171: WWDC Is Not Santa Claus


00:00:00   Egg salad is not delicious.

00:00:02   Salt and mayonnaise are delicious.

00:00:04   That's what you're tasting.

00:00:04   Egg salad is not delicious.

00:00:06   - Egg salad is awesome, what are you talking about?

00:00:07   - Egg salad's good.

00:00:08   - Egg salad's fine, but it's not delicious.

00:00:10   I wouldn't, I'm not gonna rave about it.

00:00:12   That's ridiculous.

00:00:13   - I wouldn't say it's delicious, but it's quite good.

00:00:14   - Right, exactly, yeah, it's not delicious, see?

00:00:16   - I went through several containers

00:00:18   of your actual chicken salad, which is good.

00:00:20   It's good chicken salad, but I also had egg salad

00:00:23   to compare it with, and when it came time,

00:00:24   like, you can tell, you know, like,

00:00:26   if you feel like you don't have a preference,

00:00:27   you can go either way, depends on what I'm in the mood for.

00:00:29   when it came time to pick, I was kind of leaning towards the egg salad a lot.

00:00:31   It's the yolks, man. That's what does it. It's the yolks.

00:00:34   We should talk about t-shirts.

00:00:38   All right.

00:00:39   Yeah. So, uh, it was late breaking news, uh, after we had recorded that we were

00:00:44   able to get everything squared away, um, between ourselves with cotton Bureau,

00:00:49   who, um, who have been excellent so far. So many things to Jay and team at cotton

00:00:52   Bureau. Um, we have two shirts up for sale in case you haven't heard or haven't

00:00:57   looked. One of them, which we kind of call "Watches," is inspired by Ricardo Melo's tweet,

00:01:06   and then Jay designed it as pixel art. As everyone expected, John has thoughts about this pixel art,

00:01:13   but it's the three of us with our respective choices of wristwear. And then the other one

00:01:19   is just kind of our logo shirt, which is a kind of combination of our automotive heritage and

00:01:25   our current, our automotive and current and Macintosh heritage for those of us who are

00:01:32   around in the Six Colors days, which is basically just John. So they'll be up for sale until what,

00:01:37   3rd of June, I believe? So as this episode is released, probably about another week.

00:01:43   Don't delay, don't forget. I cannot tell you how many people have said after the last round of

00:01:48   shirts went up, "Oh yeah, I just never pulled the trigger on ordering it. I just forgot."

00:01:54   And so can you make them again? No, we can't. So pull the trigger as you're thinking of it,

00:02:00   get yourselves a shirt if you want. I am really happy with this year's shirts, especially since

00:02:05   up until like a week and a half before they went up for sale, we had no freaking clue what to do

00:02:10   for shirts. So I'm really happy with them and you should buy one to support the show. So thanks,

00:02:15   everyone who has bought one and everyone who will buy one. Yep, thank you. So far we haven't repeated

00:02:20   any shirts. So again, the same thing. Like, I don't know, maybe from this year on we'll

00:02:26   just repeat the same shirts over and over again. But so far we haven't repeated any.

00:02:29   So if you like one of these shirts, don't assume I'll just buy it next year because

00:02:32   it might not be the next year. Or it might. But anyway, same thing with hypercritical

00:02:36   shirts that I sold just once and I still get people tweeting me to this day, years later,

00:02:40   like "Oh, I missed out buying those shirts." And make no mistake, these are expensive t-shirts.

00:02:46   Especially if you're shipping them far away.

00:02:49   All podcast t-shirts are expensive.

00:02:50   I know.

00:02:51   I have literally boxes in the attic filled with podcast and website t-shirts.

00:02:58   But they're cool to have.

00:03:00   And in the grand scheme of things, they're actually pretty rare because who listens to

00:03:03   weird tech nerd podcasts and then who buys a t-shirt for a tech nerd podcast?

00:03:07   Not a lot of people.

00:03:08   So it's kind of a shame we didn't make it for WODC, but I think they're fun shirts.

00:03:12   And I had a question for you guys, but I haven't talked about this on Twitter.

00:03:17   No one, I believe, has spelled out the visual metaphor of the ATP logo shirt.

00:03:23   And I've been hesitant to do so because I feel like explaining it kind of makes it

00:03:28   worse.

00:03:29   But maybe I'm wrong.

00:03:30   Maybe people would be more excited about the shirt if they understood what we were going

00:03:33   for.

00:03:34   So would you like to explain?

00:03:35   Yeah.

00:03:36   It's a pretty obvious connection if you're in the right mindset.

00:03:38   But if you're not thinking that way, it might not occur to you.

00:03:40   And of course, if you don't know anything about cars and you don't care, then explaining

00:03:43   to someone who doesn't know anything about cars, it's pointless because they don't

00:03:46   there, right? So I guess we're not explaining it then?

00:03:49   No, feel free. Okay, well since I am the only current…

00:03:52   Chief Summarizer in chief. Yeah, exactly. So since I am the only current

00:03:55   BMW owner, this is a play on the BMW M symbol, which we'll put a link to that in the show

00:04:03   notes. Basically, BMW M is their motorsports group, and so Marco's M5, which we've

00:04:09   talked about ad nauseam on the show, and certainly was kind of the driving arc behind neutral.

00:04:15   The way that logo looks is it's three colors and there's a story behind them.

00:04:20   I think one was Bavaria, one was Texaco, which had a deal with BMW at the time that M was

00:04:26   created, and one was just like a purple to kind of blend the two.

00:04:30   So Jay at Cotton Bureau, completely on his own accord, like with zero input from us,

00:04:35   thought, "Oh, well I can take the six colors from the original Mac and then do a kind of

00:04:42   of stylized ATP and kind of blend our automotive history coming out of neutral and get that

00:04:49   like old school Mac flair going and get kind of a mashup of the both.

00:04:54   You keep saying Mac like those PC users who say, "Do you like Mac computers? Is Mac making

00:05:00   an iPod now?"

00:05:01   In all capitals.

00:05:02   "Have you been to the Mac store?"

00:05:03   In all capitals.

00:05:04   I heard Mac makes phones now.

00:05:05   I am sorry to offend you old man. What was the appropriate poem?

00:05:08   the apple logo it's a rainbow striped apple logo it's a logo they had for like the first

00:05:13   you know 15 or whatever years of the company's existence fair enough i i regret the error thank

00:05:18   you and god i'm gonna get so many emails no i saved you from the emails now they feel like it's

00:05:22   been addressed um my apologies for that but anyway the point being that it's a combination

00:05:27   of the original apple logo and the bmwm logo or inspired it's not the original apple logo i'm

00:05:33   I'm saving you again.

00:05:34   The original Apple logo was that pen and ink drawing of the guy under the tree.

00:05:41   It's like a coat of arms.

00:05:43   Some emails.

00:05:44   No, it's not a coat of arms.

00:05:46   Anyway, Apple was selling t-shirts with the original Apple logo on them, along with the

00:05:51   rainbow striped Apple logo and a bunch of icons and other stuff on their 40th anniversary.

00:05:56   I tried to get some.

00:05:57   I tried to have my minions in Cupertino buy them from the Apple store at Infinite Loop,

00:06:02   but they were too late.

00:06:03   out.

00:06:04   Jared Ranerelle Actually, if we have minions there, I need

00:06:06   somebody to get me some pens for TIFF, but yeah, let me know.

00:06:08   John

00:06:33   shirts this year.

00:06:34   There are other t-shirt vendors that people use and

00:06:37   that we have used that have overseas presses or printing or

00:06:41   whatever you call it.

00:06:43   We wanted to go a different route this year and try

00:06:46   something different.

00:06:47   And I really, really, really appreciate anyone from Europe

00:06:52   or Asia or really anywhere other than North America that

00:06:55   has bought one of these shirts, because I know shipping

00:06:57   is just out of control.

00:06:59   And I am sorry for that.

00:07:00   But look at it this way.

00:07:01   These shirts, I am super proud of them, and if it wasn't for Jay at Cotton Bureau, they

00:07:06   would not look anywhere near as good.

00:07:09   You should see the illustration Marco sent as a, like...

00:07:13   You should save that as a great example of patent hands.

00:07:17   Yeah, really.

00:07:19   Just as an example of what we gave Jay with regard to the three hands or three wrists

00:07:25   shirt.

00:07:26   It's really bad.

00:07:27   I mean, I wouldn't, I would have done worse.

00:07:28   I'm not trying to, like, throw stones.

00:07:30   I would have done a much worse job, but that illustration with respect Marco was pretty freakin bad and Jay made it

00:07:35   Yeah, because because the best the best part about it is that he meticulously drew I'm assuming on the iPad

00:07:40   Yeah, bro with like the pencil. He meticulously drew his watch cuz like that's what he cares about

00:07:45   Hands misshapen mutant paddles. It's like hands hands. Whatever. I can't draw well you spent so long in that watch

00:07:54   I get to see you like zooming in and carefully drawing the hands trying to draw your beautiful little Swiss

00:07:58   whatever the hell watch it is, and then the hands are just a mess.

00:08:01   First of all, that is not an exact representation of any of my watches, and I didn't take that

00:08:06   long to draw.

00:08:07   Well, it took longer than you took to draw the "hands."

00:08:11   Well, yeah.

00:08:14   So suffice it to say, look in the show notes, you can see Marco's original illustration

00:08:18   to Jay, and we never told him pixel art or anything, he just took that upon himself and

00:08:23   did a just killer job with it.

00:08:26   So again, just to bring this back around and try to redeem myself as summarizer and chief,

00:08:31   we are very sorry about the shipping costs.

00:08:33   We really, truly are.

00:08:34   And we are super appreciative of anyone to buy shirts, but particularly those overseas,

00:08:38   because I know it is a big ask.

00:08:40   And we really thank you.

00:08:43   And hopefully if we do shirts again next year, we'll have some different mechanism for doing

00:08:47   this, but no guarantees.

00:08:49   We'll see how it goes.

00:08:51   Moving right along, we should probably do some follow-up.

00:08:53   up. Clace Jacobson, I'm so sorry, had written in, I don't know if this was via Twitter or

00:09:00   an email, but they said, "After submitting a burst of 20 installs" — this is submitting

00:09:06   an iOS app — "a burst of 20 installs from California occurs. This has happened recently,

00:09:11   but did not happen between October and February." So perhaps there's some sort of automated

00:09:16   testing going on when you submit to the App Store, more than just like the checking for

00:09:20   private APIs and things like that.

00:09:22   more recent or more rigorous or perhaps more timely automated testing.

00:09:28   That's another theory that's not in the follow-up here that I heard a lot is that a lot of people

00:09:32   under the impression, I'm not sure if it's founded or not, that the delays in review,

00:09:37   like in the olden days, several months ago, you'd submit an application and it would take

00:09:41   like a week or whatever to get through the review process.

00:09:44   And a lot of people think that's because Apple intentionally doesn't look at your application

00:09:49   for a long time as a form of training to make you think twice before you submit.

00:09:55   Don't waste our time submitting your application

00:09:57   if you're not super duper sure that it's ready to go up.

00:10:00   And to teach you that lesson, no matter when you submit,

00:10:03   we're just going to sit on it and do nothing.

00:10:04   Even if we don't have anything else to do, even if we have the capacity,

00:10:06   we're just going to intentionally ignore your app for a week

00:10:09   just to teach you a lesson to say,

00:10:11   "See, it's always going to take at least a week, so don't submit in haste.

00:10:14   Always, you know, make sure your I's are dotted and your T's are crossed."

00:10:18   That doesn't sound like something that makes sense to me

00:10:21   for Apple as a business to do.

00:10:23   Maybe, again, I don't know if these reports

00:10:27   were based on inside information or testing or theories

00:10:30   or whatever, or it was just a feeling they get,

00:10:32   but that doesn't strike me as something that reasonable.

00:10:36   Maybe if there was something like that,

00:10:37   it would be like, we don't bother looking at your application

00:10:40   for the first four hours to give you a chance

00:10:42   to think better of it if you accidentally submit it,

00:10:44   but I can't imagine them sitting on it

00:10:46   not doing anything for a week.

00:10:47   So I'm still thinking that the decreased review times have to be the result of something

00:10:55   that Apple is intentionally doing because they want the review times to be shorter,

00:10:58   not longer.

00:10:59   Well, I mean, there was—so this past week on the talk show, Rene Ritchie was the guest

00:11:04   with John Gruber.

00:11:05   And Rene, they were talking about this, and you could kind of tell that Rene has information

00:11:11   about this that he has heard.

00:11:13   in the best Renee way, he basically suggests

00:11:17   what the information is generally,

00:11:19   what category it is, but doesn't actually tell you

00:11:23   anything that would get him or anybody else in trouble,

00:11:24   but it basically sounds like there was a significant

00:11:28   management change in App Review,

00:11:31   in some kind of, and this wasn't Phil

00:11:34   taking over the App Store, I mean,

00:11:35   it might have been related to that in some way,

00:11:37   but it wasn't that change, but it was some other change

00:11:41   happened further down the line in App Review that basically got some people out of the

00:11:47   way who would cause holdups. And that is apparently, and seeing some policies, and that is apparently

00:11:54   what the result of this was if you read between the very, very obvious lines that Rene drew

00:11:58   on the talk show last week. So that I think is very interesting. Also, I agree with what

00:12:03   you said, John. I don't think they were ever like artificially delaying things necessarily

00:12:08   to a week because if they were, you would have never seen a review time less than a

00:12:12   week and that wasn't true. If you would look at the history on that Shiny development site

00:12:18   that was collecting all the stats from everybody, it fluctuated and sometimes it would go down

00:12:27   to like six days, five days and then go back up. I think what instead was the case was

00:12:34   We know that Apple is very performance metric driven

00:12:37   these days, especially in the middle management levels.

00:12:40   So I think they had just defined the performance metric

00:12:43   to be 90% or more, or 95, whatever the percentage is,

00:12:47   we want X percent of apps to be reviewed within a week.

00:12:50   And we consider that success, so that whenever

00:12:52   they would start getting way above that,

00:12:54   and that number would start suffering,

00:12:56   maybe they would add more staff,

00:12:58   or maybe they would make changes

00:12:59   to get that number back down.

00:13:01   But it seemed like they considered that good enough

00:13:03   for all this time.

00:13:04   And so a combination of maybe changing that opinion,

00:13:07   maybe changing that metric to something lower,

00:13:09   as well as whatever this management change was

00:13:12   that happened, that I think is very plausibly

00:13:16   what went on here to cause app review times

00:13:18   to drop from a week to less than a day.

00:13:21   - It doesn't have to be like a week specifically,

00:13:23   just the idea that there's excess capacity,

00:13:26   that Apple could review your application,

00:13:28   but instead, let's either decrease staffing

00:13:30   or send people home early, or like,

00:13:33   they're intentionally, like the delay is actually

00:13:35   part of their policy with an intent.

00:13:37   That's the theory, that Apple always could do this,

00:13:40   but they were intentionally not doing it.

00:13:42   That's slightly different than they had a metric

00:13:44   that meant people got to go home without staying

00:13:46   for overtime as long as they hit X percent,

00:13:48   because I can imagine Apple being what it is,

00:13:50   they probably staff so that the people had to work

00:13:52   really, really hard to hit whatever the numbers were.

00:13:55   They're not like overstaffing and then giving them

00:13:56   a low goal and letting the people go home at three every day

00:13:58   like that's not the way it's working.

00:14:00   - Right, also the idea of automated app review

00:14:03   or adding another automated step of app review

00:14:08   before it gets to the humans.

00:14:09   That I think has a lot of merit.

00:14:11   It's not an easy problem to solve,

00:14:12   but if you can have some kind of automation

00:14:15   that basically just tries to push a bunch of buttons

00:14:18   in an app, Apple has said on a number of occasions

00:14:21   that the most common cause of app rejections

00:14:25   is that the app crashes during review.

00:14:27   So if they can automate a process

00:14:29   where they just bring up an end of the app

00:14:32   and just push some buttons and attempt to,

00:14:34   in an automated way, basically guess how to use the app

00:14:37   and just navigate to different screens.

00:14:39   If they can cause a crash to happen during that,

00:14:42   it never even has to get to a human.

00:14:44   It can be rejected right then,

00:14:45   go right back to the developer and say,

00:14:46   all right, this failed, here, try again.

00:14:49   And that could also result in a major time savings

00:14:52   for the humans and therefore better throughput

00:14:54   for the apps that get through that test.

00:14:57   - Cool.

00:14:58   So Drew Hanae wrote in, they said, among other things,

00:15:02   it's always been pretty complicated to understand

00:15:04   what exactly swiping an app out of recents

00:15:07   actually does under the hood.

00:15:09   Was this with regard to Android, actually?

00:15:11   - It was on Android, 'cause we were asked last week

00:15:12   about the Clear All button, like wouldn't it be fun

00:15:14   to clear all, just got rid of the pictures on your screen,

00:15:16   but did nothing to the processes.

00:15:17   - We are now the premier Android podcast, by the way.

00:15:20   - Sorry, Material.

00:15:22   So anyway, so they said it's always been pretty complicated

00:15:24   to understand what exactly swiping an app

00:15:25   out of the recents actually does under the hood.

00:15:28   One important distinction on Android is that the thing that

00:15:30   shows up in your recent screen isn't actually an app, it's a task.

00:15:34   And remember on Android, an app can have multiple tasks and recents at the same time, like having

00:15:39   multiple Google Docs open at once.

00:15:41   When you swipe away an app, it finishes the task, which tells the app that the user is

00:15:45   done with that workflow and it doesn't need to worry about restoring that UI state.

00:15:49   If the app is doing background work or has other open tasks, its process would not be

00:15:53   killed.

00:15:54   If there's no more open tasks or background jobs, swiping away an app will let the system

00:15:58   know it is the option of killing the process, but it doesn't guarantee that it will.

00:16:01   So the clear all button shouldn't have a dramatic effect on system performance on Android since it usually won't mean that all that processes

00:16:08   are killed, but it does have the downside of losing any user state from their open tasks.

00:16:12   That's very interesting to me that the way Android works because I didn't know most of that. And it was also interesting to me

00:16:19   how many

00:16:20   people who seem to claim or seem to view themselves as you know nerds nerds

00:16:26   tweeted about how, oh yeah, I do that too, and I'm sorry, Jon, which I thought was quite funny.

00:16:33   The only feedback that I saw that I thought was very interesting was people who said they wanted

00:16:37   to clear it out, not for like battery, not for memory or anything like that, but just because

00:16:42   they didn't want that view, that drawer, if you will, to have a bunch of things in it. They just

00:16:47   wanted it to be clean, so they didn't have clutter there, which still to me seems a little bit

00:16:53   peculiar but makes a lot more sense than thinking oh this is gonna save my

00:16:57   battery or prevent something weird from happening. Well if they changed the iOS

00:17:01   policy it'd be more like Android. Like an Android when you're when you're clearing

00:17:04   these things it's explicitly not killing your application. Like if your

00:17:07   application is running background jobs it lets them keep running right and it

00:17:10   just gives it the all it's basically saying is when I relaunch that don't

00:17:14   bring you back to exactly where I was. Which is still kind of punitive because

00:17:17   it like you're punishing people for like I don't like the visual clutter so I

00:17:21   I want to get the rectangles away, right?

00:17:23   And there is a punishment for that,

00:17:25   which is next time you launch that application,

00:17:26   they won't remember where you left off.

00:17:28   It will, you know,

00:17:28   just bring it back to a fresh state or whatever.

00:17:32   It would be nice if all these operating systems,

00:17:34   I guess maybe either took this feature away entirely,

00:17:37   in which case, like you just deal with the clutter,

00:17:39   or gave people a way to like, like the new Android N,

00:17:43   like, I don't know if it's hard coded to seven

00:17:45   or if you can adjust it, but only show a certain number,

00:17:47   so it never gets more cluttered than some small amount,

00:17:50   you know, or just make it get rid of the pictures and do nothing else.

00:17:55   And as Drew said, there is still of course an Android way to actually force quit to kill

00:17:59   things.

00:18:00   It's more deeply buried, but it's there.

00:18:02   And as many people pointed out to us on iOS, there is another way to force quit applications

00:18:06   besides flicking them up.

00:18:07   You can also do the hold down the power button thing, but instead of swiping to turn off

00:18:10   the phone, you hold down the home button.

00:18:12   Or anyway, there are lots of ways to force quit things.

00:18:16   the flicking up of the squares half of it is the force quitting habit and the the voodoo and

00:18:21   Superstition about that and the other half is just people like things to be neat and tidy and both of those things have I feel

00:18:27   like detrimental effects on the

00:18:29   Experience of using the phone probably I would say more detrimental than the mental distress caused by having lots of rectangles

00:18:35   But I guess that's up to each person to decide on their own

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00:20:24   (upbeat music)

00:20:27   - So there's been rumors about new MacBook Pros.

00:20:32   They're coming eventually.

00:20:34   - First of all, if you go back to the original article,

00:20:38   I believe it clarifies that it's Q4

00:20:41   of Apple's financial calendar that they are coming,

00:20:43   which is July.

00:20:45   - Oh, okay.

00:20:45   - So the rumor is that in quote Q4 of this year,

00:20:50   which everyone interprets to mean October through December,

00:20:55   Apple will be releasing new MacBook Pros

00:20:57   that are substantially redesigned

00:21:00   so that they're gonna be thinner, they're gonna be lighter,

00:21:01   they're gonna have the new Skylake CPUs,

00:21:04   and they're gonna have a few other interesting changes

00:21:07   we will talk about in a second. So before you before you move on, how confident are

00:21:12   you about this whole Q4 confusion? Because when I read this article, my my overwhelming

00:21:16   sense of sadness was like, Q4? Seriously? How long have we been waiting for the MacBook

00:21:21   Pro to get updated? And now I have to wait until like the end of the year, like the fall

00:21:26   and winter time. And then you telling me, oh, no, Q4 is not that it's a financial Q4,

00:21:30   which is different. It makes me feel better. But how sure are you about that? Because I

00:21:33   have to know how to feel before you move on to what these computers are going to be like.

00:21:38   I'm just repeating what other people said, so maybe I'm not so sure.

00:21:41   I don't know.

00:21:42   Now I'm doubting everything.

00:21:43   Anyway, all I can say is that if people can't get one of these things in their hands until

00:21:49   the end of the year, that seems bad.

00:21:53   You can blame Intel for a certain amount of the delay, but really?

00:21:57   We can't get new MacBook Pros until the end of 2016?

00:22:00   if I had told you at the end of 2014

00:22:03   that there's not gonna be new MacBook Pros

00:22:05   until the end of 2016, yeah, I don't like it.

00:22:08   - Well, especially, I think it's made worse

00:22:10   because of the fact that there was such this long delay

00:22:13   with Intel's CPUs here that they're currently shipping

00:22:18   basically three-year-old CPUs.

00:22:20   Like the guts of the MacBook Pro that you buy today,

00:22:23   there was like the one minor update in mid-2015,

00:22:26   but it was a very minor update.

00:22:28   It changed almost nothing about them.

00:22:30   And so basically you're buying

00:22:32   like two to three year old hardware today.

00:22:35   - That's the curse of the Pro label, right?

00:22:37   As soon as you put Pro on it,

00:22:38   the CPU ages to be three years old in the market.

00:22:41   I think that's the new rule.

00:22:41   (laughing)

00:22:42   - Yeah, which is, I mean like,

00:22:44   cosmetics aside, I mean, you know,

00:22:45   we can talk about cosmetics in a minute,

00:22:46   but like, just the fact that Apple continues to sell

00:22:50   really pretty ancient hardware by computing standards

00:22:53   for so long now, you know, we talked about it before,

00:22:55   like I know why some of these things are this way.

00:22:58   I know that they generally wait until there's like

00:23:01   a substantial CPU update from Intel

00:23:05   and that those have been delayed in recent years,

00:23:07   but that has to change because I know they do care,

00:23:12   but when they let the hardware age for this long

00:23:15   still at the top of the line,

00:23:16   it looks like they don't care anymore about it.

00:23:18   And again, I know they do care,

00:23:20   but this is how it looks to buyers.

00:23:22   This is how it looks in the market.

00:23:23   It looks like Apple is just ignoring the Mac

00:23:25   and letting these things languish.

00:23:27   - Eh, I don't know if that's true.

00:23:29   - It looks that way to nerds, to tech nerds.

00:23:31   Other people don't even know what the heck is in them.

00:23:33   But, I mean, we're a tech nerd podcast.

00:23:35   - No, people do, people do research, you know?

00:23:37   You gotta give people credit.

00:23:39   They do their research, and when people are looking

00:23:41   to buy an Apple computer, they go online and they look,

00:23:44   and they find things like the MacRumors Buying Guide

00:23:46   that says, like, all this stuff is three years old.

00:23:47   Like, people do their research, they find stuff out.

00:23:50   They know.

00:23:52   - Anybody who finds the MacRumors Buying Guide

00:23:54   is pretty far over into the computer nerd thing.

00:23:56   It's a factor. I'm just saying like there is there is a whole other section of the population that never looks at that stuff

00:24:01   But in the grand scheme of things even if they don't know they're still even if you don't know or care about the age of

00:24:06   The CPU you are still affected by it because it essentially affects the useful lifetime of your computer because it is a three-year-old CPU

00:24:12   Whether you know it or not and so three years later

00:24:15   You're using a six-year-old CPU whereas if Apple kept up to date you would have more life left in your laptop

00:24:19   and

00:24:21   It's not as bad as spinning disk versus SSD where you're you know you sort of prematurely aged when you realize that everyone else

00:24:27   Has SSDs, but you know maybe you can upgrade yours or whatever

00:24:30   CPUs don't age your laptop as bad as other things

00:24:33   But it's all cumulative and basically what we're what we're doing is here as people knowledgeable about

00:24:38   you know the platform and the products is we're judging the products how good a product is this and

00:24:43   You can't judge it to be a particularly stellar product if the innards are really old and out of date

00:24:50   And as time marches on and competitor products get better innards for usually less or the

00:24:56   same money, you have to judge Apple's products more harshly.

00:25:00   And as other people might ask about computers, who might say, "Now is not a good time to

00:25:05   buy the MacBook Pros because we think they're going to be updated soon."

00:25:08   But if we've been saying that for two years, at a certain point we're like, "I don't know

00:25:12   if it's bad advice or good advice."

00:25:13   We're trying to kind of predict the future of like, you know, should you buy this or

00:25:16   should you not?

00:25:17   once it's a three-year-old CPU, even if new Mac approach didn't come out for

00:25:21   another year, you can't really in good conscience tell people you should buy

00:25:27   this computer because it's a great product. You could say you should buy this

00:25:29   computer because it basically it's your only choice if you want a Mac laptop.

00:25:31   Like you know, these are the laptops they sell and a whole bunch of them are

00:25:34   better and compromised in a bunch of reasons, but if you need a laptop now

00:25:37   you got to get one. But I can honestly say that this is not actually a stellar

00:25:40   product, unlike say the 5k iMac which came out of the gate and was you know

00:25:44   good in all the ways we expected it to be good, right?

00:25:48   - Oh yeah, I mean like the 5K iMac has been fantastic.

00:25:51   And that has, like that is, you know,

00:25:53   it originally came out a year and a half ago,

00:25:55   and then six months ago they made the updated version,

00:25:57   and it's a fantastic computer.

00:25:59   It has new up-to-date components.

00:26:02   It was updated one year after it came out

00:26:04   with even newer, even more up-to-date components.

00:26:06   Like that is a healthy release cycle.

00:26:08   - Yeah, you know, with regard to the date,

00:26:10   something to consider is,

00:26:12   And we're gonna get to some interesting new hardware tidbits

00:26:16   in a second, but what if one of those hardware tidbits

00:26:19   requires a major release of OS X,

00:26:21   and that doesn't typically ship until the fall?

00:26:25   So maybe it is the fall, because they need the software,

00:26:29   and I know they'll do like a point release ahead

00:26:32   for a lot of things, but I can't--

00:26:33   - I don't think today's Apple is delaying hardware

00:26:35   for software, except-- - Oh, absolutely they are.

00:26:38   - Except for new devices like the watch,

00:26:40   I know you're gonna say the watch,

00:26:41   for laptops, I'm saying, even if they have a weird screen

00:26:45   above the keyboard that we'll get to in a minute,

00:26:47   they'll just work that into the old OS

00:26:50   if they needed to ship them.

00:26:51   They've done that so many times where some boring old Mac

00:26:55   is ready to ship, but they would ship it with the new OS,

00:26:58   but it's not available with it, so they'll end up shipping it.

00:27:01   They usually do it with OS versions.

00:27:02   They'd end up shipping it with Tiger,

00:27:07   even though the leper was about to come out.

00:27:09   And then people would get it.

00:27:10   by the time they'd get it in the store,

00:27:12   it would still have the old OS with it,

00:27:13   and then you'd get it, and they would upgrade you

00:27:15   for free or whatever.

00:27:16   I don't think, especially with OS X,

00:27:18   I don't think that's why they would be holding back

00:27:20   this hardware to wait for the software.

00:27:22   Unless there's some amazing new feature.

00:27:23   - No, but here's this scenario here.

00:27:25   All right, so the new laptop, suppose it has touch ID,

00:27:29   like this report says, and everyone says

00:27:32   there's gonna be Siri in new OS X.

00:27:34   So suppose it has a touch ID button or surface

00:27:37   or circle or something, maybe the power button, who knows?

00:27:39   Somewhere there's a Touch ID thing there, right?

00:27:42   And then also somewhere on the keyboard in the F in row,

00:27:45   which we'll get to in a minute,

00:27:46   in the F in row, maybe there's a Siri button,

00:27:48   there is no OS X version until the fall

00:27:52   that will support those things in all likelihood.

00:27:55   The OS X version that comes out in the fall,

00:27:58   they can't bring those things forward,

00:27:59   or they won't bring those things forward,

00:28:01   they don't feel like bringing those things forward

00:28:02   to be released earlier,

00:28:03   because the OS X version in the fall

00:28:05   also has stuff that integrates with the iOS version

00:28:08   that's coming in the fall,

00:28:09   and the iOS version coming in the fall is tied to the iPhone hardware schedule, and

00:28:12   the entire company is dictated by the iPhone hardware schedule.

00:28:15   Yeah, that seems plausible. I forgot about the Touch ID thing, but the Secure Enclave

00:28:19   is the other thing, like assuming there's a Touch ID thing that's probably a Secure

00:28:23   Enclave thing, and that's, yeah. The screen, I say no, because the screen you can write

00:28:27   a driver for in any OS, but the Touch ID and the security stuff, yeah. All right, well,

00:28:33   that's crappy, but that's life. So that's it.

00:28:36   So we've bounced off the outer atmosphere of the changes here, but we should probably

00:28:41   talk about it.

00:28:42   So it's going to be really Q4 probably.

00:28:44   It's probably going to be like September, October.

00:28:46   Okay.

00:28:47   Fair enough.

00:28:48   So there's apparently going to be a replaced f in row where all the f1, f2, f3, etc. keys

00:28:56   are now little mini OLED displays.

00:28:58   I'm not sure what to make of that.

00:29:00   I feel like there was a keyboard that, like in the pre-Kickstarter days, but it was a

00:29:05   Kickstarter kind of project where there was a keyboard that they wanted like the

00:29:09   entire keyboard to have little mini displays on each key and the theory was

00:29:13   which made a lot of sense to me it was the optimus keyboard was it okay by the

00:29:18   art libid of studio yes yes that's right you're absolutely right did that ever

00:29:23   ship yeah it was delayed for like years I think and it ended up being very

00:29:27   expensive but I think it did in fact ship and now now there's like now like a

00:29:31   a bunch of keyboards now do the exact same thing

00:29:33   since then.

00:29:34   - Yeah, so the idea being that all of these

00:29:37   different displays can be reprogrammed.

00:29:38   So think of sort of kind of having all the benefits

00:29:43   of a keyboard on screen, like on a phone or tablet,

00:29:47   but it's still a physical keyboard,

00:29:49   but you can reprogram what the keys show

00:29:51   and potentially what they do.

00:29:53   And so I can see maybe you have,

00:29:56   like on the current keyboards, the F, what is this,

00:30:00   F8 key is play/pause. Well, maybe it's play/pause in Finder or by default, but maybe in other apps

00:30:07   it does other things and it shows you right on the key like a little logo or

00:30:12   maybe even a logo in the words as to what it does. So I can see this being neat,

00:30:17   but I also am not sure that this is something I really need, but I'm anxious to see what they're going to do with it.

00:30:25   What do you guys think? Marco, you have tweeted about this and don't sound too enthusiastic. Is that fair to say?

00:30:30   say? Well, so the initial reporting of this rumor had it as the F and key row would disappear.

00:30:38   Like the keys would no longer be there. It would just be one screen, not keys with screens

00:30:42   on them, right? Exactly. That's the initial rumor was that it would be one long strip

00:30:47   of OLED screen and it would be touch sensitive and so you would just like push it like it's

00:30:53   a skinny iPad screen basically. If this thing is real and if that ends up being the way

00:30:59   it's done, I don't like that very much, at least on principle. We'll see, you know, if

00:31:04   they actually do something like that, we'll see how it turns out. I could change my mind,

00:31:08   but I, and there was a good discussion about that particular rumor on Clockwise this week,

00:31:13   today actually. So that I think, like, not having physical buttons to push there on this

00:31:20   keyboard that you're probably not looking at, like, yeah, the keys in the F in a row

00:31:26   are not that frequently pushed by most people.

00:31:28   But for the people who do frequently push them,

00:31:31   and the F&R includes some pretty important keys

00:31:33   like escape, which is like your shortcut

00:31:35   to cancel dialog boxes, which is kind of frequently hit,

00:31:38   also frequently hit if you're a Vim user,

00:31:41   among other things, a lot of programmers

00:31:43   use it for code completion, so like,

00:31:45   there are, and as you said, like the media keys,

00:31:48   the volume up and down, the play/pause, the mute,

00:31:52   anybody who uses the various things

00:31:55   that used to be called Exposé that are now lumped into all these other things, and I

00:31:59   always use F11 for show desktop, like, those things, those are very frequently hit by a

00:32:06   good number of users, I think. And so if you remove those as keys at all, and it's just

00:32:11   this touch surface that you need to, you pretty much would need to look at it to see what

00:32:16   you're hitting, and you wouldn't get that physical feedback of a key press to know that

00:32:19   that you did hit it correctly, that is,

00:32:24   I really hope we never get to that point

00:32:26   because there's a reason why in all these,

00:32:30   all the effort that we've put into making things thinner

00:32:34   and lighter and mechanically simpler and removing buttons,

00:32:37   there's a reason we still have keyboard buttons

00:32:40   on computers, even when you look at the MacBook One

00:32:44   and you see we barely have keyboard buttons,

00:32:46   but we still have keyboard buttons for a reason.

00:32:49   And that is that when you are not looking,

00:32:51   when you're typing blind, it is way easier

00:32:54   and more accurate and faster and ergonomically better

00:32:56   to have key switches that move up and down

00:32:58   that you can feel when you push.

00:33:00   So the idea of replacing this strip with something,

00:33:04   with an OLED strip to accomplish various goals.

00:33:09   The benefits here would be you could put stuff

00:33:13   under that part and make, 'cause it would be thinner,

00:33:15   I wouldn't need any kind of travel under it,

00:33:17   and presumably the screen component could be very thin,

00:33:19   thinner than a keyboard row could be,

00:33:21   so you could shove more of the computer's guts or battery

00:33:24   under that area, so you save something there.

00:33:27   It would look cool, maybe, if it wouldn't look tacky,

00:33:31   so you'd save, you know, you'd gain something there.

00:33:33   - You could put banner ads on it.

00:33:35   Oh, it's not a Chromebook, nevermind.

00:33:36   - Yeah, there you go.

00:33:38   Yeah, so like, you could see the reasons to do this,

00:33:40   and I should point out also, like,

00:33:41   and you know, you could use it for like status things,

00:33:43   And PC laptops have had displays above the keyboard

00:33:47   that show statuses of things for a long time.

00:33:50   - Also on the covers and on the back and on the sides,

00:33:53   there's been displays on every possible surface

00:33:54   of PC laptops.

00:33:55   There was a Windows feature they were touting

00:33:57   like one or two or three years ago.

00:33:59   They were like, the new Windows feature

00:34:00   is like secondary screens on laptops

00:34:02   and it's OS supported and basically PC manufacturers,

00:34:05   go ahead, figure out where it's a good idea to put a screen

00:34:08   and you just try to sell things like this

00:34:09   and the iOS will support them

00:34:11   and it doesn't seem like it really caught on that much.

00:34:12   - Yeah, so anyway, Apple could do this that way

00:34:16   with replacing the F&K row entirely with a screen.

00:34:20   I hope they don't do it that way.

00:34:22   Unfortunately, we've heard from a certain tipster

00:34:24   that that's not how they're going to do it.

00:34:26   That the tipster suggested that what he saw around

00:34:31   was not that version of it, but was instead,

00:34:38   you still had the physical buttons

00:34:41   and the screen augmented the buttons in some way.

00:34:45   So that, I'm hoping that is correct,

00:34:49   and that I wouldn't mind.

00:34:50   If Apple does this right, I think it's gonna be fine.

00:34:55   I really hope they don't get rid

00:34:56   of the entire F in key row itself,

00:34:58   'cause I really want those keys to be there,

00:35:00   but I don't really care how they're labeled.

00:35:02   - I've got an idea.

00:35:03   You could sell an external keyboard like this

00:35:05   and call it the Apple Extended Keyboard,

00:35:07   and then finally Apple would sell a keyboard

00:35:09   that is not a tiny little piece of crap with no inverted T arrow keys on it.

00:35:13   Oh, don't even get me started. Don't even get me started. You are wrong, sir.

00:35:17   Some chat room credit. Windows Sideshow was a great name.

00:35:21   That's fantastic.

00:35:22   The name for the external, like the support for weird secondary displays on laptops. And

00:35:28   Nathan A. in the chat room pointed out that what I was trying to think of was a OS X Lion

00:35:32   came out with Retina support 10.7.5 because basically the fully Retina supporting OS X8

00:35:38   wasn't out yet.

00:35:39   And the old the App Store came to 10.6.

00:35:41   - 10.6.8, yeah, I think.

00:35:43   - Yeah, anyway, so that's the F and key row.

00:35:46   I think we have that well covered.

00:35:47   Let's see if you guys have other comments on that.

00:35:50   - I think the idea of having a big,

00:35:52   that Artipius says they're not doing,

00:35:55   but just having a big flat screen,

00:35:57   there's the obvious reasons that's bad

00:36:00   and you went over them.

00:36:01   Like, did you feel if your keys,

00:36:02   you wanna feel what the edges are,

00:36:03   it's a pain in the butt if it's just one big flat screen.

00:36:05   But I have to think, and we've joked about this

00:36:08   so many times and talking about the MacBook keyboard and everything like, "Well, why even

00:36:11   have keys at all if there's going to be so little travel?" And part of the whole big

00:36:15   sales pitch of the original iPhone presentation was like, "Oh, look at all these phones. They

00:36:18   have all these buttons on them, but you kind of have to pick the buttons when you make

00:36:21   the phone and you can't change them after the fact. Well, what if we made the whole

00:36:24   surface of the phone a screen? Then you don't have to worry about what the buttons are because

00:36:27   it's all software and we can change them all the time." And everybody said, "Yeah, all

00:36:30   software, but then how the hell can you feel the keys when you're trying to type on the

00:36:32   thing because it's just a big flat screen. We work that out as a society. We now know how to

00:36:39   type on a on flat screen phones. It's a little bit different because the focal distance between

00:36:45   looking at the keyboard and looking at the screen is a little bit better on a phone than it is on a

00:36:51   laptop combination. Like you're kind of looking in the same place at the same distance as opposed to

00:36:55   you know looking at the keyboard. Obviously touch typists are going to say "oh I don't like this

00:36:59   this is like I'm a touch typist,

00:37:01   I don't have to look at the keyboard.

00:37:02   I wonder what percentage of the world population

00:37:05   looks at the keyboard when they type,

00:37:07   not on a phone, on like a regular laptop or desktop keyboard

00:37:11   maybe it's pretty high, maybe it's not, I don't know,

00:37:13   but you still have the same focal distance question.

00:37:15   Anyway, there was the final thing

00:37:17   that I can't remember the source of this,

00:37:18   maybe one of you will, was it on iMore?

00:37:20   Somebody did a survey of how fast can you touch type

00:37:25   on an iPad keyboard, like on a totally glass keyboard

00:37:29   by age, and they split it up by age.

00:37:31   And the old people, of course, were horrendously bad

00:37:33   at touch typing on it.

00:37:34   And the younger you got, the bigger the bars get,

00:37:37   up to the point where people were typing faster

00:37:38   on the iPad keyboard than I can type on a real keyboard.

00:37:42   I'm a terrible typist, so that's not a big judge.

00:37:44   But they were into like, you know, over 60 words a minute.

00:37:47   - This was Cortex, by the way.

00:37:48   - Oh, was it Cortex?

00:37:49   - Yep.

00:37:50   - Yeah, anyway, it makes me wonder about the future.

00:37:53   Like, for now, we're all glad if they do

00:37:56   the separate buttons with little LED things in them,

00:37:58   it looks cool, we can feel the button edges, and I know I don't look at the keyboard when

00:38:01   I hit the escape key and many other things, like I'm not really a touch typist, I don't

00:38:05   type the right way, but in practice I can program without looking at the keyboard, even

00:38:09   though my fingers are doing completely the incorrect thing down there.

00:38:16   But we're gonna get old and retire and die, and eventually I don't think it's too unrealistic

00:38:21   to imagine that it's possible, not guaranteed, but possible that future future future Apple

00:38:26   laptops could either A) not exist or B) just have an entire screen for the keyboard area

00:38:35   because it would be thinner and it would be infinitely reconfigurable and people do get

00:38:39   used to them and people can actually get fast with them and it makes me wonder about the

00:38:43   future.

00:38:44   Yeah, I mean like I think my ideal setup here, because I do recognize like the advantages

00:38:50   of having like dynamic soft keys where maybe some of them the system defines as always

00:38:56   having pretty much the same functions, things like volume controls, and then some of them

00:39:01   are application defined. And applications can say, "All right, well, when you have

00:39:05   like Photoshop or Logic or whatever active, then you can map these buttons to these commands

00:39:09   and actually show them on there." And that makes it easier to learn the keyboard shortcuts

00:39:13   and these functions become more accessible and everything.

00:39:16   So like there is...

00:39:17   >> You can also do the fuzzy targets too, just like a phone keyboard does. That was

00:39:20   another big selling point of the phone keyboard. It's like, "Oh, we know that most likely

00:39:23   in the English language, the next letter has a much higher percentage chance to be, you

00:39:27   know, an R than an X. So even though you're a little bit off of the key that you were

00:39:32   trying to hit, will, you know, like the sort of fuzzy matching for where your fingers tap,

00:39:38   and you may think, "Oh, I don't need that when the keys are full size." But maybe you

00:39:42   do, maybe it would help. Like, there are things you can do with a completely software-controlled,

00:39:47   completely flat glass keyboard that you can't do with a physical one.

00:39:50   Well, right.

00:39:51   That might be good.

00:39:52   - To me, I think the happy medium here would be

00:39:56   that you still have the physical buttons there.

00:39:59   If you're doing the entire keyboard,

00:40:04   not just the F in row, if you're doing the entire keyboard,

00:40:07   I think your argument makes more sense,

00:40:10   even though I think I would hate that,

00:40:11   but it would be so much more powerful

00:40:13   'cause you could do things like,

00:40:15   well, the entire left half of this

00:40:16   is going to be a jog wheel instead of keys.

00:40:19   You could do dynamic stuff.

00:40:21   - Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

00:40:23   The entire thing would be just,

00:40:25   it would just be like, be, you know,

00:40:26   just like typing on an iPad.

00:40:27   It's just one big flat piece of glass for the whole thing.

00:40:29   Not a bunch of individual keys.

00:40:31   Because it almost feels like a weird in-between state

00:40:33   to have the Optimus keyboard where it's like,

00:40:35   we want the keys to be infinitely reconfigurable,

00:40:38   but they'll always have to be the same size and position.

00:40:40   - Right, but I think in the context of a Mac,

00:40:43   and especially a Mac laptop where whatever keyboard

00:40:47   they ship in a Mac laptop, you're stuck with.

00:40:50   I mean, you could put other keyboards on desks

00:40:53   when you go park it on a desk,

00:40:54   but when you are out in the world

00:40:57   or when you're using your laptop on the couch

00:40:59   or by itself with no additional hardware on a desk,

00:41:02   whatever keyboard that has in it, you don't have a choice.

00:41:05   So I think in the current context

00:41:08   of how people use Macs and PCs,

00:41:12   I think it's important to have a physical keyboard.

00:41:14   And I think looking at things like the MacBook One

00:41:16   where Apple goes to incredible lengths

00:41:19   make a really crappy physical keyboard, but it's still better than typing on glass, I

00:41:25   think Apple probably agrees, I think that's the sign Apple agrees, that in the Mac landscape

00:41:30   you need physical keys. So if you're going to have physical keys and you want this key

00:41:34   strip to be dynamic, it makes sense to also keep those as physical keys because the way

00:41:40   people are going to be using that keyboard is still going to be based on feel for the

00:41:44   for the most part, and you're not really gonna gain much,

00:41:48   you know, if you only have a thin strip

00:41:50   on top of the keyboard to customize in software,

00:41:54   you're not really gonna gain much

00:41:56   by having that be a flat touch surface

00:41:59   that you wouldn't also have by having them be physical keys.

00:42:01   And you also won't, there will be no cost to it then,

00:42:04   to the user, like there will be no downside

00:42:06   if there's still physical keys

00:42:07   and you're just changing the labels on them.

00:42:09   Then there's no complaint, there's no downside

00:42:12   except cost and complexity,

00:42:13   but seems like Apple's okay with that.

00:42:15   I think that sounds fine.

00:42:18   I think that would be my happy medium is,

00:42:20   sure, if you're gonna do this at all,

00:42:22   make it like the Optimus keyboard.

00:42:23   Put some kind of screens on each key

00:42:26   or put a big screen below all the keys

00:42:27   and make them clear or something, I don't know.

00:42:29   But that's, yeah.

00:42:31   - It'll be a screen on each key.

00:42:33   But for the big, flat glass thing,

00:42:35   you can also get rid of the trackpad at that point, too.

00:42:38   It's a simplification that may prove

00:42:39   irresistible eventually. If the customer base eventually gets to the point where they feel

00:42:44   like we can sell this product and not too many people will complain except for the really

00:42:48   old people. I just want an extended keyboard. Is that too much to ask? Is that just not

00:42:51   a thing anymore that Apple doesn't really, it's like they want their keyboards to be

00:42:54   super small because they're all used on submarines or whatever. I don't know what the use case

00:42:58   is for constantly making the keyboard not just thinner, fine, whatever, I don't really

00:43:02   care that much about that, but narrower. Am I using it in coach class on United? I don't

00:43:06   I don't know what, why does it have to be so,

00:43:08   I've got this big desk here.

00:43:10   Like, take off the numeric keypad, fine,

00:43:13   but give me an inverted T, I use those keys

00:43:16   when I type and program.

00:43:17   - Also, a quick comment on the thinness of keyboards here,

00:43:20   just for a second.

00:43:22   Articles are saying that this new MacBook Pro

00:43:25   has a thinner keyboard that is like the MacBook One keyboard.

00:43:30   This would normally freak me out,

00:43:32   except the tipster has said many times in the chat

00:43:35   that yes it is that general type of keyboard,

00:43:38   however it is much closer to the new

00:43:41   standalone Magic keyboard than the MacBook One's

00:43:45   total crap keyboard.

00:43:46   I've tried the Magic keyboard in the store,

00:43:48   I know Casey you love yours right?

00:43:50   - I cannot say enough good things about it,

00:43:52   with the exception I agree I would prefer the inverted T

00:43:55   but I've learned to move on from it.

00:43:59   - Page up, page down, home and end,

00:44:00   don't you miss those guys and being in a normal place

00:44:02   where you can find them really easily?

00:44:03   - No. - Nope.

00:44:04   - Really honestly don't. - Yes.

00:44:05   - What year is this? - Seriously.

00:44:06   - You don't use page up and page down?

00:44:08   - No.

00:44:09   I even have them on my keyboard, I never use them.

00:44:11   - You swipe on your silly little mice?

00:44:13   - When I used Windows, I used home and end all the time,

00:44:16   but now I use command left, command right,

00:44:17   and that's, you know. - Right.

00:44:18   - No, home and end doing what they're supposed to do,

00:44:20   not what they do on Windows.

00:44:21   It doesn't make any sense

00:44:22   what they do on Windows. - Okay.

00:44:23   (laughing)

00:44:24   - Go to the beginning of the line, that's not home.

00:44:26   What world is that home?

00:44:27   Home is the top, end is the bottom.

00:44:28   - That's command up and command down, easy peasy.

00:44:31   So the point is, I love the Magic Keyboard. It is my favorite keyboard that I've ever used.

00:44:36   And I have tried just about any of the popular keyboards, or close variants thereof.

00:44:42   And I grew up on the IBM, what was it, the IBM M or something like that? The ridiculous--

00:44:46   Buckling springs! You love 'em.

00:44:48   Yeah, and so, I mean, I'm not a keyboard snob,

00:44:52   and I don't really typically care for really loud, clicky keyboards.

00:44:56   However, I love the Magic Keyboard more than anything.

00:45:00   and the only flaw I see in it is I do agree with you that I wish I had the inverted T.

00:45:04   So I love this thing.

00:45:05   Yeah, I'm totally with you on that.

00:45:07   But overall, like, the Magic Keyboard, I think, is fine.

00:45:11   Like I have no problem with that.

00:45:12   So if the tipster is right that the new MacBook Pro keyboard is much closer to that than to

00:45:18   the MacBook One keyboard, that's fine.

00:45:21   However, I would just generally like to say, like, there were a few people on Twitter who

00:45:24   were kind of saying worrying things to me earlier about how keyboards should keep getting

00:45:28   thinner, it is great to have laptops that are thin and light, but in general what matters

00:45:35   more is the light, not the thin. And keyboards weigh almost nothing, no matter how thick

00:45:41   they are. Like the keyboard component of a laptop is mostly empty space, and the key

00:45:46   travel is all empty space, of course, because the keys have to move up and down.

00:45:50   All matter is mostly empty space.

00:45:52   Thanks Sean.

00:45:53   Thanks.

00:45:54   (laughing)

00:45:55   I'm so happy you added that.

00:45:57   (laughing)

00:45:59   - I was on the kick of trying to stop email from people.

00:46:02   You have to have the new level of,

00:46:05   well actually, well actually all matter.

00:46:07   It's mostly empty space.

00:46:08   Anyway, go on.

00:46:09   - Okay.

00:46:11   How am I supposed to get to, anyway.

00:46:12   (laughing)

00:46:14   All right, so anyway.

00:46:15   So yeah, keyboards are extremely lightweight.

00:46:19   If you're talking about making laptops thinner and lighter,

00:46:22   Again, lighter matters more than thinner.

00:46:25   And if it gets to the point where you start sacrificing

00:46:29   the usability of the keyboard,

00:46:31   if you have to ship a crappy keyboard

00:46:34   in order to make the laptop appealing visually

00:46:38   to make it thinner from the side,

00:46:39   which is an angle which nobody ever looks at it,

00:46:42   I think that's a bad choice.

00:46:43   I think Apple went too far with that, but--

00:46:45   - It's also harder to pick up, by the way,

00:46:47   as they get thinner.

00:46:48   It gets harder to, eventually it's like,

00:46:49   I know they cup the edges and they make it,

00:46:51   but like at a certain point,

00:46:52   if you keep being thinner and thinner,

00:46:54   you don't have enough edge left to even cup.

00:46:56   And if you put it down,

00:46:57   it's like trying to pick a coin off a very smooth table.

00:47:00   It's hard to do.

00:47:00   - Yeah, it also makes it harder to open the lid.

00:47:02   But anyway, and that's, well, weight too.

00:47:04   Anyway, so my point is,

00:47:06   I think if you are optimizing your laptop for thinness,

00:47:10   I think you're optimizing it for the wrong thing.

00:47:12   You should let thinness follow from battery removals,

00:47:16   which will result in more efficient CPUs,

00:47:18   more efficient components, things like that,

00:47:20   and things like getting rid of the optical drive

00:47:22   and making other components thinner.

00:47:24   But I don't think you should ever be at a point

00:47:26   where you are making the keyboard hard to use

00:47:29   or less ergonomically friendly or otherwise horrible

00:47:33   for the sake of shaving another millimeter

00:47:35   off the case thickness.

00:47:36   Because if the laptop is still very light

00:47:40   and is just like a millimeter thicker

00:47:41   to accommodate better key switches, that's fine.

00:47:45   That's an acceptable trade-off for a laptop

00:47:47   because you want laptops to be light,

00:47:50   but you don't need them to be paper thin.

00:47:53   And if you just, like,

00:47:54   we're not talking about a big difference here.

00:47:56   We're not talking about, like,

00:47:57   going back to the old PowerBook G4 thickness

00:47:59   to have a decent keyboard.

00:48:00   You don't need that.

00:48:01   You can look today, you can look at the MacBook Air,

00:48:04   and you can look at the MacBook Pro today,

00:48:06   and, you know, presumably what it's about to be

00:48:08   in a few months.

00:48:09   You can make a great laptop with a great keyboard

00:48:13   that's very, very thin,

00:48:15   but I think the MacBook One took it too far.

00:48:17   And it sounds like with these newer MacBook Pros,

00:48:20   if all the rumors are right, if Tipster's right,

00:48:23   I think we'll be okay again.

00:48:24   I think we will have re-achieved a good balance here.

00:48:27   So I'm looking forward to seeing how that turns out.

00:48:29   I hope Apple does it right.

00:48:30   And in general, I've been very critical to MacBook One,

00:48:35   even though people love it, that's fine.

00:48:36   If you love it, good for you, I'm happy for you.

00:48:38   In general, I expect the new MacBook Pro to be awesome,

00:48:44   both 13 and 15.

00:48:46   based on both what we've heard, what's been reported,

00:48:49   and just based on, you know, Apple,

00:48:52   the things that really matter, things like the iPhone,

00:48:56   Apple is really, they have a fantastic track record.

00:48:59   You know, Apple has never made a bad iPhone.

00:49:03   And similarly, I don't think Apple

00:49:05   has ever made a bad MacBook Pro.

00:49:08   There have been a few that have been slightly imperfect,

00:49:10   but for the most part, the MacBook Pro,

00:49:13   They just nail it.

00:49:14   It has such a good history, such a good track record.

00:49:19   And it has to because the MacBook Pro is like

00:49:23   the workhorse of the entire industry.

00:49:26   Pretty much every web developer,

00:49:29   almost every Apple developer, tons of people inside Apple,

00:49:33   tons of journalists, tons of people, tons of students.

00:49:36   The MacBook Pro is such the workhorse of so many people,

00:49:40   they can't screw, like, they like,

00:49:42   legally, they just can't screw it up.

00:49:45   And they know that.

00:49:46   Apple, I think, would not take lightly

00:49:49   major changes to the MacBook Pro.

00:49:51   And their track record on it is so good

00:49:53   that I am confident that this is going to be awesome.

00:49:55   Even though I am skeptical of many of the things

00:49:59   that Apple does these days,

00:50:01   I definitely give them the benefit of the doubt

00:50:04   that whatever we hear about this new MacBook Pro

00:50:07   that might sound a little bit weird,

00:50:09   it's probably gonna be awesome.

00:50:11   - Yeah, I agree, I'm really looking forward to this.

00:50:15   To me, I feel like I would just be thrilled

00:50:19   if the next MacBook Pro had a keyboard

00:50:22   as close to the magic keyboard as possible,

00:50:24   and also an SD card slot that didn't trip

00:50:26   my damn SD card read switch.

00:50:28   - SD card slot, no, no, you get USB three ports,

00:50:33   USB-C, Type-C connectors, and that's all,

00:50:36   and you'll like it, mister.

00:50:37   - Probably right, and I was being silly

00:50:38   about the SD card thing, but anyway,

00:50:40   I think an improved keyboard would be great, and I don't think the current keyboards are

00:50:43   bad.

00:50:44   I just freaking love the Magic Keyboard.

00:50:46   But I agree with you, Marco.

00:50:47   I think that they have a great track record, and I can't see them releasing a dud.

00:50:54   And even though some of these rumors are making me scratch my head a little bit, I'm really,

00:50:58   really amped to see these.

00:51:00   And also miserable, because I'm not getting a new Mac from work for another two years,

00:51:06   I think, and I'm certainly not buying one for home.

00:51:08   So I'll be sad.

00:51:10   I'm still looking for a retina air.

00:51:14   I know the 13 will be so thin it'll almost be air-like, but now that the air has been

00:51:17   freed up, you know, we have the 5K iMac, we used to have the air connected to a Thunderbolt

00:51:22   display and now just the air is like rattling around the house and my daughter is smearing

00:51:25   her yogurt-covered fingers on it and I'm routinely cleaning it.

00:51:28   Anyway, 13-inch air is such a great form factor for a laptop.

00:51:32   It's such a good machine.

00:51:33   The screen is crap, but everything else about it, this is like a 2011 model, right?

00:51:38   That screen is not good.

00:51:39   everything else about it is just so nice and because it's a 2011 model, it's like a five-year-old's

00:51:43   computer, it looks great. And so now hopefully maybe these 13s will get down to the point

00:51:49   where it's getting close to that because the Airs haven't been updated. And you said that

00:51:52   the Pro is the workhorse, it's the workhorse of like, you know, professional people or

00:51:55   people who need some sort of computing power to do their job. But the Airs were the sort

00:52:00   of computing for the Apple laptop for the rest of us, where you're not going to be compiling

00:52:08   you just want to like browse the web and write papers for school or whatever.

00:52:12   It was such a great student computer, it was such a great computer for people who don't

00:52:15   have particularly demanding needs.

00:52:16   It's a real high point, I think, when we look back on the grade max, the 13-inch Air, that

00:52:23   design, if not the particular innards, but like when they redesigned the case and everything,

00:52:27   that was a great computer.

00:52:29   And so like the pros, the first Retina ones were pretty impressive, and now they're going

00:52:34   to go super thin and just have the USB-C ports on the side and just shave off all those things

00:52:38   these have the potential to be really great long-lasting computers to remember.

00:52:43   The touch ID and the weird, you know, screen keys and stuff also has the

00:52:50   potential to have them go wrong until they sort that out, but like you said,

00:52:54   like they're surely they've had enough time to work out these kinks and this is

00:52:57   the type of thing they could have been working on for a long time so I have

00:53:00   some confidence that they're gonna be good as well. Although I have to admit

00:53:04   when I saw you Marco tweeting about the thin keyboard thing,

00:53:08   I thought you were talking about

00:53:10   their external desktop keyboards

00:53:12   that also keep getting thinner for even, as I said,

00:53:15   even more mysterious reasons.

00:53:16   Not just like, you know, I talked about the width before

00:53:18   with the United Airlines,

00:53:19   but they're also getting like thinner

00:53:20   as in lower to the desk.

00:53:22   They're just wasting away.

00:53:24   Soon they're just gonna give you a bunch of key caps

00:53:25   and you'll throw them on your desk.

00:53:26   (laughing)

00:53:28   - No, I mean like in Apple's defense,

00:53:30   I mean one of the reasons I don't use their desktop keyboards

00:53:32   is that the ergonomics are horrible on them,

00:53:34   and I need something with better ergonomics

00:53:37   to prevent RSI problems.

00:53:39   In their defense though, the worst thing about ergonomics

00:53:42   of most desktop keyboards is when the back

00:53:45   is higher than the front, the forward tilt.

00:53:48   That's terrible for ergonomics.

00:53:50   And by the way, anybody listening,

00:53:51   if you have the feet flipped up on the back

00:53:54   so that your keyboard is tilted even more,

00:53:55   for God's sake, flip those feet down.

00:53:57   - Put something under the front to make it level.

00:53:59   - Yeah, there's a reason why,

00:54:00   if you look at natural keyboards now,

00:54:02   like the Microsoft Sculpt and everything,

00:54:04   there's a reason why they come with this big riser

00:54:06   on the front that lifts the front up

00:54:08   so it's actually tilting away from you.

00:54:10   And everyone thinks it looks weird,

00:54:11   and it does the first time you see it,

00:54:13   but way better for ergonomics, there's a reason for that.

00:54:16   Anyway, if Apple makes their keyboards thinner,

00:54:20   it actually reduces the tilt inherently.

00:54:23   And so it slightly improves the ergonomics.

00:54:27   - They can still be totally level.

00:54:28   Like I have a really old translucent plastic

00:54:30   Apple USB keyboard I saw in the attic when I was cleaning stuff up. Those were pretty

00:54:34   much perfectly flat as well, although they did have stupid feet in the back. But anyway,

00:54:37   you can make a keyboard that is level, it just doesn't have to be level and also the

00:54:41   thickness of three credit cards. Because again, I fear that they're going to get to the point

00:54:45   where they're starting to sacrifice travel on the desktop model. So it's like, what space

00:54:48   are you saving? The airspace above my desk? You want to save two millimeters of airspace?

00:54:52   Please, width-wise and height-wise, don't go nuts with the thing. And I understand the

00:54:56   part sharing with the laptops. Like that's why I think it could literally be the same

00:55:00   exact part. I haven't seen the Magic Keyboard, I can't tell if it's actually a laptop-worthy

00:55:04   part, but anyway. I understand the economies of scale going on here, I just think that

00:55:09   the desktop keyboards, and also the little edges around it, people are like "sometimes

00:55:12   it's hard to pick up my keyboard if I want to move it, because how the hell do you pick

00:55:14   it up, because the keycaps go right to the edge." It's a little bit extreme, it's a little

00:55:18   bit, we're getting into the realm of form over function, where like "what do I have

00:55:22   to do with the keyboard? I want to type on it, sometimes you have to move it around."

00:55:26   I don't really care if it looks like,

00:55:29   I mean I do care if it looks like a beautiful piece of art,

00:55:32   but when that look starts to compromise

00:55:35   the basic things I do with my keyboard,

00:55:37   including occasionally picking them up

00:55:38   or moving them around, it's silly.

00:55:40   - But that is today's Apple.

00:55:43   Like the desktop keyboards, I mean,

00:55:45   if there's ever a thing that they make

00:55:47   that that form of a function wins,

00:55:50   it's like the desktop input peripherals

00:55:53   because the function part doesn't really matter.

00:55:57   Anybody who cares about the ergonomics or the size

00:56:01   or the layout or the key switches or the thickness

00:56:03   of their desktop keyboard,

00:56:04   they're just gonna use a different keyboard.

00:56:05   And this is exactly the kind of area

00:56:08   where Johnny Ive's gonna come in and be like,

00:56:10   "All right, well, this needs to look even thinner

00:56:12   "and even sleeker so that it looks great

00:56:13   "in all of our press shots and so the iMac looks great

00:56:16   "and they look great in the stores

00:56:17   "and the boxes can be smaller and all this stuff."

00:56:20   This is exactly the kind of area

00:56:22   where Apple would absolutely go nuts

00:56:24   and sacrifice functionality for form,

00:56:27   and the cost of that isn't so big.

00:56:31   It's way worse than laptops, whereas I said,

00:56:33   you're kind of stuck with the keyboard

00:56:35   that's in a laptop.

00:56:36   So that, I think, is the bigger area

00:56:38   we have to watch out for.

00:56:39   And I do feel like, even though I just got done

00:56:41   praising Apple for how awesome they're probably

00:56:42   gonna be with this, I do feel like

00:56:46   that I'm kind of always on edge trying to defend

00:56:49   and hold onto things on Apple products that work well

00:56:54   or are ergonomically friendly.

00:56:56   Because I feel like I'm always battling Johnny Ive

00:56:59   on like, no, please stop making things worse

00:57:03   or harder to use or more slippery or, you know,

00:57:07   with the Apple TV remote where you can't even tell

00:57:10   which way is up and you're pressing things wrong.

00:57:12   Like, please, please, Johnny, stop, stay away from my things

00:57:16   you're standing off all the things that make them usable.

00:57:19   And I am a little bit worried about that angle of Apple

00:57:23   kind of taking over more than it should.

00:57:25   And that, I think, long term,

00:57:28   both present and into the near future,

00:57:30   I think that is a major concern

00:57:31   that many of us should have about Apple,

00:57:33   that real world usability and ergonomics

00:57:37   seem to be a very low priority and an ever shrinking one

00:57:40   that they're happy to borrow from

00:57:43   to make gains in thinness and appearance.

00:57:45   - Or they've just forgotten how to do it,

00:57:47   like the keyboard I have, the Apple Extended Aluminum Keyboard, I've bought many of these.

00:57:51   I've gone through a couple of them actually breaking the keys, which maybe doesn't speak

00:57:55   to the reliability of the keyboard considering I used the Apple Extended 2 for years and the only

00:57:59   way I broke it is because I dropped my pocket knife off of a shelf onto it and snapped off one

00:58:03   of the function keys. But I like the Apple Extended Aluminum Keyboard in every aspect except for the

00:58:09   fact that the stupid top row of function keys is too close to the number keys and is not full size.

00:58:15   but every other aspect of it, I like that it's thin and small and doesn't have any excess room,

00:58:20   it doesn't have any excess sort of trimming and stuff around it, it could be a little bit flatter

00:58:24   because it does tilt up a little bit, but it is, I think, a reasonable interpretation of the

00:58:29   minimalist flat thing. I like the fact that the keys have low effort because that helps my RSI

00:58:33   and I can't type on a keyboard. So like if given the choice, if you can have any keyboard in the

00:58:39   world with your new Mac, this is still the one that I would pick because it's still basically

00:58:43   my favorite keyboard out of all the ones that I've tried, and I can't use my Apple Extended 2 anymore.

00:58:48   But they went a little bit farther. The next keyboard was like, "Well, the other one had a

00:58:53   little bit of a rim around the edge so you could pick it up. Can we shave that off?" And the answer

00:58:57   is, "Yes, we can." And can we put it directly down to the ground instead of having a lip where you can

00:59:01   get your fingers underneath it? "Well, we can do that too." And can you take off all those useful

00:59:04   keys that people use sometimes? "Yep, they can do that too." And now I'm sad. But you still buy this

00:59:09   one by the way like you can still buy the extended keyboard with your new

00:59:12   computer it's just it's like you feel like you're getting the last generation

00:59:15   thing you can buy this shiny new keyboard that if Casey has and he loves

00:59:18   so much with these cool key switches that I like to I tried them the Apple

00:59:21   store I think they're great too or you can get this old keyboard that silly

00:59:25   people use with the extra keys on them yeah I one of the things I love about

00:59:29   this keyboard is that it is so darn flat now I wouldn't say I'm I ever was

00:59:35   seeking out a keyboard that's flat, but now that it's in front of me, I like that it's

00:59:40   so flat because I feel like it works better for me ergonomically. Now, maybe that's wrong,

00:59:45   maybe I'm crazy, but it feels good to me, and I like that if I decide to take my iPad

00:59:53   on a trip, for example, and I don't want to take my full-on 15-inch work computer, I can

00:59:58   just throw this keyboard in my bag and it's like it's not even there. It's thin, it's

01:00:03   and it's my favorite keyboard I have ever used.

01:00:07   So I know I talk about it constantly,

01:00:09   but I cannot say enough good things about this keyboard.

01:00:12   - It's a great portable keyboard,

01:00:13   but I'm not buying it for portable,

01:00:15   I'm buying it as like, this is the one

01:00:16   that's gonna be attached to my,

01:00:17   and by the way, I like when they're attached with the wire,

01:00:19   because again, I have a place for the wire to go,

01:00:21   and I don't need to deal with Bluetooth,

01:00:23   and I don't need to deal with batteries,

01:00:24   'cause it's never gonna go anywhere.

01:00:25   It's always gonna be plugged into my computer.

01:00:26   It'll be fine.

01:00:27   So yeah, and the flatness again is not an innovation

01:00:32   of this particular keyboard,

01:00:32   because like I said, there's been flat keyboards

01:00:34   from Apple and others forever and ever and ever

01:00:36   without any feet, without anything that are just nice

01:00:38   and level, it's the tucking in of the edges

01:00:42   and the bringing of the edges straight down to the table

01:00:44   and the trimming off of the keys

01:00:46   and the not having a space between the numbers

01:00:49   and the function keys

01:00:49   because that would make the keyboard ever so slightly bigger

01:00:52   it's like, yeah, all right

01:00:53   if you're making a portable keyboard, I see that trade off

01:00:55   you want it to fit in your backpack,

01:00:56   every millimeter counts, it's gonna be on my desk

01:00:59   every millimeter does not count in the same way

01:01:01   and it just strikes me as a bad trade off.

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01:03:10   (upbeat music)

01:03:13   - So you had written a post, Marco,

01:03:16   about whether or not Apple's kinda allowing themselves

01:03:19   to get left behind on this whole intelligent assistant thing.

01:03:23   - Can't we just talk about the MacBook Pro some more instead?

01:03:25   - No, I think we've beaten that to death at this point.

01:03:28   So I don't necessarily need to get into the article too much

01:03:32   but I thought it was reasonable.

01:03:35   And then curiously, a day or two later,

01:03:38   there's a article on the information

01:03:42   about Apple's opening up Siri

01:03:44   and it's developing an echo rival.

01:03:47   Interesting.

01:03:48   - Yeah, I mean, this could be a coincidence.

01:03:52   It could be a controlled leaking response.

01:03:54   I have no idea.

01:03:55   It's probably a coincidence, being realistic here.

01:03:58   But yeah, I mean, so I don't wanna go too far into it.

01:04:02   The gist of my article was, this was another one

01:04:04   of these situations where I write something critical

01:04:07   about Apple in my blog and it just goes everywhere.

01:04:10   This time, I don't feel bad about it.

01:04:13   This time, with the whole functional high ground thing,

01:04:16   I mainly felt bad about it because A,

01:04:19   I did not expect that at all.

01:04:22   I had never seen that kind of response before,

01:04:24   it was more of a shock. B, the bigger reason is that I just didn't write it very well,

01:04:29   I didn't do a very good job of writing it, and so I was kind of embarrassed that a lot

01:04:34   of people, including people at Apple, saw this, and it wasn't very good work. So that's

01:04:39   why I kind of had a hard time back then with the high ground thing. But this time, I wrote

01:04:46   this piece knowing that there was a chance that it might spread, although I didn't expect

01:04:51   the spread of God at all. But knowing there was a chance it might spread, and I wrote

01:04:56   it very carefully, much more carefully than the high ground thing, and I think what came

01:05:01   out, I stand by it. The only thing that I regretted was the, I had originally titled

01:05:06   it "Avoiding BlackBerry's Fate." That kind of implied that if Apple doesn't make this

01:05:12   big shift, they will definitely fail the way BlackBerry did exactly, and that was not my

01:05:18   point that I was trying to make, so I retitled it about a day in to something more closer

01:05:25   to what I actually meant. The rest of it I totally stand by and I don't regret it at

01:05:30   all and so I feel pretty good about it. And it did spread way further than I thought and

01:05:34   many of the crappy rewrites of it have been crappy. Business Insider did what they always

01:05:41   and that's fine. I sent their visitors to the fish meat stick video. And you know, all

01:05:48   the sensational news sites and all the crappy TV people and all the other crappy sites,

01:05:55   they're going to do what they're going to do. And all I need is to be comfortable myself

01:06:02   in standing by what I wrote, in knowing myself that I did good work, that I wrote it, that

01:06:08   that I express myself properly

01:06:10   in the way I wanted to explain myself,

01:06:11   you will not get that reference at all.

01:06:13   - Hi.

01:06:14   - And I'm happy with what I wrote.

01:06:16   And so what I wrote basically,

01:06:18   which I realized now I forgot to say

01:06:20   at the beginning of this giant rant, sorry.

01:06:23   See, I don't stand by this giant rant now.

01:06:25   (laughing)

01:06:25   But so what it, you know,

01:06:27   what I wrote was basically,

01:06:29   I think, you know, Google and Amazon and Facebook

01:06:34   and as many people pointed out, which I didn't, Microsoft,

01:06:37   they're all making these huge developments in AI-like big data services. So things like,

01:06:44   you know, obviously in the old days things like search and maps and directory stuff and

01:06:48   then now in recent times these like, kind of like, these virtual assistants, chatbots,

01:06:54   things like Siri and Cortana and Google Now and stuff like that, and the Amazon Echo and

01:06:59   the Google Home, Webull thing and whatever Amazon and Apple and Facebook and everybody

01:07:04   else we're gonna come up with next.

01:07:06   If the industry shifts to prioritize the functionality

01:07:10   of these virtual assistants,

01:07:12   of this kind of big data AI problem,

01:07:15   as the primary thing people care about

01:07:18   or the primary functionality people want,

01:07:20   Apple is not in a good place for that.

01:07:22   I made the BlackBerry analogy,

01:07:25   'cause I was like, when the iPhone came out,

01:07:28   BlackBerry was on top of the world,

01:07:30   and they were doing really well.

01:07:33   The reason BlackBerry was so screwed is because when Apple came out, they changed the game

01:07:39   completely to raise everyone's expectations of what phones could and should do in areas

01:07:46   that rim, you know, they could not catch up at that point if they wanted to because, like,

01:07:53   Apple had moved the goalposts into this area where, okay, now to be competitive you need

01:07:57   to have a desktop class operating system,

01:08:00   this incredibly complex manufacturing pipeline

01:08:04   to make these incredibly precise, high quality devices,

01:08:07   this massive store ecosystem with all these credit cards

01:08:10   on file and all these developer tools

01:08:12   and the ecosystem of computers surrounding them

01:08:14   and like all this crazy stuff that like,

01:08:18   you know, that the iPhone was,

01:08:20   all the stuff that enabled the iPhone

01:08:22   with assets that Apple had been building up

01:08:24   for like a decade before that.

01:08:26   No matter what Blackberry did at that point,

01:08:29   because they weren't building that kind of assets

01:08:31   for a decade, they were not gonna catch up.

01:08:33   The writing was on the wall as soon as Steve showed

01:08:37   the iPhone in early '07, before it even blew up

01:08:40   with the App Store a year later.

01:08:42   The writing was on the wall for Blackberry

01:08:44   'cause the gap was too wide, they would not be able

01:08:46   to catch up to what the iPhone had now redefined

01:08:49   smartphones to be.

01:08:51   You look now and you see these services,

01:08:54   Apple started out this whole thing with Siri,

01:08:57   and yes, I know Google was doing voice stuff before that,

01:09:00   yes, thank you.

01:09:01   But, you know, Apple kind of started

01:09:02   like the virtual assistant revolution with Siri in 2011.

01:09:07   Yeah, 2011.

01:09:08   It has progressed, it has gotten better,

01:09:10   it has gotten more advanced,

01:09:11   it has added more languages around the world,

01:09:13   which is not an easy thing to do.

01:09:15   But, ultimately, Siri still feels like

01:09:18   a first generation version of this product,

01:09:22   while the competitors are all moving past that

01:09:25   in certain attributes.

01:09:27   So you look at the Amazon Echo,

01:09:28   and the Echo only supports basically US English,

01:09:33   and only is useful to people in the US

01:09:35   for most of its functionality.

01:09:37   But the functionality it does

01:09:40   for those US English speakers,

01:09:42   it does that stuff better and more reliably

01:09:44   and faster than Siri does most of the time.

01:09:47   You look at Google,

01:09:50   is gonna be way better at international support,

01:09:53   way better at different languages,

01:09:55   and Google's also doing a lot of this stuff better,

01:09:58   faster, more reliably now with their Google Now stuff

01:10:02   and all the other Android things that I don't understand.

01:10:05   You know, it's hard to look at this and to see,

01:10:09   yeah, if we all start using these virtual assistants

01:10:12   as our primary interfaces like in two years or whatever,

01:10:15   like, is Apple really gonna catch up

01:10:18   to what Google is doing and what they will have

01:10:20   two years? I don't think so. Because Apple, Apple is not good at big data problems. You

01:10:29   know, number one example of this is the App Store search. You could argue, okay, well

01:10:34   maybe that's like one department that has these technical burdens or whatever else.

01:10:38   Fine, maybe that's true. Okay, what about Siri, where it really matters a lot? Siri

01:10:42   again, it's kind of a Gen 1 product in a Gen 2 world now. And so it is possible, we've

01:10:49   heard lots of rumblings that Apple has made some key acquisitions and investments over

01:10:56   the last year or two and that this WDC, they're going to come out with something major and

01:11:01   it's going to be amazing and that might be true. But just as I said earlier, that Apple

01:11:05   has an amazing track record of MacBook Pro updates. Apple has a really terrible track

01:11:11   record of big data AI problem updates. You hear, "Oh, we've improved Siri, we've

01:11:17   "Now I added these capabilities," or "Now it's better,"

01:11:19   or "Now you can do this," and yet,

01:11:21   somehow it's still unreliable and inconsistent

01:11:24   and sometimes not that smart.

01:11:26   Apple has the opposite problem here of any hype

01:11:29   that's about what Apple might do at WBC

01:11:32   to all of a sudden show us that they're like an amazing AI

01:11:37   and big data company.

01:11:38   I don't believe that for a second.

01:11:40   I would love to be proven wrong.

01:11:42   I really hope I'm proven wrong

01:11:44   because I would so much rather have Apple do well

01:11:47   stuff than have to switch all my garbage to Android. But I don't have a lot of confidence

01:11:54   in Apple doing this stuff because their track record just is not very strong.

01:11:58   So there was an interesting article that I saw today, and I'm assuming it was posted

01:12:02   today, no it was yesterday, on Pixel Envy, and it was titled "Meet Vocal IQ". Vocal

01:12:08   IQ is a small Cambridge-based startup launched in 2011 that specializes in natural speech

01:12:11   recognition and conversational interactions. From a Times article, this is Times UK, published

01:12:19   in June, blah blah blah blah blah, this is a quote from one of their employees, "One

01:12:25   of our key projects is to develop a car that can talk to you like in Knight Rider." Awesome.

01:12:32   So these people got acquired by Apple in October.

01:12:38   And so there was a quote by someone who's been following this, "If Apple utilizes just

01:12:45   a small subset of the technology developed by VocaliQ, we will see a far more advanced

01:12:49   Siri.

01:12:50   However, I'm quite certain that the amazing work of Tom Gruber will also be utilized.

01:12:53   Additionally, the amazing technology from Emolient, Perception, and a number of other

01:12:57   unannounced and future Apple acquisitions will also become a big part of Apple's AI future.

01:13:02   So, Perception apparently was actually a Perceptio, which was a photo classification startup,

01:13:11   which reminds me a lot of Google Photos, which I've also been talking about constantly lately,

01:13:16   because it is amazing. So you put all this together and this article, which is very short,

01:13:21   ends with, "So, who's excited for WWDC?"

01:13:25   And I just think it's interesting.

01:13:27   They've been making a lot of acquisitions

01:13:29   that are right in this wheelhouse,

01:13:31   and we don't know what they've been up to,

01:13:33   but hopefully there's something there.

01:13:36   - I hope that's right.

01:13:37   I mean, again, I really hope I'm wrong on this.

01:13:40   I really hope Apple just suddenly comes out

01:13:42   and is really good at this stuff.

01:13:45   Unfortunately, I don't think it works that way.

01:13:47   I don't think this is the kind of thing you can do quickly.

01:13:50   one thing that's worth investigating is,

01:13:52   yeah, they've made acquisitions like this

01:13:54   and like the Siri people.

01:13:56   Why do these people not stick around?

01:13:59   You know, like is there something about Apple's culture

01:14:01   that, or their organizational structure,

01:14:04   or the departments that these people are hired to work in?

01:14:08   Like why don't they stick around?

01:14:10   Why does Apple need to go buying people

01:14:14   in order to get this kind of talent in the company?

01:14:16   Like is this a problem?

01:14:17   And are there other ways to fix this?

01:14:19   or are there other problems that need to be solved first?

01:14:20   I don't know.

01:14:21   I don't know enough about how they work internally

01:14:23   to really, to have good insight into this,

01:14:26   but what I can see is from the outside.

01:14:28   And again, like, I mean, every time anybody criticizes any,

01:14:32   or has some kind of fear about Apple,

01:14:34   or tries to, you know, or is pessimistic about Apple

01:14:38   in the springtime, everyone always says,

01:14:41   "Oh, just wait, oh, just wait, you're gonna see.

01:14:43   "This is so stupid for you to be thinking about this now,

01:14:46   "'cause just wait 'til everybody see."

01:14:47   "You know what, WWDC is not like Santa Claus.

01:14:50   "It's not magic.

01:14:52   "They're not gonna solve every problem

01:14:53   "that everybody wants them to solve in one keynote,

01:14:56   "and that's not realistic."

01:14:58   People say that I am naive for thinking

01:15:03   Apple's not working on this stuff.

01:15:05   I think thinking Apple's gonna magically solve everything

01:15:07   in two weeks is naive.

01:15:09   I think we can look at what Apple services are today

01:15:13   and what they have been, things like Siri,

01:15:16   things like search and relevancy and predictive inputs

01:15:20   or things like proactive on the phones and everything.

01:15:23   We see what, and Apple News, Apple Music even,

01:15:27   like the recommendations, so we see Apple's

01:15:30   current capabilities, and we know their past capabilities,

01:15:34   in big data, AI-based web services.

01:15:39   And we see that they can do it, they can manage

01:15:43   to have a service out there, and it can work

01:15:47   most of the time and be up most of the time

01:15:49   and be fast most of the time.

01:15:52   But that's like what was good enough five years ago,

01:15:56   10 years ago.

01:15:57   And now the companies who were really good at this stuff,

01:16:01   like Google, they have moved to a different level

01:16:05   of sophistication and performance and consistency.

01:16:09   And we haven't seen Apple match that level.

01:16:12   And it took them a pretty long time

01:16:13   to get to the last level.

01:16:14   So again, look at their track record.

01:16:18   And I don't think it's unreasonable

01:16:20   to be concerned about this.

01:16:21   - David Schaub made a good point in the chat.

01:16:25   Startup people from all these acquisitions

01:16:28   often aren't compatible with big companies

01:16:31   or perhaps moving to the Cupertino area.

01:16:34   So maybe you're happy in Boston

01:16:36   like this VocalIQ company was.

01:16:38   You get bought up by Apple, you're expected to move.

01:16:41   And sometimes people just like the chase of a startup.

01:16:45   Sometimes they just don't like being always on vacation in California.

01:16:48   And it could be that it has nothing to do with Apple at all.

01:16:51   And it's just the kind of mindset or, or, or geographical situation from the,

01:16:56   from these companies that are being bought.

01:16:58   Or it could be that there's the, their new corporate overlords are killing them

01:17:02   and they just can't handle it anymore.

01:17:04   I don't know.

01:17:05   What do you think, John?

01:17:07   On an upcoming episode of another podcast on another network, I had a long discussion

01:17:13   about Apple not talking about, you know, agents or services or things like the Google Home

01:17:22   thing or the Amazon Echo or Siri or Cortana or any of that stuff, but about the more mundane

01:17:30   aspects of cloud computing that it seems that Apple still has yet to master, and in particular

01:17:35   the simple idea of that you have an Apple ID, that you were signed into the Apple ID

01:17:41   in various applications on your phone and that it lets you do things like see your past

01:17:45   purchases, make new purchases, download your music for you know Apple Music or iTunes Match,

01:17:53   see your photos, all those things.

01:17:55   And the utter mess that the whole identity and login system is, both on the web, on your

01:18:04   Mac, but especially on your phone with the series of dialogues popping up and you entering your

01:18:09   password and having no idea why you're being prompted and why you're being prompted again.

01:18:12   That is not just like level 1 or 1.0 or whatever. That's like level 0 many, many years ago

01:18:21   that Apple still hasn't gotten right. So I continue to think I've, you know,

01:18:27   I've been being the shrimp for ages about Apple and services,

01:18:32   that just sort of having something that looks on the outside, just like everyone else's service,

01:18:36   like "Yay! We've done it! We have a service! We're a services company!"

01:18:39   You have to keep evolving the basic parts of your system, sort of in the same way that, you know,

01:18:45   in the beginning Google was the search box that you type terms into. Eventually there was something

01:18:50   to sign into. I forget what the first Google thing to sign into was. Maybe it was Gmail,

01:18:53   maybe it was something else. Eventually there was the concept of a Google account that was unifying

01:18:58   all the various Google things together.

01:19:01   And the way Google authentication works

01:19:03   and the way it's consistent, referencing some tweets

01:19:05   that Craig Hockenberry had been doing recently

01:19:07   about how many different ways can you log in

01:19:10   with your Apple ID just on websites alone

01:19:12   and his speculation that each of those talks

01:19:14   to a different backend and that they're all sort of diverse.

01:19:16   And it's just such a big mess compared to how Google's

01:19:21   authentication and login system has evolved over the years

01:19:25   to get sort of more sturdy, more centralized, more comforting, more reassuring, more reliable,

01:19:32   more predictable, whereas Apple's has gone in the opposite direction. It started off

01:19:36   as small and humble and has become fragmented, confusing, and broken a lot of the time and

01:19:41   inexplicable. And like, we're just talking about logging in. We're not talking about

01:19:47   understand my natural language query that I'm speaking into my phone, which seems like

01:19:50   it's a harder problem, but if you neglect the fundamentals, if you don't, but Margaret

01:19:55   was talking about like the, why are these people not staying in the company as top of

01:19:58   this comp on past shows as well. Like, you know, it could be that a serial entrepreneur

01:20:02   doesn't want to move on to other things, but Apple as an organization has never seemed

01:20:05   to value the type of infrastructure work that is necessary to be a world-class services

01:20:10   organization that you, you can't have every project to do everything on its own. You have

01:20:14   to sort of build up a common core infrastructure like it has, like, again, this is a repeat

01:20:18   of shows from many years ago, but like it has on the OS side.

01:20:21   They had a Core OS.

01:20:23   They developed it.

01:20:24   They used it as the underpinning for their new Mac operating system.

01:20:26   It eventually ended up being the underpinning for their phone operating system, also for

01:20:29   their watch operating system, also for their H.264 HDMI adapter cable for, you know, whatever.

01:20:35   Does that one have iOS in it?

01:20:36   I forget.

01:20:37   I think it does, yeah.

01:20:38   Like, Core technologies, Cocoa, Objective-C, their compiler infrastructure, their development

01:20:42   tools, like, on the client side, in the non-service world, they understand that it's stupid for

01:20:47   every product to have its own little thing.

01:20:49   Unify, share where possible.

01:20:53   It just makes more sense.

01:20:54   And on the services side, they haven't quite gotten that.

01:20:56   Down to the most basic thing you could possibly do with a service, which is log in and have

01:21:00   an application that knows that you're logged in, that doesn't ask you to log in repeatedly

01:21:03   for no reason, doesn't lose your login credentials, doesn't get confused, that you don't have

01:21:06   bad weather iCloud days where things just don't seem to be working.

01:21:12   I don't know how many more people get sick of hearing it about this and me listing off

01:21:15   all the technologies that Google has had and developed over the years that are not for

01:21:19   a specific project, that are so that anybody at Google can make a scalable, worldwide,

01:21:24   reliable, redundant, performant network service on top of these things that they build and

01:21:29   this whole section of the company at Google, all they do is make that infrastructure better

01:21:33   and better and revised and replace this one with a better version than that. And just

01:21:37   it's a rising tide lifts all boats and apples just like you're chucked out into sea with

01:21:41   life preserver and sent to fend for yourself. Even the whole, the Siri people touting like

01:21:45   they're moving to the Apache, was it Mesos or something or whatever? Like, I get the

01:21:49   impression that that team is like solving a problem for themselves. Like why is there

01:21:52   not an Apple-wide solution to anybody who wants to write a service like this that is

01:21:56   infrastructure for the whole company? Why is a product team doing it? I don't know.

01:22:01   It seems to me they just don't get it. And that to me explains partly why people who

01:22:04   aren't serial entrepreneurs but just merely want to work in a company that values that

01:22:07   type of work would definitely go to work for Google or even Amazon or Facebook before they

01:22:11   they would go for Apple because those companies

01:22:13   are so much more focused on valuing those server side

01:22:16   and operations and data center things.

01:22:18   Whereas Apple's like, we kind of try to do it in house

01:22:20   and we kind of farm stuff out to Azure and Amazon,

01:22:23   but we're not really good at that stuff.

01:22:24   We mostly make cool devices

01:22:25   and that's just not gonna cut it long-term.

01:22:28   Regardless of whether AI is awesome or anything,

01:22:30   I think it's not cutting it today

01:22:31   and it's just not gonna cut it

01:22:32   even for basic stuff like photos,

01:22:34   which even if you set aside all the cool stuff

01:22:36   that Casey loves about Google Photos,

01:22:38   just the basics of doing photos right

01:22:40   and having them in the cloud and everything,

01:22:41   took them so long to even get like sort of a passable level

01:22:45   of having things working and so many different tries.

01:22:48   And I guess, you know, cloud kit is an attempt

01:22:51   to do that type of infrastructure,

01:22:53   but it's like they're just taking too long

01:22:55   and they're moving too slowly

01:22:56   and everyone else is too far ahead of them.

01:22:57   Again, repeats of stuff I said last week,

01:22:59   but it's on my mind a lot

01:23:02   'cause I use a lot of Apple products.

01:23:03   And every time I think about,

01:23:05   I'm starting to think about are there aspects of my life

01:23:08   that I use Apple with that I would be better off

01:23:10   using someone else with.

01:23:12   Down to things like Google Photos

01:23:13   with Casey talking about that.

01:23:15   But all the way up to should I stop trying to use Siri

01:23:18   and should I use Google Now?

01:23:20   I'm not gonna go out and get an Android phone at this point,

01:23:22   but I already used Gmail for my mail.

01:23:24   I would never use Apple's mail system for my mail

01:23:26   for a variety of reasons.

01:23:28   Apple's losing on a lot of these fronts.

01:23:31   - Yeah, Google Photos, and I think I may have briefly

01:23:35   mentioned this last episode.

01:23:36   It's really rocked my world in a comfortable way because it really makes me wonder like,

01:23:43   am I missing out on just giving Google everything about everything and having that kind of intelligent

01:23:50   assistant thing for me?

01:23:54   Should I be looking at Android?

01:23:56   You should use the Gmail web interface because it knows when your flights are coming and

01:24:01   it puts a little thing there and you can unsubscribe to lists from like little buttons on your

01:24:05   like it does smart things with your email and gives you little buttons without having to go into them to

01:24:09   and it can put things on your calendar based on what's in there and that may sound annoying and everything but

01:24:14   It's it's actually really convenient

01:24:16   Yeah, Google Photos has shown me like if you're willing to give Google in this case all of your pictures

01:24:22   It's stunning how much intelligence they can provide you based on that, you know, if I want to search for

01:24:29   Picture taken on a patio

01:24:33   in 2012 I probably could search for that and it would probably find it pretty quickly. It's

01:24:39   unbelievable the things that can put together just from the metadata in my pictures.

01:24:44   And so it's not hard to extrapolate well if it's able to get all this from my pictures

01:24:49   what could it do with my email and

01:24:51   maybe with searches and things. And so on the one side every ounce of me is like no that's a terrible idea.

01:24:57   You don't want Google looking at all those things. And then the opposite side of me thinks

01:25:02   It is pretty damn convenient.

01:25:05   Is it really that big a deal?

01:25:06   I mean, they already have my email.

01:25:07   Why not take the rest?

01:25:09   So it's very weird what Google Photos has done

01:25:12   because it's really made me start thinking about

01:25:14   is it worth trading some of that privacy

01:25:16   and some of that data to get something

01:25:18   that is actually useful out of it.

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01:26:05   (upbeat music)

01:26:08   - I was gonna say one other thing that came up last week.

01:26:11   Again, I feel like I mentioned this to Marco and Slack.

01:26:14   I just feel the crushing invisibility of podcasts

01:26:17   'cause I feel like we had this discussion

01:26:19   on last week's ADB and nobody knew or cared.

01:26:22   Like it has to be written down somewhere

01:26:23   that people can link to before anyone cares about it.

01:26:26   But anyway, something else that was discussed last week

01:26:28   that I also saw written down in places

01:26:31   was I was reminiscing about the old days when

01:26:34   Apple and Google were friends.

01:26:35   And when Apple introduced the iPhone,

01:26:37   it was like we made this amazing hardware and this amazing OS

01:26:40   on this device that's like nothing you've ever seen before.

01:26:42   And it's powered by these Google services.

01:26:45   And what a great partnership isn't that?

01:26:47   Isn't that great?

01:26:47   We make the OS and the hardware, Google does the services.

01:26:50   And together, you have the best of all possible worlds.

01:26:53   Because we are the best at making hardware.

01:26:54   We are the best at making native client-side applications.

01:26:57   Google is the best at maps.

01:26:58   They're the best at online services.

01:27:00   They're the best at search.

01:27:01   And we're so integrated that we have--

01:27:03   our Maps application is essentially

01:27:05   Google's map application.

01:27:06   Google provides the data.

01:27:07   We wrote the application.

01:27:08   It's a marriage made in heaven.

01:27:10   And they got divorced, and we were all sad.

01:27:13   And I don't know if that's what we're moving towards,

01:27:15   if Apple can never figure this stuff out,

01:27:18   and if Google continues to not be

01:27:21   able to make the money in inroads

01:27:23   that it wants to from Android, and instead

01:27:25   the money from Android ends up going to other people.

01:27:27   Could we end up years and years down the road

01:27:29   where they come back to the table and say,

01:27:31   you know what, we should have never broken up.

01:27:34   I've learned that it's really hard to make money

01:27:35   selling hardware, especially when you give away the OS

01:27:37   for kind of free and in China, they make Android phones

01:27:41   without using any of the Google services.

01:27:43   And we kind of let this whole thing get away from us.

01:27:44   And Apple's like, we tried to make services,

01:27:46   but it's really hard and we're not good at it.

01:27:47   So why don't we just do what we're each good at

01:27:50   and together we can make a great phone platform

01:27:53   where Siri will be powered by Google Now

01:27:56   and iMessage will be replaced with a decent service

01:27:58   it doesn't send messages out of order and has actual new features in it.

01:28:01   But it'll be end-to-end encrypted and, you know, all this, like, I want the best of both

01:28:07   worlds.

01:28:08   And for a brief time, it seemed like that's what we were going to get until both Android

01:28:11   and Apple decided they were both going to do everything that the other person does,

01:28:14   only better.

01:28:15   And thus far, their strengths remain the same.

01:28:20   Google is getting better at hardware, Apple is getting better at services, but if you

01:28:23   were to lay them down again, you would say, "Who's the best at making hardware and operating

01:28:26   systems and all that stuff?"

01:28:27   Apple, who's the best at making services, still Google, so I don't know what the long-term

01:28:31   solution is. But as a customer and not someone who really cares about either one of those

01:28:36   two companies ruling the entire world, it would be nice if we could turn back the clock

01:28:40   on that relationship.

01:28:41   Well, the good thing is, like, I feel like, you know, if you look at the situation on

01:28:45   the Mac, you know, ignoring iOS for a second, look at the Mac. And on the Mac, you have

01:28:51   pretty much what you want.

01:28:53   You have tons of people who use Macs running Mac OS X

01:28:58   with all Apple stuff under it,

01:28:59   maybe even use iCloud for certain things,

01:29:02   but who use Chrome as their browser,

01:29:03   who use Gmail for their mail,

01:29:05   maybe have Google Photos, whatever,

01:29:06   uploader, however that works installed.

01:29:09   On the Mac, you have that world of choice

01:29:12   where you can totally be bought into the Google ecosystem

01:29:16   and still be using a Mac with Mac OS as your computer

01:29:19   and have all the Google stuff running there if you want it.

01:29:22   - They had Siri OS X though,

01:29:23   we're not gonna be able to replace it with Google now.

01:29:24   Like that's the strategy text type of thing,

01:29:26   where like, oh, well if you want a voice assistant

01:29:28   that helps you on your Mac,

01:29:30   you only get to choose the Apple one.

01:29:31   The only, it's almost like it's an accident of history.

01:29:33   - Well that's not true though.

01:29:34   Because on the Mac, you have like the system ability

01:29:38   for like, there's nothing stopping Google

01:29:40   from running their own daemon in the background

01:29:42   that's listening on the microphone for its own commands.

01:29:45   Like, on iOS that is not possible,

01:29:48   in the software environment.

01:29:50   - There's gonna be OS level integration though

01:29:52   that Siri's going to be favored with.

01:29:53   And I guess you could say like, yeah, on the Mac,

01:29:55   all is fair if you get admin access

01:29:57   and you could bypass the system integrity protection

01:30:00   and hack the finder and get your things into the Docker.

01:30:02   Like whatever, Apple always still has an advantage.

01:30:05   Even for things like Spotlight and stuff like that,

01:30:07   like Google tried, didn't Google have

01:30:09   like a Spotlight competitor that was trying

01:30:10   to use the public APIs to do stuff like that?

01:30:13   It's really hard.

01:30:15   And that's what I'm saying,

01:30:16   like it's almost an accident of history

01:30:17   that the web browsers can,

01:30:18   'cause a web browser is just a plain old application.

01:30:20   And so there's no real barrier to entry there,

01:30:22   especially since Apple still has the way for you

01:30:24   to pick what your default browser is on the Mac,

01:30:26   unlike iOS.

01:30:27   But as you get more and more integrated

01:30:28   into sort of system components,

01:30:29   it becomes harder for any third party,

01:30:32   no matter how good they are,

01:30:33   to compete with the built-in one.

01:30:34   Not only because it's built-in,

01:30:36   but also because there are deep hooks

01:30:38   that you can't get at,

01:30:39   or you can only get at doing nasty hacks

01:30:41   that you have to maintain.

01:30:42   And so in practice, it's really hard,

01:30:45   no matter how bad Spotlight is,

01:30:46   and no matter how good Google's thing could have been,

01:30:48   it's been really hard for them to make a better spotlight.

01:30:51   And I imagine Siri will be similar,

01:30:53   it will be harder for them to integrate their voice up.

01:30:56   And then on iOS, forget it,

01:30:57   you don't have a choice of so many things,

01:30:58   you can't change the default to anything,

01:31:00   and it's just frustrating.

01:31:03   - But I think on the Mac, I think the gap there

01:31:06   between what we have possible now

01:31:10   and the world you imagine as the ideal world here,

01:31:13   that gap is pretty small.

01:31:15   I think we're almost there, we're pretty much there now.

01:31:18   Where if Google wants to make all their stuff for Mac OS X

01:31:22   and integrate their own alternatives

01:31:23   in as many ways as they possibly can,

01:31:26   there are lots of ways to do that right now.

01:31:27   And that's pretty much possible now,

01:31:29   and in many ways it's already done.

01:31:31   Things like Chrome and Gmail and stuff like that.

01:31:33   That's pretty much done.

01:31:34   - But I'm worried about it actually getting worse.

01:31:37   It's the next topic that we probably won't have time

01:31:38   to get to in this show, but the next topic

01:31:40   maybe we'll get to next week is about

01:31:41   Chromebooks outselling Macs in school.

01:31:43   The problem is that Google, because Apple and Google both want to do everything that

01:31:46   everybody does, Google's like, "We should sell laptops, and we should have..."

01:31:50   And it's like, "Well, we don't have a desktop OS.

01:31:52   What should we do?"

01:31:53   Well, can we make a Chrome OS, or can we put Android on Chromebooks?

01:31:57   We have an OS.

01:31:58   It's not really a desktop OS, but maybe that everyone wants to be in everything.

01:32:01   It's almost kind of like only by the good graces of Google, that Google is so nice to...

01:32:06   Not that they're doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

01:32:08   They want our information and our eyeballs, everything else, whatever.

01:32:11   they make their applications for iOS and for the Mac.

01:32:16   Apple is not making FaceTime for Android.

01:32:19   You know, like it's not an open standard that ever,

01:32:21   you know, can't go back to that.

01:32:23   Well, but like Apple keeps itself to its,

01:32:24   it's stuff to its own platform when it's feasible,

01:32:26   whereas Google, it's more important

01:32:28   to get its thing everywhere.

01:32:29   So we are blessed with these gifts from Google,

01:32:33   but like, oh, I can use, you know,

01:32:35   there's a native quote unquote,

01:32:36   native Gmail application for iOS,

01:32:38   and there's Google Now and there's Google Maps for iOS,

01:32:41   even though Apple took the mapping thing back

01:32:43   and did their own native thing.

01:32:44   And I worry that someday, like the Cold War

01:32:46   will get even colder and Google will start behaving

01:32:49   even more like Apple and will be even more siloed

01:32:51   and then the Mac will be, like even the things we enjoy now

01:32:55   will be pulled away from me.

01:32:56   And I feel like with system integrity protection

01:32:58   and other things, it's getting farther and farther away

01:33:01   from the world where anybody could compete

01:33:02   with built-in Apple stuff.

01:33:04   All you can really compete with is Apple applications.

01:33:06   - Yeah, but I feel like Google and Apple

01:33:10   are both under different leadership

01:33:12   than where they were when this feud

01:33:14   really was at its hottest.

01:33:16   And I think you can look at both companies now

01:33:20   and see that they're very pragmatic

01:33:22   in a lot of their decisions.

01:33:25   And I don't think you're ever gonna see

01:33:27   some kind of grand reunification

01:33:30   where Tim Cook comes out and is like,

01:33:32   "Oh, now we've partnered with Google to replace."

01:33:35   You're never gonna see that,

01:33:36   but I think what you will see is Apple

01:33:39   kind of like yielding certain ground

01:33:41   to enable people to do that kind of thing if they want to.

01:33:44   So, you know, I'm not saying they're gonna suddenly

01:33:47   have everything this fall where like,

01:33:49   oh, you can set your default mail to be Gmail,

01:33:51   you can set your default browser to be a Chromic.

01:33:53   I expect we probably will get to that type of thing

01:33:58   slowly over time as the market kind of

01:34:01   directs Apple to do that.

01:34:02   Like, you know, there's enough demand now.

01:34:05   Like Apple now offers their own versions

01:34:08   of all these different services.

01:34:09   Google's offering their versions of all these

01:34:11   different OS's and hardware and stuff.

01:34:13   So you're right, there's a lot of duplication here.

01:34:15   And that's great because the people who really love Google

01:34:17   can go buy a Chromebook or whatever,

01:34:19   an Android phone and get all their Google stuff.

01:34:21   The people who really love Apple can go buy Apple hardware,

01:34:24   run Apple software, run all Apple services.

01:34:26   Most people are somewhere in the middle.

01:34:28   Most people love some stuff from multiple companies

01:34:31   and aren't purists of either company or any company.

01:34:34   So the more that both companies do to address that giant

01:34:38   middle where most of the customers are, the more they both

01:34:44   really benefit.

01:34:45   And both companies' leadership are smart enough to know that

01:34:47   and they're also, I think, realizing, in the same way

01:34:51   when Steve came back and gave that big speech with

01:34:53   Bill Gates on the big screen and said, for Apple to win,

01:34:57   Microsoft doesn't have to lose or vice versa,

01:35:00   whatever that quote was, I think Tim Cook knows

01:35:03   that even though it's pretty clear that like,

01:35:06   he obviously thinks a lot of what Google does

01:35:09   is distasteful and he's right,

01:35:10   and Google obviously thinks a lot of what Apple does

01:35:12   is arrogant and technically inferior, and they're right,

01:35:17   but the reality is I think both companies,

01:35:19   Google knows that as a services company,

01:35:21   it has to be everywhere, it has to be where the people are,

01:35:24   and a lot of the people are on Apple stuff.

01:35:26   And Apple knows that a lot of its customers

01:35:29   who buy its devices really want to use

01:35:31   some of Google's stuff on them.

01:35:33   So they're both gonna address that.

01:35:35   They're not gonna let that demand go totally unanswered

01:35:38   in the name of like spite over a 10 year old battle

01:35:43   that neither company's CEO was really part of.

01:35:47   - Well, but the thing that's motivating,

01:35:49   seems to be motivating Apple now to bestow its gifts

01:35:54   onto other platforms is the things that are services

01:35:56   like Apple Music.

01:35:57   This is Apple Music for Android, right?

01:35:59   - Yeah. - Am I not imagining that?

01:36:00   - Yes, there is.

01:36:01   because apple music is a service once

01:36:04   for products that are like services

01:36:07   you end up using the google rationale well it's a service and the most

01:36:10   important thing is that we have a lot of customers so it has to be everywhere

01:36:14   right same thing that motivated itunes for windows

01:36:17   like it

01:36:18   when you're in the service mindset for your service products the calculus is

01:36:22   different and you end up putting it everywhere

01:36:24   uh... but the other calculus when it is like this is the reason someone would

01:36:29   buy a mac we know

01:36:30   or this is the reason someone will buy a phone,

01:36:32   we use FaceTime or whatever,

01:36:33   when it's more linked to hardware, software,

01:36:36   proprietary platforms where it's not a service,

01:36:38   where your main goal isn't to get everyone

01:36:40   in the world using it, you want people to buy iPhones,

01:36:42   you want people to buy Macs

01:36:44   when it's like your hardware business,

01:36:45   then the opposite motivation comes in.

01:36:47   So Apple is getting a little bit of the services motivation

01:36:50   saying, if we have services products,

01:36:52   we need to have them more than just on our platforms

01:36:54   if you want a large customer base.

01:36:56   And again, Google,

01:36:57   because they wanna do everything Apple does,

01:36:58   is starting to make hardware products

01:37:00   and I wonder if they say, well, normally,

01:37:02   our culture and our motivation,

01:37:04   everything we do as Google is get as many users as possible

01:37:06   because their data is the most important thing to us

01:37:08   and we can sell based on them and blah, blah, blah.

01:37:10   But when we do these hardware products,

01:37:12   if we actually want to,

01:37:14   if we can overcome our own company culture

01:37:16   and motivate these hardware products,

01:37:18   like to say, you have to make a great product

01:37:20   that people wanna buy and we didn't wanna sell

01:37:22   a lot of them, you have to think in a different mindset.

01:37:24   Thus far, Google has not been able to get into that mindset,

01:37:26   which is why most of their hardware

01:37:27   has not sold like hotcakes, right?

01:37:30   And thus far, mostly Apple's not been able

01:37:32   to get into the right mindset

01:37:33   to be really successful at services either.

01:37:35   So as Apple learns, if Google continues to learn too,

01:37:40   it will mean that they will start doing some of the things

01:37:42   that I don't like about Apple not sharing their stuff.

01:37:44   So I'm not sure the net sharing between them will be better.

01:37:46   I think the only thing that is going to make

01:37:49   the net sharing between them improve

01:37:51   is for the power balance to shift.

01:37:53   Kind of the same way that the net sharing

01:37:55   between Apple and Microsoft

01:37:57   really started to move once the parents' power balance

01:37:59   shifted, once Apple was almost going out of business,

01:38:01   Microsoft was like, "Aw, Apple, I remember them.

01:38:04   "All right, we'll make Office for you.

01:38:06   "Here's $150 million, we'll sell our shares too early

01:38:08   "and regret it."

01:38:09   (laughing)

01:38:12   I think someone did the math of what that would be worth

01:38:13   if they had kept it.

01:38:14   Anyway, if the power balance is way off,

01:38:17   suddenly you can come to the table,

01:38:19   or right around, it's like the cold war,

01:38:20   where everyone wants to show strength,

01:38:23   everyone wants to do anything,

01:38:25   And it's not a particularly comfortable time.

01:38:27   But you're right.

01:38:28   In the meantime, I will continue to use Chrome and Safari

01:38:31   and the Gmail and the web interface.

01:38:34   What else do I use from Google?

01:38:36   Google Drive, Google Docs.

01:38:38   We're using it right now for the show notes

01:38:40   that Marco's not looking at.

01:38:42   The Google search engine.

01:38:44   Google Maps.

01:38:44   Google search engine, obviously.

01:38:46   It's a mix.

01:38:47   But on iOS, definitely, it's much harder to achieve that mix.

01:38:50   And I worry about the mix.

01:38:51   And what I'm saying is I look forward

01:38:52   to the time that this balance shifts in some way

01:38:55   and the companies can go back, can get out from this sort of megalomaniacal mindset that

01:39:01   the old Microsoft mindset that not only can we do everything because we are the mighty

01:39:06   insert company name, we should do everything and we're going to be awesome at it.

01:39:10   And that's a bad attitude for any company, Google, Apple or anything and it mostly leads

01:39:14   to bad things.

01:39:15   But the iPhone is a rising tide that lifts a hell of a lot of boats and so far Apple

01:39:21   is not feeling this thing from that.

01:39:22   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Fracture, FreshBooks, and Hover.

01:39:27   We will see you next week.

01:39:28   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:39:35   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:39:41   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:39:46   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:39:51   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:39:56   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:40:06   So that's Kasey Liszt, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:40:10   Auntie Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C

01:40:16   USA, Syracuse, it's accidental

01:40:21   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:40:24   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:25   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:26   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:40:28   ♪ So long ♪

01:40:30   - Man, I feel like Casey,

01:40:32   I feel like I have to save you in some way

01:40:35   from tripping and falling into Android.

01:40:38   In the same way, remember about two years ago,

01:40:42   you started talking about not wanting a BMW,

01:40:46   but instead wanting one of those weird, sporty new Cadillacs

01:40:49   that's like all straight lines and angles.

01:40:52   And I'm like, you look at that and you're like,

01:40:54   I was like, just no, I have to save you.

01:40:56   Back away from this cliff,

01:40:57   I'm like holding the back of your shirt.

01:40:59   Like, no, I'm not gonna let you go over this cliff.

01:41:00   Like you are not doing, trust me,

01:41:02   you will thank me later, you're not doing this, right?

01:41:05   I feel like this might be that moment for tripping

01:41:07   and falling into the Google pit of insanity here.

01:41:11   - I know you're being silly, but--

01:41:14   - Only a little bit.

01:41:15   - And I'm not actually looking to buy an Android

01:41:19   or anything, but it is striking to me how me, I guess I could say forced, I mean I don't have to

01:41:29   be a Google Photos user, but you know Picture Life is a dumpster fire and Everpix is dead and so,

01:41:37   and I don't particularly care for Flickr, just me, you may love it, that's fine, but I backed into

01:41:43   Google Photos and then I started to just really love what it was providing and it's really made me

01:41:49   me, like I said earlier, kind of question, am I holding on to Apple being the best thing

01:41:54   ever because it's just what I'm used to?

01:41:57   And I don't think so.

01:41:58   And I think that if I were to go Android, it would be death by a thousand very, very

01:42:02   deep and very wide paper cuts.

01:42:05   But nevertheless, it's made me think.

01:42:07   And then there was that great episode of Connected this week where Federico got himself an Android

01:42:13   phone and had positive things to say.

01:42:15   And I think his experience is probably what mine would be, in that, you know, there's

01:42:23   a lot here to like, but it's not enough to sway me.

01:42:29   But man, it's stunned me how much I've just like subconsciously been thinking, "Man, this

01:42:35   is really convenient."

01:42:37   And all I've given them is photos.

01:42:39   Now granted, it's tied to my ID that probably has everything I've ever done on the internet

01:42:43   ever.

01:42:44   But all I've knowingly given them is my photos

01:42:47   and the stuff that they can put together is just stunning.

01:42:50   - No, I mean, I think what you're doing now,

01:42:55   which is using Apple hardware and OSs,

01:42:58   but using selectively the Google things

01:43:00   that you like best on them,

01:43:02   that is generally the best combo for most people, I think.

01:43:06   - Yeah, I agree.

01:43:07   - Well, even with photos though,

01:43:08   don't you feel the pain of iOS integration?

01:43:11   One of the main reasons I'm sticking with Apple Photos

01:43:13   is, well, part of it is I'm actually hoping they're gonna get on the ball and start integrating

01:43:17   some of these features like the rumors say. But the other thing is like, it's integrated

01:43:20   with your phone and the native photos application has this stuff. And I don't know, maybe I

01:43:23   think there's a bigger barrier than there really is to like, what if I just don't use

01:43:28   the Apple Photos application? Does the photo picker always show you only Apple photos from

01:43:32   the thing or did?

01:43:33   Yes, the way I think the problem is my mental model, for better or worse, is that the pictures

01:43:41   that are on my phone in like the photos stock photos app those are the pictures

01:43:46   that were generated on that phone or have been beamed to that phone via

01:43:52   airdrop or Wi-Fi from the big camera or something like that but it's not all

01:43:55   your photos correct and to me something else outside of the stock photos app is

01:44:01   all of my photos and it was picture life and now it's Google Photos now I'm not

01:44:06   saying that's right I'm not saying that that's how you would treat it but that's

01:44:09   That's the way I like to treat it.

01:44:10   But do you have share sheet?

01:44:11   I guess you have with extensions.

01:44:12   Don't you have a share sheet?

01:44:13   Like say you want to tweet something and you want to tweet and it's a picture from like

01:44:16   three years ago that's in your All My Photos collection.

01:44:20   When you tap the little camera icon in your Twitter application of choice, does it bring

01:44:24   up a photo picker?

01:44:25   Do you have the option to picking from your Google Photos or do you only get to pick from

01:44:28   the phone things?

01:44:29   I think only the phone things, but my workflow, let me see.

01:44:33   Yeah, so on Tweetbot I can only choose from library.

01:44:37   But my workflow would have been, if I were to do something like that, find the photo

01:44:43   on Google Photos, download it onto my phone, and then take it from there.

01:44:47   Yeah, no, I mean, I want it to work both ways.

01:44:49   Like I said, it's either a real or perceived barrier to the fact that Apple's photos are

01:44:55   integrated into iOS in the most convenient possible way, and all third-party things are

01:45:00   slightly less convenient or that I have to think about more or whatever.

01:45:03   And that's another area where eventually, like Marco said, it could be that the sort

01:45:06   of detente comes in and they start allowing you to pick, "Hey, what do you use for your

01:45:12   photos?"

01:45:13   And it just has to be conformant to this particular interface or API or whatever.

01:45:18   And then when you say, "Pick photos," we won't just show you your collection of quote-unquote

01:45:22   Apple photos.

01:45:23   Same thing with contacts, same thing with everything else.

01:45:24   Although contacts is different because Apple actually gives you access to the underlying

01:45:27   data from any application, so you can use different calendars and stuff.

01:45:30   What I'm saying is I'm sticking with the Apple apps in a lot of cases, not because I think

01:45:35   they're the best, because I would like to try Google Photos, but I know that I can't

01:45:39   try Google Photos without having a split-brain situation where now I have two collections

01:45:43   of photos to manage and I'm not going to do that.

01:45:45   So I just have the one collection and maybe I would upload them as a redundant backup.

01:45:51   I think I'm still paying for a terabyte of Google storage for various reasons.

01:45:55   But yeah, it's a barrier.

01:45:58   It's a barrier to me trying what is almost certainly a product that I would enjoy more

01:46:02   than what I'm using.

01:46:03   And also I have to say, a lack of a really cool native application like Photos is a barrier.

01:46:07   The Photos drives me up a wall, but there is no equivalent to that for Google Photos

01:46:11   as far as I'm aware.

01:46:12   Well, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down.

01:46:13   Well, what are you looking for?

01:46:15   Because there's absolutely a native app, but it may not do the sorts of things that you

01:46:18   want it to do.

01:46:19   Yeah, I mean like the Photos application, like with all the adjustments and all the

01:46:23   like, it's not that they're fancy, but it's a native application rather than a weird web

01:46:26   interface and it has all sorts of, you know, photo-arranging and printing, you know, booklets

01:46:32   and doing all the stuff that, like, iPhoto used to and that photo still sort of does.

01:46:36   Yeah, so it does a lot, but not all of that. So it is native and I'm sure, knowing that,

01:46:41   given that it's Google, I'm sure there's web views that I'm just not realizing, but it

01:46:45   doesn't feel like they're web views. It feels, honest to goodness, native. You can do some

01:46:51   modifications but here again, that's not something I typically do on my phone, even in the photos

01:46:56   apps, so that's not an itch I need to scratch.

01:47:00   I'm talking about the Mac app, not the iOS app.

01:47:03   Oh, I'm sorry.

01:47:04   Yeah, on the desktop, you're absolutely right.

01:47:07   It's all web.

01:47:08   I thought you were talking about iOS.

01:47:10   No, that's what we're doing with the photos.

01:47:11   We're going to the 5K iMac and you load photos,

01:47:13   and that's how I sort through them to pick out the photos.

01:47:15   I gotcha, I gotcha.

01:47:15   So like, a yearly calendar and arranging things.

01:47:17   And I guess also photo stream.

01:47:19   And this is sort of a family inertia

01:47:20   in that we finally got everyone set up on photo stream,

01:47:22   so now when we post a picture, everyone can see it.

01:47:25   and it's so much better than every other system we've tried previously to get pictures of

01:47:29   like grandkids to grandparents.

01:47:31   This is the best system because we just do a thing and then a thing pops up and then

01:47:35   they see the thing and so much easier than sending them URLs or knowing when they need

01:47:39   to go there or whatever.

01:47:41   And again if we just got them onto the Google system they could do the same thing but it's

01:47:44   like well everyone's already set up with their iOS devices.

01:47:47   It's like it's platform inertia and lock-in keeping you away from superior applications.

01:47:51   are working sort of as designed for Apple, but I'm a little bit bitter about it.

01:47:56   Yeah, I think the problem is—I shouldn't say problem—but the difference between you

01:48:01   and I is a couple of things. One, I view the file system on my—actually, it's sitting

01:48:07   on the Synology, but effectively on the iMac—I view the file system as the canonical representation

01:48:12   of my photos. I don't use Photos app on the desktop. I actually really don't like

01:48:17   it very much at all. And so to me, Google Photos is just a portable search tool and

01:48:25   view into that repository. And that works really well for me. And I've always treated

01:48:33   my one true repository as segregated, like I was saying earlier, from the phone. And

01:48:40   that just works really well for me. Additionally, you do a lot more stuff with your photos than

01:48:45   I tend to. I'll share them on social media. I have a shared album for pictures that we

01:48:50   like of Declan that we've shared with friends and family like you guys. But I don't do a

01:48:55   whole lot of heavy photo editing. I think it was Marco or somebody taught me how to

01:48:59   do white balance correction for when I take pictures at night. That's like a big new advancement

01:49:03   for me.

01:49:04   I didn't teach you. I just said you should look into this. It makes a big difference

01:49:08   and it's not that hard.

01:49:09   Yeah. Well, okay. Maybe that's why.

01:49:10   That was like, when I first started taking decent photos,

01:49:13   or photos with decent cameras, like in 2006, 2007,

01:49:18   I look back at all those photos and they're all orange,

01:49:20   because I didn't know how to do white balance,

01:49:22   and I eventually learned white balance,

01:49:24   I'm like, oh, that makes a huge difference,

01:49:27   and I didn't know that for a very long time.

01:49:29   So I was basically trying to like,

01:49:30   jump you up the queue of learning how to do photo stuff.

01:49:33   Just be like, here, let me save you three years,

01:49:35   just look at white balance. - Exactly.

01:49:37   It absolutely did but you know, but I bring that up to say that that's about as heavy an edit as I usually get

01:49:43   We don't do the yearly calendar thing

01:49:45   We probably should and I'm jealous of your yearly calendars or like the underscores were showing us

01:49:50   We were up there this past weekend

01:49:51   They do yearly like photo books and we should do that

01:49:55   But I was asking I was asking Dave and Lauren, you know

01:50:00   How long does that take you and they said about a week week and a half every single year?

01:50:05   and I don't know how they find the time for it.

01:50:08   But I wish I had it, so I guess they make the time for it.

01:50:11   But I don't use photos heavily.

01:50:15   I find that for me, photos are just, I want to have them to help jog my memory.

01:50:20   I want to be able to get to a relatively arbitrary photo very quickly.

01:50:25   So oh, that restaurant we went to when we were on our trip to Paris.

01:50:29   I'd like a picture of that.

01:50:30   Well, I can just type in "Paris" in Google Photos.

01:50:34   And maybe you can do this in regular photos too.

01:50:35   In fact, I think you can.

01:50:36   But I could type in Paris in Google Photos.

01:50:39   - Only if it's geo tagged,

01:50:41   and only if you actually happen to be in Paris.

01:50:42   Like these are all things that,

01:50:44   like if Apple wants to catch up,

01:50:46   and if they're actually, you know,

01:50:47   of all these rumors are true,

01:50:48   they should show, hey, the next version of photos

01:50:50   knows what the hell's in your picture and can do something.

01:50:52   And then it's just a competition of who does it better.

01:50:54   Spoiler alert, it's gonna be Google.

01:50:55   But at least just having that feature

01:50:57   is better than not having it at all.

01:50:59   - Right, so here's a great example.

01:51:00   So earlier today, I forget why,

01:51:03   but I wanted to see if I had a picture of the Rotunda at UVA.

01:51:07   So UVA is the University of Virginia.

01:51:10   It's where Aaron went to school.

01:51:11   It's about an hour west of where we live.

01:51:13   And their most famous building is a building

01:51:18   called the Rotunda, which is modeled after the Pantheon

01:51:23   or Parthenon.

01:51:24   I always get it wrong.

01:51:25   I'm so sorry.

01:51:25   Please don't email me.

01:51:26   The Pentagon.

01:51:26   It's modeled.

01:51:27   Yeah, the Pentagon, totally.

01:51:29   It's modeled after one of those.

01:51:30   old kind of Greek-looking structure with the columns and all that.

01:51:35   Well anyway, so I did a search for "retunda," and I have not knowingly tagged these pictures

01:51:42   in any way.

01:51:43   It doesn't—oh, never mind, it does say "pretty retunda" on this picture.

01:51:46   Just kidding!

01:51:47   But this is a terrible example.

01:51:51   So the file name in this case did tag it, and my bad.

01:51:55   But I have seen other situations—just let's pretend that's not the case—I've seen

01:51:59   Maybe in other situations, when I haven't given Google any information about the photo,

01:52:05   but it has figured out, "Oh, this is the Rotunda."

01:52:09   Well, as an example, so the pictures of the Pantheon Parthenon, I always get it wrong,

01:52:14   we were there in Italy, I believe.

01:52:17   God, Federico's going to be so mad.

01:52:19   Anyway, point is, we were at the inspiration for the Rotunda, and I just did a search in

01:52:22   Google Photos for Rotunda, and one of the things that comes up are pictures of this

01:52:27   old, old, old ancient building, which looks just like the UVA rotunda.

01:52:31   So Google has said, presumably, "Hey, what does the UVA rotunda look like?

01:52:36   Oh, this looks like that.

01:52:38   Let's bubble these up as well."

01:52:40   And you could take this either way, right?

01:52:41   You could either say, "Well, this is a false positive," or you could take that as, "Well,

01:52:45   this is an ancillary picture that you may have wanted, so I'm going to give it to you

01:52:49   anyway."

01:52:50   And just that machine learning, which we heard a thousand times during Google I/O, it really

01:52:54   does freaking work.

01:52:55   And the fact that I can just search the word "retunda" and get not only pictures that we've

01:52:59   taken in front of the "retunda" but pictures we've taken in front of this other building,

01:53:04   I just find that to be amazing.

01:53:06   And it makes it so, so convenient.

01:53:10   Rather than having to think to myself, "All right, when were we in Paris?" or "When were

01:53:15   we in Rome?" or what have you.

01:53:17   "Ah, that was 2012.

01:53:18   Shoot, what month was it?"

01:53:20   "Ah, I think it was July."

01:53:21   "No, it was August."

01:53:22   Now I got to go through every picture in August to figure out where it was that we went to

01:53:27   Rome and now I got to search through, okay, which day was it in this week that we were

01:53:31   there?

01:53:32   Now granted, another approach could be what I suspect you do, Jon, which is to catalog

01:53:36   and tag and do a lot of this stuff by hand, but I don't have the patience for it.

01:53:41   And so I love that Google Photos can just figure it out for me.

01:53:44   Jon Streeter That's why I don't want to do all that work.

01:53:47   I would like a reliable way to do it.

01:53:48   Like I remember when Picasa came out with face detection, I'm like, "Oh, that's awesome,"

01:53:52   all they don't have it in Apple's photo as I wish they did and then Apple came

01:53:54   out with the feature I'm like yeah finally you caught up and then what face

01:53:57   detection brought was a fan spinning CPU grinding feature to iPhoto that

01:54:03   nevertheless failed to accomplish the task that I wanted it for which is

01:54:07   basically find me all the pictures of a particular person because you had to

01:54:11   train it and it would miss a bunch and bottom line is my manual tagging of

01:54:15   who's in what picture was better and faster and did not destroy my computer

01:54:20   during the process. So it's like you brought the feature but your

01:54:24   implementation is bad enough that manual tagging still wins. Whereas with the

01:54:27   Google thing there's no way I'm gonna tag everything like you know I'm not

01:54:32   gonna tag all the hugs and all like the the nighttime things and put geotags on

01:54:37   my you know pictures that don't have tags because they're from cameras that

01:54:40   don't have a GPS. I'm not gonna do that. If Google can do it it's not as if it's

01:54:44   competing with a better manual tagging alternative. It's competing with there's

01:54:47   There's no way in hell you could do this manually.

01:54:50   And so you're not comparing it to essentially 99% accuracy, you're comparing it to nothing.

01:54:55   You got nothing.

01:54:56   Now when I'm looking for pictures, like where is that picture of my television so I could

01:55:01   see what arrangement of AV equipment I had three years ago.

01:55:06   I just have to scroll.

01:55:07   I just have to scroll with my eyeballs and look at the date and say like, "This is around

01:55:11   last year."

01:55:12   And let me just sort of scroll through the pictures and look for something that looks

01:55:14   like a TV.

01:55:15   And sometimes you miss it.

01:55:16   just type TV and you know TV 2013 Google photos would do it photos on the Mac

01:55:24   will not yeah I just typed television 2013 and I'm looking at pictures I took

01:55:29   of our TV among other things of course you are anyway I like face recognition I

01:55:35   fully expect Apple to add this feature to photos I just hope they do better

01:55:39   this time than last time well the tough thing is how does how does photos get

01:55:44   better at figuring out what's in the photo because it does it can't really

01:55:50   aggregate what it learns over gajillions of photos it can just do a best guess

01:55:55   based on what's been programmed into the photos there has to be a server-side

01:55:59   component there has well right and then at that point how are they any better

01:56:03   than Google and if you put on your tinfoil hat I don't I don't consider it

01:56:08   bad or like apples got all my photos anyway where do you think they're all

01:56:11   stored there on Apple servers I don't I assume they're not even encrypted

01:56:14   They're just like, "I'm signing up to say, 'Here, Apple, take all my photos and start

01:56:18   them on your cloud infrastructure.

01:56:19   Now, Apple, you have all my photos, and I'm trusting you won't do anything nefarious with

01:56:23   them.'"

01:56:24   That's it.

01:56:25   That's the deal.

01:56:26   So that's not a hang-up for me at all.

01:56:27   They're like, "Oh, I don't want to give my photos to Google."

01:56:29   No, I'll gladly give them to Google.

01:56:30   The reasons I don't are for everything I just said, like iOS integration and sharing photos

01:56:34   with family and all that other stuff.

01:56:36   Yeah, so here's a great example.

01:56:37   So I typed in "Deckland List," and I've told Google—you know, it discovered that there

01:56:42   is someone who looks like this in a lot of pictures, and I told Google, "Okay, that's

01:56:47   Declan."

01:56:48   And so I typed in "Declan List, Beach, 2015."

01:56:52   And it came up with our beach trip from last year, but it interestingly also came up with

01:56:56   a shot of Declan sitting at a pumpkin patch where the ground was indistinguishable from

01:57:03   sand at a glance.

01:57:05   So it has looked at this picture and said, "Hmm, that looks to me to be a beach, that

01:57:10   looks to me like that's Declan in there and it is one of the results that came back. And

01:57:14   here again, like I said earlier, you could treat that as a false positive, but I think

01:57:17   it's great because it shows that there is some amount of like reasoning going into tagging

01:57:24   that picture as being at the beach. I don't know, it's good stuff. So it makes you wonder,

01:57:29   you know, hey, would it be cool if it just searched my email and said, hey, you know,

01:57:34   you better leave now for that flight that's coming up. And to be fair, what is, I forget

01:57:37   what they call it, but Apple's doing that now as well.

01:57:39   - Proactive or whatever.

01:57:40   - Yeah, yeah.

01:57:41   So like when I get in the car on the way home,

01:57:44   it'll say, it sees, the phone will see

01:57:47   that I've connected to a car Bluetooth,

01:57:49   and it'll say, well, about this time,

01:57:51   he tends to be heading to my home address,

01:57:53   and it'll tell me, oh, it'll be about eight minutes

01:57:55   to get you home.

01:57:56   Like that's awesome, and that's the same sort of thing

01:57:59   that I'm thinking about when I say,

01:58:00   oh, extrapolating Google Photos advantages out,

01:58:03   what could that get me?

01:58:05   And that sort of thing.

01:58:06   "Oh, I see you're in the car.

01:58:07   "I know what you're probably gonna do.

01:58:09   "It'll probably take you about 10 minutes."

01:58:11   That is awesome, and it doesn't have to be Google,

01:58:14   and it doesn't have to be server-side in every single case,

01:58:18   but I can see how in a lot of cases, like photos,

01:58:21   there are many advantages of it being server-side

01:58:24   from a company that does this sort

01:58:26   of machine learning all the time.

01:58:28   - Every time I get into my car,

01:58:30   Proactiv tells me how long it takes

01:58:31   to get to the chicken salad deli.

01:58:33   So it actually knows me pretty well.

01:58:34   - Are you being serious?

01:58:35   Does it really?

01:58:36   That's the main place you go.

01:58:38   I mean, I would argue it's probably working as designed.

01:58:42   It tells me the work one though, I think.

01:58:43   I feel like it tells me at times when it should know that I'm not going to work.

01:58:46   I don't know how it should know, like maybe it's a national holiday, maybe it's Christmas.

01:58:49   Oh, you get in the car, it's, you know, X number of minutes to work.

01:58:52   It's like, come on, it's Christmas, I'm not going to work.

01:58:53   [BEEP]