184: Procedural Marriage Mistakes


00:00:00   It's the special episode time. I was doing a special episode of, uh, rectives.

00:00:04   What was the topic?

00:00:05   I don't know. What the hell is the topic ever on that show?

00:00:08   Your libido.

00:00:10   A mosquito.

00:00:11   Your libido.

00:00:12   Yep.

00:00:14   That was Smells Like Team Spirit, for those keeping track.

00:00:17   Smells Like Team Spirit was a band.

00:00:20   No, what? What?

00:00:22   Uh, it was a song by the band Nirvana.

00:00:24   I'm aware of the song.

00:00:26   Yeah, and in that song there were lyrics that rhymed a lot and I said one of them and that was a reference

00:00:31   John is explaining Nirvana to us. I've made the reference you had no reaction then I explained the reference came from still no reactions

00:00:38   I feel like I have to go deeper. I didn't think it was funny enough to react to

00:00:42   Music is like a series of sounds that people find pleasing

00:00:45   How this episode is gonna go is this how it's gonna start?

00:00:51   It is August. We just recorded a show two days ago and we're recording again due to this time is my vacation schedule for once

00:00:58   Nothing really has happened

00:01:00   I mean if some some things have happened like in the world

00:01:03   But nothing really has happened in tech with the exception that we have some Twitter update. That's kind of interesting. But other than that

00:01:09   What else is going on? Can we can we dig a little deeper in this vacation thing you speak of?

00:01:15   How do you know whether or not you're on vacation just whether or not you wake up in your own bed? Oh

00:01:21   Wow, yeah, that is how this episode is gonna be that yeah. Yeah. So let me rephrase by saying I'll be out of town

00:01:28   So, yes, I will be out of town next week

00:01:36   Are you taking Adam with you? Cuz that's how you can tell right actually, yeah, that's true

00:01:40   And the whole family is going including Adam and Hobbs. Oh

00:01:44   Ed hops Oh interest and hops. Yeah. All right all kitty aside. Are you willing to share where you're going?

00:01:49   or would you rather keep that close to the vest?

00:01:51   - We're going to the beach,

00:01:52   just like what everyone else does.

00:01:54   We figure it's not hot enough here.

00:01:56   We need to go somewhere a little bit hotter.

00:01:58   - Yeah, I can tell you all about hot these days.

00:01:59   Actually, today wasn't terrible.

00:02:00   It was only about 90, 95,

00:02:02   and I don't know what that is in Celsius

00:02:03   because I believe in units that make sense.

00:02:05   Anyway, we should probably start with some follow-up

00:02:07   now that I've given everyone at least a little bit of grief.

00:02:10   Mark would just drop to hints a second ago.

00:02:12   Twitter has enabled the quality filter for everyone,

00:02:16   and as far as we can tell,

00:02:18   It's the same quality filter that verified users get.

00:02:20   But I don't think Marco and I noticed this,

00:02:23   but we have just confirmed it.

00:02:25   I think John is the one that noticed this.

00:02:27   It is on by default, which is super interesting

00:02:30   and not the case for verified users.

00:02:33   So verified users who have not turned this on,

00:02:35   they wouldn't have this on.

00:02:38   And Marco looked at the Overcast account, which is verified,

00:02:41   and your quality filter is not on, is that correct?

00:02:44   - Yeah, basically, like if you had the setting before,

00:02:47   it will keep your setting, even if you never touched it.

00:02:50   So it's not like a triple state,

00:02:52   like one, zero, or null kind of thing,

00:02:54   where null would just be the default.

00:02:56   It's not that.

00:02:57   It's actually like if you had it before

00:02:59   and you didn't set it, you have it off now.

00:03:01   And it doesn't really matter.

00:03:02   Anyway, so this is great news,

00:03:04   because this is exactly what we were complaining about

00:03:07   last episode and last time we talked about this also.

00:03:09   Why wouldn't you have this available for everybody?

00:03:12   And last episode, I even said,

00:03:15   I'd even go as far as to say

00:03:16   that they should be on by default.

00:03:18   And when I was saying that, I had no hope

00:03:21   that they would actually ever do this.

00:03:24   Both making the feature available for everybody

00:03:26   and also making it on by default,

00:03:28   either of those things would have shocked me.

00:03:30   So to have them both happen,

00:03:32   and for them to both happen very quickly,

00:03:34   it's a pretty major step.

00:03:36   And first of all, it's a little bit of a slap in the face

00:03:38   that apparently there was no reason really

00:03:41   why they couldn't have done this for everybody already,

00:03:43   like before this, but okay.

00:03:45   Well, let's set that aside for now.

00:03:47   We have it now.

00:03:48   So, positive thoughts, we have it now.

00:03:51   This is very good, this is way better than I expected.

00:03:53   This is a sign that maybe Twitter is starting to take

00:03:57   their abuse problems and their trolling problems

00:04:00   and their just general jerkiness problems.

00:04:02   Maybe they're starting to take that a little more seriously.

00:04:04   And honestly, maybe not.

00:04:06   This could be just like an easy quick fix

00:04:09   they just threw out there because they had it ready.

00:04:11   But even doing this is a big step.

00:04:13   And if it bodes well for future steps in this direction,

00:04:17   additional steps in this direction, that's good too.

00:04:20   So I'm hopeful about it.

00:04:22   I'm a little bit reserved on that,

00:04:24   but I'm hopeful that Twitter is starting

00:04:26   to really care about this problem

00:04:28   and take steps to improve their service for everybody

00:04:31   and not just celebrities.

00:04:33   - Yep.

00:04:34   John, your thoughts?

00:04:35   - The verified thing is still out there,

00:04:37   like the idea that if you have an account

00:04:39   that frequently people are impersonating you

00:04:41   and stirring things up by tweeting things

00:04:43   that pretend to be you, that people then

00:04:45   retweet and screenshot and think you said and come back.

00:04:48   You know, like the whole idea of verifying that, yes, I

00:04:51   am really the person with this name and this picture

00:04:56   and all these attributes, that should still be open,

00:04:59   even though the quality filter is open to everybody.

00:05:01   So there's still a ways to go with that.

00:05:02   And like the quality filter, it's the type of thing

00:05:05   where they totally could.

00:05:06   Like, the feature already exists.

00:05:08   In some ways, it's easier to enable for everybody.

00:05:10   In some ways it's harder because there is that human component of verifying your identity

00:05:14   or whatever.

00:05:15   And as we said in the past, find charge money for it or something like that.

00:05:18   But verification continues to be the app store of Twitter where rejections don't make any

00:05:25   sense and no one can figure it out and it's all mysterious.

00:05:28   Recently the ATP FM account got rejected for verification.

00:05:32   And I saw a couple other puzzling rejections.

00:05:35   But on the other hand, other people are getting verified so no one knows how it works.

00:05:39   Anyway, I guess that's the next stepping stone in.

00:05:42   Easy things Twitter could have done

00:05:43   a long time ago but didn't.

00:05:45   - Yeah, and also, to give them credit also,

00:05:48   the whole verified status is problematic,

00:05:52   as we've discussed before, and one of my core arguments

00:05:55   about verified being a problem was it was more okay

00:06:00   when it was only about identity verification,

00:06:03   and it starts becoming increasingly problematic

00:06:06   as features or status are tied to it.

00:06:09   And so what they've done here is they've just removed

00:06:12   a major feature that was exclusive to verified people before

00:06:16   and they made that available for everybody.

00:06:17   So it has taken a big chunk out of the problem.

00:06:20   The problems are still there.

00:06:22   There are still lots of other problems with verified status

00:06:24   being what it is and bringing what it does

00:06:26   and having this weird inconsistent

00:06:28   subjective review process.

00:06:30   But removing a major feature of it as an exclusive

00:06:33   and making it available to everybody

00:06:35   is a big step in the right direction.

00:06:37   - Yep, that sounds excellent.

00:06:39   John, you are poorer in the last few days

00:06:43   than you were the few days prior.

00:06:44   Would you like to tell us about that?

00:06:46   - Yeah, I finally bought a camera.

00:06:47   I know we had lots of discussions about it on past shows.

00:06:51   No big surprise, I bought the camera

00:06:52   that we've been talking about,

00:06:54   the camera that I had tested for a week.

00:06:56   The camera was pretty much a no-brainer for me,

00:06:59   'cause like, and as many people,

00:07:01   as soon as I mentioned cameras,

00:07:02   all the camera people wrote in

00:07:03   to tell me all the different cameras that they like,

00:07:04   And it was good to hear different people's stories about what they liked about their

00:07:07   camera.

00:07:08   Some people were trying to sell me a Micro Four Thirds, some people were trying to sell

00:07:10   me on the APS-C Fugees and the availability of lenses and how cheap they are and how good

00:07:15   quality they are.

00:07:17   Lots of different arguments on all sides, but the Sony is the devil I know sort of and

00:07:23   it has several attributes that I really like specifically in terms of first photos for

00:07:27   action shots and how good it is at finding focus very quickly.

00:07:31   We should point out once again you have again failed to mention the model number.

00:07:34   is the Sony a6300 right? I mentioned that before yes. Not on this episode I was sitting

00:07:40   here waiting to add it to the show notes waiting and waiting and waiting. You guys should both

00:07:44   already know it already yeah and the small size because a lot of the other APS-C cameras

00:07:49   like oh it's also an APS-C but the Sony's are really very small and that that accounts

00:07:53   for how I want to use it because I'm not quite ready to sign up for the big giant camera.

00:07:57   Sony lenses are the situation is not as great as other cameras I acknowledge that so that

00:08:01   my most difficult part. I knew I was going to get the body. I got the body without any

00:08:05   lenses. I knew I didn't want the kit lens because I had it and it's not great. And so

00:08:08   I had to decide what I was going to get. The easiest and the first lens purchase I got

00:08:13   was the 50mm 1.8 that Sony sells because I had rented that. I'd used it. I'd usually

00:08:19   take pictures of people's faces indoors with low light and I've gotten a lot of good pictures

00:08:23   out of it and I really liked it. And yes, as many people point out, 50mm is a little

00:08:27   bit close. You have to back up a lot to get people framed the right way in an indoor environment.

00:08:32   But that's somewhat problematic. But the thing is, oh, two parts of this. One, the Sony 35 and

00:08:38   the other 35s I saw were all not as good lenses as the 50 in terms of optical quality and if it has

00:08:46   stabilization and all these other things. So the 50 was the, they were not as good lenses and they

00:08:50   cost similar amounts. So you're gonna spend $350 for a worse 35 millimeter. I'd rather spend that

00:08:54   $350 on a better 50. And the second part is I like to get candid shots. I don't like pose

00:09:00   shots that much. And having a little bit of extra zoom, even indoors, lets you get a nice

00:09:05   good head and shoulders portrait of someone laughing in a natural way when they don't

00:09:10   know you're taking a picture if you're not right in their face. So I like the 50, even

00:09:14   if it is slightly challenging in some situations. And I really like the pictures that come out

00:09:18   of it. And then the next one I got, and I waffled in this for a long time, but I eventually

00:09:23   pull the trigger is the really flat 20mm pancake lens, which is not a great lens and it's pretty

00:09:30   expensive for what you get.

00:09:31   But in the end I had to say, look, you can't argue with the size.

00:09:35   It makes the camera much smaller, much lighter.

00:09:37   And it's not a bad lens, it's just not probably worth the money I paid for it, but I got that.

00:09:42   And I also got a bunch of lens protectors, which is not a thing that I had thought about

00:09:45   before, but I read a couple articles and I'm like, "Oh, you should always get a lens protector."

00:09:47   And they're like, "You know what?

00:09:48   It is easier to clean a lens protector than it is to clean a lens."

00:09:51   I imagine if there's dirt on lens protector,

00:09:53   that's worse than if there's dirt on the lens,

00:09:54   so maybe I'll come to regret this, but they're cheap.

00:09:57   So I bought 'em, and I'm gonna give that a go.

00:10:00   And I've been taking pictures,

00:10:01   just trying to find excuses to take pictures

00:10:03   with the stuff around the house and everything.

00:10:05   I've been playing with the eye auto focus on this.

00:10:09   Do you have that assigned to one of the buttons

00:10:10   on your camera, Marco?

00:10:12   - I have not assigned to a button.

00:10:13   My camera does have the eye focus.

00:10:15   I tried it for a few days up front.

00:10:18   I ended up turning it off because sometimes,

00:10:21   like most autofocus systems,

00:10:24   if you're holding the trigger button down

00:10:27   and it doesn't have focus,

00:10:29   it'll wait until it does have focus

00:10:30   before it shoots the picture.

00:10:32   And there were a couple of instances where I missed a shot

00:10:35   that I could have gotten because it had focused distance wise

00:10:40   but it had not found the eye in time.

00:10:42   And it was just like a second too late finding the eye

00:10:44   and that made me miss a shot.

00:10:46   So I turned it off and I haven't experimented with it

00:10:48   since then, that was a long time ago,

00:10:50   and there have been a number of firmware updates since then,

00:10:52   so maybe I should try it, but.

00:10:53   - So mine and probably yours as well,

00:10:55   you can adjust that of like, what has priority?

00:10:58   Should I take the picture when you push the button

00:10:59   or should I not take the picture until you have focus?

00:11:01   And there's like three or four settings in that range.

00:11:04   The extremes of the range are, look,

00:11:05   when I press the button, take the picture,

00:11:06   regardless of whether you have focus,

00:11:07   and the other extreme is never take the picture

00:11:09   until you have focus.

00:11:10   And the other thing with iAutoFocus,

00:11:12   it's weird on this camera 'cause there's,

00:11:13   it's not assigned to anything by default,

00:11:15   so you wouldn't even know the feature existed

00:11:16   unless you custom assigned it to a button,

00:11:18   and I assigned it to a button that you have to hold down.

00:11:20   So I'm half holding the shutter,

00:11:21   and then my thumb is pressing the eye auto focus.

00:11:24   And if it doesn't find an eye,

00:11:25   I just let go and go back to regular portrait thing.

00:11:28   'Cause you can tell the green circles on their face,

00:11:29   it's in like, I found a face,

00:11:31   I'm gonna take a picture of it.

00:11:32   But if I push down the little eye auto focus thing,

00:11:35   if it doesn't immediately find an eye,

00:11:37   then I'm like, all right, we'll forget about that.

00:11:38   But if it does immediately find an eye,

00:11:40   and I keep that held down,

00:11:40   it will track that eyeball as the person moves.

00:11:42   It's pretty amazing.

00:11:44   And the other feature of this camera,

00:11:45   I find hilarious, again, you're probably hesitant too, is facial recognition and ranking.

00:11:51   So you take small pictures of everyone in your family, like their face, looking at the

00:11:55   camera, and the camera remembers them.

00:11:57   And if all three of them are in the frame, it will prioritize them in the order that

00:12:01   you select of who's going to be in focus.

00:12:03   Wow.

00:12:04   It's pretty grim when you think about it.

00:12:05   It's like, "Sorry, sorry, second child, you're not as important."

00:12:08   You have to pick an order, right?

00:12:09   But if you think about it, it's actually, you shouldn't think about it in terms of taking

00:12:12   pictures of your family.

00:12:13   Think about it like taking a picture of like you go on a trip to New York City and you

00:12:16   want to take a picture of your kid on a New York City street.

00:12:18   It won't accidentally grab focus on a stranger who's walking by, right?

00:12:22   It will always prioritize your kid looking at you and never accidentally grab focus on

00:12:26   someone else.

00:12:27   So lots of cool software-based features that are all really fast and really good.

00:12:31   That's probably why this thing eats batteries.

00:12:34   And so yeah, I really am happy with the body of the camera.

00:12:37   The lens situation is a little grim.

00:12:39   gonna rent a zoom for my wife's vacation and if we like it we'll probably buy it but no

00:12:47   zooms out there are calling out to me in terms of price performance.

00:12:51   I think what I'll end up with is a way too expensive like that 17 to whatever it is 17

00:12:56   to 70 thing that's not a great lens but it's very compact and very versatile and then maybe

00:13:03   something with like a 300 millimeter range that's just actually a crappy camera but just

00:13:07   gives the max zoom range on it.

00:13:08   I don't know.

00:13:09   Anyway, I think I bought enough camera crap for a while,

00:13:11   so it's all sitting here on my desk.

00:13:12   And I'm taking pictures of,

00:13:15   mostly taking pictures of my family playing Pokemon Go,

00:13:17   'cause that's what they do when we're all home,

00:13:18   is they'll go out for walks and capture Pokemon

00:13:22   and taking pictures in the supermarket

00:13:24   and generally being annoying to all my kids

00:13:25   and just trying out the camera.

00:13:26   But it's lots of fun, I'm happy with it.

00:13:28   And like I said, in three or four years,

00:13:30   I'll just buy a full frame camera.

00:13:32   - Yeah, so a couple of notes.

00:13:33   First of all, good call on the pancake lens,

00:13:36   the 20 millimeter pancake.

00:13:38   I wish that lens was available in full frame, but it's not.

00:13:41   So I can't really use it.

00:13:43   But for our 5D Mark IIs that we've had as our big camera

00:13:47   for a long time, ever since they came out

00:13:49   until I got this camera, a couple years back

00:13:52   when it came out, we got the Canon 40 millimeter EF pancake.

00:13:55   And that is a great lens, and it's like 150 bucks.

00:13:58   And it's a really good quality lens,

00:14:00   and it's incredibly small.

00:14:01   And the effect that a very small light lens has

00:14:05   on the way your camera feels and how you handle it,

00:14:09   where you bring it, how often you bring it,

00:14:11   it's a massive difference.

00:14:13   And so I strongly suggest if anybody has a camera

00:14:17   and you don't have any really small pancake

00:14:20   or pancake-like lenses, just get one and try it

00:14:23   because you will bring your camera more places,

00:14:25   you'll be amazed how much of a difference it makes.

00:14:29   If you have a Canon, I think they recently made

00:14:31   a second pancake, I haven't been paying

00:14:33   that much attention.

00:14:34   I think there's a wider angle one,

00:14:36   like somewhere in the 20s,

00:14:37   but there's the 40 millimeter pancake that's fantastic,

00:14:40   and whatever pancake lenses have become popular

00:14:43   in the last five years or so,

00:14:44   so whatever system you have,

00:14:47   look for the pancake lens in a somewhat wide focal length

00:14:51   and use it, and you'll be very surprised how good it is,

00:14:55   and how easy it is to carry your camera around with it.

00:14:58   And in fact, for that reason, my camera,

00:15:00   Like I have the 35 2.8 prime, the 55 1.8,

00:15:05   and the 90 macro in the Sony FE line.

00:15:09   And I almost always have the 35 millimeter 2.8 on there

00:15:14   because it is just so small.

00:15:15   And it is not a pancake lens.

00:15:17   It is not quite that short distance-wise,

00:15:21   but it is still very small.

00:15:24   And just the difference that makes on how the camera feels

00:15:28   is just immense, I've been saying.

00:15:29   So definitely get a pancake lens if you can.

00:15:32   Secondly, I will point out also that I'm kind of surprised

00:15:37   you picked this camera based on our discussions

00:15:39   because for what you wanted, which is like,

00:15:43   you basically wanted a super zoom replacement,

00:15:46   and this isn't that.

00:15:48   Sony has the RX10 and there's many other brands

00:15:51   that have super zooms as well,

00:15:53   many of which are very good.

00:15:54   And all of our listeners wrote in to say

00:15:56   that the micro four thirds,

00:15:59   and I think some people might have pointed out Fuji X

00:16:02   for this attribute as well,

00:16:03   but especially micro four thirds

00:16:05   was very good for zoom lenses

00:16:07   because of the smaller sensors

00:16:08   and therefore being able to have smaller lenses

00:16:11   and less complex lenses for big zoom reach.

00:16:15   So I am kind of surprised you didn't go with that

00:16:17   for that reason.

00:16:18   All these systems have these different pluses and minuses

00:16:20   as we've discussed.

00:16:22   Micro four thirds really excels in things

00:16:24   being generally a little bit cheaper,

00:16:26   Lenses being a little bit cheaper,

00:16:28   a lot more lens choice 'cause they've just been around

00:16:30   for so long and so many different brands

00:16:31   make the lenses for it.

00:16:33   Sony really excels in sensor quality

00:16:36   and recently in focus advances,

00:16:39   autofocus advances in mirrorless.

00:16:41   But overall, Sony really especially excels

00:16:44   in having really amazing sensors,

00:16:46   getting lots of megapixels with very low noise

00:16:49   and incredible dynamic range being able to be captured.

00:16:52   Sony just kicks butt in that area.

00:16:54   and where Sony falls short is some of the kind of pro-e

00:16:59   type handling stuff and also zoom lenses in particular.

00:17:05   The primes that are available for Sony cameras,

00:17:08   especially the full frame ones, are generally amazing.

00:17:11   They're a little expensive, but they're generally amazing.

00:17:13   Zooms have always been Sony's weak point.

00:17:16   The Sony lineup has had fairly mediocre zoom lenses

00:17:20   in it most of the time.

00:17:21   There's now, very recently, there's been a couple

00:17:24   of extremely high-end ones that are huge, heavy,

00:17:26   and very expensive in the new Sony G Master line,

00:17:29   but basically everything below that

00:17:31   has been really hit or miss, mostly miss.

00:17:34   So I am a little bit surprised you picked it,

00:17:36   given all that.

00:17:37   - Well, so like I said, I looked at Super Zooms first

00:17:40   before I was even considering all this better camera thing,

00:17:43   'cause that's all my wife's thing,

00:17:44   like hey, she wants a better camera, right?

00:17:46   I was just like, well, my Super Zoom's getting kinda old,

00:17:48   maybe look at another one,

00:17:49   and I looked at all the Super Zooms that are out there,

00:17:51   and they all seemed like worse overall than my camera.

00:17:55   Like they were better in many ways,

00:17:56   but also worse in ways that I didn't like.

00:17:58   Either the zoom wasn't as big or like the RX 10,

00:18:00   like that thing is gigantic.

00:18:01   Do you realize how big that is?

00:18:02   It is huge.

00:18:03   And again, that was one of my things.

00:18:04   I didn't want it to be too big.

00:18:06   I didn't want to spend $1,500

00:18:08   for a non interchangeable lens camera.

00:18:11   It just seemed weird to me.

00:18:12   And, you know, I still have my Panasonic.

00:18:15   It still works.

00:18:16   I can still use it.

00:18:17   But the thing that was the real convincer

00:18:19   and the, you know, the reason I'm glad I did this

00:18:20   I rented it and I took it for the one time of year I take the most pictures.

00:18:24   I take pictures throughout the year, probably not as much as I should, but when we go on

00:18:28   our vacation to Long Island, I take literally thousands of pictures.

00:18:32   That is the most pictures I take all year in the most demanding circumstances of the

00:18:35   most different people in the most different environments.

00:18:38   And the super zoom for the waves thing, taking pictures in the waves, like I said, I brought

00:18:42   both cameras to the beach, used the super zoom a lot, but by the end of the trip, even

00:18:45   when we were at the ocean, I was using this camera.

00:18:47   And yeah, I couldn't get up as close and it probably helps that the days that I was doing

00:18:51   it to the beach that the surf was in close.

00:18:53   So maybe it would have been different if it was farther away.

00:18:54   But like I said, I still had the other camera.

00:18:56   And even with these things zoomed out, I was happier with the zoomed out pictures from

00:19:00   this camera that I could crop with the crappy zoom lens that I rented.

00:19:03   Like I didn't rent a very expensive zoom lens, like a $400 zoom lens or something.

00:19:09   And the range on it was, you know, half to a third of what it is on the super zoom.

00:19:13   And still this came out ahead.

00:19:14   And as I said, the reason I don't want to get expensive cameras, once you take pictures

00:19:17   indoors without a flash with a decent camera, like you can't go back to the other way.

00:19:22   That's why I don't like to hold Marco's cameras.

00:19:24   It's depressing.

00:19:25   You know, you don't want to think about it like, and that's why I don't want to go Marco

00:19:28   4/3.

00:19:29   It's like the whole reason I'm spending money is I want a bigger sensor that can get more

00:19:32   light.

00:19:33   And yes, that means the lenses are going to be more expensive and I could get better zoom

00:19:36   lenses for the micro 4/3.

00:19:37   It was like, this is what I want.

00:19:38   I want, I want a big sensor.

00:19:40   I want pictures that I couldn't take with any other camera.

00:19:44   Can't take with my iPhone, can't take with my SuperZoom because there's just not enough

00:19:47   light.

00:19:48   And this is what that gives me.

00:19:49   And can I use it for all of my Zoom things for that one week a year when I need Zoom?

00:19:54   The answer is apparently yes.

00:19:55   Like it's a different set of compromises.

00:19:57   But I do take pictures indoors and other things when I'm on vacation.

00:20:00   And like, you know, the proof is in the pudding.

00:20:02   I had both cameras there.

00:20:03   I use both of them.

00:20:04   And like if you watch the ratio by the last trip to the ocean, it was like, I'm not even

00:20:07   taking that one out of the bag.

00:20:08   I'm just gonna use this one for everything just because everything was so much better about it except for the zoom. So

00:20:12   You know, so I'll keep that I'll keep my out for super zooms

00:20:15   I don't rule out like later if they make if Panasonic for example makes another camera like mine that is just

00:20:21   Updated in all the ways but maybe even a little bit more compact and maybe optically a little bit better over the same zoom range

00:20:27   I'll probably buy it right because those are cheap

00:20:29   They're like, you know, six or seven hundred dollars compared to you know, these interchangeable lens cameras or things a billion dollars

00:20:34   So I'm pretty happy with it.

00:20:36   - Yeah, I mean, you'll pay that much for a good zoom lens

00:20:38   at least on the camera you have now.

00:20:41   - Way more than that.

00:20:41   For a crappy zoom lens with a short range is a thousand bucks.

00:20:44   - Yeah, exactly.

00:20:45   - So it's rough.

00:20:47   And I'm just thinking about like day to day,

00:20:49   I think this will make me take more pictures,

00:20:51   just normal stuff of like my family, you know,

00:20:54   around the house and going out and taking walks and stuff,

00:20:57   because I'm not gonna attach a big zoom.

00:20:58   We'll probably just have the little pancake on there,

00:21:00   but it's nice when we go out like after school

00:21:02   and after dinner when it's kind of dusk and it's dark,

00:21:05   that I can actually get usable pictures

00:21:06   of my family walking under the street lights

00:21:10   with this camera without a flash.

00:21:12   And that just wasn't, there wasn't an environment

00:21:14   where I would take any pictures before.

00:21:15   I wouldn't try my phone and I wouldn't bring my SuperZoom

00:21:17   because the SuperZoom is actually,

00:21:19   it's not heavier than this,

00:21:20   but physically dimension-wise it's bigger than this camera

00:21:23   with the pancake lens on it, right?

00:21:25   So I feel like this is a good compromise for me now

00:21:28   and I'm sure I'll learn a lot using it.

00:21:30   and then we'll see where we go from here.

00:21:33   - I think these days, so many photographic needs

00:21:36   are solved so well by just your iPhone,

00:21:39   and the progress that iPhone cameras have made

00:21:42   has been so remarkable, but the areas that they will

00:21:46   never be able to match standalone cameras are in

00:21:50   are areas where you just need a large, advanced,

00:21:53   and expensive sensor.

00:21:55   iPhones have a lot of constraints on that camera.

00:21:58   Obviously, size is the most obvious one,

00:21:59   but also cost is a big one.

00:22:01   That camera module, the entire camera module

00:22:03   has to cost, what, like 30 bucks or something?

00:22:04   I forget what the component breakdowns show it as,

00:22:06   but it's somewhere in that range.

00:22:08   It's not a ton of money that goes into that.

00:22:11   And so you have no space, you have very little money,

00:22:15   and you have people to mass produce a ton of them.

00:22:17   That's always gonna be more limited

00:22:19   than what you can sell in a dedicated high-end camera

00:22:22   for $1,000.

00:22:23   Like that can have this big body around it

00:22:26   and have this big sensor that's way bigger

00:22:28   than the phone sensor and have this giant lens

00:22:29   taking off the front of it, giant relative to phone sensors.

00:22:33   And phones are gonna always be able to have

00:22:35   more advanced processing and software

00:22:38   and tricks they can do with the software

00:22:40   to make up for some of these shortcomings

00:22:43   that they have in their just tiny little cheap optics.

00:22:46   However, I think one area where they are always

00:22:49   going to struggle against big cameras

00:22:51   is in low light sensitivity,

00:22:54   and in dynamic range a little bit too,

00:22:56   but especially low light sensitivity

00:22:57   just because that is something where

00:22:58   the physics are just working so much against them.

00:23:01   And that's probably never gonna change

00:23:03   'cause phones are never going to become these,

00:23:05   you know, two-inch thick things that have this

00:23:09   thousand dollar sensor and an amazing glass in front of them.

00:23:12   The market, that's just not where they're going.

00:23:15   So I think if you're going to buy a camera

00:23:18   that is not just your phone, it benefits you a lot

00:23:21   to get one that is exceptionally good in low light

00:23:24   just to really maximize the difference

00:23:26   and the justification for having a separate camera at all?

00:23:30   - Well, again, you can't ever say never

00:23:32   because I always picture a phone

00:23:33   that's like this magical thin thing

00:23:36   where the entire back of the phone

00:23:38   is basically one giant sensor

00:23:39   plus this amazing computing power

00:23:41   to somehow combine all the light hitting that sensor

00:23:44   without a lens in front of it to figure,

00:23:45   you know what I mean?

00:23:46   Like light gathering, the task would be,

00:23:48   I will gather all the light for you

00:23:49   and then magic computers will figure out

00:23:52   all the light hitting it.

00:23:53   Like maybe there's things that can tell

00:23:54   what angle they hit the sensor at

00:23:55   instead of just levels of light.

00:23:56   Like you do have enough surface area basically

00:23:58   for to imagine a future phone using an as yet

00:24:01   undetermined technology where you would gather

00:24:03   all the light hitting the back of the phone.

00:24:04   That's plenty to have amazing low light photography,

00:24:07   but that technology is nowhere on the horizon.

00:24:11   But I just, you know, like it's not,

00:24:12   we won't always be stuck with pinholes,

00:24:14   is what I'm saying.

00:24:15   So in the distant future, that could be solved.

00:24:18   But for our lifetime, I think we're probably,

00:24:20   everything you said there holds.

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00:25:20   (jazz music)

00:25:22   We got a couple of people asking us,

00:25:25   or I think I might have just been the same person twice,

00:25:27   asking us why we didn't mention DSLRs at all

00:25:31   in these camera discussions recently.

00:25:34   And I have my reasons.

00:25:35   Do you guys have any reasons before I jump in?

00:25:38   - Too big to carry.

00:25:39   - That's a good one.

00:25:40   - I mean, I'm serious.

00:25:41   I'm not trying to be funny.

00:25:42   Like, the reason I, one of the biggest reasons

00:25:44   I went micro four thirds, it was less about cost,

00:25:47   so that was a small factor,

00:25:49   But more, I knew I was already going to have something bigger than I really wanted that

00:25:53   I had to carry.

00:25:55   And if I'm going to do that, I want to try to make it as small as possible.

00:25:59   And like Jon had talked about earlier, to my requirements, the Micro Four Thirds was

00:26:05   a really good, happy medium.

00:26:07   And I didn't want to go as big as a DSLR, although I went back and forth and back and

00:26:12   forth about it.

00:26:13   And in fact, I think I bothered, underscored Marco a lot, asking, "Well, what about this?

00:26:17   What about this?

00:26:18   What about this?

00:26:19   and eventually ended up on 4/3 just because I didn't want to carry it.

00:26:22   Yeah, for me it was size, but also like, I mean, you know, we've known for years of even just

00:26:27   tangentially, you know, not really in the camera community, but just like touching on it because

00:26:32   I like read things in deeper view. And that's, you know, that's how I figured out what super zooms

00:26:36   again, everything, you just see which way the wind is blowing, and the wind was blowing away from DSLRs

00:26:40   for regular people. And I had a 5D Mark II borrowed from a particular source for my brother's wedding

00:26:48   that I use to take pictures. So I know how big they are, I know how heavy they are, I

00:26:52   know how the little mirror flappy thing and all the other business like it just seems

00:26:57   like it's kind of like Markowitz's BMW versus his Tesla. The mirrorless one seems like,

00:27:01   oh, this is clearly the future. And even though because the market has been for so long, the

00:27:05   DSLRs are the high end, I'm not sure that will always entirely hold. And it just it

00:27:13   was way outside that, you know, the mirrorless camera I brought is the whole selling point

00:27:18   is that it's so small, that the lenses look comically big on it because it's so darn

00:27:22   small and you can't get a DSLR that big, there's not enough room.

00:27:26   The main reason why I don't have a DSLR anymore is what you guys said. It's mostly

00:27:30   about size and also about the way the wind is blowing. One of the things that swayed

00:27:35   me, we bought the 5D Mark II when it came out in 2008 and Tiff and I used a pair of

00:27:42   those for all of her Profoto stuff, it went through all that, it went through a lot of

00:27:48   of our high-end hobby and of course all of our family stuff

00:27:51   until about a year ago when I got my A7R II.

00:27:55   And one of the reasons I upgraded finally,

00:27:58   I mean first of all, a camera that is in common use

00:28:02   from 2008 until 2015 is pretty good.

00:28:06   That's a pretty great run.

00:28:08   And that kinda shows one of the reasons

00:28:11   it was able to go that long, and it's still a great camera.

00:28:14   It's falling behind on a lot of the tech areas now,

00:28:16   but when you get a really high-end, full-frame,

00:28:20   professional-grade camera, it lasts.

00:28:22   Similar to a John's Mac Pro,

00:28:24   which is at the same age, actually.

00:28:25   (laughing)

00:28:27   But anyway, the thing with SLRs though is,

00:28:31   yeah, they are really big.

00:28:32   You can't just casually throw a full-frame SLR

00:28:36   into your bag.

00:28:37   You gotta really decide to take that with you.

00:28:41   They're big, they weigh a lot, the lenses are big,

00:28:44   they weigh a lot.

00:28:44   I wasn't that convinced that the size difference

00:28:47   would matter that much until I lived with the Sony

00:28:51   for a little while, and then I picked up Tiff's camera

00:28:53   to do something with one time, and I was like,

00:28:55   oh my God, it felt like I was picking up

00:28:58   an aircraft carrier, like what is this thing?

00:29:00   How did I possibly use this for that long?

00:29:04   But that being said though, there are still differences,

00:29:08   and mainly, while the mirrorless cameras

00:29:13   have all the action going with a lot of the tech advances

00:29:15   these days, and in particular, a lot of the lens

00:29:18   advancements these days, I would still hesitate

00:29:20   to call them professional cameras.

00:29:23   Because pro, obviously it's a very loaded word

00:29:26   in a lot of markets, and it is mostly used

00:29:28   for marketing in most places.

00:29:29   And it goes both ways.

00:29:32   Companies put pro, put the name pro on things

00:29:36   that aren't necessarily quote professional grade,

00:29:38   and a lot of people who aren't professionals

00:29:41   buy pro gear aspirationally.

00:29:43   There's a lot of like vagary in what that means.

00:29:48   However, when you're shooting things with a pro camera,

00:29:53   you need certain attributes that I don't think

00:29:56   any of the mirrorless vendors offer.

00:29:58   Certainly Sony doesn't offer them.

00:30:00   First of all, you need the battery

00:30:01   to not be as much of a problem as it is.

00:30:03   I mean, that's number one with the Sonys

00:30:05   is they are awesome in so many ways

00:30:07   but the battery life is terrible.

00:30:08   and part of that is because you have to drive

00:30:11   this LCD screen in the viewfinder

00:30:13   and in the back display so often,

00:30:16   and SLRs get away with only having the back review screen

00:30:20   and having optical viewfinders,

00:30:21   so you're seeing through the lens,

00:30:23   you're not lighting up a screen for all that looking time.

00:30:25   - I think I recall seeing a battery case for your phone,

00:30:29   or for somebody's phone, have you seen those things?

00:30:31   - Through the camera, you mean?

00:30:32   - Yeah, it's just a big giant battery.

00:30:34   - Yeah, I mean, there's battery grips,

00:30:36   and they basically like shove this protrusion

00:30:39   into the battery port and have this big base in the camera

00:30:41   that usually holds two or three batteries.

00:30:43   And that's something, it obviously makes this camera

00:30:46   a lot larger and heavier, and that reduces

00:30:49   a lot of the advantages it has over SLR.

00:30:52   But also, you know, just SLRs are just larger in general,

00:30:54   so SLR batteries can be physically larger,

00:30:56   they can have way more capacity,

00:30:57   and on top of all that, they're doing less

00:31:00   'cause they aren't lighting up two screens all the time.

00:31:01   So-- - Now hold on,

00:31:02   how often are you charging your Sony though?

00:31:04   because my Micro Four Thirds, I charge once a month,

00:31:09   and even when I was at the beach snapping a ton of pictures,

00:31:12   I might've used maybe 50% of the battery,

00:31:16   and it has two LCDs, just like you're describing.

00:31:19   Are you charging your Sony every day

00:31:22   when you're on a vacation

00:31:23   or when you're taking a lot of pictures?

00:31:24   - You have to.

00:31:25   - God, that's terrible.

00:31:26   - Well, see, I was worried about the battery life

00:31:30   'cause on DPReview, they always give number of shots

00:31:33   for your battery capacity,

00:31:34   And my Panasonic is actually pretty good.

00:31:36   I forget what they had it rated as,

00:31:37   like 400 something or 500 something.

00:31:39   But when I think like, oh, I take a lot of pictures,

00:31:42   like I would always bring, I have a spare battery.

00:31:44   I always bring the spare battery to the beach with me

00:31:46   with my Panasonic and I never needed to use it.

00:31:47   I think maybe one year, because I forgot to charge it

00:31:50   the night before I needed to use it, right?

00:31:52   For the Sony, its number was lower on DP review.

00:31:54   I'm like, it's like, it wasn't that bad, but it was lower.

00:31:57   And I was like, I looked at the physical size of the battery.

00:31:59   I'm like, really?

00:32:00   This looks so small.

00:32:01   'Cause the battery is physically smaller

00:32:02   than my Panasonic's battery.

00:32:03   So I felt like, oh, this is a bad sign.

00:32:05   So I had two batteries with me and I always charge every night and put the fresh one in

00:32:09   and put the other one there.

00:32:10   I was all ready to go.

00:32:11   Every time I went to the beach, I had two batteries.

00:32:13   Always lasted all day.

00:32:14   I don't think I got below.

00:32:16   Maybe I went below 50% sometimes, but I was pleasantly surprised about the battery life.

00:32:21   But forget about more than one day.

00:32:22   If you were actively shooting a lot of pictures, at the end of the day, you're going to have

00:32:25   to charge that thing.

00:32:26   And I don't mind.

00:32:27   That's all I wanted.

00:32:28   I was like, can it do my most demanding day?

00:32:30   Fine.

00:32:31   that it's not if you were like doing a sporting event and taking a bazillion pictures, it

00:32:35   would probably just burn through the battery completely and you'd have to be swapping the

00:32:37   batteries. But for my use, having two batteries and knowing that one can basically last through

00:32:42   almost anything that I have done, and you know, I don't mind carrying another one of

00:32:46   these little batteries because they're not big, they're not heavy enough if a battery

00:32:48   runs out, I just swap it and it's not a big deal. So I would like it to be better as with

00:32:51   many things and I feel like there's more room in there maybe for a battery, but it wasn't

00:32:55   as bad as I thought it would be. But it's definitely not like your micro four thirds

00:32:59   where you're charging it once a month, forget about that.

00:33:01   - No, I mean, yeah, 'cause Sony's in general,

00:33:03   like the battery life is a little bit worse.

00:33:04   Mine is worse than yours, I'm pretty sure,

00:33:07   because the full frame has the even more stuff

00:33:09   to do electronically inside, the images are even larger

00:33:11   to process, all this stuff.

00:33:13   My battery life is probably among the worst

00:33:15   in the camera industry right now. (laughs)

00:33:18   - Do you have the same battery as me?

00:33:20   That's what I was thinking.

00:33:21   Do you actually have the same model of battery, like--

00:33:23   - It's like the whatever NP, whatever, whatever, 50.

00:33:25   - Yeah, the same battery I have,

00:33:27   so that's why your battery life's getting worse,

00:33:29   'cause your camera is a bigger sensor, bigger screen,

00:33:31   like everything about it is gonna use more battery

00:33:34   than mine does and you have the same actual

00:33:36   physical battery in it, so that's no good.

00:33:38   - So battery life is one of the things

00:33:40   that differentiates Pro, Pro Camera Gear,

00:33:42   but another one is just like,

00:33:43   just handling durability, speed, support.

00:33:47   You know, professional doesn't always mean

00:33:50   that it has the best features or the fastest whatever,

00:33:53   the fastest hardware or the highest end hardware,

00:33:56   the highest specs.

00:33:57   That is not what professional means.

00:33:59   That often results in that, but not always.

00:34:03   Professional means that you can use it to get your job done

00:34:07   and it's not going to fail on you.

00:34:09   So that's why, if you look at a topic

00:34:11   that we are near and dear to, toasters.

00:34:14   Now, all of the toasters that Jon has tested

00:34:18   and loved so much, well, with varying degrees

00:34:20   of love so much, if you actually tried to use

00:34:24   one of those toasters in a bagel shop

00:34:25   where they need a toaster a lot.

00:34:28   This is like a commercial duty roll.

00:34:30   If you used any of those toasters,

00:34:31   even the nice $300 ones, they would burn out

00:34:35   and die in two months at most.

00:34:38   'Cause they're not made,

00:34:39   they aren't made for a heavy workload,

00:34:41   they would overheat or they would have problems.

00:34:44   They're not made for that.

00:34:46   And if you look at a toaster that's in a bagel shop,

00:34:48   you have one of those belt drive toasters,

00:34:50   those are like $1,000.

00:34:52   And you look at it and you're like, that's stupid.

00:34:54   This toaster I can get at Macy's or whatever

00:34:57   is like 40 bucks and has way more features than that.

00:35:00   But that $40 thing will die shortly

00:35:02   and you can't do all this toast at the same time with it

00:35:04   and everything else and that $1000 really basic

00:35:07   belt drive one at the bagel shop

00:35:08   is going to work for a long time.

00:35:10   Pro gear is, this is a metaphor for most

00:35:14   truly professional gear.

00:35:15   And if you look at what the mid-range

00:35:18   and high-end SLRs are like,

00:35:19   and I'm really talking about Canon and Nikon here,

00:35:22   I don't think anybody else is really in this game anymore.

00:35:25   Canon and Nikon, and I think Canon owns quite a bit of it.

00:35:28   These are like machines that are designed to do work

00:35:31   and never fail on you.

00:35:33   As much as I love my Sony camera, I would be surprised

00:35:38   if it still works perfectly eight years from now.

00:35:42   Whereas the Canon does, 'cause that's a Pro-Gri camera.

00:35:45   The Sony is a really high-end feature and spec camera,

00:35:49   but it does not handle like a professional camera.

00:35:52   It doesn't feel like a professional camera.

00:35:53   It doesn't feel like it has the longevity

00:35:55   and the ruggedness.

00:35:56   And I think, generally speaking,

00:35:58   I think people's experiences online have backed that up

00:36:01   where you'll hear about like pro photographers

00:36:03   who took a Sony A7 series camera like to Antarctica

00:36:06   and it failed or something like that.

00:36:08   And you can do that with other cameras

00:36:09   because they're made for like hard use, extreme conditions.

00:36:13   They're always ready.

00:36:14   They're like, you know, I mean,

00:36:15   within reason of course,

00:36:17   but like they're generally just more rugged

00:36:20   and they're also just, they're faster,

00:36:22   they have more physical buttons,

00:36:24   and yeah, they're larger and clunkier and heavier

00:36:25   to get you all that stuff, but that's all there.

00:36:28   They have dual card slots, because that way

00:36:30   you can have a backup in case one card fails

00:36:33   or whatever else.

00:36:34   There's so many affordances there,

00:36:35   and if they break, there's generally better service

00:36:38   available for pro gear, not always, but usually,

00:36:42   and that's another area where Sony has been criticized

00:36:44   as having shoddy service for pro use.

00:36:49   All these mirrorless cameras,

00:36:50   they really don't handle pro cameras.

00:36:53   They don't have the strength and ruggedness

00:36:55   and durability of pro cameras,

00:36:57   and they don't have really the design workload

00:37:01   of pro cameras, and that won't change.

00:37:03   So I think, and I honestly,

00:37:06   when I do handle an SLR these days,

00:37:08   there are parts of it I do miss.

00:37:10   I miss how incredibly responsive they are.

00:37:12   I miss how fast I can snap off shots

00:37:15   and have it be no problem at all and see everything.

00:37:17   I do miss a true optical viewfinder sometimes.

00:37:20   And there are certain things that,

00:37:21   as I'm using it, I miss about my Sony.

00:37:22   Like as I'm using it, I'll miss things like focus peaking,

00:37:24   which I don't think you can do at all in an SLR,

00:37:27   because of the way the system's designed.

00:37:29   Things, you know, there's all sorts of things

00:37:30   that you have the luxuries with mirrorless cameras

00:37:33   that you really can't do with SLRs.

00:37:36   But if I was going out, like shooting an event again,

00:37:39   like I used to do with Tiff when I was her second shooter,

00:37:43   I would pick an SLR still,

00:37:44   and probably for the foreseeable future,

00:37:46   because for actual pro use, where every shot matters,

00:37:50   you can't have any delays, you can't have anything fail,

00:37:52   you can't worry about the battery.

00:37:53   I mean, when we were shooting with the 5Ds,

00:37:57   Tiff and I shot a bunch of weddings together,

00:37:58   'cause she's a wedding photographer,

00:37:59   and we would shoot together, and I can't,

00:38:01   I think maybe I worried about the battery level once,

00:38:05   in all that time.

00:38:07   You know, usually we fill up the cards

00:38:08   before the battery would run out.

00:38:10   You just never had to think about the battery,

00:38:11   'cause it was so big.

00:38:12   And with the Sony, I'm thinking about the battery

00:38:13   almost every time.

00:38:15   Like almost every day I shoot with the Sony,

00:38:16   I have to watch that battery level

00:38:17   and then it goes down to like 20%,

00:38:19   I gotta take the extra out of my pocket.

00:38:20   You know, it's not a professional piece of equipment.

00:38:23   It produces very incredible photos,

00:38:27   but it is not pro gear.

00:38:28   And SLRs, not all of them are,

00:38:29   but many SLRs are pro quality gear

00:38:31   and that difference I think will always be there

00:38:33   just because of the market realities

00:38:35   and the physical realities of these two markets.

00:38:36   - Oh, there you go with the always again,

00:38:38   you know, I'm gonna jump on that.

00:38:40   Getting back to the way the wind is blowing.

00:38:44   It reminds me kind of the, I mean, not quite the same.

00:38:47   The analogy is not perfect, but I

00:38:49   think it's a similar enough situation

00:38:51   that it can put you into the right mindset

00:38:53   to understand how this is going to go.

00:38:54   When professionals all use some cameras,

00:38:56   because digital cameras were crap,

00:38:57   we all remember that time.

00:38:58   We're all the others can remember that.

00:38:59   Where, of course, digital cameras are fine.

00:39:02   They're an interesting toy.

00:39:03   But it's ridiculous.

00:39:04   You'll never compare it to 35 millimeter film.

00:39:06   Professionals, all those professional cameras

00:39:08   from Canon and Nikon, they were all SLRs

00:39:11   without the D in the front of them because they're a professional camera for all the

00:39:15   reasons you stated and they weren't digital because everybody knows that digital may have

00:39:18   some weird advantages but you can't take decent pictures with it.

00:39:22   And that slowly, really, really slowly changed.

00:39:25   And there was a time when no professional photographer would use digital and now almost

00:39:29   all of them do unless they're real artsy fartsy.

00:39:32   It just so happened they stayed in the same form factor, the DSLR at that point.

00:39:36   And there's a lot of, not baggage, but history there.

00:39:41   Even if it was universally better, it would take a long time as people have tons of lenses

00:39:44   and they're used to the cameras they like and there's established people who know how

00:39:48   to fix them and they're kind of familiar with the machines and the way they work.

00:39:53   But there are still advantages to mirrorless in terms of like continuous autofocus of a

00:39:58   moving target that you could never do manually focusing and the DSLR is not fast enough to

00:40:03   catch for very, very fast motion for things like sports photography.

00:40:08   And of course all the size advantages and all the other things.

00:40:10   I'm not saying it's inevitable, but I feel like the main thing keeping DSLRs dominant now is because

00:40:16   Like the inertia that manufacturers are making is no reason you couldn't make a professional mirrorless camera just what happens

00:40:23   No one is doing that because the market is in DSLRs and they're really good and the advantages haven't shift over enough

00:40:29   But I feel like this is a slow migration that gradually over time like Sony's kind of doing it first

00:40:33   You know the mirrorless cameras like oh, this is a great way for consumers to get a camera that has a little bit bigger sensor

00:40:39   But you know that we know consumers don't want to buy an SLR because they're really big

00:40:42   So this is a great advantage for them and Sony was like, you know, we can make even better camera like that

00:40:47   Maybe we can make a full-frame one and maybe we can make it good enough that

00:40:49   professionals might notice and all the things Marco said about them not being suitable for the job are still true, but

00:40:55   You know, they're creeping up on that. No one no one before the a7 and the and your camera

00:41:01   That wasn't a thing that even existed and now, you know

00:41:04   Sony's probably the wrong company to do it,

00:41:06   but all it's gonna take is for five years from now

00:41:08   or whatever for Nikon and Canon to make

00:41:10   their first professional mirrorless camera,

00:41:12   and that's just like, then you've passed the tipping point

00:41:14   and it's just a matter of time then

00:41:16   before they all switch over,

00:41:16   because I think the advantages are important enough

00:41:19   that eventually people will make professional

00:41:21   mirrorless cameras even if they're not doing that today.

00:41:23   - That's a fair point.

00:41:24   I mean, I guess I should clarify that, you know,

00:41:27   I don't believe it's impossible to make

00:41:30   a pro-grade, pro-handling mirrorless camera.

00:41:32   There's nothing about the mirrorless component layout

00:41:35   that prevents pro cameras from being made that I know of.

00:41:38   They just aren't made.

00:41:39   And even the very expensive ones like the A7R II

00:41:43   are professional in quality but not professional

00:41:46   in handling and responsiveness and ruggedness

00:41:48   and everything.

00:41:49   So that being said, Sony is rumored to be working

00:41:52   on something that the rumors have to call on the A9

00:41:56   that is allegedly a pro like mirrorless

00:42:00   with the A7 series sensors.

00:42:03   So that could be really interesting if that's real

00:42:05   and if it actually is pro handling.

00:42:09   And all this being said,

00:42:10   if I were to look at an SLR again today,

00:42:13   I would probably end up looking at Nikon, honestly,

00:42:15   not Canon, because Canon has just not been keeping up at all

00:42:20   with Sony in dynamic range and high ISO noise performance.

00:42:26   And Nikon uses Sony sensors.

00:42:28   And so, like the Nikon D750 is an incredible camera.

00:42:33   It's not even that new anymore.

00:42:34   It's an incredible camera that has a beautiful Sony sensor

00:42:38   and that's very similar to the A7R1 sensor, I believe.

00:42:42   And yeah, so I would almost certainly go Nikon

00:42:46   if I was going SLR today.

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00:44:12   (upbeat music)

00:44:15   - Apparently video games are still a thing.

00:44:18   (laughing)

00:44:19   And I was not aware of this.

00:44:21   But apparently not only are they a thing,

00:44:23   but you have to go through like really terrible, awful other things to be able to do that thing.

00:44:30   - Oh, you're talking about boot camp. - Yeah.

00:44:33   - Oh, God. - So things are not going well, I guess.

00:44:36   - You should drive your Tesla over here and pick me up. I offer services in this area.

00:44:40   - All right, so can you just-- - You're up to the job.

00:44:43   - So can we just give just a moment of background? So you're trying-- or well,

00:44:48   maybe not you, actually. I guess it's Tiff is trying to play No Man's Sky. Is that right?

00:44:52   I'm not trying to troll.

00:44:53   I'm really...

00:44:54   No, she's playing Inside.

00:44:55   Oh, my bad.

00:44:56   Okay.

00:44:57   He's such an old man, Casey.

00:44:58   When it comes to this, I am.

00:44:59   Is she playing the gnomans guy?

00:45:01   The Pokemans?

00:45:04   So anyway, so Tiff wanted to play Inside, and that is not available on OS X, soon to

00:45:10   be Mac OS, or Mac OS.

00:45:13   And it is available on the Xbox, but not the PlayStation 4, is that fair?

00:45:18   It's coming out for the PlayStation 4 soonish.

00:45:20   Yeah, but it's not out now.

00:45:21   Maybe it will be out by the time Marco gets boot camp working, but we'll find out.

00:45:26   And then, because it's not available on OS X and you guys only have a PlayStation 4,

00:45:32   you collective you thought, "Okay, we will install Windows and we will play it there."

00:45:38   Is that a reasonable summary?

00:45:40   Yeah, basically.

00:45:41   He left off all the hemming and hawing.

00:45:43   We had the whole show where Marco explained why he's not getting an Xbox One because he

00:45:46   has all these consoles laying around.

00:45:47   And anyway, by the end of that show, it was like, "Okay, we're going to do the boot camp

00:45:50   thing and so now we're picking up at that point where the decision has been made that

00:45:56   bootcamp and Steam and Windows is the way to do it and then Tiff was complaining about

00:46:00   it yelling at me somehow, somehow this is my fault on Twitter that bootcamp isn't working

00:46:05   out so I assume this is all Marco's fault so he can tell us what's going on.

00:46:10   Syracuse!

00:46:11   Hi Tiff!

00:46:12   Why is this, how is this my fault?

00:46:14   Let me just explain once again, once again Tiff.

00:46:17   I decided to use bootcamp for this game.

00:46:20   The day I decided to do it, I spent some time waffling around and seeing how much Windows

00:46:24   10 costs before eventually deciding to go with the copy of Windows 7 that I had.

00:46:28   I wiped my bootcamp partition, made a new one, installed Windows 7, installed Steam,

00:46:33   and played all of Inside.

00:46:35   Everything I just described took place in one day.

00:46:37   That's all I'm saying.

00:46:38   Oh god.

00:46:39   Wait, can you guys hold on a second?

00:46:40   I need to go get a bag of popcorn real quick.

00:46:47   I just want to play a three hour game.

00:46:49   I just want to play it.

00:46:50   It's a three hour game.

00:46:53   It's, this is the Gilligan's Island of games here.

00:46:56   You go on a three hour tour and you end up there

00:46:59   for your whole fricking life

00:47:00   because you're dealing with Windows nightmares.

00:47:03   - What's going wrong here?

00:47:05   How is this not happening?

00:47:06   This has been like days, week.

00:47:08   It's been a long time.

00:47:09   It's been a long time.

00:47:10   Not even counting the whole time about waffling

00:47:12   what you should do.

00:47:13   And then even after the decision has been made

00:47:14   that we're going to go bootcamp.

00:47:15   And still, I assume you have not played this game.

00:47:18   - Oh, because this whole bootcamp thing

00:47:20   was pitched to us as, "Oh, it'll be no problem.

00:47:23   It's just bootcamp.

00:47:24   You just put it on the disc and you have

00:47:25   your little partition and you just plug it in

00:47:27   and it'll be so easy.

00:47:28   You should just do it.

00:47:28   It's so easy."

00:47:29   - I did this.

00:47:30   Like, it's not speculation like it should be easy.

00:47:32   I actually did it.

00:47:34   - If you actually wrote out the steps it would take

00:47:37   to have this done,

00:47:38   we totally would have just went with the initial

00:47:41   Marco idea of let's just throw some money at the problem

00:47:44   and buy an Xbox because we should have done that

00:47:46   because the infuriation,

00:47:48   I'm almost, I'm about to break,

00:47:49   I'm gonna kick all the computers in,

00:47:52   like in their faces, like I'm so,

00:47:54   (laughing)

00:47:55   freaking angry, whoa, Windows!

00:47:59   - All right, so here's what has happened.

00:48:01   So the other night, so you know, we have a child,

00:48:04   he is young, we haven't had a ton of time

00:48:06   to devote to this problem.

00:48:07   So you know, a few weeks ago,

00:48:09   whenever we talked about it first,

00:48:11   I had created this boot camp installation of Windows 10

00:48:17   using a real Windows 10 product key,

00:48:19   thanks to a listener who graciously sent me one.

00:48:21   Actually, well, I hadn't entered it yet.

00:48:24   We'll get to that.

00:48:24   - That was tonight's problem, thanks.

00:48:26   Thanks, thanks Windows for your tattoo of warning signs

00:48:30   all over everything you do if you don't, ah!

00:48:32   Yeah, keep going.

00:48:35   - Right, so anyway.

00:48:35   (laughing)

00:48:37   Anyway, so I installed Windows 10,

00:48:39   choosing the remind me later option

00:48:41   on the product key screen,

00:48:42   because why wouldn't you click that?

00:48:44   And then, (laughs)

00:48:46   and then I installed it on this external Samsung SSD

00:48:50   so that we could plug it into any computer we wanted to

00:48:52   because sometimes I might wanna play a game,

00:48:55   sometimes it might be on my laptop,

00:48:56   sometimes it might be on Tiff's desktop.

00:48:58   So, I set it all up on my laptop

00:49:02   and figuring that I could just plug it into Tiff's iMac

00:49:05   to play the game when she was ready

00:49:06   'cause her iMac was in use.

00:49:08   She was working and using it

00:49:10   and I didn't wanna disturb it during setup.

00:49:11   So I set the whole thing up as a bootable bootcamp drive

00:49:15   on this SSD from my laptop, a MacBook Pro.

00:49:18   - And I got the message of, "Oh, don't worry,

00:49:19   "whenever you're ready to play this game,

00:49:21   "I got it all set up, we just need to plug it in,

00:49:23   "I can bring it here, I can bring it there,

00:49:25   "I can put it on this, I can put it on that,

00:49:27   "and you're gonna be ready to go.

00:49:28   "You just let me know."

00:49:30   - That's exactly how I sounded.

00:49:31   - Somehow I feel like you're still yelling at me about that.

00:49:33   You realize this is your husband that was doing this,

00:49:35   not me, I live over here in this house.

00:49:37   - Oh, oh.

00:49:38   (laughing)

00:49:39   - And I know where that house is, John, I know.

00:49:41   But I didn't do this.

00:49:42   I take no blame for this whatsoever.

00:49:44   You should be angry at Marco.

00:49:45   - Previous destinations in my GPS and I can find you.

00:49:48   That's it, that's all it takes.

00:49:50   (laughing)

00:49:51   - We're just bringing the computer with you

00:49:52   and I'll have you set up.

00:49:53   - Just drive it over to Tim, no wait,

00:49:56   whose house, John's house.

00:49:57   Yeah, drive it over to John's house.

00:49:58   (laughing)

00:49:59   - Yeah, yeah, so anyway,

00:50:01   so I plugged the drive into Tiff's computer.

00:50:04   So she has this one night set out,

00:50:06   which was a couple days ago.

00:50:08   This one night set out.

00:50:09   This is the day that she's able to play this game, finally.

00:50:12   So, put her kid to bed, I start shutting down her computer

00:50:15   and rebooting the bootcamp drive.

00:50:18   And of course, since the bootcamp installation

00:50:20   was something like two weeks old,

00:50:23   it had a software update.

00:50:24   Oh, go through the software updates,

00:50:25   okay, update, update, reboot.

00:50:27   - A software update?

00:50:28   - Yeah.

00:50:29   - Just A software update?

00:50:30   I think you need to fix that.

00:50:31   - Yeah, it had multiple software updates.

00:50:33   - Didn't you use Windows for like years and years

00:50:35   before you used the Mac?

00:50:36   Like these are the rookie mistakes

00:50:38   that I don't even use Windows.

00:50:39   The only reason I use it for Root Camp,

00:50:40   and even I know the day you decide to play your Windows game

00:50:43   is not the day to find out you have Windows updates.

00:50:45   Like there's always a prep day

00:50:46   where you install the Windows updates

00:50:48   and make sure everything is set to go.

00:50:50   - Every day you find out,

00:50:51   every day is a Windows update day, every day.

00:50:53   - But isn't like, you can defer them anyway.

00:50:56   - You have left the prep day out of that three hour total

00:50:59   that this took you then.

00:51:00   - No, that day that I did it, I did all the updates

00:51:02   because it was a full day, it was a weekend day.

00:51:04   I did the hemming and hawing about doing it,

00:51:07   I did the research, I did the creation of the partition,

00:51:09   I did the installation, I did the endless Windows updates,

00:51:12   and then after dinner I played the game

00:51:13   'cause it's three hours long.

00:51:14   - Oh my God.

00:51:15   All right, so anyway, so we boot up,

00:51:19   we go through the software updates.

00:51:21   Every few times that it boots,

00:51:24   it gives the non-system disk error on boot for some reason,

00:51:28   like that old DOS error I put it on Instagram.

00:51:30   Like, it's like, yeah, so Windows is Windows.

00:51:34   It's a total pile of garbage, as it always has been.

00:51:36   Because I haven't used Windows since XP,

00:51:41   of course it took me a long time to find certain settings

00:51:44   and things like how do I change the resolution,

00:51:46   things like that.

00:51:48   Anyway, so when I first installed it,

00:51:51   I thought, you know, just in case,

00:51:54   because I created this installation on a MacBook Pro,

00:51:58   but I'm running it now on a 5K iMac,

00:52:00   just in case, let me update the,

00:52:02   because when we first launched the game on the 5K iMac,

00:52:05   the frame rate was terrible.

00:52:06   So I'm just like, all right, maybe I need to update

00:52:08   the video driver 'cause it didn't install the one

00:52:10   for the iMac, maybe it only installed the one

00:52:12   for the MacBook Pro, even though it's like one package

00:52:16   of support files for all hardware, supposedly, okay.

00:52:19   Reinstall the tools, you know, try to fix

00:52:21   a stupid frame rate issue.

00:52:23   Finally, we get it going and we get the game going

00:52:26   and I eventually figure out the resolution,

00:52:27   I have to reboot through all these stupid updates.

00:52:29   So we're already like two hours in now,

00:52:31   like after all this stupid updating and rebooting.

00:52:34   - And we only have so much time, right,

00:52:35   because we have a child who goes to sleep

00:52:37   and once he goes to sleep, we only have so much time

00:52:39   to play the game before we're exhausted

00:52:41   and we can't stay up anymore.

00:52:43   So, it was a limited window, ugh.

00:52:47   (laughing)

00:52:48   - So, yeah.

00:52:49   So, this terrible rebooting cycle and drivers

00:52:54   and all this BS, eventually we get the game finally to run

00:52:58   and then it's like, wait, there's no mouse support,

00:53:00   we gotta plug in a controller

00:53:01   'cause there's a controller option,

00:53:03   it's like how do we do that?

00:53:04   And we try to--

00:53:05   - Just use the keyboard, just use the keyboard.

00:53:06   - Yeah, well we eventually came to that,

00:53:07   but first I'm like, well we don't have any game pads

00:53:10   for PCs, but it's like, but we have a PS3 controller,

00:53:13   we have a PS4 controller, we have an Xbox 360 controller,

00:53:16   and everything's like, oh you can just plug these in,

00:53:18   they'll just start working, so we tried a few of those,

00:53:20   and of course none of them actually worked.

00:53:22   Even though the Xbox 360 controller came closest,

00:53:25   that it actually showed up in whatever the current name is

00:53:29   for device manager, however, the game didn't recognize it

00:53:33   for whatever reason, they just couldn't assign things

00:53:35   to it so oh well, nevermind. So eventually we were like alright fine keyboard. So we

00:53:39   went to keyboard then Tiff finally starts playing the game. Okay finally it's like you

00:53:44   know it's probably like 10 o'clock so finally we can finally start playing this game. So

00:53:49   I leave the room because I didn't want to disturb her with light from my computer because

00:53:52   these screens are so freaking reflective. So she's playing the game in a nice dark office.

00:53:56   I leave the office. She calls me back in like four minutes later. The game broke. What?

00:54:03   I come in and it just like, it had quit to the status,

00:54:06   like it had minimized itself to the status bar

00:54:09   as if you, what used to happen,

00:54:10   I don't know if it still happens in Windows gaming,

00:54:12   but what used to happen if you accidentally hit

00:54:13   the Windows key or invoked Alt + Tab in any other way.

00:54:16   - So I got accused of, did you put your finger on a button?

00:54:20   And I'm like, no, I did not put my finger on a button.

00:54:22   I would know if I hit a button.

00:54:23   - Not smart, not smart.

00:54:25   - I just wanted to rule that out because you know,

00:54:27   it's right there on the keyboard,

00:54:28   next to all the other buttons, anyway.

00:54:30   - All the great buttons.

00:54:32   It happens to the best of us.

00:54:33   Every PC gamer accidentally hits the Windows key sometimes.

00:54:36   It always happens.

00:54:37   Anyway, so of course I see the game

00:54:40   like minimized to the taskbar.

00:54:42   And of course, once the game is minimized to the taskbar,

00:54:45   you can't get it to resume.

00:54:46   Like that's it, it's over.

00:54:47   You have to like force quit it.

00:54:49   You can still hear it,

00:54:49   you can still move the character around,

00:54:50   but you can't, like there's no way

00:54:52   you can get it back full screen again

00:54:54   because Windows gaming apparently has not advanced

00:54:56   since there was a problem in 1999.

00:54:58   - And the cursor disappears.

00:54:59   The cursor totally disappears.

00:55:00   You can't even do anything.

00:55:02   - Yeah, because the game captures the mouse cursor still.

00:55:04   It's, you have to like, Alt-Tab to nothing else

00:55:07   to get the cursor back.

00:55:08   It's like, I am shocked that Windows has not

00:55:11   fixed these problems in the, like, 16 years

00:55:15   since I first started seeing it.

00:55:16   Like, how, really, how have they not fixed this?

00:55:18   Anyway, they haven't, because Windows is terrible.

00:55:21   So anyway, we eventually, like, you know,

00:55:24   I get back in the game, where we try rebooting,

00:55:26   we try installing other video drivers,

00:55:27   we look in the internet for solutions,

00:55:28   of course, the internet's full of garbage.

00:55:30   So, eventually I leave, Tiff tries again,

00:55:33   and we start getting this balloon that comes up

00:55:36   that the video driver has stopped responding,

00:55:39   but it has recovered.

00:55:41   So first of all, who the hell writes these messages?

00:55:45   Like, why does a user need to know?

00:55:48   Like, what is a regular person?

00:55:50   I mean, we are experts, sort of,

00:55:53   not in Windows or gaming, but like, we are computer experts,

00:55:55   and I know what all those words mean,

00:55:57   and I still can't tell you what the hell

00:55:59   supposed to do about that maybe it's the ram marco you don't even understand you

00:56:04   don't yeah don't even understand mark though you think those error messages

00:56:09   are bad imagine just a hex code that's all you get is a hex code and there an

00:56:14   error has occurred hex code and then you just go scouring the internet hoping

00:56:18   that somebody has hit this before and has a fix do you remember what I told

00:56:22   the story in the podcast we even I remember do you remember what I had to

00:56:24   do to get my video you know basically to get my video drivers to work you

00:56:27   Remember that?

00:56:27   No.

00:56:28   Because I took a few runs at it where I installed the boot camp

00:56:31   drivers.

00:56:32   I would install Windows, and then I

00:56:33   would install the boot camp drivers.

00:56:34   But every time I installed the boot camp drivers,

00:56:36   it made my system unbootable.

00:56:37   Like, it would boot back up, and it would say, unrecognize.

00:56:40   Do you want to try to repair?

00:56:41   And it would try to repair, and it would never succeed.

00:56:43   And it would be like, oh, well.

00:56:44   So what I had to do was install without the drivers,

00:56:47   then do Apple's little boot camp driver installation,

00:56:50   but stop it as soon as sound works.

00:56:52   Because it makes a sound when it installs the driver.

00:56:54   I had to forcibly kill the driver installation

00:56:57   and then install like,

00:56:59   I had three things I had.

00:56:59   I had Windows itself,

00:57:01   I had the ATI drivers,

00:57:05   the Radeon drivers,

00:57:06   like third-party drivers from the Radeon site

00:57:08   for bootcamp specifically.

00:57:09   So AMD says these are the ones you use for bootcamp

00:57:11   for this video card, right?

00:57:12   And then I had the Apple drivers

00:57:14   and the combination of three of them

00:57:15   is I had to do them in a certain order

00:57:17   and I had to kill the Apple one as soon as sound worked.

00:57:20   And that is the setup that worked for me.

00:57:21   That was like an hour's worth of butsing there.

00:57:23   So it's never easy.

00:57:24   I'm not saying it's easy, but I figured it was

00:57:26   because my computer is ancient and like it would be easier

00:57:28   on a modern computer.

00:57:29   - I feel like when people go through all of these steps

00:57:32   to do something simple and they recount all the steps

00:57:35   and the craziness and it took me a day and I did this

00:57:38   and then I did this and then I got it to work

00:57:39   and now it works and it's fine.

00:57:42   I feel like it's like a battle, like a badge of honor, right?

00:57:45   That everyone's wearing now that, oh, look how many things

00:57:49   that I did to get my thing, my simple task to play a game,

00:57:54   Just a game, just a game.

00:57:55   That's it.

00:57:56   - So let me remind everyone. - It's the opposite though.

00:57:58   - Let me remind everyone,

00:57:59   I was making a fairly lucrative living in Windows

00:58:02   and did everything in my power to leave that behind.

00:58:05   Maybe, maybe that was for a reason.

00:58:07   Maybe that reason might be Windows.

00:58:09   - This just reminds you of why we all have Macs.

00:58:12   Like this is the reason why.

00:58:14   But see, the trick is that if this is proposed as a solution

00:58:18   as an easy way to play a game.

00:58:20   - By somebody.

00:58:21   - No, but like for, you know, first of all,

00:58:24   I had more faith in Marco's ability to do this.

00:58:25   But second of all, the most important thing is,

00:58:30   Marco can have these struggles

00:58:31   because the timeline is already incredibly stretched out

00:58:33   because of all his, you know,

00:58:35   hemming and hawing and trying to decide what he's gonna do.

00:58:37   You don't present it as ready to play

00:58:40   unless you're sure it's ready to play.

00:58:42   Like you don't, like the making the promise,

00:58:44   like, oh, I've got it on a drive, everything's all set.

00:58:46   Like you should have known, like Tiff should not,

00:58:48   you shouldn't even talk to Tiff about this

00:58:50   until you've loaded it, played it for 15 minutes,

00:58:53   reset it to the beginning of the game,

00:58:54   and say, "Okay, now it's ready for you."

00:58:56   Like, that's when it's actually ready.

00:58:57   You don't involve her, unless she wants to do it herself,

00:59:00   fine, then she can deal with all this crap.

00:59:01   But if you're gonna deal with the crap,

00:59:03   don't call her in to look at it until it's really done.

00:59:05   That's the secret to all the geeky stuff

00:59:08   you're doing for your family or whatever.

00:59:10   You don't wanna show them what it actually takes

00:59:11   to get this done.

00:59:12   You don't call them into the room

00:59:13   until the thing is already loaded in iTunes or Netflix,

00:59:16   until it's already queuing up,

00:59:17   until you've seen the Paramount logo appear,

00:59:19   Like you know all the network connectors are working,

00:59:21   you know you're signed in,

00:59:22   you know everything has a head software update,

00:59:24   the popcorn is popping, they come in, they sit down,

00:59:26   you hit the play button, but it was already about to play.

00:59:28   Like that's what you gotta do.

00:59:30   - See, everyone who's in a relationship of any kind

00:59:34   would totally pat me on the back,

00:59:36   because I didn't say I told you so at that moment

00:59:39   when he brought up--

00:59:41   - It was in your eyes.

00:59:43   - Oh yeah, well I can't keep it out of my eyes.

00:59:45   I mean, I gotta show you a little bit.

00:59:46   - I mean, you were giving me like the look so hard.

00:59:49   - But I didn't say it.

00:59:50   - Yeah, she yelled at me on Twitter instead.

00:59:52   She was transference, she was just taking it out on me.

00:59:54   (laughing)

00:59:56   - Yeah, so anyway, so eventually,

00:59:59   this keeps this stupid display driver stopped responding,

01:00:02   but we figured it out, but yet this is still a problem

01:00:04   that we need to alert you with via a balloon

01:00:06   that kills your game.

01:00:07   This problem kept happening, and I tried,

01:00:09   this is like, there's like an ATI driver control panel,

01:00:12   so I kept opening that up and turning down settings.

01:00:14   I tried lowering the resolution, which is not easy anymore,

01:00:18   But I eventually dug down and found all this crap

01:00:21   in their new interface that's even worse than the old one.

01:00:24   And eventually figured out, like, all right,

01:00:25   let me turn in all the settings,

01:00:26   turn in all the anti-aliasing,

01:00:27   turn down everything that I know to be complex,

01:00:30   and it still kept having these problems.

01:00:32   I'm like, all right, it's not an issue of it overloading.

01:00:35   So I thought maybe, just maybe,

01:00:38   this is because I had created the installation on my laptop

01:00:41   and I was running it on a 5K iMac.

01:00:43   And so I thought, let's just try

01:00:45   playing the game on the laptop.

01:00:47   - So we abandoned ship from the iMac.

01:00:49   - Yeah, so Tiff moved to the chair.

01:00:52   - The survivors got in the boat and we left the iMac

01:00:56   and we moved on to the chair with the laptop.

01:00:59   - Yeah, so finally went over,

01:01:02   finally played the game on the laptop.

01:01:05   And what was the first problem you had there?

01:01:08   Was that the one?

01:01:11   - No, I just needed you to get my pen.

01:01:12   - Right, and we ran out of power almost

01:01:15   and that was another balloon, the 10% warning, right?

01:01:18   - Yeah, yeah, the battery almost ran out

01:01:19   'cause we forgot to plug in because it's a laptop.

01:01:21   - Yeah, it turns out when you play games,

01:01:23   laptop batteries don't last very long, what a surprise.

01:01:25   So anyway.

01:01:27   - So I go back to play the game tonight

01:01:29   since I stayed up so late last night

01:01:31   trying to finish the game in time,

01:01:32   but it just got so late I was very, very tired.

01:01:35   - In the ultimate insult, I went to bed before she did.

01:01:38   - Oh my God.

01:01:39   - And then Alexa turns off all the lights on me,

01:01:41   which was the worst, but I had her turn it back on.

01:01:44   I felt so cool.

01:01:45   That's good for mood lighting though, right?

01:01:47   It's good for atmosphere for that game.

01:01:48   Well, I had it mostly dark.

01:01:49   I just didn't want the whole house to be dark.

01:01:51   Like the other rooms lights went off and I was like plunged into the pit of darkness.

01:01:56   So I had to have her turn it back on.

01:01:58   But anyway, so tonight he's podcasting.

01:02:01   I have my game on a laptop.

01:02:03   It's portable.

01:02:04   I can leave the office.

01:02:05   I can go play wherever I want and I sit down and I'm getting ready to play and a message

01:02:10   is tattooed in the corner of this dark game.

01:02:14   It says, "Activate windows.

01:02:17   Go to settings to activate windows."

01:02:19   - Because Marco never activated it.

01:02:21   That's right, he left a part out of the story.

01:02:22   It's like, "Oh, click this, register later."

01:02:25   - Yeah, you caught that little seed that he planted there.

01:02:28   So it's tattooed on the bottom of the game.

01:02:30   Everything is dark and you know,

01:02:32   if anyone has played inside,

01:02:33   you kind of see the, it's a lot of silhouettes.

01:02:36   It is, it's very distracting

01:02:38   when you have big white letters

01:02:39   right at the bottom of the screen,

01:02:42   shouting at you about activating your windows, which.

01:02:45   - Whatever the hell that means.

01:02:48   - Whatever the hell that means.

01:02:49   And so I go to the settings, so it could tell me,

01:02:51   and it says there's a button that says,

01:02:53   do you wanna know what the hell this means?

01:02:54   And so I click the button,

01:02:56   and it tells me that I need some sort of key,

01:02:59   and I need to have this program go in

01:03:02   and change settings in my computer

01:03:04   in order to get this key, and that just makes me panic.

01:03:07   So I'm here texting Marco while he's podcasting,

01:03:10   asking him for a key and he's like, can you wait?

01:03:12   I'm like, no, there's this huge ugly tattoo

01:03:14   all over my game.

01:03:15   And then in that process, the game stops booting.

01:03:18   It won't boot anymore.

01:03:19   It just won't.

01:03:20   It just stops.

01:03:21   It's just spinning into the abyss.

01:03:23   Steam doesn't work.

01:03:25   Nothing's working.

01:03:26   Finally, he sends me the message with the key in it.

01:03:30   So thank you, whoever gave us that key.

01:03:32   You're awesome.

01:03:33   I put it in, I mistype it.

01:03:36   I put it in again and it works.

01:03:39   And then I have to shut down all the programs

01:03:41   that I had open and open them again

01:03:43   because it can't figure out what I just did.

01:03:46   And so now the game is sitting on the laptop

01:03:49   and it is running and it looks great.

01:03:51   And Marco calls me in here.

01:03:54   So that's where we are.

01:03:55   (laughing)

01:03:57   - I'm so glad that Journey is only available on the console

01:04:00   because this is like totally destroying

01:04:02   the experience of Inside.

01:04:02   But it's this moody, you know, atmospheric game

01:04:05   you really want to just get into in a quiet house without anything to worry about. Instead,

01:04:09   you're being accosted by terrible little balloons asking you to update Windows.

01:04:13   Tell me about it. I should have stayed up all night. I really just should have stayed

01:04:16   up all night last night and finished it. I think I have only about like 40 minutes left.

01:04:20   Oh my god. Yeah. So, in conclusion, bootcamp sucks. John, you were wrong.

01:04:28   Oh, Windows sucks and you suck at installing bootcamp. I think that's clear.

01:04:33   I can't really argue with that, but I mean,

01:04:36   it sounds even from your experience,

01:04:38   it sounds like there's just a baseline level

01:04:41   of Windows crappiness that you have to deal with,

01:04:43   even if you do everything right.

01:04:44   - Well, even if you have a PC.

01:04:46   - And it seemed like that is approximately

01:04:48   like 75% of the trouble that we had.

01:04:51   So it isn't even that much less than the trouble we had.

01:04:53   - Well, but you made bad choices.

01:04:55   You didn't activate immediately.

01:04:57   You didn't think about the fact that you had to update.

01:04:59   You installed one attached to different hardware

01:05:00   than you were gonna play on.

01:05:01   Like, these are all mistakes

01:05:02   that it could have guided you away from.

01:05:04   You presented it as a tip before you knew it was ready.

01:05:06   Like some of these are just procedural marriage mistakes

01:05:09   and some of them are technical mistakes

01:05:10   that you do with Windows. (laughing)

01:05:13   And like, and see when I'm doing it myself,

01:05:14   I am both the preparer and the person who I'm playing for.

01:05:17   I'm the most demanding customer for playing.

01:05:18   I don't wanna even begin the play session

01:05:20   until I'm absolutely dead sure

01:05:21   that everything is all set, right?

01:05:23   - Jon, next time you say that this is gonna be fine

01:05:27   and it's so easy, just put something on this thing

01:05:29   and then we can play it,

01:05:30   you're gonna come over here first

01:05:32   and do it for us and then I'll play.

01:05:34   - I feel like you should bring the computer to me

01:05:36   for this service, but yeah.

01:05:37   - Oh, there's a surprise.

01:05:38   John doesn't wanna leave the house.

01:05:40   Nobody would have seen that coming.

01:05:41   - Marco just likes to drive places in his Tesla

01:05:42   to show off the range. - That's true.

01:05:43   If you make us pizza, we can show up.

01:05:45   I'm cool with that.

01:05:46   - Yeah, I'd do that.

01:05:47   - That seems like fair trade.

01:05:49   - So now that we got you both here

01:05:50   and you've had this terrible experience,

01:05:52   another thing you need to know is the Karen feeding

01:05:55   of a bootcamp partition in Steam.

01:05:56   - Oh God, I'm bi. - There will come a time

01:05:58   in the future, for Marco, this is fine.

01:06:01   There will come a time in the future when you want to use this again to play a game.

01:06:04   Will there?

01:06:05   Really?

01:06:06   Yeah.

01:06:07   Don't assume that because you played a game on it three months ago that you're like, "Oh,

01:06:09   I already have that.

01:06:10   I'll just go into it and download the game and play it."

01:06:12   You will not.

01:06:13   There will be Windows updates.

01:06:14   There will be Steam updates.

01:06:15   You might have to update your drivers after both of those happen.

01:06:20   There is a care and feeding of it.

01:06:21   The longer you go, the longer it takes.

01:06:23   Now, that's why I still usually allow for, with an existing boot camp partition, like

01:06:26   when I had XP.

01:06:27   I allowed for one day to install, buy the game, do all the updates,

01:06:30   launch it, make sure it runs.

01:06:32   The next day would be the day I start playing the game.

01:06:36   Which is not, you know, it's not that bad, but you just have to plan for it.

01:06:39   If you go in and say, "Okay, this new game is out.

01:06:42   I've set aside this time. I'm going to boot back into boot camp for the first time in three months."

01:06:46   You will not be playing that game for a long time.

01:06:49   Right? So you have to have the, you know, if you use the boot camp edition every day, this is fine.

01:06:54   you know sort of be you know it's like using your Mac every day every once in a while there's updates or whatever but it

01:06:59   Really kills you if you just leave it dormant for months and months

01:07:01   So keep that in mind and the next time a game is out and she wants to play it get it all set up

01:07:04   For her ahead of time make sure all the updates are run launch it play a little bit of yourself

01:07:09   Delete the save game go back to the beginning make sure and I don't think your boot camp partition is healthy already because those button

01:07:14   Those bubbles with the the you know well you maybe once you activate it on the laptop. It's fine

01:07:19   But if she's gonna play it on iMac wipe the whole thing start over reinstall on the iMac from the beginning when she's not

01:07:23   there or something you may have to sacrifice your own sleep to do this instead of just

01:07:27   going to bed early because you're tired from fighting with windows.

01:07:30   So what part of this is the fun playing the game which is you're supposed to let her have

01:07:34   all the fun and you do all the work.

01:07:38   This is still tough. I'm still here. I didn't really leave. I just I just feel like that

01:07:44   knowing that there is another way to do this where you just turn on a game and it's there

01:07:48   and maybe there's one update is just so much better.

01:07:52   I think you underestimate the number of updates on consoles.

01:07:55   Exactly.

01:07:56   Like, if you got a new Xbox One out of the box, you're not playing, you know, inside

01:07:59   on that Xbox until you run through all the updates to the Xbox system software, then

01:08:02   download the game, and then whatever patches.

01:08:05   It's not, it's better, it's way better, I'm not going to say it's not, but it's not like,

01:08:09   "Oh, the Xbox just arrived.

01:08:11   Set that up for me, and after I finish lunch I'll start playing."

01:08:13   No you won't.

01:08:14   That's the problem.

01:08:15   It's like, we think of consoles as like the way the Sega Genesis was.

01:08:19   It just literally always worked exactly the same way.

01:08:21   You plug in the game, you turn it on,

01:08:23   it starts immediately, it plays that game, you're done.

01:08:25   - Well, that's the way Steam on Mac works.

01:08:27   - Well, sort of.

01:08:28   - But you're constantly using your Mac

01:08:30   and you're constantly updating it,

01:08:30   and I bet Steam updates like every other time

01:08:32   you launch it anyway, even on your Mac.

01:08:33   It's just that you're constantly doing that

01:08:35   so the updates aren't gigantic

01:08:36   and there's not seven of them.

01:08:37   It's just, you know, the cost of doing business,

01:08:38   the ongoing cost of just using your Mac

01:08:40   and running the updates all the time

01:08:41   whenever you feel like it.

01:08:42   - I don't think I wanna pay this cost, John.

01:08:45   - Well, Marco's supposed to pay.

01:08:46   - That's how I said it. - Why?

01:08:47   - He does all the work, you have all the fun.

01:08:49   - Yeah, why is he the one paying this cost?

01:08:51   Why aren't I getting berated to learn

01:08:53   how to do all this stuff myself?

01:08:55   - Come on, that's obvious.

01:08:56   - You could, but then you have to pay the cost

01:08:58   and then you have to have the fun.

01:08:59   Like that's what I did.

01:09:00   No one else in my family's helping me set up my bootcamp.

01:09:02   I pay the cost and I have the fun.

01:09:03   I'm just saying in the situation,

01:09:04   if Marco was gonna do it for you,

01:09:06   then that's the arrangement you can have.

01:09:08   If you wanna do it all yourself

01:09:09   and not trust Marco to do it,

01:09:10   because maybe you have exactly as much knowledge

01:09:12   about Windows as he does,

01:09:13   which is entirely plausible,

01:09:14   then you should.

01:09:15   (laughing)

01:09:18   - I don't know who that's insulting.

01:09:19   (laughing)

01:09:21   - Marco, trust me.

01:09:22   - Anyway, hope this game is good.

01:09:25   You wanna go finish it?

01:09:26   - Yeah, I need to go finish this game.

01:09:27   I'll see you on the incomparable, John.

01:09:29   - Okay, enjoy.

01:09:31   - Thanks a lot, incomparable, for causing all this.

01:09:33   - So what's awesome these days, Marco?

01:09:37   - Oh, not Windows.

01:09:39   - Not Windows!

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01:11:32   - Matthew S. wrote in and said,

01:11:39   "I've spotted a new trend whilst commuting

01:11:41   "on the London Tube every day,

01:11:43   and it drives me, all caps, nuts!

01:11:46   Before returning the iPhone to their pocket or bag,

01:11:48   I'd say probably 90% of the 16 to 22 year olds

01:11:50   quit all of their apps, okay,

01:11:52   and then flick up the control center panel,

01:11:56   and turn the brightness to zero

01:11:58   before putting the phone to sleep.

01:12:00   What?

01:12:02   Why?

01:12:03   - Because they want a thinner iPhone.

01:12:05   - That fits perfectly with the quitting all the apps,

01:12:09   which we have discussed at length on other shows,

01:12:10   and is mostly pointless.

01:12:12   and possibly detrimental depending on what's going on. Turning the control center brightness

01:12:17   down is exactly the same kind of like, it makes kind of logical sense if you think about

01:12:21   it because brightness must mean it uses the battery. And even though putting to sleep

01:12:24   I feel better about turning the brightness all the way down because it accidentally wakes

01:12:27   up in my pocket or the next time I wake it up. This is a bad idea. There's no end to

01:12:32   the number of things that people will do like putting chicken entrails in a circle around

01:12:37   their bed at night to make their phone charge faster or whatever. There's no end to the

01:12:40   that they will do.

01:12:41   Like, if we could put more things in, like, control center and settings and stuff that

01:12:46   seem to be power-related before they put their phones to sleep, like, that's the best one,

01:12:49   because the screen is basically off when you put it to sleep, and yet they still want to

01:12:52   turn the brightness down.

01:12:54   And you know, like, the energy used by pulling up control center is probably, you know, negates

01:13:00   the energy they save by having the brightness down a millisecond before they hit the power

01:13:03   button to put the thing to sleep.

01:13:05   But wait, there is some validity here, because if a notification comes in that causes the

01:13:09   the screen to light up. It will then be at lower brightness for those like 5 seconds.

01:13:13   I know, I understand, yes, briefly on, yeah I know, I know, but like, but seriously, like

01:13:18   the amount of time they send on the double tapping the home button and flicking those

01:13:22   things up and the GPU cycle and energy of like flick, flick, flick, like, there, it's

01:13:26   just, this is not, not to mention time, which is a resource that is not renewable, like,

01:13:32   this is not a good use of your time. If you're doing this, please stop. If you see your friends

01:13:35   quitting apps, try to convince them that it's not the thing to do. I really desperately

01:13:39   hope that Apple makes force-quitting apps require double-key ignition, like the nuclear

01:13:46   launch code type things, makes it so much more cumbersome, so that to actually force-quit

01:13:50   every single one of your applications would just take way too long, and then that will

01:13:54   force people to stop this, because I think they'll give up if it takes 17 taps and a

01:13:59   wait and a tap and a hold and a force press to force-quit one app.

01:14:02   Will they?

01:14:03   Yeah, I think it'll just take too long.

01:14:05   They won't be able to put their phone away.

01:14:06   They'll still have to spend 15 minutes.

01:14:08   you know we talked about the Google thing the other extreme is to just give them a button

01:14:11   that makes all the pictures go away but doesn't actually force quit anything but you still

01:14:14   legitimately need a way to force quit apps on your phone so that has to exist it's just

01:14:19   this is such a mess this this whole interface Apple is partially to blame but so are people

01:14:25   passing around sort of superstitions about what you should do to your phone and yes Marco I saw

01:14:30   your dig there yes Apple should make phones with more battery we all agree yeah I mean that's I'm

01:14:35   I'm not gonna beat that horse to death today.

01:14:36   I'll wait 'til they announce the new phone.

01:14:38   - But if they did, do you think it would stop these people

01:14:40   from turning their brightness down and stuff?

01:14:41   I don't think it would because it's not founded,

01:14:43   it's not evidence-based medicine, as they say,

01:14:45   which as we know, as we recall normally, medicine.

01:14:48   - Well, but you know, if, yeah,

01:14:50   if people weren't always running out of battery,

01:14:54   they wouldn't be so desperate for solutions.

01:14:58   And even if these solutions are fake or ineffective,

01:15:01   there's still a very clear demand here

01:15:03   that customers are saying and have been saying

01:15:05   for a very long time, my battery doesn't last long enough,

01:15:08   and therefore I'm going to seek out stupid tricks

01:15:11   to make it last longer.

01:15:12   - Yeah, well, the bad thing about these tricks

01:15:14   is they do them.

01:15:16   So everyone has had the battery run out at some point,

01:15:18   and the more you have it run out,

01:15:19   the more you're gonna seek out these superstitions.

01:15:20   So there's a truth to that, right?

01:15:21   But the other thing is that it runs out

01:15:24   because they were out for a long day,

01:15:26   they played a lot of games, there was a bug in the OS

01:15:28   or a bug in some app that burned through their battery,

01:15:30   and that triggers the seeking out of,

01:15:32   Ask the other people in your tribe what you do to make this magical device not run out

01:15:36   of battery.

01:15:37   They tell you all these tricks and you do these tricks religiously and the next day

01:15:41   your battery doesn't run out.

01:15:42   You attribute the fact that your battery didn't run out to the fact that you did all these

01:15:45   tricks and they'll say, "Well, you don't need to do all that stuff."

01:15:47   They'll say, "No, I do these things and now my battery doesn't run out."

01:15:50   They don't understand that the reason the battery ran out the day before had nothing

01:15:52   to do with not doing those things.

01:15:53   It was a different situation.

01:15:55   Every time they do these, every day they go through and their battery doesn't run out

01:15:58   and they do all this stuff reinforces in their mind the idea that doing these things causes

01:16:01   the battery not to run out, which is not the case, right? And so it's almost impossible

01:16:06   to convince them they should stop doing this. They'd be like, "But when I do this, it's

01:16:10   like Lisa's rock and the Simpsons. This rock keeps away tigers." And it sounds ridiculous.

01:16:15   How can a rock keep away tigers? And Lisa says, "You don't see any tigers, do you?"

01:16:18   And then Homer says, "Lisa, I'd like to buy that rock." That's how the human brain

01:16:21   works. So it's impossible to convince people these things don't work. So I think the

01:16:25   battery life in the iPhone could stand improvement. But for most people, it lasts through a normal

01:16:31   sort of medium to light use day.

01:16:33   Heavy use days, it's still not sufficient,

01:16:35   which is why you have battery cases,

01:16:36   and those are the days people run out of batteries,

01:16:37   and those are the days that drive them

01:16:39   to seek out these things.

01:16:40   - But you see, that's the problem here.

01:16:43   Like we mentioned earlier in the camera discussion,

01:16:45   I was saying how these new mirrorless cameras have,

01:16:49   especially like the high end Sony ones,

01:16:50   have terrible battery life, and on my Sony,

01:16:53   I've done all sorts of stupid tricks

01:16:55   to try to stretch the battery life a little bit further,

01:16:58   because it just isn't good enough.

01:16:59   and I keep the phone on airplane mode

01:17:01   so I don't use any of the wifi features,

01:17:02   I have all these like, all the screens turn off really fast

01:17:05   and all this stuff, like all these tricks

01:17:07   to try to save a little bit of that power

01:17:09   because it's so scarce.

01:17:10   Meanwhile, I never once had to seek out a trick

01:17:13   on how to save battery power on my SLR

01:17:15   because the battery was so ridiculously big

01:17:18   and it didn't use that much of it

01:17:19   that it was just hardly ever a problem.

01:17:21   The solution to this problem is to fix the symptoms

01:17:25   that cause people to seek out these solutions

01:17:27   in the first place.

01:17:28   And I'm not, like when people say like,

01:17:30   oh where can phones go?

01:17:31   They are so mature now,

01:17:32   I don't know what phones can get better at really.

01:17:35   They can get better at this.

01:17:36   This is one big thing that has always been a problem

01:17:38   with almost all portable devices, especially cell phones.

01:17:43   And I think it's really time to start thinking

01:17:46   about the problem differently.

01:17:46   It's very clear that the way Apple thinks

01:17:49   about this problem is they have the way,

01:17:51   they run these certain tests of like,

01:17:54   you know, voice usage and light web browsing and everything.

01:17:57   But I think it's increasingly clear that we keep coming up

01:18:00   with really cool things we can do with these phones

01:18:03   that use something or other that needs a lot of power,

01:18:06   whether it's the GPS chip or the camera

01:18:09   or the high-end CPU speeds and maybe using the GPU

01:18:12   to do a bunch of cool 3D stuff, using AR compositing,

01:18:15   using advanced processing, whatever the case may be,

01:18:18   we are coming up with things that we can do

01:18:20   with these phones that just destroy the battery.

01:18:21   And along with the ones we already had,

01:18:23   things like turn-by-turn directions,

01:18:25   that slaughters the battery because you're keeping GPS on.

01:18:27   I don't think this makes for a good overall product

01:18:31   that the story is the battery will be good enough

01:18:34   as long as you don't really do much with it.

01:18:36   Why should I be penalized for using it the way,

01:18:40   using all these great features that you've added

01:18:42   and developed or that I've bought in the App Store

01:18:45   or more likely taken in the App Store,

01:18:47   gotten in the App Store?

01:18:48   Why is this okay?

01:18:50   Why is this the status quo?

01:18:52   and why is this considered good enough?

01:18:55   Oh yeah, well it's totally normal

01:18:57   for any non-trivial use of your phone.

01:19:00   Even if you just do trivial things

01:19:02   for a long time during the day,

01:19:04   those battery life estimates are based

01:19:06   on very light usage of your phone

01:19:08   and having it off in your pocket most of the day.

01:19:11   Well, our phones are increasingly becoming our computers.

01:19:13   That's not how people use computers.

01:19:15   People use computers more all day than that.

01:19:17   So I feel like our standards are too low,

01:19:20   Both us as consumers, our expectations,

01:19:23   and Apple standards in this area are too low

01:19:25   that we need to start thinking about

01:19:27   how amazing could the phone be

01:19:31   if the battery was not the same as it was now,

01:19:34   was not just like 15% bigger?

01:19:36   What if it was four times bigger?

01:19:38   Like how would that change the way we can use these devices?

01:19:41   How would it change?

01:19:43   How many of these stupid habits

01:19:45   would people no longer need to do

01:19:47   if the average person during the two years

01:19:50   they own their phone never ran out of battery,

01:19:52   or maybe it happened once.

01:19:54   Things would change dramatically,

01:19:57   but we are never gonna get there

01:19:59   if we keep making these little tiny incremental improvements

01:20:01   because we've declared 10 hours wireless web or whatever

01:20:05   to be good enough.

01:20:07   - Well, I think that we are there.

01:20:09   It's just that we're there by strapping backpacks

01:20:11   to our phones, and that's why Apple made the battery case.

01:20:13   That's why Mophie makes a killing with every new phone.

01:20:17   I agree with you by and large

01:20:18   that we really should expect and ask for a little bit more juice on these phones. And

01:20:23   I think we've talked, all three of us have talked about this to death on prior episodes,

01:20:26   but really the fix today is to strap a humpback or to turn your phone into a humpback phone

01:20:33   and then the problem solved. Real time follow up on the real pressing issue here, which

01:20:38   is the lunatic, the really ridiculous habits of the youths of Britain. When your phone

01:20:45   is in your pocket, it will not light up, at least on iOS 10.

01:20:50   I just sent myself a push notification.

01:20:52   I had my finger mashed on the ambient light sensor

01:20:55   and it did not light up.

01:20:57   - Yeah, maybe there's chances where it could

01:20:59   if it's facing a certain direction, maybe different OSes did.

01:21:01   Like a lot of the superstition stuff is based on

01:21:03   like maybe the current one doesn't do it.

01:21:05   They don't, again, it's not evidence-based.

01:21:06   They're not updating it based on current scenarios.

01:21:08   And as we said on past shows,

01:21:10   force quitting can actually cost you battery life.

01:21:11   If you're just gonna use that same app again

01:21:13   and you're causing it to launch from a fresh state

01:21:14   over and over and over again. It's better to resume it. It's better to have it suspended

01:21:17   and resume it. Better for your battery, the thing you're trying to save. But I think this

01:21:21   whole topic segues nicely into actually the first item on our topic list, which is talking

01:21:25   about the iPhone 7 rumors, which mostly is stuff that we've talked about before. But

01:21:29   another topic we visited before is like, oh, this one looks like it's going to be about

01:21:33   the same size and shape as the iPhone 6. And I assume the insides, as they usually do,

01:21:40   will become slightly more power efficient in various ways. So if it's the same size

01:21:43   is the iPhone 6, the insides are more power efficient, it should get better battery life,

01:21:48   right? Like this should be, it's not like what Marco was talking about, four times bigger,

01:21:53   but it seems like it could be potentially a change to the trend where from year to year

01:21:58   battery life is basically the same, they just, you know, they basically like, they have a

01:22:02   new phone but they make it a little bit thinner and they try to, you know, the insides take

01:22:05   less power but they use less, but they put a smaller battery in it to make it thinner

01:22:08   and they try to, you know, like the iPad thing, try to keep it around 10 hours, keep their

01:22:11   stats are on the same and it varies, some go up and some go down, it's not a smooth

01:22:14   slope. But for this, it's going to be the third year in a row with the same physical

01:22:19   size phone, I have to think that this has to have better battery life, at least better,

01:22:23   much better battery life than the 6, not just like a little bump in the graph but significantly

01:22:27   better and if it doesn't, I wonder what they're using, like have they found a new way to suck

01:22:32   up all that battery power because like it may be too much to ask as we have so many

01:22:37   times before, Apple please make one fat phone. Like yeah, don't make all your phones fat

01:22:41   but just make one fat phone. Why not? Make one fat one for the people who want lots of

01:22:44   better. And one fat laptop. Yeah, exactly, right? But if they're not going to do that,

01:22:49   this may be again one of the potential silver linings of the otherwise fairly unremarkable

01:22:54   iPhone 7 from what we know from the rumors and potentially infuriating iPhone 7 with

01:22:58   no headphone port is, hey, it could have better battery life than the 6 and the 6s in a way

01:23:04   that people would notice. They'll still force quit all their apps and turn the screen

01:23:07   brightness down, but whatever.

01:23:09   - No, but it's, see, that's the thing, like, it's not,

01:23:12   the way you get better battery life is by a dramatic change

01:23:16   in the power efficiency of the components,

01:23:18   or by increasing the battery size.

01:23:20   That's how this happens.

01:23:22   Not by, as in, like, you know, not by like 15%,

01:23:24   like if it's 15% more battery life, that's nice,

01:23:26   I'll take it, but that's not going to change

01:23:28   anybody's behavior, that's not going to be a radical shift

01:23:30   in what we can do with these devices

01:23:32   that we couldn't do before.

01:23:33   - Well, it could change new users' behavior,

01:23:35   because if they never actually run out of battery,

01:23:37   they won't seek out these tweaks.

01:23:38   Like you said, if you never get into a situation,

01:23:40   you run out and it could be that for a huge swaths of paper,

01:23:43   15% more is enough to get them over the hump

01:23:46   where like before the battery would have been dead

01:23:49   and they would have had an hour left

01:23:50   until they get home and put it on the nightstand

01:23:52   and now it lasts that extra hour

01:23:53   and has 30 minutes to spare after that.

01:23:56   So they feel like, maybe they feel like I just made it

01:23:58   and maybe they have a little bit of anxiety,

01:23:59   but they never actually literally run out of battery.

01:24:02   I think that'll go a long way to helping.

01:24:03   And really like three years, same size.

01:24:06   Like the components inside can get smaller too, making room for more battery.

01:24:10   Like all, same form factor for three years, I think if you add up all the small gains

01:24:15   over those years, the difference between the 6 and the 7 is going to be huge.

01:24:18   The difference between the 6s and the 7, maybe not as huge, but this is all predicated on

01:24:23   something we're not sure about, which is, they could have done the same thing with the

01:24:26   CPU.

01:24:27   Like, oh, we have a more power efficient process and we've reduced the number of chips and

01:24:32   some of our chips are made on a smaller process than they used to be, like the ancillary supporting

01:24:35   So we do have a power drop.

01:24:38   Let's use that to crank the clock speed,

01:24:39   or let's use that to add more cores to the GPU.

01:24:42   Like we have no idea what's inside the system on the chip.

01:24:44   So it could be that everything I'm saying is not true.

01:24:46   And in fact, they basically use their budget

01:24:49   of extra space and extra power to make this phone faster,

01:24:53   because that's the only thing that I've heard

01:24:55   about this phone besides the dual cameras

01:24:57   on the supposedly on the big one that makes you,

01:24:59   it makes someone think that it would be better

01:25:01   than the success.

01:25:02   It's like, well, it'll be faster because you know,

01:25:04   it'll have a better system on a chip on it

01:25:06   and doesn't everyone like faster?

01:25:07   And yes, I do like faster.

01:25:08   I was just complaining about slow iPhone last week

01:25:11   and dual cameras might be neat.

01:25:12   But on the other hand, they're taking away

01:25:14   the headphone port and the thing looks the same.

01:25:16   So maybe that's not enough.

01:25:18   - That's the thing.

01:25:19   I mean, from what we know from rumors,

01:25:21   well, no in quotes, what the rumors say so far

01:25:24   and what we've heard from various birdies and tipsters

01:25:27   is basically that, yeah, it's the same shape and size,

01:25:30   it's a little bit lighter weight,

01:25:32   and it's faster, a lot faster.

01:25:34   supposedly, and there was very briefly a MacRumors repost

01:25:38   of a story, blah, blah, blah, it appeared on their feed

01:25:41   and then was nowhere on their site, but I saved it,

01:25:43   of course, that there was allegedly a Leet-Geep-Inch test

01:25:47   of the new A10 chip, and if it was real,

01:25:52   it showed roughly a 50% performance increase over the A9.

01:25:57   So that's cool, you know, if that's real,

01:25:59   and that kind of matches up kind of what we've been hearing,

01:26:01   So, you know, it is probably a lot faster, and that's great.

01:26:05   But if things get more power efficient,

01:26:08   Apple spends it, basically.

01:26:09   Like any gains they get in efficiency,

01:26:11   they spend it in other places,

01:26:13   and they keep roughly the same target battery life.

01:26:15   Because they think in general

01:26:17   that they have good battery life,

01:26:19   and that's where I think like,

01:26:21   no, we need to work on that assumption there.

01:26:23   There was a great post on six colors a couple of years ago

01:26:25   where Jason basically went through

01:26:27   and graphed the battery life over time

01:26:29   by Apple's various testing metrics of iPhones and iPads.

01:26:33   And the iPhone graph varies a little bit,

01:26:36   but they're all kind of in the same range,

01:26:38   and the 6 Plus comes out, and it's like a big jump up.

01:26:42   It doesn't include the S generation, 'cause it's too old.

01:26:44   And then the funny thing is that the iPad battery life

01:26:46   is just a straight line.

01:26:48   Like, it's always 10 hours.

01:26:50   They've changed no part of that,

01:26:53   because any advances they make in power efficiency, et cetera,

01:26:58   they basically spend by making the battery smaller

01:27:03   or by increasing the power budget

01:27:05   for things like a faster CPU.

01:27:07   So Apple is clearly, as Jason put it in this article,

01:27:12   solving for X, or they've determined

01:27:15   a certain battery life to be, this is good,

01:27:18   this is a good target, we don't really need

01:27:19   to get much better than this, so any gains we make,

01:27:23   then we can make the devices thinner and lighter

01:27:25   or whatever, or make the CPU's faster or whatever.

01:27:28   And this is the problem, I don't see how we get off

01:27:31   this treadmill basically.

01:27:33   I see us continuing to make these incremental advantages,

01:27:37   incremental advances over here and there.

01:27:39   Next year, supposedly we're getting an OLED screen

01:27:43   and that'll be a big power savings,

01:27:44   but is that then going to go into making the phone

01:27:47   thinner and lighter?

01:27:48   Probably, or making other components use more power

01:27:52   or whatever else.

01:27:53   That's probably gonna happen instead

01:27:54   because Apple feels that this is good enough.

01:27:56   Because if they didn't feel this was good enough,

01:27:58   they would release a thicker one

01:27:59   that you could buy with more battery power.

01:28:01   - The thing about those graphs is,

01:28:02   Apple's controlling all aspects of them.

01:28:04   They control the product,

01:28:05   they also control the methodology of the measurement.

01:28:07   - That's true.

01:28:08   - And I assume Apple is adjusting the methodology

01:28:10   'cause they do collect all those stats and everything.

01:28:13   And what you were saying before is essentially

01:28:15   telling Apple, "Apple, you have to change your methodology

01:28:18   "even more than you have been

01:28:19   "because people use your phones in a different way

01:28:20   "because they can do many more things."

01:28:22   Like, if people are reading Twitter,

01:28:24   In 2008, 2009, people were reading Twitter on their phones.

01:28:27   It's like, it's a table view, full text,

01:28:29   and they're scrolling it.

01:28:29   Now people are Snapchatting.

01:28:31   That is a whole different battery use sort of profile.

01:28:36   So I assume Apple does update its methodology over time,

01:28:39   and based on our diagnostic data, they just say,

01:28:42   "Wow, people are really using more power

01:28:45   "per minute of staring at their phone

01:28:47   "because the applications they're using, as you said,

01:28:49   "are doing more interesting things."

01:28:50   So I would hope that they would update their methodology.

01:28:52   I can see a scenario where they keep that graph basically level, but keep changing their

01:28:56   methodology to say normal usage is now uses way more power than it used to.

01:29:02   And I think they must have been doing that already because it's not as if normal usage

01:29:04   in a 3GS is the same as normal usage on a 6.

01:29:07   They must be doing that.

01:29:08   It's just that, again, we're all saying that they're off the curve.

01:29:12   They think everything is fine and they're under.

01:29:14   Maybe just under, maybe under by a big amount.

01:29:16   And there are many ways they can solve it and they don't seem to be doing it.

01:29:18   But I still feel like they're within shooting distance of it, especially keeping the form

01:29:22   factor the same for three years in a row.

01:29:24   And the faster CPU, like 50% is a big jump.

01:29:29   So you get the advantage of things like Race to Sleep, where how can a faster CPU help

01:29:33   you save battery because it gets done with its computation and goes back into low power

01:29:36   mode faster, right?

01:29:39   We're all speculatants.

01:29:40   We don't know what the profile of this chip is.

01:29:42   They could burn all their extra energy on just more GPU cores for all we know because

01:29:46   'cause they love to do that and it's really easy

01:29:47   to add them and they do make your games faster.

01:29:50   - Well, but here's the problem though.

01:29:52   So much of modern computing, and much of it

01:29:55   with Apple devices right in the middle of it,

01:29:57   is based on this idea that we have to just conserve,

01:30:00   conserve, conserve, just sip power everywhere

01:30:02   and never push anything too hard for too long.

01:30:05   The thing, you know, race to sleep is a big part of that.

01:30:07   What if we had so much power

01:30:09   that we could actually use the CPU?

01:30:12   I know this is a radical concept.

01:30:14   - That's called a desktop computer

01:30:15   and I have one.

01:30:16   - Yeah, this is a radical concept I know,

01:30:18   but like over the weekend, I was,

01:30:21   this past weekend I was getting some work done

01:30:23   on my MacBook Pro, not playing games on it,

01:30:26   getting some work done on the MacBook Pro,

01:30:27   and I was running Xcode, and I was working

01:30:30   on the MP3 encoder, doing some tests

01:30:31   that we talked about last episode,

01:30:33   using Xcode, doing some builds,

01:30:34   and occasionally having like a one minute or so burst

01:30:38   of all four cores being maxed out,

01:30:41   and then going back to Xcode and coding, going back,

01:30:43   so you know, it was moderate to heavy use,

01:30:45   I'm not even talking about a handbrake transcode

01:30:48   for two hours, I'm just talking like it would max out

01:30:50   the cores sometimes for a minute or so

01:30:53   and then go back to moderate use of Xcode.

01:30:55   This made this laptop that is not very old

01:30:58   and that when you're not doing much on it,

01:31:00   has like a 10 hour quoted battery life,

01:31:02   have instead a four hour battery life.

01:31:06   And that sucks, it totally changes how you use it.

01:31:10   If I can use it around the house,

01:31:11   which I was doing all over,

01:31:13   we were upstate at my in-laws place,

01:31:17   so I was lounging around, not being plugged in,

01:31:20   tied down anywhere, it was great.

01:31:23   But if you have to plug in every few hours

01:31:26   to boost that back up, that's a lot less useful,

01:31:28   and it's a lot less compelling,

01:31:29   and wouldn't it be nice if you didn't have to do that?

01:31:32   And here they are, Apple has basically,

01:31:35   I mean, we'll see what the new MacBook Pros have in store,

01:31:38   but I'm guessing they're not going to have

01:31:40   twice the battery life, I'm guessing they're gonna have

01:31:43   about the same battery life and be thinner and lighter.

01:31:45   And that's what people want, and that's fine.

01:31:47   I wish that wasn't the only option,

01:31:49   'cause right now, everything Apple makes

01:31:50   is a thin and light.

01:31:52   And thin and lights are great for being thin and light,

01:31:54   they're only okay for battery life.

01:31:56   A lot of customers have different needs,

01:31:58   and this is why I really,

01:32:00   I mean, I guess I'll stop harping on this after this,

01:32:03   but I really am sad to see that Apple really keeps reducing

01:32:07   the amount of choice we have.

01:32:08   We have more and more choice in areas that don't matter,

01:32:12   color and then we have ever less choice on factors that are important to people like

01:32:19   me. Things like battery life and high-end specs and things like that. That worries me

01:32:26   for my future happiness on this platform.

01:32:29   Well, but you're painting your concerns as the only ones that matter. Apple is clearly

01:32:36   making these decisions based on what all of the millions upon millions upon millions of

01:32:42   iPhone users want. I do agree with you that 25 to 50 percent more battery life, I think,

01:32:49   would make every single iPhone user happier. But with that said, I don't think doubling

01:32:56   the thickness, and maybe that's aggressive, I don't know, but even 125 percent of the

01:33:02   thickness, now that we're all used to these little slivers of metal, I don't know if that would make

01:33:07   a lot of people happy. And I think a lot of people would look at that and go, "Ugh!" Even if the same

01:33:12   person that just went, "Ugh!" would really love to have 50% more battery life, the first reaction

01:33:17   would be, "Ugh!" Kind of like if they, I don't know, removed the headphone jack or something.

01:33:20   But I'm torn because I think to some degree you're projecting a little bit what your personal

01:33:29   needs and desires are and saying these are the only ones that matter because hey, guess what,

01:33:33   you're human. And since I have similar wants and needs for my devices, I tend to agree with you.

01:33:38   But I don't think we should throw everything out and say, "Oh, this is BS, and they're not really

01:33:45   doing what anyone wants," because I think most people do just want a thin and light phone that

01:33:48   lasts all day. The problem is that I don't think many people can get to that last all day part the

01:33:54   way it is now. And Jon had alluded to earlier, said earlier, "You know, if it was 15% better,

01:33:58   or maybe that would get you over the hump. Well, yeah, that that's probably true or for a lot of people but in my case

01:34:05   I'm

01:34:07   I'm probably at between 10 and 30 percent at the end of most days and

01:34:12   I think another 10 or 15 percent if I ended the day at between let's say 20 and 40 percent

01:34:18   That wouldn't make me stop stressing about my battery life

01:34:22   If I ended the day at 50 percent all the time like I did on my watch

01:34:26   Then I would not be stressed about battery life anymore. I think that's a personal problem. It's a personality

01:34:30   Percentage you become anxious because we all know people who like use their phone with a little battery meter in the red and they're fine

01:34:37   With it and other people when they get close to 50% same thing with gas tanks, by the way

01:34:40   My wife asked me today. She was talking about the light in the dashboard

01:34:45   Like what light like, you know

01:34:46   The light becomes on when you're running low on gas like I've never seen that light and neither should you what are you doing?

01:34:53   - But like, you know, Casey, I'm not arguing

01:34:56   that Apple should make products to fit me, period,

01:34:59   and ignore what everyone else wants.

01:35:01   I do wish there was more choice.

01:35:03   And even if that choice wasn't perfect for me,

01:35:05   right now, the way Apple targets the battery life

01:35:09   and other factors, but I think it's the big one,

01:35:12   the way they target this, you basically have

01:35:15   an entire product line where everything

01:35:18   has roughly the same battery life, or fairly close.

01:35:22   - Are we talking about the laptops?

01:35:23   we talk about the phones, 'cause the phones,

01:35:24   if you really want battery life, go Plus Club.

01:35:28   - Not if the screen's on.

01:35:29   The Plus has way better battery life

01:35:31   if you're talking on it, or if it's playing music

01:35:33   with the screen off, but when the screen's on,

01:35:36   it isn't that much better.

01:35:38   I think it's a little bit better,

01:35:38   but it's not that much better.

01:35:40   So a lot of these areas where you're using the screen

01:35:43   or the GPU, a lot of these things,

01:35:45   it actually wouldn't be tremendously better.

01:35:47   And that is fair, it is a lot bigger phone,

01:35:51   and I wouldn't mind if my 6S was thicker.

01:35:55   Anyway, Apple has spent the last few years

01:35:58   basically reducing the amount of choice we have

01:36:00   in key areas, or in something like the iPhone,

01:36:04   where now we have more choice in the iPhone,

01:36:06   but we have a lot of choice in ways

01:36:09   that maybe don't matter as much.

01:36:11   And one of the big things that everyone so often needs

01:36:16   is more battery life, and we don't really have a choice.

01:36:18   The only choice we have is a crappy choice

01:36:20   of bolting on additional battery packs to it,

01:36:23   like external, which suck,

01:36:25   because they have to have all the overhead

01:36:29   of being an external peripheral.

01:36:31   Their own casing, their own circuitry,

01:36:33   their own charging, their own ports,

01:36:34   their own cables, their connectors,

01:36:36   all the crap that's overhead

01:36:38   that isn't just the additional battery.

01:36:40   So that is a crappy solution,

01:36:42   and I hope that is not Apple's long-term only plan.

01:36:45   And finally, I will close this by,

01:36:47   there was a great line in our chat room a few minutes ago

01:36:50   from Chris LTD saying, "What's the point of having

01:36:53   "consumer and pro lines if the consumer and pro lines

01:36:57   "are basically the same thing?"

01:36:59   - The consumer lines get updated.

01:37:01   (laughing)

01:37:03   - Oh my god, that's amazing.

01:37:07   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.

01:37:11   Hover, Indochino, and Betterment,

01:37:15   and we will see you next week.

01:37:17   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:37:24   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:37:29   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:37:35   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:37:40   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:37:45   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:37:50   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:37:54   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:37:59   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:38:04   USA, Syracuse, it's accidental

01:38:09   They didn't mean to, accidental

01:38:14   ♪ I've got no tech podcast so long ♪

01:38:19   - So John and I shared a private moment before the show.

01:38:24   - Is this something that you need to keep private?

01:38:25   - Well, no.

01:38:26   Now I'm going to tell the whole world

01:38:27   about our private moment.

01:38:29   We used Google Duo together.

01:38:32   - Is that the thing where people can show obscene pictures

01:38:36   to other people who didn't agree to it?

01:38:38   - Yep, that's the one.

01:38:39   - Yes, you could choose to do that if you so desire.

01:38:42   - That whole idea is that it shows

01:38:43   puts on the-- before you even accept the call,

01:38:47   you see video from the other person.

01:38:48   I think there was something about that when I was doing it

01:38:51   that only if they're in your contacts already, that happens.

01:38:54   When we talked about it, it was after Google I/O.

01:38:56   And they demoed the feature.

01:38:57   And they didn't memorize it.

01:38:58   They didn't say anything about-- they

01:38:59   needed to just say a sentence that said, of course,

01:39:01   you can turn this off.

01:39:02   Or of course, it only works in x and y situations.

01:39:04   But instead, they said nothing and just presented it as, look,

01:39:07   isn't this great?

01:39:07   When you pick it up, before you hit the button that says, yes,

01:39:10   accept this video call, you're already seeing video from them.

01:39:13   like no no one thought about it for two seconds that's terrible unless unless

01:39:17   there's some kind of limitations and I'm not sure what they are I'm still not

01:39:21   sure what they are because Casey and I were just calling each other and we don't care

01:39:23   yeah but I don't think I saw you before I agreed to the call I thought that

01:39:29   feature was Android only well it said there was a thing that came up on my

01:39:33   screen that I thought well I tapped it like like a typical computer is you tap

01:39:36   it away before you read the thing it was like oh keep in mind that you're gonna

01:39:40   be on video is that okay you know and it was the button was like okay got it

01:39:43   Unfortunately, we tried this like just before we came on. Well, do you have your phone with you? Yeah, it's alright

01:39:47   I'll try it right now. Here we go. I'm gonna do your little

01:39:50   Alright, so do you want my phone do you want my phone to be to lock to be locked to be in the duo app?

01:39:56   How do you want me to do this? It doesn't matter

01:39:58   video call

01:40:00   You

01:40:02   The phone is okay incoming call from John Syracuse. Oh, this is a notification

01:40:06   Okay, I do see you. Do you see me? Yeah, but before you hit accept. Oh god. Oh god. Sorry

01:40:11   No, I did not see you before I hit accept. I thought I was muted. What the hell is this?

01:40:16   Let's see, settings.

01:40:17   Knock knock on.

01:40:20   That's what it's talking about. Knock knock.

01:40:22   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:40:23   Alright, well, let me try you.

01:40:24   Don't hit accept. Alright.

01:40:25   Wait, are you calling me or am I calling you?

01:40:27   You can call me this time.

01:40:28   Alright, let me try calling you.

01:40:29   Communication.

01:40:30   Smile, knock knock us on.

01:40:32   Alright, got it.

01:40:33   See, that's the thing. I'm telling you to smile.

01:40:35   My video is visible.

01:40:35   Yeah, I see you right now and I have not hit accept.

01:40:38   Oh, then I must have been a little too clunky.

01:40:40   I can hit decline or accept I'm gonna decline you oh

01:40:42   Well then wait wait go the other way one more time I want to see this now yeah, so the future totally exists here we go

01:40:51   This is super interesting okay, so I can see you right now. You can't see me nope oh

01:40:58   Interesting I'm declining you because now yeah, so this is the exact feature

01:41:01   We were talking about the fact that my mistake my mistake before Casey had decided whether you wants to accept this call

01:41:07   He is forced to see me and there is

01:41:09   That's the the the feature is called knock knock and I think if you turn that setting off it would you know anyway

01:41:14   I mostly wanted to use it just to see how does it compare to FaceTime because that's that's the role of this thing

01:41:18   It's a basically cross-platform FaceTime

01:41:19   If you can't do FaceTime with your relatives because they all have Android phones or because you have an Android phone and they have iPhones

01:41:24   Or whatever if everybody gets Google Duo, then you can do essentially the same stuff as FaceTime

01:41:29   across platforms without worrying about

01:41:32   Getting everyone in your family to use iPhones or getting everyone in your family to use Android or whatever the predecessor app to this

01:41:37   was if there was one. So I think that's good. The brief time that we used it, the one feature

01:41:42   that was annoying both of us was that the little window that shows you yourself, like

01:41:47   this is what the other person is seeing right now, it is cropped to a circle, which is infuriating

01:41:52   because of all the things we were showing each other. I was trying to show him my Fios

01:41:56   box in the basement when we were comparing our Fios boxes. This is where we ended up

01:42:00   showing each other. Anyway, I couldn't tell if the whole Fios box was in the frame because

01:42:05   I was holding my phone in portrait orientation because that's basically the orientation of

01:42:09   the files box and I wanted to get the whole thing in the shot, but because the preview

01:42:12   was circular I could never tell if it was entirely in the frame.

01:42:15   Now you can tap the circle which switches it and now all of a sudden the video I'm sending

01:42:20   takes up my whole phone and Casey's video is in a tiny little circle and that helps

01:42:24   me frame things but it's not really an improvement.

01:42:26   Now he's in a little circle and I want to see him so I feel like this is a solved problem.

01:42:30   Make the preview of the video the other person is seeing the same aspect ratio and like show

01:42:35   Show the full image so I know what the frame boundaries are because the circle is like,

01:42:38   I felt like I was looking through a little porthole and constantly trying to like make

01:42:42   sure he was seeing the whole thing.

01:42:43   But other than that, the video quality looked good.

01:42:46   We didn't have any disconnections that work fine.

01:42:47   The little ringy tone that you kind of heard over my microphone, depending on how much

01:42:50   Marco edits out, sounds nice and pleasant.

01:42:53   So I mostly give Duo a thumbs up except for the knock-knock feature being on by default

01:42:57   and possibly existing at all and the circular crop thing.

01:43:01   I didn't think it was on by default.

01:43:02   I thought I had to turn it on.

01:43:03   I'm wrong about that, but I thought I think maybe on first launch

01:43:07   It says that little like I said the thing that I swiped away without even looking at it

01:43:09   The thing I hit up was like, okay. Got it

01:43:12   I think it was telling you about knock knock just so you're aware this knock knock thing is on

01:43:15   I think the only option was okay got it, but I can't go through the first launch

01:43:19   Well, no, I what I saw was what you saw cuz I had only received a call

01:43:23   I had not placed one and it was just telling you hey right now. You're actually visible

01:43:28   So, you know don't do anything stupid

01:43:30   But I had thought in settings where there is absolutely a switch to flip for knock knock on or off

01:43:36   I thought I had expressly gone in there and turned it on but if you don't remember doing that perhaps I'm remembering wrong

01:43:43   No

01:43:43   I definitely didn't do that as first time actually we should see so turn knock knock off on your end and then I'm going to

01:43:48   Call you one more time because I think the setting applies to your end where I like

01:43:52   Don't you wish you had this installed Margo? Oh, I'm so upset that I missed this

01:44:00   Okay, I am prepared for you to knock on me. What did you just- didn't you just Instagram story? What did you Instagram story?

01:44:06   I think you Instagram story that the the screenshot of your windows thing not booting. Yeah, okay

01:44:10   So I'm getting an incoming video call. I see nothing. I just see a screen

01:44:14   Yeah, so that so basically you're controlling it not what you send but what you receive. Yeah, okay

01:44:19   So wait, so with me having knock knock off. I'm now going to call you

01:44:23   Can you see me at this point? I'm twisting my phone back and forth just to show you that something is moving

01:44:29   No, and in fact it just shows a blank screen like a black space

01:44:33   We were so so apparently if if either of us has knock knock off, then it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen

01:44:39   Yeah, so they just need to have that off by default or I mean make people more aware of it in first launch or anyway

01:44:45   Who knows I've had regular people won't mind it

01:44:48   But it just seems like you won't mind it until the first time you do mind it and then you'd be like

01:44:51   Did you know did it quiz you after the fact as to whether or not

01:44:59   The call was good. Did you notice that?

01:45:01   It did not quiz me. No quizzes. Oh interesting. I got on mine

01:45:06   What did this say? Hold on one second. I took a screenshot of it

01:45:10   This is a terrible screenshot that I won't be able to put in the show notes because I look like an idiot

01:45:14   But how's the call quality? Skip?

01:45:16   Unhappy face bad or happy face good. Actually, I'll take it. I'll crop just that little dialogue

01:45:21   You put that in the show notes. Can I skip this entire topic?

01:45:24   No, can I put it on happy face on it if you'd like or you could you know what you should do is also

01:45:30   I will put this

01:45:32   This image in the show notes, and you can just like sketch red circle the bad

01:45:37   Is that what that means?

01:45:40   Was it called pinpoint now? I forget we've been using we've been talking about this for a minute and a half

01:45:45   We talked about photography for 20 minutes more than that and you're already getting grumbly. He doesn't have they have installed

01:45:51   He should have been stalling it right now. You should have been a cool kid like us

01:45:54   - Yes.

01:45:55   So far you have not given it a ringing endorsement

01:45:58   in my opinion.

01:45:58   - Do you have family that doesn't have iPhones

01:46:00   that you would like to FaceTime with?

01:46:02   - No.

01:46:03   - See, that's the thing.

01:46:04   We do have, as I've talked about many times in the past,

01:46:07   my whole family is all iOS,

01:46:09   Aaron's whole family, except Aaron, is all Android,

01:46:12   and there have been times that we would really like

01:46:15   to video chat with Aaron's mom,

01:46:18   or actually my grandmother has some sort of Android phone

01:46:23   that's I believe expressly designed for senior citizens.

01:46:25   So there's, I think,

01:46:28   whatever physical buttons are on there are very large.

01:46:30   And I think that it's been oversimplified

01:46:33   and all the fonts are gigantic by default.

01:46:35   Well, anyway, next time I'm around her,

01:46:38   I hope I will be able to put Duo on her phone,

01:46:42   even though it's ancient.

01:46:43   And then we would be able to video chat with her.

01:46:45   It's not a jitterbug, but it's along those lines.

01:46:47   - Just get her an iPad.

01:46:49   - I've thought about it, but I don't know,

01:46:50   That's just one more thing for her to manage.

01:46:53   So anyway, so I'm excited about this.

01:46:55   I completely agree with Jon that the circular little

01:46:59   porthole into yourself is freaking terrible.

01:47:02   I do like that you can tap into your own image and bring it

01:47:06   up full screen, like Jon had said, because there have been

01:47:07   times I've wanted to do that in FaceTime and I can't.

01:47:10   It handled rotation just like FaceTime does, which is a

01:47:12   good thing.

01:47:13   That's a compliment.

01:47:15   And the video quality was great.

01:47:16   Dials instantly.

01:47:18   When I was video chatting with Jon on the show moments ago,

01:47:21   it seemed like there was very, very low latency.

01:47:24   I mean, it's all good in my book, I approve.

01:47:27   But I would certainly use FaceTime

01:47:30   as my default modus operandi,

01:47:33   and then if for some reason I need to video chat

01:47:36   with an Android user, then that's what Duo is for.

01:47:39   - I just get different friends.

01:47:41   - Oh, with only a different family too?

01:47:44   - I try. - I keep, yeah.

01:47:45   You can pick your nose.

01:47:47   You can pick your friend's nose.

01:47:48   But no.

01:47:49   I'm going to keep it on my phone because I

01:47:50   can keep all sorts of apps on my phone.

01:47:51   I really need to go through and clean stuff out.

01:47:53   But I'll probably keep it.

01:47:56   All right.

01:47:56   Cool.

01:47:58   (beep)