ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Not only did we just talk last night because we're recording this episode a week ahead of time for the holiday break

00:00:05 ◼   ► It was barely yesterday. Not only that but I've heard you guys in my headphones all day

00:00:09 ◼   ► Since I was editing last night's show fast enough so I can get it published today because I'm leaving town tomorrow, right?

00:00:15 ◼   ► So yeah, that was so I basically it's like I'm just living with you now, which is kind of cool

00:00:20 ◼   ► You're my friend. So it works out. Well, but yeah, I certainly have heard a lot of you in the last 24

00:00:25 ◼   ► I'm so sorry.

00:00:30 ◼   ► John Craig, Syracuse, I have received 158 friggin' emails today thanks to your tweet.

00:00:37 ◼   ► Yeah, thanks a lot, John.

00:00:38 ◼   ► First of all, I told you both I was going to do this.

00:00:40 ◼   ► And second, you both said, "Yeah, that's a good idea."

00:00:42 ◼   ► But you never said that you were going to solicit this feedback via friggin' email.

00:00:45 ◼   ► I was hoping it would be via Twitter.

00:00:47 ◼   ► Well, so here, I told you I was going to solicit the feedback.

00:00:50 ◼   ► Mark, I was like, "Oh, we can do it five minutes before," but I know you couldn't do it five

00:00:53 ◼   ► minutes before.

00:00:54 ◼   ► We've got to collect this stuff.

00:00:55 ◼   ► do was use this piece of software called Backchanel. It's like backchan.nl, which I thought was

00:01:01 ◼   ► like a domain, and I'll just go to backchan.nl and just use it, right? Like, same way you

00:01:05 ◼   ► use like SurveyMonkey or the million other places where you can go to do some, you know,

00:01:10 ◼   ► single purpose thing with a web app, or I would just point people to a weird URL and

00:01:14 ◼   ► say, "Hey, go here and enter your questions," and it lets people vote the questions up,

00:01:17 ◼   ► you know what I mean? Like...

00:01:18 ◼   ► Wait, wait, what is this URL? B-A-C-K-C-H-A-N dot n-l?

00:01:24 ◼   ► Dot n-l, but it's not a URL. Like, I thought it was a URL because I misremembering.

00:01:27 ◼   ► Oh, I was going to say, because this doesn't work.

00:01:29 ◼   ► What it is actually is a software project. It's a PHP thing, I think, and there's

00:01:32 ◼   ► no way I was going to, like, install a PHP thing.

00:01:34 ◼   ► Who would?

00:01:35 ◼   ► Right. But anyway, what I was looking for is a simple way for people to enter questions

00:01:39 ◼   ► and other people to upvote them with some reasonable controls. So a Google Sheet wouldn't

00:01:44 ◼   ► do it because then people would just put whatever number they want in the votes column and then

00:01:47 ◼   ► We have to go back through the history to see who did it and it's all pointless.

00:01:50 ◼   ► Reddit would have worked, but we know how I feel about that.

00:01:54 ◼   ► And so I said, "Well, short notice.

00:01:56 ◼   ► I'm just going to tweet it and we'll just use the feedback form, which will provide

00:02:00 ◼   ► some semblance of uniformity and that we're hoping most of you will come through that

00:02:07 ◼   ► and that people will read all the stuff that says we're going to read your name on the

00:02:10 ◼   ► air and blah, blah, blah, blah."

00:02:11 ◼   ► And I think it worked out pretty well.

00:02:13 ◼   ► We'll find out how well it worked tomorrow if they followed the very important all caps

00:02:17 ◼   ► instruction which was today only tomorrow if we get another hundred

00:02:21 ◼   ► questions then you know well my bad right now go delete that tweet I'm

00:02:25 ◼   ► telling you there's no that's actually a good idea people will find it like in

00:02:29 ◼   ► three weeks and be and still be telling us things because it's a lot just saw

00:02:33 ◼   ► it today yeah all right go delete it that's the only thing you can do that is

00:02:38 ◼   ► the smartest thing Marco I think you've ever said in your entire life after

00:02:42 ◼   ► after I want an m5 or you should go with me to pick up my m5 those are also

00:02:47 ◼   ► - It's all so high on the list.

00:02:49 ◼   ► - Actually, Tiff just got a new car like an hour ago.

00:02:52 ◼   ► - Oh really?

00:02:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause like the lease was up,

00:02:54 ◼   ► and we had, we just got the same thing again, the 340 GT.

00:02:57 ◼   ► - Yeah, I didn't realize you had actually ordered it.

00:02:59 ◼   ► I remember you being in conversation with the dealer,

00:03:01 ◼   ► but I didn't know you had pulled the trigger.

00:03:03 ◼   ► - The best thing about this,

00:03:04 ◼   ► I can finally close like four browser tabs.

00:03:06 ◼   ► - It's the best feeling ever, isn't it?

00:03:08 ◼   ► - Oh yeah.

00:03:09 ◼   ► - Right, John?

00:03:10 ◼   ► Oh boy. - Close that whole window.

00:03:11 ◼   ► Yeah, close the whole window with those tabs in it.

00:03:14 ◼   ► - Hey, in the interest of full disclosure,

00:03:16 ◼   ► I did go on a tacky light tour tonight.

00:03:18 ◼   ► I have had a holiday gathering.

00:03:20 ◼   ► I would not say I've had a holiday party.

00:03:22 ◼   ► So just letting you know.

00:03:23 ◼   ► - Good, I have a small holiday get together

00:03:24 ◼   ► on my desk as well.

00:03:25 ◼   ► We'll see how this goes.

00:03:27 ◼   ► It's from Belgium.

00:03:28 ◼   ► - I had a glass of water in a Dogfish Ale glass today.

00:03:32 ◼   ► - Oh, so you must be hammered.

00:03:34 ◼   ► - So we were out at a restaurant

00:03:35 ◼   ► and I guess all their cups were Dogfish Head Ale

00:03:37 ◼   ► or whatever that company is that Marco likes the beer from.

00:03:40 ◼   ► - Yep, Dogfish Head.

00:03:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I said,

00:03:42 ◼   ► "Oh, I don't know if they sponsor the place or whatever."

00:03:44 ◼   ► But yeah, those were their water glasses.

00:03:46 ◼   ► You couldn't have at least gotten a Sprite, John.

00:03:47 ◼   ► - And I deleted that tweet, so the world is safe.

00:03:50 ◼   ► - Oh, thank you.

00:03:51 ◼   ► I'm looking at my red badge on mail.app, 109, you damn jerk.

00:03:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, I gotta be honest,

00:03:58 ◼   ► I have read almost none of the questions

00:03:59 ◼   ► that came in by email, because I've had such a busy day

00:04:04 ◼   ► that I didn't have time to read 150 new emails

00:04:07 ◼   ► in addition to what I normally get.

00:04:08 ◼   ► - We'll get to that portion of the show eventually,

00:04:10 ◼   ► and I will re-explain it, or explain it, as the case may be,

00:04:14 ◼   ► to both of you in the audience.

00:04:16 ◼   ► - Let's get started.

00:04:17 ◼   ► So let's start with some follow-up.

00:04:18 ◼   ► A friend of the show, Ryan Jones,

00:04:20 ◼   ► has corroborated what we had theorized on the last episode.

00:04:25 ◼   ► He says, and I'm quoting,

00:04:26 ◼   ► "AirPod lightning port is exactly the same

00:04:29 ◼   ► "as the iPhone port.

00:04:30 ◼   ► "Everybody chill."

00:04:31 ◼   ► - Well, you know the iPhone 7 that's shown in this picture

00:04:34 ◼   ► comes with the big fat cable

00:04:35 ◼   ► that covers over the whole thing.

00:04:37 ◼   ► Just like we discussed last show,

00:04:38 ◼   ► like the fat one actually does cover it, you know?

00:04:41 ◼   ► For the headphones anyway,

00:04:42 ◼   ► I guess for the charging thing, it doesn't.

00:04:44 ◼   ► I think it's a little bit more noticeable on the AirPods because everything is all white

00:04:48 ◼   ► shiny plastic and you're plugging a white shiny plastic thing into it and then there's

00:04:51 ◼   ► just a little bit poking out on a regular iPhone.

00:04:53 ◼   ► I imagine people haven't noticed this before.

00:04:55 ◼   ► You know, the little edges poke out past the thing.

00:04:58 ◼   ► But of course, internet being what it is, this picture, which many people have posted

00:05:03 ◼   ► similar things, didn't stop people.

00:05:05 ◼   ► They said, "Well, you know what that means?

00:05:07 ◼   ► That means the iPhone 7 was supposed to be USB-C too," and they changed their mind.

00:05:10 ◼   ► So you can't stop the conspiracy theorists.

00:05:13 ◼   ► Anyway, it just looks like this is what lighting ports look like, people.

00:05:17 ◼   ► And sometimes the plastic part doesn't extend all the way to the end of the little opening.

00:05:21 ◼   ► Also, I'd like to acknowledge that we finished recording the last episode 26 hours ago, 25

00:05:28 ◼   ► hours ago, something like that.

00:05:30 ◼   ► And we did indeed have one piece of follow-up.

00:05:32 ◼   ► Amazing.

00:05:33 ◼   ► Well, they're fast.

00:05:34 ◼   ► I mean, it could have been real-time follow-up if we were a little bit, you know, this was

00:05:37 ◼   ► 11, I guess it was 11.44 a.m. today.

00:05:40 ◼   ► But I'm sure somebody in the chat room said this during the thing and we missed it.

00:05:45 ◼   ► Indeed.

00:05:46 ◼   ► All right, moving on.

00:05:48 ◼   ► Are we going to talk?

00:05:49 ◼   ► I guess, Jon and Marco, you really want to talk about the Mark Gurman article, don't

00:05:53 ◼   ► you?

00:05:54 ◼   ► So do you.

00:05:55 ◼   ► Everybody does.

00:05:56 ◼   ► Who doesn't?

00:05:57 ◼   ► I slightly do.

00:05:58 ◼   ► All right, let me sit back, get comfortable.

00:05:59 ◼   ► Maybe invite over another party.

00:06:01 ◼   ► Yeah, right.

00:06:02 ◼   ► All right, let's get started.

00:06:05 ◼   ► So Mark Gurman wrote a post on Bloomberg, which is obviously where he works now.

00:06:10 ◼   ► It's entitled "How Apple Alienated Mac Loyalists."

00:06:13 ◼   ► And whether or not you agree with the premise of the article, whether or not you like the

00:06:20 ◼   ► article, the premise of the article is, you know, if you look at the situation here, the

00:06:25 ◼   ► Mac is kind of an also-ran, it's kind of a—it's the tag-along in Apple's portfolio, and it's

00:06:34 ◼   ► becoming more and more clear that it's of less importance to Apple than it ever has

00:06:40 ◼   ► been in the past.

00:06:41 ◼   ► And there's some interesting factoids, which I'm sure we'll get into, about why the Mac

00:06:48 ◼   ► does or does not matter.

00:06:50 ◼   ► There's some interesting facts that actually may not be accurate, as told to us by some

00:06:56 ◼   ► little birdies about whether or not the software teams were realigned or misaligned or just

00:07:04 ◼   ► generally differently aligned in the effort to make the things for the Mac better or worse.

00:07:10 ◼   ► It's an interesting article and it is worth reading. I'm not sure what to make of it,

00:07:16 ◼   ► but I'm curious to hear what the two of you have to say. So, since I've learned from the last

00:07:23 ◼   ► episode, let's start with Jon. Jon, what did you think about this?

00:07:27 ◼   ► >>

00:07:41 ◼   ► you can recall having read this thing a couple days ago now that was in here and that was the

00:07:45 ◼   ► story about how the new MacBook Pros, one of the things that Apple looked into was having

00:07:51 ◼   ► differently shaped batteries to basically find more places to shove battery in the thing. And

00:07:56 ◼   ► it doesn't mean the same as the scalped batteries because that wouldn't make sense because it's not

00:08:00 ◼   ► tapered, but instead of just having a couple rectangles that fit into the nice rectangle parts,

00:08:05 ◼   ► having more oddly shaped batteries that can fill more nooks and crannies with battery,

00:08:09 ◼   ► and that didn't work out for whatever reason according to this article and so they went with

00:08:14 ◼   ► the more boring shape battery which meant less battery which meant less battery life

00:08:18 ◼   ► and that's a new presentation of some new information literally everything else in this

00:08:23 ◼   ► article i think is just a summary and a reiteration of all of the cranky mac user stuff that has been

00:08:34 ◼   ► been going on on the internet and on this podcast for a long period of time, including

00:08:39 ◼   ► the bit that a lot of people—I think that was in this article—that a lot of people

00:08:42 ◼   ► are going on, like that Apple—was this this article?—that Apple doesn't have a dedicated

00:08:46 ◼   ► Mac OS group anymore?

00:08:47 ◼   ► Yeah, it says that about software at least, not about hardware.

00:08:51 ◼   ► Right.

00:08:52 ◼   ► And that's—unless I'm missing some detail that is not in this article, and again, it

00:08:56 ◼   ► would help if this article acknowledged the thing I'm about to say and clarified it for

00:09:00 ◼   ► me, but Apple Unified Software under Craig a long time ago, like there used to be someone

00:09:07 ◼   ► who ran iOS and someone who ran Mac, what was then called Mac OS 10, and then eventually

00:09:11 ◼   ► OS 10 and now Mac OS, those were separate, and then they were combined, right? And so

00:09:16 ◼   ► it's not, that's not news. Now, if they mean, okay, so that happened, but now actually,

00:09:20 ◼   ► really, even within the organization, there's not a bifurcation. I think the article should

00:09:24 ◼   ► have acknowledged the past thing and said, "Now I know what you're thinking. Didn't

00:09:27 ◼   ► already do that when they put Craig Federighi and tried to do everything? No, even then

00:09:30 ◼   ► they were still too separate. The Garda doesn't say that. So I don't know quite what to think

00:09:34 ◼   ► there. But either way, I don't see that as a big deal because unifying all software and

00:09:38 ◼   ► all OS efforts under a single group makes sense to me more than having them be walled

00:09:44 ◼   ► off from each other. Because the core OS is essentially the same plus or minus differences

00:09:49 ◼   ► needed for each individual platform. And there's so much shared between them and so many APIs

00:09:53 ◼   ► and things that go between them like the extension mechanism, XPC, and just it makes perfect

00:09:58 ◼   ► sense to not have them walled off into like this is the iOS group and this is the MacOS

00:10:02 ◼   ► 10 group and occasionally they cooperate.

00:10:03 ◼   ► So I don't see that as particularly newsworthy either.

00:10:08 ◼   ► And I also don't understand what it means that most of the team is iOS first.

00:10:11 ◼   ► I mean they're working on iOS.

00:10:12 ◼   ► I can imagine there are more people working on it because it is the more important operating

00:10:15 ◼   ► system.

00:10:16 ◼   ► It's also the younger one and it has the hardware that changes that is changing the most.

00:10:22 ◼   ► But what does it mean to be iOS first, as if the entire – most of them are iOS first?

00:10:27 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:10:29 ◼   ► Not enough information to get worked up about.

00:10:31 ◼   ► And so unless there's some other nuance that we're missing here that wasn't included

00:10:35 ◼   ► in the article, I'm going to say, yeah, so the groups are combined, that's fine,

00:10:38 ◼   ► and that's not a big deal.

00:10:40 ◼   ► I'll let Marco say what he thinks about this first, but there is one reason I wanted

00:10:44 ◼   ► to talk about this that is – doesn't have to do with the specifics of the article except

00:10:49 ◼   ► to say that this is a thing now, that every publication feels like they need to have a

00:10:54 ◼   ► Mac Malaise article where they talk about either cranky Mac users or Apple failing those

00:10:58 ◼   ► Mac users or both, and then some story about how the Mac is fading and stuff like that.

00:11:02 ◼   ► So that is the season for that kind of article, and this was sure one of them.

00:11:06 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I honestly don't have a lot to say about this specific article. I do obviously,

00:11:12 ◼   ► as we all know, have a lot to say about the topic of the state of the Mac and Apple seemingly

00:11:20 ◼   ► neglecting things that I care about. But this particular article, as is typical with Mark

00:11:26 ◼   ► Germin articles, contains a few solid new, you know, stated facts, whether they're

00:11:31 ◼   ► true or not, we don't know, but stated as fact, you know, a few new information bits,

00:11:36 ◼   ► but then this whole narrative around it that is questionable and of a lot less credibility,

00:11:42 ◼   ► know, Germin has very good sources for facts, but he often gets the story and the narrative

00:11:50 ◼   ► wrong or the reasons wrong. So we have to take everything in this that's about reasons

00:11:58 ◼   ► or people's feelings or what they, you know, what they think or why they do things, take

00:12:04 ◼   ► all that with a grain of salt because that, you know, that could all be completely bogus

00:12:08 ◼   ► or at least misleading or missing some kind of subtle

00:12:13 ◼   ► distinction or detail.

00:12:14 ◼   ► So, what we have to work with here,

00:12:17 ◼   ► you know, John nailed it, like,

00:12:19 ◼   ► there's not a lot of new stuff here,

00:12:20 ◼   ► and the stuff that is new, like that they tried

00:12:24 ◼   ► potentially terraced batteries in the 2016 MacBook Pro,

00:12:28 ◼   ► yeah, that's not that interesting.

00:12:30 ◼   ► If they would have crammed more battery into it,

00:12:32 ◼   ► it would have been heavier.

00:12:34 ◼   ► Batteries are heavy.

00:12:36 ◼   ► Empty gaps around the square batteries

00:12:38 ◼   ► are very lightweight.

00:12:39 ◼   ► So if they would have, like,

00:12:42 ◼   ► one of the reasons this laptop is so pleasant to use

00:12:46 ◼   ► is that it is noticeably lighter than the previous one.

00:12:49 ◼   ► If it was less lighter than the previous one,

00:12:53 ◼   ► then it wouldn't be as good of an update.

00:12:56 ◼   ► So that's kind of a non-story,

00:12:58 ◼   ► that they tried these different kind of battery in it.

00:13:02 ◼   ► And, you know, they try lots of things,

00:13:03 ◼   ► and there's a reason why not everything ships.

00:13:06 ◼   ► That isn't that important.

00:13:07 ◼   ► - There was another one of the stories they had

00:13:09 ◼   ► was about the MacBook, that they had a bigger one

00:13:10 ◼   ► and a heavier one and they went with the skinnier one.

00:13:12 ◼   ► But again, the conclusion, they picked the lighter one

00:13:17 ◼   ► and then the engineers had less time to figure out

00:13:20 ◼   ► how to cram all the electronics into the thin one.

00:13:22 ◼   ► The idea that the way the company is working

00:13:25 ◼   ► is try a bunch of different approaches,

00:13:26 ◼   ► then eventually pick one, and then the narrative

00:13:29 ◼   ► that this leaves the engineer scrambling

00:13:31 ◼   ► to get the final one done.

00:13:33 ◼   ► - Well, welcome to Apple.

00:13:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, that approach of trying multiple ideas,

00:13:37 ◼   ► First of all, I don't think that's new.

00:13:38 ◼   ► Like look underneath all Johnny Ives black cloths and his things.

00:13:41 ◼   ► He's got tons of, you know, they try tons of stuff.

00:13:43 ◼   ► And then eventually you pick one and there's lots of time pressure to do it and so on and

00:13:47 ◼   ► so forth.

00:13:48 ◼   ► But again, if they're going to make this argument, you have to add more.

00:13:52 ◼   ► It has to be like, this is a thing, you know, in the past they did X and the results were

00:13:58 ◼   ► Y.

00:13:59 ◼   ► And now they're doing Z and the results are Q.

00:14:00 ◼   ► Like you need something to tie it together instead of just saying they did this thing

00:14:04 ◼   ► and this is what happened.

00:14:06 ◼   ► Is that any different than literally every other piece of hardware they've made in the

00:14:10 ◼   ► past 10 years?

00:14:11 ◼   ► Or is it the same?

00:14:13 ◼   ► The article isn't saying one way or the other.

00:14:14 ◼   ► We're led to believe that this is a nefarious, terrible thing, that two possible approaches

00:14:17 ◼   ► to a product were done and one of them didn't work out and they picked one, and then it

00:14:21 ◼   ► was a difficult task to get that one done in time.

00:14:23 ◼   ► We're led to believe that that is a sign that, I don't know, that they don't care about the

00:14:27 ◼   ► Mac.

00:14:28 ◼   ► I mean, if anything, they care about it more because they're doing twice the work and throwing

00:14:30 ◼   ► half of it away.

00:14:31 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:14:32 ◼   ► This article is so confused.

00:14:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, I feel like Germin really,

00:14:37 ◼   ► he got a few good facts,

00:14:39 ◼   ► and he really wanted to tell this story,

00:14:41 ◼   ► and so he kind of shoved the facts

00:14:45 ◼   ► into the story he wanted to tell,

00:14:46 ◼   ► but it doesn't all make good sense.

00:14:48 ◼   ► It is not, you know, it isn't a great fit in some cases,

00:14:52 ◼   ► and this, honestly, you know,

00:14:54 ◼   ► not to pick on Germin too much,

00:14:55 ◼   ► because pretty much every journalist

00:14:58 ◼   ► I've ever had any dealings with

00:15:00 ◼   ► has done exactly the same kind of thing, you know?

00:15:02 ◼   ► the story is usually decided up front and the facts are found to support it. And I have

00:15:08 ◼   ► my own theory about what the narrative is for the problems that the Mac is having inside

00:15:12 ◼   ► of Apple, and a lot of it lines up with this. So I want to agree with this, I want to believe

00:15:18 ◼   ► it, but the fact is there's very few facts here to support the story, and especially

00:15:22 ◼   ► very few new facts.

00:15:24 ◼   ► Yeah, so the larger point I wanted to make about this whole topic is something I keep

00:15:29 ◼   ► in mind every time we discuss it, and in general, is—and I think I brought it up before—imagine

00:15:36 ◼   ► for a second that we fast-forward 20 years and look back and realize that what's actually

00:15:44 ◼   ► happening during this period is that PC and desktop computing is slowly fading away as

00:15:51 ◼   ► a thing.

00:15:53 ◼   ► If you are a fan of that type of thing, as we are, during the time when it was fading

00:16:00 ◼   ► away, I'm not sure it would feel any differently than we feel about Apple doing this stuff

00:16:07 ◼   ► now.

00:16:08 ◼   ► Can we tell the difference between Apple not prioritizing the Mac and that being the wrong

00:16:15 ◼   ► thing to do, and us being indignant and angry and telling Apple, "You should be doing this,

00:16:22 ◼   ► you're doing that instead and you're making a mistake and it's really important for you

00:16:26 ◼   ► to do this for all these reasons, you know, so on and so forth.

00:16:28 ◼   ► Kind of like why Apple should have a Mac Pro, which I wrote a thing about and so did Marco

00:16:32 ◼   ► more recently and, you know, what the needs of pro users are, whatever.

00:16:38 ◼   ► I don't think it would feel any different from our perspective if we're right or if

00:16:42 ◼   ► we're wrong.

00:16:43 ◼   ► Like, it feels the same either way.

00:16:46 ◼   ► And I keep that in mind because it's like, I mean, it doesn't really change how I feel.

00:16:49 ◼   ► I still wish they would pay more attention to the Mac.

00:16:51 ◼   ► But every once in a while I have a moment of clarity and say, "Well, say Apple is

00:16:55 ◼   ► doing exactly the right thing, and we are yelling and screaming and trying to tell them

00:17:00 ◼   ► to do the wrong thing."

00:17:04 ◼   ► It's difficult for me to distinguish those two scenarios.

00:17:07 ◼   ► Now, I mostly disagree that they are doing the right thing.

00:17:10 ◼   ► I think they're doing the wrong thing.

00:17:11 ◼   ► But setting that aside for a second, the other part I take, that thought experiment, leave

00:17:17 ◼   ► it over there and then say, "Okay, let's say Apple is right."

00:17:21 ◼   ► And this is a technology that—a product and a style of working and everything that

00:17:25 ◼   ► is fading from view.

00:17:26 ◼   ► It will die with us because we are the last group of people who are ever going to care

00:17:28 ◼   ► about this crap.

00:17:29 ◼   ► And actually, the right thing for Apple to do is to get rid of it.

00:17:33 ◼   ► In that case, I still have one more thing left to complain about Apple—complain to

00:17:37 ◼   ► Apple about.

00:17:38 ◼   ► And that's that if they really believe that, they should be honest about it.

00:17:44 ◼   ► They should hasten the transition.

00:17:46 ◼   ► They shouldn't string us along with a series of platitudes like we talked about last time,

00:17:50 ◼   ► Like we've got great desktops and the iMac is the best desktop and we're really dedicated

00:17:53 ◼   ► to the Mac and we love the Mac.

00:17:55 ◼   ► And I think it's complicated by the fact that Apple doesn't speak with one voice.

00:17:58 ◼   ► It is, you know, especially after Jobs is gone.

00:18:01 ◼   ► It's a company made up of a bunch of people.

00:18:03 ◼   ► And I think there are people inside Apple, probably Phil Schiller, probably even Craig

00:18:07 ◼   ► Federighi, who feel the same way about the Mac as we do.

00:18:10 ◼   ► Only they're inside the company, right?

00:18:11 ◼   ► So when they make statements like, "Oh, we think the Mac is really important and we're

00:18:14 ◼   ► really dedicated to the Mac," and blah, blah, blah, I think that's the truth.

00:18:18 ◼   ► Then they believe it, right?

00:18:19 ◼   ► And to the extent that their power exists inside Apple, they're trying to make that

00:18:23 ◼   ► happen.

00:18:25 ◼   ► But it could be that that opinion is not universal throughout the company and may not be the

00:18:30 ◼   ► position that eventually wins.

00:18:32 ◼   ► So what we end up with is a company that perhaps has rightly, like in the worst case scenario

00:18:37 ◼   ► for us, the company has rightly seen that this product and this way of computing is

00:18:44 ◼   ► a relic and it needs to go away.

00:18:46 ◼   ► But instead of saying that, instead of saying, like I said last time, instead of saying,

00:18:50 ◼   ► "Oh, laptops are the future, there's no more desktops and the Mac is going to be no more

00:18:53 ◼   ► pretty soon.

00:18:54 ◼   ► It's a legacy platform," as many of the scary articles have said.

00:18:58 ◼   ► The future is iOS.

00:18:59 ◼   ► We know this is painful, but it's going to happen.

00:19:01 ◼   ► Sorry.

00:19:02 ◼   ► Instead of saying that, every time there's any crankiness about it from their customers,

00:19:08 ◼   ► they say reassuring things.

00:19:10 ◼   ► They say, "Oh, don't worry.

00:19:12 ◼   ► Like I know it seems like we don't care about the Mac, but we totally do.

00:19:14 ◼   ► It's super important.

00:19:15 ◼   ► the Mac, blah blah blah blah blah. And then they proceed to, you know, their actions don't

00:19:19 ◼   ► back that up. Time and again their actions, you know, give us something, throw a little

00:19:24 ◼   ► crumb our way, and then leave us hanging. Or, you know, the Mac Pro, the trash can. Like,

00:19:30 ◼   ► they did this amazing thing and then left us hanging for three years. And now we're

00:19:35 ◼   ► not getting much of anything from the Mac these days. Very, far less frequent updates,

00:19:41 ◼   ► that aren't as satisfying to traditional Mac users, and we just get some, you know,

00:19:47 ◼   ► random platitudes. So I think that even if we are dinosaurs, and we are the last generation of people

00:19:54 ◼   ► that's ever going to care about this type of computing, and it will fade away with us,

00:19:58 ◼   ► Apple is not handling it the right way. And if it turns out that actually this way of computing is

00:20:03 ◼   ► not going away, then Apple is definitely not handling it the right way, as discussed many

00:20:08 ◼   ► many times in the past.

00:20:09 ◼   ► But anyway, that's the point I wanted to make

00:20:11 ◼   ► about these type of articles is that if like us,

00:20:13 ◼   ► you are upset about the Mac,

00:20:16 ◼   ► you always have to think that it could be

00:20:18 ◼   ► that you are a relic, that you are the Apple II user saying,

00:20:21 ◼   ► the Mac is never gonna be the future.

00:20:23 ◼   ► You can't get real work done on the Mac,

00:20:24 ◼   ► Apple II forever, right?

00:20:26 ◼   ► Or any other thing you can think of

00:20:27 ◼   ► or any other analogy, the buggy whip salesman,

00:20:30 ◼   ► horse versus automobile, whatever you wanna,

00:20:34 ◼   ► even in radio versus television,

00:20:36 ◼   ► movies, the internet versus everything that came before it basically. Sometimes you're

00:20:42 ◼   ► in that group that is being left behind. And if you are, it looks and feels exactly the

00:20:49 ◼   ► same as if the whole rest of the world is doing something terribly wrong and you're

00:20:53 ◼   ► the only one who knows about it. And unfortunately, it's difficult to say which way things are

00:20:58 ◼   ► going to go until later. So five years from now, ten years from now, I think we'll have

00:21:02 ◼   ► much more clarity about whether we ended up being right or wrong.

00:21:09 ◼   ► But either way, right now, I think Apple is mishandling things in one direction or another.

00:21:15 ◼   ► So Jon, as somebody who was at one point a iPod Touch devotee, when did you know that

00:21:26 ◼   ► that was not the right way forward?

00:21:28 ◼   ► When did you know that the iPod Touch was not the right device for you anymore?

00:21:32 ◼   ► I think it was more than just you not wanting to pay for a more expensive cell phone plan,

00:21:38 ◼   ► right?

00:21:39 ◼   ► So at what point did you say, "You know what?

00:21:40 ◼   ► The iPod Touch is not long for this world," or alternatively, "It's not satisfying my

00:21:45 ◼   ► needs and it's time to get an iPhone."

00:21:48 ◼   ► Because I feel like that's a similar situation, right?

00:21:51 ◼   ► You seem to have been on the wrong side of that, and it seems like the writer answer

00:21:56 ◼   ► is to be an iPhone person rather than an iPod Touch person.

00:22:00 ◼   ► >> Now, Apple was on the wrong side of that one.

00:22:04 ◼   ► That situation, it's not like I wasn't changing from the Apple II to the Mac or from the Mac

00:22:11 ◼   ► to an iOS device.

00:22:13 ◼   ► iPod Touch is an iPhone minus the phone part.

00:22:16 ◼   ► Like it's the same OS.

00:22:17 ◼   ► It's the same experience.

00:22:18 ◼   ► It's not a different platform.

00:22:20 ◼   ► It's not a different paradigm.

00:22:21 ◼   ► It's not even a different form factor.

00:22:23 ◼   ► It's basically the same exact thing.

00:22:25 ◼   ► Now Apple did stop updating it to keep pace with the phone stuff.

00:22:29 ◼   ► But that was so easy to make that switch,

00:22:31 ◼   ► 'cause like, I'm not even changing anything.

00:22:32 ◼   ► Like it's literally the same thing,

00:22:34 ◼   ► only now there's a phone in it, right?

00:22:36 ◼   ► And it's just faster and it's nicer.

00:22:37 ◼   ► And so that was an easy thing to make.

00:22:40 ◼   ► And the reason I think Apple was wrong

00:22:42 ◼   ► is because that's not a transition.

00:22:43 ◼   ► There's no transition from iPod touch to iPhone

00:22:46 ◼   ► that Apple needed to make.

00:22:47 ◼   ► They didn't need to get like the dinosaurs

00:22:49 ◼   ► off of the old platform.

00:22:51 ◼   ► It's the same freaking thing.

00:22:52 ◼   ► They just decided that it wasn't as important.

00:22:54 ◼   ► And well, I don't know if I'm gonna say they're wrong,

00:22:56 ◼   ► 'cause they were probably right in terms of volume,

00:22:57 ◼   ► because they probably sell way more phones

00:22:59 ◼   ► those things, so who cares, whatever. But what I want to say about them being wrong

00:23:02 ◼   ► is there was no, strictly speaking, there was no strategic reason to migrate people

00:23:09 ◼   ► off the iPod touch, because it's not like a legacy platform. It is the current platform.

00:23:14 ◼   ► It runs the current version of the iOS. It is getting people into the iOS ecosystem.

00:23:20 ◼   ► There's nothing about it that is counter to their broad strategy. It just doesn't sell

00:23:24 ◼   ► as much and they can justify the investment of keeping updated or whatever. So in that

00:23:28 ◼   ► respect they're probably right but in terms of like have they done the opposite

00:23:31 ◼   ► they would not have been making a strategic mistake they just update that

00:23:35 ◼   ► and lockstep with the rest of the iPhones like they had done before

00:23:37 ◼   ► everything would be fine they wouldn't be selling any more iPod touches their

00:23:41 ◼   ► iPod touch customers might be a little bit happier you know but but you're

00:23:46 ◼   ► right that the one similarity that has is when they stopped updating it

00:23:52 ◼   ► frequently enough and when I saw that if I really want the fastest iOS device

00:23:56 ◼   ► available or anything that's even in the ballpark, the only choice I have is an iPhone, that's

00:24:00 ◼   ► when I had to switch. And like I said, it was easy because it's the same thing, it's

00:24:04 ◼   ► the same platform, it's the same software, everything.

00:24:06 ◼   ► - Fair enough. So Marco, what do you think about all this? I mean, you've been stunningly

00:24:11 ◼   ► quiet. I know you have some thoughts here, so lay it on me.

00:24:14 ◼   ► - I mean, I almost don't know where to begin. It's like, I honestly don't care too crafty

00:24:19 ◼   ► about the iPod Touch, but the whole story about what's going on with the Mac, I care

00:24:25 ◼   ► very, very much about. It's hard to know where to start, so forgive me if this is disorganized,

00:24:32 ◼   ► like most of what I say. What bothers me about the discussion around this and about seemingly

00:24:39 ◼   ► Apple's position on this by their mostly inaction around a lot of the Mac product line, and

00:24:44 ◼   ► the Mac OS honestly, is that, you know, to pull up the old Steve Jobs truck analogy,

00:24:51 ◼   ► which it's not an amazingly fitting analogy

00:24:54 ◼   ► because cars and trucks are not computers and phones.

00:24:58 ◼   ► That's not, it doesn't fit incredibly well.

00:25:01 ◼   ► But there's enough parallels with what he was saying

00:25:04 ◼   ► that I think it's worth revisiting that for a second

00:25:09 ◼   ► and kind of trying to explain how I feel.

00:25:11 ◼   ► The way I feel as a, not only as a Mac user,

00:25:14 ◼   ► but as a Mac Pro user, really.

00:25:18 ◼   ► Apple is like the only manufacturer in the world

00:25:22 ◼   ► of decent trucks.

00:25:24 ◼   ► And they discovered a few years ago

00:25:27 ◼   ► that cars are more profitable.

00:25:29 ◼   ► And so they've decided, you know what,

00:25:32 ◼   ► we're just hardly gonna update trucks anymore

00:25:34 ◼   ► and we're just gonna not make the biggest ones anymore.

00:25:38 ◼   ► And most people don't need the biggest ones.

00:25:41 ◼   ► But some people do.

00:25:43 ◼   ► And what if it takes 20 years

00:25:44 ◼   ► to develop a good truck making company?

00:25:48 ◼   ► So I know this analogy is being stretched to hell

00:25:51 ◼   ► and it is like long gone

00:25:53 ◼   ► and I'm abusing the crap out of it.

00:25:55 ◼   ► However, Apple is abandoning parts of the market

00:26:00 ◼   ► for which there is no substitute

00:26:03 ◼   ► for what Apple has been making.

00:26:05 ◼   ► And if they're not abandoning it, they're neglecting it.

00:26:07 ◼   ► And they might be abandoning it soon.

00:26:10 ◼   ► And everyone says, the Apple excusers

00:26:15 ◼   ► who hear discussion about this

00:26:17 ◼   ► often respond with, well, they're just not making

00:26:20 ◼   ► computers for you, or this product just isn't for you

00:26:23 ◼   ► anymore, or they don't care to satisfy your needs anymore.

00:26:26 ◼   ► But to some degree, it isn't that simple,

00:26:30 ◼   ► because these needs will continue to exist.

00:26:33 ◼   ► People who need Macs, period, to do their work,

00:26:38 ◼   ► and people who need high-end Macs also,

00:26:41 ◼   ► or certain high-end software and hardware needs,

00:26:45 ◼   ► those needs continue, whether Apple feels like addressing

00:26:48 ◼   ► them or not, but if Apple has been addressing them

00:26:52 ◼   ► all these years and then stops, that leaves those people

00:26:55 ◼   ► really screwed, like with nothing,

00:26:58 ◼   ► because it isn't usually as simple as jumping to Windows.

00:27:02 ◼   ► Unless what you do is, as I described about the server

00:27:06 ◼   ► studio two episodes ago, if what you do is primarily

00:27:10 ◼   ► in one Adobe Creative Suite app or something like that,

00:27:13 ◼   ► where it's an app that's available on both platforms,

00:27:16 ◼   ► and that's most of what you do for your computer needs

00:27:19 ◼   ► for that computer or whatever,

00:27:20 ◼   ► like if it's a workstation

00:27:21 ◼   ► or if it's a studio computer or whatever.

00:27:24 ◼   ► That's a different story.

00:27:25 ◼   ► But for people who use the whole OS in integrated ways,

00:27:29 ◼   ► multiple software packages,

00:27:30 ◼   ► maybe software that's only available on that OS,

00:27:32 ◼   ► you can't just like, oh, just start using Windows.

00:27:34 ◼   ► No, it isn't that simple.

00:27:36 ◼   ► And there's a lot of investment

00:27:38 ◼   ► both in not only software that you buy,

00:27:40 ◼   ► but also there might be custom software

00:27:42 ◼   ► that is developed for this OS that doesn't exist

00:27:45 ◼   ► on the other OS.

00:27:47 ◼   ► Or if you're a developer, like you've built

00:27:49 ◼   ► your software library, your code base,

00:27:52 ◼   ► your customer base, all on this OS.

00:27:55 ◼   ► So just telling people like, oh, just go use Windows,

00:27:58 ◼   ► like that's not a great answer.

00:28:00 ◼   ► If Apple stops addressing a market,

00:28:03 ◼   ► in many cases, those people are just completely out of luck.

00:28:08 ◼   ► And there seems to be this like,

00:28:10 ◼   ► this like design virus.

00:28:13 ◼   ► Like it's this kind of like cult of saying no as a feature.

00:28:18 ◼   ► And it's almost as though like when people back,

00:28:22 ◼   ► you know, back when like Samsung first like started

00:28:25 ◼   ► really ripping off Apple heavily,

00:28:27 ◼   ► Steve was still alive for that part.

00:28:29 ◼   ► The way people would rip off Apple would basically be like

00:28:31 ◼   ► to look at some kind of superficial quality

00:28:34 ◼   ► that Apple products have, like oh,

00:28:36 ◼   ► everything is like rounded and has blue,

00:28:39 ◼   ► you know, bulbous colors on it or whatever.

00:28:41 ◼   ► And it has no, you know, it removes ports or whatever.

00:28:45 ◼   ► Like, they would take some kind of superficial quality

00:28:47 ◼   ► and just apply that as gospel

00:28:50 ◼   ► without really understanding why that was done that way.

00:28:54 ◼   ► And without understanding that there were trade-offs

00:28:56 ◼   ► involved and that sometimes you shouldn't do things that way.

00:28:59 ◼   ► And like, you know, basically copying like

00:29:02 ◼   ► a superficial attribute and just replicating it

00:29:05 ◼   ► without understanding why and without ever questioning it.

00:29:08 ◼   ► I almost feel like that's how Apple's designing

00:29:11 ◼   ► their own product line now, as like kind of repeating the,

00:29:16 ◼   ► oh, just I guess we can make it thinner,

00:29:18 ◼   ► because what else are we gonna do?

00:29:20 ◼   ► I guess we can remove some ports,

00:29:21 ◼   ► because that's the future, in quotes.

00:29:23 ◼   ► But it's almost like they've lost track of why it's so,

00:29:27 ◼   ► why it's sometimes worth removing things,

00:29:30 ◼   ► why it sometimes isn't, and it's like they're saying no

00:29:34 ◼   ► or removing things for the sake of saying no or removing them. And this is kind of permeating

00:29:40 ◼   ► now the Apple commentary culture right now of kind of assuming that everything that Apple

00:29:45 ◼   ► takes away or makes worse is for the future and inevitable and it's universally a good

00:29:52 ◼   ► thing. Of course this was progress. And they apply that same thinking to when Apple basically

00:29:59 ◼   ► cuts off somebody's needs and say, "Oh well, I guess they just don't feel like serving

00:30:04 ◼   ► you anymore or you're not worth serving.

00:30:06 ◼   ► And by the way, for a company where like,

00:30:11 ◼   ► you have quarterly results that keep going down,

00:30:14 ◼   ► and product lines that seems like the growth

00:30:18 ◼   ► is being problematic for you,

00:30:20 ◼   ► I'm not sure it's the wisest move in the world

00:30:23 ◼   ► to throw away market share that you've earned hard

00:30:26 ◼   ► over the last decade or two.

00:30:27 ◼   ► Like, to tell somebody your needs

00:30:32 ◼   ► are not worth serving is a big slap in the face to them.

00:30:37 ◼   ► And that doesn't leave people happy with Apple

00:30:40 ◼   ► or likely to buy a lot of other Apple stuff.

00:30:43 ◼   ► And so they're literally throwing away market share

00:30:46 ◼   ► with everything they cut, neglect, or change for the worse,

00:30:51 ◼   ► or choose not to address.

00:30:53 ◼   ► They're literally throwing away market share.

00:30:55 ◼   ► And in a market like the PC market,

00:30:59 ◼   ► where market share is hard to come by

00:31:01 ◼   ► and there's not a ton of growth happening of the market as a whole, that's kind of the

00:31:06 ◼   ► opposite of what you should be doing, really. Apple should be trying to address more needs

00:31:09 ◼   ► with the Mac, not fewer. But anyway, going back to the more general stuff, I worry now

00:31:15 ◼   ► that Apple does think, Apple and also comment, the Apple commenters all seem to support this

00:31:21 ◼   ► notion unquestioningly, that removing things and making things "simpler" which often involves

00:31:29 ◼   ► cutting off people's needs and what they were doing,

00:31:32 ◼   ► that that's universally a good thing.

00:31:33 ◼   ► And I think that deserves more critical thinking at Apple.

00:31:38 ◼   ► I think that deserves more pushback.

00:31:40 ◼   ► And because sometimes that is the right answer,

00:31:43 ◼   ► but not every time.

00:31:44 ◼   ► And it really does seem like Apple has lost the ability

00:31:48 ◼   ► to tell the difference.

00:31:49 ◼   ► - So what did you think about what I said before

00:31:52 ◼   ► about how from the inside it's difficult to distinguish

00:31:55 ◼   ► between the situation that you described

00:31:57 ◼   ► and the situation where Apple's actually right

00:31:59 ◼   ► and they're just not being honest maybe with themselves even,

00:32:04 ◼   ► but certainly not with us,

00:32:05 ◼   ► about the fact that we're moving away from it.

00:32:08 ◼   ► You think you could tell the difference

00:32:10 ◼   ► from our perspective,

00:32:11 ◼   ► whether we're just being left behind and it's painful,

00:32:15 ◼   ► or whether we're actually right

00:32:17 ◼   ► and Apple's doing something stupid?

00:32:18 ◼   ► - Honestly, I don't know.

00:32:21 ◼   ► I don't have any way to know that.

00:32:23 ◼   ► You can look at the market.

00:32:25 ◼   ► There is a clear trend that mobile is up and PC style OS's including Mac OS are down,

00:32:33 ◼   ► and that things like web browsing share, you can see that going way towards mobile now,

00:32:40 ◼   ► it's obvious that's where usage percentages are going.

00:32:44 ◼   ► I'm not yet convinced that it is inevitable that PC style computing is going to go away,

00:32:53 ◼   ► or even be incredibly marginalized. I don't think those are necessarily givens. I would

00:33:00 ◼   ► be very surprised if either of those happened actually. And granted I'm wrong all the

00:33:03 ◼   ► time so this could happen next year, I don't know. But what I see is a lot of common tasks

00:33:10 ◼   ► moving to phones and tablets, sure that's fine. Phones and tablets are wonderful things.

00:33:16 ◼   ► I think honestly I think the phone is the way better thing but you know we live in abundance

00:33:21 ◼   ► in technology now, we can have both, cool, that's fine. But I think what we see is that

00:33:26 ◼   ► even the most dedicated people who love using iPads for all their work, for instance, still,

00:33:36 ◼   ► almost all of them have a Mac because there's like one or two or ten things that you need

00:33:43 ◼   ► the Mac to do that iOS not only can't do, but probably won't ever do. I don't see any

00:33:51 ◼   ► any change on the horizon that's going to change that.

00:33:55 ◼   ► So I feel like it's gonna kinda like settle in

00:33:58 ◼   ► where right now there's like a line

00:34:00 ◼   ► going in a certain direction,

00:34:01 ◼   ► but I think it's gonna kinda look more

00:34:02 ◼   ► like an asymptotic curve than like a straight line,

00:34:05 ◼   ► where it's going to flatten and plateau

00:34:08 ◼   ► and like there's going to be a certain baseline usage

00:34:12 ◼   ► that people will just need PC style computers and OSes

00:34:17 ◼   ► to do this chunk of common tasks. Because the PC, and again, I use the word PC here,

00:34:24 ◼   ► I really do mean both Windows and Mac PCs. And I refer to the PC style operating system

00:34:32 ◼   ► as opposed to like iOS and Android, and especially iOS, which is really more, I mean, the way

00:34:36 ◼   ► iOS works is almost the way a game console works these days. Like it's very much like

00:34:40 ◼   ► console computing, where you have like everything is very much locked down, much more proprietary,

00:34:46 ◼   ► you have much less control as the user,

00:34:48 ◼   ► there's much less potential for messing around

00:34:51 ◼   ► or customization or hacking things

00:34:53 ◼   ► or using little tools that can hook into the OS

00:34:56 ◼   ► and provide cool functionality.

00:34:58 ◼   ► There's almost none of that or very little of that.

00:35:01 ◼   ► And then the PC style operating system

00:35:03 ◼   ► allows you to basically install whatever you want

00:35:06 ◼   ► and the programs can do to a large degree

00:35:09 ◼   ► whatever they want.

00:35:10 ◼   ► And of course that comes with good and bad.

00:35:11 ◼   ► There's a lot of security issues with that.

00:35:12 ◼   ► However, ultimately what that allows

00:35:15 ◼   ► is for the PC to be a way, way more customizable

00:35:18 ◼   ► work environment, it allows it to address needs

00:35:21 ◼   ► that the platform vendor never imagined,

00:35:24 ◼   ► and it allows it to basically fill in all of the holes.

00:35:28 ◼   ► So there's all sorts of, what we call edge cases,

00:35:32 ◼   ► which has become a bad word for some reason,

00:35:34 ◼   ► there's all sorts of things that we have to do.

00:35:39 ◼   ► I also wanna be really clear here that thinking

00:35:43 ◼   ► that these edge cases only apply to geeks

00:35:46 ◼   ► and that geeks are a small market,

00:35:47 ◼   ► both of those things are wrong.

00:35:49 ◼   ► Geeks are a frickin' huge market

00:35:51 ◼   ► and everyone needs to do these things sometimes.

00:35:54 ◼   ► So anyway, PC style operating systems fill in these gaps.

00:35:58 ◼   ► They are the most versatile software ecosystems

00:36:02 ◼   ► that can ever, that have ever existed.

00:36:04 ◼   ► iOS and the lockdown kinda console computing model

00:36:10 ◼   ► that it provides is very nice in a number of ways.

00:36:14 ◼   ► But one thing it really isn't is versatile.

00:36:16 ◼   ► It's capable, you can do a lot of things,

00:36:18 ◼   ► but it's not versatile.

00:36:20 ◼   ► And PCOSs fill that in.

00:36:25 ◼   ► So there are so many needs that really can either

00:36:29 ◼   ► only be done on PCOSs or are just so ridiculous

00:36:33 ◼   ► to do on iOS that you only really will ever

00:36:37 ◼   ► want to do them on PCOSs.

00:36:39 ◼   ► And that I don't see changing.

00:36:43 ◼   ► I don't see some kind of massive shift on the horizon

00:36:45 ◼   ► where iOS is gonna suddenly allow you to hook in

00:36:49 ◼   ► and provide your own battery widget in the status bar

00:36:52 ◼   ► and allow apps to talk to each other more directly

00:36:54 ◼   ► and share files more directly.

00:36:56 ◼   ► I don't see that.

00:36:57 ◼   ► That would ruin iOS in a lot of ways.

00:37:01 ◼   ► So there's always gonna be massive types of things

00:37:04 ◼   ► that are really only possible on PCOSs.

00:37:07 ◼   ► And the percentage of time that you need to do one of those things will probably continue

00:37:13 ◼   ► to shrink over time the way it has. But I don't think those needs are going away, so

00:37:18 ◼   ► I don't foresee a future in which a lot of people who have ever needed a PC will stop

00:37:24 ◼   ► needing a PC completely. They might use it less, they might replace it less often, I

00:37:28 ◼   ► mean we see that now. But they're still going to use them. So for Apple to completely neglect

00:37:35 ◼   ► that which they're not doing yet, they're not completely neglecting it, they're partly

00:37:39 ◼   ► neglecting it now. But for Apple to basically slowly let that die I think is incredibly

00:37:45 ◼   ► unwise and I think that threatens their dominance in their more profitable markets. Because

00:37:52 ◼   ► part of the reason that people love iPhones so much is that a lot of the people, not all

00:37:57 ◼   ► of them, but a lot of the people who both use and buy iPhones and also who influence

00:38:02 ◼   ► other people to use and buy iPhones,

00:38:05 ◼   ► a lot of them are Mac users.

00:38:07 ◼   ► So if the Mac starts to wither or dies,

00:38:10 ◼   ► a lot of those people are gonna start looking around

00:38:13 ◼   ► and consider different phone platforms as well

00:38:15 ◼   ► because a lot of the advantage to using an iPhone

00:38:17 ◼   ► is how it integrates well with the Mac environment.

00:38:19 ◼   ► Not all of it, again, this doesn't represent everyone

00:38:21 ◼   ► who buys an iPhone, obviously it's a much bigger market,

00:38:23 ◼   ► but this is a non-trivial sized group

00:38:27 ◼   ► and it's a very influential group.

00:38:29 ◼   ► And so to completely throw away everything they've built with Mac OS, which is amazing,

00:38:36 ◼   ► to completely throw away all of the goodwill of all these millions of users that they've

00:38:40 ◼   ► built up over decades, I think is an incredible strategic error. Not to mention the tragedy

00:38:48 ◼   ► it is for those of us who use PCs, which is nearly everybody. Those of us who use PCs,

00:38:57 ◼   ► If Apple leaves or effectively neglects this market,

00:39:01 ◼   ► there's nothing better left.

00:39:04 ◼   ► Windows is not good.

00:39:06 ◼   ► We can probably get by on Windows, but it's not good.

00:39:10 ◼   ► Linux is really not made for this.

00:39:13 ◼   ► I mean, you can kind of wedge it in there,

00:39:17 ◼   ► but it doesn't do a great job of being a desktop OS,

00:39:19 ◼   ► and it serves many fewer needs.

00:39:22 ◼   ► Mac OS is the cream of the crop,

00:39:26 ◼   ► and no one's gonna come along and just make another Mac OS.

00:39:31 ◼   ► That takes 20 years, and really good talent,

00:39:34 ◼   ► and really good direction, and really good opportunities

00:39:36 ◼   ► that are probably not gonna happen ever again

00:39:38 ◼   ► in personal computers, or at least in our lifetimes.

00:39:40 ◼   ► So Apple, to some degree, like somebody on Twitter,

00:39:44 ◼   ► I'm sorry, I forget who right now,

00:39:46 ◼   ► somebody on Twitter said earlier that they almost have

00:39:47 ◼   ► like a social responsibility to the world of computing

00:39:50 ◼   ► to keep making Mac OS, to keep satisfying these needs.

00:39:54 ◼   ► - Oh, that's going way too far.

00:39:55 ◼   ► Is it?

00:39:56 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:39:57 ◼   ► - You know what?

00:39:58 ◼   ► I bet Steve Jobs would have agreed with that statement.

00:39:59 ◼   ► - Maybe.

00:40:00 ◼   ► I mean, who knows, but.

00:40:02 ◼   ► - Steve Jobs loved computers.

00:40:04 ◼   ► And even when new stuff came out, he loved computers.

00:40:07 ◼   ► And he, I think, I mean, I don't know him,

00:40:10 ◼   ► but I think that's the kind of thing

00:40:13 ◼   ► he would have agreed with.

00:40:15 ◼   ► You know, his whole thing like the glass of water in hell,

00:40:17 ◼   ► or the glass of ice water in hell,

00:40:18 ◼   ► like I really do think that he saw it

00:40:20 ◼   ► as like his responsibility to bring

00:40:22 ◼   ► good computing to the world.

00:40:24 ◼   ► And Apple still does that with iOS, certainly.

00:40:28 ◼   ► And the Mac is still good for now,

00:40:30 ◼   ► but it is very, very clear that the Mac is not

00:40:34 ◼   ► being given the priority and resources

00:40:38 ◼   ► that it needs to move forward.

00:40:40 ◼   ► It's very clear that whatever level of resources

00:40:44 ◼   ► and priority it's getting now is enough

00:40:46 ◼   ► to kinda Steve Ballmer the Mac line.

00:40:49 ◼   ► Like it'll keep going, it'll make some money,

00:40:52 ◼   ► it'll be profitable.

00:40:54 ◼   ► but the ship won't be able to turn,

00:40:56 ◼   ► because that takes more than what they're giving it.

00:41:00 ◼   ► And so if and when the market turns into something new,

00:41:05 ◼   ► whether that's VR, AR type stuff,

00:41:07 ◼   ► whether that is something like the Surface Studio,

00:41:10 ◼   ► or who knows what else will come along the way,

00:41:13 ◼   ► whatever is going to be the next big change

00:41:16 ◼   ► in PC style hardware and software,

00:41:19 ◼   ► I can almost guarantee that Apple will miss it.

00:41:22 ◼   ► I can almost guarantee that Mac OS will fall behind because they are simply not giving

00:41:26 ◼   ► it enough thought and priority to make it stay on top of the game.

00:41:31 ◼   ► They're doing well now because they had such a big lead over Windows in so many areas for

00:41:36 ◼   ► so long.

00:41:38 ◼   ► But eventually that lead's going to go away.

00:41:40 ◼   ► It's going to take a while because Microsoft is not very good at things.

00:41:44 ◼   ► But eventually something big is going to come to the world of PCs that people want, that

00:41:49 ◼   ► it will shift to.

00:41:50 ◼   ► Apple will not be ready. They absolutely will not be ready. And they will totally miss it,

00:41:57 ◼   ► and that's when they will lose the mat completely. Right now it seems like they're okay with

00:42:01 ◼   ► that outcome because of their actions, whatever they say, their actions say that they are

00:42:07 ◼   ► okay with that outcome. And I think that's a huge mistake.

00:42:10 ◼   ► We were sponsored this week, again, by CocoConf. Go to cococonf.com, use code ATP to save 50%

00:42:19 ◼   ► on tickets for Yosemite and Chicago.

00:42:22 ◼   ► CocoConf is a technical conference

00:42:23 ◼   ► for Apple developers and designers.

00:42:25 ◼   ► It's amazing.

00:42:27 ◼   ► Next year, on March 20th through 23rd,

00:42:29 ◼   ► CocoConf will be returning to Yosemite National Park

00:42:32 ◼   ► for its third Yosemite event.

00:42:34 ◼   ► This is again held at the Yosemite National,

00:42:36 ◼   ► in the Yosemite, I'm sorry.

00:42:38 ◼   ► This is again held at the Yosemite Lodge at the Falls,

00:42:40 ◼   ► right in the heart of Yosemite National Park.

00:42:42 ◼   ► It is a beautiful, picturesque venue.

00:42:45 ◼   ► In fact, there's even a guided photo walk

00:42:47 ◼   ► led by TED photographer James Duncan Davidson,

00:42:49 ◼   ► who is both an awesome photographer and a super nice guy.

00:42:51 ◼   ► And they have amazing speakers,

00:42:53 ◼   ► including Ashley Nelson Hornstein, Brent Simmons,

00:42:55 ◼   ► Daniel Steinberg, David Smith, Georgia Dow,

00:42:58 ◼   ► Jamie Newberry, Matt Drance, and Sebastian DeWitt.

00:43:01 ◼   ► Personally, I have seen almost all of these people speak.

00:43:04 ◼   ► They are great, they are top of their field.

00:43:07 ◼   ► I highly recommend that you go to this.

00:43:09 ◼   ► And you can also get music from James Dempsey

00:43:11 ◼   ► and the Breakpoints, and by our theme song author,

00:43:14 ◼   ► Jonathan Songaday Mann.

00:43:16 ◼   ► I've also seen both of these acts,

00:43:17 ◼   ► and they're also both amazing.

00:43:18 ◼   ► So this is a fantastic event in an amazing location.

00:43:23 ◼   ► Yosemite National Park, I mean it's this beautiful,

00:43:26 ◼   ► beautiful park, I can't even describe it.

00:43:29 ◼   ► And all of this is with these great speakers

00:43:32 ◼   ► with this great event, you gotta see it.

00:43:34 ◼   ► Go to cocacoff.com, use code ATP to see,

00:43:37 ◼   ► 15% on tickets for Yosemite, and also they have

00:43:40 ◼   ► a Coca-Cola Chicago event happening on April 21st and 22nd,

00:43:43 ◼   ► that will also use that 15% with the code ATP on that too.

00:43:47 ◼   ► So check it out, cocacomf.com for Yosemite in March

00:43:51 ◼   ► and Chicago in April.

00:43:53 ◼   ► Use code ATP to save 15% on ticket.

00:43:54 ◼   ► Thank you very much to cocacomf for sponsoring once again.

00:43:57 ◼   ► - So I don't know when it was, four, maybe five years ago.

00:44:03 ◼   ► There was this magazine that was called The Magazine.

00:44:13 ◼   ► And I pitched a story to the magazine about the importance of the manual transmission.

00:44:22 ◼   ► And much to my dismay, it was refused because somebody else has already, had already basically

00:44:28 ◼   ► claimed a story on the manual transmission. As it turns out, that story was by the terrible human

00:44:34 ◼   ► being Dan Morin, who, as it turns out, wrote a much better story than mine. And I will forget to

00:44:41 ◼   ► Lincoln in the show notes, but my version of the story is on my old Tumblr blog somewhere

00:44:47 ◼   ► that you can dig up if you're interested. The manual transmission on a modern car means a

00:44:54 ◼   ► tremendous amount to me. And I don't say that to be funny, I don't say that in a hyperbolic way.

00:44:59 ◼   ► I genuinely mean that. I will be devastated when there comes a time that the only car that I can

00:45:08 ◼   ► by with a manual transmission is one that I don't want.

00:45:11 ◼   ► Say, for example, a pickup truck.

00:45:13 ◼   ► And I'm not saying a pickup is wrong for other people,

00:45:16 ◼   ► but it's not the kind of car that I want.

00:45:18 ◼   ► - Well, it's an edge case, you can just ignore it.

00:45:21 ◼   ► - I know you're being snarky, but you're kind of right.

00:45:24 ◼   ► - I'm not, it's like the most popular selling vehicle

00:45:27 ◼   ► in America. (laughs)

00:45:29 ◼   ► - I see your point.

00:45:31 ◼   ► - It's actually an excellent analogy,

00:45:33 ◼   ► because pickup trucks are the kind of thing

00:45:34 ◼   ► that most people never think about,

00:45:37 ◼   ► but they're actually everywhere,

00:45:39 ◼   ► and tons of people need them to do their jobs.

00:45:41 ◼   ► And a lot of people just like them.

00:45:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, you're right.

00:45:44 ◼   ► And you're right, that is a pretty good analogy,

00:45:46 ◼   ► but it ruins my whole story, so I'm gonna ignore it.

00:45:50 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:45:51 ◼   ► - Okay, feel free, move on.

00:45:52 ◼   ► - But the point I'm driving at is,

00:45:54 ◼   ► is that for me, I want a four-door passenger car

00:45:59 ◼   ► with three pedals in it.

00:46:02 ◼   ► That's what I want.

00:46:03 ◼   ► And to me, driving a car with only two pedals is not enjoyable.

00:46:13 ◼   ► In some ways, I think it's a little bit unsafe, and I know a lot of people are going to disagree

00:46:16 ◼   ► with that, and that's fine.

00:46:18 ◼   ► But I just don't...it's not for me.

00:46:21 ◼   ► I don't care for it.

00:46:23 ◼   ► And until I cannot anymore, I will always choose cars that have a manually operated

00:46:31 ◼   ► clutch.

00:46:33 ◼   ► what I want, that's what I'm interested in, and that's what I will do until I have a compelling

00:46:40 ◼   ► reason not to. As in, my left leg is broken, or I'm down a limb somewhere, whatever. All of that said,

00:46:49 ◼   ► I don't think there's any question that I am one of few, and that the rest of the world not only

00:46:58 ◼   ► is moving on, but has moved on. It's a miracle—that's a bit overblown, but I'll stick with it—it's

00:47:05 ◼   ► a miracle that you can buy a 3-series BMW with a 6-speed. It's a miracle that Tina was

00:47:12 ◼   ► able to get a 6-speed Accord in 2016. And it's clear that you guys, Jon, had to go through

00:47:20 ◼   ► some hoops to get it. It's not like you pulled it off a lot, it's not like they shipped it

00:47:23 ◼   ► in from Connecticut or New York or something like that. It was built specifically for you

00:47:27 ◼   ► because nobody else wanted that. It's clear to me that driving a manual transmission is

00:47:33 ◼   ► not long for this world. But why? I love it. In so many ways, I think it's better. But

00:47:41 ◼   ► the fact of the matter is, I'm one of a very, very small breed, and I'm one of a group that

00:47:48 ◼   ► is going away in ever-increasing numbers. Look at the take rate of the manual transmission

00:47:53 ◼   ► on M3s and M4s. They're plummeting. The only reason that the M5, the most recent M5, the

00:47:59 ◼   ► F10, it's F10, right? The only reason the F10, M5, god, this sounds like a pickup. Anyway,

00:48:05 ◼   ► the only reason the most modern M5 had a manual transmission was because of Americans, of

00:48:10 ◼   ► all people, which is really weird. And it was only in America. I believe that's true.

00:48:15 ◼   ► I might have my facts wrong, but it doesn't matter. You get the point.

00:48:17 ◼   ► - At least North America. - Right, right. So nobody else seems to want

00:48:21 ◼   ► transmission. And to be honest, on paper and by most metrics, the transmission that

00:48:26 ◼   ► Marco's M5 had is better. It's better in pretty much every measurable way. But

00:48:33 ◼   ► here it is. I'm going to be really frickin' pissed that whenever I buy my

00:48:40 ◼   ► next car, it's a 50/50 shot, I won't be able to get a six-speed. And when I

00:48:45 ◼   ► looked for my car, which admittedly I got used, which to some degree makes things a

00:48:49 ◼   ► lot worse but it took me something like six months to find this car because to find a 335 with the M Sport

00:48:57 ◼   ► package in white is hard.

00:48:59 ◼   ► That wasn't a criteria you big jerk. To find a 335... It just happened to be white. It did! Like all of your other cars.

00:49:06 ◼   ► No, the other ones were deliberate. This one was an accident. But anyway,

00:49:09 ◼   ► the point is to find one with an M Sport package, that was really difficult.

00:49:15 ◼   ► But to find any 3-series with a 6-speed? Get out of town.

00:49:19 ◼   ► Because you're going to be waiting forever. It's impossible.

00:49:23 ◼   ► But here it is. That's what I want. And that's what's right for me.

00:49:27 ◼   ► I don't care if it's not right for you. It's what's right for me.

00:49:30 ◼   ► But the fact of the matter is, I'm a dying breed. I'm one of few.

00:49:35 ◼   ► And I cannot expect BMW to forevermore cater to Captain Casey.

00:49:41 ◼   ► It's just not going to work. It's not profitable. It's not manageable.

00:49:45 ◼   ► It's not understandable, it's not reasonable, it's not gonna work.

00:49:51 ◼   ► All that being said, I love the Mac.

00:49:54 ◼   ► Hand on heart, I cannot begin to describe how much I love the Mac.

00:49:58 ◼   ► I feel so much faster on the Mac than I do on iOS.

00:50:02 ◼   ► That doesn't mean I can't do equivalent things on iOS in most cases, but I love the Mac.

00:50:07 ◼   ► I feel hamstrung when I'm on an iOS device.

00:50:11 ◼   ► I feel crippled.

00:50:13 ◼   ► I feel like I have handcuffs on.

00:50:15 ◼   ► That's not the case for everyone.

00:50:17 ◼   ► Clearly, people like Federico and Mike Hurley

00:50:21 ◼   ► and so many other people have done amazing things on iOS.

00:50:24 ◼   ► I'm not trying to say that iOS isn't right or good

00:50:27 ◼   ► or great or amazing.

00:50:28 ◼   ► For me, it is not the right answer.

00:50:32 ◼   ► And I love the Mac.

00:50:33 ◼   ► I feel at home on the Mac.

00:50:36 ◼   ► I feel free on the Mac.

00:50:38 ◼   ► And yes, that sounds really ridiculous and lame

00:50:40 ◼   ► and kind of granola, but I mean it.

00:50:42 ◼   ► - No, it doesn't. - I feel free on the Mac.

00:50:44 ◼   ► I really do feel free on the Mac.

00:50:46 ◼   ► I agree with you, Marco, that I will be devastated

00:50:49 ◼   ► if the Mac goes away.

00:50:51 ◼   ► But the more I look around,

00:50:53 ◼   ► and the more I see the people around me,

00:50:56 ◼   ► the more clear it is that I am not one of the many,

00:51:00 ◼   ► I'm one of the few.

00:51:01 ◼   ► And at some point, at some point,

00:51:05 ◼   ► this group that loves the manual transmission,

00:51:08 ◼   ► this group that loves macOS,

00:51:10 ◼   ► isn't gonna be big enough to really frickin' matter anymore.

00:51:13 ◼   ► and I will be devastated. I mean that word, I use that word deliberately. I will be friggin'

00:51:20 ◼   ► devastated when that time comes. Maybe not as much as you two, but if not, really damn close.

00:51:26 ◼   ► Because as much as I beat the two of you up about, you know, conventioning about the Mac,

00:51:31 ◼   ► and the state of the Mac, and this and that, I agree with you. I want the Mac to live forever.

00:51:36 ◼   ► But to me, it's becoming more and more clear that I'm not going to have a manual transmission much

00:51:41 ◼   ► longer. And I'm not convinced, but I'm not terribly sure that I'm going to have a Mac

00:51:47 ◼   ► much longer. And I think the reality of the situation is all three of us are just going

00:51:52 ◼   ► to have to come to grips with that. And it doesn't make me happy. It doesn't make me

00:51:55 ◼   ► smile. It makes me really damn sad. Not to the point that I'm losing sleep over John,

00:51:59 ◼   ► but it makes me really damn sad. And I hope that I'm wrong. God, I hope I'm wrong. But

00:52:05 ◼   ► at some point, all three of us need to look around and say, you know what? We aren't the

00:52:10 ◼   ► ones that matter anymore. And I look at Erin, who is by every measure a far more normal

00:52:17 ◼   ► human than I am, in every measurable way. And I look at her and I think to myself, she

00:52:22 ◼   ► has this MacBook Air, and yes, it went underwater twice, but nevertheless it's working today.

00:52:28 ◼   ► [laughter]

00:52:29 ◼   ► Which is, to clarify for any listeners who forgot, it was Casey's fault it went underwater,

00:52:33 ◼   ► not Erin's.

00:52:34 ◼   ► Absolutely, my fault.

00:52:36 ◼   ► But she very rarely uses her MacBook Air.

00:52:40 ◼   ► Why? Because her iPhone works for her.

00:52:43 ◼   ► I gave her my old iPad, the first Retina iPad, was that the third generation iPad? Doesn't matter.

00:52:53 ◼   ► I gave her my old iPad, she never touched it because her phone was enough for her.

00:52:57 ◼   ► And I think that for most people, that's pretty much the truth.

00:53:02 ◼   ► the truth. Maybe not at work, but in Erin's case, she's a stay-at-home mom, so that is her work,

00:53:07 ◼   ► actually, come to think of it. For a lot of people, they don't need Macs. Now, take Tiff,

00:53:13 ◼   ► for example. Tiff is also a stay-at-home mom, but she has other things that she does, and she

00:53:17 ◼   ► absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, needs a Mac. So I'm not trying to say this is universal,

00:53:21 ◼   ► but I take Erin as an exemplar of somebody who is normal or a lot more normal than I am, and she

00:53:28 ◼   ► does have a Mac and she does use her Mac, but if I told her that her Mac was gone forever,

00:53:33 ◼   ► say for example if I dumped a bunch of water on it, I think she'd be okay. And none of this makes

00:53:40 ◼   ► me happy. I'm not pleased to say these things, but in summary, I think all three of us need to

00:53:45 ◼   ► realize that we're part of a group that's getting ever smaller and that's ever less profitable,

00:53:51 ◼   ► and that probably doesn't matter that much to Apple. And that sucks. It totally sucks,

00:53:57 ◼   ► but it's reality. **Matt Stauffer**

00:54:00 ◼   ► I don't know if we want to refute all the things you say, because I think Marco and I could

00:54:03 ◼   ► rebut many of this, but I want to point out that both of you seem to be uninterested in my thought

00:54:11 ◼   ► experiments on assigning it to you as a homework assignment, because right now you're still talking

00:54:15 ◼   ► about whether or not what we think might happen is happening. And I'm still more interested at

00:54:21 ◼   ► this point in how you would tell the difference between the two scenarios, between the Cayce

00:54:26 ◼   ► scenario where we're stick shift drivers or Apple II users and it's just happening to us,

00:54:31 ◼   ► and the scenario, the more Marco scenario, where Apple is doing something dumb and

00:54:36 ◼   ► really they should be supporting the Mac because if they don't those needs aren't going away.

00:54:42 ◼   ► And again, not the specific arguments on either side of it, but how if you are in the middle of

00:54:47 ◼   ► it as a Mac user, as an Apple II user, as a stick shift driver, what should you look for to

00:54:53 ◼   ► distinguish those two situations, right? And I'm not sure I have great answers either, but

00:54:58 ◼   ► I think it's something worth thinking about. So we could table that as a homework assignment,

00:55:02 ◼   ► I suppose. And on the specific stick shift things and on the Mac, I mean, like,

00:55:06 ◼   ► I'll just throw out a few of them, like so. The idea that we're shrinking, like, percentage-wise,

00:55:12 ◼   ► Mac market share, the line for Mac market share in the, you know, just in any kind of line you

00:55:20 ◼   ► you want to put overall PC market share, Mac sales, years versus years. It looks way better

00:55:25 ◼   ► than the stick shift line. Like way better. The stick shift line fell off a cliff years

00:55:30 ◼   ► ago and is in a basement. And the Mac line, if you look at it on all the graphs, it's

00:55:34 ◼   ► boring, but it's pretty steady. So regardless of, you know, just in terms of degree, I mean

00:55:41 ◼   ► you could still totally be right about it or whatever, but in terms of degree, I'm going

00:55:44 ◼   ► to say that the Mac is not in a stick shift situation. I mean we would know it if it was

00:55:47 ◼   ► If it was in a sick situation, I wouldn't have to go to seven different stores and beg

00:55:52 ◼   ► people to sell me a car.

00:55:55 ◼   ► I have money.

00:55:56 ◼   ► I want to give you – will you give me – no, I swear.

00:55:58 ◼   ► I talk to so many dealers.

00:56:01 ◼   ► Everybody wanted to sell me a CBT accord.

00:56:02 ◼   ► Nobody wanted my money.

00:56:03 ◼   ► I'm like waving dollar bills in their face.

00:56:05 ◼   ► I have money.

00:56:06 ◼   ► I'll do your finance thing.

00:56:08 ◼   ► Whatever incentives you have, I'll do them.

00:56:10 ◼   ► No, no, we don't have any of those.

00:56:11 ◼   ► Maybe try back later.

00:56:12 ◼   ► Maybe – anyway.

00:56:13 ◼   ► So we're not in that situation yet.

00:56:16 ◼   ► And the other thing on what Marco was talking about, one aspect that would show that Apple

00:56:22 ◼   ► is screwing this up, and this has happened in the past to Apple specifically, is that

00:56:29 ◼   ► if Apple doesn't fulfill the needs of some market and that market is heavily invested

00:56:35 ◼   ► in the Mac, I mean, that can wreck companies, that can really disrupt the industry, but

00:56:40 ◼   ► more than any other type of business.

00:56:43 ◼   ► People that need computers, PC style computers for professional needs are

00:56:49 ◼   ► the most willing and able like as an industry, not as an individual company

00:56:53 ◼   ► and perhaps, but the most willing and able to bail and go to something else.

00:56:58 ◼   ► If they're using max for video editing and Apple seems not interested in video

00:57:01 ◼   ► editing, the whole industry will shift to a different product on a different

00:57:06 ◼   ► platform. Like, so they'll stop final cut and they'll go to avid or, you know,

00:57:09 ◼   ► Same thing with audio editing applications or 3D, 3D for a little while looks like the

00:57:15 ◼   ► Mac might be a factor, but it's like, nope, Windows NT or just has SGI.

00:57:19 ◼   ► People switch from SGI's to Windows NT, which seems unheard of.

00:57:23 ◼   ► They'll switch.

00:57:24 ◼   ► If you don't fill their needs and they still need to do this thing and it seems like you're

00:57:27 ◼   ► not supporting them anymore, they will ditch you and retrain everybody and buy all new

00:57:32 ◼   ► hardware and a whole bunch of companies will go out of business because they won't make

00:57:34 ◼   ► that transition and they'll hate you forever and they will change.

00:57:38 ◼   ► One good way to tell if Apple is being smart about this or not is if they abandon these

00:57:43 ◼   ► industries and people still need to professionally edit video on a PC style workstation and Apple

00:57:48 ◼   ► isn't interested in selling them hardware that works with their needs, they will switch

00:57:51 ◼   ► to Windows.

00:57:52 ◼   ► They absolutely will.

00:57:53 ◼   ► They will hate it.

00:57:54 ◼   ► They may be sad.

00:57:55 ◼   ► The people who are dying to Apple users will be sad.

00:57:57 ◼   ► Some companies might go out of business because they can't absorb the cost to turn over all

00:58:01 ◼   ► the hardware and retrain everybody, but they absolutely will switch.

00:58:05 ◼   ► And that's a bad sign for Apple.

00:58:07 ◼   ► And my final point, I know we need to get to the Q&A part and we will.

00:58:11 ◼   ► My final point is that if there are any Apple people listening, hi Craig, to this podcast,

00:58:17 ◼   ► and if you're sitting there as like an important person inside Apple and you're hearing all

00:58:22 ◼   ► this moaning about these three diehard Mac users who are talking as if the Mac is already

00:58:28 ◼   ► dead or talking about that possibility and you're like, "How is this happening?"

00:58:34 ◼   ► Maybe they disagree with what we're doing with the Mac, but like, we must be, you know,

00:58:38 ◼   ► if you have this feeling like, what are we doing to make these customers, our most loyal

00:58:42 ◼   ► customers, our customers that love to give us money and want to buy Macs, and they think

00:58:46 ◼   ► the platform is dead, like, if you have that feeling, like, that something has gone terribly

00:58:51 ◼   ► wrong, it could be one of two things.

00:58:53 ◼   ► One, that you are one of those people inside Apple that I was just talking about who feels

00:58:56 ◼   ► the same way about the Mac as we do and is totally honest and every time they get up

00:58:59 ◼   ► on a stage and say we care about the Mac, it's really important, blah, blah, blah, but

00:59:03 ◼   ► but maybe the rest of the company doesn't agree with you.

00:59:05 ◼   ► Or two, the whole company's all on the same page

00:59:08 ◼   ► that the Mac is really important

00:59:10 ◼   ► and you're doing the world's worst job

00:59:11 ◼   ► of convincing your most loyal customers of this fact.

00:59:14 ◼   ► But pretend it's the truth.

00:59:16 ◼   ► If it is the truth, you're doing a bad job

00:59:19 ◼   ► of convincing Mac users of that fact.

00:59:22 ◼   ► So no matter how you slice this,

00:59:24 ◼   ► something Apple is doing is wrong.

00:59:27 ◼   ► Strategically, PR-wise, marketing timing.

00:59:31 ◼   ► - Yeah, well that's true, specifically on the issue

00:59:36 ◼   ► of how Apple's handling the Mac.

00:59:39 ◼   ► There is no way around the fact that something Apple

00:59:41 ◼   ► is doing is wrong.

00:59:42 ◼   ► It's just a question of whether they're wrong

00:59:44 ◼   ► by not being honest with us, they're wrong by not being able

00:59:48 ◼   ► to convince us of a thing that really is true,

00:59:50 ◼   ► or they're wrong that they shouldn't,

00:59:51 ◼   ► they are de-emphasizing the Mac and they shouldn't be.

00:59:54 ◼   ► And all those possibilities are kind of up in the air,

00:59:56 ◼   ► and I think we've talked about a lot of them,

00:59:57 ◼   ► but like something is going wrong here.

01:00:00 ◼   ► As is true with so many things in 2016, something has gone wrong.

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01:01:27 ◼   ► (guitar strum)

01:01:29 ◼   ► - All right, Jon, so you've come up with some ground rules

01:01:31 ◼   ► about the Q&A section,

01:01:32 ◼   ► which I actually think were quite clever.

01:01:34 ◼   ► So would you like--

01:01:35 ◼   ► - I love that you had to have rules.

01:01:37 ◼   ► All right, we're gonna do Q&A, but they're gonna be rules.

01:01:41 ◼   ► - Those rules are mostly for YouTube,

01:01:42 ◼   ► but for the people who are listening,

01:01:44 ◼   ► I just wanted to tell you. - Oh, really?

01:01:45 ◼   ► They're for us too, I see, okay.

01:01:47 ◼   ► - Well, you know what I mean, for us, not for the audience.

01:01:49 ◼   ► But as far as the audience is concerned, here's the deal.

01:01:52 ◼   ► We asked for questions just today,

01:01:53 ◼   ► So you had one day to send in questions,

01:01:55 ◼   ► you were supposed to send it through the email form.

01:01:57 ◼   ► If you sent it through Twitter,

01:01:57 ◼   ► you didn't follow directions.

01:01:59 ◼   ► I maybe I didn't specifically say don't send it through

01:02:02 ◼   ► but I totally said, send it here.

01:02:03 ◼   ► That's what the colon means.

01:02:04 ◼   ► It means that in this URL, there you go.

01:02:06 ◼   ► Anyway, we got tons of questions.

01:02:09 ◼   ► That's great.

01:02:10 ◼   ► A lot of people ask repeat questions.

01:02:12 ◼   ► We, I picked and Casey picked

01:02:15 ◼   ► and I don't know if Marco picked any,

01:02:16 ◼   ► a subset of these questions.

01:02:17 ◼   ► So if you send in your question,

01:02:19 ◼   ► it's probably not gonna get answered

01:02:20 ◼   ► because we had tons of questions and I just picked them out.

01:02:22 ◼   ► Sometimes you ask 17 questions and I just took two.

01:02:25 ◼   ► Sometimes I rephrase your question.

01:02:27 ◼   ► Sometimes 17 people ask the same question.

01:02:29 ◼   ► And the person that I pick whose name is attached to it

01:02:32 ◼   ► is basically random.

01:02:33 ◼   ► So this is the system.

01:02:35 ◼   ► It's not a great system, but it's a system we have.

01:02:36 ◼   ► This was done in a rush in today.

01:02:39 ◼   ► What we're gonna try and do with the questions,

01:02:41 ◼   ► because if we didn't do this,

01:02:42 ◼   ► we would answer two questions total,

01:02:44 ◼   ► is to do them quickly.

01:02:45 ◼   ► So rather than answer your question thoroughly,

01:02:48 ◼   ► 'cause a lot of these questions like,

01:02:51 ◼   ► what's the best thing that Apple did last year?

01:02:52 ◼   ► That's a whole show.

01:02:53 ◼   ► Like that's not a, you know.

01:02:55 ◼   ► So those questions are still in there.

01:02:57 ◼   ► And our challenge, as the people who are speaking

01:02:59 ◼   ► on this podcast, our challenge is to go against

01:03:01 ◼   ► everything that's in our instincts

01:03:02 ◼   ► and to try to answer these questions

01:03:05 ◼   ► with one or two sentences and then move on.

01:03:08 ◼   ► Which means we're not gonna be able to have

01:03:09 ◼   ► a big discussion about them,

01:03:10 ◼   ► but hopefully we will get to more of your questions.

01:03:12 ◼   ► So that's the strategy.

01:03:14 ◼   ► - All right, so I guess I will start the MC process

01:03:18 ◼   ► and then if somebody else takes over, that's fine.

01:03:21 ◼   ► We begin with Brian Hamilton, who asks,

01:03:22 ◼   ► "How long does it take for Marco to edit an episode?"

01:03:25 ◼   ► I'm gonna put that aside for just a split second.

01:03:27 ◼   ► "Does Casey still do his listen through?

01:03:29 ◼   ► "The turnaround for episodes has been much faster lately."

01:03:32 ◼   ► So, quick recap, it used to be that I would listen

01:03:35 ◼   ► through each episode and I would mark when somebody coughed

01:03:38 ◼   ► or we cross-talked or whatever,

01:03:39 ◼   ► then I would send that list of timestamps to Marco

01:03:41 ◼   ► and he would do the actual edit.

01:03:43 ◼   ► I would say it was between six months and a year ago

01:03:45 ◼   ► that it became obvious to both Marco and I

01:03:48 ◼   ► that my listen-through was getting kind of redundant,

01:03:50 ◼   ► and so I stopped doing that.

01:03:52 ◼   ► I don't know, Marco, do you remember when?

01:03:54 ◼   ► - I don't know, maybe halfway through the show.

01:03:57 ◼   ► - Okay, so with that said,

01:03:58 ◼   ► how long does it take you to edit an episode?

01:04:01 ◼   ► - Total, with all the work involved

01:04:03 ◼   ► and posting and everything,

01:04:04 ◼   ► it helps a lot that you do the show notes now,

01:04:07 ◼   ► which I used to do the show notes,

01:04:09 ◼   ► and it put too much time on me,

01:04:12 ◼   ► so I was having to spend way longer,

01:04:14 ◼   ► and we were doing back and forth,

01:04:15 ◼   ► that it took way, I had to do my part,

01:04:18 ◼   ► and you had to do your part, took forever.

01:04:20 ◼   ► Now, total editing time is probably about

01:04:24 ◼   ► three to four hours for a two hour show.

01:04:28 ◼   ► - Which is a lot of time, but doesn't seem terrible to me.

01:04:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, and a lot of that is also because I'm using Logic,

01:04:34 ◼   ► and Logic is not made for this,

01:04:36 ◼   ► and this is one of the reasons I want to make my own editor,

01:04:39 ◼   ► because I think if I made my own editor

01:04:41 ◼   ► that was custom optimized for editing podcasts,

01:04:44 ◼   ► I think that three to four hours could be one to two hours,

01:04:48 ◼   ► and with a lot less mousing and typing.

01:04:50 ◼   ► - All right, I wanna elaborate, but I'm gonna move on.

01:04:52 ◼   ► Stephen Ham asks,

01:04:53 ◼   ► "Have you read the Sweet Home Guide to toaster ovens?"

01:04:55 ◼   ► I think this is mostly meant for Jon.

01:04:57 ◼   ► "Have you tried their pick?

01:04:59 ◼   ► "Do you agree with their methodology?"

01:05:01 ◼   ► - This is a super common question

01:05:02 ◼   ► to get it on Twitter all the time.

01:05:04 ◼   ► I don't always respond to it

01:05:05 ◼   ► 'cause it's just so common at this point.

01:05:07 ◼   ► "Yes, I have read the Sweet Home Guide to toaster ovens.

01:05:10 ◼   ► "Yes, I have tried their pick.

01:05:11 ◼   ► "Casey has a nice blog post

01:05:13 ◼   ► It lists all my toaster reviews.

01:05:15 ◼   ► And if you go to that page, which I've sent to many people, their pick is on it.

01:05:18 ◼   ► So you can hear what I have to say about it.

01:05:19 ◼   ► Do you agree with their methodology?

01:05:22 ◼   ► I have different priorities.

01:05:23 ◼   ► For example, their top pick, the reason I dinged it was it was smaller than I would

01:05:28 ◼   ► like.

01:05:29 ◼   ► It doesn't fit as much stuff in it, and so that kind of disqualifies it for being able

01:05:33 ◼   ► to put four big slices of bread or whatever in there.

01:05:36 ◼   ► And the UI was really weird.

01:05:37 ◼   ► So they prioritize the UI less than I do.

01:05:41 ◼   ► And the size is not – I mean, how could they make size the factor?

01:05:44 ◼   ► They don't know what size toaster you need.

01:05:45 ◼   ► They're just trying to say this thing toasts really quickly, which I said in my review,

01:05:48 ◼   ► and really evenly.

01:05:49 ◼   ► So yeah, that's the thing with any reviews, including the Sweet Homes.

01:05:53 ◼   ► You read them to find out information, but you also are trying to find out what they

01:05:57 ◼   ► prioritize and you have to compare that to how you prioritize.

01:06:00 ◼   ► So it's not as if I disagree with anything they did, it's just that we have different

01:06:03 ◼   ► priorities and you can hear that in the reviews.

01:06:05 ◼   ► All right.

01:06:06 ◼   ► Mike Reinhart asks, "Marco, what apps on your phone

01:06:09 ◼   ► "do you have red badges?"

01:06:11 ◼   ► And to give a little context here,

01:06:14 ◼   ► Marco has made it very clear over the years,

01:06:16 ◼   ► and I think you're right,

01:06:17 ◼   ► that having these red badges with counts and whatnot

01:06:20 ◼   ► is kind of ridiculous and stress-inducing.

01:06:22 ◼   ► So Marco, what apps have red badges?

01:06:24 ◼   ► - It's actually a pretty short list.

01:06:27 ◼   ► The two that always have a red badge are phone and mail.

01:06:31 ◼   ► And the reasons for that are basically

01:06:33 ◼   ► I suck at responding to email,

01:06:34 ◼   ► I use Marco's Unread as an organizational tool,

01:06:36 ◼   ► which I know is wrong, and with phone,

01:06:38 ◼   ► I never listen to my voicemail.

01:06:40 ◼   ► So I have voicemails here, let me see.

01:06:42 ◼   ► My earliest unplayed voicemail is from October 3rd.

01:06:46 ◼   ► I currently have 10 of them.

01:06:49 ◼   ► - So that's why you leave the badge on that?

01:06:52 ◼   ► Even though you, like, that would seem like

01:06:54 ◼   ► the reason you turn it off, because it's meaningless,

01:06:55 ◼   ► 'cause it's always gonna be red, right?

01:06:57 ◼   ► - You know, I've never even considered the possibility

01:06:58 ◼   ► that I could turn it off, I guess I'll look into that.

01:07:00 ◼   ► I also have one on photos right now,

01:07:02 ◼   ► just 'cause there's like some shared album,

01:07:04 ◼   ► probably from Casey that has something on red.

01:07:07 ◼   ► I have one on the Apple podcast.

01:07:08 ◼   ► - Speckle in the sunglasses, spoiler alert.

01:07:10 ◼   ► - Cool, I have one on the Apple podcast app

01:07:13 ◼   ► 'cause I have a folder of a handful of other podcast apps.

01:07:16 ◼   ► Basically as I'm designing Overcast,

01:07:18 ◼   ► I try to make sure that I don't rip off

01:07:20 ◼   ► other apps too closely.

01:07:21 ◼   ► So if I'm adding a new feature, for instance,

01:07:24 ◼   ► and I have to design the UI, I basically go and check,

01:07:27 ◼   ► am I ripping off a competitor really clearly here

01:07:31 ◼   ► or am I doing my own thing?

01:07:32 ◼   ► 'cause I'd like to do my own thing whenever I can.

01:07:34 ◼   ► So I always have podcast apps that are showing

01:07:36 ◼   ► their own unread badges that I didn't ask for.

01:07:38 ◼   ► And then finally, I have a folder that shows

01:07:40 ◼   ► an unread badge of 1500 because it is actually

01:07:44 ◼   ► underscore David Smith pedometer plus plus app

01:07:47 ◼   ► that is showing that as my step count for the day

01:07:48 ◼   ► which is actually horrible.

01:07:50 ◼   ► And I just open up the app and it's actually 5800.

01:07:52 ◼   ► So that was just out of date.

01:07:54 ◼   ► But anyway, that's it.

01:07:56 ◼   ► Everything else I have on my phone is either

01:07:58 ◼   ► some app that I turned it off for

01:07:59 ◼   ► or a game that doesn't use it.

01:08:00 ◼   ► So that's it.

01:08:01 ◼   ► Brian Moon asks, "How did all of you meet initially?

01:08:04 ◼   ► "Online, through Mac/software channels,

01:08:07 ◼   ► "or perhaps at a car dealership?"

01:08:09 ◼   ► So I've told this story in bits and pieces,

01:08:14 ◼   ► but I don't know that I've ever told

01:08:16 ◼   ► the complete version of the story,

01:08:17 ◼   ► and part of that is because I thought it was kind of fun

01:08:20 ◼   ► to have a little bit of ambiguity

01:08:22 ◼   ► about how the three of us met,

01:08:24 ◼   ► but 201 episodes in, perhaps it's time to remove all doubt.

01:08:28 ◼   ► So Marco and I met when we were 10.

01:08:32 ◼   ► Does that sound reasonable?

01:08:34 ◼   ► Something like that?

01:08:34 ◼   ► - Something like that.

01:08:35 ◼   ► - My recollection, and I'll give you a chance

01:08:37 ◼   ► to interrupt in a second here, Marco.

01:08:39 ◼   ► My recollection is that your mom was a school teacher

01:08:42 ◼   ► and for the summers you would go to a lake

01:08:45 ◼   ► in upstate New York.

01:08:46 ◼   ► And my grandparents, my dad's parents,

01:08:49 ◼   ► had a house on the same lake.

01:08:51 ◼   ► And it was one of those situations

01:08:53 ◼   ► where we were like the only kids that were anywhere nearby.

01:08:56 ◼   ► it came to light to our mutual caregivers that, "Oh, we have, you know, boy children around the

01:09:03 ◼   ► same age, they should hang out." And so we would hang out and basically write either "Choose your

01:09:09 ◼   ► own adventure games in VB1" or "Play too much Transport Tycoon," just generally be nerds and

01:09:14 ◼   ► get yelled at to go outside. And then we kind of lost touch for a long time. And around the time

01:09:20 ◼   ► that Tumblr started, or right around the time that we graduated college, at least that's my

01:09:24 ◼   ► recollection. We got back in touch and then I visited, or well, Aaron and I at this point

01:09:30 ◼   ► actually, visited you at Tumblr and then ended up meeting up with Tiff and I think this was...

01:09:34 ◼   ► It was '09.

01:09:35 ◼   ► Yeah, and so we got back in touch after that and we got close again. You know, there was never like

01:09:41 ◼   ► a "screw you, man, I hate you." It was just, we fell out of touch. And so we got close again and

01:09:45 ◼   ► then of course, because of that, I started listening to Build and Analyze and Hypocritical.

01:09:48 ◼   ► And then when I started going to WWDC in 2011, I ended up meeting John through Marco. And then

01:09:54 ◼   ► And then Jon and I kind of got to be friendly and then eventually got to be relatively close.

01:09:58 ◼   ► And then, you know, the whole story of me needling Marco, "Hey, we should do a car show.

01:10:02 ◼   ► We should do a car show."

01:10:03 ◼   ► And Marco said, "Hey, you know, we should get Jon involved because, you know, Jon also

01:10:06 ◼   ► just stopped a podcast and would probably like to talk cars."

01:10:09 ◼   ► And so we did neutral and then here we are on ATP 201 episodes later.

01:10:15 ◼   ► That was as brief as I think I can reasonably make it.

01:10:17 ◼   ► It's pretty good.

01:10:18 ◼   ► Any thoughts from either of you?

01:10:20 ◼   ► There's no thoughts, no time for thoughts.

01:10:23 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:10:24 ◼   ► Cody Mims asks, question mostly for Marco,

01:10:26 ◼   ► why do you give Stitcher/Google Play Music flack

01:10:29 ◼   ► for being a podcast walled garden, but not iTunes?

01:10:32 ◼   ► Not saying they're not bad for other reasons,

01:10:34 ◼   ► but iTunes isn't exactly the wild west.

01:10:37 ◼   ► - This is a pretty easy one, it's a question of degree.

01:10:40 ◼   ► iTunes is a directory of public RSS feeds.

01:10:43 ◼   ► Once you subscribe to a podcast on iTunes,

01:10:46 ◼   ► the software then goes directly to the RSS feed

01:10:48 ◼   ► every single time, downloads the episodes

01:10:50 ◼   ► directly from your server,

01:10:51 ◼   ► wherever you specify the feed to point to.

01:10:54 ◼   ► And iTunes is basically out of the loop

01:10:55 ◼   ► after that very first browse and subscribe action.

01:10:59 ◼   ► That's it.

01:11:00 ◼   ► So whereas Stitcher and Google Play Music

01:11:03 ◼   ► are their own entirely proprietary

01:11:06 ◼   ► crawling playback stats downloading platforms.

01:11:10 ◼   ► And you have to do all sorts of giving up data to them

01:11:15 ◼   ► and agreeing to their terms and everything.

01:11:17 ◼   ► Where iTunes is really about as much of a directory

01:11:20 ◼   ► as Yahoo was for the web back in the day.

01:11:22 ◼   ► It's like iTunes is happy to have you go there,

01:11:25 ◼   ► find what you want, and then iTunes is removed

01:11:29 ◼   ► from the loop, they're cut out of the loop,

01:11:30 ◼   ► and then you're just dealing with the feed.

01:11:32 ◼   ► So basically the way Apple does things with podcasts

01:11:35 ◼   ► is in support of an open ecosystem.

01:11:38 ◼   ► Whereas the way Stitcher and Google Play Music

01:11:41 ◼   ► are doing podcasts, it is a completely closed ecosystem

01:11:45 ◼   ► that simply uses your RSS feed as input,

01:11:47 ◼   ► but then copies over your audio, re-hosts it,

01:11:50 ◼   ► has everybody just participate within that system,

01:11:53 ◼   ► and it's more like leeching off of the open world,

01:11:57 ◼   ► rather than what Apple does,

01:11:58 ◼   ► which is really participating in it,

01:11:59 ◼   ► and then kind of handing you off to it.

01:12:01 ◼   ► - The other minor difference that I would add

01:12:03 ◼   ► is that it's too late for iTunes.

01:12:04 ◼   ► iTunes, it is a problem that everything

01:12:06 ◼   ► is so centralized in iTunes.

01:12:08 ◼   ► I mean, it's a benefit, obviously,

01:12:09 ◼   ► that that's a place where you go to find your podcast,

01:12:11 ◼   ► but it's also a problem, but it's way too late.

01:12:12 ◼   ► Like, by the time we got into it, iTunes was already there.

01:12:15 ◼   ► So it is more useful in general to complain

01:12:18 ◼   ► about the up and comers to say,

01:12:19 ◼   ► you new thing that is coming that seems to be worse

01:12:22 ◼   ► in all the ways that Marco just described,

01:12:23 ◼   ► stop doing that, go away.

01:12:26 ◼   ► Whereas by the time we came on the scenes,

01:12:27 ◼   ► iTunes was already the winner of where you find podcasts

01:12:31 ◼   ► if you are a Mac user.

01:12:32 ◼   ► - Well also, the iTunes as a directory,

01:12:36 ◼   ► it's actually really nice to have

01:12:38 ◼   ► a human monitored directory in podcasting.

01:12:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, now I said it's a benefit,

01:12:42 ◼   ► but it's also not great that one company controls that.

01:12:47 ◼   ► 'Cause again, if Apple decides they don't care,

01:12:48 ◼   ► then we are left to the wolves,

01:12:50 ◼   ► the wolves being Google Play and Stitcher.

01:12:53 ◼   ► - Well, fortunately I built up this little thing

01:12:54 ◼   ► on the side that has its own directory

01:12:55 ◼   ► that kind of, as an insurance policy against that.

01:12:59 ◼   ► - A friend of the show, Ryan Jones,

01:13:00 ◼   ► who you heard us talk about earlier today.

01:13:03 ◼   ► - Author of Weather Line, great weather app.

01:13:05 ◼   ► My favorite weather app.

01:13:06 ◼   ► - It's been five years since Steve Jobs died.

01:13:09 ◼   ► How was Apple doing relative to your expectations

01:13:11 ◼   ► shortly after his death?

01:13:12 ◼   ► - This is the big challenge, guys.

01:13:13 ◼   ► This is the big challenge.

01:13:14 ◼   ► Get ready.

01:13:15 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:13:16 ◼   ► - So, despite the fact that we've been complaining

01:13:19 ◼   ► earlier this episode, I think that all things being equal,

01:13:24 ◼   ► this is at least meeting my expectations, if not exceeding.

01:13:29 ◼   ► I think Apple has its problems, but it's doing well,

01:13:32 ◼   ► and I'm okay with this.

01:13:34 ◼   ► - Good job, Casey.

01:13:35 ◼   ► You're up, Marco.

01:13:35 ◼   ► - All right.

01:13:36 ◼   ► - I think somewhere between healthy and Steve Ballmer.

01:13:39 ◼   ► - Wow, that's a big range.

01:13:42 ◼   ► - Can you nail that in where between?

01:13:43 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:13:44 ◼   ► - Maybe like a third of the way away from Steve Ballmer.

01:13:48 ◼   ► So like closer to that than healthy,

01:13:50 ◼   ► but not like right on top of that.

01:13:52 ◼   ► And what I mean by that, you know,

01:13:53 ◼   ► Steve Ballmer was able to continue Microsoft

01:13:56 ◼   ► into very profitable times.

01:13:58 ◼   ► He was a very good businessman to keep things going.

01:14:01 ◼   ► But he was clearly not able to identify

01:14:05 ◼   ► future product direction that needed to happen

01:14:08 ◼   ► and turn the company into that.

01:14:11 ◼   ► I think Tim Cook has much of the same issue.

01:14:14 ◼   ► Not as badly, I think Tim Cook is a much better leader

01:14:17 ◼   ► than Steve Ballmer, especially in lots of ways,

01:14:20 ◼   ► but especially in product direction.

01:14:23 ◼   ► But I still think he has that problem.

01:14:25 ◼   ► And I still think that when the next big things come,

01:14:28 ◼   ► Apple will miss them.

01:14:30 ◼   ► And it's just a matter of time before

01:14:31 ◼   ► that's a big problem for them.

01:14:33 ◼   ► - Jon?

01:14:34 ◼   ► - So I think they're, I'm gonna say they are falling

01:14:38 ◼   ► slightly short of my expectations.

01:14:40 ◼   ► I'm mostly meeting them.

01:14:41 ◼   ► Like, if you had said, "What do you think Apple's gonna be like?"

01:14:43 ◼   ► I would have described a scenario very similar to where we are now, with the exception that

01:14:46 ◼   ► I would have said that at least one of the few things that Apple would try would hit

01:14:50 ◼   ► stronger than it has, whether it's the watch or car or whatever.

01:14:53 ◼   ► So I think they're slightly under, but not by much.

01:14:56 ◼   ► In other words, I'm not shocked about where they are.

01:14:58 ◼   ► I think that's a good way of looking at it.

01:15:00 ◼   ► Ryan continues, "Of the necessary apps, podcast player, notes, Twitter, photos, mail, et cetera,

01:15:05 ◼   ► which are you least satisfied with?

01:15:07 ◼   ► In other words, what app that you use every day,

01:15:08 ◼   ► because it's the best available, do you still not love?

01:15:11 ◼   ► I'll start in, and I don't know if he intended

01:15:14 ◼   ► to limit this to iOS or not.

01:15:16 ◼   ► I will give two answers very quickly.

01:15:18 ◼   ► Number one, Overcast for the Mac.

01:15:21 ◼   ► Number two, Slack. (laughing)

01:15:23 ◼   ► Slack is a dumpster fire on the Mac, and I hate it,

01:15:27 ◼   ► but it's the best option available.

01:15:29 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm gonna go Photos.

01:15:31 ◼   ► Photos is an app that, like, I use it constantly.

01:15:34 ◼   ► It is a big part of my life.

01:15:36 ◼   ► both on iOS and the Mac, the iOS is mostly capture,

01:15:39 ◼   ► the Mac is mostly curation of the collection,

01:15:42 ◼   ► editing, importing from cameras,

01:15:43 ◼   ► and then picking through and doing minor edits.

01:15:46 ◼   ► The iCloud Photo Library sync system is great.

01:15:50 ◼   ► I have never had problems with it.

01:15:51 ◼   ► It is wonderfully convenient.

01:15:53 ◼   ► It works quickly and reliably

01:15:55 ◼   ► the vast majority of the time for me.

01:15:57 ◼   ► So the sync system is great.

01:15:58 ◼   ► However, the Photos app, especially on the Mac,

01:16:01 ◼   ► is very frustrating for me to use to do anything,

01:16:06 ◼   ► beyond getting the photo.

01:16:07 ◼   ► Like, it's nice that it syncs, that's wonderful.

01:16:10 ◼   ► But then once I wanna do anything with the pictures,

01:16:12 ◼   ► whether it's as simple as like, you know,

01:16:14 ◼   ► when I took 50 photos during this event

01:16:17 ◼   ► and I wanna narrow it down to 10,

01:16:19 ◼   ► like photos on the Mac is just the worst

01:16:21 ◼   ► in the world for that.

01:16:22 ◼   ► Like, it is so clunky, it is so like unnecessarily clunky.

01:16:26 ◼   ► Even doing basic editing operations,

01:16:28 ◼   ► you have to wait and sit through all these animations

01:16:29 ◼   ► and modes, switches and everything.

01:16:32 ◼   ► It basically seems like it's fighting me doing anything,

01:16:36 ◼   ► even the most basic operations that everybody

01:16:38 ◼   ► would want to do with their photo app.

01:16:40 ◼   ► But I do love the syncing so much that I tolerate that,

01:16:44 ◼   ► but I do wish the app was better, especially on the Mac.

01:16:47 ◼   ► - John?

01:16:47 ◼   ► - I thought the last question was the challenge

01:16:49 ◼   ► to try to simply say how you think Apple's doing

01:16:51 ◼   ► five years after Steve Jobs is gone,

01:16:53 ◼   ► but instead, Marco goes for 10 minutes on the Photos app.

01:16:56 ◼   ► - It's not 10 minutes.

01:16:57 ◼   ► (John laughs)

01:16:58 ◼   ► - It was like two.

01:16:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I would basically agree with him.

01:17:01 ◼   ► I mean, I don't love photos, I love some parts of it,

01:17:05 ◼   ► everything I agree with everything Marco said about dealing with the app it could

01:17:08 ◼   ► be better but the other contender that I mean and I also kind of agree with Casey

01:17:13 ◼   ► about slack but I kind of do love slack despite all its grossness like eating a

01:17:19 ◼   ► White Castle yeah the other contender though is a another situation where I'm

01:17:23 ◼   ► being left behind for explicable reasons this this time you know I know I am is

01:17:28 ◼   ► my favorite Twitter client on the Mac hasn't been updated in forever because

01:17:33 ◼   ► it's not worthwhile for the developer to update this, but it is the only Mac

01:17:38 ◼   ► Twitter app that I like, and it's frustrating to me that it doesn't have

01:17:40 ◼   ► so many features and it's such a big mess because it just hasn't been updated.

01:17:45 ◼   ► And I know why, and I just sit here clinging to it and using it until it

01:17:48 ◼   ► doesn't launch anymore and then I'll be sad. And which app is that? Because

01:17:51 ◼   ► somebody will ask. That's Twitter-ific for the Mac, which I still really do

01:17:54 ◼   ► like, but it is so far behind the state of the Twitter art at this point that I

01:17:58 ◼   ► can't recommend other people use it. Anonymous asks, "Apple's priorities are

01:18:03 ◼   ► clearly iPhone, then watch, then Mac, then iPad. If you were Tim, how would you rank

01:18:09 ◼   ► them?" Well, if I were Tim, I would put Mac first, but that's not the way this works.

01:18:13 ◼   ► I think the most reasonable approach is iPhone, then iPad, then watch, then Mac. And

01:18:20 ◼   ► that doesn't please me to say that. I don't want it to be that way, but I think

01:18:25 ◼   ► I think that's the way that makes the most sense.

01:18:26 ◼   ► Marco?

01:18:28 ◼   ► - I would probably try to restructure the company

01:18:31 ◼   ► and the management incentives such that

01:18:33 ◼   ► it was not necessary to rank them like this.

01:18:35 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:18:36 ◼   ► - That's such a non-answer.

01:18:37 ◼   ► - I don't think that's really possible

01:18:39 ◼   ► unless you break it off into subsidiaries that are,

01:18:42 ◼   ► I don't know, I think that's dodging.

01:18:44 ◼   ► I think they should still--

01:18:45 ◼   ► - Okay, if I have to rank them,

01:18:47 ◼   ► it's, I hate, anyway, if I had to rank them,

01:18:51 ◼   ► iPhone would still be first.

01:18:52 ◼   ► I would put Mac second, iPad third, and watch fourth,

01:18:56 ◼   ► because that's basically the order in which,

01:18:59 ◼   ► I think it's the order of their importance,

01:19:01 ◼   ► along with the order in which they,

01:19:04 ◼   ► the amount of attention they need, basically.

01:19:06 ◼   ► Like, the watch is brand new and fairly young,

01:19:09 ◼   ► but it doesn't actually do that much.

01:19:12 ◼   ► It's a fairly simple product.

01:19:14 ◼   ► I don't think it needs a ton of updating, you know?

01:19:16 ◼   ► Especially like, with 3.0 was pretty good.

01:19:19 ◼   ► They've gotten to a good spot now.

01:19:21 ◼   ► it's not really dying for tons of updates.

01:19:24 ◼   ► The iPad is, you know, the iPad gets a lot of stuff for free

01:19:28 ◼   ► which just advances on the iPhone,

01:19:30 ◼   ► so it doesn't need a lot of its own attention.

01:19:31 ◼   ► It doesn't also just a file of its own attention

01:19:33 ◼   ► because the sales aren't that good.

01:19:34 ◼   ► Whereas the Mac, the reason I put it second to the iPhone

01:19:38 ◼   ► is not only obviously do I love it,

01:19:40 ◼   ► but also I think the Mac needs more attention

01:19:44 ◼   ► and has more influence and, you know,

01:19:46 ◼   ► just it's more of a foundational important part

01:19:50 ◼   ► of the whole market.

01:19:51 ◼   ► All right, I would go iPhone, iPad, Mac, watch, although I think this list is not complete

01:19:58 ◼   ► and I'm not entirely sure that the order given is so clearly Apple's priorities.

01:20:02 ◼   ► And the reason I would – we all agreed on iPhone first because I think that's just

01:20:05 ◼   ► a gimme.

01:20:06 ◼   ► The reason I'm putting iPad second is because I think it has the potential – it's the

01:20:10 ◼   ► only thing in Apple's lineup that has the potential to eventually someday do all the

01:20:14 ◼   ► things that a Mac does.

01:20:15 ◼   ► And the watch is so young and so new, it should not have priority over the iPad or the Mac

01:20:19 ◼   ► or the iPhone.

01:20:20 ◼   ► - Alright, yeah.

01:20:21 ◼   ► Also, like, you know, the Apple TV

01:20:23 ◼   ► is missing from this list.

01:20:25 ◼   ► Like, there are some things Apple does that aren't here.

01:20:28 ◼   ► - That's what I'm saying, it's not complete.

01:20:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I would also say, like, the Apple TV,

01:20:32 ◼   ► similar to the watch in that I'm not sure

01:20:35 ◼   ► it justifies a lot of continuous investment

01:20:38 ◼   ► because the reason why the Apple TV and the watch

01:20:42 ◼   ► and the iPad, actually, what holds these things back

01:20:46 ◼   ► is not just, like, software features or hardware updates.

01:20:49 ◼   ► It's like ecosystem limitations around them

01:20:52 ◼   ► that just make it very difficult for them

01:20:54 ◼   ► to meaningfully progress.

01:20:56 ◼   ► - Dan Caspi asks, "Do all of your wives

01:21:00 ◼   ► "listen to the episodes?

01:21:01 ◼   ► "Do they find them interesting?"

01:21:03 ◼   ► Erin does not.

01:21:04 ◼   ► She does listen to analog, she does not listen to ATP.

01:21:06 ◼   ► Marco.

01:21:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, Tiff listens to ATP.

01:21:10 ◼   ► She does not listen to Under the Radar,

01:21:14 ◼   ► and she's in Top Four.

01:21:15 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:21:16 ◼   ► - Jon.

01:21:17 ◼   ► - Yes, my wife listens to ATP.

01:21:19 ◼   ► I don't think she finds it interesting

01:21:21 ◼   ► in terms of the subject matter.

01:21:22 ◼   ► I think the only reason she finds it interesting

01:21:24 ◼   ► is because her husband is on the show

01:21:26 ◼   ► and she wants to hear if we say anything about her.

01:21:29 ◼   ► - Thanks.

01:21:30 ◼   ► - Hi, Tina.

01:21:31 ◼   ► Have you ever rejected an ad?

01:21:32 ◼   ► This is still from Dan Caspi.

01:21:34 ◼   ► Yes, we have.

01:21:35 ◼   ► I can't think of any examples

01:21:36 ◼   ► and it's probably not mature of us to cite them anyway,

01:21:38 ◼   ► but yes, we have absolutely--

01:21:39 ◼   ► - Oh, I can think of tons.

01:21:40 ◼   ► I mean, yes, we reject ads frequently

01:21:45 ◼   ► and not like every day,

01:21:46 ◼   ► but maybe every month or two we will turn down a sponsor

01:21:48 ◼   ► or we will even decide to stop working with one

01:21:51 ◼   ► that we have worked with before.

01:21:53 ◼   ► There are lots of reasons for this.

01:21:54 ◼   ► Obviously there's a lot of stuff that just

01:21:56 ◼   ► we don't think would be nice to advertise here

01:21:59 ◼   ► or would not fit the show well.

01:22:01 ◼   ► Sometimes we will drop a sponsor that we've had

01:22:03 ◼   ► if we get reports from people that their product

01:22:06 ◼   ► isn't as good as we thought it was.

01:22:08 ◼   ► We also strategically, we've tried to reduce

01:22:12 ◼   ► the amount of clothing companies and stuff like that

01:22:15 ◼   ► that advertise with us and increase more of like

01:22:17 ◼   ► the tech relevant stuff, there's tons of sponsors out there

01:22:21 ◼   ► that wanna sell you like a shirt subscription.

01:22:24 ◼   ► And that's fine, I mean look, last episode we had

01:22:26 ◼   ► a socks subscription, it was pretty fun,

01:22:28 ◼   ► it was a great spot, but I don't want the advertisers

01:22:31 ◼   ► to all be that kind of stuff because we're still

01:22:33 ◼   ► a tech show, so I wanna have some kind of focus

01:22:35 ◼   ► to make most of the ads tech related.

01:22:37 ◼   ► - All right, let's take a break and speaking of sponsors,

01:22:40 ◼   ► let's talk about one of the ones that is awesome.

01:22:42 ◼   ► - It's a shirt subscription.

01:22:44 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:22:45 ◼   ► No, it's a mattress.

01:22:46 ◼   ► - That'd be great.

01:22:47 ◼   ► That'd be so great though.

01:22:48 ◼   ► - Mattresses are totally tech related.

01:22:51 ◼   ► Everybody sleeps.

01:22:52 ◼   ► Sometimes everybody's smart.

01:22:54 ◼   ► - It's a good sponsor too.

01:22:55 ◼   ► I mean that's why what makes it a hard decision

01:22:57 ◼   ► is like a lot of these are great products.

01:22:59 ◼   ► So we usually won't drop them just for that.

01:23:02 ◼   ► But one thing that bugs me, just very quickly,

01:23:05 ◼   ► one thing that really bugs me is things

01:23:07 ◼   ► that are subscriptions that really don't need to be

01:23:09 ◼   ► that you're probably not going to benefit

01:23:11 ◼   ► from them being subscriptions.

01:23:12 ◼   ► So I don't mind a one pair of socks a month kind of thing,

01:23:16 ◼   ► 'cause you're gonna use socks, that's cool.

01:23:19 ◼   ► What I don't like are things that are like bags of snacks.

01:23:22 ◼   ► You pay 40 bucks a month and get some bags

01:23:25 ◼   ► of snacks delivered.

01:23:26 ◼   ► It's like that just feels like it shouldn't be

01:23:29 ◼   ► a subscription, you know?

01:23:30 ◼   ► Or there's one that you can get dog toys delivered

01:23:34 ◼   ► for 30 bucks a month.

01:23:35 ◼   ► It's like I buy toys for my dog every time

01:23:38 ◼   ► with the dog store.

01:23:39 ◼   ► I would never reach 30 bucks a month worth

01:23:41 ◼   ► of total investment in that.

01:23:43 ◼   ► Like it's crazy.

01:23:45 ◼   ► But yeah, so like certain things I will outright reject

01:23:48 ◼   ► just because it's like I think that's BS

01:23:50 ◼   ► to be a subscription.

01:23:52 ◼   ► But yeah, so anyway.

01:23:54 ◼   ► We are sponsored this week by Casper,

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01:24:27 ◼   ► The mattress industry, let's face it,

01:24:28 ◼   ► I mean, if you're going to a mattress store,

01:24:30 ◼   ► you gotta weirdly walk around

01:24:32 ◼   ► while there's some salesman hovering over you.

01:24:34 ◼   ► Try to lie down on a mattress for three seconds

01:24:36 ◼   ► and be like, okay, I guess I wanna spend

01:24:37 ◼   ► and a third of my life on this,

01:24:39 ◼   ► that's not a great way to buy a mattress

01:24:40 ◼   ► and the prices are really, really high

01:24:43 ◼   ► and it's high pressure sales

01:24:44 ◼   ► 'cause they're usually commission driven.

01:24:46 ◼   ► It's not a great system for consumers.

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01:24:50 ◼   ► The mattress industry,

01:24:51 ◼   ► they don't even know what to do about Casper.

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01:24:55 ◼   ► Casper is revolutionizing the industry.

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01:25:06 ◼   ► It is an amazing combination of springy latex foam

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01:25:18 ◼   ► It doesn't surround you with heat

01:25:21 ◼   ► and constantly too much heat,

01:25:23 ◼   ► like the way memory foam can for a lot of people.

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01:25:31 ◼   ► And normally, a really nice mattress,

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01:25:35 ◼   ► Casper, $500 for a twin, 600 for a twin XL,

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01:26:21 ◼   ► they love it and they keep it and it's awesome.

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01:26:50 ◼   ► Thank you very much to Casper for sponsoring our show.

01:26:52 ◼   ► - Kyle Genaux asks, "I was wondering if there's been

01:26:56 ◼   ► "any new tool, software, or hardware

01:26:58 ◼   ► "that you've started using in 2016 at work or at home

01:27:01 ◼   ► "that you think deserves a shout-out

01:27:02 ◼   ► "or additional recognition?"

01:27:05 ◼   ► This is a fantastic question

01:27:07 ◼   ► to which I can't think of any good answer,

01:27:10 ◼   ► and that's unfortunate.

01:27:11 ◼   ► - That's the system working as designed,

01:27:13 ◼   ► because if you can't think of it in a couple seconds,

01:27:15 ◼   ► you have to pass.

01:27:16 ◼   ► - Yep, that's a pass.

01:27:17 ◼   ► - I'm gonna go with Git submodules,

01:27:20 ◼   ► and especially using them with--

01:27:21 ◼   ► - Really?

01:27:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly, it's crazy.

01:27:24 ◼   ► This is not the holiday party talking.

01:27:25 ◼   ► This is real.

01:27:26 ◼   ► And using them in particular

01:27:28 ◼   ► with the Git Tower app for the Mac.

01:27:30 ◼   ► I think it's just called Tower now,

01:27:31 ◼   ► the Tower app for the Mac.

01:27:32 ◼   ► - Oh, that is fantastic.

01:27:34 ◼   ► I love Tower.

01:27:35 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I use, I mean, I have tried many things

01:27:39 ◼   ► over the years to basically try to solve,

01:27:42 ◼   ► like, how do I import other libraries,

01:27:44 ◼   ► either written by myself or like open source projects,

01:27:47 ◼   ► into, you know, how do I import shared code

01:27:49 ◼   ► into my apps and manage that?

01:27:50 ◼   ► And there's things like CocoaPods

01:27:52 ◼   ► and that kind of dependency manager,

01:27:54 ◼   ► and there's also obviously methods like

01:27:55 ◼   ► just copy the directory over and stick it in your project.

01:27:58 ◼   ► and there's Git subtrees and submodules.

01:28:01 ◼   ► I have no idea why those are two different things.

01:28:04 ◼   ► Please don't write into emailing to explain it,

01:28:06 ◼   ► I don't care, but thank you anyway.

01:28:08 ◼   ► But I have recently settled on submodules,

01:28:12 ◼   ► especially as managed by Git Tower,

01:28:15 ◼   ► this wonderful Mac app that I love so much,

01:28:17 ◼   ► which is just called Tower, oops.

01:28:19 ◼   ► And it is finally a system that I'm sticking with

01:28:23 ◼   ► and that I'm very happy with

01:28:24 ◼   ► and I've stuck with it now for a while.

01:28:26 ◼   ► I think it's been at least six months,

01:28:27 ◼   ► which is probably the longest

01:28:28 ◼   ► one of these systems and not hated it.

01:28:31 ◼   ► It's great, I have lots of my own shared libraries in here,

01:28:34 ◼   ► it's wonderful, and it's overall, while it is not perfect,

01:28:37 ◼   ► and while the raw Git way to do submodules

01:28:39 ◼   ► is comically obtuse, just like most of Git,

01:28:43 ◼   ► when you manage it with a GUI tool, it's not too bad,

01:28:46 ◼   ► and it is by far the lowest hassle and least fragile

01:28:50 ◼   ► of these systems that I've ever used.

01:28:53 ◼   ► - That makes me think I have been fighting CocoaPods

01:28:57 ◼   ► left and right at work lately.

01:28:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, you don't need to, just stop.

01:29:01 ◼   ► I'm telling you, it's so much better this way.

01:29:03 ◼   ► - I'm not convinced sub-modules is the right answer.

01:29:05 ◼   ► However, I'm really interested in Punic,

01:29:09 ◼   ► which is a clean room re-implementation of Carthage

01:29:12 ◼   ► done by Shua on Twitter.

01:29:15 ◼   ► God, I forgot his name off the top of my head, holy crap.

01:29:17 ◼   ► - What a pleasant person.

01:29:19 ◼   ► - Well, there's that.

01:29:20 ◼   ► But anyway, I've understood that Punic is very good

01:29:23 ◼   ► and I'd love to try it.

01:29:25 ◼   ► And so I can't say that that is definitely my answer.

01:29:27 ◼   ► Jonathan White, that's right.

01:29:29 ◼   ► Thank you, Sam the Geek.

01:29:30 ◼   ► Anyway, I would love to give Punic a shot though.

01:29:33 ◼   ► John.

01:29:34 ◼   ► - I mostly have to take a pass on this,

01:29:36 ◼   ► but when I read the question,

01:29:37 ◼   ► I realized in the letter of the question,

01:29:39 ◼   ► I do have a thing,

01:29:40 ◼   ► a new tool software hardware that you started using in 2016

01:29:44 ◼   ► that you think deserve a shout out.

01:29:45 ◼   ► I think the much faster touch ID

01:29:47 ◼   ► that the entire world has been using

01:29:49 ◼   ► for a year and a half is awesome.

01:29:51 ◼   ► And I love the fact that my iPhone 7 unlocks so quickly.

01:29:54 ◼   ► it's like magic is really, it is the,

01:29:56 ◼   ► I think it's the most significant change on the iPhone 7

01:29:59 ◼   ► that I've appreciated, maybe second to the speed.

01:30:02 ◼   ► - Fair enough. - Of like, you know,

01:30:03 ◼   ► in general.

01:30:05 ◼   ► - Chris Shamlu asks for Casey and Jon,

01:30:07 ◼   ► any desire to become independent?

01:30:08 ◼   ► Desired, yes.

01:30:10 ◼   ► Strength of soul, strength of character, probably not.

01:30:16 ◼   ► I recognize that having a jobby job

01:30:21 ◼   ► is not really any more stable than having a completely independent lifestyle, but it

01:30:28 ◼   ► feels more stable and has health insurance. And so right now I really like my job. I've

01:30:35 ◼   ► been there since February. I really, really like it and I don't plan to leave, but we'll

01:30:39 ◼   ► see what happens. John?

01:30:40 ◼   ► John: May I answer a similar? Desire, yes, but a much larger helping of fear.

01:30:45 ◼   ► Steven: Exactly. For Marco, still from Chris. Any desire to start a company, something with

01:30:50 ◼   ► with more than three or four employees?

01:30:52 ◼   ► - Nope, not even a little.

01:30:54 ◼   ► I am terrible at managing people.

01:30:56 ◼   ► I don't enjoy managing people.

01:30:58 ◼   ► I really don't enjoy the idea of having to manage investors,

01:31:01 ◼   ► which that would probably require.

01:31:04 ◼   ► And so, nope, I'm very happy limiting myself

01:31:07 ◼   ► to just what I can do on my own.

01:31:10 ◼   ► - Fair enough.

01:31:11 ◼   ► For all of us, who would win a 100 meter sprint?

01:31:16 ◼   ► Maybe me, but quite possibly Jon.

01:31:20 ◼   ► And in a 5K race, I have no idea.

01:31:22 ◼   ► You guys?

01:31:23 ◼   ► - The 100 meter, I don't know.

01:31:26 ◼   ► I'm not good at sprinting,

01:31:28 ◼   ► so I'd probably have to give that one to Casey.

01:31:30 ◼   ► 5K, I would win.

01:31:32 ◼   ► - I think that's probably fair.

01:31:33 ◼   ► Why are 3D movies terrible?

01:31:35 ◼   ► Because it's just a gimmick.

01:31:37 ◼   ► Marco, any thoughts?

01:31:39 ◼   ► - I have never seen one, so I can't answer.

01:31:41 ◼   ► - Oh, you're better off that way.

01:31:43 ◼   ► - That's the best Marco answer ever.

01:31:45 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:31:46 ◼   ► - Are you surprised?

01:31:47 ◼   ► Is it really that much of a surprise?

01:31:49 ◼   ► - Why are talkies terrible?

01:31:50 ◼   ► I have never said that.

01:31:51 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:31:53 ◼   ► - John.

01:31:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can tell you why they're terrible.

01:31:54 ◼   ► - Tell us.

01:31:55 ◼   ► - I mean, they're not terrible, whatever.

01:31:58 ◼   ► The problem with 3D movies is

01:32:01 ◼   ► when we see the world with our two eyeballs,

01:32:03 ◼   ► we can choose what to focus on.

01:32:05 ◼   ► 3D movies, you can't do that.

01:32:07 ◼   ► 3D movies choose what to focus on for you.

01:32:09 ◼   ► So they have the 3D effect where it seems like

01:32:11 ◼   ► things are closer to you and farther away,

01:32:13 ◼   ► but if you decide to look at the background,

01:32:14 ◼   ► it doesn't suddenly come into focus.

01:32:16 ◼   ► And so it's not like the real world we experience,

01:32:18 ◼   ► but it's also not a flat picture like a regular movie.

01:32:21 ◼   ► And so it's this uncomfortable middle ground

01:32:23 ◼   ► that I personally find terrible.

01:32:26 ◼   ► - That is an annoyingly good answer.

01:32:28 ◼   ► Dream five car garage.

01:32:31 ◼   ► God, I wish I had looked at this before the show.

01:32:34 ◼   ► - Parentheses, $1 million budget.

01:32:37 ◼   ► I'm like, well, which is it?

01:32:38 ◼   ► - I think it's, let's say, the best five cars you can buy

01:32:42 ◼   ► for a million or less.

01:32:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, you gotta just rattle them off.

01:32:44 ◼   ► It's just lightning round, come on.

01:32:46 ◼   ► All right, so Aston Martin DBS, that's what,

01:32:49 ◼   ► like a quarter million, 200,000?

01:32:52 ◼   ► Jeep Wrangler.

01:32:53 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:32:56 ◼   ► No, I'm serious, I'm really serious.

01:32:57 ◼   ► They're implicitly fine.

01:32:58 ◼   ► - Top list, you'll have your list, Martin.

01:33:00 ◼   ► - So Aston Martin DBS Jeep Wrangler,

01:33:02 ◼   ► BMW M3,

01:33:07 ◼   ► Porsche Cayenne Turbo, that's four cars.

01:33:12 ◼   ► - I think you're over.

01:33:13 ◼   ► You know how you're over. - Am I?

01:33:14 ◼   ► - Over budget, real roughly. - No way.

01:33:15 ◼   ► No way.

01:33:16 ◼   ► I would say stay within budget and just stop short when you're done with, when you use

01:33:20 ◼   ► it.

01:33:21 ◼   ► No way.

01:33:22 ◼   ► The DBS is like, let's call it 200.

01:33:23 ◼   ► The client turbo is another.

01:33:24 ◼   ► No, 200?

01:33:25 ◼   ► What are you, are you kidding?

01:33:26 ◼   ► I think you need to price that out.

01:33:27 ◼   ► Ugh.

01:33:28 ◼   ► All right, fine.

01:33:29 ◼   ► I'll just call.

01:33:30 ◼   ► The Porsche, the Porsche probably has like 90K in options alone.

01:33:32 ◼   ► That's true.

01:33:33 ◼   ► All right, well, I'll just stop at four then.

01:33:36 ◼   ► All right, let's go to Jon since I feel like I've been going to Marco first for a lot.

01:33:39 ◼   ► So Jon, let's go to you next.

01:33:41 ◼   ► I'm gonna say Ferrari 488, Ferrari 458.

01:33:46 ◼   ► There's a surprise.

01:33:48 ◼   ► Used BMW M3, the E46 generation, the one that I like.

01:33:55 ◼   ► Oh, slow down, why?

01:33:56 ◼   ► Because that's the M3 that I like. I like how it looks. I don't like how the new ones look, but I want that type of car.

01:34:03 ◼   ► And Mercedes S-Class.

01:34:05 ◼   ► Really? Okay, Marco?

01:34:07 ◼   ► - I go Tesla 100D, if that doesn't exist yet, P100D.

01:34:11 ◼   ► Number two would be Aston Martin,

01:34:15 ◼   ► whatever Aston Martin is cool and sexy,

01:34:16 ◼   ► I don't keep track of which ones they are.

01:34:18 ◼   ► It's the DS, DS9, DB10.

01:34:20 ◼   ► - That one's the same anyway, just one is fine.

01:34:22 ◼   ► - The two door one, not the crazy four door abomination.

01:34:24 ◼   ► So yeah, one of those. - Of course, of course.

01:34:26 ◼   ► - And some kind of like small, simple,

01:34:29 ◼   ► stick shift two door car, whether it's a Cayenne,

01:34:33 ◼   ► I mean sorry, whether it's a Cayman, sorry, oh my god.

01:34:36 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:34:37 ◼   ► Major apologies.

01:34:39 ◼   ► Whether that's a Cayman or an M2,

01:34:41 ◼   ► it'd probably be one of those.

01:34:43 ◼   ► And then the other two spots, I would just leave,

01:34:46 ◼   ► like I'd fill spots one, three, and five,

01:34:48 ◼   ► and just leave spots two and four empty

01:34:50 ◼   ► to just have room, 'cause I love a garage

01:34:52 ◼   ► with some space to walk around the cars,

01:34:54 ◼   ► 'cause I don't have that.

01:34:55 ◼   ► And I've only ever had very crowded garages in my life,

01:34:58 ◼   ► so like to have space would be an amazing luxury.

01:35:01 ◼   ► - You don't know crowded garages.

01:35:03 ◼   ► You do not know. - Truth be told,

01:35:04 ◼   ► I do not have a cavernous garage, but both Marco and John have tiny garages.

01:35:10 ◼   ► Mine is by far the smallest.

01:35:11 ◼   ► Also, I want to change my answer.

01:35:12 ◼   ► I forgot the Model S. I would throw one in there if I have budget left.

01:35:15 ◼   ► Yeah, that's a good call.

01:35:16 ◼   ► That's a good call.

01:35:17 ◼   ► Prodens Tatev says, "What is the best TV show/movie podcast of 2016?"

01:35:22 ◼   ► I feel like I should have an answer for this.

01:35:24 ◼   ► It's ours.

01:35:25 ◼   ► Come on.

01:35:26 ◼   ► Yeah, totally.

01:35:27 ◼   ► Actually, you know what?

01:35:28 ◼   ► I think it was in 2016 that I discovered 99% Invisible, which I know everyone else on the

01:35:32 ◼   ► planet has been listening to for years.

01:35:34 ◼   ► But I really love 99% Invisible and I just discovered it this year, so that'll be my

01:35:38 ◼   ► answer.

01:35:39 ◼   ► Jon.

01:35:40 ◼   ► I'm excited for you to go to Marco.

01:35:42 ◼   ► Marco hasn't seen any TV shows, movies, or podcasts in 2016.

01:35:45 ◼   ► I saw Star Wars.

01:35:47 ◼   ► And the new, I saw Dory, the Finding Dory thing with my kid.

01:35:51 ◼   ► I wouldn't put it as the best.

01:35:52 ◼   ► I'm not going to do best one of each because that'll turn into an uncomfortable episode.

01:35:56 ◼   ► I'm just going to say best TV show, my memory is so short so I could be forgetting something

01:36:00 ◼   ► for it, but Westworld is the most recent in my mind.

01:36:03 ◼   ► I think it's my favorite TV show of this year,

01:36:06 ◼   ► and podcasts, who knows, and movie, who knows.

01:36:08 ◼   ► - Marco.

01:36:11 ◼   ► - I think my favorite podcast of the year might be Upgrade.

01:36:16 ◼   ► It's the show with Jason Snell and Mike Hurley,

01:36:20 ◼   ► and it's basically like a tech commentary show

01:36:23 ◼   ► not too different from this.

01:36:24 ◼   ► They just do a really, really good job of it.

01:36:27 ◼   ► So I'm a big fan of that overall,

01:36:28 ◼   ► and I would say kind of my favorite new podcast recently,

01:36:32 ◼   ► even though that wasn't part of the question,

01:36:33 ◼   ► is Due by Friday by Merlin Mann,

01:36:36 ◼   ► Max Temkin and Alex Cox.

01:36:37 ◼   ► It is so incredibly funny.

01:36:39 ◼   ► It's pretty new still.

01:36:40 ◼   ► They're only like four or five episodes in,

01:36:42 ◼   ► but my God, this is funny.

01:36:43 ◼   ► It's just amazing.

01:36:45 ◼   ► So that is a perfect show.

01:36:47 ◼   ► - All right, still from Prodan.

01:36:49 ◼   ► How do you usually pick gifts for your loved ones?

01:36:51 ◼   ► Are you good gift givers?

01:36:52 ◼   ► I feel like every third or fourth year I do really well

01:36:57 ◼   ► and the rest of the time I'm a friggin' disaster.