181: Eat Your Vegetables


00:00:00   Oh, goodness. John, how was your trip to Long Island?

00:00:04   Just lovely.

00:00:06   Mm-hmm. Do you like the beach? I hear you're plugging your phone in.

00:00:09   I am. I'm really muted when I do that when you ask me a question, so now you get to hear.

00:00:13   Behind the scenes, I plug in my phone so it charges while I record. It's exciting.

00:00:17   Why? Why not just do that when you go to bed?

00:00:20   I do. How long of a time span is it between when the podcast ends and when you go to bed, usually?

00:00:25   You never know.

00:00:27   Vacation was good.

00:00:29   Anything interesting to report?

00:00:30   You rented a camera.

00:00:31   Would you like to?

00:00:32   Yeah, a whole camera, right?

00:00:33   Would you like to talk about that at all?

00:00:34   Yeah, a camera and a bunch of lenses.

00:00:36   This was Marco's recommendation of what camera I should rent.

00:00:38   And the only reason I was doing it at all is because my wife

00:00:40   is going off on a cruise with her mother, which is a thing

00:00:43   to do.

00:00:43   Maybe we'll talk about later.

00:00:45   And she decided that our camera is not good enough.

00:00:49   She's had too much proximity exposure to Marco's fancy cameras

00:00:54   and other people's fancy cameras and it's like rubbing off on her. So she's like we should get

00:00:59   a better camera. I don't want to get a better... She's gonna go on this vacation and she wants to

00:01:03   have good pictures and she doesn't feel like our camera is up to the task. I think our camera is

00:01:07   plenty up to the task, but she disagrees. So I don't want to buy a new camera, but I know

00:01:12   Marco rents cameras so I asked him about his the camera rental service that he uses and he gave me

00:01:17   the URL and suggested a camera that we should rent because we didn't want something as big as

00:01:23   - I think it's Marcos, Marcos is not big,

00:01:24   it's not as big as like the 5D,

00:01:26   or it's not like a giant full frame SLR, but--

00:01:29   - Yeah, it's about as big as a mirrorless camera can get

00:01:32   and still be a mirrorless camera.

00:01:34   - Yeah, it's still full frame,

00:01:35   but it doesn't have the mirrors in it.

00:01:37   - To add some clarity here, since everybody will be asking,

00:01:40   the site that I recommended you rent from

00:01:42   is lensrentals.com.

00:01:43   There are a couple other sites,

00:01:45   that's the one I've used a lot over like--

00:01:47   - Same here. - Oh, geez, I don't know,

00:01:48   maybe over a decade?

00:01:49   I've used it for a long time.

00:01:52   They've been great, no complaints.

00:01:54   I've rented both lenses and entire cameras from them.

00:01:56   They've been great, lensrentals.com.

00:01:58   This is not a sponsorship.

00:01:59   The camera I recommended that you rent

00:02:01   is the Sony A6300.

00:02:03   It is Sony's new high-end, but still crop sensor

00:02:08   mirrorless camera.

00:02:09   It runs, I think like $1200, something in that range.

00:02:12   It's a very, very good camera.

00:02:14   It's about as good as you can get

00:02:15   without being a full-frame sensor.

00:02:18   The camera that I have is the Sony A7R II,

00:02:20   which is a full frame sensor, is a lot more money,

00:02:23   but is a lot bigger and is a lot higher quality images.

00:02:25   But the A6300 that I had, John Rent, is incredibly good.

00:02:30   And I would say if you're looking for a mirrorless camera

00:02:34   in the like $1000 range, that seems like it would be a really

00:02:38   it should be very high on your list.

00:02:40   That said, I have not actually used it.

00:02:41   This is all based on review info and experience

00:02:43   with other Sony cameras.

00:02:44   So John, how is the A6300?

00:02:46   - Well, looking at it compared to your camera,

00:02:49   I was surprised to see that there are a couple of specs

00:02:51   where the smaller, lesser camera is better.

00:02:54   For instance, a number of photos

00:02:55   it can take per second for burst mode.

00:02:57   It's like double the, maybe even triple

00:03:00   in the highest setting, what yours does.

00:03:03   And I think it had, I don't know what these specs mean,

00:03:07   but like the number of areas of phase detection

00:03:09   for auto focus was higher on this thing.

00:03:13   Like there's a couple of attributes that make me think

00:03:15   that this camera and this sensor came out after yours.

00:03:18   Is that the case?

00:03:19   - It did, yeah, and also when you have a smaller,

00:03:21   and yeah, they came out, I think it was like six months

00:03:23   or maybe a year after mine, and well, yeah,

00:03:27   between six and nine months, I think, after mine.

00:03:29   And also when you have a, so a full frame sensor

00:03:31   is a lot larger, I think it's 60% larger by area,

00:03:35   something like that.

00:03:36   - It's double the megapixels too, yours is 42,

00:03:38   this is 24, so it's close to double.

00:03:40   - Right, right, and so when you have a larger sensor

00:03:42   and you have more pixels, it is much harder

00:03:45   to make the surrounding electronics able to deal

00:03:48   with the sensor dumping like 100 photos a second off of it.

00:03:52   And so usually the smaller sensors

00:03:54   will have higher slow-mo video frame rates

00:03:57   and higher burst per second capacity

00:04:00   simply because there's a lot less data to deal with

00:04:03   and that has to be pulled off that sensor.

00:04:05   - Yeah, and the reason we weren't looking

00:04:06   at Marco's camera specifically is not particularly

00:04:08   because it's too expensive because the whole idea

00:04:10   was we were gonna rent it, but just because it's big

00:04:12   and we're going from a much smaller--

00:04:15   - It's all relative.

00:04:16   Well, much smaller, much lighter camera,

00:04:18   non-interchangeable lens camera.

00:04:20   We always have super zooms and they're all made of plastic.

00:04:22   So they're very light and they're small.

00:04:25   And if you're gonna be walking all over Europe,

00:04:27   maybe you don't wanna go right from a small light camera

00:04:29   to something as big as a marketer.

00:04:30   Which again is not as big as a full frame SLR,

00:04:33   but it's still pretty big.

00:04:35   And the magnesium aluminum body is not as heavy

00:04:38   as like a steel body or something,

00:04:39   but it's way heavier than a plastic one.

00:04:41   So this was a kind of a good choice for like,

00:04:44   it's gonna take good pictures,

00:04:45   But it's really, it's a very small body.

00:04:47   Like it's so small that a lot of the lenses look comical.

00:04:49   Like a lot of the Sonys have looked like this,

00:04:51   like they would the NEX series and all that.

00:04:53   They always looked like the lens was too big for the body

00:04:56   because Sony made these very small,

00:04:58   that's what you can do with mirrorless cameras,

00:04:59   very small looking bodies with pretty good sensors in them.

00:05:02   Sometimes to a fault,

00:05:03   because my brother has one of the earlier Sonys

00:05:05   and it was very often difficult to hold them,

00:05:07   like to find a place where you could grip them.

00:05:09   And Sony was making them kind of like

00:05:11   their PlayStation controllers,

00:05:12   like little pieces of art made of like conical sections

00:05:14   ideal solids and stuff, instead of saying no you have to you have to make it grippy.

00:05:18   So that's why when I used Marco's camera when I first saw his I was

00:05:21   happy to see that Sony has learned hey you should put grippy stuff on the part

00:05:24   where you grip. It's got like nice grippy rubber you know like camera grip stuff.

00:05:28   If you make the whole thing a smooth beautiful rectangle with a little bulge

00:05:31   it falls out of your hand and you're sad. So the a6300 is basically like a shrunken version of

00:05:36   Marco's. It's very small, it's still relatively heavy but most of the weight is in the lenses if

00:05:42   you use a larger lens and lenses I got was that the silly little kit lens that it comes with which

00:05:46   is like a I forget it was like 15 to 50 or something power zoom something like that yeah

00:05:50   something like that it's it's a it's a very small zoom range a very compact uh lens and it doesn't

00:05:57   seem to be very good um and I got a 50 millimeter prime and I got a what was it 30 to 140 to 105

00:06:07   zoom all these were Sony branded lenses that's another possible issue with these

00:06:13   things is that supposedly the Sony can take third-party lenses and do autofocus

00:06:17   on them but Marcos has the advantage that all the image stabilization stuff

00:06:21   is in the body not in the lens is this correct I'm not that's right well it's

00:06:27   both I mean a lot of the lenses have it but but yeah it mine has in body

00:06:31   stabilization right and this one doesn't so it relies somewhat on its ability to

00:06:35   work with lenses but there's a bunch of adapters for the lenses stuff anyway I

00:06:38   just got Sony lenses and I used it on vacation normally on my Long Island

00:06:41   vacations I take pictures you know just of the family hanging around at the

00:06:45   beach but I also take a lot of pictures of my family playing in the ocean and

00:06:48   when I take those pictures I'm usually up to my knees or my waist in the ocean

00:06:52   in the ocean waves in the surf and that's not a really good place to be

00:06:56   with an expensive camera I've always assumed that one year a wave will get me

00:07:01   and I will drop my camera but what is I don't know we're going on five years ten

00:07:05   years so far has not gotten me and the street continues but I plan to not even

00:07:10   bring the fancy camera to the ocean because I was like well you know I'll

00:07:13   use that one for all the pictures except the ocean pictures and also by the way

00:07:16   my super zoom is a 600 millimeter zoom it's ridiculous like it helps me get

00:07:20   when the surf is like far out I can be up to my knees and they can be way far

00:07:23   out and I can still get close-ups I really I really like my camera my super

00:07:26   zoom by the way is the Canon fz200 but when it came down to it I'd taken so

00:07:32   many pictures with the Sony I didn't want to leave it at home so I brought it

00:07:34   beach with me, in fact I brought both cameras to the beach, and I took a bunch of pictures with my

00:07:38   other camera and I'm like, you know what, I could probably take a few with the Sony, maybe go a

00:07:41   little deeper, maybe go up to my knees, go up to my, you know, the main thing that was holding me

00:07:45   back in the Sony is the zoom was just not, you know, it was only 105 millimeters. It's not, it

00:07:49   wasn't getting me close enough, it was, so some of the pictures were kind of far-right, but then it

00:07:54   gets 24 megapixels compared to whatever 12 or whatever my other thing is, so I could crop a lot

00:07:58   of them to get the same image quality out of it. But I kept it out of the ocean, I think I got a

00:08:03   couple of drops of water splashed on it but none on the lens. I'm pretty good at

00:08:08   staying away from all that and protecting the camera. The results were

00:08:12   really nice. Henry liked it and she's definitely gonna bring it on her

00:08:16   vacation. The only decision I have now is whether we're going to rent it again for

00:08:19   her vacation or just buy it. Yeah, I mean, so first of all I should point out that

00:08:23   Lensrentals has an incredibly broad insurance add-on that you can buy so

00:08:29   that would cover, I think it would cover your ocean fears. That you have to pay

00:08:33   10% still. I paid for like whatever the most expensive insurance was against damage and theft,

00:08:38   but even if the worst happens, you still have to pay 10%. And I had like, what was it like,

00:08:42   a $600 lens, a $150 lens, a $100 lens, and a $1000 body or whatever. So 10% of that is

00:08:49   still something I didn't want to pay. So how many lenses did you say you rented?

00:08:53   Just three. Just the prime, the zoom, and the little kit lens thing. Because I didn't know

00:08:57   which one I would end up using more of. As it turns out, what I ended up using was,

00:09:01   I almost never used the little kit lensy thing because I had two optically better lenses with me.

00:09:07   And indoors I used the prime because it was the F1.8, it was the one that took the best

00:09:13   low light pictures. And outdoors I used the zoom even though it was relatively huge just because

00:09:20   it gave me the most flexibility. And in all fairness your battle between like the reach

00:09:25   of the super zoom and the quality of the nice camera.

00:09:30   In all fairness, I did recommend that you consider the Sony RX10, which is its super

00:09:35   zoom.

00:09:36   But it doesn't have the same reach as this one.

00:09:37   I'm like, "I'm not going to get a super zoom.

00:09:38   I'm not going to get one that stops at 400 or something."

00:09:41   The RX10 II maybe does go to 600, but there was some other aspect of it that was worse

00:09:45   than my camera.

00:09:46   I think the most recent one actually might go out that far.

00:09:48   It's got a pretty big update.

00:09:50   But it's not f/2.8 through the whole zoom range, like this thing is.

00:09:53   No, that's pretty rare.

00:09:55   I mean, basically to achieve that you have to have a very small sensor.

00:09:58   I know, well then I do.

00:09:59   So anyway, not only is there no Sony SuperZoom that I can get at any price that I feel like

00:10:04   has better feature set, universally better than the one I have, but there's no Panasonic

00:10:09   one.

00:10:10   The Panasonic upgraded my camera too and made it worse for my purposes.

00:10:13   But anyway, that's the problem with the zoom lenses.

00:10:15   The problem with all the Sony lenses is that I don't know, the lenses get expensive really

00:10:20   fast.

00:10:21   There's no sort of, maybe I could talk to you about what lenses I should get if I actually

00:10:24   buy this thing, but there's no reasonably expensive zoom lens above like 100 something

00:10:31   millimeter of zoom. Like, forget about a 600, forget about a 400. I mean, I think I can

00:10:35   get like a 400 for $12,000. That's how much I can.

00:10:40   So you know, the problem is like what you're looking at here is you're looking at a lens

00:10:44   system that spans from prosumer to really like low to kind of mid-range pro. The Sony

00:10:52   full frame sensors like the A7 series have become very popular very quickly among high-end

00:10:58   users. And we can have lots of debates over whether they are considered pro cameras or

00:11:03   not, but it's kind of like asking whether the iPad is a computer. Whether or not they

00:11:08   are pro cameras, by some people's definitions, they are still being used by a lot of pros

00:11:11   for professional use. So it doesn't really matter whether you think they're a pro camera

00:11:15   or not because they are just incredibly good and incredibly compelling for a lot of reasons.

00:11:20   Anyway, so the problem is that when you have these large,

00:11:25   very dense, very high quality sensors,

00:11:28   you need really good lens glass in front of those

00:11:32   to be able to resolve enough detail

00:11:34   to really take advantage of what those sensors have to offer.

00:11:38   And so you can look at your little super zooms,

00:11:41   and super zooms, they sacrifice a lot of image quality

00:11:46   and optical quality to be able to put a large zoom range

00:11:50   into a relatively compact and relatively inexpensive body.

00:11:54   That's not really possible to,

00:11:56   it's like something has to give there.

00:11:58   If you're gonna have to serve a very large, nice sensor

00:12:02   with lots of megapixels of detail

00:12:05   and not have a bunch of distortion in the image,

00:12:07   I mean, some of that you can correct with software,

00:12:08   but still, try to avoid it if you can,

00:12:11   then you have to either shorten the range

00:12:15   in order to have less glass that needs to be in place

00:12:17   to get that high-quality image

00:12:18   to this high quality sensor without distorting,

00:12:21   or you have to put just a ton of glass

00:12:23   in front of that thing, tons of like highly engineered

00:12:27   lens elements and these very expensive,

00:12:29   very large, very heavy lenses.

00:12:30   And so it's just this trade off

00:12:33   between all these different factors of like,

00:12:34   well, if you wanna have something that is small and light

00:12:38   and probably cheap and also has big zoom range,

00:12:41   it can't have good optical quality.

00:12:43   And if you want something that is small

00:12:45   with good optical quality,

00:12:46   you should really be probably using a prime.

00:12:48   If you want something large with good optical quality

00:12:51   and you have a limited budget

00:12:54   and you don't mind carrying these giant heavy lenses,

00:12:57   the lenses you see in the new high-end Sony FE lineup,

00:13:01   that's the market they're targeting.

00:13:02   They're targeting the Canon L series lenses and stuff

00:13:05   and whatever the Nikon,

00:13:06   I forget what the Nikon Pro ones are called.

00:13:08   They're targeting that market of pro photographers,

00:13:10   the people you see on the sidelines of sports games,

00:13:13   the giant white lenses.

00:13:14   They're targeting that market now

00:13:16   because their cameras are so good,

00:13:18   they're starting to be used in that kind of industry,

00:13:19   which is pretty impressive for a mirrorless to begin with.

00:13:22   But anyway, so for what you're looking for,

00:13:26   you should probably honestly consider the RX10,

00:13:29   their super zoom, or at least only consider using the Sony

00:13:34   for occasions in which you don't really need massive reach

00:13:38   of a telephoto zoom, because that's just like,

00:13:41   you're looking at a market that is designed

00:13:43   for very different needs and is optimizing

00:13:45   for very different factors in that trade-off of lens design,

00:13:48   you're trying to get out of that market

00:13:50   like a 600 millimeter lens,

00:13:53   try to find a 600 millimeter Canon L lens

00:13:55   and you will see quite what this kind of quality

00:13:58   and what this kind of market is like.

00:14:01   They get pretty ridiculous pretty fast.

00:14:03   I would say this is kind of like your Mac Pro

00:14:06   versus gaming PC thing, right?

00:14:08   You kind of want the impossible out of this high-end thing,

00:14:11   but what you really actually need is a low-end thing.

00:14:13   No, there's no 2008 Mac Pro equivalent.

00:14:15   This 2008 Mac Pro was perfect in 2008.

00:14:18   Did everything.

00:14:19   But no, so what I learned on the vacation is that

00:14:21   I'm willing to give up the zoom range

00:14:23   for the better quality.

00:14:24   'Cause first of all, with the Prime,

00:14:26   this can take pictures indoors

00:14:28   that nothing else I have could take.

00:14:29   This is the reason I never wanted to get a high-end camera

00:14:31   'cause you get used to it and you're like,

00:14:32   well, no, I can't go back.

00:14:33   How can you go back from using, you know,

00:14:36   a reasonably good camera for indoor photography?

00:14:39   Like you can't go back 'cause all the pictures,

00:14:42   other pictures are garbage indoors

00:14:43   there's no light and your phone can't get the light and nothing else can and you know so and

00:14:48   Then then at the beach when I had the choice between both cameras. I had them both right there

00:14:52   I was using both of them eventually by the last day. We were at the ocean

00:14:56   I just didn't even take out the Panasonic the whole time. I used the Sony the whole time

00:14:59   You know and by that

00:15:01   Then I was brave enough to go in the water with it

00:15:03   And I didn't mind the fact that I was a little bit farther away

00:15:05   Because the you know had more megapixels and I could crop them if I really needed to but in the end

00:15:11   Even if I was a little bit farther away the increased image quality was was worth it to me

00:15:15   I mean, so maybe I like a little bit bigger zoom American, you know, I'll shop around but like I'm looking at Sony's lenses now

00:15:22   They're 500 millimeter. You're right that the signal is when the lens is white run away. It's probably like a rhyme

00:15:27   Lens is white. The price is not right the 500 millimeter f4g SSM. Whatever those letters stand for

00:15:34   $12,999 so I don't think I'll be skipping that lens. There's also the size of a truck like

00:15:40   It's also a bad sign when the lens itself is the thing that mounts to the tripod and not the camera because now the camera

00:15:45   Is just hanging off the end of the lens. These are all bad signs for your budget

00:15:48   300 millimeter one for only seven thousand five hundred

00:15:52   Anyway, I'll probably just end up getting this camera with the kit lens and a prime and then save up for a zoom

00:15:59   Because I mean I enjoyed it that much like it was it was heavier but not that much heavier and the size wise it was

00:16:08   okay

00:16:09   ergonomically and UI wise I still think cameras have a long way to go like I

00:16:13   Mean I recognize this is a big improvement over the old Sony's who's got my brother had an older one

00:16:17   like this is this is better doesn't have a touchscreen which would help but

00:16:20   camera manufacturers need to need to get over the idea that the the best way to arrange all your options is

00:16:27   In a big linear list over a series of screens like this one has tabs and then within each tabs

00:16:34   There's a number line like search results that has seven screens

00:16:37   is just a bunch of text things like that's not it's it's organized kind of but you can imagine

00:16:43   a much better ui to organize because i can never remember where the hell is the feature this thing

00:16:47   like they weren't organized in any logical way other than like these are the camera settings

00:16:51   these are the ones under gear these are settings but not camera related set it's just it's a

00:16:55   terrible organization but at least they've gotten on the bmw page and said look we put a bunch of

00:16:59   buttons on this thing and most cameras do this but apparently so many have been bad about this

00:17:02   in the past we have a bunch of buttons you can program they're all to do anything you want we

00:17:06   We printed something next to the buttons that have little abbreviations that tell you what

00:17:09   they do by default, but if you don't like that, you can make any button do anything

00:17:14   for the most part, which is another business in the universe.

00:17:16   Like, what do you want this button to do?

00:17:17   Scroll through this list of literally 70 options and find the thing you want.

00:17:21   It's really terrible.

00:17:22   And then everything cameras want to do on camera, like there's a tab that says apps.

00:17:26   Just no, Sony.

00:17:27   There are no apps that I want to run.

00:17:28   I want your camera to take pictures, maybe on camera convert to JPEG, which by the way,

00:17:33   this one doesn't even do.

00:17:34   It's just the raws you have to pull off.

00:17:36   But everything else...

00:17:37   Wait, what?

00:17:38   It doesn't convert to...

00:17:39   You can't do like in-camera conversion where you shoot in raw and then fiddle with it and

00:17:44   then do a conversion to JPEG before you pull it off.

00:17:47   Oh, okay.

00:17:48   I see what you mean.

00:17:49   You can shoot JPEG plus raw, you can shoot raw, you can shoot JPEG, but a lot of cameras

00:17:52   have a thing where you shoot in raw and then on the camera screw with the whatever you're

00:17:56   gonna screw with to get the, you know, pull out the detail from the shadows and blah,

00:17:59   blah, blah.

00:18:00   And then just pull off JPEGs that are burned in like that.

00:18:03   Why would you want to do that?

00:18:05   Okay, well, okay.

00:18:05   - To save room.

00:18:07   You know, because that's another thing.

00:18:08   Like, and now I understand why my brother has the problem

00:18:10   that he can't use iCloud library

00:18:13   because he has more than one terabyte of photos.

00:18:16   And why does he have more than one terabyte of photos?

00:18:18   Because he shoots raw on his little Sony.

00:18:20   And so, yeah, each of these raws is like 25 megs each

00:18:23   compared to like three or four megs in JPEG

00:18:28   and even smaller.

00:18:28   And so I filled the 64 gig card

00:18:32   and a little bit of another card.

00:18:34   - Yeah, I mean in all fairness,

00:18:35   buying a larger SD card is probably a lot easier

00:18:39   and they're pretty cheap now than having to fiddle

00:18:42   with like taking up space on the camera

00:18:44   because the other thing too is like,

00:18:46   a larger SD card is a gettable easily,

00:18:50   you know, pretty easily thing.

00:18:51   What is not so easy is to get these cameras batteries

00:18:55   to last very long when the screens are on.

00:18:57   And I mean that's the one thing like Sony,

00:19:00   I love my camera.

00:19:01   I love almost everything about it,

00:19:02   but the battery life is embarrassing.

00:19:04   And I have all these different power-saving tips.

00:19:07   It has Wi-Fi, but you can put it in airplane mode

00:19:09   to turn the Wi-Fi up.

00:19:10   - Yeah, I did that immediately,

00:19:11   as soon as I took this out of the box.

00:19:12   - Yeah, my camera has always been in airplane mode.

00:19:14   (laughing)

00:19:15   Because the battery life is so bad,

00:19:17   I need all the help I can get. (laughing)

00:19:19   - I had to turn the back screen on sunny day mode.

00:19:22   I'm sure you don't have yours in sunny day mode,

00:19:24   because sunny day mode means max brightness on the screen.

00:19:27   And guess what?

00:19:28   I needed that because it was a sunny day at the beach,

00:19:29   otherwise I couldn't see a thing

00:19:30   and I couldn't use the viewfinder the whole time.

00:19:32   - Yeah, I usually when I'm shooting,

00:19:33   I will almost always be using the optical viewfinder

00:19:36   just because I prefer the additional detail

00:19:38   that I'm able to see just because it is closer to my eye

00:19:41   and there's no outside light coming in and everything else.

00:19:44   So anyway, so yeah, I mean, honestly I recommend

00:19:48   possibly giving up on the idea of zooms for the most part

00:19:52   because honestly, like, the trade-off is so big

00:19:56   in terms of quality or size and money.

00:19:59   You can get Zooms that are,

00:20:03   and there's only very few of them that this is true for,

00:20:06   but you can get Zooms that are about as good as most Primes.

00:20:10   They do exist, but they're massive, heavy,

00:20:13   and very expensive, and there aren't that many of them.

00:20:17   Most Zooms, you're giving up a lot of quality

00:20:20   to get that Zoom flexibility.

00:20:22   And if you think about, when you shoot with your iPhone,

00:20:25   you have a prime on there, except for the next

00:20:28   large iPhone Plus that's gonna have the optical zoom.

00:20:31   So when you shoot with your iPhone,

00:20:33   you're shooting with effectively a 35 millimeter prime.

00:20:36   And you've been shooting with that 35 millimeter prime

00:20:38   on your iPhone for the last seven years or whatever,

00:20:41   however long it's been, well you haven't John,

00:20:42   everyone else has. (laughing)

00:20:46   You know, it's been a while and we've gotten used to that

00:20:48   and it's fine and it turns out that when you just have

00:20:51   like a decent prime in the wide to normal range,

00:20:55   you can get pretty much all of your photography done

00:20:57   that way most of the time, and it's great.

00:21:01   And the trade-off is worth it of like,

00:21:02   well, if you have a prime here,

00:21:03   then you can make this thing much smaller and cheaper

00:21:05   and have higher quality and everything.

00:21:07   Same thing is true for any size camera.

00:21:09   Anybody listening, if you have an SLR,

00:21:12   anything with interchangeable lenses,

00:21:13   if you don't have a prime lens,

00:21:15   which means it's fixed at one focal length,

00:21:16   you can't zoom it, you zoom with your feet,

00:21:19   if you don't have a prime lens,

00:21:22   whatever camera system you own,

00:21:24   get the cheap 50 millimeter prime lens for it.

00:21:27   There is, it is, almost every camera system

00:21:29   has something like this where it is 50 millimeter

00:21:31   or whatever the equivalent is for your sensor size.

00:21:35   Usually it's f1.8 and usually it's like 100 bucks

00:21:38   in that range, it's fairly inexpensive for a lens.

00:21:41   The optical quality you can get out of those

00:21:44   is it just kicks the butts of zoom lenses.

00:21:47   It's so, and you know, like you were saying earlier, John,

00:21:50   that's the one you were saying you were using indoors

00:21:52   because when you're indoors or when it's not that much light,

00:21:56   you can really get a lot of light in there.

00:21:57   And even when you have lots of light,

00:21:59   the sharpness and the color and just the optical quality

00:22:03   that you get out of these lenses is amazing

00:22:05   because they can be so much simpler than a zoom.

00:22:07   Like, just there's fewer elements.

00:22:09   The elements, you know, they can afford

00:22:10   to get higher quality optics in there at that price point

00:22:13   when you don't have all those elements to zoom things

00:22:15   or to have a weird perspective

00:22:17   or the extreme, you know, wide or extreme narrow.

00:22:20   Primes are just so nice.

00:22:22   It's like I've found that even when I have a big camera,

00:22:25   I spend the vast majority of my time using primes,

00:22:29   and even when I've used zooms,

00:22:31   I mostly have not liked the pictures that I get from them.

00:22:34   The primes are just so much better.

00:22:36   And so I urge anybody with cameras out there

00:22:39   to consider just shooting with primes,

00:22:41   because it really is incredible.

00:22:43   And there are situations where you quote, "need a zoom,"

00:22:46   but I bet there's a lot fewer of those than you expect,

00:22:49   and for a lot of camera owners,

00:22:50   You basically never have those.

00:22:53   And a lot of those can be covered by renting.

00:22:55   - Yeah, so we're going on a trip soon

00:22:58   and I have rented a lens from lensrentals.com.

00:23:01   I did so a few days ago because I also use lens rentals,

00:23:03   although probably a lot less frequently.

00:23:05   I rented a 35 to 100 millimeter zoom

00:23:09   for my Micro Four Thirds camera.

00:23:11   And I did that because I want to be able to be a creeper.

00:23:15   Basically, I wanna be able to capture,

00:23:18   what I mean by that is with my own family.

00:23:20   Oh God, taking out of context, that sounds terrible.

00:23:23   - Yes. (laughs)

00:23:24   - Dear God.

00:23:25   No, what I mean by that is, so if we're all at a beach

00:23:28   or if we're all in a rented house together,

00:23:31   so it's only people I know,

00:23:33   I don't want to have to get up in somebody's face

00:23:37   in order to take a really good picture of them.

00:23:38   I wanna be able to be across the room

00:23:40   where they don't even know I'm taking a picture,

00:23:42   so it's a lot more natural.

00:23:43   But that being said, generally speaking,

00:23:45   the only lens that is ever on my camera is a 25 millimeter.

00:23:49   I have no idea what the equivalent of that is in a SLR, but it's a 25mm.

00:23:53   I think it is a 50mm equivalent.

00:23:56   Your pictures look just like 50 pictures.

00:23:57   Okay, so it's a 25mm f1.4 that Sean Blanc had recommended, and it is very expensive.

00:24:03   It was like $600, but it is an unbelievably phenomenally good lens to my eye, and I don't

00:24:08   know crap about this stuff.

00:24:10   And if I ever take a decent picture, it's because I've gotten lucky and because of this

00:24:14   lens.

00:24:15   rented this zoom just like Marco said because I want to have something to take the pictures

00:24:20   you know maybe in the surf or something like John was describing or or take pictures from

00:24:24   across the room but generally speaking I never bother with a zoom and I do have the kit zoom

00:24:28   for this Olympus camera that I have and it's freaking terrible. I can't give up on the zoom

00:24:32   though like the one I was using this is a cheap zoom lens I don't like $600 18 to 105 millimeter

00:24:37   Sony zoom lens it's for it's for the APS-C format it's not a full frame lens so maybe that's why

00:24:44   why it's cheaper. And I was really happy with the pictures it took outdoors in the bright

00:24:48   sunlight on the beach. And it's the same reason Casey said, most of the time I like to have

00:24:52   candid pictures and either I don't want to or can't get close. So like people are all

00:24:56   around I can't get close to them. If I do they start acting weird. So I have to, you

00:25:01   know, or they're far out on the water. Like they see you coming with the camera and they

00:25:05   all turn and smile and ham it up and I like candid pictures better. And so I can capture

00:25:10   them like 100 millimeter zoom is enough for like in an outdoor gathering of people to get close

00:25:15   enough to get groups of people as if you're right next to them without being on next to them. The

00:25:18   surface a little bit it's a little bit low but again I can I can crop and I mean to my eye

00:25:25   obviously the the aperture wasn't like it was on the prime like so you couldn't you know open it up

00:25:31   super wide and get the entire you know background nice and blurred and everything sharp and maybe

00:25:35   that I had you know I did a little f1.8 50 millimeter prime that Marco was

00:25:40   talking about cheap but good but I mostly outdoors I use the big zoom and I

00:25:45   thought I would be bothered by how darn big it is but it was I was able to

00:25:49   wrangle it fairly easily and I felt like it was worth it like that's that's lens

00:25:53   believe it or not that I ended up using the most I thought I would end up using

00:25:56   the prime the most but I end up using this fairly large zoom the most so I

00:25:59   don't know what I'm gonna do maybe I'll just get that same lens it's only $600

00:26:02   but in the beginning I'll probably just get the prime and the kit lens or maybe

00:26:05   Maybe I'll buy the body without a lens and just get the Prime for it just to save some

00:26:09   money.

00:26:10   I don't know.

00:26:11   I haven't decided yet.

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00:28:21   (upbeat music)

00:28:24   - Our days, Marco, of lording over John

00:28:27   and feeling superior to him,

00:28:29   I'm sad to say they're over, because John now has a blue checkmark.

00:28:34   I was afraid you were going to say he finally got a new computer.

00:28:36   Oh, God, no. Come on. Let's not get ridiculous.

00:28:39   Yeah, so, John, congrats on your blue checkmark, my friend.

00:28:42   My computer's still better than yours too, KZ.

00:28:44   Is it? It doesn't crash.

00:28:46   I was waiting for it. That's why I didn't say anything, because I knew that was coming.

00:28:49   Before we go to the checkmarks, what is the status of your computer? Has the problem recurred?

00:28:53   It has not and I haven't lost power for let's see

00:28:57   Six days 14 hours and 28 minutes still stock RAM in it is your computer plugged into the UPS yet?

00:29:02   No, it's not because I don't want to reboot it. That's why because I wanted to I wanted to keep this damn run going

00:29:08   It has not lost power does not rebooted. It does still have the OEM RAM in it. So I am still

00:29:14   Perhaps perhaps unfairly. I'm still convinced. It's the max sales RAM

00:29:20   Okay, well you should get a get on getting that replaced then did you know that mem test x64 thing that does like the super duper?

00:29:28   Thorough ram test I did not x86 come on

00:29:30   Whatever it is. That's what I that's what I said in my head, but my mouth did something different

00:29:35   You're such not a PC nerd every piece of nerd knows that

00:29:39   That's what I said in my head, but the words came out differently. It's pronounced 1086 now, but what did I actually say?

00:29:45   You said x64.

00:29:46   Oh, I was probably thinking, you know, the modern instruction set.

00:29:51   They should rename their memory test.

00:29:53   So anyway, the point is this is still going strong on the OEM RAM, and whenever this thing

00:30:00   decides to reboot itself or I lose power next or after like two to four weeks I haven't

00:30:05   decided what I consider to be a long enough run, then at that point I will officially

00:30:10   start the RMA process with Maxells.

00:30:13   - Didn't you have to install the 10 whatever,

00:30:16   six update recently?

00:30:17   The really critical security updates

00:30:19   with the image parsing?

00:30:20   - I don't recall.

00:30:22   I know what you're talking about.

00:30:23   I don't recall if I did it or not.

00:30:24   - You should do that if you haven't yet.

00:30:25   - Yeah, well.

00:30:27   All right, well, we'll see.

00:30:29   Maybe I'll just not use my computer for the next week.

00:30:32   Swear I don't have to reboot it.

00:30:35   I don't know, we'll see what happens.

00:30:36   But anyway, so to come back on point,

00:30:38   John, you are verified.

00:30:39   Congratulations, you are a sellout just like me.

00:30:41   We are not good enough like Marco

00:30:42   to have received our check marks without solicitation.

00:30:46   - In all fairness, I did basically ask for it,

00:30:48   just not directly.

00:30:49   - Hell yeah, I guess that's true.

00:30:50   - Yeah, he just did the informal version

00:30:52   of the same thing that you did.

00:30:53   (laughing)

00:30:53   But yeah, but most importantly now,

00:30:54   we are the Fully Verified podcast, obviously.

00:30:57   So is Analog for that matter.

00:30:58   Many of our Fully Verified podcasts are happening now.

00:31:01   Let's just put, by the way,

00:31:03   so I got my check mark,

00:31:05   Petitchi did not get his,

00:31:07   Brianna did not get hers, so there is still--

00:31:09   - Renee.

00:31:10   - Renee didn't get his?

00:31:11   Nope.

00:31:12   Did he still read it?

00:31:12   Did he get rejected or just hasn't heard back yet?

00:31:13   Rejected.

00:31:14   No, he got rejected.

00:31:15   Rejected!

00:31:16   I don't know what the world's coming to.

00:31:17   I don't know what the hell's going on.

00:31:18   Anyway, there's still massive injustice in this world.

00:31:22   There is.

00:31:23   For those of us who don't actually need it on this podcast, guess what?

00:31:25   We got it.

00:31:26   Makes no sense.

00:31:27   Oh, and people are asking me if I'm going to change my bio that I complained about,

00:31:31   mostly on Rec. Diff's, about having to write this silly bio.

00:31:34   Now I'm afraid to change it, because I'm afraid if I change it, I'll lose my checkmark.

00:31:37   [laughter]

00:31:39   So I just have to leave this silly, embarrassing bio there forever?

00:31:44   Or maybe just give it a year and then it's safe for me to change it?

00:31:46   I don't know.

00:31:47   So do I have to be influencer forever?

00:31:51   I think you can change it.

00:31:52   I'm not sure if you make it go away if they'll get upset, because part of what you have to

00:31:56   do to have a checkmark is to have a bio.

00:31:59   The funny thing about this whole experience for me is that I have apparently become—I

00:32:04   don't know how to put this.

00:32:06   I've become like the litmus test for like, "Oh, Casey got verified. Of course, insert

00:32:12   person here, should totally be verified." So I saw that about Renee, I saw that about

00:32:16   Federico. Dude, Casey got verified. Of course this person should be verified. So that's

00:32:22   my new claim to fame. I should change my bio. I'm that guy you couldn't believe got verified.

00:32:27   That's me.

00:32:28   You just have to find someone who you think is even less deserving of being verified and

00:32:31   then you just point to them.

00:32:32   Yeah, right. God, I don't know, whatever. But yeah, so I get to see those tweets fly

00:32:35   that fly by every few hours.

00:32:38   Dude, Renee didn't get his thing?

00:32:40   I can't believe that.

00:32:41   Casey got one.

00:32:42   Gah!

00:32:43   - My favorite thing is how when people are

00:32:45   just backhand insulting you like this,

00:32:47   they feel the need to mention you, to @mention you.

00:32:50   - Right, exactly, exactly.

00:32:52   It's so true.

00:32:53   Like, okay, if you wanna think that,

00:32:55   I mean, knowing me, I'll probably find it

00:32:56   in a vanity search because hello.

00:32:58   But at least have the decency not to mention me.

00:33:02   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:33:03   So anyway, so we are the Fully Verified Podcast,

00:33:05   That's very exciting.

00:33:06   All right, moving on.

00:33:08   Where is Tif these days, Marco?

00:33:11   I don't know how to pronounce the more specific location.

00:33:14   However, the general location is France.

00:33:17   Fair enough.

00:33:18   Yeah, Tif, my wife, is on a vacation for the week, so I am solo parenting this week.

00:33:23   How's that going?

00:33:24   Well, I mean, it's only been like three days so far, so for these three days it's

00:33:28   been totally fine.

00:33:29   But there's four more?

00:33:31   Something like that?

00:33:32   Yeah, so there's still a while to go.

00:33:34   I'm mainly finding it challenging that like last night,

00:33:38   so last night was Sunday night,

00:33:39   and he's in like a school day camp,

00:33:43   just like a day camp at his preschool,

00:33:44   'cause it's summertime.

00:33:45   I have to pack his lunch every day,

00:33:47   and I realized last night that like a big part

00:33:49   of what we pack is fruit of some kind,

00:33:52   like raspberries or strawberries or something.

00:33:55   And there was just nothing in the fridge,

00:33:56   so we had none.

00:33:57   And he was already in bed.

00:33:58   It was like 10 o'clock at night.

00:34:00   - Oh no. - And I'm like,

00:34:01   "Well also, Marco doesn't know where food comes from."

00:34:03   (laughing)

00:34:04   No, food usually comes from me going shopping for it,

00:34:07   but I can't leave the house with him asleep.

00:34:09   - You gotta go shopping with the kid, imagine that.

00:34:12   - Yeah, that's what we did today.

00:34:13   But yeah, there's just little things like that

00:34:15   that I had to realize, like, oh,

00:34:18   when you have two parents in the house,

00:34:19   one of them can leave and go run an errand

00:34:22   and you don't go to jail.

00:34:24   You know, so it's--

00:34:24   (laughing)

00:34:27   So it's been a slight limited experience like that,

00:34:29   but otherwise, yeah, things have been going pretty,

00:34:31   you know, like I've had him before alone,

00:34:33   I think this is the longest span that we've ever had.

00:34:37   Now see the chat room, see this is a rookie mistake here.

00:34:40   So, Sup in the chat room has suggested

00:34:43   that I go food shopping while he is at camp.

00:34:46   That is an interesting idea, Sup, I thought of that.

00:34:49   However, then after school in the six hours

00:34:53   before he goes to bed, that's one less thing

00:34:56   we could do together.

00:34:57   (laughing)

00:34:58   We have a whole week here, a whole week.

00:35:01   So any Aaron that I can run with him,

00:35:04   I'm going to run with him.

00:35:06   - Yep, I know those feels.

00:35:08   And that actually segues somewhat nicely

00:35:11   into a brief bit of follow-up I wanted to discuss,

00:35:14   which was a friend of the show, _DavidSmith,

00:35:17   came down to visit on Friday evening into Saturday morning.

00:35:21   We watched "The Hunt for an October" together

00:35:23   because it's one of the best movies in the entire world,

00:35:25   come at me.

00:35:26   And then Saturday morning, which is,

00:35:28   I think you guys do Sunday, Marco,

00:35:30   But in the List household, we do Saturday morning into naptime, daddy time.

00:35:37   And Dave joined me on this, and we took his Tesla to Cars and Coffee.

00:35:42   It was Underscore and Declan and myself.

00:35:45   And we took the Tesla to Cars and Coffee, and it was funny because I had promised him

00:35:50   that we would try to find the self-organizing group of Teslas.

00:35:55   That always shows up.

00:35:56   There's typically three or four of them.

00:35:58   I even saw a Model X there one or two times ago, which was surprising.

00:36:02   But anyway, we showed up in the Tesla and I drove there, which I was slightly perturbed

00:36:06   by only because I felt like this was Dave's big moment.

00:36:09   And here it is, he can get out of his car and be like, "Yes, well, this is so not _style,

00:36:14   but yes, look at me in my Tesla.

00:36:15   This is mine and I am proud of it."

00:36:18   But instead it was me.

00:36:19   Instead it was me who got out of the driver's seat.

00:36:21   And of course, we stepped out of the driver's seat, or I stepped out of the driver's seat.

00:36:24   Within, I kid you not, 15 seconds, somebody came running over to ask questions.

00:36:27   I basically threw my hands in the air and waved them like I just don't care.

00:36:30   No, I threw my hands in the air and said, "Dude, it's his car.

00:36:33   You should ask him about it."

00:36:34   But yeah, it made quite a splash.

00:36:36   People quite liked it.

00:36:37   We were backed in, as you do, because I'm not an animal, and I was backed in against

00:36:42   a Maserati.

00:36:43   So, it was pretty interesting.

00:36:45   But it was funny how many people were just completely impressed by and interested in

00:36:51   the Tesla.

00:36:52   And perhaps even more surprisingly, really loved the rear jump seats.

00:36:56   They really thought the rear jump seats were interesting, to the point that I think it

00:37:00   was a kid, it was like a 15, 18 year old, something like that, asked if he could jump

00:37:05   in the jump seats just to see how they felt, which Underscore, because he's the nicest

00:37:10   man alive, was like, "Yeah, sure, definitely feel free."

00:37:14   But it was funny, and Underscore is hysterical watching him do this because he's like the

00:37:19   most easygoing guy.

00:37:20   Meanwhile, I wouldn't be able to hide the fact that my, you know, my plumage had come

00:37:25   come out in full force, if you will, if it were me.

00:37:28   But Underscore's just like, yeah, you know, it's a thing.

00:37:30   He's just so much better than I am.

00:37:32   - He's just way cooler than all of us.

00:37:34   - Yeah, pretty much.

00:37:35   What a nice car, though.

00:37:36   I kind of am mad at him now,

00:37:37   because I've forgotten how much I hate my car.

00:37:39   I had forgotten how much I hate my car,

00:37:41   and then I drove his Tesla again,

00:37:42   and now I hate my car again.

00:37:43   - You have a very nice car.

00:37:45   Just the Tesla's better.

00:37:46   - I have a wonderful car, I truly do.

00:37:49   But, God, the Tesla's so nice.

00:37:50   - I saw a white M3 today and thought of you.

00:37:52   - Aw, thanks, buddy.

00:37:54   - Is it a new one or an older one?

00:37:55   - That was the last generation, the one that you like,

00:37:57   but it was the two-door convertible.

00:37:59   I think it was convertible, it was at least two-door,

00:38:01   so it was the weird one.

00:38:03   - Snap question, I know we're not really

00:38:05   in the neutral part of the show, but I have to ask.

00:38:06   A friend of the show who will remain nameless

00:38:10   has been debating between M2 and Boxster S.

00:38:14   What do you think?

00:38:15   - So with the caveat that I've driven neither,

00:38:17   I would say, I mean, those are very different cars.

00:38:19   The Boxster is, it's convertible, I assume, right?

00:38:23   the Caymans, the dog convertible, right?

00:38:25   So yeah, so it's convertible, it's probably smaller

00:38:27   if I had to take a guess.

00:38:28   I would guess the Boxster's probably more expensive.

00:38:30   - It is.

00:38:31   - Why are you waffling?

00:38:32   There's an obvious answer here.

00:38:34   - Marco finished your thought,

00:38:34   then I wanna hear the obvious answer.

00:38:36   - So get the M2.

00:38:37   - That's not it, that's not the answer.

00:38:38   The correct answer is to get,

00:38:40   first of all, don't get the new generation Boxster,

00:38:42   like the one with the turbo engine.

00:38:45   Get the previous generation Boxster.

00:38:46   If it's still on sale, it's not get like a used one,

00:38:49   that's the obvious choice.

00:38:50   It's so much better than the M2

00:38:52   in every possible way, the car will make you happier.

00:38:54   'Cause if you're already shopping for M2 or Boxster,

00:38:56   you're already not looking for like,

00:38:57   oh I need something to haul the groceries to the kids.

00:38:59   Get the previous generation non-turbocharged Boxster.

00:39:04   - Well so again, having driven none of these two cars,

00:39:07   and now the third I'm about to mention,

00:39:09   why get the Boxster when you can get the Cayman?

00:39:11   Isn't the Cayman better in every way

00:39:13   and has all the same advantage as the Boxster?

00:39:15   - This person wants a convertible obviously

00:39:17   if they're shopping Boxster.

00:39:18   I mean it's convertible, the top comes,

00:39:19   it's a big difference.

00:39:20   If you're shopping for a convertible,

00:39:21   You're not confused about whether you know you want to convert you want a convertible nobody wants a convertible people like them. No no

00:39:27   It's no convertible

00:39:29   It's it's one of those decisions that you should you should sway people away from like no you trust me

00:39:33   You don't want a convertible. No there this well this person wants one, and I think it's fine

00:39:37   And the box the box are just a more special car yes

00:39:39   It is more expensive the m2 is a good car if you were shopping like m2 versus m3

00:39:43   Then we could have a real discussion, but if it's m2 versus boxer no contest boxer previous gen

00:39:48   I know you want to wear socks with sandals, but trust me, you don't want to wear socks with sandals.

00:39:53   You don't want a convertible. Convertibles are not socks with sandals. Convertibles are fun experiences.

00:39:58   We're not talking about like Jaguar convertibles from the 80s that are gonna leak water all over you and short out.

00:40:03   The modern convertibles are fine. No, they're not. They're never fine. I don't know. Convertible is a fine car in general.

00:40:09   I really do like convertibles.

00:40:11   But yeah, this particular individual, let's just say that they're always on vacation.

00:40:15   So it wouldn't make sense for this particular individual to be shopping a convertible.

00:40:20   But anyway, yeah, I was just curious. Years ago, in like, I don't know, 2005,

00:40:26   a friend of a friend had a Boxter S, and this was when they were still pretty new.

00:40:31   And I drove that Boxter S, and I got in that car thinking, "Oh, this is just an imposter 9/11.

00:40:38   I'm gonna hate this piece of garbage." And oh my god, did I love it. It was phenomenally good.

00:40:43   I was stunned. I could see how the non S Boxster would be kind of a dog and kind of boring, but

00:40:49   man, the Boxster S was nice. This was way back in '05. I haven't driven an M2. There is a friend

00:40:55   at work that has an M235i that I have yet to drive, but he promised me I could at some point,

00:41:00   and this obviously is just that, but more. But yeah, the old Boxsters anyway were super nice.

00:41:06   I'm curious to see how this new one is. We are all sponsored this week by Warby Parker,

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00:42:53   (upbeat music)

00:42:55   - Quick follow up on the neutral thing.

00:42:59   Apparently the 2016 model is the bad Boxster.

00:43:02   It's when they added 718 to the public facing name,

00:43:04   the Porsche 718 Boxster.

00:43:06   That's the 2016 model.

00:43:08   Don't get that one.

00:43:09   You want the 2015 Boxster,

00:43:12   which doesn't have a number in the name.

00:43:14   It does have a number.

00:43:15   981 is the number behind the scenes,

00:43:17   but it's just called Boxster.

00:43:18   So it's confusing, I know,

00:43:20   because car model years always are,

00:43:21   and they do look very similar,

00:43:22   but the 2016 one with the turbo four-cylinder engine

00:43:27   thumbs down.

00:43:28   - So we thought the neutral part of the show was over,

00:43:31   but turns out it's not.

00:43:32   Apple has hired somebody from QNX,

00:43:35   which is interesting.

00:43:37   So QNX is a company that makes an operating system

00:43:42   also called QNX.

00:43:44   And that operating system,

00:43:46   I understand to run a bunch of embedded systems,

00:43:49   not the least of which is,

00:43:50   is it the entertainment system in cars

00:43:53   or is it the actual like ECU in cars?

00:43:55   - I don't think it's, well, it might be the ECU,

00:43:58   but I think what it's most known for is like,

00:44:01   the reason people care about QNX at all

00:44:02   is because it's a real time operating system.

00:44:04   So you would never need a real-time operating system to run like your infotainment because those things are slow as molasses anyway

00:44:09   Oh my god, so slow. Yeah, we'll put the link in the show notes about what the Wikipedia entry on real-time operating system

00:44:14   Which describes you pretty well

00:44:15   But basically a real-time operating system is the only situation where you can make guarantees

00:44:21   About when things will happen so you can say we guarantee that

00:44:26   This thing will be serviced in a maximum of this amount of time right if it's hard real time and soft real time soft real time

00:44:33   you know tries very hard to to give you know computing time to certain things in certain intervals and hard real time is like look

00:44:40   This is a part of the system

00:44:42   You are going to be able to service this in a certain interval at minimum and use hard real-time systems for things like

00:44:48   space probes or flight control systems where you can't have like a space probe whizzing around the solar system and

00:44:56   have it go to do something that has to be done with millisecond precision and then have a

00:45:01   memory allocation happen or an interrupt happen when you didn't expect it and

00:45:04   Not have your routine serviced for an extra couple of milliseconds because there was like a little hiccup, right?

00:45:09   On our personal computers those little hiccups and glitches happen all the time

00:45:13   But in real-time operating systems, especially hard real-time operating systems, the whole design is made so that can't happen ever

00:45:19   And the reason this comes up for automotive things is there are some things in automotive systems that are like that

00:45:25   You know anti-lock brakes possibly also engine control things where you can't ever have any kind of hiccup

00:45:32   You always have to have things done on a certain timeline, but within a certain deadline with some fuzz on either side of it

00:45:38   But like there are limits that you need things to happen right now guaranteed every single time

00:45:43   No possibility that it could it could happen

00:45:45   So I think we talked about this when we were talking about like what kind of what could Apple bring to cars with software?

00:45:50   and we talked a lot about like like barcodes the

00:45:52   infotainment systems and the UI and the things that Tesla does on its big touchscreen and that's all well and good and Apple probably be

00:45:58   Good at that and you could basically run iOS on that and you'll be fine

00:46:00   but for the other parts of the car the driving parts whether they be self driving or just simply driver aids or

00:46:07   Smart cruise control or engine control and stuff like that. That stuff has to be real-time because it's a safety issue. You can't have

00:46:16   You know, you can't have any like stutter or whatever that you see in regular operating systems

00:46:20   And you know offering systems like OS X do have things where they try to give you guaranteed times like audio processing

00:46:26   But anyone who's ever used audio on a Mac knows that it's not a hard real-time operating system

00:46:31   You can get it into situations

00:46:32   So you have under flow and you have a little stutter and you know your disk isn't fast enough or whatever parts of the whole

00:46:37   chain

00:46:38   Can fall down to give you a failure and whether it be audio or video but a hard real-time system just simply can't do that

00:46:44   It has to give guaranteed time slices to all the software that's running, which means it's

00:46:49   much a very different thing for you to create. You wouldn't create a real-time operating system,

00:46:53   even for something like the watch, it would be silly. But it's very different than anything

00:46:57   Apple has ever created to my knowledge. And so that's why it's interesting to see this person

00:47:02   who I think it was like the founder of QNX or something. Some big wig in QNX. It's not like he's

00:47:07   the one writing the real-time operating system, but he was well in the beginning, but you know

00:47:11   You know what I mean?

00:47:12   Like now I'm sure Apple's not hiring them

00:47:13   to write their operating system.

00:47:14   But if you're gonna hire someone to be in charge

00:47:16   of the real-time operating system effort

00:47:19   for your car or whatever,

00:47:21   the guy who is the founder of QNX

00:47:24   is a pretty darn good hire.

00:47:26   - Yeah, and a real-time follow-up from Wikipedia

00:47:29   where everything is guaranteed to be true.

00:47:31   At the Geneva Motor Show, Apple demonstrated CarPlay,

00:47:33   which provides an iOS-like user interface

00:47:35   to head units and compatible devices.

00:47:36   Once configured by the manufacturer,

00:47:37   QNX can be programmed to hand off its display

00:47:40   certain functionality to an Apple CarPlay device. So it seems, at least for now, that

00:47:45   QNX will be used for CarPlay, but like Jon has described, maybe even more than that.

00:47:50   And BlackBerry bought QNX. Like, it's not as if QNX is only useful for real-time. Like,

00:47:54   BlackBerry bought them like, "Oh, they can be our phone OS." QNX is a flexible operating

00:47:58   system. You make do whatever you want. But if Apple's ever going to do any self-driving

00:48:02   stuff or even just like the, you know, the barrier to entry for just a basic car with

00:48:07   with simple smart cruise control and lane departure warning and stuff like that, or

00:48:11   even just anti-lock braking systems or whatever, you need a real-time operating system to do

00:48:16   that type of functionality.

00:48:19   And the question was always, is Apple going to invent one in-house?

00:48:22   Does it already have one in-house?

00:48:24   Is it going to, I mean, obviously it hired this guy who didn't buy QNX.

00:48:28   I forget who owns the assets of QNX.

00:48:30   Maybe is Blackberry still around?

00:48:31   I guess they still own it at this point.

00:48:34   this is a problem that they need solved if they're ever going to make a car, like

00:48:40   an actual complete car instead of just like some component of a car, the

00:48:43   software system for a car. So I think this is the first public signal that

00:48:50   they are serious about this aspect of the car as opposed to all the rumors

00:48:53   like well of course it's gonna be self-driving and of course it's gonna do

00:48:56   that. This hire really only makes sense in that in the context of car software

00:49:03   that does the car stuff, the safety-related car stuff.

00:49:06   - Yeah, and the gentleman's name is Dan Dodge,

00:49:08   for the record.

00:49:09   - The unfortunate name for our car.

00:49:12   - Well, he ended up in automotive, sort of,

00:49:13   so I guess that makes sense, right?

00:49:15   - I know, but Dodge is not really the brand

00:49:17   that Apple probably wants to evoke.

00:49:19   - Eh, I don't know, whatever.

00:49:21   I'm at least in part a product of a Mopar family,

00:49:23   so nobody's perfect.

00:49:25   But yeah, it's really interesting.

00:49:27   Like you said, Jon, I think what's most interesting

00:49:28   about this to me is that it's a public signal

00:49:31   that Apple is moving towards automotive.

00:49:33   I mean, sure, you could interpret this in many other ways.

00:49:36   Sure, QNX does seem to underpin BlackBerry 10,

00:49:40   or the newest BlackBerry operating system, I think.

00:49:43   But anyway, the point is,

00:49:45   all signs point to this being an automotive-related hire,

00:49:48   and a high-profile one.

00:49:50   So, I don't know whether there's smoke, there's fire,

00:49:53   and there's ever-increasing amounts of smoke.

00:49:55   - It seems like Apple is kind of like

00:49:57   decreasingly coy about their car plans.

00:50:01   They're just not even denying them anymore.

00:50:03   And they're just like, yeah, okay,

00:50:05   you guys all know we're making a car, right?

00:50:07   - And something they could do,

00:50:08   which is definitely an Apple move,

00:50:09   is for the first car that comes out in 2020 or whatever,

00:50:12   like if they're just starting

00:50:13   their real-time operating system ever now,

00:50:15   it's not gonna be ready in time for that, right?

00:50:17   So what they can do is release a car

00:50:19   that's not self-driving,

00:50:21   that merely uses third-party components

00:50:24   for its engine control and its anti-lock brakes

00:50:26   and it's airbags and it's smart cruise control.

00:50:29   These are all things that you can buy, you know,

00:50:30   from various manufacturers off the shelf.

00:50:33   Then Apple does the carplay part of the car, right?

00:50:35   And the UI and all the things that are not real time

00:50:37   that are just, you know, UI type things.

00:50:40   And that's still a perfectly good Apple car.

00:50:43   And in the meantime, over the next three or four

00:50:45   or five years, they work on their self-driving thing

00:50:48   with their own real-time operating system.

00:50:49   It's kind of like the iPod approach of where, you know,

00:50:51   they have that PixOS thing or whatever that they,

00:50:54   from a third party that they licensed

00:50:55   and using their iPods.

00:50:56   But when it came time to do the iPhone,

00:50:58   they didn't port that over.

00:50:59   Although that was one of the competing options internally.

00:51:01   They did their own thing.

00:51:03   It takes a long time to do your own thing.

00:51:04   I'm not sure, depending on what stage they're at now,

00:51:07   if that is coming on board to shepherd

00:51:10   their multi-year running real-time operating system effort

00:51:14   to just make sure like it's on track and to get it going,

00:51:16   then maybe they can hit 2020.

00:51:19   But if they're just starting their effort now

00:51:20   and staffing up, I don't think they're gonna be ready

00:51:22   in time for a car in 2020.

00:51:23   And I don't think they need to be

00:51:24   because nobody has produced a completely self-driving car

00:51:27   at this point they can drive in any roads.

00:51:29   And I don't think Apple's going to in 2020 either.

00:51:31   So it might be smart to put out a car that is impressive

00:51:35   and good in all the ways that Apple's cars can be good,

00:51:38   but that Apple outsources all the parts

00:51:39   that it's not innovating in essentially.

00:51:42   Like they don't have any particular innovation

00:51:44   to add to anti-lock braking or adaptive cruise control

00:51:47   or engine control.

00:51:48   And so there's no reason for them to put their own offerings.

00:51:50   In fact, it's a huge risk to do that.

00:51:51   Just, they're third-party vendors who make parts for the rest of the car industry that

00:51:56   you can buy those things from, both software and hardware, and they should just do that

00:51:59   and put all their effort into the design of the car and the UI and the parts that they're

00:52:03   good at.

00:52:04   All right, so I guess we're out of the neutral portion of the show, which means I only have

00:52:07   one thing left to talk about, and then we might have to go through the stupid TiVo section.

00:52:11   I offer—I can explain the MP3 file format to you if you want and why podcasts apparently

00:52:16   aren't and maybe can't be VBR.

00:52:17   Oh yeah, where did that go?

00:52:19   was in the show notes and it disappeared.

00:52:21   John demoted it right before the show.

00:52:23   I almost demoted the Swift thing too, I don't think there's much to say, but you put it

00:52:27   there Casey, so what do you have to say about the Swift update?

00:52:29   It's gonna be quick to be honest.

00:52:31   Mostly I just wanted to hear your reaction to the line about the goal being to be better

00:52:37   at regular expressions than Perl.

00:52:39   You don't even remember it.

00:52:42   I'm on the Swift evolution mailing list.

00:52:43   I read all these things.

00:52:45   I'm soaking in it.

00:52:47   There's nothing you can tell me about Swift that is going to be a surprise.

00:52:50   That's a reference to an ad that was on before you were both born.

00:52:53   Delightful.

00:52:54   Anyway, so tell me, Jon, what you think about this claim that Swift will be better than

00:52:59   string processing than Perl.

00:53:01   It's not a claim, it's a goal.

00:53:02   And a goal is not a promise, if you know if you read the thing.

00:53:05   I did read it, I did read it.

00:53:07   I'm just trying to get a rise out of you.

00:53:09   Anyway, tell me about it.

00:53:10   Yeah, no, but it's fine.

00:53:12   So like, Swift 3, it had a lot of lofty goals.

00:53:15   Some of them they missed, particularly ABI stability,

00:53:17   they didn't get, not API, ABI, application binary interface,

00:53:21   which basically means can Apple build a library in Swift

00:53:26   and ship it with their operating system,

00:53:27   and then people ship applications

00:53:29   that link to that binary,

00:53:31   and then can they update that binary

00:53:32   in the next version of the operating system

00:53:33   and not break people's applications,

00:53:35   because the applications are linking into the library

00:53:38   and expecting things to be in certain places

00:53:40   and find certain symbols.

00:53:41   How do you update that?

00:53:42   You need ABI stability.

00:53:43   you change the calling convention for your libraries

00:53:46   and you release a new version of that library,

00:53:48   it will break everybody's applications

00:53:50   'cause their binaries expect to call into it

00:53:52   in a different way.

00:53:52   So Swift is still at the point

00:53:53   where they haven't nailed that down.

00:53:55   And they wanted to do that for Swift 3,

00:53:57   but they didn't make it.

00:53:58   A lot of the things they did do in Swift 3 are the reason,

00:54:01   because they're still trying to nail down generics

00:54:03   and some other features that affect ABI

00:54:06   and also this resiliency stuff where it's like,

00:54:08   if we change aspects of the language,

00:54:11   Again, can we make a new version of the library

00:54:13   and have the old applications still work with it?

00:54:15   This is important for,

00:54:17   it's mostly important for an OS vendor

00:54:18   because that's what Apple does.

00:54:19   They ship libraries like UIKit and many other,

00:54:21   you know, that's an umbrella framework, but whatever.

00:54:24   Huge libraries that applications link against,

00:54:26   individual application developers for the most part,

00:54:28   unless they have like a suite of applications

00:54:30   and they have their own frameworks

00:54:31   that they share between them,

00:54:32   you can always as an application vendor

00:54:34   just statically link your whole thing,

00:54:35   but you're going to dynamically link to the OS libraries.

00:54:37   But up until this point,

00:54:39   everyone shipping a Swift app was sort of shifting,

00:54:42   shipping with the entire Swift standard library

00:54:46   as part of their application,

00:54:47   because it was the only safe way to do that.

00:54:48   And that's sort of untenable even for applications

00:54:51   to be shipped that way.

00:54:52   So Apple's gonna fix that problem in Swift 4.

00:54:55   That is now their goal for Swift 4.

00:54:56   They still have some issues to work out,

00:54:59   leftover stuff from Swift 3 to make that possible.

00:55:02   And they're trying to do Swift 4 in two phases.

00:55:04   One is like the important stuff.

00:55:05   And then it's like the frills.

00:55:08   Interestingly, in the important stuff section,

00:55:10   the stage one of Swift 4,

00:55:11   was the thing that Casey was talking about,

00:55:13   is that they're gonna take another crack at their strings.

00:55:15   They've changed their strings a couple of times already,

00:55:17   and they're gonna fill with them again.

00:55:19   And their goal is to be as good at string handling

00:55:21   as Perl is, which is actually a fairly lofty goal,

00:55:24   because Perl, for all its historic weirdness,

00:55:27   is actually really fast at dealing with strings,

00:55:30   and can do things that most other languages can't do

00:55:33   in terms of Unicode, and all sorts of cool stuff like that.

00:55:36   - All right, so hold on.

00:55:37   I was going to ask you about this. Now I am not trying to needle you. I'm honestly asking,

00:55:42   what makes Perl so good at string processing? I know that like regular expressions are, I guess,

00:55:47   like a first-class citizen or something, but I've written very little Perl in my life, and it was a

00:55:51   long time ago. So can you give like an executive summary of what makes Perl so darn good at this?

00:55:55   Because it seems universally accepted that it is. So why?

00:55:59   Well, there's two aspects. One is string representation, which is weird in Perl for

00:56:04   for historical reasons and is actually very complicated. But for example, in a language

00:56:09   like Objective-C that doesn't sort of have native strings, like you've got, you know,

00:56:14   character pointers, which are no good for you because we live in the modern world, and

00:56:18   then you've got NSString. And NSString is like UTF-16 under the covers. And there's

00:56:23   all sorts of methods to get what you want, but it's not a particularly efficient format.

00:56:26   If you had to pick, like, you would never pick UTF-16 as an internal representation

00:56:30   format because it's just not, it's not the way to do things in the modern world. It's

00:56:34   than you want it to be. It's still not fixed size because you have things that take, you know,

00:56:38   it's not every one of the, you know, you have characters that take multiple

00:56:41   sets of bytes. And, you know, it's not, it's not uniform, like an array, like it has all

00:56:48   the disadvantages, none of the advantages. Perl's representation used to just be bag of bytes,

00:56:54   and they were smart enough to switch to UTF-8 internally. Perl can do everything every other

00:56:59   language can in terms of it has libraries that you could encode and decode however you want.

00:57:03   The way you want to write things in Perl is when you pull data into Perl from whatever,

00:57:09   from the disk, from the network or whatever, that's string data. You have to know the encoding,

00:57:13   obviously, because otherwise how do you know how to deal with it? And you want to sort of decode

00:57:17   it into Perl's internal representation, then all through your Perl program you want to deal with,

00:57:23   I don't know what you want to call them, like Perl strings, where they are just strings that Perl

00:57:29   understands that you don't have to deal with the encoding. And all of Perl's functions in terms of

00:57:33   regular expressions and substring matching and all sorts of other stuff, deal with them as logical

00:57:39   sets of characters or I don't want to call them characters, but anyway as Unicode code points,

00:57:42   right? And when you output them, whether it be a disk file or a terminal or over the network,

00:57:49   whatever, at that point, you decide how you want to encode it for transmission. You turn it back

00:57:53   into a byte sequence, whether it be UTF-8, 16, so on and so forth. And because the modern world

00:57:58   basically uses UTF-8 everywhere, and Perl, secret secret, unbeknownst to you, uses UTF-8

00:58:04   internally as its internal representation, you can go through that whole cycle without

00:58:08   ever having to encode and decode, which is not the case for NSString, which isn't a

00:58:12   native feature of Objective-C, and every time you come from UTF-8 into NSString and from

00:58:16   NSString back to UTF-8, it's an expensive process.

00:58:20   So that's just like at the most fundamental level.

00:58:22   Why is it convenient to deal with stuff in Perl?

00:58:24   Because they picked a good internal representation format because they have a system that says

00:58:27   we decode on the way in, our entire working with the string in the program,

00:58:32   you don't have to worry about the representation, but trust us it'll be

00:58:34   efficient. And on output you encode to whatever you want it to be, and that's a

00:58:38   no op if it's UTF-8 through the whole way. And then after that it's like okay

00:58:41   well then your representation is good, your algorithms are efficient in terms

00:58:45   of pre-allocating buffers for strings when you start appending and it realizes

00:58:49   you're gonna keep appending, so pre-allocate it, you know, like all sorts of

00:58:51   smart things like that. Perl's regular expression engine is, you know, the gold

00:58:56   standard of regular expression engines in terms of the number of years that have been

00:59:00   put into both the syntax and the engine itself with all sorts of crazy efficiencies where

00:59:04   you can look at your regular expression and figure out, "You know what? I can see that

00:59:08   there's a faster way to do this than using just a regular expression engine. I can do

00:59:13   something simpler because I can shortcut this by looking at the anchor and optimizing it

00:59:18   to an index lookup or use a DFA when it's faster than an NFA, a regular expression engine

00:59:22   because I can look at the regular expression.

00:59:24   It's very clever optimizations

00:59:27   to a regular expression engine

00:59:28   in addition to all of the features.

00:59:30   I think what they're talking about for the Swift stuff is

00:59:32   they just want their strings

00:59:34   to be as powerful as Perl strings.

00:59:35   It's convenient to deal with,

00:59:37   to have all the nice convenient methods for doing things,

00:59:38   and that when you use those methods, things are fast.

00:59:42   Because you can get in trouble really fast with strings

00:59:43   if you have to keep changing representation internally,

00:59:46   or if your internal representation is weird,

00:59:48   and anytime you have to do any operation,

00:59:49   you have to walk the whole string

00:59:50   to find boundaries between things or whatever.

00:59:53   There's lots of chances for inefficiencies.

00:59:56   There even is just like you have a string

00:59:57   and you're repeatedly appending

00:59:58   and making a bigger and bigger string.

01:00:00   That can be massively inefficient too

01:00:01   if you're not careful about how you allocate memory.

01:00:04   So Perl, for all of its weirdness,

01:00:06   and there is weirdness related to this

01:00:07   that I didn't wanna go into,

01:00:09   is very fast and has like all the features

01:00:13   you could possibly imagine, some of which may be obscure,

01:00:15   but that's what Swift is going for.

01:00:16   They wanna be faster than NSString, which they didn't list,

01:00:19   they're not going to throw their own stuff under the bus that much, but faster and better than NSString,

01:00:23   native to the language, and really efficient internally with lots of operations. And then

01:00:29   regular expressions were in the phase two, where it's like, that's a nice dab. We just need to get

01:00:32   the string representation and the basic features down, and then we can add regular expressions at

01:00:36   any point after that. And that's a whole other project of like, how do we make a really fast

01:00:40   regular expression engine? But that's in the phase two box. The phase two is the goodies,

01:00:44   in the phase one is like, eat your vegetables

01:00:47   and get our house in order, get our ABI stability down,

01:00:50   figure out what generic is gonna be.

01:00:51   And by the way, async stuff,

01:00:53   that's even farther in the history.

01:00:55   It's not even gonna be in Swift 4 probably.

01:00:57   - No, like I saw async await

01:00:59   and I actually didn't get to use that too much

01:01:01   in my C# days, but I know enough to know

01:01:03   that that's super awesome.

01:01:04   But you know what I did use a lot in my C# days

01:01:06   and I'm really excited about?

01:01:08   Reflection, I'm super stoked about that.

01:01:11   - Was that in stage one?

01:01:11   I forget, was reflection in stage one?

01:01:13   Stage two. So reflection is basically, it allows you to, it allows your code to look at itself,

01:01:20   hence reflection, and make decisions about things. And I think I like it so much because it's my

01:01:27   favorite hammer and so everything looks like a nail to me. And there's certainly appropriate

01:01:31   times and ways to use reflection and inappropriate times and ways to use reflection. But there are

01:01:36   some times, and I can't think of a contrived example right off the top of my head, but there

01:01:39   But there are some times when reflection is a very powerful way to solve a problem.

01:01:44   And I think a lot of the kvetching that was going on in the past about how Swift is not

01:01:49   dynamic enough for some of the developers, generally speaking the old Objective-C guard,

01:01:56   a lot of that would potentially, a lot of that complaining would potentially go away

01:02:01   with more robust reflection.

01:02:03   Because there is some support in Swift, but it's really, really crappy.

01:02:06   Swift today, but it's really crappy.

01:02:08   I don't know, I'm excited about what's coming.

01:02:11   I think everything in this post by Chris Latner, which we'll link in the show notes, all of

01:02:17   it is worth reading.

01:02:18   I don't think there's any really wasted words, and I'm really curious to see where this goes.

01:02:22   It seems like they're learning from their mistakes, they're learning from over-promising

01:02:25   and under-delivering.

01:02:27   Or maybe it seems from their perspective they didn't necessarily promise ABI stability in

01:02:32   but they didn't do a good job of stating what their intention was, whether or not you agree with that, whatever.

01:02:39   But the point is they're trying to be a lot better about that in the future.

01:02:42   ABI stability was a goal of Swift 3, but as they got into Swift 3, I think they realized a couple things.

01:02:47   One, the appetite for syntax changes in Swift seems to be waning.

01:02:54   Like, as in people are kind of like, "I just learned Swift 2, or Swift 2.1, or Swift 2.1, and then we're going to change it again in Swift 3."

01:03:00   Swift 3. And so there was kind of eventually a rush to say, "Look, this is probably our last

01:03:06   big chance to change syntax stuff." So everybody let's like, if there's any other syntax crap in

01:03:12   the language, "Oh, we're using equals here," or "We should have used a colons," or "Casing of things

01:03:16   is inconsistent between this and that," and picking new keywords, like, now is the time to do it. I

01:03:20   spent a lot of time in Swift 3 doing syntax breaking changes, non-backward compatible

01:03:26   changes to the language itself, to the characters that you type to make your programs.

01:03:30   because they're trying to really say,

01:03:32   "We've got a little trailing end of syntax changes,"

01:03:36   and then we're shutting the door on that,

01:03:37   and we're saying not that we're never going to have them again,

01:03:40   but they're going to have to be really justified.

01:03:43   There has to be a really strong reason to do them.

01:03:45   We're going to try to maintain source compatibility from here on.

01:03:48   So there's a big rush to get those things in.

01:03:50   And then the second part is, when dealing with the ABI stuff,

01:03:54   they still hadn't sorted out all of their generic system

01:03:56   and other things that affect the ABI

01:03:59   because they have to figure out what kind of things are we going to be calling in what ways

01:04:03   and everything before they can nail down the ABI. And if they hadn't sorted out that part of the

01:04:08   language, it's impossible to do the ABI. So it was kind of like they weren't ready to do the ABI yet

01:04:13   because they had other things that they had to do first. Not like they went off into the weeds and

01:04:17   were dancing through the daisies and doing other frivolous things, right? They realized that

01:04:21   actually we're not at the point yet where we can do ABI stability. We haven't figured out all these

01:04:26   these things that are prerequisites for it.

01:04:28   So they spent all their time trying to sort of get all that

01:04:31   painful stuff out of the way and do all that.

01:04:33   And they're still doing that and do all the prerequisites.

01:04:35   And then hopefully in the Swift 4 stage one timeframe,

01:04:38   they will have all that.

01:04:39   I'm not sure, you know, again,

01:04:41   they were trying to be careful and say,

01:04:41   this is a goal or whatever, not a promise.

01:04:44   It's still not a promise for the Swift stage one thing,

01:04:46   who knows how this will turn out because you can't,

01:04:48   like the worst mistake they can make is to rush the ABI

01:04:51   stability and be stuck with a dumb calling convention that

01:04:54   prevents them from adding features later.

01:04:55   This is like the most important time to not rush

01:04:59   to nail things down and set it in concrete.

01:05:01   Because once you do that and Apple starts shipping frameworks

01:05:04   that people link their apps against, that's it.

01:05:06   You can't renege on that.

01:05:07   You can't like, oh, we're breaking all your apps

01:05:09   in this next release, recompile everything, right?

01:05:11   I mean, they really, really don't wanna do that.

01:05:13   It kind of like, you know, for an OS vendor,

01:05:15   for a platform vendor, API promises are something

01:05:19   you really don't wanna break.

01:05:20   Or if you do break them, you wanna do a Carbon 64

01:05:23   and break it before you actually ship to customers.

01:05:24   And they're still pissed off about that

01:05:25   because they all developed their applications against it

01:05:28   and plan their products and so on and so forth.

01:05:29   But it's even worse if you ship it to customers

01:05:31   and then a year later say, "Oh, you know what?

01:05:33   "All your ops don't work anymore

01:05:34   "when people update their operating system.

01:05:36   "Sorry about that."

01:05:37   So this is really a critical time in Swift

01:05:41   and it's much, much better for them to continue to miss dates

01:05:44   and to make sure they have it solid

01:05:45   because once you set this in stone

01:05:47   and start shipping it in frameworks,

01:05:49   that's it for many, many, many years.

01:05:51   - Yeah, it makes sense.

01:05:54   Marco, I know you have a lot to add on this.

01:05:56   What would you like to add about this whole Swift thing?

01:05:59   (upbeat music)

01:06:00   (laughing)

01:06:01   - Our final sponsor tonight is Eero.

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01:07:23   this works pretty well for you, right?

01:07:25   - Yep, yep, I have a set that they sent me of three

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01:07:32   on the sponsor read, then I'll go back

01:07:33   to my actually relatively old AirPort Extreme."

01:07:36   And I'm looking at one of my three Eros right now

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01:08:45   (upbeat music)

01:08:48   - It's time whether you end the show or not,

01:08:51   because if you try to end the show now,

01:08:52   it's just gonna be in the after show,

01:08:54   but that's still part of the show.

01:08:55   But it's time. - So the thing of it is,

01:08:56   I swear to God this is true.

01:08:58   I opened an iMessage window and started writing to Marco,

01:09:02   you should just end the show after the Swift update.

01:09:04   - I know, I know you're playing.

01:09:05   It doesn't matter if you do it.

01:09:06   You go ahead, end the show.

01:09:07   We're just gonna do it in the after show.

01:09:09   - I didn't send it.

01:09:10   I was going to have, you know,

01:09:12   I was gonna tell him just end the show and then we'll do it in the after show, but it'll

01:09:16   be a funny moment.

01:09:18   But then as I was typing that iMessage, I swear to God this is true, I was typing the

01:09:21   iMessage, it occurred to me we had one more sponsor to do, and then I resigned myself

01:09:26   to my fate.

01:09:27   Jon, tell us everything that I'm so excited to know about TiVo.

01:09:30   Wait, you don't want to hear about MP3 file formats?

01:09:33   I would love to, but somebody had to move it down.

01:09:36   No, that doesn't deserve the place that it got.

01:09:39   That's bound by how we handle email now.

01:09:41   TiVo! TiVo was purchased by Rovi a long, long time ago. So long, in April? Maybe? A long

01:09:48   time ago.

01:09:51   I tried so hard, you guys.

01:09:52   Let's go over the list of things that have happened since then.

01:09:54   Yeah. Rovi is, used to be Gemstar, if anyone remembers them. They make like on-screen TV

01:10:01   guides, like that big grid where you pick different channels. And Macrovision, do either

01:10:04   you two actually remember Macrovision, like when it was a thing? I do.

01:10:07   No.

01:10:08   It was like copy protection for VHS tapes, like analog copy protection, so that if you

01:10:12   bought a VHS that had a movie on it and you tried to make a copy of it and didn't have

01:10:16   the right equipment, the copy would have all these little fuzzy things on it.

01:10:19   It wouldn't look good.

01:10:20   It was very silly.

01:10:21   Yeah, it had this weird alternating bright and dark line that was in the overscan range

01:10:26   of the TV picture so that it wouldn't show up on a TV, but the idea was to throw off

01:10:31   the automatic gain control of the VCR because it would oscillate from bright to dark and

01:10:35   show weird things in this one line.

01:10:37   So it would be like, alright, well the maximum brightness of the signal is really high right

01:10:41   now so turn the automatic gain control down and then like, then it would go back low and

01:10:45   then alright, now turn the automatic gain control up.

01:10:47   And so if you made a copy of a movie with this with the VCR, and you know most VCRs

01:10:51   would try to automatically balance the brightness of the picture, the movie would just oscillate

01:10:56   every few seconds from light to dark and light to dark as it was adjusting for this line

01:11:00   that was actually off screen.

01:11:01   Yeah, the copy protection has always been crappy.

01:11:04   But anyway, this is the company that bought TiVo.

01:11:06   It's kind of similar to how the M3 file format works, actually.

01:11:09   Yeah, tell me more.

01:11:10   No, we're not talking about that now.

01:11:12   So the company Rovi is a combination

01:11:15   of Gemstar and Macrovision.

01:11:16   So this is not a company that really makes products

01:11:20   that people love, like who love Macrovision.

01:11:22   I guess content owners did.

01:11:24   I mean, throw in Rambus.

01:11:25   And you have Rambus on LODSYS, and then you have really

01:11:28   a favorite team here.

01:11:30   But Rambus made, in theory, their patents

01:11:34   were used in products that people liked.

01:11:36   But yeah, until they were convicted for fraud because of patent dealings.

01:11:40   Did anyone like the, you know, the Gemstar on-screen TV guides?

01:11:44   Like the Gemstar stuff is enterprise software.

01:11:46   It was sold to people who make cable boxes.

01:11:48   And MacriVision was licensed to people who, you know, content owners for making their

01:11:53   things.

01:11:54   So this is the company that bought TiVo.

01:11:55   Just give a very, very brief TiVo recap for people who don't know what TiVo is because

01:11:59   it's an increasingly large number of people.

01:12:02   TiVo was one of the original and probably the best known makers of DVRs, digital video

01:12:07   recorders, which is like VCR, but instead of recording television onto a bunch of tapes,

01:12:11   it records a video onto your hard drive.

01:12:14   In the beginning they would take analog video in and record it onto a hard drive, and eventually

01:12:18   they worked with cable cards and digital stuff or whatever.

01:12:22   And not a lot of people bought TiVos in the grand scheme of things.

01:12:24   People who bought them early on, early adopters, it changed their lives.

01:12:28   It changed our lives.

01:12:29   We got one around the same time we had kids,

01:12:31   when we couldn't like schedule your lives around like,

01:12:34   "Oh, a television show is gonna be on at eight.

01:12:36   I better be at the TV at eight."

01:12:37   Like that's impossible with children.

01:12:38   So along with getting a digital camera,

01:12:41   getting a TiVo around the same time we had kids

01:12:42   was a really smart move,

01:12:43   because now we no longer had to be

01:12:45   on the schedule of televisions.

01:12:46   And it really totally changed your life

01:12:50   in terms of how you deal with television.

01:12:52   Everyone has a TiVo, especially if you bought it early on.

01:12:54   Like the fact that you could pause live television,

01:12:55   that you recorded anything you want,

01:12:56   that you could choose the shows you wanted to record

01:12:59   By picking the shows instead of programming your VCR to say, "Record channel 4 at 8pm

01:13:03   and stop recording at 9pm."

01:13:06   You wouldn't have to do that, it just had a built-in guide that showed up in the show.

01:13:09   So you could do a season pass for a show to say, "I want to watch The X-Files whenever

01:13:13   The X-Files is on is recorded.

01:13:14   Only record the new episodes, don't record the repeats."

01:13:17   All sorts of good stuff like that.

01:13:19   It just became the way we watch television.

01:13:20   You never actually watch live television anymore.

01:13:22   And of course, the most important feature is the skip button where you could skip 30

01:13:27   at a time so you wouldn't have to see any commercials because your Tivo would record

01:13:31   the commercials but you would skip over them when you watch because who wants to watch that.

01:13:34   The current version of Tivo has a series, I'm assuming a series of humans, figuring out where

01:13:39   all the commercial break boundaries are in shows so now when you're watching Tivo when the

01:13:44   commercials start you can hit one button it just jumps past all the commercials in a single button

01:13:47   press. You may ask yourself "hey why do I have to even push the button? Why doesn't the Tivo just

01:13:51   excise the commercials for me?" Well Replay TV did something like that, a competitor to Tivo and

01:13:56   and they got sued out of existence so TiVo was kind of dancing around that. But anyway, I love TiVos. I keep buying them

01:14:02   I always buy the most expensive biggest best TiVo I possibly can and when a new one comes out

01:14:06   I buy that one and keep replacing them

01:14:08   They're fairly expensive

01:14:10   There's either a monthly fee or you pay a huge amount of money for like a lifetime service

01:14:14   And I usually just do that because you know we use the TiVos and they just rotate around the house

01:14:18   I'm a big proponent of TiVo for many many years

01:14:22   I've complained that their software and hardware has been terrible for the amount of money you pay

01:14:26   It should be incredibly fast and responsive and it hasn't been they've improved that in recent years

01:14:30   But apparently not enough to make people buy their products

01:14:32   So, um if you listen to I don't know hypercritical of me complaining about TiVo or many podcasts

01:14:38   I've complained about it. It's same way we complain about a cap Apple. It's like it's product. Well for me anyway, it's a product

01:14:43   I love that I think is the best in the industry, but that it could be better in obvious ways

01:14:49   And I've always complained that the company seems not to know how to be successful and doesn't understand what it's got like

01:14:55   Many times I was asking to charge me more money for a higher-end product that had higher margins

01:15:00   Like I was ready and willing to pay but apparently they were going down market to try to grow their

01:15:04   Their user base. Anyway, everything I did didn't work. They were never able to really make any money

01:15:10   Their streaming services came and started to eat their lunch

01:15:13   and I was sad about that because I think you know until

01:15:18   Cable companies release their death grip on all the content that we all love which is happening slowly like a lot of

01:15:23   Increasing number of the shows that I watch are not on quote unquote TV like stranger things that I just watched is on Netflix

01:15:29   And not anywhere else orange is the new black house of cards

01:15:33   What was that?

01:15:35   Man, the high castles on Amazon there is lots of original content coming there, but there's still a lot of stuff

01:15:40   That's only on television

01:15:41   Oh HBO now Marco can get the HBO thing that he can never remember the name of but it's now

01:15:45   The one that doesn't require you to have the the cable subscription, right?

01:15:49   so things are happening to eventually take us out of the death grip of cable companies, but

01:15:54   For many many years and still today in many

01:15:58   Depending on what shows you're interested in the only place to get this content is on television

01:16:02   The only place to get it in real time in high quality

01:16:05   Without having to wait, you know is on television and the only civilized way to watch television

01:16:11   vision in my opinion is to use a TiVo not to use the DVR that comes from your cable

01:16:16   company which are universally very bad but TiVo has been bought by this company

01:16:20   and the question was well what is Rovi gonna do with them? Rovi mostly licenses

01:16:23   intellectual property and does their on-screen guide stuff it doesn't look

01:16:27   promising Rovi has a lot of patents TiVo has a lot of patents related to DVR stuff

01:16:32   so everyone's worried like oh you know they just bought TiVo for the patents

01:16:35   there were a couple of good signs when they bought them by the way they bought

01:16:37   them for 1.1 billion dollars which is not you know it's not bad that's like an

01:16:40   Instagram in a bit, right? For a company that everyone thought like TiVo, are they

01:16:44   still in business? It's pretty good because they have a lot of important

01:16:48   patents. They're also taking the name of TiVo, which I thought was a good sign.

01:16:52   Like, Rovi didn't buy them and say the TiVo name is no more, now it's just Rovi

01:16:55   and we will just stop selling, TiVo will stop selling hardware to customers and

01:17:00   we will just stop everything about the company and just like license the

01:17:04   patents and become like a patent troll or whatever. But the fact that they're

01:17:08   taking the name TiVo over the new company, I thought was a good sign, at least in their

01:17:13   initial announcement. Then they started saying, "Well, we don't really feel like we might,

01:17:18   we have to make these plastic boxes with hard drives in them and give them to customers,

01:17:21   because that seems like a loser business to us." So we're looking into other options and

01:17:26   people are panicking like, "Oh no, like, when my TiVo dies, will I not be able to buy another

01:17:32   box that does the same thing?" This is my big fear, because we're a TiVo household,

01:17:36   and we keep buying them. And if I ever catch wind of that happening, kind of like with the plasmas,

01:17:40   when I knew Panasonic was stopping making plasmas, I'm going to buy like three of these things and

01:17:44   just hope they continue to work until they all break. Aren't they dependent on a service run

01:17:50   by TiVo? Yeah, kind of. I mean, I feel like that's a surmountable problem where I don't know what

01:17:58   their commitments are legally to people who bought their products to keep that service up and running

01:18:04   for a certain period of time, but even if they stop selling the plastic boxes, I'm assuming

01:18:08   they'll keep running the service, because the service, like if you don't pay for a lifetime,

01:18:12   you're paying the monthly fee for the service, and it's got to be hugely profitable to just run the

01:18:16   service, because it's not, you know, whatever the fee is, it's pretty expensive, and it's not costing

01:18:20   them that much per user to keep the service up and running, so I'm assuming they'll keep the service

01:18:24   running for a while. But that is very optimistic. Well, so here's the angle, like the statements,

01:18:30   the most recent statement I've seen from them is basically the new owners of the company

01:18:36   hinting at the idea that they don't want to make the boxes, but they will gladly let somebody else

01:18:41   make a box and TiVo branded, which they've done before. They did the Direct TiVo, which was the

01:18:47   TiVo branded for DirecTV. If you sign up for DirecTV, you would get essentially a TiVo box

01:18:52   integrated with a DirecTV thing in a single unit. So that, you know, from your cable company or your

01:18:57   or your television provider,

01:18:58   instead of doing the crappy set-top box that they have now,

01:19:01   they would let them use TiVo software and TiVo services

01:19:04   to give you a TiVo-powered, TiVo-branded box

01:19:08   that is not sold to you by TiVo.

01:19:09   So they're kind of like ARM,

01:19:10   where they would just license to them

01:19:12   the intellectual property, the software and the hardware,

01:19:14   and maybe they would still run the service or whatever.

01:19:17   But that would give you a larger variety

01:19:19   of potential TiVo boxes, all tied to the cable companies,

01:19:22   which, if I had to pick,

01:19:24   I'd rather them continue to make their own hardware

01:19:26   and just be better at it.

01:19:27   Like that's choice number one.

01:19:29   Second choice of having a bunch of cable companies

01:19:33   make TiVo branded boxes.

01:19:36   That's not terrible I suppose.

01:19:38   The worst is no more TiVo boxes at all.

01:19:40   And I have to use the current, you know, cable company DVRs.

01:19:43   That's my nightmare scenario.

01:19:45   So keeps you up at night.

01:19:47   It does because like,

01:19:49   this is literally how we watch television in the house.

01:19:51   If it's not on Netflix or Amazon video, it's TiVo.

01:19:53   That's how, or Apple TV, you know,

01:19:55   or Apple TV users or Client Box or Netflix or whatever.

01:19:58   That's how we watch television in the house.

01:20:00   And I'm just waiting my finger on the trigger

01:20:04   to spend like one or two grand on a bunch

01:20:06   of the highest end TiVo's before they stop making them.

01:20:08   And if I catch wind of that, I'm going to.

01:20:11   - I love like your nightmare scenario.

01:20:13   Like it's, like one of the reasons why I criticize Apple,

01:20:16   you know we had to throw this into the show somewhere.

01:20:18   One of the reasons why I criticize Apple

01:20:21   is that I love using the Mac so much

01:20:24   And I worry, if the Mac ever became something

01:20:27   that I couldn't or didn't want to use anymore for my work,

01:20:31   I'd have to switch back to Windows.

01:20:33   And the thought of that, I mean, I don't say,

01:20:35   I might even try Linux instead,

01:20:37   the thought of going back to Windows is so,

01:20:40   like, turns my stomach, that's how little I want to do that.

01:20:44   You seem to be having that kind of reaction

01:20:46   with the thought of going from a TiVo

01:20:48   to the cable company's DVR.

01:20:50   - You just, you can't go back.

01:20:52   Like, just ask anybody who has a TiVo.

01:20:53   Like they'll have complaints about it.

01:20:54   It's not the greatest product in the world,

01:20:55   but you can't go back to watching regular,

01:20:58   like live television is barbaric.

01:21:00   Like, first of all, you see commercials,

01:21:01   which is you can't go back to that

01:21:03   if you're just never ever seeing commercials.

01:21:05   And second of all,

01:21:06   like just losing the ability to pause live television

01:21:10   or to skip around and let a buffer queue up.

01:21:12   Like you just can't, there's no replacement for that

01:21:15   because it was, oh, why don't you just do screaming?

01:21:16   Well, you know what it's like

01:21:17   when Game of Thrones comes on,

01:21:19   like there's no commercials in that to skip,

01:21:20   but like I can watch it every time.

01:21:22   Whereas when their servers go down because everyone's trying to watch the episode at the same time, I don't have to deal with that

01:21:26   I'm above the fray on that like it is the TiVo for all of its faults and all that slow software

01:21:32   passes the bar of being like as

01:21:35   Reliable for the most part as TV is supposed to be when we were growing up you turn on the television

01:21:41   And there's a picture there, right?

01:21:42   Especially if you had cable unless the cable is out in which case you see nothing, right?

01:21:46   But if the cable is not out you turn it on and the picture is there and you change the channel and you can see

01:21:51   what's on that channel and never is buffering and never can't find the servers and never ask for your iCloud password and it never does

01:21:58   Anything like it's just there like it is it passes that level of reliability does way way more and is only ever slow slightly less

01:22:05   Reliable I can't remember the last time I had any kind of crash or problem at all with my Tivo

01:22:10   It just sits there like an appliance on all the time 24 hours a day never have to do anything to it and it just runs

01:22:17   And it's an incredibly high bar that I've been using them since the the series 2 which is not the original one

01:22:23   But it was still back in the analog days and every TiVo box

01:22:25   I've had I've been frustrated that it's not faster and doesn't have better hardware in it and I can't get it with a faster CPU

01:22:31   And more RAM and a bigger hard drive, but other than that the alternative was just unthinkable to me

01:22:36   So eventually like when all the streaming services get better and all the content I care about is no longer on quote-unquote real TV

01:22:42   But it's all on streaming

01:22:44   Then I'll be able to leave TiVo behind but until then I want something like that and back in the old hypercritical episode

01:22:50   About this I talked about what I really wanted Apple to make this is back before Apple definitively closed the door on

01:22:56   Ever doing anything TiVo like when Steve Jobs went like one of his uh, most like d3 talks or something like that

01:23:02   And basically explained exactly why they're never gonna TiVo box and made me super sad

01:23:06   What I always wanted was a company that's better at this than TiVo

01:23:10   To do what I called an omnivorous box because my idea back then was like look video comes from a million different places

01:23:17   Even back then there was Netflix and there was cable and there was over the air and there was local TV and all sorts of

01:23:23   Other places where you can get video from and iTunes and all that stuff

01:23:26   It's like I don't want to deal with all those places the video comes from I don't want to deal with 10 remotes

01:23:31   I don't want to deal with 10 services

01:23:33   I don't want to deal with figuring out where it is and how I get it and what input I have switched to or anything

01:23:38   like that

01:23:39   But on the other hand I realized that all the different people who own those things are never gonna get together and say we should

01:23:44   Make this easier for customers because everybody owns their different content and their different islands

01:23:48   It has their different licensing deals for the NFL and Major League Baseball and all the HBO shows and network

01:23:53   Programming and all the different channels and cable bundle like they're never gonna get together

01:23:56   So the only way to solve this technologically is to do what TiVo did but even bigger to make a box that will eat

01:24:03   Any kind of input an omnivorous box that says I will sit in front of your television

01:24:07   and you just throw all your video crap at me,

01:24:10   and then a bunch of people will figure out

01:24:12   how to integrate with all those services,

01:24:14   and they will make the software for it,

01:24:15   and figure out how to do all the integration,

01:24:18   and your only interface will be with that omnivorous box,

01:24:21   and it takes in all your input,

01:24:22   and it can record it locally, it can stream it,

01:24:24   it can do everything,

01:24:25   and it doesn't matter where it's coming from,

01:24:28   as far as you're concerned, it's one unified interface,

01:24:30   and that's an incredibly hard thing to do.

01:24:32   Google tried to do it, TiVo has been trying to do it,

01:24:34   because you can do Netflix from TiVo,

01:24:35   and Amazon Video from TiVo, and stuff like that,

01:24:37   but they're not great at it either.

01:24:39   No one has ever made that

01:24:40   because it's an incredibly hard problem.

01:24:41   Every other one of those companies would be your enemy

01:24:43   because they don't want you doing that.

01:24:44   They don't want you being the one

01:24:45   and only enterprise television.

01:24:46   Like the cable companies want to do it with a set-top box

01:24:48   and Netflix wants to do that

01:24:50   to have your client and everything.

01:24:51   Like it's incredibly hard thing to do.

01:24:53   No one has ever even attempted to do it

01:24:55   except for maybe Google

01:24:56   and they've failed pretty much miserably.

01:24:58   TiVo has come the closest.

01:24:59   TiVo does it for plain old cable television.

01:25:02   And they were able to do that

01:25:03   because of the cable card thing

01:25:04   where you can totally replace your,

01:25:06   I don't have to have a cable box at all.

01:25:07   I haven't had a cable box in my house ever.

01:25:10   Maybe I had it when I was in Georgia before I had a TiVo.

01:25:12   But since I've had a TiVo,

01:25:13   I have not had a cable box in my house, period.

01:25:15   I've only had TiVos,

01:25:17   which is a thing you can do because of cable card,

01:25:18   which is an FCC thing they did,

01:25:20   which is not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

01:25:23   And the TiVo, it's not omnivorous,

01:25:26   but it will accept all like quote unquote real TV input.

01:25:29   And then slowly but surely they added features

01:25:31   for like Netflix clients and Amazon video clients

01:25:34   and the ability to play video from one TiVo

01:25:36   to another TiVo and they added an iOS app which is actually pretty good where I can do everything

01:25:39   on my TiVo from my phone or my iPad anywhere in the world. I can delete shows, I can set up season

01:25:44   passes, I can watch video on it from my TiVo anywhere kind of like sling block style. I can,

01:25:49   you know, watch shows on one TiVo on the TiVo downstairs. There's a little extender box you can

01:25:53   do if you don't need a full-fledged TiVo. They actually have a pretty good system and a pretty

01:25:57   good product at this point. It's just sad that they could never get enough customers to make it work

01:26:02   financially. I really hope that someone would buy them that had a lot of money that could do a really

01:26:07   good job at the product, but Apple sort of put its stake in the ground and said "no, we're doing the

01:26:10   Apple TV puck thing, we're never going to record locally, we're just going to do streaming, that's

01:26:14   the future. Forget about the TiVo thing." And Rovi seems like their plan is "we will take a piece of

01:26:22   every cable box sold by letting your cable box have TiVo hardware and software in it." And I didn't

01:26:26   even talk about the remote, which is another TiVo innovation of having an actual good remote with

01:26:31   a nice shape and distinct buttons that you can use in the dark by feel.

01:26:34   Boy, there's a lot of things I like about TiVo and I will be sad when they're gone.

01:26:38   And right now with Rovi owning them, it's kind of like a quiet period where nothing's happening,

01:26:44   but I just really, really hope that I can still, I'm begging this company, let me give you that

01:26:49   literally thousands of dollars to buy the most expensive DVR with TiVo software that I possibly

01:26:56   can that works with my cable cards. And I will keep doing that for a long, long time.

01:27:01   Cool.

01:27:02   I don't understand why either one of you two don't have T-boxes.

01:27:05   We'll save that for the next episode and follow up.

01:27:07   You two can both explain why you don't have T-boxes.

01:27:09   Oh, I can tell you right now, the files box is just fine.

01:27:12   It's not, though.

01:27:13   I don't have cable.

01:27:14   You don't have cable, right?

01:27:15   It's a really quick response.

01:27:16   I mean--

01:27:17   [SIGHS]

01:27:18   Casey doesn't care, and I can't use it.

01:27:21   So there you go.

01:27:22   Actually, all kidding aside, that

01:27:23   is the executive summary right there.

01:27:25   [LAUGHS]

01:27:26   But here's the thing, though.

01:27:27   For Casey, if you got one, you would never

01:27:29   be able to get rid of one.

01:27:29   It's like the Tesla thing like you can't you can't go back

01:27:31   No one gets a TiVo uses it and then is like I'll go back to the old way

01:27:35   It's apparently a lot of people did otherwise TiVo wouldn't be out of business

01:27:38   No, it's not enough people got them to begin with because it was so much more expensive like the cable box is like

01:27:43   Oh, it's part of my cable

01:27:44   It's only ten dollars a month to rent or whatever and no one does the math to figure out that if you just bought a TiVo

01:27:48   You would have come out anyway. Go ahead. You're gonna end the show

01:27:50   Thanks for the responses this week Casper Warby Parker and Eero and we'll see you next week

01:27:58   week.

01:28:05   Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey

01:28:15   wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:28:22   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm And if you're into Twitter, you can follow

01:28:31   Follow them @CASEYLISS

01:28:36   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:28:41   Auntie Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C

01:28:46   USA, Syracuse

01:28:48   It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:28:51   They didn't mean to accidental (accidental)

01:28:56   ♫ Tech podcast so long

01:29:00   - The files box is not good.

01:29:04   As much as I'm trying to get a rise out of you,

01:29:06   it's not good, but it's sufficient for the basic needs

01:29:09   that I have out of the DVR.

01:29:10   - I really think the Windows comparison here is apt.

01:29:14   Every DVR that's not a TiVo is mediocre at best,

01:29:18   and that's really being generous.

01:29:21   The interfaces to these things are all awful.

01:29:24   unlike Jon, I actually have used and lived with

01:29:27   a cable company DVR before.

01:29:29   And yeah, they're horrible, really.

01:29:32   However, the whole reason TiVo doesn't really have

01:29:36   much of a business left anymore is because,

01:29:38   as you said, most people don't care.

01:29:40   They will just be happy to get the one

01:29:43   their cable company offers them

01:29:44   for a few dollars extra a month,

01:29:46   and that's all they know.

01:29:48   That's probably the only kind they've ever seen.

01:29:50   - Well, it's not that they don't care.

01:29:51   It's just that they don't wanna pay more.

01:29:53   That's what it comes down to,

01:29:54   because TiVo, you have to pay for the box,

01:29:55   which is expensive,

01:29:56   and then you have to pay for a monthly service

01:29:58   on top of that, that's not part of your cable bill,

01:30:00   which is the key feature, right?

01:30:02   - Exactly.

01:30:03   - And so they were just never able to come

01:30:06   with a business model.

01:30:07   The customers that they got,

01:30:08   for the most part, if you did their customer sat,

01:30:10   they'd be super happy,

01:30:10   but they could never figure out a way

01:30:12   to get people over the barrier.

01:30:13   And it was a substantial barrier

01:30:14   because the boxes have always been expensive.

01:30:16   Lifetime has always been super expensive,

01:30:18   and the monthly bills have also,

01:30:20   I think they've gone down,

01:30:21   but they used to be like equal to or more than Netflix.

01:30:23   And I was like, what am I getting for this?

01:30:25   Like, you know, it was hard to understand

01:30:26   what you're even paying for.

01:30:27   So it's mostly just a bunch of, you know,

01:30:29   rich people essentially who have these boxes

01:30:31   and who enjoy them, which is a shame.

01:30:32   And the Windows comparison, I would do it like this.

01:30:34   I think TiVo is the Windows, where it's like,

01:30:37   that's good enough.

01:30:38   It's like maybe the Windows 95.

01:30:39   There is no Apple that's actually good in all respects.

01:30:42   Like there is no iOS.

01:30:43   And then the cable boxes are, I guess, like DOS maybe,

01:30:46   or like punch cards, like, you know,

01:30:49   and some cable boxes are better than that.

01:30:50   Like I've seen a lot of these cable boxes and I've used them.

01:30:53   Some of them have interesting technological solutions.

01:30:55   Some of them actually, I think some companies do

01:30:58   server-side DVRing and then just stream it to you over there

01:31:00   which is an interesting solution to keep hard drives

01:31:02   out of people's houses, but the UIs are all terrible.

01:31:05   The capacities are like maybe they're okay

01:31:08   for regular people, but I feel like part of the thing

01:31:10   about Tevos and part of the reason I think

01:31:12   that I think most Tevo customers buy the fancy ones

01:31:14   is the people who buy it are like enthusiasts essentially.

01:31:18   They will, you know, what is the biggest hard drive

01:31:20   you can get?

01:31:20   The biggest hard drive I had in my house was like

01:31:22   when they came out with a three terabyte hard drive,

01:31:25   this, that was the biggest hard drive in my house

01:31:27   was the one in my TiVo.

01:31:28   Why did I need all that capacity?

01:31:29   Because you realize when you have a lot of room,

01:31:32   you can do things, you can treat it differently.

01:31:35   You can't have like, oh, I'm just gonna do a season pass

01:31:37   and then I'll watch them.

01:31:38   You can record an entire season of a show

01:31:40   and just have it sitting there for like the period

01:31:42   with time when no new shows are coming out.

01:31:44   And then just, you know, and again, this is barbaric.

01:31:46   People are like, oh, well, you know,

01:31:47   Netflix has the whole season of House of Cards and I can watch it whenever I want.

01:31:50   Why do I need to have a recorder?"

01:31:51   But these are for shows that are not available through streaming or are only available through

01:31:55   purchase on iTunes or are delayed or whatever.

01:31:58   Again, it's getting better.

01:32:00   Back in the day, this was literally the only place to get a lot of stuff.

01:32:03   These days, it's almost never the only place, but it is still often the best place.

01:32:07   Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

01:32:09   The reason why Apple never got into this business is very obvious, that the DVR as a thing is

01:32:15   is just an incredible pile of messy hacks.

01:32:19   Everything about it is a messy hack.

01:32:21   - It's a beautiful hack though.

01:32:23   - There is no way to make it good.

01:32:25   There is no way to make it reliable and perfect.

01:32:28   There's no way to get what,

01:32:29   like what it tries to do is turn broadcast TV,

01:32:34   and whether it's broadcast over the air or cable,

01:32:36   I'm not distinguishing here,

01:32:37   effectively into on-demand video,

01:32:40   but with a ton of asterisks on that.

01:32:42   And where, you know, it's,

01:32:43   Well it turns it into on demand video, sort of, and most of the time.

01:32:47   It does a phenomenal job with it.

01:32:49   The only place where it falls down is, like I said, it falls down on the omnivorous thing

01:32:53   where it only consumes broadcast television.

01:32:55   And with broadcast television it does a really, really good job.

01:32:57   They're really good at that, but it doesn't take input from any other source and treat

01:33:02   it the same way.

01:33:03   It's like if you want to watch Netflix, oh you can load the Netflix client.

01:33:05   And the Netflix client on TiVo is not good.

01:33:07   And neither is the Amazon.

01:33:08   Like they're just, this is not their strength, right?

01:33:10   So there is no omnivorous box.

01:33:12   But for broadcast TV, TiVo got pretty darn good at it.

01:33:15   And the number of caveats is really small.

01:33:17   And if the alternative is just watch it when it's on

01:33:20   and use the cable company DVR, it's night and day.

01:33:23   - Ultimately, this is, it's a really complex,

01:33:27   hacky solution to a problem that shouldn't really exist

01:33:31   and the world is moving away from needing to exist.

01:33:35   Investing in TiVo now would be like investing

01:33:37   in cassette tapes in 2002.

01:33:39   I mean, yeah, there might still be some uses for them, but they're diminishing.

01:33:43   It's not as bad as cassette tapes, but here's the thing about that.

01:33:46   Like Apple's decision not to do it, like they did their own TV thing, which is more forward-looking.

01:33:50   That makes sense, right?

01:33:52   But this was hacky when it was done with analog standard-def video.

01:33:58   And if you had said, "Okay, well, I'm not going to be interested in that because it's

01:34:02   not the future," that was what, 10 years ago, 15 years ago?

01:34:07   It's not as if like just around the corner. We won't have regular television anymore

01:34:10   There was a long period of time and during like basically my entire children's life at least a decade. Oh, maybe a decade and a half

01:34:17   that's an 15 years worth of

01:34:19   Value that they've delivered making my television watching better during that time. You could be saying the whole time

01:34:26   Well, this isn't the future. This isn't the future

01:34:28   It's like yeah, but it's the 15 years from like I'm not gonna just throw away the 15 years

01:34:31   I'm not talking about geological time scares. I lived through those 15 years

01:34:35   important years. During those 15 years, I had a better experience of watching television.

01:34:40   So maybe if you're investing on a 20-year timescale, maybe don't invest in TiVo,

01:34:44   but I'm glad some company decided it's worth doing this for a 15... I mean, look at how long

01:34:51   classic Mac OS lasted. It's like, "Oh, we shouldn't have done that because the future is not

01:34:55   this. The future is iOS." Well, iOS is not going to be here until 2007, so why don't you do

01:34:59   something between 1984 and then and maybe we'll get value out of that."

01:35:06   Because Apple only turned its eye to television really late, it obviously wasn't the time

01:35:09   for them to do that.

01:35:10   Although I still think they would have benefited from, for example, buying them up and buying

01:35:16   all their patents and assets and having them perhaps design their remote for the Apple

01:35:20   TV.

01:35:21   There's still value that they could have extracted from the company, but whatever, they wanted

01:35:23   to go their own way.

01:35:24   But I'm glad Tiva was around for when it was, and I still think now there's a place for

01:35:28   it.

01:35:29   They should be shown the door eventually, but for that to happen, everybody else needs

01:35:33   to get on the same page.

01:35:34   And right now, I would much rather watch Game of Thrones queued up 10 or 15 minutes because

01:35:40   I couldn't get into the room in time on my TiVo because I know 100% reliably I'll be

01:35:44   able to watch it and then I can watch the tears of people as they weep on Twitter trying

01:35:48   to load their HBO Now app and they can't get the video to load because lots of people are

01:35:54   trying to stream it.

01:35:56   week tune in for the best cordless phone to buy for your home.

01:35:59   I already did that.

01:36:00   I think I bought the wire cutter pick and I'm not that happy with it but whatever.

01:36:05   I seriously we did like it.

01:36:07   I love that you bought a new cordless phone like now.

01:36:10   No new cordless phones plural.

01:36:12   Oh that makes it so much better.

01:36:14   We have to have we have to have landlines because our cell signal is terrible at our

01:36:17   house so we can't reliably just use our cell phones even though obviously we both have

01:36:21   cell phones.

01:36:22   There are no other solutions to this problem.

01:36:23   So we have a landline, but it's not like we have like, you know, telephone wire running

01:36:28   all over the house.

01:36:29   So we didn't really need new phones.

01:36:31   I think ours were fine and one of them just had a dead battery, but she was annoyed and

01:36:33   wanted a new one, so we got all new ones everywhere.

01:36:36   They're not getting much better.

01:36:37   That's another thing of like, are phone, cordless phones getting much better?

01:36:40   Not really.

01:36:41   They're not really great, but they're cheap and we got like five handsets and, you know,

01:36:46   they're all over the house and they work fine.

01:36:48   And like, we don't really talk on the phone that much anyway, but anyway, I did the wire

01:36:51   cutter pick and it was all right.

01:36:54   I love, Jon, that the same man can say, "Oh, I must have the best possible version of this

01:37:02   antiquated technology."

01:37:04   It's not antiquated.

01:37:05   It's cutting edge.

01:37:06   Oh, God.

01:37:07   Almost all the menus are in HD now.

01:37:10   Are you going to be the one that's buying the Accord when everyone else on the planet

01:37:14   has a Tesla or other electric vehicle?

01:37:16   I'm not buying the Accord if it's only CVT.

01:37:18   I'll tell you that.

01:37:20   I have my limits now, it's, you know, we'll see.

01:37:25   We know when I'll stop with the Accord, but yeah, like I said, I don't have a choice for

01:37:29   it.

01:37:30   What am I going to do?

01:37:31   It's all, you shouldn't buy a cordless one, you should do everything in your cell phone.

01:37:32   Well, if I want to hear people's voices, I can't, and I can't install new cell towers,

01:37:36   so.

01:37:37   You can actually install really little ones in your house?

01:37:40   The little repeater?

01:37:41   No, there's no way in hell I'm doing voice.

01:37:43   That's the thing.

01:37:44   My demand is that phone be as reliable as phone, and one of those little repeater things

01:37:48   the user internet connection does not pass that bar for me.

01:37:51   You could also just switch to a carrier that actually works in your house like AT&T.

01:37:56   My carrier has the best signal at my house.

01:37:59   There's a cell phone dead zone nearby me where a certain section of rich people refuse to

01:38:02   have cell towers built near their house and their reward is they get no cell signal.

01:38:08   I'm not in the actual dead zone but I'm close enough to it that it's dead-ish.

01:38:12   The great thing about it is on my thing I can hear them but they can't hear a word I

01:38:15   say.

01:38:16   I think you're just a really good listener.

01:38:18   - Yeah, my wife calls me all the time on my cellphone

01:38:20   and I'm at home and I say, "Hello, hello, did you talk?

01:38:22   "So are you there, are you there?"

01:38:23   I'm like, "I don't know why I bother talking.

01:38:25   "You can't hear a word I'm saying.

01:38:26   "I can hear everything you're saying perfectly clearly."

01:38:28   It's great.

01:38:29   (phone beeping)