202: Something Has Gone Wrong


00:00:00   Not only did we just talk last night because we're recording this episode a week ahead of time for the holiday break

00:00:05   It was barely yesterday. Not only that but I've heard you guys in my headphones all day

00:00:09   Since I was editing last night's show fast enough so I can get it published today because I'm leaving town tomorrow, right?

00:00:15   So yeah, that was so I basically it's like I'm just living with you now, which is kind of cool

00:00:20   You're my friend. So it works out. Well, but yeah, I certainly have heard a lot of you in the last 24

00:00:25   I'm so sorry.

00:00:30   John Craig, Syracuse, I have received 158 friggin' emails today thanks to your tweet.

00:00:37   Yeah, thanks a lot, John.

00:00:38   First of all, I told you both I was going to do this.

00:00:40   And second, you both said, "Yeah, that's a good idea."

00:00:42   But you never said that you were going to solicit this feedback via friggin' email.

00:00:45   I was hoping it would be via Twitter.

00:00:47   Well, so here, I told you I was going to solicit the feedback.

00:00:50   Mark, I was like, "Oh, we can do it five minutes before," but I know you couldn't do it five

00:00:53   minutes before.

00:00:54   We've got to collect this stuff.

00:00:55   do was use this piece of software called Backchanel. It's like backchan.nl, which I thought was

00:01:01   like a domain, and I'll just go to backchan.nl and just use it, right? Like, same way you

00:01:05   use like SurveyMonkey or the million other places where you can go to do some, you know,

00:01:10   single purpose thing with a web app, or I would just point people to a weird URL and

00:01:14   say, "Hey, go here and enter your questions," and it lets people vote the questions up,

00:01:17   you know what I mean? Like...

00:01:18   Wait, wait, what is this URL? B-A-C-K-C-H-A-N dot n-l?

00:01:24   Dot n-l, but it's not a URL. Like, I thought it was a URL because I misremembering.

00:01:27   Oh, I was going to say, because this doesn't work.

00:01:29   What it is actually is a software project. It's a PHP thing, I think, and there's

00:01:32   no way I was going to, like, install a PHP thing.

00:01:34   Who would?

00:01:35   Right. But anyway, what I was looking for is a simple way for people to enter questions

00:01:39   and other people to upvote them with some reasonable controls. So a Google Sheet wouldn't

00:01:44   do it because then people would just put whatever number they want in the votes column and then

00:01:47   We have to go back through the history to see who did it and it's all pointless.

00:01:50   Reddit would have worked, but we know how I feel about that.

00:01:54   And so I said, "Well, short notice.

00:01:56   I'm just going to tweet it and we'll just use the feedback form, which will provide

00:02:00   some semblance of uniformity and that we're hoping most of you will come through that

00:02:07   and that people will read all the stuff that says we're going to read your name on the

00:02:10   air and blah, blah, blah, blah."

00:02:11   And I think it worked out pretty well.

00:02:13   We'll find out how well it worked tomorrow if they followed the very important all caps

00:02:17   instruction which was today only tomorrow if we get another hundred

00:02:21   questions then you know well my bad right now go delete that tweet I'm

00:02:25   telling you there's no that's actually a good idea people will find it like in

00:02:29   three weeks and be and still be telling us things because it's a lot just saw

00:02:33   it today yeah all right go delete it that's the only thing you can do that is

00:02:38   the smartest thing Marco I think you've ever said in your entire life after

00:02:42   after I want an m5 or you should go with me to pick up my m5 those are also

00:02:47   - It's all so high on the list.

00:02:49   - Actually, Tiff just got a new car like an hour ago.

00:02:52   - Oh really?

00:02:53   - Yeah, 'cause like the lease was up,

00:02:54   and we had, we just got the same thing again, the 340 GT.

00:02:57   - Yeah, I didn't realize you had actually ordered it.

00:02:59   I remember you being in conversation with the dealer,

00:03:01   but I didn't know you had pulled the trigger.

00:03:03   - The best thing about this,

00:03:04   I can finally close like four browser tabs.

00:03:06   - It's the best feeling ever, isn't it?

00:03:08   - Oh yeah.

00:03:09   - Right, John?

00:03:10   Oh boy. - Close that whole window.

00:03:11   Yeah, close the whole window with those tabs in it.

00:03:14   - Hey, in the interest of full disclosure,

00:03:16   I did go on a tacky light tour tonight.

00:03:18   I have had a holiday gathering.

00:03:20   I would not say I've had a holiday party.

00:03:22   So just letting you know.

00:03:23   - Good, I have a small holiday get together

00:03:24   on my desk as well.

00:03:25   We'll see how this goes.

00:03:27   It's from Belgium.

00:03:28   - I had a glass of water in a Dogfish Ale glass today.

00:03:32   - Oh, so you must be hammered.

00:03:34   - So we were out at a restaurant

00:03:35   and I guess all their cups were Dogfish Head Ale

00:03:37   or whatever that company is that Marco likes the beer from.

00:03:40   - Yep, Dogfish Head.

00:03:41   - Yeah, and I said,

00:03:42   "Oh, I don't know if they sponsor the place or whatever."

00:03:44   But yeah, those were their water glasses.

00:03:46   You couldn't have at least gotten a Sprite, John.

00:03:47   - And I deleted that tweet, so the world is safe.

00:03:50   - Oh, thank you.

00:03:51   I'm looking at my red badge on mail.app, 109, you damn jerk.

00:03:56   - Yeah, I gotta be honest,

00:03:58   I have read almost none of the questions

00:03:59   that came in by email, because I've had such a busy day

00:04:04   that I didn't have time to read 150 new emails

00:04:07   in addition to what I normally get.

00:04:08   - We'll get to that portion of the show eventually,

00:04:10   and I will re-explain it, or explain it, as the case may be,

00:04:14   to both of you in the audience.

00:04:16   - Let's get started.

00:04:17   So let's start with some follow-up.

00:04:18   A friend of the show, Ryan Jones,

00:04:20   has corroborated what we had theorized on the last episode.

00:04:25   He says, and I'm quoting,

00:04:26   "AirPod lightning port is exactly the same

00:04:29   "as the iPhone port.

00:04:30   "Everybody chill."

00:04:31   - Well, you know the iPhone 7 that's shown in this picture

00:04:34   comes with the big fat cable

00:04:35   that covers over the whole thing.

00:04:37   Just like we discussed last show,

00:04:38   like the fat one actually does cover it, you know?

00:04:41   For the headphones anyway,

00:04:42   I guess for the charging thing, it doesn't.

00:04:44   I think it's a little bit more noticeable on the AirPods because everything is all white

00:04:48   shiny plastic and you're plugging a white shiny plastic thing into it and then there's

00:04:51   just a little bit poking out on a regular iPhone.

00:04:53   I imagine people haven't noticed this before.

00:04:55   You know, the little edges poke out past the thing.

00:04:58   But of course, internet being what it is, this picture, which many people have posted

00:05:03   similar things, didn't stop people.

00:05:05   They said, "Well, you know what that means?

00:05:07   That means the iPhone 7 was supposed to be USB-C too," and they changed their mind.

00:05:10   So you can't stop the conspiracy theorists.

00:05:13   Anyway, it just looks like this is what lighting ports look like, people.

00:05:17   And sometimes the plastic part doesn't extend all the way to the end of the little opening.

00:05:21   Also, I'd like to acknowledge that we finished recording the last episode 26 hours ago, 25

00:05:28   hours ago, something like that.

00:05:30   And we did indeed have one piece of follow-up.

00:05:32   Amazing.

00:05:33   Well, they're fast.

00:05:34   I mean, it could have been real-time follow-up if we were a little bit, you know, this was

00:05:37   11, I guess it was 11.44 a.m. today.

00:05:40   But I'm sure somebody in the chat room said this during the thing and we missed it.

00:05:45   Indeed.

00:05:46   All right, moving on.

00:05:48   Are we going to talk?

00:05:49   I guess, Jon and Marco, you really want to talk about the Mark Gurman article, don't

00:05:53   you?

00:05:54   So do you.

00:05:55   Everybody does.

00:05:56   Who doesn't?

00:05:57   I slightly do.

00:05:58   All right, let me sit back, get comfortable.

00:05:59   Maybe invite over another party.

00:06:01   Yeah, right.

00:06:02   All right, let's get started.

00:06:05   So Mark Gurman wrote a post on Bloomberg, which is obviously where he works now.

00:06:10   It's entitled "How Apple Alienated Mac Loyalists."

00:06:13   And whether or not you agree with the premise of the article, whether or not you like the

00:06:20   article, the premise of the article is, you know, if you look at the situation here, the

00:06:25   Mac is kind of an also-ran, it's kind of a—it's the tag-along in Apple's portfolio, and it's

00:06:34   becoming more and more clear that it's of less importance to Apple than it ever has

00:06:40   been in the past.

00:06:41   And there's some interesting factoids, which I'm sure we'll get into, about why the Mac

00:06:48   does or does not matter.

00:06:50   There's some interesting facts that actually may not be accurate, as told to us by some

00:06:56   little birdies about whether or not the software teams were realigned or misaligned or just

00:07:04   generally differently aligned in the effort to make the things for the Mac better or worse.

00:07:10   It's an interesting article and it is worth reading. I'm not sure what to make of it,

00:07:16   but I'm curious to hear what the two of you have to say. So, since I've learned from the last

00:07:23   episode, let's start with Jon. Jon, what did you think about this?

00:07:27   >>

00:07:41   you can recall having read this thing a couple days ago now that was in here and that was the

00:07:45   story about how the new MacBook Pros, one of the things that Apple looked into was having

00:07:51   differently shaped batteries to basically find more places to shove battery in the thing. And

00:07:56   it doesn't mean the same as the scalped batteries because that wouldn't make sense because it's not

00:08:00   tapered, but instead of just having a couple rectangles that fit into the nice rectangle parts,

00:08:05   having more oddly shaped batteries that can fill more nooks and crannies with battery,

00:08:09   and that didn't work out for whatever reason according to this article and so they went with

00:08:14   the more boring shape battery which meant less battery which meant less battery life

00:08:18   and that's a new presentation of some new information literally everything else in this

00:08:23   article i think is just a summary and a reiteration of all of the cranky mac user stuff that has been

00:08:34   been going on on the internet and on this podcast for a long period of time, including

00:08:39   the bit that a lot of people—I think that was in this article—that a lot of people

00:08:42   are going on, like that Apple—was this this article?—that Apple doesn't have a dedicated

00:08:46   Mac OS group anymore?

00:08:47   Yeah, it says that about software at least, not about hardware.

00:08:51   Right.

00:08:52   And that's—unless I'm missing some detail that is not in this article, and again, it

00:08:56   would help if this article acknowledged the thing I'm about to say and clarified it for

00:09:00   me, but Apple Unified Software under Craig a long time ago, like there used to be someone

00:09:07   who ran iOS and someone who ran Mac, what was then called Mac OS 10, and then eventually

00:09:11   OS 10 and now Mac OS, those were separate, and then they were combined, right? And so

00:09:16   it's not, that's not news. Now, if they mean, okay, so that happened, but now actually,

00:09:20   really, even within the organization, there's not a bifurcation. I think the article should

00:09:24   have acknowledged the past thing and said, "Now I know what you're thinking. Didn't

00:09:27   already do that when they put Craig Federighi and tried to do everything? No, even then

00:09:30   they were still too separate. The Garda doesn't say that. So I don't know quite what to think

00:09:34   there. But either way, I don't see that as a big deal because unifying all software and

00:09:38   all OS efforts under a single group makes sense to me more than having them be walled

00:09:44   off from each other. Because the core OS is essentially the same plus or minus differences

00:09:49   needed for each individual platform. And there's so much shared between them and so many APIs

00:09:53   and things that go between them like the extension mechanism, XPC, and just it makes perfect

00:09:58   sense to not have them walled off into like this is the iOS group and this is the MacOS

00:10:02   10 group and occasionally they cooperate.

00:10:03   So I don't see that as particularly newsworthy either.

00:10:08   And I also don't understand what it means that most of the team is iOS first.

00:10:11   I mean they're working on iOS.

00:10:12   I can imagine there are more people working on it because it is the more important operating

00:10:15   system.

00:10:16   It's also the younger one and it has the hardware that changes that is changing the most.

00:10:22   But what does it mean to be iOS first, as if the entire – most of them are iOS first?

00:10:27   I don't know.

00:10:29   Not enough information to get worked up about.

00:10:31   And so unless there's some other nuance that we're missing here that wasn't included

00:10:35   in the article, I'm going to say, yeah, so the groups are combined, that's fine,

00:10:38   and that's not a big deal.

00:10:40   I'll let Marco say what he thinks about this first, but there is one reason I wanted

00:10:44   to talk about this that is – doesn't have to do with the specifics of the article except

00:10:49   to say that this is a thing now, that every publication feels like they need to have a

00:10:54   Mac Malaise article where they talk about either cranky Mac users or Apple failing those

00:10:58   Mac users or both, and then some story about how the Mac is fading and stuff like that.

00:11:02   So that is the season for that kind of article, and this was sure one of them.

00:11:06   Yeah, I mean, I honestly don't have a lot to say about this specific article. I do obviously,

00:11:12   as we all know, have a lot to say about the topic of the state of the Mac and Apple seemingly

00:11:20   neglecting things that I care about. But this particular article, as is typical with Mark

00:11:26   Germin articles, contains a few solid new, you know, stated facts, whether they're

00:11:31   true or not, we don't know, but stated as fact, you know, a few new information bits,

00:11:36   but then this whole narrative around it that is questionable and of a lot less credibility,

00:11:42   know, Germin has very good sources for facts, but he often gets the story and the narrative

00:11:50   wrong or the reasons wrong. So we have to take everything in this that's about reasons

00:11:58   or people's feelings or what they, you know, what they think or why they do things, take

00:12:04   all that with a grain of salt because that, you know, that could all be completely bogus

00:12:08   or at least misleading or missing some kind of subtle

00:12:13   distinction or detail.

00:12:14   So, what we have to work with here,

00:12:17   you know, John nailed it, like,

00:12:19   there's not a lot of new stuff here,

00:12:20   and the stuff that is new, like that they tried

00:12:24   potentially terraced batteries in the 2016 MacBook Pro,

00:12:28   yeah, that's not that interesting.

00:12:30   If they would have crammed more battery into it,

00:12:32   it would have been heavier.

00:12:34   Batteries are heavy.

00:12:36   Empty gaps around the square batteries

00:12:38   are very lightweight.

00:12:39   So if they would have, like,

00:12:42   one of the reasons this laptop is so pleasant to use

00:12:46   is that it is noticeably lighter than the previous one.

00:12:49   If it was less lighter than the previous one,

00:12:53   then it wouldn't be as good of an update.

00:12:56   So that's kind of a non-story,

00:12:58   that they tried these different kind of battery in it.

00:13:02   And, you know, they try lots of things,

00:13:03   and there's a reason why not everything ships.

00:13:06   That isn't that important.

00:13:07   - There was another one of the stories they had

00:13:09   was about the MacBook, that they had a bigger one

00:13:10   and a heavier one and they went with the skinnier one.

00:13:12   But again, the conclusion, they picked the lighter one

00:13:17   and then the engineers had less time to figure out

00:13:20   how to cram all the electronics into the thin one.

00:13:22   The idea that the way the company is working

00:13:25   is try a bunch of different approaches,

00:13:26   then eventually pick one, and then the narrative

00:13:29   that this leaves the engineer scrambling

00:13:31   to get the final one done.

00:13:33   - Well, welcome to Apple.

00:13:34   - Yeah, that approach of trying multiple ideas,

00:13:37   First of all, I don't think that's new.

00:13:38   Like look underneath all Johnny Ives black cloths and his things.

00:13:41   He's got tons of, you know, they try tons of stuff.

00:13:43   And then eventually you pick one and there's lots of time pressure to do it and so on and

00:13:47   so forth.

00:13:48   But again, if they're going to make this argument, you have to add more.

00:13:52   It has to be like, this is a thing, you know, in the past they did X and the results were

00:13:58   Y.

00:13:59   And now they're doing Z and the results are Q.

00:14:00   Like you need something to tie it together instead of just saying they did this thing

00:14:04   and this is what happened.

00:14:06   Is that any different than literally every other piece of hardware they've made in the

00:14:10   past 10 years?

00:14:11   Or is it the same?

00:14:13   The article isn't saying one way or the other.

00:14:14   We're led to believe that this is a nefarious, terrible thing, that two possible approaches

00:14:17   to a product were done and one of them didn't work out and they picked one, and then it

00:14:21   was a difficult task to get that one done in time.

00:14:23   We're led to believe that that is a sign that, I don't know, that they don't care about the

00:14:27   Mac.

00:14:28   I mean, if anything, they care about it more because they're doing twice the work and throwing

00:14:30   half of it away.

00:14:31   I don't know.

00:14:32   This article is so confused.

00:14:34   - Yeah, I feel like Germin really,

00:14:37   he got a few good facts,

00:14:39   and he really wanted to tell this story,

00:14:41   and so he kind of shoved the facts

00:14:45   into the story he wanted to tell,

00:14:46   but it doesn't all make good sense.

00:14:48   It is not, you know, it isn't a great fit in some cases,

00:14:52   and this, honestly, you know,

00:14:54   not to pick on Germin too much,

00:14:55   because pretty much every journalist

00:14:58   I've ever had any dealings with

00:15:00   has done exactly the same kind of thing, you know?

00:15:02   the story is usually decided up front and the facts are found to support it. And I have

00:15:08   my own theory about what the narrative is for the problems that the Mac is having inside

00:15:12   of Apple, and a lot of it lines up with this. So I want to agree with this, I want to believe

00:15:18   it, but the fact is there's very few facts here to support the story, and especially

00:15:22   very few new facts.

00:15:24   Yeah, so the larger point I wanted to make about this whole topic is something I keep

00:15:29   in mind every time we discuss it, and in general, is—and I think I brought it up before—imagine

00:15:36   for a second that we fast-forward 20 years and look back and realize that what's actually

00:15:44   happening during this period is that PC and desktop computing is slowly fading away as

00:15:51   a thing.

00:15:53   If you are a fan of that type of thing, as we are, during the time when it was fading

00:16:00   away, I'm not sure it would feel any differently than we feel about Apple doing this stuff

00:16:07   now.

00:16:08   Can we tell the difference between Apple not prioritizing the Mac and that being the wrong

00:16:15   thing to do, and us being indignant and angry and telling Apple, "You should be doing this,

00:16:22   you're doing that instead and you're making a mistake and it's really important for you

00:16:26   to do this for all these reasons, you know, so on and so forth.

00:16:28   Kind of like why Apple should have a Mac Pro, which I wrote a thing about and so did Marco

00:16:32   more recently and, you know, what the needs of pro users are, whatever.

00:16:38   I don't think it would feel any different from our perspective if we're right or if

00:16:42   we're wrong.

00:16:43   Like, it feels the same either way.

00:16:46   And I keep that in mind because it's like, I mean, it doesn't really change how I feel.

00:16:49   I still wish they would pay more attention to the Mac.

00:16:51   But every once in a while I have a moment of clarity and say, "Well, say Apple is

00:16:55   doing exactly the right thing, and we are yelling and screaming and trying to tell them

00:17:00   to do the wrong thing."

00:17:04   It's difficult for me to distinguish those two scenarios.

00:17:07   Now, I mostly disagree that they are doing the right thing.

00:17:10   I think they're doing the wrong thing.

00:17:11   But setting that aside for a second, the other part I take, that thought experiment, leave

00:17:17   it over there and then say, "Okay, let's say Apple is right."

00:17:21   And this is a technology that—a product and a style of working and everything that

00:17:25   is fading from view.

00:17:26   It will die with us because we are the last group of people who are ever going to care

00:17:28   about this crap.

00:17:29   And actually, the right thing for Apple to do is to get rid of it.

00:17:33   In that case, I still have one more thing left to complain about Apple—complain to

00:17:37   Apple about.

00:17:38   And that's that if they really believe that, they should be honest about it.

00:17:44   They should hasten the transition.

00:17:46   They shouldn't string us along with a series of platitudes like we talked about last time,

00:17:50   Like we've got great desktops and the iMac is the best desktop and we're really dedicated

00:17:53   to the Mac and we love the Mac.

00:17:55   And I think it's complicated by the fact that Apple doesn't speak with one voice.

00:17:58   It is, you know, especially after Jobs is gone.

00:18:01   It's a company made up of a bunch of people.

00:18:03   And I think there are people inside Apple, probably Phil Schiller, probably even Craig

00:18:07   Federighi, who feel the same way about the Mac as we do.

00:18:10   Only they're inside the company, right?

00:18:11   So when they make statements like, "Oh, we think the Mac is really important and we're

00:18:14   really dedicated to the Mac," and blah, blah, blah, I think that's the truth.

00:18:18   Then they believe it, right?

00:18:19   And to the extent that their power exists inside Apple, they're trying to make that

00:18:23   happen.

00:18:25   But it could be that that opinion is not universal throughout the company and may not be the

00:18:30   position that eventually wins.

00:18:32   So what we end up with is a company that perhaps has rightly, like in the worst case scenario

00:18:37   for us, the company has rightly seen that this product and this way of computing is

00:18:44   a relic and it needs to go away.

00:18:46   But instead of saying that, instead of saying, like I said last time, instead of saying,

00:18:50   "Oh, laptops are the future, there's no more desktops and the Mac is going to be no more

00:18:53   pretty soon.

00:18:54   It's a legacy platform," as many of the scary articles have said.

00:18:58   The future is iOS.

00:18:59   We know this is painful, but it's going to happen.

00:19:01   Sorry.

00:19:02   Instead of saying that, every time there's any crankiness about it from their customers,

00:19:08   they say reassuring things.

00:19:10   They say, "Oh, don't worry.

00:19:12   Like I know it seems like we don't care about the Mac, but we totally do.

00:19:14   It's super important.

00:19:15   the Mac, blah blah blah blah blah. And then they proceed to, you know, their actions don't

00:19:19   back that up. Time and again their actions, you know, give us something, throw a little

00:19:24   crumb our way, and then leave us hanging. Or, you know, the Mac Pro, the trash can. Like,

00:19:30   they did this amazing thing and then left us hanging for three years. And now we're

00:19:35   not getting much of anything from the Mac these days. Very, far less frequent updates,

00:19:41   that aren't as satisfying to traditional Mac users, and we just get some, you know,

00:19:47   random platitudes. So I think that even if we are dinosaurs, and we are the last generation of people

00:19:54   that's ever going to care about this type of computing, and it will fade away with us,

00:19:58   Apple is not handling it the right way. And if it turns out that actually this way of computing is

00:20:03   not going away, then Apple is definitely not handling it the right way, as discussed many

00:20:08   many times in the past.

00:20:09   But anyway, that's the point I wanted to make

00:20:11   about these type of articles is that if like us,

00:20:13   you are upset about the Mac,

00:20:16   you always have to think that it could be

00:20:18   that you are a relic, that you are the Apple II user saying,

00:20:21   the Mac is never gonna be the future.

00:20:23   You can't get real work done on the Mac,

00:20:24   Apple II forever, right?

00:20:26   Or any other thing you can think of

00:20:27   or any other analogy, the buggy whip salesman,

00:20:30   horse versus automobile, whatever you wanna,

00:20:34   even in radio versus television,

00:20:36   movies, the internet versus everything that came before it basically. Sometimes you're

00:20:42   in that group that is being left behind. And if you are, it looks and feels exactly the

00:20:49   same as if the whole rest of the world is doing something terribly wrong and you're

00:20:53   the only one who knows about it. And unfortunately, it's difficult to say which way things are

00:20:58   going to go until later. So five years from now, ten years from now, I think we'll have

00:21:02   much more clarity about whether we ended up being right or wrong.

00:21:09   But either way, right now, I think Apple is mishandling things in one direction or another.

00:21:15   So Jon, as somebody who was at one point a iPod Touch devotee, when did you know that

00:21:26   that was not the right way forward?

00:21:28   When did you know that the iPod Touch was not the right device for you anymore?

00:21:32   I think it was more than just you not wanting to pay for a more expensive cell phone plan,

00:21:38   right?

00:21:39   So at what point did you say, "You know what?

00:21:40   The iPod Touch is not long for this world," or alternatively, "It's not satisfying my

00:21:45   needs and it's time to get an iPhone."

00:21:48   Because I feel like that's a similar situation, right?

00:21:51   You seem to have been on the wrong side of that, and it seems like the writer answer

00:21:56   is to be an iPhone person rather than an iPod Touch person.

00:22:00   >> Now, Apple was on the wrong side of that one.

00:22:04   That situation, it's not like I wasn't changing from the Apple II to the Mac or from the Mac

00:22:11   to an iOS device.

00:22:13   iPod Touch is an iPhone minus the phone part.

00:22:16   Like it's the same OS.

00:22:17   It's the same experience.

00:22:18   It's not a different platform.

00:22:20   It's not a different paradigm.

00:22:21   It's not even a different form factor.

00:22:23   It's basically the same exact thing.

00:22:25   Now Apple did stop updating it to keep pace with the phone stuff.

00:22:29   But that was so easy to make that switch,

00:22:31   'cause like, I'm not even changing anything.

00:22:32   Like it's literally the same thing,

00:22:34   only now there's a phone in it, right?

00:22:36   And it's just faster and it's nicer.

00:22:37   And so that was an easy thing to make.

00:22:40   And the reason I think Apple was wrong

00:22:42   is because that's not a transition.

00:22:43   There's no transition from iPod touch to iPhone

00:22:46   that Apple needed to make.

00:22:47   They didn't need to get like the dinosaurs

00:22:49   off of the old platform.

00:22:51   It's the same freaking thing.

00:22:52   They just decided that it wasn't as important.

00:22:54   And well, I don't know if I'm gonna say they're wrong,

00:22:56   'cause they were probably right in terms of volume,

00:22:57   because they probably sell way more phones

00:22:59   those things, so who cares, whatever. But what I want to say about them being wrong

00:23:02   is there was no, strictly speaking, there was no strategic reason to migrate people

00:23:09   off the iPod touch, because it's not like a legacy platform. It is the current platform.

00:23:14   It runs the current version of the iOS. It is getting people into the iOS ecosystem.

00:23:20   There's nothing about it that is counter to their broad strategy. It just doesn't sell

00:23:24   as much and they can justify the investment of keeping updated or whatever. So in that

00:23:28   respect they're probably right but in terms of like have they done the opposite

00:23:31   they would not have been making a strategic mistake they just update that

00:23:35   and lockstep with the rest of the iPhones like they had done before

00:23:37   everything would be fine they wouldn't be selling any more iPod touches their

00:23:41   iPod touch customers might be a little bit happier you know but but you're

00:23:46   right that the one similarity that has is when they stopped updating it

00:23:52   frequently enough and when I saw that if I really want the fastest iOS device

00:23:56   available or anything that's even in the ballpark, the only choice I have is an iPhone, that's

00:24:00   when I had to switch. And like I said, it was easy because it's the same thing, it's

00:24:04   the same platform, it's the same software, everything.

00:24:06   - Fair enough. So Marco, what do you think about all this? I mean, you've been stunningly

00:24:11   quiet. I know you have some thoughts here, so lay it on me.

00:24:14   - I mean, I almost don't know where to begin. It's like, I honestly don't care too crafty

00:24:19   about the iPod Touch, but the whole story about what's going on with the Mac, I care

00:24:25   very, very much about. It's hard to know where to start, so forgive me if this is disorganized,

00:24:32   like most of what I say. What bothers me about the discussion around this and about seemingly

00:24:39   Apple's position on this by their mostly inaction around a lot of the Mac product line, and

00:24:44   the Mac OS honestly, is that, you know, to pull up the old Steve Jobs truck analogy,

00:24:51   which it's not an amazingly fitting analogy

00:24:54   because cars and trucks are not computers and phones.

00:24:58   That's not, it doesn't fit incredibly well.

00:25:01   But there's enough parallels with what he was saying

00:25:04   that I think it's worth revisiting that for a second

00:25:09   and kind of trying to explain how I feel.

00:25:11   The way I feel as a, not only as a Mac user,

00:25:14   but as a Mac Pro user, really.

00:25:18   Apple is like the only manufacturer in the world

00:25:22   of decent trucks.

00:25:24   And they discovered a few years ago

00:25:27   that cars are more profitable.

00:25:29   And so they've decided, you know what,

00:25:32   we're just hardly gonna update trucks anymore

00:25:34   and we're just gonna not make the biggest ones anymore.

00:25:38   And most people don't need the biggest ones.

00:25:41   But some people do.

00:25:43   And what if it takes 20 years

00:25:44   to develop a good truck making company?

00:25:48   So I know this analogy is being stretched to hell

00:25:51   and it is like long gone

00:25:53   and I'm abusing the crap out of it.

00:25:55   However, Apple is abandoning parts of the market

00:26:00   for which there is no substitute

00:26:03   for what Apple has been making.

00:26:05   And if they're not abandoning it, they're neglecting it.

00:26:07   And they might be abandoning it soon.

00:26:10   And everyone says, the Apple excusers

00:26:15   who hear discussion about this

00:26:17   often respond with, well, they're just not making

00:26:20   computers for you, or this product just isn't for you

00:26:23   anymore, or they don't care to satisfy your needs anymore.

00:26:26   But to some degree, it isn't that simple,

00:26:30   because these needs will continue to exist.

00:26:33   People who need Macs, period, to do their work,

00:26:38   and people who need high-end Macs also,

00:26:41   or certain high-end software and hardware needs,

00:26:45   those needs continue, whether Apple feels like addressing

00:26:48   them or not, but if Apple has been addressing them

00:26:52   all these years and then stops, that leaves those people

00:26:55   really screwed, like with nothing,

00:26:58   because it isn't usually as simple as jumping to Windows.

00:27:02   Unless what you do is, as I described about the server

00:27:06   studio two episodes ago, if what you do is primarily

00:27:10   in one Adobe Creative Suite app or something like that,

00:27:13   where it's an app that's available on both platforms,

00:27:16   and that's most of what you do for your computer needs

00:27:19   for that computer or whatever,

00:27:20   like if it's a workstation

00:27:21   or if it's a studio computer or whatever.

00:27:24   That's a different story.

00:27:25   But for people who use the whole OS in integrated ways,

00:27:29   multiple software packages,

00:27:30   maybe software that's only available on that OS,

00:27:32   you can't just like, oh, just start using Windows.

00:27:34   No, it isn't that simple.

00:27:36   And there's a lot of investment

00:27:38   both in not only software that you buy,

00:27:40   but also there might be custom software

00:27:42   that is developed for this OS that doesn't exist

00:27:45   on the other OS.

00:27:47   Or if you're a developer, like you've built

00:27:49   your software library, your code base,

00:27:52   your customer base, all on this OS.

00:27:55   So just telling people like, oh, just go use Windows,

00:27:58   like that's not a great answer.

00:28:00   If Apple stops addressing a market,

00:28:03   in many cases, those people are just completely out of luck.

00:28:08   And there seems to be this like,

00:28:10   this like design virus.

00:28:13   Like it's this kind of like cult of saying no as a feature.

00:28:18   And it's almost as though like when people back,

00:28:22   you know, back when like Samsung first like started

00:28:25   really ripping off Apple heavily,

00:28:27   Steve was still alive for that part.

00:28:29   The way people would rip off Apple would basically be like

00:28:31   to look at some kind of superficial quality

00:28:34   that Apple products have, like oh,

00:28:36   everything is like rounded and has blue,

00:28:39   you know, bulbous colors on it or whatever.

00:28:41   And it has no, you know, it removes ports or whatever.

00:28:45   Like, they would take some kind of superficial quality

00:28:47   and just apply that as gospel

00:28:50   without really understanding why that was done that way.

00:28:54   And without understanding that there were trade-offs

00:28:56   involved and that sometimes you shouldn't do things that way.

00:28:59   And like, you know, basically copying like

00:29:02   a superficial attribute and just replicating it

00:29:05   without understanding why and without ever questioning it.

00:29:08   I almost feel like that's how Apple's designing

00:29:11   their own product line now, as like kind of repeating the,

00:29:16   oh, just I guess we can make it thinner,

00:29:18   because what else are we gonna do?

00:29:20   I guess we can remove some ports,

00:29:21   because that's the future, in quotes.

00:29:23   But it's almost like they've lost track of why it's so,

00:29:27   why it's sometimes worth removing things,

00:29:30   why it sometimes isn't, and it's like they're saying no

00:29:34   or removing things for the sake of saying no or removing them. And this is kind of permeating

00:29:40   now the Apple commentary culture right now of kind of assuming that everything that Apple

00:29:45   takes away or makes worse is for the future and inevitable and it's universally a good

00:29:52   thing. Of course this was progress. And they apply that same thinking to when Apple basically

00:29:59   cuts off somebody's needs and say, "Oh well, I guess they just don't feel like serving

00:30:04   you anymore or you're not worth serving.

00:30:06   And by the way, for a company where like,

00:30:11   you have quarterly results that keep going down,

00:30:14   and product lines that seems like the growth

00:30:18   is being problematic for you,

00:30:20   I'm not sure it's the wisest move in the world

00:30:23   to throw away market share that you've earned hard

00:30:26   over the last decade or two.

00:30:27   Like, to tell somebody your needs

00:30:32   are not worth serving is a big slap in the face to them.

00:30:37   And that doesn't leave people happy with Apple

00:30:40   or likely to buy a lot of other Apple stuff.

00:30:43   And so they're literally throwing away market share

00:30:46   with everything they cut, neglect, or change for the worse,

00:30:51   or choose not to address.

00:30:53   They're literally throwing away market share.

00:30:55   And in a market like the PC market,

00:30:59   where market share is hard to come by

00:31:01   and there's not a ton of growth happening of the market as a whole, that's kind of the

00:31:06   opposite of what you should be doing, really. Apple should be trying to address more needs

00:31:09   with the Mac, not fewer. But anyway, going back to the more general stuff, I worry now

00:31:15   that Apple does think, Apple and also comment, the Apple commenters all seem to support this

00:31:21   notion unquestioningly, that removing things and making things "simpler" which often involves

00:31:29   cutting off people's needs and what they were doing,

00:31:32   that that's universally a good thing.

00:31:33   And I think that deserves more critical thinking at Apple.

00:31:38   I think that deserves more pushback.

00:31:40   And because sometimes that is the right answer,

00:31:43   but not every time.

00:31:44   And it really does seem like Apple has lost the ability

00:31:48   to tell the difference.

00:31:49   - So what did you think about what I said before

00:31:52   about how from the inside it's difficult to distinguish

00:31:55   between the situation that you described

00:31:57   and the situation where Apple's actually right

00:31:59   and they're just not being honest maybe with themselves even,

00:32:04   but certainly not with us,

00:32:05   about the fact that we're moving away from it.

00:32:08   You think you could tell the difference

00:32:10   from our perspective,

00:32:11   whether we're just being left behind and it's painful,

00:32:15   or whether we're actually right

00:32:17   and Apple's doing something stupid?

00:32:18   - Honestly, I don't know.

00:32:21   I don't have any way to know that.

00:32:23   You can look at the market.

00:32:25   There is a clear trend that mobile is up and PC style OS's including Mac OS are down,

00:32:33   and that things like web browsing share, you can see that going way towards mobile now,

00:32:40   it's obvious that's where usage percentages are going.

00:32:44   I'm not yet convinced that it is inevitable that PC style computing is going to go away,

00:32:53   or even be incredibly marginalized. I don't think those are necessarily givens. I would

00:33:00   be very surprised if either of those happened actually. And granted I'm wrong all the

00:33:03   time so this could happen next year, I don't know. But what I see is a lot of common tasks

00:33:10   moving to phones and tablets, sure that's fine. Phones and tablets are wonderful things.

00:33:16   I think honestly I think the phone is the way better thing but you know we live in abundance

00:33:21   in technology now, we can have both, cool, that's fine. But I think what we see is that

00:33:26   even the most dedicated people who love using iPads for all their work, for instance, still,

00:33:36   almost all of them have a Mac because there's like one or two or ten things that you need

00:33:43   the Mac to do that iOS not only can't do, but probably won't ever do. I don't see any

00:33:51   any change on the horizon that's going to change that.

00:33:55   So I feel like it's gonna kinda like settle in

00:33:58   where right now there's like a line

00:34:00   going in a certain direction,

00:34:01   but I think it's gonna kinda look more

00:34:02   like an asymptotic curve than like a straight line,

00:34:05   where it's going to flatten and plateau

00:34:08   and like there's going to be a certain baseline usage

00:34:12   that people will just need PC style computers and OSes

00:34:17   to do this chunk of common tasks. Because the PC, and again, I use the word PC here,

00:34:24   I really do mean both Windows and Mac PCs. And I refer to the PC style operating system

00:34:32   as opposed to like iOS and Android, and especially iOS, which is really more, I mean, the way

00:34:36   iOS works is almost the way a game console works these days. Like it's very much like

00:34:40   console computing, where you have like everything is very much locked down, much more proprietary,

00:34:46   you have much less control as the user,

00:34:48   there's much less potential for messing around

00:34:51   or customization or hacking things

00:34:53   or using little tools that can hook into the OS

00:34:56   and provide cool functionality.

00:34:58   There's almost none of that or very little of that.

00:35:01   And then the PC style operating system

00:35:03   allows you to basically install whatever you want

00:35:06   and the programs can do to a large degree

00:35:09   whatever they want.

00:35:10   And of course that comes with good and bad.

00:35:11   There's a lot of security issues with that.

00:35:12   However, ultimately what that allows

00:35:15   is for the PC to be a way, way more customizable

00:35:18   work environment, it allows it to address needs

00:35:21   that the platform vendor never imagined,

00:35:24   and it allows it to basically fill in all of the holes.

00:35:28   So there's all sorts of, what we call edge cases,

00:35:32   which has become a bad word for some reason,

00:35:34   there's all sorts of things that we have to do.

00:35:39   I also wanna be really clear here that thinking

00:35:43   that these edge cases only apply to geeks

00:35:46   and that geeks are a small market,

00:35:47   both of those things are wrong.

00:35:49   Geeks are a frickin' huge market

00:35:51   and everyone needs to do these things sometimes.

00:35:54   So anyway, PC style operating systems fill in these gaps.

00:35:58   They are the most versatile software ecosystems

00:36:02   that can ever, that have ever existed.

00:36:04   iOS and the lockdown kinda console computing model

00:36:10   that it provides is very nice in a number of ways.

00:36:14   But one thing it really isn't is versatile.

00:36:16   It's capable, you can do a lot of things,

00:36:18   but it's not versatile.

00:36:20   And PCOSs fill that in.

00:36:25   So there are so many needs that really can either

00:36:29   only be done on PCOSs or are just so ridiculous

00:36:33   to do on iOS that you only really will ever

00:36:37   want to do them on PCOSs.

00:36:39   And that I don't see changing.

00:36:43   I don't see some kind of massive shift on the horizon

00:36:45   where iOS is gonna suddenly allow you to hook in

00:36:49   and provide your own battery widget in the status bar

00:36:52   and allow apps to talk to each other more directly

00:36:54   and share files more directly.

00:36:56   I don't see that.

00:36:57   That would ruin iOS in a lot of ways.

00:37:01   So there's always gonna be massive types of things

00:37:04   that are really only possible on PCOSs.

00:37:07   And the percentage of time that you need to do one of those things will probably continue

00:37:13   to shrink over time the way it has. But I don't think those needs are going away, so

00:37:18   I don't foresee a future in which a lot of people who have ever needed a PC will stop

00:37:24   needing a PC completely. They might use it less, they might replace it less often, I

00:37:28   mean we see that now. But they're still going to use them. So for Apple to completely neglect

00:37:35   that which they're not doing yet, they're not completely neglecting it, they're partly

00:37:39   neglecting it now. But for Apple to basically slowly let that die I think is incredibly

00:37:45   unwise and I think that threatens their dominance in their more profitable markets. Because

00:37:52   part of the reason that people love iPhones so much is that a lot of the people, not all

00:37:57   of them, but a lot of the people who both use and buy iPhones and also who influence

00:38:02   other people to use and buy iPhones,

00:38:05   a lot of them are Mac users.

00:38:07   So if the Mac starts to wither or dies,

00:38:10   a lot of those people are gonna start looking around

00:38:13   and consider different phone platforms as well

00:38:15   because a lot of the advantage to using an iPhone

00:38:17   is how it integrates well with the Mac environment.

00:38:19   Not all of it, again, this doesn't represent everyone

00:38:21   who buys an iPhone, obviously it's a much bigger market,

00:38:23   but this is a non-trivial sized group

00:38:27   and it's a very influential group.

00:38:29   And so to completely throw away everything they've built with Mac OS, which is amazing,

00:38:36   to completely throw away all of the goodwill of all these millions of users that they've

00:38:40   built up over decades, I think is an incredible strategic error. Not to mention the tragedy

00:38:48   it is for those of us who use PCs, which is nearly everybody. Those of us who use PCs,

00:38:57   If Apple leaves or effectively neglects this market,

00:39:01   there's nothing better left.

00:39:04   Windows is not good.

00:39:06   We can probably get by on Windows, but it's not good.

00:39:10   Linux is really not made for this.

00:39:13   I mean, you can kind of wedge it in there,

00:39:17   but it doesn't do a great job of being a desktop OS,

00:39:19   and it serves many fewer needs.

00:39:22   Mac OS is the cream of the crop,

00:39:26   and no one's gonna come along and just make another Mac OS.

00:39:31   That takes 20 years, and really good talent,

00:39:34   and really good direction, and really good opportunities

00:39:36   that are probably not gonna happen ever again

00:39:38   in personal computers, or at least in our lifetimes.

00:39:40   So Apple, to some degree, like somebody on Twitter,

00:39:44   I'm sorry, I forget who right now,

00:39:46   somebody on Twitter said earlier that they almost have

00:39:47   like a social responsibility to the world of computing

00:39:50   to keep making Mac OS, to keep satisfying these needs.

00:39:54   - Oh, that's going way too far.

00:39:55   Is it?

00:39:56   - Yes.

00:39:57   - You know what?

00:39:58   I bet Steve Jobs would have agreed with that statement.

00:39:59   - Maybe.

00:40:00   I mean, who knows, but.

00:40:02   - Steve Jobs loved computers.

00:40:04   And even when new stuff came out, he loved computers.

00:40:07   And he, I think, I mean, I don't know him,

00:40:10   but I think that's the kind of thing

00:40:13   he would have agreed with.

00:40:15   You know, his whole thing like the glass of water in hell,

00:40:17   or the glass of ice water in hell,

00:40:18   like I really do think that he saw it

00:40:20   as like his responsibility to bring

00:40:22   good computing to the world.

00:40:24   And Apple still does that with iOS, certainly.

00:40:28   And the Mac is still good for now,

00:40:30   but it is very, very clear that the Mac is not

00:40:34   being given the priority and resources

00:40:38   that it needs to move forward.

00:40:40   It's very clear that whatever level of resources

00:40:44   and priority it's getting now is enough

00:40:46   to kinda Steve Ballmer the Mac line.

00:40:49   Like it'll keep going, it'll make some money,

00:40:52   it'll be profitable.

00:40:54   but the ship won't be able to turn,

00:40:56   because that takes more than what they're giving it.

00:41:00   And so if and when the market turns into something new,

00:41:05   whether that's VR, AR type stuff,

00:41:07   whether that is something like the Surface Studio,

00:41:10   or who knows what else will come along the way,

00:41:13   whatever is going to be the next big change

00:41:16   in PC style hardware and software,

00:41:19   I can almost guarantee that Apple will miss it.

00:41:22   I can almost guarantee that Mac OS will fall behind because they are simply not giving

00:41:26   it enough thought and priority to make it stay on top of the game.

00:41:31   They're doing well now because they had such a big lead over Windows in so many areas for

00:41:36   so long.

00:41:38   But eventually that lead's going to go away.

00:41:40   It's going to take a while because Microsoft is not very good at things.

00:41:44   But eventually something big is going to come to the world of PCs that people want, that

00:41:49   it will shift to.

00:41:50   Apple will not be ready. They absolutely will not be ready. And they will totally miss it,

00:41:57   and that's when they will lose the mat completely. Right now it seems like they're okay with

00:42:01   that outcome because of their actions, whatever they say, their actions say that they are

00:42:07   okay with that outcome. And I think that's a huge mistake.

00:42:10   We were sponsored this week, again, by CocoConf. Go to cococonf.com, use code ATP to save 50%

00:42:19   on tickets for Yosemite and Chicago.

00:42:22   CocoConf is a technical conference

00:42:23   for Apple developers and designers.

00:42:25   It's amazing.

00:42:27   Next year, on March 20th through 23rd,

00:42:29   CocoConf will be returning to Yosemite National Park

00:42:32   for its third Yosemite event.

00:42:34   This is again held at the Yosemite National,

00:42:36   in the Yosemite, I'm sorry.

00:42:38   This is again held at the Yosemite Lodge at the Falls,

00:42:40   right in the heart of Yosemite National Park.

00:42:42   It is a beautiful, picturesque venue.

00:42:45   In fact, there's even a guided photo walk

00:42:47   led by TED photographer James Duncan Davidson,

00:42:49   who is both an awesome photographer and a super nice guy.

00:42:51   And they have amazing speakers,

00:42:53   including Ashley Nelson Hornstein, Brent Simmons,

00:42:55   Daniel Steinberg, David Smith, Georgia Dow,

00:42:58   Jamie Newberry, Matt Drance, and Sebastian DeWitt.

00:43:01   Personally, I have seen almost all of these people speak.

00:43:04   They are great, they are top of their field.

00:43:07   I highly recommend that you go to this.

00:43:09   And you can also get music from James Dempsey

00:43:11   and the Breakpoints, and by our theme song author,

00:43:14   Jonathan Songaday Mann.

00:43:16   I've also seen both of these acts,

00:43:17   and they're also both amazing.

00:43:18   So this is a fantastic event in an amazing location.

00:43:23   Yosemite National Park, I mean it's this beautiful,

00:43:26   beautiful park, I can't even describe it.

00:43:29   And all of this is with these great speakers

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00:43:57   - So I don't know when it was, four, maybe five years ago.

00:44:03   There was this magazine that was called The Magazine.

00:44:13   And I pitched a story to the magazine about the importance of the manual transmission.

00:44:22   And much to my dismay, it was refused because somebody else has already, had already basically

00:44:28   claimed a story on the manual transmission. As it turns out, that story was by the terrible human

00:44:34   being Dan Morin, who, as it turns out, wrote a much better story than mine. And I will forget to

00:44:41   Lincoln in the show notes, but my version of the story is on my old Tumblr blog somewhere

00:44:47   that you can dig up if you're interested. The manual transmission on a modern car means a

00:44:54   tremendous amount to me. And I don't say that to be funny, I don't say that in a hyperbolic way.

00:44:59   I genuinely mean that. I will be devastated when there comes a time that the only car that I can

00:45:08   by with a manual transmission is one that I don't want.

00:45:11   Say, for example, a pickup truck.

00:45:13   And I'm not saying a pickup is wrong for other people,

00:45:16   but it's not the kind of car that I want.

00:45:18   - Well, it's an edge case, you can just ignore it.

00:45:21   - I know you're being snarky, but you're kind of right.

00:45:24   - I'm not, it's like the most popular selling vehicle

00:45:27   in America. (laughs)

00:45:29   - I see your point.

00:45:31   - It's actually an excellent analogy,

00:45:33   because pickup trucks are the kind of thing

00:45:34   that most people never think about,

00:45:37   but they're actually everywhere,

00:45:39   and tons of people need them to do their jobs.

00:45:41   And a lot of people just like them.

00:45:43   - Yeah, you're right.

00:45:44   And you're right, that is a pretty good analogy,

00:45:46   but it ruins my whole story, so I'm gonna ignore it.

00:45:50   (laughing)

00:45:51   - Okay, feel free, move on.

00:45:52   - But the point I'm driving at is,

00:45:54   is that for me, I want a four-door passenger car

00:45:59   with three pedals in it.

00:46:02   That's what I want.

00:46:03   And to me, driving a car with only two pedals is not enjoyable.

00:46:13   In some ways, I think it's a little bit unsafe, and I know a lot of people are going to disagree

00:46:16   with that, and that's fine.

00:46:18   But I just don't...it's not for me.

00:46:21   I don't care for it.

00:46:23   And until I cannot anymore, I will always choose cars that have a manually operated

00:46:31   clutch.

00:46:33   what I want, that's what I'm interested in, and that's what I will do until I have a compelling

00:46:40   reason not to. As in, my left leg is broken, or I'm down a limb somewhere, whatever. All of that said,

00:46:49   I don't think there's any question that I am one of few, and that the rest of the world not only

00:46:58   is moving on, but has moved on. It's a miracle—that's a bit overblown, but I'll stick with it—it's

00:47:05   a miracle that you can buy a 3-series BMW with a 6-speed. It's a miracle that Tina was

00:47:12   able to get a 6-speed Accord in 2016. And it's clear that you guys, Jon, had to go through

00:47:20   some hoops to get it. It's not like you pulled it off a lot, it's not like they shipped it

00:47:23   in from Connecticut or New York or something like that. It was built specifically for you

00:47:27   because nobody else wanted that. It's clear to me that driving a manual transmission is

00:47:33   not long for this world. But why? I love it. In so many ways, I think it's better. But

00:47:41   the fact of the matter is, I'm one of a very, very small breed, and I'm one of a group that

00:47:48   is going away in ever-increasing numbers. Look at the take rate of the manual transmission

00:47:53   on M3s and M4s. They're plummeting. The only reason that the M5, the most recent M5, the

00:47:59   F10, it's F10, right? The only reason the F10, M5, god, this sounds like a pickup. Anyway,

00:48:05   the only reason the most modern M5 had a manual transmission was because of Americans, of

00:48:10   all people, which is really weird. And it was only in America. I believe that's true.

00:48:15   I might have my facts wrong, but it doesn't matter. You get the point.

00:48:17   - At least North America. - Right, right. So nobody else seems to want

00:48:21   transmission. And to be honest, on paper and by most metrics, the transmission that

00:48:26   Marco's M5 had is better. It's better in pretty much every measurable way. But

00:48:33   here it is. I'm going to be really frickin' pissed that whenever I buy my

00:48:40   next car, it's a 50/50 shot, I won't be able to get a six-speed. And when I

00:48:45   looked for my car, which admittedly I got used, which to some degree makes things a

00:48:49   lot worse but it took me something like six months to find this car because to find a 335 with the M Sport

00:48:57   package in white is hard.

00:48:59   That wasn't a criteria you big jerk. To find a 335... It just happened to be white. It did! Like all of your other cars.

00:49:06   No, the other ones were deliberate. This one was an accident. But anyway,

00:49:09   the point is to find one with an M Sport package, that was really difficult.

00:49:15   But to find any 3-series with a 6-speed? Get out of town.

00:49:19   Because you're going to be waiting forever. It's impossible.

00:49:23   But here it is. That's what I want. And that's what's right for me.

00:49:27   I don't care if it's not right for you. It's what's right for me.

00:49:30   But the fact of the matter is, I'm a dying breed. I'm one of few.

00:49:35   And I cannot expect BMW to forevermore cater to Captain Casey.

00:49:41   It's just not going to work. It's not profitable. It's not manageable.

00:49:45   It's not understandable, it's not reasonable, it's not gonna work.

00:49:51   All that being said, I love the Mac.

00:49:54   Hand on heart, I cannot begin to describe how much I love the Mac.

00:49:58   I feel so much faster on the Mac than I do on iOS.

00:50:02   That doesn't mean I can't do equivalent things on iOS in most cases, but I love the Mac.

00:50:07   I feel hamstrung when I'm on an iOS device.

00:50:11   I feel crippled.

00:50:13   I feel like I have handcuffs on.

00:50:15   That's not the case for everyone.

00:50:17   Clearly, people like Federico and Mike Hurley

00:50:21   and so many other people have done amazing things on iOS.

00:50:24   I'm not trying to say that iOS isn't right or good

00:50:27   or great or amazing.

00:50:28   For me, it is not the right answer.

00:50:32   And I love the Mac.

00:50:33   I feel at home on the Mac.

00:50:36   I feel free on the Mac.

00:50:38   And yes, that sounds really ridiculous and lame

00:50:40   and kind of granola, but I mean it.

00:50:42   - No, it doesn't. - I feel free on the Mac.

00:50:44   I really do feel free on the Mac.

00:50:46   I agree with you, Marco, that I will be devastated

00:50:49   if the Mac goes away.

00:50:51   But the more I look around,

00:50:53   and the more I see the people around me,

00:50:56   the more clear it is that I am not one of the many,

00:51:00   I'm one of the few.

00:51:01   And at some point, at some point,

00:51:05   this group that loves the manual transmission,

00:51:08   this group that loves macOS,

00:51:10   isn't gonna be big enough to really frickin' matter anymore.

00:51:13   and I will be devastated. I mean that word, I use that word deliberately. I will be friggin'

00:51:20   devastated when that time comes. Maybe not as much as you two, but if not, really damn close.

00:51:26   Because as much as I beat the two of you up about, you know, conventioning about the Mac,

00:51:31   and the state of the Mac, and this and that, I agree with you. I want the Mac to live forever.

00:51:36   But to me, it's becoming more and more clear that I'm not going to have a manual transmission much

00:51:41   longer. And I'm not convinced, but I'm not terribly sure that I'm going to have a Mac

00:51:47   much longer. And I think the reality of the situation is all three of us are just going

00:51:52   to have to come to grips with that. And it doesn't make me happy. It doesn't make me

00:51:55   smile. It makes me really damn sad. Not to the point that I'm losing sleep over John,

00:51:59   but it makes me really damn sad. And I hope that I'm wrong. God, I hope I'm wrong. But

00:52:05   at some point, all three of us need to look around and say, you know what? We aren't the

00:52:10   ones that matter anymore. And I look at Erin, who is by every measure a far more normal

00:52:17   human than I am, in every measurable way. And I look at her and I think to myself, she

00:52:22   has this MacBook Air, and yes, it went underwater twice, but nevertheless it's working today.

00:52:28   [laughter]

00:52:29   Which is, to clarify for any listeners who forgot, it was Casey's fault it went underwater,

00:52:33   not Erin's.

00:52:34   Absolutely, my fault.

00:52:36   But she very rarely uses her MacBook Air.

00:52:40   Why? Because her iPhone works for her.

00:52:43   I gave her my old iPad, the first Retina iPad, was that the third generation iPad? Doesn't matter.

00:52:53   I gave her my old iPad, she never touched it because her phone was enough for her.

00:52:57   And I think that for most people, that's pretty much the truth.

00:53:02   the truth. Maybe not at work, but in Erin's case, she's a stay-at-home mom, so that is her work,

00:53:07   actually, come to think of it. For a lot of people, they don't need Macs. Now, take Tiff,

00:53:13   for example. Tiff is also a stay-at-home mom, but she has other things that she does, and she

00:53:17   absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, needs a Mac. So I'm not trying to say this is universal,

00:53:21   but I take Erin as an exemplar of somebody who is normal or a lot more normal than I am, and she

00:53:28   does have a Mac and she does use her Mac, but if I told her that her Mac was gone forever,

00:53:33   say for example if I dumped a bunch of water on it, I think she'd be okay. And none of this makes

00:53:40   me happy. I'm not pleased to say these things, but in summary, I think all three of us need to

00:53:45   realize that we're part of a group that's getting ever smaller and that's ever less profitable,

00:53:51   and that probably doesn't matter that much to Apple. And that sucks. It totally sucks,

00:53:57   but it's reality. **Matt Stauffer**

00:54:00   I don't know if we want to refute all the things you say, because I think Marco and I could

00:54:03   rebut many of this, but I want to point out that both of you seem to be uninterested in my thought

00:54:11   experiments on assigning it to you as a homework assignment, because right now you're still talking

00:54:15   about whether or not what we think might happen is happening. And I'm still more interested at

00:54:21   this point in how you would tell the difference between the two scenarios, between the Cayce

00:54:26   scenario where we're stick shift drivers or Apple II users and it's just happening to us,

00:54:31   and the scenario, the more Marco scenario, where Apple is doing something dumb and

00:54:36   really they should be supporting the Mac because if they don't those needs aren't going away.

00:54:42   And again, not the specific arguments on either side of it, but how if you are in the middle of

00:54:47   it as a Mac user, as an Apple II user, as a stick shift driver, what should you look for to

00:54:53   distinguish those two situations, right? And I'm not sure I have great answers either, but

00:54:58   I think it's something worth thinking about. So we could table that as a homework assignment,

00:55:02   I suppose. And on the specific stick shift things and on the Mac, I mean, like,

00:55:06   I'll just throw out a few of them, like so. The idea that we're shrinking, like, percentage-wise,

00:55:12   Mac market share, the line for Mac market share in the, you know, just in any kind of line you

00:55:20   you want to put overall PC market share, Mac sales, years versus years. It looks way better

00:55:25   than the stick shift line. Like way better. The stick shift line fell off a cliff years

00:55:30   ago and is in a basement. And the Mac line, if you look at it on all the graphs, it's

00:55:34   boring, but it's pretty steady. So regardless of, you know, just in terms of degree, I mean

00:55:41   you could still totally be right about it or whatever, but in terms of degree, I'm going

00:55:44   to say that the Mac is not in a stick shift situation. I mean we would know it if it was

00:55:47   If it was in a sick situation, I wouldn't have to go to seven different stores and beg

00:55:52   people to sell me a car.

00:55:55   I have money.

00:55:56   I want to give you – will you give me – no, I swear.

00:55:58   I talk to so many dealers.

00:56:01   Everybody wanted to sell me a CBT accord.

00:56:02   Nobody wanted my money.

00:56:03   I'm like waving dollar bills in their face.

00:56:05   I have money.

00:56:06   I'll do your finance thing.

00:56:08   Whatever incentives you have, I'll do them.

00:56:10   No, no, we don't have any of those.

00:56:11   Maybe try back later.

00:56:12   Maybe – anyway.

00:56:13   So we're not in that situation yet.

00:56:16   And the other thing on what Marco was talking about, one aspect that would show that Apple

00:56:22   is screwing this up, and this has happened in the past to Apple specifically, is that

00:56:29   if Apple doesn't fulfill the needs of some market and that market is heavily invested

00:56:35   in the Mac, I mean, that can wreck companies, that can really disrupt the industry, but

00:56:40   more than any other type of business.

00:56:43   People that need computers, PC style computers for professional needs are

00:56:49   the most willing and able like as an industry, not as an individual company

00:56:53   and perhaps, but the most willing and able to bail and go to something else.

00:56:58   If they're using max for video editing and Apple seems not interested in video

00:57:01   editing, the whole industry will shift to a different product on a different

00:57:06   platform. Like, so they'll stop final cut and they'll go to avid or, you know,

00:57:09   Same thing with audio editing applications or 3D, 3D for a little while looks like the

00:57:15   Mac might be a factor, but it's like, nope, Windows NT or just has SGI.

00:57:19   People switch from SGI's to Windows NT, which seems unheard of.

00:57:23   They'll switch.

00:57:24   If you don't fill their needs and they still need to do this thing and it seems like you're

00:57:27   not supporting them anymore, they will ditch you and retrain everybody and buy all new

00:57:32   hardware and a whole bunch of companies will go out of business because they won't make

00:57:34   that transition and they'll hate you forever and they will change.

00:57:38   One good way to tell if Apple is being smart about this or not is if they abandon these

00:57:43   industries and people still need to professionally edit video on a PC style workstation and Apple

00:57:48   isn't interested in selling them hardware that works with their needs, they will switch

00:57:51   to Windows.

00:57:52   They absolutely will.

00:57:53   They will hate it.

00:57:54   They may be sad.

00:57:55   The people who are dying to Apple users will be sad.

00:57:57   Some companies might go out of business because they can't absorb the cost to turn over all

00:58:01   the hardware and retrain everybody, but they absolutely will switch.

00:58:05   And that's a bad sign for Apple.

00:58:07   And my final point, I know we need to get to the Q&A part and we will.

00:58:11   My final point is that if there are any Apple people listening, hi Craig, to this podcast,

00:58:17   and if you're sitting there as like an important person inside Apple and you're hearing all

00:58:22   this moaning about these three diehard Mac users who are talking as if the Mac is already

00:58:28   dead or talking about that possibility and you're like, "How is this happening?"

00:58:34   Maybe they disagree with what we're doing with the Mac, but like, we must be, you know,

00:58:38   if you have this feeling like, what are we doing to make these customers, our most loyal

00:58:42   customers, our customers that love to give us money and want to buy Macs, and they think

00:58:46   the platform is dead, like, if you have that feeling, like, that something has gone terribly

00:58:51   wrong, it could be one of two things.

00:58:53   One, that you are one of those people inside Apple that I was just talking about who feels

00:58:56   the same way about the Mac as we do and is totally honest and every time they get up

00:58:59   on a stage and say we care about the Mac, it's really important, blah, blah, blah, but

00:59:03   but maybe the rest of the company doesn't agree with you.

00:59:05   Or two, the whole company's all on the same page

00:59:08   that the Mac is really important

00:59:10   and you're doing the world's worst job

00:59:11   of convincing your most loyal customers of this fact.

00:59:14   But pretend it's the truth.

00:59:16   If it is the truth, you're doing a bad job

00:59:19   of convincing Mac users of that fact.

00:59:22   So no matter how you slice this,

00:59:24   something Apple is doing is wrong.

00:59:27   Strategically, PR-wise, marketing timing.

00:59:31   - Yeah, well that's true, specifically on the issue

00:59:36   of how Apple's handling the Mac.

00:59:39   There is no way around the fact that something Apple

00:59:41   is doing is wrong.

00:59:42   It's just a question of whether they're wrong

00:59:44   by not being honest with us, they're wrong by not being able

00:59:48   to convince us of a thing that really is true,

00:59:50   or they're wrong that they shouldn't,

00:59:51   they are de-emphasizing the Mac and they shouldn't be.

00:59:54   And all those possibilities are kind of up in the air,

00:59:56   and I think we've talked about a lot of them,

00:59:57   but like something is going wrong here.

01:00:00   As is true with so many things in 2016, something has gone wrong.

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01:01:27   (guitar strum)

01:01:29   - All right, Jon, so you've come up with some ground rules

01:01:31   about the Q&A section,

01:01:32   which I actually think were quite clever.

01:01:34   So would you like--

01:01:35   - I love that you had to have rules.

01:01:37   All right, we're gonna do Q&A, but they're gonna be rules.

01:01:41   - Those rules are mostly for YouTube,

01:01:42   but for the people who are listening,

01:01:44   I just wanted to tell you. - Oh, really?

01:01:45   They're for us too, I see, okay.

01:01:47   - Well, you know what I mean, for us, not for the audience.

01:01:49   But as far as the audience is concerned, here's the deal.

01:01:52   We asked for questions just today,

01:01:53   So you had one day to send in questions,

01:01:55   you were supposed to send it through the email form.

01:01:57   If you sent it through Twitter,

01:01:57   you didn't follow directions.

01:01:59   I maybe I didn't specifically say don't send it through

01:02:02   but I totally said, send it here.

01:02:03   That's what the colon means.

01:02:04   It means that in this URL, there you go.

01:02:06   Anyway, we got tons of questions.

01:02:09   That's great.

01:02:10   A lot of people ask repeat questions.

01:02:12   We, I picked and Casey picked

01:02:15   and I don't know if Marco picked any,

01:02:16   a subset of these questions.

01:02:17   So if you send in your question,

01:02:19   it's probably not gonna get answered

01:02:20   because we had tons of questions and I just picked them out.

01:02:22   Sometimes you ask 17 questions and I just took two.

01:02:25   Sometimes I rephrase your question.

01:02:27   Sometimes 17 people ask the same question.

01:02:29   And the person that I pick whose name is attached to it

01:02:32   is basically random.

01:02:33   So this is the system.

01:02:35   It's not a great system, but it's a system we have.

01:02:36   This was done in a rush in today.

01:02:39   What we're gonna try and do with the questions,

01:02:41   because if we didn't do this,

01:02:42   we would answer two questions total,

01:02:44   is to do them quickly.

01:02:45   So rather than answer your question thoroughly,

01:02:48   'cause a lot of these questions like,

01:02:51   what's the best thing that Apple did last year?

01:02:52   That's a whole show.

01:02:53   Like that's not a, you know.

01:02:55   So those questions are still in there.

01:02:57   And our challenge, as the people who are speaking

01:02:59   on this podcast, our challenge is to go against

01:03:01   everything that's in our instincts

01:03:02   and to try to answer these questions

01:03:05   with one or two sentences and then move on.

01:03:08   Which means we're not gonna be able to have

01:03:09   a big discussion about them,

01:03:10   but hopefully we will get to more of your questions.

01:03:12   So that's the strategy.

01:03:14   - All right, so I guess I will start the MC process

01:03:18   and then if somebody else takes over, that's fine.

01:03:21   We begin with Brian Hamilton, who asks,

01:03:22   "How long does it take for Marco to edit an episode?"

01:03:25   I'm gonna put that aside for just a split second.

01:03:27   "Does Casey still do his listen through?

01:03:29   "The turnaround for episodes has been much faster lately."

01:03:32   So, quick recap, it used to be that I would listen

01:03:35   through each episode and I would mark when somebody coughed

01:03:38   or we cross-talked or whatever,

01:03:39   then I would send that list of timestamps to Marco

01:03:41   and he would do the actual edit.

01:03:43   I would say it was between six months and a year ago

01:03:45   that it became obvious to both Marco and I

01:03:48   that my listen-through was getting kind of redundant,

01:03:50   and so I stopped doing that.

01:03:52   I don't know, Marco, do you remember when?

01:03:54   - I don't know, maybe halfway through the show.

01:03:57   - Okay, so with that said,

01:03:58   how long does it take you to edit an episode?

01:04:01   - Total, with all the work involved

01:04:03   and posting and everything,

01:04:04   it helps a lot that you do the show notes now,

01:04:07   which I used to do the show notes,

01:04:09   and it put too much time on me,

01:04:12   so I was having to spend way longer,

01:04:14   and we were doing back and forth,

01:04:15   that it took way, I had to do my part,

01:04:18   and you had to do your part, took forever.

01:04:20   Now, total editing time is probably about

01:04:24   three to four hours for a two hour show.

01:04:28   - Which is a lot of time, but doesn't seem terrible to me.

01:04:30   - Yeah, and a lot of that is also because I'm using Logic,

01:04:34   and Logic is not made for this,

01:04:36   and this is one of the reasons I want to make my own editor,

01:04:39   because I think if I made my own editor

01:04:41   that was custom optimized for editing podcasts,

01:04:44   I think that three to four hours could be one to two hours,

01:04:48   and with a lot less mousing and typing.

01:04:50   - All right, I wanna elaborate, but I'm gonna move on.

01:04:52   Stephen Ham asks,

01:04:53   "Have you read the Sweet Home Guide to toaster ovens?"

01:04:55   I think this is mostly meant for Jon.

01:04:57   "Have you tried their pick?

01:04:59   "Do you agree with their methodology?"

01:05:01   - This is a super common question

01:05:02   to get it on Twitter all the time.

01:05:04   I don't always respond to it

01:05:05   'cause it's just so common at this point.

01:05:07   "Yes, I have read the Sweet Home Guide to toaster ovens.

01:05:10   "Yes, I have tried their pick.

01:05:11   "Casey has a nice blog post

01:05:13   It lists all my toaster reviews.

01:05:15   And if you go to that page, which I've sent to many people, their pick is on it.

01:05:18   So you can hear what I have to say about it.

01:05:19   Do you agree with their methodology?

01:05:22   I have different priorities.

01:05:23   For example, their top pick, the reason I dinged it was it was smaller than I would

01:05:28   like.

01:05:29   It doesn't fit as much stuff in it, and so that kind of disqualifies it for being able

01:05:33   to put four big slices of bread or whatever in there.

01:05:36   And the UI was really weird.

01:05:37   So they prioritize the UI less than I do.

01:05:41   And the size is not – I mean, how could they make size the factor?

01:05:44   They don't know what size toaster you need.

01:05:45   They're just trying to say this thing toasts really quickly, which I said in my review,

01:05:48   and really evenly.

01:05:49   So yeah, that's the thing with any reviews, including the Sweet Homes.

01:05:53   You read them to find out information, but you also are trying to find out what they

01:05:57   prioritize and you have to compare that to how you prioritize.

01:06:00   So it's not as if I disagree with anything they did, it's just that we have different

01:06:03   priorities and you can hear that in the reviews.

01:06:05   All right.

01:06:06   Mike Reinhart asks, "Marco, what apps on your phone

01:06:09   "do you have red badges?"

01:06:11   And to give a little context here,

01:06:14   Marco has made it very clear over the years,

01:06:16   and I think you're right,

01:06:17   that having these red badges with counts and whatnot

01:06:20   is kind of ridiculous and stress-inducing.

01:06:22   So Marco, what apps have red badges?

01:06:24   - It's actually a pretty short list.

01:06:27   The two that always have a red badge are phone and mail.

01:06:31   And the reasons for that are basically

01:06:33   I suck at responding to email,

01:06:34   I use Marco's Unread as an organizational tool,

01:06:36   which I know is wrong, and with phone,

01:06:38   I never listen to my voicemail.

01:06:40   So I have voicemails here, let me see.

01:06:42   My earliest unplayed voicemail is from October 3rd.

01:06:46   I currently have 10 of them.

01:06:49   - So that's why you leave the badge on that?

01:06:52   Even though you, like, that would seem like

01:06:54   the reason you turn it off, because it's meaningless,

01:06:55   'cause it's always gonna be red, right?

01:06:57   - You know, I've never even considered the possibility

01:06:58   that I could turn it off, I guess I'll look into that.

01:07:00   I also have one on photos right now,

01:07:02   just 'cause there's like some shared album,

01:07:04   probably from Casey that has something on red.

01:07:07   I have one on the Apple podcast.

01:07:08   - Speckle in the sunglasses, spoiler alert.

01:07:10   - Cool, I have one on the Apple podcast app

01:07:13   'cause I have a folder of a handful of other podcast apps.

01:07:16   Basically as I'm designing Overcast,

01:07:18   I try to make sure that I don't rip off

01:07:20   other apps too closely.

01:07:21   So if I'm adding a new feature, for instance,

01:07:24   and I have to design the UI, I basically go and check,

01:07:27   am I ripping off a competitor really clearly here

01:07:31   or am I doing my own thing?

01:07:32   'cause I'd like to do my own thing whenever I can.

01:07:34   So I always have podcast apps that are showing

01:07:36   their own unread badges that I didn't ask for.

01:07:38   And then finally, I have a folder that shows

01:07:40   an unread badge of 1500 because it is actually

01:07:44   underscore David Smith pedometer plus plus app

01:07:47   that is showing that as my step count for the day

01:07:48   which is actually horrible.

01:07:50   And I just open up the app and it's actually 5800.

01:07:52   So that was just out of date.

01:07:54   But anyway, that's it.

01:07:56   Everything else I have on my phone is either

01:07:58   some app that I turned it off for

01:07:59   or a game that doesn't use it.

01:08:00   So that's it.

01:08:01   Brian Moon asks, "How did all of you meet initially?

01:08:04   "Online, through Mac/software channels,

01:08:07   "or perhaps at a car dealership?"

01:08:09   So I've told this story in bits and pieces,

01:08:14   but I don't know that I've ever told

01:08:16   the complete version of the story,

01:08:17   and part of that is because I thought it was kind of fun

01:08:20   to have a little bit of ambiguity

01:08:22   about how the three of us met,

01:08:24   but 201 episodes in, perhaps it's time to remove all doubt.

01:08:28   So Marco and I met when we were 10.

01:08:32   Does that sound reasonable?

01:08:34   Something like that?

01:08:34   - Something like that.

01:08:35   - My recollection, and I'll give you a chance

01:08:37   to interrupt in a second here, Marco.

01:08:39   My recollection is that your mom was a school teacher

01:08:42   and for the summers you would go to a lake

01:08:45   in upstate New York.

01:08:46   And my grandparents, my dad's parents,

01:08:49   had a house on the same lake.

01:08:51   And it was one of those situations

01:08:53   where we were like the only kids that were anywhere nearby.

01:08:56   it came to light to our mutual caregivers that, "Oh, we have, you know, boy children around the

01:09:03   same age, they should hang out." And so we would hang out and basically write either "Choose your

01:09:09   own adventure games in VB1" or "Play too much Transport Tycoon," just generally be nerds and

01:09:14   get yelled at to go outside. And then we kind of lost touch for a long time. And around the time

01:09:20   that Tumblr started, or right around the time that we graduated college, at least that's my

01:09:24   recollection. We got back in touch and then I visited, or well, Aaron and I at this point

01:09:30   actually, visited you at Tumblr and then ended up meeting up with Tiff and I think this was...

01:09:34   It was '09.

01:09:35   Yeah, and so we got back in touch after that and we got close again. You know, there was never like

01:09:41   a "screw you, man, I hate you." It was just, we fell out of touch. And so we got close again and

01:09:45   then of course, because of that, I started listening to Build and Analyze and Hypocritical.

01:09:48   And then when I started going to WWDC in 2011, I ended up meeting John through Marco. And then

01:09:54   And then Jon and I kind of got to be friendly and then eventually got to be relatively close.

01:09:58   And then, you know, the whole story of me needling Marco, "Hey, we should do a car show.

01:10:02   We should do a car show."

01:10:03   And Marco said, "Hey, you know, we should get Jon involved because, you know, Jon also

01:10:06   just stopped a podcast and would probably like to talk cars."

01:10:09   And so we did neutral and then here we are on ATP 201 episodes later.

01:10:15   That was as brief as I think I can reasonably make it.

01:10:17   It's pretty good.

01:10:18   Any thoughts from either of you?

01:10:20   There's no thoughts, no time for thoughts.

01:10:23   (laughing)

01:10:24   Cody Mims asks, question mostly for Marco,

01:10:26   why do you give Stitcher/Google Play Music flack

01:10:29   for being a podcast walled garden, but not iTunes?

01:10:32   Not saying they're not bad for other reasons,

01:10:34   but iTunes isn't exactly the wild west.

01:10:37   - This is a pretty easy one, it's a question of degree.

01:10:40   iTunes is a directory of public RSS feeds.

01:10:43   Once you subscribe to a podcast on iTunes,

01:10:46   the software then goes directly to the RSS feed

01:10:48   every single time, downloads the episodes

01:10:50   directly from your server,

01:10:51   wherever you specify the feed to point to.

01:10:54   And iTunes is basically out of the loop

01:10:55   after that very first browse and subscribe action.

01:10:59   That's it.

01:11:00   So whereas Stitcher and Google Play Music

01:11:03   are their own entirely proprietary

01:11:06   crawling playback stats downloading platforms.

01:11:10   And you have to do all sorts of giving up data to them

01:11:15   and agreeing to their terms and everything.

01:11:17   Where iTunes is really about as much of a directory

01:11:20   as Yahoo was for the web back in the day.

01:11:22   It's like iTunes is happy to have you go there,

01:11:25   find what you want, and then iTunes is removed

01:11:29   from the loop, they're cut out of the loop,

01:11:30   and then you're just dealing with the feed.

01:11:32   So basically the way Apple does things with podcasts

01:11:35   is in support of an open ecosystem.

01:11:38   Whereas the way Stitcher and Google Play Music

01:11:41   are doing podcasts, it is a completely closed ecosystem

01:11:45   that simply uses your RSS feed as input,

01:11:47   but then copies over your audio, re-hosts it,

01:11:50   has everybody just participate within that system,

01:11:53   and it's more like leeching off of the open world,

01:11:57   rather than what Apple does,

01:11:58   which is really participating in it,

01:11:59   and then kind of handing you off to it.

01:12:01   - The other minor difference that I would add

01:12:03   is that it's too late for iTunes.

01:12:04   iTunes, it is a problem that everything

01:12:06   is so centralized in iTunes.

01:12:08   I mean, it's a benefit, obviously,

01:12:09   that that's a place where you go to find your podcast,

01:12:11   but it's also a problem, but it's way too late.

01:12:12   Like, by the time we got into it, iTunes was already there.

01:12:15   So it is more useful in general to complain

01:12:18   about the up and comers to say,

01:12:19   you new thing that is coming that seems to be worse

01:12:22   in all the ways that Marco just described,

01:12:23   stop doing that, go away.

01:12:26   Whereas by the time we came on the scenes,

01:12:27   iTunes was already the winner of where you find podcasts

01:12:31   if you are a Mac user.

01:12:32   - Well also, the iTunes as a directory,

01:12:36   it's actually really nice to have

01:12:38   a human monitored directory in podcasting.

01:12:41   - Yeah, now I said it's a benefit,

01:12:42   but it's also not great that one company controls that.

01:12:47   'Cause again, if Apple decides they don't care,

01:12:48   then we are left to the wolves,

01:12:50   the wolves being Google Play and Stitcher.

01:12:53   - Well, fortunately I built up this little thing

01:12:54   on the side that has its own directory

01:12:55   that kind of, as an insurance policy against that.

01:12:59   - A friend of the show, Ryan Jones,

01:13:00   who you heard us talk about earlier today.

01:13:03   - Author of Weather Line, great weather app.

01:13:05   My favorite weather app.

01:13:06   - It's been five years since Steve Jobs died.

01:13:09   How was Apple doing relative to your expectations

01:13:11   shortly after his death?

01:13:12   - This is the big challenge, guys.

01:13:13   This is the big challenge.

01:13:14   Get ready.

01:13:15   (laughing)

01:13:16   - So, despite the fact that we've been complaining

01:13:19   earlier this episode, I think that all things being equal,

01:13:24   this is at least meeting my expectations, if not exceeding.

01:13:29   I think Apple has its problems, but it's doing well,

01:13:32   and I'm okay with this.

01:13:34   - Good job, Casey.

01:13:35   You're up, Marco.

01:13:35   - All right.

01:13:36   - I think somewhere between healthy and Steve Ballmer.

01:13:39   - Wow, that's a big range.

01:13:42   - Can you nail that in where between?

01:13:43   (laughing)

01:13:44   - Maybe like a third of the way away from Steve Ballmer.

01:13:48   So like closer to that than healthy,

01:13:50   but not like right on top of that.

01:13:52   And what I mean by that, you know,

01:13:53   Steve Ballmer was able to continue Microsoft

01:13:56   into very profitable times.

01:13:58   He was a very good businessman to keep things going.

01:14:01   But he was clearly not able to identify

01:14:05   future product direction that needed to happen

01:14:08   and turn the company into that.

01:14:11   I think Tim Cook has much of the same issue.

01:14:14   Not as badly, I think Tim Cook is a much better leader

01:14:17   than Steve Ballmer, especially in lots of ways,

01:14:20   but especially in product direction.

01:14:23   But I still think he has that problem.

01:14:25   And I still think that when the next big things come,

01:14:28   Apple will miss them.

01:14:30   And it's just a matter of time before

01:14:31   that's a big problem for them.

01:14:33   - Jon?

01:14:34   - So I think they're, I'm gonna say they are falling

01:14:38   slightly short of my expectations.

01:14:40   I'm mostly meeting them.

01:14:41   Like, if you had said, "What do you think Apple's gonna be like?"

01:14:43   I would have described a scenario very similar to where we are now, with the exception that

01:14:46   I would have said that at least one of the few things that Apple would try would hit

01:14:50   stronger than it has, whether it's the watch or car or whatever.

01:14:53   So I think they're slightly under, but not by much.

01:14:56   In other words, I'm not shocked about where they are.

01:14:58   I think that's a good way of looking at it.

01:15:00   Ryan continues, "Of the necessary apps, podcast player, notes, Twitter, photos, mail, et cetera,

01:15:05   which are you least satisfied with?

01:15:07   In other words, what app that you use every day,

01:15:08   because it's the best available, do you still not love?

01:15:11   I'll start in, and I don't know if he intended

01:15:14   to limit this to iOS or not.

01:15:16   I will give two answers very quickly.

01:15:18   Number one, Overcast for the Mac.

01:15:21   Number two, Slack. (laughing)

01:15:23   Slack is a dumpster fire on the Mac, and I hate it,

01:15:27   but it's the best option available.

01:15:29   - Yeah, I'm gonna go Photos.

01:15:31   Photos is an app that, like, I use it constantly.

01:15:34   It is a big part of my life.

01:15:36   both on iOS and the Mac, the iOS is mostly capture,

01:15:39   the Mac is mostly curation of the collection,

01:15:42   editing, importing from cameras,

01:15:43   and then picking through and doing minor edits.

01:15:46   The iCloud Photo Library sync system is great.

01:15:50   I have never had problems with it.

01:15:51   It is wonderfully convenient.

01:15:53   It works quickly and reliably

01:15:55   the vast majority of the time for me.

01:15:57   So the sync system is great.

01:15:58   However, the Photos app, especially on the Mac,

01:16:01   is very frustrating for me to use to do anything,

01:16:06   beyond getting the photo.

01:16:07   Like, it's nice that it syncs, that's wonderful.

01:16:10   But then once I wanna do anything with the pictures,

01:16:12   whether it's as simple as like, you know,

01:16:14   when I took 50 photos during this event

01:16:17   and I wanna narrow it down to 10,

01:16:19   like photos on the Mac is just the worst

01:16:21   in the world for that.

01:16:22   Like, it is so clunky, it is so like unnecessarily clunky.

01:16:26   Even doing basic editing operations,

01:16:28   you have to wait and sit through all these animations

01:16:29   and modes, switches and everything.

01:16:32   It basically seems like it's fighting me doing anything,

01:16:36   even the most basic operations that everybody

01:16:38   would want to do with their photo app.

01:16:40   But I do love the syncing so much that I tolerate that,

01:16:44   but I do wish the app was better, especially on the Mac.

01:16:47   - John?

01:16:47   - I thought the last question was the challenge

01:16:49   to try to simply say how you think Apple's doing

01:16:51   five years after Steve Jobs is gone,

01:16:53   but instead, Marco goes for 10 minutes on the Photos app.

01:16:56   - It's not 10 minutes.

01:16:57   (John laughs)

01:16:58   - It was like two.

01:16:59   - Yeah, so I would basically agree with him.

01:17:01   I mean, I don't love photos, I love some parts of it,

01:17:05   everything I agree with everything Marco said about dealing with the app it could

01:17:08   be better but the other contender that I mean and I also kind of agree with Casey

01:17:13   about slack but I kind of do love slack despite all its grossness like eating a

01:17:19   White Castle yeah the other contender though is a another situation where I'm

01:17:23   being left behind for explicable reasons this this time you know I know I am is

01:17:28   my favorite Twitter client on the Mac hasn't been updated in forever because

01:17:33   it's not worthwhile for the developer to update this, but it is the only Mac

01:17:38   Twitter app that I like, and it's frustrating to me that it doesn't have

01:17:40   so many features and it's such a big mess because it just hasn't been updated.

01:17:45   And I know why, and I just sit here clinging to it and using it until it

01:17:48   doesn't launch anymore and then I'll be sad. And which app is that? Because

01:17:51   somebody will ask. That's Twitter-ific for the Mac, which I still really do

01:17:54   like, but it is so far behind the state of the Twitter art at this point that I

01:17:58   can't recommend other people use it. Anonymous asks, "Apple's priorities are

01:18:03   clearly iPhone, then watch, then Mac, then iPad. If you were Tim, how would you rank

01:18:09   them?" Well, if I were Tim, I would put Mac first, but that's not the way this works.

01:18:13   I think the most reasonable approach is iPhone, then iPad, then watch, then Mac. And

01:18:20   that doesn't please me to say that. I don't want it to be that way, but I think

01:18:25   I think that's the way that makes the most sense.

01:18:26   Marco?

01:18:28   - I would probably try to restructure the company

01:18:31   and the management incentives such that

01:18:33   it was not necessary to rank them like this.

01:18:35   (laughing)

01:18:36   - That's such a non-answer.

01:18:37   - I don't think that's really possible

01:18:39   unless you break it off into subsidiaries that are,

01:18:42   I don't know, I think that's dodging.

01:18:44   I think they should still--

01:18:45   - Okay, if I have to rank them,

01:18:47   it's, I hate, anyway, if I had to rank them,

01:18:51   iPhone would still be first.

01:18:52   I would put Mac second, iPad third, and watch fourth,

01:18:56   because that's basically the order in which,

01:18:59   I think it's the order of their importance,

01:19:01   along with the order in which they,

01:19:04   the amount of attention they need, basically.

01:19:06   Like, the watch is brand new and fairly young,

01:19:09   but it doesn't actually do that much.

01:19:12   It's a fairly simple product.

01:19:14   I don't think it needs a ton of updating, you know?

01:19:16   Especially like, with 3.0 was pretty good.

01:19:19   They've gotten to a good spot now.

01:19:21   it's not really dying for tons of updates.

01:19:24   The iPad is, you know, the iPad gets a lot of stuff for free

01:19:28   which just advances on the iPhone,

01:19:30   so it doesn't need a lot of its own attention.

01:19:31   It doesn't also just a file of its own attention

01:19:33   because the sales aren't that good.

01:19:34   Whereas the Mac, the reason I put it second to the iPhone

01:19:38   is not only obviously do I love it,

01:19:40   but also I think the Mac needs more attention

01:19:44   and has more influence and, you know,

01:19:46   just it's more of a foundational important part

01:19:50   of the whole market.

01:19:51   All right, I would go iPhone, iPad, Mac, watch, although I think this list is not complete

01:19:58   and I'm not entirely sure that the order given is so clearly Apple's priorities.

01:20:02   And the reason I would – we all agreed on iPhone first because I think that's just

01:20:05   a gimme.

01:20:06   The reason I'm putting iPad second is because I think it has the potential – it's the

01:20:10   only thing in Apple's lineup that has the potential to eventually someday do all the

01:20:14   things that a Mac does.

01:20:15   And the watch is so young and so new, it should not have priority over the iPad or the Mac

01:20:19   or the iPhone.

01:20:20   - Alright, yeah.

01:20:21   Also, like, you know, the Apple TV

01:20:23   is missing from this list.

01:20:25   Like, there are some things Apple does that aren't here.

01:20:28   - That's what I'm saying, it's not complete.

01:20:30   - Yeah, but I would also say, like, the Apple TV,

01:20:32   similar to the watch in that I'm not sure

01:20:35   it justifies a lot of continuous investment

01:20:38   because the reason why the Apple TV and the watch

01:20:42   and the iPad, actually, what holds these things back

01:20:46   is not just, like, software features or hardware updates.

01:20:49   It's like ecosystem limitations around them

01:20:52   that just make it very difficult for them

01:20:54   to meaningfully progress.

01:20:56   - Dan Caspi asks, "Do all of your wives

01:21:00   "listen to the episodes?

01:21:01   "Do they find them interesting?"

01:21:03   Erin does not.

01:21:04   She does listen to analog, she does not listen to ATP.

01:21:06   Marco.

01:21:08   - Yeah, Tiff listens to ATP.

01:21:10   She does not listen to Under the Radar,

01:21:14   and she's in Top Four.

01:21:15   (laughing)

01:21:16   - Jon.

01:21:17   - Yes, my wife listens to ATP.

01:21:19   I don't think she finds it interesting

01:21:21   in terms of the subject matter.

01:21:22   I think the only reason she finds it interesting

01:21:24   is because her husband is on the show

01:21:26   and she wants to hear if we say anything about her.

01:21:29   - Thanks.

01:21:30   - Hi, Tina.

01:21:31   Have you ever rejected an ad?

01:21:32   This is still from Dan Caspi.

01:21:34   Yes, we have.

01:21:35   I can't think of any examples

01:21:36   and it's probably not mature of us to cite them anyway,

01:21:38   but yes, we have absolutely--

01:21:39   - Oh, I can think of tons.

01:21:40   I mean, yes, we reject ads frequently

01:21:45   and not like every day,

01:21:46   but maybe every month or two we will turn down a sponsor

01:21:48   or we will even decide to stop working with one

01:21:51   that we have worked with before.

01:21:53   There are lots of reasons for this.

01:21:54   Obviously there's a lot of stuff that just

01:21:56   we don't think would be nice to advertise here

01:21:59   or would not fit the show well.

01:22:01   Sometimes we will drop a sponsor that we've had

01:22:03   if we get reports from people that their product

01:22:06   isn't as good as we thought it was.

01:22:08   We also strategically, we've tried to reduce

01:22:12   the amount of clothing companies and stuff like that

01:22:15   that advertise with us and increase more of like

01:22:17   the tech relevant stuff, there's tons of sponsors out there

01:22:21   that wanna sell you like a shirt subscription.

01:22:24   And that's fine, I mean look, last episode we had

01:22:26   a socks subscription, it was pretty fun,

01:22:28   it was a great spot, but I don't want the advertisers

01:22:31   to all be that kind of stuff because we're still

01:22:33   a tech show, so I wanna have some kind of focus

01:22:35   to make most of the ads tech related.

01:22:37   - All right, let's take a break and speaking of sponsors,

01:22:40   let's talk about one of the ones that is awesome.

01:22:42   - It's a shirt subscription.

01:22:44   (laughing)

01:22:45   No, it's a mattress.

01:22:46   - That'd be great.

01:22:47   That'd be so great though.

01:22:48   - Mattresses are totally tech related.

01:22:51   Everybody sleeps.

01:22:52   Sometimes everybody's smart.

01:22:54   - It's a good sponsor too.

01:22:55   I mean that's why what makes it a hard decision

01:22:57   is like a lot of these are great products.

01:22:59   So we usually won't drop them just for that.

01:23:02   But one thing that bugs me, just very quickly,

01:23:05   one thing that really bugs me is things

01:23:07   that are subscriptions that really don't need to be

01:23:09   that you're probably not going to benefit

01:23:11   from them being subscriptions.

01:23:12   So I don't mind a one pair of socks a month kind of thing,

01:23:16   'cause you're gonna use socks, that's cool.

01:23:19   What I don't like are things that are like bags of snacks.

01:23:22   You pay 40 bucks a month and get some bags

01:23:25   of snacks delivered.

01:23:26   It's like that just feels like it shouldn't be

01:23:29   a subscription, you know?

01:23:30   Or there's one that you can get dog toys delivered

01:23:34   for 30 bucks a month.

01:23:35   It's like I buy toys for my dog every time

01:23:38   with the dog store.

01:23:39   I would never reach 30 bucks a month worth

01:23:41   of total investment in that.

01:23:43   Like it's crazy.

01:23:45   But yeah, so like certain things I will outright reject

01:23:48   just because it's like I think that's BS

01:23:50   to be a subscription.

01:23:52   But yeah, so anyway.

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01:26:52   - Kyle Genaux asks, "I was wondering if there's been

01:26:56   "any new tool, software, or hardware

01:26:58   "that you've started using in 2016 at work or at home

01:27:01   "that you think deserves a shout-out

01:27:02   "or additional recognition?"

01:27:05   This is a fantastic question

01:27:07   to which I can't think of any good answer,

01:27:10   and that's unfortunate.

01:27:11   - That's the system working as designed,

01:27:13   because if you can't think of it in a couple seconds,

01:27:15   you have to pass.

01:27:16   - Yep, that's a pass.

01:27:17   - I'm gonna go with Git submodules,

01:27:20   and especially using them with--

01:27:21   - Really?

01:27:22   - Yeah, exactly, it's crazy.

01:27:24   This is not the holiday party talking.

01:27:25   This is real.

01:27:26   And using them in particular

01:27:28   with the Git Tower app for the Mac.

01:27:30   I think it's just called Tower now,

01:27:31   the Tower app for the Mac.

01:27:32   - Oh, that is fantastic.

01:27:34   I love Tower.

01:27:35   - Yeah, so I use, I mean, I have tried many things

01:27:39   over the years to basically try to solve,

01:27:42   like, how do I import other libraries,

01:27:44   either written by myself or like open source projects,

01:27:47   into, you know, how do I import shared code

01:27:49   into my apps and manage that?

01:27:50   And there's things like CocoaPods

01:27:52   and that kind of dependency manager,

01:27:54   and there's also obviously methods like

01:27:55   just copy the directory over and stick it in your project.

01:27:58   and there's Git subtrees and submodules.

01:28:01   I have no idea why those are two different things.

01:28:04   Please don't write into emailing to explain it,

01:28:06   I don't care, but thank you anyway.

01:28:08   But I have recently settled on submodules,

01:28:12   especially as managed by Git Tower,

01:28:15   this wonderful Mac app that I love so much,

01:28:17   which is just called Tower, oops.

01:28:19   And it is finally a system that I'm sticking with

01:28:23   and that I'm very happy with

01:28:24   and I've stuck with it now for a while.

01:28:26   I think it's been at least six months,

01:28:27   which is probably the longest

01:28:28   one of these systems and not hated it.

01:28:31   It's great, I have lots of my own shared libraries in here,

01:28:34   it's wonderful, and it's overall, while it is not perfect,

01:28:37   and while the raw Git way to do submodules

01:28:39   is comically obtuse, just like most of Git,

01:28:43   when you manage it with a GUI tool, it's not too bad,

01:28:46   and it is by far the lowest hassle and least fragile

01:28:50   of these systems that I've ever used.

01:28:53   - That makes me think I have been fighting CocoaPods

01:28:57   left and right at work lately.

01:28:59   - Yeah, you don't need to, just stop.

01:29:01   I'm telling you, it's so much better this way.

01:29:03   - I'm not convinced sub-modules is the right answer.

01:29:05   However, I'm really interested in Punic,

01:29:09   which is a clean room re-implementation of Carthage

01:29:12   done by Shua on Twitter.

01:29:15   God, I forgot his name off the top of my head, holy crap.

01:29:17   - What a pleasant person.

01:29:19   - Well, there's that.

01:29:20   But anyway, I've understood that Punic is very good

01:29:23   and I'd love to try it.

01:29:25   And so I can't say that that is definitely my answer.

01:29:27   Jonathan White, that's right.

01:29:29   Thank you, Sam the Geek.

01:29:30   Anyway, I would love to give Punic a shot though.

01:29:33   John.

01:29:34   - I mostly have to take a pass on this,

01:29:36   but when I read the question,

01:29:37   I realized in the letter of the question,

01:29:39   I do have a thing,

01:29:40   a new tool software hardware that you started using in 2016

01:29:44   that you think deserve a shout out.

01:29:45   I think the much faster touch ID

01:29:47   that the entire world has been using

01:29:49   for a year and a half is awesome.

01:29:51   And I love the fact that my iPhone 7 unlocks so quickly.

01:29:54   it's like magic is really, it is the,

01:29:56   I think it's the most significant change on the iPhone 7

01:29:59   that I've appreciated, maybe second to the speed.

01:30:02   - Fair enough. - Of like, you know,

01:30:03   in general.

01:30:05   - Chris Shamlu asks for Casey and Jon,

01:30:07   any desire to become independent?

01:30:08   Desired, yes.

01:30:10   Strength of soul, strength of character, probably not.

01:30:16   I recognize that having a jobby job

01:30:21   is not really any more stable than having a completely independent lifestyle, but it

01:30:28   feels more stable and has health insurance. And so right now I really like my job. I've

01:30:35   been there since February. I really, really like it and I don't plan to leave, but we'll

01:30:39   see what happens. John?

01:30:40   John: May I answer a similar? Desire, yes, but a much larger helping of fear.

01:30:45   Steven: Exactly. For Marco, still from Chris. Any desire to start a company, something with

01:30:50   with more than three or four employees?

01:30:52   - Nope, not even a little.

01:30:54   I am terrible at managing people.

01:30:56   I don't enjoy managing people.

01:30:58   I really don't enjoy the idea of having to manage investors,

01:31:01   which that would probably require.

01:31:04   And so, nope, I'm very happy limiting myself

01:31:07   to just what I can do on my own.

01:31:10   - Fair enough.

01:31:11   For all of us, who would win a 100 meter sprint?

01:31:16   Maybe me, but quite possibly Jon.

01:31:20   And in a 5K race, I have no idea.

01:31:22   You guys?

01:31:23   - The 100 meter, I don't know.

01:31:26   I'm not good at sprinting,

01:31:28   so I'd probably have to give that one to Casey.

01:31:30   5K, I would win.

01:31:32   - I think that's probably fair.

01:31:33   Why are 3D movies terrible?

01:31:35   Because it's just a gimmick.

01:31:37   Marco, any thoughts?

01:31:39   - I have never seen one, so I can't answer.

01:31:41   - Oh, you're better off that way.

01:31:43   - That's the best Marco answer ever.

01:31:45   (laughing)

01:31:46   - Are you surprised?

01:31:47   Is it really that much of a surprise?

01:31:49   - Why are talkies terrible?

01:31:50   I have never said that.

01:31:51   (laughing)

01:31:53   - John.

01:31:53   - Yeah, I can tell you why they're terrible.

01:31:54   - Tell us.

01:31:55   - I mean, they're not terrible, whatever.

01:31:58   The problem with 3D movies is

01:32:01   when we see the world with our two eyeballs,

01:32:03   we can choose what to focus on.

01:32:05   3D movies, you can't do that.

01:32:07   3D movies choose what to focus on for you.

01:32:09   So they have the 3D effect where it seems like

01:32:11   things are closer to you and farther away,

01:32:13   but if you decide to look at the background,

01:32:14   it doesn't suddenly come into focus.

01:32:16   And so it's not like the real world we experience,

01:32:18   but it's also not a flat picture like a regular movie.

01:32:21   And so it's this uncomfortable middle ground

01:32:23   that I personally find terrible.

01:32:26   - That is an annoyingly good answer.

01:32:28   Dream five car garage.

01:32:31   God, I wish I had looked at this before the show.

01:32:34   - Parentheses, $1 million budget.

01:32:37   I'm like, well, which is it?

01:32:38   - I think it's, let's say, the best five cars you can buy

01:32:42   for a million or less.

01:32:43   - Yeah, you gotta just rattle them off.

01:32:44   It's just lightning round, come on.

01:32:46   All right, so Aston Martin DBS, that's what,

01:32:49   like a quarter million, 200,000?

01:32:52   Jeep Wrangler.

01:32:53   (laughing)

01:32:56   No, I'm serious, I'm really serious.

01:32:57   They're implicitly fine.

01:32:58   - Top list, you'll have your list, Martin.

01:33:00   - So Aston Martin DBS Jeep Wrangler,

01:33:02   BMW M3,

01:33:07   Porsche Cayenne Turbo, that's four cars.

01:33:12   - I think you're over.

01:33:13   You know how you're over. - Am I?

01:33:14   - Over budget, real roughly. - No way.

01:33:15   No way.

01:33:16   I would say stay within budget and just stop short when you're done with, when you use

01:33:20   it.

01:33:21   No way.

01:33:22   The DBS is like, let's call it 200.

01:33:23   The client turbo is another.

01:33:24   No, 200?

01:33:25   What are you, are you kidding?

01:33:26   I think you need to price that out.

01:33:27   Ugh.

01:33:28   All right, fine.

01:33:29   I'll just call.

01:33:30   The Porsche, the Porsche probably has like 90K in options alone.

01:33:32   That's true.

01:33:33   All right, well, I'll just stop at four then.

01:33:36   All right, let's go to Jon since I feel like I've been going to Marco first for a lot.

01:33:39   So Jon, let's go to you next.

01:33:41   I'm gonna say Ferrari 488, Ferrari 458.

01:33:46   There's a surprise.

01:33:48   Used BMW M3, the E46 generation, the one that I like.

01:33:55   Oh, slow down, why?

01:33:56   Because that's the M3 that I like. I like how it looks. I don't like how the new ones look, but I want that type of car.

01:34:03   And Mercedes S-Class.

01:34:05   Really? Okay, Marco?

01:34:07   - I go Tesla 100D, if that doesn't exist yet, P100D.

01:34:11   Number two would be Aston Martin,

01:34:15   whatever Aston Martin is cool and sexy,

01:34:16   I don't keep track of which ones they are.

01:34:18   It's the DS, DS9, DB10.

01:34:20   - That one's the same anyway, just one is fine.

01:34:22   - The two door one, not the crazy four door abomination.

01:34:24   So yeah, one of those. - Of course, of course.

01:34:26   - And some kind of like small, simple,

01:34:29   stick shift two door car, whether it's a Cayenne,

01:34:33   I mean sorry, whether it's a Cayman, sorry, oh my god.

01:34:36   (laughing)

01:34:37   Major apologies.

01:34:39   Whether that's a Cayman or an M2,

01:34:41   it'd probably be one of those.

01:34:43   And then the other two spots, I would just leave,

01:34:46   like I'd fill spots one, three, and five,

01:34:48   and just leave spots two and four empty

01:34:50   to just have room, 'cause I love a garage

01:34:52   with some space to walk around the cars,

01:34:54   'cause I don't have that.

01:34:55   And I've only ever had very crowded garages in my life,

01:34:58   so like to have space would be an amazing luxury.

01:35:01   - You don't know crowded garages.

01:35:03   You do not know. - Truth be told,

01:35:04   I do not have a cavernous garage, but both Marco and John have tiny garages.

01:35:10   Mine is by far the smallest.

01:35:11   Also, I want to change my answer.

01:35:12   I forgot the Model S. I would throw one in there if I have budget left.

01:35:15   Yeah, that's a good call.

01:35:16   That's a good call.

01:35:17   Prodens Tatev says, "What is the best TV show/movie podcast of 2016?"

01:35:22   I feel like I should have an answer for this.

01:35:24   It's ours.

01:35:25   Come on.

01:35:26   Yeah, totally.

01:35:27   Actually, you know what?

01:35:28   I think it was in 2016 that I discovered 99% Invisible, which I know everyone else on the

01:35:32   planet has been listening to for years.

01:35:34   But I really love 99% Invisible and I just discovered it this year, so that'll be my

01:35:38   answer.

01:35:39   Jon.

01:35:40   I'm excited for you to go to Marco.

01:35:42   Marco hasn't seen any TV shows, movies, or podcasts in 2016.

01:35:45   I saw Star Wars.

01:35:47   And the new, I saw Dory, the Finding Dory thing with my kid.

01:35:51   I wouldn't put it as the best.

01:35:52   I'm not going to do best one of each because that'll turn into an uncomfortable episode.

01:35:56   I'm just going to say best TV show, my memory is so short so I could be forgetting something

01:36:00   for it, but Westworld is the most recent in my mind.

01:36:03   I think it's my favorite TV show of this year,

01:36:06   and podcasts, who knows, and movie, who knows.

01:36:08   - Marco.

01:36:11   - I think my favorite podcast of the year might be Upgrade.

01:36:16   It's the show with Jason Snell and Mike Hurley,

01:36:20   and it's basically like a tech commentary show

01:36:23   not too different from this.

01:36:24   They just do a really, really good job of it.

01:36:27   So I'm a big fan of that overall,

01:36:28   and I would say kind of my favorite new podcast recently,

01:36:32   even though that wasn't part of the question,

01:36:33   is Due by Friday by Merlin Mann,

01:36:36   Max Temkin and Alex Cox.

01:36:37   It is so incredibly funny.

01:36:39   It's pretty new still.

01:36:40   They're only like four or five episodes in,

01:36:42   but my God, this is funny.

01:36:43   It's just amazing.

01:36:45   So that is a perfect show.

01:36:47   - All right, still from Prodan.

01:36:49   How do you usually pick gifts for your loved ones?

01:36:51   Are you good gift givers?

01:36:52   I feel like every third or fourth year I do really well

01:36:57   and the rest of the time I'm a friggin' disaster.

01:37:00   Marco.

01:37:01   - Not too much better, about the same.

01:37:04   The main problem is that Tiff and I,

01:37:07   we will buy each other cool things

01:37:09   throughout the whole year,

01:37:10   so when it comes time for a holiday,

01:37:12   it's often like, well, I was impatient two months ago

01:37:16   and bought you this thing for happy Wednesday,

01:37:18   and now there's nothing left.

01:37:20   (laughing)

01:37:21   - Jon.

01:37:22   - I am a terrible gift giver,

01:37:24   and how do I pick gifts badly in desperation,

01:37:29   Hopefully with help it's a disaster totally you are an impressively bad gift receiver as well. Yes

01:37:36   Amazing I would I would abolish all the whole gifting

01:37:39   I hope my gift my wish for the world is that all of you get a chance to at some point witness John

01:37:47   Syracuse opening presents

01:37:49   Give me a prank gift of a giant thing of sprite so prank gifts. I feel like I receive with

01:37:56   with an ill manner appropriately

01:37:59   But even the real gift that you opened up before and after that, it was something to

01:38:04   see.

01:38:05   It's true.

01:38:06   All right, moving on.

01:38:07   Johnny Cirillo says, "John Ciricusta is a pioneer in podcasting and podcast format.

01:38:11   Among other touchstones like each OS X review, CGP Grey has said that he is one of his podcasting

01:38:16   heroes.

01:38:17   Marco Armond has a reputation from co-founding Tumblr to being the independent app developer

01:38:20   and able to be independent because of the App Store.

01:38:24   Caselis approaches the trio from the opposite end" — I'm not sure if that's good or bad

01:38:27   where his friendship with Marco has exposed his talents on the show itself.

01:38:30   Okay, good.

01:38:31   How have each of you managed this fame-like stature, reputation, and independence of a show as great as ATP?

01:38:37   Well, thank you.

01:38:38   Are there predecessors each of you have learned from?

01:38:41   I will start. My predecessors are Marco Arment and John Siracusa,

01:38:44   and I say that both to blow smoke up their butts and also because it's actually true.

01:38:48   Getting warm in here.

01:38:49   I was a jackal.

01:38:50   I was a jackal in the 5x5 chat room.

01:38:53   I genuinely loved both of their shows.

01:38:55   of their shows. It was both of their shows that got me into podcasts, and I really, really

01:39:01   mean that. I certainly admire many, many, many, many other podcasters like Mike Hurley

01:39:08   and Jason Snell of Upgrade, like Steven Hackett as some examples. But it was Jon and Marco

01:39:15   that really got me into podcasts, and so I really appreciate the two of them. Marco?

01:39:19   - Yeah, I basically, I have learned a lot

01:39:22   from other podcasters, people like

01:39:26   the You Look Nice Today people,

01:39:28   that was a very, very strong influence on me

01:39:31   and my style, my editing style also early on.

01:39:33   They're way better than me at it,

01:39:36   but that's kind of who I'm imitating a lot of the time.

01:39:40   I've also learned a lot from earlier podcast pioneers

01:39:43   in this space, people like Dan Benjamin, John Geruber,

01:39:47   And as Relay and Mike and Steven and the crowd over there

01:39:51   have really developed way bigger and wider

01:39:55   than a lot of us can do with just like one or two shows

01:39:58   here and there, I'm learning a lot

01:40:00   from what they're doing as well.

01:40:01   And outside of the immediate podcasting ecosystem,

01:40:05   I also learned a lot from Howard Stern.

01:40:06   I listened a lot to that as a young adult.

01:40:09   I don't listen much anymore 'cause we basically

01:40:11   can't listen whenever our kid's around,

01:40:13   which is increasingly frequently.

01:40:15   So I don't listen a lot anymore.

01:40:16   but I did learn a lot from Howard Stern's style,

01:40:21   not like the sex stuff,

01:40:22   but just his general speaking style,

01:40:25   his impatience for boringness,

01:40:27   although I didn't learn enough of that,

01:40:28   and a lot of, it's just some of the ways he does things

01:40:32   and some of his principles.

01:40:34   - John.

01:40:35   - Yeah, I don't know, I should have thought

01:40:37   about this question more beforehand.

01:40:39   So many influences like this,

01:40:40   but I always go back to the one,

01:40:41   like my main, there's a singular main podcasting influence

01:40:46   that made me understand what podcasts were as a medium, as a format, or not, you know,

01:40:52   that they are a thing, and also made me believe that it's a thing that I can do, which are

01:40:58   the two ingredients you need to become podcasting.

01:41:01   One, know that it exists, and two, somehow believe that you think you can make one.

01:41:05   That's Mer Lafferty, who used to do a podcast—she does a whole bunch of podcasts—for people

01:41:10   who want to be fiction writers. And she eventually became a fiction writer and has written several

01:41:16   novels now. And so she's had this whole big arc through that whole series. And she does a whole

01:41:19   bunch of other podcasts, people in a similar market. And, you know, I was a writer, mostly

01:41:25   doing technical writing online in those days. I wasn't writing fiction, but I like hearing podcasts

01:41:31   about writing and just hearing her do a podcast. It's just her in front of a microphone. The podcast

01:41:36   I guess it was I should be writing,

01:41:37   sitting in front of a microphone in her house talking.

01:41:41   I don't know how many hours that I listened to

01:41:43   and I thought that podcast was great

01:41:44   and I thought she was great

01:41:45   and I thought podcasts were great.

01:41:46   And then I thought, you know, I have things to say.

01:41:49   I could save them into a microphone in my house too.

01:41:51   So I'll be eternally grateful to Merle Lafferty.

01:41:54   - Nice.

01:41:55   - Daniel Peters asks,

01:41:57   "I was wondering what each of you considered

01:41:58   "your favorite Apple product was

01:42:00   "that was released this year."

01:42:02   I was thinking about this earlier actually

01:42:03   And because it's our show and in part my show,

01:42:07   I'm going to cheat and use two Apple products.

01:42:10   I frickin' love the AirPods

01:42:13   and I frickin' love my iPhone 7.

01:42:15   Yes, there's problems with both,

01:42:17   but truth be told, I really, really

01:42:20   love both of these products.

01:42:21   I think the iPhone 7 is my favorite iPhone ever,

01:42:25   in part because I didn't get Plus,

01:42:27   and the AirPods are really phenomenal.

01:42:30   So I really like both of those.

01:42:31   Jon.

01:42:32   - I'm gonna go iPhone 7 II,

01:42:33   like I already talked about the one feature of it,

01:42:35   but yeah, first of all, Apple didn't release that much

01:42:38   this year that I had contact with,

01:42:39   and as much as I like the AirPods,

01:42:41   my new iPhone is definitely my favorite Apple thing

01:42:43   that they release this year.

01:42:45   - Yeah, I'm gonna go iPhone 7 overall,

01:42:48   especially in particular the jet black finish iPhone 7,

01:42:51   because the actual upgrade to the internals

01:42:54   was a fairly minor upgrade from the 6S,

01:42:57   but the exterior change with that jet black finish

01:43:02   is substantial, it changes the way the phone feels

01:43:04   and makes it able to be used without a case

01:43:06   for a lot of people, including me.

01:43:07   So that's a pretty big change.

01:43:09   I'm also gonna give honorable mention

01:43:10   to the 9.7 inch iPad Pro, which I don't use it

01:43:15   to its full extent a ton, but I do use it very often.

01:43:18   It is my kitchen iPad and it is my main podcast player

01:43:21   in the house while doing things,

01:43:23   so I'm using it frequently.

01:43:24   And no matter how much or how little you use your iPad,

01:43:28   the 9.7 inch iPad Pro is, in my opinion, unquestionably,

01:43:32   the best iPad ever made.

01:43:33   It is better than they usually are even.

01:43:36   Like you can always say like, oh this year,

01:43:37   this iPad was the best one ever made,

01:43:39   but I think the 9.7 Pro is especially like,

01:43:42   especially clear and unambiguously a great update

01:43:46   and just an awesome product all around.

01:43:48   And there are basically no downsides to it

01:43:51   that aren't, that don't apply to every iPad.

01:43:54   And there's tons of upsides to it.

01:43:55   So 9.7 inch iPad is a home run.

01:43:58   - Omar Benami says, "I would really like to hear

01:44:01   how you do backup or share your photos

01:44:03   and your processing routines.

01:44:04   I wrote a blog-- - Another challenge.

01:44:06   - I wrote a blog post about this.

01:44:07   We'll link it in the show notes.

01:44:08   Boom!

01:44:10   Marco.

01:44:11   - Backup is a super duper clone,

01:44:14   a time machine share on my Synology, and back blaze.

01:44:18   Sharing photos and processing routines

01:44:22   is a whole different question.

01:44:24   I, oh wait, this is, sorry.

01:44:27   I've misplaced the slash in the way I parse the sentence.

01:44:31   (laughing)

01:44:32   This is about, I thought it was two different questions

01:44:34   about how do you back up, period.

01:44:36   And then also, how do you share your photos?

01:44:38   (laughing)

01:44:39   - That's not how I read it.

01:44:40   I read it as how do you back up/share your photos,

01:44:42   but it could be either way, it could be either way.

01:44:44   - Anyway, that's how I back up.

01:44:46   My photos are included in the backups, so that covers that.

01:44:49   (laughing)

01:44:50   And how do I, and my photo processing is still a mess

01:44:54   and still in flux, but the system I've used

01:44:56   for the last six months or so, or year,

01:44:58   or whatever it's been.

01:44:59   Everything on the phone stays in Photos app

01:45:01   on all platforms.

01:45:03   Everything shot on a camera goes to Lightroom first.

01:45:06   I pick and process and edit in Lightroom,

01:45:09   and then I export finished JPEGs into Photos

01:45:11   where they will live forever.

01:45:13   - All right, John.

01:45:15   - So, let's see.

01:45:16   From backups, all my photos are in a photo library

01:45:21   on the 5K iMac.

01:45:23   VET 5K iMac in its entirety is backed up to Time Machine, both locally and on my Synology

01:45:28   and also through Crash Plan.

01:45:31   I also pushed the photos up to Google Photos as well.

01:45:35   So my photos are in many places.

01:45:38   For sharing, we use the iCloud library sharing – what the hell is that?

01:45:43   It used to be Photo Streams.

01:45:44   What is it called now?

01:45:45   ICloud Photo Library.

01:45:46   No, the sharing feature.

01:45:49   Like when you want to share – anyway, we use the iCloud sharing feature because all

01:45:52   of our family you have iOS devices and they get a little notification and they can go

01:45:56   and look at it.

01:45:57   So that's how we do sharing and processing.

01:45:59   Everything goes, you know, we connect the camera to the 5K iMac.

01:46:03   It's on my wife's account so her phone stuff automatically shows up there.

01:46:07   For everything that's on my phone it goes to my Mac in Photos and periodically, in fact

01:46:11   I just did this recently, periodically I do an export on modified originals from my Mac

01:46:16   a folder and then import that folder into the Big Photos

01:46:19   library to make the iCloud family photo library

01:46:24   that Apple refuses to make.

01:46:26   - Nice.

01:46:27   To be clear, my backup is CrashPlan.

01:46:30   The only reason I don't use Backblaze is because Backblaze

01:46:33   doesn't easily support network drives.

01:46:36   If it wasn't for that, I would absolutely be

01:46:39   on Backblaze tomorrow.

01:46:40   - Yeah, that's the same reason I do it,

01:46:41   because we mount the Synology on my wife's 5K iMac,

01:46:45   And because it's a network share,

01:46:46   Crashband will back it up.

01:46:48   My personal Mac is backed up with Backblaze.

01:46:51   - There you go.

01:46:51   Ryan Goodlett asks,

01:46:52   "What's the most difficult challenge or transition

01:46:54   "that you've had in your professional life?"

01:46:56   I'm gonna go here again with a twofer.

01:47:00   I think number one, my last job,

01:47:04   I got a deserved reputation for being a complainer.

01:47:08   I think I did too much complaining, not enough fixing,

01:47:11   and it was challenging but rewarding to move away from that.

01:47:15   And similarly, I was doing something

01:47:18   that I was very comfortable in doing my last job,

01:47:20   and now I'm doing iOS development,

01:47:21   which I am comfortable in,

01:47:23   but I certainly wasn't when I started.

01:47:25   And so that was very challenging and very difficult,

01:47:28   but I'm glad I've done it.

01:47:30   Marco.

01:47:31   - This is gonna be a ridiculous humble brag,

01:47:35   and I apologize for that in advance.

01:47:36   (laughing)

01:47:38   And that is the transition to having a large enough audience

01:47:43   and enough influence that when I write something

01:47:48   it spreads often a lot more than I anticipated.

01:47:51   And there are ramifications to that.

01:47:53   And so I've basically had to learn how to responsibly have

01:47:58   this kind of audience and not get myself into trouble

01:48:03   or situations that I personally regret

01:48:07   or that exploded in my face unexpectedly.

01:48:10   And I have not completed this transition or process yet.

01:48:14   (laughing)

01:48:15   But I am slowly learning basically how to responsibly

01:48:20   have the audience that I now have.

01:48:24   - I think that was a really good answer actually.

01:48:26   Jon.

01:48:27   - I did read this before end

01:48:29   and I have been having trouble picking

01:48:30   but I guess probably the best one is,

01:48:33   I was working in college, I was working in tech

01:48:36   the industry and doing, you know, because I was the advent of the web, so I was getting into that,

01:48:39   but I also worked at like, you know, the IT help desk and stuff like that. And anyway,

01:48:42   I transitioned right from, you know, I got my first job out of college, I got it kind of when

01:48:46   I was in college and then just kept it afterwards, but then I moved away. And so I was telecommuting

01:48:53   for that job, this job that I had already had, like, it's not like I was telecommuting the whole

01:48:56   time, I had been going into the office and then started telecommuting for two and a half years

01:49:01   or so. And that transition from being a person who goes to a job as I had since I got my very

01:49:05   first job as a teenager all the way up through college and so on and so forth where you go to

01:49:09   a place and do a thing to being a telecommuter. I thought it was great and I love telecommuting,

01:49:14   but in hindsight that was a very difficult transition because I had to go all through

01:49:18   all the things that I imagine anybody who works from home has to go through where

01:49:22   you are responsible for your own time and you know you need to you know anything that anyone is

01:49:29   independent or works from home otherwise has to deal with. I dealt with that in my very first job

01:49:34   And like so many people on this very podcast,

01:49:38   my problem was not motivating myself to work.

01:49:41   My problem was having any kind

01:49:43   of reasonable work-life balance.

01:49:45   Like I didn't have kids then, but I was newly married,

01:49:47   but I spent way, way too much time.

01:49:50   Like it was like every waking second I was on the computer,

01:49:55   most of the time doing work-related things.

01:49:58   And that's when I got in big trouble with RSI issues

01:50:01   and it could have been career ending

01:50:02   and it was very difficult and just learning how to be a human being with a balance between

01:50:07   work and non-work.

01:50:08   It was especially difficult after coming off of college where for the first time I had

01:50:12   access to the internet on an ethernet connection, not a modem.

01:50:17   Like I was on the actual internet and I spent, again, every second that I wasn't in class

01:50:22   I was glued to some kind of X term or other terminal or whatever in the computer lab.

01:50:26   That wasn't a healthy balance either but that was probably the most difficult.

01:50:30   And that, I think I've more or less figured out that aspect of my professional life, balancing

01:50:35   the life part with the work part.

01:50:38   Branch Ronge asks, "If you could force Apple to enter one product category they're not

01:50:42   currently in, which would it be?

01:50:43   The pro-desktop business doesn't count yet."

01:50:47   You know, I might get dinged for this, but I'd like to see Apple do a standalone camera.

01:50:56   And I know, yes, that the iPhone particularly

01:50:59   has a really great camera, blah, blah, blah,

01:51:00   but I'd be really interested to see

01:51:02   an Apple standalone camera.

01:51:04   And I know they did that years and years and years ago,

01:51:05   back when, you know, John was a Mac user,

01:51:07   but it would be interesting to see it today.

01:51:10   Marco.

01:51:11   - This is a hard one for me to pick,

01:51:13   because my answer mostly is like,

01:51:16   stuff they already do, but just do it better.

01:51:19   But if I had to pick one, I would say

01:51:22   I would like to see them address

01:51:24   the Echo slash Google Home market.

01:51:27   But the problem with that is that I don't honestly think

01:51:32   Siri is good enough for that yet,

01:51:34   and I also don't think Apple would do any kind of

01:51:37   integrations with third party APIs and stuff

01:51:39   that would make it as useful as the Echo is.

01:51:42   So basically I want Apple to either make their current

01:51:45   products better, or if they're going to enter a new market,

01:51:48   the only one I can think of is one they'd be bad at,

01:51:49   which is probably not a good sign.

01:51:51   - Jon.

01:51:52   I'm gonna pick a gigantic desktop touchscreen thing

01:51:56   that's plugged into the wall,

01:51:58   basically a Microsoft service studio.

01:52:00   - Oh, interesting.

01:52:01   - 'Cause they're not in that market.

01:52:02   And like Marco, I can think of all sorts of things

01:52:05   that I would like them to do,

01:52:07   but then I feel like they wouldn't do a good job at it.

01:52:09   I think they could do a good job of this

01:52:10   if they put their minds to it.

01:52:12   - Buck Lomas asks, "Does anyone in the ATP group

01:52:15   "use a stand-up desk?"

01:52:16   Not at home, but at work I use a Varidesk,

01:52:18   which is the standard issue corporate sit-stand desk

01:52:23   like add-on, and I love it.

01:52:25   I can't recommend it enough.

01:52:27   It's very spendy, which is why work got it for me,

01:52:30   and I don't have one at home,

01:52:31   but I really, really, really like it.

01:52:32   If you are to get one, though, absolutely get a mat,

01:52:36   and I have a recommendation for one,

01:52:38   so ask me on Twitter if you need one.

01:52:40   - Put it in the show notes, 'cause I want it too, actually.

01:52:41   I have a standing desk that I stole from Tumblr when I left,

01:52:45   and it is really, it's a very nice one.

01:52:48   It was sold through some kind of office furniture company

01:52:51   back almost 10 years ago.

01:52:53   I'm sure the market is totally different now,

01:52:57   but one thing, I don't use it in standing mode a lot.

01:53:00   I have gone through phases where I have.

01:53:02   If I had certain back inflammation,

01:53:05   like disc inflammation in my back,

01:53:07   I would go through phases where I'd use it in standing mode

01:53:08   for almost permanently for months

01:53:11   and then go back to sitting.

01:53:12   So it is nice to have the option.

01:53:13   It's also wonderful when routing cables

01:53:15   and doing cable management and cleanup in the back

01:53:17   to just lift it up a little bit

01:53:18   and have that kind of headroom, literally.

01:53:20   But one thing I'd recommend, if you get a standing desk,

01:53:23   my biggest recommendation is get one that has memories

01:53:27   for the different positions that it can,

01:53:29   like at least two memories, so you can have at least

01:53:31   a stored seating height and a stored standing height.

01:53:34   Because otherwise, it's frustrating to like,

01:53:37   have to be fidgeting with it to get it just right

01:53:40   every time you change it.

01:53:41   So if you have memory presets,

01:53:43   you can just set it where you like it

01:53:44   and then just always repeat the same two levels.

01:53:47   John?

01:53:48   Never worked on a standing desk.

01:53:49   I would try it.

01:53:50   I'm interested in trying it, but I never have.

01:53:52   Fair enough.

01:53:53   Also, a quick real-time follow-up.

01:53:55   John Chidji, a friend of the show, asks, "How often do I use it in standing mode?"

01:53:59   Usually every day.

01:54:00   Not always, but usually every day for probably a quarter of the day.

01:54:05   Phil Chatham asks, "Although ATP is supported, have you ever considered member donations

01:54:10   aside from merchandise?"

01:54:12   We've talked about this, but maybe not on a published show.

01:54:16   We've considered it, but quite candidly,

01:54:18   I don't think it would ever come close

01:54:20   to earning as much money as a sponsorship would.

01:54:25   Any thoughts from either of you guys?

01:54:27   - Nope, you got it.

01:54:28   - I mean, our sponsorships make good money.

01:54:31   One of the things I learned from Howard Stern,

01:54:33   which I mentioned before, so I'll just go over it briefly,

01:54:35   is that he said on a number of occasions, basically,

01:54:38   that he likes to minimize the times and ways

01:54:41   in which he asks the audience for money.

01:54:44   because that way when you do ask them for money,

01:54:46   or you know, it basically makes it count.

01:54:48   And you're not like wasting that goodwill all the time

01:54:51   unnecessarily, you're not nickel and diming

01:54:52   your audience and everything.

01:54:53   So basically we try to, we sell t-shirts like once a year

01:54:57   for WBC usually or near it at least.

01:55:00   And we have you listen to a show with sponsorships.

01:55:04   And so far those are the only ways

01:55:06   we really ask you for money ever.

01:55:08   And that works for us.

01:55:09   We make good money from the sponsorships.

01:55:11   Anything else I think would not only bring in a lot less money than the sponsorships

01:55:16   would, but would also kind of cloud the message and kind of make it feel like we are like,

01:55:20   I don't know, double charging you or asking you too often.

01:55:23   - Yeah, I completely agree.

01:55:25   Charles Hart asks, "Which Apple exec is your favorite?

01:55:28   Which one," well, I guess this is multi-part, so let's start there.

01:55:30   "Which Apple exec is your favorite?"

01:55:32   I do love me some Phil Schiller.

01:55:36   He's goofy in the best possible way.

01:55:39   Although, God, now I'm thinking about Craig.

01:55:42   Yeah, I'm gonna have to change my mind.

01:55:43   I'm gonna have to go with Craig.

01:55:44   Marco.

01:55:45   - If it's about like public interaction,

01:55:50   I think I have to go with Phil

01:55:52   because Phil is, he has, he is so gloriously dry

01:55:57   and like that shows itself in weird ways sometimes

01:56:06   because he seems like he's a nice person,

01:56:10   but to get him to show genuine enthusiasm for anything

01:56:13   is seemingly not very easy.

01:56:16   And he just has an impressive level of dryness about him

01:56:21   that I really enjoy, even when you can just kind of

01:56:24   barely see it through the marketing message.

01:56:26   Like the Mario Run announcement email

01:56:29   that I posted on Twitter, that was like,

01:56:31   it was the most dry, unexcited email I've ever seen

01:56:35   for a promotional effort,

01:56:36   and that just had Phil Schiller all over it.

01:56:38   He probably had something to do with the authorship of that.

01:56:41   But, you know, I think if you look at activity

01:56:46   of whose work I like the best, that's gotta be Craig.

01:56:51   - Fair enough, Jon.

01:56:52   - Leave it to Marco to pick too.

01:56:55   Fine, I'll take it too. - I kinda did too.

01:56:57   - Yeah, if someone, yeah, I feel the same way about Phil,

01:57:01   but I gotta go with C-Fed

01:57:02   'cause he gave me my file system.

01:57:04   (bell dings)

01:57:05   (laughing)

01:57:07   - Well done, both of you.

01:57:09   All right, next from Charles Hart.

01:57:11   Which one leaving Apple would be the saddest?

01:57:14   I'm gonna absolutely go with Phil on this one, John.

01:57:17   - Yeah, Phil, definitely.

01:57:19   - I'd go Craig on that one.

01:57:20   I think, if Craig left, that would be,

01:57:24   as much as I like Phil, I think I'd be upset

01:57:27   if either of them leave, I'd be a lot more upset,

01:57:29   I think, if Craig left, because I feel like

01:57:31   that would represent so much more

01:57:34   of what I care about being gone from the company.

01:57:38   - Anyone who you'd think leaving

01:57:40   would actually be a net win.

01:57:42   I'm gonna pass on that.

01:57:43   - Ah, that's mean.

01:57:44   (laughs)

01:57:45   - Yeah, that's mean.

01:57:46   John, any thoughts?

01:57:47   - Yeah, I don't think, I don't know enough

01:57:48   about the inner workings of the company to say.

01:57:51   - Johnny, I-- - Fair enough.

01:57:52   (laughs)

01:57:53   That's cold.

01:57:55   Not a bad answer, though.

01:57:56   Andrew Dirk says, "All of you primarily use

01:57:59   "Apple devices or products.

01:58:00   What two or three non-Apple products that each of you,

01:58:03   what are two or three non-Apple products

01:58:05   that each of you use on a regular basis?

01:58:07   This is a great, great question.

01:58:09   I don't know if I can do two or three.

01:58:13   - Just list them, don't describe why they're good.

01:58:15   - But one that I can think of,

01:58:17   one that I can think of off the top of my head

01:58:19   that I absolutely frickin' love

01:58:21   and have loved for years now is my Synology,

01:58:23   which to be fair, was sent to me for free,

01:58:26   but I swear to God, I love this thing.

01:58:29   and if I knew then how much I would love it,

01:58:33   I would absolutely have paid my own money to buy it.

01:58:36   Marco.

01:58:37   - Almost all of my audio gear is non-Apple,

01:58:41   and all of my cameras, except for my iPhone,

01:58:44   which admittedly is a frequently used one.

01:58:45   - Yeah, camera is a good one.

01:58:46   - But those are all, yeah, those are all non-Apple as well.

01:58:50   And audio in and out, microphone interface,

01:58:53   headphone amp, headphones, 'cause AirPods don't fit me,

01:58:55   so I just keep that list going.

01:58:58   I'm also a huge fan of my Fujitsu ScanSnap scanner,

01:59:02   which is incredibly boring, but incredibly satisfying

01:59:04   'cause it works so well.

01:59:06   (laughing)

01:59:07   - I would also pile on on the camera one.

01:59:09   That was a great answer.

01:59:10   John.

01:59:11   - I'm gonna go with my Panasonic Plasma television,

01:59:14   which I still love.

01:59:16   My Sony PlayStation 4 Pro, which I love and play every day,

01:59:20   including just before this show,

01:59:22   finally finished out the SRL record book from last year.

01:59:25   I still kept it around

01:59:25   because I knew I would finally complete it.

01:59:28   What else? My Synology, just like Casey said with all of the exactly the same caveats,

01:59:34   if my Synology broke and I think about it breaking all the time, I would absolutely

01:59:37   buy a new one in a second. In fact, I've been thinking about buying a new one just to get

01:59:40   all the new cool one. Like, I'm looking at my Synology and saying, "You're old and your

01:59:43   disks are small. Let me buy a new one." But, you know, it's still working fine, so I'm

01:59:47   not going to plunk down that money.

01:59:49   You know you can put different disks in, right?

01:59:51   I know, but this—I don't think mine supports BTRFS and—

01:59:55   Oh, God.

01:59:57   The new ones have faster chips for transcoding,

01:59:59   for Plex stuff, and yes, I could replace the disks,

02:00:01   but then what am I gonna do with all these gigantic disks?

02:00:03   Lord knows I can't put them inside a Mac anymore.

02:00:06   - Sick burn.

02:00:07   All right, Charles Hunt asks,

02:00:08   if the Mac, excuse me, if the iMac Pro became a reality,

02:00:12   what components and configurations

02:00:14   would justify the Pro label to you?

02:00:16   That's a great question.

02:00:18   I think just an absurd amount of RAM,

02:00:23   an absurd amount of hard drive space,

02:00:25   which isn't, I mean, I shouldn't call them a hard drive anymore, an SSD space, and a really, really beefy graphics card.

02:00:31   I think the graphics card alone might be enough. John?

02:00:34   I need, I think I would justify to me, I think I need ECC RAM. I don't need Xeon's, but I need ECC RAM,

02:00:40   tons of RAM, and a big honking graphics card. Like, so the CPU is, you would expect me to list that,

02:00:47   but I'm not gonna. I would say like, whatever, ECC RAM, and I don't know, like,

02:00:51   Intel may not have those combination of parts available,

02:00:54   but technically it is possible.

02:00:56   It is your RAM and really fast graphics card.

02:00:59   - And you didn't need to have CPUs

02:01:01   because you knew I would cover them.

02:01:02   (laughing)

02:01:04   So I'm gonna go with basically two things that are related.

02:01:08   Basically they require each other.

02:01:10   I'm gonna go with both high core Xeon,

02:01:13   so like basically more than four cores.

02:01:15   Give me at least double, at least eight cores

02:01:18   because that matters and I will use that.

02:01:20   and then also, which would be required to do that

02:01:22   in the first place, give me a cooling enclosure

02:01:25   that can have the computer under very, very high workloads

02:01:30   and still be silent in the room,

02:01:32   because the trashcan Mac Pro can do that.

02:01:36   The old Mac Pros almost did that,

02:01:38   and the iMac and all the laptops

02:01:40   and everything they make today,

02:01:41   except for the MacBook One, cannot do that.

02:01:43   Everything, every other computer they make under load,

02:01:46   you hear fans, and I want a computer that is advanced

02:01:49   and graceful enough to have 160 watt CPU in there

02:01:53   and to have me never hear the fan in a regular room

02:01:56   in regular conditions when it's under maximum load.

02:01:59   - Ted Pine asks, "You're forced to choose one line

02:02:01   "of Apple computers to kill, which one is it?"

02:02:03   Definitely the Mac Pro, 'cause I'm tired of hearing

02:02:05   you two whine about it. (laughing)

02:02:06   I mean, no, all kidding aside, I would kill the MacBook Air.

02:02:09   I think the MacBook is a great replacement.

02:02:11   I don't really understand why the MacBook Air is there.

02:02:13   Okay, I do, it's about price point,

02:02:15   but really, kill the MacBook Air.

02:02:17   Marco.

02:02:18   kill everything that is non-retina

02:02:20   and has a spinning disk hard drive.

02:02:23   And that would include the MacBook Air

02:02:25   and the base models of the iMac.

02:02:28   And the Mac Mini, I think, right?

02:02:30   - You can't just pick the base,

02:02:30   this is a line of computers,

02:02:32   you've got to say the whole iMac, so.

02:02:34   The MacBook Air is the answer.

02:02:35   Like that is a line of computers and it shouldn't exist

02:02:38   and it should be removed and replaced by a better computer

02:02:41   that hits the same price point.

02:02:43   - Tom Wilkinson asks, this one is mostly aimed at Jon,

02:02:46   if you could design your perfect gaming console,

02:02:48   What would it be?

02:02:49   - It wouldn't be that different

02:02:50   than the existing PlayStation 4.

02:02:53   I'm mostly happy with everything they did there.

02:02:57   I would change the controller a little bit.

02:02:59   I would ditch the--

02:03:00   - Really?

02:03:01   - Yeah.

02:03:02   - All right, Marco, any thoughts on that by chance?

02:03:04   - Not at all.

02:03:06   - Okay, good talk.

02:03:07   Friend of mine, Aaron Thacker asks,

02:03:09   "Do you guys have any tech New Year's resolutions?"

02:03:11   Stop looking at my damn phone so often.

02:03:13   That's about it.

02:03:14   Marco.

02:03:15   - I don't really do New Year's resolutions

02:03:17   for all the Merlin reasons of like that's kind of not,

02:03:20   they're not usually productive or effective.

02:03:22   But one thing I'd like to do more of in the future

02:03:24   as a general thing is less time wasted

02:03:28   checking social media and more time making things.

02:03:31   - Yep, completely agree.

02:03:33   John.

02:03:34   - I have none, I don't do New Year's resolutions.

02:03:37   - But if you did, what would you say?

02:03:39   - I don't know, I don't think this is anything,

02:03:46   I don't think in those terms, I don't have anything.

02:03:49   - Right, fair enough.

02:03:50   E.W. Paris asks, "In the past, Apple has made cheap

02:03:53   or cheaper polycarbonate laptops and iPods,

02:03:56   both of which were bought by parents for kids

02:03:58   and by college students.

02:03:59   These were sort of Apple's version of, quote,

02:04:02   "My first Sony," oh, I miss those,

02:04:04   that started a lot of lifelong Apple users.

02:04:06   Does it concern you guys that Apple's evolution

02:04:08   to exclusively high-end hardware won't allow young users

02:04:10   to buy into their ecosystem any longer?"

02:04:13   This is a great question.

02:04:14   My first Mac was a polycarbonate MacBook, a polybook as I love to call it, which drives

02:04:21   Steven Hackett bananas.

02:04:24   I don't think it concerns me, no, but it's a great point and an interesting question.

02:04:32   Marco?

02:04:33   - I think this is more about price than about materials, and so if they are satisfying lower

02:04:40   priced here, that's great. When we were coming up in this area, the cheapest Macs you could

02:04:47   buy were like $2,000. That was in like 1990s and 2000s of dollars. After inflation, we're

02:04:56   doing pretty well. Even the new MacBook Pros are pretty awesome compared to when we were

02:05:03   younger and getting into this. I think as long as they serve lower price points somehow,

02:05:09   I think we're generally fine.

02:05:11   It is a little bit unfortunate that the way they've chosen

02:05:15   to serve lower price points is often things like

02:05:17   non-retina screens and spinning hard drives,

02:05:19   which make the product overall suck.

02:05:21   That is unfortunate, but as long as they hit

02:05:24   those price points somehow,

02:05:26   I think they're okay on this particular front.

02:05:29   - Yeah, I mostly agree that the materials change

02:05:31   is a red herring here.

02:05:33   Apple is able to, has been able to, and currently is able to

02:05:37   make a good entry-level computers that are higher quality that feel better

02:05:41   because they're made of aluminum

02:05:43   and you know again we have a roast-tinted glasses for the price points of the old

02:05:47   things

02:05:48   apple is totally capable of making entry-level ones with the current

02:05:51   aluminum glass thing and they do and some of them are actually pretty good

02:05:55   alright grant avery asks i'm curious to know what is your daily carry

02:05:58   on my person uh... in my left front pocket i have keys i have uh... listerine

02:06:05   what are breath mint sort of things,

02:06:08   I forget what they're called.

02:06:09   - Those little like strip things?

02:06:10   - Yeah, yeah, cool mint is my flavor of choice.

02:06:13   What else do I have in here?

02:06:15   Oh, I have a, I have eye drops,

02:06:18   Sustain Ultra eye drops because I wear hard contacts

02:06:21   for reasons that are not terribly interesting

02:06:23   and so my eyes get dry on a not terribly irregular basis.

02:06:27   In my right front pocket, iPhone 7,

02:06:30   in matte black in the little change pocket,

02:06:32   Burt's Bees lip balm.

02:06:34   In the right back pocket, a very small wallet.

02:06:36   I don't recall what the name is off the top of my head.

02:06:39   In the left back pocket, a field notes.

02:06:41   Oh, and also in right front pocket,

02:06:43   a blue Pilot Precise V5 pen.

02:06:47   And also in my left front pocket lately are my AirPods,

02:06:50   which I freaking love.

02:06:51   And that's it for my on-person everyday carry.

02:06:54   - Is that all? - John.

02:06:55   Yeah, that's it, John.

02:06:56   - Oh my God, you can't.

02:06:58   - I don't carry anything in any of my pants pockets.

02:07:01   (laughing)

02:07:03   - Yeah, you carry the whole world with you, Casey.

02:07:05   Although to be fair, John puts all that in his wallet.

02:07:08   (laughing)

02:07:08   - That's so true.

02:07:09   - When I go to work, I have my wallet with me,

02:07:13   but during the day, it is not in any of my pockets.

02:07:15   And nothing is in any of my pockets.

02:07:16   - 'Cause it doesn't fit.

02:07:18   - No, it would fit fine in the front pocket.

02:07:20   I do wear my badge at work,

02:07:22   like to badge in and out of doors and stuff,

02:07:24   and that's clipped to my belt on a little stretchy

02:07:26   thingamabobber to reach the door things.

02:07:29   But that's the only thing that's on,

02:07:31   Even when I go to meetings and stuff,

02:07:33   I don't even take my phone with me.

02:07:34   - Wow, that's intense.

02:07:36   I don't know how many pockets I went through,

02:07:38   but I'm pretty sure I went through only four.

02:07:39   I just went back and forth on a few,

02:07:41   but the chat room is indicating to me

02:07:42   I have about 87 pockets, so if that's the case, my bad.

02:07:45   Grant Avery also asked,

02:07:47   "And secondarily, your personal bag setups,

02:07:49   "as in what do each of you use to carry your things

02:07:53   "for day-to-day use as well as travel?"

02:07:55   I am in love with Tom Bihn bags,

02:07:58   and in the show notes I've already linked

02:08:00   my review of the Tom Bihn Cadet, which is my laptop bag.

02:08:02   I also have a co-pilot, which is my kind of murse

02:08:06   for when I'm traveling light.

02:08:08   And in the review of the Tom Bihn Cadet,

02:08:11   I talk about the things that I carry in that bag.

02:08:13   If you ever have a little bit of extra money to spend,

02:08:17   I cannot recommend enough that Tom Bihn is phenomenal.

02:08:22   Marco, your laptop bag if you are, say, traveling

02:08:25   to Dub-Dub or something along those lines.

02:08:27   I use a backpack from Waterfield Designs,

02:08:31   whose name I completely forget,

02:08:33   but they only make two backpacks,

02:08:35   and it's the smaller of the two.

02:08:36   Yeah, they're fantastic.

02:08:40   That's sfbags.com, that's how you know.

02:08:42   And whenever I do anything that involved

02:08:47   carrying a laptop or iPad or anything else anywhere,

02:08:50   I use a backpack, and I use that backpack,

02:08:52   and it's amazing, that's it.

02:08:53   It's full of dongles now.

02:08:55   - Of course it is, Jon.

02:08:57   I'm a backpack person, I always have been.

02:08:59   My current one I think is an LL Bean thing.

02:09:01   I basically use the backpacks until they wear out.

02:09:04   And in my backpack is all my stuff.

02:09:06   I've got my phone, my wallet, iOS charging cables and crap, thumb drives, all sorts of

02:09:12   -- it's not even that heavy because there's mostly nothing in it.

02:09:15   I'll put a hat and gloves in there in the colder weather and stuff like that.

02:09:20   But yeah, basically that's it.

02:09:21   It's a backpack.

02:09:22   If you've seen me at WWDC, you've probably seen me wearing a backpack and that's what

02:09:26   what I do.

02:09:27   - Martin Schleid asks, "Do you think Pro hardware

02:09:29   "should be made to last, and does that include

02:09:31   "upgradeability in your opinion?"

02:09:34   (sighs)

02:09:35   Yes, it should be made to last.

02:09:37   No, it does not by necessity mean upgradeability.

02:09:39   Jon.

02:09:40   - Same answer.

02:09:42   - Marco.

02:09:43   - Yeah, the same really.

02:09:44   Upgradeability is nice when you can offer it,

02:09:46   but the market tends to vote against it

02:09:48   in a lot of things like laptops.

02:09:50   It's more important in desktops where not only

02:09:53   will they likely have a longer life due to less

02:09:55   physical stress and everything, but also there's more room

02:09:59   for it in desktops to have doors and ports

02:10:01   and things with slots, whereas in laptops,

02:10:04   I think it's understandable that they're getting

02:10:07   effectively un-upgradable recently.

02:10:09   It's unfortunate for price perspective,

02:10:11   but it's understandable in laptops.

02:10:12   Desktops, it's less justified.

02:10:16   - He also asks, "Do you upgrade your hardware

02:10:18   "or do you generally buy an entire new package?"

02:10:20   Similar to what Mark was just saying,

02:10:22   I do upgrade hardware when it's a desktop.

02:10:25   We have talked on the show in the past about my woes

02:10:27   with OWC RAM, which are now fixed.

02:10:31   So I have 32 gigs of RAM in my iMac,

02:10:34   but when it comes to laptops,

02:10:35   I basically buy something as is,

02:10:37   since basically that's your only choice anyway.

02:10:39   Marco.

02:10:40   - I don't upgrade much anymore,

02:10:42   'cause almost everything I buy from Apple now

02:10:44   can't be upgraded.

02:10:46   The iMac, I maxed out the RAM when I got it

02:10:48   to avoid KC's OWC issue.

02:10:51   (both laughing)

02:10:52   And that's the only thing I think

02:10:54   I really even can upgrade about this iMac, so there you go.

02:10:57   - Jon.

02:10:58   - I upgrade when possible.

02:11:00   I mean, this Mac Pro has had like three graphics cards,

02:11:02   tons of different RAMs, tons of different hard drives in it.

02:11:05   So yeah, I think I am an upgrader,

02:11:06   but like Marco said, so few things can be upgraded anymore,

02:11:09   then I'm buying new stuff all the time.

02:11:12   - Brian Haugen asks, "Are you still playing

02:11:14   "Desert Golfing or Altos of Denture,

02:11:15   "and what level on each?"

02:11:17   I've never ever played Desert Golfing,

02:11:19   and I've played Altos of Denture like once,

02:11:21   so I have no answer for this.

02:11:22   Marco.

02:11:24   I don't play much anymore with desert golfing.

02:11:26   At Alstor's Adventure, I played that kind of playing once

02:11:28   and that was it.

02:11:29   Desert golfing, I got somewhere in the thousands,

02:11:31   like 3,000 or something and got frustrated

02:11:34   and started back at the beginning for peace reasons.

02:11:37   And I'm currently up at 1,500,

02:11:39   but again, I don't play that much.

02:11:41   So sorry, that was the count.

02:11:43   648 is the whole number.

02:11:45   - Oh, I was gonna say you lapped me.

02:11:47   Desert golfing, I'm in the mid-1000s.

02:11:50   I haven't played in ages

02:11:51   and I probably don't think I'd go back to Alstor's Adventure.

02:11:53   I played it until I unlocked everything.

02:11:55   This was back when the game was new before they started adding all these other things.

02:11:57   So basically I unlocked everything and also after the point where I realized the amount

02:12:03   of time that I would need to invest to catch my friends who have high scores is more than

02:12:08   I'm willing to put in.

02:12:09   So I did clear it out and I did get the good character and I did spend some time doing

02:12:12   some high score runs with that but then bailed.

02:12:14   And that was a long time ago.

02:12:15   I still play it every once in a while, especially the zen mode with no scoring where you just

02:12:19   hang out and do it.

02:12:20   I do that occasionally.

02:12:21   All right.

02:12:23   Tohaha Said said, "What technologies outside of the Apple-centric ones excite you these

02:12:27   days?

02:12:28   This could be different server-side language, some camera sensor technology, or a concept

02:12:31   like functional languages."

02:12:32   I just did a five-part series on RxSwift, which is reactive programming on my blog.

02:12:39   It is really frickin' cool, and I really like it.

02:12:42   And it's sort of functional-ish, but it's both more and less than that, so that's my

02:12:49   answer.

02:12:50   John.

02:12:51   I think probably I'm still looking at OLED TVs. I am excited about them and I can't wait for them to mature and settle down.

02:13:02   And so that's probably the tech that I'm mostly looking at these days outside of the Apple stuff.

02:13:08   Marco.

02:13:09   Electric cars. They're amazing and keep getting better.

02:13:13   Fair enough. Let's see. Pretty much the entire internet asks, "What would it take for us to ditch the Mac for something else to be better?"

02:13:20   something else to be better.

02:13:21   I don't mean that to be flippant, I'm being serious.

02:13:23   Nothing else is better.

02:13:24   If something else gets better, then I'll switch.

02:13:26   Marco.

02:13:27   - Yeah, about the same.

02:13:28   I mean, the Mac would have to get really unusable

02:13:32   for the kinds of things I do,

02:13:34   and something else would have to be good enough

02:13:36   to get me to switch.

02:13:37   And honestly, even with Apple's current rate of neglect,

02:13:41   I don't see that happening for a long time.

02:13:43   - Jon?

02:13:44   - It would take more than something being better,

02:13:46   because it would have to be better by a lot,

02:13:47   - And I almost think for me,

02:13:49   it would require Apple to stop making Macs.

02:13:51   Like, I mean, because-- - Yeah, like they would have

02:13:53   to like push us out. - Just having something better

02:13:56   wouldn't make me switch,

02:13:57   because my switching costs would be so huge, right?

02:13:59   It would have to be phenomenally better,

02:14:01   that could make me switch,

02:14:02   or basically Apple pushes us out,

02:14:05   and then like whether there's something better or not,

02:14:06   tough luck.

02:14:08   - All right, thanks for our three sponsors this week,

02:14:09   Cocoa Conf, Audible, and Casper,

02:14:12   and we will see you next week.

02:14:14   (upbeat music)

02:14:16   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

02:14:21   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:14:24   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

02:14:27   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:14:32   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:14:34   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

02:14:37   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:14:42   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

02:14:47   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:14:51   So that's Kasey Liszt, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:14:56   Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C

02:15:01   USA, Syracuse

02:15:03   It's accidental

02:15:06   They didn't mean to

02:15:09   Accidental

02:15:11   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

02:15:15   - Now we can have the shortest after show ever.

02:15:19   - All right, yeah, we should make it quick.

02:15:20   LaserSailor asks, as a bonus Q&A question,

02:15:23   in so many words, does Tina's new accord support CarPlay?

02:15:27   I did not even think to ask you this.

02:15:29   I am so jealous of people who have CarPlay.

02:15:32   Does it support CarPlay, and if so, have you tried it?

02:15:35   - We talked about it in the after show

02:15:37   of yesterday's slash last week's episode.

02:15:40   I didn't know yesterday and I still don't know today.

02:15:43   - You're the worst.

02:15:45   - That's true, like we were in the car today

02:15:47   and I was telling her, I changed a bunch of settings

02:15:49   and everything to like match my car 'cause,

02:15:52   you know, so it's a similar experience.

02:15:54   By the way, the UI problem we currently have with the car

02:15:56   is that we're the same generation,

02:15:59   but like two or three model years apart,

02:16:02   the keys, the key fob things look and feel exactly identical.

02:16:06   So I need to get some kind of like textured, rubbery,

02:16:09   a stickery thing on one of them so I can feel in my pocket

02:16:12   and figure out which the hell key fob I need to press

02:16:14   the button on, that is a big problem.

02:16:17   But anyway, as far as I can tell, her infotainment system

02:16:20   actually is about the same as mine, and that makes me think

02:16:23   it doesn't support CarPlay, but honestly, I haven't looked

02:16:26   it up yet, so I don't know.

02:16:28   - How do you not know this?

02:16:29   Oh my lord, that's stunning.

02:16:32   Any other thoughts? - So Tiff just got a new car

02:16:34   delivered about a half hour before the show started tonight,

02:16:39   And it does have, I think, I haven't confirmed it yet,

02:16:42   'cause I literally only had time to reprogram

02:16:46   the HomeLink transmitter and bring it into the garage

02:16:48   before the show, but we ordered it with the new

02:16:52   BMW implementation of wireless CarPlay.

02:16:55   I think they're the first manufacturer to get this.

02:16:58   Apple has been weirdly quiet about its existence,

02:17:01   but it does have wireless CarPlay,

02:17:03   and that's probably gonna be awesome.

02:17:06   and that is part of the reason why we got this car.

02:17:10   It was a pretty big driver because I need

02:17:13   CarPlay testing hardware that's a real car,

02:17:16   so I get some kind of feel for it sometimes.

02:17:17   And I think it's gonna be a very long time

02:17:19   before Tesla ever adds it, if ever,

02:17:23   because their relationship with Apple is not great,

02:17:24   and their level of care about their media system

02:17:27   is also not great.

02:17:29   So that's probably, I don't wanna hold my breath

02:17:32   on that one.

02:17:34   but it's nice to have a car that has it.

02:17:36   Oh, Tiff just confirmed via message

02:17:38   that it does indeed have CarPlay.

02:17:40   She used it on the way home from the dealer

02:17:41   from picking it up, so that's cool.

02:17:43   Yep, so that's gonna be cool. - Oh, so jealous.

02:17:45   - I'm looking forward to playing with that,

02:17:46   and it'll be nice as a developer of a CarPlay app

02:17:50   to finally not have to rely on everyone else

02:17:52   to tell me all the bugs.

02:17:54   - What did she get?

02:17:54   She got a 340 GT, is that right?

02:17:56   - That's right.

02:17:57   - Awesome, all right, any other thoughts?

02:17:59   - Her review of it so far is it is faster,

02:18:02   and it has nicer stitching.

02:18:04   (laughing)

02:18:05   Both of which are true.

02:18:07   - Steering, steering any better?

02:18:09   - I don't know. - Oh, good question.

02:18:10   - Hey, Tiff, is the steering any better?

02:18:12   Are you listening?

02:18:14   Yeah, 'cause she noticed immediately

02:18:16   when she got the other one that the steering

02:18:17   was kinda numb and not great.

02:18:19   So I'm curious about that as well.

02:18:22   - All right, well, we'll give her a chance to answer.

02:18:23   I will say that if anyone on this Earth

02:18:26   would notice whether or not the stitching was better.

02:18:28   - She says it feels different.

02:18:29   The steering feels different.

02:18:31   That's probably good.

02:18:32   If anyone would know whether or not the stitching

02:18:34   was better, it would be Tiffany Arment.

02:18:36   And so that is probably high praise if it's better.

02:18:39   - Nevermind, she says the steering wheel feels different,

02:18:42   like just the wheel itself.

02:18:44   Like the texture of the wheel, not the actual steering.

02:18:47   Tiff, you wanna just come in here?

02:18:51   Where are you?

02:18:53   She's telling me all this by eye-messaging.

02:18:54   - She's probably in bed.

02:18:56   God, don't make her come all the way downstairs.

02:18:58   - Here she is.

02:18:59   (laughs)

02:19:01   Hey, come on over, grab your headphones.

02:19:04   - Hey dudes.

02:19:05   - Hey lady, I have a question for you and Tina by proxy.

02:19:10   Can you please convince Erin that it's time

02:19:12   for her to get a new car?

02:19:13   Because she loves her car more than she loves me

02:19:15   and it's time to replace it.

02:19:17   - Erin, it's time to get a new car.

02:19:18   You can love other cars.

02:19:19   - She doesn't listen to this show, are you kidding me?

02:19:22   So when we see each other, you need to work on her please.

02:19:24   I'll give you a whole American dollar.

02:19:26   - Why wouldn't you want a new car?

02:19:28   - That's all I gotta say. - She loves that car so much.

02:19:31   So, all kidding aside, how is your new car?

02:19:34   How is the steering?

02:19:35   How is the speed?

02:19:36   How is the car play?

02:19:37   Tell me everything.

02:19:38   - It's new and it's faster

02:19:41   and the steering wheel feels smoother and thicker.

02:19:45   (laughs)

02:19:47   The lights are a little bit brighter, so that's good.

02:19:50   - The headlights or the interior lights?

02:19:52   I'm not trying to be funny, I'm genuinely asking.

02:19:54   - All of the lights, but mostly the headlights

02:19:56   because they're LED now instead of the--

02:19:57   - Oh, interesting, okay.

02:19:59   - Yeah, so they actually-- - That's probably adjustable

02:20:00   with some setting.

02:20:01   - They actually are brighter,

02:20:02   and it has a wider spread, I guess, of the headlights.

02:20:07   And yeah, other than that, it's pretty much the same.

02:20:14   I can change the color of my interior mood lighting

02:20:17   from either amber-- - What, is it disgusting?

02:20:19   - Yeah, it's either amber or it's white.

02:20:21   It glows down from various areas of the car,

02:20:24   like an airplane.

02:20:26   And let's see, what else does it do?

02:20:29   Oh, when we did the car play thing,

02:20:31   when Jared was hooking it up, he's our car guy.

02:20:33   He, (laughs)

02:20:36   - AKA a salesman at the car dealership

02:20:37   that we dealt with a lot.

02:20:38   - You know, it has like the typical messages and mail

02:20:42   and you know, all that kind of stuff.

02:20:43   And then you swipe over and there's overcast.

02:20:46   So that was pretty neat.

02:20:47   - Aw, look at that.

02:20:48   - Hopps is giving us the most et tu, brute look possible.

02:20:51   He stuck outside the office and now his whole family

02:20:54   is in here except him.

02:20:55   and he's just staring pathetically.

02:20:58   - Aw, he does look so sad.

02:21:00   - I'm gonna go let him in, hold on.

02:21:01   - Everyone's coming in,

02:21:02   get him a little pair of headphones.

02:21:03   - Yeah, put hops in the pot again.

02:21:06   It's got a lot to say.

02:21:07   Sounds a lot like slurping, but you know.

02:21:09   - And-- - You do what you gotta do.

02:21:11   - So my seats have little white stitching on them,

02:21:14   and from what I could tell, possibly the console would,

02:21:17   whatever the heck it is, looks a little bit more

02:21:20   naughty than normal.

02:21:24   I don't know, everything's in the dark.

02:21:25   I picked up a car at night in the winter

02:21:28   and I couldn't see anything.

02:21:29   I couldn't even tell what color it was.

02:21:32   They're like, oh trust me, it's blue.

02:21:33   It looks black, but it's blue.

02:21:34   I'm like, okay, I guess I have to trust you

02:21:36   because there's no more light.

02:21:37   There's no lights.

02:21:38   - I had to go outside with a really bright LED flashlight

02:21:41   and shine it on the paint to confirm

02:21:42   that it was the right color.

02:21:44   - I don't even know if the interior's the right color.

02:21:46   I have no idea.

02:21:47   It's just been dark.

02:21:49   - Yeah, normally we wouldn't do this,

02:21:50   but our hectic holiday scheduling has resulted

02:21:53   and us having to pick up the car today or tomorrow morning.

02:21:56   And so we chose to do it tonight, but yeah, in retrospect,

02:21:59   don't pick up a car in the dark.

02:22:01   - Now, are you traveling tomorrow?

02:22:03   I don't recall.

02:22:04   - Yeah, yeah.

02:22:06   - Are you taking the Tesla or are you taking the new car?

02:22:09   - Oh, we're not taking my car.

02:22:10   The Tesla has more trunk space.

02:22:12   It has double trunk.

02:22:13   - Ah, right, the frunk.

02:22:14   - The Tesla has more trunk space than your hunchback BMW.

02:22:19   - Yes, 'cause there's two trunks.

02:22:21   - Although, to be fair--

02:22:21   - It's like, well, why get the hunchback?

02:22:23   Why are you doing this to her, Marco?

02:22:24   - I want the Hunchback. - I tried.

02:22:26   - I like it.

02:22:26   It's in case I need to-- - You like the Hunchback?

02:22:28   - Yeah, I like it a lot.

02:22:29   It's in case I need to buy a chair at HomeGoods.

02:22:31   I can get it home. - Oh, all right.

02:22:32   'Cause it's an antiquing conveyance vehicle.

02:22:35   - I've never, in the last three years,

02:22:37   I haven't bought a chair at HomeGoods,

02:22:39   but when I do, I'm ready for it.

02:22:41   - You'll be ready.

02:22:42   - Well, and also, I believe you all, SuperTIFF,

02:22:45   prefer a narrower car, 'cause my car is a lot wider.

02:22:51   It's like the next size up, it's like the seven series

02:22:53   S-Class equivalent size, rather than hers is more

02:22:56   like an extended three series.

02:22:59   - Sure, sounds good.

02:23:01   No, I like the way the back opens up.

02:23:02   I don't like a typical trunk anymore.

02:23:04   I mean, I just don't.

02:23:05   - Which my car doesn't have.

02:23:06   - No, and your car doesn't have it, but it's bigger.

02:23:09   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:23:10   The main reason why you chose this, I believe,

02:23:14   as we figured it out over the last few months was--

02:23:16   - I decided not to make a choice, that's why I chose this.

02:23:18   - Yeah, it was mostly in action.

02:23:20   the lease was ending, we had to get something,

02:23:21   let's just get the same thing.

02:23:22   'Cause it's nice to have both kinds of cars sometimes.

02:23:25   - And you wanted CarPlay to test your app.

02:23:27   That's what you said, you were like,

02:23:28   well you need to get this car so I can test my app.

02:23:31   And I said okay.

02:23:32   - That's basically it, yeah.

02:23:33   (laughing)

02:23:34   - So yeah, I picked it up tonight, it was good.

02:23:37   Oh, and the sound system's much better.

02:23:39   The radio--

02:23:40   - Did you get the Harman Kardon?

02:23:41   - Yeah, I think I did.

02:23:42   - No, I don't think--

02:23:44   - He was talking about something, I got something.

02:23:45   - Go outside with a flashlight, see what you got.

02:23:47   (laughing)

02:23:48   - I don't know, he was saying that I got

02:23:50   the good sound system, whatever it is.

02:23:51   Sounds really good.

02:23:52   - The Harman Kardon, in my car anyway, is phenomenal.

02:23:55   So if you got the Harman Kardon,

02:23:57   it would not surprise me if you were also impressed.

02:23:59   Or I don't even know if it's Harman Kardon anymore,

02:24:00   but that's what it was when my car was new.

02:24:03   - Yeah, well all the options were different this time.

02:24:05   So it was kinda hard.

02:24:07   Like the reason why the interior trim is different

02:24:09   is because the entire option set changed

02:24:11   between the first one, the shorter one, and this one.

02:24:15   So everything is very slightly different.

02:24:18   As far as I can tell, it all feels pretty good

02:24:21   'cause it was dark and I can't really see it yet.

02:24:24   So I'll see it in the morning.

02:24:25   - You did not get an M Sport

02:24:27   because you could not get the correct color,

02:24:29   is that correct?

02:24:30   - I think so, yeah.

02:24:31   - Yep, that's right.

02:24:32   'Cause you want, Tiff gets the dark blue

02:24:34   and the M Sport is only available in the KC Blue.

02:24:37   - It's the same color that I always get my nails painted.

02:24:39   So, you know.

02:24:41   - At least you match.

02:24:42   - Gotta have your car matching your nails.

02:24:43   (laughs)

02:24:44   - Right. - Duh.

02:24:45   - When was that in, go out in 60 seconds,

02:24:47   Isn't that how they started the HemiCuda?

02:24:49   - Go on in 60 seconds.

02:24:51   - Is that what I said?

02:24:52   Anyway, in go on in 60 seconds with Mario,

02:24:56   the HemiCuda, I believe,

02:25:01   Angelina Jolie knew that it was a woman's car

02:25:03   because she had lipstick, maybe that's what it was,

02:25:06   that matched the color of the car that she found in the car.

02:25:10   Good story.

02:25:11   And then I found $5, it was amazing.

02:25:12   Anyway, congrats on your new car.

02:25:14   - Thanks.

02:25:15   - And that's really exciting.

02:25:16   - Thank you very much.

02:25:17   - I'm very excited, it's a Christmas present.

02:25:19   'Cause here's Christmas.

02:25:20   - Yeah, so are we going to see that car

02:25:22   or another car when we all meet up?

02:25:24   - You'll probably see the Tesla.

02:25:28   We take it everywhere.

02:25:29   - He has to come so his Tesla can dominate Underscore Tesla.

02:25:32   - It's the same car. - So the same Tesla.

02:25:34   - The exact same model, just mine's red and his is blue.

02:25:36   That's it.

02:25:37   - Are you gonna be able to plug in over there?

02:25:38   - Yeah, yeah, just not as quickly as here,

02:25:41   but it's close enough.

02:25:42   Yeah, anyway.

02:25:44   - Well, it's like there are superchargers and stuff.

02:25:46   - Yeah, well and like on a long trip like that,

02:25:49   basically if I'm going to be driving most of the time

02:25:52   or all of the time, I want it to be in my car.

02:25:55   For trips where that doesn't make sense,

02:25:58   like the Long Island thing where we're gonna

02:26:00   have you leave at parts and I was worried about discharging,

02:26:02   like fine, we'll take this car.

02:26:03   But for the most part, if I'm driving a long trip,

02:26:06   I wanna be driving it in my car.

02:26:07   And auto drive is pretty nice.

02:26:09   - But then you're not even driving.

02:26:10   - I think you guys would totally die

02:26:12   if you knew how low my mileage was when I dropped it off.

02:26:16   - Let me just say that the dealership is pretty excited.

02:26:18   (laughing)

02:26:21   - So how many miles did you have in your car

02:26:23   after three years?

02:26:24   - Under 10,000.

02:26:26   - Whoa, are you freaking kidding me?

02:26:28   - Just, it was just, it's just under.

02:26:31   - Holy God.

02:26:31   - Yeah, I drive upstate sometimes.

02:26:35   But mostly it's like around here.

02:26:37   - Are you sure?

02:26:38   - Yeah.

02:26:39   - Are you sure?

02:26:40   - But that's only like 400 miles a pop.

02:26:42   So, I mean, I don't go that often, twice a year.

02:26:46   - I have no words. - You'd have to consider

02:26:48   going out for chicken salad every day.

02:26:49   - I know, yeah, I don't even go out for chicken salad.

02:26:52   Although now I'm driving to the driving range.

02:26:55   So there's like two more miles a week.

02:26:59   - Big spender, big spender.

02:27:00   - I walk, I'm good for the environment,

02:27:05   and I'm also good for the BMW dealership.

02:27:07   - I'm good for the environment.

02:27:08   I'm good for the environment,

02:27:09   which is the owner of a brand new 340.

02:27:11   - That came over on a ship from a different country.

02:27:15   - That came over on a ship, yeah, exactly.

02:27:17   - Carbon neutral, no kidding.

02:27:18   - Fun fact, I actually did work with a company

02:27:22   based out of Helsinki that would take

02:27:24   hyper-accurate ocean current patterns,

02:27:26   and they would integrate that with navigation systems.

02:27:30   So if you're a cargo ship going from, say,

02:27:33   I don't know, Germany to the United States,

02:27:35   and you would look at the ocean currents,

02:27:38   you would say, "Oh, you know, this ocean current that's like 20, 30, 50, 100 miles north of

02:27:42   where I really want to be, but it's a current that's running, you know, 10 knots east to

02:27:47   west, which is the direction I'm traveling, I could save 11 deep billion gallons of fuel

02:27:54   if I ride this current." And so that's what they would do.

02:27:56   That's awesome.

02:27:57   Yeah, so it actually could be not terribly environmentally friendly, but not terribly

02:28:04   environmentally hostile either, going from Germany to here on a ship. You never know.

02:28:09   The internet says my wife's new car is carplay compatible, and the internet would know, right?

02:28:16   Everything on the internet is true, Jon.

02:28:18   All right, now it is. It's officially Aaron's turn to get a new car.

02:28:21   Oh, God, I wish. We actually saw an X5M when we were out doing our tacky light tour earlier,

02:28:27   and I was kind of doing the "eh, eh," and she gave me the most serious and angry side-eye

02:28:32   I've ever seen in my life.

02:28:34   - Well, she wants a Mazda 6, like her current Mazda 6.

02:28:39   Whatever Mazda's line is right now,

02:28:41   an X5M is not that.

02:28:43   That is a giant SUV that is also very expensive.

02:28:47   But it's a giant.

02:28:48   I can't imagine Erin ever agreeing

02:28:51   to replace her beloved Mazda 6 full-size sedan

02:28:55   with a giant expensive BMW SUV.

02:28:58   - Why isn't she asking another Mazda?

02:29:00   - Well, I think that, left to her own devices,

02:29:03   I think she would either get another six,

02:29:04   to your guys' point, or I think she would be okay

02:29:07   with the Grand Cherokee, and I know that you guys

02:29:09   are probably not fans of Grand Cherokees,

02:29:10   but she has always liked them.

02:29:12   Of course, I want her to get an SRT-8.

02:29:14   She has no interest in that, but that's what,

02:29:17   if I were to wager a guess, I would say a new Grand Cherokee.

02:29:19   That being said, she saw a Volvo, what is it, XC90,

02:29:24   whatever, no, not the S, XC90, the SUV,

02:29:28   and she saw that outside of Costco and said

02:29:29   that she thought that that was pretty good looking,

02:29:31   so there's a prayer.

02:29:33   - Well, have you taken her car shopping yet?

02:29:34   Have you been like, "Erin, we're going car shopping

02:29:36   "and you are going to go where you wanna go."

02:29:40   Not where I wanna go. - I've begged, I've begged.

02:29:42   - Make it even better. - I've begged.

02:29:43   - Erin, I will watch the kid while you go car shopping.

02:29:47   - Oh, but she, I understand what you're driving at here,

02:29:50   but she doesn't have any interest in replacing her Mazda.

02:29:52   She'll replace the Mazda when it falls apart.

02:29:54   - I know, I think you know what you have to do.

02:29:56   (laughs)

02:29:57   - I have to sabotage her car.

02:29:59   - Saboteur. (laughs)

02:30:01   - Oh God, it's like Star Trek 6, am I right?

02:30:03   Am I right, Jon, am I right?

02:30:05   - I blocked that one out.

02:30:06   Real time follow up from my wife, she says only the EX.

02:30:09   Only the EX trim level has CarPlay,

02:30:10   so now the car is back to not having CarPlay.

02:30:13   - Aw, see the internet was wrong.

02:30:15   This is the first time ever.

02:30:16   - It's a two day old car, we haven't looked into it yet.

02:30:18   We'll see.

02:30:19   - Tiff, did your car have a bow on it

02:30:20   when you got delivery?

02:30:21   - No, it should have, or maybe it did

02:30:23   and I just didn't see it 'cause it was dark.

02:30:25   - It's too dark.

02:30:26   (laughing)

02:30:29   That's disappointing.

02:30:30   - I know, it's around Christmas and everything too.

02:30:32   They should have at least had a bow.

02:30:32   - Right?

02:30:33   - I think in exchange for your trade-in

02:30:35   that had no miles on it,

02:30:36   they could have at least given us a giant bow.

02:30:37   - I know, for crying out loud.

02:30:39   They just extended my other lease because we were lazy.

02:30:41   Forgot to re-up on our car.

02:30:44   (laughing)

02:30:46   - Aye, aye, aye.

02:30:47   All right, I think we should all go to bed.

02:30:49   Any other thoughts, Tiff, before you disappear?

02:30:51   - Vroom, I don't know.

02:30:54   That's all I got. - Nice.

02:30:55   - Oh, oh, my thought is when I started my car

02:30:57   in the presence of Marco in the garage,

02:30:59   'cause usually when I'm driving my car,

02:31:01   when I was taking my old car out into the pasture

02:31:04   where I was taking it, I realized how loud it was.

02:31:08   I was very surprised. - Oh, God, it's ruined.

02:31:09   - 'Cause he had the door open,

02:31:11   and so normally I'm just in the car starting at myself

02:31:14   and backing out and leaving, and yeah, it's pretty loud.

02:31:18   - I bet it sounds great, though, seriously.

02:31:20   - It does, but it's loud.

02:31:22   I think definitely my next car

02:31:23   is going to be an electric car.

02:31:25   - Ugh, of course. - I feel like this will be

02:31:27   my last gas car.

02:31:29   (door slams)

02:31:30   Didn't we have a question for Tiff about AirPods,

02:31:33   maybe how they fit or something like that?

02:31:35   Maybe this was last episode.

02:31:36   But I feel like we wanted to ask Tiff something,

02:31:38   but Marco, you had said that she had just gotten her hands

02:31:41   on the AirPods.

02:31:42   - Yeah, so what do you think?

02:31:43   - Yeah, I wore them last night

02:31:44   while you guys were recording.

02:31:46   And they're much more comfortable,

02:31:49   and I wanted to wear them mainly

02:31:51   because I've been wearing my glasses for the last few days

02:31:53   'cause I've had these eye drops that I can't wear my contacts

02:31:56   So wearing like over the ear headphones is pretty horrible.

02:32:01   Just moves them, it gets, oh it's just so uncomfortable.

02:32:04   So anyway, so I went to the AirPods

02:32:06   and they were pretty good.

02:32:07   After a while they did start to hurt a little bit,

02:32:11   but I think that that's with any in ear earbud

02:32:14   kind of thing does that.

02:32:15   And it was really nice that I could just walk away from,

02:32:20   'cause I had it paired to the Apple TV last night.

02:32:22   So I was walking around the house doing laundry

02:32:25   and getting stuff out of the car and going upstairs

02:32:28   and the range was really far.

02:32:31   I mean, you know our house

02:32:32   and I made it pretty much to the other side of the house

02:32:35   and it only just started clipping.

02:32:38   - Well, to the laundry room, it's a hike.

02:32:39   - Yeah, yeah, it only just started clipping

02:32:41   all the way over there or upstairs.

02:32:42   So that was pretty impressive.

02:32:45   And it was kind of nice being able to listen to the movie

02:32:47   I was watching anywhere in the house

02:32:50   and then come back and be like, oh yeah.

02:32:52   'Cause they were just in my ear,

02:32:53   I wasn't tethered to anything.

02:32:54   and but it was in my ear in a way that it was so discreet,

02:32:58   kind of like a little Bluetooth set, you know?

02:33:00   But so that was nice.

02:33:02   That's a very positive thing to say about them.

02:33:04   - Ear pods don't have to hurt by the way.

02:33:05   They don't hurt my ears no matter how long I wear them.

02:33:07   So it just depends on what shape your ear is, I think.

02:33:09   - Oh, well then there you go.

02:33:10   I have slightly hurting ears.

02:33:12   They don't fall out, but they do hurt after a while.

02:33:15   But I just feel like anything in my ear hurts after a while.

02:33:18   - How many times did you watch Claymation Christmas

02:33:20   back to back, my goodness?

02:33:21   - Oh, I don't know.

02:33:24   Tiff is not a fan.

02:33:26   -I mean, I have memories of it, but no.

02:33:29   No. -You're missing out.

02:33:31   -No.

02:33:32   (beeping)