216: Thermal Corner


00:00:00   [APPLAUSE]

00:00:05   Can't innovate anymore, my ass.

00:00:07   [LAUGHTER]

00:00:09   [APPLAUSE]

00:00:27   Thank you.

00:00:28   Today, we're going to talk about important things like me driving my dad's 1970 Dodge

00:00:36   Dart yesterday.

00:00:37   Yep, yeah, that's a good idea.

00:00:39   What about, um, I was wondering, Jon, do we have any follow-up?

00:00:44   We actually do, and we should actually do it.

00:00:47   There's only two items.

00:00:50   Only two.

00:00:51   Oh, okay, mark the time stamp, kids, because it's only two items, and by my clock, we're

00:00:58   seven and a half minutes into the call.

00:00:59   - Well, after follow up,

00:01:01   we can also talk about t-shirts, I suppose.

00:01:03   (laughing)

00:01:05   - Okay, Dad.

00:01:06   Why don't you kick us off, Dad?

00:01:08   - Can't we just eat our dessert first?

00:01:10   (laughing)

00:01:11   - No, we-- - We'll get there.

00:01:12   - No, I support, I'll snark aside.

00:01:14   We should get through the follow up.

00:01:15   It shouldn't be very long, hopefully.

00:01:17   - All right.

00:01:18   - So last week, we talked for the second time

00:01:21   about APFS file name encoding,

00:01:24   and you wouldn't think there would be more to say about it,

00:01:26   and yet here we are.

00:01:27   to talk about it for the third, possibly fourth time.

00:01:30   Are you serious?

00:01:31   Yes, because Apple has posted official documentation on their website answering the question,

00:01:39   "Hey, what's the deal with file name and coding on APFS?"

00:01:42   And so to summarize, and this is a little bit weirder than I would have expected, they say,

00:01:48   "APFS has case sensitive and case insensitive variants." We kind of assume that would be the

00:01:53   case but here they go they set it right outright. The case insensitive variant of APFS is normalization

00:01:59   preserving but not normalization sensitive which is pretty weird like basically if you send it a

00:02:06   file name normalized however the hell you want it pick your own Unicode normalization. APFS will

00:02:13   preserve that but it's not normalization sensitive this is the case insensitive variant it's not

00:02:18   normalization sensitive in that if you try to look something up and you say hey do you have a file

00:02:22   called "cafe" with a little e over the accent, and my reading of this is that you feed it that string

00:02:28   in any normalization you want, and it doesn't matter what normalization it is in the file

00:02:33   system, it will find it because the file system is not normalization sensitive, but it preserves

00:02:39   what you give it. Really confusing. So anyway, we'll have to get a case insensitive variant of

00:02:44   this on the Mac and do some tests to see what the deal is. But the case sensitive variant is

00:02:48   both normalization preserving and normalization sensitive. So that is straightforward. It's

00:02:53   case sensitive on iOS is just exactly what we said. It takes what you give it and that's it.

00:02:59   And they do clarify here, file names in APFS are encoded in UTF-8 and aren't normalized. So

00:03:07   it wants you, so it's not as if you read a directory structure in APFS and you say,

00:03:11   "I have no idea what encoding this is." Assuming everybody's following the rules,

00:03:14   and I'm not sure if this is enforced at the file system level or not,

00:03:18   they all have to be UTF-8 and the file system itself is not going to take your UTF-8 string

00:03:24   and normalize it like HFS+ does. Like whatever you give it in UTF-8, that's what it's going to

00:03:29   stick in the file system. Both variants will do that, but it's interesting that they're saying,

00:03:33   you know, no UTF-16, no UTF-32, no anything like that. I suppose if you use the lowest level APIs

00:03:40   you could just jam whatever the heck you wanted into there, but they're they're documented here,

00:03:44   utf-8 and they compare with hfs plus which has all of its weird rules and they say that in macos

00:03:52   10 12 4 the apos developer preview was updated to include the case insensitive variant so this is

00:03:58   the first time the case insensitive variant of apfs has been available in any version of the

00:04:04   operating system and in ios of course in 10 3 we get the case sensitive variant and they give some

00:04:10   advice for avoiding bugs, I bet there will be WWDC sessions about this exact issue because I think

00:04:16   it's going to come up a lot. They want you to use the high level APIs, they want you to use NSFileManager

00:04:20   and NSURL, and they want you to use the file system representation property of NSURL when

00:04:25   creating and opening files with lower level file system APIs like the POSIX stuff. So

00:04:29   there are high level APIs to give you, you know, a character buffer or whatever to feed into lower

00:04:36   level APIs. So I'm glad they have some documentation on it. It's still pretty weird. This is definitely

00:04:41   a case where we're going to need to see a lot of sample code and a lot of sort of best practices

00:04:46   and anti-patterns. And still, I believe when the Mac operating system ships with a non-developer

00:04:53   preview version of its operating system, we will all get to find out which of our applications

00:04:58   are making assumptions that no longer hold in an APFS world as they slowly break. I'm going

00:05:03   I'm gonna bet on Adobe.

00:05:04   I don't know about you guys.

00:05:06   - I think that's a pretty safe bet.

00:05:08   Oh my goodness.

00:05:09   All right, we should do a quick bit of follow up

00:05:12   and talk about the situation report for WWDC.

00:05:17   We spoke last episode, Marco was 100% dedicated to layers,

00:05:20   which as far as I know still has availability,

00:05:24   so you might wanna check that out.

00:05:25   John and I had put our names in the hat for WWDC.

00:05:30   Jon, did you win the lottery and win the opportunity to give Apple $1600 of your money?

00:05:36   I did.

00:05:37   I'm a winner.

00:05:38   All right!

00:05:39   Congratulations!

00:05:40   I was very excited.

00:05:41   Yeah.

00:05:42   I remember the interminable wait in years past for, you know, when other people are

00:05:46   getting their emails.

00:05:47   And this time I was distracted enough that by the time I looked at my email, there it

00:05:52   was.

00:05:53   Success.

00:05:54   Very happy.

00:05:55   Delightful.

00:05:56   I also won the lottery this year, which is very exciting because I did not win the lottery

00:05:59   last year.

00:06:00   So I will also be at WWDC, which I'm very, very excited about.

00:06:06   Before we're asked, since all three of us will be in town, we are not going to do a

00:06:12   live in front of people ATP.

00:06:15   We never really have.

00:06:17   The closest thing we came was when we were on the talk show.

00:06:20   We don't do that because even though some of us would enjoy doing so, absolutely zero

00:06:28   of the three of us want to have anything to do with planning it.

00:06:31   And so that is why it's not happening.

00:06:33   But all three of us will be in town.

00:06:35   I'm sure we'll talk about this more on the episode before WWDC.

00:06:40   But if you see us, please say hi.

00:06:42   We always enjoy it.

00:06:43   We may not be able to talk for very long, depending on the situation, but we always

00:06:46   enjoy it if you could say hi.

00:06:47   Any other quick thoughts about WWDC, kids?

00:06:49   No.

00:06:50   Good talk.

00:06:51   Everybody, wear your ATP shirts.

00:06:53   Oh, and wear your ATP shirts.

00:06:55   It is all but guaranteed you will get a high-five hug or some other interaction from at least

00:07:00   me if no one else if I spot an ATP shirt.

00:07:04   And if I remember, I'll have some ATP stickers printed, which I'll probably forget.

00:07:08   But if I remember, I'll have some printed.

00:07:09   And if I see an ATP shirt, you're getting a sticker.

00:07:13   And then finally, on a very, very brief but somber note, I just wanted to quickly recognize

00:07:18   that a member of our community, Jason Seifer, who is a fellow podcaster, a Ruby developer,

00:07:24   and for a long time a teacher at Treehouse,

00:07:26   passed away unexpectedly and tragically over the weekend.

00:07:32   And I just wanted to acknowledge that

00:07:34   and say that I know I'm,

00:07:36   and I'm pretty darn sure I speak for everyone.

00:07:39   The three of us are very sad to hear it

00:07:41   and we were really bummed about it.

00:07:43   Mike and I talked about it

00:07:44   on the forthcoming episode of Analog

00:07:46   that won't be out until the weekend,

00:07:47   so probably several days after this episode.

00:07:49   But we're really bummed out and we're really sad about it and we just wanted to take a

00:07:54   pause to say that.

00:07:57   All right.

00:08:00   Big week?

00:08:01   A little bit.

00:08:02   I think it's been--some things have happened.

00:08:05   So this morning there appears to have been some sort of an embargo that had dropped about

00:08:12   a meeting that happened sometime, I guess, in the last day or two with regard to the

00:08:18   The Mac Pro, of all things.

00:08:20   Yeah, I mean, who had this on the bingo card for this week, right?

00:08:24   Certainly, certainly not me.

00:08:25   Oh my god, this was quite a big surprise.

00:08:29   A pleasant surprise, but certainly a sizable one.

00:08:34   Yeah, so there were a handful of people that were invited to Cupertino to discuss, I believe

00:08:42   it was phrased as a roundtable, to talk about the Mac.

00:08:45   Yes, a small roundtable discussion about the Mac.

00:08:48   So as per Jon Gruber, it was he, Matthew Panzareno, Lance Zulanoff, Ina Fre- how did I- shoot,

00:08:54   I pronounced that wrong, didn't I?

00:08:55   You're asking the wrong people.

00:08:56   All right, well, that's right.

00:08:58   I'm so sorry if I got that wrong.

00:08:59   Anyway, and John Pagzowski, I believe that's pretty close to right.

00:09:04   I should have made somebody else read those names, so I didn't have to.

00:09:07   Anyway, the group of them went to Cupertino to have a roundtable discussion about the

00:09:14   the Mac and including about the Mac Pro. So not even including the Mac Pro, I would say

00:09:21   it was primarily about the Mac Pro. That's absolutely right. It's interesting how they

00:09:24   phrase this. Like, come out, come out to Cupertino, we'll have a roundtable discussion about the

00:09:30   Mac. Who knows what they actually told the people about what they were going to do, but

00:09:33   their characterization of it, we're just going to hang out. We're just going to talk about

00:09:36   the Mac a little bit. Right, guys? And like Marco said, no, they're going to talk specifically

00:09:43   about one particular Mac that's near and dear to all of our hearts except for Casey.

00:09:48   And that's entirely what the thing was about, but I guess they can't come out and tell people,

00:09:52   "Hey, fly out Cupertino so we can tell you stuff about the Mac Pro."

00:09:57   They always want to have a little bit of a surprise.

00:10:00   I guess they did talk about the iMac.

00:10:01   I mean, they talked about a lot of things because you could ask them any questions you

00:10:04   wanted and then they could answer them however they wanted.

00:10:06   But the big takeaway from this and most of the headlines, with the exception of a couple

00:10:10   that did mention the iMac were all about the Mac Pro.

00:10:13   - Right, so I'm gonna do my best to summarize

00:10:17   and then I'll probably get interrupted

00:10:19   and that's for the best.

00:10:19   So let me start by reading a little for,

00:10:23   a little from what Gruber had written and he says,

00:10:25   "Here's how Schiller broke the news on the Mac Pro.

00:10:27   It's worth quoting him at length."

00:10:28   So let me now quote Gruber quoting Schiller.

00:10:32   "With regard to the Mac Pro,

00:10:33   we are in the process of what we call

00:10:35   completely rethinking the Mac Pro.

00:10:37   We're working on it.

00:10:38   We have a team working hard on it right now, and we want to architect it so that we can

00:10:42   keep it fresh with regular improvements, and we're committed to making it our highest-end,

00:10:46   high-throughput desktop system, designed for our demanding pro customers.

00:10:51   As a part of doing a new Mac Pro, it is by definition a modular system.

00:10:54   We will be doing a pro display as well.

00:10:57   John Saracusa, it is your lucky day.

00:11:00   That's me, not Schiller.

00:11:01   Anyway, now you won't see...

00:11:02   That would be amazing.

00:11:03   That would have been amazing.

00:11:04   Now you won't see any of those products this year.

00:11:07   in the process of that. We think it's really important to create something

00:11:10   great for our Pro customers who want a MacPro modular system and that'll take

00:11:13   longer than this year to do. In the interim we know that there are a number

00:11:17   of customers who will continue to buy our current MacPros. To be clear our

00:11:20   current MacPro has met the needs of some of our customers and we know that

00:11:24   clearly not all of our customers. None of this is black and white, it's a wide

00:11:28   variety of customers. Some it's the kind of system that they wanted, others it was

00:11:32   not. In the meantime we're going to update the configs to make it faster and

00:11:35   for their dollar. This is not a new model, we're not a new design, we're just going to update the

00:11:41   configs. We're doing that this week. We can give you the specifics on that. The CPUs, we're moving

00:11:45   them down the line. The GPUs down the line to get more performance per dollar for customers who do

00:11:49   need to continue to buy them in the interim until we get a newly architected system.

00:11:56   So there is a new Mac Pro. It is not happening in 2017. There is a small spec bump on the

00:12:04   existing Mac Pro, but things are happening. And the fact that Apple is addressing this

00:12:11   at all, I think is really exciting and really, really good news. I can continue to summarize,

00:12:17   but I think at this point we should take a moment and start talking. So Marco, let's

00:12:22   start with you. What do you think?

00:12:24   Marco: I have like four pages of notes here of where to begin. I mean, so we will get

00:12:32   get into some of the specifics but just high-level overview I'm incredibly happy

00:12:38   to hear this this is awesome because what this means you know for for a long

00:12:43   time it has seemed you know the the neglect of the Mac Pro has been going on

00:12:49   for three years if you measure it from the trash can but actually the neglect

00:12:54   of the Mac Pro started in 2010 the the well the the last like basically in 2010

00:13:01   was the last new cheese grater revision.

00:13:04   They officially did one in 2012,

00:13:06   but it was really the same thing

00:13:07   with like one more processor option at the top end.

00:13:10   It was actually very similar to what they just did today,

00:13:12   but actually what they did today was even less

00:13:14   because there are no new options.

00:13:15   But the 2012 Mac Pro really wasn't a thing.

00:13:19   The 2010 one was the last cheese grater update that mattered.

00:13:23   - And if you've ever seen the old logo of our show,

00:13:25   by the way, it was a cheese grater Mac Pro

00:13:28   with a little new label stuck on it,

00:13:30   sarcastically because we were waiting for the Mac Pro the new Mac Pros to be announced at WWC we had been waiting for a

00:13:36   While and they did announce new Mac Pros or maybe it was like a press release update or not even on stage

00:13:40   I forget but they were only new, you know conceptually like technically yeah, there's one new configuration is one new CPU

00:13:47   That was the I think that was the very first icon this podcast ever had it was right

00:13:52   and

00:13:53   So this show was founded on dissatisfaction

00:13:57   With the with the offerings of the Mac Pro see it so that people who date it back to the trash can yeah

00:14:01   The trash can has had problems and we'll talk about that

00:14:03   But even as far back in the cheese grater

00:14:05   It seemed like they took everybody off the cheese grater and said, you know, we've been steadily updating this cheese grater for a while

00:14:10   You know every time there's a new CPU upgrading the GPUs every year just like clockwork

00:14:14   But we're not gonna do that anymore and maybe they all went off to make the trash can which is really weird and complicated or maybe

00:14:21   they were just

00:14:22   You know pulling back a little bit and slowing down the updates again

00:14:25   it's hard to know what goes on inside Apple, but this phenomenon of the Mac Pro no longer

00:14:31   being updated steadily is, as Marco said, not a phenomenon that goes back to 2013, it

00:14:38   goes all the way back to 2010, so it's a long time.

00:14:41   Exactly.

00:14:42   And so, clearly one of the reasons why there was a long delay between the 2010 one and

00:14:47   the 2013 redesign, which was really, it was announced in mid-2013, but it wasn't really

00:14:52   available it went for sale in late December of 2013 and wasn't actually

00:14:57   shipped to anybody until the first couple months 2014 so it was you know a

00:15:01   good three and a half years between like July 2010 when that other one came out

00:15:06   and this new one and that was presumably because they were doing this big

00:15:09   redesign and everything and also by the way they they pre-announced the 2013 Mac

00:15:14   Pro mostly because we felt like or Apple felt like it like they had to because we

00:15:19   were waiting and like what's the deal what's the deal with the Mac Pro you did

00:15:22   this update and it was barely an update it was like you know they call that an

00:15:26   update whereas the real new Mac Pro and we were waiting what it then seemed like

00:15:30   such a long time for it they felt like they need to say at WWDC here's the new

00:15:36   Mac Pro and this amazing thing we're like yay finally and said oh by the way

00:15:39   not really like shipping for a long time but but still they like why didn't they

00:15:43   hold it until it was it was somewhat close to shipping because they felt like

00:15:47   you know that whatever dissatisfaction there was among that customer base they

00:15:50   had to reassure them by saying, all right, we're going to announce a thing.

00:15:54   We're going to show you the pictures of it.

00:15:55   Here it is.

00:15:56   We're going to put it in a little glass tube outside of the Presidio at Moscone.

00:16:01   And so you can look at it and see that it's a real thing, but you're not getting

00:16:03   one for months.

00:16:04   But we all felt better because it's like, well, at least we know now that the Mac

00:16:08   Pro isn't dead.

00:16:09   That is not there.

00:16:10   The reason they weren't upgrading the cheese grater is could have been because

00:16:13   they were working on this and this is a fancy new thing and it will be coming

00:16:16   soon.

00:16:16   And I think we all basically felt better about that,

00:16:21   even though there was a delay.

00:16:24   And this current announcement is like,

00:16:26   everything that happened before,

00:16:28   but stretch all the timelines out even farther.

00:16:29   At the time, we thought they don't care about Mac Pro users.

00:16:32   They don't care about the Mac Pro.

00:16:36   And then they released the 2013 one,

00:16:37   and we thought, okay, great.

00:16:39   They released a new one, and this is awesome.

00:16:41   However, it doesn't meet a lot of people's needs

00:16:42   in a bunch of ways that we'll get into in a minute.

00:16:45   And so then that was now, it's been now about the same delay

00:16:49   between 2010 and that one and between that one and now,

00:16:52   you know, about three and a half years or so.

00:16:55   The assumption that we've all been making,

00:16:57   and I totally own this, I have been number one

00:17:01   on the list of complainers on this show at least,

00:17:04   the assumption that we've all been making

00:17:07   is that Apple is being run really just by the numbers

00:17:11   Tim Cook and that, you know, this fairly small product line that is, you know, something

00:17:18   like 1% of Mac sales was just not enough of a blip on the radar for Tim Cook to care about

00:17:26   updating ever again. That is how it seemed until this morning to all of us Mac Pro users,

00:17:33   and that has manifested itself with a number of side effects, one of which I think might

00:17:39   contributed to Apple finally you know getting into gear on doing an update

00:17:42   here is that when the MacBook Pro was updated last fall the 2016 MacBook Pro

00:17:49   with the touch bar and everything else it was clearly not as well received as

00:17:54   Apple thought it would be there was quite a lot of outcry and part of that

00:17:58   is because of legitimate downsides of that product part of that's temporary

00:18:02   part of it won't be temporary but I think a big part of the of the angst

00:18:06   over the 2016 MacBook Pro was also that pros had been neglected on the desktop for so long.

00:18:13   That not only were they kind of already mad at Apple not serving their needs, but it sure

00:18:20   looked like they were going to have to now wedge their needs into these other products

00:18:25   that weren't very good at serving them.

00:18:28   And so if I had to guess, it was during the 2016 MacBook Pro launch with all this kickback

00:18:35   that Apple finally decided to go ahead

00:18:38   with the new Mac Pro project.

00:18:39   Craig Federighi made some comments during these interviews

00:18:42   that it's been longer than six months

00:18:45   they've been working on it,

00:18:46   but that doesn't mean it had the green light

00:18:48   to go ahead as a product for more than six months.

00:18:51   - I don't think it was long as six months

00:18:52   they've been working on it.

00:18:53   This round table was a bunch of journalists, right?

00:18:55   So the journalists are asking questions,

00:18:57   and one of the big questions that everyone wants to know

00:19:00   is we out here in the community

00:19:05   who are interested in the Mac Pro have been upset about it

00:19:07   for a long, long time.

00:19:09   How did it come to pass that so much time elapsed

00:19:14   between the 2013 Mac Pro and now, and there was nothing,

00:19:18   literally no updates, no price changes,

00:19:20   no announcement or anything.

00:19:22   And then just now you call a round table?

00:19:24   So everyone wants to know the timeline.

00:19:26   How long ago did you decide

00:19:29   that this was a thing you were gonna do?

00:19:30   And they did it like, well, it's not like

00:19:32   there's any one decision or one meeting.

00:19:33   and each of us went through our own journey

00:19:36   of like deciding, what was it, quick fitteries,

00:19:39   we went through like denial and acceptance.

00:19:41   So I can imagine there were people like,

00:19:43   well, like the denial thing would be like,

00:19:45   well, the new Mac Pro is weird and all,

00:19:47   and people complain,

00:19:48   but I bet if we just leave it out there,

00:19:50   people will come to accept it as the new way

00:19:53   that Pro hardware is going to work on the desktop.

00:19:55   And then eventually I have to say,

00:19:56   you know, it looks like they're not really accepting it.

00:20:00   And so the six month thing seems to me

00:20:01   of a timeline of like when when did you come to this realization they never actually answered

00:20:06   how did you go so many years with like basically your heads in the sand right because that's why i

00:20:11   mean just two shows ago i was asking us all if we had consensus that basically there's not going to

00:20:16   be another new mac pro there's just going to be an iMac pro which by the way there will be and they

00:20:20   talked about it um you know basically an iMac uh bent towards pro people because look if there was

00:20:25   going to be a new mac pro they wouldn't have left this one there for like four years with no updates

00:20:30   right? Like surely they wouldn't do that. With no communication or whatever, and it's like at a

00:20:36   certain point they're communicating to you by saying, "We updated the iMac." You know,

00:20:40   dropping the Apple monitors and sort of back channel communicating to some journalist somewhere

00:20:48   that, "Hey, Apple's not doing monitors anymore," and offering the LG one. That's another big sign.

00:20:52   Like, "The iMac, it's the future," right? And so we were just all like, we were in the acceptance

00:20:58   or at least I was like, well, you know, no more Mac Pros.

00:21:02   And we all wanna know that because we all kind of wanna

00:21:05   like be, you know, vengeful and say,

00:21:07   how could you have made this mistake?

00:21:08   Because on the one hand, we're all ecstatic

00:21:11   that the announcement they made was not,

00:21:13   hey, by the way, we just wanna let you know

00:21:15   we're not making the Mac Pro anymore.

00:21:17   Like we wanna make it official.

00:21:18   That could have been what they said at this meeting.

00:21:20   This meeting could have also been, you know,

00:21:22   where we're just giving up on the Mac.

00:21:24   Like the most pessimistic ideas of what could it mean

00:21:27   to go to a Mac roundtable, an ominous sounding Mac roundtable, if you were accepting there

00:21:32   was going to be no Mac Pro, it could have been like terrible bad news. Instead it was

00:21:34   good news, but the good news just immediately makes you ask the question, "What took you

00:21:40   so long?" And that's the question that, you know, "When did you figure it out? Like, what

00:21:44   was your plan before six months ago? What were you doing? Like, what's another year,

00:21:48   guys? This current Mac Pro that we never update will, you know..."

00:21:53   It's going to set the world on fire. Just wait.

00:21:55   Yeah, right.

00:21:56   And so they didn't-- they're not going to go into, like, you know, their deliberation

00:22:00   process and, you know, because they don't really realize stuff.

00:22:02   But they did go into a couple of aspects of, like, why is the current trash can-- why didn't

00:22:09   you ever update it?

00:22:11   And so Craig Federighi had said-- this is a quote from him-- "I think we designed ourselves

00:22:15   into a bit of a thermal corner."

00:22:17   And he was talking about the design of the trash can, which is a big cylinder.

00:22:21   And inside the cylinder is kind of like three boards, three vertical boards that make a

00:22:24   triangle shape if you're looking down on top of it two of them are GPUs and one of them is a CPU board

00:22:28   he was saying that the uh this is quoting from uh matt panzerino's article the unique triangular

00:22:34   design of the mac pro's thermal core provided proved to be the limiting factor um it wasn't

00:22:38   built to have for one of the three sides of the triangle to get super hot so if they if they wanted

00:22:42   to have a really hot GPU on one side and then cooler parts it was supposed to be like equal

00:22:46   distribution of heat from the two mid range you know mid heat GPUs and the CPU on the other side

00:22:52   But basically I think the problem is the little cylinder with the one fan on top,

00:22:55   there was just not enough cooling capacity unless you probably crank that fan up to the point where

00:22:59   they didn't like it. But the story they gave was they couldn't update it. Like the faster GPUs

00:23:07   they could have put in there, it couldn't handle a thermal load, maybe even also the CPUs.

00:23:10   And Federighi also emphasized that this wasn't like someone had an idea to make a trash can

00:23:17   shaped computer and then they just put all their marbles in that basket without thinking about it.

00:23:20   There's another quote from Federiga.

00:23:22   Federighi, "We didn't start with a shape and say,

00:23:24   "Well, here's the fastest machine we can put in that box.

00:23:27   "We actually started with a target for performance

00:23:28   "and came up with what we think was a very clever design

00:23:31   "for that thermal core and thermal architecture."

00:23:33   So they had a target of like two GPUs with lots of cores

00:23:38   and one CPU, and then they tried to figure out,

00:23:42   which again, you can say was one of their mistakes,

00:23:46   what is the smallest, quietest thing we can get that in?

00:23:49   They emphasize that in the 2013 Mac Pro launch.

00:23:51   Look how much smaller this trashcan Mac Pro is

00:23:55   than the giant cheese grater.

00:23:56   I remember when they put up the image

00:23:57   of the two things next to each other, it looked fake.

00:23:59   It was like, what is that, an airport hub next to a Mac Pro?

00:24:04   No, that's the new Mac Pro.

00:24:05   It seemed impossibly small compared to the size

00:24:08   of the cheese grater.

00:24:09   And they did, they made it, packaging-wise,

00:24:11   it is super quiet and super small

00:24:13   compared to a tower computer.

00:24:16   And of course, they sacrifice all the internal storage

00:24:18   and all the other stuff,

00:24:18   that basically by making that design and all the tooling and all that fancy factory in the US that

00:24:23   makes all this stuff and you know all the money they put into that the story they gave was that

00:24:28   basically they couldn't update it because none of the better stuff that they could fit in there

00:24:33   could be cooled inside that case so they had to design a new one but they didn't they just they

00:24:38   i don't know what they did they just sat on their hands for several years mulling over what to do

00:24:43   all the while continuing to sell that thing until they finally came to this realization so

00:24:48   I don't, you know, again we have to wait for people to retire and get the tell-all books, but

00:24:51   something went wrong inside Apple. Something went wrong with the Mac Pro because it is

00:24:58   not a good look to sell the same computer for the same price for so many years. And it's also

00:25:02   not a good look to only realize your mistake many, many, many years later. Way, way too late.

00:25:10   So late, in fact, that you are forced to do a thing that Apple never ever does, which is

00:25:15   call a bunch of journalists together and tell them about a computer you're going to release

00:25:19   in the next year, like not this calendar year. Like, A, let me tell you about something that's

00:25:24   not released yet. We can't even show you a picture of it. And B, it's not going to be released this

00:25:28   year. They also, by the way, didn't say as far as they were able to determine that it's going to be

00:25:32   released next year. All they said is not this year. And everybody's like, oh, that totally

00:25:36   means next year. Probably does, but they're covering their bases. And so that means that

00:25:41   that says to me that they decided very, very, very recently

00:25:46   on the sort of the no go, no go on the Mac Pro,

00:25:50   because if they had come and said,

00:25:52   guys, we just wanna tell you,

00:25:53   there's not going to be another Mac Pro.

00:25:57   That would make perfect sense,

00:25:58   'cause it's like, well, we debated for a long time,

00:26:00   while we debated, we kept selling this thing,

00:26:02   but in the end, we're, you know, it's down the toilet,

00:26:06   down the toilet with the trashcan.

00:26:08   No more Mac Pros, the iMac is the future,

00:26:10   We just want to let you know and let's talk about it and let's explain to you why we think pros can use this other stuff

00:26:15   Or whatever because at least that would make sense for the trajectory instead

00:26:18   They hemmed it hard for four years realized the error of their ways, which is good

00:26:23   But realized it's so late that they have nothing to say to us except

00:26:27   We will we will make good and I'm glad they did what of course. I'm glad that they're they're gonna do this

00:26:33   I love the Mac Pro

00:26:34   I'm glad they went into specifics instead of saying we're going to make new pro hardware

00:26:39   They went into specifics by saying this new pro hardware will be modular in their parlance

00:26:44   There will be a separate monitor and a separate computer

00:26:47   So it's not gonna be like oh there's gonna be an awesome iMac you like no

00:26:50   They said that is a separate thing where we are gonna do a newer iMac with fancier stuff that pros might like but also

00:26:54   There's this thing which is modular and we're gonna make our own displays

00:26:58   which so recently they seem to be moving away from and I guess because they want me not to wake in the middle of the

00:27:05   night and

00:27:06   tremble in fear of having to get a non-apple monitor, they're going to make an apple monitor.

00:27:09   And the final point they made is whatever this design is, which they didn't go into details

00:27:15   about, we're going to make sure that with this design we can upgrade the internals on some kind

00:27:23   of schedule other than never ever upgrading them. Right, so those are the few bits of information

00:27:27   they gave about this. I get the impression that the same brief that they gave these journalists

00:27:32   was given to Apple's newly formed team not too long ago to say, "We need a Mac Pro. Needs

00:27:38   to be modular. We need a new Apple monitor. And we don't want the same thing that happened

00:27:42   with the trashcan to happen with this. We need the internals to be upgradeable on a

00:27:45   reasonable schedule." All of that is music to my ears because those are all the things

00:27:48   I want to hear. Like the only thing they could have said more was like, "We're going to have

00:27:55   multiple internal drives and multiple internal slots." They didn't say that, and I doubt

00:27:59   They will do that, but that's the only other thing that I could have even asked for in my wildest dreams

00:28:04   I am very very happy

00:28:05   But also very disappointed in Apple because they know what they did they done goofed

00:28:11   Yeah, they they did not do well on this whole Mac Pro thing. I'm glad but I'm glad they came

00:28:19   You know, I they messed up like they even said it themselves. They apologized. They said sorry, when does Apple ever do that because

00:28:26   It's not a coherent

00:28:29   thing like it it would be coherent if they said we slowly phase out the Mac Pro and it disappeared and

00:28:34   Let me tell you why we're not gonna be in that business anymore, but to

00:28:38   Neglect the Mac Pro like that and then have a change of heart at the very last minute

00:28:42   Certainly better from my perspective than not having a change of heart. That's not good for the company

00:28:47   It's not good for the image. It's not good for the pros

00:28:48   It's not good for Apple that they have to pre announce this product which is not a comfortable position for Apple to be in

00:28:52   So this was this was kind of a

00:28:58   example of Apple being humble and coming hat in hand and saying

00:29:02   We're sorry. We messed up this Mac Pro thing

00:29:06   Let us make it up to you by doing all the good things for you

00:29:09   And that's why everybody's happy because you know happy and also curious about what went along

00:29:13   But but happy to see that the result we all wanted is the result

00:29:17   We're going to get if we just wait a little bit longer

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00:31:24   (upbeat music)

00:31:27   - So here's the thing, like on the whole, I agree with you.

00:31:32   And even as someone who sitting here now

00:31:34   doesn't foresee ever buying a Mac Pro,

00:31:37   I'm excited about this, I really am.

00:31:39   Like I joked a lot on Twitter about,

00:31:41   oh God, this episode's gonna be terrible.

00:31:43   But no, I'm actually excited to talk about it

00:31:45   because this is good for everyone

00:31:48   when Apple commits to the professional market.

00:31:52   It's good for me as, by some definition, a professional

00:31:56   because I think they actually cited Xcode

00:31:59   as one of the apps they consider to be a professional app

00:32:02   and one of the apps they look for in their analytics

00:32:04   to see who's a professional and who isn't.

00:32:06   But anyway, I definitely unequivocally think

00:32:11   that this was way, way, way too late.

00:32:16   But I don't know, a lot of people on Twitter

00:32:18   We're jumping straight to like, "Oh, Apple is just..."

00:32:21   You know, they weren't doing anything until yesterday,

00:32:25   and then they finally decided to do something.

00:32:28   I think it's unfair for us to assume how long it takes to build an entire new computer with

00:32:35   an entirely new design from the ground up.

00:32:38   I agree that they should have started on this a while ago.

00:32:41   I agree that we should never have gotten to this point.

00:32:45   But I think it's a bit presumptuous for us to just assume they can go to some parts bin

00:32:50   somewhere, throw a few things together, and call it good.

00:32:53   I think that we're perhaps assuming the worst where it may not be necessary.

00:32:58   This should have absolutely happened at least a year ago, if not two.

00:33:02   But it doesn't mean that they didn't start work on it a year ago, if not two.

00:33:06   What if they just didn't feel compelled to tell us about it until now?

00:33:11   Because a bunch of whiners, like those guys on ATP, God, what a bunch of whiners the three

00:33:15   of them are.

00:33:16   What if a bunch of whiners just got to the point that they felt like they needed to address

00:33:21   it once and for all?

00:33:22   Yeah, I, I, you know, we can put a lot where we think the decision was made to do something

00:33:28   different, but it's got to be pretty recent.

00:33:31   I mean, just use the LG monitor as an example.

00:33:34   The monitor for most people is a sideshow here.

00:33:36   For me, it's like the main show because I can tell you that if they, if they had said

00:33:41   we're gonna make a new Mac Pro, but we're still not making Apple monitors, I would still be like,

00:33:45   maybe we'll get an iMac, right? That's just me personally, right? But very recently, as recently

00:33:50   as when was it like? October? I don't know, whenever they came out with the new Mac Pro Pros

00:33:56   with the LG display, right? And they talked to the press about it and the press would ask them,

00:34:00   so, you know, should we get an Apple monitor? We're like, no, this LG monitor is the one we want,

00:34:06   it's on our store, we're fully behind it, so on and so forth. And then through back

00:34:10   channel communication to someone on Twitter to say basically Apple's out of

00:34:13   standalone display business. This is recent stuff. If, as you suggested Casey,

00:34:18   that perhaps they've been working on this new Mac Pro for over a year, there's

00:34:21   no way they would have told everybody that Apple's out of the standalone

00:34:26   display business through whatever back channels they did. Maybe they still would

00:34:29   have said buy the LG one anyway because the new Apple monitor isn't coming out

00:34:33   for a long time, but yeah there are long lead times in these things, but not... it

00:34:38   it doesn't take three years to make a monitor, right?

00:34:40   Like the time was when Apple would make new products

00:34:43   every year and yeah, they have overlapping schedules

00:34:45   and stuff like that, which by the way is why I think

00:34:48   the time that Apple needs to start making the next trashcan

00:34:50   is before the previous one is released.

00:34:52   Like that's usually how these things overlap.

00:34:53   Like the new iPhone is in the works at the time

00:34:56   that the current iPhone is released.

00:34:58   That's the only way you could have

00:34:59   UGLE releases of anything, right?

00:35:01   So it's not as if you can release the trashcan, right?

00:35:04   In late 2013.

00:35:06   And then after the trash cans release,

00:35:08   start working on the next one,

00:35:09   you're already late at that point.

00:35:11   Let alone release the trash can, wait a year or two,

00:35:14   and then start working on the successor.

00:35:16   That's just too long.

00:35:17   If you're, one of the things that,

00:35:18   the commitments of the pro market,

00:35:19   and it's what they talked about is,

00:35:22   you have to have a product that you can update.

00:35:25   Because the whole point of this product is,

00:35:27   the biggest, fastest computer Apple sells.

00:35:31   And if you don't update it,

00:35:34   Eventually your phone has faster single-threaded performance than that. You know, I mean like in the most extreme case you you have to update it

00:35:41   It's the role of this computer

00:35:42   The only reason it exists is to be the biggest fastest thing as soon as it's not biggest fastest people like well

00:35:47   Why am I buying this?

00:35:47   Why don't I buy a 13-inch laptop that has a better CPU speed or a faster SSD or has you know?

00:35:54   Thunderbolt 3 and this top-end thing doesn't like it loses its purpose without updates. So

00:35:59   They were super duper late and it seems to me that if they can't even promise a 2018 release of this thing

00:36:06   They started sometime

00:36:08   You know in in the past year

00:36:11   Oh easily you may maybe in the past six months because it's not like the thing we're asking about

00:36:17   When did they make the call?

00:36:18   When did they make the decision because they seem to make no decision for a really really long time and then they made a decision

00:36:23   And part of that decision was given that we made this decision

00:36:27   Look at our timelines. When will we actually be able to show a product?

00:36:30   It will hurt us a lot to just do the normal Apple thing

00:36:34   Which is not telling anybody until the product comes out because by then everyone will completely have written off Apple as a pro hardware vendor

00:36:41   So we need to make a decision and then the even harder decision

00:36:45   We're just now we have to tell people we have to tell people that we kind of started this new project because if we don't

00:36:49   By the time we release it, they'll all be gone. They all will have left

00:36:52   So be like hey guys, we have a new Mac Pro

00:36:54   We didn't want to tell you about it for the past year and a half that we've been developing it

00:36:56   but we totally have a new one.

00:36:57   It's like too late, we all left, you neglected us, right?

00:37:00   So they had to come out and tell us

00:37:02   that at some point in the future,

00:37:04   defined as not this year, there will be a new Mac Pro,

00:37:07   which was the right thing to do.

00:37:09   But it is them coming from a position of weakness.

00:37:12   And it makes me think that this decision was not made

00:37:15   and that the team to make this new Mac Pro

00:37:17   was not tasked with doing so

00:37:19   anytime longer than maybe like 12 months ago.

00:37:24   And I would guess maybe six months ago.

00:37:26   - Yeah, I would say that's, 'cause like, you know,

00:37:28   we know from various like tips and rumblings here and there

00:37:32   that like there were occasional efforts in Apple

00:37:36   to investigate new Zeons and stuff,

00:37:39   but that there was never any suggestion by anybody,

00:37:42   any rumors, any tips or anybody

00:37:44   that that was actually becoming a product for, you know,

00:37:47   and you were close to a product.

00:37:49   I really do think that this probably

00:37:52   became a priority six months ago.

00:37:53   - And that's how they determined, by the way,

00:37:55   That's how they determined probably their thermal limits.

00:37:58   Like they had the cylinder and we kept hearing rumors

00:38:01   from all sorts of weird sources like,

00:38:03   "Oh, they're looking at this chip.

00:38:04   "Oh, they're looking at that chip.

00:38:05   "They're looking at this GPU."

00:38:06   Like maybe they tried all sorts of like component upgrades

00:38:10   to the trashcan and every time they tried it,

00:38:12   it was either not a big enough win

00:38:13   or they couldn't deal with the thermals, right?

00:38:16   And it was just kind of like,

00:38:16   "Well, do we wanna bother going through with this?

00:38:19   "Should we make it a product?

00:38:20   "Maybe wait for next year.

00:38:21   "Maybe it'll be better.

00:38:22   "We have these problems."

00:38:23   Like Federighi's explanation is basically like they couldn't put better stuff in that

00:38:28   cylinder.

00:38:29   They had designed ourselves into a bit of a thermal corner and the fact that they continued

00:38:37   to try to tinker with that every time there was a new CPU or GPU but never actually released

00:38:42   anything fits with that idea.

00:38:44   It wasn't like they were opposed to making new Mac Pros.

00:38:48   They couldn't make new Mac Pros without a major investment and they come back and say,

00:38:51   "Well, we can't put new stuff in this cylinder.

00:38:54   Sorry about that.

00:38:55   Oops, can we make a totally new Mac Pro?"

00:38:57   And then it was like, "Well, that seems like expensive

00:39:01   and not a lot of people buy this."

00:39:02   And they just kept doing that and doing that.

00:39:03   And you know, externally, we see nothing.

00:39:05   We just, you know, we have the same Mac Pro as always

00:39:07   and just a bunch of, you know, rumors.

00:39:10   And eventually has to come to a head and say,

00:39:12   "Look, are we in this business

00:39:13   or are we not in this business?"

00:39:14   And the decision that they made,

00:39:16   which I'm very happy with is,

00:39:17   "Yes, we are in this business.

00:39:19   We're gonna rededicate ourselves.

00:39:21   and we're not gonna make the same mistake twice.

00:39:23   Nobody puts new Mac Pro in a corner, in a thermal corner.

00:39:26   (laughing)

00:39:28   And that's--

00:39:28   - Reference acknowledged.

00:39:30   - Yeah, so, boy, it's, I would not want to have been

00:39:35   in these meetings, but I am so glad,

00:39:37   I'm so glad that they made, I can't even say

00:39:39   it's the right decision, I don't know if it's the right

00:39:41   decision for Apple, but it's the decision that I wanted.

00:39:43   Actually, yes I can, I think it is the right decision

00:39:45   for Apple, because if Apple's not gonna be

00:39:47   in the pro market, then what the hell's the point of Apple?

00:39:50   like, which is gonna be a phone company,

00:39:51   I think that's not the Apple we all believe in,

00:39:54   and it's clearly not the Apple that all the people

00:39:57   who come to these meetings and profess

00:39:59   undying love for the Mac believe in either.

00:40:01   - Well, and I think it's more than that.

00:40:03   It's that, like, if Apple decides that iOS

00:40:06   is the only OS in their future, then that's one thing.

00:40:09   But if the Mac, as a platform, is going to continue,

00:40:13   they need to keep building pro hardware.

00:40:16   - Yeah, I mean, but is the iMac pro enough?

00:40:19   I think we'll talk about that more later. But the one thing that that strikes me about this like I

00:40:23   Suspect you guys are right and that it was very recent in the last 12 months or so that that Apple got really serious

00:40:30   About replacing the Mac Pro, but it seems a little disingenuous to me for us to say

00:40:36   Oh, surely they have Mac OS running on ARM, you know, surely they're doing that. Why would they not?

00:40:42   I mean, I know hardware is different

00:40:44   But don't you think they would have been doing more than just piddling with a new Mac Pro for all this time?

00:40:51   Maybe there were only a handful of people on it

00:40:53   Maybe they weren't taking it too seriously

00:40:55   But if I feel like why wouldn't you at least have that in the hopper just in case now?

00:41:00   To your point a minute ago both of you

00:41:02   Maybe that didn't start until like two years ago or one year ago or what have you but I feel half a year ago

00:41:08   Well, that's not gonna be not gonna be two years ago

00:41:11   They would be they would be done by now if it was two years ago, especially since this like in the I know

00:41:15   So here's the thing. There's a tension with Apple between

00:41:17   Make an amazing new thing

00:41:20   Which I think trash can qualify as I like and you haven't seen a PC like this before look at this thing

00:41:24   Isn't it weird and crazy and awesome?

00:41:25   Like they want to do that, but then there's schedule pressure

00:41:28   So as many people pointed out they can make a rectangular box with nice finishes on it shove a bunch of crap in it

00:41:33   And be done, but they don't want to do that

00:41:34   So they're going to take longer than it would take to just slap together some basically a PC that runs Mac OS, right?

00:41:40   The question is how much longer will they take and if they had started two years ago even with the most obsessive

00:41:47   You know

00:41:49   Apple craftsmanship they could they could have had something to show today, right? So that makes me think again

00:41:55   They had to have started this in the last calendar year

00:41:58   You know, that's the longest I'm gonna say this goes back and probably even closer. Yeah, and so I think it's also worth

00:42:06   kind of putting the 2013 trashcan in context a little bit

00:42:10   to figure out like why they still care

00:42:14   and maybe what they can do to avoid another problem like this

00:42:19   so in addition to the reasons that John always likes to say

00:42:23   about like you know the Halo car analogy

00:42:25   and everything else which I agree with.

00:42:27   So it actually sells better than I thought.

00:42:29   So one of the things that came out in this meeting

00:42:31   with this said that desktops are 20% of max sales

00:42:34   which that alone is higher than I would have guessed.

00:42:38   Laptops are most people's computers these days,

00:42:41   so the fact that desktops still have 20%

00:42:44   is pretty good, I think.

00:42:46   They said that the Mac Pro is in the low

00:42:49   single digit percentage of those Mac sales.

00:42:52   If that's 1%, which is the lowest that their estimate

00:42:56   would really mean, that is about 200,000 Mac Pros a year.

00:43:01   Now that I think is like 1% of Mac sales and 200,000,

00:43:06   I think that's actually really good for,

00:43:08   'cause that's not the sales of the Mac Pro

00:43:11   in its launch year when it's updated,

00:43:14   that's the sales of the Mac Pro now.

00:43:16   Like this three year old lame duck machine,

00:43:19   that's the sales of that now.

00:43:22   So I think it's remarkable that it still sells that well.

00:43:25   And that says that the market for these things

00:43:28   is probably bigger than a lot of us were estimating.

00:43:32   Because if this machine that's three years old

00:43:34   and wasn't even that compelling when it was new

00:43:37   for various reasons, I'll get into it in a second,

00:43:38   if that can still sell 200,000 units a year, that's amazing.

00:43:43   And so I decided to look up a couple of stats,

00:43:47   I did some homework, that is roughly--

00:43:49   - What?

00:43:51   - That is roughly equivalent, I translated this

00:43:52   into terms you understand, Casey,

00:43:54   to the sales volume of the BMW X5.

00:43:57   (laughing)

00:43:59   - Well done, well done.

00:44:00   - That's roughly what the X5 sells every year worldwide.

00:44:03   And that's a fairly popular model in their lineup.

00:44:06   So the fact that a car can,

00:44:09   oh and by the way, it's also double

00:44:11   the total sales volume of Tesla.

00:44:13   (laughing)

00:44:15   So if it's selling in this kind of volume,

00:44:19   if a car company can justify having a car,

00:44:22   an entire car model with all the customization

00:44:24   that goes into that and support and everything else,

00:44:26   Apple can justify having a machine that only sells

00:44:28   to this relatively small audience

00:44:31   compared to their whole product line.

00:44:33   - Well, but what's the profit off of each of these devices?

00:44:36   You know, the profit off of an X5, one would hope,

00:44:38   would be many, many, many thousands of dollars.

00:44:40   What's the profit off a trash can Mac Pro?

00:44:43   - Oh no, I mean, no question.

00:44:44   The raw, well actually, I wouldn't assume

00:44:47   that the profits are that massive on cars,

00:44:49   maybe on luxury cars, especially if you get the floor mats,

00:44:52   But I think the costs of developing a new Mac Pro line,

00:44:56   especially if it's kind of reasonably done,

00:45:02   are probably low enough compared to developing a whole car.

00:45:05   I think they're probably okay there.

00:45:09   But anyway, I did wanna briefly go into exactly

00:45:13   what went wrong with 2013 Mac Pro,

00:45:16   so that we and as commentators,

00:45:19   and hopefully if anybody at Apple is listening,

00:45:22   I assume, you know, they're all smart people,

00:45:23   they're considering these things too,

00:45:25   but I just wanna say it just in case,

00:45:26   'cause I think there's important lessons to learn here,

00:45:29   and I really hope they have learned them.

00:45:32   So, quick summary, when the 2013 came out,

00:45:35   it cost more than the previous model,

00:45:38   but it accommodated fewer people's needs.

00:45:41   And so that'll, even when it was brand new,

00:45:44   on day one, once all the configs and pricing were up,

00:45:48   a lot of people did not like it very much,

00:45:50   and a lot of pros said, "Ooh, never mind,"

00:45:52   because it was so much more limited

00:45:54   than the previous ones.

00:45:55   It gave up all the drive bays, all the slots,

00:45:58   a lot of the RAM expansion capabilities,

00:46:00   GPU replaceability, GPU options, dual CPU,

00:46:05   dual socket options.

00:46:06   There was so much stuff that was given up.

00:46:09   So it really did a lot less, and it cost more.

00:46:13   And so that's like, whatever Apple does next,

00:46:16   they have to learn a lesson from that.

00:46:18   Whether they choose to follow it or not,

00:46:20   something to learn. Also it also suffered from just kind of bad market timing

00:46:25   relative to the rest of the industry so almost immediately the 5k screen right

00:46:31   you know revolution happened it was like it was like nine months into the Mac Pro

00:46:35   when when 5k screens came out in the iMac and the Mac Pro has no good way to

00:46:40   drive a 5k screen and and Apple doesn't sell one stuff and and when they did

00:46:45   finally get around to launching one last fall it doesn't work with 2013 Mac Pro

00:46:49   at least, we keep hearing random hacks about how

00:46:52   the stores are kind of hacking it to work,

00:46:54   but basically it doesn't work.

00:46:57   And so it missed the 5K revolution by a very short time.

00:47:01   And a lot of pros, like myself, prioritized having

00:47:06   that retina screen over having those additional cores

00:47:08   and everything.

00:47:09   Also, right after that model came out,

00:47:11   the next generation of processors that Apple,

00:47:14   of course, didn't use, increased single-threaded

00:47:16   performance noticeably.

00:47:18   And so what happened was, within a very short time

00:47:20   of the Mac Pro being released, within about a year,

00:47:23   it was unable to drive the best screens

00:47:25   that the highest end buyers wanted,

00:47:27   and it was defeated in a lot of single-threaded

00:47:31   performance tasks and a lot of benchmarks.

00:47:33   It was either beaten completely,

00:47:36   or in the case of the 6-core,

00:47:38   it could barely edge out in multi-threaded,

00:47:41   but that wasn't all work.

00:47:43   So it badly timed in the market.

00:47:46   - Don't forget about USB-C.

00:47:48   One more revolution that happened across the product line.

00:47:50   USB-C also came along and guess who didn't get that?

00:47:53   The Mac Pro.

00:47:54   Like terrible timing in terms of peripheral.

00:47:56   Like it wouldn't have been terrible timing

00:47:57   if it was on a yearly update schedule.

00:47:59   It'd be like, oh, next year the Mac Pro will get updated,

00:48:01   it will get the new chips, it will get USB-C,

00:48:03   it will get Thunderbolt 3,

00:48:05   it will be able to drive a 5K display.

00:48:07   But again, the thermal corner.

00:48:10   Apparently they just plain couldn't do that.

00:48:13   - Exactly.

00:48:14   And then also, by limiting it to a single CPU

00:48:18   and dual GPU configuration,

00:48:20   they were making a big bet that this is going to be

00:48:25   the future of pro computing.

00:48:26   Unfortunately, it wasn't the present of pro computing

00:48:29   at the time, and the future took a different direction.

00:48:32   And they were betting that just having this one set

00:48:35   of trade-offs, this one CPU, two workstation GPUs,

00:48:40   that was gonna solve all pro needs,

00:48:42   These are all needs of the Mac Pro customers, at least.

00:48:44   That was wrong even in 2013, and it never became correct.

00:48:49   They were betting big on OpenCL,

00:48:51   and that really didn't pan out beyond

00:48:53   a very small number of specialized uses.

00:48:56   And they never really supported it very well

00:48:58   in Mac OS either.

00:49:01   And so I think another lesson to learn here

00:49:03   is that whatever direction the Mac Pro takes,

00:49:07   it can't rely on highly specialized OS features very much,

00:49:12   because chances are it's never gonna have the priority

00:49:16   within Apple and the engineering priority

00:49:19   to devote a lot of engineering time

00:49:21   to optimizing the OS for this machine

00:49:23   that sells to 1% of the user base.

00:49:25   Like, they're never gonna do that.

00:49:27   So it can't depend on weird, like,

00:49:31   edge case technologies like OpenCL has turned out to be.

00:49:36   If it can handle it well, that's one thing,

00:49:37   that can't be the main focus of the machine.

00:49:39   They did do a lot of OS changes to support the dual GPUs,

00:49:43   because remember one of them was like,

00:49:44   "Oh, you could address them individually and use one for compute and one for graphics."

00:49:48   And they have that whole demo of the 3D application that Pixar was using.

00:49:51   So they actually added OS APIs to make it so that people could write programs

00:49:56   to take advantage of this machine.

00:49:57   But the only way anybody, like any pro app vendor,

00:50:01   is going to change their program to take advantage of this new fancy hardware

00:50:07   is if doing so gives them some kind of advantage.

00:50:10   Like, okay, well this is weird hardware.

00:50:12   But Apple gives us APIs and we can address these two GPUs

00:50:16   and control them and do interesting things.

00:50:19   If we do this, if we make this big investment

00:50:21   and rejigger our application and use these new APIs,

00:50:23   what is the payoff?

00:50:24   And if the payoff is performance that still doesn't match

00:50:28   a plain old Windows PC with a big stonking single GPU in it,

00:50:33   well, why would we do that?

00:50:34   Why would we spend all this time rewriting our thing

00:50:36   to get worse performance than we could get

00:50:38   if we just leave our application exactly the way it is

00:50:40   and get a G-Force 1080,

00:50:44   whatever the top of the line thing was at the time,

00:50:47   why would we bother doing that?

00:50:49   So people didn't rewrite their programs,

00:50:51   even though there were APIs,

00:50:53   and those APIs themselves didn't get expanded

00:50:56   and supported and everything

00:50:57   because there was no one writing for them.

00:50:58   So it was an ecosystem that never materialized

00:51:01   for hardware that was never good enough

00:51:03   to justify the investment

00:51:04   and very quickly became embarrassingly not good enough,

00:51:08   as you mentioned.

00:51:09   Every other standard and peripheral and capability

00:51:13   just passed it by, even on Apple's own

00:51:15   infrequently updated machines.

00:51:17   - Right, and they also had execution flaws

00:51:20   even with this one model.

00:51:21   They're talking now about how the thermals

00:51:25   prevented them from updating it very, very well.

00:51:28   The thermals were a problem then too.

00:51:30   This machine, anybody who's ever owned one of these,

00:51:32   or especially anybody who's had to manage

00:51:34   more than one of them, like certain developer studios

00:51:37   or visual effects places that have had multiple

00:51:40   2013 Mac Pros, the GPUs die all the time.

00:51:44   Apple's doing tons of warranty replacements on those.

00:51:46   The only reason it hasn't become like a big known

00:51:49   scandal or thing is because this is a relatively

00:51:52   unpopular product, so not a lot of people have them.

00:51:54   But anyone who does have it knows that there's tons

00:51:57   of GPU overheating problems and they die all the time.

00:52:01   And on top of that, to make a GPU focused machine

00:52:05   that takes this huge bet on GPUs being the future

00:52:09   and then not updating it for three years,

00:52:11   like GPUs change like every nine months.

00:52:14   Like it's a pretty fast moving part of hardware development.

00:52:18   So it was a huge design flaw even then

00:52:21   to design something that could barely cool the GPUs it had

00:52:26   and then with not only apparently no headroom

00:52:28   cool future ones but also to not update this machine at all for three and a half

00:52:33   years at least and probably what's probably gonna end up being four and a

00:52:36   half to five that's a massive just error in just how it was an execution flaw

00:52:42   simple as that I will say though like as much as I bag in this machine like

00:52:48   redesigning the tower like the cheese grater typical PC tower I mean it was

00:52:54   more than typical, it was a really good one,

00:52:55   but redesigning the tower in 2013 was a good idea,

00:53:00   and it remains a good idea today.

00:53:02   They should not just put new components

00:53:06   in the old cheese grater and ship that as the new thing,

00:53:09   because there's lots of old baggage

00:53:12   that is no longer necessary in the PC tower.

00:53:16   So doing a redesign is the right move.

00:53:19   They just didn't do the right one.

00:53:22   They chose a bad redesign.

00:53:23   They went the wrong direction and they admitted that yeah those like my blog post back and before the new Mac Pro in 2013

00:53:30   Begging for them to make a new Mac Pro

00:53:32   The case for a new true Mac Pro successor like everything you said about the the trash can I agree with and you know

00:53:38   It was kind of you know, you could have predicted these mistakes at a time because it didn't suit our needs

00:53:43   But like well, maybe there's other audiences for them. It could have worked out but either way whether it worked out

00:53:47   It didn't they made mistakes. They were there were bad time with 5k displays in USB C and Thunderbolt 3

00:53:52   You can't say that we make fun of the can't innovate anymore my ass the Phil Schiller thing

00:53:58   But that was mostly because they failed to update it. This was right an innovative machine

00:54:03   They tried something new and bold and daring and they were trying to make

00:54:09   The best Mac that there could be it was so different from any other Mac that there ever had been before

00:54:15   And there have been since so different in so many ways that I give them full marks for

00:54:22   doing what I asked them to do, which is try to do your best.

00:54:25   Turns out this wasn't a good idea,

00:54:27   but you can't say they didn't try.

00:54:28   You can't say like, and again,

00:54:30   I would have been more disappointed to say,

00:54:32   oh, here's another cheese grater, right?

00:54:33   Like, 'cause that's not really trying.

00:54:36   That's just kind of a business as usual status quo,

00:54:38   which is better than nothing.

00:54:40   But I do give them full marks for introducing it,

00:54:45   which is why even though I didn't buy one,

00:54:46   I was very happy that it existed.

00:54:48   I was pinning my hopes on,

00:54:49   okay, they're either gonna keep updating this

00:54:51   I'll buy the one that can drive the retina display remember those days when I was talking about that

00:54:54   Mm-hmm and same thing for this new one in the same way

00:54:57   It's like well they could make some kind of rectangular box and sell it and they could get that out sooner

00:55:01   I'm willing to wait for them to try something innovative

00:55:05   They just need to make a different set of trade-offs with this design building on what they've learned

00:55:10   But I totally like the idea of them because if they're just gonna make a box

00:55:14   I know people want them to do that just make me like a rectangular PC that I can run Mac OS on which I'm sure some

00:55:20   people would like, but I want more than that from Apple.

00:55:24   I mean, even the cheese grater is, like you said, Mark,

00:55:26   it's not just a tower case, it is a really cool,

00:55:28   really good, really interesting tower case

00:55:30   that has many innovations inside and out

00:55:33   and turned out to be a good design

00:55:36   that they kept for a long time.

00:55:37   Just do that again, Apple, is that so hard?

00:55:39   Just be successful all the time, that's the deal.

00:55:42   - Well, and I think, looking back, as you said,

00:55:45   they did something, as Federighi said in this interview,

00:55:48   he said, "We wanted to do something bold and different

00:55:49   with the 2013 one.

00:55:51   And he said, "It's good for some,

00:55:53   "but it does not address the full range

00:55:54   "of Mac Pro customers."

00:55:56   And I think this is the nut right here.

00:55:57   Apple is really good at being bold and different.

00:56:01   And they pride themselves on that.

00:56:04   They really try to do that with much of what they do.

00:56:09   The problem is that if you only make

00:56:12   bold and different product line choices,

00:56:15   then the overall product line will suffer,

00:56:17   because you need general purpose products to fill the gaps

00:56:21   and satisfy the most needs.

00:56:24   And the Mac Pro, the purpose of this machine

00:56:27   is to serve a bunch of those edge cases.

00:56:30   And you can't just make one super focused design

00:56:34   like this one CPU, two Pro GPUs, no slots, nothing else.

00:56:37   You can't do that kind of bold and different design

00:56:41   for this particular product line

00:56:42   because all of the different edge cases

00:56:45   that the Mac Pro needs to satisfy

00:56:46   they're all different from each other.

00:56:48   So no single narrow design like this can satisfy them.

00:56:51   The old Mac Pro cheese grater could be configured

00:56:54   in completely different ways,

00:56:56   depending on what the customer needed.

00:56:58   And there was a huge range of what that could do.

00:57:01   And that's the kind of flexibility this product line needs.

00:57:05   Mac Pro buyers, they don't need cool and bold and different,

00:57:09   they need versatile, powerful, and kept up to date.

00:57:13   - And it can be innovative too,

00:57:14   like the Yosemite case.

00:57:16   Before Yosemite was the name of an operating system.

00:57:19   It was a code name for a tower case designed by Apple

00:57:22   that was like, oh, a tower.

00:57:23   It's like a vertical rectangular solid,

00:57:26   but Apple did its thing.

00:57:27   Hey, ours has handles on all four corners,

00:57:29   and ours has a side panel that folds down,

00:57:31   and the motherboard was on the side panel at that point.

00:57:33   Look how easy it is to open this thing up,

00:57:35   and here's the RAM, and here's the GPU,

00:57:37   and you can change your hard drives,

00:57:38   and they use that design for two generations,

00:57:40   the G3 and the G4, and well,

00:57:42   more if you count like a mirror drive door and the wind tunnels and all that other stuff.

00:57:47   And then came the cheese grater with the power Mac G5.

00:57:49   Still four handles, but a different design, aluminum.

00:57:52   And look how easy it is to slide the hard drives in and out.

00:57:54   And there's a little panel that comes off the side and look how much room we have for

00:57:56   fans and the computer controlled fans and all this other stuff.

00:58:00   Like both of those designs were innovative and interesting.

00:58:03   But like Marco was saying, they were modular, they could be configured to different needs.

00:58:09   You could choose what you wanted to put in them and make the computer that you needed.

00:58:13   If instead they had made an innovative, like the G4 Cube is a good example.

00:58:17   The G4 Cube is basically a trash can before it's time.

00:58:20   Here's one computer with one specific set of trade-offs and you can't change those trade-offs

00:58:23   at all and if it doesn't suit your needs, you're out of luck.

00:58:27   The G4 Cube did not do well in the market despite being a cool, cute little computer.

00:58:34   To address the pro market, you either need to have a bunch of different models, each

00:58:37   which satisfies a need or some kind of system that you can configure to serve different

00:58:43   people's needs.

00:58:44   So either they can configure themselves with third-party things or they can configure on

00:58:46   your store by picking from pop-up menus.

00:58:49   How much storage, how many drives, how many GPUs, what kind of GPUs, how much memory,

00:58:53   all those things.

00:58:54   And I think too, like, it's important to recognize when they were designing the trashcan in 2013,

00:59:01   I don't think they necessarily forgot what pros need.

00:59:05   I think they were swayed by both a bit of hubris

00:59:10   and also the times.

00:59:12   Back then, the reason why Phil Schiller said,

00:59:15   can't innovate anymore, my ass,

00:59:17   and the reason that got a huge applause,

00:59:19   besides the fact that it's hilarious hearing that from him,

00:59:21   is that at the time, there was a huge, overwhelming

00:59:26   press and analyst narrative of Apple not being able

00:59:29   to innovate anymore, and that Samsung was doing

00:59:32   all the innovation.

00:59:33   This was a huge thing in 2013,

00:59:35   that Samsung was taking the innovation crown.

00:59:37   And of course, we were all trying to figure out,

00:59:39   what do they mean by innovation, exactly?

00:59:40   But that was a massive thing that everybody was saying

00:59:44   about Apple, the press, the stock people,

00:59:46   everyone was saying, Apple can't innovate anymore.

00:59:48   Samsung's innovating.

00:59:50   And it turned out that all that was was big phones,

00:59:52   'cause Apple didn't have the big phones yet.

00:59:54   Turns out, all Apple needed to do to innovate Samsung

00:59:57   was to make the same size phones that Samsung makes.

01:00:00   But that pretty much solved that problem for them.

01:00:03   But I feel like that narrative really got to them

01:00:06   and that helped sway their decision

01:00:08   into taking a much bigger risk with this product

01:00:11   than they should have.

01:00:12   I think Apple, and maybe this has changed now,

01:00:15   I'm not sure it has,

01:00:16   Apple needs to be confident enough in itself

01:00:20   to release boring products sometimes

01:00:22   when that's actually what certain types of customers need.

01:00:26   And the Mac Pro is the biggest example of that.

01:00:28   Like they can totally do, not only can they,

01:00:30   they should probably do a relatively boring line of Mac Pros because that's like what

01:00:38   comes along with boringness is what pros need.

01:00:43   Yeah, I'm struggling because it's so clear to me how right you are in retrospect, but

01:00:51   if you're Apple and you're looking at what's coming in 2013, which here again, I mean 2013

01:00:57   like forever ago and that's when this thing was that was released oh my god

01:01:00   this is so bad but anyway when you're looking at the future in 2013 and you're

01:01:04   looking at like open CL and all these different options it makes sense to me

01:01:09   to bet the maybe not at the house that's probably a little aggressive but bet big

01:01:14   on open CL and and say you know what this is probably the future and we're

01:01:19   gonna give you the best possible machine that will be as fast as it possibly can

01:01:24   can for that future that is so obviously coming. Unfortunately, that future never came. But

01:01:30   sitting where Apple presumably was sitting in 2013, I think it does make sense to do what they

01:01:39   did. But unequivocally, looking at it in hindsight, you are absolutely correct that the boring machine

01:01:45   was the writer machine. And maybe the cleverness is what Jon was talking about and having a

01:01:49   a motherboard on the door or whatever, or what have you, or making it easily upgradeable

01:01:53   or whatever the case may be. But I don't think we could necessarily fault Apple for the way

01:01:58   they were thinking in 2013, given the facts they had in front of them.

01:02:03   I think you can fault them by saying like, if they thought OpenCL was the future, wouldn't

01:02:08   they have to release a machine that the next year they could make it run OpenCL faster?

01:02:13   And then the year after that they can make it run OpenCL faster? Even if they had kind

01:02:16   of an idea of what the GPU compute future was going to be like. It doesn't seem like

01:02:21   they had a roadmap of like, when this future arrives, we should be poised to make the fastest

01:02:28   thing that you can run OpenCL on year after year. They weren't even poised to do that,

01:02:31   even if it had materialized. By the time this machine slipped, like I said, you can get

01:02:37   a single GPU PC that beat it, right? In the things that people cared about, right? And

01:02:43   people didn't have to rewrite their applications. And they seem to have no plan. I mean, it's

01:02:47   a surprise to me because this type of chimney design where you pull in cool air from the

01:02:50   bottom and exhaust the hot air out the top with a really big fan that goes slowly, I

01:02:55   would think that would have more thermal capacity than it apparently has. So we're taking what

01:02:59   they said in face value that like they had, you know, thermal problems with it and they

01:03:03   couldn't get new stuff in it. That's pretty darn bad. And I have a hard time envisioning

01:03:09   good plan for the Mac Pro that does not include the ability to make it faster

01:03:13   next year and faster the year after that and faster the year after that in an

01:03:16   incremental way because again the whole point of this product is to be the

01:03:19   fastest thing out there and I know what Mark was saying with the boring updates

01:03:23   I wouldn't use that word to characterize it because as far as I'm concerned

01:03:26   having the best performance in the product line is not boring even if it's

01:03:30   not in a in a spiral shaped underwater case right you know or whatever you want

01:03:35   to say is like oh we can put it in a sphere and it rolls around your desk

01:03:38   like whatever, if every year it gets faster and faster,

01:03:42   speed is not boring, capability is not boring.

01:03:45   Like, you know, my renders or compiles

01:03:47   took x amount of time.

01:03:49   If I buy a new one in a year or two years,

01:03:51   they should take x divided by some number amount of time,

01:03:55   it's something that's greater than one, right?

01:03:58   I wanna see things happen faster, and that's not boring.

01:04:01   I think what you're getting at with the boring is like,

01:04:03   be innovative, but don't try to change things

01:04:07   for the sake of changing them.

01:04:08   And I think what they tried to do

01:04:10   is kind of what they tried to do with Final Cut Pro X,

01:04:12   which is let's not be constrained

01:04:15   by what defines pro computers today.

01:04:17   It could be that we are holding on to baggage

01:04:20   that is not actually necessary anymore.

01:04:22   If we start basically from a clean slate and say,

01:04:24   what do our pro users really need?

01:04:27   What can we eliminate?

01:04:28   What is it just there?

01:04:29   Because like, oh, everyone expects to have floppy drives

01:04:32   and parallel ports and whatever.

01:04:33   Like what if we drop things and just leave the essence,

01:04:37   can we get it a simplification?

01:04:39   And they dropped too many things on the wrong things, right?

01:04:43   If they had found the correct essence

01:04:47   and dropped some things but left others,

01:04:49   like, you know, they could have come up

01:04:51   with a better balance and it still could have been

01:04:53   in a cylinder case for all we know,

01:04:54   and it still could have had no internal storage.

01:04:56   Like some of the bets I think were reasonable,

01:04:57   like no 3.5 inch internal base,

01:05:00   no optical drive, obviously, like all those things,

01:05:03   all those things that they removed from the Mac Pro

01:05:05   compared to the cheese grater, those were correct things to drop. It's like you don't have to keep

01:05:10   having three and a quarter inch drive bays, you don't have to have any kind of drive bays. You

01:05:13   can, you know, we see the future as being PCI Express SSDs or, you know, Optane, whatever things

01:05:19   from Intel. That is an example of a simplification that isn't possible if you say super boring,

01:05:25   which is basically like, well, Pro computers got to have a bunch of PCI slots and a bunch of 3.5

01:05:29   inch bays and a bunch of five and a quarter. You'll never, you'll never make anything interesting

01:05:32   there. It's just that they dropped other things as well and it didn't work out. And I think

01:05:37   to, to try to make different trade-offs, we can start talking about what we think a new

01:05:44   Mac Pro as vaguely sketched by Apple's words in this meeting would look like.

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01:07:35   (jazzy music)

01:07:38   I wanted to talk a little bit about the iMac,

01:07:41   because they had some interesting things

01:07:42   to say about that too.

01:07:44   You know, to me, what was probably one of the most

01:07:48   parts of this briefing is that it sounds like

01:07:52   they're not working on one Mac Pro,

01:07:55   that they're working on two different Pro desktops.

01:07:58   One of them is new, like higher end configurations

01:08:02   of the iMac, which is probably why they seem to have

01:08:06   apparently canceled the iMac revision that's been

01:08:09   like mostly done, and you know, like the USB-C

01:08:11   Kaby Lake revision, it seems like they're now

01:08:13   just gonna hold that, maybe until the fall, whenever,

01:08:16   'cause what they said was that there's gonna be

01:08:18   new, more pro configurations of the iMac this year.

01:08:22   So I'm guessing that maybe gets announced every Tuesday,

01:08:26   but probably the fall, and that probably,

01:08:29   whatever iMacs we're gonna come out this past winter

01:08:33   or spring have probably been delayed

01:08:35   to just make one big update then.

01:08:37   Which I'm not sure that's necessarily the right move,

01:08:39   but I see that is typical of Apple,

01:08:40   so that's plausible, right?

01:08:41   But anyway, I wanted to kind of get an idea of

01:08:46   If they're going to do pro configurations of the iMac

01:08:50   and also do a modular Mac Pro,

01:08:53   and we'll talk about what that might mean also,

01:08:56   what would the iMac configurations actually be like?

01:09:00   So I was thinking they could put Xeons in there

01:09:03   to get higher core counts and more PCI lanes and everything,

01:09:06   but I figure that might become a Mac Pro only thing,

01:09:10   so maybe the Intel Extreme series,

01:09:11   like we keep getting told about,

01:09:13   like the X99 boards and the Extreme Edition processors

01:09:16   that have like six to 10 cores,

01:09:19   that are basically Xeon's, but not in official name.

01:09:22   And so they don't have ECC RAM support,

01:09:25   they don't have quite as high of cores as Xeon's do,

01:09:29   and they don't usually max out

01:09:30   at quite as high of clock speeds.

01:09:32   But that would be one way,

01:09:35   like if they wanna keep these two different things,

01:09:38   they have the regular iMac,

01:09:39   which the regular iMac already has usually the fastest,

01:09:43   like typical desktop processors that Intel sells.

01:09:47   GPUs, they have more headroom.

01:09:49   GPUs, they usually use like a low-power desktop GPU

01:09:52   'cause the big honkin', like the 1080 kind of equivalents,

01:09:56   like the big things with the big green plastic fans

01:10:00   from the overclockers, like those GPUs don't fit

01:10:03   in the iMac enclosure, like space or heat-wise.

01:10:06   So if they make the enclosure thicker

01:10:10   and have bigger heat capacity,

01:10:13   maybe larger, slower fans with massive heat sinks somehow.

01:10:17   If they do that kind of thing,

01:10:19   then they could increase the capacity enough

01:10:22   to maybe have at least mid-range desktop class GPUs.

01:10:26   And that could also add more.

01:10:28   But again, how high would that actually be able to go

01:10:33   before it questions the need for the Mac Pro Tower?

01:10:36   So I'm guessing it would probably be obviously limited

01:10:39   just one GPU, but maybe again,

01:10:42   limited to the PC mid-range,

01:10:44   the kind of PC GPUs you can usually get for 200 bucks,

01:10:47   like that kind of class.

01:10:48   And maybe it might have a higher RAM ceiling,

01:10:53   'cause right now the iMac is 32,

01:10:56   maybe the iMac Pro, in finger quotes, goes to 64,

01:11:00   and the Mac Pro goes to 128, stuff like that.

01:11:03   The iMac Pro probably wouldn't have

01:11:05   all of the Thunderbolt bandwidth,

01:11:07   and the Mac Pro has like three Thunderbolt buses.

01:11:11   The new one would probably have a different arrangement,

01:11:13   but suffice to say that they would max out

01:11:15   however many PCI Express lanes and Thunderbolt,

01:11:18   however much Thunderbolt bandwidth they could get,

01:11:21   the Mac Pro would have the most,

01:11:23   and the iMac Pro would probably have closer

01:11:24   to a consumer level of them.

01:11:27   And maybe the iMac Pro would retain older ports for longer,

01:11:32   maybe like if they drop Ethernet, say,

01:11:34   or the SD card or whatever.

01:11:35   I think you've got a better example.

01:11:37   If they drop ethernet off the iMac in the consumer line,

01:11:40   maybe they keep it in the iMac Pro line.

01:11:42   Or if they drop upgradeable RAM out of the consumer line,

01:11:45   maybe that gets kept in the Pro line.

01:11:46   So I think there are ways they can do the iMac Pro

01:11:51   that doesn't interfere with the Mac Pro,

01:11:54   but not only am I very surprised that they're doing two,

01:11:59   but I'm very excited to see what the iMac Pro is,

01:12:01   because that might end up being

01:12:02   the computer that's right for me.

01:12:04   Because I actually don't need a lot

01:12:05   what the Mac Pro offers, I really just need

01:12:08   the massive CPU power.

01:12:10   That being said, as I stare at my 5K iMac

01:12:12   with the horrible image retention,

01:12:15   I'm starting to wonder maybe that would still

01:12:17   go that way anyway.

01:12:19   - The big question with the iMac Pro for me is,

01:12:22   was this product planned before or after they decided

01:12:26   they were doing the new Mac Pro?

01:12:28   Because that really dictates the design.

01:12:29   Because if I think about it in the new world

01:12:31   where they're saying, hey, we're gonna have

01:12:32   a new modular Mac Pro, I think,

01:12:35   well then this iMac with stuff for pro people is just going to be like a little bit faster

01:12:41   internal SSD, you know, Thunderbolt 3, a little bit faster GPU, a little bit faster CPU, all the

01:12:48   same classes, just like better components all around, a new high end, what we used to call

01:12:54   a plain old speed bump, right? But if this new iMac was planned and, you know, because this new iMac

01:13:01   is coming this year, right? So this is not like a distant thing. It's coming this year.

01:13:04   If this new iMac had been planned at a time when Apple was like, "We're not doing the Mac Pro

01:13:09   anymore," and this was going to be their replacement to satisfy everybody, then I start

01:13:14   thinking, "Well, maybe they could put a Xeon in it. Maybe they could put an actual slightly higher

01:13:21   end GPU." All the things that you said, like, "Use the X99 series and use a desktop class GPU."

01:13:25   That's the only reason I think we would get that, and that machine I think makes

01:13:30   less sense for Apple to invest in,

01:13:32   in a situation where they really are making new Mac Pro,

01:13:36   because who in the world would buy that

01:13:38   when they have the option to buy a new modular Mac Pro?

01:13:40   Like if you need that stuff,

01:13:41   if you feel like you need tons of cores

01:13:43   and you need a faster GPU and stuff,

01:13:45   like why wouldn't you go with the modular one?

01:13:47   It's so much better, you know,

01:13:48   'cause then if your monitor does have image retention,

01:13:49   you can just, you know, ship the monitor back

01:13:51   or get a different monitor

01:13:52   instead of chucking the whole machine.

01:13:53   Like all in one is not pro-friendly

01:13:56   in terms of how to configure a system

01:13:58   to your specific needs, right?

01:14:00   So really this machine,

01:14:03   depending on when it was created

01:14:07   and what Apple's plan for it was,

01:14:10   it could end up being this weird one-off

01:14:11   where somehow by some miracle,

01:14:14   we get an iMac with a Xeon in it,

01:14:16   but then that goes away as soon as the new Mac Pro comes,

01:14:18   'cause like what the hell's the plan

01:14:19   of an iMac with a Xeon in it when you've got the Mac Pro?

01:14:21   But for the most part,

01:14:23   I'm thinking that this new iMac will basically be

01:14:26   like the current top of the line 5k iMac,

01:14:28   but every component of it just be a little bit better

01:14:30   and also have Thunderbolt 3.

01:14:32   And I think they could sell that as saying,

01:14:34   this is a iMac that has more appeal to pro users

01:14:38   than the previous one.

01:14:39   But to me, it would just be a speed bump in the old style

01:14:44   where we just took it for granted that every year,

01:14:46   the computers that Apple sells, at the very least,

01:14:49   would have all their components upgraded

01:14:50   to be slightly better.

01:14:51   And every couple of years,

01:14:52   they would get a new generation, kind of like cars,

01:14:54   although they don't tend to get horsepower bumps.

01:14:56   But you know, there's a generation of car

01:14:58   and they improve it year after year after year,

01:15:00   and then there's a new generation.

01:15:01   They used to have them with Max too.

01:15:03   Every year, they would get a little bit faster.

01:15:05   We used to be disappointed in speed bumps.

01:15:06   Remember that?

01:15:07   It was like, oh, they just did a speed bump.

01:15:08   But now we would kill for speed bumps.

01:15:10   Please just make every component,

01:15:11   make every component a little bit faster.

01:15:13   Make, you know, just make everything a little bit better.

01:15:17   And that will hold us over until next year.

01:15:19   Instead they just don't update stuff at all anymore.

01:15:21   So yeah, for the iMac, I'm interested

01:15:26   in what it will be as well,

01:15:27   but the promise of a real new Mac Pro

01:15:31   is probably going to keep me away from an iMac

01:15:34   no matter what.

01:15:35   A real new Mac Pro with an Apple monitor.

01:15:37   The only way I'll end up with that iMac

01:15:38   is if my computer dies, I will get an iMac,

01:15:40   and then I will get the new Mac Pro after that.

01:15:42   But if my little 2008 Mac Pro can hold out,

01:15:46   as I've said, joked about in many past shows,

01:15:48   We can go for the full decade, 2008 to 2018,

01:15:52   10 year service life of a computer.

01:15:55   If I can make it, I will.

01:15:57   And if not, I'll get an iMac.

01:15:59   - Yeah, I think you guys are right

01:16:01   that an iMac Pro would just be more of

01:16:05   whatever the top of the line 5K iMac is.

01:16:08   It would potentially have more ports.

01:16:10   I think Marco, your example of ethernet is a phenomenal one

01:16:13   because I think Apple's itching to get rid of that

01:16:15   for the most part, but a pro user is the kind of person

01:16:19   that would want to move humongous bits of data around.

01:16:21   - Didn't they already get rid of it?

01:16:22   I don't think my 5K iMac has either.

01:16:24   - No, the iMacs still have it.

01:16:26   - Yeah, the iMacs have it.

01:16:27   - I think the Mini still does too,

01:16:28   but who cares about the Mini?

01:16:29   - I gotta go look, I don't think mine does.

01:16:31   Continue talking, I'll be back in a second.

01:16:33   - Jon, I have the most modern 5K iMac, I believe,

01:16:36   and it absolutely has an Ethernet port.

01:16:38   - It definitely still has it, you don't have to check.

01:16:40   - Yeah.

01:16:42   I think it would have more ports, like Marco said,

01:16:44   potentially more RAM.

01:16:45   The other thing I wanted to bring up though is, and I don't know anything about this,

01:16:50   so maybe this is completely bananas, but what about like VR?

01:16:54   So I know that VR is super intensive and it requires just tremendous GPU power, but is

01:17:00   it feasible to have a 5K iMac Pro that maybe does VR?

01:17:05   Because VR is kind of that in-between, right, where you need tremendous hardware, but you

01:17:11   You don't necessarily need to go all the way to a Mac Pro for that sort of thing, do you?

01:17:16   So maybe that's the target, is you could use an Oculus with an iMac 5K or something.

01:17:21   I understand that at last I heard Oculus isn't supporting macOS, but just for the sake of

01:17:26   conversation—

01:17:27   That's because Apple doesn't make any hardware that's fast enough.

01:17:28   And like I said, I don't think you can fit a VR-capable with current VR standards, VR-capable

01:17:34   GPU inside the iMac.

01:17:37   Unless, again, unless the iMac we're talking about was the one that was designed and planned

01:17:43   and executed for an age without the Mac Pro.

01:17:46   Because there's plenty of room back there to add stuff to the back of that monitor.

01:17:49   They could put much more capable cooling.

01:17:51   They have a lot of area, especially between the 5K one.

01:17:53   There's a lot of area behind that monitor to put stuff.

01:17:55   You can spread it out far away from each other.

01:17:57   You can get lots of air flowing over things.

01:17:59   You have tons of options.

01:18:01   But the only way such a thing would exist is if it was something that was supposed to

01:18:05   to be in a lineup that doesn't include the Mac Pro,

01:18:09   and in which case I think it would be a one-off.

01:18:11   - So you think Apple's official message is,

01:18:14   if you ever wanted to do VR, we have an answer for you,

01:18:17   and it's a $5,000 Mac Pro?

01:18:19   - Maybe, I mean, it depends.

01:18:21   I think VR is, right now, even in the PC world,

01:18:25   VR requires the highest-end hardware,

01:18:28   because it's really new,

01:18:29   and it's incredibly taxing on GPUs.

01:18:32   but everything that comes out that's like a new type

01:18:37   of thing you can do with GPUs requires the best GPUs.

01:18:41   And if you look at gaming, which is what VR

01:18:44   is obviously involved with, typically what happens is,

01:18:48   in a few years, more pedestrian GPUs will be able

01:18:52   to handle VR in the same way that today,

01:18:55   you can run a 3D game on a MacBook Pro,

01:18:58   but you maybe just can't turn all the settings up,

01:19:00   so you can't have all the super high resolution,

01:19:02   super high detail levels, things like that.

01:19:04   So VR's gonna be the same way.

01:19:07   Right now it requires these massive things,

01:19:09   but in two years, and Apple's patient.

01:19:13   They're not gonna design a whole new product line

01:19:16   with this iMac Pro that would be only able to do VR

01:19:19   with this massive thing on the back of it,

01:19:22   but then in two years that wouldn't be necessary anymore.

01:19:25   So basically I think that by the time

01:19:29   the new Mac Pro comes out, and we see the kind of stuff

01:19:33   that whatever the new Mac Pro balance with the Pro iMac

01:19:36   and the regular iMac is, I think by the time

01:19:38   that all gets settled out, VR will run fine

01:19:42   on mid-range hardware, and so that question

01:19:45   will be kind of moot.

01:19:46   Now, if you want a really good VR setup,

01:19:49   you're probably gonna want a high-end gaming PC

01:19:52   or the equivalent hardware in a Mac Pro,

01:19:54   but that's a different story.

01:19:55   - We're still early in VR because there is so much

01:19:58   just in resolution. Like it's so grainy, it's like not going back to Doom where the pixels are the

01:20:02   size of boulders, but like you need a high-end rig just to get the current best VR, you know,

01:20:10   goggle setups to show you something that looks incredibly grainy from the perspective of what

01:20:16   you would expect from like a modern 2D regular PC game. So there is a huge amount of capacity for

01:20:23   for a new GPU power that will purely be absorbed by making things less ridiculously dotty.

01:20:28   And it doesn't mean, like, you can be able to do VR as it exists today on a mid-range

01:20:32   system, so at least it will be possible, right?

01:20:34   So you're right about that, that like suddenly it's possible on a mid-range system, but the

01:20:37   appetite for high-end will not go away for a long time, just because, you know, at the

01:20:42   very least you're doing twice the work for VR because you have two different images or

01:20:45   two different eyes, and it just goes up from there in terms of sensor fusion and response

01:20:50   times for getting things to your eyeballs as fast as possible in a very demanding environment

01:20:55   where every millisecond counts.

01:20:58   So that's why I feel like you always need a high-end rig to wring the best out of this.

01:21:01   Either a high-end rig or something like PSVR where it is a purpose-built system that is

01:21:05   not a general purpose computer but that is designed specifically to do VR and that has

01:21:09   strict constraints on latency and frame rates and all that stuff.

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01:22:25   So let's talk about the whole idea

01:22:31   of what is this modular design?

01:22:35   So they mentioned, they were very clear

01:22:37   on a number of times during this briefing

01:22:40   that the new Mac Pro that's coming out

01:22:43   sometime after this year, is going to have a,

01:22:46   quote, modular design.

01:22:48   What does that mean?

01:22:51   One of the things that people online have been

01:22:54   thinking about and asking about and suggesting

01:22:57   and even predicting for the future for years now

01:23:00   is a kind of set of stacked components

01:23:03   that would look kind of like Mac Minis

01:23:05   that you'd stack up and like,

01:23:06   one would be your CPU module,

01:23:08   and one would be your GPU module,

01:23:09   and stuff like that, right?

01:23:11   Here's a storage one.

01:23:11   You kind of like build your own assembled stack of parts,

01:23:16   each one of which is its own independent box

01:23:18   that you could buy and upgrade and customize as needed.

01:23:22   The more I thought about this kind of thing,

01:23:24   the more I think that this is not only not what Apple

01:23:27   probably has in mind, but that it actually might be

01:23:30   terrible and impractical in reality.

01:23:33   - I can't believe you were ever entertaining it enough

01:23:35   to discuss it as a show topic, because you're right.

01:23:37   The people have been talking about this for a year,

01:23:39   'cause it sounds like a cool sci-fi thing.

01:23:42   Kind of in the modern incarnation of this

01:23:44   that people may be more familiar with

01:23:45   is like the Project Era, whatever it was, those phones.

01:23:48   Like we're gonna make a cell phone

01:23:50   by having a bunch of modules that we snap together

01:23:51   and you can pick your camera and you pick your CPU

01:23:54   and your GPU and how much storage and how much battery.

01:23:56   And you'll just be able to build your phone

01:23:58   from a bunch of these little modular capsules

01:24:01   that snap together to build a phone.

01:24:02   It's like, no, it's an interesting idea,

01:24:06   but the tech for that simply does not exist.

01:24:08   And so with the advent of Thunderbolt 3, everyone says,

01:24:11   well, the tech for that does exist.

01:24:13   Everything you just described,

01:24:14   they can get a bunch of Mac Mini type things

01:24:15   and they snap together with the cool Thunderbolt 3 thing.

01:24:17   And I have my GPU and my CPU and my storage,

01:24:20   and it just snaps together.

01:24:22   But it's like, what is that buying you

01:24:24   versus just having a regular computer

01:24:27   that you can pull things in and out of?

01:24:29   Like, what do you get by putting them

01:24:31   in separate little modules?

01:24:32   What does Apple get?

01:24:33   What do you get?

01:24:34   It has always been a pipe dream.

01:24:36   And as the technology comes closer

01:24:38   and it goes from pipe dream to potential reality,

01:24:41   then you have to say, if we could feasibly do it,

01:24:43   what do I get out of it?

01:24:44   And other than it being really cool and futury,

01:24:48   I think we don't get enough out of it

01:24:50   with today's technology for it to be worthwhile

01:24:53   for Apple to even consider this approach.

01:24:55   - Well, and if you even think about

01:24:57   what it would actually be, if you think through,

01:25:00   okay, what would these things actually require?

01:25:02   How would this be sold?

01:25:03   How would it be supported?

01:25:05   So number one, obviously, is how do they connect

01:25:09   to each other, over what kind of interface

01:25:13   do they talk to each other that is actually

01:25:14   fast enough to do this stuff.

01:25:16   And if you're putting a disk on there,

01:25:19   Thunderbolt's fast enough.

01:25:20   But if you're putting a GPU or a CPU,

01:25:23   or things that need lots and lots of bandwidth,

01:25:26   then you're gonna need, either you're gonna have to deal

01:25:29   with the limitations of Thunderbolt,

01:25:33   because Thunderbolt is PCI Express over a cable,

01:25:36   but it is not nearly as much bandwidth

01:25:39   as the internal slots for a GPU and desktop have.

01:25:43   And furthermore, the standards for PCI Express itself

01:25:48   and the Thunderbolt standards, those change every few years.

01:25:53   So you'd have the set of pods,

01:25:55   I guess that's the word I'll use,

01:25:58   you'll have the set of component pods

01:26:00   where there'll all be different speeds

01:26:02   if you mix and match over the years.

01:26:03   And if you're not gonna mix and match over the years,

01:26:05   there's no point in doing this.

01:26:07   Not to mention, every one of those pods

01:26:09   would need its own power and cooling.

01:26:12   And so maybe you could have some interface

01:26:15   where the big honking one on the bottom

01:26:18   has a giant power supply and powers all the other ones.

01:26:22   You still need to put fans in all of them.

01:26:24   So that's gonna be more noise, more size.

01:26:27   They're all gonna have their own metal casing

01:26:29   and whatever hardware is involved

01:26:31   with the interconnection between them

01:26:32   and keeping them securely mounted

01:26:34   so your GPU doesn't pop out of the socket

01:26:36   in the middle of using it if you nudge the desk

01:26:38   or your catwalks over or whatever.

01:26:39   Like, it is so challenging to build a system like that

01:26:43   that works at all.

01:26:45   And it would end up, these pod things would end up being

01:26:49   so cumbersome and expensive and loud.

01:26:54   And it would, and then not to mention like,

01:26:57   imagine the support nightmare of like,

01:27:00   You think it's bad now when we have to know,

01:27:02   well, if you have a 13 inch MacBook Pro,

01:27:05   the two Thunderbolt ports on the right side

01:27:07   are a little bit less bandwidth

01:27:08   than the two Thunderbolt ports on the left side.

01:27:11   You think that's bad.

01:27:12   Imagine a system where, well, you can stack

01:27:16   three GPU modules, but only if you have

01:27:19   this one high-powered CPU module,

01:27:20   and only from this year forward,

01:27:22   and not if you have a disk module

01:27:23   between any of the two GPU modules.

01:27:25   It would be crazy to support,

01:27:27   and it would be crazy as a user

01:27:28   to figure out what would work with what else

01:27:30   and whether you could do things.

01:27:31   And it would just be a nightmare.

01:27:33   And there would be weird limits of like

01:27:36   how many of something you could have,

01:27:37   what order they'd have to be stacked in,

01:27:39   what the certain like main module would have to be

01:27:42   to support the other ones.

01:27:43   It would be a mess.

01:27:45   So that entire idea of stacking these external boxes

01:27:50   that you could just combine into whatever you want,

01:27:53   I don't think that's ever going to happen.

01:27:54   It just, in practice, it just doesn't work.

01:27:58   - I completely agree with you,

01:27:59   and I think that that reading of modular

01:28:03   is grossly overcomplicating

01:28:06   what Apple's probably talking about.

01:28:07   - Yeah, they just mean a separate monitor.

01:28:09   That's all they mean.

01:28:10   - Yeah, that's it, just a separate monitor.

01:28:12   - Well, and I think what they mean,

01:28:14   it turns out if you can describe the configurability

01:28:18   of a PC tower that we've had for decades,

01:28:21   like that is modular.

01:28:23   I think what they mean--

01:28:24   - That's exactly what I was gonna say.

01:28:25   I think it just means like user replaceable RAM,

01:28:28   maybe user replaceable CPU, maybe.

01:28:30   User replaceable graphics card,

01:28:32   it's basically a cheese grater Mac Pro,

01:28:34   but presumably done in a much more modern fashion,

01:28:37   but with the same amount of upgradeability.

01:28:40   - And I would say it doesn't even necessarily need

01:28:42   to be user replaceable on all these parts.

01:28:44   I think what Apple means by modular is,

01:28:47   they can configure the same general case

01:28:52   in different ways to suit different types

01:28:54   of needs at purchase.

01:28:55   So the old Mac Pro Tower could be configured with

01:28:58   one or two CPUs, three or six RAM slots,

01:29:02   any number up to five, I think, of PCI express cards,

01:29:05   two of which have GPU,

01:29:06   or three of which could have GPU bandwidth, I think.

01:29:09   Four disks, two opticals,

01:29:11   there were all these different configurations,

01:29:13   and this one product that Apple,

01:29:15   this one case with this one power supply,

01:29:18   with this one set of supporting components,

01:29:20   could be configured by Apple in a modular fashion

01:29:24   to solve a bunch of people's needs differently

01:29:27   in one product.

01:29:28   That's what the PC tower gave Apple.

01:29:30   That's what the Mac Pro had until 2013.

01:29:33   And so when they say modular,

01:29:35   I'm pretty sure that's the kind of thing they're describing

01:29:38   as opposed to the 2013, which is with this model,

01:29:42   you get one CPU and two mid-range GPUs and that's it.

01:29:45   Like it was one configuration you could make with that one.

01:29:48   So that is what I would expect by the word modular.

01:29:51   so I wouldn't get your hopes up, anybody out there,

01:29:54   about the stacked components idea,

01:29:56   or even as you were saying, even like user-replaceable stuff,

01:30:00   like, you know, I'm sure like the RAM probably will be,

01:30:04   storage maybe, processors probably not,

01:30:08   I mean, it's like CPU upgrades haven't really been

01:30:12   a practical thing for quite some time,

01:30:14   because basically like sockets that the CPUs plug into,

01:30:17   and like the motherboard chipsets and everything,

01:30:20   Those change so frequently that you can't really upgrade

01:30:24   to a processor that is newer than the one you have.

01:30:27   You can move laterally, like within the same family.

01:30:30   Like if you bought the low end one in the family,

01:30:33   and then two years later you can find the high end one

01:30:35   for sale somewhere, you could put that in,

01:30:37   but the gain usually isn't that big.

01:30:38   The difference between the low and the high end

01:30:40   within a single family, like in a single year,

01:30:42   isn't that big, it's like 5% most of the time.

01:30:44   You could get more cores with the Mac Pro,

01:30:47   But again, it's not as big of a gain

01:30:50   as just buying a new one would get you.

01:30:53   And doing a CPU upgrade on a modern computer,

01:30:56   especially a Mac Pro with these giant Xeons in it,

01:30:59   involves so much like messing with delicate

01:31:02   and very important thermal management things,

01:31:04   giant heat sinks moving the fans around,

01:31:07   dealing with these little fragile sockets

01:31:08   and the thousand pins in the bottom of them.

01:31:11   It would be such a crazy ordeal to put most people through.

01:31:15   I would not expect anybody today to consider the CPU

01:31:19   in an average person's computer to be user-replaceable.

01:31:22   So I definitely would not expect that

01:31:24   to ever happen again with Apple.

01:31:26   That's, you know, it wouldn't surprise me

01:31:27   if the CPU was soldered to the board.

01:31:28   Probably not for component management reasons,

01:31:30   but wouldn't surprise me.

01:31:32   - So I don't want to poo-poo the external stuff too much,

01:31:35   because you're just like,

01:31:36   "Oh, nothing's ever gonna be external."

01:31:37   It's probably the right choice for the Mac Pro,

01:31:39   but Thunderbolt 3 does let you have things

01:31:44   were previously inside the case, outside the case.

01:31:47   And so it is conceivable, but ill-advisable,

01:31:51   that Apple could say, hey, we've solved the GPU upgrading

01:31:54   problem by putting it in a separate box.

01:31:57   And we already talked about that Thunderbolt 3 does not

01:32:00   have enough bandwidth to fully satisfy the very, very, very

01:32:03   top-end cards in a specific application

01:32:06   where they need all the PCI Express lanes

01:32:08   that they could have internally, because the external does not

01:32:11   have as many lanes as internal.

01:32:12   Maybe you could gang cables together or something like that, but they could do that, but as you said

01:32:18   Another external power supply cooling like it's awkward

01:32:21   The role of that is to make a laptop have a decent GPU if Apple was ever going to do

01:32:27   Something like that. They would do it for a laptop because you can't put it inside the case

01:32:31   wouldn't it be cool if you could put your laptop down and then

01:32:34   Connected with Thunderbolt 3 to a GPU that is not the highest of the high-end

01:32:39   But is so much faster than the GPU that's inside your case that it's a win

01:32:44   So my hope my first hope with the modular thing, which I interpreted

01:32:49   This is the same as Casey which is basically them just saying it has a separate monitor. I'm not even talking about the internals

01:32:53   I'm just saying if there's a box that doesn't have a monitor and there's a monitor connected to it

01:32:57   That's my interpretation of modular modular. That's no different than the current Mac Pro, right?

01:33:02   But it's not the iMac

01:33:03   That's that's what I say

01:33:04   Like we're gonna make a new Mac Pro and that's their way of saying and it's not gonna be an iMac Pro like that's how I

01:33:09   I read their statement at the broadest level, right?

01:33:12   So what I hope, my first hope is that they do not have an external GPU connected with

01:33:17   Thunderbolt on the new Mac Pro.

01:33:19   Because again, the whole point of this computer is to be the absolute fastest thing that money

01:33:24   can buy.

01:33:25   And if you connect a GPU with a Thunderbolt 3 cable, you are already down behind all the

01:33:30   people who have internal stuff.

01:33:31   Forget about having a CPU connected separately from this and that and get like, just plain

01:33:35   old taking the GPU outside the box is a bad idea from packaging and it's a bad

01:33:40   idea from performance perspective. Right, that I think to me as we think through

01:33:45   like what the new Mac Pro should be and what it's likely to be the question of

01:33:50   whether the GPU is internal or external I think decides a lot of it for us and

01:33:55   and I'm with you John I think once you think it through and think through the

01:33:59   realities like no question that Thunderbolt is great and you can do

01:34:03   external GPUs over Thunderbolt now.

01:34:05   And they actually, if you look up,

01:34:07   like I know barefeets.com did a bunch of tests

01:34:10   a few months back, and it turned out that external GPUs

01:34:14   for a lot of applications that didn't involve tons

01:34:16   of transfer to and from main memory,

01:34:19   they actually did pretty well in the external boxes.

01:34:22   - Yeah, they can be just as fast.

01:34:23   If you're not constrained by bandwidth,

01:34:25   they're exactly as fast as if they were internal.

01:34:27   But again, the whole point of this computer

01:34:29   is to be the absolute fastest at everything,

01:34:31   and say you're doing some workload

01:34:33   that does take advantage of all those lanes,

01:34:35   now you're down some number of PCI express lanes,

01:34:37   now you're down bandwidth.

01:34:38   Why take that hit?

01:34:40   For what advantage?

01:34:40   It's like, oh, well, if it's external,

01:34:42   we can upgrade it easily.

01:34:43   Well, guess what?

01:34:43   If it's internal, you can upgrade it easily

01:34:45   through this amazing technology we call cards.

01:34:47   (laughing)

01:34:48   - Well, we'll get to that.

01:34:49   - Not that Apple's gonna get into the upgrade business,

01:34:51   but like you both said, Apple can upgrade it.

01:34:54   Maybe they'll never let you upgrade it,

01:34:55   but next year, they can swap out one of the GPUs

01:34:58   and put in a new one and say,

01:34:59   here's the speed bump to Mac Pro.

01:35:01   We're now with new GPU options

01:35:03   because we built them with enough cooling capacity.

01:35:05   That's what we're talking about here.

01:35:06   Not even like, oh, you'll be able to take your GPU out

01:35:09   and put a new one yourself,

01:35:10   which you probably will be able to do

01:35:11   by taking PC GPUs and flashing them and all the other stuff.

01:35:14   But in terms of Apple-supported stuff,

01:35:16   internal versus external does not give Apple

01:35:20   any more flexibility in terms of modularity.

01:35:23   - Right, and I also, kind of like product-wise,

01:35:27   I cannot see Apple shipping a portion of a computer

01:35:31   that does not contain a GPU.

01:35:33   - It would contain the internal one

01:35:35   and they would do switching.

01:35:36   - Yeah, oh god.

01:35:37   (laughs)

01:35:38   A computer these days needs a GPU to do anything.

01:35:42   You're not gonna use a computer without a GPU.

01:35:44   Sorry Linux people or embedded routers,

01:35:46   but I'm not talking about that.

01:35:48   And so they're not gonna sell you the base Mac Pro box

01:35:53   that doesn't have a GPU.

01:35:55   They're going to put one in there.

01:35:57   That's not the way Apple would do things without that.

01:35:59   So if you're gonna have a GPU that comes with the computer,

01:36:03   it might as well be internal.

01:36:04   Like that, they would make no sense to put it external.

01:36:05   So I think once you have kind of realized like,

01:36:09   okay, there's going to be an internal GPU,

01:36:12   and they've already talked about modularity,

01:36:14   and they've talked about upgrades easily in the future,

01:36:17   you know, for them, updates, I should say,

01:36:18   updates easily in the future,

01:36:20   they're basically going towards a PC tower, right?

01:36:24   So what other parts of a PC tower

01:36:27   still needed today. You know, we mentioned earlier, they needed, there's

01:36:31   lots of things like, you know, optical drive bays that you don't really need

01:36:34   anymore, right? Upgradable RAM is an easy one, that's gonna be in there, but we

01:36:39   already have that. You don't need to make a tower to have, you know, you have it in

01:36:41   the iMac. You had it in laptops until very recently, so we already have

01:36:45   upgradeable RAM, you know, you can just have a little tiny door somewhere and

01:36:48   have that be it. So you don't need a tower for that. You don't need optical

01:36:53   you, John you said earlier that you don't need

01:36:57   three and a half inch bays.

01:36:58   I think you're probably right, but I'm not 100%

01:37:01   confident in that because here's the thing.

01:37:03   When I first, when I was first trying to think about this,

01:37:05   I was thinking, you know, you don't really need

01:37:07   three and a half inch drive bays anymore

01:37:09   because you can, today you can get a four terabyte SSD.

01:37:13   Right, and it's not, it isn't even that

01:37:15   ridiculously expensive.

01:37:16   And the two terabyte ones, which is about as much space

01:37:18   as most people need on their desktops most of the time,

01:37:21   two terabyte SSDs are actually inexpensive now.

01:37:23   They're actually like only a few hundred dollars.

01:37:26   And by the time this thing comes out in 2018 or beyond,

01:37:30   that'll be even cheaper.

01:37:33   And so at first I was like,

01:37:34   "Well, you don't really need three and a half inch bays."

01:37:36   'Cause if SSDs can be that cheap,

01:37:38   they can put a couple of like the stick kind.

01:37:40   'Cause I'm not even saying like,

01:37:42   if you're building a computer to have a bunch of SSDs in it,

01:37:44   you might use 2.5 inch drive bays,

01:37:47   which is like the little one

01:37:48   that SSDs and laptop hard drives use.

01:37:50   - That's storage skeuomorphism right there.

01:37:53   2.5 inch SSDs, come on.

01:37:55   - Right, like you don't even need that anymore

01:37:57   because not only are the SSDs a lot smaller,

01:37:59   but also like the interface standards,

01:38:01   like the SATA standards.

01:38:03   - Yeah, you're the PCI Express,

01:38:04   you're not coming through SATA, that's not a spinning disk.

01:38:06   - Exactly, so like you're gonna have some kind

01:38:09   of directly connected PCI Express SSDs,

01:38:11   and whether they're on little slots,

01:38:12   like those little M2 stick things or whatever they are,

01:38:15   they're probably gonna be on slots, right,

01:38:16   at least for Apple to service and replace them when they die.

01:38:19   So, and it would be nice to have more than one of those.

01:38:22   It'd be great to have two SSD slots maybe

01:38:24   so you can configure it at purchase time probably

01:38:27   with more storage, 'cause that'd be awesome.

01:38:29   But I wouldn't expect more than that for SSDs.

01:38:32   However, you can kind of make an argument that,

01:38:36   you know, if they would just put like one or two

01:38:38   three and a half inch bays in there,

01:38:40   you know a 10 terabyte hard disk

01:38:43   is just 400 bucks right now.

01:38:45   - But it's just too slow.

01:38:48   It is really slow to be your boot drive, right?

01:38:51   But like, but pro users, so many pro users

01:38:55   need to work with very large files

01:38:57   that they almost all of them use these,

01:39:00   these, you know, incredibly expensive,

01:39:02   complicated, loud, giant external raid boxes and stuff.

01:39:06   If you would put two three and a half inch bays

01:39:08   inside this machine, that could accommodate

01:39:11   lots of that in a really nice way.

01:39:12   Now, I'm not saying necessarily

01:39:14   that this is definitely what Apple should do,

01:39:16   and I'm almost certainly not saying

01:39:17   this is what they will do.

01:39:18   I bet they, there's no, I really don't think there's any chance that they would do this.

01:39:22   But a three and a half inch bay inside something that's big enough to have a GPU on a slot

01:39:28   is nothing.

01:39:29   It's like three and a half inch bays aren't that big, right?

01:39:32   And so, you know, it wouldn't take a lot for Apple to fit this into whatever shape this

01:39:38   is going to take.

01:39:39   That being said though, again, I don't think they will.

01:39:41   I don't think it's very realistic.

01:39:42   But I would go the reverse of what you said.

01:39:44   I would say that I don't think they should do it, but I can actually envision them doing

01:39:49   it because they really are having this self-reflective moment about the Mac Pro and atoning for mistakes.

01:39:56   I think they would actually entertain the idea, which is inconceivable from the perspective

01:40:02   of the trash can that they would entertain this idea, but I think they should not do

01:40:05   it.

01:40:06   Like my vision of what – if I had to advise them both what they should make and what I

01:40:10   I want, which coincidentally are very close to the same thing, is I think all they need

01:40:16   to do to atone is all the things they already said they're going to do, which is make it

01:40:19   so that you can change the parts year over year to make them faster, which necessitates

01:40:23   a certain amount of cooling and power structure.

01:40:26   And honestly, for the past – since the Power Mac G5, the pro Apple desktop line has – you

01:40:36   Johnny I've even said in his little intro video for the power Mac t5 has been basically

01:40:40   Making a box to extract heat from components like that. It was modeled after a heat exchanger

01:40:47   Like that's why the cheese where it looks the way it does

01:40:49   he actually talked about heat exchangers like, you know up and up in a room or whatever take air one temperature in and

01:40:55   extract heat from it and you know

01:40:57   Like that's what these boxes are all about the the cheese grater is about that the the the trash can is about that

01:41:03   It's a chimney, right? So

01:41:05   Make a box or doesn't have to be a box make make a case that can support the thermal load of all the parts that you

01:41:10   Could possibly put in it. That means you have to support two really hot GPUs

01:41:15   Maybe also two really hot GPUs some combination thereof so you can upgrade them year over year

01:41:20   You have to have excess capacity and one great thing about the cheese grater is it has excess cooling capacity

01:41:25   Like it was made for chips on such an old process that were so incredibly hot

01:41:29   Like I mean they made a water-cooled one at one point, you know, there was room for that in there

01:41:34   There's so much, you know, you can cool almost anything in this box. It is huge

01:41:37   It has direct airflow from back to front. It, you know works great

01:41:41   You have plenty of room for different arrangement of fans

01:41:42   Not that I'm saying they're gonna make something that big but so make a box with adequate cooling

01:41:46   and you know

01:41:49   Upgradable and the next thing I think that we need to do is gets what you were getting at

01:41:53   It's like what things can we remove?

01:41:54   Obviously you need to have tons of ports all Thunderbolt 3 and all that other stuff, you know high-speed Ethernet

01:41:58   Put 10 gig ethernet on it put two separate Ethernet buses like do everything you can use all those PCI Express lanes on the back

01:42:04   of the thing and then for storage I

01:42:06   Think it would be the right thing to do to have more than one

01:42:10   Internal storage thingy more than one internal SSD because they are so small to be able to support not a 3.5 inch drive for bulk

01:42:18   Storage which again?

01:42:19   I think they might consider especially if they have a lot of room in the case because

01:42:21   Well for all the reasons you said but I think they should not do instead

01:42:25   they should let me have three or four internal SSDs, which they will charge an arm and a leg for.

01:42:29   But that I think gives all the advantage you're looking for, which is like, you know,

01:42:33   what if I don't want to have a giant RAID array? I just want to have adequate internal storage. And

01:42:38   SSDs, you know, you can only get them so big, but if I could have

01:42:42   four

01:42:44   2 gig internal SSDs that are super fast because they're internal, right? Like that's what you want out of it.

01:42:51   I think there's plenty of room for

01:42:54   one to two GPUs one to two CPUs and

01:42:56   One to three or four very fast PCI Express

01:43:01   SSD things and that to me looks like and whatever shape they put it a

01:43:05   Modern Mac Pro especially if you're saying those SSDs eventually be replaced with the optane

01:43:10   You know 3d cross point whatever thing Intel's coming up with it's even faster still that you say that I don't know X point

01:43:17   I don't know. You know anyway, like that's the point of this machine very very fast storage

01:43:22   And yeah external storage is great for bulk storage and everything

01:43:24   But it'll never be as fast as internal storage and I don't want to just have oh my boot drive is internal and everything else

01:43:30   They work with is outside

01:43:32   Mistakes of the past don't make it so darn small that you only have room for one tiny little SSD

01:43:37   But the things are like the size of a thumb drive practically inside there. They're so small

01:43:40   You have plenty of room to put four of those inside there. No five and a quarter bays

01:43:45   No three and a quarter bays no two point five inch bays

01:43:47   But you have room for that if they made that machine with that combination of things

01:43:52   that would be upgradable by Apple

01:43:54   and upgradable by industrious hackers

01:43:57   and having more than one internal storage thingy,

01:44:01   all of which are super duper fast

01:44:02   and that third parties could sell into,

01:44:04   I think that would cover all their needs

01:44:07   and all the sins of the past

01:44:09   while not looking backwards

01:44:10   and while foregoing the 3.5 inch day,

01:44:13   even though like you're saying like this,

01:44:15   this could keep people from having to go

01:44:16   for the big array even longer.

01:44:18   'Cause I just think any spinning thing

01:44:21   inside this case is a non-starter

01:44:24   and is not forward looking.

01:44:25   So I would not save space for it,

01:44:26   and I would use the space that I get from that

01:44:28   to put that other stuff in.

01:44:30   - That's a reasonable argument.

01:44:31   The only thing I will say though is that

01:44:34   all of these super awesome PCI Express SSD systems

01:44:38   need a good amount of PCI Express lanes to make them fast.

01:44:42   And one of the issues with the current Mac Pro

01:44:44   is that there actually aren't enough PCI Express lanes

01:44:46   to really add anything more to it than what it has now.

01:44:50   And so if you have the slots inside,

01:44:53   if you have like four M2, wherever they are, SSD slots,

01:44:58   then you have to have allocated the PCI Express lanes

01:45:04   to assume that those are gonna be in use.

01:45:07   And then maybe you don't have enough

01:45:08   to also have two high-powered GPUs

01:45:10   and the Ethernet port and stuff like that.

01:45:12   - That's what makes it a configurable system.

01:45:14   You could say, hey, if you wanna have

01:45:16   four really fast internal SSDs,

01:45:17   you gotta give up something.

01:45:18   You can't have two GPUs then.

01:45:19   Like in other words, be able to configure the machine

01:45:22   or Apple, just let Apple configure it.

01:45:24   Not you, like it's a built auto

01:45:25   where you get to pick and choose everything,

01:45:26   but Apple can make different configurations.

01:45:28   Here's the one for people who need a single modest CPU,

01:45:33   one really fast GPU and tons of fast storage.

01:45:35   And here's the people who need two of the fastest GPUs,

01:45:39   but storage is less of a concern and a moderate CPU.

01:45:41   Like you're right that the lanes have limit,

01:45:43   but again, the whole point of the machine is they will,

01:45:45   they will choose the chips and chip sets from Intel.

01:45:47   They give the maximum number of PCI Express lanes

01:45:50   that money can buy,

01:45:51   and then it's up to Apple to allocate those

01:45:54   in arrangements that serve all the different needs.

01:45:56   - That's fair.

01:45:57   - I'm just saying one of those needs

01:45:58   may be the one that says,

01:45:59   "Hey, I wanna have more than one internal storage thingy."

01:46:02   Because if you don't,

01:46:03   then it's gonna be like a SAN over 10 gig ethernet.

01:46:06   Data's gotta get into the system somehow anyway.

01:46:07   Like you're just gonna go through a bridge chip

01:46:09   and get into the whole,

01:46:10   like it all ends up in the same place.

01:46:14   It only needs to get into the computer somehow.

01:46:15   So it's not as if by not having internal storage,

01:46:18   you suddenly get more bandwidth for storage.

01:46:20   You don't, it just, you know,

01:46:21   it sips through a smaller hose outside the computer.

01:46:24   - And I'm curious to know your thoughts about

01:46:27   whether we think they would actually use

01:46:31   like standard PC slot GPU sized things,

01:46:35   or whether the GPUs would take,

01:46:37   would be like a custom smaller Apple slot.

01:46:41   Because to me, there's clear advantages to both.

01:46:44   I mean, number one, if it's a PC, like standard one,

01:46:48   like the old Mac Pro used, the GPUs in the cheese grater

01:46:52   were really just PC GPUs with Apple firmware

01:46:55   and custom Apple driver support,

01:46:57   but they weren't that different.

01:46:59   If you go that way, then it's easier

01:47:02   for Apple to keep updated.

01:47:03   And I really do think, they said,

01:47:06   a number of the Apple executives in that meeting

01:47:09   seemed to say this over and over again,

01:47:10   which is they want the new Mac Pro

01:47:12   to be something they can keep updated frequently.

01:47:15   And so if the GPUs are not something crazy custom

01:47:19   that's just for Apple, but if they're just regular slot GPUs,

01:47:24   then that could probably help them achieve that goal a lot.

01:47:28   On the other side of it though,

01:47:29   if they do the slot GPUs, then assuming

01:47:32   that they're at all user replaceable,

01:47:36   then they're not gonna be integrated

01:47:38   with the system's cooling thing.

01:47:39   So they're gonna have to have 16 different fans

01:47:42   because the GPU's gonna have its own fan,

01:47:43   by the way, GPU fans die constantly,

01:47:46   so the GPU's gonna have its own little stupid fan

01:47:47   that's gonna be loud and filled with dust

01:47:49   and die all the time,

01:47:50   and then the rest of the system's gonna have

01:47:51   all these different heat sinks all over the place

01:47:52   like the old one did.

01:47:54   If they do something custom,

01:47:57   it would be harder to keep updated,

01:47:58   it would be more likely to neglect it,

01:48:01   like the current one,

01:48:02   but also like the current one,

01:48:04   they could integrate the GPU's cooling needs

01:48:06   into some kind of larger combined cooling system,

01:48:10   And that would therefore probably be a nicer product

01:48:14   'cause it would be quieter and it would be easier

01:48:16   and more reliable to cool if they gave it enough capacity.

01:48:20   Well, unlike the current one.

01:48:21   So I can kinda see both sides of this.

01:48:24   If you make it the custom Apple thing,

01:48:27   you have, I think, more flexibility

01:48:30   to design a really cool new product,

01:48:32   which as we mentioned, we're not actually sure

01:48:34   that that's what they should do.

01:48:35   But if you do it the PC way, the more you think about

01:48:39   what's going to be in this new Mac Pro,

01:48:42   the more it seems to me that it's basically

01:48:45   just going to be like the bottom half of the cheese grater.

01:48:49   Like, and maybe, you know, they can tweak certain things

01:48:51   a little bit within that design,

01:48:53   but if it has to accommodate regular PC graphics card slots,

01:48:57   and especially, presumably,

01:48:58   it would accommodate more than one,

01:49:00   and even if it maxed out at two,

01:49:02   unlike the old one, I think you could put four

01:49:04   low-power ones in, but even if it maxed out

01:49:06   two big honking GPUs.

01:49:08   Just to design something that could accommodate that,

01:49:12   even if they didn't offer dual CPU options,

01:49:16   which I hope they do, but I wouldn't bet on that,

01:49:20   that very quickly becomes a PC tower.

01:49:22   And whether it's just like really short

01:49:25   and doesn't have any drive base or not is a question,

01:49:27   but it doesn't really matter.

01:49:29   If it has to accommodate those standard GPU sizes

01:49:31   and more than one of them,

01:49:33   it's going to basically look like a small PC tower, right?

01:49:36   The question is whether—what is the barrier to them updating the GPU? If they went with

01:49:44   a custom thing, it would be harder for them to upgrade the GPU. I'm not entirely sure

01:49:48   that's the case because updating the GPU—they can get the chip and the chipset and the reference

01:49:56   board that goes with it. The packaging of what you're talking about is like PCs. They

01:50:01   have all this cooling and then there's this other fan that's facing a totally different

01:50:04   direction like 90 degrees to the whole rest of the airflow that's cooling the cart because

01:50:08   they're sold modular.

01:50:09   - And usually it has its own slot on the back because it has the double-width slot cover

01:50:14   thing to blow the air out the back and fill with dust.

01:50:17   - It is its own little cooling universe because it's modular, right?

01:50:21   But I think Apple can actually use the work of the PC industry.

01:50:27   "Hey, we have a new chip, a new chip set,

01:50:28   a new reference design, a new card, a new,"

01:50:30   like the whole nine yards,

01:50:32   but not take their cooling solutions.

01:50:35   It would still be in some kind of slot,

01:50:37   but that Apple would have their own cooling solutions.

01:50:39   'Cause again, I don't think Apple cares

01:50:41   that you can upgrade it after the fact.

01:50:42   They're not gonna sell new cards for it.

01:50:43   If you wanna do some weird third-party thing

01:50:45   and hack a thing in, like Apple's not supporting you,

01:50:47   that's not a thing that they've done in years and years.

01:50:51   So I have to think that no matter what,

01:50:53   even if they make a rectangle,

01:50:55   that they're gonna do their own cooling solution.

01:50:57   'Cause I think they're off the train of doing

01:50:59   like a card with its own, like you said,

01:51:01   terrible, you can tell what we used to call them,

01:51:04   video coolers or they had a weird name

01:51:08   that people used to call them for the,

01:51:09   those horrible fans that would be attached to your GPU.

01:51:11   They would always be the first thing to die in your system.

01:51:13   I think those days are gone for Apple.

01:51:16   Even if they use an actual card, you know,

01:51:19   a full length or half length card,

01:51:21   like in a slot that looks like a plano,

01:51:25   I think they will still do custom cooling.

01:51:26   'Cause I think to design a good case with thermal capacity,

01:51:30   Apple's recent designs and even on the Mac Pros

01:51:34   to some degree, like they're all working towards,

01:51:37   let's design the airflow as one,

01:51:40   like one system for maximum capacity.

01:51:43   And taking this other little island of cooling

01:51:45   and chucking it in the middle, I've got my own fan,

01:51:46   I'll put my intake here.

01:51:48   Like, first of all, they pull their intake

01:51:49   from inside the case.

01:51:50   And then they do exhaust to the outside

01:51:52   through their back little slot thing, right?

01:51:53   But like that is so, so not how to efficiently design,

01:51:58   you know, a system like an Apple style system for cooling,

01:52:03   which is why the, you know,

01:52:04   the Trashcan Mac Pro wasn't like that.

01:52:06   And why in from the G5 until today,

01:52:09   it has always been so incongruous to open up these machines

01:52:11   and see the carefully planned air flows and channels,

01:52:13   and then see the cooler, the video cooler,

01:52:16   sitting on its thing,

01:52:17   doing its thing off in the side of the world.

01:52:19   So it really depends, I think, on like,

01:52:22   does Apple think that doing that, doing custom cooling,

01:52:25   or even a custom form factor for the card,

01:52:27   is that too onerous that will actually stop them

01:52:29   from updating the GPU?

01:52:30   Like, oh, we would love to upgrade the GPU,

01:52:31   but we can't just take a new thing and slap it in there.

01:52:35   Or will they say, well, you know,

01:52:36   we just need to have enough cooling capacity

01:52:39   and a way to design a cooling solution,

01:52:41   and we will take your board and your chip

01:52:43   and plug it into a standard slot

01:52:45   and then slapped onto it, alien face hugger style,

01:52:49   will be our cooling solution that integrates

01:52:52   with the whole rest of our cooling flow inside the case.

01:52:54   So if I had to bet, I would say they are going to go

01:52:58   with custom cooling even if the cards themselves

01:53:00   are standard.

01:53:01   Now on the trashcan, the cards themselves are not standard.

01:53:04   They're not in standard slots.

01:53:05   They're on the outside of a weird triangle thing,

01:53:08   which is no arrangement than any PC motherboard.

01:53:10   They're like, that is custom head to toe

01:53:12   and that didn't work out.

01:53:13   So I don't think they need to go that extreme.

01:53:15   I totally think they can have cards, but I'm thinking the best bet is to go with custom

01:53:19   cooling which means you will not be able to yank that thing out, go buy, envy a card off

01:53:25   the shelf and shove it in without doing some, you know, pretty fancy hardware hacking to

01:53:31   get their giant cooler in there.

01:53:33   Because I'm just having trouble envisioning a box that would accommodate that that isn't

01:53:36   literally the size of the cheese grater, maybe with some parts of it lopped off the top and

01:53:40   bottom because those cards are huge.

01:53:42   the coolest to come with the huge, they're noisy,

01:53:44   it's just gross.

01:53:45   - So basically we've basically redesigned the Mac Pro

01:53:49   for Apple in two hours.

01:53:50   - Yeah, that was so easy, what's taking them so long?

01:53:53   - Yes. (laughs)

01:53:55   Yeah, so and I think to close out, I think for now,

01:53:59   what I think they're going to do with this,

01:54:01   or what I think they should do with this,

01:54:03   as you work through what this machine should be,

01:54:07   I think it's a lot more like the cheese grater

01:54:10   than like the trash can.

01:54:11   And even though the cheese grater was definitely outdated

01:54:14   and should have significant editing done to it

01:54:17   and significant changes done to it,

01:54:19   I think what we've ended up with is to make a good Mac Pro,

01:54:23   you need to go more towards that style,

01:54:25   whether it's just the bottom half of it,

01:54:27   lopped off, or whether it's more designed.

01:54:30   And this is not going to be a sexy, high PR product

01:54:35   for Johnny Ive to feel really good about.

01:54:39   it's not it's because it's going to be a some form of PC tower or something you

01:54:43   know it's going to be utilitarian more than it's going to be a fashion object

01:54:48   but this if Apple has to do that this is the one Mac in the entire Mac lineup

01:54:55   that must sacrifice appearance for functionality if that choice is

01:55:00   necessary to make if they come to a point where they have to decide whether

01:55:05   to make this thing cooler and prettier or whether to make it more utilitarian

01:55:10   every other Mac you could make a case maybe they should go the other direction

01:55:13   not the Mac Pro it has to always go to functionality first because it has to

01:55:20   satisfy the widest range of pro needs possible that are not satisfied by the

01:55:26   iMac the iMac already has the high-end nicely designed computer covered the iMac

01:55:33   is that, it is great at that.

01:55:35   The Mac Pro must be utilitarian, even if it comes

01:55:39   at the expense of the coolest, tiniest,

01:55:42   smallest, thinnest thing they could make.

01:55:45   The more tower-like that it gets,

01:55:47   the more the design they choose for it resembles a tower,

01:55:51   the more it offers above the iMac,

01:55:54   and the easier and cheaper it is

01:55:55   for Apple to keep it updated.

01:55:57   - I just don't agree with the way you're characterizing that

01:55:59   because I think the G3, G4, and Power Mac G5 cases

01:56:04   were awesome looking.

01:56:06   They were fantastic.

01:56:07   They were the best looking things Apple had made.

01:56:11   I don't think they sacrificed the beauty and design

01:56:13   of those cases at all.

01:56:15   And they also delivered amazing utility, right?

01:56:18   So I get what you're saying.

01:56:19   Like, I think the way to phrase it would be more like

01:56:22   what Federighi said, where we came up what we wanted,

01:56:25   which was like two GPUs and a CPU.

01:56:27   And then they pulled in, like they basically said,

01:56:31   how small and quiet and elegant a case

01:56:34   can we get this exact amount of power?

01:56:36   Like they pulled in the edges as far as they could go.

01:56:38   Like they shrink wrapped it down.

01:56:39   That's the wrong approach, right?

01:56:41   Instead of saying, here's what we wanna build.

01:56:44   Now let's put it in a beautiful case

01:56:46   that has like 10 times that cooling capacity, right?

01:56:49   So that we have so much headroom

01:56:50   that no matter what comes down the line,

01:56:52   we have places to put all that stuff.

01:56:54   And I think there is tremendous freedom to make,

01:56:57   It should be the sexiest looking computer that I've made

01:57:00   'cause it can be fantastically weird

01:57:02   like no other computer.

01:57:03   You just have to make sure you don't, like you said,

01:57:05   make those trade-offs where you're like,

01:57:06   "Oh, I have a great idea.

01:57:08   "Let's make it shaped like a corkscrew."

01:57:10   And we could fit the pieces in the corkscrew

01:57:12   and they could go in a little, it's like,

01:57:13   no, wait a second.

01:57:15   You may think corkscrews are cool,

01:57:17   or maybe we could fit these parts exactly in a corkscrew,

01:57:19   but that corkscrew has no headroom.

01:57:22   That corkscrew is the wrong choice for this.

01:57:24   So don't, or whatever, making it super duper flat.

01:57:27   Here's a Mac Pro that's like it's like an iMac with no monitor. It's so incredibly flat and thin right just lays

01:57:32   I don't know underneath your feet and you put your feet on it keeps them warm like

01:57:35   Stuff like that is where you're where I get what you're saying like don't make that trade-off right, but I disagree that this shouldn't be sexy

01:57:42   I think it should be the sexiest computer that Apple makes and I think there

01:57:45   You have the flexibility to make it sexy because it doesn't have to have a monitor in it. It can be insanely expensive and

01:57:53   You have don't have the size limits of portability

01:57:55   So by all means make this thing awesome looking and make it look like I don't know make make it you can make a look

01:58:01   at a Death Star as long as the sphere is big enough to support a tremendous amount of cooling like go nuts it can be black and

01:58:07   Shiny and chrome and you know, whatever you want to do to it

01:58:10   I I picture in my head something that even just a rectangular solid with the right surface finishes, right?

01:58:15   Would would be really cool like a couple of well-placed white LEDs, you know

01:58:21   Not saying has to be have ground effects on it and have water bubbling through it or whatever although they did that with the g5

01:58:26   Or was it the g5 that the water cooled when I forget anyway, yeah, I am I want this to be exciting and sexy just

01:58:35   You know and again I point to the the whole

01:58:39   Yosemite El Capitan line of cases that all sorts of weird surface finishes within the same basic

01:58:47   But also very weird and cool shape

01:58:49   Hiding the fact that guess what inside it was a gigantic rectangle with with reasonably good cooling and the g5 the same thing

01:58:55   I think it looks pretty cool

01:58:56   It's about now we're bored with it because it's ancient right but it did its job and it did it with

01:59:02   style and pizzazz and

01:59:05   elegance

01:59:06   And it wasn't as cool

01:59:08   But it was also a workhorse. And so I I want it all I want sexiness and utilitarian this

01:59:14   And I think I think it's possible. I think Apple's proved it's possible

01:59:18   Yeah, I agree. I mean, you know, the other funny thing is like

01:59:21   by by going

01:59:24   From the big utilitarian silver rectangle that weighed 50 pounds and sat on the floor

01:59:30   To the little black cylinder it had to come off the floor. It had to sit on your desk

01:59:35   That's a question

01:59:36   Do you want this on the desk or the floor the new one right and honestly I really greatly prefer it on the floor

01:59:42   because it allows for neater, cleaner cable routing.

01:59:47   If there's any noise produced by it,

01:59:48   it's further from your ear and your podcasting microphone.

01:59:51   And it just, to me, it gets everything out of the way.

01:59:55   And it is, the only thing is though, to be on the floor,

01:59:58   it does have to be huge and fairly heavy to be stable there.

02:00:02   Like, there was nothing saying that you weren't allowed

02:00:04   to put the trash can on the floor.

02:00:07   It was just unwise.

02:00:08   - You'd just kick it over all the time.

02:00:09   - Right, yeah, exactly.

02:00:10   You just shouldn't put it on the floor

02:00:12   And the only thing is like I deserves to be up on the desk. That's an interesting thing like socially speaking

02:00:18   I had my g3 and g4s on my desk because I thought they deserve to be up there because they were beautiful

02:00:23   But the g5 I also had on my desk, but it was just too damn big. Yeah

02:00:28   How big is your desk? It was on the desk. It was like it was gonna fall on me and crush me to death

02:00:31   Right. So I had it on my desk for a long time and I said, you know what?

02:00:34   This is inappropriate and it went to the floor and you know

02:00:37   My g5 and mac pro have been on the floor ever since so I'm not opposed to putting something

02:00:42   The other people would put on the floor that could be put on the floor on the desk just because I think it's really cool

02:00:47   And looking at it makes me happy but at a certain point it becomes ridiculous. So I'm I'm thinking this one

02:00:52   Should be and will be small enough that you could put it on the desk

02:00:56   But I think a goal should be also it works underneath the desk

02:01:00   So that gives the people the choice of where they want to put it

02:01:02   which means like you said, it can't be so small

02:01:04   that it like, it tips over from a stiff Thunderbolt cable

02:01:08   in the back or whatever.

02:01:09   - Yeah, exactly.

02:01:10   But I'm just guessing, just by the way things are,

02:01:12   like the direction technology is going,

02:01:15   you know, if you actually do take that Choose Greater case

02:01:17   and subtract all the stuff you don't really need anymore,

02:01:20   I think it actually might be too small to go on the floor.

02:01:22   - They'll put lead weights in the bottom,

02:01:23   like high-end audio equipment.

02:01:25   - There you go.

02:01:26   So Casey, what do you want them to make?

02:01:29   - Anything.

02:01:32   Or you want them to make nothing, right?

02:01:33   So we'd stop talking about it?

02:01:34   - No.

02:01:35   - Or do we talk about it more when they make nothing?

02:01:38   - A, you talk about it more when they make nothing,

02:01:40   and B, I want them to make something.

02:01:42   I said that at the opening of the show.

02:01:43   I want them to make something.

02:01:44   I just, I want it to be here 'cause

02:01:47   I don't wanna do 50-some weeks of us

02:01:50   pontificating about what it will be.

02:01:53   - Could be more than that.

02:01:55   They only said not this year.

02:01:57   - Yeah.

02:01:58   - That leaves the whole rest of the future.

02:02:01   Right on an infinite time scale kids there is a new Mac Pro. There we go

02:02:05   No, so, you know overall if I could summarize

02:02:09   How I feel about this one more time to kind of close out my thinking on it so far

02:02:15   Which of course I'm sure we will follow up next week with all the stuff we forgot about but I'm incredibly happy to see this because

02:02:22   It really does show for the first time in a long time

02:02:28   that Apple is really taking pros' needs very seriously.

02:02:32   And they might have done that for a lot of time

02:02:36   in the middle here, but we weren't seeing

02:02:38   a lot of signs of that from the outside.

02:02:40   It was always questionable from the outside

02:02:43   whether they really cared about addressing pro needs

02:02:48   or whether pro needs were kind of like this nuisance

02:02:51   they had to deal with, and that they were kind of

02:02:53   reluctantly supporting very minimally

02:02:57   until the pros just all went away.

02:02:59   And none of us wanted that as pros or as fans of Apple

02:03:03   trying to be the best that it can be.

02:03:05   None of us wanted that.

02:03:07   And for a while it really did seem like that's what we had.

02:03:11   And whether that was true or not,

02:03:13   this shows us that they are taking a serious effort now

02:03:18   and really putting themselves out there, you know, publicly,

02:03:21   to show that that's not the case.

02:03:25   And whether that was the case two years ago

02:03:27   and they had a change of heart in the last six months,

02:03:29   I don't know, it doesn't matter, honestly, right now,

02:03:31   it doesn't matter.

02:03:31   What matters is that they are getting back

02:03:35   on the right track.

02:03:36   And maybe this new iMac will get halfway there

02:03:39   and that's only a few months away.

02:03:41   And then maybe the new Mac Pro is only a year away.

02:03:44   A year's not that long.

02:03:46   And it's gonna feel like an eternity,

02:03:48   but it isn't that long.

02:03:50   - Especially for some of us.

02:03:52   (laughing)

02:03:53   that's and so I'm I'm very I kind of I kind of just feel

02:04:00   relieved today thinking that like you know reading all the

02:04:04   stuff seeing like all the things that that the Apple

02:04:06   executive said I feel relieved that they clearly care as much

02:04:13   about this as I do right now, possibly even more so which I

02:04:17   kind of hope because it's their job to and that's really a very

02:04:21   feeling and I feel very good about that right now and actions do speak louder

02:04:25   than words you know group run that is he and his people something smelling these

02:04:28   lines of he's in a better version of what I'm about to say you know actions

02:04:32   do speak louder than words and these aren't necessarily actions and in the

02:04:36   sense that we don't have any new shipping products today but the fact

02:04:41   that they put themselves out there so publicly it talking about future

02:04:45   products which Apple almost never does they really did commit to to doing this

02:04:50   and you know they they could decide in a few months oh you know what never mind

02:04:55   we're not gonna do that but that would be really bad PR like they that's

02:04:58   unlikely right the fact they made such a deal out of this and gave so much info

02:05:05   about why they can't update or won't update the 2013 Mac Pro kind of why it's

02:05:14   been so long although that's you know okay that that wasn't they weren't doing

02:05:18   everything they could have done in the meantime but that's behind us now now

02:05:21   you know they're doing it now right that's what matters so we now know that

02:05:27   they care they're being honest with us about what has gone wrong about how long

02:05:32   it might take and that they're actually planning on apparently one and a half to

02:05:38   two pro desktop lines depending on what the iMac Pro ends up being that to me is

02:05:44   is awesome and I am just incredibly happy and relieved

02:05:49   as a user of this platform and as a fan of this company

02:05:53   and its products and everything.

02:05:56   So much of my life is in the Apple universe

02:05:59   and most of it is in the Mac universe specifically.

02:06:02   To know that Apple is that committed to it,

02:06:06   it really means a lot and it's something

02:06:09   that we've been lacking for some time

02:06:11   in at least being shown to the public.

02:06:14   And so I'm very happy.

02:06:16   Here's my hope for this new Mac Pro.

02:06:20   Because as we've discussed in many shows in the past, despite this recommitment, people

02:06:24   are understandably wary.

02:06:26   Because even when they come out with the new Mac Pro, people are going to say, "Well, that's

02:06:30   great and all, but you did this once in 2013.

02:06:33   Fool me once, right?

02:06:34   Why would I buy this machine if I have no faith that you're going to update it?"

02:06:40   But if everybody takes that attitude when the new Mac Pro comes out, Apple's going to

02:06:44   be like, "Well, maybe we misjudge this because we come up with this new Mac Pro and people

02:06:49   aren't excited about it and not a lot of people are buying it despite the fact that there's

02:06:52   got to be pent-up demand."

02:06:55   So I think it's important for when the new Mac Pro comes out for it to be successful

02:06:59   in the market.

02:07:00   And my hope for the way that it could accomplish that is the old-fashioned way.

02:07:06   Because again, you can't prove that you're going to, "Oh, we promise we'll update this

02:07:08   next year and the year after the year after you can say that all you want but people people

02:07:11   aren't going to trust you at this point right you have you have a trust issue the way you

02:07:15   can get people to buy this thing and get them to be excited about it is the way Apple used

02:07:19   to get people to buy and be excited about almost all of its computers but certainly

02:07:23   it's top end ones show me that this new thing you're going to sell for thousands of dollars

02:07:28   is the fastest thing money can buy show me that it can do things that not only no Mac

02:07:33   could do but like that for a brief moment probably really really brief it is like the

02:07:37   the fastest thing in the world at a bunch of tasks.

02:07:40   Show me that it runs Final Cut Pro faster

02:07:42   than any other computer has ever run it.

02:07:44   Show me that it runs 3D stuff faster,

02:07:46   like whatever, pick VR,

02:07:47   like I don't care what it is specifically,

02:07:49   but you have to show me to get me excited

02:07:52   about this computer that is not just finally a Mac

02:07:55   that I can use to do my job.

02:07:56   Get me excited enough that I forget about the fact

02:07:59   that you introduced a fancy new computer

02:08:01   and didn't update it for four years, right?

02:08:03   Make me just say, I just gotta have that

02:08:04   'cause it's so darn cool or fast or has some capability,

02:08:08   even if I'm never gonna do that.

02:08:09   They used to do that with their laptops,

02:08:10   for crying out loud.

02:08:11   They'd be like, "Buy this laptop.

02:08:12   "It's the world's fastest laptop."

02:08:14   Or, "It has the best screen."

02:08:15   Or, "It's gotta be the best."

02:08:17   Or, "Look at the throughput on the storage."

02:08:20   Whatever it is, that is a thing.

02:08:24   It's not appropriate for you to do on the iMac

02:08:27   or the MacBook, and even on the phone,

02:08:30   they show those little graphs to show how much faster it is

02:08:32   and stuff like that, but like, this is the Mac Pro.

02:08:35   Get us excited about it.

02:08:36   Do not release it and say, yay, aren't you excited

02:08:39   that we are now remotely competitive?

02:08:42   No, I want you to crush everything.

02:08:44   It's gonna cost thousands of dollars.

02:08:46   I know it's the next week,

02:08:47   it's not gonna be the best thing.

02:08:48   And I know the benchmarks will be contrived

02:08:50   and probably isn't really the fastest

02:08:51   and you can still build a PC for less and yada, yada, yada.

02:08:53   But you just, if you're gonna go through all this trouble

02:08:57   and make this product and you wanna convince enough of us

02:08:59   to buy it despite our better instincts

02:09:01   about the fact that it won't be supported going forward,

02:09:04   make it awesome in at least a couple of ways

02:09:06   so that we come out of the presentation drooling.

02:09:09   They say, "I don't even think I need this thing,

02:09:11   but I want it because it's awesome."

02:09:13   That is the feeling that I want.

02:09:15   I think we even had that feeling for the trashcan

02:09:17   because it's like, who knows what this thing can do?

02:09:20   Two workstation GPUs, what does that even mean?

02:09:22   What the hell is the D500?

02:09:24   That's not a part number that I write.

02:09:25   I mean, we learned it wasn't as cool

02:09:27   as you thought it was or anything, but yeah,

02:09:30   That's my hope for this product,

02:09:32   and I think that would be a good strategy

02:09:33   to get people off their butts and into the Apple stores,

02:09:36   plunking down their thousands of dollars for this stuff.

02:09:38   And after that, all you gotta do is execute.

02:09:40   Next year, update it, next year, update it,

02:09:42   next year, update it, and everything will work out.

02:09:45   - Yeah, this, I feel like, is the first step

02:09:50   in what is going to have to be a multi-year series

02:09:54   of actions by Apple to regain that trust

02:09:58   and to show all of us pro buyers and just Mac fans in general to show us that they are

02:10:04   committed to this after all.

02:10:06   It's going to take not only the release of this product, but then also an update or two

02:10:10   to show like, yeah, we really are going to keep this updated this time.

02:10:15   Thanks a lot to our sponsors this week, Casper, Betterment and Indochino.

02:10:20   And we will talk to you next week.

02:10:21   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

02:10:28   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

02:10:33   John didn't do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn't let him

02:10:39   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

02:10:44   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:10:49   And if you're into Twitter You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:10:59   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:11:03   N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

02:11:11   It's accidental (it's accidental)

02:11:14   They didn't mean to accidental (accidental)

02:11:19   Tech broadcast so long

02:11:24   So did I win the bet? Or rather, I guess I didn't win it yet. Did I lose the bet?

02:11:28   Uh, it's iffy. I think...

02:11:32   I think you put a lot of qualifiers on, like, if these exact models are on sale come January,

02:11:36   and technically these exact models won't be on sale, even though they just shifted configurations

02:11:40   and prices, that's not the exact models with the exact specs. So I think we have to go back to the

02:11:44   to the tape and see exactly how you phrase that.

02:11:46   - Yeah, 'cause I think I said, like,

02:11:47   is the 2013 Mac Pro still for sale at the end of this year?

02:11:51   And that is almost certainly gonna be yes,

02:11:53   but then I think I might have said unmodified,

02:11:56   and that is the question.

02:11:57   (bright music)

02:11:59   Do you think on January 1st, 2018,

02:12:04   the 2013 Mac Pro will still be for sale?

02:12:06   - No, absolutely not.

02:12:08   - I vote yes.

02:12:09   - I would, if I had to pick, I would vote no,

02:12:13   but it's not as big of a, it's not as sure of a thing

02:12:16   as I would hope it would be as I think about it.

02:12:19   - You wanna bet five bucks?

02:12:20   - I'm not betting you any money.

02:12:23   - I'm guessing January 1st, 2018, it's still for sale.

02:12:26   - I'll take your five dollar bet.

02:12:28   - Yeah, all right, it's a deal.

02:12:29   If I said unmodified, it's arguable

02:12:35   whether it has been modified or not,

02:12:37   because here's the deal, what they did today was,

02:12:41   They used to have four and six core SKUs,

02:12:45   and then you could custom build them up to eight and 12.

02:12:49   They eliminated, and also the D300, 500, and 700 GPUs.

02:12:54   What they've done is they've eliminated the four core

02:12:56   and the D300, so they got rid of the lowest end parts,

02:13:00   and they basically moved everything down a notch.

02:13:03   So now the low end SKU gets the six core and the D500,

02:13:07   and the high end SKU gets the eight core and the D700.

02:13:11   Now these are all parts that were available

02:13:14   from since 2013, these are all the same parts.

02:13:16   And like nothing else has changed

02:13:18   except for the options that come pre-configured

02:13:22   with the two SKUs in the store.

02:13:26   So does that count as whether the computer

02:13:30   has been still available at the end of this year

02:13:33   unmodified or not?

02:13:35   - So I think there's some ambiguity here,

02:13:37   I think the one clear resolution to this problem is when you or someone else, I'm assuming

02:13:45   you, because this is your MO, buy a Mac Pro in a week or two, what does the Mac Pro say?

02:13:53   Is it Mac Pro comma early 2017?

02:13:57   Then it's a new computer.

02:13:59   But if it still says MacPro comma prehistorica,

02:14:02   I mean, 2013, then it is the same computer.

02:14:06   - Commas, parentheses, right?

02:14:10   - Yeah, right, sorry, comma, parentheses,

02:14:12   you know what I'm saying.

02:14:13   - That is probably right.

02:14:16   Like, I think I would consider that,

02:14:17   I would consider that the authoritative source as well,

02:14:19   and I can almost certainly guarantee

02:14:22   that it's not gonna get a new model identifier.

02:14:24   I cannot see that happening.

02:14:25   - Wait, I'm sorry, so you're saying

02:14:27   it would still read 2013?

02:14:29   - Yeah, 'cause I'm guessing that whatever they have changed,

02:14:34   it does not get a new model ID,

02:14:36   and it does not get a new name in Apple support system,

02:14:39   like Mac Pro, late 2013.

02:14:41   Like I'm guessing there is, that's what you're saying, right?

02:14:43   Like those things-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:14:45   - I don't think they've ever changed

02:14:46   the support-facing English language name

02:14:51   without also changing the internal identifier.

02:14:56   So if they, you know, whatever the model is, you know, Mac Pro 6, 1 or whatever the hell

02:15:02   the trash can is, I can't imagine them changing the external name to say Mac Pro 2016 without

02:15:10   also changing the internal one.

02:15:11   But there's no way they're changing the internal one because the hardware is literally the

02:15:14   same.

02:15:15   Exactly.

02:15:16   So I think they're not going to change it, the internal or external name, because they

02:15:19   come in a pair.

02:15:21   So then you win, right?

02:15:25   Because if it's still-- - I would win if it's still for sale on January

02:15:29   1st.

02:15:30   - Oh, that part I'm pretty confident in.

02:15:31   So unless they, and we didn't talk about this in the main part of the show, but there is

02:15:35   the slim chance that they are deeply under-promising with the hope/intention of over-delivering.

02:15:42   So you never know what'll happen.

02:15:43   But if we take Apple at their word, then you will not see a new, new Mac Pro until at least

02:15:50   2018, which means if it still reads Mac Pro comma paren late 2013 or whatever it was,

02:15:57   then I owe you $5.

02:15:58   >> MATT STOWE - No comma.

02:16:00   And I think now that they've announced, preannounced the upcoming one, I think they are free now

02:16:05   to stop selling the trash can as soon as they think not enough people are buying it anymore.

02:16:10   Because presumably sales will tail off even more now.

02:16:13   I know there's always people who just need to replace it because they just need more

02:16:16   of them period, right?

02:16:18   Come January they could say all right

02:16:20   Well, we've drained all our existing inventory and sales have slowed to a trickle and we know although we're not gonna tell you yet

02:16:26   The new one is coming in X months. And so we're discontinuing the macaroni discontinue, but no one's gonna be upset

02:16:32   But they're like you already told us the replacements coming like it's you know, it's it's there

02:16:37   What I'm saying is they are now free to stop selling a trash can anytime

02:16:40   They think it is a reasonable thing to do and so we have to wait until January before any money changes hands because it is

02:16:47   not inconceivable. They could just plain stop selling it because we all know new

02:16:51   one's coming. Oh yeah, I'm definitely not gonna declare victory or loss until

02:16:54   January 1st, but it's still on my calendar. We will see. Do we want to

02:17:00   mention t-shirts? Oh yeah, we launched t-shirts. That's a thing. That's a thing.

02:17:05   Go to our site ATP.fm/shirt or you should go to the shirts item in the

02:17:11   nav bar on our site and we'll put a link in the show notes as well and probably

02:17:15   have some kind of promotional artwork and link at a chapter marker at this point in

02:17:19   the podcast as well because we are really good at self-promotion. That's how we do things.

02:17:23   So we had a couple of minor glitches. If you saw it, when we first launched it, there were

02:17:28   a couple of issues with certain sizes being sold out, which we didn't even know was a

02:17:31   thing on Teespring, but apparently it is. So we fixed that now. Thank you, Jon, for

02:17:37   fixing that very quickly before the show.

02:17:38   - Or at least we think we fixed that.

02:17:40   I'm pretty sure I fixed that.

02:17:42   If you don't see a size option listed,

02:17:46   just send us an email and we'll do something.

02:17:49   We're trying to get you the shirts

02:17:52   in the sizes that you want.

02:17:54   The website is fighting us on that.

02:17:56   - Yeah, and the shirt design, it's an interesting story.

02:17:59   So it was actually about a week ago

02:18:03   that I had the initial concept

02:18:05   and then John did a lot of work on it

02:18:07   and came up with something way better.

02:18:09   But the initial concept that led to this shirt

02:18:11   was basically Mac Pros.

02:18:15   And it was like the first Mac Pro, the trash can,

02:18:17   and then like a dotted box with a question mark in it,

02:18:20   like what comes next, where's the new Mac Pro?

02:18:22   And that kind of evolved over a week of design

02:18:25   and into what we have now,

02:18:26   which is more of a celebration

02:18:28   of the pro Mac desktops over time.

02:18:32   Right from the very first one,

02:18:33   all painstakingly illustrated by the artist on the show,

02:18:37   john syracuse

02:18:38   and are involved in stress things

02:18:40   it forgot to take the credit it was our seriously

02:18:43   well i i think more credit for for the design concept because of the in in the

02:18:46   channels like a mac pro mac pro question mark and uh... i thought the question

02:18:50   mark was a little bit too snarky like a where's the new mac pro like i didn't

02:18:53   want to be

02:18:54   didn't want the shirt to be

02:18:56   accusatory

02:18:57   uh... because people want to you know where it and feel good about it not like

02:19:01   here's his angry protest shirt that i'm wearing and

02:19:04   one of the in-between designs was like, well, what about this?

02:19:06   What about the evolution of the Mac Pro?

02:19:10   Like, doing the whole evolution from monkey to homo sapien.

02:19:15   You've seen that thing.

02:19:16   They always show in textbooks of it starts off all hunched

02:19:18   and gets upright.

02:19:19   And at the end, there's the human being

02:19:20   holding the spear or whatever.

02:19:22   You know?

02:19:22   That was the idea.

02:19:24   Trying to pull that off with computers,

02:19:25   because they're not tall and slender like humans are,

02:19:28   doesn't really work that well.

02:19:30   We tried a whole bunch of different iterations on it,

02:19:32   but we couldn't quite get it.

02:19:32   we'd already eliminated the question mark.

02:19:35   There are a couple of times I still think had some legs

02:19:37   to them, but someone who's a better designer than I am

02:19:40   could maybe make it work.

02:19:41   But then, you know, we abandoned that and said,

02:19:43   well, look, let's just make it no question mark,

02:19:45   let's just make it about Pro Max.

02:19:48   And me being the old person that I am,

02:19:51   I have the long view of Pro Max.

02:19:52   It's not cheese grater trashcan question mark.

02:19:55   There have been many, we didn't include them all,

02:19:57   but there have been many, many Pro Mac designs.

02:20:00   In the beginning, every Mac was the top of the line Mac,

02:20:03   because first there was only one,

02:20:04   and when there was two,

02:20:05   the new one was faster than the old one.

02:20:07   And when there was three,

02:20:08   the third one was faster than the first and the second.

02:20:11   And like, so early in the PC industry,

02:20:12   and especially in the history of the Mac,

02:20:14   every Mac was better than all the previous ones

02:20:17   in like every possible way.

02:20:18   Like one of them came out with color and it was like,

02:20:20   the other ones are black and white,

02:20:21   this one color, it wins, right?

02:20:23   So what we put on the shirt is the classic Mac.

02:20:26   And there are many of these,

02:20:27   obviously the first one was the fastest,

02:20:28   but then the SE was faster and then the plus was faster and then the SE and SE30 and so on and so forth.

02:20:33   Then the color Macs, the Mac 2, 2X, 2FX.

02:20:36   And then I skipped a whole bunch of weird looking towers that don't look good in profile,

02:20:40   because there's not so much room in the shirt.

02:20:42   And then I skipped to the G3 and G4 design, which I think is fantastic.

02:20:47   And then the G5 cheese grater, which lasted a really long time.

02:20:50   And then finally the trash can.

02:20:52   So we have a nice progression of Pro Macs.

02:20:54   Not pictured is every other Mac that was not a Pro Mac.

02:20:57   All the laptops aren't there because f them.

02:21:02   All of the boring towers that were like mid-range.

02:21:06   The LC is not there.

02:21:10   What other weird like the tooth is not there.

02:21:13   The EMAC is not on the list.

02:21:14   None of the iMacs are shown in this silhouette.

02:21:17   This show, this shirt and so many episodes of the show are all about pro desktop Macs.

02:21:24   was there like the least popular, most uninteresting to most people, maxed in the lineup, and yet

02:21:31   we spend, as much to Casey's regret, so much time in the show talking about it.

02:21:36   The logo of our show, as discussed, was originally the cheese grater with the snarky new badge

02:21:41   on it, and then the later logo of our show that you may be looking at right now, assuming

02:21:45   you're not driving a Tesla and seeing some crazy artwork that is unrelated, is a depiction

02:21:50   of the front of the current trash can macro.

02:21:53   So this show is all about the Mac Pro and the shirt is all about the Mac Pro.

02:21:57   So buy one.

02:21:58   They'll be on sale for the next, well, 21 days from the time we're recording this

02:22:03   and by the time you hear it, less than 20 days.

02:22:07   And thus far we have never repeated the design.

02:22:11   So don't think, well, I don't want to buy the shirt now, I'll buy it next year.

02:22:14   You probably won't.

02:22:15   If you want a shirt, buy it now.

02:22:17   Oh yeah, and shipping.

02:22:19   Last year we had a lot of complaints about it was super expensive to ship these outside

02:22:23   the US.

02:22:24   We've gone with a different vendor this time that has fulfillment from the EU so hopefully

02:22:28   the shipping will be cheaper for people who are not inside the US.

02:22:32   And we have many many many choices of colors.

02:22:36   It's not even obvious sometimes from the store pages how many choices.

02:22:38   If you want to see what kind of color choices you have, almost all the shirts have only

02:22:41   one color choice except for the shirt with white ink that has like seven color choices.

02:22:47   And a couple of them have like two choices where you can get a black or a white shirt.

02:22:50   So if you look at the shirts and they all look boring to you or you just see two blue

02:22:53   ones you're like, "Well, I don't want black or gray or blue.

02:22:55   I'm not going to get a shirt."

02:22:57   Click through to the ones that have white ink on them and they will have, how many choices

02:23:01   do we have?

02:23:02   One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, up to seven color choices of the shirts.

02:23:06   And unfortunately the color choices are not the same in the US and Europe and they're

02:23:10   not the same on men's and women's because they're just not.

02:23:12   We tried to make them as consistent as possible, but we are limited by the offerings through

02:23:17   the t-shirt vendor.

02:23:18   So take some time, click through the things, try to find the best shirt for you.

02:23:22   We apologize for inconsistencies.

02:23:24   We apologize for regional and gender inconsistencies, so we did the best we could.

02:23:30   And special thanks to Jon for doing the vast majority of the work this year.

02:23:33   Indeed.

02:23:34   Yep, that was extremely awesome, and I'm glad we have you on the show, Jon, for many

02:23:38   reasons.

02:23:39   That's the primary one right this very moment.

02:23:42   [BEEPING]