217: Apology Mac Pro


00:00:00   We need more investigative journalism. No one actually, I mean with the exception of

00:00:03   I guess 9to5Mac and Bloomberg because they got, what's his name? Like who's out there

00:00:10   digging through dumpsters to find out what the new Mac Pro is going to be? Let's get

00:00:13   some old-fashioned journalism on this. I think first Apple needs to figure out what the new

00:00:18   Mac Pro is supposed to be. Yeah, well you know if you dig through dumpsters and find

00:00:21   out like, you know, too bad they don't use paper anymore, but like find out they're just

00:00:25   now having meetings about what they might do about this. Like you can get timelines

00:00:29   on it but anyway as time passes and we wait for WWC to appear things could leak

00:00:33   let's you know let's find stuff out let's get some engineers drunk let's

00:00:38   find out some answers yeah because that always works all that gets you is a

00:00:42   pre-release iPhone yeah that's the only thing that works I mean I can spoil it

00:00:46   for you right now John you're not gonna know until like it launches the two

00:00:51   things that you're gonna complain about and convince yourself not to buy it

00:00:54   about you're not gonna know the price and you're not gonna know the GPU

00:00:57   The GPU choice could leak. Like if they're using NVIDIA, I feel like that could leak,

00:01:01   right? And if they are using NVIDIA, they're going to be using Pascal.

00:01:05   It might leak that they're using NVIDIA, but it wouldn't leak which one they're using.

00:01:10   It would leak that they're using Pascal architecture. It would just be a question of which part.

00:01:14   But even that would be enough to be exciting.

00:01:19   It's been so long since we talked. A lot has happened in the news this week of April 8th

00:01:26   or ninth or whatever, right?

00:01:29   You know, today, as we talk,

00:01:30   has obviously got to be April 12th, 2017.

00:01:34   - Of course it is.

00:01:35   - But rather than talk about the exciting news

00:01:38   that has happened this week,

00:01:39   we thought we'd talk more about what has happened,

00:01:43   say, early last week, maybe before April 6th.

00:01:47   - Indeed.

00:01:48   Yeah, we thought we'd just do a recap,

00:01:50   because why wouldn't we?

00:01:52   And so here we are.

00:01:54   And so that amazing news about Nintendo that happened, you know, just a couple of days ago on the 10th or the 11th,

00:02:00   we're gonna save that for next week.

00:02:02   The good news is we've covered everything that we could possibly cover about the Mac Pro,

00:02:06   so we don't have to talk about it until it comes out in 2019.

00:02:08   So, let's talk about some other things.

00:02:10   Wait, do we really have no follow-up trademark on about the Mac Pro?

00:02:13   No, let Casey get through his little song and dance.

00:02:16   Don't worry. Don't you worry.

00:02:20   All right, I can't even take this seriously

00:02:24   'cause I know that I'll be murdered

00:02:25   if I don't bring up Mac Pro stuff, so here we go, kids.

00:02:29   TechCrunch, the things I do for you two,

00:02:33   I hope you appreciate me.

00:02:34   - I'm so sorry, Casey.

00:02:36   I'm just so sorry for you for during this time.

00:02:39   I know this is a very difficult time

00:02:43   to be on our podcast during Mac Pro Week.

00:02:47   - Mac Pro Week?

00:02:48   Mac Pro Week?

00:02:49   Are you (beep) me?

00:02:50   It's Mac Pro year.

00:02:52   - Yeah, I like when they call this the year of Mac Pro

00:02:55   and we're just gonna keep calling it the year of Mac Pro

00:02:57   until they release one.

00:02:58   Which might be a whole other year.

00:03:00   - Anyway, all right, let's do a little follow up

00:03:03   about the Mac Pro and then hopefully we can move on.

00:03:06   TechCrunch, Matt Panazarino and team at TechCrunch

00:03:09   have posted the full transcript of their meeting.

00:03:12   I guess he recorded it by some mechanism

00:03:15   and had Hammer, one of his people,

00:03:19   go ahead and transcribe it all.

00:03:20   So we will put that in the show notes.

00:03:22   I have yet to have a chance to even look at it.

00:03:24   There are definitely parts as much as I snark

00:03:26   that I think are interesting

00:03:29   that I'd like to read a little more about,

00:03:30   but I haven't had the chance yet.

00:03:31   So you can check that out in the show notes.

00:03:35   Is that really the only Mac Pro follow-up?

00:03:36   Oh, because one of you made it a topic, I see.

00:03:38   - The topic is, anyway, we'll get to it.

00:03:41   On the transcript, I read the whole transcript

00:03:44   and surprise, surprise, surprise,

00:03:47   the people they had there reporting on it

00:03:49   did a good job reporting on it.

00:03:50   Like there's not any important information

00:03:52   in the transcript that you're missing.

00:03:53   You can read it just to get a flavor of what they said

00:03:56   and stuff like that, but it was well covered.

00:04:00   It's not as if they left out major sections

00:04:02   that were important.

00:04:03   The fun thing about the transcript is you can see,

00:04:06   since it's a fairly faithful transcript, I would imagine,

00:04:08   because it's got all people's false starts

00:04:10   and weird sentence structures and stuff.

00:04:13   That's just what happens when people speak.

00:04:16   You can see occasionally people getting their,

00:04:21   reining in their instincts.

00:04:22   One particular instance is Craig Figueire talking about,

00:04:26   you know, the old Mac Pro and the architecture

00:04:28   with the tube and the heating and, you know,

00:04:30   how it was difficult to put different components

00:04:34   in it and everything.

00:04:35   And so he talks about all of that.

00:04:36   And then he said how they really put a lot of energy

00:04:40   behind that design.

00:04:41   And the next bit is in retrospect, that was dot, dot, dot.

00:04:46   And he was about to say in retrospect,

00:04:47   that was a mistake, that was a bad idea,

00:04:50   that was not the right thing to do.

00:04:51   But he doesn't say that because he is disciplined.

00:04:53   He gets into the sentence, but then he says,

00:04:55   "Abort, abort, in retrospect, that was new sentence.

00:04:58   "While that system is going to be fantastic

00:05:00   "for a huge number of customers, we want to do more."

00:05:03   There you go, and Phil smiles next to him

00:05:04   and says, "Good job, Craig,

00:05:05   "you almost landed in it there."

00:05:07   But anyway, they're very disciplined with their message.

00:05:11   Craig still manages to be funny and witty

00:05:14   within the bounds of being disciplined for PR.

00:05:17   And Phyllis is, Phyllis Fell,

00:05:20   he's the guy we know and love.

00:05:21   So if you have seen a lot of presentations

00:05:25   with the people who are at this meeting,

00:05:28   then you will definitely get the flavor of them

00:05:30   just reading the transcript.

00:05:31   And I don't know much about John Turnus.

00:05:33   I'm not sure I've ever seen him on stage,

00:05:34   but he's the other guy.

00:05:36   - Fair enough.

00:05:38   All right, moving on.

00:05:39   Just like that, we're done with Mac Pro, right kids?

00:05:41   Right, okay, so workflow.

00:05:43   So somebody that listens to our show had a conversation with the support team at Workflow,

00:05:50   and they received the following email, which was then forwarded on to us.

00:05:55   The person at Workflow said, "Blah, blah, blah, fix for your problem, blah, blah, blah.

00:06:01   But just so you know, we have no further planned updates for Workflow.

00:06:06   That being said, we are continuing to support Workflow's current functionality of no plans

00:06:10   to end support.

00:06:11   Let me know if you run across any bugs or crashes.

00:06:14   Cue the sad trombone here, Marco.

00:06:16   Womp, womp.

00:06:18   - Yeah, I mean, to be honest,

00:06:19   like, you know, when workflow was acquired,

00:06:22   and we did mention, like, you know,

00:06:24   they might just let it die or kill it outright,

00:06:27   and, you know, have the staff work on other stuff

00:06:29   built into iOS, like, that was kind of the long-term idea

00:06:32   that that was most likely to happen.

00:06:34   I will admit, I did not foresee them,

00:06:38   because of the way it was bought

00:06:41   and because of the messaging around the time

00:06:43   that it was bought and what they told the users,

00:06:46   I did not foresee them totally stopping

00:06:49   all updates to the app right now.

00:06:51   Or at least, I think the way this reads,

00:06:54   it's like they might do bug fix updates, but that's it.

00:06:58   No new features are coming to workflow.

00:07:00   That is unfortunate, but I guess not a huge surprise.

00:07:07   'Cause that's what happens.

00:07:09   this was clearly an acqui-hire,

00:07:12   in the sense that Apple wanted the staff

00:07:15   more than the product.

00:07:16   And whether that was to make the staff work on

00:07:18   something boring like mail.app, probably not.

00:07:22   It was probably to have the staff work on

00:07:24   workflow-like functionality.

00:07:26   Automation technology is for iOS, that's my guess.

00:07:30   But the fact is, if you're a workflow user,

00:07:33   this doesn't make it any easier to take

00:07:35   that basically workflow is effectively dead

00:07:39   in the sense that no one will really be working on it anymore

00:07:43   unless they want to fix some bugs for some reason,

00:07:46   but that's about it.

00:07:47   So that is pretty unfortunate for workflow users

00:07:49   and I hope that in the end this will prove worth it.

00:07:53   In many acqui-hires, what happens is

00:07:58   the product gets shut down, the team goes to work

00:08:01   on something similar within the bigger acquiring company,

00:08:04   And sometimes that sees the light of day,

00:08:06   and sometimes it doesn't.

00:08:08   Or sometimes what eventually comes out of that

00:08:10   from the bigger company is not nearly as good

00:08:12   as the acquired app was.

00:08:15   And it's kind of a crap shoot, you don't really know.

00:08:16   So I hope that this will lead to better stuff in iOS

00:08:21   that will replace the need for workflow

00:08:23   for the people who use it today.

00:08:25   But honestly, that's not the most likely outcome.

00:08:29   The most likely outcome is iOS stuff moves forward

00:08:32   a little bit.

00:08:34   We get some part of this in a future version of iOS.

00:08:38   And then maybe the original staff who created it

00:08:43   goes to work on other things with an Apple,

00:08:44   or maybe after a few years they get unhappy

00:08:46   and leave and do something else.

00:08:48   That kind of thing is more likely to happen

00:08:51   than iOS gaining complete functionality like Workflow,

00:08:57   or even something close to it.

00:08:59   - I gotta tell you, I place much higher odds

00:09:02   on workflow being an Apple branded application

00:09:06   for some period of time.

00:09:08   Like that it would be brought into the fold,

00:09:10   workflow by Apple as a downloadable thing on the App Store,

00:09:15   possibly bundled with the future OS update,

00:09:17   while they worked on the next integration,

00:09:20   you know what I mean?

00:09:21   And just, this is pretty quick.

00:09:23   Like you said, the press releases,

00:09:25   and then very shortly after,

00:09:27   yeah, we're not doing that anymore.

00:09:28   - Yeah, I mean, what's it been, like 10 days?

00:09:30   Like it has not been very long.

00:09:32   - Yeah, sad times.

00:09:33   I don't know, I mean,

00:09:34   I don't know what to make of all of this.

00:09:37   It's just gonna be interesting watching Mike

00:09:40   have to become a real true honest to goodness programmer

00:09:43   and writing Pythonista scripts.

00:09:45   - Oh God.

00:09:45   - He's gonna have no other choice.

00:09:47   So Mike, welcome to our world.

00:09:49   - Well, no, 'cause workflow will keep working.

00:09:51   Like I think they will keep it working.

00:09:52   It's just like, I mean--

00:09:53   - It'll keep it flowing?

00:09:54   - You know, well, yeah.

00:09:55   Well, what are, were there major features

00:09:57   that people wanted to add to workflow?

00:09:58   Like you can add workflows.

00:10:00   people can continue to do that and share and distribute those.

00:10:04   The workflow app is just the engine.

00:10:05   So I feel like it should last people until something new

00:10:10   comes.

00:10:11   So that's a good outcome.

00:10:12   But if you were really excited about the engine gaining

00:10:15   features, then you're sad.

00:10:16   Well, so in the past, I remember when extensions came out.

00:10:21   And I think even sometime last year, for some reason,

00:10:24   I've discussed on this show how I

00:10:25   I think the future of URL scheme usage on iOS

00:10:30   is probably limited because now Apple has things

00:10:34   like universal links, which replace a lot of the need

00:10:38   for URL schemes for average uses.

00:10:41   And X-callback URL and things like that are used

00:10:44   only by a narrow amount of power users

00:10:47   for legitimate purposes, and there's lots of abuses

00:10:51   that they're used for.

00:10:52   And Apple has slowly clamped down on that over time

00:10:56   to the degree that they can with various iOS changes

00:10:59   like having to declare your URL schemes that you query for

00:11:02   in your info.plist file and stuff like that.

00:11:05   But it's no real secret that Apple is not a huge fan

00:11:09   of URL schemes being used for purposes like this.

00:11:11   That I would guess Apple probably wants to get rid of them

00:11:14   and make them actually impossible

00:11:17   for various privacy and security reasons,

00:11:19   which is completely reasonable.

00:11:21   So it would not surprise me at all if,

00:11:24   say, maybe not iOS 11, but maybe iOS 12,

00:11:29   maybe end support for calling other apps

00:11:32   via open URL and can open URL.

00:11:36   And at that point, workflow would,

00:11:38   there are still other features of workflow

00:11:41   as it exists today, it could do other things,

00:11:44   but that would lop off such a big portion

00:11:46   of what it could do that I think

00:11:47   that would effectively kill the app.

00:11:50   And hopefully by the time Apple does something like that,

00:11:53   if they're going to do something like that,

00:11:54   hopefully they would have some kind of replacement in mind

00:11:57   like maybe whatever the workflow staff

00:11:59   is working on at Apple now.

00:12:01   I hope that's how it would go,

00:12:02   but the thing is with big companies and with acquisitions,

00:12:05   you don't know that it's actually gonna go that way.

00:12:07   Like that could be everyone's intention and plan now,

00:12:10   but at big companies, things change.

00:12:13   In six months, something else might be a bigger priority.

00:12:16   They might be reassigned to work on that,

00:12:17   and this project just doesn't continue,

00:12:20   or anything like that.

00:12:21   I mean, this is kind of just a side effect

00:12:23   of the economies going on here.

00:12:27   Early on in Instapaper's days,

00:12:33   I had a couple of early discussions about acqui-hires,

00:12:37   companies, some of the big tech companies

00:12:40   wanting to buy Instapaper for some

00:12:43   relatively insignificant amount

00:12:45   in order to get me to come work for them.

00:12:48   And these conversations always stopped pretty early on

00:12:51   because at that time Instapaper was making very good money

00:12:54   'cause it was selling for like 10 bucks

00:12:56   and then later five bucks in the app store

00:12:58   and it was selling pretty well.

00:13:00   And so whenever we get to the money part

00:13:05   of the early conversations,

00:13:06   it would very quickly end the conversations

00:13:08   because it was like, well,

00:13:09   for me to stop making this money from this app,

00:13:12   you're going to have to pay at least X for it

00:13:14   and that was more than they were willing to pay

00:13:17   to just get some engineer to come work for them.

00:13:19   And the problem is that as the app economy has gotten worse,

00:13:24   and as the big handful of tech companies have gotten bigger

00:13:30   and have had more money and have even tighter competition

00:13:34   for engineering talent, the economics of this have shifted

00:13:38   so much so that it is very hard for most app developers

00:13:44   to turn down a decent aqua hire deal today.

00:13:47   Because most apps are not making that much money anymore

00:13:51   and these companies can now afford to pay a lot

00:13:54   for good engineering talent.

00:13:56   And they would rather,

00:13:57   and there's so much competition for that,

00:13:59   they would rather do that than let these apps continue,

00:14:04   I guess.

00:14:05   And again, as the developers of these apps,

00:14:08   you can't really fault them.

00:14:09   Because if someone comes around offering them like,

00:14:11   10 times what they're making now per year

00:14:14   in an upfront sum to buy their app,

00:14:16   and then, oh, you'll also have a nice stable job with us,

00:14:20   instead of having to rely on the ups and downs

00:14:21   of your app selling on the App Store.

00:14:23   I don't blame developers at all for taking those offers.

00:14:26   In many ways, it's like, well, you can't really say no

00:14:28   to some of these offers 'cause they're so good.

00:14:30   And the only way this is ever going to change

00:14:32   is if the economics of app development change,

00:14:35   such that it is more worthwhile for people

00:14:38   to keep their apps and not sell them

00:14:40   and not take jobs somewhere else than to do that.

00:14:44   But I don't see that happening in the near future.

00:14:46   If anything, I see things going the other direction.

00:14:49   - Just assume the workflow developers have gone to work

00:14:51   on the Mac Pro, it's a safe bet, right?

00:14:53   (laughs)

00:14:54   - No, because apparently the Mac Pro

00:14:55   has only started a week ago,

00:14:56   and they went there 10 days ago.

00:14:58   - We're getting to that, we'll get to it.

00:15:00   - Oh, my word, you guys.

00:15:02   I didn't even start my holiday party yet.

00:15:04   This is gonna be a long show for me.

00:15:05   - Probably should.

00:15:06   (upbeat music)

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00:17:04   Tell me, Jon, about a possible explanation for increased free space with APFS on 10.3,

00:17:13   if you please.

00:17:14   Continuing the streak of APFS follow-up in, what are we on, like, five shows in a row

00:17:18   now?

00:17:19   I don't know.

00:17:20   We're keeping the streak alive.

00:17:23   Some show in the past, we talked about people upgrading to iOS 10.3 and saying, "Hey, I

00:17:28   have more free space available on my iOS device now."

00:17:31   and that could have been clearing caches or just rebooting or other things related to

00:17:37   the upgrade and not related to the file system itself. I heard one theory that I thought

00:17:40   was worth pondering and it has to do with APFS space sharing. I doubt you guys remember

00:17:48   what that is because I think your eyes go out whenever we want to talk about APFS.

00:17:51   But…

00:17:52   - Yup, I do.

00:17:53   - Hey!

00:17:54   - It's basically copy on write, right?

00:17:55   - No, no. That's one of the features, but the thing they refer to as space sharing is

00:17:59   where…

00:18:00   a thing where you can have two different partitions that both kind of share some space and so

00:18:04   it's kind of like whoever fills it first gets to keep it?

00:18:07   Exactly. So you got a 1 gig disk and you could put two partitions on it. You can put two

00:18:11   1 gig partitions on it. You're like, "How can you put two 1 gig partitions on a 1 gig

00:18:14   disk? Can't you put two partitions that are like 500 and 500 and 250 or 750? How can you

00:18:20   have two 1 gig partitions? That makes no sense." That's exactly how space sharing works. I

00:18:24   forget what the terms are. They call it a container or something and within the container

00:18:27   you can have separate volumes and they share that space.

00:18:30   And like Marco said, whoever fills it first wins, right?

00:18:33   And that produces weird results for saying how much free space you have.

00:18:38   Anyway, so this theory goes that iOS has, I don't know if this is true, maybe Marco does.

00:18:43   Although I've heard it before, that it has two places where it puts stuff.

00:18:47   One is sort of the OS partition and one is the user space partition

00:18:51   and they are separate from each other.

00:18:52   Does that sound familiar, Marco?

00:18:54   >> Honestly, I've never looked that low level at the OS.

00:18:56   That's a question for Steve Trout and Smith, not me.

00:18:59   - Yeah, anyway, the idea is that, yeah,

00:19:02   there's that arrangement that has been there for a while,

00:19:03   but with APFS and space sharing,

00:19:06   it changes the way free space is reported

00:19:09   and that the increase in free space you're seeing

00:19:11   is related to that.

00:19:12   Now, I tried to think through this and say,

00:19:13   well, all right, how does that work exactly?

00:19:15   What would that do?

00:19:16   And what, you know, I have in the notes here,

00:19:18   experiments required, unfortunately,

00:19:20   because we just recorded two days ago,

00:19:21   I have not done these experiments,

00:19:22   But changing the way space is both shared and reported with the file system could possibly

00:19:28   account for discrepancies in what is reported in the OS.

00:19:32   You would think that Apple would work this out, but in that example I just gave, what

00:19:37   is the right thing to do?

00:19:39   If you have two 1 gig partitions on a 1 gig disk and you ask one of them how much free

00:19:43   space, it's going to say, "I have 1 gig available."

00:19:45   And you ask the other one, it's going to say, "I have 1 gig available."

00:19:47   And that's kind of the truth, because there's nothing in the disk that both technically

00:19:51   do have 1 gig available, but if they were to both start filling really fast, you're

00:19:55   not going to fit 1 gig into each one of those things.

00:19:57   So now you have like smart-ass file systems now, like well technically I have 1 gig available.

00:20:02   I didn't lie to you.

00:20:03   Right, you could put 1 gig in V as long as you put nothing in any of the other partitions

00:20:07   that are sharing the same space.

00:20:09   Yeah.

00:20:10   Anyway, I really, you know, I wish I had more information to provide, but I just wanted

00:20:14   to bring up space sharing to remind people that space sharing in APFS is a thing, and

00:20:17   it's weird, and this is one of those things where it's difficult from user interface

00:20:21   perspective to determine what is the right thing to do. It's not like, "Oh, you just

00:20:24   need to update your operating system to report, to understand APFS and report the right thing."

00:20:29   People's mental model of how space works on disks does not match how APFS file, you know,

00:20:34   space sharing works. So I don't know what they're going to do on Mac OS. iOS, you don't,

00:20:38   this doesn't manifest in any way that you can see except perhaps in this free space

00:20:41   thing. But further news as events warrant, maybe next week I will have some experiments

00:20:46   and next week is actually two weeks from now.

00:20:48   (laughing)

00:20:51   - Oh goodness, all right, fair enough.

00:20:53   Can we talk about t-shirts?

00:20:55   Because we've had a little bit of ajida

00:20:58   with our t-shirt rollout this year.

00:21:00   So you guys have been generous enough

00:21:03   to spend most of your time doing this.

00:21:06   I have been completely swamped

00:21:07   in all aspects of life this week.

00:21:09   So take me through the pain and suffering

00:21:12   that you've gone through to bring t-shirts

00:21:14   to our lovely listeners.

00:21:15   I don't want to go through the pain and suffering, but I do want to say that as usual, every

00:21:19   time we do a t-shirt launch there's something that's weird or wrong and odd about it and

00:21:23   we work it out.

00:21:24   This time it was mostly about size availability, where as far as we're able to determine, we

00:21:30   had no visibility into what sizes will be available until after we launch it.

00:21:35   And then when we launch it, you can go to the size pop-up menu, like I picked the shirk

00:21:40   that I want, now I need to pick my size.

00:21:42   And you will see all the sizes listed, all the sizes that we could see before launch.

00:21:45   We can see this shirt is available from extra small to 3XL, right?

00:21:49   And then we launch it and you go to the shirt and you see that pop-up menu with those sizes

00:21:53   in it, but only two of them would be selectable.

00:21:55   Like, usually extra small and some other weird size.

00:21:58   Like, none of the common sizes would be available to you.

00:22:01   And that's bad.

00:22:02   We want the shirts to be available in all sizes.

00:22:04   So what we had to do for a lot of the shirts is sort of delete or end the campaigns, which

00:22:10   by the way, some people bought shirts in those campaigns and my understanding is they will

00:22:13   get delivered.

00:22:14   weird that you you were the one of the two or three lucky people who got that shirt before

00:22:17   we frantically deleted it. And your shirt might be titled ATP shirt delete me in the

00:22:21   emails that you get about it. Yeah, if you get an email and it says delete me that's

00:22:25   us trying to keep track of which ones are the old bad ones and which ones are the new

00:22:29   good ones and anyway and we replaced them with identical looking shirts but with shirts

00:22:34   from a different vendor who had stock in all sizes and we've been working on that working

00:22:39   with Teespring to get more sizes available and recreating them and so on and so forth.

00:22:43   All this is to say that if you tried to buy a shirt, because you heard the show last week

00:22:48   or whenever, and you went there and you couldn't find the shirt in the size you wanted, or

00:22:53   the shirt wasn't available in any sizes, which was true in some cases, like the purple one

00:22:56   that I really love, was literally available in zero sizes.

00:22:59   Like you could, no one could order it because you could not select any sizes at all.

00:23:03   It would let you hit buy now, and then it said please pick your size, and they were

00:23:05   all disabled.

00:23:07   So that's fixed, you can get your purple shirts now.

00:23:10   We added a few shirts to be larger sizes, because some of the other shirts only went

00:23:13   up to 2XL and now we have 3XL and I think up to 5XL on the European one.

00:23:20   And also, finally, Teespring has told us that as stock comes in for different sizes and

00:23:26   different colors, those sizes will become available.

00:23:29   So technically, if you just want to wait and check back next week or something, even if

00:23:35   the size isn't available right now, maybe it will become available.

00:23:38   So we apologize for this.

00:23:39   It's difficult.

00:23:40   We'll try to do better next year.

00:23:43   As always, every year we have to have something.

00:23:45   Last year it was really expensive shipping outside the US.

00:23:47   This year we do not have super duper expensive shipping outside the US, which is good, but

00:23:51   we have some size issues.

00:23:53   So thank you to everybody who's bought shirts and good luck out there.

00:23:57   Yeah, you know, last year we had to apologize for the expensive international shipping and

00:24:02   this year we're having to apologize for some of these operational issues.

00:24:05   We are sorry that we have to deal with this and you have to deal with this.

00:24:09   The reality is that printing and shipping shirts

00:24:12   all over the world is complicated.

00:24:14   Every vendor who does it has different trade-offs.

00:24:19   We've now tried two of the major vendors

00:24:21   and each one has strengths and weaknesses.

00:24:24   We've chosen a different set of trade-offs

00:24:26   this year's haul, really.

00:24:28   But we have not yet found a perfect solution

00:24:30   and we hope in the future that one materializes

00:24:32   or that we can tweak things a little bit better.

00:24:35   But in the meantime, we're sorry.

00:24:36   Please buy our shirts now, thank you.

00:24:38   One more thing we are thinking about, this has not yet happened, but the thing that may happen is

00:24:44   that you may get your shirts earlier than you would expect. We had set all these things to be

00:24:47   like a time-limited campaign that we're going to end about 20 days from now. We're still going to

00:24:51   end it. That's still going to happen. So buy your shirts because we're going to end this thing,

00:24:54   right? But during the time that it is running, there is some potential, not a sure thing,

00:24:59   that your shirts could ship like shortly after you order them instead of having everybody wait

00:25:04   till the end of the 20 days and then all the shirts go out at once. And the reason we're

00:25:07   we're thinking about that is it it gives you more time to hopefully get your shirt in time for

00:25:11   WWDC if you're coming or so you don't have to wait so long or if there are issues with it, you know anyway

00:25:16   That's why we're thinking about that and that may be a thing

00:25:18   So if your shirt suddenly arrives and you didn't expect it for 20 days, don't be surprised

00:25:22   so

00:25:24   Apple's

00:25:25   Clips app came out today and I think we should spend a lot of time talking about that because it's my turn to talk about

00:25:31   Something that I want to talk about didn't I put that in there way way down below all this cool new Mac Pro stuff

00:25:37   Well, guess what, buddy? It just got escalated. And actually, I don't have too much to say,

00:25:42   if I'm really honest with you, so this is only going to take a moment. But

00:25:45   clips came out today. I played with it very, very, very briefly. And it's pretty cool. I like the,

00:25:52   I don't know what the official term for it is, but the "transcribe what you're saying as you're

00:25:58   saying it" feature. So you can turn on a, like, text mode or a, it's a little speech bubble.

00:26:06   And as you record, your speech will appear on screen.

00:26:11   So you can hold to record, and then as you talk,

00:26:15   you can make it show the words that you're speaking.

00:26:19   I just did that as I was saying those words,

00:26:23   and it says "Honda Accord" instead of "Hold While You Record."

00:26:27   So this is already going well.

00:26:28   - Yeah, I mean, automated transcription is still

00:26:32   a very, very long way away from being good reliably.

00:26:37   Like even, you know, we can criticize Apple

00:26:40   for like not being good at some of these things sometimes,

00:26:42   but nobody can do this very well yet.

00:26:44   You know, even like the fancy Google algorithms

00:26:47   that do YouTube transcription and everything,

00:26:49   like even they are pretty bad at this.

00:26:52   So it's gonna be a fun little thing finding like,

00:26:55   you know, funny mistranslations

00:26:56   in people's videos sometimes.

00:26:58   And otherwise, it's a cool idea,

00:27:00   It's a cool use of technology, but yeah,

00:27:03   it's gonna be pretty imperfect for possibly ever,

00:27:07   if not a long time.

00:27:08   - It's gonna make people enunciate,

00:27:09   that's what it's gonna do.

00:27:10   I tried that feature as well because I was excited

00:27:12   to see if I could do the thing that I talked about

00:27:15   when we first talked about clips,

00:27:16   which is make the words appear over the video

00:27:20   with a cadence, with a purpose,

00:27:22   like say things in a certain way

00:27:23   and emphasize certain things

00:27:24   to have the words appear with that rhythm.

00:27:26   And the lag seemed to be so big, I'm not quite sure why,

00:27:29   whether it's the, you know, rendering it on top of the video versus understanding the

00:27:33   speech or whatever.

00:27:34   But the lag was so much worse than, for example, when you talk to Google Now or whatever the

00:27:39   hell they call it, where it shows you your words in real time, or even Siri these days.

00:27:43   But Google Now was the first one I remember being startled by exactly how fast the words

00:27:47   were appearing as I spoke them, that there wasn't a delay, that it wasn't like, "Let

00:27:50   me just think about what you just said and make it appear," that it seemed to follow

00:27:53   my cadence.

00:27:54   And clips lags.

00:27:56   I found it difficult even when trying to emphasize in a very exaggerated rhythm to get that rhythm

00:28:02   to manifest in the video.

00:28:04   So oh well, the people using real video editors can continue to dominate in the perfect timing

00:28:10   of their word appearances and transitions.

00:28:12   But in the meantime, yeah, it is a cool app and the effects are really neat and it makes

00:28:16   it so easy to do something.

00:28:18   You don't need any expertise in any kind of video editing or production.

00:28:21   You just need to be able to tap things on the screen and hold your finger on a giant

00:28:24   red button and you will make cool videos.

00:28:27   Yeah, like I said, I only played with it briefly but really, really impressed with what I've

00:28:31   seen so far.

00:28:33   I also really like—and I think this was covered on Connected recently, I forget where

00:28:39   I heard it—but rather than Apple trying to make their own social network or do something

00:28:45   ridiculous like that, they're actually just embracing other social networks.

00:28:50   So this is an app to pipe your video into other places, which I think is really smart.

00:28:56   Did you just say you heard that on connected?

00:28:58   Did we talk about it?

00:28:59   It's fine.

00:29:00   It's fine.

00:29:01   It's all a mess.

00:29:02   It's like you're on the show with me when I said that same thing, but it's fine.

00:29:05   You can cite connected.

00:29:06   It's all a blur, man.

00:29:07   Did connected invent follow-up, Casey?

00:29:08   Yeah, you know, they did.

00:29:09   It's weird.

00:29:10   We appropriated it, but it was all them.

00:29:11   I actually heard that from somebody.

00:29:12   I wasn't connected.

00:29:13   It was, what was it, Bonanza that did the thing with like the echo and reverb?

00:29:17   Good God.

00:29:18   No, that was either the prompt or connected.

00:29:20   All right, well anyway, someone wrote me to say, "I totally thought they invented it because they

00:29:24   had a cool sound effect." Anyway, they've been set straight.

00:29:28   Oh, good.

00:29:30   So anyhow, my very brief playing with this app, I definitely like it, although it confirmed to

00:29:37   some degree that I'm an old man because it took me a minute to realize how to share a video that

00:29:43   I created because it didn't it wasn't obvious to me that in the like creation screen is

00:29:50   where you're doing all your modifications and edits and whatnot and from what I can

00:29:55   tell you have to back out to your like library screen in order to actually share something

00:30:00   which I thought was a little peculiar but you know whatever. But either way I in my

00:30:05   very brief playing with it I really really like it and I don't know that I'll use it

00:30:10   that much? But it was really cool. The only complaint I have about it, which actually is

00:30:15   probably for the best, is that I kind of wish it wasn't just square. So as an example, I had recorded

00:30:21   a video of myself and Declan very quickly, and I wanted to share it as an Instagram story.

00:30:29   And when I sucked it into Instagram, it looked awful. And it was like only the center of the

00:30:36   video and it took me a second to realize, oh, it's scaling it because the video is square,

00:30:43   but Instagram stories annoyingly are portrait only, and so it's just doing the best it can,

00:30:48   but that ruined my video.

00:30:49   And so that was a little frustrating, but to be honest, it's probably for the best that

00:30:57   it is square because it's kind of generic.

00:30:59   I also didn't see a way to share to Twitter, but that again could be user error and I only

00:31:02   looked for a moment.

00:31:04   But all in all, I definitely like it and I think it's pretty good.

00:31:06   >> But you gotta fix that, the Instagram story thing.

00:31:08   That's not a minor issue.

00:31:09   Because like I said, the whole point of this is to share another network.

00:31:13   And yeah, Instagram Stories does the particular format.

00:31:15   The app needs to support that in some way.

00:31:19   You can leave the defaults as whatever they are, but someone who wants to use this app

00:31:23   primarily as a way to do Instagram Stories, they're just not gonna do it.

00:31:28   It just won't feel right to not be able to shoot it in the same aspect ratio.

00:31:32   So get on that, Clipstein.

00:31:35   Alright, uh, let's see what else has happened recently.

00:31:38   No, that was your one.

00:31:40   You get your one.

00:31:41   That, oh, jeez, Dad!

00:31:43   Wow.

00:31:44   That's how it is?

00:31:45   Alright, fine, let me go pass out.

00:31:47   Alright, kids, have fun.

00:31:48   I'll see you next week.

00:31:49   Make a drink.

00:31:50   I can't, it's all the way downstairs.

00:31:52   There's non-Mac Pro stuff.

00:31:54   We'll clear the Mac Pro eventually and come out the other side.

00:31:57   What, in 2019?

00:31:59   the sunlight where we'll discuss patents and NVIDIA drivers and all sorts of other

00:32:05   things.

00:32:06   So I think we'll make it.

00:32:07   Okay, I'll see you guys next week.

00:32:08   So this is "more Mac Pro!"

00:32:11   The show notes say.

00:32:12   I'm pretty sure I didn't do that.

00:32:14   You know I didn't do it.

00:32:15   I think I put the word "more" in there.

00:32:18   The first bit is a rumor that I don't know how much, you know, worth to attach to, but

00:32:26   It is a rumor and it has been reblogged, as we used to say, all over the place, which

00:32:31   does not make it any more true.

00:32:34   But anyway, it's from OS News, OSNews.com, and it is a rumor cited to people and sources

00:32:42   who know their stuff.

00:32:44   So there's your source.

00:32:45   That instills confidence.

00:32:48   That definitely means it's true.

00:32:50   That's the way rumors should be cited because that again matches the reliability.

00:32:59   This says the Mac Pro is in limbo in size Apple.

00:33:01   The decision to go ahead and develop a modular Mac Pro replacement seems to have been made

00:33:06   only in recent months with development starting only a few weeks ago.

00:33:10   So last year we were talking about oh this, you know, seems like it must have happened

00:33:14   at the earliest during the last 12 months, probably during the last six months.

00:33:18   This one says, "In recent months, the decision was made, and development started only a few

00:33:22   weeks ago."

00:33:23   So that is the tightest timeline I have seen even suggested.

00:33:27   And then it goes on to say, "Why did Apple do this?

00:33:29   Why did Apple make a 180 on the Mac Pro?"

00:33:33   And the reason cited is a more specific version of a thing we've talked about a lot, that

00:33:36   Apple was surprised by the reaction of the MacBook Pro with Touch Bar, which you've heard

00:33:41   from many different places in a vague sort of, "Apple thought that everyone was going

00:33:47   to love their product and the negative reaction in the press, if not in the sales numbers,

00:33:52   caught them by surprise.

00:33:53   And so this adds some more detail to that with some more vaguely sourced rumors.

00:34:01   After it says, "After announcement of the new MacBook Pro with touch bar, orders for

00:34:05   refurbished old MacBook Pros supposedly went through the roof.

00:34:09   And after the initial batch of reviews came out, they shot up even higher."

00:34:12   So that would be a signal that I think Apple would pay attention to.

00:34:16   hey, we've got the new MacBook Pro with Touch Bar,

00:34:18   and the refurbished version of the old one

00:34:21   goes up really high.

00:34:22   Now, to believe this, you have to A,

00:34:24   believe this is founded on anything,

00:34:25   and B, you have to believe that this is not something

00:34:27   that always happens every time a new model is introduced,

00:34:29   which I'm not entirely sure,

00:34:30   because maybe every time you introduce a new model

00:34:32   that's different from the old one,

00:34:33   people buy the refurbished runs really quickly

00:34:35   because they wanna get their last chance

00:34:36   to get the model they know and love.

00:34:39   But anyway, that is a suggestion.

00:34:40   How that would reflect on the MacBook Pro,

00:34:43   it would be just basically like,

00:34:45   We thought we knew what pros wanted,

00:34:47   but we seem to be wrong.

00:34:48   And they say similar combined with the problems

00:34:51   of the LG display and stuff like that.

00:34:53   And then finally, to add more exciting unsourced rumors

00:34:58   that will make Marco happy,

00:35:00   if he can bring himself to believe them briefly.

00:35:02   - So far I can't, go ahead.

00:35:03   - Yeah.

00:35:04   Apple is said to be exploring

00:35:05   additional retina MacBook Pro models without the touch bar.

00:35:08   Oh, wouldn't you love that?

00:35:10   So there's something for everybody

00:35:13   in this vaguely sourced rumor.

00:35:14   But, again, since people are talking about it, I do believe that the new Mac Pro decision

00:35:24   and project were very recent.

00:35:28   I'm not sure if I believe a few weeks ago, but very recent.

00:35:31   And I do believe that Apple was surprised by the press reaction to the MacBook Pro with

00:35:36   Touch bars.

00:35:37   As Apple emphasizes every time you talk to them about it, including in the transcript

00:35:40   that we cited before.

00:35:41   The new MacBook Pro with Touch Bar is incredibly popular

00:35:44   and has the most orders ever of any laptop

00:35:46   Apple has ever produced and people love it

00:35:48   and it's awesome and all the numbers are great for it.

00:35:50   But like so many other things Apple said in that transcript

00:35:53   and about the Mac Pro and everything, they may be true.

00:35:57   But if you don't update a model for a really long time,

00:36:00   some of these results fall out of it.

00:36:04   Like we're not really selling a lot of Mac Pros.

00:36:07   Should people buy them?

00:36:07   Well, you haven't updated it in years.

00:36:09   It's a self-fulfilling prophecy as we discussed before and the MacBook Pro with touch bar is the best selling model ever

00:36:15   Well again, the MacBook Pro was a little bit overdue for an update. So there's pent-up demand for it

00:36:21   And the yeah, then you have to map into like the curve like is it our max sales increasing overall

00:36:28   I think the macro Pro is a successful product for them

00:36:31   But again, I do believe that Apple was surprised by the negative reaction of some of the press about it

00:36:36   They even emphasized in the transcript by the way

00:36:39   went back to the well on the battery life of like their metrics say that the battery life for the new MacBook Pro with touchbar is

00:36:45   Better than the outgoing ones. I believe that too. You know why because the outgoing ones are old and then the new models are brand new

00:36:52   I'm sure that

00:36:53   I'm sure they factor that in and I'm sure they can tell the age and normalize for it or whatever, but it's difficult to

00:36:59   To hang your hat on a lot of the stats because everyone stat they say I'm like I hundred percent believe that but I also

00:37:05   don't have enough information to

00:37:08   to really tell whether it

00:37:10   Shows the thing you're saying that it shows what they're trying to say it shows to say the new MacBook Pro with touch bar

00:37:15   Has better battery life than our outgoing model

00:37:18   But you haven't given me enough information to believe that all you've said is

00:37:22   The stats say people are getting better better battery life out of it than the old one

00:37:25   you don't tell me whether you've controlled for the age of the machines and

00:37:28   You know, you don't tell me

00:37:30   If it's an average or usage or what the percentiles are what the histogram looks like and all sorts of other stuff as Marcos pointed

00:37:36   out many other times, you can get fantastic battery life out of these new models until

00:37:40   you do something intensive and then they tank.

00:37:42   And I bet most people don't do intensive things.

00:37:44   People aren't playing games with their laptop unplugged.

00:37:47   Because if they did, their game would be over in two and a half hours if they're lucky.

00:37:51   And that would really bring the numbers down, but most people just don't play and don't

00:37:54   do that, so that doesn't show up in the stats.

00:37:55   So anyway, I don't want to go off on that tangent, but that's where my mind went when

00:38:00   reading this weird rumor.

00:38:02   Believe it if you want to feel good for a little while.

00:38:04   - Yeah, I mean, this is not an incredibly reliable source.

00:38:08   This is not like somebody with a great track record.

00:38:11   I don't lend a lot of credibility to this, basically.

00:38:15   It lines up with some of the other things

00:38:16   that we've heard here and there, but not very strongly.

00:38:19   And honestly, for the most part, it doesn't really matter.

00:38:23   I think what matters is Apple is, at least,

00:38:27   you know, if we believe what they said,

00:38:29   and I don't think we have any reason not to,

00:38:32   They were on a bad path before.

00:38:35   They have finally recognized that,

00:38:36   and yes, they did recognize it pretty late down that path.

00:38:40   They did not recognize they were on a bad path in 2013.

00:38:43   Like, it took a lot longer than that.

00:38:46   I would guess they recognized it in 2016 sometime,

00:38:49   possibly even 2017.

00:38:51   But the fact is they are on the path to fixing it.

00:38:56   Something has clearly switched in Apple.

00:39:01   something has clearly flipped over or changed

00:39:04   to make them make this decision,

00:39:06   because before this, it was very clear

00:39:10   that they were doing things their way,

00:39:13   what they thought was right, which involved a lot of things

00:39:17   that did not serve pro users, basically.

00:39:20   It involved saying no a lot,

00:39:22   and taking a long time to do pretty much everything,

00:39:25   and ignoring a lot of product lines,

00:39:26   and to some degree, this is still what they're doing.

00:39:31   Not a lot has changed in their actual actions here.

00:39:35   I think it probably will over the next two years or so

00:39:39   as some of this stuff shakes out

00:39:41   because clearly something has changed

00:39:43   to make them do this 180 on the Mac Pro.

00:39:45   Because again, they didn't decide three years ago

00:39:50   that this design needed to be replaced

00:39:52   and it took them three years plus

00:39:54   whatever it's gonna be now to do it.

00:39:56   No, they decided three years ago

00:39:57   to stop developing the Mac Pro.

00:39:59   and they have been effectively thinking for

00:40:03   whatever time span between then and

00:40:08   within the last few months, they have thought,

00:40:10   we don't need to develop Mac Pro anymore.

00:40:12   This is a dead product line.

00:40:14   It is no longer necessary for us to do.

00:40:16   We won't do it.

00:40:17   - Well, it's not like they weren't developing it,

00:40:19   'cause that's another thing that came out in the transcript,

00:40:21   like that they further emphasized in the details

00:40:23   that they did think about upgrading this component

00:40:26   or that component.

00:40:27   I mean, they didn't say that they actually tried it out,

00:40:29   But how else would they have known that they couldn't support it?

00:40:32   One of the press people present asked them specifically, "Oh, so you..."

00:40:36   I think maybe it was Panzarinos saying, "So you were thinking like, 'Oh, well, we could

00:40:39   increase the GPU frequency by 300 megaserves, but that doesn't quite seem worth it, so we

00:40:43   won't bother updating it.'"

00:40:44   And one of the Apple people said, "Yeah, that's exactly...

00:40:48   What you said is what happened."

00:40:49   So they stopped developing it in terms of ever releasing products, but it seemed like,

00:40:55   at least in the beginning, they would love to have done a spec bump or component bump,

00:40:59   but they just couldn't do it because the design they had didn't support it.

00:41:03   What they had decided is basically, we're not going to invest in an entirely new model.

00:41:07   So if you can't update this one, and the engineers say we can't because they either tested it

00:41:10   or ran the numbers or whatever, we'll look into it again when the next round of GPUs

00:41:14   and CPUs comes out.

00:41:15   But in the meantime, no, you can't have the budget to make a new one.

00:41:19   So semantics say, does that mean stopping support or whatever?

00:41:21   But it does mean that they would have liked to have been able to offer speed bumps in

00:41:26   this one because it is embarrassing to offer the same high-end computer for multiple years

00:41:30   without making it any faster.

00:41:32   Well, I would nitpick a little about that.

00:41:35   I'm not going to go too far into it now for Casey's sake.

00:41:38   Thanks, buddy.

00:41:39   But yeah, I think they could have done more in the meantime.

00:41:43   They could have updated the CPU.

00:41:45   The CPU was thermally fine.

00:41:46   It was only the GPU thermal balance that was the issue with that design.

00:41:51   they could have updated the CPU to the same model,

00:41:54   like the equivalent models in the new families,

00:41:57   and then they could have updated the GPUs

00:41:59   to more mid-range, mid-temperature models over the years.

00:42:03   Like they didn't have to keep selling

00:42:05   three and a half year old parts.

00:42:06   Like they could have updated it

00:42:09   by using similar class parts

00:42:11   that they already used in that design.

00:42:13   It just wouldn't have been as competitive.

00:42:16   But it is even less competitive with three year old parts.

00:42:20   So they were saying they didn't think that trade-off was worth it.

00:42:22   Like yeah, the parts that would fit in there weren't better enough to warrant it.

00:42:26   Now arguably after three years, if you had merely done that thing that you never thought

00:42:29   was worth it a couple of times, then you would be farther from where you were.

00:42:32   Or if you waited until the end and done it, that's definitely arguable.

00:42:35   But at some point I think it really was so far in the back burner that they weren't even

00:42:41   entertaining updates to it.

00:42:43   But what they said in this thing was, even though we could have made incremental improvements,

00:42:48   incremental improvements didn't seem worthwhile. I guess they couldn't justify whatever it

00:42:52   would take to, you know, basically the overhead of ever doing a spec bump and making new models

00:42:56   and doing all this stuff or whatever. This is taking everything they set at face value.

00:43:00   Who knows what's actually going on and how far along they got with any kind of upgrades

00:43:05   to this thing, and at what point they were nixed, whether in the idea phase or after

00:43:09   it had been almost ready for sale. You can never tell, because all we see is what they

00:43:12   actually release.

00:43:13   - Right, but anyway, so the point I was trying to make is

00:43:16   obviously something has changed with Apple's philosophy

00:43:21   or whatever they're using to make these decisions

00:43:25   of whether to invest in certain product lines,

00:43:27   whether to update them or not,

00:43:29   because they were clearly going in one direction

00:43:31   for some time, and they are still going in that direction

00:43:34   for most of the product lines.

00:43:35   I mean, nothing has changed in the releases yet,

00:43:38   but it's pretty clear, if you look at the release schedule

00:43:41   since about 2012, everything slowed down.

00:43:45   And it seemed like they went from releasing

00:43:48   as much as they could in most of the product lines

00:43:51   to releasing as little as they could get away with.

00:43:54   And that is worrisome, and that's what we've been

00:43:57   complaining about for years.

00:43:59   And so it seems like whatever was causing that

00:44:04   to be the result, maybe a change has happened there

00:44:09   in their thinking or their decision making

00:44:11   or whatever else.

00:44:12   Something has changed to make Apple

00:44:16   flip around on the Mac Pro and on displays

00:44:19   and have this meeting and tell us what they were thinking.

00:44:23   I hope that doesn't just apply to placating the media

00:44:27   enough for the Mac Pro thing to say,

00:44:29   okay, well now Apple cares about us again in the end.

00:44:32   I hope that applies to their entire thinking about

00:44:35   all their products.

00:44:37   I'm tired of Apple seemingly thinking,

00:44:40   you know what, if we can't do something

00:44:42   incredibly innovative and awesome,

00:44:44   we're better off just doing nothing.

00:44:46   You know, I think that's the wrong approach.

00:44:49   I think they should be saying yes to things

00:44:52   that are simple updates to their products.

00:44:53   Like, it's one thing to spread yourself too thin

00:44:57   with new stuff, you know, new initiatives,

00:44:59   new entire product lines, things like that.

00:45:03   That, you could make an argument, and we have,

00:45:06   that they should be really careful with that

00:45:08   because it's a huge risk of spreading themselves too thin.

00:45:11   But it is not hard, it shouldn't,

00:45:15   if it's hard for them to update the Mac Mini

00:45:17   with the same processor line but the new version of it,

00:45:21   if that's hard, they've set that up wrong.

00:45:24   They are a huge company with tons and tons of money

00:45:27   and tons of engineering resources.

00:45:30   They should be able to do what I described last week

00:45:33   as boring updates.

00:45:35   If there's a new processor, put it in and start selling it

00:45:37   to all the products that could use it.

00:45:39   There is no reason why they need to do things

00:45:43   like what the Mac Mini is right now,

00:45:45   which is sitting around with ancient parts being neglected.

00:45:49   The last of them even made it worse than it was before.

00:45:53   There's nothing stopping them from doing a new Mac Mini

00:45:55   except high up somewhere they have decided

00:45:58   that that is not worth investing any resources into at all.

00:46:02   And I think that's a mistake.

00:46:03   maybe we'll see something like that turn around. Again, probably not, especially like the Mac

00:46:07   Mini has always been a very neglected product, but I don't think that's, that's not a good

00:46:12   excuse. Like if Apple really wants to like, to fulfill what they say they are and make

00:46:17   the best products for people that they can and only make great stuff, like they say,

00:46:21   that's what they say they do. That isn't always true, but that is what they say they do and

00:46:24   I believe that's what they want to do and that is what they want to be, then they have

00:46:29   They have to set up their product line in a way

00:46:32   that allows them, and their management structure

00:46:35   and their priorities, they have to set this up in a way

00:46:38   that allows them to not leave things

00:46:41   in complete neglect for years because

00:46:44   they aren't the most profitable product lines in the world.

00:46:48   They sell a lot of all these things, all these products.

00:46:51   We mentioned last week the 1% or whatever of max sales

00:46:55   is still like 200,000 a year and it's as many

00:46:58   the BMW X5, it is worth them, if they're going to have

00:47:02   a product line at all, I think it's worth them

00:47:05   keeping it minimally updated.

00:47:07   And what that means is not every four years

00:47:10   you make it worse.

00:47:12   What that means is you keep it updated every time you can.

00:47:16   And you don't have to do a whole new case design.

00:47:19   I feel like, last week we were discussing about how

00:47:24   Apple needs the audacity and confidence

00:47:27   to release boring products sometimes.

00:47:29   It seems like they would rather do nothing

00:47:33   and neglect something for years

00:47:35   than release something that isn't that exciting.

00:47:37   And I just think that's the wrong decision.

00:47:38   I think that they need to start thinking the other way

00:47:40   of like, that might be true for certain products,

00:47:43   I don't know, certain like mass consumer fashion

00:47:46   type of products, maybe the iPhone,

00:47:48   although that's kind of its own schedule anyway.

00:47:50   - It's not true with a watch,

00:47:51   they just gave that a speed bump.

00:47:53   - Yeah, that's true. - Looks same on the outside,

00:47:54   better stuff on the inside.

00:47:55   - Actually thicker.

00:47:57   But yeah, I feel like they need to bring

00:47:59   that same philosophy to all their products.

00:48:01   So just like, you know what,

00:48:03   when there's, like, if the Mac Mini can't be updated

00:48:07   at least every two years,

00:48:09   'cause like, you know, the stuff that goes into it

00:48:10   is updated like every year.

00:48:11   If the Mac Mini can't be updated at least every two years

00:48:13   to whatever's current for its form factor,

00:48:15   then it was badly designed and it should be redesigned.

00:48:18   And you know, maybe that's the problem with the Mac Pro too.

00:48:21   If the Mac Pro can't be updated easily,

00:48:23   then they did a horrible job designing it.

00:48:26   And so any of their products that you can say that about,

00:48:31   I feel like they need to, and maybe this is what it took,

00:48:35   they need to get some humility in the sense

00:48:37   that their designs need to be a little more humble

00:48:41   and they have to be okay releasing

00:48:43   a slightly more utilitarian version

00:48:46   of some of these products.

00:48:47   Not all of them, but some of them.

00:48:49   And then they also then have to have the confidence,

00:48:51   as I said last week, they have to have the confidence

00:48:53   that they, you know what, it's okay to release a boring Mac Pro update and a boring Mac Mini

00:48:59   update. That's okay. No one's gonna say Apple can't innovate anymore anybody's ass because

00:49:04   the Mac Mini got updated again. Like, that's--

00:49:07   I don't think that's true at all.

00:49:09   It's totally true because the thing he's talking about, speed bumps, we have a name for them

00:49:13   because they were so common. So, so common for a long time, for years and years and years.

00:49:19   This was just a thing that happened. Just like model years of cars, they would introduce

00:49:23   a model and then there would be speed bumps and then eventually there would be a new model

00:49:27   that's fancier in some way.

00:49:28   That's how Apple products work for a long time.

00:49:31   And during that time, every time there was a speed bump, nobody says, "Oh no, Apple

00:49:35   can't innovate anymore," because we understood what speed bumps were.

00:49:39   The fancy new one isn't here.

00:49:41   It's just a speed bump to the other one.

00:49:42   And people go, "Oh, this is a boring announcement.

00:49:44   It's just a speed bump."

00:49:45   But we had a word for it because it was a thing that happened routinely.

00:49:49   Little did we know that you may not, you may like, "Oh, I don't want speed bumps.

00:49:52   want a fancy new one every time. You know what's worse than speed bumps? No speed bumps.

00:49:55   Yeah, exactly. Just nothing new at all. So I think there is no PR damage of speed bumps,

00:50:03   it's just that at some point Apple decided that speed bumps weren't a thing they wanted to do.

00:50:09   And I have my own completely unverified anonymous sources who are not the ATP tipster,

00:50:14   or they could be for all we know because it's just email man, I don't know where the heck this stuff

00:50:17   comes from, who conveyed this—again, completely unsourced information—that the high-end

00:50:24   iMac was a thing that Apple's been playing for a while, so there are hopes for that to

00:50:28   have good internals.

00:50:29   We'll talk a bit more about that with more unsourced rumors later.

00:50:32   This is the Unsourced Rumors Show.

00:50:36   But the decision about the new Mac Pro and the display were made fairly recently.

00:50:40   And the summary is, neither of these products—meaning the high-end iMac and the new Mac Pro—are

00:50:45   are a good financial ROI, but there is now a recognition

00:50:48   at the senior VP and CEO level that's important

00:50:51   for the company to make them.

00:50:52   And that's what it boils down to,

00:50:53   like that I can totally imagine all these products

00:50:56   not being a good return on investment.

00:50:58   It doesn't mean that they make losses,

00:51:00   but good ROI means I put X amount in

00:51:03   and I want to get X times some large number amount out.

00:51:07   And a bad ROI, I mean, you're like,

00:51:08   "It doesn't seem like we make enough money

00:51:10   "on Speedbump Mac Minis to even bother doing that at all.

00:51:12   "What if we just don't do it?

00:51:14   "How do the sales look?"

00:51:15   It's like, "Yeah, sales are flat."

00:51:16   It's like, "Great, we just saved some money.

00:51:18   I just increased the ROI in the Mac Mini

00:51:19   by not speed bumping it."

00:51:20   And they did, they did increase the ROI in the Mac Mini.

00:51:22   And I think they can kind of get away with that

00:51:24   in the Mac Mini with a reasonable amount,

00:51:26   but like on Mac Pros,

00:51:28   what if we just don't ever update the Mac Pro

00:51:30   because engineering says it would cost a lot of money

00:51:31   and require a redesign?

00:51:32   What did the sales look like?

00:51:33   Yeah, they go down a little bit,

00:51:34   but they're about the same.

00:51:35   Great, we just increased the ROI on the Mac Pro.

00:51:38   And you know, what this fully on source rumor now conveys

00:51:43   is that even though it's not a good ROI,

00:51:46   which is a point I've been emphasizing since 2013,

00:51:49   it's important for the company

00:51:50   to make these products anyway.

00:51:52   And Apple is totally on that page now.

00:51:54   And again, another thing you can pick up

00:51:55   from the transcript is everything Marco said

00:51:57   about frequent updates.

00:51:59   That was in all the summary articles,

00:52:00   like that Apple says they wanna make a new Mac Pro

00:52:02   that can have frequent updates.

00:52:04   It is further emphasizing the transcript,

00:52:05   like further in detail emphasize that like,

00:52:08   they wanna make a Mac Pro

00:52:10   that they can make the parts inside of it better

00:52:12   on a regular basis.

00:52:13   They don't commit to doing it on any particular schedule,

00:52:16   but they emphasize, this is a thing we did wrong,

00:52:20   and we're gonna fix it by doing it right.

00:52:22   We want a machine that without redesigning the machine,

00:52:25   we can regularly and steadily and easily and cheaply

00:52:28   do those things that we used to think are boring,

00:52:31   which are called speed bumps.

00:52:32   And so, that's why we're all so happy about this

00:52:34   is because they didn't just say,

00:52:35   we're gonna make a new Mac Pro and trust us,

00:52:37   you really like it, just wait.

00:52:38   They said specific things about it

00:52:40   and the specific things they said and emphasized

00:52:42   exactly what we want. So yay Apple, let's now fast forward for two years.

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00:54:49   make your next move up.

00:54:50   Oh goodness. Do you have any other thoughts about this particular rumor?

00:54:58   I wouldn't put too much into it.

00:54:59   And the other parts of it are how Apple is said

00:55:02   to be making a non-Touch Bar 15 inch MacBook Pro option.

00:55:06   - Yeah, that's just trolling Marco.

00:55:08   - I honestly, first of all, I wanna be clear,

00:55:13   I don't hate the Touch Bar that much.

00:55:15   I would just, given the choice to get it or not get it,

00:55:18   right now I chose not get it.

00:55:20   And as I said, that's due to other factors also.

00:55:22   Like I wanted something smaller and the 13 inch

00:55:26   that comes in both touch bar and non touch bar,

00:55:28   like the non touch bar gets better battery life by a lot.

00:55:31   And battery life is very important to me right now.

00:55:34   So like, you know, it's obviously like,

00:55:38   you know, other factors go into this decision for everybody.

00:55:40   You know, there's cost considerations for a lot of people.

00:55:44   So like, I don't think there's actually that much demand

00:55:48   to make 15 inch MacBook Pros without the touch bar.

00:55:51   And I also would be incredibly surprised

00:55:55   if Apple did that for user satisfaction reasons.

00:56:00   Now, what they might do, you know,

00:56:02   there's also a lot of complaints about the pricing

00:56:04   of the new MacBook Pros 'cause it is higher.

00:56:06   So I could see them maybe offering, you know,

00:56:10   in the next update to the MacBook Pro generation,

00:56:13   whenever that comes.

00:56:14   I don't know when the ships are coming out,

00:56:16   maybe this fall or next spring, who knows?

00:56:18   But whenever that happens, it would not surprise me

00:56:21   if they made an entry level 15 inch model

00:56:24   that was maybe, you know, $19.99,

00:56:27   and that one had no discrete GPU

00:56:31   and no touch bar to hit that price point.

00:56:33   - The 15-inch escape.

00:56:34   - Yeah, basically.

00:56:36   You know, 'cause in the past, they've done that

00:56:38   with the GPU selection, which I've talked about before,

00:56:40   whereas in the past, like the retina generation

00:56:42   and everything, and even the one right before that,

00:56:45   they had the base model, which was about 2,000 bucks,

00:56:48   had only the Intel integrated GPU,

00:56:51   and you had to spend a few hundred more

00:56:52   to get one with a little bit more stuff in it

00:56:54   and the discrete GPU.

00:56:55   And it would not surprise me at all

00:56:58   to see them do the same thing here,

00:56:59   to just give it another one that is 1999,

00:57:02   so people will stop complaining about the price,

00:57:04   and has a few things cut out of it,

00:57:05   and one of them would probably be the discrete GPU,

00:57:07   and one of them might be the touch bar.

00:57:09   And that would be totally fine.

00:57:10   But that wouldn't be because, quote,

00:57:13   "Everyone hates the touch bar."

00:57:14   It would be because they wanna hit a price point.

00:57:17   - Yeah, they did also mention the transcripts.

00:57:19   People asked some questions about ports.

00:57:20   They didn't say they were going to even entertain this idea, but it was mentioned as an idea

00:57:26   that exists just like the Mac Mini is a product that exists in the lineup of having a MacBook

00:57:33   Pro with legacy ports.

00:57:38   Like the only things on the side of it wouldn't be the Thunderbolt 3 USB-C things.

00:57:42   That was brought up as a question, and Apple didn't immediately shut the door and say,

00:57:46   "We are never doing that."

00:57:48   And that's, you know, in the Apple world, it's like, wow,

00:57:50   they're entertaining the idea of possibly having

00:57:53   a MacBook Pro with different ports on the side of it.

00:57:55   Maybe an SD card slot, I don't know,

00:57:56   wouldn't hold your breath for it, but you know,

00:57:58   that's what Apple does.

00:57:59   Like they said, we make a product, we do the best we can,

00:58:01   see what people think of it, what their behavior indicates.

00:58:03   And then for the next one, you know, they said,

00:58:05   for the next one, we're gonna do better.

00:58:07   And we'll take what we've learned and, you know,

00:58:09   and Margo's suggestion sounds totally plausible,

00:58:12   both because it makes sense from a business perspective

00:58:14   and also because that's what people are telling them

00:58:16   based on this rumor of buying refurbished ones

00:58:19   or people buying the escape or whatever,

00:58:21   they'll do that to fill a market need.

00:58:22   And by the same token,

00:58:24   this is something that didn't get too much discussion

00:58:27   in the articles that was mentioned a few times.

00:58:29   Apple said, and we've been hearing about for a while,

00:58:32   that they have been going out to pro users,

00:58:35   reaching out to just regular people like,

00:58:36   "Hey, you use our products in a pro capacity.

00:58:38   "Tell us about it," for a long time now,

00:58:41   leading up to this Mac Pro announcement.

00:58:42   And they do this stuff like that all the time.

00:58:43   So just knowing that they're gonna make a new Mac,

00:58:46   They do that all the time.

00:58:47   They say even when you just go to the Apple store

00:58:49   or buy a new Mac or get a new iPhone,

00:58:50   sometimes they send you a random survey about it or whatever,

00:58:52   but they were going to people and saying,

00:58:54   "Tell us how you use our Pro hardware.

00:58:55   What do you like about it?

00:58:56   What do you not like about it?

00:58:57   What things are important to you?

00:58:58   What things are not important to you?"

00:59:00   To try to gauge whether they should make a new Mac Pro

00:59:03   and the decision they can't do is yes, they should.

00:59:05   And probably like,

00:59:06   what do you think about the new MacBook Pros

00:59:08   and if we made a new one,

00:59:10   what would you wanna see in it and stuff like that.

00:59:12   So they're doing their job.

00:59:14   They're doing what they're supposed to be doing

00:59:16   hopefully we'll see this feedback loop closed with the next round of MacBook

00:59:21   Pros. And I mean I don't want to call like if the next round of MacBook Pros

00:59:26   has the 15-inch escape and has an SD card slot and has better batteries that

00:59:33   they supposedly couldn't fit in this one for some reason I forget if this is the

00:59:36   model or it was another one that rumor was about. Anyway if they come out with

00:59:40   that it doesn't mean that they made a terrible mistake and have fixed it it

00:59:43   just means they're making their products better over time that's what they always

00:59:45   But, for the Mac Pro, I was thinking that this Mac Pro that comes out, that in theory

00:59:51   I will buy, is elevated, is worthy of being elevated to the holder of the coveted title

01:00:02   of Apology Mac Pro, right alongside the Apology Mouse.

01:00:06   People don't remember the Apology Mouse is the mouse Apple released with much fanfare

01:00:10   after subjecting the world to the completely circular puck-based mouse on the original

01:00:14   iMac and they apologized for that by making a mouse that was not completely circular and

01:00:19   therefore easier to align and it was under everybody's seat at a Macworld Expo keynote

01:00:25   and I got one because I was there and the mouse wasn't under your seat it was like a

01:00:29   little card and you go to the back of the room and give someone a card and they give

01:00:31   you an apology mouse and I still have it and it's awesome and I would love an apology Mac

01:00:36   Pro and it looks like I'm gonna get one.

01:00:38   Well you're going to have one released are you going to buy one?

01:00:41   Yeah, yeah, yeah. Colloquially get one. It's not going to be a card under my seat at WWDC

01:00:46   that says I get a free one, but yeah. Oh, and I'm on the topic of, by the way, I'm skipping

01:00:51   a bunch of the MacPro, more MacPro topic for you, Casey.

01:00:55   Yes! I mean, oh, that's too bad.

01:00:59   One thing I want to talk about is this from, we want to hit every single person who was

01:01:02   in that meeting, because there's always like five journalists. This is from Lance Olanoff

01:01:06   at Mashable. I quoted this because I didn't have the transcript at the time, but let's

01:01:10   Let's give him credit, he reported and I pulled it out.

01:01:14   When I asked if Apple might consider a touchscreen Mac, Schiller shook his head and said no.

01:01:19   He told me it's simply not a big request for Mac Pro customers.

01:01:22   We're talking to them and the things they're most interested in, this doesn't even register

01:01:26   he added.

01:01:27   You can see the full quotes in the transcript if you're interested, but it was basically

01:01:29   he just like cut them off and like said no, no touchscreen Mac.

01:01:33   This is not something customers interested in.

01:01:35   How they know what customers are interested in is because they're talking to them, right?

01:01:38   This is a great example of, I feel like if I was in that meeting, I mean, I don't know,

01:01:43   it's hard to say what you would do when you're in these meetings, but in a relaxed environment

01:01:47   where I didn't feel pressure to be well behaved, I would say, "But come on, guys, you know

01:01:53   you can't just ask customers what they want.

01:01:55   You have to do that, but customers don't always know what they want until you show them.

01:02:00   No customer would have ever requested the iPhone, but guess what?

01:02:02   When you made it, they're like, "Yes, that."

01:02:03   If you asked them what they wanted, they would have been like a fancier version of whatever

01:02:06   Nokia smartphone they had right now, right? I think Mac Pro customers aren't requesting

01:02:13   a touchscreen Mac, but if it turns out that the Surface Studio is a good idea that has

01:02:18   legs, by the time your customers are requesting it, it's way too late because of the things

01:02:25   you would have to do to your OS or to your app store economy, depending on whether you're

01:02:30   trying to make a Mac into that or make an iOS device into that, will take you a long

01:02:34   time. So Apple should not be asking its customers, like, you know, not be deciding just because

01:02:40   its customers don't want one now, that it's not a good idea. Clearly Apple thinks it's

01:02:44   still not a good idea. And I'm sure they've experimented with it. I'm sure they've used

01:02:47   the Surface Studio Pro. They even, they even dumped on the Surface Studio's like a drawing

01:02:52   experience. Like they basically said the iPad Pro has a better drawing experience. I'm assuming

01:02:56   they mean more responsive and less parallax because this, you know, like, which is true.

01:03:00   Right, it's totally true, but I, you know, they may be right that this is not, uh, that the

01:03:06   Surface Studio idea doesn't have legs in the design community, but the reason I would cite for that

01:03:12   is not that the first iteration of this has flaws versus some existing tech, because that's just

01:03:16   like a, you know, a PR whatever, like the first version of everything is wonky, right? Um, you

01:03:22   know, the first Mac was, was Ramstar, the first iPhone, like didn't even shoot video, right? You

01:03:26   So you can't cite that, right?

01:03:29   That doesn't mean that.

01:03:29   And you also can't cite,

01:03:30   oh, our customers aren't asking this.

01:03:32   Of course they're not asking for it.

01:03:33   They're never gonna ask for the visionary next big thing

01:03:35   'cause they don't know they want it yet.

01:03:36   But if the server studio starts getting penetration

01:03:38   and starts being used by more people,

01:03:41   eventually they will be saying,

01:03:42   hey, Apple, why don't you have something like this?

01:03:43   And maybe Apple will say, take this humongous iPad Pro

01:03:46   and try to find Pro apps for it or something.

01:03:48   So anyway, that bothered me a little bit

01:03:50   because I don't like to say no,

01:03:53   and then you're not thinking about it, it's fine.

01:03:54   But to cite those reasons,

01:03:55   Like those are not reasons that should be convincing

01:04:00   to you internally.

01:04:01   If there are reasons you wanna parrot back to the press

01:04:03   to give explanations, that's fine.

01:04:04   But I really hope internally, like there's that fear I get,

01:04:08   especially when you hear people who are good at talking

01:04:10   to the press at Apple, the fear I get

01:04:12   that they believe their own hype,

01:04:15   that the reasons they give externally for things

01:04:17   are also the reasons they use internally

01:04:19   to justify their decisions,

01:04:20   which I sincerely hope is not the case

01:04:22   because so many of the reasons are bad reasons.

01:04:24   like they're Apple 101 bad reasons.

01:04:29   The whole history of Apple shows that this is not how you should be making decisions,

01:04:32   because every success you had can, you know, defy these.

01:04:35   Or even just plain old Ed Catmull creativity and success hides problem reasons or whatever.

01:04:40   It's fine to tell them to other people, but I really hope you don't believe, because this

01:04:44   first server studio has technical flaws, that that's why it's a terrible idea.

01:04:49   If you're going to say, "We've tried the idea internally and we found out that it's terrible,"

01:04:52   which they have said in the past.

01:04:54   That at least I give more credence to

01:04:55   because it shows you are seriously pursuing the idea.

01:04:58   But anyway, that bothered me.

01:05:00   I still think the server studio is an idea

01:05:02   that has some potential.

01:05:03   Some artists also agree.

01:05:05   I just hope Apple doesn't get caught flat-footed

01:05:10   on this one because again, it's not like,

01:05:11   oh, well, so what?

01:05:12   If it becomes successful, Apple can make one.

01:05:13   They have a serious software and platform thing to resolve

01:05:15   to ever ship anything like that.

01:05:17   They have to decide whether it's a Mac or an iPad

01:05:20   and either decision they make,

01:05:21   a bunch of other software and ecosystem things

01:05:22   they have to do to make that work.

01:05:25   - Yeah, I mean, everyone I've known

01:05:27   who has bought a server studio or used one,

01:05:30   and granted, this is not a large group of people,

01:05:32   but it's people on Twitter and stuff,

01:05:34   the responses are pretty consistent,

01:05:37   which is, this is really cool,

01:05:40   there's really something to this, but Windows sucks.

01:05:43   Like, we all know that already,

01:05:45   like this is no surprise to anybody listening to this show

01:05:47   in all likelihood, but, you know,

01:05:50   It's clearly like, you know, there's something here.

01:05:54   And I think if Apple chose to do something with that,

01:05:58   they might be able to do a really good job with it.

01:06:00   I mean, there would be certain limitations.

01:06:03   Every computer input method has weird limitations to it.

01:06:08   The iPad has problems with text entry,

01:06:12   unless you do keyboards, but that's a weird hack.

01:06:15   Computers have problems with direct interaction

01:06:18   and manipulation.

01:06:19   There's all sorts, like everything you do

01:06:21   is gonna be imperfect, but I think the model

01:06:25   for modern computing and devices in the last decade

01:06:29   has really just been like, well, you know what?

01:06:30   We're gonna embrace that we can't get this perfect

01:06:34   and we're going to make things anyway, the best we can,

01:06:37   that take advantage of what they are

01:06:39   and leave what they aren't to other devices.

01:06:42   'Cause if you weren't willing to do things that way,

01:06:46   tablets wouldn't exist, because tablets are

01:06:48   this kind of weird hybrid that is good at certain things

01:06:52   computers are good at, terrible at other things

01:06:54   computers are good at, but they can do things

01:06:57   that computers can't, you know?

01:06:58   So like, when Apple says like, oh, we've tried this

01:07:01   and it doesn't work, it can't be done,

01:07:03   there's lots of problems or whatever,

01:07:05   you could have said the same thing about tablets in 2009.

01:07:08   But they made the iPad anyway.

01:07:10   They found like a slot for it to fit

01:07:15   in the way people use things.

01:07:17   There were things that it was really good at,

01:07:19   and that made it worth doing,

01:07:21   despite all the downsides of tablets.

01:07:24   And those downsides are still there today,

01:07:26   but it doesn't matter, 'cause the things that it's good at,

01:07:28   it's really good at for certain people.

01:07:30   And so any kind of touch or pen, Mac hybrid,

01:07:33   might be the same thing.

01:07:37   It might be like, you know, this is kind of weird

01:07:39   for these reasons over here,

01:07:41   but it's really good at these things.

01:07:43   And I think the Surface Studio's slight success

01:07:47   among some artists and stuff shows that to be the case.

01:07:51   That drawing on Windows is weird.

01:07:54   You know, using a pen and touch on this giant

01:07:58   drafting table form factor PC, running a PC OS,

01:08:03   is weird and does have downsides.

01:08:05   But it also has really cool upsides.

01:08:08   So I think there might be something there

01:08:10   and I think it would be unfortunate

01:08:15   if there was something there and Apple wasn't able to

01:08:19   or wasn't willing to find it and deliver it

01:08:22   because they either are making bad assumptions

01:08:27   or that they aren't willing to tackle

01:08:29   the software integration cost that would result

01:08:33   in doing this kind of Mac iOS touch kind of hybrid OS.

01:08:38   'cause those aren't small problems,

01:08:40   you know, those are big problems.

01:08:42   But I do think it would be kind of a shame

01:08:43   if there was really a product here to be had

01:08:46   that could be really useful to some people

01:08:47   and that we weren't ever gonna get it

01:08:49   because of these other issues, you know?

01:08:52   That being said, one of the other things

01:08:54   I'm concerned about is it does kind of seem like

01:08:59   at an increasing pace, Apple is being surprised

01:09:04   by customer reactions to what they do.

01:09:07   And that's a little concerning.

01:09:10   Like we keep, first like when,

01:09:13   with the 2016 MacBook Pros, those came out

01:09:16   and were really met with a lot of ambivalence from people

01:09:20   and a lot of criticism and a lot of anger

01:09:23   that they weren't certain other things.

01:09:25   And Apple was, allegedly, they were like shocked by this.

01:09:29   They were like, we thought this was,

01:09:31   and same thing with Touch Bar,

01:09:32   like wow, we thought this was amazing.

01:09:34   It seems like it's actually not being well received.

01:09:36   what, how did this possibly happen?

01:09:38   Why is this so different from what we expected?

01:09:40   And similar with the Mac Pro, you know,

01:09:42   it turns out that if you kill your pro hardware line

01:09:45   slowly over years with, you know, neglect after releasing

01:09:49   an already polarizing product,

01:09:51   then it turns out people get mad who like the old thing

01:09:54   or wanted the current thing to stay current.

01:09:56   And they seem greatly surprised by that as well.

01:09:59   - Oh, that reminds me of something else

01:10:01   that I forgot to address there on that exact topic of,

01:10:03   hey, you know, what happens if you don't

01:10:05   Your your Mac Pro for real time one of the things they cited in this very strange lead-up that I think a few of the journals

01:10:10   Who were there noted is very strange lead-up to this announcement at this meeting was let me tell you how few people

01:10:15   Use the Mac Pro and let me tell you how many pros use other products how many pros use MacBook pros?

01:10:23   I think I flubbed that let me tell you how many people

01:10:27   Do not use the Mac Pro and instead right use iMacs or MacBook pros, right?

01:10:32   That was their whole intro if you read the transcript it was all about that, right?

01:10:35   It's like and this is a thing where they're going to announce. Guess what? We're making a new Mac Pro

01:10:39   If you had just heard the intro

01:10:42   It's like this is leading up to them telling us why they don't need to have a Mac Pro anymore because they're saying

01:10:45   Look at all these pros and we're defining pros as someone who uses a pro app at least once a week or someone who uses

01:10:51   It every few weeks and they just all you know

01:10:53   The number one piece of hardware used by our pros is guess what the MacBook Pro the number two piece of hardware you buy our pro

01:10:59   is guess what the iMac right and a distant third is this Mac Pro that's

01:11:03   such a small percentage all that I hundred percent believe but if you don't

01:11:08   update the Mac Pro for three years of course they're gonna flee elsewhere of

01:11:12   course they're gonna start buying iMacs and Macs but what choice do they have

01:11:16   what choice like and again I totally understand from a PR perspective this is

01:11:21   this is the line this is the move I just sincerely hope that internally that they

01:11:26   that they have, they are clearer eyed about all this.

01:11:29   And you can't tell, they're not gonna tell you

01:11:30   what they talk about in their boardrooms.

01:11:32   What do they put up in their slides?

01:11:33   And I really believe they are clear eyed

01:11:34   because remember they had like a leak of the like slideshow

01:11:37   for many years ago.

01:11:39   - They put the Samsung thing about it,

01:11:40   like we don't have bigger phones and customers want them.

01:11:43   - Yeah, right, we do not have what customers want.

01:11:45   We need to make a bigger phone.

01:11:46   - Yeah, yeah.

01:11:47   - That's how you talk to yourself internally

01:11:49   in a healthy way and I'm sure they do,

01:11:51   but like it's when you only get the external,

01:11:53   like the, you know, the party line of like,

01:11:55   here's what we have to tell you.

01:11:57   It makes me worry sometimes because it's just so hard.

01:12:01   Like they'll never tell you

01:12:03   what they tell themselves internally.

01:12:05   And you just worry that they believe in their own hype

01:12:07   because they are so consistent and disciplined

01:12:09   with their message to the outside world.

01:12:10   And because they choose to offer up these things like this

01:12:13   that are just like instantly refutable.

01:12:15   Like, oh, people who are moving to iMacs and MacBook Pros.

01:12:19   Like, well, duh, like why even tell us that?

01:12:22   Aren't we all smart here?

01:12:23   Of course they're moving.

01:12:24   Like, what else are they gonna do?

01:12:26   I guess they could go to Windows as the other choice, right?

01:12:28   Which is also happening, by the way,

01:12:29   and you're not gonna tell us about that.

01:12:30   So, anyway, sorry to derail there.

01:12:34   - Yeah, anyway, so all that is to say

01:12:37   that it certainly has seemed in recent times

01:12:41   that Apple seems to be increasingly surprised

01:12:44   that people don't universally love

01:12:46   what they put out there.

01:12:48   And that concerns me, and I hope,

01:12:51   In whatever has kind of flipped around or changed

01:12:55   that has caused them to decide to do the Mac Pro again

01:12:58   and to start really serving pros well, hopefully, again,

01:13:02   whatever has changed to cause that,

01:13:05   I hope it has also fixed whatever was causing them

01:13:09   to put out products with a very different internal impression

01:13:14   of what was going to happen or how they were gonna be

01:13:18   received than what the public actually delivered.

01:13:20   'cause that is worrisome.

01:13:22   Apple should not be that caught off guard

01:13:26   by their reactions to their products.

01:13:28   Apple is really good most of the time at product design.

01:13:33   They have a huge history doing it very well.

01:13:35   The track record is very, very good.

01:13:37   They have incredible talent within the company.

01:13:40   If they're gonna do something like the Apple TV remote

01:13:44   that is incredibly bad, just terrible.

01:13:48   - Good thing they update the Apple TV every year.

01:13:50   So we won't have to deal with that bad remote

01:13:52   for a long time, right?

01:13:53   - Yeah, to get something like that out into the world,

01:13:57   there are people inside of the company who are smart enough

01:14:00   and clear-headed enough to look at that and say,

01:14:03   you know what, this is kind of a bad idea and here's why.

01:14:06   But for some reason, they weren't listened to.

01:14:09   So I hope something, whatever has changed

01:14:12   that caused this Mac Pro thing is also going to let them

01:14:16   be a little bit more honest about their own product reactions internally before they decide

01:14:22   to release things or go ahead with things so that they are less surprised when the public

01:14:27   doesn't love every weird, beautiful, useless thing they release.

01:14:31   Chat Room points out a quick real-time follow-up that Federighi said in the thing that the

01:14:36   Mac Pro sales didn't fall off. That's what I said before when I said, "Oh, you're releasing

01:14:39   Mac Pro in a trash can and the sales are kind of level." It's another one of those facts

01:14:44   it could be 100% true, but it doesn't tell you what the initial value was.

01:14:47   So if the Trash Can Mac Pro was only appealing to a certain very small subset of people and

01:14:52   those people were trapped into repeatedly buying it year after year even though it didn't

01:14:55   get updated, that would result in flat sales.

01:14:57   And because it's such a small percentage, it would result in, "Look how many people

01:15:01   who we classify as pros according to this weird metric buy our much more popular machines."

01:15:06   Well of course they do, those are your most popular machines.

01:15:09   Anyway, stats that are true, but do not necessarily prove the thing you're saying that they prove.

01:15:15   It's frustration.

01:15:16   Go ahead, Casey.

01:15:20   It's curious to try to reason through what Apple is thinking with regard to their products

01:15:27   and how they're received, because anyone I've ever spoken to who has spent any amount of

01:15:32   time as an Apple employee has always vehemently said that their biggest critics are themselves.

01:15:40   And I completely agree with you guys that from the outside, it seems clear that they

01:15:46   offered up this, you know, Touch Bar MacBook Pro and a platter and said, "Look at this

01:15:49   magnificent piece of electronics. You should be blessed enough to be able to give us a

01:15:54   whole pile of money for one of these." And then it did seem from the outside like they

01:16:00   surprised that people were like, "Yeah, we're good." But I don't know, on the inside, it's

01:16:05   a bold claim for any of us to make if we think that on the inside they were really taken aback

01:16:11   by it. Because as you said, Jon, the messaging to the outside will always be, "Oh no, this is

01:16:16   exactly what we planned." But the inside, I bet that they're being pretty darn honest with

01:16:23   themselves. And maybe the expectation was different, but I don't think it took them

01:16:27   very long to realize that, "Ooh, this didn't go the way we thought it did." And now they're

01:16:32   turning around. Now I will concede that it certainly seems like the Mac Pro something

01:16:37   just went totally wrong there, because I concede and agree that it took way too long, way, way,

01:16:43   way too long for them to make any statement about what's coming. And the consistent reports,

01:16:50   you know, be that rumors that it's been in the last six weeks to six months that they've really

01:16:56   gotten in on a new Mac Pro, like that's kind of alarming, but at least they're turning the ship

01:17:01   around. I don't know, it just seems weird. It seems weird to me for us to assume that there

01:17:09   aren't some very vocal critics within Apple, of Apple. Well, they totally are. Like, even Mark

01:17:14   was saying that they are. It's just a question of like, they don't win the argument because we can

01:17:17   tell who wins by what they actually ship. And like I said, I think that the presentation about the

01:17:23   the iPhone before they had a big iPhone with it. That slide I was trying to quote was like,

01:17:27   you know, "Customers want what we don't have," or something similar phrasing like.

01:17:31   They were just totally brutal about, "We don't have big phones. Customers want them.

01:17:35   We should make one." And they did, and guess what? It sold really, really well. So, like,

01:17:39   I believe internally that everything we're saying has been said internally by multiple

01:17:43   people and it's just a question of who wins the argument. And my general frustration is

01:17:47   because they have executives who are so good at talking to the public, so good at talking

01:17:53   to the public in terms of they'll never get off message, and also, like, they're willing

01:17:58   to throw out things that don't actually support what they're saying but sound like they do

01:18:02   at first glance, and I find it frustrating to never be able to get to the, "No, seriously,

01:18:06   just talk to me like a human being." Like, I guess that would have to be off the record.

01:18:09   On the record, they're never going to do that. Because in the end, it doesn't matter. Like,

01:18:13   who cares about the internal politics? The products are what they are. When you ask me

01:18:17   questions about it, I'm not going to trash my own products, and I'm not going to tell

01:18:19   you about future ones.

01:18:20   They could be working on a Surface Studio-style computer.

01:18:23   They could have had it in the works for three years now and they're just trying to get it

01:18:26   right.

01:18:27   They're never going to tell you that.

01:18:28   They're just going to say right up to the point when they release it Steve Jobs-style,

01:18:31   that's not a good idea.

01:18:32   We don't think it's a good idea until they come out and say, "We finally cracked it.

01:18:35   Here it is, and now it's a great idea because we did it."

01:18:37   That's just the way they work and it can just be frustrating from the outside.

01:18:40   But yeah, when the stuff that's coming out, that tells you.

01:18:45   that tells you who won arguments

01:18:46   and what decisions were made,

01:18:47   and that we can judge them based on.

01:18:50   So, yeah.

01:18:51   - It's also, it's hard too, like, you know,

01:18:53   like if you are like, you know, an engineer working on,

01:18:58   you know, photos.app or something like that,

01:19:01   are you really gonna be willing to take the,

01:19:04   the political hit internally to criticize a remote

01:19:08   that was designed by Johnny Ive or Richard Howarth?

01:19:11   Like, is that really gonna be a wise career move,

01:19:14   You know, like the company is set up in a way,

01:19:17   you know, it's a big company, there's rank,

01:19:20   there's politics internally, there's, you know,

01:19:22   every big company has this stuff.

01:19:24   So like, not everybody can get their voice heard

01:19:29   if they have a criticism about a product

01:19:31   that is being considered or being designed.

01:19:33   Like, it's up to, like, there have to be people who,

01:19:38   it has to be set up in a way that like,

01:19:40   high up people can criticize.

01:19:42   And the people who are at the high up levels

01:19:45   need to criticize when necessary.

01:19:47   And this is, you know, like we've talked before

01:19:50   about this is one of Steve Jobs' greatest strengths.

01:19:53   And one of the reasons why he had such a great relationship

01:19:58   with Johnny Ive and with the engineering

01:20:00   is there was a great balance of editing and criticism

01:20:05   and honesty internally that resulted in mostly

01:20:08   only great stuff coming out.

01:20:09   The hit rate was pretty good there.

01:20:11   And when things did come out,

01:20:12   there weren't a lot of controversial or polarizing

01:20:16   attributes of new products as there are now.

01:20:19   Now it seems like almost everything that comes out,

01:20:23   there's great advances in some areas,

01:20:26   but almost all those advances come at some kind of

01:20:29   massively polarizing cost.

01:20:32   And I feel like that's happening more recently

01:20:34   than it used to.

01:20:35   And maybe that's because the collaboration or the editing

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01:22:02   You know, I wanted to go back just briefly.

01:22:08   I thought that the statistic that Jon had talked about earlier very quickly was just

01:22:14   fascinating and this is quoting from Gruber.

01:22:17   Apple's research shows that 15% of all Mac users use at least one pro app frequently.

01:22:23   These are apps for things like music creation, video editing, graphic design, and software

01:22:26   development.

01:22:27   Basically, apps that are performance intensive.

01:22:29   An additional 15% of all Mac users use Pro apps less frequently, but at least a few times

01:22:35   per month.

01:22:37   That 30% of the overall Mac user base is what Apple considers the Pro market.

01:22:41   I don't really have a lot to extrapolate from this, but I just thought it was very, very

01:22:45   interesting that according to Apple, 15% of users uses a Pro app frequently, whatever

01:22:54   that definition is, be that daily or multiple times a week or what have you.

01:22:58   and then another 15 that uses them at least a few times a month.

01:23:02   And I just thought that was a really fascinating statistic that I never expected to come out

01:23:08   of that meeting.

01:23:09   Yeah, that's a lot higher than I would have guessed, especially the 30% total.

01:23:14   That's kind of amazing.

01:23:15   Well, they didn't clearly communicate that, because if you read the transcript—and there

01:23:19   was much debate about this, many people interpreting, but now having read the transcript, it is

01:23:23   no more clear to me.

01:23:25   The question is, first one is clear, 15% use what they classify as a pro app at least once

01:23:30   a week.

01:23:32   Totally clear.

01:23:33   The second one is the problem because they say this group of users uses a pro app like

01:23:39   once every few weeks or whatever, some longer period.

01:23:42   And the question is, does that second group of users include the first?

01:23:45   Gruber clearly thinks it does because what Apple said was 30% use it in the longer period

01:23:51   and 15% in the shorter.

01:23:52   I can't tell if the 15 is part of the 30.

01:23:55   Like are they exclusive groups or are they inclusive?

01:23:57   And so you can't tell if the total is 30% or 45.

01:24:01   Apple could have communicated that better, like perhaps in text or in some other fashion

01:24:05   or it could have been clarified.

01:24:06   So depending on how you interpret what they said in the transcript, and I think it's a

01:24:11   big difference.

01:24:13   Are 45% of Mac users classified as occasional or frequent Pro users or is it 30% and 15

01:24:22   of them are once a week.

01:24:23   - Either way, these are very nice high numbers,

01:24:26   higher than I would have guessed.

01:24:27   - But Apple picks what it means to be a pro user.

01:24:29   They use a pro app, which they don't tell us what it is,

01:24:31   they just say, oh you know, like one of those apps

01:24:33   you use to make things, right?

01:24:34   - Well, I think it's pretty clear that what they mean

01:24:37   by pro app is anything Apple makes ends in pro,

01:24:40   so Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro, also probably like I would say

01:24:44   Adobe Creative Suite apps would make sense there,

01:24:45   and I think it was also very clear they meant Xcode.

01:24:48   And that includes a lot of people.

01:24:50   - Yep, I would agree with all of those,

01:24:52   but how many other things are in that category?

01:24:54   Is that didn't give us an exhaustive,

01:24:55   like you're just going by their metrics

01:24:57   and I bet they're picking something pretty broad.

01:25:00   For example, there could be just one application

01:25:02   that is frequently used that they happen to classify as pro

01:25:05   that pulls up the average for everything else.

01:25:06   These are, you know, we have no visibility to these,

01:25:08   Apple has all the information.

01:25:09   So I'm not surprised by that number.

01:25:11   It sounds about what I would think they would

01:25:13   because of their very broad definition of pro.

01:25:15   Everything you've defined, like I don't think that's broad,

01:25:17   but I'm just trying to think of like one other application

01:25:19   could throw in there, they would be like, "Oh, if you ever launch Terminal, you count

01:25:23   as a pro app."

01:25:24   Yeah, you could argue for that, but there's millions of people who are launching Terminal

01:25:27   just so they can use their Mac to SSH into something to do something, and they're not

01:25:31   using their Mac in a pro capacity.

01:25:33   It's a, you know, it's a glass TTY, as we used to say back in the day, and that is not

01:25:38   a pro use because you can do that from a MacBook, adorable, and it works fine.

01:25:42   But if you classify Terminal as a pro app, suddenly that brings up your numbers.

01:25:46   Probably pro as a state of mind.

01:25:48   [laughter]

01:25:50   Oh my goodness.

01:25:52   Alright, what else do we have to talk about with regard to the Mac Pro?

01:25:56   Well, we can move on to the iMac Pro, because there was another completely unsourced rumor, and this is the place where we're dumping them all on this show, right?

01:26:02   This is from... Yes, all of them on this episode. All of them, John.

01:26:07   This one also got reblogged everywhere. I'm surprised, like, people...

01:26:10   - The free blogging, I thought that the Mac blogosphere

01:26:13   had gotten over that.

01:26:15   Like there'll be one completely unsourced rumor

01:26:17   and some random thing that everybody else will grab it

01:26:19   and you'll see it appear at every site.

01:26:21   And sometimes you'll have to like pour over the site

01:26:24   to try to figure out, are they just signing that one thing

01:26:26   I read on that totally unsourced blog?

01:26:28   And sometimes they don't link to it

01:26:30   and sometimes they don't source it until the very end

01:26:32   and you're trying to figure out

01:26:32   and you see it in so many places.

01:26:34   Like, well, it must be true.

01:26:35   I've seen every Mac site I've seen

01:26:36   has been telling me about this,

01:26:37   these the specs of this new iMac Pro

01:26:40   it's like you trace it all back and it's just this one completely unsourced thing

01:26:43   anyway

01:26:44   this completely unsourced thing is giving us supposed specs

01:26:47   for the iMac Pro and this one says it will have

01:26:50   an Intel E3

01:26:52   1285 V6 I have no idea what the hell that is

01:26:55   uh... it's nothing

01:26:56   16 gigs of RAM, upgraded to 32 or 64, ECC memory

01:27:00   faster SSDs

01:27:02   uh... and uh...

01:27:04   up to two terabytes for the SSD size

01:27:06   and AMD graphics with support for VR and Pro apps,

01:27:09   whatever the hell that means.

01:27:10   Thunderbolt 3 USB-C Gen 2 with, ta-da,

01:27:13   a brand new keyboard for Casey.

01:27:15   - All right.

01:27:16   - That's something for everybody.

01:27:17   - All right, so basically, just to summarize quickly here,

01:27:21   Xeon E3, it might as well not be a Xeon.

01:27:25   The Xeon E3 is only barely different

01:27:30   from the consumer chips that the iMac already uses.

01:27:33   The only thing that would get you is support for ECC RAM.

01:27:36   - That's pretty good though.

01:27:38   - So that is something.

01:27:39   And so like that, I feel like if the iMac Pro,

01:27:45   just assume whenever we say iMac Pro, it's in finger quotes.

01:27:50   If the iMac Pro is something to handle like heavy horsepower,

01:27:55   then that's not gonna do it.

01:27:58   That's what the old iMac already has had.

01:28:01   If it's something to add check marks to make pros stop complaining about certain things,

01:28:06   it helps a little bit in that area in the sense that it enables ECC RAM.

01:28:10   But that's about it.

01:28:11   And Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C, like I'm assuming it has a lot of PCI Express lanes.

01:28:16   Does it have more?

01:28:17   I don't, no, I don't think it has any more.

01:28:18   You have to go to the E5 series.

01:28:21   I'm pretty sure it has the same PCI Express configuration as the regular i7 high-end chips.

01:28:26   Because it really is just an i7 with like ECC compatibility basically.

01:28:31   there's really nothing else to it.

01:28:33   That's literally all it is.

01:28:35   It is a way, the E3 line is mostly,

01:28:40   it mostly exists to make cheap server options.

01:28:43   'Cause servers almost always want ECC,

01:28:46   and server needs almost always use that

01:28:49   like in data centers and stuff.

01:28:51   And it's a way to basically bring the wonderful economy

01:28:54   and power of the consumer i7 line

01:28:56   into cheap 1U rack mount servers.

01:28:59   So there's not really a huge benefit.

01:29:03   And that's why, remember about two years ago,

01:29:06   they started selling, not Apple,

01:29:08   but the PC industry started selling Xeon laptops.

01:29:12   And that was the same kind of thing.

01:29:13   It was like using this E3 line where it's like,

01:29:16   yeah, that's not really anything more

01:29:18   than what we had before.

01:29:19   It's not really anything more than the consumer line.

01:29:21   So that's, same thing here, it would enable ECC,

01:29:24   but that would be the only advantage that it would have

01:29:27   over what we already have in the iMac.

01:29:28   That being said, it would also not require

01:29:32   any additional thermal headroom,

01:29:33   because it isn't a bigger chip,

01:29:36   it doesn't have more cores, it doesn't have a higher TDP.

01:29:40   It would be very easy for Apple

01:29:41   to configure an iMac with an E3.

01:29:43   So if the idea of the iMac Pro

01:29:47   is to do as little work as possible

01:29:49   and check off a few more boxes for pros

01:29:51   while changing almost nothing about the iMac,

01:29:53   then okay, maybe.

01:29:54   But that's probably not,

01:29:57   That wouldn't be a very compelling product for almost anybody.

01:30:00   So I hope that isn't what they're doing.

01:30:01   I hope they're doing more than that.

01:30:03   Well, if it's the only one that comes with Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C, then suddenly that

01:30:07   becomes a lot more attractive because it's not just people who are looking for a pro

01:30:10   who are buying it.

01:30:11   It's like anybody who wants basically a modern 5K iMac would buy it.

01:30:14   It's like, "Well, if that's the only one that has all the new ports on it, I'll get it."

01:30:17   And if they want that fancy new keyboard, right?

01:30:21   Other ancillary rumors attached to this, and I keep seeing this.

01:30:23   I haven't traced this back to the origin, to the fantastical origin, but the 8K display.

01:30:29   Apple's working on an 8K display for the next generation of Mac Pros.

01:30:32   8K display has been floating around for a long time.

01:30:36   Is that a thing that anyone is asking for?

01:30:40   Well Dell just shipped one.

01:30:41   You see, Dell just shipped one for five grand.

01:30:43   I know, I know, alright.

01:30:45   My question is, does the size math work out to be something reasonable?

01:30:51   Like how big would it have to be to keep the current DPI?

01:30:53   - Yeah, I think it would have to be like 40 inches.

01:30:56   It would have to be pretty big.

01:30:58   I think we learned from past monitor things

01:31:01   and some current day ones where you have that one LG,

01:31:06   super wide 35 inch or whatever it is, right?

01:31:09   So we've seen a rough idea of what monitor sizes are

01:31:15   and what works and what doesn't.

01:31:16   We can probably agree, actually I'm curious, John,

01:31:20   'cause you're probably the contrarian here.

01:31:22   What do you think is the largest inch diagonal measurement

01:31:27   that a single monitor could reasonably be

01:31:31   for practical desktop computer use,

01:31:33   where you wouldn't have to sit so far back from it

01:31:35   that the resolution would be wasted?

01:31:38   So my answer to that question would probably be

01:31:41   maybe like 32 inches, maybe at most 35?

01:31:46   What do you think?

01:31:48   - I would go up to 42 because I know people

01:31:50   use televisions as their monitors. Obviously the resolution is horrendous, right? But they're using

01:31:54   like actual televisions as their monitors because they can get them in really big sizes. And why?

01:31:59   Because if you have any kind of vision impairment, you can't buy a computer monitor

01:32:03   that makes things as big as you want that doesn't make it look like you're looking through a tiny

01:32:06   little porthole. So they will get a 42-inch television and put it at like a resolution

01:32:12   that we would run a 23-inch display at and keep it like normal computer distance from them and just

01:32:17   just lets them see things better. So I think it's actually surprisingly big.

01:32:22   But that wouldn't be a use case for 8K, though. 8K is talking about like—

01:32:25   Right, no, no. But you just asked about the inch sizes right now. 8K specifically. The

01:32:28   reason I'm skeptical of the 8K thing is not because I think 8K is not a thing, right?

01:32:32   But just when I envision Apple making a monitor for its Mac Pro, I envisioned 8K as a thing

01:32:38   that only people who are working at ILM get, so they can look at their 8K video composites

01:32:43   or whatever, like that, you know, people who are working with source material shot in 8K,

01:32:47   but traditionally Apple has left that market to like the super duper high end color calibrated

01:32:53   weird monitors with hoods over them and like that type of thing.

01:32:57   Apple has never sold one of those.

01:32:59   They've always sold a really good monitor for regular people that has great color calibration,

01:33:03   but always during the entire history of Apple, if you go into a very fancy place that even

01:33:08   just does stuff with Photoshop or with special effects or whatever, you will see one of those

01:33:12   really weird I don't think any makes a bunch of them or you know one of those

01:33:15   really weird monitors just for this specific industry and right now I feel

01:33:20   like 8k is in that category the only people who need 8k are people who are

01:33:24   shooting 8k footage who want to see it displayed in 8k so you want 8k monitor

01:33:29   but like I'm not gonna be sad if Apple makes one I think it'll be awesome but

01:33:33   that seems such like such a narrow thing that Apple's gonna go from we're not

01:33:38   making a monitor at all to guess what we're making an 8k one and to get back

01:33:41   to what you were saying Marco, if they do make an 8K one, I hope it's not the only one

01:33:45   because I really don't, I personally don't actually want a 40-inch monitor.

01:33:51   And I think 8K at 27 or 30 inches is overkill for my needs.

01:33:55   So if they only make an 8K monitor, A, it's going to be super expensive and B, oh God,

01:34:00   I probably would actually buy it too, wouldn't I?

01:34:02   Like –

01:34:03   Oh, you would.

01:34:04   Oh, you would.

01:34:05   Like it's not what I want out of a monitor and I'm thinking they're going to make a

01:34:07   5K display, because I think 5K is in the spot where Apple usually makes monitors, and they

01:34:12   leave 8K to Dell and NEC and ViewSonic and whoever else is making these monitors for

01:34:17   professional things that you can already buy today.

01:34:21   But we'll see.

01:34:22   The 8K rumor won't die.

01:34:24   Anything else on the Mac Pro, kids?

01:34:26   There's always—why do you even keep asking that?

01:34:29   If you just stopped asking that and just moved on, you would catch us off guard.

01:34:33   No, because there's more, unfortunately.

01:34:36   I'm watching for Casey.

01:34:38   Two related stories that were in the notes last week,

01:34:40   or at least one of them was, and we didn't get to it,

01:34:43   that may or may not be related.

01:34:45   The more recent one is Nvidia's announcement

01:34:48   that their new graphics cards have Mac support.

01:34:51   And you're like, what?

01:34:53   What do you mean by that?

01:34:55   There are no Macs with card slots.

01:34:56   What are you talking about?

01:34:57   How can you have Mac support?

01:34:59   Right, it's like, oh, yeah, all those cheese graters.

01:35:02   Yeah, you can put those things in there.

01:35:04   So Nvidia is offering drivers for its Pascal-based GPUs.

01:35:08   That's their latest architecture of GPUs.

01:35:10   And this is the, the Titan, Nvidia Titan XP

01:35:12   is their product they're launching.

01:35:13   But the drivers they're making will work

01:35:16   with any Pascal-based GPU, apparently, on the Mac.

01:35:19   And why would they do that?

01:35:21   I mean, people with cheese graters can buy them.

01:35:24   And, you know, or people with Hackintoshes, right,

01:35:26   who wanna run macOS and do all this stuff.

01:35:29   And Apple didn't ship drivers for this

01:35:32   because they don't ship any machines with Pascal GPUs in them, as far as I'm aware.

01:35:36   Like do they have a Pascal based one in one of the portables?

01:35:38   I forget.

01:35:39   Maybe the chat room will be able to tell me.

01:35:40   But anyway.

01:35:41   - I don't think Apple ships Nvidia anything right now.

01:35:44   Apple and Nvidia seem to have some kind of major fallout and I think they ship ATI stuff

01:35:49   or AMD stuff now everywhere.

01:35:52   Which is kind of a problem.

01:35:53   You know, we keep hearing, I don't want to steal what you're going to say if you're going

01:35:57   to say this, but we keep hearing from people who know this stuff that like really Nvidia

01:36:01   has kicked AMD's butt so hard in GPUs

01:36:04   and things like GPUs,

01:36:06   like those parallel computing cards recently,

01:36:09   that Apple really, really apparently,

01:36:12   if they wanna be competitive in these high-end GPU areas,

01:36:16   they should really consider going back to Nvidia.

01:36:20   And it seems like for whatever reason,

01:36:23   possibly some kind of weird business disagreement

01:36:25   or history, they have been unwilling to do that so far,

01:36:28   but maybe they should reconsider

01:36:30   out of their trade address pros better.

01:36:33   So that balance of power between AMD and Nvidia, it has swung around.

01:36:36   It's not like Intel and AMD, where Intel just dominated, has come back from the bruising

01:36:43   of the Athlon age, as we discussed in a past show, and it's just dominated for a really

01:36:46   long time, and like Ryzen is just like the turnaround, possibly now.

01:36:51   But AMD and Nvidia have traded the lead many times, and specifically for Apple's purposes,

01:36:58   talking about the highest at the high end, which Apple's been ignoring anyway.

01:37:01   Very often the ATI or AMD part actually is the right choice for specific things.

01:37:06   But if your concern is, "I want the best performance in a given thermal envelope or

01:37:13   whatever, and that thermal envelope isn't really, really low," NVIDIA is currently

01:37:17   the leader.

01:37:19   That could change with the next generation of GPUs.

01:37:22   But either way, Apple has nothing in any of its products and hasn't for many, many years

01:37:27   that could be considered a high-end GPU.

01:37:29   None, just they don't sell them.

01:37:31   Even when the 2013 trash can Mac Pro was brand new,

01:37:36   the day it was released,

01:37:37   the day it was announced for that matter,

01:37:40   you could buy faster cards and put them in PCs.

01:37:42   Single cards, double cards, everything.

01:37:44   - I'm pretty sure, like the last time

01:37:46   they had competitive GPUs was when you,

01:37:49   and at the time I, bought the 2008 Mac Pro,

01:37:52   and you could for $200 get an NVIDIA 8800 GT.

01:37:56   And at the time, that was like an upper mid-range card.

01:37:59   And we were like, oh, that's a nice option, thanks.

01:38:01   - Yeah, it was, it was a decent card.

01:38:02   - That was a long time ago.

01:38:03   - Yeah, and always there have been third-party people

01:38:06   like buying PC cards and flashing the firmware and stuff.

01:38:09   And it was just a matter of like,

01:38:10   does Apple support this GPU architecture?

01:38:12   'Cause if they supported it,

01:38:13   sometimes the drivers would work with the higher-end cards

01:38:15   that were just overclocked

01:38:16   or just had more VRAM and stuff like that.

01:38:18   And so this announcement by NVIDIA

01:38:20   has a lot of people thinking,

01:38:22   oh, maybe the new Mac Pro that Apple just admitted

01:38:25   they were creating like three days ago, maybe it's going to use Pascal-based GPUs.

01:38:29   And you know what?

01:38:30   That would be awesome.

01:38:31   And I hope it does because they're really good, right?

01:38:34   But I can't draw any kind of sane connecting line between Nvidia supporting Macs with its

01:38:41   current crop of lines and anything that Apple's going to do by its as yet unknown to anybody

01:38:46   outside Apple Mac Pro project.

01:38:49   So I can't connect those lines, but I really sincerely do hope that an option on the new

01:38:56   Mac Pro is the highest of high-end video cards from Nvidia, because that would be awesome.

01:39:02   And they kept talking about how people want a single really fast GPU, and this is a single

01:39:07   really fast GPU.

01:39:08   For all we know, Apple could have made a deal with Nvidia for them to develop these drivers,

01:39:11   because that's the only line I can draw.

01:39:13   It's like, "Why the heck is Nvidia doing this?

01:39:14   Are they so desperate for money that they want the seven people who have Hackintosh's

01:39:17   to buy this card and put it in?"

01:39:19   Like, what, why? Because making drivers for, making Mac drivers for a video card is non-trivial.

01:39:26   It's a difficult thing to do, working with Apple's, you know, driver stack so different

01:39:32   from Windows, and for what benefit. So, maybe there was some kind of agreement or money

01:39:38   changing hands to have Nvidia do this sometime in the past, and they're just like, "Well,

01:39:44   while we wait to be in the new Mac Pro, we'll sell this to people," or whatever. I don't

01:39:48   But anyway, I'm excited about this.

01:39:50   People who have cheese graters who are more modern than mine that can actually run this,

01:39:53   I believe I can't run this in mine because I think it requires more PCI express lanes.

01:39:58   You can't even run Sierra.

01:40:00   Yeah, I can't even run.

01:40:02   Anyway, this seems like an exciting announcement for a very small group of Mac nerds.

01:40:05   I'm excited by the prospect of a very super high-end GPU and a future Mac Pro.

01:40:12   But for now, I can't connect the dots on this to say that this means anything about what

01:40:16   what GPU the next Mac Pro is going to have.

01:40:20   And related to this is the older story, which is about Apple moving away from imagination,

01:40:28   the PowerVR GPUs that it uses in all of its iOS products.

01:40:32   For many, many years, speaking of GPUs, Apple's GPUs and its iOS devices have been awesome.

01:40:38   They have been amazingly good.

01:40:40   They always show that graph that shows, look how crappy our GPUs were in the beginning

01:40:44   of the iOS devices before we even called it iOS.

01:40:48   And look at this curve.

01:40:49   Every time we come up with a new product, the GPU is like super-duper faster.

01:40:52   It's like, it's not linear.

01:40:54   It's like going up like a hockey stick.

01:40:55   We are kicking butt on GPUs and look what we can do with these games and all, you know.

01:41:00   And it's true.

01:41:01   They've been doing a really good job with the GPUs.

01:41:03   And for, I think for the entire life of iOS devices, they have been using PowerVR-based

01:41:10   GPUs with intellectual property licensed from Imagination Technology.

01:41:15   And Imagination Technology put out this press release, this very sad, angry press release

01:41:20   that's like, "Apple tells us they're not going to be using our intellectual property

01:41:25   anymore."

01:41:26   And Apple, by the way, is like more than 50 percent of our revenue.

01:41:30   But we think, basically, it's impossible to make a modern GPU without infringing our

01:41:35   intellectual property, which, by the way, is another reason the patent system is ridiculous.

01:41:38   I'm like, "Little does Apple know it is literally impossible to make a modern GPU without our

01:41:43   intellectual property, right?"

01:41:44   So we own these ideas forevermore or like whatever the ridiculous term limit is on patents.

01:41:52   But John, patents are to foster innovation.

01:41:55   Without patents, nobody would innovate.

01:41:58   No one would ever be able to make a GPU without these ideas that are now obvious to everybody

01:42:01   who is, what is it, obvious to people well versed in the art.

01:42:06   Anyway, I hate patents, but Apple says they are not licensing this technology, which means

01:42:13   that Apple is going to make GPUs for its iOS devices, presumably, or whatever.

01:42:18   They're either not going to make GPUs or they're going to make GPUs licensed from somebody

01:42:21   else or they're going to make their own.

01:42:23   Apple has, as Phil Schiller points out, or one of the people points out, one of the best

01:42:28   chip design groups in the world, arguably the best, going based on how good their system-mounted

01:42:33   chips are for their devices.

01:42:35   Have you seen the benchmarks of the new Samsung S8 or whatever?

01:42:40   It matches the performance of the iPhone 6S?

01:42:42   Like two generations behind.

01:42:46   Apple is doing amazing.

01:42:48   They're making these chips themselves.

01:42:49   Yes, it's ARM-based technology and they have that license from ARM to use the instruction

01:42:52   set and all that other stuff or whatever.

01:42:54   And yes, they're licensing GPU stuff from PowerBR or whatever, but Apple, make no mistake,

01:42:59   Apple is designing these things.

01:43:00   since the confusingly named Swift CPU,

01:43:03   which I think was the first one

01:43:04   that they really did themselves from scratch.

01:43:06   - Yeah, it was the iPhone 5, right?

01:43:08   - Yeah, they're doing amazing.

01:43:10   So I have zero doubt that if Apple wanted to,

01:43:13   they have the in-house expertise

01:43:15   to make an amazing GPU for the next iPhone.

01:43:18   Whether or not it infringes on patents,

01:43:19   who the hell knows what the lawyers fight it out.

01:43:21   I think Apple's gonna win that one

01:43:22   because they have more money

01:43:23   and that's how our legal system works.

01:43:25   (laughing)

01:43:26   They're like, you know what, F you imagination,

01:43:28   we're gonna buy your company.

01:43:29   Done and done, we win.

01:43:32   And that's their worst case scenario.

01:43:34   So Apple will not lose this.

01:43:35   Or they could be licensing someone else's thing.

01:43:40   But combining the new Mac Pro rumor,

01:43:43   which now affects everything that is discussed

01:43:46   surrounding the Mac, it's like,

01:43:48   does this mean Apple is gonna make their own GPUs

01:43:51   for the new Mac Pro?

01:43:52   And while I think that would be amazing and fantastical,

01:43:55   I'm gonna say no on that one.

01:43:56   - Yeah, that makes no sense.

01:43:57   Because Apple already doesn't like the ROI on the Mac Pro, reportedly, and in fact they

01:44:05   seem to not like it so much that they didn't even make one.

01:44:07   They just barely decided to make one.

01:44:11   If Apple's making a GPU architecture, they're making it for iOS devices.

01:44:15   And I have a hard time believing that a GPU design could even be adapted from iOS devices

01:44:23   to something like the new Mac Pro.

01:44:25   So I'm thinking the new Mac Pro will not have a GPU of Apple's own design.

01:44:30   I'm hoping it will have a super high-end NVIDIA GPU or at least whatever the best architecture

01:44:35   is that AMD has.

01:44:36   I forget what theirs is called.

01:44:37   Is it Maxwell?

01:44:38   I don't remember.

01:44:39   Maybe that's another NVIDIA one.

01:44:43   And I don't think the imagination rumor is connected to the Mac Pro either.

01:44:47   It does make me kind of excited about what the next iPhone and the GPUs are going to

01:44:52   like there because presumably Apple is ditching imagination for some benefit.

01:44:59   And I don't think the benefit is the relatively piddling amount of money they pay.

01:45:03   It's like only $75 million a year, which is a lot of money to imagination technologies.

01:45:07   Apparently it's like Apple is their biggest customer.

01:45:10   It's like more than half of their revenue.

01:45:12   But Apple sneezes and $75 million comes out and falls on the carpet.

01:45:15   That's how much they spend for snacks at the defunct Apple car project, right?

01:45:25   So I think they want to do it for the same reason they do everything.

01:45:28   They want to own and control the blah, blah, blah technology, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:45:31   And I bet they have some good ideas about—that chip team is like, "We have some good ideas

01:45:36   about how to do a GPU in ways that are our own, our own ideas.

01:45:44   Why do we need this imagination technology stuff anymore?

01:45:46   We have all the expertise in-house to make an amazing GPU ourselves.

01:45:49   We don't need them anymore.

01:45:50   It will free us up to do what we want.

01:45:52   Now there's a couple of good articles about this that say, "All right, so Apple could

01:45:55   do this," but there is an entire software ecosystem built up around the PowerVR architecture

01:46:02   that take advantage of features of the PowerVR architecture that are tuned to work well on

01:46:10   that architecture in terms of, you know, for games you can get really low-level type of

01:46:13   stuff like things that perform particularly well on a particular chip with a particular

01:46:17   set of execution units in a particular arrangement with particular latencies, that's how game

01:46:20   development works a lot of the time, especially as you get up towards the high end.

01:46:25   If Apple makes a new GPU that has very different characteristics or that doesn't support any

01:46:30   of these weird PowerVR specific extensions, that are things that game developers can use,

01:46:38   or could have used in the past, that may be a problem for iOS game compatibility.

01:46:43   Stuff like Metal may help with this because presumably Metal provides—I mean, it's

01:46:50   less of an abstraction layer than OpenGL, but it's more than writing against the bare

01:46:55   metal of the GPU.

01:46:58   So there could be trouble waters at for iOS game performance, but I have faith that Apple

01:47:03   knows about all these issues and will have software-based solutions.

01:47:07   And because their new GPU will be so much faster than the old ones, games tuned for

01:47:10   For the PowerVR performance specifics, they'll get buy-in-the-new-in just because it's so

01:47:14   much faster.

01:47:15   So this development, this sort of corporate divorce, makes me excited to see what the

01:47:22   next GPU will be like.

01:47:24   And I assume it's like the—not this year's one, but next year's?

01:47:27   I guess we'll find out as soon as the iPhone 8 or whatever they're going to call it comes

01:47:30   out and someone checks it out and sees if it has a PowerVR-based GPU in there.

01:47:36   But I'm kind of excited about that,

01:47:38   but I don't think it's related to the Mac Pro.

01:47:40   - Yeah, I agree completely.

01:47:42   There's no way that it's connected to the Mac Pro.

01:47:45   The timing is a coincidence, yeah, there's no way.

01:47:48   I also think with the idea of changing it

01:47:52   and being a problem for games,

01:47:54   I don't think it's that big of a deal

01:47:55   because there aren't that many people

01:47:59   writing high performance, low level game engines

01:48:02   at that level for iOS or for anything really.

01:48:06   There's not a lot of original low-level game engines

01:48:09   being written at any given time.

01:48:11   Most games that come out are using someone else's engine.

01:48:15   So it's a relatively small number of engine providers

01:48:20   and authors that will need to adapt

01:48:22   to any changes like this anyway.

01:48:24   And the fact is enough iPhones are sold

01:48:28   that if the new iPhones from this point forward

01:48:31   have this architecture, every mobile game developer

01:48:34   is going to demand support for that,

01:48:36   and so the engine makers are gonna do it.

01:48:39   So it's really not an issue.

01:48:41   Like that's not gonna be a problem at all.

01:48:44   - Yeah, it's still better,

01:48:45   same thing on game consoles these days,

01:48:47   where like game consoles will feel free

01:48:49   to rev their hardware, and then console game developers,

01:48:53   just deal with it.

01:48:54   Like when the PS4 Pro comes out, or the Scorpio,

01:48:56   like, it's just like, well, the hardware changed

01:48:59   in a way that we have never optimized for,

01:49:01   but then again also the hardware is faster

01:49:03   as this new GPU will faster as well.

01:49:05   And they figure it out because that's how you make,

01:49:07   that's how you make the money.

01:49:09   That's how you sell the games.

01:49:10   Thanks for our three sponsors this week,

01:49:13   Squarespace, Audible, and Fracture.

01:49:15   We will see you next week.

01:49:17   (upbeat music)

01:49:20   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:49:22   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:49:25   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:49:26   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:49:27   ♪ Oh it was accidental ♪

01:49:29   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:49:30   John didn't do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn't let him

01:49:35   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

01:49:38   It was accidental (accidental)

01:49:41   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:49:46   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:49:51   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:49:55   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:49:59   ♫ Anti-Marco Armin

01:50:02   ♫ S-I-R-A-C

01:50:05   ♫ U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A

01:50:07   ♫ It's accidental

01:50:08   ♫ It's accidental

01:50:10   ♫ They didn't mean to

01:50:12   ♫ Accidental

01:50:14   ♫ Accidental

01:50:15   ♫ Tech podcast so long

01:50:18   - So once I went back and listened to the tape last time,

01:50:22   it certainly does appear that I'm going to win the bet

01:50:24   in all likelihood, because I never bet on it

01:50:28   being unmodified.

01:50:29   said, if the 2013 Mac Pro is still for sale on January 1st.

01:50:33   That's kind of vague. Someone did provide a link that I actually removed from follow-up

01:50:38   that was like, "See, look, they didn't change the name of it," and they gave me a link to

01:50:41   the page that talks about the 2013, but I couldn't find anything on the page that said

01:50:45   that it wasn't just like a page that hadn't yet been updated. Like, nothing about it indicated

01:50:49   that that page was aware that they did the reconfiguration thing. But anyway, everything

01:50:54   Everything that I've seen indicates to me that this is just a price drop and a model

01:50:59   elimination and everything about them will be exactly the same, including the name and

01:51:05   the model number.

01:51:06   And so even on the strictest possible definition, they could still be for sale.

01:51:10   Yeah, so I won't declare victory until January 1st, but I am confident that I'm most likely

01:51:15   to win this.

01:51:17   You should just start scrounging for money in your couch, Casey, each day if you find

01:51:20   any change there.

01:51:21   Put it in a little jar and by the end of the year you'll have five dollars.

01:51:24   - No, remember I found $5 at the end of last week's story,

01:51:27   so we're good.

01:51:28   (laughing)

01:51:30   - At some point, don't worry,

01:51:33   at some point we're gonna talk about something else.

01:51:35   Just that time is not today.

01:51:37   - I'm skeptical.

01:51:38   It's probably not until 2018.

01:51:41   Actually no, and then in 2018, it'll be,

01:51:44   oh where's the Mac Pro?

01:51:45   Where's the Mac Pro?

01:51:46   Where's the Mac Pro?

01:51:47   It's not here.

01:51:48   Where's the Mac Pro?

01:51:49   It's not here.

01:51:49   Why isn't it here?

01:51:50   Apple is doomed.

01:51:51   Where's the Mac Pro?

01:51:52   It's not here.

01:51:53   They already said, they didn't even say it was gonna come in 2018, so we're already saying

01:51:57   it might not be here until 2019, so our expectations are appropriately set.

01:52:01   We will be hopeful.

01:52:02   Oh, like that's gonna stop you two?

01:52:04   Yeah, yeah, it'll be totally—like, this—seriously though, this announcement that they're doing

01:52:08   this thing gets rid of a lot of anxiety.

01:52:12   It's like, it's just a matter of—we used to before say it's just a matter of when,

01:52:15   but we didn't know.

01:52:16   Now we know.

01:52:17   They put a stake in the ground.

01:52:18   They said words, they made promises.

01:52:20   They're gonna keep them.

01:52:21   Like, it's gonna happen.

01:52:22   It's gonna happen for us. I know it.

01:52:24   Then we can complain about what they released. That's where the good stuff is.

01:52:28   After they release something or announce it.

01:52:30   Everything in between too. Like, if they preview it at, you know, a fall event or WWDC or whatever else,

01:52:37   then we can nitpick the preview to death. That's at least two episodes.

01:52:40   Yep. Then we can say like, "They said they were gonna make the parts upgradable,

01:52:44   but everything is soldered to this motherboard. What were they thinking?

01:52:46   Did they just mean that they're gonna upgrade it? Maybe they won't even upgrade it if everything is soldered on."

01:52:51   Yeah, we'll have fun there, but they said so many of the right things.

01:52:55   This is going to be a long honeymoon period for me to just imagine how awesome this thing's going to be.

01:53:00   And then a three-year long just tirade about how it doesn't meet your every expectation.

01:53:08   I'm still even considering buying the iMac Pro.

01:53:11   Like, in addition to the Mac, it just has been so long since I bought a Mac,

01:53:16   I should do a Margo thing where I'm gonna buy the iMac Pro, keep it for a little while,

01:53:20   - Sell it by the Mac Pro.

01:53:21   - Yeah, 'cause I had the Mac Pro for only about

01:53:24   nine or 10 months before the 5K came out,

01:53:26   and I didn't lose that much money on it.

01:53:28   Like, I lost, I think like 15% or something

01:53:32   over like, you know, almost a year.

01:53:35   I consider that pretty good.

01:53:37   - Yeah.

01:53:38   - Do you think a MacBook Adorable update is imminent,

01:53:40   'cause I'm really itching to buy one.

01:53:42   - You mean a speed bump?

01:53:43   Sorry, Apple doesn't do those anymore.

01:53:45   (laughing)

01:53:47   - Oh my God.

01:53:47   - It really, it honestly is a very good question,

01:53:49   like where the heck that is,

01:53:51   'cause it sure seems like,

01:53:52   you know, that probably should have come out this spring.

01:53:55   Pretty sure the trip was available, but you know.

01:53:58   Maybe there could be, see now, like, now we don't know.

01:54:00   Before we could just say,

01:54:02   ah, it's just Tim Cook being, you know, Tim Cook.

01:54:04   Now we can say maybe they're rethinking things.

01:54:06   Maybe, like, now we can be a little more optimistic

01:54:08   and be like, well, maybe they're doing something else.

01:54:11   - Well, like I said when you talked about the Mac Mini,

01:54:14   just because they've realized

01:54:15   that if you want a high-end computer, you have to update it,

01:54:17   Like they've clearly made that realization that A,

01:54:20   they do want to have a high-end computer,

01:54:21   and B, you can't have an high-end computer

01:54:22   that you don't update it, right?

01:54:24   That doesn't mean they made that same realization

01:54:25   about anything else in the product line,

01:54:27   because they could be saying,

01:54:28   as you go down the line, it's like,

01:54:30   you can have a MacBook Adorable that we never update.

01:54:32   It's not a high-end product.

01:54:33   Nobody cares about performance, it's fine.

01:54:35   Why waste time updating it every year with speed bumps?

01:54:38   And like that's one of those things,

01:54:40   like so many things that Apple reconsider,

01:54:41   is like, why does the computer

01:54:42   have to have an optical drive?

01:54:44   Why do batteries have to be removable on laptops, right?

01:54:47   All these things that other companies won't consider.

01:54:50   One of the recent ones that Apple has adopted is,

01:54:54   do you have to speed bump computers every year

01:54:57   just because new components are available?

01:54:59   And Apple's answer was, no, no you don't.

01:55:02   Like our sales don't seem to suffer from it.

01:55:04   In fact, maybe they do better

01:55:05   because we built up all this demand among the people

01:55:07   who know that our computers are old and crappy,

01:55:09   that we have these big spikes when we release new things.

01:55:12   So maybe you don't have to do that.

01:55:13   Now on the high end, they've changed their mind.

01:55:15   But the whole rest of the line,

01:55:17   I will need to be convinced that they've realized

01:55:19   that speed bumps are a thing

01:55:20   that they should go back to doing.

01:55:21   And honestly, I don't know if they should,

01:55:23   quote unquote, should for the business.

01:55:25   We all want them.

01:55:27   Tech nerds get upset that like speed bumps don't happen.

01:55:30   But maybe they're right for non high-end products

01:55:33   that the customers for those products don't care

01:55:36   and will just keep buying the MacBook Adorable

01:55:37   and update it every two years, every three years

01:55:39   or whatever and it will be fine.

01:55:41   And honestly, I can kind of get on the same page with them

01:55:44   if they have the numbers to back that up

01:55:45   because the role of those products is not to be

01:55:47   the very fastest thing you can get.

01:55:50   And when you do comparisons against competitive products,

01:55:52   it's like, well, but we got macOS.

01:55:54   It's not an apples to apples comparison, ha ha,

01:55:56   because who cares if you can buy a Dell laptop

01:55:59   for way cheaper that has updated components, no macOS.

01:56:03   So that could be what they're saying.

01:56:05   Now, I hope they go back to speed bumps

01:56:08   because I think it's just a healthier thing to do overall.

01:56:10   And the lack of speed bumps makes technical people angry

01:56:13   at Apple, which spills over into our attitudes

01:56:15   about everything else that they do, but who knows.

01:56:17   But anyway, they made the right decision on the Mac Pro.

01:56:19   Again, I'm still basking in that, so honeymoon period.

01:56:22   - You know, if you look at the MacRumors Buyer's Guide,

01:56:27   MacBook don't buy, MacBook Air don't buy,

01:56:29   MacBook Pro, eh, iMac don't buy, Mac Mini don't buy.

01:56:32   Mac Pro, buy now.

01:56:35   - Yeah, I can't believe they did that.

01:56:37   Like, it's like a bug in their system.

01:56:38   It's like, yeah, I know they quote unquote updated it

01:56:42   by changing prices, but you gotta turn that back

01:56:45   to don't buy, don't buy that.

01:56:48   - Yeah, there's no way that is earned, there's no way.

01:56:52   - That's a bug.

01:56:52   - That is earned even less than the new badge was

01:56:55   when we started this show for the 2012 Mac Pro.

01:56:57   - Is that still that way?

01:56:58   'Cause I saw those same screenshots

01:56:59   when people screen, ha ha, look at this,

01:57:01   isn't this funny, their buggy software put it as a buy.

01:57:03   But if it's still there, maybe it means someone

01:57:05   at MacRumors actually thinks--

01:57:06   - No, it looked a minute ago.

01:57:08   - No, they need to change that.

01:57:08   - It's there. - Yep, it's still there.

01:57:09   It's right there, right on top.

01:57:11   Buy now, it says buy now, price drop.

01:57:13   So it at least clarifies that it's not an update.

01:57:17   - But don't buy now.

01:57:19   No one should buy those unless you have to.

01:57:22   Unless you know you have to because like whatever reason

01:57:25   that Casey's coworker needs to buy,

01:57:27   but regular people don't buy those.

01:57:29   It did not improve.

01:57:31   - No.

01:57:31   - And the price drop, if they had dropped the price

01:57:33   of 50 bucks, yeah, definitely buy, right?

01:57:35   But they didn't.

01:57:36   (laughing)

01:57:37   It's still pretty darn expensive.

01:57:39   You should not buy it.

01:57:40   - Yeah, now to get a good configuration,

01:57:42   instead of spending $7,000, you'll spend $5,000.

01:57:45   Still probably not worth spending

01:57:47   for an almost four-year-old computer.

01:57:49   - For a computer that your phone beats,

01:57:51   in certain benchmarks. - Yeah.

01:57:52   Well, it's not that bad, but it's not great.

01:57:54   - There's a refurb MacBook Adorables.

01:57:59   My brain is telling me no, but my heart is saying yes.

01:58:02   - Don't, just don't.

01:58:04   - Hey, I want one though.

01:58:06   I'm sick of having an iPad

01:58:08   that doesn't let me get anything done on it.

01:58:09   (laughing)

01:58:11   - Imagine if iPads actually worked

01:58:12   for getting things done, that'd be amazing.

01:58:14   - Oh my God.

01:58:15   (beeping)