185: The Delaware of Europe


00:00:00   It's been a long time.

00:00:01   - It has been a surprisingly long time.

00:00:03   It was like--

00:00:04   - Like two weeks ago, right?

00:00:05   - Yes, it was the 18th, so it's two weeks in a day.

00:00:09   - Wow.

00:00:09   - Man, I miss you guys.

00:00:11   - A lot has happened in the meantime.

00:00:13   Chiefly, that I determined that I like the beach now.

00:00:16   - You're funny how that is.

00:00:17   We should actually examine that.

00:00:20   - How old are you now that it took so long?

00:00:22   - Whoa, whoa, whoa, before you beat up on Marco,

00:00:25   I will tell you that I just discovered I liked the beach

00:00:27   about two to three years, maybe three years ago.

00:00:29   So apparently Marco and I are equally slow on this realization.

00:00:33   I don't know. I don't know what's wrong with you guys.

00:00:35   So how many times did you have to rent a house on the beach for a few days to like it?

00:00:41   I actually would say the first time we did that I liked it, but, but, it is important to note that I was well into adulthood at this point.

00:00:50   And I don't remember, was it with you guys I was discussing this? It might have been on the post-show.

00:00:55   But the pop-up, what do they call them? Like awnings? Not awning.

00:00:59   Shoot. They call them umbrellas. You push the middle and the... No, tent. The little tent thingies.

00:01:05   Yeah, it's like a tent, but it's just the roof part of the tent. So it's like a big square

00:01:09   that's like... Yeah, we saw a picture of your thing that you should never ever bring on a beach.

00:01:12   Why? Because that's not a thing designed... That's for like having like a catered outdoor wedding.

00:01:18   Oh, yeah, totally. Not for bringing on the beach. Instant canopy is

00:01:23   is apparently what it's officially called.

00:01:25   - Do not bring it to the beach.

00:01:26   - You know, if you want a lot of shade from the sun,

00:01:29   which is what I want when I go to the beach,

00:01:32   that's a perfect way to do it.

00:01:33   - Well, but as discussed last time,

00:01:34   those tend to have a pretty poor shade to weight ratio.

00:01:38   They're awfully heavy for the amount of shade they provide.

00:01:41   We had a very large kind of extended umbrella.

00:01:46   So like the idea, you know, you put it like diagonally down,

00:01:48   so like the pole is running diagonally

00:01:50   with one end in the sand,

00:01:51   and then the other side just kind of resting on the sand.

00:01:54   But it has like extra long flaps on two sides,

00:01:57   so it kind of makes like a tent,

00:01:59   but that's open on one side,

00:02:01   so you get a ton of shade

00:02:02   in the total weight of an umbrella.

00:02:04   So that was pretty awesome.

00:02:07   - Yeah, that works out nicely.

00:02:08   I've seen things like that.

00:02:09   So yeah, so to go back a half step,

00:02:11   so the first time we rented a house,

00:02:12   well, that I participated in anyway,

00:02:15   we had one of these instant canopies.

00:02:17   The point is not as much the instant canopy,

00:02:20   just the fact that there's shade. However you decide to get your shade, umbrella, tenty thing,

00:02:25   instant canopy, doesn't matter. There's shade. Indoors. So I had shade. I had, I think the first

00:02:32   year I went, I read Ready Player One. And don't listen to what Jon says about Ready Player One.

00:02:36   It's a great book. I also had booze. And that combination really worked out nicely for me. And

00:02:43   And ever since then, I've found that if I have shade

00:02:46   and a book or a iOS device with a internet connection,

00:02:51   and I don't even need booze anymore, although it helps.

00:02:55   It actually is not too bad an experience.

00:02:57   So what turned the corner for you, Marco?

00:02:59   What made you decide this is not so bad?

00:03:02   - So last year, we went to the same place, Fire Island.

00:03:05   We spent five days there.

00:03:08   So part of the problem was that I was really sick

00:03:11   for most of that time.

00:03:12   so I wasn't really able to fully enjoy the time.

00:03:15   This year, we were there for seven or eight days,

00:03:18   eight days, and I was not sick.

00:03:20   So even last year, the shorter time

00:03:22   and being fairly uncomfortable most of the time,

00:03:25   I still enjoyed it last year.

00:03:27   I still enjoyed the place, I enjoyed walking around,

00:03:29   because while I don't really care

00:03:31   for the actual beach itself very much,

00:03:35   I do like the ocean breeze, the air.

00:03:39   I do like the beach town, and in Fire Island,

00:03:42   It's pretty awesome because you just kind of walk around everywhere.

00:03:44   There's no cars and everything's really kind of tightly packed on this little tiny strip

00:03:47   of island so everything's very walkable.

00:03:49   So I really enjoyed that part of it last year but just it was hard to really enjoy the whole

00:03:55   trip because of my condition.

00:03:57   But this year I spent a little more time on the actual beach this year and I kind of learned

00:04:02   how to make it work for me a little bit.

00:04:04   I still don't love like being in the sun or going in the water or eating seafood but I've

00:04:10   I've found ways to enjoy myself on the actual beach.

00:04:14   And then because we were there for longer

00:04:15   and I was feeling better this year,

00:04:17   I greatly enjoyed the rest of the town

00:04:19   and the week and the environment as well.

00:04:21   So basically, I really enjoyed it quite a bit.

00:04:25   And like eight days was enough time.

00:04:28   I feel like if you're somewhere for like three to five days,

00:04:33   you kind of are still in vacation,

00:04:35   like sightseeing kind of mode,

00:04:36   like active mode the whole time.

00:04:38   And there's a certain threshold,

00:04:39   I think I passed this trip, where if you're somewhere

00:04:42   for long enough, you kinda start living there.

00:04:45   Does that make sense?

00:04:46   - It does, actually, I do know what you're saying.

00:04:48   - Like, you kinda get kicked into a different mode,

00:04:50   where like, okay, now this is just what it's like

00:04:51   to live here, basically, for a short time,

00:04:53   as opposed to being active, doing stuff,

00:04:57   vacation mode, you know, the whole time.

00:04:59   So I got a brief sense of that living mode,

00:05:02   and I really enjoyed it.

00:05:04   - So what made the beach itself bearable, though?

00:05:07   I had said that in the past having booze in a book,

00:05:10   and I should actually elaborate that having Declan there,

00:05:13   particularly when he's in a positive mood,

00:05:15   which is usually, that's also just tremendously fun.

00:05:17   What turned the corner for you on the beach specifically?

00:05:20   - Well, so part of it was that.

00:05:22   Part of it was that the entire family really enjoys it.

00:05:25   So everyone's happy, everyone's having fun.

00:05:27   There's always stuff to do, nobody's ever bored.

00:05:29   So that's really nice.

00:05:30   But also, I just kind of figured out

00:05:32   how to sit in the shade for a little bit.

00:05:35   This year, I've kind of,

00:05:37   I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, it's probably some of both,

00:05:41   but I'm finally learning how to be able to turn my brain off for more than like 20

00:05:48   minutes at a time.

00:05:49   Like in the sense that I'm able to like relax and not wish I was sitting at a computer

00:05:54   getting stuff done all the time.

00:05:57   And this could be dangerous, like this could go too far and I just never want to work again.

00:06:02   I think I'm going to try to get a better balance of that.

00:06:05   And so I kind of got that this year, where I,

00:06:09   like last year, because I was pretty sick

00:06:11   and it was a shorter time and I was right in the middle

00:06:14   of trying to write piece.

00:06:16   So last year I actually worked a lot on that trip.

00:06:18   I mostly stayed back at the house

00:06:19   and everyone else went to the beach

00:06:20   and I mainly just worked on my laptop.

00:06:23   This year, I brought all my work with me.

00:06:26   I thought I'd get a lot done

00:06:28   and I got almost nothing done.

00:06:29   They would like, shockingly little,

00:06:31   considering how much I got done last year versus this year.

00:06:35   So I kind of learned how to take a vacation.

00:06:38   And it was to the point where when I came home,

00:06:40   I really missed it, which has never, ever happened

00:06:43   with any vacation I've ever taken.

00:06:45   - Hmm, that's awesome.

00:06:45   - Every vacation I ever take, when I get home,

00:06:47   like, oh, thank God I'm home, I can get back to everything.

00:06:49   This time I was like, oh, I miss vacation.

00:06:52   Anyway, so I'm broken forever, how are you guys?

00:06:55   - Well, I'm waiting for Jon to completely eviscerate us

00:06:59   for having just realized that the beach is a thing.

00:07:02   and you've been distressingly quiet, Jon.

00:07:05   So tell us, what do you have to say about the beach?

00:07:08   - I love that it's extra insulting

00:07:10   that I'm also going to Fire Island,

00:07:11   which I'm pretty sure is where Jon has gone

00:07:13   for beaches for years.

00:07:14   - No, I don't go to Fire Island,

00:07:16   but I go to other places in Long Island.

00:07:18   The only thing I think I have to add

00:07:19   is that I have not wanted to work and love the beach

00:07:21   since I was in single digit stages.

00:07:24   So way ahead of you.

00:07:26   You're just now getting to the point

00:07:27   where you don't want to work and love the beach?

00:07:29   Congratulations.

00:07:31   - Pretty much the rest of the human race.

00:07:34   It's way ahead of you on that curve.

00:07:36   That's what everybody wants to do is not work

00:07:38   and go to the beach and you're just like,

00:07:39   you know what, the beach is fun, working sucks.

00:07:42   - Turns out, I never knew.

00:07:44   - So there's a few ways, actually there's many ways

00:07:47   in which I am a terrible geek by typical geek standards.

00:07:51   One of those things is I don't like anime or Star Trek

00:07:55   or fantasy, like Lord of the Rings type stuff.

00:07:58   - You don't know you don't like anime.

00:07:59   - Okay, and so anyway, I think in this way, John,

00:08:04   I think you're a bad geek.

00:08:05   I think most geeks have the problem that I've had forever,

00:08:08   which is not really being able to turn my brain off

00:08:11   for more than like a day or two without getting restless.

00:08:14   - No, that's not a geek thing, that's a workaholic thing.

00:08:17   There's a difference.

00:08:18   - Yep, concur.

00:08:19   - Is it?

00:08:20   Well, I bet there's a lot of overlap there,

00:08:22   'cause like, it's not necessarily

00:08:23   that I want to do specific work,

00:08:26   it's that I want to do some, like I wanna do something.

00:08:29   That's why you're a workaholic.

00:08:31   - But I'm not, 'cause I don't wanna work on boring stuff

00:08:34   to get it done, I wanna work on weird MP3 encoders and stuff.

00:08:37   - Well, you're also bad at relaxing.

00:08:39   When you were describing, oh, I finally got into

00:08:41   the vacation mode where it's like you're living there.

00:08:43   It's like, no, you just finally relaxed.

00:08:45   And it's true.

00:08:46   Merlin talks about this too, how he goes on a vacation,

00:08:48   takes him three days to get into whatever mode.

00:08:51   He has another weird phrase, but it's just like,

00:08:53   you have to learn how to relax, and that's another skill

00:08:55   that I've always been very good at.

00:08:57   I'm really good at relaxing.

00:08:58   I'm an expert at relaxing.

00:08:59   In fact, I think most people are.

00:09:01   Most people, if you said,

00:09:03   "Starting now, sit on your butt and do nothing,"

00:09:05   they just descend into a little puddle and be like, "Ah."

00:09:08   But some other people, it takes a while to sort of,

00:09:10   to untie the 700 twisty ties that are around their,

00:09:14   invisible twisty ties that are around their brain

00:09:16   at all times and just slowly unwind them and turn and turn.

00:09:20   And then finally they release and you can go, "Ah."

00:09:22   And then you go home after the vacation's over.

00:09:25   Yeah.

00:09:26   - And I did finally,

00:09:27   I was thinking of you, Jon, much of the time,

00:09:29   because as I was trying to manage having a big camera

00:09:33   and my phone at the beach, of course, sand is everywhere.

00:09:37   Sand in my pockets, you know what else

00:09:39   is in people's pockets?

00:09:40   Sand.

00:09:41   I was thinking of you and your quotes from this show,

00:09:44   going back years, every time I was at the beach,

00:09:47   doing something.

00:09:48   - Yeah, so how did your big fancy camera fare

00:09:51   in the hostile environment of the beach?

00:09:53   - Very well, actually.

00:09:54   I did, funnily enough, I did appreciate

00:09:58   when I had the slightly longer lens on it.

00:10:00   (laughing)

00:10:02   - Funny how that is.

00:10:03   - I brought the 35 and the 55 primes.

00:10:06   And the 35 pictures were decent,

00:10:10   but I was happier in general with the 55 pictures.

00:10:13   And I got a lot of amazing pictures.

00:10:15   And just destroyed my laptop trying to process them

00:10:18   in Lightroom on battery, which is hilarious.

00:10:21   - So how far were you out in the water

00:10:23   with the expensive camera, like ankles, knees?

00:10:27   - Well, I was still in the wave zone,

00:10:30   so not necessarily a fixed depth,

00:10:32   but the closest I would let it get

00:10:35   was the bottom of my shorts.

00:10:38   Once I was that deep, I would hold the camera

00:10:40   up above my head if there was a big wave coming in,

00:10:43   or like, and there were, I think twice

00:10:45   it got a little bit of splash on it,

00:10:48   but otherwise it was pretty good.

00:10:49   - I think for someone with not a lot of beach experience,

00:10:51   I don't think you realize exactly how close you were

00:10:54   that entire time to destroying your camera

00:10:56   because you're like, oh, you know,

00:10:57   if the wave comes, I'll hold it up.

00:10:58   But you don't realize that like,

00:11:00   all it takes is one false move

00:11:02   or not paying attention for two seconds

00:11:04   in one wave that's a little bit bigger than the other ones

00:11:05   to put you on your butt and put that camera in the water.

00:11:08   So I think you're pretty lucky and pretty brave

00:11:10   to go out even that deep with your camera.

00:11:13   - I think you might be overestimating how deep I was.

00:11:15   It was literally like I was only in like

00:11:17   the wave splash zone and the most I got was

00:11:21   if the wave at maximum splash was tall enough

00:11:25   to get the bottom of my shorts wet.

00:11:26   - Yeah, those waves did look pretty small though

00:11:28   in the few pictures you had, but yeah,

00:11:30   if the water is touching your bathing suit,

00:11:33   you think, oh, I'm fine, right?

00:11:34   Especially because when the big one comes,

00:11:36   so much water will go out that it'll just be

00:11:38   barely touching your ankles and you'll take two steps in

00:11:39   and the big one comes and you're not paying attention,

00:11:41   spoosh.

00:11:42   Anyway, I'm glad you dodged the bullet

00:11:45   and managed to keep your camera alive

00:11:49   and take some good pictures.

00:11:50   - Yeah, I really got a lot of great pictures

00:11:51   and I spent a lot of time just picking through them

00:11:54   and lightly processing them, posting them on Instagram.

00:11:57   I finally started, I think now I'm kind of getting

00:11:59   what vacation is about.

00:12:00   Funnily enough though, every time I take a vacation

00:12:03   where I have my giant 15 inch MacBook Pro,

00:12:07   I am so happy I have that 15 inch MacBook Pro

00:12:11   and not anything smaller or weaker.

00:12:13   'Cause the things I do on vacation,

00:12:15   either I need nothing from it

00:12:17   or I need all the power and screen space

00:12:20   I can get. So my previously stated plans about maybe going to a 13 inch MacBook Pro when

00:12:25   the new ones come out, those plans are out the window and I'm going to either keep what

00:12:29   I have or get the new 15.

00:12:31   - Yeah, I honestly don't understand how anyone who doesn't travel for a living has anything

00:12:37   smaller than a 15 inch laptop. Like, I typically do not use my work laptop at home and it's

00:12:46   clamshelled at work and whether or not you think that's a smart choice, whatever.

00:12:49   But the point is I very rarely use the screen on the laptop but every time I do

00:12:55   I couldn't agree with you more. I don't understand how anyone could do anything

00:13:00   productive with less real estate. Again if you're like traveling professionally

00:13:03   totally get that but for regular humans, oh 15 all the way.

00:13:07   Oh yeah I mean it and like I tweeted the other day I pissed everybody off where I

00:13:13   I said basically like, as I'm using my laptop,

00:13:16   like the things I want are better battery and faster.

00:13:20   Thing I don't really care about is make it like 15% lighter,

00:13:24   I think so, whatever measure I used.

00:13:27   And this got a lot of people angry,

00:13:29   'cause they were saying, I walk with mine to work every day,

00:13:32   blah, blah, blah, and I would love for it to be 15% lighter.

00:13:35   And I get that, 'cause I used to do that too,

00:13:36   I did that for years.

00:13:37   The majority of the time I worked at Tumblr,

00:13:39   I was walking with a laptop in a bag pretty far every day,

00:13:42   and most of the time it was a 15 inch.

00:13:44   And this was back when the 15 inch was like 5.7 pounds,

00:13:47   now I think they're 4.5 and they're probably

00:13:48   about to get lighter.

00:13:49   So like, I know what that's like.

00:13:53   In fact, much of that time I also had an SLR

00:13:55   and a couple lenses in the bag with me as well,

00:13:57   which was not kind on my shoulders.

00:13:59   So I get that, if you're walking with it back and forth,

00:14:02   that does, you know, the total weight of it does matter.

00:14:06   However, when you get down to like,

00:14:08   you have like already a four and a half

00:14:10   or whatever pound laptop, if the weight savings

00:14:13   brings it down, like, let's say it's a pretty good savings.

00:14:16   Let's say it goes from four and a half pounds

00:14:17   to four pounds.

00:14:19   That's a pretty substantial savings in the world

00:14:20   of like, you know, laptop upgrades, basically.

00:14:23   Suppose they blow it out of the water somehow,

00:14:25   which I think is unrealistic, but let's say they go

00:14:26   to three and a half, so let's say they shave

00:14:28   a whole pound off of it.

00:14:29   Again, I think that's unrealistic.

00:14:31   But if they do that, the total weight of the bag

00:14:34   you're carrying is probably like 15 pounds.

00:14:37   Like, people carry a lot of stuff in their bags.

00:14:38   The bag itself weighs a lot empty.

00:14:41   If you're carrying a power adapter or not,

00:14:42   that's like another almost pound.

00:14:44   People carry so much that if you really, really need

00:14:48   to save half a pound or one pound

00:14:51   in the carry weight of your bag,

00:14:53   there are probably many other ways you can do that.

00:14:55   And if you're carrying enough stuff,

00:14:56   you actually might not quite notice that very much.

00:15:00   So basically, I think people, when they speculate

00:15:04   on how much they need laptop weight savings

00:15:07   in these little increments, I think they might be

00:15:09   overestimating how much they would actually notice that

00:15:12   in practice, how much difference it would actually make

00:15:13   in practice, and ignoring ways that you could save that

00:15:17   in some other way.

00:15:18   So for example, one of the ways I saved weight

00:15:20   when I was walking to and from work with laptops every day

00:15:23   is I just got a second power adapter and kept one at work.

00:15:26   So I never had a power adapter in my bag.

00:15:29   And that alone, this was a 15 inch data,

00:15:31   so that saved like a pound right there, you know?

00:15:34   Simple stuff like that.

00:15:35   And if you carry an iPad, maybe don't carry the keyboard.

00:15:40   There's stuff like that.

00:15:42   There are ways you can either spend a bit of money

00:15:45   to have some redundancy on both ends,

00:15:48   and things like power adapters or accessories,

00:15:50   or just make some tough decisions

00:15:52   about do I really need to carry this thing.

00:15:53   If carry weight's a big problem,

00:15:55   I highly suggest using a backpack and not a messenger bag.

00:15:58   There's lots of other ways you can do this

00:16:00   that will have way larger effects

00:16:02   than if your laptop alone with no other changes

00:16:05   got 15% lighter.

00:16:06   - I agree.

00:16:09   Alright, we should probably do a little bit of follow up

00:16:11   now that we're 20 minutes into the program.

00:16:14   - Just a little.

00:16:14   (electronic beeping)

00:16:17   - I'd like to start with a couple of notes.

00:16:19   First of all, I have returned my 32 gigs of RAM.

00:16:24   I have received 32 replacement gigs of RAM,

00:16:28   and my uptime is currently nine days.

00:16:31   - Are you plugged into the UPS?

00:16:33   - Yes, I am.

00:16:34   - Okay.

00:16:35   and I'm expecting the zzzz.

00:16:37   (laughing)

00:16:38   No, I'm just kidding.

00:16:38   - Are you recording in mauve format?

00:16:40   - I am recording in every frickin' format under this song.

00:16:43   - What color are you recording in?

00:16:44   Are you recording in mauve?

00:16:46   (laughing)

00:16:47   That's not even how you pronounce the color.

00:16:48   (laughing)

00:16:50   - Oh my goodness, but anyway,

00:16:53   but so I have nine days uptime so far.

00:16:55   We'll see if it continues.

00:16:57   Of course, now I have several system updates

00:16:59   I've been putting off for my testing purposes,

00:17:01   so please don't hack me.

00:17:03   But, so far so good, as I knock very quietly on wood.

00:17:08   Moving on, I have not yet looked at the Reddit, because I don't really go to Reddit ever,

00:17:15   and I haven't been trolling their mentions because I haven't had the time nor the inclination.

00:17:20   However, if the entire internet isn't beating the piss out of Hello Internet for issuing

00:17:25   an episode on vinyl, then I give up.

00:17:28   Because I paid the price for saying that vinyl may not be an embarrassment for months.

00:17:35   And here it is, they're releasing an entire special episode of Hello Internet on vinyl.

00:17:40   If all of you jerks aren't going after them...

00:17:43   Really?

00:17:44   I didn't even know this.

00:17:45   He's been on vacation.

00:17:46   If all of you jerks aren't going after them like you went after me, then I'm sorely disappointed.

00:17:50   Because they deserve it.

00:17:51   You shouldn't be, because they're doing it as a joke.

00:17:53   Get it?

00:17:54   It's funny.

00:17:55   show where they talk about it, they both, they throw in a few digs at the people who

00:17:59   think vinyl sounds better, haha, those people, what are they thinking, right? Like, so they're

00:18:03   on, they're on the right side there on this whole thing, and the whole idea is that it's

00:18:07   silly and a joke. The entire thing is a joke. So why would people make fun, if they had

00:18:11   released it and said, "Finally, people can listen to our voices in a higher fidelity

00:18:15   format," then people would be on them, believe me, but that's not what they said.

00:18:18   I wonder like how many people who, so this is apparently like extremely sold out now,

00:18:25   how many people who buy this have a way to even play it?

00:18:28   Like if I-

00:18:29   That was discussed on the program.

00:18:30   Like I went here to come buy it, but like if I even could get myself a copy, which I

00:18:35   can't right now, they're sold out, but if I could get one, I'd have to like go to my

00:18:38   mom's house or go to Casey's dad's house to actually play it.

00:18:41   And by the way, because vinyl is so stupid, it's only 45 minutes long and you have to

00:18:45   flip it in the middle.

00:18:48   You clearly did not live through the laserdisc era.

00:18:50   They should have used smart speed to record it.

00:18:52   They could have put more on.

00:18:54   Well, yeah, at least laserdisc players, most of them would—the whole head would flip

00:19:00   so you didn't have to move the disc.

00:19:03   But yeah, I'm glad you pointed out that you'd have to go to my dad's house because

00:19:06   I really don't think most people understand that I don't even have a record player.

00:19:09   I don't have a turntable because I don't have the space nor the inclination for it.

00:19:13   Because they're terrible.

00:19:15   In any case, I expect the internet to say, "Hello, hello, internet.

00:19:21   You guys are idiots because that's what you did to me."

00:19:23   And I understand the distinction.

00:19:25   But you shouldn't expect it.

00:19:27   You understand it's a joke?

00:19:28   Do you understand that on the program they directly address the thing that everyone was

00:19:31   yelling at you about and they said the opposite of what you said?

00:19:34   Eh, sort of.

00:19:36   I mean, I heard it.

00:19:37   I heard it.

00:19:38   But anyway.

00:19:39   So yeah, so all of you jerks, you can go after them now.

00:19:43   - Can we release an episode on cassette?

00:19:45   - Sure.

00:19:46   - Maybe actually, you know what we should do?

00:19:48   - Mini disc.

00:19:49   - 8-track.

00:19:50   - A floppy disc.

00:19:50   - 8-track, God, you are old.

00:19:52   And floppy disc, you're not gonna get a lot of space.

00:19:54   - 8-track, you don't have to flip that,

00:19:56   it just keeps playing.

00:19:57   - That's true, actually.

00:19:58   - If we really cram down the bit rate

00:20:00   and do like HEAAC, I'm pretty sure we can get

00:20:04   like 10 minutes on a floppy, maybe?

00:20:06   - No, it should come on like 17 floppy discs.

00:20:08   (laughing)

00:20:09   - That'd be amazing.

00:20:11   - You just have to keep putting it on.

00:20:12   I remember I took the, I think I've told the story before,

00:20:14   but my biggest floppy disk story is,

00:20:16   you remember the 1984 Apple commercial?

00:20:19   Well, in the early days of QuickTime,

00:20:21   Apple put out a QuickTime version of the 1984 commercial,

00:20:24   which must have been like lower resolution

00:20:28   than a Mac OS icon is today.

00:20:30   And it was like with the CinePak compression algorithm,

00:20:33   it looked terrible and it was really small.

00:20:35   But I was so excited to have it.

00:20:38   Like I had a digital version of that commercial today,

00:20:40   because back before you had a video on the internet,

00:20:42   how many times as a Mac fan had you seen

00:20:45   the Apple 1984 commercial?

00:20:47   On like, on the Clio Awards, you know,

00:20:49   retrospectives and stuff like that,

00:20:51   but in general, you tended not to see the ad anywhere.

00:20:54   You couldn't just go look at it on YouTube.

00:20:55   There was no YouTube, there was no video.

00:20:56   So finally I had a copy on video,

00:20:58   but the only way I could store it anywhere

00:21:00   was to put it on floppy disk,

00:21:01   'cause that was my only removable media.

00:21:03   So I did a multi-part stuff at Expander Archive

00:21:06   on 20, in 25 parts and on 25 floppy disks.

00:21:09   - Oh my God.

00:21:11   - I think I still have like a rubber band around the thing.

00:21:13   It's like 25 floppy disks.

00:21:15   And if I was to take them,

00:21:16   put each floppy disk in, piece at a time,

00:21:18   onto like a hard drive or something,

00:21:19   and then reassemble them into whole,

00:21:21   then decompress it,

00:21:22   I would have a tiny postage stamp size video

00:21:24   of this commercial.

00:21:26   - So my favorite floppy disk story,

00:21:27   which I've mentioned probably on the show before,

00:21:29   was when I was a kid,

00:21:33   we ran OS/2 at home 'cause dad worked for IBM.

00:21:36   And you can say a bunch of terrible things about OS/2,

00:21:39   but in some ways it was superior.

00:21:41   God, this doesn't sound familiar at all, does it?

00:21:43   Anyway, yeah, so OS/2 was the vinyl of operating systems.

00:21:47   In some ways it was superior, but I got my hand,

00:21:52   well, dad got his hands on a beta of OS/2 warp,

00:21:56   and that thing was on, I kid you not,

00:21:58   something like 50 floppy disks,

00:22:01   or well, they were the, what was it, three and a half?

00:22:04   So they weren't really floppy at that point,

00:22:06   but anyway, the three and a half inch disk.

00:22:08   were internally floppy. Yeah, right? And so I remember installing that thing took me like

00:22:13   14 weeks because it was just sit there and wait across each of these disks. It was ridiculous.

00:22:20   See this is why like I'm not nostalgic about vinyl because I grew up with a record player

00:22:26   in the house that my mom used regularly and that I would occasionally use as well. And

00:22:31   I like it annoyed me and I grew up then you know eventually when computers happened I

00:22:36   I grew up with five and a quarter,

00:22:37   and then three and a half inch floppy disks,

00:22:39   and lived through cassette tapes before CDs were a thing.

00:22:44   So all these old technologies,

00:22:46   like us looking back on vinyl,

00:22:47   I think is gonna be like if our children,

00:22:50   when they are old enough to become

00:22:51   their own version of hipsters,

00:22:53   when they look, if they have like fond recollections

00:22:57   of cassette tapes, even though they really kind of

00:22:59   never use them, and they're terrible.

00:23:03   - I don't know, vinyl to me is,

00:23:06   I don't see why it's any better than cassette tapes.

00:23:08   And cassette tapes themselves are terrible,

00:23:10   and we moved on, and I've moved on,

00:23:12   and the world has moved on,

00:23:13   and everyone's moved on except Casey.

00:23:16   - Right, so speaking of moving on from old things,

00:23:21   let's talk about installing operating systems

00:23:23   on one machine and then moving to another.

00:23:25   - Oh, geez, I forgot about this.

00:23:27   - Yeah, a lot of people are angry at Marco because--

00:23:29   - Oh, a lot of anger.

00:23:31   - Marco said mean things about Windows,

00:23:33   And he was angry, and now people are angry that he was angry.

00:23:36   But I'm mostly setting that aside, because I feel like Marco has taken his medicine from

00:23:40   all the Windows users who have emailed him to tell him what he said is wrong and hurtful.

00:23:44   Oh, no, I have opinions about that.

00:23:46   Oh, God.

00:23:47   All right.

00:23:48   Well, anyway, you can address that.

00:23:49   But the only reason I put this in here is because one of the points that was brought

00:23:51   up, and in fact I brought up in the program, was the idea that Marco was going to install

00:23:54   Windows onto an external drive and boot multiple, possibly different machines from it, like

00:24:00   boot a laptop, not just two 5K iMacs,

00:24:02   but boot a laptop from it and then,

00:24:03   or install Windows when it's connected to a laptop,

00:24:05   then use that same disk to boot the 5K iMac,

00:24:07   which has very different hardware.

00:24:09   And many Windows wrote in to tell us,

00:24:12   well, why did you ever think that would work?

00:24:14   And like I said on the program,

00:24:16   that's a bad idea for a variety of reasons,

00:24:18   but it's not just as Mac or Apple fans might think,

00:24:24   because OS X is better and Windows is crappy,

00:24:27   because OS X, as most Mac users know,

00:24:29   you can install that on a disconnected

00:24:31   to pretty much any computer and then plug it

00:24:32   into pretty much any other computer

00:24:34   and it boots that computer fine.

00:24:36   - Yeah, which one person wrote in to say,

00:24:38   "You know, OS X wouldn't work that way either."

00:24:40   And yeah, it actually does work that way

00:24:42   the vast majority of the time.

00:24:43   - I replied to the person that said, "Yeah, it does."

00:24:45   And here's the thing, all right, so this is all true.

00:24:48   It does work that way.

00:24:48   And if you're mostly a Mac user

00:24:50   or mostly recently a Mac user,

00:24:52   you might think that Windows worked the same way.

00:24:54   Like it's a reasonable mistake.

00:24:55   Not quite as reasonable for Marco

00:24:57   to spend a long time with Windows,

00:24:58   but still we'll set that aside.

00:25:00   But like I said, the reason OS X works that way

00:25:02   and Windows doesn't is not because Microsoft is dumb

00:25:05   and Apple is smart in this particular case.

00:25:07   It's because it's basically impossible

00:25:09   for Windows to do what OS X does.

00:25:11   OS X installs everything in its OS installation,

00:25:14   all the drivers, just everything on there, because why not?

00:25:17   It only supports a very limited range of hardware.

00:25:19   Apple knows every piece of hardware in every single machine

00:25:23   that is officially supported by its operating system.

00:25:25   and that set of hardware is small.

00:25:28   Windows can't take every driver for every machine

00:25:32   that Windows can possibly run on and install it

00:25:34   because your installation would be gigantic.

00:25:36   It's literally impossible.

00:25:38   There's too many drivers from too many different places.

00:25:40   They have to do a thing where they do

00:25:42   kind of like a custom install

00:25:44   for just the hardware that you have.

00:25:45   Now you might say that Windows could then,

00:25:47   after boot up time, be smarter about pulling down

00:25:49   new drivers on demand or whatever,

00:25:50   but anything involved in the boot process

00:25:52   or like getting the video driver to work

00:25:54   so your thing can even get to the point

00:25:55   where it's downloading stuff, it's very complicated.

00:25:57   Like basically, the option that Apple goes with

00:26:00   is not available to Microsoft.

00:26:02   They cannot say, we're just gonna install these same files

00:26:04   in every single Windows installation,

00:26:06   and then it'll boot every single computer.

00:26:08   So if you had thought about it for a little while,

00:26:10   even if you had no experience with Windows,

00:26:12   you would think, wait, they can't do the Apple thing,

00:26:15   which is kind of a shame,

00:26:16   and it's Microsoft's own fault

00:26:18   for having the business model

00:26:19   that brought them to massive dominance of the PC industry

00:26:22   for most of my entire life.

00:26:23   But here it is, a boomerang back around,

00:26:26   and it means that Marco can't get a game to work

00:26:28   in a timely fashion.

00:26:30   - All right, so, couple of very small updates to that story.

00:26:34   Basically, so most of the hatred for my actions

00:26:38   in this story, which again, was quite strong,

00:26:41   most of the hatred focused on a few key points.

00:26:44   Number one was I can't believe you expected that to work

00:26:47   by having an external drive installation

00:26:48   move between computers, as you covered just now.

00:26:51   Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have expected that to work.

00:26:53   I forgot how picky Windows was about drivers.

00:26:55   I haven't used Windows reliably,

00:26:56   or I haven't used Windows really at all in about 10 years.

00:27:00   And I haven't used it heavily in about 12 years.

00:27:02   So yeah.

00:27:03   - Well, and on that before you move on to the next thing,

00:27:05   there is a somewhat reasonable chance

00:27:08   that you could have thought that this would work

00:27:10   because you were of course installing the bootcamp drivers.

00:27:13   And the bootcamp drivers are in exactly the same situation

00:27:15   as like they only have to support

00:27:16   a limited amount of hardware.

00:27:18   So in theory, perhaps the bootcamp drivers,

00:27:21   had they been really good and comprehensive,

00:27:24   could have installed the full set of drivers

00:27:25   that would boot any boot camp capable machine,

00:27:27   but obviously they did not do that,

00:27:29   and we've heard from many people

00:27:30   that the boot camp drivers are a little bit old and creaky,

00:27:32   and have not kept up with the advancements in Windows,

00:27:35   which doesn't surprise me,

00:27:35   because Apple's support for boot camp

00:27:37   always seems kind of half-hearted

00:27:39   in the last, let's say, half decade.

00:27:41   - Right, but yeah, to be fair,

00:27:42   that is the assumption I made.

00:27:45   Secondly, the issue came up that

00:27:47   I did hit the skip activation thing,

00:27:50   like remind me later about activation and setup.

00:27:52   The reason why I hit that is not because I was being lazy,

00:27:55   and I forgot to mention this during the show,

00:27:56   it's because I knew, people had told me,

00:27:59   that if you activate on the external drive

00:28:01   and you plug it into a different computer,

00:28:02   it'll break the activation and you'll have to reactivate

00:28:05   by calling Microsoft or whatever the heck you have to do.

00:28:08   So I knew that was a risk, so I was waiting

00:28:10   until it was going to be on the computer

00:28:12   that the game was gonna be played on to activate.

00:28:14   So I was trying to get the whole thing set up on my laptop

00:28:17   so I wouldn't have to disturb Tiff's computer

00:28:19   and it's uptime because she was working on it.

00:28:22   So I was trying to get it all set up on my laptop first,

00:28:24   and then I was gonna move the drive over there,

00:28:25   activate it there so it wouldn't break, and then move on.

00:28:30   There's also ways that you can get like, you know,

00:28:31   pirate keys, volume license keys to get around all this,

00:28:34   but I was doing this legally, so you know,

00:28:36   I couldn't, I had to actually follow the

00:28:38   wonderfully abusive legitimate customer restrictions.

00:28:41   Thank you, thank you DRM. - You fooled you.

00:28:43   - Yeah. (laughs)

00:28:44   That's the penalty I get for doing things legally.

00:28:46   And finally, the argument that I was being unfair

00:28:51   to Windows and that Windows doesn't suck

00:28:53   and that I suck for saying that Windows is stupid,

00:28:57   I respectfully disagree.

00:28:59   Even though some of the things I did were not correct,

00:29:01   Windows is stupid and it does suck.

00:29:04   - I'm sure that will totally address that email.

00:29:07   - Yes. - Yeah, totally.

00:29:09   - Good counterargument. - Yes.

00:29:10   - That will summarize that in all caps by saying no you

00:29:15   with the O and the U transposed.

00:29:18   One more tidbit on Inside before we move on to Marco's fame and glory.

00:29:23   If you want to hear both me and Tiff talk about Inside, as played on both the Mac and

00:29:28   PS4, there will be an upcoming episode of The Incombrel that we are both on where we

00:29:31   discuss it, and I hope Marco was far away from the room when that was going on because

00:29:34   we spoiled the whole thing.

00:29:36   I actually, I went to the entire other side of the house just so I wouldn't overhear anything.

00:29:40   Good plan.

00:29:41   Anyway, play the game, then listen to The Incombrel.

00:29:42   We have a new sponsor this week. We are sponsored by Contentful. Contentful is a content management

00:29:48   developer platform that enables web and mobile developers to manage, integrate, and deliver

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00:31:22   - Today, no, was it yesterday?

00:31:28   Yesterday, I'm sorry.

00:31:30   The App Store made some news,

00:31:33   and then I think there was a little bit more today as well.

00:31:36   So yesterday, Apple has said that they're going to start removing old and busted apps

00:31:43   from the store.

00:31:44   That's my summary, but that's basically what it amounts to.

00:31:48   And they also said that the names of apps can no longer be something like "Tweetbot,"

00:31:54   a power user's Twitter client, or something like that.

00:31:57   Actually, they probably still would fit.

00:31:59   Well, you know what I mean.

00:32:00   So it has to be 50 characters or less.

00:32:03   And the idea is they don't want you gaming their piss-poor search by adding search keywords

00:32:10   and terms into your app title.

00:32:13   So they expect the app titles to be 50 characters or less.

00:32:17   Awesome.

00:32:18   This is great news.

00:32:19   I'm really pleased by this.

00:32:20   So I have nothing really, I have not much more to say.

00:32:24   I think FastText would have run afoul of this, most likely.

00:32:27   And to be honest, that's a good thing.

00:32:29   Yeah.

00:32:30   I mean, this is a very, very good thing in general.

00:32:32   I mean, if you look at, there are a little light

00:32:35   on the specifics of what they're going to prune out,

00:32:37   but basically it's like, if the app crashes on launch,

00:32:40   it'll be removed immediately.

00:32:42   So if you have some old app that no longer

00:32:44   literally doesn't even work, they're just pulling it

00:32:46   with no warning to the developer, just, oh well.

00:32:49   They're enforcing, basically, if there's any new rules

00:32:54   that weren't around when the app first passed app review,

00:32:57   but it is actually violating those rules,

00:32:59   then they are retroactively enforcing them.

00:33:01   So basically, it used to be that if you got through once,

00:33:05   or before the rule was in effect,

00:33:06   you could basically keep doing it forever,

00:33:09   and as long as you didn't update your app,

00:33:10   which is not a great system.

00:33:13   So they're kinda closing that loophole.

00:33:14   Now they're going to go back and re-review apps

00:33:18   under modern rules.

00:33:20   And if they no longer pass the rules,

00:33:23   'cause the rules have changed,

00:33:24   or something slipped through,

00:33:26   that they will now be enforcing that on those apps

00:33:29   and removing them if they have to.

00:33:30   And then the big thing, which I think is more interesting,

00:33:33   is basically, I forget exactly how they phrased it,

00:33:36   it's like, unmaintained or abandoned apps.

00:33:40   And so, they haven't said specifically what that means,

00:33:43   but what I assume that would mean are things like,

00:33:46   if you still don't have a 64-bit binary,

00:33:49   because I'm assuming part of the reason they're doing this

00:33:51   is to get the app store ready for a future version of iOS,

00:33:55   probably iOS 11 that doesn't have 32-bit support at all,

00:33:58   and won't launch 32-bit apps at all.

00:34:00   Things like if you still don't have retina support

00:34:03   or if you still don't have support

00:34:05   for the larger screens on the phones.

00:34:07   On the iPad, I'll be interested to see

00:34:09   how strict they will be,

00:34:11   'cause the iPad has a lot more challenges in this department.

00:34:15   iPads were non-retina for longer,

00:34:17   and a lot of iPad software got written

00:34:19   in the non-retina days and then never updated,

00:34:21   'cause it wasn't worth it to pay some consultants

00:34:23   to update your software or to rewrite games or whatever else.

00:34:26   I wonder like are they going to be as strict on the iPad?

00:34:29   You know the 12.9 inch iPad launched

00:34:34   and it's really crappy to use 9.7 inch apps

00:34:38   on the 12.9 inch iPad, especially if you have to use

00:34:41   the keyboard for any kind of text input.

00:34:42   The onscreen keyboard is horrible when it gets blown up.

00:34:46   So it'll be interesting to see like you know

00:34:47   basically how strictly they enforce that kind of

00:34:51   unmaintained and abandoned rule.

00:34:53   And if it applies, assuming it applies to things like

00:34:55   supporting new screen sizes and new modern builds

00:34:59   that include the right architecture and stuff like that,

00:35:00   but then basically how strict will they be

00:35:02   and what else will it include?

00:35:04   - I can't imagine them doing the screen size thing,

00:35:06   because I mean, unless they include other factors,

00:35:08   because I have apps from large multinational corporations

00:35:12   that are updated very frequently

00:35:14   that still don't support my iPhone 6's screen size.

00:35:18   You can tell from the slightly too big keyboard

00:35:20   and everything, and these are not abandoned.

00:35:22   These apps that are frequently updated,

00:35:24   Bugs are fixed, features are added, and yet they still don't support the screen size.

00:35:28   So I don't think that qualifies as abandoned, and I don't think Apple can, politically speaking,

00:35:34   pull apps like that under the guise of "we're cleaning out abandoned things."

00:35:37   The 64-bit, 32-bit, yeah.

00:35:39   Because that's coming no matter what anyway, and they're just laying the groundwork.

00:35:42   But screen size, I don't think, especially like, I think their definition of abandoned

00:35:46   has to be some set of those things plus also has not been updated in six months or a year

00:35:52   or something.

00:35:53   Maybe, but I don't know.

00:35:54   I mean, 'cause like, you know, some of these things

00:35:56   they can enforce at the iTunes Connect level.

00:35:58   So they could say, like, iTunes Connect no longer

00:36:01   accepts apps that are 32, but only which it probably

00:36:03   hasn't for, what, over a year now.

00:36:05   They could say things like iTunes Connect no longer support,

00:36:07   or no longer will allow you to submit an app

00:36:09   that doesn't support the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus screen sizes.

00:36:13   And then, six months after that, they can say,

00:36:15   well, if you don't support the screen sizes

00:36:17   and haven't updated your app in over six months,

00:36:20   you know, they can make a loophole if they want to.

00:36:23   and that is probably how some of these things will play out.

00:36:25   But I mean, one thing, like, you know,

00:36:27   most apps that do that, like,

00:36:28   if they're still getting updates,

00:36:29   like, actually the official Tesla app is one of these apps,

00:36:33   where the Tesla app is, it gets updates,

00:36:36   like, every few months, but it still doesn't support

00:36:39   the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus screen sizes.

00:36:42   Like, it has the modern keyboard and everything,

00:36:43   but it's still just not supporting larger screens,

00:36:46   'cause like, it's all like pixel perfect

00:36:48   iOS 6 style designed, and I assume they don't wanna, like,

00:36:51   back and pay somebody to redesign it to blow it up and everything, but that's kind of

00:36:56   crappy. If they can use this to push companies to update their ancient broken apps that they're

00:37:04   basically just not updating out of laziness or not moving to modern stuff because of laziness

00:37:09   or just not wanting to allocate the funds for it, this is probably a good thing. It's

00:37:12   definitely a good thing for users. For developers who are in the consulting business, it is

00:37:17   is almost certainly a good thing,

00:37:18   because this is probably going to be

00:37:21   a big boon to consulting,

00:37:23   because all these companies that have

00:37:25   all these ancient iPhone and iPad apps,

00:37:27   they didn't really have any kind of push before

00:37:30   to wanna put more money into them,

00:37:32   but now they're going to have a big push

00:37:34   if Apple says, "You need to update this to support X,

00:37:36   "or we're gonna pull you out of the App Store in 30 days."

00:37:38   - I still think the vast majority of this

00:37:40   is gonna be cleaning out the crap

00:37:41   that no one has looked at in forever,

00:37:43   that it also isn't making any more money.

00:37:45   So I think the vast majority of the garbage

00:37:47   just crap that was released once, never updated,

00:37:50   stopped making money three and a half years ago,

00:37:53   and it's just in the store.

00:37:54   And the meta story about this,

00:37:56   as everyone who has written anything about it

00:37:57   has pointed out, and as I think is obvious

00:37:59   to everybody looking at it,

00:38:00   is this marks the end of the era

00:38:02   when Apple is touting the number of applications

00:38:05   in the App Store as their prime measure

00:38:07   of how awesome they're doing.

00:38:08   It's like, I mean, they should have stopped this long ago,

00:38:10   'cause as I think we've all talked about

00:38:12   on past programs over the years,

00:38:14   once you get into the hundreds of thousands or millions,

00:38:16   the number of apps you have in the App Store

00:38:18   is a detriment to the user experience, not a boon.

00:38:22   So, you know, 'cause it's just,

00:38:24   especially when your search is horrendous, Apple.

00:38:27   But yeah, so like, the App Store is better

00:38:30   if they delete several hundred thousand crap apps.

00:38:33   - That's exactly the thing.

00:38:34   I mean, like, the search is a massive angle to this.

00:38:36   Like, you know, so the other side,

00:38:38   you know, as we said at first,

00:38:39   like, they're prohibiting spamming your app with keywords

00:38:42   that are not related to what it does,

00:38:44   and they're setting a cap on 50 characters now.

00:38:47   I don't know what the cap was before,

00:38:48   but I've seen some pretty long app titles that are,

00:38:51   it's basically like four sentences after the first word

00:38:54   of describing all the things it does

00:38:55   and mentioning every big app.

00:38:56   Like, oh, this works for Instagram and Twitter,

00:38:58   you know, all the spammers.

00:38:59   But a lot of this, these things wouldn't be

00:39:03   as big of a problem in the app store

00:39:05   if the search was better.

00:39:06   And so a lot of critics have pointed out, rightly so,

00:39:09   that these things are nice, but if you just fix the search--

00:39:13   - It would solve itself, yeah, 'cause the web

00:39:15   is full of crap too, but Google manages to find stuff on it.

00:39:17   - Exactly, so it is kind of, I mean, on one hand,

00:39:21   it's a little bit frustrating that Apple is kind of

00:39:24   jumping through hoops to do things that

00:39:26   better search would alleviate.

00:39:27   On the other hand, it seems pretty clear that--

00:39:30   - Better search is not coming.

00:39:31   - Yeah, that Apple just isn't very good at search,

00:39:35   especially on whoever manages App Store search,

00:39:37   like, whatever they're doing over there,

00:39:39   whatever methods and algorithms they're using,

00:39:41   they just can't seem to pull together a really good search.

00:39:44   And so if it's not going to happen,

00:39:46   then you might as well do things around it

00:39:48   to alleviate how crappy it is for people.

00:39:52   - Well, they should do both.

00:39:52   I'm assuming they are doing both,

00:39:54   but this is the easy first thing to do.

00:39:56   It really is a benefit to,

00:39:58   the App Store is not the web.

00:40:00   I just mentioned the web,

00:40:01   the web is just full of crap and the magic.

00:40:03   For Google, it finds out the pages

00:40:04   that are actually worth you finding,

00:40:05   even though millions and millions of pages

00:40:08   match whatever you type into the search box,

00:40:09   they find the one that is the best match,

00:40:11   meaning not just a spammy abandonware, you know, like,

00:40:14   but Google doesn't control the web entirely yet.

00:40:17   They can't clean out, they can't clean out the crappy web pages.

00:40:24   But the whole idea behind the App Store,

00:40:26   if you had read any story about the App Store

00:40:28   in the first few years,

00:40:30   your chances of seeing the word "curated" in the article

00:40:32   were very, very high.

00:40:34   And what Apple has done with the App Store

00:40:39   does not really fit any reasonable definition of curated,

00:40:42   because if you were curating any kind of collection

00:40:45   of anything, you just wouldn't allow this kind of crap

00:40:48   to A, enter it in the first place,

00:40:50   which they've been getting better about,

00:40:51   hey, we don't need any more fart apps,

00:40:52   remember that era, right?

00:40:54   And B, you wouldn't let it sit there.

00:40:56   Curating means realizing that there is 300,000 applications

00:41:00   that crash on launch that haven't been downloaded

00:41:01   in several years, except for by poor unsuspecting people

00:41:04   who get bad results from your terrible search, right?

00:41:07   Curating means you've got to clean that crap out.

00:41:09   And yes, they should make search better,

00:41:11   but you should also do this.

00:41:12   Otherwise don't pretend that you're really curating.

00:41:14   All you're really doing is exerting control,

00:41:17   but you don't care about the state of the collection.

00:41:19   All you care about is like the gate.

00:41:21   Like we don't want to let any apps in

00:41:22   that violate our current set of arbitrary rules,

00:41:25   but once they're in, whatever,

00:41:27   we don't curate the collection, we just curate the door.

00:41:29   You know, we're just the bouncer,

00:41:30   but once you get in, you can die on the floor

00:41:33   and slowly decompose and we won't even look at you.

00:41:36   (laughing)

00:41:37   - That analogy got a little grim in the end, but--

00:41:39   - Yeah, a little bit.

00:41:40   (laughing)

00:41:42   - Oh goodness.

00:41:43   And then Apple has also updated their

00:41:46   official review guidelines, I guess is what happened,

00:41:49   and they've made some clarifications about subscriptions

00:41:52   with which is interesting to several people.

00:41:55   And Marco, you caught wind of this.

00:41:57   - Yeah, I mean a lot of people did.

00:41:59   There's a lot of sites now that basically provide diffs

00:42:02   for like any time Apple changes their review guidelines,

00:42:04   there's sites now that will just tell you,

00:42:06   like, here's what changed.

00:42:06   It will even alert you, sometimes they'll email you,

00:42:09   or they'll tweet about it.

00:42:10   It's pretty great services.

00:42:12   So anyway, everyone immediately notices that,

00:42:14   oh, the review guidelines have had some modifications,

00:42:17   and some of it is simple, expected stuff

00:42:20   to things like sticker pack rules

00:42:23   for the upcoming iOS 10 launch.

00:42:25   It's probably happening probably next week,

00:42:27   or sometime very soon.

00:42:29   And so that's cool.

00:42:31   But then they also basically clarified

00:42:33   the auto renewing subscription rules a little bit.

00:42:36   'Cause as we learned early in the summer right before

00:42:38   WWDC, they announced they were bringing subscriptions,

00:42:41   basically allowing them for all categories of apps,

00:42:43   not just publications anymore.

00:42:46   And it was kind of left vague and unstated,

00:42:51   and then later slightly clarified by Phil Schiller

00:42:53   on the talk show live actually, WWDC,

00:42:56   about could productivity apps just charge a subscription

00:43:01   for updates and basically could you charge a subscription

00:43:05   for just using the app instead of content

00:43:09   that was being delivered or a web service or anything else.

00:43:12   And that was left unspecified and vague

00:43:15   until yesterday when they basically said,

00:43:18   I forget exactly what they said,

00:43:19   but it was a list of things that would be

00:43:22   most likely permitted and they're still

00:43:24   a little noncommittal and basically it's like

00:43:26   you have to basically submit and try,

00:43:28   but it was always that way.

00:43:29   But one of the things in the list of examples

00:43:31   that would be permitted was apps that have frequent

00:43:36   and substantial updates.

00:43:37   - Close, so close.

00:43:38   If only there were a way for you to know

00:43:40   what that rule said.

00:43:42   - Yeah, if only I would have done some homework.

00:43:45   - Casey and I are both staring at it, as you say.

00:43:47   There's no way to really know what was said exactly,

00:43:49   but if it had been in the notes

00:43:51   and somehow put into bold text--

00:43:53   - Oh, there it is, look at that.

00:43:54   - And you would know exactly which part

00:43:55   you should look at.

00:43:57   - Just had to change tabs.

00:43:58   We're still in follow-up?

00:43:59   - Yes.

00:44:00   No, this should have been moved.

00:44:01   move now. This was before the second part of the story came out about the, you know, 50 character

00:44:06   limit and the whatever. Like, so anyway, this would have been a follow up on because we were

00:44:10   all, at least I was, remember being very angry about this rule because the written rule and what

00:44:16   Phil said seemed to be at odds and it was like, just make it clear. Like, it doesn't really matter

00:44:20   what Phil Schiller says because you can't submit your app and then say, well, Phil Schiller said

00:44:23   that this thing I saw at WWDC. Like, that's not how rules work. You have to, like, if you're writing

00:44:28   rules make them as clear as you possibly can and it was frustrating to me that it didn't seem like

00:44:33   Apple had its act together and we were questioning like does that mean that if you make an application

00:44:38   for like a productivity app or whatever and you just offer updates every year or so like major

00:44:44   updates can you make a subscription to that or not that's what we all wanted to know and the

00:44:48   clarification and the exact words of the type of things that can allow for the subscription pricing

00:44:53   or apps that offer consistent substantive updates, which is not particularly precise,

00:45:00   but it clearly lays out you don't need to have new game levels or episodic content or

00:45:06   anything like that, just consistent support, consistent updates and substantive updates.

00:45:11   So that's still open to interpretation, but it doesn't say anything about you being a

00:45:15   media app, anything about you being a game, anything about you having like a magazine

00:45:20   issues or new content, it just merely says you gotta update it, because it's gotta be consistent,

00:45:26   and there has to be something in them. They have to be like not just, "Oh, I added one tiny little

00:45:30   tweak here, one new preference," right? And so I think that's what people want. They just wanted

00:45:35   clearance for like, "Okay, if I think..." and then it's just arguing over what counts as a substantive

00:45:40   update. And I think if people do a 2.0, and it's got like... If you did a 2.0 and it includes

00:45:45   streaming, you'd win that argument with any reasonable person if you were allowed to have it

00:45:48   to say, "That's a substantial update. This is a major feature, major new capabilities."

00:45:53   And if you had a subscription pricing to overcast, 1.0 didn't have streaming and 2.0 did, I think

00:45:57   everybody, including Apple, would be all thumbs up on that. And that's all we were looking

00:46:01   for back when this rule came out, just to understand the scope of subscription, and

00:46:06   then we can just argue about the details.

00:46:07   Right. And it still is going to be like, you still have to submit kind of blindly and just

00:46:13   hope they allow you to do it. But this at least gives you a pretty good indication that

00:46:18   Like, if you're using this responsibly, they will probably allow it.

00:46:22   You can start development.

00:46:23   Like, that's the best thing about it.

00:46:24   It's like, before you didn't even know whether it was worthwhile to start developing.

00:46:26   Now you can start development.

00:46:27   I feel like if you get rejected, they can say, "Oh, that's not a substantial enough

00:46:31   update."

00:46:32   And you can say, "Okay, well, I'll just work more and add more features."

00:46:34   And presumably at some point you could say, "Now this surely is worthy of a substantial

00:46:38   update."

00:46:39   And now, you know, of course, if you take too long, then your updates are no longer

00:46:42   consistent.

00:46:43   But I feel like this gives people the cover they need to begin development, which is all

00:46:47   anyone really wants to know. Like, am I wasting my time entirely on this? Or if I'm acting

00:46:51   in good faith with my understanding of how this works, the language is now on the same

00:46:55   page with what Phil Schiller said, and I feel like it should make everybody relax and feel

00:46:59   better, he says foolishly before everyone gets rejected for major updates. But we'll

00:47:03   see how this works out.

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00:49:01   Jon posted a week ago a collection of scans, I presume, or perhaps pictures of old artwork

00:49:08   that he had done, generally speaking, as a kid.

00:49:11   I found this fascinating, and we'll put links to all these pieces in the show notes.

00:49:15   Basically, it was on Jon's Instagram account, profile, whatever you call it.

00:49:20   I had known, Jon, that you fancied yourself a bit of an artist when you were a kid, and

00:49:25   And I thought that meant that your artistic skills were better than just stick figures,

00:49:32   which puts you ahead of almost everyone I know.

00:49:35   Then I see all these pictures and I realized, holy crap!

00:49:39   I don't know if you knew this, but you could like really, really draw really, really well.

00:49:42   Yeah, they were really good.

00:49:44   So FYI, that's the thing.

00:49:45   It's like you don't read anything that I write.

00:49:47   It's like the first hypercritical thing that I wrote.

00:49:49   What's the first line of that?

00:49:50   It's a Goodfellas reference even.

00:49:52   It's a double whammy.

00:49:54   - Well, look, we knew from following you and reading

00:49:57   and listening to your stuff, we knew that you used to be

00:50:00   some kind of artist, but we didn't know like the degree

00:50:04   or what you drew really.

00:50:06   All we knew is that you had said that you had done it

00:50:08   for a while and you were too critical about it

00:50:11   and you couldn't get over how critical you were

00:50:13   of your own work.

00:50:13   - No, you gotta reread that to understand.

00:50:16   - Yeah, probably.

00:50:17   - The point of that thing was, yes, in the beginning

00:50:20   was as far back as I can remember, blah, blah, blah.

00:50:24   I was told I wanted to grow up to be an artist.

00:50:25   And then you read the whole thing,

00:50:26   you realize, why didn't I do that?

00:50:28   It's because my actual skill wasn't artistic talent,

00:50:32   which is why I didn't pursue it.

00:50:32   My actual skill was being able to draw something

00:50:35   and look at it and know what was wrong with it.

00:50:36   And then you just fix it and you just repeat that process.

00:50:38   And if you just keep repeating it,

00:50:39   the picture gets better and better the longer you work on it.

00:50:41   But that's not how real artists work.

00:50:44   Well, kinda how they work.

00:50:45   But anyway, I realized my own limitations.

00:50:48   - In all fairness, you have made a very good living

00:50:50   by being a complainer professionally.

00:50:52   (laughing)

00:50:53   - Exactly, if you're gonna look at,

00:50:55   where are you gonna make more money?

00:50:56   Drawing pictures that, drawing copies

00:50:58   of other people's pictures or complaining about stuff.

00:51:00   Apparently complaining about stuff is much more lucrative.

00:51:02   - Well, if you're good at it

00:51:03   and you are really good at complaining about stuff.

00:51:05   - A lot of practice.

00:51:07   - To be good at complaining about stuff,

00:51:09   you can't just complain a lot about it.

00:51:11   You have to be able to complain well about it.

00:51:13   And that's where, like, you are so good at complaining well.

00:51:17   Anybody can complain, I complain all the time,

00:51:19   but I'm not nearly as good at it as you.

00:51:20   Are you a professional, top-notch,

00:51:23   like world-class complainer about anything?

00:51:25   - You need to get the practice to, I messed it up,

00:51:28   complaining Carnegie Hall, practice kid.

00:51:31   - Well. - You don't even know

00:51:33   that saying?

00:51:34   I mangled it too much, it was unrecognizable.

00:51:35   I apologize, I'm an old man.

00:51:37   (laughing)

00:51:40   - Oh my goodness, so anyway, I didn't,

00:51:42   I don't have too much more to say about these

00:51:45   other than I genuinely, genuinely was dumbfounded

00:51:50   at how good they were, 'cause I expected it to be like,

00:51:54   you know, stick figures plus plus, if you will,

00:51:57   and that's not a new Underscore app.

00:51:58   What I mean by that is, you know, just the next level.

00:52:00   - Not yet anyway. - Yeah, not yet anyway.

00:52:03   - I would love to see that app, actually.

00:52:04   - That would be pretty awesome.

00:52:06   It'll be like Pinpoint/Bugshot,

00:52:10   but with Underscore spin on it.

00:52:12   Yeah, so I thought it was just gonna be like

00:52:14   better than your average 12 or 15 year old or what have you.

00:52:18   But which I guess, yes, this was,

00:52:20   but these were like way better than your average

00:52:23   12 to 15 year old.

00:52:25   I remember vividly when I was, I don't know,

00:52:28   in like second or third grade,

00:52:29   which is younger than what we're talking about,

00:52:31   I had freehand drawn a picture of Garfield the cat

00:52:35   and done, if I may say so,

00:52:38   an extraordinarily impressive job of it.

00:52:40   This is my crowning achievement as an artist.

00:52:42   In fact, it's pretty much my only achievement as an artist.

00:52:46   And I would show all my classmates as a first or second grader what this was, and they would

00:52:51   all be like, "Oh, you just trace that.

00:52:54   And how do you fix this problem when you're in first or second grade?

00:52:57   And I've got to have this somewhere, but it'll take me 10 years to dig it up."

00:53:01   What I did to fix this problem of, "Oh, you just trace that," is I wrote in big, very

00:53:06   thick letters in all caps, "I did not trace this," next to the picture of Garfield.

00:53:10   That's a great artist put on their things actually if you look it's there and it's very fine print

00:53:14   but anyway

00:53:16   I was stunned by how good these were and and I and I'm really really genuinely impressed by them and and I

00:53:23   Want to see more of them so find some more and post them if you put them a matic

00:53:27   It's full of this crap

00:53:28   But uh yeah

00:53:28   No

00:53:28   like like I said in the hyper critical to see the secret all this stuff is

00:53:32   First of all as I stated and I think every single description on Instagram for these things

00:53:35   almost all these things are

00:53:39   from another like direct copies of a painting or a

00:53:43   poster or something

00:53:45   That was you know, probably on my wall from some thing

00:53:48   Like I didn't do the these aren't originals, right?

00:53:50   Even the ones that are just of random people are taken from like people from magazines or a composite of pictures and magazines

00:53:55   but most of them are just

00:53:58   exactly direct copies and all you need to make a

00:54:01   Perfect copy of like a cool poster or painting or a book cover or something else, you know

00:54:06   I was into all these fantasy book series or whatever, and I got these calendars with the big posters and stuff.

00:54:10   All you need to be able to make an amazing copy of what is already an amazing piece of art is the ability to know

00:54:17   when you've drawn something, have I drawn it like that thing over there, or have I messed it up in some way?

00:54:23   And that's it, right? And you just repeat that process and eventually you end up with

00:54:27   essentially a larger version of the book cover that you were copying the whole time. And the barrier most people have to doing that is

00:54:36   somewhat artistic ability, but mostly they will draw what they think is they see in the book cover and

00:54:41   then they will look down at the book cover and look down at what they've drawn on their giant poster sized piece of paper and

00:54:46   think yeah, that's about right and let us continue and if you do that repeatedly you end up with this terrible misshapen blob that only

00:54:53   looks vaguely like what was in the book cover and it doesn't look good.

00:54:55   So you gotta draw what's actually on the book cover. You have to know when you've drawn something

00:54:59   you know too big too small at the wrong angle

00:55:03   And then you too, if you have this one particular skill, can essentially make an amazing copy of

00:55:08   some other artist piece of work and get all the credit for making this great picture.

00:55:13   I mean most of the people who looked at this who know the the Dragonlance series

00:55:17   recognize these pictures because they're famous pictures from that series made by amazing

00:55:21   actual artists and they drew it from whole cloth from their head because they're actual artists. I was merely a very skilled mimic.

00:55:30   Well regardless of what you think you were and whether or not you think you were good I

00:55:34   Was and remain extremely impressed. I was good for my age

00:55:39   That's why I put most of these with obvious like as I get older it gets less impressive to do something like this when you're 18

00:55:43   But you do it when you're 13 you're like it's pretty good for a 13 year old even a 13 year old mimic

00:55:47   I did have some other originals and you've seen my crappy paintings that are around the house

00:55:50   I mean painting is obviously much harder

00:55:52   But they're from a similar time period when I'm like late single-digit ages or like getting close into my teens

00:55:58   But yeah, no, these have sentimental value because I had these things all over my walls for my childhood bedroom

00:56:05   So I was just happy to find them in the attic and have them all be intact and like, you know what?

00:56:10   I should record these because who knows what will happen to them in the future. Now, I've got them in digital form

00:56:14   Yep, real-time follow-up from my buddy Spencer

00:56:18   It appears that it is about 10 minutes per meg and a half of MP3 data if you really really really

00:56:27   Break it down. Well, that's using the HE AAC format. Thank you. Yes and

00:56:32   pretty well compressed so our dream of issuing an episode of

00:56:37   ATP on 17 floppy disks might actually be reasonably possible

00:56:40   Indeed

00:56:45   The theme songs gonna sound like crap

00:56:47   Yes, then you have to find someplace to buy floppy disks in bulk and a door and a drive to write the ball

00:56:53   I've got you covered there. Oh, yeah, I

00:56:56   I actually might have a USB floppy drive

00:56:59   around here somewhere.

00:57:00   I did have one very recently,

00:57:01   and I don't know what I did with it,

00:57:03   but I might be able to help out.

00:57:05   Regardless, iCloud storage has a new option now.

00:57:09   There's now two terabytes for 20 bucks a month.

00:57:12   That's cool, I guess.

00:57:13   - Yeah, before it was, it would cap out at one terabyte,

00:57:15   and that's actually the plan that Tiff and I have

00:57:18   for our giant photo libraries, and that's nice.

00:57:21   However, before, if you needed more than one terabyte,

00:57:24   probably for photos, you basically just couldn't.

00:57:26   There was no option.

00:57:28   Now there is, now you can go to two terabytes,

00:57:30   which is nice.

00:57:31   Twice the money, twice the space, okay.

00:57:33   Still, I think it's not insanely competitive

00:57:37   on that pricing, but it's not too terrible

00:57:39   and it's nice to have the option.

00:57:41   - Yeah, as you pointed out, if you don't have the option,

00:57:43   you just feel terrible.

00:57:44   My brother was in this situation with his photo library.

00:57:46   He has a similar size Sony camera to me,

00:57:49   but he got his many years ago and he has multiple kids

00:57:51   and he shoots everything in RAW.

00:57:53   And he was over a terabyte.

00:57:54   I was like, "How can you be over a terabyte?

00:57:57   Your oldest kid is like three, but he takes a lot of pictures, and then RAWs are really

00:58:00   big."

00:58:01   But anyway, he was over a terabyte, so he couldn't use the iCloud Photos library.

00:58:06   And he just had to find other ways to back up his stuff.

00:58:10   And it was like, "Jesus, kind of a shame."

00:58:12   There's no amount of money he could give to Apple to say, "Please, just take my photos."

00:58:16   And now, finally, they offer a two-terabyte option.

00:58:18   So I excitedly sent him an iMessage to say, "Hey, you can finally upload your photo library."

00:58:22   No, after the summer I'm over two terabytes too.

00:58:25   - My solution is actually very simple.

00:58:27   - Delete photos.

00:58:29   - Anything that is being shot by a real camera

00:58:32   first goes into Lightroom.

00:58:34   And Lightroom is where I do all the picking,

00:58:36   all the editing, then when I'm done with processing an event

00:58:41   I export all those as very high quality JPEGs

00:58:44   into Photos app.

00:58:46   'Cause basically RAW never goes into photos

00:58:50   because Lightroom is better at it, first of all,

00:58:52   and also just for that, for again, these space reasons

00:58:55   of syncing these to all the devices,

00:58:57   even thumbnail or not, and then speed,

00:59:00   and then catalog size, and iCloud limits of space like this,

00:59:03   so that kind of system is much more cumbersome,

00:59:07   but does result in a way better photo experience,

00:59:10   with the bonus that when I import an event into photos,

00:59:14   because I've already picked all the crappy photos out

00:59:17   and have only exported perfectly processed awesome ones,

00:59:20   it looks like it does in Apple commercials and demos,

00:59:22   where all the pictures are perfect.

00:59:25   'Cause normally, if you look at my raw Lightroom library,

00:59:28   before everything gets picked through and edited,

00:59:31   you have a million pictures of the same thing

00:59:33   where I was trying to get exactly the right shot,

00:59:35   half these are blurry or mis-exposed or whatever else,

00:59:38   and it does not look anything like the Apple commercials.

00:59:41   But my photos library actually looks pretty close

00:59:43   a lot of the time because it is only

00:59:45   receiving the edited ones.

00:59:46   - This is another example where it seems like Apple

00:59:48   doesn't quite understand how at least some set

00:59:50   of its users use its products.

00:59:53   Like, because I think everybody who is even remotely

00:59:55   into photography or has kids and likes to take pictures

00:59:58   of them ends up with exactly like you said,

00:59:59   a photo library filled with tons of pictures.

01:00:02   Some of them are just a mess.

01:00:03   And then in the good ones, there's like,

01:00:05   it's not like you're in, even if you're not in burst mode,

01:00:07   you take 50 pictures of the kid blowing out the candles

01:00:10   to try to get the one shot, right?

01:00:12   Everybody does that.

01:00:12   That's how you take, that's the secret to photography,

01:00:14   is take a ton of pictures.

01:00:15   then hopefully you'll find one good one out of a thousand,

01:00:18   and eventually if you're really good,

01:00:19   one good one out of 500, right?

01:00:21   But you still have all those pictures,

01:00:23   and I guess the smart thing to do

01:00:24   is to delete the other ones,

01:00:25   but if you have any sort of pack rat tendencies,

01:00:28   you're like, well, even though these aren't the best picture

01:00:30   maybe someday I'll wanna look back on the one

01:00:33   where they make a funny face or whatever, you know?

01:00:34   You don't wanna, like, there's the really excellent pictures

01:00:37   that they graduate to could appear in an Apple ad,

01:00:40   but there's kind of mediocre ones that are still endearing.

01:00:42   Like I have lots of pictures of my kids making funny faces

01:00:44   that you'd never see in an app land,

01:00:46   or maybe it's even a little bit out of focus

01:00:48   as they were running out of the frame,

01:00:49   but it's like a funny scene or something.

01:00:51   I don't want to delete those, right?

01:00:52   But you do want to have a photo library

01:00:55   that is just the good ones.

01:00:56   I do that with the favorites feature,

01:00:58   which is putting the hearts in them or whatever.

01:00:59   But imagine if they had something

01:01:01   that supported Marco's workflow,

01:01:02   which I would do if it was all within one app,

01:01:04   which is upload the RAWs, go through them, sort them out,

01:01:08   pick the ones that you really like, do the adjustments,

01:01:10   burn down to JPEG, and then hide everything

01:01:13   and it doesn't make the cut.

01:01:15   I guess they would still be forced to allow you

01:01:17   to upload everything for backup purposes,

01:01:19   but it would sure make browsing a lot easier

01:01:22   if you didn't have to choose between delete forever

01:01:25   and ever and ever, and mostly don't show those.

01:01:27   And I know they have the ability to hide pictures,

01:01:29   and again, they have favoriting and stuff like that,

01:01:31   so they kind of give a hybrid solution,

01:01:33   but the fact that Marco has to use two apps

01:01:35   to do what I think is a very reasonable workflow

01:01:37   is kind of a shame.

01:01:39   And the two terabyte option for 20 bucks,

01:01:40   like Apple. I know not a lot of people do this, but technologically speaking, and financially

01:01:48   speaking and business practice speaking, it's not that much harder to offer three terabytes

01:01:52   for 30 and four terabytes for 40. I can keep going with this crazy sequence. And like,

01:01:58   I don't know how much your storage costs. Hell, put it on a different curve that's not

01:02:02   linear. But either way, like, I bet there are people out there, I know one of them,

01:02:07   with libraries that are bigger than two terabytes,

01:02:09   and they will pay you more money for more storage.

01:02:12   I know that's weird sounding, but it will happen.

01:02:14   So it would be great if Apple didn't wait another two years

01:02:17   before they offered the three terabyte option.

01:02:19   For more money, for more money, Apple.

01:02:21   - Well, and I don't see my two app solution

01:02:25   changing anytime soon, because for this to change

01:02:28   realistically anytime soon, you would either need

01:02:32   the Photos app to really have more pro-style editing

01:02:36   controls and mechanics and workflows possible,

01:02:39   which it really still doesn't.

01:02:40   It is better than iPhoto used to be,

01:02:43   but not good enough for really pro editing.

01:02:47   And it seems like Apple is also not very interested

01:02:50   in making it so.

01:02:52   Or you'd have to have Lightroom get a lot better

01:02:55   at cloud stuff.

01:02:57   And given Adobe's history there,

01:02:59   they've tried a Lightroom-like or directly Lightroom

01:03:03   cloud service something like three or four times by now,

01:03:06   and they've all had really big flaws

01:03:08   and really big problems.

01:03:09   So I think both of those are unlikely to be solved

01:03:12   in the foreseeable future, so this is left undone

01:03:16   and I will be using two apps for a very long time,

01:03:18   as probably a lot of other people do.

01:03:20   Or they just put everything in Lightroom

01:03:21   and don't touch photos.

01:03:23   - Fair enough.

01:03:24   We still have predictions for next week's event to cover,

01:03:28   but there's been a big brouhaha about tax stuff

01:03:32   Apple in Ireland and we should attempt to briefly cover it. Kids, this is when you look at the time

01:03:40   count and see exactly how long this chapter lasts. So the short, short version, which was actually

01:03:47   summarized really, really well in a Vox article that we'll have in the show notes or an article

01:03:51   on Vox, I should say. The short, short version, as I understand it, is the European Union, which

01:03:58   has some amount of governing power in general over Ireland as a member of the European Union,

01:04:03   although they have no power over Ireland's taxing rules and situation, has come to the conclusion

01:04:11   that Apple and Ireland have some sort of backroom deal that is beneficial to Apple, and that's

01:04:17   against the non-competitive rules of the European Union. So guess what? Apple owes somebody, I guess

01:04:23   Ireland owes Ireland 13 billion euros, something to that effect. Interestingly, well, uninterestingly,

01:04:31   Apple says no freaking way. But interestingly, Ireland is saying no freaking way, which you

01:04:38   would think here it is, they are setting, they are set up, they are alley-ooped, that's

01:04:44   a basketball thing, Marco. They have been given the alley-oop for 13 billion euros.

01:04:51   And they're saying, "No, thank you."

01:04:53   And it appears that the best in—well, the super simple explanation for that is they

01:05:00   don't want to appear unfriendly to the many corporations that have based their European

01:05:05   operations out of Ireland, because Ireland is the Delaware of Europe for Americans.

01:05:14   And so that's the extraordinarily abridged summary.

01:05:19   My two cents on it, I don't feel like Apple has done anything wrong, but I also am not

01:05:24   so sure that these laws, I'm not so sure these laws are really correct as written.

01:05:29   I think both the American laws about money earned elsewhere and repatriating that money

01:05:35   seem kind of backwards and messed up.

01:05:37   The Irish laws, from an outsider's point of view, seem like maybe they should be a little

01:05:42   more aggressive on collecting taxes.

01:05:44   But from what little I've read on this, and admittedly it has not been a lot, it doesn't

01:05:49   feel to me like Apple has done very much wrong, they just haven't exactly been forthcoming

01:05:53   with stuff that maybe morally they should have paid even if legally they didn't have

01:05:57   to. So Marco, it appears you have some thoughts on this. Go ahead.

01:06:01   - I'll make mine quick because the more I learn about this, the less I have to say about

01:06:05   it basically because it's very complicated. And it is, there's multiple sides of this.

01:06:11   I think the, there's like the European politics side of it, which, that's politics, you know.

01:06:19   Who cares, it isn't really a tech topic.

01:06:21   Then there's the US basically tax haven side of it

01:06:26   where you have companies that if they divert

01:06:30   all their international sales to international subsidiaries

01:06:34   and don't bring the cash back into the US,

01:06:36   they basically can pay no US tax on it.

01:06:39   So Tim Cook is going around basically like,

01:06:42   obviously taking advantage of all these same things

01:06:44   that most big companies do.

01:06:47   And I think they are honestly morally a little tricky

01:06:51   or worse, but that is what's legal.

01:06:56   And so there are these giant loopholes and workarounds

01:07:00   in our tax code that allow big companies to do this.

01:07:04   So the big companies do it.

01:07:05   Tim Cook as the CEO is basically responsible

01:07:10   for doing this.

01:07:11   Like if he didn't do stuff like this,

01:07:12   if Apple didn't use all the same tax saving schemes

01:07:17   as other big companies do that are perfectly legal,

01:07:20   at least in the US,

01:07:21   ignoring the European politics side of this for now,

01:07:24   if Apple didn't do all the same things,

01:07:26   the shareholders would have Tim Cook's head

01:07:28   because he'd be basically throwing away billions of dollars.

01:07:31   So basically, as long as these things continue to be

01:07:35   the legal way to do things in the US

01:07:37   that all other big companies do,

01:07:38   Apple has to do them as well.

01:07:40   Otherwise, Tim Cook would be fired or sued.

01:07:42   So, you know, they have to do it.

01:07:45   However, I don't believe that they have to do

01:07:49   as much campaigning as Tim Cook does

01:07:52   about how the US must change its tax code

01:07:56   to basically give them a huge tax break

01:07:59   to bring that money back in.

01:08:01   'Cause so the whole, the summary of this basically

01:08:04   is that if you keep the money offshore,

01:08:05   you don't have to pay US tax.

01:08:06   If you bring it back into the US

01:08:08   from your international subsidiaries,

01:08:10   you have to pay US tax on it,

01:08:11   minus whatever you paid in foreign tax.

01:08:13   So the idea is you don't have to end up paying double tax,

01:08:17   you just have to pay at least the US tax.

01:08:20   And if the foreign tax is higher,

01:08:21   that's your deal with the foreign government to handle.

01:08:24   But if you end up, like you have to pay something.

01:08:27   And Apple basically is paying no tax

01:08:29   on all their European earnings.

01:08:31   So that's the high level overview.

01:08:34   I apologize if I got into these details wrong.

01:08:36   And Tim Cook is going around in all these public statements

01:08:39   and things basically campaigning Washington

01:08:43   and the public to support him in this effort

01:08:45   to have corporate tax reform to let them bring in

01:08:49   this international money into the US at a,

01:08:51   what appears to be the goal

01:08:54   of a substantially reduced tax rate.

01:08:56   And me, as a person who makes money worldwide

01:09:00   but pays all my taxes in the great state of New York,

01:09:02   I think that's BS.

01:09:04   I think if the companies can do all these little tricks

01:09:09   stuff by basically applying lots of accountants and lawyers

01:09:13   and loopholes to save themselves billions of dollars.

01:09:16   Well, I hope the government fixes that,

01:09:18   'cause that seems like a poor allocation of the tax burden.

01:09:23   But for Tim Cook personally, to use the same level

01:09:28   of energy that he was using for the FBI fight

01:09:31   for our privacy, to basically try to have that same energy

01:09:35   being spent on, I demand that we be able to bring our money

01:09:39   back into the US and to get a discount on our taxes?

01:09:42   No, that's not morally defensible, it's just not.

01:09:47   So I don't support Tim Cook in that.

01:09:50   I think, yeah, if they wanna do the same loopholes, fine,

01:09:53   but don't go complaining in public

01:09:57   that the US needs to allow you to bring your money back in

01:10:00   and not pay your share of taxes on it.

01:10:01   No, you should pay your taxes

01:10:03   the way all of us pay our taxes.

01:10:05   - Well, he's not the same as the rest of us,

01:10:07   so I think most of his defense,

01:10:08   because he's the head of a giant multinational corporation that sells physical goods overseas, right?

01:10:12   You know, and you're not doing that.

01:10:13   But I think most of his defense seems to be centered around the idea that has been put forth by the

01:10:18   the European Union and everything that

01:10:20   two things, that Apple did something, like, wrong

01:10:25   like, they're not gonna say illegal, because it wasn't illegal, but like,

01:10:28   sneaky and wrong.

01:10:30   And that

01:10:32   it was sneaky and wrong back then, and therefore you owe all those back taxes

01:10:36   Like it was, you know, even though you and Ireland agreed at the time that you agreed on it

01:10:40   You didn't know this but it was against our anti-competitive laws of the European Union

01:10:44   So we want you to pay not from now on

01:10:46   not going forward because that's I feel like that's between the European Union and Ireland in terms of

01:10:50   Deciding like are some Irish tax laws in violation of the anti-competitive thing

01:10:56   but basically they don't want like one country like the Delaware of Europe to be able to attract all the economic activity

01:11:03   Starving out the other countries like they're trying to keep the countries from undercutting each other and hurting it

01:11:07   It's supposed to be a big, you know European Union. You're not supposed to have

01:11:10   like one country one stronger country crushing another one with the power of its tax subsidies for

01:11:17   Big companies or whatever. So that's what the EU is trying to do

01:11:20   I feel like that's between EU and Ireland to figure out what the deal is there

01:11:23   but I think Apple's defense is we're not a sneaky criminal and

01:11:26   if you've decided if you guys working out amongst yourselves Ireland European and whatever you got to do if you decide

01:11:33   that going forward this isn't going to be the deal anymore, change your laws, we'll comply with them,

01:11:36   but we don't want to pay you back taxes on 13 billion. And the US laws being like you pay the

01:11:42   difference in taxes, I feel like it is kind of weird for physical goods that you would that you

01:11:46   sell in a particular place. Like tax that where if you sell something, I mean it's sneaky that you

01:11:51   sell something in France and you get tax-verted in Ireland, so that's still kind of messed up, but

01:11:55   the idea that the only reasonable tax system is no matter where you sell your things in the entire

01:12:01   world because the corporate headquarters is in the United States that you pay United States

01:12:05   tax rates, I think that is, like, you need some amount of diversity in the world. You

01:12:10   need to allow countries to have lower tax rates to encourage economic activity. Countries

01:12:15   out of the EU, I'm sure there's plenty of countries elsewhere in the world that are

01:12:19   not in the EU and not in the US that have lower corporate tax rates, right, or like

01:12:23   Hong Kong or Singapore or whatever, I don't know, Singapore is a bad example, but you

01:12:28   say like the US law is basically I don't care what your tax laws are if you are

01:12:32   US cooperation and you make money then we tax you at the US rate I don't care

01:12:37   if we're taxing you on a sale that was made from a store in some other country

01:12:40   to a person at a letter country I don't care about that I want your money

01:12:44   because you're a US cooperation because I feel like that's not a great system

01:12:47   and it could lead to situations where people don't want to incorporate in the

01:12:50   United States and they incorporate in the the global Delaware instead or

01:12:54   whatever. But anyway, Tim Cook's sort of anger about this, I feel like mostly has been motivated

01:13:00   by the injustice of having to pay essentially back taxes that are not owed. It's as if the IRS says,

01:13:05   you know, the tax law, it's been in effect for the past decade, we decided that was actually not a

01:13:09   good tax law. So we're changing it. And by the way, pretend like it was in effect for the past

01:13:14   30 years or so. And you all, you all saw back taxes on it. So he's going against that, because

01:13:18   I feel like that's just not fair, right? Who knows if that would actually happen, but that's what

01:13:21   we can play on and the idea that they're sneakier wrong which is borderline

01:13:25   because it's pretty sneaky like everything having to do with tax

01:13:28   avoidance is pretty sneaky I don't think Tim Cook is responsible for setting up

01:13:32   these sneaky laws but on the other hand it was like sneaky between a corporation

01:13:36   and a government like again Ireland was all for it because they want their

01:13:40   little 0.005 percent 0.005 percent of a hoe-jillion dollars is way better than

01:13:46   35 percent of zero dollars because Apple doesn't do its thing in Ireland anymore

01:13:49   So it's kind of gross and kind of sneaky between Apple, but I really don't think

01:13:54   saying that they owe back taxes makes all that much sense unless like I don't

01:13:59   know what the European Union process unless there's some sort of process

01:14:01   where they can prove that as it turns out that that Ireland law tax law was

01:14:07   always against the EU Charter and then you got to work something out. And as for

01:14:11   repatriating the money, again I think it's kind of weird that the US wants all

01:14:15   the taxes to be at the US rate no matter where you sell things. I don't feel like

01:14:19   that's a scalable solution to a world economy.

01:14:23   But if you're going to do that, yeah,

01:14:26   like I don't think Tim Cook's saying,

01:14:27   "We would like to bring that money back,

01:14:29   "but give us a lower rate."

01:14:30   He can say that all he wants, but I don't think it's good.

01:14:35   Everyone wants to have lower taxes,

01:14:36   and if you're a corporation saying,

01:14:38   "Oh, we totally bring that money back."

01:14:39   It's like holding the money ransom.

01:14:41   We'll bring these trillions back, just give us a lower rate.

01:14:45   And I feel like that's not gonna go anywhere.

01:14:47   And I'm not quite sure why Tim Cook is lobbying for that much because honestly

01:14:51   Does he need that money back into the US or is that just trying to be like an olive branch?

01:14:55   You're like we totally bring that money back because I can imagine

01:14:57   The US lowering the rate and then Apple going now we'll stick with zero zero point five percent

01:15:02   thanks a lot about changing that law and everything but

01:15:04   0.005 percent versus that like I don't know the details of why he would want to bring it back specifically

01:15:10   Um, but as for like the you know, the shareholders are people getting angry at Tim Cook, you know

01:15:15   He does that all the time in terms of like telling the shareholder if you don't you know

01:15:19   We know that this is not the best way to make money

01:15:22   But if you don't like it like, you know, the the soul, you know

01:15:24   Sustainable energy or whatever maybe you human rights many times

01:15:28   He said to investors if you're in it for the short term and you just want to see this thing

01:15:32   Just get out of the stock. There's plenty of other stocks you can buy, right?

01:15:34   So I think it's totally within reason for him to take a similar ethical stand on tax law here

01:15:40   He just hasn't chosen to and I think there's two parts at one. I don't think this is the same category as

01:15:46   You know, it's I don't think it's it really is a moral issue

01:15:50   Maybe it's a mild ethical issue

01:15:53   But morally speaking the environment and human rights are way bigger causes than arguing over

01:15:57   Whether tax dollars go to the EU or to the US or whatever

01:16:01   It's just it's not quite the same thing

01:16:04   It's just shuffling paper around and I know there are consequences of all that and so on and so forth

01:16:08   but I think it's hard to draw a really straight line between arguments between these giants about

01:16:14   tax law and things like the environment, which is like, doesn't recognize borders and is shared by

01:16:19   the entire planet and has irreparable effects. And then it just seems like him personally,

01:16:26   and Apple as a corporation, don't feel like they are on the wrong side of this. If they did,

01:16:31   if they felt like they were on the wrong side of this and needed to change something,

01:16:34   they would change it and they would go to the shareholders and say, "If you don't like us

01:16:36   doing this then fine but you know it's I think you don't get to be the CEO of one

01:16:41   of the biggest companies in the world by doing things saying like I know our tax

01:16:46   rate is X but I just don't feel it's ethically right for us to pay that low

01:16:49   should we should pay some extra taxes this year like there's a limit to how

01:16:52   far people's minds can bend to rather the other way I think your mind

01:16:59   eventually bends to the idea that voluntarily paying more taxes than you

01:17:03   need to is not a good business plan. And so that's, I think that's where they're at. And

01:17:08   maybe in his deathbed, Tim Cook will say, "You know what? I should have brought that

01:17:11   money back and just pay the taxes so that the bridge that collapsed with my loved one

01:17:15   on it didn't collapse because America doesn't know how to fund infrastructure anymore. And

01:17:19   if only I had given 20 trillion more dollars, it would have helped." But I don't know. I

01:17:24   feel like it's, you know, he's a company man, he's a good CEO, and this does not rise to

01:17:30   the level of human rights or the environment.

01:17:32   - Well then that's why it kind of rubbed me the wrong way,

01:17:35   like how much Cook is kind of trying to bring the public

01:17:39   to support him on this.

01:17:40   He's kind of bringing this fight into the public

01:17:42   with his statements.

01:17:44   Both the Ireland thing-- - The public doesn't care.

01:17:45   - Right, both the Ireland thing and the corporate tax rate

01:17:49   repatriation thing.

01:17:51   And it just seems like, this is just one of those reminders

01:17:55   that for all the good things they do

01:17:57   and for all the good people there,

01:17:58   Apple is still a giant corporation.

01:18:01   and the CEO of it is still the CEO of a giant corporation

01:18:03   and one of his main jobs is trying to pay

01:18:05   as little tax as possible and trying to do

01:18:07   all sorts of tricks and it's a little bit weird.

01:18:09   It's only a little bit weird that Cook seems to not sense

01:18:14   how bringing this to the public is probably not a good use

01:18:17   of that political capital.

01:18:20   - I don't think he's bringing it to the public

01:18:21   to convince them over at Apple's side.

01:18:23   He's doing damage control.

01:18:24   What he doesn't want, if he doesn't say anything,

01:18:26   what comes out of this is just the repeated idea

01:18:28   that Apple cheats on its taxes and doesn't pay its fair share.

01:18:31   And that's what he's coming out to say.

01:18:33   We don't cheat, we're not doing things against the law, we pay our fair share.

01:18:36   That's always his message.

01:18:37   And if he wasn't being attacked, because if he said nothing and just said, "Well, whatever,

01:18:41   the public doesn't care about this," eventually it would just be common knowledge that Apple

01:18:45   cheats on his taxes and doesn't pay its fair share.

01:18:48   And that's why he feels like he has to go to the public.

01:18:50   Now I think in general the public doesn't care about that that much anyway.

01:18:53   But I still think if he didn't come out and argue strongly against it, fast forward five

01:18:58   years and you make a joke about Apple not paying taxes and everyone will go, "Oh yeah,

01:19:01   Apple, those are the company that doesn't pay taxes."

01:19:03   Where in reality, all corporations don't pay taxes because they all use these loopholes,

01:19:07   but only Apple would be getting the bad PR for it, you know what I mean?

01:19:09   So I feel like that's why he is so vocal about it, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't

01:19:16   think it's a campaign to convince the world to call your Congressmen until Apple repatriated

01:19:20   a trillion dollars.

01:19:21   I don't think that's in anybody's head.

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01:22:07   - So as we record, it is Friday the 2nd of September

01:22:15   on the 7th, which is this coming Wednesday.

01:22:18   Convenient for our recording next week actually.

01:22:20   I didn't even think about that.

01:22:22   On the 7th, Apple will be releasing ostensibly

01:22:26   the new version of the iPhone,

01:22:28   which may or may not be called the iPhone 7.

01:22:31   It may or may not be announcing a new Apple Watch

01:22:35   and may or may not be releasing new MacBook Pros.

01:22:40   Thoughts on what's happening here.

01:22:43   I think we can all agree that there will be a new iPhone 7.

01:22:46   Well, sorry, I shouldn't say

01:22:50   that will be the name, just that there will be a new phone.

01:22:52   It sounds to me like it's pretty much a given

01:22:54   that it will not have a headphone jack.

01:22:58   I think I'm okay with that.

01:23:01   I'm not thrilled by it,

01:23:03   but I'm not devastated by it either.

01:23:05   - Well, this was the genius of Apple's PR campaign

01:23:08   over basically the entire spring and summer

01:23:11   of what seems, in retrospect,

01:23:13   and even seemed a bit like at the time,

01:23:15   what seemed like a very good controlled-leak campaign

01:23:18   to set expectations accordingly

01:23:21   and get all the anger out slowly over the whole summer.

01:23:24   So because we started hearing pretty clear rumors

01:23:27   about there being no headphone jack

01:23:29   from pretty well-known sources,

01:23:31   like pretty good publications, a long time ago.

01:23:33   So we've had the whole summer to get all mad about it.

01:23:36   And now we just kind of all accept it as,

01:23:38   okay, well yeah, this falls off on,

01:23:39   there's no headphone jack.

01:23:40   And like, had we not known that ahead of time by so long,

01:23:44   had so much time to get mad about it

01:23:45   and then finally accept it,

01:23:48   All that anger would have blown up next week

01:23:52   at the same time that Apple's using a design

01:23:54   for the third year in a row for the first time.

01:23:56   And by the way, if I may say again,

01:23:57   not a particularly great design.

01:23:59   So imagine the anger that that would have played

01:24:03   and the negative press coverage

01:24:04   that would have had on the product

01:24:06   that now probably won't happen as much.

01:24:08   I still think there will be some,

01:24:10   but I think it won't be nearly as much

01:24:11   as it would have been if we hadn't been able to stew about it

01:24:15   from Bloomberg and rumor sites for the entire summer.

01:24:17   Yeah, that's they did the best they could with that but there's a limit because I think

01:24:22   Almost everybody who goes to buy this new iPhone will not know that it has no iPhone Jack

01:24:28   So even though we are and the tech media which is really all Apple to do who's the interested in the story at all?

01:24:33   Months before it comes out the tech media and us who read the tech media. So that's all they can do, right?

01:24:38   So we're kind of getting over it and learning to deal with it and had all the think pieces about it and so on and so

01:24:43   But we are a tiny tiny sliver of the huge number of people who buy iPhones and pretty much to a first approximation

01:24:49   Every single person who goes into buy the new iPhone in you know

01:24:53   the first month or two is gonna be like wait, where's the headphone jack until the story goes on your local news and

01:24:59   USA Today and all sort of mainstream media that people watch and

01:25:05   Eventually the public will know what Apple has spared is

01:25:09   The incredible outrage that would have been if it was a surprise to us like Margo said like if the tech press also was blindsided

01:25:15   By it it would just be way way bigger, but I still think there will be a fairly substantial like speaking of tonight's show

01:25:22   Monologue worthy gags about the new iPhone not having a headphone port

01:25:27   Among the regular people who don't follow exactly what the new iPhone is going to be months in advance

01:25:31   and they'll learn about it when the product is announced and when it's released like everybody else and

01:25:37   and they'll get over it in their own time.

01:25:39   So I think Apple did the best it could with the PR campaign,

01:25:42   but we'll see if their timing is right on this

01:25:46   or if the future, time is on their side

01:25:50   or they're the wave of the future

01:25:51   as they have been so many other times.

01:25:52   I can tell you that the other day

01:25:54   I tried to plug my headphones into the lighting port

01:25:56   on my iPhone 6.

01:25:58   Obviously I've been stewing in the idea

01:26:00   that there won't be a headphone port for a long time,

01:26:02   but I got so far as that I touched the two of them together.

01:26:05   That's how far I got.

01:26:06   to start pressing, but I touched the two of them together.

01:26:09   And it's mostly because I've been thinking

01:26:11   for six months now or whatever it's been

01:26:13   about what it might be like to have lightning headphones.

01:26:16   And several months ago, I think I sort of can't,

01:26:18   my personal piece with this issue is that,

01:26:21   look, all I ever connect to my iPhone

01:26:23   are the ear pods that came with it.

01:26:26   If it comes with ear pods

01:26:27   that I can still plug into the phone, which it will, fine,

01:26:30   fine, then like, how does this, personally,

01:26:33   just me personally, not saying this is a good idea

01:26:35   the product so on and so forth just for me personally I really don't think this

01:26:38   change will affect my life except if this means that the extra number of

01:26:43   plugs and unplugs wear out my lighting port faster but other than that I think

01:26:47   my life won't change I'm also very interested in the you know rumors of the

01:26:51   wireless you know ear pod things and like I'll try them out I'll probably buy

01:26:58   a pair of those and give Apple some money because I'm kind of fascinated by

01:27:02   that idea but some yeah I don't know how much they're gonna cost gonna be a

01:27:05   hundred bucks I got some some person sent one to the show like someone who

01:27:09   works for like this headphone company whose name I can't remember I think was

01:27:11   like 801 something anyway but they're not why your list they have a wire from

01:27:16   one ear to the other that's what most of them do yeah and and on that wire is the

01:27:20   little clicker thing and I know they're not wired in the same way but that wire

01:27:25   going from one ear to the other even though it gives me a place for the

01:27:28   clicker still feels weird like it doesn't feel like they're wireless to me

01:27:32   I know they are like there's no connection to my jacket pocket and the

01:27:35   thing but it still feels strange to me so the rumors I see of Apple Apple

01:27:39   potentially having ones that literally don't have any wires on them I might

01:27:43   give that a try if it's an Apple thing but yeah I think I think we've covered

01:27:47   the headphone jack and the iPhone 7 as has been the case with most iPhones for

01:27:51   the past many years we feel like we know every single thing about it we feel like

01:27:54   We've seen pictures of the actual phone.

01:27:57   We know, the only thing we never know is like,

01:27:59   all right, A10 system on a chip will be better.

01:28:03   How much better?

01:28:04   Because that's the type of stuff that doesn't leak,

01:28:06   'cause no one's slicing the top off the chip

01:28:07   and analyzing the die before the thing, but.

01:28:09   - Well, there was that one leak Geekbench thing

01:28:12   that showed it being about 50% faster,

01:28:14   which I don't know if that was real,

01:28:15   but they have made jumps of that magnitude before,

01:28:19   so it is certainly plausible that it might be 50% faster.

01:28:22   Looks should be cool.

01:28:23   - Yeah, and we get those type of rumors like,

01:28:26   is it gonna be way faster or a little bit faster?

01:28:27   And this one seems like another way faster one,

01:28:30   but we'll see.

01:28:31   But I think that is, it's kind of boring

01:28:33   for these Apple events,

01:28:35   especially like the next year event,

01:28:36   the 10th anniversary super thin phone

01:28:38   with like no home button and the touch ID

01:28:40   and the screen and the edge to edge,

01:28:41   like all those rumors that we're already getting.

01:28:43   It'll be kind of sad if we know everything about that one

01:28:45   before it comes out,

01:28:46   'cause I would like to be surprised again,

01:28:47   but this seems, alas, not to be possible

01:28:50   when you sell so many hundreds of millions of these things.

01:28:53   It's impossible for the parts not to leak.

01:28:55   And for the September event,

01:28:57   like that's the headline attraction.

01:28:59   Every single rumor story has been saying,

01:29:02   don't look for Max, don't bother,

01:29:04   it's not the type of event.

01:29:05   So I'm already prepared not to see anything about Max.

01:29:09   I'm fine with the Max coming out at a later date.

01:29:12   - See that?

01:29:13   - You can't let it go?

01:29:15   - No, I mean, everyone is basically saying,

01:29:17   like everyone's basically reporting as fact now,

01:29:19   which sounds a lot like controlled leaks,

01:29:21   they're basically reporting as fact that

01:29:22   there won't be Macs announced, that that'll come later,

01:29:26   which of course, Macs are always coming later.

01:29:29   Linux will be great next year.

01:29:31   So I am not ready to let that go yet, if only because,

01:29:35   so we're pretty sure there's not gonna be iPads

01:29:36   at this event, and the phone updates are gonna be

01:29:39   not that major, not taking a lot of stage time,

01:29:44   so what the heck is gonna fall with time in the event?

01:29:46   Like if this is gonna be like the big fall event?

01:29:48   But it sounds like Apple Watch 2 is also pretty minor.

01:29:51   - Yeah, but two minor things.

01:29:53   First of all, you know how long they can go on

01:29:54   about any phone.

01:29:55   They'll be showing you a million pictures

01:29:57   from the dual camera.

01:29:58   They'll be showing you all the graphs

01:30:00   and they'll probably show iOS 10 features again.

01:30:03   And just like, it will take a while.

01:30:04   And then the watch, this is the first

01:30:07   and only significant update to the watch

01:30:09   besides the new colors and new bands.

01:30:10   They're gonna spend a long time on that,

01:30:11   especially if it's got, we have these tips from the,

01:30:15   not from the tipster, the non-tipster tips.

01:30:17   So who knows what the problem is.

01:30:19   Could be even more fabricated than stories about USB hubs.

01:30:22   (laughing)

01:30:24   - Sick burn.

01:30:25   - Yeah, this is the watch two, GPS,

01:30:27   which would be a big deal if it was true

01:30:29   because all we've been hearing from random rumors

01:30:33   over the past year or so is that Apple has learned

01:30:35   that pretty much the most important function

01:30:38   of the Apple Watch for most customers is fitness related

01:30:40   and people are still wearing Fitbits and stuff.

01:30:42   So, you know, if you have GPS on the watch itself,

01:30:44   that really changes the story in terms of applications

01:30:48   to keep track of your exercise and do running

01:30:49   if you wanna do it without your phone,

01:30:51   if that's a thing that people wanna do.

01:30:53   Improved waterproofing, which is hard to imagine

01:30:55   because Craig Hockenberry has taken something

01:30:56   like 150 swims in the ocean with his watch

01:30:59   and it's still going strong.

01:31:00   So I think the waterproofing is already pretty good.

01:31:03   The Apple Watch 1 will stick around at a lower price,

01:31:05   which is totally a Tim Cook thing to do,

01:31:06   but on the other hand, sounds crazy to me, but who knows?

01:31:10   - Please let the CPU die as fast as possible.

01:31:12   - Yeah, yeah.

01:31:13   More health sensors did not make it again.

01:31:15   This is the persistent rumor.

01:31:17   When the first watch came out, everyone's like,

01:31:18   "Oh, Apple wanted to do like a blood oxygenation,

01:31:20   but they couldn't because of FDA, blah, blah, blah."

01:31:23   And second watch, same set of rumors.

01:31:25   "Oh, Apple wanted to do more health stuff,

01:31:26   but they couldn't because there's lots of regulations."

01:31:28   So you just run that rumor forever

01:31:30   because if there's never any new health features,

01:31:31   like, "Yeah, they just missed it.

01:31:32   Apple wanted to do it, but couldn't."

01:31:34   It's not, you know, show me the features or don't.

01:31:37   And potential for an improved model

01:31:39   with more health sensors in six months,

01:31:41   but it could be pushed until Christmas 2017.

01:31:43   So yeah, you're right, like the Apple Watch 2 rumors, even if you believe every single

01:31:47   one of these tips, GPS I think that's pretty big.

01:31:51   If they can make it thinner, but I doubt they will, that's kind of big.

01:31:55   But I fully believe that Apple can make a full presentation out of a new line of phones

01:32:01   and new line of watches and not mention anything about the Mac.

01:32:05   Yeah, and let's not forget that we also have WatchOS 3, which I know was covered at WWDC,

01:32:11   but it's a big change.

01:32:13   especially if the watch sales have been kind of meh, which is what everyone seems to think whether

01:32:17   or not that's true, who knows, then they're going to want to really do a pretty significant dog and

01:32:22   pony show about watchOS 3. There could be a video game demo or two on iOS 10 with the new hardware.

01:32:28   I mean, we could eat the what you're saying Marco is how could ATP have an episode of more than 20

01:32:33   minutes when there's nothing going on in the middle of the summer? Well, we always find a way

01:32:38   and Apple can too. Going back a step though, a couple things. One, I would love for my Apple

01:32:46   Watch to be thinner. This is the only Apple device that I can think of that I really, really, really

01:32:52   want to be thinner. Very much so. And I think that there's plenty of room to give, even while

01:32:58   keeping the same band compatibility, which I think they will and I think that's important,

01:33:01   I think there's plenty of room for them to give on the thickness. And if the battery life stays

01:33:07   roughly the same, and to be honest,

01:33:10   if the performance only gets a little bit faster,

01:33:12   I'm okay with that, but I would love

01:33:14   for this thing to be thinner.

01:33:16   I have another question I wanna ask you guys,

01:33:17   but Marco, it sounds like you have some thoughts on this.

01:33:19   - Oh, I just, I'm laughing every time I see,

01:33:23   the recent rumor is that the battery for the watch

01:33:27   got like 30% bigger, and they achieved this

01:33:30   in roughly the same size casing

01:33:32   by making some of the screen components smaller.

01:33:34   And I think it's like, this is the one Apple product

01:33:38   that doesn't really need more battery life.

01:33:40   Like the 42 millimeter getting a 30% bigger battery life,

01:33:44   it's like, it already has an amazing battery life.

01:33:47   - Well, they said that the battery got 30% bigger,

01:33:50   but if you have GPS on it,

01:33:52   doesn't mean it gets any better battery life.

01:33:54   - Well, that's true.

01:33:55   Although, to be fair, and I think this was on Connected

01:33:57   where they were talking about what that is likely to be,

01:33:59   or maybe it was upgrade, where basically,

01:34:01   assuming this thing gets GPS,

01:34:04   it's probably going to be a lot like the workout mode

01:34:07   or something where you can turn it on,

01:34:08   you have to explicitly turn it on when you want it,

01:34:10   and it's probably not gonna be on

01:34:11   the vast majority of the time.

01:34:13   You're probably gonna have to really explicitly call it out

01:34:15   and say, all right, turn on GPS now.

01:34:17   - But the apps, I think the apps will be able to control.

01:34:19   Like, you go over your hour-long run,

01:34:20   you start your workout, and your app gets to run

01:34:23   the whole time 'cause they have that new feature

01:34:24   in watchOS 3 where you get to run during the whole workout,

01:34:27   and that will slaughter your battery

01:34:29   if you run for an hour or two

01:34:30   if they don't give you a 30% bigger battery.

01:34:32   so I feel like it'll probably be a wash.

01:34:34   - Yeah.

01:34:35   - Yeah, you're probably right.

01:34:36   - Although it'll be a massive boon

01:34:37   for people who don't use GPS, so there you go.

01:34:40   - Yeah, well this is why I really,

01:34:41   I would love it if Apple basically split

01:34:45   the sport features off into the sport model

01:34:48   and also had, maybe take the steel model

01:34:51   and make it a little bit dressier one,

01:34:53   like the office one, you know?

01:34:55   Like that's the one you wear to work or whatever.

01:34:58   And if you don't need some of the more advanced

01:35:01   fitness features like some of the more advanced sensors

01:35:04   or GPS, maybe you can get a thinner steel watch

01:35:08   for a couple hundred dollars more

01:35:10   that looks a little bit nicer,

01:35:11   and then the sport model,

01:35:12   which is most of the ones they're selling anyway,

01:35:14   can still get all this big bulky stuff

01:35:15   and some of the more fitness stuff

01:35:16   because that's what most of its buyers actually want.

01:35:20   - So you want a day watch and a night watch, got it.

01:35:22   To go back to the phone,

01:35:25   if they go with killing the headphone jack,

01:35:28   which seems pretty much a given,

01:35:30   I have seen a rumor that answers this question, but I'm curious what you guys think.

01:35:34   And let's start with Jon.

01:35:36   Do you think that they will include some sort of lightning to… what is the acronym for

01:35:42   the headphone port?

01:35:43   JONATHAN: TRRS.

01:35:44   SEAN: Thank you.

01:35:46   A lightning to TRRS adapter.

01:35:49   Will that be in the box?

01:35:50   Yes or no?

01:35:51   Jon Syracusa.

01:35:52   JONATHAN I have to put money on it.

01:35:53   I would say no, just because I feel like they're going to include ear pods with a lightning

01:35:57   connector on the end in the box because they've been so, you know, sort of stingy with the

01:36:02   accessories lately.

01:36:03   The only thing that's making me question it a little bit is how they would sell the presumed

01:36:10   passive no-chips-required connector for the adapter.

01:36:14   Because Apple doesn't like to sell things for less than like $20, and can they sell

01:36:19   that adapter for $10 or $20?

01:36:21   It's so tiny.

01:36:22   The box, it would be like the size of the old iPod Shuffle Trident Stick of Gum box,

01:36:26   maybe even smaller.

01:36:28   Like I don't know how they sell this in a way,

01:36:31   like even just thinking of like shrinkage

01:36:33   as they call it in the industry or theft,

01:36:35   like how can you even have these?

01:36:36   Like will they have a Tic Tac dispenser

01:36:38   that just dumps these things out?

01:36:39   Like that's the only thing that's making,

01:36:41   it's like they don't sell the SIM card removal tool, right?

01:36:45   They don't sell that separately.

01:36:46   Or they also don't give it to you in the box

01:36:47   a lot of times with the phone.

01:36:48   But that's the type of thing,

01:36:49   like it's so freaking small and so cheap.

01:36:52   How can you sell it separately?

01:36:54   And yet they must sell it separately

01:36:56   if they don't include it in the box.

01:36:57   But I still think that the smart money is on

01:36:59   no adapter in the box, but it's borderline.

01:37:02   - The chat room is saying exactly

01:37:04   what I was going to say to you,

01:37:05   which is they sold the MagSafe one to two adapter,

01:37:07   which was $10.

01:37:08   - Right, and that was super weird, right?

01:37:10   That was super weird and really small

01:37:12   and like not a normal thing that they do.

01:37:13   And also way fewer people need MagSafe one to two

01:37:16   than could potentially be in the market for this adapter.

01:37:19   Obviously every third party in the world

01:37:21   will also sell this adapter, but they're not Apple.

01:37:24   Like it's weird for Apple to be selling stuff like that.

01:37:26   But anyway, yeah, just lightning ear pods in the box.

01:37:29   - Also, as Tipster said in the chat,

01:37:31   even if they include it in the box,

01:37:32   they still have to sell it separately,

01:37:34   'cause people are gonna need more than one.

01:37:35   - Oh, that's an interesting point.

01:37:36   - I know, I know, it's just a weird product

01:37:38   for Apple to sell.

01:37:39   I guess if they sell it for 30 bucks, it's not weird anymore

01:37:41   but then there'll be some screaming.

01:37:43   - I mean, you know I'm as much of a skeptic and cynic

01:37:47   about the Tim Cook era of Apple being super profitable

01:37:50   and driving up attachment sales and everything.

01:37:52   However, even I don't think it's gonna be 30 bucks.

01:37:55   I think it's gonna be either 10 or 20.

01:37:57   - I would agree with that, but Marco,

01:37:58   do you think it will be in the box, yes or no?

01:38:00   - No, because, and I think Gruber mentioned this

01:38:02   at one point, basically, if they put it in the box,

01:38:05   that's kind of an admission that it's necessary,

01:38:08   and I don't see them doing that.

01:38:10   I see them saying, "This is the future."

01:38:13   - Up until today, I would have said no freaking way

01:38:15   that that adapter will be in the box.

01:38:16   However, there was a post that I saw earlier today,

01:38:20   I'm never gonna be able to find the link, and I'm sorry,

01:38:22   But there was a post with a picture of like,

01:38:26   it included many different things,

01:38:28   but one of the things it included was a list of the things

01:38:30   in the iPhone 7 box, and I believe it was called iPhone 7,

01:38:33   and this was like a Korean model.

01:38:35   Gosh, only knows if it was legit or not,

01:38:37   but it said in there, "Lightning-powered ear pods,"

01:38:40   that wasn't the exact phrasing, but something like that,

01:38:42   "and a lightning-to-headphone jack adapter in the box,"

01:38:46   which I would be very surprised if that's the case.

01:38:49   I think the same, that it is a position of strength to,

01:38:53   or a strong move not to include it,

01:38:57   and it is an admission of weakness if they do include it.

01:38:59   I think it's more customer-friendly to include it,

01:39:03   but that's not generally Apple-style

01:39:05   when it comes to these sorts of things,

01:39:06   so I'll be surprised if it's in there,

01:39:08   but the smoke is saying that it will be.

01:39:11   - Well, there is more parallels to the Thunderbolt display

01:39:13   than you think, 'cause the whole Thunderbolt display thing

01:39:15   was, all right, so we're selling this thing,

01:39:18   And all of a sudden we sell a line of computers

01:39:21   that don't work with the little MagSafe thing

01:39:23   that's dangling off of it, right?

01:39:25   So we have one product and that product is fine as it is,

01:39:29   but we've introduced another product here.

01:39:30   Like it doesn't match up with the rest of our product line.

01:39:33   So now we have to pick one of these products

01:39:35   to ship with a thing that says, okay,

01:39:36   when you buy this one,

01:39:37   it would be weird to buy a Thunderbolt display

01:39:40   and not to be able to use it with the brand new laptop

01:39:42   that you just bought alongside it.

01:39:44   'Cause we're selling them simultaneously

01:39:46   or no matter what order you did it.

01:39:48   Say you buy a laptop, then six months later,

01:39:50   because the Thunderbolt display has been out

01:39:51   for like 800 years before they canceled it,

01:39:53   six months later, you buy a Thunderbolt display,

01:39:55   you'd be surprised to see,

01:39:56   wait, I bought this laptop not that long ago,

01:39:58   and now I'm buying a brand new monitor,

01:39:59   it doesn't work with it?

01:40:01   So Apple wants these products to work together.

01:40:03   Well, Apple owns Beats.

01:40:05   Say you buy Beats headphones,

01:40:07   and then a couple months later, the new iPhone comes out.

01:40:10   It feels kind of weird that you just bought this product

01:40:12   in an Apple store from basically Apple

01:40:14   that you can't use with your just purchased iPhone.

01:40:16   I think, you just asked me what you thought they would do.

01:40:20   I think they should include the adapter in the box,

01:40:21   especially if it's passive.

01:40:23   And that's why I feel like it's borderline

01:40:24   where it's not the Apple thing to do,

01:40:27   but if they were, it's kind of like the bumper case,

01:40:30   like they didn't include the bumper case with the iPhones,

01:40:32   but eventually Steve Jobs like, fine, you want bumpers?

01:40:35   Free bumpers for everybody.

01:40:36   Like it's a nice way to make a problem go away,

01:40:38   to have like, to have a ready answer when they say,

01:40:41   but you took away the headphone port.

01:40:42   Sometimes like, the adapter comes in the box.

01:40:45   I would still bet against it, but it's a lot closer

01:40:47   than I would have thought.

01:40:48   Having chewed on this for the past several months,

01:40:51   I would not bet super heavily on it,

01:40:53   but that's still my bet.

01:40:54   - Oh, no, I agree that they should put it in the box

01:40:57   for customer sat reasons.

01:40:59   They really should, and that would help a lot.

01:41:02   That would change the story from,

01:41:04   you are making us buy new crap,

01:41:07   to most people just saying,

01:41:09   oh, now we have to use this other thing that's in the box,

01:41:11   which it's still a crap move, I think,

01:41:14   overall to remove this jack for apparently no need

01:41:18   in this generation, but at least that would really change,

01:41:23   it would make it so that when you get these things,

01:41:26   no matter what kind of headphones you use with your phone,

01:41:28   you don't have to buy anything extra

01:41:30   just to use your old headphones with your new iPhone.

01:41:32   And that is a big satisfaction win at the purchase point.

01:41:36   It makes it feel like less of a quote, money grab,

01:41:39   this phrase I hate that everyone loves so much.

01:41:41   Like, if they make you spend an extra 20 bucks

01:41:43   to adapt your existing headphones to it,

01:41:44   people are gonna get mad.

01:41:46   And they're not gonna get mad that it's 20 bucks,

01:41:47   they're gonna get mad that it's like an add-on at all.

01:41:50   - Yeah, they're confused.

01:41:51   The money grab is the storage.

01:41:52   (laughing)

01:41:53   It's the money grab.

01:41:54   There is a money grab here, but it's not the headphones.

01:41:57   - Yeah, and all the rumors, finally, they're saying now,

01:42:00   now that even 32 is becoming too small,

01:42:02   Apple is finally upgrading from 16 to 32

01:42:05   for the baseline storage.

01:42:06   - Yay!

01:42:07   like we could move to 32, but is 32 painfully small for people? Let's wait another year.

01:42:12   And then finally, I say we can move to 32. Is 32 painfully small? It's actually painfully

01:42:16   small for a lot of customers. Good, let's move to it. Now it's done.

01:42:19   - Yeah, we actually, a couple years, yeah, about a year ago or so, a year and a half,

01:42:24   we bought my mother-in-law an iPad Air or Air 2. It was her first iPad, and we weren't

01:42:29   sure if she was gonna use it that much, so we only got the base 32 model. They were preparing

01:42:34   for a trip and you just wanna put videos on.

01:42:36   And here I am juggling, like, all right,

01:42:38   we gotta download this video for the plane,

01:42:39   now we gotta go delete this video

01:42:40   and try to figure out how to download this video

01:42:42   in SD instead of HD, which is not easy.

01:42:45   And it's like all this juggling,

01:42:47   'cause yeah, 32, it turns out,

01:42:49   32 kind of isn't big enough anymore either.

01:42:51   So it is definitely time for them to move to 32.

01:42:54   - And the thing is, with the storage,

01:42:56   I mean, I'm glad that they're moving out from 16,

01:42:58   'cause it is 16 again, come on, it's getting ridiculous.

01:43:00   But Google Photos just had that ad, I think,

01:43:04   Was it TV ad or an online ad?

01:43:05   But anyways, and it had ridiculing Apple

01:43:08   for people who basically own iPhones

01:43:11   and take a lot of pictures,

01:43:11   and eventually you can't take any more pictures

01:43:13   because it says your storage is full.

01:43:14   Yep, and this is a thing that happens

01:43:16   because people take lots of pictures with their phones

01:43:19   and people don't delete their pictures

01:43:21   when they're done with them because they,

01:43:23   you know, like, why would I delete them?

01:43:24   I want to keep my photos.

01:43:25   And Apple has iCloud Photo Library.

01:43:27   It's supposed to take care of this for you in practice,

01:43:29   as I've seen in person for myself many, many times.

01:43:32   or the sort of like optimized storage format you

01:43:35   automatically does not do it when you want to.

01:43:37   You fill it up and you're like, okay,

01:43:39   optimized storage now, like what signal do you need

01:43:42   from me or from the operating system?

01:43:44   I am full, I can't fit any, my thing was like,

01:43:46   I was trying to import photos into the,

01:43:48   like I'm in the photos application.

01:43:50   I mean, maybe photos isn't the thing

01:43:52   that optimizes storage.

01:43:52   Maybe it's the background ubiquity demon or whatever,

01:43:55   you know, who knows?

01:43:56   But I'm trying to import, photos knows I'm trying to import,

01:43:59   photos tells me there's not enough room.

01:44:00   I'm like, "Yeah, but I have the optimized storage thing

01:44:02   "checked off, just purge a bunch of old pictures.

01:44:04   "Do it now."

01:44:05   And there's no button that says,

01:44:07   "Please free up my disk space by purging pictures,"

01:44:09   because that's not the Apple way.

01:44:10   And so I'm just stuck there staring at it going,

01:44:11   "Well, you won't let me import off this SD card.

01:44:14   "I had an optimized storage check.

01:44:15   "Do I just wait 24 hours to see if you'll,

01:44:19   "do I import just enough photos to push the disk

01:44:21   "past its storage limit?"

01:44:23   In practice, it doesn't work the way it's supposed to work,

01:44:25   but Apple really believes their tech lineup,

01:44:28   their bullet points, they're like,

01:44:29   "Oh, well we have app thinning,

01:44:31   and we have incremental downloads of content,

01:44:34   and we have optimizing storage for our photos library,

01:44:37   and for our movies, and iCloud storage, and backups."

01:44:39   So 16 is actually not that bad.

01:44:41   Do you remember that story for the past few years?

01:44:42   I think Phil Schiller said it in person,

01:44:44   one of the things like, 16 doesn't seem like a lot,

01:44:46   but we have all these amazing technologies for compression,

01:44:48   and putting the files from your desktop,

01:44:50   and a Mac OS Sierra up to,

01:44:52   like, yeah, you've got all that stuff,

01:44:54   but A, you're fighting it back against the tide.

01:44:56   Like, people use more storage as time goes on, period.

01:44:58   It's just the way it works.

01:44:59   And B, that crap doesn't work.

01:45:01   Like it doesn't work when you need it most.

01:45:03   When you run out of space, there is no recourse,

01:45:05   there's no button to push,

01:45:06   and it doesn't magically automatically manage it.

01:45:08   What it does give you is the dialogue that says

01:45:10   you're out of space and people don't know

01:45:11   how to deal with that.

01:45:12   And then you get the dialogues about you can't fit

01:45:14   your backup onto iCloud as you increase the storage.

01:45:17   So Apple, in theory, has tech surrounding this

01:45:20   that mitigates it somewhat, but in practice,

01:45:23   that Google ad was right on the money.

01:45:26   Like this is a real experience that people had

01:45:28   and what Google is promising,

01:45:30   I don't know if they're delivering

01:45:31   'cause I don't use Google Photos

01:45:31   for anything other than the backup,

01:45:33   what Google is promising is,

01:45:34   hey, we have essentially exactly the same system,

01:45:37   but ours actually works

01:45:38   and we won't give you the out of space

01:45:40   because I imagine Google on the fly

01:45:41   when you're taking a picture,

01:45:43   if it doesn't have enough room to store it,

01:45:44   it immediately deletes one photo and stores it.

01:45:45   Like it does a better job

01:45:47   of what Apple says it's going to do.

01:45:49   So yeah, Apple's cloud and storage situation remains fraught

01:45:54   but if they're finally ready to move it to 32, that's good.

01:45:59   If they're getting rid of 64

01:46:01   and it's gonna be 32, 128, 256,

01:46:03   actually, I think that's actually not that bad

01:46:06   because I feel like 64 should be the minimum anyway.

01:46:09   And I like the fact that you have to jump from 32 to 128,

01:46:11   but it's gonna make Apple's storage pricing tiering

01:46:16   look really weird.

01:46:17   Like 32 to 128 is an extra a hundred dollars.

01:46:20   - Yeah, well, but it already did.

01:46:22   - Yeah, I know what I was looking for.

01:46:23   Anyway, you just try to think about it.

01:46:24   That's where the magic money is made.

01:46:26   But we'll see what the tiers are.

01:46:28   - Also, some real time follow up.

01:46:29   I forgot that my iPad is also 32 gigs.

01:46:33   Like when I ordered my 9.7 iPad Pro in May,

01:46:37   I wasn't sure if I would take to the iPad again

01:46:40   'cause I'd been kind of an iPad skeptic for so long.

01:46:44   So I also just got 32 and that was a big problem

01:46:46   when I tried to load up videos on it

01:46:48   for the plane ride home from WBC

01:46:50   and there was basically no space to do anything useful.

01:46:53   I think mine might be as well.

01:46:55   I don't have it next to me.

01:46:56   Additional real-time follow-up,

01:46:58   Panda 19 in the chat was able to find the link

01:47:00   I was thinking of.

01:47:01   It was on MacRumors.

01:47:02   Looking at this again, I mean, it's super sketchy,

01:47:04   but it reads, "includes iPhone 7 Plus,

01:47:07   ear pods with lightning connector,

01:47:09   lightning to headphone jack adapter,

01:47:11   lightning to USB cable, and USB power adapter."

01:47:14   So if it's real, yeah, we will see.

01:47:17   - And by the way, speaking of announcements,

01:47:18   the alternate show idea I have,

01:47:20   because very frequently, I think on the show,

01:47:22   We have a pretty bad track record of predicting what's going to be announced.

01:47:25   But the alternate theory of what could play out in the show is new iPhone, nothing about

01:47:30   Apple Watch, and the new laptops, even though they're not shipping until much later.

01:47:34   That is also a show that I could totally envision because I think that fits into the thing of

01:47:38   like, "Hey, we spent all this time talking about Apple Watch 2 and Apple didn't say a

01:47:41   single word about it."

01:47:42   I don't think it's likely, but that's the feeling.

01:47:45   Usually after we do one of these shows, then I watch the actual announcement and I'm like,

01:47:47   "That's nothing like what we talked about.

01:47:48   We totally got this wrong."

01:47:49   I'm pretty sure there'll be a new iPhone, though.

01:47:51   - Well the question is like, are they going to have

01:47:54   multiple events this fall or not?

01:47:55   And I think so far most of the rumblings point to no,

01:47:59   it's a single event again.

01:48:00   So if there's only one public event,

01:48:03   keep in mind, this is like their whole holiday shopping

01:48:05   lineup that they're debuting here too.

01:48:07   So I think the watch has, it has to be a part of it.

01:48:11   Like even if all they have to announce is a relatively

01:48:15   minor boost of like, you know, if watch two isn't even

01:48:19   called watch to, or if it's kind of downplayed,

01:48:22   it's like, oh, now--

01:48:23   - It's the new Apple Watch.

01:48:24   - Yeah, the new Apple Watch has GPS

01:48:26   at the $499 price point, and then the cheaper ones

01:48:29   don't have it, however they do it.

01:48:31   The watch is gonna be there, because they're gonna have

01:48:33   maybe new colors, they're gonna definitely have new bands,

01:48:36   'cause bands are seasonal, it's fashion,

01:48:38   and lots of wonderful attachment profit sales there.

01:48:41   So yeah, there's gonna be new bands

01:48:42   for the fall and the winter.

01:48:44   They're gonna debut all those at this event.

01:48:45   So the only reason they wouldn't is if they're doing

01:48:48   another event later in the fall,

01:48:50   like right before big shopping season really starts.

01:48:52   But I think they're probably not, and if they're not,

01:48:55   this event's gonna be full of stuff to buy

01:48:58   for the holiday season.

01:48:59   And if Macs don't fit, that's really sad to me,

01:49:02   but I could see there's no chance the watches

01:49:05   are being mentioned, and there's no chance

01:49:06   we aren't getting new bands.

01:49:08   - The reason I mention not showing the watch events

01:49:12   and showing the laptops, or just showing laptops at all,

01:49:14   even though they're totally not ready or whatever,

01:49:15   just because the whole OLED strip thing on the keyboard,

01:49:20   it just seems like the type of feature

01:49:22   that Apple would like to announce in a keynote.

01:49:24   I know Jason Snell and Six Colors said,

01:49:26   they would just do individual press briefings,

01:49:28   that's a possibility, which they've done many times before.

01:49:29   And that's true, but I feel like they've never done

01:49:32   the sort of private embargoed individual press briefings

01:49:35   for a feature that so demands a demo and video,

01:49:40   like a presentation directly from Apple to the public

01:49:44   about this feature.

01:49:45   because normally they would have those briefings about,

01:49:47   you know, a new version of the OS

01:49:49   that's been seen several times before,

01:49:50   but here's the official release,

01:49:51   or, you know, the first look at a new OS,

01:49:55   or new laptops that are better in a couple of ways.

01:49:57   But I just feel like Apple should be the one

01:50:01   to present whatever this weird new strip thing is.

01:50:03   'Cause it is weird,

01:50:03   like even though PC makers are already doing it

01:50:05   and everything, like it's something I feel like

01:50:07   they need to explain to the public in some way.

01:50:10   And even if it's not gonna ship until like November,

01:50:15   It would be great if they put maybe just a 15-inch Pro.

01:50:19   Just pick one model to explain this whole strip thing

01:50:22   and then dole out the other ones.

01:50:24   And it would also save them from the indignity

01:50:27   of pretty much missing another generation,

01:50:30   like the KB or Kaby Lake, I don't know how to pronounce it,

01:50:33   the one that comes after Skylake has been announced

01:50:36   and the laptop chips are coming out and everything.

01:50:38   So if Apple waits much longer,

01:50:40   by the time they get their brand new Skylake

01:50:44   MacBook Pros out, the next one will already be shipping

01:50:49   in PCs, and that's not a great look,

01:50:52   after all the complaints about them being behind,

01:50:54   like, "Hey, we finally did it, we updated the MacBook Pros."

01:50:57   I know Kaby Lake isn't that big of a deal,

01:51:00   and maybe people are saying like,

01:51:01   "Oh, the reason they're waiting so long

01:51:02   is 'cause they're gonna have Kaby Lake."

01:51:03   Guys, don't hold your breath.

01:51:04   - Yeah, yeah, 'cause Kaby Lake, you know,

01:51:06   like, Skylake was announced a long time ago, too,

01:51:09   and we don't have that yet, you know,

01:51:10   Intel's announcement--

01:51:11   - I mean, this is the same process, so there's, you know,

01:51:14   But there's a chance if they waited a really long time

01:51:19   for them to ship, but all it gives you

01:51:21   is essentially better hardware decoding of video,

01:51:25   which is great, but I don't know how much of that Apple uses

01:51:27   and a clock speed boost because the process allows them

01:51:31   to crank it up a little bit,

01:51:32   their new FinFET process or whatever,

01:51:34   which is all great and good,

01:51:35   and Apple should totally use it as soon as they possibly can.

01:51:38   But at this point, I would say,

01:51:39   even if you're gonna be a little embarrassed,

01:51:41   just ship what you've got.

01:51:42   Ship the freaking Skylake things.

01:51:43   Just do it and then upgrade them to Kaby Lake

01:51:45   as soon as you can.

01:51:46   - Yeah, 'cause however, whatever Apple feels

01:51:49   about whatever's holding this back,

01:51:51   the status quo has to be worse

01:51:53   of selling these ancient MacBook Pros as new

01:51:57   to anybody who needs one right now.

01:51:59   That's gotta be worse than whatever's holding these back.

01:52:02   But anyway, who knows, we'll find out.

01:52:03   One thing I actually do wanna mention

01:52:04   before we leave the Mac topic here.

01:52:06   The rumor has come out in the last couple days

01:52:08   that in addition to the MacBook Pros,

01:52:11   there's also a MacBook Air update to USB-C.

01:52:15   And I wanted to tie this into something else.

01:52:20   There was maybe a few months back, I forget when or who,

01:52:24   I think it might have been Meng-Chi Kuo who said

01:52:26   one rumor report from somebody who's actually

01:52:29   fairly well-sourced that kind of got blown over

01:52:31   that basically said that we're gonna see

01:52:34   like new MacBook Pros and everything.

01:52:35   And they also said there's gonna be

01:52:36   a new 13-inch MacBook One.

01:52:38   And at the time, we were like, what?

01:52:41   That doesn't make sense.

01:52:43   And now there's a rumor that there's gonna be

01:52:45   a new MacBook Air update to USB-C.

01:52:48   So I think this is the same computer they're talking about.

01:52:51   And we've heard nothing about this from the tipster,

01:52:53   so who knows whether there's anything behind this.

01:52:56   But I think this is, two rumors about the same thing,

01:53:00   that it basically is an update to the MacBook Air,

01:53:04   to the 13-inch MacBook Air, maybe only,

01:53:07   maybe the 11 isn't even included,

01:53:08   Maybe it's only an update to the 13 inch MacBook Air.

01:53:11   And maybe it goes Retina.

01:53:13   Because Apple obviously tried with the MacBook One,

01:53:17   and to a large degree succeeded,

01:53:18   but they tried to replace the MacBook Air line

01:53:22   with something even more extreme,

01:53:24   even thinner, even lighter, even more limited.

01:53:27   But it turns out the MacBook Air is really great

01:53:29   in a lot of ways that the MacBook One can't or won't be

01:53:32   because it's too limited in size or thermals

01:53:36   or whatever else, it can't achieve the same things

01:53:38   of the MacBook Air.

01:53:39   So what if Apple kind of was pressured

01:53:43   by really customer reaction to the MacBook One,

01:53:47   and what if they are going to continue

01:53:49   kind of a MacBook Air, maybe even if just called a MacBook

01:53:53   and it happens to be a 13-inch one?

01:53:54   - Yeah, that's it.

01:53:56   It's not gonna be an Air in anything.

01:53:58   It's just going to be a 13-inch MacBook One,

01:54:00   and when it's 13-inch,

01:54:02   then suddenly we have more room for USB ports.

01:54:04   - Right, yeah, so maybe the new 13-inch MacBook One

01:54:08   which is really an Air, maybe that uses

01:54:10   the MacBook Air internal platform,

01:54:12   those wonderful 15 watt CPUs that are an amazing balance

01:54:15   of battery life and performance in Intel's lineup

01:54:18   that right now, with what we know today so far,

01:54:21   if the MacBook Air goes away, there's nowhere

01:54:24   for those CPUs to be used in the lineup.

01:54:26   And that would be such a waste 'cause they're so good,

01:54:28   they're so compelling, it's such a great balance

01:54:30   of what most people need out of performance

01:54:32   and battery life.

01:54:34   To have that be available in a 13 inch enclosure

01:54:37   that is MacBook Air-like and MacBook-like,

01:54:40   you know, somewhere in the middle there,

01:54:41   and to have those nice CPUs,

01:54:43   it would have to have a fan, of course,

01:54:45   'cause those are a lot hotter CPUs,

01:54:47   but that's okay for a lot of people.

01:54:48   Everyone seems to get along with it,

01:54:49   just fine with every other laptop.

01:54:51   That would be, I think, an amazing product,

01:54:53   to basically be a new 13-inch Retina Air.

01:54:56   I've been assuming this whole time

01:54:58   that rather than continue the MacBook Air line in a new way,

01:55:02   that they were going to just shrink the MacBook Pro line

01:55:04   enough so that the 13-inch MacBook Pro

01:55:06   would get small enough to replace the 13 inch Air.

01:55:09   But if they really wanted to keep 13 inch Air shape

01:55:12   and slot in the lineup going,

01:55:15   they really could do a better job of it

01:55:16   keeping it going with the same chips that it's using now,

01:55:19   with that line of processors and internals

01:55:21   and general shape and size,

01:55:23   rather than trying to make the Pro smaller

01:55:25   with the Pro's hotter CPUs, more ports,

01:55:27   more capabilities, et cetera.

01:55:28   So if this is true,

01:55:30   that there's gonna be a MacBook Air update,

01:55:32   and if that old rumor of the 13 inch MacBook

01:55:34   is actually tied in and it's actually the same thing,

01:55:36   This could be an amazing computer that comes out of nowhere.

01:55:40   Well, I think you're kind of forgetting the Tim Cook factor, which is the only reason

01:55:43   I'm still entertaining the ideas of the silly MacBook Air continuation.

01:55:46   I mean, like, this is the Apple that kept the iPad 2 around for a long time, this is

01:55:50   the Apple that is rumored to keep the Apple Watch 1 around.

01:55:53   Like, what kind of company would continue selling a non-retina MacBook Air with USB-C

01:55:58   upgrade?

01:55:58   Because you could make that machine, put, you know, like you said, put a 15-watt CPU

01:56:02   in there with a USB-C supporting chipset, keep the same old crappy non-retina screen,

01:56:06   and just keep selling it. What kind of monster would do that? Tim Cook's apple.

01:56:10   That's true. I'm not saying it's likely. It seems really,

01:56:14   but I can't totally discount it because that's the thing. Like, hey, if people want to keep...

01:56:19   It's like taking it farther away from the whole speeds and feeds type thing,

01:56:24   because there's plenty of product categories where you have a popular model and you just keep selling

01:56:30   I think I just retweeted today someone posted a link to a

01:56:35   Tear down of you know that the shaver at a barbershop or that they shave like the back of your neck with the little

01:56:41   Ris of gang you know they show my whole head, but that John yeah well there you go one of those

01:56:45   That's 50 years old and then the same device

01:56:49   It purchased in 2016 so 50 years yeah

01:56:52   And they pull them apart to see whether like they're different on the inside because we've all seen that shaver our entire lives right

01:56:57   It's a 50-year-old product.

01:56:59   And if you look at a modern one,

01:57:00   they don't look that much different.

01:57:01   And guess what?

01:57:02   On the inside, they're also not that different.

01:57:04   Lots of industries sell a product that becomes popular

01:57:07   and they're like, "If people keep buying it,

01:57:09   "let's keep selling it.

01:57:11   "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

01:57:13   And you're like, "Yeah, but computers,

01:57:14   "you kinda have to update those."

01:57:16   And today's Apple's like, "Do you?

01:57:19   "Maybe we could keep selling it on Retina screen

01:57:21   "for a really, really long, people keep buying it.

01:57:24   "People love that MacBook Air,

01:57:25   "and yeah, they would like the computer

01:57:27   that Marco described even better,

01:57:28   but you know how cheap we can make that air now?

01:57:30   We paid for the tooling and those non-retina screens

01:57:32   are dirt cheap and like, you know,

01:57:35   how long can we sell the iPad to?

01:57:37   Well, education, blah, blah, blah.

01:57:39   Well, you know what, suckers keep buying this thing.

01:57:41   Why are we bending over backwards to make new models?

01:57:43   You know, so I don't like that idea.

01:57:45   I don't think that's a good fit for technology,

01:57:47   but Apple in recent years has really been stretching

01:57:50   the bounds of what we had previously considered

01:57:53   a reasonable thing for a technology company to do.

01:57:56   And their argument would be like,

01:57:58   look, if we keep selling them,

01:57:59   you think it's bad, oh, boo hoo.

01:58:02   Does your opinion matter?

01:58:03   Customers are buying them, right?

01:58:04   And then our counter is obviously like,

01:58:06   your long-term customer side is stupid,

01:58:08   you're being Pennywise, pound foolish, blah, blah, blah.

01:58:09   We can all have that debate.

01:58:11   But that's the only reason I'm not 100% discounting

01:58:14   the idea of an actual product labeled MacBook Air

01:58:17   with a non-retina screen and a USB-C port on the side,

01:58:19   which would just be an abomination

01:58:21   that no one wants to see lurch out onto the stage

01:58:23   in any sort of presentation.

01:58:25   but I live in fear of it.

01:58:28   - Well, that's all it is.

01:58:29   There's no way we mentioned the event.

01:58:30   It would just kind of happen

01:58:31   and they would hope nobody noticed on the website.

01:58:34   - People would notice.

01:58:35   Like, what?

01:58:36   Non-retinal, what?

01:58:38   - The more I think about this, the more I think,

01:58:40   well, obviously we know that there's a September 7th event,

01:58:43   but what I think about that is it will be an iPhone,

01:58:45   which everyone pretty much knows.

01:58:47   I think there will be Apple Watch 2

01:58:49   and I think that'll be the whole event.

01:58:51   I think there will be a brief event after this

01:58:55   that will include a possibly entirely refreshed line

01:59:00   of MacBooks and maybe even desktop Macs.

01:59:04   I'm looking at you, Mini and Pro, God help us,

01:59:09   I hope not the Pro. - Yeah, right.

01:59:12   - And also the new monitor that it seems is probably coming

01:59:16   I think will be at that second event.

01:59:20   What I'm not sure of is if the iPad will get any updates.

01:59:23   I don't think so, and even if it does,

01:59:25   where would that fall?

01:59:28   Do they put that in next week's event because it's iOS?

01:59:31   Do they put it in the Phantom later on event

01:59:36   because it's a computer replacement?

01:59:38   I'm not really sure.

01:59:39   But I would guess iPhone and watch next week,

01:59:44   which is not a very controversial guess,

01:59:47   but I do think there will be an event

01:59:49   that is after that that has many different kinds of Macs and a new display and whatever

01:59:56   else they might want to release before the end of the year.

01:59:59   Such an optimist. I would love for that to be true and like I said I really do think

02:00:03   that that little touch screen above the keyboard is something Apple should present to the public

02:00:07   itself and not just do press briefings. But the fantasy event that Casey has outlined where it's

02:00:14   like there'll be a whole second event and they'll update the Mac Mini and the Pro. Oh please,

02:00:18   I can't bring myself to believe that anymore.

02:00:20   I mean, I still believe that both those lines will be updated at some point in the future,

02:00:25   and I really do believe that new laptops will be announced this year.

02:00:28   But the idea of like, "Hey, we're revamping the whole Mac line, and even that obscure computer

02:00:34   that we never update gets an update, and even the Mac Pro, that's just too much.

02:00:38   I can't fit that in my brain."

02:00:40   - Yeah, no, no, to be clear, the Mac Mini Mac Pro, those are me reaching.

02:00:45   I'm not too confident about that.

02:00:46   But I think the laptop refresh is big enough to them that it'll get its own event.

02:00:51   And I think they feel like they have too much to talk about between iOS 10, iPhone 7, or whatever it's called,

02:00:57   backpedaling except for, not really backpedaling, but justifying the headphone jack, and watchOS 3,

02:01:04   and probably watch 2. I think that's more than enough for a two-hour event next week.

02:01:10   And thus, I think that, I hope and think that there will be enough laptop news to justify

02:01:17   a brief event subsequent to next week.

02:01:21   And my hope and my reach is that maybe it'll be more than just laptops.

02:01:25   >> Mm, I hope some part of that is right.

02:01:29   >> Yeah, I'm going to feel like a fool when I'm completely wrong.

02:01:32   But you know what?

02:01:33   There's no fun in betting the obvious.

02:01:34   >> The worst thing about the Max is that my brain has already moved on to thinking about

02:01:37   what the KB Lake ones will be like.

02:01:41   The other ones aren't even, it's just like, I've already moved on.

02:01:44   Because, you know, as they're pointing out in the chatroom, a lot of the stuff they have

02:01:47   is like, fixed function units for decoding new codecs for the, what is it, HEVC, the

02:01:54   265 one?

02:01:55   Yes.

02:01:56   Like, better hardware support for the higher performance profiles of that, and like, a

02:02:02   bunch of DRM crap, of course, so that you can basically like, all the streaming services

02:02:06   that want to send 4K, they demand new DRM crap so that your PC or your Mac is allowed

02:02:15   to show Netflix 4K content.

02:02:17   They do the happy handshake and support HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 and all.

02:02:23   I hate all that stuff.

02:02:24   That'll fix piracy.

02:02:25   Yes, it's so dumb.

02:02:28   I always think, where is the Blu-ray limit?

02:02:31   Because Apple didn't even include Blu-ray because it was too much of a pain in the ass.

02:02:34   at a certain point all this DRM stuff is gonna be like, "You know what? You can't watch

02:02:37   Netflix on your computer anymore because it's too much of a pain in the ass. Netflix is

02:02:40   a bag of hurt. Watch on your damn TV. Let the TV manufacturers deal with all this stuff."

02:02:45   But so far Apple still seems on board with it. Certainly Intel is. And these KV Lake

02:02:49   ones are the super low power ones. They're not the ones that are ever going to go into

02:02:53   desktop. I don't think any of the ones with the good GPUs that Apple wants, the Iris Pro

02:02:56   things are out. So it's not as if we're expecting these this year. But as we've said in past

02:03:02   What you can do Apple to show that you're dedicated to the Mac line is when these Kaby Lake things ship in volume, upgrade your computers to use them next year. How about that?

02:03:12   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Casper, Contentful and Eero. And we will see you next week.

02:03:18   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

02:03:25   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

02:03:31   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:03:36   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

02:03:41   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:03:46   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:03:56   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:04:00   Auntie Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse

02:04:07   It's accidental (It's accidental)

02:04:11   They didn't mean to, accidental (Accidental)

02:04:16   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

02:04:19   - In any case, I switched caselist.com to Hover.

02:04:24   - Ah. - I saw.

02:04:26   I saw you're tweeting about it.

02:04:28   - Did you use the valid transfer service?

02:04:30   - I did. - Nice.

02:04:32   - Yeah, so that was the thing.

02:04:34   - I'm always weird about giving them my password.

02:04:35   I always just do it myself.

02:04:37   - You could also just like, just change your password,

02:04:39   then give the new ones-- - I know, I know the procedure.

02:04:40   I just, it just feels weird. (laughing)

02:04:42   Like change it to test test and give it to,

02:04:44   Like I know the drill, but it just seems weird to me.

02:04:46   I just like, you know what, I'll just do it myself.

02:04:47   And I've come close so many times,

02:04:48   I'm like, this sucks so bad.

02:04:50   And they're like, no, let me just do it.

02:04:53   Eventually you get through and you find the secret place

02:04:55   in whatever crowd re-register you're using

02:04:57   where they let you unlock it and transfer.

02:04:59   And I think I have almost everything over to Hover now.

02:05:01   Every time they expire, I bring them over.

02:05:05   - Yeah, I'd never transferred a domain before.

02:05:07   And I was using, do you remember way, way back in the day,

02:05:13   it was popular to run servers out of your house,

02:05:16   but you were on dial-up or maybe you had an IP

02:05:20   that changed regularly on a cable modem.

02:05:22   - DineDNS. - Yep.

02:05:23   I was still using them up until two weeks ago.

02:05:26   - I'm still using no IP,

02:05:27   which is the same service as DineDNS.

02:05:29   - Yep, so I was using Dine,

02:05:31   which I always thought red is din,

02:05:33   but you are right, Marco.

02:05:34   I'm almost positive it's Dine.

02:05:35   - Yeah, you get Dine right, but you still call it mauve, huh?

02:05:38   - Yeah, it's mauve.

02:05:39   - Dine is the beginning of dynamic.

02:05:41   So move is the beginning of movie.

02:05:44   And it's a mavi file.

02:05:45   Yeah.

02:05:46   Let's go to the mavi's.

02:05:48   Let's all go to the mavi's.

02:05:52   I'm giving you an air high five, John Sirqui.

02:05:59   So hold on.

02:06:00   There you go.

02:06:00   [BEEPING]