176: Yellow Sock Time


00:00:00   Are either of you watching new Top Gear?

00:00:03   - No. - What?

00:00:04   Why would I do that?

00:00:04   (laughing)

00:00:05   I still am, but just very slowly.

00:00:07   I watched episode two, I think I'm on three.

00:00:10   - Two is no good.

00:00:12   Three is where it starts to take a turn, in a good way.

00:00:15   - Two is the one where they review

00:00:16   the big yellow Ferrari, right?

00:00:18   - Yes, I believe that's right.

00:00:20   - I like the Ferrari.

00:00:22   - Well, yeah, but the episode's still no good.

00:00:24   However, the three through five are much improved.

00:00:29   worth watching. So Marco, definitely don't even bother with 1 and 2. 3, 50/50, I would

00:00:35   say yes. So 60/40. 4 and 5, definitely, if you have time, worth watching.

00:00:41   I think I'll just start with season this plus 1 and just tell me when that's good.

00:00:47   Fair enough. We should probably start with some follow-up.

00:00:52   And is it Linus or Linus? I always get it wrong. Torvalds had some things to say to

00:00:58   to you, John, of all people, about HFS+.

00:01:01   - It wasn't to me, really.

00:01:02   This was the thing I was looking for last week.

00:01:04   I said that Linus Torvalds had said unkind things

00:01:07   about HFS+ because he had had a run-in with it

00:01:11   as he relates to the Git version control system.

00:01:14   And I Googled for it, and I found this exact URL,

00:01:17   but it's like ad banner blindness,

00:01:19   I had Google+ blindness.

00:01:20   This is a Google+ page.

00:01:21   I'm like, oh, that can't be it.

00:01:23   I thought he had a blog post or something,

00:01:24   and I just ignored this Google+ thing.

00:01:27   It turns out that his little I don't know if this is the origin, but this is another place where he complained about

00:01:32   It is in a comment on a Google+ page. So it's basically invisible as far as the civilized world is concerned

00:01:37   Anyway, I think I noticed it because I think he did what the equivalent of at mentioning me there and I probably got some

00:01:43   Notification in Google+ back when I was still paying attention to Google+

00:01:46   And we'll put a link in the show notes

00:01:49   Remember when you go to the link?

00:01:50   there's no way to directly link to his comment as far as I could tell you just have to scroll until you see his name and

00:01:56   The substance of it doesn't really matter that much as we talked about last week

00:02:00   It's more if you want to see the things that people both love and hate about

00:02:05   the Linux kernel

00:02:07   Linus Torvalds and and just those communities

00:02:10   How he just has everything in sort of a rude dismissive way like the hfs+ is actively designed to be bad

00:02:17   By people who thought they had good ideas and they should just they're paste eaters and they have no idea what they're doing

00:02:25   It's it's very rude like you can say all the same things about being rude, and that's a topic

00:02:29   That's come up a lot in open source communities like some people enjoy that like it's raw

00:02:34   It's keeping it real and other people like I don't want to hang out with a bunch of people who are jerks to each

00:02:38   Other right can we not talk about technical issues without calling people names?

00:02:42   My stowouts can't

00:02:45   That's too bad anyway

00:02:47   there so just following up from last week and closing the circle on

00:02:52   why HFS+ makes people angry and you can see it's basically about he really doesn't like

00:02:57   NFD, the decomposed normalized form from Unicode, even though HFS+ doesn't use the exact NFD form

00:03:05   It uses actually a variant

00:03:06   But he really hates that entirely like he thinks that just shouldn't exist and no one should ever use it

00:03:10   And he doesn't like the fact that it normalizes and he doesn't like the fact that it's case insensitive

00:03:14   So he's really got a lot of complaints about HFS+

00:03:17   Go figure

00:03:19   Is he like the king of not invented here syndrome? It's not not invented here. It's just like he's totally

00:03:25   He would I would imagine he would be in the camp or it's like why is the file system doing anything to my file name?

00:03:30   Why is it trying to do something stupid? It should not be messing with my file name

00:03:34   It should just do it should just be simple and unix-like and sort of worse is better

00:03:39   Oh if your system call fails just try it again, and you'll get an error code that tells you that you better check the error

00:03:43   Code just check it. It's so simple. I think that's you know it's a bag of bytes

00:03:47   Just put whatever bites you want in. You don't know what it means. That's your own stupid fault. Now I'm doing my weird pretend

00:03:52   I'm Linus Torvald's voice, but that would be my guess.

00:03:55   Yeah, philosophically he seems to be in the camp that

00:04:00   things should be

00:04:03   simpler and it's kind of a

00:04:05   violation of the contract for the file system to take your file name and do something weird with it. Fair enough.

00:04:10   Tell me about Integrity Checker. This is the program I was trying to think of, the already existing long-standing program

00:04:17   that will wander your Mac disks and write out a bunch of checksum files and then check

00:04:23   that your files haven't changed. It's from Digiloid tools from Mac Performance Guide.

00:04:30   We'll put a link in the show notes. I believe it sprinkles a bunch of .IC files all over your disk.

00:04:36   A lot of these things that do checksums do something like this. They'll either want to

00:04:40   modify your files by adding an extended attribute or they'll want to sprinkle a bunch of files all

00:04:44   over your disk with checksums in them.

00:04:46   And there's advantages and disadvantages to that.

00:04:48   The advantage is that you can't lose

00:04:51   all of your checksums at once.

00:04:53   The checksums go along with the directory.

00:04:55   If you move the directory, the checksum file

00:04:56   goes along with it.

00:04:57   If one of the files gets corrupted,

00:04:59   you don't lose all of your checksums.

00:05:01   It has advantages over a central database,

00:05:03   but the disadvantage, of course,

00:05:04   is that you get a bunch of these little,

00:05:05   turdy files sprinkled all over your hard drive,

00:05:07   so you'd be hesitant to point it

00:05:10   at just an arbitrary directory tree

00:05:11   because you'd be like,

00:05:12   Am I gonna make some program angry or confused

00:05:15   by putting a bunch of these files in the directories

00:05:17   that they don't expect to be there?

00:05:20   But anyway, you can check it out.

00:05:21   It apparently uses SHA-1 checksums.

00:05:24   And in my quest to remember this tool,

00:05:28   lots of other people sent in other tools saying,

00:05:30   "Is this the one you were thinking of?

00:05:31   Is this the one you were thinking of?"

00:05:33   Integrity Checker was the one I was thinking of,

00:05:34   but a few other ones came up.

00:05:36   There's trickbit, which is a node module

00:05:41   that does something similar, and apparently they

00:05:44   ran out of vowels, so it's C-H-K-B-I-T.

00:05:46   We'll put a link to that in the show notes

00:05:48   if you want to use JavaScript to do your checksumming.

00:05:50   I hear your snark there.

00:05:52   Yeah, well, it's not bad.

00:05:54   There's a bunch of tools around par2.

00:05:57   It's based on the P archive format,

00:06:00   and par2 is just the second version of it.

00:06:02   And this is sort of a next step up,

00:06:05   where instead of just writing out checksums,

00:06:07   it will write out parity files to correct errors

00:06:11   it fine? So it won't just write the checksums, you know, there's an error, it'll essentially do

00:06:14   sort of like the same thing that like a RAID 5 does, well, not the same algorithm, but more

00:06:20   fancy algorithms for adding parity information so that if you do detect some corruption, you can

00:06:25   correct it and you just tell it what percentage of your disk space you want to dedicate to parity

00:06:29   information. So you could dedicate, say, 5% of your disk space, like if you have a directory

00:06:34   that's 100 megs, you can say, okay, I'm allowing you to use five more megabytes just to store parity

00:06:39   so that you can recover from one or two or three bit errors or whatever that you find in corruption.

00:06:43   So that's, again, it's like a user space version of the kind of protection that RAID might provide you,

00:06:49   or something like ZFS where they duplicate the data and duplicate the checksums and all that stuff.

00:06:54   Now, so if you hypothetically have ever found a file that's fallen off the back of a truck,

00:07:00   you might have seen parts associated with that, depending on which truck you happen to have found that file on the back of,

00:07:06   or falling off the back of.

00:07:08   Well, only if you found it on the back of a really old truck.

00:07:12   Yeah, very, very old truck. We're talking like Model T or all.

00:07:17   Even though those old trucks are still running and no one really knows about them and that's amazing, but it's a really old truck.

00:07:23   That is true.

00:07:24   You're just talking about pirated files on Usenet? Why would they use the original PAR? Why would they use parity information? Are they trying to...

00:07:32   I know nothing of this, Jon, but if I did know something of this, I believe it's PAR 2.

00:07:37   - I mean, and I believe the rationale is,

00:07:38   suppose you split up your file on a whole bunch

00:07:41   of little ancient trucks, you're missing one truck,

00:07:44   one truck didn't make it, so you have like 400 other trucks

00:07:47   and you have like two par trucks.

00:07:49   (laughing)

00:07:50   And the par trucks can replace any of the missing

00:07:53   other 400 trucks, so then you can put back together

00:07:57   your really big truck that you're trying to assemble

00:07:59   so you can finally watch the new Top Gear.

00:08:01   - This is barbaric.

00:08:02   - Barbaric.

00:08:03   - Oh, this is the best, I love you guys.

00:08:06   All right, what did Tony Gray have to say?

00:08:09   Yeah, Tony Gray tweeted that he apparently

00:08:11   is in the process of trying to make a HFS checksum utility

00:08:16   as well.

00:08:16   So when he heard us talking about it, he's like, hmm.

00:08:20   So again, I said it's not a new idea.

00:08:22   There are existing applications that do it,

00:08:25   and there are even applications that have not yet

00:08:27   been released that do it.

00:08:29   And of course, all of which makes me even less inclined

00:08:32   to even start this project.

00:08:33   But I can tell you that all these different tools

00:08:35   that I've looked at, none of them

00:08:36   does it exactly the way I would want to do it,

00:08:38   but that doesn't mean I'll ever actually find the time

00:08:40   to make this program, but we'll see.

00:08:43   - How is it possible that like,

00:08:44   I'm gonna be a Mac programmer before you are?

00:08:46   (laughing)

00:08:47   - Well, I did programming with the Mac toolbox

00:08:50   back in the day and made silly little programs

00:08:53   that did nothing, so I think I'd beat you to it.

00:08:55   You were probably in what, elementary school?

00:08:57   Anyway. - Yeah, most likely.

00:08:58   - You had the hand of window dragging yourself.

00:09:01   You didn't get it free as part of the framework.

00:09:03   It's like, oh, you want your window to be draggable?

00:09:05   you better catch the drag event.

00:09:07   - Talk about barbaric.

00:09:08   - Otherwise you'd launch your application,

00:09:10   there'd be a window on the screen,

00:09:11   and you couldn't move it.

00:09:12   You'd grab it by the towel bar and it wouldn't budge.

00:09:14   Mac toolbox, yay!

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00:11:43   (upbeat music)

00:11:46   - All right kids, we did not cover

00:11:49   all of the Apple platform file system.

00:11:52   - No, stop saying platform.

00:11:53   It's just Apple File System.

00:11:54   Why is that still alive?

00:11:56   Because there's a P in there.

00:11:58   It's Apple.

00:11:59   M-A-C-O-S and Apple File System.

00:12:02   Nicholas Cage, come on.

00:12:05   You don't get that.

00:12:06   Don't pretend you get that.

00:12:07   Anyway, tell me about space sharing, Jon.

00:12:10   While we talk about these last remaining APFS topics,

00:12:12   you guys should think of something

00:12:13   to do with this show.

00:12:14   Otherwise, we're going to do how to handle

00:12:16   email or screen time for kids.

00:12:18   We can talk about Top Gear some more.

00:12:20   I think we did actually talk about these in a post-WWC thing,

00:12:23   but I've thought about them a little bit more.

00:12:25   Space sharing is the first one where,

00:12:29   I forget the terminology,

00:12:30   they make like a container for APFS

00:12:31   and you can put a bunch of different volumes in it,

00:12:33   but you don't have to partition it.

00:12:35   You just make one big giant container

00:12:37   and then you can make as many volumes as you want

00:12:39   and every single volume sees the entire size

00:12:42   of the container, which seems weird,

00:12:46   but it's great so that you don't have to do,

00:12:48   you know, in Unix, Parl, and Steel,

00:12:50   think of how big should I make the user partition?

00:12:52   How big is it I make the slash partition?

00:12:54   You don't have to think ahead of time about how much room

00:12:57   something is going to take up.

00:12:58   If you have a large volume and you

00:13:00   want to divide up between multiple uses,

00:13:03   you just let them go at it and they will

00:13:05   find their natural equilibrium.

00:13:07   Or one of them will grow too fast

00:13:08   and you'll be disappointed and you wish you could partition it.

00:13:10   But I think you'll still be able to make multiple containers,

00:13:12   like old style partitions.

00:13:13   I haven't tried it.

00:13:15   But anyway, that's interesting from a UI perspective

00:13:19   because it's got the same problem as Drobo had.

00:13:21   Like with Drobo would show you how much space,

00:13:24   it would show a much larger amount of space

00:13:25   than it was actually available.

00:13:27   Like for example, the time machine,

00:13:28   if you're doing time machine to a Drobo

00:13:30   and as time machine ran eventually, you know,

00:13:32   the Drobo would just run out of space,

00:13:33   but time machine can't predict that

00:13:34   because they can't really get an accurate read

00:13:35   on how much space there really is

00:13:37   because of the similar space sharing type thing.

00:13:39   That was a multi-disk situation.

00:13:40   But anyway, I don't know how you show

00:13:43   space sharing to the user.

00:13:45   Do you just show them?

00:13:46   And I'm assuming like, oh, I've got one terabyte drive

00:13:48   with three volumes on it, three one terabyte volumes.

00:13:51   And if you get info on each of those three volumes, they all say, "Yep, I have a one-terabyte

00:13:54   volume and I have this much free."

00:13:58   I don't know how you can show that in a sensible way, but I'm glad the feature exists because

00:14:01   I like the idea of not having to think about it ahead of time and make fixed-size partitions.

00:14:06   Although, I'm not sure that's a thing people do anymore.

00:14:09   Do either one of you have any of your disks partitioned?

00:14:11   Or do you have more than one disk?

00:14:13   I do have more than one disk.

00:14:14   I don't have them partitioned at all.

00:14:16   I think one way you can do this maybe is with network drives at least, they have the quota

00:14:22   system.

00:14:23   This is how Synology's Time Machine hosting module works.

00:14:28   And I should point out again, I think I've said this before, but I've done many different

00:14:32   ways of Time Machine backup from direct-detached disks to a Mac Mini server running OS X server

00:14:37   with Time Machine server on that to the Synology thing.

00:14:41   I've never used a time capsule, but otherwise everything else I've done.

00:14:45   And the Synology system is by far the most reliable

00:14:49   with Time Machine.

00:14:50   I've never had to format the whole partition

00:14:53   and start again, because Time Machine kept thinking

00:14:55   it was full.

00:14:56   That happened with literally every other method I've tried.

00:14:59   Never happened with the Synology one.

00:15:00   And what I have is what seems like a pretty complex setup,

00:15:03   which is a single, I believe, eight terabyte volume

00:15:07   that is split between me and TIFF.

00:15:10   And each of us connect to it with a different username,

00:15:12   and each username has a 50% space quota on that volume.

00:15:17   And we both fill it, or become very close to filling it

00:15:20   much of the time, and it's fine.

00:15:23   Like, it has never errored out.

00:15:25   Time machine always keep it to date.

00:15:26   So, you know, I know this is a complete diversion,

00:15:29   but huge recommendation for using the time machine thing

00:15:32   on Synology is because it's amazing.

00:15:34   - I'll do one better.

00:15:35   I have the same, I have not a single volume,

00:15:38   but I have a time machine volume,

00:15:39   and I think Synology lets you have one time machine volume.

00:15:41   I think that's actually like a RAID set at this point

00:15:43   because it's bigger than any one of my single disks.

00:15:47   And I have three or four different computers

00:15:50   backing up the time machine,

00:15:51   and I don't do anything with quotas.

00:15:52   I just let them run.

00:15:53   - Interesting.

00:15:54   They just kind of fight it out?

00:15:55   - I don't know what they're doing.

00:15:56   All I know is it never bothers me.

00:15:58   The backup is complete successfully.

00:16:00   You can recover files from it.

00:16:01   I think they just, you know,

00:16:03   when one of them sees that the thing is filling,

00:16:04   they trim their old backups, you know?

00:16:06   Like, as far as I'm concerned, it's magic.

00:16:09   Yes, I don't do anything with the quotas.

00:16:10   It's a free for all.

00:16:11   It's just like, whichever time machine backup

00:16:14   ends up getting close to the end of the disk,

00:16:16   it says, "Oh, it's time for me to trim some old backups,"

00:16:18   and it does that.

00:16:19   - It's cooperative time machining.

00:16:20   - Mm-hmm.

00:16:21   - Nice.

00:16:23   Yeah, I would double down on what you guys said as well.

00:16:25   I have two physical disks that are joined

00:16:28   in whatever the RAID is that is non-redundant

00:16:31   because it's-- - Zero.

00:16:32   - Yep, and so I have two disks joined RAID zero.

00:16:36   I do the quota thing that Marco's talking about.

00:16:38   I have yet to have an issue outside of a disk failure,

00:16:42   which is beyond Synology's control.

00:16:44   But no, it's worked really well for me.

00:16:46   Well, how did we get on this subject?

00:16:47   Oh, John asked if we partitioned stuff.

00:16:49   I have not partitioned any Mac I've owned ever

00:16:54   to the best of my recollection.

00:16:55   I've never done even Bootcamp,

00:16:58   which you would think I would have

00:17:00   given my prior profession, but I always just used VMs.

00:17:03   I used to aggressively partition

00:17:05   my actual physical Windows machines in the past.

00:17:09   I remember since ever, I would have my OS drive

00:17:12   and then my data drive and then an applications drive,

00:17:16   thinking that if I ever wanted to put on a different OS,

00:17:19   like a new version of Windows, whatever,

00:17:20   then all that other stuff could just remain where it was.

00:17:22   And in reality, that has never been the case

00:17:25   ever, ever, ever, ever.

00:17:27   - Yeah, I mean, with Windows, I would do the same thing,

00:17:29   because if you're a Windows power user,

00:17:32   you get into the habit of just maybe once a year,

00:17:34   you just reformat your system drive

00:17:36   and put it all back and start clean,

00:17:38   because with Windows you basically have to do that

00:17:41   to have a well-running system.

00:17:42   And once I moved to Macs, I think I've done that,

00:17:45   literally, since the time I started using Macs in 2004,

00:17:49   I think I've started clean twice in that entire time.

00:17:54   - Yeah, I think my first time since '08

00:17:57   was when I got the iMac.

00:17:58   And then I was much more piecemeal about it

00:18:01   rather than just transferring everything.

00:18:02   or like doing a migration assistance style thing.

00:18:06   But anyway, yeah, so that was an extraordinarily long answer

00:18:10   to the question that John asked,

00:18:11   which was do you guys partition your drives?

00:18:12   And John, I'm assuming you did say you do

00:18:15   or you're going to say you do, I assume?

00:18:17   - Yeah, I do.

00:18:19   Not my main drive, but I have so many drives hooked up

00:18:21   to this, they're all split up into little pieces,

00:18:22   mostly because the drives are so big,

00:18:24   it'd be a waste to dedicate,

00:18:26   I'm not gonna dedicate one terabyte to bootcamp, right?

00:18:28   So that drive is split up and other drives

00:18:31   are just divided into pieces.

00:18:33   And I've never done the separate user directory.

00:18:36   A lot of people do that.

00:18:37   Like, they have their home directory and all their files

00:18:39   on one drive, and then basically a boot drive with the OS on it

00:18:43   and their applications.

00:18:44   And I never quite understood that split.

00:18:46   And any time I ever try to split like that, back in the old days

00:18:49   of very tiny hard drives, I always got it wrong.

00:18:51   Like, you try to guess how big everything is

00:18:53   and give room for growth.

00:18:54   And if you guess wrong on the operating system,

00:18:57   it's like, system 7.5.5 comes out,

00:19:00   and it's a little bit bigger, and it's

00:19:03   so easy to get that messed up.

00:19:05   So I think I will use a system like this,

00:19:08   because I have things partitioned now, and I realize,

00:19:11   if I ever got close to my space constraints,

00:19:13   I would have all this wasted space.

00:19:15   And you can resize partitions to some degree,

00:19:16   but it's not as flexible as you'd want.

00:19:18   So I think I will use space sharing.

00:19:19   I won't be confused by the size stuff.

00:19:22   And I suppose other people, normal people

00:19:24   who would be confused, just never partition anything,

00:19:27   so maybe it's a non-issue.

00:19:28   But speaking of time machine, there's

00:19:30   an APFS thing related to that.

00:19:31   First of all, you can't even use time machine with APFS

00:19:33   right now, but that's obviously a temporary condition.

00:19:36   APFS doesn't provide any particular new features

00:19:40   that make it easier for you to answer the question,

00:19:43   hey, what's happened since the last time I ran a backup?

00:19:46   I mean, a little bit.

00:19:47   But basically, it's still going to have to use something like FS

00:19:50   events, where any I/O that goes through the kernel

00:19:53   is logged in some fashion, and then you

00:19:55   can find out what has changed since the last time you

00:19:57   ran probably with the same APIs, but in a similar fashion.

00:20:01   So it doesn't have something like ZFS's give me

00:20:03   the block div since last time.

00:20:05   And even if it had that, even though that's super efficient,

00:20:08   it doesn't quite work with Time Machine's UI,

00:20:10   because Time Machine lets you exclude things.

00:20:11   And if you do anything at the block level,

00:20:13   you can't be excluding as easily as based on file path

00:20:17   or whatever.

00:20:18   So APFS doesn't give any advantages

00:20:21   to Time Machine in terms of that kind of efficiency,

00:20:23   but it does give lots of advantages

00:20:25   in terms of making a consistent backup.

00:20:28   We talked about this before in the WBC show with snapshots

00:20:31   where Time Machine can take a snapshot of the drive

00:20:34   as it exists in a certain state and then just slowly back up

00:20:37   from that snapshot.

00:20:38   So it won't have to worry about like Time Machine ran

00:20:41   for three hours and when it started backing up,

00:20:44   it backed up these files,

00:20:45   but these files it backed up three hours later.

00:20:47   So you have this weird mixture of different time periods.

00:20:51   It's like painting the Golden Gate Bridge or whatever.

00:20:52   You gotta go back to the beginning

00:20:53   and find any tiles to change.

00:20:55   You're waiting for this period, this sort of period of quiet when things have settled down.

00:20:59   Don't worry about that with snapshots.

00:21:00   Just take a snapshot back up from there.

00:21:02   Destroy the snapshot when you're done.

00:21:03   That'll be great.

00:21:05   And also for the purpose of this gets into the next thing for the purpose of making multiple backups where the files that haven't changed are the same sort of the time machine models.

00:21:16   You can go to the finder and browse your backups and they all look like complete copies of your data.

00:21:20   But of course, they're not storing the unchanged data multiple times.

00:21:23   They're using hard links.

00:21:24   So they have hard links to files and hard links to directories,

00:21:27   but you're gross and weird.

00:21:28   You don't have to have those anymore because of the copy

00:21:31   on write stuff that APFS has.

00:21:34   And you can do clones where you can clone an entire directory

00:21:37   and say, this entire directory tree, make a copy of it,

00:21:40   but not really.

00:21:41   You can do it basically in constant time.

00:21:43   You're not actually copying everything.

00:21:45   You're just saying, now there are two of these.

00:21:46   And they are independent copies.

00:21:47   If you were to go into the copy and modify a file,

00:21:49   you're not modifying the file in both places

00:21:51   like you would with a hard link or something.

00:21:53   It's copy on write.

00:21:54   So as soon as you modify one of the change files,

00:21:56   then they start to diverge.

00:21:58   But the actual copy operation is just a clone operation.

00:22:01   It's very, very fast.

00:22:02   It's one of the demos they did in the WWDC session.

00:22:06   That has some people paranoid, because they're like, well,

00:22:09   frequently when I'm working on something,

00:22:10   I'll go to the Finder and duplicate it and put

00:22:13   the other one off to the side.

00:22:14   Poor man's version control.

00:22:15   You ever do that, where you just make a copy of a folder

00:22:17   just in case and put it to the side?

00:22:19   All the time.

00:22:20   And it's like, well, but sometimes I do that.

00:22:23   What if one of the things gets corrupted because there's a bad sector on disk?

00:22:25   Well, if my clone is an actual clone, the bad sector on disk is going to blow away both of them or, you know, corrupt both of them because they're they share the same storage under the covers.

00:22:35   Well, APS doesn't dictate that every single copy is a clone.

00:22:39   There'll be two different APIs.

00:22:40   I'm not sure which one the Finder will use.

00:22:42   I'm assuming it will use the fast one.

00:22:43   But even if the Finder doesn't offer this feature, there will be a way.

00:22:49   I'm sure from the command line, but if not,

00:22:50   you could write a program to do it to say,

00:22:51   no, do like a regular copy where you just copy it.

00:22:54   Don't do the clone thing.

00:22:56   So that's another UI nuance that Apple

00:23:00   will have to decide how to navigate

00:23:01   and that users will get to take advantage of.

00:23:02   And honestly, I think it's good to have both features.

00:23:04   Sometimes I do want to make a clone

00:23:07   of this gigantic directory tree for free in constant time.

00:23:11   And other times I want to say, no,

00:23:12   actually copy every single one of this pieces of data

00:23:15   to a new place on disk, because that's what I want.

00:23:18   I look forward to hopefully it's like a modifier key you can hold down or something. I look forward

00:23:22   that being exposed in the finder, but I am resigned to the fact that I'll probably end

00:23:26   up having to do it from the command line. And the other fun thing about clones, this is sort of for

00:23:31   Apple's purposes, again, this whole this whole file system is for Apple's purposes, is that it

00:23:35   can be atomic. Apple has a lot of things in the system, including some file formats, quote unquote

00:23:40   file formats that are actually directories full of files like dot RTFD is actually a directory

00:23:46   full of a bunch of other things. And in a simple application like I was gonna say teach text geez,

00:23:52   what the hell is it called text edit? Yeah, on Mac OS, text that it can make RTFD,

00:23:59   quote unquote files, which are really directory trees. And when you save, it's trying to do like

00:24:04   a safe save where if the plug gets pulled in the middle of your save operation, you either have the

00:24:09   new version of the file, the old version, you don't have like half and half. So the atomic save

00:24:14   of operation now will do like this is also in the W2C session, if I recall correctly,

00:24:20   it will like write the new version of the file to a new location, rename the old one

00:24:24   to a weird name and rename the new directory on top of the old one. But there's still a

00:24:28   period in which things are inconsistent when you rename the old one to a new name, but

00:24:32   you haven't yet renamed the new one on top of it. Now you have two files, neither of

00:24:36   which is named like the old one. And they might both be hidden because you don't want

00:24:39   people to see this weird stuff going on. So that's not great.

00:24:43   In APFS, you can do an atomic clone. And so you can sort of,

00:24:48   in one operation, one atomic operation, they completely do

00:24:52   it or completely not do it. You have the old file, you have the

00:24:54   new file. And of course, it's super efficient and all the

00:24:56   other stuff. So that's, that's gonna be it's gonna meet for

00:25:00   people writing applications, if they have similar file formats,

00:25:02   it'll make those file formats more tenable, because before it

00:25:04   was just kind of such a pain, and you knew you had this race

00:25:06   condition where things could be in a weird state

00:25:10   for a small period of time.

00:25:11   You can even see it in the finder

00:25:12   sometimes because the finder is now actually reactive

00:25:14   to changes.

00:25:15   Where if you watched when text edit saved,

00:25:17   you'd see these weird temporary files and a double file

00:25:20   and a rename on top of the other one.

00:25:21   And with cloning, hopefully that will go so fast

00:25:23   that you won't see it anymore.

00:25:24   Yeah, my favorite is, since I've been doing a lot of switch

00:25:27   development lately, just like Marco,

00:25:29   I've had a playground on my desktop.

00:25:31   And every time that the playground goes to save itself

00:25:34   if I save it, it'll flash from the Playground icon to the generic folder icon and then back

00:25:41   to the Playground icon once Finder catches up and realizes it's one of those bundles.

00:25:45   That's actually, I remember when that feature came to the Finder, having an efficient way to

00:25:51   tell the kernel, "Hey, I'm interested if anything happens to any one of these files. So if anything

00:25:55   changes one of these files, I don't care what process it is in the whole system, let me know

00:25:59   so I don't have to poll." Because the old model was like, if you had a Finder window open and

00:26:03   and other applications were changing it.

00:26:05   It's like the Finder window could poll periodically.

00:26:07   And if it was polling,

00:26:07   you would never catch a change that's that fast.

00:26:09   But because it's using KQ or FS events

00:26:12   or some other system that is, you know,

00:26:14   that's not polling that the kernel will notify the Finder,

00:26:17   it's fast enough to catch almost any change.

00:26:20   In fact, it might still catch the clone,

00:26:21   but hopefully it will only like flash briefly

00:26:24   and you'll see the old file

00:26:26   and then blink and then the new file

00:26:27   and never will you see the weird,

00:26:29   I've renamed this to not be an RTFD anymore

00:26:32   or not be a .playground anymore or whatever.

00:26:34   I guess the final item is snapshots

00:26:37   that we already talked about.

00:26:38   I wonder if there'll be any UI to that.

00:26:40   Probably not, 'cause it's more like a programmatic thing.

00:26:43   Time machine will be creating and deleting snapshots

00:26:45   behind the scenes, but you don't need to see that.

00:26:47   Programs like SuperDuper might create snapshots

00:26:50   to back up from, but you don't need to see that either.

00:26:51   It'll probably do it through an API.

00:26:53   There will be a command line, I'm sure,

00:26:55   but I can't envision any particular reason

00:26:57   for there to ever be a GUI for doing snapshots.

00:27:01   So I guess another third party opportunity.

00:27:03   Because it's a straightforward API,

00:27:04   and you can make a cool third party thing

00:27:06   that lets you view and create and destroy snapshots.

00:27:11   I'm not making that app, but that's another idea

00:27:14   for people who want to make an application

00:27:16   that the three people will buy.

00:27:18   - You know, Jon, there's a lot of app ideas

00:27:20   that I'm like, you know, I would love for this app to exist.

00:27:24   And you look around and it just doesn't exist.

00:27:27   And at some point, you got, you know, you're a programmer,

00:27:29   at some point you gotta be like, you know what,

00:27:30   Fine, I'm gonna make it.

00:27:32   - Well, I imagine someone will make that snapshot thing.

00:27:35   Like, you ever see like backup loop

00:27:37   or the time machine browsing things

00:27:39   that let you like look at your time machine backups

00:27:41   that are like, that are fancy interfaces

00:27:43   to the TM util command line?

00:27:45   There's lots of GUI apps like that.

00:27:46   I'm sure someone will make one

00:27:47   just because if an app like this is easy to make,

00:27:50   all you're doing is making it more convenient

00:27:52   to do stuff that you could do from the command line,

00:27:54   someone will make it.

00:27:55   So I feel like just by talking about it,

00:27:56   it will come into existence.

00:27:58   - Yeah, but you know what else though?

00:28:00   Even if somebody makes it,

00:28:02   they're not gonna make it your way.

00:28:04   - Truth. - That's true.

00:28:06   - So you have to do it, Jon, it's obvious.

00:28:08   - I'll say, I don't understand

00:28:11   when I would do any of these things.

00:28:13   It's not like I have a lot of time

00:28:15   that's not occupied with other stuff

00:28:17   that I would rather be doing.

00:28:18   - Brian Ash in the chat just made an excellent point.

00:28:22   He said that Underscore is listening

00:28:24   and he just completed it, which is probably accurate.

00:28:27   - But he made the iOS version, so it's not good for me.

00:28:29   No good for me.

00:28:31   Fair enough.

00:28:32   All right.

00:28:33   Are we done with APFS?

00:28:35   Is that it?

00:28:36   Yeah, I think so.

00:28:37   These are things we already talked about in WWDC thing.

00:28:39   I don't think there's anything new.

00:28:40   We didn't have many questions from listeners about it.

00:28:44   Although I did, no one has yet called me on the mistakes I made about ASCII, 7-bit ASCII

00:28:51   versus 8-bit ASCII and UTF-8, but I guess no one cares.

00:28:54   That's fine.

00:28:55   I know I made the mistakes.

00:28:58   who know know I made the mistakes.

00:28:59   It was really not mistakes, it was just errors of omission,

00:29:02   because it doesn't make any sense.

00:29:02   I kept saying 255, but obviously,

00:29:05   if you're gonna use all 255 combinations of eight bits,

00:29:09   you have no way to implement UTF-8,

00:29:11   and that's obviously not how it works.

00:29:13   So, anyway.

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00:31:16   (upbeat music)

00:31:18   I have some important follow-up, actually.

00:31:22   The surprise follow-up.

00:31:23   - I think you missed that part of the show,

00:31:25   but go ahead.

00:31:26   (laughing)

00:31:27   - I have follow up on HDMI CEC, your favorite topic.

00:31:32   - Oh God, oh, are you an HDMI CEC unicorn or no longer?

00:31:37   - Ever since I got the new Apple TV, so what was that?

00:31:39   October, November, whenever that was.

00:31:42   My TV is very old, it's like a 2006-ish Panasonic Plasma.

00:31:47   The Apple TV was not able to do anything else to it

00:31:50   except any input given to the Apple TV remote,

00:31:54   it would automatically switch the input over

00:31:56   to the Apple TV.

00:31:57   So it was able to steal the input,

00:31:59   the video input from the TV,

00:32:00   so which was really fun.

00:32:01   If Tiff was playing a game on the PlayStation

00:32:03   and then you brush the remote

00:32:05   and all of a sudden the input switches, that was fun.

00:32:06   But so that, and it couldn't turn the TV on,

00:32:10   but it could turn the TV off,

00:32:12   which was really nice.

00:32:13   Every night, we're done watching TV,

00:32:16   hold down the home button for a few seconds,

00:32:18   you hit sleep, and both things turn off.

00:32:20   It's awesome.

00:32:22   and that worked flawlessly.

00:32:24   And now it just doesn't.

00:32:26   And it's so much worse.

00:32:28   And I've tried power cycling everything.

00:32:30   I have no idea what to do.

00:32:32   Like nothing changed.

00:32:34   It's exactly like what you said.

00:32:35   It was like, you know, it'll work

00:32:37   and it'll just stop working.

00:32:38   And you have no idea why and nothing fixes it.

00:32:41   Like it just stopped.

00:32:43   And it's so frustrating.

00:32:45   Now, like once you have that convenience

00:32:48   to have to then go back

00:32:49   and now I have to turn my TV off separately,

00:32:51   which means I have to have the remote out and everything.

00:32:54   This is the worst first world problem ever,

00:32:58   but I just wanted you to know, John,

00:33:00   that HDMI CEC, that your prediction came true,

00:33:05   that it never works all the time for everybody,

00:33:08   and if it does, just wait.

00:33:09   - Well, the good news is it'll start working again

00:33:12   eventually, too.

00:33:13   (laughing)

00:33:14   I guess all part of the experience.

00:33:15   One day, who knows what it'll be like.

00:33:17   You'll disconnect it or you'll reconnect something else,

00:33:20   it will start working again.

00:33:21   And back when we were discussing this,

00:33:23   I did hear from a lot of people, like, CEC works fine to me.

00:33:26   Sometimes I would hear from them again a couple months later,

00:33:28   go, oh, it stopped working.

00:33:31   Exactly.

00:33:31   But not always.

00:33:32   I bet.

00:33:33   Just like there are tactical wizards,

00:33:34   there are CEC unicorns who just have never had a problem.

00:33:38   And so if their luck continues, it's

00:33:41   possible to live a life where a CEC always works.

00:33:44   It just seems highly unlikely to me.

00:33:45   I've never met one of those people,

00:33:47   but I'm sure they exist somewhere.

00:33:48   I mean, someone wins the lottery too, right?

00:33:50   Serious question, Marco.

00:33:52   Have you gone into the settings to see--

00:33:54   because I could swear that in settings, it has an option

00:33:57   whether or not to use CEC.

00:33:59   Of course, it's not labeled that way.

00:34:01   But it's like, turn off the TV power

00:34:03   when the Apple TV power turns off or something like that.

00:34:06   And not to say that you changed it,

00:34:08   but maybe a software update flipped that on you

00:34:11   or something like that.

00:34:12   And maybe that's what did it?

00:34:13   Yeah, can you just check to make sure it's plugged in?

00:34:15   Not to say that you unplugged it.

00:34:17   Just take out the plug.

00:34:19   - Sometimes there's dust in the plug, yeah.

00:34:21   You just want dust.

00:34:22   - Yeah, just blow on the plug, yeah.

00:34:23   - You're the worst.

00:34:24   Here I am trying to help you, and that's what I get.

00:34:26   Fine.

00:34:27   - I actually haven't checked the setting.

00:34:28   - For the power thing, though,

00:34:30   isn't there IR still in the remote?

00:34:32   - Yes. - Yes.

00:34:33   - So can't you just use that for the power?

00:34:35   Like, take CEC out of the equation,

00:34:37   just use the IR for the power for your TV.

00:34:39   - I don't think there's a way to tell the Apple TV,

00:34:42   like, send the IR thing now.

00:34:44   I think it only works for volume control.

00:34:45   - That's what I thought, too,

00:34:46   but it might be worth looking into.

00:34:49   I don't know, Joe Steele loves his Apple TV.

00:34:50   You can ask him about it.

00:34:52   - I mean, honestly, I'm very happy with the Apple TV

00:34:55   in most other ways.

00:34:56   Yeah, the remote's stupid, but the software environment,

00:35:00   yes, there are many flaws.

00:35:01   However, having used the other TV boxes

00:35:04   that are competing with this,

00:35:06   and even compared to the old Apple TV,

00:35:08   this is still the one I prefer,

00:35:11   and I still use it for very heavy use every day.

00:35:16   And it's unfortunate that it is not perfect, of course,

00:35:19   but nothing ever is that it can't be complained about.

00:35:23   - Good try, good try.

00:35:25   - Yeah, yeah.

00:35:25   - Well, so my world, I mean, I don't know if you remember,

00:35:29   you've seen my table with a thousand remotes on it.

00:35:31   My CC is against my religion, I do not,

00:35:33   I have it in the table everywhere.

00:35:34   And I also have a thousand remotes,

00:35:37   and I don't have a universal remote,

00:35:39   but here's the thing about a thousand remotes,

00:35:40   they never don't work.

00:35:42   And when I use the correct remote to do all the things,

00:35:44   they always work, and there are never

00:35:46   any weird interactions and the boxes don't know each other exists and that's the way

00:35:49   it should be.

00:35:50   I did enable it at one point for my entire setup, but my setup is way too complicated.

00:35:55   I could barely get it to work momentarily.

00:35:56   I'm like, "This is untenable."

00:35:58   I would see it break within minutes because of me not turning things on in the right order,

00:36:03   so I immediately turned it off everywhere, which is a shame because there are a couple

00:36:05   of features that I would like, but I get by pretty well with all my remotes knowing how

00:36:10   to do IR stuff so I can do volume up and down on the TV and power on the TV from a bunch

00:36:14   of different remotes.

00:36:15   IR and learning is fairly stable technology,

00:36:19   not like the CSU stuff.

00:36:21   - Yeah, I'm also, I think I'm on your side

00:36:23   in regards to what appears to be your position

00:36:26   on universal remotes.

00:36:27   We have a Logitech Harmony something or other,

00:36:31   and we bought it a few years ago

00:36:34   to try to combat this issue,

00:36:36   and I just have never, we've never found

00:36:40   a universal remote that is actually worth,

00:36:44   it's actually a net gain, you know?

00:36:46   Like, it's almost like the XKCD comic of like,

00:36:49   you know, all these standards are a mess.

00:36:52   What we need is a new standard.

00:36:53   Like, that's kind of what, like, it's like,

00:36:56   I have too many remotes, what I need is another remote.

00:36:58   And then you just have more remotes.

00:37:00   Like, and you can't actually get rid of all the remotes

00:37:03   'cause you still need them sometimes to do certain things.

00:37:05   And sometimes the universal remote like,

00:37:07   gets like, unsynced with the state of the things

00:37:10   and so it thinks things are in a certain state

00:37:12   that they're not in and,

00:37:13   It's just such a pain.

00:37:14   And then now my remote has firmware that needs to be updated,

00:37:18   that needs to be on my Wi-Fi network,

00:37:19   and then it's just like, it's just a pain.

00:37:22   It's such a pain.

00:37:23   - I couldn't agree with that more.

00:37:25   We had a very old Harmony or equivalent,

00:37:28   I don't know, three, four years ago now,

00:37:31   and I didn't understand how it could possibly work

00:37:33   until I realized that it was tracking the state

00:37:36   of the system as best it could.

00:37:38   But just like you said,

00:37:39   it can't actually know the state of the system,

00:37:42   So it was constantly losing track of things.

00:37:45   And when it worked, it was brilliant,

00:37:47   but it almost never worked.

00:37:49   And it was very frustrating.

00:37:51   - And I continue to believe that a good universal remote

00:37:55   would actually simplify things,

00:37:56   especially for the members of my family who are not me.

00:37:59   But as we discussed at some point about car stuff,

00:38:03   I'm a climate control micromanager in the car.

00:38:06   Like I want the individual controls for fan speed

00:38:08   and temperature and which direction the air is flowing.

00:38:11   and I'm exactly the same way with TV.

00:38:12   I have a million remotes, I know what all of them do,

00:38:15   I know which things I want on for which shows

00:38:18   at which time depending on my mood and just,

00:38:21   it feels to me that the part of my brain is activated

00:38:26   is exactly the same part of my brain is activated

00:38:28   when I'm messing with climate controls in car.

00:38:29   And so I don't pretend this is an optimal setup,

00:38:31   but it has the advantages of being completely understandable

00:38:34   to me and deterministic and I micromanage it.

00:38:40   I just, you know, when do I want the big speakers on?

00:38:43   Or the little ones, do I want surround decoding?

00:38:45   Or is this thing stereo and then I wanna turn on

00:38:47   the Dolby Digital thing?

00:38:48   And do I want, down to like the Apple TV apps,

00:38:51   like do I wanna use Infuse to try to get it to send

00:38:53   the unmodified DTS and do the decoding on the Apple TV?

00:38:56   Or do I wanna let the iMac do it and do it through Plex?

00:38:59   And that's how I, like I wish it was simpler.

00:39:02   I wish there was one app in one box in one interface

00:39:05   and all my stuff was in one place,

00:39:06   but that's just not the case.

00:39:08   And so since things are in a million other places,

00:39:10   having a million remotes and a million things to adjust

00:39:12   seems like an honest representation of the reality

00:39:15   of where the hell my media is.

00:39:17   And I don't think it's unlearnable.

00:39:19   I think I'm trying to see who is the second place person

00:39:21   in the family who understands the system.

00:39:23   It's probably one of my kids, maybe my youngest.

00:39:27   I don't know, nobody really understands it fully

00:39:28   except for me, which is potentially a problem.

00:39:30   Maybe I should write something down like,

00:39:32   if I get hit by a bus, here's how to watch TV.

00:39:34   (laughing)

00:39:36   And you a** make fun of me for vinyl?

00:39:39   Oh, it's not like there was vinyl.

00:39:42   This is just the interface wise.

00:39:44   Like, like I said, I've, I've never bought a universal remote, but I assume,

00:39:47   I assume it would make things easier.

00:39:49   Um, especially if you have universal remote and you turn on CEC everywhere,

00:39:53   then maybe it would have a way to detect and it could repair CEC screwed up.

00:39:57   But who knows?

00:39:58   Maybe not.

00:39:58   I have, I still do have devices that are IR only.

00:40:01   And so you have to have like IR blasters and other crap like that.

00:40:04   So, oh, you just like it for the ceremony.

00:40:06   It's a terribly inferior standard, but you just like it's not it's not about ceremony. It's all just like it's there's no ceremony to micro

00:40:12   managing the climate control the car

00:40:14   It's just like well

00:40:14   I know how high I want the fan speed and I know what I want the temperature set to and I know if I want

00:40:18   Coming out the top vents of the bottom vents are both or defroster

00:40:21   I knew all those things so I can just set them directly

00:40:23   I'm so happy that I don't stress about those sorts of things. You know what I do in my car

00:40:28   I hit the auto button and then I usually hit the all button that Marco wishes Tiff's car had

00:40:33   And then I set a temperature and then I don't friggin think about it anymore. It's like the automatic transmission of climate control

00:40:41   But you know Casey if you manage it yourself, then it would just it would it would feel

00:40:46   Warmer and less artificial it would remind you of your childhood

00:40:51   This note there is no final analogy to be had here

00:40:54   there's absolutely no connection to vinyl whatsoever because it's not like

00:40:58   The video or sound changes quality depending on what remotes I use you understand. This is the vinyl analogy

00:41:04   Throw it out the window. You can't even throw it back in case he spends face to make fun of it because it makes no sense

00:41:09   I can try

00:41:13   I've been visiting you know the well you may not but the emoji of the woman with her arms like an across in front of

00:41:18   Her face I'm envisioning John doing that sitting in front of his computer. That's exactly what I look like

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00:43:21   Thanks a lot to Amazon Music for sponsoring our show.

00:43:24   (upbeat music)

00:43:27   - Anyway, are we talking about email?

00:43:29   Are we talking about parenting?

00:43:31   Pick your poison.

00:43:32   - Oh man, that's a tough one.

00:43:33   We did get a lot of feedback after the last,

00:43:36   so in the last episode we kind of joked in the after show

00:43:39   that if we run out of topics,

00:43:41   we're gonna have to talk about those things.

00:43:42   And then we got a lot of responses from people saying,

00:43:45   please talk about one or the other of those things.

00:43:48   I think if I had to take a guess, I think parenting might have come out ahead.

00:43:52   I think so. It's not parenting.

00:43:53   It's specifically screen time for kids. That's right. Yeah.

00:43:56   Very, very old piece of follow up.

00:43:58   I think that was the one that's in the most dimension.

00:44:00   It's not like there's not stuff below it, but Intel making chips for phones

00:44:03   and Chromebooks out selling Macs and letterpress moving off game center.

00:44:05   There are other things, but I feel like

00:44:07   I don't feel like we're scraping the bottom of the barrel for this.

00:44:10   I think this is just a better topic than those other ones.

00:44:12   Both of these, I think, are better topics.

00:44:13   The the the request was what exactly?

00:44:17   let's say Peter Beardsley wrote in.

00:44:19   - We still have this?

00:44:20   I was joking.

00:44:21   He is no longer listening to the show,

00:44:24   but a year and a half ago, Peter Beardsley wrote in.

00:44:27   He has since retired,

00:44:29   and no longer even uses computers anymore.

00:44:31   His kids are in college now.

00:44:32   - That's very true.

00:44:35   He had written in and said,

00:44:36   "John has been talking about playing Destiny with his kid.

00:44:38   Marco posts pictures of him playing games on an iPad.

00:44:42   The topic of quote unquote screen time

00:44:44   is a controversial one in my household.

00:44:46   How do you determine what is an appropriate amount?

00:44:48   My wife has her opinions, and I have mine, but I'd love to hear yours as well."

00:44:52   So at this point, this is when we really anger anyone who we haven't angered yet in the

00:44:57   entire course of the show.

00:44:59   No, but most parents don't get angry.

00:45:01   I think most parents are beaten down by reality and eventually realize people have different

00:45:05   parenting ideas.

00:45:06   So it's a tiny minority of parents that are all high and mighty.

00:45:09   Having kids is the best thing to teach you that you don't know the first thing about

00:45:11   having kids.

00:45:15   As for the framing of this topic, like, I don't really, like, not that I don't accept

00:45:20   the premise, but the premise itself contains some opinionated information, which is that

00:45:26   "screen time" in quotes, which is a phrase I think we've all heard from either from ourselves

00:45:30   saying it or other parents and stuff, that there is a category of activities that your

00:45:36   kid can do that involves them looking at a screen, which is basically an electronic thing

00:45:41   that shows moving images on it, that that is a valid categorization. Like we don't talk about

00:45:47   like yellow sock time, how much time do you let your kids wear yellow socks? How much time do you

00:45:51   let them touch the floor floor time, like it's screen time specifically, and encoded in that is

00:45:57   sort of a an unquestioning demonization to some degree of technology. And like, why is reading a

00:46:06   book not screen time. If you read a book on an iPad, does it

00:46:09   become screen time because it's on a screen like that screens

00:46:13   themselves like again, I don't think this it's not it's not

00:46:15   like a heavy message. But in in this in this word in this phrase

00:46:19   in this entire concept in this question that comes up, the idea

00:46:23   that looking at a screen is a fundamental aspect of an

00:46:26   activity I mostly reject and the book one is the best example

00:46:30   because you know these days like oh my kids are reading a book

00:46:33   it's so wonderful feel great about it. But if they're reading

00:46:35   that same exact book on their iPad screen, suddenly they're rotting their brains and

00:46:39   they're just gonna become little zombies and they're just staring at screens all the time.

00:46:42   Same activity, but one has a screen and one doesn't. So, at least for me, I don't categorize

00:46:49   activities based on the piece of technology they're using. I would more categorize it as,

00:46:54   like, what is the activity? Are they watching video? What kind of video is this fiction and

00:47:00   non-fiction, you know? And sometimes you throw something like, oh, they're watching YouTube,

00:47:03   but it's really just shorthand for categorizing the types of things that are on YouTube.

00:47:07   In general, they're not watching a feature-length movie on YouTube,

00:47:09   and they're mostly not watching like serial TV show style things on YouTube. So YouTube is,

00:47:14   you know, as kind of a definition, but reading books, watching movies, many things happen in

00:47:19   front of screens. Writing, my daughter writes a lot and, you know, word processors, writes fiction

00:47:23   and writes down lists and stuff. That's also in front of a screen. I categorize that entirely

00:47:27   differently than her watching, you know, Ever After High or whatever. So that's my opening

00:47:34   statement, I guess, on screen time. How do you guys feel about that? Is that a phrase that is

00:47:37   used ever in your house, or is it how you think about things at all? Some. So it's a little bit

00:47:43   different for me as compared to you guys, because Declan is just today actually 20 months old, and

00:47:48   so he's not even two years. We generally speaking avoided show—well, he'd had no interest in the

00:47:56   the TV for a long time. And once he started to show an interest, we avoided having the

00:48:00   TV on when he was awake and around. That's still mostly the case. We have started, or

00:48:07   Aaron, because I'm at work at the time, has started showing him Sesame Street every day,

00:48:12   which he very, very much enjoys. And then we have my old iPad mini that we have put

00:48:19   a bunch of Daniel Tiger and Sesame Street episodes on. And we'll use that only in desperation

00:48:25   scenarios, typically only when we're in the car because he doesn't particularly like the car.

00:48:30   But other than that, he's very rarely looking at a television screen or an iPad. And I'm not

00:48:37   saying that that's right, but it feels for us like we should probably avoid it at least for now.

00:48:42   But again, it's a little weird because he's only 20 months. I mean, he isn't into it like Adam or

00:48:47   like your kids would be. - Yeah, I mean, for us, you know, Adam is, you know, my kid is four. And

00:48:55   We don't really draw the distinction,

00:48:58   we don't use the term screen time

00:49:00   or any other replacement term for that concept.

00:49:04   And I think it's like so many things in parenting,

00:49:08   it depends on your kid.

00:49:09   In our case, we never specifically glorified things

00:49:14   with screens or made them a forbidden thing

00:49:16   or a thing that was saved for only special occasions.

00:49:19   It's like one toy of many in the house

00:49:22   and Adam could choose to play with the iPad

00:49:24   or can watch TV for a while, or he can do other things.

00:49:28   And we haven't really had to set limits

00:49:31   because the kind of kid he is, at least so far,

00:49:34   he treats it like any other toy.

00:49:36   So he'll be happy to play with the iPad

00:49:38   for maybe 20 minutes, half hour,

00:49:41   and then he'll wanna do something else.

00:49:42   And I think that's kind of a healthy attitude for it

00:49:45   because our philosophy on this,

00:49:48   if it ever came to having to put any kind of limits in

00:49:51   to maintain healthy balances,

00:49:54   Our philosophy is, this is a world full of screens that we live in. It's only getting

00:49:59   more in that direction as we move forward in time. So Adam is growing up in a world

00:50:05   full of screens. To try to keep him from that or limit that artificially in a way that would

00:50:13   make it weird to deal with screens for him or to make it a rebellion of sorts or only

00:50:19   a special treat doesn't really seem like that fits into the world we actually live

00:50:23   live in today. I get the idea of why people want to limit that and what people want their

00:50:29   kids to do instead, I guess be social or go outside or whatever. But I think if you already

00:50:34   have a reasonable balance of activities for your kid, having screens and things with screens

00:50:43   be a part of that, I don't see it as any different from any other toy that he has.

00:50:49   So as kids get older, like you said, it really depends on your kid.

00:50:53   Kids will start picking up more of their own interests.

00:50:55   Like especially in young ages, you can basically control everything they do.

00:50:58   You control the toys they play with because you buy them the toys.

00:51:01   You can even control by not bringing them down the toy aisle that you don't want them

00:51:04   to see the toys that you're not going to buy them.

00:51:06   Like when they're very young, you have a lot of control.

00:51:09   And so you can sort of provide the balance simply by providing a balance of things that

00:51:12   you all approve of.

00:51:13   But of course, kids get older, start getting minds of their own.

00:51:16   And depending on your kid, they have different preferences.

00:51:22   And they will gravitate towards something.

00:51:23   And then no matter what they gravitate towards, maintaining what you think is a healthy balance

00:51:28   may require some intervention.

00:51:30   But again, I'd say that doesn't specifically apply to screens.

00:51:35   So for example, if your kid starts getting older and becomes really into books, and all

00:51:41   they want to do all the time is go up to the room and read.

00:51:43   You're like, "Oh, I would be overjoyed if my kid read all the time."

00:51:46   But at a certain point, they need to learn how to deal with other people and be social.

00:51:50   That's part of growing up too.

00:51:51   So you may find yourself limiting book time because you need your kid to socialize with

00:51:56   other kids to learn how to deal with other people.

00:51:58   Like you're trying to find the right balance for your kid, which the balance isn't the

00:52:01   same for everybody, but most people would say, like, learning to deal with other people

00:52:05   is part of growing up and you can't avoid it, even if you're really, really into whatever

00:52:09   it is that you're into.

00:52:10   Making models or reading books or all these activities that people think are healthy and

00:52:14   you know, that's a good thing to do.

00:52:16   That's why I hate the screen, the categorization of screens.

00:52:21   Certain activities are just accepted by most parents as on a continuum of evil, right?

00:52:25   So reading is one of the best you can do.

00:52:28   Making models is kind of in the middle.

00:52:30   Making models that have electronics may be getting a little worse.

00:52:34   Anything that involves the television, bad.

00:52:37   Anything that involves computers, could be good but probably also bad.

00:52:40   games universally bad, right? And that that that sort of continuum that we all sort of agree upon

00:52:47   before we begin talking about balance. I totally disagree with mostly for the reasons Marco said,

00:52:51   like, we live in a world with screens, we live in a world with television, we live in a world with

00:52:55   recorded music, like, oh, don't listen to those recorded music, it's live music or nothing, you'll

00:52:59   rot your brain like, you know, but not the novel was condemned as something that will be the debt

00:53:04   would be the downfall of humanity when it was introduced to so through the lens of history,

00:53:09   It's obviously ridiculous to think about things in that way, but all of those mediums have things that can provide your kid with something.

00:53:16   So if your kid is only reading, well, it's hard for me to find, like if they're only reading the same kind of simple story over and over again, they're not really growing as a reader, right?

00:53:29   If they're only watching the same kind of television show over and over again, they're not really growing as a viewer of, you know, of moving pictures or whatever.

00:53:37   Like, and if they're only playing the same computer game over and over again, they're

00:53:41   not expanding outwards into that, like that every medium and every form of input and activity

00:53:46   has, like your kids should be crawling up that ladder and becoming more sophisticated and

00:53:52   learning and growing and all the activities that they do. And if they're not, that's, you know,

00:53:57   it's something you have to be aware of, but there's nothing inherent, I believe, in any of

00:54:01   the specific activities that makes them better or worse. Like, I would rather my kids watch a YouTube

00:54:06   video like a science YouTube video, then like, read a silly book about fairies and rainbows

00:54:14   that is two years below their grade level that they've read 50 times before like one

00:54:18   of them uses a screen and one of them is a book and supposedly like the perfect thing

00:54:22   that we want our children to do but then you can't you can't view them that way you can't

00:54:25   slot them in by the by the media. So that's definitely how I look at things and and I'm

00:54:32   I'm really, with my kids, mostly looking at what they are drawn to and figuring out what

00:54:36   I have to put limits on based on what if I didn't put limits they would just do obsessively.

00:54:42   And it's not always watch a television show or play a video game.

00:54:46   It could be any activity they do obsessively.

00:54:49   One of my kids always wants to go and hang out with her friends and my son mostly will

00:54:53   stay inside and not see anybody.

00:54:56   So we're trying to push one out of the house all the time and the other one trying to get

00:54:59   to calm down a lot.

00:55:00   every kid is different. Yeah, I don't know what we're gonna do in the future. I think

00:55:06   it's funny because I was very resentful of my parents or extended family putting limits on our

00:55:16   screen time. Like I think Marco and I have talked about, although maybe it never made it in the show,

00:55:20   when we were kids and we hung out, so we were, I don't know, eight, ten, twelve, something like

00:55:25   that. Yeah, we would meet up and we would hang out and then my grandmother would inevitably,

00:55:30   or Marco's mom would inevitably tell us, "Okay, you've played enough on the computer,

00:55:34   it's time to go outside now." And I remember being really, really resentful of that because

00:55:39   we were having a great time and we were, in some cases, doing things that you could argue

00:55:45   were productive. Like, I vividly remember spending hours on the world's crappiest

00:55:49   Choose Your Own Adventure visual basic 1.0 game. And it wasn't always Transport Tycoon,

00:55:56   although damned if we didn't play a lot of Transport Tycoon.

00:55:59   But yeah, that might have been more than half of it.

00:56:02   Nevertheless, I remember being so resentful of the "get outside" shtick.

00:56:08   But here I am now, a parent, and I feel like I'm reverting into that same mindset of, "Oh,

00:56:16   you probably shouldn't be playing on the iPad constantly," which again, he doesn't because

00:56:20   he's so young, but I could see it happening.

00:56:22   You probably shouldn't be on the iPad constantly, you should probably go outside.

00:56:26   And I feel like now is the time to instill within him that he needs to be a well-rounded

00:56:32   person.

00:56:33   But I agree completely with what both of you said, that the reality of the situation is

00:56:38   that part of being well-rounded in today's society is being comfortable in front of a

00:56:41   screen.

00:56:42   So I don't know what the right answer is, and obviously Aaron and I will have to kind

00:56:47   of fake it till we make it.

00:56:48   Well, I guess you never really make it in parenting, but you know what I mean.

00:56:52   And we'll see how it shakes out.

00:56:54   Fake it till they go to college.

00:56:55   Yeah, right? We'll see how it shakes out as he gets older and perhaps starts requesting

00:56:59   these things, but it's nice because like Jon had said, we have that control now where he

00:57:03   doesn't ever really see the iPad, and so it's not, he won't know or ask for it unless we

00:57:12   say to him, "Do you want to watch Daniel Tiger or do you want to watch Sesame Street or what

00:57:15   have you?"

00:57:16   I think it's also worth pointing out that, you know, we as parents, like, it's, the kids

00:57:23   kids can look and see what we do,

00:57:25   and it would be awfully hypocritical of us to say,

00:57:29   you know, you need to limit your screen time

00:57:32   while we sit there using screens for way more time

00:57:35   during the day than that.

00:57:36   And like they know that, they can see that,

00:57:38   like they're not gonna respect a rule

00:57:40   or the parents making that rule

00:57:42   if the parents themselves are blatantly violating it

00:57:45   all the time.

00:57:46   - Yep, I'm guilty of that.

00:57:48   - Well, like I said, you looking at a screen

00:57:50   doesn't mean you're doing the same thing.

00:57:51   I think my kids do differentiate it roughly,

00:57:53   If they know when I'm working, you know, sometimes I'm working on my, so they can tell the difference

00:57:58   between me working versus me reading Twitter versus me watching a YouTube video, which

00:58:02   I might invite them to join into.

00:58:06   It's this specific activity that's the issue.

00:58:08   Casey mentioned it in terms of like them becoming competent with screens.

00:58:12   And for the most part, I don't think that's something we need to put an effort into it

00:58:15   because it's, it would be very, unless your kid like really doesn't like them at all.

00:58:19   And then you might want to make sure they have some minimum competence, but I don't

00:58:22   think there's any effort we need to make.

00:58:23   That's just going to happen, right?

00:58:24   Um, they can't help but be competent because they're surrounded by them

00:58:28   because we have a million of these devices at home and then they'll see them

00:58:31   at school and everything, so that's going to take care of itself.

00:58:32   But really what I'm thinking of is what are they doing?

00:58:35   Like the fact that the screen doesn't, doesn't, is not a factor as far as I'm

00:58:39   concerned, because I don't think there's magic radiation rotting their brains

00:58:41   coming out of like backlit screens.

00:58:43   It's what are they actually doing?

00:58:45   Are they learning something?

00:58:47   Are they reading Wikipedia pages?

00:58:48   Are they, if they're watching some kind of video, is it, is it a

00:58:53   television show that I approve of in terms of, you know, is it

00:58:57   constructive in some way? Or are they playing a game that is

00:58:59   teaching them something instead of you know, just being as you

00:59:02   know, is it age appropriate as a lot of you know, is it should

00:59:05   you be watching this television show this movie, this YouTube

00:59:07   video, whatever, what are you getting out of this? Are you

00:59:09   watching the same kind of thing over and over again? Are you

00:59:12   playing the same kind of game over and over? And of course, as

00:59:15   you'll see this as your kids get older, I imagine this will not

00:59:18   be a thing that goes away. But anyone who has kids in double

00:59:21   Digit Ages knows the thing of like multiple screens there.

00:59:24   My son is forever has his iPad playing YouTube videos,

00:59:29   you know, in a loop based, not in a loop,

00:59:31   but like with on autopilot, like he doesn't pick the videos.

00:59:34   He just accepts whatever plays next.

00:59:36   This is the amazing power that YouTube has

00:59:38   over our children.

00:59:39   Listening to that on headphones while playing a video game

00:59:43   on the television or on like the PlayStation on the monitor.

00:59:46   Like, so he's hearing audio from a YouTube video

00:59:49   while playing a video game.

00:59:51   And then I guess occasionally glancing down at that thing

00:59:53   and then his phone is also on the desk

00:59:54   and so he's getting texts from friends at the same time.

00:59:56   How do you even parse that?

00:59:59   But that's a thing that people do all the time,

01:00:00   kids do all the time these days.

01:00:02   So now you have to look at like the three things

01:00:04   that they're doing.

01:00:05   Is he communicating well with his friends?

01:00:08   What are the YouTube videos that are playing?

01:00:10   Are the YouTube videos related to the game

01:00:11   that he's playing and he's trying to learn strategies

01:00:13   and then implement them?

01:00:14   Like for people who demonize video games

01:00:17   that may be like, oh, that's double bad.

01:00:19   He's playing a stupid video game, which I don't like,

01:00:22   and he's watching a video about how to play the video game.

01:00:24   What an incredible waste of time.

01:00:26   But essentially what he's doing is like skills

01:00:29   that come in handy, not just for schoolwork,

01:00:32   but for regular work, like where you have to learn

01:00:34   how to do something sort of on the job while you're doing it

01:00:37   and you want to be able to do the thing

01:00:38   that you're doing better.

01:00:39   And so you're essentially doing research to,

01:00:42   it's very similar to programming

01:00:44   and then just like going to the website

01:00:45   and looking at the documentation

01:00:46   and having the code in another window

01:00:48   and having the web browser open over there.

01:00:49   Like we all do that all the time.

01:00:51   This is the video game thing is the equivalent of that.

01:00:54   And I mean, it really helps if you're a gamer

01:00:56   and you understand that these things

01:00:57   aren't just all mindless,

01:00:58   that they're actually fairly complicated.

01:01:00   And, you know, I mean, you know, from Transport Tycoon,

01:01:03   like you learned things about,

01:01:05   you didn't have the internet probably in those days

01:01:06   where you could look up awesome strategies

01:01:08   for Transport Tycoon and stuff,

01:01:09   but they're surprisingly deep.

01:01:11   And the skills you learn have able to like juggle strategies

01:01:14   and write things down with a pencil and paper

01:01:16   and use them to excel in this thing you're doing,

01:01:18   which is, granted, kind of pointless,

01:01:19   but that's exactly what play is like.

01:01:21   It's supposed to be a sort of a trial run

01:01:23   in a safe environment of skills that will come in handy

01:01:25   later in life in more important situations.

01:01:28   Or you become a game developer and they transfer exactly.

01:01:31   - And I would argue school is pointless.

01:01:34   Most of what you do in school is pointless,

01:01:36   but the reason you do it is that it's an educational

01:01:38   exercise to develop your brain in certain ways.

01:01:41   And games are often that same thing.

01:01:44   And even things like television shows and movies,

01:01:46   a lot of what I want my kids to learn when they watch media

01:01:49   that hopefully is constructive in some way

01:01:51   is you see interpersonal relationships.

01:01:54   Like you have a certain amount of interpersonal relationships

01:01:56   that you get to try out when you go to school,

01:01:57   when you're hanging out with your friends,

01:01:58   but you also learn from the media that you see,

01:02:01   how do people relate to each other?

01:02:03   What are the various anti-patterns of how they relate?

01:02:05   How will I be treated if I act like this?

01:02:08   A lot of fiction sort of plays out those things,

01:02:10   especially kids fiction where they show the kid

01:02:12   who's too conceited or the kid who's shy or bullying or like,

01:02:16   well, you know, very a lot of media for children eventually

01:02:21   gets into all those topics.

01:02:22   And they're just like, oh, I'm just watching a TV show.

01:02:24   But I think people don't realize how much people

01:02:26   and even reading books and stuff like that,

01:02:28   like fiction provides a way to try out activities

01:02:33   that you're not gonna actually try yourself,

01:02:34   but to see, pretend people try them out

01:02:36   and see the consequences,

01:02:37   which is why you have to keep your eye on fiction

01:02:38   because if you fed your kids the wrong kind of fiction,

01:02:41   they could definitely get the wrong kind of idea about the way the world works.

01:02:45   So you have to, that's why you have to sort of be on top of what they're looking into

01:02:48   or whatever.

01:02:49   And that's why, you know, when you're young, it's easy, but later on, they will start picking

01:02:52   things on their own, you have to sort of take an interest in what are you watching, and

01:02:56   you will have to watch a bunch of episodes of shows that you're not actually interested

01:02:59   in because they're for kids.

01:03:00   But if you don't do that, you'll have no idea what it is they're, they're learning and taking

01:03:03   away because they, you know, the same way they watch you to learn how interpersonal relationships

01:03:08   work.

01:03:09   They also learn that from fiction.

01:03:10   I think back to the number of things I learned or mislearned about human nature from television

01:03:17   and movies and books from my childhood, and it's a surprising amount, perhaps more than

01:03:21   I learned from my parents actually telling me in the traditional parenting way of, "Let

01:03:28   me tell you why you should not be a bully and why you should be nice to your sister,"

01:03:31   or whatever.

01:03:32   Well, it's funny you bring all this up, because just the other day, Erin sent me an article

01:03:36   she had found, and we'll put it in the show notes. And the title's research shows preschoolers

01:03:41   who watch Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood develop social and emotional skills. And this is a

01:03:45   study by Texas Tech University, apparently, and what they did was they gave, they had

01:03:51   preschoolers watch like a nature show for a couple of weeks or watch Daniel Tiger, which,

01:03:57   if you're not familiar, it's the spiritual successor to Mr. Rogers, which I assume is

01:04:02   relevant even to like Brits as well, but Mr. Rogers was like an institution for kids in the US.

01:04:09   Well anyway, so the key quote here is, "In the study, which will be published in an upcoming

01:04:14   issue to the Journal of Children and Media, 127 preschoolers watched 10 episodes of either

01:04:19   Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood or Nature Show over a two-week period. Children who watched Daniel

01:04:23   Tiger exhibited higher levels of empathy, self-efficacy, basically confidence in oneself

01:04:28   and social situations and the ability to recognize emotions from a better ability to recognize

01:04:33   those emotions than the kids who watch the nature show.

01:04:37   There's a kicker though, in order for the kids to benefit from watching the show, their

01:04:40   regular TV watching experience has to be accompanied by frequent parent-child conversations about

01:04:45   the media content, which is a part that I found most interesting was, yeah, the show

01:04:49   may not be a complete disaster in and of itself, but for it to really sink in and hit home,

01:04:55   It's up to Aaron and I to pay attention and talk to him as best as we can with the 20-month-old

01:05:00   about what he just saw.

01:05:02   And that's something that we've taken to heart, and although he hasn't seen Daniel

01:05:06   Tiger in the couple of days since we found this article, it's still something that

01:05:11   we plan to do in the future and something we're going to try to be better about.

01:05:15   The parenting institution of reading an article and then deciding this is how we have to parent

01:05:19   differently because the article says so.

01:05:21   Yeah, it's a fair criticism, but—

01:05:23   It's not a criticism.

01:05:24   We all do it because we're all looking for help, right?

01:05:29   It's like, does someone have some ideas that I haven't tried?

01:05:31   I'll try those.

01:05:32   We did exactly the same things.

01:05:34   And speaking of the same things about all the studies about how you shouldn't show your

01:05:38   kid any sort of video very early in life, which always made sense to me.

01:05:42   I mean, we didn't need articles to tell us that for the most part, but when your kid

01:05:46   is changing from a little squishy larva into like, that does nothing and just poops his

01:05:52   pants all the time and can barely hold its head up.

01:05:56   They have to learn how to interact with the world.

01:05:59   And if kids very, very young can be distracted by moving images, that's taking time away

01:06:05   from them learning like, "Where is the floor?

01:06:07   Where is the ceiling?

01:06:08   What are these things poking out of my body and how do I control them?"

01:06:11   And so that's why I would imagine part of the rationale behind don't show very, very

01:06:16   young kids television or movies or other things that are irresistibly attractive and yet don't

01:06:21   teach them anything about how to exist in the world because you're distracting them

01:06:26   from important developmental milestones.

01:06:28   But once kids can actually walk and talk and do stuff like that, then moving pictures are

01:06:33   just part of the same world as learning to read and learning to absorb information.

01:06:37   And speaking of discussing things with your kids, it doesn't have to be after school style.

01:06:41   Like I remember a lot of the shows I wanted my kids to watch were shows in which characters

01:06:45   were similar ages and facing similar challenges.

01:06:49   Like I know everyone hates Caillou, but I would always be like, remember that episode

01:06:52   where Caillou found his shoes and tied them himself?

01:06:54   Like you reference things that I know he's seen on TV to give him a framework and like

01:06:59   he would have to grow as the first child and you know, you both have your first child there.

01:07:03   You have to grudgingly admit that yes, I suppose it is it is reasonable for a child my age

01:07:08   to be able to do this.

01:07:09   Whereas depending on your kid, they may be like, this is an injustice.

01:07:12   I can never put on my own socks.

01:07:14   This is not a thing that happens my entire life.

01:07:16   You've been putting on my socks.

01:07:17   of a sudden you want me to put on my socks?

01:07:19   That's ridiculous.

01:07:20   And then you say, well, Caillou does it and he's your age.

01:07:22   And they're like, mm, like it's just them,

01:07:24   Caillou is just real, is there anything else in the world?

01:07:26   Right?

01:07:27   So you discuss, like discussing what you've seen,

01:07:29   but referencing what you know they've seen in a way

01:07:33   that's like, it's like shared culture with your child,

01:07:35   you know, or stories you know they've read,

01:07:37   like just like in this book, when that happened,

01:07:39   that we can apply this to your life.

01:07:40   Not that they'll listen to you and say like,

01:07:41   oh, you're totally right, dad.

01:07:42   But at least, you know, you make your point.

01:07:45   And so if you just keep doing that,

01:07:46   eventually it will sink in.

01:07:47   Any other thoughts on the screen time?

01:07:51   Well, so it sounds like none of us are in the camp of like, oh, I really

01:07:54   limited and it's really important.

01:07:56   And I think it's worth saying that, um, like, like so many other things in

01:07:59   parenting, if people decide to do that in the grand scheme of things, I don't

01:08:03   think that makes like, I don't think that's, that's harmful.

01:08:06   Like, oh, you know, we, we limit our kids to one hour of screen time a day in the

01:08:09   grand scheme of things, that's probably fine.

01:08:11   Like everyone does has something that they have a hang up about.

01:08:16   Everyone thinks the correct balance is a different balance.

01:08:19   Obviously, you can go too far by demonizing it and making it a treat or whatever.

01:08:22   But bottom line is in the world we live in, unless you are Amish

01:08:26   and live away from everyone else and don't have electricity,

01:08:28   there's nothing you can do to stop your kids from.

01:08:31   Learning to learning to use screens, wanting to use screens,

01:08:36   they're going to be forced to use them in most schools, even public schools

01:08:38   have integration with like Google Docs and stuff.

01:08:41   They're going to use computers.

01:08:43   They're going to use smartphones.

01:08:45   They're going to want a smartphone.

01:08:46   They're going to get a smartphone eventually when they're adults.

01:08:48   Like there's nothing you can do to stop them from it's like trying to stop your kid from learning how the wheel works.

01:08:55   Like you can't do it like it's going to happen.

01:08:57   So I don't much mind people who have particular policies about how long any activity should be doing.

01:09:04   How long should we spend on homework every night?

01:09:07   No screens after 8 p.m.

01:09:10   no bringing your cell phone into your bedroom,

01:09:13   one hour using screen time as a reward,

01:09:16   there are many things you could do to,

01:09:18   any activity to demonize it or to make it the forbidden fruit

01:09:21   or like, and it all really depends on your kid.

01:09:24   Like my parents never let us have soda.

01:09:25   You would think, ah, they hid soda from you.

01:09:27   When you become an adult, you'd be a soda fiend.

01:09:29   Nope, don't like it, don't have it, right?

01:09:31   Don't have any soda in my house.

01:09:32   But a different kid being raised in exactly the same way

01:09:36   that I was could have come out of that and say,

01:09:37   oh my God, as soon as I get to live on my own,

01:09:39   I'm just gonna break soda all day same exact parenting different kid so as with everything in parenting. There's only a series of

01:09:46   Differently wrong answer is there's no right answer

01:09:49   You sure you don't have like

01:09:52   37 or so tiny cans of sprite in your house. I think I still do have 37. You know why I don't drink them

01:09:58   I have to check up there still down on the basement, but believe me

01:10:02   I if I wanted them they would be gone like the Samoas were gone because those I do want

01:10:07   Alright, thanks to our three sponsors this week, Casper, Harry's, and Amazon Prime

01:10:14   Music, and we will see you next week.

01:10:16   [MUSIC]

01:10:26   Oh it was accidental.

01:10:28   John didn't do any research.

01:10:31   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:10:34   Cause it was accidental.

01:10:36   It was accidental.

01:10:39   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

01:10:44   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:10:50   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

01:10:58   N-T-Marco-Armin, S-I-R-A-C, U-S-A-S-C-R-A-C-U-S-A,

01:11:06   It's accidental.

01:11:07   It's accidental.

01:11:09   They didn't mean to.

01:11:12   Accidental.

01:11:13   Accidental.

01:11:14   Tech podcast so long.

01:11:19   not caramel delights like some of us better firmly in the small camp.

01:11:23   See the small is they're, they're good, but there's just,

01:11:26   I think there's a little bit too much coconut, too much coconut.

01:11:29   It's all about the coconut.

01:11:30   The smallest have darker chocolate and the coconut is roasted a little bit

01:11:33   darker too. And they're actually round and not octagon.

01:11:36   I don't remember what these are. I've certainly heard of them,

01:11:38   but I know I don't like dark chocolate terribly much.

01:11:41   I don't like coconut terribly, terribly much. And I don't like caramel.

01:11:43   Terribly. This is not the, this is not the cookie for you. No, definitely not.

01:11:46   These are girl scout cookies by the way. Oh yes. That's right.

01:11:49   People who are not in America, Girl Scouts is a--

01:11:52   how would you describe Girl Scouts?

01:11:54   It's a thing little girls go to to learn stuff.

01:11:57   That sounds dismissive, but it's actually a reasonable summary.

01:12:02   Yeah.

01:12:02   Anyway, they sell cookies to raise money

01:12:04   for their Girl Scouting.

01:12:06   And those cookies are made by different manufacturers.

01:12:09   And the cookies that look almost the same

01:12:12   have different names and are made

01:12:14   by different makers in different parts of the country.

01:12:17   And yeah, you would think it's like,

01:12:21   oh whatever, Girl's Cookies you grew up with,

01:12:23   those are the ones that you'll love,

01:12:24   but I don't think that's entirely the case.

01:12:26   I think you just have to A/B test

01:12:28   every single one of the cookies

01:12:29   and see which version you like,

01:12:31   'cause it's not a clear victory

01:12:32   for either one of the two manufacturers.

01:12:35   But Simo is definitely.

01:12:36   - Everyone kind of obsesses over them,

01:12:38   but it's more of an artificial scarcity situation

01:12:41   where you can only buy them certain times a year.

01:12:44   And the reality is almost all of them are delicious

01:12:47   because they're really sugary, unhealthy cookies.

01:12:50   So of course they're gonna be delicious.

01:12:52   People obsess over certain flavors.

01:12:53   I know if I had to guess,

01:12:56   the most popular ones are probably Thin Mints

01:12:58   followed by Samoas and followed by those--

01:13:01   - What are the peanut butter ones?

01:13:03   - Is that the Tagalongs?

01:13:04   - Tagalongs, I think, yeah.

01:13:05   They may have different names.

01:13:07   - Those are very good too, but--

01:13:09   - There's not much scarcity in my house, I can tell you.

01:13:11   The artificial scarcity is like,

01:13:12   oh, they're only sold certain times of the year,

01:13:13   but if you buy a billion boxes, they never run out.

01:13:17   - So according to Wikipedia,

01:13:18   it's Thin Mints at 25% of the sales.

01:13:21   - Wow. - Caramel Delights,

01:13:23   I'm sorry, Samoas, my bad, same thing, just different name.

01:13:26   Samoas are 19%, Dosey-Dose,

01:13:29   which are peanut butter sandwiches are 16%,

01:13:32   and peanut butter patties, which are Tagalongs, are 13%.

01:13:35   - Which are the ones that is the cookie

01:13:38   and the peanut butter with chocolate wrapped around it?

01:13:40   - That's Tagalongs. - Yeah, those are good.

01:13:42   Tagalongs, crispy vanilla cookies layered with peanut butter and covered with a chocolatey

01:13:47   coating.

01:13:48   Those cold are amazing.

01:13:50   My particular favorite is the one that nobody ever buys or likes, which is the shortbread

01:13:54   cookies which are trefoils.

01:13:57   I like those.

01:13:58   Yeah, those are good.

01:13:59   I love those.

01:14:00   Although I think all of them, like, I don't know, am I a cookie snob now?

01:14:05   I think all of them still basically taste like prepackaged cookies.

01:14:09   They do.

01:14:10   The only ones that I think come close to being elevated to the level of something you might

01:14:14   buy like a handmade thing in a bakery are the Samoas.

01:14:17   And even those still more or less taste like just manufactured cookies.

01:14:21   In my old age, I get even more expensive tastes.

01:14:24   And now if it's not like handmade in a bakery, I kind of like, well, I think in the sense

01:14:34   of do I want to spend my calories on this cookie or do I want to spend it on the most

01:14:39   expensive ice cream I can possibly buy.

01:14:41   And I usually get the ice cream.

01:14:44   I mean, those incredible wasteful,

01:14:46   wasteful gelato things in the hard plastic containers.

01:14:49   Who came up with that idea?

01:14:51   I feel terrible every time I buy one of those.

01:14:53   Terrible because they cost like six bucks.

01:14:55   Terrible because they come with a hard plastic shell

01:14:57   that I try to find some reason to use in the house.

01:14:59   - Yeah, but I don't put those in the dishwasher.

01:15:01   - Yeah.

01:15:02   - Learn that.

01:15:02   - You can use them to, I guess, I don't know,

01:15:05   that maybe the kids will suffocate on them.

01:15:07   I was like, you can put kids' toys in them or something,

01:15:08   or the jar itself could be a kid's toy,

01:15:10   but kids can probably suffocate on them

01:15:11   and that would be bad.

01:15:13   - Yeah, we have a few of them around the house

01:15:15   that we've washed out and just used for containers,

01:15:17   but the problem is it's kind of like,

01:15:19   you know those, when you order Thai food

01:15:20   and you get four or five of those black, circular containers

01:15:25   with the translucent white lids?

01:15:27   For a while, we would wash those out and save them

01:15:31   and reuse them for things, but the problem is

01:15:33   the rate at which we would order Thai food

01:15:35   dramatically outpaced the rate at which

01:15:37   we could find use for these.

01:15:38   We have a similar problem with the Italian DiGelato containers.

01:15:41   We probably empty roughly one or two of those a week, so there's basically no way we can

01:15:47   find enough uses for them around the house.

01:15:50   I seriously don't buy that because of the container.

01:15:53   Like the container is literally stopping me from buying that product more.

01:15:57   That and a couple of their flavors I feel like could be improved.

01:16:00   But I go to the store and I'm like, "I'm kind of in the mood for that, but I don't want

01:16:03   that container."

01:16:04   It just feels wasteful.

01:16:05   Speaking of buying takeout, like when I get food from one of the local Chinese food takeout

01:16:09   places and they give you like a giant styrofoam container from the 80s, I'm like, I didn't

01:16:13   even know they still made these.

01:16:14   Just like a big white giant thing of styrofoam.

01:16:17   This is not good for the environment.

01:16:19   Maybe it's better now.

01:16:20   Maybe it's all made from like corn starch and stuff and it's not like the bad styrofoam

01:16:22   from when we were kids, but it just feels wasteful.

01:16:25   Like, yeah, you know, that's if the people from Talliente are listening, make more environmentally

01:16:31   friendly containers and you will sell more of your incredibly overpriced ice cream to

01:16:35   Wait, what is the name of this ice cream?

01:16:38   - It's Talenti.

01:16:38   - How do you spell that?

01:16:39   - T-A-L-E-N-T-I.

01:16:41   - Okay.

01:16:42   - So I'm actually like making an environmental statement

01:16:45   by buying Ben & Jerry's most of the time for myself.

01:16:47   'Cause Tiff is mostly Talenti.

01:16:49   I'm mostly Ben & Jerry's.

01:16:51   - You would, you would.

01:16:53   - Oh, Ben & Jerry's has the dioxins, right?

01:16:56   - Ben & Jerry's, you know the problem is like,

01:16:57   I am happy to try other ice creams,

01:17:00   but Ben & Jerry's is, I just always go back to that,

01:17:04   it is just so much better tasting to me

01:17:06   than almost everything else.

01:17:07   And not just any one particular flavor,

01:17:09   just like their base ice cream

01:17:11   is better tasting than most of them.

01:17:12   - Yeah, whatever chemical they're putting in

01:17:14   is addicting you.

01:17:16   I'm not gonna have a particular brand long as late,

01:17:21   but I think Haagen-Dazs is probably,

01:17:24   I think I'm probably more into Haagen-Dazs

01:17:25   than most people, and it's specific flavors.

01:17:28   But Haagen-Dazs, I feel like,

01:17:29   if you said, "Who has the best vanilla?"

01:17:31   If you just had plain vanilla ice cream,

01:17:33   I think Häagen-Dazs has the best vanilla.

01:17:34   - Yeah, I'd go with you on that.

01:17:36   - And so, vanilla Swiss almond,

01:17:38   which is basically Häagen-Dazs vanilla

01:17:40   with little chocolate-covered almonds,

01:17:41   is one of my favorite things ever.

01:17:42   But Ben & Jerry's New York Super Fudge Chunk,

01:17:45   Häagen-Dazs has no flavor that competes with that.

01:17:47   So I'm equal opportunity overpriced ice cream eater.

01:17:52   - So I have a controversial opinion about this.

01:17:54   I know you're surprised.

01:17:56   Dreyer's slow-churned, low-fat vanilla ice cream

01:18:01   is the best vanilla I've found.

01:18:02   And I should say that, what is it, Blue Bell?

01:18:06   I think it's Blue Bell ice cream recently arrived

01:18:09   in Virginia, which I think started somewhere south of here.

01:18:12   And it was one of those things like, well, Cheerwine,

01:18:16   which doesn't mean anything to you,

01:18:17   but Chick-fil-A is a better example.

01:18:21   So only in the south, crawling northwards,

01:18:24   and every, or Sonic is another great example.

01:18:26   And everyone I knew had like known someone

01:18:31   that had had Blue Bell and swore that it was the best ice cream in the entire world.

01:18:37   I've had a few flavors of Blue Bell ice cream, and I actually don't find it to be particularly

01:18:44   tasty. The Dreyer Slow Churn vanilla, as stupid as that sounds, I mean, hey, I love Diet Coke,

01:18:50   so I know everyone's surprised. Love that stuff. I think my only ice cream snobbery is,

01:18:55   and it only extends so far, is that I don't like ice creams that have things in them other than

01:19:00   ice cream. And I know Ben and Jerry's falls into that category. Like it doesn't, you know,

01:19:04   it should just be like the old Breyers commercial said, and I really do like Breyers milk, cream,

01:19:09   sugar, there should know should be no guar gum, there should be no like other things. And I know,

01:19:13   I know Ben and Jerry's has those. Like it's another reason I give a little bit of a nod

01:19:17   to Haagen Dazs and Haagen Dazs has them to some degree as well. But a lot of the non super premium

01:19:22   brands have all sorts of crazy ass fillers in them. And I can't stand them. No, I mean, like,

01:19:27   Haagen-Dazs is really good for keeping the ingredient count down, but usually only for

01:19:32   their basic flavors. Once you have fillings and other objects in the ice cream, like almonds

01:19:38   and stuff, or the flavors get more complicated, that ingredient list climbs pretty fast.

01:19:44   To follow up briefly on Casey's Blue Bell thing, I have not tried Blue Bell, but I have

01:19:50   I have tried Jenny's, which is, I believe,

01:19:52   the Ohio version, it's J-E-N-I, apostrophe S.

01:19:56   It's also like a boutique ice cream maker.

01:19:59   And you can actually order them to be shipped to you

01:20:01   in a frozen box.

01:20:03   And I had them originally in a store in Ohio,

01:20:06   when I was visiting there a few years back.

01:20:10   And the stores are just amazing.

01:20:12   Their flavors, though, are really weird.

01:20:15   And so we ordered them, like, one time,

01:20:16   for something special, I think it was

01:20:18   like Valentine's Day a couple years ago,

01:20:19   We ordered some as a treat ourselves

01:20:21   and to try to bring back the experience

01:20:23   of going to the stores.

01:20:24   And when you order little pints of premium ice cream

01:20:28   to be shipped to you in a truck, it gets pretty expensive.

01:20:32   It ended up being something like eight or $10 a pint.

01:20:36   Some of the flavors were great,

01:20:39   some of them were just kind of weird,

01:20:41   so it was just like it wasn't really worth it.

01:20:43   If you can go to a Jenny's store, I recommend it,

01:20:46   but I would not recommend ordering fancy ice cream

01:20:48   internet because it's just not worth it. So dryers as I I don't not that familiar

01:20:54   with that name but looking at the packaging I'm like that's one of the

01:20:56   ones that adds filler I can't find the ingredients list for your particular

01:20:59   slow churn thing but dryers, grand vanilla bean, milk cream sugar skim milk

01:21:04   looking good so far, corn syrup, cellulose gum, mono and diglycerides, not good, guar

01:21:10   gum, dextrose like lots of I don't need all that crap you can you can make good

01:21:15   ice cream with just milk cream and sugar and vanilla bean.

01:21:17   And like I said, like Marco said, Benjari does it, too.

01:21:21   I know they all do it.

01:21:22   And as soon as you start adding like filling, it's like, oh,

01:21:23   there's Heath bars in here.

01:21:24   Heath bars are just full of crap, like obviously.

01:21:26   And then it goes in the ingredients list because guess what?

01:21:28   There's Heath bars in there.

01:21:29   Even just the sugar always has some weird stuff in it.

01:21:31   But I try to I try to limit that.

01:21:34   That's why I've always been a Breyers fan, Breyers for the most part,

01:21:37   especially if you don't do like extra creamy or light or any other type

01:21:42   thing where they need to add fillers to try to make the texture back to normal.

01:21:45   If you just buy plain old full fat ice cream or make it yourself, we have an ice cream

01:21:49   machine to make it occasionally. Like seriously, you just need milk, cream, and sugar and it makes

01:21:55   ice cream and is really good and vanilla beans. So there's no reason for anything else unless you

01:21:58   start taking stuff out or want to make it seem creamier than it actually is.

01:22:03   This is from a grocery store. This is for my slow turn vanilla bean,

01:22:07   Nonfat milk, cream sugar, corn syrup, and I think that at this point I'm out.

01:22:11   That's all it takes? This is corn syrup, is that right?

01:22:13   Well, I mean, you know, it's just sugar, but you can keep going.

01:22:16   It's the other fillers that I think are more objectionable.

01:22:19   Corn syrup, whey protein, buttermilk, molasses, acacia gum, carob bean gum, guar gum,

01:22:27   natural flavors, ground vanilla beans, and... whoa.

01:22:30   Carrageenan?

01:22:32   Yeah, that's the red stuff they squeeze out of red bugs.

01:22:36   Oh, weird. That's kind of gross. Anyway, that's the entire ingredient list. So does

01:22:41   that—

01:22:42   Real-time follow-up. Carrageenan is from edible red seaweed, not from red bugs. There's

01:22:47   a different thing that comes from red bugs.

01:22:49   Important research on ATP.

01:22:50   Yeah, that's too much. Try Breyers Vanilla and just see what you're missing.

01:22:54   I'm sure it's good. And I'm not saying that this is the best ever, but this is like

01:22:58   my go-to ice cream, partially because it is slightly lower fat.

01:23:01   No, but you could change your go-to ice cream.

01:23:04   I could. I could. You could start drinking Sprite, you know.

01:23:07   I mean, Saturn used to be your go-to car, right?

01:23:10   Oh, those were the days.

01:23:11   Until the wheel fell off.

01:23:13   Yeah, it was a great car until then.

01:23:14   Great stereos, too.

01:23:15   [BEEP]