215: Pots Are Made to Be Broken


00:00:00   Some point in the semi near future we should do our I guess biannual which can either mean twice a year or every two years

00:00:06   Announcement on the show that there is more of the podcast after the song because I still occasionally I still occasionally

00:00:13   You know wake up in the middle of the night and think I wonder how many people stop listening when the song plays

00:00:20   It haunts me a little bit done. That's our pre-show that doesn't count as the announcement

00:00:25   I need to like explain it like as it does no I mean fine

00:00:29   You can put that in that's fine, but I'm like I want to explain it link like the song plays

00:00:33   And then the show continues, and I know it's confusing, but that's just what we do. Yes. We have an after show

00:00:37   It's after the theme song listen to it the end, but it needs to be explained

00:00:42   How much more does it need this does not need to be it does not need to be belabored you think it doesn't need to be

00:00:47   Trust me like here

00:00:50   if you were more

00:00:53   You know invasive instead of respecting people's privacy

00:00:57   we could know exactly when they stop listening. On Overcast, anyway. But no, you don't want

00:01:01   to collect any data about anybody. Just ask the midroll, they probably know.

00:01:04   Ooh, sick burn. Sick burn.

00:01:07   So it's been a big week. Huge week, you could say. Because John Saracusa, you have your new

00:01:15   file system on your phone, assuming you've upgraded. So how about them Apples?

00:01:19   I did upgrade. I upgraded my device and everybody's device. I was very excited to do it.

00:01:26   it's a little less exciting than having it on your Mac

00:01:28   'cause there's really no way as far as I've been able

00:01:31   to determine to tell that you have APFS on your iOS device

00:01:35   short of digging around with some dev tool or whatever.

00:01:39   One of the things that I heard people mentioning to try,

00:01:42   which makes sense to me is, in settings, general,

00:01:47   like storage usage or managed storage,

00:01:51   like somewhere you keep going down to the thing

00:01:52   that tells you how much room is being taken up

00:01:55   on your iOS device by various applications in their files.

00:01:57   You know that screen?

00:01:59   Well, that screen in the old world

00:02:02   had to crawl through each application's

00:02:06   little directory of stuff and add up the size of everything.

00:02:09   And it would take a while to load.

00:02:10   You'd see it load some of the things,

00:02:12   then you'd wait and there'd be a little spinner

00:02:13   and some more applications would appear.

00:02:15   And if you looked at it quickly, you'd think,

00:02:18   oh, the thing that's using the most storage

00:02:20   is whatever's on the top, but just wait two seconds,

00:02:21   another app will come, then another app.

00:02:23   And I timed it on my old iPhone 6, and it was like 20-something seconds.

00:02:30   Now, I haven't upgraded that old iPhone 6 to APFS yet, but in theory, because one of

00:02:35   the features that APFS has is what they call fast directory sizing, where the file system

00:02:38   keeps track of the size of the stuff that's under a directory in real time all the time

00:02:43   rather than having to crawl over it and calculate it when you ask for it.

00:02:47   In theory, that screen that shows you how big everything is should be a lot faster.

00:02:53   Because I didn't think to do this until I had upgraded almost every device in the house,

00:02:57   I don't actually have numbers on it.

00:02:58   But I can tell you that on my iPhone 7 that I did upgrade, it is two to three times as

00:03:02   fast as it is on the iPhone 6 that I didn't upgrade.

00:03:06   But anyway, when I eventually want to upgrade the iPhone 6, I'll get timing.

00:03:09   But that's the first thing I can think of to like, how will this manifest in a way that

00:03:13   you can notice?

00:03:14   The other way...

00:03:15   All right, now hold on, hold on.

00:03:16   So just to be clear, that's settings, general, this is in 10.3, storage and iCloud usage.

00:03:23   and then manage storage. And you'll see used and available and then you'll see all the stuff

00:03:29   kind of populate all in one shot. Eh, no, it's actually more than one shot, but it's pretty darn

00:03:33   quick. It does, it's not instant, which is what you would think it would be, which makes you think

00:03:36   maybe it's not actually faster because like so many things after OS upgrades, there are a lot of

00:03:41   sort of false indicators if you, you know, any, any OS upgrade, Mac upgrade, phone upgrade,

00:03:46   even just rebooting makes many things faster subjectively and objectively. So it's very

00:03:52   difficult to tell. The other item that's not in the notes here but that has come up a lot is like,

00:03:57   "Wow, I upgraded to 10.3 and suddenly I have more free space on my phone." Is that a trivial to

00:04:03   APFS? Maybe because of maybe like volume bitmap sizes and file system metadata, but that's a

00:04:12   stretch. Most likely my theory is that it cleans out, you know, just rebooting and cleaning out

00:04:18   cache files as part of the upgrade process free space, because you know how iOS caches

00:04:22   a bunch of crap in places that aren't really attributable to any particular application.

00:04:27   Like I don't know, there's nothing specific in APFS unless they're doing a lot of copy-on-write

00:04:32   cloning of duplicate files, which I don't think they are as part of the upgrade process.

00:04:36   I can't imagine getting back some huge percentage of disk space, but I don't know, I haven't

00:04:41   heard a convincing explanation yet.

00:04:42   But certainly it's possible that merely by rebooting or doing the OS upgrading, cleaning

00:04:46   out temporary directories, you could free up a lot of extra space.

00:04:49   Some people have reported that the total capacity is reported differently, and that could be

00:04:52   the case as well, but there's a million things that could cause that.

00:04:55   But anyway, I would say fast directory sizing, assuming it's even being used by that storage

00:05:01   management screen, could be a way that you can tell this is happening.

00:05:04   But even if there is actually no way for you to tell that you've upgraded the file system,

00:05:08   you can get warm fuzzies inside knowing that a better file system is there under the covers,

00:05:14   then erase those warm fuzzies with a giant eraser that says that integrity is still not

00:05:18   being checked. So good luck.

00:05:20   I mean, for what it's worth, ATPtipster in the chat has said that if you have a 64-bit

00:05:25   device and you're running iOS 10.3, you're running APFS.

00:05:29   Yeah, that's the story, is you don't have a choice. You get it whether you want it or

00:05:32   not. And one more item on APFS, the thing that's actually in here. David Reed wrote

00:05:37   in to say that someone in an Arabic-speaking country was using his application on iOS 10.3

00:05:43   beta and they couldn't open their files until renaming them to English after upgrading from

00:05:47   iOS 10.2 to 10.3.

00:05:49   This gets back to what we talked about at the end of the last show, that APFS does not

00:05:52   normalize the character encoding of file names.

00:05:56   And I thought, as I said in the last show, well, that's a bummer if you're using raw

00:06:00   access to the file systems through the BSD layer, but surely if you're using Cocoa or

00:06:05   UIKit or whatever, you know, some high-level framework, that you don't have to worry about

00:06:09   this because it will do all that for you on the way down to the file system and on the

00:06:13   way back up. But apparently that's not the case because I'm assuming David Reed is not

00:06:15   using direct BSD APIs to do FileIO. If you have an application that is not careful with

00:06:23   character encoding when writing out file names, it could be that previously it worked fine

00:06:27   because you would say give me the file called "cafe" with an "e" with an accent over it

00:06:31   and it doesn't really matter how you encoded that in Unicode because the file system, when

00:06:35   searching for the file with that file name, would take what you entered, no matter how

00:06:38   you did it, normalize it, that's what Unicode normalization is, is take a representation

00:06:43   and encode it in just one way, even though you can write that same word seven different

00:06:46   ways, pick one way to do it. There's a whole bunch of different normalizations defined

00:06:50   by Unicode, but Apple's HFS+ uses a weird variant of one of them. And then when you

00:06:55   compare to the list of files in the directory in the file system, just say, "Well, everything

00:06:59   in the directory on the file system is normalized, and the string that I'm comparing with I just

00:07:03   normalized, and so I'll compare them to each other, and when I get a match I find your

00:07:06   file. If, on the other hand, the file system like APFS doesn't do any normalization, I

00:07:11   would assume that the file names in the file system that are preexisting from like you

00:07:16   converted to 10.2 to 10.3, those are normalized according to the HFS normalization. But maybe

00:07:21   when you look for that file name and you send in your file, it is not normalized in the

00:07:24   same way and it will search the directory for a file with that name and never find an

00:07:28   exact match and say, "There's no file by that name, file not found." And so that's why renaming

00:07:33   the file to English would get it into ASCII or something that isn't encodable in multiple

00:07:38   different ways in the normal case would let you find the file.

00:07:41   So I don't know if this is an isolated case or we're going to see more of this, but this

00:07:46   apparently is the conscious choice that Apple has made as evidenced by that radar that they

00:07:51   closed that's saying, "Yep, this is the way APFS works.

00:07:54   That's not the way HFS works.

00:07:56   This is the future.

00:07:57   Everyone get used to it."

00:07:59   So one other thing to add, and I think Gruber had made mention of this on Daring Fireball,

00:08:04   but I think it's worth noting that it is absolutely bananas to me that millions upon millions

00:08:10   upon millions of iOS devices have been upgraded, and I have not heard a single horror story

00:08:16   of somebody's data getting lost, of some catastrophic thing happening.

00:08:19   I'm sure it did happen.

00:08:21   I'm sure there's someone listening to this show that might have had it happen to them.

00:08:25   But in terms of the circles I typically travel in, I have yet to hear anyone's horror stories,

00:08:31   and that is unbelievably impressive.

00:08:33   And even if there are a handful of horror stories, there's been so few that, given

00:08:39   the magnitude of the change that was made, it is preposterous to me that it has gone

00:08:44   as well as it has.

00:08:45   It shouldn't be preposterous, though, because on a past episode—like, this is not to denigrate

00:08:49   the work the file system and the up—and I would say also, like, the upgrade team,

00:08:52   whoever does the upgrade, or like, did—they did good work.

00:08:54   But this is how things work in technical circles and in programming.

00:08:59   Much like Marco's favorite hobby horse, it doesn't really matter how hard you try on

00:09:04   something that you don't get.

00:09:05   There's no points for effort.

00:09:08   Staying really late and trying really hard and being a good person and all those things

00:09:12   don't help.

00:09:14   What makes you avoid or what makes you have a program that is successful and that works

00:09:20   correctly is design. It's like, you know, what is the structure of this thing? So as we discussed

00:09:26   on the panel, it shows the way this file system and many modern file systems works for it,

00:09:30   it allows it to do this conversion is that it doesn't move any of the data. It leaves everything

00:09:34   exactly where it is. It doesn't modify the file system at all. It just writes a new set of metadata

00:09:40   pointing to all the existing data. And it can do that at its leisure at any point if that process

00:09:45   fails or, you know, something, it doesn't matter. It has not done anything destructive to the file

00:09:49   system. Only after it has done a complete accounting with complete new metadata pointing

00:09:53   to the other data that's sitting there at rest, not being moved, not being modified

00:09:56   in any way, does it do one quick small critical section that says, "And switcheroo, use this

00:10:01   instead of that." And that tiny crit, like that's design, as opposed to saying, "I'm

00:10:06   going to convert this by, you know, doing like a, you know, slide puzzles where there's

00:10:10   like a little open space and one little tile is not there, so you have to slide the tiles

00:10:15   around into the constantly in the open space, it could convert your file system piecemeal

00:10:19   like that, saying, "I'm going to use this free space to start writing a new file system.

00:10:22   I'm going to copy all the data piece at a time to a new thing."

00:10:25   For pretty much that entire process, your file system is hosed.

00:10:28   If anything fails at any point, you have a complete unbootable garbage system.

00:10:32   And no matter how hard you try, like, "Oh, I'm a really good programmer.

00:10:35   I'm going to make that process really foolproof," you can't because the design is bad.

00:10:40   The reason this works flawlessly, the only way you could ever get something like this

00:10:43   to work as successfully as it has is with a design that allows you to do that. So this

00:10:49   is another one of the advantages of modern file systems. You couldn't do this with the

00:10:53   conversion from HFS to HFS Plus. There were utilities to do it and they were terrifying,

00:10:58   right? It's good design up front and also on top of that, also a good execution of that

00:11:03   design, obviously. So there's all credit where credit is due. But I found that in my experience

00:11:08   as a programmer for lo these many years.

00:11:10   No matter how much effort

00:11:13   and what a good job you do in execution,

00:11:15   if your initial design doesn't have certain properties

00:11:18   that you need, there's really not much you can do.

00:11:21   Whereas if you have a good design

00:11:22   and you have one or two bugs,

00:11:24   it's easy to shake them out and to be, you know,

00:11:27   it's like when you design something

00:11:29   that comes out better than you thought it did

00:11:30   and it solves even more problems than you thought it would

00:11:32   and has fewer bugs than you thought

00:11:33   'cause it's just a good design

00:11:35   and it's just a matter of like mechanically

00:11:36   making that design successful.

00:11:38   It is so much less painful than when you do your best effort

00:11:42   to implement something that is ultimately a flawed design

00:11:44   or that you're asking to do something

00:11:45   that it wasn't meant to do.

00:11:46   So, kudos to the file system team

00:11:48   for coming up with a file system that has this property

00:11:52   in its design that it can do this.

00:11:53   And then also, by the way, successfully doing it.

00:11:57   - Yeah, it's really impressive.

00:11:59   And I've heard rumors a couple of years ago,

00:12:02   right around New Year's,

00:12:03   about how their software reliability

00:12:06   really had gone down the crapper,

00:12:08   and this is a positive step in the other direction.

00:12:10   (laughing)

00:12:12   - Yeah, I really am very impressed

00:12:15   with the rollout of APFS.

00:12:17   If you would have asked us,

00:12:18   back when it was announced this past summer,

00:12:21   what devices do we think will have it first?

00:12:23   I forget whether we actually did speculate on this or not,

00:12:25   but we would have almost certainly said

00:12:27   they would have been the most careful

00:12:30   and would have taken the longest to put it on the iPhone,

00:12:32   because they have the most iPhones,

00:12:34   it's the most high profile device, right?

00:12:36   The fact that they deployed on 100% of iPhones with the,

00:12:39   well, 100% of 64-bit iPhones with this newest update first,

00:12:44   as like the first deployment of this file system

00:12:46   is incredibly impressive, very bold,

00:12:48   and the fact that, as you said,

00:12:50   that there was really seemingly no problems with it

00:12:53   is incredibly cool.

00:12:55   Even though Jon says it's easy-ish,

00:12:58   I know asterisk, asterisk, but I recognize that.

00:13:01   It's just the design allows it to happen sure like that

00:13:04   You know what? I mean that was the important part of the decision not you know

00:13:07   You know

00:13:07   I mean like with this design you that's why I feel like they can be emboldened to do this because if they had a different

00:13:12   Design no matter how careful they were it could be that the correct move would have been

00:13:16   We can never upgrade people in place

00:13:18   The only way we roll this out is by people buying new phones because we have no way to safely convert

00:13:23   That would have had to be the decision if you didn't have a system like this because it would be crazy to say well

00:13:27   We're gonna start these 50-minute upgrades and if anything goes wrong at any point people's phones are bricked

00:13:31   and by the way, they lose all their data

00:13:33   'cause we've just basically scrambled it into soup.

00:13:35   If that was the choice, you would have to say,

00:13:37   there is no conversion.

00:13:38   You will get APFS when you buy a new iPhone, that's it.

00:13:41   - Yeah, and the fact that they were able to do this

00:13:44   and that they just did it kind of silently

00:13:46   in this point update, it wasn't even like a major OS update,

00:13:50   that's pretty cool.

00:13:51   And it does make a lot of sense on a phone

00:13:54   in the sense that like, as we mentioned

00:13:56   when this was first announced, like on a phone,

00:13:59   the entire software ecosystem around phones

00:14:03   is meant for you to ideally,

00:14:06   as long as you participate in the various cloud services

00:14:09   and backup services, that ideally,

00:14:11   your phone can get flushed out of toilet at any moment

00:14:15   and you can go buy a new phone and log in

00:14:17   and have everything just restored to it.

00:14:20   So in that sense, it is kind of a lower risk

00:14:22   than the way most people's Macs are set up,

00:14:24   but still deploying it to their largest device family

00:14:28   and highest profile device family were like,

00:14:29   if anything went wrong,

00:14:31   it would have been massive headline news.

00:14:34   That was a bold move, and they did it well,

00:14:36   so kudos to them.

00:14:37   - Yeah, the other, the countervailing force is, of course,

00:14:40   why would they even bother doing it on the Mac,

00:14:41   because they care so much more about the iPhone.

00:14:43   So it's like, how much you care about the product

00:14:45   and want to invest in it versus the incredible danger,

00:14:47   as you said, of like, if you make a mistake on the iPhone,

00:14:49   it's a big deal.

00:14:50   And I don't know if the 10 3 beta was longer than normal,

00:14:53   but I think having wider, more public betas

00:14:56   for longer periods of time is another factor

00:14:59   in making them feel okay in going forward with this.

00:15:02   Again, even with the good design,

00:15:03   just to make sure that you do have everything worked out.

00:15:05   Because this doesn't move any of the data,

00:15:09   the conversion in effect does kind of an equivalent

00:15:11   of the HFS+FSTK because it has to go find

00:15:14   where all the data is again,

00:15:15   kind of like when you run disk first aid

00:15:17   and it finds out some metadata is wrong

00:15:20   because there's some space on your disk

00:15:22   that it thought was occupied,

00:15:23   but it's actually free or something

00:15:24   and it updates its metadata.

00:15:26   It has to crawl over every little bit of data

00:15:27   and find out where all of it is.

00:15:28   So maybe that also is performed as part of the conversion,

00:15:31   but still, if there are mistakes somewhere

00:15:35   on your disk, essentially,

00:15:37   not that you have a disk in there,

00:15:39   this is not going to fix them.

00:15:40   It's going to preserve them

00:15:42   and they're still going to be there.

00:15:43   So if you have some sort of problem,

00:15:45   in theory, even though they're not modifying the data,

00:15:48   it could, upon rebooting or doing something else

00:15:51   because of the difference in the way APFS works,

00:15:52   could reveal a pre-existing HFS+ problem.

00:15:56   I have no idea if phones ever run FSDK

00:15:58   or how they deal with that,

00:15:59   but considering they have run HFS+ for so long,

00:16:02   those same errors that we all find

00:16:03   when we run Disk Utility on our Macs

00:16:05   surely are there on our phones as well.

00:16:07   And nothing about this conversion process

00:16:09   is going to help them along.

00:16:12   - Oh, goodness.

00:16:13   All right, anything else on APFS?

00:16:14   I'm surprised.

00:16:15   I mean, this is your crowning moment, my friend.

00:16:19   This and Swift.

00:16:20   - I want it on my Mac.

00:16:21   I'm just a Mac guy.

00:16:22   I'm just a Mac guy at heart.

00:16:24   It's cool that it's on the phone, but on the Mac,

00:16:28   you can feel the coolness more in the Mac.

00:16:30   On the Mac, in theory, if the Finder implements

00:16:32   the instant copy thing, you can take a 20 gig file

00:16:36   and duplicate it and see that it happens

00:16:38   in a fraction of a second and your disk space

00:16:39   doesn't go down.

00:16:41   You don't get the kind of experience on a phone, come on.

00:16:43   (laughing)

00:16:45   - Aye yai yai, all right.

00:16:48   Tom Jones writes in, that's not the singer, right?

00:16:52   He writes, "Then I heard Jon extolling the virtues

00:16:54   of being able to just say to the air,

00:16:57   'How many teaspoons are there in a cup?'

00:16:58   And his Amazon Echo would answer the question,

00:17:01   and Thomas provided the answer, which is 48."

00:17:03   While there's no doubt that this is a great thing

00:17:05   to be able to do, you can also do that with the iPhone,

00:17:08   something he would certainly know if he had said,

00:17:12   what was it, ahoy telephone,

00:17:14   or if he had had an ahoy telephone enabled

00:17:16   for more than a couple of weeks.

00:17:18   - I put this in every, we talked about it in the last show,

00:17:20   but apparently he didn't emphasize it enough,

00:17:22   Like what is the difference between, you know,

00:17:25   setting aside how well the services do

00:17:27   when they understand you.

00:17:28   What is the difference between hasty (beep)

00:17:29   versus having a cylinder in your house that listens to you?

00:17:32   Oh, did I do it again?

00:17:34   See, it's not on my phone, so no problem here.

00:17:36   The big difference, the big difference is that cylinders

00:17:41   do not move.

00:17:43   Like you plug them in to the wall

00:17:45   and they're in a particular place.

00:17:47   And then also on top of that, cylinders in my experience

00:17:51   have better microphones.

00:17:54   Maybe it's because they're stationary,

00:17:55   maybe it's because they're upright,

00:17:56   maybe it's because they just have more mics.

00:17:58   I think the Amazon Echo has many mics in it.

00:18:00   - Yeah.

00:18:02   - And what that means is the experience

00:18:04   of talking to the air, two things.

00:18:07   One, it's gonna be more successful

00:18:08   because the thing doesn't move and it has more mics.

00:18:10   So it's always gonna be in the same proximity

00:18:12   so you can get a feel for when and how can I say this

00:18:14   and how loud do I have to speak to be heard and everything

00:18:16   because it's not variable.

00:18:17   And two, the most important thing that I mentioned

00:18:20   when I was talking about talking to cylinders is getting over the idea,

00:18:24   like getting yourself to instinctively understand that something is listening,

00:18:28   understanding that you can talk to the air,

00:18:30   because if you have to think about it first, Hmm,

00:18:32   maybe I should ask this to the air. Oh, is the thing in the air nearby?

00:18:36   Or listening to me like getting over that. So it becomes unconscious.

00:18:39   And so you just expect it to be there. Uh, to do that, you have to,

00:18:44   you have to know, you have to, you have to not have to think about it.

00:18:47   Is the cylinder near where is it? And with my phone,

00:18:49   my phone is all over the house, right?

00:18:51   My phone could be upstairs, downstairs,

00:18:53   in a different room or whatever.

00:18:53   The cylinders don't move,

00:18:55   and that lets me eventually become comfortable

00:18:57   when I'm, say, in the kitchen,

00:18:59   which is always a fixed distance from where my cylinder is,

00:19:01   knowing that I can rely on the thing being there,

00:19:03   whereas I don't have to think about where is my phone,

00:19:06   right, or is my phone face down or face up

00:19:09   or in a case or buried underneath someone's hat

00:19:12   on an end table so it can't hear me or anything like that.

00:19:15   And so setting aside, again, what it does when it hears you

00:19:18   and the variability of how good these devices are.

00:19:21   I think Gruber just posted a thing about a CarPlay

00:19:23   versus Android Auto in which Siri did not come out

00:19:26   looking particularly good.

00:19:27   And not because it couldn't understand people

00:19:29   because that is another fixed distance from microphone thing.

00:19:31   But you would think this is a minor thing,

00:19:34   but the cylinders being stationary and having better mics

00:19:37   is what makes the experience get over the hump,

00:19:41   for me anyway, from being,

00:19:43   maybe I could occasionally talk to my telephone

00:19:45   if it happens to be nearby versus 100%

00:19:48   when I'm in my kitchen I can shout out a rule,

00:19:51   you know, a thing to set a timer

00:19:52   and it will just be set and it will hear me the first time

00:19:55   and it will always work and I don't have to think about

00:19:56   where anything else I own is.

00:19:58   - We are sponsored this week by Backblaze,

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00:20:20   that could lose your data.

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00:20:41   that's connected to it or that's in the same house

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00:20:49   there's so many risks that can happen.

00:20:51   And online backup protects from so many of those.

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00:21:34   We have some obscene amount of storage in there

00:21:36   because it's unlimited, you just pay per computer

00:21:39   and it backs up anything connected to that computer.

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00:21:44   so you can restore files right onto your phone

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00:22:37   Tell me, Jon, about the even naked-er robotic core.

00:22:41   - I hesitate to put this in here

00:22:42   because it's another Apple patent thing.

00:22:44   And it doesn't involve patent hands,

00:22:45   which is the main thing I enjoy patents for.

00:22:48   (Jon laughing)

00:22:49   Apple patents everything.

00:22:51   And every time someone comes out with an Apple patent

00:22:54   is published, the sites post it and say,

00:22:56   look at this thing that Apple patented.

00:22:58   And at least at this point,

00:22:59   most sites don't say, maybe this is coming soon.

00:23:01   They just say, look, Apple patents everything.

00:23:03   But I think this one, it just goes to show,

00:23:08   all ideas are on the table

00:23:09   when it comes to patenting things.

00:23:11   This is, you can see it from the little picture here.

00:23:14   It's like a laptop, but imagine that where the track pad is,

00:23:18   someone took a router and routed out the track pad.

00:23:22   You can't even do this on modern laptops

00:23:23   'cause they're too thin,

00:23:24   but routed out the track pad to the thickness

00:23:26   and shape of a phone, and instead of the track pad,

00:23:29   dropped an iPhone into there.

00:23:31   And the idea is this would be like giving your iPhone

00:23:35   a bigger screen and a physical keyboard,

00:23:37   and then the iPhone would merely become a glass trackpad

00:23:40   for the whole rest of the device.

00:23:41   So it's sort of turning your phone into a laptop

00:23:44   in an even more bizarre way

00:23:45   than turning your iPad into a laptop.

00:23:47   And in some respects,

00:23:50   this doesn't strike me as entirely ridiculous.

00:23:53   The reason this is related to making robotic core,

00:23:55   it's like, look, we'll give you

00:23:56   the little skinny computing core

00:23:57   and whatever you want to put around it is fine.

00:23:59   If you want to put a 13-inch screen and a physical keyboard around it, sure, go for

00:24:03   it because the iPhone is plenty fast.

00:24:06   The current top-of-the-line iPhone, I believe, is currently faster than the MacBook, right?

00:24:11   In single-threaded anyway.

00:24:12   >> Probably in certain things, yeah.

00:24:14   >> It's RAM-starved compared to the MacBook, but it's got half, I guess.

00:24:18   Does the MacBook have -- the MacBook One have four gigs?

00:24:21   >> It has eight.

00:24:22   >> All right, well, so it's still RAM-starved.

00:24:24   But anyway, this idea that eventually phones will become powerful enough to do basic computing

00:24:28   tasks and you can just carry that phone around with you and if you ever want a laptop all

00:24:31   you would do is snap your little naked robotic car phone into a laptop top shape thing and

00:24:38   then sit down and you know do a bunch of writing or bang out some email or do web browsing

00:24:43   on a larger screen and then when you're done yank your phone out of the little router channel

00:24:46   and snapshot the now lifeless corpse of a laptop.

00:24:50   That's probably a bad name for this product, corpse.

00:24:55   And then go on your way with your phone.

00:24:57   I think that's actually kind of neat.

00:24:59   The problem of course being that I believe Apple's laptops are now thinner than their

00:25:02   phones at that part, especially the MacBook One.

00:25:04   So probably not going to happen.

00:25:06   It's just a silly patent, but I like thinking about stuff like this.

00:25:09   Also I don't know if, I mean this probably could change, but if you feel, if you put

00:25:14   your iPhone next to your trackpad and you feel them both, the trackpad has a more slippery

00:25:19   finish because you're moving all over it more often, whereas the glass on a phone is a little

00:25:24   bit more of a tacky, higher friction finish.

00:25:27   - Are you complaining about the thumb friction again?

00:25:30   - Yeah, and I'm not entirely sure that you could make

00:25:33   a surface that would feel good on both of those.

00:25:36   - You make the back of the phone,

00:25:37   the capacitive touch thing.

00:25:40   - Well then why not just plug the phone

00:25:41   into the side of the laptop, like an optical drive?

00:25:44   - Yeah, one thing they don't answer in this diagram,

00:25:45   I didn't read the patent, I just knew,

00:25:47   is like how the phone would make a connection

00:25:49   to the corpse shell, like, 'cause if it goes

00:25:52   straight down in, you can't have the,

00:25:55   like does something come out

00:25:57   and go into the lightning connector?

00:25:58   I call that a little mechanical thing,

00:25:59   it doesn't really make much sense to me.

00:26:01   - Maybe it could be like an NES where you slide it in first

00:26:04   and you push it down.

00:26:05   (laughing)

00:26:06   - Yeah, but then you have gaps.

00:26:07   Johnny I would want it to be like seamless

00:26:09   where it just, you know.

00:26:10   - Well then you gotta like take it out, blow on it,

00:26:12   put it back in, the power light blinks,

00:26:13   ah blow it on it again.

00:26:14   - Don't blow on it, it's bad for your carts.

00:26:16   Did you ever see that thing with the,

00:26:18   or it's like electrostatic cutting of metal,

00:26:21   where they will take a block of metal,

00:26:22   solid cube of metal and cut out like a cylinder shape in the middle of it and

00:26:26   do it with such precision and with such a small gap that if you take the cylinder

00:26:31   and put it into the hole like you take them apart oh yeah you take the cylinder

00:26:35   and put it into the hole it slowly slides down because like the world's

00:26:40   tightest fit and when it finally slides down all the way you can't even see the

00:26:43   line around it I love that stuff all right wow we did well on follow-up look

00:26:48   at us mostly because we moved half of this from follow-up to topics but still

00:26:52   Move the waffles down because now we're gonna yeah, it's kind of cheating. That's right

00:26:55   Well, I mean, I don't know like I could have seen waffles go either way, but you wanted to go lower

00:27:00   That's fine

00:27:00   Cuz cuz technically speaking is in this never-ending chain of Marcos laptop waters if it is eternally follow-up

00:27:07   It just it just feels like he's he's like doing a combo chain in a fighting game is going on way too long

00:27:11   Anyone want to do the combo breaker noise

00:27:18   Anyway, at a certain point you have to do a combo breaker, that's what we're doing here.

00:27:21   Marco is into the topic area, talking about his delicious, delicious waffles.

00:27:26   Indeed.

00:27:27   So Marco, tell us about those waffles of yours.

00:27:29   All right, yeah, so last episode I described my waffling where I finally decided that I

00:27:35   really didn't like the 15-inch Touch Bar MacBook Pro, and I was ordering a 13-inch MacBook

00:27:42   Escape to replace it.

00:27:44   Which for those of you not familiar with my stupid names for things, is the low-end MacBook

00:27:48   Pro, the 13-inch that does not have the touch bar, that has the real hardware escape button,

00:27:53   among other things.

00:27:54   Don't apologize for your names. They're not stupid. They're better than Apple's names.

00:27:57   Yeah, that's true. The name of this Pro is it. The reason I came up with these stupid

00:28:01   names is because Apple's names aren't useful. Like when they first introduced the 12-inch

00:28:06   MacBook and they just said, "This is the MacBook." It's like, "Well, okay. There's

00:28:09   already something called MacBook that everyone knew and everything else is called MacBook

00:28:12   Pro." And people kind of used the word MacBook to describe the whole lineup and, yeah. So

00:28:16   So now they have this 13 inch MacBook Pro,

00:28:18   which is quite different from the other computer

00:28:20   named 13 inch MacBook Pro.

00:28:22   So anyway.

00:28:23   (laughing)

00:28:25   So I now have it, I got it a few days ago.

00:28:28   I want to reserve final judgment for when I've had a chance

00:28:32   to travel with it, and that's fortunately happening

00:28:34   in like a week, 'cause I haven't really tried

00:28:37   pushing it yet, like I haven't traveled with it yet,

00:28:39   and I haven't really pushed its hardware yet.

00:28:42   Although, the Photo Analysis D is doing its job

00:28:46   or who knows, the next month,

00:28:48   I have no idea when it will complete

00:28:50   because there's no progress meter,

00:28:51   no way to pause it or suspend it or tell it what to do

00:28:54   or tell it to please not analyze all the photos right now.

00:28:57   - You can always re-nice it.

00:28:59   - Oh, you know, I didn't think,

00:28:59   well, I think it's already running

00:29:01   in like a fairly low priority environment.

00:29:03   - Find out what the lowest number is.

00:29:05   (laughing)

00:29:07   - Anyway.

00:29:08   - Then it literally will never complete.

00:29:09   It's better, you might have to do the race to sleep thing,

00:29:12   let it hurry up and finish.

00:29:14   - Yeah.

00:29:15   So at some point that will calm down,

00:29:17   probably, hopefully before I leave for my trip.

00:29:19   (laughs)

00:29:20   But anyway, from just the experience of using it

00:29:22   for a few days, from setting up all my software on it,

00:29:25   and we'll get to one of the details of that

00:29:27   in a little bit, I think,

00:29:28   but just from the experience of setting it up

00:29:30   and using it that way for a while,

00:29:32   and doing a few nights of casual stuff on it,

00:29:36   like browsing the web and getting light work done,

00:29:39   like email and stuff, so far, I love it.

00:29:43   I absolutely love it.

00:29:46   And I never felt that way about the 15 inch.

00:29:48   Like the 15 inch, I love the 15 inch retinol.

00:29:51   When that came out in 2012, I immediately loved it.

00:29:55   That machine was awesome for its time.

00:29:57   Still today is pretty awesome.

00:30:00   But when the 15 touch bar, when I first got it,

00:30:04   I never loved it.

00:30:06   I was just kind of thrown by all the different compromises

00:30:09   and kind of sideways and backwards steps

00:30:11   from the previous one.

00:30:13   This is basically a MacBook Air,

00:30:17   but a modern day interpretation of it, in many ways.

00:30:20   It's the same weight, I mean,

00:30:21   so is the other 13 inch with touch bar.

00:30:23   Same weight, little bit smaller, modern case design,

00:30:26   same Intel processor family,

00:30:28   which has those awesome 16 or 15 watt-ish processors,

00:30:33   which I've said before on this show,

00:30:35   are an amazing balance of speed versus portability.

00:30:40   It's a really nice sweet spot,

00:30:42   and I'm really glad they're using these still.

00:30:45   Because those are previous,

00:30:46   previously only used in the MacBook Air

00:30:48   and the low-end Mac Mini,

00:30:49   and I think even the cheapest 22-inch or 24-inch iMac

00:30:54   that education buyers buy.

00:30:56   Anyway, so far I absolutely love it.

00:31:00   The keyboard is the same as all the new keyboards.

00:31:03   I don't love the low-key travel.

00:31:06   I don't love how closely spaced all the keys are,

00:31:09   which makes me make a few more mistakes than I usually do.

00:31:12   The ForceTux track pad is,

00:31:15   among ForceTux track pads I have used,

00:31:18   I think it's probably the best one.

00:31:20   I still don't love ForceTux track pads,

00:31:23   but this is the best one I've used.

00:31:26   Thermally, I think it's really nicely balanced.

00:31:28   It stays very cool and you hardly ever hear the fan

00:31:31   no matter how hard it's working.

00:31:32   When it's totally maxed out, you will hear the fan,

00:31:35   but even then it's pretty quiet

00:31:36   and it doesn't get very hot to the touch.

00:31:38   This is one thing I noticed with all the new MacBook Pros.

00:31:41   When you compare to the previous generation,

00:31:43   the Retina generation with the Haswell,

00:31:48   and when you compare the new Skylake ones to those,

00:31:51   one thing you notice immediately,

00:31:52   and I actually confirmed this with Intel's power gadget thing

00:31:55   or power widget, whatever they call it.

00:31:57   The CPUs, even when they're under load,

00:31:58   these new Skylake processors don't usually

00:32:01   hit their maximum thermal limits,

00:32:03   whereas the old ones would kinda hit that 45 watt

00:32:06   or whatever, they would hit that wall

00:32:08   and just kind of stay there.

00:32:09   The Skylake kind of peeks at it here and there,

00:32:11   but it doesn't really stay at that maximum wattage

00:32:13   for whatever reason.

00:32:14   And so when you're doing intensive things,

00:32:18   these new MacBook Pros are cooler to the touch

00:32:20   and quieter than the previous generation.

00:32:23   And this one is no exception to that.

00:32:24   It's very cool, very quiet.

00:32:26   That to me is very, very nice.

00:32:28   One other major advantage to it compared to the 15

00:32:32   is that because it doesn't have that discrete GPU,

00:32:36   I don't have to babysit whether it's using that GPU

00:32:40   by any programs or not

00:32:42   when I'm trying to maximize battery life.

00:32:44   'Cause that's the thing with the 15,

00:32:45   is when the 15 is using that discrete GPU,

00:32:48   your battery life gets slaughtered.

00:32:49   So if you're a power user trying to make sure

00:32:52   you get the most battery life out of it,

00:32:54   you kinda have to always be monitoring

00:32:55   with some kind of utility or something,

00:32:56   whether the discrete GPU is on or not,

00:32:59   and you kinda have to babysit it

00:33:00   and maybe make different app decisions,

00:33:03   like oh, I guess I can't run Chrome right now

00:33:05   'cause I don't have enough power or whatever,

00:33:06   you know, whatever the case may be.

00:33:08   This one, by not having a discrete GPU,

00:33:10   it kinda keeps, like the difference between

00:33:13   the high thermal envelope and the low thermal envelope

00:33:17   is a smaller range.

00:33:19   So you can kinda worry less about battery life

00:33:22   with this so far.

00:33:23   Now, again, I might modify that decision

00:33:25   once I have a chance to travel with it.

00:33:26   But so far, this is awesome.

00:33:30   Now, also about the touch bar and touch ID.

00:33:34   So I had the touch bar and touch ID for a little while,

00:33:36   for five months or whatever it's been.

00:33:39   I now don't have them anymore.

00:33:40   I don't miss the touch bar at all.

00:33:44   The very first time I wanted to adjust brightness

00:33:46   and I had to hit a button a few times

00:33:48   instead of sliding a thing,

00:33:49   I thought, oh, I kinda missed the slider thing.

00:33:52   Then I immediately stopped, I immediately forgot about it.

00:33:55   I don't miss the touch bar at all.

00:33:57   Touch ID I thought I would miss a lot.

00:34:00   In practice, I do miss Touch ID,

00:34:03   but I don't miss it as much as I thought I would,

00:34:06   because in practice, Touch ID on the 15 inch

00:34:10   and the 13 touch bar is not always there when you want it.

00:34:13   And this is probably gonna improve over time, I hope.

00:34:16   But there's a lot of system dialogues and things

00:34:18   where they ask, where you need to give it your password,

00:34:21   that Touch ID is offered for maybe a third of them

00:34:25   that I've seen, and not all of them.

00:34:28   And so you actually aren't using it all the time.

00:34:32   So I found that it is nice when it's offered to you,

00:34:36   but that because it's offered so inconsistently,

00:34:40   and sometimes there's a few bugs regarding touch ID,

00:34:42   especially at the login screen

00:34:43   when you're waking it up from sleep,

00:34:46   I find overall that I actually don't miss it

00:34:49   as much as I expected I would, because in practice,

00:34:52   while it sounds like it's gonna be amazing,

00:34:54   once you have it in practice, you realize,

00:34:56   yeah, it's not quite there yet.

00:34:59   So this is another thing where along with the Touch Bar,

00:35:02   I think this would probably be good in a few years,

00:35:06   or at least better in a few years,

00:35:08   but for this current laptop generation,

00:35:11   if you choose not to get the Touch Bar,

00:35:14   I don't think you're missing that much,

00:35:15   because Touch ID is still not all the way there yet,

00:35:18   and the Touch Bar itself, I think,

00:35:21   is still a big question mark about whether it's really

00:35:26   a net win or not.

00:35:28   And for me, for my usage personally, and my preferences,

00:35:32   your mileage may vary, but for my usage and preferences,

00:35:35   I'm very happy without it.

00:35:37   I like having my hardware escape key back,

00:35:39   I like having all the buttons up top that are just buttons

00:35:42   and they just work all the time.

00:35:43   I love not accidentally brushing it

00:35:46   when I'm moving my hands around

00:35:48   and accidentally turning the brightness way up

00:35:50   or turning the speaker way down or something.

00:35:52   It is nice to, and it's also just nice to have a kind of,

00:35:56   I know this is weird, but it's kind of like a simpler look.

00:35:58   Like the touch bar is actually kind of distracting

00:36:01   and it looks kind of gimmicky.

00:36:04   And so to have a nice, simpler, like more pure look,

00:36:07   if that makes sense, is a little bit more,

00:36:10   I don't know, peaceful.

00:36:11   It's hard to really quantify these feelings,

00:36:13   but overall I'm actually quite happy

00:36:17   not having the touch bar.

00:36:19   and this machine in general, I'm extremely happy with.

00:36:24   The only things I can say that are downsides to it

00:36:27   are what I mentioned last week,

00:36:29   which is the price is really not a great value

00:36:33   for what you're getting.

00:36:34   Although, I guess you know,

00:36:35   how much is your happiness worth?

00:36:36   But you know, like if you look at like specs,

00:36:38   by the specs and the power,

00:36:41   and when you compare it to the previous generation

00:36:43   of MacBook Air, which is still for sale, because Apple,

00:36:47   it's not a great value.

00:36:48   it is a lot more expensive than it was before.

00:36:51   And the configuration I got,

00:36:52   which is basically everything maxed out,

00:36:54   except for the, I got 512 instead of a terabyte,

00:36:57   is something like $2,200.

00:36:59   And for something that is not a 15 inch,

00:37:01   that's a pretty high price.

00:37:03   That being said, I'm happier with it than my 15 inch,

00:37:06   so what does that say?

00:37:08   The other thing is, I remember when these first came out,

00:37:11   we talked briefly in the show,

00:37:12   there was a guy, I forget his name,

00:37:15   he's a YouTuber that everyone else knows,

00:37:16   except us, 'cause we're not cool,

00:37:18   were too old to watch YouTube, I guess,

00:37:20   but there was a YouTuber who did a bunch of tests

00:37:22   where plugging in certain things to the USB-C ports

00:37:26   would make the WiFi cut out on the new MacBook Pros.

00:37:29   And I think that was this model that he was testing,

00:37:32   'cause I think that was the only one

00:37:33   that was available at that time.

00:37:35   I think I have a WiFi problem in that sometimes,

00:37:39   like as I was installing lots of stuff

00:37:41   and downloading lots of stuff,

00:37:43   sometimes all the internet connections

00:37:46   would just stop working.

00:37:48   And until I turned off the wifi and turned it back on again,

00:37:53   and that happened like three times over a few days.

00:37:57   So I think I have a problem,

00:37:58   and I hope it doesn't apply to all of them,

00:38:00   and I'm not sure that's enough of a problem

00:38:02   to actually get this repaired or replaced,

00:38:05   'cause I don't wanna mess with that.

00:38:07   Everything else about it is perfect.

00:38:09   I love everything else about it.

00:38:11   Actually, I don't love the keyboard,

00:38:13   relative to what we have today,

00:38:16   relative to our choices today, this is great.

00:38:19   But I'm a little concerned about that WiFi thing,

00:38:22   but otherwise, if that doesn't end up being a problem

00:38:26   in practice most of the time, I would just tolerate it,

00:38:29   because otherwise, this computer is awesome.

00:38:32   The 15 inch is great if you're doing,

00:38:36   Casey, what you do, which is you have a work laptop

00:38:40   that you take to and from work,

00:38:42   or that is like your primary computer or your only computer.

00:38:45   If that's your situation, I think it does make sense

00:38:48   for a lot of people to use the 15 inch

00:38:50   because it is the most computer that you can get

00:38:53   for a little over 2,000 bucks.

00:38:55   It is a great power system

00:38:59   and it's really nice in a lot of ways

00:39:01   and I used one for years.

00:39:03   There's a reason why I have waffled over time

00:39:07   between the 13 inch and 15 inch size classes

00:39:10   because they're both great.

00:39:12   But for me right now, as a secondary computer

00:39:15   that I use when traveling,

00:39:17   right now I'm really happy with this 13 inch.

00:39:19   And you could point this clip and laugh in four months

00:39:23   or six months when I change my mind and say,

00:39:25   I gotta go back to the 15 inch,

00:39:26   this is not enough power or screen space, whatever.

00:39:28   - Oh, that's being generous.

00:39:29   It's gonna be four weeks.

00:39:31   - Well, it took me like five months on this one.

00:39:33   But anyway, so I might change my mind later.

00:39:35   I probably will, that's just what I do, I guess.

00:39:37   Other tech podcasters, they'll try Android phones

00:39:40   for a month, I do this I guess, this is my thing.

00:39:43   But right now I'm extremely happy with this 13 inch

00:39:46   MacBook Pro with no good name.

00:39:48   And yeah, that's my review so far.

00:39:51   Ask me again after I travel with it

00:39:52   and try to actually do work on it.

00:39:54   But so far I'm very happy with it.

00:39:56   - So that WiFi thing has me worried.

00:39:59   - Me too.

00:39:59   - I don't like that.

00:40:01   Especially if I can't attribute a reason,

00:40:02   do you have a 10.12.4 on it?

00:40:04   - Yeah, a 10.12.4 from minute one,

00:40:06   it didn't come with it but I upgraded,

00:40:07   that was the first thing I did when I got it.

00:40:09   And when the wifi dropped, it was not plugged into anything.

00:40:13   So that is concerning.

00:40:16   The fact that this computer has now been out for six months

00:40:18   and that is still happening suggests to me

00:40:21   that this is an inherent flaw with the design of this model

00:40:25   that they're not going to fix

00:40:26   until the next model comes out.

00:40:28   - You think it's a hardware thing then?

00:40:30   - Probably, yeah, but we will see.

00:40:33   - I don't like this kind of problems.

00:40:34   I don't like them at all.

00:40:35   - Well, that's why you don't buy any computers ever.

00:40:36   - That's very true.

00:40:37   - My computer has no wifi problems

00:40:39   because it doesn't have Wi-Fi.

00:40:40   - Nailed it.

00:40:41   - As it so happens, the 2008 Mac Pro that you have,

00:40:46   that I used to have, is probably the computer I have had

00:40:50   that had the fewest problems ever

00:40:52   of any computer I've ever had.

00:40:54   So you happen to luck out with that one,

00:40:55   but I think anything else you buy

00:40:56   you're gonna be disappointed.

00:40:57   - Same.

00:40:58   I mean, so far, the fingers crossed,

00:41:00   5K iMac is doing its thing without complaint.

00:41:03   - Oh, my image retention's getting really bad really fast.

00:41:06   It's getting bad.

00:41:07   Every time I do anything gray,

00:41:08   if I open up Logic or if I view Daring Fireball,

00:41:11   I just see the immense shadows of everything

00:41:14   that I was viewing before.

00:41:15   - It's like me playing Zelda, seeing those heart shadows.

00:41:19   - Yeah, it's bad.

00:41:20   - You know what I did, Marco, to help fix that?

00:41:22   I'm really not trying to be snarky, is,

00:41:24   you know that, what is it, aerial screensaver

00:41:26   that we've all, I think, mentioned at some point?

00:41:29   - The ones, the Apple TV one?

00:41:30   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:41:31   Aerial is the name of the screensaver.

00:41:34   What I've done is I've put that on my 5K,

00:41:37   which I've occasionally seen some image retention

00:41:39   that has made me very unhappy.

00:41:41   I've set my Mac to run that screensaver

00:41:44   for like an hour or two after I'm done with the computer

00:41:48   so that you have something that is constantly moving

00:41:50   and kind of getting me back to a known good state.

00:41:53   For all I know, this is a darn placebo,

00:41:54   but as far as I can tell,

00:41:56   it has made my image retention way, way, way better.

00:41:58   - Why don't you try getting a screen with some technology

00:42:00   that doesn't suffer from image retention?

00:42:03   - John. (John laughs)

00:42:04   - What you said to me last time

00:42:06   I complained about my plasma.

00:42:07   (laughing)

00:42:08   As you both complained about your LCDs with ImageTrend.

00:42:11   Good thing OLED doesn't have these problems.

00:42:12   Oh wait, it does.

00:42:14   - No, I mean, in cases like that,

00:42:15   that wouldn't actually help my problem

00:42:17   because my problem is not like,

00:42:19   I walked away for 10 minutes.

00:42:20   It's like as I'm using it,

00:42:22   like I happen to have this one window open for an hour

00:42:24   as I was working in it.

00:42:26   And then that moves, it's like, it's getting,

00:42:28   and you know, and ImageTrends is the kind of thing

00:42:31   where like, you know, sometimes you have it

00:42:32   like right at the beginning,

00:42:33   but usually when the thing's brand new, it doesn't have it.

00:42:37   And then if it's gonna be a problem,

00:42:39   you won't notice it for a while,

00:42:40   and then all of a sudden it'll start being noticeable,

00:42:43   and then it gets worse usually at an accelerating rate

00:42:47   after that point.

00:42:49   - Someone who knows more about the chemistry

00:42:51   and electronics of LCDs could probably tell us

00:42:53   why this is a factor in these modern LG panels

00:42:57   or whatever it is we're using,

00:42:58   and why, for example, I'm staring at the Apple

00:43:00   23-inch cinema display in aluminum case,

00:43:03   with white sides that has no image retention ever

00:43:06   and is like the oldest thing ever.

00:43:09   Like there must, again, it's not just like,

00:43:11   oh, LCD versus plasma versus whatever,

00:43:12   it's the particular screens.

00:43:13   And so maybe there's been something about modern screens

00:43:16   and the way they're constructed and formulated,

00:43:19   or maybe just by a particular manufacturers

00:43:21   that makes them so much more susceptible to image retention

00:43:23   under casual circumstances.

00:43:25   Like, again, we've all seen like the check-in kiosks

00:43:28   at the airport that are just super burned in.

00:43:30   So like at a certain point,

00:43:31   if you show the same image on the screen,

00:43:33   24 hours a day, seven days a week,

00:43:34   except for brief periods of activity.

00:43:36   Of course, that's gonna happen,

00:43:37   but you're just using your 5K iMac.

00:43:39   It's pretty light usage compared to an airport terminal.

00:43:42   You just say, I have Daring Fireball open for a second,

00:43:44   then I click to another window to go in front of it,

00:43:46   and I see the little star embedded in the window,

00:43:48   or vice versa, seeing--

00:43:49   - No, no, it's the opposite.

00:43:50   It's like when you have a bunch of black and white windows

00:43:52   up, and then you load something gray,

00:43:54   like Daring Fireball or Logic,

00:43:55   then you see shadows of every,

00:43:57   of all those black and white borders

00:43:58   that were previously there.

00:44:00   - Yeah, so--

00:44:01   It's sticking around longer now than the day before too.

00:44:04   I had an entire podcast today.

00:44:06   I had it under the radar today,

00:44:09   which just immediately doesn't take me that long.

00:44:10   It takes me like 10 minutes to edit,

00:44:11   but that entire 10 minute edit,

00:44:12   I had a shadow of the window behind it.

00:44:15   - Yeah, not going away.

00:44:16   That's the other thing, by the way.

00:44:17   Like my plasma, obviously it's worse on my plasma

00:44:19   because when it does get there,

00:44:20   you're gonna be waiting like a year for it to be entirely

00:44:22   gone, whereas image retention,

00:44:24   like my iPad 3 had pretty bad image retention too.

00:44:27   But as bad as it was, and you could see it,

00:44:30   it was like three to five minutes

00:44:31   and it would be 100% gone.

00:44:33   And so that's preferable, makes you feel like,

00:44:35   oh, it's an annoyance, but it's not like

00:44:38   I have to wait a year for this to go away.

00:44:39   But anyway, didn't Apple do a recall replace

00:44:43   for image retention?

00:44:44   I think it was on the original Retina 15 inch

00:44:46   MacBook Pro, right?

00:44:47   - I think it was certain ones.

00:44:50   Mine wasn't even part of that.

00:44:51   Like I had that original one.

00:44:53   It did have image retention and I eventually got it fixed,

00:44:55   but it took a long time.

00:44:56   Yeah, one thing before I forget,

00:44:59   on the MacBook escape screen.

00:45:02   It is a beautiful screen.

00:45:04   I absolutely love it.

00:45:05   And this is actually, so, you know,

00:45:07   as I'm setting everything up new,

00:45:09   one of the things I did, you know,

00:45:10   I usually pick a background that's some photo

00:45:13   I took recently that I like.

00:45:14   And the photo I picked for this one

00:45:16   includes my son wearing a really bright,

00:45:19   saturated orange jacket.

00:45:22   And I think this is the P3 color gamut helping me out here,

00:45:26   because this very saturated orange color

00:45:29   just looks incredible on this screen.

00:45:31   This is the first screen I've ever seen

00:45:34   that makes my first gen 5K iMac screen

00:45:38   look less good by comparison.

00:45:41   Every other previous Retina laptop looked worse to me.

00:45:44   This one looks awesome.

00:45:45   Now that being said, the same thing probably applies

00:45:48   to the 15 inch, I'd use a different picture

00:45:50   for the wallpaper on that one.

00:45:51   So the same thing probably applies to the new 15.

00:45:53   But just to point out, even on this one,

00:45:56   which is basically the new MacBook Air.

00:45:59   The previous MacBook Air used a crap screen

00:46:01   to save cost and space and whatever else.

00:46:04   The MacBook Escape today is amazing.

00:46:07   It is an awesome screen.

00:46:09   And to have that on what is the low end model,

00:46:12   even though it's still not a good value,

00:46:15   but it is in the lineup, it is the low end model,

00:46:18   to have that is really, really nice.

00:46:20   And I'm extremely happy.

00:46:21   I can't overstate how happy I am right now

00:46:25   with this purchase, even though the Wi-Fi

00:46:27   doesn't always work, apparently.

00:46:28   - So as someone who is considering getting a MacBook One,

00:46:35   which as far as I know is a MacBook Adorable, right?

00:46:37   Somebody put in the show notes,

00:46:38   MacBook One versus MacBook Adorable.

00:46:40   - We'll address that after you get to your point.

00:46:41   - Well, you're freaking me out here,

00:46:42   'cause I always use them interchangeably,

00:46:44   and I got nervous that I had misunderstood.

00:46:46   So anyway, so as someone who's considering

00:46:48   a MacBook Adorable/Macbook One,

00:46:50   remind me again what it was that brought you

00:46:54   to this instead of a MacBook One.

00:46:57   Obviously power, but what else was it?

00:47:01   - It was when I put them both side by side

00:47:03   in the Apple Store on the table,

00:47:04   and I played with them for a while,

00:47:05   'cause I went in on a weekday where nobody was there.

00:47:07   So when I had some time with both side by side,

00:47:11   and also thinking back to when I did briefly buy

00:47:14   a 12-inch MacBook One, basically the main difference to me

00:47:19   is just the way they feel, the ergonomics of using them,

00:47:22   that the 12 inch size is really small,

00:47:27   and in certain ways that actually makes it less comfortable,

00:47:30   for me at least.

00:47:31   And again, your mileage may vary,

00:47:32   but for me, the general operation of it,

00:47:35   like where to place your hands, opening and closing it,

00:47:37   all these things, it was pleasant

00:47:40   at how small and light it was,

00:47:41   but when it came time to actually put it down,

00:47:43   open it up, use it, type on it, put it in your lap,

00:47:46   I found the 13 inch size worked better for me

00:47:48   and was more comfortable.

00:47:50   I also found a dramatic difference in the trackpad click.

00:47:54   It was, that's a huge, if you put it side by side,

00:47:57   do it in a store, put them side by side,

00:47:59   the trackpad difference is extremely noticeable.

00:48:02   And there is still a keyboard difference as well.

00:48:04   I don't know how long the keyboard difference

00:48:05   will be there, I'm assuming that the next MacBook 12 inch

00:48:08   update will bring the keyboard parody there,

00:48:12   but right now there's still a keyboard difference

00:48:15   and it's not a massive difference,

00:48:18   but the 13-inch is just better.

00:48:20   And so in all those ways, the physical ergonomics,

00:48:25   the 13-inch is 50% heavier.

00:48:29   It is noticeable how much heavier it is than the 12-inch.

00:48:33   But it's still a really small,

00:48:34   it's a 13-inch MacBook Air in weight.

00:48:36   It's still a really thin and light computer.

00:48:39   It is still really compact.

00:48:41   It does perform better,

00:48:44   but I don't think the performance difference is that big.

00:48:47   it does have two USB-C ports instead of one.

00:48:51   That's still not a lot, but two is better than one.

00:48:54   And there are gonna be situations in which

00:48:57   I'm gonna be really happy I have that second port

00:48:59   and that having the one would have been a pain.

00:49:02   I do think the screen is higher quality.

00:49:04   I have not looked up to see if anything backs this up

00:49:06   or if this is just placebo,

00:49:08   but I think the screen is higher quality than 13.

00:49:10   And in various size classes of things we use,

00:49:16   You can look at the iPad line, for instance,

00:49:19   and the reaction for most people, myself included,

00:49:21   is that when we picked up that 12 inch,

00:49:25   12.9 inch iPad Pro, when you're using it as a laptop,

00:49:28   that's cool, but when you have to like pick it up

00:49:30   and hold it in your hand as an iPad,

00:49:32   that's a little bit too big for most people.

00:49:34   Similarly, when you pick up the iPad Mini,

00:49:37   that's fine for a lot of people,

00:49:38   but for a lot of people, that's like,

00:49:40   "You know, this is a little small.

00:49:41   "I'd like something a little bit bigger."

00:49:42   And it turns out that 9.7 is a really good size

00:49:46   for a device that you use and hold and carry like an iPad.

00:49:51   Similarly with phones, you see like,

00:49:53   a lot of people like the really big ones,

00:49:55   but most people stick with the medium-sized ones,

00:49:57   and the small ones are still very well-liked,

00:49:59   and so it seems like around the size of the 4.7-inch iPhone

00:50:03   is probably like the ideal size right now

00:50:06   for phones for most people.

00:50:08   And I think if you can look at laptops,

00:50:10   and you see kind of a similar thing.

00:50:12   It's like all these things, all these perceptions

00:50:14   of what's an ideal size are generally related

00:50:16   to like how big are average people

00:50:19   and how do you hold things, what do you carry,

00:50:22   how do you carry it, how are your hands shaped

00:50:25   and where do they go, right?

00:50:27   And I think in the world of laptops,

00:50:30   we had bigger ones in the past.

00:50:31   We had like the 17 inch and that was

00:50:33   a massive aircraft carrier.

00:50:35   It was awesome when you were using that giant screen

00:50:39   but it was really unwieldy to carry around and use.

00:50:41   So that was kind of deemed by the market

00:50:43   and eventually by Apple.

00:50:45   You know what, that's too big.

00:50:47   And the 15 is now the high end

00:50:50   and I think in the world of laptops,

00:50:53   I would say 13 inch is really the sweet spot

00:50:57   of like this is the best size for most people.

00:51:00   And I think sales back that up

00:51:01   because in the last however many years

00:51:04   that the MacBook Air has been a thing,

00:51:06   I would guess the 13 inch MacBook Air

00:51:08   Apple's number one selling computer for a very long time.

00:51:11   It might still be, because education buys a ton of them.

00:51:14   The 13 inch MacBook Air is an amazing balance

00:51:17   of size, portability, cost even,

00:51:21   but you know, talking about physical stuff only

00:51:23   for a minute, it's a really great balance.

00:51:27   And this is just the sequel to that, right?

00:51:30   The MacBook One slash adorable slash 12 inch,

00:51:34   it is smaller and lighter,

00:51:36   And if your number one goal is to be able to carry this

00:51:41   with as little weight as possible,

00:51:43   or underscore it to people to actually wear one

00:51:46   in your jacket, which is amazing.

00:51:49   If your number one goal is to get it as small as possible,

00:51:52   then yeah, go for that one.

00:51:54   But if instead you're looking for more of like

00:51:57   an all-arounder, the best laptop in general

00:52:00   for most people most of the time,

00:52:02   or the one that's most comfortable to use most of the time,

00:52:05   I would say the 13 inches is the better balance of that.

00:52:07   I would also say that the screen size

00:52:10   on the 13 inch is great,

00:52:13   and that I don't want a smaller screen than this.

00:52:17   - Fair enough.

00:52:19   All right, well I appreciate it.

00:52:19   I still feel like I want a MacBook Adorable,

00:52:23   but everything you just said makes perfect sense.

00:52:25   It's just I think because I want to basically have

00:52:28   a iPad that you can actually do things on,

00:52:31   hi Mike, that's why I want the Adorable.

00:52:34   Oh, you're gonna hear about that.

00:52:35   Oh, I'm gonna pay for that later.

00:52:37   (upbeat music)

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00:54:07   So what is the deal with whoever put in the show notes MacBook One versus MacBook Adorable?

00:54:12   I want to touch on it before I just wanted to bring it back around. These are two names

00:54:16   for the 12-inch MacBook that Apple just calls MacBook that has one USB-C port/power plug

00:54:24   on the side, another name that it is known by, and again, the reason people make up these

00:54:30   names is not just to be cute, but also because we need something to distinguish it because

00:54:35   MacBook is not unique enough, is MacBook Adorable. That's a name invented by another podcast

00:54:42   where they talk about sneakers and plane crashes as far as semi-properman. Not a tech podcast.

00:54:48   Actually, by the way, I'm pretty sure that was on Cortex, not Hello Internet. So that

00:54:53   That was not the Sneakers in Plane Crash podcast.

00:54:55   That was the Productivity Email Software podcast.

00:54:57   - Eh, it's a stretch.

00:54:59   (laughing)

00:55:01   Email, I'll give you email.

00:55:04   - Yeah, I'm pretty sure CGP Grey invented that name

00:55:06   for it on Cortex.

00:55:08   - Right, and MacBook One, Marco invented, right?

00:55:10   On this show?

00:55:11   - Yeah.

00:55:12   - All right, so--

00:55:13   - And our chat room and I both collaborated

00:55:14   on MacBook Escape.

00:55:16   - Yes.

00:55:17   MacBook One versus MacBook Adorable.

00:55:20   We are using them both interchangeably on the show,

00:55:24   and I was thinking about it, about which name,

00:55:27   if we should settle on a name,

00:55:29   or what's gonna happen there.

00:55:30   And unfortunately, I think, I think/hope

00:55:34   that MacBook Adorable is gonna have more longevity,

00:55:37   not necessarily because it's a better name,

00:55:40   but because as soon as they add a second USB-C port

00:55:44   to the 12-inch MacBook, MacBook One doesn't have,

00:55:49   doesn't make sense anymore.

00:55:50   In fact, it becomes undistinguishing

00:55:52   because we're gonna have to call it MacBook 2 or something,

00:55:55   and then that's kind of confusing.

00:55:57   But whereas Adorable, if it's still very small,

00:56:00   it is still adorable.

00:56:00   MacBook Adorable lasts until they come up

00:56:02   with a new MacBook that is entirely different form factor

00:56:05   that is as thin as a sheet of paper,

00:56:07   and then it probably comes up with a new name.

00:56:08   So it seems to me that in the long run,

00:56:11   MacBook Adorable will stand triumphant over the, again,

00:56:14   the corpse of that laptop line when that day comes.

00:56:18   - Well, I mean, and also, like, I've even stopped saying

00:56:21   MacBook One most of the time, because,

00:56:24   Nat, like, the reason I started saying that name

00:56:28   in the first place was similar to my reason now

00:56:29   for saying MacBook Escape for this 13-inch,

00:56:32   because, like, Apple's name for it was vague

00:56:35   and ambiguous when you would use it in conversation.

00:56:38   And that computer has now been out for over two years.

00:56:42   So I feel like now we can just say MacBook,

00:56:46   and most of the time that will now suffice.

00:56:49   People will usually know what we mean now.

00:56:51   And if not, I've been saying 12 inch MacBook,

00:56:54   which really clarifies it.

00:56:55   And so I think the need for alternative names

00:56:59   for that product has now mostly or entirely passed

00:57:02   because it's just been long enough.

00:57:05   The MacBook Escape I think still needs

00:57:07   clever names like that, but that will probably

00:57:09   expire in like a year as well.

00:57:12   - Yeah, once they get rid of those darn pesky physical keys

00:57:14   touch bar on everything, right? Oh, God, I'll hold onto this forever.

00:57:18   You know, the funny thing is I trained myself into using caps lock for escape everywhere,

00:57:24   and I'm still doing that now. You're allowed to. You're still allowed to

00:57:27   do that. Like, and now you can use both now, like,

00:57:29   you know, because when you remap caps lock to escape, the escape key still does escape.

00:57:33   And so I'm able to use both now, but caps lock is so much bigger and closer to my pinky.

00:57:37   So there it is. So really you're just biding time until the

00:57:41   the touch bar makes it to everything.

00:57:43   You're basically pulling a John.

00:57:44   - Yeah, like when the touch bar makes it to everything,

00:57:47   if that's gonna be a thing,

00:57:48   which it probably will eventually,

00:57:51   you know, I'm not gonna like throw a huge fit over it.

00:57:54   The main reason I like this computer

00:57:56   is that it has the MacBook Air CPU class

00:57:59   and a massive battery in a really, really good size

00:58:03   and weight package.

00:58:05   The 13 inch with touch bar is only different

00:58:09   in a few of those factors.

00:58:10   Like it still is the same size and weight.

00:58:13   I would probably be very happy with that one as well,

00:58:16   but it has worse battery life,

00:58:18   and the touch bar has these downsides for me

00:58:21   that I don't love.

00:58:22   So for me, that's kind of a minor feature difference.

00:58:26   If there comes a time when I can only get

00:58:28   the model I want with a touch bar, I'll do it.

00:58:31   It'll be, you know, I won't love it, but it'll be fine.

00:58:35   - So since we've recorded, I believe,

00:58:38   yeah, because it was Monday. Apple has opened WWDC Lottery. So the way it works is, as of

00:58:47   two or three years ago now, you put your name in a hat. And if you are lucky enough to win

00:58:52   a lottery, really big hat, a really big hat. If you're lucky enough to win the lottery,

00:58:57   you have won the opportunity and you will take that opportunity. That's the way it works.

00:59:01   But you have won the opportunity to give Apple $1600 of your money and you will get a ticket

00:59:07   to WWDC in return.

00:59:10   So the lottery started this past Monday, and it runs, I believe, until Friday afternoon

00:59:17   evening, something like that, and then presumably shortly thereafter they will start telling

00:59:20   people whether or not they have made it in.

00:59:24   First question before we go any further is the obvious question, who put their name in

00:59:29   the hat?

00:59:30   I can tell you that I did.

00:59:31   I have listened to Under the Radar, so I know your answer, Marco, but why don't you share

00:59:35   with the group, please?

00:59:36   - Sure, I mean under the radar this week I go into detail,

00:59:40   but the summary of it is that this is the first year

00:59:43   since 2009 that I am not seeking a ticket.

00:59:46   And that's not because I think it's bad or anything,

00:59:49   it's simply because I have found in the last couple years

00:59:54   that my utility of the conference is going down.

00:59:58   Because I've just been to so many,

00:59:59   it gets a little repetitive after a while.

01:00:02   If you're a first timer or if you've only been

01:00:05   a couple times and you're still getting a lot

01:00:07   out of each time, by all means, go for it.

01:00:10   But for me, I've just found that I have gone so much

01:00:13   and it really is geared significantly towards newcomers

01:00:17   because usually about half or more of their attendees

01:00:20   are first timers.

01:00:22   So if you go every single year,

01:00:25   it starts getting a little bit less necessary for you.

01:00:28   So this year I've decided to focus instead

01:00:30   on the surrounding events.

01:00:32   I'm going to the Layers Conference,

01:00:33   which I highly recommend,

01:00:35   and I'll be around stuff like that.

01:00:38   But I decided this year to forego the official conference,

01:00:41   but I will be out there,

01:00:42   and I hope to see all of you there as well.

01:00:45   - Jon.

01:00:47   - I put my name in the ring again.

01:00:48   I really like WWDC still.

01:00:51   I would also like to go to Layers.

01:00:53   I'm not sure if I could swing both of them.

01:00:56   Obviously, I can't be physically in two places at once,

01:00:58   but it's also an added expense to pay for both of them.

01:01:00   - Let me tell you, as somebody who did that, you can't.

01:01:03   Like, you just can't.

01:01:05   I mean, the advantage of the layers is only,

01:01:08   I think, the first three days or two days,

01:01:10   and so you could at least go to WBC for the last

01:01:14   two or three days, but I did that two years ago,

01:01:16   and it was a huge waste.

01:01:18   It was a huge waste of both passes, really.

01:01:22   I felt bad that I, like, I had to miss, like,

01:01:24   half of layers and a good chunk of WBC,

01:01:27   like, just try to go to things from both.

01:01:28   So I would not recommend doing WWDC with another conference.

01:01:33   But if you don't get a ticket to that,

01:01:35   or if you'd rather would not go to that,

01:01:37   I do recommend Layers as an alternative conference.

01:01:41   - Yeah, so if I don't get a ticket to WWDC,

01:01:43   I will probably try to get a ticket to Layers,

01:01:45   just so I have some reason to actually travel out there

01:01:48   and don't get yelled at by you two for not coming.

01:01:50   - Wait, so you're gonna come?

01:01:51   - Oh, I am so happy right now, Jon, this is the best!

01:01:54   - Oh, I never thought you'd come, this is great.

01:01:56   - Yeah, me neither.

01:01:57   Come if I got layers if I didn't get tickets to anything then we're back to maybe not so much

01:02:02   That needs to be somebody's like text or ringtone, but anyway

01:02:07   No, that's fantastic news

01:02:09   I assumed that if you did not get a WWDC ticket that that was that the the story is over then

01:02:16   We we will not be seeing you this year

01:02:19   But that's fantastic

01:02:20   If I just come for layers I could I would probably also not be there for the same amount of time because layers is only three

01:02:26   so I basically come back earlier,

01:02:28   and that would hopefully reduce the expenses

01:02:30   of everything all around, you know, so.

01:02:33   - If you weren't there, you wouldn't get a chance

01:02:34   to see this year's version of my podcast recording setup,

01:02:38   'cause it changes every year, dramatically so.

01:02:40   (laughing)

01:02:42   - Oh man, that's funny.

01:02:43   - We're gonna have laugh mics this year,

01:02:44   is that what's happening?

01:02:45   - I was actually thinking about headsets.

01:02:47   I'm looking, I'm doing some research to see like,

01:02:49   are there any headsets that sound decent?

01:02:51   Because that would allow me to pack a lot less stuff overall.

01:02:54   - Yeah. - Oh my word.

01:02:55   Turns out microphone stands are massive in your suitcase.

01:02:59   I had to pay the overweight limit on my checked bag

01:03:02   last year.

01:03:02   It was full of microphone stands and stuff.

01:03:07   So yeah, trying to reduce that a little bit this year.

01:03:09   We'll see.

01:03:11   - So I did put my name in the hat,

01:03:12   and I cannot agree more that Layers is unbelievably good.

01:03:16   We know at least one of the women that run it,

01:03:22   Jessie Char, works with us.

01:03:24   And she is fantastic and amazing.

01:03:27   And the conference, unsurprisingly,

01:03:29   is fantastic and amazing.

01:03:31   - Layers is, if you've ever been

01:03:33   to another tech conference before,

01:03:36   you will immediately recognize

01:03:37   that Layers is a conference designed and run

01:03:41   by people who have been to a lot of other tech conferences

01:03:45   and have put a ton of thought and consideration

01:03:48   and effort into fixing and addressing the things

01:03:52   that everyone actually wants and needs

01:03:54   when they go to a tech conference.

01:03:55   And so you go there and there's like,

01:03:58   it's a really nice schedule, it's not like too packed,

01:04:02   the talks aren't too long,

01:04:03   there's lots of socialization time between things,

01:04:06   there's amazing snacks and coffee right there in the room.

01:04:10   - And hot chocolate.

01:04:11   - Yeah, and there's like Advil,

01:04:14   in case you drank too much the night before,

01:04:17   or whatever, it's like, they really,

01:04:19   they think of everything that you want

01:04:23   out of a tech conference, even if you don't realize that,

01:04:25   because they did think about it, they did realize it,

01:04:27   and they planned for it, and it's just awesome.

01:04:30   - So I wrote a review of Layers

01:04:33   shortly after I left last year,

01:04:35   and I'll put the link in the show notes,

01:04:37   but it begins as follows.

01:04:38   Layers is the fantasy conference we all wish existed

01:04:40   but are too scared or preoccupied or wimpy to put together,

01:04:44   and I stand by that a year later.

01:04:46   Layers is really fantastic.

01:04:47   It is not an also-ran WWDC.

01:04:50   It is equally as good.

01:04:51   So definitely check that out if you can.

01:04:55   I highly recommend it.

01:04:57   And Jesse's really awesome.

01:04:58   So that is a genuine and honest quasi-advertism

01:05:04   from all of us because we really like it that much.

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01:06:19   uh...

01:06:22   anyway uh... there's some interesting changes to w_d_c_ this year other than

01:06:26   the obvious uh... relocation to uh... san jose which i keep calling san diego

01:06:31   and conversation because my youngest brother lives in san diego and i keep

01:06:35   getting confused the same right

01:06:37   well it's totally next to each other so if i do that later i just just like

01:06:41   john said the other day uh... just fill in what i meant but anyway

01:06:45   Uh, they're, they're, like last year, Apple is to some degree, I don't know if I should

01:06:50   go so far as to say embracing, but perhaps acknowledging that there are other things

01:06:53   that are happening at the same time.

01:06:55   So on the WWDC site, there's a page called Beyond WWDC, and the header there reads, "In

01:07:02   addition to Apple's worldwide developers conference, a variety of other exciting developer events

01:07:08   will take place throughout the week in San Jose."

01:07:10   And they mention, among other things, layers, AltConf, which I've never actually gone to,

01:07:14   But I've heard very good things about.

01:07:17   This year, CocoConf, which I've gone to a couple of them, they're doing what they're

01:07:21   calling CocoConf Next Door, which is, I guess, either literally or figuratively next door

01:07:26   to WWDC.

01:07:27   Oh, it looks like it is literally next door to WWDC.

01:07:32   There's the Beard Bash talk show with John Gruber and James Dempsey and the Breakpoints,

01:07:35   which gets a special call out because that's a benefit concert for AppCamp for girls, which

01:07:42   is a organization that is near and dear to our hearts.

01:07:47   So you should definitely check that out if you happen to be in town.

01:07:50   And I think that's really cool that Apple is really starting to, again, if not embrace,

01:07:54   at least acknowledge that there are other things going on at the same time.

01:07:58   I know it happened last year, but I'm happy to see it back this year.

01:08:02   Additionally, there has been a couple of really fascinating brand new changes to the WWDC

01:08:10   site, which I am genuinely really excited about.

01:08:14   The first is something that we all got really, really crotchety about last year, and I think

01:08:19   deservedly so.

01:08:20   There's a code of conduct.

01:08:21   It is quite short, but as someone who is not a good reader of these things, it seems to

01:08:30   cover most bases, I say, with little conviction.

01:08:34   It looked fine to me.

01:08:35   I don't know.

01:08:36   Did you guys have any thoughts on the code of conduct?

01:08:38   typical Apple writing like get right to the point, cover all the bases, don't like...

01:08:43   because the longer you make it and the more complicated it is, the more it seems

01:08:46   like it's some kind of weird legal ease, this Apple trying to cover its butt,

01:08:49   versus what it's supposed to be, which is a thing that expresses the expectations

01:08:54   of guests, of you know, if you come to this, here's how you're expected to

01:08:57   behave. If you're here and people don't comply with this, then you know and

01:09:02   everybody knows it's explicitly against the rules, and here's what you do about

01:09:05   about it, right? And so that's all people were asking for. And like, the resistance

01:09:11   to code of conduct was always kind of, you know, essentially organizations as personified

01:09:17   by whoever you want to put as the head of the organization getting defensive, like,

01:09:20   what are you trying to say? Like, everybody's nice at our things, right? Why do we have

01:09:24   to have a code of conduct? We don't do anything anyway. Bad people are just going to do bad

01:09:27   things. Why have laws? People will just break them and you know, just goes around their

01:09:30   house like, oh, geez, just look, if everyone agrees that there's an expectation of behavior,

01:09:35   write it down and then write down what to do if something happens that against the thing

01:09:40   that you all think we agree on, right? And then actually follow through with it and if

01:09:45   something does happen and someone does report it then you will actually go and remedy the

01:09:50   situation rather than trying to sweep it under the carpet. That part can't be in the code

01:09:53   of conduct but it is the presumption, assuming that we think Apple is, you know, really behind

01:09:59   us. And I think they are behind it and I think last year they were just caught unaware by

01:10:03   this and probably like lawyers had to get involved and so on and so forth they just

01:10:06   had to get on the same page with everybody else like this is a thing that you should

01:10:09   have it is the baseline for any kind of conference and now Apple's on the same page with the

01:10:15   rest of the civilized world saying you know here's our code of conduct it is straightforward

01:10:20   it is the thing that we all think we all agree that we all believe in but now we've written

01:10:25   it down.

01:10:26   Yep so I'm really happy to see that there because there would have been hell to pay

01:10:30   and deservedly so had they ignored it for this year.

01:10:34   - Yeah, it's kind of amazing they didn't already have one

01:10:36   in previous years, honestly, but it is good to see it now.

01:10:39   - Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think it's because

01:10:41   just the kind of agreement of like,

01:10:43   look, everything's fine, we're all friends here,

01:10:44   everyone's cool, like there was already a code of conduct

01:10:48   not written down, implicit, because if you came to WWDC

01:10:51   and started acting like a hooligan in a way

01:10:54   that was visible to everybody, you would get kicked out,

01:10:57   and Apple would point to some legal aid that says,

01:10:59   "Look, we reserve the right to kick you out

01:11:01   "whenever the hell we want,

01:11:02   "and here's where you're being disruptive."

01:11:03   But in all the other cases of people doing things

01:11:06   that are not externally visible,

01:11:07   people having a bad time because of someone else's behavior

01:11:10   and them going to complain about it and be like,

01:11:11   "Well, I didn't see it, so there's nothing I can do,

01:11:13   "and they didn't cause a disruption,

01:11:14   "so we can't kick them out," and just like,

01:11:16   that's the point where you need to say,

01:11:17   "Look, these things are gonna happen.

01:11:20   "We have to have a policy about it, found it in something,

01:11:23   "not just to let it be, not just let it fall

01:11:25   "to whoever happens to be there

01:11:27   "to take the complaint at the time.

01:11:28   have something in writing on the front page of the thing that says, "This is how it's

01:11:31   supposed to work." So if something does go down, you can say, "Look, this is in violation

01:11:35   of you that everyone understands and everyone agrees, both the people who could potentially

01:11:39   perpetrate these kind of things and the people who are victims of them feel like that Apple

01:11:44   is behind that they're writing down what they say is supposed to be rather than just saying,

01:11:50   "I bet we're all nice and everything will be fine and we'll just get along." Right?

01:11:53   That's not a workable system in this day and age.

01:11:56   Certainly not. And not to turn this into the Layers Love Lounge, but the Layers Code of Conduct has emoji everywhere, which immediately means I'm paying very close attention to it. So here again, Layers knows what's up.

01:12:09   The other thing that is really exciting about the WWDC changes for this year is they're offering childcare. And the entire passage reads as follows.

01:12:18   Group childcare will be available free of charge for children 8 years old or younger and will be provided by corporate kids.

01:12:24   corporate kids. Make sure to include your need for child care during ticket registration

01:12:28   as space is limited." That is super awesome. It's super awesome even for somebody like

01:12:35   me. I don't think I'm going to take them up on this, and certainly I didn't enroll in

01:12:41   it when I put my name in the ring. But if hypothetically we wanted to, the three of

01:12:47   us, Erin and Declan and myself, go out to San Francisco for the week, and Erin wanted

01:12:52   to have five minutes to herself at any point, I could bring Declan to WWDC and have him

01:12:57   play with all the other kids, and Erin could go sightseeing, and I could learn, and everyone

01:13:02   is happy.

01:13:03   And so even for somebody like us, this is awesome, imagine how freaking amazing this

01:13:07   is for somebody who is, say, a single parent, or perhaps just a caregiver for whatever reason.

01:13:13   Like, there's a million and seven different ways why this is amazing, and I was not expecting

01:13:17   this.

01:13:18   I was expecting a code of conduct.

01:13:19   I was not expecting this, and this is awesome.

01:13:21   So I applaud Apple for both of these moves.

01:13:23   I think they're perhaps overdue, but still I'm really, really stoked about both of

01:13:28   them.

01:13:29   Yep, agreed.

01:13:30   We don't pay a lot of money for these tickets.

01:13:31   Like, they, you know, $1600 per person, you can do the math.

01:13:35   And Apple has to decide how to allocate that money.

01:13:37   Obviously they pay for the space, and they pay for, you know, safety and security, and

01:13:41   they pay to set up all the stuff in there.

01:13:42   And like, honestly, I don't know if WWDC is a profit center or not.

01:13:45   I imagine it would have to at least break even or something, but who knows.

01:13:48   But either way, they have to decide how to allocate their money.

01:13:51   And in the grand scheme of things, like when you're trying to decide what will make our

01:13:55   conference better, so you can layers a conference made by people who have been to a bunch of

01:14:00   other conferences and have found these are the things that annoy me and these are the

01:14:03   things that I wish existed, this is one of those things that can fundamentally change

01:14:08   the experience of the conference or just make it feasible for a whole set of people.

01:14:13   And if you have to trade that versus some of Casey's beloved Ottawa, that's a reasonable

01:14:18   trade. There's lots of other places where you could spend this money, right?

01:14:22   Well, let's not get too aggressive, Jon. Let's not take my Odwalla.

01:14:25   Well, yeah.

01:14:26   Just bring back Strawberry Sea Monster. That's all I ask.

01:14:30   A lot of people are like, "You're allergic to bananas, right?" A lot of people are

01:14:32   allergic to the strawberries.

01:14:34   Well, yeah, so have some variety. Don't have every flavor have banana in it. They

01:14:41   make one that doesn't. It's very popular, and they used to have it until like two years

01:14:44   ago.

01:14:45   The struggle is real.

01:14:46   type of thing is actually surprisingly expensive, and especially since space is limited. Offering

01:14:51   this as a service, as an amenity, as a thing that comes as part of your $1600, I'm sure

01:14:56   the people who are taking advantage of it would gladly trade for a bunch of extra danishes

01:15:01   that just go stale because nobody eats them or whatever. The costs of a thing like this

01:15:06   are surprisingly high, even for something as the silly stale danishes you eat, if you

01:15:10   know exactly how much each one of those costs in the grand scheme of things once you add

01:15:13   it all up.

01:15:14   - Well, the secret to the stale danishes is that

01:15:17   every year there is one type of danish that they serve

01:15:21   in the breakfast platter that actually is really good.

01:15:24   So it's kind of a sport to find out like, you know,

01:15:26   find out the one good one every year.

01:15:28   Like, see how, can you find it out by Tuesday morning?

01:15:30   Then you can have great breakfast the rest of the week.

01:15:31   - They're all pretty good.

01:15:32   And the ones with the fruit jam in the middle,

01:15:35   I'd say they're pretty good.

01:15:37   Blueberries, like pineapple, apple, all those are good.

01:15:41   I give those all a thumbs up.

01:15:43   You can basically live on those if you try real hard.

01:15:45   - See, now I'm regretting not getting a ticket this year

01:15:48   'cause I'm gonna miss all the stale danishes.

01:15:50   And 'cause they're gonna be new stale danishes

01:15:52   'cause it's gonna be a different venue.

01:15:53   - I'll give you a play-by-play of the terrible box lunches.

01:15:57   That's one place where they don't put the money.

01:15:59   - No. - They're not that bad.

01:16:00   - $1,600 is not going, which I'm all for

01:16:04   because there are plenty of other good places

01:16:05   where you can get food for a reasonable price around there,

01:16:09   but there are not places where you can drop off your child

01:16:12   and have them be close to you for a reasonable amount

01:16:14   of money during W2WBC.

01:16:15   So this is a wise allocation of resources.

01:16:18   This is exactly the type of thing that can make

01:16:20   the conference, again, not just like a more pleasant

01:16:23   experience for some people, but just plain possible

01:16:25   for people who previously couldn't even entertain

01:16:28   the idea of going.

01:16:29   - Exactly.

01:16:30   - Yeah, this is super great.

01:16:31   And I said it before, but I'll say it one more time.

01:16:34   I'm super excited that these are the moves

01:16:37   that Apple's making.

01:16:38   In a year where, I think the three of us have had

01:16:41   couple of complaints. This is 100%. This is 100%. I can't say two thumbs up because I'm

01:16:49   only one person. We got scolded about that once, but I will give a single thumb up because

01:16:55   that's all I'm permitted to do.

01:16:56   Don't allow that scolding. You have two thumbs. Who's got two thumbs?

01:16:59   This guy. So anyway, yeah, I'm really stoked about this and I am hopefully going to see

01:17:08   John there and then I'll be jealous of what Marco says at Layers or maybe I'll be with

01:17:13   Marco at Layers who even knows but we'll figure it out one way or the other but I am I am

01:17:17   already trying not to get my hopes up for the big John Syracuse hug that I always forget

01:17:24   how tall you are and that I have to reach up and get on my tippy toes to give you a

01:17:27   proper hug and I'm already looking forward to that awkward moment. Get ready John I'm

01:17:31   coming for you.

01:17:32   - My body is ready.

01:17:34   (laughing)

01:17:36   - I love you, I love you so much John Strychuska.

01:17:39   Oh my God, that's amazing.

01:17:41   - Thanks to our three sponsors this week.

01:17:43   Betterment, Audible, and Backblaze,

01:17:46   and we will see you next week.

01:17:48   (upbeat music)

01:17:51   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:17:53   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:17:56   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:17:57   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:17:58   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:18:00   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:18:01   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:18:06   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

01:18:09   It was accidental (accidental)

01:18:12   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:18:17   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:18:22   @c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s

01:18:26   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:18:30   Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C, USA, Syracuse

01:18:37   It's accidental, accidental

01:18:40   They didn't mean to, accidental, accidental

01:18:45   Tech broadcast so long

01:18:50   So I'm trying, somebody asked for a picture of the box lunches in the chat

01:18:54   and I am the kind of moron that certainly

01:18:56   Pictures don't do them justice

01:18:58   They are not terribly tasty, but I think you're over blowing how they are but I'm gonna put this in the notes

01:19:05   It's for next week. I

01:19:07   There I need to go into detail about what what really goes wrong with these lunches not today

01:19:11   But oh, well, do you want to just do that now? No, because we're gonna talk about Zelda

01:19:15   So I'm not cutting into my Zelda time. Hey, hey

01:19:18   Hello

01:19:20   Don't want to cut into your Zelda time John. Yeah, he wanted me to expound on wwc lunches, but I'm saving it for next week

01:19:26   Oh, that's good. Yeah, Zelda times better. Yeah, that's probably I do have tons of pictures of food from the beer bash coincidentally

01:19:33   But I have yet to find one of the box lunches. This is gonna bother me and anyway, hi Tiff. How are you? Hi

01:19:38   How are you guys? I'm doing well. Well, I see a picture of Odwalla. All right, I'll keep myself under control. Anyway

01:19:44   Tell me about

01:19:46   Zelda and how much I should regret not having picked up a switch

01:19:51   All right, so far as Zelda is excellent as John said

01:19:55   It is I don't know if you would like it Casey because I'm not quite sure you like

01:20:01   huge epic sandbox games where you

01:20:04   pick through things and find stuff and walk around and

01:20:08   Gather and fight here and there so quick background

01:20:13   I did play through the entirety of Ocarina of Time, which is not exactly the same, but I

01:20:20   Loved that game and okay

01:20:22   So I played about five to ten minutes of Breath of the Wild on my sister-in-law's switch

01:20:28   And then I played another five or ten minutes on my friend's switch and my friends and neighbors switch

01:20:34   So I've got probably a sum total of 15 minutes of playtime on this game and from what I experienced

01:20:39   In the brief window of time I did like it

01:20:43   the reason I haven't bought myself a switch other than being cheap is because I fear that I

01:20:49   I would either play through Zelda and then decide, "Okay, well, that's enough."

01:20:52   Or I will play through some of Zelda and then just give up on it to Tiff's point.

01:20:58   So I'm not really sure how I would feel about this, but in a brief window of time I played it,

01:21:04   I really liked it. Have you ever played Fable?

01:21:06   No, never even heard of it. He's never heard of Fable.

01:21:10   Anyway, it's a lot like Fable, right, Jon? Don't you think? Don't you feel the Fable-y vibe going

01:21:17   I feel so much fable. I never played fable, but I'm aware of the game and I know what I know what it's like

01:21:22   There's Xbox get off my podcast. It's on a Microsoft console. So John would not have any of that

01:21:26   Yeah, but it's fable, but I know I know about fable. But but yeah like it it is

01:21:32   For Casey's tastes like ocarina of time is definitely much more linear and follows a formula and it's a good formula

01:21:40   But breath of the wild is not that breath of the wild definitely brings in the big sandbox things people know the terminology when you

01:21:45   say a sandbox game, it's the idea that instead of having like, it's hard to talk about without

01:21:51   making references to other games like Uncharted or whatever, but instead of having an expected

01:21:55   series of steps, like you're gonna do this, then you're gonna do that, then you're gonna

01:21:59   do that, and this is how you're gonna play through the game to the ending of the game,

01:22:02   maybe multiple endings or whatever, instead it provides you like a sandbox, like on a

01:22:06   playground where it's just this big square, and it's got sand and toys and trucks in it,

01:22:10   And you can do, you know, and there is like a story to be had and solved, but a lot of

01:22:15   the game is just playing in the sandbox.

01:22:17   I'm gonna make a little castle over here.

01:22:18   I'm gonna drive my truck over there.

01:22:20   And it is what you make of it.

01:22:21   And that type of game can be like, you know, I don't get it, what's the point?

01:22:25   What am I even supposed to do?

01:22:26   This is boring if you're not into sandbox-type games.

01:22:29   Or if you just try to play it linearly, like I'm confused about where to go, and this game

01:22:33   doesn't seem to have much stuff in it, I play through the story too quickly.

01:22:35   But if you like sandbox games, and you like collecting things, and you like picking up

01:22:39   new items and finding new places to go and doing stuff.

01:22:43   This Zelda is amazing because it has a lot of the same traditional Zelda elements of

01:22:46   the overarching story and all the things you can do, but unlike so many past games it's

01:22:50   not like "go here, do this dungeon, get the boomerang which you will need to finish this

01:22:53   dungeon, the next dungeon you get this item and do that" like that, it doesn't do that

01:22:56   at all.

01:22:57   You can go wherever the hell you want including running to the final battle as soon as you

01:23:01   get out of the first level tutorial area and getting your butt kicked because you can't

01:23:04   beat it at that point.

01:23:07   just like spending the entire game like I wonder how many people will play Breath of

01:23:10   the Wild and literally never finish the main story because just playing the rest of the

01:23:15   game is more fun. Just slowly methodically exploring the sandbox, exploring the map,

01:23:21   collecting things, getting new outfits, catching new horses, just that can entertain you for

01:23:26   such an incredible period of time. And so I love both those type of things and this

01:23:30   is a great hybrid game for me. I'm really enjoying it. Both aspects of the story part

01:23:34   and the sandbox part.

01:23:36   - So you should totally play Fable

01:23:37   because the dynamics and everything in this game

01:23:42   in the new Zelda is exactly like Fable.

01:23:45   It's like you're not constantly searching out.

01:23:48   In old Zeldas, I skipped a couple,

01:23:50   so correct me if it changed,

01:23:52   but you find one weapon and then you slowly upgrade it

01:23:56   throughout the course of the game.

01:23:58   Like, oh, then you find the next weapon

01:24:00   and there's like six weapons, right?

01:24:02   or six main swords that you're searching for.

01:24:05   And here, it's more of like,

01:24:07   you get a sword and you use it for a while,

01:24:09   and then it breaks.

01:24:10   And then you find another sword and you use it for a while,

01:24:12   and then it breaks.

01:24:13   And so there's no like,

01:24:15   oh, now I have to search for the master sword

01:24:18   and get all these things in order to get the master sword.

01:24:21   It doesn't seem like that kind of thing.

01:24:23   It's so much, it's so like fable.

01:24:25   There's little people walking around

01:24:27   that you can trade with.

01:24:29   - You can get a pet dog if you want wolf, but same thing.

01:24:31   Yeah, well that's in fable too.

01:24:33   Like everything is.

01:24:33   - I know, that's what I'm saying, I know.

01:24:35   - It's so fably.

01:24:37   It's crazy fably.

01:24:38   - Wait, you can get dogs in Zelda?

01:24:40   - Well, a wolf.

01:24:41   - Well, but a dog.

01:24:43   - I accidentally ran over a fox just recently.

01:24:45   - Aw.

01:24:46   - And it was so sad.

01:24:47   - And you can eat him.

01:24:48   He turns into food.

01:24:49   - It turned into meat, but I ran over it with my horse.

01:24:51   So it was an accident.

01:24:52   - Yeah, how far, I don't want to spoil things,

01:24:53   but how far are you in the game?

01:24:56   I'm talking to the old wise lady and running some errands for her.

01:25:03   As you do.

01:25:05   Any major story elements that you have progressed that you think would be markers towards completion?

01:25:10   I don't want to spoil.

01:25:12   I'm up to the silly camera dynamic.

01:25:18   How much of the map have you unlocked percentage wise?

01:25:21   I haven't unlocked much.

01:25:23   It's not showing me a lot, but I've been wandering all over the place.

01:25:27   How many towers basically?

01:25:28   Oh, I don't know.

01:25:30   Maybe like 11 or 12.

01:25:32   11 towers?

01:25:33   I mean, they're really tall things that when you unlock them they reveal a new portion

01:25:37   of the map.

01:25:38   None of those yet.

01:25:39   I've only been playing for like two days.

01:25:40   None?

01:25:41   Zero?

01:25:42   I mean, obviously you've done the first one, right?

01:25:44   You got off the Great Plateau.

01:25:45   Yes.

01:25:46   Yes, and then after that, you get off the Great Plateau and you go to that tower and

01:25:49   it reveals the first section of the map.

01:25:51   So that's one tower right there.

01:25:52   the very, very tall ones that you have to climb up, right?

01:25:56   - Yeah, I haven't done those yet.

01:25:58   I didn't even try climbing them.

01:25:59   The ones that are lit up.

01:26:01   - Yeah, all right, well, see,

01:26:02   I already spoiled something for you.

01:26:04   All right, you are very,

01:26:06   you are not far into this game at all.

01:26:07   And I think you're the type of person who may get lost

01:26:10   in just like, you know, finding items and--

01:26:12   - I've just been doing the little temples

01:26:14   and finding chickens, like, I don't know.

01:26:17   I'm busy, I'm busy finding horses.

01:26:19   I wanted to make sure I got a teal one

01:26:21   with dots on its butt.

01:26:22   I was very specific.

01:26:23   - The horses, the horses I find a little frustrating.

01:26:25   And speaking of the wolf pets,

01:26:27   that's the one thing that annoys me about this.

01:26:28   - How do I get a wolf pet?

01:26:29   I'm very excited about this part.

01:26:30   'Cause I just keep running over foxes.

01:26:31   - Step one, don't run them over.

01:26:33   - Well, I'm sorry, it was an accident.

01:26:35   I felt really bad 'cause the foxes are super cute.

01:26:37   - As long as you eat them, use every part of the fox.

01:26:39   - I did, I did.

01:26:40   Ding, ding, ding, da, ding, da, da, ding, da, ding.

01:26:42   - So one monetary thing that Nintendo has been using

01:26:45   recently that's very frustrating is they want you to buy

01:26:48   their little amiibo plastic toys.

01:26:51   And then the little plastic toys,

01:26:53   because they have a little NFC thing on them

01:26:54   that you hold up to the controller or whatever.

01:26:56   - Oh my, yes, I know what you mean.

01:26:57   - Unlock stuff in the game,

01:26:59   which annoys me because it's an additional thing

01:27:01   you have to buy,

01:27:02   but as someone who's willing to spend lots of money on games,

01:27:05   whatever, what really annoys me is you can't buy them

01:27:09   because nobody has them unless you want to go on eBay.

01:27:11   It's like, "Nintendo, make more of this plastic crap

01:27:13   "so I can buy it."

01:27:14   I'm ready to give you an unseemly amount of money

01:27:17   for amiibo plastic toys,

01:27:19   just so I can take the little NFC thing

01:27:20   and bop it on my controller and get the in-game items

01:27:23   that they give because they give some good items

01:27:25   in this game.

01:27:26   Now I have the amiibo from like the special edition

01:27:27   Wind Waker HD version, gave you the Wolf Link amiibo.

01:27:31   And if you use the Wolf Link amiibo,

01:27:33   you get the Wolf companion in this game, he just appears.

01:27:37   - Oh yeah, Marco, I'm gonna need that.

01:27:39   - Yeah, so Marco, if you find that amiibo connection,

01:27:41   let me know too, because I've been trying to buy these.

01:27:43   You should just go online and you can see this amiibo

01:27:45   gives you this, this amiibo gives you that.

01:27:46   So just get the amiibos that give you the things

01:27:48   that you want.

01:27:49   - Adam's gonna be so into that.

01:27:50   Adam's gonna be crazy.

01:27:51   He was really, he wants to play.

01:27:53   He wants to play a lot.

01:27:54   Like he wants to walk around Link

01:27:57   and he was telling Marco how to play.

01:27:59   - Someone needs to.

01:28:00   - It was kind of incredible.

01:28:01   - Yeah, he wanted to teach me how to play the game

01:28:03   and so I walk over and he's like,

01:28:04   "All right, that stick, you move that,

01:28:07   "that one you move and this one you look."

01:28:10   Like he already figured out like the dual analog stick

01:28:13   movement and looking thing that is standard

01:28:16   in all first person games.

01:28:17   Most adults can't figure that out for a while

01:28:20   And he's four and he was explaining it to me as if I didn't know.

01:28:23   It's pretty great.

01:28:24   >> The thing about the wolf link amiibo thing is that depending on how well you did in a

01:28:30   portion of the Wind Waker HD game, that influences what kind of health your wolf has when you

01:28:36   instantiate him in Breath of the Wild, which is kind of fun and a nice connection between

01:28:40   those two games.

01:28:41   You get a default amount if you haven't played the previous one.

01:28:43   But yeah, the amiibo angle is a little bit annoying.

01:28:44   You don't need them to finish the game or anything, but I want some of the items they

01:28:47   give, not the wolf, but I want some other things and I can't find the amiibos in stores

01:28:52   or online anywhere except for ridiculous prices on eBay, so that is frustrating.

01:28:56   So no, wait, hold on.

01:28:58   What you just said is that the state of a, like an NPC in the prior Zelda is carried

01:29:06   over into this Zelda?

01:29:08   One of your achievements is a particular dungeon that you do and when you complete a certain

01:29:11   section of the dungeon how many hearts you have left translates to how many hearts the

01:29:15   the wolf Link has when you instantiate him in the new game.

01:29:18   It's just like a little NFC tap pad thingy.

01:29:20   It's not super high tech.

01:29:22   - So like, if we've never heard of these things

01:29:24   and never done anything, do we get like a slow,

01:29:27   emotionally damaged wolf or like,

01:29:29   do we get like a good one?

01:29:30   - Everything's the same about him.

01:29:31   He'll probably just have a little bit less health than mine

01:29:33   or maybe a lot less, but either way, like if he dies,

01:29:36   you can, I think he has a cool down

01:29:37   and you can just reinstantiate him.

01:29:39   He's honestly not that particularly useful

01:29:41   because like any sort of NPC fighting aid type of thing,

01:29:45   It's, you know, it helps a little bit,

01:29:47   but then a lot of time you just spend worrying about it.

01:29:49   Same thing with the horses, by the way.

01:29:50   Horses, I'm worried, I don't wanna spoil things for you,

01:29:53   but anyway, I was worried.

01:29:55   I had some problems with my horse companions as well,

01:29:58   so I'm mostly a loner out there.

01:30:00   - What was your problem?

01:30:02   You just got--

01:30:03   - I don't wanna spoil anything for you, just play the game.

01:30:05   - Oh, also, I've been feeling--

01:30:06   - Glue factory.

01:30:07   - I've been feeling super bad about--

01:30:09   - Wow. (laughs)

01:30:10   - Poor horses.

01:30:11   I've been feeling super bad about breaking things

01:30:13   in the village, even though I know it's part of the game

01:30:16   to like find stuff.

01:30:17   - No, you gotta, it was tradition.

01:30:18   You gotta break those pots.

01:30:19   You see pots, they need to be broken.

01:30:21   - No, but I feel really bad because now it feels

01:30:24   like so personal because they're like people

01:30:27   and they're walking around and they like kinda talk

01:30:29   to you more.

01:30:30   - One of them might have money in it.

01:30:31   I mean, it could happen.

01:30:33   - No, I just, I feel really guilty now

01:30:35   about like taking fruit out of shrines

01:30:37   and I just, I can't, I'm feeling really guilty

01:30:41   about this game.

01:30:42   like are you really saving this kingdom?

01:30:44   - I don't know, but I'm feeling like it's a mix

01:30:46   between like fable and I'm worried about going

01:30:47   to the bad side and like I just, I have all these,

01:30:51   I'm panicked. - Yeah, that's not gonna happen.

01:30:53   But it's revenge of the old mechanics

01:30:55   because like in past Zeldas, I was the scourge

01:30:59   of grass everywhere, as every player who's played it

01:31:01   in Zelda. - Oh, as everyone

01:31:02   has ever been. - If you see grass,

01:31:04   it must be cut, you know why?

01:31:06   Because sometimes when you cut grass,

01:31:08   money pops out, or hearts, but mostly money

01:31:11   So then you're like grass must cut it and what does this game do it gives you?

01:31:15   gigantic fields of grass and weapons that wear down when you cut with them and you're like

01:31:19   Must cut grass but must not cut grass and there's some pottery must break pots

01:31:24   But but but no don't break pots because it will wear what if I pick up the pottery and throw it

01:31:29   But then the people will be angry at me and the game has lots of in-game text it

01:31:32   Teases you about previous Zelda games mechanics when you do one of the things from it's a lot of fun

01:31:38   - At least they kept those cute little leaf dudes.

01:31:41   I'm super happy about that.

01:31:42   It's adorable. - Oh, the Koroks, yeah.

01:31:44   - Yeah. - They're cool.

01:31:45   - I'm liking that I see a lot of the older game creatures

01:31:49   kind of in this world also.

01:31:52   And like the ones from Wind Waker, right?

01:31:55   You know, they're all over the place,

01:31:57   the same kind of demon-y things and yeah.

01:32:01   Wind Waker, is Wind Waker, I don't know, what's it called?

01:32:03   - Wind Waker is the boat one.

01:32:05   - Yeah, yeah.

01:32:06   - And you've got the Octoroks, you know,

01:32:07   - Yep, yep, you have those.

01:32:10   Yeah, there's so much, so good.

01:32:12   - The main thing that I'm enjoying about this game,

01:32:15   and it's not just the sandboxing,

01:32:16   it's lots of games are sandboxing,

01:32:17   but this is not, I mean, 'cause you know,

01:32:19   Grand Theft Auto or whatever is a sandbox game, right?

01:32:21   But this is, like the title is appropriate,

01:32:23   Breath of the Wild, the main sort of theme of this game,

01:32:27   and it's embodied in both the mechanics

01:32:28   and in the sandbox nature of it,

01:32:32   is that you are out in the wild,

01:32:34   and so it's not entirely man versus nature,

01:32:37   There's a lot of that from the very beginning of the game just getting hot and getting cold but in general just like

01:32:41   Wanting to see what's over the next rise and and wanting to see

01:32:46   You know the the sense of exploration like what's gonna be over there or what could that be or whatever and as a couple people

01:32:52   Pointed out and discussions on Twitter

01:32:54   so many

01:32:55   sandboxy games like even things like very popular games like Oblivion or the Elder Scrolls series and stuff like that there were sandbox games with

01:33:03   huge worlds, very detailed, all sorts of stuff. You'd see something, I wonder what's over

01:33:08   that peak? That looks like a little interesting valley over there. And you'd spend your time

01:33:12   making this long trek to this distant peak, which is cool, you can do it in a sandbox

01:33:15   game. If you can see it, you can go there, and you would just go and work your way there,

01:33:19   and there's random encounters with enemies, and you go through some villages, and you

01:33:22   take a break and get some food or whatever, and you finally make it to what you think

01:33:24   is this really cool little nook or waterfall, and there is nothing there. Like, it is just

01:33:29   more textures and scenery. And the thing that Breath of the Wild does so well is that even

01:33:35   though it is a huge world, it is obviously a huge world that humans have carefully constructed

01:33:40   so that if something looks tempting or interesting, when you get there, there will be something

01:33:44   there. Not the world's greatest thing, but some reason for you to have arrived there,

01:33:48   some reward for getting there, and that the most interesting things are in areas that

01:33:52   look interesting that will lure you toward them. And it makes you feel like, "I'm a genius

01:33:55   for finding this thing here." It's like, "No, you're not. They made it look cool and inviting.

01:33:59   They may say, "I wonder what that is off in the distance.

01:34:01   That looks kind of interesting, where there's like a little twinkle, or that looks like

01:34:04   it would be a neat little cove, or have a nice little tree, or just looks like..."

01:34:07   I mean, maybe we're sensing that there are certain sections of it that are more massaged

01:34:11   by human hands than others, but the idea of like...

01:34:14   It just continues to amaze me that even just when areas are mapped out, you look on the

01:34:21   map and they give areas names, like little regions' names, and you're like, "That's an

01:34:25   interesting name."

01:34:26   Or they put a little thing on the map, like a little drawing on the map, like, "That looks

01:34:28   And you go there and like recently I had a big ordeal getting to a particular section of the map

01:34:32   And I'm playing with my son, and he's like dad

01:34:34   You know it was very difficult to get there, and we were using a lot of our food

01:34:38   And it was like just why are we even going here just turn back

01:34:42   We're using up all of our food, and this is a waste of time

01:34:44   And we've been trying to do this like a harrowing journey through you know

01:34:47   Elemental dangers and random enemies, and you know my son is getting bored or whatever, but I'm like no

01:34:52   I really want to get to that part because just because it looked interesting on the map like I didn't actually see it with my

01:34:57   own eyeballs and when we got there it was totally worth it and he had to admit

01:35:01   like that was a good idea and why did they put this out here in the corner of

01:35:04   the map that is super duper hard to get to because they knew people would just

01:35:07   try to get there to see what that thing is and when they get there they are

01:35:10   rewarded and that's that is the number one thing that I love about this game

01:35:13   the sense of exploration and adventure and the fact that every time I go

01:35:16   exploring or on some you know damn fool crusade as they would say and movie

01:35:21   that Marco and Casey will not remember.

01:35:24   - Nope.

01:35:25   - Nope.

01:35:26   - I am rewarded for that at the end.

01:35:27   So I envy your largely unlocked map.

01:35:31   All the place, oh, the places you will go,

01:35:33   which there you go, you remember that one.

01:35:34   All the places you will go in Zelda still.

01:35:37   So much to see, so much to do, so much fun.

01:35:39   - Well, that's good to know that it's worth it

01:35:40   because I've climbed some mountains

01:35:42   and it was pretty good up there, you know,

01:35:45   like I blew up some rocks and stuff,

01:35:46   but I've definitely was able to climb a lot more mountains

01:35:49   than I have been in other sandbox games.

01:35:51   you know, usually it's like, oh yeah,

01:35:52   you can climb this mountain, but you really can't, sorry.

01:35:55   That's just a fake. - Climbing is big.

01:35:57   - Yeah, so I'm pretty excited that you can go.

01:35:59   - Climb every mountain, ford every stream.

01:36:02   - That's right. - Follow every what?

01:36:04   - Okay, Maria.

01:36:05   Okay. - River!

01:36:07   - No, your name is Maria. - Until, come on,

01:36:08   someone's gotta be able to sing this.

01:36:10   - Nope. - You, nope.

01:36:11   - Until you find your dream.

01:36:13   - Thank you, Tiff. - You're welcome.

01:36:15   - I don't even know what song you're thinking of.

01:36:16   - Oh my gosh. - Yeah, you don't.

01:36:18   - I'm sure I do know it, but darned if I could place it

01:36:20   based just on the lyrics.

01:36:21   - I always have to remember that Tiff married

01:36:23   into this family and she is not genetically doomed

01:36:26   to not know anything about hop culture like Marco is.

01:36:28   So I can talk to her on the level of the rest

01:36:30   of normal people and she'll get my references.

01:36:32   - That's why we are team Strong Island, Jon.

01:36:37   - Strong Island. - Oh my God.

01:36:39   All right, so is there anything else on Zelda?

01:36:45   Like I'm not trying to shut you guys up.

01:36:46   I just, I have nothing I can contribute

01:36:48   to this conversation anymore, so.

01:36:49   - It is quite a big epic game, as Jon was just describing.

01:36:54   And I feel like if you aren't ready to get into that,

01:36:57   or that doesn't appeal to you,

01:36:58   then buying a system just for this game

01:37:00   probably wouldn't be a great idea.

01:37:03   - Oh, no, no, no, I think if I were to buy a Switch,

01:37:04   I would probably get Zelda,

01:37:06   because I expect I would like it.

01:37:08   But really, the system would just be

01:37:10   a glorified Mario Kart delivery system,

01:37:13   which is probably preposterous,

01:37:15   since my understanding is the whatever version

01:37:18   Mario Kart that ends up on the Switch is not going to be too terribly different than what's

01:37:21   on the Wii U.

01:37:22   But you never played the Wii U one, so it's all new to you.

01:37:25   Exactly.

01:37:26   Also, you know, I think some of this comes from me just getting bowled over by seeing

01:37:32   in the Switch trailer or whatever you want to call it that came out in October, when

01:37:38   they showed—and I think it was a basketball game that they were showing—but they showed

01:37:42   a couple of people playing the same game on one Switch, which I thought was really clever,

01:37:47   even more clever was when they had like a series of switches or switch eye or whatever

01:37:52   around like in a circle and in the the implication was that they were all linked together somehow

01:37:59   and they're all playing the same game across like six different switches which I just thought

01:38:02   looked amazing and so I'm having this vision of like me and my sister-in-law getting our

01:38:06   you know getting the family together and being able to like play Mario Kart across two different

01:38:13   switches against each other with each other or what have you and gosh only knows if that'll

01:38:16   you'll even be supported, but that's the dream, man,

01:38:19   and it just looks awesome.

01:38:21   - I think your hesitation on the Switch makes sense

01:38:25   if the idea of getting into this giant fantasy world game

01:38:30   is not massively pushing you to buy it.

01:38:34   Because like, you know, I bought it

01:38:36   'cause I had a good opportunity to,

01:38:38   and there were a couple games on the roadmap

01:38:40   that I'm excited about, like Mario Kart.

01:38:41   - And you also buy everything.

01:38:43   - And that as well.

01:38:45   But I bought it because there was other stuff

01:38:50   like Mario Kart on the roadmap that I want.

01:38:52   And I bought Zelda thinking that, you know,

01:38:54   everyone says this is an amazing game,

01:38:57   so maybe I should try it, even though I traditionally

01:38:59   do not like games like this.

01:39:02   - I mean, and your son was Zelda for Halloween.

01:39:04   I mean, not Zelda, sorry.

01:39:05   Oh my gosh, I did it!

01:39:06   Ah, he was Link for Halloween.

01:39:07   - You're fine, you're fine.

01:39:08   You made the outfit, you're allowed one slip.

01:39:10   - Yeah.

01:39:11   Oh, and Splatoon.

01:39:12   Splatoon is supposed to be really good.

01:39:13   I've never ever played that ever, ever, ever.

01:39:15   So I would probably pick that up in my hypothetical world

01:39:18   where I have a Switch.

01:39:20   - Right, and so basically, if you are like me

01:39:23   and if Zelda is not like the massive thing

01:39:26   that you absolutely must do because you love games like this

01:39:29   then this is not the right time to buy a Switch

01:39:30   because there's very little else out right now.

01:39:33   I played that Fast RMX or something like that.

01:39:37   It's like, it's the Wipeout clone.

01:39:38   It's cool, it's a decent game.

01:39:40   It's not amazing, it isn't that different

01:39:41   from the AG Drive series on iOS.

01:39:46   It's pretty much the same thing, but more expensive.

01:39:48   - So you'd buy Snipperclips?

01:39:50   - I downloaded the demo, I haven't launched it yet,

01:39:52   but I guess I'll try that next.

01:39:54   - Try that, you and Adam try that together,

01:39:55   he'll show you how to play.

01:39:56   - Okay. (laughs)

01:39:58   But yeah, I think seeing Zelda, seeing Tiff play it,

01:40:03   and seeing, she and Adam enjoy it a lot, and that's great,

01:40:05   it's very nice and cute to watch,

01:40:07   but boy am I glad that I didn't play it,

01:40:10   because I would be miserable.

01:40:11   It is so not my kind of game.

01:40:14   And even though I can respect how much everyone else

01:40:18   seems to say how good it is,

01:40:20   if you're not into that kind of game,

01:40:22   I don't think this is gonna sway you.

01:40:24   So all this is to say that I'm sure glad that Tiff

01:40:28   is playing this thing that I stupidly bought.

01:40:30   And Casey, if you are on the fence about whether

01:40:34   Zelda is a big driver for you to buy it,

01:40:36   I'd say you're safe to wait.

01:40:38   - Hey John, do you have those little puppy stickers?

01:40:41   - Oh, for the controller?

01:40:43   - Yeah!

01:40:44   - Like to put the little slide thingies?

01:40:45   No, I do not have the Puppyface stickers.

01:40:47   - Oh, I got some.

01:40:47   - I don't use that controller,

01:40:48   I just use the pro controller.

01:40:49   - It doesn't matter, I put the sticker on it,

01:40:51   it just sits on the table and it looks super cute.

01:40:54   It looks like a little messed up puppy.

01:40:56   It's with its eyes all jacked up.

01:40:58   I have an extra if you want it.

01:41:03   - I'm betting he doesn't.

01:41:05   - You do.

01:41:06   - Yeah, I'm not big on putting stickers on my electronics,

01:41:07   not sure if you've heard.

01:41:08   - No, this is like a legit, it's different.

01:41:11   This is different, Jon.

01:41:13   It's different.

01:41:14   - So like one of those static vinyl stickers

01:41:15   that doesn't actually leave any sticky stuff

01:41:17   and can come off cleanly at any time?

01:41:18   - Yeah, it'll be fine.

01:41:19   Just put it on.

01:41:20   - Yeah, right.

01:41:21   - You put stickers on your keyboard though, didn't you?

01:41:22   - Me?

01:41:23   No, I only have a tiny little sticker.

01:41:25   - No, it's an overlay for the Photoshop keyboard,

01:41:27   but it's like a rubber thing you just pick up.

01:41:29   - And it just traps all the dirt underneath it,

01:41:32   so when you pick it up, it's so horrifying,

01:41:33   you just put it right back down.

01:41:35   - Is the dishwasher safe?

01:41:37   - I don't know, I don't know.

01:41:39   - It's never been cleaned, I don't know.

01:41:41   We just replace it every three years or so.

01:41:43   - Yeah, when it starts deteriorating and ripping

01:41:46   from hand oils.

01:41:47   Oh my God, this is getting gross.

01:41:49   Run away.

01:41:50   - Yeah, I wish, Marco, you should watch Tiff plays.

01:41:53   Even though you're not into playing,

01:41:54   she's gonna get up to some business eventually.

01:41:57   - He fell asleep.

01:41:58   - And you should just check out what she gets up to.

01:41:59   Yeah, you can fall asleep while you watch, that's fine.

01:42:01   - I fall asleep within the first five minutes.

01:42:03   - Maybe Tiff needs to involve you more

01:42:06   And like, once she has a couple of projects in the works,

01:42:09   that she can explain to you what it is that she's doing,

01:42:12   you can get into it.

01:42:13   - Ooh.

01:42:14   - Or at least you could be a navigator

01:42:16   and like decide where you're going to go together

01:42:18   and you as a family can travel to far off places.

01:42:21   - You can look for the arrow twinkle.

01:42:23   - See, this is, Adam plays this role very, very well

01:42:25   as like the co-pilot to Tiff as she plays.

01:42:28   I am not good at this.

01:42:29   I just fall asleep and lose interest.

01:42:31   - Although he's getting super useful now

01:42:33   'cause when I have to go to the bathroom,

01:42:34   I'm like, here, you drive for a while.

01:42:36   and he like walks around and picks up some stuff.

01:42:39   - Come back and you're in the middle of a lake.

01:42:41   - Yeah, it's fine.

01:42:42   He got our horse lost for a little while.

01:42:45   - What'd you name your horse?

01:42:46   Horse names are an important thing in this game.

01:42:47   - Okay, he named the first horse, I can't remember.

01:42:52   No, he just made it up some word that starts with M.

01:42:55   Anyway, the horse that I'm driving right now is named Arby.

01:42:59   - Like the restaurant?

01:43:00   - I don't know.

01:43:01   He thinks that only legitimate words start with A,

01:43:04   like his name, so he picked Arby.

01:43:06   (laughing)

01:43:07   - Well, the system works.

01:43:07   - And he also thinks that any string of characters

01:43:10   that starts with A is a real word.

01:43:12   (laughing)

01:43:13   - Yep.

01:43:14   Yeah.

01:43:15   - Well, for names, that kind of works.

01:43:16   - Oh, Menina?

01:43:18   Menina.

01:43:18   I think that that's what he named the first horse.

01:43:20   I don't know.

01:43:21   - You might have to alternate naming rights for horses

01:43:23   if it's gonna continue like this,

01:43:24   'cause you won't be able to keep them straight.

01:43:25   - Yeah, well, I only have three so far.

01:43:27   The first two we picked out were crap,

01:43:29   but they're in the stable anyway,

01:43:31   and the third one's pretty good.

01:43:33   Arby's reliable, he's a good horse.

01:43:36   He's a good horse, John.

01:43:38   - Cool, well thank you Tiff for swinging by

01:43:40   and dropping some knowledge, as usual.

01:43:43   - All right, dropping the fierce knowledge

01:43:45   on the video games.

01:43:46   I had to go back to Zelda, goodbye.

01:43:48   (beeping)