193: The Escape Zone


00:00:00   It is currently 5 past 9 on Thursday night.

00:00:02   The Apple event was earlier today.

00:00:04   My beloved Virginia Tech Hokies are presently losing to the University of Pittsburgh.

00:00:09   I am watching it out of the corner of my eye on my iPad on the Watch ESPN app, which is

00:00:13   actually very nice.

00:00:15   And I am trying desperately to pay attention to what you guys are saying rather than watch

00:00:20   my beloved Hokies.

00:00:22   And so if I accidentally let out a cheer, maybe given that we're losing 2116, a not

00:00:29   happy cheer that Marco may have to bleep. My apologies, but this is what I do for you

00:00:34   listeners. That's how much I do.

00:00:35   It would be kind of incredible though to be like perfectly well timed. Like we're talking

00:00:38   about like, you know this new touch bar and Casey's like, "F***." You know, like that,

00:00:41   come on, that would be kind of amazing.

00:00:45   I wouldn't put it past me. So no promises.

00:00:49   All right. So we do have an infinitesimally small bit of follow up. Get—yes! All right,

00:00:56   - Within 10 yards, that's a good deal.

00:00:58   So we have an infinitesimally small amount to follow up.

00:01:01   - So for joke reference,

00:01:02   this is a football team you're watching?

00:01:04   - Yes, this is a football team I'm watching.

00:01:06   - I have to know which sport to make terrible jokes about.

00:01:08   - Fair enough.

00:01:09   Oh, and isn't the World Series tonight as well,

00:01:12   actually, come to think of it?

00:01:13   One of the games, I mean.

00:01:14   - Probably.

00:01:15   Isn't it like every night?

00:01:17   I mean, that's the thing, baseball's like a DDoS attack.

00:01:20   It's just like every night there's baseball.

00:01:22   Like, you can't get away from baseball.

00:01:24   There's constantly games everywhere, every day.

00:01:27   That is amazing.

00:01:28   Well done, sir.

00:01:29   So we do have a bit of follow-up, and for the first time in like two or three weeks,

00:01:33   it's not me.

00:01:34   Jon, what have you been up to lately?

00:01:36   I did actually make it to an Apple store to check out the phones that were there.

00:01:40   It was a dedicated trip.

00:01:42   The only reason I went was to check out the phones.

00:01:45   We're going to start by talking about the iPhones.

00:01:48   Yeah, well, it'll be quick.

00:01:49   It'll be quick.

00:01:50   We'll have plenty of time.

00:01:51   Here's a picture you took with one.

00:01:52   Here's another picture you took with one.

00:01:53   Uh-huh. Yeah. I was gonna send it to Tim, but I decided not to. And I was hoping it would clarify,

00:02:00   he had plenty, would clarify which one I wanted to get. It didn't really help me that much because...

00:02:05   Really?

00:02:06   Yeah, because I know I have a dilemma. I think I've kind of decided what I'm gonna do,

00:02:10   but you know, yeah. So the jet black one is grippier. It would look better if people didn't

00:02:16   touch it, but people touch it so it looks gross. It has little scratches on it, like,

00:02:19   But we already covered all of this ground.

00:02:22   I think what's going to end up happening is I'm going to experience the worst of all possible

00:02:27   worlds because what I think I'm going to do is buy a JetBlack one and try using it without

00:02:32   a case and then eventually decide that I can't handle it without a case because it looks

00:02:35   too ugly and you can't scratch too much and then buy a case for it later after it's already

00:02:39   damaged and scratched up and put a leather case on my scratched up JetBlack iPhone 7.

00:02:45   At least it wouldn't be a lie.

00:02:46   At least you wouldn't have this pristine phone under there that you think is totally unscratched,

00:02:51   but there's actually one scratch on the side.

00:02:53   I think I can keep it pretty well, but the thing is, I've never, all of my iPod touches

00:02:58   I've had cases for and my one iPhone I had a case for, so I'm just going to give it a

00:03:01   try without a case, because this one is grippy enough that I feel like, alright, let's give

00:03:05   it a try and can I handle the damage that is inevitably going to happen to this?

00:03:10   So I think I'm going to give it a try.

00:03:11   I almost bought one when I was there, but then I remembered that I'm not supposed to

00:03:14   to buy one until I can renegotiate some Verizon thing in like 10 days or something.

00:03:19   And they only had 256 gig models anyway, so I didn't get one.

00:03:22   But I think that's what I'm going to do.

00:03:24   Get a Jet Black one, try it without a case, see how long I last.

00:03:27   I predict that will not last long.

00:03:29   Fair enough.

00:03:30   Now are you planning to get AppleCare?

00:03:32   Oh yes, yes, I always do.

00:03:34   I bought myself this matte black iPhone 7, which I stand by a few weeks later is the

00:03:41   prettiest iPhone I think I've ever owned.

00:03:43   I really genuinely believe it's great looking.

00:03:46   It is slicker than anything you can imagine,

00:03:50   but it's really darn good looking.

00:03:52   Yes!

00:03:53   All right, field goal, that's a good sign.

00:03:55   Only down by two.

00:03:56   So anyway, so I got this, excuse me, this matte black iPhone.

00:04:01   - This is all staying in the show, you know.

00:04:04   - Oh, that's fine.

00:04:06   The listeners will take this journey with me.

00:04:08   So I got AppleCare.

00:04:10   Yeah, I know.

00:04:11   I got this AppleCare+ for the very first time, I never got an AppleCare on anything before

00:04:15   to the best of my recollection, and I feel okay about this.

00:04:20   Meanwhile, later that same launch day, I order Erin an iPhone 7, no AppleCare+, because she

00:04:29   always uses a case.

00:04:30   We go to a football game this past weekend, and her phone falls out of her pocket because,

00:04:37   why wouldn't it?

00:04:38   slick as a bar of soap and

00:04:40   She didn't have her case on it yet. Ask me what happened to Erin's phone her three-week-old phone

00:04:46   Did you spill water on it? No, that would actually be kind of okay

00:04:50   Why did not have a case on it yet? How long does it take for the case installation process after after it is?

00:04:55   Purchased this is like you have to bring it to the dealer to put the case on you just take out of the box

00:05:00   You put it in the case

00:05:01   Well, the rust proof coating on the undercarriage is really expensive and it takes a long time now

00:05:06   What ended up happening was we had gotten an Apple case, but even the silicone cases are ridiculously expensive. Just wait

00:05:12   Just wait, the silicone cases are like 30 or 40 bucks

00:05:15   And so we had had one but we were thinking oh

00:05:17   Maybe we can find something that's effectively the same on Amazon hadn't opened up the Apple one in case we could return it

00:05:22   So what ended up happening was in order to attempt to save the $40

00:05:26   I think it was for the the silicone case that we had already purchased

00:05:31   We ended up now having $130 worth of damage that is yet to be fixed because it's like when your UPS was sitting next to

00:05:37   Your computer during the thunderstorm not plugged into it. Yes

00:05:39   The case sitting at home and in the box while you drop your phone. Mm-hmm. That's true. That's absolutely accurate. So

00:05:47   So get Apple cares really the moral of the story here or put the darn phone in a case and don't be like me

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00:07:15   I'm all fired up, ready to go. It's the Mac day. I'm so happy, but yet asterisks. But other for the most part, I'm happy.

00:07:25   It's Mac Day. We should start by talking about TV then. We should. To give an accurate simulation

00:07:31   of the experience of watching this presentation. Well, you know that with Jon on the phone,

00:07:35   we cannot skip anywhere. We're going to have to go chronologically. So let's start with the TV.

00:07:40   Things have happened for the Apple TV. And in fact, things have happened for more than just

00:07:45   the Apple TV. They've happened for iOS as well. The Mac, well, I mean, who cares about the Mac?

00:07:50   It's just a Mac event, so.

00:07:52   But yeah, there's an Apple TV app, or TV app, I should say, for iOS.

00:07:57   Not for the Mac, but for iOS.

00:07:58   And as well for the TV, of course.

00:08:00   And it's all things to all people, as long as you don't care about Netflix or Amazon.

00:08:04   Yeah, it's weird, kind of weird that they did TV stuff in this thing, although we kind

00:08:08   of knew that they were going to, you know, just off our features, no hardware features,

00:08:12   they haven't fixed the Apple TV remote or anything like that.

00:08:15   But they did want to talk about their new, you know, making the experience of actually

00:08:20   watching TV on your Apple TV better, which is, hey, a good thing to do.

00:08:23   Maybe don't spend so long on it in front of an event that's supposed to be about Mix,

00:08:26   but whatever.

00:08:27   But I think it's worth talking about because this presentation kind of showed that Apple

00:08:32   is still chipping away at Apple TV, making steady progress.

00:08:36   But on the other hand, I think it also highlighted all the ways that they're behind.

00:08:41   And I had a couple of thoughts in my head while watching this.

00:08:43   was that everything they were showing you,

00:08:46   like the unified interface TV,

00:08:49   convenient place to watch all your stuff,

00:08:51   easier than going to find like what app

00:08:53   was I watching that thing in or whatever,

00:08:54   you know, having a unified TV thing

00:08:56   keeps track of what you're watching,

00:08:57   even if you're using another app to watch it,

00:08:59   trying to bring everything together,

00:09:01   like their goal of, you know,

00:09:02   I forget what the words were,

00:09:04   I'll try to scrub to it in the video here,

00:09:06   but like a unified TV experience or whatever,

00:09:08   you can't, oh, what is it?

00:09:10   Unified TV experience, there you go.

00:09:12   you can't actually deliver on that

00:09:15   until you hit some critical mass of content.

00:09:18   And it's debatable what that critical mass of content is,

00:09:21   but obviously we would agree that if you just had HBO,

00:09:25   it's never gonna be a unified interface,

00:09:27   or if you didn't have some of the major sports,

00:09:29   it wouldn't be unified interface.

00:09:30   But like, I'm not quite sure what that is,

00:09:32   but I think Apple TV does not yet have

00:09:35   a critical mass of content.

00:09:37   And you may say that's based solely on Netflix

00:09:40   not participating in this.

00:09:41   That is enough at this point to say no,

00:09:44   because people want their Netflix,

00:09:46   they have exclusive content, people like it.

00:09:48   If that's not part of this experience, so much for Unified.

00:09:51   It's already bifurcated and it's just gonna splendor

00:09:53   even more for things like local sports that you can't get.

00:09:55   So the gold Unified experience is fine,

00:09:58   but as discussed many, many times in the past,

00:10:01   if you're not gonna do the omnivorous box thing,

00:10:03   you can never present a Unified interface

00:10:05   unless you literally contain all the content

00:10:08   someone wants to watch on TV.

00:10:10   And I don't think they're close to that for most people,

00:10:14   because there's always gonna be something

00:10:15   that's not in Apple TV

00:10:17   or not in the TV app and Apple TV for most people.

00:10:20   Few people who only watch the things that are in there,

00:10:22   fine, but like, if that's their goal,

00:10:24   they need to work on the business side of this

00:10:27   to figure out if we had these content providers,

00:10:32   we could get, you know,

00:10:33   we would cover 80% of the viewing public's needs

00:10:35   or whatever.

00:10:36   And I'm sure that changes from country to country

00:10:37   and region to region,

00:10:38   but I don't think they're close now.

00:10:39   So that's depressing, but that's nothing to do with technology,

00:10:42   it has to do entirely with business deals.

00:10:44   And the next thing is the TV button,

00:10:47   the icon on the remote for the TV button,

00:10:51   like it's kind of the home button,

00:10:53   which when you press it, you go back to the screen

00:10:56   with all the little rectangles

00:10:57   where all your different apps are, right?

00:10:59   But that icon that's printed on the remote

00:11:02   is also the little glyph that's on the TV app.

00:11:05   And so in the demo they showed,

00:11:08   If you go to the TV app, launch it, and there's a bunch of things you're watching, and you

00:11:12   click on one of them like Game of Thrones, and you're chucked off into the HBO app where

00:11:15   you're watching Game of Thrones, and then you hit the TV icon, it takes you back to

00:11:20   the TV application, not back to the screen with a bunch of little rectangles.

00:11:23   And it's kind of like this button and this thing go together, and it should have been

00:11:30   there from the beginning, but it could be retconned in, but either way, it kind of changes

00:11:34   the fundamental experience, I think for the better, kind of in the same way that the Apple

00:11:38   watch experience was changed, it's like, look, people don't want to go back to basically

00:11:41   springboard on their Apple TV all the time. It's supposed to be a television watching

00:11:44   device and if you're watching television, the television watching should be the central

00:11:48   thing. Like when you hit the TiVo button, you go back to, well, that's not a good example

00:11:52   because it always takes you back to the stupid main TiVo central, whatever. Anyway, re-centering

00:11:58   the center of gravity of Apple TV on television I think is a good idea. But then, now all

00:12:04   All of a sudden the Apple TV reframed in this way less as a like humongous iPad that you

00:12:09   don't touch.

00:12:10   You know, like it's just like a big iPad, you know, less like a, Oh, springboard is

00:12:12   the heart of everything, right?

00:12:15   Springboard is not the heart of everything.

00:12:17   The TV app is the heart of Apple TV because it's all about watching TV.

00:12:20   And sometimes you might want to play games or whatever, but really you want to be using

00:12:22   the TV app and reframed like that.

00:12:25   Then again, you see how far behind on there, where are the user profiles?

00:12:29   How can I switch to like my kids thing where all their apps are going?

00:12:32   Oh, there's like up next or whatever.

00:12:33   Yeah, fine, if you live alone and only one person ever watches TV shows at the same time, that's great.

00:12:37   How do I switch to, you know, a different account with a different Apple ID or with the same Apple ID?

00:12:42   All these things that Netflix has long since figured out, because when you launch a Netflix app,

00:12:45   you can pick who you want to be and you have your own queue of stuff and you have your own thing that you've watched last,

00:12:49   and I'm not going to go up to it and find out the next thing that's up next for me is like, you know,

00:12:54   some Disney Channel show that my daughter was watching that I don't want to watch, right?

00:12:58   they're so far behind just the Netflix app,

00:13:01   let alone other full television experience,

00:13:05   you know, attempts to be a unified thing.

00:13:07   So I'm glad Apple TV is making progress.

00:13:10   I think they're moving in the right direction,

00:13:12   but they're still behind and the remote sucks.

00:13:15   - Well, how do you really feel?

00:13:17   You know, I was really excited to see the live sports stuff

00:13:21   and granted, as we've already discussed,

00:13:23   I am not at all watching college football right now,

00:13:27   But being able to just say to Siri,

00:13:30   put on the Virginia Tech game or what have you,

00:13:33   that's really powerful and really awesome.

00:13:36   - When it works.

00:13:37   - When it works, which I mean, well,

00:13:39   I'm going on faith that it generally does.

00:13:41   But that's really exciting.

00:13:44   And that's, like you said,

00:13:45   it's movements in the right direction.

00:13:48   But I just have a hard time thinking that for me,

00:13:52   this is going to be much of an improvement

00:13:54   because generally speaking, when I'm using the Apple TV,

00:13:57   which I do darn near daily, I'm using Plex,

00:14:02   or I'm using Netflix, or occasionally I'm using

00:14:05   the standard music app.

00:14:07   It's very rare I am doing anything else.

00:14:10   So having to go, I guess how this would work

00:14:14   is I would hit the TV what was once the home button

00:14:17   to go to the TV app, and then I guess hit it again

00:14:19   to go to Springboard, maybe?

00:14:21   - I don't know if it, it might take you back

00:14:23   the Springboard thing if you haven't first launched Apple TV. I have no idea where. We

00:14:26   saw a demo with two seconds worth of interaction. We'll find out when we get the OS update,

00:14:30   I suppose.

00:14:31   But anyway, if going back to Springboard is via the Apple TV app, or I'm sorry, the TV

00:14:37   app always, that's actually going to be a disappointing change for me. But I hope, I

00:14:43   really, really hope that in the future the Netflix and Amazon stuff gets squared away

00:14:48   so that they can be included because

00:14:50   Amazon is going to be important to me soon because of the Grand Tour

00:14:54   Like I said, Netflix is where we watch pretty much any TV that isn't on, you know, terrestrial television

00:15:00   and Plexus for movies and other things so I

00:15:04   Feel like this is step in the right direction, but it's not there yet. And man, I'm hopeful though

00:15:09   I'm super hopeful even though I don't expect anything to actually happen

00:15:12   And Apple has a lot of work to do if it wants to

00:15:15   get these things in like get Netflix on board if this is the unified TV experience you need to have Netflix in there get Amazon to

00:15:21   Have a thing like integrate make sure the people who should be integrating do make sure Plex is integrated

00:15:27   Like if you really want to be unified you have to reach out and it's really hard to get Netflix on board when Apple keeps

00:15:32   Making emotions about oh, we're gonna be our make our own content like they're doing that reality show and Tim Cook keeps talking about

00:15:37   Well, you know, we're looking into funding content

00:15:40   to be like making your own content is directly competing with Netflix and

00:15:44   Amazon who are also making their own content and I I think it's easier to

00:15:50   work with something like HBO which also makes its own content because HBO has no

00:15:52   pretensions to make a digital platform for television watching like they're not

00:15:56   selling little pucks that you connect to your TV they don't sell network services

00:15:59   they're all about the content so that is a little bit more of a straightforward

00:16:02   thing but anyway if this is their plan they they got a lot of work to do so

00:16:06   So while we're waiting for the new Apple TV with a non-crappy remote to come out, hopefully

00:16:11   all of Apple's little business people are scurrying around trying to get these deals

00:16:15   to happen, doing whatever it takes.

00:16:17   Or just don't be a TV platform.

00:16:18   Like if you're going to play in this game and try to provide a unified interface, then

00:16:21   provide a unified interface.

00:16:22   I don't want to see, you know, ten years from now three or four islands of content with

00:16:27   their own apps and their own ecosystems totally separate from each other.

00:16:30   It's annoying.

00:16:31   All right.

00:16:32   Anything else about the TV?

00:16:33   - Oh, I know Marco, you are really excited

00:16:35   to talk about it some more, but.

00:16:37   - Oh yes, I care so much about television.

00:16:40   - You know, you say that, and I know to some degree

00:16:42   you're being silly, but don't you watch all of your TV

00:16:45   through the Apple TV?

00:16:46   - Yeah, and I don't care about it whatsoever.

00:16:49   Like, to me, the Apple TV is something that I,

00:16:53   I kinda treat the Apple TV the way a lot of our friends

00:16:56   who love iPads so much treat the Mac.

00:16:59   It's a thing that I use, I choose it as the best

00:17:02   of a whole bunch of tools I don't care about.

00:17:05   And I use it and I don't really think about it.

00:17:07   I don't have a lot of passion for TV or TV related things

00:17:11   or TV related boxes.

00:17:13   The Apple TV, the new Apple TV box is largely fine.

00:17:18   It could be better in a lot of ways.

00:17:20   I think it will always just be fine.

00:17:23   The old one was always just fine also.

00:17:26   The Apple TV as a product line has been around

00:17:27   for quite some time and it has always been fine.

00:17:31   so I expect it to continue to be fine,

00:17:33   for me to continue to use it on a regular basis,

00:17:36   but really just never think about it at all,

00:17:38   except when I'm using it and it doesn't work.

00:17:40   - I think you'll appreciate the up next thing,

00:17:41   because if you actually use that TV app,

00:17:43   it's an easier way to get back,

00:17:44   what was I doing before on the Apple TV

00:17:46   if it hasn't retained state on the thing,

00:17:48   to be able to just go to that.

00:17:50   - Except that the things that I watch most often

00:17:52   are Netflix and Plex, which I'm pretty sure

00:17:55   will probably never be in it.

00:17:57   - Will not be in the, yeah.

00:17:59   - I hear ya.

00:17:59   You know, it's the kind of thing,

00:18:01   like I don't have cable, so I don't have a cable login,

00:18:03   so I don't use any apps that require a cable login.

00:18:06   I do have HBO Go now, whichever one.

00:18:09   I have one of the HBOs.

00:18:11   - Now.

00:18:11   - But I've actually been, thank you,

00:18:13   I've actually been thinking about canceling it,

00:18:14   'cause we hardly ever watch anything there.

00:18:15   Like we watch stuff in bursts,

00:18:17   and you can always just turn it off and turn it on again.

00:18:19   - Touchdown, oh no, nevermind, damn.

00:18:22   (laughing)

00:18:23   - Regardless, I don't think I'm going to possibly

00:18:27   see this TV app or if I do it'll be

00:18:29   Something that gets in my way that that you know

00:18:32   I have to like click the the fake home button one more time out of to get to what I really want to watch

00:18:36   Alright, anything else on the Apple TV is your team losing it?

00:18:40   They are losing I thought we had a touchdown which would have put us somewhat comfortably in the lead, but I was mistaken. Mmm

00:18:46   Riveting, you know, we forgot to mention something

00:18:49   They Apple opened the keynote with a really lovely video on accessibility. Yeah, I mean that genuinely

00:18:55   I completely forgot to mention that. I thought that was really cool. And they said that they're going to

00:19:01   Or I guess I think it's already there. I just haven't looked at it yet there. They're going to have like a top-level

00:19:06   so to speak accessibility page on their website, which we should check out and we'll find it and put a link in the show notes

00:19:13   But I thought that was a really great video and and in many ways

00:19:17   I think that's Apple at its best and and I just wanted to applaud them for it because I thought that that was really good stuff

00:19:25   Apple has always been really good with accessibility stuff.

00:19:28   Like, you know, they haven't been perfect, by all means,

00:19:31   and anybody who uses these technologies will tell you

00:19:33   the various times they haven't been perfect,

00:19:34   but compared to what almost everyone else

00:19:37   in the industry does, Apple's accessibility support

00:19:39   is just world class, it's so good.

00:19:43   And what you get out of the box with Apple products

00:19:45   for things like screen readers and click control,

00:19:48   you know, all sorts of various technologies,

00:19:51   a lot of times this kind of stuff is available

00:19:53   on other platforms, but only if you buy additional software

00:19:56   or have additional hardware even.

00:19:58   What you get with Apple out of the box

00:20:03   with all their products accessibility-wise

00:20:05   is just ridiculously good compared

00:20:07   to everything else in the market.

00:20:08   - I think the most important feature of these videos

00:20:10   is aside from making people think Apple is a nice company

00:20:14   and doing all the PR effect that specifically

00:20:16   we're like, oh, you go to these video shows,

00:20:18   you're such a nice company.

00:20:19   Well, A, they are a nice company,

00:20:20   and B, the other side effect of this is that it exposes people who don't use these features,

00:20:27   people like me, don't use these features for the most part, to the fact that they exist

00:20:31   and how they work. I had no idea that the camera on the iPhone will speak to you about

00:20:36   who's in the frame and whether it finds a face and how big the face is so a person who

00:20:41   can't see can take pictures with the camera. When do regular people experience these features?

00:20:45   I don't think most people go into accessibility and turn on accessibility features created

00:20:49   for people who have bad or no vision or can't hear or so on and so forth, just experiment

00:20:53   with it, right? Most people don't see these features at all. And so when you say accessibility,

00:20:58   maybe people don't even know what you mean. You're like, "Well, what do you mean? How

00:21:01   can a blind person use an iPhone? You got to see the screen, right?" People just don't

00:21:03   know, right? And these things, I think, show what marketers said, how far these products

00:21:11   go to be usable in situations that regular people don't consider because they don't have

00:21:15   if you don't have these limitations, you don't know what affordances are there to help you with them until you need them.

00:21:23   As we all get old, for example, I'm sure most of us will be cranking up the text size, and all of a sudden we'll appreciate that feature that we never touched before.

00:21:32   My parents used their iPhone 6-size device in the big mode, where I forget what it's called, but everything is bigger.

00:21:39   It's like zoomed in, it's a non-native res.

00:21:42   And that feature is meaningless to me now, but eventually as my vision gets worse, suddenly

00:21:47   it'll be like, "Oh, I'm glad that's there."

00:21:49   These videos do a good job of highlighting to both users and developers that this stuff

00:21:53   is actually there, so that when they do eventually get older and start, you know, their sensory

00:22:00   perception starts changing, they'll know to go and find those, and they'll feel good about,

00:22:05   you know, using a product line that offers these features.

00:22:08   And for developers, it's reminding them it's not just about putting labels on your things.

00:22:12   There's other, you know, go the extra mile.

00:22:15   Like, see what we did with the camera app.

00:22:16   If you have a camera app, you could do something like this too.

00:22:19   Your application would be more accessible.

00:22:21   All right.

00:22:22   What else was spoken about pre-Mac stuff?

00:22:26   There was nothing that pertinent, right?

00:22:29   Didn't they talk about iPhones briefly?

00:22:30   They talked about how well the Apple Watch is selling but not giving any numbers, I don't

00:22:34   think.

00:22:35   And, yeah, I mean, who cares?

00:22:36   Let's talk about Macs.

00:22:37   about Macs. It's Mac Day. They talk about iOS penetration of iOS 10 versus the latest

00:22:44   version of Android or whatever. Let's be honest, they were killing time. I don't know why they

00:22:48   were killing time. They didn't have, like, it's not as if... There's one thing to have

00:22:52   filler. And the second thing to just make what should have been a much shorter presentation

00:22:56   way too long. But they did. We forgot to mention something about the Apple TV. Minecraft is

00:23:01   on the Apple TV. Is that... I'm not trying to be snarky. Is that something we care about?

00:23:06   Is that a big deal or do you think no one will use that?

00:23:08   I don't know squat about Minecraft.

00:23:10   - I don't think that's that.

00:23:11   I mean, it's a big deal in that Minecraft is super popular

00:23:15   and tons of people will buy it and play it.

00:23:17   But Minecraft is available

00:23:19   on like every platform in the universe.

00:23:21   So the fact that it's on Apple TV now,

00:23:23   yeah, you have parody, good.

00:23:24   But, you know.

00:23:26   - All right, so I guess I've run out of reasons to stall

00:23:28   other than to say that tech is up 2221 over pit.

00:23:31   Let's talk about the Mac.

00:23:34   Overall, I feel like this is okay.

00:23:39   I think this was good.

00:23:41   I certainly have been left,

00:23:42   there's certain things that I'm disappointed by.

00:23:45   But in the grand scheme of things,

00:23:48   these new MacBook Pros look really darn good.

00:23:51   Really, really good.

00:23:52   I'm amped about the, what do they call it, the touch bar.

00:23:55   I don't know if I'll like it,

00:23:59   but tentatively, it looks good.

00:24:01   I'm excited, I'm excited to try it,

00:24:03   even though I don't plan on buying one and I'm not going to get one from work for two

00:24:07   years. But anyway, I'm excited to try it. I am sad, although completely unsurprised,

00:24:13   that they don't have a Magic Keyboard update that included it. I understand that leaving

00:24:19   that screen on would surely take a not insignificant amount of battery power, but the Magic Keyboard

00:24:25   is rechargeable now, so who really cares? If I have to charge it once...

00:24:28   You connect it with a wire and then you wouldn't have that problem.

00:24:31   I wouldn't want to be an animal, but I could be.

00:24:35   But no, I mean, I would love to see a Magic Keyboard that had this touch bar on it.

00:24:39   I don't expect it'll happen, but it would be neat.

00:24:42   And I say that in part because at home I use a desktop, I use an iMac.

00:24:46   And certainly today there was no real talk about anything for the desktop, but I can't

00:24:52   say I'm surprised by that either.

00:24:54   I mean, what are they really going to do to the iMac?

00:24:56   There's not really any new chips, are there?

00:24:58   And outside of maybe a new fancy keyboard, wired or wireless, or maybe I guess you could

00:25:03   put different ports on it, you could put USB-C ports on it, but that's not that remarkable

00:25:09   to me.

00:25:10   So I'm not too surprised that there's not a lot of desktop activity.

00:25:14   Nobody really thought the Mac Pro would be updated, am I right?

00:25:16   I mean, come on.

00:25:17   We were talking about this last week, Marco said the same thing.

00:25:19   Like, if we're going to update the iMac at all, it's just USB-C ports, and we didn't

00:25:23   mention another fancy keyboard, but...

00:25:25   Well, that's not entirely true.

00:25:27   I believe the Kaby Lake CPUs are available,

00:25:30   roughly, for the iMac.

00:25:31   I'm not sure if they're in volume, really, yet,

00:25:33   but technically, new CPUs are basically available

00:25:36   for the iMac now.

00:25:38   - I know, but none of us expected the iMac to come,

00:25:40   or the Mac Pro, or the Mac Mini.

00:25:42   You expected the iMac, really?

00:25:43   - The iMac has been updated the last two falls.

00:25:46   It made sense.

00:25:47   It is right on schedule for the iMac to be updated.

00:25:49   I'm guessing it probably is not far off.

00:25:52   I mean, I wouldn't expect it next week,

00:25:54   but I'm guessing it's not gonna be another year

00:25:56   until the next iMac update.

00:25:57   It's probably gonna be a few months, maybe.

00:25:59   - I don't know.

00:26:00   You're more optimistic than I am.

00:26:01   Like I said in the last show,

00:26:03   I think they should keep updating iMac,

00:26:05   but I have dim hopes that they will.

00:26:07   'Cause I mean, I don't understand the reasoning

00:26:11   behind the cadence of doing iMac updates so faithfully

00:26:14   and then just dropping it,

00:26:15   but I totally expected not to have any desktop Macs

00:26:18   at this thing at all.

00:26:19   - Well, the thing is, doing an update

00:26:22   when it's a fairly minor processor

00:26:25   and motherboard chipset update, it is not that hard.

00:26:28   It doesn't take that much engineering work for Apple.

00:26:30   Not anymore engineering work than any other update is.

00:26:34   And it used to be, not that long ago,

00:26:37   that every time there was a new chipset out

00:26:40   for either the MacBook, the MacBook Pro,

00:26:42   the MacBook Air, or the iMac, it got updated

00:26:45   within a month of that new chip coming out.

00:26:47   So it's only been in these recent years

00:26:49   where there's been Apple skipping generations

00:26:52   and Intel having weird delays.

00:26:54   It's only been in those years that we started having

00:26:56   these things where Apple is kind of like deciding

00:26:59   whether they wanna bother updating things.

00:27:01   I mean, it used to just be assumed, of course,

00:27:02   they would update their main computers

00:27:04   with the new chips that came out.

00:27:06   And so the iMac line of chips has not had those problems

00:27:09   that all the mobile ones have had with Intel.

00:27:12   So the iMacs have actually been updated

00:27:13   on a regular basis until right now,

00:27:16   and it's a little questionable why it wasn't there now,

00:27:19   and I guess the answer will not be apparent

00:27:22   until whenever it is updated next,

00:27:23   then we'll figure out like, you know, why did it not get updated now, I guess?

00:27:27   Well, I think I have an answer, though, because if you look at Wikipedia, which is clearly

00:27:31   the source of all human knowledge and never incorrect, the Kaby Lake Wikipedia entry says

00:27:36   that it began shipping to manufacturers and OEMs in the second quarter of this year. Mobile

00:27:40   chips have started shipping with more of Kaby Lake desktop chips to be released in the coming

00:27:44   months or early next year. So what makes you think that they're available for the iMac

00:27:48   right now?

00:27:49   I don't know. Random people on Twitter told me. I could be wrong.

00:27:52   - You want random people in the chat room

00:27:53   who are pointing out that if they are available,

00:27:55   it's almost certainly not the ones

00:27:56   with the fancy Iris graphics that Apple always likes.

00:27:59   - Fair enough, all right, so that could be the reason then.

00:28:01   So it could be as simple as that.

00:28:03   Also, I think it's worth pointing out,

00:28:05   like we heard from a lot of people,

00:28:07   because like Intel officially quote launched Kaby Lake,

00:28:09   like a month or two ago or whatever it was,

00:28:11   and we immediately heard from everybody on Twitter saying,

00:28:14   "How could Apple release Skylake laptops now

00:28:17   "and not Kaby Lake?"

00:28:18   And of course the reason why is 'cause when Intel

00:28:19   announces a launch, it means nothing.

00:28:21   It's like Intel's basically saying,

00:28:23   "These chips will be available sometime,

00:28:25   "maybe in the future."

00:28:27   And the actual time that you can ship computers

00:28:29   with the right ones for those computers

00:28:31   might be two to 12 months away from that time period.

00:28:36   But anyway, Kaby Lake I don't think is a big deal.

00:28:39   From everything that we've read about it,

00:28:41   from what we know about it so far,

00:28:42   it seems like it is not really something

00:28:45   that you should be really waiting up for.

00:28:47   Sky Lake was a big deal, Kaby Lake really isn't.

00:28:49   I also have another important update for you.

00:28:52   It's 2921 Tech.

00:28:53   The good guys are winning.

00:28:55   - Is this a basketball game you're watching?

00:28:57   There's a lot of scoring going on here.

00:28:59   - Well, you know, football,

00:29:00   sometimes it's a more offensive than defensive game.

00:29:03   - Are you voting for the hoodies or what are you doing?

00:29:06   - Hokies, H-O-K-I-E-S.

00:29:07   - It was like that ringer of an Auburn game they had

00:29:11   where Auburn was up like 50 something.

00:29:13   (laughing)

00:29:15   - If only. - You get to do that

00:29:16   when you're CEO, I guess.

00:29:17   - Right.

00:29:18   - Okay, so no desktop, so no iMac updates.

00:29:22   It's unclear whether or not Kaby Lake is available.

00:29:24   Tipster's saying yes, I'm seeing no.

00:29:27   - I mean, it doesn't matter if it's available.

00:29:29   It's those lead times to getting it into computers.

00:29:31   And Apple recently has not been that spry

00:29:33   about like, "As soon as the chips are ready,

00:29:35   "we're gonna be ready to go."

00:29:36   Like that's kind of more of the old Apple

00:29:38   and this new one is like,

00:29:39   "Don't even wake me up until they're available in volume

00:29:42   "and the next generation is about to come out."

00:29:45   Yeah, then maybe we'll incorporate them

00:29:46   into a computer of some kind.

00:29:48   When Apple delays on things, and this is probably Intel delay here, but when Apple delays on

00:29:54   things, what I'm saying is we don't really have to make excuses for Apple anymore. They

00:30:00   are the biggest corporation in the world most of the time. They have tons of resources that

00:30:04   they can choose to devote to updating their computers to new components that come out

00:30:07   for them. It isn't that hard. It doesn't take a lot of time or money relative to what

00:30:11   they make from them and what they have as a company. So we don't need to excuse them.

00:30:15   It is up to them to update things, and it is my opinion they should not be slackers

00:30:21   about that or skip generation simply because they don't feel like it.

00:30:24   Fair enough.

00:30:25   So sadness about, well maybe not sadness about the iMac, I think we can all agree that's

00:30:29   reasonably expected.

00:30:31   Sadness but not surprised about the, what is that little Mac called that doesn't come

00:30:37   with any devices attached to it, it's not got a display.

00:30:40   It's like a little one.

00:30:41   It's like a tiny Mac.

00:30:42   The Mac Pro.

00:30:43   No, no, no, not the circular one.

00:30:45   not the circular one it's like more of a rounded rect it's a Mac Pro

00:30:49   Apple TV you're thinking. Ah shoot I can't remember the name Mac

00:30:53   Small? Mac Small maybe? No it's much smaller than that

00:30:56   Ah man it'll come to me. Oh I think it's the Mac Air. The Power Mac G4 Cube

00:31:00   yes that's it. Oh is that it okay yeah so no Power Mac G4 Cube updates

00:31:04   no trash can updates thank God

00:31:08   because I wouldn't even pay attention to this show anymore I'd just be watching my

00:31:12   football game

00:31:12   Actually, maybe they should have updated the Mac Pro.

00:31:14   Isn't that what you're doing?

00:31:16   Speaking of the Mac Pro, I was surprised at how many random angry people there were on

00:31:22   Twitter about there being no Mac Pro update, which shows that there's this weird Venn diagram

00:31:27   between people who understand that the Mac Pro hasn't been updated in forever, but don't

00:31:32   follow the stuff enough to know that there was no way in hell a new Mac Pro was coming

00:31:35   out in this thing.

00:31:36   So it's kind of weird that the anger has spread beyond the people who were ever actually going

00:31:40   to buy one to just the general public being embarrassed for Apple for having this quote

00:31:43   unquote "pro computer" that pretty soon the watch will be faster then.

00:31:47   Well because you know even if you're not about to buy a Mac Pro the fact that they have this

00:31:52   high-end that the highest end computer in their lineup that has been so neglected.

00:31:56   High-end air super air quotes.

00:31:58   Yes.

00:31:59   But well it's still I mean if you do parallel stuff it's still the fastest it's fast it's

00:32:03   on no other benchmark but on that.

00:32:05   Barely barely or you get like five iPads.

00:32:08   Yes.

00:32:09   (laughs)

00:32:10   Probably not even that many.

00:32:11   But the reason this matters is what you argue, John,

00:32:14   in your super car, halo car thing.

00:32:17   That like, it matters whether Apple is treating

00:32:20   its high-end well if you are a Mac user at all.

00:32:24   Because if Apple is neglecting significant portions

00:32:28   of its user base for the Mac lineup,

00:32:30   and you are a Mac user, or you are heavily invested

00:32:33   in the Mac as a platform,

00:32:35   that should be a warning sign for you.

00:32:36   That, like, that should set off warning bells

00:32:38   say like, wait a minute, maybe the health of my platform,

00:32:41   or the future of my platform is not as healthy

00:32:44   or guaranteed as I would like.

00:32:46   Because if they're neglecting this whole big area of it,

00:32:49   maybe there are worse things to come,

00:32:51   or maybe they aren't putting the right resources into it.

00:32:54   So it is totally relevant, whether you buy a Mac Pro or not,

00:32:57   how Apple treats their pro customers.

00:33:00   - Yeah, I'm just saying they crossed over the point now

00:33:02   where it has moved beyond and now is affecting

00:33:06   a broader base of people. It's kind of like as if they were still selling the original Dodge Viper,

00:33:12   like the original original Dodge Viper. It had not changed in any way. And it would be like,

00:33:17   "Well, it's a great halo car for Dodge or Chrysler." But eventually it becomes an embarrassment,

00:33:22   because the original Viper was a terrible car in so many ways. And it just can't compete with today's

00:33:27   supercars. It would be like, "Oh, your halo car for Dodge can be beaten off the line by a Volkswagen

00:33:35   GTI now. I mean, it's just be—or even a lesser car. It stops being a halo car when

00:33:42   it loses in single-threaded performance to the two run-of-the-mill computers.

00:33:47   So anyway, so no Mac Pro, not surprising. No Mac Mini, not surprising. No iMac, almost

00:33:55   entirely not surprising. That leaves us with the portable Macs. So the MacBook Pro, as

00:34:02   I was talking about a few minutes ago, MacBook Pros looking really good. Aesthetically it's

00:34:08   looking really good. I think what they've done is really cool. The touch bar looks great.

00:34:14   We can go through this line by line. But man, it's to the point that between this external

00:34:21   display, which actually we should talk about as well, that I have at work, the 4K display

00:34:25   I have at work, and these new MacBook Pros, I'm starting to doubt my newfound love for

00:34:33   my desktop iMac existence, because I love this 5K iMac.

00:34:36   I love it to death.

00:34:37   But I just can't help but think to myself, "Well, you know, I could get one of these

00:34:40   4K or maybe the fancy 5K LG display.

00:34:43   I could get one of these new MacBook Pros."

00:34:46   Life could be pretty good that way.

00:34:48   So I don't know.

00:34:49   One of you guys is probably upset about this, so talk me out of spending money I don't have

00:34:54   on a computer I don't need.

00:34:56   - I'm probably the most upset,

00:34:57   but Marco can go first and say why he likes them.

00:34:59   (laughing)

00:35:00   - So I will go back to your earlier point,

00:35:03   which I will, I'm probably not done talking

00:35:04   about this point yet,

00:35:06   but basically the touch bar looks really cool.

00:35:09   I'm sure it's going to be a really big deal

00:35:11   for people when they are working on their laptops,

00:35:13   and no doubt that is a lot of people a lot of the time.

00:35:17   However, it is not on every laptop.

00:35:20   Apple sells a lot of the MacBook Air class computers.

00:35:25   And so for everyone who bought the MacBook

00:35:27   adorable slash MacBook One,

00:35:29   or for everyone who buys the old,

00:35:32   or kind of still for sale but old MacBook Air,

00:35:35   or the new, whatever we're gonna call

00:35:38   the low end configuration of the MacBook.

00:35:40   Names in the chat that I liked a lot so far

00:35:43   are MacBook Escape, or the Effinbook.

00:35:46   (laughing)

00:35:47   I think MacBook Escape is part of my favorite one.

00:35:50   but oh, the Air Pro and the F and Pro were also very good.

00:35:55   But MacBook escape is really good.

00:35:56   Anyway, so all those people, that's a lot of Mac buyers,

00:36:01   not to mention all the desktop buyers.

00:36:02   And granted, I know laptops are more popular than desktops,

00:36:04   so I know the desktop buyers don't count for as much,

00:36:06   but all those people and the entire Mac user base

00:36:11   that has a computer already before today

00:36:14   does not have a touch bar.

00:36:17   And even if you are one of the people

00:36:20   who has one of the new MacBook Pros with the touch bar

00:36:24   that is only actually accessible to you

00:36:27   when you are using it in its regular mode.

00:36:29   So not in clamshell mode at a desk,

00:36:32   not as a second screen with a main screen

00:36:35   and an external keyboard and mouse.

00:36:36   Only when you're using those particular models of computer

00:36:39   and only when you're using them right on them

00:36:41   in normal quote laptop mode.

00:36:45   That is when the touch bar can be used.

00:36:48   It is going to be a really great convenience

00:36:51   for the people who use it in that way,

00:36:53   but I don't think it's going to radically take over

00:36:56   the Mac experience yet and become like a must-have accessory

00:37:00   until it is available across the entire lineup,

00:37:03   laptops and desktops in some form.

00:37:06   That might become more interesting then,

00:37:08   when you can kind of assume that all modern Macs have it,

00:37:11   but you can't assume that today

00:37:13   as either a user or a developer.

00:37:14   So I think it's gonna take a while

00:37:16   before that becomes a must-have thing.

00:37:18   It will be a convenience from day one,

00:37:20   and surely, Apple's apps having it built in is nice.

00:37:24   That's a lot of apps that people use on the Mac,

00:37:28   are Apple's built-in apps, so that's good.

00:37:30   But it's gonna take a while.

00:37:32   Like when the first Retina MacBooks came out in 2012,

00:37:36   it took a long time for most of what you saw on screen

00:37:40   to be Retina.

00:37:41   It took a couple years at least for apps and websites

00:37:43   and everything to update.

00:37:45   For the touch bar, it's gonna take a while

00:37:47   before you can really get into using it

00:37:49   with many of your apps and everything.

00:37:50   So I would say, for you Casey, looking at these today

00:37:53   and feeling bad you don't have one,

00:37:55   it's the kind of thing where if you're buying a new laptop,

00:37:58   if you were buying one anyway,

00:38:00   then I think you should consider the touch bar

00:38:03   as an important thing to have, probably.

00:38:06   And all this should be prefaced by saying

00:38:09   that none of the three of us were at the event,

00:38:11   none of the three of us have review units,

00:38:13   So none of the three of us have ever touched these

00:38:15   or handled these or seen these in real life.

00:38:17   So all this could be out the window the first time

00:38:20   that the world kind of gets more experience with these

00:38:23   and we know more about them and how they work in reality.

00:38:25   But I would say probably that if you're buying today

00:38:29   or if you recently bought something

00:38:30   and you don't want to buy another thing,

00:38:32   you don't really have to feel bad yet

00:38:34   that you don't have this touch bar

00:38:35   because it's gonna be a while before apps can assume

00:38:38   that a lot of people have it and it's gonna be a while

00:38:40   before a lot of apps take advantage of it.

00:38:42   And we still don't know how much of a must-have thing

00:38:45   it will be in practice until these things are out

00:38:48   for a while and we can kind of look more objectively

00:38:49   after it's kind of, after the cool has kind of rubbed off

00:38:52   and we've either used them ourselves

00:38:54   or we know people who have used them

00:38:55   and we've gotten some long-term opinions

00:38:57   from ourselves or others about how useful

00:38:59   this actually is in practice.

00:39:01   So for now, you don't need to feel bad.

00:39:03   - You should feel bad not because you don't have

00:39:05   a touch bar, but because you don't have a MacBook Pro

00:39:09   with like modern internals, it's way faster than the one you have now. So that bad feeling remains.

00:39:15   So question for both of you, and I'll start with Marco, do you think that a keyboard with a touch

00:39:22   bar will ever exist for a desktop Mac? Or do you think it will always, always, always be for

00:39:30   laptops? And if yes, if you think it will one day exist for desktop Mac, would Apple just completely

00:39:38   Go bananas and make it wired only or do you think it would be just basically a revision of the smart keyboard as it is

00:39:43   today I

00:39:44   Honestly don't know

00:39:46   I'm leaning towards no and and no one's gonna like the reason why but I'm leaning towards no and

00:39:53   You probably do we all know the reason I'm leaning towards no because you know a I think

00:40:01   putting the Touch Bar as it exists today into something the size and price of the Magic Keyboard

00:40:08   I think would be very challenging and there's probably a lot of constraints there many of which are self-imposed by Apple

00:40:15   But I basically don't like I don't see them wanting to make their keyboard bigger

00:40:19   I don't see the market having much tolerance for them making their keyboard more expensive

00:40:23   It's already pretty expensive, and I don't really see them

00:40:26   You know wanting to have multiple models of keyboard that they sell

00:40:30   I mean they can barely sell peripherals at all anymore.

00:40:33   So, you know, I don't see that happening.

00:40:35   But ultimately the biggest reason why I don't honestly see this happening,

00:40:39   even if they could get over the technical stuff,

00:40:41   - Here it comes. - is that I just don't think Apple

00:40:43   gives a damn about desktops anymore.

00:40:45   And that's not to say they're never gonna make one again.

00:40:48   But I just think the focus, I mean, look,

00:40:51   you can barely get Tim Cook to pretend to care about the Mac.

00:40:55   At all. All Macs.

00:40:57   You know, there's a reason why Tim didn't say a lot today about the Mac.

00:41:01   You know, that was delegated to Phil and Craig because they, I'm pretty sure, care deeply

00:41:06   about the Mac.

00:41:07   Like, they seem like they're really, like, Mac champions inside the company at the very

00:41:11   high level.

00:41:12   But Tim, I don't think is, I don't think Tim cares.

00:41:16   I don't think he even hides that very well.

00:41:18   Like, I don't think he even honestly tries.

00:41:20   I don't think Tim cares.

00:41:23   And so as long as the company is led by Tim,

00:41:26   I don't see the Max making substantial advances.

00:41:31   And what I see instead is what we see today,

00:41:34   which is they're gonna keep doing what they can do

00:41:39   to move things along occasionally

00:41:41   to be thinner, lighter, better, faster, right?

00:41:44   That's what they do.

00:41:46   But I don't see a time under Tim Cook's rule,

00:41:49   which is probably gonna be long,

00:41:51   I don't see a time of this happening here

00:41:55   where Tim is going to decide that the Mac

00:41:58   really needs a lot of effort put into it

00:42:00   and it needs major resources and major prioritization.

00:42:04   I just don't see that happening.

00:42:06   So I don't think they're going to put in

00:42:10   the lots of work that it would take

00:42:12   and possible profit cannibalization of other products

00:42:16   to meaningfully enable this on desktops.

00:42:19   I just don't see it happening. I wish it would, but I just don't.

00:42:24   Let's assume for just one moment that you're right, that Tim either doesn't care about

00:42:29   the Mac, or let's even go so far as to say he freaking hates the Mac.

00:42:33   I'm not saying he hates it. What I'm saying is, he's obviously not a Mac person. I'm pretty

00:42:40   sure he has said on the record multiple times that he does his work on iPads anyway. So

00:42:44   So I basically, I don't think he uses Macs very often,

00:42:46   if at all, and I think he is very much profit focused,

00:42:51   and he looks at where Apple can make the most profit

00:42:54   and diverts resources there,

00:42:56   and things that make still good profit but just less

00:43:00   are kind of out of his field of vision,

00:43:03   I think, most of the time.

00:43:04   So basically, I just don't think Tim gives a lot of thought

00:43:07   to the Mac, and I don't think it's a priority for him.

00:43:10   - All right, so let's assume that's true.

00:43:11   in any degree of aggressiveness. He hates the Mac or maybe he just doesn't really care.

00:43:17   Maybe it's just another line item, like you said. Let's assume any one of those is true.

00:43:21   He's a pretty smart man from everything we can tell. Don't you think he would trust in

00:43:28   his lieutenants and those who do care for the Mac to carry it forward? Like, I don't view Tim

00:43:35   as the thing standing in the way of the Mac being this perfect device that you're excited to

00:43:41   buy a new one every six months or what have you.

00:43:44   I really don't think Tim's the problem here.

00:43:46   I think it's just that Apple is doing what they think is best.

00:43:51   I think you had said, Marco, laptops are the max that everyone buys.

00:43:57   We're weird buying desktops, and super weird for YouTube buying cheese graters and trash

00:44:02   cans.

00:44:03   So I don't think Tim is the problem.

00:44:05   I think it's just that this is where the users are, so why not cater to the 90%?

00:44:10   - Well, it's debatable that there's even a problem.

00:44:13   I mean, the job of the CEO is to be forward-looking.

00:44:15   It's like, is this a product line

00:44:16   that's in ascension or in decline?

00:44:18   And clearly, desktop PCs and laptop PCs

00:44:20   in that whole market are in decline

00:44:22   compared to smartphones and possibly even tablets.

00:44:25   And so he's trying to be forward-looking.

00:44:26   - But not for Apple.

00:44:28   That's the thing.

00:44:29   They're not in decline for Apple.

00:44:30   They're in decline for everyone else,

00:44:32   but until Apple stopped updating them for three years,

00:44:34   they weren't in decline for Apple.

00:44:35   Like, Apple has this entire market

00:44:37   that it could keep taking share from.

00:44:39   It's a big market.

00:44:40   it was declined relative to the rest of their business,

00:44:42   'cause the rest of their business was growing much faster.

00:44:43   At this point, service revenue is more than Mac revenue,

00:44:46   right, because service revenue is growing,

00:44:47   and guess what, it just passed Mac revenue, right?

00:44:49   So if you are looking where the next big,

00:44:51   where is the next big product that's gonna go

00:44:54   on a big growth trajectory gonna come from,

00:44:57   it's not the PC, it's not the Mac,

00:44:59   that's what Apple currently thinks.

00:45:01   And so, again, it's debatable whether long-term,

00:45:03   this is an incorrect choice.

00:45:04   I think we're in the painful period now where it's like,

00:45:06   well, look, are you gonna do Macs

00:45:07   or you're not gonna do Macs?

00:45:08   Apple's like, "Oh no, we're gonna do Macs."

00:45:11   But they're doing them not with the gusto,

00:45:13   meaning not with the investment that they used to do them.

00:45:16   And to get back to Casey's question,

00:45:18   do I think they're gonna do a keyboard

00:45:21   with a touch bar on it?

00:45:24   The Apple that was still investing heavily in the Mac,

00:45:28   where the Mac was like super important and central,

00:45:31   even as the iPhone was growing and the iPod

00:45:34   and all these other businesses

00:45:35   were obviously where the big growth was,

00:45:38   not too many years ago, Apple was still heavily investing

00:45:41   in the Mac because those growing ones started off small

00:45:44   and the iPod one did a hump and went back down, right?

00:45:47   And so it was like, well, the Mac, you know,

00:45:48   we gotta keep investing in the Mac

00:45:50   'cause the iPod looks great

00:45:51   and it's this big business for us,

00:45:52   but actually we could see it's on the way back down.

00:45:54   Oh, the iPhone's looking great

00:45:55   and it's on its way back up.

00:45:56   But if you were to look at those line graphs,

00:45:58   the Mac was still in the mix.

00:46:00   Certain point, the phone just took off

00:46:03   and now every single graph is like,

00:46:05   here's the iPhone company

00:46:06   And then there's some lines down there

00:46:09   near the horizontal axis.

00:46:11   And those lines are like service revenue, Macintosh,

00:46:13   like just crap like that.

00:46:14   And once that happens, it's hard to justify.

00:46:19   Is it the right thing for the CEO to do

00:46:21   to continue to invest that much proportionally

00:46:24   in the Mac as you used to?

00:46:25   And it's clear that they're not, right?

00:46:27   And so the old Apple, now I'm saying like good old days,

00:46:29   but the old Apple with the old Apple mix of products

00:46:31   and revenue and profits, right?

00:46:33   that Apple would have had touch bar keyboards

00:46:36   in this presentation today, like guaranteed.

00:46:39   Because like Marco said,

00:46:41   what the hell is the point of this thing?

00:46:42   Even people who have laptops,

00:46:43   when they sit them at their desk,

00:46:45   you know, you're not like,

00:46:47   laptops are bad ergonomically to sit in front of all day.

00:46:50   The keyboard should not be touching the display.

00:46:52   Like it's like that because it's a portable device.

00:46:53   And you know, when you use it portably,

00:46:55   that's what you got to go with.

00:46:55   But if you're sitting at a desk,

00:46:57   your laptop is off to the side,

00:46:59   you have a second monitor or your laptop is up on a stand,

00:47:01   but then you can't use that keyboard

00:47:02   and you're using a big keyboard.

00:47:03   like the touch bar can't be part of the quote unquote Mac experience if the only

00:47:07   place that exists is on a keyboard attached to a laptop period.

00:47:10   So the old Apple would have had it because the old Apple was investing in the Mac

00:47:13   much more for comprehensible reasons, not like out of spite or meanness or

00:47:18   whatever. Now, if you were to have this discussion with Tim Cook and try to

00:47:22   convince him that it is important to continue to invest in the Mac, you can't

00:47:25   say it's because the Mac is going to be proportionally a larger percentage of

00:47:29   Apple's profit and revenue in the future because it probably isn't.

00:47:31   but you could make the argument that even though it looks small, and the argument I

00:47:34   think we've made, even though it looks small and it's not going to come out of nowhere

00:47:38   and become a big thing, it is, as many people have pointed out on Twitter and said it with

00:47:42   various metaphors or whatever, the foundation of so many other things that Apple does. You've

00:47:46   got the HaloCar factor for having the highest performance computing device. You've got the

00:47:51   fact that the development for the platform that's most important to your company is done

00:47:55   on Macs, right? You've got the historical loyalty and fan base. You've got the alpha

00:48:01   geeks creatives type angle, which we can talk about when we talk about the Microsoft Studio.

00:48:06   There are lots of reasons not having to do with how much they sell or how much their

00:48:10   profit is that the Mac is really important. And I could make that argument pretty strongly

00:48:14   to Tim Cook. And I bet people are trying to make that argument. But that argument relies

00:48:18   on a lot of assumptions, or you have to be convinced that if this and this and this,

00:48:21   therefore this, you can't back it up by saying, look, I don't even need to convince you of

00:48:25   like human psychology or customer loyalty or other things like that.

00:48:30   I can just show you the lines on a graph with dollar signs attached to them and you can

00:48:33   be convinced.

00:48:34   You have to go to a more touchy feely argument to convince Tim Cook to invest more in the

00:48:38   Mac than they are currently investing.

00:48:39   And I'm hoping the people who are making that argument inside Apple are winning and that

00:48:45   what we're just seeing here is a course correction that they haven't quite corrected all the

00:48:50   way and a couple of the Intel delays mess things up and they'll be re-certainted in

00:48:54   next year when they've inevitably produced these Skylake Mac Pros someday, maybe, possibly.

00:49:00   Is it inevitable?

00:49:01   Oh, I don't know. I backtracked from the inevitable saying the potential Mac Pro that we

00:49:08   might—you know, they could still turn this around and sort of get back on an even keel, but

00:49:12   the lack of a touch bar external keyboard is a perfect example of how Apple is just not

00:49:19   investing as much in the Mac as they used to. And it's, I think it is an argument to be had of whether that is

00:49:25   smart or not smart. But as fans of Macs, as all of us on this podcast are friends of Macs,

00:49:30   it is painful to see the product that used to be

00:49:32   so important to the company being so much less important now.

00:49:37   I don't know if I would go that far at all. Just because

00:49:42   they're not updating desktop Macs with the speed or efficacy that you two approve of doesn't mean they don't care about

00:49:49   the Mac. Or any Mac. The laptops weren't updated forever either. Well, yeah, but I

00:49:54   think a lot of that was, obviously none of us know, but if I were to wager a

00:49:59   guess, that was relying on Intel to give them a decent reason to make an update,

00:50:04   or perhaps, let's assume that wasn't the issue, maybe they were just trying to get

00:50:09   this pretty darn fancy Touch Bar tech and the fancy Touch ID tech, which

00:50:15   apparently is basically a mini Apple watch within the device, within the MacBook Pro.

00:50:21   That can't have been easy. So I don't think it's fair to characterize Apple as not caring

00:50:29   about the Mac or caring that much less about the Mac.

00:50:32   It's not about caring. It's investment. It's not care. It's not personify the company.

00:50:37   It's like, how much money and resources do you put into this? It's investment. It's not

00:50:41   like we max feelings are hurt or whatever it's a choice of out resource

00:50:44   allocation right and that's the that's the argument you're making towards us

00:50:47   and I feel like like the perfect example is like even if we buy everything you're

00:50:51   saying about the touch bar and and being difficult or whatever it's apparently

00:50:55   ready to announce now they could have announced keyboards right alongside it

00:50:58   but you know if they felt that was important part of the Mac experience and

00:51:01   I have and speaking of the touch bar I want to the next topic on a move to is

00:51:04   specifically about touch bar but if we can get done gnashing our teeth over the

00:51:08   Mac investment. Well, but that's the thing is I really don't, I guess there's no way

00:51:13   that I'm going to convince you that you're wrong and there's certainly no way you're

00:51:16   going to convince me that I'm wrong, but I just, for the record, there's one of the three

00:51:20   of us that thinks that there are investments happening to the Macs. I am, as it sits right

00:51:25   now, I feel like I'm more desktop Mac guy than a portable Mac guy, but I am really excited

00:51:32   about the MacBook Pros, and that is what most Mac users use. Almost everyone uses MacBook

00:51:39   Pros. Or perhaps the Airs, which at this point are nears makes no difference to the Pros,

00:51:43   I mean the Pro is effectively an Air. I don't think it's fair to characterize this as a

00:51:47   lack of investment. I don't think it's fair of the three of us to say, "Oh, putting a

00:51:52   mini Apple Watch next to a mini Retina display on a box that's physically smaller, that has

00:51:58   better battery life, that is quicker. These are all worthwhile investments. And I don't

00:52:04   think it's fair that a bunch of nerds are getting butthurt about the fact that this

00:52:08   isn't the thing that they wanted Apple to invest in.

00:52:11   No, that's not what this is about at all. Even if we ignore all of what we think Apple's

00:52:15   philosophy is and how they choose to invest because we don't know where their money goes

00:52:18   because we don't have that level of granularity. Ignore all that and just treat Apple as a

00:52:21   black box and look at the products they release and when they release them. The release cadence

00:52:26   of Macs has changed. They release them less often, which means that the existing ones

00:52:31   that you can buy are worse relative to other things, and they also keep selling the old

00:52:35   ones for much longer. That is arguably a fact. You could say that's not because they're not

00:52:40   investing as much. In fact, they're investing even more, but that dictates that they have

00:52:44   to have bigger gaps between products. That is probably the only argument you can make,

00:52:47   because it actually costs so much more money to do the Touch Bar than the other things

00:52:50   they did with Macs. But I don't really buy that either. The MacBook Pros that were out

00:52:53   there on the market were behind. The 15 inch MacBook Pro was an embarrassing product to

00:52:58   sell us like this used to be the best like in the presentation like the best MacBook

00:53:01   Pro now we made it even better. They used to be able to do that pitch because when they

00:53:04   replaced them the old one was still pretty good. The old one was a piece of crap. What

00:53:08   the hell was it? Ivy Bridge or Haswell whatever the hell it had in it?

00:53:11   It was Haswell. Like it's ridiculous like that's not and that's we can't we can argue

00:53:16   about what the cause of that was but on the outside we can see that's the case. That 15

00:53:20   inch MacBook Pro was not a pro product was not the worth the price they were buying for

00:53:23   It wasn't Mac Pro levels of bad, but it was bad.

00:53:26   And this is their flagship product.

00:53:27   And so of course when they make a new one,

00:53:28   it's thinner, faster, better.

00:53:30   Like, yeah, that's great.

00:53:31   It's thinner, faster, better.

00:53:32   We totally agree with all that.

00:53:33   Of course, when they compare it to the old models,

00:53:35   it's like, oh, come on.

00:53:36   Look how much faster it is than our old Mac Pro Pro.

00:53:38   You know why?

00:53:38   'Cause your old Mac Pro Pro sucked.

00:53:39   That's why it's so much better.

00:53:41   Like, of course, like, we know, like, and again,

00:53:44   I know this is sounding negative,

00:53:46   I'm gonna get even more negative in a little bit.

00:53:48   These are good machines, right?

00:53:51   But what I'm arguing against Casey is,

00:53:53   I'm trying to convince you that regardless of what we think about these machines, which

00:53:56   I think they're pretty darn good, and we'll talk about that eventually, I promise.

00:54:01   I don't think you can say that Apple is putting the same amount of resources into the Mac

00:54:07   as they used to, because the proof is in the products that they release and when they release

00:54:11   them.

00:54:12   And we can argue about what the causes are and stuff like that, but I don't think there's

00:54:14   an argument to be had that they're doing the same as they used to.

00:54:17   It's not fair to say that they're putting the same amount of investment in as they used

00:54:22   I concur. But what I'm hearing, which maybe is a misinterpretation on my part, is what I'm hearing is,

00:54:29   "Oh, they're ignoring the Mac. The Mac is on life support. Nobody cares about the Mac. Tim Cook hates the Mac."

00:54:34   Like, I don't see that.

00:54:36   You said all those things, not us.

00:54:38   That's true.

00:54:40   I don't know. I feel like you're crapping all over the You collective, you, and not just you two.

00:54:46   I mean, I saw a lot of just grumbling going on today

00:54:50   on Twitter, like I feel like everyone's just getting grumpy

00:54:53   about, oh, touchdown tech.

00:54:55   Everyone's getting grumpy about the Mac.

00:54:57   And now I'm back, I'm back, I'm back.

00:54:59   - Wait, tech's the one that you like, right?

00:55:01   - Correct.

00:55:02   - Or is it the two Ds or whatever?

00:55:04   - That's exactly right, yeah.

00:55:06   So everyone's getting so upset about,

00:55:09   oh, they're not investing enough in the Mac.

00:55:11   And I just, personally, I don't see it that way at all.

00:55:14   I agree, Jon, that certainly there was a dark period.

00:55:18   Perhaps I shouldn't be sweeping the dark period under the rug as quickly or as emphatically

00:55:23   as I am right now.

00:55:25   But to me, this is a clear sign that the Mac matters.

00:55:30   And I mean, this has got to have been—like this Touch Bar, which I really need to shut

00:55:34   up so we can move on to that—the Touch Bar has got to be an unbelievably cool piece of

00:55:38   technology.

00:55:39   and Touch ID as well, that's got to have been hard to create.

00:55:44   And again, Touch ID apparently is being controlled by a mini watchOS.

00:55:48   And I can't imagine getting an ARM chip that's controlling the Touch ID to cooperate

00:55:54   and behave nicely with the Intel chip that's controlling the rest of the Mac.

00:55:58   That can't have been terribly easy.

00:56:00   That must have been difficult to do.

00:56:04   Can they not have a little bit of time to do that?

00:56:06   - They can if they just release other Macs in between.

00:56:09   - Yeah, and here's the thing, by the way, Casey,

00:56:11   it's worth pointing out here,

00:56:13   there's this kind of distortion here

00:56:14   that I see a lot in corporate culture,

00:56:16   especially in Tim Cook's Apple,

00:56:19   that it is indeed a lot of work what they did.

00:56:23   The team worked really hard on this, they did.

00:56:26   And they should be commended in some kind of prize ceremony

00:56:29   for how hard they worked on a technical level.

00:56:30   That's very impressive.

00:56:31   However, that doesn't either A, absolve them

00:56:35   of the rest of the neglect of the Mac line

00:56:38   and the neglect of this line in the meantime,

00:56:40   that was clearly bad management of the lineup

00:56:43   and of the whatever the supply chain,

00:56:45   whatever led to these long spans

00:56:47   where these things haven't updated

00:56:48   and whatever's leading to the Mac Pro and Mac Mini

00:56:50   and iMac still not being updated.

00:56:53   So it doesn't absolve that.

00:56:56   And also, you don't get automatic reward

00:56:59   just for trying something difficult,

00:57:01   just for trying something complicated and new.

00:57:03   it might well be that the touch bar

00:57:06   might end up being awesome.

00:57:08   We might look back on this time and say,

00:57:09   "Man, we can't believe that we ever lived without this.

00:57:12   "This was such a revolution."

00:57:14   First of all, we don't know that yet.

00:57:15   It might and it might not,

00:57:17   and it doesn't absolve them of the other problems.

00:57:20   Like, there are some downsides to these new releases,

00:57:22   which we'll get to, but one of the biggest ones

00:57:24   that people are upset about is that these cost

00:57:25   a lot more than they used to, and that's not insignificant.

00:57:29   And things were taken away.

00:57:31   So, you know, certainly there's going to be people

00:57:34   who are upset because in certain ways,

00:57:37   they got worse for them.

00:57:39   And it doesn't matter.

00:57:40   Like, if you were buying these things,

00:57:42   if you were buying MacBook Airs in bulk

00:57:45   and you had to have them hit a certain price point

00:57:47   and now you can't do that anymore, then the fact that--

00:57:50   - Yeah, you can 'cause they're still selling them.

00:57:51   - Well, but you know, basically everyone has,

00:57:56   whenever Apple releases something new,

00:57:58   these days especially, but this is not that new.

00:58:01   There's always pluses and minuses, right?

00:58:04   There's like, you move mostly steps forward,

00:58:07   but usually a couple steps back or sideways.

00:58:10   And in this release, there is a lot of cool new stuff.

00:58:13   They did get seemingly really impressively thin and light.

00:58:17   The battery is still a question mark,

00:58:21   but their reported specs are still reasonable.

00:58:24   So I assume the battery life won't be terrible.

00:58:26   I assume it'll be pretty good.

00:58:27   And so if they're able to achieve this thin and lightness with those battery gains, then

00:58:32   that's great.

00:58:33   So that's great improvement, right?

00:58:35   The touch bar is mostly great.

00:58:37   It is probably going to be bad to lose escape keys for a lot of people.

00:58:41   I think the idea that only nerds use the escape key I think is wrong.

00:58:46   I think lots of people –

00:58:47   But it's still there.

00:58:48   It's just not – oh my God.

00:58:49   We'll get there.

00:58:50   We'll get there.

00:58:51   And I think also a lot of people were simply asking Apple, "Can you please put modern

00:58:55   guts inside your laptops and make them, you know, faster and everything, and Apple delivered

00:59:00   this thing that they weren't asking for and then raised the prices. Even if you are

00:59:06   impressed by the Touch Bar, and I think for the most part it probably will end up being

00:59:09   a good thing, the reason why so many people are mad, like people have good reasons to

00:59:14   be upset with this update because not every product that needs an update got one, and

00:59:20   the update to these products that did get updated

00:59:23   came with additional costs and a couple of new downsides.

00:59:27   Like, what if you actually used the SD card slot

00:59:30   or the HDMI port or things,

00:59:32   like there are a lot of things were removed too.

00:59:35   So you have ports that were removed,

00:59:37   you have a higher price, and you lost some keys

00:59:41   that you might have preferred to be hardware.

00:59:42   So basically, even though it made advances,

00:59:46   that doesn't make it invalid or unreasonable

00:59:49   for people to complain about the ways

00:59:50   and wish it got worse for them.

00:59:53   - No, it doesn't, but I feel like what I'm hearing,

00:59:57   and it's not just from you guys,

00:59:59   but you're the only two on the phone,

01:00:00   and so that's why I'm busting your butts so hard,

01:00:04   is what I feel like I'm hearing is,

01:00:06   well, what we really wanted was a new processor,

01:00:10   maybe more RAM, maybe more hard drive space,

01:00:12   and then don't touch anything else for the love of God.

01:00:16   - No, no, no, no, no.

01:00:17   I mean, I don't think anyone said,

01:00:19   Like, I think Marco talked around it before, but basically, I said it last week, if you're

01:00:25   going to have this line of products, and I think, who was it who had their webpage that

01:00:30   listed all of the, Stephen Hackett, listed all of the laptops, sort of in order of the

01:00:36   lines, if you're going to have all these laptops from like under a thousand all the way up

01:00:39   to like big bucks for the big one, right?

01:00:42   And they do have a pretty good spread of prices, right?

01:00:45   If you decide you're going to do that, and you're going to sell one of them with an on-retina

01:00:47   display with old guts and old ports and you're going to sell some of them with the fancy

01:00:51   new ports and the new guts and the whole deal. The way to do it is not to leave ancient computers

01:00:58   around and just be like, "Well, this one's never going to get USB-C because it's not

01:01:01   worth updating. We're just going to keep selling the MacBook Air forever and ever and ever.

01:01:04   We'll update the guts every once in a while, but it's never going to be an overhaul."

01:01:08   The way with more investment, which I'm not going to say again, I don't like to say the

01:01:12   old Apple the old way because it makes it like, in the olden days, it's just a question

01:01:15   of how much investment.

01:01:16   The old way with more investment is fine,

01:01:19   you're gonna sell this lot of computers

01:01:20   from a thousand bucks to 4,000.

01:01:22   All of them get some minimum set of new features

01:01:26   rolled out together.

01:01:27   Like it's a rising tide lifts all boats.

01:01:29   If you're gonna keep selling,

01:01:30   same thing with the 101 MacBook,

01:01:31   which I think is gone now,

01:01:32   or is it still alive?

01:01:33   I forget. - It is finally gone.

01:01:35   - Anyway, like I said last week,

01:01:36   if you're gonna sell a super cheap laptop

01:01:39   with really low specs with an optical drive,

01:01:41   you also have to occasionally update that one.

01:01:43   Like you can't just say we're gonna keep selling

01:01:46   the old computer unmodified for a long, long time.

01:01:48   You should move the line up together,

01:01:50   which means you have a gradation of features

01:01:52   like the touch bar isn't gonna be on all of them.

01:01:53   I understand it's expensive, right?

01:01:55   And same thing with all the other features

01:01:56   and all the different things you bring out.

01:01:58   They're not all gonna have the P3 screen, right?

01:02:00   But the fact that retina still hasn't trickled down

01:02:04   to the lowest end model

01:02:05   because they wanna keep selling the old model,

01:02:07   like the really, really old crappy one,

01:02:09   mostly unmodified with only minor tweaks,

01:02:12   That does not speak well to the investment in the product line.

01:02:14   It's better to keep selling the cheaper computer, but continue to update them all

01:02:20   together in some cadence.

01:02:21   They get away with it on the phones because they only do like, you know, last year's

01:02:25   phone and then it kind of trails off at the end.

01:02:26   But even there, I think it's a problem.

01:02:28   That's where the strategy came from.

01:02:29   But with the Macs, like how many years has essentially that same quote unquote, same

01:02:34   MacBook Air with different guts been sold?

01:02:37   I mean, they even made the point now, which I look at the 13 inch MacBook Pro is now,

01:02:41   It's now more of an error than an error.

01:02:43   Isn't that amazing?

01:02:45   And yet we'll still sell that error

01:02:46   because the new MacBook Pro is $500 more expensive.

01:02:49   It would be better to have a cheaper, better MacBook Air.

01:02:54   Even if they wanna keep it non-retina,

01:02:57   make the screen better than it is.

01:02:58   It's a crappy screen.

01:03:00   I'm just trying to say, I'm trying to give them an out.

01:03:02   I'm not saying every product has to be awesome,

01:03:04   but you have to bring the products up together.

01:03:06   You can't have these two classes of like,

01:03:08   "Here are the good computers,

01:03:09   And here are the ones we've been selling for years that are pieces of crap.

01:03:12   And there's these weird--

01:03:12   But that's not the case, though.

01:03:15   What they're saying is, here's the brand new good computers that, quite frankly, aren't cheap.

01:03:19   And as one of you just said, they're less cheap now than they used to be.

01:03:24   And then if you want something that's more affordable, guess what?

01:03:28   It's probably going to be a little older on the inside.

01:03:30   It's like the difference between--

01:03:31   But it should be newer than it is, because the pricing doesn't make sense.

01:03:36   It's like the Mac Pro.

01:03:37   We understand the Mac Pro is an expensive computer,

01:03:39   but if you don't update the internals for three years,

01:03:40   it becomes embarrassing.

01:03:41   Now, the MacBook Air's internals have been updated

01:03:43   more than the Mac Pro's.

01:03:44   We have to give them that,

01:03:45   but it's still basically the same form factor,

01:03:47   and the internals are pretty old and slowish

01:03:49   compared to everything else.

01:03:51   Like, I mean, this to me, like this,

01:03:53   this is my fundamental just friction that I have

01:03:57   with the Tim Cook way of running Apple.

01:04:00   You know what would take real courage?

01:04:02   They talk about courage in the head-to-head suit

01:04:04   of a headphone jack.

01:04:05   What would take real courage

01:04:06   would be to take a temporary margin hit to make all of your products great.

01:04:11   As someone in the chat room is pointing out, like, it's hard to, I'm trying to give

01:04:16   the MacBook Air more credit than it probably deserves in terms of the specs and the money

01:04:19   because again, they have updated more than the Mac Pro, which is a low bar.

01:04:22   But if you, if you look at the PC internals you can get for the similar price, and again,

01:04:28   granted, the MacBook Air is a better computer, has nicer, you know, industrial design, so

01:04:31   on and so forth, it's just, it's just not keeping up with the rest of the line.

01:04:34   And the line just feels like have and have-nots.

01:04:37   It's like, you know, the iPad Air and the iPad Pros.

01:04:43   This gap exists everywhere, and it's a gap that reflects a level of desired investment,

01:04:50   because it's so much easier to keep selling the old models, or even just bumping the internals

01:04:55   of the old models, without fundamentally changing them.

01:04:57   Like, oh, well, we can bump the internals a little bit, but if we change to USB-C, that's

01:05:00   It's like a whole new thing and it requires more investment and all that other stuff.

01:05:06   And I don't want to put value judgments on it and like moral things and be like, "Tim

01:05:09   Cook doesn't care.

01:05:10   He's being mean to us."

01:05:11   I think it's just investment.

01:05:12   And again, I think the investment is justified by all of the tangible attributes of the MAC

01:05:17   line as compared to everything else.

01:05:21   Mostly the reason you hear me upset anyway is because I like the MAC, right?

01:05:26   And I can argue for why you should do this, not just because I like the MacBook, because

01:05:31   here's why it's actually important for Apple as a company.

01:05:33   Like I can make that argument too.

01:05:35   But personally speaking, it's because I like this product that's now getting less investment

01:05:38   and that's why I find it frustrating.

01:05:40   And it didn't help that they said hello again on the invitation, but as I said last week,

01:05:45   I was overhyped.

01:05:46   So you're taking one admittedly quite long data point, which is not updating the MacBook

01:05:52   Pro's effectively for like two or three years. Full stop. That was BS. That was terrible.

01:05:58   Shouldn't have happened. But you're taking that one data point as a line that says,

01:06:02   though the line with a huge downward slope that says, yeah, we don't care about the Mac.

01:06:05   Well, you've got the Mac Pro 2, you've got the Mac Mini, which has always been like that. And

01:06:09   we just excuse because it's always been like that. Right. Like, even the iMac has gone through

01:06:15   droughts. It's just it's on a good cycle now. Right. Even if you just want to pick like things

01:06:19   like peripherals and stuff, not making a new extended keyboard when they made the new

01:06:22   new key switches, stuff like that.

01:06:25   That's harder to make an argument for it

01:06:26   than everything else.

01:06:27   But anyway, I want to get off of this

01:06:28   'cause I think we're mostly just arguing,

01:06:30   the two of us arguing with you.

01:06:32   And I think the larger,

01:06:34   the larger, like this doesn't matter to most people.

01:06:37   There was the biggest outcry on Twitter

01:06:41   was from people who expect desktop Macs to come,

01:06:43   which is, you know,

01:06:45   like just because we didn't expect them to come

01:06:47   or definitely didn't expect them all

01:06:48   to be updated or anything,

01:06:50   doesn't mean it's not kind of like,

01:06:53   doesn't mean we're not tired of waiting for them as well.

01:06:56   And what you saw were people who like desktop Macs

01:06:59   complaining there weren't people,

01:06:59   people who don't like desktop Macs don't care.

01:07:01   Like who cares, who doesn't know?

01:07:01   They don't even know desktop Macs exists

01:07:03   as far as they're concerned, Macs are laptops

01:07:05   and they think the MacBook Airs are fine

01:07:06   and so on and so forth.

01:07:07   But we're computer enthusiasts and Mac fans

01:07:11   and desktop Mac fans and so of course we're upset about it.

01:07:14   It's separate argument of whether just because we're upset

01:07:17   that the products we like aren't getting updated,

01:07:19   Does that mean that Apple should update them more often?

01:07:23   But that explains the upset in this.

01:07:24   And I think the upset in this is not,

01:07:26   for the most part, for people who are thinking clearly,

01:07:28   the same as saying Apple should do what I want, right?

01:07:32   Because that's what you were getting at before.

01:07:34   We would like it if Apple did something different.

01:07:37   But you should just allow us to be upset that Apple is not

01:07:40   doing what we want.

01:07:41   And then we can have a separate discussion

01:07:42   about whether Apple should do this thing that we want,

01:07:45   whether it's good for Apple or good for computing or whatever.

01:07:47   I think I can turn that into a vague segue

01:07:51   into what I wanted to get into, which is the touch bar.

01:07:54   This is where Marco will put an ad or something.

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01:09:13   [MUSIC PLAYING]

01:09:16   So many years ago, one of my early--

01:09:19   maybe my first, but one of my early articles

01:09:22   for MacWorld Magazine, the back page article,

01:09:26   was about this fairly fanciful idea.

01:09:30   Again, I have this history to the back page of MacWorld

01:09:33   and MacUser Magazine that made me think of writing something

01:09:36   that I probably wouldn't even write in a blog post today,

01:09:38   in a print article back then, about the idea of a Mac laptop that you could use as a Mac,

01:09:48   but then you could somehow fold it over on itself, kind of like all those convertible,

01:09:53   like a lot of convertible PC laptops are like this.

01:09:55   Remember when they were making all those?

01:09:56   I bet they're still making them.

01:09:57   But you can fold it over and it turns into a tablet, basically.

01:10:00   And when you turn it into a tablet, however you want to do it, twisting the screen and

01:10:04   going down or folding it all the way backwards, when it's in tablet mode, it's basically an

01:10:08   an iPad, and when it's in Mac mode, it's a Mac.

01:10:11   And it was like, well, you've already got iOS running

01:10:13   on Intel and the simulator, and the conversion

01:10:18   would be kind of a neat thing.

01:10:19   We've seen lots of PC makers do it.

01:10:21   Apple could do a good job on the hinge mechanism

01:10:23   and make it very interesting and sturdy

01:10:26   and good to use in all these different scenarios.

01:10:28   And wouldn't that be an interesting kind of computer,

01:10:30   because that would deal with the dichotomy

01:10:33   that was then a hot topic, and it's still kind of a hot topic

01:10:36   between iOS and the Mac OS and all this other stuff.

01:10:40   And obviously, nothing came of that.

01:10:42   Windows continues to sell those convertibles.

01:10:44   Windows has converted its OS to be one unified OS for both

01:10:49   touch interface and everything else.

01:10:50   And again, we might talk about that later on a different show.

01:10:53   But setting that aside now, the idea

01:10:56   that you could run both iOS and what was then OS X or Mac OS X

01:11:01   at that time on the same computer

01:11:03   because iOS also runs on Intel.

01:11:05   What we have today with these things,

01:11:08   as you pointed out Casey,

01:11:09   is a Mac that runs macOS on its Intel processor.

01:11:14   And then off to the side, this little T1 processor

01:11:17   that is presumably ARM

01:11:19   and presumably runs something like iOS.

01:11:21   I mean, again, the core OS of both iOS 10

01:11:23   and both macOS and iOS is Darwin anyway.

01:11:26   But anyway, presumably that little chip is running in iOS,

01:11:28   that's running the touch bar and doing all this stuff.

01:11:31   Here we have a Mac that's essentially running two OSes on two different screens.

01:11:37   The only difference is the tablet mode is just this little skinny strip that goes along

01:11:42   the top of the thing, and then the Mac part gets the big thing at the top.

01:11:47   You look at this, and I joked, I was teasing Marco about this a couple of shows ago, just

01:11:51   you wait until the entire keyboard is one big screen for the people who don't mind

01:11:55   typing on glass.

01:11:56   Look at the evolution of the keyboards on these Macs going from big honking giant keys

01:12:01   that are like on the Apple extended 2 keyboard on the Mac portable, like big giant mechanical

01:12:05   key switch, pa-chunk, pa-chunk, pa-chunk.

01:12:07   And they just got squished and squished, and the plungers became butterfly hinges, became

01:12:12   dome switches.

01:12:13   They've just – the keys have just been descending into the thing, becoming like comically thinner

01:12:18   and smaller, like they've been rolled over by a steamroller year after year.

01:12:22   And now all of a sudden, one of the "keys" is a big flat screen that looks like the keys.

01:12:27   They did a really good job, by the way, of pattern matching them, so it's the same kind

01:12:30   of matte finish on both the screen and the keys, so it looks like it's a big key.

01:12:33   Anyway, and now all of a sudden one of them turns into a screen, and it's run by this

01:12:37   little processor that has an OS.

01:12:39   And someone did an animated GIF that I retweeted that was like, "Next year the number keys

01:12:43   are a screen.

01:12:44   Next year the top row of the QWERTY keyboard is keys.

01:12:46   Next year the next row of keys.

01:12:47   Next year the next row is the keys."

01:12:48   And eventually the whole bottom of the keys, then eventually the top screen goes away,

01:12:52   and you just have an iPad, right?

01:12:54   They're slowly, slowly making the Nintendo DS,

01:12:58   a dual screen thing, you know, by converting the keyboard.

01:13:01   And I'm not saying this is the inevitable direction they're going to go,

01:13:04   but it's hard to look at that touchpad, or the touch bar,

01:13:08   and if this touch bar has any legs at all, as a thing that people might want to do,

01:13:12   not to see this as like a weird transitional fossil,

01:13:15   and again, I don't want to totally get into the Microsoft Surface Studio thing,

01:13:20   But like this weird transition, possibly weird transitional fossil held up against

01:13:26   this, the surface studio where the whole freaking thing is one giant touch display.

01:13:31   Oh, and by the way, there's a keyboard when you need it.

01:13:33   One of those looks like they skipped to the end of this evolution.

01:13:36   Again, this may be a dead end in evolution.

01:13:38   Maybe they're wrong about this is the, you know, the future of computing or whatever.

01:13:41   Maybe they're wrong about the OS.

01:13:42   Maybe they're wrong about so many other things.

01:13:45   But for one of the first times in recent memory,

01:13:48   Apple looks to be making a more cautious bet

01:13:53   than Microsoft at least in this particular scenario.

01:13:56   And that's not necessarily bad

01:13:58   because I think the cautious bet,

01:13:59   like the odds, I think the odds of the touch bar

01:14:01   being interesting and useful

01:14:02   are higher than the odds of the Surface Studio

01:14:05   being a runaway smash hit that saves Microsoft, right?

01:14:07   Or whatever, 'cause like it's safer.

01:14:11   I think it has a higher chance of success,

01:14:12   but I look at that touch bar and it's hard not to start thinking about putting screens

01:14:19   for the keyboard. Why is the touchpad, the trackpad not entirely a screen? The keyboard

01:14:23   is not a screen but is, as Marker would say, getting progressively worse as a keyboard

01:14:27   but as other people might say, getting progressively less keyboard-y because people don't care

01:14:31   about keyboards anymore and why not just make the whole thing a screen and then when you

01:14:34   do that, why do you have two screens? Why not just make one screen and you've just reinvented

01:14:37   the iPad again, but with a different OS.

01:14:40   So I think this is all, this seems like it's all eventually going to come to a head, and

01:14:46   I think we'll look back at this and be able to see the progression, but right now the

01:14:49   progression that we can see from the past is the keys are getting flatter, the things

01:14:55   are getting thinner, and now the limitations of keys have gotten to the point where they're

01:15:00   bringing some screens down into that area, and I'm not quite sure where those will end,

01:15:05   But Apple looks like the more iterative, let's say.

01:15:09   I don't want to say cautious or careful, because this is an interesting move, but it's definitely

01:15:13   more iterative than sort of leapfroggy than we're used to, I think.

01:15:19   I don't think that's a bad thing.

01:15:23   I don't want to really turn this into a Surface Studio discussion, but it is a fascinating

01:15:27   — I don't know if case study is the right way of looking at it — but it's fascinating

01:15:32   to see Microsoft just tripling down on this hybrid OS idea,

01:15:39   which to me seems utterly preposterous.

01:15:41   And I actually have installed Windows 10 on my work laptop,

01:15:44   because I've been doing a little C# API work.

01:15:48   And I got to tell you, I was expecting Windows 10

01:15:51   to be really good, because everyone I know that has run it

01:15:54   has said, oh, it's great.

01:15:55   It's a lot better.

01:15:56   They fixed a lot of the problems.

01:15:57   It's really good.

01:15:58   And I could go on for hours about how awful

01:16:01   I found Windows 10 to be, and in no small part because high DPI support is a joke at

01:16:07   best and non-existent at worst.

01:16:11   But that being said, all of a sudden with the Surface Studio, I sort of understand what

01:16:17   Microsoft is going for with this hybrid world where touch and non-touch OSs are one and

01:16:23   the same.

01:16:25   I think that that is, the Surface Studio is kind of the ultimate realization, to some

01:16:32   degree kind of a naked robotic horror, of Microsoft's strategy that let's make a

01:16:36   machine with this huge, what is it, it's a 27-inch monitor I believe, something like

01:16:40   that, it does matter, a huge monitor.

01:16:41   >> 28 inch I think.

01:16:42   >> Okay.

01:16:43   >> And I believe it's taller, right, because it's a different aspect ratio than what

01:16:45   we have.

01:16:46   >> Yeah, it's three by two.

01:16:47   >> Yeah, which I would love, honestly.

01:16:50   So let's make this very large, kind of contrary device where it's not widescreen like everything

01:16:56   else on the market is, and let's make it touch sensitive everywhere.

01:17:02   And that is kind of the ultimate realization of Microsoft's strategy.

01:17:07   And although I would give almost anything not to run Windows, I can understand why this

01:17:14   would be appealing.

01:17:16   I don't think I would ever want to have a computer that is a drafting table, so to speak,

01:17:20   but I can see how it would be really, really cool.

01:17:24   Similarly, I think this touch bar is kind of the ultimate realization of what Apple

01:17:31   thinks is the best idea for a "hybrid world," which is not as much that the screen is a

01:17:37   touchscreen, but more, "Hey, we'll give you a little separate touchscreen that you can

01:17:42   interact with and you can do cool stuff with."

01:17:45   And by the way, it's more than just buttons.

01:17:47   Like when we had seen the preview,

01:17:49   or the renderings for this,

01:17:51   I don't recall anyway having seen

01:17:53   that there was gonna be anything on here really,

01:17:54   but a bunch of just programmable buttons, if you will.

01:17:58   And there's all sorts of cool stuff that they show on this.

01:18:00   They show timelines in like Final Cut Pro,

01:18:02   or maybe it was a different app.

01:18:03   They showed kind of a cover flow version

01:18:07   of all the pictures that are in a folder

01:18:08   when you're looking in Finder.

01:18:09   Like there's some really trick, cool stuff.

01:18:12   - Cover flow will never die.

01:18:14   Was it, I forgot.

01:18:16   We always knew it was, well, the rumors were all an OLED screen.

01:18:19   So we kind of knew that there was going to be other stuff up there.

01:18:21   But like, I, to go back to what you said earlier, Casey, I think the key phrase

01:18:25   that I don't think is apt here is ultimate realization, because this is not

01:18:28   the ultimate realization of anything.

01:18:29   This is an iterative improvement and I think it's good.

01:18:32   And I think it's going to be really cool, but it's almost as if the more cool

01:18:37   this is, the more we will realize that limiting it to just a little strip is.

01:18:42   bad and that, you know, like, why is the whole trackpad not a screen? Why is the whole bottom

01:18:47   of the laptop not a screen? Why is the whole keyboard not a screen? And this is the point

01:18:50   we'll say, well, the whole keyboard is not a screen because typing on glass is terrible.

01:18:52   And then millions of millennials say, no, we love it. It's great. You know, and then it's like,

01:18:57   and then once you do that, it's like, well, then why is there a bottom screen and a top screen?

01:19:00   Why is it all one screen? And then you just like, it really feels, it's not the ultimate realization

01:19:04   or anything. The ultimate realization, if this idea turns out to be good of this computing idea,

01:19:09   not this laptop idea, but this computing idea,

01:19:12   using like the value system that is most in line

01:19:16   with probably mine and Marco's is the server studio,

01:19:20   which is just make the whole freaking thing

01:19:22   a big, giant, gorgeous touch screen,

01:19:24   but also give me a physical keyboard

01:19:25   for when I wanna type because I'm old

01:19:26   and I like to type on physical keyboards.

01:19:28   And when I'm not typing, I don't have to deal with that.

01:19:31   And there's no like separate region of the keyboard

01:19:33   that's also a screen and I can use seven hands

01:19:36   and 10 fingers and five elbows all at the same time

01:19:39   a little dial and like just, you know, that is the ultimate realization of idea.

01:19:42   Is it a good idea?

01:19:43   Does it work well?

01:19:44   Is the OS good?

01:19:45   Are there other intangibles that are stopping them?

01:19:47   Again, I think we do have to talk about the Surface Studio at some point, but the touch

01:19:50   bar is not the ultimate realization of any idea.

01:19:53   It is the next good iterative step along the lines of the idea that Apple is pursuing.

01:19:59   And I think it looks really cool and really awesome with some minor caveats, but it feels

01:20:06   like just one more step in it kind of it's transitional not that it makes me

01:20:10   feel not uncomfortable but like anticipatory like I like I'm waiting to

01:20:15   see what's next it's tantalizing in the like where does this all go where does

01:20:19   this lead because clearly this is not going to be the end this is clearly on

01:20:22   its way to something and you know it's like it's like a glimpse of the future

01:20:26   that is not yet here right the keyboards getting flatter we shoved a screen on it

01:20:31   but it's still kind of if you squint at this thing it's still kind of the shape

01:20:34   of the old computer and certainly the shape of Mac OS is still as separate from iOS as

01:20:39   it ever was.

01:20:40   And we don't, I don't know where it's going, but this is like, I feel like this is the

01:20:44   first step off of the path that the Mac has been going on to an acknowledgement that there

01:20:50   can be, not that they're, you know, merging the OSes or whatever, but just trying to reconcile

01:20:58   this world where we want to touch stuff and have touchscreen things with the world of

01:21:02   the Mac where we're not touching things, right? And how do we bring them together?

01:21:05   And this is honestly, this is the first Mac with a touchscreen, right? No other

01:21:09   Mac has had a screen that you touch. They've had touch pads and they've had

01:21:13   all the other hybrid things. "Hey, we want a touchscreen Mac, you got one!" Oh, by the

01:21:16   way, the screen is really thin and that just makes me think like where is this

01:21:19   going? What is the future of this? Like, surely this is not a holding

01:21:22   pattern that we stay in for another 15 years with a little strip on the

01:21:25   screen there. This has to lead to something and I'm excited to see where

01:21:29   that goes, but this machine makes me hunger to see what's next.

01:21:35   Quick aside about the Surface Studio, from everything I can tell it's using the exact

01:21:38   same processors as the iMac and it isn't out for another two months.

01:21:41   Yeah, no, that's not a super...

01:21:42   Like that machine, it's a separate topic.

01:21:45   Nintendo Switch, also, sorry if you're here to hear about Nintendo Switch, probably not

01:21:48   this week.

01:21:49   Nintendo Switch, Microsoft Surface Studio, they're on the list.

01:21:52   We will talk about them.

01:21:53   All right, so now you said nice things about the touchpad, a few minor annoying things

01:21:58   about the touchpad.

01:21:59   Now one fun thing about it, the customize thing, pure Apple feature, love that, you

01:22:04   can drag the little thing off the screen onto the touch bar, that's awesome, right?

01:22:08   That's like another one of those magical type of things, and they did, when you're in editing

01:22:12   mode where you want to edit the buttons to customize it, it's good that that's a feature

01:22:15   because customizing is great.

01:22:18   And they go into shaky mode, you know, like on iOS, when you're editing your springboard

01:22:23   icons, that's kind of like a UI idiom that Apple has coined and then now they use across

01:22:28   their product line to great effect.

01:22:30   When these things are in the mode where they're being edited, have them wiggle so it's clear

01:22:34   that you're in like editing mode and all the rules are different.

01:22:36   That's very clever, very good bit of UI that they've been smart to spread everywhere.

01:22:41   But the tricky bit on the little strip, the touch bar screen, is that they're using edge

01:22:47   to edge every single pixel of that thing to show the buttons because it's such a skinny

01:22:51   screen.

01:22:52   Like they're going all the way up from the top edge.

01:22:53   There's no margins they're leaving on it.

01:22:55   So they can't have the icons shake back and forth as if they're rotating like the

01:22:59   springboard icons do because they would be clipped on the top and bottom, and it would

01:23:06   break the illusion that they're keys when you saw them clipped by the screen edges.

01:23:09   So instead they shake, but only left and right.

01:23:13   Oh, is that right?

01:23:14   Okay, that's what I'm thinking of.

01:23:15   So they're in there and they're wiggling, and you don't know, it's something a little

01:23:18   off of it, but they're basically jostling up against each other like a bunch of peas

01:23:22   in a pod or whatever, but they can't wiggle up and down because the clip, which I thought

01:23:25   was a really clever way to solve that problem, because the problem is like we want to use

01:23:28   every pixel of this thing, but when we make them shake the other way, they clip top and

01:23:32   bottom and it destroys the illusion, so just make them shake side to side. I thought that

01:23:35   was super clever and adorable and they look cute when they do that and that's a great

01:23:38   feature.

01:23:39   And it's the same trick they use on the watch display too, because like on the watch, and

01:23:42   this is one of the things you could do with OLED, like one of the reasons OLED's so great

01:23:45   is that like black on OLED looks really black, and so you can more easily conceal the edges

01:23:52   of the actual screen, the actual pixels of the screen,

01:23:55   with the black margin around it.

01:23:57   So on the watch, interface elements go right up to the edge.

01:24:00   Like they tell you specifically in the interface guidelines

01:24:03   like you should design your screens that way,

01:24:04   don't leave any margin around your interface,

01:24:06   go right to the edges.

01:24:08   And then on the watch's physical hardware,

01:24:10   they just leave enough of a margin around the screen

01:24:12   to make that look right.

01:24:13   And so they're doing the same thing on the touch bar here,

01:24:15   which is one of the many parallels it has to the watch.

01:24:18   Because it appears to run a variant of watchOS,

01:24:22   and it's running on what appears to be a variant of the watch's S1 chip.

01:24:26   So…

01:24:27   It's totally different.

01:24:28   There's a T there instead of an S. Totally different price.

01:24:30   Right.

01:24:31   Right.

01:24:32   And the W one is different.

01:24:33   Yes.

01:24:34   Anyway, so yeah, it's a similar move there.

01:24:35   It's a genius move.

01:24:36   Like, you know, just we don't need the screen to be any bigger than this because the buttons

01:24:39   are just going to be that big.

01:24:40   So just make it look like the screen has a healthy margin and don't waste any pixels

01:24:43   and power on anything that's not, you know, necessary.

01:24:47   So margins giveth and margins taketh away.

01:24:49   Let us now discuss the escape button.

01:24:51   By the way, all the people, like, I didn't want to respond to all this on Twitter for

01:24:54   the past week because it seemed tiring, but now I'm going to do it in the podcast.

01:24:59   The point that we made either on the show last week or on Twitter about the escape key

01:25:03   was all about the fact of it being a physical key.

01:25:06   None of us on the show were saying that there was not going to be a little gray square with

01:25:10   the letters ESC in it in the upper left corner of that little screen.

01:25:14   Well, almost the upper left corner.

01:25:15   Yes, yes, I'm getting to that.

01:25:17   We all knew it would be there.

01:25:20   It's just that we were asking for a key because in our line of work it is a key that we hit

01:25:24   more often than probably the average person and it's nice to be able to reach up and feel

01:25:27   for it and so on and so forth.

01:25:28   So that was it.

01:25:29   It was not about like, people were saying when they showed the key, "Look, there's an

01:25:32   escape key.

01:25:33   You got your escape key."

01:25:34   It's like, it's not a key.

01:25:35   It's just a picture on a screen and we knew that was going to be there.

01:25:37   Anyway.

01:25:38   It's an escape zone.

01:25:39   Yes.

01:25:40   As for margins, the escape zone, the escape zone on the touch bar is not in the corner.

01:25:46   So if we want to, it's like, well okay, so it's not a physical button, but it's still

01:25:50   on the corner, and you can reach for and feel the corner of the screen, right?

01:25:54   Unfortunately, if you touch just the corner of the screen, you won't hit the escape button,

01:25:59   because that first centimeter or so of the touch bar is as far as I'm able to determine

01:26:04   completely inert.

01:26:05   I know it doesn't have a screen underneath it, I'm pretty sure it also doesn't have touch

01:26:08   sensors underneath it, although I see those things that aren't necessarily connected,

01:26:11   they could have put touch sensors under there but no screen.

01:26:13   Anyway, no screen is under there, so they can't physically draw the escape button against

01:26:18   the left edge of the touch bar.

01:26:20   And I'm pretty sure you can't touch there, which makes it kind of a shame because if

01:26:25   you're feeling for something to reach out to the corner to find the thing, the one part

01:26:29   you can feel for on a completely smooth touch bar screen is you can feel for the top edges

01:26:34   and the sides.

01:26:35   So I would love to be able to reach up to that corner and hit the escape zone on the

01:26:39   screen.

01:26:40   Yes.

01:26:41   hit the zone slightly over to the right from the escape zone. And I'm not particularly

01:26:48   happy about that because it's like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory because you

01:26:51   have like the one button I care about that's being replaced by a virtual button, the one

01:26:55   I hit the most often, at least it's in the corner and I'll be able to feel for it. But

01:26:59   now I can't feel for it. By the way, I'm probably getting one of these at work, which

01:27:01   is why I'm more invested in this at this point. And as I snarkily tweeted earlier,

01:27:07   Can we all guess why the screen doesn't go all the way to the edge on the left side?

01:27:12   Why doesn't the screen extend underneath that little bit?

01:27:15   So on the opposite side is the touch ID sensor. That's the same width as the margin on the left side.

01:27:21   Interesting. Exactly the same width or is it just close?

01:27:24   I think it's exactly the same. I haven't verified that though.

01:27:29   Yes, I think it is. I think you're right. It is exactly the same width.

01:27:32   Who do I know who likes margins to be exactly the same width on the right and left sides of

01:27:36   of things that they design.

01:27:37   I don't know.

01:27:38   I mean, maybe it might be the same person who put the camera shutter/volume up button

01:27:44   directly opposite of the turn off the screen and go to sleep button on the iPhone.

01:27:49   Offsetting those wouldn't have helped that much.

01:27:50   But anyway, again, if you squint through this laptop, you see this is still a 15-inch laptop

01:27:55   with a tiny keyboard crammed in there.

01:27:57   And I know you want to have room for the speakers, and I know so and so are all I'm saying is

01:28:00   that keyboard could be bigger on a 15-inch model, but they want to be uniform.

01:28:03   Same thing with the inverted T. You could have full-size arrow keys if you didn't want

01:28:06   have a perfect rectangle.

01:28:07   Johnny Ive and the Apple designers like symmetry.

01:28:09   I like symmetry.

01:28:11   I like things to be uniform and centered and everything.

01:28:14   But everyone has their limits.

01:28:16   And this is it.

01:28:18   The touch ID being on the gap on the right,

01:28:20   I know it has to be there.

01:28:21   That's fine.

01:28:22   What I would have chosen if I was designing this

01:28:24   is that the screen would go all the way to the edge

01:28:27   on the left side, even though it's not symmetrical.

01:28:29   That's the choice I would have made.

01:28:31   Apple made a different choice.

01:28:32   All they have opened the door for

01:28:34   is the ability to sell a lefties model of this.

01:28:35   The Touch ID is on the left.

01:28:36   Do you want a lefty or a righty?

01:28:38   A 15-inch MacBook Pro.

01:28:39   Oh, I want Touch ID on the left.

01:28:40   Anyway, it's mostly silly.

01:28:42   I think it will probably be fine.

01:28:43   But it is another maddening case of-- some people would say

01:28:48   it's form over function.

01:28:50   I think that's a little far.

01:28:52   I think I'll probably still be able to find that escape key.

01:28:54   The arrow keys bother me more than this.

01:28:57   But boy, I am on a slightly different page

01:29:01   than Apple's designers when it comes to symmetry and ergonomics.

01:29:04   - Well, and also, you will probably be able to find it,

01:29:07   but you will probably have to look more often.

01:29:10   And we don't know yet, in practice,

01:29:12   how often this will be a problem

01:29:14   with all the buttons on the touch bar.

01:29:15   But I would say, for the most part,

01:29:17   I think most people who use Macs,

01:29:19   like on Windows, Windows assigns all sorts

01:29:21   of frequent shortcuts to the F keys.

01:29:24   Is the only way to close Windows still Alt + F4?

01:29:27   So Windows people might use those more often.

01:29:28   Mac people, for the most part,

01:29:30   you're not very heavily using almost anything

01:29:32   that function row, except the escape key,

01:29:35   where many people, and you know, we as geeks,

01:29:39   we often minimize or diminish or underestimate

01:29:43   everyone else who's not a computer geek

01:29:44   and their ability to use our computers

01:29:46   that we think are ours.

01:29:48   I even, even there, I slipped into right, anyway.

01:29:51   Sorry about that.

01:29:52   Other people who are not geeks, many of them know

01:29:56   that the escape key often performs a cancel shortcut

01:30:01   to lots of things in the OS, full screen things, dialogues,

01:30:05   I mean like there's so many things in using a computer

01:30:09   where the escape key is a useful shortcut

01:30:12   for literally escape, like cancel or escape what I'm doing.

01:30:15   And normal people in quotes, many of them know that.

01:30:20   This is not like a thing that only people who use Vim use.

01:30:23   A lot of people know this.

01:30:26   So this is not just like a thing that annoys geeks.

01:30:31   The loss of a hardware escape key

01:30:33   that you can hit without looking,

01:30:35   because we've all been taught to type

01:30:37   without looking at the keyboard,

01:30:39   and the more you use keyboards,

01:30:40   the more you kinda just get into the habit

01:30:42   of not looking at them.

01:30:43   The lack of the hardware escape key

01:30:45   is actually going to inconvenience a lot of people.

01:30:47   It is not just nerds.

01:30:49   Now, it might be worth it.

01:30:51   The whole rest of the benefits of this thing

01:30:52   might end up being worth it in the end,

01:30:54   but I don't like when people minimize this

01:30:56   as just a nerd thing, 'cause it really isn't.

01:30:59   I think more nerds don't look at the keyboards than regular people, but I know a lot of people,

01:31:03   if I gave this computer to you, would be annoyed by the fact that the escape is not a button,

01:31:07   but even if they're looking at the keyboard the whole time. I'm willing to say that the benefit

01:31:12   totally outweighs it because the features that are available on this thing are just

01:31:15   fantastically better than a row of keys, and I'm all on board with that. It's just like I said,

01:31:19   the one button that you can feel for if touch ID is in the right, the left corner is the easiest

01:31:25   place on that thing to find. And if the touch region extended all the way to the left, that

01:31:29   that would make it almost as easy to hit.

01:31:31   Because it's not like you're typing the escape key.

01:31:32   Every once in a while you're hitting it

01:31:34   if you're a normal person.

01:31:34   It's not like the E key where you're constantly typing it.

01:31:37   So the fact that it's not a button wouldn't be like,

01:31:39   oh, it feels weird when it's not a button.

01:31:40   It would be fine if it was over to left more.

01:31:42   By the way, the second most frequently used button

01:31:44   in that top row for me on my Apple extended keyboard

01:31:47   at work, can anyone guess what it is?

01:31:48   - Play pause.

01:31:49   - Volume.

01:31:50   - No, it's the eject button.

01:31:52   And I don't hit it on purpose.

01:31:53   I hit it accidentally when I tried to hit backspace.

01:31:56   and the CD tray of a Mac Pro comes sticking out

01:31:59   like a giant tongue.

01:32:00   And why do I accidentally hit the eject button

01:32:02   when I'm hitting backspace?

01:32:03   Well, I'm not a great typist,

01:32:05   but why do I accidentally hit the button?

01:32:06   Because the top row of keys is jammed right up

01:32:09   against the number row in the backspace keys.

01:32:11   You know why?

01:32:12   Because there's just not enough room

01:32:13   on my giant expansive desk to put an extra five millimeters

01:32:16   between those two rows of keys.

01:32:18   Even Microsoft has lost the technology

01:32:20   of separate sets of keys.

01:32:22   Remember the original Microsoft ergonomic keyboard?

01:32:24   It had the two halves of the keys

01:32:26   and then it had a space, and then it had the function keys,

01:32:28   and then it had a space, and it had the inverted T,

01:32:30   then it had a space, then it had the numpad.

01:32:32   Look at the one that they just introduced recently.

01:32:34   - Yeah, and then your mouse was in New Jersey.

01:32:36   - I know, but I'm just saying, you can solve that problem

01:32:38   by getting rid of the numeric key bed or whatever.

01:32:41   I'm not asking for seven inches of space

01:32:43   between these regions, right?

01:32:44   But if you look at the new Microsoft ergonomic keyboard,

01:32:47   they copied Apple down to the half-size function keys

01:32:50   that are jammed up against the numbers.

01:32:51   It's like vertical, and they have a huge wrist rest

01:32:55   on this thing, it's like a seven inch wrist rest,

01:32:57   and yet they couldn't spare five millimeters

01:32:59   to put a space between the top row function keys,

01:33:01   and they couldn't make the top row function keys full size.

01:33:03   Like, do you think we have room on our desk,

01:33:05   or do you not think we have room on our desk?

01:33:07   Because this keyboard is huge,

01:33:08   but all your keys are jammed together,

01:33:10   and the numeric keypad's jammed against it,

01:33:12   and home, end, and page up, page down are jammed together.

01:33:14   Like, I don't know who's designing these things,

01:33:16   or what they think is going on,

01:33:17   but like, spaces between different sets of keys

01:33:20   are a feature.

01:33:20   Being able to feel for the top edge of the backspace key

01:33:23   is a feature.

01:33:23   I hate hitting that freaking eject button

01:33:25   and seeing my CD tray eject,

01:33:26   and I can hit it without even looking to push it back in

01:33:29   once I hear the mechanism start going,

01:33:30   'cause there's a delay.

01:33:31   Like, oh, I did it again.

01:33:32   I have to think.

01:33:33   - Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. - It's the worst.

01:33:34   - Hold on, hold on, wait.

01:33:35   Can you, I don't understand what you just said.

01:33:36   You said something about a tray in a what now?

01:33:39   - I know, it's hard to understand.

01:33:41   It's his cup holder, Casey.

01:33:42   - Oh, the cup holder.

01:33:43   Oh yeah, I miss having one of those.

01:33:45   Oh man, that's a long time ago.

01:33:48   - And I would say again on a laptop,

01:33:50   could you fit a keyboard on the 15-inch MacBook Pro

01:33:53   that has a space between the number keys

01:33:55   and the little strip thing.

01:33:56   Maybe you would want to in this new scenario

01:33:57   because it's like a screen

01:33:58   and you want it to be able to reach a vote over there.

01:34:00   For traditional keyboards, I think the space is important.

01:34:03   I think having half size keys up there is dumb.

01:34:06   I think, you know, the little strip thing

01:34:08   is not the full height of a keys.

01:34:10   Why not make that little strip be taller than it is?

01:34:12   Maybe it's just the right height

01:34:13   for the proportions they wanted for the features.

01:34:15   But a lot of the times they show like in the Photoshop demo,

01:34:17   they were showing the history of the images,

01:34:19   but the images were either,

01:34:21   they were either cropped or squished

01:34:22   because if you show them proportionally,

01:34:25   they'll be really small.

01:34:26   So you wanna show more of it,

01:34:27   but you only have width to expand in.

01:34:28   Like why isn't the touch bar the height of a full height key?

01:34:32   Right, is it just because the keys that it's replacing

01:34:35   were half height?

01:34:36   Like maybe it's a cost concern, maybe it's a power concern.

01:34:39   I'm not entirely sure,

01:34:40   but lots of decisions flow out of this

01:34:41   that I don't quite understand.

01:34:42   But as far as keys go,

01:34:44   I liked it better when I had full-size keys

01:34:46   with different regions separated from each other,

01:34:48   especially on a gigantic, expansive desktop keyboard.

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01:36:15   If I had to summarize the releases today, I am on the good side.

01:36:22   Overall, this was good.

01:36:23   As I said earlier, this does not come with, it isn't all roses.

01:36:27   There are some bitter pills to swallow here.

01:36:30   But overall, this was good.

01:36:33   And I'm really happy that they are still doing things like the Touch Bar, even though

01:36:39   I will probably not use one for quite some time, primarily because I get all my work

01:36:43   I worked on the desktop.

01:36:45   And as I mentioned earlier, I don't expect this

01:36:46   to come to desktops anytime soon, if ever.

01:36:51   And so this particular thing will probably not impact me

01:36:54   day to day for a while, if ever.

01:36:57   But they did make their laptops better, faster,

01:37:02   newer designs, thinner, lighter.

01:37:05   Overall, this was a really good day for Mac laptops.

01:37:09   It was just not a day for Mac desktops

01:37:11   or for anybody who cares about money, which is a lot of people.

01:37:16   I had some lighter things on the touch bar before I move on from that topic.

01:37:21   Sure.

01:37:22   These are all credited to people on Twitter.

01:37:23   So I was talking about the, you know, when I was doing my cranky tweets about the symmetrical

01:37:28   space on the sides of the touch bar, like, asking, you know, "Can anyone guess why

01:37:32   that space is like that?"

01:37:33   I posted a picture from the Apple Human Interface Guidelines that emphasizes the fact that the

01:37:37   margins are identical on both sides of it as a hint to the people who aren't listeners

01:37:40   to the show, and Dave Lehman had a good answer as to why the escape key is not up against

01:37:46   the left margin.

01:37:47   That's the space taken up by the headphone jack.

01:37:48   Ooh!

01:37:49   That's not—you couldn't fit the headphone jack, but we had to fit it in, and the headphone

01:37:55   jack is right under there.

01:37:57   And then I also tweeted that we should start the countdown to Touch Bar games, because

01:38:04   it's the Mac, and we don't have to send things to the Mac App Store, and this thing

01:38:06   does have an API.

01:38:08   You can make a Touch Bar game, I'm sure, of some fashion.

01:38:12   How responsive it can be, I don't know, because I don't -- it's not like you're, you know,

01:38:15   I think it is out of remove with a separate T1 chip over there, but it would be fun to

01:38:19   try to hack that to do something cool.

01:38:21   And here are the best entries for potential Touch Bar games.

01:38:24   Richard Yale suggested Punch the Monkey, which is a joke that only people who are on the

01:38:27   Internet in the '90s will get, because that was a banner ad with the monkey, and he moved

01:38:31   mostly horizontally because there wasn't much room for him to go.

01:38:33   So punch the monkey is the right thing, and Benjamin Gluckin wins the idea for a Touch

01:38:38   Bar game, which he calls Really Boring Snake.

01:38:42   Snake, by the way, for younger people, is a game that was popular on cell phones back

01:38:47   when the only games they could play was having—anyhow, I can't explain Snake if you don't get

01:38:50   the joke.

01:38:51   Trust me, it's very funny.

01:38:52   It was called Nibble and Q-Basic back in the day.

01:38:54   Mm-hmm, I remember that.

01:38:56   Really Boring Snake, you should copyright it.

01:38:58   Capital R, capital B, capital S, TM.

01:39:00   That's a game that you could make, Marco.

01:39:03   Honestly, the gaming things might be,

01:39:05   I saw James Thompson of Peacock fame talking earlier

01:39:08   about the, he was just starting to use the SDK.

01:39:10   Awesome news that there appears to be a simulator

01:39:13   for building apps for it,

01:39:15   so you don't need to have the hardware yet.

01:39:18   But it also appears that you only have access to it

01:39:20   when your app is active.

01:39:22   So if you were to make a touch bar game,

01:39:25   you might have to always have a window on screen

01:39:27   that the user keeps active for your game

01:39:28   to keep showing up in the touch bar.

01:39:31   - Yeah, I know.

01:39:31   Again, it's the Mac.

01:39:32   You'll see what kind of hacks people can do to it.

01:39:35   And you mentioned before that the addressable market

01:39:37   for Touch Bar things is going to be small.

01:39:39   And I think that would be more of a problem

01:39:41   if the Touch Bar wasn't so damn cool.

01:39:43   Oh, yeah.

01:39:44   And it probably seems like-- and it also

01:39:46   seems like it's easy to do something down there.

01:39:48   It's just so cool.

01:39:49   And it's in the simulator.

01:39:50   And I expect to see a lot of applications

01:39:53   doing possibly inadvisable things with the Touch Bar.

01:39:56   But it's just to have another place--

01:39:59   to have a place next to the keyboard that's

01:40:01   configurable that you can do stuff in, it will be exciting for developers to just

01:40:05   try something, especially if it's fairly straightforward to implement. It seems

01:40:08   like the classes they have for this type of stuff, the NSScrubber and all the

01:40:11   stuff in the whole API, seems pretty well thought out and well designed. It won't

01:40:15   be that hard to get something up there even if it's just a bunch of buttons and

01:40:18   stuff, and the Apple apps are really showing the way with like, we're not just

01:40:21   putting a bunch of configurable buttons like Casey was saying

01:40:24   before, like oh just a bunch of buttons that change based on the context. They've

01:40:27   got, you know, I mean it's obviously lots of horizontal stuff, but timelines,

01:40:30   thumbnails, lots of interfaces, it seemed pretty responsive in that you could do

01:40:35   things on this little tiny iOS control computer that would cause changes on the

01:40:39   big Mac computer a couple inches away in a fairly responsive fashion, making it so

01:40:45   that you can do things without taking your hands off the keyboard or you know

01:40:48   doing things two hands at once with one on the touch part one on the trackpad. I

01:40:51   found that demonstration pretty compelling and I think even though such

01:40:56   a small number of people relative to the rest of the Mac user base are gonna have

01:40:58   this developers will add this feature because it's cool I love the idea of

01:41:04   this like amazing like high-end dual core supercomputer sitting there mostly

01:41:11   idle as you play a game on this little 30 pixel tall strip the whole screens

01:41:17   like they're lit up the whole computers are doing nothing you sit there playing

01:41:21   the game on this little watch processors little skinny screen it could be an

01:41:26   Inversion of like the like the top part will be just like the the status display that shows your inventory and the whole game

01:41:32   Strip on the bottom lots of infinite runner runners are potentially good again

01:41:37   I don't know how much control you have in there, but because it is a little computer doing that

01:41:41   I wonder if you can somehow get code onto it for it to run

01:41:43   I'm not sure what the whole deal is it seems to be communicating add or remove from the rest of the Mac system

01:41:49   But there is code running there to run the display and if you can get your code onto the t1 or onto whatever the t1

01:41:55   does and get it to run from there, that will be where you're fun.

01:41:59   At the very least, you should probably be able to do Pong or something, right?

01:42:02   Or Really Boring Snake.

01:42:03   Yeah, and I would like to—the other thing for the touch bar is there's already Apple

01:42:07   human interface guidelines for it.

01:42:09   I briefly looked at them, and I remember reading it, and I'm like, "Oh, this all seems sensible

01:42:12   and good ideas."

01:42:13   But one of the items made me think that Apple had actually done a demo that was counter

01:42:17   to it.

01:42:18   Let me just see if I can find out about, like, uh—

01:42:20   Well, that's not new.

01:42:21   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:42:23   The Bible doesn't always follow the HIG, and the HIG is not a Bible that has to be

01:42:28   followed to the letter.

01:42:29   It's guides.

01:42:30   Oh, no.

01:42:31   They didn't—yeah.

01:42:32   The one that was confusing me, they're within the bounds of things.

01:42:34   Avoid mirroring the touch bar interactions on the main screen.

01:42:36   But they mean—the example they give—if the user taps a button on the touch bar and

01:42:39   is presented with listed options, don't also present those same options on the main

01:42:43   screen.

01:42:44   What they demoed was, for example, in photos, when you're messing with the exposure slider,

01:42:49   rather than just you messing with the exposure slider on the touch bar and seeing the exposure

01:42:53   change on the full screen image.

01:42:54   When you go into edit mode, the Photos app also goes into edit mode, and when you drag

01:42:58   the exposure slider, the exposure slider is visible on the main screen as well, and it

01:43:02   drags it at the same time as you were dragging your thing.

01:43:06   Now that's arguably not the same as presenting a list of options in both places, but it is

01:43:10   kind of mirroring the controls.

01:43:12   Like look, am I changing the exposure on the sidebar of photos, or am I changing the exposure

01:43:15   on the touch bar?

01:43:18   It's kind of weird to have it in both places, like the advantage should be, as they showed

01:43:21   in a couple of other demos. If I'm using Touch Bar, that means those controls don't

01:43:25   have to be on the screen. Like, that's the whole point of the Touch Bar. I have them

01:43:28   down here so more of the screen can be used to show me the content. But maybe just because

01:43:32   Photos hasn't been updated to do that and the only way to be in edit mode is to have

01:43:35   that view visible, I don't know. But anyway, we'll put this link in and you can check it

01:43:40   out. It's short, it's one page, and it's an interesting insight into how Apple expects

01:43:44   the Touch Bar to be used by developers.

01:43:46   All right, anything else worth talking about?

01:43:49   Next, we haven't even talked about the max RAM.

01:43:51   16 gigs max RAM on a $4,000 notebook.

01:43:54   Yeah, that's unfortunate.

01:43:56   Just you've got to say no on that one.

01:43:57   Like 16 gigs, you know, standard on the 15 inch fine.

01:44:01   I can almost kind of forgive eight gigs on the 13s.

01:44:04   Maybe, maybe not, but the 13 Pro is increasingly less Pro.

01:44:07   We haven't even talked about that,

01:44:08   but 16 gigs max on the big one, not a good choice.

01:44:13   Not a good choice at all.

01:44:15   Especially since it's such a powerful machine

01:44:16   compared to the previous one.

01:44:18   like to have the same max ram limit,

01:44:19   but if you're gonna run any VMs,

01:44:21   those are gonna eat up your memory,

01:44:22   and if you're gonna be doing all these fancy things

01:44:25   that you can do on this new computer

01:44:27   with high-res images and video,

01:44:29   16 gigs of ram max is not great.

01:44:32   - Well, I mean, look, let's be honest here.

01:44:33   I mean, I see people on Twitter and stuff complaining,

01:44:36   like, how could a pro machine not have this

01:44:38   or have this or whatever else?

01:44:40   Apple's use of the word pro

01:44:43   is primarily about size and price target.

01:44:47   It does not have to do with whether professionals,

01:44:50   whatever that means, however you define that,

01:44:52   are able to use this computer for what they need

01:44:54   or whether it's designed for them or not.

01:44:55   Pro means it's the big expensive one, period.

01:45:00   So the fact that pros often need more than 16 gigs of RAM

01:45:04   does not seem to enter Apple's thoughts

01:45:05   about whether to make that option available or not here.

01:45:09   - I think it entered into their thoughts,

01:45:11   they just would need more battery to do it probably

01:45:13   and that's where the sticking point was, I'm assuming.

01:45:15   I mean, RAM does use battery power

01:45:17   and not a small amount of it,

01:45:19   but compared to everything else in there,

01:45:21   I mean, the 15-inch has a 45-watt CPU

01:45:25   next to a 35-watt GPU.

01:45:28   And by the way, one of the things

01:45:30   that makes me sad about the new 15-inch

01:45:32   is that I was always a fan of buying

01:45:35   the low-end 15-inch configuration

01:45:37   that only had the Intel integrated GPU,

01:45:40   which that option has been available now

01:45:42   for quite some time, I think, since around 2010 or so,

01:45:45   where it used to be, first it was just always discrete,

01:45:47   and then eventually they had these dual GPU models

01:45:51   around 2008, 2009 or something like that,

01:45:54   where they would have this one,

01:45:55   they'd have the high power discrete GPU,

01:45:57   and they would also have the Intel integrated GPU,

01:46:00   and then it would switch between them

01:46:01   based on whether anything was running

01:46:03   that needed them more power of the big one,

01:46:05   and the switching, not only does having two GPUs

01:46:08   and having a high power one there in the first place,

01:46:10   not only does that raise the power requirement

01:46:13   when that GPU is active and it raises the ceiling

01:46:16   of how high the power consumption can get

01:46:17   if it's under load.

01:46:19   But also there were often bugs switching

01:46:21   between those two GPUs.

01:46:23   That's not an easy task and the Mac switching

01:46:25   between them would often have weird issues.

01:46:27   And there are-- - Wait, like why?

01:46:29   - Visual glitches, both GPUs staying active

01:46:32   and using too much power, occasionally even blue screens.

01:46:35   Also, the other problem is that having another

01:46:39   big hot chip on the logic board will actually

01:46:43   significantly raises the failure rates.

01:46:45   And many people, I think there have even been

01:46:47   class actions against this and extended service programs

01:46:49   and everything where often a 15-inch MacBook Pro

01:46:54   will have a big problem with the GPU

01:46:56   failing after a certain amount of time

01:46:57   because just the additional heat and stress

01:46:59   in the board and everything.

01:47:00   Like there were big problems with NVIDIA back in the day

01:47:02   and these problems, I don't know if there's any recent ones,

01:47:06   but it's basically, there's enough of a downside

01:47:10   to having the discrete GPU in the 15-inch,

01:47:13   both in battery, in heat, in possible bugs

01:47:16   and in possible failures down the road,

01:47:18   that I've always favored the option

01:47:20   because I'm neither a gamer,

01:47:23   nor do I use external monitors with my 15 inches,

01:47:27   like I just use it as itself when I do use it,

01:47:30   I've always been a fan of buying the Intel only GPU version.

01:47:35   And for whatever reason, that option is gone now.

01:47:39   Now you can only buy it with the AMD one.

01:47:42   Somebody on Twitter told me earlier,

01:47:44   I don't know if this is true or not,

01:47:45   somebody said that the newest version

01:47:47   of the Intel integrated GPU that would be in this

01:47:49   is actually slower than the previous one.

01:47:51   So that might be the reason.

01:47:52   Apple might have a legitimate reason

01:47:53   for getting rid of that option.

01:47:55   But--

01:47:56   - Well, what about the fact that it can drive

01:47:58   two 5K displays?

01:47:59   I don't suspect--

01:48:00   - I was gonna mention that.

01:48:01   Like, there's some big advantages to this

01:48:04   and then you lose the proneness.

01:48:05   I think Marco would still want it.

01:48:06   He's like, "I don't need to drive two 5K displays."

01:48:08   But I think all these reasons,

01:48:10   The one that is common to all of them, both the memory and the GPU, is uniformity.

01:48:15   If you just have one model, it always comes with 16 gigs, it always comes with the GPU.

01:48:18   That's another cost savings, that's another resource and investment thing.

01:48:22   How many different SKUs do you want to have?

01:48:23   How many different varieties do you want to have?

01:48:25   The RAM is soldered to the board.

01:48:26   If we have one with more RAM, it's more of a pain.

01:48:30   Do you want to have one with and without discrete GPU?

01:48:32   Just do the one with discrete GPU, because the integrated one is crappy and you can't

01:48:36   drive the monitors.

01:48:37   then how do you have four Thunderbolt 3 ports and everything, you know. So there's a lot

01:48:43   of reasons I can think of for both of these choices, but I have more faith in Marco than

01:48:48   in the discrete GPU, simply because this one is 14 nanometers, which has got to help with

01:48:52   the heat and everything, and I'm hoping that they have mostly worked out the kinks of the

01:48:56   GPU switching. If they could do it power-wise, it might be easier just to always use the

01:49:01   discrete one. That would probably be slaughter your battery, but that would be good from

01:49:05   from a bug perspective, I know a lot of people use,

01:49:07   what was that thing called, Margot?

01:49:08   The little menu bar thing?

01:49:10   - It was a graphics card status by Cody Krieger?

01:49:13   - Yep, that's right.

01:49:14   - Yeah, there was a utility where you could say,

01:49:16   where you could make it use one GPU or the other,

01:49:18   and one possible solution to bugs was like,

01:49:19   look, plug in your laptop and just make it

01:49:21   only use the discrete GPU,

01:49:23   and then you don't have to worry about it.

01:49:25   - Well, but even that was controversial,

01:49:27   'cause even that one, it could force the discrete GPU

01:49:29   to be on, but it couldn't force the discrete GPU to be off.

01:49:33   'Cause under certain models,

01:49:34   it would tell that utility that it was integrated only,

01:49:39   but it would still run the discrete one anyway.

01:49:43   And it was, basically, you could never count on it

01:49:46   to only use the integrated one.

01:49:47   You could, as you said, you could count on it

01:49:49   to always use discrete, but then you're losing

01:49:51   a lot of battery life and making more heat to get that.

01:49:53   'Cause the GPUs are very complicated.

01:49:55   A GPU in a laptop these days, like a good one,

01:49:58   is almost or equally or even more complicated

01:50:02   and heat demanding and battery demanding than a CPU.

01:50:05   So, like I said, that's a 35 watt GPU in there

01:50:08   next to a 45 watt CPU.

01:50:10   That's a lot of extra power there.

01:50:12   So if you don't need it, and again,

01:50:15   the definition of pro, there are lots of types of pro work

01:50:20   that don't need GPU power.

01:50:22   I have never really needed much GPU power in what I do.

01:50:26   I'm a pro, Tiff doesn't need it, she's a pro.

01:50:29   John, I bet you don't need it except for games.

01:50:31   But on your work computer, I bet you don't have it.

01:50:32   Or rather, you don't need graphics card power.

01:50:35   Casey, do you need a good graphics card

01:50:37   on your work computer?

01:50:38   Or your home one, for that matter?

01:50:39   - No, but I think you're giving

01:50:41   a pretty narrow definition of pro.

01:50:44   Pro to you is someone who does the sorts of things

01:50:46   that you or your family do.

01:50:47   And there's a lot of other flavors of pro

01:50:49   that might necessitate that GPU.

01:50:51   And since I have the floor, I will say

01:50:54   that the only time I ever had problems

01:50:56   with my 2011, my two 2011 MacBook Pros,

01:50:59   each of which had discrete GPUs.

01:51:03   The only time I ever had any sort of glitches or issues

01:51:06   was when I was running graphics card status.

01:51:08   When I was just using OS X or Mac OS Now out of the box,

01:51:11   I never had an issue except,

01:51:13   I could not agree with you more Marco,

01:51:15   that battery life just was slaughtered

01:51:17   when the discrete GPU was on.

01:51:19   Completely agree there.

01:51:20   But in terms of like glitches and stuff like that,

01:51:22   I never had any of those problems

01:51:24   as soon as I stopped talking about graphics card status,

01:51:27   or since I stopped rolling graphics card status.

01:51:30   - I would always buy, if I had a choice

01:51:32   and they had it with me,

01:51:33   I would always buy the one with a discrete GPU anyway.

01:51:35   - Well, you're a gamer. - Even with all the bugs.

01:51:36   I mean, not just because of the games,

01:51:38   just because it's like, look, if you're buying the Pro,

01:51:41   just it's gonna be the biggest, the hottest,

01:51:44   the, you know, and like I said, I think I have faith.

01:51:48   I like the fact that we're not in the bad old days

01:51:50   where the GPUs used to be done

01:51:51   on a worse process than the CPU.

01:51:53   This GPU is 14 nanometers.

01:51:54   It is actually the current architecture

01:51:57   that AMD has out now, I think it's the current one, Polaris,

01:52:02   instead of being like three or four generations

01:52:03   behind like the embarrassing, it's not the super fast.

01:52:06   If some people are asking me,

01:52:07   is this like a gaming laptop?

01:52:08   No, it is not.

01:52:09   Like this is not the best GPU you can get in a laptop

01:52:12   by a long stretch of the imagination,

01:52:14   but compared to what we had before,

01:52:15   like that's why they could put up those slides.

01:52:16   Look, it's 100% faster.

01:52:18   It's like, yeah, 'cause those ones were ancient

01:52:21   and this one is contemporary, middle of the road,

01:52:25   probably not as clocked, as high,

01:52:27   Not the best of the best, you know, but I like GPUs.

01:52:30   I would always buy the one with the big hot GPU.

01:52:32   My laptop's gonna be plugged in at work all the time anyway.

01:52:35   But it's good for, it would be nice, you know,

01:52:38   again, options, how many SKUs do you have,

01:52:39   how many options do you have?

01:52:41   Marker would like one that has a big screen

01:52:42   but doesn't have a discrete GPU.

01:52:44   They don't make that product, I think,

01:52:45   mostly because of uniformity.

01:52:47   We make one of these computers, we make one of those,

01:52:49   we make one of those.

01:52:50   - But they did, until today.

01:52:51   - I know.

01:52:52   - Actually, I'm pretty sure they still sell it.

01:52:53   (laughing)

01:52:54   - Yeah, you might be able to still buy the old one

01:52:56   'cause why would they stop selling it?

01:52:58   - Yeah, but I mean basically, so besides that though,

01:53:00   I mean the 15, ultimately the 15 looks like

01:53:02   an incredible update.

01:53:03   I am a little concerned about real world battery use here.

01:53:08   I'm very, very interested to see the reviews come out

01:53:12   and to see people's experiences with these things

01:53:14   as they come out because one of the problems

01:53:16   that I've had recently with a lot of the,

01:53:19   as I mentioned before, a lot of the gains we've made

01:53:21   in battery life recently in probably the last five years

01:53:24   least, has really been in reducing the idle power levels of these chips and of computers.

01:53:31   It's basically reducing the amount of power that computers use when you're using them

01:53:35   very lightly for things like email and web browsing. But as soon as you do anything that

01:53:39   really strains them, like many pro types of applications or running Chrome, then the battery

01:53:46   life drops tremendously. Like, you might get 10 hours if you're doing light web browsing,

01:53:52   but four hours if you're actually pushing it a little hard,

01:53:56   or two hours if you're pushing it to the max.

01:53:58   And so there's huge differences in battery life

01:54:03   under under light loads and battery life

01:54:04   under moderate to heavy loads.

01:54:06   With this, I fear that we're going more in that direction

01:54:09   just 'cause, you know, just looking at the specs,

01:54:10   I mean, you have these big hot chips in there.

01:54:13   The one that doesn't go in this direction

01:54:15   that I'm very, very interested in

01:54:17   is the new MacBook Escape,

01:54:19   'cause that one I think we need to talk about.

01:54:22   So the MacBook escape, the new 13 inch low end one with the real F and keys is the one

01:54:28   that I have pre-ordered or ordered I guess that it's going to arrive next week.

01:54:34   The reason why is because as far as I can tell, so here's the weird thing about this

01:54:39   computer.

01:54:41   Apple quotes all three of these new MacBook Pros, the MacBook escape, the new 13 with

01:54:46   the touch bar and the new 15 with the touch bar.

01:54:48   They quote all three of them as having 10 hour battery life.

01:54:52   And if you look at what hardware is in them,

01:54:55   this doesn't quite make sense.

01:54:57   Now the 15, of course, the 15 has a bigger battery.

01:55:00   That makes sense, though it has much more

01:55:02   power hungry components in it,

01:55:04   but it has a bigger battery, so you can kind of see

01:55:07   that the 13 with touch bar and the 15 with touch bar

01:55:11   having very different components

01:55:12   but very different battery sizes

01:55:13   can be made to have the same battery life.

01:55:16   But the MacBook escape has effectively

01:55:21   the MacBook Air guts in it.

01:55:22   It has the MacBook Air processor,

01:55:24   which uses half the power of the 13 inch.

01:55:27   It has no discrete GPU in it.

01:55:29   So basically compared to the other 13 inch

01:55:31   with the touch bar, it has a processor

01:55:33   that uses half the power at max load.

01:55:35   It doesn't have the touch bar and whatever power

01:55:37   it takes to drive the touch bar.

01:55:40   And it has 10% larger battery capacity.

01:55:44   and it's quoted at the same battery life.

01:55:46   That makes no sense to me.

01:55:48   My best guess here is that the 13-inch MacBook Escape

01:55:53   gets substantially better battery life

01:55:55   than the 13-inch MacBook with touch bar,

01:55:57   but Apple probably didn't want to trumpet that,

01:56:00   that the low-end one gets the best battery life

01:56:03   in the whole lineup of these new things,

01:56:05   because that might discourage people

01:56:06   from buying the new touch bar.

01:56:08   - And by the way, on the 13-inch model,

01:56:10   I'm kind of surprised that Apple emphasizes this,

01:56:12   are saying, "Look, it's smaller than the Air and has less volume in the Air and all

01:56:17   the other things."

01:56:18   This is kind of the amazing futuristic computer, either one, either the 13-inch one, the Escape,

01:56:23   or the regular one with the Touch Bar, that I always wanted the Air to be, and they finally

01:56:27   made it.

01:56:28   Because I've always been cranky about the wedge shape.

01:56:29   It's like, "Why are you saving that space?

01:56:33   Why are you scalloping your batteries like they're potatoes?

01:56:36   Just make it the same thickness from end to end.

01:56:38   You can fit more battery in."

01:56:40   And they did it.

01:56:41   They finally did it.

01:56:42   is a Mac that is not thinner at one end than the other for aesthetic reasons which means they can

01:56:47   fit more battery into it which means it probably gets really good battery life for the powerful

01:56:51   internals. It's got two ports instead of one. They're Thunderbolt 3 right? They're Thunderbolt

01:56:55   3 on that right? I'm not remembering that. Thunderbolt 3 like this is a hell of a laptop

01:57:00   and it makes me you know it's it's bad for it's bad for most people that it's $500 more expensive

01:57:06   but I feel like it justifies that price by actually having modern technology in it and

01:57:11   being the same thickness all the way across and having better battery life and like I

01:57:16   Don't think I would have gotten the escape one because I think the touch bar is too compelling

01:57:21   It's like look if you're gonna buy one

01:57:22   It's like the iPhone if you're gonna buy one you're gonna get black you might as well get jet black because that's the new thing

01:57:26   Yeah, but Marco is making it bad on the battery life

01:57:29   The specs seem to bear out your theory that it will have better battery life

01:57:35   But don't you want to play with touch bar?

01:57:36   What are you gonna do with this?

01:57:38   - Well see, here's exactly the thing.

01:57:41   If you are the kind of person, you listener,

01:57:44   if you use your laptop as your primary computer,

01:57:47   get the touch bar.

01:57:48   Because you're right, that is the new thing.

01:57:50   That might be the future.

01:57:51   Apple will wedge it into the future,

01:57:53   whether it will be or not, so that will become the future.

01:57:56   It's gonna be great, it's gonna be awesome,

01:57:58   and that'll be a new cool thing to use and play with

01:58:00   and to probably improve your productivity,

01:58:02   at least sometimes, if not all the time.

01:58:04   So if your laptop is your primary computer,

01:58:07   get the Touch Bar.

01:58:09   But it's not my primary computer.

01:58:11   My primary computer is my iMac,

01:58:13   and hopefully next year another Mac Pro.

01:58:16   I get all of my work done almost all the time at a desktop.

01:58:20   So I'm not really going to get into the Touch Bar lifestyle.

01:58:23   It's never going to be a thing that really like,

01:58:26   that really gets itself into my workflow

01:58:28   until I can use it on a desktop,

01:58:30   and as I mentioned, that might be never.

01:58:32   So right now, what I do want out of a laptop

01:58:35   is I would like one that is small and light.

01:58:38   And by the way, just to put into perspective

01:58:40   how small and light these new laptops are,

01:58:43   the new 13-inch MacBook Escape

01:58:44   and the new 13-inch MacBook are both as light

01:58:48   as the 13-inch MacBook Air always has been.

01:58:52   The 15-inch is four pounds now.

01:58:56   That is substantially lighter

01:58:58   than the 13-inch plastic MacBooks were.

01:59:02   Those were, I think either 5.0 or 5 1/2.

01:59:04   I looked it up before the show and I forgot.

01:59:07   They might have even been 4 1/2, but regardless,

01:59:10   this is, the new 15 inch is lighter

01:59:13   than the plastic MacBook was.

01:59:14   And that was the small and light computer of its day.

01:59:17   And that day was not that long ago.

01:59:19   So that's impressive.

01:59:21   So the reason to not get a 15 inch,

01:59:24   if you're weighing the pros and cons here,

01:59:28   the reason to get a 15 inch or not

01:59:30   should not have to do with the weight by itself.

01:59:33   Footprint might matter to you.

01:59:34   Cost, of course, is a thing,

01:59:36   although the cost difference once they're specced up

01:59:37   is actually not that big.

01:59:39   It's kind of, embarrassingly so, not that big.

01:59:41   But cost is one thing, footprint is one thing,

01:59:45   but it's only four pounds.

01:59:47   The 13-inch MacBook Air is three pounds,

01:59:49   and so that's really awesome.

01:59:51   Like, that's a really lightweight computer

01:59:54   for what you're getting for that price.

01:59:56   But anyway, I'm trying out the MacBook Escape

01:59:59   because for me, it is not my primary computer.

02:00:03   I want something small and light.

02:00:05   That's why I originally bought the MacBook One

02:00:07   back when it came out and ended up returning

02:00:09   'cause I hated it, but I think this will probably

02:00:12   solve the problems I had with the MacBook One.

02:00:15   This will probably be the best computer for me to have

02:00:17   in the small and light role, and in my current needs,

02:00:20   that's, I think, I think that will fit me best.

02:00:24   And because I'm not using it that often

02:00:27   and for all of my work, whether it has a touch bar or not,

02:00:31   for me, is not that relevant.

02:00:33   But again, for you listener, if you're getting one

02:00:36   to be your primary computer,

02:00:38   you should probably get the touch bar one.

02:00:41   - 'Cause it'll be cool.

02:00:42   Is this the first one they did the giant escape key with,

02:00:44   or did they do that on the MacBook One as well, I forget.

02:00:46   - I forget, that might have been,

02:00:48   was that on the 13 inch Air before that?

02:00:50   - Yeah, like the reason they did it, by the way,

02:00:52   what we're talking about is the escape key

02:00:53   on the MacBook Escape is really wide,

02:00:55   it's like wider than you would expect a normal key

02:00:57   be and I looked at it briefly like why is that so wide just just specifically on this

02:01:00   computer because I looked at the old 13 inch MacBook Pro and in the old ones the space

02:01:06   between the function row keys and escape there was more space with the between them horizontally

02:01:12   than there was between like the letter keys right yeah and so they were more spread out

02:01:16   and by spreading them more out then you end up with like uniform normal with keys all

02:01:20   along the top there was still a little bit wider than you would have anyway now the keys

02:01:24   are all closer together, which means that if you kept the same number of keys in the

02:01:27   top row, you'd have this empty space, and so they just made the escape key really wide,

02:01:31   which is fine with me.

02:01:32   Like, you know, in fact, it was kind of funny, speaking of these keyboards that I hate so

02:01:36   much, not because of the key presses, which we'll talk about in a moment, but because

02:01:39   of the key placement, like, they spent so long denigrating the function key and being

02:01:44   like, you know, "Who uses function keys?

02:01:46   Is this better?"

02:01:47   Like, which I totally sold them, like, "Yes, it is much better.

02:01:48   This is like the iPhone argument writ small.

02:01:50   Like it's better, instead of having fixed hardware keys, we'll have software keys and

02:01:53   you can do much more cool things like good thumbs up, right? Function keys are not, they're

02:01:57   right. Function keys are not used frequently. More often people are hitting the quote unquote

02:02:00   function keys to change their brightness and their monitor volume or the speaker volume

02:02:04   and to pause stuff like that's what they're used for. All in total agreement. Then why

02:02:08   does the f-ing key get this place of pride on the portable keyboards, right? If it is

02:02:13   so infrequently used, why are you hogging the good spot on the keyboard with the f-ing

02:02:18   key if people aren't going to, you know, and I say this obviously as someone who sits,

02:02:23   spends more time than the average person, average Mac user hitting the control key because

02:02:28   it comes up a lot in programming and Unix-y crap.

02:02:34   I would like that to be the control key down the corner and I know everyone is saying right

02:02:38   now if they're listening, "You know you can remap keys if you haven't remapped cap locks

02:02:42   to control like it's a Solaris machine from the 90s, what are you doing with your life?"

02:02:47   Everyone knows the proper place for control is where the cap locks is and in a Sierra

02:02:51   update recently, the OS now lets you remap the escape key to something else.

02:02:54   So if you're real upset about not being able to have a real key for the escape

02:02:58   key, you can remap it to whatever you want.

02:03:00   There are solutions here, but what I'm saying is I'm even more on board than

02:03:05   Apple seems to be about the dinosaur nature of the function key.

02:03:09   Like I don't use them.

02:03:10   I need to be able to type them sometimes.

02:03:12   That's fine.

02:03:13   But I don't use them so much that I would be happy to get rid of the FM key as well,

02:03:17   or at least move it to a less easily accessible place because the corners,

02:03:21   that's a great place on the keyboard to have the corners, right? And I don't think the

02:03:25   f and key deserves that place anymore.

02:03:27   Well, I think the reason it's there is because that's your gateway to getting the legacy

02:03:31   behavior from the touch bar. Because Federici mentioned on stage that, oh, if you need one

02:03:36   of those old keys, just mash down on the function key and then the touch bar becomes the prior

02:03:40   — the f and keys, if you will.

02:03:43   But nobody uses those, as they were emphasizing, like, who uses function keys? We all use them

02:03:46   for the other functions. If you need them back, yeah, you can get them back, it's fine.

02:03:49   But I don't think getting them back is such a common operation that deserves the lower

02:03:53   left corner.

02:03:54   Well, I mean, yeah, people don't use F7 a lot, but they do use pause.

02:04:00   But I guess those will always be there.

02:04:02   Pause, I see what you're saying.

02:04:05   You have the control strip, though.

02:04:06   Even in the context sense, you can still get at those things.

02:04:10   The main thing that I saw a lot of people tweeting about, which is also true, is if

02:04:12   you happen to be a person who goes from either desktop to laptop or goes from dock to laptop

02:04:17   with like an earn-out keyboard or something.

02:04:19   Like it's weird to have two sets of habits

02:04:21   where on basically every keyboard

02:04:23   that's not a laptop keyboard, lower left is control.

02:04:27   Again, if you haven't remapped it

02:04:28   and so on and so forth.

02:04:29   But when you go on laptops, you have to remember,

02:04:31   oh, lower left and over a bit is control.

02:04:33   You know, like different habits for different environments.

02:04:36   They do so much for the uniformity of the keyboards

02:04:39   and they blow that uniformity on a key

02:04:41   that is commonly used by people in my profession.

02:04:44   Obviously not by regular people.

02:04:45   understand this is a this is a minor concern not a concern to most normal

02:04:49   people who hit don't hit the control key or the effing key ever I understand this

02:04:54   is minor but uh but like I was like keep keep going like put the effing key

02:04:58   someplace else that's even less free or make it a weird key combination or

02:05:01   something because regular people can get at that stuff using the control strip

02:05:05   expanding it as needed and everyone else you know that can find wherever the

02:05:11   hell they move the effing key do well and I do want to nitpick one thing though

02:05:14   is that you keep saying, I've seen a lot of people say this,

02:05:19   well, that sounds Trumpian,

02:05:21   I've seen this idea spread around a lot,

02:05:22   which is like, they didn't design this for me,

02:05:26   or for us, or for you, and this is designed this way

02:05:29   not for your needs, but for everyone else's needs.

02:05:33   Well, again, if you start sanding off groups of users,

02:05:37   be like, well, this kinda sucks for me,

02:05:40   but this wasn't designed for me.

02:05:43   that's huge chunks of customers.

02:05:45   And if you keep doing that, everything they change

02:05:48   or remove or make worse about something

02:05:51   is going to affect some group of customers.

02:05:54   And eventually, that adds up.

02:05:56   Eventually, if you do that too much,

02:05:58   it's like a design fallacy to design for, quote,

02:06:02   the average or the normal or the mainstream,

02:06:04   because everyone has something that's out of the mainstream

02:06:06   that they do with their computer or their devices.

02:06:09   And so the more that Apple focuses in

02:06:12   and sands off the edges and makes things harder or worse

02:06:16   for quote, non-mainstream uses.

02:06:20   They're losing potential customers,

02:06:22   they're making things worse for their existing customers

02:06:25   every time they do that.

02:06:27   This adds up, this is not insignificant.

02:06:30   - Yeah, speaking of that though,

02:06:31   getting back to the pros, we didn't talk about this,

02:06:33   but I'm happy that there are four Thunderbolt 3 ports

02:06:37   on the big pro.

02:06:38   Like I mean, obviously six would be better

02:06:40   if you're a port maniac, but four,

02:06:41   Like you can't argue with that like every one of those ports has amazing capabilities

02:06:45   Which they emphasize and think every one of those can do all sorts of things and as KZ.0

02:06:49   You can direct to 5k displays off your laptop

02:06:51   Which is phenomenal a laptop

02:06:53   5k displays by the way that appear not to have GPUs in them from what I've been able to determine the magic that they're doing

02:06:58   Is like as we've discussed in the past like don't you need display port 1.3 to do this and these are only display port

02:07:03   1.2. Yes, but they're doing multi streaming

02:07:05   So it is like you are connecting two cables

02:07:07   But it's my understanding at this point is that they are taking two display part 1.2 streams

02:07:12   Using this multi streaming thing or whatever over the Thunderbolt three things

02:07:16   Which is why they're why you're able to drive even a single 5k display off these laptops

02:07:20   The fact you can drive two off of it is amazing

02:07:22   And then you still have two ports left over both of which you could connect these giant Hydra hub to like fill emphasize this well

02:07:27   Shiller and one of them's gonna have a power cable in it. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so you got one left

02:07:31   but still like you can hook a lot of stuff up to this laptop and that that feels pro and

02:07:36   And this is the future that we were all promised.

02:07:39   The uniform, same kind of very tiny,

02:07:42   amazingly capable port.

02:07:43   We're kind of like finally there.

02:07:44   After so many years of like USB and FireWire

02:07:48   and Thunderbolt and Mini DisplayPort and VGA

02:07:51   and DVI and ADC, and just to be able to finally seeing

02:07:56   like the goalposts, the end goal of like just a bunch

02:07:59   of little tiny uniform boards,

02:08:00   each of which does phenomenal stuff.

02:08:03   Even if it comes at the cost of MagSafe,

02:08:04   which we all love so dearly.

02:08:06   even if it comes at the cost of having some dongles

02:08:09   or whatever, I want to live in the future

02:08:11   where the only port on all of my computers

02:08:13   is this tiny little thing that does everything.

02:08:15   And I would like there to be a lot of them.

02:08:16   And four, I think is a reasonable number

02:08:18   for a 15 inch computer.

02:08:19   Five or six would be even better,

02:08:20   especially since one is used for power,

02:08:22   but I'm willing to go with it

02:08:23   and I mostly give that a thumbs up.

02:08:25   And two, two on the 13 inch,

02:08:27   it's nice they didn't hold the line there

02:08:28   and say, well, it's a 13 inch, it only has one.

02:08:30   Having two, three would be better than two.

02:08:32   There, I think they're a little bit one under,

02:08:34   but what I'm saying is I love Thunderbolt 3.

02:08:37   I love this future that we've arrived at.

02:08:38   - Doesn't the 13 inch with touch bar, I think has four.

02:08:41   'Cause it's only the MacBook escape has two.

02:08:44   And I think that's mostly because of the MacBook Air

02:08:47   chipset not having enough, probably not enough

02:08:49   PCI express lanes to have more than that

02:08:51   if I had to take a guess.

02:08:52   - All right, if that's the case, then that's reasonable.

02:08:54   - Also, I believe the display, that LG display

02:08:56   will power the Mac over--

02:08:58   - Yeah, yeah, it's a very Apple-like solution

02:09:01   to a non-existent Apple model.

02:09:02   I'm trying to figure out if the monitor has a GPU in or not,

02:09:06   because as we know, we've seen these rumors in various sites,

02:09:09   and our ITB tipster has been insisting

02:09:11   that there exists somehow this 5K external Apple display.

02:09:14   And in this presentation, Apple is like,

02:09:16   if you want to use a cool 5K display,

02:09:18   buy this one from LG that probably uses

02:09:20   the same panel as the iMac.

02:09:22   And it's awesome, and try it.

02:09:23   And Apple has done this in the past many times.

02:09:25   When it doesn't have a product for sale,

02:09:27   it will direct you to a third party one.

02:09:29   This has been taken as a sign by many people

02:09:31   this means Apple definitely doesn't have a 5k display. I don't know whether they do. I really

02:09:36   want Apple to have one even if it's the exact same panel not because this LG display is bad. This is

02:09:40   exactly what I want. I just don't want it to be ugly like that one is. I know it's stupid and I'm

02:09:45   picky and I want it to match and be nice but like for crying out loud the LG display has a bigger

02:09:50   margin on the top of the display than the bottom. What kind of maniac? It's a five head. The thing

02:09:56   thing is a five head. It's just, it's no, it's, anyway, I'm sure it's a lovely display

02:10:01   LG. I just want Apple to make one. If they never do, I will buy something like this LG

02:10:06   display and I think the way it works with laptops is amazing and like, you know, applause

02:10:11   all around.

02:10:12   I mean, I have always used a third party external display with my Macs until I got this iMac.

02:10:18   This is, I've never bought an Apple display for my, Tiff had one, but I never bought one

02:10:21   for myself before this iMac.

02:10:23   I always had like Dells and HPs and before that,

02:10:26   always third party displays.

02:10:28   And this new LG one is uglier

02:10:31   than every monitor I have ever owned.

02:10:33   - It's not that bad in the grand scheme of PC displays.

02:10:36   - No, it really is.

02:10:37   - But no one makes it ugly.

02:10:39   - It's not ugly, but it doesn't match the Apple aesthetic.

02:10:43   You know what I mean?

02:10:44   With like the glass and the aluminum

02:10:46   and the sort of tastefulness of the stand there.

02:10:49   I mean it's fine, it's not hideous.

02:10:51   There are hideous PC monitors, we've all seen them,

02:10:53   where they do the wrong thing with the foot

02:10:56   and make the margins all weird.

02:10:58   Even this Asus display that I have my PlayStation attached to

02:11:01   has this shiny surround on it that I find weird

02:11:04   and it's kind of creaky and the power button

02:11:07   is on the bottom and when you hit it

02:11:08   the whole display tilts and it doesn't feel as nice.

02:11:11   And this is totally touchy-feely aesthetic stuff,

02:11:14   I'm not even talking about the screen.

02:11:16   Because again, LG makes all the panels anyway,

02:11:18   They make the panel for the iMac, they make the panel for the display.

02:11:21   That's not what I'm talking about, I'm just a picky person.

02:11:23   And I also think Apple should be in the business of making displays because it's a selling

02:11:27   point.

02:11:28   First of all, why shouldn't Apple make that money?

02:11:29   They can add margins, sell it for an extra hundred bucks, like whatever, we'll buy it,

02:11:33   all the suckers will buy it.

02:11:34   And it's like, nice cool thing, look, that thing they touted, you can connect one Thunderbolt

02:11:39   cable to your laptop and it charges it and it also drives it, it's like, that's amazing.

02:11:43   That should be like, that should be in an Apple family, like product family photo, like

02:11:46   look at this awesome setup you could have.

02:11:48   You could have this portable computer.

02:11:49   When you sit down at work, you have this amazing screen

02:11:51   or even two of them.

02:11:52   That's phenomenal.

02:11:53   And I feel like Apple is not emphasizing

02:11:56   that arrangement as much because it's like,

02:11:57   well, we don't even make the display.

02:11:58   We'll mention it and it's nice

02:12:00   and we probably have some deal with LG

02:12:01   and we work with them,

02:12:02   but it's not gonna be in all our product family shots.

02:12:05   Maybe it'll be in one of them.

02:12:07   And so I feel like Apple is leaving money on the table.

02:12:10   I continue to hold out hope

02:12:11   that they will introduce a 5K display.

02:12:12   Maybe I'm a fool.

02:12:14   Obviously, if the Mac Pro is ever revised

02:12:17   and there's still no 5K display,

02:12:18   well, I'm just glad there'll be something for me to buy.

02:12:21   - Yeah, I mean, I would give the chances of this,

02:12:24   of Apple's 5K display actually coming out now.

02:12:26   Like, you know, I believe, tips here and everyone else,

02:12:28   that this thing exists inside of Apple

02:12:30   and that it was possibly even finished.

02:12:33   But whether it ships is always a different story.

02:12:35   And I would give the likelihood of this shipping now,

02:12:39   since it didn't ship at this event

02:12:40   and since Apple pushed the LG one so hard,

02:12:43   I would say it's 50/50 at best now.

02:12:45   - Yeah, it's looking grim.

02:12:47   If it does ship, it'll probably ship maybe next summer

02:12:50   when the Mac Pro is presumably updated.

02:12:53   If that even happens, even that is a big if.

02:12:56   - So are you two pleased?

02:12:58   I'm not prodding you on purpose anyway.

02:13:02   Are you pleased with this event?

02:13:04   Because I feel like I've heard both of you flip flop

02:13:08   between this was wonderful and oh my God, I hate everything.

02:13:11   That's an exaggeration.

02:13:12   But are you happy with what Apple did today

02:13:15   or are you completely left wanting?

02:13:17   - Marco ordered a computer,

02:13:18   so he's gotta be happy in some respects.

02:13:20   - Yeah, I mean, I'm happy in the sense that,

02:13:22   I mean, for years I've been saying,

02:13:25   man, wouldn't it be great if they put the Air CPU

02:13:28   inside a computer with a nice large battery

02:13:31   and a retina screen and everything,

02:13:33   and that's exactly what they did.

02:13:34   And that's kinda why I'm putting my money where my mouth is

02:13:37   and actually ordering this computer,

02:13:38   'cause I think it's gonna be amazing

02:13:39   for my actual preferences right now.

02:13:42   However, the rest of the event,

02:13:44   It's a mixed bag.

02:13:46   We didn't even talk about the keyboard.

02:13:50   According to most of the reviewers,

02:13:51   it seems like this keyboard feels very similar

02:13:54   to the MacBook One keyboard, and that is not good.

02:13:57   - Yeah, I was gonna say earlier,

02:13:58   you said you ordered this one

02:13:59   because it solved all the problems,

02:14:00   but isn't one of the reasons that you hated the MacBook One

02:14:02   was the terrible keyboard,

02:14:03   and now you just ordered a computer

02:14:04   with the slightly improved version of the same keyboard.

02:14:08   - Yes, and I'm gonna have to see if that works for me.

02:14:11   I hope it does.

02:14:12   It might not.

02:14:13   Do we know when these new ones are gonna be in stores?

02:14:16   Are they today?

02:14:17   - The MacBook Escape is gonna be available,

02:14:20   I think tomorrow or early next week.

02:14:23   It's in the next few days for the MacBook Escape.

02:14:25   And then the MacBook with touch bars.

02:14:29   I don't think there is a clear in-store date on those,

02:14:32   but I think it's going to be probably

02:14:33   two or three weeks at least.

02:14:35   - But to be clear, I'm not talking about to purchase.

02:14:37   I'm talking about to take it for a test drive

02:14:38   in terms of the keyboard.

02:14:40   - Yeah, no, I'm guessing that you're not gonna see

02:14:42   before two weeks from now. My understanding, I don't think anybody, I don't think even

02:14:46   the reviewers have the Touch Bar ones yet. So that, I mean, it's clear they're not

02:14:49   ready yet. I mean, maybe they're hanging out with the AirPods in a warehouse somewhere,

02:14:53   but they're clearly not out for showing outside of that press room today yet.

02:14:59   I mean, the press got to play with them, they just might not have gotten to take one home.

02:15:02   So they were there, like people could use them, you can see videos online of people

02:15:06   playing with them. That's where I got to see like how really cool this, and we've

02:15:10   spent so long not seeing matte monitors, you know?

02:15:12   And so to see a tiny matte display

02:15:15   where they match the finish to the key caps,

02:15:18   it looks super cool, it looks like a future world thing.

02:15:21   It also makes you wish that all the keys were tiny screens

02:15:23   and then the whole keyboard is a screen,

02:15:25   but we already talked about that.

02:15:26   - Yeah, so it's probably gonna be great.

02:15:28   But overall though, the event I think is good

02:15:33   for most of the things it introduced,

02:15:35   but there are a bunch of asterisks

02:15:37   'cause some things did get worse and more expensive,

02:15:39   and it was an incomplete update to the Mac line

02:15:43   because there's a lot of things that still didn't get

02:15:45   updated that desperately need them.

02:15:46   And we were expecting that, of course,

02:15:48   but that does color our feelings on it

02:15:50   because what we've seen basically is that Apple

02:15:53   might be out of the woods on the MacBook Pro,

02:15:56   but we don't know if they're out of the woods

02:15:57   yet on everything else.

02:15:59   - Well, I mean, I don't think the iMac

02:16:00   is really in a bad spot.

02:16:02   Now, the other ones I will concede,

02:16:04   but I think laptops look good now.

02:16:06   I don't think the iMacs are bad.

02:16:07   I think once the Kaby Lake or whatever it's called

02:16:09   comes out, I think then we'll see the update there.

02:16:12   The Mini and the Pro obviously are total dumpster fire,

02:16:15   but I mean, the main desktop line

02:16:19   and the main laptop line are both looking good,

02:16:21   and that's not a bad place to be.

02:16:23   Jon, what did you think of the event?

02:16:25   - So I think all the computers they introduced

02:16:28   are pretty good.

02:16:30   Like you always have your little complaints,

02:16:31   like half the time it's like the storage on the iPhones

02:16:33   or whatever on this one, it's the max RAM on the thing

02:16:35   and the escape key now,

02:16:36   but overall these are really good machines.

02:16:39   I think the important point to take away from this

02:16:42   is it is now safe to recommend people

02:16:44   to buy MacBook Pros again,

02:16:46   whereas for a long time it wasn't.

02:16:47   And now I think we all feel totally safe

02:16:49   'cause all these are winners.

02:16:50   All these are good computers.

02:16:51   They have modernish internals,

02:16:53   even if it's not Kaby Lake or whatever,

02:16:55   the other models that could possibly have it, right?

02:16:57   They have something cool and new and interesting,

02:16:58   which is a touch bar in some models.

02:17:00   Their retina, their P3, like the Thunderbolt,

02:17:04   the capabilities for external displays.

02:17:05   like these are good laptops.

02:17:08   And you mentioned like,

02:17:10   oh, they're probably out of the woods on the MacBook Pros.

02:17:13   It's difficult to say on those types of things

02:17:15   because it's like, yes,

02:17:16   so now finally they're recommendable models.

02:17:19   They are Macs to be proud of.

02:17:20   They're Macs that Apple can be proud of selling

02:17:22   that the people who buy them

02:17:24   are gonna have good experiences.

02:17:26   Even if like, oh, I miss MagSafe

02:17:27   and I wish I had an SD card slot or whatever,

02:17:29   like these are good laptops.

02:17:31   But just like the Mac Pro,

02:17:33   you're not really out of the woods with one data point.

02:17:36   You have to show that it's not gonna be

02:17:39   another year and a half,

02:17:40   and we're not gonna have to wait

02:17:41   for three more generations of Intel CPUs

02:17:44   for the 15-inch to get upgraded to the new architecture.

02:17:49   That's what you have to show.

02:17:50   You have to restore faith,

02:17:51   you really have to show consistency.

02:17:53   So good, we have ended the drought,

02:17:56   but it's like we don't trust

02:18:00   that this is going to be an ongoing concern

02:18:03   until you show me, all right, update them to Kaby Lake.

02:18:07   Update them to whatever lake is after that.

02:18:09   I forget what the hell the Intel,

02:18:12   like, are you gonna update this regularly now?

02:18:14   'Cause that's what we want as Mac fans and enthusiasts

02:18:17   and buyers of like really expensive machines

02:18:21   with high margins, right?

02:18:22   We want to show, we want to see that Apple cares

02:18:26   about our concerns.

02:18:26   So good, you did that for these ones,

02:18:28   but I'm still kind of like cautiously looking at it.

02:18:31   And a lot of the event for the things that we knew weren't going to be there,

02:18:35   you're still grumpy about not being there. You mentioned all those things.

02:18:38   Like the ones they introduced, that's not the problem.

02:18:40   Those are cool machines. It's the ones they didn't introduce,

02:18:43   even though we knew we weren't going to introduce them,

02:18:45   we can still be cranky about it.

02:18:46   And the ones that they're still selling on modified because I feel like Apple's

02:18:49   laptop line is now still filled with some machines that

02:18:54   seem kind of creaky and old. Not that they're bad machines,

02:18:57   not like the Mac pro, you know, like the 13 inch non-retina air,

02:19:01   It's not a bad machine, but I feel like it is a

02:19:04   increasingly worse value proposition as

02:19:06   Other things get better same thing with the iMac 5k Mac. I think is a great computer

02:19:10   Mm-hmm

02:19:11   But suddenly it looks slightly worse when I see the 15 inch Pro which has a cool touch bar and has the Thunderbolt 3 things

02:19:17   And I look at the 5k Mac

02:19:19   I'm like

02:19:19   You look slightly less amazing to me now which is as it should be every time you make a new computer your older ones that you

02:19:25   Haven't updated in a while look a little bit worse

02:19:27   But now it's filled with the fear of like and will they update the iMac to have

02:19:30   Thunderbolt 3 ports in the back and will they update the iMac to have Kaby Lake and a better GPU like this this fear involved in

02:19:36   Everything it's like we don't just trust like yeah

02:19:38   Well, you know the iMac was updated before and now the MacBook Pros are at the head of the pack

02:19:42   The old way was like yep

02:19:43   The MacBook Pros are the kings now, but soon the iMac will get its update and then it will leap ahead

02:19:46   And we'll just go on you know leapfrog each other and you know sometimes

02:19:49   It's cool, and they all update at the same time when we get excited, but otherwise we just expect this cadence and now with this

02:19:56   really long delay between things.

02:19:58   It's almost as if by introducing the new cool MacBook Pros,

02:20:02   it has made us feel worse about the rest of their line

02:20:05   that wasn't updated than we did before.

02:20:07   So it is a mixed bag.

02:20:09   And I have to say, honestly, finally to cap us off,

02:20:12   the Surface Studio event really did affect

02:20:15   how this felt to me, right?

02:20:17   Which is a rare thing that happens at a Microsoft event

02:20:21   and a Microsoft product colors how I view Apple's things,

02:20:24   But it just did, and we'll save this for a future show to dwell more on the Surface Studio,

02:20:30   the product whose name I can't remember and keep messing up when I try to say.

02:20:33   That did color how I look at this, and that has good and bad aspects, but it means that I

02:20:40   don't have the same unbridled—for all these reasons, I don't have the same unbridled

02:20:45   enthusiasm for the new products as I used to, even though I think they're really cool, and like I

02:20:49   said, even though I'm actually going to be getting one of these at work, which I am kind of excited

02:20:53   Thanks to our three sponsors this week, Audible.com, Squarespace, and MacPaw.

02:20:59   And we'll see you next week.

02:21:01   [Music]

02:21:02   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

02:21:09   Oh, it was accidental.

02:21:11   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, 'cause it was accidental.

02:21:20   It was accidental.

02:21:24   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

02:21:29   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

02:21:38   So that's Casey, Lis, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M.

02:21:43   ♪ Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

02:21:48   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

02:21:52   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:21:53   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

02:21:56   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:21:57   ♪ Accidental ♪

02:21:58   ♪ Tech broadcast so long ♪

02:22:02   - I really do wanna go to the store

02:22:04   and try out one of these keyboards,

02:22:06   'cause it's funny, I don't have the unbridled hatred

02:22:11   of the MacBook One keyboard that Marco seems to,

02:22:14   but I definitely agree that it leaves me wanting.

02:22:18   But as I've said numerous times,

02:22:22   I freaking love the Magic Keyboard,

02:22:24   which is not that far away from the MacBook One keyboard.

02:22:28   So I'm curious, once I try these new machines,

02:22:31   will I find them to be more MacBook One

02:22:33   or more Magic Keyboard?

02:22:35   And to Marco's point earlier,

02:22:37   everyone that's reviewing them is saying,

02:22:39   "Well, it's more MacBook One than Magic."

02:22:40   But I don't know, I'm curious, I'm curious to try it.

02:22:44   - It was interesting too, like in the

02:22:46   Johnny Ive explanation video, that they really hammered

02:22:49   on the fact that this was the second generation

02:22:52   butterfly key switch, like they really made it very clear

02:22:55   this is not the same keyboard, this is an improved keyboard.

02:22:58   Which I thought was kind of a tacit acknowledgement

02:22:59   of like, yeah, that first one wasn't very good,

02:23:01   or was at least controversial.

02:23:03   So they really want us to know that this is new and improved.

02:23:07   We'll see if it actually is.

02:23:08   - Yeah.

02:23:09   thinking about this theoretical product, the more I think about it, the more ridiculous

02:23:13   it seems in my mind. The idea, because you mentioned you really like the new Magic Keyboard

02:23:17   and you know, I don't like the fact that it's all squished up there, but the key presses

02:23:21   I might like. I don't even know if I actually tried one. Anyway, Touch Bar. A Touch Bar

02:23:25   on a Magic Keyboard, like a Magic Keyboard, you know, plug-in or otherwise, or with a

02:23:29   battery. Just start to think about that product and how absurd it is. It is basically an old

02:23:37   iPad with a really skinny screen and a physical keyboard welded to it.

02:23:43   I want a thing that I touch down here that has a screen, but mostly it's a keyboard,

02:23:48   but it's also a screen with a little computer running it.

02:23:52   How does that tension resolve itself between these two things?

02:23:54   The keys, by the way, are getting thinner and smaller and traveling less and less.

02:23:58   It's just so weird.

02:23:59   Anyway, I would like one of those.

02:24:02   Of course, I would want the extended one.

02:24:03   an Apple extended keyboard,

02:24:05   an aluminum Apple extended keyboard

02:24:06   with full-size touch bar separated from the number things.

02:24:11   I'm willing to give up all this desk space,

02:24:14   all this precious desk space

02:24:15   that apparently they think I'm filling my desk

02:24:16   with coffee cups or something

02:24:18   and I don't have, five millimeters to spare.

02:24:20   That would be a cool product,

02:24:21   but man, would that be a weird product.

02:24:24   'Cause it's like an iPad with a tiny screen

02:24:26   with a keyboard attached.

02:24:27   What the hell is that?

02:24:29   I don't even know.

02:24:30   It's definitely, but like I said,

02:24:32   It is definitely a transitional fossil.

02:24:34   It is not the end evolution of anything.

02:24:37   - So out of curiosity,

02:24:38   do you use your 10 key numeric keys that often?

02:24:43   - Mostly to enter RSA token values,

02:24:45   but yeah, I do use it for that.

02:24:47   And if you want, oh, RSA, oh, RSA.

02:24:51   Every time I use it to factor into a production machine,

02:24:57   that number is burned.

02:24:58   So even though I open up another tab

02:24:59   or another window immediately,

02:25:01   Gotta wait for a new number.

02:25:03   And type in a new one.

02:25:04   - Delightful.

02:25:05   - And I do use, I would sacrifice it though,

02:25:07   if you're asking, like I would chop off that thing.

02:25:09   I want home and end and page up and page down and arrows.

02:25:13   I will not give them up,

02:25:15   but I would sacrifice the numpad if I could.

02:25:16   - Well, any Apple keyboard I've ever seen,

02:25:19   you either give up the home and page up, et cetera,

02:25:23   with the 10 keys.

02:25:25   - I know.

02:25:25   - I mean, that's, I mean, teach their own.

02:25:28   I would, I guess in a perfect world,

02:25:30   I wouldn't mind having them,

02:25:31   but I absolutely would prefer a wireless keyboard,

02:25:34   except maybe with the mini iPad on it.

02:25:38   But I'd prefer a wireless keyboard

02:25:39   and I can certainly live without

02:25:41   all of those keys personally, but that's just me.

02:25:45   - I would plug it in.

02:25:46   I still use wired everything and like it's a desktop.

02:25:48   Like I can find a place to-

02:25:49   - Well, you still have that barbaric mouse, don't you?

02:25:51   - I can find, yeah.

02:25:53   - Wait, you use a wired mouse?

02:25:55   - Yeah, remember he uses that like $10 piece of junk.

02:25:57   - I do, I have a mouse problem.

02:25:59   I've had a mouse problem for a long time and it's not the wire

02:26:01   It's the fact that I can't find a mouse made in this decade that I like and so I keep using this ancient

02:26:08   I have one at home and one at work this ancient mouse that is not a good mouse

02:26:12   And one of them died and I had to buy one new one on eBay and now

02:26:15   Like I really need to find a mouse that I like and I don't have anything against wireless

02:26:20   Although I would find the battery charging and I would be probably be fine with it

02:26:23   Although I still I don't know like for gaming and everything

02:26:28   I was looking at some aftermarket PlayStation 4 controllers, and they were wired. I was like you know what I'm on board with that

02:26:34   I like the psychological advantage of not not having to think about the Wi-Fi signaling process adding latency to my

02:26:40   Crappy game reflexes. I need all the help I can get just connect it with the wire

02:26:44   I'm sitting in front of the thing anyway like anyway

02:26:47   For mouse and keyboard both the wires are routed in such a way that the fact that they're wired does not enter into

02:26:56   You know my mind. I don't see them. They don't bother me. They're all managed. Well. It's fine

02:27:00   We talked about your ridiculous mice in episode

02:27:03   132 they're not ridiculous. They're fine. They're just really really really old and and you know I don't know

02:27:10   I just it's difficult with mice because what do you do buy and return them buy and return them and just like go to a

02:27:15   Store and hold a bunch of in your hand try to guess which ones you like I tried that I'd bought a bunch of new

02:27:19   Ones and I was I was wrong that I gave them all like several weeks

02:27:22   I was like no I go back to the old one

02:27:24   I still say it's because of the stupid original Mac mouse that I learned a mouse on and now

02:27:30   I just keep looking for other mice with straight vertical sides without buttons all over them.

02:27:36   I mean the Magic Mouse is pretty good.

02:27:38   No, the Magic Mouse.

02:27:39   I am a die-hard Magic Mouse user and it's terrible.

02:27:42   It's way too flat.

02:27:43   Way, way, way too flat.

02:27:44   It's not terrible if you like a mouse.

02:27:45   You just hold it differently.

02:27:46   Yeah.

02:27:47   If you're the type of person who rests your hand on a mouse, like if you learned, maybe

02:27:50   if you learned like the iMac generation with the stupid puck which kind of made you like

02:27:53   because you couldn't grab the sides but I'm a side grabber. I hold the mouse

02:27:57   on the side. No, I'm the same way. I got my thumb and my ring finger hold the mouse and

02:28:03   so my hand floats very far above it. It's the same here but the nice thing is

02:28:08   there like a lot of modern mice that are not the magic mouse are super bulbous

02:28:12   and so even though there's like it's I'm looking at the way I'm holding my magic

02:28:16   mouse right now and there's you know a mile of air between the top of the mouse

02:28:19   and my palm, but on a lot of the modern mice, that will be taken up by the mouse.

02:28:25   You know, so you can just flop your hand right on it, and it's in that same shape,

02:28:29   but you don't have to like actually worry about holding your hand up.

02:28:33   And I really miss that about the Magic Mouse, but in every other way, I think this thing is darn near perfect.

02:28:39   So that's why I've put up with it since it was released.

02:28:43   What about the right click and having to not have your left finger down? Doesn't that drive you mad?

02:28:47   - No.

02:28:48   - I honestly, like I have, I mean I've been using

02:28:50   Apple's mice now for probably a good six or seven years now.

02:28:54   That took me about a half a day to get used to doing it

02:28:58   correctly and I literally never have like a miss click,

02:29:02   like where I mean to right click and I instead,

02:29:04   like that never happens.

02:29:06   - I don't think I'd have a miss click,

02:29:07   but like because I'm so sensitive to the RSI issues,

02:29:09   anything that requires me to sort of basically hold

02:29:12   my muscles and tendons in static contraction

02:29:15   for a brief period of time, like having anything poised

02:29:18   over anything without allowing it to rest on it,

02:29:21   that I'm very sensitive to those types of moves.

02:29:23   So even just the briefness of like remembering to lift

02:29:25   while I press down on the other one,

02:29:27   it's not that I would accidentally ever trigger

02:29:29   the other behavior, it's just that it is a ever so slightly

02:29:33   more muscle stress inducing move than my current thing.

02:29:38   And I'm not even saying how I use my current mouse is good,

02:29:41   RSI-wise, it's just the way I happen to do it.

02:29:44   But that definitely, like anything that requires you to hover or hold over or lift when you

02:29:48   didn't have to lift before as opposed to being a more relaxed thing is difficult.

02:29:52   Even if it's just a matter of like changing my habits to try to relax and do the same

02:29:55   move, I found that difficult to do.

02:29:58   And I'm looking at how I mouse, I realize what I also do, which is the reason a lot

02:30:01   of the much more ergonomic, strictly speaking, gaming mice and everything that let you like

02:30:05   put your whole hand on it.

02:30:06   They're kind of shaped like if you grabbed a big blob of clay and squeezed, you know,

02:30:11   where you have your whole hand on top of the thing, very large mice. The reason those don't

02:30:15   agree with me is that very often I rest my palm on the mouse pad and I'm only moving

02:30:22   the mouse with my thumb and my ring finger, but my palm is stationary for fine motion.

02:30:27   You ever do that?

02:30:28   Isn't that terrible?

02:30:30   It's not really that good. It probably doesn't seem that it's good, but it has the advantage

02:30:35   that I'm not holding my arm and wrist up poised over the thing. I don't know. I'm just saying

02:30:41   what I do. I'm looking down at what my hand does. I do find movements sometimes without moving my

02:30:45   hand. I'm only moving my fingers. And you can't do that if the mouse is so large that it expects

02:30:49   your entire hand to be on it, because then how could your, how could like the, the, the ball of

02:30:54   your palm or whatever be resting on the mouse? But not all the time. Like obviously when I'm mousing

02:30:58   way across the screen, I'm not doing that, but my palm actually is fairly close to the mouse pad a

02:31:03   lot of the time. And when I'm not moving, it goes back into rest, like on the mouse pad instead of

02:31:07   on the mouse. It's... Yeah, I think I'm the same way as you. Obviously I'm not looking at

02:31:10   at what you're describing, but the way you describe it,

02:31:13   it sounds like the exact same way I mouse.

02:31:15   - Yeah, and that's not a good fit

02:31:17   for the shape of the Apple mouse.

02:31:18   The Apple mouse is much better

02:31:19   if you're resting your hand on it,

02:31:21   kinda like you're petting a cute little white fuzzy mouse.

02:31:25   It's down there.

02:31:25   - I'm surprised, Marco, that for someone

02:31:28   who really, really has to have an ergonomic keyboard

02:31:31   that you can handle having such a woefully

02:31:35   non-ergonomic mouse.

02:31:37   - I mean, what it is mostly,

02:31:39   I mean, mousing for whatever reason

02:31:41   has not seemed to cause me problems,

02:31:43   whereas having to type on a non-ergonomic keyboard,

02:31:47   like one that doesn't have the split and the angle,

02:31:50   that caused me problems quickly.

02:31:52   One of the reasons I don't use a laptop full-time

02:31:56   is because I kind of can't.

02:31:58   I can use it for short periods,

02:32:00   temporary things like trips and stuff, and on planes,

02:32:02   but after a while, it hurts,

02:32:04   and whereas regular ones don't.

02:32:06   Mice, I've just always, for whatever reason,

02:32:07   I've always been fine using pretty much any mouse.

02:32:09   And what keeps me on the Magic Mouse,

02:32:12   people who don't like the Magic Mouse

02:32:14   dislike it so much that they are shocked

02:32:16   when they hear somebody like a computer nerd like us

02:32:18   uses one of these things.

02:32:20   And the main reason I use it is

02:32:22   once you get used to having inertial scrolling,

02:32:25   it is really hard not to have it.

02:32:27   And it's totally fine, it's great.

02:32:29   - I would like those features too.

02:32:32   I envy those features of the Magic Mouse.

02:32:33   Not enough for me to start using it

02:32:34   'cause it's too low and I hit the right-click,

02:32:36   But I would like to use that.

02:32:38   Whenever I'm using a Magic Mouse,

02:32:39   I appreciate that feature of it,

02:32:41   and I wish it was on a mouse with a shape that I liked.

02:32:44   - Keep holding out, John, someday.

02:32:45   - Oh, I don't have any hope of that.

02:32:47   Oh, by the way, can I-- - It'll be the same event

02:32:49   in which they unveil your gaming PC that will cost nothing.

02:32:52   - Yeah, yeah.

02:32:53   I don't know if I mentioned this on the show proper.

02:32:55   Maybe I just alluded to it a few times,

02:32:57   but it's worth putting in here for the faithful people

02:32:59   who listen this far into the show.

02:33:01   Did the show live up to the hello again hype

02:33:04   that an old school Mac user like me

02:33:08   received from that invitation?

02:33:09   No, no, it did not, not even close.

02:33:11   These are not on par with the original Mac.

02:33:13   These are not on par with the iMac.

02:33:15   These are not on par with the iPhone

02:33:17   that had hello in the commercial.

02:33:18   Hello again was inappropriate

02:33:21   if your goal was not to over-hype old fogies like me.

02:33:24   (phone chimes)

02:33:27   Do you know, you realize during the World Series

02:33:29   that this is the one time of year

02:33:30   that the fewest number of baseball teams are playing

02:33:32   when they're any playing at all.

02:33:33   - 'Cause it's just two teams.

02:33:35   - I didn't know that.

02:33:37   - I mean, you do, logically speaking,

02:33:38   know that when the championship is going on,

02:33:40   all the teams that are no longer in the championship

02:33:42   aren't playing anymore, right?

02:33:44   - So, wait, so I know they play like five or seven games,

02:33:47   right, it's the same two teams for all those games?

02:33:49   - Oh my God. - Do they just like play

02:33:50   'til somebody wins three of them or something?

02:33:51   - It's the World Series, like, if there's going to be,

02:33:54   think of it this way, there's a sport

02:33:56   that has a bunch of teams.

02:33:57   At one point, one team has to be the winner.

02:33:59   You do that by process of elimination.

02:34:01   - Yeah, but I just assumed that they were like,

02:34:03   know, maybe four or five teams that made it into the final group of games and then they

02:34:06   played the...

02:34:07   - Into the World Series?

02:34:08   - Yeah, I assumed it was like a small handful of teams, not just two.

02:34:11   - I don't know what part of the United States you grew up on where they allowed you to get

02:34:14   to adult age with knowing so little about baseball. Seems like a failure of the national

02:34:19   pastime.

02:34:20   - No, you know why? I grew up in Columbus, Ohio. Columbus does not have a pro team. It's

02:34:24   all about Ohio State, and I don't think they do baseball. So it's a big...

02:34:29   - Oh, they do baseball.

02:34:30   Well, okay, but nobody cares about it.

02:34:32   So it's a, sorry Columbus people,

02:34:34   so it's a big town for college football

02:34:37   and basically every other sport is kind of minimized

02:34:41   in Ohio, in Columbus specifically,

02:34:44   because Ohio State football is such a big deal.

02:34:47   So there's really no room in people's energy

02:34:49   and basketball a little bit,

02:34:51   but there's really no room there culturally

02:34:53   for anyone to really care that strongly about pro baseball.

02:34:57   - Anyway, the World Series is two teams.

02:34:59   There's two leagues, the National League and the American League.

02:35:02   The number one team from the National League plays the number one team from the American

02:35:04   League.

02:35:05   If you win, if you are the number one team in the National or American League, that's

02:35:07   called winning the pennant, and then those two teams go to the World Series.

02:35:10   Wait, so winning the World Series is not winning a pennant?

02:35:14   What do they win at the end of the World Series?

02:35:16   Winning the pennant is when you, there's three bases, you hit the ball, you're like,

02:35:20   it's just, jeez, like.

02:35:21   Do they win a flag at the end of the World Series?

02:35:22   Like, what happens?

02:35:23   Like, what do they win?

02:35:24   The trophy is terrible, the World Series trophy, but anyway, no.

02:35:27   There's just two teams.

02:35:28   is during the regular season, in any given day, many teams are playing. They're all playing

02:35:32   each other to see who's win-loss record is going to be better to get into the playoffs

02:35:36   and blah blah blah. But during the World Series, you're down to two teams. That's it. That's

02:35:40   the— Wait, wait. Are the playoffs different? Yes.

02:35:42   Can we just stop? This is— I honestly don't know. Anyway, the point is, there's actually

02:35:49   less baseball on than normal. Although, I don't follow baseball either. For all I know,

02:35:53   the World Series is over. Is the World Series over? In case you might know.

02:35:56   No it's not. Last I heard it was either tied up or two to one.

02:36:00   And is it, which game number in the seven is this?

02:36:03   Oh it's two to one, you can figure it out. What?

02:36:07   It was two games to one! They played three games!

02:36:10   Oh, I thought that was the score of tonight's game that was still going,

02:36:14   because baseball takes forever. I figure that was the score of the game that's

02:36:16   happening right now.

02:36:17   Is there a game happening right now? I don't know, I thought there was but I'm

02:36:20   not sure.

02:36:20   Stupidly watching the toadies. Oh my god.

02:36:23   That's right. That's right.

02:36:25   Like, blammer in the chat. "I fell asleep and just woke up to an exasperated

02:36:30   Syracuse explaining baseball."

02:36:35   Welcome to our world. Like, if I'm explaining baseball, something's gone terribly wrong.

02:36:40   Well, yes.

02:36:41   The president doesn't know whether the World Series is over yet. This is—everything is

02:36:45   relative. You have to, like, take the entire scale and skew it way over to one end, and

02:36:50   then you're into the ATP zone for sports.

02:36:52   It is not today. They are playing game three on Friday. So it is tied one to one. They

02:36:58   are playing game three tomorrow.

02:37:00   So they've each won one game and they just play till somebody wins four of them, I guess?

02:37:04   Correct.

02:37:05   Right. So that's why they don't always play all seven games.

02:37:08   Correct.

02:37:09   Okay.

02:37:10   You okay? Do you need an aspirin?

02:37:12   I know. I'm good because I will see none of these games. I will know mostly not what happens

02:37:18   in them except at the end. I know that it's meaningful because it hasn't happened in a

02:37:22   a very long time that I guess the Cubs are in it. They're one of the two teams. So I

02:37:26   know I know that's significant. Do you know about the goat curse? No. See all these things

02:37:30   that you can know about baseball that are fun sounding? The goat curse is so ridiculous

02:37:35   though. I don't know, this doesn't sound fun to me. It's not. Here's the fun part of it.

02:37:41   The origin of the goat curse is from a time when you can bring your goat to the baseball

02:37:45   game with you apparently. Yikes. Like go to the park, go into the stands, go find your

02:37:50   But bring your goat because well it was like it was the 40s right it was a long very long time ago

02:37:53   Yeah, it's a very long time ago

02:37:55   But surely you can appreciate the idea of bringing your goat to the baseball game and who who are they what's the other team?

02:38:00   That's in the series Cleveland. Oh

02:38:02   Who cares about them as someone pointed out in a tweet?

02:38:06   It's Sarah for a sans serif because there were logos are both sees, but one has service that was pretty magnificent

02:38:11   I don't remember who that was so it

02:38:13   I mean it's gotta be a little bit hard to be the Cleveland whatever is in this series because like

02:38:19   Basically, nobody wants them to win like everybody wants the Cubs wings. It would be so amazing, right people in Cleveland want them to win

02:38:25   Do they really but like wouldn't wouldn't even yes, they really do

02:38:28   But wouldn't even they be like really really happy to see the Cubs win it

02:38:32   I don't think you understand how sports works sports fandom works

02:38:35   Wouldn't they be happy for the team that hadn't won in a long time? No

02:38:38   Plus Cleveland already won the NBA championship

02:38:43   And so if they were to win the MLB championship,

02:38:47   that would be a huge big deal as well.

02:38:49   So that is all the justification a Cleveland fan needs

02:38:52   to be all about Cleveland and screw the Cubs.

02:38:56   - Do people like cross sports a lot like that?

02:38:58   Do they really care that things happen

02:39:01   across different sports in the same city?

02:39:03   Is that a thing?

02:39:04   - Do you care if Apple releases great iPhones and Macs?

02:39:07   I mean, they're two different things from the same company.

02:39:09   It's a very weak analogy, but it's still the same thing.

02:39:13   It's about fandom and about being proud of where you live for completely illogical reasons.

02:39:19   Well, reasons that are explicable in terms of tribalism but don't make any sense.

02:39:25   Anyway, whatever.

02:39:26   Yes, people love it.

02:39:27   They love it.

02:39:28   Red Sox win, Patriots win.

02:39:29   They love it.

02:39:30   Can we please make an accidental sports podcast where you just explain a sport to me every

02:39:36   week?

02:39:37   I already have.

02:39:38   The title of our sports podcast would clearly be The Blind Leading the Blind.

02:39:41   That would be our sports podcast.

02:39:43   We were like, "Sports?

02:39:44   How do they work?"

02:39:47   Although I could explain, I feel like I am a fairly big expert in tennis, so at least

02:39:51   there's one sport that I understand very, very thoroughly.

02:39:55   But even that, I don't understand all the particulars of the intricacies of the different

02:39:59   kinds of, like, the mechanisms of the league.

02:40:02   I just understand the game itself.

02:40:04   Wow.

02:40:05   We should do an F1 podcast.

02:40:07   Oh, that would be good.

02:40:08   stone yeah oh geez you know McLaren's more of a technology company actually

02:40:16   they're more of a carbon fiber manufacturer actually McLaren's more of

02:40:20   a food service company if you think about it really oh I can't believe we're

02:40:24   still going I guess we're not now but I was surprisingly fired up after this

02:40:28   thing too and I'm all worked up you should go watch some support no I don't

02:40:33   - I'm doing that singular crap.

02:40:34   - Yeah, that's bull (beep)

02:40:35   - Total.

02:40:36   (laughing)

02:40:38   Get my maths mixed up with my sport.

02:40:40   I feel like sport should be pronounced

02:40:41   like with a silent T, like spore.

02:40:44   - Yeah, why don't you, yeah, watch your sport

02:40:47   while you do some maths.

02:40:48   That's just, no, stop.

02:40:50   That's why their English is a rough draft.

02:40:53   - So, oh, I forgot to ask, did your flippies

02:40:55   or whatever lose, what happened?

02:40:58   - Hokies won.

02:40:59   - Oh, okay, and that's the one you were rooting for, right?

02:41:01   - That's correct. - Yeah, that's, yeah, cool.

02:41:02   Congratulations for something.

02:41:04   Yay.

02:41:05   Actually, it's a good season.

02:41:07   We're bowl qualified now.

02:41:08   Wait, for which... aren't there like ten bowls?

02:41:11   Which bowl?

02:41:12   There's like a hundred bowls, but you have to have six wins.

02:41:14   Enough bowls to go around.

02:41:15   It's like the trophies for like little kids today.

02:41:17   Everyone gets a trophy and everyone gets a bowl.

02:41:20   Not everyone gets to play in them though.

02:41:21   But almost everyone.

02:41:22   Enough so everyone feels good about themselves.

02:41:24   (beeping)