188: $850 Fidget Cube


00:00:00   All right fine. Well you just go go ahead keep being smug. I'm not being smug

00:00:05   I take no pleasure in being right all the time, Gizzy. Oh

00:00:08   God

00:00:10   Please tell me you could hear my eyes rolling

00:00:12   We got a few pieces of feedback about

00:00:16   Some phrasing. Yeah, this is when we were talking. What was the topic?

00:00:21   We were talking about we'll get to it later in the fall

00:00:22   But in fact that yeah, it's just a touch thing anyway

00:00:24   And I kept referring to I was trying to refer to the region on the map that I'm visualizing in my head that includes not just

00:00:31   China I didn't want to always say China because it's like yeah, it's big and it takes up a lot of room in that region

00:00:34   But it's not the only country there

00:00:35   It also encompasses all the other countries that are sort of around China and I kept saying the Far East which is apparently a

00:00:42   very Eurocentric and not favored and slightly insulting term because it just you know

00:00:46   You're deciding like east of what east of like where people who get to name things are or whatever

00:00:51   So anyway Far East will be excised from my vocabulary to the best of my abilities and we'll go with many suggestions people's at East Asia

00:00:59   Which I mean, I guess Asia is the landmass and it's not the eastern part of it. You can just say Asia

00:01:04   But I'm gonna try not to say Far East and if I slip up just tell me again

00:01:08   Live in real time and Marco wetted it out

00:01:11   But there you go fair enough we need to talk about our friendly wager

00:01:17   There's some confusion in the ranks and I am also confused.

00:01:21   Well, it's not time for any money to change hands.

00:01:24   We'll just start by saying that.

00:01:25   Yes.

00:01:26   I would concur.

00:01:27   Luke Brewster called this to our attention earlier today in the 10.1 Beta, which was

00:01:31   released as we record just a few hours ago.

00:01:33   In accessibility, in the reduced motion section, there is now autoplay message effects, which,

00:01:41   To Jon's credit, at first glance appears to be a sub-setting, which I told him would never

00:01:47   happen with regard to messages.

00:01:52   That was so long ago.

00:01:53   That was practically a week ago, so, you know.

00:01:55   You don't have to be so smug, Jon, although I would be if I were you.

00:01:58   I'm just saying I gave myself until iOS 11.

00:02:01   That's called adding padding.

00:02:04   Oh, God.

00:02:07   AutoPlay Message Effects is its own setting.

00:02:09   Some have said, and I don't have a link handy,

00:02:13   but we'll put in the show notes.

00:02:14   Some have said that it's not quite so simple

00:02:17   and that it doesn't appear to give you any sort of lasers.

00:02:22   It just messes with some of the simpler ones

00:02:25   like whisper maybe?

00:02:27   I haven't tried this.

00:02:28   I'm not on the beta, so.

00:02:29   - So I don't have this installed yet.

00:02:31   - I do.

00:02:32   - But for reports from people who haven't installed

00:02:33   and Marco will give a report as well.

00:02:34   The reports I've heard so far is that it does nothing.

00:02:37   That the setting appears and the setting only appears

00:02:39   when you turn reduce motion on.

00:02:41   So if reduce motion is off,

00:02:42   you don't even see the setting.

00:02:43   Only when reduce motion is on,

00:02:44   do you get the second setting.

00:02:46   And then no matter what you put that second setting at,

00:02:48   it appears to do nothing.

00:02:49   Do you have experiments that contradict this, Marco?

00:02:53   - That has been my experience exactly.

00:02:55   Where I just installed it an hour ago,

00:02:58   just trying to get it done before the show

00:02:59   so I could try it out.

00:03:00   And we didn't try all the effects,

00:03:04   but I did try the full screen lasers and stuff.

00:03:07   and they will say sent with lasers,

00:03:09   but they don't allow you to send them.

00:03:11   Like you can't 3D push the up arrow thing,

00:03:13   it doesn't do anything, which I believe is the same

00:03:15   as whenever you have any reduced motion turned on, right?

00:03:18   And I had Tiff send me lasers,

00:03:20   and it still says sent with lasers,

00:03:22   but it does not do any of the animation.

00:03:24   As far as I could tell, it really appears to do nothing.

00:03:27   - So that thing is like not hooked up

00:03:29   an interface builder, as they say.

00:03:31   - Basically somebody forgot to like if def it out

00:03:33   for the release, like they were working on it

00:03:34   and didn't finish it in time,

00:03:35   and somebody just forgot to comment it out basically.

00:03:38   So anyway.

00:03:39   - And this is not one of the public facing betas

00:03:41   by the way I think.

00:03:42   If you are, I'm not sure, but if you're on the public beta

00:03:44   would you get this one or no?

00:03:46   - There is no public beta yet for this version.

00:03:48   I think Panzerino said it was gonna come out on Friday.

00:03:52   But I don't know if that's for sure.

00:03:54   - I wonder if that one will be different.

00:03:55   But anyway, that's motion on the front of the $1 wager

00:04:00   from the last episode.

00:04:02   But no decision yet because obviously,

00:04:04   this is not a shipping version of the operating system, so it doesn't really matter what's in it,

00:04:07   and B, what's in it is a switch that does nothing. And so on the topic, on this broader topic,

00:04:12   we got a lot of feedback about it, as you would imagine, based on the tail end of the last show.

00:04:16   I was not tallying the feedback, but I wasn't either. But I mean, impression-wise, I think

00:04:22   we will all agree that there were, most of the feedback we heard was from people who agreed with

00:04:29   me. That doesn't mean anything because it's a self-selecting group. Well, you don't agree with

00:04:34   that. I'm saying most, like it's more than 50%. I agree with you with caveats. I mean

00:04:39   certainly more than 50% of the words agreed with you. I agree with you by and large. I

00:04:46   will say that early on for the first couple of days it seemed like it was pretty darn

00:04:53   close. You were probably in the lead but it was close. And then after that initial wave

00:04:58   of people who listen in the first like 48 hours, then you just ran away with it. And

00:05:03   as always...

00:05:04   You're also not seeing the feedback that's sent directly to me.

00:05:07   Well, why would people tell you that you're right?

00:05:10   That's like a Trump claim, like, "Well, I'm hearing from lots of people."

00:05:12   Yeah.

00:05:13   They email just me, because my email address is on the web, or they @mention just me and

00:05:17   don't @mention the show, and I get a lot of that. I also don't see the people who are

00:05:20   just @mentioning you or emailing you. So there is that still, that dark matter. But the ratios

00:05:26   for the people who emailed "just me" seemed about the same as the public one.

00:05:31   You know, anyway, this is not a democracy. The only role I think that the feedback plays,

00:05:38   aside from curiosity and audience participation, is the only data points we have to measure the

00:05:46   idea that there could perhaps, for example, be people out there who use reduced motion for

00:05:53   a reason that KC decides is legitimate and also want to send lasers, right? And we had several

00:06:01   people like that write in to say, "I am that person. I need to reduce motion for what I believe

00:06:07   is a legitimate reason, but I want to send lasers." And the question might have been, "Maybe there's

00:06:11   nobody like that or maybe, you know, whatever." So people chimed in with that opinion to at least

00:06:16   give a few data points to those people out there. And again, that doesn't mean anything about whether

00:06:20   Apple should add another option.

00:06:22   And by the way, I suggest that they add this option

00:06:24   to Messages because Messages has settings too,

00:06:27   or if it doesn't, it can have them, right?

00:06:29   Because if you try to add the settings

00:06:30   in Accessibility itself, what are you gonna do?

00:06:32   Add a number of like a little options

00:06:34   for every single application that wants to have Tweak?

00:06:36   Like there's a place for those settings

00:06:38   and it's in Messages.

00:06:39   Now I feel like Apple gets kind of a pass

00:06:41   if they're gonna put it in the general section

00:06:44   of the Accessibility section,

00:06:45   because Messages is like, well, is that really an app

00:06:47   or is it part of the OS or whatever?

00:06:50   But this is not a scalable solution to UI.

00:06:52   And my original suggestion was, put the setting in messages.

00:06:54   Because if you make an application

00:06:56   and it has behaviors or whatever that you think

00:06:59   you should hide if reduced motion is on, but some of them

00:07:02   are borderline, make the default to hide them

00:07:04   because that's a safe default. But if you feel like you're

00:07:07   taking away too much or that there

00:07:09   may be a substantial portion of your audience

00:07:10   that wants to modify that behavior,

00:07:12   that's the perfect opportunity to add

00:07:13   a setting to your settings, to your settings

00:07:15   for your application that when reduced motion is on,

00:07:18   I also want to XYZ, be able to use the rocket launcher

00:07:21   or whatever.

00:07:22   So we'll see how this turns out.

00:07:23   - Yeah, it was interesting reading the feedback

00:07:24   because there were a couple of people

00:07:25   that seemed like they genuinely had an accessibility issue

00:07:30   and some of them weighed in my favor, some in yours.

00:07:33   The thing that struck me so funny was so many people

00:07:35   who were just passionately opposed to the zoom animation,

00:07:40   oftentimes with no ailment associated,

00:07:43   they just freaking hate it.

00:07:44   and then somehow think that it's okay for that to be off,

00:07:49   but balloons or lasers to be on,

00:07:51   like they're entitled to have the exact perfect thing.

00:07:54   - It's not about entitled.

00:07:55   Here's the problem with this whole angle,

00:07:57   which no one really said in the feedback,

00:07:58   and I was hoping someone would bring it up, but they didn't.

00:08:00   The problem with your stance is that it hinges on someone,

00:08:05   you perhaps in this case, being the decider

00:08:09   about what is and isn't a quote unquote legitimate use

00:08:12   of accessibility feature.

00:08:14   Like, some things you think are clear-cut.

00:08:16   You're like, "Oh, well, there's legitimate and there's illegitimate."

00:08:17   You see that you need it or you don't need it.

00:08:19   But once you have anointed yourself the official authority on what is and isn't what you consider

00:08:26   to be a, air quotes, "legitimate accessibility issue," you're binning people.

00:08:32   And it's like, there is a gray area in the middle.

00:08:35   Maybe we can all agree on the end points, but there is a gray area, right?

00:08:38   So I think that's just not a tenable standpoint.

00:08:40   I obviously think that who cares what that spectrum is if people want to use the feature they want to use the feature and

00:08:45   Totally removing a major feature of iOS 10 is a bad idea

00:08:49   But anyway, listen to that rant you can hear all this stuff again

00:08:51   The few points that we did that I didn't really hammer on that much

00:08:54   But that a lot of people said in the feedback is a lot of people are very mad that they can't send the effects

00:08:58   Right if you have so fine reduced motion is on for you

00:09:01   But you can't even send them to your friends like it's a feature is totally gone

00:09:04   In case people aren't clear about this

00:09:05   You can't send somebody lasers

00:09:07   Forget about whether you can see them like say you have reduced motion on because you can't have motion on your screen not being able

00:09:12   To send them feels punitive, right?

00:09:14   Because there's no legit reason for that right and you know and whatever like this that that's the first version the operating system

00:09:21   It was a point 0.1 or whatever they could change that but that's that's why I feel like it

00:09:25   You know, it can't stand and the other thing is about you can't use small text

00:09:28   I mean, that's not a motion thing at all

00:09:29   So there are certain things that you can make arguments against regardless of this debate

00:09:34   we're having about whether you need this extra setting. But anyway, that's a brief rehash

00:09:38   of last episode with hopefully less yelling. But either way, I think at this point, we're

00:09:46   all just sitting back and waiting. And I don't feel particularly compelled by the feedback

00:09:52   that the world is on my side or anything like that. Because like I said, it's a self-selecting

00:09:58   group. The people who are going to write in are going to be the people who are all worked

00:10:02   up like I was, right? So it's not a representative sample of anything. And I'm assuming most

00:10:06   of the people who listen to our show are nerds, and nerds are the ones who like to have these

00:10:09   features and so on and so forth. So I probably agree with you, Casey, that a lot of the people

00:10:13   really are like, "Look, I want settings for everything and so on and so forth, and I understand

00:10:17   how that's not going to work." But in this specific case, I think this passes muster

00:10:22   as a case where Apple will actually add a switch. And I'm hoping these little hints

00:10:28   that a potential switch that might do something someday mean that I'm right. And by the way,

00:10:33   final bit on this, I did file a radar on it. I filed an enhancement request because this is not

00:10:37   a bug. There's nothing worse than people who file bug requests and they list it as like severe bug.

00:10:42   This is not a bug. You're asking for an additional feature that doesn't exist. It's an enhancement

00:10:45   request. There's a choice for it right there. Anyway, I filed an enhancement request asking

00:10:50   for the specific functionality. It was close as dupe. So I feel like I have done my official,

00:10:56   you know, good platform citizen duty, and I have done the thing and now I just wait.

00:11:01   Can we get like "I filed" stickers made? Like the "I voted" stickers?

00:11:04   Yeah, I should. For radar, people should. I didn't think to encourage people to do it,

00:11:07   because obviously it's not a, it's a thankless process most of the time.

00:11:10   Is there some way that you could send me that radar number so I can file a radar that says

00:11:16   "Ignore John's ridiculous radar about how he wants to have his cake and eat it too"?

00:11:20   You can do that. Go ahead. If anyone wants to file a radar, it's a, you can, anyone can file

00:11:23   There's a feedback form on Apple site somewhere,

00:11:26   but developer accounts, like you can get whatever you need,

00:11:29   whatever like free developer account

00:11:31   without giving Apple any money or anything.

00:11:32   I think if you just have an Apple ID,

00:11:34   you can get to the point where you can file a radar.

00:11:36   - (sighs)

00:11:38   As long as that soup is just right, Jon.

00:11:40   Not too hot, not too cold, not too motiony,

00:11:43   not too little motion, just right.

00:11:45   All right, so a lot of people in East Asia

00:11:49   have written in to tell us about whether or not

00:11:51   the assistive touch thing versus the physical home button is real.

00:11:56   To recap, we had said that we had heard or read some reports that people in East Asia

00:12:02   use the assistive touch feature even if they are fully able-bodied because of various different

00:12:09   reasons, but the most common one was not wanting to damage a home button that is considered

00:12:16   to be fragile, whether or not that's actually true.

00:12:19   We had a lot of people write in, and I would say the overwhelming majority of people that

00:12:25   live in East Asia or have spent significant time in East Asia have written in to say,

00:12:30   "Yes, this is a thing," and generally speaking, it's either about keeping something

00:12:33   very expensive in good tip-top shape or because there is a phobia of breaking your home button

00:12:40   in the same way that Americans seem to be convinced that force-quitting apps is helpful.

00:12:44   Just an overwhelming majority, I would say.

00:12:47   I think we didn't get a single piece of feedback that contradicted what we said.

00:12:53   The only thing that varied were the percentages.

00:12:56   Some people said, "It's 90 percent.

00:12:57   I see it all the time," or it's like 20 percent, but nobody said, "Hey, those articles you

00:13:01   read were totally not representative, not a single person."

00:13:03   So I'm going to put a confirmed stamp on this one and say, "According to the people who

00:13:10   who report to live there, who send email and tweets

00:13:13   to our podcast.

00:13:15   That article is a real thing.

00:13:17   - Yeah, and there were some really good reasons for it.

00:13:19   I mean, as you mentioned Casey, a lot of times,

00:13:22   it's because these devices, these are expensive devices,

00:13:25   and depending on where you live,

00:13:26   it could be relatively more or less expensive

00:13:28   compared to typical life expenses there.

00:13:31   And so it really is a thing where people want to protect

00:13:35   this thing that they've heard wears out,

00:13:37   or that they had an iPhone before and it did wear out,

00:13:39   and they had to get an expensive service,

00:13:42   'cause not everyone can just walk into an Apple store

00:13:44   everywhere they are and get a replacement for free.

00:13:46   A lot of times there's more involved processes.

00:13:49   A lot of these places there are no Apple stores nearby

00:13:51   and you have to mail it somewhere

00:13:53   and that might be expensive and very time consuming.

00:13:56   There were lots of good reasons why basically

00:14:00   for a lot of people getting an iPhone

00:14:02   with a failed part serviced is a big ordeal

00:14:07   or expense or both.

00:14:09   And so there were a number of iPhones,

00:14:13   I would say at least the 4 and 4S and maybe even the 5,

00:14:17   where the home buttons did wear out for a lot of people.

00:14:20   It was a widespread problem.

00:14:21   And so there is basis for this.

00:14:25   Like there is a very good reason why people have this.

00:14:27   What I thought was very interesting

00:14:28   about this feedback also is that many people said

00:14:33   that turning on AssistiveTouch is like the routine thing

00:14:38   for the phone salespeople to do

00:14:40   as they set up your phone with you

00:14:41   before you even go home with it.

00:14:42   So you're walking out of the cell phone store

00:14:44   with it already enabled because the person there

00:14:47   either did it for you and didn't even mention it

00:14:49   or explained to you why you should always use this thing

00:14:51   and then turned it on for you.

00:14:52   - Yeah, I thought that was fascinating.

00:14:55   - And for the people who are sighted those reasons,

00:14:57   by the way, we had variations in the feedback.

00:14:59   I think we had some objections to the idea

00:15:00   that it was about resale value,

00:15:02   that it wasn't as mercenary as that,

00:15:03   that it's just like they don't want a broken thing.

00:15:05   And like Margo said, they don't want a broken thing

00:15:06   because it's a pain for them to get it fixed.

00:15:08   either it's expensive or it's just more of a pain, right?

00:15:11   So it wasn't like people like,

00:15:13   I'm never gonna sell my phone, but I still do this.

00:15:15   It's really, really common.

00:15:16   Now to most of these people,

00:15:18   like this is another example of humans being bad

00:15:20   at risk assessment and good at pattern matching,

00:15:23   gone awry a little bit,

00:15:24   because if you're never going to resell your phone

00:15:28   and if you're never gonna touch the home button,

00:15:30   it doesn't matter if it's broken.

00:15:32   You know what I mean?

00:15:33   Like logically speaking,

00:15:35   if you're never gonna use the home button

00:15:37   and you're never gonna give it to anybody

00:15:38   who uses the home button,

00:15:39   then why are you worried about wearing out the home button

00:15:41   because no one's ever gonna touch the home button?

00:15:43   Use it until it breaks and then use assistive touch.

00:15:46   And the reason I suggest this for the most part

00:15:48   is because I think having assistive touch all the time

00:15:52   is a little bit of a burden.

00:15:54   That's what I would think about it,

00:15:56   because you have this thing that's on the screen

00:15:57   and you're always moving it around to get out of the way

00:15:59   'cause it's always on top.

00:16:00   Now, to counter that, many people wrote in to say,

00:16:03   actually, assistive touch is awesome.

00:16:06   It's an advantage.

00:16:07   It's not a burden that I have to move it out of the way,

00:16:09   or rather that burden is counteracted by the abilities

00:16:12   that I have with assistive touch

00:16:13   that I don't have without it.

00:16:14   I had never even heard of these things,

00:16:16   but apparently people love the idea

00:16:18   that they can sort of use features

00:16:21   that would be harder to access

00:16:22   if they didn't have assistive touch,

00:16:23   because assistive touch is always on top,

00:16:25   and you can do all sorts of stuff from it,

00:16:27   sometimes that you can't do it all.

00:16:28   One person was saying that you can turn off the shutter sound

00:16:30   for the camera, that apparently you can't do it all

00:16:33   without this feature, but just having quick access

00:16:35   the functions that it revealed under it, makes it worth having on the screen all the time.

00:16:40   Well that apparently it's a lot faster once you get good at it. People were saying just

00:16:45   having it right where your thumb is rather than having to reach, and I know people are

00:16:49   starting to roll their eyes, but I'm being serious, rather than having to reach down

00:16:53   to the bottom of the phone to hit the home button, having that little white orb just

00:16:57   hanging out right there is in many cases faster. And I'm just as we're recording looking at

00:17:03   the AssistiveTouch setup, so it's general accessibility, or if you're John Syracuse,

00:17:08   just random customizations you'd like to make, AssistiveTouch, and then you can turn it on,

00:17:13   you can customize the things that are there.

00:17:14   So the defaults on my phone are Notification Center, Device, whatever that means, Control

00:17:19   Center, Home, and Siri, but you can add or remove the number of icons, I presume I can,

00:17:24   yeah, tap an icon to change, and there's all sorts of different things you can do, including

00:17:28   take a screenshot, for example.

00:17:30   So it is pretty cool what's available.

00:17:32   I still find this to be an annoyance for me

00:17:36   because I'm lucky enough to be able-bodied

00:17:38   and not have to have it.

00:17:40   But I can see why someone who is perhaps used to it

00:17:42   or just assumes like this is the way it's supposed to be.

00:17:45   I can see how it would be kind of convenient

00:17:47   and neat to have it around.

00:17:48   - Yeah, orientation lock is the one

00:17:50   that kind of turned my head.

00:17:50   I'm like, yeah, I wish I missed the orientation lock

00:17:52   on the iPads, you know?

00:17:53   - Yes, amen. - And like having orientation,

00:17:55   even though it's just in control center

00:17:56   and you know, it's not that far away,

00:17:58   but you know, some apps have to do the double flick

00:18:00   to get it up.

00:18:00   Anyway, if it was always available, like if you get,

00:18:04   what I'm saying is that if you get used to having it there,

00:18:06   if it's like, if it's the cultural thing to do,

00:18:07   'cause that's what this is,

00:18:08   this is not a technical thing,

00:18:09   and this is not even a preference thing.

00:18:12   At the point where the person you buy your phone from

00:18:14   is setting it up for you,

00:18:15   it's a cultural thing at that point.

00:18:17   There's no longer anything to do with personal preference,

00:18:19   let alone accessibility.

00:18:20   So fine, it's a cultural thing to have this thing on.

00:18:22   Hopefully there are some advantages, and there are.

00:18:26   Like it's breeding a set of users

00:18:29   who are good at flicking that little puck around the screen

00:18:31   and who each person customizes it to do the features

00:18:34   that they want to have quickly accessible,

00:18:36   the cost is that they're flicking this little thing

00:18:38   around the screen that's on top.

00:18:39   Now I would say to the people who care,

00:18:41   because maybe you don't, maybe you're happy,

00:18:43   you're like, this is the way we do it all here

00:18:44   and this is just how you use a phone,

00:18:45   I don't care what you say about it, that's fine.

00:18:46   But I would say, try it without assistive touch.

00:18:50   Use the home button until it breaks.

00:18:52   Once it breaks, go back to assistive touch.

00:18:54   If you're not reselling your phone,

00:18:56   I feel like that may give you a glimpse at how,

00:19:00   all I can speak over is the US,

00:19:01   but how I think most people in the US are using iOS.

00:19:04   And I guess the US side is maybe try assistive touch,

00:19:09   see what everyone else is doing,

00:19:10   smushing that little puck around the screen

00:19:12   to get it out of the way of the stuff they're trying to read

00:19:14   and see if you think it's an advantage.

00:19:15   Maybe you get into a habit of leaving it right

00:19:17   near your thumb, you know,

00:19:18   whatever grip you have on your phone,

00:19:20   that could be a good thing.

00:19:21   But it's hard for me to get away from the notion

00:19:25   that people are badly, badly misassessing the risk

00:19:29   of breaking home buttons on the current iPhones,

00:19:31   even on the 4, I would say,

00:19:33   universally using AssistiveTouch

00:19:34   for fear of home button breakage

00:19:36   is a terrible decision rationality-wise,

00:19:40   but if you set that aside and say,

00:19:43   "Whatever, let's just pretend they're doing this,"

00:19:46   there can be advantages.

00:19:47   And I think it's something that Apple will have to,

00:19:52   I mean, maybe they already are,

00:19:53   that's why we talked about it last time.

00:19:54   Maybe they're looking at this and that's why they made the home button that doesn't move.

00:19:57   But that Apple will have to think about if they're ever going towards this mythical home

00:20:02   button that we've discussed where like the whole iPhone is screen and you just put your

00:20:05   fingers somewhere on the screen for touch ID and the home button is on the screen.

00:20:09   Like the fully screened iPhone.

00:20:11   Maybe that's not going to be next year's.

00:20:12   Maybe next year is just going to bring in the margins on the phone.

00:20:15   But everyone has been talking about it for years and years.

00:20:18   What if it was all just screen and the home button was a screen.

00:20:21   Remember in the early days of the iPhone, it was basically religion amongst the Apple

00:20:25   nerds, like, "No, don't you understand the genius of the one physical button?"

00:20:29   And it's true, that was genius, but things evolve.

00:20:31   Yeah, we also said that was the one best screen size that we would always use.

00:20:35   Well, speak for yourself.

00:20:37   I'm saying the Apple nerds were all wrong.

00:20:39   It's obvious I don't include myself in that group.

00:20:42   But yeah, things had their time and place, right?

00:20:46   Things evolved.

00:20:47   a good example of that is even Apple had to eventually concede to the notion of

00:20:50   right-click. Like they don't put two buttons on their mice but you can

00:20:53   right-click on them, right? So things do evolve and it's best not to be stubborn

00:20:57   like Apple is by not putting a legit right-click button on their mice and

00:21:00   making you lift your other finger which is annoying. Anyway, things do evolve and

00:21:05   it could be that the phones eventually evolve to the point where they're all

00:21:07   screen and if they do evolve to the point where they're all screen, guess what

00:21:10   entire section of the globe has been practicing for years and years using a

00:21:13   phone entirely touching the screen without touching the home button. Yeah

00:21:16   And so maybe they can learn something from the use of assisted touch over there to influence

00:21:21   How not to screw this up when they finally take away the home button entirely and mark it was ballistic

00:21:25   I'll be fine. I mean the current the one of the seven already is mediocre. So it's fine

00:21:31   Easing you into it. There's small degrees of anger. Yeah, same thing, you know with the headphone jack

00:21:36   It's like yeah, okay now like here's what the way here's what they're gonna do

00:21:38   They're gonna start leaking to the Wall Street Journal in Bloomberg in February

00:21:43   that the next iPhone is not gonna have a home button at all

00:21:46   and it'll be all screen

00:21:48   and then we'll all get mad about it over the summer

00:21:51   and then by the time the fall comes around,

00:21:53   everyone will be like duh, it has no home button,

00:21:55   that's old news.

00:21:56   - I think you've got a while to go on that

00:21:58   'cause I think my, based on nothing,

00:22:01   my impression is that we're not there yet for the Touch ID

00:22:04   like to go through the screen.

00:22:06   - Yeah, yeah, there was a patent about it a few years back

00:22:08   but that's a whole different thing

00:22:09   from being able to ship a billion of those.

00:22:11   - Yeah, especially since next year's iPhone is OLED, right?

00:22:14   So I think next year is all about OLED and the screen

00:22:17   and getting everything tucked in there.

00:22:18   I think they can't do OLED at the same time

00:22:20   as they figure out some magical technology

00:22:22   to bury Touch ID under it.

00:22:23   So I'm gonna guess, based on nothing,

00:22:26   next year's OLED but Touch ID will not be on the screen.

00:22:29   - Yeah, I mean, and in all fairness,

00:22:31   pretty much every other manufacturer

00:22:32   has figured out how to put touch sensors

00:22:34   on the back of the phone,

00:22:35   and I always assumed that would be bad and weird,

00:22:38   but from people who actually use them,

00:22:39   they seem to be okay with it.

00:22:40   So that could be another solution.

00:22:42   - The whole back of the phone's supposed to be a camera,

00:22:43   not a touch sensor.

00:22:44   (laughing)

00:22:46   Right now, the whole back of the phone is a fingerprint,

00:22:48   what do you call it, like the things at the police station

00:22:50   where they take your fingerprints?

00:22:51   - Right, exactly, that's why it's perfect.

00:22:53   If it's already gonna be covered in fingerprints,

00:22:54   might as well use it for touch ID.

00:22:56   - Right, but you won't even need your finger there.

00:22:57   They'll unlock automatically

00:22:58   just from your leftover finger grease.

00:23:00   (laughing)

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00:24:02   Betterment, investing made better.

00:24:07   Moving on, Scott O'Reilly, who is creator of The Dash, a prior sponsor of the show,

00:24:12   he made a discovery a few days back.

00:24:15   He was, I guess, listening to regular headphones with the Lightning to headphone adapter and

00:24:21   had paused his headphones, or paused, I should say paused the phone and whatever it was playing.

00:24:26   He came back after five minutes and he couldn't use the little bulbous dongly thing on his

00:24:33   headphones in order to restart audio.

00:24:36   So he dug into this a little bit and eventually made a truly wonderful demonstration video,

00:24:42   which we'll link in the show notes, where he left a recording for some total of like

00:24:47   six or seven minutes, but basically played a little bit, I believe, of our show, paused

00:24:51   it by way of the headphones, and then let it sit for five minutes, came back, and sure

00:24:56   enough when he tried via the headphones to unpause it, it didn't work.

00:25:00   And so this was quite the brouhaha because when a new phone comes out, that's what everyone

00:25:06   that someone goes looking for.

00:25:07   And somewhere, although I don't have a link handy

00:25:10   at the moment, and we'll put something in the show notes,

00:25:11   we'll find it later, apparently Apple has said

00:25:13   to someone some way, somehow, that yeah,

00:25:15   this is a bug, we're gonna fix it.

00:25:17   - Yeah, and ATP Tipster said earlier in the chat,

00:25:19   for whatever it's worth, that we should probably expect

00:25:22   a 10.02 update, roughly in a week or two,

00:25:25   but I think he said next week, that will fix that bug,

00:25:29   along with the microphone cutting out bug

00:25:33   that has hit both me and Tiff during phone calls,

00:25:36   and I puncture out the little bugs.

00:25:37   So hopefully this will be fixed quickly.

00:25:40   - Yeah, it's good to get that feedback too,

00:25:41   because especially with the lighting headphones,

00:25:42   where we're like, we don't know what the rules are

00:25:44   of this new lighting. - Right.

00:25:45   - This headphone portless future,

00:25:46   we're like, is this to say,

00:25:48   people are like, is this to say battery,

00:25:50   or is this a feature that's supposed to be there?

00:25:52   But I was like, it was so nice to hear very quickly

00:25:54   from Apple sources through whatever means they have,

00:25:56   like, no, it's just, it's not supposed to work that way,

00:25:58   they'll fix it.

00:25:59   Hopefully they will actually fix it,

00:26:00   because if this ends up being like,

00:26:02   oh, we'll try to fix it again, every point release,

00:26:04   and it keeps being wonky, that's gonna be bad.

00:26:07   But anyway, they're not supposed to work like this.

00:26:10   It's not a feature that's like,

00:26:12   "Well, now that you've given up the headphone port,

00:26:13   "I'm sorry, you paused too long and it's gone."

00:26:16   - I love the idea of ATP Tipster

00:26:17   as like a PR outlet for Apple.

00:26:19   (laughing)

00:26:21   - Wow.

00:26:22   - And to be fair, ATP Tipster just provided us a link

00:26:26   to 9to5Mac where the headline is,

00:26:28   "Apple says a fix is coming for lightning headphones bug

00:26:30   "that causes playback controls to stop working."

00:26:33   Apparently they made the statement originally though

00:26:35   to Business Insider.

00:26:36   And as much as it pains me, I will,

00:26:38   yes, as much as it pains me, I'll put that link in the show notes.

00:26:40   - Isn't there any other site they talk to?

00:26:42   Like should they talk to iMore or Dalrymple?

00:26:44   Doesn't anybody else?

00:26:45   - I don't think so.

00:26:46   - Everyone else reported on the Business Insider article.

00:26:48   I hate when that happens.

00:26:50   - It's the worst.

00:26:51   All right, moving on.

00:26:54   But that was a very interesting find by Scott O'Reilly.

00:26:56   And I was really pleased to see that demo video.

00:26:59   And it wasn't sensational.

00:27:01   wasn't look at me talking for 20 minutes about how awful this is it was just very plain as day

00:27:06   I'm going to show you what happens make of it what you will so well done Scott O'Reilly

00:27:09   It's very failure to communicate in tweets though because that was the problem like I remember he

00:27:13   originally tweeted yeah people were like I tried to do it that doesn't happen for me it was like it

00:27:17   was reading comprehension and and difficulty of fitting a thought into 140 characters or whatever

00:27:23   it is with the new limit rules because it was like it doesn't happen to me and like wait are

00:27:27   Are you playing the song and then it cuts out after five minutes?

00:27:30   Or are you like, people didn't understand what was going on in a video was just the

00:27:33   most straightforward way to say, this is what I'm doing.

00:27:35   Look, here it is.

00:27:36   And then, then everyone finally understood what he was talking about and then everyone

00:27:41   could see that this is a real thing that happens.

00:27:43   Yeah, I didn't understand either.

00:27:44   And I thought he meant with any sort of headphones and I tried it with my lightning ones and

00:27:48   I was like, oh, this works great.

00:27:49   What are you talking about?

00:27:50   And then it turns out it was the adapter that was the problem.

00:27:52   So fair enough.

00:27:54   Speaking of, this isn't in the show notes here,

00:27:56   but we should probably talk about it.

00:27:58   Apparently a teardown has been done

00:28:01   and there is a digital and analog converter

00:28:03   in the Lightning to 3.5 millimeter headphone adapter.

00:28:08   - Yep, it's basically exactly what we speculated last time,

00:28:11   which was, yes, there's probably a little tiny DAC amp

00:28:14   in the headphone adapter because that's just easier

00:28:16   and they're really cheap.

00:28:17   And it's probably at the lightning end of the cable.

00:28:21   And sure enough, yeah, the teardown verifies

00:28:23   all that is exactly the case. Nothing really exciting here.

00:28:26   You're still confused about this. Last show I was talking specifically about the Lightning

00:28:30   earphones. Obviously it's in the Lightning end on the adapter, but just the plain old

00:28:34   earphones that don't have an adapter, the ones that come in the box, that's the strangely

00:28:38   funny part is the promise of digital audio is that the digital signal will get a couple

00:28:43   of millimeters out of your phone before it gets converted. Obviously it's going to get

00:28:45   converted by the adapter, but even the headphones it looks like, which makes sense because they're

00:28:49   going to use the same little lightning connector end.

00:28:53   The headphones, the audio returns analog as soon as it hits the adapter, and then it's

00:28:57   just plain old dirty analog signals going over those wires to your earpods, which apparently

00:29:02   don't have any little dacs in them.

00:29:04   Although looking at the size of these chips, it seems like they could have fit in the earpods

00:29:06   if they wanted to, but then why get two when you can just have one?

00:29:09   Why improve the quality over the wire to those terrible little earpods?

00:29:13   Yeah, I know.

00:29:14   It doesn't make a difference.

00:29:15   It was just, you know.

00:29:16   So from what I understand, I've read conflicting reviews

00:29:19   on this from people who have tested out the new AirPods,

00:29:22   but most, I read a couple reviews that said

00:29:24   they sound exactly like just a wireless version

00:29:27   of the wired ones that we've had for years,

00:29:29   which would be pretty disappointing

00:29:30   'cause the wired ones sound terrible.

00:29:32   But most of the reviews have said

00:29:33   they sound noticeably better.

00:29:35   So I am actually now curious about them.

00:29:37   I have my doubts on whether they will fit me at all,

00:29:42   whether I'll be able to wear them comfortably,

00:29:44   but some people have said that they could never comfortably

00:29:46   wear the other ones, but these are now comfortable to them.

00:29:49   So I'm interested.

00:29:51   - Yeah, I've read that as well too,

00:29:52   and I don't understand that, because every picture,

00:29:56   like they look the same.

00:29:57   Is there a scale thing on the picture,

00:29:59   or is there a perspective thing?

00:30:00   - Well part of it could be like, if the weight of the wire--

00:30:03   - Oh, the wire.

00:30:04   The wire's not pulling on it.

00:30:05   - If that, yeah, like that could affect

00:30:06   how it fits for you in practice, but I don't know.

00:30:09   I think it's unlikely I will end up liking them,

00:30:12   and if I hate them, I'll just give them to Tiff,

00:30:13   but, 'cause she wears those ear pods sometimes,

00:30:16   so that's fine.

00:30:17   I should probably test all the Bluetooth headphones

00:30:19   that exist in the world anyway for my big headphone review.

00:30:22   But yeah, basically, I'm curious about them.

00:30:24   Everyone says they work really well.

00:30:26   I'm pretty happy with my Bluetooth headphones,

00:30:28   my little Sennheiser Bluetooth things.

00:30:30   But, you know, if worse comes to worse,

00:30:33   I guess I'll get something to review.

00:30:35   My one reservation on AirPods,

00:30:39   which I think every review has pointed out so far,

00:30:41   and many people on Twitter have pointed out as well

00:30:43   who are speculating about it,

00:30:45   I do think that it will be annoying

00:30:47   to not have any kind of meaningful remote control ability

00:30:50   on them except either Siri or Play Pause.

00:30:53   Like to not have an easy volume control.

00:30:55   - Or your watch.

00:30:56   - But that's still not as fast as reaching

00:30:59   through the clicker and hitting a button.

00:31:00   And yeah, not my watch.

00:31:01   - No, that's the bad you made yourself.

00:31:04   - Even with the Apple Watch.

00:31:06   By the way, on my watch, telling the time 100 times a day

00:31:09   is way faster than telling the time on your Apple Watch.

00:31:12   It also doesn't need to be charged ever.

00:31:14   But anyway, that's the bet you make Casey.

00:31:15   - You just need to buy a winder for it.

00:31:18   - It wasn't for the ones I was wearing.

00:31:21   - Yeah, that's the thing, that's the best part

00:31:22   is that that's really a thing.

00:31:23   You can get your watch case with an automatic winder.

00:31:25   - It's totally optional.

00:31:27   - Totally barbaric.

00:31:28   - You can also hire a man named Jeeves to wind them for you.

00:31:31   - That sounds amazing.

00:31:31   - Can you ask him stuff too?

00:31:33   Anantech, or NonTech, or however you pronounce this,

00:31:36   reports on a Chipworks report that says

00:31:39   there's three audio amps in the phone.

00:31:41   And so they say, this is a non-Tech, AnandTech, however you pronounce it,

00:31:45   "One interesting aspect of the Chipworks report is that they unexpectedly found a third audio amplifier.

00:31:50   Chipworks was expecting to find two, one for each of the speakers, but came up with a third.

00:31:54   The firm believes that the third amp may be for headphones, which in turn would mean that Apple significantly revised the lightning port specification for the iPhone 7.

00:32:07   Previously, lightning has only carried digital audio, which doesn't require an amp in the phone itself.

00:32:11   In the initial iPhone 7 announcement, I had speculated that Apple put the DAC and AMP

00:32:16   inside their 3.5mm adapter, which we now know is true, which would be consistent with how

00:32:20   Lightning has worked for over the last four years, but this cast doubt on that area, or

00:32:23   on that idea.

00:32:24   So now, this was written before this teardown that we were just speaking of.

00:32:28   So why the third AMP then?

00:32:31   Obviously, it's because it's easier to put that in there and then you can make a go/no

00:32:36   go on the headphone port removal at any time.

00:32:38   That's my guess.

00:32:39   There's three in there, but there's three in the 6S, right?

00:32:43   Or there would be one for the headphone, not three, because there's only one speaker.

00:32:46   But anyway, you know what I mean.

00:32:48   It's there for the headphone jack that's not there.

00:32:50   That's totally a thing.

00:32:51   I mean, do you remember, what was it?

00:32:53   I think it was an iPod Touch or something that if you took it apart, you saw there was

00:32:57   a hole for where the thing was supposed to be.

00:32:59   This is just part of hardware manufacturing.

00:33:01   You recover your bets.

00:33:02   Those little chips cost nothing.

00:33:03   If they have the space for it, they're going to put it there.

00:33:05   so then they have the option once they finalize the spec

00:33:08   and all the electrical, you know, blah, blah, blah.

00:33:10   That's my guess, unless they were just totally wrong

00:33:12   and misidentify the chip,

00:33:13   unless it's used for some other purpose,

00:33:14   someone in Apple hardware can tell us,

00:33:16   but it's totally plausible to me

00:33:18   that that's just a thing that they put there

00:33:19   that they didn't happen to use.

00:33:20   - I mean, it's also possible,

00:33:21   like the second one could be used for the second speaker.

00:33:24   Like they might not be running one amp

00:33:26   to drive two speakers,

00:33:27   maybe they have one in each of them

00:33:28   for various electrical convenience reasons

00:33:31   or better cable routing or less power.

00:33:34   - That's what I said, but there's three of them though.

00:33:36   - Right, well, one for each speaker and one for,

00:33:39   oh yeah, I guess.

00:33:40   - Yeah, math is hard.

00:33:42   - Well, it could be for the microphone.

00:33:43   I mean, these things are so cheap,

00:33:45   and like, anytime you're running analog audio traces

00:33:48   on a circuit board in a digital device

00:33:50   full of various, you know, interference sources,

00:33:53   you have to be pretty careful where you can run those

00:33:55   without picking up noise and other problems

00:33:57   on the analog signals.

00:33:59   And because these little DAC amp chips are so tiny

00:34:02   and so dirt cheap, you can basically put them

00:34:05   wherever you feel like, wherever it's convenient

00:34:06   for the rest of your needs.

00:34:08   So if it's most convenient to have another one

00:34:11   for the microphone and not use the same one

00:34:13   that is used by the bottom speaker,

00:34:16   then they can do that, it's really no big deal.

00:34:18   These chips are tiny and cost nothing.

00:34:20   - Anyway, if the goal was to figure out

00:34:23   whether the adapters use a DAC,

00:34:25   the best way to do it was to open up the DACs

00:34:26   and that's what people did.

00:34:27   Although, people have opened them up

00:34:29   and melted off all the plastic

00:34:31   and seeing the little number on the chips.

00:34:34   But because Apple uses so many custom things and everything,

00:34:37   I don't know if anyone has tracked that number down

00:34:39   and said definitively that this is a DAC amp thing,

00:34:41   but that's what everyone believes it to be,

00:34:43   and it totally makes sense.

00:34:44   So I would consider this matter settled

00:34:47   until somebody says, "Wait, wait, wait,

00:34:48   that chip actually isn't doing what you think it is."

00:34:51   - All right, so John, you seem to be claiming

00:34:54   by way of the show notes and links to Twitter

00:34:56   that you are semi-clearvoyant.

00:34:58   Would you like to talk about this?

00:34:59   No, I was just thinking about the Jet Black phone,

00:35:03   because I'm still in the deciding mode

00:35:06   of whether I'm going to get Jet Black or not,

00:35:07   and whether I'm going to use it without a case.

00:35:09   And anyway, like I said, I got to see it in person,

00:35:11   and so on and so forth.

00:35:12   But we're at the phase now where people

00:35:13   have their Jet Black iPhones,

00:35:15   and are posting pictures of their various scratches,

00:35:17   or in the case of Christina Warren,

00:35:18   their gigantic dents, and saying,

00:35:21   "This is what a Jet Black iPhone's going to look like,

00:35:23   either fingerprint-wise, or the scratches, or whatever."

00:35:25   And I have to decide whether that's worth it to me,

00:35:28   and so on and so forth.

00:35:29   And it made me think again about a topic that I have visited in past podcasts.

00:35:34   And I tried to do some research.

00:35:36   So I was like, isn't there an episode where I talked about this?

00:35:39   And in doing my research, I found out there's like 900 episodes

00:35:42   where I talked about this.

00:35:42   I talked about all the time for like cumulatively hours.

00:35:47   So, you know, it's good that I don't remember my past that well.

00:35:49   But anyway, because I did all the research, I'm not going

00:35:51   to bore you all with it now.

00:35:53   We'll put a bunch of links in the show notes to me talking about the issue of

00:35:58   electronics and how they wear as you use them. As they get older, do they look crappier and

00:36:04   you like them less, or do they develop a patina or become familiar and you love them more

00:36:11   as they age and they become worn in? That dichotomy has been discussed by many people

00:36:17   on the web. In fact, these early episodes of Hypercritical where I talk about this,

00:36:20   I'm just citing a blog post that themselves comes from years earlier. I think the last

00:36:25   Last time it came up in our little circle in a big way was with the iPhone 5, with the

00:36:30   original black back on the iPhone 5 where the black would scratch off and you'd see

00:36:33   the aluminum color and everything.

00:36:35   That was the jet black of the day where I was complaining about the scratches.

00:36:40   And at that time, this was 2012, I tweeted that an iPhone with three scratches may look

00:36:44   awful but best case an iPhone with 5,000 scratches would look like the Millennium Falcon.

00:36:49   And that was me trying to give my view of like, "Alright, so one or two scratches is

00:36:53   "Oh no, my beautiful, perfect iPhone 5 is now scratched."

00:36:57   With a thousand scratches,

00:36:58   everyone loves the Millennium Falcon, man.

00:36:59   It looks like a hunk of junk,

00:37:00   but it's got it where it counts.

00:37:02   Like, you love the Millennium Falcon

00:37:04   because it looks worn and lived in and everything.

00:37:07   So that's what I was trying to get at.

00:37:09   I don't know if the Jet Black iPhone qualifies for that.

00:37:11   I don't know if any of Apple's current products do,

00:37:12   but God, I talked about it so much on these podcasts.

00:37:14   So we'll put links to these blog posts,

00:37:17   some of them by Koi Vinh,

00:37:19   someone who had that original iPhone

00:37:21   that was really worn down.

00:37:22   It looks super awesome.

00:37:23   And the links will have timestamps in them

00:37:26   using Marco's cool overcast timestamp jumping feature

00:37:29   that works really well with CBR audio.

00:37:31   (laughing)

00:37:33   So you can jump directly to the timestamp

00:37:36   and listen to me talk about this for a long time

00:37:38   and I'll spare you from it now.

00:37:40   - Ed Ryan writes in to say the Bluetooth stack

00:37:42   almost certainly doesn't bitstream

00:37:44   without decoding to PCM first,

00:37:46   you'd have no volume control.

00:37:47   Marco, you wanna kinda translate that

00:37:49   into regular human for me?

00:37:51   - Sure, so last episode we were talking about

00:37:53   Casey or audio file friends, they had a concern that in order for audio to be transmitted

00:37:58   to Bluetooth headphones, it was generally being recompressed as in some other kind of

00:38:02   lossy format depending on the headphones and the phone and you know, that could be used

00:38:06   different codecs whether it was the old ATDP SBC thing or whether it was something more

00:38:11   advanced like AptX or AAC. Basically, any audio sent to Bluetooth headphones is being

00:38:20   encoded in some kind of lossy format

00:38:23   in order to make that transmission happen

00:38:24   in a practical way.

00:38:25   And so one of the options that John, you had asked about,

00:38:29   was what if, if you have an AAC audio source

00:38:34   and you have headphones and a phone

00:38:36   that can transmit over Bluetooth in the AAC format,

00:38:39   would there be some kind of intelligence there

00:38:41   that it could just like pass it through untouched

00:38:44   so it wouldn't be decoding it and then re-encoding it

00:38:46   and possibly incurring a quality loss there.

00:38:49   And Ed Rine's pointing out here that basically

00:38:53   if you don't decode it and then re-encode it

00:38:56   back to the headphones, if you don't do that,

00:38:58   you generally can't adjust the volume.

00:39:01   And that's technically not entirely true.

00:39:04   There are, like in the way the files are represented,

00:39:07   in the way audio's represented in these lossy forms,

00:39:10   it is actually possible in many cases,

00:39:13   depending on the format, to adjust the volume

00:39:16   without transcoding it, basically.

00:39:18   to actually modify the encoded compressed data,

00:39:21   because a lot of times it's represented as frequency,

00:39:24   volume, frequency, volume,

00:39:25   and so you can just drop those volume values.

00:39:28   Now, it doesn't know, you can't always do it,

00:39:30   depending on the exact encoding,

00:39:32   but it is technically possible to do that in some cases.

00:39:36   However, that's a lot of complexity

00:39:38   in addition to all the other complexity

00:39:39   that would be involved in passing this bitstream

00:39:41   through unmodified or minimally modified

00:39:43   without decoding to regular samples first.

00:39:46   So basically this isn't happening.

00:39:48   And I should also point out a friend of the show,

00:39:51   Mark Edwards, from Bijango Software,

00:39:53   makers of the amazing iStat Menus app,

00:39:56   which everyone here except John uses.

00:39:59   - True story.

00:40:00   (laughing)

00:40:00   - He's an audiophile, and one of the good ones.

00:40:03   And he and I had a Twitter exchange earlier.

00:40:06   Basically, my position last episode

00:40:09   on whether Bluetooth lossy codecs matter,

00:40:13   My position is basically Bluetooth headphones

00:40:16   have such mediocre headphone drivers,

00:40:19   like the actual speaker parts of the headphones,

00:40:21   they're so mediocre on almost everything that's out there

00:40:24   that whatever quality loss you might incur

00:40:29   by effectively double encoding your music

00:40:31   would be undetectable compared to the poor quality

00:40:34   of the headphones themselves.

00:40:35   You'd need better quality headphones

00:40:38   to really hear that difference.

00:40:40   And so Mark took me to task for that,

00:40:43   Understandably, he's right.

00:40:45   You know, that is kind of a separate issue.

00:40:47   Like, Bluetooth headphones could get better.

00:40:50   Maybe the reason they don't have better drivers

00:40:52   is because when you put better drivers

00:40:53   in Bluetooth headphones, maybe they sound crap

00:40:55   because of the double encoding.

00:40:57   So that is totally a valid counterargument

00:40:59   to what I was saying, which I didn't really consider.

00:41:01   But thanks to Mark Edwards for pointing that out.

00:41:04   He's right.

00:41:05   It is possible this is audible,

00:41:07   and maybe we'll do some experiments and try.

00:41:11   But the bigger problem right now is that Bluetooth headphones

00:41:13   are generally pretty mediocre sounding.

00:41:16   So if this is a problem, we can't tell.

00:41:19   - One more thing on the bitstreaming.

00:41:21   The solution to that, if they wanted to bitstream,

00:41:23   is you gotta put the volume control on the headphones.

00:41:25   And obviously that's not gonna work on little tiny ear pods,

00:41:27   but if you had big honking headphones,

00:41:29   you can bitstream to them,

00:41:30   and the DAC would be in the headphones,

00:41:32   and the volume control could also be there in theory.

00:41:35   Not that I think they're gonna do that, but.

00:41:37   - Many Bluetooth headphones have volume control built in.

00:41:39   And it's kind of like one of the ways that they differ

00:41:42   is like some of them, when you push the volume buttons

00:41:45   on the headphone, it just controls the source devices

00:41:48   logical volume for that headphone.

00:41:50   So like basically you'd have one unified volume control

00:41:53   and if you push the button on the headphone,

00:41:55   it's not like doing that reduction in the headphone,

00:41:58   it's sending the command to the phone saying,

00:42:00   hey drop your volume by one increment or whatever.

00:42:02   So some headphones do that and some,

00:42:04   especially older ones, maintain their own volume control

00:42:07   in addition to the phone's volume control

00:42:09   which is, it allows more control,

00:42:11   but it's also kind of annoying.

00:42:12   Like if the phone is set really low

00:42:13   and you keep pushing up on the headphone,

00:42:15   it's like maxed out and you can't tell why it's too quiet.

00:42:18   So it's kind of annoying there.

00:42:19   But anyway, usually having one unified volume control

00:42:24   being, you know, the headphone controls

00:42:27   are actually telling the phone what to do,

00:42:28   that is generally better, which would have this problem.

00:42:31   (upbeat music)

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00:44:16   (upbeat music)

00:44:19   - So we should talk about what phones we have

00:44:23   and the process by which we retrieve them.

00:44:25   And since I got so angry at Jon last episode

00:44:29   about his preposterous claim that accessibility

00:44:31   is also his personal private stereo set if you will.

00:44:34   Not my claim.

00:44:35   Do you want to tell me again that I think the default should be different?

00:44:42   Because you seem to be stuck on that one for a while, too.

00:44:44   No, I'm just—I'm just poking.

00:44:47   So I think this is the time when Marco and I get angry at each other, but we need to

00:44:51   meander to that.

00:44:53   What did you end up getting, Marco?

00:44:56   And why were you on the news, exactly?

00:44:58   Okay.

00:44:59   So I was on my—we went to go.

00:45:03   We did an in-store pickup to get Tiff's phone.

00:45:05   As I mentioned last week, I had some order trouble

00:45:08   and then some waffling and then some order trouble

00:45:10   with the waffling order and so basically I was unable

00:45:13   to make an online order for what I ended up ordering

00:45:17   which was a jet black regular size seven.

00:45:19   Anyway, so we went to go pick up Tiff's on day one.

00:45:21   Mine wasn't gonna be ready on day one.

00:45:22   It was gonna be like mid-October or something.

00:45:24   And it just so happened that while we were waiting online,

00:45:27   a local news anchor wanted to do a segment

00:45:30   on the incredibly long lines at Apple stores.

00:45:32   Meanwhile, the line wasn't long at all,

00:45:33   but that's beside the point.

00:45:34   Obviously, it's the news.

00:45:35   They're gonna do whatever they want anyway,

00:45:37   regardless of the truth.

00:45:38   So, the news anchor just asked the people

00:45:40   who were right in front of her,

00:45:41   which happened to be me and this other guy,

00:45:42   she just asked us, "Hey, would we be willing

00:45:44   "to go on camera live for the local news

00:45:46   "and tell why we're waiting on line,

00:45:48   "what our favorite features of the new iPhone are,

00:45:51   "and whatever else?"

00:45:52   And we said, "Sure."

00:45:53   And there were no questions asked besides that.

00:45:55   She didn't ask what we were gonna say.

00:45:56   Well, she did, but then I lied.

00:45:58   I said I was talking about the camera

00:45:59   and how great it was.

00:46:01   'cause that's what she wanted.

00:46:02   - Look, however your story changes.

00:46:05   She didn't ask what we were gonna say,

00:46:06   well, she did ask what we were gonna say.

00:46:08   - Yes, she kind of did.

00:46:09   - She kind of prompted us with what she wanted us to say

00:46:12   in the journalist standard of implying,

00:46:14   here's what I wanna hear.

00:46:16   And she didn't ask who we were or anything.

00:46:18   She didn't know that I was an Apple person in some capacity.

00:46:21   She had no idea.

00:46:22   It didn't matter.

00:46:23   It didn't come up, so fine.

00:46:24   So yeah, turns the camera on,

00:46:26   and I give a more sarcastic answer

00:46:29   than I think everybody was expecting, and it was fun.

00:46:33   So we could pick up Tisphone, it was fun.

00:46:35   It's fine, we could get it back, whatever.

00:46:37   So I, in the meantime-- - Well, slow down, slow down.

00:46:38   So what did Tiff end up with, which model?

00:46:41   - Regular size gold.

00:46:43   Meanwhile, here I am, when I went into the store,

00:46:45   I was able to finally see and pick up

00:46:48   and feel both of the black models,

00:46:51   and I decided right then, oh my god,

00:46:53   I have to have the jet black,

00:46:54   because the way it feels, it is so,

00:46:59   If, like me, you have been out there

00:47:02   unhappy with the 6 and 6S because they are slippery

00:47:06   and they're hard to hold without a case,

00:47:08   you want the Jet Black iPhone 7.

00:47:10   Because it feels like,

00:47:13   the back of it feels even more grippy than the screen.

00:47:18   Like if you put your hand on glass

00:47:19   and you feel the glass screen, that is grippier.

00:47:22   Like your hand sticks to it better

00:47:24   than it does to the slippery aluminum back of the phone.

00:47:27   On the Jet Black, it's the opposite.

00:47:28   The jet black, the phone is even grippier than the screen.

00:47:30   It is so, it feels about as grippy

00:47:33   as the old plastic phones did, or the iPhone 5C,

00:47:37   the only kind of newish one.

00:47:39   Very, very grippy, very easy to hold.

00:47:42   The fact that it looks really cool from most angles

00:47:45   and in most conditions, that to me is secondary.

00:47:48   I don't care how the back of the phone looks really.

00:47:50   I mean, I've lived with an ugly backed phone

00:47:53   for the last two years.

00:47:54   I think the 6 and 6S design looked hideous from the back.

00:47:57   And for the 6S, I ended up using one of these

00:47:59   dbrand vinyl skins for the second half of my ownership of it

00:48:02   to cover up half the back just to give it a little more grip.

00:48:05   The jet black 7 is even grippier

00:48:08   than that dbrand vinyl skin was.

00:48:09   Like it's so nice and grippy.

00:48:11   So I immediately thought,

00:48:13   I don't care how quickly this thing scratches,

00:48:15   how bad it looks, I don't look at the back of my phone

00:48:17   when I'm using it, but I'm always feeling

00:48:19   the back of my phone when I'm using it.

00:48:21   So grip matters more to me than looks.

00:48:23   So of course I go home and try to get a jet black phone

00:48:25   and I'm going through eBay and everything

00:48:28   and it's just a disaster.

00:48:30   Trying to buy anything ever on eBay,

00:48:33   or sell it for that matter, is always a bit of a disaster.

00:48:36   eBay is just a horrible place full of horrible people

00:48:38   trying to scam each other,

00:48:40   with eBay being one of those people

00:48:41   trying to scam the sellers.

00:48:43   Anyway, it's wonderful.

00:48:45   So, it was a mess trying to get it on eBay.

00:48:49   I did try, I bid on a few, but they were,

00:48:52   the phone I wanted retailed for after tax

00:48:54   about $800 and they were going on eBay for like $1200 and up. So I was like, "I don't

00:48:59   really want to spend like $400 extra just for the privilege of getting it a little bit

00:49:03   sooner."

00:49:04   I started talking about it on Twitter and I was contacted by a guy named Chris Ries

00:49:09   Hansen. He's the author of DoveNote Software. So I should give him a plug. He really went

00:49:14   above and beyond here. DoveNote, like the bird, dovenote.com/pace is his main app. It's

00:49:21   an app called Pace that lets you take breaks on the Mac

00:49:24   while you're working, it's pretty cool.

00:49:25   Chris from Dove Notes Software contacted me on Twitter

00:49:28   and he said, "Hey, I have a JetBlack one that I just opened.

00:49:30   "I decided I didn't want that color,

00:49:32   "so I'm gonna return it,

00:49:33   "but if you wanna sell it to you at cost."

00:49:35   - Wow. - So this is pretty cool.

00:49:36   - That is super cool.

00:49:37   - If he would've just sold it on eBay,

00:49:39   he could've made 400 bucks, right?

00:49:41   But he didn't, he was a fan of the show,

00:49:42   he wanted, you know, help me out, awesome.

00:49:45   And the box comes, I'm signing forward with my UPS driver

00:49:50   and I'm like, this is really light.

00:49:52   This box seems like, is there really a phone in here?

00:49:55   Like did he like not, did he like just send

00:49:57   like the phone itself and not the packaging maybe?

00:49:59   Like not, like it feels really light.

00:50:02   And even the UPS driver's like, yeah,

00:50:03   there's no phone in here, it's way too light.

00:50:05   I'm like, okay.

00:50:07   So I go inside, open it up and kind of fish through it

00:50:13   and it's full of packing peanuts and only packing peanuts.

00:50:18   - Oh no.

00:50:19   the packing slip with the phone, the Apple packing slip,

00:50:22   and a little card from Chris saying,

00:50:24   "Hey, hope you enjoy it," he's a nice guy,

00:50:26   and the plastic wrap to an iPhone box,

00:50:30   which you can identify by the little green pull tab arrow

00:50:32   on one side. - Oh, no.

00:50:35   - You know, Chris, we had some common friends,

00:50:38   so I was pretty sure he wasn't the scammer here,

00:50:40   so I contacted him and I'm like,

00:50:42   "Hey, we have a problem here,"

00:50:45   and he was super great about it,

00:50:47   So it turns out he drops it off at the store.

00:50:51   He has a receipt at the store saying it weighed seven pounds

00:50:54   when it left the store.

00:50:55   - Oh goodness.

00:50:56   - And it arrives with me weighing nothing

00:50:58   and being filled with packing peanuts.

00:50:59   - Seven pounds you say?

00:51:02   - Yeah.

00:51:02   - Go on, go on, just keep going.

00:51:04   Just plow bravely ahead.

00:51:06   - All right.

00:51:07   (laughing)

00:51:08   So he immediately refunds my money.

00:51:10   And if you're the buyer in this situation,

00:51:12   if you use PayPal and you pay the goods rate,

00:51:15   not like the sending people cash rate

00:51:17   which eliminates the fee,

00:51:18   look, there's a reason you pay those fees.

00:51:19   Those fees cover you as the buyer.

00:51:21   And when you're buying things,

00:51:22   you should always do that option of the goods rate

00:51:25   where there is a fee,

00:51:27   even if the seller makes you pay the fee,

00:51:28   which is actually, I think,

00:51:29   against PayPal's terms of service to ask you to do that.

00:51:31   But regardless, even if the seller makes you pay the fee,

00:51:34   you need to do it that way

00:51:35   because that protects you in situations like this.

00:51:37   So anyway, I didn't have to file a claim

00:51:40   'cause he's a nice guy

00:51:41   and he immediately refunded the money.

00:51:43   He's like, "I'll deal with it," 'cause it was insured.

00:51:45   So he goes and deals with UPS

00:51:46   and it's still in process, but he's working with them.

00:51:50   I feel so bad for this guy,

00:51:51   because here he was doing me this favor.

00:51:54   - Yeah, he's trying to do you a solid.

00:51:55   - Yeah, so now we've learned,

00:51:57   don't send an iPhone right during iPhone mania time,

00:52:01   and it's obviously an iPhone box,

00:52:04   because people who work for UPS

00:52:07   have seen a billion of these boxes over the last few days,

00:52:10   and he sent it in the same box.

00:52:11   That's the perfect opportunity if you're like,

00:52:14   Anyway, so it was stolen.

00:52:17   Now Chris is like stuck dealing with all this insurance

00:52:20   crap with UPS and I feel really bad for him.

00:52:21   So please look at his app, PACE, by DevNote Software.

00:52:24   Making me feel a little bit better.

00:52:26   - Oh, that sucks so much.

00:52:28   - So then I was like, you know what, screw this.

00:52:30   I am not gonna try to buy another phone on the internet.

00:52:34   Like, I'll just get it through Apple.

00:52:37   However long it takes, I don't care.

00:52:40   I'll just, and this, I have bought so many things

00:52:44   online, eBay, Amazon, everywhere else, individual sellers, people on forums. I've bought and

00:52:49   sold so many things online. This is the first time I've ever had something stolen. So I

00:52:55   emailed my business rep at the, or the Apple retail business rep at my two local stores

00:53:03   on Monday morning just basically saying, you know, right after this whole whole happened,

00:53:06   basically saying like, "Hey, if there's any kind of waiting list you can put me on

00:53:10   on anything, please, you know, I could really use one.

00:53:13   One of the stores said, sorry, we can't really do it,

00:53:16   we don't know what we're gonna have.

00:53:17   The other store said, yeah, I got two right here,

00:53:19   you wanna come pick it up right now, you need both?

00:53:21   (laughing)

00:53:24   So I, Monday, I went on Monday around lunch

00:53:29   and picked up my brand new jet black iPhone 7,

00:53:33   128 gig T-Mobile unlocked.

00:53:35   I finally have it through a regular means

00:53:38   And hopefully everybody buys Pace by DevNote Software

00:53:41   so that Chris is less put out by this whole ordeal.

00:53:43   And everything is fine now.

00:53:46   - And you like it?

00:53:47   - I think I love it.

00:53:49   So here's the thing.

00:53:50   As I said, the Jet Black finish is amazing.

00:53:54   Like if you have any chance to,

00:53:57   if you don't have one of these yet,

00:53:58   if you have any chance to go handle one in a store,

00:54:01   I strongly suggest you do it.

00:54:02   If you're on the fence about whether you want Jet Black,

00:54:05   really, really go try them.

00:54:06   If you really value the grip of your phone,

00:54:09   I'd say just order it blind.

00:54:10   Just get it because it really does make a big difference.

00:54:14   Mine is, of course, already has some minor

00:54:17   micro abrasions on it, but I don't care.

00:54:20   You can only see them in certain lighting.

00:54:21   It's very much like, I would compare it to

00:54:26   clear coat scratches on a black car,

00:54:28   where the black layer itself does not appear to be scratched

00:54:32   but if you move it around in the light

00:54:34   and catch the glare of the light,

00:54:36   you will see a little fine scratches here and there,

00:54:38   mostly around the edges.

00:54:39   And it's fine, I don't care.

00:54:41   It's amazing.

00:54:42   And if this ends up looking like the Millennium Falcon,

00:54:46   cool.

00:54:47   If it ends up just looking like a scratched up

00:54:48   old classic iPod with the steel back,

00:54:50   I don't really care about that either.

00:54:52   As long as it continues to feel anything like it feels,

00:54:54   I couldn't care less how much the back scratched

00:54:56   because it feels so incredibly good.

00:54:59   And if I didn't have it feel that good,

00:55:01   if it was as slippery as the other ones,

00:55:03   I would put some ugly case or vinyl decal over it anyway.

00:55:08   So either way, I'm not seeing the perfectly clear

00:55:10   back of the phone.

00:55:11   I would also point out on the fingerprint issue

00:55:14   that the ones I saw in the store for the matte black model,

00:55:18   it seems that the matte black one is actually pretty bad

00:55:21   about fingerprints too.

00:55:22   The difference is they're harder to wipe off.

00:55:25   The Jet Black has, I've heard from a couple people

00:55:28   who have Apple PR connections that apparently

00:55:29   the Jet Black does have the oleophobic coating

00:55:32   on the whole backside of it.

00:55:34   So it does wipe off easily, just like the screen basically,

00:55:38   if you rub it on your jeans or whatever.

00:55:40   So getting fingerprints off of it is fine

00:55:42   if you actually care.

00:55:42   Honestly, I don't care because I don't look at the back.

00:55:44   But if you're concerned about fingerprints,

00:55:46   the matte black, I would say, is really no better

00:55:50   because the fingerprints show up just as much on it

00:55:53   and they don't come off as easily.

00:55:54   They kind of just dull or smear if you try to wipe them off.

00:55:57   So anyway, that's my thoughts on the case

00:56:01   and the color so far.

00:56:02   The home button I am kind of mixed on.

00:56:05   I don't hate it as much as I thought I would.

00:56:08   I don't love it.

00:56:09   Some people love it, that's fine.

00:56:11   I started out on the setting number one, the weakest.

00:56:13   I have now since moved to setting number three

00:56:16   based on Mike Hurley's urging on upgrade

00:56:19   that that is the one true setting.

00:56:21   That seems okay so far.

00:56:22   It's a little loud for me, honestly, but oh well.

00:56:25   And yeah, that's about it.

00:56:26   So far so good.

00:56:27   I haven't used the headphone jack yet

00:56:29   because I hardly ever use wired headphones.

00:56:30   And that's it.

00:56:32   - I have so many thoughts.

00:56:34   (laughing)

00:56:35   - Before you have your thoughts,

00:56:36   can I ask Marco a quick question?

00:56:37   - Yeah, of course. - About the Jet Black

00:56:38   as a potential purchaser?

00:56:40   Couple people asked you this,

00:56:41   but I didn't see your answer.

00:56:43   What about wetness combined with the surface?

00:56:46   It's very tacky because it's very smooth,

00:56:48   but if your hand is slightly wet,

00:56:49   does it suddenly become a slippery little pill?

00:56:53   - If your hand is just slightly sweaty,

00:56:55   it'll actually be really grippy.

00:56:56   It'll be better that way.

00:56:58   If your hand is soaked,

00:57:00   then I think picking up any phone is gonna be a problem.

00:57:02   - Well, this one is waterproof, that's why I asked,

00:57:04   'cause it's waterproof, you could use it in the rain,

00:57:06   like in the Apple ads, or you could drop it in the water.

00:57:09   I don't know, it just seems like it's a confluence

00:57:12   of events here, this is the first phone

00:57:13   where you can actually get wet without terror

00:57:16   that you're gonna destroy your phone,

00:57:17   and it also seems like the one

00:57:19   that might be the slipperiest with water.

00:57:20   What I'm asking for you to do is get your phone wet,

00:57:22   Travis. - No, it's not gonna happen.

00:57:23   If your hands are frequently dripping wet,

00:57:26   you just submerged your hands in water,

00:57:28   and then you have to handle your phone.

00:57:30   or the blood of your enemies, you know, whatever.

00:57:31   - Sure, then maybe choose a different one.

00:57:34   But for everyday regular use in most conditions,

00:57:38   the grip of this is incredible.

00:57:40   - I'm gonna have to bring a wet sponge to the Apple Store,

00:57:43   aren't I, 'cause you're not gonna do this, that's for me.

00:57:44   (laughing)

00:57:45   - Honestly, I think it would have to be really wet

00:57:48   to make that, to really tell.

00:57:50   - You've seen all the videos,

00:57:51   people are dropping these things in the water,

00:57:52   taking pictures underwater with them,

00:57:54   like it's gonna get, you know, it potentially can get wet.

00:57:57   I just, you know, 'cause that's the thing,

00:57:58   Like if the grip is entirely based on, you know,

00:58:02   it being super smooth and grippy like that,

00:58:03   if it suddenly becomes very slippery,

00:58:05   that's something I wanna know about.

00:58:06   Not that I plan on using it in the rain,

00:58:08   but it's conceivable that I just wash my hands

00:58:11   and I'm in a hurry and walk into the other room

00:58:12   and grab the thing, and if it squirts out of my hand,

00:58:14   I'm gonna be sad because it may be waterproof,

00:58:16   but it's still not quite drop-proof.

00:58:18   - I think the estimation by, I think it was Jason Snell,

00:58:23   or no, it was Gruber who said this on this week's talk show.

00:58:26   Basically, if you're a person with extremely dry hands

00:58:31   all the time, then maybe you might wanna go feel one

00:58:34   in the store to see if it's gonna be a problem for you.

00:58:36   I don't have that problem.

00:58:37   My hands are always warm and not sweaty,

00:58:41   but slightly moistened, I guess.

00:58:44   I don't know.

00:58:44   Sorry if we're grossing everybody out.

00:58:46   So for me, it's perfect,

00:58:47   because it is really incredibly grippy

00:58:50   if your hands have any normal level of moisture, really.

00:58:54   I think it's only if your hands are extremely dry,

00:58:56   like in the middle of winter,

00:58:57   and you have to cover them in lotion

00:58:59   in order for them not to fall apart,

00:59:01   maybe before you've lotioned for the day,

00:59:02   it might be a bit dry,

00:59:04   or if your hands are literally in water,

00:59:07   then it might be a little more slippery.

00:59:09   But I don't think those are common occurrences

00:59:12   for most people who are gonna be buying it.

00:59:13   - It rubs the lotion on its iPhone.

00:59:16   - Oh, or else it gets the hose again.

00:59:18   - Hey, you got a reference.

00:59:20   Look at you.

00:59:21   - That got aggressive.

00:59:24   Anyway, I put it in link in the show to the seven pounds just to save you guys. Okay. I've never heard the flophouse

00:59:29   I know I know, you know, I heard that you can just jump right in anytime and you'll be fine

00:59:33   I went to the office store today and this was my first time seeing or handling a jet black iPhone. I

00:59:40   Went to buy a

00:59:44   extra headphone adapter too because I know myself enough to know that it's just wise to

00:59:49   sprinkle these little things all over the place rather than rely on myself to

00:59:54   Remember to take it with me when I might need it

00:59:56   So for example Aaron's car we play our iPhones by way of a cassette adapter

01:00:01   Because her car was built like one of the last years that cassettes were sort of a thing

01:00:05   So I'm going to just leave one of these little adapters in her car and the advantage of it being only nine dollars is that?

01:00:11   You know nine dollars is not free, but it is not an exorbitant amount of money

01:00:15   So I just grabbed a couple while I was there. I looked at the jet black iPhone

01:00:19   I picked it up. The first thing I noticed was holy God

01:00:21   I need to dip my hands in Clorox because I've just touched a thousand fingerprints and

01:00:25   That I did not really like I am holding my matte black iPhone in my hand and admittedly at a couple of angles

01:00:34   You can see some fingerprints on it

01:00:36   But generally speaking the only thing I see is all the fingerprints on the Apple logo

01:00:40   Which looks to me to be more of a jet black ask

01:00:43   material slash color I

01:00:47   I did not notice when I was holding the jet black phone,

01:00:50   which I held for a grand total of maybe 15 seconds.

01:00:53   - And probably very gingerly.

01:00:55   - Yeah, I did not notice that it was tackier.

01:00:59   But I can't tell if that means that in my estimation,

01:01:04   Marco was wrong and that it's not tackier

01:01:07   or the fact that it wasn't slippery made nothing registered.

01:01:12   Does that make you know what I mean?

01:01:14   So like, I didn't think to myself,

01:01:15   oh, this is super slippery.

01:01:16   So maybe that means it was tackier.

01:01:18   Now I deeply regret not having thought to like,

01:01:21   examine the two of them side by side.

01:01:23   I was kind of in a rush and I had Declan with me.

01:01:26   And so I didn't want to just stand there for an hour

01:01:29   playing with these things while he's looking at me like,

01:01:31   "Dad, are you serious right now?"

01:01:32   But I'd like to go back and try it again.

01:01:36   But I do not see a lot of fingerprints on my Jet Black 1.

01:01:39   And having seen, excuse me, on my Map Black 1,

01:01:42   And having seen the Jet Black 1 in the store, to my eyes, I actually think the matte black

01:01:48   looks better.

01:01:49   Hand on heart, I really do.

01:01:50   And I was scared to look at the Jet Black 1 because I expected to think to myself, "Oh,

01:01:54   God, I've made a terrible mistake."

01:01:57   But I really think the matte black looks better.

01:01:59   And it's what it occurred to me just a day or so ago.

01:02:02   I think what this is, is my unbelievable unbridled love for the black book, the black polycarbonate

01:02:10   MacBook from years ago.

01:02:11   I wanted one of those so hard and it was like 70 or 150 bucks more than the equivalent white

01:02:17   one.

01:02:18   And so I didn't do it when I bought my initial Mac.

01:02:20   And I missed having the black MacBook.

01:02:25   I thought it looked so good.

01:02:26   And this to me is the black book of iPhones.

01:02:30   And I just love the look of it.

01:02:31   And that doesn't make Marco wrong.

01:02:33   But I love the look of this matte black one, which I know Jon is not helping you because

01:02:37   I know Marco was really effusive about his jet flag.

01:02:39   I'm really effusive about this one.

01:02:41   I think this one looks so much better

01:02:43   than the jet black to my eyes.

01:02:45   I definitely feel for me, I made the right choice.

01:02:48   - Well, and I think we largely agree

01:02:51   on the relative benefits of them.

01:02:54   The question is just priorities, really.

01:02:56   It's like, what gives you more joy,

01:02:59   or what is more functional to you

01:03:01   when you're choosing your phone's color and finish, basically?

01:03:05   Normally, we don't even have these kind of choices

01:03:07   that make any difference at all.

01:03:08   This time, we actually do have a choice.

01:03:10   So basically the question is like,

01:03:12   would you want one that looks kind of fingerprinty

01:03:15   a lot of the time and is gonna be scratched up pretty fast

01:03:18   but feels this particular way?

01:03:20   Or would you want one that, you know,

01:03:23   like the one you have, the matte black one,

01:03:24   that looks more consistent over time?

01:03:28   And generally, you know, a lot of people

01:03:30   really do find it very attractive.

01:03:31   I find, honestly, I find the black one

01:03:33   a little bit boring and a little bit dated looking

01:03:35   because like for years, so much nerd stuff

01:03:37   had just been available in black

01:03:39   And I know not necessarily iPhones,

01:03:41   but it's personal preference, I guess.

01:03:46   I find it kind of boring looking to be just flat black.

01:03:50   And honestly, the jet black one,

01:03:53   it just so happens that I like the way it looks,

01:03:55   but I really don't care how it looks

01:03:57   because it feels so good.

01:03:59   That's why I'm willing to ignore the scratches.

01:04:00   So basically it comes down to, John,

01:04:03   first of all, with your type of hand,

01:04:05   do you find it a lot grippier?

01:04:07   Do you care?

01:04:09   And then if the answer to those things are yes,

01:04:11   then basically, which do you prefer?

01:04:13   Having a phone that you love the way it looks

01:04:16   or having a phone that feels this particular way?

01:04:18   - Well, the other thing that's in the mix for me is cases

01:04:20   because I always had cases on my iPod Touches

01:04:24   and I have a case on my first iPhone.

01:04:27   And the Jet Black, because my first iPhone was a six,

01:04:29   which as we all know is way too slippery.

01:04:31   With the Jet Black, the question for me is,

01:04:35   can I go caseless?

01:04:36   Can I, if this is grippy enough,

01:04:38   can I go caseless with it?

01:04:39   And for me, the equation is, all right,

01:04:41   so if I decide that it's grippy enough to go caseless,

01:04:44   can I tolerate then the disaster

01:04:47   that will be in the back of that phone from the scratches?

01:04:49   And I have to sort of get to Marco's place

01:04:50   where it's like, look, just who cares how it looks?

01:04:52   Or I gotta believe it's gonna look good

01:04:54   when it's all scratched up.

01:04:55   So far, all the pictures that I've seen on Twitter

01:04:57   of scratched up ones do not look good to me.

01:04:59   And I would just have to sort of resign myself to say,

01:05:01   well, you know, just don't worry about it.

01:05:02   Like in exchange, you're getting a smaller, lighter phone

01:05:05   because you don't have a case on it or whatever.

01:05:08   But on the other side of this is,

01:05:09   if I go to the store and it's like a toss up

01:05:12   or I can't quite decide or whatever,

01:05:15   but I decide that like the jet black is grippy as it may be,

01:05:18   is not as grippy as like my leather case or whatever,

01:05:20   I just decided like the leather one for whatever,

01:05:23   I may I'm getting a jet black one

01:05:25   just so I can ensconce it in leather and preserve it

01:05:28   so it actually is perfect

01:05:29   because it's never actually seen the light of day

01:05:31   because from the day,

01:05:31   the second I took it out of the box, I put a case on it.

01:05:34   And so that it will be perfect under there

01:05:36   and I could see the perfectness peeking out on the bottom

01:05:38   or the speakers are and just know in my heart of hearts

01:05:40   that there is an unblemished perfect jet plaque

01:05:43   back on this thing.

01:05:44   So that's a factor.

01:05:45   And then the final factor is,

01:05:45   first of all, it won't by the way.

01:05:47   Yeah, I really like matte black.

01:05:48   Yeah, that's the question.

01:05:49   You get a little piece of grit in there,

01:05:50   but I'll try really hard.

01:05:52   (laughing)

01:05:53   The matte black I really like,

01:05:54   as I was thinking the same thing,

01:05:56   like the main function of this matte black

01:05:57   is just to make us all wish

01:05:58   that Apple had had this technology

01:05:59   because the black book did not stay pristine

01:06:01   because it was made of plastic

01:06:02   and it wasn't, you know, didn't hold up

01:06:04   and showed fingerprints like crazy.

01:06:07   - I mean, you're saying the matte black one does too,

01:06:08   but I see the pictures of the matte black,

01:06:10   and it's a look that I like.

01:06:11   If jet black didn't exist, I'd be like,

01:06:12   "Boy, that matte black, isn't that great, guys?

01:06:14   "No more space gray, like matte black."

01:06:16   I like the matte black.

01:06:18   - No, no, I'm talking about the black book,

01:06:20   the black plastic matte,

01:06:21   'cause that showed fingerprints like crazy.

01:06:23   - But you're saying the matte black phone

01:06:24   in the store also showed fingerprints.

01:06:26   - Not as much as the jet black, obviously,

01:06:27   but I'm saying it shows way more fingerprints

01:06:30   than the old space gray ones.

01:06:31   - Yeah, so, I mean, but mine have always been a case.

01:06:34   So anyway, I've got some research to do

01:06:36   and I gotta go to the store.

01:06:37   The other thing I was thinking about,

01:06:38   two things on this topic.

01:06:39   One, the jet black finish with it being grippier

01:06:42   and everything, they can make that in colors.

01:06:45   They could, you know, you can imagine

01:06:47   if they keep this finish, right?

01:06:49   If this becomes sort of like a signature finish of iPhones,

01:06:51   maybe the super duper cool glass one,

01:06:54   the back of all of them are that super glossy,

01:06:56   highly polished aluminum.

01:06:58   It just so happens they don't all come in black.

01:07:00   Can you imagine, you know, life savers colors

01:07:03   like the old iMacs, but with this super glossy thing.

01:07:05   And by the way, this is a neat thing

01:07:06   that we left out of the show last time.

01:07:08   Someone had noticed that the, what is it,

01:07:09   like the wallpapers they give you

01:07:11   with this weird blob of gel exactly matches the color

01:07:14   of some of the Lifesaver iMacs plus the original one,

01:07:17   which I thought was neat.

01:07:18   But I can imagine this finish,

01:07:21   if it ends up being successful,

01:07:22   being a signature of the iPhone going forward.

01:07:24   But as I said to Marco on Twitter today

01:07:26   when he was talking about what are the things

01:07:27   that we're gonna look back on about the iPhone 7

01:07:30   and think those didn't quite work out

01:07:32   those complaints were legit and he was saying the home button and a few other things. My

01:07:35   suggestion was that probably the finish on the back of the iPhone 7 will not be an ongoing

01:07:42   thing. Not the aesthetic look, but I feel like if they're going to make another version

01:07:46   of that finish, if they decide to do that, they'll work a little bit harder on the scratch

01:07:49   thing, right? Like that I feel like this is not where they wanted it to get. They love

01:07:52   how it looks, they had to put in a little warning about scratching. If they have the

01:07:55   technology to say, like the 6s being slightly less slippery than the 6, they could say,

01:08:00   "Oh, it's got the same awesome finish that you love from the 7, but now it is more scratch resistant."

01:08:04   Not perfect, you know, it's not going to be like the stainless steel DLC thing because that apparently is not a process that you can do aluminum

01:08:09   and they're not going to make it out of steel because the foam will weigh a ton.

01:08:12   But I can imagine this shiny glossy finish being a thing because it looks cool, right?

01:08:19   And if you could make it less scratchy, that would be cool.

01:08:22   And if you could do it in different colors, that would also be cool.

01:08:25   I see potentially a future in that or this would just be like a one-off thing where this was the glossy black one and they

01:08:30   Go on to whatever they've already had in mind for the age

01:08:32   But anyway, I'm not any closer to decision gotta see these things in person

01:08:35   And hopefully by the time I get all the weird bugs with like the headphone connectors and everything will all be worked out

01:08:40   So thanks for dealing with that guys. They'll also have the the option for reduced motion and messages

01:08:46   All right, so just a couple of minor follow-ups to what you just said first of all

01:08:54   Your potential option of buy the jet black anyway

01:08:58   and just put it in a case and keep it pristine forever,

01:09:00   it won't actually work.

01:09:01   'Cause first of all, as you mentioned,

01:09:02   yeah, a little piece of grit might get back there

01:09:04   or whatever and scratch it.

01:09:05   - I'm really careful.

01:09:07   - Yeah, so am I.

01:09:08   And I've had this phone for two days

01:09:09   and it's already scratches on it.

01:09:11   - It wasn't in a case, it was never in a case.

01:09:13   - And some of them are along the bottom edge

01:09:15   where the speakers turn into the back.

01:09:17   - I know, I said the speaker,

01:09:18   that I said the speaker grill would be poking out,

01:09:20   I understood that would be exposed.

01:09:22   - So yeah, I mean, it's just like,

01:09:23   just handling this, having it in a pocket with lint in it.

01:09:26   I mean, this thing, like, I am very careful with my stuff.

01:09:30   Most of my electronics that I own and use,

01:09:33   after I'm done using them, look brand new.

01:09:35   They look totally unused,

01:09:37   they have no wear on them whatsoever.

01:09:39   This phone I've had for two days

01:09:40   and it already has scratched.

01:09:41   So I will say, if you are the kind of person who thinks,

01:09:44   you know what, I can get a Jet Black

01:09:45   and just be really careful with it,

01:09:46   no, that's not going to happen.

01:09:48   So you have, really, you have to be okay with it scratching

01:09:51   if you're going to get it.

01:09:53   And if, like me, if you are so enamored by the feel of it

01:09:58   that you don't care, then it might be right for you.

01:10:02   And I also would say, I do think that you are probably right

01:10:05   this is probably gonna be a one-off.

01:10:07   I don't expect this color to return in future years

01:10:10   simply because I think it is probably very expensive

01:10:14   and more complex for them to do.

01:10:16   And also I think the way it ages

01:10:20   is not going to be received well.

01:10:21   I think people are gonna look back on it

01:10:22   kind of like the scratchy iPod Nanos

01:10:24   and old classic iPod with the steel backs as like--

01:10:27   - It won't be that bad

01:10:28   'cause the scratchy iPod Nano was on the front.

01:10:29   - That's true.

01:10:30   - So that was a problem.

01:10:31   But like, even if they can improve it,

01:10:34   'cause that's the wild card, like I said,

01:10:35   like I really don't feel like they're gonna do

01:10:37   this exact back again,

01:10:38   but this aesthetic I think has legs, right?

01:10:40   And so if they can improve the process somehow,

01:10:43   like come up with some super hard clear coat

01:10:45   that resists scratching and doesn't look like a disaster.

01:10:48   - Like ceramic.

01:10:49   - I think aesthetically, it would be really nice.

01:10:52   I mean, obviously it's probably also expensive

01:10:54   and you know, so and so.

01:10:54   But can you imagine, like, if they had like,

01:10:56   bright candy colors under that kind of gloss,

01:10:59   that's a good looking phone.

01:11:00   - Yeah, I mean, I would even say like, a white one.

01:11:02   - What?

01:11:03   Let's not go crazy.

01:11:04   White on the back and black on the front.

01:11:06   There we go.

01:11:07   - Yeah. - Exactly.

01:11:08   - Business in front, party in the back.

01:11:09   - Oh my gosh.

01:11:10   - If they had, if they had like a white glossy finish,

01:11:13   I don't know much about,

01:11:14   I don't know anything about this process.

01:11:16   I don't know whether it's possible to do it

01:11:17   in different colors or whether this can only be done

01:11:20   in black because of some component that's used in it.

01:11:22   But if it could be done,

01:11:23   if the same finish could be done in white,

01:11:26   I bet the scratches would be very hard to see.

01:11:29   - So you heard it here first, kids.

01:11:30   John Sirkusa would like a mullet foam.

01:11:33   - Would like, I was just identifying

01:11:35   as the thing that could be made.

01:11:36   - I'm just messing around.

01:11:38   The home button, #mikewaswrong.

01:11:41   The correct setting is the middle setting.

01:11:44   Additionally, I hated, hated this home button

01:11:49   for six hours and now I freaking love it.

01:11:52   I don't know why I love it,

01:11:56   to be completely honest with you,

01:11:58   but it just feels so much more crisp

01:12:01   than the home button on my iPad or even my 6S,

01:12:05   which I still have for at least a little while.

01:12:07   I grab the iPad or if I just pick up the 6S

01:12:11   for whatever reason,

01:12:12   those feel just positively mushy by comparison.

01:12:17   I don't care for it all at all. I feel like

01:12:20   like double

01:12:23   Clicking for lack of a better word the home button to bring up multitasking. I feel like I can do it quicker and it's

01:12:29   more reliable on

01:12:31   the new phone I have

01:12:33   Guided access enabled so if I

01:12:37   Really need a break for a minute if Declan's in the car or something like that because he hates the car

01:12:44   And I want to give him like Plex to look at and look at Daniel Tiger or Sesame Street or what have you I've got

01:12:49   It access ready and waiting to be enabled so he doesn't you know and navigate away from the app

01:12:55   I want him to use so a triple tap oftentimes or a triple click. I would oftentimes fire that accidentally

01:13:01   No, maybe not often, but definitely regularly fire a triple

01:13:06   Click by accident with physical home buttons. I've yet to do that on this one

01:13:11   And you know what as stupid as it sounds and I'll be the first to say it's stupid

01:13:14   I just kind of like being on the home screen and mashing away at this home button and feeling the taptic engine

01:13:19   I really think it feels better and crisper. You got an $850 fidget cube. I do it's great

01:13:26   I love this thing

01:13:28   Click in your pen caps and uh, yep your home button. Yep. That's right. No, I really do love this thing

01:13:33   I think one is too gentle. I think three is just overbearing. I think two is just right

01:13:39   It was weird at first because it is very

01:13:42   clearly not the same feel as

01:13:46   A physical button as many people have said particularly those who had review units

01:13:51   It's not the same as the trackpad which despite what Marco believes does feel like an actual click it is

01:13:56   You cannot discern the difference unless your mark. Oh, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait

01:14:01   I never said the fourth trackpad doesn't feel like a click

01:14:04   I said it feels like a bad button and the old one was a good button and you can totally tell and you can totally

01:14:08   totally tell the difference. Don't tell me you can't tell.

01:14:10   Yeah, it's a pretty apparent difference.

01:14:12   The force touch might be good enough

01:14:14   for lots of people, but that doesn't mean

01:14:16   it's not worse. It's definitely much

01:14:18   more convincing than the reports say, because

01:14:20   like you said last time, if you didn't tell

01:14:22   someone, especially someone who's not Marco,

01:14:24   this wasn't a button, they wouldn't figure it

01:14:26   out, but once you tell them, they're like, "Oh yeah, I can see that."

01:14:28   And like I said, the trackpad

01:14:30   does move. I wonder if the home button moves.

01:14:32   Has anyone gone in macro on that and seen does the home button

01:14:34   move? Because the trackpad moves just because it's a big thing

01:14:36   and it flexes, but I wonder if the home button moves at all.

01:14:38   - I don't think it does.

01:14:40   - And I will say too, I actually find

01:14:42   the Force Touch home button on the 7 less crappy

01:14:46   than the Force Touch track pads.

01:14:48   I actually, I think, given, give me another couple days,

01:14:52   I'll probably even like this.

01:14:54   However, I've been using a Force Touch Magic Track Pad

01:14:56   for a while now and I still don't like its click.

01:14:59   The Force Touch on the track pads, I think, stays mediocre.

01:15:02   But the one on the phone, I think,

01:15:04   you can use it pretty fast.

01:15:05   I just I really don't mind and in fact like the track there but be that as it may

01:15:09   Really like the home button setting number two is the right setting the best way to describe it

01:15:14   Which I'm stealing from either panzerino or snell or somebody is that it feels like the whole bottom of the phone not that it's

01:15:21   being depressed but it's the whole bottom of the phone that's reacting and that's very unnatural as

01:15:28   Compared to a physical button and that's why I think I hated it so much at first

01:15:32   Because it's as though the whole bottom of the phone

01:15:35   is

01:15:36   Not really depressing but like I said a second ago reacting

01:15:39   But I've come to really like it and it's it almost feels more obvious even at setting to that

01:15:47   Yes, I have engaged the home button

01:15:49   So I freaking love this thing the one downside that I found which I almost never run into but it is

01:15:56   striking the difference is if you have the phone sitting on say a table or something like that and then press the home button is

01:16:04   it feels very, very weird.

01:16:08   Either you don't feel it at all, or...

01:16:10   This is particularly on like a hard surface.

01:16:13   So like, I have a glass desk, so putting it on my mouse pad,

01:16:17   which I have to use like an animal,

01:16:18   that feels about the same, but on the glass,

01:16:21   you can barely feel the darn thing moving at all.

01:16:23   - Ooh, that sucks. - Which is super, super weird.

01:16:26   And I don't care for that at all,

01:16:28   but it's so rare that I have the thing sitting

01:16:30   on a flat surface like that and pressing the home button

01:16:33   that that doesn't really bother me.

01:16:35   But that is something worth noting.

01:16:37   And as a friend of the show, Mike Hurley, had also noted, the ring that kind of enables

01:16:43   Touch ID is the same thing that enables listening, for lack of a better word, that you're pressing

01:16:48   the home button.

01:16:49   So if you don't have the right kind of capacitive gloves, or if you like put your shirt between

01:16:54   your thumb and the home button, you can no longer tap or press the home button, which

01:16:59   to me isn't a problem at all, but it is very peculiar,

01:17:02   and it makes you realize that this is all just

01:17:04   software and hardware trickery.

01:17:06   - Yeah, I actually hit this, like, in the,

01:17:08   like I have next to my bed, I have an iPhone dock,

01:17:11   and I've gotten in the habit of, like,

01:17:12   when I wake up in the morning to check the time,

01:17:14   I will just, like, kinda push my pinky

01:17:16   into the home button to just make sure

01:17:17   it doesn't unlock the whole phone and everything,

01:17:18   I just wanna see the clock on the phone.

01:17:20   And so, now I kinda can't, it doesn't work very well anymore

01:17:24   because I've gotten in the habit of only pushing

01:17:26   this little tiny bit of the home button with my pinky,

01:17:28   and you kinda have to activate that touch ID ring

01:17:31   to make it work at all now.

01:17:33   - If you had a mechanical clock back next to your bed,

01:17:35   as soon as you looked over it would tell you the time.

01:17:37   - No, but it wouldn't be lit up.

01:17:39   Whereas the Apple Watch,

01:17:40   when it's close to the time you're supposed to wake up,

01:17:42   automatically lights up for you.

01:17:43   It's the future.

01:17:44   - Radiation can solve that problem.

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01:20:01   (upbeat music)

01:20:03   - Speakers, the speakers on the new phones

01:20:07   are indeed louder.

01:20:09   They are in stereo, which I haven't watched very much

01:20:12   on my new phone in terms of like video or what have you,

01:20:15   but I have had it playing some podcasts from time to time.

01:20:19   And oh man, these speakers are so much louder

01:20:21   and I love it.

01:20:23   Have you used yours much, Marco?

01:20:25   - Not a ton, but I have used them

01:20:28   and tested them here and there,

01:20:28   and yeah, it's better.

01:20:29   I wouldn't say it's twice as loud perceptually,

01:20:36   and maybe in certain conditions it might be,

01:20:38   that their claim of it being twice as loud

01:20:41   might have been a decibel level measurement,

01:20:43   where it can be funky.

01:20:46   But anyway, it is definitely noticeably louder

01:20:49   and of better quality, and that's what's important.

01:20:51   I'm pleasantly surprised that I thought,

01:20:55   because the speaker, there isn't one

01:20:57   that fires out the top edge,

01:20:59   it's just the earpiece that speaks during phone calls.

01:21:03   That thing is now just loud enough to be a speaker.

01:21:06   And so you have that one firing straight ahead,

01:21:10   and then you have the one on the bottom

01:21:11   where it's always been firing kind of down,

01:21:13   like away from the phone.

01:21:15   So these are firing at two different angles.

01:21:18   And so I thought it would sound weird,

01:21:20   But it doesn't really.

01:21:21   It just sounds like the whole phone is making

01:21:25   one loud sound output, which is exactly what you want.

01:21:29   So I'm actually very pleasantly surprised by it.

01:21:31   I expected it to be useful from a utility point of view

01:21:35   of just getting more sound out of the phone,

01:21:38   but it actually is better quality than I expected.

01:21:42   - Yeah, completely agree.

01:21:43   Two thumbs up.

01:21:44   The AirPods, obviously none of us have them yet.

01:21:48   When they were first announced, I thought, "Eh, that's clever. Looks cool, but eh."

01:21:54   But a few different things have happened over the last few days that have made me think,

01:21:59   "You know, I think I do want those," very much in the watch style.

01:22:03   First of all, I've been using the Lightning Earbuds from time to time,

01:22:08   and I really think that having the cables come off of them really does pull on them enough to

01:22:17   try to pull them out of my ears. And I really think not having the weight of the cables

01:22:21   would make a huge difference. Additionally, there's been a handful of times that I've,

01:22:26   or even perhaps most of the time, I've only had one of the earbuds in because I want to

01:22:31   be able to hear Declan or, you know, maybe I'm, uh, he's asleep and Aaron's out and I

01:22:36   just need to make sure that I can hear the monitor or what have you. For whatever reason,

01:22:40   I've only had one in and not having the the phone or perhaps it's the earbuds whatever

01:22:47   Force mono when only one of them is in I can't say I've noticed it but I can just think to myself man

01:22:54   It would be nice if I knew that everything that I could hear I was hearing through just one of the air pods

01:22:59   and additionally

01:23:00   there's been a handful of times when I'll like go with go for a walk with Declan where

01:23:03   It would be kind of nice to be able to just not have wires or maybe even leave my phone at home

01:23:09   and just use my watch and have these things

01:23:12   just magically transfer from the phone to the watch

01:23:15   would be really nice.

01:23:16   So at first I thought, yeah, I don't want any interest,

01:23:19   I don't really have any interest in the AirPods,

01:23:21   but within just a few days I've convinced myself

01:23:23   that's going on the Christmas and Hanukkah list this year.

01:23:26   - Even if the sound quality ends up being

01:23:29   not meaningfully better than the regular AirPods,

01:23:33   the wired ones, which means not very good,

01:23:35   I think a lot of people are going to buy

01:23:37   and use these things and like them

01:23:39   just for the utility factor.

01:23:41   I mean, that's the thing with Bluetooth audio.

01:23:42   Like, in many ways, as we've discussed,

01:23:45   in many ways, Bluetooth headphones are worse

01:23:48   than wired headphones, or at least more complicated

01:23:50   at best, but it really is a lot more convenient

01:23:53   in a number of big ways in practice,

01:23:56   and that's why my walking headphones

01:23:59   are these terrible sounding little, tiny,

01:24:02   relatively inexpensive Sennheiser Bluetooth ones,

01:24:04   because I'm listening to podcasts,

01:24:06   so the quality doesn't matter very much,

01:24:07   and it's just so much more convenient

01:24:10   with Bluetooth headphones that have no wire

01:24:13   and have nice big button controls on the ear cup.

01:24:16   And so I think people are gonna feel similarly

01:24:18   about the AirPods, where if you really want big,

01:24:21   thumpin' bass and everything for music,

01:24:23   you're probably gonna go with Beats

01:24:25   or some other headphone that's more for that purpose

01:24:28   and tuned for that, but if you just want

01:24:30   like basically headphones as a utilitarian object

01:24:35   that are primarily serving a functional role for you

01:24:39   and you don't really care as much about the quality,

01:24:42   then I think they're gonna be really great.

01:24:43   Again, my only reservation about them is

01:24:45   how inconvenient will it really be in practice

01:24:48   to not have a lot of remote control options,

01:24:51   to not have the volume control,

01:24:52   to not have the seek buttons.

01:24:54   And in practice, I think most people won't care

01:24:58   because most people could only ever use

01:25:01   the volume control in Play/Pause.

01:25:03   Most people never even knew

01:25:05   that you could double click or triple click

01:25:07   or click and hold that middle button to do other things,

01:25:10   like the seeking and stuff.

01:25:11   So that might end up not mattering at all

01:25:15   to most buyers of it, but to geeks like us,

01:25:17   I think people who were aware

01:25:19   of the remote control gestures,

01:25:20   I think it's gonna be a notable omission.

01:25:22   But otherwise, they do seem like

01:25:23   they're gonna be pretty compelling.

01:25:25   And I might get a pair, just as I said,

01:25:26   just to see can I get away with this,

01:25:28   because there are situations

01:25:29   where I would probably want those.

01:25:33   my walking Bluetooth headphones,

01:25:35   I can't put those in my pocket.

01:25:37   They don't fit in pockets, but these,

01:25:39   I can put them in their little case,

01:25:41   which I think their case does fit in pockets.

01:25:43   It's a little thick, right, but it does fit, right?

01:25:45   Isn't it like a dental floss size roughly?

01:25:48   - It's got a thick, yeah, but it looks like

01:25:49   like a Tic Tacs or something.

01:25:50   It's definitely pocketable.

01:25:52   - So there are lots of occasions where

01:25:54   I would like to have headphones with me,

01:25:56   but I don't have a pocket to devote to them.

01:25:58   So I would love to have these for those kind of situations

01:26:02   if I can wear them without pain.

01:26:04   So time will tell on that front,

01:26:05   but they are probably going to be very practical

01:26:10   and very compelling in real world use.

01:26:13   - So we're gonna do some ear spreaders

01:26:15   so you can start preparing.

01:26:17   - Wow.

01:26:18   - That's the problem, right?

01:26:20   Your ears are too small, they don't fit in there?

01:26:21   - Honestly, I don't know what the problem is.

01:26:23   It's, they seemed, I think my ears are not just,

01:26:26   are not too small, but just like don't have

01:26:27   exactly the right type of shape for them to sit properly.

01:26:30   I don't know, I don't know what the problem is.

01:26:32   Whatever the problem is, they don't sit very well in there and it hurts.

01:26:35   What are those things they call that you put in shoes?

01:26:36   Shoe trees?

01:26:37   Yeah, the things that hold them open?

01:26:39   Yeah, you need ear trees.

01:26:41   Wow.

01:26:42   Ear trees shaped like ear pods.

01:26:44   That's Apple's next big product.

01:26:46   The world will conform to our ear pods.

01:26:48   We measured a thousand ears.

01:26:50   Get in line.

01:26:51   I mean, couldn't you just take the wired ones that come in the box for free and just shove

01:26:54   those in there all the time?

01:26:55   I don't know.

01:26:56   It's still open for debate whether they're exactly the same shape as the wireless ones.

01:26:59   Goodness.

01:27:00   - All right, well, I believe that's it for today, right?

01:27:03   - I think so.

01:27:04   - All right, thank you very much to our three sponsors,

01:27:06   Betterment, Linode, and Pingdom.

01:27:08   We will see you next week.

01:27:10   (upbeat music)

01:27:12   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:27:14   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:27:17   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:27:19   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:27:20   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:27:21   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:27:23   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:27:25   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:27:28   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:27:29   It was accidental.

01:27:33   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:27:38   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:27:43   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:27:47   So that's Kasey Liszt M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M.

01:27:52   T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:27:59   It's accidental (accidental)

01:28:02   They didn't mean to accidental (accidental)

01:28:07   Tech podcast so long

01:28:12   Rifola, I have been barking up this tree so many times, and Marco refuses to listen.

01:28:19   - Oh, IEMs, yes, I know.

01:28:22   Yeah, no, there was one time where in 2006 or so,

01:28:26   I did try one of the entry level,

01:28:30   I think it might have been one of the Shure ones,

01:28:32   or Edamonic, I forget which one I did,

01:28:34   but I did try an entry level IEM

01:28:36   with a few different various tips on it,

01:28:39   and I had to return it.

01:28:40   I could not, even that, it hurt, I couldn't wear it.

01:28:44   - Well, the custom mold ones are very special.

01:28:46   You pour some goop into your ear.

01:28:49   - But I feel like the custom mold,

01:28:50   like first of all, I think the cheapest custom molded ones

01:28:53   are like $700-ish, like somewhere in that price range.

01:28:56   - Oh yeah, for you, that's so damn expensive, mister.

01:28:59   I spend gazillions of dollars on headphones on a daily basis.

01:29:03   - But to spend $700 on something that I will almost

01:29:06   certainly not be able to use and that I can't return

01:29:09   or resell, that is not a great sell.

01:29:13   - I understand where you're coming from,

01:29:15   which is why I'm only going to slightly beat you up,

01:29:18   But the whole point of custom-poured IEMs

01:29:21   is that they are built for Marco Armond.

01:29:24   They are perfect for Marco Armond

01:29:26   because they literally put goop in your ears

01:29:28   to make a mold of your ears.

01:29:29   - Oh, I know, I know.

01:29:30   - Like, this is, it is by design, by definition, perfect.

01:29:35   That is the whole point.

01:29:36   - But what if the problem isn't the shape?

01:29:37   What if the problem is like,

01:29:38   my ear is too sensitive there or whatever?

01:29:41   - The problem isn't like crap in his ears.

01:29:42   It's like, they're perfect.

01:29:44   If you want something that perfectly wedges itself

01:29:46   in your ear canal,

01:29:46   this'll perfectly fit in your ear canal.

01:29:48   I was like, "No, I don't want something

01:29:50   "filling up my ear canal.

01:29:51   "I want there to be air in my ear canal

01:29:53   "and maybe a little bit of wax and some hair

01:29:55   "because I'm old."

01:29:56   (laughing)

01:29:57   - Yeah, like I find, I mean, people who love

01:30:00   and can use IEMs, more power to you,

01:30:02   I find them a little gross.

01:30:04   And I also like, the amount of isolation they provide

01:30:08   is not usually something I want.

01:30:10   Like if I'm not walking--

01:30:11   - That's actually, that's a fair point.

01:30:12   - I don't want full isolation.

01:30:14   Like my little stupid Sennheiser ones are these,

01:30:17   you know, relatively small on-ear headphones.

01:30:19   So they are closed back, but there's not much ceiling

01:30:22   that's actually happening.

01:30:23   So I'm not very isolated from the world.

01:30:25   So I can hear things like traffic,

01:30:26   which is pretty important when I'm walking.

01:30:29   So, especially 'cause, you know,

01:30:30   I'm often walking in the street with my dog.

01:30:32   So, you know, to be able to hear cars coming

01:30:35   is fairly important.

01:30:36   - See, that I have no argument for.

01:30:38   But the, oh, I don't think it'll feel good.

01:30:40   Oh, just go try it.

01:30:41   Just so I don't have to complain and moan at you

01:30:43   for the rest of my life.

01:30:44   - If you wanna pitch him,

01:30:45   if you wanna get him to use these things,

01:30:46   You gotta go to the audiophile angle and say,

01:30:47   people say that the real best sounding earphones

01:30:50   are the ones that jam themselves up inside your ear

01:30:52   like little eels.

01:30:53   That's the way to go for it.

01:30:55   - Again, I've never benefited from this,

01:30:58   but people do say that IEMs are really amazing

01:31:02   and the quality you can get out of a good pair of IEMs

01:31:04   is really something.

01:31:05   - So that's what's gonna bring you over the edge eventually

01:31:06   if anything ever does.

01:31:07   It's not going to be the idea that it'll be better

01:31:11   than the Bluetooth ones you're using.

01:31:13   - Yeah, I doubt it.

01:31:14   - I'm predicting now that I think you'll switch

01:31:16   to the EarPods if they in any way manage to stay in your ear.

01:31:18   So they don't obviously then whatever,

01:31:20   you'll just give them the TIFF.

01:31:21   'Cause I feel like they're just gonna be so much more

01:31:22   convenient than those big like,

01:31:24   I'm one of those people who would feel weird

01:31:27   walking around outside, walking the dog

01:31:29   with big headphones on, and other ears aren't big.

01:31:31   - They're not big.

01:31:32   - They're bigger than EarPods, put it that way.

01:31:34   Somehow in my world I feel okay with earbuds

01:31:36   going on a walk, I don't feel okay with the thing

01:31:38   that goes over my head.

01:31:39   Anyway, I think once you, you know, use the EarPods.

01:31:41   - Honestly, I find EarPods, I think EarPods

01:31:43   look a little bit dumb.

01:31:44   - They do, they're a little dumb, I will grant you,

01:31:47   but they're certainly less conspicuous from a distance

01:31:50   than the big thing on your ears.

01:31:53   And I think probably you'll be able to hear more

01:31:55   with ear pods, someone who wears ear pods every day

01:31:57   when walking around and stuff,

01:31:59   I think they don't do much noise isolation at all.

01:32:02   Like I think you'll be able to hear more traffic,

01:32:04   which I think is a good thing

01:32:05   'cause you really shouldn't be walking around on roads

01:32:07   with earphones on.

01:32:07   - No, I would actually want that.

01:32:10   - Or just do one ear, and if you're just doing podcasts,

01:32:12   just do one ear and listen to mono,

01:32:13   something you can't do with a headset, right?

01:32:15   - I do it all the time.

01:32:16   Take one off and just stick it next to my ear on my head.

01:32:18   You know, like put it forward.

01:32:18   - It's even more ridiculous.

01:32:20   It's still on your head, it's still squishing.

01:32:21   Anyway, one EarPod and a dog is all you need.

01:32:25   - So earlier today, there was a rumor

01:32:29   that Apple was in talks to buy McLaren

01:32:32   who makes supercars and many, many other things

01:32:35   works on an F1 team or it is an F1 team or whatever.

01:32:38   - Strollers.

01:32:40   - Strollers.

01:32:41   - Different company, right?

01:32:42   - Yeah, it's a different company.

01:32:43   They were going to buy McLaren, then they were going to make a strategic investment

01:32:47   in McLaren, and then, no, they're definitely not looking at McLaren.

01:32:50   No, they're not.

01:32:51   No, nobody's looking at us.

01:32:52   Leave us alone.

01:32:53   So what do we think about this?

01:32:55   Is this a thing?

01:32:56   It doesn't sound like this is a thing, but if it was a thing, then certainly both companies

01:33:01   would be saying, "Oh, no, that's not a thing."

01:33:02   Well, this is a McLaren spokesperson official comment.

01:33:05   Obviously, Apple's not commenting.

01:33:06   Well, sometimes they do on these things to deny them, but the McLaren says, "We can confirm

01:33:11   The McLaren is not in discussions with Apple in in respect of any potential investment

01:33:16   I don't know who the sex has any respect of it's probably some weird Britishism

01:33:19   But anyway in respect of any potential investment that doesn't rule out them buying them outright. That's just an investment

01:33:25   So all they have denied is the investment that didn't even bother to deny buying them outright

01:33:29   So I feel like this is a bad job from corporate PR

01:33:33   If you're gonna do the thing where you just deny everything whether it's sure or not

01:33:36   But either way obviously it seemed like the goal of the PR was no no, no forget everything you heard

01:33:40   And that's all BS, which is fine. Go ahead and do that and then you know three weeks later

01:33:44   It can turn out to be different either way. Yes, it deny everything

01:33:47   You can't issue a denial that you forget to deny

01:33:49   One of the possibilities because now I can't help but read that and say oh, so I guess they're not investing in you

01:33:53   They bought you out

01:33:54   But anyway setting aside the corporate PR speak my question all this is of all the car companies in the world

01:34:00   That Apple is gonna buy

01:34:02   Does it make sense that they would buy McLaren?

01:34:05   Obviously Tesla doesn't want them because they're mad at each other and whatever right because that we've talked about that deal in the past

01:34:10   likely they would be a good fit, but that Musk doesn't want to do it and, you know,

01:34:16   whatever. They have some bad blood there that marriage doesn't seem like it's going to happen,

01:34:20   although it totally makes sense strategically for both companies if Apple wants to get into

01:34:24   cars. But McLaren? Tell me the synergies.

01:34:28   Yeah, I don't know anything about McLaren, but I thought the same thing of, like, if

01:34:37   If Apple is really making a car,

01:34:39   and if they really are,

01:34:41   if it's what we expect it to be,

01:34:43   which would be most likely only electric cars,

01:34:48   most likely for the mass market,

01:34:51   starting at the high end probably first,

01:34:53   and then coming down over time as they could.

01:34:55   - Kinda like Tesla. - Similar to what Tesla's

01:34:56   doing, right.

01:34:58   It seems like, and that's why,

01:35:00   if you're thinking about would Apple buy another car company

01:35:02   if they wanted to get into the car business,

01:35:03   it seems like, yeah, Tesla's the obvious one to buy

01:35:06   because it seems like whatever Apple would do

01:35:08   in the car business would be very close

01:35:10   to what Tesla is already doing in the car business.

01:35:12   And there would just be lots of duplicated effort

01:35:16   for Apple to reach where Tesla already is.

01:35:18   - Or the other angle is the thing

01:35:20   that neither Tesla nor Apple are good at.

01:35:22   Tesla is a newish car company.

01:35:24   They haven't been building cars for very long.

01:35:26   Their original cars are based on Lotus things,

01:35:28   and Apple has never built a car.

01:35:30   One of the other investment or strategic partnership

01:35:35   or purchase things you can do is find a company

01:35:38   that has been building cars forever

01:35:39   and kind of knows how to do that

01:35:41   in the way that it has been done in the past.

01:35:43   A company with car manufacturing experience,

01:35:45   mass car manufacturing experience.

01:35:47   Tesla doesn't have that and Apple doesn't have that.

01:35:49   So you could also say,

01:35:50   "Oh, maybe they go with like a Honda or something,"

01:35:52   because it's like, "Oh, or Toyota or BMW."

01:35:54   We keep hearing them talking to BMW about things

01:35:57   and those companies that do,

01:35:59   whatever that company is called,

01:36:00   Magna Steer or whatever that does like the,

01:36:03   subcontractor for BMW. Those kind of deals make sense to me because it's

01:36:07   complementary. Apple's bringing one thing but they don't know how the hell to make

01:36:09   a car. And in that respect Tesla doesn't really know how to make a car either.

01:36:13   They're just kind of figuring out as they go along. They're doing a good job

01:36:15   but they don't have the years and years of experience in terms of like the

01:36:18   Toyota assembly line and mass-market things. McLaren does not make a lot of

01:36:23   cars let's be honest. They don't know how to make thousands and thousands and

01:36:26   thousands of cars. Yes, the only synergy I see is McLaren has that Apple aesthetic

01:36:32   where everything is beautiful and clean and super expensive and the pictures of their factory are

01:36:36   amazing and did you see that uh what is that Netflix thing it's uh it's some supercar thing

01:36:42   at apex the story of the supercar or something it's on Netflix it's a documentary it's so so

01:36:47   but you get to see a lot of shots of the inside of uh the factories of these various car makers

01:36:51   less so Ferrari because I have a feeling Ferrari didn't want to participate in this at all which

01:36:54   is kind of a shame but you can kind of tell we couldn't get much access to Ferrari anyway um

01:36:59   Everything looks beautiful. The McLaren car factory looks like you would imagine an Apple car factory would look, but guess what? They're building supercars there.

01:37:06   They're building cars that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. That is not

01:37:11   what the tree that Apple's barking up. And by the way,

01:37:14   they also have an F1 team and they all do a bunch of other stuff that does

01:37:17   not really have any particular synergy with Apple.

01:37:20   Maybe Apple might someday make a car or something related to the cars. Is Apple gonna get into F1?

01:37:24   No, I feel like we're reaching.

01:37:26   - Yeah, that's the thing.

01:37:27   I mean, like, if Apple were to buy or strategically invest

01:37:31   a lot in another car company,

01:37:33   I would expect it to be somebody who makes a lot of cars,

01:37:38   or who already has the kind of car in development,

01:37:41   or the kind of skills that Apple would be using

01:37:43   for things like electric cars.

01:37:45   McLaren seems to have neither of those.

01:37:46   You know, it's a very different kind of company.

01:37:49   If I had to put forth a company that maybe might be,

01:37:53   I'd say maybe Nissan, 'cause they have the Leaf project

01:37:55   that actually-- - Oh, please.

01:37:56   - Ugh, you're killing me here.

01:37:58   - No, but look, Nissan is a company

01:38:01   that needs a lot of design help, let's be honest.

01:38:02   - They need a lot of help in every area

01:38:04   of making cars at this point.

01:38:06   They have really lost their way lately.

01:38:08   - Yeah, but mostly in design choices.

01:38:10   What they do have is a successful electric car

01:38:14   that is already, like they already have

01:38:16   a lot of the stuff required to do that.

01:38:18   They have a massive network of factories,

01:38:21   showrooms, dealers, service centers, parts.

01:38:24   They have all the stuff that is hard,

01:38:26   and they can make lots of cars at reasonable prices.

01:38:29   So these are all the challenges of doing a new car company,

01:38:33   especially a new consumer-focused car company

01:38:36   that's going to try to sell lots of cars.

01:38:37   So a company, maybe not exactly Nissan,

01:38:40   but a company like Nissan would make way more sense

01:38:43   to invest in or partner with or to just outright buy

01:38:45   if that was possible.

01:38:47   That would make way more sense if Apple wants to do

01:38:51   what we think they're trying to do than McLaren.

01:38:53   - Please Apple, don't buy Nissan, please.

01:38:55   of all the car companies.

01:38:56   I mean, I would say you'd be better off buying GM than Nissan.

01:38:59   That's how bad I think it is.

01:39:00   Wow, that's saying a lot.

01:39:03   I would say-- and Matt Drance put this idea in my head--

01:39:07   what about Lotus?

01:39:09   But what do they have?

01:39:10   They have design aesthetically and chassis design for sure.

01:39:15   Well, Apple doesn't need the aesthetic part of it.

01:39:17   The chassis design, sure, but the chassis design

01:39:20   for sort of these beautiful, extremely low volume

01:39:24   racing cars that Apple is not making and the Lotus cars are lightweight and don't have

01:39:29   giant battery packs in them.

01:39:30   Except, I mean, the Tesla Roadster was effectively a Lotus Elise, wasn't it?

01:39:35   Right, but Lotus didn't put that battery in there.

01:39:37   Elon Musk crammed it behind the back seat.

01:39:39   Well, and the thing is, you can look at what Tesla has done in a relatively short time.

01:39:43   And Apple, there's no reason why Apple couldn't do the same kinds of things.

01:39:47   So the basics of just making an electric car,

01:39:51   getting it designed, built, certified, safe on the road,

01:39:56   and getting it into people's hands,

01:39:57   getting a sales network going,

01:39:59   getting a charging network going

01:40:00   if they're not gonna use standards, all that stuff.

01:40:04   Tesla did it so Apple could do it too, plausibly.

01:40:06   Tesla did it in a relatively short time,

01:40:08   relative to people like Nissan,

01:40:10   a relatively short time with a lot of budget constraints

01:40:15   and a lot of trying to prove the idea first to people

01:40:18   and try to get people to even consider an all electric car

01:40:22   and especially a very expensive one.

01:40:24   So, Tesla had to do all that themselves and they did.

01:40:27   So, Apple could, there's nothing stopping Apple from doing it

01:40:31   where Apple would need help

01:40:33   is in the more mass market stuff.

01:40:35   So, yeah, they can make their own chassis.

01:40:36   They don't need someone else to make a chassis

01:40:38   if they feel like it.

01:40:40   They don't need someone else to do design.

01:40:43   whatever McLaren's designing,

01:40:45   Apple would have their own opinions,

01:40:46   and that, you know, it's almost like,

01:40:49   like if you're buying a house,

01:40:51   if you're looking at houses to buy,

01:40:53   and you walk in to one, and there's like this,

01:40:55   this like two-year-old, you know,

01:40:58   some nearly brand new kitchen,

01:41:01   and it's all designed the wrong way,

01:41:03   but you're just like, man, like,

01:41:05   it would be really wasteful to buy this place,

01:41:08   and to hate this kitchen, even, 'cause it's brand new,

01:41:12   Now what are you gonna do, like remodel a brand new place?

01:41:14   That's incredibly wasteful, like that's bad.

01:41:17   I think McLaren being involved in the design

01:41:19   of the Apple car would have a similar thing.

01:41:21   Like you have an already established

01:41:23   highly opinionated design company here

01:41:26   that would conflict with whatever Apple

01:41:27   would want its design to be.

01:41:29   So you don't want like two very opinionated people

01:41:32   on the same thing fighting for power.

01:41:34   That's the whole reason why Apple

01:41:37   probably will never buy Tesla,

01:41:38   because like Elon Musk would not let that happen,

01:41:40   is he doesn't want to have Apple come in

01:41:42   and tell him what to do.

01:41:44   He wants to do things his way because he's running the show

01:41:47   and he's done pretty well so far, all things considered.

01:41:50   So he doesn't want Apple coming in

01:41:51   and telling him what to do.

01:41:53   So if Apple's going to buy or substantially partner

01:41:56   with another company, it's gonna have to be

01:41:58   the kind of relationship where the other company

01:42:01   will do the stuff Apple sees as boring,

01:42:04   maybe beneath them or just really uninteresting.

01:42:08   and Apple will do the stuff that Apple likes to do.

01:42:10   So software, UI, design.

01:42:13   - So the other thing is the notes related to this

01:42:15   is this other story from, you know,

01:42:18   10 days or so ago about the rumor that Apple

01:42:21   has changed the focus of their car project,

01:42:23   shifting from an emphasis on designing

01:42:25   and producing an automobile to building out

01:42:27   the underlying technology for an autonomous vehicle.

01:42:29   That's a quote from this story that we'll link.

01:42:32   That was in the New York Times actually.

01:42:33   So it's like, hey, we're not building a car anymore.

01:42:35   Instead, we are whatever the hell building out the underlying technology for an autonomous

01:42:41   vehicle.

01:42:42   It makes it sound like they're making self-driving software, but you can't really do that without

01:42:45   a target car.

01:42:46   So I'm not quite sure.

01:42:47   I mean, this is kind of the trickle out of the rumor that we had been hearing for many

01:42:51   months about, oh, the project Titan, the car project has had this big reorg and big Bob

01:42:56   Mansfield has come in and reshuffled things.

01:43:00   And so that seems like a thing that's happening, but a big reorg and a reshuffling, we don't

01:43:04   know the details and so this is the first trying to pin that down say oh it

01:43:07   really happened is they're shifting their emphasis under the from designing

01:43:12   and producing a car but you don't really shift them it's like either you're

01:43:14   making a car you're not making a car you can't accidentally make a car like you

01:43:17   know that's that's a pretty big shift it's like so are we going to manufacture

01:43:21   build and sell a metal thing with wheels or are we not or are we just gonna work

01:43:26   on like software and you know so I don't know I don't know what the hell's going

01:43:29   on over there all I know is this project spend a lot of money and we've talked

01:43:31   about it for a long time and there's still no car, so chop chop Apple. You got maybe

01:43:36   maybe three more years to show something for this.

01:43:38   I mean from these stories coming out too it sounds like there's still everything still

01:43:42   in a lot of flux so it sounds like whatever Apple is doing is probably not imminent.

01:43:47   Oh no we always expect it like 2020 but at this point I feel like you have to decide

01:43:51   if you're you know you haven't decided whether you're building a car yet I don't see you

01:43:54   having a car to sell in 2020. Like it takes a long time for these things so I don't I

01:43:58   don't know what's going on here.

01:43:59   restructuring the place and laying off a bunch of people like now in late 2016,

01:44:03   that doesn't bode well for a 2020 launch date of a brand new car. A car is a lot harder to ship than

01:44:11   other things. There's a lot involved here. Yeah, and I can imagine them partnering,

01:44:16   like bringing McLaren back in. Because the aesthetics are so similar and because you can

01:44:21   imagine them starting with something expensive, it wouldn't be ridiculous for them to partner.

01:44:25   McLaren would help them manufacture this electric car that's like

01:44:29   Apple and McLaren co-branded high-end like the apples version of the Tesla Roadster

01:44:34   That's like I don't know

01:44:35   I feel like that would just be a weird thing to do but there are synergies here car companies do stuff with each other all

01:44:41   The time everyone's using Toyota's hybrid systems Volvo is reselling its self-driving stuff people using transmissions from all the entire fleet of

01:44:49   Part sellers like ZF and everything that the supply parts to the entire industry like in the car world

01:44:54   It's not as if there are these islands that make cars so I think anybody BMW all these rumors

01:44:59   You've heard apples been talking to BMW forever would totally be willing to partner with Apple and any kind of thing that they want to

01:45:03   Do related to cars. I just keep pointing back to Apple signing Apple

01:45:07   What do you want to do because there's lots of car companies that will partner with you in various ways

01:45:11   There's probably car companies that would let you buy them probably including Nissan

01:45:14   Because you know, I don't think McLaren would let them buy because I don't think my laryn's hurting for money at this point

01:45:20   But there are so many possibilities.

01:45:23   Apple just needs to decide what it is they want to do

01:45:26   because it's fine to waffle in secrecy,

01:45:28   but at this point, the car project

01:45:30   is practically an open secret.

01:45:32   Even Tim Cook can't help but hinting at it.

01:45:35   And if you have nothing to show for that five years from now,

01:45:38   in one respect, it's good that Apple

01:45:39   didn't ship something crappy, but in another respect,

01:45:42   that's a hell of a boondoggle.

01:45:43   It's fine to have projects and then cancel them

01:45:45   when they don't work out, but allowing a project

01:45:47   that's assuming this much money to go on

01:45:49   for five, for 10 years, like a certain point,

01:45:52   it's, I'm not gonna, you know,

01:45:54   some cost fallacy is making you not want to cancel it

01:45:56   and canceling it may still be the right thing to do,

01:45:59   but canceling it five years earlier

01:46:01   would have been the right thing to do.

01:46:03   - So to go back a step when we were discussing

01:46:07   who could Apple buy, if that was the answer,

01:46:10   let me throw a really, really peculiar idea at you.

01:46:13   What about BMW?

01:46:14   Because according, like, I don't really understand

01:46:18   all this businessy stuff works because I actually do work for a living instead of just running

01:46:23   around and talking about stuff. But the owners of BMW are Stefan or Stefan Quant, Suzanne

01:46:31   Klattin, who I believe is also a quant by birth. The two of them own 50% of the company

01:46:36   and the public owns the other 50%. If you could convince at least 1% of the public to

01:46:40   sell, would that work? And I mean the BMW market cap as per Google is 50 billion. So

01:46:46   could it be done? I mean, they have the money. The problem with buying those big companies is

01:46:51   like the same thing with the F1 team. It's like if you buy BMW, I feel like the only way that's

01:46:56   going to fly is if you buy it with the intention to continue for at least the short term, continue

01:47:03   being BMW, which means continuing to sell cars and, you know, regular non-electric cars and hybrid

01:47:09   cars and develop like if you're not going to do that, if you're buying them to say, okay, and all

01:47:14   all existing BMW lines are canceled,

01:47:15   like you've just killed half the value of the company.

01:47:17   And then the question is,

01:47:18   does Apple want to continue running BMW as BMW,

01:47:23   as like a Clarus type thing,

01:47:24   like a wholly owned subsidiary

01:47:26   that you're content to continue to follow BMW's plan

01:47:29   for future cars, slowly transitioning to electric,

01:47:31   doing all that stuff,

01:47:32   while in the meantime also doing some Apple-y thing?

01:47:34   It's much better and much simpler

01:47:36   when you can buy companies that,

01:47:37   like Apple does all the time,

01:47:39   these little companies that you can entirely consume

01:47:42   and say, whatever the hell you were working on before,

01:47:44   that's great and everything, but we are either taking the technology from it or

01:47:47   just taking the employees or just like it's going to transform and come out as

01:47:51   an Apple product. The products you were making before are gone even if we use

01:47:56   like the code or the technology or the people or whatever you have just become

01:48:00   part of Apple. You can't do that with BMW, you can't buy them and say forget about all

01:48:03   those cars that you were making before no one will ever see them again from now

01:48:07   on we just take you and all your expertise and factories and people and

01:48:10   designers and we'll make an Apple car and I think that doesn't fly because it

01:48:14   destroys too much value that's currently in BMW. I mean that's fair but they took

01:48:18   Beats and Beats is still largely Beats isn't it? I mean I don't feel that

01:48:23   different. Yeah that's the Claris thing, wholly owned subsidiary with its own

01:48:27   brand but that's that's a pretty big exception and I think is Beats still

01:48:30   their biggest acquisition? It might be. I would assume. Anyway that's a that's a

01:48:35   weird one and we talked about at the time do they get to stay Beats or become

01:48:37   Apple's headphones. They stay Beats, but I think continuing to sell headphones is a much

01:48:42   easier fit than Apple saying, "We want to buy this company that makes a whole line of

01:48:45   cars and continue to sell that whole line of cars." It's not as if Apple bought Beats

01:48:51   and Apple had been making its own line of Beats-like headphones for years and then continued

01:48:55   to sell both of them. It didn't. It didn't have headphones like that, and now it does,

01:48:59   and it's branding them as Beats. And Claris is the counterexample where they spun off

01:49:02   quote-unquote this company to make all these things, and it just kind of withered on the

01:49:06   vine. It's still out there, I think, but it never really... it was never really allowed

01:49:11   to fly free, and nor was it, like, supported by the Apple mothership in a way that could

01:49:15   make it really succeed.

01:49:16   I think also, I mean, the big reason why they wouldn't buy BMW is that BMW is the anti-Apple.

01:49:23   Their cars are full of buttons. They're just buttons for everything. There's buttons everywhere.

01:49:29   There's physical knobs and buttons...

01:49:31   Sometimes there's not a button to sync the right and left climate control, I hear.

01:49:34   Yeah.

01:49:35   Oh, goodness.

01:49:36   [