199: 10,000 Hours of Coughing


00:00:00   I'm gonna go to bed and put my Parmesan cheese back in the fridge.

00:00:02   Yeah, good idea.

00:00:03   I would recommend that.

00:00:04   [

00:00:08   and I have a kid, so that's a given, right?

00:00:13   - Every ounce of my being wants to get smug about how,

00:00:15   oh come on, I never get sick.

00:00:16   You must be just weak of immune system,

00:00:20   but I know that I will be paying this price

00:00:23   in two to three years.

00:00:24   - One year, try one year.

00:00:26   - Probably, that's true.

00:00:28   So my office has opened a,

00:00:31   San Francisco, well strictly speaking, an Oakland office,

00:00:35   which I guess is different enough from San Francisco

00:00:37   that people from the area get perturbed

00:00:39   if you confuse the two.

00:00:41   - Those California sensitivities.

00:00:43   - Indeed.

00:00:44   Well, they've opened a Oakland office,

00:00:47   and the other day I was trying to get something accomplished

00:00:50   with one of my coworkers out there,

00:00:53   and he had said, "Oh, I have to go for a long lunch

00:00:56   "because all the executives are in town,

00:00:57   "and so, you know, always on vacation in California,

00:00:59   "blah, blah, blah."

00:01:01   And then I finally caught up with him after his long lunch.

00:01:04   this is already like roughly quitting time for me.

00:01:07   And he says, "Oh, you know what?

00:01:08   I can't do a Google Hangout with you

00:01:11   to work through this issue

00:01:12   because we're all going to the Tesla factory

00:01:14   for a tour right now."

00:01:15   And I'm jealous.

00:01:18   And I wish I could have gone.

00:01:19   And I'm sad.

00:01:20   - They don't get free cars, you know,

00:01:21   they just, you know, see other cars being made.

00:01:24   - I loved the BMW factory tour so much.

00:01:27   It was almost, if not,

00:01:29   it probably was one of the highlights of that trip.

00:01:31   I thought it was phenomenally cool.

00:01:33   Yeah. Did you see the video that I think Greg put on Twitter of the...

00:01:38   It's like a lathe, you know, metal milling machine lathe thing.

00:01:42   Oh my god, yeah, with the coolant coming out the center of it?

00:01:45   No, not that one. He showed it... It was... You know, a lathe is just a thing that spins an item

00:01:49   and usually you bring a tool close to it as it spins and you can shave off parts of it.

00:01:52   But this was a thing where the item spun and also the cutting tool also moved in and out and up and down.

00:01:59   And it was making basically a crankshaft for an engine, which, you know, is not just...

00:02:02   Which you know, I totally miss that. Yeah, it was really cool because it's got you can imagine what a crankshaft looks like

00:02:07   You can't just leave it out. It's not

00:02:09   Rotationally symmetrical so it has to cut all that stuff like it's rotating the piece

00:02:14   Imagine just trying to cut like part of the part of a crankshaft that connects to the piston

00:02:18   Right while it's while the crankshaft is rotating along its normal rotational axis

00:02:22   The thing that cuts the piston it has to trace that to make like it was amazing amazing looking

00:02:27   I don't know if that's how all crankshafts are made

00:02:29   I'm like, "Jesus, if this is what it takes to make one crankshaft, no wonder internal combustion engines cost so much money."

00:02:33   Seriously, was this Greg Koenig?

00:02:36   Yeah.

00:02:36   I am thoroughly intrigued by this, and I follow Greg, so I'm surprised that I didn't notice it when it flew by.

00:02:42   Maybe I declared bankruptcy that day or something.

00:02:44   Fair enough. How's everything else? So Marco's sick, John, you alive?

00:02:49   Yeah, I'm okay. I'm too busy worrying about my children's health.

00:02:53   My son has had a cough for a month now?

00:02:55   Hey.

00:02:56   Somewhere in the middle, more than a month, somewhere in the middle of that, after several

00:02:59   weeks we took him to the doctor and they're like, "No, he doesn't have bronchitis or pneumonia

00:03:03   or any other thing that we can do anything about." And they just gave him an inhaler

00:03:06   and sent him home and it's like he's still coughing so now we're trying Zyrtec, just

00:03:10   like allergy medication, a theory that somehow he's allergic to the change in seasons. I

00:03:16   don't know. Anyway, I spend most of my time worrying about them, but I'm doing fine.

00:03:20   Fisherman's friend.

00:03:21   Oh, is that that cough, like crazy cough drop thing that you like?

00:03:24   - Talking on gross tasting things, Kiera's also cold.

00:03:27   (laughter)

00:03:28   - So, okay, basically, yes, they are my crazy gross

00:03:31   cough drops, the Fisherman's Friend original, you know,

00:03:33   red labeled variety.

00:03:35   You can get them on Amazon even, which is nice.

00:03:38   They basically have like the most menthol

00:03:40   and the least sugar of most cough drops.

00:03:43   The problem with cough drops is basically that

00:03:45   they only really work when they're in your mouth.

00:03:48   Once they're gone, they stop working almost immediately.

00:03:51   But they do work while you still have them.

00:03:54   And so you kind of tend to have a lot of them.

00:03:56   When you're really coughing a lot

00:03:57   and you kind of have to make it all day,

00:03:58   you tend to have a lot of cough drops in one day.

00:04:01   And if you have the regular big square ricola kind

00:04:04   or things like that, your mouth just gets so coated in sugar

00:04:09   it's just disgusting.

00:04:10   Your teeth get all slimy.

00:04:11   It's just really gross in your mouth

00:04:12   after not that long of a time.

00:04:14   Whereas Fisherman's Friend, they're incredibly strong,

00:04:17   like very dense menthol flavor,

00:04:20   and there's a lot less sugar in them.

00:04:21   and they look gross and they taste gross.

00:04:24   But they come in a convenient little,

00:04:27   like a little Ziploc pouch,

00:04:28   so you can just keep that pouch in your pocket

00:04:30   so you don't have to be unwrapping cough drops.

00:04:32   And then what do you do with these two wrappers

00:04:34   that come around each one?

00:04:35   And you have a whole pocket full of spent cough drop wrappers

00:04:39   like it avoids that whole problem too.

00:04:40   So they're good.

00:04:41   - Yeah, a friend of ours, a neighbor/friend,

00:04:47   swore by whatever it is, the fisherman's friend

00:04:49   that I guess you had recommended years ago.

00:04:51   because he has a seasonal cough

00:04:53   that just won't go away for months.

00:04:55   And yeah, he told me that it's the real deal,

00:04:57   that those are the only things that can get him from hack,

00:05:00   to keep him from hacking constantly.

00:05:02   - Yeah, I mean, it's just menthol cough drops.

00:05:04   There's no secret ingredient.

00:05:05   It's menthol cough drops.

00:05:07   But menthol works.

00:05:08   And as far as I can tell from the basic research

00:05:11   I did a couple years ago,

00:05:13   there doesn't seem to be any kind of horrible side effect

00:05:15   to using a bunch of menthol cough drops when you have a cough

00:05:18   so it seems like it's a pretty good bet.

00:05:21   It is very effective.

00:05:22   When you have this kind of bronchial irritation,

00:05:25   nothing else really works to stop it.

00:05:28   Like treating it with an inhaler and things

00:05:31   can solve the long-term problem,

00:05:33   but if you are coughing, over-the-counter stuff

00:05:35   like DXM syrup does not really affect this kind of cough.

00:05:38   So yeah, I'm an expert in coughing in the last few years.

00:05:41   Only in the winter.

00:05:44   - 10,000 hours is all it takes, right?

00:05:45   Just 10,000 hours of coughing.

00:05:46   (laughing)

00:05:49   - I'll get there, give me a few more years.

00:05:50   Yeah, yeah, all right, so this is the video John yeah, so if you go to like you know

00:05:54   The three quarters of the way done is starting to take shape is what you really want to see is how does it carve out?

00:05:58   The little parts that connect to the pistons because those aren't along the rotational axis

00:06:02   And then you see the thing rotating in the tool at the same time. It's it's crazy

00:06:07   Oh my I mean you just want to watch the whole video

00:06:09   Can be kind of meditative to watch a 15-minute video of machine building another part of a machine god. That's intense

00:06:16   "Wow, that is pretty damn cool.

00:06:18   "I want one of these for no reason, just I want it."

00:06:22   - I think it's bigger than your house.

00:06:23   - Oh, I'm sure it is.

00:06:24   There's no doubt in my mind that it is,

00:06:25   but I kind of want it.

00:06:26   God, think of all the cool things

00:06:27   I would never be able to figure out how to build.

00:06:29   This is why Greg just has one of the niftiest jobs

00:06:32   in the world.

00:06:33   - This is what, when you're a software developer,

00:06:36   anybody who builds physical objects just blows your mind.

00:06:39   - It's so true. - We don't make anything.

00:06:41   We just make bits move around, we make nothing.

00:06:44   And so the physical world baffles us.

00:06:46   It's this mystic world that we don't know

00:06:49   how these things get here.

00:06:50   They just get here and we can complain about them.

00:06:52   - Don't include me in this.

00:06:53   I know how things get here.

00:06:54   I know where food comes from.

00:06:55   - Here we go.

00:06:56   - That's why you are royal and I am serval.

00:06:58   - No, food comes from square packages.

00:07:00   - All right, so we should probably start

00:07:02   with some followup and try to get this train

00:07:04   back on the tracks.

00:07:06   So Alex Howell wrote in to tell us about the Nintendo 3DS.

00:07:10   So I believe that's your job, John, to tell us about this.

00:07:14   - Yeah, last show when we were talking about Nintendo Switch,

00:07:17   I was questioning whether, and we were all questioning,

00:07:20   like, what does this mean for the 3DS for Apple,

00:07:22   or for Nintendo's portable line?

00:07:23   I did that mistake like three times in the last episode too,

00:07:25   saying Apple instead of Nintendo.

00:07:27   Easy to get them confused until they buy each other.

00:07:29   Anyway, and I said, you know, I haven't been following this,

00:07:33   so if someone knows, please send a link.

00:07:34   So Alex Howell did.

00:07:35   It's an interview with the president of Nintendo,

00:07:37   who I still realized in my mind,

00:07:40   I keep thinking it's Iwata, but he died, sadly, his untimely death, I think last year, or

00:07:46   maybe it was already this year, I don't remember.

00:07:48   Anyway, there's this new person whose name is Tatsumi Kimishima, if I'm pronouncing it

00:07:54   correctly.

00:07:55   Kimishima, yeah, I'm close.

00:07:58   And it's an interview, and the question from the interview is in Bloomberg.

00:08:04   Question, "Will you discontinue 3DS?"

00:08:06   Answer from the president of Nintendo, "Thanks to our software, the 3DS hardware is still

00:08:09   growing. So that business still has momentum. And certainly rather than being cannibalized

00:08:14   by the Switch, we think 3DS can continue in its own form. Which is a perfectly business-like

00:08:18   answer that completely fits with Marco's suggestion on the last show, which is that

00:08:22   they're just going to keep it going. If the Switch takes off, they can can it. If

00:08:25   the Switch doesn't take off, then they'll be glad they kept it going. So that seems

00:08:28   like what they're doing.

00:08:29   Fair enough. Is that all our follow-up?

00:08:32   Yeah. You guys are slacking off on the follow-up. I mean, it was a lot of Switch/show and this

00:08:36   This is the only, oh the other follow up I have item on the Switch, some random thing

00:08:40   that I read that I don't have a link for, was about the Switch when you, you know, so

00:08:46   you pick it up and it's like a little thing you hold in your hand, it's got the little

00:08:48   controllers that slide on the side, but if you're gonna sit on your couch and do it,

00:08:51   you put the Switch, but it looks like a big, you know, 16 by 9-ish screen, you put that

00:08:56   in like a docking station, looks kind of like a napkin holder, right, it's like a little

00:09:02   upright vertical thing that you slide the switch into.

00:09:06   And something I read the other day was that when you put the switch in that docking station,

00:09:11   one of the advantages to being docked, aside from obviously not running down the battery

00:09:14   because the dock will be connected to power, is that the switch itself becomes more powerful

00:09:19   because the docking station provides additional cooling, allowing the internals to be at max,

00:09:25   you know, to run at full tilt without hitting thermal limits.

00:09:28   Which is really weird if you think about it.

00:09:29   So basically it means when it's handheld it won't be as powerful or as good.

00:09:33   So does that mean like this frame rate will suffer or will it crank down the detail and

00:09:37   that's part of the game maker's API or whatever.

00:09:39   But anyway, all the more reason for you to just keep it plugged into your TV and pretend

00:09:43   like Nintendo is still making TV connected consoles instead of making really weird much

00:09:47   more powerful portable systems that you can also use on a TV.

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00:12:00   (upbeat music)

00:12:03   - Jon, tell me what's going on with your keychain.

00:12:05   Sounds like there's trouble in Syracuse County.

00:12:08   - Yeah, so Sierra situation, I upgraded my old SiMac,

00:12:12   5K Mac to Sierra pretty quickly after release.

00:12:15   And I think I mentioned on the show

00:12:18   a few weird bumps with keychain stuff.

00:12:20   I'm like, well, that happens when you just did the upgrade

00:12:22   and apps need to be reauthorized because they think something's different or the Apple built-in

00:12:27   apps have updated themselves and now, you know, whatever.

00:12:33   It's a common thing that happens after you upgrade that you have to do some stuff involving

00:12:37   Keychain.

00:12:38   But here we are, I don't know how many months after Sierra was released, and I'm ready to

00:12:42   call this a persistent problem that I can't attribute to data-related things because it

00:12:47   happens on, we all have accounts on our 5K, it happens on my account there and it happens

00:12:51   on her account. I don't know if it happens on the kid's account, but they probably don't have much

00:12:54   stuff in their keychain. And this is what happens. So we'll all be using the computer, you know,

00:12:59   people go up to it and switch to their account and do their stuff, and my son goes and changes

00:13:02   his account and plays Minecraft, and my wife comes and changes to her account and does stuff, you

00:13:05   know, whatever. You use the computer for a while, everything is fine. At a certain point, I think

00:13:10   it's probably multiple days, because we never turn this computer off. It just goes to sleep, but it's

00:13:14   never actually off or restarted. After a couple of days, you get a little notification in the upper

00:13:19   right hand corner of the screen.

00:13:20   Usually, again, I see it on my account or my wife's account,

00:13:22   but that's probably because they're

00:13:23   the one it's on most often.

00:13:25   And it says, you need to create a new iCloud security code.

00:13:28   And the buttons on the notification dialog

00:13:30   are Create and Later.

00:13:32   If you hit Later, it goes away.

00:13:33   If you hit Create, it opens the iCloud preference pane

00:13:37   and then does nothing.

00:13:38   Like, it doesn't do anything in the iCloud preference pane.

00:13:41   It just sits there.

00:13:42   I actually have gone through the motion of, OK,

00:13:45   I will create a new iCloud security code.

00:13:48   I know how to do it.

00:13:49   I'll go into the thing and click on the thing, blah, blah, blah, and enter new code, and

00:13:52   blah, blah.

00:13:53   That appears to have no effect.

00:13:54   You can do it, but it doesn't matter.

00:13:56   A couple days later, you're going to see that dialogue.

00:13:57   When you see that dialogue, what it's trying to tell you, like what you will find out later

00:14:00   if you just continue to use your computer, is that basically nothing involving passwords

00:14:04   works.

00:14:05   It usually shows up for me that like it can't mount the Synology anymore, because the password

00:14:09   for the Synology is in the keychain, right?

00:14:11   And so if it can't mount the Synology to do time machine backups to it, it will stop doing

00:14:15   time machines backups to it and complain that it can't do that, or if you try to log into

00:14:19   a website or whatever, you know, like, that it's not getting passwords out of the keychain.

00:14:23   If you try to log in somewhere and enter a password and then try to save the password,

00:14:27   it will say, "Sorry, couldn't find the system keychain," or "couldn't find the login keychain,"

00:14:31   or something like that to save your password in.

00:14:33   And if you launch Keychain Access and look at it, you see a bunch of blank icons in the

00:14:38   sidebar and a little text that says "read only mode."

00:14:42   It's like your keychains are all gone.

00:14:43   They're all still there.

00:14:44   If you look in your library keychains thing, they're all sitting there.

00:14:47   The files are there.

00:14:48   They're perfectly fine as far as I can tell, but Keychain Access won't even show their

00:14:51   icons let alone any of their contents and it says everything is in read-only mode.

00:14:55   And the only way to fix this is to reboot.

00:14:57   I mean, you reboot everything's fine again for a couple days.

00:14:59   All your passwords are still there.

00:15:00   Nothing is corrupted.

00:15:01   They removed the Keychain First Aid menu item.

00:15:03   I have no idea what the hell it did, but it made me feel good.

00:15:05   I would have tried that if that option was still there, but it's not.

00:15:09   But it's totally explicable to me.

00:15:11   I keep looking in activity monitor to see like is there some sekdi demon that has hung

00:15:16   or something and I'll see it showing up as red because it's not pulling events off or

00:15:19   you know what I don't like is there some thing I can restart but I have not figured this

00:15:23   out and because it's one of those every few days type of problems sometimes maybe only

00:15:27   once a week and the cure is a very fast reboot like my motivation to troubleshoot it has

00:15:35   been low but it's increasing but I don't really know what to do people are saying to you know

00:15:41   "riskutil reset user permissions" on everything, or the equivalent of "repair permissions"

00:15:46   and stuff like that. The permissions all seem to be fine. And I don't quite know what is

00:15:53   going wrong after days of using the computer that suddenly the keychains just go away.

00:15:57   Like it's not corrupt files, it's not corrupt data, because then just nothing would work

00:16:01   ever. And I don't even know whether to attribute this to Sierra. I keep hoping there will be

00:16:06   a point update to Sierra and like, well, whatever, this will be some glitch and then it will

00:16:09   go away in a point update, but the point updates to Sierra don't seem to be coming out very

00:16:13   quickly.

00:16:14   I know there's one in flight right now, but I'm not on the beta train.

00:16:17   Maybe I should get on that and see if it changes things.

00:16:20   But anyway, all this is to say is that it has prevented me—one of the many things

00:16:24   that has prevented me from upgrading my technically incompatible Mac Pro to Sierra.

00:16:27   It's like, "Well, I don't want to deal with that.

00:16:30   My Mac Pro works the way it's supposed to, and I don't have any of these problems,

00:16:34   so why would I want to bring them on?"

00:16:36   It could be related to a MOS/IMAC, could be related to the specific data on there.

00:16:40   Who knows?

00:16:41   It could be something corrupt in iCloud.

00:16:44   It's one of those things that's very difficult to know what the deal is.

00:16:46   But half the reason I'm mentioning it on the show is because I've been stewing on it for

00:16:51   a long time, and it's worth getting out there in case other people have any problem.

00:16:55   But really, selfishly, I'm hoping someone's going to tell me how to fix it, because I

00:17:00   just haven't had time to dive into this and figure out what the deal is, and googling

00:17:04   for it is not turning up anything, maybe I'll actually, you know, you know you're really

00:17:09   desperate when I'm thinking of filing a radar. Like, just, that's, because what can you even

00:17:12   say? Like, after some weird amount of time, usually a couple days, this happens, and I'll

00:17:17   just send them, like, screenshots of Keychain Access showing everything is blank and reboot

00:17:21   and it fixes it. So, I don't know.

00:17:25   Sort of tangentially related, I don't remember when it was, but it was easily a couple of

00:17:31   years ago, I used to very frequently get this weird bug with my Magic Mouse.

00:17:36   And I don't remember it happening with the trackpad on my laptops, but maybe it did.

00:17:42   But certainly with Magic Mouse, if I would use the one finger, say, left to right scroll

00:17:47   in order to go back a page in Safari, the active page would move right maybe 50 points,

00:17:56   100 points, and then it would just freeze.

00:17:58   And Safari would be like freaking useless until you quit it and restart it.

00:18:03   And just in the last day or two, this has started to come back.

00:18:06   And it happened, I believe, on both my work and personal machines, which was super creepy

00:18:11   and really weird.

00:18:13   And it's only happened a couple times, and I haven't had it happen since, but this was

00:18:17   infuriating when it was common a couple of years ago, because I would have to like quit

00:18:22   Safari constantly.

00:18:23   And it actually also happened in Chrome once, which was also super weird.

00:18:29   And I don't need to hear anyone emailing me about how I should use Chrome and not Safari,

00:18:32   or about how I should use Safari and not Chrome.

00:18:34   My web browser choices are my business, thank you very much.

00:18:38   But it was certainly very weird and very not reliably reproducible.

00:18:42   So similarly, I'm not sure what kind of radar I should file other than, "Hey, look, the

00:18:47   window is frozen with me 100 points into a back animation."

00:18:52   That's weird.

00:18:53   Totally sounds like a laptop bug. Everyone has a laptop, always has like core graphics

00:18:57   bugs radiated to like their GPU drivers or weird GPU issues, especially with the dual

00:19:01   GPU switching, stuff like that.

00:19:03   Could be.

00:19:04   My favorite thing is that the bug is syncing itself helpfully between your work and home

00:19:07   computers.

00:19:08   Right, exactly.

00:19:09   Unlike your keyboard shortcuts or whatever.

00:19:10   I was just about to say that. Get out of my head. I was just about to say that. My damn

00:19:14   keyboard shortcuts are still lost in the ether, but hey, this bug is syncing just great. Thanks,

00:19:18   iCloud.

00:19:19   One more thing about my keychain thing that I remembered.

00:19:22   Many times-- I don't know if this is related or separate--

00:19:24   but many times since upgrading to Sierra,

00:19:27   the computer will get into a state where it cannot go to

00:19:30   any website using HTTPS.

00:19:34   TLS, SSL, all that.

00:19:36   If you try to load one of them, it

00:19:38   will say, sorry, couldn't make a secure connection,

00:19:41   or whatever weird error screen to the browser.

00:19:43   Doesn't matter the browser.

00:19:44   Sierra, Safari, Chrome, I think I even tried Firefox once.

00:19:48   It just can't do it.

00:19:49   A lot of these symptoms are all explained by like,

00:19:51   oh, your time, your clock is off,

00:19:53   'cause many things will get screwed up

00:19:55   if your clock is off.

00:19:56   A lot of like certificates and expiration things

00:19:58   or just agreement between the two ends of a connection

00:20:02   about what the hell time and date it is.

00:20:04   So almost all of the Googling that you do about this is like,

00:20:08   oh, you just need to, you know,

00:20:10   your computer's clock is wrong.

00:20:11   That's why you can't do anything involving Keychain

00:20:13   or that's why you can't do anything involving secure sites.

00:20:15   So I can't tell you the number of times like it's happened

00:20:17   and I immediately look at the clock and say,

00:20:18   Is that clock right?

00:20:19   Is that today's date?

00:20:20   You know, what year is it?

00:20:22   It's like a time traveler.

00:20:24   And I've turned off NTP and turned it back on.

00:20:26   And just as far as I can tell,

00:20:28   every time this has happened,

00:20:30   the time and date have been exactly correct.

00:20:32   And toggling that stuff does not restore anything

00:20:34   to a working state.

00:20:35   And again, the solution is always to restart

00:20:36   and it comes back like nothing is wrong

00:20:37   and everything is perfectly fine.

00:20:39   - You remember when we used to make fun

00:20:41   of the Windows users for restarting

00:20:43   their computers constantly?

00:20:45   That was awesome.

00:20:46   - I mean, the thing is, as somebody who was a Windows user

00:20:50   a lot until 2005 or six or so,

00:20:55   I generally only had to restart my Windows computer

00:20:59   about as often as I restart my Mac.

00:21:02   And that was partly because I got on the Windows NT

00:21:04   kernel early, like I started using Windows 2000

00:21:06   since it's a beta in February '99,

00:21:09   and like dropped the 98 kernel by the wayside

00:21:13   as quickly as I possibly could.

00:21:15   Even though I couldn't print for like a year,

00:21:16   but it was worth it.

00:21:17   (laughing)

00:21:18   So it's fine.

00:21:19   (laughing)

00:21:20   But, so you know, generally if you treat your computers well

00:21:24   if you know what you're doing,

00:21:26   you don't usually have to restart Windows or Macs

00:21:29   more frequently than the other.

00:21:31   It is though a little concerning that like,

00:21:34   oh man there's so many bugs in Mac OS now.

00:21:36   It's really kind of sad, it makes me sad.

00:21:39   You know, we get feedback telling us to stop complaining

00:21:42   about Apple because for some reason we aren't allowed to,

00:21:44   but it really does make me sad to see

00:21:46   my computing platform of choice that I love so much.

00:21:50   There's a lot of bugs now.

00:21:52   And it's not like massive showstoppers

00:21:54   like Jon's password thing, most of the time.

00:21:56   Like most of the time it's more little stuff.

00:21:58   Like the other day, I've been using Apple's new Notes app

00:22:02   since it was launched in what, iOS 9, whenever that was?

00:22:06   - I think that's right.

00:22:07   - And I've been using that for all my little notes.

00:22:10   And I'm a pretty light Notes user in general.

00:22:13   I never heavily use the Dropbox editors before that.

00:22:16   I have something like 50 notes maybe.

00:22:19   It's not like a large number of them.

00:22:21   And they're not always open.

00:22:23   I'll open it, check one thing, and then close it.

00:22:25   And it's worked perfectly for me until last week.

00:22:29   Now, notes just basically don't sync reliably

00:22:32   between devices anymore.

00:22:35   And I've tried logging out of iCloud,

00:22:37   logging back in, it doesn't work.

00:22:39   Nothing can make my notes sync reliably

00:22:41   to certain devices anymore.

00:22:43   my laptop, logging in, logging out worked.

00:22:45   My iPad, logging in, logging out didn't work.

00:22:47   Like it's just like everything,

00:22:50   I never had to do this stuff before

00:22:51   and it's just like, come on.

00:22:53   And this is what makes iCloud bugs and iMessage also,

00:22:58   like you know, people have these problems

00:22:59   with iMessage since the beginning.

00:23:01   So often the answer that you get if you ask people

00:23:05   or even if you can get Apple to tell you anything,

00:23:07   the answer that you get is usually like,

00:23:09   well just like sign out of iCloud, clear everything off,

00:23:12   sign everything back in, and it's like,

00:23:14   that's not a solution.

00:23:15   That should never be the answer.

00:23:17   That is never good enough.

00:23:18   That's like telling somebody, restore your phone,

00:23:20   and don't restore from backup.

00:23:21   Start cleaning from your phone, erase everything,

00:23:23   just lose everything.

00:23:24   That's not an answer.

00:23:25   That is not a good solution.

00:23:26   And there's just so many bugs now

00:23:29   that come up seemingly for no reason

00:23:31   in not even edge case usage.

00:23:35   I feel like now you're in edge case

00:23:36   if you don't have one of these bugs

00:23:37   hitting at least one of your various Apple sync services.

00:23:41   - I actually, outside of my damn keyboard shortcuts,

00:23:43   which in the grand scheme of things are not that important,

00:23:46   I actually don't really have any of these problems.

00:23:48   For the longest time when people would complain

00:23:50   and moan about iMessage,

00:23:51   almost everyone had a horror story.

00:23:53   I might be an iMessage unicorn

00:23:55   because I cannot recall a time

00:23:57   that I've had more than just a very brief hiccup,

00:24:00   not this continual non-delivered messages

00:24:03   or out-of-band messages.

00:24:05   - You don't have split conversations

00:24:07   where you're sending a message to me

00:24:08   and then I reply to you a day later,

00:24:10   but it shows up in a separate conversation.

00:24:12   So now you have two conversations that are just me and you.

00:24:14   - Yeah, but that makes perfect sense.

00:24:16   Like I, it's an unfortunate scenario.

00:24:18   - No, it does not make perfect sense at all.

00:24:19   - Oh sure it does.

00:24:20   No, no, so the problem,

00:24:21   this is particularly bad with group messages,

00:24:23   but I believe the problem to be that somebody say,

00:24:27   like let's say it's the three of us,

00:24:29   and I send an iMessage to John's phone number

00:24:32   and Marco's email address.

00:24:33   - Yeah, I know the source of the problem,

00:24:35   but we're the same people.

00:24:36   Like this is not, you know,

00:24:37   oh, you sent it to my Apple ID and not to my phone number.

00:24:39   like we're the same people, it's the same icon in the application. Combine them, don't

00:24:42   make them separate.

00:24:43   No, no, I agree with you, I totally agree with you, but at least that problem kind of

00:24:46   sort of makes sense.

00:24:47   And really, and like there is no solution to that, because it's like, you know, you

00:24:51   have to make sure, even if you make sure all your devices are set to, when I send a message,

00:24:55   I want to send it from either my phone number or my Apple ID. If you like, if you make it

00:24:58   all consistent on your end, it doesn't matter because you can't control how people contact

00:25:01   you. And it's just, it's chaos. It's, you will never be merged. You can just, you just

00:25:05   got to hope that people will reply to the same thing that they got it on, on a device

00:25:09   that is configured like it's intractable.

00:25:11   It's not good.

00:25:12   They need to come up with a solution to this.

00:25:14   - See this is why the unified timeline's bad

00:25:16   'cause it gets you spoiled.

00:25:18   - It's spoiled by consistency.

00:25:19   - Right, exactly.

00:25:20   - And a series of events, one following the other.

00:25:22   (laughing)

00:25:24   - No, but that's fine.

00:25:25   - Incredibly confusing.

00:25:26   - Right?

00:25:27   I know, it's ridiculous.

00:25:28   No, but all I'm trying to say is that

00:25:30   outside of my damn keyboard shortcuts

00:25:32   which drive me absolutely bananas,

00:25:34   I actually don't really have any common bugs

00:25:37   that I feel like I hit on a regular basis now that my RAM is actually working. But I

00:25:43   do feel that the one-off bugs, like for example, I had a kernel panic earlier today, which

00:25:49   is something I haven't had happen in a long time.

00:25:51   That's got to be the RAM.

00:25:53   Yep.

00:25:54   No, it was my work computer. It was my work computer. Nice try.

00:25:56   I haven't had a kernel panic. I average about one kernel panic per year over all my devices

00:26:01   at this point.

00:26:02   Yeah, that's about right.

00:26:03   Yeah.

00:26:04   And I go multiple years without any. And just like, yeah, and then they cluster in a year

00:26:06   or you know, whenever I see one I think something is wrong hardware-wise at this point.

00:26:11   Talking about how often you reboot like in the bad old days of the Macs in the 90s, you

00:26:16   would hear the bongs, the little bongs that Marco will insert into the podcast at this

00:26:19   point all over the office all the time from poor developers on classic Mac OS trying to

00:26:26   use Adobe products to get their work done and it was just inevitable that you would

00:26:29   get a whole system freeze at some point, probably averaging like one point something per day

00:26:33   for them. If you knew what you were doing and had a limited set of non-Adobe software,

00:26:38   essentially, like I could go days and days with just my BB Edit and IE5 running or whatever,

00:26:43   but eventually, if you were doing anything complicated or stressing it and weren't just

00:26:49   staying in this little groove, you know, no memory protection. It's like the same reason

00:26:53   Marco got off Windows 95 and 98 and onto 2000 because he just wanted to get out of that

00:26:57   So things are still way better than you know in living memory and my very vivid living memory of how bad it used to be

00:27:04   And you know the kernel packs like in terms of what is the stability of the core system?

00:27:08   And this is one of the things I emphasized early on in my OS 10 reviews

00:27:11   Then called Mac OS 10 they they did a really good job with the like does the operating system crash

00:27:19   but as a user you don't care basically if the kernel crashes because if the if the entire UI freezes and

00:27:27   and the only way to get out of it is like, you know, kill login window and send you back to the login screen,

00:27:32   it might, the kernel might as well have crashed because everything you were doing is hosed.

00:27:36   It's like, oh, the operating system is fine. Like the kernel is still running.

00:27:39   It just killed a bunch of processes and it came back. So basically like UI freeze versus operating system crash.

00:27:44   It doesn't matter from the user's perspective, but technically speaking,

00:27:48   I would say that MAGOS 10 specifically and iOS to some degree,

00:27:51   although I can tell you about some of my iOS weirdness after this,

00:27:54   But the core OS is very solid like to have used Mac OS 10 for how many years you know

00:28:02   10 years 15 years 17 whatever the hell it is

00:28:05   Kernel panics are just not a thing in my life and like you said Marco if you see one

00:28:09   Immediately think hardware problem. That's how reliable the core OS is

00:28:13   Things above that might start to get flaky and by the way the the suggestion from the chat room

00:28:18   Which I'm definitely gonna try because it smells right to me from a to be tipster for it to solve my problem

00:28:23   is turn off iCloud keychain, which I have turned on.

00:28:27   Because anything that involves iCloud could be like

00:28:30   locking my files in some weird ass way.

00:28:32   It's like fine, I will just turn that feature off

00:28:34   and not have the stuff sync and see if that solves it.

00:28:37   Because everything that we've listed so far is like,

00:28:39   if it involves iCloud, that means it involves something

00:28:41   other than the bits on your computer

00:28:43   and is very often buggy.

00:28:47   But anyway, I think the stability and reliability

00:28:51   of everything not having to do with cloud services

00:28:53   on the Mac has pretty much gotten better over time.

00:28:56   It's a lumpy path.

00:28:57   There are regressions and everything.

00:28:58   It's not a straight upward line.

00:29:00   It goes up and down, up and down, but in general,

00:29:02   the trend is good.

00:29:03   So I'm thankful for that every day.

00:29:06   And it makes me appreciate all the more

00:29:07   of my beautiful 2008 Power Mac,

00:29:11   which is just at this point,

00:29:12   because it's running like the very latest version of El Cap.

00:29:16   And I mean, it's just incredibly solid.

00:29:18   I can't remember the last time I had any kind of problem

00:29:20   with it, which is yet another reason

00:29:22   not motivated to upgrade it. That's a good machine. All I was trying to say

00:29:26   earlier is that you know outside of these one-offs here and there I do think

00:29:29   that things are pretty good and this is what you were you know saying John that

00:29:31   things are so much better than they used to be and I don't I don't want to

00:29:35   perpetuate the oh all the three of us do is complain idea but because things are

00:29:41   pretty darn great as long as you're not trying to keep a sync keyboard text

00:29:44   replacement other than that we're okay. I have literally never used that feature I

00:29:48   I have never created or deleted any of these things

00:29:52   until earlier last week when I was setting up my new laptop

00:29:56   and I noticed I was going through all the preference windows

00:29:58   it was the first clean install I had done in a long time.

00:30:01   (laughing)

00:30:02   And in this text shortcuts was about 16 copies

00:30:07   of the default on my way entry that's there.

00:30:10   Like that's-- - Ah, delightful.

00:30:12   - Like oh great, I have literally never touched this feature

00:30:15   and somehow I have 16 copies of this.

00:30:16   It's like, obviously there is no effort

00:30:18   being put into this feature.

00:30:21   - Well, the reason that feature always comes up

00:30:22   in our circles is because it is like,

00:30:25   it's like the easiest toy example of sync.

00:30:27   Like the amount of data is so small

00:30:30   and it's all just text and it's a lightly

00:30:32   or unused feature.

00:30:34   It's almost as if like,

00:30:35   if you wanted to do a demo application of like CloudKit

00:30:38   and the syncing services, the modern syncing services,

00:30:41   you would say, let's just pretend we're syncing,

00:30:43   you know, keyboard shortcuts,

00:30:44   where it's just, you know, name value pairs, all plain text.

00:30:48   Like it can't get any easier than that.

00:30:50   And if that doesn't work 100% rock solid,

00:30:52   reliably what hope in the world does anybody have

00:30:54   to build a reliable syncing engine for an application

00:30:56   with actual complicated data

00:30:58   on top of Apple's cloud services?

00:31:01   So that's why it always comes up.

00:31:03   Like it's not just because we're all obsessed

00:31:05   with tech shortcuts, it's because it's like a canary.

00:31:08   You know, it's like, if that doesn't work,

00:31:10   then, you know, as a developer,

00:31:12   A, don't even bother trying to build

00:31:14   your sophisticated application on top of the syncing engine.

00:31:17   And if that doesn't work, then as a user,

00:31:21   it makes you less confident in any of Apple's own

00:31:23   more complicated syncing things.

00:31:25   - Yeah, that's why Notes having a problem for me

00:31:28   this past week is really concerning for me.

00:31:30   Because it was reliable for the last year and a half,

00:31:35   or whatever it's been since they launched it,

00:31:37   and then all of a sudden now it's just not.

00:31:39   And I've tried the basic debugging technique

00:31:41   of like, oh, log out, log back in, clear everything, restore.

00:31:44   It's like, that doesn't work.

00:31:45   It's like, well, okay, now what?

00:31:48   - That's not a debugging technique.

00:31:49   That's just like the only thing you can do.

00:31:51   - Exactly.

00:31:52   - But Notes is actually surprisingly sophisticated.

00:31:55   Like it's not just text shortcuts.

00:31:57   Because it does do like, try to do like merging of changes

00:32:00   and simultaneous accents for shared notes.

00:32:02   Do you use shared notes?

00:32:03   Like do you have like a shared like grocery list

00:32:05   with you and Tiff where you both have access

00:32:07   to the same note to read, write,

00:32:08   you know, Google Docs style thing?

00:32:10   - I've only ever done that with OneNote

00:32:11   and it's no longer there.

00:32:13   - Yeah, so I mean, we take it for granted,

00:32:14   like with the fact that we sit here

00:32:16   and I'll edit this Google Doc

00:32:17   that has our show notes in it.

00:32:19   Have we ever had data destroying bugs

00:32:21   or things that have caused it to be corrupt

00:32:23   or Casey writes something and I say,

00:32:26   Casey, did you write something?

00:32:27   I don't see anything.

00:32:28   That has literally never happened.

00:32:29   Google Docs, whatever they're doing, it just always works.

00:32:32   Is it the greatest app in the world?

00:32:33   No.

00:32:34   Is it possible to get weird things?

00:32:35   Like when I was trying to select some text

00:32:36   and Casey was writing earlier,

00:32:37   my selection moved because the text was going under it,

00:32:39   but you just stop selecting and you try again.

00:32:41   But that's one of the reasons I have such faith in Google and their cloud service stuff,

00:32:46   plus or minus privacy stuff, which, you know, use your own judgment, is that the basics,

00:32:52   you know, Google Docs, can multiple people edit a text document at the same time doesn't

00:32:55   get screwed up?

00:32:56   Proof is in the pudding, yes, they totally can.

00:32:58   Whereas, if we had gone with Margo's one time, perhaps, sarcastic suggestion to use like

00:33:03   a shared pages document, I have little faith that it would have been as successful.

00:33:07   I never said shared pages.

00:33:09   I would never have suggested that.

00:33:11   - Someone, one of you suggested we try iWork.com

00:33:13   or something, I don't know, it could have been a joke.

00:33:15   - Yeah, we did try, there was like,

00:33:17   there were a couple of other web services

00:33:19   that we tried that people had recommended

00:33:21   and none of those really worked out for us either.

00:33:23   And so we just came back to the Google Docs

00:33:25   'cause it's, Google Docs is basically like the windows

00:33:28   of online collaboration, it's like--

00:33:31   - That's too harsh, I think.

00:33:34   When it comes to shared text documents, reliability,

00:33:38   I mean, it's not a bad application.

00:33:40   It's not great, the UI could be a little bit weird,

00:33:42   but it works all the time,

00:33:45   and it more or less has the features we need,

00:33:47   and none of us ever think about it.

00:33:50   I don't think we spend time worrying about

00:33:52   how Google Docs is working.

00:33:53   - That's true.

00:33:54   - And that's ideal for a tool you're gonna use

00:33:58   for this purpose, just like,

00:33:59   it's not in the front of any of our minds ever.

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00:35:36   I get to my iOS issues. It's the same as last time. I just want to give an update.

00:35:43   This is probably – it's just like a whole like bug complaint show.

00:35:46   No, I don't want it to be. I'm trying to bring it back, but we all have too many new

00:35:51   pieces of –

00:35:51   It's bug complaint slash desperately try to crowdsource solutions to your own personal

00:35:57   problems by using your position on that podcast. In theory, you could be helping other people

00:36:03   So this should have been a follow-up, but too late.

00:36:05   I was talking about plugging my big fat ugly lightning connected ear pods into my iPhone

00:36:11   7 and how occasionally it doesn't work and I described some scenarios where it doesn't

00:36:16   work.

00:36:17   I come up with a new scenario where it doesn't work where I pick up my phone.

00:36:21   I don't know what order I do things and maybe I probably already unlocked it and overcast

00:36:25   it's the front-most app or whatever.

00:36:27   I plug in my headphones, put the ear pods in my ear.

00:36:30   I hit the big honking triangle play button in Overcast and sound starts coming out of

00:36:34   the speakers in the phone.

00:36:35   Yeah.

00:36:36   And there's a long time between the time when I plugged in the headphones and the time when

00:36:40   that happens it's like getting on an escalator that's not moving.

00:36:44   You're like, "Wait, what?"

00:36:46   I plugged in the headphones like seven seconds ago.

00:36:51   You know, sometimes you plug in the headphones then, you know, go to Springboard or go to

00:36:55   Overcast or like eventually you get there, you know, go to the podcast, you hit the play

00:36:58   button.

00:36:59   your ears for what seemed like forever and you hit play and it starts playing audio out

00:37:03   of the phone speaker and you just like you just shake your head at the phone like what is what

00:37:08   are you doing like this is your basics like none of your previous iPhones had this problem when I

00:37:13   plugged in the damn headphones and hit play on an audio app the sound always came out of the

00:37:17   headphones and like always did like a hundred percent of the time I've run this experiment

00:37:20   many times on every single iPod touch and every single iPhone every single iPod shuffle when I hit

00:37:25   "

00:37:41   it'll just play through the phone speaker still.

00:37:43   Even though the car thinks it's connected,

00:37:45   the phone thinks it's connected to the car,

00:37:47   but it still plays out through

00:37:47   the phone's internal speaker instead.

00:37:49   - Yeah, but Bluetooth never works.

00:37:50   Like, I'm not in a car.

00:37:51   - No, Bluetooth usually works.

00:37:53   Like, that's the-- - Yeah, I agree.

00:37:55   - My Bluetooth is not, my Bluetooth and my Honda

00:37:57   is incredibly unreliable, and I have all sorts

00:37:59   of situations like that that I'm used to dealing with.

00:38:01   But headphones, like the reason it's so,

00:38:03   the reason it's so disturbing to me is like,

00:38:05   headphones are just, you know,

00:38:06   I'm just in my kitchen, right?

00:38:07   this is previously 100% reliable technology.

00:38:11   So I'm really, my opinion is going downhill fast.

00:38:15   - Well, it was never, the way iOS handles audio routing

00:38:19   to different devices has never been 100% reliable.

00:38:22   I think, and different releases, as they update

00:38:25   and change certain subsystems to enable new things

00:38:27   or whatever, certain OSs are better than others.

00:38:30   And I think iOS 10 is particularly bad in this area

00:38:32   of selecting the right output device reliably.

00:38:35   But almost every iOS version that comes out,

00:38:39   almost every, betas one through five

00:38:42   of almost every iOS version every year

00:38:44   have some massive problem with audio routing.

00:38:47   I don't know why audio routing is just always messed with.

00:38:50   I assume all the changes in iOS 10

00:38:52   were to accommodate the AirPods and all the different,

00:38:56   'cause that's like Bluetooth audio

00:38:57   got really messed up for a while in the betas

00:38:58   and I'm pretty sure that's why.

00:39:00   But whatever they do, it seems like they're always

00:39:02   having to mess with the audio stack in weird ways

00:39:05   that leave it very unreliable.

00:39:07   And one of the very frequent problems

00:39:09   I've always had with phones,

00:39:10   every once in a while you will tell your podcast to play

00:39:14   and it'll think there's no speakers

00:39:15   connected to the phone of any form.

00:39:17   Like it'll show like nothing in the source list

00:39:21   from the AirPlay icon,

00:39:23   or it'll show like iPhone as the only entry.

00:39:27   And usually you have to just reboot when that,

00:39:29   like there's nothing you can do to use reboot at that point.

00:39:31   But that's been a long-standing iOS bug.

00:39:33   And again, almost every iOS version has something like that

00:39:37   that's going wrong with it every so often.

00:39:39   - But have you ever plugged in plain old headphones

00:39:41   into a plain old headphone jack on an iOS device

00:39:44   and then played audio and not had it come out

00:39:45   to headphones?

00:39:46   I've literally never had that experience

00:39:47   until like this week with the lighting.

00:39:49   - That's a good point.

00:39:50   I know I have not had that happen to me,

00:39:52   but now every device is whatever class of device

00:39:58   that like Bluetooth and car things get.

00:40:00   Like now headphones are like that too

00:40:03   because of progress and courage.

00:40:04   - Yeah, now they got their own little computers in there.

00:40:06   Yeah, so the other thing that I saw,

00:40:09   which is I'm sure related to this,

00:40:11   but it was really weird 'cause I've never seen this one.

00:40:13   You know, iOS occasionally freaks out.

00:40:15   iOS for the most part is incredibly reliable.

00:40:17   Like I don't reboot my iOS devices.

00:40:19   They just run and run and run and run,

00:40:20   and that's the way it's supposed to be.

00:40:22   But recently on my iPhone 7,

00:40:24   again, plugging in the headphones,

00:40:25   So I plug in the headphones and then I hit the play button.

00:40:29   I think it might have just been on the lock screen because you know the little – the

00:40:32   media controls are still on lock screen.

00:40:33   I hit the play button to play and it doesn't play anything.

00:40:36   Like well fine whatever.

00:40:37   It doesn't play anything.

00:40:38   Let me just unlock the phone.

00:40:39   Well first let me unplug and plug – replug the headphones which is usually the first

00:40:42   thing.

00:40:43   Hit the play button, nothing happens.

00:40:44   And I'm like wait, is the play button even activating?

00:40:46   Let me unlock the phone and actually go to overcast and hit the play button there.

00:40:49   And I noticed that I can't unlock the phone.

00:40:51   I'm like oh, is it the stupid fingerprint?

00:40:52   Is that the problem?

00:40:53   Oh, forget about the fingerprint.

00:40:54   press the home button so I can do the, you know, enter my password so I can unlock my

00:40:59   phone, which I never do because I use Touch ID all the time, and I can't get the password

00:41:02   screen to come up.

00:41:03   And then I hit the home button and nothing's happening.

00:41:06   And I hit the power button and the phone doesn't go back to sleep.

00:41:10   And so I'm hitting every physical control and semi-physical control.

00:41:14   I'm pulling out the headphones and putting them back in.

00:41:16   I'm hitting the non-moving home button.

00:41:18   I'm hitting the power button and literally nothing is happening.

00:41:22   The screen is just sitting there staring at me.

00:41:24   It is not turning on, it is not turning off, it is not unlocking, it is not presenting

00:41:27   me with an unlock screen.

00:41:28   I tried to do what I think, I don't know if this is the case, but I'm trying to go from

00:41:32   memory like, "Oh, what's the new hard reboot thing?"

00:41:36   So I'm doing volume up and the power button, I think that's wrong.

00:41:39   I didn't, you know.

00:41:40   It's volume down.

00:41:41   Yeah.

00:41:42   Well, anyway, I tried various combinations of buttons, probably all of which were wrong,

00:41:44   none of which did anything.

00:41:45   I think if I had correctly found the one that kills it, I'm assuming it would have just

00:41:50   turned off like the equivalent of yanking the plug, right?

00:41:52   but I didn't find it, right?

00:41:54   And I'm doing this for, I don't know,

00:41:56   a minute, two minutes,

00:41:57   and then eventually things start happening

00:41:59   and I realize it is catching up

00:42:00   with everything that I've done

00:42:01   over the past several minutes.

00:42:03   - I've seen this happen.

00:42:03   - It happened to me once too.

00:42:05   And all of a sudden I see the volume changing

00:42:07   and going up and down and the lock screen coming

00:42:09   and just, and then it was fine.

00:42:11   - And then everything freaks out.

00:42:12   The Apple Pay screen pops up

00:42:13   because you kept hitting the home button.

00:42:14   - Yep, yep, yep.

00:42:15   It eventually got all that out of its system.

00:42:18   I'm like, okay, well it's back to normal.

00:42:19   And bottom line is I didn't reboot the thing,

00:42:21   but that whole time when it was freaking out,

00:42:23   it seemed to be kicked off by me plugging in my headphones,

00:42:26   but who the heck knows?

00:42:27   And anyway, that's very anti-social behavior

00:42:29   that also makes me concerned about my iPhone.

00:42:31   - Yeah, that happened to me a few,

00:42:34   maybe a couple of months ago, and I tweeted about it,

00:42:37   and I got a lot of responses from people saying

00:42:39   that happened to them too, and so it seems like

00:42:41   that's not that uncommon.

00:42:43   But, yeah, oh jeez.

00:42:45   - Like Sierra, iOS 10 is new,

00:42:47   so I just want more point releases to come out.

00:42:49   - It's not that new.

00:42:50   Well I guess, but like Sierra still, Sierra has not had a lot of point releases.

00:42:54   What is it up to?

00:42:55   Is it just the point one still?

00:42:56   Yes.

00:42:57   10.12.1?

00:42:58   Yeah, although dot two is I believe in pretty late beta at this point, but.

00:43:01   Yeah, I saw all the rumors about the new Polaris GPU drivers with making people think about

00:43:06   Mac Pros in there.

00:43:07   But anyway, I'm ready for point releases, because every point release I'm like, well

00:43:11   maybe they fixed this annoying thing, so.

00:43:14   And 10.2 they're saying they're on beta seven of 10.2.

00:43:16   I mean obviously they're more cautious with the iOS releases, so it's taken a while for

00:43:19   for 10.2 to appear, but it was like 10.1,

00:43:22   they don't do the three digit numbers on iOS versions,

00:43:25   do they? - Yeah, they do,

00:43:26   but it's only for bug fixes for the last digit.

00:43:28   - Yeah.

00:43:30   Anyway, hopefully when both of these OSs,

00:43:33   both Mac OS and iOS get their next point releases,

00:43:37   some or all of these things will improve.

00:43:39   - All right, on that happy note,

00:43:42   tell us about Amazon Go.

00:43:44   So Amazon, as chief summarizer and chief,

00:43:47   Amazon has come up with a,

00:43:49   "Hey, look what we're building video

00:43:52   that is only a couple minutes long, it's worth watching."

00:43:54   And basically it's taking Apple's easy steal

00:43:57   to the next level.

00:43:58   And the general premise is you scan a,

00:44:02   I think it was like a QR code that's on your phone

00:44:05   as you walk through a turnstile on your way in,

00:44:07   then you grab whatever it is you want to purchase,

00:44:10   and then you walk out.

00:44:11   And between like computer vision

00:44:13   and presumably like weight detection

00:44:16   or something like that.

00:44:17   RFID, I would imagine.

00:44:18   And RFID, yeah.

00:44:19   No RFID.

00:44:20   What?

00:44:21   Oh, did they say it wasn't RFID?

00:44:23   I'm surmising that.

00:44:25   Oh, okay.

00:44:26   So what are the catchphrases they use?

00:44:28   Computer vision, deep learning algorithms, sensor fusion are the three things they say.

00:44:34   We just know you bought a ton of Altoids.

00:44:35   You always buy a ton of Altoids.

00:44:37   We just assume you're going to buy one every time at this point.

00:44:39   They'll speculatively charge you for things that you're going to buy in the future, Minority

00:44:42   Report style.

00:44:43   Exactly.

00:44:44   A bunch of bald people in bathtubs know what you're going to buy.

00:44:47   Which is probably not far from the truth minus the bathtubs and the people.

00:44:50   They know what you're going to buy.

00:44:51   That's why Target sends you the thing with the baby supplies before you know you're pregnant.

00:44:55   They call that big data.

00:44:57   That really happened, kids.

00:44:58   I'm not going to put an article in the show notes because it'll take me three days to

00:45:01   find it, but that really did happen.

00:45:02   Anyway.

00:45:03   It'll take you three seconds to find that one.

00:45:04   It may be.

00:45:05   But the point is, you walk in, you scan a QR code in your phone to identify who you

00:45:09   are, you buy some things, then you leave.

00:45:12   And there's no checkout.

00:45:13   You just walk right out.

00:45:14   And in principle, this sounds pretty neat to me.

00:45:19   We should probably have a moment to mention Humans Need Not Apply, which is a great video

00:45:25   by a friend of the show, CGP Grey, about how when things like these automations happen,

00:45:31   that means that eventually humans will not have jobs, which is a problem.

00:45:34   But that horrible dystopian future aside, this sounds pretty cool.

00:45:38   So here's what I think about how this works based on this video.

00:45:43   The store, by the way, isn't open yet.

00:45:44   There's going to be one location in Seattle.

00:45:46   It's not open yet.

00:45:46   So all you've got is a video and a page that has a bunch of information on it.

00:45:49   Um, so it shows there's no turnstile, by the way, that would be barbaric.

00:45:53   You walk in through these, you know, these little, you know, they have little

00:45:58   dividers that you scan your QR code, but it's not as if you're going through like

00:46:00   a subway, you know, turnstile or amusement park, turnstile.

00:46:03   So you just walk through the QR code is scanned.

00:46:05   Now the thing knows you're in the store.

00:46:07   And I think one of the key technologies is the video says, and then just put your

00:46:11   phone away.

00:46:11   Like it's not like you're scanning things with your phone like on Apple's Apple store app or whatever

00:46:15   Once you scan your QR code and enter you still have to have your phone on you, but you can just put it in your pocket

00:46:20   It's not involved in this. You're not you're not tapping products with your phone

00:46:23   You're not scanning them with your phone and your phone's camera is not seeing them like it's in your pocket, right?

00:46:28   But they do have I think one part of this is proximity

00:46:31   Like it knows roughly where you are in the store probably using those eye beacons or similar type of technology

00:46:36   It knows what you like your phone has to be on

00:46:38   So it knows where it knows that you're in the store and knows roughly where you are and the computer vision thing

00:46:44   Like if you look at the video

00:46:45   every product that people are getting is kind of like they're inside a giant vending machine where things like slide down like the candy bar slides

00:46:51   Down a little twisty corkscrew, right?

00:46:52   And the next one comes like everything is in a single file lane

00:46:55   Where you grab the product at the front which by the way?

00:46:58   I would never do because you always got to pull from the back or middle, right?

00:47:00   And I assume they have cameras all over plus like you're saying weight sensors and any other things like sensor fusion

00:47:08   of knowing someone has picked a product off of this shelf.

00:47:12   You know which product it is

00:47:14   because you know which row it came in.

00:47:15   It's not like they're haphazardly shelved

00:47:16   or some employees like shelving them.

00:47:18   They're in precise rows.

00:47:20   And when you pull one off, they know you pulled one off.

00:47:22   And they know it was you based on proximity

00:47:25   of where your phone is.

00:47:26   Now, what if you are shoulder to shoulder

00:47:28   with three other people who are also pulling things off?

00:47:31   I suppose if you all reach over each other

00:47:32   and all three grab things out of the same aisle

00:47:35   that you're standing in front of,

00:47:36   it's possible to confuse the thing.

00:47:37   But what I'm getting is I think it's not RFID.

00:47:40   I think there is no, there are not RFID tags

00:47:42   on every single one of these things.

00:47:43   I think there's plain old containers.

00:47:45   There's nothing special about the containers.

00:47:47   Everything is about sensing where you are with the phone

00:47:50   and figuring out when people pull things out

00:47:52   of these very specific restricted little columns of food.

00:47:56   And the food that you were getting,

00:47:57   it's not like your supermarket where you can go buy,

00:48:01   you know, a loaf of bread, mayonnaise, you know,

00:48:04   some ground beef, like just,

00:48:05   It is more like prepared foods in little tins,

00:48:08   like in the prepared food section of Whole Foods

00:48:09   or whatever, plus maybe a couple of staples

00:48:11   like milk and butter and stuff like that.

00:48:13   But it is not a full-fetch grocery store

00:48:15   with everything you expect to see there.

00:48:17   I think partially because it would be hard

00:48:20   to get all that into this format,

00:48:21   into this little slidey-down, you know, whatever,

00:48:25   like these little rows of food

00:48:26   in neat little containers that are all uniformly sized,

00:48:29   'cause that's not how real grocery stores work.

00:48:31   And then finally, the idea is that you,

00:48:35   you grab the food and you just take it with you

00:48:37   and you just leave.

00:48:38   Like there is no,

00:48:39   there's no scanning of your items as you leave.

00:48:41   There's no like,

00:48:42   you don't even have to scan your QR code on the way back out.

00:48:44   You just walk out of the store.

00:48:46   It doesn't care what you put the items in.

00:48:47   You don't have to put them into a special bag.

00:48:49   You don't have to like, just,

00:48:50   you just take the crap and you leave.

00:48:51   And they say, and you know,

00:48:53   we'll charge your account for the amount that you bought,

00:48:56   you know, 'cause it's Amazon.

00:48:57   They have all your information

00:48:58   and your credit cards or whatever.

00:48:59   And if you're interested in looking at the receipt,

00:49:02   you can look at it right in the same app

00:49:04   that you scanned on the way in.

00:49:05   you launch this free app, this Amazon Go app, and it says, "Oh, you just bought these five

00:49:09   things." Right? And when I saw that, and I had my wife look at this too, and I knew what

00:49:14   her reaction would be to some degree, and when I saw it, what I thought of was like,

00:49:18   "Oh, no checkout lines, no waiting in line." But if everybody who used this was like my

00:49:24   wife, which I don't think everybody in the world is, but there are enough of them, what

00:49:27   would happen instead of people waiting in checkout lines is everybody would exit the

00:49:31   store with their stuff. And as soon as they got the door, they would be staring at their

00:49:36   phone, stopped in place, staring at their phone to make sure that the receipt in the

00:49:39   app exactly matches everything that's in their bag. To make sure they weren't overcharged

00:49:42   for anything, right? And so what would actually happen is the entrance to the store would

00:49:46   be clogged with a bunch of people who were all frantically checking their receipt to

00:49:49   make sure they didn't get charged for 500 cans of Hellmann's mayonnaise when really

00:49:53   they just took one or whatever. And then going back into the store and trying to correct

00:49:56   it like, you have to have, for this to work, it has to be like the people in the video

00:50:00   where it's like, I just walk out of the store and I'm fine.

00:50:03   Like I don't even need to look at this receipt.

00:50:04   Maybe later when I'm doing like my bills,

00:50:06   I'll look at the receipt, but I trust that it's fine.

00:50:08   But people who are, I don't know,

00:50:12   who are very careful about money spending

00:50:14   want to know immediately,

00:50:15   the same reason you check a paper receipt.

00:50:17   Like are you guys paper receipt checkers?

00:50:19   Like after you go to the grocery store,

00:50:20   do you look down the receipt or do you watch the scanning

00:50:23   to make sure that everything is being scanned

00:50:24   for the right price and that, you know,

00:50:26   oh, those are supposed to be two for $5.

00:50:28   And you know, do you check the receipt to make sure

00:50:30   that they didn't charge you for something you didn't buy and that you got the right

00:50:33   prices?

00:50:34   Not usually. Never.

00:50:35   Yeah, well, some people are receipt checkers. I'm definitely a scan watcher, because what

00:50:41   else do you have to do during that time? I watch the items being scanned in case they,

00:50:44   like, you know, scan the, you know, the potatoes, five potatoes I have, and it comes up as,

00:50:50   like, some ridiculous price because they thought it was, you know, you know, seven pounds of

00:50:54   saffron or something. You want to be watching for that stuff. If you're not one of those

00:50:59   people and you can go la-dee-da and just leave but I think there's enough receipt checkers

00:51:03   like if you're just to watch people leaving who just at least glance over the receipt

00:51:06   you know make sure the total makes sense make sure if you saw something you bought because

00:51:10   they were two for five dollars and that was a discount that you actually do get them for

00:51:14   two for five dollars and it's not like real grocery stores are clogged with people checking

00:51:18   their receipts but that anxiety that like this magical system like can I trust this

00:51:24   magical system initially that's going to be there now if it works really well eventually

00:51:28   people will just let go and say, "Oh, I don't need to keep checking that." It's more reliable

00:51:32   than humans. It's more reliable than self-checkout. It's more reliable than having real cashier,

00:51:37   which I think will be a real challenge because a really good supermarket cashier is way better

00:51:40   than -- that's why self-checkout sucks. When you check yourself out, you realize an experienced

00:51:44   cashier who knows exactly what code to enter for these particular kinds of green beans,

00:51:49   just bip, bip, bip, bip, bip, you know, like the things that don't have codes on them,

00:51:52   a good human cashier is worth way more than we pay them. And you don't realize until you

00:51:56   You either have to check yourself out or you get a bad human cashier.

00:51:59   Anyway, if the machines can ever match that, we will be happy and we will stop obsessing

00:52:05   with it.

00:52:06   But I think we have a long way to go to get there.

00:52:08   And in the meantime, the possibility of being overcharged is one thing.

00:52:11   And the second possibility is that the stupid thing will miss a bunch of stuff and you'll

00:52:14   get a lot of free food.

00:52:15   So that's a possible reason to check out the flagship store because I would imagine there's

00:52:20   going to be at least an equal number of situations where it doesn't keep track of something and

00:52:24   you just got some free food.

00:52:25   And if you're not a receipt checker, you're not going to know or care, and you're going

00:52:28   to eat the thing, and then later at the end of the month when you reconcile stuff, you'll

00:52:31   be like, "Hmm, everything was pretty cheap.

00:52:33   Oh, I guess it keeps missing those bunch of bananas that I take from the store every week

00:52:36   and it hasn't been charging me for them."

00:52:38   Because there's no one there watching.

00:52:39   So I don't know.

00:52:41   Someone who lives in Seattle should try the store out and then right into the show.

00:52:44   How many bananas are you buying where you would even notice whether you got them for

00:52:48   free or not?

00:52:49   Because they don't cost a lot.

00:52:51   I mean, it's one banana, Michael.

00:52:53   What could it cost?

00:52:54   Ten dollars?

00:52:55   You get a lot of bananas. You make a lot of banana bread. That's a staple around here.

00:52:58   You get a lot of bananas and if they go over, they get too brown for people to want to eat.

00:53:03   Banana bread, banana muffins, it's like, you know, bonus.

00:53:06   Kind of sounds like you're buying too many bananas on a number of fronts here.

00:53:10   Can never have too much banana bread. I don't think that's possible.

00:53:12   Oh, amen. Amen. Couldn't agree more. I don't know. I'm interested in this. I think it looks

00:53:17   pretty neat. I suspect that it won't be commonplace for years. We discussed this briefly on Clockwise

00:53:24   today which I happen to be a guest host on. We'll put a link in the show notes. And I

00:53:29   think this is the indication of the future, but I don't think we're quite into the future

00:53:35   yet. So we'll see. But it looks very cool if it works and if it's reliable.

00:53:39   So…

00:53:40   And this is the type of thing I like to see Amazon doing. Amazon does lots of things,

00:53:43   a lot of which don't seem to be part of their core competencies or only, you know,

00:53:51   like it's arguable whether everything that would eventually become Amazon Web

00:53:55   Services and you know S3 and EC2 and all that stuff is that part of Amazon's core

00:53:59   comps? Don't they sell books on the internet you know in the 90s version of

00:54:03   them right? But of course they have to run their own servers but then they

00:54:07   weren't really running their own servers on their web services for a long time

00:54:09   but then eventually they want to be so you can argue that like it may not seem

00:54:14   like this is a core part of a company that sells you things over the internet

00:54:17   but it is because this is how they run their business and then they do stuff

00:54:20   like the Fire Phone and the tablets and you can kind of argue about that and like well

00:54:24   it kind of works in with giving you an easier way to buy things and so on and so forth.

00:54:27   But this one seems very straightforward to me. Amazon at this point is a place that sells

00:54:31   you anything that can be sold to people like physical goods. And people think about Amazon

00:54:37   physical stores like how funny that is. Ah, they you know they drove all the booksellers,

00:54:41   the brick and mortar booksellers out of business and now now that they're all dead they'll

00:54:44   buy up all the retail space that they vacated and start their own stores. Haha. It's kind

00:54:48   of morbid. but a store where you sell things, this is an Amazon way to do that.

00:54:55   selling things is Amazon's core competency, right? if anyone's gonna

00:54:58   figure out how to sell things better it would be Amazon. and selling things like

00:55:03   without having to pay cashiers or anything like that, like basically a you

00:55:06   know a store that is just like a big place that you go into and grab stuff

00:55:10   and Amazon figures how to efficiently extract your money, that's Amazon's core

00:55:14   competency too. the king of the stupid one-click patent. like Amazon wants to

00:55:18   make it so you buy things when you sneeze. Like you accidentally buy things. It's so

00:55:22   easy to buy things, it is harder not to buy things. Like you can't even look at it. It's

00:55:26   like don't look at the Amazon web page. You'll accidentally buy something with your retinal

00:55:29   buying thing that sees your gaze lingering on something. Like that's, you know, anyway.

00:55:35   And most people like it. Like it's the reason we all use Amazon. Like they, despite all

00:55:40   the things we may not like about their labor practices and all sorts of stuff like that,

00:55:44   draw of their product, making it convenient to buy things, is a real thing. And so if

00:55:50   anyone's going to bring this to us, I give Amazon a fair shot because this is definitely

00:55:54   in their wheelhouse and I want to go to a store that's like this. I want them to work

00:55:58   on this store over years and years and iterate and iterate and iterate. I don't want them

00:56:01   to give up on it like the Fire Phone or whatever. I want this one to work so that 5-10 years

00:56:06   from now there's one near me that we can just go into and you don't have to wait on checkout

00:56:10   lines anymore. I hope they don't put all the other supermarkets out of business and I doubt

00:56:14   they will, but I'm really rooting for this. And it's not like implausible future, like

00:56:19   hoverboards or whatever. Not the fake ones, the real ones. I think that we're close to

00:56:27   this kind of technology, unlike what I've said about true self-driving cars, which I

00:56:31   think are farther off than everybody else thinks they are, but people really just don't

00:56:34   have the same definition as me about self-driving cars. Anyway, I think this is close enough

00:56:39   to work. The first one's going to be a disaster, whatever, but like work out the kinks, give

00:56:42   it a few years, stick to it, and I'm excited for this.

00:56:46   I would love it if it would ever come to the suburbs where I live, but I think that's unlikely.

00:56:51   I would definitely come to where you live, because rich people are the core market for

00:56:53   this.

00:56:54   Totally want to buy, you know, if someone has prepared foods, like can you imagine how

00:56:57   much this stuff's going to cost you?

00:56:58   No, go into Whole Foods and try to buy a tiny cup of cut up fruit.

00:57:02   It's like each one of them is made out of dollar bills.

00:57:04   That's true.

00:57:05   It's the most expensive food items per pound in the universe.

00:57:08   Two thoughts here.

00:57:09   First of all, I love John making fun of Marco for being where the rich people live, because

00:57:14   John, I think you need to—

00:57:15   I'm in the way the rich people are too.

00:57:16   Okay, exactly.

00:57:17   That's where these doors are going to be.

00:57:18   I'm pretty sure your neighborhood is more upscale than mine, for the record.

00:57:22   It's not.

00:57:23   You live next to Batman.

00:57:24   I live next to the people who work on Batman's staff.

00:57:28   Wow, that was a pissing match I did not expect to be a part of.

00:57:35   Anyway, the other thing I will say, which is now not nearly as funny, but one time I

00:57:41   was at work like two years ago and I'd forgotten to bring a lunch or maybe I didn't bring a

00:57:47   lunch because I thought I was going out to eat.

00:57:49   And so I was without a lunch.

00:57:50   I was launchless.

00:57:51   And I thought to myself, "You know what?

00:57:52   I'm going to treat myself.

00:57:53   I'm going to go to Whole Foods.

00:57:54   I'm going to get me one of those boxes where I go to the hot bar and I put a whole bunch

00:57:58   of stuff in there."

00:57:59   So I went and I got, I think, like a little thing of ribs.

00:58:02   Don't go for the hard-boiled eggs.

00:58:03   They weigh too much.

00:58:04   solid bar tricks.

00:58:05   It's funny you say that because I made the critical mistake of getting mac and cheese,

00:58:10   which is like 18 pounds of mac and cheese for like one bite.

00:58:15   And I went to check out and I put my box of goodies on the scale and it was like literally

00:58:21   $18.

00:58:22   Something like that.

00:58:23   I was about to guess $18 as a joke price.

00:58:25   I was going to guess $27, but I have a gauge on exactly how much food you're piling into

00:58:32   there.

00:58:33   That's the thing about prepared foods.

00:58:34   Like, A, they're really expensive and you kind of understand how they're really expensive.

00:58:37   You start doing the math on they have to pay for the raw ingredients, they have to pay

00:58:41   for the people who have them, and they must have a huge amount of waste because all that

00:58:43   stuff doesn't get sold every day and they got to just dump it or give it away or whatever.

00:58:47   So I understand why it's expensive, but B, it doesn't taste very good.

00:58:52   Like if I was paying a lot of money, if I was going to a restaurant and paying $18 for

00:58:58   I want something that tastes you know that tastes good enough to be worth $18

00:59:02   But that's stuff that's sitting in there under like heat lamps or whatever. I don't like it is it is

00:59:07   It doesn't taste good to me. So I will never buy that I will I will sooner buy

00:59:12   Just the plain ingredients to something and make myself a sandwich out of the loaf of bread and the three ingredients

00:59:20   I got then buy one of their prepared things

00:59:22   Maybe I'm just allergic to prepared foods and I want it to either be freshly made or

00:59:27   something that doesn't need to be fresh like a, you know, I don't know, like a thing

00:59:31   of yogurt or something where it's not like they're making it right there but it's,

00:59:33   you know, it's a sealed prepared food versus they made something for you at some point

00:59:38   in the hopefully not too distant past and then just sits there waiting for you to buy

00:59:42   it.

00:59:43   It seems like they don't know that salt exists at most of these prepared food bars.

00:59:47   Well, you should never be going to these.

00:59:49   You should just be going to a deli.

00:59:50   You have actual delis.

00:59:51   go there and they'll make you a sandwich out of the ingredients.

00:59:54   And those ingredients like that are sitting there in the thing like, you know, my beloved

00:59:57   egg salad and your beloved chicken salad, it's the same deal.

00:59:59   Someone has to prepare that and hopefully in the not too distant past and there's a

01:00:02   lot of waste and they get rid of it.

01:00:04   But it's a difference between the chicken salad sitting in a tub or even like whatever

01:00:10   and chicken salad sandwiches sitting there in a case waiting for you to show up.

01:00:15   When you show up, they make you the chicken salad sandwich with the chicken salad sitting

01:00:18   in the tub, but they make it right there and hand it to you.

01:00:20   And that is so much better than if the sandwich

01:00:23   was sitting there.

01:00:24   - Oh, totally.

01:00:25   I mean, you're talking now, just like our previous discussion

01:00:27   about like Subway, and it's like now you're in the category

01:00:30   of like airport triangle box sandwiches.

01:00:32   And those are just always soggy and never good.

01:00:35   - Yeah, I mean, Whole Foods is hopefully

01:00:36   a little bit better than that.

01:00:37   But there's nothing you can do about that.

01:00:38   You can't have, how long has that rotisserie chicken

01:00:42   been sitting under the heat lamps?

01:00:45   And that's a pretty shelf stable thing

01:00:47   where it's not gonna get too gross,

01:00:48   but it's gross enough not to be worth like the $18

01:00:50   that Casey's paying for the thing.

01:00:52   - I will say though, so I don't usually participate

01:00:56   in the prepared food bar at grocery stores

01:00:58   because as you pointed out,

01:01:00   I typically have more options around

01:01:02   that I can just go to one of those.

01:01:04   However, my crazy indulgence is the pre-chopped vegetables

01:01:09   that come in the produce section.

01:01:13   - The lazy person section.

01:01:14   - Yeah, it's like if I have to cook a meal,

01:01:18   I don't buy everything pre-chopped.

01:01:20   But things that are really tedious,

01:01:21   I will often go that route.

01:01:23   Just grab it, just fine, this is fine.

01:01:24   It's good enough, I'll save 10 minutes.

01:01:26   It's worth the extra--

01:01:28   - Do you not look at the price so you can sleep at night?

01:01:30   'Cause that, it's brutal.

01:01:32   - Some of them I look and I'm like,

01:01:33   all right, even I can't do that.

01:01:34   I cannot justify that.

01:01:36   - You can't stomach $9 for the chopped walnuts.

01:01:38   Just put 'em back.

01:01:39   - Well, nobody would use walnuts

01:01:40   'cause walnuts are terrible.

01:01:41   And they would never cost $9 'cause walnuts are worthless

01:01:43   because they're terrible.

01:01:44   - Yeah, I heard about your walnut hate.

01:01:45   - No, they're just the worst nuts ever.

01:01:47   they cost nothing because nobody likes them.

01:01:49   And yeah, anyway.

01:01:50   - They also look like brains.

01:01:51   - But like, you know, if somebody like pre-chopped,

01:01:53   you know, an onion that I'm gonna throw in anyway,

01:01:56   or like a whole bunch of peppers,

01:01:57   like that's gonna save me time.

01:01:59   And I also hate chopping onions

01:02:00   'cause they make my eyes crazy.

01:02:02   So it's like, all right, like I'll pay an extra

01:02:05   like $2 premium for that.

01:02:06   - By the way, do you get pre-chopped onions?

01:02:08   - Not every time, but like, you know,

01:02:10   if I'm making something that night.

01:02:12   - I have to draw the line at that

01:02:13   because once you break the cell walls

01:02:15   and that stuff starts reacting,

01:02:16   It changes the nature of the product.

01:02:17   You have to do it at time of preparation.

01:02:19   You can't have those sitting there.

01:02:21   - If these are going in a frying pan, who cares?

01:02:23   - No, but you know how long they've been sitting there?

01:02:25   As soon as you chop an onion, the reactions start.

01:02:28   You've got everything mixing with the air,

01:02:30   producing that sulfuric acid with the water in your eyes

01:02:33   that is causing you to tear up.

01:02:35   That reaction starts as soon as you cut that onion.

01:02:38   So I don't want that to start three hours

01:02:41   before I prepare my meal so I can pick up the things.

01:02:44   The limit of our prepared food laziness is,

01:02:47   and I've never done this, but it has been done

01:02:49   and I have accepted that it has been done,

01:02:51   buying pre-shredded Parmesan cheese.

01:02:53   I would rather shred it myself,

01:02:54   'cause the pre-shredded adds like $5 a pound

01:02:57   or something obscene to the price

01:02:59   of the already very expensive Parmesan cheese.

01:03:01   - I buy that.

01:03:03   - You buy the, yeah, of course you buy the cheese.

01:03:04   - It's some kind of like fancy, like imported aged.

01:03:07   - No, it's just Parmigiano-Reggiano.

01:03:09   There's only one thing.

01:03:10   It is a specific product.

01:03:12   This is what you should buy if you want.

01:03:14   No, there's different grades though. There's different age lengths and there's like whether

01:03:18   you get like DOP official one or some crazy one.

01:03:21   No, only the official one. Everything else that is not stamped on the outside as the

01:03:24   real thing is, I don't think Helplitz even sells it and nobody should sell it and nobody

01:03:27   should buy it. Just the question is whether do you bring home a big chunk of this hard

01:03:31   cheese and grade it yourself or do you buy it pre-graded. And the pre-graded adds tremendously

01:03:36   to the cost and I don't like how they grade it. They grade it too fine. I like it to be

01:03:39   a little bit thicker little pieces than them. That's as far as I'll go.

01:03:44   Nope, I buy the pre-grated. I think it's something like 12 bucks a pound.

01:03:48   No, it's way more than that. Way more than that. Ungraded is 15 to 20 a pound. Ungraded.

01:03:54   Do you want me to go look?

01:03:55   Go ahead, go look.

01:03:56   All right, one sec.

01:03:57   Is this really happening? What has the show turned into?

01:04:00   I don't know the price of many things, but I know the price of Parmesan cheese. It is

01:04:04   a staple in our house the same as milk and butter and eggs.

01:04:09   Parmesan was the cheese you had me shred for the pizzas, and then you utterly shamed me

01:04:13   for my inability to shred?

01:04:14   - No, can you not identify cheese?

01:04:17   - No, that was mozzarella, that was mozzarella, wasn't it?

01:04:19   - Yes.

01:04:20   - My bad.

01:04:21   - What I tell the kids is pizza cheese.

01:04:24   - I was so scarred by the experience of you shaming me

01:04:26   for my inability to shred appropriately.

01:04:29   - All right, I'm back.

01:04:30   - I'm gonna predict $19 a pound.

01:04:32   - That is exactly right.

01:04:33   (laughs)

01:04:35   It is the Ambrosi brand, Parmesan or Reggiano DOP,

01:04:39   Grated, imported from Italy, 19 bucks a pound.

01:04:43   Really fine grated, right?

01:04:44   Really fine?

01:04:45   Like they're tiny little wispy things?

01:04:48   That's too fine for me.

01:04:49   I'm sorry.

01:04:50   I want it a little bit thicker than that.

01:04:51   But yeah, sometimes if you're in a hurry and you realize you don't have it and it takes

01:04:55   time to do it, someone will come and arrive with a pre-threaded thing.

01:04:59   And I always keep it separate from my real cheese, which is in the dedicated Tupperware

01:05:02   container in the fridge.

01:05:03   I don't want to mix them together.

01:05:05   But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

01:05:07   But that's it.

01:05:08   - Pre-cut vegetables, no.

01:05:09   Pre-cut onions, definitely no.

01:05:12   My wife gets to pre-cut fruit all the time,

01:05:14   which I can't stand.

01:05:15   I just try desperately not to look at the price,

01:05:17   and I'm just like, I wanna peel it off without looking at it

01:05:19   so I just don't see like $12.99 on this like tub of like

01:05:22   sad looking watermelon and cantaloupe pieces.

01:05:25   Like $12.99, really, really?

01:05:28   - Yeah, I mean like certain things it works better than,

01:05:30   it was like watermelon, I don't buy pre-cut

01:05:32   because it is so expensive,

01:05:33   and whole watermelons cost basically nothing.

01:05:36   - Right. - It's kind of shocking

01:05:37   how little whole watermelons cost per pound.

01:05:38   He's like, "How did these even get transported here?"

01:05:41   - Yeah, as soon as you cut it into cubes,

01:05:42   it becomes like gold.

01:05:43   It's dipped in printer ink.

01:05:45   (laughing)

01:05:47   The only substance on earth more expensive

01:05:49   than pre-cut fruit at Whole Foods.

01:05:51   - Certain things are actually worth getting pre-cut

01:05:54   and certain things work better.

01:05:54   So one of the things,

01:05:56   if you need shredded Brussels sprouts

01:06:00   for a salad or something like that,

01:06:01   they sell those in a little box now and it's pretty good.

01:06:04   And you can't tell, they taste just as good

01:06:06   if you would have chopped fresh Brussels sprouts

01:06:08   and it takes way less time,

01:06:09   and here you have shredded Brussels sprouts

01:06:11   and it isn't that expensive.

01:06:12   So certain things it's worth it,

01:06:14   but obviously not everything, not watermelon.

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01:07:33   [Music]

01:07:36   Not to ruin the Accidental Food podcast, but

01:07:40   late-breaking news. Microsoft is bringing Windows desktop apps

01:07:44   to mobile ARM processors. So this is sort of kind of Windows RT,

01:07:48   but not. Windows 10 on ARM, this is from the Verge, is arriving thanks to a

01:07:52   partnership with Qualcomm. Initially, Microsoft will support the Qualcomm

01:07:55   Snapdragon 835 processors, and laptops are expected to be the first

01:07:59   devices we'll see in the market next year. Microsoft is enabling Windows 10

01:08:02   Windows 10 to support ARM chips directly by building an emulator into the operating system.

01:08:08   Devices will be able to run x86 Win32 applications, but it will not support x64.

01:08:14   >> This is part of that story we had on a past show. And the rumor was that it was going to be

01:08:19   ARM64 would emulate x86-64 stuff, and that was going to be in the future. I don't know if this

01:08:27   This is a separate story where they're doing 32 now and 64 later, but the power savings

01:08:32   that they get from having laptops with ARM processors in them is not going to be helped

01:08:37   by emulating x86.

01:08:38   So true.

01:08:39   Interesting, though.

01:08:40   It's certainly interesting, because we've been talking on and off about the Macs on

01:08:45   ARM, and in fact, I should plug Upgrade had a wonderful episode this week where Jason

01:08:51   and Snell made some really fascinating points on ARM Macs

01:08:54   and kind of what the position of the Mac is.

01:08:57   I won't try to summarize his position,

01:09:00   but I really agreed with a lot of it

01:09:02   and you should take a listen to that show.

01:09:04   - Agreed, that was excellent.

01:09:05   - Yeah, but this is somewhat interesting news

01:09:09   'cause Windows RT from everything I understood

01:09:11   was kinda crappy because nothing was cross-compiled for it.

01:09:15   So yeah, in and of itself it was fine

01:09:17   and maybe the battery life was good

01:09:18   And I think maybe those were the surfaces,

01:09:21   Surfy that didn't have fans, if memory serves.

01:09:25   But anyways, but nobody could run any apps on it

01:09:27   'cause nobody cross-compiled for ARM.

01:09:29   So this could solve that problem.

01:09:31   But I also agree with you, Jon,

01:09:32   that it's not necessarily going to help things

01:09:35   in terms of battery life if you're emulating in 0x86.

01:09:39   - I think they want people to compile their apps

01:09:43   for Windows for ARM.

01:09:44   Like that's what they want to happen.

01:09:45   That's why they tried to get that with Windows RT

01:09:47   and it didn't.

01:09:48   So it's like, all right, try number two.

01:09:50   What if we have emulation?

01:09:51   Then more people will buy them because they won't feel like--

01:09:54   they're trying to solve the chicken and egg situation.

01:09:56   People won't buy it if there's no apps,

01:09:57   and people won't make apps if no one buys them.

01:09:59   So like, all right, we'll put the emulation in,

01:10:00   and hopefully that will trick people into buying them.

01:10:03   I don't want to say trick, but hopefully that

01:10:04   will motivate people to buy them.

01:10:05   Oh, yeah, no, you can totally run your existing

01:10:07   copy of Office.

01:10:08   It'll be fine, really.

01:10:10   And then once we get everyone to buy them,

01:10:11   then app developers will say, your app

01:10:13   can run better on their cool ARM-powered Ultrabook thing

01:10:18   because yours will be compiled natively for ARM

01:10:19   and that will give you a selling advantage.

01:10:21   I don't know, do people still buy software in Windows

01:10:23   other than Adobe software and AutoCAD?

01:10:26   Anyway, should make fun of that

01:10:28   because they probably have a more robust

01:10:30   professional application ecosystem

01:10:31   than Apple does at this point.

01:10:33   - Probably.

01:10:33   - But yeah, so this is, I mean,

01:10:38   it's a pretty smart attempt to try to solve this problem.

01:10:41   Now why Microsoft is so seemingly desperate

01:10:45   to get Windows off of x86, I don't know.

01:10:47   Maybe like this is the slow divorce of Wintel, right?

01:10:51   Where Microsoft wants to be everywhere on all platforms

01:10:55   and Intel CPUs are expensive compared to ARM ones

01:10:59   of supposedly equivalent ballpark power.

01:11:02   And Microsoft's not making its own ARM CPUs at this point,

01:11:05   but maybe partnering with Qualcomm

01:11:07   is a different power balance than partnering with Intel.

01:11:11   And I don't know, but this definitely seems like

01:11:13   a very slow change happening.

01:11:16   over in a mostly unwatched corner of the market

01:11:20   'cause everyone's looking at mobile phones and stuff

01:11:23   and not many people are looking at laptops and PCs

01:11:26   these days except to be depressed about them.

01:11:28   But I wish them luck because anything that changes

01:11:33   the existing fairly boring status quo is good

01:11:35   or even if it just motivates Intel to do a better job,

01:11:37   that helps everybody.

01:11:38   - I think this is worth thinking about.

01:11:41   It's like we've talked for forever about what about our Macs

01:11:46   And the idea here is that, well, Intel is not doing

01:11:51   what Apple wants it to do fast enough

01:11:54   or achieving enough efficiency or whatever,

01:11:57   and that maybe ARM chips that Apple can make itself

01:11:59   would be better and everything.

01:12:01   And it's interesting to see basically now Microsoft

01:12:04   seemingly possibly making the same hedged bet here

01:12:07   of like, you know, Intel's not really working that well

01:12:10   for us either, which actually just means,

01:12:13   you know, Intel's just not working that well, period.

01:12:16   Well they're working but they charge a lot of money.

01:12:18   Like the Intel is still able to charge pretty big margins compared to what the ARM vendors

01:12:28   charge for their things.

01:12:30   And it's one of the reasons people always say that the Mac laptops cost so much because

01:12:34   if you, people do these silly bill of material things where they're adding up the retail

01:12:39   prices which is not how this stuff works.

01:12:41   But anyway they try it at the price and they realize price wise the Intel CPU is a surprisingly

01:12:45   large portion or the you know the the chips from Intel are a surprisingly

01:12:49   large portion of the price of a laptop and that was more it was more pronounced

01:12:55   when there was more parts inside a laptop at this point there's not much in

01:12:57   there anymore except for Intel CPUs some supporting chips a big battery a screen

01:13:03   and half of a keyboard that's all that's all that's left in these things but there

01:13:07   used to be all sorts of other stuff in there was you know the hard drive and

01:13:10   even the SSD thrown into the mix but I think it's still the case that Intel's

01:13:14   Apple's margins are would be the envy of any ARM vendor and especially in the case of Apple

01:13:19   where Apple is doing the design essentially they've got the ARM license they do the design

01:13:24   they pay someone to fab it for them that relationship is much more straightforward and it's what

01:13:27   Apple is used to like working with a supplier to build a thing I'll tell you what to build

01:13:32   you don't you don't you know you don't have to design anything you're gonna build this

01:13:36   and here it is and give them you know the their chip design and they just fab it for

01:13:40   them and I know there's more to it that it's not a matter of just like taking a design

01:13:43   printing it like there is more to it but that is that is a relationship where you

01:13:48   don't have to pay for the margin that Intel is charging you for like we

01:13:51   designed this whole chip and we designed all these things and we're not just a

01:13:55   dumb fab we're selling you this value-added chip so I'm putting in the

01:13:58   chat room that Intel has 60% gross margins which are which is pretty darn

01:14:02   good for someone who says physical things instead of selling software so I

01:14:07   don't think Intel is not doing its job and I think they are trying to serve

01:14:12   of Apple's needs, but they're still charging more and from Apple's perspective, Apple

01:14:21   can't control their schedules to the degree that they control their own schedules for

01:14:24   their A-series chips. So there is a definite reason to go in that direction long-term anyway.

01:14:31   So here's a question. One of the concerns I have with Apple, sorry to turn this back

01:14:40   into Apple complaints, just for a minute, I promise.

01:14:43   One of the concerns I have with Apple is that,

01:14:45   obviously, I think everybody, even people who think

01:14:47   they're doing fine, can generally agree

01:14:49   that they're also stretched very thin,

01:14:51   and that a lot of their products are having

01:14:53   to take a backseat to something,

01:14:56   whether it's the car or the idea that the iPhone

01:14:59   is progressing really fast even though it seems not to be,

01:15:01   or whatever else, it's like, everything seems

01:15:03   to be taking the backseat to something.

01:15:05   So my question is, when the next big shifts happen

01:15:10   in important markets to Apple,

01:15:12   so things like computers, phones, tablets,

01:15:16   when big shifts happen, like for instance,

01:15:18   if everyone moves to arms processors for their PC computers,

01:15:23   like you know, not just tablets and phones,

01:15:26   but like for full-size computers and laptops,

01:15:28   in Apple's current state,

01:15:32   where it's kind of like their immune system is strained,

01:15:34   Like, they're like, I mean, it's not a great analogy,

01:15:37   but like, they can barely hold together what they have now,

01:15:40   like keeping things on their current path,

01:15:42   because they're doing so much.

01:15:43   And obviously there's a lot of resources being devoted

01:15:46   to like some other future projects,

01:15:49   but like stuff like the Mac,

01:15:50   and it seemed like it's just like barely holding on.

01:15:53   And there was the awfully concerning rumor today

01:15:56   that the next iPhone might just add a red color

01:16:00   and still have the exact same general case and design

01:16:03   - Now, aren't they saying that it was also gonna be out

01:16:06   at the same time as the new Allglass thing,

01:16:09   or was that trying to say like next year,

01:16:11   just a new color, and the year after that,

01:16:12   the Allglass one?

01:16:13   - I believe it was the latter, but anyway,

01:16:15   which would be concerning, but anyway,

01:16:17   we have one thing that said that, so who knows?

01:16:19   But anyway, so given the way it appears

01:16:22   as though Apple is having a hard time keeping up

01:16:24   with other product lines already as it is,

01:16:27   when the next big shift happens,

01:16:29   Do you think they will be able to go with it,

01:16:33   to write it, to adapt it?

01:16:34   Or are they gonna fall behind?

01:16:36   Because they won't be prepared,

01:16:37   because they won't be devoting enough resources

01:16:39   to these areas.

01:16:40   Microsoft right now doesn't have a successful phone business

01:16:44   to worry about or to manage or to take forward.

01:16:48   So Microsoft is pouring everything they can

01:16:50   into what they do have, which is PCs.

01:16:53   They do well there, they're pouring everything they have.

01:16:55   That's why we're getting interesting new developments,

01:16:58   like the Surface Studio, and like who knows which of these things will take off, if any,

01:17:02   but like they are there, they are ready to adopt whatever comes out now. But Apple isn't.

01:17:07   Like Apple is seemingly like keeping the Mac kind of coasting for the most part and not

01:17:12   doing a whole lot of new stuff with it and not really keeping it up to date, not really

01:17:16   keeping it competitive, kind of just like sitting back and letting off the gas. And

01:17:22   this isn't just the Mac. I would say this definitely applies to the Mac. It sort of

01:17:26   of applies to the iPad, although there's not a lot of direct competitors anymore, really,

01:17:30   unless you count laptops, which I'm not sure I would anymore. And on the iPhone, it's kind

01:17:35   of, it seems like they might be letting off the gas a little bit, honestly. Obviously,

01:17:40   we'll see what happens next year, but it certainly looks so far that, like, things are progressing

01:17:45   more slowly than before. Will Apple be ready for the next big shift, and will they actually

01:17:53   them or will they lead them anymore, the way they have been for the last decade or so?

01:17:59   Or are they too busy building cars and stuff?

01:18:01   I don't know about any of that. I think basing your thoughts on the premise of their

01:18:08   stepping off of the gas, I understand how you come to that conclusion. I wouldn't

01:18:15   be so fast to come to that conclusion. In fact, I would almost go so far as to say that

01:18:22   A lot of silence from Apple may even be indicating that they're standing on the gas harder than

01:18:27   they ever have before.

01:18:28   Now, truth be told, it's hard for me to make that argument with a straight face given what's

01:18:33   been going on with, say, the Mac Pro, but one point does not align make.

01:18:39   And obviously, none of us know one way or the other.

01:18:41   It very well could be that you're right, Marco, but if I were to take a read of the tea leaves,

01:18:45   I would say that it is quite possible that big things are afoot and we're just not hearing

01:18:51   about it because guess what, Apple never tells us about these things until it's all over.

01:18:56   So about the specific shift that you were talking about, like what if everyone goes

01:18:59   to ARM, for that specific change, I think Apple would be fine because if that happened,

01:19:06   Apple would see it as an efficiency.

01:19:08   It would be the last little bit Apple needs to get to kick it over the line to say, "Okay,

01:19:13   I guess we will transition."

01:19:14   Because we always talk about all the things that are keeping them from transitioning.

01:19:16   Is the Mac even worth this big expensive transition and this disruption to users and the dev tools

01:19:20   and like, like, is it even worth it to do that for the little old Mac?

01:19:24   Probably like that's probably one of the biggest things stopping our Macs at this point is

01:19:27   that the Mac itself is not worth that kind of investment.

01:19:30   But if everyone else switches over anyway, suddenly is the Mac even worth it?

01:19:34   Like, well, everyone else is going that way anyway.

01:19:36   And so we might as well just get on that train and we're already designing new A-series CPUs

01:19:40   every year.

01:19:41   We're already really good at it and we're going to make that CPU anyway.

01:19:43   And the CPU for the next iPhone is going to be plenty powerful for all but the most powerful

01:19:47   laptops.

01:19:48   add more cores, you know like it's an efficiency that they're ready to grab

01:19:52   and a control that they want anyway, any little bit that kicks them over into

01:19:56   doing that I think they would see as okay well that now that decision has been

01:20:00   taken out of our hands and they would leap at it because they do get

01:20:02   efficiencies out of it. Now we don't have to deal with two things we just have one

01:20:05   architecture, we control our own destinies, all the advantages of the arm

01:20:08   stuff come in. So for that specific change I think they would be fine. For all the

01:20:11   other changes you said you know that they're stretched thin, well as we

01:20:15   discussed in the past few shows they're stretched less thin than they used to be

01:20:18   They're not making Wi-Fi routers anymore. They're not making screens anymore. They're not making the Mac Pro and the Mac Mini anymore apparently

01:20:24   so they are

01:20:27   condensing and

01:20:29   All these you know all the dark matter the case he was talking about like we have no idea what the hell they're doing except for

01:20:33   the self-driving car stuff

01:20:35   You know their augmented reality thing is that related to the car thing where they're displaying stuff on the dashboard or whatever like

01:20:42   The way to be ready for in Apple the typical Apple way to be ready for these changes to be the one that brings them

01:20:48   on so presumably app has all sorts of experiments going on with AR and VR and

01:20:52   machine learning and self-driving car stuff and you know like

01:20:57   Those all those efforts are exactly what they should be doing to be ready for the next change and to perhaps be the one that

01:21:02   Initiates the change but that doesn't help us out here because we don't know about that stuff except for like

01:21:07   You know the car project there is too big to hide at this point

01:21:10   And that is you know the rumors about it just being about self-driving technology

01:21:13   I think the most concerning about thing about all those projects is that I've said this a million times. I'll say it again

01:21:19   They increasingly rely on

01:21:22   integration with cloud computing and Apple still scrappy at it and

01:21:26   They're getting better really slowly

01:21:28   Probably not even keeping pace with everybody else

01:21:31   so there are very few precious few things that you can do that don't involve some kind of cloud thing and

01:21:36   Apple's just not shown to be good for that. So the next big thing is cloud machine learning in the cloud

01:21:41   it's hard to envision Apple even keeping up with the Joneses let alone being a pioneer in that field because you know, they're

01:21:48   Maybe though again, maybe they'll surprise us with a brand new version of Siri. That's way better

01:21:52   But I think they're mostly getting their butt kicked in this area

01:21:55   Self-driving cars and that type of tech does also does not strike me as something that's an Apple's wheelhouse

01:22:01   I don't really think I would not be comforted by self-driving car saw her written by Apple being installed into my thing

01:22:06   Especially considering you know, I mean all they've done is carplay and it hasn't you know, it's fine whatever but

01:22:13   The gap between that and also drive the car for me and do a cool AR display on

01:22:19   HUD on on my windshield

01:22:21   Such a huge gap, but whatever, you know, like whatever the next big thing is

01:22:26   Apple should be out there trying to find it and the act of trying to find it appears invisible

01:22:31   For a company like Apple. We have no idea what it is

01:22:34   the stretch thin feeling comes from

01:22:37   You know, you know do that R&D do that experimental thing investigate things kill a project if it doesn't like it's working out do all

01:22:45   that stuff

01:22:46   But you also have to have one eye on the rest of your business and we mostly complain about the max

01:22:51   We like the Mac

01:22:51   I think they are definitely not stepping off the gas on the iPhone in all areas except for perhaps

01:22:57   Industrial design and that could be just because they keep grabbing for that whatever the next all glass phone is

01:23:01   But if you look at how the internals of the iPhone have improved enter after generation

01:23:07   We would kill for that kind of improvement in the Mac

01:23:09   Every a series ship is so much better than the past one the cameras get better

01:23:13   the battery life gets better plus or minus apples needs to thin stuff down like

01:23:18   They are you know, the iPhone is so clearly their main product and they improve it in ways that

01:23:23   We can only dream of in the Mac world. So I think that's doing fine

01:23:27   I think a lot of it is superficial like oh you're gonna make it the same shape again. That's boring. That's a problem

01:23:31   That's a marketing problem. That's a PR problem

01:23:33   That's a problem for being able to sell these things to people

01:23:35   But if you view it as like how much money did they invest in making the iPhone better?

01:23:39   Just because they don't have a new case because they they keep trying to go for that cool wireless charging all-glass

01:23:44   Whatever magic phone like I can't get it year after year

01:23:47   I gave them a pass on that because what's inside the phones is just getting better so much faster.

01:23:52   So, you know, I'm not concerned about the iPhone business, not even concerned about the iPad

01:23:58   business, except for the fact that they don't seem to be willing to field any competitors to

01:24:01   something like the Surface Book, whether that's an iOS device or not. But it just gets back to

01:24:05   us whining about our Macs, but we're all. That's true. Now, did you guys, I didn't have a

01:24:10   chance to read this, but I saw some headlines and the chat rooms brought this up as well.

01:24:14   courts had a piece entitled "Inside the Secret Meeting, Where Apple Revealed the State of

01:24:19   its AI Research."

01:24:20   And I guess there was an invite-only lunch at an industry AI conference where Apple showed

01:24:27   a bunch of slides, a couple of which, or a handful of which, courts got their hands on.

01:24:32   And so one of them says, "Machine learning research summary."

01:24:35   And there's several different segments that Apple's apparently looking at.

01:24:39   Health and vital signs, volumetric detection of LIDAR, which to me means self-driving car,

01:24:44   Prediction with structured outputs, and there's a picture of cars driving.

01:24:47   Image processing and colorization.

01:24:49   Intelligent assistant and language modeling and activity recognition.

01:24:53   And then later on, I didn't get a chance to read into this much, but there are a couple

01:24:57   of graphs where at a glance it seems to hint that Apple's GPUs are being used for machine

01:25:05   learning and are considerably quicker than equivalent Amazon AWS offerings.

01:25:10   Now, again, I've only glanced at this, I might be butchering the details, but it certainly

01:25:16   seems that, at least in an academic sense, maybe Apple's machine learning chops aren't

01:25:24   so bad after all.

01:25:25   Now, to be fair, that has to get applied and executed upon.

01:25:30   And certainly, here we are giggling but also crying about keyboard text replacement.

01:25:37   so you do need to apply all this machine learning at some juncture. But the academic R&D stuff

01:25:44   seems like they might be keeping up, maybe even making improvements.

01:25:48   John "Slick" Baum: The historic complaint about all this type of academic research stuff at Apple

01:25:53   is that academics want to publish because it's vital for their continued career as an academic,

01:25:58   and Apple doesn't want you to publish. And so the fact that they're presenting this is maybe a

01:26:03   change in you know a slight lessening of Apple's incredible drive for secrecy

01:26:08   that you can't get the best academics to come work for you if you won't let them

01:26:12   do stuff like this because it's vital for their career to be able to do this

01:26:15   you can't just take them and hide them away like they do with the industrial

01:26:17   designers who Johnny I've only let's out once a year and the rest of the time

01:26:21   they spend in that room they sleep under black sheets right and then in the

01:26:24   morning they just come out anyway it's difficult to get people to work for you

01:26:29   if you do that Google has a much more open environment Google is probably the

01:26:33   leader in this because they have so many freaking PhDs and they put the stuff to

01:26:38   use in the magic that is every Google thing that you just type something into

01:26:42   and it figures out what the hell you mean. I mean Google search being the best

01:26:44   example. I still, it is still not worn off to me that I can type in queries and

01:26:50   Google finds results and like it is I've long since gotten past the point where I

01:26:55   where I can even understand how Google figured out what I was talking about and

01:26:58   gave me the thing I wanted but it's like the magic of big data it's the magic of

01:27:02   you know that they're doing it for real and Apple all we have from them to demonstrate their chops is Siri which

01:27:09   has its ups and downs but

01:27:12   charitable yeah, yeah like

01:27:15   It's not no one no one except someone who works for Apple is gonna put it as the leader in this

01:27:20   They're all kind of silly all those voices since they're kind of silly

01:27:22   But Siri had such a lead and everyone caught up really quickly and Google just seems to be on top of this stuff

01:27:27   So I hope I hope it's true that Apple is doing it

01:27:29   I think it is table stakes in the future to have competency in this area.

01:27:34   So Apple has to just be doing this just to keep up.

01:27:36   I don't know if this means that there's something going to be the leader in it or whatever,

01:27:39   but it seems like they're learning what it takes to attract those people to come work

01:27:43   for Apple and put them on projects.

01:27:46   And hopefully, like Casey said, something comes out of it.

01:27:49   You have to make a product eventually.

01:27:51   Doing this research is important, and if you don't do this research, you'll never be able

01:27:53   to make a product because we're in that phase now with machine learning where it's not commoditized

01:27:58   at this point, you have to have yourself in house to do it.

01:28:02   I'm not entirely sure that the best application of all this technology is self-driving car

01:28:08   tech, which seems to be the path they're going, which is a hard problem, and someone's gonna

01:28:12   be first, and maybe it'll be Apple, and maybe they'll be known as the company that puts

01:28:15   self-driving software into all of our cars, but for now we just have rumors and a lot

01:28:20   of money spent, and no announced anything from Apple, and all this stuff could be canned

01:28:28   at any time or use for an entirely different purpose like Google Goggles or some other

01:28:34   weird AR thing, who knows.

01:28:36   So from this article, "Machine learning scientists have long criticized Apple for

01:28:40   its reluctance to contribute back to the research community.

01:28:43   During the presentation, which served to bring a small, select group of researchers up to

01:28:46   speed with Apple's efforts, some individual Salakhindov – I'm sorry, I didn't practice

01:28:55   that before the show because I didn't know I was going to be talking about this – a

01:28:57   A prominent AI researcher himself at Carnegie Mellon said that Apple would begin to publish

01:29:01   its research and make a greater effort to work with the research community, according

01:29:05   to attendees, just like you said, John.

01:29:07   Additionally, Oliver Cameron, who is self-describing as the lead of the self-driving car team at

01:29:13   Udacity, had a series of five tweets, which we'll put in the show notes, which begins

01:29:18   with him saying, "Hey, this article, this court's article deserves more attention."

01:29:24   And he says, "Apple's clearly 1,000% working on autonomous vehicles powered by machine

01:29:29   learning."

01:29:30   See volumetric detection of LIDAR in that slide.

01:29:33   They may be building custom GPUs for machine learning, perhaps only internally.

01:29:38   They also have a custom image dataset twice the size of ImageNet, which I'm not entirely

01:29:42   clear what that is, but I'm assuming it's—

01:29:44   That's a public set of images for training neural networks to recognize things.

01:29:47   There you go.

01:29:48   Thanks.

01:29:49   benchmarked MXNet, which is Amazon's framework of choice on their GPUs and custom image data

01:29:55   set and not TensorFlow. So TLDR, this is again still Oliver, TLDR, the new Apple is catching

01:30:02   up fast in machine learning. And this is from someone who theoretically doesn't have any

01:30:06   vested interest in saying such things.

01:30:08   **Matt Stauffer** This phrase says "catching up fast," not vaulting

01:30:10   to the lead or leaving the competition behind. But it is the minimum bar that you have to

01:30:16   because it's so clear that this type of technology is coming to the point where it can do useful things.

01:30:21   And if you don't have this capability in-house, if you just wait around until it becomes like...

01:30:27   until Amazon is essentially vending the seventh version of this as part of their web services offering,

01:30:33   until it becomes commoditized, it's a big advantage to be able to do it in-house.

01:30:37   In some respects, this is part of the thing that made Google into Google,

01:30:41   is they had a good idea for a search algorithm

01:30:46   and they eventually were faced with the problem of scale

01:30:49   of how to build their data centers

01:30:50   and how to do all this stuff.

01:30:51   And they did a lot of stuff in-house

01:30:54   that for a long time gave Google abilities

01:30:59   that other companies didn't have

01:31:00   to scale out to worldwide data centers

01:31:03   to give good performance to everybody

01:31:04   to do these really complicated things.

01:31:06   Right?

01:31:07   And they had to build a lot of that in-house

01:31:09   and they had to figure all this out.

01:31:11   And eventually it started to become commoditized to the point where Google itself is vending

01:31:15   some of its cloud services and of course Amazon has its web services and so many things are

01:31:19   built on that.

01:31:20   And so now it is no longer really a competitive advantage or at least not as big as it used

01:31:25   to be to be really good at setting up your data centers and having a strategy for redundancy

01:31:31   and being close to everybody in the world and dealing with large volumes of data.

01:31:35   Because it's been figured out enough that if you want to get off the ground you can

01:31:40   bootstrap yourself onto one of these things

01:31:42   and not have to have this in-house.

01:31:44   But machine learning is still at the point

01:31:45   where if you wanna do this,

01:31:46   if you wanna participate in this at all,

01:31:48   you have to do it in-house

01:31:50   because nobody has got it figured out and commoditized

01:31:52   to the point where it's no longer an advantage.

01:31:54   So Apple has to do this.

01:31:55   Microsoft has to do this.

01:31:57   Google has to do it and Amazon,

01:31:58   they all have to do it and Facebook for that matter.

01:32:02   And it's kind of a, you might think it's like,

01:32:04   isn't this like duplication of effort,

01:32:05   but that's just called competition.

01:32:06   So they all have to be doing it.

01:32:08   And if Apple wasn't doing it, we should be really concerned.

01:32:12   So there is a degree.

01:32:13   It's like if they weren't doing it at all,

01:32:14   we should be super concerned.

01:32:16   What we're concerned about now is, OK, they're doing it,

01:32:18   but are they doing it well enough

01:32:19   to keep up with the big boys?

01:32:21   And it seems like probably, yeah.

01:32:23   But again, the proof will be in the products.

01:32:26   They may be keeping up with the basic research,

01:32:28   but when does that translate into making Siri better?

01:32:33   Or is this all just for self-driving car tech,

01:32:35   because that's a big bet.

01:32:38   even the bet that Apple will be involved in all of that

01:32:41   because it seems like Apple's not making its own car.

01:32:43   And if people who do make cars

01:32:45   don't want Apple's technology,

01:32:46   then all Apple's work is pointless

01:32:49   because if the car companies don't want it,

01:32:52   you know, Tesla doesn't want it,

01:32:53   Honda doesn't want it, Ford don't want it, right,

01:32:55   then who is the customer for this?

01:32:57   Apple will have this great self-driving car technology

01:32:58   and they can use it to power like the shiny white go-karts

01:33:01   that you use to go around the spaceship campus.

01:33:02   Great.

01:33:03   Like that's it.

01:33:04   You know, you gotta get this into a car.

01:33:06   And if you're not gonna make a car,

01:33:07   you better convince somebody that they should buy your thing

01:33:09   instead of, you know, because it's not like

01:33:11   the car companies are sitting on their hands

01:33:13   waiting for a technology company

01:33:14   to offer them self-driving tech.

01:33:16   Like they're not waiting on Apple,

01:33:17   they're all doing their own things.

01:33:19   So, I don't know, that concerns me a little bit.

01:33:22   - So which Mac do you think the,

01:33:25   all this like AI and GPU development,

01:33:28   which Mac are the people using who are developing those?

01:33:31   - I'm sure they're doing all on PCs.

01:33:32   - You don't think they're doing it on a MacBook Pro?

01:33:35   Well, if they are building their own custom GPUs,

01:33:38   then it's like rack-mounted servers.

01:33:40   It's not like they're using X-Servers or whatever.

01:33:41   But as they're sitting in front of their computers,

01:33:44   at a certain point when you're doing research,

01:33:46   all you're using is a fancy terminal window

01:33:48   to connect to the bigger computers

01:33:49   where all the real action's happening.

01:33:50   - True.

01:33:51   - And I imagine that's the case.

01:33:53   'Cause you're not connecting to a computer.

01:33:55   It's like the giant Mesos clusters or whatever.

01:33:57   So it doesn't really matter.

01:33:58   They could be using a MacBook One.

01:34:01   It's not, the computing power of the thing

01:34:03   you're sitting in front of doesn't matter as much.

01:34:04   Well, they are typing though.

01:34:06   - Yeah, they are typing, but I don't know,

01:34:08   maybe they have people to do that.

01:34:09   Isn't that what graduate students are for, the typing?

01:34:11   (laughing)

01:34:12   Wow.

01:34:13   - All right, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:34:15   Pingdom, Automattic, and Betterment.

01:34:17   We will see you next week.

01:34:19   (upbeat music)

01:34:22   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:34:24   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:34:26   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:34:28   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:34:29   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:34:31   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:34:32   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:34:34   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, cause it was accidental.

01:34:39   It was accidental.

01:34:42   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

01:34:47   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:34:52   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:35:01   ♪ Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:35:06   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

01:35:10   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:35:12   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:35:14   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:35:15   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:35:17   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:35:19   ♪ So long ♪

01:35:21   - I've got nothing for the after show.

01:35:23   - Well, I still haven't watched New Top Gear episode two

01:35:26   'cause you told me not to.

01:35:27   - Yeah, neither have I.

01:35:28   Yeah, you totally bummed me out for watching it.

01:35:31   Did you watch three?

01:35:32   - No, not yet.

01:35:33   So are you suggesting that I skip two

01:35:35   and watch the rest of the season

01:35:37   and then go back and watch two?

01:35:38   - You'll miss out on all the continuity.

01:35:40   (laughing)

01:35:41   - I don't even know what's happening in episode three.

01:35:43   - There is actually a little bit of continuity

01:35:46   as it turns out, but that being said,

01:35:49   if you're pressed for time

01:35:51   and/or don't wanna get briefly depressed, skip episode two.

01:35:55   And then episode three actually I think has been

01:35:58   Mostly a return to what's right in the world

01:36:00   It's like the only podcast where I'm not talking about Westworld because I guess neither one of you are watching it. Nope. That's a show

01:36:06   Yeah hard to believe it was a game or a movie. Yeah. No you you should

01:36:11   Don't you have yeah, you have the HBO thing

01:36:14   You should you and Tiff might want to try it like the season's over

01:36:16   It's all ten episodes are sitting there waiting for you to see it

01:36:18   There's not gonna be a new season for like a year

01:36:20   So sometime during the winter if you're bored and want to try a new show

01:36:23   I don't know I go this is not really up your guys alley, but I mean whatever

01:36:27   - I thought it was science fiction.

01:36:27   - You might as well try it.

01:36:28   It is, it's sci-fi.

01:36:29   - Well, yeah, that's not gonna work.

01:36:30   - The main problem is that anything on HBO Go right now,

01:36:34   we basically can't watch because the Apple TV app

01:36:37   for HBO Go has decided to just not work anymore.

01:36:40   - That's great.

01:36:41   So that's why you were air playing from your iPad before

01:36:43   when you mentioned it, right?

01:36:44   - That's why.

01:36:44   - The reason you're doing that is 'cause the Apple TV

01:36:46   thing doesn't work.

01:36:46   - Yeah, like, oh man, the Apple TV is such a mess.

01:36:49   I don't wanna complain anymore about Apple stuff today,

01:36:52   so I'm just, if you don't have anything nice to say,

01:36:55   you don't say it at all.

01:36:55   So I'm not going to be talking about the Apple TV

01:36:58   in this after show.

01:36:59   (laughs)

01:37:01   - I love mine, mine works great.

01:37:02   Now I don't do terribly complex things with it,

01:37:05   but Plex works great,

01:37:06   the photos, like Screen Saver works great.

01:37:09   - The Screen Saver works great?

01:37:11   - It does, I'm serious, no I'm serious,

01:37:13   'cause it doesn't on my Mac.

01:37:14   - That's a nice Screen Saver.

01:37:16   I've got that, hey we can get that out of the show notes.

01:37:18   It's been in the show notes for what, two years now?

01:37:21   Oh I deleted it, did I delete it?

01:37:22   Yeah, I had in the top of our document for maybe two years, maybe more, a link to be

01:37:30   able to download the Mac OS version of the Apple TV screensaver.

01:37:37   Which is really cool looking.

01:37:38   I mean, it's not...

01:37:39   You realize when you see it on a 5K screen that all the movies and images are not enough

01:37:43   resolution.

01:37:44   Like, they look great on your TV, but they don't look great on your 5K iMac.

01:37:47   But it's a cool screensaver.

01:37:48   And if you want to have that screensaver on your Mac, and why wouldn't you, it is available

01:37:52   someone like ported it, like ripped it out of the Apple TV and ported it to GitHub because

01:37:56   it's really just a matter of getting the correct URLs to pull the movies down and then having

01:37:59   them, you know, just, you know, play on the screen. So if we can resurrect that link and

01:38:05   put it in the show.

01:38:06   I have it. I have it.

01:38:07   Yeah, it's called Ariel, I think.

01:38:08   Yep. That's right. And that's actually not what I was talking about on the Apple TV.

01:38:12   I was talking about the thing where you point it at a photo. What am I trying to say? A

01:38:17   shared album.

01:38:18   Your photo library from photos so you can see your kids and stuff.

01:38:21   - Exactly, and that works great.

01:38:22   Now, that being said, this aerial screensaver,

01:38:25   that's what I use on my work computer,

01:38:27   and it's fantastic, I can't recommend it enough.

01:38:30   - Real time follow up, the chat room has informed me

01:38:32   that I have HBO now, not HBO Go.

01:38:34   - I know, I know, I've given up correcting you on that.

01:38:37   - Just auto-corrected in your head at that point?

01:38:39   - Yeah. - Yep.

01:38:40   - Yeah, so whichever HBO thing I have

01:38:42   doesn't work anymore on the Apple TV,

01:38:43   and so I'm not really sure why I'm paying for it.

01:38:45   - Installing and uninstalling it, rebooting.

01:38:47   - I haven't tried reinstalling yet.

01:38:48   - Turn off i-clock, Q-Chain.

01:38:49   (laughing)

01:38:51   - Wow.

01:38:52   - Oh God.

01:38:53   - Ay yi yi.

01:38:54   - I just want things to work.

01:38:56   Why is this so much to ask?

01:38:58   It's great that we have all this new stuff.

01:39:00   I just wish it worked better.

01:39:02   - Well, you just use the new single sign-on feature.

01:39:04   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:39:05   - And it'll work fine.

01:39:06   - Yeah, it supports so many providers.

01:39:08   Honestly though, I wish, I keep using the Apple TV

01:39:12   because I have tried the other things before.

01:39:14   I've tried the Amazon whatever.

01:39:15   I've tried the little Roku whatever.

01:39:19   I haven't tried the Google thing yet

01:39:21   'cause I like real remote controls and don't use Android,

01:39:23   so it kinda doesn't offer a whole lot for me.

01:39:25   But the other things are worse,

01:39:29   and that's why I keep using the Apple TV,

01:39:30   'cause the Apple TV really is better than what's out there

01:39:34   for many things that I want.

01:39:37   But I just wish it was better than it is.

01:39:39   Like why, when I pick up the remote,

01:39:45   when we haven't used it in a few hours,

01:39:48   Why does it not respond immediately?

01:39:51   Why does the remote take like 10 to 15 seconds

01:39:55   before swiping back and forth on the trackpad actually works?

01:39:59   Like, maybe it's asleep to save power when I'm not using it,

01:40:03   but how long does it take to wake up?

01:40:06   Why, when it boots up, does it seem like it's been asleep

01:40:11   the entire time and has literally updated

01:40:13   nothing about anything ever?

01:40:15   It's plugged into the wall.

01:40:17   It can update whenever it wants, but it doesn't.

01:40:20   Why, when it wakes up, does it always tell me

01:40:23   there's no internet connection?

01:40:24   Even though there always is, it's hard wired.

01:40:27   It always has an internet connection.

01:40:30   It's like, I just, I don't understand

01:40:33   why this product is the way it is.

01:40:36   And it's frustrating, just like many of Apple products,

01:40:41   it's frustrating that it has these flaws

01:40:43   because it is still the best in the market for me.

01:40:46   I still like it better than the alternatives,

01:40:48   so I'm going to keep using it.

01:40:51   I just wish it was better.

01:40:53   And it seems like really basic stuff.

01:40:56   The design of the remote aside,

01:40:57   I've already worn that to death,

01:40:59   but why doesn't it just work better?

01:41:03   Why do I occasionally have to reboot it?

01:41:05   It makes no sense to have these kind of shortcomings

01:41:09   in this kind of product in this year.

01:41:11   - I remember when Marco wasn't gonna complain

01:41:12   about Apple TV, do you remember that Casey?

01:41:14   I do remember that. I do remember that fondly. That was a wonderful moment.

01:41:18   Seems so long ago.

01:41:19   I'm known for changing my mind.

01:41:21   Oh man, that was a great day.

01:41:23   I don't know. I mean, I have the same feelings about it.

01:41:29   I can say one good thing when you're mentioning the Apple TV remote, one good thing about the Apple TV remote,

01:41:34   that battery life is amazing. Like this is not a big remote.

01:41:38   That's true.

01:41:38   The battery can't be that big in there. I'm trying to think. I think I've plugged it in to charge it.

01:41:43   once ever for this Apple TV, like one time ever in my entire life.

01:41:50   So I have the big Apple TV, like the one that's too tall.

01:41:52   So whenever that came out, I bought it exactly when it came out, and I plugged it in once.

01:41:57   So that's good.

01:41:58   Everything else you said, you know, is totally true.

01:42:01   My apps all work on the Apple TV for the most part.

01:42:03   I still have the same problem of like waking it up and why does it take so long and why

01:42:07   is it not all the time and like, you know, all those things happen.

01:42:11   But and also I'm constantly cleaning the gross stuff from my kids fingers off of that trackpad

01:42:17   because my kids are gross.

01:42:19   But yeah when it plays video successfully I consider it a victory and I just you know

01:42:25   walk away.

01:42:26   But do you have is it just me do you guys have these problems with yours?

01:42:30   Mine like I have like you know sometimes it will get like can't play your iTunes video

01:42:37   because of some like whatever weird iTunes server error.

01:42:41   And I get the sluggishness in that it's not reacting

01:42:43   to my things and stuff like that,

01:42:44   but for the most part, it plays video eventually

01:42:49   and plays it through successfully

01:42:50   without dying in the middle.

01:42:52   - I just want, like when it's being non-responsive

01:42:55   or when it's being seemingly very heavily loaded

01:42:58   with background tasks, like what is it doing?

01:43:00   'Cause like it doesn't support background operation of apps.

01:43:04   It has a few things where, like, you can refresh certain feeds for things that appear in the

01:43:09   carousel up top and everything, but it's really very few of those things.

01:43:13   And it's fairly decent iOS hardware inside there, running a nice stripped-down version

01:43:19   of iOS software that doesn't have a whole lot to do, and it's plugged into the wall

01:43:23   and has a constant internet connection so it can do things whenever it wants to in the

01:43:26   background.

01:43:27   I just, I don't understand what it's doing.

01:43:29   Why, like...

01:43:30   I assume it's FileIO, because anything I can blame on HFS+

01:43:33   I will, right?

01:43:35   It's got to be FileIO, because it doesn't have fast storage.

01:43:40   Like the storage, it's flash storage,

01:43:42   but it's not fast flash storage.

01:43:44   And because HFS+ is still single threaded

01:43:48   and only one process can be writing to the file system

01:43:51   at a time, that's a potential bottleneck.

01:43:53   And if you've seen anything having to do with iOS devices,

01:43:55   like if you hit Update All on a bunch of apps

01:43:57   that if you're still an old person

01:43:58   manually update your apps like I do, you know that will cripple your phone.

01:44:03   You know, like, you can let it update stuff, but as it's doing anything having to do with

01:44:07   like pulling down things and messing with your file system, everything is going to be

01:44:11   super slow during that time.

01:44:14   So that's my guess for what it's doing.

01:44:15   Like what it's doing in the background is doing something having to do with lots of

01:44:18   file I/O and that just bogs everything down.

01:44:21   I guess.

01:44:22   APFS will fix all this for you.

01:44:24   It just, I just wish it was better.

01:44:26   I get like why why is this not better?

01:44:28   Just get better working on it Marco. No, I I occasionally

01:44:33   Have a little bit of unresponsiveness from the remote when I first grab it

01:44:39   But I've taken two and to me, I don't find this is unreasonable, but I presume that Marco you're gonna find this completely egregious

01:44:46   I just mashed down on the the click the trackpad or the home button either one

01:44:51   I tend to click the trackpad because it's a bigger target. But yeah the home button or the trackpad

01:44:55   I'd smash down on that like five or six times and then as the TV the Apple TV is starting up and

01:45:00   Usually as my TV is also starting up which although I have a fine TV like it's a reasonable TV

01:45:06   But it takes an eternity to turn on

01:45:08   So anyway as I'm waiting for all these things to turn on usually the remote is woken up

01:45:13   There's been a couple of occasions where it hasn't or maybe the remote has gone into sleep mode before the Apple TV has

01:45:19   But if I mash on a button for a second it starts working like I don't I don't

01:45:23   Really have any problems and the only apps I typically use on my Apple TV are Plex which is probably 90% of the time

01:45:29   It's an airplay receiver for Spotify

01:45:32   not unreasonable amount of time and Netflix and

01:45:36   For those uses which admittedly I'm not trying to say these are terribly complex uses, but for those uses

01:45:41   Works pretty darn reliably for me

01:45:45   I did get the big one because it was a gift from Erin and she wasn't sure if I would want the bigger one or

01:45:50   the smaller one. I doubt that makes a difference, but for what it's worth, I do

01:45:53   have the the higher capacity one. But yeah, I mean it definitely has problems

01:45:58   from time to time, but generally I found it works great. I do the same thing with

01:46:03   when I know I'm gonna be watching on my Apple TV, the first thing I do is I hit

01:46:07   the the home button on the Apple TV. Not that it because I expected to do

01:46:10   anything, like the little one that looks like the TV button, but because it will

01:46:14   turn the Apple TV on. So I hit, I do that first, then I turn my TV on, then every

01:46:18   time I receive Ron, don't tell me about Uno's remotes, I'm turning it to Casey here, I know

01:46:22   all about them.

01:46:23   But anyway, then everything is essentially ready at the same time, but I have developed

01:46:27   that habit because if I do it the other way and get everything all turned on and then

01:46:29   switch to the Apple TV input and then grab the Apple TV remote, the Apple TV is asleep.

01:46:34   And my Apple TV is plugged into the wall like everyone else's, it's connected to gigabit

01:46:37   Ethernet, I would love for it to be doing more.

01:46:40   My PlayStation 4, both of them, will download entire multi-gigabyte games when they're "off",

01:46:46   the fan is not spinning, right? It's still plugged in, it's still in its sleep mode,

01:46:50   but while it's in its sleep mode, it will download game updates for me, it will charge

01:46:54   my controller, it is doing so much more work for me than that stupid puck that apparently

01:46:58   does nothing until I turn it on.

01:46:59   David: I should also note that when I grab my Apple TV remote and the TV is off, HDMI

01:47:06   C and CEC, I almost said C and C, as in like the…

01:47:10   Jared; The music factory.

01:47:11   David; Yeah, exactly, the music factory. The point being, I mash down on the button and

01:47:16   and then the TV turns itself on.

01:47:17   Now I will say that the TV does not always switch

01:47:20   to the right input, but with 99% reliability,

01:47:24   the TV does indeed turn itself on

01:47:26   when the Apple TV comes on, which is nice.

01:47:29   I don't know, maybe I'm just a special snowflake.

01:47:31   - No, I mean, this is what's frustrating.

01:47:32   It's like, this stuff works like 90% of the time.

01:47:37   It's like, it's really frustrating that it's not 100%.

01:47:39   And I know it's really hard, I know it's really complicated,

01:47:41   but certain things that don't work

01:47:43   just seem like they really should.

01:47:45   Like the responsiveness of the software and the remote, like that's, uh, I just, a lot

01:47:50   of it is the track pad itself.

01:47:51   I always feel like it would be more responsive, but part of it is the awkwardness of swiping

01:47:54   that little thing.

01:47:55   It just doesn't feel like, that's why I often use it as a d-pad.

01:47:59   I don't do the swiping.

01:48:00   I will hit, that will click the edges, which is in itself is a strange motion, but I find

01:48:04   it, I find it more reliable that I know I've done the motion then especially like up and

01:48:09   down flicking with like your thumb.

01:48:11   And it's, it, I don't know.

01:48:13   I'm not a trackpad person at all and I feel like a disconnection between them, between

01:48:18   those motions and the thing.

01:48:20   Even just like whoever came up with the idea that selection state is going to be represented

01:48:25   by making some of the rectangles bigger, I don't think that's a particularly successful

01:48:30   idea because very often I have to double check, you know, by looking at the screen to make

01:48:35   sure the rectangle I think is selected is selected.

01:48:38   Like a big hunk and blue outline would certainly be uglier and less elegant, but it would let

01:48:42   me know better than, and you know it's obvious in a screenshot, it's like you can't tell

01:48:46   what's selected, look at this rectangle, it's poking out in front of everything else, it's

01:48:49   overlapping them, clearly it's the one that's selected, but it's not obvious enough I think

01:48:53   to you know like the elegance benefit of it and the aesthetic benefit is outweighed by

01:48:59   the usability thing, I wish there was more of like a glow or a prominence about it, and

01:49:05   then when I'm trying to use the swiping to move around to get to the Netflix app or whatever,

01:49:10   shooting and having to go back one is definitely a thing and that's frustrating.

01:49:14   I don't like hitting the D-pad going left left left down down down.

01:49:18   That's frustrating too because I see it and I can get it with a mouse instantly and if

01:49:22   it was a touchscreen I could touch it immediately.

01:49:24   Having to go left left left down down is a pain but at least I can count the number of

01:49:27   less than the number of downs and I know I'll land on it.

01:49:29   Having to go swipe is the bottom of the barrel where I have to go swipe swipe swipe down

01:49:33   down but I don't know how many times I have to swipe because momentum may bring me over

01:49:36   and then I have to correct.

01:49:38   just not a pleasant experience. And when I talk into the remote, like I've almost given

01:49:42   up on that because Siri really frustrates me into like, "When are you ready for me to

01:49:46   talk, Siri?" And they keep changing it like, "Oh, it's always listening. Just start talking."

01:49:50   But often I start talking, then it goes boom in the middle of me talking. And I know it's

01:49:53   not, it didn't catch half of what I said. And when I tried talking to the remote, I

01:49:56   hold down the microphone button and I never always wonder when it's safe for me to talk.

01:50:00   Do I have to wait for the little rainbow colored thing to show up? Can I start talking now?

01:50:04   And very often it takes two or three tries and it's often still better than the alternative

01:50:08   of navigating to an app.

01:50:10   But yeah, I'm ready for the next version.

01:50:13   I'll keep buying these Apple TVs the same reason you do.

01:50:16   The other reason I have that Marco perhaps doesn't is I'm essentially out of inputs at

01:50:19   this point.

01:50:20   So if I want to try something else, I have to evict something and I've locked myself

01:50:24   into the Apple ecosystem with all the iTunes movies and stuff that I bought.

01:50:27   So I have to have an Apple TV.

01:50:29   So I'm going to keep buying them and I'm ready to buy a new one anytime Apple wants to make

01:50:33   it better.

01:50:34   (beeping)

01:50:36   [