180: Don't Cry for John, Argentina


00:00:00   That's right, it's given me time to, since we're in this no man's land,

00:00:02   given me time to eat this delicious warm apple pie that Erin just brought up that she just made,

00:00:06   because apparently that's what we decide to do when it's a thousand degrees outside.

00:00:09   No eating while podcasting! What do you think you are, John Roderick? No eating while podcasting.

00:00:14   Hey, did you hear anything up until I admitted it? Nope.

00:00:16   Have you yet spilled any apple pie into your iMac?

00:00:19   No. That would be quite an impressive feat, though.

00:00:22   It really would, I mean...

00:00:24   I just feel like eating and podcasting do not mix.

00:00:26   Well, that's what the meat button's for.

00:00:28   [MUSIC]

00:00:29   It feels like we just got off the phone.

00:00:31   Like we just got off of Skype for the last episode.

00:00:33   - It really honestly does.

00:00:35   - Here we are again, two nights later.

00:00:37   - Yeah, 48 hours later, almost to the minute.

00:00:40   - I barely published the last episode.

00:00:42   - So as we record, it is Friday evening, the 22nd of July,

00:00:47   and one of us is skipping town next week,

00:00:49   and so we're recording early

00:00:51   because we're dedicated to you, our listeners,

00:00:53   and don't want you to go any time, or any weeks, I should say,

00:00:56   without a new episode of this accidental of podcasts.

00:01:00   And so we are recording very shortly after the last show

00:01:03   and did not have a lot of time to accumulate follow-up.

00:01:07   That being said, as always, we do have some for you.

00:01:11   Do we wanna dive right in, gentlemen?

00:01:12   - Let's do it.

00:01:13   - Let's start with the dog rental,

00:01:15   which was the namesake for the last episode,

00:01:20   free to play dogs, or was it, yeah, that's right.

00:01:24   Anyway, the internet has written in to correct us and has referred to the true gift to humanity.

00:01:30   That is Snopes.com, which says the title they used was "Pika Q," which I thought was kind

00:01:36   of funny.

00:01:38   They correct us in the story that we told about the animal shelter and the dogs.

00:01:44   To quote from Snopes, "Claim, a shelter rented dogs from embarrassed adult Pokemon Go players

00:01:49   and raked in tons of cash for all their dogs were swiftly adopted.

00:01:53   false. What's true? The Muncie Animal Shelter of Muncie, Indiana enacted a novel Pokemon Go dog

00:01:58   walking program inviting locals to walk shelter dogs during their gaming sessions. What's false?

00:02:03   The shelter didn't charge players $5 an hour per dog to "rent" dogs for--

00:02:08   Well, so it was free to play.

00:02:10   That's a fair point. Rent dogs for walking. They were not rapidly cleared of dogs for adoption,

00:02:16   nor did they make MegaBox off a program designed to harness a gaming phenomenon to get shelter dogs

00:02:20   some time outside. So that was all a bunch of BS for the most part, but it's still an

00:02:26   adorable story and I'm kind of glad we talked about it anyway.

00:02:30   Yeah, so two things on this. First, I intentionally didn't retweet people pointing us to the Snopes

00:02:36   because I wanted to give people like a week to think it's real. Of course, it doesn't

00:02:40   work if we record two days after the previous one. People who aren't listening to the live

00:02:44   stream, I want to give them—I mean, maybe you guys already are cheated, so that's too

00:02:48   bad. I did not.

00:02:49   I didn't have the heart. I want to give people a week to believe.

00:02:52   And like when we prefaced this in the past, in the last show, we were like, you know,

00:02:56   who knows if this is true, it's on the internet, blah blah blah, but it sounds like a good story.

00:02:59   And that's, of course, all the things that are made up on the internet sound like a good story.

00:03:02   That's how they spread. But I like to give people a week to think it was real, because it was a nice, heartwarming story.

00:03:07   And the second, Casey referred to Snopes as like the gift of the internet or whatever.

00:03:12   It used to be a lot more than it is now. The Snopes website is pretty grim.

00:03:17   pretty pretty grim. Like, it is not a nice place to be. I was scrolling through this

00:03:22   story and there's like this picture of maggots at the bottom that's part of one of those

00:03:25   terrible ads and everything is like blinking and moving.

00:03:28   Oh, God, yeah, you're right.

00:03:29   No, it's not a good sign. I don't know what happened to it. You feel like IMDb or whatever.

00:03:35   I mean, IMDb has gotten worse too, but like you think these old sort of things that were

00:03:40   around a long time ago that have value that sort of are category-defining websites should

00:03:44   have found some way to make it work without making their sites more and more gross over

00:03:50   time but alas.

00:03:52   But that's just the web these days. I mean it isn't like Snopes is run by horrible people.

00:03:57   I mean I don't know who runs it but…

00:03:58   It's not just the web these days.

00:04:00   No, it really is.

00:04:01   It isn't. It's just in your cynical view that you think every website is doomed to

00:04:05   this fate but that's not true. There are websites that are not like this. Like I said,

00:04:09   even IMDB which has gotten worse in terms of usability but hasn't become festoon with

00:04:12   ads and viruses and pictures of maggots, and there's a pro version that you can pay for

00:04:17   that gets rid of a lot of that crap, like that's the way you do it. Or Wikipedia. Wikipedia

00:04:20   is not, you know, it doesn't have "Tabooli" or whatever ads at the bottom of it, it's

00:04:25   got what's-his-name's-face coming down asking you for money. But still, it's not, you know,

00:04:29   this is not the ultimate fate of every website. This is the fate of websites that are slowly

00:04:33   circling the drain.

00:04:35   It's very hard to monetize a website in 2016 that doesn't have a very particularly targeted

00:04:41   audience like Snopes in ways that aren't horrible. This is not like a gradual progression that

00:04:49   happened over the last 20 years. This is a very rapid progression that happened over

00:04:53   the last like three years. It's been very recent and very quick with the massive shift

00:05:00   in traffic of like where traffic comes from going all the way into Facebook, a ton of

00:05:07   desktop browsing going away being replaced by either phone browsing or just not browsing

00:05:11   websites and just spending more time on social networks instead. And of course all the, you

00:05:16   know, robo ad networks and all the problems that go along with those like the horrible

00:05:22   ads and the massive fraud problems and I mean it's a tough business now to try to make money

00:05:28   by just having an ad supported website. It's very, very hard. It's nearly impossible for

00:05:33   most sites to do it in a way that they can both afford to have any kind of staff quality

00:05:38   at all and also have a site that is not very focused, you know, audience-wise, so it can't

00:05:44   get very expensive ads and that is not just full of horrible crap like that. I mean, look

00:05:48   around. How many websites do you see that are really in great shape these days that

00:05:54   have a staff of more than like two people? It's really hard to find any.

00:05:58   Yeah, but all the more reason that like the well-known sites have a leg up because they're

00:06:02   They're like, "Where does everybody go for movie stuff, IMDb?"

00:06:05   I mean, Amazon bought them already, so they basically have already been saved by their

00:06:09   plans.

00:06:10   But, you know, it's not impossible.

00:06:13   And if it's going to be more difficult now than it used to be or whatever, the ones that

00:06:17   have the most advantage are the ones that are already established genre-defining categories.

00:06:22   Even Slashdot never got this bad, or isn't this bad now, because I believe it still exists.

00:06:27   Well, yeah, all of Slashdot's trash is in their comments.

00:06:29   Fair point.

00:06:30   So what about like the Sweet Home for example? That's not festooned with terrible ads all

00:06:35   over the place. Now to be fair they are, they appear to be pretty reliant on affiliate,

00:06:39   Amazon affiliate money and Ghostery is reporting what looks at a glance to be 20 different

00:06:45   trackers that they're using on the site.

00:06:47   Yeah, I mean it is basically a shopping site. So it's different. Like if you're a shopping

00:06:51   site you can make money off of affiliate stuff or offer the profit of things you're directly

00:06:54   selling. It's very different for you know something like Snopes which is like a very

00:06:59   basic content site. You make money off of page views, period. And it is really hard

00:07:05   to get anything good there these days, especially when you are both big and untargeted, like

00:07:11   Snopes is.

00:07:12   Snopes should be no different than Wikipedia, though. Because the same thing, Wikipedia

00:07:15   is general purpose. There's no confined audience. It's extremely broad. It's a simple site

00:07:20   that just contains text. And yet Wikipedia not festooned with ads or viruses.

00:07:24   - Well Wikipedia also, first of all, it is donation funded

00:07:27   by what seems like a pretty large amount of people,

00:07:30   and even then, they still have to put

00:07:31   the giant Jimmy Wales head on top of Wikipedia

00:07:33   in what seems like a very increasing frequency.

00:07:38   But that also, I'm pretty sure that they have

00:07:40   a pretty small staff of actually paid people.

00:07:44   And it probably also went non-profit, right?

00:07:47   - How many people do you think Snopes needs?

00:07:49   I don't think it needs a gigantic staff of people.

00:07:52   I mean, they could leverage volunteers as well.

00:07:54   This is not a site where people have to file seven stories

00:07:58   a day about-- it's not like a gaming site or something.

00:08:00   They are much harder categories than Snopes.

00:08:02   It just feels like a shame that Snopes is exactly

00:08:04   one of those sites that, because it's mostly purely text

00:08:06   and it's a simple site, and it shouldn't require a giant staff

00:08:09   and they're not reviewing cars or sending people

00:08:13   to trade shows or doing anything else that costs a lot of money

00:08:15   up front.

00:08:17   It's just a shame that it is--

00:08:20   because it's still popular.

00:08:21   People still link to Snopes.

00:08:22   I wish it had been replaced by like

00:08:23   a Stack Overflow versus Quora equivalent

00:08:26   where the crappy site gets replaced by the better one.

00:08:28   But instead we all just go to Snopes

00:08:29   and just every time we do it gets worse.

00:08:31   - Well, and you know, it's also possible,

00:08:33   you know, we don't know that the Snopes owner,

00:08:37   who owns Snopes?

00:08:38   Is it some big company or is it just kind of its own thing?

00:08:40   - The maggots own Snopes now.

00:08:41   - Yeah, right.

00:08:42   But like, you know, they could just be really tired

00:08:46   of running it and just maximizing profit for a while too.

00:08:48   Like that is also a possibility here.

00:08:50   But I think it's more likely that they are

00:08:53   at least partially a victim of the problems

00:08:56   that all web publishers face these days,

00:08:58   with trying to get any money out of ads

00:09:00   in an age where almost everybody browses on phones,

00:09:03   almost all traffic comes from Facebook,

00:09:06   and almost nobody clicks on ads on phones, by the way,

00:09:08   so you have to make money in other creepy ways.

00:09:10   And also the ads that you're selling are being sold

00:09:12   by decreasingly few brokers with decreasing prices.

00:09:17   - Fair enough.

00:09:18   All right, and to bring this back to Pokemon,

00:09:22   Hugh wrote in to say, "Hey, this is the rules.

00:09:25   You gotta get through the follow-up before we move on."

00:09:28   Hugh wrote in to say, "My friend was very excited

00:09:30   to play Pokemon Go with her seven-year-old son.

00:09:32   She excitedly installed it and said,

00:09:34   'Let's go out and play!'

00:09:35   But he was quick with his rebuttal.

00:09:37   No, mom, Pokemon is for old people."

00:09:40   Sad times.

00:09:42   Just like that, we're all old all over again.

00:09:46   - It's kinda true.

00:09:46   Like, you look outside,

00:09:48   There was a couple stories about this, about Nintendo targeting people in generational

00:09:53   ways.

00:09:54   Like if you played Pokemon as a kid, now you're ready to play it on your smartphone.

00:09:57   Because at the same situation with my family, you realize that if your kid doesn't have

00:10:02   a smartphone, it's very difficult to play Pokemon Go without at least one person with

00:10:06   a smartphone that you can tether to.

00:10:07   But you do have to be on the move with internet access at the same time.

00:10:11   And seven-year-olds don't have a portable device with internet access that they can

00:10:16   walk around the neighborhood with.

00:10:17   They would have to go, I mean they should be going with a parent anyway, but like, when

00:10:21   I look, when I see all those pictures, look at all these people, they're all playing Pokemon

00:10:24   Go, I don't see 50% kids, I don't even see 25% kids, I see maybe like 5% kids and 95%

00:10:32   young adults and adults.

00:10:34   So it is a game for old people.

00:10:36   I don't think Nintendo cares, old people have money, right?

00:10:39   But we'll see, although finally Nintendo was making public statements trying to deflate

00:10:45   his own stock price and I was like,

00:10:46   "Do you realize we don't make that much money from this?

00:10:48   "We get a license fee and the actual money

00:10:50   "goes to this other company?

00:10:52   "It's great that you doubled our stock price,

00:10:54   "but perhaps you don't understand how this works.

00:10:56   "We're not getting as rich as you think we are."

00:10:59   - Delightful.

00:11:01   All right, any other follow-up?

00:11:03   - For 48 hours later, no.

00:11:05   - Actually, we did get one really nice note

00:11:09   from a person named Cap.

00:11:10   Cap said, "Hi, one thing that's great about Apple

00:11:13   "not updating the Mac for ages,

00:11:14   there's never been a better time to buy a Mac secondhand.

00:11:18   A few months ago I managed to pick up a 2011 iMac

00:11:20   with a SSD installed for an absolute bargain,

00:11:23   added a bunch of USB 3 ports via Thunderbolt dongle

00:11:25   and couldn't be happier.

00:11:27   It isn't just that this machine was ridiculously cheap,

00:11:29   I also didn't feel like I'm missing out on anything

00:11:31   besides retina by not getting a new Mac.

00:11:33   And this is, I thought this was a really good point

00:11:35   because like when you see that the entire lineup

00:11:39   in certain families, if not the whole Mac lineup,

00:11:42   has not changed that much in like three years,

00:11:45   that means you can buy a three year old Mac

00:11:47   and it's still pretty competitive

00:11:49   with the brand new ones that are coming out today.

00:11:52   And it's a mixed bag, obviously we'd like things

00:11:55   to be getting better over periods of three years

00:11:58   in the computer industry,

00:11:59   but as long as they're getting better so slowly,

00:12:02   or not at all, then you could pick up

00:12:06   a three year old Mac Pro that's almost out of warranty now

00:12:10   for probably a decent price,

00:12:12   and it's still the same machine being sold new.

00:12:14   More realistically, most people wouldn't be doing that,

00:12:18   most people could get similarly great deals

00:12:20   on like a MacBook Pro.

00:12:22   You can get, the first generation Retina MacBook Pro

00:12:24   is from 2012, that's now four years old,

00:12:27   and it's not that different from the ones

00:12:29   they're selling brand new still today.

00:12:31   Like it isn't that much slower.

00:12:32   You might have to replace the battery if it's worn out,

00:12:36   but these lithium poly batteries don't wear out that quickly.

00:12:40   So you can really get amazing deals

00:12:42   on three to five year old Macs now

00:12:46   that are almost as good as the ones

00:12:47   they are still selling brand new today.

00:12:50   - I have trouble bending my mind in such a way

00:12:52   that this is actually a good thing.

00:12:53   Like I know some people can, you know,

00:12:55   like I'm not missing out, it's not much worse

00:12:57   than what you could buy new, but it is still

00:12:59   a really old and really slow computer.

00:13:02   It just so happens that you can't even buy one

00:13:04   that's that much better, but it doesn't change

00:13:06   like in absolute values, the state of that old machine.

00:13:09   And also, it may not change Apple's deprecation window of like my Mac Pro and a bunch of other

00:13:14   machines don't have support for Mac OS, Sierra and stuff.

00:13:17   I'm not sure that window, Apple's sliding window of dropping old hardware support for

00:13:21   OS's, takes into account the fact that Apple is not making their computers much better.

00:13:25   So I think that window moves along whether Apple releases new Macs or not, which is kind

00:13:30   of sad.

00:13:31   And really, you're right, they're not that much worse than the current ones.

00:13:34   And in some cases, you can find a machine that's a couple years old that has some attributes

00:13:38   that are actually a little bit better than the current machines, but all you're doing

00:13:42   is putting yourself even farther back so that when the new Macs inevitably do come back,

00:13:48   like that gap will suddenly wad because we all presume Apple will continue to produce

00:13:52   Macintoshes in the future at some point.

00:13:56   And when they come out, suddenly the feeling that you have is like, "Oh, this is such

00:14:01   a bargain, it's such a good deal," because the gap between you and the best available

00:14:05   is small, the gap between you and the best available is about to take a giant leap, and

00:14:10   that's not going to feel too good.

00:14:11   So yeah, I can see where this person is coming from, but to my mind and my personality, I

00:14:20   think it's even worse to buy a used one now.

00:14:23   It's kind of like if Apple was rapidly advancing, you could get a used one that is better in

00:14:28   terms of absolute value, just because they're going forward so quickly that you'd end up

00:14:34   with a better machine, but like, (sighs)

00:14:36   I don't know, I think it's bad all around,

00:14:38   but maybe I'm just sad about this.

00:14:40   - Well, I mean, I suppose you could look at it

00:14:43   the most horrible way, which is,

00:14:44   if you buy a brand new machine from Apple today,

00:14:47   you're basically buying a three-year-old machine

00:14:50   for a brand new price.

00:14:52   - Well, that's what I'm saying, like save your money.

00:14:54   Rather than, don't buy a new one, don't buy a used one,

00:14:57   just keep putting money into your little

00:14:59   buy a Mac later fund, so that when they do come out

00:15:01   with new ones, you can get a fancier one.

00:15:03   - Sure, but if you need a Mac now

00:15:05   and you need one for like, I don't know, 700 bucks,

00:15:08   like what do you really,

00:15:09   and especially if the Mac Mini is not going

00:15:12   to suit your needs, which at 700 bucks

00:15:15   it almost certainly won't,

00:15:16   and even with infinite money it might not,

00:15:18   if you really want a laptop,

00:15:19   which almost everybody does these days,

00:15:22   if you have that kind of budget

00:15:23   and a good MacBook or MacBook Pro

00:15:26   is gonna cost you nearly $2,000,

00:15:29   once it's optioned reasonably,

00:15:32   then that's a pretty good option to get a three year old one

00:15:36   for basically get today's Mac

00:15:39   for what it's actually worth today,

00:15:41   which is a three year old one's price.

00:15:43   - Yeah, if I had a business and I absolutely had to buy one

00:15:45   since new employees were coming on board

00:15:47   and we didn't have computers for them,

00:15:49   I might buy the cheapest used one I could possibly get

00:15:51   with the idea that I will buy a new one also

00:15:54   like as soon as they come out.

00:15:56   Because that is probably like,

00:15:58   what's the least amount of money we can spend now

00:15:59   to get a computer on your desk that you can use

00:16:02   while we wait for the new Max to come out,

00:16:04   knowing that as soon as they do,

00:16:06   we're going to resell those used ones

00:16:07   and get a new one for you.

00:16:09   That makes sense to me.

00:16:10   - I mean, you could probably get a used 101

00:16:13   for the same price it'll cost

00:16:15   to upgrade the new one to one terabyte.

00:16:18   - Mm-hmm, yeah, don't remind me.

00:16:20   (laughing)

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00:18:44   Thanks a lot.

00:18:44   - I talked a lot about this on a recent episode

00:18:51   of Reconcilable Differences that I think is not out yet,

00:18:53   so I don't really have that much to retread about it here, although honestly I'm not

00:18:58   sure how much overlap there is in the audience between those two shows, so maybe we'll

00:19:00   just say all the same things again in true Marco fashion, where he says he doesn't

00:19:04   have anything to say about a topic and then just says everything over again.

00:19:08   So this topic is Twitter's little verified checkmark that historically people have had.

00:19:15   If you're a super important celebrity and people want to know, like, "Is this the

00:19:18   real Sheryl Crow?" and you look at their little Twitter profile and it shows a little

00:19:22   checkmark and you're like, "Oh, it must be the real one," and not the million parody

00:19:26   impersonation accounts or whatever.

00:19:28   Of which there are many.

00:19:29   How did you land on Sheryl Crow as your example?

00:19:31   Oh, I don't know.

00:19:32   I was trying to think of a celebrity.

00:19:33   Like, who do the kids know these days?

00:19:36   Not Sheryl Crow.

00:19:37   Is Sheryl Crow the most recent celebrity you can come up with?

00:19:39   It's Free Association.

00:19:40   No, it's not the most recent, but like, I mean, I guess I could have gone with Taylor

00:19:43   Swift.

00:19:44   I mean, I don't know what you have.

00:19:46   Anyway, that's what the checkmark has been for historically, and I think we've talked

00:19:50   about this topic before, how it would be much better if that kind of attestation where Twitter

00:19:57   says "yes, we are telling you that this is actually the person you think it is," if that

00:20:02   was available to many more people, because it's not just celebrities that suffer from

00:20:05   accounts that impersonate them and otherwise make their lives miserable by people mistaking

00:20:12   them for somebody else, just for different Unicode characters or capital I instead of

00:20:15   an L or whatever.

00:20:16   whatever. I mean, I don't understand that that much because you can just right-click

00:20:20   on your web browser and fake a screenshot much easier than making a fake Twitter account.

00:20:23   But anyway, the second aspect of this is because it's historically been celebrities that

00:20:29   get to have this checkmark, Twitter has rolled out a series of different views and tools

00:20:35   and filters and features in their official client that are only available to people who

00:20:39   are verified, with the idea being they have so many followers and have so many replies

00:20:42   to go through, they need extra tools to deal with their stuff.

00:20:45   And again, a lot of people who deal with harassment and other problems on Twitter could also use

00:20:51   those tools, but oh, they're not important enough to get verified.

00:20:55   And so I think in our last conversation about this, I was saying, and so I think you two

00:21:00   were agreeing, that verification should be available to everybody, and we understand

00:21:05   that it takes time and possibly money to verify because they need a state ID, or they basically

00:21:10   need to check that you really are you.

00:21:12   And that takes time, and a human being has to do it, and that costs money.

00:21:15   But we're like, "Just charge a fee for it."

00:21:18   If it costs you money, we're not saying to anyone, "You have to give this away for free."

00:21:21   Charge a nominal fee, because pretty much everybody I know who desperately wants to

00:21:25   be verified for a purpose, to get the tools or to deal with harassment or to make sure

00:21:30   that they're not impersonated, would gladly pay a nominal fee.

00:21:35   They'll throw the money at you in two seconds to get the little checkmark that says, "Yes,

00:21:39   I really am who I am."

00:21:40   limited to celebrities, why not open it to everybody?

00:21:43   So in theory, recently, Twitter has changed its rules in the light of the whole Ghostbusters

00:21:48   abuse thing, and one of the stars of Ghostbusters got chased off Twitter by a bunch of terrible

00:21:53   people.

00:21:54   I don't know if that was the impetus behind this move, but timing-wise it sure looks like

00:21:59   it.

00:22:00   Twitter verification is now open to anybody who wants to fill out an application on Twitter's

00:22:04   website.

00:22:05   You fill in a bunch of fields, you have to tell them why you think you should be verified.

00:22:08   If you're a brand or a company, you can check a checkbox for that.

00:22:12   If you're an individual, you tell them, like, "Here's all the places where you

00:22:14   can see who I am.

00:22:15   Here's where I should be verified."

00:22:17   And then it goes into a big black hole and in theory they come back and say, "Yes,

00:22:20   you're verified," or, "No, you're not."

00:22:25   And this comes up specifically as it relates to this show because Marco's been verified

00:22:30   for a long time, right?

00:22:31   Were you verified at the very beginning?

00:22:33   - This is the thing, I got verified like three weeks ago

00:22:37   or something, it was really recent.

00:22:39   - I thought you'd been verified for a long time.

00:22:41   - No, like I started ranting about, there was some,

00:22:45   oh, it was when the, what was that app, Engage,

00:22:48   that app they launched a couple weeks ago

00:22:49   that we were all made fun of?

00:22:50   - Oh, like the celebrity only app to like see

00:22:53   what people are saying about your tweets or whatever.

00:22:56   It's like ego surfing.

00:22:57   - Yeah, I mean anybody could use it, but yeah,

00:22:59   and I actually use it for a few days on my phone

00:23:01   to kind of try out.

00:23:02   But when that launched, I was basically ranting

00:23:05   about how this app gave special privileges

00:23:09   to verified people in the way that,

00:23:11   not as verified people using the app,

00:23:14   but if you were verified, your tweets would show up

00:23:17   in these filtered views higher than non-verified people.

00:23:21   And it was just like yet one more thing that was,

00:23:23   'cause the verified system has,

00:23:25   having a system like this has lots of problems

00:23:27   and inequalities inherent in it.

00:23:29   It's one thing if it's only for identity verification,

00:23:32   but once you add any other bonus features

00:23:36   or higher statuses, once you attach those

00:23:39   to verified status, it makes this program

00:23:41   something that should be available to everybody,

00:23:43   because then it's like, well, if verified people

00:23:46   get their tweets seen more in certain filters

00:23:49   or get higher priority things or get certain

00:23:50   abuse control filters that other people don't get,

00:23:53   I mean, everybody should be able to be verified,

00:23:56   because then it's a feature segment,

00:23:58   not like a status thing.

00:24:00   And to tie status to also like abuse control features

00:24:05   and relevancy in search lists and stuff,

00:24:07   that's kinda icky, you know?

00:24:10   So I was ranting and raving about that

00:24:12   and a nice person who worked at Twitter submitted me,

00:24:17   but it seemed like that's just been up to the public now,

00:24:19   and that's great, sort of.

00:24:21   It's great in that, okay, well,

00:24:23   now a lot more people can get verified,

00:24:26   but it still is subject to some kind of importance,

00:24:30   judgment on the side of whoever's reviewing his forms.

00:24:35   'Cause we know, for example, Federico Vittucci got rejected.

00:24:38   - Which is insane, by the way.

00:24:40   - It completely--

00:24:40   - A person who is like, he has his own website,

00:24:44   popular website, it's been around for years.

00:24:47   - Yeah. - It is like,

00:24:48   I'm not gonna say a pillar of the community,

00:24:49   but it's not an obscure place.

00:24:51   He's not an obscure person, and he's not even just

00:24:55   random person who happens to have a blog. This is years and years of working in. He

00:25:01   should be verified under the old pass where Twitter went around to all the websites, all

00:25:06   the tech websites or whatever, and said, "Hey, here you go. Anybody who works for your website

00:25:10   can get a checkmark." He didn't get one then, and the fact that he got rejected now

00:25:14   makes no sense.

00:25:15   Exactly. Yeah, because they always had a lot of rule shifts over time of what kind of people

00:25:23   would get verified. Initially, when it first started, it was basically like people who

00:25:27   had the most followers on Twitter and they kind of like worked their way down the follower

00:25:30   account until they got just above my number of followers and they stopped. And then it

00:25:35   was, "Okay, well now we're just going to do like public figures like celebrities,

00:25:40   politicians, and people who work for the media." And that was kind of loosely defined, the

00:25:45   media. It always meant whatever kind of media I didn't do. So it was like, you know, not

00:25:49   not just bloggers and not podcasters and not app developers,

00:25:53   but if you work for a journalism thing,

00:25:58   however they define that.

00:26:01   These definitions always shifted and were very vague

00:26:03   and really very much based on like,

00:26:06   does some handful of people at Twitter

00:26:08   think you're important this month?

00:26:10   And then it was weird, it was like,

00:26:12   if you worked for, if they declared

00:26:16   a certain website or publication

00:26:17   would be like a verified publication.

00:26:20   Anybody who worked for them would get verified

00:26:22   in this big batch that they would do.

00:26:24   And so you'd have people who wrote one article

00:26:28   for a paper somewhere, they have 400 followers

00:26:32   and they're verified.

00:26:33   And then you have people who have 50,000 followers

00:26:35   who can't get verified.

00:26:36   It was always a weird system.

00:26:39   And it's always been these vaguely defined,

00:26:43   very human judgy kind of clarification.

00:26:48   I know one of our friends reached out about a year ago

00:26:52   to try to get the three of us verified.

00:26:55   And they told, 'cause he knew a guy who knew a guy,

00:26:58   and the response was, "We don't consider podcasters

00:27:01   "to be media personalities at this time."

00:27:04   And YouTubers were getting it, but podcasters weren't.

00:27:07   It's just like, again, it's always been this weird system,

00:27:10   and it's always gonna run me the wrong way,

00:27:12   and that's why I started complaining,

00:27:13   and eventually I complained enough that I got verified.

00:27:15   And I made a joke when I got verified

00:27:16   that now that I got it, in like three weeks,

00:27:19   they're gonna just end the program.

00:27:20   And they didn't, instead they just opened up to everybody,

00:27:23   which I guess is better.

00:27:25   - Well, a couple things on that.

00:27:26   So your complaint was originally,

00:27:28   hey, like you said, it's stupid to tie features

00:27:32   and things that a lot of people could use

00:27:33   to this whole vague status thing, right?

00:27:35   - Exactly.

00:27:36   - And I'm not saying that whoever was to help you

00:27:38   speaks for all of Twitter, but what happened was not,

00:27:42   "Hey, you know, Marco, you have a point.

00:27:44   We should change the way we do things."

00:27:45   Instead, it was, "Hey, you know, Marco,

00:27:47   if we give you a check mark, will you shut up?"

00:27:49   Like, again, I'm not saying that was the intent or whatever,

00:27:52   but like, it basically, the person who did this for you

00:27:56   is not empowered to change Twitter's policy, right?

00:27:58   So they can't, like, it's not the CEO

00:27:59   that did this for you, I'm assuming, right?

00:28:01   So they just tried to do the nicest thing they could

00:28:03   to make you feel better,

00:28:04   which is a good customer service move,

00:28:05   and it's like, "I can't actually solve your problem,

00:28:07   but how about if I do this as a make you feel better?"

00:28:09   And they're like, "You know what,

00:28:10   it kind of does make me feel a little better,

00:28:11   But it didn't do anything to solve the actual problem,

00:28:14   because the person who cared about this

00:28:15   was obviously not the CEO or anyone in position

00:28:18   to solve the problem.

00:28:19   And as for the media things,

00:28:23   to reinforce your point that anybody vaguely associated

00:28:26   with the media thing could get one,

00:28:28   when the Twitter checkmark fairy came to Ars Technica,

00:28:31   it was offered to everybody, including to me.

00:28:34   And I am one of those people who writes

00:28:35   like one article a year.

00:28:36   I didn't have 400 followers, but you know,

00:28:38   I was not a, my contribution to Ars Technica

00:28:41   though they may have been large in size, were few in number.

00:28:45   And I was offered a checkmark.

00:28:47   And I didn't take it because part of the conditions

00:28:49   were you would be getting a checkmark as part of Ars

00:28:51   Technica.

00:28:52   So you had to use your Ars Technica email

00:28:53   to be associated with it.

00:28:54   And I didn't want a checkmark as part of ours,

00:28:56   A, because I didn't feel like I was part of ours,

00:28:57   like I was a freelancer.

00:28:59   I don't have any sort of stake in the company.

00:29:02   I'm not even a full-time employee and never have been.

00:29:05   And B, I didn't want a checkmark as part of Ars Technica.

00:29:08   I, because I'm a giant egomaniac or whatever,

00:29:11   wanted to be recognized for myself.

00:29:13   And if you don't want to recognize,

00:29:14   give me a check mark for being me, then fine.

00:29:16   I don't want one.

00:29:17   Like I don't want to be on Ars Technicus coattails

00:29:19   or whatever.

00:29:20   So for multiple reasons, I turned that one down.

00:29:23   And I figured like, look, well, you know,

00:29:24   if I'm never gonna check mark,

00:29:25   I'm never gonna need a check mark, right?

00:29:28   But this whole thing of like, whatever,

00:29:30   I wish you could find the press release or whatever it was.

00:29:33   Opening it up to everybody,

00:29:34   the application process may be open up to everybody,

00:29:36   but as Vitigi shows,

00:29:38   it's not as if they opened up the check mark to everybody.

00:29:40   not only do they not open it up to everybody,

00:29:42   but their definition doesn't make any sense

00:29:45   because maybe it's a slightly broader definition,

00:29:48   but if Viteeshi doesn't fit under the definition,

00:29:50   then I shouldn't get a check mark either.

00:29:52   And I don't like that because I want a check mark,

00:29:54   and that's why this topic is here.

00:29:55   Because beyond all reason, I want a stupid check mark.

00:29:59   And as I wind about at length on Reconcileable Differences,

00:30:03   I don't need a check mark like the people

00:30:05   who actually need it.

00:30:06   People who are actually the targets of harassment

00:30:08   who need these tools, people who have huge number of accounts

00:30:11   impersonating them.

00:30:13   I mean, Brianna Wu is the poster child for this.

00:30:15   The fact that she doesn't have a check mark around

00:30:17   makes no sense.

00:30:18   She's constantly in touch with Twitter,

00:30:20   sending them hundreds of reports, getting accounts banned,

00:30:22   and no one at the receiving end of this flood of reports

00:30:26   that are abuse of Twitter goes, you

00:30:27   know what might help this person?

00:30:29   Maybe we should make her verified.

00:30:30   And she has a huge number of followers too.

00:30:32   Every criteria that you could possibly

00:30:34   think of for someone who's not a publication or whatever,

00:30:38   It doesn't make any sense.

00:30:39   So I'm frustrated with these strange rules.

00:30:42   I'm frustrated that even under the strange rules, I still don't have one.

00:30:46   And yes, I did apply.

00:30:47   I applied on Wednesday.

00:30:49   I had to fill in a bio, which I had never filled out on Twitter intentionally, because,

00:30:53   again, it was another 10 minutes of whining about this and reconciling differences.

00:30:57   It's impossible to write a bio that doesn't sound god-awful.

00:31:00   So I just wrote a god-awful bio.

00:31:01   If you go look on twitter.com/saracusa right now, you'll see my god-awful bio.

00:31:06   I had to put a birthday.

00:31:08   I already had a header image.

00:31:10   When I did the application, I was worried that they would get yelled at for my header

00:31:13   image.

00:31:14   My header image is a picture from the video game Journey, which I love and everyone should

00:31:16   play and no one should be spoiled about.

00:31:19   And it's like a wallpaper that you could download from Sony's website, but technically it contains

00:31:24   like copyrighted images or whatever.

00:31:26   Like if you go to the Sony site, it's like, "Hey, if you're just in Journey, come here

00:31:29   and here are wallpapers."

00:31:30   And that's one of the wallpapers, so I assume it's free for me to take and put as my header

00:31:34   image.

00:31:35   I don't even know.

00:31:36   Anyway, I filled it out.

00:31:38   I have not heard back from them.

00:31:39   Everyone else is tweeting, "Hey, I entered a thing into the application and I heard back

00:31:43   and I'm verified and I have a checkmark.

00:31:45   All sorts of checkmarks, blue checkmarks are sprouting everywhere."

00:31:47   Honestly, I shouldn't care.

00:31:49   All I should care about is that the people who actually need checkmarks get them.

00:31:53   And by the way, those people still aren't getting them, which I don't understand.

00:31:55   But anyway.

00:31:56   You need one, Jon.

00:31:57   You need one.

00:31:58   Yep.

00:31:59   I'm not getting one either.

00:32:00   This is like the good version of a Wikipedia page, because everyone thinks they want a

00:32:02   on a Wikipedia page, but anyone's heard me talk

00:32:05   about Wikipedia knows I have many problems with Wikipedia.

00:32:08   I don't want a Wikipedia page.

00:32:09   It's a curse more than a blessing.

00:32:10   But a check mark, basically only upside.

00:32:14   And no real downside.

00:32:16   And anyway, I don't have one.

00:32:18   - Let me tell you why you want one.

00:32:19   I mean, 'cause why I want one,

00:32:21   'cause we're all egomaniacs, first of all.

00:32:23   But you can look at it from the original purpose

00:32:27   of verified, and it's kind of like the lock icon

00:32:30   on an SSL site.

00:32:32   getting a little lock icon in your address bar.

00:32:34   First of all, it's worth questioning,

00:32:36   like is that even effective?

00:32:37   Because we know very much that the lock icon

00:32:40   in address bars has never been very effective

00:32:43   because nobody goes to check it.

00:32:44   And all the web browsers keep updating their designs

00:32:48   to more and more emphasize the security level

00:32:51   of the site that you're on.

00:32:53   Or to put up even crazier and scarier warnings

00:32:56   if something is not quite right.

00:32:58   And yet people still get phished all the time.

00:33:00   ♪ Time for the music ♪

00:33:02   and still enter their stuff in secure forms and everything.

00:33:05   So we know that that kind of warning

00:33:09   doesn't really work for the most part for most people,

00:33:12   'cause most people just don't think to check

00:33:14   that kind of thing,

00:33:14   or they don't know to check that kind of thing.

00:33:17   And even if they know,

00:33:17   they sometimes forget and just miss it.

00:33:19   Whether it's sort of that original purpose is kind of,

00:33:22   it's not that relevant,

00:33:23   because that original purpose is not a very strong purpose.

00:33:26   What it really is is jewelry.

00:33:29   It is a prize.

00:33:32   It is a sign awarded to you that says, "I am important."

00:33:35   And because it is emphasized everywhere,

00:33:39   you're seeing those big blue check marks

00:33:41   on all these important people in your timeline,

00:33:42   so it is very much a status symbol.

00:33:45   And whether you need or want

00:33:47   the additional filtering features it brings,

00:33:50   you wanna be a special person.

00:33:52   And honestly, when I got it,

00:33:54   I have almost felt like a responsibility

00:33:57   has been granted to me,

00:33:58   and I have to tweet more responsibly now.

00:34:00   It's weird.

00:34:01   - How does one go about tweeting more responsibly?

00:34:04   What are you not tweeting that previously

00:34:06   you would have tweeted?

00:34:07   - It's like getting a BS title at work

00:34:10   to try to make you more responsible.

00:34:12   Like, it has totally worked on me.

00:34:14   Where I'm like, well, I'm representing

00:34:16   this blue check mark now.

00:34:17   I better, you know, it's like how cops around

00:34:20   are supposed to drink at bars in their uniforms.

00:34:23   I kind of feel like I gotta be good for this check mark

00:34:26   and be on better behavior now.

00:34:29   - 'Cause you can't say that it's not really Marco?

00:34:31   That's not really me, that's an impersonator.

00:34:33   - No, it just, it kind of feels like I've been blessed

00:34:35   with this honor that I have to treat well.

00:34:37   I don't know, it's not rational, but that's how it feels.

00:34:40   - Well, for what it's worth, there's an account,

00:34:44   which is @verified, this is an account on Twitter,

00:34:48   that from what I can tell, follows every verified account.

00:34:52   And it follows 190,014 accounts, as we record.

00:34:56   One of those accounts, ladies and gentlemen, is this guy.

00:34:59   'Cause guess who got his blue check mark a couple days ago?

00:35:02   I did, and man, Jon, does it feel good.

00:35:05   Oh, I'm sorry.

00:35:06   Yeah, it's okay.

00:35:07   It's not bad.

00:35:08   - So the thing that burns me up so much

00:35:09   about your check mark is that you got it six hours

00:35:13   after filling out the application.

00:35:14   Like you fill out the application not too long before I did.

00:35:18   Like basically I didn't fill it out

00:35:19   because I was too busy podcasting with Merlin

00:35:21   while trying to fill it out,

00:35:22   which is why we ended up talking about it.

00:35:25   And so when the show was over, I filled it out.

00:35:27   You filled it out and you said what, six hours later?

00:35:29   You got your check mark?

00:35:30   Yeah, it was a little after noon on whatever day it was announced, and it was just before

00:35:36   I recorded the latest episode of Analog that I received it.

00:35:41   And so we actually talked—Mike and I talk about this on Analog as well.

00:35:44   But yeah, it was somewhere around six or seven hours.

00:35:48   It's like showing up to like some really popular event just after the whole crowd gets

00:35:52   there.

00:35:53   Like there's a line of five people, then you wait 15 minutes, then there's a line

00:35:55   of 3,000 people.

00:35:56   So now I'm somewhere back in a queue.

00:35:58   I just assume I'm going to get rejected because that would fit perfectly with the

00:36:01   completely arbitrary pattern of not giving Vatici one, rejecting Vatici and just never

00:36:07   responding to Brianna.

00:36:08   Like it fits perfectly with the whole notion that it's just like a hamster in a wheel

00:36:13   over there or some kind of random number generator and no actual human with any kind of judgment

00:36:18   is doing this.

00:36:19   Because honestly, if there was anybody with any kind of judgment doing this, like not

00:36:22   giving verified checkmarks immediately to every single target of Gamergate?

00:36:26   Like I don't understand the meeting where you'd be like, "Should we do anything about

00:36:30   this?

00:36:31   Should we give them a check?"

00:36:32   No, let's just not ever do it for like a year.

00:36:34   Does that sound good, guys?

00:36:36   Okay, good.

00:36:37   Let's break for lunch.

00:36:38   I don't understand the logic.

00:36:39   I don't even understand the neglect.

00:36:40   I don't understand.

00:36:41   And how can it be staffed to such a degree that Casey's wait time is six hours and that

00:36:47   they give him a thumbs up and yet all these other people don't get them?

00:36:51   It doesn't make sense to me.

00:36:53   It doesn't make sense.

00:36:54   We totally recognize that this entire topic and conversation is obnoxious and that I shouldn't

00:36:59   care.

00:37:00   But we do care because they made us care.

00:37:03   They manipulated us into caring with these blue check marks.

00:37:05   There are some legit reasons that a regular person would want this, like people who don't

00:37:10   need it like me.

00:37:11   Like I said, because you get more features that make Twitter nicer to use.

00:37:15   And I think your thing of the lock icon is great.

00:37:17   It's just like, I want my account to seem trustworthy and to people not to think it's

00:37:22   me.

00:37:23   had a few impersonators who I've reported and their accounts have gotten closed and

00:37:26   like whatever like it's not I don't have any any actual issues but it put it this way if

00:37:31   they literally opened it to everybody with 10 bucks I would pay 10 bucks in a second.

00:37:36   Oh yeah I mean like I registered the Overcast account for and I signed up or I filled out

00:37:41   the form roughly the same time you did I think John and I haven't heard back from that either

00:37:45   it's still pending but I did it for for basically that reason of like I wanted the Overcast

00:37:51   Twitter account to appear official, to really make it look like this is a real business

00:37:55   for a real app that matters in the world because it's good enough to get a blue checkmark.

00:38:00   I want people to see that. It helps look more professional.

00:38:04   I mean, we're going to do the same thing for the ATP account. @ATPFM on Twitter, I

00:38:09   want people to know that's the official account of the show, and so a checkmark would

00:38:11   be good to give them the reassurance that they're like, "What was the ATP one?"

00:38:14   Because it's not just @ATP because that's a different one, and you might not be sure.

00:38:18   And again, it's a thing I think should be open to everybody, as in if you have $10,

00:38:23   boom, you've got a checkmark.

00:38:25   Like a mechanical process with no humans involved, except for the verification part, and that's

00:38:29   what you're paying your $10 for.

00:38:30   But the idea of being rejected for verification doesn't make any sense to me.

00:38:34   Yeah.

00:38:35   Yeah, it is weird.

00:38:37   With that said, in my, what is this, like three or four days of living the sweet, sweet,

00:38:43   sweet blue checkmark lifestyle, I've only noticed two differences so far.

00:38:47   Did you get your gift bag? Yeah, did you see that special present they gave us? Oh yeah,

00:38:52   so good. That one was awesome. Anyway, so if I look at the Twitter website, in the settings area

00:39:01   on the left-hand side where it begins with accounts, security, and privacy, blah blah blah

00:39:05   blah blah blah blah. There's another one which I believe is new, that's notifications timeline.

00:39:11   And I don't recall having seen this before, and it says, "Filter tweets by..." and then

00:39:17   there's a checkbox, only one of them, that says "Quality Filter."

00:39:20   It says, "Quality filtering aims to remove all tweets from your notifications timeline

00:39:24   that contain threats, offensive or abusive language, duplicate content, or assent from

00:39:28   suspicious accounts."

00:39:30   I haven't yet turned that on, just because I don't feel like I really need to, and...

00:39:35   What kind of people might need that feature?

00:39:37   I'm having trouble thinking of any examples.

00:39:39   What?

00:39:40   Oh my god.

00:39:41   - Is this not available to everybody?

00:39:42   Yeah, 'cause I got the two accounts open here.

00:39:44   - Well, it might not be available to everybody

00:39:45   because like maybe there's a computational

00:39:47   or like scalability thing or whatever, but--

00:39:49   - Then too bad, fix that.

00:39:50   We have computers now.

00:39:52   Computers do these things quickly.

00:39:55   - I'm trying to think of a scenario where it's reasonable,

00:39:57   but even if you're gonna give it

00:39:58   to a limited set of people, who would you give it to?

00:40:01   Who might you give this thing that's limited?

00:40:02   Say you only have, you know, 500,000 to hand out.

00:40:06   Who would you give it to?

00:40:07   I don't know.

00:40:08   Maybe you would, like you said, divorce it from the verified

00:40:10   and just offer it to people who are constant targets of abuse.

00:40:12   Or no, maybe just not do that.

00:40:15   So yeah, so there's that.

00:40:17   And then it was actually Mike who got verified in a beautiful, wonderful turn of events,

00:40:23   got verified after we recorded Analog.

00:40:26   So I had an entire episode of Analog to lord over him and make fun of him for not being

00:40:30   as cool as I am, which was delightful.

00:40:33   But anyway, he had noticed once he got verified that apparently in the official app, there's

00:40:38   There's a notifications tab, and there's a new entry in the segmented control there.

00:40:45   So he sent me a screenshot, and what he had was all mentions, and I believe he said that

00:40:50   the verified one was new.

00:40:52   So he can look at notifications from everyone, notifications just in terms of mentions, again,

00:40:57   this is the official app, or I guess mentions just from verified people, or perhaps any

00:41:02   sort of notification that's sourced with a verified individual.

00:41:06   And those are the only two differences that I've noticed.

00:41:07   I don't know Marco if you've noticed anything else.

00:41:10   - Well, not really just because I don't use

00:41:13   the official client or the website very often.

00:41:15   - Same here.

00:41:16   - So most of the stuff only is visible in those places.

00:41:19   And honestly that might be like,

00:41:22   if I started getting a lot of abuse again,

00:41:24   there have been periods in the past

00:41:26   where I've gotten all here and there.

00:41:27   I mean nothing like what people like Brianna get.

00:41:29   It's not even close.

00:41:30   But if that kind of thing became a problem for me,

00:41:33   I would very much consider switching to these official apps.

00:41:36   And again, if you're going to make this

00:41:39   like a content filter kind of thing

00:41:41   and an abuse filter kind of thing,

00:41:43   you want as many people as possible

00:41:45   who are legitimate account holders to be verified.

00:41:48   And if you charge a bit of money to be verified,

00:41:50   it really does, it puts a big barrier in front of,

00:41:55   and not necessarily to the point where nobody can pay,

00:41:58   but not a lot of people will pay,

00:42:00   in order to make a bunch of dummy accounts

00:42:02   to troll people with or to harass people with.

00:42:04   but typically, when you pay for an account,

00:42:07   you are less likely to be willing to just throw it away

00:42:11   because you'll lose that money

00:42:12   and you'd have to pay again

00:42:13   if you wanted to come back to the service.

00:42:17   My old friend, the Something Awful Forum

00:42:18   is back from my early internet days.

00:42:21   They had a system there where you had to pay,

00:42:23   I believe it was 10 bucks to register an account

00:42:27   and it was incredibly effective

00:42:30   at keeping out spam and crap

00:42:32   And if anybody got banned, if you broke a rule,

00:42:36   you'd get banned, and you're out 10 bucks.

00:42:39   And if you wanna come back, you gotta pay another 10 bucks.

00:42:41   And it really did make a big difference

00:42:44   in how well that community was run,

00:42:46   and how little crap there really was there

00:42:48   compared to the number of people that were there.

00:42:50   - Yeah, that probably doesn't work for something

00:42:52   that's supposed to be as mass market as Twitter,

00:42:54   which is like, I think they'd have to come up

00:42:56   with a hybrid strategy where they would have to be like,

00:42:59   look, we will give out free checkmarks

00:43:01   everybody who we think deserves them and then we will actually hire or set a policy where

00:43:06   deserves make some sense to somebody in the entire universe and then anybody can get it

00:43:10   if they pay.

00:43:11   Like you need to hire because you don't want it to be like, "Oh."

00:43:14   So few people will pay.

00:43:15   You don't want it to be like only people with this amount of disposable income are

00:43:18   allowed to participate in Twitter because I think Twitter has already established itself

00:43:21   as sort of like everybody can be on Twitter.

00:43:23   It's open to everybody.

00:43:25   It's free.

00:43:27   Maybe that's not sustainable either but it's kind of a shame to take a service with that

00:43:31   broad of appeal, as opposed to something that's like a community like MetaFilter or those

00:43:35   forums you were talking about where it's not going to be everybody.

00:43:37   It's going to be a tiny subset, a very small community.

00:43:40   And even there it's kind of a shame to select only people who can afford to add that money.

00:43:44   But you're right that it is incredibly effective to raise inequality because no one wants to

00:43:51   keep paying money to make sock puppets because it just gets expensive and it doesn't feel

00:43:57   good.

00:43:58   I mean, I guess unfortunately, at the scale Twitter operates, I can imagine people running

00:44:04   Kickstarters to fund the creation of their sock puppet accounts.

00:44:06   Like in the alternate universe where Twitter was always a pay thing, they would just raise

00:44:10   tens of thousands of dollars from horrible people to constantly make it—anyway.

00:44:15   This is, like so many things Twitter does, this is in this weird state where it's not

00:44:19   clear what the new rules are.

00:44:21   It's not clear how long this will last.

00:44:23   As Marco said, who knows?

00:44:24   They could get rid of checkmarks tomorrow and split these features into two different

00:44:28   things, but at least it's some kind of motion on the front.

00:44:31   And by the way, speaking of the checkmark, I use a third-party client because I'm an

00:44:35   old Twitter user.

00:44:36   I'm always surprised when people use the official client, but apparently lots of actual people

00:44:40   do.

00:44:41   Anyway, in my third-party client it has an option for whether it should show the checkmark

00:44:46   overlaid on the little avatars for individual accounts, and I always have that turned off.

00:44:51   Because I didn't like, when I'm going through my timeline, I didn't like the sort of visual

00:44:57   indication that this person was more important and what they had to say was more important.

00:45:01   I mean, if I dig into the account, if I ever have questions about, "Is this really the

00:45:04   celebrity?" I tap on their name and I can see the checkmark. But seeing the checkmark,

00:45:08   mostly because I actually follow a lot of people who have checkmarks who I actually

00:45:11   know, I don't need to constantly be reminded that they all have checkmarks. And I felt

00:45:14   like it was making me pay less attention to the ones that don't have checkmarks, so

00:45:17   I just turned it off on all of them pretty quickly after that feature was available several

00:45:22   years ago. And I would definitely not want to turn it back on.

00:45:24   - Then you aren't seeing our bling.

00:45:27   - I know, believe me, I know.

00:45:30   Honestly, Marco, I thought you had had one for years.

00:45:33   I'd forgotten about that whole little blow up thing.

00:45:36   - Yeah, and the funny thing is right after I got mine,

00:45:38   Marco and I were talking privately

00:45:40   and we had concluded without a shadow of a doubt,

00:45:43   collectively, that there was zero chance

00:45:46   that you would solicit your own check mark

00:45:48   because you are above that.

00:45:49   And then fast forward like two hours

00:45:51   and you said in the relay slack,

00:45:53   "Oh, I totally asked them and I can't believe I haven't gotten them."

00:45:56   No, I thought you knew this, that we discussed before.

00:45:58   I wanted a checkmark forever.

00:46:00   Well, no, no, no. We knew that you wanted the checkmark.

00:46:02   That wasn't up for grabs.

00:46:03   Yeah, but we also thought that there would be no chance that you would, like, apply.

00:46:06   That I wouldn't apply? No, you have to. You have to apply.

00:46:08   Once they say it's open to everybody, you have to apply.

00:46:10   Like, I just choked down writing that stupid bio.

00:46:12   I'm like, "Ugh, I gotta do it."

00:46:14   Like, in the little box where they say, like, "Tell us why we should verify you,"

00:46:17   I wrote, like, the most craven, like, disgusting, "Here's why I'm an important person" thing.

00:46:23   Like, I'm just like, "This is the strongest argument I have. Here it is. No being coy,

00:46:29   no beating around the bush, this is it." Thank God that's not public.

00:46:32   What am I going to do? Be all shy and demure and say, "Well, probably you shouldn't give it to me,

00:46:39   I'm not that well known." No, I think I should have it. Maybe I should have taken a couple

00:46:43   sentences to say—I mean, I can't even be honest and say, "You should not be giving this to me

00:46:47   before you give it to every single person who's ever been targeted by Gamergate."

00:46:51   But if you start yelling at them and telling them what they should do, also not a good

00:46:54   way to get a checkmark.

00:46:55   So anyway, they're just not responding to my request anyway.

00:46:59   So it's been, what, three days now?

00:47:02   Whatever.

00:47:03   So on analog, on the episode of analog that will be out by the time this episode is out,

00:47:08   John, you're John, Mike and I discussed what we had written.

00:47:12   And it was funny because we took two different approaches on what we wrote to justify our

00:47:17   coolness.

00:47:18   And I agree with you.

00:47:20   I am not a fan of writing that sort of thing.

00:47:22   Oh, look at me, I'm just so important,

00:47:24   and let me tell you all the reasons why.

00:47:26   But what I ended up doing was basically name-dropping

00:47:29   people that I knew and interact with

00:47:32   that are also verified.

00:47:35   - That's not a power move, though.

00:47:37   - My brother-in-law met Barack Obama once.

00:47:38   - Sort of.

00:47:39   - Right, exactly.

00:47:40   I know Marco Armin.

00:47:41   - Well, that was the thing.

00:47:42   So, no, no, I mean, I'm serious.

00:47:44   That was the approach I took was,

00:47:45   hey, I share a podcast with verified user Marco Armin

00:47:48   and John Saracusa.

00:47:49   Well, the fact that he's verified that actually strengthens it.

00:47:54   Right, that's my point.

00:47:55   No, no, no, that was exactly my point.

00:47:57   And I talked about how I'm also on Relay, which also has Jason Snell verified and CGP

00:48:01   Cray verified.

00:48:02   And my podcasts are heard by many thousands of people each week.

00:48:05   That's a pretty good approach.

00:48:06   I mean, obviously it worked, but then again, with this black box, we have no idea why it

00:48:11   worked.

00:48:12   It could have been because the person who decided to check your box listens to ATP.

00:48:15   Boom, Casey List, done.

00:48:17   Yeah.

00:48:18   a different approach. Shoot, what did he say he did? I've forgotten now. But whatever it was...

00:48:21   I spelled my name with a Y, which is much cooler than an I.

00:48:24   Oh no, no, that's what it was. He had said, he thought to himself, "Well, why would they have

00:48:29   made this available to everyone?" It must be because they want people to verify their,

00:48:38   you know, their identity. And so Mike was all, "Oh, you know, I'm really concerned that people

00:48:42   that listen to me might not be able to find the real me," you know, in playing the whole,

00:48:46   like parody card. And I'm very poorly paraphrasing what he said. Go listen to that episode of

00:48:52   Analog. But we took two different approaches and, well, I gotta tell you, Mike Bling looks

00:48:56   great. How does he look, Marco?

00:48:58   But he got his too. Mike's approach worked too, right?

00:49:01   Yep.

00:49:02   I mean, Mike totally deserves one too. Like, I mean, it's no question, but like that's

00:49:04   an interesting approach. I mean, like I said, I have had actual impersonators using my avatar

00:49:09   and using variations on my name with different Unicode glyphs and stuff to make a thing like

00:49:13   that has happened to me. Not a lot, but it has happened. He ended up going with that

00:49:16   approach and it working good. Was it, did he have real examples or was it just speculative?

00:49:21   As in, like, I'm afraid this would happen to me one day.

00:49:23   I don't recall. I feel like it was speculative, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

00:49:28   Anyway, you have no idea how annoyed I'm going to be when I get rejected. Because then where

00:49:33   do I go from there? Do I just reapply every six months? Forever?

00:49:37   One month. Yeah, it's one month.

00:49:39   month? I can't... I did save the paragraph of text I wrote in the box just so I don't

00:49:44   have to think it up again, so I'll just paste it in every month. But like, what a lot...

00:49:47   what a distance that is. At a certain point I'm just gonna stop. I'm not gonna be able

00:49:49   to like, to muster the... it just... what is the quote from Jerry Maguire? Why in the

00:49:58   world am I asking you guys? Chat room with Jerry Maguire quote. You're gonna lick it

00:50:03   off now. Have you ever seen that movie? Yes, but forever ago. I actually did see it, but

00:50:08   But I saw it when it was new,

00:50:10   which was a very long time ago.

00:50:11   - All I know is I love looking at my bling

00:50:13   every time it flies by after I tweet.

00:50:15   Mm-mm-mm, looks good.

00:50:16   - For a while, I actually had trouble

00:50:19   recognizing myself on Twitter.

00:50:20   Like, if I'd double-click a tweet

00:50:22   to get the conversation history,

00:50:23   and mine would be at the root,

00:50:25   'cause I wanted to see which of my tweets

00:50:26   is in response to,

00:50:28   for the first few days, it didn't register visually as me

00:50:33   when I'd see the avatar with the checkmark on it,

00:50:34   'cause that's not how I look on Twitter.

00:50:37   - All right, here you go.

00:50:38   This is the scene that you guys don't remember, but you should because it's full of quotable

00:50:42   things.

00:50:43   Oh, you're not cutting my Jerry Maguire quote out.

00:50:44   This is gold.

00:50:45   I'm going to cut out like half this topic.

00:50:47   It's so long.

00:50:48   Well, we don't have much on the other end of it, so you know, we need to fill it here.

00:50:53   This is when Jerry's talking to whoever a kubu-ting junior was playing, like the athlete

00:50:57   that he represents.

00:50:58   He's a sports agent.

00:50:59   He said, "I'm out here for you.

00:51:00   You don't know what it's like to be me out here for you.

00:51:03   It's an up-at-dawn, pride-swallowing siege that I will never fully tell you about.

00:51:06   Oh, I blew it.

00:51:07   So close, so close!

00:51:09   Anyway, Up at Dawn, Pride-Swallowing Siege.

00:51:13   It's what I think of as a good description

00:51:15   of reapplying to get Twitter verified every month

00:51:19   because that is a hell of a pride-swallowing siege.

00:51:23   Oh, wow.

00:51:24   - Oh, Jon, I genuinely feel bad for you,

00:51:27   and I really want you to get verified.

00:51:29   - You shouldn't, no one should feel bad for me.

00:51:30   For the love of God, please, no one feel bad for you.

00:51:32   This is the most pathetic thing in the entire,

00:51:34   it's not actually important.

00:51:36   - No, it's not, but it is. - You should not feel bad

00:51:37   You should you should pity me that I care about this at all well

00:51:40   I do that too, but don't cry for John, Argentina

00:51:42   Exactly, you know something from pop culture. Are you quoting like the Madonna remake? No I saw that

00:51:48   Wait, which one we came out like in the 90s Madonna. That's the Madonna. Okay. That's the one I saw. Yeah, sorry

00:51:54   It's fine. At least I saw one of them. I mean come on. Yeah. Yeah. Well anyway

00:51:58   Well, I hope you get your checkmark in no small part because it'll make getting the ATP FM checkmark that much easier because we can

00:52:05   say, "Hey, all three of us."

00:52:06   - Well, it probably won't because apparently

00:52:08   the process is random and Vititi doesn't deserve one

00:52:10   and neither is anyone targeted by Gamergate.

00:52:12   - Well, I mean, this is part of the problem

00:52:14   with any of these human review,

00:52:16   it's just like the App Store where even if you set rules

00:52:20   in place and even if the rules don't change,

00:52:22   which I think for Twitter's verification process

00:52:25   those are two big requirements that probably

00:52:27   have never been met before, but assuming you have

00:52:29   codified rules that don't change much over time,

00:52:34   you still have a team of humans enforcing them.

00:52:36   And like, you know, when Viteaches went through,

00:52:39   it could, it was right after this big rush started,

00:52:42   it could have been a bunch of people

00:52:43   who saw this giant pile behind them

00:52:45   and it was right before lunch

00:52:46   and they were tired and they were grumpy

00:52:48   and they just started saying no, no, no, no to it.

00:52:50   Like, it could be so many things

00:52:52   once you have like humans trying to review

00:52:55   a whole bunch of stuff subjectively.

00:52:57   It's just, these kind of rule systems

00:53:00   will never be consistently enforced

00:53:02   as long as there is that subjective component to it.

00:53:05   That's why they should remove that,

00:53:06   and it should just be like,

00:53:08   do you fit the basic qualifications?

00:53:09   Can you prove your identity with a government issued ID

00:53:12   that we trust, and can you maybe pay a few bucks

00:53:16   for our time since we're gonna do this for a lot of people?

00:53:19   That's it, that should be all it is.

00:53:21   And as soon as you put in judgment calls of,

00:53:24   well, are you important enough?

00:53:26   It's never gonna be consistently enforced.

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00:54:38   - So Marco, we're doing pretty well.

00:54:44   We're about an hour in and we still have one more topic left

00:54:48   and I think we might be able to dodge stupid Tivo

00:54:50   for one more week.

00:54:51   So we gotta stretch this one a lot.

00:54:53   - All right, we'll see what we can do.

00:54:54   - So tell me everything that I could ever possibly

00:54:57   want to know about serial number tracking in forecast.

00:55:01   - Okay, now that you've ruined both product names

00:55:03   of the things I was gonna make.

00:55:04   (laughing)

00:55:06   - Wait, was that not, wait.

00:55:08   - If he was looking in the show notes,

00:55:09   you would know it was called that.

00:55:10   - I know.

00:55:11   - What was the other name?

00:55:12   - Side track. - The audio alignment?

00:55:13   - Yeah.

00:55:14   - He didn't say that, you did, didn't you?

00:55:16   - No, but it's in the show notes and I missed it.

00:55:18   It's fine, it doesn't matter.

00:55:19   - Oh, crap, I'm sorry.

00:55:21   - Don't worry about it.

00:55:21   - Have you not announced forecast?

00:55:23   - I think I kind of mentioned it here and there.

00:55:25   It's also, it's in the ID3 tags of every MP3 I've made

00:55:28   in the last two months.

00:55:29   So it's just sitting right there.

00:55:32   People have asked me on Twitter like,

00:55:33   "Hey, what's this forecast thing?"

00:55:35   So yeah, they figured it out.

00:55:36   - Oh God, I feel like such a turd.

00:55:37   Oh, I'm sorry.

00:55:38   Do we wanna rerecord that?

00:55:39   We can rerecord.

00:55:40   - No, it's fine.

00:55:41   - No, no, no, now you have to explain

00:55:42   the goofy origins of the name

00:55:43   in typical Marco naming fashion.

00:55:46   - I am excellent at naming things.

00:55:48   I don't know what you're talking about.

00:55:50   - Actually, this is perfect

00:55:51   'cause this will delay TiVo even more.

00:55:52   So please tell me the name about this thing

00:55:54   that I just spilled the beans on?

00:55:56   - Sure, so Forecast is my podcast post-production app

00:56:00   for the Mac.

00:56:01   It basically is an MP3 encoder,

00:56:04   as well as a chapter and metadata editor.

00:56:07   So it allows you to input any audio file,

00:56:11   WAV, AIF, other MP3s, whatever else,

00:56:15   and just edit the metadata on it.

00:56:17   It encodes its MP3 if it isn't an MP3 already.

00:56:19   It uses my parallel version of the lame MP3 encoder,

00:56:22   like I discussed a few episodes back.

00:56:25   I did succeed in making that.

00:56:26   It does work.

00:56:27   The last few episodes of this show have been encoded with it

00:56:29   and nobody noticed, so that's good.

00:56:31   And it also can do things like edit chapters.

00:56:33   And you might have noticed in recent shows

00:56:34   that not only have I been using chapters more

00:56:37   in the encode here,

00:56:39   but also that we've recently gotten,

00:56:42   here and there I've been throwing in some chapter images

00:56:45   where you have a special image showing up at certain times

00:56:48   in certain shows that's topically relevant.

00:56:51   And this is all being done by this app, Forecast.

00:56:54   And the reason I named it Forecast

00:56:55   is because it's what comes before Overcast.

00:56:57   Come on.

00:56:58   I mean--

00:56:59   Oh, no, you got the three things.

00:57:00   So it's the connection to the weather.

00:57:02   So Overcast and Forecast, you forecast the weather.

00:57:04   But you've also-- and then what was the one you just said?

00:57:07   You do it before it appears in Overcast.

00:57:10   And also, this application takes files

00:57:12   and prepares them for Overcast.

00:57:16   Yep.

00:57:17   And Overcast ends in Cast, which is

00:57:20   is because it's about podcasts.

00:57:21   So it's all these different, you know,

00:57:23   all these references and this name forecast, so.

00:57:26   - And also you are the famous creator

00:57:27   of the podcast application Instacast,

00:57:29   as far as I'm concerned, is that right?

00:57:31   - Yeah, that's, you know, people,

00:57:37   for a while I thought I kind of owned

00:57:39   like the Insta prefix with Instapaper,

00:57:42   and then Instagram came out and the game was over,

00:57:44   because now like everybody just thinks

00:57:46   anything Insta, people think Instagram.

00:57:49   So even if I tried to, and Instacast was a different

00:57:52   podcast app by a different person,

00:57:55   but even if that never existed,

00:57:56   even if I tried to launch a new podcast app

00:57:59   called Instacast, people would think I was ripping off

00:58:02   Instagram's name, not playing off my own name

00:58:05   of my own product from 10 years ago.

00:58:07   So anyway, so my app is called Forecast,

00:58:12   and it's a Mac app, although as far as I know,

00:58:15   there's nothing really about it that would make it,

00:58:17   that would preclude an iOS version in the future if I really thought that it was warranted.

00:58:21   But there's not a whole lot of podcast production happening on iOS these days. So the demand

00:58:26   is mostly on the computer side and probably mostly on the Mac side, if I had to guess,

00:58:30   between Mac and PC. So that's what I'm doing. It's a small project. It's not like a massive

00:58:37   thing. I've been working on it for a few weeks. It's in beta now, a very small private beta,

00:58:42   And I haven't really decided how and when to release it and charge for it.

00:58:49   And I talked a little bit about this on Under the Radar two weeks ago, so we'll link to

00:58:52   that.

00:58:54   Just basically considerations of whether you should even charge money for something like

00:58:58   this or whether it's not even worth the hassle of charging money.

00:59:03   Because charging money brings a certain degree of overhead and of support burden and things

00:59:08   like that.

00:59:09   If it's only gonna make a small amount of money overall

00:59:12   because of small volume of sales,

00:59:15   it's kind of questionable whether that's even worth doing.

00:59:19   The entire run of Bugshot,

00:59:21   when I was charging for it and when I still owned Bugshot,

00:59:27   the entire run of it made something like $3,000.

00:59:30   And $3,000 is a lot of money to a lot of people,

00:59:32   and it was for me at the time as well.

00:59:33   However, it also took a pretty big portion of my summer

00:59:38   to do that and there was an opportunity cost there

00:59:40   like I probably should have been working on Overcast

00:59:43   at the time and instead I made Bugshot

00:59:45   and to have made a relatively small amount of money

00:59:49   over like a year worth of sales,

00:59:52   it probably wasn't worth it in retrospect

00:59:55   and that's why I eventually just decided

00:59:56   to just make it free and just learn from it,

00:59:59   whatever I could learn from having a free app in the store.

01:00:02   So with Forecast, I'm kind of faced with a similar

01:00:05   conclusion or a similar dilemma here

01:00:08   of do I charge for it or not?

01:00:10   And I talked actually a little bit about this last week

01:00:12   when we talked about Sidetrack, my alignment utility

01:00:15   that also exists, although forecast is way more

01:00:18   in a releasable state because it's just a simpler problem.

01:00:21   But anyway, I don't really know

01:00:23   whether I'm going to charge for it or not.

01:00:25   If I'm going to charge for it,

01:00:27   it would probably be like 50 bucks

01:00:29   because anything less than that,

01:00:31   I don't think it would be worth it,

01:00:32   but the problem is like how many people

01:00:34   are gonna pay for a podcast chapter utility.

01:00:37   Now there is a podcast chapter utility

01:00:40   already in the Mac App Store today.

01:00:42   I believe it's called podcast chapters.

01:00:44   It's 20 bucks and as far as I can tell,

01:00:47   it doesn't look at selling in meaningful volume,

01:00:50   which is too bad because I think this is a market

01:00:52   that should be a strong market.

01:00:54   With me going in there saying,

01:00:56   I wanna be able to charge 50 bucks for this,

01:00:58   it's not very promising that there's already one for 20

01:01:01   that appears not to be selling very well.

01:01:03   So I think you gotta figure like,

01:01:05   yeah, I could push it, I could use my brand

01:01:07   and my blue check mark to really sell this thing,

01:01:09   and like, but how many copies am I really gonna sell?

01:01:12   How many people are really making chapterized podcasts

01:01:15   and are willing to pay 50 bucks

01:01:16   for my version of solving this problem?

01:01:19   That number is probably something like 100 people at most,

01:01:23   in the most optimistic projection, 100 people,

01:01:26   probably more like 20 to 30 people,

01:01:30   if I'm really being honest.

01:01:31   it's probably a very small number of people

01:01:34   who actually would buy this thing.

01:01:35   So because it's so small, I'm leaning mostly towards

01:01:40   not even charging money for it,

01:01:43   because it just seems like the overhead of charging money

01:01:47   would not really be worth setting all that up.

01:01:51   That being said, I also have an app called Quitter,

01:01:54   which we plugged poorly last episode.

01:01:57   I also have a Mac app called Quitter,

01:01:59   and it would kind of be an interesting learning experience

01:02:02   to figure out how to charge money for Mac apps

01:02:05   to set up the infrastructure to charge money for Mac apps.

01:02:07   This is all outside the App Store

01:02:09   because the Mac App Store does not really offer anything,

01:02:14   it doesn't offer enough to make it worth the 30% anymore

01:02:18   if it ever did.

01:02:19   Anyway, so big question is do I release this thing

01:02:22   and then do I charge for it

01:02:23   and then if I charge for it, how do I charge for it?

01:02:26   And then the follow-up topic to this,

01:02:28   which is how do I do license management

01:02:31   and piracy prevention, or rather, piracy reduction,

01:02:35   I guess I should say, 'cause I'm a realist here.

01:02:37   I know how these things work.

01:02:39   So what do you think, what should I do here?

01:02:41   - If you weren't gonna charge for it,

01:02:43   which you're slowly convincing me.

01:02:45   Before I was like, you should just charge

01:02:46   a huge amount of money for it

01:02:47   'cause five people are gonna buy it.

01:02:49   And unfortunately, you're gonna get free copies

01:02:51   of those five people, so really you're gonna sell zero.

01:02:53   But now as you talk about it more,

01:02:55   I'm like, well, if it's gonna be free,

01:02:56   I start to think that not only should it be free, it should be open source.

01:03:00   Because when some annoying corner case of the spec comes out, there's enough nerdy people

01:03:04   that they'll just send you a pull request and why not get the benefits of it being free?

01:03:11   You're not going to get any of the benefits of making any money if you're going to make

01:03:14   it free.

01:03:15   Why not go all the way in the other direction and say, "Not only is this free, this is open

01:03:18   source."

01:03:19   And then also, if you get tired of maintaining it, some other person who's more enthusiastic

01:03:24   about maintaining it could take it over because you just want this tool to exist, which is

01:03:27   why you're making it.

01:03:28   Like you're scratching your own itch here.

01:03:29   Sure.

01:03:30   It's not as if this is your grand plan for world domination, right?

01:03:32   I think you would be fine if someone took it over and kept up with all these, you know,

01:03:37   whenever you get a report like, "Oh, I tried to use your tool and it didn't work on this

01:03:40   particular weird thing encoded with this," like you don't want to deal with that crap.

01:03:44   So I would say free and open source is a good option or closed source and charge a huge

01:03:51   amount of money as a deterrent to keep away the look you lose.

01:03:59   Yeah and then see how it works out.

01:04:01   And if you really do want to figure out like how can people send me money for a Mac application,

01:04:07   like maybe as people were saying in the chat room, maybe make it like a tip jar type of

01:04:11   thing where it's not even like patronage.

01:04:14   It's not even like you're promising that anyone that you're even going to like put that money

01:04:17   into further development of this application.

01:04:19   just like, look, this is free.

01:04:22   If you like it and you wanna say thank you,

01:04:24   put a dollar in this jar, you get nothing for this dollar.

01:04:27   Like it doesn't even guarantee that I'm ever gonna make

01:04:29   another version of this application,

01:04:30   but if you just wanna be a nice person, do that.

01:04:33   And I think that could make as much money

01:04:35   as the one where you charge five people 50 bucks.

01:04:39   - It might, well okay, so let me address these two

01:04:41   separately, 'cause these are two big topics I think.

01:04:43   So first, the open source question.

01:04:46   That is a very, very good question,

01:04:47   and it's an interesting theory of, you know,

01:04:49   should this just be open source?

01:04:50   And I've thought about that for this and Sidetrack.

01:04:53   What I found though, you know,

01:04:54   in just being a person using computers for a while,

01:04:57   and a little bit of direct developer experience,

01:05:00   but mostly just being a user of this stuff,

01:05:02   what I found is that there tends to be

01:05:05   not that much value to entirely open sourced applications,

01:05:10   especially for fairly narrow uses like this.

01:05:13   There is lots of value in open source components

01:05:15   and utility libraries and stuff like that.

01:05:17   There's lots of value there,

01:05:19   but the value of open sourcing the entire app here

01:05:23   is not incredibly great unless there's going to be

01:05:26   a lot of contributors working on it.

01:05:29   And for most apps, that simply doesn't happen.

01:05:31   For most apps, getting a lot of contributors

01:05:34   is like this fantasy that you have

01:05:36   when you think about open sourcing it,

01:05:37   but then if you actually do open source it,

01:05:39   almost nobody contributes,

01:05:41   and you get a handful of pull requests here and there,

01:05:43   and then it just works.

01:05:44   then it's just like, it's like going through resumes,

01:05:46   but people put all this work into it,

01:05:47   and then you have to like, you know,

01:05:49   the ones you want to accept, you gotta like,

01:05:51   you know, make sure they work, you gotta test them

01:05:53   with all of Casey's unit tests, and all this crazy stuff,

01:05:56   and then, and even the ones that work that you wanna add,

01:06:00   it might not have really been in the way

01:06:01   that you would have wanted to do it,

01:06:03   or the code might be messy.

01:06:05   - You gotta let go, when it's open source,

01:06:06   you gotta let go of the thing, and like,

01:06:09   and I think you don't want a whole bunch

01:06:10   of a contributor or something,

01:06:11   I think you just want like two smart people

01:06:12   contributing to it, and that's it.

01:06:14   And all it does is relieve the maintenance burden for you

01:06:17   with the idea that eventually you'll be bored with it

01:06:19   and someone else will just take it over

01:06:21   and then you'll be sending them five line pull requests.

01:06:24   - Yeah, but I think in reality,

01:06:26   again, that's a great theory.

01:06:28   In reality, that doesn't happen very often.

01:06:30   And also, so when you open source things,

01:06:34   especially a full app like this,

01:06:35   you have the problem of you're generating work for yourself

01:06:39   because you're gonna have to deal with the contributions

01:06:42   and the reports from people and the pull request.

01:06:45   - You don't have to deal with the contribution.

01:06:47   You can just ignore it.

01:06:48   Eventually people will fork it and like,

01:06:50   that's the only-- - Yeah, but then you're a jerk.

01:06:51   - No, it's not.

01:06:52   I feel like that's every open source thing I've ever done

01:06:54   that's been like, look, here it is.

01:06:56   Maybe if I feel like it, I'll look at your pull request,

01:06:58   but if not, 'cause if people are annoyed

01:06:59   that you're not taking the pull request,

01:07:00   they'll just fork it and then they've taken it.

01:07:02   That's the only way you get people to take it over

01:07:04   is you just neglect it and then someone else takes it over

01:07:06   and you're like, oh, good, done.

01:07:10   I'm thinking of it as totally not feeling any social responsibility because this is

01:07:16   a very obscure thing.

01:07:18   It is not a mass market thing.

01:07:20   It's super obscure and it's just kind of your way of having… it's like buying a lottery

01:07:26   ticket for removing a small amount of maintenance from your future, but it really is totally

01:07:30   giving up ownership of it.

01:07:31   So forget about picking a cool name for it and having any ownership or any stake in it

01:07:35   or whatever.

01:07:36   It's just completely open source.

01:07:37   to the far extreme of these possibilities,

01:07:41   which you have never done anything like this,

01:07:43   and the only reason I'm suggesting it in this case

01:07:45   is because this seems like the only time

01:07:48   I would ever recommend it,

01:07:49   because it's so clearly not a thing

01:07:53   that has any potential upside that is significant.

01:07:57   - Yeah, I agree with Jon.

01:07:58   Unless you're gonna be charging an absurd amount of money,

01:08:01   which I think in principle you could,

01:08:04   because the kind of people that would use this

01:08:06   probably the kind of people that make a decent amount of money making these shows.

01:08:10   Mmm, that's not necessarily true. It's not necessarily true, but it's certainly

01:08:14   possible. But regardless of that, I think Jon has convinced me, listening to him, that

01:08:21   open sourcing it is probably the best way to go, because the key to open sourcing it

01:08:25   is that you can point at that GitHub repo and just say, "Yep, shrug. It's up to you,

01:08:31   I did my part now. It's up to you and

01:08:33   And then if somebody complains to you that something isn't working you can you are completely absolved of any guilt because it is within

01:08:41   Their power in principle to fix that that's a wonderful theory. That doesn't work in practice

01:08:47   Like it's just it's just a change in attitude. You just say like like I'm not offering you support for this

01:08:54   This is not a product. You didn't pay me anymore

01:08:56   Like if anyone actually complained be like you're getting what you paid for

01:08:59   I'll refund all zero dollars of your money. Like don't even respond to the emails

01:09:03   Don't even look at the things like I'm good at that tons of tons

01:09:05   Those are stuffers like that and I don't think anyone can get mad about it's like plop here it is

01:09:11   And you can continue to edit your thing or like like there is no obligation

01:09:15   I feel and this is you know

01:09:17   This is a topic of some controversy in the open source world people like once you have it open source

01:09:21   You have to like maintain it and deal with progress

01:09:23   No

01:09:23   You don't that my I'm totally of the opinion if you just want to plop a bunch of code down and be like here it is

01:09:28   and never communicate with anyone in the entire world about it ever again.

01:09:32   Just put it under a license.

01:09:33   It's like, "You want it?

01:09:34   Here you go.

01:09:35   Fork it.

01:09:36   Do whatever the hell you want.

01:09:37   You and your friends do whatever you want.

01:09:38   If you don't have the ability to change it, oh well.

01:09:42   Sucks to be you."

01:09:43   But whatever.

01:09:44   I'm a programmer.

01:09:45   I wrote this for my own purposes.

01:09:46   And as a nice aside, I'm going to chuck it out there so other people can mess with it

01:09:49   if they want.

01:09:50   If I'm in the mood and someone sends me a progress, maybe I'll incorporate it, but no

01:09:53   promises.

01:09:54   Maybe I'll never look at it again, which I understand that doesn't feel good to a lot

01:09:57   of people, but to me that feels like one of the beautiful things about open source.

01:10:05   It's kind of like, rather than keeping it to yourself, say we take selling it to other

01:10:12   people off the table, which I don't think it should be off the table, but anyway, say

01:10:15   the alternative was "I wrote this out for myself and I used it myself," and this is

01:10:19   the alternative, don't hide it.

01:10:21   It's like taking all your belongings with you when you die.

01:10:24   As soon as I die, I'd burn every one of the Van Gogh paintings I own because I don't want

01:10:28   anyone else to ever have them.

01:10:29   It's like, I made this thing for myself, but also I want to share it with the world, so

01:10:35   if you want it, here it is.

01:10:37   It is what it is.

01:10:40   Go nuts with it.

01:10:41   And them having it doesn't affect you because it's software.

01:10:43   Like, you can both have it at the same time.

01:10:46   And you can both do whatever you want with it.

01:10:49   Develop it, not develop it, whatever.

01:10:53   And the final thing is, it has all the benefits of being free, because if we look at the iTunes

01:10:57   podcast directory, there are a huge number of podcasts.

01:11:01   If you made a free tool like this, Word would get around among the tons and tons of sort

01:11:05   of like, you know, whatever the bell curve looks like for podcasts in terms of traffic

01:11:10   numbers, the long tail of podcasts that are out there.

01:11:13   There are a lot of podcasts, and I bet a few of them, if they needed a tool that did this,

01:11:18   and Word got out, they're like, "Oh, if you need a tool that does this, the easiest one

01:11:21   is this free Mac app. Click on this thing, download the thing, and use it. Whatever.

01:11:26   You're helping a lot of people do their podcast production, and if those people come looking

01:11:31   for like, "Oh, I found a bug in this program," or whatever, you don't have to respond to

01:11:34   them either because they got a free application off a GitHub page. Maybe they won't even

01:11:38   be downloading it from your page. They'd be downloading it from the seventh or eighth

01:11:41   person who forked it. Who knows?

01:11:43   Well, okay. Those are all reasonable concerns and reasonable points, but I don't think

01:11:48   I'm ready to give up that kind of control.

01:11:50   - I know, I know, I totally know from your personality

01:11:53   you don't wanna do this, but I'm just saying.

01:11:54   - Right, and by open sourcing it,

01:11:56   you close a lot of doors for yourself in the future.

01:11:59   Like, I mean, yes, you open some,

01:12:00   thank you, Richard Stallman,

01:12:02   but you close a lot of doors for yourself of like,

01:12:05   what if I wanted to start charging for it

01:12:06   in the next version, or even just take this version

01:12:10   and start charging for it.

01:12:11   There are a lot of opportunities

01:12:12   that you basically close off by doing that.

01:12:15   Also, open source has a number of problems

01:12:19   in today's world, and I don't know if this was always the case, but it certainly seems

01:12:23   like today this is a big problem, where any kind of open source app now in the world of

01:12:29   app stores will have lots of opportunistic vultures and scammers basically just taking

01:12:36   it, changing the name maybe if you're lucky, and putting it on the app store for money

01:12:40   and trying to make money off of it. This happens to all sorts of open source applications now.

01:12:45   It happens a lot.

01:12:46   - App Review would never allow that.

01:12:48   - Yeah, right, that's hilarious.

01:12:51   - Put a little icon of Mario on it.

01:12:54   - Exactly.

01:12:54   - And call it Minecraft 2.0,

01:12:56   and I'm sure that will go right through App Review.

01:12:59   - Exactly, and so basically, there's a lot of problems

01:13:03   with entire open source applications, that's one of them.

01:13:07   And so, yeah, I mean, I don't think I'll open source it.

01:13:11   If I ever decided that I was done working on it

01:13:14   that it was going to be unmaintained,

01:13:16   maybe then I would open source it,

01:13:17   that that would be kind of the classy move to do

01:13:19   if there were no obvious problems by doing that.

01:13:21   But that's, I think I'd keep a closed source

01:13:25   until I figure out what to do with it.

01:13:27   That being said, again, do I really charge for it or not?

01:13:33   I don't know, I mean, ultimately,

01:13:36   the world is better off if it's free,

01:13:38   but I have a hard time justifying working on it if it's free

01:13:42   So I have to kind of balance that like, you know,

01:13:44   is it really, like, 'cause every day I spend working

01:13:47   on this, I'm not improving Overcast.

01:13:50   And I still need to do that too.

01:13:52   And you know, I need to like, this needs to be a project

01:13:56   that I only work on in short bursts so that I can get back

01:13:58   to working on Overcast, which is still providing

01:14:00   the bulk of my software income.

01:14:03   So you know, it's, I don't know, it's a tough balance.

01:14:06   I would love to be in a position where I could start

01:14:08   making real money from podcasting tools,

01:14:11   and have that start being an important enough part

01:14:14   of my business that I could spend more time working on it.

01:14:16   But I think as many people have found

01:14:18   when they try to get into this business,

01:14:20   it's just very hard to make money off of podcasting tools

01:14:22   because even though podcasting is really doing very well

01:14:25   right now, the number of podcast producers

01:14:28   is still fairly small relative to things like blogging

01:14:30   and stuff like that.

01:14:32   It's still a pretty small number producing podcasts.

01:14:35   And of the ones who produce podcasts,

01:14:37   there are so many different ways to produce them,

01:14:39   so many different tools people prefer to use

01:14:41   can afford to use or need to use in various conditions

01:14:44   that they're working in, that even if you make a tool,

01:14:48   the percentage of the market that will actually choose

01:14:53   to use that tool, especially if it's charged money for,

01:14:57   you're talking about very small numbers of people.

01:15:00   And if you raise the price high enough

01:15:04   to make it worth your time to develop it,

01:15:06   those people wouldn't be able to afford it anymore.

01:15:08   So it's a very hard market to really make money in

01:15:13   directly through direct sales.

01:15:15   Now of course there are other strategies I could use here.

01:15:18   I could give away a whole bunch of great production tools

01:15:20   for free that are all optimized for how Overcast works.

01:15:24   And so this would put me in a position to do things like

01:15:26   add new metadata formats that Overcast could debut

01:15:30   being the first app to read them.

01:15:32   And that would also piss off a lot of people,

01:15:33   but that's an option I could do.

01:15:36   I could just have this thing be something that, you know,

01:15:40   pushes the MP3 chapter format because I love MP3 chapters,

01:15:44   I hate M4A chapters, that's a terrible format.

01:15:47   And this would help push it towards MP3,

01:15:49   which Overcast deals better with,

01:15:51   which everybody deals better with,

01:15:52   it's a much easier format.

01:15:54   It's actually documented, that's a big one right there.

01:15:57   Thanks Apple for never documenting

01:15:58   the original AAC-enhanced format.

01:16:02   Anyway, there's lots of options I have here.

01:16:04   I don't know how interesting this is for all the listeners,

01:16:06   so I guess I can move on from that portion

01:16:08   of whether I charge for it,

01:16:11   and then we can move on to discussing piracy, fun,

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01:17:47   So based on what we know about you and how you don't want to do this open source and

01:17:54   you don't want to get away for free or whatever, but also what you said about the maximum addressable

01:17:59   market for this application being relatively small.

01:18:02   It's making me lean pretty heavily towards the idea

01:18:04   that you do not spend much time trying to prevent piracy.

01:18:07   Because everybody's been discussing

01:18:09   in Slack over the past weeks and has been discussed many times

01:18:12   on the web, especially in the old days,

01:18:13   back before the days of shareware and everything.

01:18:17   You can invest essentially infinite time

01:18:19   in trying to stop piracy.

01:18:20   You will always lose.

01:18:21   It's almost impossible to stop unless you're really

01:18:25   bad to your legitimate users.

01:18:27   And for what?

01:18:28   to get two extra users out of an addressable market of 100.

01:18:32   It's just not worth it.

01:18:33   So not only should you not spend lots of your time

01:18:36   on an application that you know is not gonna make

01:18:37   tons of money, but of the time that you spend,

01:18:41   all that time should be on the actual application.

01:18:44   Very little of it should be on the part

01:18:47   that prevents piracy.

01:18:48   You wanna prevent super casual piracy,

01:18:50   so do basically the simplest thing that will possibly work,

01:18:53   and I would say that's it.

01:18:56   And then just like, you know, you don't want to do nothing because it's so easy to just

01:19:00   do something and that helps.

01:19:02   But and especially if like, as you mentioned, the ambition to be like, this could be a stepping

01:19:06   stone to like, you know, a suite of podcasting tools or an integrated podcast production

01:19:11   application.

01:19:12   Like you have to build your way up to an app like that.

01:19:13   It's very difficult for a single developer with other applications to do that.

01:19:17   Like, but if you are going to build your way up to it, you'd want to build it on a ladder

01:19:21   of small applications that make money and that you learn things from.

01:19:24   that once you do Marco's minimal casual piracy prevention kit, you just reuse that in all

01:19:30   the other apps you do.

01:19:31   And then, you know, it's an infrastructure win.

01:19:35   Like, you do it once, do it to your satisfaction, don't worry about it again, and then try not

01:19:41   to.

01:19:42   Because as programmers, it's fun to get sucked into like, "Oh, I can battle these hackers,

01:19:45   and what if I do this clever thing and that?"

01:19:47   And you're gonna lose, and it's just a rat hole, and no one gives you money for thwarting

01:19:52   hackers.

01:19:53   no one gives you money.

01:19:54   It's the old thing of how many of those people

01:19:56   would have paid if you prevented it.

01:19:58   Do enough to keep the people with a conscience

01:20:02   vaguely honest and then call it a day.

01:20:04   - Yeah, that's basically my thought here too,

01:20:07   which is if I charge for this,

01:20:09   which again, I'm really leaning mostly towards

01:20:13   keeping it closed source but probably releasing it for free.

01:20:15   But if I do charge for it, ultimately I agree

01:20:18   because I grew up as a PC user

01:20:22   in the late 90s, pirating tons of crap as a stupid teenager.

01:20:26   I know how these things work,

01:20:28   and it's been a while since I've been in that scene,

01:20:30   but I'm pretty sure it basically works the same way now

01:20:33   as it always has.

01:20:34   The easiest case scenario is you share a key,

01:20:37   and even if you start doing key checks,

01:20:39   well then you just hack the binary to bypass the check.

01:20:42   And no matter how obscure,

01:20:43   and you can obfuscate the check,

01:20:45   you can put multiple checks all over the code,

01:20:47   there's all sorts of strategies and techniques you can do,

01:20:50   And ultimately, none of them really work for very long.

01:20:53   And you can look at the gaming market,

01:20:55   the PC gaming market, for all their wonderful tricks

01:20:57   they've tried to do over the years,

01:20:59   and most of which get cracked fairly quickly.

01:21:02   Granted, a big reason those get cracked

01:21:05   is because there's a lot of people

01:21:06   who want them to be cracked.

01:21:07   And if for a very narrow tool like this,

01:21:11   if there's only gonna be like 100 possible customers,

01:21:14   it's very likely that none of those 100 people

01:21:16   are actually professional crackers.

01:21:18   But the reality is that I agree that it's not really

01:21:23   worth spending a lot of time on.

01:21:24   It is worth spending some time on

01:21:26   because a little goes a long way.

01:21:28   If you put in a system where like,

01:21:32   all right, I just bought it and I wanna give it to Casey

01:21:35   and I just, do I email him a copy of my key

01:21:38   and he just enters it and it works?

01:21:40   And then what if he wants to give it to a friend?

01:21:41   Does he just pass along my key too?

01:21:43   Like how does all these things work?

01:21:45   Or in the case where none of us have bought it,

01:21:48   Does he go on whatever the BitTorrent tracker of the month is

01:21:52   and try to download it from there

01:21:54   or download a crack from some big database or something?

01:21:56   I don't know.

01:21:57   It's been a long time since I tried to pirate anything,

01:22:00   or at least anything that wasn't a TV show,

01:22:02   but I assume that's how these things still work,

01:22:05   and you're never gonna win against that.

01:22:06   And so, yeah, it isn't worth a lot of effort.

01:22:09   I am, of course, not naive enough to assume

01:22:14   that every pirated copy is a lost sale

01:22:17   and that if I make it impossible to pirate

01:22:19   on the craziest something that I can,

01:22:22   that I will somehow get all those sales again.

01:22:24   I know that's not how the world works,

01:22:26   but I would build something.

01:22:28   I could do some kind of cryptographic key,

01:22:31   that's pretty easy.

01:22:31   I have a public/private key thing already set up

01:22:33   so I can verify that my server generated a certain string

01:22:37   with a signature and everything,

01:22:38   but this all really seems like

01:22:40   it's probably not necessary at all

01:22:41   because it's probably not worth charging for,

01:22:43   at least for a while.

01:22:44   And maybe someday if I have,

01:22:47   A few years down the road, if I have a suite of tools

01:22:50   that I can release together as one suite,

01:22:52   and maybe charge 50 or 100 bucks for that,

01:22:56   maybe that becomes more compelling,

01:22:57   and maybe I charge then,

01:22:59   but I just don't see charging for this now

01:23:02   in a way that would be really worth the trouble,

01:23:05   because I think at most, I might make a couple thousand

01:23:10   dollars over the course of a year,

01:23:12   and I know that sounds like a lot of money to some people,

01:23:15   But if I have to have this entire support system in place to make that, it's probably

01:23:21   not worth it.

01:23:22   You know, as I'm thinking about it and listening to you talk, the only reason I can see not

01:23:31   to open source it on the assumption that it's free, which is what it sounds like you're

01:23:35   kind of backing your way into, the only reason I can see not to open source it is if you

01:23:39   wanted to eventually sell it down the road.

01:23:42   that's a weak argument to begin with but if you make it free there's still a

01:23:48   support burden it may not be quite as obnoxious as a paid app but you still

01:23:54   have a support burden whereas if you open source it it should absolve you of

01:23:58   any support burden I guarantee you it doesn't I guarantee it well but that's

01:24:02   all in you right I think the free it's a free one absolves you of support too

01:24:06   because if it's free like I don't think the open source gets rid of support like

01:24:09   Like, what the open source does is, I was just saying, like, if people do send you patches,

01:24:13   you don't have to accept those.

01:24:14   But if you give a free app, too, there's no support button there.

01:24:18   It's like, it's a free app.

01:24:19   Like, this is what I'm using right now.

01:24:21   I happen to put a link up on my website.

01:24:22   You feel free to download it and use it, but you get nothing from me.

01:24:25   I don't owe you anything.

01:24:26   Again, I will refund your entire zero dollars that you paid for it.

01:24:29   Well, but when, if it's open source, then you can say, "Well, go fix it yourself," which

01:24:33   is obnoxious, but...

01:24:34   No, you can't actually, you can't actually say that.

01:24:37   You should never actually say that.

01:24:38   And you can't say that because nobody who complains

01:24:40   knows how to fix it.

01:24:41   - Yeah, I mean, like, I am a programmer.

01:24:44   I use lots of open source libraries and stuff and things,

01:24:47   and I hardly ever fix bugs in them.

01:24:49   I just, if I find a problem with one,

01:24:51   I either work around it or I stop using it, usually.

01:24:53   Because usually it's a deeper problem

01:24:56   that I don't feel qualified to fix

01:24:58   or don't wanna spend the time to get familiar enough

01:25:00   with the code base to fix correctly.

01:25:02   I mean, like, how many podcast producers

01:25:05   are also Mac programmers?

01:25:07   Some of them are, but probably not a lot of them.

01:25:09   - Yeah, that's a fair point.

01:25:11   I really feel like if you have a free app,

01:25:16   you will definitely, a free closed source app,

01:25:20   you will definitely get support requests and complaints.

01:25:24   And if it were me anyway,

01:25:27   I would feel a lot more compulsion to address those

01:25:32   because I'm the only person on the planet

01:25:34   who can address them,

01:25:36   as opposed to if this thing was on GitHub,

01:25:38   which admittedly the people who are emailing

01:25:40   may not have the capability of fixing the problem.

01:25:42   But at least there's some other human being out there

01:25:46   that might be able to.

01:25:47   And that's how I would rest easy at night,

01:25:49   is knowing, look, I'm not helping all these people

01:25:51   that are whining about what does or does not work,

01:25:55   but I'm also not standing in the way of them

01:25:58   figuring out a way to fix it.

01:26:00   - Because any future designs on podcast production products,

01:26:04   which clearly he has though,

01:26:05   All you'd be doing is giving Head Start to your future competitors, essentially.

01:26:09   Someone could just pick up that code and say, "I'm going to use this as the basis of my

01:26:11   competing suite."

01:26:12   And that's not a good plan if that's here.

01:26:15   If you even plan to do that, but like, "I might do that," like Marco said, "I want to

01:26:20   leave that option open."

01:26:23   And getting back to the serial number thing, I think the most important feature of the

01:26:27   anti-piracy thing, other than the fact that it exists at all as a non-zero barrier, is

01:26:33   that it not annoy honest people.

01:26:36   And that is the part where most of these systems fall down.

01:26:40   Because really, we're like, it's again, it's so tempting to judge your anti-piracy system

01:26:45   on how well it prevents piracy, but your anti-piracy system should be judged on how little it annoys

01:26:51   people who are not pirates.

01:26:52   And that's really hard to do.

01:26:55   Mostly in terms of restraint, you have to back off and not be like, "But if I can't

01:26:59   contact the server to verify the code, I shouldn't launch, right?"

01:27:01   It's like, no, no, you gotta just let go.

01:27:05   Just think about the honest user

01:27:07   and how you never want to be in their face.

01:27:09   - Yeah, no, I mean, because I am me,

01:27:13   I have brainstormed all sorts of crazy ways

01:27:15   that I could do this.

01:27:16   Of course, I'm thinking about doing a passwordless

01:27:19   email lock in, 'cause that's what I do.

01:27:22   - We already beta tested that.

01:27:25   The focus group is not good.

01:27:27   - I still don't have a problem with it.

01:27:29   - Yeah, that's because maybe your emails

01:27:31   likely show up in time and you're not sitting there

01:27:32   hitting refresh on your email client going,

01:27:34   (imitates

01:27:35   cursing Marco every time.

01:27:37   - Yeah, so anyway, those of us with really

01:27:39   email clients love these kinds of systems.

01:27:42   - It's not the client, it's your damn server.

01:27:44   It's stuck in a queue somewhere trying to get out of your ISP.

01:27:46   - It's not my server, it's your client.

01:27:48   - This is why you don't use the Gmail web app, kids.

01:27:50   - This is why you don't use Gmail, kids.

01:27:52   - Gmail's fine.

01:27:53   - Gmail gets mails like instantly.

01:27:55   - Except for yours, apparently.

01:27:57   - No, no, some websites, third party websites

01:28:00   that are not Googles, I go and I do like reset my password.

01:28:03   I click the reset my password link

01:28:06   and like before the mouse button is up,

01:28:09   it arrives in the other browser window in Gmail.

01:28:12   And when I see that, I realize it's not Gmail

01:28:14   that's not checking my mail fast enough.

01:28:16   It's something else.

01:28:17   Whether it's internet traffic,

01:28:19   email as a store and forward system,

01:28:20   many things can go wrong.

01:28:21   - It's not that, it's gray listing.

01:28:24   It's always gray, if there's ever a delay

01:28:26   in email arriving in 2016, it's gray listing.

01:28:29   It is not like, oh, the postfix queue is full.

01:28:32   No, we are so far past that point these days.

01:28:36   So for those of you who aren't familiar,

01:28:37   gray listing is a type of spam prevention technique

01:28:40   where basically the theory is that spam servers

01:28:45   have to go through this massive list

01:28:47   and don't have time to retry and wait around

01:28:50   if the server says I'm busy, try again later.

01:28:53   So the idea, but a well-behaving mail sending server,

01:28:57   If the destination server says,

01:28:59   "Sorry, I'm busy, try again later,"

01:29:01   it'll actually hold onto that message for a while,

01:29:03   like a week, and it'll just try every hour, whatever.

01:29:07   It'll try again after certain short intervals

01:29:10   and then followed by long intervals.

01:29:11   Anyway, it doesn't matter.

01:29:12   So a spam provision technique that a lot of places do

01:29:16   is upon the first time you get email from a certain sender,

01:29:20   so you don't already know that they're legit,

01:29:22   you just tell them, "Oh, you know what?

01:29:24   "I'm busy right now, wait a bit."

01:29:25   And the theory is that the spammers will just move on

01:29:28   because the spam bots don't have enough memory

01:29:30   to keep track of all those things and try again later.

01:29:33   And then, but legit servers will try again later

01:29:36   and it'll get through.

01:29:37   And that's why so often the first email you get

01:29:40   from a certain service or whatever else

01:29:42   will be delayed by like an hour.

01:29:44   That's what's happening.

01:29:45   It is not any other reason, it is that.

01:29:47   It is great listening.

01:29:47   - But it's not, the first email from your servers

01:29:49   that gets delayed, it's random.

01:29:51   And it's not an hour, it's like 60 seconds,

01:29:54   but it seems like a long 60 seconds

01:29:56   when I'm sitting there waiting for it to arrive.

01:29:57   - Well, no, it's kind of, it's up to,

01:30:00   well, okay, I see what you're saying,

01:30:01   where in your case, it's not that long.

01:30:04   But yeah, 'cause I think it's kind of up to the client,

01:30:06   up to the sender as to when they try again,

01:30:08   but I think a common practice is about an hour

01:30:12   or something like that, but yeah.

01:30:13   - Anyway, it's kind of like the orders of magnitude

01:30:15   in terms of instantaneous is less than the speed

01:30:18   and not waiting is less than 100 milliseconds,

01:30:22   There's certain orders of magnitude of like 10 milliseconds, 100 milliseconds, one second

01:30:28   of when does attention wander, when do you feel like you can go off and do other things,

01:30:33   when do you feel like you're waiting on it.

01:30:35   And having a password and having it autofill and clicking the button is in a different

01:30:41   order of magnitude than having to go to get an email.

01:30:45   Even before you get into the idea of having to find a link to click on or whatever or

01:30:49   copy and paste something or whatever it is you may have to do. It is just a whole other

01:30:53   order of magnitude in terms of responsiveness of like, how long does it take me to log into

01:30:56   this site and what other things does it involve. So not a fan.

01:31:01   All right, thank you to our three sponsors this week, Hover, Trunk Club and Harry's.

01:31:07   And we will see you next week.

01:31:08   [Music]

01:31:11   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

01:31:18   Oh it was accidental.

01:31:20   Accidental.

01:31:21   John didn't do any research.

01:31:23   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:31:26   Cause it was accidental.

01:31:28   Accidental.

01:31:29   Oh it was accidental.

01:31:30   Accidental.

01:31:31   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

01:31:36   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:31:42   [MUSIC]

01:32:11   Did you see all the articles?

01:32:13   Like, oh, passwords, the end of the password,

01:32:15   passwords are over.

01:32:17   I don't know why I even click on those articles anymore,

01:32:19   because all they're talking about is like, oh,

01:32:20   a password to this login.

01:32:22   It's like this hellscape where reset my password

01:32:24   is the only way you can log into anything, essentially.

01:32:27   - Well, but I mean, honestly, first of all,

01:32:29   that is not that bad.

01:32:30   I've done it, it's fine.

01:32:31   Second of all, that is kind of the reality

01:32:34   of how a lot of people log into things anyway,

01:32:35   because a lot of people--

01:32:36   - I know, but it's not a good reality.

01:32:38   Like, it's a bad reality.

01:32:39   I don't want that reality.

01:32:40   - Agreed, but a lot of people always forget

01:32:43   their password to everything, and they just click

01:32:46   that link almost every time they log in.

01:32:48   - I know, but anyway, you still need to pass

01:32:49   it with your email.

01:32:50   You eventually get down to a one password situation,

01:32:52   and then hey, why not just use one password?

01:32:54   - So here's a question.

01:32:55   What if my key system was a web login,

01:33:00   and what if it was basically in the app,

01:33:03   it would have email and password?

01:33:05   - No, no.

01:33:06   Can you not make a client-side application

01:33:10   does not have a server component.

01:33:11   You do not need a server component.

01:33:13   He's just like, I want to write PHP, damn it.

01:33:15   I know it's a Mac app.

01:33:17   Like, there's such a huge win to just giving people a binary,

01:33:20   and then they never touch your servers.

01:33:22   Like, it scales much better than you having to babysit servers.

01:33:25   Well, but that does not do anything

01:33:26   about key sharing, which is probably the biggest

01:33:29   form of casual piracy.

01:33:30   No, no, but I'm saying, like, if it's free.

01:33:31   Like, if it's a free application.

01:33:32   I just want to see you show a free-- like, Quitter.

01:33:35   Quitter, I guess you did it.

01:33:36   There's no server component to Quitter, right?

01:33:37   Yeah, it's just free.

01:33:38   but you're just dying to do something in PHP.

01:33:40   Like, I could have a login page.

01:33:42   - I like PHP.

01:33:44   I love all the backslashes and the namespaces.

01:33:46   No, I'm just kidding, I still have to use

01:33:47   the single namespace 'cause I hate the backslash.

01:33:50   - Right, you quickly got over Windowsland, huh?

01:33:53   - Yeah, so, oh, I could talk about that briefly if you want,

01:33:56   if we don't have an after show,

01:33:57   it doesn't have to do with TiVo.

01:33:58   So yeah, basically, I asked on Twitter,

01:34:02   so TIFF wants to play a certain game

01:34:05   only available on Xbox One, yeah, Xbox One and Windows.

01:34:10   - You asked on Twitter,

01:34:12   that's how you're gonna start the story?

01:34:14   (laughing)

01:34:15   - So what's the real start of the story?

01:34:17   - The real story is, I was asked,

01:34:19   because I'm a person who you know who plays games on Macs,

01:34:22   hey, I wanna play Inside, how should I do it?

01:34:24   And I told you the answer, two days pass,

01:34:26   and then you post on Twitter,

01:34:28   hey, can anyone tell me how I can play Inside?

01:34:29   As if we had never talked,

01:34:31   as if the discussion never took place,

01:34:32   as if what I had to say was just garbage

01:34:34   and obviously not trustworthy because what do I know having actually played Inside on

01:34:38   a Mac?

01:34:39   What did you tell, you had this conversation with me or Tiff?

01:34:41   Oh, one of you two. You're the same person. You live in the same house.

01:34:44   No, it's not!

01:34:45   Oh, no they are not.

01:34:46   No, wait a minute.

01:34:47   Oh, no they are not.

01:34:48   We are two different people.

01:34:49   She was like, "Can you convince Marco to do this?" I'm like, "You can convince Marco.

01:34:51   He's your husband. I bet you have some influence in that area."

01:34:54   So, so wait. So before I tell you what I did, what should I have done? So my options were

01:34:59   basically like, should I, should I attempt to go through the hassle of making a boot

01:35:03   boot camp partition and of course you know then having to install, first having to get

01:35:07   windows, having to install windows and then having to run windows or should we just buy

01:35:12   an Xbox One? Because they're actually not that expensive these days.

01:35:16   The answer, the surrounding context of this is that a bunch of people who are on the incomparable

01:35:19   have played inside and it's the whole reason I wanted to play it was like they've already

01:35:24   played it and they wanted to have a podcast about it and if you want to be on the podcast

01:35:28   you have to have played it and at this point there was no implied schedule of like when

01:35:31   we were going to do this thing, but the point is they had just played it, like three or

01:35:34   four people had played it.

01:35:35   So there was a possibility that, hey, three or four people played it.

01:35:37   It could have gone up on the schedule for like next week's show, and so time was kind

01:35:41   of of the essence here.

01:35:43   And in that scenario, in the context of which it was asked, hey, a bunch of people played

01:35:45   Inside, I want to play it too, I only have a Mac, the answer, the obvious answer is bootcamp,

01:35:51   because it's not just an investment for this game, because you can play lots of things

01:35:54   in bootcamp, there are lots of games that are only available for Windows, and it's really

01:35:59   easy to do and I know you have tons of spare hard drives laying around and it gets you the game the

01:36:05   fastest with the most bang for your buck. Now the Windows thing is an issue but had you followed up

01:36:11   with me on that I would have told you the same thing everyone on Twitter did which you can get

01:36:14   a free trial and does the free trial matter? For a game that takes three hours to play, who cares?

01:36:19   A 90 day, 30 day free trial of Windows? Like this is the fastest way to go from zero to I have played

01:36:24   inside with minimal—especially if you're not the one who has to install Bootcamp, just

01:36:29   make you do it. Like, TIFF just makes you do it and it's fine. But even if you have

01:36:33   to do it yourself, like I did, before you even got to the point where you asked the

01:36:36   same question on Twitter to get the same answers from other people, I had finished the game

01:36:39   already. I had installed Bootcamp, played the game, finished it. Like, it is not that

01:36:45   bad. And now I actually have—I actually had a legitimate copy of Windows 7 from back

01:36:50   in a day so now I have a more up-to-date boot camp partition and by the way yes

01:36:54   my 2008 Mac Pro played inside just fine at native res of course so Casey what do

01:37:00   you think I should have done oh you absolutely without a shadow of a doubt

01:37:03   by the expo because that is the most Marco a solution to this problem but no

01:37:08   but you don't know like the backstory in the Xbox one is there's two new ones

01:37:12   coming out the a better version of the current one and then a much more

01:37:15   powerful one a year later so this is kind of the wrong time to buy an Xbox

01:37:17   one as well. How much is the Xbox one? You can get them on, you can get them on Amazon

01:37:22   for about 250 bucks. You absolutely buy the Xbox one and then if you want to try to sell

01:37:28   it for 100 bucks later. You're not going to be able to sell that Xbox one once the new

01:37:31   ones come out. So here is my dilemma basically like, the Xbox is the lower effort, the lower

01:37:39   effort slightly more money version than just buying Windows or whatever else. Which is

01:37:43   the Marco version that is the Marco version yeah probably right however and

01:37:49   and if it was if it was a ps4 and it already have ps4 I might have done that

01:37:54   however our house is full of game consoles that we've played very briefly

01:37:59   and then they just sit around for the next seven years collecting dust under

01:38:02   the TV and I just I don't want another console because like if you leave these

01:38:08   two options what do I have like after we're done with this if we whether it's

01:38:12   like a Windows partition or an external Windows drive

01:38:14   or whatever, or this game system,

01:38:17   what am I stuck with afterwards in the house?

01:38:19   Like what is going to collect dust in the house afterwards?

01:38:22   If it's a boot camp partition, nothing.

01:38:24   Or at worst, an external disk of some kind.

01:38:27   If it's the game system, which admittedly is easier,

01:38:31   I have this giant box sitting around

01:38:33   and these controllers and these plugs

01:38:34   and these adapters and all this crap.

01:38:36   I have games, we have a PS3 in the closet

01:38:39   that I hardly ever played.

01:38:41   We have a PS4 that we've played,

01:38:43   that Tiff played I think two games on so far.

01:38:47   And VR stuff is gonna come out

01:38:49   and make all these systems irrelevant anyway.

01:38:51   - Well, let's not go crazy here.

01:38:52   - We have a 360 that I bought back in 2008 or something

01:38:56   that has very rarely actually,

01:38:59   we've used it in bursts here or there,

01:39:01   like Tiff would play a certain game on it

01:39:02   or I'd play a certain game on it,

01:39:03   but for the most part it didn't get a lot of use.

01:39:06   Before that we had a Wii that didn't get a lot of use

01:39:08   because like everyone else's Wii,

01:39:09   We tried it, had fun for a month,

01:39:11   and then never played it again.

01:39:13   Somewhere we have a Wii Fit balance board

01:39:15   where the same fate happened.

01:39:17   I have all these giant plastic game systems

01:39:20   all over the place trying to figure out

01:39:21   what the hell to do with them.

01:39:21   You can't really sell them.

01:39:22   They're not really worth enough to justify

01:39:24   their shipping weight once they're used and old.

01:39:27   And so I was like, what the heck do I do with all this?

01:39:31   And also, the Xbox One in the current generation

01:39:34   just seems like the loser system.

01:39:36   And I apologize for anybody who has one,

01:39:38   But it just seemed like I have so often in my life

01:39:42   made the wrong choice on a format war

01:39:45   or a game console generation or something.

01:39:47   I've so often like chosen the losing side

01:39:50   and then been stuck with this like losing hardware

01:39:52   and having all the problems that go along with that.

01:39:55   And so I try to avoid that as much as I can these days

01:39:57   'cause I've done that so many times.

01:39:59   Like I bought a DVD plus R drive.

01:40:02   I mean, come on.

01:40:03   So I try to avoid that.

01:40:05   And the Xbox One just seems like it has so definitively lost this generation.

01:40:10   And, you know, some generations are closer than others.

01:40:12   This one seems like it's not close.

01:40:14   Well, the Xbox One, that's the reason you don't want to buy it now, because it is poised

01:40:17   to win the .5 generation that they're both doing.

01:40:21   So in the revised versions, not the Xbox that is essentially the same Xbox One but smaller

01:40:27   and quieter.

01:40:28   Right, it's coming out in a week.

01:40:29   Yeah, whatever.

01:40:30   Not that one.

01:40:31   That's fine.

01:40:32   That's just what they normally do.

01:40:33   After that, which will be competing with the new PS4, they will both be more powerful consoles.

01:40:39   The new more powerful Xbox One will be much more powerful than the new more powerful PlayStation

01:40:44   4.

01:40:45   So it'll be an inversion of the current scenario where the PlayStation 4 is slightly more powerful.

01:40:49   This will widen the gap in the opposite direction.

01:40:51   Will that be enough to make the Xbox One do better in this generation?

01:40:55   Probably not, especially since they'll have to make the games play on the Xbox One too.

01:40:58   But all that means is that this is the wrong time to buy an Xbox One, essentially.

01:41:02   Unless there's a whole bunch of games that you know you want to play but more importantly in this whole big thing that you've missed

01:41:07   That you've gone through the most salient fact here is while you've been worrying about this TIFF has not been playing inside

01:41:13   And she could be done already. It's a three-hour game

01:41:15   You could have been done like all this hemming and hawing is like pointless and like oh you're not stuck with much in steam

01:41:21   Not only you're not stuck with much if you make like a boot camp partition. That is an asset

01:41:25   She will not delete it

01:41:26   There are tons of games on Steam that are only available on Windows when they have steam sales

01:41:30   she'll buy something for three bucks and get it a day's worth of fun out of it and that's a good deal like you won't be

01:41:35   Like and I know you have hard drives here

01:41:37   You don't have to buy a hard drive like you have them there this you should have already done this

01:41:41   I feel like you're failing as a husband and probably as a father Adam is disappointed in you, too

01:41:45   Let's be honest. So here's the other the other side of this the rationale on the boot camp side is

01:41:49   I find windows dirty. Like I don't like windows. I I was there for so long

01:41:54   I I fled and I don't want to go back and I have I have

01:41:59   I occasionally maintained boot camp partition

01:42:01   on my own computer, on my own Mac, very occasionally,

01:42:04   and the last time was a very long time ago,

01:42:06   because every time I do it, I regret having done it,

01:42:09   because I just, I realize how much I hate Windows

01:42:11   and how much I actually don't like gaming

01:42:12   very much anymore anyway.

01:42:14   But Tiff does play games, so I wanna do something for her,

01:42:17   but her computer has no free space,

01:42:19   'cause she has tons of photos on it,

01:42:20   'cause she is a photographer, so tons of photos on there,

01:42:23   there's no free space in the built-in drive.

01:42:25   I eventually learned that, oh, you can actually do boot camp

01:42:28   external drives these days. I didn't realize that until fairly recently. That solves a

01:42:32   lot of these problems because then I don't feel like I have this dirty Windows partition

01:42:35   sitting around like junking up my Mac all the time because I can just unplug the drive

01:42:38   and put it in a drawer and then it's gone. But I also didn't want to put it on a spinning

01:42:45   disk because those are huge and ugly and loud. I actually don't have any 2.5 inch spinning

01:42:49   disks. I only have 3.5 inch ones that I could devote to it and that would be even larger

01:42:53   and even louder and even hotter and slow and I don't think I even have any three and a

01:42:59   half inch enclosures.

01:43:00   So this is a lot of excuses.

01:43:02   I installed it on a big spending 3.5 inch disk and you know what?

01:43:04   I already played the game.

01:43:05   Good.

01:43:06   And I hate Windows.

01:43:07   I guarantee I hate Windows more than you.

01:43:09   Guarantee you.

01:43:10   Yeah.

01:43:11   Well anyway, so instead of doing any of those options, I had to buy something of course

01:43:17   because I like buying things.

01:43:18   I went on Amazon and I bought one of those little Samsung T3 external SSDs.

01:43:23   Oh, of course you did.

01:43:24   Yeah, because they're great overall.

01:43:27   They're fantastic little SSDs.

01:43:29   And I didn't have any other SSDs that were large enough.

01:43:33   I had an old really tiny one, but none that were large enough.

01:43:35   So I just bought the 250 gig one for like 80 bucks on Amazon a few days ago.

01:43:40   It arrived yesterday.

01:43:42   I installed it all this morning.

01:43:43   I followed the Stack Overflow instructions on how to do an external Windows.

01:43:46   First you have to load up VMware,

01:43:49   load up Windows in that, use the disk image tool,

01:43:52   whatever, automated install tools or whatever

01:43:54   to do all this stuff to make it configurable

01:43:56   on the external drive.

01:43:56   Then install Windows on the external drive

01:43:58   using these other Windows installation from your VMware.

01:44:00   It's like all this crap.

01:44:01   It's like all right, I'll put all this crap on my laptop

01:44:03   to configure all this 'cause I don't want this

01:44:05   cluttering up my desktop. (laughs)

01:44:07   So I don't want a VMware installation.

01:44:09   I'm never gonna use that.

01:44:10   It's just gonna cause problems for me.

01:44:11   So just put it on my laptop.

01:44:13   I don't care.

01:44:14   So then I configured it all

01:44:16   and now it works.

01:44:17   And as of this morning,

01:44:18   we have now this bootable little Samsung SSD,

01:44:21   this little USB SSD,

01:44:23   that we can plug into either of our computers

01:44:25   whenever a game comes along that we wanna play,

01:44:27   and we can just play it.

01:44:28   I installed Steam,

01:44:29   and our account for Steam is already set up,

01:44:31   and I already bought and downloaded inside.

01:44:33   It's all ready to go,

01:44:35   so TIFF can now play inside

01:44:36   by plugging this into our computer and rebooting.

01:44:38   And then when we're done,

01:44:39   we can unplug it and put it in a drawer.

01:44:42   And if I really need a disk for external use,

01:44:45   going on a trip or something, I can just bring this disk and we have a disk. And afterwards

01:44:49   I don't have this giant game console collecting dust, I have this useful little external drive.

01:44:55   So I'm reminded of what Tiff told me when I was telling her that she should speed you

01:44:59   along to get this done several days earlier instead of asking on Twitter and doing all

01:45:04   this other stuff and not listening to the things that I already told you.

01:45:06   You told her, not me.

01:45:08   She told you too, you live together. Anyway, do you know what she told me? She said, "This

01:45:13   This is what Marco does, you just have to let it run its course.

01:45:15   You both know me so well.

01:45:17   You just have to, this is what she said, you just have to let it run its course.

01:45:22   Spoken like a woman who knows what she's dealing with.

01:45:26   No one knows me better than her.

01:45:28   So it has run its course, you have acquired a new toy, you have read web pages about how

01:45:33   to do something techy, and now you're happy because you don't have an Xbox in the house,

01:45:38   and you both have the capability to play Steam games.

01:45:40   I just can't wait for you to be fighting over this.

01:45:42   I guess you could just clone it at that point,

01:45:44   but then you had to look up Windows disk cloning tools.

01:45:47   - I guarantee you, there will never be a time

01:45:50   when Tiff and I both at the same time

01:45:53   want to play the same Windows game.

01:45:56   That's not going to happen.

01:45:56   - You should both play inside, it's fun.

01:45:58   Although, yeah, you can just watch her play.

01:46:00   It'll be fine for you, probably.

01:46:01   - That's all I'm gonna wanna do, yeah.

01:46:03   - I just, I cannot believe you spent this much time on this.

01:46:07   What is it you're supposed to be doing on Overcast

01:46:10   that you're refusing to do or avoiding doing

01:46:13   with such passion that you're writing Mac apps

01:46:15   and installing Windows?

01:46:17   - A new watch app.

01:46:18   - Oh.

01:46:19   - From scratch for watchOS 3, that's what I have to be doing.

01:46:21   - That's right, 'cause you skipped a generation

01:46:22   like Apple and their Macs.

01:46:23   - Yeah, because the generation sucked.

01:46:26   Show me any watchOS 2 developer who's like,

01:46:28   I'm glad I did that.

01:46:29   I can't think of any.

01:46:32   - Underscore is glad.

01:46:33   - Is he?

01:46:34   - 'Cause now he has the experience,

01:46:35   now he can do watch apps in his sleep.

01:46:36   He sneezes and a watch app comes out.

01:46:38   (chime)