189: The Museum of Pristine Apple Hardware


00:00:00   Let me just take a pause here so I can adjust my level some more.

00:00:02   I keep messing with my dials, it's killing me.

00:00:03   Alright, this is sounding better.

00:00:05   Why are you doing that to yourself?

00:00:06   It's the worst.

00:00:07   It's two dials.

00:00:08   It's a volume dial and a mix dial and like every time I think I have you at the right

00:00:12   volume then I talk and either I can't hear myself or I'm blasting my eardrums out.

00:00:17   So the rule of audio stuff is once you get it working, don't touch it.

00:00:19   Never touch it again.

00:00:20   I don't touch the dials but somebody or something touched my dials and now I have to.

00:00:27   - And the worst thing about these dials

00:00:29   is their tiny little dials don't even have markings on them.

00:00:31   So even if I did take a picture of them,

00:00:33   there's no, there's no.

00:00:34   - Yeah, my next suggestion was gonna be,

00:00:36   I actually, earlier tonight,

00:00:38   yesterday I had to change one of the settings

00:00:40   on my audio interface.

00:00:41   So today, as I was setting up for the show tonight,

00:00:43   I went and looked at my picture that I keep

00:00:45   of it set up correctly.

00:00:47   And I adjusted the knob that I had changed earlier

00:00:50   to match the photo of my correct setup.

00:00:53   It's something I highly recommend

00:00:54   if you have the ability to have an audio interface

00:00:56   where like it has knobs with lines on them

00:00:59   to show you where they are.

00:01:00   So you can actually like kind of basically save

00:01:02   and restore state in the most manual way possible.

00:01:05   - Yeah, you remember what this microphone looks like,

00:01:07   the one I'm using, like it has these tiny little,

00:01:09   like almost like a little, they're horizontal,

00:01:12   they're inside the device

00:01:13   and only the little curved part of them is peeking out

00:01:16   and there's no markings on them.

00:01:17   It's no good.

00:01:18   The only thing I take pictures of in that way

00:01:19   is how cables are connected in the back of my AV setup

00:01:22   and how things are arranged on shelves.

00:01:25   (laughing)

00:01:27   - Okay, the cables make sense.

00:01:28   The shelves, like, first of all,

00:01:30   how often do things get moved on your shelves

00:01:33   that this would even be a problem?

00:01:34   And second of all, who cares?

00:01:35   - Surprisingly often enough, I mean,

00:01:37   what I recently did was flip to one of my shelves,

00:01:38   so these big wooden shelves, they're like bowing,

00:01:40   and I wanted to flip it over, right?

00:01:42   And so I have to take a shot of the shelf

00:01:44   so I know where everything goes,

00:01:45   then take everything off, then flip it over,

00:01:48   and then put everything back on.

00:01:50   - I went to the Apple store, twice actually,

00:01:55   wants to buy some dongles just to have them, even though I haven't really needed them yet

00:01:59   for $10 a pop, why not buy a few? So I bought three to sprinkle around the house/cars. And

00:02:05   I briefly looked at the matte black, and I don't remember if this was before or after

00:02:08   the show, I want to say it was before the last show, and it was pretty but I prefer

00:02:12   the aesthetics of, oh I'm sorry, the jet black, it was pretty but I prefer the aesthetics

00:02:16   of the matte black. So the jet black, definitely a good looking phone, prefer the matte. But

00:02:20   then I think it was during the show that you guys, or at least you Marco and I were talking

00:02:24   about it and you asked me or somebody asked me if it felt any tackier and tackier in the

00:02:30   sense of like stickier if you will.

00:02:32   And it occurred to me I didn't really pay much attention to that which is kind of crazy.

00:02:35   I don't know why I didn't think about it but I went back to the Apple store and spent about

00:02:40   45 seconds there and I grabbed the one Jet Black demo unit that they have and I tell

00:02:48   you what, based on feel there is no question that is the one to get.

00:02:52   without a shadow of a doubt, it feels so much better,

00:02:56   tackiness-wise, stickiness-wise, if you will,

00:02:59   than the matte black.

00:03:00   I still think the matte black looks better,

00:03:03   but oh, night and day, the jet black feels so much better,

00:03:06   and you are absolutely right.

00:03:07   So #marcoisright.

00:03:09   - All right, I finally got one.

00:03:11   I'm wrong about so many other things.

00:03:12   (laughing)

00:03:14   - Yeah, well, you can't win 'em all.

00:03:16   Sort of kind of speaking of, last we spoke,

00:03:20   You seemed like you were starting to warm to the home button.

00:03:24   Have you completely warmed to it?

00:03:26   Are you back to giving it the cold shoulder?

00:03:28   Where are you standing with the home button?

00:03:31   - It's fine.

00:03:32   You know, it's, when I go back and use an old phone, now it feels old, so it's like,

00:03:37   "Thanks a lot, Apple, you ruined buttons."

00:03:39   (laughing)

00:03:42   But so I suppose that means I like it.

00:03:45   It is a little bit annoying that it has become,

00:03:48   that it took something that was reliable

00:03:52   and made it just a little bit less than reliable.

00:03:54   And that's kinda, I mean, this is, you know,

00:03:56   the motto of so many other things,

00:03:59   or like this is like the modus operandi

00:04:01   of like so much of the progress we've made

00:04:03   in these areas recently, where like,

00:04:05   yeah, you made the old thing better in a lot of ways,

00:04:08   but, you know, worse in some other, you know,

00:04:11   smaller maybe, or less important to most people way.

00:04:15   But anyway, overall I like it, but I do find it unfortunate

00:04:19   that it has become a little bit less reliable

00:04:21   than a regular button.

00:04:23   - Do you find yourself running into that often?

00:04:25   Because I definitely have had a couple of times,

00:04:27   well maybe more than a couple, but every once in a while

00:04:30   I will find that I think I've hit the button

00:04:32   and the phone does not agree.

00:04:34   But it's pretty darn rare.

00:04:36   But from the way you're talking,

00:04:37   it sounds like it's somewhat common for you?

00:04:39   - No, I mean I just hit the button a lot.

00:04:40   You know, to me, this is one of the problems I have

00:04:43   with the Force Touch trackpad on the Max

00:04:46   is that the Force Touch trackpad took something,

00:04:49   if you were one of the people who clicked

00:04:51   in the bottom area of the trackpad,

00:04:53   and I recognize the Force Touch is better

00:04:55   because you can click anywhere on the surface,

00:04:57   but if you were one of the people

00:04:58   who came along the old track

00:05:00   where the buttons used to be below it,

00:05:01   so you'd hit the button with your thumb

00:05:03   and you'd point with your index finger or something,

00:05:05   or usually your middle finger, I guess,

00:05:07   and then when they removed the buttons,

00:05:09   they made the whole thing hinge that way

00:05:11   so that you could basically leave your hand

00:05:13   the same way it always was.

00:05:15   You could leave your thumb pushing down on the bottom area

00:05:18   where the buttons used to be and have that click

00:05:21   and then still move with your index or middle finger.

00:05:24   So if you're one of those people who came along,

00:05:27   the old button felt great because you were already clicking

00:05:29   always in the bottom area anyway.

00:05:32   So if you're one of those people, which of course I am

00:05:34   because we're all ancient, comparable to people

00:05:36   who like to use Snapchat and stuff.

00:05:38   So if you're one of those people,

00:05:40   the old one was incredibly reliable.

00:05:42   The idea that you would ever,

00:05:44   assuming you don't use touch to click,

00:05:45   the idea that you would ever accidentally click on something

00:05:49   on the trackpad or think you're clicking

00:05:52   but not have actually clicked,

00:05:53   that literally would never happen with the old ones.

00:05:57   And with force touch trackpads, that sometimes happens.

00:06:00   Similarly with the new home button on the phones.

00:06:03   It's really hard to accidentally hit the home button

00:06:05   on the old phones.

00:06:06   If you mean to hit it, you'll hit it.

00:06:08   And with this one, you can occasionally accidentally push it

00:06:12   where you meant to maybe just touch it

00:06:14   or you meant to grip it a certain way

00:06:17   or you can accidentally triple click

00:06:19   when you meant to double click or single click

00:06:20   or vice versa.

00:06:22   You can accidentally trigger Siri if you didn't mean to.

00:06:24   You can accidentally, this is a frequent one,

00:06:25   accidentally trigger reachability

00:06:27   by if you think you're pushing it

00:06:29   or think you're holding it

00:06:30   or think you're double pressing it

00:06:31   but you actually just double contact it, I guess,

00:06:33   whatever the reachability thing is called.

00:06:35   So basically, they took something that, again,

00:06:38   was a mechanically generally reliable thing

00:06:41   and made it do the wrong thing maybe 1% of the time.

00:06:46   For me, it's very frustrating when an input device

00:06:49   doesn't respond 100% of the time correctly

00:06:53   because we use input devices so much on these computers

00:06:57   and we use them to command them to do things

00:06:59   that if you hit the keyboard,

00:07:02   if you hit the same key over and over again

00:07:04   and every one out of 40 times

00:07:07   like the H throws out a J instead,

00:07:09   like this is the worst keyboard ever,

00:07:11   like why would you tolerate that, right?

00:07:14   I feel like I have a very, very high standard

00:07:17   for how I expect my input devices to be,

00:07:20   how reliable I expect them to be,

00:07:22   and it does annoy me when we make progress,

00:07:26   but at the cost of that reliability that we used to have.

00:07:29   And anything less than 100% reliability for me is annoying.

00:07:33   And that's not to say that I won't just deal with it,

00:07:37   Like when the new laptops come out forever from now.

00:07:39   (laughs)

00:07:40   Whenever the new laptops come out,

00:07:43   I'm probably gonna buy one,

00:07:44   even though it's almost certainly going to have

00:07:46   the same ForceTux trackpad we've had,

00:07:48   and I'm just gonna have to suck it up and deal with it,

00:07:49   and it'll be fine.

00:07:50   Just like, I'm probably never going to mention

00:07:54   the home button being unreliable a little bit on the iPhone 7.

00:07:57   I'm probably never gonna mention it again,

00:07:58   because I'm just gonna get used to it,

00:07:59   and I'll just be a little bit annoyed

00:08:01   whenever it doesn't work,

00:08:02   but then just move on with my day, right?

00:08:03   But we are losing something here

00:08:05   by making things that were 100% reliable, 99% reliable.

00:08:09   And that's all, but overall, I'm okay with it.

00:08:13   - I like the idea that you're never gonna mention it again.

00:08:15   - Yeah, maybe I shouldn't guarantee that.

00:08:18   - Seems very unlikely.

00:08:19   - But just again, just to restate the summary here,

00:08:24   overall, I like the new button.

00:08:25   I do like the Taptic Engine a lot overall,

00:08:28   and when I go back, the old one does feel old,

00:08:32   so they got me, right?

00:08:34   and I'm sold, however, it is a little annoying

00:08:37   that it can't be 100% reliable.

00:08:40   - So I don't know about this home button

00:08:41   'cause I still haven't tried it,

00:08:42   but as for the trackpad, I continue to say

00:08:44   that you will eventually look back on the mechanical ones

00:08:47   and think they're barbaric,

00:08:48   and I would add that for most people,

00:08:50   maybe not you, but for most people I've seen

00:08:52   and myself included, using the mechanical one,

00:08:54   whether it was the button or the one

00:08:56   where it didn't have a button but the whole thing slanted,

00:08:58   not 100% reliable.

00:09:00   Very frequently, attempt to click and not actually click

00:09:03   if you're not using tap to click.

00:09:05   Happens to me every once in a while,

00:09:06   I see it to happen to people all the time.

00:09:08   So it's not, there's more to the reliability

00:09:12   than just like if you successfully actuate the mechanism,

00:09:16   you will do a click.

00:09:19   'Cause that's true of anything.

00:09:19   You successfully accurate the mechanism

00:09:22   on the non-moving button,

00:09:23   you will successfully get a home button press or whatever.

00:09:26   It's just a question of do people sometimes go for it

00:09:28   and fail to do it?

00:09:29   And the answer for those real buttons is yes.

00:09:32   I mean, maybe the percentage was different for you,

00:09:34   but it's not as if anything is 100% reliable

00:09:38   when it comes to translating intention and hand action

00:09:42   into like the desired result.

00:09:45   - Yeah, I gotta say, I almost never run into problems.

00:09:48   Like I said earlier, a couple of times a new home button,

00:09:51   because I've hit it in such a way

00:09:52   that maybe I've hit solely the quote unquote button itself

00:09:56   and I haven't had any contact with the ring around it,

00:09:59   But very rarely do I have any problems with the home button.

00:10:03   And I cannot remember a time where I've had

00:10:05   an unintentional fire or a lack of fire

00:10:08   on the Force Touch trackpad.

00:10:09   So you must be a trackpad wizard in a bad way

00:10:12   because you are the only one that can find these issues.

00:10:15   Well, not the only one, but the only one I've heard of

00:10:17   that has found these issues.

00:10:18   So congrats, I guess?

00:10:20   I'm not really sure where to go from here.

00:10:22   - You still don't have a Force Touch trackpad

00:10:24   other than the one you use for podcast editing, right?

00:10:26   The Matic trackpad?

00:10:27   - That's right.

00:10:28   So I think that's also influencing you because we have one of those magic trackpads too,

00:10:31   and I hate trackpads in general, and I don't really like that magic trackpad either, but

00:10:34   I think once you get the new laptops that we're assuming they will someday release and

00:10:38   it has the trackpad, that's, I think that's when your real transition is going to be.

00:10:41   Because I was wondering, like, why is your opinion of this not getting better?

00:10:44   The only thing you're using is that thing.

00:10:45   I find that thing frustrating in that very frequently I'm trying to press anywhere on

00:10:50   the thing to make it click and it just doesn't, it feels like I'm pressing against a wall

00:10:55   that doesn't move.

00:10:56   and it does the little vibration thing,

00:10:58   and it eventually works, but it just,

00:11:00   it feels so much more awkward to me to press it anywhere,

00:11:04   in a way that it doesn't when I use

00:11:06   the four-star track pads on the big laptops.

00:11:09   - Yeah, I mean, look, the home button,

00:11:11   turns out, after you use it for a day,

00:11:14   you completely stop noticing it as a thing that is different

00:11:17   except for when it accuses it of the wrong thing.

00:11:20   But overall, it is really not a substantial problem at all,

00:11:23   and in some ways, it's a benefit.

00:11:24   So it is not a, if you don't yet have an iPhone 7,

00:11:28   the home button change is not a good enough reason

00:11:31   to not get one, if that was your only reason.

00:11:34   - Well, I would say, yeah, I mean, I prefer it now.

00:11:37   And as we spoke about last episode,

00:11:39   I hated it for the first, I don't know, day or so.

00:11:43   And then I've quickly come around and now I freaking love it.

00:11:45   And like you said, the little taptic touches

00:11:47   that are throughout the OS,

00:11:49   like on spinners and things like that,

00:11:51   I really, really like them.

00:11:52   I think they're really well done.

00:11:53   I'm looking forward to those little Taptic touches proliferating through third-party

00:11:59   apps as well.

00:12:00   So we'll see.

00:12:01   Moving on, listener Sid sent me an email, and I think this went only to me earlier today.

00:12:07   They had the same weird issue with their 5K iMac and OWC RAM.

00:12:15   And apparently they had gone back and forth with OWC trying different sticks.

00:12:20   And then just recently they sent an email to me, forwarded an email to me from OWC,

00:12:27   and it said a few things, but most interestingly, this is from OWC, "We have recently located

00:12:32   a coding fault in these modules and are currently refreshing our stock in order to rectify this."

00:12:38   I don't know what a coding fault is in terms of RAM, maybe one of you guys do, but it seems

00:12:43   that something genuinely was broken with the RAM and they've recognized it and they're

00:12:48   they're trying to fix it.

00:12:50   My computer had been up, I think, 10 or 15ish days

00:12:54   before I installed Sierra.

00:12:56   It's been eight days since then.

00:12:58   I wouldn't call that an absolute victory

00:13:01   for my replacement sticks, which I did get from OWC,

00:13:04   but certainly all signs are pointing to good news.

00:13:06   And so I just thought that was kind of interesting.

00:13:09   Do you guys have any idea what a coding fault would mean

00:13:11   in terms of RAM?

00:13:13   - I mean, there's probably some kind of like timing

00:13:16   and stuff, like RAM, obviously everything,

00:13:18   Every component in a computer is now

00:13:20   way more complicated than it used to be,

00:13:22   or way more complicated than we think it is.

00:13:23   So like there's, you know, a RAM stick

00:13:25   could have firmware for all I know.

00:13:27   Who knows?

00:13:28   You know, RAM has all these like tight timings

00:13:30   and controllers and everything in them,

00:13:32   so it could be lots of things like that.

00:13:35   - Fair enough.

00:13:36   Jon, you don't have anything to add, I assume?

00:13:38   - I got no idea what a coding fault is.

00:13:40   - Fair enough, all right.

00:13:42   At least I'm not alone, that makes me feel slightly better.

00:13:44   All right, moving on.

00:13:45   We also got word that, from Scott O'Reilly among other people, that the headphone jack

00:13:51   issue that he had reported in 10.0.0 has been fixed in 10.0.2.

00:13:56   So if you recall, if you had your, I believe it was only with the dongle, is that right?

00:14:01   Or generally speaking it was with the dongle.

00:14:03   You had some headphones, like perhaps the older earbuds, plugged into the lightning

00:14:08   to headphone dongle, and you paused something and let it sit for five or more minutes, then

00:14:12   then the buttons on the headphones would not allow you

00:14:16   to unpause them or unpause the playback.

00:14:18   And so Scott O'Reilly has reported in

00:14:21   that this is now fixed.

00:14:22   So good news.

00:14:23   - Cool. - I'm excited about that.

00:14:25   Eduardo Pellegrino wrote in to talk to us

00:14:28   about how volume works on Bluetooth.

00:14:31   So I don't know, Marco, do you wanna take care of this?

00:14:33   - Yeah, we'll go over it quickly.

00:14:34   Basically, we were discussing in previous episodes

00:14:36   about the question of whether Bluetooth

00:14:39   was re-encoding the audio to be sent over the air

00:14:42   between the phone and Bluetooth headsets.

00:14:44   One of the issues raised if you tried not to re-encode

00:14:47   the audio was that we said you probably

00:14:49   couldn't change the volume.

00:14:50   Eduardo Pellegrino wrote in to basically tell us

00:14:52   that with any modern Bluetooth peripheral,

00:14:54   the digital signal is at full amplitude

00:14:56   and the volume control is being applied only at the headset.

00:14:59   The volume level is negotiated

00:15:01   between the phone and the headset.

00:15:03   There's all sorts of stuff involved in the AVRCP spec.

00:15:07   In almost every case of modern Bluetooth headphones,

00:15:11   the signals being sent at full volume from the phone

00:15:14   and the headphone itself is applying

00:15:16   the volume reduction or whatever to it.

00:15:19   - So that shows you could be sending the AAC more easily,

00:15:22   but the important part of the volume thing

00:15:25   is we're talking about how like, oh,

00:15:26   sometimes you can just, like the volume,

00:15:28   you control the volume on your phone,

00:15:29   it changes on your headphones,

00:15:31   that's actually working in the opposite direction

00:15:32   and that when you do that, it's the headset and the phone

00:15:36   negotiating that when they press the volume buttons

00:15:39   the phone, send a signal to the headphones, like the phone is controlling the headphone

00:15:43   volume, the headphones are not controlling the phone volume, you know what I mean?

00:15:46   Like when you press that button, you're actually sending a signal to the headphones to say,

00:15:50   "Oh, back over at the phone, they said they want the volume lower," and then the headset,

00:15:54   the Bluetooth device itself, lowers the volume.

00:15:57   Then, we also heard word, or we've already heard word, that there are three digital-to-analog

00:16:02   converters in the iPhone 7, and we weren't really sure why, and we got some feedback

00:16:08   with the theory. Marco, do you want to talk about this?

00:16:10   - Yeah, this was, I think, my favorite thing

00:16:13   I heard this week.

00:16:15   So we got an email back, and it was from somebody

00:16:17   who wanted to remain anonymous, but it seemed

00:16:19   like they kind of had this as known information,

00:16:22   not speculation.

00:16:23   So there are basically three audio chips in the iPhone 7,

00:16:28   and we couldn't figure out what the third one was for.

00:16:29   We're like, well, maybe they're using it

00:16:31   just for convenience, for cable routing, whatever else.

00:16:33   So this person wrote in to tell us that what it's actually

00:16:35   used for is the Taptic Engine.

00:16:38   it seems like it might just behave like a speaker coil.

00:16:41   You know, 'cause you have the coils

00:16:43   that move the stuff around inside

00:16:46   to make the field vibrate.

00:16:47   The commands that the phone is sending to the Taptic Engine,

00:16:50   it seems like it's doing it via audio signaling.

00:16:54   It's not a speaker, it's just a vibrating weight

00:16:57   or whatever it is in there.

00:16:59   But isn't that, that to me, that sounds really cool.

00:17:02   That's such a brilliant hack.

00:17:04   Is that what you guys assume that meant too?

00:17:06   That's what I assume the Taptic Engine always was, because it's basically a speaker without

00:17:09   the cone. When you have a speaker, it's the thing moving back and forth, but there's no

00:17:13   paper cone or whatever moving air. So that's what it always looks like. It looks like a

00:17:16   big magnet coil-of-wire type thingy.

00:17:18   Yeah, and so if you think about how the phone would drive that, it's basically sending it

00:17:23   like MIDI notes almost. Whatever you're feeling, the phone's going like "uh-uh-uh-uh-uh," and

00:17:29   then instead of being a cone that's providing a sound, it's just vibrating the thing inside

00:17:34   at probably like one or two fixed frequencies

00:17:36   and just dealing with the timing

00:17:38   and the strength and everything.

00:17:39   I think that's really cool.

00:17:40   - Yeah, I never thought of it that way,

00:17:41   but that is super awesome.

00:17:42   And is there some difference in the way

00:17:45   the Taptic Engine is working that maybe

00:17:48   the new one is much better and that's why

00:17:50   you don't get that control in that API

00:17:53   for the 6S Taptic Engine?

00:17:54   'Cause isn't that the case that the 6S Taptic Engine

00:17:57   you don't get any control over as a developer,

00:17:59   but the 7U do?

00:18:00   - Yeah, basically, or at least the 6S

00:18:03   you have very little control and the 7 you have basically full control.

00:18:06   Well you should look at the 7 to see if it has an audio thing for the Taptic Engine 2.

00:18:12   Maybe it does or it could be that the old ones are just basically on/off and the only

00:18:15   way you get different sort of vibration themes or sequences is by going on/off in different

00:18:21   frequencies whereas this one if you could dig through iOS maybe you could find like

00:18:24   the audio samples that they send to the virtual speaker that is the Taptic Engine rather than

00:18:29   and just going on, off, on, off, on, off,

00:18:30   just send tones or frequencies or sounds.

00:18:33   That would be a good jailbreak hack

00:18:34   if you could play music through the Tapsic engine

00:18:36   and see what it does.

00:18:37   (laughing)

00:18:38   - Like the floppy disk performances of the olden days.

00:18:42   Oh, that's a start.

00:18:43   - No, but you could like feel a song, you know?

00:18:45   You probably at least feel the basic rhythm, you know?

00:18:47   'Cause like it basically is like a fairly imprecise

00:18:52   and different output type of speaker.

00:18:54   And that's pretty cool.

00:18:54   I think this is a really cool thing to learn.

00:18:57   - Yeah, I'm curious to see if they give us

00:18:58   any more control over time.

00:19:00   I can't imagine that they would,

00:19:01   but man would that be neat to be able to do,

00:19:03   have some more fine grained control over it.

00:19:06   Assistive touch.

00:19:08   So we've been talking about this quite a bit

00:19:10   and there's been a couple of new theories

00:19:14   as to why I guess this is happening.

00:19:16   Jon, do you want to talk about this?

00:19:17   - This is just a couple that we left out

00:19:19   in the last discussion of why assistive touch

00:19:21   is so prevalent in East Asia.

00:19:24   And one idea was that the parts that are in the iPhones

00:19:29   in that region, sort of in the non-United States,

00:19:34   Europe regions, are the crudier parts.

00:19:37   Now, I can understand why this would be

00:19:42   something that happens in like,

00:19:43   when you're selling into markets that you sell less in,

00:19:47   that you make less money in,

00:19:48   and if you have parts that are not as good,

00:19:50   you might sell the crudier ones into the market

00:19:52   you make less money, it doesn't seem like a thing that Apple would ever do. It seems to me that Apple

00:19:58   has a certain quality control procedure and they just apply it to all their products and that's

00:20:01   that, but who knows, maybe they know better than I do. But this also sounds like one of those things

00:20:06   like so many companies have done it that they just assume everybody does it. I'm not sure if it's true

00:20:11   of Apple. But that would explain like, you know, our home buttons are worse than yours essentially.

00:20:16   Like I live in Thailand and our home buttons break more than yours do because we get the crappy

00:20:20   home buttons and you don't. Setting aside that like you know the iPhone 4 was bad for everybody,

00:20:25   right? So that's one idea. Another idea I heard put forth is it's really humid here and humidity

00:20:31   destroys our electronics sooner than yours. Like all this going towards the notion that

00:20:36   empirically home buttons do not last as long in this region of the world either because they're

00:20:43   getting cheaper parts or because they're getting the same parts and they get messed up by humidity.

00:20:47   Now, both of these sound like things that sound plausible, but don't really make that

00:20:54   much sense to me, because I can tell you in the United States at least, we have plenty

00:20:57   of humidity.

00:20:58   Just ask Casey.

00:20:59   We have places that have lots of humidity, and you don't hear about people in Louisiana

00:21:03   and Georgia having home buttons that fail more often than people in Arizona, right?

00:21:08   So I don't think that's it.

00:21:09   And the cheaper parts thing, only Apple knows for sure, right?

00:21:12   It's not like they're going to admit this, but it just doesn't seem like a thing that

00:21:15   Apple would do.

00:21:16   I think they have, for all their suppliers, have quality control standards and they just

00:21:20   apply them universally.

00:21:21   And if they don't meet the quality standards, they send them back around and recycle the

00:21:25   things and try again.

00:21:26   Yeah, it makes sense.

00:21:29   So we've gotten word that in iOS 10, iCloud backups, or really restores, I guess I should

00:21:34   say, now include passwords.

00:21:36   Now if you recall, and I think I first heard this from Marco years ago, but all three of

00:21:41   us had recommended that if you're going to back up your phone, the most reliable or maybe

00:21:45   perhaps easiest way to do it is to backup with iTunes and ensure that you've checked

00:21:51   the "encrypt backups" checkbox.

00:21:54   And so this password protects your backups and then because it's password protected,

00:21:59   Apple feels like, "Oh, in this case, I guess we can include Wi-Fi passwords and things

00:22:03   like that in the backup."

00:22:05   If you don't encrypt your backup, then the backup will not include Wi-Fi passwords and

00:22:09   things of that nature, which makes sense.

00:22:11   Now apparently in iOS 10, iCloud backups and restores now include passwords, which is excellent.

00:22:17   I didn't know that was a thing.

00:22:18   You have to learn to read the code of the notes, the show notes.

00:22:21   What do the show notes actually say?

00:22:23   They don't say iOS 10 iCloud restores now include passwords, right?

00:22:27   What do they say?

00:22:29   I see a question mark at the end of that sentence.

00:22:31   iOS 10 iCloud restores now include passwords?

00:22:34   There's a question mark at the end because I have heard this as well.

00:22:39   None of us have actually confirmed it, but I've seen a couple of tweets to that effect.

00:22:44   I have not tried it myself, but in theory, they now include passwords.

00:22:48   I was hoping one of you knew for sure if you had done it.

00:22:50   But anyway, I think this—

00:22:51   No, but I've heard this independently several different times now.

00:22:54   Yeah, I know.

00:22:55   I'm just saying I didn't go and look it up on Apple's site and I haven't done it myself,

00:22:57   so I don't want to tell people, "Hey, don't worry about it.

00:22:59   Just use iCloud.

00:23:00   We'll have everything."

00:23:01   But it seems like, fingers crossed, this will be the last update where you have to hear

00:23:06   the spiel from everybody who is on a tech podcast saying,

00:23:09   "Oh, make sure you do an encrypted iTunes backup."

00:23:11   And I like this because I hate iTunes backup.

00:23:13   I hate the fact that I connect my thing

00:23:15   and half the times it says,

00:23:16   "Oh, failed to connect to device,"

00:23:17   or "Backup failed for some reason that you can't control."

00:23:19   Just reboot everything and cross your fingers.

00:23:20   I hate it so much.

00:23:22   - Really? - Yes, it's the worst.

00:23:23   - You know, maybe you should get a newer Mac

00:23:24   because I don't have any new Macs.

00:23:25   - This is on the 5K iMac,

00:23:27   'cause it's a 5K iMac with an iPhone 6S Plus.

00:23:30   This is what I'm doing, like my wife's device

00:23:32   and my kids' devices.

00:23:34   It's completely inscrutable.

00:23:36   And I kind of know like the one I can't connect to the process on the phone and

00:23:38   they're just messed up. You just have to like reboot them both and just get,

00:23:41   it's just, it's the worst. And half the time it fails in the middle.

00:23:43   For some reason it's like, well, I couldn't do it. Sorry.

00:23:46   And it's always at like 20 minutes of incredibly slow transfer over USB two

00:23:50   speeds from this. I hate it so much.

00:23:52   So I'll be very happy to have this be an iCloud thing that,

00:23:55   that is first terrible as iCloud restore is where it takes forever to your apps

00:23:59   to come back and everything. At least in my experience, it runs unattended.

00:24:03   So I could start the restore and then go to sleep

00:24:06   and leave it plugged in and wake up

00:24:07   and hopefully it will be done.

00:24:08   Whereas now with iTunes, it's like make an attempt,

00:24:12   come back in five, 10, 15 minutes to see if it failed.

00:24:15   If it has, do a bunch of rain dances, make another attempt.

00:24:18   I really don't like iTunes interaction

00:24:20   with iOS devices at all.

00:24:22   Never really liked it and it's just getting worse.

00:24:23   - That's so weird to me because I almost never

00:24:26   have any issues with iTunes backups.

00:24:28   And I have heard, although I've not seen this

00:24:31   with my own eyes, I have heard numerous people

00:24:34   complaining and moaning about how terrible

00:24:36   and flaky iCloud backups are.

00:24:38   Well, backups and restores.

00:24:40   And I mean, it doesn't mean you're wrong,

00:24:41   it doesn't mean I'm right, it's just surprising

00:24:43   that your experience seems to be the opposite

00:24:44   of everything I've heard.

00:24:46   - Well also, I mean, we have a lot of friends

00:24:48   and at least two of the hosts of the show

00:24:50   are early adopters who like to buy things on day one.

00:24:53   And on day one, sometimes the iCloud servers

00:24:56   get overloaded or the App Store servers get overloaded

00:24:59   and things don't quite work reliably.

00:25:00   And so we, day one people, will usually have

00:25:05   more reliable experiences with iTunes backup and restore

00:25:09   in that case, because we're avoiding

00:25:10   all those day one server hassles.

00:25:12   Whereas John, who buys phones when they're

00:25:14   three to four years old, once he's really sure

00:25:16   that everything is safe about them,

00:25:18   (laughing)

00:25:19   by that point, that everything has calmed down

00:25:21   with the servers and he doesn't run into those issues.

00:25:23   - Yeah, the main reason I would say for people to,

00:25:26   if iOS 10 iCloud restorers now have passwords in them,

00:25:30   we think the main reason to do is to save SSD space because the backups are big. True. Like

00:25:35   they're not the full size of your storage you know because of various you know app thinning and maybe

00:25:39   not transferring purchases or whatever but they're big enough that if you have a family full of iOS

00:25:44   devices and you have a single Mac with a regular person size SSD you are wasting a huge amount of

00:25:49   your SSD space. Not you're not wasting right but you're using a huge amount of your SSD space for

00:25:54   for device backups.

00:25:55   Say you get a family with a bunch of 128 gig devices

00:25:59   and you back them all up to a single Mac that you said,

00:26:02   oh, I'll just get the 500 gig SSD.

00:26:04   You will use all of your space for iOS device backups.

00:26:08   Now I'm not, you know, the cloud is not a perfect backup

00:26:10   and the cloud can be o's too.

00:26:11   And if you really care about the stuff that's on your phone,

00:26:13   have multiple backups, so on and so forth.

00:26:16   But it always annoys me when I run like Disc Inventory X,

00:26:19   that ancient program that still works

00:26:20   or any other programs that show you like the tree map

00:26:22   of your hard drive with the area on this little area

00:26:27   of the rectangles representing size.

00:26:28   And I see the giant thing for mobile backup

00:26:31   or whatever that folder is.

00:26:32   I think, do I need all those backups?

00:26:34   How many backups do I have?

00:26:36   And I just, you can just go in iTunes and delete them

00:26:38   and thin them out, but they take up a lot of room.

00:26:40   So I will be very happy when I can sort of allow iCloud

00:26:45   to be my main backup for my thing

00:26:47   and only backup to my Mac periodically

00:26:49   as like a belt and suspenders type thing,

00:26:51   like once every few months

00:26:52   and only keep one backup, not keep like backups,

00:26:56   you know, seven recent backups, just one in an emergency.

00:26:58   Because for the most part,

00:27:00   most of the data that's on my phone should be elsewhere.

00:27:04   All the photos go to PhotoStream,

00:27:05   PhotoStream goes to Photos,

00:27:06   Photos gets backed up in 17 million places

00:27:08   because of my crazy Photos backup, so those photos are fine.

00:27:11   Everything else like Notes and stuff like that

00:27:13   is in theory backed up locally on my Mac

00:27:15   because they're syncing to the same accounts

00:27:16   and back to multiple Macs.

00:27:17   So I feel like I still have multiple backups

00:27:20   and I'm totally ready to not waste my SSD space

00:27:23   with iTunes backups as soon as I can.

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00:28:59   [Music]

00:29:00   Eric Meyer Last week we talked about the rumors of Apple

00:29:05   investing in and/or buying McLaren and whether we thought that was a good idea or what Apple

00:29:10   would get out of it. And we got a lot of feedback about it and I would say the vast majority

00:29:15   of the feedback was telling us that we don't understand what an awesome company McLaren

00:29:19   is, that Apple would be happy to have them. Common threads that were pointed out is, "Did

00:29:24   you know McLaren has an F1 team?" And the F1 is really technically advanced, and computers

00:29:30   and engine control units and telemetry data from all the F1s. Basically, the idea that

00:29:37   Formula One is a very high-tech thing. McLaren is a high-tech company. It's not a bunch of

00:29:40   people with greasy overalls slapping together cars. They're a tech company. At a second

00:29:44   angle on that is, you know, they're not, they're not actually even a car company.

00:29:48   They're basically a technology company just like Apple, and they happen to make

00:29:51   cars. Their manufacturing expertise in terms of pushing the limits on new

00:29:57   materials and how to build, build cars in new ways that have new materials was

00:30:01   touted by many people, although other people also pointed out a BMW and their,

00:30:04   their carbon fiber stuff for their electronic cars and everything like that.

00:30:09   So in general, and I don't know if every single one of these emails was coming

00:30:13   From like the town in England where they're based or where are they? In Scotland or anything? I don't even know.

00:30:19   Anyway, it's obvious none of us follow F1. So you got us there.

00:30:22   We do not follow it and I think in general it's not nearly as popular in America kind of like soccer or football if you will.

00:30:29   Yeah, forgive us. We're American. Right. We don't know about F1.

00:30:32   I do know a lot about McLaren though and most of the things they're saying about carbon fiber and

00:30:37   the technology and all that stuff. Yes, that's all true, but I still go back to what I said

00:30:43   said on the last show, which is investment partnership.

00:30:46   Yeah, totally.

00:30:47   There's a million companies they can invest

00:30:48   and have partnerships with.

00:30:49   And there's certainly things they can get from them

00:30:51   and from every other company that they've--

00:30:53   in the audio industry that might have something-- they could

00:30:55   build something for them or whatever.

00:30:56   But in terms of buying them outright,

00:31:00   that's a whole other story.

00:31:04   But let's put it this way.

00:31:05   It's kind of like when I was talking about Nintendo.

00:31:07   Half of it is I think it wouldn't be a great idea,

00:31:09   but the other half of it, I have to admit,

00:31:11   it would be a shame to buy mclaren and not let it continue to do what it has done for

00:31:18   most of my life which is no not most of my life but since the 90s or whatever like they

00:31:24   make supercars right and i like that they make supercars and i don't want them to stop

00:31:29   doing that even though that may not be their most important business or their main business

00:31:32   or their area of expertise or whatever you know whatever aspect you think that is not

00:31:36   an important part of their business apple's not interested in selling 200 300 000 cars

00:31:41   I don't think right maybe maybe Johnny I will have the apple car edition that will be expensive made of solid gold

00:31:46   But I don't want someone to buy

00:31:49   McLaren and

00:31:50   Stop it from doing what it does and I bet the people who like f1 don't want Apple to buy McLaren and say yeah

00:31:55   We're not doing that f1 thing anymore, right?

00:31:57   If they only want them for their expertise in car telemetry and engine control units and manufacturing stuff then just partner with them

00:32:04   But I don't want them to buy them because I feel like what McLaren is doing does not fit with Apple

00:32:09   what I can imagine Apple ever wanting to do.

00:32:11   And so you either buy them and just let them continue

00:32:14   to be McLaren, which is weird, like a Beats kind of thing,

00:32:17   but with not as much synergy because Beats is closer

00:32:20   to Apple's business than what McLaren does,

00:32:22   or you just partner with them.

00:32:24   So, and then the other part is the mass manufacturing.

00:32:26   A lot of people are like, they know how to build things,

00:32:27   they're great at it.

00:32:28   Like those supercars are not built

00:32:30   in the same way as Toyotas.

00:32:32   You cannot build hundreds of thousands of cars

00:32:35   the way that they build the P1.

00:32:36   You just can't, it's a different technique.

00:32:38   Now it's great that they're advancing the state of the art

00:32:40   and finding new ways to build things.

00:32:42   There are a hell of a lot more people

00:32:44   doing things with their hands when building a McLaren car

00:32:47   than there are when building a Honda or a Toyota.

00:32:49   And many people are like,

00:32:51   Apple doesn't need to buy a company like that.

00:32:52   Yes, they can just partner.

00:32:53   But that's something Apple doesn't know how to do.

00:32:55   They know how to make lots of computers

00:32:57   and they know how to help other companies

00:32:59   make lots of computers.

00:33:01   They know how to invest in machinery

00:33:03   that Foxconn can use to build their computers,

00:33:05   but Foxconn doesn't know how to build cars

00:33:07   Apple doesn't know how to build half the stuff.

00:33:09   That's why they outsource it.

00:33:10   So again, if you're gonna outsource or partner

00:33:11   and have somebody, one of these builders,

00:33:13   the Magna Company build your stuff, fine.

00:33:16   But buying outright just doesn't seem like a good idea.

00:33:19   So let McLaren be McLaren is what I say.

00:33:22   - Makes sense to me.

00:33:26   A lot of people wrote in,

00:33:26   they're very enthusiastic about McLaren.

00:33:29   A lot of F1 fans that are also nerds, it seems.

00:33:31   - Did you know they made a car call to F1?

00:33:34   - I did.

00:33:35   I've heard it's very nice.

00:33:36   Maybe who have never listened to neutral and don't know like we don't know f1, but we know McLaren or never eat Marco doesn't

00:33:42   Well, I don't know they may be f1. I don't know anything about McLaren or f1

00:33:46   You've never heard of the McLaren f1. Of course not why would I you've never heard of the Millennium Falcon?

00:33:50   I mean that yeah car that did the Calciron 12 parsecs

00:33:53   That doesn't even make sense

00:33:56   No, you do you have heard of the McLaren f1, which is the one that had three seats and you drove in the center seat

00:34:01   You know what? I'm thinking of. Mmm. Nope, but that sounds like a terrible car

00:34:05   Oh my god, it was like the greatest car for me, but you're close pretty much

00:34:09   I mean this is coming from a Ferrari fanboy that the McLaren f1 is the greatest car ever made

00:34:13   No, I was disappointed in the p1 because anything like that's why they didn't make a success for so long

00:34:18   How can you how can you follow that up?

00:34:20   Well mini neutral them and the McLaren f1 as a supercar

00:34:23   Made to be like one of its important goals was it was gonna be the fastest not just the quickest but the fastest

00:34:29   So top speed was a big deal

00:34:31   They usually don't do that these days and although the Bugatti Veyron did a little top speed stuff as well

00:34:36   But in general supercars are staying away from the top speed because once you get up into the high 250 mile per hour things

00:34:41   It becomes a real aerodynamic and power challenge, which is why the stupid Veyron has this gigantic gasoline sucking engine 16 cylinder engine in there

00:34:49   But the f1 was it was quick not as quick as modern cars obviously, but it was quick

00:34:54   But it had a very high top speed. I think it was up in the 250s

00:34:57   You sat exactly dead center in it, which is something that always annoy me about like supercars like if his entire car is about performance

00:35:02   Why am I sitting off to the left?

00:35:04   Right, like it should be like a race car where you sit in the middle you did in this one. It looked great

00:35:08   and it was just

00:35:11   It was just the epitome of like let's make the best car in the world like what Apple

00:35:15   Not Apple didn't use to do some company some computer companies have done

00:35:18   Let's make the best X in the world

00:35:21   Like in every possible way it can be the best in terms like lesson. It's the best performance car

00:35:25   Is it faster than every color of the car? Yes. Is it quicker around the track than every other car?

00:35:29   Yes, is it better looking than every other car? Yes, I can just aim for the top

00:35:32   And it was on the top for a really long period of time and the successor the p1 is not the same thing

00:35:40   but anyway

00:35:41   It's kind of like the sr-71 of the car world where for a brief moment

00:35:45   They made the best car in the world and everyone recognized it and said yep, you did it and that's why they go for

00:35:51   huge amounts of money now, they also had a

00:35:54   an unfortunate penchant for killing their owners

00:35:59   and/or destroying themselves in a hail of carbon fiber

00:36:02   because very rich people get essentially the best car

00:36:05   in the world, but its reputation precedes it,

00:36:07   that it's more car than they can handle,

00:36:09   and they go out in a blaze of glory.

00:36:12   Drive carefully.

00:36:13   - See, I'm looking at this car,

00:36:15   and McLaren is a company that makes cars

00:36:20   that are exceptionally well regarded

00:36:22   by everybody else in the world,

00:36:23   but yet I look at them and just immediately

00:36:27   forget about them.

00:36:28   Like, if you would have asked me before this conversation

00:36:31   started to name supercar brands,

00:36:33   I would have forgotten about them.

00:36:34   Like, I wouldn't even, they don't even cross my mind.

00:36:37   - So they made the F1, which is like the best supercar

00:36:39   ever made, right, and then today they make a line of cars

00:36:42   that look like fish, fine, but they're really good.

00:36:45   Supercars, right?

00:36:47   The P1 and the 650 and all the other, like,

00:36:51   with the old unfortunate name, what was it, MP12 4C,

00:36:53   whatever the hell it was.

00:36:54   - I think that's right.

00:36:55   - They have terrible names, but they're good supercars.

00:36:58   Like they're not bad, they're right up there

00:37:00   with the whole rest of them, right?

00:37:02   That's why when they did like the various car challenges,

00:37:04   it was like the P1, the 918, and the LaFerrari, right?

00:37:07   They're right in there, they're the top three.

00:37:09   They're one of those other cars,

00:37:11   and you may think they're forgettable

00:37:12   because the styling is interesting,

00:37:13   but the F1 does look a little bit dated,

00:37:15   but you know, it's an old car, it's from the 90s.

00:37:17   - I mean, and maybe the problem is just that

00:37:19   I don't really care as much as most car enthusiasts do

00:37:23   about supercars.

00:37:24   Like to me, a supercar is just like,

00:37:27   you know, okay, great, it can go really fast,

00:37:29   it is completely impractical for any use ever,

00:37:31   and costs a billion dollars,

00:37:33   and you drive it 10 miles and it needs a $5,000 clutch.

00:37:37   Like, I don't really know why I should care

00:37:40   about this world.

00:37:41   - He's just not into supercars.

00:37:42   All right, to bring this back to tech topics,

00:37:44   I don't know how Mark is gonna edit this,

00:37:46   speaking of my potential pristine jet black iPhone

00:37:50   that I was speculating about possibly taking out

00:37:52   the case and then carefully putting in my clean room wearing my Intel bunny suit into

00:37:58   a leather case where no part of it that is not exposed to the outside will get damaged

00:38:04   if I'm very careful with it in theory.

00:38:06   A couple of people made snarky comments like, "Isn't it like getting an iPhone and then

00:38:12   never using the home button, but it doesn't matter because you're never going to use the

00:38:15   home button?

00:38:16   What good is a jet black phone that you keep pristine if you never see the jet black phone

00:38:20   because it's always in a case?"

00:38:21   I hope these aren't longtime listeners to the show. I would hope that people who are longtime listeners like you two who are always here

00:38:27   Why it is not analogous why do why is that not a valid analogy in my specific case we're saying oh John says

00:38:37   You know, you shouldn't if you never use the home button, it doesn't matter but he's doing the same thing with jetpack fun

00:38:41   Why is that not the case? I thought that was amazing feedback and I was disappointed. We didn't think of it during the show

00:38:46   Same here. You guys can't figure out switch your brains from that mode to the other mode

00:38:51   and say, "Assume that it is not the case,

00:38:54   "because I can tell you that it's not.

00:38:55   "Why?"

00:38:56   - Well, with the new home button,

00:38:57   it's irrelevant because it doesn't move, but--

00:39:00   - No, like, why is it not the same

00:39:01   as my Jet Black iPhone situation?

00:39:03   That's me specifically.

00:39:04   - Well, because there's a huge difference

00:39:06   in effectiveness here.

00:39:07   The people who are not using the home button

00:39:10   will actually succeed in their goal,

00:39:13   but Jon, you will not succeed

00:39:15   in not scratching the Jet Black.

00:39:16   It is impossible.

00:39:18   - I don't know if that's the case.

00:39:19   We'll see, but no, no.

00:39:20   See, what they were trying to say is the absurdity of,

00:39:22   look, if you're never gonna use the home button

00:39:23   and you're never gonna sell your phone,

00:39:24   that was the whole thing.

00:39:25   Like I was saying, if you're not gonna resell it,

00:39:26   'cause obviously it retains resale value

00:39:28   by not breaking the home button.

00:39:29   If you have a pristine home button,

00:39:30   maybe your phone is worth more later.

00:39:31   So there's value in that.

00:39:32   But if you're never gonna resell it

00:39:34   and you're never gonna touch it,

00:39:35   what the hell do you care if it works?

00:39:36   And so with Jet Black, if you're never gonna see it,

00:39:38   'cause you're always gonna keep it in the case,

00:39:39   what the hell do you care if it's scratched up, right?

00:39:42   And I don't understand why people don't know me from now

00:39:45   and you two are always making funny about this.

00:39:47   When I'm done with my phone, I'm not going to resell it.

00:39:50   What's going to happen to it?

00:39:51   So you're going to go into the museum of pristine Apple hardware, and there is

00:39:55   value in a museum of pristine Apple hardware for the hardware to be pristine.

00:39:59   Why do you think I'm protecting it in the case?

00:40:01   Not just so I can go to sleep at night thinking it's safely in its

00:40:03   constellations when I'm, when I'm done with the phone, it's going to come out

00:40:06   of that case and be a beautiful, pristine object along with my other.

00:40:10   Apple hardware and stuff.

00:40:11   Now you could say like, when people do that, all that junk in your attic will

00:40:16   will never be displayed in such a beautiful way deserving of.

00:40:18   But you have to, like, that's my plan right now.

00:40:20   So it has value in my plan, right?

00:40:23   Whether it has value in actuality, you can argue with,

00:40:25   but it's not analogy there.

00:40:27   Now if someone's preserving the home button,

00:40:28   'cause they're never gonna resell it,

00:40:30   but then when they're done using the phone,

00:40:31   they're just gonna press that pristine home button

00:40:33   once a day for pleasure,

00:40:34   then they have a reason to do it as well.

00:40:36   - We're also sponsored this week by Fracture.

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00:43:11   (upbeat music)

00:43:14   - All right, so we didn't get any time

00:43:17   to talk about it last week, but macOS Sierra is out.

00:43:22   It's a thing, and I have installed it on my iMac.

00:43:25   I have not installed it on my work computer

00:43:27   because we got the standard, oh God, oh God,

00:43:30   we knew it's been coming for months,

00:43:32   but we haven't tested any of our software with it,

00:43:34   message from work.

00:43:36   So anyway, so it's not on my work machine,

00:43:37   but it is on my home machine.

00:43:38   And so far so good, I really like it, I think.

00:43:41   But anyway.

00:43:42   - Glowing endorsement from KZList right there.

00:43:46   - All right.

00:43:46   Are you running it on your iMac, Marco?

00:43:50   - No.

00:43:51   No, yeah, basically, normally I have jumped

00:43:55   into things like this quickly in the past.

00:43:57   In almost every case, I have regretted it

00:44:00   because something that I use breaks.

00:44:03   Often it's audio related or related to some kind

00:44:05   of hardware driver type of app.

00:44:08   people have reported issues with Fujitsu scan snap software,

00:44:10   which actually wouldn't impact me,

00:44:11   'cause I have that running on my Mac mini server,

00:44:13   it's not on my main computer.

00:44:15   But I do have audio running on my main computer,

00:44:17   I have external audio devices, I edit with logic,

00:44:20   and we've heard various rumblings from people

00:44:22   at Jason Snell that this has had occasional problems

00:44:25   during the beta period and it might not still be fixed.

00:44:28   So basically, the question is,

00:44:31   and this we'll probably get into,

00:44:33   hopefully John's review of it,

00:44:34   but the question for me is what's new in Sierra?

00:44:37   what is worth risking things breaking and dealing with the inevitable instability that

00:44:43   almost every .0 release of the OS brings. And in iOS, you know, the differences are

00:44:49   larger and also I'm an iOS developer and so I feel like I need to pay more attention there

00:44:53   and use the betas and get my app ready for the betas and everything else. On OS X, I

00:44:57   never ever run the beta Mac OS on my main computer. If anything, I run it on my laptop

00:45:04   and even then, I don't usually do that.

00:45:07   So basically, I have to look at the features that are new,

00:45:11   and I have to say, what among these features

00:45:13   am I just dying to use that will make it worth

00:45:16   the period of potential instability up front

00:45:18   for a new OS release?

00:45:20   And in Sierra's case, it's just not compelling for me.

00:45:23   The features people are talking about,

00:45:24   the changes, the improvements, are just things

00:45:27   that either I wouldn't really use, or that would be nice,

00:45:32   but I'm not sure it's worth it yet.

00:45:35   So I'm not saying I'm never gonna upgrade,

00:45:37   I'm probably gonna upgrade within the next couple of weeks,

00:45:39   but I kinda just want like a point one to come out

00:45:42   or just to hear from people that these issues

00:45:45   that were in the betas might be fixed or whatever else.

00:45:47   There's not enough here for me to be an early adopter of it,

00:45:51   but I'll upgrade soon enough.

00:45:53   - Jon, what are your thoughts?

00:45:55   - So I've got two incompatible computers,

00:45:58   my work computer and my home computer,

00:45:59   in theory aren't supported in practice,

00:46:01   In practice, my home computer runs it fine

00:46:03   'cause I ran the betas, albeit on a separate drive.

00:46:08   I waited long enough to hear if there's anything disastrous

00:46:11   and there wasn't, so I upgraded my wife's iMac

00:46:13   while she's away, surprise.

00:46:15   - Oh, gee. - It's fine.

00:46:16   - That's a bold move.

00:46:17   - I also control all the backups, so don't worry.

00:46:20   If anything was wrong, I just would have restored

00:46:22   from one of the umpteen backups I made

00:46:23   before doing this and it would have been fine,

00:46:26   but it's fine.

00:46:27   The only scare I've gotten so far,

00:46:30   I don't even know if I can blame this on Sierra

00:46:31   because it's one of those things that occasionally happens

00:46:34   where you get a dialogue asking for a password

00:46:36   and you enter the password and you get another dialogue

00:46:38   that says like a key chain system could not be found

00:46:42   or something like that.

00:46:42   You know, in a key chain, you've got all these different,

00:46:43   you got your login key chain and system key chain

00:46:45   and all of this stuff.

00:46:46   Key chain corruption is like one of the worst things

00:46:48   that can happen.

00:46:49   It's just such a pain in the ass.

00:46:50   You just, you can wipe it all out

00:46:52   and just type in the passwords

00:46:53   if you have them someplace else,

00:46:54   like in one password or whatever,

00:46:56   but it's just so annoying.

00:46:57   And you just want it to be like,

00:46:59   just go back to working state.

00:47:01   So anyway, once I saw that dialogue once,

00:47:02   I'm like, nope, that means reboot.

00:47:04   And so I rebooted everything and it's been fine,

00:47:05   which is the worst kind of problem to have.

00:47:07   Who knows what it was.

00:47:08   Very often when you update the OS,

00:47:10   it updates the bundled apps and sometimes they don't,

00:47:13   they have different signatures or whatever,

00:47:14   don't look up the same,

00:47:15   they can't get access to the same key chain items,

00:47:17   they want to be reauthorized.

00:47:18   Like this is a thing that I'm kind of used to by now.

00:47:21   But other than that, which only happened once,

00:47:23   everything else is mostly fine.

00:47:24   Also, her computer is the one

00:47:26   with the real Familyi photo library.

00:47:28   So I wanted it to do its thing with the photo searching

00:47:31   so I could actually use that.

00:47:33   And so I was motivated enough to upgrade her computer.

00:47:37   And like I said, it's fine.

00:47:39   I'm kind of in the same situation as Marco with mine,

00:47:41   only actually even worse

00:47:42   because I have unsupported computers.

00:47:44   In both situations, I have to ask,

00:47:47   do I want to risk like,

00:47:51   oh, what if a point update comes out

00:47:52   and I run the updater and then it hoses my thing

00:47:54   and I gotta go through some little dance to get it back

00:47:56   because it's unsupported?

00:47:57   Do I want to deal with that?

00:48:00   And what is there in the operating system

00:48:02   that makes me feel like I'm missing out, essentially?

00:48:06   I feel like I can't use something.

00:48:08   Today, I downloaded a developer build of an application

00:48:12   and had the little circle with a line through it on it.

00:48:14   And I realized, oh, this must be Sierra only.

00:48:17   That's the type of thing that makes me go, you know what?

00:48:19   I should upgrade, because I want to be

00:48:21   able to run the new software.

00:48:24   Or the features.

00:48:25   If everyone's like, oh, picture picture is amazing.

00:48:27   It's, you know, I use it all the time.

00:48:29   And you know, like our tab documents

00:48:31   and all these applications didn't previously support them.

00:48:33   Now magically do it because of OS, you know,

00:48:35   NS document features, right?

00:48:37   If I feel like I'm missing out on what everyone else is doing

00:48:40   I probably will bite the bullet, but at home,

00:48:42   I'm motivated not to upgrade because I might screw up

00:48:44   my audio, you know, like my podcasting set up here.

00:48:47   And at work I'm motivated not to upgrade

00:48:48   because in any way that I screw up my work computer

00:48:51   is a delay in doing my work.

00:48:52   And my work doesn't go away while I'm fussing

00:48:53   my computer and it's not like I can stay at work an extra three hours when I'm

00:48:57   wrangling the kids even though my parents are here just you know I have to

00:49:00   get back so I don't know what I'm gonna do I I may I mean like I'm not really

00:49:05   waiting like I feel like I'm not missing out missing out because I the 5k iMac

00:49:08   has it and whenever I do photo stuff I use it like I'm I'm seeing all the

00:49:11   features and of course I used all the betas so it's not a mystery to me and

00:49:14   not like don't know what it is but on the other hand I couldn't give you a

00:49:17   review of at this point because I'm not using it every day on the two main

00:49:19   computers that I use, my home computer and my work computer.

00:49:24   I don't know, by the time I bite the bullet, maybe they're on their point two or point

00:49:28   three or whatever.

00:49:30   I'm sure I will eventually.

00:49:31   I'm very bad at resisting these type of things, even though I've got it on, maybe because

00:49:35   I have it on the 5K iMac, but I'll see it over there and realize things are nicer or

00:49:39   I just want this thing that's over there that's not over here, even if it's just some new

00:49:42   feature in the terminal application or something.

00:49:45   I'll probably upgrade, but I haven't done it yet.

00:49:48   All right, good talk.

00:49:50   No, I mean, I've been using it at home, and I like it.

00:49:53   I think the thing that I interact with most that I like the most is probably some rudimentary support for new messages features,

00:50:04   like the big emoji, the inline, I have like rich content stuff, so if you say paste to tweet messages,

00:50:10   it'll actually go and expand that tweet for you kind of Slack style.

00:50:14   I have been using the watch unlock the first two times. I used it. I had a 50% success rate

00:50:19   Since then it's been nearly 100% success rate

00:50:23   But that being said it takes longer than it takes me to type my like 10 or 15 character password

00:50:29   Which is a little bit of a bummer

00:50:30   But maybe that'll get better in the future if I'm really that in that much of a hurry

00:50:34   I can certainly just type my password

00:50:36   But do you think it's because you have the old slow watch that's taking a while or is it just like you inherit in the you?

00:50:41   Know like what are you waiting on? I?

00:50:43   I think it's because it's just trying to figure out if the watch is close enough, physically

00:50:48   close enough.

00:50:49   So it's probably—I dug into this, or maybe somebody told me about it, but I guess it's

00:50:53   doing like a round-trip time of some sort of packet or communication between the watch

00:50:58   and the computer to make sure you are very physically close to it.

00:51:00   That someone was Craig Federighi on the talk show live.

00:51:03   Oh, okay.

00:51:04   So anyway, so point being, it takes a little time for that computation—or that, maybe

00:51:09   not the computation, but that round-tripping to be computed.

00:51:14   So I'm not saying it's like a CPU-intensive thing.

00:51:15   It's just it takes time to send a little bit of data, see how long that takes, wait for

00:51:20   it to come back, or whatever the mechanism is that's making this work.

00:51:23   But anyway, it is fairly reliable, but I haven't been able to say that it's much quicker than

00:51:32   just typing my password.

00:51:33   That was one of the features that was making—by the way, before you get off the watch unlock—that

00:51:37   one of the features that was making me think, "Oh, that's going to be the one that's going to make me

00:51:40   install it at work," because at work—I don't know if you do this, Casey, but in most corporate jobs,

00:51:43   they want you to lock your computer whenever you're not sitting in front of it, and I do

00:51:47   like just out of habit. Like, I always lock my computer the second I get up.

00:51:51   You know, unfortunate culture at work that is fading a little bit of if you do leave your

00:51:56   computer unlocked when you get up, you are punished for it by your co-workers who will

00:52:00   email everybody something embarrassing from your email account. I think that is inappropriate and

00:52:05   and should not be done and rather you should just remind them that they should lock their

00:52:08   computer.

00:52:09   Of course.

00:52:10   But in practice, what actually happens is much worse.

00:52:12   Anyway, I always lock my computer, which means that every time I come back to my desk, I

00:52:17   have to unlock my computer.

00:52:18   Even if I'm just getting up and walking one desk over, I have to, you know, I'm typing

00:52:21   in my unlock password over and over and over again.

00:52:23   And so I thought maybe this will, you know, get me to wear my watch again and, you know,

00:52:29   save me from typing my password a million times.

00:52:30   But even before I heard your story, I was like, come on now.

00:52:33   This is based on the same tech as Handoff, which never works.

00:52:36   And it can't possibly be fast.

00:52:39   And I'll just be sitting there in front of my computer, like the same way you're yelling

00:52:42   things to Siri and it's not understanding you.

00:52:44   It's like at a certain point it would have been faster if you just typed.

00:52:47   And typing always works.

00:52:49   So I will just continue to type my password.

00:52:53   The work makes me change on a ridiculous interval.

00:52:54   And I can't reuse any of the last 100 passwords I used.

00:52:57   It has to be different than the last password in 17 million different ways.

00:53:00   On the bright side, we can upgrade to Sierra at work because everything we use is now upgraded

00:53:06   to work with it, including the terrible antivirus software that we run.

00:53:10   So yay for work.

00:53:12   What antivirus are you running?

00:53:14   Symantec antivirus.

00:53:15   Symantec antivirus slash kernel panic causing piece of crap.

00:53:19   We're using Sophosophos, I don't know how you pronounce it, but S-O-P-H-O-S. I don't

00:53:25   know if that's the problem.

00:53:26   co-worker

00:53:28   upgraded to Sierra either before the IT department warning or perhaps in spite of the IT department warning and

00:53:34   He was telling me that our god-awful VPN which is checkpoint security VPN that the VPN software by the way

00:53:42   Hey, guess what includes a firewall that hey, guess what?

00:53:44   prevents outgoing LTP or outgoing VPN connections outgoing connections not incoming out

00:53:51   Going connections not that I'm bitter prevents airdrop from working which by the way

00:53:55   I have very rarely had airdrop issue. I shouldn't say very rarely. I've had a comfortable success rate with airdrop, but it blocks that as well

00:54:02   So anyway, so I install our VPN software on command like an animal

00:54:07   Because it's easier to do that than have half of the things I want to use not work when it is installed

00:54:13   Anyway, not that I'm bitter this software apparently hadn't been updated for Sierra

00:54:18   But this co-worker that did upgrade to Sierra found an installer

00:54:23   This is the same sort of thing like with Cisco.

00:54:25   You have to go spelunking into the deepest darkest part

00:54:29   of the website of the vendor

00:54:31   in order to find an installer DMG.

00:54:34   But eventually they found one and supposedly it works.

00:54:37   So I've been debating whether I wanna be that guy

00:54:39   that doesn't listen to the IT department

00:54:41   and just install it anyway.

00:54:42   So far I haven't, but we'll see.

00:54:44   And the reason I haven't, I think,

00:54:46   is because like Marco said, there's nothing that,

00:54:49   I was gonna say impressive,

00:54:52   That's nastier than I mean it.

00:54:53   There's nothing that's really pulling me

00:54:57   to immediately want to install it.

00:54:59   - Compelling.

00:54:59   - That's not necessarily, compelling is a great word, yeah.

00:55:02   That's not necessarily a bad thing,

00:55:04   but it's certainly not a great thing either.

00:55:07   - Okay, first of all, let me tell you guys

00:55:09   how to deal with your workplaces.

00:55:11   - Sure, go ahead.

00:55:12   - Here we go.

00:55:13   - Jon, if people who you work with are animals,

00:55:15   the correct answer to when somebody leaves

00:55:17   their computer unlocked and they shouldn't

00:55:19   is not to email things off their computer.

00:55:21   that is barbaric.

00:55:22   The correct answer is change their desktop wallpaper

00:55:24   to something funny or shocking,

00:55:26   and then put a bunch of windows over it

00:55:27   so they don't actually see it for a while

00:55:28   until they hide a window and then bam.

00:55:30   Okay, Casey, just ignore the IT department.

00:55:33   Do what you want.

00:55:34   Life is short.

00:55:34   - I didn't realize it was that easy.

00:55:37   - Yeah, it is.

00:55:38   That's it.

00:55:39   I mean, come on.

00:55:40   That's how jobs work, right?

00:55:41   - Totally.

00:55:42   I'm trying to be a nice guy right now,

00:55:45   but man, I'm putting holes in my tongue.

00:55:48   Anyway.

00:55:48   So yeah, so.

00:55:50   I was gonna say, for upgrading, the thing I think makes most people do it in the end

00:55:55   is they're not able to do something with their computer that they want to do.

00:55:58   Now the thing they want to do might be frivolous.

00:56:01   All my friends are using tabs on all their windows, and I see them doing it, and they're

00:56:05   all talking about tabs, and I don't have them on my windows because I don't have Sierra

00:56:09   that includes the new tab window manager, right?

00:56:13   That's a frivolous example.

00:56:14   A more concrete example is everybody's using this new Twitter client, and I'm going back

00:56:17   in time here when there was Twitter clients.

00:56:19   using this new tour client but it's CR only and I can't use it right if you

00:56:23   feel like you're not able to do things with computers then your computer you

00:56:27   know your into computers is one of your hobbies and everyone else you know and

00:56:31   the computer you know your little computer circles is doing this cool

00:56:34   thing and you can't do it because you're operating system so that I feel like in

00:56:37   the end is what makes people in our circle upgrade sometimes right off the

00:56:41   bat there's things for that and the other one is maybe you could say even if

00:56:45   I was the only computer user in the world this one has such nice performance

00:56:48   improvements that I wanted. Don't think Sierra has that, at least Apple's not touting it. Again,

00:56:52   I didn't test it, I didn't review it, though there are a lot of good reviews out there.

00:56:55   But performance increases are not a big selling point. I'm sure it's better in many performance

00:57:00   measures and there's huge performance improvements across the board, which is always in the back of

00:57:04   my mind as a reason to upgrade. Because anyone who writes software for a living knows what it feels

00:57:11   like to ship a new version of your software that you realize is so much better than the version

00:57:18   that your users out there are using.

00:57:20   Like the old version is a piece of crap.

00:57:21   It's like, do you realize how much code I deleted?

00:57:23   You don't understand how I refactored this.

00:57:25   You don't understand how I changed this code path

00:57:29   from being like 17 levels deep in subroutine calls

00:57:34   to now just being like two.

00:57:35   And this used to be called every 10 milliseconds

00:57:37   and now it's called like once a second

00:57:39   and just everything is so much better about it.

00:57:41   You're disgusted by the idea that anyone could be using it.

00:57:43   Well, operating systems like this

00:57:45   are filled with that stuff.

00:57:47   So I get the warm fuzzies, real or not, of "give me the new version of the software,

00:57:53   because I know there must be things about this that are just better than they were."

00:57:56   Now, it's not only that they also break crap to see Discovery D or whatever, but in general,

00:58:01   I want the new version of the software.

00:58:02   Although I think I'm a little bit weird in that respect.

00:58:04   But I think most of the reason people upgrade is, "everyone's doing the thing and I can't

00:58:09   do the thing."

00:58:10   And I will get to that point, and I think Marco will too, but we're both not there yet

00:58:13   with Sierra.

00:58:14   Yeah, that's fair.

00:58:15   I mean, I don't have anything bad to say about it. I don't I hope I don't sound too negative

00:58:20   It's not that I have anything bad to say

00:58:22   But I can't say that I've found any features that have really changed the way I use my computer so far

00:58:29   The watch unlock is the closest but I'm not relying on it

00:58:33   The one thing that I think I really do like and I do miss on my work computer

00:58:36   Like I said is having those like rich text or those rich previews in messages

00:58:41   Those are really, really great, and I wish I had that on my work computer.

00:58:45   But other than that, there's nothing really that's knocking my socks off.

00:58:49   And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

00:58:50   I mean, it's not rare for all of the three of us to beg and plead for Apple to just kind of take a breath

00:58:59   and try to improve reliability.

00:59:01   And I mean, it seems stable so far.

00:59:03   I mean, I'm only a few days in now, but it seems okay.

00:59:06   The one thing that I will tell you that I have been scared to do, though,

00:59:10   and doesn't really solve a problem I have anyway,

00:59:13   is this iCloud drive,

00:59:17   "Hey, we'll move things to the cloud on your behalf.

00:59:20   "Don't worry, you're pretty little face,

00:59:21   "we've got you covered."

00:59:22   This looks like, from everything I've heard,

00:59:25   this is a dumpster fire.

00:59:26   Like this is no good.

00:59:27   - I should have saved this clip.

00:59:29   In the tradition of now, this is my new thing now.

00:59:31   I look up stuff in old podcasts

00:59:32   and make overcast timestamp links.

00:59:34   So Marco better never make that site go down,

00:59:36   or at least add a new record somehow.

00:59:38   Anyway, I was thinking like we talked about this before and how we're all scared of this feature

00:59:44   and everything. I'm like, when was that? Turns out it was the WWDC show. Like as soon as they

00:59:48   announced this feature, that very day, we walked back to the hotel and recorded an episode and it

00:59:52   was like, no, no. Like we had it. We'd never touched this operating system. We'd never even

00:59:56   seen it in action. We just seen slides promising this feature that like, we will take your documents

01:00:01   and desktop folder and magically sync them across to all of your Macs if you want us to. Like, no,

01:00:06   don't do that. It will not turn out well. Right. And I'll find the audio clip of saying that in

01:00:14   no uncertain terms. And a lot of people who have reviewed Sierra have said, this feature has all

01:00:21   sorts of problems. Now, one category of problems are even when it's working perfectly, as far as

01:00:29   anyone can tell, it does things that the user doesn't expect in ways that scare people, like,

01:00:35   as in, where did all my documents go? Even when it's working correctly, it does some,

01:00:39   has some strange behaviors where rather than just merging things together,

01:00:41   as soon as you turn it on or if you turn it back off or whatever, very frequently everything on

01:00:46   your, everything on your desktop is on the people notice because people know what's on the desktop,

01:00:49   or they know like, if you're a messy desktop person, you have icons everywhere.

01:00:53   If you saw all those disappear, it doesn't matter if like the files aren't actually gone,

01:00:57   you have that moment of panic and you're like, where'd everything go? Or if everything disappears

01:01:02   from your documents folder, you open your documents folder and there's nothing in it,

01:01:04   doesn't matter at that point whether that data is actually gone. All that matters is that people

01:01:10   briefly think it is and that makes people hate you, Apple. So don't do that. So it does do that.

01:01:15   It has a thing where it moves your actual files aside and then like uploads them and then pulls

01:01:19   them back down from the cloud and tries to like, I'm not sure why it does that. Certainly things

01:01:24   like Dropbox or Google Drive don't have to do that to function. They just like badge your icons and

01:01:29   and slowly make them, you know,

01:01:30   oh, this one has successfully uploaded,

01:01:32   oh, here's the merge conflict.

01:01:33   Like Dropbox does like the dumbest thing

01:01:35   that'll possibly work with like renaming your files,

01:01:37   but at no point does it delete your crap.

01:01:39   At least I haven't tried the Project Infinity thing,

01:01:41   but the regular one doesn't.

01:01:43   So that's that.

01:01:44   And then the other aspect are just plain bugs,

01:01:47   where it's supposed to do the thing

01:01:49   where it moves aside your files

01:01:50   and puts them up to the cloud and pulls it back down

01:01:52   and merges all together.

01:01:53   But many people say, actually it didn't do that.

01:01:55   And when I tried to turn off the feature,

01:01:57   my files went away.

01:01:57   And since they hadn't been successfully uploaded,

01:01:59   I couldn't get them back.

01:02:00   And I had to restore from a backup

01:02:02   or it started trying to sync them,

01:02:04   but then all of a sudden numbers couldn't open

01:02:05   my spreadsheet file because of that wonderful error

01:02:07   that I was getting from pages where it says,

01:02:09   can't open file because reasons, sorry,

01:02:11   and you can never open it again.

01:02:12   And I had to just like turn everything off

01:02:14   and delete all my files and restore from backup.

01:02:16   Like it is not a successfully launched feature.

01:02:19   Every single review and every person I've heard

01:02:21   who has used it has had some kind of issue.

01:02:24   Now, maybe there's millions of people using it out there

01:02:25   with no issues, I don't know,

01:02:27   but that there are enough people reporting problems

01:02:29   that I absolutely positively cannot recommend

01:02:31   that anybody listening to this podcast use that feature.

01:02:34   Even if you only have five files, just don't use it

01:02:37   because it's not worth the risk.

01:02:38   It's weird, it works strangely, and apparently it has bugs.

01:02:42   And there are other solutions that do similar things

01:02:45   that are proven to be more reliable.

01:02:48   Dropbox, Google Drive,

01:02:49   even plain old regular iCloud Drive, maybe,

01:02:52   but giving your documents folder and your desktop to this,

01:02:56   places where people store tons of stuff,

01:02:58   I think is a very bad idea.

01:02:59   And honestly, at this point, based on how it launched,

01:03:02   like I was saying that WBC half snark,

01:03:04   but half like predicting like based on past history,

01:03:06   this is going to be a disaster, but who knows?

01:03:07   They could have pulled it off, you know, prove me wrong,

01:03:09   Apple, I probably said at some point in that big rant,

01:03:11   they have not proved me wrong.

01:03:13   And given that that's the case,

01:03:15   I have to now think was Sierra crying out,

01:03:18   like was the Mac operating system

01:03:20   crying out for this feature?

01:03:22   Like they already did iCloud drive, which is like,

01:03:24   hey, we can do Dropbox too.

01:03:25   And in general, it's not as good as Dropbox,

01:03:27   but I feel like they tick that checkbox.

01:03:30   Like, hey, if you buy a Mac,

01:03:31   we give you everything you expect from a modern computer,

01:03:33   including a cloud-based drive that syncs,

01:03:35   that you pay more for more.

01:03:36   So like, they give you that, they have that.

01:03:38   I think it's important for them to have that.

01:03:40   And I'm glad they finally going to that

01:03:41   instead of what they were doing before

01:03:43   with the documents in the cloud and everything.

01:03:44   Like this is better.

01:03:45   Do they need to also add,

01:03:47   by the way, we'll transparently sync your documents

01:03:49   and desktop?

01:03:51   Because desktop is a place that people love

01:03:53   and people feel comfortable with and safe.

01:03:54   And if you make that feel remotely unsafe, that's terrible betrayal.

01:03:58   And the Documents folder can potentially change, contain a huge number of things.

01:04:03   I should go look here.

01:04:04   I want to see how many documents I have in my Documents folder.

01:04:08   You want to take a guess while we're waiting for the calculating size to finish?

01:04:11   >>

01:04:11   >>

01:04:19   I was thinking the other day about all the computers in my attic and how like they probably

01:04:22   don't work anymore because the caps have all exploded.

01:04:24   But I was thinking like maybe I can salvage stuff from the hard drives.

01:04:27   Because hard drive sizes have gone on that hockey stick type of curve, I always imagined

01:04:31   and this never quite paid off for me, but I always imagined that I would be able to

01:04:34   take every document I had on my five megabyte hard drive and put it on my 32 megabyte hard

01:04:40   drive.

01:04:41   And every document I had on my 32 megabyte hard drive and put it on my 100 megabyte hard

01:04:44   drive and like, you know, just basically bring everything along with me forever and ever

01:04:47   because I could take all the documents on every single computer in my attic from like the 68k era

01:04:53   and put them on you know in a tiny little folder on my SD because storage space has gone up so much

01:04:58   that there's no reason I just can't have everything that I have but it hasn't happened that way like

01:05:03   I've gone through discontinuities where I upgrade to a bigger computer but don't bring over every

01:05:07   single FOB because they're not relevant anymore like all my all my confabulator themes and my

01:05:12   icon collections for 32 by 32 icons and stuff like that.

01:05:16   I've kind of left those behind and I want to go retrieve them because I feel like the

01:05:19   total size of that is only going to be like a couple gigs or something and it would be

01:05:23   great to have all that but in practice I don't have a lot of that old stuff and it's kind

01:05:28   of a shame.

01:05:29   Anyway, my thing just finished.

01:05:31   I want to guess how many things files are in my documents folder.

01:05:39   I would guess easily 100,000.

01:05:41   Margo?

01:05:42   I'd go a little lower. I'd say more like...

01:05:44   Your price is right. $1, $1!

01:05:45   I'd say more like maybe $20,000.

01:05:48   My documents folder contains 1,897,958 items.

01:05:54   Oh my gosh.

01:05:55   Is that one per Chrome tab?

01:05:57   Can you imagine pointing, like checking that checkbox on this computer and saying,

01:06:04   "Oh yeah, no, sure, iCloud. Go ahead. Go ahead with that."

01:06:07   Like, there's virtual machines in there. Multiple virtual machine files.

01:06:11   There's huge numbers of things there. My Dropbox doesn't contain that. I'm not insane.

01:06:16   Like, even if I had like a one terabyte, like, but the documents folder is essentially where

01:06:22   every, and this doesn't include, you know, movies are mostly on my Synology and photos are mostly

01:06:27   my photos library. So the movies and photos libraries have really pared down, although

01:06:30   there is some old crap in there, like iMovie things I made at the kids and everything,

01:06:33   but documents like that is, that is potentially limitless. Like that's where for most normal

01:06:38   people now that you know photos puts everything in your library folder and everything documents

01:06:44   should contain all of your documents and maybe you don't have 1.8 million of them fine whatever but

01:06:48   it's enough that i wouldn't say you know go ahead sync this with your unreliable sync system system

01:06:54   i'll sure sure it'll be fine so as i was saying before this is the type of feature i'd be like

01:06:59   did we really need this feature is this a net win for the mac as a platform reputation like it must

01:07:05   have taken a lot of effort to make this feature. It's complicated. It's hard to do well. You

01:07:09   spent that time and money, and what you got out of it was a thing that makes people not

01:07:13   trust you in the same areas that didn't trust you before, and it's not making a better product.

01:07:16   If you could have taken that time and energy and put it towards something else, I think

01:07:21   it would have been a better use of your time. Or maybe you just dedicated to this and say,

01:07:25   "Look, even though the first one's going to be crappy, we're going to work on it until

01:07:27   it gets better," which, to Apple's credit, they have been improving the cloud stuff slowly

01:07:31   but surely. The trajectory is the correct direction. The slope just isn't particularly

01:07:34   and there are lots of backsliding.

01:07:35   So I don't know, this is not a,

01:07:38   if I had written a Sierra review,

01:07:39   I would have spent a long time

01:07:42   sort of condemning this feature specifically

01:07:45   and everything surrounding it

01:07:46   and how Apple can't get its act together on this,

01:07:48   going off into like my usual rants about

01:07:51   why is this such a fundamental

01:07:53   incompetency for the company?

01:07:56   And even though I'm proving there,

01:07:57   why are they improving slowly?

01:07:58   Why can everybody else do this so well relative to Apple?

01:08:03   I don't know.

01:08:04   know is that my worst fear with Sierra was that it would be on by default and that I

01:08:07   would somehow have to install with the ethernet cable unplugged to make sure that it doesn't

01:08:11   even attempt to do anything and then just stop it, but apparently it's not on by default.

01:08:15   I just got to be really careful not to be fooled by the wording into activating this

01:08:19   feature.

01:08:20   Yeah, I mean this kind of thing worries me because not only the reliability issues and

01:08:28   perception and reputation of your customers and potential customer data loss, but if this

01:08:33   goes wrong or thinking it went wrong. But overall, and I've used this rant before so

01:08:39   I'll be brief, it worries me how little the Mac is getting attention these days, not because

01:08:46   it really needs a ton of changes. I mean it is a mature platform and I wouldn't say Mac

01:08:50   OS is done and needs nothing else. And I wouldn't even say that it doesn't need anything big

01:08:57   because it could use big improvements, things like modernizing the AppKit framework to be

01:09:02   to be more like UIKit or allowing more code sharing there.

01:09:06   Cellular data monitoring and being able to have cellular max

01:09:09   and have that, which the fundamentals of that are all there,

01:09:13   but bringing it up through all the apps

01:09:14   require a little more work, stuff like that.

01:09:18   That stuff exists, that can be done, that can be improved.

01:09:23   I'm not sure it ever will be anymore

01:09:25   because when you look at where Apple prioritizes resources,

01:09:29   it seems like, especially in the most recent years,

01:09:33   they're prioritizing resources in basically

01:09:36   where the money comes from.

01:09:37   And so, and iOS gets the most resources.

01:09:39   And that's probably a smart move.

01:09:41   Like, you know, if you look at it objectively,

01:09:43   that's probably smart.

01:09:43   It does kinda suck for those of us on the Mac side

01:09:45   who we care a lot about this platform, though,

01:09:47   and the Mac doesn't get a lot of attention anymore.

01:09:49   What I worry about is not that the Mac

01:09:52   will just kind of stagnate forever,

01:09:54   but that it will get updates with new features

01:09:58   like this weird iCloud desktop document sync thing

01:10:02   that are actually bad,

01:10:04   like that it will get this kind of drive-by updates

01:10:07   that it isn't a high enough priority to really do this well

01:10:10   and knock it out of the park

01:10:11   and give it the resources it needs to be good,

01:10:14   but they basically use the Mac as kind of like,

01:10:19   it's something to support the marketing messages

01:10:23   and everything else of their other services,

01:10:24   or they kind of like give it lip service updates

01:10:28   where they assign a small amount of resources to it

01:10:31   occasionally to update something or add a new feature,

01:10:34   but they're not giving it enough to really do it well.

01:10:36   So it isn't just the Mac OS will stagnate,

01:10:40   it's that if Apple starts being a little bit careless

01:10:43   and cavalier with some of these new features,

01:10:45   it'll actually get worse.

01:10:46   That is what I'm worried about.

01:10:48   You know, if they just ignore it forever,

01:10:49   that's also really unfortunate,

01:10:51   and I would not be happy about that either,

01:10:53   but if they actually start being less careful

01:10:56   updating it, that is actually worse than not updating it.

01:11:01   That's a little concern here.

01:11:02   I don't think they're making it worse.

01:11:05   This is like an unforced error.

01:11:07   There's no reason that they had to add this feature and they added it and it's not good

01:11:10   and using it makes the experience work.

01:11:12   But overall, the OS is still better.

01:11:14   Like if you just pretend this feature doesn't exist, everything that you were using before

01:11:18   is at least the same or presumably more efficient and faster or whatever, and they fixed a whole

01:11:23   bunch of bugs and stuff like that.

01:11:24   And they have added useful things, like the picture in picture, this type of thing was

01:11:27   not technically that impressive, but it makes a big quality of life difference for people

01:11:30   who want to just watch video.

01:11:32   This is exactly what they should be doing, identifying what is the thing that people

01:11:37   do all the time that we can make easier at the OS level.

01:11:39   The thing that people do all the time is they have video playing in some window, usually

01:11:44   a web browser window, but web browsers usually, I don't know how people do them, but mine

01:11:48   are basically like sheets of paper, that proportion, but that's not the right proportion for video.

01:11:52   So they take one of the web browser windows

01:11:54   and either they resize it,

01:11:55   or if they can't tolerate doing that

01:11:57   because they're like me

01:11:58   and don't want the default window size to change,

01:11:59   they like scroll it, you know,

01:12:01   drag it half off the screen.

01:12:03   So just the video is showing,

01:12:04   but then there's like the ad banner on the top

01:12:06   and they try to, you know,

01:12:07   you're trying to get it so you can just see the video part

01:12:09   and not all the stupid ads around it in the browser Chrome

01:12:11   and have it off to the side,

01:12:13   but still do the other stuff you're doing in your work.

01:12:15   Or if you're full screen, you can't even do that.

01:12:16   You have to put the video on a second monitor or something.

01:12:18   Picture-in-picture totally solves that.

01:12:20   Something they can do really easily,

01:12:22   something they can build into one of their bundled applications that really makes quality

01:12:25   of life different.

01:12:26   Same thing with the tab windows, which is a lot of people want tabs, we can build it

01:12:29   into our default controls, a bunch of applications get it for free if you don't want it, you

01:12:32   don't have to have it.

01:12:33   If you're a developer and you don't like it, you can opt out of it.

01:12:37   But it's the same tab control we've been using in Safari, it's debugged code for the most

01:12:40   part.

01:12:42   And people like tabs, like those are the things they can do on top of make it faster.

01:12:46   Now, what I'm looking for at this point is like,

01:12:50   fix the tech underpinnings, improve that stuff,

01:12:53   make it faster, make it more efficient with memory,

01:12:55   new file system, which they did,

01:12:56   and it's just a developer building this one,

01:12:58   but like all that stuff they're doing,

01:12:59   that stuff excites me and I think makes the product better.

01:13:03   And features, adding big features like desktop

01:13:07   and document sync that don't work.

01:13:09   Again, I don't think it makes the operating system worse

01:13:11   if you don't use them, but it's an unforced error.

01:13:14   No one asked you to do that, and now you messed it up.

01:13:17   And if people do look in that part,

01:13:19   they feel bad about you and they feel worse

01:13:20   about your operating system.

01:13:21   So, you know, on the bright side,

01:13:23   the new desktop background looks really good.

01:13:25   So, this is a silver lining.

01:13:27   (laughing)

01:13:28   - Oh my God.

01:13:29   - I feel like that's the most compelling new feature of,

01:13:33   because what do people see?

01:13:34   Like when my wife comes home,

01:13:35   the only reason she will know that I upgraded

01:13:36   is there'll be a different picture of mountains in the back.

01:13:38   She really liked the El Cap background picture,

01:13:41   like the default one, she just kept that.

01:13:42   - That was a really nice background.

01:13:43   - Right, and to Apple's credit,

01:13:47   I like how they do this,

01:13:48   when we upgraded, it didn't change it.

01:13:49   It kept the old one, but I like the Sierra one.

01:13:51   So I changed the Sierra,

01:13:52   and I think it's the only thing you should notice,

01:13:53   and what does that funny colored icon up in the right?

01:13:55   I still have not spoken to the computer.

01:13:57   - Oh yeah, neither have I.

01:13:58   - Not used Siri at all,

01:14:00   but I suppose I might at some point in the future, maybe.

01:14:04   - I completely agree with you.

01:14:06   I don't know, I feel, I don't mean to come across,

01:14:09   and I don't think any of us mean to come across

01:14:11   a negative about any of this.

01:14:13   I don't know, I don't want to speak for you guys necessarily, but I'm not negative about it.

01:14:18   It's just the headlining features are features that fix problems that I don't have.

01:14:23   I don't feel like I've ever really wanted to speak to my computer, to use Siri in that way.

01:14:28   I don't think I've ever really wanted my stuff mirrored in the cloud transparently.

01:14:34   A picture-in-picture does sound very appealing to me.

01:14:38   To be honest, I just keep forgetting that's a thing in Sierra now.

01:14:40   And the iMessage stuff is great.

01:14:43   The watch unlock, it is very good.

01:14:44   I wish it was a bit faster, but it's very good.

01:14:46   It's very freaking cool.

01:14:48   And maybe in a month or a week or two

01:14:50   or something like that, maybe I'll find that feature

01:14:52   that I say, "Oh my gosh, I can't live without it."

01:14:54   But just only a week or two in so far,

01:14:57   I haven't found that feature yet.

01:14:59   - Speaking of things that people predict will not work

01:15:04   and actually don't work because the predictions are right,

01:15:07   things, I mean, this is having to do with watch unlock

01:15:10   as well, but things that are related to AirDrop, Handoff, or related synchronization without

01:15:17   wires technologies between iOS devices and the Mac have always been a little bit weird

01:15:22   and have not really gotten less weird, and the one that I think of in Sierra is the clipboard

01:15:28   sync between iOS devices and Macs, which totally sounds like an awesome feature.

01:15:33   But you just know, you just know based on past experience, like, you're excited for

01:15:38   feature then you're like oh but that's not actually gonna work reliably you just know it's

01:15:43   not gonna work reliably and everyone who tests it says it works most of the time but sometimes it

01:15:48   doesn't and you don't know why and like yep that's exactly how all these features work handoff airdrop

01:15:53   universal clipboard sync all of them i totally expect to work most of the time but sometimes not

01:15:59   work for inexplicable reasons that you can't do anything about and that never change year after

01:16:04   year after year after year. And that is the word. Like Jason Snell has great three paragraphs,

01:16:08   which is like a three paragraph concise Jason Snell style version of the seven pages I would

01:16:12   have written with exactly this sentiment. I tried to tweet a quote from it. I'll try to read it here.

01:16:18   It's like he's frustrated with the cloud sync feature or whatever of the documents. He says,

01:16:22   "What's going on?" I don't know. This is a feature without an interface. So there's really no way to

01:16:26   debug it. Sometimes it worked and that's pretty cool. And then sometimes it just doesn't work.

01:16:30   That's frustrating. Like that's exactly so many Apple features recently specifically related to

01:16:35   this technology we just know they've been out for years it's just it's going to be like that.

01:16:40   And it's not the end of the world like if it doesn't work it's not like you're losing data

01:16:43   it's not you know it's not the same as the documents saying but you know you're oh so

01:16:47   what your clipboard didn't sync or whatever but it's like why what is stopping this from working

01:16:51   reliably almost 100% of the time. The first one fine the first few years you're working

01:16:57   out the kinks or whatever but are we just now resigned to the fact that anything that has to do

01:17:01   with like sticking the clipboard i think is especially for small clipboard items even if you

01:17:06   have like a size limit that's as basic as you can get and like look there is there's a wireless

01:17:10   feature that we have that uses bluetooth or wi-fi or whatever the hell magic we're using

01:17:14   to hand off that data from a mac to an ios device that's sitting on your desk is there some technical

01:17:22   reason why that can't eventually, after several years, become reliable enough that we don't talk

01:17:28   about, you know, that it almost never fails? Apparently the answer is no. And I'm like,

01:17:33   just don't make any more of those features. If you can't make the ones you have work,

01:17:37   if you can't make clipboards sync work, forget about any of the fancy ones, right? And the thing

01:17:42   is like, handoff, when I was testing that in my review, it worked pretty reliably, but because

01:17:47   it's a beta, the one time out of 100 that doesn't work, I'm like, oh, it's a beta. But three years

01:17:51   later you're like is this a beta like i don't know why it's not working again as jason said

01:17:55   there's no interface there's nothing for you to look at nothing for you to debug there's no way

01:17:58   you can make it work aside from like oh let me just reboot and cross my fingers or something

01:18:02   incredibly frustrating and i feel like that's you know whatever that problem is that is bad for

01:18:10   apple's image it's bad because we won't use the new features uh if they don't work and people

01:18:14   will abandon them um and it's bad that apple needs to figure out like why can we not make this work

01:18:19   If there's some technical reason, don't make any more features like this.

01:18:22   But if there's not, figure out what it is that's causing this to continue to be a problem.

01:18:27   Especially if it gets worse for things like Universal Clipboard.

01:18:29   I would totally use that feature.

01:18:30   I want that feature.

01:18:31   That would be a feature I'd be excited about.

01:18:33   But everyone has used it and tried it and said, "I was really excited about this feature

01:18:38   too, but sometimes it doesn't work and I just eventually come to not rely on it and it frustrates

01:18:42   me when I need it and it doesn't work."

01:18:45   this is the one time where I will say,

01:18:47   I am an AirDrop unicorn.

01:18:50   It always works for me.

01:18:52   And I feel like what makes it always work for me

01:18:56   is kind of a few luxuries I have

01:18:57   of being a work at home person.

01:18:59   First of all, I have my one Mac and my one phone,

01:19:04   and occasionally TIFF's phone that are involved.

01:19:06   So it's like a small number of devices.

01:19:09   I set them all to accept from everyone.

01:19:12   That is very, very important.

01:19:13   If you don't set, at least the receiving one,

01:19:16   if you don't set the receiving one,

01:19:17   which is almost always my iMac,

01:19:18   to accept from everyone,

01:19:19   I've found that it works way less often.

01:19:22   And obviously there are certain situations

01:19:24   where you probably shouldn't have it set that way.

01:19:26   For me, AirDrop works great and I use it all the time.

01:19:29   Almost always I will use it to send a photo I just took

01:19:33   from my phone to my iMac,

01:19:35   because it's faster than iCloud Photosync

01:19:37   and maybe it's from a phone that maybe doesn't have

01:19:40   iCloud Photo Library setup, like a developer phone,

01:19:42   sending a screenshot or something like that.

01:19:44   It's great, I use it all the time.

01:19:45   - Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm a unicorn,

01:19:48   but I'm a horse who is stuck

01:19:50   like a little unicorn thing to his head.

01:19:53   You know, so it like--

01:19:54   - Like wearing like a horn hat?

01:19:56   - Yeah, pretty much.

01:19:58   No, I say that, what I mean is,

01:20:00   it doesn't work all the time for me,

01:20:02   and gosh, when it doesn't work, it is so frustrating,

01:20:04   but it does work pretty darn often for me.

01:20:09   So I am pretty satisfied with AirDrop.

01:20:12   I agree with you that I see things appearing and disappearing from my dock all the time

01:20:16   from handoff.

01:20:17   I almost never use it, but it seems to be working well enough that things are appearing

01:20:23   constantly.

01:20:25   So I don't really have any complaints about those features.

01:20:27   I've yet to try the clipboard sync, but I've heard a lot of mixed reviews about it.

01:20:33   But I hope it works, because that'd be another one that would be great, that would compel

01:20:37   me to upgrade, say, my work Mac.

01:20:39   Oh, yeah.

01:20:40   I would also, that would be a major feature for me too.

01:20:43   And when they announced it, I thought,

01:20:44   oh finally, this is great.

01:20:46   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:47   - But the reports that I'm hearing so far,

01:20:48   not only that it doesn't always work,

01:20:49   but also that it's a little bit slow.

01:20:51   And that, that's the kind of feature where

01:20:53   if you're going to have that feature,

01:20:55   it has to be fast and reliable.

01:20:57   If it's only one or neither of those things,

01:20:59   that's gonna make it hard to really get into your workflow.

01:21:02   - Didn't somebody say also that it doesn't work

01:21:04   with at least whatever clipboard history thing

01:21:06   they were using, that it wouldn't add to the history?

01:21:09   Like I use clipboard history all the time,

01:21:12   and if this feature kills my clipboard history,

01:21:14   that would be a reason for me not to upgrade,

01:21:16   because the most exciting new thing I got on my Mac recently

01:21:18   is the Payspot beta for the Mac.

01:21:21   I've already had it, you know,

01:21:22   I've been using various clipboard history things in the Mac.

01:21:25   The one that I had settled on before

01:21:26   is Jumpcut, this open source thing,

01:21:27   which is really ugly and silly,

01:21:29   but it's very reliable and small, and I've been using it.

01:21:31   And I switched to Payspot, which is much fancier.

01:21:33   I'm like, oh, this is probably too fancy,

01:21:34   but I really like it.

01:21:35   I like that it feels like it's going to be

01:21:37   a more supported product than the open source jump cut

01:21:40   and it certainly looks nicer

01:21:41   and has some interface niceties, but I need that feature.

01:21:45   Like my use of a Mac, it's kind of like window shade

01:21:47   used to be or all these other things,

01:21:48   like you come to rely on them.

01:21:50   At this point, a Mac without clipboard history

01:21:53   would feel broken to me.

01:21:53   So if Sierra breaks my clipboard history,

01:21:55   like I'm gonna be really sad and just be looking for ways

01:21:58   to find the secret P-list thing that I can set

01:22:01   to make it not do clipboard, universal clipboard stuff.

01:22:03   - Well, as far as I know,

01:22:04   I don't think it actually breaks clipboard history locally.

01:22:06   I think it just, I think the things that are remotely

01:22:09   brought in from the devices just never actually,

01:22:12   they don't actually hit your clipboard.

01:22:13   - Yeah, they don't get pulled until you paste, I think.

01:22:16   They're saying like it doesn't go to,

01:22:17   it doesn't actually transfer it when you copy or paste,

01:22:20   when you copy rather, it's when you paste

01:22:21   on the foreign machine that it says,

01:22:22   oh, actually I wanna pull it,

01:22:23   and maybe that's why it's unreliable,

01:22:25   because it's not doing it at the time you initiate,

01:22:27   it has to then go back to the phone and say,

01:22:30   oh, give me that thing that you said you had for me,

01:22:32   and the phone's like, what, I'm totally doing

01:22:33   something different now, hang on.

01:22:34   I don't know, I don't know what the problem is.

01:22:36   And here's the thing about these type of features,

01:22:37   like AirDrop or whatever, even if you're dutiful

01:22:41   and you're like, I'm gonna file bugs in this,

01:22:43   it's impossible to file a bug.

01:22:43   You're like, this one time it didn't work.

01:22:46   And then I go, you could send all the system reports you want

01:22:49   and give them all the information

01:22:50   and try to give them logs.

01:22:52   And I was just like, I don't know why it didn't work.

01:22:54   I don't know.

01:22:55   It's not reproducible because you try it again

01:22:58   and it works fine.

01:22:59   And you're like, what were you doing differently that time?

01:23:01   I don't know.

01:23:01   So it's the worst kind of bug to report.

01:23:03   It's incredibly frustrating as a developer.

01:23:05   like I can't fix your thing if the people who are developing universal clipboard or

01:23:09   handover like they can't fix my thing if I can't explain to help to make it how

01:23:13   how to make it fail and if it always a hundred percent succeeds for them and

01:23:16   all their automated tests and everything like I don't know what to tell them but

01:23:19   it's you know people out in the world are having it fail and there's nothing

01:23:24   they can do about it and the people who write the software I'm not sure there's

01:23:28   anything they can do about it you know I need give me a failing test case give me

01:23:32   reproducible bug otherwise it's just you saying this bad thing happened once and I have no

01:23:36   idea why.

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01:25:19   (upbeat music)

01:25:21   - Since we've spoken last,

01:25:24   the iOS 10.1 beta has been released,

01:25:27   which includes the portrait feature for the 7 Plus.

01:25:32   And this portrait feature basically is doing a faux bokeh,

01:25:38   gosh, I watched that video on how to pronounce it

01:25:42   and I've already forgotten what it is.

01:25:43   - The answer is however we say it is wrong, so continue.

01:25:46   - Yeah, fair enough.

01:25:47   So anyway, so it does the focal is what we'll call it.

01:25:51   And so what it does is it does a background blur

01:25:54   behind the person or in some instances object that you're taking a photograph of.

01:26:00   And so there's a write-up on this from Matthew Pansarino and then there's been plenty of stuff

01:26:07   put out by Serendi Caldwell. Lex Friedman has been posting pictures to Instagram that I'm

01:26:12   pretty sure are using this feature, although I have not confirmed that with him. And I gotta tell you,

01:26:20   at a glance, at a glance, they look pretty darn good. Under inspection, even for me, and I don't

01:26:27   have the most discerning eye, some of them look still look good, and some of them just look like

01:26:32   they're somehow wrong, even if I can't put my finger on them. I am, I probably have the least

01:26:38   discerning eye of the three of us, and Marco, as the person who I think is closest to a, a,

01:26:43   a quote-unquote "real photographer," how, how do you feel about this, and, and what are you thinking

01:26:48   thinking about this feature?

01:26:50   - You know, my thinking has evolved

01:26:52   as I've thought about it more

01:26:53   and as I've seen a lot of the people's pictures.

01:26:55   You know, before we could really only see Apple's pictures

01:26:57   and now that they've released this beta now,

01:26:59   anybody with a plus, with a seven plus,

01:27:01   can make their own.

01:27:02   And so, lots of our friends have it,

01:27:04   we're seeing these pictures all over the place.

01:27:06   And ultimately, I think they look pretty decent

01:27:08   for what they're doing.

01:27:10   Now what they're doing is not replicating an SLR.

01:27:13   However, if you view these photos on a phone

01:27:17   and you're doing like a casual look,

01:27:19   like reading through an Instagram feed,

01:27:22   or whatever the kids are using these days,

01:27:24   then they look pretty good.

01:27:26   And if you compare it to SLRs,

01:27:29   and quote real cameras that are generating

01:27:32   real background blur, using the actual properties

01:27:36   of the optics and the shape of the aperture blades

01:27:39   and everything else, to really generate

01:27:41   the nice, pleasing looking blur

01:27:43   and the various shapes of the circles and everything,

01:27:46   If you compare it to that, it's not even close.

01:27:50   The real optic version of this looks way nicer and doesn't have a few of the artifacts that

01:27:55   the fake one does that photographers will notice, things like the blurry edges around

01:27:59   subjects that the FOCA mode has.

01:28:03   But if you have your SLR, just use your SLR.

01:28:08   For all the other times, for either you don't own an SLR or you do have one but it's not

01:28:13   with you, it's kind of amazing that a phone can generate pictures that look this good.

01:28:19   Now that being said, the regular pictures from both the iPhone 7's cameras already

01:28:25   look fantastic. And the fake blur effect is literally just like, you know, it's kind

01:28:32   of like an Instagram filter. It's like, you can take very good pictures without it,

01:28:36   but if you want this kind of look you can fake it with this kind of, you know, with

01:28:41   with this kind of software effect.

01:28:43   It's a really good looking approximation

01:28:46   if you don't look too closely,

01:28:48   or if you're just skimming by.

01:28:50   It's really nice that it's there

01:28:51   because it's better than it not being available at all.

01:28:54   However, if you really want something

01:28:56   to look really good with that look,

01:28:58   a real camera doing it optically will look way, way better.

01:29:03   But in practice, in the modern world,

01:29:06   that doesn't really matter.

01:29:09   - I think I've gone the other direction from Marco,

01:29:11   He's coming around to like oh, you know, it's not as good as it could be but it's better like the more of these pictures

01:29:17   I see the more I'm convinced that certainly I would never willingly do this and

01:29:21   The more I'm convinced that nobody else should do this either because I they look really really bad to me

01:29:27   like the only time I feel I can get any value out of them is if there's a picture where

01:29:32   The background is really busy and would detract from the intended subject matter

01:29:37   and in this case the terrible blur they apply helps emphasize the part of the

01:29:42   picture that I'm supposed to be looking at but it always looks terrible to me

01:29:45   like I'm I'm not an expert in photography I don't even know what it is

01:29:49   that I'm seeing that's different but it looks wrong and bad and like someone

01:29:53   messed up my picture but you know blurring parts of it and one of the

01:29:58   questions a lot of people had about this was maybe it's using the other camera to

01:30:01   take it out of photos picture and using that for the background according to

01:30:05   to Panzarinos article, or maybe it was a tweet or something.

01:30:10   That's not the case.

01:30:11   It's computed blur.

01:30:12   - Well, and that would have been awesome,

01:30:13   because if you think about it,

01:30:16   and somebody could theoretically make a third-party app

01:30:18   that tries to do that, although I think--

01:30:20   - I don't think the cropping will work out.

01:30:22   - Well, the depth mapping information

01:30:23   is not exposed in the API at the moment.

01:30:26   And I don't know if it ever will be.

01:30:27   So you'd have to kind of do that yourself,

01:30:30   which is not an easy task.

01:30:32   But you could theoretically,

01:30:35   have the wide lens focus basically right in front of itself

01:30:40   so it has the maximum background blur,

01:30:42   and then have the telephoto lens focus correctly

01:30:45   on the subject and kind of combine

01:30:47   the optically blurred picture from the wide lens

01:30:50   with the telephoto lens's regular picture

01:30:53   somehow detecting where the edges are.

01:30:54   You could theoretically do that.

01:30:56   - I don't think they would match with the distortion, right?

01:30:59   Like all the lines, you wouldn't be able to combine them

01:31:03   each other unless you somehow distorted the pictures from the cameras like if the lenses

01:31:08   are making that's interesting lines like an offense and curved you know like you can do

01:31:12   it you know it's math right but it's it's difficult to get them anyway they're not doing that

01:31:17   they're doing the depth map they have nine layers of depth information they blur it and like

01:31:20   i don't know why it looks bad to me but it what it looks to me like it looks like they

01:31:26   blurred stuff in the picture and sometimes it's easy to know why it looks bad like we saw a couple

01:31:30   couple pictures uploaded by friends where their head happened to be next to something

01:31:34   that was a similar color to their hair and the blur like crept into their head and it's

01:31:38   like that's just, you know, like obviously it's not going to be perfect. You can't expect

01:31:41   to be perfect in all conditions. But even the ones where I was like, oh, that looks

01:31:44   pretty good. Something about it looks wrong to me. And I would say that if you took a

01:31:48   picture with an optical camera of the same thing with the same focus settings, I would

01:31:52   also say it looks wrong. I'm not even saying it looks wrong because it doesn't look like

01:31:54   it would be. Maybe I'm not even detecting things like, oh, if that was with the real

01:31:58   lens it would look different maybe it would look the same with the real lens

01:32:00   but that you wouldn't set it up that way I don't know well I know is I've had a

01:32:04   camera that can reliably do this for a short period of time I've taken plenty

01:32:07   of pictures of blurred backgrounds and I love all them better than every one of

01:32:10   these pictures I've seen though it's not to say like Margo said if you like it

01:32:13   use it whatever like and I've seen a few of them Instagram and sometimes I think

01:32:16   this does help I isolate a subject in a way that I find more pleasing because

01:32:20   very often if you take a picture with one of these things with like that

01:32:23   everything is in focus it makes your pictures look bad because it's like the

01:32:27   background that you don't want people to see is just as prominent as the thing you want

01:32:30   them to see, and this helps with that, but I am not a fan of this at all. Now this is

01:32:35   their first try, there's no reason they can't get better, and I don't think they should

01:32:41   remove this feature, and if people like it, more power to them, but I personally don't

01:32:44   like it.

01:32:45   Well, and it's never going to look right to people who notice the flaws, and I think you're

01:32:53   right in noticing it doesn't look right, there's lots of reasons why it doesn't

01:32:57   look right. The biggest by far is the edges of the in-focus subject where they

01:33:02   meet the background blur. In a real optical version of this, the

01:33:06   entire subject is sharp right up to that edge and in this one it looks kind of

01:33:11   like... yeah hey I'll make a reference for you John, you know how in the original

01:33:14   Star Wars where they had like the Vaseline under the speeder? I do know

01:33:18   - I know that part.

01:33:20   - The photos look like somebody put Vaseline

01:33:23   around the edge where the subject meets the blurred area.

01:33:26   It just looks like a badly messily blurred thing.

01:33:30   And the reason why is because the depth map information

01:33:34   is just not incredibly granular.

01:33:35   It's not very precise.

01:33:36   They have, I think they said something like six slices

01:33:39   of depth that they can reliably identify.

01:33:42   - There's nine, but it's not just the slices.

01:33:44   Like I'm looking into Panzarinas Art Gallery,

01:33:45   it's got a picture of a little girl

01:33:46   and she's got like wispy hairs coming out.

01:33:48   It's not that the depth map doesn't have enough layers, it's just that the depth doesn't detect

01:33:52   those hairs.

01:33:53   Like, light from a camera will do the correct bouncing off those things and the hairs will

01:33:56   be pin sharp if they're in the plane that's focused.

01:33:59   But the blur doesn't know the hairs are even there, because the blur has to say, "Well,

01:34:03   the head is close to us, and the fence behind it is far away, so keep the head in focus

01:34:08   and blur the fence."

01:34:09   But it thinks the boundaries of the head end way before those wispy hairs, so the wispy

01:34:13   Paris, melt out into a big smear of someone who'd like to use the finger smudge tool in

01:34:18   Photoshop and went, and like, it's just clear as day that like, it shouldn't it shouldn't

01:34:22   be like that. But I don't even know if that's what I mean, I can see that when people say,

01:34:27   oh, you know, if I had to pick it out, like, you know, in a multiple choice and find them,

01:34:32   that's how I would find them. But I don't even think that's the thing that looks wrong

01:34:35   to me. I think the completely clear totally not even near the info subject, like, in the

01:34:40   clear, can be safely blurred, doesn't look blurred to me in a way that seems right.

01:34:47   Like it just, it just feels like, like they're standing in front of a blurry

01:34:52   picture of the place where they were.

01:34:54   And so it's like, it was like a composite, like it took a picture

01:34:56   without the person there, they applied a blur to it, then they took a

01:34:59   picture of a person against the green screen and they composite them onto it.

01:35:02   And, or they printed out the background picture and put it on a big mural

01:35:05   and they're standing in front of it.

01:35:06   I don't know.

01:35:07   It's got uncanny valley, whatever it is, it bugs me.

01:35:11   - Well, and part of the reason why, I mean, you're right.

01:35:14   I mean, first of all, that whatever custom blur optimization

01:35:18   or whatever blur algorithm they're using,

01:35:20   it doesn't, like, the blurred areas of the photo,

01:35:24   all the edge detection aside, the blurred areas of the photo

01:35:27   do not look like the actual optical blur

01:35:30   from a camera lens would look if you took

01:35:33   the same picture side by side.

01:35:34   So that's obviously a big part of what you're seeing, Jon,

01:35:36   and that is a very real problem that I'm not sure

01:35:38   they really easily can solve.

01:35:40   Or at least if they did, it might be not able

01:35:42   to be done in real time on current hardware.

01:35:44   Whatever it is, that is not being solved well.

01:35:47   But also, I think we're kind of being sold

01:35:50   this bill of goods, like oh, you're gonna have

01:35:52   this awesome background blur with this nice portrait

01:35:55   and everything, well this is only

01:35:57   a 56 millimeter perspective.

01:35:59   You can get, I mean sure, you can on a full frame camera,

01:36:02   you can get decent background blur

01:36:04   with like an F1.4 55-ish millimeter lens,

01:36:08   but if you actually wanna get like strong background blur

01:36:12   for a portrait, you actually need a longer lens

01:36:14   to really do it well.

01:36:16   Like you need like an 85 or my favorite, a 135.

01:36:19   It is incredibly impractical,

01:36:21   but the pictures you get from it,

01:36:23   when you can actually like stand in the right distance

01:36:25   from your subject to get them in the frame,

01:36:27   'cause a 135 millimeter prime is incredibly hard to use

01:36:31   for with moving subjects,

01:36:32   But the ones you get that work from it

01:36:35   will be your favorite pictures you've ever taken.

01:36:37   Anyway, you need actually a longer lens

01:36:40   to get the amount of blur that makes portraits

01:36:44   look good most of the time.

01:36:46   - You know, I thought that there was a really good take

01:36:48   on this and it was Mike Hurley who had said it

01:36:50   and I believe it was on the last episode of Upgrade,

01:36:53   so we'll link that in the show notes.

01:36:55   And his point was, if I can paraphrase,

01:36:59   I'm not gonna get a DSLR or anything like it

01:37:02   And I'm certainly not going to carry one with me.

01:37:04   And for me-- this is really Mike--

01:37:06   this is giving me a way to make these pictures that look so

01:37:11   beautiful to my eye.

01:37:13   But I don't have to carry that big, heavy, expensive camera.

01:37:16   I can use the thing that's in my pocket always.

01:37:18   And yes, it may not be perfect, but it's a crap load

01:37:21   better than what I'm used to.

01:37:23   And for that, I love it.

01:37:24   And you know what?

01:37:25   I think if I were in Mike's shoes, I would say the exact

01:37:27   same thing.

01:37:28   This is not enough for me to want to give up my Micro Four

01:37:31   thirds camera and the couple of lenses I have for that.

01:37:35   But I think for anyone who just wants to take a pretty

01:37:41   shot with the camera that's in their pocket, whether or not

01:37:44   they-- like you said, Marco-- whether or not they have a

01:37:45   DSLR or something big, I think it's a really great feature.

01:37:50   And yeah, there's a lot that we can nitpick about it and

01:37:52   have nitpicked about it.

01:37:53   But I still think this is a really great next step toward

01:38:00   taking the iPhone cameras to the next level.

01:38:03   And I really applaud Apple for it.

01:38:04   And for a beta, it seems like it's working

01:38:06   really darn well so far.

01:38:08   - Yeah, and again, I think the democratization argument

01:38:12   here really can't be overstated.

01:38:14   Like, here, I mean, yes, this is a very expensive phone

01:38:17   for, you know, bought by privileged people, whatever.

01:38:19   However, we are now, you know, Apple is putting in the hands

01:38:23   of all the people who buy this phone

01:38:26   a photographic capability that,

01:38:28   while it is not as good as an SLR,

01:38:30   and will never be as good as an SLR,

01:38:32   it kinda gets in the ballpark.

01:38:33   And especially for, you know,

01:38:35   most photos these days are being seen

01:38:38   by people who are scrolling through social media feeds.

01:38:40   And you might stop on that photo for two seconds,

01:38:43   like at most, you know,

01:38:44   so all the fine details that bother people like me and Jon,

01:38:48   and people who know how these photos are supposed to look,

01:38:51   most people who are seeing these photos

01:38:54   aren't noticing those details,

01:38:56   and they're just enjoying the photos.

01:38:58   So this is giving like millions, literally millions

01:39:02   of people the ability to post better looking photos

01:39:06   to their friends and family on Facebook and stuff.

01:39:08   And people who would never have otherwise bought

01:39:12   and carried around an SLR with a really fast prime lens.

01:39:16   So that is a pretty cool effect of this.

01:39:19   Even though the pictures annoy people like me and Jon,

01:39:22   that is an overall, I think overall this is benefiting

01:39:26   the world for this to exist.

01:39:28   - Yeah, I agree.

01:39:28   - And well, I mean, Apple will find out

01:39:30   because they'll have the usage data.

01:39:31   If this is a feature that people are using,

01:39:33   obviously they like it and it adds value to their phone.

01:39:35   Right?

01:39:36   I personally think that the dual cameras,

01:39:37   the ability to non-optically zoom

01:39:41   when there's enough light for it to use the,

01:39:43   or to optically zoom, non-digitally zoom,

01:39:45   when there's enough light to use the other camera,

01:39:46   I think that will have a larger effect

01:39:49   on people's satisfaction with the camera than this,

01:39:51   but Apple will know because this is an opt-in thing.

01:39:54   It doesn't do it to you automatically.

01:39:55   You have to use it.

01:39:57   So if they see huge numbers of people using it,

01:39:59   then using it is obviously successful,

01:40:00   whether I like it or not, but we'll see.

01:40:04   There's another one of those things where we have to like,

01:40:06   watch the non-tech people who we know to see,

01:40:10   casually see like, are they using that feature?

01:40:13   Or do they even know it exists?

01:40:14   A lot of it could be like they're not using it

01:40:15   because it's not obvious in the UI or something.

01:40:17   Met so many people who think they have to

01:40:19   swipe the little line of words in the camera UI

01:40:22   and show them that you can just swipe anywhere

01:40:24   and it changes, it changes their life.

01:40:25   That's just a non-obvious.

01:40:27   another mystery meat interface from the people who brought you iOS 7.

01:40:31   But anyway, that's what will bear it out.

01:40:35   And I think potentially it could be a big factor in making people more happy with their

01:40:42   camera because now they can do a thing that they couldn't do before.

01:40:45   But I'm not sure people will keep using it, mostly because you can't just leave it on

01:40:48   all the time because it will ruin perfectly good pictures if you leave it on all the time.

01:40:53   It can only be used in certain environments where you know you're actually going for it.

01:40:56   If you leave it on all the time,

01:40:57   it's just gonna mess up everything.

01:40:58   So, we'll see.

01:41:00   - Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:41:02   Tracker, Fracture, and Igloo.

01:41:04   And we will see you next week.

01:41:06   (upbeat music)

01:41:09   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:41:11   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:41:13   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:41:15   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:41:16   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:41:18   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:41:19   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:41:21   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:41:24   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:41:26   It was accidental.

01:41:30   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:41:35   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:41:40   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:41:44   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

01:41:48   Auntie Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C,

01:41:53   U-S-I-C-R-O-C-U-S-A It's accidental (accidental)

01:41:59   They didn't mean to (accidental) (accidental)

01:42:04   Tech podcast so long

01:42:09   Alright, let's do some titles.

01:42:11   You know, the Museum of Pristine Apple Hardware is not bad.

01:42:14   Maybe the Museum of Pristine Apple Hardware?

01:42:17   I guess that's my favorite of

01:42:19   Once you pick like how do you two not have that unlike at front of mine of lists of weird things that I do that?

01:42:26   I

01:42:27   collect all this Apple hardware and try to keep it because it's a weird thing to

01:42:31   On my shelf that like don't have the bindings broken that are all in beautiful condition that are displayed out like that like it's the

01:42:37   Same thing. I mean just the list is so long

01:42:39   I've lost track of some of the some of the smaller objects on it

01:42:42   I and when people were tweeting that stuff out me I was tweeting back at them

01:42:45   I'm like you tell me like do you if you listen to the show like you shouldn't this is it's not a secret that I do

01:42:50   This like that's why they left it unsaid like what why do I care that it's pristine if it's in a case because it's not

01:42:55   Gonna be in that case forever. It's gonna come out. It's gonna join them join the collection

01:43:00   Like other people's like oh, what are you how much money thing here?

01:43:03   You have your iPhone 6 like what do you mean from leaving the house?

01:43:07   It's going and this one is also pristine on the back to this case is probably going to the garbage because the leather thing is

01:43:12   totally destroyed now.

01:43:13   Put the phone inside there, it's beautiful.

01:43:16   - And actually, I will say, part of the reason

01:43:19   I convinced myself to get Jet Black

01:43:21   is that I thought, what is the canonical color

01:43:26   of this generation?

01:43:28   And I thought, when I look back in my closet

01:43:32   at my row of old iPhones that I keep there,

01:43:36   all lined up as if they're on a bookshelf,

01:43:40   I thought, what do I wanna see there

01:43:42   once this phone goes there?

01:43:44   Next year, whenever I retire this phone,

01:43:46   which is probably next fall,

01:43:48   what color would look best to represent

01:43:50   this generation of phone in my little tiny museum

01:43:54   of well-worn Apple hardware?

01:43:57   And I thought Jet Black is the only choice.

01:44:00   That is the phone that will define this generation

01:44:04   of phones in my future phone archive.

01:44:07   - That makes sense.

01:44:08   - Yeah, I feel like it's the same thing

01:44:09   like that, you know, in all Apple's advertising,

01:44:11   like this is the thing.

01:44:12   This is the, even though that I really doubt

01:44:15   this will be the most popular model

01:44:17   because of all the scratching and people don't like,

01:44:20   you know, other colors that are more exciting

01:44:21   than stupid black one again.

01:44:23   This is the one they're pushing as like, this is it.

01:44:25   This is the iPhone.

01:44:27   The iPhone 7 equals jet black.

01:44:29   - I don't know, I mean, I'm guessing, you know,

01:44:31   I mean, because there are two new black colors,

01:44:33   then it's, you know,

01:44:34   it's probably gonna be split between them,

01:44:36   but people really like the color that's new that year.

01:44:40   - Yeah, only Apple knows the breakdown of these numbers,

01:44:43   but we'll see.

01:44:44   In my experience, I think most people find black boring.

01:44:48   Like, I'm amazed that I don't see more black phones.

01:44:51   In all generations of iPhone and iOS devices,

01:44:53   we're all buying the black ones

01:44:55   for whatever weird tech dude reason

01:44:57   compels us to buy the black ones.

01:44:59   Regular people are not so excited about black.

01:45:02   - Well, and honestly, if they only released the other black,

01:45:06   I wouldn't be that excited about it either.

01:45:07   Like if they only released the matte,

01:45:08   because I'm kinda tired of just like black geek hardware.

01:45:13   - Not that tired, says the guy

01:45:14   with the closet full of black shirts.

01:45:16   (laughing)

01:45:17   - Actually, I just ordered more black shirts today.

01:45:18   - I know, so if you're tired of it,

01:45:20   you're not expressing it outwardly in your clothing.

01:45:24   - Clothing's different, but just like,

01:45:26   I think the new matte black one,

01:45:30   as I said, I think it looks a little bit dated, honestly,

01:45:32   and it looks like a little bit too much,

01:45:33   like a new geek black gadget

01:45:35   It looks like every other Geek Black gadget.

01:45:37   But the Jet Black looks so different

01:45:39   because of that new finish that nothing else has

01:45:42   in the gadget world.

01:45:43   And that I think really elevates it.

01:45:47   - Except for every shiny piece of black plastic ever made,

01:45:49   including the iPhone 3GS.

01:45:51   - Yeah, but it doesn't look like plastic though.

01:45:54   It looks more like plastic than metal.

01:45:57   - Looks like scratched plastic.

01:45:59   - Well, maybe a little.

01:46:00   - I don't know.

01:46:02   Okay, I gotta get there and see this.

01:46:03   - Boy, I do have a lot of scratches.

01:46:05   What's interesting, almost all of the scratches on mine

01:46:08   are in the lower third of the case.

01:46:11   I wonder why that is.

01:46:12   - You're gonna learn where you rub your phone

01:46:15   against things.

01:46:17   You're like Merlin where his phone pokes through

01:46:19   his pants pocket, makes the little holes

01:46:21   to be most friction intensive area.

01:46:25   - Yeah, maybe.

01:46:26   I mean, the pants I'm wearing, they still have

01:46:28   the wear line in the pocket of the 5S shape,

01:46:34   which should give you some idea of the age of these pants.

01:46:37   I can date my pants by which phone shape

01:46:40   it has worn into the pocket.

01:46:42   - No, I never, I still don't,

01:46:44   I mean, obviously my first phone was a six and it's big.

01:46:46   And not that I'm afraid of it bending,

01:46:48   although I kind of am,

01:46:49   but I feel a little bit of pressure in my pocket

01:46:51   when I put it in any of my pockets.

01:46:53   And so it just doesn't go in my pants pockets,

01:46:54   it only goes in my jacket pockets ever.

01:46:57   I mean, I'll put it in my back pocket

01:46:58   when I'm walking around the house

01:46:59   knowing that I'm not gonna sit down,

01:47:01   but it's like, that's in short-term memory.

01:47:03   That's in like the little M1 in the calculator.

01:47:06   You have a phone in your back pocket, don't sit down.

01:47:08   Like that is top of mind as soon as the phone goes

01:47:10   in my back pocket and it comes right out of my back pocket.

01:47:12   I never sit down with it in any of my pockets.

01:47:15   It just feels uncomfortable.

01:47:16   Even if it wasn't gonna bend, I wouldn't wanna do that

01:47:18   because it would feel uncomfortable to me to do that, so.

01:47:21   - What else is in the short-term memory?

01:47:23   'Cause this is, I mean, loud.

01:47:25   - I don't know, it's high enough in there

01:47:28   that I've never actually done it.

01:47:29   I've never accidentally sat down

01:47:30   with my phone in my pants pocket.

01:47:31   So like, as soon as I put it in there,

01:47:33   like whatever, you know, whatever the highest priority,

01:47:36   like the registers in my mind,

01:47:38   like that's not an L1 cash, it's in a register.

01:47:41   Like you have a phone in your pocket, don't sit down.

01:47:43   (laughing)

01:47:44   - Oh my God, you are such a nerd.

01:47:46   Wow.

01:47:47   - And what do you,

01:47:48   when you bring your phone out in the summer,

01:47:49   what do you do?

01:47:50   Like when you're not wearing a jacket?

01:47:51   (laughing)

01:47:51   Where do you put it?

01:47:52   - If I'm going somewhere in the,

01:47:54   I'm trying to think about that.

01:47:54   So I will put it in my shorts pockets.

01:47:57   I wear shorts in the summer,

01:47:58   'cause the shorts aren't jeans,

01:47:59   they're not jean shorts, right?

01:48:00   They're just like--

01:48:01   They're looser right and so that and they have big they have bigger pockets and I will do that

01:48:06   So we'll go to the store or whatever with it in my and I will sit down with it because they're only front pockets

01:48:11   I'm not my shorts. I will sit down with in my shorts pockets just not in jeans

01:48:14   So I guess it has to come up if it did come up

01:48:17   I probably what I would do is put on my back pocket and just be walking around and as soon as I sat down take

01:48:21   It out of my back pocket and just hold I don't know how does it come up? I don't my clothes are very utilitarian

01:48:26   I don't wear anything

01:48:28   Nice enough that I've had to worry about this. It's just

01:48:31   Just scrubby shorts in the summertime and all the rest of the time, jeans, and then

01:48:35   I have some kind of jacket because I'm always freezing and the air conditioning.

01:48:39   Wow.

01:48:40   iPhone goes to my right front pocket.

01:48:42   Even with the sixth size you're able to pull that off, you must have looser jeans than

01:48:45   I do.

01:48:46   Probably.

01:48:47   I've been doing it just fine.

01:48:49   I do the front left pocket, which is the standard pocket for people who are over about the age

01:48:52   of 30.

01:48:53   Are your phones bent?

01:48:54   No, not at all.

01:48:55   Nope.

01:48:56   I've never had that with any of my sixth series.

01:48:57   Someone at work has noticed their iPhone and I'm like, "Do you know your phone's bent?"

01:49:01   I feel bad telling people this.

01:49:03   Like first I was more like, "Is your phone bent?"

01:49:07   Like I thought I had seen it but maybe it was.

01:49:11   People bent it.

01:49:12   I think it was a 6.

01:49:13   It's like not bent a lot.

01:49:15   Not a big deal but enough that I can spot it.

01:49:18   Mine I'm pretty sure is not bent.

01:49:20   I was thinking also about the caseless thing.

01:49:21   I've dropped this phone plenty of times like onto carpet or onto like a wooden floor or

01:49:27   whatever from reasonable height from like nightstand height or whatever that's why the corners of my case are nicked up and I'm like

01:49:34   Does that affect my caseless decision?

01:49:36   Would it have broken my screen on any of those falls if it didn't have the leather case?

01:49:39   Would it have dented the side of it like Christina Warren or whatever the hell she did with it?

01:49:43   Have a huge dent in it cuz I don't know

01:49:46   I'm so paranoid with like so someone was asking about like oh the self polishing thing

01:49:50   I tweeted a picture of my little I think you guys are seen in my little

01:49:54   That's not microfiber, but it's like a velvety kind of synthetic cloth. Yeah

01:49:58   yeah, how much so I've got in a leather case and then I always put it in that pouch when I'm traveling and

01:50:03   Even though it's in a leather case and in the pouch. It still never goes in the same pocket as my keys. Oh

01:50:09   No, I mean that's that should be illegal to put it in the same pocket as keys

01:50:13   I mean that's no this this is the whole reason why?

01:50:15   The why the correct pocket if you're over about the age of 30 is the left front pocket because we what?

01:50:22   - Yes.

01:50:22   - 'Cause what happened to a lot of people,

01:50:24   myself included, is we first developed our habits

01:50:27   before phones were a thing.

01:50:29   You know, like when we were in high school and college

01:50:31   and stuff, like we developed the habits

01:50:33   of having your keys and wallet,

01:50:35   and since most people are right-handed,

01:50:37   the most sensible place to put those

01:50:38   is your front right pocket.

01:50:40   And then when phones came out,

01:50:42   the only sensible place for them to go

01:50:43   was still in the front pocket for easy reach

01:50:45   if you're a front pocket person at all,

01:50:47   but your front right pocket was already taken

01:50:48   with your wallet and keys,

01:50:49   and you didn't wanna scratch up your phone,

01:50:51   So you put your phone in your front left pocket.

01:50:53   - Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, no.

01:50:55   You do not put your wallet in your front pocket.

01:50:57   That is barbaric.

01:50:58   - If your wallet is too big to fit in your front pocket,

01:51:00   your wallet is too big.

01:51:01   - You're a country boy, you're not putting your,

01:51:03   you put, if you put your wallet in your back pocket,

01:51:06   that's easier to steal.

01:51:07   - Yeah, that's why on the rare occasions,

01:51:09   I'm in a place where I fear for these things.

01:51:12   - Apollo Robbins could be around every corner.

01:51:14   - I did just listen to that, that reconcilable differences.

01:51:17   Anyway, you are right, Marco, for those who use keys.

01:51:21   But we are in this new amazing world

01:51:24   of keyless entry automobiles.

01:51:26   And so when I got my BMW, I flip-flopped

01:51:29   and the phone went from left pocket to right pocket,

01:51:33   keys went from right pocket to left pocket,

01:51:35   and that is far and away the better way to do it

01:51:38   if you have a car that has keyless entry and keyless start.

01:51:42   - Yeah, I kicked my keys out of the right side too

01:51:44   once the iOS devices started coming in,

01:51:46   mostly because I didn't trust my malcoordinated left hand

01:51:50   to successfully extract my phone without dropping it

01:51:52   onto a hard surface.

01:51:54   So totally the keys, but I don't, you know,

01:51:55   drop the keys, whatever.

01:51:56   Keys went to the left, and this is,

01:51:58   I'm talking about jacket pockets for the most part,

01:51:59   'cause I don't put either one in my pants pockets.

01:52:01   Keys went to the left phone on the right,

01:52:02   wallet on the right.

01:52:03   - See, I just developed a very, you know,

01:52:06   agile left hand because that's just where,

01:52:09   like, you know, first, when I was really young,

01:52:11   it was like a Palm Pilot, and then eventually,

01:52:13   it became a phone.

01:52:14   That was what was it in the left pocket.

01:52:16   And so I've always been a, like,

01:52:18   if I'm using my phone one-handed, it's my left hand,

01:52:20   even though I'm right-handed.

01:52:22   People who don't do this, this drives,

01:52:24   this blows their mind that anybody would do this

01:52:25   with their non-dominant hand.

01:52:27   - If you're not dropping it, it must work.

01:52:28   - I don't drop it, that's just the habit I've developed.

01:52:31   We will definitely hear from other people

01:52:33   who grew up the same way of,

01:52:35   everything was in the right pocket,

01:52:36   then my phones came around,

01:52:37   they just kinda went in the left pocket

01:52:38   because that was available.

01:52:40   And yeah, we're gonna hear from these people.

01:52:42   There are dozens of us, dozens.

01:52:45   - What is that?

01:52:46   What about lefties? What about those people?

01:52:48   We'll just flip everything.

01:52:50   [beeping]

01:52:52   [ Silence ]