221: Personal Body Chemistry


00:00:00   Real-time follow-up, as of approximately 10 or so minutes ago, I am now an uncle.

00:00:05   Hey, congratulations!

00:00:06   Hey!

00:00:06   Do you intend to be a creepy uncle or a fun uncle or some other kind of uncle?

00:00:12   I hadn't even thought about it, but uh...

00:00:14   I mean, you gotta think about these things.

00:00:16   Casey's gonna try to be the cool uncle, we already know that.

00:00:18   The question is, the question is, what is he going to be?

00:00:20   Oh, that is, that's true.

00:00:21   [laughter]

00:00:24   That is 100 percent, that is 100 percent accurate.

00:00:28   I wish I could deny it, but that is absolutely accurate.

00:00:34   So I wanted to spend a moment and talk about the somewhat political section of our last

00:00:40   episode.

00:00:42   And we got a lot of feedback.

00:00:44   We got a lot of good feedback.

00:00:45   We got a lot of bad feedback.

00:00:48   But one thing that was common that I think was on me that I wanted to apologize to listeners

00:00:52   for is, at one point in the heat of getting fired up, or in the midst of getting fired

00:00:58   up, I had said in so many words, you know, "If you disagree with me, you're a monster."

00:01:03   And name calling is not really a constructive way to have a reasoned debate. Not to say

00:01:08   that that debate was terribly reasoned anyway, but name calling does not really help the

00:01:12   scenario. And, you know, if I'm going to be grumpy about other people name calling, then

00:01:17   I should be grumpy about me doing it. And so, no snark intended. I really do apologize

00:01:22   for name calling. I stand by the general premise of what I said, which is to say I think that some

00:01:26   of the behaviors of those who want to take away healthcare, that is a monstrous behavior, but that

00:01:31   does not by necessity make somebody a monster. So I don't know, you guys can either confirm or deny

00:01:38   everything I've just said, but for what it's worth, I feel bad about that, and I wish I had

00:01:43   handled that a little bit better, despite by and large sticking by pretty much everything I said,

00:01:47   but the name calling doesn't help. I think you undercut yourself with the monstrous behaviors

00:01:51   thing because I'm not sure that distinction is particularly important, but we don't usually

00:01:56   talk about politics in the show, and I think we kind of accidentally talked about it,

00:01:59   which is fitting, because it was not on the topic list. It sort of slid right into it from

00:02:03   WikiTribune, which was on the topic list, and it ended up staying in the show unlike many other

00:02:08   similar discussions. But one of the main problems with any time that we get into

00:02:12   politics is that for the most part, the three of us are coming from the same place. Like,

00:02:18   we agree on the issues. And it's actually surprisingly difficult to talk about a controversial

00:02:26   political issue amongst three people who all agree with each other. And it's why we get the

00:02:31   complaints of like, you know, echo chamber, so on and so forth. The good thing and the bad thing

00:02:35   about podcasts is even though it's just the three of us talking about it, and we all agree,

00:02:39   in aggregate, it's not an echo chamber, because believe me, the opposing opinions are presented

00:02:45   to us, right? So we just don't get them in real time. It is delayed. But that's not, you know,

00:02:51   we're not doing a political debate show. But yeah, so when we're all talking about it, and we all

00:02:55   more or less agree, we're just like saying things that each one of us agrees about. There's not even

00:02:59   that much nuance to our disagreement. And it just kind of spirals off from there. And I don't,

00:03:03   I don't, it's difficult to, it's difficult to clarify our thinking on it when there's

00:03:08   essentially no opposition on the podcast itself. So that's a difficulty I always feel when,

00:03:13   when engaging those and when listening to them, always trying to look for an angle that is

00:03:17   illuminating rather than just the three of us venting, which occasionally happens. Occasionally

00:03:21   we got to vent and occasionally we're feeling bad about things. I'm surprised after the presidential

00:03:26   election, we didn't have a similar show. Somehow we avoided it, but it came out last week.

00:03:29   I have no regrets. I had a feeling, but like In an Outland says in the chat,

00:03:36   saying that people are monsters is counterproductive and makes the argument sound dumb.

00:03:39   and I would agree with that.

00:03:40   So I am sorry for that portion of the discussion.

00:03:43   The rest of it, I pretty much stick by.

00:03:44   - I think one thing that is really badly missing

00:03:49   in our culture is the ability to agree on some

00:03:55   cause and effect norms or being able to talk

00:03:59   about cause and effect without it being assumed to be,

00:04:03   or without it being politicized.

00:04:05   'Cause if we, the healthcare debate,

00:04:07   It's like when I was saying last week

00:04:09   about how I want people to actually think

00:04:12   through their arguments of,

00:04:13   well, how do we think people in society should be treated?

00:04:18   And how do we think the government should take care

00:04:20   of people or not take care of people?

00:04:22   I wish we could talk about that in, we as a society,

00:04:25   I wish we could talk about that

00:04:27   without it being so politically charged

00:04:29   and people immediately jumping down each other's throats

00:04:31   about their identities.

00:04:34   Because what we need to instead be able to talk about

00:04:37   like, you know, how do we want to treat people in our society who need some kind of help?

00:04:45   Do we want the standard of that to be that we should just let people fail and die and

00:04:51   starve or not? And if the answer is not, then how do we allocate these resources? How do

00:04:58   we pay for them? And I wish we could actually talk about that, but the second you give an

00:05:04   opinion either way on that. Whether you say, "I think society should help those less

00:05:10   fortunate," whether you think, you know, "We should provide for people and we should

00:05:14   like not let people fail too badly or starve or die," or whether you think that we should

00:05:21   just let people do all those things. That shouldn't be a U.S. Republican versus Democrat

00:05:29   thing, but it is. And so it's hard to say like, "Oh, we should stay away from political

00:05:35   topics or that every view is valid," when some of these views, people on both sides

00:05:43   think that it's not just politics, that it's like the basics of their identity or of human

00:05:49   standards of decency and obligations to each other. And it's not just political. It's

00:05:55   It's not like I think we should vote for the person

00:05:58   in the red versus the person in the blue or whatever else.

00:06:01   It's like I want people who aren't like me to die

00:06:05   or I want to help people.

00:06:08   And those shouldn't be political opinions.

00:06:10   Those should be like this is the one that we teach ourselves

00:06:13   and that we value because we're good people

00:06:16   and this is the other one.

00:06:17   But apparently that's not what these things are.

00:06:19   - But nobody wants people to die.

00:06:21   That's what people are just gonna say.

00:06:22   - No, no.

00:06:23   They very much do.

00:06:25   I mean, so that's the, I don't want to get into it again

00:06:27   'cause this is what it's supposed to be,

00:06:29   touching on this topic, but that's,

00:06:30   I feel like I can argue the other side pretty decently

00:06:34   to like the old other side, again,

00:06:36   I alluded to like the '80s when they used to make arguments

00:06:39   to say that actually we all agree

00:06:40   on what we want to accomplish,

00:06:41   it's just a difference of opinion

00:06:42   on how to best accomplish it.

00:06:43   - Right.

00:06:44   - That debate is a lot easier to have.

00:06:46   What you're getting at is it doesn't feel like

00:06:47   we're even unified on the goal.

00:06:49   But even though the consequences of these decisions

00:06:52   may be real, it's not connected in a straight line

00:06:55   in terms of I want people who aren't like me to die.

00:06:59   Like, I don't think you will get anybody

00:07:02   to own that opinion anywhere, right?

00:07:04   - Well, that's true, but the problem is

00:07:07   that people will very strongly own opinions

00:07:11   that precede that, but if you actually follow them

00:07:13   through the conclusions, then that is a penalty.

00:07:15   So, suppose somebody has a life-threatening illness

00:07:19   that is treatable, but they can't afford the treatment.

00:07:22   What should happen in this case?

00:07:24   Should our society find a way to pay for people

00:07:28   in these kinds of conditions to get treatment,

00:07:30   or should we let them die?

00:07:32   That is a fundamental argument that we have

00:07:37   seemingly about every 10 years.

00:07:39   And if you're on the side of we should help people,

00:07:42   it seems like you'd be a total monster,

00:07:45   to use Casey's word, right?

00:07:46   It seems like you'd be a total monster

00:07:48   to argue the other side of that,

00:07:49   to say like, you know, actually,

00:07:50   no, we should let people die.

00:07:52   Like, no, that's—but that actually—

00:07:53   But they don't want them to die.

00:07:55   They don't want them.

00:07:56   They're not wishing them ill.

00:07:57   They wish that if they could snap their fingers and cure them, they would say, "Yes, you're

00:08:00   cured.

00:08:01   We should totally do that."

00:08:02   It's just an unfortunate situation, and there's just, you know, debating the best

00:08:06   way to allocate scarce resources and to incentivize the right behaviorist and blah, blah, blah.

00:08:10   Like, we start shifting to the more intellectual argument towards it.

00:08:13   But when you connect it up to, like, malice, like, to say that people have malice towards

00:08:17   like it's not... and get it, ignoring the specifics of this thing more generally, the other general

00:08:23   topic on the political stuff is, this happens to me, this happens to everybody when you're

00:08:27   listening to someone talk about something, whether it's political or technological or anything on a

00:08:31   podcast, they will, especially things with two sides, red/blue, Mac PC, whatever it may be,

00:08:38   you know, the two-sided debate, they will address a thing like, "people who support x are wrong

00:08:46   because blah blah blah blah blah. And if people that support X are on a particular team and

00:08:52   you are also on that team but you don't support X, they'll say people who support X, here's

00:08:58   what I don't like about it. And people will get offended to say, well, I don't support

00:09:01   X, but I'm on the same team as the people who support X. And because you're yelling

00:09:05   at that person, I feel you're yelling at me. And it's very difficult to hold on to the

00:09:09   thread that says, look, if they are complaining about something that you don't believe, they're

00:09:14   not talking to you. You know what I mean? But when there are two teams, it's like, if

00:09:18   they're saying anything about my team, even though I agree with them on this specific

00:09:22   point, it's like they're attacking my team and I feel attacked. Like, are you trying

00:09:25   to say that I believe X? It's like, well, if you don't believe X, we're not talking

00:09:27   to you. And so, like, this is not addressed with you. But when there's two teams, and

00:09:33   it's on your team, you can't help but get pulled into it. And again, that happens with

00:09:37   everybody, especially with two-sided debates or, you know, actual sports teams, as the

00:09:41   case may be, where you can't wrap your mind around a player on your favorite sports team

00:09:45   maybe did something bad, but you really do love the sports team and you try to square

00:09:49   that circle so when someone says, "Hey, that person on that sports team did a bad thing,"

00:09:53   you say, "You be quiet!

00:09:54   He didn't do a bad thing!"

00:09:55   And really, in your heart of hearts, you also agree he did a bad thing, but you love the

00:09:58   sports team.

00:09:59   Right?

00:10:00   So, anyway, that's a difficulty, and when I'm listening to people talk about, you know,

00:10:06   it's to like or dislike a particular movie or a director or a TV show or, you know, Mac versus

00:10:13   PC things, it's very easy to think that they're talking about you or to you, ascribing to you

00:10:18   beliefs that you don't have, when you have to realize it's a broadcast medium and no one is

00:10:22   saying you specifically there believe these things. And if you don't, then don't take on the burden of

00:10:28   thinking that you're being reprimanded for something that you don't believe.

00:10:32   The good news, though, is that there are some universal truths in the world.

00:10:36   And speaking of sports, there are universal truths like Bill Belichick is a cheater and

00:10:41   Tom Brady really should not be playing football.

00:10:42   So anyway, let's talk about the back of the iPhone.

00:10:45   Adam Mork writes in to say, "My take on that rumor image with Touch ID on the back is that

00:10:52   it's a real schematic for a real prototype, but it's only for testing.

00:10:57   There have been more leaked schematics with no Touch ID on the back, and I'm surprised

00:11:00   that this has been debated in two episodes as an inevitability. In my opinion, this is

00:11:04   Adam, there is zero chance Apple releases a phone with such idea in the back. It's too

00:11:08   big of a paradigm shift in form and function. Apple has done more work for far less in the

00:11:12   past. I'd bet a lot of money it's under the screen at launch. It really feels like a deal-breaking

00:11:17   feature they would wait for. So I think to be clear, none of us were saying

00:11:21   that was inevitability merely that this was a supposed leak thing and that we could all

00:11:26   conceive of Apple releasing such a thing.

00:11:29   Obviously it would not be ideal, and obviously, you know, plan A is the thing under the screen.

00:11:34   But we were discussing it, because like, what if they did?

00:11:35   What if they couldn't get it under the screen?

00:11:37   Would they put it on the back?

00:11:38   Like, obviously, Apple doesn't want to if they want to do that thing on the screen.

00:11:41   It's totally cool, right?

00:11:43   But I, you know, as I said when we first started talking about this, I believe it is a thing

00:11:47   that Apple would do, because if the choice is between doing that and not having a new

00:11:53   phone form factor at all, they would totally do that.

00:11:57   But I also totally buy this, you know, this is not a slam dunk, this is just a random

00:12:00   drawing that could be totally fake and as I said we'll find out when the real phone

00:12:03   is released and we look at the millimeter sizing and if they got it down to three decimal

00:12:06   points, chances are that it was at the very least a real leak or something manufactured

00:12:12   based on the knowledge of what the phone would be like.

00:12:14   But yeah, could be a prototype, could be just a testing thing, it's hard to think of it

00:12:17   as being a prototype like that because it would take a lot of stuff to move around the

00:12:22   the touch ID to the back even just for testing because there's a bunch of other crap there

00:12:24   on the phone.

00:12:26   But anyway, for my part, I'm not tied to any one of these particular rumors and obviously

00:12:32   the plan A in both terms of rumors and in terms of what Apple would want to do is a

00:12:37   thing in the screen.

00:12:38   And so that's what I'm certainly hoping for, but if it doesn't arrive and the thing is

00:12:42   on the back, we won't all be flipping out because I feel like we will be acclimated

00:12:47   to that idea through these leaks.

00:12:49   All right.

00:12:50   Let's talk about dirty fabric on laptops

00:12:52   Sure, let's

00:12:55   This this is this is a little bit of an odd more than a little bit of an odd thing. So

00:13:02   to set some context the surface laptop has

00:13:07   Alkintara, is that how you pronounce it? I just just avoid it. Just just avoid it

00:13:12   Like we avoid all the words we can't pronounce just avoid it

00:13:14   And and so it has some sort of fabric II leathery something or other on it and that is to my understanding

00:13:20   including where your wrists sit. And that seems to me to be a really poor

00:13:26   choice for any human being of any kind. Because I remember having a poly book,

00:13:31   hi Steven Hackett, which is to say a white polycarbonate MacBook, and I had to

00:13:36   take a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser to that thing like once every couple weeks, or

00:13:40   deal with all of my wrist gunk and sweat and whatever and oils turning that thing

00:13:46   brown and it was gross. And that's plastic. Imagine fabric! And so there's a link to...

00:13:52   what is this? Boy Genius Report or something like that? I don't remember what BGR stands

00:13:56   for.

00:13:57   >> It's Brown's Booger.

00:13:58   >> Oh, fair enough. So we have a link to something. And they show an example of a surface with...

00:14:05   it appears to be a surface keyboard with some really gross wrist oils all over it because

00:14:09   clearly it's been used a lot. And that just strikes me as a poor choice. But I don't know,

00:14:13   maybe I'm missing something. What do you guys think?

00:14:15   When we talked about the fabric on the Surface laptop's last show, I was concerned about

00:14:22   the edges fraying and the difficulty of mating that material.

00:14:26   But more broadly, as this dirty fabric issue brings up, a laptop is something that gets

00:14:35   a lot of contact, even though you're not supposed to rest your wrists when you're typing.

00:14:39   People do.

00:14:41   And people's hands and wrists are going to be in contact with this thing very very frequently

00:14:46   during use.

00:14:48   And for anything like that, it's a good idea to make it out of a material that is durable

00:14:54   or washable or ideally both.

00:14:57   Because there is gunk on our hands.

00:14:59   And it is going to come off and go onto the thing that we're touching and there needs

00:15:03   to be some plan for that.

00:15:05   So on the iPhone screens, A, they're made of glass which is very hard material and easy

00:15:10   clean and B) they have that coating that tries to repel oil so that when you do try to wipe

00:15:13   all your gunk off it will come off easily.

00:15:16   And that's a good plan for the front of a cell phone that you're going to be touching

00:15:19   all the time.

00:15:20   Similarly for the track pads on Macs, I think we all remember the original track pads before

00:15:25   they were glass, they were, you know, various kinds of plastic, and over time the track

00:15:30   pads would get kind of shiny and slippery and worn down and discolored on the particular

00:15:34   parts that you touch them.

00:15:36   Moving to the glass track pad really helps solve that problem to keep it sort of uniformly

00:15:39   color colored and textured easy to clean because it is a part that you're

00:15:44   touching all the time. same thing with keycaps making them out of hard plastic

00:15:48   figuring out how to make keycaps so that the letters and numbers don't come off

00:15:51   I'm sure we have all met somebody who is some strain of X person which means that

00:15:56   they secrete oils from their bodies that wear the letters off of the keycaps

00:15:59   right some people just have I don't know it's if it's acidic or otherwise solvent

00:16:06   based secretions from their fingertips that will defeat almost any keyboard and leave

00:16:11   their keycaps perfectly smooth and featureless. But it's a challenge to...

00:16:15   Wait, people have acid fingers? That's awesome! I don't know if it's actually acid. All I

00:16:19   know is that some people, you know, if you look at some people's keyboards, they will

00:16:22   have the exact same keyboard as you and all the letters will be gone from like the home

00:16:25   row or like the E key and the return and stuff. And you're like, "Look, I'm using the same

00:16:29   keyboard as you for the same period of time. There's obviously some difference in our body

00:16:32   chemistry that is causing this to happen." Which is fine, like whatever, but the job

00:16:35   of making a keyboard is to make it easy to clean and make the little, you know, letters

00:16:40   resist wearing off. For a laptop, to cover it in fabric, fabric falls down in almost

00:16:46   all these categories. It is not easy to clean because anything that gets in there gets down

00:16:53   to the weave or whatever, and to really wash fabric, you put it in the washing machine,

00:16:57   and if you're lucky, that does a good job, but you're not putting your laptop in the

00:16:59   washing machine, so you've got a problem already.

00:17:02   To wash fabric you need moisture.

00:17:04   You need liquid, which unless you're Casey,

00:17:07   that's not going anywhere near your laptop.

00:17:08   - Yeah, and it still needs to pass through it.

00:17:11   Like it's not just gonna go on the surface.

00:17:13   And you wanna make it so that whatever does get on it

00:17:17   comes off easily, you know?

00:17:19   And the surface stays the same

00:17:22   if you have it from year to year.

00:17:23   And the fabric, fabric wears down and frays

00:17:25   and can get thin and rub through in spots

00:17:28   and so on and so forth.

00:17:29   So it is not a great solution for anything

00:17:31   you're gonna handle that much.

00:17:33   I mean, even clothes wear out,

00:17:35   'cause they're made of cloth, we put it on our body,

00:17:36   eventually you get holes in the knees

00:17:38   and holes in the pockets and they just fray.

00:17:41   So it is definitely a material

00:17:45   that you can't treat the same way you would treat

00:17:47   even Casey's plastic eye book.

00:17:49   And one of the problems with the plastic eye books

00:17:52   was they were white and they had some discoloration issues

00:17:56   that may not have been noticeable

00:17:57   if they were like a boring gray

00:18:00   or if the plastic could be formulated differently

00:18:03   if it was a different color,

00:18:04   but they were like very white and translucent

00:18:06   and that was a problem.

00:18:07   I think they probably could be cleaned pretty easily.

00:18:09   I don't know if they were porous or what,

00:18:10   but and even for the very, what,

00:18:13   the Blackbook also had similar problems

00:18:14   with the surface texture going.

00:18:16   Eventually Apple settled on materials

00:18:18   that are pretty darn resilient.

00:18:20   The aluminum and the finish they put on the aluminum,

00:18:22   it's not super glossy.

00:18:23   You know, it's like,

00:18:25   it's a finish that will stay looking the same

00:18:27   for pretty much the life of the thing

00:18:28   and combined with the glass trackpad and good keycaps and the glass screens,

00:18:32   you can have a Apple laptop that looks more or less the same,

00:18:36   plus or minus dense and maybe scratches, but in terms of color,

00:18:41   discoloration and finish many, many years later,

00:18:44   one of these fabric covered things, I think no matter how careful you are,

00:18:48   depending on your personal body chemistry and amount of crap on your hands,

00:18:53   not literally, but maybe literally, uh, it's going to be very difficult.

00:18:58   Very, very difficult to keep this thing looking like new with unwashable fabric coating the

00:19:03   surface where your hands are going to be.

00:19:06   So perhaps not a wise choice.

00:19:08   It is a differentiator.

00:19:09   It is a style difference.

00:19:11   As I mentioned last show, I think it's a style difference that doesn't go far enough because

00:19:14   it essentially looks like an Apple laptop that someone put a bunch of felt on top of,

00:19:18   which A, I think is not a good look and B, I think is APES Apple's design cues still too

00:19:23   strongly despite the fabric.

00:19:26   Anyway, be careful out there with your fabric-covered laptops.

00:19:30   One thing I will also point out, I was thinking about this earlier today, and as Casey's

00:19:33   talking about the plastic MacBook, it kind of reminded me of this, that it wasn't that

00:19:37   long ago that most of Apple's lower-end or consumer-grade products were plastic, and

00:19:44   you had to pay more to get the premium Pro ones that were metal.

00:19:49   And for all the complaining I do about some of Apple's product decisions or apathy or

00:19:53   there are various things nearby there.

00:19:57   The move to pretty much everything being made

00:20:00   out of premium materials is appreciated.

00:20:03   That is something that not every brand does,

00:20:05   in fact no other brand does it as far as I know

00:20:07   in computing.

00:20:08   Every laptop, every Mac that Apple sells

00:20:12   is now made of metal.

00:20:14   Every phone now is made of decent metal

00:20:17   and has a decent industrial design.

00:20:19   There are no more cheap plastic options,

00:20:21   unless I'm forgetting something big,

00:20:22   as far as you can tell, there aren't any.

00:20:25   Everything now is made of the nice materials

00:20:28   that, for the most part, that age well

00:20:31   and things like that.

00:20:32   - Apple TV is plastic, right?

00:20:34   - Oh yeah, but you don't touch that or move it anywhere.

00:20:37   - It's nice looking plastic,

00:20:38   and you totally don't touch it.

00:20:40   - Yeah, same deal with time capsule.

00:20:41   Thanks, Tipster.

00:20:42   Yeah, I forgot about the time capsule.

00:20:43   Everybody forgot about the time capsule.

00:20:45   Apple forgot about the time capsule.

00:20:47   - But they don't sell it.

00:20:48   They're out of the router business.

00:20:49   - I think they still are for sale.

00:20:50   I think they just weren't going to make more of them.

00:20:52   - Really?

00:20:53   - Anyway, it doesn't matter.

00:20:55   Anyway, so yeah, just nice little note

00:20:57   that it's nice that now everything

00:20:58   is made of good materials.

00:21:00   - Someone in the chat mentioned the iPhone 5C,

00:21:02   which is my immediate thought with plastic.

00:21:03   I think the iPhone 5C shows that plastic

00:21:06   can look and feel premium,

00:21:08   because I think the 5C was a great design,

00:21:11   a great external design for a phone.

00:21:13   Every time I see them in public,

00:21:14   they look like they're brand new.

00:21:16   Like, you know, it's just a very hard, durable,

00:21:20   shiny, probably really easy to clean plastic that doesn't get dirty, right?

00:21:25   So it can be done.

00:21:27   And you know, you mentioned the Apple TV, it's a similar type of thing that even if

00:21:30   people were handling that I think it would be very resistant.

00:21:32   Because if you just make it out of, like plastic is not just one material, it's a million different

00:21:35   formulations.

00:21:36   And Apple sort of learned the hard way which formulations do and don't work from the soft

00:21:41   plastic on the screen of the first iPod Nano, you know, to the discoloring Macbooks and

00:21:47   other materials they tried like the titanium power book that had problems with the paint

00:21:52   staying on.

00:21:53   They eventually set it on a solution that works well and they spread it throughout their

00:21:56   line which is a good idea but I'm not going to count out plastic entirely but I think

00:22:00   I'm going to kind of count out fabric entirely as something that you want to put on the "wrist

00:22:07   rest area" of a laptop.

00:22:08   Like no matter how you go to the furniture store and they say "we've got the magic coating

00:22:14   that repels water and you can throw like jello pudding on this couch and nothing will happen

00:22:18   and that's true until that coating wears away and then you know then you know it's anything

00:22:25   that you're going to rub something up against it's just it's not going to last so I suppose

00:22:30   they could work on was that Simon izing or whatever all sorts of super duper waterproofing

00:22:36   coating for fabrics but a that they make the fabric feel more like plastic at that point

00:22:41   and B, even those wear off eventually.

00:22:43   - Can I pay the extra 50 cents at the car wash

00:22:45   to get it re-simonized?

00:22:47   - I don't know what that, I'm just pulling that

00:22:49   word out of my head.

00:22:50   I don't know where that came from.

00:22:51   - I believe that's wax at the car wash,

00:22:53   but I'm not positive.

00:22:54   (laughs)

00:22:56   Yes, I go through drive-through car washes.

00:22:58   You know, don't at me, bro, or whatever.

00:23:00   - I can't believe you'd do that.

00:23:01   I wouldn't do that.

00:23:02   I'm sure Casey wouldn't.

00:23:03   - I decided a few years ago, after first doing it

00:23:07   for cars where I didn't know better or didn't care,

00:23:10   And then I started getting nicer cars

00:23:12   and people like you guys scared me

00:23:14   into not going through automatic car washes

00:23:16   and I didn't want to get my clear cut all swirly or whatever.

00:23:19   And the result of that was I had really nice cars

00:23:21   that were always incredibly embarrassingly dirty.

00:23:24   - You live in upstate New York,

00:23:25   that's what you're supposed to have.

00:23:26   - So instead, I decided, starting with my current car,

00:23:31   I decided I'm not going to care anymore,

00:23:33   I'm just gonna go through the car wash when I feel like it.

00:23:35   And my car has been way cleaner as a result.

00:23:38   And I don't care.

00:23:39   - It's just a lease.

00:23:40   care all the scratches that are getting from little bits of grit that are on those flabby

00:23:43   things scratching your car all over the place. It's not yours.

00:23:46   And honestly I don't really notice. Like I know what to look for. It is a little bit

00:23:50   different now that my car is red. Like it's way more noticeable on black. On the red it's

00:23:55   a lot less noticeable or it's noticeable at fewer angles I guess. So I don't care. And

00:24:00   most of the time from almost every angle my car looks better now that I'm going through

00:24:05   car washes whenever I feel like it,

00:24:07   rather than when I would go like five months

00:24:10   without getting a car wash, 'cause I had to wait

00:24:12   until I could go to the place that took an hour,

00:24:14   or when Casey visited.

00:24:16   - Pretty much.

00:24:17   Oh, to be blissfully ignorant again.

00:24:19   And you know, it turns out maybe the black cars

00:24:21   weren't such a good idea.

00:24:22   Moving on.

00:24:23   - Oh! - Oh, man.

00:24:25   Amartya Banerjee, and I'm sorry if I pronounced that wrong,

00:24:28   asks, "Do you folks think that the popularity

00:24:30   "of touch input on Windows laptops

00:24:32   "could just be attributed to the terrible trackpads?

00:24:34   that given a good trackpad, having a fridge toaster OS in a laptop form factor is unnecessary.

00:24:41   It's very hard for me to say because I've never had a touchscreen laptop, and I've only

00:24:45   ever used them a couple times, and I found them very frustrating because I wasn't used

00:24:49   to being able to touch the screen, and maybe I grazed it accidentally and all of a sudden

00:24:54   my cursor moved, or maybe I was stabbing at it like a monster, who knows.

00:24:58   But anyway, because I've never really understood the appeal of it, I don't think that it's

00:25:04   a trackpad problem, although I do know that Windows computers have just woefully terrible

00:25:10   trackpads.

00:25:11   I think that people just genuinely do like having touchscreen laptops.

00:25:15   Like anyone who I've ever spoken to who has a touchscreen Windows laptop, pretty much

00:25:20   every single one of them enjoys it and likes having the option of stabbing at the screen.

00:25:24   I don't get that.

00:25:25   It seems kind of kooky to me, but that's pretty universally my anecdotal experience.

00:25:31   What do you guys think?

00:25:32   - I mean, we've all been around computers for a long time now.

00:25:34   We know that there are screen textures and non-screen textures.

00:25:38   So maybe the screen texture is finally just one.

00:25:40   - Yeah.

00:25:41   - As long as they don't touch my screen.

00:25:43   I know.

00:25:44   I agree with Casey that, yes, they have travel track pads, but this is a separate issue.

00:25:48   People like to touch the screen.

00:25:49   And I don't think they do it super duper often.

00:25:51   They just like the option of being able to do it because, I mean, just think of the generation

00:25:54   is going to grow up with the expectation that every screen is touchable. To have one that's

00:25:57   not just seems broken, it doesn't mean that you're going to spend the vast majority of your time on

00:26:02   your traditionally laptop-shaped piece of hardware stabbing at the screen. I mean, you're going to be

00:26:07   typing on the keyboard, you're going to be using the trackpad, and every once in a while you're

00:26:09   going to stab at the screen, and it's just all of a piece. And I think it mostly comes down to

00:26:14   software. Like, if the touch targets are frustratingly small, as I think they would be if you

00:26:19   just slap the touchscreen on a Mac, that won't be a good experience. But if you're using something

00:26:24   like a modern version of Windows where a lot of the applications and parts of the OS make an

00:26:29   effort to have touchable targets, whatever, I think it's fine. And I don't think it has to do

00:26:34   with the bad trackpads. Because honestly, we trackpad connoisseurs, Marco in particular,

00:26:41   with his hatred of the ForceTrust trackpad, may be picky about these things. Regular people cannot

00:26:46   distinguish between the worst Windows trackpad and the best Apple one.

00:26:52   Because I mean I think most people have trackpad skills that are

00:26:58   more in line with mine. I am not a tactical wizard. I am not particularly

00:27:03   graceful with the trackpad. I think I'm closer to the average and being a closer

00:27:08   to the average trackpad person I know how clumsy it feels and that is the

00:27:14   overwhelming factor in trackpad use, not the quality of the trackpad, or the mouse tracking,

00:27:19   or the size of the trackpad, or how sensitive it is, or whatever. No matter how good the

00:27:23   trackpad is, I feel clumsy. So I think that's how most people feel, and that's why if you

00:27:26   were trying to put the two trackpads, maybe they would notice the Apple one is bigger,

00:27:29   but other than that, they're like, "Yeah, whatever, they're both trackpads." So no,

00:27:33   that's not the reason they like touch screens.

00:27:37   I think that's a little bit aggressive. I think that certainly not everyone notices

00:27:41   how far improved the Apple trackpads are,

00:27:43   but I think a lot of quote unquote normal people do notice.

00:27:48   Certainly they notice the size, just like you said,

00:27:50   but I think that it's noticed more often than most.

00:27:52   I've heard people that are not like super nerds say to me,

00:27:55   "Oh, you know, I got this Mac,

00:27:56   "and man, that trackpad's much better."

00:27:58   It doesn't happen a lot, to your point,

00:28:00   but it does happen for sure.

00:28:01   - It's kind of one of those things

00:28:02   where if they haven't tried the better one,

00:28:04   they're not sitting there using their Windows laptop

00:28:05   and you come up to them, "Man, how can you use that trackpad?"

00:28:07   They're like, "What? It's fine."

00:28:08   Now, if you were to give them an Apple laptop

00:28:10   for a week and they had to go back,

00:28:11   Maybe they could tell the difference,

00:28:12   but I don't hear it as a pain point.

00:28:14   I don't hear it as a reason

00:28:15   people don't like their computers.

00:28:17   Or if I go to have to use someone's Windows computer at work

00:28:19   and I say to the person,

00:28:21   "I don't know how you work on this trackpad,"

00:28:23   they'll be like, "What, what's wrong with it? It's fine."

00:28:24   'Cause they don't have anything to compare it to

00:28:26   and it is the same awkward little thing

00:28:29   that they're just used to using.

00:28:30   Or they just use the keyboard all the time.

00:28:32   - Don't forget the culture of being a Windows user,

00:28:34   which is like everything kind of doesn't work.

00:28:38   And so you just, that's what you expect as normal.

00:28:40   you don't even realize how much better things can be

00:28:43   when things work and are thoughtfully designed.

00:28:45   Because on Windows, you're just constantly

00:28:47   lying on a bed of nails,

00:28:49   and you don't even notice it after a while.

00:28:52   - Sometimes I go to use someone's Windows laptop at work

00:28:54   and they have four buttons,

00:28:56   two above and two below the track pad,

00:28:58   or some other weird arrangement

00:28:59   where there's basically redundant left and right

00:29:00   mouse buttons on the surface of the laptop,

00:29:03   and I'll try to do it and nothing will happen.

00:29:05   Like, oh yeah, that set of buttons doesn't work,

00:29:07   use these ones.

00:29:08   (laughing)

00:29:09   continue to tolerate and use this thing, you consider it not broken when some of the buttons

00:29:14   and some of the major buttons on the front of it don't work. You just get around. You

00:29:17   just have to use that button. Well, no, no, no. What probably is happening

00:29:20   there is it probably has both an inferior trackpad pointing device and the unequivocally

00:29:26   superior trackpoint style pointing device. And the buttons above the trackpad are for

00:29:32   the trackpoint, the weapon mouse. Yeah, that's probably it.

00:29:35   And oftentimes that'll get turned off because people are wrong and they use the trackpad

00:29:39   instead. Before the entire world, well actually it's me, remember that I'm basing this opinion

00:29:44   on a pre-gesture time. Now the gestures are a thing, and trackpads honestly are the better

00:29:49   approach. But before gestures were a thing, I tell you, all you people who laugh at that

00:29:55   little nubbin mouse, you're wrong. It was way better. Anyway, Cory Floyd wrote in to

00:30:00   say that they work at Wikimedia and heard our latest show discussing the Wicked Tribune

00:30:06   Project and they wanted to kind of, not necessarily correct, but bring up a few things.

00:30:12   WikiTribune isn't affiliated with Wikipedia or Wikimedia in any way, which has been causing

00:30:17   some confusion in the media.

00:30:18   This is Corey still.

00:30:19   I think this mostly came across in your episode, but I also wanted to include a few other interesting

00:30:23   specifics below.

00:30:25   WikiTribune is based on WordPress, not MediaWiki, like Wikipedia and its sister projects.

00:30:31   Additionally, it is not actually developed or otherwise maintained by existing Wikimedia

00:30:36   or Wikipedia community.

00:30:37   And finally, Wikimedia also has an existing, albeit unsuccessful, project called Wikineews,

00:30:43   which is in some ways a competitor to Wikitribune in the first place.

00:30:46   And that's it.

00:30:47   Wikineews.org.

00:30:48   We'll put all these links in the show notes.

00:30:49   So I've got Jimmy Wales.

00:30:51   That is the connecting thread.

00:30:52   But don't be confused about the fact that this is a Wikipedia spinoff, because it's

00:30:56   not.

00:30:59   We are sponsored this week by Warby Parker with prescription eyeglasses starting at just

00:31:03   $95 including prescription lenses.

00:31:05   To learn more, visit warbyparker.com/atp.

00:31:08   Warby Parker makes buying glasses online easy and risk-free.

00:31:13   Here's how they do it.

00:31:14   They have a home try-on program and this is totally free.

00:31:17   What you do is you pick out up to five pairs of glasses.

00:31:20   They ship them to you.

00:31:21   You can try them on and get feedback or look at yourself in the mirror or post selfies

00:31:25   or whatever you want for five days.

00:31:27   And there's no obligation to buy

00:31:29   because they ship it to you for free

00:31:31   and then they give you a prepaid return shipping label,

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00:31:35   You can see for yourself, once again,

00:31:36   warbyparker.com/atp.

00:31:39   Their glasses start at just $95,

00:31:42   including prescription lenses,

00:31:43   and it's with anti-glare and anti-scratch coating.

00:31:46   These are nice glasses, they come in a wonderful case

00:31:48   with a nice cleaning cloth.

00:31:50   My wife has a few pairs of these

00:31:51   and they really are fantastic.

00:31:53   We are big fans of Warby Parker here.

00:31:55   And they look good too.

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00:31:58   Warby Parker distributes a pair of glasses

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00:32:03   around the world.

00:32:04   So check out the Home Try-On Kit to see for yourself

00:32:07   how great Warby Parker's glasses are.

00:32:09   You will be surprised how easy it is.

00:32:12   They have various previewing tools even online

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00:32:17   Their app can also help you out.

00:32:19   They have an app in the App Store

00:32:20   with a Home Try-On companion feature.

00:32:22   You can take pictures of you wearing the frames,

00:32:24   you can stitch it into a video,

00:32:25   you can share it with friends to help pick a winner.

00:32:28   And all this, again, for just $95 starting for a pair

00:32:32   of glasses, including prescription lenses,

00:32:35   glasses should not cost as much as an iPhone.

00:32:36   They should be affordable, so I'm gonna show

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00:32:46   to get your free home try-on kit.

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00:32:50   risk-free, no obligation to buy.

00:32:52   Check it out today, warbyparker.com/atp.

00:32:55   Thank you very much to Warby Parker for sponsoring our show.

00:32:58   (upbeat music)

00:33:00   - So another Amazon cylinder that isn't a cylinder thing

00:33:05   came out and I really don't care.

00:33:09   So does somebody who actually gives a crap

00:33:10   wanna talk about this, Marco?

00:33:11   - And this is more of a three-dimensional trapezoid.

00:33:14   - Ah, fair enough, yeah, good point.

00:33:15   - This is what Marco said.

00:33:16   We've got a quote from someone named Marco

00:33:18   who wrote into the show to say,

00:33:20   "I'd upgrade our kitchen echo to this in a heartbeat," he says, looking at a then-rumored

00:33:24   picture of the actual Echo show.

00:33:27   Yeah.

00:33:28   So, Marco, have you upgraded your kitchen echo to this now that your heart has beaten?

00:33:32   No, I haven't, because it isn't out yet.

00:33:34   But I did place a pre-order, and it will be here on, allegedly, June 28th.

00:33:38   So we will see when that comes.

00:33:41   Basically the gist of it is, you know, the Amazon Echo is quite wonderful to many people,

00:33:47   myself included.

00:33:49   And my family has really gotten into it.

00:33:51   We use it all the time.

00:33:52   And it lives in our kitchen, and it is wonderful

00:33:56   for playing music around the house,

00:33:58   for setting timers, especially while cooking.

00:34:02   Tiff uses it all the time for things like checking

00:34:04   the weather in the morning when running around

00:34:06   and getting Adam ready for school.

00:34:08   So there are a number of use cases during the day

00:34:12   where it would be nice to have a screen.

00:34:15   For instance, the timers that I just mentioned,

00:34:18   it would be nice to see how much time is left

00:34:20   to see them counting down.

00:34:22   If there ever becomes a way to set multiple named timers,

00:34:25   right now you can set multiple timers

00:34:26   but you can't name them.

00:34:27   I'm pretty sure the Google Home you can name them

00:34:30   but the Echo does not support that at the moment.

00:34:32   But again, like when you have multiple timers going

00:34:34   it would be nice to see them visually

00:34:36   and maybe to have little touch buttons

00:34:37   to pause or cancel them individually

00:34:39   'cause right now it's kind of,

00:34:40   you kind of can't do it very well via voice

00:34:43   if you have multiple ones going.

00:34:45   When Tiff checks the weather in the morning.

00:34:47   First of all, these pictures show it kind of always

00:34:50   having this home screen that has the clock

00:34:52   and the current weather conditions

00:34:54   on the screen all the time.

00:34:55   So that would be nice too, to just not even have to

00:34:58   ask at certain things.

00:34:59   If you're just walking by, you can glance at it

00:35:01   and see the weather.

00:35:02   So there's all sorts of wonderful things like that

00:35:04   where many of the uses that we currently use the Echo for

00:35:08   would be nicer sometimes or all the time with a screen.

00:35:12   Now, there is a fair argument to be made.

00:35:15   "Why don't you just put an iPad right there

00:35:18   "and just use an iPad all the time

00:35:20   "and enable the Hey Dingus feature on it

00:35:22   "and just use that?"

00:35:24   And that is a fair argument.

00:35:26   I have an iPad that sits right next to it

00:35:27   that I take around the first floor

00:35:29   and play some podcasts while we do things.

00:35:31   But we really enjoy the Amazon Echo ecosystem.

00:35:36   We enjoy the way the product works.

00:35:37   It works very well for us.

00:35:39   To have another Echo come out that has a screen,

00:35:43   I am willing to give Amazon the benefit of the doubt on this.

00:35:45   When the first Echo came out, we all made fun of it

00:35:47   because they released this horrible video

00:35:49   and it seemed so weird and creepy.

00:35:50   Not that different as we mentioned last week

00:35:52   from the new Echo Look,

00:35:54   the weird dressing room camera thing.

00:35:56   But I will give them the benefit of the doubt

00:35:59   because as weird as the first Echo seemed

00:36:01   because they were very bad at selling it

00:36:03   or promoting it and giving us an idea

00:36:05   of what it would be like,

00:36:07   it turned out to be pretty great for a lot of people,

00:36:08   myself included and my family included.

00:36:11   Also to point out too, so there have been increasing rumors

00:36:14   and increasing rumblings that Apple is probably

00:36:17   going to release something similar to this.

00:36:20   Rumors are that it might even come as soon as

00:36:22   like next month at WBC.

00:36:24   Keep in mind that if Apple does something like this,

00:36:26   which would be like a premium speaker

00:36:28   with some kind of screen and some kind of built in

00:36:31   you know, Siri thing, how much is that gonna cost?

00:36:35   'Cause this Amazon thing is 230 bucks.

00:36:38   And if you buy two of them you get $100 off of it.

00:36:40   That's what I did, I ordered two.

00:36:42   I figure, we'll have a use for the second one,

00:36:45   maybe we'll give it to our parents or whatever else.

00:36:49   There is no way that Apple is going to release

00:36:53   a standalone speaker with a screen that is very iPad-like,

00:36:56   possibly for $200.

00:36:59   That's not going to happen.

00:37:00   So this will be interesting to see

00:37:03   how Apple plays in this market.

00:37:04   And also, again, going back to previous discussions

00:37:08   about it, a lot of what makes the Echo so good

00:37:12   are things that Apple's not historically been so great at,

00:37:14   things like having a really easy to use open ecosystem

00:37:18   to integrate really well with it,

00:37:20   things like having a really reliable voice service

00:37:23   that is fast, that is very consistent,

00:37:25   that works the same way every single time,

00:37:28   and hears you very, very well every single time.

00:37:31   These are things that Apple so far has struggled with.

00:37:33   So we'll see how that goes,

00:37:34   but I am optimistic about this Amazon thing,

00:37:38   and to have this only be like 50 bucks more

00:37:42   than the one without the screen is pretty impressive.

00:37:45   And yeah, so I'm looking forward to when it arrives in June.

00:37:48   And look, it might be terrible, we don't know yet.

00:37:49   Nobody has a review of it yet.

00:37:51   No one outside of Amazon, as far as I know,

00:37:53   has gotten a chance to use one yet.

00:37:54   But again, I think Amazon's track record

00:37:57   in this particular area has actually been proven

00:37:59   to be pretty good, so we'll see what happens.

00:38:01   - So you mentioned before that you thought

00:38:03   it was a fair argument that why don't you just have

00:38:04   an iPad in your kitchen instead of this.

00:38:06   I don't think that's a particularly good argument

00:38:09   because the iPad, even setting aside software issues

00:38:14   in terms of how well Siri understands

00:38:18   and can respond to what you can do

00:38:19   and how open the ecosystem is for adding, you know,

00:38:22   various skills and actions

00:38:23   that connect other devices in your house,

00:38:25   even just setting that aside,

00:38:26   just in terms of the hardware.

00:38:29   An iPad can't compete with this type of device

00:38:34   in two of the three areas that are most important.

00:38:39   One, speakers.

00:38:40   iPad, the new iPads have very good speakers,

00:38:44   but this device is dedicating way more room for speakers.

00:38:47   So in theory, again, we haven't seen one of these,

00:38:49   in theory, you can put way, way, way better speakers

00:38:52   in this thing, 'cause there's just so much more room

00:38:54   for quote unquote real speakers

00:38:56   instead of very clever little cavities

00:38:57   in your skinny little thing.

00:38:59   And playing audio to fill the whole kitchen or whatever

00:39:02   is an important function of these types of devices.

00:39:06   And the second one is microphones.

00:39:08   The iPad has, I think it has multiple likes probably for noise cancellation, but I think

00:39:13   it has two.

00:39:14   The strength of the Echo is whatever weird five-microphone beamforming BS it does to

00:39:20   be able to...

00:39:21   Eight microphones.

00:39:22   How many?

00:39:23   Eight?

00:39:24   Eight.

00:39:25   I know.

00:39:26   Anyway, there's way more room for more microphones in this type of thing, and again, we don't

00:39:28   know how many microphones this thing has, but based on the Echos they have put out,

00:39:33   this is one of the most important functions of this thing, is to be able to hear you no

00:39:37   no matter where you are. And the iPad, current iPads, just don't dedicate that much hardware

00:39:41   for that. The third area where I think it can match it is in the camera, because you

00:39:44   didn't mention this, but this doesn't just have a screen, it has a camera. And they're

00:39:47   selling the kind of video conferencing thing, who knows how that will go. That's a whole

00:39:50   sort of network effect ecosystem type thing. We may just still end up, end up FaceTiming

00:39:55   each other on our phones.

00:39:56   I do see why they added this, and I think people will use it, just not me.

00:40:01   Yeah, you can go on to grandma, who doesn't have an iPhone, doesn't know how iPhones work,

00:40:04   and if she can just come in front of this, especially the drop-in feature, like where

00:40:07   you don't actually, where there's a certain time where your thing is open to just suddenly

00:40:10   seeing these people on the screen, you know? Like if you set this up with relatives who

00:40:16   are not tech-savvy, just to be able to do video conferencing, where you could never

00:40:20   get them to use an iPad, even if that was too much for them, if you just plop this down

00:40:23   on their counter, like I think that could be effective for that particular purpose.

00:40:27   But for regular people, I don't know. But the camera, again, getting back to the, what

00:40:30   what I call the look or the echo look over,

00:40:33   what the hell is it called?

00:40:33   - The Echo Screen, what's it called?

00:40:35   Echo-- - Echo Look.

00:40:36   - Echo Show. - Echo Look, yeah.

00:40:37   - Echo Show.

00:40:38   That's because everyone thinks it's a podcast,

00:40:39   but it's not. - No, no, the other one,

00:40:40   I'm talking about the look, the fashion camera thing.

00:40:42   - These are the worst names.

00:40:43   Okay, yeah, that's called the look.

00:40:44   - Yeah, so I was saying last week

00:40:48   that this device category of computing devices

00:40:52   in your home that have cameras that can see you has legs,

00:40:55   and here we have within the next week

00:40:57   another device of granite from the same company

00:40:58   that puts a camera in your house that can see you,

00:41:00   and does something with it.

00:41:02   Both of them look like they have tiny little tablet type

00:41:06   cameras.

00:41:07   So I think that's a wash in terms of the iPad

00:41:09   competing with this.

00:41:11   But I would be looking for these type of devices,

00:41:16   the Look and the Show and other things like this,

00:41:19   to get increasingly sophisticated cameras that

00:41:21   can follow you, that made multiple cameras to synthesize

00:41:25   an image with depth sensors and stuff like that.

00:41:27   Because that's where these things are going,

00:41:29   to have more sort of awareness of what's going on.

00:41:31   They can project sound and video to you,

00:41:34   and they can be aware of where you,

00:41:35   they can hear you no matter where you are,

00:41:37   and they can see you no matter where you are.

00:41:38   As far as I can tell from this one,

00:41:40   it only sees you when you're in front of it.

00:41:41   And that leads me to all the things I don't like

00:41:44   about this particular hardware product.

00:41:46   Like, if it is a fixed camera, that's kind of crappy.

00:41:49   You'd hope it'd be smarter, but again,

00:41:51   cost, you know, whatever, this is the first version.

00:41:53   We'll wait.

00:41:53   This thing is homely.

00:41:54   It's not an attractive device.

00:41:56   - Yeah, I will agree with you on that.

00:41:58   I mean, but to be fair, like, the Echo Cylinder is also not very attractive.

00:42:03   I think that's pretty sleek, and I think the Cylinder has a thing going for it where it's

00:42:06   to be unobtrusive and you can put it off to the side.

00:42:07   Although I do, that's another reason why I like the Google Home, now that I think about

00:42:11   it, because I was thinking about, you know, if we got an Echo, where would I put it?

00:42:14   The Home is smaller than the Echo, and it is less obtrusive in the place where I have

00:42:18   it.

00:42:19   But this, you can't make this unobtrusive because it has to be a place where you can

00:42:21   see the screen.

00:42:22   And it's not particularly attractive.

00:42:25   or white, it looks kind of like a sort of retro 70s piece of hardware. It's very strange.

00:42:32   It certainly doesn't look elegant. It doesn't look like an Apple device anyway, and it doesn't

00:42:36   -- it has kind of sort of -- it's kind of like a brutalism, kind of like a rugged, you

00:42:40   know, 80s Soviet-era hardware. I mean, I guess it has a certain appeal. And then finally,

00:42:47   this thing is -- I can't really tell from the pictures, but it's slanted back in all

00:42:51   the pictures I see. It's tilted backwards, like the shape dictates the tilt. It doesn't

00:42:55   to have an adjustable tilt and for something that you're going to be looking at that's

00:42:59   going to be looking back at you, that seems just ergonomically and practically speaking

00:43:04   very limiting. Because the Echo you can put literally anywhere that it can hear you like

00:43:08   high, low, left, right, just whatever, it's fine. This thing, you need sight lines and

00:43:13   you need to be able to see it and it needs to be able to see you and depending on how

00:43:17   tall you are or how tall most of the people are, even just being able to see kids and

00:43:21   adults, like how would you get that thing in a position where it can both, where grandma

00:43:23   can both see your kids that are half your height and you.

00:43:28   And even just if you're just living by yourself, you have to put it on a surface where the

00:43:33   camera can see you and you can see the screen.

00:43:36   It seems like that it would have been better to design this to have a little bit more flexibility

00:43:43   about angle and stuff.

00:43:45   Again, costs, I understand you can't have an adjustable stand or any kind of tilt thing

00:43:49   that is any reasonable quality for this price point.

00:43:51   So like I'm willing to give a lot of leeway there, but this definitely, it kind of reminds

00:43:57   me of the first Kindle.

00:43:58   Remember what a monster the first Kindle was?

00:43:59   Oh, that was something.

00:44:01   Weird angular white thing with the weird terrible hardware keyboard on it.

00:44:05   It's like they took a lot of shots of that until they kind of settled down onto like

00:44:10   the paper white, which is kind of the epitome of the old style Kindle.

00:44:12   And now they've gone with that weird thing.

00:44:13   It's like thick on one edge and thin on the other.

00:44:16   They need to iterate on this one.

00:44:17   I'm sure they will.

00:44:18   Although I say I'm sure they will, but what have they done to the Amazon Echo?

00:44:20   it's still the same black cylinder it always was maybe they just nailed that one on the first try but

00:44:23   I worry about their software ecosystem too because once they start getting into the realm of like

00:44:28   video calling and stuff like that I think it's going to be difficult for them to compete with

00:44:32   facetime because that's basically what they've got here they've got their own little version of

00:44:35   facetime and facetime for all of the wonkiness of like the weird patent thing that caused them to

00:44:41   have to restructure the way it's done and the fact that steve jobs impulsively said it was going to

00:44:45   going to be opened up to the world and it never was and all those other things.

00:44:50   I use it for its intended purpose frequently and it works.

00:44:53   You know what I mean?

00:44:54   I can successfully send video and audio to people.

00:44:57   The only limiting factor is ever crappy internet connections, which is really nothing you can

00:45:01   do about it, right?

00:45:02   Because if you're trying to communicate with somebody who has a crappy internet connection

00:45:04   or you have a crappy internet connection, it's not great, but it will gracefully degrade

00:45:09   to a black screen with just audio and also other things.

00:45:13   It basically works.

00:45:14   And Amazon, as far as I'm aware, this is kind of their first foray into this.

00:45:19   I think did they do like kind of video support for one of the color Fire tablets maybe?

00:45:24   So maybe it's not their very first thing?

00:45:26   - Yes.

00:45:27   Yeah, they had some kind of thing where it was like a screen sharing thing where you

00:45:30   could, where like their support rep could like log into your tablet and show you how

00:45:34   to do things or do things for you.

00:45:35   - Did you see them or did they see you?

00:45:38   - I don't know.

00:45:39   I never, I don't think I ever heard of anybody actually using this feature, but they did

00:45:42   have that kind of thing.

00:45:43   And again, I think this is one of those things like,

00:45:45   Amazon, you know, similar to the drop-in thing,

00:45:49   was that what they call on this?

00:45:50   Where you can kind of force call someone.

00:45:52   - Yeah, it's the same as the Google knock-knock thing

00:45:54   that we thought was a dangerous sort of thing for abuse,

00:45:58   but this is opt-in.

00:45:58   - But at least the way they're doing it,

00:46:00   yeah, it's like it's opt-in, it's whitelist only,

00:46:02   and it seems like it's pretty well controlled.

00:46:03   But I do give Amazon credit.

00:46:06   They have for years on their tablets and other products,

00:46:10   other mainstream consumer products,

00:46:12   for years they have been adding features like that

00:46:16   or like very good parental controls

00:46:19   and like kid scheduling and everything else.

00:46:22   Features that you really would expect

00:46:24   a company like Apple to do.

00:46:26   'Cause Apple's so considerate and innovative

00:46:28   and cares a lot about the customer experience and everything.

00:46:31   Amazon has really made a lot of these features

00:46:32   over the years and they can kind of get away with it

00:46:34   because their scale is so much smaller.

00:46:37   Imagine the staffing required if Apple were to

00:46:41   one of those things where they will log into your computer

00:46:43   with you and show you how to do things,

00:46:44   like they would never in a million years be able to

00:46:47   handle that on any kind of scale.

00:46:50   But Amazon can do it 'cause they're really at a much

00:46:53   smaller scale for most of these products.

00:46:54   - As far as we're aware.

00:46:56   - Well, that's true.

00:46:57   - There's no labels on the waxes.

00:46:59   - They make a bunch of weird stuff,

00:47:01   and not all of it works, but it does seem like,

00:47:04   I think they have earned the benefit of the doubt

00:47:07   in that some of their weird stuff is actually really good.

00:47:11   - It's also weird that like, I mean,

00:47:13   it's setting aside Apple, which has a strange history

00:47:16   with these type of devices and just like,

00:47:19   being almost like stubbornly unwilling to enter markets

00:47:22   even after it's proven they're viable

00:47:25   just because it doesn't seem big enough for Apple

00:47:26   or they have different plans

00:47:27   or they're pursuing other strategies

00:47:29   and just in the meantime we get nothing

00:47:30   and now maybe they're finally gonna come out with one.

00:47:32   But like an Apple that was doing the opposite

00:47:35   of what it's actually doing.

00:47:36   Apple is reducing the number of things that it's made, getting rid of the, you know, the routers

00:47:41   and reducing, trying to simplify its computer and phone lines and, you know, it's going the other

00:47:46   direction. But if it wasn't going in that direction and it was expanding, there's a lot of categories

00:47:50   of devices that you feel like Apple could make a good one of. And also Google. Both of these

00:47:53   companies have the, have all the pieces to be able to make a really good Bluetooth speaker,

00:48:00   a really good thing that listens to you. I would argue that I don't think we have seen

00:48:06   great hardware from Google.

00:48:08   - I mean, Google Home is fine.

00:48:10   - We've seen lots of things that come kind of close

00:48:13   and they always kind of fall down on the support

00:48:16   or they don't follow through or the products

00:48:19   end up being delayed and not shipping

00:48:20   or they have weird shortcomings

00:48:22   or they only get an OS for like six months.

00:48:25   I think Google has shown that they are really not set up

00:48:29   to be a company that sells and supports their own hardware.

00:48:33   - They don't follow through

00:48:35   but they have all the pieces to make it.

00:48:37   They have the server side component,

00:48:38   they can make reasonable hardware,

00:48:39   even if it's just a broken apart Chromecast

00:48:41   shoved in a cylinder, which is the Google Home.

00:48:43   And the Chromecast for that matter,

00:48:45   like that little dongly thing.

00:48:46   I agree with you that the follow through isn't there,

00:48:49   but they have the pieces to make it happen.

00:48:52   Like any company can make a Bluetooth speaker,

00:48:53   but once you start connecting it up to services,

00:48:55   not everybody has services.

00:48:56   Google has tons of services.

00:48:57   Apple has enough services that, you know,

00:48:59   you get Siri and Google Now and stuff like,

00:49:01   what's on the other end of this making it work, right?

00:49:03   And so those simple categories of like,

00:49:05   Wouldn't we have all loved if Apple made a good Bluetooth speaker and had been revising it over the years?

00:49:10   We would all give them an extra 50 bucks for the Apple one because it would be nice in some way, if it was actually nice.

00:49:15   And the same thing for, you know, essentially a Bluetooth speaker with a screen with Siri that you can ask the weather that, you know, like the cheapest possible iPad shoved into a Bluetooth speaker thing with much better, like Apple could have made this is what I'm saying.

00:49:28   Apple could make the exact Echo Show and who knows if WWC may announce the thing they've made that is like this but better.

00:49:33   and as Marco said, twice as expensive, whatever.

00:49:36   But they haven't been participating in this market at all,

00:49:39   leaving other people to try all sorts of things

00:49:41   and I suppose to gain loyalty and to build their ecosystems

00:49:45   and so on and so forth, to the point where I feel like

00:49:47   Google saw it happening and they're like,

00:49:49   oh, we should have a cylinder and so they do.

00:49:51   And maybe Google will try to come out

00:49:53   with something like this too.

00:49:54   And just to see Apple sit on the sidelines,

00:49:56   it's fine if they are working on the next big thing,

00:49:59   but it may turn out that these little things

00:50:01   build up to the next big thing, and if Apple's gonna sit it out for much longer, I think

00:50:05   it's a mistake.

00:50:06   I'm curious to see what happens, and I'll use me as an example, if it, let's say at

00:50:13   WWDC they announce the Apple equivalent of this tube thing. I'm stumbling because I

00:50:22   don't want to say any of the trigger words and have to have you bleep them later, but

00:50:25   anyway.

00:50:26   It's called the Apple Alexa Hey Siri.

00:50:27   Yeah, well, you did this to yourself. So anyway, if Apple releases a lady in a canister equivalent,

00:50:35   I'm curious to see what my reaction will be. Because sitting here now, like, again, I don't

00:50:39   doubt that the Echo is very nice and that it serves a purpose for a lot of people and

00:50:43   that, you know, I have no doubt, Marco, that you guys use it constantly and love it. Like,

00:50:47   there's nothing wrong with that. Me, I don't feel like this is solving a problem that I

00:50:51   have in my life. I've said that many times before. I'm curious as kind of a litmus test

00:50:55   to how susceptible I am to whatever Apple tells me to do.

00:51:00   I'm curious to see what happens

00:51:02   if Apple releases their own lady in a canister

00:51:04   and what my reaction is to that.

00:51:07   Because if I'm like, "Well, holy crap,

00:51:08   "I've got to have one of these.

00:51:10   "How could I have lived without it?"

00:51:11   And it's really just a Echo but Apple-branded,

00:51:14   then apparently I really am a lemming

00:51:16   and it's all downhill from here.

00:51:19   - In reality, it would most likely be $300

00:51:22   and you would say, "Oh, I don't wanna buy this one.

00:51:23   "I'll get the next one maybe."

00:51:25   - Yeah, and then inevitably I'll buy it anyway.

00:51:27   - Yeah, right, six months later you'll have three of them.

00:51:30   - Speaking of a Google Home, a minor Google Home update,

00:51:32   they added a thing that lets you distinguish people by voice

00:51:35   and so they can ask for, you know,

00:51:36   tell me what my day is like

00:51:37   and it will tell you your calendar

00:51:39   by recognizing who you are.

00:51:41   So it's basic multi-user functionality.

00:51:43   Unfortunately, no one ever asks Google Home

00:51:46   what's on their calendar

00:51:48   because it's just not a thing that we do

00:51:49   and so distinguishing us by voice is not particularly useful.

00:51:52   I think the only two voices that knows

00:51:53   to distinguish is mine and my daughter's

00:51:54   we are like the most frequent users. But all that said, I continue to be impressed by,

00:51:59   I mean it's basically just Google search behind the scenes, because I'm always impressed by Google

00:52:03   search when you do, when you type in something in that search box and it somehow figures out

00:52:07   what you mean and gives you relevant results. That's the magic of Google. Most recent one is

00:52:14   we were talking about something at the dinner table and we were talking about a movie and,

00:52:19   and we're like, was that released then? Or, you know, what year was that released?

00:52:23   we could ask the Google Home, "What year was the movie blah blah blah released?"

00:52:28   And I didn't have to think about how do I have to phrase this in a way they can understand. I

00:52:33   don't even remember how I phrased it. I just asked it the same way I would ask a person with

00:52:38   encyclopedic knowledge of movie releases who's sitting in the corner of the room,

00:52:40   and the thing spoke out, "The movie blah blah blah was released in March blah blah blah blah blah."

00:52:48   That to me is still magic because it's exactly like Google search.

00:52:54   Like I probably just turned it into text and typed into Google search and then read me the top hit

00:52:58   or something like that. But the bottom line is it answered my question. It wasn't just like a

00:53:01   general purpose, like what's the weather? What does my day look like? I had a specific question

00:53:07   about a movie about the release date. And it just didn't just tell me the movie and then list off

00:53:10   like all the metadata. Let me tell you everything about this movie starring this person, directed by

00:53:14   this person, released it and I had to wait for the... It just told me the release date of the movie.

00:53:17   And that I love that right and that's something that I feel like you can't do if you aren't backed by Google

00:53:24   Because the hard part is not hearing me and translating as a text the hard part is figuring out

00:53:28   What did you say and what did you mean and how do I answer you know for all I know that's a can thing that?

00:53:32   They expect people to ask or whatever

00:53:33   But the more of those I have the less I think I'm just getting lucky and happening to hit upon something they anticipated

00:53:39   And especially coded support for and there's just like the magic of Google. So what was the movie despite?

00:53:44   I don't remember. It was too long ago. But despite Google Home, I feel like it's still

00:53:51   not being revised as quickly as I would have hoped, and its capability is not expanding

00:53:56   in the way that I hoped. But just for the basic functionality of answering my questions,

00:54:00   we have the dinner table and quickly settling arguments is money well spent.

00:54:05   All right, name a movie.

00:54:07   Hunt for Red October.

00:54:08   There you go.

00:54:10   Alexa, what year was the Hunt for Red October released?

00:54:12   The movie The Hunt for Red October was released in 1989.

00:54:16   It's magic.

00:54:18   There's been a lot of these queries where I will ask the Echo one of the, you know, a question like this,

00:54:24   and things that I will say will, that I think there's no way that it's going to be able to help me with this.

00:54:30   Well it didn't because it's wrong. It's the 2nd of March 1990.

00:54:33   Really?

00:54:34   Minor points. Minor points.

00:54:37   According to IMDb, that was the American release.

00:54:40   Is that international versus US release?

00:54:42   Okay, well hold on though.

00:54:43   I thought to myself, that didn't sound right to me.

00:54:47   You can ask similar questions about albums and songs and artists or who sings the song,

00:54:52   whatever, and all the lyrics are where you can name any lyrics in the song and it will

00:54:56   figure it out. I mean, there's a lot of overlap between these things, but that I think is amazing.

00:55:01   And ask the same question. Say, "What is the release date for? What year was it released?

00:55:07   when was it put out?

00:55:09   Like, just try different phrasings and see, like,

00:55:11   eventually if you can stump it, but it's pretty good.

00:55:13   - Well, basically, so my point is,

00:55:15   I have asked it questions like this a number of times,

00:55:18   thinking that it would get it wrong,

00:55:19   thinking that there would be no chance

00:55:21   that it'll get it right.

00:55:22   And it gets it right about maybe 2/3 to 3/4 of the time

00:55:26   when I ask a weird question like that,

00:55:28   which is not only better than I expect,

00:55:31   but is probably fairly similar to most of these things.

00:55:34   It's probably even fairly similar

00:55:36   how often Google gets it right.

00:55:38   In my experience, the accuracy of search results

00:55:42   between different search engines,

00:55:44   I still use DuckDuckGo as my primary search engine

00:55:47   instead of Google.

00:55:49   It turns out this kind of stuff is actually not that rare

00:55:54   to be decent at.

00:55:55   It is not just Google that can do these things.

00:55:58   It is possible for other companies,

00:56:01   and in the case of DuckDuckGo, way smaller companies,

00:56:04   be able to be competent at search, just not Apple most of the time unfortunately, but

00:56:11   it is very possible for other companies.

00:56:12   Remember when Amazon had its own search?

00:56:14   What was that called?

00:56:15   A3?

00:56:16   It was called Alexa, no, Alexa was the rank, right?

00:56:19   A3, right?

00:56:20   A9 was their search engine.

00:56:23   But it was...

00:56:24   Anyway, there's not a lot of them.

00:56:25   There's Bing, there's DuckDuckGo, there's Google, there's A9 which we all know still

00:56:28   exist.

00:56:29   Apple has never dipped its toe into this field.

00:56:31   I don't think there need to be that many people, especially if it's like...

00:56:33   - The App Store.

00:56:35   - God, yeah, Apple can't search a domain

00:56:37   way smaller than the web in an efficient manner.

00:56:40   - Well, look, Siri searches things, right?

00:56:42   Especially in contexts like Apple TV or Apple Music.

00:56:45   - Well, that's like Wolfram Alfora.

00:56:47   - No, but Apple TV, Apple Music,

00:56:48   it's searching libraries of content,

00:56:51   and the App Store is really just a really big version

00:56:53   of that that should be way better than it is.

00:56:55   - (laughs) But it's not, yes.

00:56:57   - No, it's so, is it?

00:56:58   - You know what just occurred to me?

00:56:59   Doesn't Amazon own IMDb now?

00:57:02   - Yeah, they sure do. - Yeah, they do.

00:57:04   - So how could they have gotten this wrong

00:57:05   if IMDb says it's 1990?

00:57:08   - You can't find anything on the IMDb website

00:57:10   with your own eyes and hands.

00:57:12   So it's like whatever, IMDb is now at work,

00:57:16   hard at work obscuring the information

00:57:18   you wanna know about movies.

00:57:19   'Cause I go to that website page and I'm like,

00:57:21   "Just who played the main character?"

00:57:23   And I'm just scanning and thinking

00:57:24   I have to disclose something or click on something

00:57:26   and it was just tons of sound and fury signifying nothing.

00:57:32   - I miss the old IMDb.

00:57:33   - Yeah, I mean, chances are like the Alexa was trying

00:57:35   to find the answer on his page

00:57:36   and just got blocked by all the ads.

00:57:38   (laughing)

00:57:39   - Oh yeah, one more thing on the Echo Show.

00:57:41   Marco is lucky because he has a fairly long kitchen.

00:57:46   I would have no room for this thing in my kitchen.

00:57:48   As much as I would like to have a thing like this,

00:57:50   that is I think another limitation for a device.

00:57:53   I can't really tell how big it is from the pictures,

00:57:54   but certainly it is both wider than the Echo

00:57:57   and you can't like put it behind

00:57:59   or nestled into a corner or whatever.

00:58:01   has to be somewhere where you can see it.

00:58:03   - Well, I think it actually might be fairly small

00:58:05   'cause didn't people say it's a seven inch screen?

00:58:08   - Yeah, maybe it's, I mean, it's hard to tell.

00:58:09   Maybe it's smaller than it looks like.

00:58:11   But anyway, you can't nestle it in a corner

00:58:13   or hide it somewhere.

00:58:14   You do need the space and the line of sight for the thing,

00:58:16   which makes me think that it could replace like a kitchen TV

00:58:19   so if this thing started getting live TV,

00:58:21   if Amazon wanted to pull a YouTube,

00:58:24   what is the YouTube one?

00:58:25   YouTube TV and Hulu has a live TV.

00:58:28   Everyone at Apple has a skinny bundle

00:58:31   on a live TV offering.

00:58:32   That would be a great thing to incorporate this.

00:58:34   'Cause people do like little TVs in their kitchen

00:58:36   to like watch cooking shows or whatever

00:58:38   with like voice activated DVR functionality.

00:58:40   They already showed it like cooking up to your like,

00:58:42   you know, baby cam to show your baby in your crib and stuff.

00:58:45   The potential for a smart screen with good speakers

00:58:49   and a camera that's internet connected

00:58:51   with good software in your kitchen.

00:58:54   That feels like a fruitful, like it's a device

00:58:56   that has been made a million times over.

00:58:58   if you're old and remember all of like the Audrey

00:59:01   or the three com, maybe that's the Audrey

00:59:04   that I'm thinking of, but Sony has made,

00:59:06   Sony was it the E-Villa, I don't know.

00:59:08   There's been tons of like things like this.

00:59:11   And they were just, they were gonna say

00:59:13   they were ahead of their time,

00:59:14   they were ahead of the tech.

00:59:15   They weren't ready, there was no ecosystem,

00:59:17   there wasn't a smart search behind it,

00:59:18   there wasn't a speech recognition,

00:59:19   there wasn't, so often there wasn't the internet

00:59:21   for the really old ones.

00:59:23   I feel like the time is now.

00:59:25   And I really hope that we see more of these devices

00:59:29   from the big three or four, however many,

00:59:32   however you wanna count it, Apple, Amazon, Google,

00:59:35   and whoever else, not fewer.

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01:01:28   (upbeat music)

01:01:31   - All right, so somebody has put something

01:01:33   that I find actually somewhat terrifying in the show notes.

01:01:37   The show notes reads, "Brief quiz."

01:01:40   (laughing)

01:01:42   - Yeah, I saw that earlier too

01:01:43   and got a little bit scared of what,

01:01:44   I knew immediately that it was Jon.

01:01:46   I mean, come on.

01:01:47   - Yeah.

01:01:49   There was an article going around that hopefully you two were too busy this evening to read

01:01:53   and follow the link for that involves a brief quiz that I think we should all take.

01:01:58   I have already taken it.

01:01:59   It takes two seconds.

01:02:02   And so I will paste the URL into the chat room now.

01:02:06   It is a thing that asks you to make a bunch of selections.

01:02:10   So just don't read the whole article.

01:02:11   Don't scroll down.

01:02:12   Just go to the part where you make the selections and make the selections.

01:02:15   Do not share your comments.

01:02:16   And then when we have all done it, come back and we will discuss our choices.

01:02:20   So here you go.

01:02:21   It's in the chat room.

01:02:22   Okay, so…

01:02:23   What the hell is Alphabet?

01:02:24   That's Google, right?

01:02:25   It's Google's parent company.

01:02:26   Google, that's Google.

01:02:27   So if an evil monarch forced you to choose, in which order would you give up these inescapable

01:02:33   giants of tech?

01:02:34   So…

01:02:35   Okay, I'm done.

01:02:36   Well, I got to think about this for a second.

01:02:38   Jeezy peasy people.

01:02:39   Okay, he's got to mull it over.

01:02:40   Just a little.

01:02:41   You all done?

01:02:42   Yes.

01:02:43   All right.

01:02:44   Yes.

01:02:45   All right, so now I will explain the premise.

01:02:48   They list the big tech companies, Alphabet, basically Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook,

01:02:52   and Amazon.

01:02:53   And it asks you in what order would you be willing to give them up.

01:02:56   So if there's one company that you're like, "I don't care if that company goes away tomorrow,"

01:02:59   that's obviously your number one pick.

01:03:00   You'd pick that one and you keep working your way down.

01:03:03   At the end, you'll be left with the company you would least like to see depart this earth,

01:03:06   like if they just disappeared or whatever.

01:03:08   So who wants to go first?

01:03:11   Well, let's just go through our – let's do a top four style.

01:03:14   - Oh, God.

01:03:15   - First of all, the question of like,

01:03:16   how many people do you think arrived at this article

01:03:19   and knew what Alphabet was?

01:03:21   And then every time they mention it,

01:03:24   they have to say the parent company of Google

01:03:26   because nobody knows what that is

01:03:28   because Google is so bad at everything branding-wise,

01:03:32   everything human, they can't do.

01:03:35   - I would have just called it Google

01:03:36   because Google uses the Google brand.

01:03:38   And I don't think, can you think of something

01:03:40   that is in Alphabet but not in Google that you care about,

01:03:42   like AS&S stuff or something?

01:03:44   Anyway, let's now do our number one choice,

01:03:47   sort of backwards top four,

01:03:48   the company that we would all be willing to get rid of first.

01:03:51   - I'm willing to bet we all have the same one for this one.

01:03:53   - Yes.

01:03:54   - Facebook?

01:03:55   - Facebook.

01:03:56   - Nope.

01:03:56   - Whoa. - No.

01:03:58   All right, what did you pick?

01:03:59   - Microsoft.

01:04:00   - Microsoft, hmm.

01:04:01   - What has Microsoft done for me lately?

01:04:03   And by lately I mean in the last year, no more than that.

01:04:05   - Well, they did provide your livelihood for many years.

01:04:09   - Right, no, but yeah, that's why I said,

01:04:11   only in the last year.

01:04:12   And you're absolutely right.

01:04:13   - Now you have a grudge in the style of my Microsoft grudge.

01:04:18   - No, no, no, I will never be a grudge.

01:04:20   It will never be a grudge like you.

01:04:21   But what has Microsoft done for me lately?

01:04:24   Nothing really.

01:04:25   I mean, I do love Visual Studio Code.

01:04:27   Yes, people are mentioning Visual Studio for the Mac,

01:04:29   but that's just a rebranded Xamarin development,

01:04:32   monodevelop, whatever it's called.

01:04:33   I don't think that there's anything

01:04:35   that Microsoft has given me in the last 12 to 18 months

01:04:40   that really affects me day to day.

01:04:43   and maybe I'm just missing something,

01:04:45   but I do get some value out of Facebook, believe it or not,

01:04:49   whereas I don't think I actively get any value

01:04:51   out of Microsoft today.

01:04:52   - What value do you get out of Facebook?

01:04:54   - Oh, (beep)

01:04:55   Instagram.

01:04:56   - Oh, shoot, I didn't even think about that at all.

01:04:59   Oh, that might change my tune then.

01:05:01   - Yeah, I just realized, but see,

01:05:02   I can't throw Microsoft under the bus either

01:05:04   because I use their keyboard.

01:05:05   (laughing)

01:05:06   And also, they own Skype, which we don't love,

01:05:10   but we use it every week,

01:05:11   and there's nothing good to replace it.

01:05:13   These are all hard choices.

01:05:14   I factor this into my choice for Facebook as number one,

01:05:17   despite Oculus, which you also forgot about,

01:05:19   and Instagram or whatever,

01:05:21   that Facebook is the one I get rid of.

01:05:23   And, bring it, this evil monarch,

01:05:26   it doesn't necessarily say which one of these affects you.

01:05:28   That's the framing device that you're bringing to it.

01:05:30   Casey's decided the way he's gonna pick this

01:05:32   is like which one affects his life.

01:05:34   But there are many other factors that you could use

01:05:35   in determining which one do you want

01:05:36   to depart this Earth magically.

01:05:38   And Facebook I want to depart for so many reasons,

01:05:40   despite Instagram, which I enjoy,

01:05:42   and despite Oculus, which may or may not be

01:05:44   an interesting thing that I use someday,

01:05:47   almost everything else they do I don't like.

01:05:51   And I believe that the need they fill

01:05:53   could be filled equally or better by some other company

01:05:58   if they were to just poof out of existence.

01:05:59   So Facebook is my number one, I don't like them.

01:06:01   - Yeah, I'm gonna stick with that too.

01:06:03   As much as I love Instagram,

01:06:05   the other things on this list are more important to me.

01:06:11   And the omission of Facebook from the world,

01:06:14   I think, I agree with you,

01:06:15   I think would have a better effect on the world,

01:06:17   not just me, than the removal of any other ones here.

01:06:22   - Flickr could rise again to fill the Instagram.

01:06:24   If Instagram didn't exist, I feel like something else

01:06:25   would have done a similar thing,

01:06:26   'cause what it does is not as revolutionary

01:06:29   as the fact that it was able to do it

01:06:31   and gather this network of people and so on and so forth.

01:06:33   - I mean, honestly, it's kind of amazing

01:06:34   that Tumblr didn't do that.

01:06:36   I know I'm biased here, but it was,

01:06:39   Looking back on it, I think that Tumblr had a big opportunity

01:06:42   to be what Instagram was, but their timing to mobile

01:06:46   was all wrong because it was similar cases,

01:06:48   what almost made Facebook pretty irrelevant

01:06:52   in the mobile age is that when you have a big

01:06:55   desktop browser web service, it's hard when mobile

01:06:58   comes around to realize that you have to change everything

01:07:01   and be mobile first.

01:07:02   Facebook realized it almost too late.

01:07:05   Tumblr got in on it eventually too, but by that point,

01:07:08   a lot of the ground was already taken,

01:07:10   and including things like Instagram.

01:07:12   - Alright, so number two, Facebook.

01:07:15   - Yeah, for me it's Microsoft, obviously.

01:07:17   - Microsoft for me as well.

01:07:19   - And you know, like we said,

01:07:21   they haven't done a lot for me recently,

01:07:22   however, again, these companies are all really big.

01:07:24   They do own a lot of stuff.

01:07:26   Like, you know, none of us had anything nice,

01:07:28   except for Casey, had anything nice to say

01:07:30   about the Facebook product itself,

01:07:32   but Instagram is owned by it,

01:07:34   so we have to consider that, Oculus and things like that.

01:07:36   With Microsoft, they own a lot of stuff too.

01:07:38   As I mentioned, they own Skype.

01:07:40   We're all using Skype right now,

01:07:41   and as much as we hate it,

01:07:42   there's no clear, better thing for podcasters to use,

01:07:47   except whatever the Germans are using

01:07:48   with that Studio Link thing.

01:07:49   But I don't know anything about that.

01:07:50   I can't read German, I can't understand the page,

01:07:52   and it looks like it's some kind of weird plugin

01:07:54   for another app I don't use, so, oh well.

01:07:56   Well, I guess I'll figure out some other time, I hope.

01:07:58   - So far, you can still use Google Translate,

01:08:01   because you haven't gotten rid of Google yet, so.

01:08:03   - Yeah, right. (laughs)

01:08:05   I actually did use that to read the,

01:08:07   I opened the page in Chrome so I could use

01:08:08   the built-in translate thing.

01:08:10   But yeah, ultimately Microsoft doesn't have a large role

01:08:16   in my life, so that would be my number two.

01:08:19   And it's not, I don't really dislike Microsoft.

01:08:23   I kind of feel bad for them these days

01:08:25   'cause they're playing catch-up on so many

01:08:27   major important fronts in the industry.

01:08:29   But they just don't provide a lot of value for me

01:08:33   compared to the other ones above it on this list?

01:08:35   >> Yeah, I picked Microsoft for a bunch of reasons, most of which are not evil grudges.

01:08:41   There's the evil grudge in the back of my mind.

01:08:43   But I can think of a lot of reasons why I actually wouldn't want them to go away, which

01:08:47   is why they're not number one.

01:08:48   Xbox, even though I don't like it, is an important counterbalance to PlayStation.

01:08:53   It's only a real competitor in the same sort of level playing field, because Nintendo is

01:08:56   always off doing its own weird thing.

01:08:57   So I think it's good that it exists.

01:09:00   They did buy Bungie, which we'll hate them for forever, but on the other hand, we would

01:09:04   not have the Bungie that we have today if it was not for Microsoft, right?

01:09:08   So there's some credit there.

01:09:10   The cloud stuff they're doing I think is interesting and again is a counterbalance to both Amazon

01:09:15   and Google and so I'd like to see more competition there.

01:09:18   But I don't like Word or Excel or Office.

01:09:21   I think all those programs, the world will be better if those programs disappeared and

01:09:25   we should, you know, come up with modern alternatives.

01:09:27   They're dinosaurs, we can't get rid of them

01:09:29   because they've always been here

01:09:30   and it's a self-perpetuating cycle.

01:09:32   And all those products that I listed,

01:09:37   I either don't use them or would love to use something else.

01:09:40   So I don't say goodbye to them with a grudge,

01:09:42   but out of this group, they are my number two.

01:09:44   - All right, so number three.

01:09:48   - Google for me.

01:09:49   - Yep, ditto.

01:09:50   - Or excuse me, I selected Alphabet, whatever that means,

01:09:53   but I'm gonna say it means Google.

01:09:54   And this is, again, tricky

01:09:57   because this includes things like YouTube,

01:09:58   which is, you know, that's a major--

01:10:00   - Oh yeah, didn't consider that.

01:10:01   I think I stick by it, but, hmm.

01:10:04   - That's the thing, all of these companies,

01:10:06   they have major acquisitions and major properties

01:10:08   that you don't think of necessarily,

01:10:10   but yeah, Google owns YouTube, and that's a major thing.

01:10:15   So that's hard to give up in a lot of ways

01:10:20   for a lot of people, but there are other ways

01:10:25   to find videos online, just none of them are very big,

01:10:28   I guess, but that doesn't mean somebody else

01:10:30   couldn't make one, I don't know.

01:10:32   It's a weird calculus, but I don't use Google's web apps

01:10:36   for anything other than the show notes for this show,

01:10:39   which we could, again, we've decided that's the best

01:10:43   for us to just use Google Docs for our shared notes

01:10:46   for the show, but there are other options.

01:10:49   We've all decided they aren't as good,

01:10:52   but we could go to one of them.

01:10:53   And I don't use Google web search the vast majority of the time.

01:10:57   I'm almost always using DuckDuckGo.

01:10:59   I only occasionally jump into Google when I'm not finding the answer I want.

01:11:02   So that would be fairly easy for me.

01:11:04   But for a lot of other people, that would be really hard because they have a lot of

01:11:07   tie-ins to things like Gmail that are really important to them.

01:11:10   So it's kind of an easy one for me to say Google, but I wouldn't think that would be

01:11:13   very common.

01:11:14   Steven: I did not say Google.

01:11:16   I said Amazon.

01:11:17   Steven (01h00m

01:11:17   Interesting. You know, as we were talking, I started to wonder if me choosing Google

01:11:23   for number three was a poor choice, because specifically of YouTube. I don't contribute

01:11:28   to YouTube very often, although I have once. But I feel like I am on YouTube almost every

01:11:36   day to look at something or look up something or something like that. So my answer was to

01:11:41   to put Google as number three,

01:11:44   but I wonder if maybe I should have swapped that with Amazon.

01:11:48   So how did you land on Amazon as the next one to go, Jon?

01:11:52   - Well, Google, stuff that Google does is,

01:11:55   going back to the KC framing of like just the things

01:11:59   that are important to your life that you use,

01:12:00   I use it for my email.

01:12:01   There is no alternative for Gmail

01:12:04   that has the same properties.

01:12:05   Like I don't like, using my own server,

01:12:08   using IMAP is not the same as Gmail.

01:12:09   I am a Gmail user at this point, not an email user.

01:12:12   I use Google search all the time.

01:12:14   And the alternatives are differently able to do things,

01:12:19   but I'm used to the way Google works

01:12:22   and I just use it so extensively

01:12:23   that I wouldn't want to have to try

01:12:25   to get used to something else.

01:12:26   YouTube was a big factor in my decision as well.

01:12:28   I spend a lot of time watching YouTube videos

01:12:31   and I believe that it's not a matter of

01:12:34   if they went away, someone else can make a video service

01:12:36   because even before Google owned YouTube,

01:12:39   YouTube is very good at what it does in terms of making video that plays when you hit the

01:12:44   play button, the recommendation engine to figure out things you might be interested

01:12:48   in.

01:12:49   And there's all sorts of terrible things about YouTube as well, inevitably as the big dominant

01:12:53   player in a field, but I think they do a good job at what they do.

01:12:56   And if Google went away tomorrow, it would take a long time for those ecosystems to reform

01:13:04   around another set of services.

01:13:06   So I wouldn't want to say goodbye to that as well.

01:13:08   And then all the other stuff that Google does, all the wacky things that it does, for the

01:13:12   most part, I like them.

01:13:14   The translation engine that was translating that German webpage for you.

01:13:17   Google has really good translation and it gets better all the time.

01:13:21   All their weird projects with hot air balloons and Wi-Fi and self-driving cars and like,

01:13:25   I love all that stuff about Google and I think the world would be lesser for them not to

01:13:30   be there.

01:13:31   So that's why.

01:13:32   And Amazon, why did I pick Amazon as my number three?

01:13:37   Amazon is great.

01:13:38   it like crazy like that's what I was thinking about like if Amazon went away

01:13:42   where would I order all my stuff because I order so much stuff from there right

01:13:45   but I've used other places that sell you stuff over the internet and they're not

01:13:52   that much worse than Amazon now maybe they don't have as much selection and

01:13:56   maybe they don't have as cheap shipping and so on and so forth but I feel like

01:13:59   beg to differ here I've used enough of them to know I mean even just like

01:14:04   simple as like when I you know camera stuff I can buy it from Amazon or I can

01:14:08   buy it from B&H Photo, and B&H Photo is not a titan of the internet industry, but it's

01:14:13   fine. Lensrentals.com is not Amazon, but it was fine. I bought enough stuff online from

01:14:19   non-Amazon places that I feel like I could live with that. And often the defaulting of

01:14:25   Amazon that we all do, like, "Oh, we gotta buy something, let's go to Amazon," that defaulting

01:14:28   runs me into trouble more often these days, because I will accept Amazon selection as,

01:14:35   well if Amazon doesn't have it it must not exist which is not true or if Amazon

01:14:39   has a price it must be a reasonable price which is not true because sometimes

01:14:42   something on Amazon is insanely highly priced and you need to do some

01:14:45   comparisons elsewhere for a variety of weird reasons so I do use it I do value

01:14:50   and rely on the service but I believe that it is not as impressive and

01:14:55   because I don't have an echo and don't do I'm not in that ecosystem either and

01:14:59   also I believe that other people can do similar things it was my number three

01:15:02   This was probably my most difficult choice

01:15:04   between these two, Amazon and Apple Vet/Google,

01:15:08   but I came down on Amazon.

01:15:11   - Interesting.

01:15:12   All right, so that makes number four next, is that right?

01:15:15   - Mm-hmm.

01:15:16   You see, this is where I picked Amazon for my number four.

01:15:19   I saved it for this.

01:15:20   - Same here.

01:15:21   - You know, my reasoning for saving it for so long

01:15:24   throughout this elimination is basically that,

01:15:27   you know, there are lots of places,

01:15:29   like, you know, you mentioned B&H.

01:15:31   There are lots of other online retailers for the,

01:15:33   and by the way, again, Amazon owns a lot of stuff,

01:15:36   including, if you're a programmer, AWS,

01:15:38   which is kind of important for a lot of stacks,

01:15:42   and not always easy to replace the components you're using,

01:15:45   depending on what you're using.

01:15:46   But anyway, for retail alone,

01:15:50   whenever I buy anything from other places,

01:15:52   I very often wish I would have bought it from Amazon

01:15:55   for various reasons.

01:15:57   There's a lot of parts of it

01:15:59   that other people can do reasonably well sometimes,

01:16:02   but it's rare that you get any other vendor

01:16:04   anywhere else online that has the combination

01:16:08   of everything Amazon offers.

01:16:09   And this is not only like the kind of fundamentals

01:16:13   of buying stuff online, which is get it for a good price.

01:16:17   I mean, now a lot of places offer the same price

01:16:19   on things as Amazon, or similar price, close enough pricing.

01:16:22   But also be able to ship to you quickly

01:16:25   and for not that much money.

01:16:27   and be able to accept returns really easily

01:16:30   if it doesn't work out for you, if it arrives broken.

01:16:34   Be able to provide basic order tracking and things like that.

01:16:39   Many of the other online retail things that are good,

01:16:44   Amazon actually owns them, things like Zappos

01:16:47   and Soap.com which is now merged into Amazon,

01:16:51   Diapers.com, all this stuff, a lot of those things,

01:16:54   Amazon actually owns them all.

01:16:56   so it would rule out a bunch of that stuff.

01:16:58   And it's also just really nice to have somewhere

01:17:00   where I've been buying large quantities of things

01:17:03   from Amazon for so many years now,

01:17:06   for well over a decade now,

01:17:09   that I can go back and search my order history

01:17:11   whenever I need to know what was that thing I bought

01:17:14   or when did I buy this thing that might be about to break

01:17:17   and I wanna know how long its warranty is.

01:17:19   When did I buy this?

01:17:20   How much should I pay for it back then?

01:17:22   If I wanna get another one of these things,

01:17:25   'cause the one I have just wore out or broke

01:17:27   or ran out or whatever.

01:17:28   What exactly was that so I can just go buy

01:17:30   the same thing again?

01:17:31   Amazon's great when you have a big history like that.

01:17:34   And so there are other vendors or other retailers

01:17:37   that provide some of these parts,

01:17:39   but to have it all in one place like Amazon

01:17:41   is really very, very convenient.

01:17:44   There are lots of things about Amazon retail

01:17:45   that are bad, things like the conditions

01:17:48   in their warehouses for some of the workers.

01:17:51   There have been various reports over time

01:17:53   about how those are less than great.

01:17:55   So it's not wonderful in all ways.

01:17:59   Being a seller on Amazon apparently has a lot of issues

01:18:03   because of things like their incredibly overly generous

01:18:06   return policy for the customer,

01:18:08   which is very problematic for a lot of the sellers.

01:18:10   But for the most part, as a user of Amazon,

01:18:14   I really, really greatly, greatly enjoy it.

01:18:17   Again, it isn't perfect.

01:18:19   Like for example, I recently got a,

01:18:21   I needed to get a SanDisk memory card,

01:18:24   a fairly fast, decent one that was like 60 bucks.

01:18:27   And any memory card is kind of a risk to buy from Amazon

01:18:31   'cause they have such a problem with counterfeit products

01:18:33   being in their stock.

01:18:35   And memory cards are very commonly counterfeited.

01:18:37   So anything like that I'll buy from B&H

01:18:39   because they're much more reliable in that way.

01:18:43   And things like Pro Audio Gear I'll buy from B&H

01:18:45   most of the time too.

01:18:46   But like, with those few exceptions,

01:18:50   Anything I can buy from Amazon, I usually will buy from Amazon.

01:18:54   I just should also remember AWS S3, EC2, and all the other services that Amazon, that's

01:19:00   powering tons of startups.

01:19:02   I know there are equivalent cloud offerings from Microsoft and Google, but if they were

01:19:06   to disappear the next day, it would probably kill like half the internet startups and a

01:19:09   bunch of other companies.

01:19:10   It's like when S3 goes down, you find out how many companies are relying on it.

01:19:14   So it is a tough one.

01:19:16   But yeah, I had a number three instead of number four, and you never were.

01:19:19   I had Google in number four, but I already talked about that.

01:19:21   Fair enough.

01:19:22   So we all chose Apple last?

01:19:24   Yeah, I mean, surprise.

01:19:26   Like obviously we're going to do that.

01:19:28   But I suppose this is a good litmus test.

01:19:30   This quiz doesn't give you much guidance.

01:19:35   You could use any criteria you want to remove it, and we're all talking about the different

01:19:38   things we thought about.

01:19:39   But I would guess that for the reason we kept Apple until last is mostly based on the fact

01:19:46   that we use Macs and iOS devices.

01:19:48   So it's suddenly a very personal decision.

01:19:51   That factored in like, oh, I use Gmail or I order lots of stuff from Amazon or, you

01:19:55   know, I get some value from Facebook and not from Microsoft because I don't use their stuff.

01:19:58   But for Apple, I think it would actually be harder to argue about like if Apple is gone,

01:20:06   no one will be able to do X, right?

01:20:09   I think, at least for me, more comes down to I use and like the Mac and there is no

01:20:14   alternative that I would want to use and I use and like iOS devices and there's probably

01:20:18   no alternative that I would want to use, and so I don't want those things to go away.

01:20:23   For me, it is less about, "If Apple is gone, they'll never be self-driving cars," because

01:20:28   that's not true.

01:20:29   "If Apple is gone, GNOME will ever make VR or AR," not true.

01:20:32   Like, "If Apple is gone, GNOME will ever make a handheld touch operating system again,"

01:20:36   actually, we have those now.

01:20:37   You know, so it's not based on future stuff.

01:20:40   Like I think in the past, if we were sort of in the beginning phases, like just after

01:20:45   the iPod and when Apple was making a series of computers that were really impressive and

01:20:50   weird and setting the world on fire, and then the iPod, the surprise success, the surprise

01:20:55   overnight five-year success.

01:20:58   I think I would have said at that time, "I'm saving Apple for last because I want to see

01:21:02   what they do next because they're just doing hit after hit after hit and even the duds

01:21:06   like the Cube are still awesome, right?

01:21:09   What is that Apple going to do next?"

01:21:11   These days I have less of what is an Apple going to do next thing and it's more just

01:21:14   like, "Please, Apple, you make many products that I like and enjoy that are an important

01:21:17   part of my life and I wouldn't like the alternatives. Please keep making them and improving them,"

01:21:22   which is a lesser thing, but I did save it for last, and for me it's for very selfish

01:21:26   reasons.

01:21:27   I mean, I make my living off of Apple. No matter how useless it would be, this show

01:21:31   or my jobby job, it's all because of Apple at this point. So I would be pretty sad and

01:21:38   broke if they disappeared.

01:21:41   - For me it's all about Beats.

01:21:42   I just don't wanna give up my Beats,

01:21:44   my Beats Solo 2 Studio X headphones.

01:21:49   - And Apple Music Connect, right?

01:21:50   Is that really a big part of your life?

01:21:52   - Yes, yes, definitely.

01:21:53   I really love connecting with my engaged,

01:21:57   I don't even know what it does.

01:21:58   - It's a big part of finding the setting

01:22:00   to remove that from your toolbar in iOS.

01:22:02   That's the best part.

01:22:04   - Yeah, no, I mean, so like Casey,

01:22:06   I also make my living off of Apple stuff.

01:22:10   whether it's through my iOS app,

01:22:12   which could not exist anymore if Apple went away.

01:22:15   And yes, Overcast does have a web player,

01:22:19   which is used by something like 1% of the user base.

01:22:23   So that's probably not much of a business there.

01:22:26   Granted, it does suck,

01:22:27   but it's still not much usage there.

01:22:30   So my living would go away, or most of it at least.

01:22:35   We could theoretically keep podcasting

01:22:38   and we could make money that way,

01:22:39   but a large part of what we talk about would go away,

01:22:42   especially if we eliminated the other five companies

01:22:44   or the other four companies here also.

01:22:46   - We'd all be using Windows or Linux and Android,

01:22:48   so I think we'd have a lot of things to talk about.

01:22:50   - That's true.

01:22:51   (laughing)

01:22:51   That's true.

01:22:52   So that would be a problem.

01:22:54   And also, I will go one step further,

01:22:55   speaking of that, Jon,

01:22:57   that you mentioned that without Apple,

01:23:02   you couldn't really say like,

01:23:03   oh, without Apple, nobody would ever do X

01:23:05   or this thing would never exist.

01:23:07   I would say that there are many of those things in practice,

01:23:12   but the one that I will point out here

01:23:14   is I think without Apple, nobody would ever make

01:23:18   a great personal computing platform again.

01:23:21   And there's lots of reasons why,

01:23:23   and this could be a bigger discussion, I don't know.

01:23:26   But this is part of the reason why I'm so defensive

01:23:28   of Apple continuing to make pro hardware

01:23:32   and keeping the Mac healthy.

01:23:35   Because without that, many slices of people

01:23:39   have to go to Windows or Linux

01:23:41   or whatever future options might come about.

01:23:44   And I honestly do not believe that anyone else,

01:23:48   any other company will ever make a good general purpose

01:23:52   computer operating system as we know it today, besides Apple.

01:23:56   - Well, you put a lot of qualifiers on that

01:23:57   because you're saying as we know it.

01:23:59   I think that if Apple was to go away

01:24:01   and you're waiting for the next great one of those things,

01:24:03   It would be an OS that is not, quote unquote, "as we know it" today.

01:24:07   Like, to give an example from the past that didn't quite do it but I feel like could have,

01:24:11   WebOS.

01:24:12   I don't remember WebOS.

01:24:13   It was a little bit of a mess.

01:24:14   It had some bad ideas, but it's not a desktop operating system or general purpose operating

01:24:18   system as we know it, right?

01:24:20   And you could even argue Android.

01:24:21   Like, I feel like the next -- what you'd be waiting for is the next great computing platform

01:24:25   after Android, essentially, because we've already got Android and iOS.

01:24:28   We've already erased Google, so Android is gone.

01:24:30   And then we erased Apple, so Apple is gone.

01:24:32   So we're left side of this void, right?

01:24:34   And I feel like the next thing to emerge would be more like webOS, iOS, and Android.

01:24:39   You're right that there would never be, with all your qualifiers, a great personal computing,

01:24:44   general personal computing platform as we know it, because I feel like that time has

01:24:48   passed.

01:24:49   And so it is true that we'd be losing a category of things, right?

01:24:53   And that would be sad for us because we're old, but there would indeed be a new great

01:24:59   computing platform.

01:25:00   it just wouldn't be recognizable to us as like a general purpose computing platform.

01:25:04   I mean, surely in this day and age, it would be entirely like locked down and filled with

01:25:07   an app store and all sorts of other stuff.

01:25:09   Exactly.

01:25:10   And probably be touch based or VR based or whatever.

01:25:12   And like...

01:25:13   And ad based.

01:25:14   You know.

01:25:15   Well, we'll see.

01:25:16   I mean, I thought you were going to say privacy.

01:25:17   That's what I thought you were going to say.

01:25:18   Because if you look at all these companies, which one of these even makes like...

01:25:23   Most of them don't even make faints in the direction of privacy, right?

01:25:26   I mean, Google, I feel like is kind of good on the security of its own data, but that's

01:25:30   just so it can data mine it for itself. It doesn't want to lend to the outside world,

01:25:34   right? But Apple is by far the strongest on data privacy for, you know, and even things

01:25:41   like energy, sustainability, and stuff like that. Apple's core values, under Tim Cook

01:25:54   or otherwise, these other companies don't express in the same strong way.

01:25:59   And so data privacy could be without Apple, how long would it take for another company

01:26:02   of that size to actually care about the privacy and security of your data to the point where

01:26:07   it's fighting the government to prevent it from turning stuff over?

01:26:10   That is not a value that is spread very far and wide in tech, so it would be a shame to

01:26:14   lose that as well.

01:26:15   It's an interesting quiz, for sure.

01:26:19   So now we can scroll down on the thing and see what everyone else picked.

01:26:21   So 57% pick Facebook as number one, which I think is interesting.

01:26:24   I mean, who knows?

01:26:25   Like, this is a self-selected thing.

01:26:26   Who's gonna click on these things?

01:26:27   Probably a bunch of tech nerds.

01:26:28   And I know there's a lot of hatred of Facebook

01:26:29   among tech nerds, but this is the New York Times,

01:26:32   by the way, it's on its thing.

01:26:33   So I'm thinking that maybe the audience is broader

01:26:36   than I might imagine.

01:26:37   Maybe it's not entirely tech nerds.

01:26:39   And what I want to believe is that it shows

01:26:44   that Facebook is popular because Facebook is popular,

01:26:47   but people don't really have that much love for it, right?

01:26:50   They're like, you have to be on Facebook

01:26:51   'cause everyone's on Facebook,

01:26:52   and everyone's on Facebook

01:26:53   everyone's on Facebook, but not universally beloved for whatever reason, whether it's

01:27:00   the software platform itself or the things people associate with it or they resent the

01:27:03   fact that they have to be there or whatever.

01:27:07   Microsoft and second, Microsoft is not on the way up.

01:27:14   I'm not saying it's on the way down, but it is in transition, so it doesn't surprise me.

01:27:18   Transition down.

01:27:19   Amazon third.

01:27:20   Amazon Third kind of surprises me because I would think more people would frame this

01:27:25   as here's a service that I use all the time and if I couldn't order from Amazon, but maybe

01:27:29   only tech nerds with more money than time order everything on Amazon.

01:27:35   I don't know.

01:27:36   Alphabet, assuming people knew what the hell Alphabet was.

01:27:38   Alphabet is third.

01:27:40   I think people like Google.

01:27:41   I think people like YouTube, especially YouTube.

01:27:43   I think people, you know, the general population don't want to, they just think of Google as

01:27:48   the way you search things, they don't know what the DuckDuckGo exists, they maybe heard

01:27:51   the word Bing once, Google's an essential thing, everything is Googling, and then YouTube,

01:27:56   if they're even aware that YouTube was part of it, they're gonna be like, "I'm not giving

01:27:59   up YouTube, YouTube is basically my TV." And then Apple, most people wanted to drop that

01:28:05   last because, I don't know, like, Apple customer sat and brand recognition and good feelings,

01:28:13   you know, people have a lot of good feelings about it. This is not a strict ranking, because

01:28:17   It really just tells you 32% chose to drop it last and 26% chose to drop Alphabet first.

01:28:23   So to slice and dice this data it would be difficult.

01:28:26   But anyway if you look at the little bar graphs at the bottom, Facebook dropped first.

01:28:30   It's just the runaway winner.

01:28:31   And then drop last.

01:28:32   Oh actually no, Google had a higher percentage of drop last.

01:28:36   So there you go, 40% for Google and 32% for Apple.

01:28:39   So two companies with a recognizable brand that people really, really like and Facebook,

01:28:45   Somebody likes them.

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01:30:31   (upbeat music)

01:30:34   - Marco, you wanna talk to us about how you don't believe

01:30:38   in Dropbox anymore, and that would have been

01:30:40   your first one to go if you had the option?

01:30:42   (Marco laughs)

01:30:43   Yeah, so maybe about a month or two ago now,

01:30:47   I forget exactly when it was, about a month ago maybe,

01:30:50   I decided to try a life without Dropbox, basically.

01:30:54   I still have my account, but I uninstalled it

01:30:57   from all of my computers, and I stopped using it

01:31:01   for anything except I logged onto the website

01:31:04   to download the audio files that you guys give me

01:31:06   every week for this podcast.

01:31:07   And there were a number of reasons

01:31:11   why I wanted to drop Dropbox.

01:31:13   Their software on the Mac has gotten increasingly

01:31:17   invasive of the system.

01:31:20   It does creepy things like trying to hack

01:31:22   the accessibility database and installing

01:31:24   kernel extensions and things, all in the name

01:31:27   of features that I don't want.

01:31:30   The accessibility thing I think was about

01:31:34   sucking in photos or something,

01:31:36   and the kernel extensions are for things like

01:31:39   their project infinite file system thing

01:31:41   that I don't need or want.

01:31:43   And there's no good options to just say,

01:31:46   no, please don't do this, thanks,

01:31:47   just give me the basic thing that uses

01:31:49   the supported API in Mac OS to do this,

01:31:53   the stuff that you're doing for syncing a folder.

01:31:55   All I really want is a synced folder.

01:31:57   That's all I really want out of this thing.

01:32:00   Basically the thing it used to be.

01:32:01   And so all these features I figure,

01:32:03   all this stuff that I don't want or use

01:32:05   that are part of Dropbox now,

01:32:07   let's see what else I can get away with.

01:32:09   And what I've settled on at the moment

01:32:13   is I just moved everything to iCloud Drive.

01:32:15   Because I already pay for iCloud storage for all my photos.

01:32:18   I already have all Apple devices that I'm running this on,

01:32:21   with one important exception,

01:32:23   which is my server that runs my blog engine,

01:32:25   which I'll get to.

01:32:26   But for the most part,

01:32:28   iCloud Drive should work fine for me.

01:32:30   So let's see how this goes.

01:32:32   So far, it's mostly fine.

01:32:37   But I think I'm gonna go back anyway.

01:32:39   In everyday use, everything's fine with iCloud Drive.

01:32:42   I even, to make the transition easier

01:32:44   with some of my muscle memory of running shell scripts

01:32:46   in my Dropbox folder, I sim-linked home/Dropbox

01:32:51   to whatever the crazy path is, like mobile documents,

01:32:56   whatever the path is to the actual iCloud Drive folder

01:33:00   on your Mac, I sim-linked home/Dropbox to that.

01:33:03   So I at least start, you know, everything is kind of

01:33:06   where I expect it to be if I get into like a muscle memory

01:33:10   of like, you know, going to the Dropbox folder

01:33:11   or running a script from there, whatever else.

01:33:13   So that was actually a very easy progression.

01:33:15   As far as I can tell, doing that has not caused

01:33:18   anything really weird to happen.

01:33:19   Although I do keep running out of file descriptors,

01:33:22   but it's probably not really, it's probably not that.

01:33:25   (laughing)

01:33:26   - Mm, an OSF.

01:33:27   (laughing)

01:33:28   - Anyway, so.

01:33:29   (laughing)

01:33:31   So for sharing my own files between my computers,

01:33:36   like the basic synced folder,

01:33:38   iCloud Drive has been totally fine for me.

01:33:40   I haven't noticed any kind of weird data loss.

01:33:43   Everything is always right there when I want it.

01:33:45   One of the interesting things about it is

01:33:47   because it kinda has like infinite background privileges

01:33:51   on iOS, I was out working today

01:33:55   out in the world on my iPad.

01:33:58   Not something I actually do very often,

01:34:00   but I was doing it today for various reasons.

01:34:03   Number one, cellular Macs don't exist.

01:34:06   But anyway, I was doing this and I went to the iCloud Drive

01:34:10   app on my iPad for the very first time.

01:34:12   I have never launched it before.

01:34:14   And all my stuff was there.

01:34:16   And all the files that I wanted to access

01:34:18   were already there because it is always

01:34:21   working in the background.

01:34:21   It is privileged.

01:34:22   It has Apple's blessing to do whatever it wants.

01:34:25   So unlike Dropbox, which can only work

01:34:27   if I had already ever launched it, first of all,

01:34:30   and then whenever it gets a background update,

01:34:32   but then the system controls that and limits it,

01:34:34   and if I never use it, it won't really get any.

01:34:36   So it has privileges on Apple platforms

01:34:40   that Dropbox can't have.

01:34:43   I mean, on the Mac, I guess it can, but on iOS, it can't.

01:34:46   So for the most part, for just that purpose

01:34:49   of sharing your own files between your own devices,

01:34:52   iCloud Drive has been totally fine for me.

01:34:54   The main areas that hurt are, number one,

01:34:59   I built my blog engine on Dropbox.

01:35:00   Now, I don't blog very often anymore,

01:35:02   and that's a separate discussion, and I want to change that.

01:35:06   But one of the main problems with this is that

01:35:09   now I don't have a way to edit my blog,

01:35:12   except for SSHing into my server

01:35:15   and using vim in the terminal to edit text files.

01:35:18   - The old ways are best.

01:35:19   - Yeah. - Stick to that.

01:35:21   - Which is clumsy, to say the least.

01:35:23   I could also just switch to a regular CMS,

01:35:26   but you know I'm not gonna do that.

01:35:27   - It's a crazy talk.

01:35:28   - Yeah, exactly, you know me, I know me,

01:35:30   that's not gonna happen.

01:35:31   And so that's, yeah, so that has been a pain.

01:35:36   And a bigger pain has been our shared folder for this show.

01:35:41   The way we do the show is that this is a common thing.

01:35:45   You guys give me audio files every week

01:35:47   from your recording, I take them out of the Dropbox folder,

01:35:49   I make a project, record it, sync it all up

01:35:53   and edit it and everything else and publish it.

01:35:55   We also work together on certain files and folders

01:35:58   within that shared folder.

01:35:59   So when we're doing things like t-shirt designs,

01:36:02   we're working often with shared files in that folder.

01:36:07   And this is an area that as far as I know,

01:36:10   iCloud Drive has nothing to offer.

01:36:11   There are no, as far as I know, right,

01:36:13   there's no collaborative iCloud Drive folder syncing options.

01:36:18   And maybe at the RBC, maybe they'll change that.

01:36:21   So maybe I should wait.

01:36:22   But for the most part, as far as I know,

01:36:24   that doesn't exist.

01:36:25   So collaborating with other people

01:36:27   and working with other people in a shared folder,

01:36:30   that seems like I'm gonna have to either go without that

01:36:35   or do what I do now,

01:36:36   which is just download stuff off the web interface,

01:36:37   but that makes it, it's much less convenient

01:36:40   to actually work in the folders with you guys.

01:36:43   I guess one thing, if you're just giving me files

01:36:45   and I just have to download them, that's fine.

01:36:47   But if we are working together on something

01:36:49   where we're all kind of editing stuff in a folder together,

01:36:53   the web interface is going to suck royally for that.

01:36:56   I should not be using that.

01:36:57   So basically I'm probably gonna go back to Dropbox

01:37:02   because of those two big things of shared folders

01:37:04   and it isn't just you guys,

01:37:05   like I occasionally need it for other things

01:37:07   but this show is the one that happens most often.

01:37:10   But so basically Dropbox shared folders

01:37:13   and the blog engine problem.

01:37:15   Now I could install another cloud service

01:37:18   to do these things.

01:37:19   I could for instance use something like

01:37:21   whatever the new name is for BitTorrent Sync,

01:37:23   what is it, it's Rosilio, yeah.

01:37:25   I could do that.

01:37:26   There's a bunch of other things that are kind of like that.

01:37:30   Other various services and products

01:37:32   that will behave like Dropbox.

01:37:34   So maybe I should try some of those first.

01:37:37   But it's probably gonna be hard to ever address

01:37:40   the shared folder problem with those things because--

01:37:43   - Google Drive will do it.

01:37:44   - Well, I'm not installing that.

01:37:46   - Why not?

01:37:48   Google Drive is fine.

01:37:49   - I trust Google even less than Dropbox.

01:37:51   - I have a terabyte of Google Drive stuff

01:37:53   and I'm like, I'll stop paying for that one.

01:37:54   I don't need it anymore.

01:37:55   but I don't, it's nice to have.

01:37:56   I mean, I still prefer Dropbox, but Google Drive

01:37:58   and OneDrive, which is not as terrible as you think it is.

01:38:02   Speaking as someone who has had it forcibly installed

01:38:05   on their Mac at work.

01:38:06   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:38:08   The problem I have is that all the other options

01:38:11   sound worse to me, like the ones that are from big companies

01:38:14   like Google Drive or I think even Amazon

01:38:17   has something like this and Box.

01:38:20   - Box is worse, you're right about that.

01:38:22   - So yeah, so this thing, I think all of these things

01:38:24   are worse in some way.

01:38:26   And to address the shared folder problem,

01:38:30   I pretty much need to use what everyone else around me

01:38:32   is using, and around our community and around these parts,

01:38:36   that's Dropbox, no question, it's always Dropbox.

01:38:38   So I basically have to decide how much am I willing

01:38:42   to fight Dropbox or to fight not having Dropbox.

01:38:47   How much is that worth to me versus how annoying is it

01:38:52   to just have it and tolerate its crappy Mac client.

01:38:55   And I'm leaning more towards reinstalling it

01:38:59   just because not having it has been a pain

01:39:02   in those two big areas.

01:39:03   But we will see, I don't know.

01:39:05   I haven't made any final decisions yet.

01:39:06   What do you guys think?

01:39:07   - Didn't you disable the privilege,

01:39:10   accessibility, blah, blah, blah thing?

01:39:13   - I just say no every time it boots up

01:39:14   and it says we need your password to work properly.

01:39:17   I'm like no you don't.

01:39:18   I know you're lying to me Dropbox.

01:39:19   I just say no, I just say cancel every time I reboot.

01:39:22   But that pisses me off, like why should I have to say that?

01:39:25   - You should let it, it's probably dumb enough

01:39:27   that you can let it install and then modify the things

01:39:30   such that the OS will refuse to run them,

01:39:32   and so the check to see that it has successfully installed

01:39:34   will return true, but then they'll never actually run

01:39:37   and you'll get some errors in your console.

01:39:38   Like you just chmod the files too,

01:39:40   because it's, especially with the kernel extension,

01:39:42   Mac OS is super picky about the permissions

01:39:44   of every single thing having to do

01:39:46   with the kernel extension for good reasons.

01:39:49   If you just flip on the right bit, unlike group or other on one file, the OS will refuse

01:39:54   to load it and it'll just show an error to the log.

01:39:55   And I bet you that Dropbox is dumb enough that when it tries to see whether it needs

01:40:00   to prompt you, it will just look to see if like a file exists and it's not getting down

01:40:04   to the permission level.

01:40:05   Who knows?

01:40:06   Anyway, there are possible ways to hack around that.

01:40:08   Or you can just let it do what it does, because I let it do what it does.

01:40:10   I don't use the infinite thing.

01:40:12   I don't think I ever will.

01:40:16   Dropbox occasionally gets flipped out because it tries to drink from the firehose of file

01:40:21   system events.

01:40:22   Yep, right.

01:40:23   And I wish it would drink from a smaller firehose of just the file system events that happen

01:40:28   inside the Dropbox folder.

01:40:30   But my impression, based on the activity of DBFS event D or whatever the hell that thing

01:40:33   is called, is that it's flipping out when stuff is going on on the file system that

01:40:39   is not inside the Dropbox folder.

01:40:41   And I wish it would just chill out.

01:40:44   But other than that, which I can solve by quitting Dropbox, which by the way is a thing

01:40:47   I can't do as easily with the iCloud Drive thing, I prefer it.

01:40:50   And I'm still terrified of iCloud Drive because of the weird behaviors that I've seen with

01:40:56   weird locked files that can't be opened or deleted anywhere and no recourse and no ability

01:41:01   to turn it on and off and no way to control the indication of download state or force

01:41:06   things to download, no way to pin files to my iOS devices.

01:41:09   I don't know if that's even true, but I'm assuming it is.

01:41:12   features that I have with Dropbox, I just find Dropbox so much more tractable because

01:41:16   it is a third-party thing. And I am concerned about the increasing invasiveness, but as

01:41:20   long as, practically speaking, it doesn't do anything bad to my computer, and if I need

01:41:25   to turn it off I can, I'm still definitely sticking with that. And I do have Google Drive

01:41:28   installed and OneNote and a bunch of other things, and occasionally I fire up Google

01:41:32   Drive, and I think it's fine. Google Drive is fine, I just prefer Dropbox for now. And,

01:41:36   as you said, the network effect. It's the reason, you know, you're using it because

01:41:39   'cause everyone else is using it.

01:41:40   It's just the way people collaborate

01:41:42   and that's just difficult to overcome.

01:41:45   - Casey, what should I do?

01:41:47   - Think you should take off your tinfoil hat.

01:41:49   You should reinstall Dropbox

01:41:50   and when we all get all of our data stolen and leaked,

01:41:53   then you can blame me.

01:41:55   - Cool.

01:41:56   Thanks for our three sponsors this week,

01:41:58   Warby Parker, Squarespace, and Away.

01:42:00   And we will see you next week.

01:42:02   (upbeat music)

01:42:05   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:42:07   They didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

01:42:11   (Accidental)

01:42:12   Oh, it was accidental.

01:42:14   (Accidental)

01:42:15   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, 'cause it was accidental.

01:42:21   (Accidental)

01:42:22   Oh, it was accidental.

01:42:24   (Accidental)

01:42:25   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:42:30   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:42:40   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:42:44   Auntie Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse

01:42:51   It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:42:55   They didn't mean to, accidental (accidental)

01:43:00   Tech by cast so long

01:43:04   So what's the drama with your switch scenario at home? Because we were talking in the relay chat

01:43:10   It seems as though you are in an impossible predicament where you would like to buy another switch

01:43:17   But there are deep penalties for doing so

01:43:19   Yet if you don't buy another switch you will never play the switch because Tiff basically is taking it over

01:43:24   I thought you're gonna talk about him putting the little slidey thing on the joy con the wrong way

01:43:28   Well, there's that too.

01:43:30   I was setting up Mario Kart for kids, and I was trying to do it quickly.

01:43:33   This is why you can't have nice things.

01:43:35   Yeah.

01:43:36   Why does it go on the wrong way if it blocks it there?

01:43:39   Plus goes to plus, minus goes to minus.

01:43:41   Match the shapes.

01:43:43   I didn't notice that at first, though, in Marco's defense.

01:43:45   I did eventually notice a plus and plus and minus and minus, but at first I did not notice

01:43:49   it.

01:43:50   Well, and I wasn't using the wrong one for the controller.

01:43:52   I was using the correct one, but backwards.

01:43:54   I know, but you didn't match up the symbols.

01:43:56   They go next to each other.

01:43:58   Why does it go on backwards?

01:44:00   - Yeah, I like the fact that you had to resort

01:44:01   to a YouTube video to get out of it.

01:44:03   Like basically if there was no internet,

01:44:04   you would be at home staring at this,

01:44:06   like staring at your broken toy, being like.

01:44:08   - Do you wanna rethink your ordering from earlier now?

01:44:10   - No, I (laughs)

01:44:12   Maybe.

01:44:12   No, I really was about to get a screwdriver out

01:44:14   and start disassembling it to try to get this thing off

01:44:16   because like I, remember, I forget which one,

01:44:19   there were like two or three Samsung phones ago

01:44:22   where like if you put the stylus in the slot the wrong way,

01:44:26   it would just get stuck in there forever.

01:44:28   Like, why is the Switch designed in such a way that you can so easily attach these two

01:44:35   very commonly attached parts in the wrong direction?

01:44:38   And when you do, it gets stuck really hard.

01:44:41   I think the Switch hardware is not Nintendo-like in so many ways.

01:44:45   That it is delicate and fragile and you can easily do the wrong thing.

01:44:49   And it is weirdly not—and it's not like Nintendo doesn't have a history of making

01:44:54   portable devices.

01:44:55   look at the huge history of portal devices and almost all of them are rugged to the point

01:45:00   of Fisher-Priceness and very difficult to do something wrong with.

01:45:05   Like the original FireWire connector supposedly was inspired by the Game Boy Kinect thing

01:45:09   of having, you know, what was novel at the time, a connector that can only go in correctly

01:45:13   one way and it can be plugged and unplugged lots of times and still be sturdy.

01:45:17   And then the Switch comes along and it's, I mean, it kind of started switching to it

01:45:22   Wii U with making stuff glossy to try to make it look more sort of pro and fancy. I'm not

01:45:26   going to say Apple-like, but like less Fisher Price-like, let's say, for the Wii U and like

01:45:31   the Wii U Pro Controller, especially the glossy black model being the high end. And the Switch

01:45:35   is just like, what is this, a Sony device? Like, it looks Sony-ish. It looks like, you

01:45:41   know, a PSP, right down to the delicate little bits that seem like they could break off and

01:45:46   the ability to put things on backwards. It should never be possible to do that. It should

01:45:49   be super rugged but you know but it is fun to make fun of Margo for doing that

01:45:54   but he doesn't follow gaming websites so he doesn't he didn't see the 8,000

01:45:58   stories when the switch was launched about putting those things on backwards

01:46:00   yeah you're right exactly so I just did it tonight when as I was trying to set

01:46:03   up these controllers for two kids to play Mario Kart with us and yeah who is

01:46:07   it was tough anyway but besides that I am greatly enjoying the switch because

01:46:14   now Mario Kart came out and I'm having so much fun with this such incredibly fun game.

01:46:21   And if you are the kind of video game person who has already played it on the Wii U like

01:46:27   John it's not much new for you.

01:46:29   >> Jon R

01:46:29   60 frames per second but as somebody who hasn't played Mario Kart since the Nintendo 64 version. Hey, buddy

01:46:35   Hey, right. It is so much fun

01:46:37   and so I really am quite enjoying this and

01:46:42   It really literally is fun for the whole family

01:46:45   we like now Adams playing and and like all the the auto steer or like the the kind of bumper cars version of it that

01:46:53   John was complaining about last week is indeed a problem when adults are playing and you don't realize little antennas in the back of

01:46:58   their car, but the combination of that and the automatic acceleration is awesome for

01:47:05   having small children play, because they can play with the whole family and not be too,

01:47:11   too far behind, not get themselves stuck and have to try to show them how to reverse. It's

01:47:17   really nice. And in addition to it just being a really fun Mario Kart racing game for adults

01:47:24   when they're playing it in the normal or hard modes.

01:47:28   I'm just having so much fun with this game.

01:47:30   The only downside to this game is that I'm going to have

01:47:33   to buy more pro controllers probably,

01:47:34   so it's going to cost a lot of money that way.

01:47:36   And also, the Switch is still mostly being dominated

01:47:40   by Tiff and Adam playing Zelda.

01:47:42   - As it should be.

01:47:43   - And I also thought, there will be times

01:47:48   when I want a second Switch dock.

01:47:50   So for instance, when we go to a beach house

01:47:53   in the summertime or we have a second TV in our playroom

01:47:57   and so maybe somebody's using the main TV

01:47:59   but I don't wanna play on the small screen.

01:48:00   Maybe I wanna play on it back there.

01:48:02   Let me see if I can get a second dock.

01:48:03   How much could it cost?

01:48:05   40 bucks?

01:48:06   Nope, 90 bucks.

01:48:07   (laughing)

01:48:09   - Another story that if you had read the gaming press

01:48:11   you would have seen a million of around lunchtime

01:48:13   or when the prices were announced people were shocked.

01:48:15   People were also shocked by the way

01:48:16   with how much the pro controller costs.

01:48:17   - Yeah, yeah, 'cause that's like 70, right?

01:48:18   I have two of them now and I pay way too much.

01:48:22   (laughing)

01:48:25   So I started doing some research of like,

01:48:27   if I want a second dock and it's $90,

01:48:31   and a new Switch is only $250, that comes with it?

01:48:35   - $300.

01:48:35   - Oh, is it $300?

01:48:36   I don't know, it's hard to know what the real price is.

01:48:38   - This is the jump that Marco makes very quickly.

01:48:41   - $90, $300, they're basically the same, right?

01:48:44   - Nears makes no difference.

01:48:45   - Well, it's like, well, do I need more Joy-Cons?

01:48:47   I thought I was gonna need one a few hours ago

01:48:50   'cause I thought I broke one of mine.

01:48:52   So I started adding stuff and I go, actually, this isn't that ridiculous that maybe we

01:48:59   should just get a second Switch, that way Tiff can play Zelda on the main TV and I can

01:49:03   go in the back room and play Mario Kart.

01:49:05   And then I can take one when I travel to the other side of the sea and Tiff can stay here

01:49:08   and play with Adam and everything else.

01:49:10   So I started asking around with friends like Jon of like, how does that actually work with

01:49:14   like game transfers and like I bought all these games digitally, I don't have cartridges

01:49:18   for any of them on John's advice, which in most cases is good. And that was the right

01:49:23   decision.

01:49:24   No, no, no, no.

01:49:25   But I was saying, the carts won't save you. Like, even if you had it held on a cart and

01:49:28   then you plugged into the other thing, the save data is not on the cart. So it's not

01:49:31   helping you.

01:49:32   Right. So I'm basically running into all of the issues of being a Nintendo fan that

01:49:38   Nintendo fans have been yelling about for like 10 years. And I was just never really

01:49:43   a part of it because I was kind of out of the game, so to speak, for all that time.

01:49:47   And now that I come back in from Mario Kart,

01:49:49   and I'm like, man, wouldn't it be great

01:49:50   if I had a second system, or first,

01:49:53   let me just get a second HDMI dock.

01:49:55   Wow, that's expensive.

01:49:56   Oh, okay, let me get a couple more controllers.

01:49:58   My God, those are expensive.

01:50:00   Oh, well, I bought my games digitally.

01:50:01   Let me see if I can just download them to a second console.

01:50:04   Wow, that system kind of sucks and is very limited.

01:50:06   Okay, how about our save game?

01:50:08   Will that transfer?

01:50:09   Nope, that won't, it's like,

01:50:11   all the things, again, like, Nintendo fan,

01:50:13   this is not news to anybody who's been a Nintendo fan,

01:50:15   forever, but because I haven't been, this is all new to me.

01:50:20   Well, I'll take issue with one thing Jon just said, though, that the cart wouldn't help.

01:50:24   It would help in getting the software between the two devices.

01:50:28   I agree it will not help in any way, shape, or form with the save, but it will absolutely

01:50:32   help with getting the game in between the devices quickly and easily without any sort

01:50:37   of fuss.

01:50:38   Well, it can only be activated on one device, but I bet if you downloaded it onto both,

01:50:42   you could just, like, activate/deactivate.

01:50:43   I don't know.

01:50:44   I've never tried it.

01:50:45   In theory it might be better, but I really would not relish the idea of taking those

01:50:49   tiny little cartridges in and out and walking them back and forth from even just within

01:50:53   your house.

01:50:54   Because talk about something that could easily get like vacuumed up or eaten by a dumb dog

01:50:58   or all sorts of other things that could happen to — dogs aren't smart.

01:51:02   It's also when it comes to things that should or shouldn't be eaten, let's say.

01:51:08   My dog particularly loves cat poop, so you know, the bad tasting Nintendo cartridge,

01:51:13   forget it.

01:51:14   They also don't chew and apparently don't taste things so it's like one swallow and it's gone.

01:51:17   Yeah, I wouldn't relish doing that and

01:51:21   I don't know what's worse. Is the having it downloaded on both of them

01:51:27   but only active on one versus carrying a cart back and forth?

01:51:30   Oh, you are way over blowing the difficulty of the cartridge.

01:51:34   I have cartridges for both Zelda and Mario Kart and I have to swap between them when I want to play different games and

01:51:39   you are way way way over blowing how difficult it is to keep track of them.

01:51:42   No, I'm saying if you're walking across the house, like which room is it in from one side

01:51:46   to the other, and just wait until Declan eats one of those cards.

01:51:48   I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

01:51:51   My house isn't that big.

01:51:52   No, the transfer between the two places means you're not sure which location it is, which

01:51:57   means you're not sure where it is period, which means it can get lost.

01:51:59   They're very tiny.

01:52:00   I mean, if it was an N64 cart, you'd be okay, but these are not N64 carts.

01:52:04   Fair enough.

01:52:05   Yeah, I don't know.

01:52:07   I will say, though, that I've been deeply enjoying both Mario Kart and Zelda, and much

01:52:11   Much to my own surprise, I have almost as much time in Mario Kart as I do in Zelda.

01:52:19   And I think that comes back to what I believe I was saying on this show, it might have been

01:52:21   analog, that I just find it much easier to just kind of pick up Mario Kart and play,

01:52:27   where to me, yeah, we were talking about it on this show, where to me, Zelda's not quite

01:52:30   so simple because I am not good at video games and so I need the context.

01:52:34   You don't have what it takes to save Hyrule is what you're getting at.

01:52:37   Basically.

01:52:38   The world is just going to go unsaved.

01:52:39   Yeah, that's correct.

01:52:40   You're gonna say well it seems like a lot of work to save the world when I just go run in circles few times in

01:52:44   This car racing game, right? Yeah to me as somebody who's only watched Zelda and not actually played it because I really am not into that

01:52:51   Kind of game at all to me. It's like sitting down for watching an epic film

01:52:57   Versus like watching a quick YouTube video for fun

01:53:00   But like I said this Zelda is the is incredibly easy to pick up and do a small amount of things

01:53:05   I don't think you'll actually ever finish the game by sitting down in a small amount of things

01:53:09   But it is it doesn't force you to say I'm gonna do the next dungeon like the old Zelda games that you can do a

01:53:14   Very small amount of things pick up at any time do a little thing and and stop and the way it

01:53:19   This is one thing that Nintendo has actually finally gotten right the way you can put the system to sleep

01:53:24   And it wakes back up and you're like literally back at the exact second you put it to sleep

01:53:28   Yeah, sounds like you something you would take for granted

01:53:30   But it is taking intent of this long to successfully do that

01:53:33   That makes it so much easier to pick up

01:53:36   I mean even just for me like I will pick up the switch

01:53:40   This is the main time I use it in portable mode like and do my amiibo random reward thing

01:53:46   Because it's just easy to do turn it on

01:53:47   I'm exactly where I left off hit a button

01:53:49   Hit the little NFC thing open up my chest see what I got put it back to sleep

01:53:53   There's no way I would do that if I had to boot it up or load a game or wait for a long turning on

01:53:59   Sequence or something like that and again, this sounds like stuff you should take for granted the other modern consoles have done forever

01:54:04   But now Nintendo is finally did in that aspect

01:54:06   We're just still waiting for them to understand how the hell this crazy online thing works because they haven't figured it out yet

01:54:11   Do you guys have your switches nearby by chance?

01:54:14   No, it's in the other room. Ah, you suck

01:54:17   What are you gonna play now?

01:54:19   No, I would never do that

01:54:21   You to hone your games

01:54:27   200cc comes auto-unlocked in this, right?

01:54:30   - Yeah, almost everything is unlocked from the start.

01:54:32   Like all the tracks, as far as I know, right?

01:54:33   - It's too easy for you to person-appress.

01:54:34   - All the characters, the only things,

01:54:36   like some of the tires and stuff you need to unlock.

01:54:39   - Yeah, although that is disappointing.

01:54:40   I haven't spent enough time in it to unlock my favorite.

01:54:43   The card I usually use is the F-Zero one.

01:54:45   They have like a little F-Zero looking thing.

01:54:45   - Oh yeah, I have that one.

01:54:46   The blue Falcon, I think.

01:54:48   - Yeah, that's a lot of the ones I like,

01:54:49   and I think I haven't unlocked it yet.

01:54:50   But no, in the original Mario Kart 8,

01:54:51   you had to slowly unlock things,

01:54:53   and a lot of the things were DLC,

01:54:55   like a lot of the additional tracks,

01:54:56   but this has all the DLC and everything unlocked

01:54:59   except for some of the kart stuff and 200cc.

01:55:01   200cc didn't even exist in Mario Kart 8 for a long time.

01:55:03   That was, I think, part of a DLC pack.

01:55:05   150 was the top, so I three-starred all of 150,

01:55:08   and 200cc came out and I was like, no, I'm not doing that.

01:55:10   But I've three-starred a couple of them in 200cc.

01:55:14   I don't think I'm gonna do all of them.

01:55:16   - One of my favorite things about Mario Kart,

01:55:18   as somebody who was out of it for so long,

01:55:21   is that if you are familiar with the Nintendo 64 version

01:55:25   and its mechanics and the way the vehicles handle

01:55:28   and the controls and how the weapons handle,

01:55:32   how you can hold onto stuff behind you

01:55:34   and how you do the jumping skid thing

01:55:35   and how you can hold the skid and everything else,

01:55:38   all of that muscle memory translates perfectly.

01:55:41   Everything still handles pretty much the exact same way.

01:55:44   It still feels like that game.

01:55:46   And so you're able to, at least I was able to,

01:55:48   jump in and pretty much know how to play immediately.

01:55:52   And actually I can say the same thing for TIFF

01:55:55   and for some of our friends who have played it.

01:55:57   Everyone I've seen pick up this game

01:55:58   has just immediately gotten it

01:56:00   because we all played the N64 version back in the day

01:56:03   and it just, it handles the same way.

01:56:06   It's new but familiar.

01:56:08   - It does not handle the same way.

01:56:10   - It totally does.

01:56:11   - By any stretch of the imagination, no.

01:56:13   I mean it is the same conceptually but like,

01:56:16   I don't know, you have to be a Mario Kart connoisseur, but Mario Kart's handling is

01:56:20   so unlike the N64 one, which is in turn unlike Double Dash.

01:56:26   Maybe the closest you could say is that Mario Kart 8 is a little bit like the Wii version,

01:56:30   but I find the handling very, very different, shockingly different between those different

01:56:35   versions of Mario Kart, so much so that it's almost hard to believe that they're the same

01:56:38   game, that they have the same graphics and everything.

01:56:40   You're right, the concepts are all the same, the things you're doing are more or less the

01:56:43   same, but Mario Kart 8 is a nice compromise between, well, I don't know.

01:56:49   Double Dash is my favorite in terms of handling.

01:56:51   That's how I wish all of them handled.

01:56:53   The Wii version was a little bit floaty, the N64 version was a little bit imprecise and

01:56:57   you had sprites going on there, so it was a little bit of a mess and there was a lot

01:57:00   of hopping, so it was very different.

01:57:01   There's no hopping.

01:57:02   Remember N64 hopping?

01:57:03   No hopping in this.

01:57:04   Lately.

01:57:05   Mm-hmm.

01:57:06   Right?

01:57:07   But yeah, Mario Kart 8 doesn't feel as floaty as the Wii version.

01:57:12   It's not as snappy and precise as Double Dash, but it is a nice compromise.

01:57:16   It is all round, in the middle, nicely rounded handling.

01:57:22   But it doesn't feel as precise to me in terms of the racing as my favorites.

01:57:28   My only complaint about it is that when I first started playing it, I was able to immediately

01:57:33   figure out how to handle the cars and everything, but I had a lot of trouble figuring out what

01:57:37   do all these different tires do and what are the different air foils do and what

01:57:42   is the deal with that because I still haven't really figured that out well so

01:57:45   and and also I didn't even realize like what what are the coins for like what

01:57:48   are they what are the coins do and like there's so much so much help with it

01:57:51   with your game right and so what so I went online and just searched for it

01:57:54   because the first thing I want to know is like what are the actual like weight

01:57:57   classes of these characters that I don't recognize weight classes that's not how

01:58:01   it works and well and so so I went and found like there's this be like IGN like

01:58:06   like wiki kind of thing that has all these numbers.

01:58:08   - They have iOS apps you can download actually.

01:58:09   - So now I finally understand.

01:58:12   I took like 20 minutes to read all that stuff

01:58:13   and I read about the thing how like,

01:58:15   if you hop off of a jump, you get a little boost

01:58:17   and I figured out what the little anti-grav things were

01:58:20   and how they worked and like all the stuff

01:58:22   that everyone who's playing it just kind of knows

01:58:24   'cause this was probably introduced over the last seven years

01:58:26   in various iterations of this game,

01:58:27   but the last one I played was N64 versions

01:58:30   so that was a long time ago

01:58:31   and I didn't have things like coins and jump boosts

01:58:35   and any-grav wheels and things like that.

01:58:38   - So what is the deal with the different wheels

01:58:41   and sales and whatnot?

01:58:43   How does that empirically affect--

01:58:44   - Do you guys both know how to show the stats,

01:58:46   which they frustratingly don't show by default

01:58:48   and don't remember your preferences about?

01:58:49   - No, I didn't know that.

01:58:50   - When you're picking a car, you hit the plus button.

01:58:53   - Or say, "What?"

01:58:54   - It's another thing that annoys you about Mario Kart 8

01:58:57   is they don't remember your preference for that.

01:59:00   So every time you go to that screen, you have to hit it.

01:59:02   The other thing, I don't know if this is true

01:59:04   America 8 Deluxe, what I'm pretty sure it is, when you hit the plus, you will see the

01:59:09   stats for the things and you'll notice that the wheels change your stats.

01:59:12   I don't know if wings change your stats, but anyway.

01:59:14   Not all, some of the wings change your stats, but it's in very minor ways.

01:59:18   But anyway, really, you shouldn't obsess too much about that because a lot of it comes

01:59:24   down to, here's the two things, here's my advice for picking stats.

01:59:27   When you are not good at the courses or not good at the game, pick acceleration over anything

01:59:30   else because if you are going to get hit or make a bad turn or whatever, the most important

01:59:36   thing is to get up to speed faster.

01:59:39   And if you also have difficulty and fall off the course ladder or aren't familiar with

01:59:44   whatever, prefer handling.

01:59:46   So the fastest cars are the ones that have bad acceleration, high top speed, and handle

01:59:51   slowly and those are the hardest to race and it will make you feel like you're worse at

01:59:54   the game.

01:59:55   I've never really built up to the point where I liked using those.

01:59:59   And seeing speed runners use high acceleration, low top speed things for the handling purposes

02:00:03   leads me to believe that those are a sucker's bet.

02:00:06   So a lot of them are like, "Wow, great speed!

02:00:08   Look at the top speed!

02:00:09   I'll use this thing like the big Mercedes car, like the shiny gold one from one of the

02:00:13   earlier mirrors."

02:00:14   Huge top speed, cruddy handling, you will never get a good time with that.

02:00:18   You'll never win a race, especially when a million items are flying at you.

02:00:21   So those are the stats I would look at, handling acceleration and ignore speed.

02:00:26   if you have decent handling acceleration

02:00:28   and you use your boost and that's the wing formula.

02:00:32   - Interesting, I'll have to check that out.

02:00:34   I didn't know you could do that.

02:00:35   - And yeah, hop on it if you're off of jumps.

02:00:37   - Yeah, it seems like the character matters the most

02:00:41   and then the car is like a small multiplier on that

02:00:44   and then the tires seem to be a smaller multiplier on that

02:00:47   and then the wing has like a very slight modifier.

02:00:50   - And don't forget about bikes.

02:00:52   - Yeah, so why should I use bikes or not use bikes?

02:00:54   I haven't tried one yet.

02:00:56   - I have never taken a shine to bikes,

02:00:59   but my impression is that bikes have potentially different

02:01:04   or better handling characteristics than cars.

02:01:06   I'm not sure what they give up.

02:01:07   I've just never, like, whatever is different about bikes,

02:01:10   Ameri-Kart 8, I have not, it has not worked with me.

02:01:14   So I just ignore them, pretend they don't exist,

02:01:16   and I just do everything on karts.

02:01:17   But your mileage may vary.

02:01:18   - Usually I go the opposite way.

02:01:19   Usually I play as Bowser in some kind of big, heavy thing,

02:01:21   'cause I appreciate the high top speed

02:01:23   that you were just telling me not to go for.

02:01:25   But you're handling this crap though.

02:01:26   Yeah, well I run off the track a lot, but then my top speed is--

02:01:30   And then you take so long to get back up to speed.

02:01:32   But my top speed is ridiculous, and I get to crash into anybody I want, and nothing

02:01:35   bad ever happens to me.

02:01:36   Well, bad things happen to you if you get hit with a shell.

02:01:38   I mean, it's not--anyway.

02:01:39   Bowser is probably good for like a non--if you don't--we're not racing with computers.

02:01:44   It was just a bunch of people, because then you do have a lot of defense about like bumping

02:01:47   people off the track and stuff like that.

02:01:48   But I still--I don't go in for that.

02:01:52   What do you play, Luigi?

02:01:53   You seem like a Luigi person.

02:01:54   No, I'm a Yoshi man. Same here. I've always been a Yoshi man. Mm-hmm. Same here.

02:01:59   I mean Yoshi was the obvious choice for the N64 because he was clearly the best character.

02:02:03   Yeah. But I feel like now maybe we have we have not only more balance, but also more options. Yeah, I mean really

02:02:09   I'm just picking like a mid

02:02:11   mid-range type of thing and you and it's because the N64 I'm picking it honestly like and I've carried Yoshi through all the way whether

02:02:18   He's the best character or not. Yoshi's my Yoshi's my thing. You get Yoshi in different colors now.

02:02:23   So how do you how does that work if you pick your own me as your player? I don't do that

02:02:28   I don't know you I've got outfits for myself though the me's actually it says that apparently the me's are the me's figure out their

02:02:35   Weight class based on like the the me's size and weight. Yeah, you got to use like we fit to try to change your weight class

02:02:42   Get a fat enough so you can be Bowser

02:02:45   So sitting here now Marco. What do you think you're gonna?

02:02:47   Do you're gonna get another switch at some point when you can actually get one now probably not I will probably just

02:02:53   just stick with what we have and just fight over it.

02:02:55   - That's a very Casey answer to the problem

02:02:57   and not a very Marco answer to the problem.

02:03:00   - Normally you'd be right, but so--

02:03:02   - If the game sinks work, he would already have bought one.

02:03:04   - Well, if I could get a hold of one, yeah, probably.

02:03:07   But yeah, so that, yeah, if there was a better

02:03:10   sink solution in place for both purchases

02:03:13   and for save game data, that would make that

02:03:16   a lot more compelling option, especially considering

02:03:19   like how much the accessories cost

02:03:21   how much comes with the Switch when you buy it.

02:03:24   So that would be a more compelling option in that case.

02:03:26   But because that is not an option,

02:03:28   or because there's no good solution there,

02:03:30   that then instead I will most likely just take what we have

02:03:34   and just hope that Tiff gets bored of Zelda pretty soon.

02:03:38   But I don't think that's on the horizon, so we'll see.

02:03:41   - How close is she to finishing?

02:03:43   - I can't tell you for sure.

02:03:45   I believe she has just defeated the last

02:03:48   big fire monster thing that you have to defeat and return to their saviors or whatever.

02:03:53   So it appears that they're fairly far in the game.

02:03:56   Well, because it's open world, you don't have to do anything.

02:04:00   You could go right to the final boss battle as soon as you get off of the tutorial area

02:04:04   essentially.

02:04:05   You'd probably die, but you could.

02:04:08   So she could go, and she could have gone before, to quote unquote finish the game, and she

02:04:12   could go now to quote unquote finish the game.

02:04:15   But merely doing that does not mean you are done with the game by a long shot.

02:04:19   I finished the game a long time ago and have put in tens of hours since then and have continued

02:04:24   to put hours into the game.

02:04:26   So just because she finishes the game, don't expect that you're going to get the thing

02:04:29   back.

02:04:30   Eventually she probably will get tired of it.

02:04:31   She's not going to find all 900 Korok seeds or anything.

02:04:34   But she might spend some more time trying to crank up her number of shrines.

02:04:42   And if she's paranoid about going into the final endgame with enough attributes, she

02:04:48   might spend some time increasing her number of hearts and stuff like that.

02:04:52   Are there any other games coming up that I'm going to want to play besides Mario Kart?

02:04:55   Are there any 2D Mario games on the horizon, or am I just going to convert to 3D because

02:04:59   now I'm apparently into Nintendo stuff?

02:05:01   Well, there's the 3D Mario coming out.

02:05:03   I think you will get that and play it, and you'll probably like it.

02:05:06   I don't remember what's on the schedule.

02:05:08   I mean, Splatoon, which you may or may not like.

02:05:11   Yeah, I've actually I've never played it. I don't even all I know is that everyone loves it, but I don't know

02:05:16   I can't even tell you what kind of game it is. It's a you run around and shoot paint on

02:05:20   People in different areas. It's kind of like a friendly shooter game instead of shooting bullets. You're shooting paint and painting areas

02:05:27   It's it's neat. Okay, so

02:05:30   Like and this is like I'm sure like all these characters in Mario Kart that I don't recognize

02:05:36   They're probably all from these different franchises that I've missed right like some of them appear be wearing paint smocks

02:05:40   Yeah, like the squid the squid people are from from splatoon arms is coming out which is a new IP which is kind of like

02:05:46   a weird

02:05:47   Boxing game with stretchy arms, which I really don't know how that's gonna be literally arms ARMS

02:05:52   I figured maybe it was like, you know armaments, but no it's actually arms like it

02:05:56   That's fantastic

02:05:58   Okay

02:06:01   Alright, yeah, so I shouldn't get a second one. I'll just I'll be patient with this one

02:06:05   You are the patience is not in your vocabulary sir. No, it's not. It's only a matter of time

02:06:10   You're probably right. It is I'm telling you what's gonna happen is I'm gonna call you one day from like target and say hey

02:06:17   I'm looking at a switch

02:06:19   Do you want me to send it to you and you're gonna say yes, and I'm gonna say and then I'm gonna say well

02:06:24   How fast would you like me to ship it and you're gonna say overnight and I'm gonna say really that's gonna be like another 50

02:06:29   Or $100 and you're gonna say yeah, that's fine. Just do it

02:06:32   That's exactly how this entire conversation will go.

02:06:35   I can guarantee it.

02:06:36   If you were Amazon, I could get up the next day for three bucks.

02:06:38   Well, I am not Amazon, unfortunately.

02:06:41   It looks like Rime might be coming out for Switch, unless I'm misreading Zarko.

02:06:44   I just googled just to see the lineup, and it's showing a bunch of games, like, "Yeah,

02:06:47   yeah, fighting game, Alex.

02:06:49   Alex, Marco, that other person, is not into this."

02:06:53   Rime?

02:06:54   Is this coming for Switch?

02:06:55   Tell me.

02:06:56   What's Rime?

02:06:57   It's a third-person little boy runner-up.

02:07:02   running around in a weird mysterious ancient world kind of thing.

02:07:04   Okay.

02:07:05   Yeah.

02:07:06   Like there's a lot of indie games coming is what I'm getting at.

02:07:09   I think they're saying it's coming to Switch.

02:07:11   F-Zero.

02:07:12   No.

02:07:13   F-Zero's coming?

02:07:14   No.

02:07:15   It's RedOut.

02:07:16   Oh, don't mess with my emotions, man.

02:07:17   Come on.

02:07:18   RedOut is F-Zero but not.

02:07:19   But Marko already has an F-Zero but not.

02:07:20   Yeah, I have the other one.

02:07:21   The Fast RMX, isn't it?

02:07:23   Yeah.

02:07:24   I haven't played it once since getting Mario Kart.

02:07:26   There's a bunch of little indie games that you might look at.

02:07:29   And honestly, Marco, I think probably what you're really interested in is probably the

02:07:33   next year when virtual console stuff ramps up.

02:07:36   Yeah, I would like to see that too.

02:07:37   Because, you know, all the stuff.

02:07:38   I mean, it's funny, like, you know, seeing like, you know, Zelda, which is basically,

02:07:43   you know, like a game that was obviously intended for the Wii U first, and then seeing Mario

02:07:47   Kart being released for the Switch that is really just a repackaging and slightly expanded

02:07:52   version of a Wii U game.

02:07:54   seems so new to people like me and Casey who totally ignored the Wii U. And I feel like

02:08:01   Nintendo is probably like screaming like, "Why didn't you care about these games before?"

02:08:06   as they rake in all the money.

02:08:07   Well, I think they're happy to say like we have a ready game library of like basically

02:08:11   already completed games that we just have to port that most people haven't seen. And

02:08:14   they're like, "Wow, this is great." And so I think it's a great, you know, I don't think

02:08:18   they're angry about it. I think they're happy that they don't have to develop all these

02:08:21   games from scratch, that they're sort of shovel-ready games to just chuck over there

02:08:24   and they're all new to you and everyone's happy to have them.

02:08:26   I think it really speaks to like not only how big of a flop the Wii U was, but also

02:08:30   just like the difference in reception between these two platforms. Like I think being somebody

02:08:36   who has been on the outside of it and who's only casually seen in here and there, the

02:08:41   Wii U, I was never tempted to get a Wii U. The Wii U seemed profoundly uncool and uncompelling

02:08:48   a lot of ways. And some of that might not have been warranted, but that's how it seemed

02:08:53   on the outside. And the Switch just seemed like the cool new thing that you have to get

02:08:57   in on and it's so nice and you get it and it's so fun. I know the Wii U was probably

02:09:02   that much fun also when it came out, but for whatever reason I was never tempted to get

02:09:08   a Wii U. Because it just seemed like such a bad idea for no good reason. Again, it seemed

02:09:16   uncool and uncompelling. And you make a few changes to the hardware and you release basically

02:09:23   the same games and now it's the coolest thing ever.

02:09:26   If you can find one for cheap, it is worth getting the Wii U just to play Nintendo Land.

02:09:32   It's not a reason to buy the entire console.

02:09:33   What's that?

02:09:35   It's their packing, I don't remember if it was a packing game, but it's their game that

02:09:37   basically demonstrates, here's what you can do with this wacky hardware that no one really

02:09:41   picked up on, but there are games in there that give you that kind of Wii Sports type

02:09:47   experience where I have never played a game like this in this way before.

02:09:50   It is super fun, especially for family games, very often with young children.

02:09:54   For many, many years when we had the Wii U, whenever my son would have his friend come

02:09:58   over, of all the gaming hardware we have in the house, they would choose to play one of

02:10:02   the mini games in Nintendo Land.

02:10:06   Which it was an okay mini game, but really of all the things that we have, this is what

02:10:09   you want to play that we've played for hours, just week after week, month after month, and

02:10:14   I don't even think that's the best mini-game. Nintendo Land is all mini-games, essentially.

02:10:18   And a lot of them are really fun and really interesting, and I will tell you that you

02:10:21   have never played a game, you know, never played, because it's a different hardware

02:10:25   arrangement. You have multiple screens, a TV, a handheld thing, playing in the same

02:10:29   environment with these very strange mechanics with motion controls and cameras and so many

02:10:34   good ideas in there. None of which, obviously, is a full-fledged game, they're all mini-games,

02:10:37   but totally worth it just to have that experience if you can find one cheap somewhere.

02:10:42   Eh, probably won't.

02:10:44   It's so uncool.

02:10:45   [beeping]

02:10:47   [ Silence ]