210: My Stupid Thumb


00:00:00   So much easier when everything was monochrome.

00:00:02   Those were the days, right John?

00:00:04   Those were the days.

00:00:06   You kids these days and your multi-bit displays.

00:00:08   Pixels could be on or they could be off.

00:00:10   What more did you need?

00:00:12   [

00:00:12   (electronic beeping)

00:00:13   So I'm sick.

00:00:15   You know, I should actually save that

00:00:16   for right before followup,

00:00:17   because if you don't leave in that I'm sick,

00:00:19   then everyone's gonna branch at you

00:00:20   about how the sound's all wrong for me.

00:00:22   - Marco would never edit something out of a podcast

00:00:24   that causes a stream of feedback for an entire week,

00:00:26   even though we discussed it on the show.

00:00:28   (laughing)

00:00:30   - Normally I try to edit,

00:00:34   I try to remove things that we say,

00:00:37   kind of like, "I wonder if it's this way,"

00:00:39   that we find out two seconds later are wrong,

00:00:42   because that way, if I don't do that,

00:00:45   then we will get tons of email from people

00:00:47   who pause at that point before we realize that we are wrong

00:00:51   and write it and tell us that we were wrong.

00:00:53   So normally I will edit out the first half

00:00:55   of something like that, just because it doesn't do anybody

00:00:57   any good to hear us speculate being wrong

00:01:00   that we're gonna learn is wrong shortly after.

00:01:03   But sometimes I get it wrong.

00:01:05   - So with that in mind, before anyone writes in,

00:01:08   I am a little sick.

00:01:09   I actually feel fine, but I don't know,

00:01:11   maybe my sinuses are all clogged up

00:01:13   because I sound weird as hell.

00:01:14   - You sound like hell.

00:01:15   - I know, but I really do feel okay.

00:01:17   I haven't been snotting that much.

00:01:18   I mean, everything seems okay, but I can feel it coming.

00:01:21   - Can we hear more detail about your nasal situation?

00:01:24   - I would love to, I would love to.

00:01:25   Actually, it's funny because I--

00:01:27   - How's your butt?

00:01:28   Let's hear more, yeah.

00:01:29   (laughing)

00:01:31   - God, I wish I remembered that Scrubs song about,

00:01:34   I think it all comes down to poo, something like that.

00:01:36   Anyway. - That's life.

00:01:38   But yeah, I listened to Dubai Friday,

00:01:41   which I resisted listening to for a while

00:01:44   for no particular reason,

00:01:46   I guess just because I don't feel like

00:01:47   I have a lot of availability in my schedule

00:01:51   for new podcasts.

00:01:53   - Don't do that.

00:01:54   - Well, and as it turns out, I'm glad I folded

00:01:57   because Dubai Friday is excellent.

00:02:00   And on Dubai Friday, they were talking about

00:02:03   some sort of sinus cleansing device

00:02:05   that I think came from Walgreens.

00:02:07   - Don't do that either.

00:02:08   - It was a neti pot, right?

00:02:09   - Well, yeah, neti pot or something along those lines.

00:02:11   I forget the details.

00:02:12   - Brain amoebas.

00:02:13   - Yeah, well, that's the thing.

00:02:13   And so on the one side, I feel like,

00:02:15   I think my sinuses are like clogged as hell

00:02:18   and one of these neti pot-like things

00:02:21   would theoretically clear it.

00:02:23   But that being said, I really do not want a brain amoeba

00:02:27   and so I will just pass and sound like a moron

00:02:29   for the rest of the episode and not die from a brain amoeba

00:02:33   and I'll be okay with that.

00:02:34   - Now, in fairness for the "Dubai Friday"

00:02:36   brain squirting device, that one did have a microfilter of some kind that purported

00:02:43   to block the brain amoebas from entering your brain.

00:02:45   And if there's anybody you want to trust with keeping microbes out of your body through

00:02:49   use of a paper-thin filter, it's CVS.

00:02:52   It's a $14 thing at Walgreens.

00:02:54   Oh, Walgreens.

00:02:55   Sorry, not CVS.

00:02:56   Sorry.

00:02:57   That's a whole different story.

00:02:58   Yeah, if it's Walgreens, then you're okay.

00:03:00   Oh, my goodness.

00:03:01   So, yeah, so don't yell at Marco.

00:03:03   His levels aren't wrong.

00:03:04   My levels aren't wrong.

00:03:05   sound weird. So, um, so yeah, apologies for that. We should start with some follow up.

00:03:12   We are aware that you can use Control Center to switch to AirPods on iOS devices. The whole

00:03:18   of the internet wrote in to tell us this, and this was very confusing for Jon and I

00:03:22   because we spoke about this on the show and I didn't understand why nobody spent the time

00:03:28   to figure that out. And as it turns out, we later discovered that this was one of those

00:03:34   instances where Marco got a little aggressive with the edits, which truth be told, happens

00:03:39   extremely rarely. But every great once in a while, something slips through the cracks.

00:03:43   And this was one of those instances where John and I discussed this, and it was in the

00:03:49   midst of other things that should have been cut, and apparently the slicing and dicing

00:03:53   was not quite surgical enough. So we are aware that you can use Control Center to switch

00:03:59   to AirPods on iOS devices. So thank you the entirety of the internet for writing it.

00:04:03   But more importantly for the people who listen to the show the vast vast majority of people that information was cut and they

00:04:09   Didn't get the benefit of knowing that yes, obviously the people who wrote in to tell us

00:04:13   That we can use a control center

00:04:16   You know like that I was surprised by them writing in because I said oh

00:04:20   Like Marco said sometimes people pause the show to send feedback

00:04:24   And then they resume playing it and there's some standard amount of feedback you get of someone saying

00:04:30   something that you know will be addressed maybe 20 or 30 seconds later in the show.

00:04:33   And that's fine. That happens all the time. I do it myself. Everybody does it, right?

00:04:37   >> JOSHUA YAMISCH: Yep. Me too.

00:04:37   >> BRIAN KARDELL: I usually expect to see one or two pieces of feedback after that saying,

00:04:43   "Oh, ha ha. I should have waited 20 seconds, then you mentioned it." But I didn't see any of those.

00:04:47   I was like, "This is weird." Large volume of people apparently pausing the podcast to get feedback,

00:04:52   but nobody saying, "Oh, sorry. I should have kept listening." So that was my clue that this was

00:04:59   was going on. But anyway, the important piece of information denied to all the other listeners

00:05:03   who didn't know, like me, that you can do this. If you have AirPods and multiple iOS

00:05:11   devices, you don't have to go to settings and Bluetooth and switch it. You can do it

00:05:16   in Control Center, and it is more convenient, so try it.

00:05:19   Yeah, and to be clear, just in case it wasn't obvious, there are two panes in Control Center,

00:05:24   And it is the right most pain.

00:05:27   There's a kind of a dropdown list-ish thing on the bottom where you can select your output

00:05:32   device and that's what you want.

00:05:34   And actually speaking of Control Center, one of the reasons that it is not actually as

00:05:39   convenient for me to use Control Center is because as of right now I have Control Center

00:05:44   disabled on my iPad every place except for Springboard.

00:05:48   You know there's that setting if you whether you want to be able to swipe up and get Control

00:05:51   Center either just in Springboard or in all apps.

00:05:53   I forget how it's phrased, but anyway, I had to disable Control Center in applications

00:05:59   on my iPad, which is the main device I would be switching to, because of Stagehand, which

00:06:04   is an excellent game that you should try, but it involves a lot of swiping rapidly upward

00:06:07   from the bottom of your iPad, and I really don't want Control Center to appear.

00:06:11   I don't even want the little tabby thing to appear, because you know what makes you do

00:06:14   it twice to show that you really mean it?

00:06:16   That little tabby thing appears, and I'm instantly dead, so that's a great game.

00:06:21   Everyone should buy it and try it and you should disable Control Center first.

00:06:26   I love the style of that game, I love the music of that game, I love the idea of that

00:06:32   game, but my brain just can't do it.

00:06:34   Like I know there's some kind of learning curve maybe, and I tried playing it for like

00:06:38   a good 15 minutes, I could not get my brain to do it right.

00:06:43   It's not a learning curve, it's a two-state machine.

00:06:46   There is "I don't get the game" and then you will cross a humongous gap somehow magically

00:06:51   and then all of a sudden you get the game. That was my experiences. I was in the beta

00:06:55   for that game and I played it a lot during the beta, right? And my high score was like

00:07:01   one or two hundred for several weeks. And then as the beta went on, I got close to four hundred.

00:07:10   And I was asking, I was asking, "Nevin, what did normal people get for high scores? I know

00:07:15   it's just the beta testers, but am I just terrible at this game or am I average?"

00:07:20   And he was saying there's a lot of variability and so on and so forth

00:07:23   It's trying to make me feel better about my thought my terrible high score

00:07:27   But once the game got closer to release it. I think it was actually around the time of release I

00:07:32   my brain figured it out like figure it out how to play the game and instantly went up into the thousands and

00:07:38   You know and have him look back, so I I wouldn't you know it. It's a fun game

00:07:44   It's a cute little trifle you can play with it, but unfortunately unlike alto's adventure unfortunately slash fortunately

00:07:50   once you figure the game out it becomes surprisingly time consuming as you spend

00:07:57   your days plunking away at this thing but there is there is a big leap so if

00:08:01   you don't you know if you don't want to ever make that leap that's fine

00:08:03   I still think it's worth the three bucks or whatever the game costs just to play

00:08:06   with it because it is a really novel interesting idea very well executed but

00:08:10   there is another game on the other side of it once you once you cross the hurdle

00:08:14   once your brain gets the game and then you can like me spend most of your time

00:08:18   being incredibly frustrated that you made some tiny minute mistake after

00:08:22   playing for literally 20 minutes and just missed your high score. This sounds

00:08:26   vaguely like the smarter everyday video with the backwards bike. Have you seen

00:08:31   this? It's you know with where they they had it's like a gear or something like

00:08:35   that such that when you turned the handlebars right the bike went left and

00:08:40   and if you watch the video, spoiler alert, basically eventually you just flip this

00:08:45   switch or your brain just flips the switch where it understands and then you

00:08:50   can actually ride the bike. Also real-time follow-up this is an example

00:08:53   of us saying something that we don't realize is wrong. People will have

00:08:57   already paused the show and written in and now I will correct it. For the three

00:09:02   of you that actually use HomeKit, HomeKit is the right most pain on a

00:09:06   control center. It is not the audio stuff but there's only three of

00:09:11   you that use HomeKit so I appreciate all three of you writing in.

00:09:14   that out don't worry. Yeah. Do you think they're also the opera users? Ah, you know,

00:09:19   that's an interesting point. Very well could be. Hmm, I don't know. So write in if

00:09:23   you, no actually not really. There are long waits when you use the chat

00:09:28   feature for most customer support tools. This is when you use the online

00:09:32   web chat because like me you hate the telephone and don't want to spend any

00:09:36   time on the telephone if you can avoid it. Tom W. writes in to point out, "Web chat

00:09:40   works on the premise that one person speaks to a few people at once, many up

00:09:44   to 10. And perhaps that's why the latency is so atrociously bad when you're having these

00:09:52   online chat experiences.

00:09:53   Yeah, a lot of people wrote in with that feedback and that makes perfect sense. And it should

00:09:57   have occurred to me, but didn't. I was using it because the phone lines were closed. But

00:10:01   I mean, it just falls out of like, "Okay, so the phone lines are closed. Why is the

00:10:05   text chat open?" Because in text chat, you get a 10 to one multiplier on your people.

00:10:10   And that's why I gotta wait 10 minutes for a reply, because someone is replying to 10

00:10:15   other people.

00:10:16   And that's actually kind of an amazing/terrible job, because who wants to – have you ever

00:10:21   tried to conduct 10 simultaneous text conversations that are productive in any way with anybody?

00:10:28   You can't even joke around with three friends at once.

00:10:31   I feel like I'm frazzled doing that.

00:10:32   It's like, all right.

00:10:33   I mean, you can have multiple things going in a non-time-critical nature, like just,

00:10:39   you know, whatever, like someone says something funny

00:10:41   and then you say something funny backward,

00:10:42   like that's fine, and multiple Slack channels,

00:10:44   all that stuff, but 10 customer service conversations

00:10:47   where the person on the other end is potentially angry

00:10:50   and wants to just complete a transaction,

00:10:52   now I feel really bad for these people.

00:10:53   - I mean, I'm guessing that there's, you know,

00:10:56   software assistants here, that they're probably using

00:10:58   special tools that have like a checklist script

00:11:01   that they're going through with each person.

00:11:02   - Yeah, it's macros, yeah.

00:11:03   - Well, but even just like, I'm sure there's like a script

00:11:06   or like a checklist that each one can probably keep a state

00:11:09   of like, here's what I've done with this customer so far.

00:11:11   So there's probably some kind of special software design

00:11:14   to help them out here.

00:11:16   - Well, I mean, this is a perfect application

00:11:17   for everyone's favorite '80s AI technology, expert systems,

00:11:21   where you can't make a general purpose AI

00:11:23   because it's really hard,

00:11:24   but what you can do is make a text-only chat thing

00:11:28   that knows how to handle customer service,

00:11:31   the top five customer service concerns,

00:11:33   and punts to a user if it can't figure it out.

00:11:37   And those can work fine too,

00:11:38   and I think I would probably be mostly okay with those.

00:11:41   If it just, you know, I would type in something

00:11:45   and it would repeat back to me

00:11:46   its understanding of the thing, asking for confirmation.

00:11:50   And that can get frustrating if you go around in circles,

00:11:52   but if it just punts you to a person,

00:11:53   I can imagine it would probably be good for, you know,

00:11:55   covering at least half of the cases of,

00:11:58   I have a product, there's a problem, I want to return,

00:12:00   and it would ask me for the order number

00:12:02   and give me the RMA, but like, machine could do that.

00:12:05   Not that I'm trying to put more people out of work

00:12:06   the AIs, but, you know, efficiencies.

00:12:10   All right, so let's get to the John Syracuse, a portion of follow-up, as if all the follow-up

00:12:16   isn't John's already.

00:12:17   Why don't you tell us about APFS?

00:12:22   Somebody on the internet named Tyler Locke, or "Loke," successfully booted macOS Sierra

00:12:28   from an APFS file system.

00:12:30   As we all know, APFS was introduced in Sierra as a developer preview, and presumably sometime

00:12:35   this year will be the official supported bootable file system for what I suppose is the next

00:12:42   major version of Mac OS, but who knows, they could do it in a point release too, whatever,

00:12:46   it's already coming to iOS in 10.3 and that's not even the next major release.

00:12:51   And up till now you haven't been able to boot from it, but many many parts of it are getting

00:12:55   more and more mature and obviously if it's going to be the, it's going to convert all

00:12:59   your iOS devices to APFS in 10.3, I bet the file system is pretty much ready for prime

00:13:04   The only reason it's not on the Mac is because the Mac is obviously a lower priority.

00:13:08   And he tweeted about this.

00:13:09   We'll put some links in the show notes to these tweets just so you can get in touch

00:13:12   with him and tell him to write a blog post about it if he hasn't already.

00:13:16   He did it by taking a 10.12.4 drive, cloning it, running the APFS/HFS convert command line

00:13:25   utility which exists to convert it in place just like it does in the iOS devices, right?

00:13:29   That's why that utility exists.

00:13:31   And then manually edited the global partition table UUID to some big hex string that apparently

00:13:37   is the right one.

00:13:40   And then did some other stuff that I can't understand because he tried to compress it

00:13:43   all into a tweet.

00:13:45   And changed some kernel flags and rebooted.

00:13:47   And he was booted into APFS.

00:13:48   And the other thing to note is his little screenshot showing, "Hey, look, I'm booted

00:13:52   into APFS," showed as the volume type APFS and in parentheses case insensitive.

00:13:59   So in case you're wondering, I don't know if this is just a choice you made or if it's

00:14:02   going to be the official one, but APFS case insensitive is certainly a thing.

00:14:07   So maybe if you're having problems with case sensitive HFS+, you won't have to worry about

00:14:12   that with APFS because you won't be forced to make your Mac case sensitive if this screenshot

00:14:16   is any indication.

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00:16:03   (upbeat music)

00:16:06   - So, big week for Marco, as they say.

00:16:09   You have released Overcast 3, so congratulations.

00:16:12   - Thank you, there's only one massive bug.

00:16:14   - What's the massive bug?

00:16:15   - Well, there were 15 minor bugs that I fixed

00:16:17   in a point release yesterday,

00:16:20   but created one less minor bug

00:16:22   where now you just can't create playlists anymore.

00:16:25   Oh, that's no big deal.

00:16:26   - I've heard from surprisingly few people about it

00:16:29   because creating playlists is not a very common action.

00:16:32   You get the all episodes list for free

00:16:34   and if you queue things, that's created automatically,

00:16:37   so that's fine.

00:16:38   I have the fix ready.

00:16:39   iTunes Connect has been undergoing maintenance stuff

00:16:42   all day, so I haven't actually been able to submit it.

00:16:45   But that should be fixed in a couple days,

00:16:47   probably by the time this podcast goes live.

00:16:49   - You found this bug, the playlist bug,

00:16:51   after you released, laughed you uploaded 301?

00:16:54   - 301 caused the bug.

00:16:56   - Oh, there you go.

00:16:57   There you go.

00:16:59   Now that's a point release.

00:17:00   'Cause it was a rapid turnaround.

00:17:02   You had 3.0.1 which had a bunch of little minor fixes

00:17:05   and it got approved really quickly

00:17:06   and it went up on the store.

00:17:07   It's like, wow, everything's working as is on.

00:17:09   But then you added a bug.

00:17:10   - Yeah, well 'cause 3.0 had a pretty serious bug

00:17:13   where the gesture for dismissing the now playing sheet,

00:17:18   it would interfere with the speed slider's little thumb

00:17:21   if you would set the speed to the very bottom setting,

00:17:24   the minus which is like .7x or .8x, something like that.

00:17:27   So basically if you set the speed all the way down,

00:17:30   you could never change it.

00:17:31   Unless you had like an iPad or something

00:17:32   that you could like sync it back from.

00:17:34   And so that was a pretty serious bug.

00:17:36   So I had to get 301 out quickly

00:17:40   and there were a couple of other like minor things.

00:17:41   I'm like, you know, let me throw in, you know,

00:17:43   whatever I could do quickly that's not gonna require

00:17:45   lots of testing to validate and everything.

00:17:47   Let me just do that quickly.

00:17:48   And I slipped up when fixing a playlist reordering bug.

00:17:52   basically I pulled the playlist editor out of the card

00:17:55   environment because for various implementation details

00:17:59   that are too boring to get into here,

00:18:01   UI table view reorder controls break if they're in a card

00:18:06   that isn't my now playing card.

00:18:08   So I had to revert the playlist editor back to the regular

00:18:13   environment which is not in a card

00:18:14   because it's a regular full screen sheet

00:18:16   and in doing that I mistakenly forgot to re-add

00:18:20   the done button back to it,

00:18:23   so now you can cancel your creation of the playlist,

00:18:25   but you cannot finish it.

00:18:26   - I was surprised to hear your comprehensive suite

00:18:28   of automated tests didn't catch this.

00:18:30   - I was waiting for it, thank you John Syracuse,

00:18:32   I love you so much. - No problem,

00:18:32   I wanted to save your voice.

00:18:34   - Thank you.

00:18:34   All right, so you've gone on a justifiable media blitz.

00:18:39   I listened to Under the Radar already,

00:18:41   moments before we started recording,

00:18:43   it turns out as per tradition, you are on the talk show.

00:18:45   What do you want to talk about here,

00:18:49   either that you've touched on previously

00:18:51   or that you'd like to elaborate upon.

00:18:54   I mean, this is your show, so now's the time to really,

00:18:56   well, not that Under the Radar isn't, you know what I mean.

00:18:59   Now's the time to really go deep on any of this stuff

00:19:01   or do what I expect you to do and say, hey, whatever.

00:19:04   - Well, I don't, I mean, what do you guys wanna know?

00:19:07   Like, I mean, what do you think would be interesting?

00:19:09   'Cause like, you know, so I'll tell you, you know,

00:19:11   on Under the Radar, I talked about kind of the idea of,

00:19:15   basically 3.0 was a big release in terms of

00:19:20   how much stuff changed, but it was actually

00:19:23   not a big release in terms of here's a list

00:19:25   of features that are new.

00:19:27   Like there are very few new features.

00:19:29   And it's kind of an interesting thing to do

00:19:33   of like here's a new version of this app.

00:19:36   There's been tons of work to it, it's a lot better,

00:19:39   but I can't tell you everything new in it

00:19:41   because it's not that kind of better.

00:19:43   Like I basically, most of the work was in revamping the UI

00:19:48   and it doesn't even look incredibly different

00:19:52   than how it did before.

00:19:53   It just works differently in certain places.

00:19:56   So like you have the whole card UI

00:19:57   with the now playing screen,

00:19:59   the two stage episode selection now

00:20:01   with the action row on the bottom of it.

00:20:03   Those are the big things and then the queuing system

00:20:06   that goes around that whole thing

00:20:07   and kind of like moving all the actions into visible places.

00:20:11   but in a similar way that it's hard for me

00:20:14   to come up with a feature change list

00:20:17   of here's the big new headlining features,

00:20:19   it's also hard for me to come up with

00:20:21   what should I talk about?

00:20:22   Like what do you wanna know?

00:20:23   I don't know, Chatroom, what do you want?

00:20:25   I mean, what do you think I should be covering here?

00:20:28   - Chatroom wants to know why swipe to delete has gone on,

00:20:30   and having been on the Overcast 3 Beta for how many months,

00:20:33   I thought I'll eventually get used to it

00:20:34   and it will go away, I'm still swiping them to delete.

00:20:36   So just FYI.

00:20:38   I mean, not that I don't mind it,

00:20:39   'cause I don't delete them that often,

00:20:40   like they go away when I still have the setting

00:20:42   that deletes them when you finish listening.

00:20:44   So it's not a thing that comes up often,

00:20:46   but I've done it in the past week.

00:20:48   - The short version of why this is the way it is,

00:20:51   and then you can yell at me for an hour, is the old way of,

00:20:56   you have your list of episodes,

00:20:58   you could swipe one of the cells

00:20:59   and it would reveal the iOS standard table view,

00:21:02   delete button along with a couple other actions.

00:21:04   Like there was a star for recommending

00:21:06   and there was a download button there

00:21:07   if it wasn't downloaded.

00:21:09   this has always been the way to delete episodes in Overcast.

00:21:12   You could also just listen to them all the way through,

00:21:14   and the default setting was to delete after listening.

00:21:18   I got so many emails and tweets

00:21:21   over the last two and a half years since 1.0,

00:21:23   with people asking, "How can I delete episodes?"

00:21:26   Or, "How do I delete episodes

00:21:28   "without listening to them all the way through?"

00:21:30   Which is kind of funny, if you think about it,

00:21:31   like that means people were actually

00:21:32   trying to play episodes all the way through

00:21:34   just to delete them.

00:21:35   And the reason why is because I thought,

00:21:37   when I was designing this app,

00:21:38   that of course everyone using an iPhone knows

00:21:42   that you swipe table views to delete.

00:21:44   You know, that's obvious, everyone knows that, right?

00:21:46   Or you tap the edit button in the corner

00:21:47   and it shows the delete controls

00:21:49   and then you delete from there.

00:21:50   People don't know this.

00:21:52   A lot of people don't know this.

00:21:54   And you can kind of understand why

00:21:55   because if you just get an iPhone

00:21:57   and you just start using it,

00:21:59   at no point do you really need that.

00:22:02   Like in the rest of the iPhone interface,

00:22:04   that doesn't really, like there's always also

00:22:07   delete button somewhere or something else,

00:22:09   or it's in some context like messages

00:22:11   where it doesn't really matter,

00:22:13   where you don't often delete entire conversations.

00:22:15   So a lot of people who use iPhones don't know

00:22:19   the quote standards for some of the standard controls

00:22:22   for things like swiping table cells

00:22:24   to show a delete control or hitting the edit button

00:22:26   to show other controls, whatever else.

00:22:27   - Does Apple Mail have a way to delete?

00:22:29   - Yeah, there's delete buttons right on the toolbar.

00:22:32   A huge design goal of Overcast 3,

00:22:34   and I wrote this in my post,

00:22:35   but a huge design goal of Overcast 3

00:22:36   was basically to, 'cause you know, every feature that I had

00:22:40   that was hidden behind some kind of gesture,

00:22:41   people wouldn't find.

00:22:42   And they would write in confused or mad

00:22:45   that I didn't have this feature or disappointed.

00:22:47   And so my main goal with Overcast 3 was to take

00:22:51   all the things I've learned with two and a half years

00:22:54   of basically feedback and user testing

00:22:56   and try to address as many design flaws as possible.

00:23:01   I mean, there's so many features, so much functionality,

00:23:05   that I've had since 1.0 that a good portion of my users

00:23:08   either can't find or just assume I don't have

00:23:11   or they misunderstand.

00:23:12   So it was very much like a clarifying release,

00:23:16   like to clarify how things work and et cetera.

00:23:20   And I knew going into it, I knew that the now playing

00:23:25   being this card that's coming from the bottom

00:23:26   instead of a navigation pane that slides from the right,

00:23:28   I knew that would be like a minor thing

00:23:30   people get used to quickly.

00:23:31   But I also knew, and I even said on the post,

00:23:33   that the new two stage where now you tap the cell

00:23:38   and rather than immediately playing the episode,

00:23:41   it shows a little action menu kind of like

00:23:44   when you select a tweet in Tweetbot

00:23:46   and there's buttons and the middle button there is play

00:23:49   and the one to the far right is delete.

00:23:52   I'm a little curious from people like you guys

00:23:55   and the entire chat room and many people on Twitter.

00:23:58   By the way, I should say before I make jokes like that,

00:24:01   The response to this update has been massively positive.

00:24:05   I am very, very happy with the response.

00:24:08   It has been very, very positive.

00:24:11   And for something that changes so many things,

00:24:13   that's a more positive reaction than I would have guessed.

00:24:18   So anyway, that aside, for the people who are not

00:24:20   so positive about it because of this new,

00:24:22   like, now it takes two taps to delete something thing,

00:24:26   it always took two taps to delete something.

00:24:27   But before it was swipe, tap, now it's tap, tap.

00:24:31   So I'm kind of curious like why, I mean it's different,

00:24:35   but is it actually worse?

00:24:37   - You know why, Casey and I shouldn't,

00:24:39   don't give him the answer, chat room don't tell him,

00:24:41   Marco will now explain to us why there is feedback

00:24:45   about the swipe.

00:24:46   - I understand the people who don't like

00:24:49   that there's two taps to play something,

00:24:51   I understand that because it was one tap before

00:24:54   and now it's two, even though it's much less error prone now

00:24:56   and the interface is way clearer for everybody,

00:24:58   But why is it worse to have delete be two taps

00:25:02   instead of a swipe and then a tap?

00:25:04   - And now the other part of Marco's brain,

00:25:06   well answer that question, go ahead.

00:25:08   (laughs)

00:25:09   - I know, I honestly like, I--

00:25:10   - Oh, I know you can do it Casey, and I know you can do it.

00:25:13   - It's just different, but is it worse?

00:25:16   - Nice.

00:25:17   - It's actually easier to do, it's more precise.

00:25:19   Because that's, one of the reasons I did this

00:25:21   was that the swipe to delete, I would often

00:25:24   accidentally start playing the episode.

00:25:26   - So, well let me give you my answer,

00:25:28   which I think is the same as John's, but who knows?

00:25:30   My answer is you should never, ever, ever deviate

00:25:34   from what is the norm on the platform.

00:25:36   And so the norm on the platform is if you wanna do

00:25:39   some sort of destructive change like that

00:25:40   in a quick gestural way, you swipe from right to left

00:25:45   and there will be some sort of destructive action

00:25:47   that you can take right then and there.

00:25:48   And like you've said previously, Marco,

00:25:50   that's on pretty much every table view in the system

00:25:53   that allows you to remove a table view row.

00:25:56   And so, and I don't think this is exclusively

00:26:00   a power user thing, although it certainly, in my mind,

00:26:03   skews towards power users.

00:26:05   But you should never fight the frameworks,

00:26:08   which you've done with this table view,

00:26:10   actually, in many ways.

00:26:11   - Oh, yeah.

00:26:12   - And you should never fight the HIG,

00:26:14   the Human Interface Guidelines.

00:26:15   And I feel like you're fighting the HIG.

00:26:17   Now, I haven't beaten you up about this too bad previously

00:26:20   because I understand where your head's at.

00:26:21   And it makes sense to me that,

00:26:23   for the overwhelming majority of users,

00:26:25   I bet you anything this was a positive change.

00:26:27   But for someone like me and thinking completely myopically,

00:26:30   you're behaving differently than the rest of the platform

00:26:33   and that feels gross in the same way

00:26:35   that you get that grossed out feeling

00:26:36   when you look at a material design Google app on an iPhone.

00:26:40   - I don't use any Google apps on my phone.

00:26:42   - Well, you know what I mean though.

00:26:44   And that's a bit of an unfair comparison

00:26:46   and a bit slanderous to be fair

00:26:48   because you are nowhere near that out of left field.

00:26:51   But it's a similar scenario, right?

00:26:53   you have something that doesn't quite feel right, but it doesn't quite feel right to a power user

00:27:00   or even a moderate power user. I think to most people, I think you made the right change,

00:27:07   even though it drives me batty. Well, let me just boil that down to a simpler, more visceral answer.

00:27:14   Everything you said is right, but the result of that is that bottom line, I keep swiping things.

00:27:22   That's that's the bottom line after many many weeks. I keep swiping and it's not a big deal and the

00:27:25   Discoverability is a hundred percent like I'm even though it is non-standard in the same way that tweetbot is non-standard

00:27:31   I like it like it is good because you have a complicated application and I think this is better and discoverability

00:27:36   There's no arguing against that you were getting tons of feedback about discoverability

00:27:39   People will find the trash can I come when they couldn't 100% on that but why why do people complain?

00:27:44   It's not about speed. It's not about efficiency. Why do I keep swiping? It's like Casey said because I swipe everywhere else

00:27:50   I can't convince my stupid thumbs not to swipe

00:27:52   and

00:27:54   And everything you said about why you why you you know added the bar and the discoverability all that's 100% true

00:28:00   but exactly in the same way that that uh

00:28:03   Underscore convinced you to make a sideways swipe and explicably do a thing that should totally not do this because that's the way the old

00:28:09   One worked you keep the same controls exactly where they are

00:28:12   But if my finger stupidly swipes for the umpteenth time just let it delete

00:28:18   But that's all I'm asking for like keep exactly the same stuff that's in there now make a discoverable so and so forth

00:28:23   But for the admittedly very small handful of people and that's why this is not a big deal

00:28:28   That's why 3.0 is in that win no matter what even if you never had this feature back

00:28:31   But for the small handful of people who are either on this podcast with you or in the chat room

00:28:35   Whose stupid thumbs keep swiping this is another case to do one of those features

00:28:42   Just like the the one was referring to the underscore talked you into which was the old gesture was to get rid of now

00:28:47   playing you could swipe to the side even though the new one comes up from the bottom, you

00:28:50   still made swipe to the side work because it's no skin off anyone else's back, no one

00:28:54   else is going to discover it except for people who have muscle memory from the old overcast,

00:28:57   guess what?

00:28:58   I can make that work for you too.

00:28:59   Now it may be a pain in the butt to make swipe to delete work in the context of whatever

00:29:03   unholy things that you've done to this table view to make it so super custom, and by the

00:29:07   way I love the fact that you can reorder now with the little grippy tabs everywhere, so

00:29:10   you know again it's totally a net win, but for this tiny little minor feature, you know,

00:29:16   would be neat if the old muscle memory still worked. And I guess I'll probably eventually

00:29:20   get used to it, but I thought I would have gotten used to it by now. And I think it's

00:29:23   exactly what Casey said. If the whole rest of the system is training me again and again

00:29:28   to swipe to delete, it's very difficult to sort of contextually untrain myself from that

00:29:32   gesture on something that looks for all the world like a table view.

00:29:36   As a general rule, use standard gestures. People are familiar with the standard gestures

00:29:39   and don't appreciate being forced to learn different ways to do the same thing. In games

00:29:43   and other immersive apps, custom gestures can be a fun part of the experience. In other

00:29:46   apps it's best to use the standard gestures so extra effort isn't needed to discover or

00:29:49   remember them. Straight out of the Hague.

00:29:52   All right, so you guys make good points. I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying.

00:29:57   I actually, the idea of doing both, of adding the swipes back, actually never occurred to

00:30:04   me until this moment. There is probably something I'm doing to that table view that would make

00:30:10   that probably not work well.

00:30:13   You don't like drawing glitches?

00:30:14   Come on, that's all part of the fun.

00:30:17   - I will try it, 'cause I admit,

00:30:19   if I can do that with no horrible side effects,

00:30:22   then it is kind of a no-brainer

00:30:24   to offer that affordance to have both.

00:30:26   - I like to see the little orange bar appear

00:30:27   as the thing above it swipes sideways,

00:30:29   and the orange bar starts to get clipped and filled,

00:30:31   it will be so awesome.

00:30:32   - Oh, you have no idea what I've done

00:30:34   to poor UITableView.

00:30:35   - I know, I mean, whatever Tweetbot did,

00:30:37   same type of thing.

00:30:38   Like this, and to be fair,

00:30:40   I don't know if Tweetbot was the originator of this thing,

00:30:42   But a lot of applications do this, where they want to have more stuff for you to do in a

00:30:48   table view.

00:30:49   They can't all fit under a magic edit button where you go into a mode, right?

00:30:53   And so they do this thing where it reveals more controls when you tap the thing.

00:30:57   I think that itself, even though it's not in the HIG or whatever, is kind of standard

00:31:00   and tried and true.

00:31:01   But since you can't delete a tweet, the tweet bot never had to deal with – well, I guess

00:31:04   you can.

00:31:05   Speaking of what, you can delete a tweet.

00:31:06   What the hell does tweet bot do when you swipe?

00:31:08   I guess I don't delete tweets as often as I –

00:31:10   - Swipe I think is view conversation.

00:31:12   - Yeah.

00:31:12   - There's two different directions.

00:31:13   One of them is view conversation,

00:31:14   the other one I think is favorite.

00:31:15   - Oh that's right, they used both directions for the, yeah.

00:31:18   - Yeah.

00:31:19   No I mean, so, okay, so there's a number of things

00:31:22   to respond to here.

00:31:23   One of them is when you're thinking about

00:31:27   how this app should be or how this thing should be,

00:31:30   actually work through the entire thing in your head

00:31:33   to see, maybe think maybe there's a reason

00:31:37   why it isn't that way, right?

00:31:38   or maybe that would present more challenges.

00:31:40   And we often do this with trying to,

00:31:43   as our armchair people, trying to tell Apple what to do.

00:31:46   Like, well what if they did that?

00:31:48   What are the other ramifications of that?

00:31:49   So, if I didn't do the button bar thing,

00:31:53   if I kept the delete in there,

00:31:55   what other way, how else could I make it

00:31:57   actually discoverable to people?

00:31:59   And so, the way that the Apple apps do it,

00:32:01   that you're reading from The Hic as if this is a gospel,

00:32:04   well I'll get to that next,

00:32:05   but the way they do it is on the resulting screen,

00:32:09   so like look at Mail, Mail is always a good example

00:32:11   of like standard UI kit stuff,

00:32:14   it's always a good inspiration or reference point for that.

00:32:16   So look at Mail, with Mail, you open the message,

00:32:20   if you assume that you don't know how to swipe

00:32:22   on table cells to delete things, which most people don't,

00:32:26   if you open the message, in the message window,

00:32:28   there's a delete button.

00:32:29   So if you don't know how to swipe on the table view,

00:32:31   you're still seeing delete buttons all the time.

00:32:34   So if I were to go down this path with Overcast

00:32:38   to have single tap to open the message

00:32:43   and to have a swipe offer the delete,

00:32:46   or single tap to begin play the way I had it before,

00:32:49   how else could I make delete more discoverable?

00:32:53   So one way to do it would be if I put delete

00:32:56   in the info pane, which I could do,

00:32:58   I forget whether I did it or not, but I could do that,

00:33:00   have delete be one of the buttons in the info pane.

00:33:03   But in typical playback, you're not using the info pane.

00:33:06   In typical playback, you're hitting the episode

00:33:09   and then it begins playing in the screen, if it's this way.

00:33:11   And so it would have to be in the now playing screen.

00:33:15   So now look at the now playing screen

00:33:16   and where would I put it?

00:33:17   - No one's arguing that you should get rid of the bar.

00:33:22   Well at least I certainly wasn't.

00:33:23   I totally, you have to keep the bar.

00:33:24   - Oh, people are. - You have to.

00:33:25   It's an improvement.

00:33:26   I'm saying like adding swipe to delete

00:33:28   as a shortcut for the people who happen to know it.

00:33:30   which is definitely a tiny detail, nice to have thing

00:33:33   that is not essential for 3.0.

00:33:35   That's why I said the bar is obviously an improvement,

00:33:37   like just, you know, 100%.

00:33:39   And in fact, I think you can--

00:33:41   - It's not obvious to a lot of people on Twitter.

00:33:43   - Well, I think the other thing the bar gives you

00:33:48   looking at it is, I don't know how much metrics

00:33:52   you're collecting in terms of usage,

00:33:53   but you have a lot of room.

00:33:54   - Not a lot.

00:33:55   - And I don't know what, how common the, you know,

00:34:00   you know, add to playlist, you know, the plus hamburger thing and the star thing are or

00:34:06   even the share, like you have enough room to actually use that bar as a place to highlight

00:34:11   new features in 4.0 or whatever as they come. And I think it's important to have an element

00:34:17   like that and burying it under info or putting it on the now playing screen are all much

00:34:20   worse. This was merely a question of, and I don't understand how this is spun out into

00:34:24   this giant big thing because this is such a minor thing. Like this is not a problem

00:34:28   with the application at all, it's just like it's a problem with my thumb still doing a

00:34:32   thing, and I'm just exploring why it might do that, is to continue to provide affordances

00:34:37   for the tiny amount of people who are used to, or their thumbs are used to doing a certain

00:34:43   thing in a way that doesn't detract at all from the increased discoverability provided

00:34:48   by the little bar.

00:34:49   If people are arguing against the bar entirely to go back to the old way, I think they probably

00:34:53   just haven't been using the app long enough.

00:34:54   Because when I first started using it with the little bar too, it feels weird.

00:34:57   You're used to using overcast for, at this point, like, years, right?

00:35:00   Used to tapping to play a thing, and you tap to play a thing and the podcast doesn't start

00:35:04   playing.

00:35:06   That's something I got used to, and it's not as if the first tap doesn't do anything.

00:35:11   The first tap reveals the bar.

00:35:12   So it's not like with swiping, where the swiping just literally does nothing, does not give

00:35:15   you any progress towards your delete action that you were trying to perform.

00:35:19   Tapping reveals the bar.

00:35:20   You have a visual cue that there's something else that you have to do, and usually I'm

00:35:24   I'm doing playlists anyway,

00:35:25   so it's just playing one after the other,

00:35:26   so it's not a big deal.

00:35:27   - Yeah, again, until this podcast,

00:35:30   did not even consider the idea

00:35:31   of leaving the swipe buttons in

00:35:33   and also leaving the bar in.

00:35:35   So I actually am gonna see if I can do that easily

00:35:38   without massive horrible side effects

00:35:40   because of my table view abuse.

00:35:42   - Did you have it in the old one?

00:35:43   I don't even know if you had this.

00:35:44   Did you have the male style super duper swipe?

00:35:47   - Yeah, where there's like three buttons over there?

00:35:48   Yeah, I had that.

00:35:49   - But like where you go all the way to the end

00:35:50   and it just deletes it?

00:35:51   - Oh, no, that was never made available.

00:35:53   Mail always, whatever TableView Mail uses,

00:35:57   always gets cool features like that

00:35:59   before they're available in the public API.

00:36:01   So they had the first action buttons there

00:36:04   for I think an entire iOS version

00:36:05   before it was easy to do that with other ways.

00:36:08   And then they later, once they gave us the API

00:36:12   to make those action buttons,

00:36:13   then Mail got the ability to have the full drag

00:36:15   all the way across for delete,

00:36:16   and I don't think they ever made that available to anybody.

00:36:19   - That's a cool feature.

00:36:20   I hope that does come to TableViews,

00:36:21   because it's definitely like,

00:36:23   we're getting into the realm of like,

00:36:25   not expert features, but features that hopefully

00:36:28   never bother anybody if you don't know they exist,

00:36:31   but once you know they exist, it becomes addictive

00:36:33   to be able to go (whooshing)

00:36:35   and just knock out things.

00:36:36   - The only thing I don't like about that feature

00:36:37   is that if you swipe mail messages left,

00:36:41   there's an unread option on the side,

00:36:43   which doesn't say anything, like you swipe hard enough

00:36:45   and it just marks it unread and that's cool.

00:36:47   If you swipe it right, you have that super mode

00:36:50   where if you swipe it far enough, it just deletes it,

00:36:52   and the far most button is trash,

00:36:54   but the other two buttons it offers are more and flag.

00:36:58   And so if you're opening that menu

00:37:01   in order to flag the message,

00:37:02   that's kind of the opposite of putting it in the trash,

00:37:05   but if you drag just very slightly too far

00:37:07   when you open that message up, it deletes it.

00:37:09   - Yeah, I mean, it's a fine line with the swiping.

00:37:12   - Well, it's a bad decision.

00:37:13   Like to me, I think that everything that's not trash

00:37:17   should be on the other direction swipe menu

00:37:19   if they're gonna do that,

00:37:20   if you're gonna have this all the way swipe gesture,

00:37:23   because it's too easy to do this destructive action

00:37:26   when you're trying to do flag or more.

00:37:29   - I have the opposite problem where I guess

00:37:31   I'm too lazy with the swipe and I wanted to delete it,

00:37:34   but I didn't quite go far enough

00:37:36   and I have to give a second attempt on it,

00:37:37   but I can see the opposite being true to it.

00:37:38   Definitely with anything gestural, that's the problem.

00:37:41   That's the good thing about the bad thing about gestures.

00:37:43   They feel so good when they're right,

00:37:44   but you get it, it's like controlling a video game.

00:37:46   You get it a little bit wrong,

00:37:48   and because it's not a precise thing,

00:37:49   because it is inherently a fuzzy thing, it's really difficult to get sort of the control

00:37:54   scheme just right for everybody, and everybody is a little bit different.

00:37:57   As opposed to the much more analytical world of pointers and mouse control and how big

00:38:03   targets have to be, it's easier to measure that and it's generally a more precise thing.

00:38:09   Although you did the basics here for the little bar.

00:38:11   Trash is far away from the play button.

00:38:14   Play is not all the way on the left and trash is not all the way on the right because the

00:38:17   the middle is easier to hit than the edges of the screen.

00:38:19   Like it's, you know, everything you've just described

00:38:21   about the ergonomics of where items are

00:38:24   in relation to each other

00:38:25   and how easy it is to accidentally is revealed in the bar.

00:38:27   The only thing you can maybe argue about is

00:38:30   whether the center is appropriate for play,

00:38:32   but I think it is.

00:38:33   - Yeah, oh yeah, I don't think I would hear

00:38:37   any other arguments about that.

00:38:39   Again, it's like, if you think about

00:38:40   where else would you put these things?

00:38:42   Like you come to pretty similar conclusions,

00:38:45   I think with a lot of this stuff.

00:38:46   Anyway, so yeah, I'll look into the double gesture thing

00:38:49   'cause that does make some sense.

00:38:50   I do want to address though the whole like, you know,

00:38:54   HIG, adherence to standards, everything else as gospel.

00:38:58   Apple, and for those of you who don't know,

00:39:01   HIG is the Human Interface Guidelines.

00:39:03   It's been a document Apple has published forever

00:39:06   and they revised it over time with new OSs

00:39:09   and new, you know, new knowledge,

00:39:11   but basically it's like how, it's like the standards

00:39:13   for how your interface should look and work

00:39:15   and be laid out for Apple's platforms.

00:39:19   Over the years, there's always been tons of debate

00:39:21   over the HIG and whether it's okay to violate it,

00:39:23   when it's okay to violate it.

00:39:25   And I think it's similar to rules of grammar for poetry.

00:39:30   You know, I think it's like you're allowed to violate

00:39:33   the HIG if you know what you're doing

00:39:35   and you have good reason, basically.

00:39:37   Or, you know, it's not like this set in stone thing.

00:39:40   And Apple violates the HIG all the time with their own apps.

00:39:44   they blatantly violate it and they don't care

00:39:48   because they think they know better

00:39:50   and in many cases that's true.

00:39:52   I am a developer.

00:39:54   For years I said I am not a designer

00:39:58   and when it became clear to me

00:40:01   that I was doing the vast majority of the design in my apps,

00:40:04   I stopped saying that.

00:40:06   I think now, no matter what anyone else says,

00:40:09   I think of myself as an app developer and app designer,

00:40:13   combo in one, even though I'm not as good at the design part

00:40:16   as I am at the development part,

00:40:17   I now do both of those rules.

00:40:19   I think that I now have a good enough design sense

00:40:23   that I can judge or I can kind of have some leeway

00:40:28   in deciding when to break a standard rule.

00:40:32   And it doesn't always work, sometimes I have to roll it back

00:40:34   I have lots of crazy ideas and many of them are awful.

00:40:37   But I think I now have earned myself the right to break

00:40:42   sometimes because the fact is, in order to do good design

00:40:47   and especially in order to move things forward,

00:40:49   you have to break the rules.

00:40:51   The rules were never written to be gospel,

00:40:53   they were never written to be here to 100%.

00:40:56   As soon as any version of the HIG is published,

00:40:59   Apple already has apps out there that violate it

00:41:01   all over the place because the HIG is,

00:41:04   it's kind of like using stock UI kit controls

00:41:07   with stock themes on them.

00:41:09   It's like, you can do that.

00:41:11   For most people, that's a reasonable default,

00:41:13   that's a good starting place.

00:41:15   If you aren't confident whether you can break the rules,

00:41:17   you should just do that.

00:41:18   Like that's fine.

00:41:20   But it's also nice to have apps

00:41:23   that don't follow all the rules,

00:41:24   they push things forward or they do things differently.

00:41:27   And that is how progress gets made

00:41:29   and that is often, that often is necessary

00:41:32   to result in an overall better designed

00:41:34   or more usable app.

00:41:36   - Yeah, you know, the thing of it is is that

00:41:40   To me, the best user interface is one you don't have to think about, right?

00:41:44   And it just feels frictionless that things are where you expect them to be.

00:41:49   As an example, as an unrelated example, in my car, I feel like everything is where I expect it to be.

00:41:58   Even within iDrive, which a lot of people hate, it makes sense to my brain.

00:42:03   Maybe it doesn't to yours or to whomever's, but it makes sense to me.

00:42:07   And so the best, like I said, the best user interface is one you don't have to think about.

00:42:11   And the moment I have to think about that user interface, about how I accomplish a task,

00:42:17   then I'm experiencing friction and I'm taken out of the moment of what I'm trying to do.

00:42:23   And we were beating up a lot about this swipe to delete thing because I think I speak for

00:42:29   Jon in saying my natural gut reaction is to just immediately swipe and then I have to

00:42:34   think, "Wait, no. No, this is that place that doesn't work. Oh, what do I do? Oh, yeah, I tap,

00:42:40   and then I tap again. Well, that's fine. It's just, ugh, why can't it work the way I expect it to?"

00:42:46   And that doesn't really negate anything you said about how the HIG isn't...

00:42:51   it's not laws, it's guidelines. What was that stupid movie? Pirates of the Caribbean style.

00:43:00   But I don't know, it takes someone who is very confident

00:43:04   and with a lot of skill, like you had said,

00:43:06   to violate it in ways that make sense.

00:43:08   Like somebody in the chat room, I already lost who it was,

00:43:10   noted that pull to refresh wasn't in the HIG.

00:43:14   And that's a perfect example of something

00:43:17   that wasn't in the Human Interface Guidelines

00:43:18   but just made freaking sense.

00:43:20   And that was a great choice.

00:43:23   But other times, I think you have to be very confident

00:43:27   and very, very sure you're right

00:43:29   in order to get away with violating it.

00:43:32   I think that the HIG has changed over the years.

00:43:34   It's time for me to do a more old man stuff here.

00:43:37   When you guys talk about the HIG, you're talking about like the umpteenth iteration in the

00:43:42   modern era.

00:43:43   I know you guys started with Apple before iOS, but not much before like three years

00:43:46   before or something, right?

00:43:48   The human interface guidelines used to be very, very different than they are now.

00:43:53   One thing that they shared is the thing that you were talking about, Casey.

00:43:56   In the beginning, part of what was revolutionary about both the Mac and the human interface

00:44:01   guidelines that came along with it is the selling point of the Mac and the selling point

00:44:06   of the graphical user interface was there would be a standard set of controls and a

00:44:10   standard guideline for how to use them so that if you learned how to use one program

00:44:15   on a Mac, you could go to another program and reuse a lot of those skills because it

00:44:19   would also have a menu bar with pull-down menus.

00:44:21   It would also use the same command keys for things.

00:44:24   So it also have windows with the button the confirmation button on the right and the cancel button on the left and all you know

00:44:29   the whole nine yards interface consistency, which was a

00:44:32   revolutionary and novel thing in an age when on DOS you use word star and it had

00:44:37   Absolutely nothing in its interface in common with word perfect or whatever some other contemporary even though they were both word processors

00:44:44   They didn't copy and paste text the same way. They didn't format the same way

00:44:47   They didn't have the same menu structure didn't use the same keys. It was like oh, I know word star

00:44:50   Can I transfer those skills over to it?

00:44:53   You could transfer your basic skills of knowing where the keys are in the keyboard.

00:44:56   And maybe if you're lucky, they shared something about how their interface worked, but they

00:45:01   rapidly diverged.

00:45:02   Whereas if you use Microsoft Word or MacWrite, you know, some of the menus were the same.

00:45:08   There was a font menu, there was font sizing, the fact that there was a menu bar at all,

00:45:13   like that.

00:45:14   And just in general, using anything on the Mac, you were able to take the skills that

00:45:19   you learned and build on them to more rapidly get up to speed in another application. That's

00:45:23   the whole point of the interface guidelines. And the way the document was different is

00:45:27   that especially in the beginning, it did way, way less of explaining to you how things should

00:45:34   look or what you should do and way, way more of explaining the reasoning behind it. Do

00:45:40   this with your whatevers because and then explain the philosophy behind it. And very

00:45:45   often that philosophy had more of a foundation on, you know, user testing and stuff. If I

00:45:51   look at the HIG today, even just the first like Aqua HIG for Mac OS X, so much of it

00:45:58   is about how big the borders should be between items. Like, I mean, this isn't even talking

00:46:02   about like size of minimum, size of touch targets, we're just like, this is how you

00:46:05   should lay out your dialogues, this is how far away buttons, labels should be from their

00:46:08   fields and buttons should be from their whatever, and this is how tall this should be, and this

00:46:11   is how much padding there should be on all the things, it's like, that's all great, and

00:46:14   should totally have that, and interface builder should do it for you automatically, which

00:46:17   they added, you know, like, that's all fine. But that does not tell me why. And that is

00:46:23   how things should look, which is related to how they work very often in terms of the size

00:46:28   of touch targets and readability and why labels that are aligned this way are easier to scan

00:46:32   and all that other stuff. But there's less of the, less of the philosophy, less of like,

00:46:38   look, let me just explain to you the concepts. And here are some guidelines. But now you

00:46:43   you see these guidelines, you see here's the concepts that they flow out of. And when you're

00:46:46   provided with the concepts, and actually I feel like I've given more free reign in the

00:46:50   old days to say, follow these concepts in your custom interfaces and yours will feel

00:46:56   like ours rather than saying, "Just use our controls because that's the only way you could

00:47:00   possibly do this." The new ones feel more like, "Make your applications look like ours

00:47:05   down to the pixel, use our standard controls, and we won't really explain to you the reasons.

00:47:12   is this alignment or the spacing beneficial? Why should you phrase words in the dialogue

00:47:17   in this manner, whether it's imperative? Why should you use verbs or buttons or why should

00:47:21   you, you know, like the whole not why should you not use differently styled text and, you

00:47:25   know, they used to have reasons for it. They would say, "When in our testing we found out

00:47:28   if you put a bunch of bold words in dialogues, that's all people read, so don't make bold

00:47:31   words, make everything in the same consistent font." I'm just making this up, this is not

00:47:34   a real thing. But like, to explain the reasoning behind things. And that I feel like has been

00:47:39   lacking and because that's lacking I feel like the human interface guidelines

00:47:44   for iOS and even for the Mac are way less authoritative now in terms of how

00:47:50   how developers should take them like just because it's in the Hague that's

00:47:55   just one other person's or a couple other people's ideas and it's important

00:47:58   for you to know what they expect from you from consistent for the sake of

00:48:02   consistency with the other applications but if they're not going to explain

00:48:05   their reasoning and you suspect that you might have a better way I think you are

00:48:08   much more likely today to actually have a better way than you were back in the old days

00:48:13   where A, nobody knew anything and B, Apple knew so much more than everybody else because

00:48:19   developers were coming upon this for the first time and Apple at least had put many, many

00:48:23   years into it and they were the world's leading experts on making consumer-facing personal

00:48:27   computer gooeys for a very long time and they would show their work. They would say, "Here's

00:48:32   why. Here's why we're doing all this stuff." And you'd read it and you go, "Oh, that makes

00:48:36   And if they said they did a bunch of user testing, you don't have a user experience

00:48:39   lab for you to test this stuff.

00:48:41   I have you.

00:48:42   Yeah.

00:48:43   Part of the transition from the jobs era was it seemed like he was much less of a fan of

00:48:49   the scientific method and user testing and much more of a fan of using his gut.

00:48:53   And his gut was pretty good, but sometimes he got like stitched leather and stuff.

00:48:57   So yeah.

00:48:58   Yeah. Anyway, all this is to say that I put much less stake in Apple's human interface guidelines

00:49:07   now than I did many decades ago. But the guiding principle that I think every developer uses,

00:49:15   who's making their applications, is to try to make it fit in with what the user expects. Again,

00:49:22   if you made a Mac application and you didn't have a menu bar or the file and edit menus were

00:49:26   in the opposite order. Even if you think you have a really good reason for that, it's probably

00:49:31   not a good idea. But if you want to put different items in your file menu, as long as "Quit"

00:49:35   is at the bottom, if you're really old, that's where it used to be everybody. As long as

00:49:38   "Quit" is at the bottom, people are okay with you shoving in a few other items. And third

00:49:42   party applications, like Marco said, push the interface forward because the Apple can't

00:49:47   cover all your possible scenarios. So if Photoshop starts doing something and Photoshop does

00:49:51   it for 25 years, eventually, whether that's in the Human Interface Guidelines or not,

00:49:55   if you're making a graphics application, it would be a good idea for you to perhaps take

00:50:00   a few conventions from Photoshop because it's so important in its field. And I think that's

00:50:05   the same way a lot of Twitter clients can get away with the side swipes, which I don't

00:50:08   know who invented that, but it's all over the place in Twitter clients. Because if you

00:50:12   use a lot of Twitter clients, eventually that's what you get used to. And in the realm of

00:50:16   podcast apps, I feel like if you use a lot of podcast apps, I don't use a lot of them,

00:50:20   but I imagine there's some conventions for controlling things that would have some commonality

00:50:24   between them that you would begin to read the landscape and get used to using.

00:50:28   Not that you want every genre of application to be different, but where you start falling

00:50:34   back to the bedrock of expectation is for things like muscle memory and the fact that

00:50:39   you're using a table view at all and the fact that the transitions between things are sort

00:50:42   of mental and spatial model of how the application flows from left to right and coming up from

00:50:47   the bottom.

00:50:48   Lots of judgment calls to make there, but in general you try to keep it consistent.

00:50:53   And if you miss one little tiny corner where now delete works a little bit differently,

00:50:58   it's probably not a big deal, especially since delete is probably not a common operation.

00:51:02   But if it's a place where you can return that, where you can fulfill that expectation in

00:51:12   a way that lets you retain all the other benefits, it's a pretty clean one.

00:51:17   I would question even more the feature you did have there, which I mentioned before,

00:51:19   where it's like being able to dismiss a thing

00:51:21   that comes up from the bottom by swiping sideways.

00:51:24   Makes not much sense, spatially speaking,

00:51:27   and it's probably a misfeatured.

00:51:28   The only reason it's there is to honor the muscle memory

00:51:31   of users of your specific application,

00:51:34   because if you did never use the previous version

00:51:36   of Overcast, you would never expect that to work

00:51:38   and you would never even try it, right?

00:51:40   But you're just doing that to just give a little help

00:51:41   to those people, and I think this is the same category

00:51:43   of things, in fact, I would trade these in terms of

00:51:47   what is more beneficial in the long run.

00:51:49   I would say, if I had to sacrifice one,

00:51:51   which you don't, you should just keep both of them,

00:51:52   but if I had to sacrifice one, I would say,

00:51:54   the side swipe people will get used to the card coming

00:51:56   from the bottom pretty quick,

00:51:58   and it's just a gesture in a different direction,

00:52:00   whereas the swipe to deleteers are still being trained

00:52:03   by the whole rest of their entire iOS device

00:52:05   to keep doing that.

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00:54:04   (jazzy music)

00:54:07   - Before we move on from Overcast,

00:54:09   I did want to briefly ask you about this new ad model.

00:54:15   and I'm not entirely sure I understand the nuances of it.

00:54:20   And so I'm going to defer my chief summarizer

00:54:24   and chief role to you, Marco,

00:54:25   if you could summarize what this new setup is

00:54:29   and kinda how it works in broad strokes.

00:54:32   - Sure, so basically before,

00:54:34   I have, as John likes to remind me,

00:54:38   I change my business model on Overcast

00:54:39   roughly every nine to 18 months.

00:54:43   I've gone through many of them now.

00:54:44   The one I've settled on since this past September,

00:54:47   which was just kind of a tweak to the one before it,

00:54:49   is basically ads as like the main source of income

00:54:53   and then paid subscriptions to remove the ads

00:54:56   if you want to.

00:54:58   And the way this has worked out over time

00:55:00   is actually not that way.

00:55:02   The way it has worked out since September

00:55:03   when I added these Google AdMob ads,

00:55:07   and by the way, just as a quick clarification,

00:55:09   I know there are other ad networks,

00:55:12   but they're all worse in some major way.

00:55:14   Like either they have creepier code

00:55:17   or they require more SDK integration,

00:55:19   they're kind of like meta networks

00:55:22   where they have to add lots of SDKs to your app

00:55:24   for all these different companies.

00:55:25   Or they just don't sell enough inventory.

00:55:28   You end up getting very little money from your ads

00:55:30   and a lot of like unsold inventory

00:55:32   that you have to just like show nothing for

00:55:34   or show your own, you know, splash thing for, whatever else.

00:55:37   So I think if you're gonna do third party ads,

00:55:40   I think AdMob is the way to do it.

00:55:43   But what I found with AdMob ultimately is that

00:55:46   the ads were of lower quality than I wanted

00:55:48   and they made very little money.

00:55:51   And as I kept going through and going in their control panel

00:55:55   and turning off various categories of crappy ads

00:55:58   that I didn't wanna see, things like casino stuff

00:56:02   and weird sexy dating services,

00:56:05   I would find those and I'd turn them off

00:56:07   and that'd make even less money

00:56:08   it turns out all the crap ads make a lot of money,

00:56:10   which is why they run them.

00:56:12   So basically it was making very little money.

00:56:15   It ended up like, I thought I was gonna make

00:56:17   most money from the ads,

00:56:18   and then some money from subscriptions,

00:56:21   and it ended up that I was making 90% of the money

00:56:23   from subscriptions.

00:56:24   Totally flipped, and that's actually fine.

00:56:27   I like it that way.

00:56:28   I'd rather have people paying me

00:56:29   than have to deal with ads.

00:56:31   And the ads, the presence of the ads

00:56:34   increased subscriptions dramatically

00:56:35   from the previous system,

00:56:36   which is basically pay if you feel like it.

00:56:38   like patronage, you know, just pay if you like me.

00:56:40   And that worked a little bit,

00:56:42   but it wasn't working enough.

00:56:44   So it succeeded as a business model,

00:56:48   but not because of the ads.

00:56:50   It succeeded because there were ads there,

00:56:53   but the ads could be anything.

00:56:54   Honestly, I'm sure I might actually see

00:56:56   a slightly lower subscription rate

00:56:58   because the ads are no longer crappy,

00:57:01   but they're also now on the Now Playing screen,

00:57:04   so you see them more.

00:57:05   So I don't know, that'll probably balance itself out.

00:57:07   Anyway, so I decided that I was no longer interested

00:57:09   in running Google AdMob ads for lots of different reasons.

00:57:12   Quality of the ads, low revenue, those are major factors,

00:57:17   but also as I talked about in the blog post

00:57:18   and a little bit here, I think I'm no longer

00:57:21   very comfortable embedding closed source ad libraries

00:57:25   into my app from ad companies.

00:57:28   I think as a developer, you have to be conscious of that.

00:57:31   There has to be a really good reason for you to embed

00:57:33   someone else's closed source code in your app

00:57:35   because that can do anything and it's on you.

00:57:38   Like that can access all of your user data,

00:57:41   whatever users are doing with the app,

00:57:43   whatever they are entering into the app,

00:57:45   that code has complete access to it.

00:57:48   That code can get you in trouble with Apple,

00:57:50   that code can do things that are prohibited,

00:57:51   that code can require you to have all these

00:57:54   advertising disclaimers that your users see

00:57:57   or that app review sees that can get you

00:57:59   in trouble with app review.

00:58:00   There's all sorts of like baggage that you sign up for.

00:58:05   when you are adding someone else's closed source code

00:58:08   to your app.

00:58:10   And so I thought there had to be a really, really good

00:58:11   reason for that to be in there,

00:58:13   and I no longer had a good reason.

00:58:15   The only reason I did it in September was

00:58:16   I thought it was the only option.

00:58:18   The option between that and going out of business, basically.

00:58:21   And so I took that option,

00:58:23   but then the business model changed

00:58:25   and the environment changed.

00:58:26   You know, that all happened in September.

00:58:29   Then November happened.

00:58:30   Then January happened.

00:58:32   It's a different world now.

00:58:33   And so now I basically went to this saying like,

00:58:37   "All right, well now let me see what can I do myself?"

00:58:41   And because the Google Ads made so little money for me,

00:58:47   and other people have more success with Google Ads

00:58:50   than I have, I don't wanna say that they don't work

00:58:54   for anybody 'cause they obviously work for lots of people.

00:58:57   But my tap-through rate was awful.

00:59:02   And most of, basically how much money you make

00:59:05   depends extremely heavily on your tap through rate.

00:59:08   And there's lots of reasons for that,

00:59:10   none of which I was willing to fix.

00:59:11   Like so, there's like, for example,

00:59:13   if you want a, if you want to make more money,

00:59:16   you should put the ad somewhere where people

00:59:19   are more likely to accidentally tap them.

00:59:21   I'm not gonna do that.

00:59:23   You should have the ads on every screen of your app,

00:59:25   or more screens of your app, but I wasn't doing that.

00:59:27   I had them only in the list screens before

00:59:28   'cause they were too big to fit, I'm now playing.

00:59:31   you should enable things like animated banners.

00:59:33   I didn't wanna do that, 'cause those pay better.

00:59:36   There's all sorts of things that you can do

00:59:38   to make ads work better that I was unwilling to do.

00:59:41   So it's not entirely AdMob's fault

00:59:44   that I had such a bad experience.

00:59:45   It was just my app and my strict requirements for it,

00:59:49   just what I could stomach and what I was willing to do.

00:59:51   Anyway, I decided since AdMob ads

00:59:54   were making so little for me,

00:59:55   I could replace them with pretty much anything,

00:59:58   and it probably wouldn't negatively affect my business.

01:00:01   (laughs)

01:00:02   So, because like, the main risk with running my own ads

01:00:06   is what if no one buys them?

01:00:08   What if it turns out they're really hard to sell?

01:00:10   Which they might be, you know?

01:00:11   These aren't podcast ads, they're display ads.

01:00:13   And display ads are hard to sell right now.

01:00:16   I only have very, very limited data right now

01:00:19   with these trial partners that I have now in there,

01:00:23   but I have no idea even what kind of views

01:00:28   or tap through rates or subscription rates

01:00:30   that they're gonna get in like three months.

01:00:32   You know, right now it's all, everyone's looking at them

01:00:34   and poking them and seeing what they're like,

01:00:36   so the data right now is nice,

01:00:37   but it's not really representative probably.

01:00:39   So I have no idea how they're gonna perform,

01:00:42   but the fact is I am way happier with them.

01:00:45   They are totally under my control.

01:00:48   There is no weird closed source code

01:00:50   going to the world's biggest advertising company.

01:00:52   It is just completely my app doing my thing,

01:00:55   the way I designed it, under my control.

01:00:58   The privacy of them is great because I don't collect

01:01:01   anything 'cause I don't want any of your data.

01:01:04   I want the least data I can possibly get from you

01:01:06   to make my app work.

01:01:07   If you ever are curious what I call it,

01:01:10   read the privacy policy in Overcast.

01:01:12   It's very short, human readable, I wrote it all.

01:01:14   It's very, very clear.

01:01:16   And so I'm much happier with this setup now.

01:01:21   And so what the setup is is my own ads.

01:01:25   They show in the Now Playing screen

01:01:26   and in the ad podcast screen,

01:01:29   the ad unit can show either ads for websites,

01:01:33   apps in the app store, or podcasts in Overcast.

01:01:36   And so you can actually advertise for a podcast

01:01:40   in the podcast app, and when you tap these ads,

01:01:42   it brings up the sheet that is just

01:01:44   the Overcast ad podcast screen, the standard screen.

01:01:47   And so it has all the episodes in it,

01:01:49   they all have all the buttons that Casey and Jon hate,

01:01:51   with you can add to queue, you can subscribe there,

01:01:54   you can download whatever else.

01:01:55   And so it's all this, the standard native interface.

01:01:59   I don't know how many podcasters are going to be willing

01:02:02   to pay for ads long term.

01:02:04   I can tell you I have an inbox full of emails

01:02:06   from podcasters who are interested right now

01:02:08   that I am having a very hard time answering all at once.

01:02:11   However, there's tons of interest right now,

01:02:15   but once you get into nitty gritty of getting people

01:02:18   to actually commit and to pay, everything changes.

01:02:22   So I have no idea what it's going to be like long term.

01:02:25   But the fact is, I don't need to sell very many ads

01:02:29   to make more than I was making before.

01:02:32   And even if I make less than what I was making before,

01:02:34   as long as people keep subscribing, I'm still fine.

01:02:37   So I think I made the right move.

01:02:40   Also, by the same logic and for all the same reasons,

01:02:44   I also in this update removed the fabric analytics

01:02:47   from the app, so there's no more third-party

01:02:49   analytics services either.

01:02:51   All I do now is I have a very, very basic analytics

01:02:55   class that I wrote myself that just logs

01:02:58   some very basic information and it can be used

01:03:00   to do things like what you were describing earlier,

01:03:02   John, about like, you know, measuring how many people

01:03:04   use the delete button or whatever you were asking about.

01:03:07   I can do stuff like that.

01:03:08   Right now, I'm measuring almost nothing in the app.

01:03:10   I talked a little bit about this on the radar this week.

01:03:12   The short version there is I've done analytics

01:03:15   for a while now with Fabric and I found some actionable

01:03:19   things from it but most of the data I was collecting

01:03:21   was neither useful nor actionable.

01:03:24   I find analytics are great to,

01:03:27   like when you have a specific question

01:03:28   you're trying to answer.

01:03:29   So like when I was developing,

01:03:31   I was curious a while back, maybe a year ago now,

01:03:36   so I added analytics for what type of output device

01:03:41   people were listening on.

01:03:42   And I learned from that that a lot of people

01:03:44   use the built-in speaker, way more than I thought.

01:03:47   And so that's why I did the voice boost

01:03:49   optimized speaker profile for the iPhone speaker.

01:03:52   because I realized like wow, a lot of people do this,

01:03:55   this is worth focusing attention on.

01:03:57   I also learned during times like that,

01:03:59   I measured parts of the watch app,

01:04:01   like does anybody even use the watch app?

01:04:03   What features of the watch app do they use?

01:04:05   Like do they actually go to the force touch menu,

01:04:07   by the way, no.

01:04:09   Do they actually like ever use the buttons on it

01:04:13   or are they mostly using it to read information

01:04:15   as like a glance, answer yes.

01:04:19   So I learned stuff like that,

01:04:20   But I can do that myself with very basic analytics.

01:04:23   Like I don't need everything that a full blown

01:04:26   analytics package offers today,

01:04:27   like various conversion tracking different things

01:04:30   and funnels all over the place and all these retention.

01:04:34   That's the kind of stuff that venture funded companies need.

01:04:37   I don't need that.

01:04:38   I don't have anybody asking for that information.

01:04:41   I don't care about that information,

01:04:42   so I don't need to collect it.

01:04:43   So basically, I'm getting away now

01:04:45   with incredibly simple analytics of just my own

01:04:48   hand rolled thing.

01:04:50   oh god, I'm a hipster.

01:04:52   My own art is anal analytics,

01:04:55   and now it's just a lot simpler and lower tech,

01:04:58   but now I can tell things like,

01:05:01   how many people are using different devices?

01:05:03   Like how many iPhone 7s versus 7+s do I have?

01:05:05   And that helps me decide things like,

01:05:07   what should I optimize this interface for?

01:05:10   Should I optimize it for 5.5 inch screens,

01:05:12   or for 4.7, or for 4.0?

01:05:15   Stuff like that.

01:05:15   That stuff I need to know.

01:05:17   I don't need to know the level of detail

01:05:19   that all these commercial analytics packages provide,

01:05:22   and especially at the cost of having their own

01:05:24   closed source code in my app,

01:05:26   and exposing all my user data to them.

01:05:28   - The thing I like best about these new ads

01:05:31   is the fact that they are podcast ads and a podcast player,

01:05:34   so they have built-in relevance.

01:05:35   And if you ever run out of inventory,

01:05:37   which you wouldn't, 'cause you could just lower the price

01:05:38   and get any inventory you wanted,

01:05:39   but if you ever did run out,

01:05:41   I would be happy to see that slot spilled

01:05:43   was just pulled from your own most recommended section,

01:05:45   'cause you have ready-made inventory of,

01:05:48   you know, I don't know how relevant, but like, hey, here are some popular, here are

01:05:53   some podcasts with some episodes that are being recommended a lot in Insert

01:05:56   Time Window, and then just throw them in the most recommended thing, you tap them

01:06:00   and you go right to the episode. It's like a no-brainer. I also echo your

01:06:06   fear that they will not be offensive enough to make people pay because

01:06:10   they're not, they're pleasant, like they're podcast ads and they're not, you

01:06:14   It's not be like, what was that, a mesothelioma

01:06:19   or whatever.

01:06:20   - Yep, yep.

01:06:20   (laughing)

01:06:21   By the way, I do wanna clarify, they're not all

01:06:24   podcast ads, there's an ad for Hover,

01:06:25   there's an ad for Linode.

01:06:27   There are a couple of website ads in there.

01:06:28   - Well, now that you mention that,

01:06:30   when I saw the Hover ad, I was like,

01:06:32   'cause I see Hover and I think, oh, that's a podcast ad too,

01:06:35   because obviously they advertise on a lot of podcasts

01:06:37   that I listen to.

01:06:38   Imagine if it was synchronized,

01:06:41   like when the Hover ad is playing on the show,

01:06:42   that the hover ad got, the hover banner got to display down in the thing and included

01:06:47   the people's codes.

01:06:48   There's all sorts of crazy business ideas that you could do here.

01:06:51   Or competitive advertising where people could buy podcast advertising against, that would

01:06:55   run against other podcasts in the same genre.

01:06:59   This is all getting way too complicated and I agree that if, you know, if this is simply

01:07:03   a way to replace that 10% of money with a more pleasant experience, then it's a win

01:07:08   no matter what.

01:07:09   I think that kind of like the, what was this, I think it was on Rectifs, I was talking about

01:07:15   the fantasy Google ad that, you know, it's far fewer ads but far more valuable because

01:07:19   they're better targeted by some magic AI thing.

01:07:22   I think even just basic better targeting of the fact that, hey, I know you're interested

01:07:26   in podcasts because you're listening to one.

01:07:28   You are a great audience for me to advertise other podcasts to because you are a proven

01:07:32   podcast listener and you're using a podcast client and guess what?

01:07:35   here's another podcast, and that's why you can charge

01:07:38   more money for that than you can for an ad,

01:07:40   for even something like Hover or something,

01:07:42   because although they advertise on lots of podcasts,

01:07:45   Hover is not technically podcast related,

01:07:47   but another podcast is, and then a podcast

01:07:50   can spend money advertising to each other

01:07:51   and it can do just like the App Store ads.

01:07:54   - Yeah, cool, 'cause that's one of the reasons

01:07:56   I made this for Podcast X, 'cause I was like,

01:07:58   and I've had all sorts of crazy ideas

01:08:00   on how to possibly sell these things and things like that,

01:08:04   but ultimately it came down to like,

01:08:06   of course this is the perfect place for an ad for a podcast.

01:08:10   The only question is, the only doubt in my mind is

01:08:13   whether enough podcasters will be willing and able to pay

01:08:18   for an ad for their shows, 'cause most podcasters

01:08:20   don't make a lot of money from sponsorships.

01:08:22   Most podcasts don't even have sponsorships.

01:08:24   Most podcasts don't have audiences

01:08:26   big enough to get sponsors.

01:08:28   So how many podcasts are gonna be willing to pay for ads?

01:08:32   Like, I have no idea.

01:08:34   It doesn't take a lot to make this work.

01:08:37   You don't need thousands of advertisers,

01:08:41   you need tens of advertisers to make this work really well.

01:08:45   So I think it will probably be okay.

01:08:49   I think one of the big challenges is gonna be,

01:08:52   I don't think podcasters have ever had a way,

01:08:57   have ever even thought about buying ads,

01:08:58   because there's never really been a place

01:09:00   where you could buy an ad for a podcast that made sense.

01:09:03   'cause as you were just saying,

01:09:04   you can't just buy a Google search ad

01:09:06   or a Facebook ad for your podcast

01:09:08   and get anybody to click through

01:09:09   because you start targeting really fast there.

01:09:14   The chances that they are a podcast listener

01:09:16   and who wanna listen to your show,

01:09:18   that combination gets multiplied

01:09:19   and that's gonna be a pretty low number.

01:09:22   - There's too much friction in other venues

01:09:24   of doing it on the web.

01:09:25   If you're not already in a podcast player,

01:09:28   getting successfully subscribed to a podcast

01:09:30   in your player of choice is difficult

01:09:33   I encounter that when I'm on the web and I find a podcast that I like and I'm disappointed

01:09:37   when I don't see either a link to the overcast URL or I can just save an overcast.

01:09:40   If they just give me an iTunes link or something like that, that's not no good to me.

01:09:43   I don't use that player, right?

01:09:45   Because the website can't know what player I use.

01:09:47   But if I'm already in the player that I use and there's a one-tab way to get an episode,

01:09:52   that's way less friction.

01:09:53   Yeah, exactly.

01:09:55   So I am really curious to see how this plays out and to see who buys these ads.

01:10:01   Once people can actually start seeing my prices publicly,

01:10:05   like a few emails, once people have data

01:10:08   of what a month worth of clicks

01:10:11   and new subscriptions look like,

01:10:12   and for how much money, that could change things.

01:10:16   'Cause right now, none of us, me, the advertisers,

01:10:18   none of us know whether these are gonna be a good deal

01:10:21   or not, 'cause we don't have enough data yet.

01:10:23   So we're gonna find out.

01:10:25   And it might be an incredibly good deal.

01:10:26   It might end up being by far the best way

01:10:28   to get new listeners to a podcast.

01:10:31   Or it might be that there's just too few people

01:10:34   for it to make any financial sense.

01:10:36   I don't know, we're gonna find out.

01:10:38   And if that's the case,

01:10:39   then I'll just fill it up with hover ads, I don't care.

01:10:42   - So, a few quick hits regarding that.

01:10:45   Do you want to disclose even an order of magnitude

01:10:48   of pricing, like we talking tens of dollars

01:10:50   or ten thousands of dollars, or can you narrow it down?

01:10:54   Because I assume that you're gonna get a thousand emails

01:10:56   about, you know, I don't even know how much this costs,

01:10:58   can I afford this?

01:11:00   So is there like a rough order of magnitude you can say for pricing as we record tonight,

01:11:04   which obviously could change?

01:11:05   - No.

01:11:06   - Okay, that's fair.

01:11:07   - Ask me in a few weeks.

01:11:10   That's when I will have a much better idea of what these things will actually be charged

01:11:13   for long term.

01:11:18   - Marco is currently trying to talk himself off the ledge of making this an auction system,

01:11:21   so let's all root for him in this endeavor.

01:11:24   One system that I thought was,

01:11:26   there should be some way to

01:11:30   kind of automatically scale with demand.

01:11:31   And so one thing I thought was just like,

01:11:34   just sell them for 30 days and just say,

01:11:37   here's how many ads there are in the system right now.

01:11:40   And keep the price fixed.

01:11:41   And just, you know, the market kind of works that out.

01:11:44   'Cause if the price is really low,

01:11:46   then a bunch of people will buy it

01:11:48   and then every ad will just get fewer impressions.

01:11:50   So it kind of is self-regulating, I think.

01:11:54   I don't know.

01:11:55   I'm throwing around all these different ideas in my head

01:11:57   of how this should be billed, how this should be sold.

01:12:00   And there's a reason why there are so few

01:12:02   initial partners on board,

01:12:03   because everyone who's advertising it right now,

01:12:06   I've worked out, I've gone to them in advance and said,

01:12:10   like, "Hey, here's what's going on.

01:12:11   "I don't know what this is gonna be yet.

01:12:14   "And so we're gonna go into this kind of like trial mode,

01:12:18   "and we're gonna share data.

01:12:20   I'm gonna tell you what this gets you,

01:12:22   and you're gonna tell me if you get click-throughs

01:12:24   on your website and everything else,

01:12:25   and we're gonna figure out how this actually works.

01:12:27   Because right now I have no idea.

01:12:29   So it's way too early.

01:12:30   I mean, this has been in the store for like a day and a half,

01:12:33   so it's just way too early for me to have useful data yet.

01:12:37   - So what is the appropriate mechanism

01:12:40   by which you could be contacted

01:12:42   if somebody wants to buy an ad?

01:12:44   - If you go to the site, go to the contact page,

01:12:46   and it says there, it says,

01:12:48   for ad inquiries, email here.

01:12:50   So do that, but it might be--

01:12:52   - What side is that, overcast.fm?

01:12:53   - Yeah, and it might be a week or two

01:12:56   before I can actually get back to you with something useful.

01:12:59   - All right, and then finally,

01:13:02   and this is more out of my own curiosity,

01:13:03   how are you, are you providing,

01:13:06   I mean, you just hinted at it a second ago,

01:13:08   are you providing any sort of analytics,

01:13:10   and is there a portal for that,

01:13:11   or is this just you ripping off emails when the time comes?

01:13:13   Like, what's your intention with that?

01:13:15   - My intention is that people who buy the ads

01:13:19   will be able to log into a portal

01:13:22   and see the performance of the ads they bought.

01:13:24   I haven't actually built that yet.

01:13:26   I just have one giant dashboard

01:13:28   that I can see in my admin panel.

01:13:30   I can see how they're doing.

01:13:31   And I'm only tracking,

01:13:33   I say all this in the privacy policy,

01:13:34   the only thing I'm tracking is three things.

01:13:36   Clicks, views, and subscriptions if they're podcast ads.

01:13:40   That's it.

01:13:41   For websites, it's just clicks and views.

01:13:43   And they can be targeted by podcast category.

01:13:45   So you can say show this to everybody,

01:13:47   or you can say show this to people who listen

01:13:49   to shows that are in the iTunes technology category.

01:13:52   I have targeting by top level podcast category

01:13:55   in the directory optionally.

01:13:57   And so that helps a little bit.

01:13:59   But that's it.

01:14:00   So it's a very, very simple system.

01:14:03   It's very low on data because A, I find too much data

01:14:08   in that situation kind of gross,

01:14:10   and B, I don't believe is necessary for this.

01:14:12   So we'll find out.

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01:15:38   So I feel like we should spend a few minutes talking about how much of a cesspool Uber

01:15:43   Uber is, because woof.

01:15:45   - Ugh, what a disaster that can--

01:15:46   - What a frickin' disaster.

01:15:48   - And this latest horrible thing that they did,

01:15:51   it's just the latest in a string of horrible things

01:15:53   they have done over the relatively short time

01:15:56   they've been in existence.

01:15:57   Like, they're a horrible company, run by horrible people.

01:16:01   - Yeah, so if you're not aware,

01:16:03   a woman who goes by Susan J. Fowler has written,

01:16:06   reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber.

01:16:09   It is not a terribly long post,

01:16:12   But it's long enough that you're going to want to leave yourself a few minutes to read

01:16:15   it.

01:16:16   And you absolutely should read it.

01:16:19   And it is worth reading in its entirety.

01:16:20   Don't skip around.

01:16:22   It's worth it.

01:16:23   Because it is flabbergasting how unbelievable it was, the behavior of Susan's superiors

01:16:33   and in some cases peers, and the HR department at Uber.

01:16:37   Suffice to say, I don't know if I should really pull a summarizer in chief on this one because

01:16:43   there's so much to this post.

01:16:45   But the short version, and again, please read it, please, please read it, but the short

01:16:50   version is she was sexually harassed in various ways and in various magnitude, pretty much

01:16:57   from the moment she got there until the moment she left.

01:16:59   And to me, the most despicable thing that I found about this whole story was that she

01:17:06   She was told when she bubbled up these complaints to HR at Uber that she was the only one complaining

01:17:12   about this one particular individual.

01:17:14   Yeah, it was a first time offense.

01:17:17   Right, I'm sorry, that's an important distinction.

01:17:20   That's absolutely correct.

01:17:21   It was a first time offense.

01:17:22   We'll call this person Bob.

01:17:23   Bob has never done this before.

01:17:24   It's Bob's first time being a complete turd.

01:17:28   It's first time, "Yeah, I'm sure he didn't mean it.

01:17:30   Don't worry about it."

01:17:31   Which is such a terrible way to approach this kind of a situation.

01:17:35   I don't understand why.

01:17:37   - Yeah, like why is the first offense even considered free?

01:17:39   Even if it was true, which it wasn't,

01:17:42   but why is that even an okay response, even if it was true?

01:17:46   - Yeah, I mean, an ATP tips during the chat

01:17:48   is phrasing it well, and this is all caps,

01:17:50   but my voice is shot, so I'm not gonna scream.

01:17:52   Is this first grade?

01:17:53   Why the F is sexual harassment a strike-based system?

01:17:56   Like, truth. - Right, exactly.

01:17:58   - Why is this the way this works?

01:17:59   - You don't get free strikes on that.

01:18:01   No, immediately fired, maybe arrested.

01:18:05   - Oh, God.

01:18:06   - Yeah, I completely agree.

01:18:07   So anyway, so Susan ends up talking to some of her peers

01:18:11   and her peers are like, "Oh, that's weird.

01:18:12   "I was talking to HR about Bob and they told me

01:18:16   "that it was a first time offense.

01:18:18   "And we are not the same person.

01:18:20   "We are not reporting the same incident.

01:18:22   "Looks to us like HR is full of crap."

01:18:25   And so, you know, there's always a chance

01:18:29   that this is all fabricated, but man,

01:18:32   I don't believe that for a second.

01:18:34   Like this is not one of those rage quit kind of posts where,

01:18:38   "Oh, you know, I didn't fit in well

01:18:40   and I'm just gonna make up stuff about..."

01:18:42   No, that's not how this reads at all.

01:18:44   And this reads like a intelligent, mature person

01:18:48   just stating the facts of what they went through

01:18:51   and God, is it terrible.

01:18:52   And there was another, there was a report that came out,

01:18:55   I don't have a link handy,

01:18:56   but we'll find it for the show notes about how,

01:18:58   and I'm butchering the details,

01:19:00   but it was something like,

01:19:01   If you don't make men use their real names or anything like that, about 5% of them think

01:19:09   that they have any room to grow with regard to relations to women or other minority groups.

01:19:15   And guess what?

01:19:16   All of us are a problem.

01:19:17   I like to think of myself as relatively woke in this department, and I'm a damn problem.

01:19:21   I don't get this right all the time.

01:19:23   And oh god, the utter overwhelming self-confidence that these Uber employees have shown, not

01:19:34   the women, the men in HR, is just preposterous.

01:19:38   Like oh my god, I just, I can't believe that this is a thing and that it's continued going

01:19:44   on.

01:19:45   Now since this blog post, Travis Kalanick, Kalanick, is that his name?

01:19:49   The CEO, whoever he is.

01:19:52   Because to his credit, I guess, taken a pretty strong stance on this in that he's taking

01:19:59   it as true, he's taking it as evidence that there is a real problem, but I don't know,

01:20:05   man.

01:20:06   It's pretty late.

01:20:07   Like, everyone has known that Uber is really frickin' slimy in a lot of frickin' ways,

01:20:11   and now is when you're finally jumping on board and being like, "Oh, you know, maybe

01:20:13   we have something to change."

01:20:14   It's just this whole situation is just so freakin' gross.

01:20:18   - Yeah, I mean, that's like, the CEOs in these situations

01:20:21   always act so surprised, I had no idea this was going on.

01:20:25   Okay, like, that's either a complete BS,

01:20:28   or you were really doing a bad job at looking

01:20:31   at your own company for things that should be

01:20:34   really common sense, like something is seriously wrong here.

01:20:38   It's not like the evil HR department is the cause of this.

01:20:43   No, like, the HR department is in service to the company.

01:20:47   to the company.

01:20:49   The HR department, it's not anybody's friend,

01:20:51   it's not like a third party judge system.

01:20:55   HR, their main role is to prevent the company

01:20:59   from getting sued and to mitigate risks

01:21:01   that might cause that.

01:21:02   - This HR department isn't even doing that job well,

01:21:04   by the way. - That's true.

01:21:05   - Like so many parts of this company,

01:21:07   this HR department is terrible,

01:21:09   even at its ostensible job,

01:21:12   not even at its theoretical job in the ideal world.

01:21:14   - Right, but the point, the HR department's job

01:21:17   is to protect the company from its employees.

01:21:20   That is literally their job.

01:21:22   If the HR department is being directed

01:21:26   or being incentivized to do horrible things

01:21:28   by the people who run the company,

01:21:30   they're going to do horrible things.

01:21:32   And it should come as no surprise,

01:21:35   and I'm pretty sure it's BS that it did come as a surprise,

01:21:38   I'm pretty sure this was no surprise,

01:21:40   it should come as no surprise to the CEO of a company

01:21:43   that horrible stuff goes on in HR

01:21:46   when he himself seems to be a pretty horrible person

01:21:51   from the little bit that I know,

01:21:53   and the company does lots of horrible things

01:21:55   and has a complete culture of being horrible and toxic

01:21:59   and disrespectful of everyone, especially women.

01:22:03   This is not the first time they've had problems

01:22:05   with women in particular.

01:22:08   This is not their first one, not by a long shot.

01:22:10   And so, his whole thing about, I'm shocked,

01:22:14   I'm gonna investigate this immediately, that's BS.

01:22:17   That's complete BS.

01:22:19   Yeah, so I don't believe that for a second.

01:22:22   None of this should be forgiven,

01:22:23   and none of it should be isolated to a couple bad apples

01:22:27   in the HR department, 'cause it's not that.

01:22:28   It's a deep-rooted cultural problem.

01:22:31   - Oh, it's a systemic failure.

01:22:32   It is absolutely a systemic failure.

01:22:34   - And it comes right from the top.

01:22:36   It comes right from the top.

01:22:37   - That's why this is such a great example

01:22:39   Like very often people who are not steeped in these issues don't spend all the time,

01:22:43   you know, reading about them or whatever, hear the phrase "institutional_," "institutional

01:22:48   sexism," "institutional bias," or whatever, and it seems like a buzzwordy thing that doesn't

01:22:52   make any sense, but a reasonable working definition is based on examples like this where you find

01:22:59   yourself in a situation where there is some kind of institution or authority.

01:23:04   That structure could be the government, but it could also be the company that you work

01:23:07   which even though it is not the government, it is an organizational structure with authority

01:23:13   over your life that you work within for as long as you decide you want to work there.

01:23:17   And in this case, as in so many other cases in many other companies, forever and ever,

01:23:23   the institution has certain attitudes towards whatever you want to be, whether it be minorities

01:23:32   or older people or women or whatever and those policies and biases and views come through

01:23:41   in the rules that govern everybody else.

01:23:43   So you have an HR department that if it was functioning well in its role as Marco described

01:23:49   it to protect the company from its people, you know, part of it is HR like any other

01:23:54   part of the company is supposed to make the company more successful.

01:23:58   So if there is a problematic employee, HR has to deal with that.

01:24:02   If that employee is doing things that could get the company sued, it is in the company

01:24:06   and HR's best interest to solve that problem, and the most reasonable way to solve it is

01:24:13   to try to make the company a place where people will want to work, and that usually means

01:24:17   taking the toxic person and, you know, disciplining them or getting rid of them, right?

01:24:23   It becomes much more difficult when that person is high up in the organization, or as they

01:24:26   say on this thing was a high performer.

01:24:28   Yeah, where that person's valuable to the company.

01:24:32   Right, right, right.

01:24:33   But you know, there is the larger value to the company.

01:24:35   But anyway, these institutions have control over many of these employees' lives for

01:24:40   as long as they work at the company.

01:24:42   And yes, it is always obvious that they just get another job someplace else.

01:24:45   But the thing about institutional sexism or any other sort of institutional bias is it's

01:24:50   not always clear, and it very often is not the case, and it's very difficult to tell,

01:24:54   if I were to leave this tech job and go to a different tech job, will that company have

01:24:59   better attitudes towards, you know, whatever my thing is, whether it's minorities or women

01:25:04   or maybe, maybe not, like that's, that's a selling point of a company. But if you're

01:25:08   in this control, it's a it's not that easy to change jobs. And B, if you're within this

01:25:12   control structure, these, these policies and attitudes, and the things that will happen

01:25:17   to you seem like an injustice, because they are an injustice, because you view the authority

01:25:26   of the company as the arbiter of the rules of play within the company. It's not as if

01:25:33   people are getting murdered, right? So it's not, for the most part, it's usually not a

01:25:36   criminal type of thing. It is, here are the rules as set out, and if there are any violation

01:25:41   of the rules, or violation of what I think should be the norms, there is an authority

01:25:46   that I appeal to, whether it be my manager, my manager's manager, the HR department,

01:25:50   whatever it may be. For example, if you found an error in your payroll, like you know, you

01:25:54   got paid the wrong amount, you go to the payroll department, and in a functioning company,

01:25:59   the payroll department's job is to make sure that everybody gets paid the amount they're

01:26:02   supposed to be paid. And if there's an error and you brought it to the payroll department,

01:26:06   if the institution is functioning correctly, they would correct the error or tell you that

01:26:11   it's not an error because they did some weird thing with taxes that they would then explain

01:26:14   to you. That's the function of the payroll department. I don't think anybody would argue

01:26:18   with like a, you know, like it would seem like an injustice if you found you're missing 100 bucks

01:26:22   on your paycheck and you brought it to the payroll department of the institution that you are in

01:26:26   and they didn't correct that error or tried to tell you that you did your math wrong or said,

01:26:30   well, it's only the first time we made this mistake, so don't worry about it. Like that

01:26:34   would feel like an injustice, even though, you know, it's just the payroll department of the

01:26:39   company you work in. If you don't like it, get another job, right? That's the whole attitude

01:26:42   showed you here, but it is an injustice because that's what the thing is supposed to do.

01:26:46   So if the company says, "Oh, we are an inclusive employer and we love everybody and we certainly

01:26:52   don't condone sexual harassment," which any company will say if you ask them, "Hey, company

01:26:56   X, do you condone sexual harassment?" They'll all say they don't, right? So it's their stated

01:26:59   policy not to. So if this happens to you in a company, in any company that in this day

01:27:04   and age is going to say that, and you take this thing to the authority of the institution

01:27:09   that you are working within and you say, "Hey, HR department, we're supposed to be a company

01:27:14   in which people don't get sexually harassed. It's my first day at my job and my boss is

01:27:18   propositioning me for sex." Here you go. It's on a silver platter. Now, HR, do your job

01:27:24   as stated. And again, it's not as if like, "Oh, I'm expecting HR to protect me." They

01:27:30   should be protecting the company by having someone like this in it because it's against

01:27:34   their state of policy and it's bad for business, period. The only reason you wouldn't do that

01:27:39   is if there is institutional bias and sexism

01:27:43   from the highest levels to say,

01:27:45   actually the strategy we want to take here

01:27:47   is to sweep that under the carpet,

01:27:49   to shuffle the victim off someplace else,

01:27:52   to put the blame on them, to give them an option like,

01:27:54   well, you can either stay under this manager,

01:27:56   but he's gonna give you a bad performance review

01:27:57   because we're gonna totally tell him

01:27:58   that you reported him,

01:27:59   and if he does give you a bad performance review,

01:28:01   you really only have yourself to blame for report.

01:28:03   I'm not making this up, read the thing.

01:28:05   This is what's happening in the company.

01:28:07   You really only have yourself to blame

01:28:08   and because we did give you the option

01:28:10   to transfer someplace else.

01:28:11   And the employer's like,

01:28:12   "But this is the department I wanna be in,

01:28:14   "this is where my skillset lies,

01:28:15   "and if I transfer, I'll have to learn a new thing."

01:28:16   I'm like, "Well, we gave you a choice."

01:28:19   Or you could just quit your job.

01:28:20   They don't mention that, but it's always an option.

01:28:22   You'd always just quit your job.

01:28:23   But she had skills that were a perfect fit

01:28:26   for the job that she was in.

01:28:27   She enjoyed doing it technically.

01:28:29   She liked some of the people she was working with.

01:28:31   There's just this one niggling problem

01:28:33   about being sexually harassed at work.

01:28:35   So she ended up transferring to a different department,

01:28:36   which was painful and did well. It's such a terrible story of, and then she had problems

01:28:42   there as well and other issues and she would bring them to HR and they would do the same

01:28:45   thing and fighting about all the other people. This is institutional sexism where the institution

01:28:51   is working against her. She has a reasonable expectation according to the state of policies

01:28:54   of the company that the people whose job it is to be the referees for this area, just

01:28:59   like the payroll department is the referee for how much you get paid, are failing to

01:29:04   act. And that is like the definition of injustice, and when it's an institution, it's the definition

01:29:08   of institutional sexism. And you can expand that out to any institution you want, whether

01:29:12   it be your family unit at the smallest institution where maybe everyone in your family thinks

01:29:17   all the wives should stay at home with their kids, all the way up to the government with

01:29:20   policies that are biased in one direction or another against people who are minorities

01:29:26   or people who are women, which is the opposite of a minority. And so that's what's maddening

01:29:32   to—that's the reason the whole social justice movement and the pejorative SJW that's

01:29:40   used—the reason they have the word "justice" in them is because all of them derive from

01:29:44   a recognition that every large grouping or organizational structure has a behavior as

01:29:53   an overall organism that emerges from the attitudes of the people running it.

01:30:00   And despite what people may say, it's pretty easy to find out if you're in a situation

01:30:05   where the institution is working against you and where the supposed places you go to resolve

01:30:14   whatever issue you have, whether it's a discrepancy in your paycheck or someone violating what

01:30:18   you think is an HR policy, if those institutions fail to act or actively work against you,

01:30:25   that feels like and is an injustice.

01:30:27   And that's what people are fighting against.

01:30:30   And I think that the payroll analogy is the one that probably works because most people

01:30:34   think that's a no brainer.

01:30:36   Like they understand the role of the payroll department.

01:30:38   And if they don't get paid the money they were promised, that is an injustice.

01:30:41   But you apply the exact same thing to other things like, "Well, he's a really nice guy

01:30:46   and he's really important in the company.

01:30:49   And can't you just change to a different place?"

01:30:50   Because it just it boggles my mind that any modern company like these things would ever

01:30:56   happen.

01:30:57   but then you'll hear the same story from tons like talk to women that you know who have worked in large companies for any part of

01:31:04   their career

01:31:04   You'll hear these same stories everywhere and that's another clue to you that this is an institutional thing

01:31:08   It's not just uber that uber is a bad company over is the one bad apple. Everybody else is fine. It is everywhere

01:31:14   It is systemic. It is societal. It is cultural. It is institutional. That's that's the definition and

01:31:20   That's why the stories like this are depressing because no matter what uber does a is probably not gonna change uber

01:31:27   because if they haven't changed by now they probably never will. And B, it's not

01:31:32   going to solve the problem in all the other places. The only way you can fix it

01:31:35   systemically is with systemic solutions and cultural change and all the other

01:31:39   stuff and that takes a really long time and it's very difficult to do and that's

01:31:42   why stories like this are very depressing. And since this original

01:31:47   blog post was written and in just the last few hours as we record somebody's

01:31:51   tweeted, we'll put a link to it, that 118 people have resigned or given their

01:31:56   notice since yesterday, which I guess is Tuesday. It was in the last couple days is really what

01:32:01   it amounts to. And that was only in San Francisco. This is at Uber in San Francisco. Like that's

01:32:06   a lot of people, 120 people. And, you know, power to you, man. If you are willing to stand

01:32:15   up for this and say, "I cannot be a part of this anymore." Like, here again, like I like

01:32:21   to think of myself as reasonably woke. But if I mean, I don't know if I would have the

01:32:25   gumption to just walk away from my job that's putting food on my table. That's awesome.

01:32:31   And men or women, it doesn't matter, whoever these 118 people are, good for you. That's

01:32:36   tremendous that you have put your money where your mouth is. And yeah, I can't emphasize

01:32:41   enough. I see it from time to time at my work and I'm not even necessarily like, I don't

01:32:49   have my antennae up, if you will, to search for it. I just see it from time to time and

01:32:53   I try to do my best to correct it when it happens, but this stuff happens everywhere.

01:32:59   It's not unique to San Francisco, it's not unique to Uber, although Uber seems to be

01:33:02   excelling in this department.

01:33:04   It's everywhere, and it's up to everyone, but particularly those of us who are not oppressed,

01:33:13   like the three of us, to give credence to the stories of those who are, to pay attention

01:33:21   into the stories of those who are,

01:33:23   and to try to fix or speak for, or really even better,

01:33:27   give the microphone to, which is comical

01:33:30   since I'm talking into a mic right now and not doing this,

01:33:33   but anyway, give the microphone to someone who is oppressed

01:33:36   and who allow them to speak for themselves.

01:33:39   - The other thing I like about this post is,

01:33:41   I think it does a good job of explaining

01:33:44   why someone might stay in a job where this happens,

01:33:47   because it's always the reaction's like,

01:33:48   "Well, just quit.

01:33:49   "If you don't like it, just quit," right?

01:33:50   there are mitigating factors, one of which may be you really like the work you're doing

01:33:56   and it's technically interesting and you are growing your skills and maybe you even like

01:34:01   the people you work with, right?

01:34:03   It's very possible to be in a company whose institutions are failing you, but nevertheless

01:34:07   you enjoy your peers and employees and maybe you enjoy your direct manager but you know

01:34:13   that it only takes one bad person and then one non-functioning institution to fail to

01:34:21   do its job to protect the company from toxic employees like this to, you know, like, you

01:34:26   know, retention is part of the job of HR. When 100 people quit because of something

01:34:30   like this, that's HR not doing its job, right? But it's like, why did she stay in this job?

01:34:34   I think this article has a good description of why someone, why it's not just like, oh,

01:34:40   Someone you know

01:34:41   Said something you know lewd to me and therefore I got to quit the next day

01:34:45   And if you don't quit the next day, it's your own fault right that's a ridiculous thing like

01:34:48   People are more complicated than just they're not you know it's not just one thing right and so that's why this thing is like

01:34:55   Reflecting on a very strange year like it is very even-handed

01:35:00   And I think when you read it you can see

01:35:02   The excitement of working for a company with a lot with a lot of VC money doing interesting technical stuff with people that you enjoy

01:35:07   and expanding your skills and generally having a career, a thing that most people get to have.

01:35:12   And that is the tension. Do you want to have a career or is your entire career going to be

01:35:15   sending reports to HR every time someone does something bad to you? And it's like,

01:35:20   I shouldn't have to choose between those two things. Can't I have a career and not be sexually

01:35:25   harassed? Is that even an option on the table? And so it makes people have these ridiculous choices

01:35:32   like, "Well, it's not really that bad, is it? And I guess I'll just tolerate it and

01:35:37   I would just keep reporting it to HR, maybe it'll do something eventually." And it's

01:35:41   just, it's not a healthy situation, but like, the expectation that everything is

01:35:49   your fault if you don't immediately storm out and quit at the first time

01:35:53   someone does something you don't like, otherwise, like, as the HR department

01:35:57   told, "Well, it's really your own fault at that point. He's gonna give you a negative

01:36:00   performance review, but you can't really blame the guy, right? And I mean, like, that might

01:36:04   have been over a lot of people's lines. But it really depends on what state you are in

01:36:08   your career and how much you know of the world and, you know, what capacity you have to leave

01:36:13   you a job at that moment. And how excited you are to be able to work in this thing.

01:36:17   It's like, well, it's just that one bad person. And if I work in a different department, I

01:36:21   want to deal with them. Because there's always people at work you don't know how to deal

01:36:23   with. And if you've lived your entire life as a woman in virtually any culture in the

01:36:26   entire history of the universe, you are, sadly, very used to dealing with people crapping

01:36:32   on you and treating you badly, and so have probably internalized some notion that this

01:36:37   is a thing that you have to tolerate to get ahead in the world, and sadly you're also

01:36:41   probably kind of right about it.

01:36:43   So that's, like, I think will give people—reading this, I think will give people a better idea

01:36:50   of what it might be like to be in this situation and why you might not do all the things that

01:36:55   I'm assuming people down in the comments are screaming that this person was supposed to do,

01:36:58   which is, you know, run out with your hair on fire at the first sign of anything going wrong,

01:37:03   which honestly might have actually been the better choice in the case of Uber, but

01:37:08   is not a realistic thing to demand of people. Otherwise they somehow lose their right to

01:37:14   justice and somehow lose their expectation of being in a functioning institution that

01:37:18   doesn't hate them. Yeah, it's just ridiculous. And again, I know I said it before, but truly,

01:37:24   it is worth your time to read this entire post. It is extremely well thought out and extremely mature,

01:37:30   and it just spells out the facts the way Susan saw them, and I believe every word of it.

01:37:35   I mean, even if, even hypothetically, if this was, you know, laced with BS, which again, I truly do

01:37:44   not believe, this to me sounds like something that absolutely could have happened. And maybe if it

01:37:50   If it didn't happen, it may not have been an Uber,

01:37:52   but this is stuff that happens every day,

01:37:54   and I don't see it.

01:37:56   I'm trying to, in part, by talking to the three of you

01:38:00   and anyone else that's listening, or two of you,

01:38:02   God, I can count, it's late, wee!

01:38:04   I'm trying to open my eyes wider to these sorts of things

01:38:10   and be more aware of them and try to figure out

01:38:13   how I can react appropriately in these situations.

01:38:16   But golly, this is just bananas.

01:38:20   And I am.

01:38:21   - There's also an opportunity for people at their jobs to,

01:38:26   I mean, I know at my job it has sparked this discussion

01:38:29   that I think, you know, whatever venue you have

01:38:31   to have this discussion.

01:38:33   If you work for a company, like people might be talking

01:38:35   about the story, especially if you're in the tech industry,

01:38:37   it's time to ask around.

01:38:40   Hey, has, I mean, good HR department should be doing this.

01:38:43   Hey, does anyone in our company feel like they can't go

01:38:47   to HR or has gone to HR and has felt like HR has failed them in some way.

01:38:53   Things like this happen all the time.

01:38:54   I mean, you know, people are people and there's always communication gaps, but it's like a

01:38:58   teachable moment type thing where what a good company will do with a good HR department

01:39:02   is use this to say, "If this is happening here, we don't want it to, and let us know,

01:39:10   and employees should talk amongst themselves."

01:39:13   Like, sometimes people don't talk about, you know, like, they'll report some of the HR,

01:39:16   maybe you don't tell your peers that you did that,

01:39:19   'cause you don't want to, 'cause you fear retribution,

01:39:21   which is itself a very bad sign right off the bat.

01:39:23   But sometimes it takes something like this,

01:39:26   like it's the same reason they didn't,

01:39:27   the women in this company didn't get together immediately,

01:39:30   they had to eventually figure out,

01:39:31   wait, but I reported that same guy,

01:39:33   and they told me it was the first time.

01:39:34   These conversations need to happen,

01:39:36   and a healthy company should have happened.

01:39:37   And as this story went around, people at my job,

01:39:42   people started talking about it,

01:39:43   and talking about their experiences with HR at our company

01:39:48   and how it compares to this story.

01:39:50   And if you don't hear about these stories

01:39:53   and you don't think it's happening in your company,

01:39:55   maybe it's totally not, but maybe it is

01:39:57   and you're just not hearing about it

01:39:58   because it hasn't happened to you

01:39:59   and the people who has happened to you

01:40:00   haven't felt like they could tell you for,

01:40:03   and the worse it is probably,

01:40:05   the more hesitant people will be to share these stories

01:40:08   because if it really is bad

01:40:09   and you really are punished for reporting it

01:40:11   and HR justifies retaliation against you based on it and everything, you're not going to tell

01:40:17   your co-workers that it's happening. You're going to keep your mouth shut and you're not going to

01:40:20   report another one because you need this job. That's the case where everyone clams up. Whereas

01:40:25   if there really is an expectation and a functioning HR department and someone has a bad

01:40:28   interaction and they should feel free to tell everyone, all their co-workers and their boss

01:40:34   about it because they'd have an expectation like this is not functioning correctly. And

01:40:37   I was told something that does not seem to comport with the supposed policies of this

01:40:42   company.

01:40:44   And that's the only way these things get worked out, because if people are just quiet and

01:40:47   go about their business and try not to rock the boat, that's not a good culture for anything,

01:40:51   period, in a company.

01:40:53   But certainly not a good culture for making sure you have a company that is able to retain

01:41:00   employees, good employees, because this person seems like a good employee.

01:41:04   She wrote an O'Reilly book on a topic and speaks at conferences.

01:41:07   It's not like she's just this random cog in the machine, right?

01:41:09   "Oh, just throw her away.

01:41:10   We don't need to have that.

01:41:11   It's more important to protect the high-performing sexual harasser."

01:41:15   It's ridiculous.

01:41:16   But anyway, a good HR department will try to make a company that is attractive to employees.

01:41:21   People want to work there, and then once they do work there, they want to stay there.

01:41:24   That is the – again, it is not a role that is in service of the employee, but it's

01:41:28   a virtuous cycle if the HR department realizes that by making it a better company to work

01:41:35   at, they will be protecting the company and they will be making the company more successful,

01:41:39   even if their main goal is to, main loyalty is to the company and not to the employee.

01:41:45   Was it Thursday of last week, the day after we recorded, that we got a very weird announcement

01:41:52   out of Apple? Was it Thursday or was it, it was sometime after we recorded and not too

01:41:56   long after we recorded.

01:41:57   It's 10 minutes after we recorded.

01:41:58   Yeah, right. That's what it felt like for sure. I think Apple's trolling us because

01:42:03   clearly they care about our recording schedule. WWDC 2017 has been announced. It is a week

01:42:09   before I thought it would be. It is the 5th through 9th of June. I had guessed and I was

01:42:16   pretty confident it would be the following week. I am wrong. I had also guessed it would

01:42:19   be in San Francisco and that's not right either. So it's going to San Jose, which apparently

01:42:25   is the most boring big city in all of America from what I'm told. So that's a thing.

01:42:33   who say that have never been to any other cities in America.

01:42:35   - Yeah, that's true.

01:42:36   And I mean, I've never been to San Jose.

01:42:39   I've heard it's nice,

01:42:41   but I don't really know anything about it.

01:42:44   But one way or another, they have announced WWDC,

01:42:46   they've announced the dates.

01:42:48   This is way sooner than they've done it in many years.

01:42:51   Usually it's like April or even May

01:42:53   when they announce that,

01:42:54   oh, in a couple of days you can buy tickets, so get ready.

01:42:58   And this is convenient if you're somebody like us

01:43:01   that's probably going to go regardless of whether or not you have a ticket. It's also

01:43:05   convenient if you're someone that doesn't live in the United States and needs to work

01:43:10   out the entry procedure. And I'm just going to dance around this whole topic. It's nice

01:43:17   to know way in advance. And I think part of, if not most of the reason that it was announced

01:43:21   this far out is because it's not in San Francisco and that changes things. And nobody really

01:43:26   knows how it changes things, although I bet you weren't going to talk about it for a while.

01:43:31   But it certainly changes things.

01:43:34   And I'm curious to see how this turns out.

01:43:38   Because it certainly gave me pause for a minute.

01:43:40   Because everything I've understood about San Jose is that it is a really sleepy town after

01:43:45   all the local businesses go to sleep, if you will, after business hours.

01:43:50   And a lot of the reason that I go to WWDC each year is so I can hang out with you guys

01:43:55   and all my other friends and mutual friends

01:43:59   and socialize and have fun

01:44:01   and continue to build existing relationships

01:44:05   and build new relationships.

01:44:06   And I don't know how conducive San Jose is to that.

01:44:11   For all I know, it could be great.

01:44:12   I mean, I really honestly don't know,

01:44:14   but it's certainly different.

01:44:16   And how are we gonna go to the house of prime rib

01:44:19   if it's an hour away?

01:44:20   Like, that's not gonna work.

01:44:21   What do you do?

01:44:22   I mean, this is terrible.

01:44:24   So, I don't know.

01:44:26   Jon, what do you think about all this?

01:44:28   - Well, I don't like traveling and I don't like change,

01:44:30   and I don't like change to travel.

01:44:32   (laughing)

01:44:33   So Apple must have detected that I had gotten used to

01:44:37   the flight to San Francisco and the arrangements there

01:44:41   and was familiar with enough of the city

01:44:43   to start to feel comfortable, you know?

01:44:46   - Now they've ruined everything.

01:44:47   - And so they said, "We need to change things up."

01:44:49   As many people pointed out,

01:44:52   the obvious reason they would change this

01:44:53   is because it's marketing for Apple because it's closer to their headquarters.

01:44:57   It's got to be cheaper than doing anything in San Francisco.

01:45:00   In theory it was supposed to be cheaper for attendees.

01:45:03   In practice I don't know if that will be the case because obviously all the traditional

01:45:10   WWDC attendees plus the people who go without a ticket or some fraction of them anyway are

01:45:15   going to drive up prices but I did get hotel reservations, provisional hotel reservations

01:45:22   It's for less money than I could have gotten them in San Francisco for the same week.

01:45:26   Not much less, but a little bit less, and certainly a nicer location.

01:45:28   Mine's a thousand dollars less.

01:45:30   Yeah, same here, but I have not independently confirmed this, but I had people that I saw

01:45:36   on Twitter saying that within a couple hours of this announcement, all those prices went

01:45:40   up to effectively equivalent to San Francisco prices.

01:45:44   So, last couple of years, it has been, and I'm sure we've talked about this on the show,

01:45:49   But it has been for a middle of the road hotel for the area.

01:45:53   And admittedly, it's not the greatest area for like sightseeing.

01:45:56   And there's a bunch of problems with the area in which WWDC used to happen in San Francisco.

01:46:00   But the point of the matter is, for a unremarkable hotel, but not slummy, it was like $400 a

01:46:07   night.

01:46:08   I think I spent like $2,500 or $3,000 for a week, or well, five nights in San Francisco.

01:46:14   And somebody said to me at some point, I wish I could remember who it was, but somebody

01:46:18   somebody pointed out, last couple of years in San Francisco,

01:46:21   you were basically buying an Apple Watch

01:46:23   every single night you were there,

01:46:26   and then throwing it away.

01:46:27   That's how expensive the hotels were.

01:46:28   Was it you, Jon?

01:46:29   - Yeah, it was the last year, it was W

01:46:35   - That's barbaric.

01:46:36   San Francisco, or at least that part of San Francisco,

01:46:37   is not a nice enough city to justify that kind of price.

01:46:40   It's just not, I'm sorry.

01:46:41   And so here it is for a fleeting moment,

01:46:44   San Jose seemed like it would be a whole lot better,

01:46:47   from what I understand, all of the excess inventory

01:46:50   that was low priced has been snapped up.

01:46:52   Now that very well could be because Apple has also bought

01:46:55   a bunch of hotel rooms for attendees,

01:46:56   which they've done in years past.

01:46:59   - That is very, very likely.

01:47:00   Apple almost certainly has blocked out

01:47:02   discounted rooms for attendees,

01:47:04   so that basically if you plan to try to get a ticket,

01:47:08   don't book a non-refundable hotel room yet.

01:47:10   - Right, exactly.

01:47:11   - Yeah, the strategy, we've been doing this strategy

01:47:13   at San Francisco for a few years.

01:47:14   Always as soon as you find out the dates

01:47:15   you book a refundable ticket and then what I would do is wait to see that if I do get

01:47:20   a ticket, which I have in years past, look at the rates that Apple offers for like, "Hey,

01:47:25   we reserved a block of room for you."

01:47:26   Some years, the Apple reserved room rate is cheaper than the one I provisionally booked.

01:47:31   Sometimes it's actually more expensive.

01:47:33   So it really depends on how quick people are on the draw and how quickly the hotels figure

01:47:37   out what's going on.

01:47:38   But in this case, by the time you're listening to this, if you haven't already booked something,

01:47:43   probably Apple's reserve block of room rate is going to be better than anything you get

01:47:47   right now.

01:47:48   And there are, it seems like there are more hotels at formerly reasonable prices closer

01:47:54   to whatever the convention center is in San Jose because Moscone has some super expensive

01:47:59   hotels fairly close to it and some cheaper ones like 15 minute walk away and then it

01:48:04   goes down from there whereas the San Jose one right around it within like the same block

01:48:08   there's a couple of big hotels which don't seem as nice and we're going for

01:48:11   You know a hundred and something a night if you were really quick on the draw of course now

01:48:16   They're off to four or five hundred, but you know what yeah mine is like my guy

01:48:19   I got mine for like 189 or something

01:48:21   I mean I haven't paid a rate that low in San Francisco in a few years

01:48:24   Yeah, I haven't seen anything with the one in front of it in many years

01:48:28   My goodness so true

01:48:32   so yeah, so

01:48:34   On the one side, so I guess at first that seems like an improvement because it seems like it's more accessible financially

01:48:42   until you have to fly there because there seem to be

01:48:45   Considerably fewer options to get into San Jose than there are San Francisco, which makes sense

01:48:50   San Francisco is a much bigger Airport from everything I've gathered

01:48:52   I am more than a little bitter that no matter where I fly out of I'm going to have to change planes in the past

01:48:59   I've driven two hours northbound to Dulles, everyone's favorite airport, and gotten a direct flight on Virgin America, which is

01:49:06   non-sarcastically my favorite airline in the States. And I

01:49:10   typically underscore and I have flown on the same flights out and back

01:49:14   and it's been wonderful. And now I'm going to have to change planes like an animal,

01:49:20   which I'm perfectly capable of doing but I don't care for doing.

01:49:24   And that's a bummer.

01:49:26   Alternatively, we could fly to San Francisco and take an hour long drive or Caltrain or

01:49:32   something along those lines, which is a bummer.

01:49:35   So getting there is a little bit tougher and probably more expensive, which stinks.

01:49:42   But in the grand scheme of things, I think this has a lot of potential upside.

01:49:49   It does make a lot of things different and at first glance potentially worse, but I think

01:49:54   it could make a lot of things better.

01:49:57   Also announced today, which we're not going to talk about very much,

01:50:01   the Apple Campus 2 has been officially named Apple Park,

01:50:04   and it will start to receive employees that will be moving in in April,

01:50:11   and WWDC is in June.

01:50:13   So it is certainly possible that there will be one or more WWDC events at Apple Park,

01:50:22   which would be kind of neat, I guess.

01:50:26   We'll see what happens.

01:50:27   There's been a lot of theorizing and scheming

01:50:31   about where things like the beer bash will happen

01:50:33   and where will the keynote happen.

01:50:36   And we know the name of the conference center or event

01:50:39   center, whatever it is that WWDC is happening.

01:50:42   I've already forgotten what it is.

01:50:43   It doesn't really matter.

01:50:45   But there's a lot of questions about this.

01:50:48   And additionally, somewhere on the website--

01:50:50   or maybe it was in the announcement--

01:50:51   They made passing reference to how Apple's working with San Jose to kind of have stuff

01:50:57   to do after hours.

01:50:59   What does that mean?

01:51:00   Does that mean that they work with people like Layers and Alt-Conf to get something

01:51:06   going on, but that's not really after hours, that's during the show, so is it that they're

01:51:10   working with the relay folks to get something going?

01:51:12   Probably not, but you never know.

01:51:14   There's a million questions here, very few answers.

01:51:17   at least we know when it is and at least we know where it is and we'd know that

01:51:21   before what feels like 10 seconds in advance which is good so I'm tentatively

01:51:26   optimistic but we'll see how it will see how it works out I'm gonna miss the

01:51:30   convention center like I don't even know what the same as a one is like but the

01:51:33   Moscone was cool-looking right yeah I like that I like that space I mean

01:51:37   obviously the rooms themselves are like you know boring partitions that they

01:51:40   move around and stuff but I think Apple always did a good job of making it feel

01:51:43   So the familiarity will be a little bit weird.

01:51:47   The potential upsides of San Jose is that nerds will be able to more thoroughly dominate

01:51:51   the place because in San Francisco, yeah, there's a lot of nerds and when you're around

01:51:55   Moscone you see a lot of little black W2C jackets, but San Francisco is a big busy city

01:51:59   full of people going about their business and as you move outward, nerds don't dominate

01:52:04   the city like the people who live in the city and work there.

01:52:07   I mean it's other nerds, the people going to work at Twitter and stuff, right?

01:52:09   But it's a different set of nerds.

01:52:12   In San Jose, because the population is lower and, you know, it's just less of a big city

01:52:19   than San Francisco, I would imagine that we will dominate more.

01:52:24   I'm worried a little bit about facilities, as people have pointed out, I'm not so much

01:52:28   interested in bars, but even just as simple as like, "Hey, where do you want to go for

01:52:31   dinner tonight?"

01:52:32   If it's any remotely good restaurants, they may be overwhelmed by the additional volume

01:52:36   of people, but then again, it is a convention center, so maybe they're used to it, I don't

01:52:38   know.

01:52:39   hard to gauge that but again San Francisco has a much larger capacity to absorb people's

01:52:45   activities just because they're used to, you know, it's a big city. There's many more options,

01:52:49   more places to go, places that are more used to large volumes of people on an ongoing basis

01:52:53   whereas this surge for WWDC could be large as far as San Jose is concerned or it could

01:53:00   not be because I think maybe their convention center regularly houses conventions that are

01:53:05   or seven times the size of WWDC, in which case, you know, not a big deal.

01:53:08   And also, maybe people who previously went to San Francisco for WWDC without a ticket

01:53:15   to just, you know, enjoy the company will think twice of it, either because there's

01:53:19   not a direct flight or because they think there won't be stuff to do.

01:53:22   You know, there won't be as much stuff to do or whatever.

01:53:26   I think the idea of people going into San Francisco from San Jose is crazy because that's

01:53:29   a ridiculous trip and it's long distance even without traffic.

01:53:32   and you're not gonna wanna make that trip back

01:53:34   when your meal ends at 2 a.m. or whatever.

01:53:38   So, I mean, well, certainly I would never do that,

01:53:40   but I think most people wouldn't do that.

01:53:42   - Can you imagine getting back in an Uber

01:53:45   to go ride for an hour at two in the morning

01:53:48   to go back to the park 55?

01:53:50   - No, no, no. (laughing)

01:53:53   Hard pass, no thank you.

01:53:55   - Yeah, and maybe the weather will be nicer.

01:53:57   Maybe it won't be freezing cold.

01:53:59   - My understanding is that's accurate,

01:54:01   that it will be considerably warmer.

01:54:03   - Yeah, it seems that San Jose is actually in California.

01:54:05   - Right. (laughs)

01:54:07   And I, for me, because I hate flying and hate traveling,

01:54:13   I'm gonna take a direct flight to SFO.

01:54:16   I can't do the change.

01:54:18   Like one six-hour flight, I can't do two four-hour flights

01:54:20   with an hour in between or whatever the hell it would be

01:54:22   if I went through Texas or whatever my options are.

01:54:24   - I'm curious, how are you gonna get down

01:54:26   to there from there?

01:54:27   How does that work?

01:54:28   - I'll get someone to drive me.

01:54:30   It'll be fine.

01:54:31   - Yeah, I've debated doing the same thing,

01:54:34   especially inbound where the schedule

01:54:37   is a little less intense,

01:54:38   and I haven't booked plane travel yet.

01:54:41   - Yeah, neither have I.

01:54:42   - But I think what I'll likely do

01:54:45   is just fly into San Jose and deal with the fact

01:54:49   that I have to put on my big boy pants

01:54:51   and change planes at some point.

01:54:53   - I'll say, when we're hearing from you,

01:54:55   because your connection got canceled or I missed,

01:54:57   how excited you are to miss registration.

01:55:00   - No, true, I agree.

01:55:01   No, and that's why, sure, I am being a little bit

01:55:05   of a baby saying, "I don't wanna change planes,"

01:55:06   but truly, that's why I drive two hours,

01:55:10   because driving two hours to a larger airport

01:55:13   is something I can control.

01:55:14   When I get stranded in Dallas or Charlotte

01:55:18   or Chicago or something like that, I'm screwed.

01:55:21   There's nothing I can do about that at that point.

01:55:22   So I'm with you, Jon, I completely understand.

01:55:25   - Yeah, I mean, that's one of the many reasons

01:55:27   to try to go direct.

01:55:28   And then, for me personally, there's a potential that I won't be able to go at all because

01:55:32   my wife might have work travel during that time and then I wouldn't have anybody to watch

01:55:36   the kids, so potentially I'm not going at all.

01:55:38   And of course, always the option of me not getting a ticket enough if I don't get one.

01:55:42   As always, I will have to reconsider.

01:55:45   Because I'm not really going there for super-duper nightlife and drinking, I'm going to sit in

01:55:50   boring nerd sessions and learn things.

01:55:52   And it's my plan.

01:55:53   But you're the life of the party.

01:55:54   Yeah, right, I'm sure I'll be terribly missed.

01:55:56   You will!

01:55:57   You would be, certainly by the two of us and nobody else.

01:55:59   Marco would be so excited to be able to figure out a new recording rig where he's got two

01:56:02   people live, one person remote.

01:56:04   Oh, God, please don't make me do that.

01:56:06   That would be awful.

01:56:07   Anyway, I will be entering the lottery anyway, and hopefully I'll be able to either work

01:56:13   out something with childcare or my wife's work travel will change because it's not set

01:56:18   in stone at this point.

01:56:19   And I totally, I love the fact that, in case you already mentioned, that we found out so

01:56:22   much earlier.

01:56:23   Like, even before, like, we can't even put our, you know, name into the hat for the lottery

01:56:29   until the end of March.

01:56:31   So they gave us so much notice, which is great.

01:56:33   It's like so much more relaxing.

01:56:35   Although the mad rush is still there, because as soon as everyone—I felt like I found

01:56:39   out like an hour after everybody else did, despite the fact that through many venues

01:56:43   if I had just opened my eyes I would have known much sooner.

01:56:46   And then I'm scrambling to try to get a number with a one in front of it as my hotel room

01:56:50   rate, which I think I barely did.

01:56:53   But I mean, all in all, I'm tentatively excited, like I said.

01:56:56   I think this could be a bunch of awesome changes.

01:57:01   Now it certainly could be garbage,

01:57:03   and it could work out really poorly,

01:57:04   and there'll be nowhere to go after hours, nothing to do.

01:57:07   But I'm excited.

01:57:09   I think it could be a lot of fun,

01:57:10   and I'm really looking forward to seeing

01:57:12   how it all turns out.

01:57:13   - So, just a little more on the venue stuff.

01:57:16   Do we all agree that the keynote will not be

01:57:19   in the Steve Jobs Theater in Apple Park?

01:57:22   - It's too small. - It's not big enough.

01:57:23   - Yeah, it's not even close.

01:57:25   - Yeah, I always wondered about that theater,

01:57:26   why they made it, I mean, I guess for press events,

01:57:28   1,000 is probably plenty, but Apple's had

01:57:31   a lot of press events in bigger venues,

01:57:32   like even the watch event held like 5,000 or something,

01:57:35   so I kinda wonder why they made it so small.

01:57:38   - Well, I mean, I'm sure the rationale was basically like,

01:57:41   you know, we can have some events on campus, which we do,

01:57:44   and like the smaller events that aren't like 5,000 people

01:57:47   in a room, they just have on their campus,

01:57:48   and the rationale was probably like,

01:57:51   To make it meaningfully bigger,

01:57:52   it's like do we wanna put a 5,000 person theater

01:57:55   in our campus?

01:57:56   And that's a lot of people to shove into one room.

01:57:58   It's a really big room.

01:57:59   It's like, that's probably a massive undertaking

01:58:03   for relatively little benefit.

01:58:05   Like they can just go book a place in San Francisco for that

01:58:08   or book the San Jose Conference Center for that

01:58:10   and it's probably fine.

01:58:11   - Yeah, that whole Steve Jobs theater

01:58:13   is just a facade for the 800 levels of sub-basements

01:58:16   where they do the car development, right?

01:58:17   (laughing)

01:58:18   - Something like that.

01:58:19   underground test track facility that's a complete recreation of the Nürburgring.

01:58:24   - Yeah, that's it. - Where there's artificial sunlight over the whole thing.

01:58:27   - I would not assume that there's gonna be any involvement between Apple's new

01:58:34   campus and WBC. I don't think there's gonna be anything there.

01:58:37   They don't really need to and it would be a pretty big ordeal. Like,

01:58:41   5,000 people is a lot. To do anything with 5,000 people, that is a

01:58:47   a large logistical challenge.

01:58:49   And when the people can just walk to different buildings

01:58:52   that are all within the same downtown area,

01:58:53   that's way easier.

01:58:55   - Yeah, we'll see what happens.

01:58:56   Well, good luck you two getting tickets.

01:58:58   - I'm not trying for a ticket.

01:58:59   - Oh, you're not?

01:59:00   - No, I decided last year, I'm always so double

01:59:04   and triple booked for things I want to do during that week,

01:59:07   during every time of every day.

01:59:09   - Humblebrack.

01:59:10   - That there is just, a ticket on me at this point,

01:59:15   I would feel better with somebody else getting it.

01:59:18   I feel like it's wasted on me now

01:59:20   because there's so much else I want to do

01:59:22   during those daytime slots,

01:59:24   and last year I didn't go to that many sessions,

01:59:26   and I felt really bad about that.

01:59:28   So this year I'm just gonna be like,

01:59:29   you know, I'm just gonna let someone else

01:59:31   get my ticket this time,

01:59:32   'cause I think I don't need it anymore.

01:59:35   - Yeah, I'm giving you a hard time,

01:59:36   but I actually felt very similarly.

01:59:38   Now, I did have layers that I went to

01:59:41   almost the entirety of last year.

01:59:43   And quick aside, if you, for some reason, want to be in

01:59:47   that area and you don't get a ticket or perhaps you want

01:59:51   something a little less developer-centric, Layers is

01:59:55   a great conference.

01:59:56   And I think I could have sworn I saw that they were at least

02:00:00   contemplating going to San Jose, but I might be lying

02:00:03   about that, so double check me.

02:00:04   But yeah, if Layers is a thing again, be it in San Francisco

02:00:08   or San Jose, it is definitely worth checking out.

02:00:11   But anyways, last year, I had a lot more availability because I didn't have a conference ticket

02:00:17   to WWDC.

02:00:18   I had one to Layers, and I still felt a bit overwhelmed and triple booked.

02:00:22   And I'm giving you a hard time about humble bragging about how busy you were, but truth

02:00:25   be told, I totally understand, and I am in the exact same boat.

02:00:28   I will be trying for a ticket for sure, because I think I still have a lot to get from it

02:00:35   in a way that I don't know that you necessarily do, Marco.

02:00:38   I agree with what you just said.

02:00:41   We'll see what happens. John obviously will be putting his hat in the ring and we'll see how it goes

02:00:45   But but I'm looking forward to it one way or the other. Yeah, I forgot about layers

02:00:48   That's an option like I would that would be an excuse for me to go

02:00:52   It's like well, I didn't get a ticket but oh, well, I'll buy a ticket to layers instead

02:00:55   Yeah, and you know, I I feel guilty because I feel the same way but truth be told layers really is a great conference

02:01:03   Like I it shouldn't I shouldn't be positioning it as an also ran because it really is really really good

02:01:09   Now full disclosure, one of the women that runs Layers,

02:01:14   Jessie Char, she also does our ad sales,

02:01:16   and so we're inclined to like her anyway.

02:01:19   But the truth of the matter is she's awesome.

02:01:21   - It went the other direction.

02:01:23   She does our ad sales because we liked her so much.

02:01:26   - That's true, actually, yeah.

02:01:28   And Layers is just, it's such an unbelievably good

02:01:30   conference, and a very diverse conference

02:01:32   in a way that WWDC is not, which is super refreshing,

02:01:37   and really, really awesome.

02:01:39   - Yeah, that's actually, that is one of the biggest things

02:01:42   that I want to do instead of going to WWDC this year.

02:01:46   Like I really want, I hope Layers happens.

02:01:49   If it does happen, I'm there, no question.

02:01:51   - Yeah, I mean it shouldn't be positioned as an also ran.

02:01:54   It is a peer to WWDC.

02:01:57   It is truly a tremendous show.

02:01:59   So anyway, so yeah, so we'll see what happens,

02:02:01   but I'm looking forward to it one way or another,

02:02:03   and I really, really hope that all three of us

02:02:06   make it out there.

02:02:07   So I will put in a good word with Tina

02:02:09   to temporarily quit her job or something if needed.

02:02:12   Small price to pay, am I right?

02:02:15   (laughing)

02:02:16   - All right, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

02:02:19   Hover, Warby Parker, and Indochino,

02:02:21   and we will see you next week.

02:02:23   (upbeat music)

02:02:25   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

02:02:28   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

02:02:30   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

02:02:32   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:02:33   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

02:02:35   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:02:36   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

02:02:38   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, cause it was accidental

02:02:42   It was accidental

02:02:46   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:02:51   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

02:02:56   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:03:00   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:03:05   ♪ Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

02:03:10   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A ♪

02:03:12   ♪ It's accidental, accidental ♪

02:03:16   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

02:03:18   ♪ Accidental, accidental ♪

02:03:20   ♪ Tech broadcast ♪

02:03:22   ♪ So long ♪

02:03:25   - I have had, I've been gaming again on the Apple TV

02:03:29   with Adam, my son, and a while back,

02:03:33   like right after I finished playing through all the emulator stuff with prominence on

02:03:38   the Apple TV, I was playing them all with the SteelSeries, is it? The Nimbus controller.

02:03:46   It was, you know, whatever the Nimbus is, I think it's SteelSeries. And it's, you know,

02:03:50   one of the many like $50 Apple TV game pad controller things. And it's fine. It's not

02:03:57   great but it's fine. And right after I finished playing all of these old platformers with

02:04:04   that controller, somebody recommended that I check out the HoriPad Ultimate. This is

02:04:09   a company, I was not familiar with it but apparently they're well respected, the Hori

02:04:13   company I guess, they're well respected for making game pads. And there's a model called

02:04:19   the HoriPad Ultimate that is, as far as I can tell, only sold at Apple stores and through

02:04:25   Apple's online site. And I've been playing with that the last couple days and night and

02:04:33   day better. It is so good. It is so much better than the Nimbus for the actual D-pad and playing

02:04:41   old games with the D-pad. The analog sticks and everything I couldn't care less about

02:04:44   because I'm not that picky about analog sticks. But the D-pad and the buttons and the responsiveness

02:04:50   of it is just so much better than the Nimbus and it's more practical, like it's easier

02:04:56   to turn on and off and everything and there's the actual power switch on it and stuff like

02:05:00   that. It also charges via lightning. So it's very nice, very convenient, highly recommended

02:05:05   the HoriPad Ultimate Apple TV game controller. Apparently it also works with like iPads and

02:05:09   iPhones but I have not yet tried it with those.

02:05:13   So what have you been playing that isn't emulated or is that basically it?

02:05:17   there's kind of an asterisk on that. So I have not actually loaded up Providence yet

02:05:21   because at some point in the last few months since I last touched it, all of my games got

02:05:26   deleted out of it. Which is probably some kind of, you know, Apple TV storage purge

02:05:31   thing. And so I probably have to reload them all on but I will have lost all my progress

02:05:35   and I'm not looking forward to that. But I instead have been playing the official Sega

02:05:42   authorized ports to the Apple TV of the Sonic the Hedgehog series, Sonic 1, 2, and CD. They

02:05:49   were done, oh god I forgot the guy's name already, they were done by a really good person

02:05:54   and they actually have like remastered the Sonic games, the original, these three Genesis

02:05:58   Sonic games, to be natively widescreen, to have built in like saves, Christian Whitehead

02:06:05   is the guy, thank you Chloe D. Guzman in the chat, Christian Whitehead is the person or

02:06:10   company I guess, I think it's a person who ported the game. And it's a very, these are

02:06:15   very well done ports. Actually like nice widescreen versions of these old Sonic games. And they

02:06:23   actually don't break in widescreen, like things aren't worse or weird in some way. There's

02:06:26   actually a couple of, they had to make a couple of tweaks to the games to make it not break

02:06:32   like in Sonic 1 the boss of Spring Yard Zone kind of depends on the field of the game being

02:06:38   a certain width and so in this remaster that's widescreen they just put up these two big

02:06:44   walls on like the two sides to force it back into the right width. Stuff like that. So

02:06:51   anyway really good ports of all three of these games of Sonic 1, Sonic 2 and Sonic CD. They're

02:06:56   awesome we've been having a lot of fun playing them. And apparently he has been hired to

02:07:00   do something called Sonic Mania which is like basically a new Sonic game in the style of

02:07:07   the old ones. Because there have been a million garbage-y Sonic games since the Genesis, like

02:07:10   all the stuff they've done afterwards, and it has largely gone nowhere, really, and has

02:07:15   not been that memorable. But there's a new one now being made, I don't know when it's

02:07:21   coming out, but... Ooh, it's for the Nintendo Switch. I should mention I'm getting a Nintendo

02:07:25   Switch. What? Why? I don't know, I feel like it's gonna be fun. How are you getting a Nintendo

02:07:31   Switch? Because I want to get one, and I missed the one hour pre-order window. So did I, because

02:07:37   but a friend of the show who I would name,

02:07:40   but I'm not going to in case he would get

02:07:43   like bombarded with requests,

02:07:45   a friend of the show ordered an extra,

02:07:47   had basically had an extra pre-order and offered it,

02:07:49   and I grabbed it.

02:07:52   I'm going to have to figure out what games to get for it,

02:07:54   but I think it's gonna be fun.

02:07:56   - (sighs) I don't know.

02:07:58   I can't get my fancy version of the Zelda game either.

02:08:00   I missed the pre-order window on that.

02:08:01   I have notifications on Amazon for all these things,

02:08:03   like email me when they're available.

02:08:04   - How did you miss that?

02:08:05   I don't know, I was like working and I missed the day when you could put in the pre-orders.

02:08:09   I missed it in like an hour.

02:08:10   And by the time I went there, it was like, "Oh, too late.

02:08:13   I already sold out."

02:08:14   So I have no – I'm sure I'll get the console.

02:08:17   I have no problem with that.

02:08:18   I just would like the fancy version of the Zelda game because that's what I want.

02:08:21   I want the console and I want the Zelda game and the pro controller.

02:08:24   And that's what I'm going to do with it.

02:08:25   And I don't really care about any other games for it for a while.

02:08:28   I actually – I'm hoping – do we still know nothing about the virtual console for

02:08:34   it? I'm sure we know something, I haven't been keeping up with it, but. Okay, well anyway,

02:08:38   I'm hoping the Virtual Console becomes like, you know, what it is, what it has to be for,

02:08:43   like a pretty good, pretty good thing, pretty good resource, because I would love to, to

02:08:49   play like some of, basically some of like the Mario and Mario Kart games that I have

02:08:52   missed in the last 20 years. Just get Mario Kart 8, the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, it has so

02:08:57   many freaking tracks from past games. Oh yeah, I ordered that. And they're adding 16 more

02:09:00   I think on top of that, so. I'm going to order that, it's in my, it's in my Amazon cart

02:09:04   to pre-order that. But yeah, so basically that's obvious, but like is there anything

02:09:09   else? It seems like Mario games themselves are kind of absent for a while until the big

02:09:15   one comes out like in a year or something, right? Something like that?

02:09:18   -They're spacing it out, I think by like the end of this year. Like I think a lot of the

02:09:21   games are basically done and they're just spacing it out to give like every two months

02:09:24   there'll be a major new game. -Yeah, so far my launch list of things I

02:09:28   I want at launch are basically like Bomberman,

02:09:31   Puyo Tetris, and Mario Kart,

02:09:34   which isn't actually at launch,

02:09:36   but is close to launch, I guess.

02:09:38   But I don't really know what else to get.

02:09:39   I'm not really that into Zelda,

02:09:41   so I probably won't get that unless Tiff wants to play,

02:09:43   which she might, but I don't know what else to get.

02:09:45   So you're gonna have to--

02:09:46   - I don't know what this new Zelda is gonna be like.

02:09:48   It might be within Tiff's window of tolerance,

02:09:50   but I recall her not being a big fan of the 3D Zeldas.

02:09:53   - Yeah, she was a fan of some of,

02:09:55   like I think the very first one for N64,

02:09:57   but not even the second one or whatever.

02:09:59   - Yeah, this one's supposed to be very different

02:10:01   and more open world-y, so that could be worse or better,

02:10:03   but we'll see.

02:10:03   - Which one's the one where you drive around

02:10:04   the dragon boat and play all the flute songs?

02:10:07   - Wind Waker.

02:10:07   - Yeah, she played that one, I think,

02:10:09   but I think that was it.

02:10:11   - Play all the flute songs.

02:10:12   Just, no flute, no flute!

02:10:16   - What, what is it?

02:10:18   It's a recorder?

02:10:19   - It's a wand, it's called the Wind Waker.

02:10:21   It wakes the wind.

02:10:24   You don't blow into it, you wave it around.

02:10:27   (beeping)