219: Million Dollar Lunch


00:00:00   Then I regrab it and go "thump thump thump thump thump thump thump."

00:00:02   Anyway, Mac speed should be higher.

00:00:04   All right, as usual we should start with follow-up.

00:00:08   And as usual we have APFS-related follow-up.

00:00:12   How do we have this every week?

00:00:13   I swear to you I'm not like intentionally trying to make this a streak.

00:00:17   It's just happening naturally.

00:00:19   Is this like the Bell Lobby like influencing us?

00:00:22   Like what is going on here?

00:00:23   Who knows, but Liberty RPF from Twitter writes,

00:00:26   "APFS doesn't support compression yet.

00:00:28   "What if on macOS you've run something like clusters

00:00:31   "to compress everything at the file system level?"

00:00:33   What do we make of that, Jon?

00:00:35   - I hadn't thought of this before.

00:00:37   So there are a couple of things about this.

00:00:38   This was a tweet, right?

00:00:40   I also most agree.

00:00:43   My recollection is that ABFS does not support compression,

00:00:46   but I would not, like, am I sure about that?

00:00:49   Maybe not.

00:00:50   Maybe like it actually does have built-in support

00:00:54   for the HFS+ compression and they just never say anything.

00:00:57   I don't know.

00:00:58   assuming it doesn't support compression, which is my recollection at this point.

00:01:02   It is true that on max, even if you never run any third-party utility,

00:01:11   a whole bunch of the files that like come with the operating system and stuff

00:01:14   are compressed on disk, right? And then HLS+ is this native compression feature that I added

00:01:20   many releases ago, and just when it gets read from the file system it gets re-inflated to its normal

00:01:25   size and it's all transparent to the rest of the operating system, it just takes up

00:01:29   less room on disk.

00:01:31   So the APFS conversion thing, iOS anyway, is like, leave all the data exactly where

00:01:35   it is and just make new pointers to it and blah blah blah, don't like moving anything

00:01:38   around.

00:01:39   I have no idea if iOS uses the HFS+ compression feature, but I know Macs do, and also on Mac

00:01:47   there are third-party utilities that can wander over the rest of your file system and compress

00:01:50   stuff or tell HFS+ basically, "Oh, this file right here, make it be compressed on disk

00:01:55   you could write your own little programs to do this, right?

00:01:58   So on a Mac, it is very likely, in fact,

00:02:02   I'm most certain that one or more files are compressed.

00:02:05   Now, if a Mac is going to have the same sort of in-place

00:02:09   conversion to ABFS that iOS devices have,

00:02:12   you have kind of a weird situation where it can't just leave

00:02:15   all the data exactly where it is,

00:02:16   because if ABFS can't decompress stuff,

00:02:18   it can't just leave that data as compressed,

00:02:20   'cause it'll be scrambled garbage after ABFS points to it

00:02:24   here's the file data and you go to read it and it's compressed garbage. AVS has to either

00:02:28   know how to decompress that on the fly just like HFS Plus, which seems to me to be the easiest

00:02:32   solution because then you don't have to worry about all these issues that I'm about to explain,

00:02:36   or you have to expand those files to their uncompressed version, which means you need

00:02:42   to find space for them, which means you actually have to copy the data someplace else and shuffle

00:02:46   things around and now it becomes suddenly a way more dangerous operation than it was before.

00:02:50   And in the worst case scenario, someone's got tons of stuff compressed with HFS+ compression,

00:02:55   and their disk is almost full, and there's literally no room on the disk to expand everything,

00:02:58   because if you were to expand everything, it would exceed the capacity of the disk.

00:03:01   So I'm hoping that I'm either just misremembering or APFS has support for HFS+ compression just

00:03:10   transparently included and it just hasn't been brought up or they told me and I forgot or

00:03:14   whatever, because that would certainly simplify things. But if that's not the case, it'll be very

00:03:18   interesting to see what happens with the Mac roll out of APFS.

00:03:24   And I wish, maybe someone in the chat room knows, I wish I knew if iOS also uses HRS+

00:03:30   compression, I would imagine it would too, because I don't see any reason it wouldn't

00:03:33   do it, or maybe battery life, I don't know.

00:03:36   The chat room says that iOS does have support.

00:03:39   Support, sure, but like, do all the OS files compress like they are?

00:03:43   Not all of them, but I don't know.

00:03:45   If you get a phone from a store and just take it out of the box, are a bunch of the files

00:03:49   on the formerly HFS+ disk compressed, if you had done this like a year ago?

00:03:54   I don't know.

00:03:55   Anyway, it will be an adventure.

00:03:56   I'm still waiting for the Mac roll-out of APFS, because converting on all our phones

00:04:02   was boring, except for the apps that broke.

00:04:04   Fair enough.

00:04:05   All right, moving on.

00:04:08   We got some very interesting feedback via David Carlton about WWDC launches, which is

00:04:14   topic that keeps on giving.

00:04:15   I love this so much.

00:04:17   He linked us, I actually love it as well, he linked us to the GDC Boss Lady blog by

00:04:23   Megan Scavio.

00:04:26   So she writes, "With regard to the Game Developers Conference, the other recognizable change

00:04:28   this year is lunch.

00:04:29   We reduced the price of conference passes by the cost of lunch.

00:04:33   That boxed lunch that you all know and love and wish you could consume five days a week

00:04:36   all year round is $40 a day," she writes.

00:04:41   "I'll give you a minute to stop choking on your Doritos.

00:04:44   "Ready?

00:04:45   Yes!

00:04:46   $40 a day for sandwich, chips, apple cookie, and water soda.

00:04:49   I could not make this stuff up even if I wanted to.

00:04:51   We decided to give the attendees a choice this year.

00:04:54   Spend as much as you'd like by buying from one of the many on-site concessions or nearby

00:04:57   food repositories or pre-order and pay for the $40 a day meal.

00:05:01   It is now your decision.

00:05:02   I trust you will make the right one."

00:05:03   And the catch here, which I didn't explain, is that GDC apparently, at the time of this

00:05:08   writing, was happening at Moscone.

00:05:10   So holy smokes, $40 a day for that disaster.

00:05:13   - Yeah, I mean, this is, the story with conferences

00:05:17   and things like this is, any kind of like exhibitor

00:05:22   of conferences or if you're gonna like set up a booth

00:05:24   at a conference, you've probably gone through

00:05:25   a lot of this crap, basically doing anything inside

00:05:28   of a big conference hall usually involves dealing

00:05:32   with ridiculous exclusive contractors and exclusive vendors

00:05:37   and possible union politics and what you think

00:05:41   these things should cost, they cost way, way,

00:05:45   way more than that.

00:05:46   So this is like, you know, food service exclusive provider

00:05:49   for Moscone provides these lunches,

00:05:52   and Apple pretty much has to pay whatever their price is

00:05:55   because they aren't allowed to bring in food

00:05:58   from anybody else into Moscone.

00:05:59   It's that kind of arrangement usually.

00:06:01   It's like, you know, if you're setting up a booth

00:06:02   for like a small trade show, and you need like a surgical,

00:06:06   you can't bring your own surgical,

00:06:07   you have to use their surgical installed

00:06:09   by one of their licensed people to install it,

00:06:11   and it's gonna cost you $400.

00:06:13   It's that kind of thing usually at these large venues.

00:06:16   So I'm not really surprised to hear this.

00:06:19   It's sad and if you ever book one of these things,

00:06:21   it probably makes you angry, but it's not surprising.

00:06:24   - Even when you're not in a conference center,

00:06:25   like at work we have food they bring in,

00:06:28   they try to bring in healthy food,

00:06:29   so you have apples and bananas and stuff.

00:06:31   And when they first started doing this,

00:06:34   I heard someone throwing around the idea

00:06:36   that each one of those apples was two bucks,

00:06:37   which doesn't seem like too much,

00:06:40   But on the other hand, you just look at the giant pile of apples, you're like, "Oh, that

00:06:43   adds up."

00:06:44   And this is in a non-conference-centered environment.

00:06:46   So in general, just getting large amounts of stuff in a place where it normally wouldn't

00:06:53   appear, whether it's apples in offices or box lunches in a convention center across

00:06:56   a lot of them, yeah.

00:06:57   All the exclusive contracts and the unions makes it really expensive.

00:07:00   And remember this $40 thing, this post was from many years ago, right?

00:07:04   It was like seven years ago?

00:07:05   Yeah.

00:07:06   So it's probably like $100 now.

00:07:08   - So if you do this math, $40 a day times five days of WWDC,

00:07:13   actually I guess it's four 'cause they don't serve,

00:07:14   do they serve lunch on Fridays?

00:07:15   - Yes they do. - Or stay late enough?

00:07:16   - Yeah, they do. - Oh, okay, so five days

00:07:18   times 5,000 attendees, which doesn't account

00:07:21   for all the Apple people, that is a million dollars

00:07:24   on these godforsaken lunches. (laughing)

00:07:27   - Yeah, that's the thing. - Holy cow.

00:07:28   - It's like when you have these kind of like special venues

00:07:31   and special deals with everybody

00:07:32   and restrictions on you doing anything else,

00:07:34   I mean, they can charge kind of whatever they want.

00:07:37   By the way, see also weddings and hospitals.

00:07:39   - Well, it's bad.

00:07:41   Alright, so I think that's it for follow-up, surprisingly.

00:07:43   This is a miracle, I don't know what to make of this.

00:07:45   - Wow.

00:07:46   - I have some alternative topics we could put in follow-up,

00:07:50   Copyright 2011, John Siracusa, but--

00:07:52   - I think you actually did pretty well

00:07:53   defending Plex on Connected.

00:07:56   - Yeah, well, yeah, that was intended for follow-up here,

00:07:59   but I actually did a guest spot on Connected

00:08:03   earlier this week, and we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:08:06   If you don't listen to Connected, our dear friend of the show Federico Vittucci slandered

00:08:10   the Plex name in not the latest episode, but the prior one, and this could not stand.

00:08:17   And as such, I was planning on a probably 15 or 20 minute follow-up section, or really

00:08:22   a follow-out, copyright 2015 or 16, Jason Snell, built upon the work of copyright 2010

00:08:29   John Sirkis.

00:08:30   Anyway, it was a derivative work.

00:08:32   I had planned on doing some follow-out with regard to Connected and their thoughts on

00:08:38   Plex, but I was asked, probably out of desperation because Mike was not in town, I was asked

00:08:44   to guest on the beginning of the latest episode, which I will put a link in the show notes,

00:08:47   like I said.

00:08:48   It's at the very beginning of the episode and I kind of talk about what makes Plex awesome

00:08:52   and why it's not nearly as hard to use as you would expect.

00:08:54   So if you're at all interested in that, I do encourage you to check it out.

00:08:59   But yeah, because of that, our follow-up in this show,

00:09:01   including follow-out, is pretty much done.

00:09:04   - I will say, since we're talking about Plex anyway--

00:09:06   - Oh, here we go, this is how we always get there.

00:09:09   - One quick thing that I don't think you guys

00:09:11   really covered enough that I wanted to point out,

00:09:13   'cause I was also a Plex skeptic for years.

00:09:18   Casey would always bug me about how great it was

00:09:20   and why don't I do this, and tell me all the great things

00:09:23   that, well, you know, if you had Plex,

00:09:24   you wouldn't have this problem right now.

00:09:26   (laughing)

00:09:27   And one of the great values to me of Plex,

00:09:30   in a world where we can stream pretty much everything

00:09:33   we want all the time, and that is when you have children,

00:09:38   and the children really want to watch a specific thing

00:09:42   at a certain time, that they do that every day.

00:09:45   And if this thing is not available for kids,

00:09:48   it's going to cause problems for the parents.

00:09:50   And there's lots of times in life to teach your kids

00:09:53   they can't always get what they want.

00:09:56   But a lot of times you don't wanna have

00:09:57   that discussion right now.

00:09:58   You just want to give the kid the TV show

00:10:01   they wanted to watch so you can go wash the dishes

00:10:03   or something.

00:10:04   And sometimes internet connections go down.

00:10:08   Sometimes iTunes freaks out and won't authorize anything.

00:10:12   Sometimes things break in the online world.

00:10:15   And it is really, really nice when that happens,

00:10:17   which is rare, but when that does happen,

00:10:20   it's really nice to have Plex running in your home

00:10:24   And everything you need to play the media you wanna play

00:10:27   is on your local network and DRM free.

00:10:30   And that means there is no reliance

00:10:32   on your Fios being out or not out.

00:10:35   There's no reliance on the Apple DRM servers

00:10:38   authorizing you to watch what you paid for or not.

00:10:41   It's just playing a file off a network share

00:10:44   and it just works.

00:10:45   And that's really, really nice when you need it.

00:10:48   - Yep, and if you have friends

00:10:50   which also have Plex servers and accounts and whatnot,

00:10:54   you can stream from each other.

00:10:56   So I have been amassing a collection of Daniel Tiger

00:11:00   and Paw Patrol and things of that nature.

00:11:02   And so these are probably beneath Adam at this point,

00:11:04   but hypothetically, if Adam wanted Paw Patrol

00:11:08   and it isn't on Netflix or iTunes is down

00:11:11   or whatever the case may be,

00:11:12   Marco can hop on Plex, tell Plex,

00:11:15   don't look at my local server, look at Casey server,

00:11:18   and he can stream that directly from me to him,

00:11:21   which is really awesome.

00:11:22   And so once you've built up a kind of quote unquote network

00:11:26   of a few friends that all have media,

00:11:29   it's actually kind of your own personal Netflix.

00:11:32   It's really phenomenal and really, really cool.

00:11:34   - We are sponsored this week by Fracture.

00:11:38   Go to fractureme.com/podcast and select ATP there

00:11:43   so they know you came from here.

00:11:44   Fracture is a photo decor company.

00:11:47   They're out to rescue your favorite images

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00:12:02   on these nice thin panes of glass,

00:12:05   and you just hang that on your wall,

00:12:07   and the photos go edge to edge.

00:12:08   There's no frame needed, even.

00:12:11   The photos are their own standalone objects

00:12:14   that go edge to edge with the print,

00:12:16   and it looks so clean and modern

00:12:19   to just have the photo across the whole expanse.

00:12:22   They make great gifts as well.

00:12:24   Mother's Day is right around the corner.

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00:12:29   of your kids for your mother

00:12:31   or for maybe their grandmother.

00:12:33   It's a great gift idea for all sorts of occasions,

00:12:35   friends, family.

00:12:37   And these things just look great around the house.

00:12:39   We have them all over our house

00:12:41   and we get compliments every time somebody comes over

00:12:44   and say, "Hey, what's that?

00:12:45   Is that a fracture if they heard of it?

00:12:46   Like, they just look fantastic, these great photo prints.

00:12:50   And they really want you to get those photos

00:12:52   out of the social media feeds that they kinda get stuck in.

00:12:55   Because if you, you know, you post a great picture

00:12:57   to Facebook or Instagram or whatever,

00:12:59   and then in eight hours it's gone.

00:13:01   You'll like never see it again,

00:13:02   'cause it's off the end of the timeline.

00:13:04   Get those best photos out, get them printed by Fracture.

00:13:07   It looks great, they look great either in your house

00:13:09   or in somebody else's as a gift.

00:13:11   Go to fractureme.com/podcast and then there's a little picker to say what show you came

00:13:17   from.

00:13:18   Make sure you pick ATP on that list so that we get credit and they know that you came

00:13:21   from here.

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00:13:25   Great photo prints directly on glass.

00:13:27   Great prices and great gifts too.

00:13:29   Fractureme.com/podcast.

00:13:30   Thank you very much to Fracture for sponsoring our show.

00:13:37   We also have some show news.

00:13:39   We do.

00:13:40   much do. This is super exciting. I'm very pumped about this. Tell us what's going

00:13:44   on Marco. All right so we are doing a live show at WWDC. So on Monday June 5th

00:13:51   in WWDC week we are doing a live show at AltConf. AltConf is this community run

00:13:58   conference that happens like across or down the street from WWDC. It's happened

00:14:03   for three or four years now at least right? It's been kind of a while.

00:14:05   - Yeah.

00:14:06   - And the way Alconf works is the conference

00:14:09   is totally community run and it's free for the most part.

00:14:13   You can pay optionally if you want to

00:14:17   to get priority in line, but otherwise it's free

00:14:21   and there's great diverse talks

00:14:24   and it's really a great event for the community.

00:14:26   Anyway, we wanted to do a live show this year

00:14:29   and they had this great thing where they invite

00:14:32   the community to come use their venue

00:14:36   and bring talks and content to AltConf.

00:14:39   We decided to take them up on that offer

00:14:40   and we contacted them this past week

00:14:42   and arranged it pretty quickly actually.

00:14:44   So we are doing a live show in AltConf

00:14:48   and it's gonna be separately ticketed,

00:14:51   mostly for the purposes of just capacity management,

00:14:55   but the tickets are just five bucks.

00:14:56   It's basically just to make sure that people

00:14:59   actually are serious when they book them

00:15:00   so we know how many people are coming,

00:15:02   so we know how big to make the room.

00:15:04   And then we're working on maybe we can donate that money

00:15:06   to something useful.

00:15:07   And then the show is gonna be Monday from five to seven p.m.

00:15:11   So the idea here is to be after the WBC

00:15:15   State of the Union Address,

00:15:16   which usually runs until four or four thirty.

00:15:18   But before anybody's dinner plans

00:15:20   or Jim Dalrymple's beard bash

00:15:23   or other things that might be happening on Monday night.

00:15:25   So five to seven p.m. live show,

00:15:28   WBC Monday, June 5th at Alt Conf.

00:15:31   go to, is it altconf.com?

00:15:33   It is altconf.com, okay, just checking.

00:15:37   And yeah, so we look forward to it.

00:15:40   It's gonna be, you know, it's not gonna be

00:15:42   like any kind of outrageous thing

00:15:43   where we have like Tim Cook on or anything.

00:15:44   I don't, I mean, we could try,

00:15:46   but I don't think we'll get him.

00:15:48   Just a hunch.

00:15:49   But I'm looking forward to it.

00:15:51   We're gonna just, you know, we're gonna basically

00:15:53   just do this in front of a live audience

00:15:54   of between 100 and 1,000 people,

00:15:57   depending on how many people respond to the room.

00:16:01   I do expect to stream it live.

00:16:03   - When you say that, you mean audio only

00:16:07   is your expectation.

00:16:08   - Yes, I don't think we have any kind of video setup.

00:16:11   I do have the audio setup to stream it live

00:16:15   if internet connectivity holds out.

00:16:17   And that's a huge if at conference,

00:16:19   so I don't want to guarantee it.

00:16:20   Because basically I will be trying to get

00:16:23   some kind of connection out of a very, very full room

00:16:26   in a venue I've never been in,

00:16:28   in a city I've never been in.

00:16:29   So it's hard to predict whether or not

00:16:32   I will be able to maintain an audio live stream,

00:16:34   but I'll do my best.

00:16:35   Otherwise, we look forward to it.

00:16:37   So yeah, if you wanna come, go book a ticket now.

00:16:40   We will put the link in the show notes.

00:16:42   And so yeah, thanks to Alt-Conf for working with us on this,

00:16:45   'cause what we wanted to really was just like,

00:16:48   we wanted to do a live show,

00:16:50   but we didn't wanna go through the massive ordeal

00:16:53   and hassle and risk of booking a whole venue ourselves.

00:16:57   It's a ton of work to do that,

00:16:59   and I highly respect the podcasts that do that.

00:17:01   We did not have that in us,

00:17:03   and we could barely get t-shirts for sale.

00:17:05   (laughs)

00:17:06   So we found a great arrangement with AltConf

00:17:09   that worked out well for all of us,

00:17:11   and we hope to see you there.

00:17:13   - Yep, it's super exciting.

00:17:15   Most of the three of us are very excited about it,

00:17:19   so please, if you are interested at all in doing this,

00:17:22   you think you will be there, please go ahead and get yourself a ticket, buy a ticket, and

00:17:27   do it now, just like the t-shirts.

00:17:29   To be clear, the live show that we're doing, like, it's a live show, you can come see us

00:17:33   live, we're gonna try to stream it, and the main thing that will probably prevent streaming

00:17:37   is the fact that if the stream craps out, Marco can't fix it because he's on stage,

00:17:41   so oh well.

00:17:42   But we're also releasing it as a regular episode.

00:17:44   This will be our regular WWDC episode.

00:17:46   Oh yeah, good point.

00:17:47   In most years, like, we just record this in Marco's hotel room or whatever, you know,

00:17:51   We're releasing this episode, so don't feel like, "Oh, I'm not going to the WFC, I'll

00:17:54   miss this one."

00:17:55   You won't miss it.

00:17:56   It will be that week's episode.

00:17:57   You just won't get to see it or hear it live.

00:17:59   That's it.

00:18:00   Excellent point.

00:18:01   So the news this week, it's been a little while since we've spoken to each other.

00:18:05   I've missed you too deeply.

00:18:06   But one thing I might be missing soon is Touch ID in the front of my phone, because there

00:18:11   have been some very interesting hardware specs and photographs that have leaked that indicate

00:18:18   the Touch ID sensor in the supposed iPhone 8 may be on the back of the phone under the

00:18:26   Apple logo.

00:18:28   And the internet is not happy about this, from what I can tell.

00:18:35   I don't really know what I make of it yet.

00:18:37   I've never really used a phone with the fingerprint sensor on the back.

00:18:42   However, pretty much anyone that I know that has used an Android phone with any regularity

00:18:47   has said that, "Eh, it's fine." In fact, some of them have even said they prefer it, even

00:18:52   having had used both. So I'm kind of whatever about this. It's not something I feel like I want,

00:19:00   but I think I can roll with it just fine. You know, I feel the same way about this as I did

00:19:05   about the lock button moving from the top to the right-hand side of the phone.

00:19:09   Not really something I want. I'm sure I'll get over it, and that's exactly how it turned out.

00:19:14   not really something I wanted, I got over it pretty quick.

00:19:17   So Marco, how do you feel about this?

00:19:19   - I'm kind of the same way.

00:19:20   I've never used a phone with it on the back,

00:19:22   and I think I'd get used to it, it would be fine,

00:19:25   but I think on the front would be better.

00:19:27   And I think it's more interesting

00:19:29   that we don't seem to have a clear picture yet,

00:19:32   and that maybe Apple doesn't seem

00:19:34   to have a clear picture yet.

00:19:35   That is more interesting,

00:19:36   'cause it's getting pretty late in the year

00:19:38   for these kind of decisions to not be made yet.

00:19:41   - I got a point of clarification

00:19:43   that we needed on this because in the beginning,

00:19:45   Casey said the Touch ID sensor is on the back

00:19:48   under the Apple logo, and that actually

00:19:50   can be interpreted in multiple ways,

00:19:52   one of which is a way that has been suggested.

00:19:54   So what he was referring to is that you'll look at the link

00:19:58   we'll put in the show notes, the 9to5Mac or whatever,

00:20:00   that shows a picture of the supposed part leak.

00:20:02   So if you look at the back of an iPhone,

00:20:04   there's an Apple logo on the back,

00:20:05   but the Apple logo is towards the top of the phone, right?

00:20:08   When he says under the Apple logo,

00:20:10   he means go down about an inch from that and pretty much dead center in the back of the

00:20:15   phone below the Apple logo, like lower down on the phone than the Apple logo, there's

00:20:20   a circular opening and that's where Touch ID would be.

00:20:22   A lot of people suggested, "Hey, if you're going to put something on the back of the

00:20:25   phone, why don't you make the Apple logo also the Touch ID sensor?"

00:20:30   Obviously the problems there are that it's not really shaped like a circle and it might

00:20:34   be hard to get a sensor that kind of fills that area and still looks nice and blah, blah,

00:20:38   blah.

00:20:39   position wrong, maybe you actually do want it more towards the center instead of high

00:20:42   up and so it's all sorts of aesthetic and functional decisions that may make them not

00:20:46   want to put the Touch ID sensor literally in the Apple logo. But the parts leaks show

00:20:51   there's a cutout for the Apple logo and then an inch lower there's a circular cutout for

00:20:55   the Touch ID sensor.

00:20:56   So what are your thoughts on this, Jon?

00:20:58   Well, I mean, these parts leaks, we're getting into parts leak season and I have a hard time

00:21:08   dismissing these as complete fakes or ridiculous things because they're starting to look

00:21:13   Starting to look pretty real to me at the very least a real thing that was made by somebody for some purpose probably Apple

00:21:21   Some people in the chat room are saying there's no way Apple will do this

00:21:27   They'll never do this because it's not an Apple thing to do

00:21:29   I totally disagree with that Apple would 100% do this whether they are going to do it or not

00:21:34   I guess you know as every week advances these things these rumors be the cement or they will just go away

00:21:40   We won't see it anymore

00:21:41   But remember this is the phone we're talking about that's supposed to get rid of the chin and forehead

00:21:45   More or less and make the screen go from top to bottom edge to edge much more so than it does now

00:21:50   Leaving no room for even the completely immobile touch ID button on the iPhone 7 there won't even be room for a non moving button

00:21:57   I'll just be screen everywhere and so you know the earlier rumors were like oh, it'll be screen everywhere

00:22:02   and in fact the home button and touch ID will also be in the screen. You can kind of see how they could put the home button

00:22:09   in the screen because we already have a home button that doesn't move, right?

00:22:11   And there's a little indentation for it, which is better than being no indentation.

00:22:15   And that's another sort of ergonomic issue of like, "How do I find the home button if there's no little indentation for my thumb to go in?"

00:22:19   I just feel for the middle of the phone or maybe the whole bottom of the phone is like a home button and I just

00:22:24   force press somewhere near the bottom and it takes me home, whatever. But the touch ID sensor,

00:22:30   The the rumors were supposed to like oh it turned out to be harder than they thought

00:22:34   To get a touch ID sensor inside a screen because the screen has lights that come out of it in the touch ID sensor

00:22:40   You know, it's like sensor and screen are not the same things

00:22:42   How do they combine them in a way that the touch ID sensor works and all these recent part leaks are part of the narrative?

00:22:48   They're like, oh they couldn't get that to work this year. So instead they're putting it on the back

00:22:52   and

00:22:54   You know people have Android phones with touch ID sensors on the back and they're saying like it's fine

00:22:58   It's whatever like obviously if you put your phone down on the table now, you can't unlock it

00:23:02   Unless you put it face down, but then when you unlock it, it's no good because you can't see the screen anyway, right?

00:23:06   You know, so that's the one

00:23:08   Disadvantage that people talk about with it being on the back. But otherwise like ergonomically speaking

00:23:13   It's probably better easier to hit the touch ID on the back than it is to hit touch ID

00:23:20   That's the very very edge of your phone

00:23:22   You know what?

00:23:23   I mean, like it's like if you had to pick where is the best place to put a fingerprint sensor on on?

00:23:28   on a featureless rectangle, you wouldn't say,

00:23:30   "Let me put it on the very, very bottom edge,"

00:23:32   'cause you kinda gotta shimmy your hand down

00:23:34   and you kinda pinch it from the edge.

00:23:36   You could certainly get a more secure grip

00:23:38   if the touch of the sensor were somewhere in the middle.

00:23:41   My main reservation about the thing being in the middle

00:23:46   is since I'm someone who's had a case

00:23:49   on all of my iOS devices,

00:23:50   putting something that you can't put a case over on the back

00:23:56   is somewhat of a problem/disappointment for me.

00:24:01   I am not one of those people that has ever had a case

00:24:04   that has like a circle cut out,

00:24:05   so you can see the Apple logo.

00:24:06   I found those cases absurd and just comical and sad.

00:24:10   I don't need a cut out to show the world of my Apple logo.

00:24:14   And in fact, if you get an Apple case,

00:24:15   they have their own Apple logo on the case

00:24:17   as a little indentation.

00:24:18   People will still know it's an iPhone.

00:24:19   It'll be fine, I swear.

00:24:21   But not just for those sort of aesthetic

00:24:24   like image reasons I don't like the cutout but mainly I don't like the cutout because

00:24:30   the cutout that will inevitably have to be there on any case for an Apple iPhone with

00:24:36   the touch ID sensor on the back is that that basically becomes a lint collecting belly

00:24:41   button for your phone.

00:24:42   Like it's another place for grime and crap to get inside there because you're going to

00:24:47   be sticking your grimy fingers in there constantly to unlock your phone and any grime that's

00:24:51   on there is just gonna get wedged into this little thing. It will literally be a grimy,

00:24:55   linty belly button for your phone. That's not good. It doesn't look good. It doesn't feel good.

00:25:00   It makes the Touch ID sensor farther away from you because now you gotta dig your finger into

00:25:03   the little belly button to find the Touch ID sensor. The thicker your case is, the worse

00:25:07   that's gonna be. Think of battery cases. How the hell are you gonna get a battery case? It's gonna

00:25:11   be a super-duper innie belly button where you gotta poke your finger up there and it's gonna be

00:25:16   a mess. If you don't use cases on your phone, whatever, then it's no big deal, right? These

00:25:21   these are all non-issues, but I do use cases,

00:25:23   and I don't want to stick my finger

00:25:25   into a little hole in the case,

00:25:26   and fiddle around on a linty belly button.

00:25:29   So that's mostly making me either,

00:25:31   A, hope this is not true, or B, hope that by the time,

00:25:35   'cause I have a 7, I'm not gonna get this phone,

00:25:36   I'm gonna wait another year and get the one after that.

00:25:38   Hopefully, by the next phone,

00:25:40   they will have started out whatever issues

00:25:42   with Touch ID on the front,

00:25:43   and I don't want to worry about this.

00:25:46   - I think having it on the back is worse enough

00:25:49   than having it on the front,

00:25:50   that if we were forced to,

00:25:53   if there was no way to keep it on the front

00:25:55   while having the screen go edge to edge,

00:25:57   like if there was no way to put it under the screen,

00:25:59   I would rather just still have the chin.

00:26:01   Like, you know, make the bezel smaller.

00:26:03   You don't need to make the screen two to one.

00:26:06   You can keep it being 16 by nine

00:26:07   and not do like the Samsung 18 by nine or two to one thing

00:26:11   'cause no one really needs it to be taller, necessarily.

00:26:14   Just keep the chin.

00:26:18   Like, I don't think we need,

00:26:19   No one's really asking to have that go away

00:26:23   if the cost is gonna be losing Touch ID to the back.

00:26:27   - Well, Johnny, I like symmetry.

00:26:28   I mean, I know you've got a chin on the iMac

00:26:30   and no forehead, right?

00:26:31   But on the phone, though,

00:26:32   I feel like that silhouette is so iconic,

00:26:34   you know, of the, like, even, like,

00:26:35   Apple's little outline graphics that they give you

00:26:38   for iPhone that you're not allowed to use in your app

00:26:39   or they won't let it in the App Store.

00:26:41   That it's basically a rounded rectangle

00:26:42   with a little rectangle exactly dead center in the middle,

00:26:44   and that's basically, you know, hieroglyphics for iPhone

00:26:48   or for smartphone at this point,

00:26:50   for Apple to come out with an iPhone

00:26:53   with asymmetrical margins, like a chin,

00:26:56   but very little forehead,

00:26:57   because they're trying to pull on the edges.

00:26:59   Like you can pull on the sides a little bit

00:27:01   and shave a few millimeters, right?

00:27:02   Oh, edge to edge screen,

00:27:03   especially if they do like a rounded screen on the edges,

00:27:05   like so many of the past Android phones.

00:27:08   - Oh, it's a lot.

00:27:09   Like when you see them side by side

00:27:11   in people's review videos,

00:27:12   like the iPhone design, the side bezels really stick out

00:27:17   compared to these newer bezel-less ones like the S8.

00:27:21   - Yeah, but it's only a few millimeters here.

00:27:22   It's not like you're getting back a full inch

00:27:25   if you took off the chin and forehead.

00:27:26   - But that matters.

00:27:27   I'm saying if you keep most of the chin,

00:27:31   you don't even need to keep the whole chin,

00:27:33   just keep enough of it for a Touch ID sensor to be there.

00:27:36   - There's like two millimeters on top and bottom

00:27:38   of the Touch ID sensor.

00:27:39   Go look at your phone right now.

00:27:40   There's not a lot of room above and below.

00:27:42   - I'm holding it right now.

00:27:43   There is some room, about as much room as the side bezels,

00:27:46   And also, does it need to be that big?

00:27:49   We don't know.

00:27:49   Maybe they can get away with a smaller one.

00:27:51   - I think it needs to be that big.

00:27:53   - Well, but regardless, like I'm saying,

00:27:55   you know, this is all about trade-offs, right?

00:27:57   This has been like a theme of our show,

00:27:59   is like is Apple making the right trade-offs

00:28:00   in its physical designs of things?

00:28:02   And I think the trade-off here is like,

00:28:06   Touch ID on the back is not that great.

00:28:09   And if you keep it on the front,

00:28:11   basically like, you know, it solves a lot of problems.

00:28:13   If you can't get it under the screen,

00:28:15   which, I mean, I don't know a lot about screen technology,

00:28:18   but getting it under a screen without having it be

00:28:20   like a visible different spot on the screen

00:28:23   when the screen's showing an image, sounds impossible.

00:28:25   That sounds really, really hard.

00:28:27   - Yeah, it's not impossible.

00:28:29   I feel like, you know, I feel like the rumor

00:28:32   wouldn't have been around so long

00:28:33   if it was literally impossible.

00:28:34   I think the tech is sorta kinda there

00:28:36   to sorta kinda pull this off to some degree.

00:28:39   - But you think-- - Otherwise,

00:28:40   it would never be discussed.

00:28:41   - But you think that like, that there's a way

00:28:43   to put some kind of optical readings or scanning sensor

00:28:48   in a screen that also is showing pixels

00:28:51   such that if you showed a solid color rectangle

00:28:55   on the screen that you wouldn't see the outline of that?

00:28:58   - Touch ID isn't optical, is it?

00:29:00   - I don't know.

00:29:01   - Oh, I don't know.

00:29:02   If I knew how Touch ID worked,

00:29:03   I could have a more informed opinion about this,

00:29:05   but I don't.

00:29:06   But anyway, the rumor's been around so long

00:29:10   And I haven't seen a single story that say,

00:29:12   "You dummy, that's impossible.

00:29:15   "Stop talking about this."

00:29:16   Which leads me to believe that it is possible.

00:29:18   It's just a question of how much worse is the sensor?

00:29:20   How less clear an image

00:29:24   or a sense of your fingerprints does it get?

00:29:26   So I feel like it's possible,

00:29:32   if not now, then eventually,

00:29:33   but if not this year, then whatever.

00:29:36   But getting back to the idea of leaving the chin

00:29:38   getting rid of the forehead, like you know, you can pull in the margins all you want.

00:29:42   Bottom line is, if the margin above is not the width of the margin below, you've got

00:29:46   an asymmetrical phone.

00:29:47   That's weird to me.

00:29:48   Now they did make the Fat Nano, so never say never, right?

00:29:50   Apple has been known to make some pretty awkward looking iOS.

00:29:54   That wasn't iOS device.

00:29:55   Awkward looking handheld battery powered devices.

00:29:58   So who knows what they'll do.

00:30:01   But I personally think that would be an ugly iPhone.

00:30:04   It would be the equivalent of the Fat Nano, even more so than the thing on the back.

00:30:08   And so I think it is more likely that the front will be nice and symmetrical and the

00:30:13   Touch ID sensor will be on the back if they really couldn't get it any other way.

00:30:16   Or like the final thing is, it's got top and bottom margins that are both equal, they're

00:30:20   both slightly smaller than they were before, they pulled in the sides a little bit, and

00:30:24   you know, there's your phone.

00:30:25   People would still like that, it would be a new form factor, it's not like the iPhone

00:30:28   7 form factor again, it is a new phone especially that has that steel shiny chrome edge thing

00:30:34   sort of reminiscent of the first iPhone and the stainless steel back and you know all

00:30:39   the other thing it would be a new form factor people would accept it as a new phone it just

00:30:42   wouldn't be like oh I thought this one was only gonna have screen on the front but instead

00:30:46   it's still got a chin and a forehead but oh well.

00:30:49   Yeah I agree I certainly would not complain if Touch ID was pretty much exactly the way

00:30:55   it was it's just the only difference is that the bezels were slightly smaller but we'll

00:31:00   We'll see.

00:31:01   I'm pretty much nonplussed by this regardless.

00:31:04   Whatever ends up happening happens and that's fine.

00:31:06   Oh, by the way, I think this is a good time to revisit while we're on the topic of the

00:31:12   buttons on our phones and everything, to take another pass at each of us saying how we feel

00:31:19   about the nonmoving iPhone 7 home button after using it for what, a year now or whatever

00:31:24   it's been.

00:31:25   Mm-hmm.

00:31:26   Because I had occasion to use my wife's phone recently and she's got a 6s and that button

00:31:30   moves and I start off as like, "Oh, the buttons, it's weird. You get used to it. It's not quite

00:31:36   the same or whatever." And now I'm at the point where when I use an iOS device where

00:31:40   the button actually moves, it feels like junk and I can't handle it and I am like fully

00:31:44   converted. I am fully converted to the non-moving button, which does not feel like the old button.

00:31:50   It's not like, "Oh, now it has fooled me." It doesn't. But what I'm saying is the way

00:31:53   it feels now is the way I expect my phone to feel. The little wiggly shake, even how

00:31:57   it works when my phone is sitting on a tabletop like all those little haptic movements and

00:32:03   whatever my hands have just accepted that that's how your phone feels and when I use

00:32:07   phones that don't feel that way and when a thing like presses in on them it feels junky

00:32:11   and crappy to me so I am a total convert to this which makes me gives me some hope that

00:32:16   I will eventually be a convert to and you know an in-screen completely smooth no border

00:32:22   thing I could be wrong it could be that I need the little circle to deal with my thumb

00:32:25   right, no matter where it is,

00:32:26   which is another question by the way,

00:32:27   if they put Touch ID in the back,

00:32:28   is it a little crater on the back

00:32:29   or is it totally featureless?

00:32:31   And if it is a crater, that's kind of weird

00:32:32   'cause you'd have the Apple logo

00:32:33   and then a little zit crater belly button blow it.

00:32:36   Anyway, I'm here to say that I feel like I have,

00:32:41   unbeknownst to me, completely converted

00:32:44   to not just tolerating the non-moving home button,

00:32:46   but to saying I like the non-moving home button

00:32:49   better than all of the moving home buttons I've ever used.

00:32:52   - I could not possibly agree with you more.

00:32:54   The only time I dislike the non-moving home button, the static home button, is when I

00:33:00   try to unlock my phone when it's resting on a table, because whatever magic the haptic,

00:33:05   taptic, whatever feedback does in order to make you feel like you've clicked a button,

00:33:09   it's either completely muted to the point of, figuratively speaking, silence, or just

00:33:15   very, very, very soft and almost muted. And that annoys me, but in hand, I have no problem with it.

00:33:24   and I believe I'm on the softest setting.

00:33:26   I'm gonna have to come back to it

00:33:28   'cause I don't remember offhand,

00:33:29   but I think I'm on the softest feedback setting too.

00:33:33   - Yeah, like I mentioned the table thing,

00:33:34   it may be because I have a case,

00:33:35   like it does feel different when it's on the table,

00:33:38   but I have now come to like that feeling also better

00:33:41   than pressing like the home button on my wife's 6S

00:33:44   that's also sitting on the table.

00:33:45   It is totally weird and it is different

00:33:46   than when it's in your hand,

00:33:48   but I like it better because it's just what I'm used to,

00:33:50   right, and when I press it and it moves in,

00:33:52   it feels like I'm breaking the phone

00:33:53   and opening up this weird gap and like,

00:33:56   it feels so clunky or whatever.

00:33:58   And I have been in a situation,

00:34:00   and maybe it is the case that it makes a difference

00:34:02   that like gives it that extra cushion or margin

00:34:04   for the haptics to do something,

00:34:06   like where you press it and like,

00:34:08   imagine if you pressed it

00:34:09   and the haptics didn't go off at all, right?

00:34:11   That would feel broken on the seven, right?

00:34:14   And so sometimes I feel like

00:34:15   if you're on a very flat table,

00:34:18   a very hard flat table with no case and you try to do it,

00:34:20   maybe it's somehow the haptics have no,

00:34:22   had nothing to move or vibrate,

00:34:24   and that feels a little bit more broken

00:34:26   than it does with the case,

00:34:27   so it could be the case it's helping me

00:34:28   like my home button more, but either way,

00:34:31   I'm willing to, you know, I like it better

00:34:35   even in that scenario.

00:34:36   - So do you, or what setting are you on

00:34:38   in terms of the--

00:34:39   - I'm just gonna go look that up.

00:34:40   Where is that in general?

00:34:41   - It's in general, it's home button.

00:34:43   - Everything's general.

00:34:44   - That's why it's aptly named.

00:34:46   It should just be called settings.

00:34:47   You go to settings and you go to settings.

00:34:49   (laughing)

00:34:50   No, I'm with you guys.

00:34:51   I totally agree.

00:34:52   I, the very first probably three or four days, I hated it.

00:34:57   I thought this is a huge step backwards.

00:34:58   I said as much here.

00:34:59   And somehow between now and then,

00:35:02   I've turned into not only liking it, but like Jon,

00:35:06   liking it more than the old buttons.

00:35:08   And the old buttons now feel weird to me.

00:35:10   That has not happened with Force Touch track pads

00:35:13   or the new keyboards on the MacBooks,

00:35:15   but that has definitely happened

00:35:17   with the Force Touch home button on the phones.

00:35:20   And I also would go a little bit further and say,

00:35:23   one of the great things about the iPhone 7

00:35:25   is that new Taptic Engine second generation

00:35:28   that has enabled,

00:35:30   because it's like a much more precise Taptic Engine

00:35:32   that can do a lot more stuff

00:35:33   and has like a whole sequencer for the things it does.

00:35:37   And so that has enabled all the little tiny

00:35:41   haptic feedback things throughout the interface.

00:35:43   And now that I am accustomed to that

00:35:47   in so many system standard apps

00:35:48   that use standard controls and standard haptics

00:35:51   and everything, when I go back, when I use like an iPad

00:35:54   that doesn't have the Taptic Engine,

00:35:57   and nothing gives me those little taps with everything,

00:35:59   it feels like something's broken.

00:36:00   It feels like, what's wrong?

00:36:02   Is this some kind of primitive piece of glass?

00:36:05   Like, it makes a huge difference.

00:36:06   So I also am a very big fan of haptics,

00:36:09   and especially the new Taptic Engine.

00:36:12   I look forward to seeing them added to more apps,

00:36:15   including probably my own once I get around to it.

00:36:18   Speaking of haptic feedback and things that feel broken, Marko, this is my brief complaint

00:36:22   about Overcast things.

00:36:23   I have really long lists, really long playlists, and when I try to drag something from way,

00:36:26   way down at the bottom to way, way up at the top, the maximum scroll speed as the little

00:36:30   haptics fire off is way too slow, and I just sit there holding it and going "dum, dum,

00:36:34   dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum."

00:36:36   And then, of course, Overcast refreshes the list and it yanks the thing that I was holding

00:36:40   in my hand, out of my hand, and drops it into the list wherever it was, and then I regrab

00:36:43   it and go "dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum."

00:36:46   Anyway, max speed should be higher.

00:36:47   - Alright, the second thing is my fault.

00:36:49   The first thing is, this is just the standard behavior

00:36:53   of UITableView.

00:36:54   - I know, but I believe in you.

00:36:56   I believe you can change the default behavior

00:36:58   and make it go faster.

00:37:00   - Given what you've done--

00:37:01   - If I have to do anything else to UITableView,

00:37:03   I'm just gonna move to UICollectionView.

00:37:06   Some people speculate that maybe CollectionViews

00:37:07   will replace TableViews.

00:37:08   - Yeah, I saw that article that TableView is for suckers.

00:37:11   It's all CollectionView now.

00:37:13   - Well, there's a bunch of things that TableViews

00:37:15   still do the collection views don't,

00:37:17   or that you'd have to write it yourself,

00:37:19   but I think I've probably crossed the threshold

00:37:21   after which, like, I've done so much work

00:37:24   to hack table views that maybe doing it

00:37:27   in a collection view would have been less work after all.

00:37:29   So, probably next time I redesign this interface,

00:37:32   if that ever happens, I'm not looking forward to that,

00:37:34   but if that ever happens, I will probably do

00:37:36   collection view instead.

00:37:36   - Yeah, go for a higher max scroll speed.

00:37:38   It can be ratchet up, it can be like slower than beginning,

00:37:40   and then you're holding it, and then it goes faster,

00:37:41   and you know, like, the same way that flick scrolling

00:37:43   kind of does where you can get it up to speed

00:37:47   because really long lists, like there's just no recourse.

00:37:49   It's just--

00:37:50   - Well, there is a shortcut.

00:37:52   If you start playing an item near the top

00:37:55   and on the items near the bottom

00:37:57   that you're trying to move all the way up,

00:37:58   play next, play next, play next, play next.

00:38:00   That'll move them all immediately.

00:38:01   - Yeah.

00:38:02   All right, that was just an aside.

00:38:04   - It's funny you bring up the taptic, haptic,

00:38:07   whatever feedback because as an aside,

00:38:10   the other day I had a few minutes to kill at work

00:38:13   And the app that I work on, we have a scenario where there's a bunch of cards across the

00:38:20   bottom of the screen, and you can slide the cards left and right, and some will come from

00:38:25   off-screen onto screen and then go back off-screen again.

00:38:28   And this is the perfect moment to use that feedback and that tap, tap, tap as you're

00:38:35   scrolling through the cards and they're coming on and off-screen.

00:38:38   And I tried to get it to work just right.

00:38:40   And I couldn't get the math right such that when the card was at the midway point off

00:38:45   screen it would fire at the exact right moment.

00:38:47   It was very wonky.

00:38:48   It was probably my fault.

00:38:49   But I hope to at some point go back to finish that up because it really does work phenomenally

00:38:56   well when you get it right, but getting it right is kind of tough.

00:38:59   So yeah, I am in full support of third-party app developers putting that everywhere they

00:39:04   can in their apps because it's super cool.

00:39:06   The only bad thing about haptics right now

00:39:09   is that we really don't have a lot of control over them.

00:39:12   Like the options that we have are really coarse

00:39:15   and from what I understand, the way it's implemented

00:39:18   is basically a sound synthesizer.

00:39:20   You know, treating the tapping engine

00:39:21   like a big low frequency speaker.

00:39:23   And so apps in theory could have much more creativity

00:39:28   and options over the feeling and even possibly the direction

00:39:33   if that's a thing, you know, like side by side directions

00:39:36   of the haptics, that's not yet exposed in the API,

00:39:40   but maybe in iOS 11 or the future, maybe they will,

00:39:42   because I would love to do some custom stuff there

00:39:46   that just isn't possible right now.

00:39:49   - Yeah, I completely agree with you.

00:39:51   All right, anything else on these iPhone 8 rumors?

00:39:53   - I think at this point, there's so many crazy rumors,

00:39:56   we know so little, it's hard to comment intelligently

00:39:59   on much of it.

00:40:01   - Well, has that ever stopped us before?

00:40:03   - And by the way, the 9to5Mac article

00:40:05   that we're gonna link that has like the parts leak thing.

00:40:08   The parts leak was like a drawing,

00:40:09   which is always the best part,

00:40:11   like measurements on them and stuff like that.

00:40:12   It's good.

00:40:13   I actually took a screenshot of that thing

00:40:14   because those are so easy to verify.

00:40:16   Like they're down to the thousands of a millimeter.

00:40:19   We can verify those when the real phone comes out.

00:40:20   If it's exactly those dimensions

00:40:22   down to the thousands of the millimeter,

00:40:23   that was probably a legit leak.

00:40:24   If they're not, then that was just totally made up stuff.

00:40:26   But anyway, the 95 Mac article has a picture of like,

00:40:29   "Oh, here's a part.

00:40:30   "Looks just like that's a schematic."

00:40:31   It's just a rendering of the schematic.

00:40:33   Like the schematic is this supposed leak,

00:40:34   not this thing that looks like metal and the thing.

00:40:37   So don't be fooled by thinking someone found a metal thing

00:40:40   and took a fuzzy picture of it, it's just a rendering.

00:40:43   - Also real-time follow-up, the Touch ID hardware

00:40:45   as it exists today is capacitive, which I did not realize.

00:40:48   I thought it was optical.

00:40:50   - Yeah, so I think it's just like a really,

00:40:52   really high density capacitive layer,

00:40:55   like higher precision than the touch sensor

00:41:00   on the whole multi-touch screen, I assume, right?

00:41:03   - Yeah, I mean, the whole thing of like the capacitive stuff

00:41:06   the capacitive layering, there's two aspects.

00:41:08   There's one is the layering thing where you can make screens

00:41:11   out of a series of layers.

00:41:12   And one layer is the part that does the capacitive sensor.

00:41:14   You know, the layer is the part that has the, you know,

00:41:18   the color elements and the light up bits and, you know,

00:41:20   especially if it's an OLED screen,

00:41:21   but isn't this the new iPhone supposed to be all OLED

00:41:23   and everything.

00:41:24   So then you reduce the number of layers

00:41:26   because you don't have a light emitting layer

00:41:28   and a filter layer.

00:41:28   The little pixels themselves emit light,

00:41:31   But either way, you have to have a bunch of things

00:41:33   that emit light and then in between the light emitting things

00:41:37   you need the sensing things.

00:41:38   And the light emitting things don't have to fill

00:41:40   the whole area because there's light bloom and everything.

00:41:42   So the actual light emitting areas can actually be very small

00:41:44   and have mostly empty space between them.

00:41:46   It's just a question of trying to like

00:41:47   either weave that together or layer it over each other

00:41:50   such that the capacitive thing has this fine mesh

00:41:55   that's put over the light up things

00:41:56   but you don't notice the mesh because it's super fine.

00:41:58   Or you put it below the light up things like,

00:42:00   again, I'm just making up random words for tech here,

00:42:02   but it seems to me that it should be possible

00:42:06   to make a layer cake that works in some way.

00:42:09   The only question is how much worse does it work

00:42:12   than the existing Touch ID, which still has,

00:42:15   whatever, this is a layer of sapphire or glass

00:42:17   over the capacitive sensor, right?

00:42:19   So there's still some distance,

00:42:21   just no light being emitted from it.

00:42:23   And especially if they just darken that area of the screen

00:42:25   when you hold your finger on it

00:42:26   when it's expecting Touch ID or whatever,

00:42:28   There are ways around a lot of the limitations

00:42:30   that make me think it is feasible,

00:42:33   if not this year, then surely in a few years.

00:42:36   - We are sponsored this week by Eero.

00:42:39   Go to eero.com, that's E-E-R-O.com, to learn more.

00:42:43   Now look, we know how WiFi usually works.

00:42:45   You buy a router with a whole bunch of giant antennas on it

00:42:49   thinking you will finally cover your entire house

00:42:52   and you'll finally have coverage

00:42:53   in those two or three back rooms

00:42:55   where you never had coverage before.

00:42:57   And in practice you get that big router home

00:42:59   and every time it says it's gonna have the best range

00:43:01   and it doesn't cover those rooms.

00:43:03   Wi-Fi has been broken for so long

00:43:05   because we rely on single routers.

00:43:07   Eero has come out to change that.

00:43:09   Eero is a system where you plug in one of these routers

00:43:13   as your main one, but then you buy more than one.

00:43:15   You can buy a two-pack, a three-pack,

00:43:17   whatever amount you need.

00:43:18   They cover about 1,000 square feet each.

00:43:20   So the typical American home,

00:43:21   you might have two or three of them.

00:43:23   And the app that it comes with helps you set them up

00:43:25   in a really effective way

00:43:27   and it just blankets the entire house

00:43:29   in fast, reliable WiFi,

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00:43:35   And again, as I mentioned, the app is super easy to use,

00:43:37   tons of great features, and they're updating it all the time

00:43:40   and the performance you get is way better

00:43:42   than you get out of a traditional repeater

00:43:45   or range extender setup,

00:43:46   because they actually create a backhaul mesh network

00:43:49   separately from the main network

00:43:51   to communicate with each other

00:43:52   and to form that huge mesh of WiFi coverage in your home.

00:43:56   I highly suggest you check out Eero,

00:43:57   and don't just take my word for it.

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00:44:02   and you will see for yourself, this is a solid product

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00:44:35   Go to eero.com, that's E-E-R-O.com to learn more.

00:44:39   Highly recommend it.

00:44:40   Thank you very much to Eero for sponsoring our show.

00:44:43   (upbeat music)

00:44:46   - So there's been a lot of motion

00:44:48   in this thing called Overcast.

00:44:53   I don't know if any of you are familiar with

00:44:55   with this, but apparently the developer of Overcast

00:44:58   has been very busy and getting work done,

00:45:00   and has tweeted, the Overcast account has tweeted,

00:45:05   found a fix for M4A chapters,

00:45:06   they'll return in the next version.

00:45:07   MP3 chapters continue to work great,

00:45:09   they'll be easier to create soon.

00:45:11   So there's a fair bit to unpack here,

00:45:15   but let's start with M4A, what'd you do Marco?

00:45:17   - So last episode I described the problem

00:45:19   that I was facing where basically

00:45:21   the Apple low-level parser would only recognize

00:45:25   chapters in MP3 and M4A files if they were named with .mp3 and .m4a extensions. And whenever

00:45:33   CAS downloads a file, it doesn't know the type yet until it starts downloading it, at

00:45:38   which point I'm already saving it to a file and would rather not move it for streaming

00:45:41   reasons in any way. And so the hack I was doing before was that upon playback, I would

00:45:48   temporarily create two symlinks to the unextensioned file, one of them with .mp3, one of them with

00:45:54   inside M4A, have Apple read those for the metadata parser

00:45:57   and then take the metadata from there.

00:45:59   I had mentioned that that was no longer working

00:46:04   with stability on APFS in 10.3.

00:46:07   Sometimes I would get crashes around

00:46:09   those similar creations or deletions.

00:46:11   And so to avoid these crashes,

00:46:13   I switched to my own metadata parser,

00:46:17   which only supported MP3, and said,

00:46:19   well, I'll figure out some other solution for M4A later.

00:46:21   I have to fix these crashes now.

00:46:23   And the solution I came to was just name all the files

00:46:26   .m4a and, (laughs)

00:46:30   'cause I have my own parser now for MP3 chapters,

00:46:34   so and my parser is as smart as I want it to be.

00:46:38   And I decided to build in the smarts that say,

00:46:39   who cares what the file is named?

00:46:42   Just parse and look at these first bytes

00:46:44   and you can tell what format it is anyway.

00:46:45   So my parser is now responsible for MP3 streaming

00:46:51   and I use apples again for M4As on the files,

00:46:56   all of which are now named .m4a.

00:46:59   - That's both extremely clever

00:47:01   and completely bananas all at the same time.

00:47:03   - The perfect incarnation of file name extensions,

00:47:05   highlighting the fact that the name of the file

00:47:07   has no bearing whatsoever on the format

00:47:09   of the data it contains, and it's an absurd system,

00:47:11   and Marco is like, it's like a satire

00:47:14   of file name extensions, like, you know what,

00:47:15   I'm just naming every file a .m4a

00:47:17   'cause that crap is meaningless, except to this stupid API

00:47:20   It's just stupid to know what the hell kind of file

00:47:22   it's being fed and doesn't let me specify it

00:47:24   and just figures it out by parsing the file name.

00:47:26   - Especially like almost all formats,

00:47:29   almost all modern file formats, even stuff as old as MP3,

00:47:32   you can usually tell what format it is

00:47:35   by looking at maybe the first 12 bytes of the file at most.

00:47:39   Some files you could tell with even less.

00:47:41   - That's what the file command does.

00:47:42   - Right, like it's really easy to detect it.

00:47:45   Like an M4A always looks the same

00:47:47   and it's super easy to see it.

00:47:49   And MP3s can look two different ways up front,

00:47:53   but they're both pretty easy to parse and detect.

00:47:56   Like I wrote code to do it,

00:47:57   and I'm not a super crazy file engineer.

00:48:01   Like I just looked up the specs for these formats,

00:48:03   and oh, well this format has these bytes up front,

00:48:05   and this one has these, done.

00:48:06   Like it isn't hard.

00:48:08   And you know, JPEG and ping, those can also,

00:48:10   those are like eight bytes at the beginning too.

00:48:12   It's super easy.

00:48:13   - Sometimes they begin with the letters J-P-E-G or G-I-F,

00:48:17   like literal ASCII text.

00:48:18   - It's J-F-I-F, but anyway, yeah.

00:48:19   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

00:48:21   J-FIF, the Joint Something International Photo.

00:48:26   - I think it's Interchange Format.

00:48:29   - It doesn't really matter.

00:48:30   All right, so also in this tweet,

00:48:32   you had said, "MP3 chapters will be easier to create soon.

00:48:37   Tell me more."

00:48:40   - Ask again later.

00:48:41   Look, you all know I'm making forecasts.

00:48:45   The only question is when it comes out.

00:48:47   So when's it coming out?

00:48:48   - I don't know, probably soon.

00:48:50   - Oh yeah?

00:48:51   - I'm trying to, I'm putting out some overcast fires first,

00:48:53   but yeah, probably soon.

00:48:54   - It's been a long time coming.

00:48:55   I think it's been more than a year since this,

00:48:58   more than a year since you were willing to talk

00:49:00   about this program on the podcast in public,

00:49:02   and who knows how long before then.

00:49:04   This has been a heck of a gestation for this program.

00:49:07   This program that people have already been using

00:49:10   to do it for its intended purpose for a long time,

00:49:12   and you just haven't gotten around to the point

00:49:14   where you polished it up for release, right?

00:49:17   There are a few little things I wanna work out,

00:49:18   but they're like minor UI issues for the most part.

00:49:21   It should be coming soon.

00:49:24   - And for those who don't know,

00:49:26   forecast is a thing that's been charitably in private alpha

00:49:31   that Marco wrote in order to break a podcast into chapters

00:49:36   and do so easily and quickly.

00:49:38   - And people in the chat are asking about pricing.

00:49:40   The honest answer is that I still haven't quite decided

00:49:45   for sure, but I'm leaning towards just making it free,

00:49:48   but not open source.

00:49:50   And there's lots of reasons for this.

00:49:52   Maybe I'll talk about it once I release it,

00:49:55   if I go this way, but the gist of it is basically,

00:49:57   I don't think the market is going to be big enough

00:50:00   to make it worth charging money for.

00:50:03   Because when you charge money for things,

00:50:04   you have to support it in a very different way.

00:50:07   And there's overhead to that.

00:50:10   And I just don't think it would be worth it,

00:50:11   because I think the market for it is gonna be pretty small.

00:50:14   so I don't think it's worth charging.

00:50:17   And at the same time, open source is tricky

00:50:21   when you're talking about entire apps.

00:50:22   Like libraries and components, sure, that's easy.

00:50:25   When you're talking about entire apps though,

00:50:27   you have a lot of problems with people ripping it off

00:50:31   and uploading it to the app store under their own name.

00:50:35   It's a big problem when you open an entire app

00:50:38   doing stuff like that.

00:50:38   So I don't really wanna deal with that.

00:50:40   And I think the value of open source

00:50:44   is much higher at the library level

00:50:46   than at the entire app level.

00:50:48   - That's fair.

00:50:50   All right, so you've also been busy with your Apple Watch,

00:50:53   and we kinda made a mention of this earlier,

00:50:55   but it turns out your Apple Watch

00:50:57   does have a purpose after all.

00:50:59   - Yes, for testing my Apple Watch app.

00:51:01   No, it's fine. - Who knew?

00:51:03   - Yeah, I did a big watch update.

00:51:05   We had kind of alluded to this months ago,

00:51:07   and the truth is I've been working

00:51:09   on offline watch playback for months now.

00:51:14   It has taken a very long time.

00:51:16   And there's lots of reasons for that.

00:51:17   And it wasn't the only thing I was doing it during that time.

00:51:19   I did all of 3.0.

00:51:21   It was originally slated to be a headlining feature of 3.0.

00:51:26   There are lots of reasons why that didn't happen.

00:51:29   The main reason is that the state that I had it in

00:51:33   at the time 3.0 was going to ship,

00:51:35   it just had too many weird limitations and bugs.

00:51:39   and I decided it was not a good idea

00:51:42   to make a big deal out of this feature,

00:51:44   to have it be a headlining feature

00:51:46   of this major update of my app,

00:51:48   and to have it not work very well.

00:51:50   That didn't seem wise to me.

00:51:53   So instead, I pushed it off 'til later,

00:51:56   figuring maybe something will change in watchOS

00:51:59   in the next versions, and I can do it then.

00:52:03   And there were some other factors involved

00:52:05   that influenced this as well, but suffice to say,

00:52:09   it took a very long time to do because the way I did it,

00:52:12   in order to get podcast playback on the Apple Watch,

00:52:15   there's a bunch of major hoops you have to jump through.

00:52:18   One of them is just the data transfer.

00:52:21   Like the watch has very limited resources in all kinds.

00:52:25   That includes bandwidth, that includes storage,

00:52:27   and processing power.

00:52:29   And the API for it is very limited.

00:52:31   So there's certain things that you can't reliably do.

00:52:34   One of the things is that you can't reliably

00:52:37   just feed it any arbitrary podcast file off the internet and expect it to work. There

00:52:43   are limitations in its API, certain things that it doesn't play or it doesn't play very

00:52:47   well or certain formats and bit rates use way too much power and it actually becomes

00:52:53   like a noticeable load on the watch that you want to avoid. There's also issues like if

00:52:58   you're transferring it from the phone, then you have a serious problem of bandwidth and

00:53:03   of transfer speeds. It could take an hour to transfer a podcast file to the watch.

00:53:09   - Oh, seriously?

00:53:12   - If you don't compress it, yeah. It could take a long time. A lot of times it's transferring

00:53:17   over Bluetooth. Sometimes it'll use Wi-Fi if it can, but it's kind of vague as to when

00:53:21   and whether it will do that. So you can't really count on that. So basically it's a

00:53:25   huge challenge to get the files to the watch. And then once they're on the watch, there

00:53:32   There are massive challenges around,

00:53:34   there's only a few different ways to play audio on the watch.

00:53:39   WatchOS 3.2 added a couple of big things.

00:53:43   Before that, which was most of my development,

00:53:46   the APIs that were there,

00:53:47   there were like three different ways to play audio files,

00:53:49   and all of them had like fatal, massive problems

00:53:52   for playing podcasts.

00:53:54   One of them, you couldn't set the start time of the file,

00:53:57   so if you started it, and then you close it,

00:53:59   and you wanted to start it again,

00:54:00   you'd have to start from the beginning,

00:54:02   or somehow have the watch like splice the file.

00:54:05   One of my prototypes, I actually had the watch

00:54:08   splicing AAC files every 15 seconds

00:54:12   so that you would, so that it would be able to like

00:54:14   look and play this huge playlist.

00:54:16   It was, I tried a lot of things. (laughs)

00:54:20   And it was, it was a large period of trial and error.

00:54:25   Let's say that.

00:54:28   One of the APIs that you've probably seen before,

00:54:31   You could present a sheet that has the file,

00:54:35   but it only has the seek back and forward

00:54:37   by five seconds at a time,

00:54:39   and there's no way to change that UI.

00:54:41   So that is pretty bad also.

00:54:43   That it does allow a start time, which is fine,

00:54:45   but if you start a workout or a background,

00:54:47   then it stops playing.

00:54:49   So, and then there was a different one,

00:54:52   the WK Audio File Player API,

00:54:55   which is what the current store version, as we speak, uses.

00:54:58   And that has tons of problems,

00:55:01   and shortcomings, and it's bizarre things.

00:55:04   And by the way, I have filed bugs,

00:55:06   I have been in contact with Apple

00:55:08   about all these different shortcomings,

00:55:10   so I've done my duty there, but I don't think

00:55:14   they have a lot of resources to devote

00:55:15   to audio playback on the watch, honestly.

00:55:17   It seems like this is a pretty rarely used thing,

00:55:21   and their resources are probably elsewhere,

00:55:23   like iOS 11, so anyway.

00:55:28   One of the issues with the WK audio file API is like,

00:55:33   things like, if your app is in the background

00:55:37   and you initiate a player, that player will just never play.

00:55:41   It has some integration with the now playing glance.

00:55:46   So if you go to the now playing glance and hit next track,

00:55:50   whatever was playing will never play again.

00:55:53   But there's no way to tell in the API.

00:55:55   So you go back to the app and the API says,

00:55:58   I'm still playing, yes, I'm playing at 1X.

00:56:01   But then you just notice if you pull the time,

00:56:04   actually you say you're playing

00:56:05   and you say you're playing at 1X,

00:56:07   but the timestamp is not going up.

00:56:09   So in the version in the store right now,

00:56:11   I have things like timers that pull every so often

00:56:15   and check to see is the timestamp going up as it should.

00:56:20   If not, tear down and recreate the entire player.

00:56:24   There are so many limitations

00:56:27   and weird bugs with the current one.

00:56:30   What happened in 3.2, well first of all,

00:56:34   3.2 made it possible at all to use this API

00:56:36   because they added a set time stamp method on that

00:56:39   so that you could start a file from the middle.

00:56:42   And then they also very quietly, with no comment,

00:56:46   except in the release notes, they added the ability

00:56:48   to use AV audio player.

00:56:51   I'm like, oh, yeah, it's like,

00:56:53   well then why bother with all this crap?

00:56:55   Yes, let me use that.

00:56:56   (laughing)

00:56:57   And I should point out too, as far as I know,

00:56:59   I don't think I can actually move my entire core audio stack

00:57:03   onto the watch yet.

00:57:05   Some of core audio is there,

00:57:07   I don't know if enough of it is there,

00:57:10   or if I'm maybe missing things like audio toolbox

00:57:12   and some of the little accessory things.

00:57:13   So I don't think I can actually move

00:57:15   the entire thing over yet.

00:57:17   But AV audio player is good enough to do everything

00:57:21   except smart speed and voice boost.

00:57:23   And it has everything else in here,

00:57:25   It has a pretty good speed engine.

00:57:27   It is an in-process API.

00:57:30   The only reason I wasn't using it before

00:57:32   in the version that's in the store right now

00:57:34   is that it wasn't backgrounding for me,

00:57:39   reliably enough at least.

00:57:40   Like it would background sometimes and other times.

00:57:41   And I realized yesterday you had to set different

00:57:46   background audio flags in different places for that one

00:57:49   than you did for the original WK audio player.

00:57:52   Once I set those, it works perfectly.

00:57:55   Well, with a few bugs along the way,

00:57:59   but suffice to say, those are all fixed now,

00:58:01   as of about two hours ago.

00:58:03   It works perfectly.

00:58:04   The version that is currently awaiting Apple's approval

00:58:07   is this new version with AV audio player.

00:58:09   It's going to be awesome.

00:58:10   I should point out a few other things

00:58:12   that I hit along the way.

00:58:13   One of the things I did early on that took some time

00:58:17   but was worth it, as I mentioned,

00:58:19   none of these methods on the watch support

00:58:21   smart speed or voice boost.

00:58:22   And if you're accustomed to listening to over-catch

00:58:25   with smart speed, listening to anything else

00:58:28   seems kind of broken, it just sounds wrong.

00:58:31   And you can do basic speed-ups on the watch,

00:58:34   but I don't have the low-level access to the audio stream

00:58:37   to be able to do smart speed.

00:58:39   And so what I did instead was on the phone,

00:58:42   I experimented and found something fast enough eventually,

00:58:45   I'm actually transcoding the files on the phone.

00:58:48   If you have smart speed enabled, it bakes in smart speed.

00:58:52   - That's kinda bananas.

00:58:53   - You know, whatever settings that you would play the track

00:58:57   on on your phone, if you have it say,

00:58:59   play at smart speed at 1.25x,

00:59:01   then it will play on the watch at 1.25x

00:59:04   and it'll have smart speed baked in.

00:59:06   I'm not able to do voice boost yet,

00:59:08   and this is due to some low-level implementation details.

00:59:10   Basically, if I run this through an audio graph,

00:59:14   it is 10 times slower,

00:59:16   and it transcodes at about 12x real time.

00:59:19   If I don't run it through an audio graph

00:59:20   and just process the samples raw,

00:59:22   it runs at about 110 or 112X on an iPhone 7.

00:59:26   So I can transcode, you know,

00:59:28   a hundred times faster than real time

00:59:30   by not using the graph. - Goodness.

00:59:31   - So doing it through the graph is just too slow

00:59:35   to really ship that, and so there's no voice boost yet.

00:59:40   I have not yet written my own voice boost

00:59:42   that doesn't use a combination of audio units.

00:59:44   I plan to, but I haven't yet.

00:59:46   That's a low-level thing that'll be a fun project someday,

00:59:49   but it hasn't happened yet.

00:59:50   So that's why there's no voice boost,

00:59:52   but there is smart speed because smart speed

00:59:53   is a combination of C functions, not audio units.

00:59:58   So anyway, long story short,

01:00:01   when you send a file to the watch,

01:00:05   the phone transcodes it.

01:00:07   It transcodes it also down to a lower bit rate.

01:00:10   I did a whole bunch of testing to figure out

01:00:12   what is the best low bit rate way for spoken audio

01:00:16   to be heard on a watch.

01:00:18   Obviously there is some quality loss,

01:00:20   So it's just a question of balance, of how do I balance this?

01:00:22   Because the bigger the files are,

01:00:25   the much longer they take to transfer to the watch.

01:00:28   For me, a whole bunch of testing with HEAAC and AAC

01:00:33   and even things like some of the newer formats,

01:00:36   the OGG, what is it, Opus?

01:00:38   I don't know if it's, sorry if it's not officially OGG,

01:00:40   but it's from those people.

01:00:41   The new Opus format, and there's a whole bunch

01:00:43   of other stuff, and that would have been harder to decode

01:00:46   'cause the watch doesn't support it.

01:00:47   Anyway, I did a whole bunch of crazy stuff.

01:00:50   I'm transcoding to that on the phone, on demand,

01:00:53   baking in smart speed.

01:00:54   It also has a few other cool optimizations.

01:00:56   For example, if you are halfway through a podcast

01:00:59   and you say send to the watch,

01:01:00   it only sends the second half,

01:01:02   'cause there's no reason to send

01:01:03   the part you already listened to.

01:01:04   Anyway, here's all my secrets, that's how you do it.

01:01:07   And it's a whole lot of work,

01:01:09   but now I finally have offline watch playback,

01:01:12   and with the version that will hopefully be approved

01:01:14   in the next day or two, it'll be way, way better,

01:01:17   'cause it'll move to this newer API that's way more stable

01:01:20   and has speaker output and everything else.

01:01:22   So it's been quite a trip.

01:01:26   Oh, not to mention the whole system of like syncing

01:01:28   between the watch and the phone, that's a thing.

01:01:30   You have to sync your progress and not lose stuff

01:01:32   and not have stuff clobber itself during sync

01:01:33   and everything else.

01:01:34   It's been some, quite a lot of effort.

01:01:39   And all of this is for a feature

01:01:43   that relatively nobody will use.

01:01:46   And it's hard to justify this, but there's a few reasons

01:01:49   why I thought it was worth it.

01:01:51   Right now, according to my analytics,

01:01:53   something like half a percent of people

01:01:56   are using it or something like that.

01:01:58   And I haven't done a great job of promoting it,

01:02:00   so a lot of people don't know it's there yet,

01:02:02   but there's not a lot of people

01:02:05   who are gonna use this feature.

01:02:07   But it was a very highly demanded feature,

01:02:10   and it's the kind of thing where you might decide.

01:02:12   So what I've done is, while testing this,

01:02:16   I have paired my favorite walking headphones to my watch.

01:02:21   And so it kind of forces me to use my watch more

01:02:24   as the podcast player because I don't wanna unpair

01:02:26   and repair my headphones back to my phone

01:02:27   every time I leave to walk the dog.

01:02:30   So I've kinda gotten into this habit

01:02:32   over the last week or two and really gotten into this.

01:02:37   And it is pretty cool, I gotta say it.

01:02:39   It is pretty nice.

01:02:40   It's not as good as using a phone,

01:02:43   but you have to carry a phone.

01:02:45   And for a lot of people, people have been begging me

01:02:47   since the watch came out.

01:02:48   This has been one of the top featured,

01:02:52   one of the top feature requests for Overcast

01:02:54   since the watch came out.

01:02:55   Because a lot of people either can't or don't want

01:02:59   to bring their phone certain places

01:03:01   where they can bring their watch.

01:03:02   It's a very common request, for example,

01:03:04   in certain kinds of exercise like jogging

01:03:06   where a lot of people don't wanna carry their phone

01:03:08   or it's too clunky or it's in some kind of

01:03:10   inconvenient arm thing or backpack or something else,

01:03:13   then they want it to be totally on their watch.

01:03:16   So I understand that, I'm probably never gonna run

01:03:18   in my life, but I understand the people who do.

01:03:21   So it matters a lot to a small number of people.

01:03:26   That's the kind of thing I enjoy doing.

01:03:30   It's never gonna be worth it by the numbers,

01:03:32   but I do enjoy doing it just because of how much

01:03:35   it matters to that small number of people.

01:03:37   And the fact is, it also, I think business-wise,

01:03:41   it might also be a safe bet.

01:03:43   it might also be a good thing to do

01:03:45   because Apple likes it for one thing.

01:03:48   So it probably makes my app more likely

01:03:50   to be featured by Apple in the future.

01:03:52   Maybe it increases my chances of getting an ADA.

01:03:55   One can hope.

01:03:56   I never really think I have a chance at that,

01:03:58   but I really want one, so one can hope, right?

01:04:01   I also, I think that it's the kind of feature,

01:04:05   kind of like when people buy SUVs,

01:04:07   and like, what if I need to haul something someday?

01:04:10   And they never haul anything, right?

01:04:12   But I feel like if you're looking at podcast apps

01:04:15   that are out there, and you might think,

01:04:18   oh, I want that, even if you never end up using it,

01:04:21   or you hardly ever use it,

01:04:22   that might have still helped me get that sale,

01:04:26   or get that person to use Overcast

01:04:27   instead of something else.

01:04:29   So I think for a lot of reasons,

01:04:31   I think it is probably worth having done.

01:04:34   It did take a lot longer than I thought it would,

01:04:36   and a lot more work than I thought it would.

01:04:38   And it's not done either.

01:04:39   There's, what I have now is a system

01:04:42   where you still have to manually send episodes

01:04:45   one by one to the watch,

01:04:46   and they still take forever to transfer.

01:04:49   And I'm not entirely sure I can ever really fix

01:04:51   the taking forever to transfer thing.

01:04:53   That might just have to wait out the hardware advancements.

01:04:57   But sending one by one to the watch is also not great.

01:05:01   People have requested things like

01:05:02   automatically send episodes of this podcast

01:05:05   or this playlist to the watch,

01:05:06   and that has its own challenges and limitations.

01:05:09   Like for instance, I don't really know how much space

01:05:11   I have to deal with.

01:05:12   And if you tell people,

01:05:14   you can send this playlist to the watch,

01:05:17   I'm gonna design this feature for my playlist,

01:05:18   which might have like 15 podcasts on it at most,

01:05:21   and then somebody like Jon is gonna use it,

01:05:23   and they're gonna try to sync 400 audiobooks to it,

01:05:25   and they're gonna be mad when it doesn't work,

01:05:27   'cause there's not enough space in the watch,

01:05:29   which I can't even tell as the programmer.

01:05:30   So doing anything more

01:05:33   because of the constrained nature of the watch

01:05:37   is gonna be harder than doing those same things

01:05:39   on the iPhone.

01:05:40   It's also gonna be like massive UI challenges, right?

01:05:44   Like people are already asking for things

01:05:45   like chapter navigation on the watch.

01:05:48   And it's really hard to fit a good UI

01:05:52   that is both attractive and usable on that watch screen.

01:05:57   And it's, everything people want me to do

01:06:01   with this feature is going to be hard to do, basically.

01:06:06   But I think I finally got the basics nailed down

01:06:09   in this update that hopefully will be shipping

01:06:11   around the time this podcast comes out,

01:06:14   the 3.1.2 update.

01:06:16   Hopefully everybody will have that now

01:06:19   and it's gonna be great.

01:06:20   And I'm kinda glad to have it finally be done

01:06:22   and now I have a reason to use my watch again.

01:06:25   - Yeah, so have you been using the watch

01:06:27   for anything other than podcasting?

01:06:29   - Well, you know, I use it on my dog walks.

01:06:32   So, you know, I still prefer mechanical watches greatly

01:06:35   for general use and general wearing,

01:06:39   but the Apple Watch is, as the entire world plus Apple

01:06:43   have figured out over the last year or two,

01:06:45   whatever it's been, the Apple Watch is pretty good

01:06:47   for fitness stuff.

01:06:48   And so I am quite enjoying on my dog walks

01:06:51   being able to track the time and distance that I have gone

01:06:55   and get a nice cool GPS map of it if I ever want that.

01:06:59   It will probably remain my taking walks watch,

01:07:03   but for other times in my day,

01:07:06   I prefer mechanicals for other reasons.

01:07:08   - Did you get a Series 2?

01:07:10   You mentioned the GPS, are you saying,

01:07:11   'cause you have your phone with you,

01:07:12   that's why you get the GPS trace?

01:07:14   - No, I actually did get a Series 2.

01:07:15   I got a Series 2 this past spring,

01:07:19   or this past winter, while testing this,

01:07:20   because the build, run, debug loop on the Apple Watch

01:07:24   is so incredibly slow, 'cause the hardware is really basic,

01:07:29   and when you're doing build and run,

01:07:31   and build and run and debug,

01:07:32   it's all going also through your phone

01:07:34   and then to the watch over Bluetooth or whatever.

01:07:36   It's very, very slow to the point where

01:07:39   changing something on the watch and building and running

01:07:42   might be a 45 second long cycle.

01:07:44   And when you're doing a lot of that,

01:07:45   that time really adds up and really gets annoying.

01:07:48   So after a day of trying all these deployment methods

01:07:53   in the watch, I went to the Apple store and got a series two

01:07:56   'cause I asked Underscore, is it faster?

01:07:59   And he actually, of course, he timed it.

01:08:00   And of course he knew exactly to the second.

01:08:03   And it was something like 20 seconds faster

01:08:05   on the Series 2, I'm like done, sold.

01:08:07   If you can save me 20 seconds every single time

01:08:09   I'm building and running on the watch,

01:08:11   that is going to add up, and it did.

01:08:14   So I do have a Series 2, I'm very, very glad

01:08:16   I got the Series 2 because the difference

01:08:19   for development was immediately and incredibly apparent.

01:08:24   - So what Series 2 did you get?

01:08:26   I know you're just getting it, oh I just want

01:08:27   something that's faster for me to do my builds on, right?

01:08:29   but then did you go, okay, well since I'm buying one,

01:08:32   which one do I want, what color do I want, what bands,

01:08:34   like, what did you get?

01:08:36   - You know, I did go through a lot of that debate,

01:08:38   'cause I'm like, I'm just getting it for development,

01:08:40   I should just get the aluminum basic cheapo,

01:08:42   the cheapest one I can get, like, you know, just get down.

01:08:44   I should even--

01:08:45   - And every fiber of your being screams out, no!

01:08:48   - Well, and in theory, I don't even need the Series 2,

01:08:50   I could've gotten the Series 1.

01:08:52   Same processor, same speed, just, you know, no GPS.

01:08:55   - No GPS, yes. - And not super waterproof.

01:08:57   So I could've gotten that.

01:08:59   - But once again, your inner Marco says no.

01:09:02   - Well, here's the thing.

01:09:04   - Oh, here we go.

01:09:06   - So I'm accustomed to now wearing nice watches.

01:09:08   The reason I got into nice--

01:09:10   (laughing)

01:09:11   - Oh my God.

01:09:11   - You need to have a watch that lets you live in the style

01:09:13   to which you have become accustomed.

01:09:15   (laughing)

01:09:16   - The reason I got into nice watches

01:09:19   is because I fell in love with how the Apple Watch

01:09:24   made me feel when I looked at it on my wrist.

01:09:27   That is why.

01:09:28   When the Apple Watch first came out,

01:09:30   I obsessed crazily over which bands to get,

01:09:33   which color combinations worked.

01:09:35   I went over this for weeks, I was agonizing,

01:09:39   oh, will this band be more convenient to latch

01:09:41   or this one or whatever else?

01:09:43   And so it mattered a lot to me.

01:09:45   I really enjoy the way the Steel Watch looks.

01:09:49   And I really, unfortunately, don't enjoy

01:09:51   the way the aluminum ones look.

01:09:53   The aluminum ones, to me, look a lot

01:09:56   like a phone on your wrist.

01:09:57   The steel ones don't look like an analog device

01:10:00   by any means, but I think the steel ones

01:10:03   are very attractive.

01:10:04   I decided after much agonizing

01:10:06   that I wanted a steel one again.

01:10:08   The only way to get a steel one was to get the Series 2.

01:10:11   You can get the Series 1 in steel.

01:10:13   So I got the Series 2 and I got the steel

01:10:15   and I have it on, I think I came with a Milanese

01:10:19   'cause that was the only one I could get in stock

01:10:20   which I immediately sold

01:10:22   and I'm just using my old sport band with it.

01:10:25   - It makes me a little sad

01:10:26   that you haven't decided to come crawling back

01:10:29   to the Apple Watch, but you know, to each their own.

01:10:30   Like what you like.

01:10:31   - No, I mean, it has, no question, it has a lot of utility,

01:10:35   but it also has a lot of things it's not so great about.

01:10:39   And it like, man, I'm telling, when I'm wearing it now,

01:10:43   like for this testing, these testing periods,

01:10:45   every time I turn my wrist to look at the time,

01:10:49   it doesn't show.

01:10:50   Like every time, it's just like, just,

01:10:52   oh, let me exaggerate this motion again,

01:10:54   or let me tap it and it's just like, oh, come on.

01:10:56   So yeah, like when you're accustomed to regular watches,

01:11:00   the Apple Watch has a few things about it

01:11:01   that are very annoying,

01:11:02   mostly the delay when looking at the time.

01:11:05   And so it's fine, you know.

01:11:08   All the utilities of it,

01:11:10   things like notifications all day and stuff,

01:11:13   I don't really care.

01:11:15   I turn off most notifications.

01:11:16   I don't like having a lot of them.

01:11:18   So most of that stuff is not of much use to me.

01:11:23   and the fitness stuff, I don't usually have much

01:11:25   of a fitness regimen.

01:11:27   When I do, it's extensive dog walking,

01:11:29   so I'm using it now for that.

01:11:31   For most things in my life, I don't have the kind

01:11:34   of lifestyle that benefits heavily

01:11:36   from the Apple Watch's good things,

01:11:38   and the Apple Watch's bad things irritate me.

01:11:41   - Did you get the Earth Day badge?

01:11:43   - I did not.

01:11:44   I did get, reminds it about the Earth Day badge

01:11:47   on Earth Day, but I hit dismiss and did not get it.

01:11:51   Now I didn't get it because it was disgusting weather over here.

01:11:55   I didn't get that one.

01:11:56   I did get the Turkey Day one, but I did not get the Earth Day one.

01:11:59   Did you, Jon?

01:12:00   No.

01:12:01   Fair enough.

01:12:02   And you haven't put your watch on in months, I assume?

01:12:04   I wore it on vacation.

01:12:05   I wore it the whole week.

01:12:06   Why did you wear it on vacation?

01:12:07   That's what I do.

01:12:08   I do it when I travel.

01:12:10   Well, and I will say, it is a really nice travel watch because it sets its own time

01:12:14   zone and you can have your boarding passes showing on it and everything else.

01:12:17   So it is kind of nice for that.

01:12:19   - You've been walking directions in the city

01:12:20   to be able to tap on your wrist

01:12:21   to tell you which street to turn down

01:12:23   instead of having to constantly take out your phone.

01:12:25   - Yeah, that's true, yeah.

01:12:26   The main downside for me is then you have to bring

01:12:27   its separate charger.

01:12:29   And I'm trying to minimize the chargers

01:12:31   that I bring on trips,

01:12:32   and that's usually a really easy one to let go of.

01:12:35   - All right, anything else on anything watch-related?

01:12:39   - Hopefully not.

01:12:41   It's been a lot, a lot of Apple Watch stuff

01:12:44   the last couple of weeks, but.

01:12:46   - You've been working a lot.

01:12:48   - Yeah, I know. - I'm proud of you.

01:12:50   - Well, and like this whole,

01:12:51   like the whole transcoding engine

01:12:53   and baking in smart speed,

01:12:54   that I did, that work was all done months ago.

01:12:57   And I've just been sitting on it

01:12:58   waiting for a chance to use it.

01:13:00   And waiting for basically waiting for the watch APIs

01:13:04   to both get better and for me to figure them out.

01:13:07   Which both had to happen for this to finally be released.

01:13:10   But here it is.

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01:15:14   - Yet another tick in the Uber is gross box.

01:15:21   It seems like Uber has been using private APIs

01:15:27   to read iPhone serial numbers,

01:15:31   or they were doing this anyway a couple of years ago.

01:15:34   They were reading iPhone serial numbers,

01:15:35   reporting them up to their own servers,

01:15:38   And thus, this allowed them to track installations between deletes.

01:15:45   So you could install Uber.

01:15:47   It would look at your phone's serial number.

01:15:49   Let's call it 12345.

01:15:50   It's the same combination I have in my luggage.

01:15:52   And then you would delete the app.

01:15:55   You could then reinstall it later.

01:15:57   It will see that the serial number is still 12345.

01:15:59   And it would say, "Ha ha!

01:16:00   This is user ABCDEFG."

01:16:03   And so allegedly they were using this for fraud prevention, which is a legitimate explanation,

01:16:10   I think, but it just feels super gross.

01:16:15   And so the story goes that Tim Cook called in Travis Kalanick, Kalanick, whatever his

01:16:19   name is, the really skeezy head of Uber, and basically said, "If you don't get rid of this

01:16:26   post-haste, we're going to pull you from the App Store."

01:16:28   And guess what happened?

01:16:29   They got rid of it.

01:16:30   I don't think there's that many interesting things

01:16:33   to discuss here, but perhaps one of you

01:16:36   has some thoughts that I haven't thought of yet.

01:16:38   - I mean, to me, the main interesting part here,

01:16:40   I mean, we know this has been talked to death

01:16:41   on other shows, so we're not gonna spend

01:16:43   a lot of time on it.

01:16:44   The interesting part to me here is not necessarily

01:16:47   the horrible things that Uber did,

01:16:49   because Uber's always doing horrible things.

01:16:51   I urge anybody out there to stop using it.

01:16:54   I've been using Lyft since one of their other

01:16:56   recent scandals, and it's great.

01:16:57   It's totally fine.

01:16:58   It's like the same or better.

01:16:59   so just use Lyft or something else, you know, it's fine.

01:17:03   Stop using Uber.

01:17:04   Anyway, one of the cool things about this

01:17:08   that I thought was worth mentioning is,

01:17:10   and first of all, all these holes

01:17:12   that we know of are now patched.

01:17:14   IOkit, IOkit's a weird framework.

01:17:17   There's all sorts of stuff on your phone

01:17:20   that apps should not have access to.

01:17:23   Things like the phone part of it.

01:17:25   You know, there's a reason why apps can't like, you know,

01:17:27   dial your phone for you without interaction

01:17:29   or read your phone calls or anything.

01:17:31   All the stuff that iOS must wall off from apps

01:17:36   is a private framework.

01:17:37   And the way iOS is structured, apps,

01:17:41   with the exception of jailbreaking,

01:17:42   which ruins everything, but regularly in your phone,

01:17:46   apps can't call into private frameworks.

01:17:48   They just technically can't.

01:17:50   There's no way to do it.

01:17:51   They're walled off from apps.

01:17:53   IOkit is technically not one of these.

01:17:56   The role of IOkit in iOS is mostly to read data

01:18:03   about the hardware, and a lot of things

01:18:05   that are in the UI device API are just thin wrappers

01:18:09   around UIkit calls, things like reading

01:18:11   the screen brightness level, or the system--

01:18:14   - Thin wrappers around IOkit calls.

01:18:15   - Sorry, yeah, or the system battery level,

01:18:18   or things like that, just information about the hardware.

01:18:22   This is where things like the UDID used to be,

01:18:25   although now that's no longer available.

01:18:27   And Apple is pretty good about any way that you have

01:18:33   to uniquely identify phones,

01:18:35   Apple has been slowly getting rid of.

01:18:37   IO kit, for whatever reason, as I said,

01:18:40   it's not in that walled off area

01:18:44   where the rest of the private frameworks are.

01:18:46   So it actually is callable.

01:18:48   But you aren't allowed to.

01:18:51   It's undocumented, at least on iOS,

01:18:53   and it's officially forbidden.

01:18:56   And Uber is doing all sorts of tricks

01:18:57   to avoid being detected.

01:18:59   So I think there are two angles of this

01:19:02   that are worth talking about.

01:19:04   One is, is it possible for Apple to prevent

01:19:09   the use of private APIs on a large scale?

01:19:15   The way that they usually prevent it is during app review,

01:19:18   they have some kind of special testing environment

01:19:21   where if an app calls a private API during app review,

01:19:26   or if it has a private API symbols,

01:19:30   like literally in the app,

01:19:32   so if it has like the name of a private function

01:19:34   in the code, Apple can flag that

01:19:36   and they will reject it automatically for that.

01:19:39   But there are ways to get around this.

01:19:41   One of them is you can load the module dynamically,

01:19:44   or you can not have the name of the function in the code,

01:19:47   You can have a scrambled string that in code

01:19:52   you unscramble at runtime and then call that.

01:19:55   That's usually how these things are done.

01:19:58   And again, this doesn't work for calling

01:19:59   super private framework stuff, but it does work

01:20:01   for calling private methods on public things

01:20:04   or for the framework of IO kit, which is this weird

01:20:08   kind of middle ground where it is kind of technically public.

01:20:10   Anyway, do you think there is a way

01:20:13   for Apple to ever fix that?

01:20:16   It's kind of the halting problem thing where can you tell me here is this program?

01:20:22   Can you tell me how this program behaves, you know?

01:20:25   In the general case no, not really but all these things you're talking about

01:20:31   All you need to do I think is do enough so that

01:20:36   If something gets through your system, it was clearly done intentionally and like in the in the uber case one of the other

01:20:45   stories about this is that the way they were getting around is, you know, have all these

01:20:49   secret ways of dynamically loading the code and a lot of other stuff, but just to be safe,

01:20:53   don't do that when the GPS detects that you're somewhere within Apple's campus.

01:20:59   Right.

01:20:59   So the geofence, like the Apple campus, and say, you know, when you're inside this perimeter,

01:21:04   don't ever try to do this sneaky thing. Only when you're outside this perimeter,

01:21:07   somewhere else on earth, then do the sneaky thing to call the private API. So in that case,

01:21:11   Like, again, trying to detect, hey, is the program doing that?

01:21:15   Like, in general, no, there's no general purpose, computable,

01:21:19   reasonable time way to figure that out at all, actually.

01:21:25   Because it literally isn't calling the bad API.

01:21:27   And then you have to detect, how can I

01:21:29   tell if it is doing something that

01:21:32   lets it know when it shouldn't do the naughty thing that it's

01:21:34   doing?

01:21:34   But again, you just make the test hard enough

01:21:37   so that if it is doing that, someone can't say,

01:21:39   Oh, we just did that by accident.

01:21:41   That was just a bug, right?

01:21:42   No, I didn't mean to do that at all.

01:21:43   It's so clearly intentional.

01:21:44   Like at the point where you're putting scrambled strings

01:21:47   or assembling symbol names out of a bunch of scrambled data

01:21:50   spread all over your program, right?

01:21:52   Like there's no way you can explain that away

01:21:56   versus say, oh, I just called an Apple API

01:21:58   and the Apple API called a private thing

01:22:00   that accessed some file outside of the sandbox

01:22:01   and it's totally not my fault.

01:22:02   And that happens all the time.

01:22:03   And Apple be like, oh yeah, I can see.

01:22:05   Eventually you can convince Apple,

01:22:08   I was not doing anything intentionally bad.

01:22:09   is just some, you know, something that you didn't realize was actually happening in your

01:22:13   code and I'm doing the right thing and let's just all get through it. So I think that's

01:22:17   all they need to do. That's probably what they're currently doing. And I think that

01:22:21   is, that's probably sufficient.

01:22:23   I was thinking too, like the environment that they have in App Review that automatically

01:22:28   detects whenever this boundary is crossed that, that, you know, your app is calling

01:22:32   something private that it shouldn't be. What if they could deploy that to iPhones and maybe

01:22:38   not to all iPhones because I assume there's some degree of overhead involved here that

01:22:43   maybe would make it too power inefficient or too slow. But what if they deployed it

01:22:47   to say a large group of Apple employees phones? You know like that would probably catch a

01:22:53   lot of things in popular apps, right? So like whatever environment they have to detect these

01:22:58   things in app review, spread that out wider. Maybe they have like a whole bunch of virtual

01:23:03   virtual iPhones in the cloud that simulate using apps

01:23:08   and they track them on those.

01:23:10   They could do all sorts of fun stuff.

01:23:11   - They could just override GPS to get rid of the geo-offensive.

01:23:14   - Sure.

01:23:15   - Once you're running this faked environment,

01:23:17   you just hard code the GPS to be Antarctica or something

01:23:20   and you're all set.

01:23:21   - Right, exactly, and change the IP and everything else.

01:23:24   So anyway, I think expanding that virtual environment

01:23:27   would be one way to do this.

01:23:28   Whether that like tripwire environment,

01:23:32   whether it's just Apple employees

01:23:33   or whether it's simulated things in the cloud

01:23:35   or whether it's both or who knows.

01:23:37   I think they could do a lot there.

01:23:39   The second thing I wanted to talk about

01:23:41   about the Uber thing though,

01:23:41   which I think is probably more interesting,

01:23:44   is the dynamic here of this large app

01:23:48   violates a rule in a pretty big way.

01:23:52   Like obviously, you know, knowing it,

01:23:55   willfully violating it, blocking out Apple's campus area

01:23:59   so they wouldn't see it, evading detection,

01:24:03   obviously this was not like,

01:24:06   ooh, I accidentally called the serial number function,

01:24:08   like no, this was like willful violation

01:24:11   and malicious intent to evade these rules

01:24:16   that are there for very good reasons

01:24:17   in order to invade people's privacy.

01:24:19   It's really bad.

01:24:22   And if I did that in Overcast,

01:24:25   I would be kicked out of the app store immediately

01:24:27   and there would be no recourse.

01:24:30   I would be lucky if I was even told the reason

01:24:32   and that would be it, I'd be gone.

01:24:35   But if Facebook does things like this in their app,

01:24:39   which they do, and they get caught sometimes

01:24:42   and they say it's a bug,

01:24:43   oh sorry, we left the audio session running,

01:24:44   it's a bug that we are running constantly in the background

01:24:47   when we are in use.

01:24:48   Facebook does it all the time.

01:24:51   Twitter has all sorts of awful things

01:24:54   with tracking apps that are installed and everything.

01:24:56   Apple's locked on most of them,

01:24:57   But, and then you have Uber doing crazy crap like this,

01:25:02   and again, and their crazy location stuff,

01:25:04   oh, we need your location all the time now,

01:25:06   and all sorts of crazy stuff.

01:25:08   If a big company breaks a rule,

01:25:10   even in the most brazen, outrageous way like this,

01:25:14   they get a meeting with Tim Cook,

01:25:16   where Tim Cook calmly expresses his disappointment in them.

01:25:19   - Like any good dad would.

01:25:22   - I know, and oh man, I would not want to be in there.

01:25:25   and sternly tells them, you're gonna stop doing this now.

01:25:28   That's certainly a stern warning,

01:25:31   but that's awfully special treatment.

01:25:34   That is being incredibly generous towards this company

01:25:38   that is literally defrauding you.

01:25:40   Like it's like, they're doing really,

01:25:44   there's no way to read this charitably, right?

01:25:49   Why wasn't Uber just kicked out of the app store?

01:25:52   And I think the answer to that is interesting.

01:25:54   So I have some theories.

01:25:55   Obviously there's a question of who needs who more?

01:26:01   And I think the answer is, yeah, okay,

01:26:03   I think Apple could afford to do that.

01:26:05   I think Uber needs Apple more than Apple needs Uber.

01:26:08   But you do have to think about it just for a second.

01:26:10   You know, how many customers would Apple lose by doing that?

01:26:14   It's probably not zero.

01:26:15   So that's something you have to think about, right?

01:26:19   It would be even worse if that was Facebook.

01:26:23   So there are these big companies that Apple actually

01:26:27   doesn't wield complete power over,

01:26:29   that there is some power in the other direction as well.

01:26:32   And Uber is big enough that I think it's one of those.

01:26:35   Facebook is certainly one of those.

01:26:37   Facebook is probably the biggest one, actually,

01:26:39   when you talk about iOS apps, except maybe YouTube

01:26:42   or Google Maps would also be pretty high up there,

01:26:45   but Facebook I think is probably the biggest.

01:26:47   So there's that angle of Apple maybe can't kick out,

01:26:52   they're too big to fail.

01:26:53   They're like too big to kick out, right?

01:26:55   Also, if somebody like Facebook or Uber

01:26:58   got kicked out of the app store,

01:27:00   they'd probably sue Apple.

01:27:01   And what would be the result of that lawsuit?

01:27:04   Would they bring up antitrust?

01:27:06   Would Apple be at risk of maybe having to give up

01:27:10   some of their control over the app store

01:27:12   for antitrust concerns or for other legal concerns?

01:27:15   Like would they be at risk of giving up app approval?

01:27:19   - I don't think Uber would sue Apple.

01:27:22   I don't see anyone suing Apple for this.

01:27:24   Like, you hear people talk about it sometimes,

01:27:27   but there are big problems with that.

01:27:30   First of all, Apple has more money than you.

01:27:32   Like, whoever you is.

01:27:34   Apple has more money than you, right?

01:27:36   So in general, it's good when people have a lot of money,

01:27:39   you wanna sue them and get some of that money,

01:27:41   but it's bad if you're going into a lawsuit

01:27:43   that may turn out to be like this long running thing,

01:27:45   'cause you will run out of money before Apple does.

01:27:47   And second, the suit for,

01:27:51   The case for antitrust on Apple grows weaker by the day

01:27:54   as Android is like 80% smartphone market share

01:27:56   and growing, you know, worldwide.

01:27:58   It's really tough to make that sell.

01:28:01   And third, the whole App Store agreement,

01:28:04   everything is, I feel like, pretty ironclad

01:28:07   and doesn't leave any room.

01:28:08   And your only hope would be to say,

01:28:09   "Yeah, but it's a special situation

01:28:10   "because Apple has a monopoly on X, Y, and Z."

01:28:12   Like, it's so difficult.

01:28:14   I feel like there's almost no legal recourse.

01:28:18   The best way you could go is maybe defamation

01:28:19   because Apple will have to say Uber is doing a naughty thing

01:28:22   and they can say, no, we weren't,

01:28:23   Apple is, you know, whatever the equivalent of defamation

01:28:27   for companies is probably, maybe it's the same thing.

01:28:31   But I don't see the antitrust as being concerned.

01:28:33   I see this like, the first thing you said,

01:28:35   that the similar situation that I think we've all experienced

01:28:38   in some way, directly or indirectly in the US anyway,

01:28:40   has been fights between cable companies and channels, right?

01:28:44   Where there's some disagreement about how much it's gonna cost

01:28:47   to get HBO or ESPN on the cable package.

01:28:49   this is going back in time a little bit,

01:28:50   back when people still had cable.

01:28:52   And there would be this standoff,

01:28:57   in the same way that there's a standoff

01:28:58   between Tim Cook and Uber or whatever.

01:29:00   Like again, Facebook is totally the biggest one.

01:29:02   Say Facebook does nasty things.

01:29:03   Why does Facebook not get kicked out?

01:29:04   Why do they get like a stern talking to?

01:29:06   'Cause it's a game of chicken.

01:29:08   It's like, you know that we can kick you out of the store.

01:29:11   And we know that you know

01:29:13   that if we kicked you out of the store,

01:29:15   it would be disastrous for us and our platform.

01:29:17   but we might just do it anyway to teach you a lesson temporarily."

01:29:20   And so they're just staring at each other,

01:29:22   waiting to see who twitches first.

01:29:25   And with the cable companies and the channels,

01:29:27   very often it gets to the point where it's like,

01:29:28   "Sorry, Comcast is no longer gonna have ESPN.

01:29:33   It's no longer gonna carry Yankees games

01:29:35   on this channel or whatever."

01:29:36   And then it's a PR war between the cable company

01:29:41   and the channel to say, "Call the cable company

01:29:45   and tell them you demand to get the channel back."

01:29:47   and the cable company says, "Call whatever

01:29:49   "and tell them that you demand to be more reasonable

01:29:51   "'cause we can't pay," you know what I mean?

01:29:53   And that game of checking usually doesn't last that long,

01:29:56   and what always ends up happening is

01:29:58   the channel comes back to the cable carrier in most cases

01:30:00   if it's an important enough channel.

01:30:02   Because in the end, an iPhone without Facebook

01:30:05   is a bigger problem than an iPhone with a Facebook

01:30:09   that violates the rules every once in a while

01:30:12   and then you yell at them and you catch them

01:30:13   and they fix it, right?

01:30:16   and the people don't know who to blame,

01:30:18   why can't I get my ESPN anymore?

01:30:19   I turn on TV, I can't get the channel anymore.

01:30:21   I'm gonna change cable providers if I can at all.

01:30:23   If I can't change cable providers,

01:30:25   I'm just inarticulately angry.

01:30:27   But if I can change providers,

01:30:29   if that's the one channel

01:30:30   that was the most important channel to me,

01:30:31   I'm gonna change providers.

01:30:32   People would change phones if they couldn't get Facebook.

01:30:34   It's like, you can get an iPhone,

01:30:35   but oh, I heard the iPhone doesn't have Facebook anymore.

01:30:37   They will get a different phone.

01:30:39   That's the kind of power Facebook has.

01:30:41   Uber had that power?

01:30:42   Probably not as much.

01:30:43   It's much smaller.

01:30:44   There are alternatives, yada, yada, yada.

01:30:45   But that's the whole relationship here.

01:30:48   So I don't think you need to bring in threats

01:30:51   of lawsuits or other things into it.

01:30:52   I think you just need to look at the power dynamic

01:30:54   of customers want the app,

01:30:56   the app makes your phone more valuable.

01:30:58   If your phone doesn't have the app, it's totally a PR war.

01:31:00   Like can you imagine like Uber no longer on Apple phones.

01:31:03   And maybe that's not a big deal

01:31:05   because people would have all the alternatives.

01:31:06   But even for like a week, they said, guess what?

01:31:09   Facebook no longer on Apple phones.

01:31:12   That story would last like three years

01:31:14   of people saying I was gonna get an iPhone,

01:31:15   but I heard they don't have Facebook.

01:31:16   Three years ago, I heard they don't have Facebook.

01:31:18   I was like, that was just for two weeks.

01:31:19   It's like, well, no, too late.

01:31:20   It's already out there.

01:31:21   I got an Android phone again.

01:31:22   So yeah, Apple does not want that to happen.

01:31:26   And speaking of relationship between Apple

01:31:28   and important software companies,

01:31:29   software companies at various times

01:31:31   when Apple has been not as rich and powerful as it is now,

01:31:34   have been even more,

01:31:36   have had even more influence over what Apple does.

01:31:39   The best, most recent example is

01:31:41   Apple's entire modern operating system plan.

01:31:45   to get away from classic Mac OS to replace it with something else, was essentially squashed

01:31:51   by Microsoft and Adobe, two companies saying, "Yeah, we're not going to make apps for that."

01:31:55   And Apple said, "Well, whatever plan we thought we had that we thought was all awesome, and

01:32:00   we had a cool code name for it, but forget it.

01:32:04   Because if Apple and Adobe aren't on board and we can't convince them, there's no point

01:32:08   in us even doing this because a Mac that can't run Microsoft or Adobe software is pointless."

01:32:14   And so they didn't.

01:32:15   And they scrapped that plan, the Rhapsody plan, and said they did Mac OS X with Carbon,

01:32:20   and that got those guys on board.

01:32:23   And that's like one of the biggest, most important decisions Apple ever made, the life of the

01:32:27   company at stake, and who essentially ended up having veto power over what Apple does?

01:32:33   Two third-party software companies with really important applications.

01:32:36   And these days, I feel like Facebook and Google/YouTube and then a few other people to a lesser degree

01:32:44   have veto power over a huge number of platforms.

01:32:47   And there is, you know, Android,

01:32:49   I feel like has more power because if you can't put

01:32:52   your application on Android and that's 80%

01:32:54   of the world's smartphones, that's a big problem.

01:32:56   And then an Apple, Apple needs these applications

01:32:59   because they're a smaller percentage.

01:33:00   And the whole point of their phone is you get the best stuff

01:33:01   and you get it the soonest.

01:33:02   And if they take that away, then that's a problem.

01:33:04   So I'm not surprised at these sort of two people

01:33:08   yelling at each other and, you know,

01:33:10   being naughty and getting caught

01:33:11   and going around in circles.

01:33:13   I don't see any way that's going to change unless the power dynamic changes.

01:33:17   And in the meantime, if the power dynamic is not like that and you are just Marco with

01:33:21   one application, Apple doesn't have to play those games with you.

01:33:24   They can just shut you down.

01:33:26   And that's the way it is and makes perfect sense.

01:33:28   And there's no sense getting upset about the double standard.

01:33:32   Just learn to be smart and hide in the rocks if you're a little mouse.

01:33:37   All right.

01:33:39   Alright.

01:33:40   When the asteroid comes, you'll be the one to survive.

01:33:44   It turns out okay, well not you specifically, probably you specifically, mouse will be dead

01:33:47   but there will be other mice that live.

01:33:49   It'll be fine.

01:33:50   Well this took a turn.

01:33:52   Thanks to our three sponsors this week, Squarespace, Eero, and Fracture.

01:33:56   And we'll see you next week.

01:33:58   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin.

01:34:06   'Cause it was accidental.

01:34:08   Accidental.

01:34:09   Oh, it was accidental.

01:34:10   Accidental.

01:34:11   John didn't do any research.

01:34:14   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:34:16   'Cause it was accidental.

01:34:18   Accidental.

01:34:19   Oh, it was accidental.

01:34:21   Accidental.

01:34:22   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:34:27   And if you're into Twitter,

01:34:30   You can follow them at

01:34:32   CAS EYL

01:34:35   ISS so that's Casey Liss, MARCO, ARM

01:34:40   Anti Marco Armin, SIR, AC

01:34:45   USA, Syracuse

01:34:48   It's accidental

01:34:50   They didn't mean too accidental

01:34:56   Tech Podcast So Long

01:35:00   Jon you have made a long trip you have gone on a grand adventure

01:35:06   Would you call it a tour?

01:35:08   You could call it a grand tour actually. I would love to know Jon. What did you think of Britain?

01:35:13   So unfortunately for you I came back from the UK and did another podcast where we talked about all this stuff

01:35:21   And that was last night

01:35:23   So who got to you first you got scooped you got scooped by Merlin Merlin did

01:35:28   We talked about travel stuff. Well, fortunately we can probably release faster than they can. Yeah. There you go. See that that's a spirit

01:35:36   Anyway, I what do you want to know I covered I can cover different stuff I suppose

01:35:40   Okay, so how was that was the plane travel you went direct from Boston to Heathrow? Yep. That was fine

01:35:45   It was again got very lucky have been lucky on my flights recently not really bumpy at all straightforward

01:35:51   I we went to British Airways and we didn't go like the fancy class, but we didn't go like the cheapest one

01:35:56   It's like whatever one is in

01:35:58   The middle as far as I can tell it is exactly the same as the cheapest seats except for you have slightly more legroom

01:36:03   Which I appreciated because I got long legs

01:36:05   But yeah, it was nice there was there was USB ports in the back of the seats

01:36:10   Which I hadn't seen before which is you know convenient on the way back. I think it's the first time ever flown on a 747

01:36:16   Did you stare out the window for six hours whatever it took you to get there and back? That's what I do

01:36:21   do.

01:36:22   Oh my god.

01:36:23   So your poor wife is just sitting there basically doing her own thing?

01:36:26   She is not suffering.

01:36:27   She was playing Sudoku and watching movies the whole time.

01:36:32   Time flew by from the way there.

01:36:33   She's like, "Oh, I didn't even notice that.

01:36:34   Six hours just flew by."

01:36:35   She was obsessed with Sudoku lately.

01:36:37   So if you were to take movies everywhere, it's like this person is just staring at these

01:36:42   numbers and she would just do that for her.

01:36:44   Occasionally she would move or twitch in some way, but mostly stare at the numbers.

01:36:48   Indeed, indeed.

01:36:49   Fair enough.

01:36:50   So you traveled to Heathrow. What were some of the highlights? How about this? What were your favorite things that you participated in?

01:36:58   Oh, well, even before we got there, the food I had on British Airways going to London was the best airplane food I've ever had.

01:37:06   With the possible exception of Midwest Express's

01:37:09   Fresh Baked Chocolate Chip Cookies, which anyone who even remembers what Midwest Express was knows that that was a good deal.

01:37:15   And man metal silverware for crying out loud Midwest Express R.I.P.

01:37:20   Unless they're still alive in which case sorry, but I haven't flown them in years

01:37:24   But yeah, the bread, you know, everything's relative. It's airplane food, right but

01:37:30   The airplane food on the way out was like, you know full English breakfast thing

01:37:35   but imagine like the airplane version of that and

01:37:37   It was passably edible

01:37:44   Wow.

01:37:45   Especially the eggs.

01:37:46   You know what eggs are like on planes.

01:37:47   Like why even bother?

01:37:48   Like I expected them to just be like a complete write off, but I ate them.

01:37:53   And on the way back it was a bangers and mash type thing.

01:37:57   So first of all, they were doing like stereotypical British type food.

01:38:00   And like I'm going to say both of them are better than WWDC lunch easily.

01:38:04   Well they also cost you more than $40.

01:38:06   Oh God, I don't know how much.

01:38:08   You want to factor how much it cost on these plane tickets, how much of that was paying

01:38:11   for that meal.

01:38:12   There was a lot of food, there was variety, and every part of it was way better than I

01:38:17   thought it would be for airlines, for modern airline food.

01:38:20   Like I don't know what like old style like in the 60s airline food was like real food,

01:38:24   but like for all my life with the exception of Midwest Express, airline food has just

01:38:27   been grim.

01:38:28   And so this was, you know, better than grim.

01:38:31   So I was happy about that.

01:38:33   Okay.

01:38:34   So you stare out the window for six hours.

01:38:36   You don't play any Zelda or anything like that.

01:38:38   You're just staring out the window.

01:38:40   I can't look at the screens.

01:38:41   I can't watch a movie. All I can do is listen to podcasts, which is exactly what I did.

01:38:45   I forgot to bring, as I tweeted, I forgot to bring my Lightning to a headphone adapter,

01:38:51   which I only realized literally as I'm going to. Oh, let me get all my stuff plugged in.

01:38:56   So what did you end up doing? You used something Bluetooth?

01:39:01   So I figured out why I did it, first of all. Like, this is not the first time I've flown

01:39:05   with my iPhone 7. I've had it since, like, launch or whenever I got it. Like, it's not

01:39:08   the first time I've done it. I've flown with my iPhone 7 before, and I've remembered to

01:39:11   bring the adapter. I think the problem is I flew with it, I brought the adapter, because

01:39:16   you're worried, like you first get to think, "Oh, I've got a phone with no headphone jack,

01:39:19   I've got to remember, I've got to think about this, it's a friend of mine, you know, I've

01:39:21   got to worry about it," right? And then you do it and you remember it and you bring it

01:39:25   and you're like, your brain's like, "Well, you've solved that problem, now you never

01:39:28   need to worry about your phone again." But you do, because every time you fly, you have

01:39:32   to make sure the adapter's in there. So anyway, now I have two adapters, one of which is permanently

01:39:36   in the case with Bose headphones, with my Bose noise-canceling headphones, so problem

01:39:39   solved there. On the way out, what I did was I took my earbuds, which I had with me because

01:39:44   I'm an overpacker, like my lightning earbuds that came with the phone. I put them on my

01:39:48   ears and I put the noise canceling headphones over the earbuds so I could have noise canceling

01:39:52   and also podcasts.

01:39:53   That's right. I'd forgotten about that. Oh my God. That is absolutely preposterous. But

01:39:57   that actually ended up working?

01:39:59   Yeah. Totally worked.

01:40:02   That's awesome. What did you guys do the first day? So you arrived... What time of day did

01:40:06   you arrive?

01:40:07   We had like a morning flight so

01:40:09   We got up and on godly hour got up like 4 a.m.. To get our flight out and but anyway by the time we get there

01:40:15   It was by the time. I think we got to the hotel. It was like

01:40:18   Dinnertime I think I don't know exactly like you're so scrambled up from the flying

01:40:22   But anyway the whole day was shot all day because you're going to go nice

01:40:26   What do we do for the various days?

01:40:28   We did like all the touristy stuff you can do in London you name some touristy thing you can do in London chances are we?

01:40:32   Did it tell her?

01:40:34   Yes, all right

01:40:37   Chad what churchills war rooms yes, did you like that it's fine? Oh?

01:40:42   John

01:40:44   Poor Tina the British Museum

01:40:47   The they we saw Big Ben Parliament

01:40:51   Westminster Abbey Windsor Castle like we did all the things we you know had fish and chips

01:40:57   Tell me how amazing the fish and chips were I don't like fish and chips, but that's you know like oh

01:41:05   Bless America God save the Queen whatever I like fish I got but I got I don't like fish either

01:41:11   But I like fish and chips

01:41:12   Yeah

01:41:12   I got a pretty good pub sandwich made with us a lot of things in England have sausage in them

01:41:18   And I like sausage and so I had them and they were good. We ate a lot of different restaurants

01:41:22   Had all sorts of different kinds of food got to see some some people that we both know in London

01:41:30   Yeah, it was fine. It was nice. The kids weren't with us. I guess this isn't clear to everybody

01:41:34   We sent the kids away to their grandparents the Marco move

01:41:38   Yep, this is the first time we'd taken a vacation without our children since they were born

01:41:45   So it's first first vacation without children first first vacation

01:41:49   That's been the period that wasn't visiting family since our honeymoon because it's like we had our honeymoon

01:41:55   Which is just like a vacation that not to visit family with just two of us and after that pretty much every vacation

01:42:00   took was somewhere to go, you know, visit one of our families to go somewhere with the family. And

01:42:04   then the kids were born and they had a vacation, and at the very least it's with them. So…

01:42:07   So you haven't had a vacation?

01:42:09   Yeah. Well, this is kind of… This thing is supposed to be our 20th wedding anniversary thing.

01:42:14   Our 20th wedding anniversary is this summer, but we're like, you know, fitting it into the schedule

01:42:17   and when the kids off of school and camp and all the other vacations, this is the time when it fit

01:42:22   fit in basically.

01:42:25   So yeah, it was nice.

01:42:27   It was, I was going to say it was mostly relaxing, but we did so much walking.

01:42:33   It's like the most exercise and walking I've done in a long time.

01:42:38   Like I posted the pedometer plus graphs of what we did, but on the second day we did

01:42:45   like over 30,000 steps and over 15 miles.

01:42:49   And the average was over 10,000 steps for each day,

01:42:53   or not 10,000, sorry, over 10 miles for each day.

01:42:57   And I had my watch and I was counting my steps that way,

01:43:01   but I had my phone in airplane mode, so I didn't have GPS,

01:43:04   but my wife had her Series 2 watch

01:43:06   and her phone with an actual data plan on it,

01:43:08   so hers is more accurate

01:43:09   and her numbers were even bigger than mine.

01:43:11   And we were all going to the same places.

01:43:12   So we did a lot of walking

01:43:15   and I'm an old man and the bottom of my feet hurt.

01:43:17   - Poor baby.

01:43:19   - Sounds like a great vacation.

01:43:20   I'm just like, I love, first of all,

01:43:23   it's kind of mind blowing to me

01:43:25   that you've taken zero real vacations, you know, ever.

01:43:29   I'm trying to picture like, are you able to suspend,

01:43:37   and I say this in the most loving way possible as a friend,

01:43:42   - Are you able to suspend being you enough

01:43:45   to enjoy a vacation?

01:43:47   - I am awesome at vacations.

01:43:49   I am better than most people at vacations.

01:43:51   I have no problem relaxing.

01:43:52   I'm better, here's what I'm better at.

01:43:54   My idea of a vacation is relaxing and doing nothing.

01:43:57   People who wanna have a vacation where it's like,

01:43:59   we gotta go, we gotta have a plan,

01:44:00   we gotta see this, we gotta see that,

01:44:02   I'm the opposite of that.

01:44:02   I feel like those people are not good at vacations

01:44:04   where they're like, we have to do and see

01:44:07   every possible thing there is to do and see

01:44:09   and we have a schedule and we gotta wake up early

01:44:10   like, "Wake up early!" That's not a vacation. Like, my vacation is where you do nothing

01:44:16   in a beautiful place. That's my ideal vacation. So this is a compromise vacation where we're

01:44:20   going, we're traveling somewhere, I don't like to travel, but it's not that big of a

01:44:24   deal, it's not that long of a trip, and we're doing touristy things, but we're trying to

01:44:27   do them at a relaxed pace, and I don't have to worry about kids complaining the whole

01:44:30   time, so we can kind of do whatever the hell we want to do and be like, you know, a lot

01:44:34   of it was like, we did all this walking because we'd like, go do this thing, and then we'd

01:44:37   just say like, "Well, what else is near here?" And we'd, you know, find some place to eat

01:44:40   near here and then go do that thing. And we just like, it's like a random walk through

01:44:43   London. It's just all different places and all big circle. We went to, we went to the

01:44:46   Regent Street Apple Store. We went to like every park in London we walked through at

01:44:51   some point or another. And it's just nice being able to just say, "What do you want

01:44:56   to do next?" I don't know. I like not having a plan and just saying like, "Vaguely speaking,

01:44:59   there's lots of interesting things we might want to go see, but let's just go wander to

01:45:02   them. My ideal vacations are the vacations we take actually with our kids and my side

01:45:08   of the family on Long Island where you just sit on a beach all day for a week. That's

01:45:12   my ideal vacation, but other people don't like that, right? Although Marco is coming

01:45:15   around to it.

01:45:16   But, yeah.

01:45:17   I have indeed come around to it.

01:45:18   I think both of us have, because Marco and I, during the run of the show, I think we're

01:45:22   going tit for tat on who hated the beach more. And I think that the both of us have since

01:45:27   been converted.

01:45:28   Oh yeah, it basically happened like over the last like year and a half or so.

01:45:31   I've always loved the beach, and a lot of people hate it not just because they might

01:45:34   hate the beach, but because it's like, "What are we even doing here?

01:45:36   Who wants to sit in the sand all, like, what are we doing?

01:45:39   I don't understand what we're doing."

01:45:40   It's just like, you're just relaxing in a beautiful place, even with the kids and with

01:45:44   the family.

01:45:45   The kids just go off and run and do the thing they do.

01:45:46   It's a little bit more stress with me, like, making sure my children don't drown, you know,

01:45:50   when we go to the ocean.

01:45:51   Yeah, that's kind of a problem.

01:45:52   But, yeah.

01:45:53   But other than that, that's my ideal.

01:45:56   Being in a familiar place with good pizza and bagels and just having no plan except

01:46:00   to go to the beach every day and then come home and have a delicious dinner, then eat

01:46:04   Breier Mere pies and just, yeah. But we've done that every year for many, many years.

01:46:10   I'm not deprived of that. I get that all the time, right? And so this was more of a vacation

01:46:14   of like a more traditional sense. And then we went to Disney with the kids, which was

01:46:18   the, let's do a big family vacation with the kids and just sacrifice whatever our happiness

01:46:24   may be. We both love Disney too, right? So it wasn't that big a deal. But anyway, got

01:46:27   have the two kids, gotta make sure they're happy. This vacation is mostly for them. This

01:46:31   one was for us, but mostly for my wife. So yeah, we're not big vacationers, but every

01:46:37   once in a while we try to do it. And I'm sure this will be the thin end of the wedge of

01:46:42   like, "Let's go on different vacations." Like this is building up to like when we're both

01:46:45   retired and our kids are gone and she's dragging me all over the globe. So, you know, I'm preparing

01:46:50   for that.

01:46:51   Was this your first international travel?

01:46:54   I've been to Canada. Does that count?

01:46:55   No.

01:46:56   Not really, no.

01:46:57   - I've been to not just Canada, like just over the border,

01:47:00   but I've been to Newfoundland.

01:47:02   I've been to the easternmost point in North America.

01:47:05   - Still doesn't count.

01:47:07   - I've been out on a boat past the easternmost point

01:47:09   in North America next to an iceberg,

01:47:11   so that's pretty exotic.

01:47:12   - I do like in the chat room, listener Seagrin

01:47:18   made an interesting distinction.

01:47:20   He said, "Doing all kinds of stuff is traveling.

01:47:24   "Doing nothing is vacationing."

01:47:27   I think that's a very, very good distinction.

01:47:29   What you do and what we like to do now on the beach

01:47:32   is vacation, where we just do nothing in a beautiful place,

01:47:35   as you said.

01:47:35   And doing all kinds of stuff in a different place,

01:47:38   that's traveling, right?

01:47:39   Traveling is like you wanna see as much as you can see,

01:47:42   and so you are waking up early and going and doing

01:47:44   this and that all day.

01:47:46   So I kinda like that distinction.

01:47:48   - Well, you'd call Disneyland a vacation, though.

01:47:50   People say I'm going on a Disney vacation,

01:47:52   and Disney is one of the main places where people are like,

01:47:54   oh, gotta wake up, gotta get in this line,

01:47:55   gotta do this, gotta see all these things.

01:47:57   but they still call it a vacation, not traveling,

01:47:59   'cause where are you going?

01:48:00   You're just in Orlando the whole time.

01:48:01   - Yeah, so I have, I will say this,

01:48:04   I have never been to Disney.

01:48:06   It is not the kind of thing that I think I would enjoy.

01:48:09   However, just from the way other people describe it,

01:48:13   I would never describe that as a vacation.

01:48:17   - It's more fun than you think it is.

01:48:18   I mean, you should go at some point

01:48:21   when Adam is like the right age of like,

01:48:23   he's not gonna be melting down constantly,

01:48:25   but he's also not gonna be too old for it.

01:48:26   Like find that age that is the right age for that

01:48:29   and just take one family trip there.

01:48:31   It is more interesting and more fun

01:48:33   than you think it's going to be.

01:48:34   I'm not gonna say that you're gonna think

01:48:35   it's the most awesome place and you love it

01:48:36   and you would do it all the time,

01:48:37   but it's not as bad as you think.

01:48:40   - It sounds like more of an event.

01:48:42   You know, it's like, we just finished,

01:48:45   our kid's birthday was this past weekend,

01:48:47   and so we just finished like having a large party

01:48:51   and arranging all the logistics and everything else,

01:48:53   And like, from the way that I've heard friends,

01:48:57   including both of you, talk about Disney vacations,

01:49:00   it sounds like it's like hosting a party times a thousand.

01:49:04   Like all the stuff you have to like do and plan.

01:49:08   - No, it's the opposite.

01:49:09   It's the opposite of that.

01:49:10   You don't have to worry about all that crap.

01:49:12   Disney takes care of, like, it's like,

01:49:16   like Adam's party was for Adam,

01:49:19   that's what Disney is trying to be for you.

01:49:20   You're Adam in this scenario,

01:49:22   and Disney is you and Tiff.

01:49:24   They are taking care of all the crap

01:49:27   and making sure your needs are met

01:49:29   and just like, you just show up and be like,

01:49:30   "Ah, where's my cake?

01:49:31   "Where's my presents?"

01:49:32   Like, that's Disney.

01:49:34   That's what they're trying to do.

01:49:35   - Yeah, let me build on this.

01:49:36   So I have been begging to talk about,

01:49:38   well, that's not fair.

01:49:39   I have wanted to talk about Disney on this show

01:49:41   for a long time, but so Disney is so intent

01:49:44   on you having a good time

01:49:46   and not having to worry about anything

01:49:48   that if you stay on campus or in the parks,

01:49:52   I forget the technical term that Disney uses for it,

01:49:54   but if you stay at a hotel that Disney owns,

01:49:56   that's on the Disney property.

01:49:58   - On property?

01:49:59   - I guess, yeah, I think it is on property, but anyway.

01:50:01   So if you stay on property, if you book,

01:50:04   you know, with any amount of advance notice

01:50:07   and you're flying into the Orlando airport,

01:50:10   you can do this thing called Magical Express.

01:50:11   And what happens is when you go to JFK

01:50:13   or wherever you would go, Marco,

01:50:14   you deposit your checked bags,

01:50:16   They have a special Disney tag on them.

01:50:19   When you arrive at the Orlando Airport, you go to where the Magical Express buses are,

01:50:25   you tell them what hotel you're staying at, you board a bus.

01:50:28   You do not go to baggage claim.

01:50:30   You go to your hotel, you check in, you presumably get your room, unless it's silly early in

01:50:35   the morning, you get your park tickets, and then you freshen up and go to the park.

01:50:40   Your bags are still nowhere to be found.

01:50:42   You go to the park, you do amazing things, have a tremendous time, have a lot of fun,

01:50:48   especially you, Marco, because you would go at the bananas time of year when nobody else

01:50:52   is there.

01:50:53   Well, maybe not once he gets in school, but in terms of like jobby jobs, it's not a problem.

01:50:57   He's in school.

01:50:58   Yeah, I forgot about that.

01:50:59   But anyway, but the point being, you go and you have fun.

01:51:02   And then when you return to your room, poof, like magic, there's your bags all collected

01:51:07   all the way from the Orlando airport and placed conveniently in your room just for you.

01:51:12   That's how serious they are about you not having to worry about stuff.

01:51:15   Now with that said...

01:51:16   I would be worried the entire time whether my bag was actually going to be there when

01:51:20   I got there.

01:51:21   That doesn't work for control freaks, but there's something for everybody in that, like,

01:51:26   if that's not the experience you want to have, you don't have to.

01:51:28   Like just in general, like everything about the park is set up to make your life easier,

01:51:32   and they understand by now what is annoying about being in a hot place with a kid who

01:51:36   might be cranky, and you know, what makes rides like...

01:51:40   about it is nice looking and fun and clean and cheery and you know it's all artificial

01:51:45   and it's all park like I'm not saying it's you know the beach is better so I'm getting

01:51:48   that but you know going into this is what they're gonna be trying to be doing you think

01:51:52   it's not gonna work on me and it's just gonna be miserable and it still just kind of works

01:51:56   on you.

01:51:57   Yeah so the impression that I have gotten from listening to you guys and Merlin talk

01:52:04   about Disney vacations.

01:52:05   The degree of planning and required expertise

01:52:11   about the way that these things should be done,

01:52:15   is that mostly just you guys being you guys

01:52:17   and not the way it actually is?

01:52:19   - It's half and half.

01:52:20   - Yeah, it's kind of like, there's a certain personality

01:52:23   type who says that like, you're the type of person

01:52:26   who doesn't wanna be worrying about where your bag is.

01:52:28   If you're also the type of person who wants to go to Disney

01:52:30   and be like, I don't wanna go to Disney

01:52:32   not get to do all the super duper special things that I want to do. Like then yeah you got to plan

01:52:36   ahead for it and do all this stuff but if you just go to Disney you're like whatever I'll just do

01:52:40   what let's just walk around and see something that's interesting that has a short line and

01:52:43   especially if your kid doesn't know enough to know like I want to go on X and you know if they just

01:52:47   like wandering around starry I just like you it'll work out fine. You are enough of a planner that I

01:52:53   think you would do it a little bit ahead of time. Luckily there is an entire industry of people

01:52:58   whose only job is to plan your Disney vacation for you.

01:53:00   That sounds awful.

01:53:02   Oh, God, that would be so much fun.

01:53:03   Are you kidding?

01:53:04   There's another situation where you can throw a little bit of money at a person

01:53:08   and they will just do everything for you and tell you where to go and what to do.

01:53:12   And it's not that much money, especially once you see how much the bill for everything at

01:53:14   Disney is in the grand scheme of things.

01:53:16   It's not that much money.

01:53:17   And it's another example of like you being the Adam and just having these other people

01:53:23   take care of everything for you.

01:53:25   everything in Disney, it's basically like being rich for poor people. That's Disney for you,

01:53:30   right? Because like, for the rich people, like everything, everyone takes care of your every

01:53:34   need. And you just wake up and people have your clothes ready for you and cars whisk you from

01:53:39   place to place and private jets and helicopters and your food is served to you and just everything

01:53:42   is, you know, you know what I mean? No one's going to get that experience unless you have a

01:53:46   tremendous amount of money, like billions and billions of dollars, right? And also,

01:53:49   you know, are the type of person who can tolerate a living like that.

01:53:54   Disney is like you don't have that much money, but if you have a little bit more money to you know

01:53:59   if you have enough money to throw a

01:54:01   What seems like a lot towards us we will try to

01:54:05   Give you the you know, three degrees of magnitude less severe

01:54:11   incarnation of that like if you're never gonna go to a hotel where they treat you where they're like, oh

01:54:15   You know, they're they're at your beck and call if you're never gonna be able to afford that hotel

01:54:20   You can still go to Disney where reasonably nice people will try to be nice to you

01:54:24   And like that's it's like well this is close as I'm gonna get and and it's nice and

01:54:29   Everything here is nice and everyone here is trying to be nice to me. I mean I think was

01:54:34   Unreconcilable differences. I had an episode about the sustainability of Disneyland

01:54:38   Yeah time ago. I did some podcast like that is the thing where you see like can can people keep us up?

01:54:44   How can employees actually be nice for that long a period of time?

01:54:46   Can you actually get that many people to be nice to two obnoxious?

01:54:49   American tourists for that long like is it even is it sustainable like surely the cracks will show and I'm sure it is not now

01:54:56   Like it was in its heyday, but it is still

01:54:58   Nicer than you will be treated at most places that are not Disneyland for the same amount of money

01:55:04   Yeah, and the thing that is with regard to planning

01:55:06   I think John hit the nail on the head that it's kind of it depends on what kind of person you are

01:55:11   so I am super type a and I want to plan everything down to the second and if I want to I can do it and

01:55:17   And so I can get fast passes way in advance so I can figure out what rides I'm gonna ride which day at what time

01:55:23   Which if you're not a plan grant to book your restaurant six months in advance

01:55:26   Yeah, and I can book my restaurants six months in advance literally six months in advance

01:55:30   And if you're not a planner that sounds like work and it sounds miserable

01:55:33   That's the fact the met and the fact the matter is you don't have to do those things if you're a triple-a member

01:55:38   Which we have been for forever and it's like a hundred bucks a year or something like that. They have travel agents

01:55:43   That's the only travel agent I've ever used for wait

01:55:45   first of all, they're still AAA.

01:55:47   Second of all, they're still travel agents?

01:55:49   - Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:55:50   And you can go to a AAA travel agent

01:55:52   and say to them, "Look, I've never been to Disney."

01:55:54   - Where do you find them?

01:55:55   Like, behind the record player?

01:55:57   Well, I guess maybe you, yeah.

01:55:59   - I've never had a problem finding a travel agent.

01:56:01   But anyway. - Oh my God.

01:56:03   - So I'm really being serious, though.

01:56:04   And you can go to a AAA agent and say,

01:56:06   "Look, we've never been to Disney.

01:56:10   "These are the two things we wanna do.

01:56:12   "We generally like to take it easy

01:56:13   and not have like that many booked activities,

01:56:18   can you just figure out a vague arrangement

01:56:20   of things to do for us?

01:56:21   And they will make that happen.

01:56:23   I mean, hell, I would do it for you

01:56:24   just because I think this stuff is fun.

01:56:26   But the point is--

01:56:27   - So far from fun?

01:56:30   Oh my God.

01:56:31   - I mean, whatever it is that you like about Vegas,

01:56:36   if you and Tiff were to go to Vegas by yourselves,

01:56:39   so you don't have the social aspect

01:56:41   of your friends being there,

01:56:43   whatever it is you like about that,

01:56:45   excepting the gambling and maybe the booze,

01:56:48   'cause booze is less of a priority.

01:56:50   - It's like that, but not as nice

01:56:51   and without the sleaze and the smoke.

01:56:54   - It's certainly without the sleaze,

01:56:55   certainly without the smoke.

01:56:56   I would debate whether or not it says nice,

01:56:58   but you're probably having--

01:57:00   - Much more humidity.

01:57:01   - Yeah, that's true.

01:57:02   Less heat, more humidity.

01:57:04   You, Marco, are probably doing a different kind of Vegas

01:57:06   than I would do, and so Disney probably would be less nice.

01:57:09   As compared to the Vegas I've done,

01:57:10   it's considerably more nice.

01:57:12   But in any case, it's a similar thing.

01:57:14   And if you are willing to pony up the money

01:57:17   for a Disney meal plan upfront,

01:57:19   you can eat two or three meals a day

01:57:22   and not have to worry about what they cost.

01:57:23   You don't have to worry about where you go

01:57:26   because they all take the meal plan basically.

01:57:28   So it is a phenomenally fun time.

01:57:32   And I genuinely cannot wait to take Declan there

01:57:35   because seeing it through his eyes,

01:57:37   I think would be worth the price of admission,

01:57:38   which is tremendous.

01:57:40   - Yeah, that's a big thing about it.

01:57:42   Like, you would go there and like, no matter how much you like it, it would be a vacation

01:57:45   for Adam, which is why you're playing it based around what age you think he's most able to

01:57:49   enjoy it to its fullest.

01:57:51   And kids love it.

01:57:52   Kids love Disneyland, right?

01:57:53   Even if your kid is not indoctrinated in the Disney world and doesn't know all the characters,

01:57:56   just everything there is fun for kids of the right age.

01:57:59   And so you will enjoy the vacation because you will see how much he is enjoying himself.

01:58:04   And it will make you enjoy it more.

01:58:06   I think one of the most fun things we did on our vacation, if you'd asked me before

01:58:09   to predict what that might be, I would not have called it the way I did, was we had dinner

01:58:14   in the big Disney castle, you know, the big one you see in the, you know, the big Disney

01:58:19   castle, you know, whatever it's called.

01:58:20   The big, like, gray one that's in, like, the intro to the movies?

01:58:23   Cinderella's castle.

01:58:24   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:58:25   It's a little, you know, it's the real-life one, and it's a restaurant in there where

01:58:28   you can have dinner.

01:58:30   And I don't remember if I talked about this on rec diffs or here, that I have a giant

01:58:35   thing where I complain about the food at Disney at some point.

01:58:37   No, but now I want to know.

01:58:39   Yeah, there's a lot to go to that.

01:58:41   What I'm getting at is I didn't enjoy it because of the food.

01:58:44   I enjoyed it because it's--

01:58:47   first of all, eating inside the actual real Disney castle

01:58:50   is cool.

01:58:50   I grew up my whole life seeing the Disney castle

01:58:52   and pictures of it and the logo of the beginning of movies

01:58:55   and all that stuff, and Walt Disney and the whole thing.

01:58:58   The Disney castle has some meaning for me.

01:59:00   Maybe it doesn't for you, but for me it does, right?

01:59:03   And I'm eating inside it, and that's cool.

01:59:04   And second, like many of the places

01:59:07   where you can book dinners there,

01:59:08   They have like people playing the Disney characters coming around from table to table to you know say hi to your kids and stuff and

01:59:14   My son was a little old toward and a little shy my daughter was super into it

01:59:19   She likes seeing you know Jasmine and Belle and Snow White. She knew who these characters she'd seen the movies

01:59:24   there are people dressed as them and

01:59:26   She had a blast she got to have a meal and got to pick off or pick the different foods that she wanted to have

01:59:32   sounded fancy to her and

01:59:34   The people come around to the table and you know

01:59:36   Luckily, I have one at least one of my kids is not terrified and shy of like characters that come around at the table

01:59:41   And she had a blast and I had fun because she had fun and we were in Disney Castle and that

01:59:46   Was that was a good memory that I would not have predicted

01:59:49   Would have been as much on he went there with no kids

01:59:52   Probably not but we after he put it this way after we came back from the Disney vacation

01:59:56   My wife and I were talking about maybe we would go on a vacation without the kids there because in some respects you have fun

02:00:03   You have fun with the kids, but in other respects you realize there you're limited to what you can do because the kids have you know

02:00:08   They they run down and eventually, you know that adults are able to

02:00:13   do things that may bore the kids or

02:00:16   Sustain like, you know every every night we were there

02:00:19   We were like in bed by the time fireworks off which by the way

02:00:22   We saw fireworks outside our belt balcony literally every single night and it never got old

02:00:26   They weren't our fireworks. They were actually distant fireworks or whatever

02:00:30   But but anyway if you're there and as adult you can go out at night and see the fire

02:00:33   But you stole someone else's fireworks is that like pirating the fireworks wow that's plenty

02:00:38   It's just it's just infringement because the fireworks still exist over there. You know we see them right. We're not actually taking them

02:00:44   Anyway, we had a good time

02:00:46   And we were in thinking about like we should come back ourselves because we could have you could have even more fun with just us

02:00:51   Without having to worry about like keeping the kids happy and they're making Star Wars land

02:00:56   So maybe we will go back for that. So wait, wait, tell me about what made the food so crappy.

02:01:00   We don't have time for that. We don't have time.

02:01:01   I don't wanna, you can leave it on the list if you want to see it, but like. Oh, I want to hear about this.

02:01:06   The Accidental Food Podcast returns.

02:01:08   Yeah, not tonight. It should be every after show. I'm ready. My body is ready.

02:01:13   So we'll just ditch ATP entirely and turn it into the, into AFP.

02:01:18   Which is both the Apple or the Accidental File System Podcast.

02:01:22   Like picky food podcast PF picky eaters podcast, but if it's AFP

02:01:27   It's the Apple file system podcast and app in accidental food podcast

02:01:31   Oh my god, the pep talk is a good name for the podcast if it's picky eater podcast we get pep to bismol to sponsor

02:01:38   The pep boys. It's all it'll all work out. It's perfect ship it

02:01:43   [BEEPING]