194: Dark Night of the Soul


00:00:00   We decided to schedule this week's show directly against game seven, right? Of the baseball series?

00:00:08   That's World Series, but only in the USA?

00:00:10   Uh, Canada 2.

00:00:12   That doesn't really count. That's not the world.

00:00:14   They should call it the North American minus Mexico series.

00:00:17   [laughs]

00:00:19   I guess you could go that way. I am currently, probably to my own peril, attempting to log into my Slingbox from my Mac

00:00:27   and see if I can turn the game on and provide live updates for you, Marco, since I know

00:00:31   you are deeply concerned about the score of game seven.

00:00:34   You should. So, this, just the basics, obviously this means that each of the teams won three

00:00:40   games, so they're tied now that they have a tiebreaker game, is that...

00:00:43   That is correct.

00:00:44   And other than that, is there anything special about how this game works? Are there any rule

00:00:47   changes, like it ends after a certain score, or is it just a regular game?

00:00:51   I don't think there is any difference, no.

00:00:52   Okay.

00:00:53   There's some rule, I forget what's what, but one league can do, what is it, a pinch hitter,

00:01:00   designated hitter, something, oh my god, designated hitter, something like that, and one league

00:01:05   doesn't allow that, I believe.

00:01:08   And I never understand the rules behind when that's permitted and when that isn't.

00:01:12   Now, I've heard people tell me that I should try to understand the infield fly rule.

00:01:17   Is that the difference between the American League and the American League?

00:01:21   National League, and no, it is not.

00:01:23   I don't believe, anyway.

00:01:26   But yeah, so the idea is when the, whatever league allows for this thing is considered

00:01:31   to be at home, this hitter thing, then they do the hitter thing.

00:01:36   I think it's a pinch hitter, is that right?

00:01:37   Why am I explaining this?

00:01:38   I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

00:01:40   So the two USA baseball leagues can't even agree on the rules?

00:01:44   Is this like a Republican-Democrat kind of thing?

00:01:47   Like what?

00:01:48   It's different islands in the Galapagos.

00:01:49   They evolved separately.

00:01:51   We should probably cut all of that because that was painful to talk about, let alone

00:01:55   listen to.

00:01:56   Yeah, that's probably not going in.

00:01:59   The Cleveland Indians and the Chicago Cubs are playing in the final game of the World

00:02:03   Series as we speak.

00:02:05   And as we are recording, it is top of the fourth, it's tied one to one, and I don't

00:02:10   really have a preference who wins.

00:02:12   I guess the Cubs, since they haven't won in forever, but whatever.

00:02:18   Are they really still?

00:02:19   Oh my God.

00:02:21   really still called the Indians and they really still have that logo in 2016?

00:02:24   That's correct. That is rough. Wow. So I'm gonna I was gonna give live updates but

00:02:31   given that having SlingPlayer running on my Mac is causing my iMac's fans to go

00:02:36   at full tilt I'm just gonna go ahead and disconnect and turn that off. You know

00:02:39   what would have solved that problem? Oh here we go. Here we go. Tell me Marco what would solve that problem.

00:02:45   You know Apple still barely does make one computer where the difference in fan audible noise levels

00:02:53   between full load and idle is not distinguishable by the human ear most of the time in most rooms.

00:02:59   Oh the MacBook Adorable that doesn't have a fan? That one?

00:03:03   Hmm. Alright, two.

00:03:04   That doesn't count. That doesn't count because that's always at full load.

00:03:08   I'll just use I'll use the computer that's more modern. I'll go get my iPad mini. Hold on.

00:03:13   Oh, goodness, sorry, before Marco and I kill each other, we should probably start with

00:03:19   some follow-up.

00:03:20   And there was an interesting thing posted over the last few days.

00:03:24   As one would expect, the iFixit folks have gotten their hands on a MacBook escape.

00:03:31   And it's funny that I call it a MacBook escape, which I believe I stole from Marco, because

00:03:35   on that page it says, and I'm quoting, "Read on for our teardown of the MacBook Pro late

00:03:42   2016, parenthesis, "Escape Edition," parenthesis. My question to you two is, is this simultaneous

00:03:49   invention, or did we get an uncredited citation there? Like, is this really our invention that

00:03:54   they're just not citing us as the source? Well, first of all, it's not our invention,

00:03:59   I'm pretty sure. It is the invention of whoever in the chat room suggested that. Just because

00:04:04   we picked out of the chat room the name that we liked and then repeated it on the show does not

00:04:08   mean that we invented that name. Sure it does. It's appropriate. Fair and square. No, no. That's how this works, right?

00:04:13   Whoever suggested it in the chat room actually coined the term, and we were merely adopting it for a

00:04:19   discussion, and I'm assuming it's simultaneous, but I just wanted to clear that. Marco was the one who

00:04:23   pulled it out of the chat room, and I'm assuming Marco pulled it out of the chat room and didn't

00:04:26   invent it himself, because on the show he was reading things out of the chat room. Yeah, it was

00:04:30   before last week's show, the people in the chat were discussing various names, and they were calling

00:04:35   it like escape book pro and f in book pro and a few other variations. I'm not entirely

00:04:41   sure who said, if anyone actually said MacBook escape as the official name, but well I've

00:04:48   been corrected though on Twitter and other places. Apparently the official name for this

00:04:54   computer is MacBook Pro in parentheses 13 inch late 2016 two Thunderbolt 3 ports end

00:05:02   in parentheses.

00:05:03   So from now on, I have to call it that.

00:05:06   MacBook Pro 13, late 2016, two Thunderbolt 3 ports,

00:05:09   not MacBook Escape, because the former

00:05:12   is a way better name, apparently.

00:05:15   - I'm disappointed that the name they hinted at

00:05:16   in the presentation wasn't the actual name,

00:05:18   because they said like, with function keys,

00:05:21   so it was like MacBook Pro, parentheses,

00:05:23   with function keys, but that is not obviously

00:05:25   the official name, apparently the official name

00:05:27   is that giant mouthful.

00:05:28   - Is that even that much better, though?

00:05:30   Like would that have been, like,

00:05:32   this is still not a name that anybody will know.

00:05:35   - The good thing about the parentheses with function keys

00:05:37   is you could apply it to like any Mac model

00:05:38   that comes with a keyboard with function keys on it now.

00:05:40   You could say like, you know,

00:05:41   Apple extended keyboard with function keys.

00:05:44   - Exactly.

00:05:45   Well, and like the whole reason,

00:05:46   like the reason we gave this cute name

00:05:47   and everyone said I should stop naming things

00:05:50   because originally I was one of the people,

00:05:52   I don't even know if I was the first,

00:05:53   but I was a popularizer of the name MacBook One

00:05:57   for the one port 12 inch MacBook when that came out.

00:05:59   'Cause I had a similar problem

00:06:00   where they released this brand new computer

00:06:02   that is radically different from everything else they make,

00:06:04   and they just called it MacBook.

00:06:06   And there was already a computer named MacBook,

00:06:08   not even that long ago, and lots of people still have them.

00:06:11   And so it was a vague name, an ambiguous name,

00:06:16   and everyone was going through all these contortions

00:06:19   in press articles to say the new MacBook,

00:06:22   the 12-inch Retina MacBook,

00:06:24   the MacBook with one USB port, whatever.

00:06:26   Everyone was going through these contortions

00:06:28   trying to unambiguously state which computer

00:06:31   they were talking about because Apple's names

00:06:32   aren't good enough, like they're not precise enough.

00:06:36   And this is one of those cases too.

00:06:37   And by the way, I do regret not calling it the MacBook 2

00:06:41   because in so many ways--

00:06:42   - That's true, I didn't even think about that.

00:06:44   - I had a few people tell me that.

00:06:45   - That's just adding confusion though

00:06:47   because now it sounds like it's the sequel or something

00:06:49   and it is a pro.

00:06:52   - Yeah, well, it's an Air.

00:06:54   But I mean really, let's be honest,

00:06:56   it's a MacBook Air with a retina screen.

00:06:58   Which again, I wanted that,

00:07:00   and I said it's gonna be amazing,

00:07:01   and they're gonna sell a ton of them,

00:07:03   and I stand by that.

00:07:05   The earlier reviews say it is pretty good.

00:07:07   It's not as good as I would like it to be in some ways,

00:07:09   but overall pretty good.

00:07:11   I think it's probably going to be very successful

00:07:15   if anybody can justify the price hike for it.

00:07:18   That's a big if, but if they can do it, that'll be fine.

00:07:21   But this is another one of those computers

00:07:23   where look at the contortions of how people

00:07:26   trying to unambiguously refer to this computer in their various reviews and press articles

00:07:30   and blog posts and tweets, and there is no good short name for it that unambiguously

00:07:35   says what it refers to. So I stand by my choice to call it the MacBook Escape because it is

00:07:40   short and fairly unique. I don't think anyone could ever think that meant any other computer,

00:07:46   and they might not necessarily know it means this one, but I think enough geeks know, enough

00:07:51   of our audience knows, enough of my audience on Twitter and stuff knows, that I can say

00:07:55   say MacBook One and MacBook Escape,

00:07:58   and the people who are listening,

00:08:01   almost all of them will know what I mean by that,

00:08:03   as opposed to saying 13-inch MacBook Pro,

00:08:06   which now could mean three very different computers,

00:08:09   all of which are still for sale.

00:08:11   - Just wait until next year when they add the Touch Bar

00:08:13   to the MacBook Escape,

00:08:15   but it still has two ports instead of four,

00:08:17   then what the hell you gonna call it?

00:08:17   It's not the MacBook Escape anymore.

00:08:20   MacBook Escape with Touch Bar.

00:08:22   - That's MacBook Two.

00:08:23   So I have an important question for you, Marco.

00:08:25   Are you sticking with the MacBook One name

00:08:28   or are you going to adopt the CGP Grey

00:08:31   MacBook Adorable name?

00:08:33   - If I'm going to call it a name beyond its correct name

00:08:36   of MacBook or 12 inch MacBook,

00:08:39   then I'm going to call it MacBook One.

00:08:42   It's been around longer, it's probably,

00:08:44   I think it's more recognizable and I think it's,

00:08:47   honestly I think it's a better name.

00:08:49   Sorry Grey, but.

00:08:50   - It's less of a value judgment too.

00:08:51   - Yeah, exactly.

00:08:53   But, I mean, you know, realistically speaking,

00:08:56   it has now been, you know, that computer came out

00:08:58   about what, a year and a half ago, almost two years ago.

00:09:00   It has now been long enough that I will fairly soon

00:09:04   not need to call it the MacBook One anymore.

00:09:07   That time might even be now.

00:09:08   'Cause you only need these pet names

00:09:11   when Apple's regular names are still ambiguous

00:09:15   and confusing in people's minds.

00:09:17   When the MacBook One first came out

00:09:19   and they just called it MacBook, again,

00:09:21   Lots of people still had memories of the regular MacBook

00:09:24   and what was called that not that long ago.

00:09:27   And everyone wanted to talk about this new computer

00:09:28   and there was no good way to unambiguously do that.

00:09:31   But now, if you say the MacBook now,

00:09:36   that still honestly does kind of refer to the whole family

00:09:38   to some degree and people might be confused

00:09:40   a little bit by that, but if you just say MacBook

00:09:42   or if you just say 12 inch MacBook,

00:09:44   I think you're okay for the most part now.

00:09:47   So I probably won't need to use the name MacBook One

00:09:50   much anymore. I might use it anyway because I like it, but I don't think I really need

00:09:54   to use it much anymore. Whereas referring to the MacBook Pro 13-inch late 2016 200 volt

00:10:00   3 ports is still in need of a nice short unambiguous name.

00:10:06   Yeah, that's terrible. Alright, moving on. Mark King writes in to tell us that when John

00:10:11   speaks of millions of millennials typing on a screen, that actually includes Marco and

00:10:16   strictly speaking, and Mark has cited something on Wikipedia, which means it must be true,

00:10:23   and millennials apparently start with those born in 1982, and I speak for Mark Owen saying

00:10:28   both of us were born in 1982, so strictly speaking we are old millennials.

00:10:33   - See, that's BS though.

00:10:34   Like the genera-- - I don't buy this at all.

00:10:37   - I feel like generations don't just flip on a dime on December 31st at New Year's.

00:10:42   No, after you two were born, that was it. They closed the door.

00:10:46   Well, I was going to say, this is like the upstate of time or generations, right?

00:10:51   It's always the people younger than you that are the millennials.

00:10:55   And so, I actually do agree with Marco that I don't feel like I qualify as this entitled, self-obsessed generation.

00:11:01   Says the guy on his podcast. But I don't think it's too far after we were born.

00:11:07   I would probably have put it at like 1990-ish, but whatever.

00:11:11   TV boomers are self-obsessed. The Millennials aren't self-obsessed. The Millennials are coddled and

00:11:17   overconfident and have never had to try for anything. Those are the stereotypes and Gen X are

00:11:22   disaffected and cynical and terrible.

00:11:24   Yeah, I guess that's fair. Well anyway, so yeah, apparently Marco and I are strictly speaking Millennials, which is a

00:11:30   interesting and perhaps sad realization for the two of us.

00:11:33   Well, the problem is there has whatever name for the generations that are younger than Millennials, like there's competition for what those names

00:11:39   could be called, please don't send us the 8 million names you've heard, we can look

00:11:43   them up too. But anyway, one of them hasn't won yet. So once a name wins, it'll be more

00:11:48   convenient when we want to make fun of the young'uns to use that name. I use millennials

00:11:52   because to me they are the young'uns, but this person is right, you too are millennials

00:11:56   as well.

00:11:57   - See, I feel like when, you know, generations are kind of like, they're kind of like a bell

00:12:01   curve shape, like as the time goes on, like it defines a certain era, but as you get close

00:12:06   to the edges and the boundaries of the eras, they become a lot less clearly defined. So

00:12:12   if you refer, and honestly I think referring to generations like this is stupid, but if

00:12:16   you're going to refer to them, I feel like if you say millennial, you're referring

00:12:19   to kind of like the hump, the peak of that wave. And so by calling us any of the generations

00:12:26   when we are literally the boundary year between two twenty year long generations, I feel like

00:12:34   it doesn't really say anything.

00:12:35   Like, are we really that different from the people

00:12:37   who are literally six months older than us?

00:12:39   Like, not really, you know?

00:12:40   So it's, when you get towards the edges,

00:12:42   it doesn't really mean much.

00:12:43   But referring to these generations at all is kinda dumb

00:12:45   and is only used for people to like yell about

00:12:48   how weird the kids are these days.

00:12:50   - That's exactly how we're using it though.

00:12:52   - Yeah, that is the point.

00:12:54   All right, William Rainsh wrote in and pointed out to us,

00:12:57   I forget exactly the context,

00:12:59   but I think maybe it was Marco was saying,

00:13:02   "Oh, I don't need a super fast GPU," or somebody was saying something along those lines.

00:13:07   >> That's what it was.

00:13:08   >> And William writes in to say, "Well, you may not think you need a super fast GPU because

00:13:13   you're maybe not playing games or anything like that, but is that the GPU used by, say,

00:13:18   image editing apps to do some of the calculations required in order to mess with your pictures

00:13:24   taken on your camera? That's all GPU-based, is it not?"

00:13:28   some of it is. And that's not to say that it doesn't matter, but much of it is still

00:13:35   very much CPU bound. And the things that are generally where I spend most of my time waiting

00:13:40   for the CPU are not the things that GPUs are usually helping with. You know, I mean I still,

00:13:45   I have my iMac with the fancy GPU, I have my 15 inch MacBook Pro without the fancy GPU,

00:13:52   and they do things at roughly the same speed, like in Lightroom with the same kind of files.

00:13:57   Like it's not, like the iMac should be,

00:13:59   if GPU is really helping the things that I'm waiting on,

00:14:02   the iMac should be way faster than the MacBook Pro,

00:14:04   but it's not, it's similar speeds.

00:14:06   So, and I can look and I can see and I stat menus

00:14:10   that all the CPU cores are being pegged

00:14:12   during these operations I'm waiting for.

00:14:13   So really it's, you know, it might help

00:14:16   many operations and stuff,

00:14:18   but the things I'm complaining about,

00:14:21   it doesn't really help.

00:14:22   And again, it's nice to have, but you know,

00:14:25   not necessarily at certain costs and in certain roles.

00:14:28   So my argument last week was that I wish they had the GPU,

00:14:33   basically the no GPU option in the 15 inch still.

00:14:36   There appear to be good reasons why they don't anymore,

00:14:39   like related to Intel's integrated GPU

00:14:41   being not as good anymore in those quad core configs,

00:14:44   whatever, I don't know, I don't know the details of that,

00:14:46   but something like that.

00:14:47   But anyway, I regret that they don't have the option

00:14:51   of no discrete GPU anymore, but oh well,

00:14:54   what are you gonna do?

00:14:56   That's kind of my attitude about MacBook Pro in general,

00:14:58   is oh well, what are you gonna do?

00:15:00   Because there's so much about it that's a little bit

00:15:03   weird or off or not quite for me.

00:15:06   - We'll get to it.

00:15:06   - Yeah, we will.

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00:17:02   (upbeat music)

00:17:05   - All right, moving on.

00:17:08   A few people have written in to say

00:17:09   that there are forthcoming external GPU boxes

00:17:14   for new MacBook Pros.

00:17:15   So BizonTech, I apologize if I'm pronouncing that wrong, has a BizonBox 3 external graphics

00:17:23   card for Mac.

00:17:24   Turn your Mac into a powerful workstation, up to 10x boost in games and professional

00:17:27   apps.

00:17:29   And so this looks like almost a mini tower-sized box.

00:17:32   It looks quite large, I'm sure it's actually not, that you can sit adjacent to your MacBook

00:17:37   Pro and connect via presumably Thunderbolt 3 and put any number of different GPUs in

00:17:44   it.

00:17:45   And $2,700 on a box that has a graphics card in it, and that graphics card only apparently

00:17:56   has Windows support, but nonetheless, you could spend basically half a MacBook Pro again

00:18:03   getting an external graphics card.

00:18:04   So Jon, is this your solution to an excellent Mac-based gaming platform?

00:18:09   There have been a bunch of external GPU options ever since the advent of Thunderbolt.

00:18:17   And there are two main problems.

00:18:19   One is probably not a problem anymore, but used to be back in the early days of Thunderbolt.

00:18:23   And that is that although Thunderbolt basically gives you the ability to have sort of, you

00:18:27   know, PCI bus that extends outside your computer, the original Thunderbolt did not have as many

00:18:33   lanes as top-end graphic cards took when you plugged them into like a gaming PC or something.

00:18:39   And that only mattered if you were going to actually use all that bandwidth between the

00:18:42   card and the CPU and everything, and you could argue that it wouldn't make a difference and

00:18:45   you can't measure or whatever, but back in the day, the bandwidth was insufficient.

00:18:48   I'm assuming with Thunderbolt 3, that it's either close enough not to matter anymore

00:18:52   or to surpass it and it's not a problem anymore.

00:18:54   But the real problem with external GPU solutions, for me personally, why I'm not interested

00:18:59   in them, is because I have no faith that Apple supports them in any way, shape, or form.

00:19:06   And it's not as if I need Apple to make the box.

00:19:08   I just need Apple to say, "Oh yeah, this is a thing you can do with your Mac."

00:19:12   I do not doubt that they can get this to work, and I do not doubt that Apple has built support

00:19:17   for external CPUs into the operating system that's letting them do this.

00:19:21   What I doubt is, is this going to be a supported configuration for me?

00:19:25   Is some OS update going to get rid of it?

00:19:27   Is it, like, especially if you're going to spend, you know, $800 for a really fancy GPU,

00:19:32   is it a thing that's going to be useful for its purpose?

00:19:35   I don't want to buy it and then two years later like I can't use it anymore because

00:19:38   The drivers aren't supported or there's some bug or some new kernel change it out

00:19:42   But like I need Apple's blessing essentially for me to feel safe to pursue this because you know

00:19:46   Otherwise why don't I just make a gaming PC like at least then I know that's unsupported by everybody and it's just my own

00:19:51   My own challenge to battle and get to work or you know, I get driver updates from the the video card company

00:19:57   So I'm personally very wary of solutions like this because I say as I sit in front of my eight-year-old computer

00:20:04   because I like to, you know, use things for a long time and I really do want Apple to

00:20:08   bless them in some way. Blessing for Apple doesn't mean it's gonna be supported forever, obviously,

00:20:13   but at least I'll know that I'm not more on the fringes. For other people who have, you know,

00:20:18   less aversion to risk or are just interested in trying something cool,

00:20:21   this definitely looks interesting and I would probably do this if I was more of a hobbyist hardware tinkerer, but

00:20:27   right now I'm not interested in external GPUs until Apple gives me the nod about them.

00:20:32   Honestly, if I was more of a hobbyist hardware tinkerer,

00:20:35   I'd just build a Hackintosh.

00:20:36   Or, as you said, just build a gaming PC.

00:20:39   Like that's, 'cause you do most of your gaming

00:20:41   in Windows anyway, right?

00:20:42   - Well yeah, so this is the, the other angle is like,

00:20:47   the thing that's cool about it is not,

00:20:48   hey, I get to have a cool GPU.

00:20:50   The cool thing is you get to have a laptop

00:20:52   that works pretty well that you can also sit down,

00:20:54   plop it down on your desk and suddenly

00:20:56   becomes way more powerful.

00:20:57   Like, so it's the whole hybrid,

00:20:58   it's kind of like the old Thunderbolt display

00:21:00   with the laptop, like, you could just buy

00:21:02   two separate machines but it's kind of neat to have one machine with all your stuff on

00:21:05   it that suddenly gets amazing new capabilities when you sit down at your desk and connect

00:21:08   one little skinny wire.

00:21:10   That is the, for me, the novel interesting hardware hacker angle.

00:21:13   Not just the fact that you can have a good GPU because you're right, you just get a game

00:21:16   -- if you just want a good GPU, get a gaming PC and there you go.

00:21:20   It's the, you know, the novelty of having external powerful things enhancing the power

00:21:25   of your laptops and tons of PC laptops do this as well.

00:21:27   This is not a unique thing to Apple or anything like that.

00:21:30   is just, you know, Apple as far as I'm aware

00:21:33   has never even acknowledged this is a thing,

00:21:34   which is really weird considering they have to provide

00:21:36   some support for it for it to work at all.

00:21:39   - Yeah, I mean, the story that we get from like

00:21:42   people like ATP Tipster and other various sources,

00:21:44   it really does sound like Apple really did do

00:21:48   like all of the work necessary to make their own 5K display.

00:21:52   And at some point, they were probably planning on it

00:21:54   to be a product.

00:21:55   And so they put in all this work to make Sierra support

00:22:00   this kind of display over this kind of cable,

00:22:02   make it support external GPUs over that kind of cable,

00:22:05   and everything else, and then instead now,

00:22:08   they basically give it all to LG,

00:22:10   who was probably making the panel for it to begin with.

00:22:13   LG ships it as their monitor,

00:22:15   and Apple tells Neil A. Patel secondhand on Twitter

00:22:19   that they're out of the display business.

00:22:21   - That's a future follow-up item, and we will discuss it.

00:22:25   - This whole, it's a weird story.

00:22:26   There has to be something more to it than that,

00:22:28   that that is a weird story.

00:22:30   I will just say here, in case we don't get to it again,

00:22:32   that I think the idea of giving,

00:22:35   of handing this over to LG and telling people,

00:22:37   oh, if you want what was basically the Apple 5K display,

00:22:40   you have to now buy it from LG, that's not as good.

00:22:43   That's not a very good solution,

00:22:44   because then that means that we have to order it from LG,

00:22:48   we have to get LG's warranty on it,

00:22:52   we have to get LG's support if anything goes wrong,

00:22:55   And all of the, and of course, you know,

00:22:57   LG's exterior casing, which is kind of hideous,

00:23:00   and all of that is worse than if we would've

00:23:03   just bought it from Apple.

00:23:05   So it's not a great situation.

00:23:08   Like one person on Twitter pointed out,

00:23:09   I'm sorry, I forgot who it was,

00:23:11   like up until now, or up until when Apple stopped selling

00:23:15   the Thunderbolt display a few months ago,

00:23:17   if you bought a Mac and the Thunderbolt display

00:23:20   and AppleCare for the Mac,

00:23:21   the AppleCare also covered the display.

00:23:24   So you had your monitor covered for three years,

00:23:27   just like you had your computer,

00:23:28   which three years warranty on pro monitors

00:23:30   is usually not what they go for.

00:23:31   I think usually you're one year for most things like that.

00:23:34   So again, it's just like,

00:23:35   and if anything ever went wrong with it,

00:23:37   as John, you know, you could bring it to an Apple store

00:23:39   and you could have them deal with it

00:23:41   or you could ship it to Apple.

00:23:42   And now, like when it's sold by somebody else,

00:23:44   especially somebody like LG

00:23:45   who has like pretty miserable service in most things,

00:23:48   then you have to call God knows who,

00:23:52   ship it God knows where, pay God knows what,

00:23:55   and wait God knows how long to get it back.

00:23:57   And it's not nearly as nice as if Apple would

00:24:00   have just sold this themselves.

00:24:01   And so I do kind of,

00:24:04   I am a little scared for Apple's future dedication

00:24:10   to desktops, if only because that seems like

00:24:12   a really weird move if you care about things

00:24:15   like the Mac Pro at all.

00:24:17   - We don't know how long LG's warranty is,

00:24:18   probably know they have a 10 year warranty.

00:24:21   - Fair enough.

00:24:22   No, but what—I don't entirely get what makes this new display so unique, because

00:24:27   when I was looking at getting potentially a monitor for work before I got that 4K that I'm

00:24:34   using now, I was looking at the Dell 5K, and that works with, like, my existing MacBook Pro—that's

00:24:41   a few months old now—on one cable. So why was it so special that this LG—like, they made a big

00:24:48   deal about it being over one cable. What am I missing here? It seems like this was something

00:24:52   we could already do. All right, if we're foisting this up, we'll move it up and we'll talk about it

00:24:56   now, although you're breaking the flow of what I wanted to talk about in the order I wanted to

00:25:00   talk about, which actually made sense, but that's fine. That's my job, John. That's fine. It's like

00:25:04   top four. What you just alluded to, the 5k display is that Neil Patel tweeted, and then his tweet was

00:25:11   quoted a bunch of places, that Apple confirmed to him that, "Oh, they're out of the standalone

00:25:16   display business. And that night, after I heard that tweet, I had trouble getting to

00:25:23   sleep because I was so upset about the prospect of there being no Apple monitor.

00:25:27   Are you being silly or are you serious?

00:25:29   I'm serious. But I was also upset about what had gone down that day. Because here's the

00:25:34   deal. Everything Marco said about Apple monitors is true and it's the reason I buy them. And

00:25:39   I like how the case looks, I like how it's warrantied as part of it, I like how everything

00:25:42   These are all silly reasons, but it's like it's why that's why I buy Macs and part of the reason I buy Macs

00:25:47   I like how all the stuff looks together

00:25:49   And so I don't like the idea that there's not going to be an Apple monitor

00:25:54   But what really bugs me is

00:25:57   That Apple would

00:26:01   Back channel on background semi off the record, whatever

00:26:05   confirm secretly

00:26:08   Conveyed by a tweet that they're not making monitors anymore that they're out of the standalone display business

00:26:13   If Apple is gonna be out of the standalone display business

00:26:15   They should say so as a company like you don't have to say we're never gonna make one in a million years, but just say

00:26:21   Don't wait for us to release a 5k monitor because we have no plans to do. So this is the one

00:26:28   I don't understand why Apple can't just say that instead they have to do this thing, which is like well

00:26:34   How much do I trust that do it can I find my own back channels into someone who?

00:26:38   Spoke to someone who knows something in Apple to tell us. Oh, you know we're not making them anymore

00:26:41   I know the Apple's presentation is that here's a great LG monitor. Just do it right I feel like there should be

00:26:47   Doesn't have to be in the keynote, but it should be on the record

00:26:51   Statements from Apple like not just one of them are not just a little turd

00:26:56   But like it should be common knowledge

00:26:57   Just like it's common knowledge that they're selling a new line of computers also say and by the way

00:27:01   Apple like like when Apple left the printer business

00:27:04   They didn't like just stop making printers and just tell people to buy other printers

00:27:07   But then that'll say guess what Apple's not making printers anymore. Like that wasn't a secret mystery everybody knew you know

00:27:13   That bothers me immensely. So anyway, mostly because the news is bad and

00:27:17   Part of me still wants to cling to the idea that like maybe they'll change their mind next year

00:27:22   And that's why they're not saying anything blah blah blah as for the specifically the LG thing

00:27:27   I really want someone to tear one of these apart because we don't know what's inside there

00:27:30   Is there a GPU inside there that it's communicating with through these new features in Sierra or is there not?

00:27:35   To get to Casey's question is you know multi stream multiple

00:27:39   Display port 1.2 streams or some other technique to drive a big monitor

00:27:45   Is that what the Dell ones are using because I don't think Apple invented this multi stream thing

00:27:49   Maybe it's just a standard that existed and this is the first time Apple supporting it in their notebooks

00:27:53   Or is it this weird external GPU thing?

00:27:56   we don't know as for random stuff the tipster promised us a hub that has never been delivered said about how about how the

00:28:03   Touch is now just now saying that they'll use two cables and it's very buggy

00:28:07   Anyway about this display with the the GPU or whatever. Well, you know, they Apple Apple didn't ship that

00:28:12   so

00:28:14   like

00:28:15   And I can say we've gotten conflicting reports of what exactly Apple has ever planned to ship or you know

00:28:21   or anything like that like

00:28:23   This is this is all just random here say all we have to go on is what what Apple actually

00:28:27   delivers as products and

00:28:30   And what they say publicly and right now

00:28:33   They're not delivering a monitor and they're sort of semi kind of publicly saying they're not making monitors anymore

00:28:38   which is hugely disappointing because I think that almost as much as not updating the Mac Pro in three years is

00:28:45   Sort of a

00:28:50   Abandonment of one particular market segment the segment that the segment that buys you know the segment that buys the Mac Pro basically

00:28:57   Like it's it's all part of the same thing. It's saying

00:28:59   We're not gonna make a standalone monitor

00:29:02   And if we ever make another Mac Pro just count your lucky stars

00:29:05   And you're gonna have to find another monitor for it because you don't care about it like and the mini the same thing

00:29:10   It's kind of like saying

00:29:12   The desktop Mac experience is the iMac and these other computers if we decide to make them or not that's fine like I don't understand

00:29:18   how Apple can

00:29:20   Be so dedicated to the Mac as it claims to be

00:29:23   Unless their conception of the Mac does not include anything that doesn't come with a monitor

00:29:27   Which is that may be the case but like for me as a fan of max don't come with monitors for a variety of reasons

00:29:33   Canceling the monitor for me made me feel worse than them not updating the Mac Pro for three years

00:29:38   Like it made me for the first time really truly doubt whether they were ever going to make another Mac Pro

00:29:44   I don't care about the mini like canceling the monitor to that to me

00:29:48   So here I am saying there's not gonna be any more displays,

00:29:51   right, and many people point out like,

00:29:53   how can you believe the tipster is obviously

00:29:55   all completely false information, whatever.

00:29:57   Tipster, I don't care, whatever, it's a fun diversion.

00:30:00   But finding out through Neil Hippitel through a tweet

00:30:04   from Apple back channels that Apple itself is telling people

00:30:07   or out of the standalone display business just crushed me.

00:30:10   It crushed me to the point where I was immediately

00:30:13   trying to consider if they come out with another Mac Pro,

00:30:16   I don't think I'm gonna buy one.

00:30:17   I should just get an iMac.

00:30:18   I cannot live in a world where I'm gonna wait until June of next year to get a new Mac Pro

00:30:24   and then connect the third ugly third party five head monitor to it?

00:30:28   I don't know if I can do it."

00:30:29   And I was like, "Well, if you can't do it, then what are you even waiting for?

00:30:31   Why don't you just buy an iMac?

00:30:32   Why are you sitting in front of this ancient computer?

00:30:34   It's lower than your phone now.

00:30:35   It's just ridiculous."

00:30:36   Just, I don't know.

00:30:38   This monitor thing has totally destroyed me.

00:30:40   So you're saying in this hypothetical world where they release a new Mac Pro.

00:30:47   Let's just go completely out of left field.

00:30:50   Let's say they bring back the cheese grater.

00:30:52   But new insides, everything's modern and beautiful, and the fans are silent, and everything is

00:30:59   perfect.

00:31:00   And it's made for John Syracuse.

00:31:02   But because there's no Apple external display, you would not buy that hypothetical computer.

00:31:07   That's what you're saying?

00:31:08   I'd have to think about it.

00:31:10   This is what I was up at night thinking about.

00:31:11   It's like, "Can I do it?"

00:31:12   What?

00:31:13   And I have to say, it's mostly also because I know that there's no prospect of any Mac

00:31:16   Pro until a long time from now. Like that it'll be even more waiting. If it came out

00:31:20   with the Mac Pro tomorrow, like I would be less upset. But I know there's no Mac Pro

00:31:23   coming out tomorrow. There's no Mac Pro coming out next week. There's no Mac Pro coming out

00:31:26   next month. It's going to be another long wait. And I don't, you know, I've been waiting

00:31:31   a really long time, right? I don't know if I can wait that long for the reward at the

00:31:35   end of it to be whatever the hell the Mac Pro is now. And oh, by the way, find some

00:31:40   monitor you can use with it. Good luck. I don't like it.

00:31:44   They're saying that you wouldn't buy this perfect John Syracuse Mac that I've just invented

00:31:49   out of thin air because you don't like the look of the LG monitor.

00:31:53   It's possible.

00:31:54   It's possible.

00:31:55   That does not compute in my mind.

00:31:57   That is such—

00:31:58   Well, put it this way.

00:31:59   I have never had a non-Apple monitor.

00:32:02   I've always had a series of Apple monitors.

00:32:03   John, let me give you a hint.

00:32:05   It's okay.

00:32:07   They aren't as pretty in terms of the bezel or bezel, depending on who you're talking

00:32:10   with.

00:32:11   But they work just fine.

00:32:14   And in fact, in some ways, I prefer my LG monitor at work because it's much more matte

00:32:20   than my iMac is.

00:32:21   In every other measurable way, I prefer the iMac.

00:32:23   But I'm sitting in front of a matte Apple monitor right now, you realize.

00:32:26   It's older than your Mac Pro.

00:32:27   Yeah, exactly.

00:32:29   But I mean, to each their own, if this is the way you want to live your life, then power

00:32:34   to the man.

00:32:35   I said I'm considering it.

00:32:37   This is what the display cancellation did to me.

00:32:40   In the end, I think I can probably stick it out, and I wouldn't buy the current iMac.

00:32:45   If I was waiting for an iMac, probably I would wait until they revise it with at least a

00:32:48   new GPU in it.

00:32:49   But what I'm trying to do is get myself to the point where I think you'd be okay with

00:32:53   an iMac.

00:32:54   My wife's got a 5K iMac.

00:32:55   It's like three feet over there.

00:32:56   I use it all the time.

00:32:57   The monitor is really nice.

00:32:59   It's way faster than my computer.

00:33:01   It's got a one terabyte SSD.

00:33:03   The GPU is faster than the one in my computer.

00:33:06   The more I sit there and use that one, the more I say, "What are you waiting around for

00:33:08   a Mac Pro for?

00:33:09   it's not gonna be good for your purposes anyway.

00:33:12   Like the things that get me to come back to it is like,

00:33:15   you know, here are the fan on my wife's iMac

00:33:16   and all this stuff, trying to figure out,

00:33:20   should I, when the next iMac is revised,

00:33:22   assuming it's revised early next year or something,

00:33:24   should I just buy it and not bother waiting

00:33:26   for this Mac Pro?

00:33:27   Should I buy it and then sell it

00:33:28   if I like the Mac Pro better?

00:33:29   I've just been waiting so long for this Mac Pro

00:33:31   and the cancellation of the monitor

00:33:33   has been the strongest signal to me

00:33:35   that Apple is not interested in selling me

00:33:38   the computer that I want to buy anymore.

00:33:40   I mean, as if the three year wait for the Mac Pro

00:33:41   isn't a signal enough, but who knows?

00:33:43   They could come out with a new Mac Pro

00:33:45   with their new conception of what the Mac Pro

00:33:47   is supposed to be, and I seriously doubt

00:33:49   it will be anything like the cheese grater you described.

00:33:51   But either way, if there's no display with it,

00:33:55   it's really disheartening to me.

00:33:58   Yeah.

00:33:58   - I teach their own, but I just,

00:34:00   man, that seems bananas to me.

00:34:04   But I mean, you do you.

00:34:07   I can't imagine.

00:34:08   - I mean, like I said, I'm not coming down

00:34:10   that I'm definitely gonna get an iMac.

00:34:12   I'm just like, that's what I was thinking

00:34:13   after this announcement.

00:34:14   I feel like I've come down a little bit from now,

00:34:16   but on the other side of it is like I said,

00:34:18   the 5K iMac is really good.

00:34:21   It's a really good computer.

00:34:23   Like I said, compared to the computer I have now,

00:34:26   it is better in every possible way.

00:34:28   And it's like, oh, but the GPU is not gonna be as big

00:34:31   as the one in the Mac Pro.

00:34:32   How do you know?

00:34:33   Or maybe the new conception of the Mac Pro

00:34:34   to have the same GPU as the MacBook Pro. I don't know what the new Mac Pro is going to

00:34:38   be, nobody does. It just, I don't know. So, at this point I'm still just waiting because

00:34:45   I'm not going to buy the current iMac. But, it's weird to be of two minds, like I wish

00:34:50   Apple had confirmed more strongly and officially that they're out of the standalone display

00:34:54   business, because then they could have line of questioning and all the interviewers are

00:34:57   doing, because like, "Why are you out of the standalone display business? People like to

00:35:00   buy them, and you can add a hundred bucks and get some margin, do you really sell so

00:35:03   few of them that you don't want to do that? Do you not consider that part of the whole system?

00:35:07   Do you think you can't make a good monitor? I mean, on this whole P3 thing and the color

00:35:11   calibration and the retina and all that stuff, you're all about that, except for your computers

00:35:15   that don't come with a monitor in which you say, "Fend for yourself in the land of third-party

00:35:19   monitors. Maybe we'll recommend one. Good luck with warranty and repairs. And by the way, it's ugly."

00:35:24   I agree with you, Jon. The lack of the new monitor has also made me unreasonably upset,

00:35:29   because I agree, I think it does signal

00:35:33   more than anything so far that there probably

00:35:36   won't be another Mac Pro.

00:35:37   Because again, if they were gonna make a new Mac Pro,

00:35:40   why would they not make a new monitor to go with it?

00:35:44   Do they really want the only option for Mac Pro buyers

00:35:47   to be third party, plasticy, crappy monitors?

00:35:50   Is that really what they want to be the only option

00:35:52   for their highest end computer?

00:35:54   I imagine that's not really their style.

00:35:58   That's a very strong indicator that as much as I want

00:36:02   the new Mac Pro to happen, and as much as like,

00:36:06   you know, ATBtipster says that they're working

00:36:07   on Skylake-E in some capacity, like,

00:36:10   I don't know what else that would be for,

00:36:11   except a Mac Pro, but they've worked on previous

00:36:14   Mac Pro updates and not released them.

00:36:16   You know, they've apparently worked on a 5K monitor

00:36:20   and not released it, so if they really don't wanna

00:36:23   make their own displays, I really have to look

00:36:26   at their actions and not what I want to be true

00:36:29   and not what rumors say are true

00:36:32   or not what tipsters say are true.

00:36:33   I have to look at just what they've done publicly

00:36:36   and what they've not, more what they've not done publicly

00:36:39   and I just have to come to the conclusion

00:36:41   that it is very unlikely that we'll ever see a Mac Pro again

00:36:45   because if that was not the case,

00:36:48   we would see something about it.

00:36:49   They would either have updated it all this time

00:36:52   or they would still be in the display business

00:36:54   'cause that's pretty related

00:36:56   or something else.

00:36:57   Again, this could be wrong.

00:36:59   I would love for it to be wrong.

00:37:00   I want a Mac Pro.

00:37:03   I don't want the best computer that can run the OS I use

00:37:07   to only have four CPU cores,

00:37:09   or to have loud fan noise

00:37:11   when I actually drive all those cores,

00:37:14   or to be limited in the other ways

00:37:16   that I'm actually limited compared to Mac Pros.

00:37:18   I want there to be a higher ceiling,

00:37:21   and it will really crush me morally

00:37:24   and my enthusiasm in this company

00:37:29   and the Mac platform as a whole.

00:37:31   'Cause you know what?

00:37:32   The Mac platform is really good on pro hardware.

00:37:36   It is designed for pro hardware.

00:37:39   Mac OS scales really well to tons of CPUs,

00:37:42   multiple GPUs, all sorts of cool OpenCL stuff

00:37:47   that never really took off,

00:37:48   but it still has it all in there.

00:37:50   The Mac platform is awesome.

00:37:53   It is such a good professional workstation OS.

00:37:58   And to have there no longer be professional workstation

00:38:01   hardware that can even run it,

00:38:04   that will make me very, very sad.

00:38:06   But again, I have to look at what Apple's actually doing

00:38:10   and it sure looks like there's never gonna be

00:38:14   another Mac Pro.

00:38:15   Now that being said, I am going to keep hope up

00:38:18   that there will be one.

00:38:19   I'm gonna keep hoping for it until next summer.

00:38:22   And if we don't get one by next summer,

00:38:24   when other Skylake-E workstation platforms

00:38:27   start shipping from Dell and HP and stuff,

00:38:30   if we don't get one then, I will consider it over.

00:38:34   But I am gonna hold up hope until then,

00:38:35   even though my hopes right now are pretty low.

00:38:38   - And by the way, for the tipster,

00:38:39   like the supposed 5K monitor with GPU,

00:38:42   that's why I wanna see the tear down of the LG one,

00:38:44   because assuming he's not just entirely fabricating this,

00:38:47   one explanation is what you were actually seeing

00:38:49   is the internals of the LG display inside a Thunderbolt

00:38:53   case inside Apple, because that's

00:38:54   how Apple was working on their OS side of working

00:38:57   on this thing.

00:38:58   It doesn't mean that it was ever a product that Apple was ever

00:39:01   going to ship.

00:39:02   So anyway, we have to see what's inside this LG display

00:39:04   before we know what the problems of those rumors are.

00:39:08   I would find it--

00:39:09   also, Marco would find it even more depressing

00:39:11   if they actually developed this thing internally

00:39:13   and then it never went anywhere.

00:39:14   It would be much more explicable if that was just

00:39:17   development mule for the internals that actually went into the LG display and it was there so

00:39:21   Apple could do it software side of it which again is perverse it's like if you're going to do this

00:39:25   cooperation with LG and let them sell the monitor why let them get the margin on the monitor like

00:39:30   they're already making the panels for all your stuff like just why don't you get take the margin

00:39:33   you can make a nice case for that monitor hike up the price 50 100 bucks you think we won't pay an

00:39:39   extra 50 100 bucks over the price of LG of course we will like you're not going to sell a lot of

00:39:43   them but why you know we'll get to this when we talk about the the macbook pro later but it it

00:39:49   smells like nickel and diming it's like well we don't sell enough of these to care totally i

00:39:53   acknowledge they don't sell enough of these for it to be a blip um so we can save a little money

00:39:57   by having lg do it because we don't care about the money it's it's meaningless to us it might as

00:40:01   well be zero dollars and it's a lot of hassle for qualifying it and supporting it and doing warranty

00:40:06   repairs and shipping the box it's like i totally see how this is a money loser for apple when you

00:40:10   you know, when you look at everything that's involved in it.

00:40:13   But sometimes you have to do things like that

00:40:15   to support the, you know, the use case

00:40:18   of your top end users who again,

00:40:19   maybe are not profitable anymore,

00:40:21   but I feel like they're an important part of keeping,

00:40:25   you know, like, I don't wanna go through

00:40:26   the whole Hello Car thing again,

00:40:27   but that whole angle, the monitor is part of it,

00:40:30   and selling your own monitors is part of that.

00:40:33   - Well, and like, and Apple is still in lots of businesses

00:40:36   that are also low margin or not very necessary

00:40:41   for most of their customers anymore.

00:40:42   Things like they still sell their Wi-Fi routers

00:40:44   and their time capsules.

00:40:45   Like why?

00:40:46   Why does Apple sell an outdated wireless router?

00:40:50   - Don't tell them they'll hear you.

00:40:51   - Right, like?

00:40:52   - They're gonna cancel those products too.

00:40:54   - I'd rather they kill those than the monitors.

00:40:55   Like look, Apple, all these people who try to justify

00:41:00   what Apple's doing, they try to make excuses for Apple,

00:41:02   which you don't need to do,

00:41:04   you can almost always look at other parts

00:41:07   of the Apple product line or very recent history

00:41:10   and you can get contradictions to that

00:41:11   or counter arguments to that.

00:41:12   Like in the case of the monitor thing,

00:41:14   like yeah, Apple doesn't need to be in the monitor business.

00:41:17   You know, they don't need to be in any business.

00:41:19   Like they just need to be in the iPhone business.

00:41:21   That's it.

00:41:22   But you know, Apple can do just fine cutting out monitors

00:41:25   but then why are they not cutting out everything?

00:41:27   Why are they not cutting out iPods?

00:41:29   Apple still makes an entire line of iPods.

00:41:32   And iPods are actually holding back progress

00:41:35   in things like iTunes.

00:41:37   Like imagine if Apple could totally cut iTunes iPod support.

00:41:42   That could free up iTunes.

00:41:44   It could free up so much engineering resources

00:41:47   and legacy support and old stuff.

00:41:49   It could accelerate a possible future

00:41:51   in which iTunes has its functions broken up

00:41:53   into different apps that are actually good.

00:41:55   They have tons of reasons to not sell iPods anymore,

00:42:00   but they still sell them

00:42:01   because of a handful of reasons

00:42:04   that are good enough to keep them going.

00:42:05   I'm not really sure what those are,

00:42:07   but I'm sure people are buying them to some degree, right?

00:42:09   Wi-Fi routers and stuff,

00:42:11   I don't expect them to get frequent updates.

00:42:14   I mean, they're already very outdated,

00:42:15   and who knows, and they're not really a great deal anymore,

00:42:18   but they still sell them for some reason.

00:42:20   They still sell time capsules for some reason.

00:42:22   I mean, talk about an ancient technology.

00:42:25   The time capsule is an outdated wireless router

00:42:29   with a giant spinning hard drive in it.

00:42:32   They still sell that, but they decided

00:42:34   that monitors aren't worth selling anymore?

00:42:37   That makes no sense to me unless they're killing off

00:42:41   their entire desktop line except the iMac.

00:42:43   You know, and one more thing too,

00:42:44   it isn't even just about desktops.

00:42:46   Lots of people connect external monitors

00:42:49   to their MacBook Air and MacBook Pros.

00:42:52   So even if they kill the desktops,

00:42:55   they should still have displays

00:42:58   that are sold for laptop customers.

00:43:00   Like the last one, the Thunderbolt and LED display

00:43:03   before that, they were designed for laptops.

00:43:06   They had the little MagSafe charger and everything

00:43:08   that would charge their laptops up.

00:43:08   - So is this LG one.

00:43:10   - Right, these are obviously designed,

00:43:11   so obviously this is still a business that exists,

00:43:15   even if you kill a desktop.

00:43:17   So I don't know, it makes no sense.

00:43:19   - So we're saying that because Apple got out

00:43:23   of the display business, that is the canary

00:43:27   the coal mine for non-iMac desktops.

00:43:30   And that could be, I don't think I agree,

00:43:35   but that could be.

00:43:36   - Well, it's one of many.

00:43:37   It's in the context of they haven't,

00:43:41   not only have they not even updated the Mac Pro

00:43:43   in three years and the Mac Mini in I think as long

00:43:46   or roughly as long, but the last update

00:43:48   to both of those products made them worse

00:43:51   in certain key ways and that they have not,

00:43:54   not only have they not updated them,

00:43:55   They haven't even mentioned them.

00:43:57   Like they weren't even on the,

00:43:58   like when Apple showed the slide of the Mac family,

00:44:01   they weren't even on the slide.

00:44:02   Like they're basically,

00:44:04   they're still selling them totally unchanged for three years

00:44:09   not a single update to like GPUs or anything like that.

00:44:13   Like nothing has changed.

00:44:15   So that is, you know, in the context of that,

00:44:20   where you have this very high end machine

00:44:22   that they do a major redesign of

00:44:23   that's kind of more restrictive and more expensive.

00:44:25   They talk about innovation a lot

00:44:27   and then they never talk about it again.

00:44:29   That's not good.

00:44:32   - Sure.

00:44:32   - So in the context of that, them also saying,

00:44:35   you know what, we're not gonna make our own version

00:44:37   of this 5K display, which technically would be perfect

00:44:41   for the next model of Mac Pro.

00:44:44   If they made the Apple version of this display

00:44:47   and launched at the same time as a Mac Pro

00:44:49   next year sometime, that'd be amazing.

00:44:52   And so many people would buy that combo,

00:44:55   which would probably cost like $7,000,

00:44:57   but you'd buy it because we waited so long

00:45:00   and it'd be so good.

00:45:02   But again, I just, I don't,

00:45:04   if I'm honest with myself,

00:45:06   I really don't think it's going to happen.

00:45:08   - I don't think the lack of a monitor

00:45:09   is any particular indicator for the desktop.

00:45:14   I still think there's a chance they'll update the Mac Pro,

00:45:16   but like Marco pointed out,

00:45:18   it's more of an indicator that Apple cares less

00:45:22   about configurations that involve an external display,

00:45:24   because all the monitors having a little MagSafe connector,

00:45:28   it was clear, it's like,

00:45:29   most people who are gonna buy this monitor are buying it

00:45:31   because they have a laptop,

00:45:32   but when they sit down at their desk,

00:45:34   they want a bigger screen than is available on a laptop.

00:45:36   That's what these screens are for.

00:45:38   Oh, and by the way, they also connect to desktop Macs,

00:45:39   but nobody cares, right?

00:45:41   And that aesthetic, and this is just me personally,

00:45:44   that aesthetic of,

00:45:45   'cause it's the main thing you're looking at

00:45:47   when you're using a computer

00:45:47   is you're looking at the screen.

00:45:49   Like, what does a Mac look like?

00:45:50   back in the original Mac, the whole thing was one thing.

00:45:53   The screen, the floppy drive, the power supply,

00:45:56   you know, eventually the hard drive,

00:45:58   everything was all in one.

00:46:00   Eventually, you're not looking at the computer part anymore,

00:46:03   except in the case of the iMac where it's all in one, right?

00:46:06   What you're looking at is a screen,

00:46:07   and then you've got these tower computers,

00:46:09   your Mac mini for, you know, for the desktop use cases.

00:46:11   Giving up on the monitor,

00:46:14   I'm surprised even Johnny Ive would allow this,

00:46:15   means that anybody who wants a bigger screen

00:46:17   than is available on a laptop

00:46:18   is not going to be looking at an Apple thing.

00:46:20   And I feel like it's not like,

00:46:22   oh, I don't have a Mac anymore

00:46:23   just because the screen is in an Apple screen or whatever.

00:46:25   It's just like that whole vibe of having an entire system

00:46:30   that all matches and all works together.

00:46:33   And that has the highest guarantee of compatibility

00:46:37   and supportedness over the years

00:46:39   and is the most integrated with, you know,

00:46:42   whatever weird buttons Apple puts on,

00:46:44   whatever weird keyboard control they have

00:46:46   are always gonna work with them on and all that stuff.

00:46:47   LG is totally integrated like that now, which they emphasize in the keynote, and maybe Apple

00:46:52   will keep them up to date, but maybe Apple will lose interest and be like, "Oh, if you

00:46:55   bought that old LG one, it's up to LG to update us with the drivers."

00:46:59   Or like, who knows?

00:47:00   It seems like it'll be less supported, but it's just giving up on that whole vibe of

00:47:04   having all Apple stuff.

00:47:06   It's part of the reason that I personally like buying Macs, and taking that reason away

00:47:09   makes me less enthusiastic about getting a shiny new Mac if then I also have to wade

00:47:15   into the world of third-party monitors or be forced to pick just one third-party monitor

00:47:19   because it's literally the only one that works with their stuff in the integrated way that

00:47:22   I want it to work.

00:47:26   It makes me less enthusiastic to buy a new Mac.

00:47:28   I guess you spend a lot more time looking at the bezel of your monitors than I do because

00:47:34   that thing just, I mean, I'm looking at a 4K LG monitor for now 40 to 45 hours a week.

00:47:42   And I mean, in a perfect world, I'd like two of them side by side, or even in a more perfect

00:47:47   world, I guess I should say, a couple of Apple monitors.

00:47:49   I don't disagree with you that Apple monitors would be better in principle.

00:47:53   But I can't say that I look at the bezel of this thing particularly often and that I think

00:48:00   to myself, "Well, you know, life sucks because this isn't a shiny piece of aluminum," to

00:48:04   each their own.

00:48:05   This is why we're different people.

00:48:06   But that just seems bananas to me that it makes sense.

00:48:09   It used to be a PC user, so you're still looking at a lot of black plasticy crap.

00:48:13   But I guess I don't view this as so egregious.

00:48:18   And I mean, and again, to be clear, I don't think that this LG monitor that I'm looking

00:48:22   at for 45 hours a week is pretty.

00:48:23   I don't.

00:48:24   I think it's relatively ugly.

00:48:26   And there's problems with it.

00:48:27   It doesn't have wide color, which to be honest, I still don't see the difference that I can

00:48:31   tell even in my iPhone for wide color, but whatever.

00:48:35   It doesn't have wide color.

00:48:37   mount on it that comes with it that doesn't adjust height adjust it's it's stationary

00:48:42   it's static which is annoying it doesn't pitch 90 degrees which I never ever do but it'd

00:48:46   be nice to have the option for some reason so there's plenty of things I don't like about

00:48:49   it but the end of the day all I'm looking at is the things on the screen and and not

00:48:55   Apple not doing a monitor to me doesn't necessarily mean they don't care I mean look at the iPhone

00:49:01   7 that a lot of people, a ton of people, think that they charge and listen to music at the

00:49:08   same time.

00:49:09   I don't know if that's true or not, but a lot of people seem to think it.

00:49:12   And if you go to the Apple accessories, Apple iPhone accessories page, sure enough there

00:49:18   is a lightning audio and charge cable.

00:49:21   So it's one lightning to two lightning.

00:49:23   You know who makes that?

00:49:24   Belkin.

00:49:25   And if Apple really gave a crap about the iPhone, I guess they should make that too,

00:49:28   right?

00:49:29   I mean, it's...

00:49:30   I'm not making a leap to give a crap about the Mac.

00:49:35   It's just that my particular use case, what I'm thinking that they're giving up on that

00:49:39   they don't care as much about is the holistic aesthetic.

00:49:41   Like I said, forget about desktop.

00:49:42   Pretend there are no desktop computers and it's only laptops.

00:49:46   The old Apple cared enough about the overall aesthetic of the system that they can put

00:49:50   in their product shots and that their ideal customer would buy to make giant expensive

00:49:55   monitors that, as people in the chat room point out, are always way more expensive than

00:49:59   equivalent monitors for the same panels, like again, granted, right?

00:50:03   With little magsafe things to charge your monitor dangling off the end of them.

00:50:07   Like, it was a laptop accessory.

00:50:10   And why, who in the world would buy a laptop accessory from Apple at a ridiculous price?

00:50:14   Because it looks really nice.

00:50:15   Like, that's it, because it matches and it looks nice.

00:50:18   Right?

00:50:19   And yeah, they happened to be usually good monitors when they came out and they were

00:50:21   convenient and all those stuff, but like, it's Apple saying, yeah, it did look nice,

00:50:28   And it was cool, but the coolness was not worth being in this business just anymore.

00:50:34   And the coolness to me is totally worth it, and I would like to give them money and they

00:50:37   won't take my money.

00:50:38   And it makes me sad.

00:50:40   Is it a good business idea?

00:50:42   Is it better to get out of that business because it was a money loser and most people don't

00:50:45   care?

00:50:46   I don't know.

00:50:47   It doesn't really say anything about whether they care about the Mac or whatever.

00:50:50   It just means that their priorities don't align with mine and this particular issue

00:50:54   and I'm sad about it.

00:50:55   All right.

00:50:56   We'd spent a lot longer talking about that than I expected.

00:50:58   My goodness.

00:50:59   - I spent a lot longer thinking about that than I expected.

00:51:02   I couldn't believe it.

00:51:03   Seriously, I was up and my wife was already asleep next to me

00:51:06   and I'm like, what am I gonna do?

00:51:09   Am I even getting a Mac Pro?

00:51:10   Should I give up?

00:51:11   Like, it was terrible.

00:51:12   It was a literal dark night of the soul

00:51:15   when I found out that monitor was canceled.

00:51:16   - Wow.

00:51:17   - Not one that didn't update the Mac Pro for three years.

00:51:19   Here I am just happily hoping like,

00:51:22   I'm sure they'll update it eventually.

00:51:23   I'm just waiting patiently.

00:51:24   Look at me, be patient.

00:51:25   No more monitors.

00:51:26   "No, no!"

00:51:28   - Well, my thoughts and prayers are with you

00:51:29   in this difficult time.

00:51:30   Dan Frakes writes that Apple has told him

00:51:33   that the MacBook Pro maxes out at 16 gigs of RAM

00:51:37   because LPDDR3's limit is 16 gigs of chip,

00:51:41   and Apple uses it because of a performance to energy ratio.

00:51:45   And then building on that, there was a,

00:51:49   I guess an interview or somebody asked Schiller,

00:51:51   I think it was. - It was an email.

00:51:52   They emailed him and he replied.

00:51:54   - Schiller said, and I'm quoting,

00:51:55   to put more than 16 gigs of fast RAM into a notebook designed at this time would require

00:52:01   a memory system that consumes much more power and wouldn't be efficient enough for a notebook.

00:52:05   I hope you check out this new generation of MacBook Pro.

00:52:07   It really is an incredible system."

00:52:09   So that is supposedly—and other people have come to this conclusion as well—that is

00:52:14   supposedly why Apple is not shipping more than 16 gigs of RAM in the MacBook Pros.

00:52:19   Which, full stop, I mean, that's a bummer.

00:52:21   If I were to buy one today, I would absolutely want more than 16.

00:52:26   Would I need more than 16?

00:52:28   Probably not, but I'd want it.

00:52:30   And that's today, and sometimes people want these computers to last four or five years.

00:52:34   That's not unusual.

00:52:35   So this is a bummer, but I don't really see how this is Apple's fault.

00:52:41   And I'm assuming one of you is going to tell me, "Well, I would definitely pay money for

00:52:44   the thing that lasts two hours that has 11 gigs or 80 million gigs of RAM."

00:52:48   Not two hours, but yeah.

00:52:50   Well, before we even get to that angle, there has been much support for the idea that this

00:52:57   is not Apple's fault out there.

00:53:00   This is the basics of just like the specific CPU they're using with the good GPU or whatever,

00:53:07   the good GPU, the Iris Pro graphics or whatever.

00:53:10   Doesn't have a chipset that supports more memory capacity and blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:53:14   This is a thing.

00:53:17   One other thing that people have brought up, surprisingly, showing the lengths people will

00:53:21   go to to make excuses for Apple, is that there is a – FAA has a restriction of like 100

00:53:29   watt hours for batteries, right?

00:53:32   And that Apple can't make a battery bigger than that, you know, which I don't even

00:53:37   know if that's true, first of all.

00:53:38   But second of all, let's just assume it is true.

00:53:40   And then they follow that up by saying, "And that's why the new MacBook Pros have a 76

00:53:44   watt hour battery."

00:53:45   It's like, "Well, wait a second."

00:53:48   What they're saying is, yeah, they could add that extra 20-something watt-hours, but that

00:53:52   wouldn't be enough to power the memory subsystem required to support 32 gigs of RAM.

00:53:57   I think the actual issue, as with a lot of this Intel stuff, is not that you can't have

00:54:02   a laptop that is also pretty small and light that supports 32 gigs of RAM, because I'm

00:54:07   pretty sure Dell sells one that's not that much bigger than the, you know, it is thicker,

00:54:11   Granted, but it's not that much thicker and it supports 32 gigs of RAM and he uses the sixth generation Intel chip

00:54:19   You know the you know, it's not it's not a Kaby Lake or whatever

00:54:22   I'm pretty sure it's it's skylake ones but but but but I'm also pretty sure it's not the particular

00:54:29   Skylake chips that Apple always uses with the big honkin

00:54:32   Embedded GPU with the easy RAM and all that other crap. So I still put this

00:54:38   mostly on Apple because

00:54:41   They insist on using

00:54:43   Only a particular strain the best strain to be fair

00:54:46   They always want the best of the best the ones with the best embedded GPU because a lot of the stuff in

00:54:51   Mac OS uses the GPU for things right so they want the best of the best and

00:54:54   If the best of the best isn't available

00:54:57   They won't ship the other kind and what I was thinking about is the way

00:55:01   To potentially solve this with the with the smallest number of sacrifices in the short term until that you know another chip comes out

00:55:08   They does it is ship

00:55:11   the Intel CPU

00:55:13   With either the crappy here the crappy one the not the one that doesn't have the fancy embedded GPU in it

00:55:20   Because you're putting a discrete GPU and everything anyway and do it the old-fashioned way where you just always use the discrete GPU

00:55:26   And yes, that would slaughter battery life and now you can support through gigs of RAM

00:55:29   Which is a slaughter battery life even more and yes

00:55:32   Then you'd have to make the thing three millimeters thicker and then you'd probably have to make it a separate model

00:55:36   and then why are we having a separate model that's just this weird transitional thing like the fat MacBook Pro for people who need all this crap

00:55:42   And that just gets it right back to the original argument, which is that's not what Apple wants to do or whatever

00:55:46   So in the end

00:55:48   I don't think this is that big a deal because I think actually in this case given the constraints put on them by Intel

00:55:54   They probably made the right choice because what they're designing this MacBook Pro case

00:55:59   I assume the 15-inch MacBook Pro case will be with us for a pretty long time

00:56:03   I don't expect them to shave another two millimeters off of next year

00:56:06   I expect this case to be the guts to be swapped out of it and new guts to be put into it, right?

00:56:10   and

00:56:11   If it just so happens that Intel doesn't give them anything that can fit in this case with this much battery with reasonable battery life

00:56:17   It is a better choice to limit to 16 to keep the battery life at what it is

00:56:22   Like it's a better choice economically speaking and for uniformity

00:56:27   It would be a better choice for customers who are very demanding to all to make that other model just for them

00:56:33   But boy that's asking a lot of a company

00:56:36   That is trying to narrow things down and that hasn't updated the Mac Pro in three years to make a special one-off model just for this

00:56:42   generation of Intel CPU

00:56:43   Because it can't support 32 gigs of RAM

00:56:45   That is thicker and has more battery and uses a different arrangement of CPU and GPU and also still gets worse battery life

00:56:53   That's just not a thing that Apple is interested in doing so if they're not interested in doing that like

00:56:58   16 gigs of RAM is an embarrassing for the people who don't buy it

00:57:02   because it can't support 32 I

00:57:04   Feel for them in the same way I feel for people who want Mac pros and who want external monitors

00:57:11   But it is in keeping with what Apple has been doing to its product line

00:57:15   And I think they are there they're hitting the fat part of the curve there most people don't need more than that

00:57:21   It is better to have a lighter thinner thing and have lower power requirements. So

00:57:24   This is exactly in the same vein as everything else. We talked about

00:57:28   Apple not making

00:57:31   hardware for this very narrow set of people who are very demanding and in this case it is partially explicable by

00:57:38   The availability of the kinds of CPUs they can put in it, but it still makes all of us sad

00:57:43   That's what we're talking about this show

00:57:44   We're not talking about how Apple is doomed and how this is a bad computer and people shouldn't buy it

00:57:48   We're totally talking about how a bunch of nerds who want the best of the best are sad about the choices Apple is making.

00:57:54   Yeah, well because like here's here's why like

00:57:56   Some people have expressed, you know bewilderment, you know

00:57:59   why are so many people so upset about the new MacBook Pros and the thing is like

00:58:03   Apple makes

00:58:06   one type of laptop now really, you know

00:58:09   They make the the the ultra thin and light the ultra portable all of their laptops now are in this category

00:58:15   like it used to be not that long ago

00:58:17   that most computer manufacturers

00:58:19   had different laptop lines,

00:58:21   basically with different size, weight,

00:58:24   and performance classes.

00:58:25   So you'd have like the thin and light,

00:58:27   which by today's standards would be considered

00:58:29   comically heavy, but basically you have the old thin

00:58:31   and lights that were like exactly what it sounds like,

00:58:34   but as a result they would be usually slower,

00:58:36   more limited and everything.

00:58:38   And then you kind of have like the mainstream line,

00:58:40   kind of in the middle,

00:58:41   and then you have the desktop replacement,

00:58:42   which is like the big, heavy ones that have

00:58:46   the very highest end CPUs, GPUs and stuff

00:58:50   that you could fit in any reasonably sized laptop.

00:58:53   And basically, Apple only makes one of those now.

00:58:57   Basically everything Apple makes is a thin and light.

00:58:59   And the reason why so many people get upset

00:59:02   every time they change or don't change anything,

00:59:04   mostly when the changes happen,

00:59:06   is that making a thin and light requires you

00:59:10   you to cut lots of things and to limit lots of things and to not address lots of what

00:59:15   everyone thinks are edge cases or as you just said John, like little narrow slices of the

00:59:20   market. The problem is this is kind of like the 80/20 myth. The main problem here is like

00:59:25   you look at the list of things that got worse between the last MacBook Pro and this one.

00:59:30   Obviously things got better, you know, weight, performance, batteries. Certain things got

00:59:33   better, right? But certain things were either cut or got worse. Certain, you know, ports

00:59:39   are no longer there, the SD card reader's no longer there,

00:59:42   the RAM ceiling did not get raised

00:59:45   to what people want and everything.

00:59:47   Any individual one of these excuses,

00:59:49   or any individual one of these problems

00:59:51   can be justified or excused in some way.

00:59:54   Usually it goes with either like,

00:59:57   well, we couldn't fit more in this super thin,

01:00:00   light, low power computer,

01:00:03   which is kind of a self-imposed problem,

01:00:05   because they don't make one that isn't super thin,

01:00:07   light, and low power.

01:00:08   Or you can justify these things by saying,

01:00:10   well, we cut the SD card reader, whatever it is,

01:00:14   or we cut the HDMI port because only some little percentage

01:00:18   of the user base used it.

01:00:21   The problem is that the little percentage of the user base

01:00:24   that used the HDMI port does not completely overlap

01:00:28   with the little percentage of the user base

01:00:29   that used the SD card slot, and so on and so on.

01:00:32   So if you look at the sum of all of the little limitations

01:00:36   and things that have been added to this.

01:00:39   And additionally, by the way, the price hikes don't help,

01:00:41   so then you have the not small percentage of the user base

01:00:44   who is very unhappy or actually has to make

01:00:48   a different decision now because of the price hike.

01:00:50   So basically, you add all these percentages up,

01:00:53   and while it may seem that any one of the downsides

01:00:57   might only affect a small percentage of the user base,

01:01:01   a large percentage of the user base

01:01:03   is affected by one of them.

01:01:05   Like just, you can't name, you know, the simple stats.

01:01:07   Like, you can't say like everyone is affected

01:01:10   by the removal of the HDMI port,

01:01:12   but lots of people are affected by one of the removals

01:01:16   on this computer, it's just different for everybody.

01:01:18   And a pro line, like it, you know, historically,

01:01:23   the highest end laptops would have the fewest limits,

01:01:26   because they could.

01:01:27   They had, they had, they had larger cases,

01:01:29   they usually had larger screens,

01:01:30   so they were bigger, they were higher priced,

01:01:34   They sold in smaller quantities to more demanding markets.

01:01:37   And so there was room, both physically

01:01:39   and in profit margin and everything else,

01:01:42   there was room for more ports, higher end things,

01:01:45   higher wattage things and everything.

01:01:47   And so to have even the pro machine

01:01:51   be this limited in so many ways,

01:01:56   and to have so many of the potential

01:01:58   or actual buyers of this machine

01:02:00   being disappointed by one thing that got worse about it,

01:02:04   compared to the previous ones.

01:02:06   That is why so many people are mad,

01:02:07   because that's usually, you don't usually do that

01:02:09   in high-end pro machines.

01:02:10   Usually things don't get extremely more restrictive

01:02:14   at the high end.

01:02:15   Usually the high end is where you go,

01:02:17   because what everyone considers like designing

01:02:19   for the future and being forward-looking and everything,

01:02:21   that's all done at the low end.

01:02:23   Like when the MacBook One came out,

01:02:25   we all said, you know, well, that's a really

01:02:28   very compromised machine in a lot of ways,

01:02:30   but we can just say, well, you know what?

01:02:32   it's not for you, so you don't have to buy it.

01:02:35   And that worked for like a year and a half, until now,

01:02:39   the compromises for the MacBook One have now

01:02:42   mostly been spread to the entire line of MacBooks.

01:02:44   So now, you can't just say that's not for you anymore.

01:02:47   Now it's like, well, if you still wanna use macOS,

01:02:51   whenever your current laptop dies, you need another one,

01:02:54   you're gonna have these restrictions on you, that's it.

01:02:57   It's the combination of all those stats adding up

01:03:01   to be like, you know, almost everyone's affected by one of these things, compared to also now

01:03:06   the new lack of choice that we really have about a lot of these factors. Like, if Apple

01:03:10   were to make, and look, one of the ways they could address this, they still sell the old

01:03:16   one. Now, they did this also when they introduced the Retina MacBook Pro in 2012, the very first

01:03:22   Retina MacBook Pro in 2012. They launched for, I believe, also $2,200 or $2,400, something

01:03:28   like that, which was higher than the previous one, so they kept selling the old one to hit

01:03:32   a price point. But they did something else. They updated the internals of the old one

01:03:37   as well to match the new one. So whatever, I think, I forget what CPU generation that

01:03:42   was, whatever was before Haswell, it was the one right before that, right? When the 2012

01:03:47   redesign happened, the last redesign in this lineup, they kept selling the old one, but

01:03:50   they updated the guts so that it was, if you didn't care about the retina screen and the

01:03:56   the thinner and lighterness of it,

01:03:58   you could still get all your old stuff

01:04:00   in the old one with new guts.

01:04:02   This time, they're doing the same thing

01:04:04   where you can still get the old one

01:04:06   if you don't care about the new advances and everything,

01:04:08   but they didn't update the guts.

01:04:10   And you gotta think about, you know,

01:04:12   the first of all is kind of a bummer.

01:04:13   Second of all, why?

01:04:15   The honest reason is probably because they just don't care.

01:04:17   They're gonna phase these things out,

01:04:19   and obviously Apple does not care

01:04:20   about keeping their Macs up to date.

01:04:21   You know, that's modern Apple.

01:04:23   Thanks, whoever.

01:04:24   But imagine if you saw the new 15 inch MacBook Pro,

01:04:29   and next to it in the store page, as it is now,

01:04:33   is the old one, but imagine if the old one

01:04:35   also got Skylake and a couple of USB-C Thunderbolt 3 ports.

01:04:39   Which one of those would look more like the Pro machine,

01:04:42   and which one of those do you think would sell more?

01:04:44   - Okay, so let's suppose you wanted a machine

01:04:54   with infinite flexibility in that,

01:04:58   or infinite is a strong word.

01:04:59   Let's suppose you wanted a machine

01:05:01   where you had several ports,

01:05:04   any of which could do fricking anything.

01:05:08   It could drive a display.

01:05:10   It could accept power.

01:05:11   It could drive old USB.

01:05:13   It could drive new USB.

01:05:14   It can do anything.

01:05:17   You could plug in a little docking port or not.

01:05:20   You could plug an SD card reader or not,

01:05:22   or a compact flashcard reader.

01:05:24   I just don't see this the same way that you guys seem to.

01:05:31   And the reality of the situation is

01:05:33   there's no right or wrong.

01:05:34   I'm right and I'm wrong.

01:05:36   Marco is right, Andy's wrong, John is right, Andy's wrong.

01:05:39   Well, except John is never wrong.

01:05:41   I have no USB-C peripherals.

01:05:48   And there are times that I plug things in to my USB ports on my MacBook Pro.

01:05:55   There are times I plug in an HDMI cable to my MacBook Pro.

01:06:01   I certainly would need a dongle or two in order to hypothetically get one of these new

01:06:09   MacBook Pros.

01:06:11   And in the near term, that might be a little annoying.

01:06:16   I don't see it as anything more than that.

01:06:19   And I see this, I personally do see this as the Pro Machine.

01:06:24   In fact, the thing that I'm grumpy about is what we already talked about, which is 16

01:06:28   gigs RAM.

01:06:29   But in every other way to me, this is very much the Pro Machine.

01:06:33   It has four ports that you can use for fricking anything.

01:06:38   And I don't understand why the world is so friggin' worked up about dongles.

01:06:44   A, they're annoying.

01:06:46   Okay, they're annoying, fine.

01:06:47   Whatever.

01:06:48   I have a dongle today for Ethernet.

01:06:51   I use it from time to time, and you know what?

01:06:53   Life goes on.

01:06:54   I have a dongle sometimes for displays.

01:06:58   Right now I actually have a cable that goes Thunderbolt to, I think it's DisplayPort,

01:07:03   but for years I used a dongle for my display.

01:07:06   And you know what?

01:07:07   Life went on.

01:07:08   And have I lost any of these dongles?

01:07:10   No, I don't think so, because I'm an adult.

01:07:13   I don't lose things. That's not something that I do. I just, ah, it drives me bananas because to me,

01:07:20   it's so... - Wait until you get your AirPods, we'll see. - Maybe, maybe. But on the one side,

01:07:26   I do agree with you, Marco. And I'm not placating. I really honestly do. Like,

01:07:30   I understand where you're coming from and there's certainly something to be said for,

01:07:37   maybe this is too early. Maybe this is leaving the true utter professionals out to dry. But

01:07:42   Let's—the only thing I can do is use me as an example.

01:07:45   I write code for a living.

01:07:47   That's what I do.

01:07:48   By most definitions, that is a pro-level profession.

01:07:53   Whatever definition of pro you so choose.

01:07:56   It's the sort of thing that, even if I wanted to, today I could not do on an iPad.

01:08:02   Yes, there's Swift Playgrounds, but you can't release an app to the App Store with Swift

01:08:06   Playgrounds.

01:08:07   I have to have a Mac.

01:08:09   I can't have a PC unless I hack and touch, whatever.

01:08:11   I have to have a Mac.

01:08:13   And so I--

01:08:14   - I like your Hackintosh voice.

01:08:17   - So I am by at least some definition a professional.

01:08:21   I'm not a photographer,

01:08:23   that's a different kind of professional.

01:08:24   I'm not an artist, that's a different kind of professional.

01:08:27   But I am a professional.

01:08:29   - No question.

01:08:30   - And for me, I think this machine would be friggin' awesome.

01:08:35   And there will be times that I'm gonna have to plug in

01:08:37   my iPhone 7 to this computer and oh my God,

01:08:39   I need a dongle.

01:08:40   (laughs)

01:08:41   "Oh well, or I'll just get one of the USB-C to lightning frickin' cables."

01:08:45   Like, this is not a big deal. This is a problem that can be solved.

01:08:50   I don't understand why there's so much...

01:08:53   Oh, God, there's so much angst about this.

01:08:55   And yes, Marco, and I'm picking on you because, you know,

01:08:58   I feel like you and I are most vocally on opposite sides of this conversation.

01:09:02   I do agree with you.

01:09:03   And again, I hope I don't sound like I'm placating you,

01:09:05   because I mean it. I agree with you.

01:09:06   It is less convenient to plug in something to a dongle to the computer

01:09:11   and plugging it in directly to the computer.

01:09:13   Totally agree with you.

01:09:14   But at the same time, the only way to get the world forward,

01:09:19   the only way to march forward and to get people using USB-C

01:09:23   is to friggin' force them to.

01:09:24   Because gosh knows, even as a super nerd who

01:09:27   wants to live on the cutting edge,

01:09:29   if I have the choice between using old-ass USB or modern USB,

01:09:33   I'm going to choose the old one because that's

01:09:35   what all my stuff already is.

01:09:36   I'm never going to bother buying a USB-C to Lightning cable.

01:09:39   What does that do for me?

01:09:40   a damn thing other than cost me 20 bucks, whatever it is. So at some point you have to rip the band-aid

01:09:46   off. Now maybe, maybe it's too soon. Maybe, maybe this is not the right time. I don't have a good

01:09:52   answer for that. That very well could be true. But at some point, Apple has to say this new future

01:10:00   where any port can be anything to anyone is worth fighting for. And I personally am okay with that.

01:10:09   I think I might be standing alone on this one, and that's okay.

01:10:12   And it's kind of funny because I'm actually not in the market for a laptop,

01:10:15   and I probably won't be for another couple of years at the earliest,

01:10:18   but I'm looking forward to getting one of these.

01:10:22   I would like a lighter laptop. Do I need one? No, I don't.

01:10:26   But I'd like it. I'd like a laptop where I can plug in the power port.

01:10:31   Damn it, RIP MagSafe, but be that as it may, I can plug in power to either side as I see fit.

01:10:36   Why not? Weee! I can do whatever I want.

01:10:38   I'd like a laptop where I could plug in a cheap docking station.

01:10:42   The only reason I haven't bought a Thunderbolt docking station, which would be amazing, is

01:10:47   well actually I only plug a couple things into my computer anyway, but beyond that,

01:10:51   they're friggin' expensive.

01:10:52   They're like $300 for a crappy docking station.

01:10:54   And I've seen reasonable USB-C docking stations for like half that money.

01:10:59   Well that's because of the protocol, not the connector.

01:11:03   Fair, fair.

01:11:04   And I'm frustrated not with any one particular person.

01:11:08   I'm frustrated in general because I understand

01:11:11   where you're coming from, Marco, and you're not wrong.

01:11:14   Despite everything I've just said, you're not wrong.

01:11:17   But at the same time, I just, I don't feel like

01:11:20   this is such an affront to the professional

01:11:23   as everyone else in the world seems to.

01:11:25   So, and since I'm the only one that's making this speech,

01:11:28   it seems, I guess I'm the one that's wrong.

01:11:31   But you know what I'm saying.

01:11:33   You didn't, you just lumped me in with Marco before and didn't even ask me what I thought

01:11:37   of this. Marco already knows because I think we discussed it in Slack at one point.

01:11:41   Well, Jon, what do you think? I'll give you the floor, sir.

01:11:45   Again, I understand everything that Marco was saying about this. I think that going

01:11:52   all Thunderbolt 3 is the right thing to do on these computers. In fact, I wish they had

01:11:58   even more ports because I'm a port maniac and I'm mostly on that side. I think if they had the two

01:12:04   laptops that Marco described, the bigger one than the skinny one, I think the skinny one would sell

01:12:08   more. Way more. Kind of the same reason that the laptop that had a CF card slot, or not CF card

01:12:15   slot, the PC card, formerly known as PCMCIA. The Express Card 34? Yeah, whatever. And the side of

01:12:21   the 17-inch laptop, that was sitting there too. It had tons of ports. It had ports no other laptop

01:12:26   had because it could because it was big enough to have them right and they discontinued it because

01:12:30   not enough people bought it right i totally see the trade-offs i hate dongles too i want the future

01:12:35   where everything is uniform i think making a machine like this brings the future here sooner

01:12:42   by forcing people to do uncomfortable things the problem i have as with almost every other

01:12:46   criticism surrounding this event is not so much with the machines that were introduced

01:12:51   But with the fact that, "Hey Apple, if you really want to hasten the USB-C future, put

01:12:56   it on all your Macs and stop selling the ones that don't have it."

01:13:00   I am even more enthusiastic for, "Please get rid of all of this.

01:13:03   We're never going to get rid of this legacy USB stuff if Apple keeps selling year after

01:13:07   year after year computers with this connector on it."

01:13:10   The current iMac has this connector.

01:13:11   The current Mac Pro, let's not even talk about, right?

01:13:14   It does not have Thunderbolt 3 connectors in the back of it.

01:13:17   In fact, nothing has Thunderbolt 3 things on the back.

01:13:20   It's just, yeah, so this particular Mac, if I had to pick what the complement of ports

01:13:26   should be on this particular Mac, the only difference I would do is I would put the SD

01:13:30   card slot on it, as Marco ranted about on Twitter today, not because it's that big a

01:13:35   deal and most people don't use it, but because I think it's small, there's room for it, and

01:13:39   it is the one thing that there is not, there's nothing you can do to the outside, that Apple

01:13:44   can do to the outside world to force the outside world to come up with a solution that obviates

01:13:48   the need to stick an SD card into something because Apple doesn't make standalone cameras

01:13:53   so they can't force standalone camera companies to suddenly make really fast reliable wireless

01:13:58   or really improved USB or anything like that that is going to make it so that you have

01:14:03   a solution that is better than taking the SD card out, right?

01:14:06   So given that they can't do that and there's no replacement for the SD card, just put the

01:14:10   slot in there.

01:14:11   It's a little bit easier.

01:14:12   It's not a big deal.

01:14:13   Put it only on the big one.

01:14:14   Like that is the only change I would have made.

01:14:15   not put USB Type-A connectors on this thing anywhere. I would not put an HDMI port. I

01:14:20   would not do any of that stuff. And I live in an office where every conference room has

01:14:24   this hydra of wires poking out of it, including dongle adapters for mini-display port, mini-DVI,

01:14:31   VGA, all of which are metal-wired, you know, like those anti-theft wires things. Not because

01:14:37   they think we're going to steal them, but because, like, when they were loose, people would take

01:14:41   them from one conference room to the other, and they would migrate around, and people would

01:14:44   would bring them back to their desks and write their names on them and Sharpie or whatever.

01:14:47   Dongles are terrible. Dongles are the devil, right? I want to get to the world where we

01:14:52   can stop with that and you're not going to get to the world where you can stop with that

01:14:56   unless you just get rid of the old port. So I agree with Apple's decision not to put legacy

01:15:01   ports on this. My only quibble is I would have thrown an SD card on this slot in there.

01:15:05   Everyone probably has their own quibble. They would say HDMI, but for all the other ones

01:15:08   like, "Oh, I wish I had an HDMI port. Dongles are annoying." Eventually, eventually someday,

01:15:12   Maybe, possibly, I don't know, maybe I'm foolish to think this, eventually all of the high-end

01:15:17   peripherals should have a little tiny connector on them.

01:15:21   Like I mean, we've been fighting against VGA for how many decades now?

01:15:24   And it's still out there, but I feel like now if you buy like a projector for business,

01:15:29   maybe they all still come with VGA, but I feel like now the tide is turning a little

01:15:33   bit to say, "All right, let's not have a VGA connector.

01:15:36   Let's let the default connector be at least DVI or something, or maybe DisplayPort, or

01:15:41   Maybe mini DisplayPort.

01:15:42   I want to herd us towards better standards.

01:15:45   I'm using hand motions here and knocking things on my desk.

01:15:47   I want to herd us towards better standards.

01:15:50   And I want Apple to help that along

01:15:53   by purging legacy ports.

01:15:55   So I'm actually mostly on Casey's side of this.

01:15:57   And by the way, for this specific computer,

01:15:58   for the 16 gig things, I just want to say,

01:16:00   I think if Apple could have put 32 gigs in there

01:16:03   with the particular Intel chipset, they would have.

01:16:05   I don't think they're withholding it out of Spyder

01:16:07   because they don't think people need it.

01:16:09   It's just that, as Marco said,

01:16:11   totally dedicated to this thin and light thing and 16 is all they could fit. If they could

01:16:15   have fit 32 they would have offered it and charged us eight bajillion dollars for it

01:16:18   like they usually do. So I have some faith that in 2018 when whatever the follow-up is

01:16:26   Coffee Lake, which is apparently going to be the next available Intel CPU with the good embedded

01:16:33   GPU that can support 32 gigs of RAM with the good chipset. So 2018 or 2019 Coffee Lake, then we will

01:16:40   get our 32 gig laptop and not before then.

01:16:43   And that may be a long, frustrating wait,

01:16:45   but for this specific machine at this point in time,

01:16:48   16 gigs RAM, disappointing, but I can choke it down.

01:16:52   And USB-C along the side, I'm pretty much okay with.

01:16:57   Would have liked an SD card slot,

01:16:58   but I am, I gotta say, I'm mostly on Casey's side with this.

01:17:01   And in fact, you mentioned the Band-Aid thing.

01:17:03   I think it's exactly what I mentioned

01:17:04   when I was talking about this in Slack,

01:17:05   like, you know, earlier in the week,

01:17:08   that, you know, rip the Band-Aid off.

01:17:09   And of course, again, my complaint is,

01:17:12   if you're gonna rip the band-aid off,

01:17:13   you can't do it by changing just one thing

01:17:14   and keep selling the freaking MacBook Air forever.

01:17:16   So I'm still angry at Apple, but not about this machine,

01:17:19   about all the other machines.

01:17:21   - Well, and I think that's the thing is,

01:17:24   I'm not the first person who have said this,

01:17:25   but I wonder if some of the whining and moaning

01:17:29   about these computers is less about these computers

01:17:33   and more about feeling boxed.

01:17:36   So let's suppose I'm a professional photographer

01:17:39   and I want to have this machine in the field that can do, I don't know, whatever professional

01:17:47   phototographer people do, like plug in SD cards and do computationally difficult things,

01:17:53   or have a bazillion pictures open at once, which somehow necessitates 32 gigs of RAM.

01:18:00   If this isn't for you, well, there's no real Mac Pro option.

01:18:03   The iMac is below me because I'm a professional.

01:18:06   So what options are left?

01:18:08   And I think if Apple had simultaneously released or even made some amount of mention of, "Hey,

01:18:18   here's some other device, be it a desktop or a super-crazy laptop that's really terrible,

01:18:24   the professionals would like it," or some other thing, then maybe we wouldn't be so

01:18:29   desperate.

01:18:30   But because we're all in the middle of the ocean and paddling and trying to stay above

01:18:36   but our arms are getting tired and we're wondering if Apple really cares about us anymore, if that life vest will ever appear,

01:18:43   we're getting really, really antsy and really concerned over a computer that really isn't meant for us.

01:18:49   Like, Marco, you don't even use a laptop on a regular basis, yet here you are

01:18:53   fairly perturbed about this particular laptop.

01:18:57   And I think it's--

01:18:58   Well, I think because of what you're about to say, though, because like--

01:19:01   Because you have no options.

01:19:01   Yeah, I as a pro am worried that

01:19:05   that the things I use are going to move towards laptops.

01:19:09   And also, sometimes I do use a laptop.

01:19:12   Like when I go away for like a week at a time,

01:19:15   a few times a year, where I really do use that

01:19:18   heavily during that time.

01:19:21   So I don't use a laptop frequently,

01:19:24   but when I do use it, I use it heavily.

01:19:26   So I am a pro user when I use my laptops, no question.

01:19:29   - So I think Andrew Cunningham at Ars Technica

01:19:32   had a good take on this, his intro to the review

01:19:34   the only review hardware that people have, which is the MacBook escape, started by saying

01:19:38   that Mac users have been frustrated with Apple lately, and the whole thing of the Mac not

01:19:43   getting updated as much and so on and so forth.

01:19:45   And so the second paragraph is, "The new MacBook Pros released for the record a year

01:19:49   and a half after the 2015 models, which were in some cases changed very little from the

01:19:52   2014 and 2013 models, have been birthed into this era of frustration."

01:19:57   That is the key thing.

01:19:58   That's why you were just getting it, Casey.

01:20:00   It's not so much that I think people are particularly mad at these models, or everyone

01:20:03   quibbles about what ports they have and the pricing and the 16 gigs and stuff like that,

01:20:08   but because they enter—the world that they're entering is the world in which all of the

01:20:12   most ardent Mac fans are frustrated with the Mac line.

01:20:16   And as good as these may be, though the rest of the line is still just sitting there, especially

01:20:21   in salt and leaks continuing to be sold, including the Air, even after this supposed possible

01:20:26   Air replacement, that's the world these are coming into.

01:20:28   So I think you're right that a lot of the anger related to this event is not about the

01:20:33   computers that were released into it is that it's like if you're already angry and someone does

01:20:37   something kind of nice you can pick the nice thing that they did and say but I'm still angry about

01:20:42   that other crap and we are we're all still angry about other crap and the more logical thing is

01:20:46   like you said in any sort of situation you say well you know maybe you shouldn't get this or

01:20:51   say well what should I get like my options you know I feel it for the people who want

01:20:56   an inexpensive laptop computer it's like well Apple reduced these pro models but what if you

01:21:02   want to get a decent Mac for a low price. Welcome to USB-A land. Welcome to non-retina

01:21:08   screen. Like you're going back in time to buy a computer that is really super old and

01:21:13   is way crappier. So it's really easy to be frustrated with the Mac line and Apple's treatment

01:21:20   of it, even if you like the particular machines that they released. And if you're a super

01:21:25   picky pro and then you look at the machines they did release and you say, "Well, I have

01:21:28   quibbles with those as well, it just adds up to a very negative reaction.

01:21:31   I think I put something in the show notes of someone tweeting about this.

01:21:35   This is Steve Frank, but it's echoing what you said.

01:21:39   "The level of pushback for macro pro event is staggering.

01:21:41   I sure hope someone at Apple who can make a difference is paying attention."

01:21:44   I agree that right or wrong, you can say all these people are whining or complaining or

01:21:48   they don't have a reason or whatever.

01:21:50   It is a really weird vibe, a pretty unprecedented vibe in the modern Apple era.

01:21:56   for Apple to have a major announcement of products

01:21:59   and for the reaction from the most ardent fans,

01:22:01   the people who are watching the live stream,

01:22:03   the people who knew there would be an event at all,

01:22:05   the people who read tech sites about the event,

01:22:08   to have a vocal portion of that.

01:22:10   You don't have to say it's all of them,

01:22:11   not even gonna say it's the majority,

01:22:12   but definitely a vocal portion of that,

01:22:14   their reaction to the event to be like anger,

01:22:16   like Apple did something wrong,

01:22:18   like maybe we shouldn't have released anything.

01:22:19   People are super angry at us now.

01:22:21   Like before at least they were just anticipating,

01:22:23   like, well, wait and see, wait and see,

01:22:24   but now they're like angry at us.

01:22:26   This used to happen by the way, all the time,

01:22:28   before the Jobs 2 era.

01:22:29   Anytime Apple announced anything, pretty much in the 90s,

01:22:33   everyone, all the Mac fans would get angry at Apple.

01:22:35   Like this was the vibe for pretty much the, you know,

01:22:39   most of my childhood and young adulthood with Apple was,

01:22:44   we were all angry at Apple for not winning the Mac PC wars.

01:22:48   We're all angry at Apple for allowing Microsoft to dominate

01:22:52   and all the dumb things that they did

01:22:53   that we think they should have done differently,

01:22:54   which would have solved this problem, whatever.

01:22:56   And anytime they announced anything,

01:22:58   we were angry about it,

01:22:59   because we knew they needed a new operating system,

01:23:01   and they'd announce the new operating system strategy,

01:23:03   and we'd say, "This sucks, this operating system sucks.

01:23:05   "What are you doing?"

01:23:06   When they announced Mac OS X, everyone was super angry.

01:23:08   "I don't want a terminal, I don't want a command line."

01:23:09   Being angry at Apple used to be the vibe.

01:23:11   But then after Jobs turned it around,

01:23:14   every time there was an Apple event,

01:23:16   we would wait like it's Christmas morning,

01:23:17   and be like, "Oh, goody Apple things!"

01:23:19   And we'd talk about them and pick them or whatever,

01:23:20   but we were all excited by it.

01:23:21   And now this is like the first turn back towards the dark side of Apple announces a bunch of

01:23:26   stuff and we're all just angry about the Mac stuff.

01:23:30   Even the iPhone stuff is a little bit backlash.

01:23:31   I think the iPhone stuff, people are kind of angry about that.

01:23:34   That's more like when you're really super successful, people want to tear you down,

01:23:37   right?

01:23:38   But the Mac stuff is like neglect and frustration and then you release a bunch of products that

01:23:45   leave a bunch of the...

01:23:47   Don't address a whole bunch of the frustration.

01:23:49   And the part of the frustration they do address, address it in a way that is not satisfactory

01:23:54   to your most cranky users.

01:23:56   And so that I think explains this whole big vibe.

01:24:00   And should Apple do something about it?

01:24:02   Yeah, they should update the rest of their freaking Macs.

01:24:03   Like that would go a long way to calming people down.

01:24:08   But if I was Apple, I would mostly stay the course on the USB thing.

01:24:13   If I had to design the next version of this, and by the way, there are already rumors like,

01:24:16   "Hey, guess what?

01:24:17   super secret totally made up rumor. Next year Apple's gonna have MacBook Pros that are cheaper

01:24:23   and with faster CPU's and 32 gigs of RAM. Whatever. And you know again as Andrew Kernighan

01:24:28   pointed out to the person who pointed it like what are they gonna put in it that's gonna

01:24:31   let them do 32 gigs of RAM. They have to wait for a coffee lake or they have to do something

01:24:34   radically different. Anyway the next revision of this thing if they put an SD card slot

01:24:39   on it just that one change even for the people who don't use SD card slots ever I think they'd

01:24:44   be like, "alright, now Apple, I see that you have seen my concern. You have not actually

01:24:49   addressed it because I want an HDMI port, but at least now I see that you are taking

01:24:54   our feedback into consideration and are correcting your course by making the iPhone 6s less bendy

01:25:00   and slightly more grippy. By making the iPhone 7 grippier still and waterproof. By not making

01:25:10   it glass front and back after the 4 series because that broke a lot.

01:25:15   Like that's all we want to see at this point for the pros specifically is maybe some slight

01:25:18   reconsideration of the next iteration of this, but again their hands are tied because of

01:25:22   Intel's things, so I don't think we're going to see a lot of corrections there.

01:25:27   Just need to update the rest of the line.

01:25:29   Force the rest of the world into the USB-C utopia that we were all promised.

01:25:34   Get us away from those giant USB-A connectors.

01:25:36   I hope we start looking at them like I look at SCSI ports now.

01:25:40   "Do you believe we actually have these things and plug stuff into it? They're huge. What

01:25:43   is it, an air intake? I don't get it."

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01:27:47   - Why don't we have a touch bar external keyboard?

01:27:52   Yes, we briefly talked about this last episode.

01:27:55   - Not so briefly, perhaps.

01:27:57   - Well, either way.

01:27:58   I want one, something fierce, but we don't have one yet.

01:28:03   Is it coming, John?

01:28:04   I had one additional thought about that

01:28:06   that I wanted to throw in here.

01:28:09   Wait, you're still in follow-up?

01:28:10   Yeah.

01:28:11   Well, I think we've long since left follow-up, to be honest.

01:28:14   No, we are still-- these are all follow-ups.

01:28:16   These are all follow-ups from the things

01:28:17   we were talking about last show with new--

01:28:19   because it's not like they announced any new MacBook Pros.

01:28:21   We're still just talking about those last ones.

01:28:23   Anyway.

01:28:23   Oh, my god.

01:28:24   For the keyboard with the touch bar,

01:28:26   I thought of a reason that, once again, I'm

01:28:28   disappointed that no listeners tweeted at me or emailed us,

01:28:32   that the touch bar on the keyboard,

01:28:35   not that this changes the odds of Apple doing it,

01:28:38   but it makes me think that it may not be as great

01:28:41   an idea as we think.

01:28:42   And again, I'm saying this,

01:28:43   having never actually touched one of these

01:28:45   because they're not out yet, right?

01:28:46   Although I did try to order mine at work

01:28:48   and they told me, sorry,

01:28:49   we're not getting a new Mac until February.

01:28:50   So yep, corporate IT, yay.

01:28:53   All right, anyway, but yeah, the touch bar on the laptops,

01:28:59   The whole idea about this is a touch surface that's not the screen, so you're not reaching

01:29:04   up touch screen, it's down by the keyboard, it's on the level of the keyboard, so it's

01:29:06   the rest of your stuff.

01:29:07   But the touch bar is also a screen, and because the things on it change, you will have to

01:29:12   look at it to know, like, in this app, how is the context changed, or to find the control

01:29:18   that you want, because you can't feel for anything on it, and especially if there is

01:29:22   something visual like a display there of a timeline or a scrubber or whatever, you will

01:29:26   have to actually look at it. And on a laptop that mostly works out because your line of

01:29:33   sight and focal distance on the laptop screen, which is when you're using the touch bar,

01:29:38   is not that far off from the touch bar itself. Screen, touch bar, screen, touch bar, not

01:29:44   a big change in focal distance. If you're using a desktop and your keyboard is in the

01:29:50   right position ergonomically and so is your screen, pretty big difference in focal distance

01:29:55   and most people who are touch typists don't look at the keyboard ever on a desktop because

01:30:00   why would you?

01:30:01   You can feel where everything is, there's no reason to look down there, and there's

01:30:04   a totally different focal distance.

01:30:06   So experience-wise, using the touch bar not on a laptop may not be as nice an experience

01:30:12   as using it on a thing where the screen is kind of like a heads-up display where you

01:30:18   don't have to look away from the road as much to look at your thing.

01:30:21   So I don't know if Apple would ever trot that out as a reason that they don't produce a

01:30:24   a keyboard with this thing on it,

01:30:26   but I think it may actually be a semi-legit reason

01:30:29   why the touch bar is purely an animal of the laptop

01:30:33   and is not ever a thing that is destined

01:30:34   to be on desktop computers.

01:30:36   - I mean, one thing we don't know yet is like,

01:30:39   is it really meant to be like a continuous input device

01:30:43   the way a trackpad or a keyboard is,

01:30:45   or is it really meant to be what the function row was before

01:30:49   which is basically occasional utility functions, right?

01:30:52   We don't really know, like,

01:30:53   Obviously Apple has a lot of different demos and stuff

01:30:55   that they have in their apps,

01:30:56   but we don't really know yet how it will be used in practice.

01:30:58   Like will it actually become a really primary

01:31:02   pointing device or input device,

01:31:04   or whether it will just become like a little utility thing.

01:31:06   If it is the latter,

01:31:07   if it is just like a little occasional utility thing,

01:31:10   it's a lot less important to have it on the desktop.

01:31:13   It might never come and there won't be strong demand for it,

01:31:17   and so it might not be worth anything like that.

01:31:19   But if it does come to the desktop somehow,

01:31:22   Again, if it is one of those occasional reference things,

01:31:26   then it's okay to change your eye focal distance

01:31:29   to go to it because you're not using it constantly.

01:31:32   Whereas if it's actually meant to be like

01:31:35   some of the ways it was demoed with being things

01:31:37   like a jog wheel in Final Cut Pro and stuff like that,

01:31:40   that's like a constant frequent type of input device there.

01:31:44   If that's the kind of things that ends up being

01:31:46   very useful for, and we don't really know,

01:31:48   I mean, whatever Apple says does not matter,

01:31:51   what matters is what ends up being useful in practice,

01:31:53   right, and we don't know that yet.

01:31:54   Nobody even has these to review yet,

01:31:56   so we don't even know yet, but if that happens,

01:31:59   then I think you have a bigger problem

01:32:00   with frequently changing your focal distance

01:32:03   and everything up and down from the screen

01:32:04   to the keyboard and everything.

01:32:06   Although, honestly, I was using my laptop yesterday

01:32:10   or the day before, using it for a while,

01:32:12   and I kinda was playing, I was kinda like pretending

01:32:15   that I had a touch bar, trying to figure out

01:32:16   how does it feel to reach up here for scrolling

01:32:20   or jogging or editing operations and everything,

01:32:23   it's kinda too high up for me.

01:32:25   Like for ergonomics, I'm a little concerned

01:32:29   that it might not feel very good

01:32:31   to reach all the way up there frequently

01:32:34   for lots of interaction with my hands.

01:32:36   Like I feel like it might be a little uncomfortable

01:32:39   and a little ergonomically weird.

01:32:40   Like if it's gonna be one of those

01:32:42   like continuous input devices,

01:32:44   I feel like that's kind of the wrong spot for it.

01:32:47   And I recognize that the right spot for that kind of thing

01:32:50   would probably be between the space bar and the track pad,

01:32:53   but I also recognize, practically speaking,

01:32:55   that's really hard to design around

01:32:58   and probably bad for accidental input and everything.

01:33:01   So that's probably why it's not there.

01:33:03   But the way it is up top there,

01:33:06   I do wonder a little bit about the ergonomics

01:33:08   of using it very often.

01:33:09   - Well, like I said last week on the show,

01:33:11   and as I tweeted in, as I tried to jam into a series

01:33:14   of three tweets that I initially screwed up

01:33:16   and how to delete and re-chain together.

01:33:18   Boy, we're really waiting for that edit this tweet function

01:33:20   on Twitter any day now.

01:33:21   Anyway.

01:33:22   - Don't hold your breath.

01:33:23   - The time lapse, the like, imagining what has happened

01:33:27   to Apple keyboards over the years,

01:33:29   of starting on the Mac portable,

01:33:30   you just watch the thing squish into the thing.

01:33:33   It just gets flatter and flatter and flatter,

01:33:35   and the keys get so flat, and soon they're not even keys,

01:33:37   and soon they're like flush with the surface of the thing,

01:33:39   and they're just going down, down, down,

01:33:40   and all of a sudden a screen appears on the top of it,

01:33:42   and then you just keep extrapolating that out.

01:33:44   Why is the screen at the top?

01:33:45   Why isn't the screen at the bottom?

01:33:47   Why isn't the whole thing screen?

01:33:48   Why isn't it a big force touch surface?

01:33:50   Why, you know, and that gets into all the millennials

01:33:51   typing on the screens and the whole big thing.

01:33:53   But seriously, if you time-lapse that,

01:33:55   it's comical to like, to just look at it,

01:33:59   it's like, you don't really realize how comical it is

01:34:02   until, I mean, you don't need the Mac portable to do it,

01:34:03   right, but just look at an old laptop keyboard,

01:34:06   and you're like, this is what the keys used to be like?

01:34:08   And in some respects, you're like, wow, look at this travel,

01:34:11   it's so luxurious.

01:34:12   But in other respects, you're like,

01:34:13   look at all this wasted space and air to try to ape like the keyboard which is aping the

01:34:18   typewriter which is just like this whole big chain of things and then do things do look

01:34:22   more around but then like you start shrinking them so much and once you start adding screens

01:34:24   like what are we even doing here again i talked about in the last show it just seems like

01:34:28   a straightforward extrapolation to say that that surface doesn't need to be keyboard at

01:34:34   a certain point it's better to have a bunch of reconfigurable images on a on a taptic

01:34:38   screen with force and blah blah blah and that's where everyone says well you can't extrapolate

01:34:42   that's ridiculous, it's like a slippery slope thing, you have to leave the keys there,

01:34:45   but at a certain point, do you? How unkey-like do they have to make the keys before you don't

01:34:51   notice any difference? Like, oh they have to move, it's really important for touch typing

01:34:55   and this and that and the other thing, like, we're all die and the kids that replace us

01:34:58   might not have these same ties to typing because they never learned to type or anything, like

01:35:02   it might take a long time to happen, but that seems to be where it's going. And the reason

01:35:05   that would work, and gets into what Marco was saying about what part is the most comfortable

01:35:10   to use, the reason that would work on a laptop form factor specifically where you have to

01:35:14   have the screen and the keyboard connected together because they fold and it's all part

01:35:18   of the whole portability thing, is because the focal distance is not that different.

01:35:23   Because looking down at the keyboard, any part of the keyboard on a laptop, is not that

01:35:27   far from looking down at the screen because they're attached to each other.

01:35:31   And so if you did have some kind of UI on the flat part, it is still more comfortable.

01:35:35   It still gets back to what everyone at Apple has always said and we all believe, you know,

01:35:40   You don't want to touch the big vertical screen, but there is a horizontal surface that you can touch,

01:35:44   and you can type on it and use a trackpad on it, and now you can use a touch screen on it.

01:35:48   It's not making a "touch screen Mac" quote-unquote, and it's not like, you know,

01:35:51   people keep thinking of the thing, you're just saying it's going to turn into a bigger iPad,

01:35:54   which maybe it will, and again we will talk about the Microsoft Surface Studio eventually,

01:35:57   I promise I won't let it go off the list. But having a horizontal surface that you use your

01:36:03   fingers on that is ergonomically viable, we do it all the time, we call it a keyboard and a trackpad

01:36:08   and now a touch bar, it is not ridiculous to think that the parts of that horizontal

01:36:15   surface that we touch that are now fixed in hardware could one day be reconfigurable in

01:36:19   the same way as a touch bar. If the touch bar is in any way successful as an experiment,

01:36:24   as a feature that we put out into the world and people try and they can see how it works,

01:36:27   if it is in any way successful, even if people say, just like Marco, it's fine, but they don't

01:36:31   like reaching up there, that doesn't mean the concept is bad, that just means they didn't do it

01:36:35   enough, right? So I think that that time lapse and that extrapolation clearly leads in one direction,

01:36:41   one direction only, and that direction is not a move from Apple's insistence on that people

01:36:45   that don't want to touch vertical screens. Again, buy a touchscreen Windows laptop and be poking at

01:36:49   the screen. Some people like it, and some people have reported like, you get one of those, you

01:36:52   instinctively start touching laptop screens, which by the way is terrible, you should never touch

01:36:55   your laptop screen. That's a separate issue. That's a personal issue. Appreed. Right. Apple's

01:37:02   thing is horizontal surface with touch. So I think this is a place where we could go,

01:37:07   where I would be excited to see them go, because at least then you start to reap the advantages

01:37:12   that come along with having horrible keyboards, right? Like right now we're like, we're going

01:37:17   to keep making your keyboards smaller and smaller and flatter and flatter and less and

01:37:20   less like a keyboard that you like, but you're not going to get over the big win that you

01:37:25   get by saying, "Guess what? It's all screen and you can do amazing things for this." Because

01:37:28   imagine the interface that you could do, Margo, with like your podcast editing suite where

01:37:33   you weren't limited to just a reconfigurable touch bar and weren't limited to a totally

01:37:36   screenless trackpad but could actually draw controls down there for editing on a laptop.

01:37:43   That could be amazing, right? That could be pretty amazing, but you definitely wouldn't

01:37:46   like to have your kind of like keyboard so you may just have to wait until you die and

01:37:50   Adam grows up and he can make that podcast up.

01:37:53   (upbeat music)

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01:40:21   (upbeat music)

01:40:24   - So we forgot to talk about earlier

01:40:26   when you were talking about the new MacBook Pro.

01:40:31   How excited are you for yours to arrive?

01:40:33   Because you ordered the MacBook Escape.

01:40:35   - I did order the MacBook Escape,

01:40:37   and I canceled it before it shipped because--

01:40:39   - Insert the Marcos Waffling jingle right here.

01:40:41   - Yep, yay, Mark goes waffling.

01:40:44   Maybe that's the jingle.

01:40:46   (laughs)

01:40:48   Yeah, basically, I still might get one.

01:40:50   I haven't decided for sure I'm not getting one,

01:40:53   but as I looked at more of the specs

01:40:55   and as I thought about it more

01:40:57   and as some of the early reviews started coming in,

01:40:59   I figured, you know what?

01:41:00   I think I wanna wait until I can actually

01:41:03   try the keyboard in a store.

01:41:04   I can actually see it next to the 15 inch

01:41:08   and really decide, and hopefully try

01:41:10   a touch bar in his door too, and really decide then.

01:41:12   Because my laptop is fine, I'm not in a huge rush.

01:41:15   The only thing that really drives me nuts about it

01:41:17   is that I'm always out of space.

01:41:19   Because I got the base model, which is awesome

01:41:21   in every single way, except the hard drive space

01:41:23   is not nearly enough, so I'm always out of space on it,

01:41:25   and it's a huge pain, and it is a big problem

01:41:28   for how I work, but if I just KC it up,

01:41:30   I can just burn an external drive wherever I go,

01:41:33   and plug it in, and I'll have my bag of dongles

01:41:39   and wrap it all up in my Tom Bihn pouch or whatever it is.

01:41:42   - Mm-hmm.

01:41:43   - And I'll go full Casey and just plug in a bunch of crap

01:41:48   to my laptop and so I will solve the problem that way

01:41:53   until I can figure out what I want to do.

01:41:54   Because honestly, I mean, I didn't feel good

01:41:59   about how much it cost.

01:42:00   Like the configuration I got was the i7 CPU,

01:42:03   so the highest CPU and 16 gigs and 512 SSD.

01:42:08   and that put it up to $2,200.

01:42:13   And I'm like, you know, I don't feel good

01:42:15   about spending that much on a 13 inch,

01:42:17   even a nicely specced one.

01:42:18   Like that doesn't feel great to me.

01:42:21   And I realized, you know, I could do that,

01:42:24   but I'm not even sure, like, I once again

01:42:27   had 15 inch regret, or like, I was,

01:42:31   like the fear of 15 inch regret, basically.

01:42:33   Like, as I mentioned before, like I have sometimes

01:42:36   regretted not getting the 15 inch,

01:42:37   and when I've had the 15 inch,

01:42:38   I've always been like, man, I'm so glad I have 15 inch.

01:42:40   So I'm like, you know, I should probably wait

01:42:42   and actually try the new one first.

01:42:44   So that's basically it.

01:42:45   I'm gonna wait until the new ones are actually in stores

01:42:47   and until people have reviews of all the different

01:42:50   configurations and real world battery tests.

01:42:53   Like the reviews of the MacBook Escape,

01:42:56   I guess the embargo was lifted today.

01:42:58   So a whole bunch of the reviews came out,

01:42:59   like the aforementioned ours one.

01:43:01   And ours did a battery test that showed,

01:43:04   interestingly, basically, that the low demand

01:43:08   battery life is ridiculous.

01:43:10   I think it was like 16 hours or something.

01:43:12   It's ridiculously good.

01:43:13   But if you actually stress the processor, it's two hours.

01:43:17   (laughs)

01:43:18   And so it's like, well, that's actually,

01:43:21   that's very similar to the current ones.

01:43:22   Like, the current ones, if you really stretched it,

01:43:25   if you turned the brightness down,

01:43:26   if you really are gentle on it,

01:43:27   on my 15 inch now, I can get 10 hours.

01:43:30   But not if I'm doing it.

01:43:31   If I'm like using Xcode or encoding an MP3

01:43:34   or doing audio editing, forget it.

01:43:36   then I'm closer to five hours maybe.

01:43:39   And then if I'm actually maxing out all the CPU cores,

01:43:41   like for instance, doing a big Lightroom import,

01:43:44   as I discovered this summer, two hours.

01:43:46   So this actually isn't that different.

01:43:50   So basically, I wonder what the real world battery life

01:43:55   will be of the other two models.

01:43:57   I'm actually now quite concerned.

01:43:58   Because once I saw, I canceled this back on,

01:44:01   I think Sunday or whatever,

01:44:02   when I saw the battery test today,

01:44:04   I'm actually thinking, man, I bet the battery life

01:44:07   under moderate to heavy loads of the Touch Bar models

01:44:11   is probably gonna be terrible, but we will see.

01:44:14   I mean, two hours is already pretty terrible,

01:44:16   and that's like the low power one with the biggest battery.

01:44:18   So that's a little scary.

01:44:21   I also thought, you know what,

01:44:23   nothing's really wrong with my current one

01:44:25   besides having no storage space.

01:44:27   So maybe I just upgrade it and deal with it

01:44:31   and live with it for a long time

01:44:32   because it has a keyboard I like

01:44:34   It has a trackpad I like.

01:44:35   It has lots of ports that come in handy.

01:44:38   It has the SD card reader that I use frequently.

01:44:39   So, you know, I'll probably just keep it for a while

01:44:42   because there's only no pressing need for me to upgrade

01:44:45   other than that stupid storage issue

01:44:47   and just wanting the newest thing.

01:44:49   - Fair enough.

01:44:50   - Who knows, next week I could have ordered a 15 inch.

01:44:52   Who knows?

01:44:53   - Very well could be.

01:44:55   And Jon, you've been waffling apparently.

01:44:57   - Yeah, this was just another misplaced item

01:45:00   in the things we already talked about.

01:45:01   It was about the display and the iMac versus the Mac Pro,

01:45:03   but Marco always screws up the order, so there you go.

01:45:06   That was my waffling.

01:45:07   - You're welcome.

01:45:07   - Although not really, because I have to say,

01:45:09   like Marco's waffling when I introduced

01:45:11   the concept of this segment way back when.

01:45:15   I said, you know, it's really, you know,

01:45:16   it's nice to make fun of,

01:45:17   but it's really changing your position

01:45:19   when information changes.

01:45:20   But the true waffling is Marco acting impulsively,

01:45:25   because no new information has come to light.

01:45:26   He had just not fully assessed his feelings

01:45:29   until after he had placed the order, right?

01:45:31   So that's waffling in the true sense,

01:45:32   where a more cautious approach might have been to hash out these internal things before

01:45:38   placing an order. He's just lucky that Apple doesn't ship things very quickly because he

01:45:41   could be having to deal with a return here, where, you know, again, no new information

01:45:45   has come to light as in really Marco's internal landscape that has changed in the past two

01:45:50   days or whatever.

01:45:51   Well, and lots of people do that. Lots of people will order things and then they don't

01:45:55   like them because you return them. And I've only done that once with the MacBook One.

01:45:58   I really don't like doing that. And I really didn't like…

01:46:00   Usually you sell them like the Mac Pro, I know.

01:46:03   - Yeah, well, yeah, like, yeah,

01:46:04   returning stuff, like, you know, I feel bad.

01:46:07   Like, I know it's there for a reason.

01:46:09   I know that Apple probably doesn't really care

01:46:11   if I return it, but I feel bad,

01:46:13   'cause I know that, like, I'm invoking this clause

01:46:16   that is not meant to be invoked frequently.

01:46:18   There's a cost to it.

01:46:19   People are bearing costs to this.

01:46:20   It's not, it isn't meant to be like a free home trial.

01:46:23   So I try not to return things if necessary,

01:46:28   or if possible, rather.

01:46:29   enough. Why is there no true tone display in the MacBook Pros? What's up with that?

01:46:34   Two theories. One is just like they didn't get around to it because this is a really

01:46:38   old design of a machine, you know, like all the lead times and this could have been released

01:46:42   sooner and blah blah blah. Like that's the obvious explanation. Like it's just not there

01:46:45   because timelines. And even though this Mac is coming out now, we all know that they have

01:46:50   been delayed because we were waiting for Intel CPUs and also other crap. So that the other

01:46:54   Another possibility that occurred to me is maybe it's, I guess that's explained why the

01:47:00   feature isn't there, but why even if it was there, why some people might not enable it.

01:47:05   For people doing color sensitive work on this screen, and I guess there are those out there,

01:47:10   because it does have the P3 screen and all those stuff, wouldn't you kind of not want

01:47:15   your screen to change color profile based on the ambient light to try to get a more

01:47:22   consistent color experience? I don't know. I don't know enough about our, you know, maybe ours would

01:47:27   want that because I was like, look, if you don't change it, it's going to look weird when you're

01:47:30   in, you know, sodium lights versus fluorescence versus whatever. Not that they're going to be

01:47:34   doing their work on the side of the road under sodium lights. But anyway, maybe they wouldn't

01:47:38   want it to change, but I can also imagine them saying, I just want to calibrate my screen and

01:47:42   have it the way I want it and not have it worry about whether the studio lights are on or off and

01:47:48   having it change the color, right?

01:47:49   So maybe there's just not a lot of demand for it,

01:47:52   is what I'm saying.

01:47:54   - Well, but I mean, you can't whip out pro use cases

01:47:58   selectively to justify certain things, which Apple does.

01:48:01   Like, if you say people don't really want it on Macs

01:48:05   'cause they want their color accuracy,

01:48:06   well, don't people want that on iPads too?

01:48:09   Like, but it's on the iPad, so like--

01:48:10   - Yeah, I don't think people are doing

01:48:12   as much pro work on that, but what I was saying is,

01:48:14   like I said, it's not a reason not to include it,

01:48:16   But it's a reason that even if they did include it, I think some people might have wanted to turn it off

01:48:19   But you can do you can do in the iPads too, right? It's just a toggle switch

01:48:23   I guess that's what I'm saying

01:48:24   So I think actually if and when they do eventually introduce it I can imagine people saying oh, that's nice

01:48:28   but I'm never gonna use that because I do professional color work on it and

01:48:32   You know and I have it on my iPad Pro

01:48:35   I have it enabled and I have to say it is subtle enough that I don't notice it

01:48:39   Unlike the stupid thing that makes your your iPad look like someone peed on it when the Sun Goes Down

01:48:44   Well, I don't notice the true tone as it is subtle enough and I know the lighting in my house is totally like

01:48:49   You know very warm compared to what uh lighting could be another situation like I don't know

01:48:54   It's the truth on so it's it's I think it's great for you know, plain consumer uses of it

01:48:58   but

01:49:00   That's in other words

01:49:01   That's why I think you don't hear people like people are complaining about the ports and about 32 gigs of RAM

01:49:07   I haven't heard any professional users complain that there's no true tone

01:49:11   - Yeah, well, where it is nice to have, though,

01:49:14   is, and Phil mentioned this when he was doing

01:49:17   the presentation of the iPad Pro, announcing True Tone,

01:49:20   he said something on the lines of,

01:49:21   "Once you have it, you don't wanna go back."

01:49:24   Because once you have displays in your life

01:49:28   that are adjusting color temperature throughout the day,

01:49:31   for whatever reason, whether it's reacting

01:49:32   to the room lighting, or whether it's doing something

01:49:35   like night shift slash whatever, flux.

01:49:38   - P-screen is what you're thinking of.

01:49:39   - Yes, once you have one of the screens

01:49:42   in your life doing that, it's really weird and jarring

01:49:45   to have other ones that aren't.

01:49:46   And so if you are getting into the lifestyle

01:49:49   of Flux/P-screen/Night Shift and True Tone,

01:49:52   which are, I think, really two different degrees

01:49:55   of a similar kind of thing,

01:49:56   you want all your screens to have it.

01:49:58   - I think that's only true of the Night Shift things.

01:50:01   Because I have, I do, I use,

01:50:03   every day I use both my iPad and at least one other screen

01:50:07   that's not color adjusted.

01:50:08   So true tone, I think, is subtle enough,

01:50:10   that's what I was saying, that you don't notice it.

01:50:11   You just think it's the same.

01:50:12   'Cause I'm using them in different rooms,

01:50:15   so I don't have them side by side.

01:50:16   Perhaps if I had them side by side,

01:50:17   I would notice the difference.

01:50:18   But when I'm using my iPad, usually in my bedroom,

01:50:21   and then I come down and use the 5K iMac,

01:50:23   I do not notice that they're different.

01:50:25   I think I would notice if it was night shift,

01:50:27   because again, that is super noticeable.

01:50:29   And you'd be like, "Oh, the screen is so blue,"

01:50:30   after sitting in front of your P yellow iMac screen.

01:50:33   (laughs)

01:50:35   - I mean, it is yellow, but I like it.

01:50:37   - It's probably a placebo, but it feels like

01:50:39   it's so much easier on my eyes.

01:50:40   - Make your computer look like it's broken.

01:50:41   - Pretty much.

01:50:42   - Back in my day, they'd be like,

01:50:43   "Is the green connector loose on the back of your monitor?

01:50:46   "Wiggle it a little bit."

01:50:48   - Hey, I still have component in my bedroom TV,

01:50:50   so I know what you're talking about.

01:50:52   The Mac startup chime is dead, and I don't care.

01:50:56   So anything else we wanna talk about?

01:50:58   - There's a bunch of asterisks on that, though.

01:50:59   Like, it's off by default, but you can enable it

01:51:02   with these NVRAM commands and, yeah.

01:51:04   - Yeah, we'll put a link in the show notes

01:51:05   to how you can enable it.

01:51:06   The other weird one, they're doing this weird stuff with power and opening the lid on the

01:51:11   MacBook Pros, which mostly is a good idea.

01:51:14   Like basically when you open the lid, the thing boots, which I think makes sense for

01:51:20   most people, because most people, like, why are you even opening it if you're not going

01:51:23   to turn it on?

01:51:24   But if you're an old person who's not used to that happening, you can turn it off with

01:51:29   another NVR and a half.

01:51:30   Same thing with the Star Up Chime.

01:51:31   And like, the Star Up Chime has been compared to the Happy Mac, which I don't know if you

01:51:34   You guys still had Macs back when the little Happy Mac appeared.

01:51:36   Did your first Macs have that?

01:51:38   No.

01:51:39   No?

01:51:40   So you would turn on the Mac, this is from the original Mac, and a little tiny pixel

01:51:42   art thing, Susan Kaya Pixel Art of the original Macintosh with a happy smiling face on it

01:51:46   would appear.

01:51:47   And that was a super important part of the original Macintosh experience, along with

01:51:52   the whole rest of the GUI and this funny thing called the mouse with the wire on it and everything

01:51:56   like that.

01:51:57   And it lasted for years.

01:51:58   Long after Macs didn't look like that anymore.

01:52:00   after Apple was no longer selling Macs like that, you'd buy a titanium power book and

01:52:07   you'd boot it and it would have that picture on it. And people must be thinking, "What

01:52:10   is that?" Like people who didn't know the original Mac, like, "It doesn't look like

01:52:13   this computer I'm in front of. Is it like a little square person? Is it a robot?" But

01:52:19   it was adorable and it was tradition and we liked it. And eventually Apple canned it and

01:52:23   said, "When you turn on our computers now, you don't see that. You just see this Apple

01:52:25   logo and you know and so we can have a separate debate about Apple's dedication

01:52:30   to whimsy and all sorts of other things when the Happy Mac went away it was sad

01:52:34   the startup chime going away same thing oh it's all the old traditions or

01:52:39   whatever I'm mostly okay with this because you know traditions have their

01:52:44   time the Happy Mac had its time and then its time was over and the startup chime

01:52:49   is I think a vestige of that same age and if anything it probably should have

01:52:53   gone at the same time. Because, and you know, when discussing this, you see all the people

01:52:57   who are super annoyed by the startup chime. It is kind of annoying and unexpected. It's

01:53:00   from a time when booting a computer was an event worthy of a sound. That is no longer

01:53:05   the case. Because we would, you know, first of all, you shouldn't be rebooting your computer,

01:53:08   just put it to sleep at night, right? And it's just not, it's not a thing that's done.

01:53:12   You're not rebooting it because it's crashing all the time, which is the other reason you

01:53:14   hear all the chimes back in the nineties in your office full of Macs, right? Because there

01:53:18   was no memory protection. One bad program would take it in the whole thing, usually

01:53:21   get an obi-hat product but but it's not like that's a vestige of a different age

01:53:25   and I think at this point it is more luxurious and more sophisticated to not

01:53:31   make a big boom here I am I'm turning on and yes there are reasons like oh well

01:53:35   that lets me know that it posted correctly and I'll hear the different

01:53:38   sounds for when I have bad RAM and it sounds like glasses breaking and there's

01:53:41   an argument in any way that is not enough whimsy in the Apple stuff

01:53:44   although I do think like I said dragging the little buttons down to the the touch

01:53:49   bar from the main screen is slightly whimsical and same thing with the little genie animations

01:53:54   and the poofs and all the other crap. A lot of which they've gotten rid of, I admit. But

01:53:58   anyway, I'm okay with the startup chime going away and if you really want it back you can

01:54:02   get it back. Opening the lid and booting your thing probably feels weird to us but I think

01:54:08   that's mostly what regular people expect. It also gets them out of the business of having

01:54:12   to find where to put the power button but then it makes it harder for people to figure

01:54:16   out, you know, the sort of hold down the power button for 10 seconds when there's no power

01:54:19   button.

01:54:20   That was a question, by the way, about touch bar.

01:54:21   When your touch bar computer freezes, how do you, like, hard reboot it?

01:54:25   >> I don't know.

01:54:26   How?

01:54:27   >> I'm sure.

01:54:28   I don't know.

01:54:29   I'm sure there's some combination of things you press, but it was much more obvious when

01:54:30   there was a key somewhere on there or a button or something like that that had the power

01:54:34   symbol on it that I think people are somewhat familiar with, and now it's going to be a

01:54:37   little bit trickier.

01:54:38   >> I believe you hold down the touch ID button and the volume down circle on the touch zone.

01:54:43   >> Yeah.

01:54:44   way to do it, but it is less obvious than, you know, Touch ID is the thing, but there's

01:54:50   no like little power symbol on it. Anyway, I'm okay with it, surprisingly, and I am

01:54:54   the oldest, crustiest Mac user ever.

01:54:56   Yeah, I am stunned that this is okay with you. I don't even know where to go from

01:55:01   here. I guess now that we're done with follow-up, we can start the show.

01:55:04   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Harry's, Casper, and Backblaze, and we will

01:55:08   see you next week.

01:55:13   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:55:17   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:55:20   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:55:23   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:55:28   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:55:31   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:55:34   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:55:39   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:55:48   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:55:52   Auntie Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:56:00   It's accidental (accidental)

01:56:03   They didn't mean to (accidental)

01:56:08   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:56:11   - I knew it was gonna be a total follow-up show,

01:56:15   but there was just so much more to talk about that event.

01:56:17   The event that changed the Mac world, sort of, maybe.

01:56:22   - Well, really what's changing the Mac world

01:56:25   is the slow neglect of the things they're not mentioning.

01:56:28   - That too.

01:56:29   - What changes the Mac world

01:56:30   is not going to be announced on stage.

01:56:32   It's gonna be just slowly trickled out

01:56:34   through press releases and controlled leaks.

01:56:37   Well, here's the thing about that, like all the crankiness from you Marco and also from

01:56:41   other people about like neglecting the Mac or whatever.

01:56:44   The thing that I find frustrating about it is it's so clear that Apple's messages, "We

01:56:50   care about the Mac."

01:56:51   Like they said it in so, like in uncertain terms.

01:56:54   Like Tim Cook said it, Phil Schull saying it in all the interviews.

01:56:57   Like they're not beating around the bush and trying to say, "Well, but we kind of do nice."

01:57:01   And they're like emphatic, like, "We care about the Mac.

01:57:04   The Mac is really important to us as a product."

01:57:06   It doesn't really matter what they say, it matters what they do.

01:57:08   But what it means is that the message Apple is trying to send is that they care about

01:57:12   the Mac.

01:57:13   And if that's the message they want to send, like if they...

01:57:15   Why would they send that message?

01:57:16   It's like they're not trying to trick us.

01:57:17   It's not a trap.

01:57:19   They want that to be the message.

01:57:22   And it's almost as if like, we can't do anything in the short term to really convince you.

01:57:26   So all we can really do is say, like they don't announce future products, they can't...

01:57:31   They're not going to come out and say, "Here's what we have in the pipeline for the Mac for

01:57:35   the next year.

01:57:36   we've neglected it.

01:57:37   That's not their thing, but they're totally saying,

01:57:39   "We care about the Mac."

01:57:41   So I think for everybody who says,

01:57:42   "Apple doesn't care about the Mac,"

01:57:44   you'd have to basically be saying that Apple

01:57:45   is lying to you to trick you.

01:57:47   Or you can say they think they care about the Mac,

01:57:51   but they don't know how to care for the Mac anymore.

01:57:53   They don't know what the Mac needs.

01:57:55   The Mac needs to go elsewhere, right?

01:57:58   But they're totally all on the same page.

01:58:00   The Mac is very important to Apple.

01:58:02   It's super important.

01:58:03   They need to have the history.

01:58:05   going forward we care about it, and I really hope that is really true from top to bottom, because

01:58:09   that gives me some notion that they will actually fix things with their actions later, because it

01:58:16   would be really weird for them to emphatically say they care about the Mac as a reaction to all

01:58:21   of us thinking that they don't, and then just never do anything different. Like, that would be super

01:58:25   weird to me. So, do you think that there's hope in sight? I mean, given that they're saying so

01:58:31   so strongly, oh we care, we care, we care.

01:58:33   But earlier this episode you're thinking,

01:58:35   oh there's not gonna be a new Mac Pro, so how do you feel?

01:58:37   - Well, Mac Pro is not the Mac.

01:58:40   Their vision of the Mac could be all laptops, right?

01:58:42   But all that would mean is like,

01:58:43   well then at least frickin' update your laptops more often.

01:58:45   And I'm hoping all of the angry people

01:58:49   are getting the message through.

01:58:50   If I had my way, I would say, say someone says,

01:58:54   you can't have desktop Macs anymore, fine, whatever.

01:58:56   The Mac is just gonna be the laptops.

01:58:58   I would say, get rid of all the old models,

01:59:00   stop doing the thing where you keep them around for a long time, update your whole line, have

01:59:03   a line of products from just under $1,000 on up to a bajillion dollars that is all modern,

01:59:09   all nice, all updated on a semi-yearly basis.

01:59:13   Do that, right?

01:59:15   And then beyond that you can say, "Okay, well if you're going to have desktops too, do X,

01:59:19   Y, and Z."

01:59:20   But it doesn't matter.

01:59:21   Whatever you decide defines the Mac, whatever technology is involved, whatever ports, whatever

01:59:24   form factors or whatever, I really don't like this Mac line that is littered with the

01:59:30   corpses of old Macs. I really, really don't like it. It makes the whole product line a

01:59:34   minefield and trying to recommend one is bad and you get in these uncomfortable situations

01:59:38   no matter when you update and you get into these situations where there's not like a

01:59:42   safe one to buy depending on what your needs are. Like right now, if you want to get an

01:59:45   inexpensive Mac that's good, you know, choose one or the other. You can get an inexpensive

01:59:49   Mac or you can get a good Mac, but you can't get them both.

01:59:52   Honestly, like the old models that are still for sale are quite compelling. Like it's kind

01:59:57   of a shame they shouldn't be because they're three years old.

02:00:00   - Not the MacBook Air with that frickin' screen

02:00:02   that is not compelling.

02:00:03   - No, that's not.

02:00:04   But like the old 13 inch MacBook Pro is still for sale

02:00:07   and that's a pretty good buy for what it is.

02:00:10   The old 15 inches, you know,

02:00:11   also still a pretty great value, honestly.

02:00:14   But I mean, all things, all the negativity

02:00:18   and cynicism aside, which is not unwarranted,

02:00:21   there is one thing here that I'm optimistic about.

02:00:25   And as you said, actions speak louder than words.

02:00:28   And they can say they're committed to the Mac and everything,

02:00:30   but what matters is what they ship,

02:00:33   and what they show, what they do.

02:00:35   And they did just ship the Touch Bar.

02:00:38   Well, they're shipping the Touch Bar in like a month.

02:00:41   I don't know, whatever they're shipping,

02:00:43   it's not actually--

02:00:43   - Four to five weeks.

02:00:45   - Well yeah, whatever it is.

02:00:45   So they're shipping the Touch Bar sometime soon,

02:00:47   even though not even reviewers have it yet.

02:00:49   And so who knows if it's delayed for some reason,

02:00:51   or if it's just bad supply chain management,

02:00:53   because Apple can't launch a product anymore.

02:00:55   - Every Touch Bar Mac comes with a free set of AirPods,

02:00:58   though, so it's okay.

02:00:59   - Yeah, right, but that's what's delaying them.

02:01:02   (laughs)

02:01:03   So all that aside, the Touch Bar is not just a quick hack

02:01:08   to sell this generation of MacBook Pros.

02:01:12   They have gone deep with this Touch Bar.

02:01:14   It is deeply integrated at the hardware levels.

02:01:17   It has its tendrils all over the hardware of the computer.

02:01:21   the way it's integrated, the complexity of it,

02:01:24   how it integrates with things like the camera

02:01:26   and the microphone allegedly,

02:01:28   and the APIs for it are really extensive.

02:01:32   And Apple has clearly spent quite a lot of time and effort

02:01:36   updating all their apps to use them

02:01:38   and bring in partners to have all their apps

02:01:40   get ready for it and everything.

02:01:41   So this is an area where Apple has put a clear,

02:01:46   like strong investment into the Mac.

02:01:49   where this isn't just like a thing

02:01:52   they said six months ago, hey, we gotta do something

02:01:56   to sell MacBook Pros this fall,

02:01:57   but we don't wanna devote a lot of money to it

02:02:00   'cause we don't care about the Mac anymore.

02:02:01   So just come up with some kind of gimmickry

02:02:03   and we'll tack it on there.

02:02:03   No, this isn't that.

02:02:05   - Well, this was Brett Victor,

02:02:06   who is a computer genius who used to work for Apple,

02:02:11   and you should totally Google his name

02:02:12   and go to his website and watch his videos

02:02:14   and get your mind blown by the stuff he shows you.

02:02:16   He used to work at Apple at one of those, you know, I don't know if it was ATG, the

02:02:20   Advanced Technology Group, but one of those touchy feely kind of research high flutin

02:02:25   ideas.

02:02:26   And he left partially because like he had all these great ideas in his group that never

02:02:29   went anywhere.

02:02:31   And according to his tweets, this idea, the touch bar essentially, he was one of the ideas

02:02:38   that was at Apple eight years ago.

02:02:40   And I mean, that's true of everything.

02:02:41   Apple's, you know, I'm sure they're looking into VR and AR for their car stuff and like

02:02:45   like all sorts of research or whatever,

02:02:46   a lot of the times these things don't go anywhere.

02:02:48   They don't end up in a product.

02:02:49   And again, Brett Victor's frustration

02:02:52   with a lot of the Apple stuff is,

02:02:53   "Look at all these great ideas we have

02:02:55   and you never put them into products."

02:02:56   But Apple is patient and sometimes an idea has its time.

02:02:59   So it's not as if they worked on the Touch Bar for eight years

02:03:02   but the concept of maybe this is a thing

02:03:04   we could do with computers existed at Apple eight years ago

02:03:07   and has probably existed as a feature planned for laptops

02:03:12   for at least a year or more,

02:03:13   especially given the Skylake delays,

02:03:15   which informs a lot about these machines.

02:03:16   It's like, I think Apple expected to ship these sooners

02:03:19   and they did.

02:03:20   So when this thing appears and it's got, like you said,

02:03:22   mature APIs and tons of app support,

02:03:25   that's partially due to the delay

02:03:27   and partially due to, like you said, this is not a new idea.

02:03:29   This is an eight-year-old idea

02:03:31   that must've been resurrected by somebody

02:03:32   or maybe every couple of years,

02:03:33   they reevaluate a bunch of this bucket of old ideas

02:03:36   and say, are any of these applicable to current technology

02:03:38   or is it not time for?

02:03:39   And this came out of, like my Mac Pro,

02:03:42   came out of his eight year slumber and said,

02:03:43   "It is my time now, put me on a MacBook."

02:03:47   And they did.

02:03:48   - Well, and I think now is a good time

02:03:50   because the way they implemented it,

02:03:51   which seems to be a pretty good implementation

02:03:53   by all the first hand accounts

02:03:54   and the little bit of tech info we have about it,

02:03:58   but it seems like it's basically an Apple Watch

02:04:00   in a lot of ways.

02:04:01   It has an OLED retina density screen, basically.

02:04:05   It's driven by a chip that sounds very similar

02:04:09   to the watch's S1, has a secure enclave and everything,

02:04:12   Touch ID, all that stuff. Almost all of that is fairly recent technology that they really

02:04:17   wouldn't have been able to deliver in that form until basically now.

02:04:21   >> And also you needed, it's not just they wouldn't be able to deliver in the fall, but

02:04:24   you have to say, because Apple did a watch, which is not related to the Touch Bar really,

02:04:29   but because they did the watch, that's why they had the ability to make the T1, because

02:04:33   they had made the S1. It's like now the pieces have come together. It's not as if they made

02:04:37   the watch so they can make the Touch Bar, but these ideas, these technology research

02:04:41   projects and concepts they have sometimes only come to fruition not because they couldn't

02:04:45   have built the Touch Bar earlier because clearly they could have, but because now you say,

02:04:48   "Hey, guess what?

02:04:49   We have all the pieces for the Touch Bar now."

02:04:51   I don't think they would have dedicated a, "Hey, we've never made an ARM CPU before,

02:04:57   but let's start a division to make a tiny ARM CPU to power the Touch Bar."

02:05:00   They didn't choose to do that, but because they have expertise in ARMs and because they

02:05:03   made the watch and because this and because that, now is when it all comes together.

02:05:07   But it's like this is one of those concepts, these ideas of different ways of interacting

02:05:10   with the computer, should we touch the screen,

02:05:12   should we touch the keyboard,

02:05:13   should the keyboard be a big screen,

02:05:14   which I'm sure they've tested and all this other stuff,

02:05:16   comes together in a product.

02:05:18   And that's the best way it should work,

02:05:19   is like keep those ideas, patent them,

02:05:22   I roll, I hate patents.

02:05:24   And when their time is, you know, explore everything.

02:05:28   And you'll know when the time is right,

02:05:30   when it all kind of comes together.

02:05:31   And then when you do launch it,

02:05:33   it won't appear as like a half-assed thing.

02:05:35   It'll be launched with tons of app support

02:05:37   and a mature SDK.

02:05:38   And I really hope it's a good idea

02:05:41   because they did invest a lot of time and money in this

02:05:44   on their side.

02:05:45   So you're right.

02:05:45   That does mean, that is one action that matches their worth,

02:05:49   which is the Mac is really important to us

02:05:50   because that's a pretty significant investment

02:05:53   in some pretty weird hardware stuff

02:05:56   that the Mac hasn't seen for a long time.

02:05:58   They could have added Touch ID to the Mac

02:05:59   at the same time as it came to the phone

02:06:01   if the Mac was as important as the phone is.

02:06:03   It obviously isn't, but it is still important enough

02:06:06   for them to bring touch ID and not just touch ID

02:06:08   as like a little black square on the keyboard,

02:06:10   but also this whole touch bar concept.

02:06:13   - So we've run long and we probably shouldn't talk

02:06:16   about this, but with all the Intel delays and whatnot,

02:06:20   like, is it just a matter of time at this point

02:06:23   before Apple starts putting A-series chips in their laptops?

02:06:26   And then we keep glancing off this topic on and off.

02:06:28   - We keep glancing, we talked about it forever.

02:06:30   I think we should put it in the big topic list

02:06:32   for future shows.

02:06:33   That's fine. It seems even more obvious now that we really need to do that

02:06:40   that Apple really needs to think about this and I'm sure they already are but I

02:06:44   Don't know

02:06:47   They're getting they're catching a lot of blame for things that you could

02:06:52   Argue our Intel's fault as we talked about earlier

02:06:55   And maybe they are maybe they aren't Intel's fault

02:06:58   but you could paint a picture where it is Intel's fault and that and Apple just

02:07:03   doesn't usually stand for that sort of thing so I feel like it's got to be

02:07:07   eminent but who knows it all depends on the conditions that you know like power

02:07:14   PC was fine until it wasn't you know and and Intel is most of the time fine

02:07:21   sometimes even good, but this past year, you know, it isn't. And we'll see, you know,

02:07:29   if Intel is going to keep having problems and keep, you know, keep having incentives

02:07:34   and priorities that don't really line up with Apple very much and keep having delayed

02:07:39   problems and everything else, there eventually might come a time when it's worth it for

02:07:43   Apple to do this transition. You know, it only takes, like, it could take two years

02:07:49   of conditions changing before Apple says,

02:07:51   "You know what, we need this now."

02:07:54   But it is not an easy thing.

02:07:56   Like, the A series chips are really good

02:07:59   where they're used right now in the iPhone.

02:08:01   And if it were as easy as just dropping them

02:08:04   into like the Intel motherboard socket,

02:08:07   well, if they still had sockets,

02:08:09   but if it was as easy as dropping it into the socket

02:08:11   and just having like a different chip

02:08:12   that was Apple's chip and everything else

02:08:14   could stay the same, you know,

02:08:16   if you could still have Thunderbolt

02:08:18   and all the PC GPU support and everything,

02:08:20   like yeah, if you can still have all that

02:08:22   and just have Intel, just have Apple's chips in there

02:08:24   and have them updated whenever Apple could update them,

02:08:27   that'd be awesome.

02:08:28   But it isn't that simple.

02:08:29   - Well, they can do that.

02:08:30   That's the other rumor is that Apple

02:08:31   would make its own x86 chips.

02:08:33   Like they would get AMD when they're licensed for x86

02:08:36   and like Apple would design,

02:08:38   then you could drop it in

02:08:39   and they would license Thunderbolt.

02:08:40   Like that is one of the other rumors

02:08:42   along with the RMAQ things.

02:08:44   And that does have a lot of advantages

02:08:46   if Apple ever wanted to do it.

02:08:47   But as we said on past shows, the stumbling block for a lot of this is, is the Mac worth

02:08:52   that kind of investment?

02:08:53   Anyway, I think this is a much longer topic, and I don't want to go much longer.

02:08:56   So I put it in the topic list for future shows, unfortunately ahead of Microsoft Studio and

02:09:00   Nintendo Switch.

02:09:01   Sorry, everybody.

02:09:02   I also put in a line item for Mac clones.

02:09:03   Oh, God.

02:09:04   There's just another discussion that came up in the wake of that event.

02:09:08   Again, exactly how upset are people?

02:09:10   To the point where the idea of licensing the Mac operating system has once again come up,

02:09:17   as a joke in certain circles. So two things. First of all, the baseball game is now tied

02:09:23   in the bottom of the eighth, so this is getting interesting. Secondly, you have put an ellipsis

02:09:29   and then no space. Arm on Mac revisited, dot dot dot again, no space. I removed your space.

02:09:34   I saw you put the space there. It's barbaric! You need the spaces. Put it back here. I've

02:09:38   voted. Space after an ellipsis. Listen, which one of us is a professional writer? I'm gonna

02:09:44   say me yeah

02:09:50   (beep)