173: A Series of Heartbreaking Rejections


00:00:00   Boy, I put my photos into Google Photos.

00:00:03   You know why I finally ended up doing it?

00:00:05   Because the thing I just tweeted about my controller, my PlayStation controller with

00:00:09   the worn out thing on the bottom, I was trying to find the old picture, like the original

00:00:13   one, because I wanted to do the tweet, like here's the new one, here's the old one, and

00:00:16   I could not find that picture.

00:00:17   I'm scrolling through my photos library, I just like, I could not find it.

00:00:21   I couldn't even narrow it down to like, I was trying to look at the release date of

00:00:24   Destiny but I didn't get it on the release date, I'm scrolling and I know it's like one

00:00:27   picture, I could not find it, so I'm like...

00:00:29   So to find one picture you upload your entire photo collection to Google Photos and that was easier?

00:00:33   Yes, because how else are you gonna find the one picture if I knew which photo to upload?

00:00:37   Like I have to upload the whole thing. I wanted to try it anyway. This just pushed me over the edge. That's amazing

00:00:41   So as is uploading literally 70,000 photos

00:00:44   I'm typing in searches like as you can search while it's uploading

00:00:48   Trying to think of searches that will find this so I type in controller. No, no matches PS4

00:00:54   No matches black plastic matches, but none of the ones I wanted then I was thinking maybe it's not in my photo library

00:01:01   Maybe it's on some other trapped in some iOS device

00:01:03   So I start putting things up that I think was actually trapped in my phone

00:01:05   So now I'm uploading from my phone like photos that it because again Tina has the library not me, right?

00:01:11   So it's her photo thing. So uploading from Google Photos

00:01:14   From her Mac is pushing those pictures up, but it's not pushing any of the pictures up from my phone

00:01:19   So now I'm trying to push up from my phone into the thing and I just type control into the search and you know

00:01:23   found two pictures of GameCube controllers and a picture of my brother getting a PlayStation

00:01:29   2 in 2004.

00:01:30   Seriously, it's magic.

00:01:32   It is, but it still didn't find the damn picture.

00:01:34   I mean, I found it myself eventually, because I figured out that I had tweeted it, and I

00:01:37   found the tweet based on searching the tweet.

00:01:40   So all that, and you still didn't actually find the photo with three –

00:01:44   It found three controllers.

00:01:45   The problem is, I don't know if that picture has been pushed up – the whole time we've

00:01:48   been recording my phone has been in theory pushing photos up and I'm guessing

00:01:53   that's where it is in these 7,000 photos that are on my phone. But anyway it did

00:01:57   find pictures of controllers so I have some hope now. We should do a little bit

00:02:02   of John's favorite thing in the world we should do some follow-up and there's some

00:02:05   very very sad follow-up there's not going to be a 5k monitor at WWDC. Well we

00:02:10   don't know but that's the rumor. Was there was there ever going to be the 5k

00:02:14   monitor? Was that really a strong thing?

00:02:16   We did a whole show last week all about all the hardware that we were excited for, and

00:02:22   then like immediately after that all the rumor sites said, you know, you're looking for five

00:02:26   game monitors with GPUs? Forget it. You're looking for new MacBooks? Those might not

00:02:29   even be there. No hardware, it's going to be all about software, don't get your hopes

00:02:33   up. And of course no one even bothered to refute the idea that they're going to make

00:02:35   a new Mac Pro because no one cares about that. Enough to even put on the rumor site, yeah,

00:02:38   there's not going to be any of those either. So yesterday I was all hopeful, and now the

00:02:43   prevalent rumors are all the hardware you hope for

00:02:46   may still come, but not at WWDC.

00:02:49   - That's not a huge surprise.

00:02:50   I mean, the no MacBook Pros is a little bit surprising,

00:02:53   but I would expect the display to come

00:02:55   with the next update to the Mac Pro.

00:02:57   And whether that's the same time as the MacBook Pro or not,

00:03:00   who knows, but it does seem like it's probably going to be

00:03:03   a high-end, mostly pro product for a while.

00:03:07   I don't think a lot of people who are like mid-range buyers

00:03:11   who have like a 13-inch MacBook Pro

00:03:13   are going to be buying the very first Apple 5K display.

00:03:15   It's probably going to be expensive.

00:03:17   It's probably going to be this big special thing

00:03:20   that's gonna require the brand new computers.

00:03:22   I wouldn't expect this to be

00:03:24   just an average consumer release.

00:03:25   I would expect this to wait for the Mac Pro,

00:03:27   but I could be wrong.

00:03:28   - See, I would think the opposite.

00:03:29   I would think that the whole purpose of this monitor

00:03:32   is so people who buy MacBook Pros

00:03:34   can have a really big screen

00:03:35   when they sit down at their desks,

00:03:37   and that the whole point of this entire product is

00:03:39   that's why it's got a GPU inside.

00:03:40   So even our lowly MacBooks that don't actually have a GPU that can drive it, no problem.

00:03:45   The GPU that's inside the screen is enough to drive it.

00:03:47   You're not going to play games on it or anything, but it's just, it's enough to actually drive

00:03:51   that many pixels.

00:03:52   So now look at all these great laptops.

00:03:53   They're great laptops on the go.

00:03:55   And sit down at your desk and you have essentially a 5K iMac style screen in front of you.

00:04:00   And they won't even mention the Mac Pro because who the hell cares about the Mac Pro?

00:04:03   >> If this was like a regular update, like when they went from 27 inch LED to 27 inch

00:04:09   Thunderbolt display. That was like, okay, we already know how to make screens this size.

00:04:12   We've been making them for a long, for a few years at that point, and before that we made

00:04:16   30-inch screens for even more years. It was like, this was no big deal. It's like, mostly

00:04:20   existing technology put together in a new way. In this case, this is a 5K screen. This

00:04:24   is still a very high-end product. There still are very few 5K screens in the market. So

00:04:28   you got to figure out, this is going to be expensive. It's probably not going to be $1,000.

00:04:32   It's probably going to be a little more. And even if it was $1,000, that's still, compared

00:04:37   to other monitors that people would have

00:04:39   to put it on desk, but that's still

00:04:41   a pretty expensive monitor.

00:04:42   So I would expect this to be a high-end thing at first.

00:04:47   And then maybe in a few years, when they update it next

00:04:49   to add whatever new screen construction technique

00:04:53   they've developed by then, then it'll be more consumer-y.

00:04:55   But I wouldn't expect version one to be.

00:04:58   - Yeah, I agree with that.

00:05:00   However, I do think that there is some

00:05:02   very, very big demand for this.

00:05:04   Say, for example, you are an iOS developer and say, just for the sake of discussion,

00:05:10   you have an actual job and you go to an office and that office issues you a 15-inch MacBook

00:05:17   Pro, but they issue you two Lenovo displays that are of unremarkable resolution.

00:05:24   And so every time you're running the iOS simulator, you're running it at like half size, even

00:05:30   for like an iPhone 6 simulator.

00:05:33   So that can cause problems such as you're doing something with a UITableView and you

00:05:39   don't want it to look like a UITableView, you don't want any separators between all

00:05:43   the UITableView cells, and when you're just looking at the simulator stationary, the divider

00:05:50   lines, the separator lines between each cell disappear because it's at half zoom.

00:05:55   And then suddenly you go and you start playing around with your UITableView and suddenly

00:05:59   these magical lines appear from nothingness and it's very frickin' annoying because you

00:06:04   wish you had noticed it in the first place.

00:06:07   Not a very big deal, but still annoying.

00:06:09   And then you come home to your beautiful 5K display and think to yourself, "Wow, wouldn't

00:06:13   it be nice to have something like this at work so I didn't have to run the simulator

00:06:16   at half height?"

00:06:17   I mean, just hypothetically anyway.

00:06:19   I would kill for a Thunderbolt Retina display.

00:06:23   I would kill both of you for a Thunderbolt Retina display at work.

00:06:27   - We are honored.

00:06:28   - Yeah, I know you are.

00:06:30   I don't think work would pay for it

00:06:32   because I agree with you.

00:06:33   It'll probably be very expensive,

00:06:35   but man, would that be awesome.

00:06:38   It's all right though.

00:06:39   Oh, and before the entire internet writes me,

00:06:41   I have the two displays and I have a standing desk,

00:06:46   so I run my MacBook Pro in clamshell mode.

00:06:49   Yes, I know you don't think that's a good idea.

00:06:51   Yes, I'm aware that there's potential heat problems.

00:06:54   Yes, I know the simulator would be able to run full height.

00:06:57   If I did use the onboard display,

00:06:59   I understand all those things.

00:07:00   I am my own man and I do what I wanna do.

00:07:03   All right, which one of you decided

00:07:05   you wanted to talk about the iPhone SE?

00:07:06   - You know, it's all like me to add follow up to the show.

00:07:10   - Yeah, it was because a lot of people sent us this

00:07:13   follow up, last week we talked about the upcoming iPhone

00:07:18   and how it might look very similar to the 6 and 6S

00:07:21   and if that was a big deal and one of the ending points

00:07:25   was like this is their third shot at the same form factor

00:07:27   and if they do a really good job,

00:07:28   like the second iterations of phones usually are really good

00:07:31   and a third one could be even better.

00:07:33   And we talked about all the reasons that might be.

00:07:34   And a lot of people said, hey, the iPhone SE

00:07:36   is basically the third shot at the same form factor,

00:07:38   albeit separated in time by, you know,

00:07:41   by quite a few other models in between,

00:07:43   but it really is the third shot

00:07:45   at that five style form factor.

00:07:46   Now, I don't think the SE changed that much about the case.

00:07:51   Like it's not like the 6 and 6S of being like less bendy

00:07:53   and less slippery to trying to do minute changes

00:07:57   you might not even notice,

00:07:58   but still improving on the 6.

00:08:01   Does the SE improve on the 5S case in any way

00:08:04   other than possibly being cheaper to manufacture

00:08:06   because they didn't have the shiny chamfered edge around it?

00:08:11   - Oh gosh, yeah, I don't remember.

00:08:13   - I think that's the only thing I can think of

00:08:15   and I guess different colors.

00:08:16   But anyway, everyone loves the iPhone SE.

00:08:17   I don't know if it's because it's a third shot

00:08:19   of the same form factor,

00:08:20   but it is a precedent for doing a phone

00:08:24   that they had two models experience with

00:08:25   and doing it again and they can do it even better.

00:08:28   - All right, and yet another instance

00:08:32   of lowercase M, capital O-S, Mac OS.

00:08:37   - That's what it's called.

00:08:38   - Yeah, that's exactly how you pronounce it.

00:08:39   - Lowercase M-ack, mm-ack OS.

00:08:42   - Yeah, that's how you pronounce it, kids.

00:08:44   It had been seen in the wild,

00:08:45   but apparently has been killed and brought back to the farm.

00:08:50   - Well, I think I'd seen it before with a capital M

00:08:54   in some like Apple thing that just looked like

00:08:57   they forgot the space or not.

00:08:58   It doesn't even make sense that they forgot.

00:08:59   But anyway, it has been seen before an Apple stuff

00:09:01   with a capital M and I think quickly removed.

00:09:04   As we're recording this right now,

00:09:05   where you click on the URL that we're pasting

00:09:07   to the chat room, you would see an official Apple page

00:09:10   that lists--

00:09:11   - You will not, it's already been changed.

00:09:14   I checked it like five minutes before the show started.

00:09:17   Oh well.

00:09:18   - Is there a spy in our document?

00:09:20   - No, this is a nine to five Mac.

00:09:23   It was tweeted all over the place.

00:09:24   This is not a secret URL that we just figured out.

00:09:26   Like I guess, yeah, they're on top of it.

00:09:28   I purposely checked just before we connected

00:09:30   the Skype call.

00:09:31   I wonder if they've changed it.

00:09:32   Like, nope, still there.

00:09:33   And I copied and pasted it right out of that document

00:09:35   into the notes mere moments ago.

00:09:36   But apparently the little elves are really fast.

00:09:39   Anyway, that's probably a fairly telling slip-up.

00:09:44   Because when you have the list of OS's all in order

00:09:46   like that, you know, iOS, Mac OS, TV OS, and watch OS,

00:09:50   they all look like the same when you write them like that.

00:09:51   And I don't know, if it turns out that they don't rename it

00:09:54   like this, this will be a weird series of slip-ups.

00:09:57   - Yeah, I think at this point it's over.

00:10:00   That's the name, period.

00:10:02   If you don't like it, sorry.

00:10:03   I really hated the name MacBook when, like,

00:10:05   the very first MacBook and MacBook Pro,

00:10:07   I really hated the name MacBook.

00:10:09   The PowerBook was such a better name.

00:10:11   - Still is a better name.

00:10:12   And MacBook still is a terrible name.

00:10:14   - I agree.

00:10:15   But I got used to it and now I don't care.

00:10:17   So that's just gonna happen.

00:10:18   If you hate lowercase Mac OS, okay.

00:10:21   It's gonna suck for a little while

00:10:23   and then you're gonna move on and life will go on.

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00:11:36   So I'm happy to report that Apple apparently knew that I had not spent the time to figure

00:11:47   out my WWDC predictions yet, and has decided to drop some very interesting news and thus

00:11:55   take away most of the time that we're going to be able to talk about DubDub predictions,

00:11:59   and instead we'll just have to talk about some App Store changes.

00:12:03   So thank you people at Apple for timing it appropriately because I haven't thought

00:12:07   about my dub-dub predictions yet and you can hear me fumble about it in probably about

00:12:10   an hour and a half.

00:12:12   But then Marco had to go and ruin it by having an entire podcast about this earlier today,

00:12:16   so he's all got all his thoughts out of his system already about this.

00:12:19   Oh yeah, because all my thoughts in this totally fit in 30 minutes.

00:12:22   Well, that's your own stupid fault for having a short podcast.

00:12:24   Well, I saved minutes 31 through 90 for you guys.

00:12:28   Oh, okay.

00:12:29   All right.

00:12:30   Delightful.

00:12:31   about is Phil Schiller went to, I think it was The Verge

00:12:35   that broke the news, is that correct?

00:12:36   - It was a whole bunch of sites actually.

00:12:37   - I saw it on the loop first actually.

00:12:39   - Yeah. - Oh okay.

00:12:40   - In my Twitter feed, which is now the substitute RSS,

00:12:42   the loop is the first one that tweeted about it.

00:12:44   Then I think I saw The Verge next

00:12:45   or then maybe Gruber after that.

00:12:47   - Yeah, Loop, Verge, Gruber, Telegraph had one.

00:12:50   I think that was it.

00:12:51   That was all the ones I saw.

00:12:53   - Although it's interesting,

00:12:55   who got this story and who didn't?

00:12:57   I don't know how they made those decisions,

00:12:58   but you could probably read something

00:13:00   into the favorability of various outlets

00:13:02   based on who got this.

00:13:04   - Yeah, so basically the story is

00:13:07   that there are some substantial changes

00:13:09   to the App Store that are happening now.

00:13:11   So the first one I think is a gimme.

00:13:14   The first one is these really suspiciously fast

00:13:17   app review times that we've seen the last few weeks.

00:13:20   This is not just a fluke, it is not an accident,

00:13:22   and it is apparently not temporary.

00:13:24   Apple has officially acknowledged

00:13:26   that these things are real, that yes, indeed,

00:13:28   The app review is much faster.

00:13:30   They have made some changes to allow it to be faster

00:13:34   and to probably stay faster, and that is really good,

00:13:37   'cause before it was like, well, this could be an accident

00:13:39   that it just happens to be really fast,

00:13:41   but if they don't mention it ever,

00:13:44   then it could probably go back at any time,

00:13:45   but now that they've mentioned it in public,

00:13:47   they've bragged about how good this is,

00:13:49   it is way more likely, I think, to stay this way,

00:13:53   or for this to be the new target standard

00:13:55   rather than just a fluke.

00:13:58   I wonder if it'll get a WWDC slide now, maybe like they've,

00:14:01   and by the way, before we even continue with these things,

00:14:03   the very fact that everything we're gonna talk about

00:14:05   in these App Store changes is being announced now,

00:14:08   like days before WWDC, but presumably, you know,

00:14:12   not saving for WWDC, although there's a lot of speculation

00:14:15   about why that might be the, of course, the party line is,

00:14:17   "We have so much good stuff to tell you about at WWDC,

00:14:19   "this just wouldn't fit."

00:14:20   So here, a couple days early, here's this news,

00:14:23   and the more pessimistic take is there is enough

00:14:26   in this announcement to cause discussion, consternation,

00:14:30   and worry among developers,

00:14:32   in addition to excitement or whatever,

00:14:34   that if this was in the keynote,

00:14:35   this is all people will be talking about afterwards,

00:14:37   and Apple wants people to come out of the keynote

00:14:40   not talking about App Store pricing,

00:14:42   but instead talking about insert thing

00:14:44   that they're going to announce.

00:14:46   - Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few different takes

00:14:50   on this that are plausible.

00:14:52   Certainly, yeah, the pessimistic take of,

00:14:54   "Well, developers are gonna hate these changes."

00:14:56   I don't think that was it, honestly,

00:14:58   because I think most of these changes are good.

00:15:00   - Well, not hate them,

00:15:01   but that they will be talking about them,

00:15:03   they'll be top of mind for developers.

00:15:04   It goes towards WWEC being,

00:15:07   "Yeah, it's a developers' conference,

00:15:08   "but money's key notice for the public."

00:15:10   And they didn't want developer-oriented news

00:15:14   dominating their let's talk to the public one time a year

00:15:17   that's not a special event thing.

00:15:19   - Right, well, so that's the thing, too.

00:15:20   I think we have to realize,

00:15:22   yeah, there are 5,000 developers who watch that keynote

00:15:26   in that room, and then there's another, you know,

00:15:29   another handful of thousands of developers, who knows,

00:15:33   probably another like 10 to 50,000 developers

00:15:36   who are watching that keynote live streamed

00:15:38   to various places.

00:15:40   And then there's also like thousands and thousands

00:15:42   and thousands of people who just watch the keynote

00:15:44   'cause they're Apple fans or they're Apple customers

00:15:47   or they're press or whatever.

00:15:48   And then whatever is announced in the keynote,

00:15:50   that gets reported on mainstream news,

00:15:52   it gets reported all over the web,

00:15:54   it gets reported on TV, on like CNN and stuff.

00:15:56   This is a mass media event that happens to be

00:16:00   the beginning of a developer conference.

00:16:02   So the focus of whatever is in that main keynote

00:16:05   is going to be more mainstream

00:16:08   than just talking to developers.

00:16:10   That's why, honestly, it was kind of surprising

00:16:14   that Swift was unveiled in the keynote

00:16:16   'cause it was so technical,

00:16:18   even though it was barely unveiled, but it was.

00:16:20   But generally, you don't see source code

00:16:23   in the main keynote.

00:16:26   You don't hear about a lot of low-level changes.

00:16:28   You'll hear about some, maybe,

00:16:30   or it'll be one of those word cloud slides

00:16:33   where there's a whole bunch of little words on the slide

00:16:35   and everyone rushes to take a picture of it

00:16:37   'cause like, "Oh, wait, there's a whole bunch

00:16:38   "of stuff buried in there,"

00:16:39   and then they just kinda move on.

00:16:40   I tell you in more detail later,

00:16:41   after the public has gone away

00:16:42   and they tell you in a session.

00:16:44   So that keynote is mostly a consumer event.

00:16:50   it is barely a developer keynote.

00:16:53   And so it could be that this stuff

00:16:55   is really mostly only relevant to developers,

00:16:57   and so the stuff that they are leaving in the keynote

00:17:01   is just more, you know, this is Apple's summer announcements

00:17:04   and getting people ready for the big stuff

00:17:07   that's happening in the fall.

00:17:08   So, you know, just like how last year

00:17:10   they spent so much time on Apple Music,

00:17:13   and developers could do nothing with that.

00:17:16   - That turns out neither could the public.

00:17:18   (laughing)

00:17:20   - Right, but like, you know, it's like,

00:17:21   this is mostly a consumer event,

00:17:23   and so, you know, having some developer stuff

00:17:26   that's of, you know, possibly large importance

00:17:29   happen outside that main keynote is totally understandable.

00:17:33   - Yeah, so anyway, the App Store review times

00:17:34   may or may not get a slide.

00:17:35   If they did, I mean, you can do it with the one brief slide,

00:17:37   as we talked about earlier in the week.

00:17:39   Review times are down, isn't Phil Schiller great?

00:17:41   Everybody loves it, and the answer to the question

00:17:44   of, we discussed this a couple weeks ago,

00:17:46   if things are actually faster, how might they do this?

00:17:49   We talked about many possibilities that they could change the rules that govern how they

00:17:53   do things, so they can have better automated tools.

00:17:56   And there were some rumors of management changes.

00:17:57   I think there was a couple stories about that on the web earlier.

00:18:01   The answer from Phil Schiller when he did his media tour was basically everything we

00:18:05   said contributed to the thing.

00:18:08   It's everything.

00:18:09   Tool improvements internal to Apple, staffing changes, and policy changes that I think Gruber

00:18:12   listed.

00:18:13   So there is no one thing that is making this faster.

00:18:16   It's a series of changes which sum up to the stats that they're touting now, which is 50%

00:18:21   of apps are reviewed within 24 hours and 90% within 48 hours.

00:18:25   Yeah, this is awesome.

00:18:27   It's just so, so awesome.

00:18:29   Yeah, I've been stunned by this.

00:18:32   And I think it's a good thing that the tool improvements and just trusting their tools

00:18:38   to suss out any like private API violations, any crashes, potentially things like that.

00:18:43   I mean, trusting your tools, that's a good thing.

00:18:45   I mean, this is why I write unit tests.

00:18:47   (clears throat)

00:18:49   - That makes one of us.

00:18:50   No, I mean, to me, this kinda just shows the potential of,

00:18:55   before Phil took over the app store,

00:18:59   I don't wanna throw anybody under the bus or anything,

00:19:03   but it sure seemed like it was not progressing at all,

00:19:07   and that basically nobody was working on progressing it.

00:19:12   And Phil took over not that long ago,

00:19:14   and a lot of stuff is changing,

00:19:16   and a lot of progress is being made for the better.

00:19:19   So I'm kind of excited.

00:19:21   If all this changed in such a short time

00:19:26   while there's been finally somebody

00:19:29   literally running the store,

00:19:30   what else is gonna change?

00:19:33   In the big picture,

00:19:36   even if some of these things don't work out

00:19:38   or don't do as well as they wanted or whatever,

00:19:41   or make things harder in certain ways

00:19:43   and easier in other ways.

00:19:44   Whatever happens with these changes that they're doing,

00:19:47   they're making changes.

00:19:49   That's amazing, because for like eight years,

00:19:51   they changed almost nothing.

00:19:53   So this is real progress, and this is a rapid

00:19:57   and dramatic change, almost all, if not all, for the better.

00:20:02   - You know, again, the pessimistic take is

00:20:06   this was a management change.

00:20:08   Like Phil's just taken over control

00:20:10   of what previously he didn't have control over,

00:20:12   and when you switch a new manager onto a new project and it's important and they want to

00:20:16   make a good showing, they want to come out of the gate and say, "Okay, you put me in

00:20:19   charge of this and in short order I did these things that made it better, isn't that great?"

00:20:25   That's a pressing need within a typical, you know, bozo corporation, which we assume Apple

00:20:30   isn't.

00:20:31   But anyway, that's one pessimistic take.

00:20:32   And the other one is, we were all excited when they finally turned their attention to

00:20:35   the Mac Pro that had been neglected for a long time and came out with this amazing radical

00:20:38   new computer that shows they really do care about the Mac Pro.

00:20:41   And surely this means that the Mac Pro is off to a new, brighter, healthier future involving

00:20:46   lots of updates and lots of future changes.

00:20:49   Not that I'm predicting this for the App Store, but if you wanted to be pessimistic about

00:20:52   it and, you know, it is possible that there's enough reasons why this might be a bunch of

00:20:58   big dramatic changes that had been a long time coming, sort of like pent-up demand,

00:21:02   and that they'll let this stew for a year.

00:21:04   Not because they don't care anymore, but even just like the idea that they're going to be

00:21:09   be sort of let's try a bunch of things and fail fast or whatever.

00:21:11   Like I think their appetite for churn in the App Store rules has obviously increased, but

00:21:15   I don't think it's that great.

00:21:16   So I would expect this set of rules to possibly be tweaked and sussed out over the next year

00:21:21   and then maybe, you know, I think we'd all be happy if every year they revisited the

00:21:25   rules of the store and saw how they did for a year because you can't really change it

00:21:28   every week.

00:21:29   What are you going to change it in response to?

00:21:30   You don't have enough data to know whether it's a good idea or a bad idea.

00:21:32   So unlike perhaps the operating systems, a yearly pretty regularly scheduled update to

00:21:39   App Store rules is a reasonable idea.

00:21:41   And if you tried to update the rules radically more often than that, I think it would be

00:21:44   too much churn for developers.

00:21:46   No, I mean, even if they change something about the store every two years.

00:21:50   Yeah, we're just saying more than once every eight years.

00:21:52   Yeah, that would still be like radically more progressive than the way it's been all this

00:21:56   time.

00:21:57   Yeah, they did add bundles, right?

00:21:59   Sort of.

00:22:00   The other good thing, by the way, about all these changes we're going to go through is

00:22:04   they all apply to all stores, including the Mac App Store.

00:22:08   The TVOS store, yeah.

00:22:09   All right, so that's fast review time.

00:22:13   Good for Phil.

00:22:14   The next thing is subscription pricing available for all app types, which is by far the most

00:22:20   interesting and the most fraught with doubt announcement.

00:22:24   announcement. Of course, we're only like, you know, one day into this announcement, but the

00:22:28   the gist of it is that, you know, previously if you wanted to sell an app on the App Store that

00:22:33   did subscriptions, it had to be a subscription to some kind of media thing like television or like

00:22:38   a news service or audio or whatever, and now subscription pricing is open to all kinds of

00:22:44   apps. And so a quick, naive reading of that could be like, "Great! Then basically no more

00:22:50   restrictions. Previously I had to follow these special rules to be a subscription app. Now

00:22:53   anybody can just say, "I want my app to be a subscription app." And then you start reading

00:22:56   the rules and you're like, "Is that what they're saying? That any app can be a subscription app?

00:23:00   Or is it just say that any app can potentially be a subscription app?" And that is the current source

00:23:06   of doubt. Again, granted, one day in, I'm sure Apple will clarify, I'm sure things will get

00:23:10   worked out. But right now there's still some doubt about it. So it's hard to know entirely how to

00:23:15   feel about this because all the debates about, "Does this enable sustainable development?" Is

00:23:20   is this, you know, all the things that Marco I'm sure

00:23:22   talked about on his developer podcast,

00:23:24   whose name I can never remember, earlier today.

00:23:26   (laughing)

00:23:29   We don't know if this is going,

00:23:31   like should we indulge in speculation

00:23:34   about how this model might work,

00:23:35   particular kinds of apps,

00:23:37   before we even know whether Apple will allow it?

00:23:40   - Yes.

00:23:41   - We should indulge in that?

00:23:42   - Yes, yeah, because I mean look,

00:23:44   so if you just look at this as like

00:23:49   the most conservative reading of the rules

00:23:52   that they've put on that page,

00:23:54   then it's basically no change from what we already had,

00:23:58   policy-wise, I mean, there are some technical changes, but--

00:24:00   - Policy-wise, it would say you don't have to be a media app.

00:24:02   - Yeah, but you already didn't have to be a media app.

00:24:04   Like, Instapaper has that kind of subscription now,

00:24:07   Evernote has had it forever.

00:24:08   - Instapaper counts as a news thing, Evernote--

00:24:11   - No, it doesn't, 'cause it's not,

00:24:13   believe me, I looked into this back when,

00:24:15   when these first launched in the days of Newsstand,

00:24:18   when New Stand launched in I think 2011

00:24:20   or something like that.

00:24:21   It was only New Stand apps.

00:24:23   And then shortly afterwards,

00:24:25   I think maybe like a year afterwards,

00:24:27   it became available to any app

00:24:29   that was delivering periodic content of some kind.

00:24:32   But it had to be like issues or episodes.

00:24:36   It had to be like, you know--

00:24:37   - It couldn't be for like, I guess it couldn't be,

00:24:39   we don't know, but like if you were delivering video,

00:24:41   because HBO Go and everything has all that stuff outside of--

00:24:43   - It could have been, but it had to be like

00:24:45   episodic content, you know.

00:24:47   So it couldn't just be like you just have access

00:24:49   to this thing forever, but it could be like

00:24:50   you have access to this new thing every week

00:24:52   or month or whatever.

00:24:53   And then that then quickly got like semi-relaxed

00:24:58   into kind of where it stayed between then and now,

00:25:02   which is you could kind of do it

00:25:04   for any kind of recurring service,

00:25:06   but it was risky whether Apple would approve you or not,

00:25:10   because the definitions around it were fairly vague

00:25:12   as to what would qualify.

00:25:14   but it was clear that you had to have some kind

00:25:17   of recurring service, like some kind of backing web service

00:25:22   that had cloud storage or content available

00:25:27   on the service or something.

00:25:28   Most apps would not qualify for that.

00:25:32   - But all that language is still there though.

00:25:35   Everything you just said.

00:25:36   - That's the problem.

00:25:37   So I know Brent Simmons wrote a good post

00:25:40   basically asking clarification on this.

00:25:42   'cause if you read Phil's comments in these interviews,

00:25:46   it sounds like now any app can do this no matter what.

00:25:49   But then if you look at that page,

00:25:50   it looks like that's not the case.

00:25:52   It looks like it's still the old rules of,

00:25:54   and it depends a lot on the interpretations

00:25:57   of some words on the page.

00:25:59   It says all apps are eligible to use this,

00:26:03   but it's appropriate for these types of roles.

00:26:07   So does that mean they would approve it

00:26:09   for inappropriate uses?

00:26:11   It depends on how these things are,

00:26:13   but I think what's going to happen is,

00:26:15   like most times when a new app review policy

00:26:18   gets put into place and the details

00:26:20   aren't quite worked out yet,

00:26:21   what's almost certain to happen is

00:26:23   either in the next few days they're going to

00:26:26   edit the language in that page to be more clear

00:26:28   and to firmly fall on one side or the other,

00:26:31   or unfortunately more likely,

00:26:34   they're gonna figure it out through

00:26:36   rejections later this fall.

00:26:37   And then we'll kinda solidify the policy.

00:26:39   And that would suck, I hope that's not how they do it.

00:26:41   But because Phil is the guy on top of app review

00:26:46   in the grand scheme of things,

00:26:49   and because his actual statements

00:26:52   really strongly say otherwise than that page,

00:26:55   I'm guessing this was probably a debated thing internally

00:26:58   until very recently, and they just kinda haven't worked out

00:27:02   like with the details yet, but I don't know.

00:27:04   - He's from marketing.

00:27:05   They always wanna give you the bright side of it.

00:27:08   That's what his whole role is.

00:27:09   Let me tell you what's great about this.

00:27:10   So even if it was exactly as you said, where maybe they'll reject it, maybe they won't,

00:27:15   he's not going to come and tell you that.

00:27:16   He's going to come and tell you it's open to everybody.

00:27:19   And then sort of allow the chips to fall away.

00:27:21   And I think they did update the copy on this page, because a lot of the language is about,

00:27:25   oh, you have to have like, you know, content or services or, you know, issues or whatever.

00:27:30   But then certain senses explicitly call out exactly what we're talking about.

00:27:34   Like this is, you know, like many freemium apps, successful auto-renewal subscription

00:27:37   App operate services that are continuously supported and often require sustained content

00:27:41   development."

00:27:42   That would be like you get a new level every week or something for a game.

00:27:46   Or "feature enhancements" to retain users.

00:27:49   Feature enhancements is exactly what we're talking about.

00:27:51   We're saying, "Hey, I want to add a new feature to my app that you use to take notes with.

00:27:56   There is no service.

00:27:57   There's not even a sync service, let's say.

00:27:59   There's just an application that runs on your phone.

00:28:01   I just want to add feature enhancements.

00:28:03   Can I charge you a subscription for that?"

00:28:05   right there in the language, but then every other thing on the page just leads you back

00:28:09   into the, "Oh, but of course you have to be providing a service or periodic content or

00:28:14   whatever."

00:28:15   So I don't think feature enhancements was there before.

00:28:17   There's no real equivalent to those pages.

00:28:18   I think these are all new pages, right?

00:28:20   But I don't think that language...

00:28:21   So someone put those words there, but then it's like the rest of the page doesn't agree

00:28:27   with it.

00:28:28   So you're right, it kind of looks like it might be conflicted, but again, the pessimistic

00:28:31   and pessimistic not because we're just mean people but founded on past history

00:28:35   like Eddie, the past has been very much like the rules are kind of vague it will

00:28:40   will nail it down through a series of heartbreaking rejections to a bunch of

00:28:43   small developers and then when you see their bodies fall below you like oh don't

00:28:47   do that what that guy did oh don't do that that's a waste of time they got

00:28:50   those guys waited six months in their app can't get on the store right you know

00:28:53   you know it's gonna be James Thompson again he gets he gets like the worst

00:28:56   luck with app review like you know it's gonna be like James Thompson can have a

00:29:01   a calculator app and you have a subscription and each month you get a new number. So you

00:29:06   have all the digits plus zero plus two operators. So his is like the stop making sense of calculator

00:29:13   apps. I see how it is. I think that if I were Apple, I would do pretty much exactly what

00:29:23   they did, which is I would write the verbiage, how do you pronounce the word? Verbiage. Verbiage,

00:29:30   I would write the text such that it leaves plenty of room for Apple to put the kibosh

00:29:37   on anything that they don't think is appropriate.

00:29:42   But that doesn't mean they'll actually wield that hammer.

00:29:46   It just means the hammer is available to them if they so desire.

00:29:49   Would you do that because you're Apple and you're trying to act like a big jerk?

00:29:53   Because that's what that's like.

00:29:54   Like, let's write it real vague to leave everyone in doubt so we retain all the power and can

00:29:58   to make arbitrary decisions in its future?

00:29:59   No, Apple, decide what you want now.

00:30:01   And if you can't decide to even be honest about that,

00:30:04   this is the worst.

00:30:05   Like, seriously, it's their job to come up with a policy.

00:30:09   Do you want people to be able to charge money

00:30:11   for an app that just adds new features every year

00:30:13   and has no backend services?

00:30:14   Decide that before you write the policy.

00:30:16   Don't write it because how are they going to,

00:30:19   whatever mechanism they're going to use

00:30:21   to make that decision later

00:30:22   when they're deciding to reject someone's app,

00:30:24   do that now as a thought experiment.

00:30:25   Don't wait until it comes.

00:30:26   It's so asinine to not,

00:30:27   I mean, if they're in a hurry and they have to put this out

00:30:29   and they haven't decided, fine.

00:30:30   But I'm saying like, that is a general policy

00:30:32   to like retain, reserve the right to like be vague

00:30:36   and just let people send things in and then decide then.

00:30:38   Don't wait for that to happen with real apps.

00:30:40   Run a thought experiment and decide now.

00:30:42   They should be able to decide, I think, very clearly.

00:30:44   Is this a valid thing to do for just plain old apps

00:30:47   that add features that have no backend service

00:30:49   and no peer-edit content?

00:30:50   Yes or no?

00:30:51   Pick something now, write it down clearly.

00:30:53   I am not even a developer, but I'm super angered

00:30:56   their inability to communicate clearly on this topic.

00:30:59   And if it's just an error in the text and it's fixed in three days, then fine, you

00:31:02   know, go to an Apple, you know, I should give them a break, it's only been a day.

00:31:06   But I don't buy that whole, "This is what I would do too because it remains maximum

00:31:10   power for me."

00:31:11   Like, that's gross.

00:31:12   Right, and the big thing is, like, this, you know, in addition to, you know, hurting all

00:31:18   the existing developers who are going to try this and hurting, you know, new stuff, what

00:31:21   this is really going to hurt, if they can't clarify this or if they don't clarify this

00:31:25   or if it stays in the more restrictive interpretation

00:31:28   of these things, which is only apps with services

00:31:30   and content and stuff, then this won't apply

00:31:33   to things like pro-content editing

00:31:36   or pro-content creation apps.

00:31:37   And that seems like a perfect candidate

00:31:39   for subscription pricing in the App Store.

00:31:41   Something like, if you're gonna have a pro-image editor

00:31:44   or a pro-audio editor or pro-drawing apps,

00:31:48   like pro-apps usually don't have backing web services.

00:31:53   usually don't have a magazine built into them.

00:31:55   - You could have a backing DRM service,

00:31:58   like I was thinking Photoshop.

00:31:59   Photoshop doesn't have a backing service,

00:32:00   but it does just for DRM, but I guess you don't need that.

00:32:02   - Oh, it has all this Behance garbage nobody wants.

00:32:05   Pro apps are a perfect use for subscription pricing on iOS,

00:32:10   because it kind of solves free trials.

00:32:13   It completely, in my opinion, solves upgrades,

00:32:16   if you can get people to pay.

00:32:18   And the people who are most likely to pay

00:32:20   are people who use pro apps to get advanced functionality

00:32:24   on things like their iPad Pros that they're desperate

00:32:26   for amazing software on, it seems like this is the most

00:32:30   clear need for subscription pricing is like,

00:32:33   A, video apps on the Apple TV,

00:32:35   B, pro stuff on the iPad.

00:32:38   And if they don't clarify this rule,

00:32:41   I don't know, it would be royally stupid

00:32:43   for any pro app developers to start developing their pro app

00:32:46   or port their Pro app over to the iPad or the iPhone,

00:32:51   suppose you make an amazing music app for Pros

00:32:55   or Pro photo app and you bring it to iPad,

00:32:57   you want it to charge like 40 bucks a year or something,

00:33:00   and then, oh, you can't do it, reject it,

00:33:02   sorry, you don't have a web service.

00:33:04   That's horrible, and most smart business people

00:33:07   won't even start that development until this is clarified.

00:33:09   So it seems like this is a great way to incent or incentivize

00:33:15   thanks to Phil's quotes on these websites,

00:33:17   it looks like "incent" is actually a word?

00:33:19   - I thought the same thing.

00:33:20   I was like, "Wait, I thought that was incentivized."

00:33:22   Well, I guess not, I guess I'm wrong.

00:33:23   - Yeah, I looked it up.

00:33:24   It's in Apple's dictionary on Mac OS,

00:33:26   so I assume it's real.

00:33:28   - Excuse me, I think you're thinking of M. Akos.

00:33:30   - Yes. (laughs)

00:33:32   I'm thinking of OS X. (laughs)

00:33:35   - Oh, people are gonna hate us so much.

00:33:37   - Oh, boy, yeah, so anyway.

00:33:40   So anyway, this is a great incentive

00:33:43   for pro app development on iOS.

00:33:46   - Or would be if they were clear about it.

00:33:48   And to be clear, it's not as if this rule,

00:33:52   this new rule necessarily needs to be the thing

00:33:54   that solves the problem.

00:33:55   We've identified it as a potential problem.

00:33:56   It could be that these changes

00:33:57   are just not addressing that, which is fine too.

00:33:59   But if they think they're addressing it,

00:34:02   for all the reasons Margo said, they're not really,

00:34:04   because the reason pro apps are scared away

00:34:07   from the iPad Pro and to some degree these days

00:34:11   the Mac App Store to some degree. Yeah, well, all apps are, so you can't tell if it's just

00:34:15   because of the Pro Apps. But they can't be sure that there is a business model that will

00:34:21   support sustained development of a Pro application, because they're so expensive. Because the

00:34:28   barrier to entry of like, what does it take to make a real full-featured Pro application

00:34:32   out of the game, that takes a lot of money initially. You have to have a plan going forward.

00:34:35   You could try like, I think it might be fun to make a silly free-to-play game, you know,

00:34:41   or 99 cent thing, like you can try that

00:34:43   and it can be a throwaway thing

00:34:44   if you have the money to spare.

00:34:45   But if you're gonna embark on making a pro app,

00:34:48   you have to have a solid go-to-market strategy

00:34:50   where you understand how it's going to be sold,

00:34:52   how you're gonna get money,

00:34:53   how are you gonna fund development,

00:34:55   how are you gonna make the money back that you spent on it

00:34:56   and how are you going to continue to pay for it.

00:34:58   And that same uncertainty still exists

00:35:02   if these rules are still vague.

00:35:04   Like I said, this rule doesn't necessarily

00:35:05   have to make that possible,

00:35:06   but when I first heard,

00:35:08   oh, subscription pricing opened to all,

00:35:09   that's the first thing I thought of

00:35:10   finally there's a way to sustain, you know, basically iPad Pro applications.

00:35:16   Expensive to develop, full-featured applications that are important for

00:35:19   people to do their jobs that aren't just put on the App Store and then forgotten

00:35:22   about it and like you make your money back and then you move on to the next

00:35:25   thing. That's what this seemed like and again a lot of language and almost

00:35:28   everything Phil has said makes that clear but a lot of the other language

00:35:32   makes it not clear. So hopefully this will be clarified, you know, again we are

00:35:36   less than 24 hours after this announcement so maybe we're being too

00:35:39   harsh, but I just find it frustrating for the press tour to be leaning so heavily on

00:35:47   All Our Hopes and Dreams and then the actual text of all the web pages to be just making

00:35:51   everything as clear as mud again.

00:35:52   You know, maybe it's Freaky Friday, or I guess since it's Wednesday, Wacky Wednesday,

00:35:57   because Marco is super-duper enthusiastic and chipper about this, and I'm—I don't

00:36:03   know, man.

00:36:04   I don't know how I feel about this.

00:36:05   And I think the reason I'm hemming and hawing a little bit is because looking at this from

00:36:10   the perspective of a very cheap consumer who is happy to pay for apps for sure, but I don't

00:36:17   want every app that is even remotely decent to think of themselves as, "Oh, I certainly

00:36:25   am a professional app and I can go subscription and I can charge, you know, five or ten or

00:36:30   fifteen or twenty bucks a year because I'm worth it."

00:36:33   Where some apps, like Tweetbot, I freaking live in Tweetbot, in Overcast actually, I

00:36:37   spend a lot of time in Overcast.

00:36:39   I would pay $20 a year for those apps.

00:36:42   But there's a lot of apps that I worry their developers will think, "Oh, we are definitely

00:36:48   a pro app, we deserve a subscription pricing, blah blah blah," where I really don't think

00:36:53   that's the case.

00:36:54   I think it should be either a one-time fee or perhaps a one-time in-app purchase or something

00:36:57   along those lines.

00:36:59   And I don't know.

00:37:02   I'm hopeful that this does solve all of our problems like Marco seems to think that it

00:37:07   will, but I really don't want to end up paying a monthly fee or a yearly fee or what have

00:37:13   you for every damn app on my home screen.

00:37:15   I do think this will sort itself out though.

00:37:17   It'll sort itself out on the market.

00:37:18   It's not going to...

00:37:20   Developers are free to try whatever they want, but I don't think these rule changes, especially

00:37:25   in the short term will change what people are willing to pay for applications. All it

00:37:32   will do is make it so that the unrealized, sort of like what Mark would do with patronage,

00:37:38   there's untapped money, like money that people would be willing to give but have no way to

00:37:42   give to sustain the development of the apps they use regularly. Like that's what basically

00:37:45   patron is. Like if you care enough about overcast that you want to make sure that overcast continues

00:37:49   to exist, you know, subscribe, right? And like you just said, you listed two apps that you

00:37:53   all the time that you would gladly subscribe for without any kind of subscription and without

00:37:57   like a patronage thing that Marco's doing.

00:38:00   Once someone buys it from you, there's no more way for them to give you money unless

00:38:02   Marco does a thing where he makes an entirely new Overcast 2 and all the things we've talked

00:38:06   about in the past, right?

00:38:07   So this releases that money from the people who are willing to pay it, but it doesn't

00:38:11   make everyone else suddenly willing to pay way more for the software they have.

00:38:14   Now it could make developers be all like, "Oh, I want to try this.

00:38:18   It's the hot new thing."

00:38:19   But those developers will be sad because they'll find out what is the actual appetite that

00:38:23   to pay a monthly subscription for app,

00:38:25   they'll realize that many people installed their 99 cents

00:38:27   out and never looked at it again or whatever.

00:38:30   Like, I don't think you have too much to worry about

00:38:33   because I really don't think this will change

00:38:34   the hearts and minds of users in the short term especially.

00:38:37   And so if developers change their plans,

00:38:40   they will be punished by not getting a lot of sales

00:38:43   and people will stop using their app

00:38:44   and move to competitors and then they'll change back

00:38:46   and it'll sort of settle down again.

00:38:47   - Right, and that's the thing is that I agree with you.

00:38:50   The users aren't going to look at this

00:38:52   generally speaking, that differently. But what I'm worried about is that even a run-of-the-mill

00:38:58   developer with a good but not world-class app is going to think, "Oh, well, darn it,

00:39:04   my app is great and I think everyone is going to pay a subscription for me." And you're

00:39:08   right that this will kind of suss itself out over time, but I really hope that everyone

00:39:14   in the App Store doesn't immediately run to subscription pricing when really, at least

00:39:18   on my phone and my iPad anyway, there's a very small subset of apps that I think

00:39:23   really should consider subscription pricing that I think really should, that

00:39:30   should be worth it. And granted my handful, my five apps, are different than

00:39:35   your five apps, they're different from Marco's five apps, so maybe that'll suss

00:39:37   itself out that way as well. But I don't know, I just really hope that everyone on

00:39:43   the App Store doesn't immediately run to subscription pricing. I have heard from a

00:39:47   of people now saying, basically expressing

00:39:50   that same sentiment of, you know, I as a user

00:39:54   don't want everything on my phone to all of a sudden

00:39:57   be charging me like two dollars a month or whatever.

00:39:59   To some degree that's reasonable, to some degree

00:40:01   John is right that the market will sort this out.

00:40:05   And also to some degree I think this is an improvement

00:40:08   over the reality that we have now.

00:40:10   So right now, if you consider the example of say

00:40:13   Tweetbot like we've been mentioning, Tweetbot releases

00:40:15   a brand new version of the app,

00:40:17   and Tweetbot is a paid up front app,

00:40:19   and then about every, what, year or two,

00:40:22   they release a new version

00:40:24   that is a brand new standalone app for,

00:40:27   what is it, a few bucks, like five bucks,

00:40:28   or four bucks, whatever.

00:40:30   So basically, you're almost already paying

00:40:34   three or four dollars a year for Tweetbot.

00:40:36   If you move to subscription pricing,

00:40:39   there's not really much of a change,

00:40:41   except it's easier and better for everybody.

00:40:44   - Oh, psychological change.

00:40:46   You know they don't want to sign up for another eel

00:40:48   in Roderick on the Line Parliament.

00:40:49   - I know, I'll get there.

00:40:50   So, you know, and then the customers,

00:40:52   like you don't have to go through the stupid hoops

00:40:54   of like, we'll download the new app,

00:40:55   hopefully transfer all your accounts over,

00:40:57   delete the old app, transfer all your settings,

00:40:59   all this stupid stuff.

00:41:00   Like, you know, it avoids all that,

00:41:02   all the cumbersome complexity of like replacing

00:41:04   the paid app with its next paid app version.

00:41:06   The developers will make more money this way

00:41:10   because of the new 85/15 split that you get

00:41:13   in years two through infinity,

00:41:16   which is a whole other thing that's really cool

00:41:18   and most likely related to Apple TV negotiations,

00:41:21   but with video providers and possibly Amazon and stuff.

00:41:25   But anyway, the consumer side of this is,

00:41:28   everyone's saying, I don't want everything on my screen

00:41:30   to all of a sudden charge me X dollars a month.

00:41:33   If you instead think about it as X dollars a year,

00:41:36   which is probably going to be a more common price point,

00:41:39   'cause you don't wanna,

00:41:40   ideally you don't wanna be bugging people every,

00:41:43   You don't want to be reminding people every month

00:41:45   that they could cancel your subscription if they wanted to.

00:41:47   Like, 'cause every time that email comes in from Apple

00:41:49   saying the following subscriptions are about to renew

00:41:52   like in a few days or whatever,

00:41:53   like that's like a prompt for people

00:41:55   to cancel your subscription.

00:41:56   So you don't really want to do that if you can help it.

00:41:58   Like if you can charge a few dollars a year

00:42:01   instead of a few dollars a month,

00:42:03   that is probably a better idea

00:42:05   as long as you can still make enough money that way.

00:42:07   And so if you think about like,

00:42:09   you know, from like a paid app perspective,

00:42:11   Like if you're paying five bucks or four bucks

00:42:16   or three bucks every year or 18 months,

00:42:20   whenever there's like a new standalone paid app version

00:42:22   of something that's upgraded that way,

00:42:24   versus if you have like a four dollar a year subscription,

00:42:28   it's not that different.

00:42:29   And it's actually way easier for you with the subscription.

00:42:32   So I think this is the kind of thing

00:42:33   where not every app will do it.

00:42:35   In fact, I would guess very few apps will do it.

00:42:37   For the same reason very few apps are paid upfront anymore.

00:42:40   most people won't pay for most apps.

00:42:43   That's not going to change.

00:42:44   Most apps are still gonna be free

00:42:46   with garbage inside of them to fund it somehow.

00:42:48   Most apps are still gonna be like,

00:42:50   you know, you don't really have to pay for really anything,

00:42:53   but you could pay if you want to.

00:42:55   All the big, you know, in-app purchase,

00:42:56   premium, you know, mind trick games

00:42:59   are still gonna make all the money in the app store.

00:43:01   All of those, like all the market forces around this

00:43:04   aren't really going to change that much

00:43:05   as far as I can guess.

00:43:07   What will change is apps that are already now

00:43:12   earning money through some way

00:43:14   that's a little bit clunkier,

00:43:15   now have a smoother, easier way to do it

00:43:17   where they will probably also make more in the process.

00:43:19   And it's easier for both them and for users.

00:43:22   So don't think about it as everything on your home screen

00:43:25   is gonna start charging you two hours a month.

00:43:26   Think about it as maybe two or three apps

00:43:29   that you really use are gonna charge you four bucks a year.

00:43:31   'Cause that's more likely to be the outcome.

00:43:34   And if you think about it that way, it's pretty awesome.

00:43:37   Oh, I agree. I completely agree. I just hope that the people who are writing these apps,

00:43:42   that the developers writing these apps, have the self-awareness to realize whether or not

00:43:47   it's appropriate for them to move to the subscription pricing. And if they don't realize it, that's

00:43:53   why coming back around, I think some of this verbiage is written the way it is on the website

00:43:58   that gives Apple the leverage and ammunition with which—well, I guess they already have

00:44:03   the leverage, but the ammunition with which to say,

00:44:06   "No, this is not an appropriate use of a subscription."

00:44:09   - Again, the market will sort this out.

00:44:11   Developers will very, very quickly learn that pricing

00:44:16   well above what people are willing to pay for their app

00:44:18   is probably not going to work for them.

00:44:20   On the other hand, suppose you have an app

00:44:22   on your home screen, and they start charging

00:44:26   four bucks a month.

00:44:27   If they can make enough money doing it that way,

00:44:31   and you don't wanna pay, good for them.

00:44:34   And that's too bad for you.

00:44:36   You know, like, it's-- - Oh yeah, I agree.

00:44:38   - Like that, again, the market sorts this out.

00:44:41   You know, the developers who overpriced their apps,

00:44:43   passed what the market will bear, will adjust it.

00:44:46   And you as a consumer might have to pay more,

00:44:49   but I would argue that prices for software

00:44:52   have been artificially depressed for quite some time,

00:44:54   and kind of subsidized by a combination of hope

00:44:58   and VC money, I think that it's really good

00:45:01   to have this option.

00:45:03   And not every developer will use it.

00:45:05   Implementing these subscriptions is not that easy

00:45:09   and it's kind of a pain and it's not as easy

00:45:13   as putting a paid app up there.

00:45:14   You have to code in this in-app purchase

00:45:16   and have the back end to verify the receipts

00:45:18   and keep track of who's subscribed and everything.

00:45:20   So it's not simple to do this.

00:45:23   So not every app will do this,

00:45:24   even if Apple would approve them, which we don't know.

00:45:26   So I think this is going to be a much smaller deal

00:45:30   than you expect to like apps on a whole, like as a whole,

00:45:34   but it will make a really big difference

00:45:36   to the relatively low percentage of apps

00:45:39   that will actually end up using it.

00:45:41   - And one thing that developers who decide to go

00:45:42   subscription should factor in,

00:45:43   I'm sure they are all thinking about this already,

00:45:45   but like the psychological barrier

00:45:48   to signing up for a recurring payment,

00:45:50   even if the recurring payment is actually less

00:45:52   than what you've actually been paying,

00:45:53   like for example, say your Twitter client updates every year

00:45:55   and every year you buy a new copy for five bucks

00:45:57   and then they go to two dollars a year,

00:45:59   you're like, great, that's like half price.

00:46:01   And you're like, but what if at the end of this year,

00:46:04   I don't wanna upgrade?

00:46:05   Right, like there's always the whole,

00:46:07   if you're signing up for a bill and you're like,

00:46:09   well, how am I gonna keep track of the bills?

00:46:11   How am I gonna know when it renews?

00:46:12   And we know that Apple handles this pretty well,

00:46:14   in terms of sending you an email,

00:46:15   letting you know that your thing is up for renewal,

00:46:19   that they're gonna let you know if the price changes.

00:46:21   Apple's doing a good job in it,

00:46:22   but just the mere concept of signing up

00:46:25   for a recurring payment, even if it is less money now

00:46:28   and less money in the long term, bothers people.

00:46:31   And then the tech nerdy angle is,

00:46:33   and also what if I just wanna keep using the old version?

00:46:35   - Right, and honestly, as a developer, I say too bad.

00:46:40   So we'll take these things separately.

00:46:43   First of all, the subscription pricing, it's like yes,

00:46:45   but as I said before, people, sure,

00:46:48   that you want to pay between zero and one times,

00:46:52   and then have functionality that's updated forever.

00:46:56   And that's not sustainable, right?

00:46:58   - Well, no, but it's not even that you want it

00:46:59   to be updated forever, it's just that you,

00:47:01   like the idea that it's a thing that goes on

00:47:03   in the background that you have to be aware that it exists,

00:47:05   like the perhaps irrational in the case of Apple,

00:47:07   fear that you will forget this thing exists

00:47:09   and that you'll be in charge, you know,

00:47:10   $5 a year forever, kind of like an AOL dial-up subscription

00:47:14   that you just forgot to cancel in 1997.

00:47:17   Like that's what I'm talking about mostly.

00:47:19   Not the idea that you just wanna pay once

00:47:20   and get future spoons again.

00:47:21   Say you're gladly paying like,

00:47:24   say you're paying like $5 for a new Twitter client

00:47:26   every nine months and you're happy to do it

00:47:28   'cause you think it's awesome every single time.

00:47:29   Then they ask you to pay $2 a year

00:47:31   and you're like, what, in perpetuity?

00:47:33   Like I'm signing up for something that,

00:47:36   it doesn't make sense, but especially again,

00:47:38   especially since Apple is so good about

00:47:39   not letting you forget these things are there.

00:47:41   It's not as if you're gonna not know

00:47:42   that you're being billed for this and everything.

00:47:44   In fact, I think, isn't it like if you don't do something,

00:47:46   it won't auto renew?

00:47:47   I don't know how good it is.

00:47:49   - No, no, that's only if you raise the price.

00:47:51   It will continue to bill you until you stop it.

00:47:54   And right now, the interface to stop these subscriptions

00:47:57   is awful and buried.

00:47:59   - I'm assuming this will all be better, yeah.

00:48:01   - But they've said, like part of this announcement

00:48:04   was that all of this is getting an overhaul.

00:48:05   So a lot of this depends on the implementation details.

00:48:09   It really does.

00:48:10   And so we will see that the previous renewing subscription

00:48:13   system was really rough.

00:48:15   There were a lot of things about it that were really

00:48:18   just badly done or inconvenient or consumer hostile

00:48:21   or developer hostile.

00:48:22   So a lot of this depends on the details.

00:48:24   So I'm just assuming with my predictions here,

00:48:27   I'm assuming that they have made it better enough

00:48:30   that we can overcome those problems.

00:48:33   I see what you're saying, I agree that it is a bigger

00:48:36   barrier but the reality is paying it all is a big barrier

00:48:40   and once you're over the hump of paying it all,

00:48:43   yes, people would choose to pay once if given the option,

00:48:46   "Oh, do I wanna pay $4 once or $4 every year?"

00:48:49   Of course you're gonna choose the first one,

00:48:50   but that is not sustainable.

00:48:53   And we've seen this over and over and over again.

00:48:56   Software these days, people expect continuous updates.

00:49:01   And the pay-once model, whether it's pay-once forever

00:49:05   or whether it's pay-once every 18 months,

00:49:07   then there's upgrades and separate apps.

00:49:09   Both of those are dysfunctional in a lot of ways.

00:49:12   - You're saying it's not feasible for developers, right?

00:49:14   But I'm thinking it from the perspective of the customer.

00:49:17   It's perfectly sustainable from the perspective of the customer

00:49:20   because the customer is like, I buy a Twitter client.

00:49:23   A year later, that developer goes out of business

00:49:25   because no one ever could find a way to give them more money.

00:49:28   And then I pick a new Twitter client.

00:49:29   A year goes by, and that new Twitter developer

00:49:32   releases a new version of his application.

00:49:34   I can use it or not.

00:49:36   Buying a new application every year

00:49:38   is the model that they've been going on.

00:49:40   If that new application is from the same developer, fine.

00:49:42   and suddenly that's sustainable from the developer's perspective.

00:49:45   If that new application is a different one, it's still the same money from the user's

00:49:49   perspective, right?

00:49:50   We're just looking at it from the developer's perspective, saying it's not sustainable,

00:49:53   therefore I'm going to go to subscriptions.

00:49:55   Subscriptions are not going to help you if your application is not attractive enough

00:49:58   to get people over the eel barrier.

00:50:00   Sure, however, the other model has a whole bunch of problems.

00:50:05   So, for instance, why are you not considering buying a Mac Pro today, John?

00:50:11   Mac Pros cost way more than apps.

00:50:12   I don't think this is applicable.

00:50:13   I'm short circuiting this analogy.

00:50:16   Believe me, it works exactly the same way.

00:50:19   Why are you not buying a Mac Pro right now?

00:50:21   Because it's crappy.

00:50:22   I don't want that one.

00:50:23   Because you know a new one's coming out soon.

00:50:26   No, I don't.

00:50:26   I don't know that at all.

00:50:27   Nobody knows that.

00:50:28   Well, the current one's three years old.

00:50:30   That's what I'm saying.

00:50:31   That's why I don't want to buy it,

00:50:32   because it's not a good product to buy.

00:50:34   You expect there's probably going

00:50:36   to be an update to it coming soon.

00:50:38   And if you buy it now, you won't get the updated one for free.

00:50:41   Yeah, no, I know all the anti-patterns.

00:50:43   I'm not saying this is not bad.

00:50:44   I'm just saying, this started with me giving advice to developers.

00:50:47   Hey, developer, you're thinking of changing your applications to

00:50:49   super-flipping pricing.

00:50:50   If you only think about how this will affect your revenue, you're

00:50:53   not factoring everything in.

00:50:55   You also have to factor in how unattractive the idea of a pay this

00:50:59   amount on this interval forever and ever until you cancel is to people.

00:51:04   That is very unattractive to a lot of people.

00:51:07   more so than every year after my favorite app developer goes out of business, find the

00:51:12   next client that I want to buy for two bucks, even though, or five bucks, even though it

00:51:15   may be costing the user more to do it the other way, people are more comfortable with

00:51:20   that. And not just because they're what it's used to, because people have a real fear of

00:51:24   recurring bills of all kinds. Like even if it's $1 a year, like, and I think the older

00:51:31   you get, the more like younger people may eventually get okay with it because you just

00:51:34   get used to whatever like the status quo is. Like, so if you're coming of age during this

00:51:37   won't be a big deal, but the older you get, like, I have trouble convincing my parents

00:51:41   to buy a $2 application. I could never convince them to buy a $1 a year application, even

00:51:46   if they use that application every single day. My parents have $1 a year to spend, but

00:51:50   if I try to say, "Wait, I have to pay that every year? For how long? Forever? If I stop

00:51:55   paying, do I stop being able to use the app?" Doesn't make any sense. People do not like

00:51:59   recurring payments.

00:52:00   You're right, there are a lot of people who don't. It's not everybody. A lot of people

00:52:05   don't care, but there are a lot of people who don't, certainly, but I think so many

00:52:10   of those people wouldn't pay for these things anyway that it's not, I don't think it's as

00:52:14   big of a problem as you think.

00:52:16   - Again, I'm thinking about applications that are changing their thing. The upside to this

00:52:21   and it is very large is for applications that, like the ones that Casey said, we all have

00:52:25   applications on our phones that we hope continue to be updated and improved that we will gladly

00:52:30   pay a yearly fee for. Everybody has stuff like that on their phone. Those developers

00:52:35   now have a way to unlock that money that we were ready to give them, but usually didn't

00:52:39   have a way to do so. So that is the big upside to this. The only potential downside is developers

00:52:45   miscalculating if their application is one of those ones that has that on tap market,

00:52:50   or if that on tap market is big enough or whatever. And so I guess you have to know

00:52:54   as a developer, who are my customers? Who are my potential customers? If I change the

00:52:58   subscription pricing, does my app have that much potential value to that many potential

00:53:03   people that it is one of those apps that can get away with subscriptions? Or does it not?

00:53:07   And the things that Casey was worried about is that a bunch of developers will miscalculate,

00:53:14   will think that they can do it and it will be like, maybe not company killing, but there

00:53:20   will be a short-term loss of applications as a bunch of them try out the subscription

00:53:24   model, lose all the customers who aren't willing to do that, people seek out alternatives and

00:53:28   And then when they change their mind and realize that they're not the one of those people who

00:53:31   can sustain subscription pricing, then switch back and it's too late, they've lost everything.

00:53:34   And that would be like a net loss of like, it would be, it would perturb users who lose

00:53:38   a bunch of applications and we, like I said, the market will sort it out eventually, but

00:53:41   there could be some short-term churn and pain from user perspective as developers try things

00:53:47   out.

00:53:48   Yeah, but ultimately I think this is going to be a very short-lived experimentation period.

00:53:54   You know, people are going to realize very quickly whether this is working for them or

00:53:57   not. And honestly, most developers underprice their work anyway, so I think the opposite

00:54:02   of the problem. I think not enough people will try this.

00:54:06   Although, speaking of the short-term thing, that is another phenomenon, is that if you

00:54:10   are the first application in a set of users' applications that they have on their home

00:54:15   screen or whatever to go subscription, they might be like, "You know what? I really

00:54:19   don't like subscriptions, but I've been hearing a lot about this new subscription

00:54:21   thing, and maybe I'll try it." If you are the tenth one to do that, subscription fatigue

00:54:25   may set in. So like so many changes in the App Store and like the App Store itself, there

00:54:28   is probably a gold rush period where if you can, you know, decide now, like if you want

00:54:34   to run this experiment, it's probably better to start soon rather than, you know, three

00:54:38   weeks in after everyone has been prompted three times on their home screen if they want

00:54:42   to, you know, change the subscription or whatever. Because if you're the first one, that is definitely

00:54:46   an advantage and there is definitely a first mover advantage. And then I guess you'll find

00:54:50   that if your model is sustainable before anyone else does.

00:54:54   I think most people don't really use that many apps

00:54:58   on a regular basis that they would even pay for,

00:55:00   let alone that would be subscription-based.

00:55:03   I'm guessing the average number of apps on somebody's phone

00:55:07   that are going to attempt this at all

00:55:08   is probably something like three at most.

00:55:11   I mean, it's probably not that many.

00:55:13   And that's why I think, I don't think the fatigue issue

00:55:16   or the too many eels issue,

00:55:18   I don't think these will be prevalent because--

00:55:21   - Three is fatigue.

00:55:21   The third one, people are gonna be like, "That's it.

00:55:23   No more of these applications asking me for subscriptions.

00:55:26   Three is definitely over the fatigue barrier.

00:55:28   One is the honeymoon period.

00:55:29   Two is you're getting grumpy.

00:55:31   Three is like, nope, I'm out, for regular people.

00:55:33   - Yeah, I agree.

00:55:34   - I really think these are gonna be mostly

00:55:37   single digit number of dollars per year.

00:55:40   Most people won't have a whole lot of those in their phone,

00:55:43   except the most power of the power users.

00:55:46   Then it's gonna be very small amounts per year,

00:55:49   and it's gonna be fine, and it's just gonna be easier

00:55:51   for everybody once it's all established.

00:55:53   But we'll see.

00:55:55   Anyway, to sum up this thing, I think any kind of change

00:55:58   subscription to broadening it in any way, even if it's vague

00:56:01   or whatever, is a good thing.

00:56:03   Because I mean, I'm talking about all

00:56:04   the potential bad sides.

00:56:06   But net, this is going to be an improvement.

00:56:09   Like, this is a positive change.

00:56:10   All we're arguing about is exactly how positive,

00:56:13   because it could potentially be really, really positive,

00:56:15   or just a little bit positive.

00:56:16   But it's going to be positive.

00:56:17   Like, make no mistake about that,

00:56:19   even though it sounds like I'm just complaining

00:56:20   about all the potential downsides

00:56:21   and how things can go wrong.

00:56:23   Like anytime there's any change, people can go wrong

00:56:25   and developers can make bad choices

00:56:26   about how to change their pricing structure

00:56:28   or the application or which applications to make.

00:56:31   But I can't see any way that this could make things worse.

00:56:34   This is going to make things better.

00:56:35   It's going to make us have better applications on the phone.

00:56:37   It's going to make it so that our favorite applications

00:56:40   don't go out of business as often

00:56:42   after whatever the initial shakeout period is

00:56:44   when people figure this out, right?

00:56:46   And it could potentially finally solve the problem

00:56:49   of how do you get pro-level, feature-full applications

00:56:54   on all of Apple's platforms in a way that can be ongoing,

00:56:57   just like it was with box software,

00:56:58   where year after year they would make new versions

00:57:01   and charge you for them and everything.

00:57:02   And we didn't even talk about the 85/15 split,

00:57:05   except for mentioning it briefly.

00:57:06   Also, obviously, a positive change

00:57:08   for everybody except for Apple.

00:57:10   - Right.

00:57:11   - You know.

00:57:12   (laughing)

00:57:13   (upbeat music)

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00:58:56   - We were talking earlier about the 85/15 split.

00:59:02   So Apple has said if you have a subscription with a user

00:59:07   and that user keeps a subscription for at least a year,

00:59:09   subsequent to that first year being completed,

00:59:12   Apple will only take 15% and they will give 85% of the revenue back to the developer.

00:59:18   And John had made a kind of offhanded comment that, "Oh, that's bad for Apple."

00:59:22   And I presume, John, you don't mean that in a literal sense.

00:59:25   It's good for everybody except Apple.

00:59:27   I was mostly joking.

00:59:28   Obviously, it's good for Apple if more people develop for the App Store and more sustainable

00:59:31   applications, more people develop for longer, they're motivated to make their customers

00:59:35   happy and keep them for a year.

00:59:37   Like obviously there is upside for Apple, but what I'm saying is it's all upside

00:59:43   for developers getting more money, and for users it's upside because the price to the

00:59:47   user doesn't change at all.

00:59:48   They don't really care how the money's split up, except for the fact that they

00:59:51   probably like it, that the developers are getting more money because they're not really

00:59:54   worried about Apple being cash-strapped at this point.

00:59:58   This is great because, first of all, it shows that Apple can lower their cut, and that they're

01:00:02   willing to selectively lower their cut now for the right reason.

01:00:06   - We always knew they could, it just didn't say

01:00:08   whether they would.

01:00:09   - Yeah, exactly.

01:00:10   So this is interesting.

01:00:12   So now they can lower their cut to incent behavior

01:00:17   that they need or want.

01:00:18   So I mentioned on Under the Radar,

01:00:20   this would be a great thing to do,

01:00:21   so for instance, if they really wanted to juice

01:00:25   or subsidize more growth of certain kinds of apps

01:00:28   or certain platforms, if they wanted to say,

01:00:31   all right, anything bought on an iPad Pro would be this,

01:00:34   or any Apple TV apps would have this split.

01:00:37   This is a way for them to turn some levers

01:00:40   to juice development of certain kinds of apps

01:00:43   that they want or need.

01:00:45   'Cause I think they've seen things like the watch

01:00:48   and the Apple TV and the iPad Pro,

01:00:50   having their app stores take off probably more slowly

01:00:54   than Apple wanted them to.

01:00:56   I think it's good for them to develop incentive systems

01:00:59   that they can use to help juice app development

01:01:03   in the right and in sustainable ways.

01:01:06   So that's good.

01:01:07   It's also interesting that this is probably part

01:01:10   of the negotiation of things like getting Netflix

01:01:13   and HBO Go to allow signups on the Apple TV.

01:01:16   And there was actually a report back on Recode

01:01:18   like in April that this was the case,

01:01:20   that they were actually getting 15%

01:01:22   from the beginning on those things.

01:01:24   For the longest time, for the entire history

01:01:25   of the App Store, until possibly this

01:01:28   or until possibly this Apple TV deal,

01:01:30   All developers were given the exact same terms

01:01:33   and had to follow the exact same rules.

01:01:35   Everybody from Facebook down to the one, two, three

01:01:39   note takers on connected, every app was given

01:01:42   the same terms.

01:01:44   And it was very kind of fair and democratic in that way.

01:01:47   And that was actually, from what I understand,

01:01:49   that was kind of a big part of the culture

01:01:50   of the ediQ App Store team.

01:01:52   So, good on them for that.

01:01:54   This is interesting in that obviously there have been

01:01:57   market pressures for Apple to lower that rate

01:02:01   for certain big companies.

01:02:03   A big one is Amazon, right?

01:02:04   I'm sure part of the negotiation with Amazon

01:02:07   are that Amazon does not wanna give Apple 30%

01:02:09   of things that are bought in their apps

01:02:11   or memberships that are started in their apps.

01:02:13   Apple doesn't budge on that and Amazon doesn't budge on that

01:02:15   and that's why we don't have Amazon Video on the Apple TV.

01:02:18   This is interesting in that it looks like Apple

01:02:20   is now budging on that for the right reasons

01:02:23   which include things like getting important partners

01:02:25   in the Apple TV, and that as they're doing that for them,

01:02:29   they're also then bringing in any developer

01:02:32   under certain terms with that too.

01:02:34   So yeah, it'd be nice if all Apple TV apps

01:02:37   were 85/15 for everything.

01:02:39   That's probably not going to happen, at least not yet,

01:02:42   but this is nice that kind of like everybody gets

01:02:45   the same deal thing seems to be still either continuing

01:02:49   or mostly continuing.

01:02:50   And also this is great because like that cut being so high,

01:02:53   you know, 30% is a lot.

01:02:55   That cut being so high makes certain business models

01:03:00   either impossible or at least not very compelling

01:03:03   to even try to do on Apple's platforms.

01:03:06   The more they can lower that,

01:03:08   or the more places in which they can lower that,

01:03:10   the more it makes completely new business models

01:03:13   possible or more practical on Apple's platforms.

01:03:17   And that's good for everybody.

01:03:18   That's good for the developers and the users and Apple.

01:03:21   Everything won't suddenly be possible

01:03:23   because for a lot of business models,

01:03:24   15% is still too much for somebody else to be taking.

01:03:27   - Still can't sell you books, 15% is too high for that,

01:03:30   to give one example.

01:03:31   - Yeah, probably, but Amazon is not going to be happy

01:03:34   with that either, Amazon is only going to be happy

01:03:36   when they can have their own checkout with their own stuff

01:03:39   and not pay Apple anything.

01:03:40   And I don't expect Amazon and Apple to resolve that

01:03:43   anytime soon, because Apple's certainly not gonna budge

01:03:45   on that, and Amazon is not going to accept anything else

01:03:48   from Apple, especially, at least not for the Apple TV,

01:03:51   where Amazon can afford to lose the Apple TV.

01:03:55   - Can't they just do,

01:03:57   you're talking about just for people

01:03:59   who subscribe through the app,

01:04:00   but don't a lot of the video apps say,

01:04:02   oh, if you subscribe through the web,

01:04:04   then Apple doesn't get any of that money,

01:04:06   and then you just sign it.

01:04:07   Why doesn't Amazon just do that?

01:04:09   - They already do that on all Apple's other platforms.

01:04:12   That's exactly what they do.

01:04:14   The only reason they don't do it on the Apple TV

01:04:16   is because there are so few Apple TVs out there

01:04:20   of the new generation that Amazon is gambling

01:04:23   that they can just afford to not be there

01:04:25   and that they have the upper hand in that negotiation.

01:04:28   Whether that's true or not--

01:04:29   - Sell that fire TV boxes so that you can ship them

01:04:32   to people for free as packing material.

01:04:34   - That's the whole thing with Amazon.

01:04:37   I have no pity for either side there.

01:04:39   It's two, you have two stubborn monopolists fighting over

01:04:42   who gets to be the stubborn monopolist.

01:04:43   Like okay, that's, good luck with that.

01:04:46   Yeah, anyway, so I think this is great.

01:04:50   this 85-15 thing is great.

01:04:52   I would love to see this in more places.

01:04:53   I wouldn't hold my breath on that yet,

01:04:55   but I'm glad to see it anywhere.

01:04:57   And to have this make things possible

01:05:00   that weren't possible before,

01:05:02   and to give, to reward developers

01:05:04   who have that kind of long-standing customer base,

01:05:08   to reward them with basically a raise is really cool.

01:05:12   And the only downside to it is that I think

01:05:15   for the foreseeable future,

01:05:17   it's probably going to benefit very few people.

01:05:19   Like there's gonna be very few developers

01:05:21   who have subscription-priced apps

01:05:24   and who have users sticking around that long.

01:05:26   I think it's gonna be a small group,

01:05:28   but for those people, this is really nice.

01:05:31   - And it's the second change that we've gone through so far

01:05:34   that no matter how you look at it,

01:05:36   definitely seems focused on what we always talk about,

01:05:39   sustainable development.

01:05:40   How do I make it more feasible for a developer

01:05:43   to make something for the platform

01:05:46   and then keep improving it year after year

01:05:48   rather than doing the hit and run or the one hit wonder

01:05:50   or the game or other throwaway type of thing.

01:05:52   How do we make that possible?

01:05:53   Subscriptions, no matter how we slice them,

01:05:56   either make that a little bit better or a lot better.

01:05:58   And AD15 after the first year couldn't be more clear.

01:06:00   We want you to keep your customers for an entire year.

01:06:03   If you can do that, there will be a reward at the end of it.

01:06:05   You are now incentivized, motivated to do this,

01:06:09   not scented, because I don't like that.

01:06:11   - It's a weird word.

01:06:12   - Yeah.

01:06:13   And so, yeah, so that's two for two

01:06:15   and trying to make a more sustainable zone.

01:06:17   The only question I have about it, I haven't looked into it deeply, is like the loophole

01:06:21   of like, so it's per customer, so it's like you, Joe Schmo, have been a customer for a

01:06:26   year.

01:06:27   Joe Schmo's subscription money after the first year changes over to 80/15, but the guy who

01:06:33   signed up six months later doesn't change to 80/15 to the same, so it's not calendar

01:06:36   year, it's like customer year.

01:06:37   So if you're a customer, if you have a customer who has been subscribing every month for 12

01:06:42   months and then a 13th month ago, you know what, I'm not subscribing anymore, and cancels

01:06:45   subscription and then five minutes later resubscribe or a month later

01:06:49   resubscribe like if there's a gap in the year-long thing that you lose out on

01:06:53   8/15 does the clock start over again or does it the cumulative 11 months that

01:06:57   they were a subscriber and then after their 12th month like details like that

01:07:00   about it doesn't have to be a contiguous streak if they bail in the last month

01:07:05   but change their mind five minute later five minutes later or a day later or a

01:07:08   month later what are all the rules surrounding that because it would seem

01:07:11   kind of cruel to, like say you're a really good customer for an application and you want

01:07:17   it to be sustainable and you were really excited about being able to fund it for an entire

01:07:21   year because you knew in your second year that the developer would be getting more of

01:07:25   your money. But for whatever reason, you either accidentally or you changed your mind briefly

01:07:30   or something, you cancelled it. And then you re-subscribe and you're like, "Oh, I gotta

01:07:33   use that for another year before this developer gets..." Not that people care so much about

01:07:37   developers that they're worried about it, but I'm just trying to like—I hope there

01:07:42   are rules in there that have reasonable buffers to make it so that you don't—because you

01:07:48   have to keep the customer for a year.

01:07:51   You wouldn't want to lose out on that money due to a technicality or a silly mistake.

01:07:55   Real-time follow-up from Pat Murray.

01:07:57   There's a 60-day grace period on the '80-'15 split.

01:08:00   So that's pretty generous.

01:08:01   That is pretty cool.

01:08:02   I didn't know that.

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01:10:02   (upbeat music)

01:10:04   - All right, so another big change

01:10:07   to the way the App Store works.

01:10:10   You can pay to get placement in search results,

01:10:14   sort of, kind of.

01:10:15   I'm not entirely clear on how this is all held together,

01:10:20   and I'm guessing, Marco,

01:10:21   you probably have the best overall understanding of it.

01:10:24   So can you take the summarizer-in-chief mantle from me

01:10:28   and kind of give us the quick and dirty version?

01:10:31   just go, if you're interested in these search ads,

01:10:33   go to the link that we're gonna put in the show notes,

01:10:35   Apple's page on this, 'cause they have screenshots,

01:10:38   and it explains better than we can in the text,

01:10:40   in the audio.

01:10:42   Basically, the gist of this is,

01:10:44   they are now offering search ads for developers,

01:10:47   so that when you search, you can pay for your app

01:10:49   to show up for certain relevant search keywords

01:10:52   when people search certain words in the app store,

01:10:54   you can pay for it to take,

01:10:56   there's a single spot on top, it's highlighted in blue,

01:10:59   So you're not fooling people into thinking

01:11:01   this is a real result.

01:11:02   It looks like an ad, it's labeled as an ad.

01:11:03   - Well, I think you are fooling people,

01:11:05   but we'll get to that after you finish summarizing.

01:11:07   Go ahead.

01:11:08   - So it's basically, it's very similar

01:11:10   to what we've seen from search engines like Google,

01:11:12   from search ads for over a decade.

01:11:15   It's the very similar kind of thing.

01:11:17   And I think Apple has put in place certain limits

01:11:20   and controls that are there to limit potential abuse

01:11:24   and annoyance and possible fraud issues.

01:11:28   And it sounds like they've actually done a really good job.

01:11:30   It looks pretty good to me.

01:11:32   The restrictions they put in place sound pretty good.

01:11:34   If they work as well as they sound,

01:11:37   I think it'll actually be a really good system.

01:11:39   And by the way, just briefly,

01:11:43   some of those restrictions are things like,

01:11:45   there's obviously, there's only one ad

01:11:46   being shown at a time,

01:11:47   so you don't have to worry about a giant stack of ads

01:11:49   above the real search results.

01:11:51   Because the ads only take up at most half of the viewport,

01:11:56   of that viewport, you're still seeing

01:11:58   whatever the top couple results are,

01:11:59   you're still gonna see those pretty easily on screen.

01:12:01   So it's not really gonna bury the organic search results.

01:12:05   One worry that I saw a lot of people cite

01:12:07   was basically keyword squatting of bidders,

01:12:11   of big budget games bidding on your keywords,

01:12:15   like Image Editor or Podcast Player,

01:12:17   just to get their big budget game.

01:12:19   - Or squatting on your trademarks,

01:12:20   like they would actually register your product's exact name

01:12:23   as a keyword.

01:12:24   - Right, exactly.

01:12:25   And Apple says on this page that you're only going to show

01:12:29   up on searches for which your result would be relevant,

01:12:34   no matter how much you're willing to pay.

01:12:35   And so we'll see what that means in practice.

01:12:38   That sounds a lot like a big data search problem

01:12:40   that Apple's usually not very good at, but we'll see.

01:12:42   I can't, I'm willing to give them the benefit of that,

01:12:45   at least let's see what this is.

01:12:47   Because if they do this well,

01:12:50   and it looks good so far in their press shots,

01:12:53   we'll see how it is again.

01:12:54   If they do this well, I think this is great.

01:12:57   Other developers are, I have not heard

01:13:00   from any other developers who are as excited

01:13:02   about this as I am, and maybe that's a bad sign,

01:13:04   I don't know, but if you have a big budget

01:13:07   and you want more growth, you now have a way

01:13:09   to get more growth.

01:13:10   You can bid on some search keywords,

01:13:11   or there's even what I thought was interesting,

01:13:13   there's an option in the screenshot they show,

01:13:15   there's an option to not specify the keywords

01:13:18   and to just let Apple kind of put you into things

01:13:21   it thinks are relevant.

01:13:22   - Not just the option, I think that's the default.

01:13:24   - I think you're right.

01:13:25   So that I think is more interesting,

01:13:28   'cause honestly trying to keep track

01:13:30   of what keywords you should be bidding on

01:13:32   is a lot of work and there's a lot of voodoo

01:13:34   and a lot of some data, some guessing,

01:13:37   and it makes it more work.

01:13:39   So if Apple can do a decent enough job

01:13:41   and get you a decent return or decently low cost per tap

01:13:45   for automatic searches, you'll actually get in more places

01:13:49   'cause you'll be on keywords you wouldn't have thought of.

01:13:53   and if they work, then great.

01:13:55   So that I think is interesting, but if the system works,

01:13:58   so it's a way for both people with a budget to spend

01:14:01   to get more people to download their app, so that's cool,

01:14:06   and also, you know, people keep saying like,

01:14:08   "Oh, what's gonna happen to like the small developers

01:14:10   "who can't afford this?"

01:14:12   If you're a small developer trying to break into a market,

01:14:16   it is almost impossible to get meaningful exposure

01:14:20   unless you woo the press and get them

01:14:23   to write about you somehow.

01:14:25   This is easier and more reliable.

01:14:27   And yes, it costs some money,

01:14:28   but it's a crowded market.

01:14:30   Sometimes you gotta pay some money to get noticed

01:14:32   'cause you have to buy promotional spots.

01:14:34   If you are going to try to break into a category

01:14:38   where no one's really gonna write about your app

01:14:40   or you haven't gotten the kind of press you want

01:14:42   or it's too narrow of a category for the press to care,

01:14:46   this is great, this is a way for you

01:14:48   to get to your customers and to be visible.

01:14:50   If you're launching a new photo editor,

01:14:52   there is no way you're going to show up

01:14:54   in that number one spot at any, you know, before this.

01:14:57   You could not show up there.

01:14:59   If people search for image editor

01:15:00   and they got this one camera

01:15:01   or whatever is the number one spot, that's it.

01:15:03   That's what they're seeing.

01:15:04   Your app doesn't stand a chance.

01:15:05   Now you have a way to get there.

01:15:08   And maybe you don't do it forever.

01:15:09   Maybe you do it only to like build your initial audience

01:15:11   and then you depend on, you know,

01:15:13   organic spreading of your app after that.

01:15:16   But this gives you an option

01:15:17   where there was no option before.

01:15:19   I don't see how you can look at this

01:15:20   and say this is a bad thing.

01:15:21   The only major valid criticism of this is,

01:15:25   yeah, they really should make the actual search better

01:15:29   before worrying about things like this,

01:15:31   but ultimately, okay, this is reality,

01:15:34   that's not going to happen,

01:15:35   the original search will get better

01:15:38   or not separately from this, that is independent of this.

01:15:41   So in the reality that we live in,

01:15:43   it makes this happening independently,

01:15:44   I would much rather have an app store

01:15:46   where I as a developer can buy keywords

01:15:49   for to promote my apps, and we'll see,

01:15:52   maybe the pricing will make this impossible,

01:15:54   but I would at least rather have the option to try

01:15:57   than to have something where if I wanna break

01:15:59   into a new market, I have to either already be famous

01:16:03   or get the press to write about me,

01:16:04   because that is not nearly as open

01:16:08   and democratic as this is.

01:16:09   - They're trying to be helpful, it seems like,

01:16:12   to people who have less experience in these things

01:16:14   by giving you the tools to do the fairly simple multiplication and division to say, "Look,

01:16:21   you're going to lose money if you bid," because it's an auction system, "if you bid too high,"

01:16:25   if this is a very popular keyword, and a lot of people are bidding on it and they're bidding

01:16:29   it up and up, and you get caught up in that, you won't make that money back because it

01:16:35   costs so much money and it's per tap, by the way.

01:16:37   It's not per purchase, it's not a fair time period, it's how many people tap on your results,

01:16:42   right?

01:16:43   to kind of guess what do I think my conversion rate is going to be. Of all the people who

01:16:46   tap on my ad, how many of them are actually going to buy it? For each one who buys it,

01:16:49   how much money am I going to make? And therefore, how much money does it cost me in aggregate

01:16:54   during this ad campaign to acquire each customer who will give me a certain amount of money?

01:16:59   And Apple will actually have a little tool where you can say, "Look, if you don't want

01:17:01   to do this very complicated multiplication and division in your own head, just put your

01:17:04   cost per acquisition, your CPA goal in there, and then they'll figure out how to maximize

01:17:09   your app downloads. Like, you just give them your target number where you feel like this

01:17:13   ad campaign will be worthwhile for you, whether it's you put in a number that makes you feel

01:17:17   like you won't lose any money or that you're willing to lose a certain amount of money,

01:17:20   like how much do you want it to cost you to get a new customer?

01:17:23   If you want it to cost you 50 cents to get a new customer and each new customer gives

01:17:26   you a dollar, you're going to come out ahead.

01:17:28   Maybe it costs you, you get a dollar from every customer but you're willing to pay $2

01:17:32   to acquire your first set of customers, like Marco was saying on your launch day or whatever,

01:17:36   you can do that.

01:17:37   Just put that number in and it'll do it for you.

01:17:38   Everything they say about this sounds good.

01:17:40   to I've heard, I don't know if this is text from the ads or Phil Schiller talking to people,

01:17:44   the idea that like, say your application is Twitterific and someone types "Twitterific"

01:17:48   into the search thing. I had heard that there would be no ad there, that Twitterific would

01:17:52   be the number one hit and there would be no ad displayed because it is an exact match

01:17:55   for the name of an existing application. In other words, nobody can buy the "Twitterific"

01:18:01   keyword to make their thing show up as the number one hit when someone searches for "Twitterific".

01:18:05   Again, I don't know if this is official or if it's just something that was like floating

01:18:08   around but that is exactly the type of thing that I would expect from Apple to try to have,

01:18:12   try to be classy and not sleazy.

01:18:16   And for the reason that I posted about this earlier on Twitter today and mentioned it

01:18:19   earlier when Marco said that the ads are clearly marked, it doesn't quite work on Twitter when

01:18:23   I, what I said was that I had heard a couple stories about how the ads, how you know ads

01:18:29   will be in search results and all of them had the same screenshot I assume provided

01:18:32   by Apple that shows a search and shows an ad at the top.

01:18:36   And I saw that picture four separate times on four separate websites.

01:18:40   Each time I looked at it, it was like, you know, in the mix with an article that I don't

01:18:43   like skimming and reading or whatever.

01:18:45   I looked at the screenshot and I'm like, "Oh, I guess this is showing an ad result."

01:18:48   And I looked at it and go, "Oh no, it's not showing an ad result.

01:18:50   This is just regular search results."

01:18:51   Because at that point I didn't know it had come from Apple.

01:18:53   I thought people were just showing what the App Store search looks like.

01:18:57   Four times I looked at it.

01:18:58   Only on the fourth time did I realize they're trying to show this as one of those ad search

01:19:03   results.

01:19:04   a little closer and then I saw the tiny letters A.D. in a little tiny blue light blue box

01:19:10   in a light blue thing. And so I posted to Twitter, of course everyone said, once you

01:19:12   say this isn't clearly marked as an ad or you know, basically I posted the story. I

01:19:17   saw this image four times before I realized that it was an ad. But once you say that everyone's

01:19:20   like look this little thing says ad right there. You can see it as clear as day. If

01:19:24   you're looking with that mindset, yes. And other people were like how can you not tell

01:19:27   it's blue? Blue doesn't mean ad. I thought it was like the top hit, a selected hit. I

01:19:32   no idea why it was blue.

01:19:35   And this is a real phenomenon.

01:19:37   Someone posted a tweet with a study showing that something like 57% of people don't identify

01:19:45   ads in like Google search results as ads.

01:19:47   Even though they're also clearly marked, again with a little tiny yellow thing that says

01:19:50   "ad" in them or whatever, if you're not going into it with the mindset that some of these

01:19:54   things are going to be ads and that you should look to see how they're identified, you won't

01:19:58   recognize this as an ad.

01:20:00   It will look like the most prominent and the most important, especially if it's colored

01:20:03   differently and it's on the top.

01:20:05   But there's a difference between recognizing, you know, people say, "What do you care?"

01:20:10   Well, a good analogy someone gave on Twitter was like, "When you go into the store to buy

01:20:13   DVDs," which I guess is an old person who said this, "and you see a DVD on the end cap

01:20:18   of the display, right?

01:20:20   Someone paid for that end cap placement."

01:20:21   Like, it's a whole retail thing where you pay the retailer more money to have your thing

01:20:24   more prominently placed.

01:20:26   Do you care that they paid for that placement?

01:20:28   Or do you just care that,

01:20:29   "Oh, that's the application that I want."

01:20:31   But that analogy does not work at all

01:20:33   because what you want people to know is,

01:20:36   again, in theory, this breakdown is

01:20:38   because Apple search is so bad.

01:20:39   You want them to think,

01:20:40   "When I do a search, the things near the top of the search

01:20:43   are the most relevant to the thing I searched."

01:20:46   Ads don't care about your relevance,

01:20:48   again, modulo Apple's rules.

01:20:50   The thing at the top when it's an ad is not there

01:20:52   because Apple's search algorithm thinks

01:20:53   this is the most relevant application for your search.

01:20:56   It's there because someone paid for it

01:20:57   to be there for your search.

01:20:58   And that is different.

01:20:59   It is different from the user's perspective.

01:21:02   You want to know, oh, this must be the thing.

01:21:04   I search for Twitter, and this is the top one.

01:21:07   This must be the best Twitter application, the most popular

01:21:11   Twitter application, the most downloaded Twitter

01:21:14   application, the application that most matches the keyword

01:21:16   Twitter, or if it's a more complicated thing or whatever.

01:21:19   None of those things are true if it's an ad.

01:21:21   If it's an ad, the answer is it's

01:21:22   because someone paid Apple money to put it there,

01:21:24   which is totally different and totally a misaligned incentive

01:21:27   with what the user was expecting.

01:21:28   Now because the Apple search results are so terrible,

01:21:30   maybe a paid ad is just as relevant

01:21:32   as the number one hit in many cases.

01:21:33   But in theory, it's not,

01:21:36   and I'm not saying there shouldn't be ads,

01:21:37   having only one ad is good,

01:21:38   having it, you know,

01:21:40   having you not be able to fill it with garbage lies

01:21:43   and well, I don't know.

01:21:44   Again, we fall back on the App Store not being that great.

01:21:46   I was gonna say that because the ads themselves

01:21:49   can only contain text from your actual application,

01:21:51   like you don't get to write an ad,

01:21:52   you don't get to write like your own ad copy,

01:21:55   it just pulls from your actual application on the store

01:21:57   you have to have an application on the store,

01:21:59   and all this does is pull your icon, your name,

01:22:01   your description, everything from your actual entry,

01:22:04   that should go towards making sure

01:22:06   that you can't make a misleading ad or a fake ad.

01:22:09   Unfortunately, as we've seen many times over,

01:22:12   you can make a misleading application icon,

01:22:13   you can make a misleading application name,

01:22:15   and you can make your description misleading,

01:22:17   and those can all be in the store,

01:22:18   so this doesn't really save us.

01:22:19   But again, in theory, the rule system is correct.

01:22:22   You don't get to write your own custom ad,

01:22:23   so it's very classy, there's only one of them, it's limited.

01:22:26   If everything goes well, this should all work out

01:22:27   really well and still I say that it's not even Apple Sport no matter how

01:22:32   prominently Apple says this is an ad most people I feel will not realize it's

01:22:36   an ad they could put ad in gigantic black letters and people be like huh

01:22:40   weird ad letters be here they could put this is an advertisement surgeon

01:22:44   general's warning smoking causes cancer in a giant box people would still not

01:22:47   see it this this is a real phenomenon it happens all the time and apples being so

01:22:51   super subtle about it there's no chance that people regular people are going to

01:22:55   realize this is an ad unless someone points it out to them.

01:22:57   Even if they notice the AD, they'd be like,

01:22:59   what does that mean?

01:23:00   Is this an advanced copy?

01:23:02   Or does this application contain ads?

01:23:05   Like, it is not clear at all.

01:23:07   Now, maybe it doesn't really matter

01:23:08   in the grand scheme of things whether it's clear,

01:23:10   'cause most of the top Google search results

01:23:12   are also ads and nobody knows,

01:23:13   and people click on them and the world turns on

01:23:15   and everything is fine.

01:23:16   But I think that is the final barrier

01:23:18   to like a completely clean, totally classy,

01:23:21   I sound like Donald Trump now,

01:23:24   You know, like—

01:23:25   David: Believe me, you don't.

01:23:26   John: Yeah.

01:23:27   And Apple style, how does Apple do advertising in a way that avoids all the pitfalls of advertising?

01:23:35   I think they've avoided pretty much every single one of them in theory, except for the

01:23:37   part where people just absolutely cannot tell that this thing is an ad.

01:23:41   Steven: Well, I think the reason that—well, one of the reasons it's so hard to tell it's

01:23:45   an ad is one of the really great decisions they've made, which is what you were just

01:23:50   talking about that you can't really write an ad for your app.

01:23:54   It just shows your app's search result at the top and labels it as an ad.

01:24:00   And I think that's really smart because then you're not going to have a bunch of really

01:24:03   obnoxious like punch the monkey sort of things going on.

01:24:06   But on the other side of the coin, it makes it nearly indistinguishable from all the genuine

01:24:12   search results below it.

01:24:14   So it's kind of a double-edged sword.

01:24:16   But I will absolutely take this approach over allowing any sort of image there or, you know,

01:24:22   god-awful punch the monkey sort of things.

01:24:25   This is a much classier, much better approach, even despite the fact that by forcing it to

01:24:30   look like the search results below it, it does kind of blend in a bit.

01:24:35   And the thing is, it's not so much that it blends in because it does look distinct.

01:24:38   It's not like, oh, this is just like all the—but it looks like the best result.

01:24:41   Like that was the—I gotta find the survey for the show notes—but the survey result

01:24:44   was like they showed people search results, I don't know if it was Google, but like from

01:24:46   a search engine and they asked them, "What do you think these top results are?"

01:24:50   And people would say, "These are the most popular results.

01:24:53   These are the most relevant results.

01:24:54   These are the results that most other people clicked on."

01:24:57   Like this is what people thought those results were.

01:24:59   What they actually were was ads.

01:25:00   People could tell they were different, that they were highlighted, that they were prominent,

01:25:04   but what they would read that as is, "These are the best."

01:25:07   Like it does look different.

01:25:09   You can tell there's the white results and then there's the one blue one on top, but

01:25:12   how you interpret that blueness is not built into the blueness.

01:25:16   You can't tell that's blue, are you colorblind?

01:25:17   No, you can see that it's different.

01:25:19   Everyone sees it as different.

01:25:20   But if you ask them, again, you don't prime them by giving them the answer and say, "Can

01:25:23   you tell this is an ad?"

01:25:24   You say, "What do you think the blue results were?"

01:25:27   People are going to say, "That's the best result.

01:25:29   That's the one that's the most downloaded.

01:25:31   That's the highest rated."

01:25:32   That's what people are going to say, even though it says right in their face, capital

01:25:35   A, lowercase d, in a tiny little blue box that I guarantee my parents cannot see, by

01:25:38   the way.

01:25:40   Even if you made it bigger, people won't read it or people will think that that meant the

01:25:43   application contains ads.

01:25:44   Which by the way is a thing they should probably tell you, and they do tell you if it contains

01:25:47   in-app purchases, but anyway.

01:25:49   Not clear, not really Apple's fault entirely, probably almost nothing they can do about

01:25:53   it, but it's one of the reasons that someone's asking me if I was for or against this change.

01:25:59   I think I'm slightly against it, because I would rather just have a really good search.

01:26:04   I see all the things that Marco's saying about it from a user's perspective, how applications

01:26:10   "gain traction in the market is not my problem,

01:26:11   "and I just want really relevant search results

01:26:13   "without any ads that I have to skip over."

01:26:15   - Honestly though, as a user,

01:26:17   I mean maybe I'm biased, I'm a developer,

01:26:19   and I kind of understand the back workings of this,

01:26:22   but as a user, I think it also might be helpful

01:26:25   to know because the search is usually pretty poor,

01:26:29   if you're looking for something decent,

01:26:32   if an app is advertising, I think there's a better chance

01:26:35   it's a decent app because it's like,

01:26:37   "Oh, this app is being cared for, it has a budget,

01:26:40   - Or it has a really good free-to-play hooks

01:26:42   and it's gonna bankrupt me when my kid

01:26:45   spends lots of money on it.

01:26:46   - I mean, obviously, games are a different story here.

01:26:49   And games, I think, we don't usually,

01:26:52   when we're talking about app pricing and issues and stuff,

01:26:55   I think we aren't usually talking about games,

01:26:57   which is worth clarifying because games are obviously,

01:27:01   not only are they a massive part of the App Store,

01:27:04   and we should be talking about them--

01:27:05   - The majority of the App Store.

01:27:07   - Exactly, but they also work very differently.

01:27:09   in a lot of different ways.

01:27:11   And so, if you're just talking apps,

01:27:14   like non-game apps, if you're searching for something

01:27:18   to do something, a certain type of app or whatever,

01:27:21   the one that advertises there and that shows up there

01:27:23   and that Apple has deemed relevant to your search query

01:27:26   enough to show you that ad, that honestly to me

01:27:29   is one signal of many that you should take

01:27:33   with whether this is the one you look at or not.

01:27:36   Because it's like having a high quality icon

01:27:39   or high quality screenshots,

01:27:40   or whether you garbage up your name

01:27:43   with a whole bunch of crap,

01:27:44   or whether you leave it fairly clean.

01:27:46   It's one signal of many that you can use

01:27:49   to try to figure out when you're searching for something,

01:27:52   what should I look further into

01:27:54   than the search results screen?

01:27:56   What do I tap into to glance at

01:27:58   to evaluate and decide whether to download or not?

01:28:00   An app that has decided to pay for an ad

01:28:02   and that can pay for an ad,

01:28:04   and that is running an active ad campaign,

01:28:06   and that Apple has deemed relevant,

01:28:08   Those are all useful signals.

01:28:10   - Do you use that same logic when you do Google searches?

01:28:12   Do you click on the first five things which are all ads?

01:28:14   - I don't do Google searches anymore,

01:28:16   but oftentimes for DuckDuckGo, I do do searches.

01:28:20   I know, I'm that guy.

01:28:21   - I am too.

01:28:22   - Casey, you use DuckDuckGo?

01:28:23   You got all your photos in Google Photos.

01:28:25   They have every picture of your family,

01:28:26   but you won't give them your searches.

01:28:28   - Right, because I actually think

01:28:29   that DuckDuckGo has been better for me.

01:28:31   Those bang shortcuts, whatever they call them, are the best.

01:28:36   - Those are great.

01:28:36   - Those ducks, man.

01:28:37   Those ducks are really getting to you.

01:28:38   - They're really going.

01:28:40   No, so like, but in general, search result ads,

01:28:45   I do occasionally click on,

01:28:46   because they are occasionally what I'm looking for.

01:28:48   Like, you know, not every time, certainly, but sometimes.

01:28:51   Sometimes when I search Amazon,

01:28:53   Amazon has like, has sponsored listings,

01:28:56   and like sponsored alternatives to products.

01:28:58   Sometimes I click on those too.

01:28:59   Not all the time, but sometimes.

01:29:01   I, you know, I know what that means,

01:29:03   and I just, so I, you know, I use that as,

01:29:06   Again, one input of many to decide what to do with these results.

01:29:09   Well, we'll see how it works out.

01:29:11   I can see many scenarios in which the people with the most money to spend on ads are going

01:29:14   to be the worst developers with the worst apps, but it's only one.

01:29:19   And realistically speaking, most of the time I'm searching for an app because of the tech

01:29:22   nerd that I am.

01:29:23   I already know exactly what I'm looking for and I don't spend a lot of time browsing,

01:29:25   so maybe this is not particularly relevant to my life.

01:29:27   But in general, I don't really like the idea of advertisements moving themselves into the

01:29:34   store in this way.

01:29:35   but I can see the potential upside for developers

01:29:40   on many fronts, so if it helps more good developers,

01:29:43   then it helps bad developers,

01:29:44   I guess it's a net win for users as well.

01:29:46   - Yeah, and honestly, if you think about big, big picture,

01:29:51   long-term stuff here, I think not only does this make it

01:29:54   easier for less-known developers to get better known,

01:29:58   and it makes it way easier to launch a new app

01:30:01   in a crowded category, but also long-term,

01:30:04   I think this helps kind of support higher prices.

01:30:08   Where like, if we're trying to move towards an app store

01:30:11   where developers have good reasons to charge higher prices

01:30:15   and can sustain those prices,

01:30:17   one of the ways you can get higher prices

01:30:19   is by getting your app in front of a better

01:30:22   targeted audience for people to potentially buy it.

01:30:26   And so the ads will help on that front.

01:30:28   Also, developers will now consider the cost of the ads

01:30:32   when considering how to price their apps,

01:30:34   how high they can price them,

01:30:35   how low they can afford to price them

01:30:38   or not afford to price them,

01:30:39   this is all gonna be kind of added into all this calculus

01:30:42   and all this marketing.

01:30:42   So this will, in general, I think,

01:30:45   help slightly raise app prices

01:30:48   and better reward developers

01:30:51   who can find their target markets this way.

01:30:53   I mean, I think this is a really big move

01:30:57   towards higher quality, more sustainable software

01:31:00   and making it easier, not harder,

01:31:03   new developers to break into the market.

01:31:04   All right, so a couple other quick points and then we really need to get in some WWDC

01:31:09   talk.

01:31:10   Beta will be over the summer and they're not going to charge people during the beta.

01:31:14   They are not showing ads to anyone 13 or younger, which I think is excellent.

01:31:21   And they're not going to do any terribly crazy tracking outside of location tracking, which

01:31:27   you can pretty easily turn off in settings.

01:31:30   So this is, I mean as advertising goes, it's a pretty Apple, pretty classy approach to

01:31:37   it, but it is still advertising in a place that we may or may not want it.

01:31:42   So we'll see, but I'm hopeful.

01:31:45   And this is like Apple's second move into, only second or third depending on how you

01:31:50   can, move into Google style businesses.

01:31:54   It tried to do iAd, a serious kind of Google style thing, and I mean this is what Google

01:32:00   and Facebook like their whole businesses are based on this type of thing.

01:32:03   And so it's about time because certainly Google has done tons of Apple-style things, including

01:32:08   making their own hardware and making a phone and doing all this stuff and trying to have

01:32:11   a desktop operating system.

01:32:13   And Facebook, I mean, it's got Oculus on the hardware front.

01:32:16   Didn't they try to make a phone once too?

01:32:18   Anyway, you know, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

01:32:22   It's nice to see Apple, like, I don't know if it's nice to see it because I'm not that

01:32:27   into the advertising thing, but for so long it seemed that every other company was willing

01:32:31   to try to do the things that Apple was good at, and there were certain things that those

01:32:34   other companies did to make lots of money that Apple decided were not worth really looking

01:32:38   into. Selling ads against search is not a speculative business model at this point.

01:32:47   It is a known quantity, and the fact that Apple just didn't do it for so long, other

01:32:52   than selling the Safari search bar to Google, but that's kind of more of a corporate thing

01:32:56   than individual bidding on keywords.

01:32:59   Yeah, if it wants to make more money from services,

01:33:02   this could definitely work out.

01:33:03   I saw someone joking, again, on the pessimistic angle

01:33:06   that the 8015 split, all the extra money

01:33:08   that developers make will get funneled right back into Apple

01:33:11   in the form of paying for keyword search ads.

01:33:13   But hey, if that is a virtuous cycle

01:33:15   that produces more and more revenue

01:33:18   and more and more customers,

01:33:19   I think everyone will still be happy.

01:33:20   - Yeah, I agree.

01:33:22   - Let's talk WWDC.

01:33:23   - What's WWDC?

01:33:25   It's the thing that you two are going to that I'm not.

01:33:27   Thanks for that.

01:33:29   So this is Wednesday that we're recording, the 8th of June.

01:33:35   This coming Monday, the 13th of June is the big keynote.

01:33:38   And then following the keynote is the developer

01:33:40   state of the union.

01:33:42   So what are we expecting Apple will announce?

01:33:45   We are hearing no hardware.

01:33:47   We're hearing a lot of rumors about Siri on OS X/M-ACOS.

01:33:53   What are we thinking?

01:33:54   Let's start with Marco.

01:33:56   - Basically, you know, it's software updates.

01:33:58   I think it's gonna be the big thing.

01:33:59   You know, what's new in iOS?

01:34:01   What's new on Mac OS?

01:34:03   What is new, you know, TV, watch?

01:34:05   I mean, look, Apple now has four platforms

01:34:08   that they are hopefully evolving at a steady pace.

01:34:12   You know, like, iOS is, I mean, I would imagine,

01:34:16   it's gotta slow down at some point.

01:34:18   It's gotta mature at some point,

01:34:19   but, you know, Apple always pushes that one really hard.

01:34:21   The iPad probably has separate enhancements

01:34:25   for multitasking and everything.

01:34:27   So that's gonna be like, especially 'cause Apple still

01:34:29   is pushing the iPad hard, trying to save its sales decline.

01:34:34   So I expect to see major time and energy devoted

01:34:38   to iPad software improvements for pro use

01:34:42   in all likelihood, things like multitasking.

01:34:44   So what's new on the iPhone?

01:34:46   That's gonna get some big stuff.

01:34:47   What's new on Mac OS 12?

01:34:50   That's obviously gonna be a part of it.

01:34:53   Anything that's new, if there's any new

01:34:56   major underlying technologies,

01:34:58   any new methods of storing files on the local disk, Jon.

01:35:03   You know, if there's anything,

01:35:07   shared technologies, that's gonna get some time.

01:35:08   And then you gotta figure,

01:35:10   this is going to be the first WWDC

01:35:14   since the Apple TV was launched.

01:35:15   It's probably gonna be something Apple TV related,

01:35:19   major new stuff in Apple TV, OS, whatever, TV OS.

01:35:24   And then, I honestly hope there's significant changes

01:35:27   to watch OS too, because--

01:35:28   - Sorry, you're out of time in the keynote.

01:35:31   (laughing)

01:35:32   - Exactly, so like, you know, they unveiled all this

01:35:34   like developer app store changes today.

01:35:36   You know, if you think about like all the software platforms

01:35:39   that need to go into that keynote,

01:35:41   that are especially the ones that are still fairly young,

01:35:44   like iPad Pro and TV OS and watch OS,

01:35:47   that still have lots of room for major improvements,

01:35:50   I think it's gonna be a pretty full keynote.

01:35:52   Not to mention, if they actually shove in

01:35:54   the Apple Music update again, which was rumored,

01:35:56   I hope they don't, but I think they probably will,

01:35:59   if they actually shove that in there too,

01:36:00   that takes even more time, and we know they try

01:36:03   to keep the keynotes to under two hours,

01:36:04   so I think it's gonna be software updates,

01:36:07   the whole thing, basically.

01:36:09   Software updates almost the whole time,

01:36:10   and then maybe a little bit for Apple Music,

01:36:12   and that's two hours, easily.

01:36:15   The thing I'm most interested in is there's been a humongous push towards cloud data and

01:36:22   big data and processing huge quantities of data and doing it server side, like Google

01:36:29   Photos as a great example.

01:36:31   And I'm really curious to see, and actually Alexa from Amazon, I'm really curious to see

01:36:36   what is Apple's answer to this, or maybe even not answer, but what is their approach to

01:36:42   solving similar problems?

01:36:45   not even necessarily with photos, but just in general. Everyone who has an Alexa seems to fall

01:36:50   in love with her. So what is Apple doing with Siri or an equivalent technology to keep our attention

01:36:59   on products that they create? And I don't know what that's going to be, but I'm very curious to see

01:37:05   what they do in that department because I suspect they're going to do something that is a little bit

01:37:12   different than everyone else, a little bit more Apple than everyone else, which is obvious,

01:37:16   but something that we didn't really expect. And I'm looking forward to seeing what that is.

01:37:20   Hear Marco make his snarky file system comment about new ways of storing bits to disk or

01:37:26   whatever. We realized that we're all entering the age where we say things like, "Did you tape that

01:37:35   on TV?" I think we all say tape. Do you guys say tape that? You should tape that?

01:37:39   I know what you're saying, but I think I usually say record.

01:37:42   And you may be able to pass that, but I'm borderline, in my generation, we all tape

01:37:46   things, you know, and it doesn't make any sense because for such a long time, we haven't been

01:37:50   using VCRs for anything that has actual tape. So we still on phones and even you'll watch the

01:37:56   WWDC presentations, unless it's being done by a very young person, we'll talk about, you know,

01:38:01   disk IO or writing things to disk. There's no disk. There never has been a disk in a phone,

01:38:05   right, as in a round thing that spins. But we still say disk. So disk is the new tape.

01:38:10   What else is new? Anyway, speaking of that, you know, if they want to announce a new FASA,

01:38:15   that's fine. Like, whatever. I still say 2017. We're not going to see this thing on people's

01:38:20   computers until 2017, but you want to announce it a year early? I'm all for it. Bring it on.

01:38:25   Anyway, to more serious predictions, I'm really sad if all these rumors about no hardware are

01:38:31   true because I'm excited about hardware, but you know, what can you do?

01:38:36   The obvious ones are the Mac and iOS updates because the iOS upstate, whatever, we know

01:38:42   that's happening.

01:38:43   The Mac one, we also kind of know it's happening.

01:38:45   We know about a rebrand, we know about Siri on the Mac.

01:38:49   I don't know what other features they're going to mix in there.

01:38:51   That's all well and good.

01:38:53   on the marketing and the design of the WWDC site and also all the activity on Swift Evolution

01:39:02   which has been done totally out in the open, surely there will be stuff in there about

01:39:05   the new version of Swift.

01:39:06   I mean we already know everything about Swift 3, look at the mailing list, it's all public,

01:39:09   you know what's going to be in there, I don't think there's going to be any surprises there,

01:39:11   like "oh there's a secret feature of Swift 3 that we didn't even reveal!"

01:39:14   Maybe one or two minor ones like that but nothing earth-shattering, but they will emphasize

01:39:18   that, you know, it'll get a slide or two in the keynote and then much more in the State

01:39:21   Hey, if you haven't been paying attention, Swift 3 is actually pretty different than

01:39:24   Swift 2.2 and a bunch of ways that are going to break your apps, but don't worry, Xcode

01:39:27   will fix them for you.

01:39:28   Well, and speaking of Xcode, you know, you said that there's not a lot of surprises they

01:39:32   could have with regard to Swift because it's all out in the open, and I agree, but they

01:39:36   could certainly have some surprises around Xcode.

01:39:39   For example, much better Swift support, for example, syntax highlighting that doesn't

01:39:44   crash constantly, for example, segfault11 going away.

01:39:47   Maybe it crashes even more.

01:39:50   Is that a feature or a bug?

01:39:51   - Historically speaking, they've done a lot of changes

01:39:53   to Xcode to support Swift and not all of them

01:39:56   have reduced the number of crashes.

01:39:58   - Yeah, so we'll see.

01:39:59   I would love, God, would I ever love to have

01:40:03   some improvements to Xcode with regard to Swift.

01:40:05   And actually I like Xcode.

01:40:06   I don't begrudge it like so many people seem to,

01:40:10   perhaps because I just haven't been using it long enough,

01:40:12   but there are definitely annoyances

01:40:14   that I run into pretty much daily,

01:40:16   that I would, and typically around Swift,

01:40:18   that I would love to see improved.

01:40:21   So fingers crossed.

01:40:22   - You're pretty much guaranteed to get that.

01:40:24   There's gonna be a new version of Xcode.

01:40:25   It's gonna have better Swift support.

01:40:27   It's gonna have fewer bugs, it's gonna be faster.

01:40:28   It's gonna support all the new Swift,

01:40:30   like that's gonna happen.

01:40:30   That happens every year.

01:40:31   That's gonna happen as well.

01:40:32   That's also a gimme.

01:40:33   I think the wildcards for me are,

01:40:38   again, still sticking to software, watchin' TV.

01:40:40   I don't know, first of all,

01:40:42   I don't know how much room there is.

01:40:44   The things I just listed,

01:40:45   you're already at the point where you have room

01:40:47   maybe one or two more segments.

01:40:49   How much can you really say about watching TV?

01:40:51   I also am under the impression that one of those two platforms is not going to have that

01:40:56   much new about it.

01:40:57   I just don't know which one it is.

01:40:58   I hope it's TV because it's the newer one and the watch could really use some TLC, but

01:41:05   I'm not quite sure what to expect there.

01:41:08   >>Trevor O'Reilly TV doesn't really need a whole lot right now.

01:41:11   >>John

01:41:17   hardware update thing.

01:41:18   And honestly, I'm not expecting the Apple TV

01:41:21   to be updated every year.

01:41:22   I'm guessing we don't get a new one this fall.

01:41:24   I'm guessing maybe it's on a two year cycle.

01:41:25   But we'll see.

01:41:26   We'll talk about that later.

01:41:29   But the TV OS in general, it's fine.

01:41:32   It's not perfect, but it's fine.

01:41:35   The watch really needs a lot of help in a lot of areas.

01:41:38   And it's also, as you said, it's also the older platform.

01:41:41   So I would expect, I hope that if they're trying

01:41:46   to figure out how to allocate resources here,

01:41:48   I hope watchOS gets more attention.

01:41:51   In reality, from what I've heard,

01:41:53   watchOS is still a very separate team

01:41:56   from the rest of the organization,

01:41:57   but I really hope we see something significant from watchOS.

01:42:02   And I think we will, I think the time is right.

01:42:04   - And even if they didn't have time

01:42:05   to do a whole rethink and revamp,

01:42:07   they just do custom watch faces,

01:42:08   they get a lot of applause,

01:42:09   everybody comes out smiling, right?

01:42:10   It doesn't take much, you know?

01:42:12   Like, 'cause that's a significant enough feature

01:42:14   where they don't have time to really delve

01:42:16   into all the details of what is the role

01:42:19   of the watch and blah, blah, blah.

01:42:20   If you just do custom watch faces

01:42:21   that opens up such a market

01:42:23   and people will attend the sessions

01:42:24   and everyone will wanna make one

01:42:25   and people who have watches will be excited about the idea.

01:42:28   That's just a, you know, I'm not saying that,

01:42:30   I'm not predicting this is something we're gonna do,

01:42:31   but all you need is one announcement of that caliber.

01:42:34   It will tamp down a lot of the grumbling.

01:42:37   And again, I don't think they have time

01:42:39   even in the presentation.

01:42:40   If they've totally rethought watchOS,

01:42:41   like an Marco style rethink where like, you know,

01:42:44   We've learned a lot from years worth of work,

01:42:46   and it turns out we were totally wrong

01:42:47   about ways that people use their watches.

01:42:50   I don't know if you have time to talk about that

01:42:51   with everything else, because my final prediction is like,

01:42:53   if this is ready, this will be a cornerstone

01:42:57   of the presentation, which is,

01:42:58   we know Siri's coming to the Mac and everything,

01:43:00   but like, if there is a radically new,

01:43:01   better version of Siri, which I really hope there is,

01:43:05   I think Apple, that will be a fairly big leg on the stool

01:43:08   that is this presentation, just if not,

01:43:11   just simply because those things are prominent now.

01:43:13   with the Echo and with Alexa and with Google I/O

01:43:18   leaning so heavily on that,

01:43:20   and with the rumors of Apple improving Siri,

01:43:22   they will spend time in the keynote saying,

01:43:25   Siri is better than ever.

01:43:27   I think they have to, to show that they are still,

01:43:32   that they are still relevant in that market.

01:43:33   They were one of the pioneers in that market,

01:43:36   and everyone else has seemed to be eclipsing them.

01:43:39   They have to say, they have to at least say,

01:43:40   hey, we're still here.

01:43:41   And I think that what they would like to say is,

01:43:43   In fact, the new version of Siri is the most amazing thing

01:43:47   you've ever seen, and we're gonna burn a lot of keynote time

01:43:49   showing you demos of people talking into a computer

01:43:51   that they hope to God listens to them

01:43:53   and does what they want it to do live on stage, right?

01:43:56   So I don't know anything about whether

01:43:57   a amazing new version of Siri is ready,

01:44:00   but if it is, I think that's gonna get a lot of time.

01:44:02   So when I envision this keynote, I see lots of software,

01:44:05   every single update has something that you like,

01:44:08   and tent pole features,

01:44:11   the really new version of Siri, Swift in the new version of Xcode as the little developer

01:44:17   nugget and then some other wildcard for maybe Watch or something else I'm not even thinking

01:44:21   of.

01:44:22   Yeah, I forgot about Siri, but that's obviously, you're totally right. In the current landscape,

01:44:27   they need to say something about Siri. So I'm totally with you. I think they will present

01:44:34   a new version of Siri that appears to be very much improved. Whether it is actually very

01:44:39   are much improved, we don't know yet.

01:44:41   And it might not be, but I think they will definitely

01:44:45   present it as if it is, regardless.

01:44:47   And if there's an API, even better,

01:44:50   I really, really hope there is a Siri API.

01:44:52   I think we are way past due for that, but--

01:44:55   - That's part of the new improved Siri,

01:44:56   not just that it listens to you better,

01:44:57   but that it's like those other ones

01:44:59   where they all have APIs and Apple doesn't yet.

01:45:01   - Yeah, I mean, if there's really an API to Siri,

01:45:04   and it's done in a way that maps can actually

01:45:07   take advantage of, not just like a handful

01:45:08   of real tiny use cases, but if it's done well

01:45:11   and if it's done broadly, so lots of apps can use it

01:45:14   for lots of good things, it almost wouldn't matter

01:45:17   whether the underlying service improved at all otherwise

01:45:19   or not, that would be enough.

01:45:21   That is such a big deal to do that.

01:45:23   That would certainly be a much better Siri.

01:45:26   - And I think last year, I think maybe the past,

01:45:29   I think my track record for WSC predictions

01:45:31   the week before have been awful,

01:45:33   like that I'm just totally wrong about everything.

01:45:35   - Not as bad as mine.

01:45:37   just take that into account so it's much easier for me to do the next thing which is like

01:45:42   which announcements would you most be excited about and the more I think about it the more

01:45:45   I think that I would actually be more excited by a new Mac Pro than a new file system. Not

01:45:49   because I think the new Mac Pro is more needed than the new file system but because like

01:45:54   The Last Guardian I'm willing to wait till, you know, I don't have to wait until 2017

01:45:58   for The Last Guardian, right guys? 2016? Anyway, I'm willing to wait. 2017 is my file system

01:46:04   I'm five minutes away. It's over there 2017 new file system if you want to announce it now fine

01:46:09   But if not, I won't be broken up

01:46:10   But this is the year of the new Mac Pro if you're gonna keep making the Mac Pro

01:46:13   It's time so I will that is the the announcement at WDC will get me personally the most excited is new Mac Pro

01:46:20   Not probably nothing but what's exciting to almost anyone else in the entire audience especially Casey, but that's that's what I want

01:46:27   If they do a new file system and not the Mac Pro

01:46:31   I'll be like you could have saved the file system to next year and give me the Mac Pro this year because honestly a new file

01:46:36   System is not gonna help any but not gonna help my poor 2008 Mac Pro right now

01:46:39   Like it's new fossils not even gonna probably run on it. Well, maybe on the SSD, but

01:46:43   Anyway, I want a new Mac Pro in this completely hardware free keynote

01:46:48   I'm almost certainly not gonna get one but that's my pie in the sky dream. Well if you could pick any

01:46:52   Feasible announcement for WWC is your number one. What would it be?

01:46:56   That's a really good question

01:46:59   - Hmm, I mean, we already got like, you know,

01:47:02   substantial app store business model changes today, so.

01:47:06   - Yeah, you can't pick that one.

01:47:07   I would say that it becomes unfeasible,

01:47:08   because if they were there,

01:47:10   they would have been in this announcement.

01:47:11   So it's no longer feasible.

01:47:12   Not that they can't do them,

01:47:12   but it's just that you got them.

01:47:14   - Right, so you're talking just keynote,

01:47:16   not like the whole conference,

01:47:17   just keynote announcements, basically.

01:47:19   - Yeah.

01:47:19   - Hmm, it's 'cause, you know,

01:47:20   one of the wild cards that people are asking for,

01:47:22   or that people are predicting possibly,

01:47:23   is some kind of developer tools for the iPad,

01:47:26   whether it's Xcode or Playgrounds or something else,

01:47:28   some kind of developer story for iPad.

01:47:30   - Last year or the year before,

01:47:31   I thought they were gonna announce it.

01:47:32   Yeah, I fully expect that to arrive someday,

01:47:34   but I haven't heard enough rumblings

01:47:35   to think this is the year, but who knows?

01:47:37   - Yeah, I mean, it depends, what would be the scope of it?

01:47:40   Like, if they wanted to bring just Swift playgrounds,

01:47:45   just that to the iPad without the whole developer tool stack,

01:47:49   that's obviously a much smaller problem set to bring over,

01:47:53   and that is more plausible, like you just have playgrounds.

01:47:56   to bring over Xcode for the iPad,

01:47:59   I think people who are predicting that

01:48:01   maybe don't understand or don't know

01:48:03   quite how complex of a job that would be

01:48:05   because it isn't just the Xcode interface,

01:48:08   it's the entire system of,

01:48:12   the massive ecosystem and pile of tools and frameworks

01:48:17   and everything that goes under Xcode,

01:48:19   everything that Xcode is calling out to

01:48:22   to do all the work and all these build tools

01:48:25   and integration with other things

01:48:26   that are part of people's build needs and everything.

01:48:28   Like it's so complex to bring over all of Xcode,

01:48:32   I don't think it's going to happen in the near future

01:48:34   because it just depends.

01:48:35   - It's coming.

01:48:36   I think it's pretty near.

01:48:37   There's a reason the iPad Pro has four gigs.

01:48:39   Like, I'm not saying it's gonna be this year,

01:48:42   but I think it's totally feasible this year

01:48:44   and next year is when you should really be on the lookout

01:48:46   if it doesn't happen this year.

01:48:47   'Cause I think it's coming.

01:48:48   - Full on Xcode or just like a playground equivalent?

01:48:51   - Obviously it'll be a different application.

01:48:52   You can't have all the windows and everything, right?

01:48:54   But like all those tools that Margot was talking about,

01:48:56   like I said, I think that's why the iPad Pro has four gigs.

01:48:59   Why else does the iPad Pro have four gigs?

01:49:00   It doesn't make any sense unless it is allowing

01:49:03   for a class of application that does not yet exist

01:49:05   on the iPad, and one of those classes of applications

01:49:08   would be a ever so slightly cut down version of Xcode.

01:49:11   - I don't know, I think it has that much RAM

01:49:13   just so it can multitask efficiently and well, but--

01:49:16   - Well then why doesn't mine have four gigs?

01:49:18   (laughing)

01:49:19   I like the multitask.

01:49:20   - No, I think long-term Xcode will,

01:49:24   or developer tools will come to the iPad,

01:49:27   but I don't think we're there yet

01:49:29   because it is such a big job.

01:49:31   Playgrounds, it's some kind of very cut down subset of it,

01:49:35   maybe, but whatever we would call,

01:49:39   something that we would consider Xcode or equivalent.

01:49:42   - Can you make an app and put it on the App Store?

01:49:44   - Maybe, but there's so much there

01:49:49   that you need for the platform to support

01:49:52   that it just doesn't yet, or that it does very clunkily

01:49:56   so far for developer tools?

01:49:58   - It wouldn't have to be sandboxed, you know.

01:50:00   It would be the one app that's, you know,

01:50:02   no rules would apply to that.

01:50:04   - No, but it's so much to bring over,

01:50:07   and so much change, and so much that people don't,

01:50:11   if you just think about that idea,

01:50:13   if you just throw it out there,

01:50:14   you don't realize quite how much more is involved

01:50:17   until you really start thinking about,

01:50:18   okay well, let's bring over things like version control

01:50:21   and package management and all the compilers

01:50:22   and all the linkers and all the libraries

01:50:24   and all the tools and like--

01:50:25   - I think they'll all run in four gigs.

01:50:27   - Oh geez, I mean it's--

01:50:29   - You mean your compile times will not be good.

01:50:31   - No. - Right.

01:50:32   - I don't know.

01:50:33   - And you know, it's already slow on like an iMac.

01:50:36   - Yeah, I know, I know.

01:50:37   - To build like a big Swift project, it's not fast.

01:50:39   You know, that's what I'm saying.

01:50:41   Like I think, you know, long term,

01:50:43   I think we'll probably get there,

01:50:44   but I would not expect this to be imminent, you know,

01:50:48   unless it is only a very cut down version

01:50:50   like Playgrounds only.

01:50:52   - Yeah, I agree.

01:50:53   - I had a vision in the audience

01:50:55   when Swift was announced and my vision was Xcode for iPad

01:50:57   and now just because I had that vision,

01:50:59   I feel like it's closer than other people do

01:51:01   but it doesn't make any sense.

01:51:02   Anyway, that wouldn't be your most excited.

01:51:03   You still haven't said what you'd be most excited about

01:51:05   that's feasible.

01:51:07   - I guess it would probably be Mac Pro plus 5K

01:51:10   but I think it's, Apple PR has been so clearly leaking

01:51:14   to everybody that there's not gonna be any new hardware

01:51:17   So I think--

01:51:18   - It's still feasible, but you can have that as your pick.

01:51:20   I had it as, you know.

01:51:21   - But I would even argue it's not feasible,

01:51:23   because Apple PR has basically said it's not happening.

01:51:26   - I mean like technically feasible.

01:51:28   Like the reason that the App Store changes aren't feasible

01:51:30   is 'cause they already did that.

01:51:31   Not because, like, you know, anyway.

01:51:33   If you don't wanna pick that, I would've picked for you

01:51:35   watch, but you don't wear the watch anymore, nevermind.

01:51:37   You were so excited about watch faces

01:51:39   until you stopped wearing it.

01:51:41   - Well, and you know, I would certainly be interested

01:51:43   in developing watch faces, but I think I would be,

01:51:45   I'd be more interested if the watch hardware also changed

01:51:50   to have some kind of always-on screen mode.

01:51:52   'Cause that, like, now that I've gotten accustomed

01:51:55   to regular watches, the one thing that really irritates me

01:51:59   when I go back to the Apple Watch for like a day here

01:52:01   or there is that the face isn't always on.

01:52:05   So like you glance out and you have to wait

01:52:06   for it to turn on, and sometimes it doesn't.

01:52:09   Like that, adding that level of, adding that amount

01:52:11   of friction to every little interaction

01:52:13   that when you're glancing at your watch

01:52:15   when you aren't used to it is very,

01:52:18   just kind of just grinds, like it's just kind of,

01:52:20   it's irritating, you know?

01:52:22   So for me to get back into wearing the Apple Watch

01:52:26   and using it for any meaningful amount of time,

01:52:30   I would need, I think, two things.

01:52:31   I would need, first, I would want custom watch faces

01:52:33   and I want to make my own, of course.

01:52:36   And then second, I would want some kind of Always On Screen.

01:52:39   And I don't, I just don't think that's feasible this year.

01:52:41   You know, maybe in a hardware event later this year

01:52:45   or next year when a new watch is unveiled, maybe then.

01:52:48   But honestly, given the state of the watch hardware

01:52:52   and software today, it doesn't seem like

01:52:54   an always on screen mode is even in the plans.

01:52:57   But I don't know.

01:52:59   - Well, your inability to pick one is in keeping

01:53:01   with your top four performance.

01:53:03   - Exactly. - Casey, what is your--

01:53:05   - I will partially not pick three options here.

01:53:07   (laughing)

01:53:09   - Your feasible announcement that you'd be

01:53:11   most excited about?

01:53:12   See?

01:53:13   It's hard.

01:53:14   It's hard.

01:53:15   I don't know.

01:53:16   I have answers for both of you.

01:53:20   I already gave Marco's answer.

01:53:21   He should have been the watch face one.

01:53:23   Casey's answer is the new MacBook Pro.

01:53:28   No, because I'm not going to get one.

01:53:30   I know, but you would be most excited about it.

01:53:32   You want one.

01:53:33   You know you shouldn't get one.

01:53:34   You'd feel ashamed, but you'd be like, "Oh, those are awesome."

01:53:37   I think that is true, that I would lust for one,

01:53:40   and I would be excited about one.

01:53:42   But I am pretty happy with my Retina 5K life at home,

01:53:47   and sitting here now, in famous Casey Last Words,

01:53:51   I don't see anything wrong with my current MacBook Pro.

01:53:53   - Just wait until you start seeing people unlock

01:53:57   their new MacBook Pros with Touch ID

01:53:59   while you're typing in your password

01:54:00   with the lock screen again and again.

01:54:01   - Truth.

01:54:02   No, I think, you know what?

01:54:06   This is a very odd choice, and it wouldn't be during the keynote, I'm quite sure.

01:54:11   But I'd love to see a better reflection API in Swift.

01:54:17   Because I feel like that reflection allows me to solve a whole class of problems.

01:54:22   And I include in that annotations as well.

01:54:27   So in C#, that would be attributes.

01:54:31   Reflection and annotations in Swift I think would be really, really awesome.

01:54:35   and it would help me solve a bunch of problems

01:54:37   that I'm struggling to solve today.

01:54:39   There are ways around these problems,

01:54:41   or there are ways to solve these problems

01:54:42   without reflection, without meta-programming,

01:54:45   but it would be easier if I had it.

01:54:48   Oh, and I always get them backwards,

01:54:50   but covariance and contravariance and generics,

01:54:52   better support for that because it's driving me up a wall.

01:54:55   - I would say that those aren't feasible

01:54:56   only because if they were coming,

01:54:58   you would have already seen them on Swift Evolution

01:55:00   because those are exactly the type of stuff they would do.

01:55:01   And they talked about them and I think they are coming,

01:55:04   but probably not Swift 3.

01:55:05   - That's what I want most.

01:55:07   - See, we all want things that are not feasible.

01:55:09   - Right, that's the problem.

01:55:10   - But there's so many things that are feasible.

01:55:11   Like I think all the unannounced hardware is feasible.

01:55:14   Like they could announce it

01:55:15   even if it's not shipping for a long time, right?

01:55:18   Even a new Apple TV or something like that

01:55:20   would be feasible, but oh well.

01:55:23   - I mean, I think something that is truly feasible

01:55:26   that I think I would be the most amped up about

01:55:29   is actually probably the Thunderbolt display

01:55:31   because at first I didn't really get the draw,

01:55:33   But now that I'm living this life that we were discussing earlier, where I'm really living in the simulator

01:55:41   and doing it on a non-retina screen, it's pretty friggin' miserable.

01:55:45   And it's miserable enough that I would probably use my own personal money

01:55:51   to buy myself a Thunderbolt display or whatever they end up calling it, an external retina display,

01:55:57   and bringing it to the office and having it just live there,

01:56:00   because it would make my professional life that much better.

01:56:03   - Hear that Apple, we all want 5K external displays.

01:56:06   Chop chop.

01:56:07   - Yes please.

01:56:08   - You know John, you'd have to buy a new Mac Pro to drive it.

01:56:10   - Yeah, I know.

01:56:11   - There is no way your 2008 Mac Pro is driving that thing.

01:56:14   GPU inside or not, there's no way it's driving it.

01:56:17   You don't even have Thunderbolt 1 ports.

01:56:19   You don't even have USB 3.

01:56:21   - Nope.

01:56:21   Does the current Mac Pro?

01:56:23   Yeah it does, right?

01:56:24   - Yeah, just barely.

01:56:25   - It doesn't have USB C, Type C characters.

01:56:28   - All right, thanks to our three sponsors this week.

01:56:31   Ring, Hover, and Backblaze.

01:56:33   And we will see you next week live from California,

01:56:36   where we will be on vacation always.

01:56:39   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:56:44   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:56:46   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:56:49   ♪ Oh it was accidental ♪

01:56:52   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:56:54   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:56:57   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:57:00   ♪ Oh it was accidental ♪

01:57:02   And you can find the shownotes at ATP.FM

01:57:08   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:57:12   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:57:16   So that's Casey, Liszt, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:57:21   Aunty, Marco, Arman, S-I-R-A-C

01:57:26   U-S-A, Syracuse, it's accidental

01:57:32   They didn't mean to accidental (accidental)

01:57:37   Tech podcast so long

01:57:41   So if you want this this would be a good time for me to talk about my uh garbage topic at the bottom of the list

01:57:45   the uh change of my change of opinion

01:57:48   You decide you love the Apple Watch

01:57:50   Yeah

01:57:51   Margo changes an opinion

01:57:54   I love how that's a bullet point

01:57:56   Yeah so

01:57:57   I think I like the iPad now

01:57:59   Oh god okay Mike

01:58:01   - You just sold the big pro.

01:58:03   I thought that was like you got two big pros

01:58:04   and you sold, or did you sell Tiff's

01:58:06   'cause she's using the small one now?

01:58:07   - So we got the big pro.

01:58:10   Tiff thought she might be interested in it

01:58:12   and it was her upgrade cycle for the iPad,

01:58:15   like her upgrade year, and she ended up

01:58:17   just not really liking it that much.

01:58:19   She loved the pencil support, but it was just so big

01:58:22   that she kept her regular size 10 inch iPad around also.

01:58:26   And having two iPads, if you're not mic or CGP gray,

01:58:29   is kind of, you know, it's burdensome

01:58:32   and a little bit wasteful in some ways,

01:58:34   so, you know, for most people.

01:58:36   So she decided, she said I could have the big pro

01:58:40   and we got her one of the new baby pros when it came out

01:58:44   'cause, you know, she wanted pencil support,

01:58:46   we wanted to consolidate, so Tiff got her new baby pro

01:58:48   and I got the big one.

01:58:50   And the big one I didn't have much to do with.

01:58:53   You know, it's like, this is not for me at all.

01:58:56   So since neither of us were using the big one, we sold it.

01:58:59   The Baby Pro though, one thing I noticed

01:59:01   during the brief time I spent with the big one,

01:59:03   and then I verified with the Baby Pro,

01:59:05   is that A, I do like pencil support occasionally.

01:59:08   Not all the time, but occasionally.

01:59:10   And B, I really like the speakers.

01:59:14   And I mean, when they first announced

01:59:16   the major upgrade to the speakers for the iPad Pro,

01:59:20   I thought, okay, who cares?

01:59:22   I guess they had all this space to give to something,

01:59:24   I guess shove better speakers in there, fine.

01:59:27   I didn't think it was a big deal.

01:59:28   When Amazon had their crap tablets a few years ago

01:59:32   and they were advertising how great their sound was,

01:59:34   I thought, not a big deal.

01:59:35   Who cares, it's sound in a tablet, who cares?

01:59:37   But as I mentioned before, I listen to a lot of podcasts

01:59:42   through the built-in speakers in my devices.

01:59:44   When, during the brief time that I had the giant iPad Pro,

01:59:48   I use it a lot to listen to overcast

01:59:51   in the kitchen and living room.

01:59:53   - This is a space-inefficient approach, by the way.

01:59:55   - I know.

01:59:57   So I use it a lot for that, and especially in the kitchen,

02:00:00   it was so good to be able to maybe have a recipe displayed

02:00:03   or something, but just to have that be so nice and loud

02:00:07   and clear with those speakers, it was so great to have that

02:00:11   as a kitchen and dining room speaker.

02:00:15   - Plus you could use it as a tray to carry food

02:00:17   into the table.

02:00:18   - Exactly, yeah, yeah.

02:00:20   I basically fell in love with the speakers of the iPad Pro.

02:00:23   Once the speakers were, once I was using it constantly

02:00:26   as speakers, well that also meant that solved another

02:00:28   problem I always have with iPads, which is they're never

02:00:30   where I wanted them to be.

02:00:32   Like they was like, oh, well I might use the iPad

02:00:34   on the couch right now, but it's upstairs,

02:00:36   'cause I was using it last night or whatever.

02:00:37   So it was always like not in the same room.

02:00:39   Well, I was using it every day in the kitchen,

02:00:42   so it was always there, it was always in the same spot.

02:00:44   It was always either, it was right next to a plug,

02:00:46   it was always either plugged in or had just been plugged in,

02:00:48   so it was always charged, always there.

02:00:51   I was using it frequently enough that it was always

02:00:53   like at hand. So I started using it more. I started using it like, you know, after we

02:00:58   cook and, you know, go and maybe go watch some TV before bed, I would bring that pet

02:01:02   over to the couch because it was nearby and browse the web and stuff on there instead

02:01:06   of on my phone. And, you know, it's obviously more pleasant when you have more screen space.

02:01:10   If you have one of these devices at hand, you generally want to use it. It's usually

02:01:13   better. So I started using it more because it was--my usage pattern had changed because

02:01:17   the speakers were so good that I would want to use it constantly for that purpose. So

02:01:22   So it was always around for other purposes.

02:01:24   But the big pro is way too big for that kind of use.

02:01:27   It's so big that the big pro I think is really good

02:01:33   if you're using it literally as an iPad Pro user.

02:01:37   If you're using it for major productivity use,

02:01:41   for major multitasking use,

02:01:42   use is where you really take advantage

02:01:45   of all that screen space.

02:01:46   Not just browsing Twitter and the web

02:01:49   when you're watching TV or trying to read

02:01:51   or something like that.

02:01:52   it's not great for that.

02:01:54   And so we decided to sell it, and Tiff got a Baby Pro,

02:01:58   and then I got a Baby Pro too.

02:02:00   And I sold all my other iPads, all the previous ones,

02:02:03   I don't need any of them anymore,

02:02:04   'cause I don't really, my app runs on the iPad,

02:02:07   but hardly anybody uses it there,

02:02:08   so I don't have to worry about,

02:02:10   what if I have a bug on the iPad 3?

02:02:12   No, that hasn't happened in years,

02:02:14   so I don't need to keep all these around.

02:02:16   Sold every other one, we both now have Baby Pros.

02:02:20   I've been using it every day.

02:02:22   I've been using it heavily.

02:02:24   And it's now been, I think, almost a month.

02:02:28   It's been a while.

02:02:29   So it's, I now, I'm using it more often, more per day,

02:02:34   and it has been longer since I bought it,

02:02:37   and I'm still using it,

02:02:38   than any previous iPad I've ever owned.

02:02:40   I think it's actually sticking now,

02:02:42   because it is kind of always at hand,

02:02:45   'cause I'm always using it for the sound,

02:02:46   I'm always using it for overcast.

02:02:48   So it's, because it's always around,

02:02:50   that has fixed the main problem I always have with it,

02:02:52   which is it's never where I want it to be,

02:02:53   so I just don't use it.

02:02:55   And so now I'm getting into things like,

02:02:56   oh, I wonder how much more I could do on it.

02:02:58   Obviously I'm not gonna be programming on it anytime soon,

02:03:01   but I could start answering some emails.

02:03:04   I'm getting a little bit better

02:03:05   at the iPad typing keyboard.

02:03:07   You know, I could kind of wait for the iPad

02:03:09   to do certain browsing tasks that are better on it.

02:03:12   Certain shopping tasks are better on it.

02:03:14   You know, it's like, I'm using it now.

02:03:16   What other iPad people like about it,

02:03:19   I'm starting to see some of these things.

02:03:21   Granted, I'm nowhere near the level of real iPad Pros

02:03:24   like Federico, but just getting a little taste of it,

02:03:28   it's really nice.

02:03:30   And I don't think I'm going to stop buying laptops

02:03:33   because I like laptops a lot, and when I need a laptop,

02:03:37   I really need a laptop.

02:03:38   But the iPad, the Baby Pro especially, is so good.

02:03:42   And I have my pencil loop on there.

02:03:44   I got the same one, Mike had a little stick-on loop.

02:03:47   So I always have the pencil.

02:03:49   I don't use the keyboard.

02:03:50   We have one for like plane trips,

02:03:52   but I don't leave it on 'cause it's too big and heavy.

02:03:55   So just like the regular Smart Cover

02:03:56   with the pencil always available,

02:03:58   it's just really nice and I get it.

02:04:02   Again, I don't know if this is gonna totally replace

02:04:04   my portable needs forever, but I get it now.

02:04:08   And I'm using it now on a regular basis.

02:04:11   - You know, it's funny you say that,

02:04:12   that the keyboard is only there for like plane trips

02:04:15   whatever because maybe a week or two ago I went into the Apple store and very

02:04:22   very briefly played with the Baby Pros keyboard and I am a devout iPad mini

02:04:28   user I really love my iPad mini I've had iPad minis for the last couple of cycles

02:04:33   now and I love the portability of them I think it's the right size for me but

02:04:39   after having tried that keyboard that was close enough to my beloved magic

02:04:45   keyboard that it felt pretty similar. I walked out of that Apple store thinking

02:04:50   to myself, "Maybe I could go full-size iPad again," which was weird because I

02:04:56   have not longed for a 10-inch iPad since I stopped buying them after the

02:05:03   iPad 3. But the keyboard was enough to make me think, "Maybe I do want to go back

02:05:08   there." I mean, not to say you're wrong or I'm right or vice versa, just it's

02:05:12   funny that each of us is having our own little thing to bring us back to the iPad or the

02:05:17   10-inch iPad.

02:05:18   Yeah, I mean, you know, for me it was the speakers and for you it could be the keyboard.

02:05:21   I mean, like I found the keyboard, the main problem with it is not the feel of the keys.

02:05:26   It's actually surprisingly not as crappy as I expected. It's not great but it's not as

02:05:30   bad as I expected. But the big problem for me is just the additional weight of the keyboard.

02:05:35   It makes the iPad substantially heavier to just carry around the house and, you know,

02:05:38   to just have around.

02:05:39   That's good to know because I didn't pick up this iPad and I really don't need another iPad right now

02:05:44   So any reason I can have I can have not to buy one sounds great. I

02:05:48   Never left the iPad glad that you're using it for all the things that everyone else using for us

02:05:53   And one thing you didn't mention you might want to try

02:05:54   Although it's kind of a shame you probably already played all these games is a lot of games that you played and enjoyed are even better

02:05:59   On the iPad like I remember when I was in my altos adventure phase. I

02:06:04   I alternated from playing on the phone and on the iPad, but eventually settled on, and

02:06:08   when I was going for a real serious high score run, the iPad was the place to be.

02:06:12   It just gives you much more room to do stuff and to see things without your fingers blocking

02:06:16   stuff and you can see the graphics better.

02:06:18   Even like, you know, games where, you know, where you just, there aren't reaction-based

02:06:22   games like, what do you call it, the isometric perspective thing with Ida.

02:06:31   Monument Valley?

02:06:32   Yeah, there you go.

02:06:33   I played that on the iPad too, but it just looks it looks better

02:06:35   So yeah, if there are any games you didn't play that everyone else played and thought was awesome

02:06:39   Try them on your iPad and any new games you try

02:06:42   Give them a try on your iPad before you try playing them on your phone because it's a really good game platform for those type

02:06:47   Of games. Yeah, I actually earlier today. I discovered that that new game

02:06:51   That the humans are there from the world of goo people where you like program. Wait, what? That's what is it called?

02:06:57   It's like human something like the human resource or something like that. Yeah human resource department thing

02:07:02   It's like a programming game no under marker like that. Oh is this the one that teaches you like assembly or something like that?

02:07:06   Yeah, it's called human research the tiles cut off so it's human resource something

02:07:11   Resource machine the chat room says there you go. Yeah, it's the world of goo people so I love roll ago

02:07:16   So I figured I loved world ago

02:07:18   I figured I'd give this a shot even though it's you know not the same kind of game at all

02:07:21   But I love their style and I figured I got so much enjoyment out of world of goo that giving them another five bucks

02:07:27   Even if I never even play this game is totally worth it speaking of do you own like every tokobah?

02:07:32   Boku game in existence?

02:07:33   - I don't know if I own every one of them,

02:07:36   but we certainly own many of them.

02:07:38   That is, you know, Adam's iPad is filled with

02:07:41   Tokaboka stuff, among other things.

02:07:43   Sago Mini is also a big one.

02:07:44   Sago Mini makes excellent children's games.

02:07:47   - Yeah, there was a profile of them

02:07:49   in the latest issue of Edge Magazine

02:07:51   talking about Tokaboka, and I was always impressed

02:07:53   with those in terms of they make so many of them

02:07:56   and you think, like, how can they have so many apps

02:07:58   and each one, our kids really enjoyed them

02:08:01   and got a lot of, my daughter still plays them

02:08:03   from time to time, even though she's probably

02:08:06   outgrown most of them now.

02:08:08   That's another good example of a whole class

02:08:11   and a whole line of games that was totally made for

02:08:14   and for touch and couldn't exist on other platforms.

02:08:17   And it's just a really good and of course,

02:08:19   better on the iPad than on the phone.

02:08:21   - Yeah.

02:08:22   - Well, I'm glad you've joined the iPad, the iPad age.

02:08:27   - Yep, you and Mike both.

02:08:29   John and I never left, but you and Mike

02:08:31   "Oh, the iPad sucks."

02:08:32   - You laughed when you went down to that little mini thing.

02:08:34   It's practically like a phone-sized thing.

02:08:36   I feel like you're leaving.

02:08:38   - Fine.

02:08:38   I remember I don't use a mutant humongous phone,

02:08:42   like Mike, speaking of.

02:08:43   But no, you and Mike were all poo-poo on the iPad,

02:08:47   and suddenly, look who's crawling back.

02:08:50   I'm feeling very smug about this.

02:08:52   - You know, the iPad Pro, the big Pro,

02:08:54   was interesting for people who were already into it

02:08:57   for the most part.

02:08:58   And it got some new people in,

02:08:59   but I think it was mostly like,

02:09:00   mostly appealed to people who were already into it.

02:09:02   But I think the Baby Pro is really like what,

02:09:06   there's basically no downsides to it at all,

02:09:09   unless you need more screen space.

02:09:10   - Two gigs of RAM. - Literally everything,

02:09:12   what?

02:09:13   The RAM, right? - Two gigs of RAM.

02:09:15   There's literally no, just think of how awesome that machine,

02:09:17   if that machine came with four gigs of RAM,

02:09:19   it would be unquestionably the best iPad Apple has ever,

02:09:22   it was such a perfect product.

02:09:24   Like no downsides, all upside amazing,

02:09:26   as it stands, the Baby Pro is practically all downsides,

02:09:30   no upsides, you know, whatever I just said.

02:09:33   Anyway, except for that one little thing.

02:09:34   So close, so close Apple.

02:09:36   - I mean, for whatever it's worth,

02:09:38   maybe I'm just not using it heavily enough.

02:09:40   The amount of RAM has not been a noticeable problem for me.

02:09:43   And it is so, so good in like every other way.

02:09:48   This is like a really solid release,

02:09:51   a really solid version of the iPad.

02:09:52   And it just, it has the keyboard, it has the pencil,

02:09:56   It has the amazing new screen and the color stuff.

02:09:58   And it's so, of course it's still very lightweight

02:10:02   and very easy to carry around and very fast.

02:10:05   I mean, it's just, it's so good.

02:10:07   I really think like, if there's any role

02:10:11   for an iPad in your life at all,

02:10:13   this is an amazing iPad to have.

02:10:16   It's just, it's so, so good.

02:10:17   - The little back case thing has even grown on me.

02:10:21   Remember I said I had like the back cover,

02:10:23   the silicone, whatever they call it,

02:10:25   and I didn't know if I was going to stick with it.

02:10:26   Now I'm pretty firmly in the camp that I like it.

02:10:29   I still don't like the little lip around the edge,

02:10:31   but I do still recognize the lip gives me

02:10:32   a little bit of extra grip because the border's too small,

02:10:35   but the grippiness on the back giving it more security

02:10:37   as I rested on the curved arm of my sofa and stuff

02:10:40   and the protection that it adds.

02:10:42   I think it probably helps that I went down

02:10:44   from the three to this, but I don't think

02:10:46   I'm taking that case off, I like it.

02:10:48   - Cool, yeah, and I'm very happy

02:10:51   with just having the Front Smart Cover

02:10:52   'cause it's very small and lightweight

02:10:54   and when I'm concerned about the surface on,

02:10:56   I just put it face down on the cover,

02:10:58   so it's not like, you know, scratching the back.

02:11:00   Easy.

02:11:01   - Oh, what is that loop thing?

02:11:02   You should send me a link to that,

02:11:03   'cause I've been looking for a way to,

02:11:04   when we go to W2C, if I'm gonna bring my pencil with me,

02:11:07   how am I going to attach it to something?

02:11:08   Sounds like you have a solution to that.

02:11:10   - It is the Lekkatorne 1917 Red Pen Loop.

02:11:15   Hold on, I'll give you the link.

02:11:18   Yeah, it's made to attach pens to notebooks,

02:11:22   but it works perfectly well on the iPad too.

02:11:23   Here we go.

02:11:24   You know, you stick it on and you can unstick it

02:11:26   really easily, you know, so don't worry about

02:11:28   like permanent sticking. - You stick it on.

02:11:31   What is this we're talking about here?

02:11:33   - How else are you going to attach anything to your iPad?

02:11:36   - I thought, what is it?

02:11:37   I see three of those, is this three separate ones?

02:11:39   It's a sticky pad with a little tube

02:11:42   that you shove the pen through.

02:11:43   I would expect this for Mike with his stickers

02:11:45   all over the thing, but you,

02:11:46   you're sticking things to your iPad?

02:11:48   - No, I mean, normally I wouldn't stick anything

02:11:50   to any of my things 'cause I hate being sticky

02:11:51   and I hate having things stuck to my things,

02:11:53   But this provides such a good utility

02:11:56   that it is really worth it.

02:11:58   - I'm gonna reject this.

02:12:01   - That's fine, you can reject it.

02:12:03   I will enjoy my always available Apple Pencil.

02:12:05   I also did a thing where I replaced the back cap

02:12:10   of the pencil with the lightning cable adapter to charge it.

02:12:14   Like I just keep that on there all the time,

02:12:17   which is great.

02:12:18   Like I put the cap in the box.

02:12:20   - Does that come with it?

02:12:21   Does that adapter, I think--

02:12:22   - I think it's still in the box there.

02:12:23   I could fish that out, but I should look at it.

02:12:25   - Yeah, the one that just has a lighting hole on two sides.

02:12:28   Now my pencil can always be charged

02:12:30   via a nearby lightning cable.

02:12:32   And for the very rare case where I would want to charge it

02:12:35   from the lightning port on the iPad,

02:12:36   then I can take this quote cap off

02:12:39   and put it in there for a minute.

02:12:40   But it's way more common that I charge it with a cable.

02:12:43   So it makes sense to do that cap swap thing.

02:12:46   So then it's just always in that mode by default.

02:12:49   And you always have that with you.

02:12:51   you always have that adapter with you.

02:12:52   I wish they would just ship it that way,

02:12:54   but I understand why they don't.

02:12:55   'Cause Johnny Ive is just,

02:12:58   it's too perfect the other way,

02:13:00   even though it doesn't work as well.

02:13:02   (beep)