208: Your Face Is Your Face


00:00:00   that is going to make an awesome after show.

00:00:01   It's not really because it's going to be just a white dude

00:00:04   thinking and moaning about his expensive car.

00:00:07   It's going to be a terrible after show.

00:00:08   And we're going to keep it in and people are going to like it.

00:00:10   And the one or two people that don't like it have long since stopped listening.

00:00:13   Fair enough.

00:00:15   All right, so people have suggested that this phantom

00:00:22   version of the Mac, which includes an ARM coprocessor, if you will,

00:00:28   Maybe that's used for Power Nap. I still am skeptical that would be a reasonable use case, but be that as it may,

00:00:32   um,

00:00:34   the—people have used an example of apparently there's something in the PlayStation 4,

00:00:38   which apparently is a console that people apparently play video games with. I didn't realize that was still a thing.

00:00:43   But anyway, it has a rest mode that I guess works similarly, right, Jon?

00:00:46   Yeah, so this—the last show we were talking about, the ARM CPU

00:00:51   actually being able to function and do useful work when the Intel CPU is off,

00:00:57   which would mean that the ARM CPU would need access to all the same stuff,

00:01:00   you know, all the I/O and networking and all the other stuff,

00:01:05   regardless of what software it runs, whether it runs just, you know, a bunch of Apple software

00:01:08   that Apple supplies as part of the OS or whether third parties can ship ARM compiled binaries to it,

00:01:13   that it would be a full-fledged CPU able to do useful work.

00:01:17   And I was saying how that is pretty complicated if the only benefit you're getting out of it is

00:01:24   we can do power nap on the arm CPU instead of the Intel CPU.

00:01:27   And it remains to be seen if the next item involved we have some more suggestions of

00:01:33   things this thing could do to justify that complexity, but the PS4 is actually an example

00:01:37   of this actual thing in practice because the PS4 is an x86 CPU and when you put it into rest mode

00:01:46   it's basically like the thing is turned off, the fans are off and everything, like it doesn't make

00:01:50   make any noise, it just sits there, but it's not completely off off. And what it does in

00:01:55   this mode is it will like download, update giant updates to your games, it will charge

00:01:59   your controllers, it will do other sort of background tasks that don't require it to

00:02:05   be on, but still mean that it's doing useful work. It will do, obviously with downloading,

00:02:09   is using stuff over the network. And in that rest mode, it's, according to this feedback

00:02:15   we've gotten, which I'm perfectly willing to believe, although I haven't looked into

00:02:18   it extensively. It's not using the Intel CPU, it is using a separate ARM chip just to do this stuff.

00:02:25   And that's an example of an x86 and an ARM CPU in a box and when the the x86 CPU is turned off,

00:02:33   the ARM CPU is able to do all that stuff. It's able to do, you know, manipulate stuff on the

00:02:38   hard drive, it's able to use networking, it's able to do all the, you know, the things and

00:02:42   That is an additional complexity that is worth it for the PS4, because it is fixing all the sins of the PS3.

00:02:49   Every time you wanted to turn the thing on and play a game, you had to download 50 updates,

00:02:53   and it's like, "Why didn't you do that for the 12 hours I wasn't home, PS3?"

00:02:56   It wouldn't even charge your controllers when it was turned off the PS3.

00:02:59   You plug them in, you know, you're like, "Oh, I'm done playing the game, I'll plug in..."

00:03:02   Like, it's the worst. So the PS4 fixes all this, and so it's an obvious win on the console.

00:03:08   And it's, you know, it's down to the instruction set exactly what they were talking about for this rumored Apple laptop.

00:03:15   The question remains, is that additional complexity, and I'm sure it's additional complexity, worthwhile for a Mac?

00:03:21   And so we had one other suggestion for something that the ARM CPU could do that is useful,

00:03:28   that doesn't require third-party developers to make extensions with ARM code compiled to it and ship it off there and do all sorts of stuff like that.

00:03:36   David Boroditsky suggested good old photos and face recognition. You know like when you first

00:03:42   get your Mac or at any point like wandering over your photos finding all the faces and doing the

00:03:47   image recognition now nowadays like figuring out everything that's a house or whatever so you can

00:03:51   do searches later that would be a perfect thing to do when your Mac is in rest mode or asleep or

00:03:57   whatever and it would require maybe networking access depending on how much cloud stuff they

00:04:02   they do for the image recognition,

00:04:03   but certainly would require disk access.

00:04:05   Is that worth the added complexity of making a Mac

00:04:09   that can run either on an x86 CPU or on an ARM CPU,

00:04:13   depending on what mode it's in?

00:04:14   Maybe?

00:04:16   - First of all, the photo recognition thing,

00:04:19   I hope they fix that in this fall's software updates.

00:04:23   Make that sync already.

00:04:24   Everything else about photos syncs.

00:04:27   The fact that every device has to do that

00:04:29   is not only a terrible hack with awkward results sometimes,

00:04:32   but it just destroys the battery life and performance

00:04:37   of computers and iOS devices for the first three days

00:04:42   that you get them, and that's just a bad initial

00:04:44   user experience for everybody.

00:04:46   - But somebody's gotta do it.

00:04:48   I know people might have multiple devices,

00:04:49   but one of the devices has to do it,

00:04:51   and that device is the victim no matter,

00:04:54   it's great that it'll be shared,

00:04:56   but I would imagine for a lot of people,

00:04:58   the phone would be the victim, because that's where they take the pictures, and who knows

00:05:01   if people even have photos syncing on their mind. I feel bad that any device has to be

00:05:07   subject to this. I mean, they could change the policy by saying, "We won't do image recognition

00:05:16   unless nobody's using the device and it's plugged in." Like, basically, only do it when

00:05:21   you're sleeping and it's plugged in.

00:05:22   - Well, they already attempt to do that.

00:05:25   Like, it does stop when you are unplugged

00:05:28   on the laptops most of the time.

00:05:31   However, it takes forever to the point where, like,

00:05:35   you never know when you plug it in,

00:05:36   like, is it best to spin the fan up?

00:05:38   And then when you unplug it,

00:05:39   like, how long will it take before it pauses?

00:05:41   It uses the discrete GPU,

00:05:42   which exacerbates any kind of GPU sticking on bugs.

00:05:45   It's just kind of a mess.

00:05:47   On iOS, it's even worse,

00:05:48   'cause then, like, your phone gets really hot

00:05:49   for, like, the first while that you have it,

00:05:51   and you're like, "Why is my phone so hot?

00:05:52   something wrong with it, is it gonna catch fire?

00:05:54   It's just really inelegant and really sets up

00:05:58   very bad user experiences for anybody who's setting up

00:06:01   an iOS or Mac device that isn't their first one ever.

00:06:04   And that's, they really, really need to address that

00:06:07   in this year's updates, like that cannot wait.

00:06:09   - Yeah, so I'm not sure it would be better if instead

00:06:15   it did it while it was asleep, 'cause obviously

00:06:18   it will take way longer to do it while it's asleep.

00:06:20   really only Apple knows for sure but like what are the usage patterns for

00:06:26   devices that are plugged in not iOS devices because they're they're never

00:06:30   asleep awake like when the screens off basically that's a you know asleep like

00:06:34   when they're plugged in overnight and charging that's when they should be

00:06:37   doing their photo stuff if that's the only device but for Macs I don't know

00:06:41   what the defaults are but I imagine if you walk away from your Mac it'll be on

00:06:45   for some period of time and then I think the default is to go to sleep after like

00:06:49   not that long of a time.

00:06:51   And if you can't do any photo recognition stuff

00:06:54   in the background in sleep mode normally,

00:06:57   like if Power Nap doesn't do any of it now,

00:06:59   that's all a waste of time.

00:07:01   So the only time your Mac has to do photos

00:07:03   is when it's unattended,

00:07:05   is like the one hour between when you stop using it

00:07:07   and when it goes to sleep

00:07:08   according to the default energy saver settings or whatever.

00:07:11   Whereas it could have had 12 hours

00:07:12   just plinking away with this little ARM CPU.

00:07:14   So maybe that would help a little bit,

00:07:15   but again, I have to, you know,

00:07:17   complexity of having a second full-fledged CPU with access to all the same things as the Intel CPU

00:07:21   is significant. And I'm still, so far I'm still on the page that it's much smarter to use that CPU

00:07:29   for auxiliary functions that have to do with the hardware, like I said last time, a proximity

00:07:35   sensor, camera, microphone, you know, sort of like a glorified M1 or M7, what was that, the original

00:07:43   motion detecting step counting thing on the iPhone.

00:07:46   - Was it the M8?

00:07:47   - No, we're getting to be a BMW on the brain.

00:07:51   M7, M7.

00:07:52   - There you go.

00:07:53   - It's the 1M because the M1 was a totally different car.

00:07:55   Anyway, yeah.

00:07:56   Yeah, just having dedicated hardware,

00:08:00   her functions related to the hardware.

00:08:02   And that's perfect for a little CPU.

00:08:05   And again, the only reason we're talking about this at all

00:08:07   is it's already there to run the touch bar.

00:08:09   It's like, it's already there.

00:08:10   And so you're just saying,

00:08:11   how can I get more bang for my buck

00:08:12   from this thing that I already have to put in?

00:08:13   It's not like we're looking to throw a bunch of new chips into the thing.

00:08:16   It's already in these laptops, so I believe that a next version or a version after that

00:08:24   of this, they'll find new things to do with the chip they should, because they're paying

00:08:27   for the chip and it's there, and when it's not doing anything fancy on the screen, give

00:08:31   it something else to do.

00:08:33   They have good ARM chips and they have a good OS to run on them, so why waste it?

00:08:39   Speaking of face recognition, Windows Hello, whatever that may be, does some really weird

00:08:44   and fancy stuff with their face recognition.

00:08:46   Yeah, I made a joke about face recognition not being good for security because someone

00:08:51   just prints out a picture of your face and holds it up and then they unlock your laptop.

00:08:55   Didn't specifically say that that was a vulnerability of Windows Hello because they didn't know

00:08:59   much about it, but many people wrote in to say that Windows Hello actually uses depth

00:09:03   maps so that you can't just hold up a picture because it wants something that not only looks

00:09:07   like your face but is contoured and shaped like your face. So people would have to make

00:09:12   a basically a mannequin of your face instead of just a picture, which is harder. And then

00:09:18   the faces versus fingerprints thing, because a lot of people bring up like, well, it's

00:09:22   just like fingerprints, like people can lift your fingerprints pretty easily. I feel like

00:09:26   it's still the apt comparison is local versus remote exploit. Local exploits, like there's

00:09:31   a million of them, basically, if someone has physical access to your computer, in most

00:09:34   cases game over as far as security for a variety of reasons. For fingerprints they

00:09:40   need to have physical access to either you or something you've touched to lift

00:09:43   your fingerprints and there's been many demonstrations the web like oh you can

00:09:45   lift someone's fingerprint you can unlock their iPhone because you know

00:09:48   fingerprints are a series of ridges and we can get them out and make a little

00:09:50   plastic mold of it and you're gone. Right now usually you can't get fingerprints

00:09:57   from a normal photo of people like if you're walking down the street and

00:10:00   someone snaps a picture of you they can't lift your fingerprints from that

00:10:03   picture or if they Google you they probably won't find close-up pictures of

00:10:07   your fingerprints or anything you've touched at a resolution where they can

00:10:10   lift your fingerprints. But for most people you can find plenty of pictures

00:10:14   of their face and you could fairly, not easily but much more easily, remotely

00:10:21   without ever being anywhere near that person or anything they've touched

00:10:24   reproduce their face in a 3D manner from a series of photos that are taken a

00:10:28   whole bunch of different angles and make it use a 3D printer to make a little

00:10:32   mold and then print out a picture of their face and slap it onto the mannequin and it

00:10:37   fools the depth sensors and it fools the the camera and you've unlocked their thing with

00:10:42   their face.

00:10:44   Again this is kind of like mission impossible whatever stuff if someone is this determined

00:10:47   to attack you it's probably much better just to call you and tell and tell you they're

00:10:51   from Microsoft and they want to reset your password because that's much easier way to

00:10:54   get into your stuff but thinking about this and how easy it is to pull your fingerprints

00:11:00   versus make a 3d model of your face versus whatever has reminded me once again of the

00:11:05   trouble with all biometric security which we all you see in like the future you know sci-fi movies

00:11:11   they're always putting their hands on things or doing retina scans or where you know we're living

00:11:15   in the future now with fingerprints i use my fingerprint to unlock my phone all the time i

00:11:18   love it it's awesome but the trouble with all biometrics is if they are compromised in any way

00:11:26   if people have your fingerprints or have a nice 3D mold of your face,

00:11:30   you can't change those things. You can't say, "Well, I'm going to use a new set of fingerprints."

00:11:34   Always rotate your fingerprints. Don't use the same fingerprints in multiple sites, guys.

00:11:37   Your fingerprints are your fingerprints, and for the most part, your face is your face.

00:11:42   So once compromised, they are compromised forever. You can't use your fingerprint.

00:11:45   If the whole world has high res images of your fingerprints, your fingerprints are useless.

00:11:50   Never mind that in this country, anyway, law enforcement can make you put your stupid finger

00:11:53   on the thing anyway. But just in general biometrics, they're unlike passwords that

00:11:58   you can change and rotate or whatever, you can't change them. Even your retinas,

00:12:02   if you do a retina scan and someone has like a detailed map of your retina and

00:12:05   makes a little fake eyeball with your retina scan, you can't use retina scans

00:12:07   anymore. It's bad. And if it became commonplace,

00:12:12   it's the definition of repeating your password. You only have 10 fingers,

00:12:15   right? You have a different finger on each secure thing.

00:12:19   So in general biometrics are a great convenience, but if

00:12:23   in sci-fi movies, or our youth anyway,

00:12:26   they were always presented as a much more secure way,

00:12:28   like, "Ha ha, you can't get in

00:12:29   "because you don't have my eyeball or my finger."

00:12:31   And then it didn't take long for the movies

00:12:33   to shift into gouging people's eyeballs out

00:12:35   and cutting off their hands to get their fingerprints.

00:12:37   There's another downside of biometrics,

00:12:39   but in general, I think biometrics are settling in

00:12:41   to be the casual convenience feature.

00:12:45   Like it's the reason I unlock my phone with it,

00:12:46   because who wants to type in some big long password

00:12:49   every time you unlock your phone?

00:12:50   but not for increased security.

00:12:52   For increased security, we're still stuck with for now

00:12:57   big giant passwords and multiple factors.

00:13:01   - I love that ripping out somebody's eyes

00:13:03   and cutting off their fingers is described by you, John,

00:13:06   as a downside.

00:13:07   - I mean, it is.

00:13:09   - It's a pretty significant downside in my book though.

00:13:12   - No one's gonna do that unless you're in a sci-fi movie,

00:13:15   like, 'cause no one cares that much about your crap.

00:13:17   And again, there are much easier ways to get at your crap,

00:13:19   like just forcing you to put your finger on it

00:13:21   because you're not a big tough guy.

00:13:22   But in the movies, to get into the evil villains lair,

00:13:26   the, you know, you cut off the guy's hand,

00:13:28   cut off the henchman's hand

00:13:29   and you just shove it on the panel.

00:13:31   - Didn't Tom Cruise's character do that in Minority Report?

00:13:34   - You got new eyes.

00:13:35   - It's been done so many times, so many times.

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00:15:31   (upbeat music)

00:15:34   - All right, so there's been a little bit of

00:15:38   sort of kind of back and forth between our show

00:15:42   and one host across two other shows,

00:15:45   which is a friend of the show, Mike Hurley.

00:15:48   He has talked on his two podcasts, Upgrade and Connected,

00:15:53   about some arguments or counterarguments

00:15:57   about whether or not the iPad is worth Apple's attention.

00:16:00   And you really should listen to both Upgrade and Connected

00:16:03   in, well, in general, but particularly the latest episodes,

00:16:06   and we'll put links in the show notes.

00:16:09   I'm going to try to unfairly summarize Mike's points,

00:16:14   and then--

00:16:15   - I can't wait to hear this.

00:16:17   - Yeah, yeah, and Marco can add his two cents

00:16:20   about all this.

00:16:21   What I got from what Mike said was,

00:16:25   hey, if you look at modern iPads and modern Macs,

00:16:29   where you define modern slightly arbitrarily,

00:16:34   but basically can run the most recent versions

00:16:37   of iOS and macOS,

00:16:39   I don't remember the exact numbers, but modern Macs by that definition go back between five

00:16:45   and ten years, and modern iPads go back I think around five years, something like that.

00:16:49   The particular numbers don't really matter that much.

00:16:52   The conclusion though that Mike came to was, hey, if you look at the sales and thus assumed

00:16:59   install base of modern Macs and modern iOS devices, or excuse me, iPads, there are like

00:17:07   twice as many iPads as there are Macs.

00:17:10   So if there's that many iPads in the wild, shouldn't that be where Apple puts most of

00:17:16   its attention?

00:17:17   Because presumably, all of these iPads are still in use, and presumably at least a subset

00:17:23   of these owners, iPad owners, are using them for—and I'm doing scare quotes here—work

00:17:28   stuff.

00:17:29   So shouldn't that be where Apple puts all of its attention?

00:17:32   Or maybe not all, but a lot of its attention?

00:17:35   And that's a super, super, super summarized version.

00:17:37   Again, listen to Connected and Upgrade,

00:17:40   actually in the reverse order, listen to Upgrade first.

00:17:42   But anyway, listen to them to get the longer versions.

00:17:44   But that's kind of what I got from it.

00:17:46   Is that fair to say?

00:17:48   - Yeah, I think so.

00:17:49   I mean, and this was in response to what a lot of people

00:17:53   were talking about after the earnings came out,

00:17:56   what, two weeks ago now,

00:17:57   about how iPad sales continued to drop.

00:18:01   And many people commented on this with theories,

00:18:03   myself included, both on my blog,

00:18:05   and then we talked about it on the show last week.

00:18:07   And many, many people,

00:18:10   every time there's quarterly earnings that come out

00:18:12   and it shows that the iPad sales are going down,

00:18:14   which has happened a lot in the last few years,

00:18:17   everyone has these theories about,

00:18:18   well, here's why the iPad has failed or is failing,

00:18:21   or you can't get real work done on it or whatever else.

00:18:24   And so if you are an iPad Pro heavy user,

00:18:28   like Mike and Federico and some of our other friends are,

00:18:32   then this makes sense to be defensive about

00:18:36   because it's very hard to separate out these arguments

00:18:40   into like individual things to talk about.

00:18:44   A lot of times people are arguing past each other

00:18:46   because they're not quite hearing

00:18:49   what the other argument was

00:18:50   or they're responding more to a general feeling

00:18:53   or to a general kind of trend of where the commentary is

00:18:57   or has been rather than what somebody actually said

00:19:01   what people are actually trying to figure out.

00:19:02   And there's nuance to all this stuff.

00:19:04   So part of what Mike and Jason on Upgrade were responding to

00:19:09   was not just what we said, but I think a lot of it

00:19:12   was based on us and what we said,

00:19:14   and what I wrote in my blog post about

00:19:16   what if the iPad isn't the future of computing.

00:19:18   And so I did want to address this, hopefully briefly, here.

00:19:23   And I'm actually, I'm working with Mike,

00:19:25   we actually might do a little special

00:19:26   with just me and Mike arguing about it

00:19:27   maybe next week sometime, but we'll.

00:19:29   - Do I get not to get to participate in that?

00:19:32   - Ooh.

00:19:32   - 'Cause I'm right about everything

00:19:33   and you guys just have to argue about

00:19:34   which one is gonna be more wrong.

00:19:36   - Ooh. - Ooh.

00:19:37   - Yikes. - We'll have to--

00:19:38   - I didn't know that I listened to these episodes

00:19:39   but it seems like it was Mike versus Marco

00:19:41   but I said stuff too.

00:19:43   Didn't anyone disagree with the stuff I said?

00:19:45   - You got hit too, don't worry.

00:19:47   You and I were kinda lumped in together.

00:19:48   Anyway, so-- - Oh, that's unfair.

00:19:50   Now that's ridiculous. (laughing)

00:19:52   - I knew that would get you.

00:19:53   Anyway, so here's my actual position here.

00:19:59   Obviously people are getting real work done on iPads.

00:20:01   Not every iPad owner of course,

00:20:03   but as Mike accurately pointed out,

00:20:06   not every Mac is sold and used to do quote,

00:20:08   "real work," whatever that means.

00:20:10   Mike's main point was also that the iPad,

00:20:13   obviously even with the downward slope of its sales curve,

00:20:17   is still selling like two to two and a half times

00:20:20   unit sales of what Macs are selling.

00:20:23   And there are still way more iPads out there than Macs,

00:20:27   and so therefore this really is a serious platform.

00:20:30   And I'm not arguing against any of that actually.

00:20:35   My main argument with my post,

00:20:38   and hopefully if I express it properly last week,

00:20:41   is that the iPad is presented in so many views

00:20:46   both from Apple and from analysts and fans

00:20:50   as quote, the future of computing.

00:20:52   And what I interpret that to mean is

00:20:55   a replacement ultimately or largely a replacement

00:20:58   for the PC and the Mac.

00:21:00   What we're mostly seeing is that, you know,

00:21:03   PCs have been a little bit contracting for a while,

00:21:06   but Mac sales have been pretty solid.

00:21:09   The rise of the iPad over, it's been seven years now,

00:21:13   and it's been popular the whole time.

00:21:15   So like, it's selling a lot, the iPad's selling a lot,

00:21:17   but during that entire rise, sales of Macs haven't gone down.

00:21:21   So if the iPad were really like the future of computing,

00:21:24   in quotes, I'm doing finger quotes here, sorry,

00:21:27   in the way that that means replacing PCs and Macs

00:21:31   for a lot of people, I think the numbers

00:21:33   are showing otherwise, and I made the case last week

00:21:36   that for a lot of people, if you're gonna choose

00:21:39   between only being able to afford or only wanting

00:21:41   to own either an iPad or a computer,

00:21:45   they're still picking that computer.

00:21:47   I think the sales show that, and there's lots of reasons

00:21:49   as we got into last week about why that might be,

00:21:52   things like the limitations of doing things on the iPad

00:21:56   and how many limitations you have there

00:21:58   versus what limitations tend to be on PCs

00:22:01   and differences in usability and everything.

00:22:03   We argued about this, so I'm not gonna repeat the whole thing.

00:22:06   All this is not to say that you can't get worked on

00:22:08   on an iPad or that iPads are only for consumption.

00:22:11   I never said that.

00:22:13   This is also all not to say that nobody is replacing

00:22:17   their PC or Mac with an iPad.

00:22:20   I didn't say that either.

00:22:21   but I think very clearly my argument here

00:22:25   that I'm clarifying now again,

00:22:26   my argument is that on a large scale,

00:22:31   it doesn't appear that tablets are replacing PCs.

00:22:34   And the Windows world is a little bit messier

00:22:38   'cause they kind of have these combo things.

00:22:39   But on the Apple side, I think it's very, very clear

00:22:42   that the iPad is not replacing the Mac.

00:22:45   It seems that most people who buy the iPad

00:22:47   are buying it as the third device.

00:22:50   However they order it in their minds,

00:22:52   they still have a phone and a computer,

00:22:55   and the iPad is added to that mix.

00:22:57   Again, not everybody, not all iPads,

00:22:59   but this is added to the mix for so many of these people.

00:23:03   And so while everyone can name someone who got an iPad

00:23:08   and doesn't use their computer anymore,

00:23:10   a lot of people also use computers and don't buy iPads.

00:23:13   So I think the sales reflect the reality here.

00:23:16   The iPad, like so many things in technology,

00:23:19   has not destroyed what came before it, it has added to it.

00:23:23   And so in a world where it is one of many devices

00:23:27   that people used to get computing on,

00:23:28   as opposed to the device that is replacing the computer,

00:23:33   I worry about the direction that Apple is taking

00:23:36   between the Mac and the iPad,

00:23:38   because it sure looks like, from Apple's point of view,

00:23:41   and we'll get to this crazy slash it rumor in a little bit,

00:23:44   but it sure looks like, for the most part,

00:23:45   what we see from Apple, is that the Mac is kind of like,

00:23:48   as I said last week, it's kind of like

00:23:49   in maintenance mode, it seems like they're not really

00:23:51   putting a lot of huge effort into moving

00:23:54   the Mac paradigm forward.

00:23:55   It seems like they consider the Mac basically done

00:23:58   and they're doing fairly minor things to it.

00:24:01   Touch bar hardware engineering aside, yes, okay,

00:24:03   but the software model seems like it's been fairly minor

00:24:06   and not seeing a lot of meaningful changes

00:24:08   or engineering effort put into it.

00:24:10   Could be wrong, but this is what we're seeing

00:24:11   from the outside.

00:24:13   Whereas the iPad, if that were to be the future

00:24:16   computing, then that needs more investment.

00:24:19   What we're seeing instead is that that's not the future

00:24:22   computing, and Apple's kinda neglecting both of these

00:24:23   platforms, but that's a story for another day, I guess.

00:24:27   But I just wanted to clarify my argument on this,

00:24:29   is not that the iPad is useless or dead or not possible

00:24:33   to get worked on, simply that it is showing itself

00:24:37   through sales to be, in reality, a third device

00:24:41   for a lot of people, and to not be replacing the Mac.

00:24:45   - While you were talking about that,

00:24:45   was thinking about a fan comment I think was the last show that Apple doesn't

00:24:50   make best best anymore and thinking about Mac sales not that they're

00:24:56   declining but as as the Mac has become over many years proportionally less of

00:25:04   what Apple sells mostly because the iPhone honestly you know because they

00:25:07   sell bazillion iPhones right but even you know the iPad has pointed out that

00:25:10   sells as much or more than the Mac these days. To go back to our favorite

00:25:16   well, the good old car analogy, in the car world if you sell a small number of cars

00:25:23   and you are a going concern in the car business, chances are good that the small

00:25:28   number of cars you sell are extreme in some way. No one sells a small number of

00:25:33   Toyota Camry's. Like you can't run a car business by selling 5,000 Toyota Camry's

00:25:39   a year. that's not a thing, right? but you can sell 5000 ferraris a year and be okay.

00:25:46   you can sell 5000 humvees maybe and be okay, or that's a bad example to this GM. but anyway,

00:25:52   if you sell in small volume, you specialize. and very often you charge tons of money, like

00:25:58   way out of proportion to the quality of the car that you're selling, you know jaguar or

00:26:02   whatever, sorry, you know, maybe that's not true these days, i know they're better. anyway,

00:26:07   If the Mac, again, not low volume but proportionally lower volume, if the Mac becomes the minor

00:26:15   player in the world of the iPhone, which is the Toyota Camry, right, and maybe even the

00:26:20   iPad is selling more than it, you know, on an ongoing basis, that would be the perfect

00:26:26   time for them to look at that line and say, "Well, who is still buying Macs?

00:26:29   Why would someone want a Mac over an iPad?

00:26:31   Oh, they have more demand and need than the more sophisticated tasks."

00:26:35   Go back to the old world Apple, which was perfectly willing to have a machine that could

00:26:41   be configured with an obscene amount of RAM, with a ridiculous number of the most expensive

00:26:46   CPUs, with a very large hard drive and a very big hot expensive GPU, and overcharge for

00:26:53   all of it.

00:26:54   That's the old Apple way.

00:26:56   Make a machine that I can configure to be as much as an Apple Watch edition.

00:27:00   be able to configure, you used to even with the old 2013 Mac Pro, a 15-20,000 dollar Mac.

00:27:07   It's not worth that much money. It's overpriced in the same way that a Ferrari is not worth

00:27:11   that much more than a Corvette that has almost the same performance. But for people in certain

00:27:15   markets, whether it's because you need the absolute biggest best and you're willing to

00:27:19   pay for it like it's a blip on your radar, or just because you want a Ferrari because

00:27:23   you think it's cool, as your volumes get lower in proportion to the rest of your business,

00:27:27   becomes a way to extract more money from this product line.

00:27:31   And so it seems that they are losing interest in the Mac.

00:27:33   I wish they would have enough interest to say, "Can't we fleece those people?"

00:27:36   Because at this point, I'm begging to be fleeced.

00:27:39   Can't we, you know...

00:27:40   Like how...

00:27:41   Have you priced out a Touch Bar MacBook Pro by any chance, Jon?

00:27:44   I know, I know.

00:27:45   I mean, that's a thing too, but it's still within the realm of reason.

00:27:48   You can't even get it with 32 gigs RAM, right?

00:27:52   And if there are people who have those demands, there's nowhere to go in the Mac world for

00:27:56   them.

00:27:57   Regardless of where we want to draw the line between, where is the line between people

00:28:02   who really need a personal computer-style thing and people who need an iPad and people

00:28:06   who just need a phone, there's a continuum there.

00:28:08   But at a certain point, we all agree that the Mac is at one end of that spectrum, right?

00:28:14   No one's arguing that the Mac is in between the iPad or the phone or something.

00:28:17   It is one end of that spectrum.

00:28:19   You just need to extend that line out and make sure that if someone is forced into a

00:28:24   a Mac or has to use a Mac because of their work, that they can go all the way up.

00:28:29   And you know, because it's a low volume relative to the phone market, charge tons of money,

00:28:34   get super high margins, maybe be less into the $500 increases on your laptop model, which

00:28:42   is more of a mainstream thing, and just put all that money into, I don't know, like a

00:28:45   Mac that's for professionals, like you could shorten the name, but whatever.

00:28:49   I know we're in circles here, but I was just...

00:28:52   - The sad part is they have been doing that to the Mac Pro.

00:28:55   Every Mac Pro generation is more expensive

00:28:57   than the last one.

00:28:58   - I know, but then they didn't give you one

00:28:59   with two CPUs in it, right?

00:29:01   And then they stopped-- - They still raised the price.

00:29:03   - I know, I know, but it just seems like it's frustrating

00:29:06   when at any price you can't throw your money at Apple

00:29:09   and say just give me as much RAM

00:29:12   as will physically fit in the machine

00:29:13   because I'm doing some weird application

00:29:15   and I don't care how much it costs.

00:29:16   And it's like nope, not interested in selling you that.

00:29:19   and you should be because it's a good way

00:29:22   to make money off suckers like us.

00:29:23   - And also, to bring it back a little bit

00:29:27   just to the iPad discussion,

00:29:28   I did wanna also mention a great post

00:29:31   that our friend David Sparks made over at Max Sparky

00:29:34   about his interpretation.

00:29:37   He is also a very iPad Pro user.

00:29:40   And his interpretation basically of trying to explain

00:29:43   the way the iPad sales dip is, in short,

00:29:47   I hope I'm summarizing this accurately,

00:29:48   In short, that basically most people aren't pushing

00:29:52   their iPad hard, that's why so many people are able,

00:29:56   even people who have decided to make the iPad

00:29:59   a part of their life or a part of their workflow or both,

00:30:02   they're still perfectly okay using a four year old iPad.

00:30:06   And the main reason why that he's saying,

00:30:09   which I think is right on, is that they're just not

00:30:13   pushing it hard enough because what people do on iPads,

00:30:17   what the software does, what is possible to do well on it,

00:30:23   is usually pretty light workload kind of stuff.

00:30:26   It isn't that the hardware is not getting better,

00:30:28   the hardware is getting way better,

00:30:30   but just what most people are doing on the iPad

00:30:31   doesn't need better hardware.

00:30:33   And the blame for that and the duty to fix that

00:30:36   or to try to push that forward mostly lands on Apple

00:30:39   because a lot of that has to do with the OS

00:30:41   the way it's structured and various limitations.

00:30:44   A lot of that has to do with the app ecosystem,

00:30:46   which much of that is on Apple to try to fix

00:30:51   or to enable fixes to happen.

00:30:54   We've seen this theme from a lot of iPad users' responses

00:30:57   over the last two weeks to this.

00:30:59   People love the iPad.

00:31:01   People want to use it for more.

00:31:03   They want to be able to do more of their work on it

00:31:06   if they can't currently do all of it on it.

00:31:08   But iOS needs to move forward in a way

00:31:13   that lets people get more worked on more efficiently.

00:31:15   I mean, there are so many really basic things

00:31:19   or that we consider basic from the PC era

00:31:21   of just things like managing multiple emails

00:31:24   and attachments and moving photos around,

00:31:27   moving documents around, things that are very hostile

00:31:31   to do on iOS, that are very clunky

00:31:34   or sometimes even just impossible without crazy hacks

00:31:37   or sometimes just outright impossible.

00:31:40   Simple stuff like moving media around

00:31:43   and dealing with people's files.

00:31:46   iOS really fights people a lot.

00:31:47   Basic multitasking stuff,

00:31:49   the multitasking implementation now is very limited

00:31:52   and could really use some enhancement

00:31:54   and whether that's coming down the road this year or not,

00:31:57   we'll see, I hope it does.

00:31:58   But the point is there's still tons of room

00:32:01   to improve iOS on the iPad.

00:32:03   And I hope Apple tries to do that in some way

00:32:07   because tons of people want that,

00:32:09   and it just seems like,

00:32:12   it seems like regardless of which side

00:32:14   of the future of computing you fall on,

00:32:16   whether you think it's the iPad or the Mac,

00:32:19   it seems like there's plenty to complain

00:32:21   about Apple neglecting your platform either way.

00:32:24   I hope Apple cares enough about

00:32:26   the actual future of computing

00:32:28   to invest very heavily in at least one of these platforms,

00:32:30   'cause it seems right now that

00:32:32   the Mac is in maintenance mode indefinitely,

00:32:34   and the iPad gets occasional updates from iOS

00:32:39   when it's convenient for them.

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00:33:51   On the idea that the iPads, like people keep using them because it still does

00:33:57   what they want to do even though they could buy a much better one. I think

00:34:00   is another situation where Apple probably has data about this, but trying to think about it

00:34:06   anecdotally, there's two things that make you, two things that come to mind immediately that

00:34:11   make you buy a new whatever. One is the usual tractor of software. Basically if you have a

00:34:17   vibrant software ecosystem, eventually your old phone doesn't run the cool new app that all your

00:34:21   friends are talking about. So the more vibrant the ecosystem is, the more apps take advantage

00:34:27   of new hardware or are being dragged along by the platform by like not supporting 32-bit apps anymore

00:34:32   or whatever, you know. The more that is a thing, it'll make you say, "Oh, I don't like my phone

00:34:38   anymore because all my friends are using AppX and I can't use that because it says it doesn't run on

00:34:44   my phone or something," right? So software ecosystem, which again is lacking on the iPad,

00:34:49   like there's more of that on the phone than there is on the iPad in terms of social pressure and

00:34:55   software, you know, action in the software market to put it along.

00:34:59   And the second one, and this is where Apple would have the data, is how many people

00:35:03   replace their phones because they break them.

00:35:04   I see a lot of broken phones.

00:35:07   Um, and I see fewer broken iPads.

00:35:10   I do see cracked iPads.

00:35:11   You see them in airports and stuff, but I also see kids in airports with iPads dropping

00:35:16   them like they're a juice box and just bounce in the giant rubbery case they're in.

00:35:21   Right.

00:35:21   So I'm going to say probably percentage wise, phones and their lives because they break

00:35:28   more often than iPads, just based on my personal experience and anecdotally.

00:35:32   But again, Apple would know because they probably in all these surveys say, "Why are you buying

00:35:36   a new phone?"

00:35:37   It seems to me that those two tractors are making the phone replacement cycle.

00:35:44   Notice I didn't list as one of the things that's making people replace their phones

00:35:46   is that their phone feels slow.

00:35:48   In general, I think iPhones aren't like Windows computers where you use them for two years

00:35:53   and they're so crapped up that you just need to get a new one.

00:35:56   Again, this is based on my experience and talking to other people.

00:35:58   That doesn't happen with phones as much.

00:36:00   Not saying it doesn't happen at all.

00:36:01   Sometimes your phone does get slow and you know, I upgraded the OS and then my phone

00:36:04   feels slow and that is another factor in it, but I feel like it is far behind software

00:36:11   ecosystem pressuring you into upgrading your phone and just plain dropping it.

00:36:15   if none of those things are true for the iPad, then it is protected. And it kind of makes me fear for the day

00:36:20   when Apple makes an iPhone that you can drop all day long and it never breaks, will the phone suddenly become like the iPad?

00:36:26   If again, if this theory is correct that you know, the people aren't buying new iPads because the one they have is working just fine.

00:36:32   I think people's phones would be working just fine

00:36:34   if there wasn't some new app they wanted to play if they didn't keep dropping them. Maybe I'm overestimating the dropping and maybe I

00:36:41   Notice cracks too much because I'm always amazed at the vast percentage of people I see like on the train or whatever

00:36:47   Just swiping their thumbs along totally shattered phones

00:36:50   You know I was or not because people drop them and they're made of glass and it's a problem. So I don't know

00:36:56   really need to get

00:36:59   Product marketing from Apple on the show now that we're mad with power and say what are your percentages?

00:37:03   Why do people replace their phones?

00:37:05   Is it because they have an Android phone and it's getting old and slow?

00:37:08   Is it because they drop their old one or is it because they want to play a new game?

00:37:10   - I, first of all, that's okay, that'll be question number

00:37:15   one for when we get Phil, well question number two.

00:37:18   Question number one will be about the Mac Pro.

00:37:20   - I have many other questions earlier in the queue,

00:37:22   we may never get to that one, sorry folks.

00:37:24   - That's fair, but I do think you are underestimating

00:37:27   how many people replace their phone because it's old and slow

00:37:30   because--

00:37:31   - Do you think it's just OS upgrades?

00:37:33   - Yeah.

00:37:34   - I brought that up and I have heard that from a lot

00:37:36   of people and it is a real thing, but I was gonna say

00:37:39   I know it's forcing you to upgrade your phone,

00:37:41   but Apple's pretty pushy these days, aren't they?

00:37:42   - Yeah, Apple really, really pushes the upgrade pretty hard,

00:37:46   and sometimes like a critical app for people will require it,

00:37:51   so that kind of forces them to--

00:37:52   - I mean, they pushed you on the iPad too.

00:37:53   Like, I had iPads that I regret upgrading the OS for

00:37:56   because they're just so old,

00:37:57   and you upgrade to the very last,

00:37:59   and like, oh, I should've stayed one version back,

00:38:01   so why wouldn't that make people

00:38:02   replace their iPads in the same way?

00:38:04   - Well, that's a good question, worth thinking about.

00:38:06   I think one of the reasons for that,

00:38:08   maybe one of the biggest reasons for that

00:38:10   is the types of apps that you use on the iPad

00:38:14   versus the types of apps that you use on the phone.

00:38:17   And like, is there an app that's pushing you

00:38:19   to upgrade or not?

00:38:20   On the iPad, I think the data shows

00:38:25   that despite the community of people

00:38:28   who get a lot of work done on the iPad,

00:38:31   a lot of iPad users are using it mainly

00:38:34   for video watching, web browsing, and email, Facebook.

00:38:38   Like the basic email web video kind of workflow.

00:38:43   And for that, probably nothing's really gonna push you

00:38:46   to really upgrade your OS.

00:38:47   Like you can still use Apple's Mail app

00:38:49   and whatever OS you have, you can still use the web browser.

00:38:51   You can probably, like I would imagine like Facebook

00:38:54   and Netflix and stuff probably keep

00:38:55   their minimum version pretty low.

00:38:57   - Oh, they'll upgrade the OS, but it doesn't matter

00:39:00   if you upgrade the OS.

00:39:01   If you're just using to play video,

00:39:02   it really doesn't matter exactly how clunky the animation is

00:39:04   and springboard when you launch the Netflix app.

00:39:06   All you care about is once the video starts playing,

00:39:07   it's fine.

00:39:08   - That's fair, but anyway, regardless,

00:39:10   I think the way most iPads are used,

00:39:15   it probably has a slower upgrade cycle

00:39:18   from the software side simply because

00:39:20   they're not often using a lot of apps

00:39:22   that require the newest version of the OS,

00:39:24   whereas on the phone, you have a lot more like,

00:39:27   you know, new games that come out,

00:39:28   new cutting edge apps that come out,

00:39:29   usually come out on the phone first or only,

00:39:31   and you have more early adopters using it.

00:39:33   It seems like there's more driving that,

00:39:34   but also, there's this consistent narrative with the iPad

00:39:39   that explains a lot of this, that is probably correct,

00:39:42   and there is some data to back it up,

00:39:44   that basically, while you can get work done on it,

00:39:48   a lot of people do use it for mostly consumption.

00:39:51   That's not a judgment, that's just what people do.

00:39:54   That's also true of computers, that's also true of phones,

00:39:56   however, that is true of iPads,

00:39:58   and that people's needs on iPads are fairly simple,

00:40:02   most of the time.

00:40:04   Whoever's fault that is doesn't really matter.

00:40:06   The point is, people do pretty simple things

00:40:08   on iPads most of the time.

00:40:10   - You know, it's only one data point,

00:40:12   but I feel like it's relevant.

00:40:15   The aforementioned iPad 3 that we had

00:40:18   after we stopped using it,

00:40:22   because we found it to be too old,

00:40:24   it was collecting dust for months.

00:40:27   And then, just a couple months back,

00:40:29   I had my, I had, you know, reset it all,

00:40:32   And I had my dad bring it to my grandparents.

00:40:37   They live in Pennsylvania, I'm in Virginia, and although they come down from time to time,

00:40:42   we haven't been up there in a long time.

00:40:44   And, you know, they're not that young at this point, because I'm turning 35 pretty soon,

00:40:50   and these are my grandparents.

00:40:53   But we gave them this iPad 3, mostly so they could FaceTime with us and Declan and, you

00:40:58   know, I guess my parents from time to time as well.

00:41:02   From what I understand, they were beyond overjoyed

00:41:06   to have received it, not only because of FaceTime,

00:41:11   but because it's a much easier device for them to use

00:41:14   than their PC, and I think it's a reasonably modern PC,

00:41:17   but they were overjoyed to receive an iPad 3

00:41:21   late in 2016.

00:41:25   When was the iPad 3 new, like 2012 or something like that?

00:41:28   Probably before that, actually.

00:41:31   - 2012.

00:41:32   - It was a 2012, okay.

00:41:34   So yeah, so they were beyond excited

00:41:36   to receive this old device,

00:41:38   which for them is more than enough.

00:41:40   Now obviously they have nothing to compare to.

00:41:42   Obviously, in a perfect world,

00:41:45   I'm sure they would prefer a brand new one.

00:41:47   But for someone who hadn't had one before,

00:41:52   it was way more than enough.

00:41:55   And not every iPad user's gonna be like that.

00:41:57   And I'm sure that there's tons of iPad users

00:42:00   upgrade regularly that are not using it for work. They just really love the iPad. But

00:42:05   to speak of the longevity of the iPad, this is a device that's nearly five years old now

00:42:11   that brought genuine joy to their household when they received it.

00:42:16   >> Well, because that's the thing. This is why old iPads are so useful and so many of

00:42:21   them are still in use, because most people's needs are pretty low-end. Most people just

00:42:25   want a thing that they can browse the web and send emails and see Facebook on. That's

00:42:30   that's pretty much what most people do

00:42:31   with any of their computing devices,

00:42:33   phone, laptop, or tablet.

00:42:35   And so this device is delightful for that.

00:42:39   Again, but I think that that doesn't preclude

00:42:43   people doing real work on it,

00:42:45   and also my theory that I'm putting forth

00:42:48   with these sales graphs that this is mostly

00:42:51   just additive to the world technology.

00:42:53   - There aren't any real answers here.

00:42:56   The data that we have is shallow,

00:43:00   And we have to extrapolate a lot from it.

00:43:03   And so because of that, there's so much judgment involved

00:43:07   and there's no clear right or wrong.

00:43:08   And I think that's why we're going to talk about it

00:43:10   in bits across 17 different podcasts for a little while.

00:43:15   But yeah, so let's talk about something

00:43:19   that's indisputably awesome.

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00:45:23   - So there was this crazy, ah, dammit, sorry.

00:45:30   There was this crazy rumor, or sort of rumor,

00:45:34   that was posted on Slashdot as a comment.

00:45:38   And this was a, in Slashdot parlance, an anonymous coward,

00:45:44   which is to say somebody that didn't wanna leave their name.

00:45:47   But they went on and on about how there are several

00:45:51   arm-powered laptops that are drifting around internally

00:45:53   at Apple, and this individual claims to have seen several

00:45:56   with their own eyes.

00:45:58   And they had a lot to say about it.

00:46:02   I don't know the best way to summarize it,

00:46:04   partially because I read this days ago,

00:46:05   and I haven't looked back since,

00:46:07   which was in part because it seemed kinda bananas to me.

00:46:11   - Right. (laughs)

00:46:12   But it seemed like the short, short version was,

00:46:17   yeah, there's some apps that run on ARM,

00:46:20   and the OS is really iOS-ish, even though it isn't iOS.

00:46:25   A lot of things that we like to control as,

00:46:30   not even necessarily power users, but users on macOS,

00:46:35   not a lot of that is available

00:46:37   on these supposed phantom ARM Macs.

00:46:40   I didn't think this—something about this didn't feel right to me.

00:46:45   Like I'm not sure I can point to a specific passage and say, "Yes, this is why it's

00:46:48   bananas."

00:46:49   But a lot of it just didn't feel right to me, and from what I gathered from people

00:46:52   that I've spoken to, it didn't feel right to a lot of them.

00:46:55   But we wanted to acknowledge its existence, and we will put a link to the show notes,

00:46:58   and I'm sure that the two of you have some thoughts on it as well.

00:47:01   I want to do more than just acknowledge it.

00:47:03   Yeah.

00:47:04   Because I don't want to entertain it as a possibility because it's not a credible

00:47:08   source.

00:47:09   pretend like hypothetically, let's talk about this thing

00:47:12   if it existed, right?

00:47:14   Because again, I don't think the sourcing is enough

00:47:16   to say that this does exist, but.

00:47:18   - I would say in fact the incredible shadiness

00:47:20   of this post and so many of the like weird things

00:47:23   that don't really sound very appley

00:47:25   or don't reflect how they actually work,

00:47:27   I would say this is very unlikely to be true.

00:47:30   But the reason I wanna talk about this too,

00:47:33   I was very happy to see it in the notes,

00:47:34   is that this was an interesting idea

00:47:37   for where the Mac could plausibly go.

00:47:39   because while the details of this are very suspicious

00:47:42   that make you discount the validity of this report,

00:47:46   I do think the overall idea of such a product is plausible.

00:47:50   And the idea that Apple would take you in this direction

00:47:52   is very plausible.

00:47:54   - It's not just plausible, this is like,

00:47:55   this is the, as soon as iOS appeared,

00:47:59   this is basically the exact, not exemplar,

00:48:02   but like, this is the prototype of this rumor.

00:48:05   The very second the first person said, iOS Mac merge,

00:48:08   Like the very second someone said that many, many years ago,

00:48:11   this is exactly what they were talking about.

00:48:12   It says, "A Mac running on ARM CPUs

00:48:16   can only get apps from the App Store.

00:48:17   Everything locked down, all binary sign,

00:48:20   can restore from the internet like a phone."

00:48:22   Like there is nothing in this that is even outside the realm

00:48:26   of the things that are being taught.

00:48:26   The only reason it is, you know, it's interesting again,

00:48:29   is because it's being presented as truth.

00:48:30   It's kind of the same way when you tell a joke,

00:48:32   you pretend it's a real story that happened to you

00:48:33   to make the joke funnier.

00:48:34   That's exactly how this is working here.

00:48:36   But, because we haven't had, like, the reason it's worth talking about it again is because

00:48:41   we haven't revisited this idea of the iOS and Mac merged totally locked down Mac thing

00:48:47   again.

00:48:48   And in light of the actual appearance of ARM CPUs inside Macs with the Touch Bar Mac Pros,

00:48:52   and in light of all the Intel stuff and so on and so forth, and our own revisiting of

00:48:56   when is it going to be time to flip the Mac over to ARM, I think it's worth revisiting

00:49:00   this old rumor of the merged iOS Mac, not so much the merging of the U.S. interface-wise,

00:49:09   but of literally buttoning down the Mac in all the same ways that iOS has buttoned down.

00:49:14   As an example of what we talked about last show, like either expanding the capabilities

00:49:18   of iOS or making the Mac easier.

00:49:22   This would be an example of taking all of those sharp edges in the Mac and filing them

00:49:25   down as much as possible to make something that is hopefully almost as easy to use as

00:49:30   - This is an iPad but still much more capable.

00:49:32   - Yeah, and so I think it's worth going over

00:49:34   some of the details because our chief summarizer

00:49:36   and chief failed to.

00:49:38   - Sorry.

00:49:39   - It's okay, you've had a long day,

00:49:41   we'll get to that in the after show.

00:49:42   But, yeah, sorry.

00:49:46   But yeah, so basically the idea put forth

00:49:48   by this comment basically is that it is a,

00:49:53   it is like the next generation of laptop presumably,

00:49:55   or possibly of all Macs.

00:49:57   It is an ARM processor, all custom Apple ARM hardware,

00:50:00   just like the iPads and phones.

00:50:02   It only boots the signed OS images

00:50:05   that come over the internet.

00:50:08   I assume not every time, not like a Netboot,

00:50:10   but it only boots, similar to iPhones and iPads,

00:50:13   there is no physical install media,

00:50:15   there's no downgrading, it just,

00:50:18   here's the software update for you,

00:50:19   here's what you get, you can't downgrade,

00:50:21   you can't choose what version you run,

00:50:22   just here's what you get, period.

00:50:24   They said a lot of the OS X legacy utilities

00:50:28   and stuff are missing, there's no more X11,

00:50:30   there's no audio MIDI setup, a lot of that stuff.

00:50:34   No disk utility, no terminal, which is interesting.

00:50:36   System preferences and a lot of functionality

00:50:38   has been moved into a new app called Settings to match iOS.

00:50:41   The App Store is mandatory,

00:50:44   including even things that require hardware drivers.

00:50:47   Sounds kind of similar to when you plug in,

00:50:50   or when you connect a Bluetooth or lightning device

00:50:52   to a phone and it can associate itself

00:50:54   with an app on the App Store that lets it work.

00:50:56   Similar to that, but for drivers on the Mac.

00:50:58   So you get a new scanner or something, you plug it in,

00:51:01   and it launches you to the Mac App Store

00:51:05   to download the driver for that.

00:51:07   Similarly, all drivers would be kind of like iOS sandboxified

00:51:11   where something could install one of these drivers

00:51:14   at the deep level of system,

00:51:15   but then you could just go into a system pref pane

00:51:17   and delete it and it's gone.

00:51:19   It doesn't leave files behind.

00:51:21   It's very iOS-y in that way.

00:51:23   With iOS, you can delete an app,

00:51:25   and you know everything about that app is gone.

00:51:27   There's no remnants of it left in your phone or anything.

00:51:30   And of course the Mac doesn't work that way now.

00:51:32   You know, Macs get gummed up over time with all this crap.

00:51:34   And you have all this junk in your library folder

00:51:37   and everything else.

00:51:38   And so, and then, just a couple other things.

00:51:41   But yeah, basically, oh, and the file system is kind of like,

00:51:46   how do you pronounce C-H root in Linux world?

00:51:50   Is it chroot?

00:51:51   I don't know.

00:51:52   But basically the file system is like chroot.

00:51:55   So basically, what appears to be at root

00:51:59   is your home directory,

00:52:01   and you don't even see the system files.

00:52:03   They're not even there.

00:52:05   They exist in the file system,

00:52:07   but you don't see them from your point of view,

00:52:09   from your user space.

00:52:10   You see at root your files and nobody else's.

00:52:13   And they said there was no concept,

00:52:15   seemingly, of multi-user stuff.

00:52:16   But I don't wanna get too much into the specifics

00:52:19   of this post because, again,

00:52:20   I think the credibility of it is pretty low.

00:52:23   But as a future direction of Mac OS

00:52:27   and of the Mac hardware platform,

00:52:30   I do think this is worth talking about,

00:52:31   not only because it's so plausible

00:52:33   based on what Apple seems to want to do,

00:52:35   but also I think, I will have the seemingly,

00:52:39   in this community, very unpopular opinion

00:52:42   that I think this could be really good.

00:52:46   With a few minor exceptions,

00:52:48   I think this could be really good.

00:52:50   The only things about this

00:52:52   that give me a lot of pause are that it said

00:52:57   that everything has to come through the Mac App Store.

00:52:58   That's number one and I think, you know,

00:53:00   the Mac has this wonderful gatekeeper system

00:53:03   and has this kind of like code signing

00:53:05   without app review system called developer ID.

00:53:09   If the developer ID and gatekeeper come forward

00:53:12   into whatever this is, again, assume this is real

00:53:15   even though it probably isn't.

00:53:16   Thought experiment time, okay.

00:53:19   If this were to have some kind of like developer mode

00:53:22   where you could build open source stuff

00:53:24   and however it's container,

00:53:27   if it's in your own little choruda jail, fine,

00:53:29   but if you can build open source stuff,

00:53:31   if you can develop code, if you can compile code

00:53:34   with your C compiler or whatever else

00:53:35   and just run it on this thing

00:53:37   without the OS's code-telling stuff

00:53:39   interfering badly with that,

00:53:41   if that's possible to do here,

00:53:43   and if you can distribute software through developer ID,

00:53:47   which would bypass the Mac App Store,

00:53:50   then I think this is not only plausible and could be good,

00:53:55   but it might be great, because a lot of this

00:53:58   solves real problems with the Mac and with PC style OSs.

00:54:02   One of the biggest problems is like,

00:54:04   how apps spread themselves out all over the place,

00:54:06   all over the system.

00:54:07   You know, they are, like it isn't, as I said with iOS,

00:54:10   you know, iOS, you delete the app, it's gone.

00:54:12   On the Mac, you delete the app,

00:54:13   and there's garbage everywhere,

00:54:15   and you have to use Mac cleanup utilities

00:54:17   to clean all the garbage out sometimes.

00:54:18   You have to go find these files

00:54:20   that are spread all over your system

00:54:21   and you can't be sure what an app is doing

00:54:23   when you install it and all this stuff.

00:54:25   The PC and Mac style of app security is outdated.

00:54:30   We've talked about this before,

00:54:33   how the Unix idea of anything you run

00:54:36   just has access to your entire user account

00:54:39   and everything you've ever made on a user account

00:54:41   and all your files and it can delete files at will,

00:54:43   it can read everything of yours.

00:54:46   That is an outdated model.

00:54:47   that is not great for the future of computing.

00:54:49   And one of the things that makes iOS so appealing

00:54:52   to a lot of people for a lot of reasons

00:54:54   is the additional simplicity and security

00:54:56   that the sandboxing model that it has enforces.

00:54:59   I think it is possible to do this well.

00:55:02   A lot of Mac diehards are really against this idea

00:55:07   when they saw this comment and assuming it might be real.

00:55:10   And I can see why, why you would be so against this.

00:55:14   But I think, again,

00:55:16   it's just like that very slight tweak of a developer mode

00:55:19   and being able to distribute software with developer ID,

00:55:23   that's pretty much all I would need for this.

00:55:26   It sounds like it would be really good

00:55:29   in a lot of other ways.

00:55:30   Either the Mac is in maintenance mode,

00:55:33   as I keep saying, it seems that way,

00:55:35   and nothing ever changes and that's fine,

00:55:38   or if it is going to change,

00:55:40   if Apple really is working on the next generation of OS,

00:55:45   not just 10 dot something else, the entire next generation,

00:55:49   like when they went from classic to OS X.

00:55:52   If they are indeed working on such a thing for the Mac,

00:55:55   which I would argue they should be

00:55:57   because it would be ridiculous

00:55:59   to continue a computing platform forward

00:56:01   with no plans to ever do that,

00:56:02   then I think this is exactly the kind of thing they would do

00:56:08   and we should be prepared for it

00:56:10   and we can see a preview of what it's like

00:56:12   by looking at iOS,

00:56:14   'cause iOS is even more restrictive than this.

00:56:16   And so if this is plausible and if this happens

00:56:21   and if it's done well with those couple of little holes

00:56:24   pumped through the wall for developers

00:56:26   and for distribution through developer ID, as I said,

00:56:29   I think this could be a great move forward.

00:56:33   This could be the simplicity and security of iOS,

00:56:37   but with windowing and file management

00:56:40   and access to your files in a traditional paradigm

00:56:43   and stuff like that.

00:56:45   And yes, it would require a lot of apps to be rewritten,

00:56:48   some things that worked in the old system

00:56:50   wouldn't work anymore, but a lot of this stuff is ancient.

00:56:53   Like, I don't need X11 anymore.

00:56:55   I don't, like, there's a lot of this stuff is so ancient.

00:56:59   Mac OS is very old, it has accumulated cruft over time

00:57:02   because everything does.

00:57:04   This new way of doing things sounds like it could really be

00:57:09   the actual future of computing that blends together

00:57:12   the greatness of iOS with a PC style paradigm

00:57:16   to allow more types of work to get done for more people.

00:57:19   This sounds really good to me.

00:57:20   - The actual future of computer.

00:57:23   I spend all this time explaining myself

00:57:24   and you just ignore me.

00:57:25   (laughing)

00:57:26   It's fine.

00:57:28   Last week we talked about how the iPad was like,

00:57:30   was making progress in terms of expanding its capabilities

00:57:32   with multitasking and the pen and the bigger size and stuff,

00:57:35   but like, but kind of slowly.

00:57:37   The Mac has been doing that same thing,

00:57:40   but in the other direction,

00:57:42   but even more slowly.

00:57:44   'Cause if you think about the Mac,

00:57:46   the Mac trying to simplify itself,

00:57:49   trying to be friendlier, this has been a process.

00:57:53   The process took a pretty big leap

00:57:54   with classic to OS X actually,

00:57:57   because many things that were way more complicated

00:58:00   in classic were massively simplified.

00:58:02   The dock is the best example of that.

00:58:04   All the ways that you could manage the same stuff

00:58:07   that the dock is supposed to do on classic Mac OS

00:58:10   the time we transitioned. The doc was just like the most dumbed down version of all the other

00:58:16   options we had, not even including third-party things of which there were many. This was this

00:58:20   one first-party thing, no you can't use the private APIs to make your own doc type thing,

00:58:26   we will fight you on that, and it is way simpler and don't worry about it because that's all

00:58:30   everybody needs, right? And sandboxing, another example, a long slow painful slog trying to get

00:58:37   some of the benefits that you get in iOS. All your crap in one place, protect applications,

00:58:42   protected from each other, blah blah blah. It's been slow going. We haven't been able to get there

00:58:48   because sandboxing is incompatible with lots of cool things that Mac apps have done and still

00:58:52   want to do. And it's very difficult for Apple to ever get slowly incrementally get it to the point

00:59:02   where Mac applications are sandboxed in the same way as iOS applications.

00:59:06   Instead, they've been saying, "You can be a Mac app, and your stuff can still be in

00:59:11   seven different places because it kind of has to be, but we'll put some constraints on you."

00:59:15   And it's this weird mismatch between having to do that, but also having to be protected

00:59:22   from yourself and isolated from other applications. Even so far as how many Mac apps have struggled

00:59:27   with the sandbox because the integration point on PC style operating systems is very often the file

00:59:33   system and that's how applications share things with each other is I write a thing here and you

00:59:39   open that same thing over there and the user is allowed to make little folders and put stuff in

00:59:43   them and you're trying to sandbox things so each application only sees its own files but like

00:59:46   it's been difficult and so this description of the iOS-ified Mac which again has been in people's

00:59:55   minds and talked about for many many years now, the question is always how do you get

01:00:00   from where we are to there?

01:00:01   Because it's a big leap and trying to do it incrementally has been very difficult.

01:00:07   It's been taking a long time.

01:00:09   It hasn't been particularly successful.

01:00:10   A lot of things, efforts have stalled out despite a lot of effort put into it.

01:00:14   It you know it gets back to the question from the last week's show, is it easier to make

01:00:20   the iPad more capable or make the Mac friendlier and simpler?

01:00:24   And on question, I think it's still easier to make iOS more capable because if you try

01:00:29   to make the Mac simpler, everything about the system and the users and the developers

01:00:34   fights you at every step because there's so much entrenched tradition in software and

01:00:39   conventions and capabilities and attitudes and just like, and cruft, like Marco said,

01:00:44   just plain old cruft.

01:00:48   It's difficult to get there.

01:00:49   So this, the host here is almost kind of like wishful thinking.

01:00:54   Like wouldn't it be great if we could snap our fingers and be there and like Marco said,

01:00:58   one way you can do that is say, okay, well it's not macOS anymore, it's a new OS called

01:01:02   something else, you know, like people would have said macOS 11 back in the days before

01:01:05   the 10 got dropped, right?

01:01:08   But this really would be a leap of that size if it appeared wholesale.

01:01:12   You can still get there piecemeal.

01:01:14   It's going to take a long time.

01:01:15   You might have to wait for some people to die and there are many places where this can

01:01:20   go terribly wrong.

01:01:21   For example, it's obvious to us on this program as rabid Mac users that of course you'd have

01:01:28   to have some mode that most people wouldn't use but that would give you access to the

01:01:32   terminal that will let you build software because we're software developers and we know

01:01:35   any software developer who uses a Mac, no matter what kind of development you're doing,

01:01:39   even if you're doing everything in Xcode I would imagine, but definitely if you're doing

01:01:42   development for any kind of server-side software, you're used to being able to install and run

01:01:48   software that is not signed with Apple's Developer ID thing.

01:01:52   All that Unix open source stuff, that's not signed with Developer ID.

01:01:55   And if you literally can't run binaries that are not signed, if you don't have that final

01:02:00   option in Gatekeeper to launch applications with the right click and the open, and all

01:02:04   that, or just launching it from the command line, if that option literally does not exist

01:02:08   as it doesn't on iOS unless you jailbreak, and I really don't want to be jailbreaking

01:02:11   my Mac, that eliminates just so many users.

01:02:16   This is not even an edge case anymore.

01:02:17   This is like a large percentage of people who, you know, whole professions who use Macs

01:02:22   at their desks need the ability to do that type of stuff and are going to need it for

01:02:27   the foreseeable future.

01:02:28   So if you cut them off, then you're just marginalizing the Mac too much, I think, because they would

01:02:33   be eaten up by iOS on one side and you abandon everybody else who's using those features

01:02:37   on the Mac.

01:02:38   And so that's a danger zone as well.

01:02:40   But the general idea of like, let me just close my eyes and open them again, and the

01:02:45   Mac, at the very least, solves one or two or three of the biggest problems.

01:02:49   It still wouldn't be solving the file system problem, even with the chroot stuff and everything.

01:02:54   But at least you'd solve app install, management, drivers.

01:02:59   Regular users wouldn't have to see disk images anymore.

01:03:04   Settings and preferences would be more coherent and familiar because they're used to iOS.

01:03:08   Just those wins would be huge.

01:03:10   And if you can get those wins while also allowing people to do their work in the old way if

01:03:15   they want to, like that's, talk about progressive disclosure, like no one, if it's a developer

01:03:20   mode or whatever, like no one, believe me, people aren't going to be like, I wish I want

01:03:23   to have developer mode turned on.

01:03:24   No, nobody wants that.

01:03:25   They want it to be simple and nice.

01:03:27   It's like Casey's grandparents, they're overjoyed when it's like, oh, this is simple.

01:03:30   I just do this, do this, and it all makes sense to me.

01:03:32   There's no place I can get into trouble.

01:03:33   They're not going to go looking for the thing to turn on developer mode.

01:03:36   That's for power users, quote unquote.

01:03:38   Yes, there is a class of person who will go looking for it and turn it on and you know

01:03:42   Because they're interested in out there, you know, they're geeks. They're nerds. That's fine

01:03:45   But regular people trust me do not want the complexity like all of us when we go into a

01:03:49   Preference of screen and we see an advanced button we click it immediately

01:03:52   Other people don't even want to go to the preference screen like they don't even want another preference screen exists

01:03:56   They probably don't know the parent screen is it's like it doesn't need to exist. They just want it to work and work fine

01:04:01   So I'm pretty much with Marco that I would love a Mac that work like this

01:04:06   As long as I had the option to you know, the developer mode or the way to do other stuff. I just I'm not sure

01:04:13   How long it will take to get there?

01:04:16   Whether Apple has the will and wants to dedicate the resources to get there

01:04:21   Because it just seems like still a much more straightforward path to continue to enhance iOS

01:04:27   I feel like iOS is getting this right iOS is still getting more sophisticated at a faster rate than the Mac is getting simpler

01:04:33   Which is fine with me as an old Mac user, but if I start drawing lines on graphs and

01:04:38   seeing how this ends up, it just seems to me that unless Apple has a massively renewed

01:04:43   interest in the Mac, that iOS will eventually overtake it because for whatever their interest

01:04:49   is in the Mac, their interest in iOS seems much stronger on the phone and still even

01:04:55   a little bit stronger on the iPad.

01:04:58   And who knows what other weird devices they're planning.

01:05:00   I mean, you've got the Watch Store on the mix there too.

01:05:02   iOS as a legacy free basis for innovation seems like a much easier path

01:05:08   than continuing to bang their head against the Mac. You know the by and

01:05:13   large I agree with you guys but I can't help but think a couple things. One, it

01:05:19   almost sounds like you're saying I want the good parts of iOS and and none of

01:05:24   the parts that bother me and that's okay like I mean yeah that does sound good

01:05:29   in and of itself, but I mean, for two people that really don't seem to be too terribly

01:05:36   interested in the iPad, it's interesting hearing you say, "Ooh, I'd love all that stuff on

01:05:41   the iPad."

01:05:42   Who's people of those?

01:05:43   I use the iPad every day.

01:05:44   So do I.

01:05:45   I use the iPad more than I use my Mac.

01:05:46   Well, I can't say that, but I do use the iPad at home.

01:05:48   At home, I use—definitely.

01:05:49   Obviously, I work all day on a Mac, so that's the majority of my time, but in my house,

01:05:54   I use my iPad literally every day, and many days go by when I don't wake my Mac up from

01:05:58   - Well, but I think to clarify this,

01:06:02   it's not that all of iOS is bad,

01:06:04   there's tons of great stuff in iOS,

01:06:05   there's tons of advantages of iOS.

01:06:08   There's a, between the way iPads work

01:06:12   and the way Mac OS works, there's a huge difference

01:06:16   in interaction paradigm, the whole difference

01:06:20   between being, you know, Mac OS is very file-centric,

01:06:24   like most PCOSs, where as iOS is app-centric,

01:06:28   like these are massive differences

01:06:30   in just the way these systems work.

01:06:32   Of course you can take some of what's good about one

01:06:35   and apply it to the other.

01:06:37   The only question is, where's your starting point

01:06:39   and where are you going?

01:06:40   And as Jon said, it's a lot easier to make iOS

01:06:44   more capable than to make Mac OS simpler.

01:06:47   However, no matter what you do to iOS,

01:06:50   it's still going to feel like a big phone

01:06:53   that's app-centric and not file-centric and everything else

01:06:56   'cause that's just like the entire design of the system.

01:06:58   Whereas on the Mac, if what you want

01:07:01   is the PC style of computing,

01:07:05   it is totally possible with something like this crazy scheme

01:07:09   that this crazy comment that is probably BS,

01:07:11   it is totally possible to take the best

01:07:14   of PC style computing, make it still work

01:07:17   the way that people who want that are accustomed to,

01:07:21   but bring in the modern advantages of iOS.

01:07:24   - Yeah, that summary makes a lot more sense to me.

01:07:27   - Imagine if you gave your grandparents

01:07:30   this Mac described in here.

01:07:33   I think with the possible exception

01:07:35   of the keyboard being intimidating,

01:07:37   they could be just as delighted

01:07:38   because from their perspective,

01:07:41   if it's simple and they can figure out how to use it,

01:07:43   like if it was basically as simple

01:07:45   as the only way you could launch applications

01:07:46   is with Launchpad.

01:07:47   Launchpad was always visible in the thing.

01:07:49   It would probably have to be touch, which is another issue entirely in terms of bridging

01:07:54   that divide.

01:07:55   But if they were never faced with the complexity of an OpenSave dialog box, or never had to

01:08:00   look at a bunch of files or little documents on the desktop, or never even looked at the

01:08:04   desktop and it was just basically they'll have the simplicity of an iPad, but happened

01:08:08   to be a Mac, they would be just as delighted because they just want to accomplish a task.

01:08:13   task is video, you know, a video conference with with my family and be able to send emails

01:08:19   or whatever. And you and I could say, oh, if you had a MacBook adorable, you could do

01:08:22   it just fine. But the difference between a MacBook adorable and an iPad to them is huge.

01:08:27   So all you need to do to delight them with a Mac is make it so that when they use it,

01:08:32   it is just as simple as an iPad. It can still have lurking under the covers all the other

01:08:37   complexity. The file system stuff is a place where we continue to punt and Apple continues

01:08:42   to punt. I hold out hope that there is still a better way to collaborate on things than the

01:08:47   completely app-centric island model of iOS and the completely file-centric world of the PC, but

01:08:53   considering no one has figured it out yet, you know, we'll just leave that off to the future.

01:08:56   But again, we are talking about the future of computing, not the present. But anyway,

01:09:00   that's why I think this type of Mac is appealing, because it will start to blur the lines that we're

01:09:08   we're all thinking in terms of,

01:09:09   because once something like this appears on the scene,

01:09:12   it's not, we can't have the same conversation anymore.

01:09:14   It's a different conversation entirely.

01:09:16   - Yeah, the thing that I'm curious to see

01:09:21   if this becomes real one day,

01:09:23   and if the three of us are still blathering on on the show,

01:09:27   is what are the restrictions and how egregious are they?

01:09:31   And I mean, Marco talked about this some,

01:09:33   but like, you know, if there's a developer mode,

01:09:36   what does that really give you?

01:09:37   And do you have file system access just to your change-rooted route area?

01:09:43   Can you get all the way to the route route?

01:09:45   Can I install a kernel extension?

01:09:47   Would I want to?

01:09:49   I just can't help but feel like, let's say this dropped on our laps tomorrow, and Marco

01:09:56   or you or me or all three of us buy one.

01:09:59   I think inevitably what would happen is it would put roadblocks in our way in ways we

01:10:04   find frustrating.

01:10:06   And what I'm not sure about is, would your average developer, when looking to his or

01:10:11   her left and seeing the Touch Bar MacBook Pro, and then looking to his or her right

01:10:16   and seeing this phantom arm-based Mac, I mean, certainly I would choose the Touch Bar MacBook

01:10:22   Pro because it doesn't limit me at all.

01:10:24   And this hypothetical new Mac, while it does fix a lot of problems for people in general,

01:10:30   I don't think it solves any problem that I'm seeing today.

01:10:34   And so I can just see, I have visions of this being like a less extreme version of me saying,

01:10:41   "Well, I don't like working on the iPad because I feel like it constrains me, and I feel like

01:10:45   the Mac is freeing."

01:10:46   Because that is how I feel.

01:10:48   And I think that this hypothetical new ARM Mac would be a lot of the same in that regard

01:10:53   if perhaps a little bit less of it.

01:10:56   - A lot of what we would want as developers could be accomplished through VMs.

01:11:01   - True.

01:11:02   Like if it was still possible to have virtual machines

01:11:06   running on this in some form,

01:11:07   a lot of this could be solved by containering

01:11:09   and by virtual machines.

01:11:10   Of like, you know, right now, like oh jeez,

01:11:13   I just, I lost a day this week on Monday.

01:11:16   I spent a whole day finally fixing my local Apache

01:11:21   and PHP MySQL installations between my iMac and my laptop,

01:11:26   both of which, my laptop never had a working one

01:11:29   'cause I did a clean install when I got it

01:11:31   and I just never finished setting it up

01:11:32   and fixing Homebrew and fixing PHP

01:11:35   and fixing the built-in Apache

01:11:36   to use the right version of PHP and all this crap.

01:11:40   And I tried MAMP and then I didn't like it

01:11:42   so I stopped trying MAMP and like fiddling

01:11:44   with all this stuff that's like all over the file system,

01:11:47   all the stuff that Homebrew puts

01:11:49   and different other package managers do it

01:11:51   and then Homebrew complains

01:11:52   that other package managers exist.

01:11:53   And it's like dealing with all this crap

01:11:56   all over the file system that gets upgraded

01:11:57   when the system gets upgraded

01:11:58   that I'm trying to put my own stuff into

01:12:00   and edit the config files and everything else.

01:12:03   During a lot of that, I'm like, you know,

01:12:05   why don't I just install VirtualBox

01:12:07   and just make a Linux VM

01:12:09   and just run all the stuff in there and be fine.

01:12:12   - Try Docker.

01:12:13   You've got a modern enough Mac that you can run Docker.

01:12:15   - I know I should know about Docker.

01:12:17   I know nothing about Docker.

01:12:18   I know the general high-level concept of what it is.

01:12:22   I've never seen it, never used it,

01:12:24   no idea how it works, but anyway.

01:12:27   - You should try it before you go the full VM route.

01:12:29   - And in the meantime, you should compile everything

01:12:31   from source and install in user local like I do.

01:12:34   - Well, and I did actually, I eventually moved

01:12:37   to the full Homebrew setup.

01:12:40   Took me a while to realize that Homebrew installs

01:12:41   its own version of Apache.

01:12:43   But it did finally do that, but it was so much messing around

01:12:48   and so much crap, and I know that future OS updates

01:12:51   will probably break it.

01:12:52   - Never touch the system files.

01:12:54   You can only mess in user local.

01:12:56   Do not touch anything else.

01:12:57   Pretend it doesn't exist.

01:12:59   - Yeah, and I did eventually move to that system,

01:13:00   but my point is, that is not that different

01:13:03   from what if on this hypothetical, you know,

01:13:07   next generation Mac OS lockdown mode,

01:13:10   which would be the only mode,

01:13:12   what if in this OS, developer mode existed,

01:13:15   which I think, again, I do think that developer mode

01:13:17   needs to exist, where you can just compile stuff,

01:13:20   or you can run open source software

01:13:22   that is compiled from source

01:13:23   through package managers or whatever else.

01:13:25   Somehow you can run open source stuff,

01:13:26   you can build it yourself and just run it,

01:13:28   and somehow there needs to be a way to distribute software

01:13:33   out of the app store with developer ID, gatekeeper,

01:13:35   whatever, so given those two exceptions,

01:13:39   suppose developer mode is rooted in such a way

01:13:42   that you basically get your own version of user local

01:13:45   in this little virtualized environment

01:13:46   within your home directory.

01:13:48   That's not that different from what we have now,

01:13:50   and that's totally fine.

01:13:51   We could totally work with that.

01:13:52   It would be fine.

01:13:54   As long as there's still a way to have a terminal

01:13:57   and a way to compile software you get from other places,

01:14:00   all of these workflows don't break.

01:14:02   Just the file paths might change slightly.

01:14:04   That's it.

01:14:05   - Yeah, it could be done well, like,

01:14:07   so that you don't feel constrained, in case you like,

01:14:10   so you don't feel like you're suddenly trapped,

01:14:11   because it would just be a matter of coming onto the machine

01:14:13   and flipping a few switches and you'd be like,

01:14:14   "Ah, back to normal."

01:14:15   But really, the ultimate cure for this is the same thing

01:14:19   that solved the exact same situation and the change

01:14:21   from classic Mac OS to OS X, which was a big increase

01:14:26   simplicity and downgrade in customizability with the elimination of

01:14:30   whole categories of interfaces and ways of working and lots of third-party

01:14:35   things being replaced by first-party things that could not be enhanced or

01:14:40   replaced in a supported manner. The solution is, guess what, there is no more

01:14:45   classic Mac OS. So, nah. Like, that was the solution. It's like, well, you

01:14:49   know, go use Windows or Linux or this is the future of the Mac. Like, I don't

01:14:53   envision the Mac described in this this comment here existing alongside the

01:14:59   other Macs for any appreciable amount of time there would be a transition and

01:15:03   you're either you're on board or you're not and you know like take it like

01:15:06   that's exactly how it would have to work and especially if they go there by

01:15:09   increments but again if you could blink and you know open your eyes and this

01:15:12   thing was here they wouldn't keep them both around the old thing would go away

01:15:15   so that would basically solve the problem for you and hopefully like I

01:15:18   said you wouldn't feel construing. Well maybe Tim Cook would keep selling the

01:15:20   thing for 10 more years after it.

01:15:22   Yeah. Well, you know, the software, they're a little bit better about that. They do upgrade

01:15:26   it, but like that you wouldn't in the same way I, you know, initially a lot of classic Mac users

01:15:32   felt constrained in OS X because it was very young and slow and it was missing a lot of things.

01:15:35   It was simpler. And in some respects, I still feel constrained by some of the interface things

01:15:40   in OS X, but you get used to it and eventually it becomes the new normal and you accept that

01:15:45   it comes with many other benefits. So I would imagine that this type of Mac

01:15:49   would be power level to you if not immediately then in short order as again as long as they

01:15:54   didn't screw it up because i feel like one of the ways that apple especially today's apple could

01:15:58   massively screw this up is by going too far and cutting off all these other avenues because

01:16:03   if the mac can't support that type of user like why bother having the mac now i'm saying that's

01:16:08   the only reason for the max existence but it's like then what are you even doing you're just

01:16:12   you're squeezing the mac from both sides until it so it's basically like a really weird ios because

01:16:18   because presumably iOS would still be advancing.

01:16:20   So it's like this really weird iOS version

01:16:21   that can't do the things that a Mac used to do,

01:16:24   but isn't as simple as iOS,

01:16:25   and they put all these resources into morphing the Mac

01:16:28   into this thing, and it's like, what's the point?

01:16:30   At that point, you have to concede

01:16:32   that Microsoft had the right approach,

01:16:33   and that you've just been wasting your time

01:16:34   with this dual OS strategy as you shave one of your OSes

01:16:37   from both sides until all that's left

01:16:39   is this little skinny spindle that just topples over.

01:16:41   - Well, and if they did this, again, like I said earlier,

01:16:45   We haven't had a major OS transition in a while from Apple,

01:16:49   not since '99 or whenever it was.

01:16:51   John, I'm sure, has some idea of when that was.

01:16:54   - 2001 was 10.1?

01:16:55   - There you go. - Or 10.0?

01:16:56   - Yeah. - That's my guess.

01:16:58   - Yeah, so we haven't had a transition since then.

01:17:01   In the Windows world, they have them a little more often,

01:17:04   but it still doesn't come that often.

01:17:05   And when you have a major OS transition like that,

01:17:09   one of the luxuries of this, I mean, it's painful,

01:17:13   no question, it's painful.

01:17:14   it's time consuming, for a while there's a transition period

01:17:18   that just sucks for everybody.

01:17:20   However, it is an opportunity to modernize app frameworks,

01:17:25   to add new capabilities, to do things,

01:17:29   to basically take the opportunity that you have,

01:17:33   that you're kind of forcing app makers to do something new,

01:17:36   to do a major update or to even do a rewrite,

01:17:41   to take the opportunity to make it better for everybody.

01:17:44   So for instance, some of the things they could do

01:17:46   with the Mac if they did this,

01:17:48   and if they presumably broke a lot of old apps,

01:17:50   they could finally make a more unified UI framework for one.

01:17:55   Like make UI kit for the Mac,

01:17:58   and I don't mean make everything

01:17:59   look like navigation controllers

01:18:00   and make it all function the same way in the UI,

01:18:02   but there's some of the simple low-hanging fruit,

01:18:04   like unify the way table views load their data,

01:18:09   and make it so we don't have NSColor and UIColor anymore,

01:18:12   and stuff like that.

01:18:13   There's a lot of stuff they could do

01:18:14   to unify those two frameworks.

01:18:16   They could do things like, as I mentioned previously,

01:18:18   cellular Macs, because they could implement

01:18:21   better control over networking and do all this stuff.

01:18:24   Like, it would give them the opportunity to,

01:18:29   it would force us to live for a while

01:18:32   with incompatible software, with oh, well we can't do this

01:18:35   in the new OS yet because this app hasn't updated

01:18:38   or whatever, we have to drag along Microsoft and Adobe

01:18:40   or whatever else.

01:18:41   But then when we got there, it could be so much better

01:18:44   because app makers have been forced to update.

01:18:46   Right now, the Mac software ecosystem is,

01:18:48   you know, there are some bright spots,

01:18:51   but a lot of it's just a graveyard,

01:18:52   because most people who make Mac apps,

01:18:55   it's a low priority for them,

01:18:57   because they can keep making the same old app

01:18:59   over and over again, and it's fine,

01:19:01   and they can focus their efforts on iOS and stuff.

01:19:03   If the Mac changes, yes, some of them will get lost,

01:19:08   but the ones that wanna stay on the Mac

01:19:09   will have to put effort into it.

01:19:11   and that will make their apps better,

01:19:12   that will make it better for all of us.

01:19:13   So like, there would be a substantial silver lining,

01:19:17   not to mention all the benefits of the OS itself,

01:19:20   as I said, of things like the better security,

01:19:23   the better sandboxing of the apps,

01:19:24   like not having their crap go all over the system.

01:19:27   This could be really good on a number of ways

01:19:30   if something like this were to happen.

01:19:32   It would definitely be painful,

01:19:34   and some stuff that you could do now on Mac OS,

01:19:37   you'd never be able to do on this.

01:19:39   but look at, trying to get back together,

01:19:42   look at how many people do everything they need to do

01:19:46   on phones and iPads.

01:19:48   This can do more than that.

01:19:51   Everyone who says they can't do stuff on iOS,

01:19:54   sometimes it's because of a capability that iOS

01:19:56   just will never be able to do because of its security model,

01:19:59   but sometimes it's just because it doesn't have

01:20:00   a very good multi-tasking model

01:20:01   or a very good file system model

01:20:03   or things that this would actually have.

01:20:06   So I think it would be a painful transition

01:20:10   to go to something like this,

01:20:12   but it wouldn't be impossible.

01:20:14   We would all grumble, we'd all complain,

01:20:16   but then we'd get on board.

01:20:18   A few things wouldn't be possible anymore forever,

01:20:20   and we'd deal with it, we'd find new solutions.

01:20:23   Like if I couldn't use Audio Hijack anymore

01:20:26   to record this phone call from Skype,

01:20:28   then we'd probably either stop using Skype,

01:20:31   or we could switch to one of those

01:20:33   web-based podcast recorder things.

01:20:34   There's already like five of those,

01:20:36   and there's only gonna be more by the time

01:20:37   this thing ever exists.

01:20:38   So there's always workarounds, there's always things,

01:20:42   time would solve any pain that would be there.

01:20:45   So I think even though this is probably all wrong

01:20:49   and based on this one weird post on Slashdot

01:20:52   that's probably BS, this kinda sounds cool

01:20:55   and if it happened, assuming it had those two exceptions,

01:20:59   developer mode and developer ID distribution,

01:21:02   I think that'd be really nice.

01:21:04   - You have to throw cold water on this,

01:21:05   we have to bring back to our old brief frame.

01:21:06   Anytime we discuss anything radical happening to the Mac

01:21:09   is like, yeah, but that would cost a lot of money

01:21:11   and take a lot of time and resources.

01:21:12   And does Apple want to put that much money

01:21:14   into its legacy platform

01:21:16   or however you want to describe the Mac?

01:21:18   Because sales volume wise,

01:21:20   you can justify almost any investment in iOS.

01:21:22   Can you justify that same?

01:21:25   And the iPad is along for the ride

01:21:26   because even though the iPad's volume is similar to the Mac,

01:21:29   guess what, it's got the same OS as the phone.

01:21:31   So congratulations, you get a lot of development stuff,

01:21:33   quote unquote, for free.

01:21:34   but this would be a hell of an investment in the Mac.

01:21:36   It would be on the scale of the classic to OS X transition,

01:21:39   or at least close, maybe not that big, but it would be close.

01:21:41   And it would be the biggest investment

01:21:43   in the Mac software-wise in many, many, many years.

01:21:47   And so I think it could, you know,

01:21:50   I'm not saying it couldn't be.

01:21:51   The right people pitch it.

01:21:53   It could be sold within the company,

01:21:54   but it would be a departure

01:21:56   from the historic investment in the Mac, which has been good.

01:22:00   And it's, you know, it hasn't been as high

01:22:01   since the transition from OS is as, you know,

01:22:03   as is appropriate or even the transition

01:22:05   for CPU architecture,

01:22:06   but this would be an architecture transition

01:22:09   and an OS transition that is the second biggest one

01:22:11   that Apple has ever done.

01:22:12   And you know, we're all on board for it

01:22:16   and would be ready for it,

01:22:17   but I'm not entirely sure that Apple is ready

01:22:20   to put that money into the Mac,

01:22:22   which not that that is the most dubious thing

01:22:25   about this random slash.com.

01:22:28   But again, like I wouldn't characterize it

01:22:30   as novel or interesting.

01:22:31   characterizes it as a reiteration of the prototypical idea of a Mac merged with iOS resurfacing

01:22:39   now in a new context. And the new context is the new Apple and the new state of Intel

01:22:44   versus ARM and the new sales figures for iPad and all of us new people being older and wiser

01:22:51   and having seen more of the tech world reconsidering the same thing.

01:22:54   Well, in that case, I will put it in terms they will understand. You can sell iPad hardware

01:22:59   for $1,500.

01:23:01   - They already do.

01:23:02   That's not including all the cases.

01:23:03   (laughing)

01:23:04   - Wow.

01:23:05   And that's our end.

01:23:07   - Thanks to our three sponsors this week,

01:23:09   Betterment, Squarespace, and Setapp,

01:23:11   and we will see you next week.

01:23:12   - It's a lot better hardware for MacBook Pro prices.

01:23:15   2,600.

01:23:16   - There you go.

01:23:17   (upbeat music)

01:23:20   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:23:22   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:23:24   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:23:26   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:23:27   Oh it was accidental John didn't do any research

01:23:32   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental

01:23:38   It was accidental And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:23:45   And if you're into Twitter You can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:23:54   So that's Casey List, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-Marco-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:24:06   It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:24:09   They didn't mean to (accidental, accidental)

01:24:14   Tech podcast so long

01:24:19   So Casey, I hear you're having some car trouble.

01:24:23   - Yes, indeed.

01:24:26   So I brought my car in to get the oil changed.

01:24:30   I don't care that you think that's preposterous.

01:24:32   Don't care.

01:24:33   I don't have the time to change my own oil.

01:24:35   - Why is that preposterous?

01:24:36   'Cause are you talking to us

01:24:38   or the audience who's scolding you?

01:24:38   - No, the audience.

01:24:39   I'm hopefully preventing all the people--

01:24:41   - No one in the audience is scolding you

01:24:42   about not changing your own oil.

01:24:43   - Oh, okay, you can send a tweet to @Saracusa

01:24:47   about how angry you are that I'm not changing my own oil.

01:24:49   - Even people who change their own oil,

01:24:51   I feel like now realize that they are outliers.

01:24:54   - Probably.

01:24:55   So I had a coupon, I was very excited, I had a coupon,

01:24:58   so my BMW oil change was supposed to be $90,

01:25:01   which I understand is expensive.

01:25:03   - Wait, you were getting into the dealership?

01:25:04   Now it's time for me to scold you.

01:25:06   - Yeah, I was going to the dealership.

01:25:08   - Now you're gonna hear from them.

01:25:10   - Yep, so okay, I understand I am not innocent

01:25:14   and I have made mistakes, mistakes have been made.

01:25:18   - I do the same thing.

01:25:20   - Well, you don't get your oil changed anymore.

01:25:21   - But anyway. - But I did.

01:25:22   - If you're going to the dealership anyway, okay.

01:25:25   But if you're going to the dealership

01:25:26   to get your oil changed, no, don't do that.

01:25:28   - Well, I don't trust like a Jiffy Lube

01:25:31   or anything like that.

01:25:32   - Oh, geez.

01:25:33   You don't have a Ferrari.

01:25:34   We have to go to this special little Italian person.

01:25:37   - It requires synthetic.

01:25:38   It doesn't matter.

01:25:39   The point is-- - By the way,

01:25:40   for the record, I think it might be covered

01:25:42   when you have a lease.

01:25:43   I'm not sure, but just for the record there.

01:25:45   - If it's free, then yes, yes, by all means.

01:25:48   - I believe they are.

01:25:48   It was free for me when I first owned the car,

01:25:50   'cause I still had some of the maintenance program left.

01:25:52   - Yeah, it was like five years, right?

01:25:54   - I forget, it was four, I think, it doesn't really matter.

01:25:57   But anyway, so I had my $90 coupon,

01:26:00   I'm all excited with myself.

01:26:02   The wherewithal to ask for a loaner,

01:26:03   which I was very glad for, and we'll see why in a moment.

01:26:06   But here's my $90 coupon,

01:26:08   I should expect to see you later today.

01:26:10   I probably didn't even need to bother getting a loaner,

01:26:12   I'm going to drive it the handful of miles to work,

01:26:15   and then probably immediately later,

01:26:17   you know, a handful of miles back, and that'll be that. I get a call as I'm out to lunch,

01:26:22   and they say in so many words, "Oh, things relating to the drivetrain in the front..."

01:26:28   I have an all-wheel drive BMW before you get all angry. "Things relating to the drivetrain

01:26:33   in the front, like tie rods and bushings and things of that nature, and the adjustment screw

01:26:38   that you use in order to do an alignment has seized, things are breaking, that'll be $1,000,

01:26:43   please. Oh, and you'll get your car back tomorrow because we don't have all the parts.

01:26:46   Fine. So in and of itself, okay, fine. The car has almost 70,000 miles on it, if I remember correctly.

01:26:54   It is not unreasonable that things would be going wrong. But in the last year and change,

01:27:03   I had a five or six thousand dollar repair of the VANOS system. I had a thousand dollar

01:27:11   water pump issue that was almost last month.

01:27:15   It was just barely in December.

01:27:17   And now I have this $1,000 issue.

01:27:19   And I think this is the universe giving me a sign

01:27:22   that this car is not long for this world.

01:27:24   So I'm getting some pressure from Aaron,

01:27:27   and I think it's completely justified to unload the thing

01:27:30   because it's just, I can't keep the damn thing on the road.

01:27:33   And at first I was resisting,

01:27:35   but now I'm to the point that I'm like, screw it.

01:27:37   This thing is not worth my time anymore.

01:27:39   I wanna get rid of it.

01:27:41   Now on paper the right answer is get a brand new 3 Series, maybe an M3 if I want to spend

01:27:45   too much money.

01:27:47   Maintenance will be covered, at least in the beginning, it'll have a nice big fat warranty.

01:27:51   Problem solved.

01:27:52   Except I feel like I've been burned by BMW.

01:27:55   I think new ones are, as I think we talked about recently, new ones are just unaffordable.

01:28:02   And then that becomes, okay, well fine, get a pre-owned one.

01:28:04   Well, I just did that.

01:28:05   And yes, this hypothetical new pre-owned one would be with the CPO warranty, which goes

01:28:12   to like 100,000 miles.

01:28:13   And yes, that's possible.

01:28:14   But even if I'm not paying out of pocket constantly for my car to be in the shop, my car's still

01:28:19   in the damn shop all the time.

01:28:21   And I feel like the moment a BMW gets past lease time, things start falling apart.

01:28:29   And I have friends that have had similar experiences.

01:28:32   I just don't want to be bothered by it.

01:28:34   So I have many options in front of me.

01:28:38   If you recall, my requirements, which are somewhat loose, are I don't want front-wheel

01:28:44   drive, I want it to get to 60 in under six seconds.

01:28:47   I don't care that that's not necessary on regular roads.

01:28:51   That's what I want.

01:28:52   I want three pedals, and that's mostly it.

01:28:56   So what are my options?

01:28:59   I'm only thinking about new right now, and then I'm going to start trying to rack my

01:29:04   brain for used, because I'm not opposed to going used.

01:29:08   But looking at it, I think every single one of my options has problems.

01:29:16   A friend of mine actually just written in, Cadillac ATS, great call, but the infotainment

01:29:21   is from everything I've ever understood, unusable.

01:29:24   Just utterly unusable.

01:29:26   And I don't know if it has carplay.

01:29:29   I'd have to check that out.

01:29:30   So that is a potential.

01:29:33   If I'm willing to--

01:29:34   - It's also hideous.

01:29:35   - Yeah, it's too ugly to be seen in.

01:29:37   Sorry, great car.

01:29:38   Too ugly.

01:29:39   - Fairly hideous.

01:29:40   I'm not arguing.

01:29:41   Fairly hideous.

01:29:42   Okay, so let's just, it sounds like the brain trust has eliminated that.

01:29:46   So if I'm willing to have wrong-wheel drive, Focus ST.

01:29:50   The problem with that, other than it being a Ford, which in and of itself is fine, but

01:29:55   It's front-wheel drive, which I don't particularly care for.

01:29:58   And then the RS is also, is it the RS?

01:30:01   Whatever the super hot-roddy one is.

01:30:04   That one is just too 18-year-old for me.

01:30:07   I'm turning 35 next month, just no way.

01:30:09   The ST is a reasonable compromise, but wrong-wheel drive.

01:30:13   If I'm willing to go back to Deutschland,

01:30:15   I have the Volkswagen GTI, the Golf R,

01:30:17   which is the thing that I think I'm most interested in,

01:30:19   the A4, and the S3, which is basically a Golf R,

01:30:22   but in sedan form, if I'm not mistaken.

01:30:24   What?

01:30:24   Come on.

01:30:26   - What's what?

01:30:27   What do you want to go over?

01:30:28   - You listed a series of little Euro hatchbacks

01:30:29   and then you lump the A4 on the S3

01:30:31   and then like, oh, it's the same thing.

01:30:33   - No, the A4 is wildly different.

01:30:35   The S3, I thought, was basically the drivetrain

01:30:37   of the Gulf R.

01:30:38   I am on dating--

01:30:39   - No, yeah, under the cover, sure,

01:30:40   but it's a whole, like, from the outside,

01:30:42   it's the difference between driving around in a rabbit

01:30:45   and driving around in a regular car.

01:30:47   - You're dating yourself even calling it a rabbit.

01:30:49   - Here's the thing, I mean, I could rule out

01:30:51   all four of these right now for you, because--

01:30:53   - Oh, the A4 is a good car. - No, you can't.

01:30:54   - It's a little boring, but I think Keisha should try it

01:30:56   before he decides it's too boring,

01:30:57   'cause it's nice looking, if it has the features he wants,

01:30:59   it's reasonably nice inside and out.

01:31:01   The main slam against it is that it's more boring

01:31:04   than the BMWs, but I think he should test drive it.

01:31:06   - Is the A4 even available in stick?

01:31:09   - Yes.

01:31:10   - Oh, it is?

01:31:10   Okay, I didn't know, I thought it was.

01:31:11   Anyway. - Yes.

01:31:12   Oh no, it is.

01:31:13   - All right, so the A4 is basically a three series

01:31:17   that's slightly worse.

01:31:18   Like, I-- - Eh, it depends

01:31:20   on what you want. (laughing)

01:31:21   - If you want less, if you want it smoother,

01:31:25   kind of nicer, even keel experience.

01:31:27   - If you want a crappier interior and higher prices,

01:31:30   crappier interior, no.

01:31:32   - I would disagree with you there.

01:31:33   - They look nice, they don't feel nice.

01:31:35   - I'm not sure I agree with you there.

01:31:38   - Also, iDrive is way better than their weirdo system.

01:31:40   - iDrive is light years better than MMI,

01:31:44   at least as of about a year ago.

01:31:46   Now, I think it might be an MMI.

01:31:47   - I forget if the A4 has the updated one

01:31:48   or if it's still in the old one.

01:31:49   - Yeah, see, I don't know either.

01:31:51   I thought it had the new hotness one, which I have yet to try.

01:31:56   But the A4 supports CarPlay.

01:31:58   I don't think it's wireless CarPlay, but it's CarPlay.

01:32:03   The S3 is basically a Golf R, although a buddy of mine is saying it might be DSG only, which

01:32:10   might eliminate it from contention.

01:32:13   Then the Golf R, obviously.

01:32:15   All of these are appealing because they are not front-wheel drive, but that's going back

01:32:21   to Germany and I can't tell if this is a German car problem or if it's a BMW problem.

01:32:27   It's a expensive car problem because every car around 60,000 miles, especially if you

01:32:32   live in the Northeast, which you don't really, but if you did, like around 60 or 70,000,

01:32:36   crap starts falling apart and breaking or whatever.

01:32:39   The problem is that when crap falls apart and breaks on a BMW, it costs a bazillion

01:32:41   dollars to fix.

01:32:43   That's where your problem is.

01:32:44   Any car you keep for that number of miles, you're going to have, like, if you have a

01:32:47   car for 100,000 miles you have to replace the water pump it's not a surprise I

01:32:51   guess nothing that happens right that's but if the water pump cost you 1,500

01:32:54   bucks then you're you know you're driving BMW right that's the thing is

01:32:59   that in and of itself any one of these repairs fine whatever well maybe not the

01:33:02   Vanno is exploding but generally engine stuff I feel like if you had a Honda it

01:33:07   would still be fine you would not need to put that much money into the engine

01:33:11   the entire body would rust off the car before the engine would need any work on

01:33:14   Honda. So yeah, so I could go back to Germany, Gullfar, A4, S3 apparently is definitely DSG

01:33:25   only, from what I'm being told, so that's eliminated from contention. It's also really

01:33:29   overpriced for what you're buying. That's probably true. I forgot to mention the GTI,

01:33:34   well I think I mentioned the GTI, I've heard the Performance Pack is phenomenal, the GTI

01:33:39   performance pack, however that is also wrong wheel drive. So, so far, still in contention,

01:33:45   Focus ST, wrong wheel drive, GTI performance pack, wrong wheel drive, R, German, A4, German,

01:33:51   a little bit boring. And then now I get into like the real slim pickins. If I'm willing to go

01:33:57   extremely slowly, I could get an Accord, which I cannot option the way I want, or a Mazda 6,

01:34:03   which I cannot option the way I want.

01:34:06   And then if I'm willing to live inside of my car

01:34:09   because I will be divorced and never get to see

01:34:11   my wife or child again, I could get a Tesla.

01:34:13   - Okay, so here's one of the big questions here is,

01:34:17   do you want this to be a car

01:34:19   that can comfortably hold your kid?

01:34:21   - Sitting here now, yes.

01:34:23   That's probably ruining everything,

01:34:25   but yeah, we're gonna go with yes on this one.

01:34:27   - Because then your only options on this list

01:34:29   that can go fast are the Model S, that's it.

01:34:32   - No, that's not true.

01:34:33   The A4 is-- - The A4 goes plenty fast.

01:34:35   - It's about the same speed as my car.

01:34:37   It's a little slower, but not too much slower.

01:34:39   - Don't do the A4.

01:34:40   If you're gonna get-- - And the R, R's fast.

01:34:42   - Otherwise I'll get the A4.

01:34:43   I think you need to go to a dealer,

01:34:44   and Casey needs to go to a dealer and get one of the A4.

01:34:46   Now you're not buying, just go in there to look at it.

01:34:49   Maybe take a test drive, poke around,

01:34:50   you're not even thinking of buying, just check it out.

01:34:52   'Cause I feel like Marco's anti-Audi bias is--

01:34:56   - No, Audi's great. - Unwarranted.

01:34:57   - Audi is great, but BMW's better.

01:34:59   It's simple as that.

01:35:00   Audi makes great cars.

01:35:01   - Not the current ones, not the current 3 Series

01:35:03   with the weirdo electric steering and the ugly outsides

01:35:05   and the bazillion dollars worth of options.

01:35:08   - Well, but I mean, talk about bazillion dollars

01:35:09   worth of options, Audi is also the same way

01:35:11   about the option pricing and the repair costs

01:35:13   and everything else.

01:35:15   Basically, in most of the downsides, they're the same,

01:35:18   or roughly the same, and I think BMW's upsides are better,

01:35:22   basically, I think Audi's are, again, they're nice cars,

01:35:25   some of them are really nice cars,

01:35:27   But the interior, I've always thought

01:35:30   felt noticeably cheaper than BMWs.

01:35:32   - I deeply disagree. - The media system

01:35:34   is a major step backwards.

01:35:36   - I deeply agree. - Yeah. (laughs)

01:35:39   And they, I'm actually kind of surprised

01:35:42   that they still offer a stick,

01:35:42   'cause I think most of their cars,

01:35:43   they don't even offer that as an option anymore,

01:35:45   although to be fair, BMW is not that different

01:35:46   in that regard.

01:35:48   So basically-- - So yeah, you can get,

01:35:49   you can get an A4 Premium Plus with all-wheel drive,

01:35:54   and actually the only available transmission

01:35:57   is the six-speed.

01:35:59   - It does have CarPlay, by the way.

01:36:00   I was just flipping through their website,

01:36:01   they got a big screenshot of it.

01:36:02   - So there you go.

01:36:03   It's not wireless, but it is CarPlay, nevertheless.

01:36:06   So that would, so if--

01:36:08   - Wait, wait, wait, hold on, the A4, which one?

01:36:10   The Premium Plus?

01:36:11   - Just the plain old A4.

01:36:12   I'm just swapping through the things.

01:36:13   - With front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive?

01:36:15   - No, all-wheel drive.

01:36:17   - Oh, okay, they have that and a stick?

01:36:19   - Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

01:36:19   - Oh, that's a six-speed manual.

01:36:20   - It's basically my car.

01:36:21   I mean, it's a, well, it's a four-cylinder turbo,

01:36:23   but otherwise it's basically my car,

01:36:24   six speed, all wheel drive, et cetera.

01:36:26   - I was nowhere that they were still making

01:36:28   all wheel drive with stick.

01:36:29   That's pretty good.

01:36:30   - Well, and I think this is new.

01:36:31   I think they just added the manual transmission option

01:36:35   like this model year, even though I think the refresh

01:36:37   happened months and months ago, maybe even

01:36:39   the last model year. - Yeah, that's the thing

01:36:40   about the time to get rid of your car.

01:36:42   It's not so much whether your car is falling apart,

01:36:44   is that the longer you wait, the less chance you have

01:36:46   to get any car with a stick.

01:36:47   - That's true. - Purely true.

01:36:48   - But I mean, you would have some warning

01:36:51   when that was going to happen.

01:36:52   But anyway, that is in broad strokes, that is true.

01:36:55   So I would say for you, I'm telling you as a friend, Casey.

01:37:00   - I'm not buying a damn Tesla, Michael.

01:37:02   - No, no, I'm telling you as a friend,

01:37:04   this is my intervention here.

01:37:05   I would rather you buy an overpriced German hatchback than--

01:37:11   - Oh, not a hatchback, no.

01:37:13   - I would rather you buy an overpriced German hatchback

01:37:16   than to have you compromise on what's really important

01:37:19   to you and to have you get an Accord or a Mazda.

01:37:22   Well that's the thing, the Accord is a nice car.

01:37:25   - But what about versus the A4?

01:37:27   Why don't you just eliminate that one?

01:37:28   I can understand what you're saying,

01:37:29   like I'd rather have you get a sporty hatchback

01:37:31   than a boring sedan, fine, right?

01:37:33   Well I'd rather have you get a sporty hatchback

01:37:34   than a sporty sedan, like the A4?

01:37:36   No.

01:37:37   - The A4 is fine, you know, you've driven one before, Casey,

01:37:42   you know what they are.

01:37:43   - Yes, but I haven't driven one of the new ones.

01:37:46   The last one I drove was the pre-refresh version,

01:37:49   My understanding is a lot changed with this refresh.

01:37:54   - Then it's worth, it's definitely worth seeing

01:37:56   because as we know, BMW has had some shortcomings

01:37:59   with the new 3 Series.

01:38:00   - I completely agree with you guys.

01:38:01   The A4, absolutely, absolutely worth a look.

01:38:04   I think the Golf R would probably be a more exciting car

01:38:08   and certainly I'm pretty sure it'd be considerably quicker.

01:38:12   But the A4, I think would be sufficient

01:38:15   in every metric that I can think to throw at it.

01:38:19   - Also expensive to repair and maintain, by the way.

01:38:21   - Well, and that's the thing. - You're still shopping

01:38:22   in German luxury sedans, and so,

01:38:24   but especially if you got it new, you'd have a good--

01:38:27   - So here's the question.

01:38:28   Would you consider either new financing or leasing,

01:38:31   which would then take care of the maintenance issue

01:38:33   for the most part, if not entirely?

01:38:35   - Yeah, see, I mean, financing, whatever, that's, whatever.

01:38:39   - Lease it, do it, just lease it.

01:38:41   - I don't wanna lease a car, like, I don't.

01:38:43   - 'Cause then when it leases up,

01:38:44   you can get a Model 3 if you're lucky.

01:38:46   - Well, that's true.

01:38:47   So the thing with leasing is, is that in a perfect world,

01:38:51   what I want is the situation we have with Aaron's car.

01:38:55   Aaron's car has been in the shop for repairs

01:38:58   fewer times in the 10 years we've owned it,

01:39:00   well, nine and a half at this point,

01:39:02   than my car has in the last 10 months.

01:39:04   - What is it?

01:39:05   A boring, reliable Japanese car.

01:39:07   - It's a boring, reliable Japanese car.

01:39:09   - It's boring, slow, and reliable.

01:39:11   You don't want that.

01:39:12   That would crush your soul.

01:39:13   - But I want something, it will crush my soul,

01:39:15   but I want something that'll last

01:39:16   more than 10 frickin' minutes.

01:39:18   - You have it, it's called Aaron's car.

01:39:20   - Ah.

01:39:21   It's called all my Honda Accords.

01:39:23   - Yes, no look, if you want to have a boring, reliable car,

01:39:27   there's lots of great options.

01:39:29   Pretty much everything from Honda, Toyota,

01:39:31   there's lots of good options.

01:39:32   - Honda's aren't boring, Toyota's boring.

01:39:33   Honda is as exciting as it can be given the horsepower.

01:39:36   All right, I'm not saying this is,

01:39:37   this is, have you got a powerful engine in it?

01:39:39   But it is.

01:39:40   - Okay.

01:39:41   - It's a thinking man's BMW, Raves Car and Driver.

01:39:44   (laughing)

01:39:47   Okay, but anyway.

01:39:49   - Test drive one of those anyway.

01:39:50   You won't be able to find a stick to test drive,

01:39:51   but you should, well, I don't know.

01:39:53   Maybe next time you visit,

01:39:54   you can test drive mine and see what it's like.

01:39:56   - I mean, the thought has crossed my mind

01:39:58   that maybe it is worth testing it,

01:39:59   'cause, oh my God, it's just, it's bananas that all,

01:40:03   I mean, okay, I understand that what I'm about to say

01:40:06   is a bit preposterous, but all I want is a six-speed,

01:40:10   not front-wheel drive car with four doors

01:40:14   that gets to 60 in less than six seconds

01:40:18   that will last for more than 60,000 miles.

01:40:20   Is that so much to ask?

01:40:22   - How fast is this A4?

01:40:24   - I think five and a half-ish, something like that.

01:40:26   It's actually much quicker than one would think.

01:40:28   - I mean, you can go to the S4 if you want more out of it.

01:40:31   It's a lot more money though, right?

01:40:32   - I certainly wouldn't be doing that new, for sure.

01:40:35   - So here's the thing.

01:40:36   Look, I mean, this is one of those

01:40:38   project management triangle situations.

01:40:40   - It is, it is.

01:40:41   - For what you want, basically you have to either pick

01:40:45   like fast but crappy, or like slow but nice,

01:40:50   or use and expensive to maintain.

01:40:54   It's like you have to pick one of these things.

01:40:57   Or you raise the budget and you get divorced.

01:41:00   I mean one of these things has to budge,

01:41:04   or you have to be willing to tolerate something

01:41:07   that you don't want to tolerate right now.

01:41:09   So whether that is the shame of driving an Audi,

01:41:13   or whether it's-- - It's not shameful.

01:41:15   - Whether it's spending more than you wanted to spend,

01:41:18   or whether it's having more high-priced maintenance

01:41:20   down the road, or giving up your entire soul

01:41:23   and driving an Accord.

01:41:26   And I say this as somebody who bought an Accord at one time

01:41:28   and enjoyed it for a couple years.

01:41:30   - Opportunity costs, think about how much,

01:41:31   what you could buy with the money you save

01:41:33   buying the Accord and how much happier that would make you.

01:41:35   - Is there anything that would make Casey happier

01:41:37   than a fast car, Jon?

01:41:38   Come on. - Yeah, that's the thing.

01:41:39   - I understand what you're driving at, but--

01:41:42   - This is Casey we're talking about.

01:41:44   - How about college education for your children?

01:41:46   Just saying.

01:41:47   - This is not gonna make or break

01:41:48   Declan's college education for 26.

01:41:50   - Right, so therefore, I think basically

01:41:53   you have a tough decision to make.

01:41:55   Jon will push you towards the Accord.

01:41:57   - I'm pushing him towards the Audi.

01:42:00   I'm just saying the Accord isn't as bad

01:42:01   as you make it out to be, but he wants something faster,

01:42:04   so the Accord isn't it, so try the Audi.

01:42:06   - Oh yeah, basically since none of the three

01:42:09   of us have driven the current generation,

01:42:11   apparently the newest A4.

01:42:13   Yeah, I guess I've come around.

01:42:14   I think you should try that because I do find

01:42:18   the F generation of BMWs, the F30 generation of BMWs

01:42:22   to be pretty underwhelming in a lot of ways.

01:42:24   And as you mentioned, quite expensive for what you get.

01:42:27   That being said, so is the Audi.

01:42:29   However, I think it's certainly worth trying.

01:42:32   - Well, but let's go build one.

01:42:34   We can keep talking, but let's build an Audi.

01:42:36   I started down that path and I got sidetracked.

01:42:37   - It looks like there is currently no S4.

01:42:40   Is it between update generations, 'cause I just did the A4?

01:42:44   - I think that's correct.

01:42:45   What color would I get?

01:42:46   Let me turn off flux and blind myself.

01:42:48   - I don't know what color you would get.

01:42:50   - Shut up. - That would be a very--

01:42:51   - God, you're such a jerk.

01:42:53   - I don't know how to even consider picking a color for you.

01:42:56   - You gotta get with the program.

01:42:57   It's the year of the red car.

01:42:59   So that's what you gotta do, right?

01:43:01   - Oh, is it?

01:43:02   Okay, we can go red.

01:43:03   - Marco got a red car, I got a red car, come on.

01:43:06   - I'm not sure how this looks in red.

01:43:07   - It looks okay, but I wonder if we see what else.

01:43:10   Audi historically makes a very good premium black.

01:43:13   - That is a nice black, actually.

01:43:14   I can't do a black car, stop, stop, I can't do a black car.

01:43:17   - I mean, look, they have like four different shades of white.

01:43:20   Literally, they have, let's see,

01:43:22   there's Glacier White Metallic,

01:43:24   there's Florit Silver, which is so light,

01:43:25   it's basically matte, it's basically white,

01:43:27   there's Cuvee Silver, which is kind of champagne,

01:43:30   but almost white, there's Ibis White, which is another white,

01:43:34   and there's Monsoon Gray, which is a pretty light gray,

01:43:36   almost white.

01:43:37   So maybe this actually is your brand.

01:43:39   Maybe all these years talking about BMWs

01:43:41   that we've been wrong all this time

01:43:43   and you actually wanted a brand that has

01:43:45   five different shades of white on it

01:43:46   and every new car to choose from.

01:43:49   - The 19 inch wheels because I'm an idiot.

01:43:51   - No, no, no, you gotta pick the Sport Plus package.

01:43:53   Go with 18 because the 19s don't look that much better

01:43:56   than 18s and the ride will be better than 18s.

01:43:59   - You're such an old man.

01:44:00   - No, I'm just serious.

01:44:01   - He's right.

01:44:02   - What do you, it's one inch difference.

01:44:03   You're not gonna be able to eyeball it.

01:44:05   It's not like, you'll just have to deal with the fact

01:44:07   that your wheels are smaller than mine, but it'll be fine.

01:44:09   - Oh, listen to this guy.

01:44:11   - But see, and here's the thing though,

01:44:12   like performance-wise, you're roughly in like

01:44:15   the 328 category of performance here,

01:44:17   but you're spending like $45,000 at least.

01:44:21   - 47,875.

01:44:22   - That's the thing, like price-wise,

01:44:24   I think it's pretty much the same as BMW.

01:44:27   Like once you option it up the way you want it,

01:44:29   you're like, they're both very expensive

01:44:32   for what you're getting.

01:44:33   That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

01:44:34   As you know, I often argue on the other side of this.

01:44:37   But I'm just pointing out that this is not a great value

01:44:40   compared to BMW, it's gonna be about the same,

01:44:42   in the same ballpark.

01:44:44   - Doesn't, of course it doesn't mention the zero to 60 time,

01:44:46   why would it?

01:44:46   I could swear I read it-- - 5.7 seconds.

01:44:48   It's in the technical specification.

01:44:48   - Oh there you go, I was gonna say, okay.

01:44:50   I thought it was around five and a half.

01:44:51   - I mean, that's good, but is that $50,000 in 2017 good?

01:44:56   - Yeah, see now I'm coming back to the Golf R.

01:44:59   Let's see, where is that?

01:45:03   - You're too old for this car.

01:45:04   - No, I'm not.

01:45:05   - Like, how far?

01:45:06   Yeah, you're too old for this.

01:45:07   - No, I'm not.

01:45:08   Our friend Brad has one, and he's not too old for it.

01:45:11   Well, we're all the same age, but he's not.

01:45:13   - He pulls it off.

01:45:13   We wouldn't pull it off.

01:45:15   - You make a good point, actually.

01:45:17   (laughing)

01:45:18   - He's also a lot cooler than us.

01:45:20   He lives in California.

01:45:21   Like, he can pull that off.

01:45:23   We can't.

01:45:24   (laughing)

01:45:25   - You know, if you wanna go two doors,

01:45:27   speaking of jamming your kid in the back,

01:45:29   the Accord Coupe does 0.60 in 5.6 seconds.

01:45:32   I do not want to go two door.

01:45:34   Is the Volkswagen site not working for you or are my bananas?

01:45:37   - Volkswagen doesn't work for me.

01:45:38   - They're just gonna come out.

01:45:39   Oh, stop you.

01:45:41   - What about the last item on this list?

01:45:42   - Which one is that?

01:45:43   - The divorce option? - The Tesla?

01:45:45   - Yep.

01:45:45   - Yeah, it's just not.

01:45:47   It's $100,000, Marco.

01:45:49   I could buy two A4s.

01:45:50   - What about a used Model S?

01:45:52   You can get a used Model S for 50K?

01:45:55   - That's where things get interesting.

01:45:57   - Buy it from MKBHD, I don't think he wants it anymore.

01:45:59   (laughing)

01:46:00   When you talk about maintenance costs,

01:46:03   I would definitely not wanna keep a Model S

01:46:06   past the big battery powertrain warranty,

01:46:08   but I think that's 100,000 miles.

01:46:11   So if you get one that's right off lease,

01:46:13   that's like 30-ish k miles,

01:46:16   then it would probably need almost no work

01:46:21   for the next five years,

01:46:23   until you really wanted to,

01:46:25   until the mileage started getting really high,

01:46:26   and then you would probably trade it in

01:46:28   for something else at that point.

01:46:29   But because like, you know, there are used model Ss,

01:46:34   there aren't a lot of them because three years ago,

01:46:36   they weren't selling that many.

01:46:38   So, you know, there aren't many of them to choose from,

01:46:40   but they do come in, they are usually like,

01:46:42   you know, you have to like call the dealer sometimes,

01:46:44   like they're not usually gonna be--

01:46:45   - Well no, they have a list.

01:46:46   - Okay, there you go.

01:46:47   - I put it in the chat, but the problem is,

01:46:49   there's no 90 Ds, which is what you and Underscore have,

01:46:53   and I think would be a perfectly reasonable--

01:46:55   - Well, the 90 only existed for like a year and a half.

01:46:58   - Okay, well there you go.

01:46:59   So what you'd be looking at maybe would be the 85D,

01:47:01   but all of the Ds, all the dual-motor ones

01:47:05   have only existed for I think about two years or so.

01:47:08   - So the problem is I would want the dual-motor

01:47:10   for the acceleration,

01:47:11   not because I necessarily need all-wheel drive.

01:47:13   - It is better, I mean, just in general.

01:47:15   The dual-motor was a substantial improvement to the car,

01:47:17   so you do want that.

01:47:18   - So P85D, the cheapest one they have is 80 grand.

01:47:23   So I could buy--

01:47:23   - That's the P model, that's the one that's new

01:47:25   for like $130,000.

01:47:26   - That's the cheapest, the first entry they have

01:47:29   that has dual motor is the P85D for 80 grand

01:47:32   with 15,000 miles.

01:47:34   - That's kind of awesome.

01:47:35   - What do you mean that's kind of awesome?

01:47:38   That's $80,000.

01:47:38   - Do you know how fast that is?

01:47:40   That's the one that I test drew

01:47:42   and I felt like it was getting smacked in the face

01:47:44   and I said no, this is too fast.

01:47:46   - I understand that.

01:47:46   - It was a P85D.

01:47:47   - But you're talking about, I could almost buy an A4

01:47:50   and a Golf R for one of these.

01:47:53   I can't justify it.

01:47:53   - Or five accords.

01:47:55   - Or five accords, I can't justify it, I can't.

01:47:58   I'm not saying you're wrong, but--

01:47:59   - There's a 70D on here for 67,000.

01:48:02   - You could drive a different accord

01:48:03   on every day of the week.

01:48:04   (laughing)

01:48:07   - Oh my god, that 70D is a hideous color though.

01:48:13   - Yes it is, that weird like champagne,

01:48:15   it's like you spilled some champagne into some snow slush.

01:48:20   - I've seen more of the little mustache Model S's

01:48:24   and they've really grown on me

01:48:25   and now I like it better than the fish mouth.

01:48:26   - What?

01:48:27   - Get out of here.

01:48:28   - They look less hideous to me now,

01:48:30   but they still look weird.

01:48:31   Like I'm sure I'll like,

01:48:32   by the time it's time for me to renew my lease,

01:48:35   I will be okay with it,

01:48:36   but it's still weird right now.

01:48:38   - Yeah, I mean, it's worse in white obviously, right?

01:48:41   But, or in lighter colors,

01:48:42   but it's turned me around having seen them.

01:48:44   Now when I see one of the old ones, I go, ugh.

01:48:47   I mean, I never really liked the big ball gag,

01:48:48   but the pinch nose,

01:48:50   the pinch nose looks better in real life

01:48:54   than a dozen photos.

01:48:55   - Oh man, I disagree.

01:48:56   I've seen it a couple times, it is not good.

01:48:59   - The point is, this is a lot to choose from already,

01:49:01   and because the dual model versions have only existed

01:49:05   for like a year and a half or two years,

01:49:07   there's probably about to be lots of them coming in

01:49:12   like in inventory over the next year.

01:49:15   It is certainly worth considering heavily.

01:49:19   I'm not gonna necessarily say

01:49:21   that you should definitely do this,

01:49:22   but it solves a lot of problems.

01:49:25   - It solves a lot of problems.

01:49:27   - It is faster than everything else you're looking at,

01:49:29   first of all.

01:49:30   It is way lower maintenance in all likelihood,

01:49:34   especially the newer you go,

01:49:36   once you're into the D generation,

01:49:38   they iron out a lot of the early problems,

01:49:40   and when you're still covered under the warranty,

01:49:42   that solves everything right there.

01:49:43   You pay something like, I think it's like 500 bucks a year

01:49:47   for this giant, big inspection they do every year,

01:49:49   but that's it, that's your entire total maintenance cost.

01:49:52   Until I need to spend $20,000 to replace all the batteries because whatever one I am hypothetically buying has between 15 and 30

01:49:59   Thousand miles on it. I think it's like 10 years. It's it's really far into it

01:50:03   It's basically you don't really keep the car that long. That's the answer to that question

01:50:07   You remember that I'm telling you that Aaron's car is nine and a half years old almost everything you're looking at

01:50:13   You're all these pics. You're not gonna keep those pics for 10 years

01:50:18   Like not none of them you're gonna you're you will you will own none of those when they are 10 years old

01:50:22   Some of the accord obviously you will own none of those when they're 8 years old

01:50:25   How old how old is your car now like six or something? It's not even that old, right? It was

01:50:30   Delivered to the original owner in December of 2010 if I remember right? Yeah, so it's six

01:50:36   Mm-hmm, and it's already so expensive to maintain that you're trying to get rid of it

01:50:39   Yeah, but that's because I didn't buy a boring Japanese car. That's the problem, right?

01:50:43   And so my point is, you're gonna have high maintenance costs

01:50:46   on all of the cars in this list.

01:50:48   Any car that you're gonna be happy driving,

01:50:50   that's not gonna crush your soul and ruin you as a person,

01:50:52   you are going to have high maintenance costs

01:50:54   if you wanna keep it past year like six or seven, basically.

01:50:58   It's probably about as far as you can go

01:51:00   without things getting a little too crazy.

01:51:02   You're gonna have to pay a lot for every car.

01:51:05   None of them are particularly good investments or values.

01:51:09   No matter how you own a car, you're gonna pay a lot.

01:51:12   Because you want a fast car, you're gonna pay more.

01:51:17   Simple as that, no matter how you slice it,

01:51:19   no matter how you arrange it,

01:51:20   no matter whether you buy new or used or lease,

01:51:22   whether you get bitten by bad maintenance luck

01:51:25   like you did with this one or whether you don't,

01:51:27   no matter what, there is no way

01:51:30   to continuously drive fast cars

01:51:34   without spending a ton of money on them.

01:51:37   This is a place you have chosen to spend your money.

01:51:41   You are an adult, you are a good person,

01:51:44   you make a decent living, you can do that.

01:51:46   It's totally fine.

01:51:47   You don't indulge yourself in very many other things.

01:51:50   This is what you do.

01:51:52   It's okay.

01:51:53   - This is the sound of the devil

01:51:54   that's on Marco's shoulder all the time.

01:51:55   - I know, right?

01:51:56   You are the best worst influence.

01:51:58   - It's on both of his shoulders,

01:51:59   he doesn't have an angel in one,

01:52:00   it's just two little devils saying this to Marco constantly.

01:52:02   - Yeah, you are the best worst influence in the world.

01:52:05   - Like, this matters a lot to you.

01:52:08   You get a lot of joy out of this.

01:52:10   You take a lot of your life happiness

01:52:12   from driving a nice fast car.

01:52:15   - Which actually maybe makes me wonder

01:52:17   if my priorities are screwed up,

01:52:19   but I understand what you're saying.

01:52:19   - No, look, everyone has something like this, you know?

01:52:22   Be happy that yours is something

01:52:24   relatively harmless like this and not like drugs.

01:52:26   A lot of people's devices are way worse than this.

01:52:30   - Drugs are Mac Pros.

01:52:31   (laughing)

01:52:34   I mean, on the plus side,

01:52:36   I don't like expensive watches, yet.

01:52:38   - Yeah, exactly.

01:52:39   That's way worse.

01:52:40   - Seriously, it could be so much worse.

01:52:42   Just look at Marco.

01:52:42   - Exactly.

01:52:44   It could be way worse.

01:52:45   So what I'm saying basically is like--

01:52:46   - Or look at Sam Penns for crying out loud.

01:52:48   (laughing)

01:52:49   - So basically what I'm saying is,

01:52:51   don't feel guilty that you like nice fast cars,

01:52:56   and don't try to talk yourself down

01:52:58   from what you really want.

01:53:00   Because a car, it's a long-term choice.

01:53:03   You have to make this decision,

01:53:04   and you have to be driving whatever you pick.

01:53:06   That's gonna be your car for the next at least few years.

01:53:09   And so it matters a lot.

01:53:11   You shouldn't talk yourself down

01:53:13   out of like, you know, Casey's self-doubt.

01:53:17   Like, let your friends encourage you, at least this one,

01:53:21   don't listen to that one talking about something

01:53:23   foreign Japanese, listen to this friend encourage you.

01:53:26   - Tell them to go test drive an A4,

01:53:27   that's what I tell them to do.

01:53:28   - I think that's fair, I think test driving an A4

01:53:30   is reasonable, I think if I were a betting man

01:53:32   I'd probably get the Gullfar,

01:53:34   because it's the least amount of compromise all in all.

01:53:37   Basically the only thing I'm compromising on

01:53:39   is I don't really want a hatchback,

01:53:41   although there is some convenience that comes from it.

01:53:43   - That's a big thing.

01:53:44   - But-- - Interior quality's

01:53:47   gonna be worse than the A4 by a lot.

01:53:49   - I don't think it'll be a lot.

01:53:50   Now, I have not sat in a Golf in a long time,

01:53:54   but people that are friends of mine

01:53:56   that are also car nuts swear by Volkswagen interiors

01:54:01   and by proxy Audi as well.

01:54:03   I happen to like BMW interiors.

01:54:05   I happen to like the way BMWs think

01:54:07   because I think the same way.

01:54:09   And I'm trying to figure out what a specific thing

01:54:14   I can cite, I don't have any off the top of my head.

01:54:16   But iDrive has always made sense to me, stuff like that.

01:54:20   But everything I've understood is that

01:54:23   Volkswagen gets interiors right.

01:54:25   You can debate the exteriors, you can debate a lot of things.

01:54:27   You can debate whether or not they make diesels

01:54:29   that get more than four miles a gallon.

01:54:32   But they do interiors right, from what I'm told.

01:54:36   And I mean, I think the plan is,

01:54:38   if I'm really serious about this, which I think I am,

01:54:40   the plan is first to get Erin a car

01:54:42   because she needs one worse and she's next in line.

01:54:46   But after that, test drive a Golf R, test drive an A4,

01:54:50   and that's probably the entire,

01:54:51   may I probably test drive a Focus ST just to see?

01:54:55   But it's probably one of these.

01:54:57   - So may I suggest an alternative?

01:54:59   So you are prepared to spend probably $50,000

01:55:05   $10,000 on a nice a4

01:55:07   potentially yes potentially okay, the a4 is

01:55:11   Pretty much what you have now

01:55:15   It's moving you to the the newest version of what you're already driving with a different shape logo on the front

01:55:21   It is it is not an upgrade. It is not probably a downgrade in any meaningful way slightly

01:55:27   It's gonna be a little bit slower if that's where I end up. Okay, so we actually getting slower. Okay, right

01:55:31   Okay, you're losing a couple cylinders, etc. Okay

01:55:34   That's about $50,000 to do that

01:55:36   For 55 you could have a brand new fully loaded m2

01:55:42   stop

01:55:44   Stop with that noise the problem is the waiting list for an m2 is the waiting list for an m2 is like two years

01:55:49   My car will be exploded by then think at the m235i close enough

01:55:53   Look the BMWs are really nice cars when you don't have to pay to maintain them. Well, that's true

01:55:58   Like doing is punting my problem down the road. I'm kicking the yeah

01:56:02   - Yeah, so look, I mean, I know you.

01:56:05   As much as I want you to drive a Tesla,

01:56:08   I know that your left foot would fall off

01:56:11   and you'd be upset.

01:56:12   As much as I want you to have something nice and fast

01:56:17   that is a little, nice and fast in other ways,

01:56:19   like your little like, you know,

01:56:21   GTI and R and Focus options, I can't let you do that.

01:56:25   I just can't let you drive a hatchback.

01:56:27   You're too old for that.

01:56:28   That's, you're done with that.

01:56:30   - I realize all of Europe, any age group,

01:56:33   drives a hatchback. - It's different.

01:56:33   Europe is different, California is different.

01:56:36   We live here on the East Coast,

01:56:37   and we are boring geeks in our 30s.

01:56:39   You can't drive a hatchback.

01:56:40   - I can drive a hatchback. - You have a kid,

01:56:41   for Christ's sake, you can't, no.

01:56:43   (laughing)

01:56:43   All right, so that's out.

01:56:45   The A4 is a great car, I'm sure.

01:56:49   It doesn't, does it not have a six cylinder option anymore?

01:56:53   Is that not a thing? - No, it does not.

01:56:55   - Okay, maybe when the S4 comes back, presumably.

01:56:57   - Probably is. - But that would then be

01:56:59   more money than this, I bet.

01:57:00   What you really want, deep down in your heart,

01:57:05   what you really want is a six-speed rear-wheel drive BMW.

01:57:10   And--

01:57:12   - It's, well, I want it until the moment

01:57:14   that the warranty runs out,

01:57:16   and then I need to get something different again.

01:57:18   - If only there is a way to have a car

01:57:21   where you're always under warranty.

01:57:22   - Stop, stop.

01:57:23   (laughing)

01:57:24   God, the white M2 is hideous.

01:57:26   - You get the blue one, right?

01:57:28   I think you'd have to get the blue one.

01:57:29   - Oh, absolutely.

01:57:30   You absolutely get long beach blue.

01:57:30   - When I priced yours out here just now,

01:57:32   I picked the blue one for you.

01:57:34   'Cause I also, surprisingly,

01:57:36   I also think the white is hideous.

01:57:37   And I think black is a little bit boring for that car.

01:57:40   So yeah, I think blue is the only option for that car.

01:57:43   You could also do the M240i,

01:57:45   which is very good in itself.

01:57:47   - I've driven the M235, a friend at work has one,

01:57:50   and it was phenomenal.

01:57:53   - Rear wheel drive M240i is only 46.

01:57:57   It's like 10,000 less.

01:57:59   That is interesting.

01:58:00   - That's actually a pretty good compromise

01:58:02   if I don't mind never being able to put Declan in the car.

01:58:05   - I mean, you could.

01:58:06   It's a two-door. - Yeah, sure.

01:58:07   - It would suck, you could, but you wouldn't want this

01:58:10   if you were gonna do that a lot.

01:58:12   But really, what you would be happiest with

01:58:16   is probably something like this.

01:58:18   It's probably not settling for a Volkswagen group

01:58:21   made hatchback, and the A4 would be fine,

01:58:25   except it's pretty much a sideways step.

01:58:27   It's, you're getting what you already had

01:58:30   and actually slightly slower

01:58:32   'cause you're losing a couple cylinders.

01:58:33   BMW makes good cars that you like a lot.

01:58:36   They just suck to maintain.

01:58:37   - You know, the thing that pisses me off,

01:58:40   so I just priced my M2 and I came up with 55, 202.

01:58:44   But the thing that really pisses me off about it

01:58:45   in the summary page, it says you're M2 coupe

01:58:47   and there's a panoramic view that you can,

01:58:50   well, a quasi-panoramic view of the car

01:58:52   and man, does it look good.

01:58:53   But right under that, estimated lease $829,

01:58:56   MSRP is billed 55,202.

01:58:58   The next item on the list, 060, 4.1 seconds.

01:59:03   Like, you get me, BMW.

01:59:04   You really get me. - Yes.

01:59:06   - Ugh, I can't do another BMW.

01:59:09   I'm so angry about it right now.

01:59:10   I just can't.

01:59:12   I'm over it.

01:59:12   - Wait, cool off, run some numbers,

01:59:15   and consider all your options, really.

01:59:17   Like, don't rule anything out

01:59:19   unless it wouldn't make you happy to drive.

01:59:22   Then rule it out.

01:59:23   So goodbye Accord, goodbye Mazda, sorry.

01:59:26   - Truth.

01:59:27   I'm not sure the A4 would make me terribly happy,

01:59:29   but it's worth a shot.

01:59:30   - Right, exactly!

01:59:31   You're actually getting slower than your current car.

01:59:34   That's what I'm saying.

01:59:35   During the good days,

01:59:39   when you've been owning your wonderful white BMW,

01:59:42   during these good days, were you ever thinking

01:59:44   that your next car would be slower?

01:59:47   - Oh, certainly not.

01:59:48   - Right, exactly!

01:59:49   You were thinking, "Man, this is a great car,

01:59:51   "and my next one's gonna be even faster."

01:59:53   You were thinking about getting an M3 next.

01:59:54   And I totally agree with you

01:59:56   that the current M3 is ridiculously expensive

01:59:59   and is probably not the right move.

02:00:01   But, and also it sounds just disgusting.

02:00:04   (laughs)

02:00:06   There's now finally enough of them in the world

02:00:08   that I'm starting to see and hear more of them in real life.

02:00:11   My goodness, is that a hideous sounding car.

02:00:14   But the M2 isn't.

02:00:15   The M2 sounds nice and is kind of like

02:00:17   what the M3 should be but isn't.

02:00:20   the M2 is a good car.

02:00:22   I really think that you should consider it.

02:00:25   And if not the M2, then the M240,

02:00:27   which is very, it's also very good.

02:00:30   - I'm not gonna do that.

02:00:31   I'm not gonna get a coupe.

02:00:32   It's not gonna happen.

02:00:33   - I mean, it's kind of like a sedan,

02:00:35   just with the doors removed.

02:00:37   But you're riding at sedan height,

02:00:39   you're not on the floor like you are in an S2000.

02:00:42   You're riding at sedan height,

02:00:43   you're roughly sedan shaped,

02:00:46   you have similar sedan weight distributions,

02:00:49   Or say screw it and get an M3 and just be done with it

02:00:51   and just never drive it near my house

02:00:53   so I don't have to hear it.

02:00:54   (laughing)

02:00:55   - Wow, there's no way I'd get an M3.

02:00:57   No frickin' way, not a chance.

02:00:59   I'm pretty much telling myself I will not buy another BMW,

02:01:03   if ever, at least next.

02:01:05   I'm just not gonna do it.

02:01:06   I can't bring myself to it.

02:01:08   - Then you can get a worse car for you, that's fine, but--

02:01:11   - I'm telling, what is worse about a Golf R?

02:01:13   What is worse?

02:01:15   the size, the refinement, the interior.

02:01:19   - The only thing that's worse about the Golf

02:01:22   is for people who hate hatchbacks.

02:01:24   But, Carl and Casey doesn't.

02:01:26   - No, I hate them, but I don't like them, too.

02:01:28   - And so, that eliminates my main objection

02:01:31   to the Golf is that it's a hatchback.

02:01:32   Every other aspect of it,

02:01:34   sounds like Casey would have fun with it.

02:01:36   And he's somehow not bothered by driving around in a rabbit,

02:01:39   so that's fine.

02:01:40   (laughing)

02:01:40   You're such a jerk.

02:01:41   - No, Casey, look, you need to forgive yourself.

02:01:45   Let yourself get something nice.

02:01:47   - We need to forgive him for getting a hatchback.

02:01:48   That's what we need to do.

02:01:49   - He needs to forgive himself for getting a hatchback.

02:01:51   - $40,472 for a brand new Golf R.

02:01:55   - You could also, although if you do get that,

02:01:57   we'll have to have like a seminar

02:01:58   on how to pronounce the name of the car.

02:02:00   - What are you, are you a golf person?

02:02:02   What do you mean? - No, he keeps saying

02:02:03   like the of Mexico, blank of Mexico.

02:02:05   That's what he keeps saying,

02:02:06   but that's not the name of the car.

02:02:07   It's an O.

02:02:08   - Aye.

02:02:09   (door slams)