191: The Failure Mode of a Train


00:00:00   We didn't get to talk about this in the show, but the most important revelation of Casey's video of him sending me the dollar is just how terrible his handwriting is.

00:00:06   Like, my handwriting is bad, but wow.

00:00:09   So here's why it's extra awful. Like, my handwriting is like chicken scratch. I have terrible handwriting, right?

00:00:13   But yours is terrible, but then it has an extra flavor, and the extra flavor is it's terrible and you do unconventional things.

00:00:20   You connect letters in ways that other people don't. So it's not just like you're sloppily drawing the letter shapes.

00:00:26   You decide that two letters should be connected like in ways that are not normal.

00:00:31   So it's just hard to parse.

00:00:33   You're like, "Is this even English letters?

00:00:36   I don't even know what you're—" Boy, bad handwriting.

00:00:42   Marco was saying before the show that he was having a little bit of troubles with the live

00:00:45   stream and I didn't understand why for a moment until you started explaining to me

00:00:49   what's going on and then I realized, "Oh yes, I'm having similar problems but manifesting

00:00:54   themselves in different ways.

00:00:56   So why don't you tell the listeners what's going on?

00:00:58   - Okay, so as you might have noticed,

00:01:00   the tweet that announced that we were going to be live,

00:01:03   the time duration that was in that tweet,

00:01:05   normally it's like, we'll be live in 45 minutes.

00:01:08   You know, usually I try to start the livestream

00:01:10   about a half hour or a little more before recording.

00:01:14   And today, the time interval was seven minutes,

00:01:17   or eight minutes, I forget which one.

00:01:20   And the reason why that took so long to set up,

00:01:22   I was here at 8.30, I was here at the 30 minute mark

00:01:25   trying to get it going and I realized all afternoon

00:01:28   and evening, Hover has been going through this massive

00:01:32   DDoS attack that has taken down, among other things,

00:01:35   their DNS servers.

00:01:36   Marker.org is hosted by Hover, registered at Hover

00:01:40   and I use their DNS.

00:01:41   Marker.org's VPS is what hosts the Icecast server

00:01:46   that powers this live stream.

00:01:47   I basically spent the last half hour trying to,

00:01:50   first seeing if I could get it working just by IP address,

00:01:54   but that was going to be tricky

00:01:55   because of various virtual hosting things.

00:01:57   And then eventually I just created a whole new host name.

00:02:00   Hover didn't register .fms for a while.

00:02:02   I actually don't know if they do yet.

00:02:04   I think they might now,

00:02:05   but for a long time they didn't register .fms.

00:02:07   So ATP.fm is registered at gandhi.net.

00:02:11   So I quickly ran over there,

00:02:12   created a new domain name live.ATP.fm.

00:02:16   Hoped that that propagated in time

00:02:18   to be requested by anybody, and fortunately it did.

00:02:21   I created that name at like 8.40,

00:02:23   and basically moved the whole thing over to that

00:02:26   and it's pointing to the same IP,

00:02:27   pointing to the same server and basically required

00:02:30   only a very quick creation of a new virtual host

00:02:32   on the market.org server to just recognize that host name

00:02:34   and give it the little tiny little HTML page

00:02:37   that basically embeds the audio player.

00:02:39   And that all worked and it was great and there we go.

00:02:43   So now we are streaming from live.atp.fm

00:02:48   instead of market.org, colon, 808080 or whatever it was.

00:02:53   And it actually appears the DNS outage

00:02:55   might actually have just ended, but oh well.

00:02:58   - People are starting to tweet at me saying,

00:03:01   oh your site's down, your site's down, your site's down.

00:03:02   And for a fleeting moment I was like,

00:03:03   oh did I get Fireballed?

00:03:04   That's exciting, or something like that.

00:03:06   And then I thought, no, this was just a link post,

00:03:08   I wouldn't be Fireballed for that.

00:03:09   And then it occurred to me,

00:03:10   oh no, this is a much greater issue entirely.

00:03:13   - I think it really says a lot about

00:03:14   how little I blog anymore,

00:03:16   that my site has basically been up and down

00:03:20   for like the last five or six hours whenever this started.

00:03:23   And I got in total one tweet about it.

00:03:27   Oh, I'm so glad that I have not had to deal with

00:03:31   stuff like that in my various server administration stuff.

00:03:35   That's gotta be hell to deal with, deal with DDoSs.

00:03:38   - Yeah, I can't imagine, especially if,

00:03:40   I mean imagine if you're Hover where you're hosting DNS

00:03:43   for so many people, like that's your business

00:03:46   to some degree and oh God, no thank you.

00:03:49   I'm glad that's not my problem.

00:03:51   I'm curious, for the people in the chat

00:03:53   who are recommending different DNS providers,

00:03:56   I guess I don't know this, I probably should know this.

00:03:58   Isn't your registrar like the top authority?

00:04:01   So like if somebody had a totally empty cache,

00:04:04   suppose my registrar is still Hover,

00:04:06   but suppose I host the DNS somewhere else

00:04:08   like Cloudflare or whatever.

00:04:09   If a new request goes to fetch my DNS

00:04:12   that has no cache information at any stage of the way,

00:04:15   is it first gonna go to my registrar

00:04:16   to see who the NS is and then go to the NS?

00:04:19   So basically, would I have to change my registrar

00:04:22   in order to prevent this from ever hitting me again?

00:04:25   - How would it know to go to your registrar?

00:04:28   - Well, how does it, I don't know.

00:04:29   How does DNS actually work at the very low level?

00:04:31   I have no idea.

00:04:32   - You should read one of the O'Reilly books

00:04:35   on DNS and bind or something.

00:04:36   My vague recollection, and the only way that occurs to me

00:04:40   now as I think about it, which is probably informed

00:04:42   by my vague recollection, is if you've got no information,

00:04:45   you can't start by going to the name server for that domain

00:04:48   because you don't know what the name server for that domain is.

00:04:51   So there's a set of root name servers that handle requests, you know, that shouldn't

00:04:55   handle requests at all because there's so many layers of caching in between.

00:05:00   But if you really started from nothing, there's a set of root name servers for .com and .net

00:05:05   and .whatever.

00:05:06   And I don't know who those root name servers are, and I don't know if there is a more complicated

00:05:10   system in place that makes this old information obsolete because I read this book in the '90s,

00:05:14   but that is my recollection.

00:05:15   - Yeah, and all the people in the chat seem to be supporting

00:05:17   the fact that basically, like, if you don't use

00:05:20   your registrar's name servers, that your registrar

00:05:23   is not involved in looking you up for DNS in any way.

00:05:25   That it goes up through the ICANN and ARIN maintained

00:05:30   master servers and stuff like that, as you were saying.

00:05:31   So, it sounds like I can stick with Hover

00:05:34   for the registration and just move the DNS somewhere else.

00:05:37   So, that's good.

00:05:38   I think I might do that, just to move it

00:05:39   somewhere smaller, basically.

00:05:41   - It's time for you to run your own DNS server.

00:05:43   "Hey, why don't you write your own DNS server?

00:05:45   It's a thing that people have done before."

00:05:48   Just ask those people.

00:05:49   They love it.

00:05:50   - Well, actually, it's funny you bring this up,

00:05:52   and I'm not trying to be funny.

00:05:53   One thing that I've wondered,

00:05:55   and I keep meaning to ask you, Marco,

00:05:57   but I keep forgetting about it,

00:05:58   and this is a perfect opportunity.

00:06:00   When you were building Tumblr

00:06:02   and you were giving people subdomains, weren't you?

00:06:06   Well, maybe not you personally,

00:06:07   but I'm saying Tumblr was giving people subdomains.

00:06:10   How did that work exactly?

00:06:13   - Excellent question.

00:06:15   So the problem, as you know, but our listeners might not,

00:06:19   you know, basically the idea is

00:06:21   if you have some giant web service

00:06:22   and you try to have people like hosted remains there,

00:06:25   so basically pointing their DNS to you,

00:06:27   if they're hosting a subdomain like www.caseylist.com,

00:06:32   they can point that to a CNAME.

00:06:34   And a CNAME can just be like, you know,

00:06:36   hosts.squarespace.net or whatever,

00:06:38   and then that host.squarespace.net can lead

00:06:42   anywhere that Squarespace wants it to.

00:06:43   It could lead to a whole bunch of load balancers,

00:06:45   it can be geographically distributed,

00:06:46   it could be moved around between hosts or servers

00:06:48   if it needs to, it's great.

00:06:50   The problem is that the very root entry,

00:06:52   so like, inside of www.caseylist.com,

00:06:55   if it's just caseylist.com with no www,

00:06:59   that can't point to a CNAME,

00:07:00   that has to be an A record for it to work.

00:07:03   And an A record, it needs to be an IP address.

00:07:05   So you basically have to have a special kind of IP address

00:07:10   that you can route to different servers as needed.

00:07:14   Like if you just have that as a load balancer.

00:07:16   So there are very advanced routing things you can do

00:07:20   to make that not crazy, but they're not easy

00:07:24   and they are limited when you have the IP

00:07:28   instead of like a CNAME.

00:07:29   What we did for the first couple of years,

00:07:33   Tumblr started out at Rackspace.

00:07:35   It started out with one server at Rackspace

00:07:37   and then eventually it grew to three servers at Rackspace,

00:07:40   and then it was like, oh, sh*t,

00:07:41   Rackspace is ridiculously expensive,

00:07:44   we will never be able to afford to scale here,

00:07:46   so we very quickly moved over to what was then called

00:07:48   The Planet, which is now today Softlayer.

00:07:50   We had already started telling people to point their names

00:07:54   at this one IP that we had at Rackspace,

00:07:56   it was just our master server with the load balancer on it.

00:07:59   When we moved to The Planet,

00:08:01   we kept one server at Rackspace for a long time.

00:08:06   it had to be at least two years into Tumblr's

00:08:09   like insane growth where if you had looked

00:08:12   at our DNS help page before like six months

00:08:16   into the service, your domain would have been pointed there

00:08:19   which is many of our very large users being proxied through,

00:08:23   I forget whether it was Squid or, oh crap,

00:08:27   what's that, HAProxy, yeah, so it was either Squid

00:08:30   or HAProxy running on this one Rackspace server for years,

00:08:33   proxying all this old traffic and eventually

00:08:35   they shut that down, I think, but it was years and years

00:08:37   into the service, and then when we were at the planet,

00:08:40   we basically had some kind of floating IP

00:08:42   that their routers could assign to anything

00:08:44   within the data center, and that made that

00:08:46   a little bit easier, and I'm sure with GeoDNS,

00:08:49   you might have more options, I don't know enough

00:08:51   about it to say, fortunately, by the time Tumblr

00:08:53   needed to care about stuff like that,

00:08:54   I was gone and it wasn't my job anymore.

00:08:56   - But that was all for me redirecting my own domain

00:09:00   to Tumblr, right, so how does something.tumblr.com

00:09:04   work, though?

00:09:05   - Well, that's just a wildcard virtual host.

00:09:08   That's like, the web servers just literally

00:09:11   just had wildcard virtual hosts,

00:09:12   and so the PHP app that would get the inbound request

00:09:16   would just look at what the host name was,

00:09:18   and then dispatch it from there.

00:09:20   - That's cheating.

00:09:21   - Why?

00:09:22   - I don't know, I'm just kidding.

00:09:24   I was expecting this super long and involved answer,

00:09:26   and that was super simple and boring.

00:09:28   I'm disappointed.

00:09:29   - Sorry.

00:09:30   - That's all right, I'll forgive you this once.

00:09:32   - All right, we should probably get into follow-up proper.

00:09:35   I think I have all of the follow-up this week,

00:09:38   which is making me very uncomfortable, to be honest,

00:09:42   but we're gonna roll with it.

00:09:43   - If I'm here, Casey, and you're here,

00:09:45   doesn't it make it our follow-up?

00:09:47   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:09:48   But I am the one who put all of the three bullets

00:09:50   into the show notes, which is, I think, a first,

00:09:54   and I'm not feeling too comfortable with this.

00:09:56   - I mean, in reality, isn't it always

00:09:57   basically Jon's follow-up?

00:09:59   - Basically, but here we are.

00:10:01   So anyway, a friend of the show, Steve Trout and Smith, put up a Twitter poll, I don't

00:10:08   know, a week ago, maybe a little over a week ago.

00:10:10   It says, "Listening to the latest HPFM, I'm curious, did you turn on desktop and documents

00:10:14   iCloud sync in macOS Sierra?"

00:10:17   I did, and I'm happy with it.

00:10:19   Now, Steve is a very prolific iOS developer and hacker, so you have to consider that when

00:10:25   you consider the sort of person that is likely to follow him.

00:10:30   And the poll results as we record, 30% yes and I'm happy with it, 4% yes and I regretted

00:10:36   it, 29% no and the winner, 37% hell no.

00:10:41   Which I just thought was kind of interesting.

00:10:45   So yeah, so thanks to Steve for putting that up.

00:10:48   I don't believe in the official Twitter client, thus I cannot create polls.

00:10:52   I love seeing the empty space where a poll should be as I browse Twitter.

00:10:57   Sometimes it's not obvious.

00:10:58   Obviously, sometimes you can sense, like, "This must be a poll, but this tweet doesn't

00:11:02   make sense.

00:11:03   Oh well, I'll never see it," and I continue on my way.

00:11:05   Yup.

00:11:06   So this, obviously this is not a scientific poll, whatever, it's just Twitter stuff.

00:11:10   The fact that most people have been scared away from this feature, like I said, if it's

00:11:15   a bunch of nerds following, you know, a nerdy Twitter account, it makes sense that they

00:11:19   would be the people who are reading reviews and becoming, or listening to our podcast

00:11:22   and being scared away from the feature.

00:11:23   So that's why the vast majority are like, "No, I did not enable this feature," and that's

00:11:26   That's why hell no wins because these people are afraid of the future because they've read

00:11:29   scary things about it.

00:11:31   The other possibility is even if the things they read about aren't that scary, they may

00:11:35   be in a situation like me where they know that they're an outlier, that they have a

00:11:40   lot of files or they have some very large files and they think even if it works for

00:11:44   most people, I know I'm at the edge of the envelope here and I probably shouldn't enable

00:11:48   it.

00:11:49   But if you just look at the people who did enable it, most of them are happy with it.

00:11:53   So 4% yes and I regretted it isn't that big a number.

00:11:56   And of course the people who are happy with it,

00:11:58   maybe they're happy with it now,

00:11:59   wait a year to see how happy they are.

00:12:01   Cause you know, all it takes is one thing that goes awry

00:12:04   that you become upset about.

00:12:05   But anyway, it's really difficult to get a read

00:12:09   on these things without an actual study controlling

00:12:14   for all the variables, especially when nerdy people

00:12:16   like us ask about it because it's a self-selecting group.

00:12:20   I wanted to also briefly touch on my headphones.

00:12:24   Last week, we had talked about how my beloved

00:12:26   but ancient and adorably crappy headphones

00:12:29   had kicked the bucket, well, sort of.

00:12:32   They weren't cooperating well with my work laptop with Sierra

00:12:34   which is the laptop that they're pretty much

00:12:36   always connected to.

00:12:37   And I had solicited suggestions for alternatives

00:12:40   and promptly ignored every single one of them

00:12:43   because guess what headphones

00:12:44   spontaneously started working again?

00:12:46   The old crappy, adorable headphones.

00:12:48   - Hey. - I did, yeah,

00:12:50   I was very excited about this.

00:12:51   I did do a PRAM reset, which I didn't have a chance to do

00:12:54   before the show.

00:12:55   Of course, I was shotgunning and just trying everything

00:12:58   under the sun to try to figure out how to make them work

00:13:00   again, and I'm not entirely clear what it was that did it

00:13:03   for sure.

00:13:04   I think I had rebooted it at least once.

00:13:06   - Is that what shotgunning means?

00:13:08   It's like trying two headphones at once?

00:13:10   - Yeah, something like that.

00:13:11   No, it's just the old shotguns.

00:13:12   They spray a bunch of little pellets everywhere.

00:13:14   At least that's my understanding.

00:13:16   Don't email me.

00:13:18   - Now we're gonna hear from gun people.

00:13:19   Yeah, I know, please don't email me.

00:13:21   I'm so sorry, God.

00:13:22   I'm so sorry.

00:13:23   Anyway, so I wanted to quickly cover a handful of options

00:13:28   if you're in a similar scenario

00:13:29   that I heard a lot of responses from.

00:13:32   The first one, the Motorola S305,

00:13:35   these links will all be in the show notes.

00:13:36   Those are the ones I used prior to the ones

00:13:38   that I am currently using.

00:13:40   And I loved them,

00:13:42   except that the battery went to crap pretty darn quickly.

00:13:44   And I used to be able to make it through an entire day

00:13:47   very fast and by, I don't know, maybe six months or a year after getting them, I could

00:13:51   no longer make an entire day with the S305s.

00:13:55   There were a lot of suggestions for the Plantronics Backbeat Fit, which have the behind the neck

00:14:01   head bone, or head bone, wow, the behind the neck brace, if you will, that I had been requesting

00:14:07   because I'm too prissy to have my hair squashed.

00:14:11   But those were also kind of sort of earbuds, and to me, if I'm going to go earbuds, I might

00:14:14   might as well just go AirPods,

00:14:17   potential battery issues be damned.

00:14:18   But those were very, very popular,

00:14:21   very, very popular response.

00:14:23   I was almost going to buy our next set,

00:14:26   which is the Kinevo, Kinevo, Kinevo, I don't know, Kinewa,

00:14:31   BTH260 V2. (laughing)

00:14:33   - It's pronounced As-ah-ee.

00:14:34   (laughing)

00:14:36   - Quino, what was that commercial?

00:14:38   It was some football, but food commercial.

00:14:40   Anyway, point being the Kinevo BTH260,

00:14:44   There is an older version,

00:14:46   I don't recall the model name, number, whatever,

00:14:50   that did not support aptX, but this pair apparently does.

00:14:54   And this is what I was about to buy

00:14:56   when my old Bluetooth headphones came back to life.

00:15:00   Then a lot of people suggested various kinds of earbuds

00:15:05   but with shoulder or neck harness things.

00:15:10   - Those things always look horrible to me.

00:15:12   those always look like the worst of all worlds, basically.

00:15:15   It's like you have this like,

00:15:17   you have the discomfort of earbuds

00:15:19   and all the crappy sound that usually goes along with them.

00:15:24   But you don't have like the tiny,

00:15:26   you know, tiny little size

00:15:27   or wrap around the phone kind of cable.

00:15:28   You still have this big block of battery and crap

00:15:31   that you have to deal with and it's just ew.

00:15:32   Like I don't get why anybody likes those.

00:15:35   Please don't write in.

00:15:36   - Yeah, and I completely agree

00:15:38   with everything you just said.

00:15:39   There are very, very many different flavors of this,

00:15:42   The particular example I'm putting in the show notes is the LG Tone Pro HBS750, and

00:15:47   again these will be in the show notes.

00:15:49   I completely agree with you.

00:15:50   The thought of having this thing resting on my shoulders yet also having earbuds seems

00:15:53   like the worst of all worlds.

00:15:55   Not for me, but definitely on paper it sounds like it would be good because presumably it

00:16:00   has forever long battery life.

00:16:02   This particular set is also aptX compatible, etc. etc.

00:16:05   The final recommendation, which I'm actually looking into because they just seem very interesting

00:16:10   to me is bone conduction headphones.

00:16:17   The way these work are you have these things that sit pressing against your cheekbones

00:16:22   and they vibrate your cheekbones which vibrates your head and the things inside your head

00:16:27   hopefully kind of in a not dangerous way.

00:16:30   A lot of people wrote in to talk about that and I'm actually looking into that as well.

00:16:34   So the Aftershokz Trekz is an example of that.

00:16:37   That'll be in the show notes too.

00:16:38   So if you're in a similar situation,

00:16:41   you can look at all those or just try to find

00:16:43   an ancient pair like I have and do whatever

00:16:45   magical incantations/sacrifices I did

00:16:48   in order to get them to work.

00:16:49   - So I'm curious, because of my whole inability

00:16:53   to comfortably wear anything in-ear,

00:16:56   I don't really know the answer to this.

00:16:57   I'm curious, for all these really tiny

00:17:00   in-ear Bluetooth things, what do they do

00:17:02   for remote control commands, things like volume

00:17:05   and play/pause and skip back/skip forward?

00:17:07   Do they have buttons somehow for that?

00:17:08   Like how do they do that?

00:17:10   - Well, and that's why the Plantronics Backbeat Fit

00:17:13   are a popular choice, I think,

00:17:16   because they have those bars that rest on your shoulders,

00:17:20   so those orbs that rest on your shoulders

00:17:22   that I presume have, oh, excuse me, I'm sorry,

00:17:25   I'm getting myself backwards.

00:17:26   Let me try that all over again.

00:17:28   So that's why the Plantronics Backbeat Fit is popular

00:17:32   is because they're earbuds,

00:17:33   but with like panels on the outside of the earbud,

00:17:36   if that makes any sense at all.

00:17:38   And so the buttons are on there.

00:17:40   And additionally, on those shoulder harness-y things,

00:17:44   the LGs, and I think a few people had recommended Sonys

00:17:46   that were a similar design.

00:17:48   Those, I think, have the buttons on those little

00:17:51   like shoulder pad things, or whatever they are,

00:17:53   that rest on your shoulder.

00:17:54   So I guess that works for those.

00:17:56   But I can't speak for any like true to form earbuds.

00:18:01   And I did get a lot of recommendations, actually.

00:18:04   And I can't recall which one was the most popular,

00:18:05   but a lot of recommendations for just straight up earbuds that have the cord behind you.

00:18:11   But if I'm going to go that route, I'd rather have like the ones I have today that just

00:18:16   kind of rest on my ears.

00:18:18   I'm not a big earbud fan, although that being said, the more I hear about the AirPods, the

00:18:23   more I think they're going on my holiday list.

00:18:26   Because it sounds like they're the best possible solution in that they have almost enough battery

00:18:32   life if I listen all day long. Oh, JaybirdX2, as all said in the chat. I believe those are

00:18:38   the ones that everyone and their mother had recommended. Anyway, so I think the AirPods

00:18:43   are probably the best bet because if I ever get up for my desk for like any reason, I

00:18:47   can pop them back in the little Tic Tac holder and that'll probably give me enough juice

00:18:51   to get through the rest of the day. So hopefully Santa or the equivalent, I guess, Hanukkah

00:18:58   Harry if you will, will be good to me this year and maybe I'll come up with a set of

00:19:04   those.

00:19:05   Moving on, last piece of follow-up, and this I think will be a little bit more shared.

00:19:08   A friend of the show, Greg Koenig, had written a post earlier today about why your next iPhone

00:19:14   won't be ceramic.

00:19:16   And if nothing else, it's a great post because it includes a screenshot of one of my favorite

00:19:20   movies of all time, The Hunt for Ed October.

00:19:22   But what Greg goes through in this post is why he thinks that this is probably not going

00:19:28   to be a thing.

00:19:29   And if you don't know Greg, he is, I think, a co-founder or one of just a handful of employees

00:19:34   of Luma Labs, and they make the Luma Loop, which is the camera strap I have on my big

00:19:39   camera as we speak.

00:19:41   And that was not comped.

00:19:42   Well, it was a gift, but it was from family.

00:19:45   So somebody paid actual money for it.

00:19:47   It's really great.

00:19:48   I love that thing.

00:19:49   And so Greg manufactures stuff for a living.

00:19:50   That's what he does.

00:19:52   And his point, which he had a very long essay and it's worth reading every bit of it, but

00:19:57   if I were to quickly distill it down, he said, "Apple is a hardware company and machined

00:20:01   aluminum is their primary platform.

00:20:03   At peak production, Apple is manufacturing roughly a million iPhones a day."

00:20:07   So for Apple to bring a whole new long cycle time process online, the sort of thing that

00:20:12   ceramic would require, they would need warehouses with tens of thousands, or excuse me, thousands

00:20:17   of machines already squared away and ready to rock with thousands more machines being

00:20:22   built. The machines that are building the iPhones, there would need to be thousands

00:20:26   of those. And there would probably need to be, those machines would be needing to be

00:20:30   built to add to the collection that's already ready to rock. So in his perspective, there's

00:20:36   no freaking way this is going to happen anytime soon. And it's really worth reading all of

00:20:40   it because I am way oversimplifying it. But you should check it out. We'll put it in the

00:20:44   show notes.

00:20:45   Also it's like in order to get the machines and tooling

00:20:49   and everything set up to produce ceramic iPhone cases

00:20:53   at the scale needed to produce enough iPhones

00:20:56   to meet demand, they could theoretically do it,

00:21:00   but not only would it be like way, way, way more machines

00:21:03   and space and money and people than what they have now,

00:21:06   but the gist of it was like if they were even preparing

00:21:09   for that, you couldn't hide that amount of investment

00:21:12   and effort, like that would take years to build up

00:21:15   if they were gonna do it.

00:21:16   And you would see that.

00:21:18   You would see people talking about it,

00:21:19   noticing it in expenditures.

00:21:21   You'd see sources in the supply chain talking about it

00:21:23   and leaking information or Apple acquiring companies

00:21:26   or staffing up in certain ways.

00:21:27   Basically it's like it would be such a massive undertaking

00:21:31   and just like stuff, money, and people

00:21:33   that they really couldn't hide it.

00:21:35   - They're disguising it as a car development program.

00:21:37   (laughing)

00:21:39   You think all those billions of dollars

00:21:40   are gonna make it a car?

00:21:41   Who would believe that?

00:21:42   Anyway.

00:21:43   So for the past, I think for the past, for a long time now, I think, Apple has to have

00:21:48   been internally looking for their next material after machined aluminum.

00:21:53   Because the machined aluminum age began with the MacBook Air, the aluminum age began slightly

00:21:58   before that, but once they settled on the machined aluminum, they had a nice situation

00:22:03   where so many things they made started as a block of aluminum and these computer-controlled

00:22:08   milling machines would carve out what they wanted.

00:22:12   They do that for so many products and that's good because then you've got

00:22:15   Sort of a solid thing to invest in a thing to become good at they buy all these machines the machines get faster so on

00:22:22   And so forth the part of the thing that Greg was talking about in the post is exactly how long does it take to go?

00:22:27   from raw material to a part and ceramic takes longer than machining aluminum because you got to do the whole

00:22:33   baking process or molding and all sorts of other stuff and anyway

00:22:38   Looking for the next material. There's a lot of research in that like oh, I mentioned last show carbon fiber

00:22:44   some kind of ceramic different things with plastics I

00:22:47   Don't think they've found what their next thing is going to be but surely they are looking for it because they're looking for something

00:22:53   That is like a net win over aluminum. It was pretty great

00:22:58   It has something some good things go for it. It moves away heat

00:23:02   It's easy to machine to high tolerances that you know that it's sort of a known quantity

00:23:07   They can mess with the formulation of the aluminum as Greg points out and not have to replace the machines

00:23:12   Right because they can all still mill they're going to change from six thousand six thousand to seven thousand series aluminum

00:23:17   They could still use all the same machines

00:23:19   But it's got downsides too. It's not radio transparent it bends

00:23:23   Scratchability if you're gonna have a high gloss finish they haven't sorted that out or whatever. So anyway, I

00:23:28   Feel like during all this time and when we're in this aluminum and glass age Apple has to be looking for what the next thing

00:23:34   is eventually presumably they'll find it and

00:23:37   And when they do find it, there is going to be, you know,

00:23:40   a long ramp up into switching over.

00:23:44   I don't think, you know, as this thing points out, if what he's saying

00:23:46   about the time required to manufacture it,

00:23:48   I don't think they can use ceramic unless they solve that problem.

00:23:52   Because time is one of the problems they can't really fix, right?

00:23:55   So if they decided some kind of ceramic combined with some other material,

00:24:00   like ceramic, like he says at the end, ceramic at the outside or something else

00:24:03   inside. If they decided this was the thing because it has more desirable qualities, they have to get

00:24:08   it down to the point where they can manufacture it as quickly and easily as aluminum or within

00:24:13   that ballpark because they're not going to go backwards by like a 2x or 10x manufacturing time,

00:24:17   they just can't sustain that. And I think he's right that if they have made that decision,

00:24:22   there's going to be such a long lead time that, you know, we'll all know about it. But

00:24:25   as discussed last week, like the next one's going to be glass. Glass is a thing they already know

00:24:29   about, they already did with the 4 and the 4s, there's glass in the current phones that,

00:24:32   you know, whatever. That's the rumor. It's not a big change. They've done it before. It's an

00:24:37   existing material. If they were going to do anything with ceramic and the watch was a trial

00:24:42   run, don't even think about it until like after you have two rounds of this glass phone, the

00:24:47   whatever and the whatever S or you know, actually, we're totally off the rhythm now because they kept

00:24:50   the stupid phone the same and realize this is not an S generation. It's actually the 7, even though

00:24:56   it looks the same as the 6s. Anyway, we're all confused now. But yeah, I still think that

00:25:01   somewhere out there in our future is Apple's next material. I remember the liquid metal rumors,

00:25:06   he mentions them as well. They bought that liquid metal company and they had, you know,

00:25:09   they made the sim, I think they made the sim extractor tool have liquid metal. Not really a big

00:25:14   return on investment for that company, but that was another possibility. Can we, can we make,

00:25:18   can we like injection mold metal and come out with a part that has all the fine details already on it

00:25:24   because it's liquid metal and it flows in. It's like plastic, but you get, you know, anyway,

00:25:29   none of those things have won yet. I think the ceramic watch tells us that of all the possible

00:25:34   future materials maybe ceramic had enough promise to say well even if we've eliminated it as a

00:25:40   possibility for our phone we can make a cool watch out of it because as Marco pointed out it's not

00:25:45   an unknown material in the watch world and you know they can give it a try. But the the requirements

00:25:52   for a successor to aluminum on the phone are pretty stringent. And it could be that we

00:25:59   have to go through a whole series of generations of this glass phone before we even look at,

00:26:05   you know, carbon fiber or plastic that doesn't look like plastic or whatever else they're

00:26:10   going to do.

00:26:11   So speaking of phones, have you made it to the Apple Store? I don't recall.

00:26:15   I still have not. I'm solo parenting again, so like I just haven't had time to be running

00:26:21   around and going to stores, I still have not actually made it to the Apple store.

00:26:23   I think I'm going to eventually because my wife is finally starting to look at like watches

00:26:28   and bands and stuff and complaining about the combinations that she would like to exist

00:26:32   that don't and complaining about the sport band colors that seem not to exist anymore.

00:26:36   And so on.

00:26:37   Anyway, that probably means I'm going to end up in an Apple store at some point with her

00:26:41   looking at watches.

00:26:42   And that's probably what will get me there to mess with the phone.

00:26:45   Fair enough.

00:26:46   Fair enough. I'm curious to hear what you think after you go and do it.

00:26:50   So my coworker Jamie has a Jet Black. I have a matte black.

00:26:55   Every time I look at my matte black, I am convinced that it is,

00:27:00   I think in my personal estimation, my favorite iPhone ever. I just think it

00:27:04   looks amazing. And I love it to death. And then for some

00:27:08   reason or another, I'll grab Jamie's phone and then I'll wish

00:27:12   so badly that it was even a half as tacky, as sticky

00:27:16   as Jamie's phone is, 'cause man,

00:27:18   that jet black is so nice to hold.

00:27:20   I still prefer the aesthetics of the matte,

00:27:22   but gosh, that jet black is so nice to hold.

00:27:25   - Have you considered pine tar?

00:27:27   - Yeah, that might be the fix, right?

00:27:28   - I'll tell you what too, so now that we're a few weeks in,

00:27:31   my jet black one, you know how many times

00:27:34   I've looked at the back?

00:27:35   Zero.

00:27:36   I looked this morning, it was upside down on the bib

00:27:39   I was doing, I was getting dressed, and I noticed,

00:27:41   I'm like, you know, how does the back look now

00:27:43   after a few weeks of use?

00:27:45   And I look and it's like,

00:27:46   there's like three fingerprints on it,

00:27:48   but it's not that bad.

00:27:49   And like I hadn't just wiped it off or anything,

00:27:51   this was just like organic discovery

00:27:52   of the back of this phone in the wild.

00:27:54   (laughs)

00:27:55   And like, there were a few fingerprints on it,

00:27:57   and that's fine, and there's a few small scratches

00:27:59   that you can see in certain light,

00:28:01   and they're fine too, and it doesn't matter at all.

00:28:03   But every single time I pick it up and hold it,

00:28:05   which is constantly during the day,

00:28:07   I am so glad it feels as good as it does.

00:28:10   Yeah, yeah, I can understand that. I don't know. It's a tough call. I think to be honest jet black or or matte black

00:28:16   It's kind of a win-win. I mean because I think the jet black absolutely wins on on comfort

00:28:21   I think the matte black wins on

00:28:23   Aesthetics personally, although it's a close call

00:28:25   So it's a win-win no matter how you slice it. Yeah, I'd agree with that

00:28:28   Before we move on from the materials that your phone is made of assuming the glass roomers are true and they do the glass thing

00:28:34   What do you guys think is the most likely successor material to aluminum and glass?

00:28:39   - Oh golly.

00:28:41   - Like after that?

00:28:42   - Yeah, like after whatever this next one is,

00:28:45   however long the glass era lasts,

00:28:47   assuming the rumors are true.

00:28:48   Because I have to think that Apple continues

00:28:51   to look for the next material

00:28:53   and they will find that eventually it's not going

00:28:55   to be aluminum and glass forever and ever.

00:28:58   - I don't think we can say for sure,

00:29:00   I mean on an infinite time scale,

00:29:01   but I don't think we can say for sure

00:29:02   that they necessarily have to replace aluminum.

00:29:06   I mean there are certain things in the world

00:29:08   that just end up being made of certain materials

00:29:10   for a very, very long time, just because that makes sense

00:29:13   for physical characteristics or for manufacturing ease

00:29:17   or for cost or availability or scale or whatever else.

00:29:20   Like there are certain things that always end up

00:29:21   being made of that material.

00:29:22   Like airplanes are made of aluminum

00:29:24   because there's lots of reasons for that

00:29:26   and like that's, like there's nothing saying

00:29:28   that that's gonna replace aluminum for airplanes

00:29:30   unless there is, please airplane nerds don't tell me.

00:29:33   Let me believe one thing.

00:29:34   But you know--

00:29:35   - I mean there is, like your airplane example

00:29:37   good one because for a long time, airplanes were made of metal until people started working carbon

00:29:42   fiber into airplanes, into actual airplanes that, you know, like, and so that it's not like they're

00:29:47   all made of carbon fiber now, but that became a viable material for important parts of airplanes,

00:29:52   whereas, you know, in the beginning of our parents' lives that never here didn't even exist,

00:29:55   it wasn't using airplanes at all. And aviation is really slow to adopt new materials, but slowly but

00:30:01   surely, basically over the course of our entire life, suddenly carbon fiber is part of the formula

00:30:06   of making up a plane. I think phones are less conservative than airplanes, and especially since

00:30:12   airplanes have the constraint that they have to transport something, otherwise why they even

00:30:20   exist, whether it's people or cargo, right? But phones, the form factor of a phone,

00:30:24   I mean, in some respects, until it is sending images directly into our brain, it has to have

00:30:30   something that we can look at, assuming we don't go to glasses or something. But everything else

00:30:34   about it, it's kind of up for grabs. Aluminum, if the electronics for a phone fit into something,

00:30:43   the thickness of a credit card, aluminum is not the material for you. Because once you get to

00:30:48   the thickness of a credit card, you can't make that out of aluminum anymore, because it will

00:30:52   bend and stay bent. And so it's a non-starter period, you cannot do it out of aluminum.

00:30:57   If we get to that in our lifetime, which I think is reasonable, we'll be old men, but you can keep

00:31:03   keep making these things thinner and smaller and lighter weight and new screen technology

00:31:08   and so on and so forth, we can get them pretty thin. And once they get to a certain thinness,

00:31:12   you can't use aluminum anymore. And then you probably don't want to use glass because it's

00:31:17   just too fragile. So you have to go to a material that's bendy and bounces back. And you'd probably

00:31:23   want to also go to something that's lighter. It's reasonable to say though, that you could

00:31:29   say in the next 20 years it's aluminum glass, that's it. Or just glass and whatever they

00:31:33   sandwich between it. Is that what you're saying? You can't envision anything in the next like

00:31:37   20 years or so that's not aluminum glass or some combination?

00:31:40   I mean, I don't really know enough about materials and the science behind them and the status

00:31:45   of current technologies. Like carbon fiber is a great example. That might be it, I don't

00:31:49   know. I know carbon fiber is, right now it's not used in mass quantities in a lot of places

00:31:56   because of various like newness and cost issues and things like that but I don't know enough

00:32:00   about it to know whether that's likely to be overcome in the next few years. I really

00:32:05   don't know. Carbon fiber I think would have many of the same advantages of ceramic in

00:32:10   that I assume it's radio transparent. I assume it can be very thin and light and strong based

00:32:16   on the little I know about it. So it seems like it could be really cool but I don't know

00:32:20   if they can make enough of it. I mean if you think about like where you might see it first

00:32:24   Certainly the iPhone is a very high profit,

00:32:29   very high profile, prestigious device,

00:32:32   but it wouldn't surprise me if you saw carbon fiber

00:32:35   first appear in something lower volume

00:32:37   that could maybe sell for even more,

00:32:38   maybe a MacBook Pro.

00:32:40   Like maybe you see a MacBook Pro lid casing

00:32:43   or bottom casing or maybe even the entire case

00:32:46   made of carbon fiber, I have no idea.

00:32:48   But that would be a place where like

00:32:50   you could actually really use more of a weight savings

00:32:53   and you could charge more and have more of a profit margin

00:32:55   to kind of cover the cost of it,

00:32:57   and you wouldn't need to make as many of them

00:32:59   as you would make with the iPhone.

00:33:00   So I think if they're gonna use something like carbon fiber,

00:33:02   we're probably gonna see it first somewhere else,

00:33:05   not in the phone, but I really have no idea.

00:33:09   - Yeah, I was gonna say carbon fiber as well,

00:33:11   but I am not confident in that idea,

00:33:14   because I thought that carbon fiber's

00:33:17   just a nightmare to work with,

00:33:19   and doesn't it like splinter really badly?

00:33:22   or maybe I guess that's fiberglass,

00:33:23   which I am not recommending, I'm just saying.

00:33:26   I just thought it was a nightmare to work with.

00:33:27   - I think carbon fiber does shatter though.

00:33:29   Isn't that one of the problems at hand?

00:33:31   - Maybe that's it.

00:33:32   Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting thought exercise for sure,

00:33:35   but I think this is three blind men leading themselves

00:33:38   around in a circle.

00:33:39   (laughing)

00:33:40   You know, I don't, like Marco said,

00:33:42   I don't know anything about materials really,

00:33:44   so I'm not sure what's even reasonable.

00:33:46   What would you say, John?

00:33:47   - I basically agree with all the things

00:33:49   that you touched on.

00:33:50   Like I was thinking the exact same thing as Marco,

00:33:51   in terms of like, that's why I was getting it

00:33:54   with the credit card type thing.

00:33:56   Aluminum is great, right up to the point

00:33:57   where you start reaching a certain minimum thinness

00:34:00   and then you have the bending problem, right?

00:34:02   'Cause aluminum is not all about springing back.

00:34:05   And we have a good analogy in the car industry

00:34:10   where for many, many years, cars were made of steel

00:34:14   and then more exotic cars incorporated aluminum parts

00:34:16   which were weird and harder to manufacture.

00:34:18   Don't you remember like when we were kids,

00:34:19   like Audi had aluminum cars and it was like,

00:34:21   but those are a nightmare to do body work on because everyone knows how to do steel and aluminum is harder to work with and

00:34:26   all the sorts of reasons that like

00:34:28   You know mechanics and body repair people will tell you that aluminum cars are pain in the butt

00:34:32   Fast forward to today aluminum is everywhere. It is trickling down the car line. It's not just on exotic supercars anymore

00:34:39   What's on exotic supercars these days?

00:34:41   It's not supercars are essentially entirely made out of carbon fiber like that that konas egg one has carbon fiber wheels for crying out loud

00:34:47   like

00:34:47   And you say okay, that's fine for carbon fiber for exotic cars, but carbon fiber just like aluminum before it

00:34:52   But I feel like we'll be trickling down and like you said on cars very often especially on very expensive fancy cars

00:34:58   It'll be aluminum and steel, but on the lightweight model they will replace

00:35:04   Certain parts with carbon fiber very often the roof the hood things that are thin not really load-bearing

00:35:11   But very large like Marco was saying with the back of a MacBook Pro

00:35:14   and

00:35:15   I mean cars you're not supposed to touch them to anything so they shouldn't be bending but

00:35:18   Macbooks if they make them really thin like think of the current MacBook

00:35:23   that's starting to push the limits of

00:35:25   bendiness if you want to go much thinner and you probably will be able to considering like that the iPhone is probably faster than the

00:35:31   Current MacBook and the iPhone is a really small that a 10 is really small

00:35:34   If you want to go much thinner and you want to make a more lightweight version of that

00:35:39   That's more resilient making the top case of a MacBook Pro out of carbon fiber starts to make sense

00:35:44   And because carbon fiber, I think, is inevitably going to trickle down the automotive ladder

00:35:48   in our lifetime, it's just the way the industry goes, there will be an ever-increasing expertise

00:35:54   in dealing with and manufacturing carbon fiber.

00:35:57   So that's my number one pick for the successor because things will get thinner, it has the

00:36:02   advantage of radio transparency, it's really light, it's really strong.

00:36:05   The difficulty is you can't like machine-find details into it.

00:36:08   It's more of a pain to deal with, but like, hoping that the rest of the manufacturing

00:36:14   industry, starting with aviation and supercars and coming down to regular cars or whatever,

00:36:18   will start to work out the details of a carbon fiber manufacturing process that makes it

00:36:22   viable in a way that it is not now, that makes it viable for manufacturing phones.

00:36:28   Although the chatroom says carbon fiber is not radio transparent.

00:36:30   So I don't know.

00:36:31   That may be another thing that they can tackle.

00:36:34   They could always just have antenna lines smoothly etched into the carbon fiber like

00:36:38   they do with the aluminum today.

00:36:39   But anyway.

00:36:40   There we go.

00:36:41   Ceramic antenna lines inside a carbon fiber plate.

00:36:44   Yeah.

00:36:45   Problem solved.

00:36:46   Ceramic, the reason we were even talking about that is because Apple introduced this really

00:36:49   shiny phone that scratches really easily.

00:36:51   And we're like, "Oh, well, it would be nice if it could be smooth, but also not scratchy."

00:36:55   And then that's how we get into the whole carbon fiber thing.

00:36:57   Oh, carbon fiber shatters in chips and so on and so forth.

00:37:02   All these different properties, I feel like, within the realm of metals and ceramic and

00:37:07   even plastics.

00:37:08   That's my second pick, by the way.

00:37:09   Carbon fiber is my exciting pick.

00:37:10   My boring pick is, as you get really, really thin, you know what?

00:37:14   For something the size of a phone, not necessarily the size of a laptop, or something the size

00:37:18   of a phone, maybe not the big phone.

00:37:21   Plastic has a lot of desirable qualities.

00:37:25   Plastic, we know all about plastic.

00:37:27   It scratches more easily than the hard metals.

00:37:29   It will shatter eventually, but it bends and springs back and can take a beating.

00:37:34   And you've still got the problem of the screen floating out there.

00:37:36   We haven't even been talking about that.

00:37:37   We're mostly just talking about the back of the thing.

00:37:38   I don't see anything other than glass for the front of the thing until the whole thing

00:37:41   is a bendy piece of plastic and then you can't have it be glass at all because the whole

00:37:45   thing is like, you could roll it up or whatever and you can't make that out of glass and then

00:37:49   we just have to accept that it's plastic and they're so cheap that if you get it scratched

00:37:53   up you just go to the Apple store and they give you a new one for 50 bucks or something.

00:37:58   But we'll all be dead then, so don't worry about it.

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00:39:14   Betterment investing made better.

00:39:19   There's been a brouhaha.

00:39:21   There's been a kerfuffle.

00:39:23   There's been, I'm out of adjectives.

00:39:25   So there's been a thing.

00:39:27   And Apple and an independent developer are kind of sort of duking it out.

00:39:33   And that's not usually happy for anyone involved, and particularly for those watching from the

00:39:38   sidelines, because oftentimes this has pretty big implications on your own business.

00:39:46   So I'm trying to think, there's so many angles to this story, and I'm trying to figure out

00:39:52   the best way to summarize.

00:39:53   and we'll put links in the show notes to MJ Sai's summary post.

00:39:57   There's two of them and they're really good, Michael Sai's.

00:40:02   But the super, super quick version, and then we'll add details in a moment, is that this

00:40:08   gentleman, Bogdan, and I don't have his last name in front of me, but anyway.

00:40:13   But Pescu.

00:40:14   He had released many apps, maybe, but certainly, undisputedly, was the author of an app called

00:40:19   Dash, which I actually haven't used, which is probably criminal because from everything

00:40:23   missing out. From everything I've ever heard, it is phenomenal. And I don't say that sarcastically.

00:40:28   What do you use? The built-in Xcode documentation like an animal?

00:40:30   No, Safari usually, because I don't trust the built-in stuff search abilities. But anyway,

00:40:35   I, again... Good socks.

00:40:37   Well, yeah. So I will be the first to admit I am missing out on this. And again, I am

00:40:42   not trying to be sarcastic. Genuinely, from everything I've ever heard from anyone who

00:40:46   has ever touched Dash, it is phenomenal. Well, all of a sudden, his developer account got

00:40:51   shut down, maybe. That's a little bit up for debate. But all of a sudden gets shut down,

00:40:56   he kind of tries to talk to Apple, doesn't really get a lot of information out of them,

00:41:00   eventually starts posting about it, so now people, other independent developers like

00:41:05   Marco for example, are starting to say, "Hey, this doesn't feel right, what's going on here?"

00:41:10   Eventually he gets in contact with Apple, things seem to be making forward progress,

00:41:15   then Apple goes to the press and says, "Well, he's getting booted from the App Store because

00:41:20   he's done some really nefarious stuff. Meanwhile, Bogdan is thinking, "Well, I thought we were

00:41:27   still in the midst of a dialogue. What's going on here?" So then he escalates and writes

00:41:32   his own post. Again, links will be in the show notes. He writes his own post that includes,

00:41:36   among other things, a roughly 10-minute phone call, recording of a 10-minute phone call

00:41:40   between him and an Apple representative, which I'm not sure that was the most morally sound

00:41:48   choice but I can understand why I did it. And then since all this has happened, the

00:41:54   armchair archaeologists have been digging into what's going on and whether or not things

00:42:02   are awry. Because it seems to be that the disconnect is, there were two accounts that

00:42:08   were linked in some way, shape, or form. The method of that link and how tenuous that link

00:42:15   was is up for debate, but it seems clear that there is absolutely a link between two different

00:42:20   developer accounts.

00:42:22   And one of the accounts, it seems like everyone involved isn't debating that it was involved

00:42:29   in some kind of shady practices.

00:42:31   Trying to buy good reviews for their own apps, trying to put bad reviews for competitors'

00:42:36   apps, and just generally being shady.

00:42:40   Now Bogdan's perspective is, "Hey, I opened that account for a relative of mine.

00:42:44   I did it using my credit card because in other countries having a credit card isn't necessarily a given, like it sort of is in America.

00:42:52   And after that I walked away. They're the ones that are doing all this nefarious terrible things.

00:42:58   I'm not. I'm just collateral damage here and that's not fair.

00:43:02   So there was some back and forth, like I said, between Apple and he...

00:43:06   Apple apparently wanted him to write a blog post saying basically,

00:43:11   "Hey, Apple just got confused, but we've straightened it out. It's all good now."

00:43:18   And then he allegedly would have been allowed to get back in the App Store.

00:43:22   This is before he escalated with the phone call, and I believe before Apple escalated by going to the press.

00:43:28   So, there's a lot of other avenues here. The armchair archaeologist seemed to have found a lot of different ways that point to all the shady apps actually having been him as well, and not some other relative.

00:43:40   and we can go into that if need be.

00:43:43   But this is one of those situations where

00:43:46   everyone seems wrong, everyone seems right,

00:43:48   and nobody's clear what the real story is,

00:43:51   which makes it very interesting.

00:43:53   And many people have joked that maybe

00:43:55   Serial Season 3 will be about this.

00:43:57   (laughing)

00:43:58   But it's hard to make heads or tails of it.

00:44:02   And I'm not sure if I had to choose sides, who I side with.

00:44:07   And I think the reality of the situation is

00:44:10   I kind of side with both and side with neither all at once, which I know is kind of a cop-out,

00:44:14   but that's really how I feel. So let's start by asking, before we get into our opinions

00:44:19   about this, is that a relatively okay summary? Did I miss any really important points?

00:44:25   I think you got it. I mean, I think your characterization of what Apple wanted him to do in that blog

00:44:29   post is not quite there, but close enough.

00:44:32   All right, Jon, any other thoughts?

00:44:34   I was going to say, some of the—it's not clear—we have the rough timeline of events

00:44:43   from the outside, but because Apple is so tight-lipped about everything, I still feel

00:44:50   like we don't really have their side of the story, and they're never going to give it

00:44:53   to us, right?

00:44:54   So it's kind of like we have the black hole that is Apple, and then we have a leak of

00:44:59   their private communications with this recording, and then we have the discussion from the developer.

00:45:04   Apple's not going to, for instance, like you characterized,

00:45:07   where I was like, "Oh, then Apple went to the press

00:45:08   with this thing that said this thing."

00:45:10   Like, we have no idea if that statement was written

00:45:15   and distributed through the bureaucracy

00:45:17   before that call even took place.

00:45:18   And Apple's not going to clarify.

00:45:19   They're not gonna go, "Oh, by the way,

00:45:20   you may think you've heard this, but really, actually,

00:45:22   they're not gonna tell us."

00:45:24   It's like none of our business,

00:45:25   what goes on inside their company.

00:45:26   And also, I feel like the communication,

00:45:29   their public communication to all the different sites,

00:45:33   if you look at it, my recollection is that it basically,

00:45:36   it doesn't tell you the details to let you know

00:45:38   all the nuances that the developer's blog post went into,

00:45:43   but it also doesn't say anything that is false

00:45:46   from the perspective of Apple with their terminology,

00:45:49   which I'm sure we'll get into later.

00:45:50   Like from Apple's perspective, this is their rule system,

00:45:53   these are the set of rules,

00:45:54   they matched on this particular set of behavior,

00:45:56   they took this action, and that's what they're distributing.

00:46:00   And Apple was basically putting that out

00:46:02   in response to the original kerfuffle about, "Oh no, a developer is getting squished again."

00:46:07   And so I would say that it's difficult to know Apple's side of the story. We can get the

00:46:13   developer's side because the developer not only is free to say whatever he wants to the public,

00:46:18   but seems very willing to say and do whatever he feels like the public, which is fine, but

00:46:23   Apple is totally unwilling to do that. So I still feel like we are all at a disadvantage on the

00:46:27   outside in terms of knowing what the real deal is. Yeah.

00:46:31   I mean, I think trying to figure out all the details

00:46:34   of what happened is not productive for any of us,

00:46:38   possibly even them, because we weren't there,

00:46:41   these are private communications for the most part,

00:46:44   we have seen very little of them.

00:46:45   We don't really know this developer well,

00:46:49   we use his app, but none of us know him

00:46:52   to know for sure how complete he's probably being,

00:46:55   who knows?

00:46:56   And we also don't know if Apple's being complete

00:46:59   and truthful in their statements.

00:47:00   we have no way to evaluate these really.

00:47:03   So all we can really do is try to judge this,

00:47:06   or first we can just ignore it, which is one valid option.

00:47:10   I think the community's initial reaction of,

00:47:15   hey, this looks like a mistake, 'cause this app,

00:47:17   before we knew about the second account

00:47:19   with all the other crazy apps,

00:47:20   we're like, this app is really good

00:47:22   and has lots of legitimate five-star reviews.

00:47:25   What need would this person have to buy fake reviews

00:47:29   or to get suspended?

00:47:30   It seemed ridiculous, and so we were all yelling last week on Twitter, "Hey, this doesn't

00:47:34   look right.

00:47:35   Can somebody at Apple look into this again or explain this?"

00:47:38   That was the main gist of everyone's demands last week when this blew up.

00:47:41   Well, the reason anyone was talking about it all is because he made an initial blog

00:47:45   post that said, "You might be wondering what happened to the Dash.

00:47:48   Here's the deal.

00:47:49   I'm not sure what's going on, but they said my account is pulled and I can't appeal the

00:47:52   process."

00:47:53   So that's why we knew about it all, because he went to the public and said to explain

00:47:58   why his apps are suddenly not available, right? Because people use his app and it's popular.

00:48:03   And that's the main thing I think we can take away from this entire thing is how the Apple

00:48:09   developer community reacts to it. Because this reaction doesn't happen in a vacuum,

00:48:15   it's in the context of all the past history. So when we all collectively saw this story

00:48:20   from a developer, and the reason we saw it is because we all are in travel and developer

00:48:24   circles online and read developer blogs and, you know, anyway. When we saw that, because

00:48:29   of the past history of App Store rule enforcement and policies that, you know, that don't seem

00:48:38   right to developers, or, you know, the history of conflict, the history of arbitrary decisions

00:48:44   that don't make any sense or that are punitive to developers in ways they shouldn't be or,

00:48:49   honest mistakes or whatever, that context is why we had this reaction. Because it's not this,

00:48:55   this event is not a thing. This event just highlights, "Hey, how does the Apple developer

00:49:00   community feel about Apple and the App Store at this moment in time? Are they inherently

00:49:03   suspicious? Do they give Apple the benefit of the doubt? Do they give developers?" And like,

00:49:08   it so clearly showed that the current context, despite positive changes, is that we will all

00:49:15   readily believe that the giant faceless bureaucracy that is the Apple App Store can and does do

00:49:24   things that are best case mistakes or worst case, just wrongheaded decisions.

00:49:30   So that I feel like was part of it, Margaret, you're right, is that this is a good app and

00:49:35   we kind of do virtue transfer, application good, therefore developer good, which is not

00:49:40   a valid transfer.

00:49:41   but you're like, it just didn't seem like

00:49:44   if you've got a quality app that people like

00:49:46   that you're known for, what reasons do you have

00:49:49   to cheat on reviews or anything like that,

00:49:50   even before we knew that.

00:49:51   But it just seemed like, all right,

00:49:52   and but I really think the most important thing

00:49:55   is that Apple's takeaway from this is that

00:49:57   people, developers still don't trust

00:50:01   that we are going to do the right thing

00:50:04   and that when they see anything that even looks like

00:50:06   one of those past situations where we've been in the wrong

00:50:08   or done something that was not productive,

00:50:11   they will immediately believe it.

00:50:12   So that, you know, they'll know they have made progress

00:50:15   when a similar event happens and the reaction

00:50:19   from the developer community is not immediate suspicion

00:50:21   that Apple has screwed a small developer again.

00:50:24   - Yeah, and I think, you know, to Apple's credit though,

00:50:28   this ability to totally terminate somebody's developer

00:50:32   account is probably used every day for lots of different

00:50:37   fraudulent accounts that are trying, that are, you know,

00:50:39   or conducting fraud or spam or scams or something like that,

00:50:43   they probably terminate developer accounts every day.

00:50:46   And I can't think, I mean, maybe I'm wrong,

00:50:48   please let me know if I'm wrong,

00:50:50   I can't remember a single previous instance

00:50:52   in the eight years of the App Store

00:50:54   where it seemed like someone's developer account

00:50:56   was terminated wrongly.

00:50:57   Has that ever happened that we learned about?

00:51:00   - Well, I mean, the equivalent is like

00:51:02   we're rejecting your update even though

00:51:04   you've got a crash or for some annoying reason.

00:51:05   Yeah, they didn't terminate your developer account,

00:51:07   But effectively, it's the same thing in terms of--

00:51:10   No, I mean, this is more severe.

00:51:12   This is much more severe.

00:51:13   It is.

00:51:14   But see, the reason I think you don't

00:51:16   see people complaining about termination

00:51:17   is because I think you're right.

00:51:19   The termination happens all the time.

00:51:20   But it happens to known bad actors.

00:51:22   And it's part of the cost of doing business

00:51:24   to known bad actors.

00:51:24   Bad actors get their accounts terminated all the time.

00:51:26   They just open a new one.

00:51:27   That's their business, is open up a new account,

00:51:30   do something against the rules for as long as you can.

00:51:32   When your account gets closed, open up another one.

00:51:35   That's their entire MO.

00:51:37   That's the life cycle of the fraudster on the App Store.

00:51:41   And so of course, they're not going to complain about it.

00:51:42   Why would they?

00:51:43   That's just how the system works from their perspective.

00:51:46   So I think this is just-- the legitimate developers have

00:51:51   the review problems or whatever, and they'll get it shut down.

00:51:54   This looks like a crossover of those two worlds.

00:51:56   The world over there, where no one ever complains,

00:51:58   but everyone knows, yeah, you're going

00:51:59   to get shut down in a week or two,

00:52:00   but sometimes they're slow about it.

00:52:01   You can make a lot of money in the meantime.

00:52:03   And then this world over here where it's like,

00:52:06   historically sometimes Apple will reject

00:52:07   your legitimate application and be frustrating or whatever,

00:52:09   but eventually you'll get through it.

00:52:11   Except for the people who are like,

00:52:13   apps of this type are no longer allowed, period,

00:52:15   and they just have to stop development.

00:52:16   That's also very similar in terms of like,

00:52:18   oh, we don't want you to make launcher apps

00:52:20   for a couple of years,

00:52:21   but I don't know, that's a good example.

00:52:22   But where Apple categorically decides

00:52:24   that this type of application isn't allowed anymore,

00:52:26   even though we had previously allowed it.

00:52:28   But this is like crossing over of,

00:52:31   and it's not that much of a crossover

00:52:32   because there is, like you said, everyone agrees there's some kind of fraudulent activity

00:52:36   on an account somewhere.

00:52:37   The argument is whether that fraudulent activity should mean that this other account gets closed,

00:52:42   right?

00:52:43   So this is the meeting of those worlds.

00:52:45   The only question is, is that meeting, you know, is it legitimate to do collective punishment

00:52:51   because the accounts use the same test devices and the same credit card number, which from

00:52:55   Apple's perspective is the only way they have to tell.

00:52:57   They can't see what's on the other side of the computer, right?

00:52:59   So all they have is data and their data says,

00:53:02   same test devices, same credit card number,

00:53:04   same legal entity.

00:53:05   And from a legal perspective,

00:53:09   not from a practical human perspective,

00:53:10   but from a legal perspective,

00:53:12   that's how the Apple ID system works.

00:53:14   That's how developer thing works.

00:53:16   They want information about you to connect to it,

00:53:19   essentially to connect to an entity that they can sue

00:53:21   or that is legally representing.

00:53:23   And so if you use all the same information

00:53:28   used to establish what the entity is for multiple accounts, it's all the same entity. That's the

00:53:32   whole point of you doing this. If Marco has multiple, don't you have multiple things for

00:53:37   your various... But that's... If they were all separate or combined, that's how things work in

00:53:46   the business world. We don't care what physical person is sitting in front of the thing. They just

00:53:49   care what the legal entity is and where the liability lies. Now, the more human side of it is,

00:53:55   What if you do live in a country where it's not easy to get credit cards and you do a favor for

00:53:59   somebody and you are not a lawyer and not thinking about the fact that now you essentially are

00:54:03   legally vouching for the activities of this other account, right? I think Apple would be entirely in

00:54:08   the right and probably totally in their legalese somewhere that says, "Hey, if you use all the same

00:54:13   legal and contact information from multiple accounts, you are legally responsible."

00:54:17   You've essentially absorbed the liability for this other person. It's as if you started a company

00:54:24   And then, you know, your friend came in and wrote all the code, but then you published it as the

00:54:29   legal entity. You're legally responsible, not your friend. It's like, "Oh, I didn't write all the

00:54:32   code. He did it." It's like, doesn't matter. That's not how the law works, right? For the most part,

00:54:36   I'm not a lawyer. And so, in this situation, Apple probably could have just said, "These are the

00:54:43   rules. This is the data. It is irrefutable. You don't argue it. You know, we all agree on the

00:54:49   facts here. And so, therefore, your account is closed." But that's not what Apple did. What Apple

00:54:54   Apple did instead is tried to communicate with this developer to work things out.

00:54:59   Because there, and here's the next question.

00:55:01   All right, so did Apple work with the developer to try to work things out?

00:55:05   Does, do all of us here in the peanut gallery and the Apple developer community,

00:55:09   do we immediately suspect that the only reason they were working it out is

00:55:12   because this person made a blog post?

00:55:15   >> Well, no, this happened beforehand.

00:55:16   So, so here, well, here's, here's what happened.

00:55:18   And this is, I, I think if I can look at this whole situation, if I can point to,

00:55:22   to two things that I would say were like bad moves.

00:55:26   I think one was Apple's bad move

00:55:28   and one was the developer's bad move.

00:55:30   Apple's bad move was when they first started detecting

00:55:33   all of this fraud on the other account,

00:55:36   they did consider the fraud account

00:55:39   and the Dash account to be logically linked

00:55:41   because they both were made by the same credit card

00:55:43   and they both used some of the same test devices.

00:55:46   So they considered that enough of a correlation

00:55:48   to consider them logically linked.

00:55:50   And I think that alone right there,

00:55:53   considering an account logically linked

00:55:54   for the purpose of fraud detection

00:55:56   based on the same credit card being used

00:55:57   and the same device that's being used,

00:55:59   I think that's a reasonable assumption.

00:56:00   And I think Apple was totally fine to do that.

00:56:02   The error that Apple made that I would say

00:56:05   was probably the one big mistake that is Apple's fault

00:56:09   in the way this was handled

00:56:11   is that when Apple detected the fraud on the other account,

00:56:15   they only contacted that account's email address

00:56:20   to talk about and try to fix the fraud issue.

00:56:23   And so when they were issuing the warnings, basically,

00:56:25   they only contacted the fraud one,

00:56:28   not the other one that was logically linked to it.

00:56:30   - But why do you think that's a mistake?

00:56:32   You think it's a mistake because it seems unfair

00:56:34   or whatever, but I think from, you know,

00:56:37   policy-wise, I think it is a reasonable policy to have

00:56:40   that, you know, the, like, who's responsible

00:56:45   for the actions of the account?

00:56:46   Well, the responsibility of the actions of the account

00:56:48   ties back to whatever legal entity,

00:56:50   you know, as we define it as the information you enter

00:56:52   when you make your Apple ID, right?

00:56:54   If that's their policy,

00:56:56   and then they see fraudulent activity,

00:56:59   and then they also have a policy that says

00:57:00   if there's fraudulent activity,

00:57:02   all of the accounts that are tied

00:57:04   to that same legal entity get shut down,

00:57:06   I don't see anywhere where there's any specific need

00:57:09   to carefully communicate with each one of them

00:57:11   to give each one of the connected legal entities

00:57:14   a chance to explain or something.

00:57:15   That is a nice thing to do,

00:57:17   and we all think they should do it in this case,

00:57:19   but policy-wise, like, you know,

00:57:23   as many people pointed out,

00:57:24   if you get shut down by like PayPal or eBay

00:57:26   or anything like that,

00:57:28   like no one's gonna give you a nice phone call

00:57:29   and ask you to like explain yourself to them or whatever

00:57:32   to make sure everyone gets a separate communication

00:57:34   in case they're separate people.

00:57:35   And so like, it's asking Apple to foresee the situation

00:57:40   as described by the developer

00:57:41   that actually it was two different people

00:57:43   and we were just sharing a credit card

00:57:44   and I had no idea what was going on in this account

00:57:45   for years and so on and so forth, whatever.

00:57:47   But I think it is a reasonable policy for a business to say,

00:57:50   this is just how the rules work.

00:57:52   If you don't like it, you, developer,

00:57:54   have made a mistake by legally vouching for someone,

00:57:58   and you have no idea what they're doing.

00:57:59   They're committing fraud over years.

00:58:00   You have no idea about it.

00:58:01   That's your bad.

00:58:02   That's not our bad.

00:58:03   We can just shut them all down, right?

00:58:04   Now, I was getting back to what we thought about this

00:58:07   when we heard about it is like,

00:58:09   why is someone on the phone,

00:58:11   because we heard the phone call that he put up on,

00:58:13   why is someone on the phone

00:58:14   trying to work it out with this person?

00:58:15   Is it because, it's mostly because, you know,

00:58:18   like do we think it's because this is a popular developer

00:58:22   and it's a developer who's popular with other developers

00:58:24   because they make a developer tool, right?

00:58:26   Is that why someone from Apple is bending over backwards

00:58:30   because you know, what makes this one different

00:58:33   versus if this had just been one of those, you know,

00:58:37   fraud developers who got their account closed or whatever.

00:58:39   You think Apple in all those cases for fraud

00:58:41   is on the phone with each one of them saying,

00:58:42   "Oh, let me hear what you say about it.

00:58:44   Oh, we'll try to get you your account back.

00:58:45   I don't think that's happening.

00:58:47   And the reason we think that is part of the anger

00:58:49   of like the old app review guidelines that were like,

00:58:51   never run to the press, that doesn't help.

00:58:53   Remember that old one that I think they've removed

00:58:55   since we're moved from the guidelines.

00:58:57   That was Steve Jobs style snarky,

00:58:59   we don't like it when you bad math us

00:59:01   in public type of thing.

00:59:02   That's where the root of all of this is coming from.

00:59:05   And the root of this coming like when we see this,

00:59:06   at least me specifically, when I see this,

00:59:08   I think Apple is bending over backwards,

00:59:11   A, because they're trying to be nice,

00:59:13   but B, a little bit, because this person made a blog post

00:59:17   and presented their side of the story

00:59:19   and Apple feels like this is, you know,

00:59:22   they don't like looking bad.

00:59:23   They don't like looking like,

00:59:24   they don't wanna be the bad guy,

00:59:25   but in cases where they do something like close an account

00:59:28   and they just never hear anything about it

00:59:29   and nobody blogs, Apple, you know, feels okay about it.

00:59:32   It's like, I guess we weren't the bad guy.

00:59:33   So like the removing of don't run to the press

00:59:36   is removed partly because it recognizes that like,

00:59:38   that's the only way Apple has to tell

00:59:40   whether something they've done might've been inadvertently

00:59:45   meaner than they would want to be, right?

00:59:48   The only way they can tell is if there's public outcry,

00:59:51   'cause they don't know every single developer or whatever.

00:59:53   Like you can't ask the entire infrastructure at Apple

00:59:57   to know every single app and to know what Dash is

01:00:00   and how popular it is and that this is a good person.

01:00:02   I can't do that for every, it's too much, right?

01:00:04   And so I think this signal, the public outcry

01:00:08   and complaining on Twitter and other developers

01:00:10   looking at it askance and thinking maybe it's something

01:00:12   weird here, is actually an important feature of the system

01:00:15   as it currently exists, quote unquote, working.

01:00:18   And I'm glad that guideline was removed by saying

01:00:20   don't run to the press because I think it's an essential

01:00:21   part of the process at this point.

01:00:23   - Yeah, unfortunately it is.

01:00:25   But anyway, so back to what happened here.

01:00:29   I honestly don't wanna spend a whole lot of time on this

01:00:30   'cause I think it's not very productive.

01:00:32   So I think if we can summarize basically,

01:00:36   I think Apple, I disagree with you on them

01:00:40   and notifying multiple accounts.

01:00:42   I think if they're going to shut down an account

01:00:44   which is a severe action, they should notify it beforehand.

01:00:47   And so after the termination and the first round

01:00:51   of blog posts, somebody from Apple called the developer

01:00:55   and the developer recorded this,

01:00:56   which in California is illegal.

01:00:58   The developer's in Romania where it's legal.

01:01:00   The gist of it was that the Apple guy was trying

01:01:04   very hard to work this out.

01:01:05   You can tell that they wanted to work this out.

01:01:07   Apple wanted to make sure that the correct story,

01:01:11   in their opinion, was told.

01:01:13   So they suggested maybe he could write a blog post.

01:01:16   And they basically wanted two key facts

01:01:20   to be in the blog post.

01:01:21   These accounts were linked,

01:01:22   so Apple was not mistaken to suspend it.

01:01:25   There was fraud in the linked account,

01:01:26   and he was working with Apple to unlink the accounts

01:01:30   and get back on the App Store.

01:01:32   And they went over this back and forth a few times,

01:01:33   and it sounded like the developer was not very happy

01:01:37   about the phrasing of this,

01:01:39   about the part that Apple didn't make a mistake.

01:01:41   And then he says he submitted this draft post,

01:01:44   which he later posted on his website,

01:01:45   he said he submitted that to them.

01:01:47   You could tell on the call though,

01:01:48   that again, there was definitely friction.

01:01:51   He definitely did not seem happy

01:01:53   about what he was being asked to agree to.

01:01:57   And then a few days later, Apple tells the press,

01:02:00   this was indeed justified,

01:02:02   there was lots of fraud on this account,

01:02:03   we tried to work it out with the developer,

01:02:05   but couldn't reach a resolution.

01:02:06   and that's it.

01:02:08   And so I think if you can, if you kind of try to like

01:02:12   connect the dots between those two things,

01:02:14   it seems like he and Apple couldn't agree

01:02:17   on what he was going to, how he was going to present

01:02:20   these facts of the case or how he was going to word things.

01:02:23   It seems like Apple most likely got whatever he submitted

01:02:27   to them, decided this was not going to be resolvable

01:02:31   or was not, basically decided negotiations were over

01:02:34   and this was not going to work out.

01:02:36   and then the statement to the press is basically

01:02:37   them shutting the door.

01:02:39   You know, we're only hearing part of a phone call.

01:02:41   We're not hearing what was before or after

01:02:43   this part of the call.

01:02:44   We're not part of, we don't know any of the communication

01:02:46   that happened separately from this call.

01:02:48   So things could have been more tense and hostile

01:02:51   than what's shown here, and what's shown there

01:02:53   is slightly tense and hostile from the developer.

01:02:56   So I don't know if Apple was in the right or wrong

01:03:01   to close the door on this when they did,

01:03:04   but that certainly seemed like that is what happened.

01:03:07   And based on the two conflicting attitudes

01:03:10   in the phone call, I think that's very likely the case.

01:03:15   That they just decided this was not going to be resolved,

01:03:17   that they were not gonna reach agreement,

01:03:20   because from Apple's point of view,

01:03:23   they wanna make sure that they control the narrative here.

01:03:26   And it was very clear from that recorded call,

01:03:28   from the Apple rep on that call,

01:03:30   Apple wanted to make very sure that everyone knew

01:03:32   that they didn't just like slip up

01:03:34   and suspend an innocent account,

01:03:36   that there was fraud that was linked to this account.

01:03:40   And so they wanted to make very clear

01:03:43   that that was the story that got out,

01:03:44   that the facts were very clear, Apple did not just mess up,

01:03:48   because that would be really bad if they just messed up

01:03:51   and suspended an account that had no connection

01:03:53   to any problems whatsoever,

01:03:55   'cause that is a very severe action.

01:03:56   And clearly, running the App Store in eight years,

01:03:59   and this is the first time we're hearing

01:04:00   of bad developer account suspension,

01:04:02   clearly they do a pretty good job

01:04:04   and they're pretty careful most of the time

01:04:06   when taking that action.

01:04:07   So they clearly wanted to make sure that fact was out there,

01:04:10   that there was indeed real fraud,

01:04:13   it was indeed linked to this account,

01:04:15   and that basically that they were gonna unlink the accounts

01:04:19   and let this developer move forward.

01:04:21   So I think they were actually being very reasonable there,

01:04:24   and through whatever reason,

01:04:26   whether it was communication or attitudes

01:04:28   or whatever it was, they couldn't work it out.

01:04:31   And that sucks.

01:04:32   And there was a good post today on,

01:04:35   that Rene Ritchie wrote, I think, on iMore,

01:04:37   that was basically like, how do we move forward from here?

01:04:40   And the gist of it was basically like,

01:04:43   look, we all know the facts now,

01:04:44   like let's just, like Apple should just reactivate,

01:04:47   hit the good account, just reactivate that account.

01:04:49   Like that's how we move forward,

01:04:50   is like everyone basically suck it up,

01:04:53   stop talking about it, and just reactivate the account,

01:04:54   because that's best for everybody.

01:04:55   'Cause like the other side of this is like,

01:04:57   This is a great app and it's out of the store

01:05:00   for this reason that probably shouldn't have happened

01:05:03   or at least this app and this account

01:05:06   probably didn't deserve it,

01:05:07   assuming the developer's telling the truth

01:05:08   and this was some relative and not just him

01:05:10   with a different account.

01:05:12   And secondly, this really sucks for the customers

01:05:14   of this app because if you bought this app like I did

01:05:16   in the Mac App Store, you can't even redownload it.

01:05:19   Like when the developer account is suspended,

01:05:21   the app is gone.

01:05:22   It doesn't show up in your purchases tab,

01:05:24   it doesn't show up in searches, it is gone.

01:05:26   you can't redownload it.

01:05:28   And that sucks if you bought it.

01:05:30   So it does kinda suck the way things are left now,

01:05:34   even though I can look back at what Apple did,

01:05:37   and I think Apple was in the right based on just

01:05:41   the little bit that we can know

01:05:44   and the little bits and pieces that you can pick up.

01:05:47   I think Apple did pretty much the right thing

01:05:48   the whole way through here, with the exception of

01:05:50   not notifying all the accounts before termination,

01:05:52   but besides that, I think Apple was in the right,

01:05:54   and they seemed to handle it very well.

01:05:56   and they seemed to put in way more effort.

01:05:58   I mean, the guy on the phone was saying

01:06:00   that Phil Schiller was personally involved

01:06:02   in trying to get this solved, and I believe that.

01:06:04   Knowing the way these things work, I believe that.

01:06:07   And so the fact that you could have somebody

01:06:09   like Phil Schiller trying to get this fixed

01:06:11   and Apple devising this way that they can resolve this

01:06:13   and get back in the store and presenting it to the developer

01:06:16   that sounded very reasonable, it really did seem

01:06:19   like Apple was going above and beyond

01:06:21   to try to fix this, and they really didn't need to.

01:06:24   It's nice that they did, and I hope

01:06:26   that if I ever am on the wrong end of this,

01:06:27   I hope they do the same thing for me.

01:06:29   But it's really, really above and beyond.

01:06:31   They didn't have to do this.

01:06:32   They didn't have to give this guy away back in.

01:06:34   They didn't have to call him and offer this kind of,

01:06:37   you know, this kind of like olive branch,

01:06:39   and say, all right, look, if you can just agree

01:06:41   to these few statements, then you can get back in.

01:06:43   But they didn't need to do any of that,

01:06:44   and they did it all.

01:06:45   They really obviously wanted to solve this in a decent way.

01:06:49   And again, through whatever reason,

01:06:52   they could not reach agreement with the developer

01:06:55   on something that I think, honestly,

01:06:58   I think the developer made a huge mistake

01:06:59   in the way that he handled that,

01:07:00   and I think he should have just said

01:07:02   what they wanted him to say

01:07:03   because it wasn't bad or incorrect.

01:07:06   - So from outside of this, again, looking at like,

01:07:08   oh, when we all heard the story, what did we all think,

01:07:10   and what does that say about how we view Apple?

01:07:13   Now, sort of at the conclusion of this,

01:07:15   I think Apple kind of got a positive result here,

01:07:20   because in the beginning, we're all like,

01:07:24   oh, Apple's doing something bad in the App Store again.

01:07:26   And we've seen that story so many times

01:07:28   and we're immediately suspicious, right?

01:07:29   By the end of it, especially for any developer

01:07:32   who was paying enough attention to like read all the details

01:07:35   that we just discussed and read the blog post,

01:07:36   by the end of it, I think most legitimate developers

01:07:40   come away thinking, if this happens to me,

01:07:44   it seems like Apple will give me a legitimate chance.

01:07:48   Because first of all, I think most developers understand

01:07:53   that the developer made a mistake here.

01:07:57   Like not a mistake, but like that essentially

01:07:58   by tying himself legally to the other account,

01:08:02   he is essentially responsible for it, right?

01:08:05   And I'm hoping that most developers would understand that.

01:08:08   Like that if you use your credit card number

01:08:10   and your test device, maybe that's not obvious to anybody,

01:08:12   but after the story, I guess it is.

01:08:14   So maybe before the story you could say no,

01:08:15   but now understanding that like,

01:08:17   you know, you see that they were tied to that.

01:08:19   And yet, despite that, Apple made an effort

01:08:23   to try to make things right.

01:08:25   And I think that whole thing is comforting to developers

01:08:29   who feel like, you know, legitimate developers

01:08:31   who would never do anything wrong like that.

01:08:33   But they're like, if I find myself in this situation

01:08:36   where I have unintentionally gotten myself entangled

01:08:39   in the way that I did, either I didn't understand

01:08:41   or I trusted somebody that I should never trust,

01:08:42   which you know, this happens to everybody, right?

01:08:45   Will I just be SOL or will Apple be reasonable with me?

01:08:51   And with the exception of the fact that it's not clear

01:08:54   that Apple would have been engaged at all

01:08:56   if he hadn't quote unquote run to the press,

01:08:59   which really just means post on his own personal blog

01:09:01   and have a popular app.

01:09:02   Like with the exception of that,

01:09:04   what I still think is a concern,

01:09:05   like, hey, what about my obscure app?

01:09:06   Nobody loves my app like they love Dash.

01:09:08   When I post on my blog, nobody will even notice.

01:09:10   Maybe I would still be SOL, right?

01:09:12   But with the exception of that caveat,

01:09:14   I think Apple's actions are essentially reassuring

01:09:17   legitimate developers that Apple will try to be reasonable.

01:09:22   And what Marco said is like,

01:09:24   if the goal of this developer was to be able to continue

01:09:29   his business, his business of selling software

01:09:31   and his popular application, he made bad choices.

01:09:34   You can decide, do you wanna be right and be like righteous

01:09:39   and be like, I refuse to admit to even any kind

01:09:42   of wrongdoing or being linked or Apple's being on for,

01:09:44   or do you just want your account back?

01:09:46   Because they weren't asking him to say anything

01:09:47   that's not true, they weren't asking him to take blame

01:09:50   for anything that he doesn't have blame for,

01:09:51   they were 100% believing his story,

01:09:53   taking it at face value, saying, okay, great,

01:09:56   you gave an account to somebody else or whatever,

01:09:58   we're gonna get your account back.

01:10:00   All we want you to do is to make it clear,

01:10:02   like Margaret said, that the facts of the situation

01:10:05   were what they were, there was a reason for Apple

01:10:07   to do what it did, and that everyone involved,

01:10:09   like, not to make it seem like Apple made a terrible mistake

01:10:13   but we all worked it out, and then have Apple come out

01:10:15   of it, which I think is totally reasonable,

01:10:17   and he made bad choices if his goal

01:10:19   was to get his business back.

01:10:20   He could have gotten it back,

01:10:22   doing things that are reasonable, telling the truth.

01:10:25   They were allowing him to write whatever he wanted

01:10:27   as long as he hit those two key points,

01:10:29   which everybody involved in the conversation agreed on,

01:10:31   and he didn't do it.

01:10:32   Did he not do it because he was just too proud or stubborn

01:10:35   or thought he would end up coming out of it looking bad

01:10:39   or whatever, who knows?

01:10:40   But if his goal was to get his business back, he blew it.

01:10:43   But I still think outside of this,

01:10:46   that most developers, you know, Marco can answer

01:10:48   'cause he's obviously the only one with an application

01:10:50   on the App Store of any significance

01:10:52   that's specifically tied to him and has long experience.

01:10:55   Do you feel reassured by the outcome of this

01:10:58   that Apple would be reasonable

01:11:00   if you found yourself in this situation?

01:11:02   Or is it neutral or do you feel worse

01:11:04   that you didn't realize this could happen

01:11:07   but now you think it could happen to you and you'd be screwed?

01:11:09   - No, I mean, I think you nailed it.

01:11:11   The reason Apple cared so much about this

01:11:14   was because they know how bad it would be

01:11:18   if it appeared that they were capriciously

01:11:21   suspending developer accounts for no reason.

01:11:23   That would be terrible for their reputation

01:11:26   among developers.

01:11:27   They knew how important it was to make sure

01:11:29   that the official story here, which was true,

01:11:32   was that Apple did not make a mistake

01:11:34   in detecting this fraud and suspending this account.

01:11:37   That was not a mistake on their part.

01:11:38   They did not mess up.

01:11:39   They were not being capricious.

01:11:41   They actually detected real fraud

01:11:43   and on a linked account that was really linked

01:11:45   in a way that is substantial,

01:11:48   and so they wanted that story to be true,

01:11:50   that this was not just them being wrong.

01:11:52   And again, the way they handled it,

01:11:54   as I said, I think they handled it very well,

01:11:57   better than they had to,

01:11:58   and so because of those two things,

01:12:00   yes, I feel good about this.

01:12:03   You can say, as a developer working on the App Store,

01:12:07   there's always a certain minimum level of App Store BS

01:12:10   that everyone has to put up with,

01:12:11   mostly around the reviews and the policies

01:12:13   and everything else, but it really,

01:12:16   in the grand scheme of things,

01:12:18   that BS tends to be most of the time

01:12:21   consistent and easy to work within for most developers.

01:12:26   And it's a known quantity.

01:12:28   It's not usually capricious or dangerous,

01:12:32   about to kill your business at any moment,

01:12:33   unless you're doing things really close

01:12:34   to the edges of the rules, which most people aren't

01:12:37   and don't need to.

01:12:39   For the most part, Apple as a gatekeeper does pretty well,

01:12:44   as gatekeepers go.

01:12:45   The whole concept of a gatekeeper to begin with

01:12:47   is problematic, sorry Merlin,

01:12:50   it is challenging to get that right,

01:12:53   and there's always going to be dysfunction and problems

01:12:55   by having any gatekeeper,

01:12:56   but if you're going to have a gatekeeper,

01:12:58   I think Apple does a pretty good job of it,

01:13:01   possibly even a very good job of it.

01:13:03   And as a developer on these platforms,

01:13:07   I am reassured by this story,

01:13:09   that Apple really does care to get things right

01:13:11   and to make sure that they're doing right

01:13:13   for the community as much as they can.

01:13:14   So I consider this a positive thing as a developer.

01:13:18   I consider it a bit of a pain in the butt

01:13:20   as a customer of Dash, but otherwise,

01:13:23   I consider it a positive thing as a developer.

01:13:25   - That's why you should never buy your Mac apps

01:13:27   in the Mac App Store.

01:13:28   Once again, we learned that lesson.

01:13:29   - Exactly. - If it's available

01:13:31   outside the Mac App Store,

01:13:32   buy it outside the Mac App Store, you'll just be happier.

01:13:34   Which is a problem for Apple.

01:13:35   It's ironic that this is exposing.

01:13:38   You know, like this is something they can fix.

01:13:40   Apple in turn is like, oh, when we suspend

01:13:41   a developer account, shouldn't we still allow

01:13:43   the L apps to be downloaded?

01:13:45   They can fix that internally.

01:13:46   That seems like something they, you know,

01:13:47   if they cared about the Mac App Store at all,

01:13:48   that they would fix.

01:13:50   But yeah, it's kind of sad that it's,

01:13:52   they're kind of highlighting the problems

01:13:54   with the Mac App Store by doing the right thing

01:13:56   and detecting fraud and canceling accounts.

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01:16:27   (upbeat music)

01:16:29   - So Marco, tell us about Dropbox.

01:16:33   - Mm. (laughs)

01:16:36   Here's the thing.

01:16:37   Dropbox is making questionable choices in recent times.

01:16:43   There was a thing a couple weeks back

01:16:46   where Dropbox was basically discovered

01:16:49   to be hacking the Mac accessibility apps database.

01:16:53   This is actually, I believe it's fixed in Sierra,

01:16:55   but basically, Mac OS X has a certain separate security level

01:17:00   for accessibility-related apps,

01:17:02   and this allows apps to see way more system events,

01:17:07   things like capturing keyboard input and stuff like that.

01:17:10   Basically, if you are an accessibility app,

01:17:11   you can basically see and intercept and track

01:17:15   everything happening on the system.

01:17:17   Things that are considered secure,

01:17:18   you can still, you have access to them,

01:17:21   whereas most apps would not be able to do things like

01:17:24   log every keystroke that's ever typed in,

01:17:26   things like that, right?

01:17:29   And so Dropbox, in order to achieve certain features

01:17:33   or something, Dropbox was forcefully injecting itself

01:17:37   into the list of apps, using a prompt to prompt you

01:17:42   for your password that looked like the system password box.

01:17:46   - No, no, it was the system password box.

01:17:48   That's why I put this thing in the show notes.

01:17:49   - Was it? - It was, yeah.

01:17:51   - Oh, okay.

01:17:52   - So like, I had this, before Marco started getting

01:17:56   cranky about Dropbox, I had an item in the notes

01:17:58   is actually still below there about Dropbox's accessibility

01:18:01   quote unquote hack.

01:18:02   Because the first stories about this were like,

01:18:05   so this is the observed behavior,

01:18:07   whichever one agrees is crappy.

01:18:08   The observed behavior is Dropbox,

01:18:11   it wants you to turn on accessibility,

01:18:14   but if you say no, it will, you know,

01:18:18   and take it out, the next time it comes up,

01:18:20   it will just try to put itself back.

01:18:22   Like if you go to the system preferences and remove it,

01:18:24   right, and then you just reboot, like it'll be back again.

01:18:26   And so that is user hostile behavior,

01:18:28   because the user disabled it, and then unbeknownst to them,

01:18:32   maybe you just launch it again and it puts itself back.

01:18:34   And so the question was among the people

01:18:36   who first saw this behavior,

01:18:37   who were probably not programmers

01:18:39   or particularly technical, was like,

01:18:42   it must be saving my admin password,

01:18:44   because I entered my admin password

01:18:46   to allow it to do this stuff,

01:18:47   but then when I went to system preferences and turned it off,

01:18:49   the only way they could be possibly

01:18:51   turning it back on automatically,

01:18:53   which is this user hostile behavior that they observed,

01:18:56   is that it must have saved my admin password,

01:18:58   which would indeed be horrible.

01:19:00   But anybody who knows anything about, you know,

01:19:03   Mac OS X or whatever the hell it's called now,

01:19:06   and Unix or whatever knows, like,

01:19:07   (laughing)

01:19:08   they would never save your password.

01:19:10   That is the stupidest possible way

01:19:12   to get the thing they want.

01:19:13   Because once you've entered your admin password,

01:19:16   they don't need your admin password anymore, right?

01:19:19   And so, yeah, so they don't save your admin password,

01:19:22   which would be, and you can't totally discount it,

01:19:24   because we all hear about these websites

01:19:25   saving people's passwords in plain text.

01:19:27   So never overestimate the security intelligence

01:19:31   of people writing code.

01:19:32   But Dropbox is a big company and it's really hard for me

01:19:34   to believe that they do something like that.

01:19:35   They don't.

01:19:36   - Honestly, I would have believed that.

01:19:39   By the time I read the story, it was already discovered

01:19:41   that they weren't actually saving their password,

01:19:42   but I would not rule out that they would try.

01:19:45   - Well, but they wouldn't though.

01:19:47   It's a matter of competence because Dropbox has a lot

01:19:49   of money and they have smart developers, right?

01:19:51   And the reason I think that--

01:19:51   - It's not a matter of competence.

01:19:53   It's a matter of respect.

01:19:55   No, no, no, it's a matter of competence

01:19:57   because to do the thing they want to do,

01:20:00   which we all agree is use a hostel,

01:20:01   they don't need your password more than once.

01:20:03   Once they enter it, like what they actually did

01:20:05   is they just make setuid executable.

01:20:07   Like everybody knows that.

01:20:08   Anyone who's done any Unix hacking,

01:20:09   like as soon as you've got root access,

01:20:10   the first thing you do is make setuid executables,

01:20:13   setuid shell so you can get back.

01:20:14   Like it's just like you've given them your main password.

01:20:18   They're like la-da-da, do-do-do,

01:20:20   check the setuid bit on these CHO,

01:20:23   now I have setuid root executables done and done.

01:20:26   They don't need your password anymore, right?

01:20:28   And so that is what they use.

01:20:32   And it doesn't matter,

01:20:33   every time you give an app an admin password,

01:20:34   you are essentially saying,

01:20:36   by giving you this admin password,

01:20:38   you now have free reign of the whole system.

01:20:39   Not just momentarily, but because once I give it to you,

01:20:42   you can immediately make a setuid executable as whatever.

01:20:45   And just like, it's all over.

01:20:47   And the system integrity protection protects against that

01:20:50   because it's like, oh, even with root access,

01:20:51   You can't modify these files or whatever.

01:20:53   But anyway, there's that.

01:20:56   So there was competence.

01:20:58   Like, the best way to do this user hostile behavior

01:21:01   is not to store their passwords.

01:21:02   You're like, they're smart.

01:21:02   They're not going to do that.

01:21:04   And they're going to do it the smarter way

01:21:06   to do this user hostile behavior, right?

01:21:08   The second aspect of the part that's the hack part is like,

01:21:11   once you have that access, it still

01:21:13   doesn't mean you have to go directly to the SQLite database

01:21:15   and start mucking with it.

01:21:16   Because that's like using private APIs.

01:21:18   It's like, Apple's like, you don't

01:21:19   know what the structure of our database is.

01:21:20   just because you look in there and see a bunch of tables

01:21:22   and columns and think you know how to hack it,

01:21:24   that's not a public API, that's not guaranteed.

01:21:27   It's the same reason they don't want you using private APIs.

01:21:29   You're not supposed to even be looking at that stuff.

01:21:31   We reserve the right to change that at any time.

01:21:33   So that is the quote unquote hack part of it

01:21:35   is that don't directly access our databases

01:21:38   behind the scenes, we provide APIs.

01:21:40   You have to use those.

01:21:41   You can't just go sneakily find what the underlying storage

01:21:44   is and directly mess with it.

01:21:45   So that is, I don't know why they were doing it that way.

01:21:48   Maybe it's the easiest way to secretly do it

01:21:50   behind the scenes, but it's terrible.

01:21:51   And they were signing themselves up for a maintenance headache

01:21:53   because it's like once you use a private API like that,

01:21:56   whether you know it or not, you're now on the hook

01:21:58   to track every little change Apple does to their internals

01:22:01   instead of just tracking their API diffs.

01:22:02   Because at any moment, in any point release,

01:22:05   they could totally change the structure of that database,

01:22:07   and your app will blow up, and it's totally your fault

01:22:09   because you've screwed things up.

01:22:10   So that, I would say, is the best example

01:22:13   of them doing something that's not a good developer practice.

01:22:16   But the initial story about them changing your password

01:22:19   was totally a misunderstanding of the fact that they don't need your passport. They

01:22:27   would never do that because it's dumb. They have everything they need and more.

01:22:31   Right. All right. So anyway, however they were doing it, Dropbox was really inappropriately

01:22:37   hacking the TCC database, the accessibility database, to inject themselves forcefully

01:22:43   even if you remove them.

01:22:44   So that to me is like offense number one for this is not good and they're eroding trust

01:22:53   that I have in them and the ability and the willingness I have to run their software on

01:22:57   my computer and give them access to literally everything on my computer.

01:23:01   And then…

01:23:02   Although before we move on from that, their defense of this as LinkedIn I think probably

01:23:06   have the hackers news link that the developer talks about.

01:23:09   Their defense is actually plausible as a—I mean, you can still say this is not socially

01:23:15   acceptable behavior, especially among tech-savvy users, but I can see where a company like

01:23:20   Dropbox can get into a situation where it thinks this is the right thing to do.

01:23:23   And it's basically that when you install an application, if they have these one-time

01:23:27   prompts that you answer "the wrong way."

01:23:30   You didn't understand what the hell it was, you just hit cancel or whatever, and now you

01:23:33   don't have some kind of finder integration that you expected from Dropbox, right?

01:23:38   It can be a legitimate support issue that enough people click the wrong box on that

01:23:42   one-time setup thing, and they're like, "DropBox doesn't work."

01:23:46   When I see it on my friend's computer, there's these little badges or these little whatever.

01:23:49   Whatever features accessibility is providing, it's not working.

01:23:52   DropBox is broken.

01:23:53   And I can imagine that being a popular support request, and that they have to walk people

01:23:57   through, "Oh, go to the thing, go to accessibility, click the little lock icon to basically re-enable

01:24:03   and then the sort of cutting the Gordian knot solution

01:24:07   becomes, you know what, users can't handle this.

01:24:10   It's too complicated, they don't understand

01:24:12   what we mean by accessibility,

01:24:13   they don't wanna type in their min password,

01:24:14   they're scared by it, why don't we just,

01:24:17   like if they ever enter their min password,

01:24:19   put a little insurance, but let's bury some set UID

01:24:21   root executables in our bundle.

01:24:23   And as soon as they enter a min password,

01:24:25   put them there, and you know what,

01:24:26   if it accidentally gets turned off by a point release

01:24:28   or an OS update or whatever,

01:24:30   so we won't hear from people saying,

01:24:32   "Hey, Dropbox is broken again.

01:24:34   Why don't we just turn it on?"

01:24:35   Like it's paternalistic.

01:24:36   It's like, they won't even know we do it.

01:24:38   We'll do it behind the scenes.

01:24:40   They won't see any UI.

01:24:41   It will cut down on our support requests.

01:24:43   That I think is the head space that they get into.

01:24:45   It's not particularly nefarious.

01:24:46   They're just trying to solve a support problem,

01:24:49   but they eventually, they wrap themselves up

01:24:51   in knots to where they think

01:24:52   they're actually doing people a favor by doing this.

01:24:55   Whereas we all realize you've gone too far

01:24:58   in the hopes of like, let's make it a smooth experience

01:25:01   most users at the expense of being sneaky. And it's the wrong thing to do, but I think

01:25:06   it is not done because they are malicious or bad developers. I think it's actually done

01:25:10   because they're trying to make the experience better for everybody. Like, "Why don't we

01:25:15   just solve this? Why are we bothering users with this crap? Why don't we just make Dropbox

01:25:19   — people just want Dropbox to work like Dropbox. We have the technology. We can just

01:25:23   make it work." And that's, I think, where they went wrong in that feature.

01:25:26   - I mean the thing is like if you're going to,

01:25:28   basically it's the attitude that a lot of developers

01:25:33   and platform owners have of like,

01:25:35   we know better than our users,

01:25:38   so we're just gonna do it for you.

01:25:39   Or we're gonna do things the way we think are right for you

01:25:43   and you just have to go along for the ride

01:25:45   because that's gonna be best for you.

01:25:47   And there's a place for that and there's lots of places

01:25:50   where that is the most pragmatic or the correct solution

01:25:53   or position to take.

01:25:55   But as a user, I wanna make sure that whatever software

01:26:00   I am granting that level of control to,

01:26:03   I wanna make sure that I agree with their judgment

01:26:07   in general and their technical abilities

01:26:10   and their way of doing things.

01:26:12   And if I start doubting somebody's judgment

01:26:16   or integrity or skill, then I don't want them

01:26:21   making decisions for me and doing things behind my back

01:26:23   and having access that I don't believe that they need

01:26:27   and things like that.

01:26:28   That becomes a trust issue, it becomes a security issue,

01:26:31   and lots of other potential problems.

01:26:34   So my problem with Dropbox here is

01:26:37   that accessibility hack, I think, shows poor judgment.

01:26:41   I think that is irresponsible the way they did that.

01:26:44   So did Apple, which is why Apple made it impossible

01:26:45   by putting the accessibility stuff

01:26:47   into system integrity protection in Sierra.

01:26:49   And Apple is one such, you know,

01:26:52   Apple is one of these companies too,

01:26:53   or Apple, in many ways, Apple's implied position

01:26:57   is basically we know best, we're gonna do this for you,

01:26:59   and you're not gonna have control.

01:27:01   And if you're an Apple customer or user,

01:27:03   you have to basically decide,

01:27:07   do I trust Apple with this control,

01:27:10   and do I generally agree with their judgment

01:27:12   in order to give them this control happily without problems?

01:27:16   And a lot of people who don't like Apple products,

01:27:18   who don't use Apple products,

01:27:20   the reason they don't use Apple products

01:27:21   is because they don't wanna give Apple that control,

01:27:23   They don't agree with Apple's decisions in those areas.

01:27:25   Or they don't trust Apple to have that level of ability.

01:27:28   And that's fine, right?

01:27:29   And my issue here with Dropbox is they make decisions

01:27:32   like this, they also, in their beta channel,

01:27:35   which is still in beta, granted, but in their beta channel,

01:27:38   they recently quote tested a toolbar that was injected

01:27:42   into Finder windows, which is like,

01:27:44   show this giant toolbar, which it looked like malware.

01:27:47   Like it was injected in the bottom of the window.

01:27:49   And it's like, no, that's not okay.

01:27:52   Why? Who thought that was a good idea?

01:27:55   - Well, but that's just a bad feature

01:27:56   being rolled out to the beta.

01:27:57   I mean, everyone, you know, you try it out on a beta user

01:27:59   and all your users go, "Oh, that's awful," right?

01:28:01   But like the specifics of injecting,

01:28:04   we'll eventually get to this, I think, later,

01:28:05   but like the origin of Dropbox

01:28:08   is that it was basically a hacksy on the Finder

01:28:10   to do all the little badges and the icons.

01:28:11   Like that is the product we all fell in love with,

01:28:14   is was the one that didn't like literally inject itself

01:28:16   into the Finder process to do this,

01:28:19   like the worst kind of hack,

01:28:20   the worst kind of totally unsupportable,

01:28:22   unsupported hack. And I think a lot of the reason, I mean, that's the app we came to

01:28:27   to to start using. And we liked it. And we like the badges. We like, you know, they

01:28:32   gave you some reassurance, green checkmark, it's synced little blue thing. It's not like

01:28:35   right. That's that's Dropbox. If they didn't have that feature, it would have been a

01:28:39   lesser product. And because the people who did it were clever enough to get it done in a

01:28:45   way that didn't suddenly cause the finder to be crashing left and right, and were able to

01:28:50   chase Apple as they updated the Finder and keep it working and so on and so forth to the point

01:28:55   where Apple eventually said Dropbox is so popular and badging things is a thing that people actually

01:29:00   want to do. We're going to add an official API for this. They finally did the hacksies pass in the

01:29:05   grass thing that I talked about all those years ago. It's like, look at what people are using.

01:29:09   If you don't want them to use a disgusting hack to use this feature, make an officially supported

01:29:14   API. And I'm pretty sure, I'm sure people will send his email if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure

01:29:19   that Dropbox did eventually adopt that official API rather than continuing their hack. Because

01:29:24   Dropbox doesn't want to do that hack. They would love to have a supported API. Presumably,

01:29:28   if the supported API does everything that Dropbox needed to do, of course they would adopt it. And

01:29:33   I think they have in the later versions. That's not really the system working. But during all

01:29:40   that time, we were all like, "Yay, badges on Dropbox icons is great." So it's not so

01:29:45   so much that they added a hack for this is that you could say,

01:29:48   the fact that someone thought this was

01:29:50   an aesthetically pleasing and appropriate UI,

01:29:53   it shows poor judgment,

01:29:54   which I'm on board with you there, right?

01:29:57   That it looks like,

01:29:57   I think of like those Internet Explorer toolbars,

01:29:59   you know, they're like, yeah, the DIE, just like,

01:30:02   that shows poor judgment.

01:30:03   But the fact that it's not a,

01:30:06   the fact that it's injected, it's like, well, you know,

01:30:09   Dropbox was founded on ill-advised code and injection,

01:30:13   which is probably not on the wall in their headquarters,

01:30:15   but it might as well be.

01:30:16   - Yeah, fair enough.

01:30:17   Anyway, so Dropbox, in my opinion,

01:30:19   has shown poor judgment recently

01:30:21   and questionable technical decisions.

01:30:23   There's some performance issues.

01:30:27   Dropbox appears to monitor all file system activity

01:30:31   in some way, not just in their folder,

01:30:33   but in the whole system.

01:30:34   - So I have some things to say about that as well.

01:30:36   - Okay, go ahead. - I know you've

01:30:37   complained about this.

01:30:39   They've been doing that for frickin' ever.

01:30:41   From the very beginning, DBFS of Enti

01:30:43   has been there slurping from the FS events fire hose

01:30:45   and being just as un-fungs has always been.

01:30:47   This is not a new thing.

01:30:48   Like whether it's ill-advised or not,

01:30:50   it's like maybe not from the very, very beginning,

01:30:52   but for many, many years,

01:30:55   if you were to look at top and see DBFS events

01:30:57   the grinding up your things,

01:30:58   especially if you had a slow spinning disk,

01:31:00   and especially if you have a small number of cores,

01:31:03   that is not a new development.

01:31:04   Now you can say a preponderance of things

01:31:07   have been bothering me about Dropbox,

01:31:09   and all of a sudden I noticed

01:31:11   that it's eating up my CPU cycles,

01:31:13   and they shouldn't be drinking from the FSEvents Firehose,

01:31:15   and they should be using the officially supported FSEvents

01:31:18   API and doing the diffs themselves

01:31:20   and so on and so forth.

01:31:21   That is a legit complaint, but it's not new.

01:31:24   So I think for you personally,

01:31:26   thinking about why you're at the end of your rope

01:31:28   about Dropbox, that can be a contributing factor,

01:31:31   but just because you may have become aware of it recently

01:31:33   doesn't mean it's not something

01:31:35   that has been a constant for many years.

01:31:36   - That's fair, totally fair.

01:31:38   But anyway, so with these problems

01:31:42   that I'm finding with Dropbox,

01:31:44   I started thinking, could I remove Dropbox from my life?

01:31:48   Could I switch to something else

01:31:50   for the roles that I use Dropbox for?

01:31:52   And how difficult would that make my life

01:31:55   in working with other people, basically?

01:31:57   And this is an interesting exercise.

01:32:00   I started realizing that a lot of the way I work

01:32:05   and the software I use is tied very closely

01:32:08   to Dropbox right now.

01:32:10   And I don't even use it as much as a lot of people I know,

01:32:12   like a lot of geeks I know, they put like all their photos

01:32:16   in Dropbox, all their like text everything,

01:32:18   like I actually use Dropbox pretty lightly

01:32:21   compared to many people I know.

01:32:23   But even then, like, I started thinking like,

01:32:26   how would I move off of Dropbox if things finally

01:32:29   pushed me over the edge and I decided,

01:32:31   'cause I'm not there yet, like I'm not saying right now

01:32:33   I'm leaving Dropbox period.

01:32:35   I don't know that I'm going to be doing that yet.

01:32:37   But I started thinking, what if Dropbox continues

01:32:41   going down a path I disagree with,

01:32:43   and I decide that I want to leave?

01:32:45   What does that look like?

01:32:46   What do I go to, first of all?

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01:34:51   (upbeat music)

01:34:55   So I've been trying to figure out

01:34:57   if there's any alternatives to Dropbox

01:34:59   that I could switch to and how that would look,

01:35:01   how that would work, what I would have to move

01:35:04   or change about my workflows or setups

01:35:06   to really achieve that.

01:35:07   And I use so much for Dropbox.

01:35:09   I have my 1Password sync is there,

01:35:12   I have a couple of text app that sync to it.

01:35:14   My entire blog engine is based on Dropbox syncing

01:35:17   and editing a bunch of text files

01:35:18   that are in a Dropbox folder.

01:35:19   And the way I edit my blog on my phone

01:35:22   is by using Dropbox syncing text editors.

01:35:25   So it would be non-trivial to switch off.

01:35:27   But not to mention, one of the biggest things

01:35:29   about Dropbox is shared folders.

01:35:31   Like, you know, we, the three of us on this show,

01:35:33   we have a shared folder, like that's how John and Casey

01:35:36   get their audio files to me after each show.

01:35:39   That's how, that's where we put like any kind

01:35:40   of shared files, things like artwork and sound effects.

01:35:43   There's so many, like, so many people,

01:35:46   like when you're working with small groups of people,

01:35:47   especially if they're nerds like us,

01:35:49   you will almost always have like Dropbox shared folders

01:35:52   or Dropbox share links involved in that work group

01:35:55   in some way.

01:35:57   So it really is not trivial to switch away.

01:35:59   And there aren't a whole lot of solutions

01:36:02   on how to switch away.

01:36:03   Like assuming you want the same kind of thing,

01:36:07   there's, I don't know, like five or six different things

01:36:09   you could do, there's not a ton.

01:36:11   The ones I got the most recommendations for

01:36:14   are what used to be called BitTorrent Sync

01:36:18   and is now called Resilio.

01:36:20   And then there's also C file, that's S-E-A file.

01:36:24   There's not a lot about it out there,

01:36:26   but people who use it tend to love it apparently.

01:36:29   There's not a lot in the way of apps

01:36:34   for iOS and stuff or anything like that,

01:36:36   but people seem to love C file.

01:36:39   So I might try that as well.

01:36:42   I didn't really get a noticeable amount of recommendations

01:36:45   for any other solution.

01:36:47   I'm curious, have you guys ever tried

01:36:49   Any of these other things that can do Dropbox-like functions?

01:36:53   - No, but what about the Synology Cloud Station,

01:36:55   or whatever they call it?

01:36:56   - Oh yeah, I did wanna try that as well.

01:36:59   I'm a little, I worry about, because it is probably

01:37:03   a fairly small audience thing, I worry, again with that,

01:37:07   I worry about things like app support.

01:37:09   That's why, if I'm gonna try one,

01:37:10   in a world without mobile devices,

01:37:13   where I'm just syncing between two computers,

01:37:15   I would probably try C file, because that seems like

01:37:17   it is the best regarded in that way.

01:37:20   But because we're in this world of mobile

01:37:22   and you need things like apps and stuff,

01:37:23   I think BitTorrent, or excuse me,

01:37:25   Resilio is probably the one to use,

01:37:27   'cause that seems like the most popular alternative

01:37:29   that is roughly what I'm looking for.

01:37:32   - I go with the bigger names.

01:37:33   Like I've used--

01:37:34   - Like Box?

01:37:35   - Yeah, voluntarily and involuntarily.

01:37:37   I use Box, it worked, did not like,

01:37:39   but it is very Dropbox-like, just imagine Dropbox but worse.

01:37:43   - That's great, that's what I'm looking for.

01:37:44   - Yeah.

01:37:46   Google Drive, obviously, widely supported,

01:37:49   it's available on mobile,

01:37:51   it works more or less like Dropbox.

01:37:53   I do use that voluntarily, both at work and at home.

01:37:57   And I feel like if I was going off Dropbox

01:38:00   for whatever reason, that's probably where I would go

01:38:02   because it is very widely supported.

01:38:04   I already, you know,

01:38:05   I'm in to the Google ecosystem pretty well.

01:38:09   Yeah, so I haven't had any problems with it.

01:38:13   I can't say I've exercised it as much as Dropbox.

01:38:15   basically I don't run Google Drive unless I need it.

01:38:17   I launch it.

01:38:18   I use the web UI a lot.

01:38:20   And if I want it to be on my Mac, I launch it,

01:38:22   do whatever I need to do, and then quit it.

01:38:24   So obviously I'm not giving it the same workout

01:38:26   that Dropbox does, but that seems to me the most obvious,

01:38:30   well-supported reasonable alternative.

01:38:32   I have no idea how it behaves

01:38:33   in terms of niceness to your system.

01:38:35   I know lots of Google stuff annoys me

01:38:38   by when you give it your root password,

01:38:41   at some of your admin password at some point,

01:38:43   and it gets admin privileges.

01:38:45   Installs all sorts of little watchers to make sure that all the Google apps are kept up-to-date

01:38:49   Which is kind of nice but also kind of creepy when like this dialogue pops up asking you to update a Google app that you

01:38:54   Haven't launched in like a year and a half and you're like what is that?

01:38:57   Hasn't that been running on my system trying to make sure Google Earth is up-to-date that I haven't launched it forever like go away

01:39:02   Whatever their keystone process like I don't like that

01:39:06   But you know, maybe that's what's keeping me away from those and on Dropbox, which I feel like Dropbox is more understandable

01:39:13   I kind of know what it's doing and you know in finer detail. But anyway, that seems like the most obvious alternatives

01:39:19   You might want to give that a try depends on what your main objection to Dropbox is

01:39:23   Is it like ugly UI is it installing weird crap in your system? Is it performance like but I would say that

01:39:30   You know that doesn't help you with the social aspects of it the sort of network effect of like hey

01:39:34   We're all using Dropbox and you're over there in Google Drive

01:39:36   but Google Drive is pretty well supported

01:39:39   on all mobile platforms, has a really nice web UI,

01:39:42   and does the job.

01:39:44   - And there is one little saving grace with Dropbox,

01:39:47   with having to use Dropbox,

01:39:49   if you don't want its software running,

01:39:50   is that they do have a pretty robust web interface.

01:39:53   So you can, if you're forced to work with Dropbox people

01:39:56   and you don't wanna run Dropbox yourself,

01:39:58   you can actually get a lot of it done

01:39:59   with that web interface, not all of it,

01:40:01   but you can do a lot there.

01:40:03   - I think also with both Google Drive and Dropbox,

01:40:06   which as compared to iCloud Drive, which is apparently not in the running here.

01:40:10   Yeah, I was going to mention that.

01:40:12   Yeah. The glorious thing about this is that no matter what we think about Dropbox and Google

01:40:16   Drive, this may be not true, but I think we all still have the feeling that if I quit Dropbox,

01:40:23   it's out of the picture until I relaunch it, right? But you can quit it. It is a third-party

01:40:28   application. You can quit it on your Mac. And then, so if you were to quit, you feel like,

01:40:32   "Alright, well Dropbox is not in the picture anymore." Right? Whatever evil it was doing before,

01:40:37   whatever annoyance it was having, and for the most part both of them respect the thing of like,

01:40:43   launch when I log in yes/no, they don't automatically turn that one back on.

01:40:47   And so you can turn off Dropbox and have some confidence that it's not messing with you anymore,

01:40:53   as opposed to iCloud Drive, which there's always this suspicion that, you know, some part of the

01:40:58   system is doing stuff behind the scenes and you can't just quit it if you want it out of the

01:41:01   the picture like but you haven't brought this up over like the idea of a

01:41:04   expanding Xcode with its thousands and thousands of files and you don't want a

01:41:08   DBFS event grinding up one of your cores from Dropbox observing every single

01:41:13   file system event you can quit Dropbox and then you're like that won't happen

01:41:16   anymore if iCloud Drive was doing the same thing which hopefully it isn't you

01:41:21   don't have that option except for maybe unchecking the checkbox and it's saying

01:41:24   you sure you want to remove all these that you know having all your documents

01:41:27   on desktop disappear or some other weird thing when you quit Dropbox hey you can

01:41:31   and b) nothing happens to your Dropbox folder. Like it stays however it was when you quit,

01:41:36   which is I think reassuring.

01:41:37   E;R; Yeah, I mean iCloud Drive is, a few people also recommended that and it seems like while

01:41:43   most people have issues with other iCloud things, especially things like the Sierra

01:41:49   documents and desktop sync stuff, it seems like iCloud Drive is pretty good for most

01:41:54   people. Most of the reports that we got from it were very positive and a lot of people

01:41:58   said that they stopped using Dropbox

01:42:00   and just use iCloud Drive now.

01:42:02   So I might consider that.

01:42:04   iCloud Drive still kind of bothers me though

01:42:06   in the way that it's not just a folder.

01:42:08   Like it looks like a folder in Finder,

01:42:10   but isn't it kind of weirdly all over the place?

01:42:13   - It's in like a library mobile document.

01:42:14   So I would just caution again,

01:42:16   oh fine, but just don't use it with pages

01:42:18   or any of the iWork applications,

01:42:19   'cause apparently it makes it so you can't open

01:42:20   or save any of your files.

01:42:22   - Right, yes, that's kind of like,

01:42:24   what is great about Dropbox is that

01:42:28   the way it's implemented is so conceptually simple.

01:42:30   It's like this, there's just a special folder

01:42:33   on your hard drive, you can see where it is,

01:42:35   it's a regular folder full of regular files,

01:42:37   but there's this thing in the background that runs

01:42:38   that keeps it in sync with that same folder

01:42:40   on your other computers.

01:42:41   Like that is great.

01:42:43   And I've compared in the past,

01:42:45   one of the things I like about that

01:42:46   is that it kinda has the failure mode of a train

01:42:49   rather than the failure mode of an airplane.

01:42:50   Whereas like if an airplane fails, it crashes and you die.

01:42:55   If a train fails, it just stops moving.

01:42:57   Everything is still there, you just kinda stop moving.

01:43:01   And that's kinda how I feel with the way Dropbox,

01:43:04   if Dropbox's service has any kind of issue,

01:43:07   which it does, it is not perfect,

01:43:09   I've seen its issues many times

01:43:10   as somebody who uses a blogging engine based on Dropbox.

01:43:13   If Dropbox fails, all my files

01:43:16   are just still sitting there on my drive.

01:43:18   If Dropbox has some kind of catastrophic error

01:43:21   and it wipes out all my files,

01:43:23   like some kind of huge sync problem,

01:43:25   and it deletes all my files,

01:43:27   those are just files in this directory,

01:43:28   I can just go to Time Machine or my backups

01:43:30   and I can just get the file off the backups.

01:43:32   So the ways in which it can fail

01:43:36   are pretty low key safe things

01:43:40   that I can easily recover from

01:43:41   as a responsible computer user who has backups.

01:43:44   Whereas with a lot of these other solutions,

01:43:47   they're a little too smart or a little too abstracted

01:43:49   and I don't have that kind of luxury.

01:43:51   Some of them do work that way, but many of them don't.

01:43:53   And so that's why I was thinking of something

01:43:55   like BitTorrent Sync, again knowing

01:43:56   very little about it because it seems like that was probably

01:43:59   gonna be more like what I wanted.

01:44:01   But in reality, I'm probably just gonna stick with Dropbox

01:44:05   for a while, but kinda taking a few steps out the door,

01:44:08   like keeping one foot out the door in a way,

01:44:11   which is how I prefer to do most things with services

01:44:13   I commit myself to.

01:44:14   So I'm going to at some point start moving things

01:44:19   off of Dropbox.

01:44:20   I'm gonna move one password sync out of it.

01:44:22   I'm going to stop adding anything new to Dropbox

01:44:25   that would require its integration.

01:44:29   Start sending around links to people to just download files

01:44:32   instead of having Dropbox shared folders necessarily.

01:44:35   Don't invest into photos there, things like that.

01:44:38   Just kind of like putting Dropbox at a bit of a distance

01:44:42   and starting to move out of it slowly

01:44:44   because I think they're showing enough bad judgment

01:44:49   over time here that I think the time will come

01:44:51   that I will want to move off of it.

01:44:53   And I kind of want to be ready for that

01:44:54   And that's easier said than done.

01:44:57   I definitely take issue with some of the shady things that have been going on.

01:45:03   But I do think that, especially if you take the Hacker News comments as actually coming

01:45:09   from an engineer and an engineer that is to some degree, obviously, unofficially speaking

01:45:15   for the company, it doesn't seem like any of this was really malicious.

01:45:18   It was just either ill-advised or perhaps, you know, they weren't as smart as we hope

01:45:24   they were or whatever the case may be but I don't know I feel like Dropbox is

01:45:29   fairly essential to me getting my my life done I was gonna say work but just

01:45:35   my life so it would take quite a lot for me to want to walk away from it and I am

01:45:41   not at that point yet and I think I'm further away from that point than you

01:45:44   are and that's not a bad thing that's that's not a good thing it's just a

01:45:47   thing but it's certainly worth keeping an eye on and certainly you know we were

01:45:52   talking earlier about, you know, what is everyone's perception of Apple after this whole kerfuffle

01:45:56   with Dash, and what is everyone's perception of Dropbox after this came to light. And I

01:46:03   feel like Dropbox, which used to be kind of like a panic level, can do no wrong, in my

01:46:10   mind anyway, can do no wrong, generally speaking, is really good code that seems to always work,

01:46:16   It doesn't seem quite so cut and dry to me anymore.

01:46:21   And that's too bad, but you know, even the mighty can fall.

01:46:24   All right, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Betterment, Pingdom, and Indochino,

01:46:28   and we will see you next week.

01:46:31   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

01:46:39   Oh, it was accidental.

01:46:41   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, cause it was accidental,

01:46:50   it was accidental.

01:46:52   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm, and if you're into Twitter, you can follow

01:47:03   them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O.

01:47:10   C-O-A-R-M-N-T-Marco-Armin S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Cusa

01:47:20   It's accidental (it's accidental) They didn't mean to

01:47:25   Accidental (accidental) Tech Barcast so long

01:47:32   What are we doing in the post show? You want to talk about your cameras?

01:47:35   Yeah, we got more Marco waffling.

01:47:38   This should be a new-- we should put a capital W on that, Marco waffling.

01:47:43   Here we come a waffling.

01:47:45   The category of things where Marco decides on a direction for his life.

01:47:51   Like, an example would be, I like BMW cars.

01:47:55   And then the turn after that is, I like electric cars.

01:47:58   Right?

01:47:59   And then we assume there will be some point in the future, perhaps distant future, where

01:48:02   Marco starts waffling electric cars.

01:48:03   So this one is, that's how I would define this category of thing.

01:48:09   I don't know, Marco Waffling doesn't have a good ring to it.

01:48:11   We gotta workshop that name.

01:48:12   We gotta come up with something.

01:48:13   But anyway, the current round of Marco Waffling, which by the way, it sounds like it's a bad

01:48:17   name, but we're just joking.

01:48:18   Really what it is, is Marco being willing to revisit decisions he's made in the past

01:48:23   when the conditions changed.

01:48:24   There we go.

01:48:25   Which is an admirable thing, but it's much more fun to make fun of him about it and use

01:48:28   the word "waffle" because it's funny.

01:48:30   So anyway, the current one is cameras.

01:48:33   - You know, for years I used SLRs.

01:48:37   They gradually fell out of favor

01:48:39   as I just didn't want to carry them anywhere.

01:48:42   And then I got this little tiny Sony RX1

01:48:45   because it could basically see in the dark

01:48:48   the sensor was so good,

01:48:49   and it had an amazing little prime lens on it.

01:48:51   The limitations of that camera with both,

01:48:54   you know, things like autofocus speed,

01:48:56   this is the old RX one, there's a new one that's better,

01:48:57   but this is the first one.

01:48:59   The autofocus speeds sucked, the battery life sucked,

01:49:02   and I wanted a little more versatility

01:49:04   in the lens selection and just a little bit

01:49:07   better performance.

01:49:09   And it wasn't small enough that I was actually carrying it

01:49:12   many places because it was still a camera

01:49:14   that couldn't fit in my pocket.

01:49:16   So about a year ago, I switched to the new Sony A7R II

01:49:21   because it was my first mirrorless,

01:49:25   but it's still an interchangeable lens camera.

01:49:28   It's an amazing camera in many, many ways.

01:49:31   The a7R II is, in many ways,

01:49:34   the best camera in the world right now.

01:49:35   However, it is not perfect,

01:49:38   and it's not perfect in some fairly large ways.

01:49:43   And over the last year, I have thought,

01:49:45   I can get by this and I can get used to this,

01:49:47   and I'll get faster with this.

01:49:49   So the main reasons the Sony a7R II is not perfect

01:49:54   are number one, and this is a huge one,

01:49:57   which I'll describe why later, battery life.

01:50:00   And ever since the beginning, I mean,

01:50:01   I made fun of the fact that the camera,

01:50:03   the battery life is so bad that it ships

01:50:05   with two batteries in the box.

01:50:07   It is the first time I've ever bought any electronic device

01:50:11   that includes two of its own battery

01:50:13   because everyone who uses it will need more than one.

01:50:17   - I wish mine came with two batteries

01:50:18   since they're like 50 bucks for that little, turdy battery.

01:50:20   - I know, and I've lost two of them.

01:50:21   So, anyway, so the battery life is 10,000,

01:50:26   is terrible. You know, you're lucky to get through a day using it. And you can only do

01:50:33   -- you can only get through a whole day if you are very, very careful and you kind of

01:50:38   baby the battery. The second problem with it is that it is pretty slow. Turning it on,

01:50:45   you know, it takes a few seconds to kind of boot up and get itself oriented. Shot-to-shot

01:50:49   time, if you want to review the pictures that you're taking with it, it is very, very slow.

01:50:54   It takes a few seconds after it has shot before you can really review them.

01:50:58   If you want to review a picture and zoom in to check to make sure that you focused correctly

01:51:04   or that the right thing was in focus and you want to zoom in and check, that takes a long

01:51:07   time, like a few seconds delay.

01:51:10   Writing the pictures to the card takes a long time, which is partly because they're so large,

01:51:16   but also probably because I think the image processor is just slow.

01:51:18   Just to provide some context here, by the way, I'm sure you'll get to the context eventually,

01:51:22   But my Sony, which I'm sure is, well, I'm not sure actually.

01:51:26   Is it actually slower in all those things that you described with yours?

01:51:29   Because mine is actually newer.

01:51:30   Yours is almost a year newer and also shoots much smaller photos.

01:51:34   So I bet yours is probably a lot faster.

01:51:37   Well anyway, I was going to say, I totally believe that this is slower than the thing

01:51:40   you're actually comparing it to, which you'll get to in a moment, but it's the fastest camera

01:51:43   I've ever owned.

01:51:44   So like the world, when you go from the world of like three digit price cameras to the world

01:51:48   four-digit price cameras. I was amazed at how fast this thing turns on, how fast it

01:51:53   boots up, how fast it does everything. So everything's relative. But anyway, continue.

01:51:58   The result, so this camera, it has the most amazing sensor I've ever seen. I think it

01:52:03   might even be one of the best testing full-frame sensors in the world by like testing metrics

01:52:08   like the XO Mark and everything. It is an incredibly awesome sensor. It can basically

01:52:11   see in the dark with very little noise. Dynamic range is ridiculous. It has an incredibly

01:52:17   advanced autofocus system, the main problem is just that it's so slow and that the battery

01:52:23   life is so bad. And the battery life manifests itself in interesting ways that I hadn't

01:52:27   necessarily foreseen, foresaw, when I bought it in first, even when I bought it I knew

01:52:33   the battery life wasn't going to be great. But there are certain ways that this is a

01:52:37   problem. So for instance, it has Wi-Fi, but I've never used it because in order for

01:52:44   to be convenient to use, you have to leave the Wi-Fi enabled

01:52:47   in some way and then eventually launch and have everything.

01:52:49   And to get reasonable battery life out of this camera,

01:52:51   you have to do things like keep it in airplane mode.

01:52:54   So I've just never used the Wi-Fi (laughs)

01:52:57   because it's just, I have all these settings

01:52:59   to maximize the power consumption.

01:53:01   Also, as you're shooting throughout the day,

01:53:04   because it's mirrorless, if the camera is on,

01:53:07   if it's ready to go, one of the two screens is always on,

01:53:10   either the one that's in the electronic viewfinder

01:53:12   or the one in the back.

01:53:13   a screen is always on if the camera is ready to shoot.

01:53:17   Unlike SLRs, really, SLRs, if you have the back screen on,

01:53:20   that's one thing, but in normal mode with SLRs,

01:53:22   you're shooting through the optical viewfinder,

01:53:24   there is no screen on in that process.

01:53:26   There might be the metering sensor,

01:53:27   it might be active depending on the mode it's in,

01:53:29   whether it's certain things you're asleep or not,

01:53:30   but basically, there's no screens that are on.

01:53:32   So a DSLR that is just ready to shoot,

01:53:35   but not actually shooting a picture,

01:53:37   uses very little power, and that's one of the reasons

01:53:39   why DSLRs get so much better battery life

01:53:41   and these large full frame but still mirrorless cameras

01:53:44   that have lots of processing demands

01:53:46   but very small batteries.

01:53:47   So for the Sony, in order to save battery life,

01:53:50   I often need to flip it off when I'm using it.

01:53:53   If I'm not gonna be shooting for the next couple of minutes,

01:53:57   I'll just flip it off because if you don't,

01:54:00   like as you move around and the camera bounces off

01:54:03   your chest or off your side as you're walking around,

01:54:06   it'll detect, it'll think your eyes up against it,

01:54:09   so it'll turn on the EVF screen.

01:54:10   or then it'll think you're not against this,

01:54:12   it'll turn on the back screen.

01:54:13   So there's basically, there's always a screen being on

01:54:16   and the sensor being, capturing the data

01:54:19   and showing it to the screen.

01:54:20   So the power draw of these things is incredibly high

01:54:23   in just like walking around mixed shooting use.

01:54:27   And so you basically have to keep them switched off

01:54:29   when you're not shooting to save the battery.

01:54:31   So that means that every time you wanna take a shot,

01:54:33   if it was off, you gotta turn it on.

01:54:35   You gotta wait for it to boot up again.

01:54:36   So that's like a few seconds lost there.

01:54:38   And because of that, I have often missed shots.

01:54:41   Because as my kid is getting older, he's getting faster.

01:54:46   This is the thing that happens, I guess.

01:54:48   I'm learning this.

01:54:49   - It's the most dangerous game, toddlers.

01:54:52   - Exactly, exactly.

01:54:54   So basically, it is causing me to miss a lot of shots,

01:54:58   and it's causing me to not use certain features very well.

01:55:01   And these aren't the only examples, but basically,

01:55:03   in short, I'm not able to use the camera

01:55:06   its full potential because I need to baby the battery so much. It is a lot more inconvenient

01:55:12   than I expected to have a battery life that's this bad compared to SLRs, which I used for

01:55:16   years beforehand. An SLR, you can leave it on all day and it won't be a problem at all.

01:55:23   It'll be in a certain low power mode and if you lift it up and half press that shutter

01:55:27   button it is on in like a half second and ready to go. It's so fast for an SLR to exit

01:55:33   at the on but idle state, bam, it's right there.

01:55:36   Like it's so fast.

01:55:37   So and you can, and when it's in that on idle state,

01:55:40   it uses so little power, you can literally leave it there

01:55:42   for like all day or even days and the battery won't die.

01:55:45   It's incredible like how big SLR batteries are

01:55:48   and how long they last relative to a mirrorless camera

01:55:50   like this.

01:55:51   So maybe a month after I got the Sony,

01:55:54   I had picked up our old 5D Mark II

01:55:56   'cause Tiff still uses the 5D Mark II most of the time.

01:55:59   So about a month after I got the Sony,

01:56:00   I was already getting used to it

01:56:01   and I picked up the 5D Mark II and I thought,

01:56:02   This is the largest, heaviest dinosaur I've ever felt.

01:56:06   This is crazy.

01:56:07   I'm so glad I moved to mirrorless, et cetera.

01:56:10   Now, a year and a couple of months in,

01:56:13   now that I am more accustomed to the limitations

01:56:16   and annoyingness of this particular mirrorless camera,

01:56:19   and to some degree of mirrorless cameras in general.

01:56:22   This past weekend, I picked up Tiff's camera

01:56:24   to take a few shots,

01:56:25   'cause she had my favorite lens mount on it,

01:56:27   the 135 millimeter Canon F2.

01:56:31   We wanted to take a quick shot outside.

01:56:32   I picked up this camera and I took a few shots

01:56:35   with the 135 of my kid being cute in a pumpkin patch.

01:56:39   I just flew on it.

01:56:41   It was like night and day.

01:56:43   I thought, having been out of practice

01:56:45   with that camera's control scheme for a year

01:56:48   and it being an eight year old camera

01:56:51   compared to my awesome high end new Sony,

01:56:54   I thought this would be slower,

01:56:56   I wouldn't be able to get things in focus

01:56:59   'cause the focus system is so primitive

01:57:01   in the old 5D Mark II compared to what we have today.

01:57:04   I thought the picture wouldn't look as good

01:57:05   'cause there's so much lower resolution,

01:57:06   the sensor is so old and crappy.

01:57:08   And the reality is, not only did I fly on the controls,

01:57:12   but I nailed tons of shots very quickly

01:57:14   because just shooting with an SLR,

01:57:17   especially a good SLR like the 5D series,

01:57:20   is so much faster than a full-frame mirrorless.

01:57:23   And I know there are smaller,

01:57:25   non-full-frame mirrorless cameras.

01:57:27   There's lots that are in the APS-C sensor size range

01:57:30   micro four thirds size range.

01:57:31   And because these process smaller sensors

01:57:34   with a lot fewer pixels, they often are a lot faster.

01:57:38   And it is also possible, I know,

01:57:40   to make a full frame camera that is very, very fast

01:57:42   because at XOXO I was able to briefly use a friend's Leica,

01:57:47   is it the Q?

01:57:49   The one with the fixed 28 millimeter lens, whatever it is?

01:57:52   It was one of the Leica $5,000 mirrorless things.

01:57:56   And it was amazing how incredibly fast

01:57:59   and responsive it was.

01:58:00   That's what I noticed immediately about that camera.

01:58:02   And honestly, I don't love the idea

01:58:03   of a fixed 28 millimeter lens

01:58:04   being the only lens in a camera,

01:58:05   even though that's technically what the iPhone is.

01:58:08   But anyway, so the Leica Q is not probably for me,

01:58:13   but wow, was it nice to use a fast camera again.

01:58:16   So I used that at XOXO about a month ago.

01:58:19   Over this weekend, I used TIFF's XLR,

01:58:21   or TIFF's SLR XLR.

01:58:23   I'm in the audio world too much.

01:58:25   I basically realized that, oh my God,

01:58:27   but I really love a fast pro handling camera.

01:58:31   Like, as I was talking a couple of weeks ago

01:58:33   about the difference between like pro hardware

01:58:36   and non-pro hardware, one of the things I was describing

01:58:39   about ProStuff and the concept of cameras is like,

01:58:41   ProStuff is not only like durable and made to tolerate

01:58:46   extreme conditions better and usually has better service,

01:58:50   but also ProStuff just handles faster

01:58:52   and it has more controls.

01:58:53   And it doesn't always necessarily have to be the smallest,

01:58:57   It doesn't always necessarily have to be technically

01:58:58   the best by certain measures,

01:59:00   but it has to be reliable and fast

01:59:04   and have easy, accessible controls

01:59:06   that you can use without looking and stuff like that.

01:59:08   That's what pro gear is.

01:59:09   And I just realized that I just love pro cameras

01:59:13   and that the Sony, in some ways, isn't a pro camera

01:59:17   in the ways that I am considering here.

01:59:19   Not in all ways, of course.

01:59:21   And certainly, technically, it is shockingly good

01:59:24   in the picture quality that you get out of it.

01:59:26   and the optical quality that you get

01:59:28   from the amazing Sony FE lenses is also fantastic.

01:59:32   But I think I might switch back to SLRs.

01:59:35   'Cause here's what happened in the meantime.

01:59:37   Canon released the 5D Mark IV.

01:59:39   And the 5D Mark, so the main problems I had

01:59:41   with Canon before, that one of the reasons

01:59:43   that I wanted to jump to Sony in the first place,

01:59:47   Canon was falling way behind on their sensor technology.

01:59:51   Their sensors were really not competitive

01:59:53   with the amount of noise at high ISO levels

01:59:56   in low light and they were really not competitive

01:59:58   in dynamic range in things like the amount of detail

02:00:01   that you can recover in shadows of a picture.

02:00:04   Basically what happened with the 5D Mark IV,

02:00:07   they didn't become class leading in those areas,

02:00:10   but they got very close.

02:00:12   Sony and therefore Nikon cameras that also use Sony sensors,

02:00:16   they are still ahead in high ISO noise levels

02:00:20   and in dynamic range and in resolution in some levels.

02:00:23   but the new Canon 5D Mark IV came very close

02:00:28   to these levels.

02:00:29   In my opinion, in most ways, probably close enough.

02:00:33   It also has a fast autofocus system,

02:00:35   it has insane battery life, it has pro controls,

02:00:38   pro durability, it is giant and heavy, but I want one.

02:00:42   So, Tiff's getting one.

02:00:43   It arrived about a half hour before the show started.

02:00:46   I haven't had a chance to unbox it yet and try it yet,

02:00:48   ask me again next week, but basically, Tiff is getting one,

02:00:53   and I'm going to play with it.

02:00:54   And if I end up liking it, I might get one as well

02:00:59   and then sell the Sony gear, but we will see.

02:01:01   - I did not see this coming.

02:01:04   - Neither did I.

02:01:04   Until, it was really like, you know,

02:01:07   it really required me to have the Sony for long enough

02:01:10   to get to know its flaws, and then to have the Canon again

02:01:15   in my hands and to see just how incredibly awesome

02:01:19   a pro-grade SLR is when you haven't used one for a while,

02:01:23   and in the ways that the Sony annoys me.

02:01:25   And it is giant.

02:01:27   I mean, no, it is still huge and it is heavy

02:01:30   and the lenses are bigger and heavier,

02:01:33   but it is really compelling.

02:01:35   To answer expressly in the chat,

02:01:38   asking, basically asking, what about Nikon SLRs?

02:01:42   And I rented a D750 about a year and a half ago

02:01:46   before I decided to get the Sony.

02:01:47   I was kind of figuring out like, you know,

02:01:48   which of the various Sony-sensored cameras do I want.

02:01:52   And of course the D750 and D810 were on that list to try.

02:01:56   And the main reason that I chose against the Nikon,

02:01:59   one was that the Canon controls just kind of get along

02:02:03   with me a little bit better.

02:02:05   And Tiff has said the same thing.

02:02:06   She also prefers the Canon control standards and layout.

02:02:09   And maybe that's just what we're used to, who knows?

02:02:11   Probably, right?

02:02:12   But you know, there's something there.

02:02:14   And secondarily, that Nikon had some holes

02:02:18   in the lens lineup that we liked.

02:02:20   And Canon is doing really well

02:02:24   with their lens lineup recently.

02:02:26   For a while, their lenses were,

02:02:28   they've always been great, and great to pretty good, right?

02:02:32   But they were getting a little bit

02:02:33   long in the tooth in certain ones.

02:02:35   And in the last couple of years,

02:02:36   they have released a handful of incredible new lenses,

02:02:40   one of which I ordered with this 5D Mark IV to try,

02:02:43   the new 35 millimeter F2 IS.

02:02:46   and I mean if I ever wanna go with the zoom again,

02:02:49   the new 24-70 2.8 is shockingly good.

02:02:52   If I wanna go faster on the 35 eventually,

02:02:54   even though it's giant and heavy,

02:02:56   the 35 1.4 is shockingly good.

02:02:59   There's a whole bunch of basically modern Canon lenses

02:03:01   that are amazing.

02:03:02   The Canon 40 millimeter pancake is incredibly small

02:03:07   and light and short and incredibly good

02:03:09   and costs almost nothing.

02:03:11   I mean there's a lot here.

02:03:12   So Nikon definitely has the best sensors

02:03:17   that are available in SLRs because they are Sony sensors.

02:03:20   But I think Canon wins me over

02:03:23   for lenses and control layout.

02:03:26   And because the Canon sensor is now close

02:03:29   in the qualities that matter to me,

02:03:31   that's kinda what's keeping me here.

02:03:34   - So tell me again why you're not really considering

02:03:38   Micro Four Thirds.

02:03:39   And I'm not saying that it's the best option,

02:03:41   But it seems to me as a novice photographer

02:03:46   that only kind of understands,

02:03:48   it's smaller than a full on SLR.

02:03:53   My battery life, I have the problem of,

02:03:56   oh crap, I haven't charged this thing in forever

02:03:58   and now I really need it and it's nearly dead

02:04:01   because I've used my camera a ton

02:04:03   and the battery lasts forever

02:04:05   and I just don't think about it, right?

02:04:05   You know, it's like your cell phone

02:04:07   back when you would go a week between charging it.

02:04:09   It would be that day that you'd be like, "Oh, crap, I completely forgot to do this last

02:04:13   night."

02:04:14   Anyways, battery life lasts a long time.

02:04:16   It starts up pretty darn quickly.

02:04:18   It does have the problem of one of the two screens always being on, if not both, which

02:04:22   is a little frustrating.

02:04:23   But again, the battery life is great.

02:04:26   The Wi-Fi is super easy to turn on and off.

02:04:30   The app that Olympus has for your phone does a perfectly sufficient job of tracking your

02:04:37   whereabouts if you tell it to. It doesn't do it automatically, but you go into the app,

02:04:42   you tell it, "Hey, start tracking where I am," and then when you're done, you get on

02:04:45   the Wi-Fi, which again is very easy, and you have the app send that geodata to the camera,

02:04:51   and it'll geotag all your photos. I mean, in many ways, it seems like it would be a

02:04:56   good fit. So what gives you pause, just that you haven't tried it and you're familiar with

02:05:00   the Canon?

02:05:01   Well, and so first of all, the 5D Mark IV also has GPS built in?

02:05:06   - Oh, that's super nice.

02:05:08   - Some of the reviews were saying,

02:05:09   like, you can leave it, there's like two modes.

02:05:11   One of them is like kind of a more continuous one,

02:05:13   and one of them's kind of like a lighter, lower power one

02:05:15   that just kind of less periodically updates the GPS,

02:05:18   and that is apparently pretty nice on the battery.

02:05:20   And so not only can it geotag your stuff built in,

02:05:23   but it also automatically sets its clock,

02:05:25   which is awesome, because one of the long-standing

02:05:27   annoyances with anybody who tries to use a separate camera

02:05:29   that's not their phone, and then mix those photos

02:05:31   into their libraries, is that if your camera's clock is off

02:05:35   by a little bit or by a few hours if you travel.

02:05:37   That sucks and it messes up all your stuff, right?

02:05:39   So anyway, so built-in GPS and Wi-Fi

02:05:42   and in a battery that can probably handle it, right?

02:05:46   'Cause it's a large camera with a large battery

02:05:49   so that can probably handle it.

02:05:50   There is perfectly valid reasons to go with smaller cameras.

02:05:56   There are great reasons why most people

02:05:58   should go with smaller cameras.

02:05:59   Most people also shouldn't roast their own coffee.

02:06:02   Most people shouldn't be waiting for Mac Pros,

02:06:05   and most people should not have the 15-inch MacBook Pro.

02:06:08   Most people should get a smaller MacBook Pro than 15 inches.

02:06:11   I, however, am a picky apple.

02:06:14   I have learned this about myself,

02:06:15   as everyone else did long before I did,

02:06:18   but basically, (laughing)

02:06:20   because I am a picky apple,

02:06:23   I know myself now well enough to know

02:06:25   that if I get anything that is not the biggest,

02:06:29   best, most pro option for something.

02:06:33   I am likely to be frustrated by its limitations.

02:06:37   - Eh, but that's not always true.

02:06:38   You don't have a P85D or P90D, you have a 90D.

02:06:43   - Right, so there are cases, and by the way,

02:06:45   I still stand by that decision.

02:06:46   I love my car, it is plenty fast enough,

02:06:49   and I love the amount of range it has.

02:06:51   And I love I didn't spend 20 grand more for it.

02:06:53   (laughs)

02:06:54   So all those things are great.

02:06:56   So this isn't true in everything

02:06:58   that I buy or use, but in certain areas

02:07:01   that I care strongly about, things like the computer I use,

02:07:05   the camera I use, I have learned basically that like,

02:07:09   for cameras, there is the iPhone,

02:07:13   which handles a lot of my photography needs

02:07:16   because it's always in my pocket.

02:07:18   So there's the iPhone, it's amazing for a lot of things.

02:07:21   Its camera is very good considering it's a phone camera.

02:07:26   That being said, it is not as good as a regular camera.

02:07:28   My thinking is, if I'm going to carry a regular camera

02:07:32   at all, and this is part of the reason it led me

02:07:33   to the Sony in the first place,

02:07:35   being like the largest mirrorless camera that's out there,

02:07:39   if I'm going to carry a camera at all,

02:07:43   I don't worry about carrying a camera

02:07:44   that can fit in my pocket anymore.

02:07:46   Because cameras that can fit in my pocket

02:07:48   are usually not any better than the iPhone.

02:07:50   And so the iPhone solves that role for me.

02:07:52   What I want is either the iPhone or a camera

02:07:57   that I will carry separately, in which case

02:07:59   I want it to be the best camera that it can possibly be.

02:08:01   A long time ago, when we first bought our 5D Mark II

02:08:04   in 2008, I first tried a full-frame camera,

02:08:09   and that ruined me forever.

02:08:11   And now, if I'm going to carry a camera

02:08:14   that is not my iPhone, I want it to be full-frame.

02:08:17   And while the smaller sensors have made tremendous progress

02:08:22   in recent years, and there are lots of amazing cameras

02:08:26   that have micro four thirds or APS-C sized sensors.

02:08:30   Full frame is still a step above in areas I care about,

02:08:34   in noise, in quality, in optics.

02:08:38   Full frame cameras have a lot of advantages

02:08:40   because of that much larger sensor size

02:08:43   that these smaller cameras just won't match,

02:08:45   and there are downsides to it.

02:08:46   There are major downsides.

02:08:47   Obviously, cost is a big one, size is a big one,

02:08:50   And as mentioned earlier, speed is a big one

02:08:52   because now you have these giant sensors

02:08:54   that take more battery life to power

02:08:56   and then they have to have more electronics behind them

02:08:58   to convert all the pixel data

02:09:00   and they have the image processor dealing

02:09:01   with way more image data

02:09:02   'cause it's way more megapixels and stuff like that.

02:09:05   So there are downsides to full frame.

02:09:07   But generally, if I'm going to be shooting

02:09:09   with anything that is not my iPhone,

02:09:10   I want it to be the opposite extreme.

02:09:12   I want it to be the best it can possibly be.

02:09:15   And for me, that's a full frame SLR.

02:09:17   - Yeah, that makes sense.

02:09:18   I mean, to kind of come to your defense for a moment

02:09:21   and argue with myself, the Micro Four Thirds that I have,

02:09:24   I don't have any pancake lenses for it.

02:09:26   I have a, I think it's a 25 millimeter,

02:09:29   if I remember right, that I use most often,

02:09:32   but we just picked up, as we've talked about on and off,

02:09:34   this 35 to 100 millimeter zoom,

02:09:37   which I know zooms is not for everyone,

02:09:39   as you were talking about earlier,

02:09:40   but I happen to like having the option.

02:09:43   And I tell you what, with that zoom lens on,

02:09:45   this camera is not small.

02:09:47   I mean, it's already not small with the prime,

02:09:49   but it is really not small with the zoom.

02:09:52   And so I'm not sure that I'm really saving that much

02:09:57   over a full on DSLR.

02:09:58   I mean, it's certainly smaller,

02:10:00   but it's not night and day by any stretch of the imagination.

02:10:04   - Yeah, and the Sony has the same issue

02:10:06   where there are a few,

02:10:08   there's a small number of small prime lenses

02:10:11   for the Sony FE mount that are great.

02:10:13   And the one I keep on the camera

02:10:14   the vast majority of the time is the 35 millimeter

02:10:16   F2.8 Sony prime.

02:10:19   It's great.

02:10:20   If you want more light intake,

02:10:22   or if you want a zoom that is not horrible,

02:10:25   it does get very big and heavy very quickly,

02:10:27   because that's just what it takes.

02:10:28   Like if you have a full frame sensor

02:10:31   and you need a lot of light to hit that

02:10:34   in a way that doesn't suck,

02:10:35   and if you wanna have a zoom lens

02:10:37   to have the versatility of that,

02:10:39   you're gonna have this giant heavy piece of glass on there.

02:10:42   So the size benefit for mirrorless cameras, I think,

02:10:46   mostly only holds if either you're willing to give up

02:10:49   a lot of quality and have a really crappy zoom,

02:10:51   in which case you can make them smaller,

02:10:52   or if you're using primes and not even very fast primes.

02:10:57   So that does represent a lot of my usage, certainly.

02:11:00   I mean, the 35 prime is what I have on there,

02:11:02   as I said, most of the time,

02:11:03   and so that combo is quite small.

02:11:05   And I was thinking, I thought actually,

02:11:07   if I'm going to switch back to SLRs,

02:11:09   I still might keep the Sony

02:11:10   and just keep that 35 millimeter prime

02:11:12   and have that be like my small setup if I ever need that.

02:11:15   But really once you have large glass on there,

02:11:20   the size of the body matters less

02:11:22   and actually becomes sometimes harder to use.

02:11:24   Like if you have a big imbalance

02:11:27   between like a giant heavy lens

02:11:28   on this tiny little mirrorless body,

02:11:30   it actually can be harder to handle.

02:11:32   So anyway, I'm ruined forever.

02:11:35   - I don't even know what you're talking about at this point.

02:11:39   I mean, you are probably one nice set of in-ear monitors

02:11:44   away from just going completely off the deep end.

02:11:47   - I mean, the good thing is I've already like,

02:11:50   my audio deep end, I already did that years ago.

02:11:53   Like I got my crazy headphones, I'm set there.

02:11:57   My crazy headphones are not even as crazy as they could be

02:12:00   or they were, like the headphones I ended up with

02:12:02   were not the biggest, heaviest, most expensive pair

02:12:05   that I ever owned or tried.

02:12:08   And the headphones I have, they have since been succeeded

02:12:12   by multiple new models that replaced them.

02:12:15   And I have not even had the desire to try them

02:12:17   'cause I like these headphones so much.

02:12:18   I haven't even tried the replacements.

02:12:20   So this is how I am with things.

02:12:22   I'll go crazy with something for a while,

02:12:24   but then I kinda get settled for a long time

02:12:26   once I find something really nice that I like.

02:12:30   - John, are you still liking your camera?

02:12:32   - Yeah, I'm watching the upgraded model

02:12:35   that has been announced.

02:12:37   - Yeah, that sucks.

02:12:38   - I might trade it, I don't know if it sucks

02:12:40   because I also found out that it's actually bigger.

02:12:42   I'm like, all right, well how much bigger?

02:12:44   Is it two millimeters bigger

02:12:45   or is it bigger in a way that I'll notice?

02:12:47   So that's the only wild card there

02:12:49   but if it is not that much bigger

02:12:52   and if the reviews say that it's basically my camera

02:12:54   but better in these such and such ways,

02:12:57   I'll probably sell this one and get that one.

02:12:59   - Yeah, because it got bigger

02:13:00   because it added in-body image stabilization.

02:13:03   And that, so it was a similar size increase

02:13:07   as when the A7 series went from the regular A7

02:13:10   to the A7 II line.

02:13:11   So I expect the size difference to be substantial

02:13:14   and I expect you're not going to like it.

02:13:16   However, you might want it anyway

02:13:18   because of the stabilization being pretty cool.

02:13:20   Now that being said, sensor stabilization is not as good

02:13:23   as having it in the lenses,

02:13:25   but when you have a lens that doesn't have it,

02:13:27   it's nice to have.

02:13:29   - I was thinking of stuff like,

02:13:30   oh, first of all, I think all of my lenses have it

02:13:31   at this point, or do all of them?

02:13:33   Let's see.

02:13:34   the I know my portrait one does does this one maybe it doesn't maybe my pancake one doesn't

02:13:42   but the other thing is it has a touch screen and so that could be good and like it's kind of weird

02:13:50   that this camera doesn't have one or it could be bad and the touch screen UI could be even worse

02:13:53   than using the little hat thingy so I'm gonna have to like the iPhone I think I'm gonna have to see

02:13:57   this in person and hold it and see what it's like and the only reason I'm considering trading up is

02:14:01   like I can reuse my lenses. I'm gonna buy that lens that my wife took on vacation, so

02:14:08   I will have three lenses and then just swapping out the body, suddenly the body is the least

02:14:12   expensive part of my camera setup. Shockingly for someone who, this is my first camera that

02:14:17   even has lenses, now I'm in the lens ecosystem and so I can swap out the bodies and hopefully

02:14:23   someone will be willing to buy my 6300 if the time comes, but yeah, I'll check it out.

02:14:28   - I mean, in all fairness, having more money being spent

02:14:32   on the glass than the body is generally

02:14:34   the right thing to do.

02:14:35   If you have to allocate funds somewhere between those two,

02:14:40   usually the lenses are the better use of the money

02:14:42   because not only can they last between multiple bodies,

02:14:44   but I'd rather have a great lens on a crappy camera

02:14:49   than the opposite.

02:14:51   - Yeah, I would, yeah.

02:14:53   If I look at the performance differences, this is not,

02:14:55   I don't expect that any other aspects of it

02:14:57   are gonna be phenomenally better.

02:14:59   I think the price actually has gone up a surprising amount,

02:15:03   so it's not a slam dunk that I'm gonna end up thinking

02:15:06   that this is better enough to justify that.

02:15:08   I think it went up like 500 bucks or something,

02:15:09   so I don't know, I might still wimp out

02:15:12   and just keep this camera, but we'll see.

02:15:14   - I do wanna quickly talk about video.

02:15:16   There's a couple of people in the chat talking about video.

02:15:19   The Sony is way better at video, no question.

02:15:22   And this is kind of like, ever since the 5D Mark II

02:15:25   that kind of introduced high-end video capabilities

02:15:29   to what were previously photo-only SLR categories.

02:15:33   Cameras have basically been focusing a lot on video features

02:15:37   because that's what the market is demanding.

02:15:39   And so you basically have video abilities creeping into

02:15:43   and in some ways dominating the development of cameras,

02:15:46   the features that go into them, the reviews,

02:15:47   what the reviews say about them, how they sell,

02:15:49   things like that.

02:15:50   If I mainly shot video on my camera,

02:15:53   I would stick with the Sony line

02:15:55   because I think those have been,

02:15:56   those have proven themselves to be the best regular cameras

02:15:59   that also shoot video, for video purpose.

02:16:03   However, I learned in the course of owning this camera

02:16:07   that I hardly ever shoot video on my camera

02:16:09   because my iPhone does a better job of it.

02:16:11   - Yep.

02:16:12   - I know this is not true for pros.

02:16:15   If you're like actually doing

02:16:15   like a professional video shoot,

02:16:18   fine, use a good camera, use a good everything.

02:16:20   That's not what we're doing here.

02:16:22   What I'm doing is shooting video of my kid running around

02:16:25   And for that purpose, the iPhone is better,

02:16:26   not only because it's always in my pocket,

02:16:28   but also the iPhone is way better at auto exposure,

02:16:31   auto focus, the built-in microphone is way better

02:16:34   at cutting out noise and crap.

02:16:36   So the video I get out of my iPhone

02:16:40   is substantially nicer in general to watch,

02:16:43   even though it is less technically good

02:16:45   as the video I get out of my fancy cameras.

02:16:48   So therefore, my camera use is only for photos,

02:16:54   and videos are shot on the phone?

02:16:55   - I'm the same way.

02:16:57   I know it's not exactly the same thing

02:16:59   because my camera only shoots 1080

02:17:02   and the iPhone will shoot 4K,

02:17:05   but especially with the 7

02:17:07   and the optical image stabilization that's in there,

02:17:10   I was stupefied at how good the OIS is.

02:17:14   We went pumpkin picking this past weekend,

02:17:17   and at the particular place we do that,

02:17:19   you get on a trailer that's towed behind

02:17:21   like a John Deere tractor,

02:17:23   they tote, you know, that you ride out to where the pumpkins are, and then you eventually get a ride back.

02:17:28   And as you can imagine, in a dirt field, you know, it's bumpy as crap. And I took a couple of short

02:17:34   videos on this trailer on the back of this tractor in a field in Virginia. And it certainly looks like

02:17:45   things are bumpy, but I can assure you that it looks way, way less bumpy on this video than the

02:17:52   the reality of the situation was as I'm like boinging all over the trailer behind this

02:17:57   tractor.

02:17:58   I mean, I could not believe my eyes at how good this image stabilization was.

02:18:03   It was truly tremendous.

02:18:05   [beeping]

02:18:07   [