214: Christmas Phone


00:00:00   Maybe you can switch to maybe maybe you have sufficient girth to do a one-legged thing where like instead of putting a laptop on

00:00:06   Both legs can it can it sit can it sit on one leg you can have one laptop on each leg you would do a wielding?

00:00:11   Cool I think we're all set so I have notes on everything that happened, but I didn't check the notes in the document

00:00:20   Your own personal notes well guess what I have

00:00:24   Notes shared notes follow-up you of course you do we can breathe we can breeze through it. These are all quick

00:00:31   Marco into a

00:00:35   Deep 20-minute feelings on each one of these items we can get through it Oh shots fired

00:00:40   It's gonna be like that. I would like you to listen to recent episodes and see what percentage of follow-up items

00:00:47   I emit a single word about yeah, but it just takes one it only takes one that gets you going and that becomes

00:00:54   films, half the show. Anyway, we can get through these quickly because Marco's not interested.

00:00:59   Oh my god, every time you say that, all that means is everyone is looking at the chapter

00:01:03   mark to see where the first topic begins. Don't look at the chapter markers, just listen

00:01:07   to the show. Just be, just experience the show. Be in the moment. You have to be the

00:01:11   show. Be in the moment. Alright, so Steven Impson writes, "In case nobody mentioned,

00:01:15   turns out, turns out, the Wii U gamepad had less display lag than most TVs." And we'll

00:01:20   put a couple links in the show notes. John, you're the only one of us with the Wii U,

00:01:23   I believe so you want to tell us about this? I think John's the only one with a Wii U

00:01:26   Very well, maybe yeah

00:01:29   That was last week

00:01:30   Where I was saying that I like to use the gamepad for Mario Kart because it felt like there was actually less lag than a TV

00:01:36   Which seems crazy because it is wirelessly sending video to the thing so I actually I had read this article back when I came out

00:01:41   I just forgot about it because I'm old

00:01:43   Apparently it's measured to be about 33 milliseconds of lag for the video on the Wii U gamepad

00:01:50   Which sounds like a lot until you realize that TVs especially TVs that are either not in game mode or

00:01:56   Can't get into a decent game mode that where they turn off all the image processing the input lag for TVs

00:02:01   Especially if you went through a receiver and then through a TV can be up to like a hundred milliseconds

00:02:06   So I wasn't imagining it. It is very likely that my complete TV setup as

00:02:12   Configured at the time I was doing this is actually slower than using the Wii U gamepad itself. So good job Nintendo

00:02:17   I'm minimizing that lag, bad job, whole rest of the AV industry on having horrendous lag,

00:02:23   input lag for television setups.

00:02:25   What's the mechanism that the video is being broadcast to the gamepad?

00:02:28   Is that like a private Wi-Fi or something?

00:02:30   Yeah, I think it's like an H.264 stream over a wireless thing.

00:02:35   I think it's proprietary.

00:02:36   I don't think it is just like literal Wi-Fi, but I don't know actually.

00:02:40   So it could be like a, is an airdrop like a peer-to-peer thing that's kind of stood

00:02:44   up just in the moment and then destroy it after you transfer the file or files or something

00:02:48   like that.

00:02:49   Maybe it's one of those sort of scenarios.

00:02:51   Who knows?

00:02:52   Fair enough.

00:02:53   All right, in the interest of speedy follow-up for the first time ever, tell us what happened

00:02:56   with your Zelda HUD.

00:02:58   I'm playing Zelda, as everybody knows, and Zelda does have a HUD.

00:03:03   So it's every past Zelda game.

00:03:04   They always have something on the screen that's showing a little mini-map or like Skyward

00:03:09   Sword had this giant honking picture of the Wiimote, which you could turn off.

00:03:12   And I did turn off, um, another little status indicator.

00:03:15   Uh, Breath of the Wild has the traditional line of hearts in the upper left-hand corner.

00:03:20   In the lower right, it's got a little circular map thing and some other little icons.

00:03:23   Underneath the hearts, it has a couple of other items that appear as you progress through

00:03:28   the game.

00:03:29   Don't want to spoil anything for people.

00:03:30   The problem with those items is that they are white much of the time.

00:03:34   100% completely opaque white, and my TV hates that.

00:03:38   And so, after playing Breath of the Wild for, I don't know, 20 or 30 hours, I notice I'm

00:03:42   I'm getting inventory retention in the upper left corner for the white items.

00:03:45   Luckily, Breath of the Wild has a HUD option, which I saw when I first started playing the

00:03:49   game, because of course, being a nerd, I always go into all the options first before starting

00:03:53   anything.

00:03:54   [laughter]

00:03:55   And they call it the Pro HUD, which turns off basically everything except for your hearts.

00:04:00   And I said, "Well, I don't want to turn everything off.

00:04:02   It's a pretty minimal HUD to begin with.

00:04:04   It's very minimal, very pushed off to the side, so it's nice."

00:04:06   And I like seeing the things.

00:04:07   Some of them are useful, like you're just seeing the compass direction and stuff like

00:04:10   that.

00:04:11   That turned out to have been mistakes now. I'm using the pro HUD which only shows hearts

00:04:15   The hearts are 100% Brit red and opaque so they are causing some heart-shaped image retention in the upper left

00:04:20   But they do vary a little bit as you take damage at the very least and 100% red is much better than 100% white

00:04:27   So I'm not kicking Zelda off my TV yet and moving it to the to the the gaming

00:04:31   Monitor or anything I think I'm just going to accept the amount of image retention because I know from our destiny experiment that yes

00:04:39   You will get image retention, but it is not permanent if you merely wait a year

00:04:42   It will go away and someone is suggesting that I get OLED OLED also has image retention guess what?

00:04:47   You know if you had brought a TV with a proper technology that doesn't have image retention

00:04:54   This would have been a lot easier

00:04:55   But no you had to have you had to have the blackest blacks and the darkest

00:04:59   I'm saying even LCDs have image retention mine has it mine has it worse

00:05:04   Yeah, and vibrant colors like seriously on my gaming monitor

00:05:08   It is such an incredible difference in what the game looks like compared to what it looks like on TV and breath of the wild

00:05:12   It's the type of game they want to experience and there's not a lot of HUD in breath of the wild

00:05:16   It is actually pretty darn minimal

00:05:18   So I want to see the full rich experience and to get the 5.1 surround sound which is they don't take that much advantage

00:05:23   Of the speakers are better. Anyway, I'm not kicking it off yet. We'll check back in next week fair enough

00:05:28   Karsten Weiss, maybe Vice, writes in to talk about high-end desktop processors, which I

00:05:35   really don't care that much about, so one of you can take this.

00:05:37   This is in reference to me asking, last show, if Intel makes any processors that are not

00:05:43   Xeons that have more than four cores that in theory could be used in an iMac, and Marco

00:05:47   said no, and a lot of people tweeted that actually they make these a bunch of processors

00:05:52   with indecipherable numeric, alphanumeric names that have 10 cores and 8 cores and 6

00:05:57   and other people chimed in on Twitter to say actually those are basically just Xeons rebranded

00:06:01   and renamed but without ECC RAM and different chipsets that require them.

00:06:06   Either way it seems like however you want to slice it.

00:06:09   There are other options that are not the same as the processors in the Mac Pro that Apple

00:06:13   could put in the iMac if it wanted to so maybe if they make an iMac Pro instead of having

00:06:18   a Xeon in there they could have one of these in between EZion things which would be kind

00:06:24   of cruddy because I really want ECC RAM, so if I'm gonna pay for an iMac Pro. But anyway,

00:06:29   I'll buy whatever they put out because what the hell choice do I have?

00:06:32   - Yeah, sorry, I'm gonna talk to Sean during follow-up. Yeah, this is the X99 series that

00:06:38   people keep telling us about, and I honestly don't know much about it. I had it in the

00:06:41   back of my mind and just had forgotten about it, but it seems like if you're gonna go to

00:06:47   the trouble of having a very expensive processor that puts out a lot of heat and needs a big

00:06:52   socket and everything else, why not just use Xeons at that point? I bet the engineering

00:06:58   constraints and cost constraints and everything else around using these is probably not that

00:07:04   different from just using Xeons in the first place, which is probably why Apple doesn't

00:07:07   just put one of these in an iMac.

00:07:10   - Jason Breckenridge writes in to say more about the Mac Pro. The Mac Pro Delay is likely

00:07:16   due to wait for AMD to produce something that they can leverage to get Intel Xeon prices

00:07:20   down. That seems bold to me. But anyway, he continues, "Margins are everything in Tim Cook's

00:07:26   Apple." Not sure how you can know that, but I'll continue, especially for low volume products.

00:07:31   Maybe, I don't know, what do you guys think? I put this in here for, not to address it directly,

00:07:36   but just for the larger issue, because it's interesting to me that the three of us on this

00:07:43   show seem to all come to a sort of, I don't know, I'm going to say unspoken agreement,

00:07:49   but chances are we spoke about it because we talk about the Mac Pro a lot, agreement that there is

00:07:53   no new Mac Pro coming. And yet, when I see people, like when listeners write in or tweet or whatever,

00:08:00   there is still a contention out there that is on a different page than we are, that they believe

00:08:05   that there is a delay, like the Mac, that there is a Mac Pro delay, that a new Mac Pro is coming.

00:08:11   And maybe I'm wrong, but do we all basically agree, the three of us, like obviously we don't

00:08:15   know we're just guessing right but do we all kind of agree there is no new mac pro coming in in the

00:08:22   terms that we understand it to be basically like a thing that you buy from apple that is their

00:08:26   fastest computer that doesn't have a screen attached to it i don't know you're the you're

00:08:33   the one you're the one holed out i mean i think marco agrees right yeah pretty much i'm i've been

00:08:39   on the page for a while they're just like there is no new mac pro coming and all i'm thinking of is

00:08:43   like you know in the way that we understand it i'm i'm 100 pinning my hopes on an iMac pro at this

00:08:49   point but the Mac Pro like so many people write in to talk about what do we think the next Mac Pro is

00:08:53   going to be and what might be delaying the next Mac Pro and i feel like writing back saying

00:08:56   i i've lost my faith like i what what new Mac Pro what are you even talking about it's there is no

00:09:03   new Mac Pro there will never will be a new Mac Pro except for something different than in terms of

00:09:09   Again, when I say it, I'm talking about a box that you buy

00:09:13   that doesn't have a monitor built into it from Apple

00:09:14   that is their fastest computer.

00:09:16   I think that's gone.

00:09:17   - Yeah, I mean, like, all right,

00:09:19   like I've been using this iMac since 2014

00:09:22   because it just fit my overall desires better.

00:09:26   Like I really wanted Retina.

00:09:28   Like I desperately wanted desktop Retina

00:09:30   and I thought for years that it was further away.

00:09:34   And so, and then when they released the 5K iMac,

00:09:37   it blew my mind and it was so good,

00:09:40   and it still is so good.

00:09:42   You know, I decided then, like okay,

00:09:44   I will trade some processing power

00:09:46   and I will trade the freedom of this external cylinder

00:09:49   or tower and having it separate from my monitor.

00:09:51   I'll trade that for this awesome screen experience.

00:09:53   And at the time, there really was no great way

00:09:56   to get 5K externally.

00:09:58   Now, well, maybe you can argue that the LG

00:10:02   still sucks so badly that maybe there still isn't

00:10:06   when you get 5K externally.

00:10:08   - That is what broke me, if you recall.

00:10:10   That was the end.

00:10:11   I was like, I now accept, I accept that Apple.

00:10:14   You're telling me in no uncertain terms, give up.

00:10:18   - Yeah, maybe, I don't know.

00:10:19   Anyway, so the problem is like,

00:10:22   I hear from various tipsters and rumors

00:10:26   and birdies and everything else,

00:10:28   I hear a different thing like every month.

00:10:29   Every month I hear, oh, the Mac Pro's really dead this time.

00:10:32   Or, oh no, it's not dead yet, it's coming,

00:10:34   you know, they're starting up a new thing.

00:10:36   - Yeah, but every time I hear that, like I think,

00:10:38   does what I'm hearing fit into the idea of an iMac Pro?

00:10:41   And every time I go, that totally could be an iMac Pro.

00:10:44   - All I want is for them to address high-end needs,

00:10:48   and for the current iMac series as we know it

00:10:51   to not be the highest they ever go,

00:10:54   because it is very limited in, you know,

00:10:56   limiting itself to the primarily four-core desktop line

00:10:59   and not having desktop-class high-powered GPU support

00:11:04   and desktop class high powered CPU support,

00:11:07   and workstation class I should say CPU support.

00:11:10   You know, there's a huge ceiling

00:11:12   above the current iMac series.

00:11:15   And it isn't just about getting a higher clock speed

00:11:18   on single core, it's about like,

00:11:20   if you want, if you need multi-core performance,

00:11:22   which lots of things use these days,

00:11:24   it isn't a matter of just wait 'til next year's iMac

00:11:29   and the four core line will be good enough

00:11:32   that a Mac Pro won't be necessary.

00:11:33   It's literally like the iMac grows like

00:11:36   five or 10% performance a year,

00:11:39   and a Mac Pro with more cores could have like,

00:11:42   it could have like six times the performance.

00:11:44   Like that's the difference we're talking about here.

00:11:46   It's not, it isn't something that we can just wait

00:11:49   a couple years and the need goes away,

00:11:51   because a couple years down the road,

00:11:53   the multi-core high-power workstation chips

00:11:55   have gotten better too.

00:11:57   So having a gap, like there's a big gap between

00:12:02   what the iMac can do and what a computer

00:12:05   that has a much higher power and heat budget

00:12:09   and money budget can do.

00:12:11   And that used to be the Mac Pro and now it's kind of gone

00:12:15   and that huge gap is just being unserved.

00:12:18   And the people who need that huge gap are going to Windows

00:12:21   and Hackintoshes and other crap.

00:12:23   Like that's what I hope Apple addresses.

00:12:26   Whether it has a screen built into it or not,

00:12:30   I would prefer if it didn't,

00:12:32   just for additional flexibility,

00:12:34   but I don't really,

00:12:35   I'm not gonna be massively disappointed

00:12:37   if they give me a new high-end 16-core Xeon workstation

00:12:42   that happens to have a 5K screen in front of it,

00:12:44   which is, by the way, the best screen I've ever seen.

00:12:46   - Yeah, I'm actually, like,

00:12:47   now that I know there's no third-party monitor,

00:12:49   that's what makes the iMac Pro so much more palatable to me,

00:12:52   'cause I will still have an Apple monitor,

00:12:54   and that's what I want, and so,

00:12:55   now I'm just pinning my hopes on the insides of that.

00:12:59   Mac Pro being all that they can be.

00:13:02   - All right, you two, you have had your talking privileges

00:13:04   revoked for the remainder of follow-up.

00:13:06   I was trying to get through this quickly,

00:13:08   and then I said those two cursed goddamn words, Mac Pro,

00:13:12   and then everything took a turn, as it always does.

00:13:15   Ugh, anyway.

00:13:18   - I mean, in our defense, I'm pretty sure you started it.

00:13:21   - Well, I didn't put this in the show notes,

00:13:24   but I was dutifully reading-- - Neither did I.

00:13:26   - I was dutifully reading Jon's show notes

00:13:29   here's where we ended up. So anyway, we'll move on to talk about how Americans are cheap. So Jake

00:13:34   writes in to say, "I wanted to tell you all what I've seen with a family member that has been in

00:13:40   education for almost 30 years." And this person's family member works for a 12,000 student school

00:13:46   district in America. In this district, there are several schools that need repairs or renovation

00:13:50   to keep students safe. Over the last two years, the district has presented a referendum which

00:13:55   which goes to a public vote, to the public, which gets voted down, a secondary referendum

00:14:00   for a lesser amount of money, which is also voted down, and now there's a third referendum

00:14:04   on the table. The current referendum has a lot of opposition at this time, and according

00:14:09   to Jake, they don't play nice. So Jake summarizes, "People are really not fond of taxes being

00:14:14   raised to support education." I've seen this every day for the last decade or two of my

00:14:19   my life, even when kids' safety is on the line, there is still opposition. It's really

00:14:25   sad. And this is an exact retelling of my childhood in an—now, how do I say this?

00:14:33   Because however I pronounced it, apparently everyone was very, very upset with me.

00:14:37   You're just putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable. That's all that's happening

00:14:41   there.

00:14:42   Right. What flight attendant movie was that? I never actually saw it, but that preview

00:14:45   that was on the commercials just made me laugh.

00:14:46   It is very popular. I've heard it back in middle school, so I don't know what the original origin is.

00:14:51   Anyway, affluent is what you're trying to say.

00:14:54   Thank you.

00:14:54   Oh, you said affluent?

00:14:55   Yes, apparently. There are a lot of people who are very perturbed.

00:14:58   It's probably an alternate pronunciation because everything is.

00:15:01   I bet you're right.

00:15:02   You always have that defense. You can look it up.

00:15:04   I'm sure that's true, but whatever. So affluent? Is that correct?

00:15:08   Yep.

00:15:09   Anyway, it doesn't matter. Whatever. I lived in an area that had a lot of rich people in it.

00:15:13   There we go.

00:15:14   So the point is, this was the exact same behavior that I saw at my school district, which we

00:15:20   went over last episode.

00:15:21   We had several other people write in to say very, very similar things that were equally

00:15:25   depressing and this was just a really great summary of how Americans are cheap and I hate

00:15:31   all of us.

00:15:32   So I just thought I'd share that little anecdote.

00:15:35   Speaking of things that we won't talk long about at all, I'm quite sure, Twitterific

00:15:39   for Mac. The Kickstarter made it and the stretch goal of $100,000 to get basic things like direct

00:15:46   messaging support also made it, which is super exciting. So congratulations, John Siracusa.

00:15:52   This moment is yours. Yes, this is a victory lap for the project and for all of the listeners to

00:15:56   this show who I'm sure heard my plea and pledged support. And it amazes me like I was just the goal

00:16:03   I set for everybody says ignore the fact that the goal is 75 grand. The stretch goal is 100 grand.

00:16:08   We need to get that because that's where like direct messages come in and as much as I love to where I forget really don't want

00:16:12   To use a Mac Twitter client doesn't support direct messages. So we did it

00:16:15   108,000 is the total we passed 100k

00:16:18   As Marco was pointing out now

00:16:21   I have to pay the money that I pledge towards it and a lot of people I know

00:16:24   On Twitter told me that not only did they pledge because they heard

00:16:28   My encouragement to do so but they also up to their pledges when they saw that it wasn't close to its goal or whatever

00:16:34   So thank you to everybody who did that. I'm sure this will turn out great

00:16:39   The one the one bad thing for me is that of course I can't or I may not be able to run this

00:16:44   Project if it's Sierra only until and unless I get a new Mac that runs

00:16:48   I mean, it's not supposed to be done until

00:16:51   This really is gonna be the most expensive Twitter client ever for you. Yeah

00:16:56   Anyway, but it's gonna be a few hundred bucks for Twitter and a very sweet button few thousand bucks for a new Mac

00:17:03   I'm also lobbying them through certain channels to perhaps try to support back to El Cap

00:17:07   But I don't know if that will happen

00:17:08   But either way I want a new Mac that runs Sierra and I want to be able to run this thing and it's not done

00:17:12   Yet so fingers crossed everybody, but thanks to everybody who helped. This is awesome

00:17:15   Congratulations John Sira Kusa. I'm very very very excited for you

00:17:20   I know this was this was a big deal for you could just use tweet bot, but that's cool

00:17:24   Siri has multi language support several people wrote in with regard to our ladies in the cylinder conversation last episode

00:17:32   to remind us that, and it is, we needed a reminder, that, that, what is the, the, the

00:17:40   Amazon, I'm stumbling so hard to say her name. Yes, the echoes lady, I didn't want to say

00:17:47   the A-L-E-X-A word. The echoes lady does not have a lot of multi-language support, whereas

00:17:55   the Apple lady does have considerable by comparison multi-language support. And that's a big deal

00:18:01   for anyone who doesn't speak English, and obviously we tend to be more myopic than

00:18:06   we intend when it comes to these sorts of things. But for people outside of the

00:18:10   United States, Britain, etc., Australia too, before we get people emailing us about

00:18:15   that, people outside those areas, you know, the only choice they really have is

00:18:21   Siri, and that's kind of a big bummer. So anyway, it's worth considering, and we

00:18:26   didn't really give any thought to that last episode.

00:18:28   What is, wasn't, uh, somebody wrote in before we get onto the, the, the, well actually for this, um,

00:18:34   someone wrote in there in, in a foreign country and they said that they had to speak to whatever

00:18:40   thing they were speaking to in their native language, but they had to pronounce things the way

00:18:45   an English speaker, English speaker would try to say the words in their language in order to be

00:18:50   understood, which I thought was interesting that like, even though it purports to understand your

00:18:54   language if you speak sort of colloquially and just like casually as

00:18:59   you would it doesn't work as well if you think like how would an American trying

00:19:03   to speak my language say this and say it that way then then the cylinder picks up

00:19:06   which I thought was funny I mean it's work time works the same way here like

00:19:09   you've kind of think like how would somebody in California say this like the

00:19:13   way I say it it never works right you just got to add in a groovy and you know

00:19:17   and whatever the other lingo is right can you get me a Jaguar with an

00:19:20   an automatic transmission.

00:19:22   (laughing)

00:19:23   - Wow.

00:19:24   - That'll work perfectly.

00:19:25   - Don't forget the passive aggression.

00:19:25   No, I mean, so I think what bugs me about

00:19:29   a lot of the times I see this pointed out

00:19:31   is when it's used as a defense for areas

00:19:35   in which Siri is not doing so well

00:19:37   or is stupider than it should be.

00:19:38   So to me, these should be carefully considered

00:19:42   as separate factors.

00:19:44   Yes, Siri is better at international

00:19:48   and multi-language support.

00:19:49   Amazon sucks internationally.

00:19:51   They have terrible coverage outside the US

00:19:54   for all of their services.

00:19:56   And the Echo's voice service is no exception to that.

00:20:00   But what Amazon's even better at is in the

00:20:03   like one language that they support well,

00:20:07   it simply works more reliably.

00:20:10   And I know that there are areas in which Siri is better

00:20:13   and that's fine.

00:20:15   There's areas in which Amazon's better.

00:20:17   but these are separate discussions.

00:20:19   And I don't think it's a valid excuse for Apple

00:20:23   or for Apple fans and commentators to use.

00:20:27   Whenever anybody points out that Siri does something

00:20:30   less well than it should,

00:20:32   or that Amazon does something really well,

00:20:34   it is not a valid excuse to say,

00:20:35   "Well, Siri supports 75 different languages."

00:20:39   It's like, well, okay, it does.

00:20:41   The sky is also blue.

00:20:42   These are separate facts.

00:20:43   These are separate discussions, right?

00:20:46   So that's, I see this a lot in a way that bothers me,

00:20:48   but that is an attribute that should be commended.

00:20:52   It is great that Siri supports all the different languages,

00:20:56   and if you speak one of those languages,

00:20:57   that's a huge factor for you,

00:20:59   in the same way that other factors of these products

00:21:01   might influence other people's decisions.

00:21:03   I would just be careful how we throw that around,

00:21:06   because so often it's used in this kind of invalid defense.

00:21:10   - Yeah, fair enough.

00:21:11   All right, so I have a very quick question

00:21:15   about the Apple Watch, which is kind of a call to listeners

00:21:18   to tweet at me and me alone.

00:21:21   And then I'd like to go to Marco Waffling.

00:21:24   I am gonna regret this, but I'm curious.

00:21:26   And then Marco has a tale of waffling,

00:21:28   which is a lot less delicious than it sounds.

00:21:30   - You have a brief tale of waffling, right Marco?

00:21:32   - Yeah, very brief.

00:21:33   - Well, I do, I wasn't aware you guys knew about it.

00:21:36   - Somebody put in the show notes.

00:21:37   - We know everything, we're watching, always watching.

00:21:39   Cool, all right.

00:21:41   Anyway, I wanted to ask the audience,

00:21:46   and you can tweet at me and me alone,

00:21:47   you don't need to bother Marco and John.

00:21:49   Do you, if you have--

00:21:50   - I can't believe you're doing this, by the way.

00:21:52   - Yeah, I know.

00:21:53   If you have a, what are we calling this,

00:21:56   a Series Zero, an original Apple Watch,

00:21:59   do you find that the battery is starting

00:22:01   to get a little long in the tooth

00:22:02   and it's starting to wear out a little more quickly

00:22:04   than it used to?

00:22:06   Because I took delivery of my Apple Watch in early May,

00:22:10   And the last couple days it has been nice enough out that I can go for my afternoon,

00:22:14   or really evening, walk with Declan.

00:22:16   And I'll do a walking exercise on my Apple Watch.

00:22:19   And as soon as I've started doing that in the last few days, at unreasonably early hours,

00:22:25   my Apple Watch is going from, "Oh, I'm fine, everything, I'm asleep."

00:22:30   And power reserve mode is on, and I basically don't have a watch at all anymore.

00:22:35   And this only started when I started doing these exercises in the, well, for loose definitions

00:22:39   of exercise, but anyway, exercises in the evening and tracking these like 15 to 30 minute

00:22:44   walks.

00:22:45   And I'm curious, those who listen, if you have, only if you have a Series 0 original

00:22:51   Apple Watch, do you also find that you're having battery woes?

00:22:54   Let @CaseyList know, I'm curious to hear.

00:22:57   That's all for now.

00:22:58   You should restore your phone.

00:22:59   I have a Series 0 watch and my battery is awesome as it sits there on its charging thing

00:23:03   on top of my dresser.

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00:25:17   (upbeat music)

00:25:20   - So tell me about your waffling.

00:25:22   - I'm gonna say this is by my count

00:25:26   your third Mac laptop order

00:25:28   since the new Mac laptops are released.

00:25:30   - Again?

00:25:31   - Oh my God, Marco.

00:25:33   - Here's what happened.

00:25:35   - Oh, here we go.

00:25:35   Yeah, you had to do it.

00:25:37   Why did you have to do it?

00:25:38   - Here's what happened.

00:25:39   All right, I'll try to be brief

00:25:40   'cause we have all this other stuff to talk about.

00:25:43   I recently came back from a trip.

00:25:44   On the way home, I was supposed to have downloaded

00:25:49   a TV show for Tiff and I to watch on the plane.

00:25:53   And last minute at the airport,

00:25:55   I realized, at the departure airport,

00:25:58   I realized I had not done it over the hotel wifi overnight

00:26:01   like I had planned, and I had to very quickly download

00:26:03   episodes of a TV show.

00:26:05   And of course, nothing was available in any legal fashion,

00:26:08   so I was going to ship them to myself on a truck.

00:26:13   And there are numerous ways to do this on airport WiFi,

00:26:18   none of which are very good.

00:26:20   And the only way I found for this show

00:26:23   that I was supposed to have downloaded, but didn't download,

00:26:26   the only way that I could find it is a certain kind

00:26:30   truck that, let's say it forms a torrential downpour of data pieces into a TV show. I

00:26:40   knew like, you know, if I could just use a group of newspaper delivery trucks, that would

00:26:46   be better. But the torrential downpour of trucks was the only thing I could get to work

00:26:51   in a reliable fashion from the airport wifi that I was on. And the plane was taking off

00:26:57   in like a half hour, and I just had to get something quickly.

00:27:01   So I installed a type of torrential downpour truck

00:27:06   that I had trusted in the past, even though I knew that,

00:27:09   you know, I heard they kinda got shady

00:27:12   with bundling smaller satellite trucks with it.

00:27:15   - Did it install a Yahoo search toolbar in your browser?

00:27:18   (laughing)

00:27:18   Did it install Java?

00:27:19   - It did set my homepage to Yahoo in all of my browsers.

00:27:23   (laughing)

00:27:24   - Oh my God. - Yes, that's the stuff.

00:27:25   And on my home Mac, I have an older version of this truck

00:27:29   that has no, I downloaded it years ago,

00:27:31   it has no problems.

00:27:33   But on the new version that I could get off the website

00:27:36   quickly, it did a bunch of weird stuff that I don't trust.

00:27:40   And so because of this, I now consider my 15 inch

00:27:44   Touch Bar MacBook Pro compromised,

00:27:47   and I need to format it and reinstall, basically,

00:27:51   for my own sanity.

00:27:53   Do you guys remember what made Mike Hurley quit his job?

00:27:57   - Oh God, it was him having to buy a new pair of shoelaces.

00:28:01   And how does that justify you getting a new damn computer?

00:28:05   - I was just gonna say to remind everybody

00:28:06   the story about him forgetting to download a TV show

00:28:09   and trying to do it in the airport.

00:28:10   It's going to lead to him buying a new computer,

00:28:12   just so everyone's on the same page here.

00:28:14   - All right, so basically, the gist of it,

00:28:17   if I can summarize Mike Hurley's story

00:28:18   about what made him finally quit his job

00:28:20   and become a professional podcasters,

00:28:22   is that he was going to his office job

00:28:25   where he had to dress up,

00:28:26   and he broke the shoelace on his shoe,

00:28:29   and he was thinking about quitting for a while,

00:28:31   and that finally pushed him over the edge

00:28:32   because he's like, you know,

00:28:33   I don't want to buy a new pair of shoelaces for these shoes

00:28:38   because it was kind of like reinforcing and reinvesting

00:28:42   in the world he was not happy with and trying to leave.

00:28:46   So he decided to just stop at that point.

00:28:49   I'm sorry if I butchered that.

00:28:50   And Casey, do you remember offhand what episode of Analog

00:28:52   people should listen to?

00:28:53   - No, I don't, but I'll have it in the show notes.

00:28:56   I don't remember which episode it is,

00:28:57   but we go into detail about this.

00:28:59   And it is one of the better episodes of Analog,

00:29:01   if I do say so myself, so it's worth listening to.

00:29:03   - Okay, so, when faced with the need to reformat

00:29:08   my 15-inch Touch Bar MacBook Pro at the end of this trip,

00:29:12   probably the third or fourth trip I've taken it on,

00:29:15   I was already not loving this computer on this trip.

00:29:20   In so many things about it that I, when I bought it,

00:29:24   I was like, you know, I don't love this,

00:29:26   but I'll get used to it maybe.

00:29:27   And some of those things I've gotten used to

00:29:29   decently enough, some of those things I haven't.

00:29:32   I just have no motivation to fix this computer,

00:29:36   even though it's just software,

00:29:37   I just have to reinstall the OS,

00:29:38   which I have to do, even if I get a new one,

00:29:40   I will then start on a fresh one,

00:29:41   and then I'll have to put everything back on that one.

00:29:44   I don't want to, this is my shoelace,

00:29:47   and I don't want to fix this laptop

00:29:50   because I just don't like it.

00:29:51   And I'm finally admitting to myself,

00:29:53   you know what, the 15-inch Touch Bar MacBook Pro,

00:29:56   it's not a bad computer, it's just really designed

00:29:59   with different priorities and different needs

00:30:01   than what my needs and priorities actually are.

00:30:04   And I thought I would get past it,

00:30:05   and I thought I'd get used to it,

00:30:06   and I thought certain things would stick better

00:30:08   than they have, like honestly,

00:30:10   the Touch Bar doesn't work for me.

00:30:12   It may be down the road, it will, but right now it doesn't.

00:30:15   And it causes a lot of problems,

00:30:17   I was like accidentally brushing against it

00:30:18   and other issues, bugs, things like that.

00:30:21   So anyway, so I thought, you know what?

00:30:23   I can't do this anymore.

00:30:24   I'm going to switch to a computer that I actually like.

00:30:28   And my original plan was I'm going to wait

00:30:32   for the next update to the MacBook One

00:30:35   and give that a solid try again

00:30:36   because when I first got the first one

00:30:39   and really hated it, part of the reason I hated it

00:30:41   was the keyboard, but well now they all have that keyboard.

00:30:44   And so I was like, well, I'm forcibly getting used

00:30:47   to that keyboard.

00:30:48   So it's like, all right, well that is kind of now

00:30:51   an equal between them, almost.

00:30:52   I mean, the one on the MacBook One currently

00:30:55   has less feedback.

00:30:56   It is still the same low travel, but it has less feedback

00:30:59   than the ones that are on the new 2016 MacBook Pros.

00:31:03   I'm used to that one now on the MacBook Pros.

00:31:05   I still don't like it, but I'm used to it.

00:31:07   So I can tolerate that, and I was assuming

00:31:09   that the next update to the MacBook One

00:31:11   would get that keyboard.

00:31:13   Also, the original MacBook One,

00:31:14   I mean, all the MacBook Ones are very slow,

00:31:17   but in the 2016 update, was it,

00:31:19   they dramatically increased the speed of the SSD,

00:31:24   which dramatically increases the performance

00:31:27   of lots of things in the system.

00:31:28   And so the gist of what owners have reported, basically,

00:31:31   is that the second version of the MacBook One,

00:31:34   which is the one that's been on for about a year now,

00:31:36   is significantly faster than the first version was.

00:31:39   Oh, also, thanks, Tipster, the GPU is also a lot faster.

00:31:43   which also helps.

00:31:44   So, I thought, you know, let me just wait for that,

00:31:47   and then I'll make a decision.

00:31:49   Well, I'm about to go on a trip in like a couple of weeks

00:31:53   to Ireland to the OOL conference,

00:31:55   and like our other friends, I will pimp the OOL conference,

00:31:58   not because they've asked me to,

00:31:59   not because I feel obligated to,

00:32:01   but because if you are anywhere near Ireland

00:32:03   or can get to Ireland in a couple of weeks,

00:32:05   you should go to the OOL conference, it's amazing.

00:32:07   So go to the OOL conference, everybody.

00:32:09   U-L-L dot I-E is OOL.

00:32:11   Anyway, I'm going to Ireland.

00:32:12   This is the perfect kind of trip where I want to have a laptop with me, but I don't really

00:32:17   get a lot of work done on trips anymore.

00:32:19   I try, I always try, and I just, I don't.

00:32:22   You know, it's very rare that I actually get a lot of work done.

00:32:24   Since the 15-inch was not for me, I was thinking, you know what, this would be a great time

00:32:28   to have a new, smaller laptop to try, to use, to enjoy, and since the 15-inch is not working

00:32:35   for me for lots of reasons, and one of the main reasons is the touch bar that really

00:32:38   is not working for me, I think my choices were basically the MacBook One or the MacBook

00:32:42   or an old MacBook Pro, you know,

00:32:45   like I can get the old 13, and I already have my old 15,

00:32:48   so I took out the old 15, figured I'd boot that up

00:32:50   for a little bit, use that for a couple days,

00:32:51   see how that goes.

00:32:53   And it's fine, but I'm ruined now for the weight difference

00:32:57   on the new one.

00:32:59   Even though going from the old to the new 15

00:33:02   is only a half pound savings,

00:33:03   it went from like 4.5 to 4.0, that's enough to ruin me.

00:33:08   So now I pick up the old one and it feels really old.

00:33:11   Then the event, or the announcements rather,

00:33:15   the other day, yesterday?

00:33:16   The other day came out.

00:33:18   And I thought, Apple is sure to update the MacBook One,

00:33:22   so let me wait for this announcement,

00:33:23   and then I will probably just order a MacBook One,

00:33:26   which with the new, hopefully with the new keyboard,

00:33:28   and with the new, maybe a faster thunder,

00:33:31   maybe Thunderbolt instead of just USB-C or whatever else.

00:33:33   Okay.

00:33:34   - Yep, I was gonna do the same thing for the record.

00:33:36   I had every intention of buying myself

00:33:39   a MacBook adorable slash MacBook one

00:33:41   slash officially called MacBook.

00:33:43   - The 12 inch MacBook.

00:33:45   - Right, I was planning to buy one yesterday,

00:33:47   I was locked and loaded, ready to go,

00:33:48   and then not so much.

00:33:50   So what did you do?

00:33:51   See, I know how to not spend money,

00:33:54   but if there's anything you know how to do,

00:33:58   not spending money is not on that list.

00:33:59   You do not know how to not spend money.

00:34:02   - All I can do is rationalize spending a little bit

00:34:04   less money than I was going to spend anyway.

00:34:06   But anyway, the day came and went,

00:34:09   They had their big barrage of press releases,

00:34:10   which you look at too, don't worry,

00:34:11   everyone will get to that.

00:34:12   And they didn't release basically anything I wanted,

00:34:15   but they didn't release the MacBook One.

00:34:19   So I decided, you know what, let me go to the Apple Store.

00:34:21   Now that everything's in stock,

00:34:23   I'll spend some real time with the MacBook Escape

00:34:26   and the MacBook One side by side.

00:34:28   And to just see like, should I just wait for an escape,

00:34:31   or should I just buy an escape now,

00:34:34   or should I wait for the MacBook One update

00:34:36   that might happen in a couple of weeks

00:34:39   or it might happen in six months or it might never happen.

00:34:43   We have no idea, right?

00:34:45   This is modern Apple, who knows when things will come out.

00:34:47   There's no relation anymore to like Intel schedules.

00:34:50   So it could come out any time or never.

00:34:53   So anyway, so I went to the store,

00:34:56   side by side, MacBook escape to MacBook One.

00:34:59   The weight difference between them is noticeable.

00:35:01   It's two pounds versus three pounds.

00:35:02   So it's a noticeable weight difference.

00:35:04   It's a noticeable size difference.

00:35:06   But the MacBook Escape is the same approximate size

00:35:09   and weight as the 13 inch MacBook Air has always been.

00:35:12   It feels great, it's small, and critically,

00:35:17   it is basically a retina MacBook Air in its internals,

00:35:20   and so it has amazing battery life,

00:35:22   the best battery life in the whole lineup.

00:35:24   And one of my problems with the 15 inch

00:35:26   is that the battery life is just not that great.

00:35:29   It's not horrible, but it's not great,

00:35:31   and it varies tremendously with what you're doing

00:35:34   because it has that high powered GPU

00:35:36   and the nice big four core CPU and everything else.

00:35:38   So 15 inch varies a lot and isn't even great to begin with.

00:35:42   The MacBook Escape has, and by the way,

00:35:44   I should clarify my stupid name for that,

00:35:46   that's the 13 inch MacBook Pro 2016

00:35:49   with two Thunderbolt ports,

00:35:51   also known as the non-touch bar 13 inch MacBook Pro.

00:35:54   All these wonderful, see, my name is better than Apple's.

00:35:57   Okay, so anyway, the MacBook Escape.

00:35:59   It is not as small and light as I would love it to be,

00:36:02   but it's pretty small and light.

00:36:04   The MacBook One, now again, this is the now year old version

00:36:07   so maybe this will change in the new one.

00:36:10   But the keyboard difference side by side

00:36:13   is not a big difference, but it is noticeable.

00:36:17   And the MacBook One keyboard is worse by a noticeable amount.

00:36:22   The ergonomic difference is more noticeable

00:36:25   than I would have guessed.

00:36:26   The MacBook One feels great when you're holding it.

00:36:28   When you pick it up, when you're carrying it around,

00:36:31   it feels great.

00:36:32   I don't care for how you have to open the lid,

00:36:35   basically with two hands,

00:36:37   because it's so thin and so small

00:36:39   that you can't really wedge your thumb under

00:36:43   the little lip area and push down on what's below it

00:36:45   like you can with the bigger ones.

00:36:47   - But you don't have to.

00:36:47   That's Apple's whole big thing.

00:36:48   You can do it with one hand and the base stays down.

00:36:51   - Yeah, that, mm.

00:36:52   - It does, it really does.

00:36:53   I try it all the time on the Apple Store

00:36:54   and I'm amazed at how often, how it works.

00:36:56   I actually try, you're right that it's hard

00:36:58   to get your finger under it,

00:36:59   but if you let go of the notion

00:37:01   and you actually need to hold the bass down

00:37:03   and you can manage to get your little finger

00:37:04   under the lip, I swear to you

00:37:06   that the bass will stay on the table.

00:37:08   - Oh, I didn't realize that.

00:37:09   Okay, anyway, so it didn't feel as good.

00:37:13   It felt like a little bit flimsy to do that.

00:37:14   It's just like, it's not a huge deal,

00:37:16   but when you compare 'em side by side,

00:37:18   it's an obvious difference.

00:37:19   Also, when I had the MacBook Escape for a day and a half,

00:37:23   when it first came, I mean, sorry, the MacBook One,

00:37:25   for a day and a half when it first came out,

00:37:27   one problem I had with it was that actually on my lap,

00:37:30   it was too narrow and it would sit too low on my legs

00:37:33   as a result, it wouldn't quite span across my leg gap

00:37:36   quite well enough and I actually found it

00:37:39   not that pleasant to use on my lap.

00:37:42   It would be great on an airplane tray table

00:37:44   and it'd be totally suitable on a desk and anything else

00:37:47   but on my lap I actually found it was actually

00:37:50   not quite wide enough to really be comfortable there.

00:37:53   And the biggest difference to me is that

00:37:56   the MacBook One's trackpad is truly awful.

00:38:00   It is horrendous how different,

00:38:03   like when you feel them side by side,

00:38:05   even on the same settings,

00:38:06   on the same like force touch firmness level or whatever,

00:38:10   the difference in the click feel and the responsiveness

00:38:13   between the MacBook One and the MacBook Escape

00:38:15   is massive on the trackpad.

00:38:17   It's a huge difference.

00:38:19   I basically decided then that, you know,

00:38:21   I actually don't think I want a MacBook One, again,

00:38:25   even if it gets updated.

00:38:27   So I played with the escape a little bit longer,

00:38:30   played with the one a little bit longer,

00:38:31   firmed up my decision, went home,

00:38:33   and ordered a maxed out MacBook escape.

00:38:35   Except for I didn't get the terabyte, I got the 512.

00:38:38   - Still time for you to cancel that order, again.

00:38:40   - I already canceled the same order once, six months ago.

00:38:43   - I know, that's what I'm saying.

00:38:44   I thought, "Are we gonna make it this time?

00:38:45   "Is it gonna make it?"

00:38:47   - I'll see how it goes, and ask me again,

00:38:49   you know, in a couple of weeks.

00:38:52   - What are you doing with your old one?

00:38:54   Once I'm sure that I'm going to keep the escape,

00:38:57   I'll sell the 15, unless Casey wants it,

00:38:59   I can sell it to you.

00:39:01   - So you were like the proverbial little old lady

00:39:04   who only drove to church on Sunday.

00:39:06   If you want a lightly used laptop for a reasonable price,

00:39:10   just wait for Marco to get bored of it.

00:39:11   - Exactly.

00:39:12   - Oh, goodness.

00:39:13   I don't even know what to do with you.

00:39:16   Though I'm most disappointed that you didn't get

00:39:18   a MacBook One, because I would have bought that off of you

00:39:20   in two weeks or two weeks of the day

00:39:23   when you decide that you don't want this one,

00:39:25   but as it turns out, that's not what you bought.

00:39:26   - Well now you can have the complete opposite,

00:39:28   you can have the 15 inch.

00:39:29   - No, I don't want a 15 inch.

00:39:31   - Neither do I. - Like the Touch Bar

00:39:31   does interest me, but I don't want that.

00:39:33   Like I'm not saying that it's bad, I'm not saying,

00:39:35   it's just, today, with my needs today, I don't want it,

00:39:39   because what I really want is a new 15 inch

00:39:41   with Touch Bar for work, but I'm not gonna get

00:39:44   another computer for work for like two or three years, so.

00:39:47   Alas, anyway.

00:39:48   - Like what, the reason I got the 15 to begin with

00:39:51   was that I had originally ordered

00:39:53   this exact same MacBook escape configuration

00:39:56   that I just reordered.

00:39:57   On day one I ordered that,

00:39:58   and because it was day one

00:39:59   there was like a two week delay or something

00:40:01   'cause they were all backed up.

00:40:02   And in the meantime I convinced myself,

00:40:05   you know, whatever, I think it's like $2,200,

00:40:07   like $2,200 for effectively a souped up MacBook Air

00:40:11   is kind of a lot,

00:40:13   and I didn't feel good about the value of that.

00:40:14   And the 15 inch, for bang for the buck,

00:40:18   the 15 inch is a way better buy

00:40:20   than any of the other laptops.

00:40:22   And so I kind of rationaled myself into a 15 inch.

00:40:25   And I also thought the Touch Bar would be a bigger deal,

00:40:27   and I should have some experience with it.

00:40:29   And it turns out that in an effort to get the best value

00:40:34   for my money, I got a computer that was actually

00:40:37   not the right computer for me.

00:40:39   So there's a lesson there somewhere, I don't know.

00:40:41   And the Touch Bar ended up not really sticking for me.

00:40:44   So there we go.

00:40:46   - All right, 45 minutes into our recording,

00:40:48   we can finally be done with follow up.

00:40:50   - Told you, Jon, it was gonna be a quick one.

00:40:51   - That was a topic, come on.

00:40:53   - Somebody spent a while on a particular topic,

00:40:56   but I'm not gonna say who.

00:40:58   - Casey.

00:40:59   - Oh yeah, totally me.

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00:43:05   - I wanted to cover something before we go too big

00:43:11   into the last 48 hours worth of announcements.

00:43:15   There was a little bit of talk, but not a lot, about the Apple shareholder diversity

00:43:21   proposal.

00:43:22   And this always struck me as a little weird, and how Apple's handling it is a little weird.

00:43:29   But if you recall, for the last couple of shareholder meetings, maybe even several now,

00:43:34   there's been some sort of, and I don't know the appropriate terminology, but there's been

00:43:39   a thing that they had to vote on that shareholders had petitioned Apple for, where the general

00:43:46   premise of this particular thing they're voting on is to adopt an accelerated recruitment

00:43:51   policy to increase the diversity of senior management and its board of directors.

00:43:55   That's actually coming off a Verge article put in the show notes.

00:43:58   And this has been voted down yet again.

00:44:01   And I have mixed feelings about this, which I probably shouldn't, because on the one side

00:44:08   I feel like, well, they have an executive team that everyone but Marco thinks is working

00:44:12   okay.

00:44:14   It seems a little silly to just throw one or more of them out for the sake of diversity,

00:44:20   but on the other side of the coin, diversity is a good thing.

00:44:25   I think that having a more diverse executive team might help get rid of some of these issues

00:44:30   that we've seen.

00:44:31   I don't know which one specifically, but just a different thing—I was going to say outside

00:44:35   the box thinking, but it's not even outside the box thinking. Just different thinking could be

00:44:39   helpful, which to Marco's credit is I think a lot of the point that you were trying to make last

00:44:42   week. I'm disappointed by this. Like, I'm not entirely surprised that this is the way the

00:44:48   vote came, and I know that Apple was pushing pretty hard for shareholders to say no to this.

00:44:56   And so I am disappointed. I'm not surprised, but I'm disappointed. And I kind of wish that Apple

00:45:02   would say something more directly about their lack of diversity, really across the company,

00:45:10   but particularly amongst executives. And yes, I'm aware that they've been making this big push for

00:45:16   diversity, or so they say, but I feel like it's not really hitting the upper echelons of Apple,

00:45:23   and that's not a good thing. And I guess maybe my conflicting feelings are just about,

00:45:28   I think it would be good to do what this shareholder, whatever, is trying to do.

00:45:35   This just seems like a peculiar way to go about doing it.

00:45:38   But I guess this is the only way a shareholder can force Apple's hand.

00:45:41   I don't know. I know that's very muddy and gray, but do you guys have any thoughts on this?

00:45:45   Joe: Well, this thing doesn't ask them to throw out executives.

00:45:48   Like, that's not the choice they're making here.

00:45:49   "Oh, adopt this proposal and you have to can one of your top executives."

00:45:52   No, they totally don't.

00:45:53   I think we talked about this maybe one of the earlier times that it came up,

00:45:58   and I think the situation is still the same and it boils down to companies don't like being told

00:46:04   what to do, right? So the fact that this is a shareholder proposal and that it's coming from

00:46:08   the outside and that these shareholders are trying to say, "Apple, you should do this specific thing,"

00:46:12   I think just institutionally all corporations are like, "You're not the boss of me. You can't," like,

00:46:19   and Apple's answer is always this weird sort of vaguely hostile mumbo jumbo to say, "Look,

00:46:26   Like we already have our own initiatives about diversity

00:46:29   that are actually broader than this very narrow proposal,

00:46:32   therefore we reject it.

00:46:33   But every time I look at this thing go,

00:46:34   I have to think like,

00:46:35   this is not even actually about diversity.

00:46:38   It is totally about the idea that big companies

00:46:43   and especially Apple,

00:46:44   their default position on every single share over

00:46:47   of the proposal is no, no, no, no.

00:46:49   We have a board of directors.

00:46:51   We are the bosses of ourselves,

00:46:52   even though you technically own the company

00:46:54   or some large portion of the company through your shares

00:46:56   or whatever, there are not enough of you,

00:46:58   there is not enough of a coalition

00:47:00   to make it worth our while to listen to you,

00:47:02   you cannot tell us what to do.

00:47:04   And it doesn't matter what it's about,

00:47:05   whether it's about, you know, renewable energy

00:47:09   or executive compensation or diversity over the years,

00:47:14   looking at these types of proposals

00:47:17   and seeing all the stories about like,

00:47:18   just Apple always advises to reject all of them.

00:47:22   And it's kind of a shame

00:47:23   This one is specifically about diversity.

00:47:25   I'm not sure if the proposal,

00:47:28   it would be better or worse

00:47:29   at advancing the cause of diversity within Apple

00:47:33   than what Apple is already doing.

00:47:34   It's difficult to tell because again,

00:47:35   these of you tend to be very focused

00:47:37   and kind of not vindictive, but like,

00:47:41   like, come on Apple, you gotta,

00:47:42   whatever you're doing, it's taking too long

00:47:45   and it is being ineffective.

00:47:46   So here is a more aggressive thing

00:47:48   that may or may not have as much regard

00:47:52   for the success of the company overall,

00:47:53   but just saying, look, Apple, you gotta get off your butt.

00:47:55   So it could be the most important function of these

00:47:58   is to let Apple know and know in certain terms

00:48:00   that they're not doing a good enough job, right?

00:48:04   And that's why enough shareholders got together

00:48:06   to make this proposal and to vote on it.

00:48:08   Apple's still gonna recommend against it

00:48:09   and Apple's still gonna think their plan is good,

00:48:10   but hopefully the message is getting through

00:48:12   that whatever it is that you're doing,

00:48:14   you're not doing it fast enough or well enough.

00:48:16   But I continue to think that Apple will reject

00:48:18   every single one of these proposals.

00:48:20   or Apple will encourage the rest of the shareholders

00:48:23   to reject them rather because these go up for a vote

00:48:24   for all the shareholders and Apple has a recommendation.

00:48:27   We think shareholders should vote this down

00:48:28   and in the end they tend to because

00:48:31   the shareholders of Apple,

00:48:32   they are, you know, at a certain point,

00:48:34   it's a small number of very rich shareholders

00:48:36   who are inclined to do what the corporation says

00:48:38   versus a much larger number

00:48:40   of not quite as rich shareholders

00:48:42   who are backing this type of proposal.

00:48:44   So it is kind of a difficult and uncomfortable situation.

00:48:49   But I think Apple should be getting the message

00:48:52   and Apple needs to change what it's doing,

00:48:54   even if it continues to reject all.

00:48:56   It continues to encourage its shareholders

00:48:59   to throw these down and their shareholders

00:49:00   continue to do so.

00:49:01   - It's just a tough situation

00:49:04   and I wish that there was a easy turnkey answer,

00:49:07   but I just wanted to call attention to that.

00:49:09   So breaking news just before we recorded,

00:49:13   in a rare stroke of good luck for ATP,

00:49:15   it seems that Apple, clearly the executives

00:49:18   listen to this program because we're getting a new Mac Pro. Wait, never mind, I

00:49:21   guess they don't listen. But anyway, they seem to all, the Apple executive seemed

00:49:27   to always want to do Apple news on Thursdays, which is the day after we

00:49:31   record. But in a rare stroke of good luck on this evening, like an hour or two

00:49:35   before we started recording, it was announced, and I first saw it on Tech

00:49:39   Crunch by a friend of the show, Matt Pansarino, that Apple has bought the app

00:49:44   and the company that makes it called Workflow, which if you listen to any of

00:49:50   the shows of some of our friends you'll know that people like Mike Hurley and

00:49:55   Federico Vittucci for example are huge into Workflow. I've used it a bunch. I

00:49:59   really like it. I'm nowhere near their level, but I do like it and use it. And

00:50:04   this is a trick. Just whether or not Workflow has a place in your life, it is

00:50:11   is a phenomenally impressive app. And basically, it's sort of kind of like Automator is on OSX,

00:50:19   or excuse me, Mac OS. That's not a truly fair analogy, but sort of that kind of thing where

00:50:24   you can, you have a series of different actions that you can string together, also vaguely,

00:50:29   similar to If This Then That. And you can string these actions together to do, to create workflows,

00:50:34   and to do these just unbelievably complex things. So Apple has bought workflow, and

00:50:40   the three founders of the company are going to be working for Apple. And that's really,

00:50:47   really exciting. Now I'm also hearing breaking news that I haven't yet confirmed that apparently

00:50:52   they're already, they've already made the app free, good, but they're already removing

00:50:58   Chrome support and Street View actions because Apple.

00:51:02   - Well, actually there might be something else to that.

00:51:05   - Okay.

00:51:06   - So a couple of weeks ago, or yeah, recently,

00:51:10   like a week ago or something like that,

00:51:12   I got an email from Workflow.

00:51:14   I don't want to go into too many of the details

00:51:16   because I don't know if they wanted this

00:51:18   to be public or not, so I'll try to be tasteful here.

00:51:21   But basically, Workflow has supported

00:51:23   Overcast URL Scheme for quite some time.

00:51:27   And I got an email basically from asking me

00:51:30   to sign a legal document that basically says

00:51:35   it's okay for them to call my app via its URL schemes.

00:51:39   Something on the lines of like,

00:51:40   if you want us to continue supporting this in the future,

00:51:44   please sign this document.

00:51:46   And my best guess at the time,

00:51:48   which turned out to be true, is that

00:51:50   somebody is about to invest a lot of money in them

00:51:52   or acquire them and is doing due diligence.

00:51:55   And somebody's lawyer told the somebody

00:51:57   with all the money buying them or investing in them,

00:52:00   You know they should really shore this up

00:52:01   in some kind of legal fashion to make sure

00:52:03   that none of the apps that workflow calls via URL schemes

00:52:07   would later threaten them in any legal way

00:52:10   for using like an undocumented API

00:52:12   or using an API without permission or something like that.

00:52:16   My best guess with the immediate removal

00:52:19   of the Google related features

00:52:21   is not that Apple is being a jerk to Google,

00:52:25   but that Google probably just didn't respond

00:52:27   and didn't even consider signing this document

00:52:28   'cause it was basically a very, very simple

00:52:33   but still legal contract-like document.

00:52:37   I'm not a lawyer, I can't tell you exactly what it was,

00:52:38   but it looked like a very simple contract.

00:52:41   So you would imagine emailing Google to say,

00:52:43   "Hey, sign this contract, please,

00:52:44   "so we can keep calling you from our iOS app."

00:52:47   Like, I don't think that's gonna be a high priority

00:52:50   for Google's legal department to review and--

00:52:52   - But they're usually so responsive to people

00:52:54   who email them on that issue.

00:52:55   It's so out of character for them.

00:52:57   - Exactly.

00:52:58   So basically, I'm guessing that, again,

00:53:01   this is not some kind of like, you know,

00:53:04   Apple immediately being a jerk to Google

00:53:05   because they're Google, it's probably Google didn't feel

00:53:09   like it was worth responding to that

00:53:10   or hasn't gotten to it yet or legal decided

00:53:12   it wasn't worth the legal implications of it.

00:53:15   And so, you know, after the acquisition,

00:53:18   Apple probably just says, "All right, well,

00:53:19   "this is your deadline that anybody,

00:53:21   "just for legal protection reasons for themselves,

00:53:23   "anybody who hasn't signed this document

00:53:25   "saying you can call their secret APIs

00:53:26   or URL schemes or whatever, you can't do it anymore.

00:53:30   - That's an interesting take.

00:53:31   - Yeah, so the bigger issue on workflow though is like,

00:53:35   I've just saw this acquisition,

00:53:36   what I immediately felt was I felt bad for Vitici and Mike

00:53:41   and all the other workflow enthusiasts

00:53:44   because when Apple buys a company

00:53:48   that does something like this,

00:53:50   it can go a couple different ways.

00:53:51   It can be what they call an aqua hire

00:53:52   where the whole point is they're just buying it

00:53:54   to get these employees who have proven

00:53:55   they're really, really good iOS developers. And so we, or Apple, we would love really

00:54:00   good iOS developers. Let's buy the company. And now we've got those developers. And then

00:54:04   the product just gets sunsetted. It becomes free. It hangs out for a while.

00:54:08   Is it sunsat?

00:54:09   Sunsat, yeah. And then it just goes away. Other possibilities are like what they did

00:54:13   with TestFlight, where they buy it and it continues to exist, but now is an Apple internal

00:54:19   thing. But here's the deal. Even in that scenario, Apple's priorities are different than the

00:54:24   the priorities of an independent workflow company, even for strategy tax things like

00:54:28   even though this Chrome thing is probably not that, right?

00:54:30   But Apple has different priorities.

00:54:32   Different things are important to Apple as the platform owner than they are as someone

00:54:35   writing an application on the platform.

00:54:37   So even in the best case, workflow is going to change in ways that are better for Apple

00:54:43   and probably not better for existing workflow customers.

00:54:48   It could change in ways that are better for both because they have now workloads access

00:54:51   private API's and knows about the road map or whatever workflow itself could be integrated

00:54:55   into the next major version of iOS as a core feature of the OS to stop being an independent

00:55:00   application or become a bundled application like there are good scenarios this but either way

00:55:05   it is a disruption to the workflow of all the people who use this application as part of their

00:55:10   daily work even if you just have to rejigger all your scripts and change things around so

00:55:17   There may be a really bad situation

00:55:20   for people who love workflow.

00:55:21   But as someone who has workflow and uses a little bit,

00:55:25   but don't have--

00:55:26   my work is not intimately tied into it,

00:55:30   I think I'm hoping that it is yet another sign that Apple is

00:55:36   trying to do things to make iOS a more powerful platform

00:55:39   for people with more demanding needs.

00:55:41   Because I don't want to believe that it was purely these guys

00:55:46   are good iOS developers, get them and have them do something.

00:55:49   I want to believe it's because they recognize

00:55:51   that the people who are using iOS devices in the most

00:55:56   sophisticated way love workflow.

00:55:59   And that's something-- those capabilities

00:56:01   should be part of the operating system

00:56:02   to make iOS on the iPad, or even on the phone for that matter,

00:56:06   a more capable system.

00:56:08   So I think overall it's encouraging.

00:56:11   But for anybody who really, really love workflow,

00:56:13   I think the very near future is either slightly painful or very grim, but the longer term

00:56:20   future for the platform I think is better.

00:56:22   Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, the way Workflow, you know, Workflow has a lot of

00:56:27   different features these days, but kind of the core of it and the first part of it before

00:56:33   it had all these new API-related features was it was just calling URL schemes for apps

00:56:38   and using X callback URL and everything else.

00:56:41   And, you know, X callback URL,

00:56:44   I don't say this to brag,

00:56:47   I say this as historical context.

00:56:49   Greg Pierce and I actually invented that.

00:56:53   (laughs)

00:56:54   Greg Pierce is the developer of Drafts

00:56:56   and also a couple other apps,

00:56:58   and one of them is Terminology,

00:57:00   which is like a fancy dictionary app, basically.

00:57:03   And back in 2010, he contacted me asking,

00:57:07   Is there a way that we can make Instapaper

00:57:10   basically shell out to terminology

00:57:12   for its dictionary lookups?

00:57:15   And we basically went back and forth

00:57:17   over a couple days via email and worked out

00:57:19   this URL scheme called X Callback,

00:57:22   and you could just, it had these parameters,

00:57:25   and it was basically the first thing I knew of on iOS

00:57:27   where there was a defined protocol that you could launch,

00:57:31   you could shell out to another app via URL scheme

00:57:33   and give that app a way to call you back when it's done.

00:57:37   At the time, I think both of us looked at this

00:57:39   as a tremendous hack.

00:57:42   (laughs)

00:57:43   And it became big anyway.

00:57:46   And Greg went and really kind of took the ball

00:57:51   and ran with it and made a whole site and directory

00:57:55   about X Callback URL, formally documented this little

00:58:00   fairly simple URL scheme spec that we had come up with,

00:58:03   and then made this big directory of all the different apps

00:58:05   that used it and documented all the URL schemes,

00:58:07   and that's really what made the world

00:58:10   of X Callback URL take off, was that big site that he ran

00:58:13   and publicizing it and everything else.

00:58:15   But even back then, this was 2010, remember,

00:58:17   even back then, I think both Greg and I looked at it

00:58:20   as this is really a temporary need,

00:58:24   that surely in the future, iOS is going to add

00:58:28   some better ways of interapp communication and scripting

00:58:31   and things like that, other ways to solve this problem

00:58:35   that isn't calling URL schemes in the background

00:58:38   and launching apps and then kicking you

00:58:40   between different apps and having them all

00:58:41   come to the program for a second and then kick you back.

00:58:43   That is kind of a terrible hack.

00:58:46   And now, almost seven years later,

00:58:50   iOS has added extensions, which help tremendously,

00:58:54   but only in certain ways, like only in the extension points

00:58:57   and only in the very strict ways those are defined

00:58:59   and in the very limited areas that they exist in.

00:59:02   So extensions help a little,

00:59:04   but what they need is something bigger.

00:59:07   And on the Mac, they have the entire AppleScript interface,

00:59:09   not to mention everything from the Unix system below it,

00:59:13   all the different scripting and IPC mechanisms

00:59:16   that are all over the Mac OS.

00:59:17   The Mac has this very well covered,

00:59:19   but iOS still really doesn't.

00:59:21   So there is very much a need.

00:59:25   If Apple wants to keep pushing iOS into productivity,

00:59:28   which is especially important for the iPad business,

00:59:30   I'd say, and it sure wouldn't hurt

00:59:34   the iPhone business either.

00:59:36   But if Apple wants to push people

00:59:38   into more productivity use on iOS,

00:59:41   they need automation systems like this.

00:59:43   They need mechanisms in the OS itself

00:59:47   for apps to communicate with each other,

00:59:50   automate each other, and for users to help

00:59:54   define, write, and edit, and chain together those automations

00:59:58   And again, on the Mac they have all this already,

01:00:00   they've had it for years, decades even.

01:00:03   If I was a user of Workflow, I would not feel great

01:00:06   about the future of that app right now,

01:00:08   because in any acquisition, the future of the app that,

01:00:12   and this is, I think, clearly, mostly an acqui-hire.

01:00:16   I know in the official story to the press,

01:00:20   I think they said it wasn't,

01:00:21   but I think it pretty clearly is.

01:00:23   Everyone always says it isn't, everyone always says

01:00:25   their product's gonna keep going indefinitely,

01:00:27   and it's gonna be wonderful.

01:00:27   we have great plans for the future,

01:00:29   and then it gets sunset.

01:00:31   So I would not depend on this app being there

01:00:35   in say a year or two.

01:00:37   But I do think that there's a good chance

01:00:40   that the reason they bought this app

01:00:42   and the reason they hired this talented team

01:00:46   who's really good at iOS automation

01:00:48   probably has something to do with an effort

01:00:51   to improve iOS automation at the system level.

01:00:54   And again, I think pretty much everything John said

01:00:56   that I agree with, that I would not expect this app

01:01:00   to continue to exist in two years, say.

01:01:04   I would bet that, it's too late probably for iOS 11,

01:01:09   but I would bet by iOS 12 or 13,

01:01:11   there is something, there is some kind of system

01:01:15   or new technology in the OS that is better

01:01:19   in some way at automation than URL schemes

01:01:23   and things like that, which would make, say,

01:01:27   70% of workflow unnecessary.

01:01:30   And Apple would consider that good enough,

01:01:31   and then they would kill the app.

01:01:33   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:01:35   My first reaction is, oh, this app is going away immediately.

01:01:39   And then, as I thought more about it, I thought,

01:01:43   you know, the most obvious answer to me

01:01:46   is what you said, Marco, which is,

01:01:48   it'll get sucked into iOS maybe in 12, if not 11,

01:01:52   but, or whatever we're on now,

01:01:54   God, I'm losing track.

01:01:56   But anyways, it'll get sucked into some version of,

01:01:58   yeah, thank you, it'll get sucked into some version of iOS,

01:02:02   and then it'll go away and that'll be that.

01:02:04   But then I got thinking about it more,

01:02:06   and the reason I felt like it would get sucked into iOS

01:02:10   is because it feels like this is wrong

01:02:12   for Apple to make an app that is so feature rich

01:02:15   and offers so much functionality

01:02:17   that isn't part of the OS itself.

01:02:18   And that very well still could be.

01:02:20   But then I got to thinking about like,

01:02:22   iMovie or GarageBand or

01:02:24   you know some of these other apps like that and it occurred to me that

01:02:29   You know those are pretty full-featured apps and yeah, it's less of a system level thing like that the problem domain

01:02:35   I think is a little more bounded, but they're really really big

01:02:39   complex kind of intense apps that are Apple branded, but are

01:02:46   Downloaded optionally from the App Store, and so this may not be any different

01:02:51   I'm disappointed by, but like you said Marco, maybe it's for good reason that some of the

01:02:57   third-party stuff is already getting neutered.

01:02:59   But nevertheless, I'm pretty optimistic about this, probably in part because I don't rely

01:03:04   on it to get my job done.

01:03:06   But I'm pretty optimistic about this because it's kind of a win-win, right?

01:03:10   Either a lot of this functionality gets built into iOS and makes iOS more powerful, or if

01:03:14   it's kept in some vague form like it is today, well, it's a great darn app.

01:03:20   And so that's a win too.

01:03:22   So I'm very tentatively optimistic about this.

01:03:25   - Well and the other thing that people,

01:03:27   that workflow users I think should find somewhat comforting

01:03:31   is that most of the app, it's not doing things

01:03:34   that only these developers and only this app could do.

01:03:38   It's doing things that are possible for anyone else

01:03:41   to step in and recreate with a new app.

01:03:44   I don't say this to insult the app

01:03:46   or to say that it was easy to make,

01:03:48   but that it is a combination of things

01:03:51   that each one of which is fairly easy,

01:03:53   and so, which like most apps, honestly,

01:03:56   but the point is like if workflow disappears,

01:04:01   if it shuts down or it is made to suck

01:04:04   in a way that people find intolerable,

01:04:07   there will be a new one.

01:04:08   Someone else will make a new one.

01:04:09   It might take a few months,

01:04:11   but someone else will make a new one,

01:04:12   'cause there's clearly a market demand for it,

01:04:15   and these are high-end technical and very devoted users,

01:04:20   if workflow disappears, there's going to immediately be

01:04:24   a not massive, but very passionate and very desperate market

01:04:29   who would probably pay like 10, 15, 20 bucks

01:04:32   for an iOS app to replace it.

01:04:34   So I wouldn't worry too much about that

01:04:37   unless Apple actually starts prohibiting apps

01:04:39   that are like this, which would be possible.

01:04:41   That is certainly a risk.

01:04:43   I wouldn't say it's incredibly likely,

01:04:45   but it's certainly a risk.

01:04:46   But anyway, basically workflow people,

01:04:50   there might be some disruption.

01:04:53   And I don't mean that in the tech guy sense.

01:04:55   I mean that in the literal meaning of the word.

01:04:58   There might be some disruption to your workflows.

01:05:01   I'm sorry, but, God, this is a terrible phrase

01:05:04   in this market.

01:05:06   But I think in the long run you'll be okay.

01:05:08   - So we brought up TestFlight already,

01:05:10   which is I think one of the most,

01:05:14   The best example of an application that was bought and content didn't even change the

01:05:18   icon did they?

01:05:19   Like TestFlight continues to be called TestFlight as a separate application and Apple uses it

01:05:26   for the purpose the TestFlight was created.

01:05:28   So it's like it survived the acquisition, right?

01:05:31   And then of course your applications that totally go away or become free and disappear.

01:05:35   Serendi Colville just pointed out on Twitter that Siri, Siri was an independent company

01:05:38   about the people, you know, like same thing.

01:05:41   They had an application on the store and it went free when it got bought back in 2010.

01:05:44   eventually it got rolled into the OS. So that's another possibility for this is that, you know,

01:05:48   we hope that this what this means is that Apple wants to make automation better on iOS. Like it's

01:05:54   that seems clear, like why, you know, in some fashion, whether you're just gonna have these

01:05:57   people do a new thing or you're gonna incorporate that, but you could have workflow appearing as an

01:06:01   Apple application with a different icon, perhaps bundled with the OS, perhaps free downloadable,

01:06:07   you know, as an Apple branded thing until the big new we have big improvements automation come in

01:06:15   iOS 12 or something. So it could be the application like becomes part of the OS in terms of

01:06:22   it's still called workflow, it still more or less works the same, maybe gets a new coat of paint,

01:06:28   and while that sits there doing its thing, those people who made that application are working on

01:06:34   the next big thing in terms of automating workflows, maybe incorporate, maybe, you know,

01:06:39   working in conjunction with whatever possible multitasking improvements that may be coming

01:06:44   into iOS that we'll see this summer or whatever. So there are a lot of possibilities and I see all

01:06:48   of them point towards, to me anyway, automation becoming better on the Mac. But it's really,

01:06:54   especially with the portability, like will my workflows port over to the new Apple one? Will

01:06:58   my workflows carry over to the new world of automation that's going to happen in iOS 12?

01:07:03   Who knows but I think I think these are going in the right direction even though it might be a little painful short-term

01:07:07   Did you mean iOS there? You said the Mac? Yeah, I know I got Mac on the brain

01:07:11   Yep, you know just replace what I said, but the words, you know that I meant

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01:09:11   (upbeat music)

01:09:15   - All right, so there was yesterday,

01:09:17   and we've made several references to this already

01:09:20   in this episode, yesterday there was an announcement

01:09:24   There are a series of announcements of new Apple products,

01:09:27   and so I'm gonna try to run through

01:09:29   just a very high level each of them,

01:09:30   and then we'll step in and do a deeper dive

01:09:32   through each of them after that.

01:09:33   So there's now a red iPhone 7.

01:09:35   It is product red, which means some subset of this money

01:09:40   is donated towards AIDS research, et cetera, et cetera.

01:09:44   - Except in China?

01:09:45   - Except in China, which we'll get to in a minute.

01:09:47   - Well, I think they actually got clarification on that.

01:09:49   I think Cook gave some statement to somebody somewhere

01:09:52   saying that actually, yes, a portion of the proceeds

01:09:54   also being donated from China sales.

01:09:56   I think it just isn't branded as such.

01:09:58   - Oh, interesting, that makes you feel a little better.

01:10:00   There's a new, there are a couple of new iPhone SE

01:10:03   storage sizes, as far as anyone can tell,

01:10:05   the internals are otherwise identical,

01:10:08   but the SE no longer has the 16 gig option,

01:10:11   which means that there are no more 16 gig iOS devices.

01:10:15   John Siracusa, how happy are you right now?

01:10:17   - I should have looked up the timelines for this,

01:10:20   like how long do we have to wait

01:10:21   from the first introduction of 16 gig

01:10:23   to it disappearing. It's taken long enough, but I'm glad it's happened. Although, Apple

01:10:28   always manages to frustrate me with the sizes because they change it now, what is the SD?

01:10:33   Comes in 32 and 128. So it's like, boy, 64 seems like the perfect size, but nope, nope.

01:10:38   You got to pick 32, which at this point it doesn't feel as small as 16, obviously. Like

01:10:42   32 is great, right? It's huge. You know, kudos to getting rid of the 16 gigabyte finally.

01:10:48   But for me personally, like I'd be like, oh, 64, if I was recommending it for somebody

01:10:53   say well 32 will be fine right and 128 is probably too much 64 would be great

01:10:57   but now they just skip that size so I mean that's that's part of this right

01:11:01   like they want you to step up they want you to pay the premium that you pay for

01:11:04   the larger size but I'm glad that 32 is no longer ridiculously painfully way too

01:11:09   small so thank goodness. All right there's a new 9.7 inch iPad everything

01:11:16   that's old is new again we've gone from iPad to iPad 2 or something like that I

01:11:22   I forget the timeline, but it's ridiculous.

01:11:23   iPad with Retina display to iPad Air

01:11:26   and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but anyway.

01:11:28   - You forgot iPad 4th generation and iPad Air 2.

01:11:31   So this, the like 7th iPad,

01:11:33   is called the iPad 5th generation.

01:11:36   - Yeah, remember the new iPad?

01:11:38   - Yes, that was the original name for the iPad 3.

01:11:41   - Yeah, they're just called the new iPad, yeah.

01:11:43   Anyway, this new iPad is the basic spec bump and price drop,

01:11:48   which would be boring, I think,

01:11:50   if it wasn't seemingly so rare these days,

01:11:53   because you either get a spec bump with a price increase,

01:11:57   or something just lingers on,

01:11:59   but this is like the old style.

01:12:00   It's like, we make it faster

01:12:01   'cause new stuff is available,

01:12:03   and it's like the middle of the road product,

01:12:05   so we can actually make it a little bit cheaper

01:12:07   because there's just not much in there,

01:12:09   and it's not getting the top of the top of the line

01:12:11   system on a chip, it's getting a better one.

01:12:14   So I think this 9.7 inch iPad has become more attractive

01:12:19   to people who would otherwise buy, you know, who are shopping for a full-size iPad but

01:12:25   don't need an iPad Pro, especially the Education because they've brought it down below the

01:12:29   magic $300 mark. So it's $299 for Education buyers, and it's thicker than the one that

01:12:37   it replaces. Presumably it's got a little bit more battery. The system on a chip is

01:12:41   faster but not as fast as it could be. So it looks like a good middle-of-the-road big

01:12:46   iPad.

01:12:47   - Yeah, so when this was first announced,

01:12:49   I was kind of puzzled, I'm like, you know,

01:12:50   that's kind of weak, but if for some reason

01:12:53   I had mis-parced the price in my head as 429,

01:12:58   it's actually 329, and that's actually,

01:13:01   that's a bigger deal on the price point

01:13:03   than I originally thought, and it's, you know,

01:13:05   as we get more detail on it, it seems like, you know,

01:13:09   it's kind of arguable whether it's like a spec-bumped Air 2

01:13:14   or whether it's more of a cut down 9.7 Pro,

01:13:17   it's kind of in the middle really,

01:13:19   with some new ways to cut the price down.

01:13:23   It only has the two speakers, like the older iPads.

01:13:28   It does not have the laminated screen.

01:13:32   When the Pros came out, they came with this really nice,

01:13:37   beautiful laminated screen where there's a smaller

01:13:40   or basically zero screen gap between the glass

01:13:43   on the screen, and all the, you know,

01:13:45   the iPhone did this a couple versions back too,

01:13:48   and the iPad finally did it, I think with the 9.7 Pro,

01:13:51   or if not the Air 2, and anyway,

01:13:53   so this one has the old style screen

01:13:54   where there's like that gap there,

01:13:55   like it's kind of a visible gap

01:13:58   between the glass and the screen.

01:13:59   So there's things like that where it's cut down,

01:14:01   and it lacks all the Pro, you know,

01:14:04   the quote iPad Pro feature,

01:14:06   so it does not have pencil support,

01:14:07   it doesn't have a smart connector,

01:14:09   but for a lot of iPad buyers,

01:14:12   that's pretty great.

01:14:14   For 329, it's an amazing value

01:14:18   compared to the rest of the lineup.

01:14:20   Whether you think it's an amazing value

01:14:21   compared to other tablets like from Amazon

01:14:24   or other Android weirdos, that's up to you.

01:14:27   It probably isn't, but oh well, I don't think Apple cares.

01:14:30   But compared to other iPads,

01:14:32   it's a fantastic value for the money

01:14:34   and as long as you don't need any of those pro features.

01:14:37   But I think if you're willing to drop 160 bucks

01:14:40   on a keyboard, you probably aren't that price sensitive

01:14:43   about the purchase price of the initial iPad.

01:14:46   It's obviously being targeted strongly

01:14:50   at educational buyers, but I think it'll also

01:14:52   just be a really good entry level iPad.

01:14:54   I think that's going to be, you know,

01:14:56   they're probably gonna sell a lot of these things.

01:14:58   Just like, and the fact that it has fairly modern internals

01:15:03   is really nice from a user perspective,

01:15:06   from a developer perspective, it's really, really nice.

01:15:08   I mean, to me, the, oh, and also I wanted to point out,

01:15:11   Stephen Hackett wrote a wonderful article on 512 pixels

01:15:15   citing the interesting marketing copy differences

01:15:19   between the way Apple brands this new, cheaper iPad

01:15:22   versus the way they brand the 9.7 Pro,

01:15:24   and this new, cheap one is all about fun.

01:15:27   It's like, you know, casual fun and games,

01:15:29   and the Pro's like, this is your new supercomputer.

01:15:31   It's like totally different marketing guidelines,

01:15:34   but I think that makes sense for how they're targeting it.

01:15:37   The only major question I have about it is,

01:15:40   it kinda leaves the iPad Mini in a weird spot.

01:15:44   Because they also discontinued the old Mini,

01:15:47   so now there's only one iPad Mini available.

01:15:49   It's more expensive than this.

01:15:51   It's the $400 Mini 4, 128 gig.

01:15:56   And so this to me kinda looks like

01:16:00   this is their gradual way of maybe killing the Mini,

01:16:03   I don't know.

01:16:04   But this new 9.7 is now, I think,

01:16:09   better than that Mini in most ways.

01:16:12   And this is clearly their new entry level iPad.

01:16:17   So I don't think the Mini has a lot of places

01:16:20   to go anymore, but I don't know.

01:16:22   - Yeah, I've never been a big fan of the Mini,

01:16:24   and if it's not gonna be cheaper than this,

01:16:25   then I don't know why anyone would be into it

01:16:29   unless they really love that size.

01:16:30   - I mean, in all fairness, they do still sell the iPod Touch.

01:16:33   I know I was going to say, by the way, there is actually one 16 gigabyte model at the iPod

01:16:37   Touch, which everyone forgets exists, is still available in 16 gigs.

01:16:40   Even Apple forgets it exists.

01:16:42   It almost doesn't count.

01:16:43   But hey, you know what?

01:16:44   You can get the iPod Touch and you can get it in 16, 32, 64, and 128.

01:16:48   No gaps, no 256 model, but whatever.

01:16:52   So for this iPad, this I think is what one of the things that we would, we on the show

01:16:58   at least, would probably love it if Apple did with the laptop or desktop line, which

01:17:02   is take a middle of the road model and make it cheaper and thicker.

01:17:08   Like bring the price down, you know, make something that is, you know, make it more

01:17:14   powerful, bring the price down by sacrificing the nice to haves, the laminated screen, the

01:17:21   couple of millimeters of thickness, the little bit of extra weight in exchange for like in

01:17:27   this class, like do you need the fanciest most laminated screen?

01:17:30   Do you need true tone?

01:17:32   you just rather have a machine that is like a hundred bucks cheaper, but also pretty darn fast and sacrifice like a millimeter of

01:17:38   Thickness. Yes, like that's what a middle-of-the-road model should be

01:17:41   It makes the expensive one look like what am I getting for money? You're getting fancier crap, right? It is actually faster

01:17:48   It's nicer. It's it's it's got the laminated screen on it. It's got the smart connector or whatever

01:17:52   You see what you're paying for there

01:17:54   but it is a thing that gets bumped and doesn't just you know

01:17:57   It's not like the iPad 2 that stays the same and it's just like super crappy and you feel like you're getting a terrible model

01:18:01   And the fact that they made this thicker like I think that's great. That's exactly what we're looking for

01:18:05   please make those trade-offs in the middle models to make a

01:18:08   Machine that has better it gives people better value for the money

01:18:11   And so I'm encouraged with this and I think someone pointed out that the the iPad line is now

01:18:16   Much simplified over its previous thing now. We have two iPad pros one of which is a little creaky

01:18:20   We'll talk about later two iPad pros the big one in the small one and then you have two other iPads

01:18:25   Which are not pros the big one in the small one and it's weird that the mini is called like the iPad mini 4

01:18:30   And I agree that it's a weird product in it with a weird price and it maybe it will go away

01:18:34   Or maybe it itself will get bumped in the same way and that it will there will be a faster mini for

01:18:38   That is cheaper and that sacrifices. I don't know what you can sacrifice. What's left to sacrifice not on the mini. I don't know

01:18:44   but

01:18:46   Overall, I think this was a good announcement and especially especially for education. I think they need to drive it down farther

01:18:51   For that purposes like kind of like the iPad 2 was in the end of its life and it was just so

01:18:55   Incredibly behind the times that they could probably sell it to education for much less money

01:19:00   me, but anyway, thumbs up.

01:19:03   So continuing with the summary, and then we'll come back and talk about each one individually,

01:19:06   like I said, there are—

01:19:08   No, that's not happening. I was not on board with that plan.

01:19:12   I love you too.

01:19:13   But I did see—I did like the fact that we cruised through the red iPhone and the SE

01:19:18   with appropriate speed. We don't need to circle back to them. It's red. It looks

01:19:21   cool. It's nice.

01:19:22   Yeah, so I guess since we're talking about this now—sorry, Casey.

01:19:26   Oh my god.

01:19:29   You deserve this for all your follow-up complaints.

01:19:31   - Yeah, the red iPhone.

01:19:32   It's nice that it's product red.

01:19:34   This is, as you mentioned about the charitable donation

01:19:38   part of this, it is nice that they finally,

01:19:41   for the very first time, brought that

01:19:43   to their most profitable product, the iPhone.

01:19:46   Like I guess maybe back in the iPod days it might have been.

01:19:47   But anyway, it's been a while.

01:19:50   You've been able to get red stuff from Apple.

01:19:53   The red iPod Touch has been there for a while,

01:19:55   which by the way looks a lot like the new red iPhone.

01:19:58   (laughs)

01:20:00   The, you know, that you had like the product red watch bands

01:20:02   and stuff like that.

01:20:03   It's really nice to be able to finally get it on the iPhone.

01:20:06   I hope, you know, when, basically before the,

01:20:09   before we saw the 7 and there were some rumors

01:20:12   of new colors, I believe I made some comment back then

01:20:14   about how like, I would love for them to replace

01:20:17   all of the like old metal colors,

01:20:19   like the silver, space gray, gold, rose gold.

01:20:23   I would like, you know, those all, I think,

01:20:24   look stale to me now.

01:20:25   Like all four of those I would say look fairly overdone

01:20:29   and dated these days on most of the products,

01:20:31   especially the iPhone.

01:20:33   So to have new colors is very, very welcome.

01:20:36   I was, you know, this, and I think this phone looks great.

01:20:39   I do think it looks a little bit like the old iPod Touch

01:20:42   and a little to an uncomfortable degree.

01:20:44   And I agree with Mike's complaint that it should

01:20:48   definitely have a red circle around the touch ID button

01:20:51   because all the other phones have metal color

01:20:53   matching circles.

01:20:54   So that also have a black front. I do not like white fronted phones

01:20:58   I don't like white fronts of the things but a lot of people do so like

01:21:03   If they're not gonna make it in two colors like hey

01:21:06   Here's a red back and a black front and a red black and a white front like they have to pick one of them and it's

01:21:10   Just a personal taste thing. Honestly. I think the white front looks really good

01:21:13   I would never want to own it for the reasons

01:21:15   I've talked about before by putting some a reflective white surface next to the screen just makes your screen look dingier because it can never

01:21:20   Compare to the sun shining off a white thing

01:21:22   Like I think it's a I don't want it and but it's totally personal preference

01:21:25   I think it looks I think it looks really it looks like a Christmas phone looks like a piece of candy

01:21:29   People say it in like a bad way like oh this looks like the iPod touches the iPod touches look cool

01:21:34   I and you know and because this is entirely a fashion thing and a taste thing

01:21:39   I I have no complaints about the white front despite the fact that I would never ever ever buy one because

01:21:44   You know, they they make phones that some people are gonna like how it looks

01:21:48   That's why they make them in different colors the whole point of different colors

01:21:50   you don't like this color, pick a different color.

01:21:52   And I love the fact that now there is a color

01:21:54   that is not silver, black, or some tint thereof.

01:21:58   Like it is a bold color for a phone.

01:22:00   And the last time we saw that was like the 5C, I guess.

01:22:02   Which I thought were also really fun.

01:22:03   - Well, I would say jet black was a bold color

01:22:07   of that scale.

01:22:08   Like it wasn't expected.

01:22:09   - You can get it any bold color as long as it's black.

01:22:11   - Right, yeah.

01:22:12   No, like it wasn't like something that I would've predicted

01:22:15   or expected how good it ended up being.

01:22:17   but I would say jet black is one of those

01:22:20   like game changer colors that really did feel new

01:22:23   and awesome.

01:22:25   That being said, I do wish this was like jet red,

01:22:28   like I wish it had the finish of the jet black,

01:22:30   like the tacky, 'cause it would increase grip

01:22:32   and everything and I think it might look

01:22:35   a little bit more modern, 'cause again, I do think--

01:22:37   - It would look more like the 5C,

01:22:38   which was also very glossy and colored.

01:22:40   - Yeah, but like more saturated and newer

01:22:43   and thinner and everything else.

01:22:45   I think that would help it not look like an old iPod Touch,

01:22:47   But I do think this is overall a very nice looking phone.

01:22:50   The timing is interesting of it being mid-cycle.

01:22:55   This is about when they launched the SE last year, right?

01:22:59   The cynical take on this is this is a nice way

01:23:03   for them to boost sales in a very slow,

01:23:05   traditional recorder.

01:23:06   It's a nice way for them to boost sales

01:23:08   on their most profitable product line.

01:23:11   - I wish they did this more often.

01:23:12   Who would complain if they treated the phone back

01:23:14   like watch bands?

01:23:15   It's like just throughout the year,

01:23:16   every couple months came out with different colors of phones because it gives them the

01:23:22   freedom to have lots of different ideas and honestly it does get people more excited because

01:23:25   phones are very much faster than accessories. And if you can come out with different colors

01:23:29   in different parts of the year, people will be like, "It does renew your interest in getting

01:23:33   the phones." Especially if you see the phones and you're like, "I don't know if I need a

01:23:36   new phone. I'm not sure I like all these new colors." Especially if they're the same as

01:23:39   last year where it's like gold, rose gold, and maybe you don't like the jet black or

01:23:43   whatever. If you knew you could wait three months and there would be like, you know,

01:23:46   a teal one or a purple one or a yellow one, I mean, I still see 5Cs that are white and

01:23:50   I'm like, "That's a cool looking phone," right? You know, if it's fashion, and the

01:23:56   watches certainly are, and the phone is at this point too, by all means, do this as many

01:24:00   times as you want, Apple. I think it's great.

01:24:01   Yeah. Also, by the way, I think a jet white phone, like with the same finish but in white,

01:24:06   that would look amazing.

01:24:07   Oh, yeah.

01:24:08   But, yeah, anyway.

01:24:09   How are you allowed to say that? And I'm sitting here quietly. Come on.

01:24:12   - You're thinking it's a jet white phone

01:24:13   with a black front on it though, I guess,

01:24:15   but I don't know if that's gonna happen.

01:24:16   - Well, I think that would look better.

01:24:18   I agree with you, I think the red with the white front,

01:24:20   I think that does look better,

01:24:21   even though I agree also that I wouldn't want

01:24:23   the white front, but I think a black back,

01:24:26   or I mean a white back, I think would only look good

01:24:28   with a black front.

01:24:30   Anyway. - Yeah, it's a

01:24:30   storm trooper phone. - Yeah, exactly.

01:24:32   Anyway. - I'm like Iron Man

01:24:34   and I want a white phone.

01:24:36   Oh my God, you're killing me.

01:24:37   - That's because it's in a pleasing shape,

01:24:39   so it does look good in white.

01:24:41   - Ooh. - Oh my God.

01:24:43   What do I do to deserve this?

01:24:44   I just try to keep you two in line.

01:24:45   - Is that to deserve it?

01:24:46   That's just the foundational theory of white cars.

01:24:49   Have we not gone over this?

01:24:50   - No, we have, we have.

01:24:51   - I think we started with this.

01:24:53   - I think we did.

01:24:55   - Yeah, so anyway, I hope, I hope,

01:24:57   I would just love to see more color

01:25:00   in Apple's line in general.

01:25:02   So I hope they keep this up.

01:25:04   You know, this is great.

01:25:06   I don't really, I'm not gonna go trade in my,

01:25:09   still perfectly fine working iPhone 7

01:25:12   that's halfway through its cycle for this.

01:25:15   But if I were buying new today,

01:25:16   I'd seriously consider it.

01:25:18   Although ultimately I still want the grip

01:25:20   of the jet black finish.

01:25:21   So I would probably still decide against it.

01:25:23   But give me jet red and jet white and we'll talk.

01:25:27   But anyway, I hope this fall,

01:25:29   when presumably new iPhones come out again,

01:25:32   although it's hard to say with Apple

01:25:34   when things will come out.

01:25:34   But presumably this fall,

01:25:37   I hope they continue with, even with the new products,

01:25:41   to offer cool new colors.

01:25:42   - Yeah, I would agree with that.

01:25:44   I really like the look of this.

01:25:45   I really do wish it was a black front.

01:25:48   There's something to be said for white

01:25:50   perhaps being a better match,

01:25:51   but the back of this does look awesome.

01:25:55   And they've also released a couple of new colors

01:25:59   for iPhone cases, and I believe it was Sapphire,

01:26:02   on screen anyway, looked really nice.

01:26:04   I haven't seen it in person.

01:26:05   And they've also released a bunch of new watch bands,

01:26:08   which largely match the case colors.

01:26:11   They've also started selling Nike+ bands separately,

01:26:15   which if you want something that is, for the most part,

01:26:19   visually extremely loud, power to you, I guess,

01:26:22   and now you can buy the band.

01:26:24   - As a sport band, having all those holes in it

01:26:26   is really nice for ventilation,

01:26:27   'cause the regular sport band is pretty sweaty,

01:26:29   'cause it just, you know, that solid surface

01:26:31   that does not breathe at all.

01:26:32   So the Nike bands actually are nicer

01:26:35   for sport use for any kind of, you know,

01:26:37   if you're gonna be hot and sweaty,

01:26:40   they're way nicer because they have those holes.

01:26:41   - Yeah, my wife picked that when she bought her watch.

01:26:43   She bought the Nike Plus one,

01:26:44   and I think in part because of the,

01:26:46   she didn't get like the neon one, but the holes,

01:26:48   and she likes it.

01:26:49   - Yeah, like, you know, it does look like

01:26:51   some kind of a crazy alien creature,

01:26:53   but it is highly functional.

01:26:55   But anyway, one more thing before we get off the phone,

01:26:58   the red phone, one angle I think might be interesting

01:27:01   to consider, or I guess we'll see,

01:27:03   is like, so there's two cynical takes,

01:27:06   and there's one I mentioned to boost sales

01:27:08   in a slow quarter.

01:27:09   The second is, will they release a product-read phone

01:27:14   with the charitable donation portion of its profits

01:27:17   during the peak season and the holidays?

01:27:19   Like, will they release it on day one, basically,

01:27:22   for the next phone?

01:27:24   Because that could cost them more money in donations.

01:27:27   That's the kind of thing that I hope they would say,

01:27:29   you know what, it's worth it.

01:27:30   And knowing Tim Cook, I think they probably would,

01:27:32   You know, Tim Cook, he cares a lot about like,

01:27:36   charitable causes and things that are good for the world

01:27:39   and for people's health and everything else.

01:27:40   So I can see him saying, you know what,

01:27:43   screw it, we'll take the hit.

01:27:44   But it's so much money at that scale during the peak quarter

01:27:48   that it might be a tricky balance.

01:27:51   - Well it did, back in the day,

01:27:53   they did introduce several iPods at the time

01:27:56   when the iPod was still a very important product,

01:27:58   that when a new line came out,

01:27:59   it would come with the Product Red one,

01:28:01   there was no delay like what you're talking about here are the new iPod Nanos and you

01:28:04   can get these five colors plus product red that happened routinely I know because my

01:28:07   wife bought a lot of the red ones because they were cool and they were red so I totally

01:28:11   think they'll do it I think it's just a question of like manufacturing ramps and how many different

01:28:17   colors they can handle and being able to deal with multiple skews and the color variant

01:28:22   like we always have problems with that like I never know how well they try to predict

01:28:25   what the color mix will be they're always off by a little bit and at the scales they

01:28:28   do it, it makes people frustrated, they gotta like look for a jet black one or remember

01:28:32   when people couldn't find the gold phones for the very first gold one. It's difficult

01:28:36   so I feel like if they don't do it, it will mostly be for inventory control reasons.

01:28:41   Clips for iOS. A forthcoming app that will, how are they pitching this? It will basically

01:28:48   let you make little videos and I think it's apple.com/clips. We'll have a link in the

01:28:55   show notes.

01:28:56   It's like Snapchat for olds.

01:28:57   But it's not like Snapchat.

01:28:59   No, I know.

01:29:00   This, to many people who have heard from Apple about this topic, this appears to be surprisingly

01:29:07   to, you know, we were all looking at the announcements yesterday, surprisingly, perhaps the most

01:29:11   important announcement from Apple's perspective of all the things we just listed, even though

01:29:15   it is software and not hardware, and even though it seems like, great, you made an app

01:29:20   that we can make videos with.

01:29:23   Unlike Snapchat and Instagram and all these other applications that people use to take

01:29:26   videos of themselves and put words over those videos and stick stickers on their faces and

01:29:30   do all the other stuff that they do. This is not a Ping version 2.0. This is not an

01:29:36   Apple social network. This is not a way for you to share videos for people. This is a

01:29:40   video production tool. This is a way for you to make impressive looking videos that you

01:29:45   then shove onto all those social networks run by companies that are not Apple. And it's

01:29:50   leveraging Apple's strengths. We know how to make nice looking video transition effects.

01:29:55   We know how to take video and incorporate other elements into video.

01:29:58   We know how to let you somehow edit video with your fingers on this tiny little phone

01:30:02   screen.

01:30:03   We can help you in the same way that iMovie helped you make like family movies that looked

01:30:07   100 times better than the family movies that were cut together and edited on someone's

01:30:13   mini DV camcorder, like literally on the camcorder.

01:30:16   Like when you use your Mac to do it, you got these amazing transitions and effects and

01:30:19   things that were previously only available on professional software.

01:30:21   And you're like, you made that yourself, even if you just use one of the stinking templates

01:30:24   or Keynote made you let people make tasteful presentations

01:30:27   that didn't look like they were made in PowerPoint

01:30:29   because they weren't,

01:30:30   like just by providing good tools and templates.

01:30:32   That's what this seems to be,

01:30:34   a very well done application for video production

01:30:38   whose output is targeting all those services

01:30:41   that people use to share video of themselves.

01:30:44   - Yeah, I think it looks really good.

01:30:45   This is trying to tie together

01:30:50   like three or four different worlds,

01:30:52   none of which I really understand

01:30:54   or participated in very much.

01:30:55   So it's hard for me to have a smart take on how it will do.

01:30:59   But how it looks on this page, it looks good,

01:31:01   and I'm gonna play with it.

01:31:02   - You do participate in it because I watch videos of you

01:31:05   on these services, often taken by your wife.

01:31:08   I mean, you do Periscope a lot.

01:31:09   That is one of these services.

01:31:11   I know it's not like a pre-produced thing

01:31:12   where you put stuff on, but it is like,

01:31:14   "Hey, I wanna take some spur-of-the-moment video

01:31:18   "that immediately gets shared with people

01:31:19   "onto a social network type of thing."

01:31:21   And it is perhaps the least invasive,

01:31:24   where they're not putting little stickers over your head

01:31:26   or writing words on the screen.

01:31:27   But for Instagram, I follow people

01:31:30   who post daily Instagram stories or whatever they're called,

01:31:33   where it's just a series of small clips

01:31:35   with some text occasionally over it or some audio.

01:31:38   And I gotta tell you, of all those things I look at,

01:31:40   they look pretty rough.

01:31:41   And if someone could use an--

01:31:43   it's a question of, do people care enough about the quality

01:31:45   to go into an external app and hit the Share button

01:31:48   and share to Instagram versus doing it

01:31:49   from within the Instagram app.

01:31:51   But this should be Apple's strength in the same way

01:31:54   that iMovie demonstrated Apple's strength,

01:31:58   and back in the day, iPhoto used to, less now.

01:32:01   They make good software for dealing with media,

01:32:04   and they're able to do it even on the phone

01:32:08   to leverage all the hardware they have there that makes it

01:32:10   like a little magical video production studio to make

01:32:13   clever-- and one of the things they were saying

01:32:15   that was clever is it does face recognition,

01:32:17   to know who's in the video,

01:32:18   matches it up with your contact photos to say,

01:32:20   "Oh, it looks like in this video are these three people.

01:32:22   If you wanna share it with them, here are their faces."

01:32:25   It does dictation for the text

01:32:26   so you don't have to type it in.

01:32:28   And supposedly like when you dictate the text,

01:32:30   if you dictate the text with a certain cadence,

01:32:32   it will appear on the screen with that cadence.

01:32:35   So you can, basically by speaking in a certain manner,

01:32:39   make text appear in a way that emphasizes

01:32:42   the point of your video,

01:32:43   as opposed to trying to time that

01:32:44   with like a bunch of curves,

01:32:45   you know, and like lots and lots of clever touches

01:32:48   to let regular people do things

01:32:50   that are much more interesting.

01:32:51   And I think it will probably create a middle tier class

01:32:55   of produced videos in the same way that they were like

01:32:58   professional people producing Vines,

01:33:00   presumably using like, I don't know if I even let you

01:33:02   do this, but something, you know,

01:33:03   for other types of services where it's clear

01:33:06   that there is a group of people using tools

01:33:08   way more sophisticated than are available

01:33:09   on the social services native app

01:33:12   to nevertheless share that video on that app.

01:33:14   So like they would make a video like in Final Cut basically with a bunch of cool effects and everything and trim it down and share

01:33:19   it on a social network in the same way that I take pictures with my fancy camera and put them in Instagram and some people get

01:33:23   Cranky because like it's only supposed to be pictures you take with your phone. Like that's not how I'm using Instagram

01:33:27   I've imagined there are people who are sharing things through social services that are made with very complicated tools

01:33:34   But not everyone can do that

01:33:35   So this is like an in-between thing you have you could use the built-in tools for the sharing services and make an okay video

01:33:41   You can go one step back, which is just a separate application that's also on your phone

01:33:44   and still pretty darn easy to use, but you'll get a nicer result.

01:33:47   And then the final one is, you know, use Final Cut Pro to spend a week making this amazing

01:33:51   video that you hope will go viral and, you know, do it that way.

01:33:57   There's a video on the apple.com/clips and the section is called "Say It, See It" and

01:34:03   there's a little video of a gentleman who is saying how to tie a bow tie and you see

01:34:07   the words pop on screen just like you were describing, Jon.

01:34:09   It looks very clever. I don't I have a snapchat account. I only ever use it to send or receive pictures

01:34:16   With Erin and Declan so oftentimes when he wakes up from nap

01:34:20   She'll go in there and like take a goofy picture with one of the goofy filters

01:34:23   And I gotta say it is actually quite delightful

01:34:25   I don't have the faintest idea how to use the actual features of snapchat that you're supposed to be using because I'm old

01:34:31   I do like Instagram stories

01:34:33   I don't find myself doing it very often because my day is usually pretty boring

01:34:38   But I think they're super cool, and I like that the features they've added and so this to me

01:34:43   I think Marco I know you were being snarky, but I think you're right to some degree to a small degree

01:34:48   I do think this is snapchat for old people, but I'm really amped about this

01:34:52   I think this is gonna be super neat to play with and it may be that I play with it twice and ever use it

01:34:55   Again, but I really think this is Apple firing on all cylinders in theory anyway

01:35:02   We'll see when it when it's released, but it's embracing all the stuff. They're good at just like you guys said and ignoring the stuff

01:35:07   they're not. So rather than making another ping, they're just using this to create content

01:35:12   and then pushing it to the places where you want that content to be, which is awesome.

01:35:16   And a lot of really nice little touches on here, like the, "Oh, you have Aaron in this

01:35:20   video. Do you want to send it to her?" Like, this all sounds really, really cool, and I'm

01:35:24   really looking forward to playing with it. I'm not entirely sure why it was announced

01:35:28   today. Like, I'm not sure what that really buys them.

01:35:31   >> Because it's almost done? >> I guess, but like...

01:35:34   See, that's the thing though,

01:35:35   they did all these announcements

01:35:37   via this barrage of press releases,

01:35:40   but after these announcements were over,

01:35:42   and throughout the entire day yesterday

01:35:44   when they're getting all this press,

01:35:46   you still can't pre-order the red iPhone,

01:35:48   you still can't pre-order the new cheap iPad,

01:35:51   you can't download the Eclipse app,

01:35:54   or even, they didn't even do the App Store notify me thing

01:35:57   like they did for Mario Run.

01:35:59   There's nothing we can do about this.

01:36:01   We're interested now.

01:36:02   give us a way to turn that into something for you later,

01:36:05   Apple, but no, instead we just have to try to remember

01:36:09   about these things and then when they are available

01:36:11   in a week or three, then go get them then.

01:36:15   But why couldn't they do anything,

01:36:19   like why did they have to announce this yesterday

01:36:22   when none of this stuff was even ready to pre-order?

01:36:24   - Exactly.

01:36:25   - They could be trying to space it out, you know?

01:36:27   Like they have other announcements they don't wanna

01:36:29   push it up against them.

01:36:31   I don't really, because I think the Apple line in this

01:36:34   is that they're not the type of products

01:36:38   that there's gonna be a mad rush for people to get.

01:36:42   Like it doesn't really matter when they tell you

01:36:43   about clips being a thing,

01:36:44   'cause it's gonna be like a slow burn,

01:36:46   even though it's not even available.

01:36:47   It requires iOS 10.3 actually.

01:36:50   So no one's gotten it until iOS 10.3 comes out

01:36:52   and 10.3 is not coming out until next month,

01:36:54   sometime probably.

01:36:56   But it's not the same, maybe the iPhone you could argue,

01:36:58   like there could be a potential rush for that.

01:37:00   but I don't know why they all came together.

01:37:03   I don't know why they're all not available,

01:37:04   but I don't think it matters that much

01:37:06   because for all these type of products,

01:37:08   it's not the type of thing where you have to strike

01:37:10   while the iron is hot and build up a frenzy of activities.

01:37:12   It's just gonna be cool new stuff

01:37:13   that Apple's coming out with.

01:37:15   Just so you know, here it is.

01:37:16   It'll be here.

01:37:17   It'll be here before you know it, but it's not a big deal.

01:37:19   Like I don't think anybody is,

01:37:22   it has money burning a hole in their pocket

01:37:23   for that new iPad, even though it is better

01:37:25   than the old one.

01:37:26   It just lets you know, if you were thinking of buying one,

01:37:28   maybe wait a little bit.

01:37:29   And for the application, it'll be coming out soon, but it requires the new OS.

01:37:33   And you know, I, I, I, I, you could question why didn't they wait until like one of the

01:37:39   items is available and like it was announced because that one's all, that one's available

01:37:42   and the other ones aren't because you can't really make, try to make them all simultaneous.

01:37:46   But I don't particularly mind that they, they talk about it ahead of time, especially since

01:37:50   like there is something to be said for having all the sites talk about it.

01:37:54   You can't get this net, but here's our exclusive look.

01:37:56   you know, here's the red iPhone that you can't get your hands on and here's the Clips

01:38:00   app that, I don't know if anybody has the Clips app, that won't be out until 10.3,

01:38:04   that is another way to build hype, so who knows.

01:38:07   I don't think anyone even has it.

01:38:08   I mean like the reviewers, we at least know like reviewers seem to have red iPhones, but

01:38:13   I don't think, I haven't heard anybody mention that they have the Clips anyway,

01:38:17   it doesn't matter.

01:38:18   Although the Clips app by the way, getting back to that, speaking of playing to their

01:38:20   strengths, the more negative take on playing to your strengths is it is a further emphasis

01:38:26   of your weakness. Because if you had to pick, who do you want to be? The company that is

01:38:31   really good at making a high quality, clever, nice interface, powerful application that

01:38:36   takes advantage of your phone's hardware to make cool videos, or the company that owns

01:38:39   the social network where all those videos will be posted, whether it be Instagram or

01:38:43   Snapchat or whatever. I think Apple would trade in a second to be the company that controls

01:38:49   the social networks because there's more value in being the place where people post all their

01:38:54   their stuff than there is in making the application that lets people post their stuff.

01:38:58   And like when I gave the hierarchy before, I was like, most people are going to use the

01:39:03   app, a second tier is much fewer people who care more about quality will use this thing,

01:39:08   and then a third tier is even fewer people who use professional tools.

01:39:11   So they're not even getting the fat part of that market, right?

01:39:13   I think if they could choose, they would say, "Boy, we really wish we were Instagram," or

01:39:17   "Boy, we really wish we were Snapchat," or whatever.

01:39:19   But they aren't and they can't be and they're bad at that stuff.

01:39:22   So at the very least, this is like when we talk about like, people who say, "Oh, Apple's

01:39:26   good at software and they make good interfaces."

01:39:28   And eventually it's like, "Are they?

01:39:30   What application have they made recently that shows that Apple actually knows how to make

01:39:32   good applications?"

01:39:33   Workflow is an example.

01:39:34   And a phenomenal application, like we get to the point where I feel like the ADA winners

01:39:38   -- I think Workflow won an ADA -- the ADA winners are like, all those applications are

01:39:42   better than what Apple is doing.

01:39:44   Whereas this feels like a return to form, whereas Apple is saying, "The ADAs are for

01:39:49   people making software that we feel like exemplifies the ideals and the APIs that we're promoting

01:39:53   or whatever that we at Apple are interested in. And we at Apple also want to make applications

01:40:01   to that level. And for a long time, it seemed like Apple was no longer able to make really

01:40:05   great applications consistently. And Clips looks like a modern version of a really great

01:40:12   application, rather than being a Mac application or like a pro application. It's like, this

01:40:16   This is an application to do a simple thing.

01:40:18   It's almost like one of the demos that use the W3D.

01:40:20   Say you want to make an application that does video, that lets people make videos for social

01:40:24   services.

01:40:25   What kind of features could you add to it if you took advantage of all our APIs and

01:40:28   could you make a really clever interface and use all our new systems for laying out the

01:40:34   UI and use everything you learned from it?

01:40:36   It looks like a really good third-party application, which at this point is a high compliment for

01:40:42   something that Apple puts out.

01:40:44   Yeah, I'm looking forward to trying this.

01:40:48   And who knows, like I said, if I'll ever use it, but I'm really excited about it.

01:40:51   Yeah, and the application itself, I'm less concerned about whatever.

01:40:55   Maybe no one will ever use it.

01:40:56   But I'm excited to see Apple making really good iOS applications again.

01:41:00   iOS applications that even third-party developers say, "That's a good iOS app."

01:41:04   In the same way we all say that about workflow or whatever.

01:41:07   That's what's encouraging to me about it.

01:41:08   There's not the specifics of, "Oh, you made an app to share video," or whatever.

01:41:12   So I did briefly want to address the other thing

01:41:16   that happened when all these announcements dropped,

01:41:18   which is a bunch of people got really mad

01:41:21   at things that weren't announced.

01:41:23   And I was one of them.

01:41:25   As I mentioned earlier, I was hoping for

01:41:26   a 12-inch MacBook update that didn't happen.

01:41:30   Many people have been waiting for iMac updates

01:41:34   that were supposed to happen last fall, didn't happen.

01:41:37   Lots of people expected the 9.7 and 12.9-inch iPad Pro

01:41:42   iPad Pros to be updated because the 9.7 is due now, the 12.9, assuming it has the same

01:41:48   cycle as the other ones, is now past due by about half a year.

01:41:53   And so a lot of people were mad, you know?

01:41:55   And there was the rumored 10.5 inch iPad.

01:41:57   I think Jon Gruber's take on this on Daring Fireball is probably right, which is like,

01:42:02   it probably never made sense to launch that in the spring.

01:42:05   That sounds more like a, you know, let the iPhone debut the new design language and then

01:42:10   release the iPad afterwards kind of thing.

01:42:12   - Or do them both at once to be a big bang.

01:42:14   - Sure.

01:42:15   - But like, yeah, all sorts of things make more sense

01:42:17   than what was predicted, which was like,

01:42:19   you're gonna get 20 new iPhones in March,

01:42:21   or 20 new iPads in March, and they're gonna be weird sizes

01:42:24   that aren't consistent with each other,

01:42:25   and one of them's gonna be amazing.

01:42:26   It's like, really?

01:42:27   It's not, no.

01:42:28   - Exactly.

01:42:28   - Never sounded right.

01:42:29   - And we keep hearing rumblings too

01:42:31   about major iPad enhancements in iPad productivity,

01:42:35   multitasking, things like that,

01:42:37   major enhancements that were originally supposed

01:42:39   to be coming out about now with iOS 10.3.

01:42:43   And that we've heard recently that those have been delayed

01:42:46   until iOS 11, presumably in the fall.

01:42:50   So if that's the case, it also might make sense

01:42:52   to hold back this new 10 1/2 inch crazy awesome iPad Pro

01:42:56   and maybe an update to the 12.9 as well,

01:42:58   if that's going to happen, to hold those back

01:43:01   until whatever September or October event

01:43:04   is the public launch of iOS 11.

01:43:07   That's usually what they do.

01:43:09   They will show us all at WWDC in the summertime,

01:43:12   like the core features, and then when it comes time

01:43:15   for launch day for that OS in the September or October event

01:43:19   there will be new hardware that makes it even better.

01:43:21   Usually it's an iPhone event, but you know,

01:43:22   as Jon just said, it could be both.

01:43:25   So that makes sense.

01:43:26   But I think the reason why people were so mad,

01:43:28   and still are so mad, is that traditionally

01:43:33   most Apple products have been on a predictable schedule.

01:43:37   You know, like the iPad and iPhone is about one year.

01:43:40   Macs were about one year to maybe 18 months

01:43:43   for most families.

01:43:44   We complain about the Mac Pro,

01:43:46   and people complain about the Mac Mini.

01:43:48   Those have honestly always been on ridiculous schedules.

01:43:50   Usually not this ridiculous,

01:43:51   but like, you know, that's not new for those families.

01:43:54   But like most of Apple's products,

01:43:56   you could pretty much extrapolate

01:43:58   based on their previous release schedules.

01:43:59   Okay, this one will be out in about a year.

01:44:01   This one will be updated in about a year and a half,

01:44:02   et cetera.

01:44:03   And so, even if Apple has said nothing

01:44:06   about future products, which is usually the case.

01:44:09   You, like if you're waiting for an update,

01:44:12   like if you wanna buy an iMac today,

01:44:15   and if you do any research at all,

01:44:17   which many people do, you know,

01:44:18   people in the geek sphere often think that like,

01:44:21   you know, quote normal people just walk into an Apple store

01:44:24   and just buy whatever's there

01:44:24   and they don't do any research, but that's wrong.

01:44:27   A lot of people do research,

01:44:28   and a lot more people than we give credit for

01:44:31   do the kind of research that can tell them like,

01:44:33   you know, I should probably wait and not buy this yet,

01:44:35   because the new one's probably coming soon.

01:44:37   Anyway, so when the product that you're waiting for

01:44:40   is past due for an expected update,

01:44:44   every announcement that Apple makes,

01:44:46   every event they have, every new product release

01:44:49   that passes by that you don't get

01:44:51   the thing you're waiting for,

01:44:52   that feels like a delay,

01:44:54   even though they never said they were gonna release it.

01:44:57   It isn't officially a delay because they never announced it.

01:45:00   But it feels like you were told this,

01:45:03   and you might've even been told that

01:45:04   by Apple experts, by the Apple press, by Apple commentators.

01:45:08   Who, you know, the rest of the year they tell you,

01:45:11   oh you're being impatient, just wait until

01:45:14   WBC or the fall event or the spring event.

01:45:17   Like it's always like, oh just wait 'til the next X.

01:45:20   Just keep waiting, keep waiting.

01:45:21   That's what you're told when you look into

01:45:23   this kind of stuff.

01:45:24   And so when that event comes and goes

01:45:26   and you still don't have your update

01:45:28   that you thought was due,

01:45:29   that feels like something was taken away from you.

01:45:31   It feels like it was delayed,

01:45:32   even though Apple never officially promised it.

01:45:35   And when there's only a couple of products

01:45:38   that are on these delays, like the Mac Pro and the Mac Mini,

01:45:40   well those are always on these delays.

01:45:43   That's no surprise.

01:45:43   But as we mentioned in the past shows,

01:45:47   it does seem like there's more of those product lines

01:45:49   than usual right now.

01:45:51   2016 was an especially bad year.

01:45:53   At least the laptops recovered from that.

01:45:57   That was a big one, but there's still some of these products

01:45:59   like the 12.9 inch iPad that's just kinda sitting around

01:46:01   waiting for an update.

01:46:03   And as I said earlier, I think the new reality

01:46:07   is that there is no Apple product line

01:46:11   except probably the iPhone

01:46:13   that is on a regular schedule anymore.

01:46:16   Every other one, they could've updated it every year

01:46:19   for the last five years and then,

01:46:20   well, now it's on a two year cycle.

01:46:22   Now it's on an 18 month cycle.

01:46:24   We can't depend on that way of predicting

01:46:28   long schedules anymore.

01:46:30   whatever interval they've been on in the past

01:46:32   is now totally irrelevant for possibly every product,

01:46:36   but if not, probably not the iPhone,

01:46:38   but probably everything else.

01:46:40   So there is some speculation there might still be

01:46:43   like an April event.

01:46:45   There was like on the big WWDC wall of text

01:46:49   that was on the big walls downstairs,

01:46:51   there was like, hello April, is it April 18th?

01:46:53   What was the event, what was the date on that?

01:46:54   Do you guys know?

01:46:55   - I don't remember.

01:46:56   I know what you're talking about, but I don't remember.

01:46:58   somewhere in the teens, I think in April,

01:47:00   that was like printed on there as a possible Easter egg.

01:47:02   So there might still be an April event.

01:47:05   Maybe they're gonna be at the new Steve Jobs Theater

01:47:07   on the new Apple Campus, who knows?

01:47:10   But if I had to bet money on it,

01:47:12   I would guess they probably aren't done

01:47:15   announcing things for the spring yet.

01:47:17   Because the other thing is like,

01:47:18   WWDC in recent years has really been

01:47:21   a software-only event for the most part.

01:47:23   There's usually, there's so much to talk about

01:47:27   during that keynote because there is usually

01:47:29   so many changes to iOS, watchOS, tvOS,

01:47:33   like there's so much to cram in there

01:47:36   that they have in recent years been minimizing

01:47:39   or eliminating any kind of hardware release talk

01:47:41   from that keynote.

01:47:43   And they also don't tend to do any other events

01:47:44   in the summertime besides that one

01:47:45   because everyone's on vacation in July and August

01:47:47   and everything, so I'm guessing if they have anything more

01:47:52   to announce before September,

01:47:55   hardware and product-wise, not software-wise,

01:47:58   we're probably gonna still hear about it,

01:47:59   maybe in April, we'll see.

01:48:01   If I had to bet whether or not

01:48:03   they would be an event in April,

01:48:04   right now I'd say probably yes,

01:48:06   but I wouldn't bet Casey five bucks on it.

01:48:09   (laughing)

01:48:10   - You know, it's funny you bring all this up.

01:48:11   I was thinking about this earlier today,

01:48:14   and we've also gotten a couple emails,

01:48:17   and I don't have them in front of me,

01:48:18   but somebody wrote in saying,

01:48:21   "Listing this scenario," I don't know,

01:48:23   maybe five years ago when Snow Leopard was about to come out or something like that.

01:48:27   And you know, hey, here's the scenario. Everyone was upset about A, B, C, D, E, F, and G. We

01:48:31   all thought the world was ending. All the pundits, all the podcasters, everyone thought

01:48:36   the world was ending. Turns out it really wasn't that bad. And yet I left yesterday

01:48:41   -- well, I didn't go anywhere -- but at the end of yesterday, I felt like, man, I don't

01:48:46   know if I was too excited about all this. I knew that clips looked kind of cool, but

01:48:50   rest of it, I just didn't really care. And the first constructive thought I had was,

01:48:56   "Well, it's just that these weren't for me. These announcements weren't for me. It

01:49:00   doesn't make them bad." And in fact, reflecting on them now today with you

01:49:03   guys, they're pretty good, truth be told. But they weren't for me. And most

01:49:08   specifically, I don't have my damn MacBook Adorable Refresh, but that's okay.

01:49:13   But I started thinking, you know, why is it that I feel disappointed about this in a way

01:49:22   that I don't think I would have a few years back?

01:49:25   And I think a lot of it, Marco, was what you said, was that there was a pretty reliable

01:49:30   cadence to how Apple released stuff up until fairly recently, and that's not quite so reliable

01:49:37   anymore, which on the surface I should be excited about, because it means things are

01:49:41   less predictable and more exciting. But I'm not that excited about it because I'm not always

01:49:49   excited about what Apple is releasing anymore. I am always excited about new iPhones because

01:49:54   every single time I think there's been an improvement. But everything else, it's hit or

01:49:58   miss, right? Like, I've not used a touch bar for more than a couple of minutes to this day, but I'm

01:50:03   not overwhelmingly amped to go get myself one. And so I've been trying, and I haven't come to any

01:50:10   great conclusions, but I'm trying to figure out, you know, why am I less excited about

01:50:14   announcements of late than I have been in the past?

01:50:17   And the only other thing I can come to is that I feel like there was always something

01:50:23   in every single product that I could be like, "Holy hell, that looks awesome."

01:50:28   And so maybe a product that I didn't really care about.

01:50:30   So as an example, the 12.9-inch iPad Pro, I don't have any desire for that in my life,

01:50:37   but I can see cool things about it.

01:50:39   Similarly, like the smart keyboard for both sizes.

01:50:41   That's cool.

01:50:42   And that was fairly recent in fairness, but I don't know, I feel like in years past everything

01:50:50   had something really cool about it.

01:50:52   Maybe I'm just becoming a cynical old man, and maybe that's the problem, but I'm just

01:50:56   less excited about it.

01:50:57   And I think a lot of that is the cadence, some of that is that these products just may

01:51:02   not be for me anymore.

01:51:05   And maybe I just gotta get okay with that.

01:51:09   - You know what still is possibly for you?

01:51:12   - What?

01:51:12   - The MacBook Escape, man.

01:51:13   It's a really good computer.

01:51:15   (laughing)

01:51:16   I think.

01:51:16   Ask me in a few weeks.

01:51:17   - Yeah, yeah, I'll ask you in, what, 15 days after delivery.

01:51:22   - If it's not a really good computer,

01:51:23   I might have a MacBook Escape to sell you.

01:51:26   - Yeah, funny how that works.

01:51:27   - So for people being angry about this,

01:51:29   I think it's what we talked about a lot

01:51:33   of the other announcements where it's like,

01:51:34   is not so much about what's announced as just like sort of simmering desire slash resentment

01:51:40   for things that aren't getting updated. And so every time something happens and it doesn't

01:51:44   include the thing you want, it just makes you angrier. But everyone knew this was going

01:51:47   to be like, there was no event where people were going out to sit in a room to listen

01:51:51   to someone talk. This was a press release only thing, right? It wasn't like they had

01:51:55   everyone come out to a location. So everyone knows when it's a press release only thing,

01:52:00   lesser stuff. The idea that they would release a new 10.5 inch iPad, you know,

01:52:05   with an entirely new physical design, without calling a bunch of press to come

01:52:10   to a room and sit there and get a presentation, like, that's not, you know,

01:52:14   the amount of ceremony surrounding the announcements matches the

01:52:22   magnitude of the announcements. So this is going to be, hey, it's just gonna be

01:52:25   a bunch of press releases and some journalists will get briefed in various

01:52:29   locations, but we're not gathering everybody into a room, we're not doing a live stream

01:52:32   or whatever, you know what's the caliber of the stuff that's going to be there. So being

01:52:36   disappointed that you didn't even get like a MacBook refresh, I mean, it's conceivable

01:52:39   that you could have got a MacBook refresh with this caliber of announcement. But what

01:52:44   I don't think is that it doesn't actually reset. Like, oh, now, now it's almost like

01:52:48   a delay, because they're not going to have event right after this. I think it's entirely

01:52:51   conceivable that they could have, here's the press release only stuff. And then here's

01:52:56   an event where we actually invite people out in the near future that it doesn't push any

01:53:00   future announcements out at all because very often they have the thing where they dump

01:53:05   a bunch of pre-announcements and press releases. Sometimes they do it like the day before,

01:53:09   like the real event where actual, you know, people sit in a room and get it, get a little

01:53:12   song and dance from Apple. Right. So, um, I totally understand the idea that like every

01:53:18   time Apple says anything and it doesn't include the thing that you think should be coming,

01:53:22   that it's painful, but the actual things

01:53:27   that were announced here all seemed fine.

01:53:28   And I actually don't think it pushes anything back.

01:53:31   It doesn't mean that there's an imminent announcement

01:53:33   or anything, you can still be cranky about the fact

01:53:35   that the iPad Pro does need an update and hasn't got one.

01:53:38   And when is it gonna come?

01:53:39   And if it doesn't come in April,

01:53:40   does that mean I have to wait till the end of the year

01:53:41   to receive like, you can continue to be sad about that.

01:53:43   But honestly, like, I guess it's just people getting

01:53:46   over the idea that the iPad Pro might not be updated

01:53:50   every time there are obvious technology upgrades to it.

01:53:53   Like you would think, oh, well, surely the big iPad Pro

01:53:55   will get the True Tone screen now that the small one has it.

01:53:57   And you wait and wait and wait,

01:53:59   but you know, talk to Mac Pro people about waiting.

01:54:01   Like you're cranky 'cause you're like,

01:54:02   it's one year, come on, chop chop.

01:54:04   And like one year, haha, so young, so young.

01:54:07   At least your product will still be released.

01:54:11   - Thanks to our three sponsors this week,

01:54:12   HelloFresh, Squarespace, and Fracture.

01:54:15   And we will see you next week.

01:54:17   (upbeat music)

01:54:20   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:54:24   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:54:27   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:54:30   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:54:35   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:54:38   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:54:41   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:54:46   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:54:50   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:54:55   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:54:59   Auntie Marco Arment

01:55:02   S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:55:06   It's accidental

01:55:10   They didn't mean to

01:55:12   Accidental

01:55:15   We have important after show facts about APFS.

01:55:22   I know you guys are dying for an exciting after show on that topic.

01:55:26   Oh my god, I'm so ready.

01:55:27   What mailing list is this on?

01:55:29   This is on one of Apple's mailing lists.

01:55:33   People complaining about bugs being closed about APFS on iOS, obviously, because it's

01:55:38   not out officially for the Mac.

01:55:41   Actually, it's still beta for iOS, too.

01:55:43   The bug was closed with this explanation.

01:55:45   IOS HFS normalization and Unicode names --

01:55:49   IOS HFS normalized Unicode names,

01:55:52   which, as we know, like, they folded it all

01:55:53   into a particular normalization of their thing.

01:55:55   And so that's why you would --

01:55:56   no matter how you entered the file name,

01:55:58   it would all fold it into a particular form.

01:56:00   So you could only have one file named "cafe"

01:56:01   with an "en" accent on the end, no matter how you encoded it,

01:56:04   because you can write that in 20 different ways in Unicode

01:56:07   with combining characters and stuff.

01:56:08   APFS now treats all files as a bag of bytes on IOS.

01:56:13   And so they closed it as closing the bug report.

01:56:15   So if you use Apple's APIs, you don't care about this

01:56:19   because it does all that sort of normalization for you.

01:56:21   But if you use the direct file system APIs

01:56:23   for like the BSD, you know, the Unix layer,

01:56:25   it is, APFS behaves like a plain old Unix file system,

01:56:29   which is basically give me a buffer full of bytes

01:56:33   and I will write that to the part of the file system

01:56:35   that says it's supposed to hold the file name.

01:56:37   And that's it.

01:56:39   So if you want to write one file name in UTF-32,

01:56:44   and one file name in ASCII,

01:56:46   and one file name in UTF-8 in a particular normalization,

01:56:50   I'm just a file system, man.

01:56:51   You just gave me a sequence of bytes.

01:56:52   When you ask me later what the name of this file is,

01:56:54   I'm going to give you that sequence of bytes back.

01:56:56   I hope you know what encoding it's in.

01:56:57   Good luck.

01:56:58   Which is exactly how I believe Linus Torvalds

01:57:02   of Linux fame really wished HFS+ behaved

01:57:05   because he hated the fact that it did normalization.

01:57:07   He said, "Just take the bytes that I give you

01:57:09   and stick them in your file system.

01:57:11   That is apparently how APFS works.

01:57:13   And I filed a bug on this as well to say, look,

01:57:15   I don't know if this is a bug or a feature,

01:57:17   but HFS+ do behave this way, and your new replacement

01:57:21   behaves that way.

01:57:22   And it seems to me that could possibly

01:57:23   cause some incompatibilities down the line.

01:57:26   So is this something you intended to do or what?

01:57:29   And I don't remember what the status of that bug is,

01:57:31   but this bug report, if it is to be

01:57:33   believed that this radar that was closed is like on iOS

01:57:36   anyway, this is totally what we meant.

01:57:38   It's now just the bag of bytes.

01:57:39   Use our APIs, you'll be fine.

01:57:43   But it certainly simplifies the file system

01:57:45   because the file system no longer needs to be concerned

01:57:48   about what the heck is in the file names.

01:57:51   It's just a big data buffer,

01:57:53   and everything else is handled at a higher level,

01:57:55   and arguably that is a cleaner layering,

01:57:57   but it is a definite break with how it was done before.

01:58:00   So be careful out there.

01:58:02   - Wow.

01:58:04   So are you excited for APFS?

01:58:08   I know we've talked about this in the past, but sitting here now, it seems like you're

01:58:12   keeping up with it at least a little bit.

01:58:15   I'm excited for it.

01:58:16   I'm a little bit worried about compatibility things because of this encoding issue, and

01:58:20   I'm a little bit worried about bugs and stuff, but I want a new file system and I'm getting

01:58:24   one.

01:58:25   And I still think about it and get sad about the lack of data integrity features and stuff

01:58:29   like that, but there are enough new interesting features that I'm still excited for it.

01:58:34   I just do worry about, you know, maybe I'll just like,

01:58:38   I should really upgrade my Synology to BTRFS,

01:58:40   which it now actually supports with the new thing,

01:58:43   but I don't know a way to do it in place

01:58:45   and I don't have any place to copy all this data off to

01:58:47   and put it back on except for the network.

01:58:48   And so, I don't know.

01:58:49   Anyway, I would like it if my backups at least

01:58:53   were someplace where I knew that they were not bit rotting.

01:58:57   I'll just continue to have to sort of bury my head

01:58:58   in the sand about the state of the data on my actual Macs

01:59:01   because APFS is not helping me there.

01:59:04   Alright, titles. What is it that you and I suggested simultaneously? Oh, Christmas phone.

01:59:09   Yeah, that was it. What was the shoelace thing? I've already lost the thread on the... What

01:59:14   was the analogy? Lost the thread? Hey! What was the analogy for the shoelace? Oh, it was

01:59:17   the MacBook Pro, like once you had to reformat it, right? Okay. Yeah, because if you listen

01:59:21   to analog, Jon, you would know the story of my... I know the shoelace story! I've heard

01:59:25   that episode! Stop it! Heard that episode! You can jump in anytime, Jon. You don't have

01:59:30   to go to the back catalog. Everyone knows the shoelace story. And if you didn't hear

01:59:35   it in analog, you can hear Mike talk about it on 8,000 other episodes of other shows,

01:59:38   so it's not like you can avoid the shoelace. But he told it the best with me, dammit. I

01:59:41   know. I heard it first there. I still like Christmas phone, although Span Across My Leg

01:59:46   Gap actually is starting to edge that out. I don't like Leg Gap. What was the--shoelace

01:59:51   is rising. This is my shoelace, is rising in my-- Oh, boo. Plus then I gotta hear Mike

01:59:57   talk about how awesome he is for inspiring the title and I don't want to deal with that.

02:00:01   But he is that awesome because that was an amazing story.

02:00:04   But we don't need to tell him that. We don't need to give him that moment.

02:00:08   What is he doing with the shoelaces that they're breaking? That's my real question. I can't

02:00:12   remember the last time I had a shoelace break. Like, is he being very rough with them? Is

02:00:15   he rubbing his shoe against something and they're fraying? Like, whose shoelaces break?

02:00:19   Maybe the style in Great Britain is to have really tightly laced shoes. Like, to really

02:00:23   tighten them up, you know?

02:00:24   It's just very thin. I don't know. It's it's it's a suspicious story

02:00:27   My shoelace just broke as I pulled really hard snap. Oh, I can't I have to quit my job now

02:00:33   We should check check his lightning cables, how are they doing?

02:00:40   If I if I replace this lightning cable, I'm I'll just use this iPad Pro for another year

02:00:49   [BLANK_AUDIO]