192: Hello Again Again


00:00:00   When did I la la la? I don't remember that at all.

00:00:02   You did. You la la la'd. You had like messed up what you were saying and had started over.

00:00:05   And then it was adorable. Marco will find it.

00:00:08   Okay. I mean, I'm not mad about it. I just don't recall having done it.

00:00:12   I don't remember anything.

00:00:12   Okay, let's lock it up.

00:00:17   For the second consecutive week, I think I'm the only one with follow-up, which is

00:00:24   kind of freaking me out a little bit.

00:00:25   Well, Jon and I are just perfect now. Just no one can challenge us in anything.

00:00:28   No, I was going to put the same thing in, but you beat me to it, so I just let you do

00:00:32   it.

00:00:33   Oh, thanks.

00:00:34   Thanks.

00:00:35   I think.

00:00:36   Anyway, sorry to tread on your follow-ups, sir.

00:00:37   So anyway, so there is a podcast by a German fellow whose name I don't have in front of

00:00:44   me because I make the worst show notes in the world, Chris Marquardt.

00:00:47   Was very nice to talk about us on his photography podcast, Tips from the Top Floor.

00:00:51   It was episode 748.

00:00:53   It was about halfway through the episode, give or take some, so we'll put an overcast

00:00:58   link in the show notes as well. Wait, wait, wait. Are we just gonna, we're just gonna glide right by

00:01:01   episode 748 of a podcast? Well, I mean, it's impressive. 748? That is the highest

00:01:08   podcast episode number I've ever seen in my life. Oh, they go way higher than that.

00:01:12   So what, I mean, obviously I don't listen to the right kind of shows. What kind of

00:01:15   shows, I guess, daily shows go over the hundreds? I don't listen to any daily

00:01:19   podcasts. Sure, I mean, yeah, obviously anything daily that lasts for more than a

00:01:23   few years, but also, like, you'd be surprised how many podcasts out there

00:01:26   they're published more than one episode a day.

00:01:29   Usually these are things that are just dumped off

00:01:32   of radio broadcasts, so you'll have like,

00:01:36   radio broadcast of today, hour one, hour two,

00:01:39   hour three, hour four, as four different episodes

00:01:41   in the podcast.

00:01:42   - Oy.

00:01:43   - Well, I don't listen to those kind of podcasts,

00:01:44   but anyway, this is not that kind of podcast, though.

00:01:46   - I don't know that anybody listens to those kind

00:01:48   of podcasts, but lots of people publish them.

00:01:50   - Yeah.

00:01:51   - That's weird.

00:01:51   So anyway, so on 748, episode 748 of Chris Marquardt's

00:01:56   podcast photography tips from the top floor.

00:01:59   He discussed what we were discussing about how to keep dust out of your digital camera

00:02:05   while you are changing lenses.

00:02:08   And I thought that was an interesting discussion and the kind of short, short version is you

00:02:13   really don't need to worry about it because it's unlikely that you're going to run into

00:02:17   any sort of problem that will cause a visual distortion on your images.

00:02:23   And I'm oversimplifying for sure.

00:02:24   should definitely check out the episode, but there were three links that he pointed his

00:02:29   listeners to, including me, because I listened to it.

00:02:32   And I think all three were Lensrentals.com blog posts.

00:02:37   Now if you recall, I think all three of us, certainly I, have been patrons of Lensrentals.

00:02:43   They're not a sponsor, but we've all used them.

00:02:45   And these three posts on their blog, from as far back as 2008 actually, involve what

00:02:52   can happen to a lens and whether or not that really affects the image that comes out of

00:03:00   the camera.

00:03:01   And so they talk about in the first one getting lens dust on the screen and do some really

00:03:07   interesting tests to show that unless you get fairly extreme, and again I'm getting

00:03:16   a little hand-wavy and oversimplifying, but unless you get fairly extreme you're probably

00:03:20   not going to notice this distortion. And in fact, they put little post-it note slivers

00:03:27   onto the lens to show that it almost made no difference except very extreme scenarios.

00:03:33   And that was just mind-boggling to me, that a piece of post-it note that looked like it

00:03:37   was two to three millimeters square really, in basic setups, didn't seem to matter. That

00:03:44   blew my mind. And when you use really narrow aperture, it did seem to matter. But wide

00:03:50   open especially, it made almost no difference. Is that a fair summary of that first link?

00:03:54   All right, I'll take that as yes. Moving on. And then the second link they had was about

00:04:02   scratches and whether or not scratches on a lens make a difference. And they posted

00:04:06   within their blog post two pictures. One is of a waste management dumpster. It is not

00:04:13   on fire. One is of a piece of paper and these images, I mean they are not remarkable, but

00:04:20   there was no obvious damage, if you will, to these images. These images looked like

00:04:25   they were taken with a regular lens. And then you scroll down and you see the lens they

00:04:29   were taken with and it has like, I don't know, maybe 10 cracks straight through the lens

00:04:35   in, you know, kind of like a wheel, like spokes on a wheel kind of shape. It was crazy, and

00:04:41   And it is crazy to me that this lens that is effectively shattered somehow ends up producing

00:04:48   images that are okay.

00:04:50   So those were the two that I think were most directly applicable to the sorts of things

00:04:57   that maybe any one of us would run into.

00:04:59   But the third one was the most ridiculous, which is—it's entitled "I don't know why

00:05:05   it swallowed a fly.

00:05:06   Weather-sealed lens with a fly inside.

00:05:09   Spoiler alert!

00:05:10   This lens had a fly within it.

00:05:13   It is ridiculous that this fly got all the way deep, deep, deep within this lens.

00:05:18   Because this is their business, they had to take it apart and repair it, and they kind

00:05:21   of go through how they did that.

00:05:22   But it was incredible to me that such a thing was even possible, because I assumed, obviously

00:05:28   ignorantly so, I assumed that these things were hermetically sealed and all that, but

00:05:32   their point was, "Hey, if this lens is a zoom lens where things are moving, something has

00:05:38   to take up the space that's just been vacated and that thing is air.

00:05:42   So air is getting in and out of these lenses whether you like it or not and occasionally

00:05:46   you can find a pretty big gap where a small fly can fly through.

00:05:49   So I just thought these were all really really interesting posts.

00:05:53   The podcast Tips on the Top Floor, the episode was definitely really good and worth listening

00:05:58   to.

00:05:59   So definitely check all this stuff out if you're at all interested in any of this.

00:06:02   And this is also by the way one of the reasons why the higher end zoom lenses don't have

00:06:07   any externally moving elements most of the time.

00:06:11   It doesn't make it perfect.

00:06:13   Still, stuff can still get in,

00:06:14   especially dust being just like sucked in through

00:06:16   like seals and stuff.

00:06:17   But this lens is one of those things where as you zoom in,

00:06:21   the whole end of it gets a lot longer

00:06:22   as this whole kind of internal barrel sticks out.

00:06:25   Whereas the high-end zoom lenses will typically

00:06:28   retain their exterior shape and dimensions

00:06:32   at all the different zoom lengths.

00:06:33   Like all the zooming is basically happening inside the lens.

00:06:36   And there's lots of benefits to that,

00:06:37   but one of them is that it's less likely to suck in an entire fly.

00:06:40   Yeah, it's just absolutely ridiculous to me that any of this happened.

00:06:44   Yeah, so the one thing you left out was the main topic of conversation is the idea of

00:06:48   a door that goes down in front of the sensor for when you're changing lenses.

00:06:52   And so the most relevant piece of information about that was the idea that even when the

00:06:58   lens is on your camera, the dust can get inside it.

00:07:01   And you know, the telescoping thing with the ones that move externally, with both the internal

00:07:06   external ones it probably depends on the design of the camera because with a

00:07:09   purely internal one there doesn't need to be any net air movement inside and

00:07:13   outside the lens because the same amount of air is in there as long as there's

00:07:15   some way for you know the air that's already inside the completely

00:07:18   unchanging shape of cylindrical barrel of the thing like that'll be fine and for

00:07:22   the ones that do move I don't know enough about zoom lenses to know if

00:07:25   there is a glass element between the part that moves and the rest of the

00:07:30   camera so yes you mind that if you have a thing where the lens actually gets

00:07:33   longer and shorter, then there's some air exchange taking place there. But is that air

00:07:37   exchange causing air to enter into the sensor chamber and out of it, or is it just causing

00:07:42   air to enter into the front part of the zoom lens in and out? But either way, the whole

00:07:47   point is when the lens is on, things can get in. I'm still in favor of the door though,

00:07:52   and I'll tell you why. One of those other points was that like, the dust just floats

00:07:55   in the air, it doesn't go down into your camera. But that's, I mean, it's true that dust is

00:07:59   not going to make a diving, a bombing run for your camera as soon as it sees the lens

00:08:03   is off because that's not sentient. But the net movement of dust is still down. The net

00:08:08   movement of dust wasn't down. We have dust all over our ceilings and not all over our

00:08:11   furniture. And the other thing is the the type of things that can get onto your sensor,

00:08:18   not the lens, you know, the lens stuff is different, but things that can get onto your

00:08:21   sensor, small things can make a big difference. In particular, things that were on my sensor.

00:08:25   The theory that people had is that it was big enough for me to see and it was it stuck

00:08:28   to the thing and it must have been pollen or something. The bigger, the chunkier the

00:08:33   piece of dust, the harder it is for it to get through any kind of ceiling in a lens,

00:08:39   right? Especially for a prime lens where nothing is moving and it's all closed up, but at the

00:08:42   main time you are vulnerable to dust is when, not when there's a tiny crack opening in,

00:08:47   you know, some kind of ceiling thing, but when there's a huge gaping opening and if

00:08:51   pollen is blowing around, that's the time when the piece of pollen is going to come

00:08:54   in and get stuck to your sensor. So, would a sensor, as I said on the show, I didn't

00:08:58   even have faith that a sensor would actually even seal off a door that would

00:09:01   actually even seal off the sensor even if there was a door because the door is

00:09:04   not gonna have a perfect seal either but I still say it's better than completely

00:09:08   open gigantic opening to the air and I still say it is better to not have your

00:09:14   sensor facing upward for any appreciable amount of time because although dust

00:09:18   does kind of float in the air the heavier and the bigger the dust the more

00:09:21   likely it is to go down and if you leave there long enough dust will settle on

00:09:24   your sensor and dust on the sensor unlike dust in lenses actually is

00:09:27   surprisingly visible at small sizes because that's a whole different ballgame than dust

00:09:32   way out there somewhere in the path that light takes as it goes through these giant pieces

00:09:36   of glass.

00:09:37   This is on the sensor, like directly on the little whatever thing that protects the, you

00:09:42   know, it's very close to the actual things that sense the light, so a small piece of

00:09:45   dust or pollen can make a big difference.

00:09:47   So I'm still pro-door, but in the meantime I'm still being super careful.

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00:11:15   So just earlier today as we record, there has been an announcement that we are going

00:11:20   to talk about the Mac, or really Apple is going to talk about the Mac on October 27th.

00:11:25   Mediated invites have gone out and as usual Apple's keeping things close to the chest,

00:11:31   under the vest, whatever the phrasing is.

00:11:33   Under the vest?

00:11:34   Do people actually say that?

00:11:35   No, I just, close to the chest just sounded wrong.

00:11:38   He just, he's got his merswexed again.

00:11:41   It happens from time to time.

00:11:42   We are professionals kids, don't try this at home.

00:11:44   So the invite has a colorful Apple logo, or most of one anyway, and it says "Hello"

00:11:49   again beneath it and of course all the old Apple nerds like John Sierakusa are

00:11:55   remembering some old Mac I don't even know which one it was that said hello

00:11:58   again on the screen. Some old Mac? I knew you were gonna love this. I swear to God I did that on purpose just to see

00:12:06   you get where we're here you get riled up. It's hard to know with you guys I'm reminiscing

00:12:11   about leopard. So which old which important Mac was it John? Well that's

00:12:16   That's the one bold point I put in this invitation.

00:12:19   Normally, I don't put much stock in spending time looking at these invitation images.

00:12:24   You know, they're fun, they're amusing, it's great to see them or whatever, but whatever.

00:12:27   Like the announcement people.

00:12:28   I think time has shown, for the most part, the announcement images connect to what is

00:12:34   announced in a less interesting way than people imagine.

00:12:38   Like they're always looking for something really interesting.

00:12:39   And there's a connection very often.

00:12:42   Usually that connection is pretty obvious and the obvious interpretation is correct

00:12:45   and it's not a big deal.

00:12:46   The reason I think this one is interesting and probably interesting in a bad way is not

00:12:52   because of the picture, which appears to be an Apple logo with—what do you guys think

00:12:55   that is?

00:12:56   Smoke?

00:12:57   I think?

00:12:58   Just color blobs?

00:12:59   It looks like a blurred version of the aurora borealis behind some dark trees at night.

00:13:04   Yeah, that's good interpretation.

00:13:06   Wow.

00:13:07   But, like, it's an ink blob.

00:13:09   And maybe that will connect to what is announced in a way that is obvious after the fact or

00:13:13   whatever.

00:13:14   also has text underneath and the text says "Hello" again.

00:13:17   And all lowercase in, I don't know, is that San Francisco?

00:13:20   I'm not good at identifying fonts, probably.

00:13:22   - Beats me.

00:13:23   - And that is significant because the original Macintosh

00:13:26   was famously, to people who are alive and into tech then,

00:13:31   introduced with a "Hello" in script written in Mac Paint

00:13:35   on the screen, kind of like, you know,

00:13:37   a very humanistic way for the computer to announce itself

00:13:41   rather than, you know, monospace font or text

00:13:44   whatever was hello written in script in a big thick line, right? And that didn't show

00:13:50   up again as a marketing motif, other than referencing back to the original marketing

00:13:55   motif, until the iMac, when Steve Jobs had returned, and it's the first big important

00:13:59   product that—

00:14:00   Oh, God, was it the first iMac?

00:14:01   Yes, it was the first iMac.

00:14:02   Oh, God.

00:14:03   And that one said—

00:14:04   Now I'm embarrassed.

00:14:05   —"Hello," and then in parentheses again. And the reason that said "hello" again

00:14:09   is because it was kind of announcing this new computer, this weird teal thing that you've

00:14:13   never seen before, like it looks like no other Mac that's been announced, like along with

00:14:17   the iPod, the products that turned around Apple from this company that was going out

00:14:22   of business to a company that paid attention to the iMac really I think was the thing that

00:14:25   made people say, oh, maybe Apple's not going out of business after all, which is not, you

00:14:29   know, that's damning with faint praise.

00:14:32   Oh, I guess they're not going out of business.

00:14:33   But people paid attention and it was interesting.

00:14:35   Was the original iMac the best computer in the world?

00:14:37   No, but it was a very important computer.

00:14:40   It was important to Apple because it meant that they were a vibrant company that could

00:14:44   do interesting things that people wanted to look at.

00:14:47   And it was important to the entire industry that it influenced how technology and computing

00:14:51   hardware was made from that point forward.

00:14:53   I talked about all the teal irons and vacuums and all sorts of other things, how it just

00:14:58   influenced industrial design and brought a new focus on what computers look like from

00:15:02   before they were just basically beige boxes and Apple's had classier beige boxes.

00:15:06   But it didn't make a difference and then all of a sudden this one was in your face, you

00:15:10   could not ignore it.

00:15:11   It looked totally different from anything else.

00:15:12   So "hello again" felt appropriate.

00:15:15   Appropriate time gap.

00:15:16   What was the iMac like?

00:15:17   1998?

00:15:18   From 1984 to 1998?

00:15:21   That's when they felt like it was important and significant enough to reference back to

00:15:25   the original Mac's "hello."

00:15:27   And I give them that.

00:15:28   I say, "Alright, hello again."

00:15:29   It fit with that.

00:15:30   It was an important, dramatic moment in the history of Apple.

00:15:35   time to reference back to the original Mac. Now they're saying it, no parentheses this time,

00:15:39   and the obvious interpretation is, "Oh, this is going to be an announcement about Macs,"

00:15:44   which, surprise, that's what everyone assumes it's going to be. This is the time when they're

00:15:47   going to announce some kind of Macs, and we'll talk about which Macs those might be in a little

00:15:50   bit. And it's a nice way of saying, "We know it's been a long time since we introduced Macs,

00:15:56   so here's some Macs," right? But I feel like by using "hello" again, they are implying a

00:16:04   significance that I don't think they can deliver on unless they are doing RMACs.

00:16:07   Oh, that's bold.

00:16:08   They're implying a significance, a significant event, as important as the original Macintosh

00:16:13   or the first iMac. And the only thing they can announce today, the only thing that is in any

00:16:18   of the rumors or whatever, that they can announce tomorrow or whenever next week, that will live up

00:16:25   to hello again, is if they are substantially altering the Mac line in a way that is obvious

00:16:32   and as dramatic as the iMac was or as the original Mac was.

00:16:36   And maybe even RMX doesn't qualify for that.

00:16:38   Only along nerds it would qualify,

00:16:39   'cause people don't care what the hell chip is

00:16:40   in their computers, right?

00:16:41   But at least to nerds, that would be significant.

00:16:43   It would be a big transition.

00:16:44   But I don't think they're gonna announce RMX.

00:16:46   I think they're just gonna announce a bunch of new Macs

00:16:47   that are pretty cool.

00:16:49   I don't know if it deserves a hello again.

00:16:50   I feel like I've been over-hyped.

00:16:52   (laughing)

00:16:53   - Already raining on everyone's parade

00:16:55   and we're over a week away.

00:16:57   This has only been an announcement for like six hours.

00:17:00   - Oh, it's the word.

00:17:00   You can't you can't tell it like you can't overuse it like the one more thing

00:17:03   They've used sparingly for the most part and I almost give them a pass on that because I feel like one more thing was used

00:17:08   So many times hello has only been used

00:17:10   You know the original Mac constant references the original Mac and then the iMac with again in parentheses

00:17:15   And now they're using it now because they haven't released max in like a year

00:17:18   It's not if they're trying to do it to like, you know

00:17:20   To engender good feelings. It's not working on me and I don't think there's anything they can deliver

00:17:26   They will live up to the significance of that to old fogies like me

00:17:29   Everyone else doesn't care like no one knows what the hell knows about hello again. You didn't even know it was the original iMac

00:17:32   Like it's not a stumble for the company, but for me as an old-school Mac user

00:17:37   I feel like this is an inappropriate use of that slogan and or they can announce new amazing Macs that are totally on par with

00:17:44   The iMac and the original Mac, but I'm not holding my breath. Yeah, I mean like I think I

00:17:49   Don't doubt that it is possible to do something in the Mac lineup that would justify this level of old-school reference

00:17:58   hype but I really don't think it's very likely that that's what they've done this time just

00:18:03   because of the situation the Mac has been in for all this time, the relative importance

00:18:10   of the Mac to Apple that at least the way it seems is fairly low these days. So I really

00:18:17   doubt that they have done what you would expect from this kind of reference. That being said,

00:18:22   I mean, you know, the "again" now is not in parentheses, so maybe that means that they

00:18:27   deleted more ports. I don't know.

00:18:30   That's the other thing, like, you can do "hello" and then you can do "hello again," but if you do "again again,"

00:18:36   yeah, you're kind of out of ideas.

00:18:39   So, I mean, that could be the way they're saying it's not as significant as you think. We're referencing "hello,"

00:18:42   but obviously we already did "hello again," and now we're doing it again again. If they had did "hello again again,"

00:18:49   I mean, they did the, what is it, the funnest iPod.

00:18:52   Why not Hello Again Again?

00:18:53   I wonder what killed that one in the meeting to come up with this slogan.

00:18:57   Bigger is bigger.

00:18:58   Probably a ten minute meeting, because again, who cares about these images?

00:19:01   Who even knows they exist except for like tech journalists and people who read tech

00:19:04   sites?

00:19:05   That's the thing, I mean, like they disappear.

00:19:06   The moment the event starts, these images disappear from the world.

00:19:09   Yeah, and no one cares about them.

00:19:11   Once the thing is over, no one goes back and says, "Oh, I guess, you know, it turned out

00:19:14   they were announcing, you know, back to the Mac.

00:19:17   did announce a bunch of Mac stuff.

00:19:19   So anyway, I personally feel like I have been overhyped.

00:19:22   In the grand scheme of things,

00:19:24   hello again doesn't matter at all, but I won't forget.

00:19:27   - So here's a question.

00:19:28   So the MacBook Pro, based on the rumors and everything

00:19:32   that have been fairly consistent for quite a long time now,

00:19:36   so I think there's, you know, probably one of those

00:19:37   like where the smoke is fire situations

00:19:39   where we can be pretty sure at least some

00:19:41   of what's being announced next week by this point.

00:19:44   And it sure seems like the MacBook Pro is getting

00:19:48   a noteworthy update, but not like a revolutionary update.

00:19:52   You know, like, it might be getting some cool

00:19:55   software mappable function keys.

00:19:56   Like, okay, that's fine, but you know,

00:19:59   it's probably not gonna be amazingly revolutionary.

00:20:02   It's probably gonna be, you know, a nice to have.

00:20:04   It's probably going to get a little bit smaller,

00:20:07   a little bit lighter.

00:20:08   That's also, you know, not revolutionary,

00:20:10   just nice to have.

00:20:11   It's probably gonna be, you know, a little faster,

00:20:13   little slightly more updated things,

00:20:14   touch ID maybe for unlocking.

00:20:16   Again, nice to have.

00:20:18   So it's gonna add up to a really nice update

00:20:21   in all likelihood.

00:20:22   But to be this revolutionary,

00:20:25   what you're expecting from this use of this reference,

00:20:27   I don't think it stands a chance.

00:20:29   One thing I am a little curious about

00:20:31   is that 13-inch Retina MacBook Air.

00:20:33   I'm telling you, there's something there.

00:20:36   We've been hearing about the MacBook Pro forever now.

00:20:42   We've been hearing about this updated MacBook Pro

00:20:44   and rumor sites for what, six months at least?

00:20:46   It's been a long time.

00:20:47   And then we've heard almost nothing

00:20:50   about whatever this 13-inch MacBook or MacBook Air

00:20:54   is being released, allegedly.

00:20:57   Maybe that is gonna be more interesting

00:20:59   'cause they sure sell a lot of MacBook Airs.

00:21:03   And so even though the geeks like us

00:21:05   have been focused on all the retina machines

00:21:07   for the last four years since they introduced the first one,

00:21:10   they still continue to sell a ton of MacBook Airs

00:21:13   because they're very affordable, they're very practical,

00:21:17   they're a really good balance of lots of things.

00:21:18   I've gone over this before.

00:21:19   I wonder if maybe the really significant machine

00:21:22   of this event is actually that 13-inch MacBook Air,

00:21:25   or whatever it is that is going to fill that slot now.

00:21:28   I don't know.

00:21:29   - So let's suppose for a second

00:21:30   that there is a 13-inch MacBook of some flavor

00:21:34   that is Retina.

00:21:35   Why would that be an Air and not just a 13-inch MacBook?

00:21:39   That's the problem with all these rumors because they keep saying the 13-inch MacBook Air.

00:21:42   As we all know from a long time watching rumors things, the one thing that rumors sites pretty

00:21:48   much never know, the two things they pretty much never know, are the name and the price.

00:21:53   Because those are easily changeable and they're not important for most people to know who would

00:21:57   leak, a small number of people can know them, name and price leak last and sometimes price not at all.

00:22:02   And they have to, but they have to keep referring to this, you know, whatever they have rumors and

00:22:07   and part leaks and things, people who have seen things or whatever.

00:22:10   Even people who are working on the machine don't know what it's going to be named because

00:22:12   that's not their department.

00:22:13   All they know is that there's a 13-inch screen and something having to do with a laptop.

00:22:17   And we've discussed in the past, like maybe that 13-inch screen was for, is that a 13-inch

00:22:21   MacBook Pro?

00:22:22   Is it a 13-inch MacBook?

00:22:23   Is it an Air replacement?

00:22:25   The whole point is you could have someone with this machine sitting in front of them

00:22:27   right now and get them on the phone and say, "So is that a MacBook Air?"

00:22:30   I'm like, "I don't know.

00:22:31   I can just describe to you the machine.

00:22:33   I don't know how it's going to be sold.

00:22:34   Is it going to have the Air name on it or not?"

00:22:36   if it's retina, like what makes it at this point, air is defined by not having a retina

00:22:40   screen. Like that's what distinguishes it today, by having old ports and not having

00:22:45   a retina screen. So I don't know. If they have a laptop that fits into that slot in

00:22:52   their lineup somehow, I think it's fine. But I don't know if we can, by continually referring

00:22:57   it to as a 13-inch MacBook Air, I think it sets weird expectations about it. Like, you

00:23:01   know, does that mean it has to be really cheap? Does that mean it has to have more ports than

00:23:06   we would expect? Does that mean it has to have a non-retina screen or otherwise it's

00:23:09   not an Air? Or does it just have to have the name Air on it and it'll be like, "Surprise!

00:23:13   Apple's decided to keep that line going even though there's no real reason to."

00:23:16   Well, but, you know, Air does mean something in hardware terms. The Air has always used

00:23:22   this line of Intel CPUs that has a thermal power of roughly 17 watts. And the MacBook

00:23:29   One uses like 6 watt CPUs, so it's a lot less power and therefore it can be fanless,

00:23:34   but it also is not nearly as fast,

00:23:36   can't sustain a load for nearly as long,

00:23:38   and has a bunch of limitations,

00:23:40   like in how many ports it can have

00:23:41   due to various limitations of the chipset

00:23:42   and everything else.

00:23:43   So the MacBook One,

00:23:45   like it's never gonna be as powerful

00:23:47   as a recently updated MacBook Air could be,

00:23:51   because the MacBook Air just has a much higher power budget.

00:23:55   And then above the MacBook Air,

00:23:57   you have the 13 and 15 inch MacBook Pros,

00:23:58   and those use,

00:23:59   I mean the 15 inch uses like a 45 watt line.

00:24:03   I forget what wattage is, 13 inches,

00:24:04   I think it's like 25 or 30.

00:24:06   Anyway, whatever it is, it's a lot more than 17.

00:24:08   And so you have this slot in the middle.

00:24:10   And the MacBook Air, one of the reasons it could be so thin

00:24:15   and so light and so small is because these really low power

00:24:18   CPUs were just an awesome balance

00:24:21   of power versus performance.

00:24:23   That lineup of these little 17 watt CPUs

00:24:27   has been as yet completely unused

00:24:30   in anything with a retina screen.

00:24:31   and therefore completely unused in anything that a power user like us might care about

00:24:35   because most of us want retina screens.

00:24:37   But it turns out that balance is awesome.

00:24:40   For what most people need out of a laptop, you know the MacBook One, the most recent

00:24:44   MacBook One, the second one, got a lot faster than the first one.

00:24:47   But it's still nowhere near what an updated Air could do.

00:24:51   And the MacBook One, a lot of people complain that, and I used one briefly, I know, "You

00:24:55   know, it's kind of slow."

00:24:56   Well it turns out that the MacBook Air has a lot fewer people complaining about slowness

00:25:00   because MacBook Air CPUs can actually be substantially

00:25:03   faster, and so to not use that processor line in anything,

00:25:07   I think, is a waste because it's such a good balance

00:25:10   of battery life and low heat versus performance.

00:25:13   Now, what they could do is basically have the MacBook Pro

00:25:17   13-inch come down and use that processor line,

00:25:22   or at least offer it as an option,

00:25:24   and kind of replace what the Air used to be.

00:25:27   But then, you have nothing using these here.

00:25:29   David Schaub in the chat has clarified that the 13 inch uses a 28 watt CPU.

00:25:32   So it basically goes 5 or 6 watts for the MacBook One, 16 or 17 for the Air, 28 for

00:25:38   the 13, and 45 for the 15.

00:25:40   So these are distinct power classes that are pretty far from each other.

00:25:45   You know, the MacBook Air compared to the 13 inch, it's twice as much.

00:25:48   I mean it's, or it's twice or half as much.

00:25:51   It's a huge gap.

00:25:52   And the MacBook One to MacBook Air is three times as much.

00:25:55   So these are major power differences in the heat,

00:25:58   the battery life, the budget,

00:26:00   like these are huge power differences.

00:26:02   And that's why these computers are able to be so different

00:26:04   in size and in battery life.

00:26:06   It's not because they choose the sizes arbitrarily,

00:26:09   it's because this massive power sucking component

00:26:12   of the computer is chosen and kind of in these buckets

00:26:17   and then they can shrink the rest of the computer

00:26:20   around that so that it can be the smallest lightest computer

00:26:23   possible that can still give an X-Watt CPU enough battery life to be practical and useful

00:26:29   to people.

00:26:30   What I was getting at with the Air line not having a place anymore is because the Air

00:26:33   line was introduced as the "ultraportable" and the Air name is going away because the

00:26:38   iPad Air is now replaced by the iPad, even though they still sell it, like it's on its

00:26:41   way out.

00:26:42   And the Air laptop continues to have the name "Air" despite the fact that it is no longer

00:26:46   the smallest, lightest laptop.

00:26:48   So what I would totally expect out of a 13-inch computer that people keep calling a 13-inch

00:26:51   MacBook Air is for it to be a 13-inch MacBook, not a 13-inch MacBook Pro using the 15 or

00:26:57   28, you know, 15-watt CPU in there, but to be a 13-inch MacBook. Because I don't think

00:27:03   there's anything that says that the MacBook has to be fanless. The really small MacBook

00:27:07   can be fanless. The next one up can have a wee little fan in it. And then you go Pro

00:27:12   13 and Pro 15. That seems like a line that makes sense to me. MacBook Pro and MacBook.

00:27:17   I see no place for the Air branding except for as a legacy thing where it's like they

00:27:22   have non-retina screens, they're super cheap, and you're right that it's weird that they've

00:27:25   been the only one to have this particular balance of power and, you know, size.

00:27:31   That's Apple's fault for just deciding to let the Air be like this legacy line and not

00:27:35   using that chip anyplace else, but I think now will be the time to use that chip someplace

00:27:39   else or the chips in that class, not the specific chip.

00:27:42   And I think it is more natural for it to fit

00:27:45   as a 13-inch MacBook than to fit as

00:27:48   like pushing up the line or whatever.

00:27:50   And then the Airline really does go away

00:27:52   or becomes like the iPad Air where like,

00:27:54   yeah, they continue to sell it

00:27:55   at an even more discounted price just because they can.

00:27:58   But then you'd have the MacBook,

00:28:00   you'd have the slightly bigger MacBook,

00:28:02   and then you'd have the MacBook Pro,

00:28:03   and you'd have the slightly bigger MacBook Pro,

00:28:04   and I think that would make a nice lineup.

00:28:06   - Yeah, I mean, but at that point,

00:28:07   if you're saying that,

00:28:09   So the difference between what is now the MacBook,

00:28:13   the MacBook One, and the MacBook Air line,

00:28:16   you know, the Air can be played twice as fast,

00:28:18   it can have way more ports and more kinds of ports,

00:28:23   and a bigger screen, and so if that considers itself

00:28:27   within the same family of these two

00:28:28   very different computers, why does the MacBook Pro

00:28:31   get a Pro designation, how is that any different?

00:28:34   - External GPU on the 13 inch?

00:28:36   - No, the 13 doesn't have it,

00:28:37   the 15 only has it optionally.

00:28:39   could have it. Well, barely. Only in the very high end and it's buggy and you get worse

00:28:44   battery life if you choose that option. That's everything. I feel like it could be distinguished.

00:28:48   The 13-inch Pro would be thicker, heavier, and that thickness and heaviness would give

00:28:54   it more battery to do more power sucking stuff, whether it's having a higher clock CPU or

00:29:00   more RAM or an external GPU on the high-end model or anything like that. Yeah, but you

00:29:04   could say the exact same thing about going from the 12 inch to the 13 inch. It's the

00:29:08   It's the same scale of difference between the current MacBook One and the rumored retina

00:29:13   MacBook Air as there would be between this retina MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro line.

00:29:17   Well, look, you've got three classes of CPU and you've only got two names, right?

00:29:21   Because I think the Air name is on its way out.

00:29:24   So you've got to divide it down the middle between MacBook and MacBook Pro.

00:29:27   So the middle CPU thing has got to go on one side or the other.

00:29:31   And I think it should go on the MacBook side.

00:29:32   If it goes on the Pro side, oh well.

00:29:34   But it seems more natural for it to go on the MacBook side.

00:29:37   Yeah, I think I agree. I think the MacBook Air name goes away, and I think that we are left with

00:29:44   MacBooks and MacBook Pros, and that's all that remains. Well, maybe, okay,

00:29:50   so maybe like older devices would retain the Air name, but I'm talking about the brand new devices.

00:29:56   Whatever is considered the most modern, I think it would either be MacBook or

00:30:00   MacBook Pro. Now, David Shaw was pointing out in the chat room that we actually have four classes.

00:30:05   You got the 45 watt in the 15 inch the 28 watt and the 13 inch and then you're down into the MacBook Air at

00:30:10   16 and MacBook at 5

00:30:12   So if you're gonna put the 16 and 5 or 15 and 5 down in the MacBook and the 45 and 28 in the Pro

00:30:17   That's an even split then but it really depends on what things Apple actually decides to use because

00:30:22   Just because CPU classes of CPUs are available doesn't mean that Apple necessarily use them in their products

00:30:29   I just think the air the whole air naming thing doesn't make sense anymore needs to be on its way out

00:30:35   But I think people keep using that name because it's the only way they have to refer to a machine

00:30:39   That's not a pro and it's not the skinny little MacBook

00:30:41   the way I wanted to start this off although because only one of us or 1.5 of us are looking at the notes was for the

00:30:48   27th Apple event

00:30:51   I think one place to start would be

00:30:53   What should Apple announce in order of priority like what's the most important thing for them to announce second most important third person or whatever?

00:31:00   and then after that we can say what we wish they would announce,

00:31:03   ignoring what's actually important for the company.

00:31:04   So, who wants to go first?

00:31:07   What should Apple announce at this October 27 event?

00:31:09   >> But there's no question.

00:31:11   It has to be new MacBook Pros,

00:31:13   because that is the workhorse of the lineup, as far as I'm concerned.

00:31:16   I agree with you that a lot of MacBook Airs get sold,

00:31:21   and maybe somebody has numbers, somebody outside Apple has numbers.

00:31:25   Maybe it's more MacBook Airs than MacBook Pros,

00:31:27   but, man, I think business runs,

00:31:29   A lot of businesses run on MacBook Pros.

00:31:31   I mean, there's two, I guess, but a lot of businesses run on MacBook Pros.

00:31:35   I see MacBook Pros everywhere.

00:31:37   I think they have to announce MacBook Pros.

00:31:40   I think that's non-negotiable.

00:31:41   Or an equivalent thereof, if for some reason they changed the name.

00:31:44   I think that's non-negotiable.

00:31:45   I agree.

00:31:46   That's number one.

00:31:47   I mean, it's obvious number one.

00:31:48   It's a thing I think if we had to put money, we would all bet on as the most likely thing.

00:31:52   They have to, because it is the most important Mac that they have is their laptop line, and

00:31:57   the MacBook Pros. They have been updated a long time. They're a really important computer.

00:32:03   If they care about Macs at all, they need to and almost certainly will announce new

00:32:07   MacBook Pros.

00:32:08   Well, if you look at what is most important for them to announce, if you go by like Tim

00:32:13   Cook Apple, it's probably the AirPods.

00:32:15   Well, we're talking about Macs at this point.

00:32:18   Oh, okay. Well, that's…

00:32:19   I guess based on the little advertisement, although we're not reading too much, it

00:32:22   says, "Hello again. That's a Mac reference. This event is going to be on Macs." Will

00:32:26   there be other things this event who knows who knows what other stuff that

00:32:28   amounts to the air pods are already a thing I feel like this is event is going

00:32:33   to be about max for the most part and you know unless you think there's some

00:32:36   other higher priority thing that they need to announce in October that they

00:32:40   haven't already announced I mean air pods are probably gonna make them more

00:32:44   money than the MacBook Pro will for a while I know but you can't buy me no but

00:32:50   you will be it like sure they'll announce a date or whatever but do you

00:32:52   - Do you think announcing the date for that

00:32:54   is more important than New Macs?

00:32:57   - I don't know, maybe to Tim.

00:32:59   I honestly don't think that Tim

00:33:01   gives much thought to the Mac.

00:33:03   It's not that he hates it or doesn't care about it,

00:33:05   I just don't think he gives it a lot of thought.

00:33:07   I really don't.

00:33:08   But anyway, personal CEO speculation aside,

00:33:12   yeah, it's probably the MacBook Pro, I think you're right.

00:33:15   I do think the MacBook Air is probably,

00:33:17   if I had to guess, the one that sells the most.

00:33:19   However, MacBook Air buyers tend to buy it because it is so cheap.

00:33:25   And so it's often like schools and people who are buying a ton of them and who need

00:33:29   them to be as affordable as possible because they're buying a ton and in the case of schools

00:33:33   they don't have massive budgets.

00:33:35   So it's probably, the MacBook Air while it is very important for it to exist and be sold

00:33:41   and in my opinion be good, I think it's less important that it be radically up to date.

00:33:47   The MacBook Pro, on the other hand,

00:33:48   sells to people who more often care about how fresh it is.

00:33:53   And MacBook Pro buyers would probably be more irked

00:33:58   than MacBook Air buyers at the prospect of buying

00:34:01   a two or three year old one brand new.

00:34:03   - Yeah, I think the crisis they're facing here,

00:34:05   with the whole hello again thing basically acknowledges that,

00:34:07   is they are acknowledging that the people

00:34:10   who do not buy the most volume,

00:34:13   because like you said, the most volume is the cheap ones,

00:34:14   right, but the people who buy cheap ones

00:34:16   are not like waiting for Apple events

00:34:18   and looking for announcements.

00:34:19   It's the enthusiast community

00:34:21   or like the more advanced pro users

00:34:23   who have even noticed that Apple has not up the hit

00:34:26   their Mac line in a really long time.

00:34:28   We're the only people who even notice.

00:34:30   So this is, it's an important,

00:34:32   there's no like lack of,

00:34:34   there's no faith gap among the people

00:34:37   who are buying MacBook Airs

00:34:38   'cause they don't know or care like how Apple updates.

00:34:41   The MacBook Air is already ancient.

00:34:42   They have non-retina screens.

00:34:43   You'd be told one of the people would be like,

00:34:44   non-retina what?

00:34:45   I don't know what you're talking about.

00:34:46   I like this laptop, right?

00:34:47   That's not what this is invented for.

00:34:49   That's why I think the highest priority,

00:34:50   the most important thing that they have to announce here

00:34:52   is the MacBook Pros.

00:34:54   Not because they're gonna sell more MacBook Pros

00:34:56   than MacBook Airs,

00:34:57   but because that's what this event is all about.

00:34:59   Announce the things that are like,

00:35:00   you have to move the head of the train ahead.

00:35:02   Like the tail end that's going,

00:35:04   like nobody cares about that.

00:35:06   So I think history has shown

00:35:09   you could not update the MacBook Airs for a really long time

00:35:11   and they still keep selling,

00:35:12   which we think is awful as enthusiasts

00:35:14   that Tim Cook probably likes.

00:35:15   So we're all in agreement, MacBook Pro is the most important

00:35:19   with corollary about AirPods making a lot of money for Tim.

00:35:22   - Yeah, I mean ultimately, here's what I would like.

00:35:26   See, I get why Tim Cook doesn't have to care that much

00:35:31   about things like the Mac Mini

00:35:32   and keeping the MacBook Air up to date.

00:35:34   I get why, but all of us are Apple fans

00:35:38   because Apple, for many product categories

00:35:42   for many times throughout its history,

00:35:45   has stood for being the best,

00:35:48   making things the best they can make them,

00:35:50   making what they consider to be the best products possible.

00:35:54   And if you look at the Mac Mini,

00:35:56   is that really the best product possible?

00:35:58   No, of course not.

00:35:59   Apple doesn't care about it.

00:36:00   If you look at the 21-inch iMac that still ships

00:36:04   with a 5,400 RPM hard drive standard,

00:36:07   is that the best product Apple can make?

00:36:09   No, of course not.

00:36:10   Basically, you can look at a lot of the Mac lineup,

00:36:13   and whether it's entry levels being way too low,

00:36:16   spec-wise, that that actually make for bad products

00:36:18   like hard drive equipped computers in 2016,

00:36:21   or if you look at Mac product lines

00:36:23   that just almost never get updated

00:36:25   and continue selling the oldest hardware forever,

00:36:28   like the Mac Pro and the Mac Mini,

00:36:31   I just wish Apple cared about these things as much as we do.

00:36:34   Because Apple as a brand, and I do believe

00:36:38   many of the people at both high and low levels of the company believe this and think this

00:36:43   way, Apple tries to make the best products they possibly can make in so many categories.

00:36:49   And for some reason they think it's okay to completely neglect, almost to an insulting

00:36:55   degree, some of their Mac product lines. And to me, like, that's not Apple-like. At least

00:37:01   that's not the way Apple thinks it is and presents itself and the way that we Apple

00:37:06   enthusiasts want them to be, even though actions speak louder than words, so right now that's

00:37:11   the kind of company Apple is. But I wish they weren't. I wish they were the kind of company

00:37:15   that they project themselves as and that we expect them to be. You know, everything you

00:37:19   sell, you should try to make it as good as you can make it. Because that's what, if you

00:37:24   had to pick one Apple value, like what are Apple's values, or what does Apple stand for?

00:37:30   It's that. It's that everything they make should be the best thing that they can make.

00:37:34   You can't say that about a Mac Pro

00:37:37   that hasn't been updated in three years,

00:37:38   or a Mac Mini that hasn't been updated

00:37:40   in probably about as long,

00:37:42   or these computers that skip generations

00:37:43   because Apple just doesn't care

00:37:45   about new hardware to put in them,

00:37:47   and they'll keep selling it only because it keeps selling,

00:37:50   like the 101 laptop or the,

00:37:52   keeping selling anything non-retina in 2016,

00:37:58   anything with a spinning hard drive in 2016,

00:38:03   These are not the best products they can be.

00:38:05   And margins might suffer a little bit,

00:38:08   and you might have to put in some engineering effort

00:38:10   sometimes into product lines that aren't that popular,

00:38:12   but if they're worth making at all,

00:38:15   make them the best they can be.

00:38:18   'Cause that's what Apple is supposed to actually stand for.

00:38:21   - I would add, just to qualify there,

00:38:23   because I can imagine people typing up

00:38:25   their tweet replies right now, is to listen.

00:38:28   It's the best they can be within their price point,

00:38:30   obviously, no one is saying that every single computer

00:38:32   has to have the very best components,

00:38:34   and every Mac has to have Xeon processors and ECC RAM.

00:38:37   It's within the price range.

00:38:38   And what we're saying is the Mac Pro is a great example,

00:38:41   even though it is the high-end machine.

00:38:43   Can Apple make and sell a Mac Pro at its current price point

00:38:48   with better hardware?

00:38:49   Unquestionably.

00:38:50   Same thing for the Mini.

00:38:52   It's not saying that the Mac Mini

00:38:53   has to have the top-end hardware.

00:38:55   It's the philosophy that Apple itself expresses

00:38:57   a lot of times, that when they do anything,

00:38:58   they wanna make it the best they can.

00:38:59   And they're in their own statements.

00:39:01   It's implied the best we can within the realm of this reason for this price point.

00:39:06   So when they make a keyboard and like, we spent a really long time working on his

00:39:08   key clicks, so Casey would be really happy and we wanted to make it, they're making

00:39:12   the best keyboard they can.

00:39:13   They're not making a keyboard that costs $3,000.

00:39:16   Like it's not, well, I bet you could make it better for 3000.

00:39:19   Yes.

00:39:19   They have a target price for like, what is a reasonable price for a keyboard for,

00:39:23   you know, like that's obvious, but it's within the price ranges when you don't.

00:39:27   Even the one-on-one, which is like fine.

00:39:29   If education wants like a Mac with an optical drive

00:39:32   and a non-retina screen that's really rugged or whatever,

00:39:35   if that's a product, fine, that's a product slot,

00:39:38   but you still have to say,

00:39:39   if people are gonna buy this computer year after year,

00:39:41   next year, we should have a ever so subtly better,

00:39:44   more rugged, more reliable, more efficient,

00:39:48   more pleasing Mac with an optical drive

00:39:51   and a non-retina screen for education.

00:39:53   Like just, you know, you don't have to update them constantly

00:39:55   but are you saying, you know,

00:39:57   We don't ever want to invest any more money

00:40:00   in this ever again,

00:40:00   but we will sell it year after year after year.

00:40:02   And that is on Apple like,

00:40:03   it's not the fact that they're not making that computer

00:40:07   have a five gigahertz processor

00:40:09   and an amazing retina P3 screen on it.

00:40:10   Like that's not what we're saying.

00:40:12   It's that if you're gonna sell it at all,

00:40:14   like, is this a computer you're proud to sell?

00:40:16   Like, are you proud to sell

00:40:17   that iMac with the 5,400 RPM drive?

00:40:19   Would you be proud to give this to somebody and say,

00:40:22   we're Apple and we're proud of all of our products.

00:40:24   Take this 21 inch iMac with the 5,400 RPM screen.

00:40:27   You'd be apologizing every five minutes.

00:40:28   Yeah, you know.

00:40:30   This is not what most Macs are like.

00:40:31   We're sorry.

00:40:32   Like if you feel like you have to apologize to someone,

00:40:33   like yes, I feel that as a tech person,

00:40:35   if someone buys like the wrong product

00:40:37   and you're kind of like,

00:40:38   this is not representative of what all these things are like.

00:40:40   You actually got the worst possible one

00:40:42   and it's really slow.

00:40:43   And I know it was also still a lot of money for you.

00:40:45   That's the other reason,

00:40:46   'cause Apple's products are a lot of money

00:40:47   relative to their competing products.

00:40:49   - Yes.

00:40:50   - There has to be a trade off for that.

00:40:52   You have to be able to say, you know,

00:40:53   it doesn't have to be as snappy as a Mac Pro,

00:40:55   but every year make you a little better.

00:40:57   - You know, there's been a lot of little references

00:40:59   here and there around our community about how

00:41:01   you don't really need to defend Apple as hard as you do.

00:41:04   Apple can defend themselves,

00:41:06   they're a huge company, et cetera, et cetera.

00:41:07   And one of the things I keep seeing

00:41:09   whenever I mention a 13-inch,

00:41:12   basically that I believe that it is both time

00:41:14   and that it is likely that we will see

00:41:15   a 13-inch Retina MacBook Air next week,

00:41:18   a lot of people say, "Oh, you can't do Retina in that size

00:41:20   "'cause it costs too much."

00:41:22   No, it doesn't.

00:41:22   Look around at the entire rest of the computing industry.

00:41:24   - Yeah, that's ridiculous.

00:41:26   - Look at the iPad!

00:41:26   - It probably costs more to get those non-retina screens

00:41:29   at this point.

00:41:30   (laughing)

00:41:30   - Yeah, at some point they're gonna stop making

00:41:32   the non-retina screens and Apple won't be able

00:41:35   to buy them anymore.

00:41:36   Like, look around the industry,

00:41:38   hardware is shockingly cheap.

00:41:41   Like, it is ridiculously cheap.

00:41:44   Look around and a lot of stuff has similar

00:41:46   or nicer screens for less money.

00:41:48   Like, it can be done.

00:41:50   It can totally be done.

00:41:52   It is 2016, it is almost 2017.

00:41:54   You can have a Retina MacBook Air size screen at $1,000

00:41:59   and still have a profit margin healthy enough for Apple.

00:42:03   Like that is totally possible.

00:42:04   Harder to achieve these days.

00:42:06   If you wanted to put a 256 gig SSD as the base model storage

00:42:11   in every single Mac that is sold, you could totally do it

00:42:15   and the effects on margins would probably not be

00:42:17   very substantial at all.

00:42:18   It might not even be noticeable.

00:42:20   Like it is totally possible to go all Retina,

00:42:24   SSD today in the Mac lineup.

00:42:28   It's only up to Apple when they do that.

00:42:30   And as soon as they can go, all Retina and all SSD,

00:42:34   their computers will be, across the board,

00:42:37   a solid recommendation.

00:42:39   It'll be so much better.

00:42:41   And they're not there yet because they just keep

00:42:44   preserving the Tim Cook wave,

00:42:46   just keep selling everything forever.

00:42:48   And no matter how old or ancient or crappy it is,

00:42:51   if someone's still buying it, we'll keep selling it

00:42:53   at whatever low price we can get.

00:42:55   Like no, that's not Apple.

00:42:57   That is not what Apple has ever stood for.

00:43:00   That is not what most Apple people

00:43:02   like to think Apple stands for.

00:43:04   And that is not what Apple's customers

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00:44:45   So the obvious follow-up to this "what should Apple announce in order of priority?" We all

00:44:52   agreed on the number one, talked to the MacBook Pros, talked about the larger issues. Harder

00:44:56   question. What is the second highest priority thing that they should announce at this event?

00:45:00   Apple Pencil 2. Oh my goodness. Now with an eraser. Seriously. I think we all answered

00:45:08   that, and I think it's the MacBook Air or, if Jon and I are right, the 13-inch MacBook.

00:45:14   Whatever fills that slot, I think is the second most important.

00:45:17   - Yeah, I mean, and you can look at other things

00:45:19   that are very likely.

00:45:20   I think the iMac is very likely to get an update.

00:45:24   I think Kaby Lake is ready for that class of CPU, isn't it?

00:45:28   - But do you think that's important?

00:45:29   - No, it's-- - I mostly agree

00:45:31   that it's something in that range of products,

00:45:34   whether it ends up being a MacBook or a MacBook Pro

00:45:36   with 13 inches is the second most important.

00:45:38   What is the third most important?

00:45:39   Is the iMac the third most important?

00:45:40   'Cause I feel like of all the line of computer,

00:45:43   The 5K iMac is the one that I have the least problem

00:45:45   recommending in terms of Macs at this point.

00:45:47   - Yeah, well, 'cause the 5K iMac uses a class of CPUs

00:45:51   that is very regularly updated by Intel.

00:45:53   It's almost always the first one to get certain things.

00:45:55   It's like this big high power one.

00:45:58   I guess they're probably easier to make.

00:46:00   And so it was the first one with Skylake last winter.

00:46:03   And now, 'cause it has Skylake now, right?

00:46:06   And then I believe the Kaby Lake version

00:46:08   is basically ready now,

00:46:10   'cause it gets updated about every fall.

00:46:12   So the iMac will probably get an update to the Kaby Lake,

00:46:16   I believe Kaby Lake is a fairly minor update.

00:46:18   - Yeah, I don't think it's crying out for a Kaby Lake upgrade

00:46:21   do you think like, is that of all the problems

00:46:23   that are with the current 5K iMacs,

00:46:25   you're saying I wish it had a slightly faster CPU?

00:46:28   Like that's not high on my list.

00:46:30   - Well, but the iMac is, like it's,

00:46:31   the iMac is already plenty fast.

00:46:33   What I'm guessing it's going to get,

00:46:34   it already has the wide gamut color from last year.

00:46:37   So the screen is already like top notch.

00:46:40   I'm guessing it has to convert to USB-C

00:46:43   and have Thunderbolt 3.

00:46:44   So that's like the obvious thing.

00:46:47   If Apple ever gets around to making everything

00:46:51   in Retina and SSD, the next big transition

00:46:53   is moving everything over to USB-C and Thunderbolt 3,

00:46:56   or everything that can do that,

00:46:57   which should be most of their computers,

00:46:58   just not all of them.

00:46:59   So I would imagine the iMac gets an update

00:47:03   that is a moderate CPU increase,

00:47:06   GPUs potentially better, who knows?

00:47:09   - Yeah, that's the only rumor about the iMac,

00:47:10   is everyone was saying new iMacs with better GPUs,

00:47:12   and if I had to pick one thing that needed to be upgraded,

00:47:14   I don't, honestly, at this point,

00:47:16   I would pick faster GPU over USB-C for the iMac,

00:47:19   but that's just me.

00:47:20   - Well, USB-C has another interesting thing,

00:47:22   which is that there's also this rumor

00:47:23   about the 5K external display,

00:47:25   and if the information that we have on that is right

00:47:27   from ATP Tipster, and which I believe the rumor sites

00:47:30   have all corroborated at this point,

00:47:31   although he was telling this like six months ago,

00:47:33   but if the information's right,

00:47:36   the 5K monitor is very likely to ship this time.

00:47:39   is based on Thunderbolt 3 over a USB-C plug,

00:47:43   and that it will only be compatible with Macs

00:47:46   that have USB-C with Thunderbolt 3 on them,

00:47:49   which is currently none of them,

00:47:51   and will presumably be everything announced next week.

00:47:54   So presumably it'll be the new MacBook Pros,

00:47:56   if the MacBook Air is new, that thing too,

00:47:59   and the new iMac.

00:48:00   So all those things should, in theory,

00:48:02   be able to drive this new display,

00:48:05   and probably no other Macs, including the current Mac Pro,

00:48:08   which will be slightly embarrassing, but nobody buys the Mac Pro anyway.

00:48:11   So I'm kind of torn on the third priority after the MacBook Pros and the MacBook,

00:48:18   because I really don't feel like the 5K iMac needs it other than, like you said,

00:48:22   being able to drive the monitor, in theory, they're announcing. And by the way, maybe you

00:48:25   could list that monitor as the third item. But it's kind of like a tie for me between the iMac

00:48:30   and the Mac Pro, even though nobody buys the Mac Pro. In terms of priority order, what they

00:48:34   should announce to have a positive,

00:48:37   to make up for the areas where they have problems,

00:48:39   the areas where their problems are the max

00:48:41   that they have not updated the longest.

00:48:42   And should is very different than will.

00:48:44   I thought these were guesses.

00:48:46   - We're still on the should.

00:48:47   It's what should they announce in order of priority.

00:48:50   And I would be totally safe saying that, you know,

00:48:53   MacBook Pros, that is the highest priority.

00:48:56   MacBook, second highest priority.

00:48:57   And then Mac Pro and iMac are kind of a tie

00:48:59   because the Mac Pro is like, really that is,

00:49:02   If they care about Pro at all,

00:49:05   like they, I mean, obviously they can't do this.

00:49:06   If they're doing Skylake-y, they just can't, right?

00:49:08   We know, that's why none of us expect the Mac Pro.

00:49:10   We'll get to what they think they're gonna do next.

00:49:11   But if they had made wiser choices

00:49:15   and had a MacBook, had a Mac Pro ready to go

00:49:18   with a pre-Skylake but post whatever the hell Haswell-y thing

00:49:22   they're using in the old ones,

00:49:23   is that what the old ones use?

00:49:24   I don't remember anymore.

00:49:25   - The old Mac Pro is Ivy Bridge,

00:49:26   and then, and they missed Haswell and Broadwell.

00:49:30   - Yeah, okay.

00:49:31   Anyway, that's what they should do.

00:49:33   They're not going to, but I feel like that would be a tie for them.

00:49:36   None of us think that the Mac Mini, because the Mac Mini is not symbolic of any segment

00:49:39   that we think is important.

00:49:41   It's like, there's the pro segment and then there's the stuff that everybody else buys,

00:49:45   and then the Mac Mini is like, not pro, not everybody else, weird little thing.

00:49:51   And honestly, it is a shame they don't update it, but I think it is at the bottom of their

00:49:55   priorities in terms of what they should announce to reassure any community of purchasers or

00:50:01   or to make up for past sins or whatever

00:50:03   because the Mac Mini has been on this pay no mind list

00:50:06   for its entire life basically

00:50:08   and it should just be used to it.

00:50:10   - No, I mean like if we're going for

00:50:12   what should they announce to convince people

00:50:15   who are paying attention that they,

00:50:16   that their head's in the right place,

00:50:17   a Mac Pro is definitely number three

00:50:20   if not even number two.

00:50:22   But if we, in terms of what they will actually announce,

00:50:26   I don't think we have a chance of it

00:50:27   because as you mentioned a few minutes ago,

00:50:31   basically the Mac Pro is currently

00:50:33   kind of between two generations.

00:50:35   Like if Apple is going to release a Mac Pro

00:50:37   with a certain family of Intel Xeon CPUs,

00:50:40   usually they do it very promptly

00:50:42   with that family's release to the public.

00:50:44   And the last Xeon CPUs were released back in June.

00:50:47   That was the Broadwell E line.

00:50:49   So I doubt, like if they were going to ship Mac Pros

00:50:52   that used Broadwell,

00:50:53   they probably would have already done that.

00:50:55   - Yeah, they should have, but they didn't.

00:50:57   - Right.

00:50:58   And the Skylake-E Xeons,

00:51:00   and these names all lag behind the consumer chips.

00:51:03   There's good reasons for that,

00:51:04   but basically Skylake is coming to the Xeon family,

00:51:07   allegedly in the first half of 2017.

00:51:10   So my guess is that we get a Skylake Mac Pro,

00:51:14   if it is going to exist,

00:51:15   we get that probably at WBC of next year,

00:51:18   which will be awesome if it exists,

00:51:19   because Skylake on the Mac Pro

00:51:21   is actually a really big upgrade,

00:51:24   like the Skylake Xeon chipset,

00:51:27   Intel's code name Pearly chipset has a bunch

00:51:29   of big improvements, like higher throughputs on things,

00:51:32   more PCI Express, better memory, all sorts of improvements

00:51:36   that will be bigger than the average Xeon upgrade.

00:51:38   So if we're waiting for that, like okay,

00:51:42   it'd be nice if they had one now,

00:51:43   but that's gonna be an awesome Mac Pro

00:51:45   when it eventually comes out.

00:51:47   - You know, it's weird because I can't believe

00:51:50   I'm going to say this, but I think that updating

00:51:53   the Mac Pro is considerably more important

00:51:56   than updating the iMac.

00:51:58   The iMac isn't that old.

00:52:00   And I concur that it's not likely to happen.

00:52:04   And God, I hope it doesn't happen

00:52:05   because a new tool will go on for 17 episodes.

00:52:08   But I do think it is important for it to happen.

00:52:13   It's just, unfortunately the timing is all off,

00:52:16   but it should happen for sure.

00:52:18   - Well, you have to balance,

00:52:19   like the reason I'm doing this prior to this

00:52:20   is you have to balance not just like,

00:52:21   oh, what is the most lagging?

00:52:23   But it's like, there's a balance between the volume

00:52:26   these that you sell, how important is this to the entire product line and how far behind

00:52:30   is it? That's why I think the MacBook Pros and MacBooks needs to come first because their

00:52:33   volume is just so much more than the Mac Pro. But at a certain point, even at the infinitesimal

00:52:37   volumes of the Mac Pro cells, it becomes symbolic. And that's why I feel like it's kind of in

00:52:42   the number three slot tied with the iMac, which the iMac sells way more than the Mac

00:52:46   Pro. And, you know, it's like, it's, in other words, I don't want to say, oh, you've updated

00:52:52   the iMac recently, you can give that one a year and a half vacation. Like no, don't,

00:52:56   keep doing what, you know, the rate of progress on the iMac has been good. It's been, "Hey,

00:53:02   5K iMac," and then very shortly after, "Hey, 5K iMac with a better screen," and it should

00:53:06   be very shortly after that, "Hey, 5K iMac with USB-C that can drive this new monitor,"

00:53:10   like, you know, keep doing that. That's what you're supposed to do. It's the one Mac you're

00:53:12   doing the right thing with, so I almost don't want to say, "Oh, you don't have to update

00:53:15   it, though, and that's not important," but it is in the number three slot, maybe tied

00:53:18   with the Mac Pro. This is like top four, where you can just pick like all the pinks for the

00:53:21   the number three slot.

00:53:23   - I think, so how important do you guys think

00:53:26   the external 5K display is?

00:53:28   'Cause I think it's probably a very boring product,

00:53:31   but I think it's actually a really big deal to power users

00:53:33   because a lot of power users use MacBook Pros

00:53:37   or MacBook Airs as their primary or only computer,

00:53:40   and they use them at a desk or moving around,

00:53:43   and so many people I know use MacBook Pros

00:53:47   with external monitors, and you can get Retina so far

00:53:50   with like various Dells and stuff,

00:53:52   but it tends to be buggy and limited and generally crappy.

00:53:56   So this, you know, I would imagine,

00:53:58   Casey, you're probably like first in line for this, right?

00:54:01   - Well, yes and no.

00:54:02   So I have very strong feelings about this.

00:54:05   I have two Lenovo monitors at work.

00:54:10   They're probably 22 or 24 inches.

00:54:13   They're completely unremarkable in every way.

00:54:15   They, I think might be 1080, maybe.

00:54:20   Again, they're so unremarkable I don't even recall what resolution they are.

00:54:23   I use the two of them side by side on a standing desk.

00:54:26   I leave my MacBook Pro clamshelled when I'm at work.

00:54:30   This generally speaking is actually fairly nice to have two reasonably large external

00:54:34   monitors that are pretty much identical.

00:54:37   However, this becomes a frickin' nightmare when I'm doing UI work in the simulator because

00:54:42   these screens are not retina, which means when I shrink the simulator so that it actually

00:54:48   fits on my screen, which means I'm shrinking it to, you know, like 50% at the least, oftentimes

00:54:54   I'll drop things that are on the UI. Perfect example. I constantly drop the dividing line

00:55:01   between table view cells. Constantly. And so I think that there's something wrong with my UI.

00:55:06   Oh no, it's just these piece of garbage monitors I'm viewing this on. I understand that I could

00:55:12   not clamshell my MacBook Pro. I could set that up and I could do the simulator on there. I

00:55:17   I understand that, but I don't want to call me bananas,

00:55:21   whatever you want to do.

00:55:22   It's just not what I want to do.

00:55:23   - You're bananas. - I want to use

00:55:24   these external monitors.

00:55:24   Thanks, man.

00:55:25   I want to use these external monitors.

00:55:28   So because of this, I've been going back and forth

00:55:30   with our head IT guy, trying to figure out,

00:55:33   okay, I really want something that's retina,

00:55:36   and I don't think that's too much to ask.

00:55:37   Here's why, and I think I got him on board for that.

00:55:40   So what can we do?

00:55:41   And he said, well, you know, generally speaking,

00:55:43   I'd want to get you a cinema display

00:55:45   or a Thunderbolt display.

00:55:46   And I go, no, no, no, no, I don't want that.

00:55:47   I don't want that, I don't want that.

00:55:48   He said, "You're right, you don't want that."

00:55:49   Yeah, you don't, and he said, you know, you don't want that.

00:55:52   And he knew they had been discontinued, et cetera.

00:55:54   But even then, even if they weren't discontinued, they're not retinas, so it doesn't help me.

00:55:58   So I had told him, after having surveyed Twitter like 16 different times, I told him I would

00:56:03   like a particular Dell 4K monitor.

00:56:07   And we'll put a link in the show notes because I don't recall the exact model name offhand.

00:56:11   And it's like a 22 or 24 inch 4K monitor.

00:56:13   They also have a 27-inch 5K monitor, which is effectively an iMac, but it also has the

00:56:18   price tag of an iMac, because I think the 5K one is like $1,500.

00:56:21   So the 4K one is about $400, give or take a little bit, on Amazon.

00:56:27   And Solomon in the chat said P2415Q, and I'm pretty darn sure that's right.

00:56:34   So anyway, it'll be in the show notes.

00:56:35   So we ordered one, and it came in, and I took my two Lenovo monitors off my desk.

00:56:40   I put my fancy shiny new Dell on my desk.

00:56:43   You told the story last week.

00:56:44   Did I?

00:56:45   Okay.

00:56:46   I couldn't recall if I had or not.

00:56:47   And it was DOA.

00:56:48   So we have a 27-inch LG 4K monitor that I really like.

00:56:57   But it's the wrong size.

00:56:58   So on the way, but not here yet, is a 24-inch equivalent LG monitor.

00:57:05   And I've been going back and forth with our IT guy for like two months trying to figure

00:57:09   out what monitor to buy, what price point we can hit, etc., etc., etc.

00:57:12   I don't necessarily know that this Phantom new Retina 5K external display,

00:57:17   I sincerely doubt that it will be at a price point that my company will be willing to pay.

00:57:23   You can't drive it from your Mac anyway, so what are you--

00:57:25   And I wouldn't be able to drive it from my Mac anyways, you're absolutely right.

00:57:28   But let's leave that aside just for a moment.

00:57:30   I'm assuming it'll still be $1,000, just like the Thunderbolt display was before it got retired.

00:57:36   Maybe higher.

00:57:37   If not-- yeah, to your point, if not more.

00:57:38   I mean a thousand dollars for an Apple 5k display today would actually be a really competitive deal sure

00:57:44   But it but it's way more than well if you're starting from the position of probably a 200 or 250 dollar Lenovo monitor

00:57:51   It's already a big deal for me to be asking for a 350 dollar dollar LG monitor

00:57:57   And now we're talking about a thousand or fifteen hundred dollar Apple monitor on the one side

00:58:02   It would be an easy sell because it's first party on the other side. There's no freaking way

00:58:06   they're gonna spend that kind of money on me.

00:58:07   So you're right, Marco, that I would be first in line

00:58:10   for it in the sense that I would want it more than anything

00:58:13   in the world, but I don't think my company would pay for it.

00:58:16   I don't think I would wanna pay for it for a work computer,

00:58:19   and either way, I think this is all kind of moot

00:58:21   because John is exactly right.

00:58:22   It's unlikely that my existing, effectively brand new,

00:58:26   MacBook Pro would be able to drive it anyway.

00:58:28   So in summary, Casey is sad.

00:58:30   - So I mean, this is obviously, like, you know,

00:58:33   in a perfect world, you would get a brand new computer

00:58:36   in a few months or whatever that has all this stuff.

00:58:38   Obviously that's probably not gonna happen.

00:58:41   Second option here, 'cause if you need any ammo,

00:58:45   it sounds like you don't, but if you need any ammo with ID,

00:58:48   you can tell them that Marco Arment,

00:58:50   noted Apple authority on whatever,

00:58:53   says that seriously, if you are doing iOS development

00:58:58   on a Mac, it must be retina, period.

00:59:01   you have to, because the exact reason you mentioned,

00:59:04   every iOS device that runs iOS 10 is Retina.

00:59:07   So if you're doing iOS development,

00:59:10   you are running your software on Retina devices,

00:59:13   and the simulator does not run correctly

00:59:16   in an accurate way on non-Retina screens,

00:59:19   unless you blow it up and then it looks,

00:59:21   but even then it's wrong for different reasons.

00:59:24   To responsibly develop for iOS,

00:59:26   if you have any budget at all,

00:59:29   And if you're working for an employer,

00:59:31   what you cost them every month is way more

00:59:33   than like computer equipment.

00:59:35   So, you know, it's understandable if you're like

00:59:37   a hobbyist and you only have an old Mac,

00:59:38   fine, that's one thing.

00:59:39   But if you're like working in an office

00:59:41   for like a professional company in the United States

00:59:43   that makes iOS, and your job is to make iOS software,

00:59:47   you need to be using a retina screen,

00:59:49   and preferably the largest one that you can possibly find.

00:59:52   Because that is just the practical reality

00:59:55   of developing iOS applications.

00:59:58   and that is what they need, it's simple as that.

01:00:01   So you might wanna consider,

01:00:03   although this is probably not going to happen,

01:00:05   and you're probably gonna tell me immediately no,

01:00:08   in the meantime, if you can't get them to spring

01:00:09   for a brand new computer and a brand new 5K monitor

01:00:12   next year or next month or next week,

01:00:15   what about switching to a 5K iMac at work?

01:00:17   Is that an option?

01:00:19   - Eh.

01:00:20   - That costs a lot more than a $350

01:00:23   or whatever monitor that was, LG monitor.

01:00:25   Yeah, the LG monitor is under $350 and even two of them is cheaper than one iMac.

01:00:33   And it's funny because from time to time I'll work from home and as long as I'm hitting

01:00:38   our production servers, I'm not doing any work that requires our QA or development servers,

01:00:45   I don't need to be on our VPN.

01:00:46   And I will do work from home on my iMac and it is amazing.

01:00:52   It is so much nicer than doing work at work.

01:00:56   See, that's a problem.

01:00:58   Well, right, you know, it is. It really is.

01:01:00   And in that sense, you're absolutely right.

01:01:02   But for better or worse, right, wrong, or indifferent,

01:01:05   I prefer to have a laptop so that if I want to work from home

01:01:09   and I need to get on the VPN, or I need to have something that,

01:01:13   for some crazy reason, is only on my work laptop,

01:01:16   I'd prefer to have a laptop.

01:01:18   which means I think my future setup will be either one or two of these LG monitors.

01:01:24   And I think, all told, I'm going to be really happy with it.

01:01:27   The initial reply from my IT guy was, "Well, throw away one of your Lenovo monitors

01:01:33   and use your laptop and shut up," which, truth be told, is not an unreasonable answer.

01:01:37   Yeah, that is also an option.

01:01:39   Yeah, but I like having the two identical screens, and so that's why I'm avoiding that.

01:01:45   that. I think in the future I will probably end up doing one of these 4Ks and then bite

01:01:51   the bullet and unclam shell my MacBook Pro. Or in a more perfect world, two of the 4K

01:01:58   displays and in the most perfect of perfect worlds, somehow the company falls upon even

01:02:03   more money and they get me one of these Phantom new displays with one of the Phantom new Macs.

01:02:07   But given that my Mac is on a two-year lease and I've only been there like seven or eight

01:02:10   months, that's probably not going to happen.

01:02:12   - What about two MacBook Pros side by side?

01:02:15   - Yeah, why not, right?

01:02:16   - Then you have your two side by side monitors

01:02:18   that are the exact same size, they're both Retina,

01:02:19   and your company seems to be totally okay

01:02:21   by a MacBook Pros.

01:02:22   - Yeah, if only we're that easy,

01:02:23   well, leasing MacBook Pros, and if only that one--

01:02:25   - Excuse me. - It were that easy.

01:02:27   I don't know, I mean, I hear you,

01:02:28   and so in that sense, this is a very long way to say,

01:02:31   heck yeah, I'd love to have one of these phantom,

01:02:34   you know, USB-C, 5K displays,

01:02:37   but I don't foresee one being in my future

01:02:40   unless I fund it, and even then,

01:02:42   It won't be for two years because my Mac, my work Mac won't support it.

01:02:46   Kind of like the Mac Mini, Apple has conditioned us all over many years, not just a Thunderbolt

01:02:52   display, not to expect Apple to update its monitors in any reasonable timeframe.

01:02:57   So that's why I think, despite the fact that I really want a 5K display to connect to a

01:03:02   hypothetical Mac Pro in the future, it's below all other items in terms of what they should

01:03:07   do because the Apple's history with monitors is just abysmal like they'll

01:03:11   introduce an amazing monitor and just let it sit there for years and then

01:03:16   introduce another amazing monitor and let it sit there for years and then

01:03:19   apparently now discontinue it and then I fully expect if they continue to make

01:03:23   monitors at all they will eventually announce another amazing monitor and

01:03:26   then let it sit there for years so the trick is buy it around the time they

01:03:30   announce it when it's still amazing don't buy it at the end of its umpteen

01:03:34   year life cycle. So I'm trying not to get my hopes up about it being announced, so I

01:03:39   won't be disappointed if it's not announced. But either way, I don't think it's in their

01:03:43   priority list. It doesn't come before any of the things that we've discussed so far

01:03:46   in terms of that they have to do this to either because they're going to sell a lot of them,

01:03:49   which they're not, it's a thousand dollar monitor, or that they need to reassure people,

01:03:52   which they don't, because like the Mac Mini, we're all just used to the fact that monitors

01:03:55   are not a thing that Apple updates.

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01:07:54   [Music]

01:07:55   All right, Jon, you were the one who had kind of a flow to how we would discuss this.

01:08:01   What comes next?

01:08:03   Well, the other angle on this is things that we wish they would announce, but I think we've

01:08:08   mostly covered that with the things that we would want versus the things that are actually

01:08:13   important for Apple to announce.

01:08:15   So we already talked about the Mac Pros and the monitor and all sorts of other stuff like

01:08:18   that.

01:08:19   Do we do, do any of us think there is a reasonable chance of a wildcard that is not related to

01:08:25   Macs or AirPods or anything that like is expected or rumored?

01:08:30   You know, I hear that there's a hub that's coming, one of these days.

01:08:33   The hub wildcard.

01:08:34   I don't know.

01:08:35   I don't think so.

01:08:36   All snark aside, there's nothing I can think of.

01:08:38   The wildcard could be something about the Macs that we're not talking about.

01:08:41   Like we haven't mentioned like, you know, Touch ID and all that.

01:08:44   That doesn't count.

01:08:45   We've all seen the rumors.

01:08:46   Like something that has not even been rumored.

01:08:48   USB 3 to Ethernet.

01:08:52   They don't have that.

01:08:53   They only have USB 2 or Thunderbolt.

01:08:54   That's true.

01:08:55   That's true.

01:08:56   Except they're studying hubs and dongles.

01:08:57   I mean, I guess that counts as a wild card.

01:09:00   Yes.

01:09:01   But, yeah.

01:09:02   Like is that, I don't know if that, it's true that we haven't been talking about that, mostly

01:09:06   because it's not that interesting because there's a million third party things that

01:09:09   you can plug into your Macs and they will continue to me.

01:09:11   But maybe that counts, I don't know.

01:09:13   - So here's a question.

01:09:14   I mean, more on the MacBook Pros,

01:09:16   'cause there are still a few big things

01:09:18   we don't know about them

01:09:19   that a lot of people keep asking about.

01:09:20   Do you think they will have lightning ports for headphones?

01:09:25   My guess is no, because I think lightning ports

01:09:28   are gonna stay iOS device only

01:09:29   for plenty of various platform chip reasons

01:09:32   and all likelihood, but--

01:09:33   - Well, they have touch ID in there, though.

01:09:35   - Hold on, hold on, hold on.

01:09:36   Before we answer, okay, let's assume they do not

01:09:40   have lightning ports for headphones, Marco.

01:09:43   Would you say then that they have a headphone jack at all,

01:09:46   or is it screw you, it's Bluetooth or nothing?

01:09:49   - I suspect they will still have a headphone jack

01:09:52   or a lightning port.

01:09:53   And honestly, I think the more likely answer

01:09:55   is they're still just gonna have a headphone port.

01:09:57   But I think they're gonna have one or the other.

01:10:00   They're not gonna have nothing.

01:10:01   - Yeah, I think they will still have

01:10:03   a plain old headphone port.

01:10:04   Mostly though because I would imagine slash hope that these Macs

01:10:09   Hardware was designed

01:10:12   longer ago than we would like to think

01:10:14   The the Intel delays with this guy like and everything like that that

01:10:18   You know, I think this a lot of head for us now

01:10:22   Second question is what do you think they should have would you like a MacBook of any kind?

01:10:30   That did not have a plain old headphone jack, but instead had either a lightning jack or nothing

01:10:35   Is that something that would be attractive to you in any way or you just see his damage basically?

01:10:38   I mean, I'm always on Bluetooth

01:10:40   I shouldn't say always there from time to time if I have forgotten to charge my headphones in forever, which

01:10:47   Occasionally happens but is very very rare. I would plug in

01:10:51   my old earbuds or in

01:10:55   potentially my lightning earbuds to the Mac.

01:10:57   But for me, it would not bother me

01:11:00   if there was no audio jack of any kind

01:11:04   and it was Bluetooth or nothing.

01:11:06   - To me, if I'm using my MacBook

01:11:09   for some kind of audio output,

01:11:12   one of the things I would do most often there

01:11:14   is podcast editing while traveling.

01:11:16   And so I can't take any latency,

01:11:19   or and podcast recording would also be a big thing.

01:11:21   So I mean, although that wouldn't use

01:11:22   a built-in headphone jack anyway.

01:11:24   Basically latency is a big deal killer for me on that,

01:11:27   so Bluetooth would be a very hard sell.

01:11:30   So if there's any kind of,

01:11:31   if we're using headphones on a Mac laptop,

01:11:34   most of the time I'm going to want them to be wired.

01:11:36   And so if they're going to be wired anyway,

01:11:39   they might as well either be the same lightning headphones

01:11:41   that I can presumably use with my iPhone,

01:11:43   if I ever make that switch,

01:11:45   but I probably will eventually,

01:11:47   or a regular headphone jack.

01:11:49   - I think I'm pretty much on board with the idea of,

01:11:52   in the future, replacing the headphone jack

01:11:54   with the lighting jack on Macs.

01:11:55   I'm not necessarily saying Apple's gonna do it,

01:11:57   but I would be mostly okay with that.

01:11:59   I just think that it should lag behind the conversion

01:12:03   in the iOS ecosystem, 'cause we just have the iPhone 7,

01:12:06   which is the first device to do this.

01:12:08   Give it a few years, see if the headphone situation

01:12:10   shakes itself out, if it doesn't, it looks like it's safe,

01:12:12   and you have lots and lots of people

01:12:15   with lightning headphones or with those little $9 adapters

01:12:17   or whatever, it's like then, okay, all clear,

01:12:19   you can replace the headphone jack on the Macs.

01:12:21   And the only reason you'd be replacing it

01:12:23   basically uniformity and you know I mean it's not like you're trying to shave those little pieces

01:12:29   little bits of uh size out of the inside of your macbooks it's not as constrained as it is on a

01:12:33   phone um but the uniformity would be nice and I think once they start adding touch id and stuff

01:12:39   to max you start incorporating chips and other technologies from ios devices into max for that

01:12:45   purpose it's not too far to go from there to lightning and I think you can do potentially

01:12:50   interesting things with the Lightning port. I know it's weird, dude, like you've got USB-C

01:12:54   right next to Lightning and they're similar sizes and we talked about this way back in

01:12:56   the day about like, "Oh, won't it be confusing to have two and they'll put them in the wrong

01:12:59   slots and stuff?" I feel like these are some mountable problems, but in the short term,

01:13:04   I would prefer if the Maxley announce on the 27th have a plain old headphone jack, and

01:13:10   I would not like a Maxley that has neither of those things in it.

01:13:13   Yeah, I mean, I don't think it would bother me, but the only time it would really bother

01:13:18   me that occurred to me when you were talking is I don't have noise canceling or noise isolating

01:13:22   headphones that are Bluetooth. So on a plane when I want to listen to my ultimate ears

01:13:29   that are in-ears that are noise isolating, there are traditional wired headphones or

01:13:34   earbuds, whatever. And that would really annoy me because typically I'll use either my iPad

01:13:40   or my Mac on a long flight. And so that would really bum me out unless I could do the lightning

01:13:44   to traditional headphone dance. I don't know.

01:13:47   - Well, and you know, Apple's response to that kind of thing,

01:13:50   usually, like, if they move to a new thing,

01:13:55   or the deletion of an old technology, like a port,

01:13:58   if it results in people having to just buy new X,

01:14:03   in this case, you know, buy new headphones,

01:14:04   and this problem goes away,

01:14:06   if it can be solved that way, Apple doesn't care.

01:14:08   They'll just say, "Okay, well fine, buy new headphones.

01:14:09   "You will eventually buy new headphones,

01:14:11   "so when that happens, you'll be okay,

01:14:13   "or maybe we'll motivate you to buy them

01:14:14   "sooner rather than later."

01:14:15   Apple does not care if that is the answer.

01:14:17   It's arguable whether they should care because that's,

01:14:20   you know, you're throwing more cost onto people

01:14:22   if they wanna make this move, you know,

01:14:23   so that does add up and that money matters

01:14:25   to most people who are buying it.

01:14:27   But Apple doesn't care.

01:14:29   But the problem comes when there is nothing better

01:14:32   to move to or if the things that they're telling you,

01:14:36   well, this problem goes away, if you just switch to X

01:14:38   or you just stop needing Y, you know,

01:14:41   sometimes the result of what you use instead,

01:14:44   they just don't have a good answer for that

01:14:45   or the answer is it has a lot of other downsides

01:14:49   that the old Wii didn't have.

01:14:52   - So I've got an idea for a wild card

01:14:54   that as far as I know hasn't been remembered,

01:14:56   although I haven't been paying that much attention to it.

01:14:58   And this is a special feature just for Casey.

01:15:00   How about a waterproof laptop?

01:15:02   (laughing)

01:15:03   - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:15:04   Ha ha ha.

01:15:05   - No, no, ha ha.

01:15:06   Like I think it's, like as we, you know,

01:15:10   we've got the phone that is waterproof basically,

01:15:13   and I think this is a feature

01:15:14   should be rolled out across the entire product line.

01:15:20   It's no reason to not put it on iPads and everything else because it's kind of weird

01:15:23   to have this very expensive device that becomes important to your life that you bring around

01:15:27   with you that if you get a little splash of water on it potentially in the wrong spot,

01:15:32   it's dead.

01:15:33   And it's dead in a really bad way in that there's special provisions in the various

01:15:36   warranties that Apple does.

01:15:37   It's treated differently.

01:15:40   I don't like that.

01:15:41   I like feeling a little bit more confident.

01:15:43   laptops, you know, people spill things in them all the time. Now, can you make it as waterproof as

01:15:48   a phone? Probably not because of the keyboard and all that other stuff or whatever, but how about

01:15:51   a more water-resistant version of a laptop? Lots of, you know, PC makers make laptops that are

01:15:58   better about dealing with water than any of Apple's. I think Apple can improve in this area,

01:16:04   and that would be an interesting place to go. I think it's an attractive feature for people. I

01:16:09   think lots of people have spilled liquid into their laptops, and you don't have to sell it as

01:16:13   "Hey, you can use your laptop underwater in the pool."

01:16:16   Just maybe be more resilient to splashes.

01:16:18   That's all I'm saying.

01:16:19   I feel like they could do that,

01:16:21   and it would be a benefit, and everybody would see it,

01:16:23   and if they rolled that across their entire product line,

01:16:24   eventually we would take it for granted,

01:16:26   and wouldn't be able to go back to the days

01:16:27   where the tiniest splash could fry your whole computer.

01:16:30   - Oh, if only.

01:16:31   - That's a tough challenge, I think,

01:16:34   because if you think about the physical attributes

01:16:37   and needs of a laptop,

01:16:38   one of the most common water problems they have

01:16:42   as Casey knows, because people often have drinks

01:16:45   on the table next to a laptop.

01:16:47   This is in coffee shops, on desks,

01:16:48   like all the time people have this.

01:16:50   And so if that drink goes over,

01:16:51   it's basically going to pour directly

01:16:53   into the middle of the laptop

01:16:55   where the laptop is covered in a giant grid of holes

01:16:59   for keys to go through.

01:17:00   And if it misses the keys, it'll go into the speakers

01:17:03   or the vents because they're air cooled.

01:17:06   So like on a phone, you don't really have all the,

01:17:08   you have a way smaller--

01:17:10   You got speakers, you got ports,

01:17:12   and the keyboard you can put in a big bathtub.

01:17:15   - You have a way smaller number of entry points on a phone.

01:17:20   And it's just a much simpler shape.

01:17:22   There are fewer holes.

01:17:24   You don't have air cooling of the internals

01:17:27   having a fan constantly sucking air through vents.

01:17:29   - You don't have that on the MacBook either.

01:17:30   I was like, I'm thinking, you start with the MacBook

01:17:32   and you don't try to keep water out of the keyboard

01:17:35   because it's impossible.

01:17:36   Instead, you just make the keyboard a sealed off region

01:17:39   where you can spill water in there

01:17:41   and then you pour the water out of there.

01:17:42   Like in other words, the water that goes in

01:17:44   through the keyboard does not go

01:17:45   to the rest of the computer.

01:17:46   Speakers, same deal.

01:17:48   You know, it's just like on the watch or anything else

01:17:50   or on the phone.

01:17:50   Yes, there are speakers.

01:17:52   Yes, you will get water in them and screw them up

01:17:54   as long as you can get the water out

01:17:55   and it doesn't destroy the entire computer.

01:17:56   And again, start with the MacBook, no fan,

01:17:58   because that's obviously the hardest one

01:17:59   because you can, all the other things you can deal with,

01:18:01   but fans having like air cooling and waterproof

01:18:05   really don't mix with each other in any sane way.

01:18:09   But I feel like this is an area where that could be improved.

01:18:11   Even if you just did the keyboard part of it,

01:18:14   like the keyboard and speaker part,

01:18:15   but still if you got water in the air vent,

01:18:17   it's you're still screwed, right?

01:18:18   Because you're right, the people spill it

01:18:19   on the top of the thing.

01:18:20   So this is a feature that Apple should roll out eventually

01:18:24   across all its entire product line.

01:18:27   It probably is not gonna come this year

01:18:29   or that we would have heard rumors of it.

01:18:30   And if there were rumors, I miss them.

01:18:32   But I think that's a fun wildcard.

01:18:34   - Well, and by the way, for whatever it's worth,

01:18:37   We are about to have, by all measures,

01:18:41   we're about to have at least two new Macs

01:18:44   announced in a week and probably three or more.

01:18:47   And we have seen almost no parts leaks.

01:18:52   We know roughly, there was that one case--

01:18:55   - At least in the top case, yeah,

01:18:56   with the place where the little strip goes.

01:18:57   - Yeah, we saw one 13-inch top case

01:19:00   and that was once ago and that's it.

01:19:01   We don't know anything about the 15-inch,

01:19:03   we don't know anything about the possible air

01:19:06   if that wasn't it.

01:19:07   we don't know anything about these computers

01:19:09   except for some of the feature bullet points,

01:19:11   which I think is kind of exciting.

01:19:12   I love not knowing all the details

01:19:15   of how they're gonna look and what exactly

01:19:17   they're gonna have.

01:19:18   - And what colors they'll come in or whatever.

01:19:20   Yeah, well, that's because people don't care.

01:19:21   That's honestly what it is.

01:19:22   There's a lower volume.

01:19:24   It's easier to keep a secret when you sell in lower volume,

01:19:26   and it's easier to keep a secret

01:19:27   when only weird Mac nerds care about this stuff.

01:19:30   So it must be refreshing grapple.

01:19:33   - You know, it's funny.

01:19:34   Jon, you just said something about colors,

01:19:36   and I'd like to go back like half an hour

01:19:38   in the conversation.

01:19:40   Wildcard, colors, like having--

01:19:43   - That's not a wildcard, that's been rumored, right?

01:19:45   - Oh, has it?

01:19:46   Okay, well--

01:19:47   - Well, and the MacBook One has colors, so you know.

01:19:49   - Yeah, I agree, but I'm saying that the whole line

01:19:52   or more of the line--

01:19:53   - Jet black.

01:19:54   - Oh, God, I don't think I want jet black,

01:19:56   but a matte black, mm-mm-mm.

01:19:58   - Well, here's one thing I thought of too,

01:19:59   like if, and again, this is probably overthinking it,

01:20:02   but if you look at the invitation,

01:20:03   The colors in that logo are very close to the metal colors

01:20:08   that Apple's recent hardware is available in,

01:20:12   with the exception of that orange.

01:20:14   But if you look at, they have a little tip of silver,

01:20:17   little gold, pink, and black.

01:20:19   - And red, and orange, I don't know, that's a stretch.

01:20:23   - Yeah, that's why, I mean, it is a stretch,

01:20:24   but there's certainly something.

01:20:26   I would expect that there are probably going to be

01:20:31   the metal, at least the same colors

01:20:32   the MacBook One is in, which is basically all of them except Rose Gold. Right there?

01:20:36   Is there? Did they make a Rose Gold MacBook One finally or no?

01:20:38   I thought they did.

01:20:40   Oh, maybe this year they did.

01:20:42   The thing with those colors is it's all basically silver aluminum with a tint that is so gentle

01:20:47   that depending on the lighting in the room they change appearance. It's like those cars

01:20:51   that are gray but look very, you know, have some color. Like, the colors are not particularly

01:20:55   bold. Whereas I would say matte black is bold and obviously jet black is bold. I really

01:20:59   they don't think they're gonna make a jet black Mac,

01:21:01   but they could totally make a matte black one

01:21:03   and I would love it.

01:21:04   I just haven't seen it rumored.

01:21:06   - I would love to see it.

01:21:08   - Yeah, 'cause honestly, the space gray MacBook One,

01:21:12   I don't think, I think it would look a lot better

01:21:14   if it was darker, basically.

01:21:15   It looks fine, but if I were getting a MacBook One today,

01:21:20   I actually wouldn't necessarily get space gray,

01:21:23   just because it's not, I don't know,

01:21:24   it's kind of a middle color, you know?

01:21:28   I wish to be a little bit more towards one end or the other.

01:21:31   - Yep, I agree.

01:21:31   All right, anything else on the event?

01:21:35   I know that there's another thing that just got rumored today

01:21:37   that we can talk about,

01:21:38   but anything else about the event specifically?

01:21:40   - I think it's related to the event,

01:21:42   this next rumor thing,

01:21:44   because the rumor, the story that was circulating today

01:21:48   was about a keyboard that wasn't just like

01:21:51   a regular keyboard with a new strip on top of it

01:21:54   that is a screen of some kind replacing the function keys,

01:21:57   but rather that every key on the keyboard would be kind of like a miniature ink display and be changeable have all the keycaps be

01:22:04   changeable or whatever and

01:22:06   It's weird to see this type of story breaking like shortly before an event when max will be announced

01:22:12   But I think we all pretty much agree and even these stories agree

01:22:15   Even if this whole thing about the E and keyboards is true. It's not for this event, right?

01:22:20   Yeah, that seemed consistent

01:22:23   It seemed kind of odd to me, like the idea in general, which is

01:22:29   have the entire keyboard, every key be its own ink display so it can change, you know,

01:22:35   what key does what as you change modes. So say perhaps if you hold the command key

01:22:40   maybe you could see like some text describing what each of those keys does and you hold command option and the text changes to show

01:22:46   what each of these hotkeys do.

01:22:48   Or maybe emoji come up on the physical keyboard, like in and of itself

01:22:53   I don't think that's an unreasonable idea

01:22:55   But it seemed odd to me that it sounded like Apple was going to a Foxconn like subsidiary or something like that in order

01:23:03   to get this

01:23:05   it seemed to me more like Apple would just buy this company or

01:23:08   Something on those lines if they really were interested in doing this sort of thing

01:23:13   And it was also an odd time for this rumor to leak like like you said

01:23:17   So I I don't put a whole lot of credence into this even though the idea in and of itself

01:23:21   I think sounds kind of cool.

01:23:23   I think that you see a story like this where a particular company is mentioned

01:23:27   Especially if it's a startup like this one was like an Australian startup is Apple is teaming up with them to blah blah blah

01:23:32   like it's easy to read these stories as

01:23:35   Intentional leak fabrication PR by someone who is interested in seeing this startups prospects being boosted

01:23:44   Like guess what Apple is secretly working with this startup on the next generation of all but like who knows what the actual dearest was

01:23:50   like I don't want to see an individual company's name in my rumors because then

01:23:54   I start thinking this entire story is a plant to boost the IPO or stock price or

01:23:58   whatever of this company right and so that makes me suspicious of this and

01:24:03   the timing as well like if you're not saying this is gonna be announced on the

01:24:07   27th like save it until after if you it's like even if you had this story and

01:24:12   you were like 9 to 5 Mac or something you would save it until after because

01:24:15   everyone right now should be talking about the root of the increasingly

01:24:18   accurate rumors about what's going to be announced on the 27th not "oh guess what you know the

01:24:23   next Apple laptop after the ones that haven't been announced yet they're going to have a

01:24:26   totally reconfigurable screen" so I think this is a not a great story I don't expect

01:24:34   to see reconfigurable EN keycaps on the 27th and I'm not entirely convinced that it's a

01:24:41   great idea even I just think about emoji it's like ink is cruddy ink is slow needs to be

01:24:46   refreshed you can't use it like the keycaps control panel on the old max where you hold

01:24:51   down the shift key and all the keycaps on the keyboard change to capitals. it's just too slow

01:24:55   and clunky for that. you have to constantly be clearing out the cruddy little pixels or little

01:25:01   balls that haven't turned over and it's just it's just not particularly app-alike. and we talked

01:25:05   about it for the little strip on top and the idea would be that it doesn't change that frequently

01:25:09   and that it can be reconfigurable and super low power but all the rumors have been pointing

01:25:13   towards that being a color screen and when you mentioned emoji who wants to

01:25:17   see black and white emoji keycaps you want to see a little yellow smiley face

01:25:20   it's true actually I didn't even think about that but that's a really good

01:25:23   point so I'm not putting much in this although I do kind of like the idea of

01:25:28   an infinitely reconfigurable keyboard but I still feel like that's gonna come

01:25:30   by Apple finally getting the guts the courage to get rid of all the moving

01:25:34   keys and just make a giant OLED thing oh please don't even suggest that oh god

01:25:38   you'll live to see it just wait I'll agree at the first keyboard I can't use

01:25:42   at all. That'll be wonderful.

01:25:45   Microsoft discontinued your keyboard too, so I don't know what happened.

01:25:48   I know. Well, at their Surface event, that's like two days before this, they're going to

01:25:51   announce a new, ergonomic Bluetooth keyboard that's going to be Surface branded. I'm just

01:25:55   hoping it's good.

01:25:57   Surface branded? What about it is surface-y? Is it going to have screens on it?

01:26:00   No, they're making basically like their own iMac, and they're calling it Surface something

01:26:04   or other. It's going to be in the Surface family, just by branding. And they're making

01:26:10   a whole new line of surface-branded keyboards and I think maybe mice also. And one of them

01:26:16   is an ergonomic Bluetooth keyboard that is apparently going to replace my beloved Sculpt

01:26:21   ergonomic keyboard.

01:26:22   Yours is wired though, right?

01:26:24   No, it's wireless but it has its own little custom dongle that kind of sucks. It's not

01:26:28   nearly as good as the Logitech ones.

01:26:30   Surface-branded iMac, will you be able to touch the screen? I'm not quite sure how far

01:26:33   they can stretch the surface thing. What is the surface that you're talking about? Because

01:26:37   it's not a tablet and it's not a touchscreen.

01:26:39   I mean if it's thin enough like the iMac,

01:26:40   if you touch that a lot, you'll knock it over.

01:26:43   Like that seems like a terrible idea.

01:26:45   - I was gonna say, will it be actually a touch screen?

01:26:47   'Cause they can make it a touch screen

01:26:48   'cause their OS supports that.

01:26:51   - Yeah, it's probably just like branding,

01:26:54   it's probably just gonna be a regular computer.

01:26:55   Anyway, I hope they release that soon

01:26:57   because I want to buy its keyboard

01:26:59   and hopefully you can buy the keyboard separately

01:27:02   earlier rather than later, but we'll see.

01:27:04   Their mics are pretty good with that usually.

01:27:06   It's probably gonna be available.

01:27:08   Anyway, are we done?

01:27:10   - Yeah, I think so.

01:27:11   - All right, thanks to our three sponsors this week,

01:27:14   Hover, Automatic, and Away, and we will see you next week.

01:27:18   (upbeat music)

01:27:21   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:27:23   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:27:26   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:27:27   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:27:28   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:27:30   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:27:31   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:27:33   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:27:36   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

01:27:39   It was accidental (it was accidental)

01:27:42   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:27:47   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:27:52   @caseyliss

01:27:56   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:28:00   ♪ Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:28:05   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-S-A ♪

01:28:08   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:28:09   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:28:11   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:28:13   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:28:14   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:28:16   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:28:18   ♪ So long ♪

01:28:20   All right, so we have lots of options for the post show here.

01:28:23   We could talk about Tesla,

01:28:24   we could talk about Project Titan,

01:28:25   we could talk about--

01:28:27   - Titan is a show topic, we're gonna save that for--

01:28:29   - Yeah, yeah, that's true.

01:28:30   - That's true. - That's true, especially

01:28:30   since it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

01:28:32   Plenty of time though. - We can talk about the debate,

01:28:33   we can talk about my camera stuff.

01:28:35   Actually, I did wanna throw in one quick thing

01:28:36   about the camera stuff while we have,

01:28:39   while we're talking about the Mac laptops.

01:28:41   I've mentioned in the past that I pretty much

01:28:44   always go 15-inch and I usually don't regret that choice

01:28:47   and I have often regretted when I've gone smaller.

01:28:50   I am considering whatever the new 13-inch Air

01:28:53   ends up being this time around

01:28:55   because one thing I noticed when I got,

01:28:57   when I started using this new Canon camera

01:29:00   that I mentioned last week.

01:29:02   So my Sony camera that I might be replacing

01:29:05   or at least using less is 42 megapixels.

01:29:09   And I shoot RAW so I can, for lots of good reasons.

01:29:12   And so processing 42 megapixel RAW files

01:29:16   just crushes computers.

01:29:18   They're so bad and they're so slow

01:29:22   at processing those files.

01:29:23   Even doing simple things like just rendering a preview

01:29:26   is a very sluggish operation.

01:29:28   And this is true between both Lightroom and Apple Photos,

01:29:31   so it isn't just like a Lightroom problem.

01:29:33   By comparison, so that's 42 megapixels,

01:29:35   the Canon is 30, which is still

01:29:38   a very high-resolution picture.

01:29:40   But for whatever reason, I assume it's because

01:29:43   many image processing operations

01:29:44   are not linear in complexity,

01:29:46   they're probably like exponential,

01:29:48   or at least worse than linear,

01:29:51   'cause they have to operate on pixels

01:29:52   that are around other pixels and everything.

01:29:54   So for whatever reason, processing of a 30 megapixel picture

01:29:58   is not only faster than a 42 megapixel picture,

01:30:02   but faster by more than you'd expect

01:30:05   by the 33% fewer pixels.

01:30:08   Like it's more than that much faster.

01:30:10   It's a lot faster.

01:30:12   - Maybe the Canon, the drivers for the 5D

01:30:14   are just better optimized, you know what I mean?

01:30:16   Like the whatever the camera raw, blah, blah, blah.

01:30:19   The thing that knows like, oh, this sensor's raw data,

01:30:21   here's how I should interpret it.

01:30:23   I can imagine that being very mature software for the 5D,

01:30:26   assuming that doesn't change from the Mark III

01:30:28   to the Mark IV or whatever.

01:30:29   I don't know enough about cameras

01:30:30   to know if that changes.

01:30:31   - Yeah, I mean, it does have these weird dual picture thing,

01:30:34   but I don't have that enabled.

01:30:35   It's basically, I would imagine,

01:30:39   Adobe probably optimizes as much as possible

01:30:43   for Canon SLRs, especially for the big ones,

01:30:45   because if you think about who is using Lightroom,

01:30:48   and what are the most popular cameras

01:30:50   using Adobe Lightroom,

01:30:52   I guarantee you the Canon 5D series

01:30:54   is gonna be pretty high on that list.

01:30:56   Like it's, and Canon in general is going to be

01:30:59   very high on that list.

01:31:01   So yeah, you're probably right to some degree.

01:31:03   However, I do still think that many common

01:31:07   image processing operations are worse than linear

01:31:10   in time complexity as the number of pixels grows.

01:31:14   But anyway, so because of that,

01:31:17   because of this being like way, way faster

01:31:19   to process images, I actually might be able

01:31:21   to step down reasonably to the 13 inch.

01:31:24   So I actually might try that this cycle, I don't know.

01:31:27   - But what about Xcode?

01:31:28   That was the whole reason like,

01:31:28   oh, when I'm on vacation, I need to do some work stuff.

01:31:31   I hate not having the tiny screen

01:31:32   when I try to fire up Xcode and stuff.

01:31:34   - It's mostly that I like,

01:31:37   basically I hardly ever actually do that with my laptop.

01:31:41   And I also, I thought for a while,

01:31:44   I thought that I could bring only my new 9.7 inch iPad Pro

01:31:51   on trips where I was not gonna be able

01:31:52   to get any work done, and figuring that like,

01:31:55   worst case scenario, let's say I have

01:31:56   some major server problems, and I need to do

01:31:58   a whole bunch of like, logging into servers,

01:32:00   changing stuff, resetting stuff,

01:32:02   or setting up new servers, whatever it is.

01:32:03   I need terminals for that.

01:32:05   And on the iPad, there is a wonderful app I painted

01:32:07   called Prompt, which is a pretty good terminal app.

01:32:09   And so, I thought for a while, like,

01:32:13   oh, this would be wonderful, I could just bring this

01:32:15   on a trip, and if the unthinkable happens,

01:32:16   and I need to do a bunch of server work,

01:32:18   I really, I can just use Prompt,

01:32:20   and I can log into my servers there

01:32:21   with my little external smart keyboard from the iPad,

01:32:25   it'll be fine.

01:32:26   This week I actually tried to do that

01:32:29   because this past week I did,

01:32:32   I had to upgrade all of my SSH keys

01:32:35   from the old DSA format to the less old RSA format

01:32:40   and increase everything 'cause basically

01:32:42   Sierra does not allow you to log in without modification,

01:32:45   does not allow you to log in with DSA keys.

01:32:47   And yes, there's some various things you could try.

01:32:50   there's like configuration options you can you can do to

01:32:53   fix that, but I couldn't find any of them at the moment, so I

01:32:55   thought all right, let me just I go to my ipad because I know I

01:32:58   know prompt can still log in with these old keys and and I

01:33:01   already had my key on it, so I thought great this will be

01:33:02   perfect. I'll use prompt. I'll log into my old servers and

01:33:05   I'll add my new keys to it and it was great because I got to

01:33:07   do wonderful things like use the new shared clipboard

01:33:10   feature so I could like copy my keys on my mac and then paste

01:33:15   them into prompt and you know into a server window and add it

01:33:17   to the authorized keys file.

01:33:19   So wonderful things there, it was wonderful.

01:33:21   However, I learned during that process

01:33:23   that using the iPad and that keyboard

01:33:27   and not like a full-blown terminal app,

01:33:31   but just like this kind of iOS-ified terminal app,

01:33:33   even though as terminal apps go for iOS,

01:33:36   prompt is great, but it is nothing compared

01:33:39   to having a whole bunch of terminals

01:33:40   and a real keyboard on my Mac, like not even close.

01:33:43   And I decided then and there,

01:33:45   If I actually ever needed to do major server work on this,

01:33:49   this would not be a fun experience.

01:33:50   I would really regret it and I would wish for a Mac.

01:33:53   And on trips too, there was a great discussion

01:33:57   on Upgrade this week where Jason Snell and Mike

01:33:59   really were talking about this and kind of discussing

01:34:02   what they bring on trips, 'cause both of them

01:34:04   are very heavy iPad users now.

01:34:06   They both mostly just use Macs now for things

01:34:11   like media production tasks like podcast and video editing

01:34:13   that are just still done better on the Mac,

01:34:16   even though they both attempt to do it on iPads, more Jason.

01:34:19   And one thing that Jason said,

01:34:21   which I thought was very apt about,

01:34:23   trying to use the iPad for, quote, productivity

01:34:25   or making it your only traveling device.

01:34:27   One of the things is like with the iPad,

01:34:30   you often just like hit a wall,

01:34:32   just like something that it just can't do.

01:34:34   And sometimes you can like download an app

01:34:36   or use a certain workflow or use some kind of big work

01:34:38   around, but sometimes you just can't.

01:34:40   Like sometimes the answer is you just can't do that really

01:34:42   on an iPad or whatever.

01:34:44   And so the idea of me ever bringing an iPad only

01:34:49   on a trip now has gotten a lot,

01:34:52   as I've used the iPad more

01:34:53   and as I've tried to do more productive things on it,

01:34:55   I have realized more and more that this is not a device

01:34:58   for me to be productive with.

01:34:59   Like other people can do it good for them.

01:35:01   It's not for me.

01:35:02   It really does not fit both the kind of work I do,

01:35:05   the kinds of needs I sometimes have when I'm traveling,

01:35:08   and just the way I like to work.

01:35:10   It is not for me.

01:35:11   So I really want something small that I can travel with.

01:35:14   And the MacBook One obviously is the way to go

01:35:18   for optimizing for that,

01:35:19   but that's just like too far in the other direction

01:35:21   and that would make me miserable every time I had to use it

01:35:23   'cause I really hate the keyboard.

01:35:24   It really doesn't have enough power for me, et cetera.

01:35:27   The MacBook Pro is great, but huge.

01:35:30   And so I do kind of want to bring it places less

01:35:35   because of how big it is.

01:35:37   So that's why I'm kind of thinking

01:35:39   maybe I'll try the 13 inch this year.

01:35:42   Because I don't often need Xcode on the go.

01:35:46   For the few times I do, I could, you know,

01:35:48   I'd be just fine on a MacBook Air.

01:35:51   I've done it before, that's how I wrote half of Instapaper.

01:35:53   So like, I've done it before, I know I can do it,

01:35:56   lots of people do it every day,

01:35:57   it's not like it's unheard of,

01:35:58   as long as it's retina, Casey.

01:36:00   (laughing)

01:36:01   I'm not gonna do iOS on non-retina, dammit.

01:36:03   (laughing)

01:36:05   But anyway, so that's why I'm kind of thinking about

01:36:09   at this time and you know, ask me again in six months

01:36:12   when I say, oh God, I should have gotten the 15,

01:36:14   but we'll see and we don't know anything about these yet.

01:36:16   So the 15 could be so compelling,

01:36:19   I might just get it anyway.

01:36:21   Or the 13 inch might be the star of the show.

01:36:25   Or the 13 inch could be really, you know, I could be wrong.

01:36:27   The Retina Air might not exist and then, you know,

01:36:31   the 13 inch MacBook Pro is an option, but it's, you know,

01:36:34   that's so close to the 15 in size and weight

01:36:36   that I kinda might as well go 15 at that point.

01:36:38   So I don't know, we'll see what happens,

01:36:39   but I just, I figured it was an interesting,

01:36:43   Mark was waffling segment here,

01:36:44   interesting that I was considering that

01:36:46   for the unexpected reason that processing the files

01:36:48   from this new camera is so ridiculously much faster

01:36:51   than processing from the previous one.

01:36:53   - So you get a keyboard for your iPad.

01:36:54   Like not that it'll make the terminal

01:36:56   as good as it is on the Mac,

01:36:57   but a lot of my frustration is like,

01:36:59   well, so the keyboard takes up half your screen.

01:37:01   - No, no, no, I have the Apple Smart Keyboard.

01:37:03   - Oh, and even then, you thought it wasn't,

01:37:05   what was an inferior experience,

01:37:07   other than the fact that you can't have multiple windows

01:37:08   and like moving around and everything.

01:37:10   - I mean, part of it is that the Apple Smart Keyboard

01:37:12   isn't a very good keyboard, and so there's things like,

01:37:14   there's no escape key, which when you're using Vim

01:37:17   is kind of annoying.

01:37:18   - Really?

01:37:19   - When doing a lot of terminal work,

01:37:19   it's kind of annoying actually, and there's one right

01:37:21   on screen that I just haven't had to keep hitting,

01:37:23   but it's just, it's annoying.

01:37:24   - There's no escape key on the big,

01:37:26   if you have the 12 inch iPad Pro also noticed

01:37:28   the escape key on the keyboard?

01:37:29   - I don't know about that one, but on the 9.7 Smart Keyboard

01:37:32   there is no escape key, and so that's annoying.

01:37:35   There's a couple other missing keys

01:37:37   that are kind of annoying to have.

01:37:38   Also, one thing I found,

01:37:39   I don't know if this is a problem with prompt

01:37:42   or the keyboard,

01:37:43   but I would very often get keystrokes

01:37:48   that would arrive in the terminal

01:37:51   in the wrong order that I typed them,

01:37:54   which is infuriating.

01:37:55   It was very, very difficult.

01:37:58   I assume that maybe prompt isn't handling latency correctly

01:38:01   in that case or something,

01:38:02   or there's some problem between the keyboard

01:38:04   and the iPad and prompt and the terminal.

01:38:06   Somewhere on the line, keystrokes were actually

01:38:08   getting jumbled if you typed anything too quickly.

01:38:11   And that sucks.

01:38:13   That is not acceptable at all for terminal work.

01:38:17   And also just the complexity of iPad multitasking

01:38:22   being a lot more primitive than what you can get in a Mac

01:38:26   if you want multiple windows open and stuff like that.

01:38:28   So it's a kind of thing like in an emergency

01:38:31   you could do simple things on it,

01:38:34   but I really would not want to,

01:38:35   and I would much rather take out a Mac

01:38:38   and do it right and do it there.

01:38:39   - What else is going on?

01:38:41   - Is anyone thinking of buying anything

01:38:42   after the Apple event?

01:38:44   Like Marco, I guess you're in the market for a laptop,

01:38:46   it sounds like, but anyone else?

01:38:48   - I actually, I do want AirPods.

01:38:50   I don't know-- - Oh yeah, I guess.

01:38:52   - I don't know if I'm going to end up

01:38:54   being able to wear them comfort-wise,

01:38:56   but I really do wanna try them

01:38:58   for their most likely incredible convenience.

01:39:02   to be able to have, as I mentioned before,

01:39:04   to be able to have headphones that I could literally put

01:39:06   in this large Tic Tac shaped box in my pocket

01:39:10   and carry them somewhere without having anything

01:39:12   in larger pockets or around my neck or in a bag,

01:39:15   that is incredibly compelling for me.

01:39:17   So if I can do that at all, I want them.

01:39:21   And comfort wise, I have low expectations.

01:39:24   I hope I can wear them at all.

01:39:26   I don't expect them to be great,

01:39:27   I just hope I can wear them at all.

01:39:28   I do expect them to be very annoying

01:39:30   and the lack of controls on them.

01:39:33   But I'm hoping maybe that I can overcome that

01:39:36   or just tolerate it when I'm using them

01:39:39   or start using the Apple Watch

01:39:41   when I'm out walking my dog or something like that.

01:39:44   - Yeah, I'm not going to buy AirPods

01:39:46   immediately after the event,

01:39:47   but I think they're going on my holiday list

01:39:49   'cause I'd really like to try a pair.

01:39:52   And I think they'll come in handy from time to time

01:39:54   even if I don't use them regularly.

01:39:57   But I don't plan on buying any new hardware

01:40:01   outside of potentially AirPods eventually

01:40:04   based on the event.

01:40:06   What about you, Jon?

01:40:07   - So my current plan is about six months from now

01:40:11   after work has gone through all of their current inventory

01:40:14   of MacBook Pros that they hand out to people,

01:40:17   I'm going to finally replace my Mac at work

01:40:19   and replace it with one of the new MacBook Pros,

01:40:21   which I hope I will be guaranteed to get at that point.

01:40:25   - Wow.

01:40:26   I have the same Mac that I got the day I started at my job,

01:40:31   seven or so years ago.

01:40:33   It's 2009 Mac Pro, it has never been upgraded.

01:40:36   Our current upgrade cycle at work, I forget what it is,

01:40:38   but I think it's really short.

01:40:38   It's like 18 months or something you can get a new computer,

01:40:41   or maybe it's two years, I don't remember.

01:40:42   Anyway, I'm kind of overdue.

01:40:45   It's seven or eight years with my computer.

01:40:48   So they're not gonna get me an iMac.

01:40:52   Everyone gets laptops.

01:40:53   Like I don't think that's even a choice.

01:40:54   And I don't think I can swing it by convincing them

01:40:57   that I need to, I wouldn't want a Mac Pro obviously

01:40:59   at this point.

01:41:00   And I don't think I can convince them about a 5GI Mac.

01:41:02   So I'm going to end up getting a laptop

01:41:04   and the best laptop I can get is a 15 inch Pro

01:41:06   but I do not want one of the current 15 inch Pros

01:41:09   for obvious reasons.

01:41:10   I want the new one.

01:41:11   So when the new ones are announced

01:41:12   the clock starts ticking onto

01:41:13   when is it safe for me at work to ask for a new computer

01:41:17   and to be able to get one of the new 15 inches.

01:41:20   Cause I don't want to ask for 15 inch

01:41:21   and they asked to give me an old one

01:41:23   because it's just a whole big thing.

01:41:24   So there is a timer that will start on the 27th most likely but no immediate action

01:41:29   Oh, and I will probably I'll look at the air pods

01:41:31   Like I'm still planning to upgrade my iPhone still haven't been to the Apple Store to pick out a color

01:41:36   But eventually that will happen and I'm almost certain I'm gonna get the eye of the air your pods just to try them air pods

01:41:42   Whatever the hell they're called. What's not making rhyming product names Apple

01:41:45   I'm almost guaranteed to get them because I like the current ear pod things and I wanted a wireless thing. So that's probably gonna happen

01:41:53   happen.

01:41:55   [ Silence ]