213: Siri in a Can


00:00:00   We're gonna have this exact same conversation about the goddamn Mac Pro whenever that gets refreshed.

00:00:04   We have much more conversation.

00:00:06   It's not gonna be a new Mac Pro, it's just gonna be a fancier iMac, it'll be a short conversation.

00:00:10   It'll be fine, and we'll buy one anyway, and that'll be that.

00:00:13   I agree with most of what you just said, except it'll be a short conversation.

00:00:16   Yeah, thank you, Marco. Completely agree.

00:00:19   It'll last a show or two, I'm just saying, it's not like we're gonna be obsessing over it.

00:00:22   A show or two? It'll last a month or two!

00:00:24   Well, I guess what we'll do is we'll go back to talking about the Mac Pro and they're like, okay fine

00:00:28   So they did this iMac thing

00:00:30   But now let's complain more about why they should actually do a real Mac Pro remember when they used to sell a professional computer

00:00:35   15 shows later. So I think we finally wrap that up

00:00:39   But we won't be talking about the iMac the iMac Pro will be will take care of in a show or two

00:00:45   That's true. And then and then one more show when we all get ours, but then mostly we'll go back to complaining about it

00:00:50   Seriously, you're not really making the Mac Pro anymore, especially if they don't say they're not making and they keep selling the old one

00:00:55   That'll be awesome. They come up with the new iMac at WWDC

00:00:57   It's got a Z on it, but they keep selling the old Mac Pro. It'll be like, what are you doing?

00:01:01   What is it going through your head? Here's a question. Do you think on?

00:01:05   January 1st 2018 the 2013 Mac Pro will still be for sale. No, absolutely not. I vote yes. I

00:01:15   I would, if I had to pick I would vote no, but it's not as big of a, it's not as sure

00:01:20   of a thing as I would hope it would be as I think about it.

00:01:22   You want to bet five bucks?

00:01:24   I'm not betting you any money.

00:01:27   I'm guessing January 1st, 2018 it's still for sale.

00:01:30   I'll take your five dollar bet.

00:01:32   Yeah, all right, it's a deal.

00:01:34   Because I think it's close.

00:01:35   That's why it's an interesting bet.

00:01:36   Because I think they'll introduce an iMac Pro and they'll be like, "And this is the

00:01:40   replacement for the Mac Pro."

00:01:42   That's how I think it will be positioned,

00:01:43   and it will finally give them cover

00:01:45   to can that stupid machine, to can the can.

00:01:47   - So my primary bet is that this is still for sale,

00:01:52   that the 2013 Trash Can Mac Pro is still for sale

00:01:55   on January 1st.

00:01:57   My secondary bet, which I guess I probably

00:01:59   won't put money on, but my secondary bet

00:02:02   is that during the entire year of 2017,

00:02:04   they won't actually address this issue publicly.

00:02:07   They won't even say anything of substance

00:02:10   about any kind of future Pro desktop hardware.

00:02:13   That basically, this year will come and go

00:02:16   with no changes to the Mac Pro

00:02:18   in either the product line or in announcements.

00:02:21   - But what if they make an iMac Pro,

00:02:22   does that count as them saying something?

00:02:25   - I think only if they discontinue the Mac Pro.

00:02:27   - But what if they say, "This is our new version

00:02:29   "for Pro hardware blah blah blah,"

00:02:30   but then also keep selling it for the same reason

00:02:31   they keep selling everything

00:02:32   'cause someone new somewhere wants to buy it?

00:02:34   - Well, I'd still win the primary bet in that case.

00:02:36   The secondary bet of whether they have done this,

00:02:38   I guess would depend on like, it'd be a little bit vague,

00:02:41   it'd be like, is it just like the same processor lines,

00:02:44   like the Intel 6700K, whatever.

00:02:47   - If it has the word pro in the name,

00:02:49   like it's clear what they're talking about is, you know.

00:02:51   - But if it's still pretty much an iMac,

00:02:54   it would need like a Xeon, and not an E3.

00:02:58   The E3 does not count as a Xeon.

00:02:59   - Is there an eight core non-Xeon Intel thing?

00:03:03   - No, in the future, I think Tipster said a while,

00:03:06   but like one of the various lakes, coffee or whatever,

00:03:08   one of those, they're supposed to be a six core variant

00:03:11   in the series, but if there is like a quote iMac Pro,

00:03:15   but it still has the same consumer processor line,

00:03:18   that doesn't count to me, that's just an iMac.

00:03:21   And yet, 'cause the iMac is fine, the iMac is great,

00:03:23   I'm using one now, like there's a lot of reasons

00:03:24   to have an iMac, but they can tack Pro on the end

00:03:28   and sell it in space gray and charge more,

00:03:31   but if it doesn't have a Xeon E5 in there,

00:03:33   that's not a Mac Pro.

00:03:35   I will argue about it later, but I'm going to bed.

00:03:37   - You Mac Pro'd him out, that's it.

00:03:39   - Yep, I am tuckered out on the Mac Pro.

00:03:41   - It doesn't take much to be fair.

00:03:43   - No, it doesn't.

00:03:44   (electronic music)

00:03:46   So as always, we start with follow up,

00:03:47   and Lucas Goosen, I need to look these up before I record.

00:03:52   That's okay though.

00:03:53   Lucas G., right?

00:03:54   He cited an existing app,

00:03:57   and we are not going to name that app,

00:03:59   that is currently on the iOS App Store,

00:04:02   that actually has overlapping windows,

00:04:04   Colin Allen also wrote in to say that when he was working at Blackboard, they shipped a multi-window

00:04:10   iPad app with gestures. Now, this is a long time ago, from what I can tell. So in Allen's defense,

00:04:16   this UI was was modern at the time. Looking at it now is mildly alarming. But there are things that

00:04:25   are multi-window on the iPad that exist either in the past or today. So does that change how you

00:04:33   feel about things in any way shape or form, Jon?

00:04:36   No, because everyone knows there's always things on the App Store that violate guidelines.

00:04:40   Like, that's the whole point of the App Store guidelines. If you try to do the little kid thing,

00:04:44   "Why does my sister get to have a lollipop?" Yes, there are going to be applications that

00:04:51   somehow got by that didn't get flagged and yours gets flagged. Your argument is always with the

00:04:56   rule system and not with people who happen to have skated by. I mean, pick a guideline. I guarantee

00:05:01   you can find multiple applications on the App Star that violate that guideline.

00:05:05   That's just the way it is.

00:05:06   But anyway, I like seeing these examples of applications that actually shipped in this

00:05:09   way and the world didn't come to an end and also apparently it was not a UI paradigm that

00:05:15   was copied by lots of other applications.

00:05:16   So I'm not quite sure how successful it was, but I like the idea that a few of them snuck

00:05:20   through.

00:05:21   I like this better than the idea of millions of apps that send you spam push notifications

00:05:27   sneaking through, quote unquote.

00:05:29   (laughs)

00:05:31   - All right, and then a friend of the show,

00:05:33   Stephen Tran Smith, has put together a Swift playground

00:05:37   that will let you try the floating keyboard on an iPad.

00:05:42   So you would use the Swift playgrounds app on the iPad

00:05:46   and run the code that he has put on GitHub, I believe.

00:05:49   I intended to try this and then completely forgot about it.

00:05:53   But anyway, you can download this,

00:05:54   drop it in Swift playgrounds and give it a shot.

00:05:57   Have either of you tried this?

00:05:59   >> See, I really wish I had, but it slipped my mind.

00:06:02   John?

00:06:03   >> This is what they get for adding anything resembling a programming environment to iOS,

00:06:07   because someone's like, "You know what you can do with a programming language?

00:06:10   You can write programs."

00:06:12   And you know what those programs do?

00:06:13   They execute on your device without going app review, just as if I had uploaded them

00:06:16   from Xcode.

00:06:17   But I don't have to do that, because I don't have Xcode.

00:06:18   I just run this playgrounds file, and so this is all of Apple's worst fears coming true.

00:06:23   Oh, no, selector swizzling and private APIs.

00:06:26   What will happen?

00:06:27   Nothing will happen is the answer.

00:06:28   Although I suppose you could probably, you think you could probably, you know, trigger

00:06:33   a bug to, you know, I guess you could crash the app obviously, but crashing playgrounds

00:06:39   may not be such an achievement.

00:06:40   But could you bring down the whole OS by finding some kind of bug or doing something nasty

00:06:47   to it?

00:06:48   Anyway, that's what programming is, and this is a fun way for people to try it to see if

00:06:52   this little keyboard is worth anything.

00:06:54   It's kind of weird because you'd want to use it with thumbs like you would on a phone,

00:06:58   But you can't reach it with both your thumbs on an iPad.

00:07:01   Like that's the whole deal.

00:07:02   That it is a tiny little floating keyboard that you can move where you want it to, where

00:07:05   you want to put it so it can be out of the way and not take up so much screen space.

00:07:09   But you can't type on it with two thumbs.

00:07:13   Maybe if you put it in the corner.

00:07:14   I don't know.

00:07:15   There's no way to use it like you use it on your phone.

00:07:17   Although I know a lot of people, myself included, who frequently type with a single thumb on

00:07:22   their phones.

00:07:23   You ever do that?

00:07:24   Where like your one hand is occupied and you're texting something with a single thumb?

00:07:28   I'm okay at it.

00:07:29   Yeah, I wish I was.

00:07:31   The swipe keyboards, I haven't used one in a while.

00:07:33   In fact, I just took that keyboard off my phone because I use it so rarely.

00:07:36   But the swipe style keyboards, and I think Google's keyboard, Gboard or whatever it's

00:07:41   called, supports this.

00:07:42   The swipe style keyboards are very good for one-handed use, but I find that I don't use

00:07:47   it often enough that I just made it go away.

00:07:50   I think I have inappropriate thumb friction for a swipe keyboard because every time I

00:07:55   I try them I can't I can't find the right balance of enough pressure to be swiping correctly

00:08:01   but not too much pressure that I'm like scrubbing my thumb against like it just I

00:08:06   Need to tap item. I'm not a swiper. I remember seeing demos of those keyboard like wow. This is awesome

00:08:11   Look at that little line darting from key to key

00:08:13   But then when it comes time for my big meaty thumb to do that at this it's it's hopeless

00:08:18   So more power to you if it works for you, but I cannot get the swiping to work for me

00:08:22   Oh my word. I don't even know what to make about this.

00:08:26   We should just move on. Jon, can you tell us about Apple in Education?

00:08:29   Got a lot of feedback from people, basically people in education, people who are either

00:08:33   teachers or school administrators or people who do IT in education. I tried to pull a

00:08:41   few salient points out because a lot of people had very complicated detailed stories about

00:08:45   their one situation, but I'm trying to generalize here. So one theme I saw in a lot of the email

00:08:50   was the recent, in recent years, push for one device per student, which was not a thing

00:08:55   when any of us were in school, like that, not just in the super rich schools, but then

00:08:59   in all schools, the ideal is when we're going to buy any kind of computing hardware for

00:09:04   students, we want to have one for every single student, which was just not an option in our

00:09:08   days because you'd have a computer lab and like each classroom would have like one iMac

00:09:12   or two iMacs or something like that, you know, one computer for every student.

00:09:15   That wasn't really feasible when computers came with gigantic CRTs and took up a huge

00:09:20   amount of room, but now that they're all really small and portable and cheaper, you can pull

00:09:25   that off.

00:09:26   So the one device per student accounts for an increase in overall volume of computing

00:09:31   things that schools buy, which is good for Google in this case because they're selling

00:09:36   most of them.

00:09:37   We had one report of technology getting more funding than less sexy areas like music and

00:09:45   arts which are you know perennially underfunded because tech is sexy.

00:09:50   I think one of you brought this up in the last show like the idea that there's money

00:09:53   to buy computer stuff because everyone agrees that computers are the future and our kids

00:09:58   need computers and like I mean obviously they're the present now but when we were kids it was

00:10:02   like oh everyone's gonna learn computers because it's the future and if we get computers in

00:10:05   our school everyone feels good about it even though we're not entirely sure if these computers

00:10:09   make education better in any possible way but hey at least kids will know computers.

00:10:13   There's still some of that in there and it's exciting for all the kids in your school to,

00:10:17   you know, get iPads or get laptops or anything like that.

00:10:22   And we had a couple of people tell us that although Apple no longer makes education-only

00:10:28   models like the big ugly tooth and the EMAC and stuff like that, they do have special

00:10:36   configurations of existing devices that like you can't buy in the store but only available

00:10:41   for education.

00:10:42   also do a thing where they continue to sell devices in education even after they're no

00:10:47   longer for sale to consumers. I think the last time I remember them doing that in a

00:10:50   big way was the iPad 2 that was like gone for everybody but education could still buy

00:10:54   it. So they're still trying to do what they can to give education, there's no real nice

00:10:59   way to say this, but like the cheaper, crappier models because every, even the education only

00:11:06   models, like how are they different from the regular ones? They were cheaper, which is

00:11:09   important, but they were also crappier because how do you get them cheaper? You make them

00:11:12   crappier and it always struck me as like a weird bargain because

00:11:16   do you want to give a ram starved computer to a school is a school the best equipped to

00:11:24   wrangle a computer that is constantly running out of RAM especially in the bad old days without it without even any virtual memory on on max or

00:11:31   Without a good virtual memory system anyway, that's less of a concern these days

00:11:35   But just to down spec so badly and then put those machines into an environment

00:11:39   where

00:11:41   The people available to like baby them and coax every ounce of performance out of them

00:11:47   like it's not that they don't have time for that.

00:11:49   It's much better to give them a computer that sort of works without anyone having to

00:11:54   mess with it and if you de-content a computer to use car parlance that's a bad situation.

00:12:00   But that's what they want.

00:12:01   They want it to be as cheap as possible so Apple will make them very cheap models and

00:12:05   now Apple will keep selling you devices long after no person should ever be using them

00:12:09   but I guess schools will.

00:12:10   I mean, again, I look at the laptop cart into my kid's elementary school, filled with ice

00:12:15   books.

00:12:16   How old are those?

00:12:17   How old is the white plastic iBook?

00:12:19   That's an old machine.

00:12:20   Like, it was a great machine when it was available, and apparently it was good for education because

00:12:24   they aren't all dead, right?

00:12:25   I don't know how sturdy.

00:12:26   I mean, I'm assuming they're all, like, terribly yellowed and stained and gross from, you know,

00:12:30   kids touching them because it was plastic, but, you know, computers last as long as...

00:12:38   Until they break, because why would you get rid of them?

00:12:39   and they could just continue to try to find something useful to do with them.

00:12:42   And on that front, by the way, in terms of tech funding and everything, I live in a place

00:12:48   full of rich people, and we have high taxes and we vote ourselves.

00:12:52   We have laws in the books that say we can't raise taxes more than X percent per year,

00:12:56   and every year they have a vote to say, "If you really want to raise taxes on yourself,

00:13:00   vote for this," and every year we vote for it, to bypass the thing, to raise our taxes

00:13:04   even more.

00:13:05   And despite all that, our public schools, you go into them and from the standards of

00:13:10   my own childhood, they're woefully underfunded in every single aspect.

00:13:15   Large class sizes, facilities all falling apart, and the vast majority of the computing

00:13:20   technology that arrives in the school on a yearly basis is paid for entirely out of the

00:13:23   pocket of parents giving money to the school, like voluntarily themselves, just funding

00:13:29   like that.

00:13:30   That says more about the state of public education funding in our country than it does about

00:13:37   things in tech.

00:13:38   But comparing it to my childhood when there was a computer lab with a small number of

00:13:42   computers and my kids' experience in school where there are more computers but that all

00:13:48   of them had to be bought by the rich parents of the students who go to the school, it certainly

00:13:53   doesn't seem like we are in an age where it is accepted that schools will all have one

00:13:58   device per student everyone will have, at least in elementary school, will have computers

00:14:01   for everyone available. It's like, "Oh, you'll have computers if you live in a place where

00:14:04   all the parents have enough disposable income to each give hundreds of dollars to the school

00:14:07   each year." It's the same way we got a new playground, by the way. "Oh, collect money

00:14:11   from all the rich parents." And, you know, we're glad to do it because our kids are going

00:14:14   there and we have the money and we pay for it, but it seems like the wrong way to fund

00:14:18   public education. Anyway, that's really off topic.

00:14:23   It's funny. I probably have told this story once before, but to just reiterate how terrible

00:14:26   public education is even in relatively affluent areas. I grew up in Fairfield County, Connecticut,

00:14:33   which at the time, because of other areas of the county, was I believe the most affluent

00:14:38   county in the entire country. I lived in a very unremarkable part of it, so it was not

00:14:44   quite the same for me, but certainly it was a fairly homogeneous, relatively affluent

00:14:51   area. And every year, probably about three quarters of the way through the year, our

00:14:56   copier paper, our Xerox paper, was perforated in a very weird way. And curiously, every

00:15:01   single page we got said Danbury Hospital Radiology Department on the bottom of it. And that's

00:15:07   because the only way we could have copier paper, the only way we could afford it is

00:15:10   if the local hospital donated it to us. And it was, I guess, their leftover that they

00:15:16   had had perforated in a particular way for their particular use. But we just rolled with

00:15:20   it because what other choice did we have? And unlike you guys who are, I guess, better

00:15:24   than we were at the time, we would beg to raise taxes just the teeniest, littlest bit

00:15:30   to give the schools a little breathing room and every time it was shot down. And even

00:15:33   as a kid, it drove me bananas. I don't know. Marco, you're only like a year away from dealing

00:15:39   with this, right?

00:15:40   Yeah. I mean, kindergarten starts this fall for our kid. So here we go. Have you, for

00:15:45   For preschool or for daycare, have you, have they, probably not because that's like privately

00:15:49   funded but kindergarten, to see if this is like a nationwide thing or just in certain

00:15:54   areas, I was surprised when I first could enter kindergarten that one of the things

00:15:58   that teachers would ask for is paper towels and tissues and things like that.

00:16:04   It seemed like staples of the classroom, like, "Hey parents," like when I was a kid, when

00:16:08   the teachers asked the parents for anything, it was, "Hey parents, have your kids bring

00:16:12   in some canned food for a food drive for the needy, right?

00:16:16   Instead, my experience with my own children is, "Hey, parents, please bring in boxes

00:16:20   of tissues because if you don't, there will be no tissues in the classroom because we

00:16:23   have no money for them."

00:16:25   Which is like, "Seriously?"

00:16:26   These are not frills.

00:16:27   Like, "Oh, we want to buy a fancy new iMac every year."

00:16:30   It's like, we need literal tissues for kids with boogery noses in kindergarten and there

00:16:35   is no money to pay for them.

00:16:37   Like, we can put a building that keeps the rain out and we can keep the temperature vaguely

00:16:41   within human habitable range, but beyond that, you know, you're on your own, so it's time

00:16:46   for everyone to pitch in and make sure that we have tissues and paper towels for kids

00:16:50   in the class.

00:16:51   Yeah, that's, teachers still buy a lot more than most people know or expect. Teachers

00:16:57   still buy these kind of supplies out of their own pocket. It's kind of horrible. You know,

00:17:02   teachers all know this, and families of teachers all know this, but most people don't, and

00:17:07   kind of sad and you know because it's not like teachers are paid a lot to begin with

00:17:11   so like you have these jobs that are already not paid you know what they're worth and then

00:17:16   you have the teachers having to buy like basic supplies for their classroom out of their

00:17:19   own pockets that that seems so incredibly wrong to me.

00:17:23   Yeah, but yeah for those that don't know Erin was a high school teacher in a reasonably

00:17:29   affluent area of Richmond until she had Declan and it was expected that at all grade levels

00:17:36   every single teacher, and so this is every high school teacher you have, will send home

00:17:41   a list, and there was a term for it, and for the life of me I can't remember what the name

00:17:45   of it was, but they would send home a list of supplies that every student was expected

00:17:49   to get. So every student was expected to bring Aaron like one pack of tissues and one set

00:17:56   of like whiteboard markers, because they didn't have blackboards, they had whiteboards, and

00:18:01   like a handful of other things. And this was not unusual. This was expected. And our schools,

00:18:06   far as I can tell, are reasonably well-funded. I mean, it's not the utter disaster that

00:18:12   is happening in many, many, many parts of the country, but even still, there's so

00:18:18   big a discrepancy between what teachers need and what teachers can provide and what the

00:18:23   schools can provide that they would have the parents bring all this stuff in, too. It was

00:18:27   totally bananas, but it's what they had to do.

00:18:32   We are sponsored this week by Eero.

00:18:33   Visit eero.com for more info.

00:18:36   Eero is the solution to mediocre home Wi-Fi coverage.

00:18:41   Because let's face it,

00:18:42   we have so many Wi-Fi devices these days.

00:18:44   Now we have, beyond our computers and phones,

00:18:48   we have speakers, thermostats, light bulbs,

00:18:50   everything all over our smart homes now.

00:18:52   And Wi-Fi just doesn't reach most of your home

00:18:56   if you only have one regular router.

00:18:58   Eero is designed to change all of this.

00:19:00   Eero manufactures a single device, it's a small box,

00:19:03   about the size of an Apple TV,

00:19:05   and it serves as a wireless router.

00:19:07   And with a dead simple app,

00:19:08   you can put multiple Eeros throughout your home.

00:19:11   They sell them in sets.

00:19:12   You can just buy one if you want to,

00:19:14   but you're really getting the biggest benefit

00:19:15   if you have two or three.

00:19:17   The first one replaces your existing router.

00:19:19   You just plug your ethernet wiring into it

00:19:21   from your DSL modem or your cable modem.

00:19:23   And additional Eeros, you just plug 'em in

00:19:25   for a standard power outlet.

00:19:27   And then they connect wirelessly to each other

00:19:29   to form a mesh network that blankets your home

00:19:31   in fast, reliable WiFi.

00:19:34   A distributed system like this is way better

00:19:36   than just having one router with a whole bunch

00:19:38   of antennas on top of it.

00:19:40   Or any kind of traditional range extenders,

00:19:42   Eero's actually better because it creates

00:19:44   a separate network to talk to the other Eero routers on,

00:19:48   which is way faster, and it doesn't have nearly

00:19:51   as much of a speed hit as a typical range extender.

00:19:55   They recommend one Eero per roughly every thousand

00:19:58   square feet of your house.

00:19:59   So the average US home, you need probably two or three

00:20:01   of them, a three pack is a great starting point.

00:20:04   Check it out today, there's a 30 day money back guarantee.

00:20:07   So if you end up having too many, if you don't need,

00:20:10   let's say you buy the three pack, you only need two,

00:20:12   within 30 days you can just return the extra one

00:20:13   and you'll get part of your money back.

00:20:16   Eero has been reviewed and seen on tons of press outlets,

00:20:19   Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The Verge, TechCrunch,

00:20:21   everywhere, they have a massively great star rating

00:20:23   on Amazon right now, it's like four and a half stars

00:20:25   on Amazon, you will see for yourself.

00:20:28   And they did something cool here.

00:20:29   They know that if I just tell you to go to their site

00:20:32   and enter a promo code, there's a good chance

00:20:34   you're gonna buy it from Amazon or something anyway.

00:20:36   So there's no more promo code.

00:20:38   Everyone gets the same low prices now.

00:20:39   The three pack is now $100 off, permanently lowered,

00:20:43   from $49 to $399.

00:20:45   So now for just 400 bucks, you get a three pack of these.

00:20:48   If you only need two of them, that's just 300 bucks now,

00:20:50   50 bucks less than it was before.

00:20:52   To get Eero at this new low price,

00:20:53   you can visit eero.com, that's E-E-R-O.com,

00:20:56   or you can just go to Best Buyer Amazon

00:20:57   if you wanna do that too and buy them there.

00:20:59   Check it out today, Eero, E-E-R-O.

00:21:01   Thank you very much to Eero

00:21:02   for sponsoring our show once again.

00:21:04   (upbeat music)

00:21:07   - There was a video that came out, I don't know,

00:21:10   at this point it was probably almost a month ago,

00:21:12   maybe it was a couple weeks ago at the very least.

00:21:14   And it's--

00:21:14   - ATP, bringing you cutting edge news.

00:21:16   (laughing)

00:21:17   - As we always do.

00:21:19   And this is at apple.com/ios/home.

00:21:22   There'll be a link in the show notes.

00:21:23   this is the HomeKit demo promo commercially video thing. And I watched it once when it first came out

00:21:31   and I haven't seen it since, but the general gist of it was there's a young woman who wakes up and

00:21:36   has her breakfast, which is all automated, and leaves the house, which is all automated,

00:21:40   and then eventually comes home, which is all automated, and watches a movie, which is all

00:21:43   automated, and reads in bed, which is, I guess, reading in bed, and then turns off her lights,

00:21:47   which is automated. And it's all amazing and perfect in every way. And as someone who

00:21:53   doesn't really do any of the robots in a cylinder sort of thing.

00:21:59   This looked pretty impressive to me.

00:22:01   It looked cool.

00:22:02   I can't say that I have the fate.

00:22:04   I mean, I don't know where I would even get a HomeKit powered thing.

00:22:07   As far as I'm concerned, they're still all but vaporware.

00:22:10   But apparently they exist because they're all in this lady's house.

00:22:13   So I don't know.

00:22:15   There's been a little bit of chatter about this.

00:22:17   Do you want to tell us about it, Jon?

00:22:19   This is a tweet from Scott McNulty on Twitter.

00:22:22   I'm not sure if he has all these devices. I know he's got a million Kindles, but I'm

00:22:26   not sure if he has all this other stuff. But anyway, he tweeted about it, about this new

00:22:29   website that Apple has to promote HomeKit. It was a nice website, but the film just showcases

00:22:33   to me how much easier it is to tell Alexa to do all the same things. Because the video

00:22:38   shows, for the most part, the person touching big rounded rectangles on iOS devices, whether

00:22:46   they be iPads or phone, to do things. There is, hey, see, good morning at the very beginning,

00:22:52   speaking to your phone that's on your nightstand and having it set your thing up for the morning,

00:22:56   and also later speaking directly into the tiny, horrible Apple TV remote to say, "Okay,

00:23:02   it's movie time to start a movie." Although I'm not quite sure what it does if you just

00:23:05   say it's movie time to pick a random movie. Anyway, those are both examples of speaking


00:23:13   Good morning. It's 9.27 PM.

00:23:15   What – I knew I shouldn't have activated that thing that I just said, but I did activate

00:23:22   on my phone. I have never had a hoy telephone enabled until very, very recently, and now

00:23:29   I'm going to turn –

00:23:32   [Laughter]

00:23:33   This is all stayed in, by the way. This is totally stayed in.

00:23:35   Oh, absolutely.

00:23:35   [Laughter]

00:23:36   Anyway –

00:23:37   Why do you turn that on?

00:23:39   I turned it on to see if – I turned it on – as an aside, I turned it on like a week

00:23:43   or so ago because I'm like, "Look, everyone else has this on on their phone," and I've

00:23:46   had it off for exactly the reason you would think you would have it off because I never

00:23:50   wanted to accidentally activate, but very frequently, this gets to the point of this

00:23:54   thing. I have a cylinder that listens to me in my home now, and I like the idea that I

00:24:00   can just say things into the air, and I'm like, you know what, maybe that kind of relationship

00:24:04   with my phone is just there waiting for me, and I've been too stubborn by keeping this

00:24:07   feature off since it was introduced, and like literally never turning it on, never even

00:24:10   trying it because it just sounded awful to me. So I should really give it a chance. And

00:24:15   In this week or two that I've had it on, I have used it consciously about once, and now

00:24:20   I have triggered it accidentally once.

00:24:22   That's the first time I've ever accidentally triggered it, because what occasion do I have

00:24:24   to say that with my phone nearby?

00:24:28   But for this video, speaking not to the air, but to a device that you know is nearby, whether

00:24:36   it's your remote in your hand or a phone on your nightstand, is to me different than just

00:24:44   yelling into the air, not yelling, or just speaking into the air the way you do with

00:24:48   the cylinders. And all the other things that are in this video, like a lot of using the

00:24:52   home kit thing on control center, the third screen over, whatever the hell it is, maybe

00:24:57   it's the second, I don't know, and pressing those rectangles to say, "I'm here, I'm doing

00:25:02   this, I want to do that, change to this mode," which is fine, like it's good to have buttons

00:25:05   for all this stuff. But like Scott McDulty says in his tweet, anybody who has cylinders

00:25:12   it listens to you when you talk in the air, like that is the killer feature. To be able

00:25:15   to just stroll around and just say something and have it do things, whether it's asking

00:25:19   it to set a timer, or asking it what the weather's going to be tomorrow, or telling it to turn

00:25:24   lights on or off, or whatever phrases you enter into the thing, like just getting used

00:25:28   to being able to say that, and even for our thing, like the stupid stuff of asking it

00:25:32   how to spell things and multiply and divide numbers, like, or define things or say something

00:25:37   in a particular language, I don't have to wonder, is my phone in this room? Will it

00:25:42   hear me from that distance? Will I be able to hear it? Or if multiple phones in the room

00:25:47   and they all have that feature, who's they are not going to say activated on it, will

00:25:50   they all wake up and start trying to answer at the same time and everything like that?

00:25:53   The cylinders simplify all of this. And so this video, I kind of feel the same way. This

00:25:57   video basically says, "Hey, we at Apple have home automation. It's massively less convenient

00:26:03   than the cylinders you talk to, but it exists, and if you like tapping buttons, boy, is this

00:26:07   a thing for you.

00:26:08   And I feel like they're really missing the boat on this type of home automation.

00:26:14   And it makes me think once again that as silly as these little cylinders are, everyone who

00:26:18   gets one ends up liking it for something.

00:26:23   Like they end up liking it more than they thought they would, because it certainly seems

00:26:26   pretty dumb.

00:26:28   And even if they only use one tiny corner of the functionality, that tiny corner functionality

00:26:32   becomes an important part of their life. And that, I think, shows a successful product.

00:26:37   So I think Apple not having something like this for such a long time, either because

00:26:42   they're coming up with the super duper uber awesome one that's going to be way better

00:26:45   than everybody else's and cost twice as much, or because they just think it's a dumb idea,

00:26:50   I think they're missing the boat. And this website is like a giant advertisement for

00:26:53   them missing the boat.

00:26:54   Yeah, because like, you know, as more people get these devices too, like, timing to the

00:26:59   the market is kind of important here.

00:27:01   There is a significant first mover advantage

00:27:03   because once you have a couple of these cylinders

00:27:06   in your house from one of the brands that sells them,

00:27:09   if Apple's comes out and is just a little bit better,

00:27:13   no one's gonna buy it.

00:27:14   It has to be massively better to get people

00:27:18   who have already bought into these systems to convert over.

00:27:21   And right now, I have the Amazon ecosystem.

00:27:25   I have a short cylinder in my office

00:27:27   and a tall cylinder in the kitchen.

00:27:29   And when the Google Home came out,

00:27:31   I heard what most people said about it,

00:27:33   and I was initially interested,

00:27:36   but then once all the reviews came out

00:27:38   and basically said, "Yeah, it's fine.

00:27:40   "It's just about as good as the Amazon Echo.

00:27:42   "It's not massively better or worse.

00:27:44   "It's about the same.

00:27:46   "Better in some ways, worse in others,

00:27:47   "but about the same overall."

00:27:49   Then I immediately lost any interest in ever trying it,

00:27:52   because I thought, "Well, I already have one.

00:27:54   "It's all set up.

00:27:55   "I have all my integration set up.

00:27:57   I'm habituated to saying its commands and using it to control stuff in my house and

00:28:03   play music and stuff. So why would I switch if the other thing is not massively better?

00:28:08   And so if Apple comes out with their version of the Amazon Echo or Google Home or whatever

00:28:12   else and it's, you know, Siri in a can, like, then it has to be way, way better for me to

00:28:19   care and for anyone who's bought any of these devices to care. And I think the chances of

00:28:24   that are just not that great. Seeing how Siri actually is and has been today in the competitive

00:28:29   landscape and seeing Apple's recent kind of accessory hardware in the $200 range like

00:28:38   the Apple TV or them killing the airport base stations. Like seeing their efforts in this

00:28:43   kind of area recently, it just doesn't fill me with confidence that if they do one of

00:28:50   of these things that it's going to be massively better than what we already have. So it's

00:28:55   probably just going to be roughly the same if not worse and as you said twice as expensive

00:29:01   probably. So I don't really see that going anywhere. I think the typical Apple, you know,

00:29:08   the pattern of sitting back and kind of waiting until everyone has like version 2 and then

00:29:12   rolling out the amazing Apple one, that might not work here. I think that might just be

00:29:18   more like what we've seen with the Apple TV, which is some people buy it, you know,

00:29:23   the really devoted Apple fans buy it, but it doesn't have mass market success because

00:29:30   it's just, you know, more expensive than everything else but not better enough, and

00:29:35   possibly even not better.

00:29:36   The one thing by all accounts that Apple is doing better than its competitors is security.

00:29:41   Like being very careful about who they partner with and having very strict requirements on

00:29:45   security and privacy. Surely they're better on privacy than Google and Amazon are. Although

00:29:50   there was that case where some law enforcement agency was trying to subpoena audio recordings

00:29:56   from Amazon Echo or something and Amazon, I think this was Amazon, did fight them on it and said no

00:30:01   you can't have our stuff and they're trying to like get that audio classified in a way that it

00:30:05   makes it not available without a warrant and all these other things right. So but there are a lot

00:30:10   of security implications to all these devices which at this point you just have to accept that

00:30:13   you are compromising security in some way by using any of these things. And Apple with HomeKit

00:30:20   seems to be trying to avoid silly situations where a vendor integrates with you and does something

00:30:28   extremely lax when it comes to security and has some obvious flaw that either makes devices in

00:30:35   your houses into botnets or into spy devices and stuff like that. And that's good. Like,

00:30:41   good in general is Apple tends to be good on security and privacy, but so far consumers have

00:30:47   shown no willingness to value privacy in their purchase decisions. That is not a differentiating,

00:30:54   not enough of a differentiating factor. Even in the phone space, Apple is very good on privacy

00:31:01   and security with its phones, but I don't think that's why people are buying iPhones. They're

00:31:04   buying them because they like iPhones and it's a nice to have and it's a perk or whatever, but

00:31:09   people are voting with their wallets by buying, you name it, light bulbs, televisions, cylinders

00:31:14   that you talk to with terrible security and privacy that like literally intentionally spy

00:31:19   and you record everything you say and do and then sell it to people and everyone's like,

00:31:23   "Oh well, whatever, TV works, looks nice." You know, like so it's not that that's how the market

00:31:29   is working right now and what can you do if people don't value it? Do we need to change something for

00:31:34   people to value it? Do we need a new generation of people in the aftermath of some terrible privacy

00:31:38   related thing to deal with this? Are we just happy to leave it to the legal system to say

00:31:43   like, "Well, people get hacked and hacking is illegal and if it happens, you know, someone

00:31:48   will stop them, someone, someone, but blah, blah, blah, big sky theory, no one cares about

00:31:52   what I'm doing anyway, so I'll just buy this Vizio TV and get spied on," or whatever it

00:31:56   is, you know? And it's true, it's true of the Google cylinder that I have, it's probably

00:31:59   true of the Amazon ones, and it's, you know, we accept it for the trade-offs. Even Marco,

00:32:05   famous paranoid privacy advocate who won't put

00:32:08   precompiled binaries into his application,

00:32:10   is willing to trade devices in his house

00:32:13   constantly recording him for the convenience

00:32:15   of saying something and have his lights go out at night.

00:32:16   - Well, and to be fair, I'm risking my own personal privacy

00:32:21   with that one, and then it's very different

00:32:23   from risking the privacy of my entire

00:32:26   customer base of my app.

00:32:27   - You're trading the thing that you can trade,

00:32:29   which seems like a fair trade to you.

00:32:31   You're like, well, no one really cares about me,

00:32:32   and whatever, and I get this convenience,

00:32:35   And you weigh them and you're like, well, convenience wins in this case, right?

00:32:39   You know, I don't have any of these devices in the house, like I said earlier, and I've

00:32:44   only interacted with them a couple of times, and I don't think I get it.

00:32:51   Like, it's neat, I suppose, but I don't know.

00:32:56   This is like the old man portion of the show, and I'm surprised it took us this long to

00:32:58   get here, but I don't really see how getting up and walking a few paces to turn a light

00:33:03   So terrible like and I know I know that makes me an old man. I know that makes me backwards and ridiculous

00:33:08   I understand you can't write a letter on a piece of paper and walk to the mailbox is the mailbox too far away

00:33:14   You gotta have those electronic messages. I

00:33:16   Completely agree with you and if and if the roles were reversed I would be saying the exact same thing to you like it's just

00:33:23   This I know I say this a lot and I'm always wrong and so I'm sure this is another time

00:33:27   But this fills a need that I don't feel like I have fast forward to six months from now

00:33:31   I'm gonna have probably an Amazon cylinder, a Google cylinder, and maybe even an Apple cylinder,

00:33:36   and I'll love all of them in their own special way. There'll be my children at that point. But

00:33:41   sitting here now, there's no integration, there's no thing that I can see today that makes me want

00:33:52   one of them. And I bet you anything if one showed up at the house, I would end up loving it. But

00:33:56   But it's just, even this video, I watched it and thought, "Well, yeah, that's cool."

00:34:01   But I don't, it's solving problems I don't think I have.

00:34:06   It's like any of those things where you don't know you have the need until you have it.

00:34:09   And it's not going to be like a life-changing thing like the iPhone was.

00:34:13   But I feel like everyone who has one, like we use ours less than I thought I would because

00:34:17   basically I was betting on Google making their product better, faster than they actually

00:34:21   are.

00:34:22   So, oh well, better me.

00:34:23   If only you had friends who told you beforehand to pick the other one.

00:34:26   I don't think I would use the other one anymore, because I think it's basically a

00:34:30   wash at this point.

00:34:32   But anyway, apparently not.

00:34:34   Here's, you know, because it does, it is really good at the things that it does do.

00:34:39   But eventually, once you realize these things are there and start to get into the mindset,

00:34:44   what was it?

00:34:45   Like we're sitting down, ours is within earshot when we sit down to dinner, and we're

00:34:50   sitting down at dinner trying to think of, talking about some songs that someone heard,

00:34:54   and because I subscribe to Google Play Music, another reason, by the way, that I wouldn't

00:34:57   want an Apple one is that it would make me have to subscribe to Apple Music to do what

00:35:02   I'm about to describe. We were having some discussion about a song, and I can just say

00:35:06   into the air, I can just request into the air for that song to be played, almost any

00:35:10   song to be played, and it just starts playing it. Because we were having a discussion of

00:35:15   what the lyrics were and how it sounds, and the kids wanted to hear it, and no one has

00:35:18   to get up from the table or pull out their phone and try to search for the song, I just

00:35:22   say something into the air before you can even get your phone out of your pocket and

00:35:25   the song is playing. And that is a weird future world thing that I think is awesome. And is

00:35:31   it a big deal? And is it a need? No, it's not. But for the $110 or whatever I pay for

00:35:36   this stupid cylinder to be able to say words into the air and have the song that I requested

00:35:39   play immediately, I think that's like worth the price of entry. Even if I only do that

00:35:45   once every week and a half and the rest of the time my kids are just asking how to say

00:35:48   things in foreign languages like this is all bonus.

00:35:51   Now, again, it's not a life-changing thing, but once you get used to the idea that something

00:35:56   is constantly listening in your house and can conceivably do things that you find useful,

00:36:01   it's hard to go back to the idea that nothing is listening and you have to actually pick

00:36:05   something up and hit it with your fingers because there is a big difference in how it

00:36:10   feels to do something.

00:36:12   It's kind of like the difference between how it feels to pull out your phone and look something

00:36:14   up versus how it would feel to get in your car and drive to the library and look something

00:36:17   up. And now this is, you know, it's like, you know, it's an exponential type thing where

00:36:23   like obviously the library is way longer than the looking on the phone. But now, like how

00:36:28   much how much longer is saying something into the air to your phone? It's probably a couple

00:36:33   seconds, a couple minutes, but man, it feels it feels so different. And you just can't

00:36:38   go back to the other way. And if you wanted to go whole full home automation, everything

00:36:42   and hook stuff up to it and do all stuff like that, that feel like you're starting to get

00:36:46   into tech gadget land at that point.

00:36:48   But that can be awesome too, especially if it's like a hobby,

00:36:50   to have a house where you can just say things

00:36:52   and have it do stuff and work with your rhythms.

00:36:54   There's, I think these devices can be enjoyed

00:36:57   at many levels and as we said last time we discussed this,

00:36:59   most importantly, they're all freaking cheap

00:37:02   in the grand scheme of things.

00:37:03   Like they're not $3, but they're also not $2,000

00:37:06   like a new MacBook, right?

00:37:07   You can get one of these, you can buy all of these,

00:37:10   you can put them, what is the dot one,

00:37:11   what is the short cylinder, Marco?

00:37:13   - It's like 40 bucks.

00:37:15   - 40 bucks?

00:37:16   It's really cheap.

00:37:17   - You can get one of these things on a whim

00:37:20   just to see if you might like it and throw it somewhere.

00:37:22   And if you never use it, you're like,

00:37:24   "Oh well, it's $40.

00:37:25   "It's like a nice meal for one person."

00:37:27   Like, whatever.

00:37:29   - You know, to answer your earlier question, Case,

00:37:30   like you don't see why it would be a big deal

00:37:33   to have faster light switches or something.

00:37:36   The answer is that there's like one thing

00:37:39   that gets most owners in the door.

00:37:42   And for most people I've talked to and been around

00:37:45   and seen be converted, including myself,

00:37:48   that one thing is music.

00:37:49   You know, it's like what John said,

00:37:50   like it really is awesome to be able to just say,

00:37:53   Alexa, play fish, and have that just work

00:37:57   for all of our listeners. - You did that on purpose.

00:37:58   You terrible, terrible troll.

00:38:00   - Not the first time.

00:38:01   Or, you know, and you can say, you know,

00:38:03   hey Cylinder, play rock music from the '90s.

00:38:06   It's just really, really nice to have that.

00:38:12   There's a reason why places like Sonos

00:38:15   having trouble now. Like anything that is involved in the high end audio scene for tech

00:38:21   geeks that is not voice controlled is having problems right now because it's once you get

00:38:27   into the voice controlled music it is so awesome. Especially like when you know if you're having

00:38:31   like friends over for dinner or something else and you just have it playing and you

00:38:35   can just and anybody can just say you know next song or pause or volume up or whatever

00:38:39   else or people can call out their own request. Like it's fun. It becomes a cool a pretty

00:38:44   cool thing. The Echo is not a great speaker. It's only an okay speaker. Literally, like

00:38:49   in my house, it is sitting right next to a Sonos speaker that is way, way better sounding.

00:38:55   And the Sonos speaker almost never gets used anymore because it is just so much more convenient

00:38:59   to use the Echo for music purposes. And so anyway, you know, what gets someone in is

00:39:04   usually one cool thing that they like see or hear about and they're like, "Oh my

00:39:09   god, I want it for that." But then once you already have the cylinder in your house

00:39:13   and set up and everything.

00:39:14   Then when Black Friday comes around

00:39:16   and the switchable outlets go on sale for like 20 bucks,

00:39:19   you're like, "Hey, let me try one of those."

00:39:22   And then you try one and you're like,

00:39:24   "Oh, that ends up, there's that one lamp,

00:39:26   "it's the total other side of the room,

00:39:29   "and I turn it off every night,

00:39:30   "and every night I have to walk over there and turn it off,

00:39:32   "and what if I didn't have to walk over there?

00:39:34   "I'd save like five seconds a night, and that could add up."

00:39:37   And then next time they're on sale,

00:39:38   you get three or four more of them,

00:39:39   'cause you realize how useful they are,

00:39:41   and then all of a sudden you can say,

00:39:42   "Hey, look, turn off everything,"

00:39:44   and all of your lights turn off.

00:39:46   And when you're going up to bed,

00:39:47   and you have a glass of water in one hand,

00:39:49   and maybe some laundry, or a dog in the other hand,

00:39:52   and you don't have any hands to go hit all the light switches

00:39:54   before you go upstairs, you can just say,

00:39:55   "Hey, turn off everything,"

00:39:56   and five things turn off at once,

00:39:59   and you just walk upstairs.

00:40:00   And it becomes pretty cool.

00:40:02   And so that's how you get into this.

00:40:05   It is not that you can't walk over and hit a light switch,

00:40:08   but once you have one of these technologies

00:40:11   for some other reason, like music,

00:40:13   then it's, and as all the home automation things

00:40:18   just start getting really cheaper,

00:40:19   you know, when you can go and get these switch blouts

00:40:22   for like 20 bucks, whatever,

00:40:24   or you can have other integration through web services,

00:40:26   through like IFTTT and various services like that,

00:40:29   and you know, warm up your car, or you can,

00:40:31   you, Casey, you have your garage door thing.

00:40:33   You can like open and close your garage door by voice.

00:40:36   Like, once you are in the system

00:40:38   for some other compelling reason, like music,

00:40:41   you will start having these other things trickle in

00:40:43   and you'll be like, wait a minute, this is kind of awesome.

00:40:46   And none of it's necessary.

00:40:47   Like you could operate your house without these things.

00:40:50   But once you have a taste of this, it's just really nice.

00:40:55   Again, it's not a must have.

00:40:58   We can all send letters to the post office if we want to.

00:41:01   But once you have something nicer, it is pretty great.

00:41:06   - Yeah, it's funny you bring up,

00:41:08   both of you bring up the music thing

00:41:10   because when I tried Apple Music during the free trial when it first came out, the one

00:41:16   thing I deeply missed about Apple Music was being able to say to Siri, you know, "play

00:41:24   mute math" or whatever the case may be, and just have it happen.

00:41:27   And that was super cool, and it was almost enough to get me to pay for Apple Music rather

00:41:33   than Spotify, which I prefer for reasons that are irrelevant.

00:41:36   But all the other things that I preferred about Spotify were enough to keep me away

00:41:40   from Apple Music.

00:41:42   And I guess that's the difference is with the garage door opener as an example, I immediately

00:41:47   understood why having an internet-connected garage door opener could immediately improve

00:41:53   or improve may be a strong word, but I can't think of a better one, improve my life.

00:41:59   Whereas the cylinders, I don't doubt that they would make things better in all the ways

00:42:03   you described, but there's less of a visceral, tangible need that I can see sitting here now.

00:42:09   And I'm sure the time will come that I will get one, and I'm sure I'll be on this show saying,

00:42:12   "By God, what was I thinking? Of course I wanted this." But sitting here now, ignorance is less.

00:42:18   [crickets chirping]

00:42:20   Wow. You know, it does take some time to actually figure out what you think is going to be good for

00:42:25   after you just play with it and find the limits of the thing. And I think it really is situational.

00:42:32   Like it's not as if you have to like, "Every day I'm going to do this thing and I'm going

00:42:36   to use this thing to do the thing."

00:42:37   Like getting a new device into your life and incorporating it into some tasks you have

00:42:41   to do.

00:42:42   Like for me that's not my experience of having this thing.

00:42:45   It's more like developing an awareness that this thing is there so that when a need comes

00:42:49   up that you reflexively satisfy in other ways, eventually you come to remember, "I don't

00:42:56   have to do that.

00:42:57   I can just say this question into the air and get an answer."

00:43:00   Even if it's like dividing two numbers or converting like teaspoons into cups or whatever,

00:43:07   all those things are things I've done my whole life and I go, "I don't remember the converters,

00:43:11   let me check," or whatever.

00:43:12   And you can always pick up your phone or ask someone in the house who you think knows the

00:43:16   conversion or all these other ways you have to solve this problem.

00:43:21   Eventually, the most important thing you need to have is a deep-grained instinctive awareness

00:43:27   that I can say this thing into the air and get an answer, right? And that's the hardest

00:43:32   part because you will find yourself pulling out your phone and typing into Google, you

00:43:36   know, "How many teaspoons in a cup?" And you'll do that and maybe do that without

00:43:41   even realizing you could have just asked that question, but eventually it sinks in. It sinks

00:43:45   in after some incidents of like arguing about the lyrics to the song over dinner and realizing,

00:43:49   we can settle this in 30 seconds. I can just request that song by title. It will immediately

00:43:52   start playing and we can all listen to it together, right? Or not remembering what year

00:43:58   someone was born or what album this thing was on or whatever. We can all take out our

00:44:03   phones and look it up. We all know how to do that. It's like, you could do that. Or

00:44:06   you could just put a little trigger phrase that I'm not going to say in front of that

00:44:10   same question you were just asking each other and instantly get some kind of answer. And

00:44:16   it can go too far where we have the recent rash of the Google, what is it, the Google

00:44:20   answer thing where it tries to answer the question definitively at the top of search

00:44:23   results and it just throws out bogus stuff that has no foundation and truth, right? And

00:44:28   all these devices, again, there are security concerns and privacy concerns and everything,

00:44:31   but it is a glimpse of the as-yet-unperfected, unrealized future. And like all gadget tech

00:44:39   geeks, we all like to sort of see what that future is going to be like and try living

00:44:43   it even if it is pretty rough at this point, just because we think there's value in it

00:44:48   and whatever form it takes in the future, I think this type of interface has proved

00:44:53   its worth that it has to be part of the various ways we interact with technology and networks,

00:44:59   right?

00:45:00   All the other ones have proved their worth, and they're not going to go away and be

00:45:02   completely replaced with this, but this, I feel like, has definitively proved its worth.

00:45:07   It's just a question of how it fits in with all the other ways that we use computing devices

00:45:12   and connect networks and stuff.

00:45:15   We're brought to you this week by Squarespace.

00:45:18   Make your next move with a beautiful website from Squarespace.

00:45:21   Enter offer code ATP at checkout to get 10% off.

00:45:25   Squarespace lets you build websites.

00:45:28   Beautiful professional designed websites full of functionality.

00:45:31   Everything from a simple content site to a blog to a gallery to a portfolio to even a

00:45:36   full blown store where you sell physical or digital goods.

00:45:40   Squarespace can do all of that.

00:45:41   And it does it while looking amazing for you.

00:45:45   So with the interface you use and the interface everyone else sees, first of all it looks

00:45:48   almost the same because it's really like a what you see is what you get environment.

00:45:52   But then your site just looks so good with their professionally designed templates that

00:45:56   you can very, very easily customize if you want to.

00:45:59   All this drag and drop stuff and little live previews and what you see is what you get.

00:46:04   It is so nice to make websites with Squarespace and it's so easy.

00:46:07   It is so much easier than how it used to be to do any of this stuff.

00:46:12   it's making a simple blog or a podcast or setting up a whole store. With Squarespace

00:46:16   you should click a few buttons and it's basically done. They support it if you need any help.

00:46:21   They have rock solid hosting. I highly recommend that you check out Squarespace for your next

00:46:26   project. It is so easy to do. You will wonder why you ever did anything else to make a website.

00:46:32   Go to squarespace.com. Start a free trial site today with no credit card required. See

00:46:37   how far you get. I say try it for an hour. Next time you need to make a site for you

00:46:41   or someone else, try it for an hour, see how far you get, and I bet by the end of that

00:46:46   hour you will love Squarespace so much you'll sign up. And when you do sign up, use offer

00:46:50   code ATP to get 10% off your first purchase. Thank you very much to Squarespace for supporting

00:46:54   this show. Make your next move with Squarespace.

00:47:00   So YouTube also, almost a month ago now, has announced YouTube TV, which means for $35

00:47:09   a month. Subscribers get all four major networks, ABC, CBS, FOX, and NBC, and around 30 of the

00:47:14   biggest cable channels. And that price covers six accounts, so each member of the house

00:47:19   can have a personalized account that offers recommendations tuned to their taste. I'm

00:47:23   reading mostly from The Verge's coverage of this. It will be missing channels from Viacom,

00:47:28   including big names like Comedy Central and MTV. It also won't have programming from Turner,

00:47:32   which means you won't get CNN, TV, STNT, AMC, Discovery, and A&E.

00:47:37   But this, as someone who is not really looking to cut the cord, this does sound pretty compelling

00:47:42   to me.

00:47:43   I don't really have a good feel for what the landscape is for cord cutters, because I'm

00:47:49   not even really considering it at the moment.

00:47:51   But this sounds really good.

00:47:52   Marco, I know you're not really that into broadcast TV, but I believe you've cut the

00:47:57   cord, so are you interested in this at all?

00:48:00   - Yeah, I mean, the last time I had cable

00:48:02   was about 10 years ago, and I don't say that's to like,

00:48:05   to super brag in the hipster way possible, just a fact.

00:48:09   I've, you know, since then, I've gotten into the habit

00:48:14   of just not having these TV channels.

00:48:16   I do get and buy TV content in other ways,

00:48:21   like through iTunes and stuff, although honestly,

00:48:23   I cannot leave Apple TV purchasing fast enough.

00:48:28   Like, as Top Chef wrapped up on one more season,

00:48:33   I still can't believe how bad buying TV series

00:48:37   on Apple TV is and then watching them

00:48:39   and all the different things that don't work

00:48:41   or that work poorly or that actually spoil the show,

00:48:45   like the auto-generated thumbnails

00:48:46   of the Last Chance Kitchen.

00:48:48   But, you know, I've kinda gotten into the world now

00:48:52   of not having cable, and so to buy access

00:48:56   to all these channels to me, it doesn't really sound

00:49:00   that appealing 'cause I kinda don't need them anymore,

00:49:02   or I've trained myself not to have them anymore.

00:49:06   So the idea of buying access to all these things

00:49:09   so I can watch broadcast TV and sports,

00:49:12   not although with a bunch of asterisks and stuff like that,

00:49:14   it is advertising a collection of services

00:49:18   that I have gone without for 10 years,

00:49:20   that I have already, this is not something

00:49:23   I really am that excited about for myself.

00:49:26   I do think it is a good idea for people who have been

00:49:29   maintaining a cable subscription all this time

00:49:31   for one of these things or for multiple of these things.

00:49:34   Like lots of people that have, for example, sports fans.

00:49:38   Like a lot of sports fans or people who just like to watch

00:49:42   like live news or who like to watch some shows

00:49:45   that are on one of these networks that just aren't

00:49:47   available easily or affordably elsewhere online,

00:49:51   at least legally.

00:49:53   So for those people, this is a great, this is a good idea.

00:49:56   it seems like a pretty reasonable price.

00:49:58   They say 35 bucks a month for all this stuff.

00:50:01   Now, I'm curious, what form does this take?

00:50:03   Is it like just a TV stream,

00:50:06   and therefore you have to skip commercials and crap,

00:50:08   or is it more like on demand,

00:50:09   where you just pick what you wanna watch

00:50:10   and there's no commercials?

00:50:12   - I'm not sure.

00:50:13   The way I read this was,

00:50:15   it's that it would basically exist within YouTube,

00:50:19   but I could have that dreadfully wrong.

00:50:21   I'm not entirely sure.

00:50:23   - Yeah, 'cause they make mention of things

00:50:24   like a DVR style recording with unlimited storage space

00:50:28   in Google's cloud and the ability to skip over ads.

00:50:31   So that kind of sounds like it's more like

00:50:32   watching a broadcast and you just,

00:50:35   it's kind of like a broadcast with DVR style controls,

00:50:38   but you'd still have to fast forward through the ads.

00:50:41   - So it's kind of weird to see YouTube as the company,

00:50:45   sort of, I don't know if they're very first out of the gate,

00:50:47   but one of the first of the big names to do

00:50:49   what everyone's been referring to was,

00:50:52   This is the skinny bundle thing where it's a subset of the stuff that you can buy in

00:50:57   cable with the idea that people who pay for cable, nobody wants all those channels.

00:51:02   Like everyone just wants a subset of it.

00:51:04   So if we could sell you a subset of it for a cheaper price, then that would be a more

00:51:09   desirable product for you and we could get you onto our platform and stop you paying

00:51:13   for cable.

00:51:14   Or stop you paying for cable.

00:51:16   Stop you paying for television programming for cable because once again the whole cord

00:51:19   cord cutter thing makes about as much sense as debating which parts of a game engine are

00:51:24   done in software and in hardware. It doesn't really mean anything when you look at the

00:51:27   phrasing because "Oh, I'm cutting the cord, I'm going to get all of my video content over

00:51:31   a cable that comes to my house that delivers data." But it doesn't count because it's internet

00:51:36   and not cable television. And, oh, it's a totally different thing. Anyway, Comcast would

00:51:41   still sell you your internet access, or Verizon or whoever would sell you your internet access,

00:51:45   but you were just like "No thanks, I don't want to pay for your cable television bundle,

00:51:49   I just want the internet.

00:51:50   I'll pay you for that."

00:51:52   And then over the internet,

00:51:54   I will get things like YouTube TV.

00:51:55   But anyway, it's ironic that YouTube is doing it

00:51:57   because as far as my children are concerned,

00:52:00   YouTube is television.

00:52:03   They barely watch television anymore.

00:52:05   They watch YouTube on their iOS devices

00:52:08   because that's what they have.

00:52:09   If they didn't, they would watch it on anything else.

00:52:11   Television, like I don't think they know

00:52:14   what ABC, CBS, Fox, and NBC are.

00:52:17   I don't think they recognize

00:52:18   those sequence of three letters.

00:52:19   we put them in sequence and say, "What are these three letters?" they would not be able

00:52:22   to identify. They have no idea. They watch enough television. They've never seen enough

00:52:27   television shows in their life, but their entire interface with television, A, is through

00:52:30   my Tivo, so there is no, again, trying to explain to them or your young children the

00:52:35   concept of live television is extremely difficult. The task of modern parenting, right, to explain

00:52:41   to your toddler what live television is and why you can't fast-forward or pause or anything

00:52:47   like that, like, no, this is happening now. This is live, like, or we can't watch this

00:52:51   because it hasn't aired yet. Like, it's going to come on at seven. It's like, what are you

00:52:55   even saying that I don't understand? Like, I don't understand these words. Like, and

00:52:59   they know that let me explain it to you. You just go like this and you tap over here. And

00:53:04   but just why isn't it working? I think it's broken. Like, no, it hasn't hasn't aired yet.

00:53:08   It's difficult. Anyway, this is a difficult thing to explain, right? So YouTube, it seems

00:53:14   has the future locked up and yet they are the ones out of the gate to say we're going

00:53:17   to try to get the olds by giving them something that makes them feel more comfortable and

00:53:21   you pay us $35 a month and we will resell you this content with a nice kind of interface

00:53:25   that makes it look like you have a TiVo but you don't and you know some fashion of on-demand

00:53:31   type stuff and also with ad skipping and so on and so forth.

00:53:34   But like all these deals, the reason it has always been said that Apple hasn't had this

00:53:39   deal, hasn't had a deal like this despite them pursuing it for many years now is that

00:53:43   They could never get, presumably according to Apple satisfaction, an arrangement of content

00:53:51   and price that Apple liked, that Apple said yes, that's what we want to go to market with.

00:53:55   So they've come to market with nothing.

00:53:58   And all these things, if you look at them, it's like, oh, well, you got all this stuff,

00:54:01   but you don't have all that stuff.

00:54:02   Is this the right price and the combination of content?

00:54:06   If you got this and you'd be like, I'm going to replace cable, and then you just realize,

00:54:10   I'm trying to think of a show that's on AMC, like Mad Men used to be.

00:54:13   What's on AMC now?

00:54:15   The Americans, is The Americans FX?

00:54:17   Anyway, if you get this and you're like, "This will be just like cable.

00:54:20   We can just pick the channels we want," but you realize you can't get some of these things

00:54:24   at any price?

00:54:25   Oh, The Walking Dead is on AMC, Better Call Saul.

00:54:29   You realize you can't get them at any price?

00:54:31   That can be a deal breaker.

00:54:32   It's like, "Well, I guess we'll just stick with cable," because cable, despite the fact

00:54:36   the cable is making you pay like, you know, $3 a month for ESPN that you never watch or

00:54:40   whatever the hell the number is these days. You have access to everything essentially.

00:54:44   The cable is a mature industry and everything is resold through cable subscriptions and

00:54:48   if you're willing to pay enough money you can get everything. To get a skinny bundle

00:54:53   like, "Okay, well, I'll skinny bundle for this and then I will just pay on iTunes for

00:54:58   The Walking Dead the day after it comes out or I'll watch Game of Thrones on HBO Go or

00:55:02   now and hope that it doesn't get overwhelmed by people and like that's the other thing

00:55:06   with these skinny bundles you can be really sad if Game of Thrones premieres and you can't

00:55:10   watch it because of some networking thing whereas if you had cable it would have quote

00:55:12   unquote just worked right because it's broadcast versus you know database television which

00:55:18   has all the problems of any you know database solution so I don't know if they're striking

00:55:25   the right balance and honestly I think YouTube shouldn't care that much if they're striking

00:55:28   the right balance because they sure as heck seem to be the future of television as far

00:55:32   as any of my children are concerned. And honestly, I'm watching more YouTube than I used to.

00:55:37   Like as in subscribing to channels and looking for content to come on them. So I think this

00:55:46   is a good move for YouTube. It's like we are already at the forefront of this new thing

00:55:49   and you know what, we can scrape up some of those old things and they're not so picky

00:55:52   about oh we can't go to market with this skinny bundle because not enough people will buy

00:55:56   it because it doesn't have CNN and TBS or A&E and AMC or whatever. They're just like whatever,

00:56:01   We'll go for it. We'll see how it goes. If it doesn't, whatever, we're the future.

00:56:04   We'll be fine. Whereas Apple is still waiting for this beautiful perfect deal that has extremely low

00:56:10   prices and the right amount of control for Apple and can provide the right experience.

00:56:14   So they just have nothing. They just have nothing to offer. They have this TV app that looks like

00:56:18   it's a ghost town. And you can kind of see a glimmer of what it was supposed to be. But what

00:56:22   it is now is nothing compared to YouTube, nothing compared to YouTube TV. So Apple is not doing well

00:56:29   here and Netflix and Amazon and YouTube definitely seem to be the future of video content for

00:56:35   an entire generation of people, whether they be young children or millennials or whatever

00:56:40   who just accept that the content they want probably isn't on TV, unless it's live news

00:56:49   or sports or something like that.

00:56:51   Even that, those will be the last ones to come over, but the future looks dim for the

00:56:55   the old model of television in all aspects.

00:56:58   And these skinny bundles entirely seem like

00:57:00   a transitional thing to get people over the hump

00:57:03   to the new system.

00:57:05   And the more of them that are out there,

00:57:07   the more people they'll pull over.

00:57:08   And like Marco, eventually, like once you do it

00:57:11   and realize the world doesn't come to an end

00:57:13   and you just get used to that kind of lifestyle

00:57:14   and accept whatever the limitations may be

00:57:16   during the transitional period, it's hard to go back.

00:57:19   Like you rarely hear about people who cut the cord,

00:57:22   try it for a year, and then immediately go back.

00:57:24   I mean, maybe they do if there's a disagreement in the house about how important local live

00:57:29   sports are and a misprediction of what a blackout would really mean to your life.

00:57:34   But beyond that, I feel like the people who unsubscribe from cable television, especially

00:57:40   in tech nerd circles, they find alternate arrangements and are happy with it eventually.

00:57:46   Like that it is a successful transition.

00:57:48   It's kind of like the people by the cylinders.

00:57:50   You're not quite sure what's going to work out, but you get it, and in the end, it's

00:57:53   better than you thought it would be.

00:57:55   - One thing that is somewhat appealing to me

00:57:57   about these new digital-based services, though,

00:58:00   is that there's no equipment,

00:58:03   and that you could probably pretty easily

00:58:06   start and stop your service.

00:58:08   In the past, if there was a big event of some kind,

00:58:12   like watching a presidential election return,

00:58:15   or a really important news event,

00:58:18   or a really important TV show that I was super into

00:58:20   that I couldn't get any other way,

00:58:22   it would be kind of a bummer to not have cable

00:58:25   for brief periods in my life.

00:58:27   And I would occasionally think,

00:58:28   maybe we should just get it again and just never use it.

00:58:31   But the idea of having to call up a local cable company

00:58:36   or whatever and have them schedule an appointment

00:58:40   and have them come to the house during this eight hour window

00:58:42   that usually becomes more than that,

00:58:44   and they come at the very end of it,

00:58:45   except for that one time where they came early,

00:58:47   so you can't really plan for it.

00:58:49   And then they install this giant box

00:58:50   that may or may not work.

00:58:52   If you want any kind of DVR functionality,

00:58:54   you need to deal with either another giant box

00:58:56   like the Syracuse method,

00:58:57   or you just deal with their crappy giant box

00:59:00   with their crappy DVR.

00:59:01   You gotta learn all the controls all over again.

00:59:03   You got another remote hanging around the house,

00:59:04   this giant box, and all this overhead

00:59:08   of starting and then later stopping that service.

00:59:11   Like if you wanna stop that service,

00:59:12   you gotta call them on the phone,

00:59:14   which I will do quite a lot to avoid.

00:59:16   (laughing)

00:59:17   Call them on the phone,

00:59:18   talk to some customer service rep,

00:59:20   In the case of some of these morally bankrupt companies

00:59:24   like Comcast, convince them to please for the love of God

00:59:27   let you cancel your service,

00:59:29   which you may or may not succeed at.

00:59:31   That may or may not take a very long time to convince them.

00:59:34   Then have that whole process in reverse.

00:59:37   Scheduling, dealing with the equipment,

00:59:40   whether you gotta drop it off somewhere

00:59:41   or have them come pick it up and disconnect the wire.

00:59:44   It's a big pain in the butt.

00:59:46   And then they probably have restrictions

00:59:47   on how often you can sign up

00:59:49   or disconnect your service again,

00:59:51   or like, you know, and then,

00:59:53   there's all this basically BS involved

00:59:57   in starting and stopping cable TV service.

01:00:00   So to have these internet-based ones

01:00:03   where it's probably just like, you know,

01:00:05   clicking a few buttons and entering a credit card

01:00:07   into the YouTube app, and then when you wanna stop it,

01:00:10   you, you know, go through some screens

01:00:12   and there's probably an all-digital way to do it

01:00:15   where you probably don't have to talk

01:00:15   to anybody on the phone.

01:00:17   That is actually probably a really good thing

01:00:19   for the cable industry.

01:00:21   It's not good in the sense that it becomes easier

01:00:23   to stop your service, but I think it is good

01:00:26   in that for people like me who don't have it

01:00:28   most of the time, but occasionally have some reason

01:00:31   where we might want it, I think you're more likely

01:00:33   to win people like us over because the barrier to entry

01:00:36   is now lower than it was before.

01:00:38   So that, I think, is a big new good feature of this.

01:00:42   However, that being said, what Jon said

01:00:46   about the channel availability is a big deal.

01:00:48   It includes the big rockers and roars,

01:00:50   but for 35 bucks a month, that's like a basic cable plan.

01:00:53   And it does not include Comedy Central, MTV, CNN,

01:00:57   TBS, TNT, AMC, A&E, Discovery.

01:01:00   It's like this huge list of channels that come

01:01:04   in pretty much every standard cable bundle in the US

01:01:07   for like 20 years, and they don't come with this.

01:01:11   And that kind of thing, in the regular cable market,

01:01:16   When you're choosing between one of the various satellite

01:01:20   companies like DirecTV or Dish or whatever,

01:01:22   if you choose between that or Comcast or Phios

01:01:26   or whatever your local cable thing is,

01:01:28   oftentimes one of these networks will be missing

01:01:32   from one of these services and that'll be enough

01:01:34   to get people to choose the other one.

01:01:36   So to have this many things missing,

01:01:39   that's really a pretty big problem, I think.

01:01:43   So this specific service at this specific time

01:01:46   with this specific set of deals that they made,

01:01:49   having such limited channel options,

01:01:51   that's gonna really hurt them, I think.

01:01:53   But the idea of this kind of bundle, I think, is strong,

01:01:58   if anybody can get all the deals in place,

01:02:00   or even just some of the deals,

01:02:02   so just get more than what YouTube got.

01:02:04   We are sponsored this week by Betterment,

01:02:08   investing made better.

01:02:10   To learn more, visit Betterment.com/ATP.

01:02:14   Betterment is the world's largest automated investing service.

01:02:18   What this means is, unlike traditional financial services where you often pay high commissions,

01:02:24   Betterment is focused on bringing lower fees to everyone.

01:02:27   They make investing easier and available at a lower cost.

01:02:30   These are the same strategies that financial advisors use with clients who have millions

01:02:35   of dollars and now Betterment makes us available to everyone at much lower cost than traditional

01:02:40   financial services. Betterment cares about its clients. This is shown through how transparent

01:02:45   the investing process is, which is unlike much of the investment world that just have

01:02:48   to make more money, often recommending investments that they make hidden commissions and fees

01:02:52   from. You might have heard about Betterment in the press such as in the Wall Street Journal,

01:02:56   Bloomberg and TechCrunch. They are so good that they've won awards for their customer

01:03:00   experience. Investing involves risk. For a limited time, sign up for Betterment and you

01:03:05   may qualify for a free Canary home security system to help secure your home. For terms

01:03:10   and conditions, visit betterment.com/ATP. Betterment. Investing made better.

01:03:19   Now we enter the hardware portion of the program. So I don't know which one of you wants to

01:03:26   to kick this off, but Intel is going 14 nanometers

01:03:30   one more time apparently.

01:03:32   - Remember when they had the TikTok strategy

01:03:34   and we talked about that,

01:03:34   and it became TikTok thud or whatever?

01:03:37   - They changed it to this TikTok,

01:03:41   well, I forget what they're thinking,

01:03:41   like it's not TikTok anymore,

01:03:43   it's like, I gotta find a diagram.

01:03:44   - Like a PAO or something,

01:03:45   Process Architecture Optimization?

01:03:48   - Right, and it was because basically like,

01:03:50   oh, we used to, you know, we'd do a process shrink,

01:03:53   then we'd do an architecture,

01:03:54   and then we'd do a process shrink,

01:03:55   do no architecture and it was kind of on a yearly basis but either way that was their cadence right

01:03:59   and they're like oh we can't we can't sustain that anymore because every time we try to do a

01:04:03   new process is taking longer and longer so to try to get from 14 nanometer to 10 or whatever the

01:04:07   next one is it's taking longer than we thought so we're going to do a process shrink we're going to

01:04:10   architecture and then we're going to optimize that architecture so basically give us another year to

01:04:14   get to the shrink the new strategy is process architecture optimize and you know what let's

01:04:21   Let's optimize again because we don't have the new process size ready to go.

01:04:28   And it's kind of comical to see them change their TikTok strategy to a three-step strategy

01:04:32   to a four-step strategy.

01:04:34   It's like a little kid stalling on getting their assignment done.

01:04:38   It's like, "Well, my new strategy is let's wait another year."

01:04:43   And you try to look and see what like – so, you know, Kaby Lake is not that big of a deal

01:04:49   of an enhancement, as we've discussed in the past, things like some video DRM stuff in

01:04:54   there and some minor tweaks, but it's not, you know, like it is technically an optimization

01:04:59   of a pre-existing thing.

01:05:02   And maybe the next one they will optimize more, but we're kind of used to, even in this

01:05:07   age of the dwindling returns on Moore's Law, used to the idea that we will get a bigger

01:05:17   jump in CPU capabilities and with with a process shrink and if that process shrink

01:05:23   just never seems to come it's like well what can we really do like we did a

01:05:27   really good job as architecture to begin with this process size the biggest bang

01:05:31   for the buck historically has been you know how can we decrease power and get

01:05:36   more transistors to do stuff with and you know like make different choices the

01:05:40   shrink gives you that headroom to do it provided you can figure out how to make

01:05:43   it work. In lieu of a shrink, you are left with the same power budget and the same number

01:05:49   of transistors, and just making different trade-offs, basically, or just being a little

01:05:52   bit smarter about a few components. And you can make things better that way, but you can't

01:05:56   make them better in the—not that they're giant leaps—but, you know, to get a double-digit

01:06:01   percent increase in almost anything is a very big effort within a given process size, especially

01:06:07   in an architecture that's already pretty well optimized, right? So this—I'm not going

01:06:11   I'm not going to say this is disappointing, but it is further evidence of the slowing

01:06:16   rate of advancement at the edges of hardware, on cutting edge hardware. What is the best

01:06:23   process size you can get in a sophisticated processor for any amount of money? And for

01:06:30   another year in a row, it's going to be 14 nanometers.

01:06:33   I mean, really, these days, an Intel delay is not news. When Intel delays the next big

01:06:39   for a year that used to shake the industry.

01:06:43   These days it's kind of more surprising when they don't.

01:06:46   - And I think, I'm pretty sure they're still ahead

01:06:48   of most other people because other people are like,

01:06:50   yeah, we're excited we have a 14 nanometer process.

01:06:52   Like this Intel's gonna be on its third year of 14 nanometer.

01:06:55   It's like, well, welcome to the club, right?

01:06:57   And I guess that lead only counts if they get

01:06:59   to the next size before everyone else too.

01:07:02   But I'm guessing they will.

01:07:04   I'm guessing this is not like Intel incompetence.

01:07:07   it is merely that it is getting much, much harder as the sizes get much smaller, as we

01:07:12   discussed on past shows. Moore's law cannot continue forever as far as our understanding

01:07:17   of the physical world is aware, because you cannot subdivide matter into ever-smaller

01:07:20   pieces at a certain point. You reach a size where you can't break it into any smaller

01:07:26   sizes without super high-energy physics and stuff. So inevitably, eventually, everyone's

01:07:31   favorite infinite timeline argument, Moore's law cannot continue, right? Because if you

01:07:35   keep halving the size of things and you're down to like quarks and stuff, like no. Even

01:07:40   getting down just the size of individual atoms, the whole functioning of the way we manufacture

01:07:45   transistors stops working and we're already getting into all sorts of problems on the

01:07:49   future sizes we're doing. So it will end. It's just a question of what does the slope

01:07:53   look like as we slide down into the doomsday scenario of CPUs that never get any better

01:08:00   and wait for quantum computing to save us all with an entirely new paradigm. But either

01:08:05   Anyway, this is not the type of story that I want to read.

01:08:07   I guess another old man story I'll be able to tell is like when I was a kid, computers

01:08:11   would get massively faster every year and it was amazing.

01:08:17   I remember those days.

01:08:18   Not anymore.

01:08:19   Doom on a Pentium.

01:08:21   It was like, "Can any computer be this fast?

01:08:24   How is it possible?

01:08:27   Last year this game was barely usable and now it goes faster than my eyeballs."

01:08:33   And that would happen every year.

01:08:35   That's true.

01:08:36   All right, tell me about AMD Ryzen.

01:08:39   So I wish I had more time to read up on this, but we haven't really talked much about AMD

01:08:44   on the show.

01:08:45   Occasionally we mention them, but in the context of Intel alternatives, but we've been doing

01:08:49   even less of that.

01:08:50   And it's mostly because despite doing very well in the glory part of PC CPUs back in

01:08:58   the day, the Athlon days, remember those? When AMD was actually giving Intel a run for

01:09:05   their money and was taking a lot of the crowns in those type of speeds and feed measurements

01:09:12   contests that were so popular back in the 90s. What is the best CPU for gaming or for

01:09:20   whatever? And look at these benchmarks and the highest end and so on and so forth. AMD

01:09:24   doing really well. And they were an important player and it was great to see the competition

01:09:29   and it forced Intel, I think, to get off of the Netburst architecture in Pentium 4 and come up

01:09:34   with the Core series, which was awesome. And then it was like, Intel took the lead back and

01:09:40   wiped AMD off the face of the earth. They came out with the Bulldozer architecture that was not

01:09:46   particularly successful and it was a bad choice. And they've always had sort of, you know,

01:09:50   financial problems as compared to the behemoth that is Intel and have never been competitive

01:09:58   with Intel's fabbing abilities.

01:09:59   And so we haven't heard anything about them for a long time.

01:10:02   And this seems like their comeback.

01:10:03   Like, "Hey, we're AMD.

01:10:05   We still know how to make good CPUs."

01:10:08   And so they have a line of CPUs that are competitive.

01:10:12   Like they're not the best in the world.

01:10:14   They're not like, "Oh, these are 10 times better than everything Intel has."

01:10:17   But it's a comeback story and people like a comeback story.

01:10:20   this company that was not, didn't seem to even be in the race. Like, people suggesting

01:10:27   Apple should just use AMD processors. That suggestion stopped many years ago and started

01:10:31   to become Apple should get AMD to make a new processor that's better than all their crappy

01:10:37   ones, right? Or Apple should work with AMD or Apple should make its own X80, but all

01:10:42   but never like, no one's suggesting like, you know what, Mac laptops would be better

01:10:46   if they took out the Intel CPUs and used AMD ones instead.

01:10:50   And so they have these series of CPUs which are significant mostly because A) they have

01:10:54   to come back and they're actually competitive and good and B) for the most part they're

01:10:58   cheaper than the Intel alternatives.

01:11:01   I looked at them briefly to see is there anything that would be great for a Mac Pro.

01:11:05   No, they're not Mac Pro caliber things.

01:11:08   But they do have a lot of cores for a low price with a reasonable power envelope and

01:11:12   And I don't think this means Apple will look at them any more than they did in the past

01:11:16   because of ancillary issues and because who knows what Intel's roadmap looks like versus

01:11:21   AMD's roadmap.

01:11:22   But I'm excited to see AMD back in the mix because despite the fact that Intel seems

01:11:28   to be getting its butt kicked all over the map by ARM processors and mobile and everything

01:11:33   having to do with that because all of Intel's mobile efforts have not really gone anywhere

01:11:39   and they're not particularly competitive and they're just lucky to get like a radio chip

01:11:43   that in Apple's iPhones at this point and every day they must — I forget who did this,

01:11:49   maybe the CEO had already left — regret the sale of their arm holdings when they had

01:11:52   the X scale processor of the arm things, Intel got rid of that because they wanted to do

01:11:55   everything x86.

01:11:57   Anyway, I like seeing a competitor for Intel on the high end as well because competition

01:12:05   is good, and I hope this spurs Intel to redouble its efforts to stay ahead of the game and

01:12:14   to find ways to get more performance, and to find ways to get to the next process size,

01:12:17   and to widen that gap again between them and AMD. Not that I'm saying AMD's only purpose

01:12:22   in life is to make Intel stuff better, but for the foreseeable future I don't see Apple

01:12:26   switching to AMD unless they're asking them to make their very own custom chips. And so

01:12:31   for my purposes, AMD exists to give PC hobbyists

01:12:35   a cool alternative to build PCs with

01:12:37   and to make the processes that are gonna be in my Macs

01:12:40   hopefully better.

01:12:41   - Cool.

01:12:42   - Sounds about right.

01:12:43   - Does it make you wanna build a PC?

01:12:45   - No. - No.

01:12:46   - What makes you wanna build a PC is Xeons.

01:12:49   If I ever, like, you know, a lot of people build PCs

01:12:54   and like a lot of the Hackintosh guides and stuff out there

01:12:57   and price comparisons are all about this class of hardware.

01:13:00   They're about like, you know, iMac class CPUs.

01:13:03   You know, the Intel like, you know,

01:13:05   4000 series with the K on the end.

01:13:08   Like, those are really high powered CPUs for desktops.

01:13:11   They're really nice.

01:13:12   But Apple already makes those.

01:13:15   They already, you know, ship computers with those

01:13:18   and keep them reasonably up to date most of the time.

01:13:21   They're called iMacs.

01:13:22   And the iMac 5K is a wonderful computer.

01:13:24   I'm talking to you on it right now.

01:13:26   With the exception of my image retention issues

01:13:28   on the display, which everyone says

01:13:30   they're actually not solved in the most recent ones.

01:13:32   With the exception of that,

01:13:33   it's been a wonderful computer for me

01:13:35   and I expect it to serve me still for a while

01:13:39   until something faster comes out,

01:13:41   which barely, really hasn't happened.

01:13:43   The problem is I want something faster.

01:13:45   I want more than four cores.

01:13:47   I want higher performance

01:13:49   than what the consumer line can offer me.

01:13:53   So I've only ever been tempted to build a Hackintosh,

01:13:56   not to give myself a cheaper iMac,

01:13:59   which I understand why people do that, that makes sense.

01:14:03   But to give me basically a Mac

01:14:06   that Apple does not even sell,

01:14:10   and that is a modern Mac Pro.

01:14:13   - Well, you can get an eight-core Ryzen for $329.

01:14:16   - That, okay. - That is way cheaper

01:14:19   than the equivalent eight-core Intel chip.

01:14:21   - That is true.

01:14:23   I don't know, I guess I'd take a look at it,

01:14:25   if I was to build a Hackintosh.

01:14:27   I was thinking like for Apple's purposes, like for an iMac,

01:14:30   'cause again, I don't think any of these are suitable

01:14:32   for as far as I'm aware for a laptop chips or whatever,

01:14:35   Intel still has that wrapped up,

01:14:36   but for kind of like the,

01:14:39   what we used to call desktop class CPU's

01:14:40   where it's not the Xeons,

01:14:41   but it's not in the power envelope.

01:14:43   But like the thing that you could stick in an iMac

01:14:44   'cause it's big and has lots of fans

01:14:46   and what we currently have in the iMac,

01:14:48   I think you could get either a better processor

01:14:52   in the same envelope or an equally good processor

01:14:55   for hundreds less dollars going with AMD.

01:14:58   Again, not that I think Apple will do this

01:15:00   because of ancillary reasons and other chip sets

01:15:02   and Thunderbolt and just general relationships with them.

01:15:05   But it shows me that there is once again competition

01:15:08   in the market because before,

01:15:09   GNOME was like, oh, you shouldn't be using that.

01:15:11   If we were saying we shouldn't use

01:15:12   this particular Intel CPU and iMac,

01:15:14   we were saying you should use some other Intel CPU instead.

01:15:16   We weren't saying you should use something from AMD

01:15:19   or something like that.

01:15:20   And now you can say that.

01:15:21   There's products on the market to say,

01:15:25   Apple, here is an alternative for your iMacs.

01:15:28   And I know you're probably not gonna do it,

01:15:29   but what it does show is that Intel perhaps

01:15:31   is not serving your needs as well as they could

01:15:33   because clearly it is technically and financially possible

01:15:36   to make a chip that would make Marco happier.

01:15:38   So why don't you do that?

01:15:40   - Yeah, I mean like most of my problems

01:15:42   don't lie with the processor companies.

01:15:44   Intel's good enough for me.

01:15:46   My problem lies in Apple's inability to ship hardware.

01:15:49   - So does that cover our Xeon Gold then or no?

01:15:53   - No, the Xeon Gold is the chip they're supposed to use,

01:15:56   but they won't.

01:15:57   - Okay.

01:15:59   - I have not read up on the Xeon Gold,

01:16:01   other than the part that I pasted into the show notes.

01:16:04   - It's Skylake EP, it's the Skylake EP Xeons,

01:16:06   which is the line of chips that would be most appropriate

01:16:10   to put in a new Mac Pro.

01:16:13   But they're probably not going to do that,

01:16:15   so therefore I have nothing to,

01:16:18   I haven't even looked too far into these,

01:16:20   because in the past I've looked into what Skylake E

01:16:23   was going to have, and it is truly awesome, it's wonderful.

01:16:28   But it's just, I don't know, to me it's kind of even,

01:16:32   it's almost sad or painful to even read about this processor

01:16:35   because I know that--

01:16:36   - To know this is out there,

01:16:37   but that you can't buy a machine with a minute.

01:16:39   - Exactly, like, I just,

01:16:42   whatever has been clogging up Apple, I hope it gets out,

01:16:47   and they start shipping hardware again,

01:16:49   because something's wrong.

01:16:52   Like something is deeply wrong at that company.

01:16:55   Where is all the effort going?

01:16:58   That's what I wanna know.

01:16:59   'Cause it's sure not going into the Mac.

01:17:01   It's sure not going into the Apple TV.

01:17:04   It's sure not going into the iPad.

01:17:05   Some of it, but not much of it is going into the watch.

01:17:07   Like where is it going?

01:17:09   Some of it's gonna be the phone obviously,

01:17:11   but is the entire company only capable

01:17:13   of keeping the phone up to date at a reasonable pace?

01:17:15   Which even that is kind of questionable.

01:17:16   - I think a ton of it's going into the phone.

01:17:17   - Sure. - I think a huge amount

01:17:18   of it's going into the phone. - But they're a big company.

01:17:20   where the hell is everything else?

01:17:23   That's what I wanna know.

01:17:24   And until we get something-- - Self-driving car software.

01:17:27   - Even that, like, that's easily a separatable thing.

01:17:30   Like, where is the entire company going?

01:17:34   Something's wrong.

01:17:36   That's all I can say is something is deeply wrong

01:17:40   and needs to change.

01:17:41   But that's, I know that's not very helpful.

01:17:44   But when you have a year like 2016 in the product line,

01:17:48   something's really, really wrong.

01:17:50   2017 has a lot of checks to cash,

01:17:53   and we'll see if they do.

01:17:55   I hope they do.

01:17:56   But we haven't heard a lot of promising info so far

01:17:59   to suggest that they will, except Tim Cook's vague promises.

01:18:01   - Did you see that thing I retweeted earlier today

01:18:04   of someone was doing Swift compilation benchmarks?

01:18:08   Like how long does it take to compile a bunch of Swift--

01:18:09   - Yeah, it was LinkedIn, yeah.

01:18:11   - And the two-core Mac Mini beat the highest-end

01:18:14   trashcan Mac Pro.

01:18:15   - Yeah, I mean, granted, that's because of problems

01:18:18   in the Swift compiler, I think.

01:18:19   It's not like, that is not because the Mac Mini's faster.

01:18:22   - I know, but here's what this shows.

01:18:24   It doesn't show the quality of the hardware,

01:18:26   it shows support for the hardware.

01:18:28   Obviously there is something not allowing the compiler

01:18:32   to take advantage of this hardware.

01:18:33   In the same way that very often there were weird retina

01:18:36   issues with the Mac Pro because it is such a rare machine

01:18:39   and so few people have them, that OS support for it,

01:18:42   and just in general, the software, whether it's the OS

01:18:46   or the applications, have no expectation of ever running

01:18:49   of trashcan because there's so few of them.

01:18:50   So it's not, not only is it not optimized for it, but it doesn't even take advantage

01:18:53   of the hardware that's there.

01:18:55   It's like the worst case scenario of like, you know, you get weird PC hardware, but Windows

01:18:58   doesn't support it well, only this is Apple and this is, you know, they have a limited

01:19:01   line of hardware and like that's all I've ever heard from trashcan Mac Pro users is

01:19:06   that they feel left out of the rest of the Apple ecosystem because all of these software

01:19:13   updates and application updates and OS updates pretend that they don't exist.

01:19:17   So any weird problems they have don't go away, don't get fixed, and new software doesn't

01:19:22   take advantage of all the cores that they have and so on and so forth.

01:19:25   Which is sad because that's exactly how it's supposed to be.

01:19:28   You put out this exotic piece of hardware and don't worry about it because you make

01:19:31   the OS too and a bunch of the applications as well.

01:19:35   You can make sure that it is leveraged and that you take advantage of it.

01:19:37   And when that doesn't happen, you just have an exotic piece of hardware that gets worse

01:19:41   over time.

01:19:42   And eventually you've got Mac Minis beating you in a compilation benchmark and you're

01:19:45   and you're like, "Why?"

01:19:47   (laughing)

01:19:48   - No, again, I really think that's like Xcode

01:19:51   and the compiler having bad settings.

01:19:53   But the point, your larger point about maintenance

01:19:57   and support does stand.

01:19:58   I mean, people say, "Look at Apple,

01:20:01   "they have all the money in the world,

01:20:02   "why can't they do X?"

01:20:04   Well, it wasn't that long ago that Microsoft

01:20:06   sold all the money in the world,

01:20:07   and they had two decades where they did almost nothing.

01:20:11   Microsoft had a very, very long span

01:20:13   where they could not produce anything even good,

01:20:17   let alone great.

01:20:19   And it's arguable whether they've come out of that yet,

01:20:23   but they're trying, they're doing a lot better now.

01:20:26   They're doing a lot better than they were,

01:20:28   like in the Windows Vista era,

01:20:31   like first leading up to Vista and then Vista itself.

01:20:35   Microsoft had all the money in the world,

01:20:38   but simply could not manage to ship great things

01:20:43   because of other problems, because of mismanagement,

01:20:46   because of internal problems, whatever the case was,

01:20:50   Microsoft had just no ability to apply their money

01:20:54   into creating good products reliably.

01:20:57   And I think we are at that point now with Apple.

01:20:59   It is very, very hard to look at the output of Apple

01:21:02   over the last couple of years and say otherwise.

01:21:05   They're a company that can produce good things sometimes,

01:21:08   but increasingly that's the exception, not the norm.

01:21:11   And that's really, really worrisome to me.

01:21:14   One of the ways that Microsoft got out of it, or got out of their funk, aside from changing

01:21:18   management stuff, was they tried a lot of different things.

01:21:21   Most of which failed, but they tried a lot of them.

01:21:24   And I think, you know, if I look at what was the success story that was able to convince

01:21:31   Microsoft itself and the outside world that Microsoft could conceivably do good things

01:21:35   again, I feel like it was the Xbox.

01:21:38   Because that was a weird market.

01:21:39   the hell is Microsoft making a game console, right? And it, you know, it struggled and

01:21:45   they had to learn this new business in the same way that Apple kind of had to learn the

01:21:48   new business of cell phones and they didn't, you know, it's not comparable to the iPhone

01:21:52   obviously in terms of the scope of its success and how important it was to, you know, because

01:21:56   it was just another game console for the most part, although it had its own innovations.

01:21:59   But it, of all the things they did, they tried so many things, so many different mobile phone

01:22:04   strategies, so many different tablet and pen computing, like they were so close to so many

01:22:08   But because they kept trying all these different things,

01:22:11   you know, I don't even remember half the things they did,

01:22:13   that sidekick company that they bought

01:22:14   with little tardy smartphone thing that they sold.

01:22:17   But Xbox, of all things, like unquestionably,

01:22:22   was a success in its market, in a very difficult market

01:22:26   that has killed many a company

01:22:28   who have tried to enter it and be successful.

01:22:30   And so I think Apple probably continues to know

01:22:37   Continues to need to needs to continue to do what it seems to have been doing and like be willing to try it like the watch

01:22:43   Is a good example try a watch maybe it's gonna be awesome

01:22:46   Maybe you want or whatever but but do it like we don't need to be I don't think we need to be convinced that Apple

01:22:50   can still do great things because you know the Apple watch is

01:22:54   Successful as it may or may not be it's you know

01:22:58   I think it's a big step up for the the smartwatch market and in many ways has come to

01:23:04   not redefine that market, but sort of pin down what people expect from smart watches to the point where smart watches

01:23:10   are very much now

01:23:13   aping some of the looks and features of Apple's things if only to to capitalize on their you know their marketing cachet

01:23:20   But self-driving cars all sorts of things that we say why is Apple even doing that?

01:23:25   All you need is one or two of them to hit for it to be worthwhile

01:23:29   Thus far none of them have been big successes

01:23:32   But if Apple was in a Microsoft type situation, we would all be looking at the watch or the AirPods say see Apple can make

01:23:38   Great things again. Apple's not down that low when we see the AirPods were like, yes

01:23:41   That's what Apple should be doing and that's what we expected you right versus we are super surprised that you've made a successful good product

01:23:47   We're not surprised. It's what we expect. We still expect we still have high expectations of Apple

01:23:51   We still have we still hold them to high standards and I think that's good

01:23:54   But I also like that's why I don't want to be too down on all the weird stuff Apple is doing it

01:24:00   I know it's easy to do the trade-offs like, "Oh, you should just be making Macs better

01:24:03   because that's what I like," or whatever.

01:24:04   But as you pointed out, Marco, for all we know, those are entirely separate things,

01:24:08   and it's not like they lack the money.

01:24:09   So as long as it's not literally the people who are going to make the Mac Pro who are

01:24:12   now making self-driving car software, like, go for it.

01:24:15   Well, more power to you.

01:24:17   Eventually, we made it to be the point where we're looking for Apple's Xbox, and maybe

01:24:23   – I was going to say, maybe Apple should just make a gaming console, but they're

01:24:26   really terrible at gaming, so don't do that.

01:24:28   Once they buy Nintendo and the show finally comes to an end, because the apocalypse that

01:24:34   will happen if that comes to pass.

01:24:38   Yeah, I'm not as down on Apple as you are, Marco.

01:24:43   I continue to believe that they can come out of it.

01:24:44   I think Microsoft is a great example that no matter how low you go, there's always something

01:24:48   great you can do.

01:24:49   And I would hold up Azure as an example of that too, and a lot of the DevTools stuff

01:24:52   that Microsoft has been doing.

01:24:53   They had a lot of smart people, they had a lot of great tech.

01:24:55   It was just a matter of finding a way to channel that in a productive way while also continuing

01:25:02   to milk the cash cow that is their terrible enterprise software.

01:25:09   My main concern here is that 2016 was a really bad year for Apple from the public point of

01:25:16   view.

01:25:17   And Tim can say stuff like, "Oh, we have stuff coming.

01:25:19   Don't worry.

01:25:20   Just because we don't see it doesn't mean we're not working on it."

01:25:21   But that doesn't mean anything.

01:25:24   And it just seems like there's these areas

01:25:26   of Apple product development that have stalled

01:25:28   or that have taken way too long.

01:25:31   And there seems to be not only no end in sight,

01:25:34   but no changes that would suggest that there would be

01:25:38   a change of policy or a change of results coming.

01:25:42   And so what I want is by the end of 2017,

01:25:45   I think there's a handful of big hotspot areas

01:25:51   that if they are still lacking,

01:25:54   I wanna see somebody get fired.

01:25:57   I know it's not cool to talk about Apple executives

01:25:59   and SVPs and talk about them personally

01:26:01   and say who should get fired,

01:26:02   but I think things are bad enough now

01:26:04   that heads have to roll if certain things don't get fixed.

01:26:08   And I would say maybe the list would be Mac desktops,

01:26:11   hardware, iPhone design,

01:26:14   like if that new iPhone does not come out this fall

01:26:17   and they have another year of the iPhone 6 design

01:26:20   and general form factor, that's a problem, right?

01:26:24   If Mac desktops do not get any kind of meaningful update

01:26:27   during this year, that's a big problem.

01:26:29   I would say iPad software, like multitasking on the iPad

01:26:34   is one of these areas where that needs to be improved

01:26:36   significantly in some way.

01:26:38   I would say Siri, the quality of Siri, the reliability,

01:26:41   the intelligence of Siri needs to be improved,

01:26:43   and maybe I'd throw in TV content deals,

01:26:45   as we talked about earlier, 'cause those have also

01:26:46   installed forever and the Apple TV is suffering greatly.

01:26:50   So those things, if all of those don't have

01:26:53   meaningful improvements by the end of 2017,

01:26:57   then that will be a very long time

01:26:59   during which these things have not improved

01:27:01   and desperately need to, and somebody high up

01:27:04   needs to get fired or resign at that point.

01:27:07   - Well, you would like that to happen,

01:27:09   but if the rest of the world says,

01:27:12   "Hey, record iPhone sales, here's a 10% bump

01:27:15   "to your stock price, Apple."

01:27:16   Apple is doing great from the perspective of investors and other people who have, you

01:27:22   know, the broader world that has expectations of what Apple is supposed to do, which is

01:27:25   sell a lot of iPhones for a high price.

01:27:27   They're doing that really, really well so far.

01:27:30   And everything we're talking about is tiny little slivers of the giant pie wedge that

01:27:35   is the revenue of Apple.

01:27:37   Well, no, it's not.

01:27:38   Because look, Microsoft did really well under Steve Ballmer financially for a long time.

01:27:44   He had record quarters, record sales,

01:27:46   as the product line just stagnated and crumbled,

01:27:50   and the quality, the foundation the company was built on

01:27:53   crumbled, and the world around it moved on

01:27:56   to this massive new world of mobile,

01:27:58   and they totally missed it

01:27:59   because they were not being managed properly.

01:28:02   So the fact that they keep selling record quarters

01:28:06   is not good enough for Apple.

01:28:08   - But what I'm saying is executives don't get fired

01:28:11   when your stock price goes up in general.

01:28:13   All right, so I'm saying like,

01:28:15   whether you think it's the right thing to do

01:28:17   or what you would do versus what is actually gonna happen.

01:28:20   'Cause the only thing we've seen executives

01:28:21   get canned for at Apple is not getting along

01:28:23   with other executives, that's forestall,

01:28:25   not being like a cultural fit or like flailing

01:28:28   and not being a success like whatever Papermaster

01:28:30   and those people who were there for a very short time.

01:28:32   What would it take for a long timer to get fired?

01:28:36   I mean, I think we've seen with the reshuffling,

01:28:37   not firing, but like, we don't know what's going on

01:28:40   that reshuffling that they've done various times, but surely that reshuffling is elevating

01:28:45   some people and minimizing other people within the company enough so that they all stay there,

01:28:52   but still affecting them. You're not going to see a big name executive get fired when

01:29:04   every kind of metric you can put on the company is looking good, because that's just not how

01:29:08   big companies work. Now arguably, like you said, they're making a big mistake, sure you're

01:29:12   figuring out how to make more money out of the iPhone, but what about the future, blah

01:29:15   blah blah, but they have answers for all that. Well, in the future we have all these super

01:29:17   projects that you don't know about plus the car crap and stuff like that, and maybe they'll

01:29:20   hit it, maybe they won't, like it's not like they had their heads in the sand, right? But

01:29:25   I don't, what I'm saying is that don't get your hopes up for that to happen, right? Even

01:29:31   if none of the things you listed happen, but they still have like record iPhone sales again

01:29:36   and the ASP goes up again, no one's getting fired.

01:29:40   I mean, if whoever was responsible for getting a skinny-model TV deal hasn't been fired yet,

01:29:46   another year of not getting it is not going to make a difference, to give an example that's

01:29:49   relevant to the things we just talked about, because obviously it's not important enough

01:29:53   to the future of the company.

01:29:55   And in other areas like the phone—not the phone, the watch—it's hard to tell exactly

01:29:59   how the watch is doing because Apple's being cagey about it, but I feel like the watch

01:30:02   is on a slow burn, right?

01:30:05   It's not a super duper success like the iPhone was,

01:30:07   but even the iPhone wasn't a super duper success

01:30:09   in its first year or two, right,

01:30:10   or the iPod or anything like that.

01:30:12   But Apple is standing behind the watch and working on it,

01:30:14   and things seem like they're going

01:30:16   in the right direction with the watch.

01:30:17   It is getting better, people like it more,

01:30:19   it is finding a place in the market.

01:30:21   - Yeah, I actually would agree with that.

01:30:23   There is a reason why the watch didn't make my hit list,

01:30:25   because it actually, it is not amazing on all terms.

01:30:30   It has lots of asterisks on it,

01:30:32   but overall it is healthy,

01:30:35   and it does seem to be on the right track.

01:30:37   - And so the Apple that is still willing to nurture

01:30:40   a product like that, even the iPad,

01:30:43   which arguably they're nurturing and helping along,

01:30:46   and they're trying to get it,

01:30:48   come on, come on little product, you can do it.

01:30:50   Maybe they're not quite doing the right things,

01:30:51   but the fact that they're standing behind those,

01:30:53   and all the rumblings we hear about AR and stuff like that,

01:30:57   I do see a lot of encouraging things of,

01:31:00   How is Apple fostering the development of what could be eventually big important businesses

01:31:08   and how patient they're being with it?

01:31:10   Most of our frustration is with pre-existing businesses that seem like they are neglected,

01:31:15   right?

01:31:16   And because we like those products.

01:31:17   But I don't know enough about the executives to say someone should be fired.

01:31:22   I think if I had to restructure/restaff a bunch of things, you know what?

01:31:29   MyPix is all server-side stuff.

01:31:32   That part of the company is obviously in the most need, and I don't know who's in charge

01:31:36   of that, and I don't know who needs to be in charge of it, but Apple should have bought

01:31:39   Google long ago and given all the responsibility to all their server-side stuff for Google

01:31:42   because they know what the hell they're doing, and Apple does not yet.

01:31:45   They're getting better, but not fast enough.

01:31:47   What's getting better faster, Apple at services or desktop Linux?

01:31:52   Apple at services because desktop Linux is going nowhere.

01:31:58   But I can't pin that to a particular group or executive.

01:32:01   And I think there has been restructuring this.

01:32:03   Seeing Apple present at like Mezos conferences and stuff

01:32:06   is showing that that is actually going

01:32:07   in the right direction.

01:32:08   They're just so far behind

01:32:09   that it's very difficult to catch up.

01:32:10   But for all the other things, like even the Mac things,

01:32:13   I don't feel like the people who are involved

01:32:15   in Mac hardware, like, I don't know.

01:32:19   I don't know where the blame lies for that.

01:32:21   It seems like priorities that would be set above the level

01:32:24   of people working on the Mac stuff, right?

01:32:25   Like I bet everyone who's working on the Mac

01:32:28   loves the Mac and wants it to be awesome.

01:32:29   And I bet a lot of people who are involved in the Mac

01:32:32   love the Mac and want it to be awesome,

01:32:33   but it's clear that the pace of product releases

01:32:38   and innovation and choices about the particular mixes

01:32:41   of the products are not satisfying

01:32:42   a certain class of Mac users,

01:32:43   and we find that unsatisfying.

01:32:46   And even for the people that is satisfying,

01:32:47   I feel like their releases are slower,

01:32:50   which is not good from anybody's perspective

01:32:52   that we wanna see new, better things faster.

01:32:56   But I wouldn't fire anyone involved in the Mac organization, right?

01:32:59   I feel like that's a priority set at a higher level.

01:33:01   And I wouldn't fire Tim Cook because of all the good things that we just listed, the phone

01:33:05   and the watch and trying to figure out how to make the iPad better.

01:33:09   Yeah, I'm -- I have -- too have hopes for this year, and I found last year disappointing.

01:33:17   But I think I'm more optimistic than you are that these are all eminently fixable problems,

01:33:23   and I am encouraged by efforts like the watch.

01:33:28   - Yeah, and furthermore, I don't entirely get

01:33:31   what firing somebody really accomplishes

01:33:33   other than making you feel better

01:33:35   that somebody's paying for what you don't like.

01:33:38   And it certainly would presumably change course of Apple,

01:33:43   at least slightly, if that executive was high enough.

01:33:48   But I mean, we don't know what's going on

01:33:51   behind the curtain.

01:33:52   We don't know if they're playing a long game that will revolutionize the Mac, or revolutionize something else,

01:33:59   or just create a whole new thing that we can't even fathom.

01:34:03   We don't know what they're doing behind closed doors, and I just feel like seeing a head roll, or demanding a head roll,

01:34:10   I don't know that that's necessarily going to really change anything.

01:34:13   I mean, just because one or even a couple people leave, or are told to leave,

01:34:18   You don't move a ship that big without moving the rudder a lot.

01:34:24   And one person can only move the rudder but so much, unless they're like Steve Jobs or

01:34:28   Tim Cook.

01:34:29   I think the reason why I want to see something change, if all these things still continue

01:34:33   to fail at the end of this year, is that if no heads roll, if no one changes jobs, if

01:34:40   nothing really suggests that anything went wrong, then that is Apple tacitly telling

01:34:46   in the world and possibly themselves internally, this is fine. This is how we wanted things

01:34:52   to go. It's one thing if the reason why all these things are in neglect right now is because

01:34:58   lots of things have gone wrong or somebody really messed up or somebody made a terrible

01:35:02   decision or took a bad risk or something like that. It's another thing if these things are

01:35:08   all this way in this state of neglect because that's considered okay. So if something,

01:35:17   if there's somebody who like, whose job changes, for instance, the role of the app

01:35:22   store recently got taken out of its previous organization and moved under Phil Schiller.

01:35:27   And in the like eight years or whatever it was that it was under the previous organization,

01:35:32   nothing happened. It was just stagnant and had lots of problems. And it's been under

01:35:36   Schiller for about a year now and lots of improvements have happened already and there's

01:35:41   you know they're at a great pace so obviously that was an area where something was really

01:35:46   not working right it was had a lot of problems it got moved to different executives so effectively

01:35:51   the old executive was like you know presumably like removed from it in some kind of action

01:35:55   you know or some kind of decision and then under the new executive things change because

01:36:01   something wasn't going right so that was the recognition internally to the company that

01:36:06   this is not working, this is not good enough,

01:36:09   we're gonna change it so it can be good enough.

01:36:12   And so if nothing changes in this list of things,

01:36:16   that you know, Mac desktops, iPhone, yes,

01:36:18   if nothing changes, and we end these things

01:36:22   are still being neglected almost a year from now,

01:36:25   after being neglected for the last few years,

01:36:28   then that to me is a sign that Tim Cook,

01:36:32   and everyone beneath him, believes that is good enough.

01:36:36   So that ultimately rests on Tim.

01:36:38   Whether the problem is Tim himself or somebody below him,

01:36:41   that is on Tim to manage, to supervise,

01:36:45   and to fix if there are problems.

01:36:47   You know, when there are problems between Forstall

01:36:50   and Ive and whoever, whatever the drama was there,

01:36:54   Tim saw there was a problem here and he fixed it.

01:36:57   And whether you like his solution or not,

01:36:59   he took an action because things were not good enough.

01:37:01   He fixed it.

01:37:03   If nothing changes in these areas,

01:37:07   and they're still being horribly neglected

01:37:09   in another year from now,

01:37:11   then that is Tim Cook implicitly saying,

01:37:13   "This is good enough."

01:37:15   - Yeah, but that's a strategic choice though.

01:37:17   If he chooses to de-emphasize the Mac

01:37:19   or cancel the Mac entirely,

01:37:20   that is a strategic choice for the company.

01:37:22   They'll make all of us sad, but--

01:37:23   - Yup. - It's not saying

01:37:24   we think this is good enough, it's saying,

01:37:26   "Yeah, we're de-prioritizing that

01:37:28   "and shifting our efforts elsewhere

01:37:30   "because we don't think that's important

01:37:32   to the future growth of the company, right? Which we hate and we don't like, but it's not the same

01:37:37   as saying, "We're trying to put everything we had behind the Mac." That's the difference in

01:37:42   intention. We are trying to make the Mac the best it could possibly be, and this is our best effort.

01:37:48   I'm not even asking for that. I'm asking for basic maintenance.

01:37:50   Yeah, well, again, because if they were trying to say, "We are trying to maintain the Mac in

01:37:56   the fashion that it has been maintained in the past," and they think this is satisfactory,

01:38:00   you're right, that they're wrong on that. But if instead they're saying this is exactly the amount

01:38:05   of support for the Mac that we want, this is exactly how we want it to go, these are exactly

01:38:08   the products we want out of them, we're very happy with the results, this is our strategic direction,

01:38:12   we're all sad and mad about it, but from a company, you know, from the perspective of is Tim Cook

01:38:17   making the right decision for the company, it's arguable that he is because the Mac is clearly not

01:38:21   the future of Apple, right, it's just this thing that we all like and use, right, and if it means

01:38:25   means that more time and energy and money is available for whatever the actual future

01:38:32   level is going to be, whether it's going to be the watch or AR or self-driving car software

01:38:35   or who knows what, that is probably the correct strategic direction for the company despite

01:38:39   how angry it makes us.

01:38:41   I think it is entirely a question of what their intent is because it's like judging

01:38:46   whether it's a success or a failure, we see what the results are and if that is the intended

01:38:51   results then they're getting exactly what they want and then our quibble is just with

01:38:54   strategic direction. Whereas if the intended result is very different than what we're actually

01:38:58   getting, then that's the company failing to execute successfully on its own plan. And because

01:39:04   Apple doesn't really tell you what its own plans are in terms of how it emphasizes product lines

01:39:08   and stuff, other than the sort of the PR problem that we get about, you know, we love the Mac,

01:39:14   blah, blah, blah, which really says nothing. It's very difficult to judge whether they are failing

01:39:19   or a successfully executing strategy we don't like. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

01:39:23   I concur that I am disappointed with the way the Mac has been treated, and I would like

01:39:30   to see it be different.

01:39:32   But just because my engine isn't revved by a touch bar doesn't mean the touch bar is

01:39:38   wrong.

01:39:39   It doesn't mean that it was a failure.

01:39:40   It doesn't mean that Apple isn't innovating.

01:39:42   It doesn't mean it's not a magical, awesome improvement.

01:39:46   All it means is it's not right for me.

01:39:49   And for me to hypothetically say, "Oh, that Apple's doing everything wrong," or that,

01:39:54   you know, "The head of Mac hardware should be fired strictly because of the touch bar,"

01:39:58   which is not what you're saying, Marco.

01:39:59   That's not at all what I'm saying.

01:40:00   No, that's not what I'm saying.

01:40:01   No, I know it's not.

01:40:02   I know it's not.

01:40:03   But I think what I'm trying—let me just rephrase and say that I think you're conflating

01:40:09   a disappointment with direction—this is what Jon was just alluding to—a difference

01:40:13   in direction, or disappointment in direction with a failure.

01:40:17   And that is not necessarily the case, just like Jon said.

01:40:20   I agree that I don't like the way things are going, but I think it's too strong to say

01:40:25   that it's a failure at this point.

01:40:28   It seems a little bit aggressive to me.

01:40:30   No, and I didn't say these things are all failures at this point.

01:40:33   I said that these are, you know, these are like, you know, checks that 2016 wrote for

01:40:37   2017 to cash.

01:40:39   And if 2017 goes through and these things are all still a problem, something needs to

01:40:44   change big time.

01:40:46   is it isn't, I'm not saying that a company

01:40:50   that's trying to maximize its revenue

01:40:51   and make itself a solid growth potential in the future

01:40:54   shouldn't change strategy.

01:40:56   What I am saying is that Apple does not ship (bleep).

01:41:00   Apple's entire brand and the reputation they've built up

01:41:04   over years and years and years is that they don't ship (bleep)

01:41:08   That Apple products are good, they are great.

01:41:12   And for them to keep saying that

01:41:13   have major areas of the product line that are really embarrassing or really customer

01:41:20   hostile even for years on end. That they keep selling just to scrape a little bit more profit

01:41:27   off the pavement before they just totally kill them. That is not what Apple should be

01:41:32   doing. For Apple, for Corporation X, sure, let Steve Ballmer run it then. Why isn't

01:41:40   Steve Ballmer running it? That's what they want to do, that's the goal, let him do

01:41:42   He's great at that, but that's not Apple. That's not good enough for Apple. It never has been and it shouldn't be now

01:41:47   Yeah, I mean in the grand scheme of things even though I'm actively arguing with you right now. I do

01:41:54   Largely agree with you. I think that you're right that 2016 wrote a lot of checks that I've yet to see 2017 cash

01:42:00   I just

01:42:03   What concerns me is I?

01:42:05   Wonder if you're putting Apple on a pedestal and if they don't release the most perfect Mac Pro ever

01:42:10   that that you're gonna still be fiery about it if they don't you know version bump the MacBook MacBook adorable

01:42:17   You're gonna be fiery about it truth be told I will be too but don't tell Marco

01:42:19   The MacBook adorable is only one year old. That's fine. Bye-bye my standards. That's totally fine

01:42:25   Yeah, and I mean also remember we're only one

01:42:28   Calendar quarter into the year yet. I mean there's still plenty of time left now in your defense Marco

01:42:34   Typically there is a March event of some sort and we are already halfway through March and there's been not even a

01:42:40   peep of a confirmation about it, which means they'll surely confirm it tomorrow before we release the episode.

01:42:45   But nevertheless, we haven't heard a March event yet, and that's slightly alarming, but it's only March.

01:42:52   We don't know what's in store for the rest of the year. And who knows? Our socks could be blown off at WWDC.

01:42:57   And typically they're at least...

01:42:59   My socks are at least blown a little bit forward, if not entirely off my feet to beat this analogy to death.

01:43:06   And so you never know what'll happen.

01:43:08   But I think we shouldn't get too fiery yet.

01:43:14   If after WWDC and we've seen the software updates and we still haven't seen much in

01:43:20   the way of hardware updates, okay, maybe we should start getting fiery.

01:43:23   But at this point, I'm not too concerned yet.

01:43:26   On the topic of trying to figure out intent, like basically is it a successful execution

01:43:32   of a strategy we disagree with or a failed execution of a strategy that we would support,

01:43:36   that type of thing?

01:43:37   The Mac Pro is actually a good example because on the idea of Apple not shipping things that

01:43:43   they would be proud of, right, the Mac Pro I think is the best example of it.

01:43:48   It's not that it was a bad product when it was introduced, it's actually really cool

01:43:51   and interesting, it's that if you keep shipping it for three years it becomes an embarrassment,

01:43:56   right?

01:43:57   And it is the type of embarrassment that like, look, there is no strategy that makes sense

01:44:02   with the image that Apple previously had, unless the new idea is we don't want Apple

01:44:05   to have that reputation, which doesn't make any sense, because everything else Apple does

01:44:08   and everything they say and everything they've always done is like, yes, we want to be the

01:44:11   company that has the reputation of shipping good stuff.

01:44:13   The Mac Pro is, they shouldn't still be selling it.

01:44:18   And I understand why they're why.

01:44:20   If you were to get someone up on stage and talk to them in a WODC talk show type interview

01:44:24   and say, "Why are you still shipping the Mac Pro?"

01:44:25   I guarantee you what they will say, and it's probably true, is, "Some vague answer about

01:44:32   how they had it they didn't plan for this like there was a strategy to do to

01:44:36   do something better and it didn't work out so that I would say there were they

01:44:38   would they would vaguely admit to some kind of failure there and they would say

01:44:41   but then why are you even still selling it they would say well because we have

01:44:44   customers who need a computer like this and actually believe it or not in case

01:44:49   you could probably believe it not selling this now piece of crap overpriced

01:44:53   computer would actually be worse for those customers than continuing to sell

01:44:56   it and then the only recourse you have that it's like okay but do you have

01:45:00   I still have to sell it for like eight grand.

01:45:01   And they'd be like, well, people buy it.

01:45:04   And that, you know, whatever,

01:45:05   Apple has never been ashamed of selling people things

01:45:07   for way too much money, but that's the situation they're in.

01:45:10   So I feel like the Mac Pro, to figure out,

01:45:12   is this a strategy we don't agree with,

01:45:13   or is this a failure?

01:45:14   There has to be a failure in there.

01:45:16   They're not gonna come and tell you exactly

01:45:17   what the failures are, you know what I mean?

01:45:18   Like they're not gonna say,

01:45:19   oh, here's what went wrong or whatever.

01:45:21   But that seems very clear to me.

01:45:23   There is no conscious strategy that Apple says,

01:45:25   you know what, we're gonna make Pro hardware

01:45:27   and then we're not gonna update it

01:45:27   for three or four years.

01:45:28   I do not believe that was ever Apple's strategy.

01:45:32   That is evidence of a failure.

01:45:34   How big a failure is that in the grand scheme of things?

01:45:36   I don't know or whatever.

01:45:38   But that is the only thing that seems clear from the outset.

01:45:40   Everything else you can say,

01:45:42   is it a failure to like ship,

01:45:45   make all your laptops thin and light or is that a strategy?

01:45:48   Or is it a failure to have computers

01:45:50   that aren't really that much better

01:45:51   than the ones they replace but are more expensive?

01:45:54   Or is that part of a strategy?

01:45:55   Like almost everything else I look at and I squint and say,

01:45:57   seems a lot like a strategy. Maybe a strategy I don't agree with personally from my tastes

01:46:01   and products or whatever, but it seems like a strategy. But the Mac Pro does not seem

01:46:05   like a strategy. It seems like a failure.

01:46:07   - Counterargument. The Mac Mini. Mac Mini is totally fine. They could update it. It's

01:46:12   really easily updated. It uses cheap component parts.

01:46:15   - That's a strategy.

01:46:16   - Well, and so their strategy was, let's put this thing out there, but because it doesn't

01:46:20   sell on very high volumes, let's never update it basically. Why couldn't that have been

01:46:24   the same strategy for the Mac Pro?

01:46:25   No, because the Mac Pro, the whole point of the Mac Pro is the biggest, fastest computer

01:46:29   for the most demanding workloads.

01:46:31   And the rest of Apple's product line, like the 5K Mac, has passed it by.

01:46:35   Like its role in the product line is to be the biggest, fastest, and most expensive.

01:46:39   The role of the Mac Mini is to be the cheapest and crappiest.

01:46:42   Success.

01:46:43   Like, you know, if you never update it, it exactly fills its role of the cheapest and

01:46:47   crappiest and you're just like, "Oh, this is a product Apple doesn't care about and

01:46:50   doesn't really care about updating."

01:46:51   That, I feel like Mac Mini looks totally like strategy to me, but there is no world in which

01:46:55   which is a strategy of like,

01:46:56   we're gonna make the biggest, fastest computer

01:46:58   and then never make it any faster

01:46:59   and the whole rest of our product line,

01:47:01   including eventually our watches,

01:47:02   are gonna be faster than this friggin' trash can.

01:47:04   That's not a strategy because of the slot

01:47:07   that the product goes in.

01:47:08   So it's gotta be a failure.

01:47:09   - I don't think we have enough

01:47:15   Tim Cook Apple history to know that.

01:47:16   I think there is very plausibly,

01:47:19   I think it was probably a failure of some kind,

01:47:22   But I think it's very plausibly also just a strategy

01:47:26   of how today's Apple deals with low-volume products.

01:47:31   - We need to write all these things down

01:47:32   so that we can wait in 20 years for the tell-all book.

01:47:35   We need to track down these long-retired

01:47:37   millionaire Apple executives.

01:47:39   What the hell happened with the Mac Pro?

01:47:41   Tell us, 'cause from the outside, we can't tell.

01:47:44   Was it just an Intel thing that you didn't get,

01:47:47   or the sales volume, or there was something like,

01:47:49   I don't know, what happened?

01:47:51   or did you have it designed and they were fatal flaws with this little triangle design

01:47:54   and you're just eating the cost on these GPU replacements and the new one you had planned

01:47:58   didn't work?

01:47:59   Like, what happened?

01:48:00   Whereas the Mac Mini, I feel like you're interviewing me like, "Yeah, no one cares about that computer.

01:48:03   It's low end."

01:48:04   And it compiles faster than the Mac Pro anyway.

01:48:08   Wow.

01:48:09   Oh, is there any show that we can't eventually get to the Mac Pro about?

01:48:12   Casey loves it.

01:48:13   That's the best.

01:48:15   It makes me so happy.

01:48:16   Thanks to our three sponsors this week, Eero, Betterment, and Squarespace.

01:48:21   And we'll see you next week.

01:48:23   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:48:30   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:48:35   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:48:40   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:48:46   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:48:51   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:48:56   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:49:00   So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:49:05   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:49:10   USA, Syracuse

01:49:12   It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:49:15   They didn't mean to, accidental (accidental)

01:49:20   Tech podcast so long

01:49:25   Can we can we please talk about something that'll make us happier, please?

01:49:28   Like the switch maybe hopefully possibly John. How do you like your switch?

01:49:32   It's hard to say how I like my switch because

01:49:36   This is supposed to be your happy place

01:49:40   Because as far as like I feel kind of bad because a lot of people who I know who are using the switch are all talking

01:49:46   about it and they're talking about the hardware and it's like

01:49:49   This is just a Zelda delivery device for me at this point kind of like it

01:49:53   You know my PlayStation 4 became my destiny delivery device

01:49:56   And in that capacity I wish as always that the hardware was faster because then I wouldn't have

01:50:04   Slowdowns in forested areas, and it's like I still find myself thinking can you imagine how?

01:50:11   You know how even better this game would be on the ps4, but in general

01:50:17   I don't spend much time dwelling in that because I'm really really loving Zelda. I think it's a great game. I enjoy it

01:50:23   I think about it when I'm not playing it. I can't wait to play it every time. I'm away from the game

01:50:27   And it's like watching a movie. I really don't think about the quality of my blu-ray player when I'm watching a good movie

01:50:32   I think about the movie so when I'm playing so I'm thinking about Zelda, and it's awesome, and it's great and my switch has

01:50:37   Literally never been held in my hands to play a game and has not left the dock since I got Zelda

01:50:43   So that's how I'm using my switch. It is I'm pretending that Nintendo is still releasing

01:50:48   TV connected consoles and not this hybrid portable thing and I'm perfectly happy with that eventually

01:50:54   I probably will take it out and try playing it handheld and see what that's like

01:50:57   But for now it is me a pro controller and Zelda and I'm loving it. No spoilers, please

01:51:04   you know, it's funny so I

01:51:06   played with two different people's switches my sister-in-law got one and she came over the evening of

01:51:13   of launch day. And then the following day I went to my friend Stee's house and played

01:51:19   with his for a little bit. And in, I guess, in a kind of opposite way, in that I don't

01:51:26   think I really want a canister to speak to because I don't really see how it will help

01:51:32   my life. I want to switch so badly, even though I know I'll play it for like a week and then

01:51:37   never look back because I just think this thing is so darn cool and I've been

01:51:43   super impressed by it. We actually hooked it up to my TV because my sister-in-law

01:51:47   said it is because she hadn't hooked it up to hers yet and I

01:51:51   thought that was super awesome. I played a few minutes of Zelda. I thought that

01:51:55   was really cool. I didn't play it enough to like really get into it but my

01:51:58   initial impressions were great. The hardware with the with the weirdly named

01:52:03   Joy-Cons, like I find that name to be a little bit peculiar, but the click that it makes

01:52:10   when you slide one of them in and removing it is so cool, and the kickstand is a little

01:52:14   chintzy or whatever, but it still gets the job done for the most part.

01:52:18   Everything about this hardware is so cool, and I really want one for no reason at all,

01:52:25   because I'm just not really a video game kind of guy.

01:52:30   But man, this thing is neat, and I'm super impressed by it.

01:52:32   And it's the first time I've lusted after a video game system since the original Wii,

01:52:38   which I did play a lot of for about a year and then I just never looked back.

01:52:42   But I've been super, super anxious to get my hands on one, even though...

01:52:47   Well, I mean, I could get my hands on one, I'm sure, but I know myself enough to know

01:52:52   that I'm just...

01:52:53   I'm in lust, I'm not in love.

01:52:55   But we'll see what happens over time.

01:52:56   Marco, you guys are, I guess, really...

01:52:58   Tiff got one, right?

01:52:59   So what have you thought?

01:53:02   we haven't really played it much. So I just came back from a trip, I left that trip shortly

01:53:08   after last week's show. The night before the trip I tried to buy and download Zelda, and

01:53:15   the credit card thing on Nintendo's website just kept failing and timing out and everything

01:53:20   – like, their whole website just sucked that night. It just, like, everything kept

01:53:24   failing. And so I wasn't able to buy it in time for the trip, and so I didn't bring

01:53:28   it because I'm like, you know, I have like, you know, I have Bomberman and that racing

01:53:32   game. Neither of which I've actually played yet. I just, because like, you know, buying

01:53:36   and installing this stuff, it all takes time and then I have to do something else. And

01:53:38   then I left for a trip and I'm like, well, I'm not going to bring this entire console

01:53:41   taking up space in my bag and one more thing to charge and everything else just for these

01:53:45   two kind of like, you know, second tier games. You know, if I could get Zelda before the

01:53:50   show, sure, I'll bring it, but I couldn't. So that's, so I didn't bring it. And now

01:53:54   Now we're back and I'm dealing with all the work I missed,

01:53:57   so I still haven't actually played it yet.

01:53:59   And I'd love to play it on my TV,

01:54:01   but I can't get a Pro Controller anywhere.

01:54:03   So that kind of breaks that as well.

01:54:05   I don't really want to use the weird little like--

01:54:06   - No, you can still play it, I was gonna say,

01:54:08   you can play it on your TV without a Pro Controller,

01:54:10   you just gotta use the Joy-Con.

01:54:11   So that, a lot of people have asked me

01:54:12   if I have like the left Joy-Con disconnecting thing.

01:54:15   I don't know, I don't use those things.

01:54:16   I use the Pro Controller and it works fine.

01:54:19   - Right, exactly.

01:54:20   - It does not disconnect.

01:54:21   - Yeah, so I need to get myself a Pro Controller.

01:54:24   to really enjoy this thing.

01:54:26   'Cause what I really want is to just,

01:54:27   is most of the time to play these games on my TV.

01:54:30   So once I get that, then let me know.

01:54:32   But I'm also, I suspect that these initial games I got

01:54:36   are probably not gonna be a lot of my time.

01:54:38   I'm not really into Zelda.

01:54:39   TIFF would probably play it, but I probably won't.

01:54:42   I'm more into like the racing and stuff games.

01:54:44   So when Mario Kart comes out, I'm very much into that.

01:54:47   But that's not out yet.

01:54:50   And like when the new Sonic thing comes out,

01:54:52   I'll be very much into that probably,

01:54:53   but that also isn't out yet.

01:54:55   Mario games, when those come out, but they also aren't.

01:54:58   (laughs)

01:54:59   Any kind of virtual console stuff

01:55:01   to maybe play some of the games that I've missed

01:55:04   since the Super Nintendo era or the N64 era,

01:55:07   to play some of the Mario games

01:55:08   that have come out in the middle,

01:55:09   if that becomes available and possible to do.

01:55:11   I'd love to do that, but I can't yet,

01:55:14   because they don't exist.

01:55:15   So eventually I expect to really enjoy this thing,

01:55:18   but right now I've barely used it,

01:55:19   because everything I've tried to do either failed

01:55:21   took too long and then I had to go on a trip.

01:55:23   I feel like there are like three obvious possibilities with this Zelda, this Zelda in particular.

01:55:28   One is you're a Super Zelda fan and you played all the 3D Zelda games and you love them,

01:55:32   you will also love this game.

01:55:33   So that's the easy case, that's why all the gaming press love it, that's why I love it,

01:55:37   right?

01:55:38   Two is you don't know a Zelda from a hole in the wall and you bought this Switch because

01:55:42   you saw one and thought it was neat and you get Zelda because it's like the, you know,

01:55:47   popular top tier game to get on launch and you start playing it and you just slowly,

01:55:54   gradually get lost in Zelda playing your version of what you think the Zelda game is supposed

01:56:00   to be about, maybe not even advancing the actual main quest storyline for a very long

01:56:05   time and spend like literally a year and a half consumed by this little toy box world

01:56:12   because you have never played a sandbox game before and you've never played a Zelda and

01:56:15   This is all entirely new to you, right?

01:56:17   And the third possibility is you've never played a Zelda.

01:56:20   You get this game, you try it, and you're like,

01:56:23   this seems big and confusing, not for me.

01:56:24   And I think that's what Marco's gonna think about.

01:56:26   It's like, eh, it's neat.

01:56:28   I can see how people might like it,

01:56:29   but not my type of game.

01:56:30   It probably also happened to Tiff

01:56:31   because it's very difficult, I feel like,

01:56:33   to play this Zelda game in particular,

01:56:36   in any Zelda game, in a casual way.

01:56:39   You're either going to know what you're getting into

01:56:42   and know you like this kind of game

01:56:44   or not know what you're getting into

01:56:45   and just be completely consumed because you don't have the antibodies for this type of

01:56:49   thing but you are the type of person who is entirely who does like this kind of game and

01:56:53   for that type of person like I can imagine sitting literally hundreds of hours into this

01:56:57   non multiplayer single-player completely entirely scripted deterministic game because you'll

01:57:03   just be like climbing trees and picking apples and cooking food and and exploring and occasionally

01:57:09   advancing this big overarching world story thing which may eventually get too hard for

01:57:13   you to do anyway.

01:57:16   Because if you've never done that before, this is amazing.

01:57:18   I've done all this stuff before and I'm amazed and excited and just want to go exploring

01:57:24   and do things and constantly getting distracted from advancing the main quest by all the other

01:57:29   things that you can do, whether they be official side quests or entirely different ones.

01:57:36   For an experience, it impresses experienced Zelda fans, but I think the best, the ideal

01:57:42   experiences for this to be your first Zelda and for you to be the type of person who loves

01:57:46   Zelda but you don't know it yet because you've never played one. This was your first Zelda

01:57:50   game? For some kid, this is going to be this kid's first Zelda game, it's going to blow

01:57:54   their mind. They're going to talk about this game like we talk about Mario 64, of being

01:57:57   like "Oh, so that's what 3D platforming is? Oh, I see. That's how 3D works." Like, completely

01:58:08   defining game type experience. So I'm excited by this, but I have dim hopes that Marco will

01:58:14   get anything out of it. And I'm not sure about Tiff because she's been hot and cold on the

01:58:18   other 3D Zelda games, so we'll see. But yeah, as with so many other game consoles that I

01:58:25   buy, if this was the only game I was ever allowed to play on the Switch, already worth

01:58:29   the money.

01:58:30   Hm. See, for me, I expect Mario Kart will probably be that game, if not one of the later

01:58:36   Marios. But yeah, we'll see.

01:58:37   Yeah, I've wondered when the Mario Kart comes out because I haven't played Mario Kart in a long time

01:58:43   And and my understanding is it's just like a slight refresh or something like that. But either way

01:58:48   What it comes out if I give that a shot

01:58:51   That might give me enough ammunition to buy the switch be and the reason I say that is not because I don't think I would

01:58:58   Love just Zelda

01:58:59   I think I would

01:59:00   But I view that as I would play it once and then be done and I don't know if it's worth what?

01:59:05   $300 for the Switch and like $70, $60 for the Zelda, so call it $400.

01:59:09   You would play it once in one sitting or you think you would finish the whole game?

01:59:12   No, no, no.

01:59:13   I'm saying over the course of like a month or two maybe I would finish the whole game,

01:59:16   but I don't know if I want to spend $400 on Zelda because I feel like I would play Zelda

01:59:20   and think, "Wow, that was really great.

01:59:21   I'm glad I did that," and then never look at the Switch again.

01:59:24   But if I see Mario Kart, which I know that I've loved previous Mario Kart games, if I

01:59:30   I see that and it's well reviewed and I get to play it on one of my friends' consoles

01:59:36   and I like it.

01:59:37   That might change things.

01:59:38   Additionally, I've never played Splatoon but I've heard nothing but universal praise

01:59:41   for it.

01:59:42   So I believe that's, again, like a refresher, a new version is coming for the Switch at

01:59:46   some point.

01:59:47   So maybe if I play that I'll think, "Oh, maybe this is worth it."

01:59:50   But sitting here now, I'm looking for a reason to spend my money on this thing and

01:59:55   I just can't come up with it yet.

01:59:56   If you're going to play that many games, though, and you're like, you're rallying

01:59:59   off of those things that you think you might play, like honestly it would be better for

02:00:01   you to get a PS4 because there are so many different choices in franchise.

02:00:06   The next game in my queue for example is Horizon Zero Dawn which has a terrible title, which

02:00:11   is also an open world type game but looks 100 times better because it's on PS4 and you

02:00:16   know, anyway, it's being compared to Zelda a lot, but on a PS4 you get that, you get

02:00:23   the Uncharted series, you get all the top tier games.

02:00:26   On Nintendo's thing, you just get Nintendo's top-tier games, so it is slimmer pickings,

02:00:30   and I feel like you would have a better experience on a "real" TV-connected console.

02:00:36   But for Nintendo-specific franchises, Mario Kart 8, I feel like I know what that's going

02:00:40   to be, because I already played it.

02:00:41   This is a deluxe version, right?

02:00:45   And for me, I still miss the driving mechanics of Double Dash, it's still my favorite, but

02:00:49   Mario Kart 8 was a really good Mario Kart, and just adding more tracks and everything

02:00:52   is also going to make it really good.

02:00:54   But I find as I get older, my tolerance for rubber banding AI in racing games is decreasing

02:01:00   mightily.

02:01:02   And because I was never particularly good at racing games, multiplayer is just another

02:01:07   avenue for me to feel frustrated because everyone I play online is 100 times better than I am.

02:01:13   So it almost becomes like a party game where it's only good when you're playing with other

02:01:18   people.

02:01:19   And even then, even within my own family, it's hard to find people who have...

02:01:22   Our skill ranges are too widely varied, right?

02:01:25   That's the problem.

02:01:26   And so, we could play a four player Mario Kart, but two to three people are going to

02:01:32   be really upset.

02:01:33   Because they're never going to win.

02:01:35   And that's bad.

02:01:36   But yeah, I'm not entirely sure that you should get a Switch, Casey.

02:01:44   I think probably, eventually Declan will tell you what you should get and you should just

02:01:49   do what he says.

02:01:50   That's my...

02:01:51   Yeah.

02:01:52   you which console you should get and why, and you should just listen to him and do that.

02:01:55   And then maybe you can, maybe he can show you the ropes and teach you some things.

02:02:00   Well, there's a couple things you're not considering, though. Like, number one, I classically was

02:02:04   a Nintendo kind of guy. I had everything up through and including the 64, and then, what

02:02:10   was it, GameCube, and then I did not have, then I had a Wii, and I didn't do anything

02:02:15   since then. You can't believe you skipped the GameCube,

02:02:17   man. So many good games. Such a good controller. To be fair, a lot of people skipped the GameCube.

02:02:22   Also true. It was less about the hardware more about me just not really being interested in games anymore

02:02:27   And and that's the other thing is that you know

02:02:30   You're probably right on paper that a ps4 would be a better like a more worthwhile purchase

02:02:34   But all of these top-tier games that that any normal human or any normal gamer would would want to play

02:02:42   I just don't really have much interest in like I know that I I have played at least one Zelda game

02:02:48   I played all of Ocarina of Time and a fair bit of whatever was on the Wii, if memory serves.

02:02:53   Skyward Sword? Where you wave the controller around to wave the sword?

02:02:58   No, maybe it wasn't the Wii then. I don't remember.

02:03:00   That's what I'm saying. I don't think it was the Wii.

02:03:01   I don't remember what it was. Maybe it was one for the GameCube, but I played it on the Wii.

02:03:06   It doesn't really matter.

02:03:06   Twilight Princess?

02:03:07   Yes, I think it was Twilight Princess, now that you say that. It doesn't really matter,

02:03:11   though. The point is that the couple that I've played, I've enjoyed.

02:03:14   But other than that, what appeals to me about the Switch is that I think it would be great for

02:03:20   the party games that I remember from when I was a kid from the Nintendo 64, like the equivalents

02:03:25   thereof. So like Mario Kart, things like Goldeneye, which I see Splatoon kind of filling that void.

02:03:32   You know what I mean? It's--I don't have a terrible interest in going online and playing

02:03:36   Strangers because I know I'll get just completely destroyed by eight-year-olds, and that's okay.

02:03:42   But having a bunch of friends or family or both over and playing sounds really appealing.

02:03:48   And I was super impressed, like God knows if this would work at all, or if it would

02:03:52   work well, but I was super impressed by the like trailer promo video or whatever that

02:03:59   came out in October where they had like a portable Switch, and that's redundant, but

02:04:05   a Switch not docked.

02:04:07   And they had like two people playing, each with their own Joy-Con, or I think there might

02:04:11   might have even been one where they had like four people playing or, or at certainly at

02:04:16   another point they had like a series of switches, switch I, whatever the plural is in this particular

02:04:21   context.

02:04:22   Yeah, switch I is correct.

02:04:23   Yeah, definitely.

02:04:24   That's definitely it.

02:04:25   The plural switch is switch you guys.

02:04:26   But anyway, they had, they had, you know, several switches all in like a circle and

02:04:30   presumably they were all like networked together.

02:04:32   There was another case where there's like, I think a basketball game where they were

02:04:35   back to back and they were, and there were a bunch of people playing simultaneously.

02:04:40   I have no interest in a basketball game. I don't remember what the group was playing.

02:04:45   It might have been Splatoon. But that sort of a thing is what makes the Switch most interesting

02:04:51   to me. And that portability, the fact that it can switch between being docked and undocked,

02:04:58   that to me is what I find so interesting about it. Maybe that's silly, maybe that's stupid,

02:05:03   but I mean, that's why emotions are not logic and logic is not emotional. It's just it's

02:05:08   the way I feel. I just think that that's what's really neat and interesting about it.

02:05:12   A lot of people are enjoying playing, portable playing, like within their own house, like

02:05:15   playing in bed. Yeah, yeah, seriously. No, I think that would apply to me, absolutely.

02:05:21   And I've done it with the Wii U when I was playing Mario Kart 8, for instance, and the

02:05:24   family wanted to watch the TV. I could continue to play Mario Kart 8 just on the Wii U gamepad.

02:05:31   And I came to actually like it that way. It's the same thing that got me with the gaming

02:05:34   monitor like being closer to the screen being able to see more detail.

02:05:39   I haven't done the math and the angles in it but I think it just you can get it to fill

02:05:43   more of your field of view even though I have the 55 inch television I do sit kind of far

02:05:47   away from it and I even felt like I know this can't possibly be true maybe it is I don't

02:05:52   know I even felt like the input lag was reduced even though the video was being wirelessly

02:05:57   sent to this handheld thing like the game was actually playing on the Wii U that's attached

02:06:01   to my TV and it was wirelessly sending the video like surely that has more lag than playing

02:06:04   it on my actual TV, but for whatever reason, bottom line is I did better.

02:06:09   I did better against the accursed rubberbanding AI in Mario Kart 8 and in getting five stars

02:06:15   or three stars or whatever it is, max rating and all these things to unlock all the stuff.

02:06:18   I did better when I had it in my hand and I found that fun, being able to be in the

02:06:22   same room as other people but not occupying the giant TV while they watch some show and

02:06:28   I play this thing.

02:06:29   Again, I haven't done that with the Switch yet.

02:06:31   I've been doing entirely on TV mostly because my son and I are playing the new Zelda together.

02:06:36   And anyone else who happens to come in the room wants to see what we're up to because

02:06:39   we're up to some awesome stuff.

02:06:42   But then it's easier for us to sit in front of a TV and Zelda is not a Twitch game where

02:06:46   you have to have like amazing response times and amazing frame rate and it's a good thing

02:06:50   because you don't have that.

02:06:51   But it's more fun for everyone to like look and to be looking at the big screen and admiring

02:06:57   the scenery and pointing out the sparkles that I don't see out of the corner of my eye,

02:07:00   which means that I have to go pick up an arrow that I shot 10 minutes ago.

02:07:06   Sounds like a blast.

02:07:07   It's awesome.

02:07:08   Well, if you ever get bored of yours, just send it my way.

02:07:13   I'll play the snot out of it.

02:07:14   But I can't take it out of the dock because I might scratch the screen.

02:07:17   Oh my god.

02:07:20   Are you guys aware of this controversy?

02:07:21   No.

02:07:22   This internet controversy?

02:07:23   So people, do you know that the switch goes into like the little napkin holder thingy

02:07:27   that's the dock?

02:07:28   Yeah, mine's in there now.

02:07:29   Should I be afraid of taking it out somehow somewhere people are getting scratches on like the sides of the screen

02:07:36   not the part that lights up but still kind of like a screen surface like the black area and around it and

02:07:41   all sorts of internet photos and they're like

02:07:43   Scratches on it like is that is it happening because you're sliding and in and out of the plastic dock and like oh the plastic

02:07:49   Dock is scratched people switches

02:07:51   You need to get a screen protector

02:07:52   But then people get screen protectors and they heat from the switch makes the screen protectors peel off and buckle and they're saying oh you shouldn't

02:07:56   get screen protectors and then someone puts a video of them taking their switch and slamming

02:08:00   it in and out and in and out and in the dock as hard as they possibly can like 50 times

02:08:04   and then pulling it out and saying, "See?

02:08:06   No scratches."

02:08:07   So whatever the hell you're doing to scratch your switch, it ain't putting it in the dock.

02:08:09   And people are like, "Well, you don't know my life.

02:08:11   I put my thing in the switch gently three times and it scratched to hell."

02:08:15   And so unlike the left Joy-Con thing, which is 100% reproducible, as far as I've been

02:08:20   able to tell in my brief Googling around on the scratching thing is that no one knows

02:08:23   what the heck is happening.

02:08:26   Chances are good that Nintendo wouldn't have shipped something that could have scratched it, but the screen, I think the screen is not class.

02:08:34   And so it's conceivable that the two plastics could combine in a way that could cause scratches on the non-light-up part of the screen, which would be bad.

02:08:42   So I have been very, very carefully taking my Switch in and out of the dock.

02:08:47   dock but I was pretty well convinced by that guy going to town on his switch his

02:08:52   sacrificial switch in his dock and saying look I'm literally squeezing the

02:08:56   napkin holder dock pinched shut as much as I can and jamming this thing out like

02:09:00   incredibly rough I'm like if that doesn't scratch it like well then what

02:09:04   is happening like it do they they could have a grain of sand inside their dock

02:09:08   and that would do it because you know all you need is a grain of sand between

02:09:10   two little surfaces and you've got scratches out of especially if it's

02:09:13   plastic. But how did SAN get in your Switch dock? So I don't know. I think that is the

02:09:19   least concerning controversy. The Joy-Con thing seems like a hardware problem that they're

02:09:23   going to have problems with. It's just, you know, people are holding it wrong. It's the

02:09:25   same thing all over again. You've got your big watery meat bags blocking the signal and

02:09:30   some bad antenna design mixed in. You know, we've all been there and done that. But that

02:09:35   doesn't concern me because I'm just going to use the Pro Controller. Or if I didn't

02:09:39   use the Pro Controller, I would use it when they're docked to the Switch, in which case

02:09:42   signal is not an issue, you know what I mean, I'll put the things on the side. I'm not sure

02:09:45   that I would ever... Wait, it's only a problem when it's in the

02:09:48   grip? Is that what the thing is? No, it's only a problem when it's in your hand. You

02:09:52   can use the two Joy-Cons like one in each hand, like just holding them, like you're

02:09:56   on the couch and the switch is across the room, right?

02:09:58   Oh! And you're using the two Joy-Cons like that,

02:10:01   and when you do that it's possible to wrap your big meaty adult hand entirely around

02:10:04   the left Joy-Con in a way that blocks the antenna and causes like Bluetooth disconnects

02:10:09   - Right, so that's the issue everyone's having,

02:10:11   is only when they're disconnected.

02:10:12   So if you use it like all together, it's fine?

02:10:15   - Yeah, yeah, it's fine.

02:10:16   - Oh. - 'Cause I think

02:10:17   when it's all together,

02:10:17   I think it's literally physically connected,

02:10:19   or if not, you certainly can't wrap your hand

02:10:21   around the side that's facing the switch,

02:10:22   because you can't get your hand there.

02:10:24   It's connected in that side.

02:10:25   - Right, right, right.

02:10:26   - iFixit did, or someone did a tear down

02:10:28   to show where the little antenna is,

02:10:29   and show that if you attach an extra antenna wire

02:10:31   and trace it, put it in a different position,

02:10:33   like you're able to make it much harder

02:10:35   to stop with your hand.

02:10:36   But it's iPhone 4 type situation all over again.

02:10:39   I'm not concerned about it.

02:10:41   I was in no way waiting for them to make a new hardware revision and fix this problem,

02:10:45   which they probably will, but there's no way in hell I'm waiting.

02:10:47   I wanted to play Zelda.

02:10:49   If I don't succeed in getting a pro controller anytime soon, is it an acceptable substitute

02:10:55   to use either the little plastic thing that comes with it or to buy the $30 charging grip

02:11:03   to just use the Joy-Cons as a controller?

02:11:06   You can try it.

02:11:07   I mean, the buttons are super tiny on those Joy-Cons,

02:11:09   and the joystick is very tiny,

02:11:11   and it's all kind of small and tiny and awkward,

02:11:13   and I wouldn't choose to do it with my hands,

02:11:15   but a lot of people are discovering

02:11:17   what I discovered long ago.

02:11:18   - I wouldn't do that with my hands,

02:11:19   I'd do it with your hands.

02:11:20   - Yeah.

02:11:20   Ergonomically speaking, having your left and right hand

02:11:24   not joined by, like, not holding onto a rigid thing,

02:11:27   you know what I mean?

02:11:28   Like, to be able to separate them,

02:11:29   like you do with the nunchuck and the Wiimote or whatever,

02:11:32   is ergonomically great for anyone

02:11:33   who has kind of RSI issues,

02:11:35   because you can put your wrists and hands

02:11:37   more neutral positions. You're not forced to, like with a keyboard, you know, you're

02:11:41   not forced to align your fingers with the home keys, or a split keyboard lets your wrist

02:11:44   be more neutral or whatever. So with the separate controllers, a lot of people are either discovering

02:11:50   for the first time or rediscovering how comfortable it can be to have those, to have two completely

02:11:56   independent not attached by anything controllers, and you can put your hands however is most

02:12:00   comfortable for you and just use your thumbs and your fingers to make things. I just think

02:12:04   They're too small for my hands, for the size of my hands.

02:12:07   But you know, your mileage may vary, so try either way.

02:12:09   And the little doggy thing, I haven't even tried it.

02:12:12   The grip seems fine or whatever.

02:12:14   It was like, honestly, why would I ever put those things

02:12:17   into the little doggy grip when I have the Pro Controller?

02:12:19   I don't see myself ever doing that.

02:12:21   Cool.

02:12:22   I will try to get a Pro Controller

02:12:24   and try to actually download Zelda.

02:12:26   It might be working now.

02:12:27   By the way, speaking of companies

02:12:28   that won't let you give them their money,

02:12:29   Sony is the worst at this.

02:12:31   And every time I want to buy something on Sony's thing, like, it probably is my fault

02:12:37   for triggering this, like the expiration date of my credit card change because I got a new

02:12:41   card issued or whatever.

02:12:44   And maybe I went through and tried to do the purchase before I had updated the card.

02:12:48   It's like, oh, you know, whatever, your purchase didn't go through.

02:12:50   It's like, oh yeah, I got to update the expiration date.

02:12:52   So I go update the expiration date and change it to the new one.

02:12:56   But it just still won't let me purchase.

02:12:58   I delete that credit card, enter it in the number one.

02:12:59   It won't let me purchase.

02:13:00   Like how many times have I done this?

02:13:01   Every time I go to buy something, it's like, guess what?

02:13:04   Sony will not let you buy anything with any credit card.

02:13:06   With this credit card, with a new credit card, I go through like every credit card I own.

02:13:09   Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

02:13:10   And it's because they do this like 24 to 48 hour lockout to prevent fraud when they think

02:13:14   there's some sort of problem.

02:13:16   And you Google for it, and you see a million people getting payment failures for buying

02:13:20   stuff in the PlayStation Store.

02:13:21   It is so incredibly common.

02:13:23   And so I think for the past three times I have bought things, because I buy all downloadable

02:13:27   for a PS4, I don't buy a plastic disc if I can help it.

02:13:30   For the past three times, here's how I buy things on the Sony store.

02:13:34   I go to Amazon, I buy a digital download code for $20 worth of credit, I get the code, I

02:13:38   enter into this thing.

02:13:40   Like there's no, I don't lose any money in the deal except for the money that's left

02:13:42   over.

02:13:43   That's how I buy things on Sony's stupid store because they won't take my friggin' money.

02:13:46   They also accept PayPal, but screw PayPal.

02:13:48   [beeping]

02:13:50   [ Silence ]