ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Anything we need to talk about? You want to talk politics for a while?

00:00:02 ◼   ► Oh my god.

00:00:03 ◼   ► [

00:00:09 ◼   ► Yeah, this is not really related to the Mac Pro and Apple's getting out of the display

00:00:14 ◼   ► business and all that business, but it's strangely connected. So I've got a PS4 Pro now, and

00:00:22 ◼   ► one of the features of the PS4 Pro is that it theoretically supports 4K for games that

00:00:27 ◼   ► are updated to support it and that actually do support it.

00:00:32 ◼   ► And I figure, since I'm keeping my old PS4 and I have a gaming monitor with it as well,

00:00:37 ◼   ► I needed a new monitor for the new one, because neither one of these is getting hooked up

00:00:41 ◼   ► to my TV for display burn-in reasons.

00:00:45 ◼   ► So when I was going to get a new monitor, I figured I should get a 4K one, because hey,

00:00:48 ◼   ► the PlayStation 4 Pro is supposed to be all 4K capable, so that's what I should do.

00:00:52 ◼   ► So I shopped around for a 4K monitor that supported HDR, which is another feature of

00:00:57 ◼   ► the PS4 Pro.

00:00:58 ◼   ► Actually, maybe they backported that to the plain old PS4, I don't remember.

00:01:02 ◼   ► Anyway, apparently it's impossible to find an HDR-capable 4K computer monitor.

00:01:07 ◼   ► You can find TVs, obviously, but I wasn't looking for a TV.

00:01:11 ◼   ► And also, the size inflation of TVs that happened maybe three years ago, four years ago, where

00:01:18 ◼   ► any decent TV is now like at least 55 inches.

00:01:22 ◼   ► I'm fearing that someday you won't be able to get one less than 65 inches.

00:01:25 ◼   ► Like the minimum size for a decent TV has gone up.

00:01:28 ◼   ► You'll have to move.

00:01:29 ◼   ► Yeah, you can't buy it yourself.

00:01:31 ◼   ► Can I get a 27 inch 4K TV with HDR?

00:01:33 ◼   ► The answer is no.

00:01:34 ◼   ► No you can't.

00:01:35 ◼   ► You want a 55 inch?

00:01:36 ◼   ► I've got one of those for you.

00:01:38 ◼   ► Anyway, no HDR, but I did want to get 4K.

00:01:42 ◼   ► So I shopped around a little bit.

00:01:43 ◼   ► I hate doing this because I don't...

00:01:45 ◼   ► There's like a million different products in the non-Apple world.

00:01:49 ◼   ► So much selection, it's overwhelming.

00:01:50 ◼   ► I ended up getting a ViewSonic, great product names, XG2700 4K display, which is really

00:02:01 ◼   ► nice.

00:02:02 ◼   ► I especially like the stand it came with.

00:02:04 ◼   ► It's like height adjustable, it was very sturdy.

00:02:07 ◼   ► The monitor itself was a little chunky and a little bit gamer-y looking.

00:02:10 ◼   ► It was black but with like a red stripe and these silly things.

00:02:13 ◼   ► So it wasn't that bad.

00:02:14 ◼   ► This is not only expensive, but you're whining about the LG display and the way that looks,

00:02:22 ◼   ► and this has frickin' red trim on it?

00:02:24 ◼   ► Are you serious, John Siracusa?

00:02:25 ◼   ► Those are racing stripes that make you go faster.

00:02:27 ◼   ► I mean, this is not my Mac, obviously.

00:02:29 ◼   ► Have you seen what the PlayStation 4 itself looks like?

00:02:32 ◼   ► This is hideous.

00:02:33 ◼   ► I don't care.

00:02:34 ◼   ► This is truly terrible.

00:02:36 ◼   ► The LG Ultrafine is, it is not a pretty monitor.

00:02:39 ◼   ► I'm not trying to say it's pretty, but it's positively understated compared to this atrocity.

00:02:44 ◼   ► This is not that I mean if you look at it

00:02:46 ◼   ► it's basically just

00:02:47 ◼   ► Inconsolately black around the display and all you can see when you're sitting in front of it is the two little red side things on

00:02:52 ◼   ► the stand and

00:02:54 ◼   ► You can't even see the bread stripe on the on the vertical thing because it gets covered up at the height

00:02:58 ◼   ► I had a monitor anyway. That's what I got oh, and it was all right all of these PC

00:03:03 ◼   ► Gaming monitors have they have like on-screen you know

00:03:07 ◼   ► Adjustments on the device itself that had nothing to do with the thing that's connected to it so on the device itself you can adjust

00:03:13 ◼   ► like brightness and contrast, but also a million other settings, some of which are strange,

00:03:19 ◼   ► through what you can imagine to be like the worst on-screen controls, you know? You know

00:03:22 ◼   ► when they put like grainy sort of bitmapped little menu thing and normally have like a

00:03:26 ◼   ► — the ViewSonic has like a one and two button, like the one brings up the menu, the two goes

00:03:30 ◼   ► into it, and then there's up and down arrows.

00:03:33 ◼   ► So bad.

00:03:34 ◼   ► It's a terrible interface. It's kind of like going back in time to like when televisions

00:03:38 ◼   ► first got on-screen displays. OSD they call them, on-screen display, which doesn't really

00:03:44 ◼   ► make any sense. Is that what it stands for, on-screen display? Anyway.

00:03:46 ◼   ► >> I believe that's right. >> It doesn't make any sense. Where else would

00:03:48 ◼   ► the display be? Off-screen display? >> This is real. I'm still looking at this

00:03:53 ◼   ► monitor. I mean, like, I should point out, like, I like many tastefully designed PC monitors.

00:04:00 ◼   ► I like ViewSonic. And ViewSonic, I have owned multiple ViewSonic monitors. They are really

00:04:05 ◼   ► good usually. I like red even. Red is one of my favorite colors for things to be in,

00:04:12 ◼   ► even though Trump ruined red hats forever. But I look at this monitor and I cannot even

00:04:16 ◼   ► imagine buying this thing and having this on my desk.

00:04:18 ◼   ► I could not agree more.

00:04:20 ◼   ► Just look at the monitor part of it. Not the stand, but just the monitor from the front.

00:04:24 ◼   ► It is literally a matte black rectangle with the word "EUSONIC" on the bottom. That's

00:04:28 ◼   ► pretty much as plain as you can get.

00:04:31 ◼   ► But you will see the stand, and if you're not seeing the red stripe on the back, your

00:04:34 ◼   ► monitor is probably too low. Well, I mean, I guess you can see a little tiny bit of it,

00:04:38 ◼   ► but you don't notice it. And like the stand, among stands, you don't know how deep this

00:04:43 ◼   ► thing goes. Go look at some of the stands of other PC and gaming monitors. Just do me

00:04:47 ◼   ► a favor, do me a favor, get a VESA arm and have that hold this up instead. Yeah, no,

00:04:52 ◼   ► I'm getting to the VESA arm, okay? We'll get there. Is it VESA? Not VESA? All these years.

00:04:58 ◼   ► I'm gonna say VESA and it's definitely a move file and you mispronounce everything, so.

00:05:02 ◼   ► I don't understand how you besmirch the 5K monitor as an atrocity that you would never

00:05:09 ◼   ► be able to use ever, and then you buy this piece of garbage.

00:05:15 ◼   ► Do you think I would ever connect this to my Mac?

00:05:17 ◼   ► What difference does it make?

00:05:19 ◼   ► Oh, it makes a difference.

00:05:20 ◼   ► I would never connect this to my Mac.

00:05:21 ◼   ► It doesn't even get to be on the same desk as my Mac.

00:05:23 ◼   ► I love that you have lower standards for the PC and gaming equipment.

00:05:27 ◼   ► Of course I do.

00:05:29 ◼   ► Not only of course I do, I don't disagree.

00:05:31 ◼   ► But you really have no choice.

00:05:33 ◼   ► You have to have – I have different standards anyway, but you have no choice.

00:05:36 ◼   ► There is no nice, tasteful PC hardware for the most part.

00:05:42 ◼   ► Even things like the HP Spectre are really – I see they're putting in an effort, but

00:05:46 ◼   ► it's not to my taste.

00:05:48 ◼   ► Anyway, let me continue my story here.

00:05:50 ◼   ► So I got this thing, and the adjustments on it are very strange.

00:05:54 ◼   ► I'm trying to get it sort of calibrated to something reasonable, but they have all sorts

00:05:58 ◼   ► of settings, most of which fly in the face of my television snob sensibilities, because

00:06:05 ◼   ► the television you want to adjust, like you're trying, there is a goal, there is like, you

00:06:10 ◼   ► can get reference images and say it should look like this, you know, because television

00:06:13 ◼   ► content is produced with the expectation that here is the color range of your display, here is the

00:06:18 ◼   ► brightness behavior, all sorts of other things like that. Whereas for a gaming monitor specifically,

00:06:26 ◼   ► Games are not produced with any sort of reference viewing environment, right?

00:06:32 ◼   ► Because there is no real standard for that. Games are produced, I don't know how they

00:06:37 ◼   ► decide like how dark should the textures be and you know, what color range should we use?

00:06:41 ◼   ► I really don't know what they use, but I can tell you that everybody's PC monitors are

00:06:46 ◼   ► not calibrated like quote unquote correctly and are all over the map and there is a setting that

00:06:51 ◼   ► seems to be pervasive on all PC monitors, especially with the gaming band they call

00:06:55 ◼   ► "black stabilization." Have you ever even heard of that?

00:06:57 ◼   ► >> MATT PORTER, MD No.

00:06:58 ◼   ► >> JEREMY CHANIN, MD What—why is black changing?

00:07:01 ◼   ► >> MATT PORTER, MD Yeah, so in games, a lot of games are made where there'll be dark

00:07:06 ◼   ► sections where you go, like, in a cave or something. But if you're playing a game,

00:07:09 ◼   ► especially a competitive game, you don't actually want to, quote-unquote,

00:07:14 ◼   ► "faithfully" reproduce the blacks because you won't be able to see anything.

00:07:18 ◼   ► And it is an advantage for you instead to have the monitor so that it kind of, I'm assuming

00:07:21 ◼   ► what it's doing is like squashing everything down.

00:07:23 ◼   ► It's like, oh, I can see the subtle difference between 100% black and 99% black and 98% black

00:07:29 ◼   ► in this cave.

00:07:30 ◼   ► It's important for me to see that so I can pick out the edges of the cave wall and find

00:07:34 ◼   ► where the enemies are or whatever.

00:07:36 ◼   ► Like if you've ever seen anyone do like competitive first person shooters in PC gaming, they're

00:07:41 ◼   ► not trying to get visual fidelity as if it's a movie or television show.

00:07:45 ◼   ► What they're trying to do is, can I see everything clearly?

00:07:49 ◼   ► So a lot of the monitors have settings that make the picture worse, like by reducing the

00:07:55 ◼   ► dynamic range and making areas that would be black less black, which looks bad.

00:08:01 ◼   ► It's like a bad black level on your TV.

00:08:03 ◼   ► And also all the settings that are involved like response time, because that's the other

00:08:06 ◼   ► big thing.

00:08:07 ◼   ► A lot of gamers use TN panels, which nobody uses anymore because they look terrible, the

00:08:10 ◼   ► viewing angles are terrible, but they have better response time.

00:08:14 ◼   ► I've never gone that far.

00:08:15 ◼   ► I couldn't get a TN display, 'cause that's like,

00:08:17 ◼   ► I mean, it's like going back to the MacBook Air.

00:08:19 ◼   ► It's like, no.

00:08:20 ◼   ► - I mean, you aren't an animal.

00:08:21 ◼   ► - Right, so I got an IPS display,

00:08:23 ◼   ► which it has like a five times worse response time,

00:08:26 ◼   ► but even on these displays,

00:08:27 ◼   ► there's a way you can change the response time

00:08:29 ◼   ► to be as good as it can be,

00:08:32 ◼   ► doing what I assume is sacrificing visual quality.

00:08:35 ◼   ► I'm trying to strike the right balance

00:08:37 ◼   ► between don't look terrible monitor,

00:08:39 ◼   ► but also I do feel there's a benefit

00:08:42 ◼   ► to not having everything be black

00:08:44 ◼   ► when I'm doing the raid, one of the raids in Destiny,

00:08:46 ◼   ► there are a lot of dark areas,

00:08:48 ◼   ► and if I'm doing some jumping puzzle in the dark

00:08:50 ◼   ► to try to do something, I like, you know,

00:08:52 ◼   ► I do have it adjusted, quote unquote, wrong,

00:08:54 ◼   ► so I can, so the games play better.

00:08:57 ◼   ► So anyway, I had a lot of trouble

00:08:59 ◼   ► trying to get the ViewSonic setup that way,

00:09:00 ◼   ► but the real problem was that for a while,

00:09:02 ◼   ► my PlayStation 4 Pro did not show me a 4K output option,

00:09:06 ◼   ► it would just output 1080.

00:09:08 ◼   ► I'm like, well, that's not what I want,

00:09:09 ◼   ► I need you to output 4K.

00:09:10 ◼   ► So I did a bunch of Googling,

00:09:12 ◼   ► The PlayStation says, you know, "Count out port 4K," and it would say, "HDCP 2.2 not

00:09:18 ◼   ► available."

00:09:19 ◼   ► I don't know if you guys are familiar with HDCP, but it's another one of those stupid

00:09:22 ◼   ► things that makes you a life force for no good reason.

00:09:25 ◼   ► And this monitor apparently predates HDCP 2.2.

00:09:27 ◼   ► It only supports, like, I forget what the earlier standard is, maybe 1.1 or 1.4.

00:09:32 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:09:33 ◼   ► Anyway, I had a "HDMI 2.0" cable and everything was good, but it didn't work with it, and

00:09:38 ◼   ► I did some Googling, and you find people asking if you saw an icon Twitter, "Hey, does this

00:09:41 ◼   ► monitor support HTTP 2.2?" They say, "Sorry, no." So I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to have to

00:09:46 ◼   ► return this thing and get a different monitor." Now it turns out you can get it to games to

00:09:52 ◼   ► display 4K on this. It has a bunch of HDMI ports in the back and like so many televisions

00:09:56 ◼   ► and monitors before, only one of the ports is like the good one. So once I move the cable

00:10:02 ◼   ► to the good port, the one and only good port, which isn't labeled with anything that says,

00:10:05 ◼   ► "Hey, this is the only one that does HDMI 2.0. Hey, this is the only one that does 4K."

00:10:10 ◼   ► turns out there's only one that does it. So I could display games in 4k on this, but I still

00:10:15 ◼   ► wanted to get another monitor because this one still doesn't support HTTP 2.2, which probably

00:10:20 ◼   ► isn't a factor for playing games, but it does mean that like Netflix and other stuff like that that

00:10:23 ◼   ► wants to display video content won't do it on 4k because this doesn't do the stupid intellectual

00:10:28 ◼   ► property copy protection dance just the right way for stupid reasons. So I returned this one

00:10:36 ◼   ► in grand Marco fashion.

00:10:38 ◼   ► Although this was just plain old my fault of like,

00:10:40 ◼   ► I didn't even think to look for HTTP 2.0.

00:10:42 ◼   ► I'm like, I just need a gaming monitor.

00:10:44 ◼   ► This is one of those, it has HDMI input.

00:10:46 ◼   ► I should be good to go.

00:10:47 ◼   ► - And by the way, I don't usually return things.

00:10:49 ◼   ► Usually I sell them.

00:10:50 ◼   ► - I thought about selling this

00:10:52 ◼   ► 'cause like the stupid restocking fee on this

00:10:54 ◼   ► was gonna be a lot of money.

00:10:55 ◼   ► I'm like, well, if I can sell it

00:10:56 ◼   ► for more than the restocking fee, then.

00:10:58 ◼   ► - Oh, if there's a restocking fee, I'll return it for sure.

00:11:00 ◼   ► It's just an issue of like, I don't wanna like,

00:11:03 ◼   ► like I feel bad returning things

00:11:04 ◼   ► when I know someone else is going to be eating the cost.

00:11:06 ◼   ► But if I'm definitely eating the cost, then I won't feel bad about that anymore.

00:11:10 ◼   ► Yeah, I was just hoping I-- if I sold it to someone else, like a brand new monitor that

00:11:13 ◼   ► had like barely even touched the-- the little plastic films were still on the thing, you

00:11:17 ◼   ► know, the peely plastic stuff that protects it.

00:11:19 ◼   ► That was still on it.

00:11:20 ◼   ► So this was brand new, but if I could have sold it for somebody for like maybe $80 less

00:11:25 ◼   ► than I paid for it, then I still would have come out ahead.

00:11:29 ◼   ► Anyway, so I returned that one.

00:11:31 ◼   ► And in its place I got an LG 4K display.

00:11:36 ◼   ► I don't have an LG 5K display.

00:11:38 ◼   ► I now have an LG 4K display.

00:11:40 ◼   ► Does it have that weird little head with the camera in it?

00:11:43 ◼   ► It is not a 5 head.

00:11:45 ◼   ► Take a look at it.

00:11:46 ◼   ► Wait, what model is it?

00:11:48 ◼   ► The ridiculous thing.

00:11:49 ◼   ► I just put the link in the show notes.

00:11:50 ◼   ► It is not a 5 head.

00:11:52 ◼   ► It is more tame looking.

00:11:55 ◼   ► Whoa, there's no edge.

00:11:57 ◼   ► There is.

00:11:58 ◼   ► It's just a, it's very thin.

00:11:59 ◼   ► But you know, so you notice this one is smaller overall.

00:12:03 ◼   ► It comes in a very small box, as Casey noted.

00:12:05 ◼   ► The frame around it is very small.

00:12:08 ◼   ► The panel is probably the same panel that's in like every LG 27-inch 4K display that you

00:12:12 ◼   ► can get right now, because they sell a whole bunch of them with different letter suffixes

00:12:15 ◼   ► on them.

00:12:16 ◼   ► The little stand that it's on is where the ViewSonic kicks its butt.

00:12:20 ◼   ► Because the ViewSonic stand was big, chunky, height adjustable, and red, and stable, right?

00:12:28 ◼   ► In this monitor, if you take your finger and put it under the corner and tap upwards, the

00:12:32 ◼   ► monitor bobbles its little bobblehead like it's one of those little hula dolls that you

00:12:35 ◼   ► put on a dashboard or one of those bobblehead figures, right?

00:12:38 ◼   ► It is the worst designed stand.

00:12:40 ◼   ► It just connects with two screws that you screw in yourself to this little tiny thing

00:12:44 ◼   ► in the back of it.

00:12:46 ◼   ► Terrible stand.

00:12:47 ◼   ► It's ugly, too.

00:12:48 ◼   ► I think that little semicircular thing is ugly.

00:12:49 ◼   ► It takes up more room on your desk width-wise than that square thing that the ViewSonic

00:12:53 ◼   ► had.

00:12:54 ◼   ► stripe, but it doesn't perform adequately the function of keeping the monitor still.

00:12:58 ◼   ► So if I bump my desk with my knee while I'm playing, I gotta watch a stupid bobblehead

00:13:02 ◼   ► bobble in front of me.

00:13:03 ◼   ► Now it does have a VESA mount on the back, and so I said, "Alright, well whatever, who

00:13:07 ◼   ► cares about that stand, it's got the 100mm VESA mount on the back of the thing."

00:13:11 ◼   ► All I have to do is find a sturdy VESA mount, get rid of that stupid foot, and use that.

00:13:18 ◼   ► But I don't want an arm, because I don't want to clamp it to my desk, because I have glass

00:13:22 ◼   ► on top of my desk and I don't want to clamp anything to it on my desk.

00:13:25 ◼   ► I just don't want an arm.

00:13:27 ◼   ► There's too much stuff going on back there.

00:13:28 ◼   ► I just want a stand.

00:13:30 ◼   ► And every single VESA stand I could find was uglier than this foot.

00:13:33 ◼   ► Yeah, you're not going to have a good time there.

00:13:37 ◼   ► They're terrible.

00:13:38 ◼   ► Like, the metal ones look like giant metal horseshoes.

00:13:40 ◼   ► The plastic ones look just as bad as this.

00:13:44 ◼   ► So I'm just going to, I'm just not hitting my desk and being careful.

00:13:49 ◼   ► And by the way, the on-screen controls for this one are better than the ViewSonic, but

00:13:51 ◼   ► still pretty grim.

00:13:52 ◼   ► This one has a tiny little joystick under the middle that you move around.

00:13:56 ◼   ► It's like kind of like a five-way switch, you know, you get up, down, left, right, and

00:13:58 ◼   ► press in.

00:13:59 ◼   ► But boy, what a terrible interface.

00:14:02 ◼   ► And because it's the bottom, and you're wiggling a joystick that's like pointing down, but

00:14:06 ◼   ► you're trying to move controls on the screen that are going, you know, in a different plane

00:14:11 ◼   ► up, down, left, and right.

00:14:13 ◼   ► Anyway, I think this one looks a little bit better than the ViewSonic's panel quality-wise.

00:14:19 ◼   ► Or maybe it's just that I have had more time to tweak it because the adjustments are not

00:14:22 ◼   ► so painful to use in the menu, but it has all the same crap, including a response time

00:14:27 ◼   ► adjustment in which the value that you want is high.

00:14:30 ◼   ► It's like, I don't want high response time, but yet because of the way they name these

00:14:34 ◼   ► features and probably the poor translation of the options, I had to look it up in the

00:14:37 ◼   ► manual and say, "Which one do I want for the thing where the response time number is a

00:14:41 ◼   ► lower number of milliseconds?

00:14:43 ◼   ► Oh, high.

00:14:44 ◼   ► That makes sense."

00:14:45 ◼   ► Why would you ever want it to be slower?

00:14:47 ◼   ► I think it decreases the quality of the display.

00:14:50 ◼   ► It decreases the-- I don't know, something.

00:14:51 ◼   ► I'm assuming the color quality or something.

00:14:53 ◼   ► It's doing less processing on the display.

00:14:55 ◼   ► And probably it's trying to not put

00:15:00 ◼   ► as much computation between the signal and the screen.

00:15:03 ◼   ► The same thing with-- there's like a sharpness thing that'll

00:15:05 ◼   ► apply a sharpness filter.

00:15:06 ◼   ► And especially when playing games in 1080,

00:15:08 ◼   ► like Destiny is still just 1080, the sharpness filter

00:15:11 ◼   ► does help make the text look better,

00:15:13 ◼   ► but it adds processing overhead.

00:15:14 ◼   ► So if you really want the best response time,

00:15:16 ◼   ► that the best option is to turn the sharpness all the way down, which is what I've done.

00:15:20 ◼   ► Anyway, I was able to adjust this to get it to look a little bit better to my eyes than

00:15:23 ◼   ► the ViewSonic, and now I'm just patiently waiting for 4K games to come out.

00:15:27 ◼   ► So I do not have this exact same monitor, I was mistaken.

00:15:31 ◼   ► For a couple different reasons, one, I'm pretty sure it's a different model.

00:15:35 ◼   ► So you got the UD68-P, I got the UD58-B, and the bezel on mine is…

00:15:46 ◼   ► considerably larger than the bezel on yours. Also, you chose poorly if this is ever going

00:15:52 ◼   ► to get connected to a computer. If you're ever going to connect it to a computer, 4K

00:15:57 ◼   ► is not enough DPI for 27 inches. You should have gotten 5K.

00:16:01 ◼   ► Yeah, no, I'm never connecting this to a computer. What computer would I connect this to? My

00:16:04 ◼   ► gaming PC? Well, you could connect it to your piece of

00:16:08 ◼   ► garbage Mac in theory and then actually have a retina Mac.

00:16:11 ◼   ► No, I would—this also is never going to be connected to a Mac.

00:16:15 ◼   ► I love that all of this trouble you're going through, I mean this is all like this crazy

00:16:20 ◼   ► stuff you're going through and having this whole separate desk set up that of course

00:16:23 ◼   ► has one near your Mac and everything and having this PC monitor, all this and yet you won't

00:16:29 ◼   ► build a gaming PC.

00:16:30 ◼   ► Like you're basically doing, you're putting in all the effort that it would take to have

00:16:34 ◼   ► a gaming PC.

00:16:35 ◼   ► No way, the Playstation is way less effort than a gaming PC, way less effort than a gaming

00:16:40 ◼   ► PC.

00:16:41 ◼   ► I mean once you get into all this crazy monitor twiddling that you're doing, I mean really

00:16:44 ◼   ► like you might like why is there not a gaming PC on this second second to your desk that

00:16:49 ◼   ► you have gaming PC would not do there's no destiny for PC.

00:16:53 ◼   ► Hello Destiny 2 may be coming for PC fans.

00:16:55 ◼   ► But anyway there's no destiny for PC.

00:16:57 ◼   ► There's no West Guardian for PC.

00:16:59 ◼   ► There's no Uncharted 4 for PC.

00:17:01 ◼   ► Like I need to have this.

00:17:03 ◼   ► This is the thing that I need.

00:17:04 ◼   ► Gaming PC does not replace this in any possible especially since the only thing I do with

00:17:08 ◼   ► my consoles is play like a handful of games that are essentially console exclusives even

00:17:12 ◼   ► on my Nintendo consoles.

00:17:13 ◼   ► There's no gaming PC that's going to play the next Zelda game, right?

00:17:17 ◼   ► That's what I buy these things for.

00:17:18 ◼   ► So I would have to have a gaming PC in addition to this, and there's no room for it, and it's

00:17:22 ◼   ► way more headache than this.

00:17:24 ◼   ► You know, I didn't mind the 4K thing, because I was excited to get a 4K monitor and to play

00:17:28 ◼   ► games at that resolution.

00:17:29 ◼   ► I do have a few games that have had updates that came out, which really just makes things

00:17:33 ◼   ► a little bit sharper, because it's not like they redid all the textures for the most part.

00:17:36 ◼   ► I think Overwatch is 4K now, I haven't looked at that yet, but anyway, there's a bunch of

00:17:41 ◼   ► there and I haven't, I don't have the PlayStation VR yet but I'm considering getting that. But no,

00:17:47 ◼   ► I'm pretty happy with the setup. Oh, I'm about the PS4 Pro. The only complaint I have about it,

00:17:52 ◼   ► and I realize I should probably just complain to Sony and get this fixed, the one controller

00:17:58 ◼   ► that the PS4 Pro came with, the left analog stick, if you look at it, like from the side,

00:18:03 ◼   ► is tilted in the neutral position ever so slightly. And I'm not having any of that, so.

00:18:08 ◼   ► I'm using my old DualShock because they didn't change the controller or anything, they just changed it like the buttons are now like ugly gray instead of black.

00:18:17 ◼   ► And I think maybe the triggers might be a little bit better.

00:18:19 ◼   ► But anyway, I'm gonna complain to Sony and say, "Hey look, I took this thing out of the box, I never touched it.

00:18:23 ◼   ► In the neutral position, all of these analog sticks should be straight up and down, this one is tilted to give me a new thing."

00:18:29 ◼   ► And I'm sure Sony will be happy to do that for me.

00:18:33 ◼   ► Oh, I'm sure.

00:18:34 ◼   ► On the one side, Jon, I truly, genuinely admire how perceptive you are and how you can notice these little things.

00:18:43 ◼   ► Oh, you would notice it. It's not like, "Oh, this is obscure. I'd only notice if I took it, like, out of level or a plumb bob."

00:18:49 ◼   ► You'd notice it with your eyeballs. It is not subtle.

00:18:52 ◼   ► But with that said, I am so glad that I am, at worst, mildly critical.

00:18:59 ◼   ► And not hypercritical like you are.

00:19:02 ◼   ► - This whole conversation, I'm sitting here thinking,

00:19:05 ◼   ► thank God this is one area I don't really care about.

00:19:08 ◼   ► Like, I don't care about gaming really at all.

00:19:11 ◼   ► I'd like to, but I don't.

00:19:12 ◼   ► I barely care about TVs.

00:19:15 ◼   ► I barely care about TV adjustments

00:19:17 ◼   ► and picture quality adjustments and everything.

00:19:19 ◼   ► I am just, I certainly don't care about analog sticks

00:19:22 ◼   ► being slightly tilted from neutral.

00:19:24 ◼   ► I am just so happy that, like,

00:19:26 ◼   ► there are so many areas that I care way too much about.

00:19:30 ◼   ► At least here's one that I don't.

00:19:32 ◼   ► - Yep.

00:19:33 ◼   ► - 'Cause I'm not carving my own analog sticks out of plastic.

00:19:36 ◼   ► That'd be the equivalent of you roasting your own beans.

00:19:38 ◼   ► - Hey, roasting your own beans is really not that hard,

00:19:41 ◼   ► and it's really good.

00:19:42 ◼   ► - I know, but I'm saying like,

00:19:44 ◼   ► it is one thing to be picky about the things that you buy,

00:19:46 ◼   ► but then at a certain point you say,

00:19:47 ◼   ► "There's nothing I can buy.

00:19:48 ◼   ► I must make it myself."

00:19:50 ◼   ► And that would be the equivalent

00:19:51 ◼   ► of me carving my own controllers

00:19:52 ◼   ► and like a controller assembly kit

00:19:54 ◼   ► and like making my own analog sticks

00:19:56 ◼   ► and like assembling it from pieces.

00:19:57 ◼   ► - You try to find good coffee on this half of the county.

00:20:00 ◼   ► I guarantee you can't find it.

00:20:02 ◼   ► There's no good controllers either, but I just accept what they sell me.

00:20:05 ◼   ► I just want it to be, like, you know, correct as, uh, when it comes out of the box, everything

00:20:09 ◼   ► should be straight.

00:20:10 ◼   ► If you could make your own perfect controller for $5 in 20 minutes, wouldn't you do it?

00:20:14 ◼   ► And then I have to drink it and it's gone and I gotta do it all over again?

00:20:17 ◼   ► Hence the analogy of breaking down.

00:20:19 ◼   ► Alright, so anyway, um, this monitor that you bought, Jon, is not HDR, is that correct?

00:20:25 ◼   ► No, it's not.

00:20:26 ◼   ► Isn't that one of the—because that's why you bought that god-awful red racing-striped

00:20:30 ◼   ► ViewSonic, was to get it.

00:20:31 ◼   ► No, none of them are.

00:20:32 ◼   ► No, you can't get as far as I remember.

00:20:35 ◼   ► There are none for sale.

00:20:36 ◼   ► There is no gaming monitor.

00:20:38 ◼   ► Like I said, you can get a TV with HDR.

00:20:39 ◼   ► You can get a 4K TV with HDR support for your PS4 Pro.

00:20:42 ◼   ► But as far as I was able to determine, there is no monitor, computer monitor that you can

00:20:47 ◼   ► buy as in a thing that's 27 inches and not 55 that you put on a desk that has HDR support.

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00:22:31 ◼   ► [Music]

00:22:33 ◼   ► Can you guys see the difference between wide color and not? Because maybe I've

00:22:41 ◼   ► just never really had a good example photo in like two screens next to each

00:22:46 ◼   ► other, but briefly before I gave up my 6s when I had—but I did have my 7, I held

00:22:52 ◼   ► the two of them side by side and damned if I could tell the difference. And I

00:22:55 ◼   ► don't know if it's just that my eyes are crappy, which they unequivocally are,

00:22:57 ◼   ► are, if I just don't appreciate it, which is possible, or is it just not that big a

00:23:03 ◼   ► deal if you're not like a designer?

00:23:05 ◼   ► Like Marco, for example, are you able to tell the difference when you just look at an arbitrary

00:23:09 ◼   ► photo on a wide color display versus a not wide color display?

00:23:16 ◼   ► Not yet.

00:23:17 ◼   ► I suspect as wide color displays become what I'm looking at every day, because like right

00:23:21 ◼   ► now I do most of my computing on a 2014 5K iMac, which does not have the high color display.

00:23:27 ◼   ► And so I now have it on my phone and on my iPad, but really I'm doing almost all of my, you know,

00:23:33 ◼   ► looking at things on my iMac. But it's not, it's not, it doesn't matter where you look at them,

00:23:38 ◼   ► it's the source material. So Casey, if you have something you look at, if you look at the same

00:23:42 ◼   ► picture that you took in a pre-wide color world, of course it's gonna look the same, because there's

00:23:48 ◼   ► no wide color information in it. You have to take the picture with a device capable of capturing

00:23:52 ◼   ► that. And then look at that same picture, one on like your iPhone 7 that you took it

00:23:57 ◼   ► on that took a wide color picture, and then the other one on that.

00:24:00 ◼   ► I thought that's what I did, but truth be told it was right when I first got the 7.

00:24:05 ◼   ► I wouldn't have put it past me to accidentally have taken like an old picture and said, "Oh,

00:24:08 ◼   ► I don't see anything." But, and I've seen like the sample images like where there's

00:24:13 ◼   ► like a big red blob and there's an R hidden in there that you wouldn't see unless it's

00:24:18 ◼   ► wide color, you know, and stuff like that. But nevertheless, on a regular picture, I've

00:24:24 ◼   ► not noticed a difference. And as a corollary question, is my two-year-old Micro Four Thirds,

00:24:30 ◼   ► I presume that's not wide color. Is that fair to say?

00:24:34 ◼   ► Most cameras have, well, most cameras don't have this option. Middle and high-end cameras

00:24:40 ◼   ► often will have an option to save the colors in Adobe RGB, maybe, instead of like, sRGB.

00:24:46 ◼   ► But I haven't looked too much into this.

00:24:48 ◼   ► As far as I know, I think that conversion happens after RAW anyway, so you might be

00:24:53 ◼   ► able to fix this with just a different RAW conversion process.

00:24:56 ◼   ► Jon, do you know about this?

00:24:58 ◼   ► I was going to say what you said.

00:25:00 ◼   ► There are other color profiles that are not called P3 that nevertheless have a larger

00:25:03 ◼   ► range than sRGB.

00:25:04 ◼   ► Yeah, like Adobe RGB is one of them.

00:25:06 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't know what the little envelopes look like in all of them.

00:25:09 ◼   ► And especially if you capture RAW, then that's all the information you're going to get.

00:25:13 ◼   ► And if you can pull more stuff out of it, I don't know.

00:25:15 ◼   ► I would like your best source for images with wide color is your iPhone 7 because it's yeah, you know

00:25:20 ◼   ► It's it's all sure I next it up and then there

00:25:23 ◼   ► If you I'm sure you've looked at Craig Hockenberry's page where he has a bunch of sample images

00:25:28 ◼   ► if you really can't tell the difference between the sample images because they're made to like emphasize the areas where

00:25:33 ◼   ► Humans can perceive the p3 color difference more that those really emphasize and those are kind of like artificial

00:25:40 ◼   ► but I have seen some other pictures where it's like

00:25:43 ◼   ► Just a picture of like a park like grass and a tree and some sky

00:25:46 ◼   ► And if you see them side by side like I do on my iPad Pro and I go to that page like alright

00:25:51 ◼   ► I mean, it's not it doesn't jump out at you

00:25:53 ◼   ► But if you look you're like you're like is this really the same picture. It's like yes

00:25:56 ◼   ► This is literally the same picture

00:25:58 ◼   ► Just one is s RGB and then the other one is showing the full white color and the full white color one

00:26:02 ◼   ► It's it's almost like

00:26:05 ◼   ► Contrast is turned down on the other one like there's not like the greens don't look as green like in this you know in the grass

00:26:11 ◼   ► type situation, like, "Oh, that tree looks a little bit more pastel-y and washed out."

00:26:15 ◼   ► Not a lot, but you have to see them side by side to see it. I don't think I could pick one out alone,

00:26:19 ◼   ► but if you literally show me the same picture in wide and not wide, you go, "Oh, the wide looks

00:26:23 ◼   ► a little better." That's about it. Okay. Okay, so I'm not entirely crazy then, because I'm looking

00:26:27 ◼   ► at this link on WebKit, and we'll put it in the show notes, and they have, like, and this is what

00:26:31 ◼   ► I was thinking of, they have the WebKit logo, which is like this big red blob that in sRGB,

00:26:36 ◼   ► you don't see the logo, and then if you go into P3, you can see the logo. Well, if you scroll down

00:26:41 ◼   ► on that same page, they have a yellow flower. And if you click—well, this is like what you were

00:26:45 ◼   ► saying, Jon—if you click between the sRGB-only and the P3, unequivocally I can tell that the P3

00:26:52 ◼   ► is much more vivid and looks more real. But if I were to look at either of these images,

00:26:58 ◼   ► like you said, Jon, without the other side-by-side, unlike, say, a retina screen versus a non-retina

00:27:04 ◼   ► Retina screen were just unbelievably obvious.

00:27:08 ◼   ► With these, I don't think I would notice the difference

00:27:10 ◼   ► unless they're side by side.

00:27:11 ◼   ► - I mean, that's how I am with most of these, too.

00:27:13 ◼   ► You know, like the example things, if I look at it

00:27:15 ◼   ► like on my iPad Pro, which is currently my biggest

00:27:18 ◼   ► P3 screen, these pictures look great, sure.

00:27:21 ◼   ► Like the big orangey sunsets, like yeah,

00:27:24 ◼   ► they do look a little more saturated

00:27:25 ◼   ► in those like orangey reddish tones,

00:27:28 ◼   ► but you can look at a non-retina screen

00:27:30 ◼   ► or a non-retina image or asset on a webpage

00:27:33 ◼   ► on a retina screen, and you can tell that difference

00:27:35 ◼   ► immediately, the very first thing you see

00:27:38 ◼   ► that is non-retina, after you're accustomed to retina,

00:27:41 ◼   ► you notice that immediately.

00:27:42 ◼   ► Whereas if I am scrolling through a webpage

00:27:45 ◼   ► and I see a picture of an orangey sunset that is not P3,

00:27:48 ◼   ► after I'm used to P3, I don't think I will notice

00:27:51 ◼   ► 'cause it could just look like it wasn't as saturated

00:27:53 ◼   ► of a picture as it could have been.

00:27:54 ◼   ► And so it's not, you know, it's a way smaller advance

00:27:59 ◼   ► for everyday casual observing and for most people.

00:28:03 ◼   ► It's nice to have, I'm glad they're doing it.

00:28:05 ◼   ► And it's especially nice if you actually shoot

00:28:08 ◼   ► a lot of pictures of orangy sunsets and things.

00:28:11 ◼   ► But it's a very, in general use,

00:28:14 ◼   ► it's the kind of thing you can very easily forget

00:28:16 ◼   ► that you even have.

00:28:17 ◼   ► - Okay, that was my experience as well.

00:28:19 ◼   ► And I was curious because I feel like,

00:28:21 ◼   ► and maybe it's just because I follow people

00:28:23 ◼   ► like Hockenberry and Mark Edwards,

00:28:24 ◼   ► and they're really revved up about it.

00:28:26 ◼   ► But to me, I was like, man, I barely see the difference.

00:28:29 ◼   ► And I'm glad to hear that that's not necessarily unusual.

00:28:32 ◼   ► Two more things on the monitors. First, Casey, when you go back to work, you should tap the

00:28:36 ◼   ► underside of one of the corners of your monitor and see if you've got a bobble head too, because

00:28:39 ◼   ► I think you have the same. Oh, I definitely do. Oh yeah.

00:28:41 ◼   ► Yeah. That's like, what a bad job. Like, the stand has one simple function. Just put the monitor up

00:28:46 ◼   ► off the desk, off the ground, and keep it still. And it fails at that thing. The other thing is,

00:28:51 ◼   ► the one thing, even though this LG monitor is, you know, there's not much to it. Like,

00:28:54 ◼   ► it is just black everywhere. It's not matte. It's not shiny. Doesn't have much of a frame around it.

00:28:59 ◼   ► It's not a five head.

00:29:01 ◼   ► The part on the bottom is the biggest part.

00:29:03 ◼   ► So like it's proportion-- the LG logo is small and subtle.

00:29:05 ◼   ► But if you go to that Amazon page for my thing and do the little zoomy thing, you can zoom

00:29:10 ◼   ► in and see the LG logo, right?

00:29:12 ◼   ► Move over to the right from the LG logo.

00:29:14 ◼   ► What do you see there lurking in the corner?

00:29:17 ◼   ► Because this is a PC product, it's just got to be ugly in some stupid way.

00:29:20 ◼   ► What do you see there?

00:29:21 ◼   ► This stupid Energy Star.

00:29:23 ◼   ► And it's small.

00:29:24 ◼   ► It's not a big Energy Star badge.

00:29:26 ◼   ► And it's black and white.

00:29:27 ◼   ► Like it's not colored and weird.

00:29:29 ◼   ► But it's like the whole front of this thing has nothing on it.

00:29:32 ◼   ► I will accept the LG logo.

00:29:34 ◼   ► It is small and tasteful and centered.

00:29:36 ◼   ► Why the hell is it an energy processor?

00:29:37 ◼   ► And so I'm like, I'm just going to peel that sticker off.

00:29:39 ◼   ► But it's one of those stickers where I'm going to have to think on it for a while because

00:29:44 ◼   ► it is clearly not one of those ones that comes off easy.

00:29:46 ◼   ► You know, the ones that are like made to come off.

00:29:48 ◼   ► Like the metal one?

00:29:49 ◼   ► Oh, it's not metal.

00:29:51 ◼   ► It's not plastic.

00:29:52 ◼   ► Like here's the math I have to do.

00:29:53 ◼   ► Like I know I could get it off.

00:29:56 ◼   ► But after I get it off, what's left underneath the square where it used to be?

00:30:01 ◼   ► Well that looked worse than the sticker.

00:30:02 ◼   ► Because the sticker, for all its ugliness, looks like a sticker.

00:30:06 ◼   ► It's the Energy Star logo.

00:30:07 ◼   ► If I peel it off and there's a bunch of like sticky crap or I damage the plastic underneath

00:30:11 ◼   ► it, but it's all just cheap plastic.

00:30:13 ◼   ► This is not an aluminum Apple display or anything, right?

00:30:16 ◼   ► If I damage it somehow, or get sticky stuff in there that I somehow can't get off with

00:30:20 ◼   ► careful application of SkinSoSoft on it, which by the way, that's a secret for all you out

00:30:26 ◼   ► if you get sticky crap from stickers on them. One of the many things that will remove it,

00:30:29 ◼   ► I know there are many products, but one of the ones that I've used for years is Avon's

00:30:33 ◼   ► Skin So Soft, which I think was supposed to be a thing that softens your skin. The only

00:30:36 ◼   ► thing I've ever used it for is a take-off sticker scum. And it's got a pleasant odor.

00:30:41 ◼   ► Oh my god. Why are we-- I love the extent to which we will avoid talking about the Microsoft

00:30:47 ◼   ► Surface Studio. No, we'll get there. We'll get there. Anyway, Energy Star sticker, it's,

00:30:54 ◼   ► you know, it's just got to be ugly in some way. And like I said, I don't like that semi-circular

00:30:59 ◼   ► horseshoe stand. I don't know who thought that was nice, but it's not.

00:31:02 ◼   ► So that Energy Star sticker that on your monitors on the bottom right, I have what appeared

00:31:07 ◼   ► to be an identical one, but if you look at the stand, and you know how it's kind of tilted

00:31:12 ◼   ► at a sort of, not a 45 degree angle, but like a 30 degree angle maybe? Well, mine was all

00:31:18 ◼   ► the way on the left on that stand, and I let it sit for a week or two before I even noticed

00:31:22 ◼   ► And then I was like, oh, this is crap.

00:31:23 ◼   ► And you know what I did?

00:31:24 ◼   ► I immediately ripped it off

00:31:25 ◼   ► because I don't worry about things like you do.

00:31:28 ◼   ► And there was no residue.

00:31:29 ◼   ► Or if there was residue,

00:31:30 ◼   ► I like rubbed at it with my thumb for a second.

00:31:33 ◼   ► - You don't know if there's residue.

00:31:34 ◼   ► You probably just that.

00:31:35 ◼   ► I don't even see it in the Amazon picture of your monitor.

00:31:37 ◼   ► I don't see the Energy Star sticker anywhere on it.

00:31:40 ◼   ► - You're right.

00:31:41 ◼   ► I don't see it either, but it was there for sure.

00:31:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, so anyway, I might make a run

00:31:45 ◼   ► of that sticker eventually.

00:31:47 ◼   ► - Just rip it off, Jon.

00:31:49 ◼   ► It's like a band-aid, just rip it off.

00:31:51 ◼   ► Speaking of Windows stuff, we got a series of tweets from Jordan who is nerdiophage on

00:31:59 ◼   ► Twitter.

00:32:01 ◼   ► And he tweeted five things, I'll read them in series.

00:32:04 ◼   ► He says, "I spent a week with a MacBook Pro escape after two solid decades of Windows

00:32:09 ◼   ► use.

00:32:10 ◼   ► I was of the opinion that Marco's unabashed dislike of the OS of Windows was equal parts

00:32:15 ◼   ► adoptive culture/fanboyism/showmanship.

00:32:19 ◼   ► I stand corrected and a little bit humbled.

00:32:22 ◼   ► The Windows path from Neophyte to Power User is shaped by registry edits, decoder rings,

00:32:27 ◼   ► and secret knocks, which is arduous.

00:32:29 ◼   ► Mac OS, by comparison, feels inviting, friendly, and intuitive, like a late-night conversation

00:32:35 ◼   ► at a dinner party with good friends.

00:32:36 ◼   ► So TL;DR, this is still Jordan, Mac OS, holy crap, I get it.

00:32:42 ◼   ► Transition cost will be very high, but seriously considering it.

00:32:45 ◼   ► And this echoes my experience in 2008 of switching from Windows to OS X at the time.

00:32:51 ◼   ► There were two weeks where I doubted my life and thought I'd made a terrible, awful, horrible

00:32:55 ◼   ► choice and then I'd never look back.

00:32:58 ◼   ► I'm not saying that Jordan's experience is true for everyone, because now we're going

00:33:01 ◼   ► to have all the Windows apologists writing in telling us how Windows is good and we're

00:33:04 ◼   ► a bunch of jerks and blah blah blah.

00:33:06 ◼   ► But--

00:33:07 ◼   ► Do they still really listen to us?

00:33:08 ◼   ► Some do, because we still get emails.

00:33:11 ◼   ► I'm not saying that this is true for everyone, I'm not saying Windows isn't better in some

00:33:14 ◼   ► way or another, but what I am saying is that we are not the only ones that seem to think

00:33:20 ◼   ► that there's a better way. So, just thought I'd share those series of tweets from Jordan,

00:33:24 ◼   ► so thank you Jordan for writing us. We had an interesting conversation in Slack, Marco,

00:33:30 ◼   ► and I'd like to air a grievance. Let's back up to circa January, maybe December, so almost

00:33:39 ◼   ► year ago now. And the two of you, but my recollection was that it was mostly Marco, were saying,

00:33:46 ◼   ► "You know what, Casey? You should never put personal crap on your work laptop. You should

00:33:53 ◼   ► really have a nice powerful machine for home use. You probably shouldn't be ignoring Aaron

00:33:59 ◼   ► and using your laptop while you're sitting next door on the couch. You know what you

00:34:02 ◼   ► need? You need an iMac. I've tried the laptop dance, Casey. It's no good. It's no good,

00:34:07 ◼   ► man, get the iMac. Think about that 27 inch beautiful 5K display with wide color, blah

00:34:12 ◼   ► blah blah blah blah. I'm telling you it's the way to go.

00:34:16 ◼   ► This is, there are some, I have some nitpicks with your summary already, but go ahead.

00:34:20 ◼   ► But then fast forward to, I don't know, a few days ago, when Marco was talking in Slack,

00:34:26 ◼   ► that private place that we really shouldn't bring up publicly, but here I am because I'm

00:34:29 ◼   ► annoyed, Marco is talking in Slack and saying, "Hmm, you know what, maybe I'll get a new

00:34:36 ◼   ► MacBook Pro and a 5K display and I'll be back to a one machine man again and I won't even

00:34:42 ◼   ► have to have a stupid desktop anymore.

00:34:45 ◼   ► That's not, okay.

00:34:47 ◼   ► Okay.

00:34:48 ◼   ► So here's what I said.

00:34:51 ◼   ► So basically looking at performance of everything and figuring a potential and maybe even likely

00:34:59 ◼   ► future that does not include the Mac Pro existing and also includes standalone 5K Retina displays

00:35:06 ◼   ► that can plug into laptops that have,

00:35:09 ◼   ► not matching, but maybe 90% of the performance of iMacs,

00:35:15 ◼   ► or 80% of the performance of iMacs.

00:35:19 ◼   ► I always say the reason I buy the 15 inch laptops

00:35:22 ◼   ► is because when I'm traveling,

00:35:25 ◼   ► I either need almost nothing,

00:35:27 ◼   ► in which case it doesn't matter what I have,

00:35:29 ◼   ► and the laptop's mainly there to type emails faster,

00:35:32 ◼   ► or to browse Twitter,

00:35:33 ◼   ► or I'm doing serious work,

00:35:36 ◼   ► whether it's Xcode or Lightroom photo raw importing

00:35:40 ◼   ► and stuff and editing.

00:35:41 ◼   ► Either way, usually when I use a laptop during travel,

00:35:46 ◼   ► I want a lot of screen space and I want a lot of horsepower.

00:35:50 ◼   ► I also now have an iMac as my main computer.

00:35:54 ◼   ► And looking at the specs of these computers these days,

00:35:58 ◼   ► comparing the new MacBook Pros with LG 5K display,

00:36:04 ◼   ► assuming it's good, which we don't actually know yet,

00:36:06 ◼   ► but we'll assume it's good, 'cause it probably is.

00:36:08 ◼   ► Comparing that against the iMac,

00:36:11 ◼   ► basically I am maintaining and upgrading

00:36:14 ◼   ► and paying for two different computers

00:36:17 ◼   ► with overall fairly similar hardware

00:36:20 ◼   ► and fairly similar performance.

00:36:23 ◼   ► And so I thought, you know what I probably should do,

00:36:27 ◼   ► but won't, and I bolded, won't,

00:36:30 ◼   ► but I said what I probably should do

00:36:33 ◼   ► is stop having two similarly spec'd Macs

00:36:37 ◼   ► that I pay for and maintain and everything,

00:36:41 ◼   ► or just have a top of the line 15 inch MacBook Pro

00:36:45 ◼   ► that I use, like many people do,

00:36:47 ◼   ► in clam shell mode, on my desk most of the time,

00:36:51 ◼   ► but then when I travel I can just take that with me

00:36:53 ◼   ► and have all the power of this maxed out computer with me.

00:36:56 ◼   ► That is what I should do.

00:36:59 ◼   ► It is not what I'm doing.

00:37:01 ◼   ► And maybe in the future I will do that.

00:37:04 ◼   ► You know me, I always change everything up

00:37:06 ◼   ► 'cause I'm never happy.

00:37:07 ◼   ► So maybe in the future I will do that.

00:37:10 ◼   ► I think I really wanna wait and see what happens

00:37:12 ◼   ► with the Mac Pro next year first.

00:37:14 ◼   ► If it turns out the Mac Pro is really dead

00:37:16 ◼   ► and that the best we can ever hope for on desktops

00:37:19 ◼   ► is iMac hardware that's 10 or 20% faster

00:37:22 ◼   ► than the MacBook Pros of the day,

00:37:24 ◼   ► then that might make a lot of sense actually for me.

00:37:27 ◼   ► But I really-- - You won't be able

00:37:28 ◼   ► to handle the fan noise, I guarantee it.

00:37:30 ◼   ► Can you just think of that--

00:37:31 ◼   ► - The iMac also has fan noise, that's the problem.

00:37:33 ◼   ► - But not as loud as a 15 inch, no way.

00:37:35 ◼   ► - Well, so again, I wanna see the new 15 inches first,

00:37:38 ◼   ► I wanna have some experience with them hopefully

00:37:40 ◼   ► to see how are these machines.

00:37:43 ◼   ► They really did reduce the fan noise noticeably

00:37:46 ◼   ► when they moved from the old crappy symmetrical fan blades

00:37:49 ◼   ► to the Retina MacBook Pro in 2012.

00:37:52 ◼   ► When Johnny first talked about the asymmetric fan blade,

00:37:55 ◼   ► they showed the waveform.

00:37:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, it's not louder, but the annoyingness of it,

00:38:01 ◼   ► And the asymmetrical really helped with the annoyingness.

00:38:03 ◼   ► It turned it more into a white noise thing,

00:38:05 ◼   ► but I think it's still not a contest.

00:38:07 ◼   ► I'm annoyed that I can hear the iMac at all.

00:38:09 ◼   ► I'm annoyed at what I hear when I hear a laptop going with,

00:38:13 ◼   ► I haven't heard the new ones obviously,

00:38:14 ◼   ► but the asymmetrical fan ones, they still,

00:38:17 ◼   ► I don't like the sound of a white noise generating machine.

00:38:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, neither do I.

00:38:21 ◼   ► And I don't like, but see, when my iMac fans spin up,

00:38:25 ◼   ► I consider that something that I either need

00:38:27 ◼   ► to put headphones on right now and stop hearing this,

00:38:29 ◼   ► or I need to find the process that is using all my CPU power

00:38:32 ◼   ► and just kill it.

00:38:34 ◼   ► Because I really do not like hearing fan noise while I work.

00:38:37 ◼   ► It's simple as that.

00:38:38 ◼   ► So a Mac Pro is silent under load in most rooms,

00:38:42 ◼   ► and that's one of the reasons I love it,

00:38:43 ◼   ► and that's one of the things I will greatly miss

00:38:45 ◼   ► if it is truly dead forever.

00:38:47 ◼   ► Which, again, I think it's looking increasingly likely.

00:38:50 ◼   ► We'll see what happens next year.

00:38:51 ◼   ► But anyway, so all I was saying was

00:38:54 ◼   ► it doesn't make a lot of sense for me to maintain

00:38:58 ◼   ► two different four core mid-range to high-end machines

00:39:02 ◼   ► from Apple when I occasionally need one on the road,

00:39:05 ◼   ► but most of the time it's at my desk,

00:39:07 ◼   ► it would make more sense to consolidate that

00:39:09 ◼   ► into one computer.

00:39:10 ◼   ► And maybe even pull an iMac/CGP Grey and have two laptops.

00:39:15 ◼   ► Maybe I have that crazy one and also a very small one,

00:39:20 ◼   ► like either an Escape or a MacBook One

00:39:22 ◼   ► for the travel needs during which I don't need

00:39:25 ◼   ► a lot of power and I just want to have

00:39:26 ◼   ► the smallest thing possible.

00:39:27 ◼   ► and that would hardly ever get upgraded.

00:39:29 ◼   ► But that is a world that I probably should go to,

00:39:34 ◼   ► but currently I am not going to that world

00:39:36 ◼   ► because currently I'm still waiting out

00:39:38 ◼   ► the potential Mac Pro of the future.

00:39:41 ◼   ► So I will see.

00:39:42 ◼   ► ATBTster is pointing out in the chat room

00:39:45 ◼   ► that I should not forget that six core chips

00:39:48 ◼   ► will be coming to the iMac consumer core i7 line,

00:39:53 ◼   ► presumably in the near future.

00:39:56 ◼   ► A six core iMac would be awesome.

00:39:59 ◼   ► I would really prefer more.

00:40:01 ◼   ► If I'm gonna upgrade from four, I want a bigger upgrade.

00:40:04 ◼   ► I wanna go to eight or 12 even,

00:40:06 ◼   ► or even more if I can get it.

00:40:08 ◼   ► So it'd be nice to have even more,

00:40:10 ◼   ► but we'll see.

00:40:12 ◼   ► Again, this all depends on what the hardware brings

00:40:16 ◼   ► over the next year or two,

00:40:17 ◼   ► and whether Apple even makes computers

00:40:19 ◼   ► that use these chips that are coming out.

00:40:21 ◼   ► We don't even know that.

00:40:22 ◼   ► So we'll see, time will tell.

00:40:24 ◼   ► But right now I am not going all laptop.

00:40:27 ◼   ► But all I was saying that if I were more sensible,

00:40:30 ◼   ► it would probably be a better allocation of resources

00:40:33 ◼   ► to just do that.

00:40:35 ◼   ► Which is probably the reason

00:40:35 ◼   ► why so many people do exactly that.

00:40:38 ◼   ► - Indeed.

00:40:39 ◼   ► All right, I just wanted to grumble at you publicly

00:40:41 ◼   ► for a moment, so I feel much better now.

00:40:43 ◼   ► Thanks everyone.

00:40:44 ◼   ► - Anytime.

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00:41:56 ◼   ► - Apple has released a new Mac book and things.

00:42:05 ◼   ► There's a new design book and half of me thinks

00:42:11 ◼   ► I really don't see a problem with it.

00:42:14 ◼   ► And half of me thinks, my word,

00:42:16 ◼   ► have they lost all sense of reality?

00:42:18 ◼   ► and I haven't decided which one's which one's which.

00:42:21 ◼   ► - Did anybody see this coming?

00:42:22 ◼   ► - I didn't, for sure.

00:42:25 ◼   ► - I think it's a totally reasonable

00:42:27 ◼   ► and to be expected thing for them to do.

00:42:29 ◼   ► In fact, I'm surprised they don't do more of it.

00:42:32 ◼   ► I mean, they sell shirts with their things on them.

00:42:34 ◼   ► They sell all sorts of merchandise

00:42:36 ◼   ► with this Apple that has Apple stuff on it.

00:42:38 ◼   ► They love having giant posters of all their,

00:42:42 ◼   ► they're proud of their design.

00:42:44 ◼   ► And this particular thing as sort of a capper

00:42:47 ◼   ► to Johnny Ive's career at Apple, it makes total sense.

00:42:49 ◼   ► I don't think it's all that weird.

00:42:51 ◼   ► - There are a few things that are different about it.

00:42:53 ◼   ► I mean, first of all, the t-shirts, mugs and everything,

00:42:56 ◼   ► you can only buy at their company store

00:42:57 ◼   ► or at their conference.

00:42:59 ◼   ► So you can't just go into any Apple store

00:43:01 ◼   ► or go online and order an Apple t-shirt.

00:43:04 ◼   ► That's kind of a limited thing they keep

00:43:06 ◼   ► only to their store.

00:43:08 ◼   ► - I'm assuming this'll be limited too.

00:43:09 ◼   ► How long do you think they'll sell this?

00:43:11 ◼   ► They're not gonna be selling it for five years.

00:43:13 ◼   ► Maybe Tim Cook says, "You know, we can keep selling

00:43:14 ◼   ► "the same design book for 10 years,

00:43:16 ◼   ► and they're out to lower the price.

00:43:17 ◼   ► - Sure, but the other stuff is more like,

00:43:19 ◼   ► it's like a gift shop at a museum.

00:43:21 ◼   ► It's like I went to Apple to either WBC or to their campus,

00:43:25 ◼   ► and so I got this expensive t-shirt because I went there.

00:43:29 ◼   ► And that's a little bit more justifiable

00:43:32 ◼   ► if you have a problem with this.

00:43:32 ◼   ► By the way, I don't necessarily have a problem with this.

00:43:36 ◼   ► I'm mostly indifferent on it.

00:43:37 ◼   ► I mostly don't care that it exists.

00:43:39 ◼   ► I do think it shows a few things worth considering,

00:43:43 ◼   ► things like possible joining out of retirement.

00:43:46 ◼   ► Overall though, it seems poorly timed.

00:43:49 ◼   ► At a time when Apple is being criticized

00:43:52 ◼   ► for neglecting a lot of their product line

00:43:56 ◼   ► and their new release is being criticized

00:44:00 ◼   ► for being an especially poor value for the money

00:44:03 ◼   ► and they appear to have cut dongle prices

00:44:06 ◼   ► in an effort to show maybe that they're not

00:44:09 ◼   ► just trying to get a whole bunch of extra money

00:44:10 ◼   ► from accessory sales.

00:44:12 ◼   ► So it is kind of an unfortunate time,

00:44:15 ◼   ► Even if you ignore the election, which I don't think you should, but even if you ignore that,

00:44:20 ◼   ► this is kind of a weird time for Apple to release an incredibly self-congratulatory,

00:44:25 ◼   ► highfalutin two to three hundred dollar book about themselves.

00:44:28 ◼   ► It's just, it's a little bit poorly timed, I think.

00:44:31 ◼   ► But even if you don't agree with that, if you set that aside, I think it's mostly fine.

00:44:35 ◼   ► I do think it is one of many signs pointing to Johnny Ives probably not that far off departure

00:44:42 ◼   ► or retirement from Apple, or maybe he'll just ascend

00:44:45 ◼   ► further into the clouds of bizarre titles

00:44:47 ◼   ► that mean he doesn't actually do any day-to-day work.

00:44:50 ◼   ► But that might be the same thing, I don't know.

00:44:53 ◼   ► But I'm not sure if I want one or not.

00:44:56 ◼   ► I might be one of the ideal customers for it.

00:45:00 ◼   ► I buy stupid, expensive things all the time.

00:45:02 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:45:03 ◼   ► And I like Apple stuff usually a lot.

00:45:06 ◼   ► As I was looking, though, at some of the pages

00:45:08 ◼   ► that they have on their sample site and everything,

00:45:10 ◼   ► they just kind of make me sad because they show like,

00:45:14 ◼   ► like on their store, the sample show the Mac Mini case

00:45:17 ◼   ► and like the big cutting wheel, I'm sorry,

00:45:19 ◼   ► I don't know the terms for these various manufacturing

00:45:21 ◼   ► tools, like some giant spiky wheel that presumably

00:45:24 ◼   ► carves out part of the inside of the Mac Mini case.

00:45:27 ◼   ► And it's like, oh, that's really nice that you care so much

00:45:29 ◼   ► about the Mac Mini that you'll take this picture

00:45:31 ◼   ► of the machine that makes its case.

00:45:34 ◼   ► What about the product?

00:45:34 ◼   ► That's been pretty neglected pretty badly.

00:45:37 ◼   ► Or it shows like a picture of the bottom assembly

00:45:42 ◼   ► with the lid popping off of the previous generation

00:45:46 ◼   ► non-retina MacBook Pros.

00:45:48 ◼   ► It might even be the 101 exactly.

00:45:50 ◼   ► And it shows the MacBook Pro bottom lid taken off

00:45:54 ◼   ► and you have the removable battery

00:45:56 ◼   ► and you have the removable upgradeable hard drive

00:45:58 ◼   ► and it's like, oh yeah, remember when laptops

00:45:59 ◼   ► were upgradeable and easily repaired?

00:46:02 ◼   ► It's like, I think this book would mostly

00:46:05 ◼   ► just make me sad, honestly, about either computers

00:46:10 ◼   ► that Apple has neglected and that I am sad about,

00:46:13 ◼   ► like the Mac Pro, which I assume is in there,

00:46:17 ◼   ► or features of computers that are no longer present,

00:46:21 ◼   ► that have been cut through the march of, quote,

00:46:24 ◼   ► progress over the years, some of which is real progress,

00:46:26 ◼   ► some of which is just cutting things.

00:46:28 ◼   ► So I don't know how I feel about this for myself,

00:46:32 ◼   ► but if other people wanna have this book and enjoy it,

00:46:35 ◼   ► that's fine, really.

00:46:37 ◼   ► Again, I do think the release is poorly timed,

00:46:39 ◼   ► but other than that, I don't really have a problem with it.

00:46:43 ◼   ► - I think I mostly agree, but I already have a copy.

00:46:45 ◼   ► It's just called Iconic.

00:46:47 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:46:48 ◼   ► - I have Iconic somewhere, I think, too.

00:46:51 ◼   ► I have the old Apple Design book from the '90s.

00:46:54 ◼   ► It's called the, let me check the title again.

00:46:57 ◼   ► - While you're checking, there is one nitpick I do wanna,

00:46:59 ◼   ► I do want to not forget about though.

00:47:02 ◼   ► And that is, so Steve Jobs' name is all over this book.

00:47:05 ◼   ► His name's all over the press release.

00:47:07 ◼   ► They very prominently dedicate it to him and everything.

00:47:10 ◼   ► I think enough people have said that I don't need

00:47:13 ◼   ► to say too much about that it's questionable

00:47:16 ◼   ► whether Jobs would have actually approved this project

00:47:21 ◼   ► and used it.

00:47:22 ◼   ► I will say though that a lot of people keep saying

00:47:24 ◼   ► that this project was started eight years ago

00:47:26 ◼   ► and therefore that was back when Jobs was alive

00:47:28 ◼   ► and therefore he must have implicitly approved it.

00:47:30 ◼   ► And that's not entirely clear.

00:47:33 ◼   ► When Johnny Ive gave the interview to W something,

00:47:36 ◼   ► Wallpaper, whatever it was, I forget, I'm sorry,

00:47:38 ◼   ► it mentioned that they started collecting the product

00:47:41 ◼   ► to photograph eight years ago.

00:47:44 ◼   ► That doesn't mean they started photographing

00:47:45 ◼   ► for this specific project that was approved

00:47:47 ◼   ► by Jobs eight years ago.

00:47:49 ◼   ► So I do wanna make that clear,

00:47:50 ◼   ► that we don't know that Jobs knew this at all.

00:47:53 ◼   ► And I think, I can't imagine that he would have appreciated

00:47:58 ◼   ► it, but it's always risky for tech people like us to say,

00:48:03 ◼   ► well, Steve Jobs wouldn't have done this or wouldn't have

00:48:04 ◼   ► liked this, 'cause you don't really know him.

00:48:06 ◼   ► The guy changed his mind a lot and he's not here anymore

00:48:08 ◼   ► to refute it, so it's not a great thing to rest on.

00:48:11 ◼   ► But I do think plastering his name all over it

00:48:15 ◼   ► is maybe not so great.

00:48:17 ◼   ► - They just dedicated it to him.

00:48:18 ◼   ► It's not like they're trying to build on his image

00:48:22 ◼   ► to make to sell this book like the book sells itself on its merits. It's just dedicated

00:48:27 ◼   ► to him. It's in the memory of their friend. I think that's fine. And if we can say one

00:48:31 ◼   ► thing about this book, it is that Steve Jobs would like to have it in his house. Whether

00:48:36 ◼   ► or not he thinks it's the product Apple should sell, I guarantee you he would love to have

00:48:40 ◼   ► this book. He would sit there on his couch with his bare feet and leaf through it and

00:48:44 ◼   ► look at the great work that he's done. Whether he thinks the things Apple should be selling

00:48:49 ◼   ► is a whole other story where he thinks Apple should have a museum of all their old stuff

00:48:52 ◼   ► there's a whole other story, but he so clearly took pride in all the products that are in

00:48:57 ◼   ► this thing that he himself, just personally, would surely love to have the best possible

00:49:03 ◼   ► photographs on the best possible paper made in Germany with a special gilding around the

00:49:08 ◼   ► edges and he would love this book.

00:49:11 ◼   ► This seems like a really cool thing to make for your employees, or to maybe sell for a

00:49:17 ◼   ► limited time at your campus store.

00:49:20 ◼   ► But to sell it as a whole product,

00:49:22 ◼   ► I think that kind of raises the bar

00:49:24 ◼   ► and raises the level of criticism a bit,

00:49:28 ◼   ► a little bit unnecessarily maybe.

00:49:30 ◼   ► But you know, 'cause I think it would be a lot cooler

00:49:33 ◼   ► if this was a thing for all the employees

00:49:34 ◼   ► that they just all got for free,

00:49:35 ◼   ► which by the way, are they even getting it for free?

00:49:37 ◼   ► Probably not, they're charging $200 for it.

00:49:39 ◼   ► But imagine if they gave this to all the employees

00:49:42 ◼   ► and the handful of Apple collectors who really want it

00:49:45 ◼   ► would have to go find it on eBay or something like that.

00:49:47 ◼   ► it would be so much cooler if you had one if that was the case. I don't know, it just

00:49:52 ◼   ► seems like that might have been a better way to go here.

00:49:54 ◼   ► Yeah, I tend to agree. So I just reached out to the bookcase behind me and grabbed my copy

00:50:00 ◼   ► of "Iconic" and I started paging through it and I landed on page 130 of "Iconic" and

00:50:08 ◼   ► it has a quote which I will read to you. "If you never change anything, then what you can

00:50:13 ◼   ► really engineers kind of incremental. But when you're willing to change things, then

00:50:17 ◼   ► you kind of open up a whole new world of design. This is Big Bob Mansfield at the launch of

00:50:22 ◼   ► the 2012 MacBook Pro, and the accompanying picture is a MacBook Pro that has MagSafe,

00:50:28 ◼   ► Ethernet, FireWire, Thunderbolt, two USB ports, an SD card slot, a line-in, and a headphone

00:50:34 ◼   ► jack. I just thought that was kind of funny.

00:50:36 ◼   ► That's pretty cool.

00:50:37 ◼   ► So, yeah. So when you're willing to change things, then you open up a whole new world

00:50:41 ◼   ► of design, like fewer ports.

00:50:44 ◼   ► So the book next to me is called Apple Design, all one word, capital A, capital D, colon,

00:50:49 ◼   ► the work of the Apple Industrial Design Group.

00:50:51 ◼   ► And it's an older book, so it's got the stuff from before you guys were Mac users, it's

00:50:55 ◼   ► like mostly the era, well, iconic spans the whole range.

00:50:58 ◼   ► But anyway, it's definitely earlier than the stuff that's in this book.

00:51:03 ◼   ► And I could say I would like to own this book too.

00:51:06 ◼   ► I would totally like to own this book.

00:51:08 ◼   ► But I wouldn't like to own it $300 worth at this point.

00:51:13 ◼   ► And here's the thing, like it's not that $300 for a really super high quality photo book

00:51:17 ◼   ► is that big a deal, it's just that for me personally with you know having just bought

00:51:21 ◼   ► a monitor and PlayStation 4 Pro and all sorts of other stuff, I would spend $300 in this

00:51:28 ◼   ► if it was like the making of the Star Wars books that I bought, which by the way weren't

00:51:31 ◼   ► $300.

00:51:32 ◼   ► Like basically if it was lots more words.

00:51:34 ◼   ► Not that I don't like the pictures, I do, I want the pictures, but if it was the pictures,

00:51:39 ◼   ► but also page upon page upon page of the designers, including Johnny himself, telling the story

00:51:46 ◼   ► of how they came up with these designs in as much detail as they can possibly remember.

00:51:50 ◼   ► Again, like the making of the Star Wars books, which are not first person accounts, but it's

00:51:53 ◼   ► like someone researched and talked to all the people involved and tried to lay out,

00:51:57 ◼   ► here's how each of the three original trilogy Star Wars movies was made from conception

00:52:02 ◼   ► through to production and design, talking to all the people involved and getting quotes from them

00:52:06 ◼   ► and putting it all together, that's what I would like to read. And my impression is this book is

00:52:10 ◼   ► either entirely or at least mostly pictures and not so much about "Apple's gonna tell you, you

00:52:15 ◼   ► know, how the sausage is made." I mean, I'm sure there's lots of pictures of prototypes and, you

00:52:19 ◼   ► know, like things with a tool that Marco talked about or whatever, but it's not really like,

00:52:22 ◼   ► "Tell us, how did you come up with this?" Because I would love to read that, but that is not this.

00:52:27 ◼   ► And what I'm saying is basically if those words were in this book, I would pay $300 for it in a

00:52:31 ◼   ► second but just the photos I I have a longing to own this book but cannot

00:52:37 ◼   ► bring myself to part with $300 for it quite yet maybe maybe I'll break down

00:52:41 ◼   ► depends on how long they sell this maybe I'll succumb to it at some point because

00:52:45 ◼   ► I really do want this book I mean I have tons of books like this but boy $300

00:52:50 ◼   ► that's tough and no I don't want the small one because come on that's nothing

00:52:52 ◼   ► why are there two sizes like that's such a good thing just make it one they should

00:52:57 ◼   ► have called the big one the plus. Some people want a larger book.

00:53:00 ◼   ► Obviously. The big one is huge though. The big one, I think, I'm thinking about if I

00:53:04 ◼   ► had that in my house, how the hell would I even fit it on my shelves? I don't think I

00:53:06 ◼   ► even have any shelves. The Making of Star Wars books are a little bit too big for my

00:53:09 ◼   ► shelves too, but you know, if it's photos, come on, you gotta get the big one.

00:53:13 ◼   ► Yeah, I just gotta say, this iconic book, I hadn't paged through it in a long time.

00:53:18 ◼   ► Man, is this a nice book. It really honestly is. And it's cheap now. It's like 50 bucks

00:53:23 ◼   ► on Amazon right now. It's definitely worth it.

00:53:25 ◼   ► I wonder if I can get the business rep discount on the book.

00:53:29 ◼   ► - 15% off your $300 book.

00:53:31 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:53:32 ◼   ► So my Apple design book is right next to

00:53:34 ◼   ► the Art of Kiki's Delivery Service,

00:53:36 ◼   ► The Complete Works of Larry L. Moore.

00:53:38 ◼   ► What else do I have?

00:53:40 ◼   ► A Hyrule Historia, Legend of Zelda book,

00:53:43 ◼   ► all of which are about the same size,

00:53:44 ◼   ► big kind of glossy photo book things,

00:53:46 ◼   ► but none of which cost $300.

00:53:49 ◼   ► - No, I mean, people who know more about art books,

00:53:52 ◼   ► and as you said, Jon,

00:53:54 ◼   ► I don't think it's outrageously priced for what it is,

00:53:58 ◼   ► but it certainly doesn't contribute,

00:54:00 ◼   ► or it certainly doesn't help the recent,

00:54:03 ◼   ► or possibly the forever reputation of Apple

00:54:06 ◼   ► for this elitist company making expensive things

00:54:09 ◼   ► that only for rich people.

00:54:10 ◼   ► This doesn't really help that image at all.

00:54:14 ◼   ► This really, I don't know.

00:54:15 ◼   ► Again, this is not a big deal.

00:54:17 ◼   ► I don't feel that strongly about this book either way.

00:54:19 ◼   ► I might even buy one, who knows?

00:54:20 ◼   ► But I do think it was a little poorly timed

00:54:24 ◼   ► for image sake, I think.

00:54:26 ◼   ► - And see, the weird thing about this book is,

00:54:29 ◼   ► I like the idea that Apple itself is the one doing it,

00:54:32 ◼   ► because as great as iconic is

00:54:34 ◼   ► in the Apple design books or whatever,

00:54:35 ◼   ► Apple presumably, I mean,

00:54:39 ◼   ► you would think they would have access to all this stuff,

00:54:40 ◼   ► but apparently they didn't

00:54:41 ◼   ► and had to go out and buy it or whatever.

00:54:43 ◼   ► But either way, like, they,

00:54:45 ◼   ► Apple's really good at taking pictures of its products.

00:54:48 ◼   ► They have the most experience of anybody in the entire world

00:54:51 ◼   ► taking pictures of Apple products,

00:54:52 ◼   ► because that's what they do,

00:54:53 ◼   ► and they do it really, really well.

00:54:55 ◼   ► And because they're all obsessive, detailed people

00:54:58 ◼   ► about like the printing and the color and the paper,

00:55:00 ◼   ► I bet it's a really nice book, right?

00:55:03 ◼   ► But the one thing that Apple can bring to this book

00:55:07 ◼   ► above and beyond those two things that I just mentioned,

00:55:11 ◼   ► that nobody else can, is that they have the best access

00:55:15 ◼   ► to the people who were involved in making these.

00:55:17 ◼   ► Some of those people may be gone,

00:55:18 ◼   ► although supposedly there's very little turnover

00:55:20 ◼   ► in Johnny Ive's little design group there.

00:55:22 ◼   ► That's the value they can bring to this.

00:55:24 ◼   ► The whole angle you're getting at, Mark,

00:55:25 ◼   ► was like Apple's making a book about how great they are.

00:55:28 ◼   ► That's right, they're making a book about themselves

00:55:29 ◼   ► and saying we are awesome.

00:55:30 ◼   ► Or just look at all these cool things that we made.

00:55:32 ◼   ► Which I guess is okay, but if you wanna blunt that,

00:55:34 ◼   ► it's like don't just make it,

00:55:36 ◼   ► look at these awesome things that we made,

00:55:38 ◼   ► bring the value that only you have.

00:55:39 ◼   ► Tell us the stories, people who worked on these products.

00:55:42 ◼   ► Tell us about how you made them,

00:55:43 ◼   ► because no one else can tell us how they made them.

00:55:45 ◼   ► Other people can take pictures of them.

00:55:47 ◼   ► Other people can make a big glossy photo book.

00:55:49 ◼   ► Other people could probably find the right kind of paper

00:55:52 ◼   ► and do the cool printing and do all the things,

00:55:54 ◼   ► but nobody but you guys can tell us the story

00:55:57 ◼   ► of how these products were made.

00:55:58 ◼   ► And they're not doing that.

00:55:59 ◼   ► So they're like saying how great they are,

00:56:01 ◼   ► but like, I don't want to tell you too much about it.

00:56:04 ◼   ► Just look at this stuff.

00:56:04 ◼   ► We're pretty great, huh?

00:56:05 ◼   ► Nevermind how it was made.

00:56:06 ◼   ► And that definitely shades more into the,

00:56:09 ◼   ► that makes it less forgivable

00:56:12 ◼   ► as an act of self-congratulations,

00:56:15 ◼   ► because if you are describing how you did it,

00:56:17 ◼   ► you're not just congratulating yourself.

00:56:18 ◼   ► Even if the whole book is like,

00:56:19 ◼   ► we had these hard problems and we solved them

00:56:21 ◼   ► because we were super smart.

00:56:22 ◼   ► You're passing on your knowledge.

00:56:24 ◼   ► You're telling the rest of the world,

00:56:26 ◼   ► learn from our lessons,

00:56:28 ◼   ► which you can still do with a lot of ego

00:56:30 ◼   ► and back padding,

00:56:32 ◼   ► but I think that would offset the,

00:56:35 ◼   ► look how great we are angle of it.

00:56:36 ◼   ► And like you said,

00:56:38 ◼   ► and like how many people said,

00:56:40 ◼   ► and like we talked about with the actual,

00:56:41 ◼   ► the new MacBook Pros,

00:56:43 ◼   ► the past several shows,

00:56:45 ◼   ► it's not so much the thing itself,

00:56:46 ◼   ► it's the context into which it's introduced.

00:56:48 ◼   ► And so, like Margaret said,

00:56:49 ◼   ► the timing is bad.

00:56:50 ◼   ► And at this point, almost anything you're introduced

00:56:53 ◼   ► into the context of a certain set of grumpy Apple fans

00:56:57 ◼   ► is going to be looked upon with a very critical eye.

00:57:02 ◼   ► And people are generally in a bad mood

00:57:05 ◼   ► for reasons that some of which

00:57:06 ◼   ► may be outside Apple's control.

00:57:08 ◼   ► Whatever, if they've been building towards this

00:57:11 ◼   ► for eight years, fine, whatever, release it.

00:57:13 ◼   ► Like holiday season, it's a good gift idea

00:57:16 ◼   ► for the Apple nerd in your life.

00:57:20 ◼   ► I don't fault them, I don't think it's that big a deal.

00:57:22 ◼   ► I just wish it wasn't $300 'cause I really want this book.

00:57:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:57:26 ◼   ► - You know, and one thing, I think you nailed it about,

00:57:29 ◼   ► like, you know, part of the sense

00:57:30 ◼   ► that it rubs people the wrong way

00:57:31 ◼   ► is the fact that there is, there are, you know,

00:57:33 ◼   ► no words or as you said, like, you know,

00:57:35 ◼   ► they have access to the people.

00:57:38 ◼   ► They could have added a human, a more human touch

00:57:40 ◼   ► and it seems like they, I mean, we haven't read the book yet

00:57:44 ◼   ► but from the few sample pages we've seen,

00:57:46 ◼   ► it really does seem like they didn't, you know,

00:57:47 ◼   ► there's no words in it.

00:57:49 ◼   ► And I think if I had to summarize, I guess,

00:57:54 ◼   ► the main disappointment I have with Apple recently,

00:57:58 ◼   ► which I think a lot of people feel

00:57:59 ◼   ► but might not have put into words,

00:58:01 ◼   ► is that it seems to just lack humanity recently.

00:58:06 ◼   ► This might be a Steve to Tim thing, I don't know.

00:58:10 ◼   ► I haven't given a ton of thought to this yet.

00:58:12 ◼   ► It's hard to put it into words.

00:58:13 ◼   ► But Steve, even though we knew he could be cold and ruthless

00:58:18 ◼   ► ruthless to people when he had to be, his public persona, which really did reflect upon

00:58:25 ◼   ► the whole company to the public, was really quite warm and human. And with the transition

00:58:32 ◼   ► to Tim Cook's Apple and Johnny Ive's Apple, which is, you know, that's really what this

00:58:37 ◼   ► is these days, Apple, the public image that we get, even though most of the same people

00:58:43 ◼   ► are still there, but the public image that is shown to us, what gets out, is a lot more

00:58:48 ◼   ► cold and the humanity has been stripped out of it.

00:58:52 ◼   ► And I think part of what bugged people about things

00:58:55 ◼   ► like removing the startup chime on the new MacBook Pros

00:58:57 ◼   ► and removing the light up logo on the back

00:59:00 ◼   ► is like that's a little bit more of this humanity

00:59:02 ◼   ► that's just being pulled out of the products

00:59:05 ◼   ► and we don't see warmth and humanity

00:59:09 ◼   ► as much as we used to anymore.

00:59:10 ◼   ► A promo video showing what people are doing

00:59:13 ◼   ► with the products is different.

00:59:14 ◼   ► - Do you think it's humanity?

00:59:15 ◼   ► - I do, I do think it's humanity.

00:59:17 ◼   ► I think we don't--

00:59:18 ◼   ► - I would say, you don't think whimsy is a better word?

00:59:21 ◼   ► 'Cause a whim, there's a stronger case for whimsy

00:59:23 ◼   ► because humanity, I think of like,

00:59:25 ◼   ► Tim Cook is much more into, you know,

00:59:28 ◼   ► the human aspects or social aspects

00:59:32 ◼   ► of both the products and the company

00:59:34 ◼   ► than Steve Jobs ever was.

00:59:35 ◼   ► And Tim Cook, in the Tim Cook era,

00:59:37 ◼   ► he's the one who's constantly starting presentations

00:59:39 ◼   ► with videos about accessibility

00:59:42 ◼   ► and people who are being, you know,

00:59:44 ◼   ► human story of being empowered by Apple products. I would call that human too, but whimsical is,

00:59:51 ◼   ► you know, where like it is dorky. Maybe, you know, whimsy is just like the little happy Mac and the

00:59:59 ◼   ► chime and the little poof animation and stuff. Silly things like that seem to not be to Johnny

01:00:06 ◼   ► Ive's taste because he's not into the poof, right? He's not into the happy Mac, the smile,

01:00:12 ◼   ► and the chime, he's into the iPhone that doesn't even have a logo that you can see when you

01:00:16 ◼   ► look at it, right?

01:00:18 ◼   ► And Tim Cook is deferring to Johnny Ive in that way, so I think you're right to refer

01:00:21 ◼   ► to it as the Tim Cook/Johnny Ive Apple.

01:00:24 ◼   ► So there is definitely less sense of whimsy.

01:00:27 ◼   ► And whimsy can be seen as warmth and his design aesthetic can be thought of as cold, but I

01:00:31 ◼   ► think Tim Cook's Apple and Tim Cook specifically are all about humanity, just not about dorkiness

01:00:39 ◼   ► and whimsy.

01:00:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, again, I'm not saying that the company,

01:00:43 ◼   ► 'cause the same people are mostly there, right,

01:00:46 ◼   ► especially at the upper levels,

01:00:47 ◼   ► not a lot has changed there.

01:00:49 ◼   ► We know that they do good, these are good people,

01:00:53 ◼   ► and they do good things for the world,

01:00:55 ◼   ► but it doesn't come across, the amount of warmth,

01:01:00 ◼   ► and maybe humanity might not be exactly the right word,

01:01:03 ◼   ► I do think whimsy's part of it,

01:01:04 ◼   ► but I don't think whimsy covers all of what I'm missing.

01:01:07 ◼   ► - What about the ads, like when they show,

01:01:09 ◼   ► - A lot of their recent ads have been all about

01:01:12 ◼   ► showing people using the product.

01:01:13 ◼   ► Remember the one with the kid with his nose

01:01:15 ◼   ► buried in his phone during the holidays,

01:01:17 ◼   ► the Christmas thing, and at the end he's made the video

01:01:19 ◼   ► of them making the stuff.

01:01:20 ◼   ► Or just like the people who, with your watch,

01:01:22 ◼   ► you get up and it's early in the morning,

01:01:24 ◼   ► it's still dark out, you lay up your sneakers,

01:01:25 ◼   ► you put on your watch, you go out running,

01:01:27 ◼   ► or you're running through the rain

01:01:28 ◼   ► with your now water-resistant phone.

01:01:30 ◼   ► Their ads, even more than they used to be,

01:01:33 ◼   ► have been less about glorifying the objects

01:01:35 ◼   ► as these beautiful totems of technology

01:01:37 ◼   ► as like, look how smooth and sleek it is,

01:01:38 ◼   ► which they still do in the presentations to us,

01:01:40 ◼   ► but on television, it's all about the people.

01:01:43 ◼   ► It's all about, I am a runner, I like to take photographs,

01:01:46 ◼   ► I'm on a family vacation, and buy this device

01:01:49 ◼   ► and your kid will look like a sulky teenager,

01:01:52 ◼   ► really, he will be a loving, wonderful, creative child,

01:01:55 ◼   ► which is false advertising, but anyway.

01:01:57 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:01:59 ◼   ► He'll just sulk and won't actually make a video for you.

01:02:01 ◼   ► He's just texting his friends all the time.

01:02:04 ◼   ► The ad seems to be focusing on, again,

01:02:06 ◼   ► the humanity of, like, that it's not about the product,

01:02:11 ◼   ► it's about the people

01:02:12 ◼   ► and what the products enable the people to do.

01:02:14 ◼   ► So again, that's, you know,

01:02:15 ◼   ► Apple chooses what kind of ads it makes,

01:02:16 ◼   ► like the advertising company makes them,

01:02:18 ◼   ► but Apple can give them the direction.

01:02:20 ◼   ► And it is less like that, you know,

01:02:22 ◼   ► in the Steve Jobs era, you had a series of commercials

01:02:25 ◼   ► that were all about showing you the hardware,

01:02:27 ◼   ► like the LifeSavers iMacs flying across the screen.

01:02:29 ◼   ► Look, they're shiny and colored,

01:02:30 ◼   ► and look at the, when the iMac SE came out,

01:02:33 ◼   ► it's all sleek and graphitey, like,

01:02:36 ◼   ► Those were more obsessed with the objects

01:02:38 ◼   ► 'cause that was all about like,

01:02:39 ◼   ► hey, hardware can be fashion and look at these things.

01:02:43 ◼   ► And I think it started to shift with the iPod

01:02:44 ◼   ► where it was like, yeah, there's silhouettes dancing

01:02:47 ◼   ► and you can see the iPod with the white cord,

01:02:48 ◼   ► but it's all about people dancing and music.

01:02:50 ◼   ► And at this point, they're selling phones

01:02:53 ◼   ► by showing you people jogging, right?

01:02:55 ◼   ► So it is so far from,

01:02:56 ◼   ► I think it is definitely a very human approach.

01:03:00 ◼   ► But again, I would say that the product designs themselves

01:03:04 ◼   ► and what things the company decides to do

01:03:08 ◼   ► definitely seem less whimsical and less dorky

01:03:11 ◼   ► and I can see that as being more cold and less warm.

01:03:14 ◼   ► - The ads, you're right, the ads are fine,

01:03:16 ◼   ► but they're ads, they're commercials.

01:03:18 ◼   ► I'm referring to mostly the products

01:03:21 ◼   ► and then some also of the presentations

01:03:24 ◼   ► by the actual humans on stage at the events.

01:03:28 ◼   ► So again, it's hard to not make this about Steve

01:03:32 ◼   ► because Steve was really good at really being personable

01:03:37 ◼   ► up there on stage, and whether it was rehearsed

01:03:39 ◼   ► or fake or real or whatever, I don't know.

01:03:42 ◼   ► It didn't matter.

01:03:43 ◼   ► It really did come across as genuine and real and warm.

01:03:47 ◼   ► And that's what I miss, both on stage,

01:03:50 ◼   ► I don't care about the videos,

01:03:51 ◼   ► the use of more and more videos actually, to me,

01:03:53 ◼   ► feels colder, it feels more artificial.

01:03:56 ◼   ► But that's beside the point for now.

01:03:59 ◼   ► All I'm saying is I miss this level of warmth

01:04:03 ◼   ► that we used to get from them in these presentations,

01:04:06 ◼   ► and then I think the whimsy in the product is part of that.

01:04:10 ◼   ► That showed in the products,

01:04:12 ◼   ► and it seems like modern Apple is all about

01:04:15 ◼   ► really editing that out as part of a march

01:04:18 ◼   ► towards quote simplifying or quote progress,

01:04:21 ◼   ► but we're losing a lot of that,

01:04:24 ◼   ► and we don't seem to be gaining it in many areas anymore.

01:04:27 ◼   ► it seemed like the company just moved on past that.

01:04:30 ◼   ► It's just now, it's just a lot more like cold

01:04:32 ◼   ► and almost robotic.

01:04:34 ◼   ► So this book coming out with all pictures

01:04:37 ◼   ► of Johnny Ives' robotic tools in stark white backgrounds

01:04:42 ◼   ► with no words, I think is kind of like a culmination

01:04:46 ◼   ► of that cold process.

01:04:49 ◼   ► And that's what kind of rubs me the wrong way

01:04:50 ◼   ► about the book and about Apple today,

01:04:53 ◼   ► if I had to summarize it down.

01:04:55 ◼   ► Again, I'm sorry if I'm not expressing this well.

01:04:59 ◼   ► This is really still a very squishy thought in my head,

01:05:02 ◼   ► but I'm trying to put into words a complex feeling

01:05:07 ◼   ► that I've been feeling over a while,

01:05:08 ◼   ► but I just miss that warmth that we used to get,

01:05:12 ◼   ► whether it was real or not,

01:05:14 ◼   ► from both Steve and the products,

01:05:16 ◼   ► that I think we're really missing a lot of that recently.

01:05:19 ◼   ► - So if you were to get this book,

01:05:20 ◼   ► and if it was chronological, which I'm not sure that it is,

01:05:22 ◼   ► but if it is chronological, you could flip through it

01:05:25 ◼   ► and watch the whimsy slowly drain out of the product

01:05:27 ◼   ► as you start with Tangerine IMAX

01:05:31 ◼   ► and all these brightly colored things that like,

01:05:34 ◼   ► the toilet seat eye books and all these things

01:05:37 ◼   ► that just look so exciting and Dr. Suessy

01:05:40 ◼   ► and slowly but surely everything turns silver and glass

01:05:44 ◼   ► and uniform and not shiny and not matte

01:05:48 ◼   ► and just in betweeny and just it smooths out.

01:05:54 ◼   ► Which I like both those aesthetics.

01:05:56 ◼   ► That's why I think this book highlights some of Apple's best work in terms of industrial

01:06:01 ◼   ► design because it does include all the way from the vibrancy of the original iMacs and

01:06:09 ◼   ► even the one with the big neck and all the other stuff all the way up to the modern era

01:06:15 ◼   ► of everything being sleek and clean.

01:06:17 ◼   ► Those are both great aesthetics, but chronologically speaking, you can see the trend.

01:06:23 ◼   ► I could just read the book backwards and make myself feel really happy.

01:06:25 ◼   ► You could Benjamin Button it.

01:06:29 ◼   ► I think I agree with you Marco.

01:06:32 ◼   ► I just can't shake this feeling that Apple is reluctantly moving closer and closer to

01:06:39 ◼   ► being the IBM that they fought so hard against when you and I were like really little.

01:06:45 ◼   ► Let's not go crazy here.

01:06:47 ◼   ► No, I don't think they're there, but if you look at the IBM of the early to mid 80s, probably even

01:06:55 ◼   ► late 80s, it was not boring, but certainly it did not have whimsy. And I would not say that Apple's

01:07:02 ◼   ► products today are boring by any stretch of the imagination, but I agree that they've lost some

01:07:07 ◼   ► of that. And I actually think humanity is a good word for it, if a bit overblown, but I can't come

01:07:15 ◼   ► up with a better one, and I think I like humanity more than whimsy, but anyway, it just doesn't

01:07:19 ◼   ► feel as happy-go-lucky as it used to.

01:07:24 ◼   ► And I think part of that is no longer being the underdog and is now being king of the

01:07:28 ◼   ► hill, which maybe that's our perception.

01:07:32 ◼   ► Maybe it's that because we perceive them as king of the hill, we perceive them as boring

01:07:36 ◼   ► and they're anything but.

01:07:38 ◼   ► But I don't know, I don't think that's the case.

01:07:40 ◼   ► And I agree with you, and it's funny because on the one side I love the look of the new

01:07:44 ◼   ► Macbook Pro, at least in photographs. I haven't seen one in person yet, but in

01:07:47 ◼   ► photographs it looks phenomenal. I love it. I think it looks really great, and I

01:07:53 ◼   ► think that's in part because, you know, a very black aesthetic appeals to me. But

01:07:58 ◼   ► yet I miss the fun of all these different colored iMacs. You know, the

01:08:04 ◼   ► computers that I saw running around campus when I was in school in the early

01:08:07 ◼   ► 2000s, they just looked fun. And I wouldn't say a new Macbook Pro looks fun.

01:08:11 ◼   ► It looks really damn good. It looks more aesthetically good. I'd say than perhaps any other

01:08:18 ◼   ► Laptop on the market today and in fact I've said before and I'll say again this iPhone 7

01:08:23 ◼   ► I'm holding in my hands right now this this matte black iPhone 7. I think it's the best looking iPhone

01:08:29 ◼   ► I've seen yet. However, I

01:08:31 ◼   ► Wouldn't say it looks fun despite it looking really good and I miss that kind of fun aspect

01:08:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, and I'm not saying the products are bad.

01:08:41 ◼   ► The products are in many ways better than ever now.

01:08:46 ◼   ► By most measures, most of the products are better than ever.

01:08:50 ◼   ► They're still good products.

01:08:52 ◼   ► In many ways, they're still great products.

01:08:54 ◼   ► But again, it's this feeling that I'm missing

01:08:58 ◼   ► that we used to have here.

01:09:00 ◼   ► And maybe I'm just old and jaded and boring, I don't know.

01:09:04 ◼   ► Maybe I'm just mad about the Mac Pro still, I don't know.

01:09:06 ◼   ► But it just feels like I'm missing this feeling.

01:09:10 ◼   ► - I'm not, well I am old and jaded,

01:09:12 ◼   ► but I'm not jaded about the Mac Pro specifically.

01:09:14 ◼   ► - There we go.

01:09:15 ◼   ► - And I'm not jaded about the MacBook Pro specifically.

01:09:18 ◼   ► And I do largely agree with you that it just,

01:09:21 ◼   ► it's not as fun as it once was.

01:09:23 ◼   ► And again, maybe is that just by virtue of them

01:09:26 ◼   ► being no longer the underdog?

01:09:28 ◼   ► So you know, it's fun to root for the underdog.

01:09:31 ◼   ► It's not fun to root for the king of the hill.

01:09:32 ◼   ► So maybe it's misplaced, maybe the problem is us.

01:09:35 ◼   ► But I agree with you, nevertheless.

01:09:38 ◼   ► I think the design trend that is described from the more whimsical computers that varied more

01:09:44 ◼   ► widely in shape and color and texture and everything about them to the current design is a natural

01:09:49 ◼   ► consequence of the advance of the technology. Because as we acquire the technology to make the

01:09:56 ◼   ► products that we have now that, you know, in the case of eye devices are essentially rectangles

01:10:00 ◼   ► that are screens that get increasingly thinner, and for the case of laptops, a screen rectangle

01:10:06 ◼   ► and then a rectangle with a keyboard and an increasingly large trackpad, your options

01:10:10 ◼   ► for industrial design start to be in conflict with the advances that you're, you know, reaping

01:10:17 ◼   ► the benefits of actually being able to make it smaller. Like, if you look at the size

01:10:20 ◼   ► of the plastic that surrounds the screen on the toilet seat iMacs, it is vast, right?

01:10:27 ◼   ► that allows you to make this cool-looking, strange oblong kind of purse-like design and

01:10:31 ◼   ► everything that gives you the room to make those big scoops and colors and contrasts.

01:10:36 ◼   ► But there's no more room for that in a world where it's basically a screen with the margins

01:10:41 ◼   ► slowly shrinking around it, or like the laptops getting thinner and thinner and smaller and

01:10:46 ◼   ► tighter and tighter.

01:10:47 ◼   ► And why fight that?

01:10:49 ◼   ► The correct direction is, aesthetically speaking, to say embrace that and embrace an aesthetic

01:10:55 ◼   ► that can work with increasingly svelte devices.

01:11:00 ◼   ► And that is yet another reason to add to the list

01:11:03 ◼   ► of why the Mac Pro would be great,

01:11:04 ◼   ► because the Mac Pro does not have a screen on it.

01:11:07 ◼   ► You do have the freedom to make it,

01:11:09 ◼   ► they can make it shaped like a soccer ball,

01:11:11 ◼   ► it can be shaped like a spiral,

01:11:12 ◼   ► apparently it can be shaped like a garbage can,

01:11:14 ◼   ► it can be shaped like a cheese grater.

01:11:15 ◼   ► It actually gives them the most options

01:11:19 ◼   ► in terms of industrial design,

01:11:20 ◼   ► because they are no longer constrained

01:11:21 ◼   ► by the fact that you have to carry it

01:11:23 ◼   ► and that making it smaller and thinner and lighter is such a benefit in the long run

01:11:27 ◼   ► that they can't afford to put a giant plastic handle on it and a huge three inch border

01:11:30 ◼   ► around the entire screen because that's ridiculous, like no one wants that anymore.

01:11:34 ◼   ► It looks old and it is old and it's bad.

01:11:36 ◼   ► But when it sits on your desk or under your desk, a lot more options open up and so it's

01:11:40 ◼   ► just another reason that it would be a shame if they totally gave up that form factor.

01:11:44 ◼   ► Or if they said, even in that form factor, you want it to be as small and minimal as

01:11:49 ◼   ► possible and so that's how you get the current Mac Mini and the Apple TV which are just the

01:11:52 ◼   ► most, you know, it's not appropriate, I think, for those things to be, well maybe the Apple

01:11:56 ◼   ► TV because that should be boring because you don't even see it, but the Mac Mini, you can

01:12:00 ◼   ► have a little bit more fun with that maybe. Put some vents and strakes on it, make it

01:12:04 ◼   ► look like a Ferrari, I don't know. But there's no reason for it to be as boring as it is.

01:12:08 ◼   ► But there are reasons for the phone to be as boring as it is and for the laptops to

01:12:11 ◼   ► be not as boring, but like for them to look like they do, I think there are very good

01:12:15 ◼   ► reasons for them to do that and I think if they had tried to keep the old aesthetic while

01:12:19 ◼   ► going along with the market technology that allows you to make them thinner and lighter,

01:12:23 ◼   ► it would be a bad tension between those two things. You can't make a modern laptop that

01:12:28 ◼   ► looks like the toilet seat iBook. You just can't. It's not the right design approach.

01:12:32 ◼   ► Back then it was, now it's not. Now you could take the current ones and make them in candy

01:12:37 ◼   ► apple red with the same form factor, making it like polished glossy candy apple red, and

01:12:41 ◼   ► that would be fun, but it's still, you know, like, color and texture is basically all they

01:12:47 ◼   ► have left to play with because shape-wise it's not like they're gonna be adding fins and strakes,

01:12:51 ◼   ► you know, tail fins on the next iPad Pro or whatever.

01:12:54 ◼   ► Yeah, I agree. Like, why couldn't we have all the colors of the 5C on the 7, you know? Because

01:13:03 ◼   ► those were fun, I thought. And I think they appealed to a lot of people that perhaps weren't

01:13:08 ◼   ► as, you know, technically minded in terms of stats and like having to have the latest and greatest.

01:13:14 ◼   ► I still see 5Cs floating around from time to time, so why not have that color range

01:13:19 ◼   ► on the top of the line phone?

01:13:21 ◼   ► Well, because it's not proper?

01:13:22 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know.

01:13:23 ◼   ► I just, I do kind of miss that.

01:13:25 ◼   ► Even though, even though on the one side I wouldn't ever pick any of those, I guess this

01:13:30 ◼   ► is my Halo car.

01:13:31 ◼   ► Like, I don't really see the need for a Mac Pro, and I'm not trying to open up that conversation

01:13:34 ◼   ► again, but to me I don't see the need for a Mac Pro.

01:13:37 ◼   ► But I do like—I would notice an array of colors on the iPhone 7 and be pleased that

01:13:44 ◼   ► they exist even though there was no freaking way I would choose anything but matte black

01:13:48 ◼   ► or maybe jet black.

01:13:49 ◼   ► I like the Naked Robotic Core again.

01:13:51 ◼   ► It's like, in real life, you see phones that are all sorts of colors.

01:13:54 ◼   ► That's just not the color of the phone.

01:13:55 ◼   ► It's the color of people's cases.

01:13:56 ◼   ► I see phone cases.

01:13:58 ◼   ► It's a huge range of colors, textures, sizes, features, ones that you can put your credit

01:14:02 ◼   ► card into, ones that have a place for a stylist to go into.

01:14:04 ◼   ► Like, there's huge things with mirrors on the back of them.

01:14:07 ◼   ► They just think clamshell ones, ones with covers, you know, just huge range, but that's

01:14:12 ◼   ► Apple's not doing any of that.

01:14:14 ◼   ► They're just giving you the acrobatic core.

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01:15:37 ◼   ► - We've been putting off for a long time

01:15:42 ◼   ► talking about this Microsoft Surface Studio.

01:15:47 ◼   ► And I think that we should probably talk

01:15:50 ◼   ► about the Nintendo Switch.

01:15:51 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:15:54 ◼   ► We don't actually have to do that, but I couldn't resist.

01:15:56 ◼   ► - We should do the Surface Studio first.

01:15:57 ◼   ► And in fact, it's been so long

01:16:00 ◼   ► since the Surface Studio event, whatever the heck that was,

01:16:03 ◼   ► I think we need the Chief Summarizer and Chief to remind everyone what the hell the Microsoft

01:16:07 ◼   ► Surface Studio is. What if the Chief Summarizer and Chief doesn't remember anymore? No, I can

01:16:13 ◼   ► wing it. So this was, I don't recall exactly what it was, but it was a few weeks ago that Microsoft

01:16:20 ◼   ► had some sort of product demo where they debuted the Surface Studio, which at first appeared to be

01:16:31 ◼   ► an iMac. In many ways it just seemed like an iMac. An iMac, but, well, I guess I should say an iMac and

01:16:36 ◼   ► a Mac Mini, right? Because it's the screen of an iMac, it appeared, it's 28 inches, and this, and the

01:16:44 ◼   ► computer bits are in a base that looks very much like a Mac Mini. It's all black and aluminum, or at

01:16:52 ◼   ► least aluminum colored, and it all looks very snazzy, and I don't mean that sarcastically, it really

01:16:56 ◼   ► honestly does look good. And at first it was like, "Okay, great, you're doing an iMac,

01:17:01 ◼   ► woo-woo." But then they mentioned that, "Oh, this is a touchscreen, a 28-inch touchscreen."

01:17:06 ◼   ► And suddenly people start to go, "Hmm, okay, tell me more." And then the real party trick

01:17:13 ◼   ► happened, which was Microsoft explained why there are two arms going from the Mac Mini

01:17:18 ◼   ► to the iMac, and those arms allow you, from what they showed, allow you to very effortlessly

01:17:27 ◼   ► turn this iMac into kind of an easel.

01:17:31 ◼   ► So it's at a very, very shallow angle, such that you could use it as though it's a writing

01:17:36 ◼   ► surface.

01:17:37 ◼   ► And it has with it their equivalent of an Apple Pencil.

01:17:40 ◼   ► And even more importantly, it has—or maybe not more importantly, but differently—it

01:17:46 ◼   ► also has a surface dial. And so what this is, is a little puck sort of thing. It's actually

01:17:53 ◼   ► not that dissimilar from the puck mouse that everyone hated, but much taller. And you can

01:17:58 ◼   ► sit that on your desk and you can spin it in order to, I don't know, change volume or

01:18:02 ◼   ► get different, you know, tools as you're using the pen. But where it gets even cooler still,

01:18:08 ◼   ► and you have to understand that this hinge that they have genuinely is really neat. It

01:18:12 ◼   ► It looks really, really clever.

01:18:14 ◼   ► But what's cooler still about the Surface Dial, this puck, is that you can drop this

01:18:18 ◼   ► thing right on the display, and the display recognizes that it's there and where it is,

01:18:23 ◼   ► and allows you to treat that as another control surface.

01:18:27 ◼   ► So in the way that the naked robotic core is the most pure realization of what somebody

01:18:34 ◼   ► would want for a computing device, of what Apple would want for an iPhone, I think not

01:18:40 ◼   ► Not that this is a naked robotic core, but I feel like this is the most pure realization

01:18:44 ◼   ► of what Microsoft hopes for, for this world that to me is a little bizarro, where you

01:18:51 ◼   ► have a touch-based or touch-permitted, if nothing else, desktop OS.

01:18:57 ◼   ► So Microsoft's strategy for many years now with its Windows thing, especially as the

01:19:02 ◼   ► Windows phone stuff has been fading, has been to have a single OS for all their platforms.

01:19:09 ◼   ► And because that single OS has part of its family tree is phones and tablet type devices

01:19:14 ◼   ► that of course it supports touch, which is why you can do touch in Windows with Windows

01:19:19 ◼   ► 8 that started, and they're up to Windows 10 now.

01:19:22 ◼   ► And so they've been changing Windows to be an interface that you can use with a mouse

01:19:26 ◼   ► and a keyboard, you can use with a pen, you can use with your fingers.

01:19:29 ◼   ► And they've been doing this for a long time, and to varying results.

01:19:32 ◼   ► I know some people have the Microsoft Surface, their tablet product that is basically like,

01:19:36 ◼   ► You can use it like a PC with a keyboard attached to it because it's got a hinge thing.

01:19:39 ◼   ► You can use it kind of like a tablet.

01:19:41 ◼   ► If you're using it like a laptop, you can also just poke your finger at the screen,

01:19:44 ◼   ► which I'm sure we've all seen this.

01:19:46 ◼   ► Many people just expect to be able to do that, especially younger people or anyone even who

01:19:49 ◼   ► just uses a touch device for a long time.

01:19:52 ◼   ► They'll switch from an environment where they're using a tablet or a phone to a laptop and

01:19:55 ◼   ► instinctively touch the screen.

01:19:56 ◼   ► I know I used to do it with Kindles before the touchscreen Kindles.

01:20:00 ◼   ► Because I spent so much time with iPads, I would touch the screen to try to do something

01:20:04 ◼   ► on a Kindle.

01:20:05 ◼   ► would happen because they were totally inert, like there was no—this is before the touch-sensitive

01:20:08 ◼   ► ones—it is natural to get into that habit, and Microsoft has built an entire interface

01:20:13 ◼   ► strategy around the idea that all forms of input are welcome, that it should be supported.

01:20:18 ◼   ► They've been changing Windows to not require a perfectly precise mouse pointer or even

01:20:24 ◼   ► a stylus to do things, to try to make bigger, chunkier controls and gestures and stuff like

01:20:29 ◼   ► that.

01:20:30 ◼   ► And this Surface Studio is the biggest this has gotten because previously it was like,

01:20:35 ◼   ► yeah, you get tablets and you got these convertible laptop-y things that are like a tablet with

01:20:38 ◼   ► a keyboard and yeah, of course you can touch the screen and they have the pen input and

01:20:43 ◼   ► all that stuff.

01:20:44 ◼   ► But this is like 28 inches is like, this is not a big tablet.

01:20:48 ◼   ► This is a full size, bigger than most people have because most people do not have 28 inch

01:20:52 ◼   ► screens on their PCs.

01:20:54 ◼   ► Full size personal computer running Windows.

01:20:57 ◼   ► Doesn't pretend to be a tablet.

01:20:58 ◼   ► You can't take it off and carry it like a tablet.

01:21:00 ◼   ► It's not a big phone.

01:21:02 ◼   ► It is a personal computer that has all the normal input modes

01:21:07 ◼   ► you'd want, including a pen, but then also accepts not just

01:21:12 ◼   ► touch, but like-- stop thinking of it as like I'm touching

01:21:15 ◼   ► the screen, but more like removing indirection.

01:21:19 ◼   ► Because the mouse and the keyboard

01:21:20 ◼   ► are indirect input devices.

01:21:22 ◼   ► And they are wonderful input devices,

01:21:25 ◼   ► and they're very precise.

01:21:27 ◼   ► and especially the mouse I feel like is the least indirect of indirect-imposed devices

01:21:31 ◼   ► because if you've used a mouse for any appreciable amount of time, the indirection disappears

01:21:37 ◼   ► very quickly.

01:21:38 ◼   ► You don't feel like you're driving the mouse, versus like say you had a joystick.

01:21:41 ◼   ► If you had a joystick, you would feel like you're driving the mouse cursor around the

01:21:44 ◼   ► screen like it's a little car to get to the things you want.

01:21:47 ◼   ► But if you have a mouse, you just basically feel like you're grabbing things on the screen.

01:21:50 ◼   ► And yes, it is indirect, you're not touching it, it's not as direct as touching the screen

01:21:54 ◼   ► as anyone who uses an iPad or an iPhone knows,

01:21:56 ◼   ► not that kind of direct,

01:21:57 ◼   ► but it is like really good video game controls

01:22:00 ◼   ► in that very quickly it disappears

01:22:02 ◼   ► and you stop thinking about the control

01:22:04 ◼   ► and just start thinking about the task.

01:22:06 ◼   ► But the ultimate direct input is like literal direct input

01:22:09 ◼   ► as in you see something on the screen,

01:22:12 ◼   ► you manipulate it on the screen

01:22:13 ◼   ► with your hands and your fingers or your pen,

01:22:15 ◼   ► like the same way you would in the pre-computer age

01:22:18 ◼   ► if you're doing something that involves

01:22:21 ◼   ► putting marks on a piece of paper

01:22:22 ◼   ► or shuffling things around,

01:22:24 ◼   ► put marks on the piece of paper or shuffle things around.

01:22:26 ◼   ► Like do it, don't move something that moves another thing

01:22:29 ◼   ► on a screen that represents the things you're moving around.

01:22:31 ◼   ► Just get right on that screen.

01:22:32 ◼   ► And this thing tilting down to like a drafting table

01:22:35 ◼   ► type angle, saying like, if you're not doing text input,

01:22:40 ◼   ► you're not writing a program, but instead you're doing

01:22:43 ◼   ► anything having to do with visual arts

01:22:45 ◼   ► or anything like that, turn it down,

01:22:48 ◼   ► set aside your keyboard and your mouse for now,

01:22:50 ◼   ► and just get right on there on that screen.

01:22:52 ◼   ► It's a huge screen, just get right on there.

01:22:53 ◼   ► you got a pen, you got your fingers,

01:22:55 ◼   ► you got the little dialy thing.

01:22:56 ◼   ► I can imagine them adding more types of tools to that.

01:22:59 ◼   ► That to me is the culmination of their strategy

01:23:04 ◼   ► of allowing all forms of input by saying,

01:23:07 ◼   ► here's a form of input.

01:23:08 ◼   ► Not only do we accept all forms of input,

01:23:10 ◼   ► it's like, oh, you can't decide,

01:23:11 ◼   ► you should concentrate on one.

01:23:11 ◼   ► It's kind of weird to type and then use a mouse,

01:23:13 ◼   ► but also touch a screen and make up your mind.

01:23:14 ◼   ► Am I clicking the button with the mouse cursor?

01:23:16 ◼   ► Am I touching it with my finger?

01:23:17 ◼   ► Am I drawing with a pen? What am I doing?

01:23:19 ◼   ► There are many tasks in which directly interacting

01:23:22 ◼   ► with a gigantic screen is the best interface.

01:23:25 ◼   ► The task where you put aside all those other tools

01:23:29 ◼   ► and say, I just want to get right to it.

01:23:30 ◼   ► And obviously they're showing art and stuff like that.

01:23:32 ◼   ► It's the most obvious one.

01:23:34 ◼   ► And this is their first crack at this,

01:23:35 ◼   ► so maybe it's not as good as it could be.

01:23:37 ◼   ► People have said that there's too much parallax

01:23:39 ◼   ► because your pen is too far away from where the pixels are.

01:23:43 ◼   ► And that there's lag in some of the applications.

01:23:44 ◼   ► But I really feel like this is almost inevitably

01:23:49 ◼   ► the future of digital art,

01:23:51 ◼   ► whether Microsoft is going to be the future of digital,

01:23:54 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:23:54 ◼   ► But we've gone through the whole thing of using mice

01:23:58 ◼   ► to using tablets that are an indirect input device

01:24:02 ◼   ► to the Wacom Cintiq, which is like a tablet

01:24:04 ◼   ► that's also a screen.

01:24:06 ◼   ► It's like, just keep going,

01:24:08 ◼   ► because people love all those tools

01:24:09 ◼   ► and they get used to those tools.

01:24:11 ◼   ► But direct input, if you can raise a generation

01:24:14 ◼   ► with the expectation that you do your artwork

01:24:15 ◼   ► on a giant 28-inch monitor by directly manipulating it,

01:24:20 ◼   ► that's gonna win in the end,

01:24:22 ◼   ► whether it's Microsoft or somebody else.

01:24:24 ◼   ► And Microsoft getting there first is, it's nice to see,

01:24:29 ◼   ► even if this is a product that is not great,

01:24:31 ◼   ► and it should be worrying to Apple

01:24:33 ◼   ► because Apple doesn't have anything to compete with this,

01:24:37 ◼   ► like at all.

01:24:39 ◼   ► And I don't think Apple can say,

01:24:40 ◼   ► "We really believe that the future of doing digital art

01:24:43 ◼   ► "is using a Cintiq,"

01:24:45 ◼   ► because Apple doesn't make those either.

01:24:47 ◼   ► "We really believe the future of art is using a mouse

01:24:49 ◼   ► or doing everything on, you know, they have iPads.

01:24:52 ◼   ► All right, so where's your 28-inch iPad that doesn't,

01:24:54 ◼   ► that you need to plug into the wall?

01:24:56 ◼   ► Like whatever Apple's gonna do,

01:24:57 ◼   ► I'm not saying they have to make Macs touch screen

01:24:58 ◼   ► or anything, but if they care at all,

01:25:00 ◼   ► which maybe they don't, about the creative arts

01:25:03 ◼   ► that involve drawing things, even things from like,

01:25:06 ◼   ► I can imagine CAD or architectural drawings,

01:25:08 ◼   ► not just fine arts and illustration and stuff like that,

01:25:10 ◼   ► they need to be doing something about this.

01:25:15 ◼   ► And I was so excited when they came up with the iPad probe,

01:25:17 ◼   ► it was like, yeah, that's what I was talking about.

01:25:18 ◼   ► You need a really big iPad.

01:25:19 ◼   ► And if you go back to listen to all those shows from years and years ago, I think at

01:25:24 ◼   ► some point I did talk about the whole drafting table thing.

01:25:26 ◼   ► I think we talked about it on this very podcast, but also on Hypercritical.

01:25:30 ◼   ► This is it.

01:25:31 ◼   ► Microsoft made it before Apple did.

01:25:32 ◼   ► Apple did make their iPad bigger, but they took a long time to do it, and they didn't

01:25:35 ◼   ► make it bigger, bigger.

01:25:37 ◼   ► And the idea of an iPad that you can't take off your desk, I remember being laughed at

01:25:40 ◼   ► perhaps on this show, perhaps on other ones, like, "Well, what the hell's the point of

01:25:42 ◼   ► an iPad if you can't move it anywhere?"

01:25:44 ◼   ► This is the point.

01:25:45 ◼   ► This is the thing.

01:25:46 ◼   ► So I am super proud of Microsoft for making this.

01:25:50 ◼   ► I hope they keep at it.

01:25:52 ◼   ► I hope they don't say, "Well, not a lot of people bought these," because I guarantee

01:25:55 ◼   ► you not a lot of people are going to buy this because it's really expensive and it's like

01:25:57 ◼   ► the first generation product.

01:25:59 ◼   ► And truth be told, most people don't do fine arts on their computer, right?

01:26:02 ◼   ► But I think this is the right idea for that class of problems.

01:26:07 ◼   ► And if Apple cares about that class of problems, if Apple cares about keeping those creatives,

01:26:11 ◼   ► I think they totally think they should because they are another branch of sort of the founding

01:26:16 ◼   ► bedrock of Apple's products like creative professionals. They need to start putting

01:26:23 ◼   ► the air pump into those iPads and cranking it up pronto because if they don't, someone

01:26:29 ◼   ► else is going to get there first.

01:26:30 ◼   ► Do you have any idea how much I wanted Reebok pumps as a kid? My goodness, I wanted those

01:26:35 ◼   ► so bad. You know, I don't know. I really, I really admire this. Like you said, Jon, I also think that

01:26:43 ◼   ► this solves a class of problems that I just don't have, which, which, I mean, you kind of said as

01:26:48 ◼   ► well. But I, I have a Slack team that I'm in that's a handful of people that are either current or

01:26:56 ◼   ► former employees of my last employer, the consulting gig. And we were actually, I feel like

01:27:02 ◼   ► we have very cyclical conversations and one of them is, "Oh, are touchscreen devices stupid

01:27:08 ◼   ► or not?" And since most of these people are Windows developers, most of them have touchscreen

01:27:13 ◼   ► Windows laptops, and all of them swear, "Oh my god, Casey, you have no idea, it's so good."

01:27:18 ◼   ► And that very well could be the case. Maybe it is that good. But having used a handful

01:27:23 ◼   ► of touchscreen laptops, admittedly, very, very briefly, I have yet to really have it

01:27:29 ◼   ► click. I've yet to say, "Oh, oh yeah, this does make sense." And maybe given a fair shot,

01:27:37 ◼   ► maybe it would, but I don't feel like I want a touchscreen computer to begin with. And

01:27:42 ◼   ► now you're saying, "Well, why not have a touchscreen iMac?" If I was an artist, heck yes. But as

01:27:49 ◼   ► me? Meh, no thanks. It's a cool thing to look at.

01:27:53 ◼   ► But you don't want a touchscreen laptop. Like when you phrase it that way, like, no, no,

01:27:56 ◼   ► Who wants a touch screen? I'm just saying people find themselves compelled to touch a screen, but no, like those things, the Surface

01:28:02 ◼   ► I would say is not a touch screen laptop. It is a tablet with a keyboard. Apple makes one of those already.

01:28:07 ◼   ► It's called the iPad.

01:28:09 ◼   ► The iPad is not a touch screen laptop. It is a tablet that comes with a keyboard. And you think, what's the difference?

01:28:15 ◼   ► Well, they're both basically the same in use. They're opened at the same angle.

01:28:19 ◼   ► There's a keyboard horizontally and a screen kind of vertically. And yes, you can touch the screen.

01:28:24 ◼   ► But you use them in such different ways like oh well when I'm just using it with my hands

01:28:27 ◼   ► It's just an iPad, but then when I wanted typing

01:28:29 ◼   ► I use the keyboard like I don't know what you want to call that but

01:28:33 ◼   ► Phrasing it as a laptop of the keyboard sounds like oh, I don't want to be poking my finger

01:28:37 ◼   ► It's not comfortable as Apple's point out a million times to poke at a vertical screen

01:28:40 ◼   ► it's better to use the indirect input devices, but I

01:28:43 ◼   ► Think it's looking at it the wrong way

01:28:45 ◼   ► It's taking the old the old thing and saying I'm taking the old thing and modifying it by a touchscreen

01:28:51 ◼   ► When we take the new thing which is a tablet and modify it by adding back a keyboard

01:28:54 ◼   ► Everyone's okay with it and it's basically the same result and this thing the surface studio

01:28:58 ◼   ► I think is it's like this is not a touchscreen laptop

01:29:01 ◼   ► This is also not a touchscreen iMac because iMac doesn't lay down on the table for you

01:29:05 ◼   ► Like there's no way hell you've on touchscreen iMac

01:29:07 ◼   ► You can't draw on it on an iMac the thing doesn't going tilts like 15 degrees and most of them are you know?

01:29:12 ◼   ► It's close to straight up and down the whole time

01:29:14 ◼   ► That is not the surface studio the key feature of the surface studio that says

01:29:17 ◼   ► When you want to do the thing like just like an iPad when you just want to use it like an iPad

01:29:21 ◼   ► You don't need the keyboard and the service series like when you want to do stuff doesn't involve text input at all

01:29:26 ◼   ► like you're drawing a picture and doing architectural drawings or like

01:29:29 ◼   ► Manipulating lines or things in space or whatever and you don't have to use the keyboard lay the whole thing down

01:29:36 ◼   ► I think like in the pictures they have like laying down on top of the keyboard like you don't even have to see the keyboard

01:29:40 ◼   ► It's not there anymore. It's like it's the same way the keyboard goes away

01:29:43 ◼   ► When you use your iPad like I'm not using the keyboard part of my iPad now

01:29:47 ◼   ► I'm just using the iPad part of it and that's in a portable context

01:29:50 ◼   ► This is the just simply the desktop equivalent of that

01:29:52 ◼   ► So I'm not sure what you want to call it and it is weird that

01:29:55 ◼   ► Apple's most likely response to this would have to be an iOS device and not a Mac

01:29:58 ◼   ► Which is strange because as we've talked about in the past Apple's thus far their inability to really get pro level

01:30:06 ◼   ► Applications to flourish on iOS devices whereas they're still kind of doing okay on the Mac

01:30:12 ◼   ► Like that's Apple's challenge to solve, but I'm just saying like writ large, you know, I've always you know

01:30:17 ◼   ► The future of computing direct manipulation of her tasks that require it on a big gigantic awesome screen

01:30:22 ◼   ► The only way that's not gonna happen is if a VR and AR

01:30:26 ◼   ► advanced to the point where this approach never has its chance to be in, you know, there's never has to stay in the Sun because

01:30:32 ◼   ► AR and VR if they get good enough make having a big giant thing that lights up in front of you like archaic

01:30:39 ◼   ► But I feel like there will be a time

01:30:41 ◼   ► before AR and VR get good, where it will be the time of the gigantic touch screens that lay down in front of you.

01:30:47 ◼   ► And when I'm super old and I'm,

01:30:50 ◼   ► you know, doing computing stuff that doesn't involve typing,

01:30:54 ◼   ► I would like to have a big gigantic gorgeous screen lay down in front of me so that I can do stuff on it.

01:30:59 ◼   ► And also have a keyboard for when I do text input and also have speech recognition.

01:31:02 ◼   ► Also have a bunch of things like pens and stuff I could do on it.

01:31:05 ◼   ► I'm ready for the Microsoft Surface Studio

01:31:08 ◼   ► with 20 years in advancement,

01:31:10 ◼   ► probably also not being by Microsoft.

01:31:12 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:31:13 ◼   ► - You know, one thing you mentioned briefly earlier, John,

01:31:16 ◼   ► is like, if they stick with this,

01:31:19 ◼   ► and that's 'cause Microsoft,

01:31:21 ◼   ► you know, they throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall.

01:31:22 ◼   ► They change strategies often,

01:31:25 ◼   ► and they change desktop initiatives often.

01:31:30 ◼   ► This product line, like many other things

01:31:32 ◼   ► Microsoft has tried in recent years,

01:31:34 ◼   ► might not be good enough for them,

01:31:37 ◼   ► It might not sell well enough or it might not get enough software support

01:31:40 ◼   ► It won't sell well enough

01:31:42 ◼   ► But like don't you see this as a like the trend like they've spent all these years

01:31:46 ◼   ► Making a single OS that accepts all these kinds of input. Like that's not like a fluke

01:31:51 ◼   ► That's not like like that's what they've been doing and that's what gives them the option to do things like this

01:31:56 ◼   ► I feel like this like I said, this is the culmination of years and years and years of work

01:32:00 ◼   ► You can't make this on day one

01:32:01 ◼   ► You have to do all the work

01:32:03 ◼   ► to make the unified Windows that does all the kinds of input,

01:32:06 ◼   ► to change the Windows UI to even be usable with touch,

01:32:09 ◼   ► to make the device that has a pen that looks like a laptop

01:32:12 ◼   ► with a touchscreen, you have to do years and years of that

01:32:14 ◼   ► before you can make this thing.

01:32:15 ◼   ► So I feel like it's not a fluke.

01:32:17 ◼   ► Sticking with it merely means maybe they will retreat

01:32:20 ◼   ► from making their own PCs.

01:32:21 ◼   ► Like maybe they will retreat back to the Surface

01:32:24 ◼   ► or retreat back to a tablet or a phone size things,

01:32:27 ◼   ► or get out of that business entirely

01:32:29 ◼   ► and just do Microsoft Azure

01:32:30 ◼   ► and then license Windows to Clone Makers, we don't know.

01:32:32 ◼   ► But I don't think like they're gonna say,

01:32:36 ◼   ► oh, actually touching the screen is not a big deal

01:32:38 ◼   ► because they've just spent so long coming to this point.

01:32:41 ◼   ► Like I feel like they worked hard

01:32:43 ◼   ► to be able to produce a machine like this.

01:32:45 ◼   ► And this one won't sell well enough to be significant,

01:32:47 ◼   ► but I really think they will take a second

01:32:50 ◼   ► and a third crack of it.

01:32:51 ◼   ► And when I think of the best in Microsoft,

01:32:53 ◼   ► I think of, oh, it pains me to say this.

01:32:55 ◼   ► I think of the company that made the Xbox,

01:32:57 ◼   ► which was a gigantic, ugly piece of crap,

01:33:02 ◼   ► But they stuck with it and every new Xbox they've made

01:33:04 ◼   ► has been better than the previous one.

01:33:05 ◼   ► - Hey, that first Xbox was a really good system.

01:33:07 ◼   ► But no, I mean like so--

01:33:08 ◼   ► - Xbox was huge, LOL.

01:33:09 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:33:11 ◼   ► No, I think just because they've built in all this

01:33:15 ◼   ► capability for things like touch and pen input.

01:33:18 ◼   ► If you would've looked at the TV market five years ago,

01:33:22 ◼   ► you would've thought that 3D TVs were just

01:33:25 ◼   ► what everybody wanted and they were taking off like crazy

01:33:28 ◼   ► and that obviously-- - Nobody ever thought that.

01:33:30 ◼   ► Obviously the future of TV was gonna be 3D,

01:33:33 ◼   ► but because if you looked at every TV,

01:33:36 ◼   ► every high-end to even mid-range TV you could buy

01:33:39 ◼   ► in a store, they were all 3D supported TVs.

01:33:43 ◼   ► But in practice, the reason that feature was being put there

01:33:46 ◼   ► was because a stagnant industry was trying to add

01:33:49 ◼   ► more hardware things to make people upgrade

01:33:52 ◼   ► because they weren't upgrading their TVs fast enough.

01:33:54 ◼   ► So Microsoft's been putting in all this crazy capability

01:33:58 ◼   ► and stuff into the service line,

01:33:59 ◼   ► all these different input methods and everything else,

01:34:01 ◼   ► it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's using them

01:34:06 ◼   ► or that this will be how people will use

01:34:09 ◼   ► their Microsoft computers in the future.

01:34:11 ◼   ► It might turn out that way,

01:34:12 ◼   ► but just because the capability's there,

01:34:14 ◼   ► just because Microsoft is building all this,

01:34:17 ◼   ► supporting everything, is building this hardware,

01:34:19 ◼   ► that doesn't mean that PC users

01:34:22 ◼   ► are going to meaningfully adopt this.

01:34:24 ◼   ► Again, they might, but that's not a foregone conclusion.

01:34:27 ◼   ► No, it's not PC users that are buying this,

01:34:30 ◼   ► it is creative professionals specifically,

01:34:32 ◼   ► which is a tiny market, and out of those people,

01:34:34 ◼   ► they're not gonna buy it because this is like,

01:34:36 ◼   ► this is like you trying to enter a market

01:34:38 ◼   ► that another company owns, or like,

01:34:41 ◼   ► there's already a way to set way to do things,

01:34:43 ◼   ► and you have a totally different way to do it.

01:34:45 ◼   ► Some people are gonna try it,

01:34:46 ◼   ► but professionals are the least likely

01:34:48 ◼   ► to change their ways, even if they're already using

01:34:50 ◼   ► a Microsoft Windows PC running Photoshop with a tablet,

01:34:55 ◼   ► whether it's a Cintiq or just a plain old tablet,

01:34:57 ◼   ► even those people aren't gonna buy the Surface Studio

01:35:01 ◼   ► except for on a Lark or to be curious about it.

01:35:03 ◼   ► Because they're set in their ways,

01:35:04 ◼   ► using their Microsoft Windows PC,

01:35:06 ◼   ► running Adobe Photoshop with a tablet.

01:35:08 ◼   ► And they've been doing that their whole career

01:35:10 ◼   ► and that's what they like,

01:35:10 ◼   ► and maybe they're curious about this,

01:35:11 ◼   ► but it's not a big deal.

01:35:12 ◼   ► But the thing about the future is,

01:35:15 ◼   ► if they stick with it and keep selling this,

01:35:18 ◼   ► even though they're not making money on it,

01:35:19 ◼   ► because not enough people buy it,

01:35:22 ◼   ► eventually I think the market will come around to it,

01:35:24 ◼   ► because people who start out new might be interested in it

01:35:27 ◼   ► and try it out and they never got used to using

01:35:29 ◼   ► a non-light-up tablet, or the people who use Cintiqs

01:35:32 ◼   ► might view this as a better Cintiq until they try it

01:35:35 ◼   ► and realize actually the Cintiq is a little bit better

01:35:36 ◼   ► because it's got all these buttons on it they're used to

01:35:38 ◼   ► and so on and so forth. (laughing)

01:35:39 ◼   ► It's gonna be a long road.

01:35:40 ◼   ► And the other X factor is that people don't like Windows.

01:35:44 ◼   ► Or Marco doesn't like it anyway.

01:35:45 ◼   ► Some people don't like Windows.

01:35:46 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:35:47 ◼   ► Believe it or not.

01:35:47 ◼   ► And so those people who don't like Windows

01:35:50 ◼   ► are gonna be like, "Well, this looks great and all,

01:35:52 ◼   ► "but I don't like Windows, so I'm not gonna do that."

01:35:54 ◼   ► all the professionals who are using Macs.

01:35:56 ◼   ► For example, I use Photoshop on a Mac

01:35:58 ◼   ► with the Wacom tablet or whatever.

01:35:59 ◼   ► Like, even just talking to,

01:36:02 ◼   ► seeing the tweets from Dr. Wave on Twitter,

01:36:05 ◼   ► like, "Isn't this perfect for Pixar?"

01:36:06 ◼   ► It's like, well, actually at Pixar,

01:36:07 ◼   ► people who have these giant tablets to draw on

01:36:10 ◼   ► to do their 3D work, they're on like articulated arms.

01:36:13 ◼   ► And so it's a nonstarter for this thing

01:36:14 ◼   ► to just be on a simple hinge that goes on a desk.

01:36:16 ◼   ► Like, this is just one product,

01:36:18 ◼   ► and that it's not as flexible

01:36:19 ◼   ► as the products they're already using,

01:36:21 ◼   ► and they already have a system that works.

01:36:23 ◼   ► And so this may be novel and interesting,

01:36:24 ◼   ► but it doesn't work for Pixar, right?

01:36:27 ◼   ► But this is early days.

01:36:29 ◼   ► This is a single product from a single company

01:36:31 ◼   ► with lots of caveats that are associated with it.

01:36:34 ◼   ► So I'm not gonna say that this is going to make Microsoft

01:36:38 ◼   ► the king of the creative professionals,

01:36:40 ◼   ► but they do have a head start on people.

01:36:41 ◼   ► And if they keep iterating on this product

01:36:43 ◼   ► and this idea and this concept for years and years and years

01:36:46 ◼   ► and keep going with this whole OS strategy with touch

01:36:49 ◼   ► and maybe make Windows a little bit nicer in the process.

01:36:52 ◼   ► and no one else does anything, because who else is there?

01:36:55 ◼   ► It's not like Linux is gonna take over

01:36:56 ◼   ► the credit professional market, right?

01:36:58 ◼   ► It's them and Apple, basically, at this point.

01:37:00 ◼   ► And if Apple doesn't move, it gives Microsoft time

01:37:04 ◼   ► to try and fail and try and fail and try and fail

01:37:06 ◼   ► over and over again, and eventually,

01:37:07 ◼   ► they'll get pretty decent, and they'll basically win

01:37:09 ◼   ► by default if Apple never makes an iPad bigger

01:37:12 ◼   ► than 12.5 inches and never makes a Mac like this.

01:37:15 ◼   ► Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:37:18 ◼   ► Betterment, Audible, and Squarespace,

01:37:20 ◼   ► and we will see you next week.

01:37:22 ◼   ► Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:37:29 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:37:35 ◼   ► John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:37:40 ◼   ► 'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:37:45 ◼   ► And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:37:50 ◼   ► And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:37:55 ◼   ► @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:37:59 ◼   ► So that's Kasey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:38:04 ◼   ► N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N S-I-R-A-C

01:38:09 ◼   ► U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:38:11 ◼   ► It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:38:14 ◼   ► They didn't mean to, accidental (accidental)

01:38:19 ◼   ► ♪ Can't protect my castle so long ♪

01:38:23 ◼   ► - You wanna talk about Sal Segoin?

01:38:27 ◼   ► I'm sorry if that's not how you pronounce it.

01:38:28 ◼   ► I haven't had time to research.

01:38:31 ◼   ► This news broke a couple hours before we started recording

01:38:34 ◼   ► that Sal Segoin, he was the product manager,

01:38:39 ◼   ► the head of Mac OS automation technologies.

01:38:45 ◼   ► So that would include things like AppleScript,

01:38:47 ◼   ► Apple Events automator, and apparently he has been let go of Apple, his position has

01:38:53 ◼   ► been eliminated. So basically it sure seems like Apple is no longer going to have a head

01:39:00 ◼   ► of automation of apps on Mac OS. And a lot of long-time Mac users are taking this news

01:39:07 ◼   ► to be possibly a pretty bad sign. Do we want to talk about this? I mean we haven't really

01:39:10 ◼   ► had time to look into it much.

01:39:11 ◼   ► I looked into it, and I know Sal from my reputation and by all the WWDC sessions I've seen with

01:39:18 ◼   ► him, and I've met him in person a couple times, although I'm sure he doesn't remember me.

01:39:21 ◼   ► But—

01:39:22 ◼   ► Yeah, I'm pretty sure I have, too.

01:39:23 ◼   ► He looks very familiar.

01:39:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:39:25 ◼   ► He's one of those people you recognize.

01:39:26 ◼   ► There are a couple aspects to this.

01:39:28 ◼   ► One is that Sal is just a very nice, gregarious, charismatic, smart person.

01:39:34 ◼   ► He's got charisma.

01:39:36 ◼   ► You see him, and especially if you're a nerd and you're attracted to smart people, right,

01:39:40 ◼   ► who are interesting and dynamic and have opinions and can express them well, that's Sal.

01:39:46 ◼   ► So people who are long-time Apple fans and who have known him professionally or by reputation

01:39:53 ◼   ► or by his products or presentations are sad to see somebody that everybody liked not be

01:39:59 ◼   ► at the company anymore.

01:40:01 ◼   ► So that's an unquestionable aspect of this entire thing, because if he was a jerk that

01:40:06 ◼   ► everybody hated, this would not be his biggest story.

01:40:08 ◼   ► And then the other part is what you just said about automation.

01:40:13 ◼   ► Automation on the Mac, which people just shorten to say like, "Oh, Sal, he's that AppleScript

01:40:16 ◼   ► guy."

01:40:17 ◼   ► That's a reasonable summary of him if you want to go there, but there's much more to

01:40:20 ◼   ► it than that.

01:40:21 ◼   ► You can read all the stuff on his website.

01:40:22 ◼   ► We'll put a link in the show notes.

01:40:23 ◼   ► It's not just AppleScript, there's also shell scripting and Apple events that AppleScripting

01:40:27 ◼   ► is based on.

01:40:28 ◼   ► You can do it in all sorts of different languages.

01:40:30 ◼   ► And there's the tooling involved with that.

01:40:33 ◼   ► Even as recently as like last year or the year before that, they finally added like

01:40:36 ◼   ► library/framework support for AppleScript so you could write AppleScript

01:40:39 ◼   ► libraries and use them. AppleScript was kind of stuck in amber for a long

01:40:43 ◼   ► time, not really getting any better but not really getting any worse, but was

01:40:46 ◼   ► still an essential part of so many professionals' workflows, like that they

01:40:49 ◼   ► would use AppleScript to automate the things that they did and it was

01:40:54 ◼   ► important to them for their professional applications they were using to have

01:40:56 ◼   ► AppleScript support to be able to do this. Automator in the OS X

01:41:00 ◼   ► age was this other thing like let regular people design sets of actions without having

01:41:08 ◼   ► to be programmers, you know, so automated would let you string together do this and

01:41:12 ◼   ► do that and do that without having to like learn language, even a language is as simple

01:41:16 ◼   ► as AppleScript.

01:41:18 ◼   ► And his position being eliminated, I don't know enough about the internal rearrangement,

01:41:24 ◼   ► but it could just be that like the division is merged with some other division.

01:41:30 ◼   ► was another person that Apple likes better who's heading that division, so he's out and

01:41:33 ◼   ► that person is in. But it could also be that, and this would totally fit with Apple's recent moves,

01:41:38 ◼   ► as in neglecting the Mac Pro and having difficulty making Pro apps and

01:41:43 ◼   ► canning Aperture and all that other stuff, that they see

01:41:46 ◼   ► users creating automations. In anything even approaching a program-like environment,

01:41:54 ◼   ► whether it be HyperCard, rest in peace, or Automator, or writing Apple scripts and scales,

01:42:00 ◼   ► that is not the future of computing. It's too complicated, regular people don't want to do it,

01:42:05 ◼   ► the professionals who want to do it are really causing more problems for themselves than they're

01:42:08 ◼   ► solving and really they should just allow us to define the workflows by hard coding them into our

01:42:11 ◼   ► applications or just buy another application that does what they want and stop trying to program it

01:42:15 ◼   ► or whatever. Therefore having an automation division and a product manager of automation,

01:42:20 ◼   ► that's not the future of the company, that's not the future of the Mac, we don't need that anymore,

01:42:23 ◼   ► it's a waste of time and resources and it's holding back our other approaches. That's like

01:42:27 ◼   ► the doomsday scenario. The most pessimistic scenario is that automation is being de-emphasized

01:42:32 ◼   ► in the same way that writing batch scripts would be de-emphasized, or having to write programs

01:42:37 ◼   ► yourself would be de-emphasized, right? And it makes some sense. The march of progress has been