209: Making Sausage-Making Glamorous


00:00:00   - I was just feeling out to see whether you're making

00:00:01   a legit mistake.

00:00:03   We're trolling and you's trolling.

00:00:06   - I am a trolling.

00:00:07   Are you guys using your AirPods anymore?

00:00:11   - I still am.

00:00:12   - I am not.

00:00:14   Tiff uses them more than I do now because--

00:00:16   - Did you get one pair or two pair?

00:00:19   - I got one pair, which is two AirPods.

00:00:22   But yes, I got three AirPods.

00:00:25   - How many ear holes can you fill with the AirPods

00:00:28   that are in the house?

00:00:30   - Two.

00:00:31   - Okay, that's what I thought.

00:00:32   Okay, so you have a single pair, like you said.

00:00:34   - Yes.

00:00:35   - And Tiff is using them more than you.

00:00:37   - Yeah, she uses them actually often with the Apple TV.

00:00:39   Like when I'm podcasting, she can watch TV.

00:00:40   - Really?

00:00:41   - Yeah, it isn't as nice as using it with other stuff,

00:00:44   but it does work.

00:00:45   And there's a couple of niceties.

00:00:47   Like when you use the volume up and down

00:00:49   on the Apple TV remote with AirPods connected,

00:00:52   it does the volume to them instead of like your speakers.

00:00:54   So it doesn't do like the auto pairing thing

00:00:56   the way it does on iOS devices,

00:00:57   but once you have it paired, it works nicely.

00:01:00   - So how does that, I'm not trying to be funny,

00:01:02   how does that work then?

00:01:03   Do you have to like go into settings in the Apple TV

00:01:05   and say connect to the AirPods every single time?

00:01:08   - I forget if we do it every single time.

00:01:11   I think it was just the first time.

00:01:12   I don't know, usually she just does it.

00:01:14   I think once they're paired.

00:01:15   - As long as you don't pair them

00:01:16   with something else though, right?

00:01:17   - That's the issue.

00:01:18   And so, I've actually seen this a number of times.

00:01:21   Like I was doing, I was trying to do testing

00:01:23   between like the phone, the TV, iPad,

00:01:27   watch, a Mac, like, you know,

00:01:29   testing all these different things,

00:01:30   and I found that AirPods are a little bit frustrating

00:01:34   in trying to share between different devices

00:01:38   and having it not quite always do what you want.

00:01:40   Like, even though the old way of doing Bluetooth,

00:01:44   where you just have to, like, un-pair from one device

00:01:45   and pair it to something else, that's also terrible.

00:01:48   But the way AirPods do it is not quite flawless.

00:01:52   But it's-- - How do they do it?

00:01:53   That's my question.

00:01:54   because I have used my AirPods with my phone and my iPad,

00:01:57   right, those are two devices.

00:01:59   - Yeah.

00:02:01   - Is something supposed to happen

00:02:02   other than me going to settings and tapping Bluetooth

00:02:05   and tapping AirPods, 'cause that's what I've been doing.

00:02:08   - My favorite thing is occasionally I'll put in

00:02:10   a single AirPod and I'll be in like the bedroom

00:02:13   and I'm listening to a podcast or something like that.

00:02:16   And then I'll put in, it's like five or 10 minutes later,

00:02:19   I'll put in another, the other AirPod,

00:02:23   and it will go to connect.

00:02:24   And for whatever reason,

00:02:26   it will semi-consistently connect to the iMac,

00:02:28   which is in the next room over in the office.

00:02:30   And so I have one AirPod connected to my phone

00:02:33   and one connected to my iMac.

00:02:35   And so I'll double tap like the one connected to the iMac,

00:02:39   which I still haven't changed to do play/pause.

00:02:42   So I'll hear Siri out of one ear

00:02:44   and then like whatever podcast I'm listening to

00:02:45   out of the other ear.

00:02:46   It's actually quite funny.

00:02:48   And I could see how that would be really frustrating

00:02:51   someone who isn't like a developer perhaps or who doesn't think about how difficult it is to

00:02:56   implement all this, but to me I just find it to be hysterical. Yeah, I still get some weird audio

00:03:01   sync problems sometimes, but overall they're still winning just because I guess my hatred of chords

00:03:05   and snags has changed everything else. I find it very frustrating that I can't change volume and

00:03:10   I have all these crazy schemes on how to adjust the volume by like reaching into my pocket and

00:03:16   feeling for which side of the phone is face up so I know whether I have to reach for the side with

00:03:20   the power button or the volume thing like, especially with gloves on and stuff like that.

00:03:26   Slow down.

00:03:27   Are you talking pant pocket or jacket pocket?

00:03:28   Jacket.

00:03:29   Oh, okay.

00:03:30   Then I singed my song.

00:03:31   You know, I wear winter jacket and you know, reach around there to change the thing.

00:03:36   Or like when I do it in the kitchen, like I said, I don't even put the phone in the

00:03:38   kitchen.

00:03:39   The phone is in the dining room.

00:03:41   So if I want to change the volume, I have to like take a few steps into the other room

00:03:44   and on the little sideboard thing hit the volume up or down.

00:03:47   And I'm living with it and apparently, you know, proof's in the pudding.

00:03:52   People hate it when I say that because that's not correct.

00:03:53   But deal with it, you know what I mean.

00:03:58   That I'm now using them despite the fact that double tapping my ear is uncomfortable.

00:04:03   And despite the fact that double tapping works weirdly and consistently.

00:04:07   Some people have suggested the triple tap to try to, you know, have a mulligan in there

00:04:11   if one of them doesn't register.

00:04:14   Sometimes I blame Overcast and/or /iOS for taking Overcast out of memory so that it has

00:04:20   to launch again before it can start playing, and then I question whether it registered

00:04:26   my Taps and it just hasn't started playing yet.

00:04:28   Sometimes it's so far out of memory that it starts playing music, despite the fact that

00:04:32   the last thing I was listening to was a podcast.

00:04:36   Very confusing.

00:04:37   But anyway, all that said, I'm still using them instead of my wired ones.

00:04:41   The only place I've used my wired ones recently was watching my iPad in a case where my AirPods

00:04:47   were downstairs.

00:04:48   And it's like, "Well, I've got the wired headphones here and I'm not going anywhere when I'm just

00:04:51   watching something on my iPad on my bed or something."

00:04:54   - I mean, like the wireless I'm totally sold on.

00:04:56   And as I mentioned earlier, like, I love the idea of the AirPods as just how incredibly

00:05:00   small and pocketable they are.

00:05:02   They don't fit me comfortably and they don't really work for my life as a result.

00:05:06   And so that's why I'm not really using them and why I tend to be using them more than

00:05:09   I am.

00:05:10   But that being said, all those limitations about

00:05:12   what you can and can't easily control from them,

00:05:15   like volume and play/pause being finicky

00:05:17   and stuff like that, when I switch back to my

00:05:21   beloved old Sennheiser PX210BT,

00:05:25   when it has its giant, this little on-ear Bluetooth set

00:05:29   that I've had for a couple years now

00:05:31   that I walk my dog every day with,

00:05:33   and it just has these big plastic buttons

00:05:37   on the right ear cup and I can play/pause,

00:05:39   volume up and down, seek back, seek forward,

00:05:41   next track, previous track, all with these five buttons

00:05:44   on the right ear cup and it is just so convenient.

00:05:47   And every time I try other headphones for a little while

00:05:50   to review them or to talk about them on the show

00:05:52   or whatever else, whenever I go back to my crappy

00:05:55   little Sennheiser Bluetooth headphones,

00:05:57   I am so happy with the amount of control and convenience

00:06:00   that I have for them, even though they sound like crap

00:06:03   and they're pretty ugly and they are still

00:06:06   like over the head headphones, even though they're

00:06:08   compact ones, so they don't fit in any pocket really.

00:06:11   They'll fit in jacket pockets, but not in like

00:06:13   a pants pocket, and it is just so nice to have those.

00:06:16   And I've tried now, I still haven't done a review,

00:06:20   I keep meaning to maybe do video reviews,

00:06:22   and I keep putting that off, 'cause it turns out

00:06:23   video's a lot of work, but I've tried now many

00:06:28   high end Bluetooth headphones, including the AirPods,

00:06:32   but also including like all like the $400 crazy ones

00:06:35   from like B&O and B&W and Bose

00:06:38   and all these other headphone companies.

00:06:41   And the convenience of my relatively cheap

00:06:44   Bluetooth headphones that just have big plastic buttons

00:06:46   on the side cannot be beat.

00:06:48   Like it is, they are so convenient for everyday use.

00:06:51   That's why I'll use them for podcasts.

00:06:53   And I would never recommend them for music

00:06:54   'cause they sound like trash.

00:06:57   They just have the worst sound for music ever.

00:06:59   But for podcasts, it's totally fine.

00:07:01   And oh man, it's just so nice having those

00:07:04   physical controls right on the ear,

00:07:05   I can operate it with gloves on,

00:07:07   I don't have to use any voice assistants,

00:07:08   they work every single time,

00:07:09   like it's just reliable physical controls.

00:07:12   And they're not sexy, and they're not cool, but they work.

00:07:16   And it's really hard to beat that for me.

00:07:18   - Yeah, if only there was a device you could like,

00:07:20   I don't know, strapped to your body somehow,

00:07:23   that would give you all of those physical controls,

00:07:26   and also let you like get a text message,

00:07:29   and also let you reply to a text message,

00:07:31   and also let you get other notifications.

00:07:33   Wouldn't that be awesome?

00:07:34   Anyway, let's do some follow-up.

00:07:35   - No, actually, remember, I said that it works every time.

00:07:38   The ear cup buttons work every time, not 80% of the time.

00:07:41   And I can use them with gloves on and yeah.

00:07:44   - Speaking of that, I keep forgetting to try that.

00:07:45   That was suggested so long ago

00:07:47   and it still hasn't occurred to me to try that.

00:07:49   I should give that a try, although I really don't

00:07:50   be wearing watches. - Try what?

00:07:51   Using the watch?

00:07:52   Okay. - Yeah.

00:07:53   As an example of having a physical volume control

00:07:55   is easier than reaching into my pocket

00:07:57   and finding my phone's volume button and stuff like that.

00:08:00   - Truth be told, finding the volume button

00:08:02   is probably easier, but this is a solvable problem.

00:08:06   It's just that you don't want to solve it,

00:08:08   you don't want it to be solved the way it has been solved.

00:08:10   Sounds like me in cars.

00:08:11   Let's do some follow-up. - No, no,

00:08:12   there's actually a solution.

00:08:14   I already have it.

00:08:14   It was really cheap a few years ago,

00:08:16   and it works perfectly every time.

00:08:19   And the newfangled solution is both

00:08:23   something like four times the price and worse.

00:08:26   So no, this actually is a case

00:08:28   where the old solution was totally fine.

00:08:31   And the good thing is, this is one of those areas

00:08:33   where as you, Casey, have been an advocate of for so long,

00:08:37   cheap Bluetooth headphones are plentiful these days.

00:08:40   Tons of people make cheap Bluetooth headphones.

00:08:42   And they're largely pretty decent.

00:08:45   They're not good, but they're decent.

00:08:47   And for their price, they're usually fairly reasonable.

00:08:51   And these headphones were, at the time,

00:08:53   I bought them kind of expensive

00:08:55   at something like $100 or $110.

00:08:59   They're not worth more than that

00:09:00   if you see them for sale, don't pay more than that.

00:09:02   But they're not even worth that really these days.

00:09:05   However, this is like a five year old pair of headphones.

00:09:08   This is one of the areas where the higher end headphones,

00:09:10   the higher end wireless headphones

00:09:13   are nicer in certain ways.

00:09:15   They are possibly more portable like AirPods.

00:09:17   They are better sounding like some of the high end ones

00:09:20   from B&O and stuff.

00:09:21   They are better noise cancellation

00:09:24   and maybe more comfortable

00:09:25   'cause they're larger on ear things.

00:09:27   However, for practicality of just like wireless,

00:09:30   wearing them while walking or running or around the house,

00:09:33   doing stuff like John cooking,

00:09:35   the cheap ones with plastic buttons on them

00:09:38   are actually better for almost all purposes

00:09:41   for that kind of use than the high-end expensive ones.

00:09:44   - I mostly agree with you.

00:09:46   If you ever need to flip between devices,

00:09:50   then the AirPods or anything really with a W1 chip

00:09:53   start to make a lot more sense.

00:09:55   But if you are consistent with one machine, for example, my $25 Bluetooth headphones I

00:10:01   bought literally five years ago, I believe, that are still kicking, I just don't use them

00:10:04   because my AirPods.

00:10:06   I only ever use those with my work computer, and it was great.

00:10:10   The sound was acceptable, and they had buttons on the side if I really needed them, although

00:10:16   I had the keyboard right in front of me.

00:10:18   But anyway, yeah, they worked just fine.

00:10:20   And I do agree with you.

00:10:21   You know, I freaking love my AirPods, but nonetheless, if you don't feel like spending

00:10:28   $160 on a set of little earbuds, you can easily spend between $20 and $100 and get something

00:10:33   that's nearly as good as long as you're not switching between devices frequently.

00:10:38   As long as you don't mind a giant thing, like I would never trade my AirPods.

00:10:41   I would go back to wired earbuds before I would go to a big thing that goes over my

00:10:45   head with a big band and puts two big squishy circles on my ears.

00:10:48   Like I want the buds.

00:10:50   That's what I want.

00:10:51   And so wired or wireless, those are my choices.

00:10:53   And then a distant third would be,

00:10:55   okay, if I can't have any kind of earbud,

00:10:57   then I guess I'll go an over-ear thing.

00:11:00   - Fair enough.

00:11:01   All right, let's start the show and do some follow-up.

00:11:04   John, why don't you tell me about phone contracts

00:11:08   and other ways that you can make people buy iPhones?

00:11:12   - This is much more interesting, thanks.

00:11:14   - Yeah, last week, we were talking about

00:11:16   the different tractors that make people feel like

00:11:19   need to get a new device on a faster schedule than people apparently and/or supposedly get

00:11:25   new iPads.

00:11:27   And I was bringing up the idea that phones get dropped and break more often than iPads,

00:11:31   just by their nature.

00:11:33   So that could be one thing that will make people turn them over.

00:11:35   A couple of people wrote in to bring up the idea of contracts, which are less prevalent

00:11:41   now than they used to be in the US.

00:11:43   It used to be that the phone was like, "Oh, it's, you know, $200 for this phone on a two-year

00:11:48   your contract revolved, blah, and they would just, typical money hiding schemes where,

00:11:52   you know, human nature makes you not see the upfront cost and you don't do the multiplication

00:11:57   in your head, so it seems like a cheaper deal. These days, it seems to me, as someone who

00:12:02   does not buy a new phone that often, that the shift is more towards...

00:12:05   You've bought a new phone exactly once! Yeah, well, no, you know, I've, I suppose.

00:12:11   I've bought my track phones, too. That the move is away from contracts and more towards

00:12:18   buying them up front unlocked. I don't know if that's a just an iPhone thing or just a

00:12:23   my personal experience thing, but either way historically that has been a big motivator

00:12:27   to get people to buy a new phone every few years because it seems like a good deal because

00:12:31   they hide all the costs from you in a way that makes your silly fallible brain feel

00:12:37   like you're not spending the money that you are spending.

00:12:39   No, wait, can we pause here for a moment? Am I supposed to be paying less on my cell

00:12:44   phone bill now that I buy my phones outright because I'm not?

00:12:47   - No, you shouldn't be, but there is.

00:12:49   - Ah, that's not true.

00:12:51   - Well, it depends on how bad of a deal you got,

00:12:53   but the strange thing about the deals now

00:12:55   is that they psychologically seem more expensive.

00:12:59   - No, like mine just is more expensive.

00:13:01   Like, so I have AT&T, and I started buying my phones out

00:13:05   right at not taking their subsidies anymore,

00:13:07   and the plans are all still the same prices,

00:13:09   and I, like, I'm not, I'm just spending more money now.

00:13:12   - No, you should be spending,

00:13:14   you should be spending a little bit less.

00:13:15   I'm logging into AT&T right now,

00:13:17   But what happens is the plans cost the same.

00:13:21   However, they give you a very peculiarly,

00:13:26   peculiar named discount

00:13:28   once you're no longer subsidizing a phone.

00:13:31   And it's gonna take me like three hours

00:13:33   to figure out where in my bill this is listed.

00:13:36   - Yeah, I remember hearing the same thing from my wife

00:13:39   who wrangles the phone contracts.

00:13:41   Sometimes you have to call them to remind them

00:13:44   to give you the better deal once you're off contract

00:13:47   and then that deal gets, I don't know.

00:13:49   - Discount for access, which is on the main line,

00:13:52   $25 off your total cost.

00:13:54   - What a great name.

00:13:55   - Because discount for access,

00:13:56   actually it's on both lines, it's $25 off.

00:13:59   Because when I think discount for access,

00:14:01   I think this is offsetting the subsidy cost, don't you?

00:14:04   (laughing)

00:14:06   - That's fantastic.

00:14:07   - Yeah, but it is an interesting change

00:14:09   that they're getting brave enough to reveal the price

00:14:13   in a way that will register with consumers' brains

00:14:16   in the way that, you know, it's much scarier

00:14:18   than the old way of like, oh, every new iPhone is $200.

00:14:21   Now every new iPhone is $800.

00:14:23   And you're like, whoa, $800?

00:14:25   It's like you just didn't do the math before.

00:14:28   So then the other factor that people wouldn't talk about

00:14:31   for getting new phones that's gonna make you get a new phone

00:14:34   before you would get a new iPad or even a new, you know,

00:14:37   laptop is battery life,

00:14:39   which you think would make a difference

00:14:40   because iPads and laptops have batteries too,

00:14:41   but phones' batteries are really, really small

00:14:44   and they're much closer to the ragged edge of acceptable

00:14:47   in terms of battery life.

00:14:48   So when the tiny little battery that probably is subjected

00:14:52   to much harsher environmental conditions

00:14:53   than your iPad or your laptop,

00:14:55   in terms of putting it in pockets

00:14:58   or maybe leaving it in cars and stuff like that,

00:15:00   like I feel like in the same way of dropping,

00:15:02   the phone goes everywhere with you.

00:15:04   So there's more variability,

00:15:05   even just being in your outside jacket pocket

00:15:07   during the winter, which I'm guilty of.

00:15:08   I mean, when I'm shoveling snow,

00:15:09   I have my phone in my jacket pocket.

00:15:11   That can't be good for the battery

00:15:12   to deal with those temperatures.

00:15:14   Anyway, when the phone battery starts to go south, it's a bad scene.

00:15:19   You can deal with a many years old iPad battery because then it drops from 10 hours to 5,

00:15:26   but because of the way we use iPads that's okay.

00:15:28   But if your phone drops from making it until 6pm to making it to only 4pm, that's a no

00:15:35   go and you're going to be like, "Oh, I need a new phone because my battery sucks."

00:15:38   So more hardware based reasons that people want new phones sooner than they want new

00:15:43   Also, there's the Apple whatever upgrade program. I forget what it's called now, but I feel like several

00:15:50   Like normal people that I know have started doing that. What is that called? Is it just upgrade iPhone upgrade program?

00:15:56   But anyway, I feel like that's yes iPhone upgrade program and that and there are equivalents with each carrier that are roughly the same money

00:16:05   So I feel like that's what's going on is it's your sort of kind of leasing your phone now

00:16:10   - I mean, honestly, this is really a better system.

00:16:13   I mean, this is like, most of the rest of the world

00:16:16   outside of the US were doing systems that were more

00:16:20   like this long before we were, or you literally just

00:16:24   bought the phone outright and then paid cheaper plans.

00:16:26   It does make more sense this way.

00:16:29   Things are a little bit more honest, even though they,

00:16:33   as usual, America has taken a straight, normal, honest

00:16:36   system and has twisted it in such a way that it's really

00:16:39   confusing and complicated and tries to hide

00:16:41   all the actual costs still.

00:16:43   - It's called capitalism.

00:16:44   - It's called something.

00:16:45   But yeah, I mean, I think this is still,

00:16:49   this is long-term a better system,

00:16:51   even if it is somewhat confusing in the short-term

00:16:53   as we have made this transition over the last few years.

00:16:56   - All right.

00:16:57   John, tell me, if I take a photograph

00:17:01   of you flashing me the peace sign, is that a problem?

00:17:05   This is related to the idea of biometrics

00:17:09   and how accessible the features of your body

00:17:12   may be to other people, because once they have them,

00:17:16   and if you use them as a means of security on your devices,

00:17:19   then you've got a problem,

00:17:20   because as we established that show,

00:17:22   your face is indeed your face

00:17:24   and your fingers are your fingers.

00:17:25   And so I was talking about how it is easier

00:17:28   to get pictures of someone's face,

00:17:30   that is to get pictures of their fingerprints.

00:17:33   Two articles related to this.

00:17:35   One from Japan where cultural custom is to flash the peace sign, two fingers up in the

00:17:40   air in photos.

00:17:42   And if you do that, obviously you're facing two of your fingerprints right at the camera.

00:17:47   Get good enough lighting, get enough megapixels, you can lift your prints off of that.

00:17:51   So there's an article about that happening and being careful about it because you are

00:17:56   literally showing them your fingerprints.

00:17:58   Here they are!

00:17:59   And, you know, technology's amazing, we can lift fingerprints from that.

00:18:02   And then the second article was in a more challenging scenario.

00:18:05   Can we pull fingerprints from a photo where someone's not flashing a peace sign, but we

00:18:10   just happen to catch their finger at the right angle at the right time, whether it be video

00:18:14   or still photos?

00:18:16   And the answer is yes, you can do that as well if you get the right shot.

00:18:21   All of which is scary and all of which leads to the idea that especially for public figures

00:18:26   or people who expect to be photographed or people who have access to things that are

00:18:30   highly desirable as opposed to just like your personal email account but if you are someone

00:18:35   who is a head of state or something and you're using your fingerprints for something important

00:18:38   then people are highly motivated to get them. So yeah, be careful out there. Don't show

00:18:44   people your fingers or your face I suppose.

00:18:46   Yeah, just never be photographed in any capacity ever.

00:18:50   Yep.

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00:20:51   Continuing, Jon, can you tell me about Chromebooks and Chrome OS and how that relates to ARM

00:20:58   Macs?

00:20:59   We talked about the ARM Mac rumor idea from Slashdot as a more locked-down Mac-type system,

00:21:07   and a lot of people brought up Chromebooks, which we have talked about in the past, as

00:21:11   an example of a very similar type of thing that has existed for a while.

00:21:15   It's taking it more to the extreme.

00:21:16   Not only is the Chromebook obviously locked down in the way that this fantasize/rumor

00:21:24   on a Mac was, but also it shifts everything to network, which this rumor did not mention

00:21:30   anything about the Mac being.

00:21:31   But it all boils down to the piece of hardware being more robust in the face of user indifference.

00:21:40   I don't know how to phrase it.

00:21:43   You don't have to know how to, you can know less about using a personal computer and be

00:21:49   successful with it in the same way that you don't need to know as much about personal

00:21:52   computing to be successful with an iPad or an iPhone as opposed to a MacBook.

00:21:56   So Chromebooks, there are far fewer places where you can get into trouble.

00:21:59   Software installing software is more straightforward.

00:22:02   The number of things you can do to it to mess it up is much lower.

00:22:05   The overall system is simpler.

00:22:07   Obviously Chromebook and Chrome OS are a far cry from the Mac operating system with a heavy

00:22:12   focus on doing stuff with web technologies through a browser with many

00:22:17   things being put into the cloud and I think that simplification in fact is a

00:22:21   big advantage Chromebooks have over any of Apple's devices. The aggressively

00:22:27   cloud centric focus that this thing you're holding your hand is nothing

00:22:30   everything you do if you have access to the network is saved to the network

00:22:35   aggressively so that pretty much at any point when you're working on a Chromebook

00:22:39   You can do a five count and then throw the thing out the window into a lake and

00:22:43   Then go get another Chromebook from the back room and sign in and resume where you left off

00:22:47   You cannot do that with any Apple device. All right, that's the dream of the Chromebook

00:22:51   I've always thought it was a brilliant idea perhaps not very well executed. But every time we talk about

00:22:56   iPads or Macs especially as they relate to education

00:23:00   people come out of the woodwork to tell us how

00:23:03   Chromebooks are kicking apples butt in education because what a dream machine

00:23:07   You know, educational institutions do not want to deal with wrangling computers or software

00:23:12   or anything like that.

00:23:13   You have a bunch of computers that you're going to put a bunch of students in front

00:23:16   of.

00:23:17   That's just, you know, they're going to do everything they can to mess those things up.

00:23:21   And even if they don't, the computers, like, eventually will mess themselves up, especially

00:23:25   if they're, you know, if it's Windows and we're in a decade ago, I assume it's better

00:23:30   now.

00:23:31   Chromebooks are very resilient.

00:23:32   Sorry iPads for that matter, but Chromebooks even more so in that they are resistant to

00:23:37   to slowly degrading and/or being compromised by devious students.

00:23:43   And there's lots of good tools for managing fleets of these things and for having multiple

00:23:48   students sign into them.

00:23:49   And Apple's made some strides here with their weird multi-user sign in and out sync everything

00:23:53   from iCloud things they've been doing with the iPad lately.

00:23:56   But Chromebooks almost always been on price because you can get cheap crappy ones.

00:24:01   And you know, cash-strapped schools love that.

00:24:04   And they're doing very well in management.

00:24:05   And I always wonder if Apple cares that much about that market or do they just like the

00:24:11   rest of the many markets, they just want the high end of that market, they just want to

00:24:13   sell iPads to the rich schools and let everyone else have Chromebooks or something.

00:24:17   But I worry that the value proposition represented by Chromebooks in the ideal, if not in actuality,

00:24:25   is not falling on deaf ears at Apple, but is not valued by the people inside Apple as

00:24:32   much as it should be.

00:24:34   talk about future of computing, many of the aspects promised by Chromebooks and many of

00:24:38   them delivered by Chromebooks definitely feel more like the future of computing in terms

00:24:44   of having to worry less about managing the machine and having to worry less about the

00:24:49   machine itself because in a network connected world, yes, you can work offline but it would

00:24:54   be great if the source of truth was someplace fast and reliable that is not sitting in front

00:24:58   of you.

00:24:59   a part of, last week when we were talking about that rumored slashdot comment, locked

00:25:05   down next generation ARM Mac, even though again, just claim already, that was very unlikely

00:25:11   to be true. However, one thing I forgot to mention during my rant about how good that

00:25:15   might be is that that might address the Chromebook market pretty well too. Like, that wouldn't

00:25:21   have to be a high-end hardware device, that could run on iPad class hardware and be passable.

00:25:28   And so they could, if Apple wanted to address this market,

00:25:31   which as you pointed out, they might not want to,

00:25:34   although I think it's, I'm with you,

00:25:36   I think they should address it if they reasonably can.

00:25:41   Which is not to say definitely yes or no,

00:25:43   but I think if they reasonably can address it,

00:25:45   I think they should.

00:25:46   Because having mass numbers of students growing up

00:25:50   using all Google services on all Google computers

00:25:53   is probably not good for Apple long term.

00:25:56   But that being said, if Apple could take that kind of

00:25:59   next gen Mac on ARM concept and make a very low end

00:26:02   hardware device that was basically like, you know,

00:26:05   mid generation iPad level hardware.

00:26:08   Like, suppose that OS is two years away,

00:26:10   they could take today's like iPad Air 2 hardware,

00:26:13   sell it in two years in this little like, you know,

00:26:16   MacBook One sized case for 400 bucks maybe?

00:26:20   I mean like, that could actually get them

00:26:24   a lot of the way there.

00:26:25   and that OS's additional lockdown-ness

00:26:29   and easy management and easy security and everything

00:26:32   would all help in that regard too.

00:26:33   So I think one of the things that made me consider

00:26:38   that comment as possibly interesting

00:26:41   and possibly plausible is that Apple has to be feeling,

00:26:46   they have to be feeling the hurt a little bit

00:26:50   from the massive success of Chromebooks in schools.

00:26:53   They have to be feeling that on some level.

00:26:55   Whether they choose to address it yet is another question,

00:26:56   but I think if they're going to address it,

00:26:59   that hypothetical lockdown R Mac

00:27:01   would be a really nice way to address it,

00:27:03   because obviously they can try pushing iPads,

00:27:05   they have, as much as they want,

00:27:07   and they have gotten decent numbers of iPads

00:27:09   sold into schools, but there's a reason

00:27:11   why those Chromebooks keep selling so well,

00:27:13   and a big reason is price, no question.

00:27:15   And it's, again, it's a question of whether Apple

00:27:18   is willing to or should compete on price to that level.

00:27:22   But also a big reason for that is that a lot of schools

00:27:27   and students do prefer working on some kind of

00:27:30   laptop shaped device with a laptop keyboard.

00:27:32   Yes, you can put keyboards on iPads,

00:27:36   but we all know from trying that,

00:27:39   that's not really what they're great at,

00:27:40   that's not really what they're designed for,

00:27:42   and if you're trying to manage a fleet of student devices,

00:27:45   the last thing you want is detachable, expensive accessories.

00:27:49   You want it to be one integrated unit

00:27:50   that you can manage as one integrated unit.

00:27:52   So that actually might be part of their strategy

00:27:56   to combat Chromebooks long term,

00:27:58   and if it isn't, I think it might be worth considering

00:28:00   whether it should.

00:28:01   - So this is yet another time we have to bring up

00:28:03   that one of the big advantages Google has

00:28:05   in terms of management is the fact

00:28:06   they do do everything server-side,

00:28:08   and that is Google's strength,

00:28:09   and historically has not been Apple's strength

00:28:11   to have very robust cloud services

00:28:15   where the source of truth is in the cloud,

00:28:17   not on the device.

00:28:20   in the same way, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be web-based tools like Google Docs and

00:28:23   stuff, which by the way is in extensive use in schools. I'm using it at work now too, and

00:28:30   we've mentioned this before, we use it for our show notes. It's to the point where,

00:28:36   like, I'm waiting for it to unseat Microsoft Word in the entire corporate world. I know that's going

00:28:41   to take so freaking long. But among certain wings of large corporations, it is possible to

00:28:47   Displaced word and everybody is happier and seeing my kids do everything in Google Docs is like Marco brought up

00:28:51   If you're if you grow up doing that you just think oh word processing equals Google Docs and how does Google Docs work?

00:28:56   You need servers the service need to be reliable. They need to be fast. They need to be always up. They need to not lose data

00:29:02   Google is really good at that

00:29:05   Apple is

00:29:07   Not as good at it

00:29:08   So that's one weakness Apple has in doing that and the other reason I think Apple should be thinking about this market where Chromebooks are

00:29:14   giving them a run for their money with iPads and everything is like it is a

00:29:19   demanding environment. Public schools with a bunch of kids messing with your

00:29:25   stuff is demanding physically speaking. It's demanding from a management

00:29:29   perspective because you have a lot of devices. You have people managing them

00:29:32   who perhaps are not the most technically savvy because that's not their job. Like

00:29:36   teachers have to deal with them and they don't they want to be teachers. They

00:29:39   don't want to be like IT managers, right? So the easier it is to manage the better.

00:29:43   But, like, making a device that is successful in that environment, like that is very hostile,

00:29:50   much more hostile than corporate IT, much more hostile than an individual user's house

00:29:55   who buys the thing and posts an unboxing video and treats it like a little perfect baby,

00:29:58   right?

00:29:59   Schools are brutal.

00:30:00   But in the same way that, you know, OXO GoodGrips, a company that I believe, I don't know if

00:30:06   it was founded on this or was aimed at this originally, but the story I've always heard,

00:30:10   I like it, so I'll keep repeating it as if it's true, was that they were making tools

00:30:14   for people with arthritis and other sort of motor difficulties with their hands.

00:30:19   If you have trouble operating a regular can opener, try the Oxo can opener because I know

00:30:23   you can't, like, it hurts to turn a regular can opener, but here we have one that has

00:30:28   very grippy material and a big rounded turny thing with lots of leverage and so, you know,

00:30:35   and it turns out, good old turns out, everyone loves it.

00:30:38   If you make tools that are easy for people to use who have hand mobility or strength

00:30:44   problems, people who do not have hand mobility or strength problems also love them because

00:30:50   they're just better tools.

00:30:51   They give you better mechanical advantage.

00:30:53   They work more smoothly.

00:30:55   So if you make something for an environment that is demanding in some way, "Oh, our customers

00:31:00   only have this amount of hand strength and the average adult has five times that," can

00:31:06   you make a can opener that works for them?

00:31:08   If you successfully do that, you haven't made, "Oh, this is only a niche device for people

00:31:13   who have mobility problems with their hands."

00:31:15   No, what you've made is an amazing can opener.

00:31:17   So if you make a laptop that can survive and continue functioning and be manageable by

00:31:23   teachers and students in a public school environment, you just happen to have also made an awesome

00:31:27   laptop that you can put into the guy's house who's going to treat it like a perfect little

00:31:31   baby and always do everything nice with it and read articles about it and do all that

00:31:34   stuff.

00:31:35   They'll love it too, because guess what?

00:31:37   just easier to manage, it works more often, there are fewer problems. That is just a better

00:31:42   product all around. So I would never want to see Apple surrender this market if only

00:31:47   because it acts as a crucible for testing the durability of every part of your product,

00:31:55   from the hardware to the software to the management, the whole nine yards.

00:31:58   Let's talk about N.O. Rowling who writes, "I bought my first MacBook Pro for work last

00:32:03   year since my job is web development and thus the target is obviously Linux, I chose to

00:32:09   go case sensitive to avoid trouble as much as possible.

00:32:14   I've been burned by Windows Case Ignorant File System in the past.

00:32:17   Given how long OS X and HFS+ have been around, I expected that most modern software would

00:32:24   run on either setup, but now I've learned that both Steam and Adobe Creative Suite will

00:32:30   not run on my machine unless I reformat it.

00:32:32   Oops.

00:32:33   to hear your opinion on the state of this and who you think is to blame for this mess.

00:32:38   John, as our file system expert.

00:32:41   Humans are to blame, as always. So yeah, the case sensitive versus insensitive thing. HFS+

00:32:46   and HFS before it, and MFS, I believe, were all case insensitive in that you could not

00:32:55   have two files whose file names differed only in capitalization. And there's a whole bunch

00:32:58   of Unicode normalization rules revolving around that, but let's just talk about ASCII, capital

00:33:04   and lowercase letters. If you had a file named myfile, all caps, you could not have a file right

00:33:09   next to it in the same directory called myfile, all lowercase, because guess what? HFS+ does not

00:33:13   distinguish between those. Which is mostly a human factors choice on the original Mac, because

00:33:20   regular people don't consider those different things, like find me the file named Jerry. No,

00:33:26   No, not the one with the lowercase J, the one with the capital J.

00:33:30   Being able to, not having files that differ only in case, because people will type the

00:33:34   wrong file names in and think they didn't save it and stuff like that, so it is an important

00:33:37   user interface thing, but they implement it down at the file system level, which means

00:33:41   not only does the interface present in that way, but you physically can't save files that

00:33:47   differ only in case.

00:33:48   Now why would anybody want files that differ only in case?

00:33:50   Sometimes case contains information.

00:33:52   If you have acronyms or abbreviations or other type of things in your file names and they

00:33:58   happen to spell out words like A-N-D or something and you happen to have another file name that

00:34:02   has the lowercase because they wanted the thing and, you know, case does have meaning

00:34:06   in some cases.

00:34:07   But the most important reason that case insensitivity, the historic multi-decade case insensitivity

00:34:13   on the Mac is potentially a problem is if you ever change your mind, if you ever say,

00:34:20   Actually, we've decided for the future, since people don't really deal with the file system

00:34:22   that much anyway, say on your phones or on your iOS devices where people don't see the

00:34:26   file system, we don't need that extra complexity.

00:34:30   Because it is an extra complexity.

00:34:31   Every time you look up a file, you have to see if there's any variation on that file's

00:34:35   case and the same thing for writing a file.

00:34:36   You have to make sure no files exist with any variation of that file name's case.

00:34:41   And practically speaking, lots of software made for other platforms, like say Unix software

00:34:46   open source software, has files that are part of either the source code or the actual operation

00:34:50   of the binaries in practice that differ only in case.

00:34:56   And if you can't store them on the file system, you can't even like untar the source of an

00:35:02   open source tool and build it because it's got .lkc files and .C files because someone

00:35:06   thought .C was great for C++ many decades ago.

00:35:11   it will either puke or just randomly overwrite files and you will have things that don't build.

00:35:16   There's plenty of open source software that has plain old source files,

00:35:21   foo.c and capital F-O-O dot c in the same directory. This happens, it's a thing,

00:35:27   and if you can't deal with it at all then you have to make like disk images or virtual machines

00:35:31   and all sorts of stuff like that. But the real whammy is for decades and decades the Mac has

00:35:38   has been like this, and human beings have been writing software for the Mac, and those

00:35:44   human beings have put file paths in their software. They've written code that reads

00:35:50   things from the file system based on their path. And a surprising amount of time, those

00:35:56   file paths that the software is trying to read from the file system do not match the

00:36:01   case of the files on disk. And nobody notices when you run it on a case-sensitive file system,

00:36:06   Because if you were looking for, you know, file.conf where the F is capital, but on the

00:36:14   file system it's actually lowercase, your program works fine, because it says "Open

00:36:17   me file.conf with a capital F" and it says "I'm here, I found it" and it opens lowercase

00:36:21   file.conf and you're good to go because that's how all the APIs work.

00:36:25   You try to run that in a case-sensitive file system and the wheels fall off the wagon.

00:36:29   All of a sudden the thing doesn't work, can't even start up, you're using it, it does weird

00:36:33   stuff and it doesn't function correctly. And Steam, which isn't even that long on the Mac

00:36:38   platform, I guess it's been a few years now, but Adobe Creative Suite has deep roots. Lots

00:36:43   of complicated software inevitably has some part that either assumes case insensitivity

00:36:50   as like a foundational assumption of some section of the code, or accidentally assumes

00:36:53   case insensitivity by looking up files based on paths that don't match the actual case

00:36:58   of the files on disk.

00:37:00   Or, you know, more complicated variations of that

00:37:03   where one part of the thing will write a file

00:37:05   and the other thing will read it,

00:37:06   but they won't agree on the case.

00:37:07   And it's just, there are so many places

00:37:08   where things can go wrong.

00:37:09   And this is where the conventional wisdom goes

00:37:11   that if you format your Mac as case sensitive,

00:37:14   be prepared for a whole bunch of your software not to work

00:37:17   and for your only alternative to be to reformat

00:37:19   as case insensitive to get the stuff working.

00:37:20   And you might say,

00:37:21   "Well, why doesn't everybody just fix their software?"

00:37:23   Well, it's a chicken egg thing.

00:37:24   They don't need to fix their software

00:37:25   'cause nobody runs case sensitive HFS+ on their Macs.

00:37:28   And no one runs case sensitive HFS+ on their Macs

00:37:31   because none of their software works.

00:37:33   And so they're in an impasse there.

00:37:35   iOS devices have been case sensitive from day one,

00:37:37   which is a wise choice.

00:37:38   So there are not a bunch of iOS developers out there

00:37:41   writing applications that expect to read files

00:37:43   with paths that don't match the case.

00:37:44   'Cause guess what?

00:37:45   They wouldn't work.

00:37:46   So that's great.

00:37:47   But with APFS, I'm not even sure

00:37:50   what they're gonna end up doing on the Mac

00:37:51   'cause the APFS is not officially released on the Mac.

00:37:54   It's only on iOS.

00:37:56   But one way to solve the chicken and egg thing is say,

00:37:58   hey, guess what?

00:37:59   APFS is case sensitive only.

00:38:00   I can't imagine them doing that because as we can see,

00:38:03   Adobe Creative Steam wouldn't work

00:38:05   and those are not obscure applications.

00:38:06   So yeah.

00:38:09   So sorry, bad news.

00:38:10   You probably have to reformat your disk as case insensitive

00:38:13   to get your software to work again.

00:38:15   Inscrutable humans got you again.

00:38:17   (laughing)

00:38:20   Do you know, by the way, I guess Marco,

00:38:22   I'll say, does Marco have any Mac apps?

00:38:25   It's like, it's a good thing if you write an application

00:38:28   or any kind of software for the Mac to find out,

00:38:30   do you have these kind of problems in your software?

00:38:31   'Cause you'll never know it if you just run a regular Mac

00:38:33   all the time, but you'll be surprised, they're lurking.

00:38:35   I probably have them in my stupid blog system

00:38:37   that I used to publish for my blog once a year.

00:38:39   'Cause I've only ever run it

00:38:41   from a case insensitive file system.

00:38:42   There's probably in that tiny little piece of code,

00:38:44   someplace where I do something stupid

00:38:46   about case with file paths.

00:38:47   - We're sponsored this week by Eero.

00:38:50   Go to eero.com and use promo code ATP at checkout

00:38:54   to get free extra-added shipping.

00:38:56   Wi-Fi in our houses just isn't good enough.

00:38:59   When you only have one router,

00:39:01   which is the model we've been sold on forever,

00:39:03   no matter how many antennas you put on it,

00:39:04   no matter how high-powered it is,

00:39:06   there's gonna be dead spots and weak spots

00:39:08   in most houses or apartments.

00:39:10   We've all been there.

00:39:11   We all have the one room where the Wi-Fi

00:39:13   only gets one little arc and it doesn't really work

00:39:15   unless you hold the iPad upside down.

00:39:16   I've actually done that.

00:39:18   And this just is not a very good system for today

00:39:20   when we have so many Wi-Fi devices

00:39:22   that depend on a solid connection in our homes.

00:39:25   You know, what year is this?

00:39:26   We should have reliable WiFi in our entire houses.

00:39:29   And eero lets us do that by having multiple access points

00:39:32   work together from different points in the house

00:39:34   to just blanket your entire place

00:39:37   in solid, strong, fast WiFi coverage.

00:39:40   The way they do this, so they sell the little eero units.

00:39:42   They're kind of like the size of an Apple TV.

00:39:44   They're little nicely designed little things.

00:39:46   And you plug one of them in the same way

00:39:48   you'd plug in any other WiFi.

00:39:49   You plug it into your internet connection,

00:39:50   so you know, wherever that is.

00:39:52   and then you can plug the other ones in

00:39:53   anywhere else in your house,

00:39:54   and they talk to each other over a separate mesh network

00:39:57   that they make,

00:39:58   and then they blanket your home in pure high-speed Wi-Fi

00:40:01   from each one,

00:40:02   and they all work together to form one giant network.

00:40:05   And it's way faster than traditional repeaters

00:40:07   or anything like that

00:40:08   because of the separate mesh network thing.

00:40:10   Check out the reviews.

00:40:12   You will see for yourself,

00:40:14   and they sent us some too,

00:40:14   and we tried them out,

00:40:15   and we've had similarly great experiences.

00:40:17   Eros are fast,

00:40:19   and they are so easy to set up with their app,

00:40:21   and they have tons of great features.

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00:40:56   Thank you very much to Eero

00:40:57   for sponsoring our show once again.

00:40:59   - So, Jon, happy birthday to you.

00:41:07   Your birthday was actually, what, a month and a half ago,

00:41:11   but the gods have delivered you

00:41:14   the ultimate birthday present, sort of.

00:41:18   What's going on on Kickstarter these days, Jon?

00:41:22   My favorite Twitter client has been, from the moment I started using Twitter, Twitterific,

00:41:29   which I think was the very first Twitter client.

00:41:32   Certainly it was the first thing I ever used Twitter with.

00:41:34   I did not sign up for Twitter based on their terrible website.

00:41:37   I only signed up for it once Twitterific was out, and I'm like, "All right, this is a good

00:41:41   thing to do."

00:41:42   I mean, if it wasn't truly the first app that used a Twitter API, it was at least the first

00:41:46   app that anyone ever used that used the Twitter API. And it was by far the first app that

00:41:51   mattered.

00:41:52   Yeah. And so it was an iOS app, but before that there was a Mac app. I think the Mac

00:41:58   app came first. Anyway. Yeah. So Twitter clients have had a bumpy road. A couple years back

00:42:04   Twitter decided that it didn't really want third parties to make apps and it started

00:42:07   this whole thing where you can only make apps if you have these special tokens and there's

00:42:10   a limited number of those and some apps were grandfathered in. Oh, and by the way, a bunch

00:42:14   of new features we're rolling out can't be used by third-party clients because we really

00:42:17   don't like you third-party clients and it's made the market for Twitter apps very difficult,

00:42:22   for third-party Twitter apps very difficult.

00:42:25   Twitter for iOS has continued to be updated, nevertheless it's gone through many major

00:42:29   revisions and if you were to go buy it on the App Store today, which I recommend, it

00:42:33   is a great Twitter app.

00:42:35   I've never wavered despite also buying many other Twitter apps and having them installed.

00:42:39   I love Twitter because of its unified timeline where it makes everything that has happened

00:42:43   on Twitter related to the people you follow, a single list sorted by time. Mentions, tweets,

00:42:50   direct messages, your own tweets that go out, just all ordered by time. That's it. You know,

00:42:55   you can view them separately if you want, but I like it to just be one big list. That's

00:42:58   the unified timeline. Anyway, the Mac client, on the other hand, has not been updated in

00:43:02   many, many years because it just hasn't been economically feasible to update it because

00:43:07   the market for third-party Mac Twitter clients is just not sustainable anymore.

00:43:14   The market for third-party iOS Twitter clients is basically barely sustainable because so

00:43:18   many people use the official app and there are still features that you could only do

00:43:22   in the official app.

00:43:23   I hate the official app even though I have it installed.

00:43:25   Oh, it's the worst.

00:43:27   I don't understand how anyone uses it.

00:43:30   It's confusing to me.

00:43:31   People use their Twitter in all sorts of different ways.

00:43:34   So I happen to know some of the people who work at Icon Factory who make Twitterific,

00:43:40   and for many years I have been begging them half-jokingly to fix Twitter for the Mac,

00:43:46   which by the way I continue to use despite the fact that it is slowly crumbling.

00:43:50   Like you know when they added the thing where the tweets can be longer than you would have

00:43:54   expected, and it doesn't count like the mentions or everything towards the, or the URLs or

00:44:00   mentions towards the character count, some change related to the length of tweets. And

00:44:07   if you don't support the new longer tweet thing, what you get from the old version of

00:44:13   the API is a tweet that is truncated and it goes towards the end of the tweet, it just

00:44:18   goes dot, dot, dot, and then has a URL that you can click on to read the whole tweet on

00:44:22   Twitter's website. That's what long tweets look like in Twitter for the Mac, and yet

00:44:26   I still continue to use it.

00:44:28   I can't do so many things from the Mac version of the client that I can do from the iOS one,

00:44:33   but I still continue to use it because I like it, and every other Mac client that I've tried,

00:44:37   I dislike strongly in some way.

00:44:38   So I really wished for Twitter to come back to the Mac, but I understood, like, look,

00:44:44   you can't, you know, if it's not a viable market, it's not a viable market, even though

00:44:48   I offered to pay obscene amounts of money for Twitter for the Mac.

00:44:52   In fact, I believe it was only last week or the week before that you said, "I would

00:44:57   pay $100 for an updated version of Twitterific for the Mac."

00:45:00   I've said that many times, and I may or may not have been saying that because I may or

00:45:04   may not have known about this project ahead of time.

00:45:08   But anyway, now there is a Kickstarter.

00:45:11   The thing that we've joked about for so many years, like, "How much money would it take

00:45:14   to fund the number of developers who need to make this application?"

00:45:18   Let's just do a Kickstarter.

00:45:19   And if enough people want Twitter for the Mac, they will fund this thing and they will

00:45:25   make this application.

00:45:26   Like, it's an easy way to know that, yes, you will have the money to pay for the development

00:45:30   of this project because you get the money upfront-ish in exchange for the application.

00:45:36   So I have backed this Kickstarter.

00:45:39   I'm not going to tell you how much money I pledged, but it was a lot.

00:45:45   The goal is 75,000, but I want you all to ignore that, because the real goal is 100,000,

00:45:51   the so-called stretch goal, because the stretch goal includes all the features that I want,

00:45:56   including fairly essential things like direct messaging.

00:45:58   So I really want this Kickstarter to get to 100,000.

00:46:00   And if it doesn't, it will just be proving what Icon Factory has been saying all along,

00:46:04   is there's just not enough people who want this who are going to pay for it, even though

00:46:09   some of us are paying very much more than $5 for the privilege of having this application.

00:46:15   So you may or may not like using Twitter on the Mac period, because many people just don't

00:46:18   use it on the Mac at all.

00:46:20   Maybe use the website or whatever.

00:46:21   But if you are using an existing Mac Twitter client and don't like it, or it seems like

00:46:28   it hasn't been updated in a while like Twitter for the Mac, or it doesn't work the way you

00:46:32   want it to, this is an opportunity to get a shiny new Twitter client from a company

00:46:39   that really knows how to make Twitter clients.

00:46:44   only as much money as you could possibly afford. So please, please back this. It's up to $35,000

00:46:50   now and it has been open, it's got 28 days to go, and it's $35,000 out of a goal of not

00:46:56   75, ignore that goal, 100K. Please everybody make this happen because I want this Twitter

00:47:01   client.

00:47:02   But if we don't make it happen, does that mean we will finally break you of your ridiculous

00:47:06   insistence on the unified timeline?

00:47:08   No, I will never, I'm going to use Twitter for the Mac until it doesn't launch anymore.

00:47:13   After that, I'm going to beg my friends at Icon Factory to give me a special build that

00:47:17   does blunch.

00:47:18   No, I'm just giving you a hard time.

00:47:21   I know some of the folks from the Icon Factory, we all do actually, and they're great people,

00:47:25   so definitely check out this Kickstarter and throw them a few dollars if you can because

00:47:30   it would make Jon happy and it would make the folks at Icon Factory happy and they're

00:47:34   good people.

00:47:35   And you get good swag.

00:47:36   They have t-shirts, they have little vinyl Ollie dolls.

00:47:40   Ollie is their little blue Twitter bird.

00:47:43   You should read some of the history, I think, on the Icon Factory website. I don't have

00:47:45   a link to it. The history between Icon Factory and Twitter. Many of the things that you associate

00:47:50   with Twitter were, in fact, invented by Icon Factory. Terminology, iconography, so much.

00:47:55   Icon Factory is, like, practically part of Twitter, only not in the financial sense because

00:48:01   they do not have thousands of employees and bazillions of dollars of investment.

00:48:06   Didn't Hockenberry come up with tweet? Was that him? No, it was his coworker. Is that

00:48:11   right?

00:48:12   - I think so, something like that.

00:48:13   - I forget the details.

00:48:14   - I mean a lot, like a lot.

00:48:15   I believe they were the first ones to actually use a bird

00:48:19   as part of the logo, the word tweet.

00:48:22   They might even have invented @ replies, I don't know.

00:48:24   They did a lot, like a lot of Twitter standard things

00:48:29   and practices and mechanisms and everything

00:48:31   were invented by Icon Factory

00:48:33   or by their developers for their apps.

00:48:37   - And Ollie, the blue Twitter-ific bird

00:48:39   is along with the with Panics transmit truck one of the most ripped off icons on the entire

00:48:45   internet you see it everywhere is like that's just a generic representation of Twitter or

00:48:48   that's Twitter's logo nope nope not not Twitter's logo at all in fact Twitter's logo is worse

00:48:53   than icon factory's logo they should have just paid them to make their logos for them

00:48:56   but they didn't.

00:48:57   Cool well good luck I don't know if I'm if I should wish you good luck John if I should

00:49:03   wish the icon factory good luck I guess a little above.

00:49:05   You should do it either you should pledge money that's what you should do.

00:49:09   Here's why you should all pledge money.

00:49:10   So A, this is great software supported by great people

00:49:13   doing great things.

00:49:15   - Agreed.

00:49:15   - B, Twitter needs more diversity in software

00:49:18   and Twitterific is one of the very few clients

00:49:22   that got grandfathered in with a very large amount

00:49:25   of user tokens and so they actually can,

00:49:28   they're like one of the only companies that can make

00:49:30   a widespread Twitter client.

00:49:33   And C, if this Kickstarter doesn't fund,

00:49:37   John gets to keep all of his money.

00:49:39   And so we want John to have spent a ridiculous amount

00:49:43   of money on his Twitter client.

00:49:44   - So I can say it's like the second most expensive

00:49:46   application on my computer after Photoshop.

00:49:48   - Exactly, exactly.

00:49:50   We want John's copy of Twitterific to be

00:49:54   this ridiculous investment he has made.

00:49:56   And so please everyone go fund this

00:49:58   so that his pledge will go through.

00:50:00   - It really is just all the money that I would have spent

00:50:01   on a new Mac Pro, it's just being funneled into

00:50:03   from his software, Kickstarters.

00:50:06   Oh my goodness.

00:50:07   All right, moving on.

00:50:10   Let's see what do we have here?

00:50:12   Planet of the Apps, oh God.

00:50:14   - Can we start with, before we start talking about this show

00:50:17   can we start with someone,

00:50:19   maybe we have a lawyer in the room,

00:50:21   how can they get away with calling it Planet of the Apps

00:50:23   when it sounds like Planet of the Apes?

00:50:24   Is there any, does it fall under the parody

00:50:28   where it's referencing a thing but in a joking way?

00:50:32   So it's almost like trade dress.

00:50:35   I don't know. I don't know the legal things about this. It just seems weird to me that

00:50:39   they can get away with Planet of the Apes without paying somebody who has the right

00:50:42   to Planet of the Apes. So follow up for next week. Someone tell me what the deal is.

00:50:46   Yeah, I mean three things. Like A, we aren't trademark lawyers. B, they might have paid

00:50:51   someone to license it. And C, they might just not care and just accept if anybody threatens

00:50:56   them then they will just settle it. Because Apple...

00:50:58   There's the luxury of being Apple and sitting on the top of a mountain of cash so high you

00:51:01   you can't even hear the people yelling at you.

00:51:04   - Exactly, like it's probably--

00:51:05   - We will buy the Planet of the Apes franchise

00:51:08   from Universal or whoever the hell owns it,

00:51:10   you know, when we sneeze

00:51:11   and the money falls out of our pockets.

00:51:12   - Yeah, exactly, and it's probably, I mean,

00:51:14   you know, as amateurs here, it does kind of seem

00:51:17   like it might be considered like generic enough

00:51:21   or clear enough parody or satire

00:51:24   that it might not be a clear cut case

00:51:26   of actual infringement.

00:51:28   - Yeah, the humor angle is the strongest one,

00:51:30   but I'm like, it's not that funny.

00:51:32   - No, it's not.

00:51:33   Apple's not good at being funny.

00:51:35   - I was like, how bad does your pun have to be

00:51:37   before it stops being humor?

00:51:40   - I think one thing that,

00:51:42   I don't wanna bash Apple too much about this,

00:51:45   but I do think that one very clear difference

00:51:48   between Apple now versus Apple under Steve

00:51:51   is that Steve was a cool person.

00:51:54   And not in all ways,

00:51:55   and he knew the ways in which he wasn't cool,

00:51:57   and he kinda played off of them.

00:51:59   But he was fundamentally a pretty cool person

00:52:02   to the people who follow Apple and to Apple customers.

00:52:05   And I don't think anybody at Apple now is cool.

00:52:09   At least in the senior leadership.

00:52:11   But I'm not sure they know that.

00:52:13   It actually kind of seems like they don't know that

00:52:15   and are actually under the opposite impression.

00:52:17   - CFED is cool, come on.

00:52:20   What is not cool about CFED? - No, no, no.

00:52:21   CFED is, he is like the dad joke,

00:52:24   but he knows that and he plays that.

00:52:26   So he actually does a pretty good job of managing that.

00:52:29   but he's not much in the public eye.

00:52:32   I mean, I get like, I don't know,

00:52:34   like Tim, I think is profoundly deeply uncool,

00:52:38   but is under the opposite impression.

00:52:41   - Ah.

00:52:42   - He doesn't think he's cool.

00:52:43   - Yeah, I agree.

00:52:44   - He's just, he's comfortable zone skin.

00:52:46   You're thinking of Eddie Q.

00:52:47   Who thinks he's cool?

00:52:48   - Well, no, Eddie's a whole different level.

00:52:51   (laughing)

00:52:52   But yeah, I mean, I wish, like basically Apple today

00:52:58   is run by a bunch of middle-aged white men,

00:53:02   and it seems like that is showing a lot recently,

00:53:07   and it's unfortunate, and that isn't to say

00:53:11   that they can't still make good stuff,

00:53:12   but I think some of their decisions are a little odd

00:53:16   in context, but anyway.

00:53:19   - Well, before we get off the name, though,

00:53:22   just to defend, or the opposite,

00:53:25   to condemn Steve Jobs' coolness,

00:53:27   Remember that he wanted to call the iMac "Mac Man."

00:53:31   We all have bad days.

00:53:32   Remember that.

00:53:33   Talked out of it by advertising executives.

00:53:35   "Mac Man."

00:53:36   I believe my memory is correct in that.

00:53:38   Someone can Google and correct me if I'm screwing it up.

00:53:40   But thank goodness for iMac.

00:53:42   To be fair, that was a long time ago.

00:53:44   I know, but it's just like name and taste.

00:53:47   And Steve wasn't as cool back then.

00:53:50   In the mid '90s, Steve wasn't as cool.

00:53:53   1998, iMac.

00:53:55   (laughs)

00:53:57   Anyway, Mac man.

00:53:58   All right, so there was a trailer for Apple,

00:54:02   well really I guess Apple Music's TV show.

00:54:05   So the Apple Music TV show,

00:54:07   I don't know, it's a little weird.

00:54:08   - It's like music television.

00:54:09   - Yeah, I see what you did there.

00:54:11   So it's called Planet of the Apps.

00:54:14   I only saw the trailer once,

00:54:15   it's like two and a half minutes.

00:54:17   So at this point, if you're listening to the show,

00:54:19   feel free to pause and watch it.

00:54:20   So I have mixed feelings about this.

00:54:24   It is clearly, unequivocally not a show meant for the three of us.

00:54:30   And that's okay.

00:54:31   Like, in and of itself, that's not a bad thing.

00:54:34   The idea is, if I understand this right, a bunch of app developers or potential app developers

00:54:41   come in and do an escalator pitch.

00:54:44   So they are on an escalator, and as the escalator is moving down, they have like 60 seconds

00:54:50   to make a pitch to will.i.am, Gwyneth Paltrow, Jessica Alba, and Gary Vaynerchuk, who I guess

00:54:57   at that point get to choose if they want to tutor any of these teams, and then I guess

00:55:03   there's a competition at the end. And if you win, among other things, you get special placement

00:55:08   in the app store, which most people would probably give an appendage to get.

00:55:12   - Wait, can I first start out with the escalator pitch thing?

00:55:17   - Yeah.

00:55:19   - As a brief diversion here?

00:55:20   Okay, so I have a question.

00:55:21   Now obviously, I have never pitched to a VC.

00:55:24   I've been around VCs, I've been in board meetings with VCs,

00:55:26   I've interacted with a lot of VCs,

00:55:28   but I've never actually pitched to one.

00:55:29   That was always done by David

00:55:31   and other people who were around me.

00:55:33   That being said, I'm familiar with the concept

00:55:37   of the elevator pitch, where the idea is,

00:55:39   you're in an elevator with a VC and you only have,

00:55:41   until you only have the elevator ride

00:55:43   to pitch them on your idea,

00:55:44   and then you gotta convince them

00:55:45   in this short amount of time

00:55:46   and it's supposed to be like a minute

00:55:47   or something like that.

00:55:49   However, how did this come about?

00:55:50   Because Silicon Valley has very few tall buildings.

00:55:54   - That's an interesting point.

00:55:56   - There aren't that many elevators there to begin with,

00:55:58   and the ones that are there

00:55:59   are probably going over like three floors.

00:56:01   So the elevator ride--

00:56:02   - Yeah, but they are lazy people,

00:56:03   and they have elevators in two-story buildings.

00:56:05   - But still, that's not like a one-minute pitch,

00:56:07   it's like an eight-second pitch.

00:56:09   Like, where did this idea come about?

00:56:12   Maybe in New York, taller buildings.

00:56:14   But Silicon Valley money has always been West Coast VCs.

00:56:17   There are very, very few New York VCs that actually fund Silicon Valley or tech projects.

00:56:22   I think elevator pitch predates Silicon Valley, but going back to Steve Jobs again, remember

00:56:26   the story about being trapped in an elevator with Steve Jobs and he has enough time to

00:56:29   fire you in there, so for you to say the wrong thing and for him to decide that you're fired.

00:56:34   He was remarkably efficient.

00:56:35   Wow.

00:56:36   I think elevator pitch predates Silicon Valley, but if not like it's metaphorical more than it is actual

00:56:43   But you but you got to the heart of it

00:56:44   The idea is that if you have to sum up your idea in a short amount of time

00:56:48   You should be able to say something that's compelling instead of like just rambling on for 20 minutes and people not knowing what you're selling

00:56:53   You need to have an elevator pitch and people in the in the chat room are like don't you mean?

00:56:57   When we said escalator pitch, did you misspeak? Did you mean elevator pitch? No, it's like Planet of the Apps

00:57:04   Get it apps instead of apes

00:57:06   Elevator pitch, but you see what we did there as someone who we all know would say they took it and they turned it

00:57:13   It's not an elevator pitch

00:57:15   It's an escalator picture makes even less sense because were you to a cost somebody on an escalator?

00:57:20   That would be super weird because you wouldn't even be facing them

00:57:22   You'd be there above them or below them and second thing is an escalator ride

00:57:26   It's even less time than an elevator ride

00:57:28   so it is it is ill-conceived in every possible way except for one and that one way is

00:57:34   Is that an idea that fits in with a reality show? Answer, yes.

00:57:37   Well, and it's easier to film an escalator moving towards the host,

00:57:41   then it, or the VCs, whatever,

00:57:44   than it is an elevator moving up from the basement.

00:57:47   And I guess the four, like, sponsors, hosts, whatever,

00:57:51   are looking at a video feed until they arrive,

00:57:54   until the participants arrive. Like, it's just weird.

00:57:56   Anyway, the name elevator pitch reflects the idea

00:57:59   that it should be possible to deliver the summary

00:58:01   in the time span of an elevator ride,

00:58:03   or approximately 30 seconds to two minutes, and is widely credited to Eileen Rosenzweig

00:58:08   and Michael Caruso while he was an editor for Vanity Fair for its origins. So presumably this

00:58:15   well predates Silicon Valley. So believe it or not, Silicon Valley, the world did not always

00:58:20   revolve around you, truth be told. So yeah, so this show, so I don't intrinsically have anything

00:58:27   against reality shows. In fact, I watched some truly and utterly atrociously

00:58:33   terrible reality shows. Not often competitions, but be that as it may, I

00:58:36   have watched seasons of American Idol in the past. So I have seen my fair share of

00:58:42   reality shows. I've seen The Voice many times. I have one reality show friend.

00:58:46   Yeah, right, exactly. This show does not speak to me at all, and I find it

00:58:53   to be fairly preposterous, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing because I don't think

00:59:00   this show is really for me. Because it's too—I know too much about how the sausage is made,

00:59:07   and this is not a show about how the sausage is made, despite how they're pitching it.

00:59:10   It's a show about making sausage-making glamorous, and my, have I killed this analogy, but be

00:59:16   that as it may.

00:59:17   Now I don't like the sausage anymore. Thanks a lot.

00:59:19   Yeah, right? So, I mean, I can't watch it, I presume, because I do not pay for Apple

00:59:26   Music. I never have. I used it for the free trial and then never paid for it. I would

00:59:32   probably watch it if I could for an episode or two, just to see what I thought. I don't

00:59:38   expect I would like it, and I don't think that's a problem. Marco, what do you think?

00:59:43   - I mean, obviously I've had similar reactions

00:59:47   to most programmers looking at this,

00:59:49   of just like, wow, this kinda looks awful from the trailer.

00:59:54   It is very clear that it's really meant

00:59:56   as a rip-off of Shark Tank,

00:59:58   and whatever the original version of Shark Tank

00:59:59   was called somewhere else, probably in Europe,

01:00:01   'cause we steal all their TV and rename it,

01:00:02   and everyone thinks we invented it.

01:00:04   But it might be an entertaining show.

01:00:07   What was that, not Freaks and Geeks, Beauty and the Geek?

01:00:13   like it was like this horrible dating reality show.

01:00:16   - Oh, I think I saw that and it was delightful.

01:00:18   It was terrible, but it was delightful.

01:00:20   - Yeah, and like as a geek watching that,

01:00:23   you saw all the ridiculous holes in the show,

01:00:26   but it was still fun to watch

01:00:28   as like a fun garbage TV show.

01:00:31   And this could probably be that too

01:00:32   for anybody who is remotely familiar

01:00:35   with software development and building apps

01:00:38   and building businesses.

01:00:39   This might be that kind of thing too.

01:00:40   It might be a fun garbage watch.

01:00:42   It's fine, you know.

01:00:43   I think a lot of people are reading a lot into this.

01:00:45   I wouldn't read much into this.

01:00:48   There's a lot of arguments against it

01:00:50   that Apple maybe shouldn't be doing this

01:00:51   or that it's going to cast app development in a bad light

01:00:54   or it's gonna distort people's view on apps

01:00:57   and I think most of those things are both true

01:01:01   on some level but not a big deal in reality

01:01:04   in all likelihood.

01:01:05   Like they're not gonna be enough of an effect

01:01:07   on anything to really matter because chances are

01:01:09   this is going to go not very far.

01:01:12   It's gonna be watched by not that many people

01:01:14   and it's gonna make not that big of a cultural impact

01:01:16   of any sort.

01:01:18   So it's probably just gonna be fun garbage TV

01:01:20   for some people to watch.

01:01:21   I think it's weird that it's in the music app everywhere

01:01:23   and it's only on Apple Music.

01:01:25   A lot of people are gonna have trouble ever even knowing

01:01:27   it exists as a result.

01:01:28   Those people who do know it exists

01:01:29   are gonna have trouble finding it.

01:01:31   So that's all going to hurt viewership probably.

01:01:34   But anyway, the actual show itself,

01:01:38   It's a garbage reality TV show.

01:01:41   The hosts of it have, I think, limited knowledge

01:01:46   about the reality of app building.

01:01:49   Gary Vaynerchuk I like a lot.

01:01:51   I think he really, he is the person on the show

01:01:55   that I'm most interested to see.

01:01:57   I followed his work back in the day.

01:01:59   I met him a couple times, he's super nice.

01:02:01   He is the real deal, he knows what he's talking about.

01:02:04   Not necessarily in app development as far as I know,

01:02:08   but he's more of a business consultant.

01:02:10   But that's, what I wanted to get to though is that

01:02:13   that's kind of more what the show is about.

01:02:16   It's called Planet of the Apps and it's focused on apps

01:02:19   'cause Apple's funding it and making it and promoting it

01:02:23   'cause Apple wants it to be all about them

01:02:24   and the world that they think they created.

01:02:26   So of course they're focusing the marketing

01:02:28   and the naming and everything else on apps.

01:02:30   And all the app developers are saying,

01:02:32   this is crazy 'cause this isn't how apps are made,

01:02:35   but the show really isn't about apps.

01:02:38   It's like if the show was called Planet of the Websites.

01:02:42   And you know, it's like the website is like

01:02:45   an interface to the business.

01:02:47   And you don't go around saying,

01:02:50   hey, I'm making a new website.

01:02:52   Like, no.

01:02:53   - You did in 1993, let me tell ya.

01:02:56   - Well, yeah, but the point is like,

01:02:59   for the types of things that most people launch today

01:03:02   that would be entertaining to watch at all,

01:03:04   No one is gonna watch a show about you making

01:03:07   a bespoke notes taking app or something like that.

01:03:10   They're gonna watch a show that's kinda like Shark Tank

01:03:13   or America's Got Talent or stuff like that.

01:03:15   That's what people actually wanna watch

01:03:17   these garbage reality shows for.

01:03:18   And so they wanna hear the big business idea.

01:03:22   'Cause this is a show, I made a tweet about it,

01:03:24   this is kinda like a show for idea people,

01:03:26   those people who always accost app developers

01:03:28   at gatherings and stuff, and like,

01:03:30   I have this great idea for an app.

01:03:32   Will you not tell anybody?

01:03:34   you can't steal it, you gotta go 50/50 with me,

01:03:36   I'll be the idea guy, you make the app, okay,

01:03:39   here's my idea, and they tell you some ridiculous idea

01:03:42   that is usually impossible and/or terrible,

01:03:46   this show is for those people to watch

01:03:49   kind of like aspirationally, 'cause they think

01:03:51   that could be them someday, that's who this is actually for,

01:03:53   or people like us who just want garbage TV

01:03:55   to watch sometimes.

01:03:56   But the point is, this is not going to reflect

01:04:00   what it's like to be an indie app developer,

01:04:02   because not only do people not really wanna watch that,

01:04:06   but most app development isn't in the app developers.

01:04:09   Most app development is in-house employees

01:04:13   or contractors for bigger businesses,

01:04:16   where the app is not-- - Right.

01:04:17   - Exactly, the app itself is not the business.

01:04:21   The app is just an interface to the business,

01:04:23   in the same way that 10 years ago,

01:04:25   the website was the interface to most businesses

01:04:28   that were made in our industry, right?

01:04:30   So we want this to be some other thing,

01:04:33   like people like us who are complaining,

01:04:35   we want it to be this beautiful story

01:04:37   about app developers and it's just not gonna be that.

01:04:41   It's gonna be the exact same thing

01:04:44   that would have been 10, 12 years ago,

01:04:48   people pitching VCs about ideas that were based on web apps

01:04:51   and web services and social networks.

01:04:53   It's gonna just be that,

01:04:57   but where the interface to it happens to be an app

01:05:00   in the app store.

01:05:02   It's not gonna be great, you know, academically.

01:05:05   It's not gonna be a high quality TV,

01:05:07   but I don't think it's going to meaningfully impact

01:05:10   the app business or people's perception of it

01:05:14   for lots of reasons, not least of which,

01:05:15   I don't think many people watch it,

01:05:17   but also, just as I said,

01:05:18   I don't think it really has much bearing

01:05:21   on what most of us actually do,

01:05:23   but I also think it doesn't really purport to,

01:05:25   because what most of us really do,

01:05:27   or what we think we wanna do with indie app development,

01:05:30   is such a very, very tiny sliver

01:05:31   of the world of app development as a whole.

01:05:35   - Thinking back to when we first talked about this,

01:05:37   and we had this, you know,

01:05:38   there was so little information like Apple's making a show

01:05:41   about app development, something, something,

01:05:43   and then a few celebrity names attached to it.

01:05:45   And we had that brief moment where we could talk

01:05:49   about the possibility of this being a show

01:05:52   that is actually about app development,

01:05:53   and I think at the time we said,

01:05:54   but they can't make that interesting

01:05:56   'cause no one wants to see someone sitting there encoding.

01:05:57   Like that's not gonna be on the show, right?

01:05:59   But still, we were entertaining the idea

01:06:03   of a show about app development,

01:06:04   but of course, like when the show comes out,

01:06:06   it's not about app development, as Marco pointed out.

01:06:08   It is basically like a subset of Shark Tank.

01:06:11   Imagine Shark Tank, except the only thing you can pitch

01:06:14   are businesses that are represented by an application.

01:06:18   - You're making your own bad pitch.

01:06:20   - Right, well that's what it is.

01:06:21   - Okay, I have this great idea for a show.

01:06:23   Are you ready?

01:06:24   I'll be the idea guy, you make the entire show, okay?

01:06:26   It's like Shark Tank, but for apps.

01:06:28   - Yeah, but only apps.

01:06:30   Like if your business isn't like,

01:06:33   like Instagram would be a business represented by an app,

01:06:36   but all sorts of things would be like,

01:06:37   is the app the sort of standard bearer for your business?

01:06:40   Is that how people deal with your business?

01:06:42   Is it through an app?

01:06:43   Then you're fine.

01:06:44   But if you have any other business idea,

01:06:46   no, sorry, you gotta go in Shark Tank, right?

01:06:48   So it's a narrow slice thing.

01:06:49   And presumably Apple does this,

01:06:51   because hey, they're the app company,

01:06:53   so there's some kind of synergy there, but this brings up a tweet that our friend Cable

01:06:57   Sasser from Panic posted today or yesterday, I forget.

01:07:01   He was arguing with Gruber about something and his reply was, "You can't just say, 'Well,

01:07:08   that's reality TV.'"

01:07:11   He's using "Well, that's reality TV" as a verb, so I'm going to try to read this in

01:07:15   the way that it says, "You can't quote 'Well, that's reality TV' a thing from Apple."

01:07:20   Does that sentence make sense to people?

01:07:21   That's what he wrote.

01:07:22   hard here. Not an actor. It's from Apple. The experts of good taste now get a free pass

01:07:27   for junk? Like the idea is you can't just say, "Oh, well, it's reality to you," or whatever.

01:07:31   Because it's from Apple, we have some expectations of taste, which, you know, planet of the apps,

01:07:37   perhaps not getting off on the right foot right from the title. When I saw this tweet,

01:07:41   I was thinking like, we talked in past shows about Apple getting into the content market,

01:07:46   and I still think that makes sense because if they are going to try to compete with the

01:07:50   to Netflix and Amazon and stuff,

01:07:52   and Netflix and Amazon are doing original content,

01:07:55   Apple should be doing original content too.

01:07:57   But the thing about content is,

01:08:01   if you're doing original content well,

01:08:03   not saying you can't, but probably you shouldn't

01:08:07   imbue that content with any of the sensibilities

01:08:11   from your company, which sounds like,

01:08:12   well, isn't that Apple's whole thing?

01:08:13   Isn't everything they do imbued

01:08:14   with the sensibility of Apple?

01:08:16   But content is different.

01:08:18   There is nothing particularly about Stranger Things or Man in a High Castle that makes me think of Netflix or Amazon.

01:08:25   Like there's none of their corporate DNA in those shows.

01:08:28   Creative content, especially entertainment, has to be true to its genre.

01:08:32   So if it's a sci-fi show, make a good sci-fi show.

01:08:36   If it is a family drama, make a good family drama.

01:08:39   If it's a wacky comedy, make a good wacky comedy.

01:08:41   It doesn't matter how well wacky comedy, family drama, or sci-fi fit with your corporate branding.

01:08:46   And it's weird because Amazon and Netflix and Apple are these tech-based companies that

01:08:51   do fairly different things with some overlap, but none of them have anything to do with

01:08:55   creativity.

01:08:56   But I think Netflix and Amazon have shown, if you get the right people involved, basically

01:09:01   like, what is being supplied by Netflix and Amazon?

01:09:04   Obviously, there's a venue for viewing.

01:09:06   But the most important thing is money.

01:09:08   Here you go, people who know how to get creative things created by creative people.

01:09:13   Here's a bucket of money.

01:09:14   Can you make a good show and out pops House of the Cards?

01:09:17   Answer yes if you throw enough money at it and you hire the right people.

01:09:20   Netflix a company that delivers plastic discs and streaming video to people's houses, you

01:09:26   know, used to plastic discs, can make good content.

01:09:30   And same thing with Amazon, the place that you buy stuff from, they deliver for you in

01:09:34   boxes can make original content.

01:09:37   So if Apple has decided, and you can debate the merits of this, that they're going to

01:09:42   make a reality show. I think we're getting a little bit confused by the fact that it

01:09:47   involves apps. The bottom line is, all right, if you're going to make a reality show, what

01:09:51   are reality shows like and can you make a good one? And I'm going to defend reality

01:09:55   shows as a long time viewer of reality shows from the very beginning. I still watch and

01:10:01   enjoy many of them. That there is such a thing as a good reality show and a bad reality show.

01:10:06   Oh yeah. But within the genre, like there is a genre. And if you look at this trailer,

01:10:11   you go, that's a reality show.

01:10:13   Like it is clearly recognizable as a reality show.

01:10:16   And I think it could be a good reality show if done well,

01:10:21   because it involves people with a skill

01:10:26   and an ambition and a dream or whatever.

01:10:30   And they are going to, you know,

01:10:32   in all these scenarios where you have the panel of experts

01:10:34   has to pick among them, that can be very bad,

01:10:36   or it can be good where they're trying to encourage people

01:10:40   after the initial like let's make fun of the other people

01:10:42   who are really bad, you know,

01:10:44   sort of American Idol type thing like that.

01:10:45   I feel like it's a bad aspect of it.

01:10:46   But either way, once you get into the human story

01:10:49   of like I want to do this thing,

01:10:51   you don't need to know what the details of this struggle are.

01:10:54   This won't be about application development probably.

01:10:56   It'll mostly be about starting a new business

01:10:58   and business ideas.

01:10:59   And in the end, unlike for example, American Idol,

01:11:02   in the end, there is much less ability

01:11:05   to make these people into superstars.

01:11:06   I mean, even American Idol had trouble eventually,

01:11:08   Like Kelly Clarkson had a reasonable expectation that if she won this reality show, she would

01:11:15   have a viable recording career.

01:11:17   A, because the people picking her are going to pick people based on talent, and B, because

01:11:22   you get an in with the recording industry, which is way more monolithic and actually

01:11:27   back then had even more power than it does today, to make you a star because they control

01:11:32   distribution and so on and so forth, much less so than they used to in the old days,

01:11:36   but still it was a thing.

01:11:37   But for the App Show, I don't particularly trust that the four people on the expert panel

01:11:44   have any idea what is going to be a successful app beyond any four random people that you

01:11:49   picked in the tech industry.

01:11:50   And furthermore, I don't particularly think that even Apple itself, by featuring you in

01:11:54   the App Store and heavily pushing you, is going to turn your idea into a viable business

01:11:59   for the long term.

01:12:01   But I think none of that matters for reality shows, because at this point, we are perfectly

01:12:06   willing to accept that winning a reality show is its own reward. And whatever they promise

01:12:11   you, we go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll be rich and famous forever, or I'll forget you by

01:12:14   next season." Because that's not what it's about. It's an entertainment program. And

01:12:18   you want, and like I said, it can be done badly and exploitively, or it can be done

01:12:21   in a way that people enjoy, where you get to see plain old human drama and people with

01:12:25   skills trying to apply those skills in a challenging situation. Hopefully the judges and the sponsors

01:12:30   are supportive and encouraging. And it is a positive type of program with good production

01:12:35   values that treats its contestants well, that has smart, funny, and interesting and charming

01:12:40   judges, I believe a good reality show is possible.

01:12:43   I don't know whether this will be one, but I think the fact that this reality show involves

01:12:47   apps is a distraction and a thing that skews people's thinking about it.

01:12:53   I guess the only thing you really debate is should the first major piece of original content

01:12:57   that Apple made, not counting Carpool Karaoke, which was an existing franchise, should it

01:13:01   be a reality show?

01:13:02   Maybe, maybe not, but again, I don't think by judging it based on that you could say

01:13:07   you shouldn't be trying to figure out how well does reality show fit with Apple's ethos.

01:13:12   That's not the question at all. The question is, are reality shows popular? Yes, they are

01:13:16   popular. So if you were picking a genre, and it's also different than what other people

01:13:20   do, they're not doing a sci-fi, a retro sci-fi show, or a show based on, you know, sci-fi

01:13:29   books from a well-known author, right? That has been well-trod territory. They're doing

01:13:34   a reality show as their first thing, which is a little bit different. They're not doing

01:13:36   a superhero thing or anything like that. So I think that's a reasonable choice. And at

01:13:40   some point, someone convinced them if we are doing a reality show, there's a little bit

01:13:43   of synergy if we do it on apps. But I'm willing to give this show all the benefit of the doubt,

01:13:49   even though I certainly won't watch it and I'm not interested in it. I don't watch Shark

01:13:52   Tank either. All the benefit of the doubt. But what I would say is, if Apple is serious

01:13:57   about content, I hope it doesn't only do reality shows because there's no reason Apple can't

01:14:03   do original content in any genre that it wants because it has that same thing that Amazon

01:14:07   and Netflix have, mountains of money.

01:14:10   And if they are wise and hire the right peoples and you throw mountains of money at them,

01:14:14   they can make a good video content in any genre that you can imagine.

01:14:19   And I love that that's happening with Amazon and Netflix and I would like that for that

01:14:22   to happen with Apple because what the hell else are they going to do with their money

01:14:24   if they're not making a car or whatever?

01:14:27   So I'm all for it, even if it is weirdly connected with Apple Music, and even if I will never

01:14:31   ever watch this show.

01:14:34   (laughs)

01:14:35   Yeah, I mean, I understand why everyone was perturbed about it, and I understand that

01:14:40   it's like, "Oh, this is a distraction!"

01:14:42   And, eh, maybe for some of Apple, but, I mean, for the developers that are doing the sorts

01:14:51   of things that the three of us really care about, I don't think it's much of a distraction

01:14:55   at all.

01:14:56   And it's not like, the people who are making this show

01:15:00   were not taking off new Mac Pro hardware to make this show.

01:15:03   - Yeah, exactly.

01:15:04   - Yeah, the Mac Pro hardware team

01:15:06   is busily assembling the escalator.

01:15:08   - Right, exactly.

01:15:09   - And I don't even think it's a distraction

01:15:10   because Apple is in the TV connected box business

01:15:13   and they're in the streaming video business.

01:15:16   Like they have been, you know,

01:15:18   this is not a new venture where they will sell you

01:15:20   or rent you movies and video,

01:15:22   and everybody else who's in that business

01:15:23   is doing original content.

01:15:25   I think that's been shown to be a model that works.

01:15:27   So they are late comers to this.

01:15:28   All they are doing is continuing to compete

01:15:30   in a market they were already in.

01:15:32   It's not like, why are you making TV shows?

01:15:33   You're distracted.

01:15:34   No, they were already in that market.

01:15:36   They've been selling Apple TVs of various kinds

01:15:38   for a long time.

01:15:39   They've been selling video of the iTunes store

01:15:40   for a long time.

01:15:41   That's a market they're in.

01:15:42   They're just competing in it.

01:15:43   People should be encouraging them.

01:15:44   Like we're encouraging them to compete

01:15:45   in the personal computer market.

01:15:47   Yes, by all means, look at what your competitor is doing

01:15:49   and try to make your product more valuable and desirable.

01:15:52   Good job, not a distraction at all.

01:15:54   (upbeat music)

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01:18:09   (upbeat music)

01:18:12   - I don't even know how to pronounce this.

01:18:14   Cavo, Cave-o?

01:18:16   Kaaavvooooo. That's it. That's exactly how you have to say it. Oh, alright, good. I'm

01:18:22   glad I got it in the last try. It's "krat-EK-ery." Nicely done. Nicely done. I always feel bad

01:18:30   about that and primer. You guys don't, I don't know, you don't listen to me being

01:18:34   harmful enough, but you know, you don't know the movie either, do you? God, I'm

01:18:37   aware of it existing. Hey! I'm gonna take that as a victory. Is that the one with the

01:18:42   Time-traveling one with the box like the refrigerator sized box. Yes. Yeah. I have seen that actually I know shit

01:18:48   I agree. That's it anyway the title that movie is PRIMER and the person who made that movie

01:18:55   initially

01:18:57   Expected people and preferred people to pronounce it primer

01:18:59   No

01:19:00   But eventually gave up because everybody everybody who saw that word pronounced it primer

01:19:05   Which is an alternate pronunciation of that word with a different meaning

01:19:09   And so the creator of the mood he had to go and Sir tekari same situation

01:19:14   I believe the original logo had a bar over the e to try to tell you what to long e say stratekari

01:19:20   Right, that's correct. But that didn't work and the public has spoken and now the creator of that site says stratekari

01:19:28   Truth. Sorry Ben Thompson. Anyway, I have no idea what this is about. So tell me about

01:19:33   kahvoo

01:19:35   Lot of people were tweeting this

01:19:37   With the idea that this is the omnivorous box that I talked about on hypercritical and earlier on earlier episodes of ATP

01:19:45   It's such an old idea from like 2011 or whatever the hell hypercritical was

01:19:49   That was back when I was complaining a lot about TiVo and what I wanted was someone to make a box

01:19:55   It would be nice if it was Apple that

01:19:57   Sat on my TV and had a whole bunch of inputs

01:20:01   It took video from all the places that I pay for stuff.

01:20:04   Back in 2011, I was like, "Hey, I pay for cable, and I also pay for Netflix, and I also

01:20:08   have a Blu-ray player or a PlayStation."

01:20:11   All these different places that I can get video into my TV.

01:20:15   I would like all those inputs to go into this thing that I called an "omnivorous box" because

01:20:19   it would consume anything.

01:20:22   And then I wanted one cable coming out of an omnivorous box into my television and one

01:20:27   remote that controlled the omnivorous box and I would be able to, through a single interface,

01:20:33   have access to all the video that I pay for.

01:20:35   I pay for a cable subscription, cable has TV shows, they come on, my TiVo records them,

01:20:40   I want access to all those shows, both live and recorded.

01:20:43   I pay for Netflix and if there's a Netflix client either on my television or on the omnivorous

01:20:48   box yourself or on an Apple TV or something, I want to be able to see that stuff.

01:20:52   I have a Plex server running, or a PS3 media server back then,

01:20:57   and that can play files from a hard drive

01:20:59   somewhere in my basement.

01:21:00   I want to be able to watch that kind as well.

01:21:01   And I want it to be one big unified interface.

01:21:04   So when I look through the shows available for me to watch,

01:21:07   it does not express to me in any way

01:21:08   where this stuff comes from.

01:21:10   It is just like, yes, this video comes

01:21:12   from many different sources,

01:21:13   but I give you a unified interface to it.

01:21:14   It's just a series of things that you can watch,

01:21:17   things that might come out in the future,

01:21:19   things that have come on in the past,

01:21:21   things that you can stream right now, just one big continuous clean interface.

01:21:25   And that is a super hard problem to solve because all of those people who distribute

01:21:29   that content, cable companies, Netflix, even like the PS3 media server people, do not want

01:21:34   you to make that box.

01:21:35   They want you to use their box and their remote and all that other stuff, especially cable

01:21:39   companies, that making that box would be famously difficult.

01:21:44   Many companies tried.

01:21:45   Google gave it probably the best run with its absurd Google TV thing with that crazy

01:21:50   remote remember that?

01:21:51   >> Yup.

01:21:52   >> That was like two Google TVs ago, I forget which thing called Google TV was.

01:21:55   >> Oh yeah.

01:21:56   >> Remember that?

01:21:57   >> That was one that Eric Schmidt said was going to be in every TV, right?

01:21:59   >> No, that was the second one.

01:22:00   This was the one before that.

01:22:02   >> Yeah.

01:22:03   Anyway, it's a really hard problem both technically, because how would you even solve that technical

01:22:07   problem, and business-wise, because everybody whose input is going into your Unnervous Box

01:22:12   does not want people to get their content through your Unnervous Box and they will fight

01:22:16   you on it.

01:22:17   They will make it so your box stops working on purpose because they don't want you to be the middleman.

01:22:23   It's like, no, they don't want that at all.

01:22:25   And so no one ever did make that box.

01:22:26   TiVo came the closest because TiVo takes the cable input because of CableCard, which is a thing that happened when there was a brief moment of semi-sanity in our lawmaking institutions in this country that allowed third party products to accept cable signals with some caveats.

01:22:41   So that's why I can even use a TiVo and why I don't have to have a cable box.

01:22:45   so we could get cable television and record that,

01:22:48   and then eventually TiVo added some fairly grim

01:22:51   streaming video clients to their platform

01:22:53   so you can watch Netflix through your TiVo

01:22:55   and Amazon through your TiVo and all,

01:22:56   and I think it was a Plex client, I forget.

01:22:58   Anyway, not quite omnivorous

01:23:00   because you can't watch iTunes content through there

01:23:03   and you can't watch my Blu-ray player through there

01:23:05   and all sorts of other stuff like that.

01:23:07   So omnivorous box never came to be.

01:23:09   Enter Cabo with two As and no bar over any of them.

01:23:13   This is a set-top box that takes a whole bunch of HDMI inputs and has one output.

01:23:18   And it tries to do something like what I described.

01:23:23   You have one CAVO remote, you use that remote, and with it you can see all the video that

01:23:29   is available on all the different devices that are plugged into it.

01:23:32   And you can watch video from any of them.

01:23:36   It is not, I think, really an omnivorous box because one of my requirements for omnivorous

01:23:40   box is it provides one interface that doesn't make you have to be aware of where stuff comes

01:23:47   from.

01:23:48   And one of Cabo's primary interfaces is a series of boxes that say Roku, PS4, Amazon,

01:23:54   Apple TV, DirecTV.

01:23:57   Like when I first saw it, I thought, "This is a glorified HDMI switcher."

01:24:01   It's like, "Great, all your HDMI things go into one box, and then out of that box, it

01:24:07   connects to your television, and then when you turn it on with the one remote, you can

01:24:10   pick which thing you want to do and then you just get the interface to that thing.

01:24:12   That's not quite how it works.

01:24:13   We'll link in the show notes to this video from The Verge, which is very long, kind of

01:24:17   boring, but just scrub through it until you see them start actually using the device of

01:24:21   the creators of this thing talking to... who are they talking to?

01:24:24   Walt Mossberg, I recognize because of his silly beard, and someone else.

01:24:33   And they give demos of the product and it tries to do more than that.

01:24:36   It tries to give you an interface to all of the things that are available on all of the

01:24:38   devices.

01:24:39   pretty to look at, but it will try to say, "Hey, here are the shows available for you

01:24:44   to watch," without expressing to you where they are from.

01:24:48   It has Amazon Echo integration, so they keep doing this demo of, like, you know, "Watch

01:24:53   Stranger Things," and you have, like, a preference list of, like, when I say "Watch Stranger

01:24:57   Things," and you determine that Stranger Things is a show that's on Netflix, and I have three

01:25:01   boxes connected that can all do Netflix, I want you to prefer to use the Apple TV for

01:25:05   Netflix for whatever reason.

01:25:07   So it will start playing Stranger Things from Netflix through the Apple TV.

01:25:11   If you say Watchmen on the High Castle, it will determine that that is only on Amazon

01:25:16   and you have an Amazon streaming thing connected somewhere, and so it will start playing it

01:25:20   from that for you.

01:25:21   So the voice control interface is like, you know, one level up from what each of these

01:25:24   devices do individually.

01:25:26   Same thing with the remote.

01:25:27   The remote, you're controlling the CaboBox, the CaboBox is controlling the inputs.

01:25:33   I wonder how they're doing the unified interface.

01:25:36   It doesn't look that great.

01:25:37   It's mostly just text.

01:25:39   It's not a particularly rich interface.

01:25:40   If you were to go to the interface to any of these boxes or services, it would look

01:25:43   better and have nice pictures and more metadata and stuff.

01:25:48   But at least they're trying.

01:25:49   I think this box faces the same challenges as a real omnivorous box would in that the

01:25:55   companies that they are sort of trying to insert themselves between the customer and

01:26:01   these other boxes, those boxes aren't going to like that.

01:26:04   And if they don't intentionally break them, they'll accidentally break them, especially

01:26:06   if their means of control involves, I mean, like, are they doing screen scraping?

01:26:11   Are they trying to use APIs, documented or otherwise?

01:26:13   How are they even doing this?

01:26:15   Do they have separate metadata somewhere that's like in the cloud, so it's not actually looking

01:26:22   at the content over the HDMI thing?

01:26:23   So I don't know.

01:26:24   I don't know how they're doing it.

01:26:25   It doesn't look that impressive, but at least they're giving it the old college try.

01:26:33   The most interesting thing about this demo are the things that are probably the least

01:26:40   technically cool in that, you know, calling this a glorified HDMI switch is kind of mean,

01:26:45   but calling it a glorified receiver, less mean.

01:26:49   But if you have a receiver or any other box that takes a whole bunch of HDMI inputs and

01:26:53   sends one output to your television, you know that strangely one of the challenges is, aside

01:26:59   from having a million different remotes and having to switch inputs, that's cumbersome.

01:27:03   So one of the demos they give is, what if someone comes over to your house and they

01:27:07   don't know how to use the 17 remotes that are on your end table, right?

01:27:11   Or even the one Logitech Harmony remote that you have, because that is generally complicated.

01:27:15   And the example they gave in the demo is like, what if someone comes over to your house and

01:27:20   they see you have a PlayStation 4, but they see the controller sitting on the end table,

01:27:24   and they just pick up the PlayStation controller off the end table.

01:27:27   Nothing is, you know, they just come into the room, nothing is turned on.

01:27:29   just pick up the PlayStation controller and turn it on.

01:27:32   Any reasonably good receiver should be able to notice that, hey, I was sitting here and

01:27:38   everything was off, but I noticed that the PlayStation came on and started sending me

01:27:42   video output.

01:27:43   So I am going to, through CEC or some other thing that's supposed to work but doesn't,

01:27:47   turn on your television, switch the input to the, you know, switch my input as the receiver

01:27:52   or whatever I am to the PS4 thing, and so now merely by pressing the PlayStation on

01:27:57   button on the PlayStation controller, there it is on your screen. You don't have to know,

01:28:02   "Oh, if you want to play PlayStation, pick up the receiver remote, switch to input number

01:28:06   two, then turn on the TiVo, or then turn on the PlayStation. Make sure you do it in that

01:28:10   order. If you want to hear it through the receiver speakers, also turn the receiver

01:28:13   on, but if you don't, it'll go through the television, blah, blah, blah." You don't have

01:28:15   to know how to do that. And then if someone comes along and they turn the Roku on, it'll

01:28:20   notice, even though the PlayStation 4 is already on, because you just activated the Roku using

01:28:25   the Roku remote because maybe all you know is the Roku remote, you don't know what the

01:28:27   hell this Cabo thing is, you don't know the PlayStation thing, you see, "Oh, Roku remote,

01:28:30   I know what a Roku is," and you just turn the Roku on, the Cabo box will see it. Well,

01:28:35   even though PlayStation is on, someone just turned the Roku on, so I'm going to switch

01:28:39   to the Roku input and let you control it with the Roku remote. That type of functionality

01:28:44   should be in every decent receiver, and probably is in a lot of decent receivers, but to me,

01:28:49   that was the most impressive because it's like, "Yes, that's how all receivers should

01:28:53   and I'm glad that someone has realized this and tried to build it into a box.

01:28:57   So I start off thinking this is a glorify HDMI switcher receiver and I

01:29:02   ended up thinking this is a really good HDMI switcher slash receiver. Now for the

01:29:08   bad news. The bad news is it's $400. Alright and this $400 does not include

01:29:15   any of the boxes that you connect to it which doesn't a problem because I

01:29:18   already have a million TV boxes but like the idea is you buy this box and it's

01:29:21   like you get nothing it's like it's like buying a Synology with no disks in it

01:29:25   it's like yeah it's there it's ready for you to plug things into but it's no good

01:29:28   to you until you plug inputs into it so $400 and then $100 for every box

01:29:35   depending on what you know I guess the Apple ones are expensive you know $60

01:29:38   for a Chromecast $60 for a cheap Roku $100 for a good one whatever but if you

01:29:44   already have all those boxes and maybe if you don't have a receiver oh and also

01:29:48   Also it's pretty big and it's weird and it's wood and it's probably not going to be available

01:29:52   to consumers until 2018.

01:29:54   So all those caveats.

01:29:55   Besides all that, it's great.

01:29:57   Yeah, they're going to sell 5,000 of them sometime this year.

01:30:01   You can pick three different kinds of wood, three different kinds of ugly wood to be on

01:30:04   top of it.

01:30:05   Oh, now that you tell me that, I'm in.

01:30:07   You're really not doing a great job of selling this, John.

01:30:09   I know, yeah, I don't think this product is really going anywhere, but I was excited by

01:30:13   the idea that someone has tackled some of the very basic problems of this terrible,

01:30:17   terrible television age we live in where we all have way too many pucks or other

01:30:23   kinds of boxes connected to our televisions and very frequently watching

01:30:30   any video content involves switching inputs and possibly also switching

01:30:34   remotes and all the solutions that try to make that easier are bad in some way

01:30:37   including this one but in the absence of a true omnivorous box which can probably

01:30:42   never exist for the same reason OpenDock can probably never exist business

01:30:45   reasons on top of technical reasons equals death.

01:30:51   I like the fact that someone is trying to push the envelope forward and I hope somebody

01:30:56   buys this company and incorporates their good ideas into their own products.

01:31:00   Like TiVo I assume?

01:31:01   No they're – come on.

01:31:04   Come on.

01:31:05   I just want TiVo to stay in business.

01:31:06   They're not buying anybody.

01:31:07   Please TiVo don't waste your money buying these people.

01:31:12   Apple could buy them, make their Apple TV better.

01:31:14   could have made a box like this. Of course they never would, but like the type of the

01:31:17   type of functionality of just like, can we stop people from having to do switch inputs?

01:31:23   That would be good. Like, can it just do what I mean? Can it just notice because I turned

01:31:27   the PlayStation on? I probably want to play with the PlayStation, just switch to that

01:31:29   input automatically. It's nice. Thanks to our three sponsors this week, Eero, Squarespace,

01:31:36   and Pingdom. And we will see you next week.

01:31:38   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:31:45   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:31:48   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:31:51   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:31:56   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:31:59   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:32:02   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:32:07   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:32:11   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:32:16   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:32:20   Auntie Marco Arment

01:32:23   S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S

01:32:28   It's accidental

01:32:31   They didn't mean to

01:32:33   Accidental

01:32:36   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:32:39   - We have an odd note in the show notes.

01:32:44   It says, "John's Mac throws some more RAM."

01:32:49   - With more in parentheses, too.

01:32:51   - Yeah, throws as in there's a failure,

01:32:55   throws as in it ejected it,

01:32:58   it spit it like a loogie across the room.

01:33:01   - Some kind of exception handling.

01:33:03   - We've talked about this before.

01:33:04   That's why this is this is a second the second time this has happened

01:33:07   I think on the run of ATP and I think I used the same language last time the analogy

01:33:11   I'm trying to make here and failing obviously is when a horse throws a shoe. Do you know that expression? Mm-hmm?

01:33:16   Yeah, you know I was raised in Ohio where we had lots of horses. No, I what no

01:33:21   I don't know what that means a horse throws a shoe my understanding

01:33:24   I was not raised with horses either either disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer

01:33:27   You know your horseshoes, you know the little metal bendy u-shaped things you put on those the bottle

01:33:32   Yeah, I know that part at least yeah, and they're attached somehow with like these weird-looking spikes or nails or something

01:33:38   It's scary and I don't understand it anyway

01:33:41   The horse is galloping along those little metal u-shaped things are supposed to say on the bottom of the little feats

01:33:47   but sometimes when they're galloping along one of them goes flying off the foot and that's bad because now your horse has lost its shoe and

01:33:54   It needs it to walk comfortably or whatever the hell horseshoes are for

01:33:58   And it's throwing as in like it could go flying because as the horse is galloping the shoe goes flying

01:34:02   So basically while like doing something strenuous like encoding a video your Mac Pro

01:34:07   Forcefully ejected one of its ram sticks from its slot

01:34:11   That's what I'm hearing or not strenuous as the case may be so my Mac Pro is very old the RAM is also very old

01:34:17   As 2008 Mac Pro now it is good solid eight years old pushing up on nine. I forget when I bought the thing

01:34:26   Throwing some RAM means I have eight sticks of RAM in there and every once in a while

01:34:31   Why don't you stop working and it's like my horse through a shoe my mac pro through some RAM

01:34:38   so I came in the other day and tried to wake my mac pro from sleep and

01:34:41   the fans spun up at the screen did not turn on and the power light on the front of my mac pro was blinking in a

01:34:47   very concerning way and

01:34:49   Unlike later Mac pros including even the 2009, but I don't know how far forward they went

01:34:54   My Mac does not have a little set of red LEDs on the banks of dims to tell you which ones are bad

01:35:01   All I knew is that I had a computer with eight dims of RAM on two daughter cards four on each

01:35:08   That would not boot

01:35:10   It just wouldn't post wouldn't do the chime wouldn't do anything because you know, there's some bad RAM there

01:35:16   And this has happened before multiple times

01:35:18   I think I brought up when Casey had bad RAM that I had a OWC RAM in my thing and that

01:35:23   Despite the fact that my computer is so many years old every time it throws a throw the dim if it's an OWC one

01:35:30   that is the problem I just call them up and they send me a new one and

01:35:33   It would be better if they didn't break but after eight years if it throws a dim and I get a new one for free

01:35:40   I still consider that pretty amazing

01:35:42   In the the age of like, you know two-year warranties and hard drives or whatever

01:35:47   So I had a fun

01:35:49   afternoon of

01:35:52   Unseeding daughter cards or removing dims putting them back in in every valid configuration

01:35:57   To by process of elimination find the pair of them

01:36:01   They have to be in pairs find the match pair of dims

01:36:04   That don't work and even with the pairs all I can tell you is that one of the two doesn't work out or they might

01:36:08   Both be bad so eventually after many many boots, and I'm good at this now many many

01:36:14   Exercises of seeding and unseeding which is actually kind of satisfying with the little clips they have on them and everything and how you shove them

01:36:20   in I

01:36:22   I eventually did find the pair of DIMMs that was bad.

01:36:26   They were OWC DIMMs and they are sending me new ones for free.

01:36:33   So I'm down either 2 gigs or 4 gigs of RAM right now.

01:36:39   Still doing okay, let's see what I've got here.

01:36:41   Fourteen gigs of RAM, so I should have eighteen, so I think I'm down four.

01:36:46   Okay, dear Apple, if you are still listening to this somehow for some reason, please put

01:36:53   this computer out of its misery, give John a new Mac Pro to buy so he can finally stop

01:36:59   using this ancient one.

01:37:01   Please Apple.

01:37:02   The terror that fills my heart when I think, is this the time that it's just like, that

01:37:05   it's just dead, like that the motherboard is dead, you know, that it's just not gonna

01:37:08   boot, right?

01:37:10   Because then I think about like, I would have to buy an iMac or should I just like buy the

01:37:14   the cheapest laptop I can do?

01:37:15   What would I do with all my data?

01:37:17   I just, it's terrifying.

01:37:18   So what, you know, I was afraid,

01:37:21   I got it down to this point where I was like,

01:37:23   maybe it's just not gonna boot

01:37:24   because I got it down to like just two DIMMs, you know,

01:37:27   the two DIMM configuration of the two that I thought

01:37:30   were like the newest and most reliable RAM

01:37:32   and it still wouldn't boot.

01:37:33   And the trick I learned this time is occasionally

01:37:36   you also need to do an SMC reset to make it happy.

01:37:38   Not all the time, but occasionally,

01:37:41   because I was in one RAM configuration

01:37:42   and it would not boot.

01:37:44   And then I did an SMC reset and it did boot

01:37:46   with the same RAM configuration.

01:37:47   And so once I learned that trick,

01:37:48   then that was the easy way to make sure I was,

01:37:51   you know, actually testing the DIMMs.

01:37:53   And I eventually did narrow it down

01:37:55   and found the two that were bad.

01:37:57   So yeah, so this is what I've gotten in my thing.

01:37:59   In one bank, I've got two gig, two gig, four gig, four gig.

01:38:02   And the other bank, I have one gig, one gig, empty, empty.

01:38:05   It's such a motley collection of RAM.

01:38:06   Some of it Apple, some of it purchased from OWC

01:38:09   in like three different shipments.

01:38:11   - And some of it replaced over time.

01:38:14   Yeah. - My word.

01:38:15   - Oh. - Can't kill this machine,

01:38:17   though.

01:38:18   Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'.

01:38:19   - Oh, God. - Please, Apple, please.

01:38:21   Just let Jon replace this, please.

01:38:24   - Meanwhile, it was like, is it gonna be slower

01:38:26   than the Apple Watch by the time I get there?

01:38:28   - Yeah.

01:38:29   By the time the new Mac Pro comes out, if it ever does,

01:38:35   your Mac Pro is probably going to be slower

01:38:37   than every Mac for sale at that time.

01:38:39   - Oh, iOS devices.

01:38:41   - I think the iPhone is already faster than it, isn't it?

01:38:43   - I believe, at least single-threaded,

01:38:45   it passed it I think two generations ago.

01:38:47   Multi-threaded, I think it still hasn't, but it's close.

01:38:50   - Yeah, that's what I'm saying,

01:38:51   I gotta watch for the watch to start lapping me.

01:38:53   - Yeah, I mean, at least if you limited it

01:38:55   just to single-threaded performance,

01:38:57   you're really looking bad compared to all the iOS devices.

01:39:01   - Yeah, but I have more RAM than the iOS devices,

01:39:04   and I have one terabyte of flash storage, so take that iOS.

01:39:07   - Yeah, but their RAM works all the time.

01:39:09   - Ooh, sick burn.

01:39:10   Well, you don't know that until you've used it for eight years.

01:39:13   How's the RAM doing on that iPhone after eight years?

01:39:15   After eight years, the thing won't even turn on when it's not plugged in.

01:39:18   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:39:19   Well, I'm sorry to hear that.

01:39:21   As someone who's lived through RAM problems recently, that is no fun, and I feel bad for

01:39:25   you.

01:39:26   You see how much quicker I diagnosed it and dealt with it?

01:39:27   Rather than, rather than, like, pretending it doesn't exist.

01:39:30   I guess you can't pretend it doesn't exist when your machine doesn't boot, but addressed

01:39:33   immediately.

01:39:35   Problem solved.

01:39:36   And also, like, ODBC wasn't open.

01:39:38   Like their phone line wasn't open.

01:39:39   I just call them and deal with the nice people there and just read them my serial numbers and they're like, okay

01:39:44   We'll send you new RAM

01:39:44   I did it through chat which it worked fine like as their phone lines weren't open

01:39:49   but the chat was but chat I find infuriating like customer support chat because I

01:39:54   Don't know why it takes so long for there to be a response because you're like, hello. My name is blah blah

01:40:00   How can I help you and then I paste in my prepared sentence of what my problem is that is formatted in a way

01:40:06   Formatted in a way that I know there will be no follow-up questions, but it contains all the information

01:40:11   Here's here's the problem. Here's why I think this is the problem

01:40:16   How long does it take you to compose that sense three days I can do it on the fly

01:40:19   It's very easy very concise right, but it contains all the information right

01:40:23   Here's my problem

01:40:25   Here's why I know it's my problem

01:40:26   Putting enough information to let them know they don't need to take me through troubleshooting steps and crap right and here's what I want to

01:40:31   happen, I want you to send me new RAM, right? Like in a nice way, but like all the information

01:40:36   is there. And then you wait literally 10 minutes for the reply. And the reply is, can you give

01:40:43   me the order number, serial number, blah, blah, which of course I have ready for them,

01:40:46   but I didn't want to confuse them within the original message. And I paste that in. 10

01:40:50   more minutes, 10 more minutes of that chat window just off the side. To the credit of

01:40:54   the chat thing in OWC, it has like a chime that lets you know when they reply, because

01:40:57   you can't just be sitting there waiting, like there's not even a typing indicator. Like

01:41:01   just 10 minutes, like, are they just chatting with their friends? Did they go for a coffee break?

01:41:05   They're surely not spending this time typing, especially for the first message. There was

01:41:09   no thing for them to be looking up in the system, "Oh, the system is slow. We're looking up your

01:41:12   order." They didn't even have my order number at that point. I had just told them what the

01:41:16   situation is. "Bad RAM. Want new RAM. Here's how I know it's bad. Don't ask me to blow the

01:41:21   dust out of my socket basically." Like, you know, 10 minute reply on that. And then, so it just,

01:41:27   It took an incredible amount of time, but during that time I was browsing the web and

01:41:31   reading Twitter while waiting for them to reply.

01:41:34   Sometimes I forgot that I was still in the middle of the chat.

01:41:35   You know it's long when you've forgotten, like a little boop goes off, I'm like, "Oh,

01:41:38   that's right, I'm on my customer support chat to get new RAM."

01:41:42   So hopefully that will be on the way soon.

01:41:44   I'm surprised at this point you don't just call them up on the phone and just be like,

01:41:48   "Hey, it's me again."

01:41:49   They're like, "All right, how big?

01:41:51   2 gig?

01:41:52   4 gig?

01:41:53   2?

01:41:54   All right, just send it out."

01:41:55   lifetime or maybe people don't know, don't realize, you buy RAM from OWC, like if it

01:41:59   goes bad they'll just keep replacing it forever.

01:42:01   Like I think that's how it works.

01:42:03   Like you do have to pay to ship your old RAM back to them, but that's cheap, it's very

01:42:06   lightweight right?

01:42:07   So it's a couple bucks to ship old RAM back.

01:42:09   It's why by the way I save the boxes, I never throw out the boxes the new RAM comes in.

01:42:13   I just, you know, I'll just keep getting new RAM forever for this machine.

01:42:18   And it's fine with me, right?

01:42:19   And I think it's like every two or three years it throws a DIMM, and you know, I'm okay with

01:42:24   It's like Casey's BMW every once in a while, you know, 60,000 miles the water pumps gonna go like it's okay

01:42:30   It would be like after two years you just lost two CPUs. Well the CPUs. Yeah, that's what I'm always afraid of

01:42:36   I mean RAM like I could just say I'm always afraid that the slots are gonna go bad like that

01:42:41   But even if that did I can get by with 14 gigs of RAM instead of 18 like I'm okay

01:42:44   I've had such a motley collection of RAMs machine like weird amounts and weird combinations

01:42:50   But as long as I'm as long as I'm in the teens, I'm okay for what I do with this Mac

01:42:54   I'm just trying to predict like, during which year will you stop using this Mac?

01:43:01   When it dies, that will stop me, right? So if it actually dies, what am I going to do?

01:43:06   But if it doesn't die, my current plan is, look, this is the year, wait to WWDC, there's still no Mac Pro, if it's an iMac Pro, either way, like, if there's a Mac Pro, maybe, maybe not.

01:43:16   maybe maybe not but if there is no Mac Pro then I'm getting an iMac and if there's an

01:43:21   iMac Pro I'm getting an iMac Pro so my wife says why don't you just get an iMac now it's

01:43:25   like I'm resigned to the fact that I'm going to buy something that looks for all the world

01:43:28   like a 5k iMac and I'm pretty much okay with that having used her as a lot it's like whatever

01:43:31   if they're not gonna make an iMac Pro anymore what the hell can I do the next best thing

01:43:34   is the 5k I'll be okay with it but I'm not gonna buy it now I have to wait to see at

01:43:40   WWDC what the thing is is there gonna be another Mac Pro is there gonna be a special iMac for

01:43:46   pros either called iMac Pro or not, that's when I make my buying decision.

01:43:50   But the thing of it is, is you had a new Mac Pro, what was it, 15 years ago now, when the

01:43:55   trash can came out?

01:43:57   You had a new Mac Pro and you didn't want that one.

01:43:59   So what makes you think you're going to suddenly decide that this one's okay?

01:44:03   If I had to reconsider, well, the problem with knowing what I know now is I also know

01:44:07   about the reliability issues of that one.

01:44:09   Like when it came out, the reason I didn't buy it was like, well, this doesn't quite

01:44:14   suit my needs.

01:44:15   I don't need that much GPU and the GPUs aren't that great and it's super expensive and so on and so forth, but

01:44:19   all our conversations about that were with the expectation that

01:44:22   I'll wait for the next Mac Pro like when they revise it right like and it wasn't such a crazy assumption

01:44:28   I thought that that would happen

01:44:30   I mean they even did that for the cheese graters even though like the you know

01:44:33   The fake new one for the show was founded on like it was still a revision

01:44:36   It was still like they they changed some stuff. I

01:44:40   None of us I think could have predicted like they would literally not release another version of the machine like ever

01:44:46   Like just no no for not one year two year three like they just won't do it and that was not in my head

01:44:51   So it's like me passing on that Mac Pro

01:44:53   I feel like you know it's the first one like wait for the second revision like kind of like I did with the 5k Mac

01:44:58   I didn't buy the first one like Marco did even though it's a good machine. It was like the second one came out

01:45:02   Okay, this is the one to get seems like it's you know everything settled down. There's no big problems. It's got the p3 screen

01:45:06   That's totally what I was expecting to do with trash can they just never made another one and so, you know, what can you do?

01:45:12   You make any progress in your car decision we heard we had a lot of feedback on that

01:45:19   This for you Casey, please Casey wants a stick shift that was apparently not

01:45:28   Emphasized enough in the past show in the past 18 shows and the entire run of neutral, right?

01:45:34   It's not he hasn't been keeping it a secret, but people keep forgetting

01:45:37   Can they keep forgetting or people say I know you said you wanted the stick shift, but if you considered not a stick shift

01:45:42   Yeah, consider that Casey if you considered not a stick shift because I know you said you wanted one but think about this not oh

01:45:47   You put it that way I see so not a stick shift

01:45:53   That's that what you're saying not the thing I want right also a pretty close number two on that list was not front-wheel drive

01:46:02   Mm-hmm yeah a lot of people are saying oh you see you don't worry about that

01:46:07   Don't worry about a stick shift. Don't worry about front-wheel drive. You know I got a perfect front-wheel drive

01:46:10   Car for you, that's what you were looking for right that seems like that's exactly your criteria

01:46:17   I mean exactly it they were they were arguing you know they were saying most of the people like you know some people just plain

01:46:23   Forgot because I would like they were doing a whole email about the the car that you should get but other people were pitching you

01:46:29   They're saying here's why you should consider front-wheel drive. It's not your father's front-wheel drive blah blah blah

01:46:33   And I mostly respect those pitches, but maybe they just don't know your stubbornness now

01:46:37   Would you call that an elevator pitch or an escalator pitch?

01:46:40   We're called an email pitch and I think people made some I have to say though

01:46:45   I have to think a lot of people made good arguments like if you were going to try to talk you out of

01:46:49   Yeah, stick shift or rear-wheel drive people have some good arguments based on their actual experiences driving these cars

01:46:55   So I think there was a good quality feedback in there

01:46:58   but I'm not sure how much it helped you.

01:47:00   - My other favorite was everyone in the entire world,

01:47:03   I counted, it's true, telling me you should buy a WRX.

01:47:06   In fact, in the chat room as we speak,

01:47:08   two different individuals are telling me

01:47:11   to buy a Subaru or a WRX.

01:47:13   - No, I won't allow it.

01:47:15   - No, well, so here's the thing,

01:47:16   like I tweeted within a day of the show coming out

01:47:19   because I was already getting inundated by it,

01:47:22   two things, I said, you know, number one,

01:47:25   I think the WRX isn't cushy enough.

01:47:29   I want something that's a little bit less boy racer.

01:47:32   Secondly, this is my past Subaru.

01:47:35   And it's a picture of my Legacy GT.

01:47:37   Now, this was after I sold it, and I think we might have discussed this on the show,

01:47:40   but it was after I sold it, and it literally died in a fire.

01:47:46   You know that phrase that I love so very much?

01:47:48   It died in a friggin' fire.

01:47:50   Are you attributing that to the car, or is that the owner?

01:47:54   I've seen that picture too, but because you didn't own the car, you don't know how that happened.

01:47:57   That's true. However, let me remind you that that car smelled of gasoline/petrol

01:48:03   for most of the time that I owned it.

01:48:05   The wheels all stayed on it though, unlike another car that you've owned.

01:48:08   This is true, which was an improvement.

01:48:10   It's a low bar.

01:48:10   Casey gets a car, a wheel falls off. Next car dies in a fire. BMW is doing pretty well.

01:48:17   It is doing excellent.

01:48:20   Just consuming its engine parts in a hail of metal occasionally.

01:48:23   Yeah, no big deal, right?

01:48:25   What's the common factor here, Casey? Maybe you drive really weirdly.

01:48:29   I guess? I don't know. But I had a few people reach out with interesting ideas.

01:48:37   I had a handful of people reach out and say the Golf R is just as good as you think it is.

01:48:42   I had a handful of people with various degrees of aggression say, "Stop fighting with this. Just lease your damn car."

01:48:50   Which I think I I understand that in there. There's probably some truth to it. In fact Marco you made a pretty good pitch for it

01:48:57   I thought I remember that was on slacker on Twitter, but regardless

01:49:00   Leasing would surely fix many if not all of these problems, but it creates other problems, which is you know

01:49:09   I'm just throwing money into a pit. I'm borrowing a car, but you're doing that now therefore you're fair

01:49:14   You're all any ownership of a car is throwing money into a pit and only borrowing it

01:49:19   No matter how you do it, that is the result.

01:49:21   It's only a difference of mechanics

01:49:24   of how that actually happens,

01:49:26   and on what time scale, and in what pattern.

01:49:29   And what I like about leasing, which I've said before,

01:49:31   I'll just go to the very quick summary.

01:49:34   You know, it is not the absolute

01:49:36   lease money to spend on a car.

01:49:37   Like the least money to spend on a car

01:49:39   is to buy a lightly used Honda or Toyota

01:49:43   and drive it until it doesn't drive anymore.

01:49:45   That is by far the cheapest way to own a car.

01:49:48   But if you're going to go the route of nice cars,

01:49:53   and in particular if you're gonna go the route

01:49:54   of buying new, usually a lease is really nice for that

01:49:58   because it is predictable and fixed,

01:50:02   and you put the risk of market fluctuations,

01:50:07   the value of your car, whether it ever gets in an accident

01:50:10   or anything like that, you put the risk of all that

01:50:13   and the eventual resale value back on the manufacturer.

01:50:17   And so you have a very predictable, guaranteed,

01:50:21   fixed three years of here's what this is going to cost me

01:50:24   every year or every month or whatever.

01:50:27   And then at the end, it is done, it is over.

01:50:29   You don't have to worry about am I gonna lose

01:50:32   a lot of resale for this little scratch I have over here

01:50:35   or whatever else and all the maintenance is included.

01:50:39   So it's a way to just take this weird,

01:50:43   severe up and down spiky expense pattern

01:50:45   of owning a car and just make it flat.

01:50:47   - Make it flat but expensive.

01:50:50   - But financing new versus leasing new,

01:50:54   it's kind of a toss up mostly.

01:50:56   It depends on the incentives and the interest rates

01:50:59   of the current month and that brand

01:51:01   and the configuration you're looking at.

01:51:02   Sometimes leasing's actually cheaper

01:51:04   'cause what a lot of the brands will do

01:51:06   is they will use lease incentives and lease specials

01:51:10   to help them reach earnings for this quarter

01:51:14   at their own expense, basically,

01:51:16   like they're kinda like borrowing against their own future.

01:51:18   So you can, actually the best deals in the car industry

01:51:21   usually are, for new cars at least,

01:51:23   usually are lease specials for that reason,

01:51:26   that you're kinda like taking advantage

01:51:27   of the manufacturer's need to boost their numbers

01:51:29   in a certain time span or whatever,

01:51:30   but that's gonna be less applicable

01:51:33   to the kinds of cars you're looking at, honestly.

01:51:35   But anyway, that's why leases are good.

01:51:37   They're fixed, they're predictable,

01:51:38   and they're kind of like, if your usage pattern,

01:51:41   Like if your mileage driven fits within what a lease can do,

01:51:45   which yours does, then it really makes a lot of sense.

01:51:48   Especially for the kind of cars you are looking at,

01:51:51   which are fast cars, sports cars.

01:51:54   And it's one thing to lease something more conventional

01:51:58   and more low key with a lower key,

01:52:01   not as tweaked up engine and not high performance brakes,

01:52:04   not high performance parts, that's one thing.

01:52:06   But the kind of cars you're looking at,

01:52:09   as you know too well now, are very expensive to maintain.

01:52:13   That, you're gonna have that problem with any way

01:52:16   you look at this that still involves you having a soul.

01:52:19   So because of that, that's why I think you should

01:52:23   go to leasing because, again, you're losing

01:52:26   a bunch of money no matter how you do this.

01:52:27   With leasing at least, it's more compatible

01:52:30   with the kind of like high powered sporty cars

01:52:33   that you're looking at and it allows it to be predictable.

01:52:37   There's no more surprises.

01:52:39   And I tell you what, that is a freeing decision.

01:52:43   'Cause I've done now every method of owning a car.

01:52:45   I have bought used, I have bought new via financing,

01:52:50   and I have leased.

01:52:51   And leasing is the only one of those I did more than once.

01:52:56   And there's a reason for that.

01:52:58   Because my experience doing the other two

01:53:00   were both very poor.

01:53:01   When I bought used, I had a maintenance nightmare.

01:53:03   when I financed new, I lost a killing on resale value

01:53:08   because at one time I had to get a door panel replaced,

01:53:12   not my fault, the car was parked

01:53:14   and somebody backed into my door

01:53:15   and I had to get a door panel replaced

01:53:16   and they saw that when I went to resell it

01:53:18   and they could tell that it had been repainted

01:53:21   from, they could look at the edge on the inside

01:53:23   and kind of see, oh yeah, this is a repainted panel,

01:53:25   even the part from the outside, but anyway, yeah,

01:53:28   I lost like $5,000 off the resale price on that car.

01:53:32   It was horrible and it just sunk all,

01:53:35   like that was my accord.

01:53:37   And like all the calculations I did,

01:53:39   just like is this the best value car?

01:53:40   That best value was destroyed because of that resale loss.

01:53:44   So like everything that I thought I was doing right

01:53:47   was out the window because I had bad luck.

01:53:49   Similar to what you're seeing now with your BMW.

01:53:51   Like everything you thought of your calculation

01:53:54   of what you were gonna spend on this car

01:53:56   is being thrown out the window

01:53:57   'cause weird stuff is going wrong

01:53:58   and you just happen to have bad luck

01:54:00   with the maintenance on this one.

01:54:01   That can happen with any car you get,

01:54:02   no matter how reliable it is.

01:54:04   This is all to say, this is why I like leasing so much.

01:54:06   You know, with leasing, you get the new car,

01:54:09   and yes, you're paying a cost for a new car, right?

01:54:13   That's never gonna be cheap, no matter how you do it.

01:54:15   But if you're gonna get a new or newish car,

01:54:18   with a lease, you pay every month,

01:54:21   you get the car brand new, exactly the spec you want,

01:54:24   you custom order it exactly what you want,

01:54:25   you get every option, every color, whatever you want,

01:54:27   your stick shift, you don't have to wait and find one,

01:54:30   you can get exactly what you want.

01:54:31   Three years later, you turn it into the dealer

01:54:34   and you get something else.

01:54:36   And you don't have to worry during that time.

01:54:38   If you get like a scratch in month six of a lease,

01:54:43   you don't have to look at that and say,

01:54:45   A, am I gonna have to look at the scratch

01:54:47   for the next 10 years?

01:54:48   And B, is this gonna kill my resale value

01:54:51   or do I have to like go get this fixed

01:54:53   somewhere really expensive?

01:54:54   Because you know what, leases have scratch allotments

01:54:55   built in.

01:54:57   You don't have to pay anything unless it's a really huge

01:54:58   or something, and it's just fine.

01:55:01   You just turn it back in and you have a certain allowance

01:55:03   and it's just fine.

01:55:04   It's just so much easier.

01:55:08   There's so much less also, if you're kind of unsure

01:55:12   about whether you want, like one of the reasons

01:55:14   I got a red car this time, I'm not sure.

01:55:17   Having never owned a car that was a bold color before,

01:55:20   I wasn't sure I would like it.

01:55:21   But you know, I'm not buying this car for 10 years,

01:55:24   I'm leasing this car for three years.

01:55:25   So I can take a bit of a risk.

01:55:27   Same thing with the M5, I wasn't sure if I could deal with

01:55:30   a rear wheel drive car in a place that has winters.

01:55:33   And if I was buying a car for 10 years,

01:55:36   I'm not sure I would take that risk.

01:55:37   But because it was only a lease,

01:55:39   I knew that it was a much shorter commitment.

01:55:43   And so I did it, and it worked out great.

01:55:46   Now I have my red car, that's working out great.

01:55:48   So you're able to take more risks with the choices you make,

01:55:51   'cause it isn't a long term commitment,

01:55:52   and the psychology is so much more relaxed,

01:55:56   because you know it's just a lease,

01:55:58   and the time that you're giving it up is fixed,

01:56:01   the value that you're gonna get out of it is fixed,

01:56:04   what you're paying every month is fixed,

01:56:06   and at the end you just repeat,

01:56:07   you just order something else, and the process repeats.

01:56:09   And you can, you know, every three years

01:56:11   you have a chance to stop doing that if you want to,

01:56:12   but, you know, honestly, once you start

01:56:15   it's kind of hard to stop because it's really, really nice.

01:56:18   - KZ doesn't want a three year stand with a car,

01:56:21   he's looking for a long-term relationship.

01:56:23   - I mean, to be fair, you can also get

01:56:24   four and five year leases,

01:56:25   I don't know if anybody really does, but you can.

01:56:28   But every choice that you have presented in front of you,

01:56:33   you're going to have to make some kind of major compromise

01:56:35   on what you would ideally want, right?

01:56:37   No matter what choice you have in front of you,

01:56:39   you have to compromise on something.

01:56:41   And you have to make like one big compromise

01:56:44   to avoid making a whole bunch of other smaller ones.

01:56:47   If you choose leasing as that compromise to make,

01:56:50   'cause I know you object to leasing,

01:56:52   seems like mostly a moral standpoint,

01:56:54   You know, it's less about whether you could afford it or not, and more that you just don't

01:56:58   like the idea of it.

01:57:00   If you can compromise on that, everything else you can get exactly what you want.

01:57:05   Yeah, sort of.

01:57:08   I mean, I guess that's true, but the only things that that would give me access to,

01:57:16   really, is BMWs, and I could just buy a used one, or a Cadillac, and I don't think I

01:57:23   want a Cadillac.

01:57:24   I won't let you get the Cadillac.

01:57:26   Well, I guess what I'm saying is I don't know what re--

01:57:28   leasing doesn't really open any doors, I don't think, that aren't already in front of me.

01:57:33   It just solves the maintenance problem because everything will be--

01:57:38   I will forever be under warranty.

01:57:40   What's next, Mark? Are you going to recommend a three-year marriage?

01:57:43   [laughter]

01:57:45   That's what you're suggesting to us car owners.

01:57:48   That's right. That's true.

01:57:49   Why don't you just let three-year marriages and five-year marriages? It's great. Try it.

01:57:53   It's like no that's not you don't understand the relationship between a man in his car

01:57:57   No, and John you are doing one of my other recommended plans not not quite

01:58:02   I would recommend if you're gonna do like the maximize value plan

01:58:05   I would recommend buying a a just off lease Toyota or Honda and then owning that into the ground

01:58:10   You're doing it all you're doing almost that which is buy a new Honda and own it into the ground

01:58:14   Like that is also a totally valid way to do it. You know, I can't do the leases for two reasons one

01:58:21   Try finding a stick shift on the car to the lease

01:58:24   It's hard enough to find someone who will sell you one from the factory. They do not exist

01:58:28   And two I like having a new car

01:58:31   I like having a brand new car brand new cars are awesome and you get that with a lease too right brand spanking new

01:58:37   That's one of the great things in life is getting a new car. I would never forego that for like a one-year-old

01:58:43   I will eat the 5k that I in depreciation. That's very surprising to me who doesn't like a new car come on

01:58:49   I love a new car, but so my perfect scenario, like if I could just invent the perfect scenario,

01:58:55   I would get like a one or two year old car that was exactly the build I wanted.

01:59:02   That was used by Tiff Arment, driven 500 miles.

01:59:05   Yeah, exactly. No, it's true. And truth be told, that was my BMW. Now it had been driven

01:59:10   many, many miles, but the only way those miles could have been accrued in the time

01:59:15   in which the first owner had it was on the highway. And so on paper my car was perfect.

01:59:20   It was a relatively decent deal.

01:59:22   It turns out he was a mailman.

01:59:24   Well I think my understanding was he was actually an insurance agent.

01:59:27   Stop and go, stop and go. That's why the bano system blows up.

01:59:30   Yeah, could be. But no, my understanding was he was an insurance agent or something like that.

01:59:35   But Marco will probably and justifiably cut this from the show, but as you guys were talking,

01:59:40   I went to AutoTrader and quickly amassed the list of makes that are reasonably easily available

01:59:47   to me in the United States.

01:59:48   And I will run through them alphabetically, so everyone will know the options in front

01:59:52   of me, and the answer is that there are almost none.

01:59:55   Acura.

01:59:56   Acura does not believe in a stick shift anymore.

01:59:58   Alpha.

01:59:59   Volvo, no sticks.

02:00:01   Done.

02:00:02   Any other questions?

02:00:06   A couple other quick notes.

02:00:07   First of all, Porsche is theoretically an option, which I had forgotten.

02:00:11   But A, it's way too expensive.

02:00:12   B, have you seen the Panamera?

02:00:14   It's frickin' hideous.

02:00:15   There's no Ford or Styx.

02:00:17   The Panamera doesn't come with a stick, does it?

02:00:19   You know, now that you say that, you're probably right.

02:00:21   Secondly, Inkette—and this individual's not the only person who has said this—but

02:00:25   oh, you're too picky.

02:00:26   Well, f*** you.

02:00:27   This is what I want.

02:00:28   I mean, I don't care.

02:00:30   This is what I want.

02:00:31   I am allowed to be picky if I'm spending between $20,000 and $80,000.

02:00:34   I am allowed to be picky.

02:00:37   So, sorry, tough nuggies.

02:00:39   I would probably get a used Golf R, and then as I thought more about it, I thought, you

02:00:44   know what, I don't know if it's really even worth just trading this in, because why

02:00:49   would I spend 30 to 40, if Marco has his way, $80,000 on a new car, when I can just continue

02:00:57   to feed my car from time to time and just call it a day?

02:01:01   And so, what I think I'm going to do is just suck it up and deal with the fact that

02:01:05   my car is always going to be in this shop.

02:01:07   - Casey's BMW is my Mac Pro.

02:01:10   - Yeah, actually you're right.

02:01:11   And that makes me absolutely sick.

02:01:12   - We should just go to OWC,

02:01:14   see if I can send you a new water pump.

02:01:15   There you go.

02:01:16   (laughing)

02:01:17   'Cause every time it dies,

02:01:18   they'll just send you another one.

02:01:19   You just have to pay to ship the old one back.

02:01:20   It's fine.

02:01:21   - No big deal.

02:01:22   I was morally offended last week,

02:01:23   but as I got thinking about it,

02:01:24   and as I actually got a couple of offers

02:01:26   of one person I know and one friend of a listener

02:01:31   that had said, "Oh, I'm getting an M2 soon,

02:01:34   and I have a goal far that I'm looking to unload, and we started lightly negotiating

02:01:40   on it. And then I thought to myself, I don't know about this. Like I haven't told this

02:01:45   individual one way or the other, but my current thinking sitting here now is, why would I

02:01:50   throw $30,000 to $40,000 at a problem that's happening every few months for $1,000? Like

02:01:57   that doesn't really fix my problem.

02:01:59   For the privilege of driving around in a Volkswagen Rabbit.

02:02:02   All I'm doing is being a petulant child at that point.

02:02:04   - If you didn't already have a really nice 335,

02:02:08   like if you were starting from nothing,

02:02:10   that'd be another story.

02:02:12   But because you already have something that is good,

02:02:15   yes it is a maintenance headache,

02:02:17   but if you're looking at pure value for the money,

02:02:20   maintaining a BMW is going to hurt your soul,

02:02:25   but it will actually be cheaper.

02:02:27   - Right, and that's the thing,

02:02:28   is that my soul is damaged,

02:02:30   but I know my wallet is thanking me.

02:02:31   The problem with the Gulf R,

02:02:32   like aside from the whole rabbit thing,

02:02:34   there are two critical problems with the Gulf R.

02:02:36   Number one, the trunk really isn't that big

02:02:38   with the seats up.

02:02:39   It's not tiny, but it's not that big.

02:02:43   Secondly, and this is going to sound silly,

02:02:46   and this is just getting even deeper into the,

02:02:49   oh, you're so freaking picky, which is accurate.

02:02:51   - This entire conversation sounds silly,

02:02:52   don't worry about it.

02:02:53   - Yeah, there's no sunroof, and I frickin' love sunroofs.

02:02:57   I love them, I use mine constantly,

02:02:59   even at temperatures where I probably shouldn't.

02:03:01   And the Golf R, unavailable with the sunroof.

02:03:04   - Yeah, that honestly changes a car dramatically.

02:03:07   Like, if you're a sunroof person, I am too,

02:03:09   so I understand, if you're a sunroof person

02:03:11   and you don't have one, it matters a lot.

02:03:14   - Yeah, so in summary, so what I'm backing myself into is,

02:03:18   even the Golf R, which is very close on paper,

02:03:21   has the small issue of trunk

02:03:24   and the medium-sized issue of sunroof.

02:03:27   The ATS or ATS-V is probably what I'd want. It's too damn expensive. The Focus, like I said,

02:03:34   it's either front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive and I look like I am 18. The Chevy SS is really

02:03:41   the right-est answer, except the infotainment would murder me and now they're not making them anymore.

02:03:46   And so really the problem I have is that either I need to drive an A4 and realize it's not that bad,

02:03:53   or I just suck it up because BMW is the only manufacturer.

02:03:57   Like I've backed myself back into BMW

02:03:59   and all of this whole endeavor was to get myself away

02:04:02   from BMW and now I've just backed myself into

02:04:06   the only option I really got is BMW.

02:04:08   - Look, sometimes you get it right the first time.

02:04:10   - Yeah, thank God I did with Aaron.

02:04:12   Everything else I'm not so sure.

02:04:14   - Yeah, except for on the car front, maybe not the color.

02:04:17   - What do you think lasts longer,

02:04:20   your car or John's Mac Pro?

02:04:22   My car, but not by a lot.

02:04:24   You got a long way to go to catch up to my--

02:04:26   You've only had that thing for a couple years.

02:04:27   No, you're saying-- I think Marco's saying what's

02:04:29   getting replaced first.

02:04:30   Yeah.

02:04:31   Oh, my Mac Pro.

02:04:33   Because this summer, I'm getting something new,

02:04:35   whether this thing breaks or not.

02:04:37   You say that now.

02:04:38   I don't believe that.

02:04:39   I'm just going to get an iMac.

02:04:40   Like, worst case scenario, if they introduce no new Macs,

02:04:44   at the end of this year, I will just get an iMac.

02:04:46   Because if they introduce zero new Macs, that means like,

02:04:48   well, forget about the Mac Pro.

02:04:50   Forget about iMac Pro.

02:04:51   whatever, just get a 5K iMac.

02:04:53   I can take a hint.

02:04:54   - There's probably gonna be a new 5K iMac in a few weeks.

02:04:57   - I'm not getting that one.

02:04:58   - Right, exactly.

02:05:00   And so this summer, there's gonna be a four-month-old iMac

02:05:04   in the lineup.

02:05:04   You're not gonna buy a four-month-old iMac.

02:05:06   - No, they're gonna do something in WWC,

02:05:07   even if the something is not introducing a Mac Pro.

02:05:10   That will be a signal to be like, guess what?

02:05:13   It's not gonna happen, so just give it up.

02:05:15   I'll be like, okay.

02:05:16   - I think based on rumors and crap,

02:05:19   I think it's very unlikely that we're gonna see

02:05:21   a new Mac Pro or an iMac Pro this summer.

02:05:23   I think it's too soon.

02:05:25   So, assuming that the summer comes and passes,

02:05:28   and it's July, and there's still no new iMac Pro or Mac Pro,

02:05:33   are you gonna buy the then four month old iMac USB-C?

02:05:40   - You say four month old like it's so old

02:05:42   that I wouldn't buy it, but four month old,

02:05:44   that's in the babyhood of that iMac's life cycle,

02:05:48   'cause it'd probably be unmodified again for 18 months.

02:05:50   - No, but I'm saying you're gonna wait till the next one.

02:05:53   I bet you don't even buy the iMac

02:05:55   that hasn't even come out yet.

02:05:56   - All right, so that scenario is conceivable,

02:05:59   but I still think unlikely.

02:06:01   I'm not gonna rule it out,

02:06:02   'cause that is something I would do.

02:06:04   - I will bet that you don't replace your Mac Pro this year.

02:06:07   - I am ever so slightly leaning on Jon's side,

02:06:12   but man, is it close.

02:06:15   Man, is it close.

02:06:16   - The other thing I have to take into account,

02:06:19   This thing could break like every time something goes wrong

02:06:21   It could be a thing that is like not as easy to replace as ram even if the video card

02:06:25   I'm, pretty sure it keeps showing that it won't break. I think that's very clear

02:06:29   How are the fans not seized by now? I don't understand. That's a good question. Do you like blow it out?

02:06:35   You know when I open it up man, it's filled with like not just dust but dust that is like

02:06:39   Like plated on there like it doesn't blow or wipe off. The dust has become part of the machine

02:06:45   Oh my god.

02:06:47   Like I have an air sprayer and I blow it and it does nothing.

02:06:49   I'm like, why am I, why do I even bother?

02:06:50   This is now part of the machine.

02:06:52   [door closes]

02:06:54   [BLANK_AUDIO]