177: Paying for Someone to Blame


00:00:00   I'm actually fighting with a fly in my arm.

00:00:02   Marco will hear the fly later.

00:00:03   I'm distracted by trying to track down and kill this fly.

00:00:07   I'll get it eventually.

00:00:08   I feel like I have to take a break from the show for me to hunt it down.

00:00:12   But anyway, do you want me to lend you an iPad too?

00:00:15   I've forgotten about that.

00:00:17   Oh my god, that's old school.

00:00:19   Oh my goodness.

00:00:20   Talk amongst yourselves for a moment.

00:00:21   I will kill or shoo this fly out of the room.

00:00:23   It needs to be done.

00:00:24   Hang on.

00:00:25   [Music]

00:00:27   This fly did not want to leave, did not want to die.

00:00:31   How did you convince it? Did you argue with it until it realized it was wrong?

00:00:35   I would have killed it if I could have caught it, but it wouldn't land.

00:00:39   I was trying to get it to leave the room, so I was turning off the lights in this room

00:00:42   and turning on bright lights elsewhere to try to lure it out.

00:00:45   If you want, we can start talking about destiny. It'll leave immediately.

00:00:49   It's truth.

00:00:50   Just bore it out of the room.

00:00:51   Oh, the flies love destiny.

00:00:53   [Music]

00:00:54   So a friend of the show Dave Nanian wrote in and he has opinions about

00:00:59   universal remotes and things of that nature. Of super duper fame, Dave Nanian.

00:01:04   Yep. One of a backup application that you should use, or equivalent to make

00:01:09   multiple backups of your stuff. Anyway. Oh, he's not talking about universal

00:01:12   remotes, I'm sorry, he's talking about CEC. Yeah, he has very often been the

00:01:17   proponent of the "spend a lot of money to solve your electronics problem"

00:01:22   solution which is one possible solution I've never been particularly a fan of it

00:01:28   because I feel like I'm sure no matter how not because I don't want to spend a

00:01:32   lot of money on things I've ever really expensive TV but I feel like no matter

00:01:35   how much money you spend it will still never work right and you'll feel worse

00:01:40   if you spent a lot more money but anyway he's happy with his setup he has banging

00:01:44   olives and stuff and he has a banging olives and TV which itself acts as like

00:01:49   the hub for everything is like six HDMI inputs and built-in sound system that you can connect like 18 speakers to the TV

00:01:55   And it does wireless stuff and it integrates with like home control systems

00:01:59   you can raise and lower your blinds and turn on your lights and security cameras like all all the rich people stuff than you would

00:02:05   imagine and

00:02:06   Because the TV itself is the hub for all this stuff. You don't have a situation like Casey

00:02:11   described last time of the universal remote

00:02:15   Having to track the state of all your devices and if it gets out of sync then it's very confused

00:02:19   The TV knows the state of everything because it is the hub for everything and it can you know sense when it's getting input on

00:02:24   Different things and the speakers are hooked up directly to the television. So it takes out a lot of the guesswork

00:02:28   And they have all these

00:02:30   fancy-pants things where you can take all of your equipment that's big and noisy and put it in the basement and connect it with a

00:02:35   Big ethernet cable up to your system upstairs

00:02:38   You can hide all the stuff in all the the the things that you would spend thousands and thousands of dollars for of course

00:02:43   The downside of this is you have to, at the very least,

00:02:46   have this big fancy Bang & Olufsen TV

00:02:48   and some other proprietary components that go with it.

00:02:50   And Bang & Olufsen doesn't really make good TVs.

00:02:54   This is a problem, right?

00:02:56   So the television that I have,

00:02:58   at the time that I bought it,

00:03:00   had I bought a fancy Bang & Olufsen thing,

00:03:02   I would be getting a worse television set

00:03:04   in terms of picture quality

00:03:05   in exchange for all this other stuff.

00:03:06   So I'm still stuck because of my priorities,

00:03:11   buying individual components and slapping them together

00:03:14   and trying to make do with it.

00:03:15   But if you're willing to compromise

00:03:17   on not having the absolute very best

00:03:19   of every individual component,

00:03:20   you can buy an integrated solution

00:03:22   for a tremendous amount of money

00:03:24   that I don't think is worth it, but you'll be happy.

00:03:27   By the way, another solution I was asking

00:03:29   a while back in Twitter, the best solution for,

00:03:32   we talked about this in the show,

00:03:33   for me to get the video off of my Blu-rays

00:03:36   without recompressing it, just preserve it exactly,

00:03:39   bit for bit the way it is on my Blu-rays and then play it back on my television without

00:03:43   having a spinning plastic disc?

00:03:44   That's make MKV, isn't it? That'll do it.

00:03:47   Yeah, but remember, my issue was playback. I can't get 24 frames per second cadence

00:03:52   playback out of my boxes. Anyway, we talked about that on a past show, which none of us

00:03:57   will be remembering in the show notes. But anyway, one of the rich person solutions to

00:04:02   that is those boxes they sell that I think is technically legal because someone paid

00:04:06   a lot of money to the Blu-ray association where you buy the super expensive box and

00:04:11   you feed it all your Blu-rays in a big jukebox or one at a time and it basically rips your

00:04:15   Blu-rays for you losslessly and lets you play them back, but it does it in a way that like

00:04:20   complies with the letter of the law, I don't know, whatever.

00:04:23   It's not a pirate's thing, it's an entirely legal thing, but it's tremendously expensive

00:04:27   and it's just like outside the amount of money I'm willing to pay for that.

00:04:30   I will just stick the disc in the Blu-ray player and deal with the spinning disc noise

00:04:35   at this point, but hopefully we'll get there eventually.

00:04:37   We're close, like I said, we're really close.

00:04:38   The only barrier remaining is me not having a way

00:04:43   to play that content back on my television,

00:04:45   preserving the correct frame rate and everything

00:04:48   without doing a spinning disk.

00:04:49   - I should point out that I have achieved 80% of this.

00:04:53   I also would have the same problem with 24 frames a second,

00:04:57   but I don't care, I don't think I have anything of that rate

00:04:59   and I usually watch TV shows,

00:05:01   but I rip the entire wire Blu-ray set.

00:05:04   and it was very, very easy with modern tools

00:05:09   because all I had to do was use MakeMKV to rip the Blu-ray

00:05:14   and then subler to basically rewrap it in an MP4 container

00:05:18   without having to transcode the video.

00:05:20   Although I believe I had to transcode the audio

00:05:22   because I don't care about surround sound,

00:05:23   please email Jon.

00:05:24   - You've modified it already.

00:05:26   - Yeah, well, who cares?

00:05:27   But that's optional.

00:05:29   You could have left the giant AC3 and DTS tracks on there

00:05:32   if you really wanted to.

00:05:33   but I don't even have surround speakers anymore

00:05:35   because I decided years ago they weren't worth the hassle.

00:05:38   So anyway, so I was able to rip the entire TV series

00:05:41   with Subler and MakeMKV in surprisingly little time.

00:05:46   And just like this roughly $100 USB 3 Blu-ray drive

00:05:51   that I had in the closet from a little while back.

00:05:54   And yeah, it works great.

00:05:55   And now I play them in Plex,

00:05:57   and it has all the metadata from Plex somehow magically

00:06:01   through some probably not quite legal service.

00:06:03   and it's great, I absolutely love it.

00:06:05   And it's way faster and more reliable

00:06:07   and way better quality than the HBO Go, now,

00:06:11   Mini, app, whatever it is, the HBO Mini app on TV,

00:06:15   it's way better than that, way better quality,

00:06:17   no drop in frames issues, so it wasn't a problem

00:06:20   with like the bit rate or anything,

00:06:20   it was a problem with HBO sucking.

00:06:22   And yeah, overall, a great solution

00:06:25   to watch any kind of HBO show is buy the Blu-rays

00:06:28   and rip them all, and it actually works surprisingly well.

00:06:32   - That's what I do with the content

00:06:33   I don't actually care about.

00:06:35   (laughing)

00:06:36   Once I care about it,

00:06:37   I need it to be the highest possible quality.

00:06:38   So yeah, I have tons of stuff in Plex,

00:06:40   I have tons of things that are, you know,

00:06:41   but for the things I care about,

00:06:44   I want the very best quality,

00:06:45   and that's still putting the disc in the little drive.

00:06:48   - But wait a minute though,

00:06:49   so the only limitation of what I was just saying

00:06:51   is possibly audio,

00:06:52   is if the Apple TV can output whatever DTS

00:06:55   or whatever over the optical port,

00:06:57   then you wouldn't have any quality problems, right?

00:06:59   - It's not an optical port,

00:07:00   you can do it over HDMI if it's smart enough.

00:07:01   So a lot of the applications won't send the unmodified audio,

00:07:06   like they won't send the DTS HD stream

00:07:09   directly to my receiver, they just won't do it.

00:07:11   - Yeah, but I bet Plex would, or there's probably an option.

00:07:14   - Plex and Infuse, depends on which one is in the best mood,

00:07:17   or like the DS video app, I have many options to do it.

00:07:21   But really it's the video,

00:07:22   'cause most of the content I really care about,

00:07:23   I'm mostly talking about movies,

00:07:25   and they're 24 frames per second, and it's a deal breaker,

00:07:27   I can't get that to my TV any other way.

00:07:29   - Yeah, and that's mainly a hardware issue, right,

00:07:31   that you don't have any TV boxes that run software

00:07:34   that could play movies and would output the right signal?

00:07:37   - It's not hardware, it's software.

00:07:38   Like Apple TV could be changed in such a way

00:07:41   to output 24 frames per second cadence video.

00:07:44   My PlayStation 3 can output that.

00:07:46   That's what I put the Blu-ray into, right?

00:07:47   I've even tried putting the video files

00:07:50   on the PlayStation 3 and having it do it,

00:07:51   but I can't get that to work either.

00:07:53   So the only time my PlayStation 3 outputs in this way

00:07:55   is when it's playing a Blu-ray.

00:07:57   The Apple TV is always locked at 60 frames per second

00:07:59   or whatever it's outputting at, and I just try and,

00:08:02   we went through this in the past.

00:08:03   - Yeah, yeah.

00:08:04   - But I have nothing that can do it,

00:08:05   and there's no technical reason.

00:08:06   It's not like these things aren't powerful enough

00:08:07   or whatever.

00:08:08   A lot of people have newer televisions than mine

00:08:10   that can do the, what do you call it,

00:08:13   detecting the cadence and accounting for it and everything,

00:08:15   but I run all the video tests,

00:08:16   and it just, nothing can get 24 frames per second out there

00:08:19   except for my Blu-ray player.

00:08:20   So that's what I keep using.

00:08:21   My next setup, hopefully we'll be able to do it.

00:08:24   If not, it's not the end of the world.

00:08:26   Like Blu-ray player, it's not a thing I do frequently,

00:08:29   And it's only for a small subset of movies,

00:08:31   so I'll just keep sticking my desk in.

00:08:32   - Although my solution doesn't have fan noise either.

00:08:35   (laughing)

00:08:36   - But you're missing out on the things

00:08:37   that Jon's eyeballs can't even see.

00:08:39   And he'll know that he's missing out on it.

00:08:42   - I can see them.

00:08:43   (laughing)

00:08:44   - So a couple thoughts, mostly on what Marco had said.

00:08:46   I'd like to completely agree with him about MakeMKV.

00:08:50   It is wonderful, especially as paired with,

00:08:52   if you're willing to recompress stuff.

00:08:55   Don Melton's compression scripts,

00:08:56   which we've talked about in the past,

00:08:58   and I believe I've written a post about it

00:09:00   at some point or another.

00:09:01   If I have, I'll put it in the show notes.

00:09:02   - Oh yeah, those are awesome.

00:09:04   But nowadays, I mean, recompressing Blu-ray

00:09:07   is still, even on modern hardware,

00:09:09   still a very computer-intensive,

00:09:12   pretty long-running process,

00:09:13   and you can just run 'em in a batch overnight,

00:09:15   but it still takes a lot,

00:09:17   and if you have any way to use

00:09:20   three-and-a-half-inch hard drives as your storage medium,

00:09:23   so any way, whether that's external drives in your desk

00:09:26   or a NAS in the closet full of disks,

00:09:28   whatever it is, three and a half inch hard drives

00:09:31   are so massive and cheap these days

00:09:34   that you just have basically infinite storage space

00:09:38   if you can use those drives somehow.

00:09:40   And so I just, these days I rip them all from Blu-rays

00:09:44   and the whole wire series is 560 gigs from somewhere

00:09:49   and it doesn't matter at all.

00:09:52   - Most feature films are 30 or 40 gigs, I think,

00:09:55   something like that.

00:09:56   And the wire is considerably longer than that.

00:09:58   And to go back one more step, you were talking, and I know you said it jokingly, about, oh,

00:10:03   some illegal way that Plex gets metadata.

00:10:05   I don't believe it's legal at all.

00:10:06   They don't use IMDB, which I presume is for some sort of licensing reason or something,

00:10:11   but they do use the TV database, which is the TVDB.com, and the movie database, which

00:10:16   is the MovieDB.org.

00:10:17   And we'll put those links in the show notes.

00:10:20   Those are less geared around browsing, in my opinion, who did what and when, and more

00:10:25   about getting metadata about films,

00:10:27   which is probably why Plex uses it,

00:10:29   but they are, to the best of my knowledge, completely legal.

00:10:32   - What about all the copyrighted material on them?

00:10:34   Is it one of those weird gray areas, or is it--

00:10:36   - You mean like the Google image search for movie posters,

00:10:39   and you just shove them in there?

00:10:40   Probably not really.

00:10:42   - Oh, that's true, actually.

00:10:43   I didn't think about that.

00:10:44   I don't know, but anyway, anything else on video

00:10:47   and that sort of thing?

00:10:48   We have one other piece of follow-up real quick.

00:10:50   - Oh, I do have a quick bit of follow-up

00:10:51   on my HDMI CEC situation.

00:10:55   - Mm.

00:10:56   - The setting was off.

00:10:57   - I told you so.

00:10:58   - Huh, that's a casey,

00:10:59   casey debugged your problem last week.

00:11:01   - You're right, yeah.

00:11:01   I hadn't checked, I didn't even know you could turn it off,

00:11:04   so I hadn't checked it.

00:11:05   And it was on, but like, it worked for months.

00:11:08   Somehow it turned off.

00:11:09   It's pretty deep in the settings.

00:11:10   I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have accidentally done that

00:11:12   since I never go to the settings screen.

00:11:13   But I don't know, maybe one of the software updates

00:11:16   might have turned it off, I don't know.

00:11:18   - One of the features of CEC is it can turn off CEC.

00:11:21   (laughing)

00:11:23   Oh, goodness gracious.

00:11:25   All right, the last piece of follow-up we have

00:11:28   from a friend of the show, Matt Bischoff.

00:11:30   John, I think, especially was talking last episode

00:11:33   about what ingredients are in what ice creams.

00:11:36   And, you know, hey, in John's opinion,

00:11:39   if I recall correctly, he said there should only be

00:11:41   a handful of ingredients in any true and decent ice cream.

00:11:45   And Matt Bischoff has done a survey

00:11:47   of many of the popular ice cream brands that we've mentioned

00:11:49   and even a couple of others,

00:11:51   and put together an air table, which is a site I've never heard of before, but it's very cool.

00:11:56   It looks like basically a Google Sheet or Excel spreadsheet, if you will, but also a little bit

00:12:02   more than that. And so you can see all the different ingredients. Matt has included the

00:12:06   ingredients, the ingredient count, calorie per serving, serving size, calories per gram,

00:12:10   and even links because he is that thorough. Is there anything that guy doesn't do pretty much

00:12:15   perfectly? I doubt it. But anyway, worth checking out. John, now that you've seen this, any opinions

00:12:19   on any of this stuff.

00:12:20   >> A lot of people wanted to write in and tell me why all those ingredients are in there.

00:12:24   I know why they're in there.

00:12:25   Unfortunately, the list of ingredients doesn't tell you what I really want to know, which

00:12:28   I should have emphasized last time, is how much of this stuff.

00:12:31   All right, so the things that we're talking about that are not things that you would put

00:12:34   in ice cream that you make in your own house with your ice cream maker, which, by the way,

00:12:37   is really easy and everyone should do.

00:12:38   It doesn't even take up a lot of room.

00:12:39   You should get one.

00:12:40   They're fun.

00:12:42   Is they're putting in ingredients to make it so that when the ice cream thaws and then

00:12:47   and then refreezes, you don't get those big chunky ice crystals.

00:12:49   You ever do that?

00:12:50   With any ice cream, whether you buy it from the store or whatever, it thaws a little bit.

00:12:54   Or if your refrigerator or freezer, like your kid leaves a door open or something, or the

00:12:59   power goes out for a long time and everything kind of like melts a little bit, but then

00:13:02   it refreezes.

00:13:03   And then you take the ice cream, like, "Oh, you can tell that it's melted and refrozen."

00:13:06   Someone can find a physics video on YouTube explaining how the ice crystals, like the

00:13:11   water separates from the non-water parts and then it forms larger ice crystals and it tastes

00:13:15   all crunchy and gross.

00:13:16   And you don't like that.

00:13:17   Um, egg yolk is one example of like an emulsifier essentially that will keep the things mixed

00:13:23   together kind of like how egg yolk and like a salad dressing will keep the oil and the

00:13:26   vinegar mixed together.

00:13:27   It will keep them from separating.

00:13:28   Same thing, it will keep like the liquid, the water from separating from the solid ingredients

00:13:32   and making the big ice crystals when it remounts.

00:13:34   Um, egg yolks are more expensive obviously.

00:13:36   Almost all the other things they put in, these various gums and other what they call stabilizers,

00:13:40   they're called stabilizers because they want to account for the fact that the ice cream

00:13:43   is going to be shipped from far away in trucks with imperfect refrigeration and it's going

00:13:48   to melt and refreeze and melt and refreeze and melt and refreeze and if it didn't have

00:13:50   these stabilizers in them, it would taste terrible.

00:13:53   It would just be like, you know, big chunky water sharp ice crystals in there doesn't

00:13:58   taste good.

00:13:59   You want it to be smooth and creamy.

00:14:01   So the cheaper ice creams, in addition to this thing, what is it called, Overrun, I

00:14:05   forget what the hell it's called, how much air they blow into it to make you buy air

00:14:09   instead of densely packed things.

00:14:10   why hagandas is more dense than regular stuff. But anyway, setting aside the air thing, because

00:14:14   some people just like a softer ice cream, the cheaper the ice cream, the more stabilizer

00:14:20   they put in it. And they put lots and lots of stabilizers, so it can be very resilient

00:14:23   to freezing and thawing, and they don't have to put any egg yolks or any other more expensive

00:14:27   ingredient in there. And it still seems smooth and creamy right where you get it. So it's

00:14:33   not just that there are stabilizers, it's how much. And the ingredient list doesn't

00:14:36   tell you how much because they don't have amounts. It's just an order by, you know,

00:14:39   the most, the ingredients that there's the most of and then the second most and so on and so

00:14:43   forth. But it doesn't give you numbers. And my impression of the really the worst ice cream

00:14:48   flavors is they have a lot of stabilizers and a lot of other things that affect texture and stuff,

00:14:53   and that there's more of them. That, you know, like Häagen-Dazs, a couple of their flavors have

00:14:57   some stabilizers in them, but not a lot is my impression. And then other ones that have the

00:15:02   exact same ingredient list, tastes like I'm eating,

00:15:05   I don't know, foam rubber or something.

00:15:07   It just doesn't taste right or taste natural.

00:15:09   So that's, and this list, like going down

00:15:12   to Cold Stone Creamery, having 17 ingredients,

00:15:14   including like ethyl alcohol and artificial flavor,

00:15:18   whatever that is, and triethyl citrate,

00:15:21   and you know, all sorts of other things

00:15:22   to affect the color, the flavor,

00:15:27   and then to avoid all those ice crystals and everything.

00:15:30   And what I heard from somebody was it,

00:15:31   I don't know if it was Twitter or someone emailing me

00:15:33   or something about Haagen-Dazs for example.

00:15:34   How can they get away with not having stabilizers

00:15:37   and for example, their vanilla ice cream?

00:15:38   How can they do that?

00:15:39   Because apparently they own their distribution chain

00:15:42   and they own their own refrigerated trucks

00:15:43   and they basically make sure that their ice cream

00:15:44   never melts and refuises.

00:15:47   Because if you were to melt and refreeze Haagen-Dazs,

00:15:49   I've done it, we had power outages and stuff,

00:15:51   it tastes terrible.

00:15:52   It's got all the ice crystals formed in it.

00:15:54   No stabilizers except for egg yolks,

00:15:55   which are expensive, right?

00:15:57   So anyway, try making your own ice cream.

00:16:00   try avoiding the ice creams,

00:16:01   not that have any stabilizers in them,

00:16:03   but that basically tastes like

00:16:04   you're eating a big thing of plastic,

00:16:06   and you'll be happier.

00:16:08   - Yeah, I mean, just try avoiding the ones

00:16:10   whose ingredients sound like jet fuel

00:16:12   is basically a good rule here.

00:16:13   (laughing)

00:16:16   - Also, a quick follow-up.

00:16:17   A handful of people wrote me to say,

00:16:19   "Oh, I didn't know that Dreyer's or Breyer's

00:16:22   was Edie's where you are," and so on and so forth,

00:16:25   and apparently I got myself very mixed up

00:16:29   what's Edie's versus Dryer's versus Breyer's. And so I had commented that the slow churned,

00:16:35   which I think I had attributed to dryers, the slow churned, which is the low fat ice cream,

00:16:42   is actually my favorite by taste ice cream, which I know Jon really, really hates. And somebody wrote

00:16:48   not only me, but Edie's ice cream on Twitter to say, you know, "Hey, what's the story? I thought

00:16:52   that was Edie's." And it is Edie's where I am. I had been confused. And Edie's ice cream is written

00:16:58   EDIS is called Dreyer's West of the Rocky Mountains, and just FYI, it's delicious

00:17:03   no matter what you call it.

00:17:05   So thank you, EDIS, social media team, for correcting my unbelievable faux pas.

00:17:10   That's one of my least favorite brands of ice cream, EDIS.

00:17:12   Yeah, but I should have recognized the container.

00:17:14   It's the same.

00:17:15   Dreyer, it's just has a different word on it.

00:17:16   It's kind of like the Hellmann's and Best Foods mayonnaise situation.

00:17:21   One flavor of EDIS, though, is a flavor this ties into last week that I don't think is

00:17:25   available anywhere else that I think tastes pretty terrible and does not taste like it

00:17:30   tastes very artificial to me and yet I still find myself eating it which is probably bad

00:17:33   is that they make a flavor that has basically Samoa's mixed into the ice cream.

00:17:38   Oh, I tried that. It's it I found it overwhelmingly like artificial and weird. Oh, totally. Totally.

00:17:44   It totally tastes like you're eating like puffy plastic with Samoa's in it. Yes. And

00:17:49   yet I still find myself eating it. So that's like I mean, I don't I would never buy it

00:17:53   willingly but sometimes it appears in the house and when it does appear in the house

00:17:55   I usually won't touch any of these at all but that one I will take some. I always feel

00:17:59   bad. I always stop myself after a little tiny bit and put it back but yeah. I mean that's

00:18:04   the draw of the Samoas I guess but I remember repulsed by the ice cream but drawn by the

00:18:07   broken up cookies.

00:18:10   Our first sponsor tonight is Trunk Club. Shopping takes forever and nobody has time for it.

00:18:16   Now it's summertime. You probably need a solid pair of shorts and some swimwear for all your

00:18:19   offshore activities and it would be nice to have somebody else pick all these things out

00:18:23   for you.

00:18:24   With Trunk Club you don't ever have to set foot in a store and you get your very own

00:18:27   stylist for free and this is not like a robot stylist, they just like put an icon on screen,

00:18:31   it's an actual human being stylist who works with you.

00:18:34   Trunk Club makes it easy to look your best in clothes that fit you perfectly handpicked

00:18:37   by your own personal stylist.

00:18:39   Go to TrunkClubs.com/ATP, type in your measurements, share your likes and dislikes and then your

00:18:45   very own stylist, picks out clothes for you

00:18:48   from over 80 top brands and they ship them to your door

00:18:51   in this box they call a trunk, right?

00:18:53   So here's how this works.

00:18:54   You can keep this thing for up to 10 days,

00:18:56   try 'em on, feel 'em out, keep what you like

00:18:59   and just send back what you don't

00:19:00   and they just charge you for what you like.

00:19:02   It is not just a regular way to shop online.

00:19:04   Your stylist is taking the time

00:19:05   to understand your unique look

00:19:07   and if you live in Dallas, New York, LA, Chicago, or DC,

00:19:10   you can even go to one of their retail stores,

00:19:12   they call 'em club houses, to work with your stylist

00:19:15   in person for free.

00:19:16   All this is free service here,

00:19:18   and you just pay for the clothes.

00:19:19   Now this is not a subscription service.

00:19:22   You can request them to send you the trunk of clothes

00:19:25   at any frequency you want.

00:19:27   It could be never, it could be once a year,

00:19:28   it could be once a week.

00:19:30   Whatever you want, you request them

00:19:31   to send you a box of new stuff,

00:19:33   up to 10 days to figure out

00:19:34   whether you wanna keep any of it or not.

00:19:36   You keep what you want, they charge you for that,

00:19:38   you send the rest back.

00:19:39   And that's it, it's risk-free.

00:19:40   There's no subscription fee, no auto billing,

00:19:42   nothing like that.

00:19:43   - I had no idea that wasn't subscription.

00:19:44   It isn't subscription and it's for men and women by the way.

00:19:47   So make a statement at the next big event on your calendar

00:19:49   with a look that's hand picked just for you and your style.

00:19:52   Get started at Trunk Club today.

00:19:54   This is premium clothes, expert advice

00:19:56   from real human stylists with no work from you.

00:19:58   Go to trunkclub.com/atp to get started today.

00:20:02   Once again, that's trunkclub.com/atp.

00:20:06   Thanks a lot for sponsoring.

00:20:07   - I have done a terrible job with my duties

00:20:13   as chief summarizer and chief, and I have not done my homework. I've pulled a Marco,

00:20:17   and I apologize to everyone. Welcome. It's nice over here, really. It was very relaxing,

00:20:22   I will admit. So apparently something has happened with iCloud versus Dropbox for Scrivener,

00:20:28   is that how you pronounce it? Scrivener sinking? And I don't know which one of you put this

00:20:32   in the show notes, but I will kick it over to you to take over my duties and the mantle

00:20:35   of... Can you guess? Yeah, I figured it was you, but... I also didn't hear about this,

00:20:40   So this is going to be a short segment, I think.

00:20:42   Whee!

00:20:43   All right, Jon, tell us about Scrivener, if you please.

00:20:45   Send me all the news in.

00:20:46   I brought it up to the top because it ties into our past discussions about APFS and the

00:20:52   cloning of entire directory hierarchies without having to go down and copy each individual

00:20:56   file just to clone a whole tree of the file system in a copy-on-write manner, which is

00:21:01   good for Apple's file formats that are actually folders full of files.

00:21:05   Also, Scrivener is a word processing application for, like, I think it's designed mostly for

00:21:09   writing like books you can have like notes and your outlines and plot summary and character

00:21:14   information all tied together with your manuscript of the book that you're writing and everything

00:21:18   and it uses a file format that's also a directory full of files so you can have all these different

00:21:21   things it's basically like a big project format right and they have a syncing system and they

00:21:28   were going to use iCloud apparently but were not able to because it doesn't provide the features

00:21:32   they need to sync their directory full of files things they're you know they're trying to be nice

00:21:38   As much as we love iCloud, this is from this webpage we'll link in the show notes, from

00:21:42   the Scrivener people themselves.

00:21:43   Current limitations and difficulties with iCloud mean it's not great at present.

00:21:48   Not at present suited for the sort of complex package-based file format used by Scrivener.

00:21:52   You would think it would be totally suited for that because Apple has those file formats

00:21:55   too, and the next operating system is sort of the genesis of those file formats or the

00:21:59   popularization of them anyway.

00:22:02   But no.

00:22:03   Dropbox, on the other hand, which is what they do use for those things, which gives

00:22:06   them the control they need.

00:22:07   And one of their big complaints about iCloud

00:22:09   is they don't know when things will sync.

00:22:10   It's not as if they can initiate a sync

00:22:12   and get notified when it's done.

00:22:13   Things just magically appear behind the scenes

00:22:16   in sort of a background manner.

00:22:18   And that can leave this file format,

00:22:20   this folder full of files, in an unknown and inconsistent state.

00:22:24   And so what they say in this blog post

00:22:27   about these technical limitations

00:22:28   is they'd rather have users complaining

00:22:30   that they don't like manually syncing than just

00:22:33   lost four hours of writing because of structural changes.

00:22:35   like you could end up with a document.

00:22:36   Like if you sync and you think you're done

00:22:37   and you closed the lid on your laptop

00:22:38   but didn't really finish,

00:22:39   you've got like a half finished document there.

00:22:41   And that's bad.

00:22:42   And Dropbox apparently gives them the control

00:22:44   to sync the whole thing on demand,

00:22:46   let them know when it's done

00:22:47   and either have the thing entirely synced

00:22:49   or entirely in the previous state.

00:22:51   It's clear with Apple's new file system

00:22:53   that they will have at least on the local side,

00:22:56   the ability to do these operations atomically,

00:22:58   but their iCloud APIs with the sort of magic,

00:23:02   oh, you don't need to know the details,

00:23:03   just there's a folder there and eventually the documents you want will

00:23:07   appear everywhere and in the meantime there's like proxy documents that you

00:23:10   can get metadata about and so on and so forth doesn't work when what you care

00:23:13   about is not an individual file but an entire directory full of files because

00:23:18   apparently that you know the iCloud Drive and sync people weren't on the

00:23:23   same page with the people writing dot RTFD files and text editor maybe it

00:23:27   doesn't matter when you've got a half-finished dot RTFD file and they

00:23:30   assume it will sync in the rest of the way anyway this is yet another sad story

00:23:33   of a developer who desperately wants to use iCloud eventually having to go to a different

00:23:38   solution. Very often developers roll their own solutions or they go with Dropbox or they

00:23:42   go with something else. It's sort of the ongoing failure of iCloud to fulfill even

00:23:48   the most basic needs of some of the best developers of Mac applications or iOS applications for

00:23:54   that matter.

00:23:55   David Schanzer, Senior Head of Sales, Google Analytics, Google Analytics

00:23:56   File syncing, data syncing is hard in general and I think what we see is iCloud Drive, it's

00:24:02   It's another one of these examples where like,

00:24:04   when iCloud interacts with the file system,

00:24:07   it's not always great.

00:24:09   It seems like CloudKit and what they've made with CloudKit

00:24:14   is able to be really great.

00:24:16   With certain apps, with certain things that go well,

00:24:18   it's able to be really great.

00:24:19   But whenever iCloud interacts with files on disk

00:24:22   that have to exist in a file system

00:24:24   and be interacted with in other ways as well,

00:24:27   that seems like it's not even there yet.

00:24:30   And I worry about that a little bit, but, you know, we have other solutions for that.

00:24:34   We have Dropbox.

00:24:35   We have, well, Dropbox.

00:24:37   And it seems to work well for most people.

00:24:40   So I guess it's okay now.

00:24:42   You know, I guess it's okay in the grand scheme of things.

00:24:45   But it is kind of sad that Apple is still not really playing well in that game.

00:24:49   I mean, on an individual file basis, they have most of this.

00:24:52   Because the whole idea is the difference between an API where you say, "Please do sync now."

00:24:57   Like even a synchronous API where you say, make this call,

00:25:01   and when the call returns, the thing I asked to be done

00:25:03   is done.

00:25:04   That can work on an individual file basis,

00:25:05   and Cloud Kit is much more like that,

00:25:07   in that you have the control over that.

00:25:08   I'm not sure if they're complaining about Cloud Kit

00:25:10   specifically, or iCloud Drive that does it magically

00:25:12   behind their back.

00:25:13   But all of that is on an individual file.

00:25:16   There's no sort of like, oh, this entire tree of files.

00:25:19   I want you to sync all of that and tell me

00:25:21   when all of that is done, unless you're

00:25:23   going to try to do each individual one,

00:25:24   and then what about files that have been added or removed,

00:25:27   there's no API to do things at that level.

00:25:30   And the related thing that came up today,

00:25:33   this is about the Sierra beta.

00:25:35   Maybe I shouldn't say who's reporting this,

00:25:37   because I don't know what you're supposed

00:25:38   to say about the Sierra betas.

00:25:39   Is it a public beta?

00:25:40   I don't know.

00:25:41   I don't even know the rules anymore.

00:25:42   But anyway, we all know from the keynote

00:25:45   that MacOS Sierra has this feature where it will

00:25:48   automatically sync your desktop.

00:25:50   Remember that?

00:25:51   Like all the stuff in your desktop between your Macs,

00:25:53   and also apparently your documents folder.

00:25:55   I forget what it is.

00:25:56   When I installed it, it was like a checkbox or something.

00:25:57   It says, "Hey, do you want Apple to sync all this stuff

00:26:00   "in your documents folder in desktop?"

00:26:02   And I was like, "Hell no."

00:26:03   (laughing)

00:26:05   For reasons discussed in the past, like please don't.

00:26:07   Anyway, so someone we all know checked that checkbox

00:26:12   just to see what it was like, and like la-di-da,

00:26:13   it's like, especially if you have one computer, la-di-da,

00:26:16   it's syncing the stuff or whatever.

00:26:18   And at some point, they said, "All right,

00:26:21   "I wanna stop doing that," and like uncheck the checkbox.

00:26:23   And when you uncheck it, it's like that-- you know

00:26:26   the phrasing they use when you go into the iCloud preference

00:26:29   pane and uncheck contacts or something or whatever?

00:26:32   And it's like, keep in mind that the whatevers will no longer

00:26:35   be available on your Mac.

00:26:37   You know that phrasing?

00:26:38   It's like their way-- they don't want

00:26:39   to say we're going to delete your stuff,

00:26:41   but they're like, whatever you're talking about

00:26:43   will no longer be available on your Mac,

00:26:45   or some word like that.

00:26:47   And I don't know if people really know what that means.

00:26:50   I mean, it's kind of-- it's accurate,

00:26:51   but it means like, your stuff go bye-bye now.

00:26:54   Like it's not going to be there anymore.

00:26:55   We are going to delete it.

00:26:56   And this person who was checking this box is like,

00:27:00   but this is my documents folder.

00:27:02   Surely they don't mean they'll remove everything

00:27:04   in my documents folder if I uncheck this checkbox, right?

00:27:07   So this person unchecked it, and lo and behold,

00:27:10   the documents, everything in the documents folder went away.

00:27:13   Like everything.

00:27:14   Now, it's not really gone.

00:27:17   Apparently like the system is squirreling it away

00:27:19   in a different location.

00:27:20   if you know where you can find it, it's still there,

00:27:24   and you can make it come back

00:27:24   because it's synced and all that other stuff.

00:27:26   But this is probably working as designed,

00:27:29   but A, this is a terrifying design

00:27:31   because I don't think people expect it to happen.

00:27:33   I think people mostly do keep everything

00:27:35   that they care about on their desktop

00:27:36   and in their documents folder.

00:27:37   If they were to uncheck a checkbox,

00:27:38   everything disappeared,

00:27:39   even if they can get it back by rechecking,

00:27:41   the panic and the trust lost by that interaction

00:27:45   is terrible.

00:27:46   And then the other part of that is

00:27:49   If anything does go wrong and you check the checkbox

00:27:51   to try to get it back and it gives you back

00:27:52   like an old version of the file or something,

00:27:55   which could happen because sync is really hard,

00:27:58   that's gonna be just insult on top of injury.

00:28:01   It'll be terrible.

00:28:02   So I really hope they reconsider this interface.

00:28:05   And the whole idea that there's a series of checkboxes

00:28:07   that you can check that make stuff,

00:28:09   one of the most important sort of user interface decisions

00:28:13   that Dropbox made was that the files in Dropbox,

00:28:18   we'll talk about this more if we ever get to Dropbox,

00:28:20   is Project Infinite, which changes the decision,

00:28:22   but the files in your Dropbox folder

00:28:24   are just plain files on your Mac.

00:28:26   If you turn Dropbox off,

00:28:27   those files are still sitting on your Mac

00:28:29   exactly where they were.

00:28:30   If you never run Dropbox again,

00:28:32   those files are still just sitting there, right?

00:28:34   They're not, Dropbox doesn't like control those files

00:28:37   to the point where like, oh, you quit Dropbox,

00:28:39   your entire Dropbox folder is empty.

00:28:40   No, they're just files on your disk.

00:28:41   And when you turn Dropbox on,

00:28:43   it looks at its Dropbox folder and syncs them all

00:28:45   and does all this stuff or whatever,

00:28:46   when you turn it off or if Dropbox crashes in the middle,

00:28:49   everything is just exactly the way it was

00:28:50   because they're just real files on your disk.

00:28:52   And yes, that means that if you have five computers

00:28:54   all used in Dropbox,

00:28:55   you have five individual different copies

00:28:57   of those same files.

00:28:58   And if you uninstall Dropbox from all of them,

00:29:00   now all five computers have the same files on them,

00:29:02   but they're just plain files on disk.

00:29:04   Same is true of iCloud Drive,

00:29:06   but the policy of saying when you uncheck this checkbox,

00:29:09   the only way we can deal with it is to remove these things

00:29:11   from your documents folder from your desktop,

00:29:13   or just blank it out or put them into a different folder

00:29:15   even – or do anything with them at all other than to leave them exactly where they are

00:29:19   – is the wrong decision, even if it works perfectly.

00:29:23   So anyway, Sierra is a beta.

00:29:25   I don't know if this was an intended feature, a bug, anything – plenty of asterisks and

00:29:31   caveats on this.

00:29:32   I'm not slamming an unreleased operating system.

00:29:34   But I really hope when this feature does exist that it has a better policy than that, and

00:29:38   even if it does, I'm still not enabling it because I still find it really scary.

00:29:41   - Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of those problems

00:29:44   where when you have the folder full of files

00:29:47   that need to be synced, there are so many weird little

00:29:51   uncomfortable edge cases or areas where you need

00:29:54   some kind of administrator tool.

00:29:55   So for instance, any kind of merge conflict

00:29:58   or like what Dropbox does, which we learned about

00:30:01   with our discussion about file names,

00:30:03   that apparently Dropbox will create a conflict

00:30:07   if you have two different Unicode encodings

00:30:09   the same name, it will just leave them both there

00:30:12   and it'll rename one or both of them,

00:30:14   like naming conflict or something like that, right?

00:30:16   And if you have a merge conflict in Dropbox,

00:30:20   it keeps both or all three files

00:30:22   and it just renames them with parentheses at the end,

00:30:24   like oh, you know, conflict version, whatever, whatever,

00:30:26   whatever format they use.

00:30:29   And these are all kind of ugly solutions

00:30:31   to real world conditions, but these are the kind of,

00:30:34   these are the kind of like ugly results

00:30:36   that you kind of can't automate this away

00:30:40   in a way that will never lose data for people

00:30:42   or that will always do exactly what people want it to do.

00:30:45   But Apple tries to.

00:30:46   So Apple seems like they're kind of institutionally allergic

00:30:51   to adding in these kind of administrative ugliness things

00:30:56   that even when they have to be there,

00:30:58   like a case like a merge conflict on a file share thing,

00:31:01   like a Dropbox folder, Apple's solution is usually,

00:31:04   we're just gonna guess and hope that we guess right

00:31:07   through some kind of heuristics that will probably

00:31:09   be right most of the time, and we'll just deal with it.

00:31:12   Like, that'll just be the way it's dealt with,

00:31:14   and if you lose data, oh well.

00:31:16   That seems to be their approach most of the time

00:31:17   to these kind of difficult sync problems.

00:31:20   But I don't think that works very well in an environment

00:31:23   where you have people's files in folders

00:31:25   that have always worked a certain way,

00:31:26   that people are accustomed to, that people expect,

00:31:28   and that people require for their data to be there

00:31:31   and reliable and intact and everything.

00:31:33   Apple's approach to just, we're just going to avoid

00:31:36   giving you any kind of controls to manage

00:31:38   the actual complexity of this problem.

00:31:40   I don't think that works for files.

00:31:42   - One of the advancements of CloudKit

00:31:44   was that it would delegate to the application

00:31:46   to make this decision, to say,

00:31:47   CloudKit will let you know that there is a conflict

00:31:50   and you'll get this call back

00:31:51   and it's up to you what to do about it.

00:31:52   And you could decide in your application,

00:31:54   I'm just gonna keep all three copies

00:31:55   and rename them with parentheses, right?

00:31:58   This situation with the iCloud drive or whatever,

00:32:01   the syncing of the desktop stuff,

00:32:03   is, like I said, it's more of a policy decision of saying,

00:32:05   what should we do when they uncheck that box?

00:32:07   I think the right decision when they uncheck that box

00:32:09   is to just leave everything exactly the way it is on disk

00:32:11   and not mess with it anymore.

00:32:12   But the decision they're making is kind of the same decision

00:32:15   they make for contacts or all the other things

00:32:18   that you can check and uncheck in the iCloud preference pane.

00:32:21   Well, sometimes in the iCloud preference pane,

00:32:23   they ask you, should we remove the ones

00:32:24   or leave them on your Mac?

00:32:25   They should ask the same thing for the documents, which again,

00:32:27   which makes it maybe this is an intentional feature.

00:32:29   They just haven't gotten around to change that dialog box

00:32:31   in that way.

00:32:32   but it just goes to show that there are lots of things

00:32:35   that you can do to confuse and frighten the user.

00:32:38   And perhaps the worst one is making all their stuff

00:32:40   apparently disappear.

00:32:41   Even if it's all safely preserved,

00:32:42   both locally in a different folder that they renamed

00:32:45   and on the cloud, that moment of trust,

00:32:48   you know, of you losing the user's trust

00:32:50   is gonna make them not wanna use that product anymore.

00:32:52   And Dropbox with the renaming,

00:32:53   with the garbage files and everything,

00:32:55   my experience is that happens to people

00:32:57   and they don't even notice until like a month later.

00:32:59   Like what is this whatever's conflicted copy file here?

00:33:02   I don't quite understand that,

00:33:03   but the reason they didn't notice is because

00:33:06   it didn't actually delete anything.

00:33:07   It always fails in a way that gives you extra data,

00:33:12   extra garbage files of like,

00:33:13   well, I've got the file that I expected

00:33:14   and I've got two more that I didn't expect.

00:33:16   But you've got all three versions of the file.

00:33:18   And if one of them is named differently

00:33:19   and you can't figure it out,

00:33:20   like you go there and you sort by name

00:33:21   and you'll find there's a bunch of other files.

00:33:23   You'll find your stuff.

00:33:24   Like it won't, as opposed to trying to pick

00:33:27   correct file for you or presenting some dialogue for you to choose how to resolve the conflict

00:33:33   when you don't have enough information to do that. So Dropbox's solution is not great for a lot of

00:33:38   situations where you don't want to make a bunch of garbage files, but it's a good choice for just

00:33:43   sort of a generic bin full of, you know, folder full of files without any specific purpose,

00:33:49   because it, you know, their strategy is the worst thing we can do is lose someone's data.

00:33:56   it's much better to give them a bunch of garbage files than to make stuff disappear.

00:34:00   Why do you think that Google Drive and like OneDrive and to some degree Box haven't tried

00:34:08   to be that like everything sync engine that Dropbox has seemed to become?

00:34:12   They are trying. They have different policies. Like I think Google Drive is very similar to

00:34:17   Dropbox. I haven't actually used OneDrive, but all of them, oh, all these products including

00:34:22   including Dropbox now with the Project Infinite thing are dancing around the other trade-off.

00:34:26   Like Dropbox's thing of, hey, every single file is on your Mac and we will sync it.

00:34:31   And then they added Selective Sync many years ago where you can choose which files you want

00:34:35   to sync.

00:34:36   Dropbox Infinite is, all right, we'll make it look like the files -- this is my understanding,

00:34:41   I don't actually use it -- we'll make it look like the files are on your Mac, but really

00:34:44   they'll be in the cloud.

00:34:45   Which makes a lot of sense in a pervasively network-connected office, and it'll let you

00:34:49   like pin, I'm assuming it will let you pin files to your Mac so they don't go away.

00:34:54   So you can have basically more stuff in your Dropbox than will fit on your Mac.

00:34:59   Or like on-demand selective sync, sort of like you're paging in the files from the cloud

00:35:03   onto your Mac as you use them and as you don't use them they don't need to be on your Mac.

00:35:08   Or you could say never bring this all down on my Mac, just sort of access it over the

00:35:11   network.

00:35:12   It's sort of a blending of NFS mounts and Dropbox complete copying of files and all

00:35:17   other stuff and it does that with a kernel extension, there's a whole article about it

00:35:20   on Dropbox's thing.

00:35:23   It's very interesting but it's a very different tradeoff than Dropbox makes and it's much

00:35:26   more dangerous because if they mess anything up there, bad things can happen.

00:35:30   Like the reassurance of Dropbox, like I said, is that you can quit the Dropbox app, never

00:35:35   relaunch it again and everything in that Dropbox folder is exactly, you know, what you see

00:35:38   is what's there.

00:35:39   None of those files are fake, none of them are proxy files that are all there, they're

00:35:42   all taking up disk space on your Mac.

00:35:44   You don't have to wonder which ones are where.

00:35:48   And you can move things in and out of it.

00:35:50   They're not constrained in any way.

00:35:52   They don't have weird permissions on them.

00:35:53   They're just plain old files.

00:35:55   And Project Infinite takes that away in exchange for you not having to deal with selective

00:35:59   sync and have you fill up your disk because someone in a shared folder puts a ton of stuff

00:36:04   in there and all sorts of other downsides of the traditional Dropbox model.

00:36:08   But it's a much higher degree of difficulty.

00:36:10   And I think a lot of the other vendors went right for that higher degree of difficulty

00:36:14   and never sort of started off as simple as Dropbox.

00:36:17   The advantage Dropbox had, I think,

00:36:18   is that even before Selective Sync,

00:36:20   it was a very simple user model that people could understand,

00:36:24   didn't have a lot of features, was so simple,

00:36:26   it could be implemented by a bunch of Python scripts,

00:36:28   for crying out loud.

00:36:29   And I think Dropbox built a lot of trust and goodwill

00:36:34   with that simple model, and now they can expand,

00:36:36   like as they expand to Selective Sync,

00:36:38   that didn't cause people to flee

00:36:39   'cause it was too confusing,

00:36:40   'cause it was just a tweak of the thing they understood.

00:36:42   We'll see if Project Infinite is a bridge too far, but I think that's the big advantage

00:36:45   that Dropbox had that I think big companies like Google and Microsoft can't help but

00:36:49   immediately implement all the complicated features.

00:36:53   Do you plan on trying Dropbox Infinite?

00:36:55   I doubt it.

00:36:57   I mean, I'm not dissatisfied with the plain Dropbox.

00:37:01   I have a lot of disk space.

00:37:02   I do use SelectiveSync sometimes to keep things, you know, from getting too big, because I

00:37:07   do have some shared folders, and I really hate Dropbox's policy of like, "Shared

00:37:10   count towards your quota, which is ridiculous because you know they're only storing one

00:37:13   copy of this stuff server-side.

00:37:16   Probably won't, especially since it uses a kernel extension, but I will be curious about

00:37:19   it, so I won't rule it out.

00:37:20   >> Yeah, I don't actually plan to try it, honestly.

00:37:24   I mean, maybe if, you know, on a laptop I might try it on my main computer, I definitely

00:37:29   wouldn't.

00:37:30   I'd rather just buy more hard drive space and just suck it up than run those risks and

00:37:34   everything.

00:37:35   But on a laptop, maybe.

00:37:36   Yeah, I don't have that much stuff in my Dropbox. Well, I have nine

00:37:44   gigs available of which I've used a little over half of it. So there's, I mean,

00:37:48   there's what, four gigs, a little more, maybe even five gigs in there. But it's

00:37:52   not that much, and even the smallest laptop can grab all of that. I'm still on

00:37:58   a free Dropbox plan. I haven't had a need to pay for it. I'm not opposed to paying

00:38:02   I just haven't had the need to pay for it, so.

00:38:05   - I actually just started paying for it at WWDC this year.

00:38:09   Like that's, I finally won it.

00:38:11   - So what put you over the edge?

00:38:13   - I wanted an easy way to quickly have a backup

00:38:17   of the podcast files that we had recorded there,

00:38:21   and it was just easier than setting up something else

00:38:24   at that moment in the very brief time

00:38:26   that I was sitting in the fast ethernet area of Moscone.

00:38:30   - Fair enough.

00:38:31   - And I thought, you know what, I kept hitting it,

00:38:32   'cause I only had the regular two gig limit

00:38:34   plus a couple hundred megs for a minute,

00:38:36   but I kept running into that all the time

00:38:38   with just transferring podcast files back and forth.

00:38:40   I'm like, you know, it's about time.

00:38:42   Let me actually finally pay for this product

00:38:45   that I've been using and running my business on

00:38:46   for literally years.

00:38:48   - Yeah, makes sense.

00:38:50   And I also kinda like that the Synology has,

00:38:54   like Cloud Sync or something like that,

00:38:55   which puts a copy of Dropbox on the Synology,

00:38:58   which is neat as another backup.

00:39:00   - Oh, I didn't know that.

00:39:00   - Yeah, I think it's called Cloud Sync.

00:39:02   There's one of the apps that you can install.

00:39:04   I'll have to get you the name after the show.

00:39:08   One of the apps you can install

00:39:10   basically acts as another Dropbox client.

00:39:12   And so if you wanted to,

00:39:13   you could have an additional backup

00:39:15   of your Dropbox sitting on your Synology.

00:39:18   - Our second sponsor this week is Eero.

00:39:23   Go to eero.com, that's E-E-R-O dot com slash ATP.

00:39:28   Now imagine if your electricity

00:39:29   didn't reach certain parts of the house,

00:39:31   or were intermittent in certain parts of the house.

00:39:33   That would be ridiculous, right?

00:39:34   But this is the status quo for WiFi,

00:39:35   with dead zones and buffering affecting far too many of us.

00:39:39   Eero is designed to change all of this.

00:39:41   Eero manufactures a single device.

00:39:43   It's a small, elegant box about the size of an Apple TV,

00:39:47   and it's a WiFi router.

00:39:49   And the idea is, with the help of their Dead Simple app,

00:39:52   you put multiple Eero devices in your home.

00:39:55   The first one replaces your router.

00:39:57   It acts as the regular router.

00:39:58   So you plug in Ethernet to it for your internet connection,

00:40:01   and you plug it into your cable modem or your DSL modem,

00:40:03   and that's it.

00:40:04   And then, you can plug in any number of additional Eros

00:40:07   just in regular outlets.

00:40:08   You don't have to wire them to your connection.

00:40:09   You just plug them into an electric outlet.

00:40:11   And then they all connect wirelessly to each other

00:40:13   and form a mesh network that blankets your home

00:40:16   in fast, reliable Wi-Fi.

00:40:18   Now, the single router model just doesn't work.

00:40:21   We all know this.

00:40:22   We've all tried single routers,

00:40:24   especially many of them that advertise long range

00:40:26   are covered in a bunch of ugly antennas,

00:40:28   and they always say that they're gonna cover

00:40:30   your whole house, and they never do.

00:40:32   There's always low reception zones,

00:40:34   or slow zones, or dead zones, always.

00:40:37   What you need is a distributed system

00:40:39   with multiple access points.

00:40:40   That's what Eero gives you.

00:40:42   It is really fast and easy to set up,

00:40:44   super easy to use.

00:40:46   The devices, the actual Eero routers are nice and small,

00:40:49   and you don't have to wire any of them

00:40:50   except the very first one

00:40:51   to your actual internet connection,

00:40:52   and they have incredible support if you need it.

00:40:54   Of course, it's all encrypted.

00:40:56   It's all fast, it is really a great solution

00:40:59   to this problem.

00:41:01   They recommend one Eero for every roughly

00:41:03   thousand square feet, so a typical US home

00:41:05   is probably gonna have two or three of them.

00:41:07   A three pack is a great starting point.

00:41:09   Check it out today, go to eero.com,

00:41:11   that's E-E-R-O.com/ATP.

00:41:15   If you enter code ATP, you will get free overnight shipping.

00:41:19   Once again, eero.com, E-E-R-O.com/ATP,

00:41:24   and use overnight shipping for free with code ATP.

00:41:27   Thanks a lot to Eero for sponsoring our show once again.

00:41:30   (upbeat music)

00:41:33   - Apparently Hackintoshes are still a thing

00:41:37   and Mike Rundle just built one.

00:41:39   And that's about the extent of my knowledge

00:41:40   on this scenario.

00:41:41   So John, tell us about this.

00:41:43   - Yeah, don't call it a comeback.

00:41:44   People are always doing the Hackintosh thing.

00:41:47   It came up again because someone did another blog post

00:41:49   about it and as we've been talking about for weeks

00:41:52   the show about how it's basically the wrong time to buy any Mac because they're all woefully out

00:41:56   of date with the exception of the 5k iMac maybe and I guess the little MacBook I suppose because

00:42:01   that's fairly up to date but everything else is just has incredibly old hardware there's been

00:42:06   lots of snarky tweets about it involved in the store I think someone uh Marco retweeted somebody

00:42:10   saying uh used to be that you made a hackintosh to get yourself a cheap Macintosh now you do a

00:42:17   hackintosh just so you can run Mac OS on hardware that is not insanely outdated like it's not it's

00:42:22   It's not a money-saving move, and it's not even like I want to build this amazing

00:42:26   beast of a box type of move.

00:42:28   It's more like I just want to run my preferred operating system on hardware that was made

00:42:35   in the past year or two.

00:42:37   And so that's Apple's fault for letting that stuff go by.

00:42:40   But every time someone builds one of these Hackintosh people are amazed that you can

00:42:43   essentially build a PC, which is what modern Macs are when you get down to brass tacks

00:42:48   in terms of the components for an incredibly small amount of money.

00:42:52   So this was a $1200 hackintosh that's like, trumps any computer you could buy from Apple

00:42:56   at any price for the most part.

00:43:00   Particularly galling are things like how cheap the RAM can be.

00:43:03   Now it's not apples to apples, but like, "Oh, well the Mac Pro has ECC RAM and that's why

00:43:07   it costs more money," and all these other excuses for why the RAM is so much more expensive.

00:43:11   But Will Cosgrove tweeted just before the show, "Apple charges $1300 for 64GB of DDR3

00:43:17   for the Mac Pro, you can get 64 gigabytes of DDR4 RAM

00:43:22   for $275, so that is $275 versus $1300.

00:43:28   So the same amount of RAM, just drop the ECC.

00:43:31   - And granted it is ECC versus not,

00:43:33   but that does affect the price, but not that much.

00:43:36   - Yeah, exactly, I mean it's nonsensical.

00:43:38   Like the price of the Mac Pro is crazy fast.

00:43:41   - Well I will say though, with this particular case,

00:43:43   this particular Hackintosh, it is not using the Xeon,

00:43:47   it is not using the server chipset,

00:43:49   it is not using ECC RAM.

00:43:51   It is really an iMac, not a Mac Pro comparison here.

00:43:55   This, and there, it is still a good comparison to make.

00:43:59   However, this is not making a very cheap Mac Pro,

00:44:02   this is making a very cheap iMac.

00:44:03   - But it's way faster than the Mac Pro though,

00:44:05   in every measurable way, so it doesn't really matter.

00:44:08   - Isn't it literally the exact same CPU

00:44:09   that's sold in the 5K iMac?

00:44:11   - Probably, I mean, the 4, the 5K iMac is faster

00:44:13   than the Mac Pro, like, you know,

00:44:14   except for in massively parallel things

00:44:16   where you got a 12 core blah blah blah.

00:44:17   I mean, this is a $1200 computer.

00:44:19   - Agreed, however, it is an insult to the iMac,

00:44:22   not the Mac Pro.

00:44:23   - Yeah, well, it's an insult to Apple's entire line.

00:44:25   And this particular Hackintosh, whatever,

00:44:27   you can find a million different Hackintosh builds,

00:44:29   you can build it, that's the whole point of Hackintosh,

00:44:30   is you can build it any way you want.

00:44:32   And so a lot of people have been asking us

00:44:35   whether we would ever do a Hackintosh

00:44:37   or whether this is something we've considered

00:44:38   because we've been complaining so much about

00:44:40   the outdated Apple hardware.

00:44:42   And I'll speak for myself and say,

00:44:45   I look at this and it makes me sad about Apple's product line, but I had never really considered

00:44:49   making them on myself because I don't want to have to deal with any of the stuff that

00:44:54   Hackintosh has to deal with.

00:44:56   They have to deal with a lot of the stuff because Apple doesn't make an operating system

00:45:00   for just sort of any sort of hardware.

00:45:01   So they have to carefully match their hardware to what Apple provides drivers for or to what

00:45:07   they can get drivers for and it's become even harder with the driver signing thing and everything.

00:45:12   features, lots of major features, just don't work on the hackintosh because they haven't figured out

00:45:17   how to convince the operating system to make hardware that is similar enough to mac hardware

00:45:24   that things will work. In particular, one that really stood out to me in this particular hackintosh

00:45:27   story is they still haven't gotten iMessage working and that's not like a minor feature.

00:45:30   Yeah, that's a big message.

00:45:31   iMessage is a pretty like, would you like to use a mac? But by the way, you can't use iMessage. And

00:45:36   forget about all the modern stuff that it requires, like handoff continuity or, you know, the touch

00:45:41   Touch ID sensor that will appear on MacBook someday.

00:45:43   Forget about that stuff, because that's no way they're going to be able to do that.

00:45:46   They're not going to be able to get a secure enclave from Apple and stick it into their

00:45:49   PC and get the stuff to work.

00:45:52   The amount of things that just don't work that make your Mac not really a Mac is a growing

00:45:56   list of things.

00:45:57   Not that they're doing it to stop hack and dodges, but Apple keeps adding to that list.

00:46:02   And I don't want to deal with any of that.

00:46:03   I just want it to work.

00:46:05   I don't want to do a point update and have my machine not boot because the video drivers

00:46:08   don't work anymore.

00:46:09   I don't want to have to worry about any of that stuff.

00:46:10   I just want a really good, big, fast, and I'm willing to pay much more money for the

00:46:15   privilege of someone figuring this all out ahead of time and making me, and this is a

00:46:19   nice piece of hardware that works, and this is before I get into like how ugly these boxes

00:46:23   are and how much noise they might make and all the other, and the fact that you have

00:46:28   to build it yourself and like I would sooner build myself a gaming PC than I would a hackintosh.

00:46:34   Like gaming PC I've come really close to building many times in my various states of frustration,

00:46:38   But Hackintosh, never for me.

00:46:41   Casey?

00:46:42   Oh, would I build one?

00:46:44   Hell no.

00:46:45   Absolutely not.

00:46:46   And you built PCs before, right?

00:46:47   Oh yeah, oh yeah.

00:46:49   For a long time.

00:46:50   Basically, up until the time I started using Thinkpads exclusively, which was right before

00:46:54   I started using Macbooks exclusively, which was before I started using the iMac, I was

00:47:00   always building PCs.

00:47:01   Always, always, always, always.

00:47:03   And first of all, I'm so far out of the game, so to speak, like, I wouldn't even know where

00:47:07   to begin.

00:47:08   understand the components that are necessary for modern personal computer, but I don't know what

00:47:13   what processors are popular these days. I don't know what memory is the right memory to choose,

00:47:19   and obviously I could figure this out, but I just don't have the patience, the time, or the energy

00:47:24   for it. This is a thing, especially a computer where I only buy one once every like four to

00:47:29   eight years, I would much rather throw money at the problem and just have Apple fix it for me.

00:47:37   That being said, the whole reason we're talking about this is because Apple's doing a very good

00:47:41   job of avoiding taking our money. Well, not us. Maybe John, not Marco and I necessarily. But

00:47:47   Apple's really working hard at not updating things, except the MacBook Adorable. And to some

00:47:55   degree, the iMac, like you guys said earlier, what's the holdup? I don't get it.

00:48:01   - Yeah, I mean, there was a very long span in my life

00:48:06   where I would gladly have built a Hackintosh.

00:48:09   I was building my own PCs at the time,

00:48:11   and it's just like building a PC

00:48:13   with a little bit more hassle.

00:48:14   But I agree with what Jon said that in the era of,

00:48:19   you have drivers signing now,

00:48:21   you have possible iMessage hiccups

00:48:23   with certain Hackintosh setups and handoff and stuff

00:48:26   being tricky to get working

00:48:28   'cause of the various Wi-Fi chip hacks they do,

00:48:30   it seems like we are pretty clearly moving towards a point

00:48:35   in probably the near future where Hackintoshes

00:48:39   won't work anymore.

00:48:40   - Yeah.

00:48:41   - Or at least enough features won't work on them

00:48:45   that the trade-off between pain in the buttery

00:48:49   and whatever you're saving or gaining by having one,

00:48:52   that might switch the other way.

00:48:54   Because as Apple increases the pain in the buttery

00:48:57   and the limitations and everything else,

00:48:59   Eventually, it's not worth it anymore,

00:49:02   or at least for certain people,

00:49:03   it won't be worth it anymore.

00:49:05   So I just feel like in my current set of priorities,

00:49:09   I'm able to trade money for time to a certain degree.

00:49:15   And when I was younger,

00:49:15   like when I was in college and high school,

00:49:17   building these PCs for myself and my friends,

00:49:19   we had nothing but time, but we had very little money.

00:49:23   So it made way more sense then to build our own PCs

00:49:27   and deal with all the massive amounts of headaches

00:49:31   and time sinks and crap that we had to deal with

00:49:33   to build our own PCs and keep them running

00:49:35   and keep them stable and keep them upgraded.

00:49:37   Like, it was a massive time sink for me and my friends.

00:49:41   But we did it because, again, that time-money continuum,

00:49:45   the balance was different for us back then.

00:49:47   Now, I think all of us involved back then

00:49:51   would all just buy a computer from Apple

00:49:54   and just be done with it and not have to worry about it

00:49:56   because quite frankly we don't have the time

00:49:59   to worry about it and we do have a little bit

00:50:00   of money to spend on them so we can do that instead.

00:50:03   So it all depends on whether it's worth it to you

00:50:05   and as the environment shifts,

00:50:07   whether it's worth it will shift too.

00:50:09   In this case, if Apple really does horribly

00:50:14   neglect the Mac line for longer, for a lot longer,

00:50:19   then I will probably be tempted

00:50:22   just to get more performance.

00:50:25   In this particular case, I was disappointed to see that

00:50:27   the high-end consumer desktop chips,

00:50:31   and their platforms that are being used

00:50:33   in this particular article, the Mike Rundle article,

00:50:36   it's the exact same chip that's available in the 5K iMac,

00:50:39   in the high-end configuration,

00:50:40   the 4 gigahertz Skylake i7.

00:50:43   So it's not, this was not a case of doing something

00:50:46   that Apple won't sell you, really.

00:50:48   This was more of a case of just getting

00:50:50   what Apple will sell you, but for way less money.

00:50:53   And that's cool, and there's a huge market for that

00:50:55   that I totally understand.

00:50:57   But I don't think the trade-off will be worth it to me

00:50:59   in my current state of time versus money.

00:51:02   What would be worth it, possibly in the future,

00:51:04   is if Apple stops selling the Mac Pro.

00:51:07   And for some reason, OS X keeps supporting its hardware.

00:51:09   And then I can get an eight or 12 or 16 core high-end

00:51:14   Xeon workstation running Mac OS X,

00:51:18   and Apple won't sell me one.

00:51:20   That would be very interesting to me.

00:51:21   But today, it's just not, I don't know,

00:51:24   the balance for me isn't there today.

00:51:27   - Yeah, I think we're gonna get MacBook Pro,

00:51:28   not that this is unique,

00:51:29   but I think we're gonna get MacBook Pro updates

00:51:31   before the end of the year.

00:51:33   And I think there's a decent shot

00:51:34   we'll get a stupid Mac Pro update

00:51:36   before the end of the year.

00:51:37   I don't think it's dead, based on no facts, just a guess.

00:51:40   I don't think it's dead.

00:51:42   But I should, to go back to Hackintosh specifically

00:51:44   for a moment, when I was debating,

00:51:47   very publicly with you, Marco,

00:51:49   whether or not I should get a Mac.

00:51:52   This is 2008-ish, I believe.

00:51:54   And we were having this debate via re-blogs

00:51:58   of each other's posts on Tumblr.

00:52:00   What I ended up doing was taking my then ThinkPad T30,

00:52:05   I believe it was, and putting a Hackintosh version

00:52:10   of Leopard, I believe it was at the time,

00:52:12   I might have that wrong, and running it for a few days

00:52:14   just to see if I liked OS X.

00:52:17   And to my recollection, Wi-Fi didn't work, but onboard

00:52:21   Ethernet did.

00:52:22   And just about everything else did, too.

00:52:25   Maybe sound didn't, actually.

00:52:26   I don't recall.

00:52:27   But I remember vividly that Wi-Fi didn't work, which was a

00:52:29   major bummer.

00:52:30   But I really liked it.

00:52:33   And it was relatively pain-free to do.

00:52:36   I think I acquired some version of OS X that had been

00:52:43   prepared for this sort of use.

00:52:45   And that's what I used to install it, and it worked pretty darn well.

00:52:50   And if it wasn't for that, I probably still would have bought the Mac anyway, but I felt

00:52:54   a lot more confident in doing so.

00:52:56   But just like you said, you hit the nail on the head.

00:52:59   Today, the three of us can trade money for time, if you will.

00:53:03   And when we were in college and kids, when we were building computers, except John, we

00:53:08   had plenty of time to kill and not a lot of money.

00:53:11   So it's funny how things change.

00:53:12   It's not just the time too, it's like thinking of your poor haunted iMac that could die at

00:53:17   any second. What you're also paying for is someone to blame.

00:53:22   Yeah, it's true.

00:53:24   If your computer goes wonky, you have someone to blame and that's Apple. If your computer

00:53:27   continues to be wonky and continues to behave badly, you can keep bringing it back to Genius

00:53:31   Bar and eventually replace it with an all new computer. Not that that's a fun thing

00:53:34   to do, it's still a pain in the butt, but if you build your own Hackintosh and it starts

00:53:38   being wonky, you have no one to go to. You certainly can't go to Apple. You can't go

00:53:42   to your motherboard manufacturer. You can't go to your GPU vendor. You can't go to the

00:53:47   company that made the case. You can't go to the monitor vendor. Like, you've just got

00:53:50   yourself. And so, Hackintoshes, I mean, they're way cheaper, but they're not free. So that's,

00:53:56   you know, that's potentially a thousand or more dollars that you spent on something.

00:54:01   And if it stops working or starts being weird in some way, unless it is a hardware fault,

00:54:06   "Oh, my GPU died and my CPU died."

00:54:08   Like if it just starts being flaky,

00:54:10   because again, it's Hackintosh,

00:54:11   it's running an unsupported hardware configuration

00:54:13   that you're trying to hack to get to work.

00:54:15   And by the way, it's not like iMessage

00:54:16   doesn't work at all.

00:54:17   There are these strange incantations

00:54:19   to try to get it to work by faking it out,

00:54:20   but it's very sketchy.

00:54:21   If things start to act weird, you've got no one to blame.

00:54:25   And that's not tenable.

00:54:26   Like maybe, maybe if you lived by yourself

00:54:30   and you could handle your main computer

00:54:32   not working or being flaky some of the time,

00:54:35   maybe, or it was like a secondary computer,

00:54:36   maybe you could handle that.

00:54:37   But in any sort of family environment

00:54:39   where any other person is relying on that computer

00:54:42   to be a computer, to be able to sit down in front of it

00:54:46   and like do your photos or whatever,

00:54:47   and you know, like to do stuff on that computer

00:54:50   and it doesn't work,

00:54:52   and you're the one who built this computer

00:54:54   and you have no one to blame,

00:54:56   it's at that point you will say,

00:54:57   I would love to be able to pay

00:54:59   to have someone to blame for this other than me,

00:55:01   because you don't want everyone looking at you and saying,

00:55:04   Why does this computer that you wasted all this time on not work anymore?

00:55:09   And you're just like, "Eh," you know, or "Why does it do this weird thing?"

00:55:11   or whatever.

00:55:12   So I think of that just as much as like the time I would spend tinkering.

00:55:16   I think of being, having a single company who stands behind the supposed functionality

00:55:23   of the entire thing.

00:55:24   And I mean the entire thing.

00:55:25   Like if something, you know, if something is wonky about it, like if Wi-Fi works intermittently

00:55:31   or whatever, I don't have to prove that the Wi-Fi chipset or whatever is bad and go to

00:55:38   that manufacturer and get them to replace it and plug it in and realize it's a conflict

00:55:42   between the motherboard and this other…

00:55:44   I don't have to deal with any of that.

00:55:45   I have to deal with the hassle.

00:55:46   It's still a hassle to go to the Apple Store, especially if you're logging a big computer

00:55:49   with you.

00:55:50   You still have to probably go back three times, but eventually you'll get some kind of satisfaction,

00:55:53   whereas if you built it yourself, at a certain point you're just like, "Sell the parts

00:55:58   off individually and try again?"

00:55:59   It's really grim.

00:56:00   (laughing)

00:56:01   Yeah, I mean, I've been, like as I said,

00:56:04   I built a good number of computers for myself

00:56:06   and my friends throughout high school and college,

00:56:08   and I've been in that position of something doesn't work,

00:56:12   especially if it's not even on my computer,

00:56:14   it usually wasn't, something doesn't work

00:56:16   on one of my friends' computers,

00:56:17   or worse, on a computer that somebody paid me

00:56:20   a little bit of money to build for them.

00:56:23   And there's just, it's just an endless sinkhole

00:56:27   of time and possibly my own money trying to resolve this problem, meanwhile dealing with

00:56:34   a very upset person who is very annoyed that this computer that they paid a good amount

00:56:40   of money to, even though I didn't get most of it, but that they paid a good amount of

00:56:42   money for all the parts and everything, and I told them I could do it, and then something

00:56:45   goes wrong and I'm on the hook for it. It sucks. And I gladly would have paid to have

00:56:51   somebody else deal with it, but at the time I didn't have a lot of money. That was the

00:56:55   the whole reason I was doing this,

00:56:56   and there was nobody that I even could have paid

00:56:57   to help out, and it was horrible.

00:56:59   - On the flip side of this, Mike Rundle, Hackintosh here,

00:57:02   the biggest feature for me is not the fact

00:57:04   that it's always a cheaper iMac,

00:57:05   is that he could pick any GPU that he wanted

00:57:07   to put in there, and he put in a better one

00:57:09   that's in the iMac, and he could have put

00:57:11   an even better one there, and in fact,

00:57:12   he can change his mind two years later

00:57:13   and get an even better GPU, and that's an option

00:57:16   Apple doesn't give you at all.

00:57:17   Apple will give you that CPU that will not give you

00:57:19   this GPU or the option to put in a better one.

00:57:22   - I mean, this sounds impressive,

00:57:23   but I agree that without iMessage on this Mac,

00:57:28   no thanks, hard pass.

00:57:29   - Well yeah, it's this balance, right?

00:57:33   And I think what we're all saying is,

00:57:35   we all would have reasons why we might want

00:57:37   to build one of these things if things got worse.

00:57:40   As the conditions change, we might build

00:57:42   Hackintoshes in three years or something, who knows?

00:57:45   We have no idea what we'll hold,

00:57:48   but if your priorities are just very slightly different,

00:57:53   or if your needs are just very slightly different from us,

00:57:55   you could very easily fall on the other side

00:57:57   of that balance and this could make total sense for you.

00:58:00   - Yeah.

00:58:01   Yeah, there's a list of things that don't work.

00:58:02   Like AirDrop I use a lot and I think I'm the AirDrop unicorn

00:58:06   because it almost always works for me.

00:58:09   - Honestly, I have very good luck with AirDrop as well.

00:58:12   - Yeah, all his audio doesn't work.

00:58:14   - Like the first item, like you mentioned before, Casey,

00:58:15   I think everything worked when I installed that,

00:58:17   except for Wi-Fi, oh yeah, and audio.

00:58:19   It's like, what is this, Linux?

00:58:21   (laughing)

00:58:23   - Minor features like Wi-Fi and audio don't work,

00:58:25   but otherwise it's perfect. - So true, so true.

00:58:27   - Like, audio doesn't work, you have a non-functional

00:58:29   computer, it's like saying, "My TV's great,"

00:58:31   it's just, there's no sound.

00:58:33   - It's so true.

00:58:34   I genuinely had forgotten that audio maybe didn't work,

00:58:37   but yeah, looking at this list, audio doesn't work,

00:58:40   community and handoff, continuity and handoff don't work.

00:58:42   Those I don't use that much.

00:58:44   iMessage doesn't work, I'm out.

00:58:46   AirDrop doesn't work, I'm out again.

00:58:47   Well, I was already out with audio, come to think of it, but--

00:58:50   - And Touch ID doesn't work, like, that's gonna be, like,

00:58:52   Apple just keeps accumulating these things.

00:58:54   I think once people get used to unlocking their laptop

00:58:56   with Touch ID, a Hackintosh is gonna,

00:58:58   it's like having a Hackintosh with no Wi-Fi.

00:59:01   Before Wi-Fi was a big deal,

00:59:02   it was just added on a toilet seat to iMacs,

00:59:04   or iBooks rather, and it's like,

00:59:05   well, you know, Wi-Fi doesn't work, but who uses that?

00:59:08   And at a certain point, like, Wi-Fi doesn't work,

00:59:09   this is junk, throw it away.

00:59:11   Like, I can't, a laptop without Wi-Fi is pointless, right?

00:59:14   Touch ID and features like that

00:59:15   will probably eventually feel like that.

00:59:17   Like, I'm not gonna type in my password

00:59:18   every time I unlock my computer.

00:59:20   That's barbaric.

00:59:21   And so, and you can be pretty sure

00:59:24   that it's gonna be very difficult

00:59:26   to simulate the secure enclave touch ID hardware

00:59:30   or whatever that Apple adds to their laptops.

00:59:32   Even if you can somehow source that part from the Far East

00:59:35   and get it installed in your Hackintosh,

00:59:37   that's a hell of a challenge.

00:59:39   We are sponsored by Wonder Capital,

00:59:42   that's W-U-N-D-E-R, Capital.

00:59:45   You've probably seen the explosive growth

00:59:46   in residential solar panel installations.

00:59:49   Now, small and medium-sized businesses want to go solar too, but financing for commercial

00:59:54   solar isn't available to businesses unless they have investment-grade credit.

00:59:58   Wonder Capital, a Techstars-backed company in Boulder, Colorado, is helping to solve

01:00:01   that problem by financing solar panel installations for small and medium-sized businesses.

01:00:06   They've originated over $25 million worth of solar project this year alone.

01:00:12   If you qualify as an SEC-accredited investor, Wonder Capital offers investments in their

01:00:16   solar funds.

01:00:18   investment goes directly to helping US businesses install solar PV panels. As they repay their

01:00:24   loans to Wonder, you receive monthly interest payments. And Wonder Capital doesn't take

01:00:28   any fees for investing your money. Wonder Capital has two funds available. The Wonder

01:00:33   Income Fund, which targets a return of 6% per year during a 10-year period, and the

01:00:38   Wonder Bridge Fund, which targets a return of 11% per year during a 2-year period. Both

01:00:43   funds are asset backed by the solar panels themselves, and please keep in mind that past

01:00:47   performance is not an indicator of future returns. Learn more about Wonder Capital at

01:00:52   wondercapital.com/atp. That's W-U-N-D-E-R capital dot com slash ATP. Wonder Capital.

01:01:01   Do well and do good.

01:01:06   Speaking of Hackintoshes, I was recalling from the olden days when you two probably

01:01:11   weren't born yet, one of the original Hackintosh type things. In the early days of the Mac,

01:01:17   it was very difficult to clone it, not the least of us, because you needed the Mac ROM.

01:01:22   Most of the Mac toolbox was on the ROM chip and that was proprietary Apple and you couldn't

01:01:26   really buy that part.

01:01:27   So it was very difficult to have any sort of legitimate commercial business selling

01:01:31   Mac clones because you couldn't have a Mac without that ROM.

01:01:34   And then on top of that all the other problems.

01:01:35   But there was one company that used to advertise in Mac magazines, like a legitimate company

01:01:40   I think they were in Australia, maybe, called Outbound.

01:01:43   I'm trying to Google for it while you're going through the last ad.

01:01:47   And my recollection is they would basically get around the cloning by buying actual real

01:01:53   Apple stuff or requiring you to buy them or whatever and repackaging it.

01:01:58   So they would take like a Mac Plus motherboard or a Mac SE motherboard and put it into kind

01:02:01   of a laptop shape with a big battery and everything.

01:02:04   So they were very, very expensive.

01:02:05   You weren't saving any money, but you could buy a basically real Macintosh as far as the

01:02:11   operating system was concerned, in a case not made by Apple, simply by adding a tremendous

01:02:16   amount of cost. It's almost kind of like when you buy a tuner car where you're like,

01:02:19   "Just buy a basic Mustang and then add $100,000." You start with the Mustang as delivered to

01:02:26   you by Ford and then you just add lots of money. So you start with a Mac SE or a Mac

01:02:29   Plus and then they just take out the insides, repackage them in a different thing and sell

01:02:33   you the new thing and then add money on top of that.

01:02:36   Kind of like the mod book people from a few years back, right?

01:02:39   Yeah, similar to that, but going from a desktop computer to a laptop is quite a transition.

01:02:44   Then they had the really weird pointing device that looked like, I don't know if you guys

01:02:47   ever saw this, I don't think it ever caught on because it's pretty terrible.

01:02:50   If you can imagine your space bar replaced by a pencil, like a horizontal pencil, and

01:02:56   you put your thumb on the pencil, and as you roll the pencil, just rolling it, that makes

01:03:01   your cursor go up and down, and as you slide your finger left and right on the pencil,

01:03:05   that makes the cursor go left and right.

01:03:06   You hear what it was called.

01:03:09   It was not a good pointing device.

01:03:11   But it was an interesting way, like, before trackpads they wanted to have a pointing device

01:03:15   that didn't take up a lot of room, so they didn't have the nubbin at this point, I think

01:03:19   this predates the nubbin, and they didn't have a trackpad and there wasn't room for

01:03:21   that anyway, so they had below the spacebar this, whatever this was like, what is it called?

01:03:28   Isopoint trackbar, there you go, I googling, I don't know why it was called isopoint.

01:03:32   Anyway, it didn't catch on for a reason.

01:03:34   But there's a long history of people trying to essentially have a Mac, but not have a

01:03:40   a Mac and I think everything has been tried,

01:03:43   including actual legitimate cloning,

01:03:44   which hopefully you guys either don't remember

01:03:46   or have blocked out of your mind.

01:03:48   - Yeah, and that was before our time as Mac users.

01:03:49   But I mean, all these things, these make sense.

01:03:52   That crazy company was around when there wasn't a Mac laptop

01:03:55   The people who made Modbook and everything,

01:03:57   that was before the iPad and there was no Mac Cintiq,

01:04:01   basically, is what they were trying to make.

01:04:03   And I don't know if they still make them anyway.

01:04:05   And Hackintoshes are around because there's no,

01:04:07   what everyone calls the XMac,

01:04:09   which is like there's basically no like

01:04:11   cheap desktop tower Mac that just expandable

01:04:13   with regular slots.

01:04:14   Like the Mac Pro used to kind of almost be that

01:04:17   except it wasn't cheap,

01:04:18   and now we don't even have that anymore.

01:04:20   So you know, and so Hackintoshes and all these things,

01:04:24   they serve needs that Apple refuses to serve

01:04:27   for whatever reason, whether they're not profitable

01:04:29   or whether they're just too specialized

01:04:30   and not enough people would buy them,

01:04:32   or whether they don't fit into

01:04:34   Johnny Ives' Magic White Room

01:04:35   'cause they have too many ports

01:04:36   and they're too expandable and you know,

01:04:38   they're too useful, I don't know.

01:04:40   But Apple refused to serve these markets.

01:04:44   You know, they're gonna get served somehow,

01:04:45   and either they're gonna get served by crappy PCs

01:04:48   with other stuff, or they're gonna get served

01:04:50   with illegal pirated copies of OS X.

01:04:52   I'm not really sure which is worse for Apple,

01:04:55   but I'm guessing keeping people in the Apple ecosystem

01:04:57   even illegally is probably better for Apple long term.

01:05:01   - That's an interesting point.

01:05:02   I don't know, this is all gonna get resolved this fall

01:05:04   when they release all the new hardware

01:05:06   and everyone will be happy except you two.

01:05:09   - And Mac Mini owners will also be sad.

01:05:11   - Yeah, I mean, we at least talk from this position

01:05:14   of privilege that Apple at least occasionally mentions

01:05:16   our computers, but Mac Mini people, ooh,

01:05:19   they're in a bad spot.

01:05:21   Mac Mini people, we're complaining like,

01:05:23   oh, our computers haven't gotten updated

01:05:24   in two or three years.

01:05:26   Mac Mini people, that's always their condition.

01:05:29   Since the beginning of the Mac Mini,

01:05:31   the way they treat the Mac Mini is just insulting.

01:05:35   It really is insulting.

01:05:36   And the last time they updated it,

01:05:38   they took away all the best options

01:05:39   and all the expandability.

01:05:41   And it's like, oh, we have it easy

01:05:45   compared to the Mac Mini people.

01:05:46   - I saw someone at work the other day considering,

01:05:49   ideally, like, oh, I'm thinking to get a new Mac

01:05:51   and I can't really decide between a 5Ki Mac and a Mac Mini.

01:05:55   And it dawned on me that, once again, it dawned on me,

01:05:58   you have to be shown that regular people don't keep track

01:06:01   of what the hell's inside all the different Macs.

01:06:02   As far as they're concerned,

01:06:03   it's like going to a car dealership.

01:06:04   well, you know, we make an SUV, we make a coupe,

01:06:06   we make a sedan, and you don't go to think like,

01:06:09   wait, does the sedan have like a steam powered engine in it?

01:06:13   And the coupe has an internal combustion engine,

01:06:16   and I'm not aware of that.

01:06:17   Like as far as you can say, well,

01:06:19   it was really just like, you know,

01:06:20   you don't want to buy an all in one computer

01:06:21   and have the big expensive screen trapped inside of there,

01:06:23   which is all legitimate reasons for like,

01:06:24   but what you don't understand is that the 5K iMac

01:06:26   has a Skylake CPU and the Mac mini has like a core two duo,

01:06:30   wherever the hell is in that thing now.

01:06:32   Like, you know, look on the outside,

01:06:35   it looks like you're just trading off form factor

01:06:37   and price and everything,

01:06:38   but really you should not buy that Mac Mini like ever.

01:06:41   Just when it was new, you shouldn't have bought it.

01:06:43   And now you definitely shouldn't buy it.

01:06:46   And I don't think Apple salespeople

01:06:48   are gonna emphasize that in the store,

01:06:50   although they may be confused about,

01:06:50   "Wait, you want a Mac what?

01:06:52   You sure you don't want a MacBook?

01:06:54   What are you saying?

01:06:54   Mini? You have to call someone from the back.

01:06:56   Do we have something called a Mac Mini?"

01:06:58   (laughing)

01:07:00   I mean, at least the Mac Pro is probably next to the big TV,

01:07:03   and they might have seen it.

01:07:03   Oh, you mean that's a computer?

01:07:05   All right.

01:07:06   But anyway, yeah, that's the worst part of this

01:07:09   is that regular people shouldn't have to care about this.

01:07:13   They should have a reasonable expectation

01:07:14   that they can go into an Apple store

01:07:16   and sort of pick a computer based on how big they want it

01:07:18   to be and how much they want it to cost

01:07:20   and have some basic understanding of, like, well,

01:07:22   the more expensive ones are better and faster and fancier

01:07:25   than less expensive ones.

01:07:26   But not to have this massive gulf where it's like,

01:07:28   I think I'm deciding between do I

01:07:30   want to have an integrated screen and an external screen,

01:07:32   it's like no, there are tremendous trade-offs

01:07:34   between the 5K iMac and the Mac Mini

01:07:36   that you really need to grasp before you make this decision.

01:07:38   It's not as if they are just equivalent,

01:07:41   but just that the boxes are separate or together.

01:07:43   And that's Apple's fault.

01:07:45   - Yeah, I mean, you can kind of see

01:07:47   throughout the course of Apple's history,

01:07:49   especially recent history, there are certain products

01:07:51   that they keep around out of spite.

01:07:54   Or I don't know, it's like certain products that they,

01:07:57   maybe spite's the wrong word,

01:07:58   but certain products where they begrudgingly

01:08:02   keep them around and you can tell

01:08:03   they really don't like them.

01:08:05   And it's almost like this, it's this tense relationship

01:08:08   they seem to have with these products of just disdain.

01:08:11   And they just kinda crap out updates every so often

01:08:14   because they have to.

01:08:15   And it's the same way that Steve Jobs famously

01:08:20   demoing the Motorola Rocker phone,

01:08:22   and you could tell he just hated this device

01:08:24   and he was trying to put on a good face on stage,

01:08:26   but he just hated it.

01:08:27   To me, that is how Apple treats the Mac Mini,

01:08:30   and possibly maybe even the Mac Pro these days.

01:08:33   I don't know, time will tell on that one.

01:08:36   But the Mac Mini, certainly that is how they treated it

01:08:38   for a long time, where they keep it updated

01:08:41   because for whatever strategic reason or whatever,

01:08:45   they kind of have to keep offering this computer

01:08:48   to solve a bunch of needs, I guess.

01:08:51   But they hate it so much,

01:08:53   and they never let you forget they hate it.

01:08:54   And every update, they're like,

01:08:56   we're gonna give a little here,

01:08:57   but then we're gonna take away this other thing

01:08:59   and we're just gonna make you hate this

01:09:00   until you fools all stop buying it

01:09:02   and you switch to one of our better computers.

01:09:04   Like that is honestly the feeling I get about the Mac Mini

01:09:07   and I own one and even when I bought it,

01:09:08   I was mad about it and I still bought it

01:09:10   'cause I needed one but it's like,

01:09:12   I was pricing it, I'm like,

01:09:14   God, this thing is such a rip off and so restricted

01:09:16   and so it's like, it's just, ugh,

01:09:19   I felt all that anger that Apple clearly has

01:09:22   for this product that they hate and they occasionally sell.

01:09:26   I wonder what the pressures are on the Mac Mini design.

01:09:28   Is it like that every year the margins have to get better?

01:09:31   'Cause that fits the data we have,

01:09:33   kind of like that it does get more expensive and crappier.

01:09:37   Like relatively speaking, obviously it gets better

01:09:39   with the exception of this recent quad

01:09:41   to dual core transition.

01:09:42   For the most part it does get better,

01:09:43   but it seems to me that the margins get better

01:09:45   with every new version.

01:09:47   And it's like they've kind of given up on,

01:09:49   hey, we need to find a way to boost the sales

01:09:51   of the Mac Mini because the sales are probably

01:09:53   extremely low and not really going anywhere.

01:09:54   of this, but every year we can boost the margins by putting slightly cheaper stuff in it and

01:09:59   removing the optical drive and doing all the stuff that we can do to, you know, like every

01:10:05   group, you have to measure it on something. I know Apple famously has just a profit and

01:10:10   loss line for the entire company and is not measuring every individual department saying,

01:10:13   "Well, Mac Mini Team, what is your profit and loss for the year?" or whatever, but the

01:10:18   products are changed with some kind of purpose and increasing or at the very least maintaining

01:10:23   margins seems to be a big Apple incentive.

01:10:26   And when I look at what they're doing with the Mac Mini, what explanation for the evolution

01:10:31   of that hardware and that product is there, other than pressure to increase or maintain

01:10:37   margins with each new revision?

01:10:39   And not a lot of pressure to do anything with it until it's in desperate need of replacement,

01:10:43   because it has never been a great bargain.

01:10:46   But I feel like the value proposition has just gotten worse and worse.

01:10:49   You were getting less for more money.

01:10:52   And like you said, Marco, if you need a tiny little headless Mac, this is your only option.

01:10:57   And maybe that's just good business.

01:10:58   Maybe Apple knows, "Hey, if people need a tiny little headless Mac, this is their only

01:11:02   option."

01:11:03   So just add a little tiny bit extra every year.

01:11:07   Can we take out 10 or 20 bucks worth of hardware and add 50 bucks to the price and do that

01:11:12   every three years for the next nine years?

01:11:15   And pretty soon you have an $800 computer that's as fast as a pocket calculator.

01:11:18   (laughing)

01:11:21   Oh, goodness.

01:11:22   What did you buy your Mac Mini for?

01:11:24   - It's my iSCSI host, and it runs back-blazed

01:11:27   to back up my Synology,

01:11:28   and it's currently doing this live stream.

01:11:30   - That's true.

01:11:31   - And it does a few,

01:11:32   it's also kind of where I put like,

01:11:33   utility software that I don't want

01:11:35   junking up my main Mac,

01:11:36   so the iSCSI driver was one of those things.

01:11:38   I also use it as the Fujitsu ScanSnap software machine,

01:11:42   like it runs the ScanSnap software.

01:11:44   The scans have scans to it,

01:11:46   and then it just syncs things over via network sharing

01:11:49   to my real computer.

01:11:50   So it kinda does like this utility,

01:11:52   the set of utility functions.

01:11:53   It's kind of a home server in certain ways,

01:11:56   but not always, I don't know.

01:11:59   I'm always looking for possible plans

01:12:03   of how I can rearrange my home setup

01:12:05   such that I don't need it anymore,

01:12:06   but it is still in use.

01:12:10   - The correct answer to my question

01:12:11   was a continuous integration server, but who am I kidding?

01:12:15   I know what that is vaguely.

01:12:17   - This is the WDC sessions about the testing bots.

01:12:21   - Yes, it's one of those things where like,

01:12:23   when I see the session about a WDC,

01:12:25   it sounds, it looks and sounds really cool,

01:12:28   but it also looks and sounds like it requires

01:12:29   a lot of setup of testing and infrastructure

01:12:31   that I don't probably want to set up.

01:12:34   So someday, that will sound really awesome to me.

01:12:37   Someday when I have a staff of responsible programmers

01:12:40   working for me, they can set that up

01:12:42   and I will just enjoy the benefits of it.

01:12:44   We're going to start small.

01:12:46   We're starting with the unit tests.

01:12:47   We're not going to go all the way to continuous integration

01:12:49   server.

01:12:49   And for a single person in shop, you probably

01:12:51   don't need that, although Underscore probably

01:12:53   has five of them.

01:12:55   Continuously building his software

01:12:56   and running tests against them, and he

01:12:58   has a little dashboard that sends him a message on his watch

01:13:00   that tells him the state of all his applications

01:13:02   as of the latest beta of the software.

01:13:04   And now he's really good at using time,

01:13:06   so he probably didn't set that up.

01:13:07   No, he did, because now his applications write themselves.

01:13:09   How do you think he writes all his applications?

01:13:11   New betas of the OS come out.

01:13:13   his little minions automatically downloaded,

01:13:15   rebuild his software for it, click all the fix it things

01:13:18   in Xcode to fix all the problems that it finds.

01:13:20   And then he has a little dashboard display on his watch

01:13:22   while he's out for his evening constitutional

01:13:24   that tells him how many of his apps

01:13:26   have successfully upgraded for iOS 10 beta two.

01:13:28   And you know, one of them has one warning left

01:13:30   and he's gonna go in and sit down at his computer,

01:13:32   click one button, he'll fix that one.

01:13:34   - Jumped on.

01:13:36   - So this is how I picture his life.

01:13:37   Don't tell me it's any different.

01:13:39   - No, it's accurate.

01:13:40   I've seen his setup, it's accurate.

01:13:41   - All right, thanks a lot to our sponsors,

01:13:43   this week. Eero, Wonder Capital, and Trunk Club, and we will see you next week.

01:13:50   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:13:55   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:14:00   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:14:05   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:14:11   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:14:16   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:14:21   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:14:25   So that's Kasey Liszt M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:14:30   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:14:35   USA, Syracuse, it's accidental

01:14:40   They didn't mean to, accidental

01:14:45   ♪ I've got no tech, my car's so long ♪

01:14:49   - All right, so tell me about your potential new Accord,

01:14:55   John, or the family's potential new Accord anyway.

01:14:57   - I mean, it makes sense.

01:14:58   Like, Mike has two iPads, right?

01:15:00   - No, I think he has 13.

01:15:01   - That's right, so you can have two Accords.

01:15:03   - Yeah, no, I don't have any problem with that.

01:15:05   My wife's car is about 10 years old,

01:15:07   and it's usually when we start thinking about replacing them

01:15:09   and it's pretty beat up, and she was thinking about

01:15:11   what kind of car should she get,

01:15:13   And she faces the same problems that you kind of-- you

01:15:15   were talking about Casey.

01:15:16   She doesn't want an automatic transmission.

01:15:18   Her options are really limited.

01:15:21   We also don't want to spend a tremendous amount of money

01:15:24   for the car for a variety of reasons.

01:15:27   I mean, we know what's-- just look at her old car

01:15:29   and just think of you're going to buy a $60,000 car

01:15:31   and it's going to look like that.

01:15:33   For 10 years, you're going to be sad.

01:15:34   So we need-- and it needs to be reliable, big,

01:15:36   be able to fit four people in it and all of our stuff,

01:15:38   all that.

01:15:39   And we basically end up back in the same place

01:15:41   always end up with just like the Mazda 6 or the Honda Accord. Those are the reasonably

01:15:45   priced reliable four-door sporty sedans you can get with the stick shift. And she resisted

01:15:51   that for a while, started coming around a little bit when she was looking at the new

01:15:56   Accord, started doing like the little builder thingy to build your own car, and I think

01:16:00   what's pushing her over the edge is the fact that they have, once again, the same thing

01:16:05   that they had when she got her current car.

01:16:08   Her current car, she had a,

01:16:10   I always get the model years wrong

01:16:11   'cause I mess up with the calendar years,

01:16:13   but a 2003 or four-ish accord, they got totaled.

01:16:18   And with, we got a pretty good amount of money

01:16:22   back from that, basically with the money

01:16:24   from that car being totaled plus a little bit extra,

01:16:26   we bought a 2006-ish accord, and at that point,

01:16:29   it was the end of the generation,

01:16:31   like the end of that, before they replaced it

01:16:33   with a super ugly one that I never bought

01:16:34   never considered buying because it was terrible. That was bad. Yeah that was like the worst

01:16:38   Accord in a long time. Anyway it was the end of the generation and I guess they do this

01:16:42   regularly I don't know this is I've only been buying Accords for you know 10 years or so

01:16:46   so I don't know. They make a special edition right at the end of the product line so that

01:16:51   for 2017 the Honda Accord Sport comes in a special edition which is just the Honda Accord

01:16:57   Sport which by the way the Sport is you know we get the Sport because it has a stick shift

01:17:00   you can get the stick shift in the LX but the Sport has like nicer wheels and stuff

01:17:04   But any of the cars with the stick shift, you can't get a lot of the nice options.

01:17:07   So a lot of the fancy stuff that's in the V6 or in the high-end ones,

01:17:11   you just can't get with a stick shift, which is a shame.

01:17:13   So we're kind of like limiting ourselves.

01:17:14   But the Sport Special Edition is still limited like the Sport,

01:17:18   but has a few extra niceties.

01:17:19   So it comes with leather seats and seat heaters,

01:17:22   which she's wanted for a long time and we haven't been able to get.

01:17:25   Because for the most part, four-door stick shift sedans do not come with

01:17:28   leather seats or seat heaters unless they're BMWs, like, you know, cheap cars.

01:17:31   So finally here is a car down in our price range with these fancy options in it

01:17:36   and it comes with the nice fancy wheels and all the little body treatments and all the other stuff that you want your

01:17:42   Accord Sport to come with and

01:17:44   Contrasting red stitching and a little ball shifter thing and all sorts of nice things there still doesn't come with navigation

01:17:50   I think you still can't get that

01:17:52   and the second thing that I think is attracting her to it is

01:17:57   For the most part the accord sport comes in super boring colors. I can get black white and gray

01:18:01   I think those are the only options when I bought my car. That's it. You know Honda is not

01:18:06   Particularly magnanimous with the color choices. That's not sure I'm looking at red right here the sport special edition right right well

01:18:13   So now red is an option both

01:18:15   2016 red is an option and in the 2017 special edition so she wants to get a red Honda Accord sport

01:18:23   special edition

01:18:25   2017 model these wheels are aggressive. I

01:18:27   Like them, but they're aggressive. I know you have them anyway, so this is probably the car

01:18:33   She's going to get and I think what is making her go over is the seat heaters and the leather

01:18:37   Which I don't think she's gonna be that big of a fan of leather. I like cloth seats personally, but seat heaters

01:18:41   I think she will enjoy a lot

01:18:43   and

01:18:45   The fact that she's gonna get in red so she's got she's mitten by the Marco red bug

01:18:49   She's at that stage in life where she wants to have a red car

01:18:51   I would never buy this car. I would buy this in black immediately and but she can't tolerate having two black Accords even though I could

01:18:56   Even though they would look as different as two of my children to me

01:18:59   14 they're totally different the wheels alone. How can you not tell like what I'd ever mistakenly get in the wrong car

01:19:10   It would never happen, but to her she cannot have two black Accords, which is fine

01:19:14   It's her car. She can pick whatever color she wants and really her only options are white black gray and red

01:19:20   In other words, black and red.

01:19:21   So it looks like this is what we're going to be getting.

01:19:23   Yeah.

01:19:24   I don't mind that.

01:19:25   I like the silver.

01:19:26   The gray is really dark, but the silver, I think of course it does look good in silver,

01:19:29   but silver is not an option for this.

01:19:31   So will this be better than your car?

01:19:34   Yeah, I mean like obviously seat ether is going to make it better and leather technically

01:19:39   is better, but like I said, I think I like cloth better.

01:19:41   I mean it looks to me like it's better than your car in almost every way.

01:19:44   And how do you feel about that?

01:19:47   It's the same engine and transmission.

01:19:50   And like I said, I don't think the leather seats are actually an improvement, especially,

01:19:54   you know, I know the heaters are going to make them warm up in the wintertime, but it

01:19:57   is cold initially unless you let the seats warm up before you get into the car.

01:20:02   And I don't really like sitting on leather, I'd rather sit on cloth.

01:20:07   But everything else about it, it's not fast, it doesn't have a more powerful engine.

01:20:11   I'm kind of jealous of her wheels, because like Casey said, they are more aggressive

01:20:14   and I feel like I should have the more aggressive wheels.

01:20:16   But nah, it'll be fine.

01:20:19   I'm happy for her to have this car if she likes it then that's all I care about

01:20:23   I will continue to try to defend my car even as my children scrape their bicycles against the side of it

01:20:28   Why not uh, why not a zoom zoom?

01:20:31   She doesn't seem that interested in that and honestly I am still a little bit wary of Mazda reliability

01:20:38   There's such a small company compared to all

01:20:40   Aaron's car so far has been in this I know I know they're good like we we had a Mazda when I was a kid

01:20:47   they're fairly reliable, but I'm a little bit wary of that. I would still go with it

01:20:52   if that's what she wanted. I think the Secord looks better than the 6. And honestly, we've

01:20:57   just always been a Honda family. It seems silly to break the streak at this point. And

01:21:01   the other practical concern is…

01:21:02   That's a good reason to pick a car brand. It seems silly to pick a different one.

01:21:07   Yeah. I mean, we've been satisfied with Honda. It's like going to the restaurant

01:21:11   that you know you like rather than trying a different one. And the more practical reason

01:21:15   is we like to get across to the dealer, which whatever, it may be silly, but again, it's

01:21:20   exchanging money for a peace of mind or someone to blame or whatever. And it's a lot easier

01:21:25   to get to Honda dealerships from our house than it is to Mazda dealerships.

01:21:28   That's fair.

01:21:29   Whatever works.

01:21:30   I was going to ask you something. Shoot. Oh, somebody pointed out in the chat the same

01:21:37   thing I was thinking. You know, I have no issue, quite obviously, with her getting a

01:21:40   six-speed but if she had gotten an automatic I think that would let her get a remote start

01:21:47   and in the barbaric conditions in which you live that would probably be really nice unless

01:21:52   you would forego the garage and give her the garage spot.

01:21:54   I saw the remote start as an option in the little car builder thing. I didn't realize

01:21:58   it probably had to be associated with the automatic but it's not actually an automatic

01:22:01   it's a CVT is the other option. The car is so messed up. Those are your options in Honda

01:22:06   these days. You understand why I'm being chased down into this one little corner of Honda's

01:22:11   car lineup and eventually, like Casey, I will be in a situation where this goes away. But

01:22:15   in the meantime, I'm going to keep buying these. I really like my car. It's probably

01:22:20   the best car I've owned. Possible exception of the 1992 Civic, which I really like but

01:22:26   was a death trap.

01:22:27   Yeah, you keep sticking with Honda. Let me know how that works out.

01:22:31   Minor issues.

01:22:32   Yeah, they are good cars. And this does look good.

01:22:35   Every car was a death drop in 1992, come on.

01:22:37   It was a tiny little economy car.

01:22:39   We didn't have the technology to do this.

01:22:42   The Accord, this generation of Accord is a great generation.

01:22:44   I don't know what the next generation will be like of Accords if you're thinking of getting

01:22:47   an Accord and this is the last model year and they're gonna switch it over in 2018.

01:22:50   Get this car, get a 2016, get a 2017.

01:22:52   The whole model line is just great.

01:22:55   God, I'm building my own 2017 Accord sedan, Sport Special Edition 6-speed manual.

01:23:00   That's the entire model name.

01:23:02   Anyway, you're right, the exterior colors, black steel,

01:23:06   which is gray, San Marino red, or white orchid,

01:23:10   pearl white are your options.

01:23:12   Your interior color, your choices are as follows.

01:23:15   Black leather.

01:23:16   You have three choices of wheels,

01:23:18   a bunch of really crappy exterior accessories,

01:23:21   a handful of equally crappy interior accessories,

01:23:25   and then electronic, wait a second.

01:23:28   The remote engine start is available.

01:23:29   - As I said, electronic started on there,

01:23:30   but I think you're right.

01:23:31   How can that be associated with the manual?

01:23:33   How does that even work?

01:23:34   Can't be.

01:23:35   - Well, if you leave it neutral,

01:23:37   which is not a good idea.

01:23:38   - No, who does that?

01:23:40   That's not how you park a car.

01:23:40   - A lot of people do that.

01:23:42   I agree with you, it's barbaric.

01:23:44   - But if you don't do that,

01:23:44   and you hit the remote start,

01:23:45   does your car lurch forward

01:23:46   and slam into your garage wall?

01:23:48   - Yes, seriously.

01:23:49   How can that be?

01:23:50   That doesn't make any sense.

01:23:53   - It's probably just their website not realizing,

01:23:54   oh, you can't have that unless you have the CVT.

01:23:57   - Yep, that's probably true.

01:23:58   - And those stupid plastic accessories that you see,

01:24:00   the exterior accessories,

01:24:01   people buy those. I see them on the road all the time.

01:24:03   Like, A, look at the prices,

01:24:05   and B, look at what they look like.

01:24:06   Some of them, I think, actually do look kind of cool.

01:24:08   - Oh, the body side molding looks good.

01:24:10   - But usually people don't buy just one.

01:24:11   They buy like all of them.

01:24:12   And just look at the prices.

01:24:14   Look at how much money they're paying.

01:24:15   I don't understand it.

01:24:16   - Anyway, I bring all this up to say

01:24:18   that it is frustrating, not only how cheap this car is,

01:24:23   as compared to the sorts of cars that I am often pricing,

01:24:25   which again, I didn't buy my BMW new for that very reason,

01:24:29   But there are so few actual options.

01:24:31   Like these are just, how do you say it, accoutrement?

01:24:33   Or whatever, these are just--

01:24:34   - Yeah, they're all dealer installed crap.

01:24:36   That's what these things are. - Right, exactly.

01:24:38   But with BMW, they nickel and dime you over everything.

01:24:43   It is absurd how bad they nickel and dime you

01:24:47   over the dumbest crap.

01:24:49   In fact, I don't think you even get leather for free.

01:24:51   - Honda just added the floor mats

01:24:54   like a couple years ago, I believe.

01:24:56   So for the first half of my Honda buying,

01:24:59   you had to pay 150 bucks with the floor mats.

01:25:01   They finally added that in.

01:25:02   So that's a nice break from the norm.

01:25:04   But it's frustrating how few options are.

01:25:06   Because again, we would pay for navigation.

01:25:07   We would pay whatever obscene price for navigation.

01:25:09   It goes, that's the one I want.

01:25:11   Even though we all know it's better on the phone

01:25:13   and all this other stuff,

01:25:14   she just wants to have a car with navigation

01:25:15   to see what it's like.

01:25:17   - Oh no, having it built in is awesome.

01:25:19   I will tolerate, like, even Tesla's system is okay,

01:25:24   but it's not great.

01:25:26   but I still use it instead of using my phone

01:25:28   because it's built in and having it built in is awesome.

01:25:31   - Yep, I completely agree.

01:25:33   And my maps are, well, I actually happen to have

01:25:36   a BMW bill, a repair bill, because that's what BMWs do

01:25:39   is they generate repair bills.

01:25:40   I have one in front of me which includes a delivery date

01:25:43   which was December of 2010.

01:25:44   So I have maps from 2010 and every single time

01:25:48   I get in the car where I don't know where I'm going,

01:25:50   I will spend the time to plug it into the navigation

01:25:53   because it is so much more convenient and safe

01:25:56   to look at the screen that's designed for that sort of thing

01:25:59   than it is to be fumbling with my phone.

01:26:01   And I could not agree more.

01:26:03   Even an ancient car like mine is becoming,

01:26:06   I would still rather have the onboard nav.

01:26:07   So Tina is right to ask for it.

01:26:09   I completely agree with you.

01:26:10   - Yeah, but again, not an option.

01:26:12   Because this is basically the bottom of the line Honda,

01:26:15   even though this is the special edition.

01:26:16   And I'm wondering what are the special edition things there?

01:26:19   Her special edition had the faux carbon fiber trim.

01:26:22   that was the special edition, her wheels,

01:26:25   the things that distinguish her current accord

01:26:27   as special edition are, from the outside, is the wheels,

01:26:29   and if you look inside, the fake carbon fiber

01:26:32   that replaces the trim bits.

01:26:34   And that's basically it.

01:26:36   And the people who, we got such a good deal on her car,

01:26:39   the people who ordered this car before us

01:26:41   and then backed out did add a couple of external

01:26:44   bolt-on dealer accessories that I just had to stomach,

01:26:48   'cause you can't really remove them,

01:26:50   'cause now there's holes in the body work

01:26:51   where they mount them or whatever. So I had to just accept those. I don't

01:26:55   particularly like them. I would never bought them myself but this car was so

01:26:58   cheap. We got us such a good deal on this car. I assume we're not going to get that

01:27:01   great of a deal on this 2017. The other 2017 thing I'm looking forward to is

01:27:05   supposedly they made their infotainment system software better and there's a lot

01:27:11   of room for it to get better because it is so slow and so clunky and so

01:27:15   Byzantine. It took me like six months to learn how to do the most basic things on

01:27:19   and it still drives me nuts. So I am happy for them to advertise it as being more responsive.

01:27:28   Like, please, anything, any improvement in that area that you can give me, I will accept.

01:27:32   I'm sure they probably also made some other things worse. So anyway, I'm vaguely hopeful

01:27:38   about this car, but yeah, I'm slowly being chased out of the car market by stick shifts

01:27:45   disappearing and I'm being chased out of Honda's by Honda replacing all their transmissions with

01:27:49   CVTs hopefully by the time I'm really chased out of it all the CVTs will have morphed into you know automated manual

01:27:57   You know dual clutch transmissions and that maybe I'll be able to tolerate more than the horror that is the CVT

01:28:02   Now DCT is livable like if if my future is not

01:28:07   If my future is not an electric car then and it's not a six-speed

01:28:14   I will go out of my way to find a true DCT because they it is not the way I

01:28:21   would prefer it but it is certainly livable. Does this model year

01:28:26   support CarPlay? Because you get the big screen even if you don't get like a GPS

01:28:30   chip so to speak, right? But it's not a touchscreen it's just a display screen.

01:28:35   So CarPlay can use wheels and stuff too. Right, right. But

01:28:39   there's no, well, there's kind of a wheel. It's not, it's not like the BMW system

01:28:47   where you have a cursor control. It's not like that. It's more like a series of buttons.

01:28:51   And sometimes, sometimes the wheel scrolls, but that's it.

01:28:54   I mean, even like a D-pad kind of thing, like I'm pretty sure CarPlay works with all sorts

01:28:57   of combinations of these control schemes. You know, intentionally.

01:29:00   Honda does support CarPlay, so maybe it works, but really it's not even a D-pad. It's

01:29:04   not even a five-way thing. It is literally a cluster of buttons, one called menu, one

01:29:08   called back and then there's a button and then there's a wheel and the only thing the

01:29:12   wheel does is move the selection up and down but you're mostly hitting menu back and settings

01:29:16   to try to navigate and display it because some navigation options are not available

01:29:19   unless a particular thing is displayed. So it is a terrible interface.

01:29:23   Yeah, when Marco and I and a couple of friends of ours went to Cupertino and Facebook when

01:29:29   we were out in California, we rented a Mercedes GL45 which is a truly lovely SUV. Like it's

01:29:36   It's certainly not my kind of car,

01:29:37   not the sort of thing I would want to drive,

01:29:39   but darned if it wasn't really nice.

01:29:42   That being said, I, I mean, iDrive has its problems.

01:29:47   It's very opinionated, and it's a little bit weird,

01:29:51   although I've come to absolutely love it,

01:29:53   and iDrive is a BMW system.

01:29:55   - iDrive is great.

01:29:56   - Yeah, whatever they call the Mercedes system,

01:29:59   it is unbelievably bad.

01:30:03   This was, I would assume, this was like a $90,000 truck

01:30:05   or something like that, or whatever it was,

01:30:06   it was expensive, maybe not 90,000, but it was expensive.

01:30:09   And it was beautiful in so many ways,

01:30:13   but this infotainment system was awful,

01:30:16   just unbelievably bad.

01:30:18   - I'm guessing they probably just didn't give it a name

01:30:21   out of mercy.

01:30:23   - It's called Command, all caps, yeah.

01:30:25   - What? - They all have names.

01:30:26   - Oh, God.

01:30:28   I just, I can't handle, it was so unbelievably bad,

01:30:33   just indescribably bad.

01:30:34   - Yeah, there was a time, about a year ago,

01:30:38   I rented, I was at a car rental place for on a trip

01:30:41   and I had to rent a four-door sedan

01:30:43   and there was a Mercedes E something or other

01:30:46   that was available for a little bit more.

01:30:48   I'm like, okay, sure, I'll do that.

01:30:49   And it was a great pleasure to drive that car

01:30:52   in many, many ways, but it had the same system

01:30:54   and my God, it's like using DOS.

01:30:58   Like, it's like, what year is this

01:31:00   and how expensive is this car?

01:31:02   and you have this system in here?

01:31:05   It's impressively bad.

01:31:08   - Yep, so if you go to automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan,

01:31:13   and if you scroll down, how did I get here?

01:31:17   Of course you can't link to anything on the stupid page.

01:31:20   If you scroll down, there's eventually a section

01:31:24   where it says cockpit, convenience, or accessories.

01:31:27   If you click accessories,

01:31:28   then there's a button for Apple CarPlay,

01:31:30   It says it is standard on EX, EXL, EXL, V6, and Touring models, which I assume is not

01:31:36   the Sport model, which means no guts.

01:31:38   Yeah, it means no stick.

01:31:40   You can get the stick in the LX, and we looked at that.

01:31:43   You can buy a non-Sport one, and you get a few different options, but you get worse looking

01:31:48   at wheels than for me.

01:31:49   That's the deal breaker.

01:31:50   EX, EXL, and EXL V6 and Touring.

01:31:54   Those are your only options.

01:31:55   The LX is the bottom of the bottom of the line.

01:31:57   They got rid of DX.

01:31:58   It's kind of a clever thing that Honda did in its naming.

01:32:02   It used to have a letter system for the trim levels,

01:32:06   and DX was always the bottom.

01:32:08   Our Civic was a DX.

01:32:09   That's why it only had one side mirror on it by the time.

01:32:13   I still can't believe that was legal.

01:32:14   - For a long time.

01:32:15   - Yeah, that's a very tiny car.

01:32:17   I think they basically retired the DX moniker

01:32:21   because it became such an anti-status symbol,

01:32:24   like, oh, you got the super cheap one.

01:32:26   And so now the bottom is just,

01:32:27   All they did was shift the letters.

01:32:28   Like the LX is basically the DX.

01:32:30   It's the same thing, like, you know,

01:32:32   no body colored side mirrors.

01:32:34   They don't do one mirror anymore, but it's really cheap.

01:32:37   But yeah, the Sport is a step up from the LX.

01:32:40   So even though you can get the LX,

01:32:42   it's frustrating 'cause you can get the LX with a stick

01:32:44   and you can get more options,

01:32:46   a few more options on the LX,

01:32:47   even though it is supposedly the lesser model,

01:32:49   because the Sport is like,

01:32:50   "Oh, you don't want those things.

01:32:51   "You want everything just to be sporty."

01:32:52   It's like, "No, well, you know,

01:32:53   "I would have taken the seat heaters in my car

01:32:55   they were an option but they weren't an option.

01:32:57   [door closes]