's really nice.

00:25:39   And the main reason I don't use that anymore

00:25:41   is because it's so much more convenient

00:25:42   to have everything voice controlled.

00:25:44   So if Apple can combine those things,

00:25:46   Amazon, I'm kind of surprised they haven't,

00:25:48   but they haven't.

00:25:49   So if Apple can be the first one to combine those things,

00:25:52   and if they're gonna have a heavy music focus,

00:25:54   and if they're gonna have good speakers in these things

00:25:57   to begin with, that could be a really strong,

00:25:59   competitive advantage, because they're probably

00:26:01   not gonna be as strong with the voice accuracy,

00:26:04   or the reliability, or the speed,

00:26:06   or the third-party integrations.

00:26:08   So they can try to get advantages in other areas

00:26:10   where Apple is strong.

00:26:11   So things like physical design, the UI of the thing,

00:26:16   sound quality, multi-room audio,

00:26:18   major music integration.

00:26:19   That's where I expect Apple to go with this.

00:26:22   - You have such a specific vision

00:26:23   of this entire ecosystem of products

00:26:25   that makes me think you have inside information

00:26:27   that we don't have.

00:26:28   - I, so here's the thing, I don't--

00:26:29   - That's a lot of specifics, that's a lot of specifics.

00:26:32   - No, but I don't, but what I basically did was

00:26:34   I started writing out this note of like,

00:26:36   what I expect this thing might be.

00:26:39   And then I started thinking about,

00:26:39   okay, well, does it run apps?

00:26:42   If it runs apps, where do the apps come from?

00:26:45   And once you're thinking through it,

00:26:47   how might they do this?

00:26:49   - Yeah, no, every one of those things sounds like,

00:26:51   yeah, that's exactly the way they would do it

00:26:53   if they were doing that.

00:26:53   But what I have trouble with is,

00:26:55   you just listed out, if they were to catch up

00:26:57   with everybody on all fronts at once,

00:26:59   this is how they'd do it, and I agree.

00:27:00   I'm pessimistic that they are going to do that.

00:27:05   And what I'm thinking of is,

00:27:07   of all the things you described, it's like,

00:27:08   okay, you're not gonna get all this stuff.

00:27:10   With the first product,

00:27:12   it's gonna concentrate on one area or another.

00:27:13   So for example, one angle could be, again, if this thing is even announced,

00:27:17   WWC, a multi-room audio, no screen, Siri speaker, right?

00:27:22   That alone seems like a version one product from Apple.

00:27:25   Like none of the other things you mentioned are there.

00:27:27   There's no screen, there's no apps.

00:27:28   There's no, you know, home kit, a central home hub thing.

00:27:31   There's no, you know, it's just, it's just Siri speaker.

00:27:34   You can talk to it and it's multi-room audio and that's it.

00:27:37   And they're expensive in this two of them.

00:27:38   Right.

00:27:39   I'm on board with that.

00:27:40   Or it could be a home hub thing,

00:27:42   but then no multi-room audio,

00:27:44   but just like one good speaker in the thing.

00:27:46   Or it could be a little app platform thing

00:27:48   that isn't a speaker, but that, you know, it's like,

00:27:50   I have trouble making myself believe that today's Apple

00:27:53   is going to come out of the gate

00:27:55   with something so comprehensive.

00:27:56   But if they did, like I agree with you,

00:27:58   that if they did attack on all those fronts,

00:28:00   that's probably how they would attack

00:28:02   on every single one of those fronts,

00:28:03   because it's based on, you know,

00:28:05   something they've done before, technology they already have,

00:28:07   things they're already good at,

00:28:09   and enhancements to things that they, you know,

00:28:11   we're obviously assuming enhancements to Siri

00:28:13   to go along with this to make it more capable

00:28:15   just in general, right?

00:28:16   - Well, but what I'm describing is a smaller scale

00:28:21   than the first version of the Apple Watch.

00:28:23   And it's way easier to make

00:28:24   'cause it's this big chunky thing.

00:28:26   - The Apple Watch was so incredibly hyped and rumored

00:28:29   that it was like the, you know,

00:28:30   and it just, the Apple Watch came out

00:28:33   and it did do all those things all at once,

00:28:34   but the lead up to it matched that.

00:28:38   Like it was not, I mean, they, what they, they built that whole temporary thing

00:28:41   and had this giant special event for it.

00:28:43   And we all knew it was coming.

00:28:44   It was just like, and what is it going to be?

00:28:46   Is it going to be a holographic wrist thing that floats on it?

00:28:48   Like it was just, it was out of control.

00:28:50   Right.

00:28:51   And they did do a really good job on it.

00:28:53   And you know, they figured out the software eventually too.

00:28:54   But the series stuff is like, I wonder if Apple will ever have a tube thing.

00:28:59   Yeah, maybe.

00:28:59   Oh, I hear it might be WWC.

00:29:01   Maybe we'll have a screen.

00:29:02   Maybe it won't probably have a speaker.

00:29:03   Cool.

00:29:04   Like, like it's getting back to like the scope of like Apple could make a really

00:29:07   a good Bluetooth speaker, as I think I said

00:29:08   a couple of shows ago.

00:29:09   It's like, yeah, they could, if they felt like it, right?

00:29:12   And you're like, no, Apple can dominate this whole market

00:29:15   by doing everything super awesome way

00:29:17   and just charging us twice as much.

00:29:18   - Well, no, I didn't say that.

00:29:20   I didn't say that because there are gonna be major areas

00:29:22   of this that Apple's not gonna be competitive on

00:29:24   because it's all based on Siri.

00:29:26   And there are major areas that Siri isn't competitive on.

00:29:28   Things like speed, reliability,

00:29:30   and certain levels of intelligence.

00:29:31   - Well, and again, the underlying premise is that

00:29:35   this comes along with a new and improved version of Siri.

00:29:38   Like, that Siri in this tube is better

00:29:40   than Siri in all other places.

00:29:41   And it's an interesting question of whether,

00:29:43   say they even do that.

00:29:43   - Oh, I don't believe that at all.

00:29:44   I think it's gonna be exactly the same Siri.

00:29:47   - You think so?

00:29:47   I mean, at the very least, I would hope

00:29:48   that it would hear me better than the microphones

00:29:50   in a watch or in the phone,

00:29:52   just because they've got more room for more microphones,

00:29:53   right? - Well, it might,

00:29:54   but honestly, I don't have much problem

00:29:57   with Siri hearing me properly.

00:29:58   Like, the words that I say

00:29:59   are usually transcribed very accurately.

00:30:02   It's what they do afterwards.

00:30:03   That's usually the problem.

00:30:04   I have some trouble with activations, but yeah, but like on the Siri tube speaker screen,

00:30:12   whatever thing, I'm currently filing this in the category of a thing that I totally

00:30:18   believe Apple has worked on and may still be working on, but that it would not shock

00:30:23   me if there was no dedicated Siri related hardware announced at WWDC.

00:30:30   So I'm not pinning my hopes on this being a WWDC, even if it's a thing they're working

00:30:35   on, even if they are going to ship it later, I don't know.

00:30:40   Just think of the Apple TV that missed WWDC, remember when that happened?

00:30:43   Like the new Apple TV and they were going to have it for everybody and it just didn't

00:30:45   quite make it, right?

00:30:46   So I'm putting this in that bin right now, which would be a shame, but looking down the

00:30:51   list of the rest of the things, I still feel like they would have enough stuff to make

00:30:53   a good keynote without any serious stuff.

00:30:57   And if they did have it, would they save it for the end?

00:31:01   Is that the biggest announcement that they save towards the end slot where the good stuff

00:31:05   comes?

00:31:06   They obviously lead with WatchOS and macOS updates and then build up to the stuff that

00:31:09   we really care about, right?

00:31:11   And this is the last thing?

00:31:14   I guess we'll find out.

00:31:15   But anyway, that's how I feel about the Siri thing in terms of predictions, that it will

00:31:18   be more constrained than all the things that Marco listed and that I would not be shocked

00:31:23   if it didn't appear.

00:31:24   And I'm not going to -- and honestly, if everything else comes out, everything else has reasonably

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00:33:43   (upbeat music)

00:33:47   - All right, so I'm sorry boss, what are we doing right now?

00:33:49   - iOS, iOS, 'cause we're going for the biggest,

00:33:51   I feel like now, please Marco wanted to go right

00:33:53   for the dessert and talk about the Siri,

00:33:55   which is like the new hardware, new product category,

00:33:57   like the most, probably the most exciting thing

00:33:59   that could be announced at WWDC.

00:34:02   Introducing a new product category

00:34:04   that Apple was in before, a thing that rarely happens.

00:34:06   We did that one and I feel like iOS

00:34:08   is the next biggest possible announcement,

00:34:11   because there's a lot of rumors and ideas around

00:34:17   iOS not just improving its capabilities, improving capabilities of the iPad and adding features

00:34:23   that people have wanted and getting back on the bandwagon of advancing iOS, but also the

00:34:30   possibility that major foundational interface paradigms in iOS could be rethought, particularly

00:34:37   about how applications deal with files and drag and drop, which drag and drop is not

00:34:43   at all, and files is in a way that is not like the old way where there was no access

00:34:49   to the file system, but is kind of this awkward middle ground.

00:34:52   So there's a lot of rumors surrounding that.

00:34:55   And again, when we say file system, we don't mean like the literal file system, which is

00:34:58   APFS now, yay.

00:35:00   But like in terms of file management, there's a lot of rumors about that.

00:35:04   Any and all of those things are significant for iOS.

00:35:08   And most of it, I feel like, is focused on sort of the high end of iOS, the devices that

00:35:12   are big and fast and have a lot of memory, not so much on your phones, like what is this

00:35:18   going to do about your phones, more about like, hey, I've got this big powerful 12.5

00:35:23   inch iPad Pro with the stylus, but multitasking hasn't changed much in many years and there's

00:35:30   no drag and drop and dealing with files is still kind of a pain.

00:35:34   And for many years there have been rumors about that being rejiggered, but this certainly

00:35:39   seems like the year when the announcement, kind of like iOS 8, where the announcements

00:35:43   for iOS will be things that have been a long time coming that are super impressive that

00:35:47   people look at and say, "A, this is going to change how I use my iOS device in a positive

00:35:52   way," and developers are going to say, "B, I can't wait to add support for that for my

00:35:55   application," which is a perfect fit for WWDC. iOS is the glory OS, and they can start adding,

00:36:02   for lack of a better word, pro features to iOS. The crowd will love it. Developers will

00:36:06   love it. Users will love it.

00:36:07   Yeah, I don't know what to make of all that. I was asked by a friend of the show, Steven Hackett, to do a piece for his members' newsletter.

00:36:16   And so I wrote a piece that I'll eventually post on my website, but probably not for a few weeks, about why I think that the iOS--or the iOS, geez, the iPad is not for me anymore.

00:36:27   And since I just made this public declaration that the iPad is not for me anymore

00:36:33   I expect that whatever is done at WWDC this year will make me go crawling

00:36:38   Directly back to the iPad and tell everyone about how I never doubted the iPad and the iPad has always been the thing for me

00:36:45   But I think it's obvious that this is going to be a year. That's heavy on iPad

00:36:50   I think I think it's possible that Federico Vatici smile may not fit through the doors on the way out of the keynote

00:36:57   note, which to me, truth be told, is a good thing. I don't dislike the iPad, I just feel

00:37:04   like I'm neutered, or not neutered maybe, but handcuffed is a better word for it, handcuffed

00:37:08   by it. And so if a lot of the pain points that I have when using the iPad went away,

00:37:19   that would be really great. But to come back to the ostensible point of all this, which

00:37:23   is Hopes and Dreams. I do Hope and Dream for a better Siri API. I think it would be somewhat

00:37:30   useful for what I do at my day job, but I think it would be super useful for things

00:37:35   like Overcast. There's been many times that I've wanted to say, you know, "Hey, Dingus,

00:37:41   play," I don't know, "Fatal Error in Overcast," or something like that. Or, you know, "Hey,

00:37:46   Dingus, play Dubai Friday in Overcast." And having the ability to do that would be really,

00:37:50   really awesome.

00:37:53   I'm a little disappointed that Swift is open source in that, as far as I know, a lot of

00:38:02   the things that I want from Swift aren't happening because if they were happening, I would know

00:38:07   them because open source.

00:38:09   And so I'm hopeful that maybe some stuff has been happening behind the scenes that is Swift-specific.

00:38:15   I've been yearning for reflection, I've been yearning for async/await.

00:38:20   There's a bunch of other things that I've wanted

00:38:21   that I can't think of off the top of my head,

00:38:23   but every indication is that I'm not getting

00:38:26   any of those things because if I was,

00:38:27   I would know about it because open source.

00:38:29   However, that being said, any improvements to Xcode

00:38:32   to make writing Swift a little better,

00:38:36   to make using Swift a little better would be great.

00:38:39   And I know that's tangentially related to iOS,

00:38:42   but that is what-- - Very, very tangentially.

00:38:45   - Well, it's good.

00:38:47   - I was gonna say, I ran you in,

00:38:50   but I will allow you to make the bold prediction

00:38:51   that there will be a new version of Xcode announced at WWDC.

00:38:54   - No, no, no, no, but I want to see,

00:38:57   like as an example, they added,

00:38:59   I forget the official term for the feature,

00:39:01   but like the memory graph visualizer,

00:39:04   and they added the reveal clone, which is also excellent.

00:39:08   And those are great, but that's sort of a change

00:39:11   is not what I'm looking for.

00:39:13   What I'm looking for is something that makes

00:39:15   writing Swift better and easier,

00:39:18   like being able to refactor Swift code.

00:39:21   Like the fact that we can't do that

00:39:23   is kind of preposterous now.

00:39:25   And I've been talking to some people at work about Kotlin,

00:39:29   about some of these other languages,

00:39:30   about the way .NET matured.

00:39:33   And if you look at the differences in .NET

00:39:35   over the same stretch of time as Swift has had,

00:39:38   I feel like C#,

00:39:40   but maybe I should use C# rather than .NET,

00:39:42   C# moved way, way quicker.

00:39:45   And I wish that Swift could pick up the pace a little bit,

00:39:49   which is funny because maybe the only way

00:39:50   for them to pick up the pace a little bit

00:39:52   might be to take away some of the community involvement

00:39:55   and make it more dictatorial rather than democratic.

00:39:59   But anyway, I digress.

00:40:00   The point I'm driving at--

00:40:01   - I don't think that's gonna go faster.

00:40:02   You really think C# moved faster?

00:40:04   Like did it have backwards incompatible syntax changes

00:40:08   as rapidly as Swift did?

00:40:09   Because I feel like that was unprecedented.

00:40:11   - No, I mean, generally it was additive

00:40:14   any time that C#, I mean, it wasn't always,

00:40:16   but generally my recollection is it was always additive.

00:40:18   And there were always humongous features

00:40:22   in pretty much every version.

00:40:23   Like I don't remember the exact history offhand,

00:40:25   but 1.1 didn't have generics, then 2.0 had generics,

00:40:28   that's when the language actually got usable.

00:40:31   I forget what 3.0 brought, but then when you had link,

00:40:34   and then you had async/await, and so there's been consistent.

00:40:36   - But you're up to, by that,

00:40:38   Swift is in the three to four stage now, right?

00:40:41   - I'm talking in terms of equivalent calendar time though,

00:40:43   Maybe I'm misremembering.

00:40:44   Maybe I'm wrong.

00:40:45   - Yeah, I think you have to check those calendar days

00:40:46   'cause I think actually what has been moving pretty quickly

00:40:48   and I think it took a long time for C#,

00:40:50   check the timelines.

00:40:52   I feel like C# moved at a similar rate

00:40:54   but didn't break syntax as much

00:40:56   and went for longer until it got,

00:40:59   certainly before it got async await

00:41:01   and maybe even before it got link.

00:41:04   - Yeah, I don't remember off the top of my head

00:41:06   when link came out, but it was,

00:41:09   It has always been, to my eyes, moving quicker than Swift.

00:41:17   So Link was released as a major part of .NET 3.5 in '07.

00:41:21   So 2000, 2001-ish was .NET 1.1.

00:41:25   2006 years.

00:41:26   Swift hasn't been out for six years.

00:41:28   That's true.

00:41:29   That's a fair point.

00:41:30   It seems more compressed because it's in the past.

00:41:33   And maybe ID is coming along better.

00:41:34   But yeah, I think--

00:41:35   Oh, it's the truth.

00:41:36   So I expect, obviously, there to be new version of Xcode.

00:41:40   And some of those things that you talked about

00:41:43   feel like they should be coming around this time

00:41:45   as Apple turns the giant ship that is its DevTools division

00:41:49   slowly but surely over a multi-year period entirely

00:41:51   towards Swift.

00:41:53   Still no ABI compatibility.

00:41:55   We're still waiting on that.

00:41:56   But that's, as many people point out,

00:41:57   every time we bring this up, is more of a concern for Apple

00:41:59   than it is for developers, people

00:42:01   say, who don't mind shipping slightly

00:42:02   larger than normal applications, which I guess is everybody,

00:42:05   the App Store. But things like refactoring and other features that

00:42:09   like aren't available for Swift but have been available in some limited form for

00:42:14   Objective-C or seem like they'll be reasonably easy to do given that the

00:42:20   entire IDE is built on the same compiler platform as the language and so on and

00:42:23   so forth that uh yeah I expect people to be happy with with the features they get

00:42:29   there but honestly it seems to me from looking at those public mailing lists and

00:42:33   everything, that there is still a pretty big emphasis on the basics, you know, compile

00:42:41   quickly, correctly without crashing, you know, that type of stuff, that maybe they're still

00:42:47   not quite in a position to start giving you all the frills that you want, and that's probably

00:42:50   the best place for them to be concentrating.

00:42:52   You know, they're getting more serious about source compatibility now, and every developer

00:42:56   there wants their thing to compile in a sane amount of time, and they don't want the compiler

00:43:00   to crash and they don't want there to be bugs.

00:43:03   We're kind of think we're coming out of that phase for Swift slowly but surely and maybe

00:43:07   they'll have some things to brag about.

00:43:08   Like look, I don't know, they usually don't brag about how many times Xcode crashes, but

00:43:11   they will brag about compile times.

00:43:12   "Hey look, you enable whole module optimization and compile this big project and it was garbage

00:43:17   in the past version, but the new WWDC beta version is like 10 times faster and everybody

00:43:21   cheers."

00:43:22   It's always a crowd pleaser, WWDC, compile times.

00:43:26   But in terms of like iOS directly, shrug, I don't know.

00:43:31   And like there's nothing I can think of that I can point to that really grinds my gears

00:43:37   on a daily basis.

00:43:39   And I think that's largely because I don't use the iPad very much at all.

00:43:44   So do you think, so you know, if you're not an iPad user or we're setting aside the iPad

00:43:47   where we think Apple needs to do stuff and they will do stuff, I think that if they're

00:43:53   rethinking how applications deal with and share their data.

00:43:58   Not the drag and drop business, because on a phone you still just got one app on the

00:44:01   screen at the same time, probably.

00:44:02   Although, who knows what the hell they'll do with the giant phone.

00:44:06   But if they change how apps deal with data, that could surface itself on the phone.

00:44:12   I'm trying to think if that would change something about how we use the phone, right?

00:44:18   Because that wouldn't be a paradigm that only changes on the iPad.

00:44:21   It would change everywhere across iOS.

00:44:23   And if they have a good idea about how to do it,

00:44:25   that would change the way we all use our phones

00:44:28   in some small way.

00:44:28   I imagine maybe even--

00:44:30   god, I don't know.

00:44:31   I was trying to think of what do we do with our phones?

00:44:33   We deal with photos a lot, but we don't deal with them

00:44:35   as files.

00:44:35   We deal with them as these abstract things.

00:44:37   So yeah, I'm also struggling to think of any specific thing

00:44:42   that they desperately need to do on the phone specifically

00:44:45   to iOS.

00:44:46   But I'm sure there will be something.

00:44:48   And obviously, you know, neat new small features,

00:44:51   performance improvements, you know, bug fixes,

00:44:53   all sorts of stuff like that,

00:44:55   but we're not really counting those.

00:44:56   But yeah, I feel like this will be,

00:44:58   this will be a pro year for iOS

00:45:01   if all the rumors are to be believed,

00:45:02   and it should be, because that's where iOS

00:45:06   needs the most attention.

00:45:08   - Yeah, I mean, I would say that, you know,

00:45:10   all the rumblings we've heard about the iPad

00:45:14   productivity enhancements do sound very plausible.

00:45:17   I think a lot of it could come to the phone.

00:45:19   I mean, some of the stuff like side by side multitasking

00:45:22   obviously won't be coming from the phone in all likelihood,

00:45:25   but they could do drag and drop.

00:45:27   What if they did some kind of thing,

00:45:29   this is just totally random that I just thought of right now,

00:45:31   but what if they did some kind of thing where

00:45:33   if you force pressed on a selected piece of content, say,

00:45:38   then you got something kind of like what Exposé on the Mac

00:45:41   is where it kind of zooms out to a grid

00:45:46   of the last couple of most recently used apps

00:45:48   and you can drop it onto one of them

00:45:50   and then that pops in and you can drop on

00:45:52   onto a specific part of the app.

00:45:53   There are ways to do it on the phone.

00:45:56   I'm not saying they will do this

00:45:57   or this may even be a terrible idea.

00:45:59   I just thought of it now.

00:46:00   So I haven't thought this through, so could be terrible.

00:46:03   But they could totally do drag and drop

00:46:07   and inter-app communication and data sharing

00:46:11   without actually having side-by-side multitasking

00:46:14   where the screen is too small, like on the iPhone.

00:46:17   So I wouldn't rule that out,

00:46:19   but I would just say in general,

00:46:21   I'm very excited to see if the rumors

00:46:23   are to be believed here,

00:46:24   the elevation of iCloud Drive probably,

00:46:29   into the desktop or the document's folder for iOS.

00:46:34   And that is a really, I think since the dawn of iOS,

00:46:42   there has been this constant fight within Apple,

00:46:47   probably from what we've heard,

00:46:49   spearheaded by Steve Jobs personally,

00:46:51   and possibly even Forstall,

00:46:53   and kind of that line of thought

00:46:54   of trying to get rid of having to deal with files.

00:46:59   They have worked so hard to get rid of files,

00:47:03   because files are the old way of doing things,

00:47:05   and people find them confusing them,

00:47:06   whatever else, whatever else.

00:47:07   Files have problems just like everything else.

00:47:10   But I think what we've found over the years

00:47:12   is that people understand files better than Apple

00:47:16   gave them credit for, and that so much of work

00:47:20   that people do on computing devices

00:47:23   really comes down to dealing with files.

00:47:25   And no matter what you try to do with the app model,

00:47:28   with having these little containers that the apps work,

00:47:31   that use their own data,

00:47:31   that's kind of like file-less architecture,

00:47:34   or that you kind of hide the files

00:47:38   in these little dark places,

00:47:39   like the document picker that we have now,

00:47:41   and you kind of reluctantly deal with files

00:47:44   as the system.

00:47:46   I think what we found over these eight or whatever years

00:47:49   that we've had the iPad, that we've had iOS, 10 years, wow.

00:47:53   Geez, been a long time.

00:47:54   No, 11, oh my God.

00:47:57   Anyway, all these years that we've had iOS,

00:47:59   I think what we found is that files are here to stay.

00:48:03   That we can reduce the ways we deal with files,

00:48:07   we can design apps that don't need to deal with files,

00:48:10   and maybe that should even be the default way

00:48:12   most apps are designed, depending on what they do,

00:48:15   but that we can't get rid of files,

00:48:17   that they're here to stay, that people use them,

00:48:20   that they aren't necessarily even bad.

00:48:24   For many types of work, that is less bad

00:48:28   than the alternatives that we've been trying to shove

00:48:30   down people's throats for the last decade.

00:48:32   So maybe this is finally the time when Apple

00:48:35   has finally embraced files on iOS,

00:48:38   because everything they've done prior to this

00:48:40   has really not been that.

00:48:41   It's really been like reluctant, back alley stuff.

00:48:45   Now, like, from what we, if what we've heard is at all true,

00:48:50   it sounds like they have finally taken the step

00:48:53   of making files easier to work with on iOS.

00:48:57   - Yeah, that's definitely the rumor,

00:48:59   but I feel like they already took a big step

00:49:02   in that direction when they adopted a modified version

00:49:06   of the Dropbox model with iCal drive.

00:49:08   Like that was a big change.

00:49:09   That was kind of, and not that I agree

00:49:11   that it didn't solve the problem in the same way,

00:49:13   but that was the turning point, I feel like,

00:49:14   where you could see from the outside,

00:49:16   you could see aha, inside the company,

00:49:19   the argument that you just described,

00:49:20   like the supposed jobs forced opposition

00:49:23   totally against files that the tide had turned, right?

00:49:26   Obviously they couldn't come out at that point and say,

00:49:28   "Oh, we've revamped the entire way

00:49:30   "we deal with files in iOS."

00:49:31   Like it took a while.

00:49:32   And a lot of these things, by the way,

00:49:33   a lot of the iOS rumored things,

00:49:35   A lot of them are like, "Oh, that was almost ready for iOS 10 and didn't quite make it."

00:49:40   Like, they have been a long time coming.

00:49:41   Some of them could have in theory almost made it to iOS 10, but they have just, you know,

00:49:45   they've missed releases and so they've built up and so now it's all landing now.

00:49:48   But iCloud Drive did come out.

00:49:49   It came out to the Mac and iOS, and it did change away a lot of applications.

00:49:53   You do things, and you mentioned like the Dropbox picker, which that was something unheard

00:49:56   of in the early days of iOS.

00:49:58   So this could be like the coming out party for a strategy that was embarked upon multiple

00:50:03   years ago and now finally comes to fruition.

00:50:07   And in terms of the files, every time I think about different ways of dealing with files

00:50:10   that are not actual files or not actual file systems and stuff like that, I think a little

00:50:14   bit about Google's take on this, which I know is different because all their stuff is in

00:50:19   the cloud, but what's the difference between files and documents?

00:50:23   Well, there's not really any difference.

00:50:25   It's just alternate ways of viewing the same thing.

00:50:27   But it's the way Google is pretty relentless about dealing with documents and documents

00:50:34   that are organized into things that look like little folders, but at no point are there

00:50:37   anything – is there any abstraction that is identifiable as a file, really?

00:50:41   I mean, even when they give you like a list view, like – in my experience using Google

00:50:46   Docs and Google Sheets and all that, Google Presentations and Google Drive at work with

00:50:51   with a bunch of other people, seeing how other people

00:50:53   both talk about and deal with documents, Google documents,

00:50:58   is subtly different than how they talk about

00:51:02   and deal with files, because we do have shared drives

00:51:05   with files and everything.

00:51:06   And I'm not sure one way is better than the other,

00:51:08   but Google has made a pretty convincing case for me

00:51:12   that dealing with things like documents,

00:51:16   even with awkward, weird, shareable URLs,

00:51:19   but the URLs that still work, even if you quote unquote

00:51:22   move the documents to a different quote unquote folder,

00:51:24   like it's weird, it's like this weird half measure

00:51:27   that I don't think is appropriate for iOS.

00:51:28   But it shows me that there is,

00:51:30   that it is possible to have a middle path

00:51:33   that people find at least as usable and in some aspects

00:51:37   better than the old way of dealing with files.

00:51:39   Obviously the multi-user collaboration helps tremendously

00:51:43   to, I think it bounces off the awkwardness

00:51:46   of like the people would, in the grand scheme of things,

00:51:48   people probably would rather be dealing with files and folders, but because Google does

00:51:52   so well with live multiple person editing and permissioning on documents, that makes

00:51:57   a group of people like a company who are working on files together forgive a whole bunch of

00:52:00   other things.

00:52:01   Unfortunately, I don't feel like Apple can bring that.

00:52:05   If history is shown, Apple cannot bring the seamless multi-user editing of all data types

00:52:12   with constant synchronization in the cloud, a source of truth, and blah, blah, blah, blah,

00:52:15   in the style that Google does.

00:52:16   So they have to bring something else.

00:52:20   And this is probably a bad time for me to be pondering the future of an iCloud Drive-style

00:52:27   revolution for the entirety of iOS, bringing it more in line with—enhancing its capabilities

00:52:33   by taking the shackles off and not confining to a very simple paradigm, because I just

00:52:37   got done today reading a sad tweet thread from our friend CGP Grey about his battles

00:52:43   with iCloud Drive and the amount of free spaces Mac thinks he has, and also Marco with his

00:52:48   potentially exhausted file descriptors, which may or may not be attributable to this.

00:52:52   All this is to say that, at least on the Mac, iCloud Drive is still in the doghouse as far

00:52:59   as I'm concerned, and I kind of don't relish that paradigm expanding much more until reliability

00:53:07   gets better.

00:53:08   But on iOS, I have to confess I haven't had any of those problems on iOS, and in iOS everything

00:53:13   is much more locked down and maybe it will be fine.

00:53:16   But the thing you described, Marco,

00:53:18   with the force press and the dragging onto things,

00:53:20   if, like you were talking about dragging data, right?

00:53:25   - Yeah.

00:53:26   - But if there is any kind of file picker interface,

00:53:28   some way to grab one of those documents or files

00:53:33   or whatever and bring it somewhere seems like a necessity.

00:53:37   And obviously that interface you described

00:53:39   works even better on a big screen,

00:53:41   because then you've got the second hand to swipe.

00:53:42   Like that's the whole problem with like, once you've grabbed it, quote, unquote,

00:53:45   grabbed it, what if the thing you want to drag it to isn't there because it does

00:53:49   the grid of things like then you have to do like, it's, it's the springboard

00:53:53   re-arranging problem.

00:53:53   Like when you grab a thing to rearrange springboard and it's, and you want to

00:53:56   rearrange it to a different screen, you got to drag it to the edge and hold it

00:53:58   there.

00:53:59   And it's generally, it's an operation that people find awkward and unsatisfying.

00:54:03   Whereas if you can grab it on your iPad, but with your other hand, swipe around to

00:54:08   find the thing you want to drag it on top of that works on a phone, it works less

00:54:11   well.

00:54:12   So I almost think that that interface you described, A, will almost certainly be a part

00:54:15   of a bunch of demos, even if it's not files or data, but just like, there has to be some

00:54:20   kind of grab a file and then zoom in or out to a different view and put it on something

00:54:25   else.

00:54:26   It can't just be side by side, at least I feel that way.

00:54:27   There could even be some kind of little like shelf thing to kind of temporarily hold it

00:54:30   while you use your other, while you use the same hand to pick the destination.

00:54:34   Right.

00:54:35   But I almost think that interface is actually better suited to a bigger screen.

00:54:38   It's not as though they won't do it on a smaller one.

00:54:40   In fact, they have no choice but to do it on a smaller one, because like I said, you

00:54:42   can't split it.

00:54:43   And even a shelf on a smaller one, it's like, well, an iPhone 5 or iPhone SE, whatever the

00:54:48   hell that thing is called, you're going to have room for a shelf to put?

00:54:51   I don't know.

00:54:53   But I'm kind of excited about, like I said, the coming out party of this file-based paradigm,

00:54:58   because – and I think there's also no guarantee that it will be the solution everyone seeks.

00:55:03   Obviously nerds will love it way better, but we'll see.

00:55:07   Again, with my experience with Google products,

00:55:12   nothing about them made people better

00:55:13   about dealing with files.

00:55:16   But it brought a bunch of features with it

00:55:19   that everybody loves.

00:55:20   And I guess the only improvement to the file paradigm

00:55:23   it brought with it is sharing that people seem

00:55:26   to be able to figure out, which is not true of sharing

00:55:28   in a lot of other systems, and the fact

00:55:30   that you can move things around and people's links to them

00:55:33   don't break, which is convenient.

00:55:35   I have kind of middle of the road hopes for iOS 11,

00:55:40   but I expect it to be the true star of the keynote

00:55:43   if there's no Siri tube.

00:55:45   - I would also expect some degree of redesign.

00:55:49   We've seen little rumblings here and there about this.

00:55:52   I think if you look at the conditions

00:55:56   that were right before iOS 7, so like the iOS 6 era,

00:56:01   It was a time when the system stock UI widgets

00:56:06   started looking more dated than usual,

00:56:09   and there started, like, apps started coming out

00:56:13   that people considered to be really good new design

00:56:15   that was kind of fresh and different,

00:56:17   that also was kind of converging on some similar principles.

00:56:20   So back then it was like letterpress and Vesper,

00:56:24   like these apps that were, back in the iOS 6 era,

00:56:27   that were doing flat shapes, no big textures,

00:56:32   mostly color and accent color based design,

00:56:36   things that ended up being very close to what iOS 7 was.

00:56:40   And then iOS 7 came out,

00:56:41   it was kind of like the right time for it.

00:56:43   Well I think now is the right time for a redesign,

00:56:46   not on the scale of iOS 7's redesign,

00:56:49   but maybe on the scale of when we went from iOS 5 to 6.

00:56:53   'cause remember iOS 6 was kind of a half step in a redesign.

00:56:57   Like it kind of, it got rid of a lot of the iOS 5

00:57:01   extravagance of things like textures.

00:57:02   Like certain things were flattened and toned down

00:57:04   and sanded away and things like that.

00:57:07   So I think we're gonna have that level of redesign here

00:57:10   because we can see, even if you look around,

00:57:13   even Apple's own apps, if you look at iOS 10,

00:57:16   the iOS 10 music app and Maps especially I think

00:57:20   has a different look than everything else

00:57:23   And a couple days ago, they released the WBC 2017 app.

00:57:27   - I was gonna say, isn't that the thing we always do,

00:57:29   where we all look at the WBC app and we say,

00:57:30   this is what the new iOS is gonna look like.

00:57:32   And sometimes there's an element of truth to that,

00:57:35   and other times, it's not.

00:57:37   - Right, but there are, I think we can see common elements

00:57:42   that are now considered good, fresh, new design

00:57:46   that are kind of being agreed upon or converged upon

00:57:49   that are very different from iOS 7.

00:57:51   Some examples of this would be things like

00:57:54   kind of layered sheets with rounded corners

00:57:57   instead of navigation controllers and iOS 7

00:58:01   that push big white sharp rectangles side to side.

00:58:04   Now you have these like softer rounded sheets that slide up.

00:58:08   You pull things with swipes

00:58:09   and swipes are your primary navigation often

00:58:12   for a lot of apps.

00:58:14   You move controls, you scoot them kind of in

00:58:18   away from the edges and corners so much

00:58:20   'cause they're harder to reach on big phones.

00:58:22   This is a lot of stuff I did with Overcast,

00:58:24   and the reason I did it was 'cause I saw

00:58:25   all this stuff happening, I saw this trend happening,

00:58:27   I wanted to get ahead of it.

00:58:29   You have buttons that look a little bit more like buttons.

00:58:32   Like in the WWDC app is a great example,

00:58:34   they're like, they're rounded rectangles

00:58:37   that are, they're not textured, there's a solid fill.

00:58:40   - Solid color instead of just an outline,

00:58:42   because then I went with just the text,

00:58:45   and then there was outlines around the text,

00:58:47   and now we're slowly creeping back up

00:58:49   onto the old style button where it is a solid

00:58:51   rounded rectangle with text in the middle of it.

00:58:53   - Exactly, yeah, now you just have a flat shaded filled,

00:58:57   solid filled rectangle, or rounded rect,

00:58:59   and it's with a bold color too.

00:59:01   It isn't like a subtle thing, it isn't a gray,

00:59:04   it's a bold color, and it seems like apps

00:59:07   are now kind of permitted to use more than one color

00:59:11   at a time, like the iOS 7 design was largely based upon

00:59:15   using mostly white, some thin gray lines,

00:59:19   and then you'd have one tint color,

00:59:22   and that would be like your one accent color for your app.

00:59:25   And you'd use that, so you basically had like

00:59:27   single color design, grayscale plus one color.

00:59:31   Now I think we're having multiple colors are now okay

00:59:35   to have in apps again.

00:59:37   And so, you know, again, if you look at like,

00:59:38   look at Apple Music, look at the iOS 10 Maps app,

00:59:42   and this new WBC 2017 app, and I think you see

00:59:45   this clear convergence of a refresh design language

00:59:50   that is not on the scale of iOS 7's redesign,

00:59:53   but the same or more maybe as the iOS 6 redesign was.

00:59:58   - I think you're gonna keep the,

01:00:01   I mean I guess they have to probably in some way,

01:00:02   the buttonless buttons, like even just for things

01:00:06   that are in whatever you call the top bar

01:00:07   where you hit done or you go to--

01:00:10   - Yeah, the navigate, yeah that was a big question I had

01:00:12   when writing this up, it was like,

01:00:13   what do they do with navigation bar buttons?

01:00:15   because in the iOS 6 days they would have outlines

01:00:18   and textures and I don't think that would look good here,

01:00:22   but I think that can be done well.

01:00:25   Part of the answer, honestly, might just be that

01:00:28   navigation bars are going out of style

01:00:30   and that most apps are not using these kind of sheets

01:00:33   and cards and things that are not as often

01:00:35   using navigation bars or not putting buttons there.

01:00:38   - Yeah, 'cause you can't reach that anymore.

01:00:39   - Right.

01:00:40   - But they're still gonna be in the OS.

01:00:41   I think they're going to keep them in the OS,

01:00:44   especially for legacy applications,

01:00:45   they obviously have to keep supporting them.

01:00:47   And I think they will continue to be unadorned

01:00:49   because at this point, like the bar itself serves

01:00:52   as a pretty good framing device.

01:00:55   To be, the tint color plus the bar,

01:00:58   this is one area where I think they were right,

01:00:59   makes it pretty clear that by this point,

01:01:02   if you have an iPhone for any period of time,

01:01:03   that that done thing is a button and then you can hit it

01:01:06   and you kind of have an idea of what it will do.

01:01:09   One of the most awkward elements that was added recently,

01:01:11   what was it, iOS 9, where they add the back arrow thing,

01:01:13   they jam up into the upper left corner to get you back to the previous application.

01:01:17   I would love for them to come up with a better solution for that.

01:01:19   I don't have an idea for them, but it always strikes me as the most awkward, Johnny Ive

01:01:25   painting inappropriately composed text jammed up into the corner.

01:01:30   It's like the beginning of a kernel panic.

01:01:31   Like it starts writing your screen with this tiny little thing.

01:01:34   And I appreciate the functionality.

01:01:35   Like I use it all the time.

01:01:36   It is good.

01:01:37   Although sometimes it fakes me out because sometimes I want to hit the thing that's in

01:01:40   the navigation bar underneath that thing.

01:01:42   not a fun operation to like carefully, you know, here's the thing I do, like, I go from

01:01:48   my mail application and click a link and then I'm at the Safari, the navigation thing on

01:01:52   the top says go back to mail, right? And then you're scrolling through the web page that

01:01:56   opened in Safari and you navigate and you navigate and you realize, oh, I want to go

01:01:59   back to the previous page in Safari. And yes, if you didn't have a case on your iPhone,

01:02:03   you'll probably edge swipe, but I have difficulty with that because I do have a case. So what

01:02:06   I want to do is hit the back button in Safari, which A, isn't visible right now because I've

01:02:11   right? And B, when I find a way to make it visible, is nestled snugly under the

01:02:17   back to mail link. So very frequently I go to hit the back button and instead I

01:02:21   hit the two pixels away back to mail thing and instead of going back as far I

01:02:25   go into an entirely different application and then I'm sad. So I would

01:02:29   love for them to sort that out. Speaking of, there you go, there's something they

01:02:32   could do for iOS on the phone, for small screens, sort out that mess up there

01:02:38   somehow. And if the solution is, like you said, navigation bars, the advice is don't

01:02:45   do that because people can't reach them anymore. And here are different paradigms, either just

01:02:49   edge swipes or a lower navigation bar thing or those rounded rec sheets or whatever. I'm

01:02:56   ready for that because I think that an iOS interface, best practices shift that better

01:03:05   reflects the size of phone screens these days is a little bit overdue.

01:03:10   Yeah.

01:03:11   The double tap to move things down, like it was nice that they put that there, but that's

01:03:16   another, like that little back thing, that's another like, "Well, what can we do in the

01:03:20   timeframe of this release to help people with large screens?"

01:03:22   Well, they could tap on the thing and make the screen fall down.

01:03:25   Yeah, all right.

01:03:26   Perfect.

01:03:27   Ship it.

01:03:28   That I think is the more embarrassing hack compared to the status bar back button thing.

01:03:32   - The reachability feature is so embarrassing.

01:03:35   - Honestly, I think it probably has some utility,

01:03:40   but I just never remembered that it exists.

01:03:42   The only time I remember it exists

01:03:43   is when I accidentally activate it,

01:03:45   and then I go, you know, I could probably benefit

01:03:47   from using that intentionally every once in a while,

01:03:48   but then I never, never do.

01:03:50   I don't think I've ever used it intentionally.

01:03:53   - Eventually I just disabled it.

01:03:54   There's an option in settings to disable it,

01:03:56   because I would only ever accidentally invoke it,

01:03:58   and it drove me nuts, so I just turned it off,

01:04:00   and it's been fine.

01:04:02   So anything else about iOS?

01:04:04   - We just assume 11.

01:04:06   They're just gonna keep going up with the numbers.

01:04:07   - Yeah, yeah.

01:04:08   - Somebody had an interesting theory.

01:04:10   I wanna say it was either Mike or Jason

01:04:12   that everything will go to 11 this year.

01:04:15   So it'll be Mac OS 11, iOS 11.

01:04:18   - Yeah, that was Jason.

01:04:20   I highly recommend if you haven't heard

01:04:22   by the end of this episode,

01:04:23   this like probably four hour long episode,

01:04:25   if you haven't heard enough W2C predictions,

01:04:28   I highly recommend this week's episode of Upgrade.

01:04:31   there's a lot of good stuff in there.

01:04:32   - Yeah, very much so.

01:04:33   They do a whole draft.

01:04:35   It's very funny and it's very much worth listening to.

01:04:38   I mean, the show is in general,

01:04:39   but particularly the WWDC episodes are great.

01:04:41   But anyway, yeah, going to 11.

01:04:44   - I mean, they took the numbers.

01:04:45   They took the Roman numeral off macOS

01:04:47   and I don't see why they'd put the number back on

01:04:50   at this point, you know what I mean?

01:04:52   Like iOS 11, macOS has the place names.

01:04:55   And I like the yearly flavor, the yearly flavor.

01:05:00   Honestly, it would be cool if iOS had those too.

01:05:02   I know they don't do it or whatever,

01:05:03   but it's kind of like a legacy thing for macOS

01:05:07   when it had the code names, then it had the cat names,

01:05:09   and now it's got the place names

01:05:10   and give macOS some fun stuff.

01:05:12   It had to endure this terrible capitalization

01:05:15   squished up name so it matches all their other

01:05:17   stupid OS names.

01:05:19   At the very least, continue to give it the place names

01:05:22   'cause there's lots of fun things you can do with that.

01:05:25   If they were to get rid of that

01:05:26   and just go with macOS 11 and iOS 11,

01:05:28   certainly fits with the human formity story.

01:05:29   Like I said, they want everything to be all the same

01:05:32   and look now we're synchronized,

01:05:33   but then what the hell would the 11 mean?

01:05:34   'Cause it's not the version number, I can tell you that.

01:05:36   Like, do they just bump the version number to be 11?

01:05:39   I think, I feel like they should have learned their lesson

01:05:41   when they went to, you know, from 10.9 to 10.10

01:05:44   and everyone's like version number, you know,

01:05:46   everyone's incorrect version number checks

01:05:48   in their applications got all freaked out

01:05:49   to change the first digit from 10 to 11 in the version.

01:05:53   I mean, I don't know, they didn't do it at once,

01:05:55   I suppose they can do it,

01:05:56   but it just seems like not a big marketing win

01:05:58   because 11 is more boring than like Sacramento or whatever.

01:06:02   - I think changing the first digit makes total sense.

01:06:05   And as Jason said on the upgrade,

01:06:07   if they're ever gonna do it,

01:06:09   it makes total sense to do it now

01:06:10   so it then matches the iOS version

01:06:13   for future marketing purposes.

01:06:15   And right now the first digit has been 10 for so long,

01:06:20   it's basically meaningless.

01:06:23   You can just ignore the first digit,

01:06:24   it doesn't matter at all.

01:06:25   Which kind of raises the question

01:06:26   of why even bother keeping that for,

01:06:28   It's like, what purpose is it serving,

01:06:31   just being 10 point something forever?

01:06:33   - It's making people's incorrect version number checks

01:06:35   continue to function correctly.

01:06:37   - That was a Windows thing.

01:06:38   That's why they went from eight to 10.

01:06:39   That's not a Mac thing.

01:06:40   I mean--

01:06:41   - No, on the Mac they had it when they went

01:06:42   from 10.9 to 10.10, because a lot of things

01:06:45   would interpret 10.10 as 10.1 and being less than 10.9,

01:06:47   because yeah, I mean, it's not a big deal.

01:06:49   Like, it's not gonna stop them from doing it,

01:06:51   certainly, if they feel like it,

01:06:52   especially for marketing reasons.

01:06:54   But it's, you know, I think the bigger reason

01:06:57   to not do it is because place names are more fun than numbers.

01:07:02   And haven't we all been asking, like, Mac OS, stop trying to keep pace with iOS?

01:07:06   Would it be more comfortable if you waited a little bit longer between releases and got

01:07:09   things settled because that's your role?

01:07:11   Your role is the more slow-moving one?

01:07:13   But they're not doing that.

01:07:14   They're already not doing that.

01:07:15   They're already releasing them both once a year.

01:07:16   I know, but if they make the numbers sync, then that's like saying we're signed up for,

01:07:21   you know, an unlimited number more years where every year they have to be in lockstep.

01:07:26   I don't like that.

01:07:27   - Yeah.

01:07:29   Well anyway, what else do you,

01:07:31   besides naming things aside,

01:07:32   I love that every year this discussion happens

01:07:35   about like Mac OS naming, it's always heavily discussed.

01:07:39   'Cause it is more interesting,

01:07:41   and everyone has an opinion, myself included,

01:07:42   like much more than we think we will.

01:07:44   (laughing)

01:07:45   Anyway, so let's--

01:07:46   - Yeah, we have to know what their new

01:07:47   default desktop backgrounds will be.

01:07:49   That's the most exciting part of Mac OS.

01:07:50   It's like, and it's kind of,

01:07:52   and you know, I speak as someone who wrote reviews

01:07:55   for the Mac operating system for a long time.

01:07:58   I enjoyed the visual theming and branding,

01:08:03   and on the Mac, the default desktop picture

01:08:07   is the biggest, boldest branding thing of the running OS.

01:08:12   On iOS, the best they do with branding

01:08:16   is the lock screens they show and the PR stuff,

01:08:20   and maybe the selections of the springboard backgrounds,

01:08:23   but they're always much more hidden.

01:08:25   If you see a Mac desktop of it, like a newly booted Mac,

01:08:29   even if it has a few windows open,

01:08:31   the desktop background is so dominant,

01:08:33   whereas the springboard background is much less dominant.

01:08:35   So there's not much in iOS to massively brand the OS

01:08:40   outside of the widgets themselves

01:08:42   and the UI and stuff like that.

01:08:43   So I do enjoy, like you're making a joke,

01:08:46   like, oh, who cares what the default desktop background

01:08:49   is in the Mac?

01:08:50   That's a big part of the excitement

01:08:52   of a new version of the Mac operating system for me.

01:08:54   I don't know if I'm an anomaly,

01:08:55   but like the big posters they put up

01:08:57   with whatever the theme is or the big waves from Mavericks

01:08:59   and the cool pictures of Yosemite.

01:09:02   And I like that stuff.

01:09:04   And in the absence of them,

01:09:06   particularly changing the Mac UI,

01:09:08   which doesn't seem like they're interested in these days,

01:09:11   all we get is a cool name and a cool desktop picture.

01:09:14   And sometimes that's enough to make an association

01:09:17   of my mind that I will link those images

01:09:20   and that branding and that sort of mood and theme

01:09:22   with whatever features they add,

01:09:24   whether they be, oh, this is the one that had Siri,

01:09:26   or this is the one where they added Spotlight,

01:09:28   or this is the one that had Time Machine,

01:09:29   or this year, this is the one with the new Fosse system

01:09:31   that they won't even mention in the keynote, so.

01:09:33   (laughing)

01:09:34   - So that leads into my next point here on macOS,

01:09:38   which is, you know, first of all,

01:09:40   I think we all assume, based on how they did iOS's rollout

01:09:43   and their promises last year,

01:09:45   that APFS is most likely going to ship

01:09:48   with whatever the next version of macOS is,

01:09:51   and I would even say most likely even the default,

01:09:54   and I would go a little bit further and say,

01:09:56   what if it's the only option?

01:09:58   What if you have to convert your boot drive?

01:10:01   Other drives you can probably do whatever you want,

01:10:02   but what if you have to convert your boot drive

01:10:05   to APFS upon installation?

01:10:07   - I think that won't be that big of a deal,

01:10:10   because A, we know they can do it really, really well,

01:10:13   so that, it's not like it's gonna trash people's data,

01:10:16   And of all the things be like a boot drive,

01:10:18   the only time that messes with you

01:10:20   is if you frequently use target disk mode, right?

01:10:23   Because every other way that that disk is read,

01:10:27   you don't have to worry that it's not HFS+ anymore.

01:10:29   Target disk mode, all of a sudden your other Macs

01:10:31   can't read it anymore if they're not upgraded as well.

01:10:34   But if you're sharing it, like it's SMB or whatever,

01:10:37   like it's not, it doesn't matter what format it is.

01:10:39   And so I think that's a reasonable thing to do.

01:10:42   I'm just wondering like what would be the advantage, right?

01:10:44   Oh, this operating system doesn't have to run HFS+.

01:10:48   Maybe if there's some kind of headlining feature

01:10:50   that demands APFS, like the newly rejiggered version

01:10:53   of Time Machine that's like way more efficient and stuff,

01:10:56   but they have an old version of Time Machine

01:10:58   that works with HFS+, I don't know.

01:11:01   Personally, I don't think there's gonna be

01:11:03   the fancy new version of Time Machine

01:11:05   that works with APFS yet anyway,

01:11:07   so I think this is not the year for forcing,

01:11:09   unless there's some other feature that I'm not thinking of,

01:11:11   of forcing the boot volume to be APFS.

01:11:14   I think they could do it, but I'm looking for a reason why they would want to do that.

01:11:22   Maybe simplicity.

01:11:23   Again, with all the Mac things, I just feel like, do they care enough about the Mac to

01:11:27   be that aggressive with the advancement of the platform?

01:11:30   Or were they just, this is one area where they will take a slower pace.

01:11:33   This year, APFS rollout, a couple new features that are based on it.

01:11:36   Next year, if we're lucky, the new version of Time Machine that takes advantage of all

01:11:40   the cool stuff.

01:11:41   Right?

01:11:42   I have a hard time gauging how much of a big deal

01:11:47   Mac OS is gonna be this year.

01:11:48   There's a whole bunch of things that the Mac could,

01:11:53   if they're gonna be putting more effort into the Mac

01:11:55   than they have been recently,

01:11:56   there are areas that could be really cool.

01:12:00   Things like a new time machine

01:12:01   based on APFS snapshots and everything.

01:12:04   And that's incredibly powerful.

01:12:06   The things you can do by having a snapshot-based

01:12:08   time machine, and there's two.

01:12:11   you can do not only the external drive backup,

01:12:13   but even just giving Snapshot support

01:12:16   to the internal time machine,

01:12:18   like the time machine on its own drive kind of thing,

01:12:20   like kind of like mini time machine.

01:12:21   - So they can get rid of the terrible local time machine hack

01:12:24   that we all have running on our Mac laptops

01:12:26   whether we know it or not,

01:12:27   which is, in my experience, extremely unreliable

01:12:30   and yet still there grinding away

01:12:31   trying to do something useful for you

01:12:33   and it's just like, oh, just please stop,

01:12:34   and you can't turn it off, yes I know.

01:12:36   - Exactly, there's all this cruft in Mac OS

01:12:40   because of having to do these advanced features on HFS Plus,

01:12:44   that if they just make APFS the only option

01:12:47   that just your boot drive automatically gets converted

01:12:49   when you install the next Mac OS,

01:12:53   which is exactly what they did with iOS,

01:12:55   then they could stop supporting

01:12:58   a whole lot of that legacy stuff.

01:13:00   It would be much better for their efforts

01:13:03   to bring the APFS features forward

01:13:05   if they knew the OS was only running on APFS.

01:13:08   So I think it's plausible.

01:13:10   But they still have to support all HFS+ anyway,

01:13:12   because you can time machine back up external volumes

01:13:15   and they're going to be HFS+ and so on and so forth.

01:13:17   So it's not like they can get rid of all the legacy

01:13:19   cruft code anytime soon.

01:13:20   That's why I'm thinking of, well,

01:13:22   what if there's a feature that they just--

01:13:23   like they wouldn't want to have a feature that says,

01:13:25   oh, let's demo this awesome new feature,

01:13:26   say it's the new time machine.

01:13:28   And also have to say, oh, and you can only

01:13:30   use this feature if you convert your boot volume.

01:13:32   That's the case where they would say,

01:13:34   A, they probably wouldn't even mention it,

01:13:35   but B, it would convert your boot volume no matter what.

01:13:38   But even in that case, they still have to support the old crap way of Time Machine,

01:13:42   because people, I have external drives that I backup through Time Machine, and they're

01:13:45   HFS+ and asking people to, you know, not asking, but forcibly upgrading their boot drive as

01:13:51   part of the upgrade process like they did in iOS, you could swing that.

01:13:55   Telling them, "Oh, and by the way, you also have to convert all your external drives,"

01:13:58   not gonna happen.

01:13:59   - Yeah, maybe.

01:14:00   I'm still optimistic that they might require it on the boot drive, though.

01:14:04   But anyway.

01:14:05   - That's a question for me for PredictionWise.

01:14:07   - Do you think the letters APFS in that order,

01:14:10   all capitals will appear on any slide

01:14:12   or be spoken by any presenter?

01:14:13   I guess it'll be spoken in passing maybe.

01:14:15   - Yes.

01:14:16   - But will it appear on a slide?

01:14:17   - Yes, absolutely.

01:14:18   Worst case scenario, it'll appear on the word cloud slide.

01:14:21   - Yeah, it is.

01:14:22   I mean, obviously in the state of the union and stuff

01:14:23   would be, I'm trying to think of the keynote.

01:14:24   Does it make, 'cause it didn't make the keynote last year

01:14:27   and that's when it was introduced.

01:14:28   Remember, we found out about it when we left the building

01:14:30   and it was like, oh, and by the way, APFS.

01:14:31   Like what?

01:14:32   - I remember that moment very specifically, yes.

01:14:34   - I remember it too.

01:14:35   But the fact that it didn't make the keynote, not good enough for the keynote, sorry, replacing

01:14:42   a 15-year-old, 19-year-old, depending on how you trace it back to HFS file system, not important.

01:14:50   It made the State of the Union, and it totally will this time too, and there'll be sessions

01:14:53   about it, and I'll be all happy and everything.

01:14:55   But I really, that's, speaking of hopes and dreams, give me this one.

01:14:59   - We'll talk about APFS, at least in passing,

01:15:03   during the Mac section of the VRC keynote.

01:15:05   You hear that, Craig?

01:15:06   Make it happen.

01:15:07   - Do you, so here's a long shot.

01:15:10   There was a thing that I think ATP Tipster told us

01:15:14   forever ago that was like being considered,

01:15:16   and I haven't heard a thing about it since,

01:15:18   so it probably isn't happening.

01:15:19   Long shot though, do you think they would offer

01:15:22   iCloud Time Machine as an online backup?

01:15:26   And so one reason I think they might,

01:15:29   besides the fact that they now would have

01:15:31   the technical infrastructure with APFS

01:15:34   to reasonably do it, I think one of the themes

01:15:39   that I expect to see here is Apple pushing people

01:15:42   even harder into subscribing to iCloud data plans,

01:15:47   and into buying more iCloud storage space,

01:15:50   giving more and more compelling reasons

01:15:52   for people to start paying Apple three, five,

01:15:55   or $20 a month for this iCloud storage space because there's going to be more and more

01:15:59   features that can use it. iCloud Time Machine would use a ton of it. So what if they did

01:16:05   that?

01:16:06   Well, they're totally going to do that. It's just a question of whether it's this year

01:16:08   or not. And speaking of Apple services, I think, I mean, we still always complain about

01:16:12   their pricing and how they're sometimes competitive, sometimes not, depending on the year, depending

01:16:17   on the thing you're looking at, depending on how you're measuring it. But I've always

01:16:20   felt like the Apple way to do things, and we mentioned this many times in the context

01:16:22   of iOS, and now I think of it again in the context of iCloud Time Machine, is not to

01:16:28   buy an amount of space, because that's a techie nerd thing and people don't like to think

01:16:32   about that, especially because it's like more price, you know, higher price for more, but

01:16:36   to sell a backup my Mac plan, right?

01:16:41   Like I mean, you know, like backblaze or any of these other things too.

01:16:43   Like you don't buy based on space, you buy based on I want to backup this Mac.

01:16:48   Like you buy like a membership in a club,

01:16:50   and then you break the association between,

01:16:53   like Apple loves to do,

01:16:54   break the association between the dollar amount and a spec.

01:16:58   The dollar amount and storage space.

01:17:00   And now it's the dollar amount and a result.

01:17:03   And the result is your Mac is part

01:17:05   of the iCloud backup club.

01:17:06   And just like your phone is backed up to the cloud,

01:17:08   your Mac is backed up.

01:17:09   Obviously the phone has the same problem

01:17:11   that you buy storage space and people run out of it

01:17:12   and they freak out.

01:17:13   And we've talked about this a million times.

01:17:14   If Apple's gonna charge more than everybody else,

01:17:16   way to hide that extra cost is to, I mean, essentially like go unlimited, but not really.

01:17:22   Like to make it, to make it that you're buying the result and obviously how much storage

01:17:27   space you would use would be based on the size of your, your, your boot drive or your

01:17:32   device or they're like, obviously there would be a limit and you know what I mean? But like

01:17:36   to frame it in that way, or maybe it doesn't have to be a way, honestly, if backblaze can

01:17:39   do it, why the hell can't Apple, right?

01:17:41   - Can't is very different than won't.

01:17:44   - Yeah, anyway, iCloud Time Machine has to come.

01:17:48   I don't know if local Time Machine is even coming this year,

01:17:53   let alone Cloud Time Machine.

01:17:54   I think that is entirely a matter of,

01:17:58   because they could have done that years ago,

01:17:59   like they could have done it badly,

01:18:00   but like, you know, they did it on the phones with HFS Plus,

01:18:03   and obviously on the phones it's easier

01:18:04   because you know exactly what you need to back up

01:18:06   and you can discard lots of stuff

01:18:06   because you can get it from the store

01:18:08   and yada, yada, yada.

01:18:10   But Apple loves services, and you're right,

01:18:11   this is a way to charge more for services,

01:18:13   and they have the technical underpinnings

01:18:15   to do a much better job of this.

01:18:17   So it's only a matter of time and a matter of, you know,

01:18:19   how much attention is the Mac getting?

01:18:21   - Yeah, I really do think that what Apple wants,

01:18:24   and what, you know, they're pushing

01:18:26   for more and more services revenue, obviously.

01:18:29   It's the, it's an area of growth that they can use

01:18:32   that is probably easier to achieve

01:18:34   than some of the other areas of growth to maintain,

01:18:37   just the different scales and everything.

01:18:39   So they're gonna be pushing this heavily,

01:18:40   as they have been the last couple years.

01:18:42   I expect in general, I expect there to be things like

01:18:45   very, very heavy pushes towards subscribing to Apple Music.

01:18:48   That's gonna be a big one.

01:18:49   And I think iCloud Drive, or just iCloud Storage,

01:18:53   is going to be one of those things too.

01:18:55   Basically, my theory is that

01:18:57   within probably the next few years,

01:18:59   Apple wants to try to make it so that

01:19:02   using an iPhone or Mac or any Apple device

01:19:06   without having a decent amount of iCloud storage space

01:19:09   that you're paying for every month,

01:19:11   should feel like using it without an Apple ID.

01:19:14   Like there should be like all this stuff

01:19:15   that you're missing out on by not paying Apple

01:19:18   five or 10 bucks a month for this additional storage.

01:19:21   That's where I think they wanna push this,

01:19:22   and I think they will.

01:19:24   And it's not like purely cynical,

01:19:25   there's lots of great things they can offer

01:19:27   once you do that.

01:19:29   But I do think there's certainly a big motivation there

01:19:32   to increase that services revenue,

01:19:34   and that's gonna be one of the ways they do it,

01:19:36   that happens to correspond to things

01:19:37   that are also nice for users.

01:19:39   - My stretch hope and dream for macOS

01:19:42   before we leave this topic is,

01:19:44   I laugh thinking about this,

01:19:46   but an announcement of vastly improved 3D API support,

01:19:51   whether that be OpenGL, Vulkan, or whatever,

01:19:53   like an inexplicable announcement

01:19:55   because they wouldn't have any hardware associated with it.

01:19:57   It'd be like, why?

01:19:58   All right, that's great,

01:19:59   but like, no one games on a Mac

01:20:01   and all your GPUs are really weak.

01:20:02   Why are you touting your improved OpenGL support,

01:20:06   like that you're caught up with the spec and that you're like--

01:20:09   and we would know the answer is like,

01:20:10   there's another shoe that's going to drop,

01:20:12   but it's called the Mac Pro that they're going to make someday,

01:20:13   and maybe it'll have awesome GPUs, right?

01:20:16   No, not DirectX for Mac OS.

01:20:18   Blammer in the chat.

01:20:20   I would be excited by that, because it's an area where

01:20:23   they are super behind, and they've been paying attention

01:20:25   to Metal, and you know, like--

01:20:29   I don't know.

01:20:30   I don't predict it.

01:20:31   but I would be super excited about that.

01:20:34   - So I have a couple of stretch goals.

01:20:37   I mean, first of all, we should,

01:20:38   before we leave the more plausible section,

01:20:40   we should also cover that I think the rumored

01:20:45   iPad Pro drawing tablet mode is realistic

01:20:49   and plausible for this year's release.

01:20:51   - Oh, you're lumping that in with Mac OS

01:20:53   instead of the iPad, I suppose.

01:20:54   - Yeah, it's really a Mac OS feature.

01:20:56   The idea behind this feature, as rumored,

01:20:58   is that an iPad Pro with a pencil could be attached

01:21:03   in some, I don't know if it's only gonna be working

01:21:05   over a wire or whether they can do it wirelessly,

01:21:08   but can-- - They'll be able

01:21:09   to do it wirelessly. - Hopefully.

01:21:11   But basically, they can enter a mode where a Mac app

01:21:14   can use the iPad and its pencil

01:21:17   as a stylus surface of some kind.

01:21:20   And we don't really know anything more than that,

01:21:21   or whether this is even in for this year or not.

01:21:24   But I think the way they would probably do this,

01:21:27   if they're going to do this, would not just be

01:21:30   that it would be like a second screen

01:21:33   that you could just move windows onto, no.

01:21:35   I think it would be more like the way they did the touch bar

01:21:38   which is it would be a separate type of output display,

01:21:43   slash input display, that apps would have to specifically

01:21:46   write support for so that they would specifically say

01:21:49   what would be shown on it and specifically receive

01:21:52   the events from the pencil from it.

01:21:54   So it would, if they do it that way,

01:21:57   I think it's a much nicer feature.

01:21:58   I think it's better.

01:21:59   And it would have slower adoption

01:22:01   if you have to wait for all the apps

01:22:02   that could benefit from this to integrate

01:22:05   this potential new API, just like the touch bar.

01:22:09   But I think if that works out,

01:22:12   that could be a way better way to do it,

01:22:14   and that's probably the way

01:22:15   that they would do such a feature.

01:22:17   - Yeah, like everyone's talking about it

01:22:18   as the single phrase for this feature is,

01:22:22   oh, you can use your iPad as a Cintiq,

01:22:23   but a Cintiq behaves as essentially a monitor

01:22:26   that you can draw in.

01:22:27   Like it appears as a second monitor,

01:22:28   you can arrange it with the other monitor.

01:22:30   The full UI of your Mac can be there.

01:22:32   You can drag the little menu bar down to it

01:22:33   so that it is actually your primary display.

01:22:35   But that's not how you just described

01:22:40   this feature working on the iPad.

01:22:41   That it wouldn't just be,

01:22:42   'cause there are apps now you can get for your iPad

01:22:43   that do this.

01:22:44   Like, oh, your iPad is a second screen from your Mac

01:22:46   and now you can draw in your drawing app with the stylus

01:22:49   because of course it's a second screen and you have input.

01:22:51   This seems like a more,

01:22:53   the rumors are a lot of a more targeted interface.

01:22:56   like you said, like the touch bar,

01:22:57   that is specifically addressable by the applications.

01:22:59   It is not just like, hey, every application gets this free

01:23:01   'cause it's just a second small screen,

01:23:02   which they could also do as a mode or whatever,

01:23:05   but to really, to leverage their,

01:23:09   the capabilities of the high refresh rate

01:23:12   and the stylus input and all that other stuff,

01:23:14   it seems to me that it has,

01:23:16   is it a better solution to have apps support it

01:23:20   specifically in the same way they support the touch bar,

01:23:22   to be able to draw a UI over there

01:23:24   and to be able to have the iPad handle a lot of the drawing,

01:23:29   you know, the local drawing to make it as responsive

01:23:33   as we know the pencil can be in the good applications,

01:23:36   having that collaborate with the Mac app.

01:23:38   And it could be good and it will make people's iPads,

01:23:41   you know, more powerful and capable,

01:23:43   but not that I'm gonna say this reminds me of the old world,

01:23:47   but I think of that arrangement and it seems cool

01:23:50   and useful and a great way to leverage Apple's existing

01:23:52   hardware with a clever software solution,

01:23:54   but then I think of the Microsoft Surface Studio

01:23:56   sitting over there, kinda glaring at me,

01:23:58   gone, you know, tapping its fingers,

01:24:00   going, you know, hello, guys,

01:24:03   I don't know what you're doing over there

01:24:04   with your multiple devices and your steampunk windows,

01:24:07   but here I am, a giant screen,

01:24:10   touch me, draw on me, and put me up, no, anyway, yeah.

01:24:15   - I don't understand why this is something that people want.

01:24:18   Like, I mean, for like artists and stuff, I guess,

01:24:21   But why would a regular Shmo want their iPad Pro

01:24:24   as like a Wacom tablet for their computer?

01:24:27   - Yeah, as far as, I mean, in this way we're describing it,

01:24:32   yes, totally for artists,

01:24:33   because Cintiqs are super expensive and I have one,

01:24:37   they're not that great, like they're okay.

01:24:40   If you already have an iPad with a stylus

01:24:43   and you like drawing on it,

01:24:45   but you also like Adobe Illustrator,

01:24:47   the full version of which does not,

01:24:48   or Photoshop or whatever,

01:24:49   doesn't ship for iOS, just these cut down versions.

01:24:52   This is an interesting solution to the pro app problem.

01:24:56   To get more people to buy iPads to use with their Macs

01:24:58   that they might buy anyway,

01:24:59   but this pushes them over the edge.

01:25:01   Because if it doesn't work as a second monitor,

01:25:03   like a Cintiq, I don't see people buying it

01:25:06   as a way to use your Mac through a stylus.

01:25:08   And again, there are iOS apps you can buy today

01:25:11   to remotely use your Mac,

01:25:12   to use your iPad as a second screen,

01:25:14   to use your iPad as a Cintiq-like device for your Mac.

01:25:19   presumably when Apple invoents it, they will do it a better job because they have, you know, low-level access to all that good stuff.

01:25:25   And so that's what people are waiting for. And it is narrow, but like, in terms of, you know, the potential/promised focus on pros,

01:25:35   both with iOS 11 and making iOS more capable on the big iPads and the Mac Pro,

01:25:40   this seems like a move that is aimed towards creative pros and app developers who think they can make a cool application with this capability

01:25:48   and think they can sell it for a fair price

01:25:50   in the app store.

01:25:51   - Just seems to me like it would be a lot of investment

01:25:54   for not a lot of return.

01:25:56   I don't know, maybe I'm missing the boat.

01:25:57   - It's not that much investment though, like I said.

01:25:59   I feel like they're almost there with the,

01:26:01   third parties can do it, the plumbing must be there,

01:26:04   Apple's just gonna do the better lower latency job of it

01:26:07   and have an opinion about how it should be done

01:26:11   in terms of APIs and stuff like that.

01:26:12   - I think it could be really cool too.

01:26:13   I mean, if you think about,

01:26:15   obviously there's lots of artistic uses for this

01:26:17   and I wouldn't use any of those.

01:26:20   - Oh, you wanna use that audio, I see it coming.

01:26:23   - Well, obviously I would consider, I would try that,

01:26:25   but I think there's a lot of areas of common tasks

01:26:29   that people do that could benefit from

01:26:33   being able to quickly alternate between pen input,

01:26:37   especially really good pen input like this,

01:26:39   like the iPad Pro, really good pen input,

01:26:41   and also a keyboard and mouse,

01:26:43   and to be able to kinda alternate between

01:26:47   having that incredibly awesome pen thing

01:26:50   that only has been available directly in iOS so far,

01:26:53   but also integrated with Mac workflows.

01:26:56   That could apply to lots of things.

01:26:58   That could be as simple as like,

01:27:00   if I'm working in Apple Notes, which I really like Notes.

01:27:03   I've been using it more and more,

01:27:05   and I did have one problem a couple months ago

01:27:08   where like one device just wouldn't sync,

01:27:10   and it just was stuck for a long time,

01:27:13   and I tried a bunch of crap,

01:27:13   and eventually it started syncing again,

01:27:15   And I've heard a few other people

01:27:16   who've had similar problems.

01:27:18   So that's a little concerning.

01:27:19   I hope Apple works it out. - Corrupt note

01:27:21   that you must hunt down and expunge.

01:27:22   - Right, exactly, yes, who knows.

01:27:24   But one of the things Notes has is you can integrate

01:27:27   doodles and drawings with the pencil and everything.

01:27:30   And so right now if I want a note to contain a drawing,

01:27:34   I have to go over to my iPad and add it there.

01:27:37   But if I'm working on my Mac,

01:27:39   that's kind of not convenient.

01:27:41   But if I was working in,

01:27:44   If I had this and my iPad was on my desk,

01:27:47   I could just reach over, doodle something,

01:27:49   and then just put my hands right back on the Mac keyboard

01:27:52   and go right back to work on the Mac,

01:27:53   not have to wait for a sync to happen

01:27:54   but up and down to the cloud and everything else.

01:27:56   I'd be working in the document right here.

01:27:58   Stuff like that.

01:27:59   I think there's a lot of potential workflows,

01:28:02   whether it's basic things like doodling

01:28:04   or annotation, marking up documents.

01:28:06   There's so many different things

01:28:08   that aren't just freehand drawing in Photoshop

01:28:11   where this could be really helpful.

01:28:13   Not to mention the freehand drawing in Photoshop,

01:28:16   or even things like if you're drawing something

01:28:18   in Illustrator, in a vector program,

01:28:20   where you're doing less freehand stuff,

01:28:22   and more kind of like drawing with math and parameters,

01:28:25   but you do wanna add a freehand element to something.

01:28:28   It's easy to just add that,

01:28:29   and then go back to your keyboard and mouse

01:28:31   for all the precise stuff.

01:28:32   And this all might not happen,

01:28:36   'cause this all depends on lots of good, high-quality,

01:28:39   third-party integration happening,

01:28:41   and that's always a crap sheet.

01:28:42   You never know what developers will take advantage of

01:28:45   and how soon and how well.

01:28:47   But there's a lot of potential for this kind of feature.

01:28:50   So if it isn't a massive deal for Apple to add this,

01:28:53   if it's not like a huge three year undertaking

01:28:56   where they can do nothing else,

01:28:57   this would be nice to have, yes.

01:28:58   And it's something that, you know,

01:29:01   I think features that can really change

01:29:05   the way people work on the Mac

01:29:07   are hard to come by these days.

01:29:09   So I think when they come by them,

01:29:10   there's actually a decent chance,

01:29:13   as long as there's not massive downsides,

01:29:15   they actually might consider doing them.

01:29:16   So this I consider plausible,

01:29:19   and if they actually do it,

01:29:21   I think it could be really cool.

01:29:23   - They haven't had a good Adobe Mac app demo

01:29:26   at a keynote in a really long time.

01:29:28   That's the old world.

01:29:29   Wouldn't it be nice to come back to the old days

01:29:31   and have a Photoshop demo on a Mac,

01:29:34   granted with an iOS device, fine.

01:29:35   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:29:37   Win some, you lose some.

01:29:39   I should run some filters and time them.

01:29:41   - Now I do have two stretch goals.

01:29:43   You had one for the Mac, I have two.

01:29:45   Because it goes back to my earlier question of like,

01:29:48   I don't know how much effort they put

01:29:50   into the Mac this year.

01:29:51   Like if they put in a good amount,

01:29:53   these are actually kind of plausible.

01:29:55   But that's, you know, with the Mac you never really know

01:29:58   whether it's gonna be a, not even a big year,

01:30:01   a medium size year or a small year, let's be honest.

01:30:03   And so I think my number one stretch goal

01:30:07   is the beginning of the iTunes replacement.

01:30:11   Now I'm not sure it would be complete.

01:30:13   - Oh, you're getting greedy.

01:30:14   - I know. - Getting greedy.

01:30:15   - I'm not sure it would be complete in one pass.

01:30:17   It would probably not be.

01:30:19   But I'm thinking we would probably start seeing apps

01:30:24   with new names that maybe the idea that the iTunes--

01:30:28   - Music.

01:30:29   - Yeah, that the iTunes app would still exist.

01:30:32   But it would be in utilities or buried somewhere.

01:30:34   And then, so like if you plugged in an iPod, okay,

01:30:37   here's your ancient app for your ancient device that--

01:30:40   - It would be the iPod app, a second app called iPhone.

01:30:43   (laughing)

01:30:44   It's gonna be the worst.

01:30:45   - Yeah, but I think it's plausible this year,

01:30:48   I wouldn't say likely, but plausible

01:30:51   that we have an Apple Music app on the Mac.

01:30:55   And what that is is up in the air.

01:30:57   That could be, it could literally be,

01:31:00   like as the first version, it could be a fork

01:31:03   and rename of iTunes with just the music stuff enabled

01:31:06   and everything else stripped out.

01:31:07   - And then mask everything else, all the code is still there

01:31:09   the preference dialogue is still modal

01:31:10   but the app is now called music.

01:31:12   - It's an if def at the top.

01:31:13   So it could be as simple as that

01:31:17   or it could be a total from scratch app

01:31:20   that only does Apple Music.

01:31:22   So it would only have the Apple Music streaming service.

01:31:25   It would not have local library playback

01:31:27   or even the iTunes store

01:31:29   'cause that's not Apple Music, that's different.

01:31:31   - And it would be a port of the iOS Apple Music app

01:31:33   Don't forget that, it would use UXKit for everything, right?

01:31:35   It's like photo is all over again.

01:31:37   - Honestly, I had that on my list.

01:31:39   (laughing)

01:31:40   Because if you think about it,

01:31:42   one of the reasons why it would be hard

01:31:44   to do this all in one year is that

01:31:47   if they don't want it to just be Apple Music,

01:31:49   if they want it to be Apple Music

01:31:52   plus local library support plus store support,

01:31:55   they would probably do one of those weird

01:31:57   like iOS port kind of apps to the Mac

01:32:00   where it would be kind of weirdly IOS-y.

01:32:02   Maybe it would use UXKit or maybe it would use

01:32:04   its own version of that 'cause that might just be

01:32:05   for the photos team, who knows.

01:32:07   It would be weirdly limited, it wouldn't feel very Mac-like,

01:32:10   but it could be an Apple Music app.

01:32:13   And I think that goes along with,

01:32:14   obviously they'd have a video app or TV for the Mac.

01:32:18   They'd have the TV app obviously, duh.

01:32:20   Why did I think of that?

01:32:21   Anyway, and then also the iTunes podcasts

01:32:25   were recently renamed to Apple Podcasts.

01:32:28   So maybe there would be an Apple Podcast app on the Mac.

01:32:30   So this stuff all makes sense.

01:32:33   It's very aggressive to have all this planned for this year,

01:32:36   which is why this was my stretch goal.

01:32:38   I don't, again, I wouldn't say it's likely,

01:32:41   but I do think it's plausible,

01:32:43   and I do think that it is something they will get to.

01:32:47   I just don't know when.

01:32:49   - Sometimes I think about the sort of

01:32:52   concentrated political capital

01:32:54   that must be in the iTunes team app.

01:32:57   because there's gotta be a lot of important people

01:33:01   associated with their product at the high and low levels.

01:33:03   At various times in Apple's history,

01:33:04   it was arguably the most important product

01:33:07   that Apple was currently making and had ever made,

01:33:10   like in the heyday of the iPod and everything,

01:33:11   like iTunes was where it was all happening.

01:33:13   And then it managed to hitch a ride

01:33:15   on the iPhone rocket a little bit.

01:33:18   But the fact that it has remained so long

01:33:20   and that every year it gets these,

01:33:22   it gets so much more attention

01:33:25   then the improvements that are actually made by this attention seem to warrant.

01:33:29   Like year after year, "Oh, we've moved stuff around and we've changed the UI but fundamentally

01:33:33   have not fixed this application."

01:33:34   It's like, there must be people working on it, and every year they have new things that

01:33:38   they do, and not small things, they have big new ideas about how the UI can be different,

01:33:45   and apparently this year they think the mini-player should be not so mini anymore, and it's just

01:33:49   always something, but the preference dialogue is still modal and it's still old iTunes,

01:33:53   and you just, like, what is, there must be such a concentration of power there, that

01:33:58   they, that, like, power and, like, the power to make these people continue to add features

01:34:04   combined with the neglect to say we don't care enough to make you do all those things

01:34:08   that Marco just said that are inevitable, but, like, we always wait for the first one

01:34:12   to come. So the only one of those things I will believe is that an Apple Music app is

01:34:16   the closest to not being a stretch goal, but all those other things, like, I don't even

01:34:21   Well, you know, I don't really understand how we could have somebody with a media app

01:34:29   or a group of people with a media app pay so little attention to the Mac after years.

01:34:33   Imagine being in a position where you have a media app and you just completely ignore

01:34:39   the Mac.

01:34:40   I mean, Marco, how could one ever get in that position?

01:34:43   What would their headspace have to be to just completely neglect the Mac for a media-based

01:34:49   application?

01:34:50   people who know AppKit though. Like, that is key. Like, they're not going, "Oh, AppKit,

01:34:54   I'm scared. It's not like UIKit."

01:34:56   You could have stopped that sentence at "Apple has people."

01:34:58   Yeah.

01:34:59   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:35:00   "Apple has a staff of more than one developer."

01:35:03   Well, haven't you heard? You can charge way more for your Mac app.

01:35:06   Oh, yeah. Yeah, why don't you ask the other Mac podcast players how well they're doing?

01:35:10   Oh, yeah.

01:35:11   It's a booming market.

01:35:12   Casey will just have to pull a Twitter reference for the Mac and just, you know, spend an obscene

01:35:16   amount of money for his copy. Kickstarted, right?

01:35:19   Yeah.

01:35:20   truth be told I actually don't really need it as much anymore because I've just been

01:35:23   using my AirPods to connect to whatever device I need to connect to. So when I listen to

01:35:28   podcasts, I connect to my phone. But in principle, we have to all agree that there is some amount

01:35:34   of humor to Marco lamenting iTunes as Overcast for the Mac is simply a URL.

01:35:40   Not much because, again, Marco is not the world's largest corporation, so let's just

01:35:43   keep that in mind. Fair, fair.

01:35:45   Now, if you wanna talk about stretch goals,

01:35:48   I have the mother of all stretch goals.

01:35:49   This is probably--

01:35:51   - A Mac Pro?

01:35:52   - No, I think the Mac Pro being released

01:35:56   is more likely than this, but I have it on here.

01:35:59   - This is gonna be good.

01:36:00   - In the realm of fantasy now.

01:36:02   - My number two stretch goal,

01:36:03   my final stretch goal for Mac OS is

01:36:06   significant improvements to the Mac App Store

01:36:09   and sandboxing.

01:36:11   (laughing)

01:36:13   - Okay, sure.

01:36:14   - Sure.

01:36:15   - So here's, okay so, okay so just brief background.

01:36:21   So both the Mac App Store and Sandboxing launched in 2011.

01:36:27   I had to look it up, this was so long ago, 2011.

01:36:30   They had a ton of shortcomings.

01:36:33   It was really like, they were both the App Store

01:36:36   and Sandboxing were really very, very rough 1.0s.

01:36:42   and they have been completely untouched since.

01:36:45   They have been a rough 1.0 for six years.

01:36:49   And so I actually did hear rumblings

01:36:55   of a little while back that there was an effort

01:36:58   to actually rewrite the Mac App Store app

01:37:00   and to really improve it.

01:37:02   And we've seen, ever since Phil took over the App Store,

01:37:05   there really has been substantial progress.

01:37:09   And there were some before that,

01:37:10   Now there's a lot of progress in the app stores.

01:37:13   And I still think this is a very long shot for this year.

01:37:17   I do think it is probably finally on the road map.

01:37:20   I think somebody is finally working on this.

01:37:21   The only question is when it comes out.

01:37:23   - Are they racing the iTunes replacement team,

01:37:25   those two teams?

01:37:26   (laughing)

01:37:28   I mean, honestly, the Mac App Store has a long way to go

01:37:30   before it earns the stripes that iTunes have

01:37:33   in terms of being the crusty old application

01:37:35   that you can't get rid of on the system

01:37:36   because it's essential but that is,

01:37:38   I mean, I guess iTunes does improve.

01:37:40   Like, I laughed before, but does it?

01:37:42   I think, I mean, the Mac App Store app has been improved

01:37:46   in ways that are not visible to users.

01:37:48   Like, I believe that they have addressed reliability

01:37:50   under the covers to make it not as awful as it was.

01:37:52   - They haven't.

01:37:54   - I mean, it is still buggy.

01:37:56   I totally grant you that, but I have to think that

01:37:59   there has, even if it's just messing with the demons

01:38:01   that are underlying the thing,

01:38:03   'cause the Mac App Store is this strange application

01:38:05   like so many of these cloud powered things

01:38:06   where it's really just a thin, partially web-based UI

01:38:11   on top of a bunch of persistent processes

01:38:13   that are running whether the App Store is launched or not,

01:38:15   which is why you can click the update thing

01:38:17   to update your things or install an application,

01:38:18   then quit the Mac App Store app

01:38:20   and your installation proceeds,

01:38:21   because it's not your app that's doing it,

01:38:22   it's just communicating to background demons,

01:38:24   and I feel like that--

01:38:25   - Also, why you clicked that update button,

01:38:26   and just nothing happens.

01:38:28   - Yeah, well, that's just-- - Just nothing happens.

01:38:31   - But I think the reliability of it

01:38:32   actually communicating to the background demons

01:38:34   and telling them to do their thing

01:38:35   has improved over time.

01:38:37   But I think it is plausible for them to do an iTunes style

01:38:42   refresh, where you aren't fundamentally changing

01:38:44   the nature of the application in any way,

01:38:46   but you moved a bunch of crap around and recolored some things.

01:38:49   Or maybe you add tab support and just say,

01:38:51   look, significant improvements to Mac App Store,

01:38:53   which I think does not fall into the category of significant

01:38:56   as far as I'm concerned.

01:38:56   Because like I said, it's an iTunes style update,

01:38:58   where it visually looks different,

01:39:00   and people think it's the new Mac App Store.

01:39:02   But fundamentally, it is still the same demons

01:39:05   and the same weird web-based UI communicating with it,

01:39:07   and they just added tab bar support or some crap like that.

01:39:10   I could see them doing that, but I am 100% willing to believe

01:39:14   that the project is underway somewhere to massively improve

01:39:19   the Mac App Store by making a new application

01:39:22   with the same name that works way better.

01:39:25   I'm sure it's in progress, but I will be flabbergasted

01:39:29   if we see it this year.

01:39:31   I still think my OpenGL thing is even more far-fetched, though.

01:39:33   - Probably, yeah. - Of course.

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01:41:44   - It's weird because both for iOS and macOS,

01:41:51   there's nothing I can think of right now

01:41:53   that I'm like, oh man, I can't imagine them

01:41:56   delivering blank. I feel like, and I think Marco had talked about this a lot last

01:42:01   year, that a lot of the low-hanging fruit has been plucked. And so at this

01:42:06   point, like, what do we really want? And what it comes down for both for me is

01:42:11   more about hardware than software, and WWDC in the last few years has not

01:42:16   really been a hardware event. But that being said, what do we want from Macs this

01:42:21   this year and I can tell you I want a MacBook

01:42:25   adorable update, that's all I want in the world.

01:42:29   Please, can I have a MacBook adorable update?

01:42:31   (laughing)

01:42:32   - Yeah, I think the hardware rumors are unusually

01:42:36   strong this year and usually in previous years,

01:42:39   you are right that WBC is almost always a no hardware event

01:42:43   but usually in previous years when the hardware rumors

01:42:46   would start up, Apple would shut them down

01:42:48   with a carefully placed controlled leak

01:42:51   so that there would be some kind of reliable report

01:42:53   from the Wall Street Journal or something like that saying,

01:42:55   there's definitely not gonna be new hardware announced

01:42:57   as they saw for Focus Event.

01:42:59   And that hasn't happened this year.

01:43:00   There's a lot of hardware noise

01:43:02   and there's been no denial like that

01:43:04   or no expectation setting statement like that anywhere.

01:43:07   So I'm guessing that there is some fire under the smoke.

01:43:12   The only question is which of the hardware rumors

01:43:15   are actually scheduled to come out this time,

01:43:19   like now instead of the fall or some other time.

01:43:23   And you know, Apple schedule wise,

01:43:26   I don't expect there to be an event in mid July or anything.

01:43:28   Like it's, you know, the hardware's gonna either come out,

01:43:31   or it's either gonna be announced

01:43:32   when it ships is a different story,

01:43:33   but it's either gonna be announced Monday

01:43:36   or in September or October.

01:43:38   You know, I wouldn't expect anything

01:43:39   in the meantime there.

01:43:41   So I would say the rumors this time

01:43:44   are a little all over the place.

01:43:46   It's, the rumors are basically

01:43:48   that everything is getting updated.

01:43:50   But the ones that seem most plausible

01:43:52   and most concentrated are the,

01:43:56   pretty much every modern MacBook and MacBook Pro.

01:43:59   So the 12 inch and then the modern generation

01:44:03   of 13 and 15 inch MacBook Pros

01:44:05   are all rumored to get Kaby Lake Intel CPU updates.

01:44:10   That would be nice.

01:44:12   It is, as far as I know, all of these parts are available.

01:44:16   like from Intel, I don't think we're waiting on any chips

01:44:19   being available or anything like that.

01:44:20   I think it is therefore plausible for all these things

01:44:23   to get these updates.

01:44:26   There are some people who are saying,

01:44:27   "No, it's way too soon," but the fact is,

01:44:29   these all came out in October,

01:44:30   they were already late even then,

01:44:33   and going like nine months between updates

01:44:37   is not unheard of.

01:44:39   They used to do things like that all the time

01:44:41   when new CPUs came out faster

01:44:42   and Apple would get on top of them faster.

01:44:45   So that is a thing that happens sometimes,

01:44:47   not often, but sometimes.

01:44:49   So it is totally plausible for them to update these things

01:44:51   so quote soon.

01:44:53   And if they do, you know, everyone has this like wish list

01:44:58   of things they want to be changed

01:45:00   with the new Mac approach.

01:45:00   We talked about this recently,

01:45:01   so I won't go too far into it,

01:45:02   but basically I would expect no major external changes.

01:45:07   I wouldn't expect different ports or more ports

01:45:11   or the return of an SD card reader

01:45:13   or anything that people want that was removed.

01:45:16   I would not expect any external changes whatsoever.

01:45:20   If they have revised the keyboard to fix the issues

01:45:23   that I've been complaining about with reliability,

01:45:25   especially with heat, I think if they fix that,

01:45:28   they won't say so, it'll be a silent update.

01:45:30   The one area that I think they might hit,

01:45:35   of the main areas of complaints, well two.

01:45:38   One, I think it is possible they will offer

01:45:42   a 32 gig RAM option on the 15 inch.

01:45:45   And even though it would, I think it still would need

01:45:47   to use the higher battery draw RAM,

01:45:51   but I don't think the battery draw,

01:45:53   like I haven't looked into the fine details of this,

01:45:55   I don't think I'm really qualified,

01:45:56   but the difference between the super low power RAM

01:45:59   and the kind of low power RAM would probably only make

01:46:02   maybe like a 5% difference to battery life

01:46:05   off the top of my head, like it's probably,

01:46:06   that's probably the ballpark we're talking about here.

01:46:09   And it makes total sense why Apple would not want that

01:46:13   to be on all of the MacBook Pros of a certain size,

01:46:16   but it would not surprise me at all

01:46:19   if they have that as an option.

01:46:20   So if you wanna trade 5% of your battery life

01:46:23   for 32 gigs of RAM, fine.

01:46:25   That's within the realm of Apple component options

01:46:29   they've offered before.

01:46:30   That's within the realm of different CPU options,

01:46:34   or things like whether you get the discrete GPU

01:46:37   or integrated only on certain models

01:46:40   that used to offer that.

01:46:41   - It would be great if they combined the 32 gig RAM option

01:46:43   with the option for a no discrete GPU.

01:46:46   I don't think they will, but that would be a way

01:46:47   to offset it maybe in future models.

01:46:49   - Right, and that's one thing too.

01:46:51   I also do think, I think are the GPUs in Kaby Lake

01:46:54   powerful enough to do an integrated only 15 inch now?

01:46:57   I know 'cause with Skylake, there was a thing

01:47:00   where basically like Intel's integrated GPUs

01:47:02   for that generation sucked and so Apple probably

01:47:05   wouldn't think they were good enough.

01:47:06   I think KBLiC they've improved them.

01:47:08   And so one of the biggest complaints

01:47:11   about the new MacBook Pros is that they've been

01:47:12   more expensive than the old ones.

01:47:14   So I think Apple will try to address this in some small way

01:47:18   with not necessarily price drops,

01:47:21   but lower specced entry prices for things.

01:47:23   So the 15 inch would probably be the first one

01:47:27   to get such a thing, maybe even the only one

01:47:29   to get a meaningful lower price.

01:47:32   But maybe they could do a discrete,

01:47:34   sorry, an integrated GPU only 15 inch,

01:47:36   like they used to do before,

01:47:38   which I've always been a big fan of,

01:47:39   'cause the battery life is usually substantially better

01:47:41   and more consistent and more controllable.

01:47:44   So integrated only 15 inch,

01:47:47   I do not expect a touch bar less, like 15 inch escape,

01:47:51   I don't expect that at all.

01:47:52   Maybe later, like in a couple years, probably not soon.

01:47:56   But I do think having a cheaper entry level configuration

01:48:01   is likely, probably IGPU only,

01:48:04   and then also a 32-meg option on the high end,

01:48:08   and with no other changes to the lineup.

01:48:10   I suspect that will address a lot of people's concerns.

01:48:14   It'll really turn around the discussion on these,

01:48:16   on whether they're pro or not,

01:48:17   if anyone's still having that discussion.

01:48:18   I think Apple wanted to hit that,

01:48:20   and I think they will in these two ways.

01:48:23   - It might have good PR,

01:48:25   but looking at those actual changes,

01:48:28   I think they actually don't address that many of the problems because it's like, it's perception

01:48:34   like, "Oh, we'll lower the entry price."

01:48:36   But if you get the 15-inch MacBook Pro you want, it's still really expensive.

01:48:40   And we'll add 32 gigs of RAM, but it's not like we're making things thicker or adding

01:48:44   more batteries so you're sacrificing for it and you still have to get a discrete GPU.

01:48:47   Like it is superficially making changes in the direction that people want, but it doesn't

01:48:53   fundamentally change the trade-offs that these machines make.

01:48:57   It just kind of, it's like better press, except for the 32, which is a capability they didn't

01:49:00   have before.

01:49:01   And so, you know, kudos for that.

01:49:03   That's going to be mostly a win.

01:49:05   But I would still be awaiting an actual revision that reimagines these machines with the new

01:49:16   demands of the market in mind.

01:49:18   But what the cranky part of the market has been saying about these, like make a new set

01:49:23   of machines that take that into account.

01:49:25   for the MacBook adorable in no case you just want them to revise it and like whatever they

01:49:28   revise it and he'll get it.

01:49:30   I'm going to put a 25% chance, it's not even going to be a stretch of it, I'm going to

01:49:33   say like I think it is plausible that there could be another USB port in that sucker.

01:49:38   Not 50%, 25% chance because they know it's a thing that people want.

01:49:44   They're going to do it eventually I think.

01:49:47   This is probably not the year to do it, it's just like oh let's just do an internal swap,

01:49:50   Kaby Lake, blah, blah, blah.

01:49:52   But, yeah, just, I don't know.

01:49:55   That's my max stretch goal, aside from the Mac Pro stuff,

01:49:59   which we'll get to in a second.

01:50:00   That's my max stretch goal.

01:50:01   That MacBook, adorable.

01:50:03   If it's revised, throw it.

01:50:05   I have a vision in my head of Phil Schiller's

01:50:08   understated way that he would have mentioned that.

01:50:10   I wish I could do a Phil Schiller impression

01:50:11   and be like, "And we've got another USB port

01:50:13   "around the side there.

01:50:15   "Isn't that nice?"

01:50:15   (laughing)

01:50:16   Like, you know how he would say that?

01:50:18   You know, he would like undersell it, right?

01:50:20   He would just go through the slides quickly, not dwell on it too long.

01:50:23   I'm ready for that to happen.

01:50:25   But Casey will be happy no matter what.

01:50:27   He just wants an internals revision.

01:50:30   All I want is to give Apple my money.

01:50:31   That's all I want.

01:50:32   Is that so much to ask?

01:50:33   It'll be so exciting when you're like, "Yes, they came out, and we can order them," and

01:50:36   you get them and your keys start sticking.

01:50:38   Boy, the shows will get out of that.

01:50:40   Oh my god.

01:50:41   No, because I won't be able to bring it up.

01:50:43   I won't be able to bring it up because if I do, then—

01:50:45   We can tell when you type in chat and there's no "E"s in your text anymore.

01:50:49   Oh, there's that.

01:50:50   Now, if I bring it up, then I have to admit #MarcoWasRight, and if we know anything about

01:50:55   me, we know that I don't like to do that.

01:50:56   He doesn't have a hashtag.

01:50:57   He's just got a broken keyboard.

01:50:59   Yeah.

01:51:00   There's the hash symbol.

01:51:02   Doesn't work.

01:51:03   And it would only say, "Mark was right," because my O key would be stuck down.

01:51:05   Oh, my God.

01:51:08   That's hysterical.

01:51:09   They're good keys, Marcus.

01:51:11   Yeah.

01:51:12   All right.

01:51:13   So, what about the Mac Pro?

01:51:14   Can we just get it over with?

01:51:15   I don't have a drink handy, so let's make it quick.

01:51:17   take out the Mac Pro is I still keep people hearing like, "Oh, they're gonna tease the

01:51:20   Mac Pro." It's like, what can they even do? I don't need anything from them. I'm patient.

01:51:26   I'm content to wait. We already had our Mac Pro moment. We had our shows about it. There

01:51:29   was a round table. Things were discussed. Apologies were made. Like, I think everything

01:51:34   is fine there. If they want to tease something, get us to say, "I'm not a monster. I don't

01:51:40   object to being teased. I just have a hard time believing that there is anything worth

01:51:47   Worth teasing at this point

01:51:49   Like the best account was they have a logo. I honestly at this point

01:51:53   I hope they don't have a case design that they can tease

01:51:56   I hope they haven't finalized that yet because I want them to do a really good job

01:52:00   Like I said, I'm well, I don't want them to rush to market with a box with a bunch of stuff in it

01:52:05   I want it to be cool in all the ways that cool Mac can be cool and I'm willing to wait a couple extra months

01:52:08   For that right? I have a hard time believing they have a case they could show I have hard to believe me

01:52:12   They would show the case I Marco pointed out when we were talking about this

01:52:15   I think in Slack before I pointed out like well they teased the 2013 Mac Pro

01:52:18   But I feel like that was practically a finished machine a granted didn't ship for months

01:52:22   But they knew the design they knew everything was going into it like this was there was nothing that wasn't like a we're gonna show

01:52:28   You the case design of our work in progress like that was the machine that shipped like those

01:52:33   Everything about it right?

01:52:35   And they're not at that point within a Mac Pro I imagine so if they want to show a logo and a tone poem kind

01:52:40   of video like the little dots connecting iOS 7 thing that they showed 700 times? Sure,

01:52:45   but I don't expect anything and I won't be mad if I get nothing.

01:52:48   Yeah, I'm with you on all of that basically. I really think it's very, very soon to be

01:52:55   showing anything meaningful. It would be nice if they did, but I would put the likelihood

01:53:01   fairly low on that. But I do think it's worth asking about the iMac Pro. In that Mac Pro

01:53:08   Pro press briefing.

01:53:09   - In the Mac section in the notes,

01:53:10   I had laptops and then I said desktops, ha!

01:53:13   Remember, at Mike's desktops?

01:53:15   - But the iMac is overdue for an update

01:53:18   and they confirmed the existence of pro configurations

01:53:21   of the iMac during that Mac Pro press briefing.

01:53:25   And those, I believe they said those were for this year.

01:53:29   So the Mac Pro, they said not this year.

01:53:32   But the iMac, I think they specifically said this year.

01:53:35   - They can come in the fall still.

01:53:36   - Right, and so it's either now or the fall event basically

01:53:40   is when these are likely to be happening.

01:53:43   I am still incredibly curious to learn

01:53:48   what is a pro configuration of an iMac

01:53:51   and how does that differ from the Mac Pro

01:53:53   and how does this product not make either

01:53:57   the other configuration of the iMac or the Mac Pro

01:54:00   very redundant, like what is this middle ground?

01:54:04   There are things they could do there

01:54:06   but they're all kind of weird and obscure,

01:54:08   like high-end Intel CPUs and maybe like

01:54:11   one or two Mac Pro features, but I don't know.

01:54:13   - Slightly better GPUs, like with the--

01:54:15   - Yeah, like I don't, that's why it's, it sounds,

01:54:18   that's why I'm incredibly curious about

01:54:21   what the iMac Pro is and what makes it different

01:54:25   from the iMac and the Mac Pro.

01:54:27   - I think the joke I made in Slack the other day

01:54:29   was Pinstripe, but now that I think about it,

01:54:32   Casey's matte black iPhone, put that finish on the iMac,

01:54:35   - Make no other changes, call up the iMac Pro,

01:54:37   people will buy it.

01:54:38   - There you go, I'd probably buy one.

01:54:39   That is possible that the iMacs could come out,

01:54:43   this event, but I think it feels, it's weird,

01:54:48   it feels late for the regular iMac,

01:54:50   but it feels a little early for the iMac Pro,

01:54:52   depending on what they're putting in it.

01:54:53   So I would say that's more likely

01:54:56   to be pushed to the fall event.

01:54:57   And there's also, there is this rumor

01:55:01   that the MacBook Air would be updated

01:55:04   with no changes other than it would get modern guts.

01:55:07   And I think it's unspecified whether that means

01:55:09   Skylake or Kaby Lake.

01:55:10   - Same old TN screen, but modern guts, right?

01:55:13   - And that actually sounds incredibly plausible to me

01:55:16   because Intel at some point is going to stop making

01:55:21   whatever ancient CPUs it has.

01:55:23   That point is probably soon.

01:55:24   So they're gonna have to stop,

01:55:26   like they're gonna have to like finally

01:55:29   put something else in here.

01:55:31   - Can that screen manufacturer stop making that screen,

01:55:33   so we can get an improvement there.

01:55:37   Yeah, and yeah, if they were to do such a thing,

01:55:40   I definitely think that,

01:55:43   I agree with the rest of the predictions I've heard,

01:55:45   which is that it will not be mentioned.

01:55:47   It would probably, it would be barely indicated

01:55:51   even on the website.

01:55:53   There might be a new badge. - They'll put a yellow

01:55:54   new tag on it, right?

01:55:55   - Yeah, at best.

01:55:56   Like, I think that would be the only change.

01:55:58   Like, I wouldn't expect a retina, I wouldn't expect USB-C,

01:56:02   I would expect no other modernization of this platform

01:56:05   except Skylake Guts or even, or Kaby Lake,

01:56:08   but probably even Skylake,

01:56:10   'cause they don't even wanna be too modern

01:56:12   with what they're putting in here.

01:56:15   So yeah, I would not expect big things there,

01:56:18   just a very basic update.

01:56:19   And if you are a fan of the ancient MacBook Air platform,

01:56:24   that actually would be a pretty nice computer

01:56:27   if you don't care about anything modern or retina.

01:56:29   - And you don't have eyes.

01:56:30   - Right, yeah, exactly.

01:56:31   - Wow.

01:56:32   - Like imagine if they don't actually change the case size

01:56:36   or the battery size,

01:56:38   that's gonna get incredible battery life.

01:56:40   - Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

01:56:41   Like the danger of that thing,

01:56:43   the longer you keep it around,

01:56:44   the more people realize, you know,

01:56:45   if they just put a retina screen on this thing,

01:56:47   it would be Apple's best selling laptop again.

01:56:49   Shh, don't tell anybody.

01:56:51   We wanted to buy these other things for way more money.

01:56:53   - Well the sad part is it probably still

01:56:54   is Apple's best selling laptop.

01:56:56   - Yeah, I know, 'cause it's cheap.

01:56:57   But you know what I mean,

01:56:58   like it would be the one that we,

01:56:59   Back when we were all recommending 13-inch MacBook Air

01:57:02   is like the default recommendation, right?

01:57:05   We'd be in those times again.

01:57:07   - All right, what do we think about the iPad rumors?

01:57:10   - Well, you just skipped over the Mac Mini,

01:57:11   let's just say no updates.

01:57:13   - Oh yeah, definitely not.

01:57:14   - Was that seriously an option in there?

01:57:16   - Here's the problem, like all the stuff we've gone through,

01:57:19   so many things were like, oh maybe,

01:57:21   or they could do this, but they can't.

01:57:23   There's not enough time in the keynote for all of this.

01:57:25   - Well, but so like, you know, the MacBooks,

01:57:27   I guarantee you we just spent more time talking

01:57:30   about the MacBook Pros than they will.

01:57:31   - Yeah, they wouldn't mention that,

01:57:33   but even just the stuff that we have mentioned,

01:57:35   there's only so much time,

01:57:37   they got a lot of stuff to cover.

01:57:39   Whether or not there's a Siri tube thing,

01:57:41   I just feel like we've overstuffed the thing

01:57:44   with things that we think there are over 50% chance

01:57:47   of being mentioned in the keynote already.

01:57:49   - Yeah, and keep in mind also,

01:57:50   the keynote is gonna also have a ton of time

01:57:54   consumed by things like retail updates.

01:57:56   Like on the talk show, Gruber and Dallerin were

01:57:59   respectively like maybe this is when they announce

01:58:02   a major retail thing and then maybe they have

01:58:04   Angela Ahrens out on stage and like that all

01:58:06   sounds very plausible.

01:58:07   There's probably also gonna be some kind of

01:58:10   Jeff Williams like social, medical, environmental

01:58:13   good initiative, something like that.

01:58:14   Like so there's gonna be time with that

01:58:16   and there's gonna be demos of any new stuff they have

01:58:18   and there's gonna be all these segments

01:58:21   that will take up a lot of time and so the stuff

01:58:24   we're talking about is gonna be squeezed

01:58:26   to little intermediate sections between it all.

01:58:29   So we're gonna sit here spending two and a half hours

01:58:31   on this, but they're gonna spend 20 minutes

01:58:34   on what we're talking about here for two and a half hours.

01:58:37   - I think if they have a lot of announcements,

01:58:39   I think what they'll do is they'll end up squeezing out

01:58:42   the less tech-focused things.

01:58:45   'Cause in the years where they have a lot of those,

01:58:47   especially if it's tied to one of the tech announcements,

01:58:49   fine, but not that they feel like filler,

01:58:51   but you don't have the luxury of an extended segment

01:58:55   about health monitoring thing or whatever, right?

01:59:00   Unless it's tied to, oh, and by the way,

01:59:01   here's the new Apple Watch with a glucose measuring thing.

01:59:04   That's the only time you get to have that segment.

01:59:06   Or if you have a keynote that doesn't have a lot of stuff

01:59:07   in it and they need some time to fail, they'll do that.

01:59:09   But if anything close to what we've gone through is there,

01:59:12   they're gonna have to be super efficient to be like,

01:59:15   we got a lot of stuff to get to, there's this, there's this.

01:59:17   That's what, for the Tim Cook's little thing

01:59:20   where he comes out and says stuff,

01:59:21   I expect his spiel to be,

01:59:24   we've got a jam-packed thing,

01:59:25   we have a lot of stuff to get to.

01:59:26   He always says that, but like,

01:59:27   to actually mean it or to emphasize it slightly more

01:59:30   before he gets off stage

01:59:30   and the parade of other executives come out.

01:59:33   - All right, so any thoughts on iPad hardware?

01:59:37   - So my prediction is that this is this year's iPad event.

01:59:43   I don't think there's gonna be iPads in the fall.

01:59:45   I think this is the iPad event for the year

01:59:47   because it goes in with all the software advances

01:59:50   that they're announcing.

01:59:51   - And there's so much time left in the keynote,

01:59:53   you might as well, right?

01:59:53   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, might as well get shoved in there.

01:59:56   You know, I think the incredible rumors,

01:59:59   incredibly strong rumors about this 10.5 inch

02:00:02   or whatever it is, 10 point whatever inch iPad

02:00:04   being basically the new 10 inch class size,

02:00:08   just bigger screen, roughly same body shape and size,

02:00:11   that is so incredibly strongly rumored,

02:00:14   it's very likely to be true.

02:00:16   I think what we see basically is the new 10.5

02:00:22   is the new high-end iPad Pro.

02:00:25   I think the 9.7 goes basically unchanged

02:00:29   and just has its price dropped a little bit

02:00:30   because if you look now in the lineup,

02:00:32   we mentioned a couple episodes ago,

02:00:33   there's this massive price gap

02:00:35   between the new cheap 9.7 inch iPad

02:00:38   and the iPad Pro and like the 9.7.

02:00:42   It's 329 to 600.

02:00:45   Like that's the price jump there.

02:00:46   It's a huge price jump.

02:00:48   So something's up.

02:00:50   that seems like a temporary thing

02:00:53   that we're waiting to be filled in with that gap

02:00:55   by other things or by changes.

02:00:57   So I'm guessing basically the existing 9.7

02:01:00   gets dropped in price, probably 100 bucks.

02:01:03   So it's not gonna close the entire gap

02:01:06   or it's not gonna come all the way down

02:01:07   to like 400 or anything, but it'll go from 600

02:01:10   to 500 starting price, that's my best guess there.

02:01:13   So you have the 329 base one,

02:01:16   you have 500 for the iPad Pro,

02:01:18   Nobody cares about the iPad Mini anymore, sorry Casey.

02:01:21   And then the new 10 point whatever will be 600.

02:01:26   That's my best guess.

02:01:27   The question, one question I have though,

02:01:30   is the 12.9 dead?

02:01:32   I think there's a very strong chance of this.

02:01:36   I think there's a very strong chance the 12.9

02:01:39   gets no update and is basically left for dead

02:01:42   similar to the Mini.

02:01:43   - We'll never hear the end of that on certain mother podcasts

02:01:46   - I know.

02:01:47   No, they're all gonna switch to the 10 point whatever because it's gonna be the same screen resolution in a smaller body

02:01:51   Because they all have nine point sevens because they're better

02:01:54   all the 12.9 users like that are like like like I'm I can fatigue she like they all also bought nine point sevens and

02:02:02   In many ways like them better because the nine point seven is a way better size to actually hold

02:02:08   I kind of hope they kill the twelve point nine and make an even bigger one because you know, I want bigger

02:02:14   I know you want that but that's a different thing though

02:02:16   Like, I think, what I noticed with the 12.9,

02:02:20   and part of this is 'cause I actually did resell

02:02:24   the one that I bought at a substantial loss.

02:02:27   What I noticed with 12.9 is that,

02:02:30   very quickly after release,

02:02:33   it was being indefinitely discounted

02:02:36   by a large amount of money at places like Best Buy

02:02:39   and Target.

02:02:40   And Apple does this sometimes to kind of unload things

02:02:42   at lower prices that aren't selling very well.

02:02:45   Like Apple didn't want the PR maybe of dropping the price

02:02:49   so soon, but it was within a very short time of release

02:02:53   that these other retailers that work closely with Apple

02:02:56   and sell very large volumes were suddenly able to sell

02:02:59   these things at like $150 below retail

02:03:03   or $200 below retail.

02:03:05   And this wasn't like a temporary weekend sale,

02:03:07   it was like this was just kind of the new price.

02:03:09   And it seemed like there was quite a fire sale going on

02:03:12   on the 12.9, very soon after it's released,

02:03:15   that never stopped.

02:03:16   So I'm guessing it did not sell to Apple's expectations.

02:03:20   And I really think that there's a very good chance

02:03:24   that if they're able to cram in the functionality

02:03:29   of the 12.9 into something with that 10.5 inch screen,

02:03:33   into a 9.7 inch style body--

02:03:36   - Which they will.

02:03:37   That's the whole point of that form factor.

02:03:38   - Which all of the rumors say

02:03:40   that that's exactly what they've done,

02:03:42   I'm guessing that the 12.9 is not long for this world.

02:03:46   - Well, but you gotta remember Tim Cook's Apple.

02:03:49   All that means is they'll just keep selling it.

02:03:51   - Right, but what I'm saying is

02:03:53   I bet it doesn't get an update.

02:03:55   - But it's more than that though, right?

02:03:56   Because even though this Phantom 10-whatever-inch iPad

02:04:01   is theoretically the same screen resolution,

02:04:04   screen resolution is not the same as screen size.

02:04:08   And that's why, you know, the iPad Mini is the same resolution as a full-size iPad, and by that I mean the 9.7-inch iPad.

02:04:16   But some people like the 9.7, and some people like the portability of the Mini.

02:04:21   And so I don't think just because this phantom 10-inch iPad will have the same resolution as the iPad Mega,

02:04:29   I don't think that that by default means that the 12-inch iPad Pro just goes away.

02:04:34   I think there are people like Vitici like CGP Grey like Mike that want an a

02:04:40   12 inch iPad Pro in their stable of

02:04:45   504 iPads I think the digital switch but and then and remember like 10 10 point whatever is much closer to 12.9

02:04:52   The minis the 9.7 right in terms of area

02:04:55   I think I think all those people you listed the teacher just wants the productivity

02:04:59   right? And I think he might take the size reduction as a win. Like, he just needs to

02:05:03   be able to have two full-size things next to each other and blah, blah, blah, and he'll

02:05:06   get that in a 10.5.

02:05:08   He still has young eyes.

02:05:10   Yeah. Yeah. Setting aside the random people that we happen to know, market-wise, the selling

02:05:19   point of a 12.9 over a 10-point something that has the same resolution, maybe the Arbicume

02:05:27   made for artists that you just want a bigger, you know, a bigger canvas to draw on because

02:05:31   you're physically moving the stylus over the silhouette, which is again why I argue for

02:05:35   an even bigger one.

02:05:37   But I'm having a hard time thinking of someone outside that problem domain who would actually

02:05:47   prefer a 12.9 over a 10 point something with exactly the same resolution, especially if

02:05:54   they don't update the 12.9s and turn-alls.

02:05:56   And again, getting back to Tim Cook's Apple, maybe they just continued to sell the 12.9

02:06:00   because why not and some people still want it.

02:06:03   But it's really getting, if that 10 point whatever comes out, it's really pressing hard

02:06:08   up against the 12.9 and it's pressing hard against a product that hasn't been updated.

02:06:12   Yeah, I don't know.

02:06:16   Things don't look good for the future of that product.

02:06:19   I really hope things look good for the future of a larger size iPad.

02:06:23   They just need to widen the gap a little bit

02:06:25   because they're getting encroached from below.

02:06:28   - I will also predict on the iPad section,

02:06:31   I would like to see updates to the pencil and the keyboard.

02:06:35   If they do, I would expect, based on what I just said,

02:06:38   basically damning the 12.9 into nothingness,

02:06:41   I would expect that it would only come

02:06:44   to the new 10.5 inch size.

02:06:46   Maybe the 9.7 would also get it

02:06:49   if it could be the same size, like for the keyboard,

02:06:52   but I'm guessing we got a pencil two and a keyboard two

02:06:57   with improvements kind of all around.

02:07:00   Not like massive earth-shattering improvements,

02:07:02   but improvements.

02:07:03   The keyboard, I don't know, better key somethings,

02:07:07   I don't know, I loved Gruber's idea of the keyboard.

02:07:10   I love that idea that Gruber kind of branched around

02:07:13   on the talk show and then wrote up a big post.

02:07:14   I love the idea of the trackpad that's only used

02:07:17   for like cursor movement, that's an awesome idea.

02:07:20   I don't think they're going to do it this year,

02:07:22   but maybe in the future.

02:07:24   That's a great idea.

02:07:25   And then the pencil, I would love to see improvements

02:07:30   for the pencil.

02:07:30   The biggest gain for me would be if there were some easier,

02:07:37   better way to carry the pencil with the iPad.

02:07:41   Maybe a sequel to the keyboard cover could have

02:07:44   a pencil slot somewhere in it, maybe.

02:07:46   I think it's unlikely.

02:07:48   But something that's more likely with today's Apple,

02:07:51   that maybe the Pencil 2 gets better battery life.

02:07:56   - Eh, it's not bad.

02:07:58   It charges really fast.

02:08:00   - It's bad if you don't constantly use it,

02:08:03   but you carry it around with you.

02:08:05   Then the battery life is really bad.

02:08:07   Because the Pencil has no on/off switch.

02:08:11   It basically tries to intelligently manage its power state

02:08:15   based on things like motion and proximity to your iPad.

02:08:19   if you carry it in the same bag as your iPad

02:08:22   or if it kinda hangs out on a table

02:08:23   or kinda next to your iPad, the battery's always dead.

02:08:27   Because it's always nearby and kind of in motion

02:08:30   and ready to go. - You don't get the alerts

02:08:31   that tell you your pencil battery's running low

02:08:33   and remind you to plug it in?

02:08:34   - Sorry, your battery's always alerting you

02:08:36   that it's 5% full.

02:08:37   So it could really benefit from certain things

02:08:43   that I don't think Johnny and I would ever add to it.

02:08:45   Things like a power switch.

02:08:46   I think it would strongly benefit from a power switch.

02:08:49   I don't see that happening.

02:08:50   So what do you think about smart connector or magnetic connections or other Microsoft

02:08:54   Surface-y style things?

02:08:56   Because that's, I agree that's a problem.

02:08:57   Like what the hell do you do with your pencil?

02:08:59   And I don't think the solution is a bunch of loops or pockets and cases to shove it

02:09:02   in.

02:09:03   I want to be able to magnetically clip it, hopefully in a way that is still charging

02:09:06   the thing.

02:09:07   But I mean, they could have done that in the original release and they decided not to,

02:09:10   which makes me think they don't want to put holes in the side of their precious pencil

02:09:12   to deal with the smart connector.

02:09:14   Like it's sitting right there.

02:09:15   a place that provides power that has a magnetic connection points but it's just too big and

02:09:20   unwieldy for them to ward up their phone with it. But I also think that there's got to be

02:09:25   a better solution for charging than the little, you know, the little spiny horn that we, when

02:09:31   you plug the pencil into your iPad and it makes this terrible, ungainly, horrifyingly

02:09:35   breakable arrangement of hardware.

02:09:37   - Yeah, I mean the pencil right now is,

02:09:40   it really embodies much of the skeptical take

02:09:45   of a Johnny Ive design, where it looks like

02:09:48   a beautiful object in isolation,

02:09:50   but the way you have to actually use it

02:09:52   has lots of design flaws.

02:09:54   One of them is, yes it does still roll.

02:09:56   It is weighted, doesn't roll very far sometimes,

02:09:59   but it does roll.

02:10:01   The biggest design flaw by far for me is that cap.

02:10:03   That cap on the end that is very easily lost.

02:10:06   If you drop it, it will break, the ring will pop out.

02:10:09   And the fact that you then, while charging it,

02:10:14   have to take this cap off and you have nowhere to put it,

02:10:17   it's not captive in any way, it doesn't hang on to anything,

02:10:19   it doesn't go anywhere.

02:10:20   So it's just begging to be lost as you charge the pencil.

02:10:24   Not to mention, you know, the aforementioned way

02:10:26   you charge the pencil.

02:10:27   You know, either you have to have this weird like,

02:10:30   you know, gender change your adapter

02:10:32   on a lightning plug somewhere,

02:10:33   on a lightning cable somewhere,

02:10:35   to charge it from a cable, then you have another tiny,

02:10:38   white, precious thing that you can easily lose

02:10:40   'cause there's nowhere to keep it.

02:10:41   Or you do the thing where you shove it

02:10:43   into the bottom of your iPad and have it sticking out

02:10:44   and as you mentioned, it's kind of crazy looking

02:10:47   and really seems very dangerous and is very unnerving

02:10:49   and doesn't charge as quickly.

02:10:51   So charging the Apple Pencil is just a series of frustration

02:10:56   and form over function design choices.

02:11:03   and this would be alleviated largely

02:11:07   if they could have one that didn't need

02:11:09   to be charged as often.

02:11:11   So, and I think that's much more likely

02:11:14   than Johnny and I have adding buttons

02:11:15   or reasonable charging methods.

02:11:17   - I just want it to magnetically attach to everything.

02:11:19   I want it to magnetically attach to the smart cover

02:11:21   if you have one, I want it to magnetically attach

02:11:23   to the actual device if you don't have it,

02:11:24   I want it to inductively charge through those things.

02:11:27   - That'd be great.

02:11:28   - That's not coming, I think.

02:11:29   There are pretty strong rumors

02:11:30   of an actual pencil revision, right?

02:11:32   I forget what the rumored things that they were improving about it.

02:11:36   Maybe the charging thing was changed, but all of our wish lists for pencils is surely

02:11:40   not coming.

02:11:41   Because, again, like, it's not like the smart connector didn't exist when the pencil

02:11:45   came out.

02:11:46   It did, and they chose not to use it for various reasons, so I don't see them changing their

02:11:50   mind on that.

02:11:51   But, yeah, like, the—what do you call it—the logistics, the packaging, the, in Marco Camera

02:11:57   parlance, the handling of the pencil is pretty awful.

02:12:00   - Yeah, and the smart connector is wonderful.

02:12:03   One of the reasons why I enjoy

02:12:05   the smart connector keyboard so much

02:12:07   is that I never have to worry about its power state.

02:12:11   When it's connected, it's on.

02:12:13   It has no battery life.

02:12:15   It's amazing.

02:12:16   When I'm using my iPad, I want to use the keyboard,

02:12:19   I can just use the keyboard.

02:12:21   I never have to think about it.

02:12:23   I never have to wait for it to charge.

02:12:24   I never go to it and find it uncharged.

02:12:27   It's a thing that is no longer a concern.

02:12:30   And so anything that can bring the pencil closer to that

02:12:33   would be a huge upgrade for everyday pencil usability.

02:12:37   - Anything else on iPad?

02:12:40   - I don't think so.

02:12:41   Again, I think this is the iPad event for the year.

02:12:43   I would not expect to see, like,

02:12:45   if the 10 point whatever inch iPad is announced next week,

02:12:50   I would not expect to see

02:12:51   any other iPad hardware release this year.

02:12:54   - I think this will absolutely be the WWDC of iPad software.

02:12:59   I will go on record as saying I do not think

02:13:01   we're going to see hardware.

02:13:02   I think it'll be in the fall.

02:13:04   - That's possible.

02:13:05   - All right, iPhone, obviously no new hardware.

02:13:09   - That's definitely the fall.

02:13:10   - Yeah, and it's gonna be nerdy.

02:13:11   - If you think about kind of what we've pushed to the fall,

02:13:13   I think makes for a pretty good event.

02:13:15   So what we've pushed to the fall so far is iPhone hardware,

02:13:19   almost certainly the iMacs, maybe Mac Pro info,

02:13:25   but probably not, and then, you know,

02:13:28   We haven't talked about the watch or TV yet.

02:13:30   My best guess is that watch and TV

02:13:33   both have hardware in the fall.

02:13:36   And then there also might be things like

02:13:38   the rumored Apple Pay peer-to-peer thing

02:13:40   where you can pay people directly with Apple Pay.

02:13:42   So if you think about that,

02:13:43   that could be a fall event right there.

02:13:45   New iPhone, massive iPhone year, right?

02:13:48   So new iPhone is most of the event.

02:13:50   Person-to-person Apple Pay,

02:13:52   minor revision to the watch,

02:13:54   4K Apple TV with 4K iTunes content and iMacs.

02:13:58   That's a fall event.

02:14:00   So you don't need to also shove in iPads

02:14:03   and everything else into that.

02:14:04   That's enough right there.

02:14:06   - Yeah, I think the iPads will go to fall

02:14:08   only if they're not ready.

02:14:09   Like I don't think they would delay them for the,

02:14:11   I think they would announce them

02:14:12   if they're gonna ship any time in the next three months.

02:14:16   But if they're not, then fall.

02:14:18   - Yeah.

02:14:20   - All right, so software for the Apple TV, anything?

02:14:23   "The content deals is what we care about."

02:14:26   Because the software and the remote suck and we all hate them and we have complaints.

02:14:30   But what makes that device more or less valuable if they're not going to change the hardware?

02:14:37   It's not as if they can put another new interface.

02:14:39   It's all about the content.

02:14:41   I suppose the only software thing they could do is say, "Hey, remember that single sign-on

02:14:44   thing that we touted and no one signed up for?

02:14:46   Well, we got some of the important people to sign up for it."

02:14:50   I feel like the only big software win

02:14:52   that they could trot out that would have

02:14:54   an appreciable effect on the life of people

02:14:57   who are newly buying Apple TVs,

02:14:59   like to not have to go through that,

02:15:01   sign in, type these letters that appear

02:15:02   on your whatever thing.

02:15:04   - Yeah, I think TV, it's gonna be, I think,

02:15:07   a very quiet year for the TV, for the most part,

02:15:11   at least for the summer.

02:15:12   I would expect maybe announcements of new content deals.

02:15:16   Maybe we'll hear about that Amazon deal, who knows?

02:15:19   They'll announce some new partners that are all,

02:15:21   that will all be cable companies and TV providers

02:15:23   that none of us subscribe to.

02:15:24   And oh, now you can get to all these things with a TV app,

02:15:27   but you still can't get to Netflix or whatever.

02:15:28   You know, it's gonna be like moderate updates

02:15:30   to the TV app thing.

02:15:31   They're gonna really push it hard,

02:15:32   but it's gonna not have a lot behind it.

02:15:35   And all of the, you know, like what I said a minute ago,

02:15:37   like I do expect this to be the year

02:15:40   of new Apple TV hardware that can almost certainly

02:15:43   play 4K video and would probably then at the event

02:15:47   come with announcement of 4K content deals

02:15:49   with both iTunes and maybe other things

02:15:51   like Netflix and Amazon, but I would expect that

02:15:54   to be in the fall event, not next week.

02:15:56   So very quiet on the TV OS front is my prediction.

02:15:59   I don't expect any massive new APIs

02:16:03   for developers or anything.

02:16:04   Honestly, I think the developer story for TV OS

02:16:08   has largely not panned out, and I think at this point

02:16:12   it's pretty clear it probably isn't going

02:16:13   to largely pan out.

02:16:14   I think it's pretty much done and limited to

02:16:18   major video apps and a very small handful of games.

02:16:22   - Any time they wanna do 24 frames per second output

02:16:25   on the Apple TV, sitting there waiting for 'em.

02:16:27   You don't even have to do it in 4K,

02:16:29   you can do it on the old model, anytime.

02:16:32   My radar that I filed for that I checked

02:16:34   is still sitting there marked as duplicate,

02:16:37   never to be read from again.

02:16:39   - As with all things radar.

02:16:40   - WatchOS, I would expect just a small evolution

02:16:44   of what we're used to, kind of a deprioritization of apps,

02:16:48   a continued prioritization of notifications

02:16:51   and things like that.

02:16:52   Are we gonna get watch faces this year?

02:16:53   I say no.

02:16:55   - I had that as a stretch goal,

02:16:56   'cause I wrote maybe in italics,

02:16:59   maybe third-party watch faces,

02:17:02   but I think it's unlikely.

02:17:04   And I do think too, again, I think this is gonna be

02:17:08   a pretty quiet year for WatchOS too.

02:17:10   and last year was a big year, they had a lot to do

02:17:12   and they really did it last year.

02:17:14   With watchOS 3 that was a major update,

02:17:16   solved a lot of the watches major problems

02:17:18   in a pretty good way.

02:17:20   So this year I would be surprised

02:17:23   if we see more major progress.

02:17:26   I feel like this is probably gonna be

02:17:27   like a down year for now.

02:17:30   Maybe they'll do something like improve the design

02:17:32   of the weird honeycomb app screen

02:17:35   or maybe they'll add something like

02:17:37   third party watch faces, but I think the more likely

02:17:40   long-term goal is to add features such as an always-on

02:17:45   like dim clock mode or things like sleep tracking

02:17:48   or the rumored diabetes tracking thing,

02:17:51   whether that's a separate add-on

02:17:52   or whether it's part of the watch, who knows?

02:17:54   But all of these things would require new hardware.

02:17:57   Like they're not gonna add a new always-on screen mode

02:18:01   that the current models don't have the battery power to do

02:18:04   and still have good battery life all day.

02:18:07   And I think having the screen always be on,

02:18:10   even to a very dim level, and even if nothing's animated,

02:18:13   and even if it hardly ever updates,

02:18:15   that's still a massive increase in power draw.

02:18:18   So I'm guessing the current models probably can't do that,

02:18:22   and still have good battery life for anything else.

02:18:24   So I'm guessing that all of that stuff

02:18:27   would wait for new hardware,

02:18:29   which should almost certainly be in the fall, not now.

02:18:32   - They could fix your audio player API,

02:18:33   install your audio dreams, right?

02:18:36   - That wouldn't be in the keynote obviously,

02:18:37   but that could happen to W3C for watchOS,

02:18:39   it's relevant to you at least.

02:18:40   - It could, you know, man I would love

02:18:43   if they would make it easier for me to make a good watch app

02:18:47   'cause right now I made a watch app, it's okay,

02:18:50   like with local playback, it's okay,

02:18:52   and it could be good if they would bring over a few more

02:18:56   of the iOS audio APIs, things like getting remote control

02:19:00   events from headphones, you could like use the play/pause

02:19:03   or back/forward buttons on your headphones

02:19:05   and that would actually control it.

02:19:07   Volume control of the system volume level,

02:19:09   not just the local app zero to one volume level

02:19:12   that I have now.

02:19:13   Any kind of now playing center access

02:19:17   like you have on the Mac, or on iOS rather.

02:19:21   There's lots of things they could do there,

02:19:23   but I just think those are probably

02:19:25   a really low priority for them.

02:19:26   'Cause I don't think anything on the watch is a priority

02:19:31   that doesn't have to do with health or notifications.

02:19:34   And that's probably with good reason,

02:19:35   because those are the things that almost everyone's using

02:19:37   their watch for, and those are the things

02:19:38   that the watch is really good for.

02:19:40   So I think those things get priority,

02:19:42   everything else is probably pretty far down the list,

02:19:44   pretty secondary, so I wouldn't expect

02:19:46   a lot of motion there.

02:19:48   - Where, I forget if you had thought that watch,

02:19:51   where does the watch go, like the rumored watch

02:19:53   with the special bands and the next watch hardware revision,

02:19:57   does that go to the fall or does that go to next year?

02:19:59   - I suspect fall.

02:20:01   And whether it's gonna have the fancy blood sugar one,

02:20:06   or whether that's a separate thing, I don't know.

02:20:09   I have no idea.

02:20:11   From people who've been writing about this recently,

02:20:13   it seems like that's a ridiculously hard problem to solve,

02:20:15   and many companies have tried,

02:20:17   and it takes a very long time.

02:20:18   So it wouldn't surprise me if that part doesn't come soon.

02:20:21   But they did watches last fall,

02:20:24   and so if they're gonna do something

02:20:27   that would require new hardware with the watch platform,

02:20:30   things like sleep tracking or always on faces

02:20:34   so that you could, like things that would need

02:20:35   better battery life, things like that.

02:20:37   I think this fall is a totally plausible

02:20:39   and reasonable time to do that.

02:20:41   Not to mention the fact that it's usually

02:20:42   a big holiday seller.

02:20:44   The watch sells a lot over the holidays,

02:20:46   even more so than phones and iPads, I think,

02:20:48   based on little bits and pieces

02:20:49   I'm able to pick up here and there.

02:20:50   - It's the new iPod.

02:20:52   - Yeah, it is a massive holiday seller,

02:20:54   so it would make sense for them to really try

02:20:56   to get updates out there in the fall event

02:20:57   right in time for the holiday shopping.

02:21:00   - Yeah, I agree with everything you said, Marco.

02:21:02   All right, so to kind of round this out and end the episode,

02:21:07   maybe some, I don't know how to describe it,

02:21:09   but like some touchy feely or like--

02:21:11   - Hey, wait, wait, we're not done, we're not here yet.

02:21:13   We're talking about services.

02:21:14   - Oh, God.

02:21:16   This is the show that will not end.

02:21:18   - Oh, that's the document.

02:21:19   - Okay, well, services.

02:21:21   I think continued push to iCloud, all the things,

02:21:25   and continued grumbling from everyone involved

02:21:27   about how successful that will be.

02:21:29   - Yeah, and so basically my list of services

02:21:32   includes a lot of things I've already said,

02:21:33   things like heavy push towards iCloud storage

02:21:35   and getting you to buy those plans.

02:21:37   Massive push to Apple Music.

02:21:39   I think it's gonna be, as always,

02:21:44   Apple Music's gonna get a lot of keynote time.

02:21:47   It might not all go smoothly,

02:21:51   but it's gonna be a lot of keynote time.

02:21:52   I expect it to get another redesign.

02:21:54   It's still gonna be confusing.

02:21:57   - The keynote time, it'll be like,

02:21:58   Apple Music, your home for television shows.

02:22:00   'Cause isn't that the pitch now?

02:22:03   Like it's Apple Music, come for our TV shows, what?

02:22:08   - Yeah right, and I totally expect them to do

02:22:11   incredibly heavy-handed promotion of Planet of the Apps

02:22:15   and Carpool Karaoke and anything else they might be,

02:22:18   they might want to announce any new production.

02:22:21   - But you really think, you're making a joke

02:22:22   about the music app redesign,

02:22:23   do you really think that's gonna happen again?

02:22:25   - No I really think it's gonna happen again.

02:22:26   I think the music app redesign is the new iTunes redesign.

02:22:30   Like it's gonna happen just every year.

02:22:32   It's never gonna be good.

02:22:33   - Does that mean I have to disable

02:22:35   Connect to My Toolbar again?

02:22:37   - Probably.

02:22:37   Or whatever new social network they launch at this time.

02:22:41   So yeah, my prediction is very heavy hand-to-hand promotion

02:22:46   of their app music shows, of app music itself.

02:22:49   At least one really awkward skit or video.

02:22:55   and something's just really heavy handed and awkward.

02:22:58   - I hope there is just not time for this in the keynote.

02:23:00   Not that I hope that it doesn't come,

02:23:02   but I really hope that there is not time.

02:23:04   - Oh, they'll make time?

02:23:05   (laughs)

02:23:06   Beyond that, iCloud Drive, I expect, as I said,

02:23:10   I expect it to be a big focus.

02:23:11   I'm hoping that comes with some additional features.

02:23:14   One of the big things for iCloud Drive,

02:23:17   when I used it for a couple, I am now back on Dropbox,

02:23:19   just for various workflow reasons,

02:23:22   but when I was using only iCloud Drive

02:23:24   for that month or two, the biggest things I missed

02:23:28   were shared folders and public share links for files

02:23:31   that I could just like get a share link to this file

02:23:33   and send it to somebody.

02:23:34   And again, shared folders for things like,

02:23:37   let me share this folder with you guys

02:23:38   and we can drop files here and work them together.

02:23:40   This is something that Dropbox and its competitors

02:23:42   have offered basically forever.

02:23:44   It's a really big feature.

02:23:46   It's not easy to do these things,

02:23:49   but if Apple added share links and shared folders,

02:23:53   Those are major steps towards a lot more people

02:23:56   being able to use iCloud Drive

02:23:58   as their primary document sync thing

02:24:01   and to replace or never even use in the first place

02:24:03   things like Dropbox.

02:24:05   So that, I really hope they add that.

02:24:07   That is, I think, within the realm of possibility.

02:24:11   You know, these are the kinds of things

02:24:13   that Apple typically has not done aggressively or well.

02:24:16   But they already have the concept

02:24:18   of shared editing in Notes.

02:24:20   and there are shared photo albums and photos.

02:24:23   So there is this concept of inviting people

02:24:26   to collaborate with you on a resource that is in iCloud.

02:24:29   They have this infrastructure already in certain places.

02:24:32   Let's get one more, let's get shared folders

02:24:34   in iCloud Drive.

02:24:35   And I'd actually say the shared folders

02:24:37   are more likely for them to do

02:24:39   than the public share links for files,

02:24:41   'cause that's more of like a--

02:24:43   - A web thing and Apple's allergic to the web, yeah.

02:24:45   - Yeah, and it has piracy concerns and things like that,

02:24:48   so I'm not sure they would do that.

02:24:50   I think that's less likely, but shared folders

02:24:53   would be a huge thing, I really hope they do that.

02:24:56   - I'm still terrified of iCloud Drive.

02:24:58   - Me too, me too.

02:24:59   - Also, one thing they might do for iCloud Drive

02:25:02   is Time Machine, 'cause a lot of the other services

02:25:06   like this have versioning for the files,

02:25:08   some kind of recovery or point in time or versioning

02:25:11   for resources that are stored in things like Dropbox.

02:25:13   It would be nice if they had that in iCloud Drive,

02:25:16   and they don't now.

02:25:17   - So they're playing catch up with a company

02:25:18   that refused to be purchased by them that they called just a feature back when Steve

02:25:21   Jobs was still alive. Here we are so many years later and they're still catching up

02:25:25   with that basic feature set of Dropbox.

02:25:27   You know, sometimes Jobs was wrong.

02:25:29   Well, he did try to buy them. It's more of a sour grape situation there. He was trying

02:25:36   to bring down that you should be happy that we're even talking to you. Your thing is just

02:25:40   a feature. But they were interested in buying them, so it's not like he was really saying

02:25:44   your thing is, yeah.

02:25:45   - Yeah.

02:25:46   - Who's trying to get it for a good price?

02:25:48   - Yeah.

02:25:49   - So I definitely think it could benefit strongly

02:25:52   from these things.

02:25:53   And if they called this time machine for iCloud Drive

02:25:57   versus if they called it versioning, who knows?

02:25:58   Doesn't really matter.

02:25:59   - That's confusing, but we'll see.

02:26:01   Do we have to go into a star field?

02:26:03   I missed a star field.

02:26:04   Do you miss a star field?

02:26:05   - I do.

02:26:06   - A little bit, yeah.

02:26:07   - 'Cause the current time machine interface is so boring

02:26:10   and ugh.

02:26:10   When it doesn't work, it's less exciting.

02:26:14   I also think service-wise, photos should and probably will

02:26:19   have finally sinking of the metadata,

02:26:23   of the object recognition, faces, places, all that stuff,

02:26:27   as we talked about last week.

02:26:29   I also think that it is very likely

02:26:31   that we're gonna see a little bit of promotion

02:26:33   for Apple News.

02:26:35   It's a thing Apple launched that, you know,

02:26:37   it's going somewhere, but I don't think

02:26:39   it's going massively quickly there.

02:26:42   So I think we're gonna see a little, you know,

02:26:44   So some kind of announcements of some kind of minor

02:26:45   improvements here and they're gonna push us to use it

02:26:48   a little bit more.

02:26:49   And finally in my services category,

02:26:52   I think we're gonna see stretch goal here,

02:26:55   group FaceTime finally.

02:26:57   We've had a couple little rumors here and there.

02:26:59   Taster's been talking about it a lot over the last year.

02:27:02   I think this is finally the time for group FaceTime.

02:27:06   Here's hoping that that gets in.

02:27:09   We had group iChat forever ago.

02:27:12   - Yeah, that's, now finally.

02:27:14   - And speaking of iChow, I know this is like a dorky thing,

02:27:16   but I would like to be able to share a document

02:27:18   in the old parlance, right?

02:27:20   Multiple people and also,

02:27:21   hey, let's all look at this photo together,

02:27:23   like to pull a photo from photos so we can all see it.

02:27:26   That's a feature that I frequently wish for.

02:27:28   - And maybe that'd be part of like the whole

02:27:30   file collaboration or the file management stuff.

02:27:34   - It's not collaboration, I just wanna see it.

02:27:35   Like I can't tell you how many times I've pointed

02:27:37   one iOS device at the screen of another

02:27:39   to show my parents who I'm FaceTiming with a photo.

02:27:42   - Yeah.

02:27:43   - So they don't have to leave the app

02:27:45   'cause you can't do both of them.

02:27:46   It's like, we have technology here.

02:27:48   I should be able to throw a photo up here.

02:27:49   Yeah, that sounds like the most keynote-worthy feature

02:27:52   of all the service things

02:27:53   'cause I really hope that they don't talk about Apple Music,

02:27:55   but multi-person FaceTime, so easy demo, crowd-pleaser.

02:27:58   Everybody loves it.

02:27:59   If they have it, it's a shoe-in for the keynote.

02:28:01   - Yeah.

02:28:02   And then finally, my final prediction for the night,

02:28:05   I think we will hear absolutely nothing

02:28:08   about iMessage apps.

02:28:10   They were announced last year, they launched,

02:28:14   we got some cool fun stickers out of it,

02:28:16   but I think the app platform itself beyond stickers

02:28:20   has gone basically nowhere.

02:28:23   There's a small chance we might see stickers on the Mac,

02:28:27   in the Mac version of it.

02:28:29   - Mac iMessage parody would be another thing

02:28:33   that they won't do because they don't care

02:28:34   that much about the Mac.

02:28:34   - Right, and it would never get the full blown app platform.

02:28:38   I think it would, at best, it would only get stickers.

02:28:41   But even that, I just think the iMessage platform,

02:28:45   it ended up being kind of like the watch.

02:28:48   It ended up being used for a much smaller subset

02:28:53   of what it could do than what I think

02:28:55   they probably intended or guessed.

02:28:57   They massively overdesigned the system

02:29:01   for apps to plug into iMessage when in reality,

02:29:04   what most people would want to do is have a few stickers

02:29:06   and call it a day.

02:29:07   And that hasn't been helped by the fairly awkward

02:29:12   and cumbersome and unintuitive interface

02:29:14   within messages to browse and add and manage

02:29:18   your different message apps.

02:29:19   There's room for that to make it a lot better

02:29:21   and maybe this would change things,

02:29:23   but I don't think it would change things enough.

02:29:25   I think ultimately iMessage apps were a thing that,

02:29:30   you know, they tried, but similar to tvOS

02:29:34   being like a massive app platform,

02:29:37   I just don't think it's really going anywhere.

02:29:39   - You know, I use the GIF Wrapped app in every capacity,

02:29:43   including the iMessage app, a lot.

02:29:46   I was really into stickers for like a day.

02:29:50   It wasn't a day, but it was very briefly

02:29:52   that I really enjoyed stickers.

02:29:53   And now I almost find it surprising

02:29:56   anytime somebody uses one in a conversation I'm in.

02:29:59   I don't have anything against them.

02:30:01   Like I'm not opposed to them.

02:30:03   Like I think a lot of people were when they first came out.

02:30:05   but I too have been largely underwhelmed

02:30:10   by iMessage offerings with the exception of gift wrapped

02:30:13   which is as perfect as it can be

02:30:16   given the world in which it lives.

02:30:19   - I mean in a lot of ways the iMessage apps and watch apps

02:30:23   and maybe even TV apps all suffer

02:30:26   from the long standing thing I always say

02:30:28   which is don't fight against the smartphone

02:30:30   or don't bet against the smartphone.

02:30:32   In most of these cases,

02:30:34   you could go and use this other kind of app for this app

02:30:39   that you're trying to do, but in most of these cases,

02:30:42   it's easier and faster and it's already in your head,

02:30:46   you already have the habits to just go launch the app

02:30:48   and just do whatever you wanna do from the app,

02:30:50   like from the main app, rather than going

02:30:53   to these weird little extension points

02:30:54   and doing stuff there.

02:30:55   There are some cases where it makes sense to do that,

02:30:58   but I think those cases are a lot fewer and lesser used

02:31:04   than what maybe Apple intended or guessed

02:31:07   when launching these platforms.

02:31:08   And in reality, almost every Messages app I've seen

02:31:12   that isn't stickers, you could just do it from the app

02:31:16   almost as well, if not better.

02:31:19   And it turns out that's just what most people do.

02:31:21   And it is possible to make an awesome Messages app,

02:31:26   but again, the system of managing and installing them

02:31:28   and everything is so cumbersome

02:31:29   that a lot of people just don't do it.

02:31:31   So I think they're fighting against the convenience

02:31:35   and inertia of the full-blown app,

02:31:39   which everyone knows how to do already

02:31:41   and everyone is already using for these things.

02:31:43   So it's like, I don't know,

02:31:44   I feel like it's a losing battle there.

02:31:47   - Speaking of Casey and stickers and messages,

02:31:49   it reminds me of the one feature of iOS

02:31:51   that they do need to add that will benefit phone users

02:31:53   and everybody, Emoji Search.

02:31:56   (laughing)

02:31:58   Fair point.

02:31:59   How long do we have to wait for that?

02:32:00   That would be a massive crowd pleaser.

02:32:02   It's almost like they think they added it when they added that thing where it suggests

02:32:05   the emoji.

02:32:06   Like, "Oh, we have emoji search.

02:32:07   Just start typing the word and we'll give you the suggested list of emojis."

02:32:10   It's kind of true, but that just feels like the wrong way to do it.

02:32:14   Like, you know how many times I drag downward on the emoji picker expecting a search field

02:32:18   to appear and forgetting for the millionth time that it doesn't, that it's the one thing

02:32:22   on iOS that you can't drag downward to see a search field appear at the top?

02:32:26   Oh, emoji search.

02:32:27   Maybe I just need to memorize where everything is, but I spent so long trying to find popcorn

02:32:32   the other day before I just gave up and did a web search for it so I could copy and paste

02:32:35   it into a tweet.

02:32:36   Oh my goodness, that's so sad.

02:32:37   Now it's in the food section.

02:32:40   Can't find it.

02:32:41   Tiny little images, too many of them, scrolling, scrolling.

02:32:43   All right, so what else are we looking forward to?

02:32:47   Maybe that wouldn't be covered in the keynote or something that's different.

02:32:51   So I'll seed the conversation with a couple of thoughts.

02:32:54   I'm interested to see what San Jose is like.

02:32:56   I'm kind of excited that Apple seems to be more involved

02:33:01   with the ancillary goings on around the conference.

02:33:06   They're putting up a booth for podcasters,

02:33:09   which we will not be leveraging in part,

02:33:12   but not exclusively because Marco doesn't have

02:33:14   a WWDC ticket and it stands to reason you need one

02:33:17   to get through the door to go to the studio.

02:33:20   But it's certainly--

02:33:21   - I think the bigger limitation is that it's limited

02:33:23   to 60 minute blocks.

02:33:24   There's no way our show is under an hour.

02:33:27   - Yeah, certainly not.

02:33:28   Given that we've just spent two and a half hours

02:33:31   blabbing about what could possibly happen,

02:33:33   let alone what will and did.

02:33:36   But anyway, that's kind of cool.

02:33:38   They've been, over the years, embracing community events

02:33:41   like Layers and AppCamp for Girls and the talk show

02:33:44   and AltConf and things of that nature.

02:33:47   So I'm looking forward to seeing kind of what

02:33:50   San Jose brings to the table and what it has to offer.

02:33:53   And additionally, and completely wildly unrelated,

02:33:57   I am super excited to play Mario Kart

02:34:01   against all my friends in person.

02:34:04   And speaking of, Marco made a reference

02:34:07   to his packing list for WWDC,

02:34:10   and actually had dropped an image in the chat room,

02:34:12   which I forgot to add to the show notes,

02:34:14   so probably won't be there.

02:34:16   But I spied something interesting on that list, Marco.

02:34:20   Would you like to tell us about that?

02:34:23   The list ends with Nintendo switch and pro controller question mark.

02:34:29   Who's Nintendo switch would you be bringing Marco?

02:34:32   Tiff's.

02:34:33   Are you sure?

02:34:34   Yeah.

02:34:35   No, I didn't get a second one.

02:34:36   No, I'm surprised.

02:34:37   It's our family.

02:34:38   It's our family switch.

02:34:40   Tiff is a wonderful, wonderful wife.

02:34:43   Wow.

02:34:44   And she, after upon hearing the previous discussions, she decided to grant me permission to take

02:34:50   her switch.

02:34:51   - Did Adam grant you permission?

02:34:53   Does he even know it's going?

02:34:55   - I don't think he knows.

02:34:57   We will find out, but.

02:34:59   - Just wait until he says, "Time to play Zelda, Mommy."

02:35:02   - Yeah, then you're gonna pay for that.

02:35:03   - Yeah, I'm hoping that doesn't happen,

02:35:06   but I know in reality it probably will,

02:35:07   and it's gonna be, it's just doing me a big favor here.

02:35:10   And I will not forget that.

02:35:13   - No, that's awesome, that's very kind of her.

02:35:15   All right, so John, what are you looking forward to

02:35:18   in the not keynote parts of the conference.

02:35:22   - On earlier shows I said warmer weather,

02:35:24   but now that I've actually seen a weather report,

02:35:25   maybe it's too warm.

02:35:27   Because it's getting to the point where

02:35:30   I'll feel like I'll be hot outside,

02:35:32   but in the blasting air conditioning of the indoor spaces,

02:35:35   I'll still need to carry with me something warmer

02:35:37   so I don't freeze to death.

02:35:38   So I guess I suppose that's preferable to the WWDC thing

02:35:41   where the outdoors is freezing.

02:35:43   We'll see. (laughing)

02:35:45   But anyway, at any rate, there should be more sun.

02:35:47   - At the very least, and maybe people will actually

02:35:49   get to see the various nerdy t-shirts that I wear,

02:35:51   because I'll actually not be wearing a t-shirt

02:35:53   underneath a long sleeve thing.

02:35:54   - Excellent, Marco.

02:35:57   - I am incredibly excited to do all these podcasts,

02:36:01   to do live shows out there, to meet people,

02:36:05   to laugh at how big Jon's wallet is,

02:36:08   all the wonderful things we get to do

02:36:09   when we meet in person, I'm looking forward to that.

02:36:12   It's gonna be-- - I'll show you

02:36:13   my metal credit card.

02:36:15   - Yeah, it's gonna be fun, and I like seeing

02:36:17   everybody, seeing all my friends, making new friends,

02:36:20   and yeah, I'm excited about Layers, and I'm going to that.

02:36:24   That's gonna be fun, and yeah,

02:36:26   it's gonna be a very, very busy week,

02:36:29   but busy in all the good ways.

02:36:30   We're gonna have lots of, presumably,

02:36:32   lots of good, exciting stuff coming out of Apple.

02:36:35   We're gonna have lots of new APIs to play with.

02:36:37   We're gonna have a huge batch of new people

02:36:39   installing my app on beta one, telling me how it breaks,

02:36:42   and complaining that I haven't fixed it yet.

02:36:44   It's gonna be glorious and I look forward to this week,

02:36:47   every year and yeah.

02:36:49   Thanks to our three sponsors this week,

02:36:51   Casper, Betterment and Jet.

02:36:53   And we will see you next week, live from WODC.

02:36:58   (upbeat music)

02:37:00   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

02:37:02   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

02:37:05   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:37:08   ♪ Oh it was accidental ♪

02:37:11   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

02:37:13   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:37:15   'Cause it was accidental

02:37:17   (it was accidental)

02:37:18   It was accidental

02:37:19   (accidental)

02:37:21   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

02:37:26   And if you're into Twitter

02:37:29   You can follow them

02:37:31   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:37:35   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:37:40   ♪ A-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N ♪

02:37:42   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

02:37:45   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A ♪

02:37:47   ♪ It's accidental ♪

02:37:49   ♪ It's accidental ♪

02:37:50   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

02:37:53   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:37:54   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:37:55   ♪ Tech broadcast ♪

02:37:57   ♪ So long ♪

02:37:59   - So is it legal to wear shorts in San Jose?

02:38:05   'Cause like I know, maybe we should ask the Europeans.

02:38:07   - I know a lot of people consider shorts

02:38:10   to be like a huge fashion faux pas

02:38:12   and that men should never wear shorts.

02:38:14   - Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

02:38:15   why are we asking Europeans?

02:38:16   This is America, dammit.

02:38:17   - Yeah, they don't really have weather over there.

02:38:19   They don't have like real heat.

02:38:21   They don't even have air conditioning.

02:38:23   Like they don't know what to talk about.

02:38:25   - They are wholly unqualified to weigh in

02:38:27   on this particular discussion.

02:38:30   - All right, good.

02:38:30   - I don't care what they have to say.

02:38:31   - So, 'cause it seems like the weather's gonna be

02:38:33   in the '80s, right?

02:38:35   And whatever that is in Celsius, I don't care.

02:38:36   You guys don't have hot weather.

02:38:37   So in America, it's gonna be like in the 80s, right?

02:38:39   (laughing)

02:38:40   'Cause to me, like 80s means shorts.

02:38:43   - Well, if you're spending your whole day

02:38:44   inside an air-conditioned building,

02:38:46   maybe you won't be indoors as much as we are,

02:38:48   but that's my concern,

02:38:51   like that I actually will be hot outside with pants,

02:38:54   but that there's no way I would wear shorts,

02:38:56   not for fashion reasons,

02:38:57   but just because I would be freezing inside

02:38:59   what is surely the super-degree air-conditioned

02:39:01   whatever convention center where all the sessions are.

02:39:03   - Actually, this is the problem with shorts,

02:39:06   is that you want to wear them outside,

02:39:08   but you can't wear them in air conditioning

02:39:10   'cause then you freeze.

02:39:11   And not to mention the fact that half the world

02:39:14   thinks that you're committing some kind of

02:39:16   massive fashion crime by wearing shorts.

02:39:18   Also, I will mount the defense of cargo shorts.

02:39:21   I think that non-cargo shorts look a little bit weird.

02:39:26   Like cargo shorts, I admit, are not like

02:39:29   the best looking things in the world,

02:39:30   but I think non-cargo shorts look weirdly flat.

02:39:35   I don't know. I think you have a cargo shorts fetish or something. I think non-cargo shorts look like shorts.

02:39:40   Marco, do you have any idea how much email you/we are going to get thanks to this?

02:39:46   I don't care. I'll be in California. I'll delete it all.

02:39:49   I don't answer your email in California.

02:39:52   Do you answer email ever? No.

02:39:54   Yeah, I've gotten accustomed to the

02:39:58   completely bananas San Francisco weather, which has perks but also has plenty of drawbacks, too.

02:40:05   This is going to be a definite change and I think what it's going to amount to is I will probably end up choosing comfort inside

02:40:14   Over comfort outside, but you will probably see me rolling into these events

02:40:18   With a light sheen on my face. I've gotten sweaty walking between buildings. Yeah, there's gonna be even more sweaty nerds

02:40:26   I feel like that's a good safe prediction sweatier nerds that we never see 2016 2017 whatever the hell year it is

02:40:34   Man, we'll see what happens, but I'm looking forward to I'm super excited to see you too. I'm super excited to see all our mutual friends

02:40:39   I'm just I'm stoked. I'm happy to have a ticket to the big show this year since I missed out last year

02:40:44   I'm just super duper pumped

02:40:46   [BEEPING]