167: They’ve Opened the Door to Streakers


00:00:00   John, are you broke now? Did you get a ticket?

00:00:02   Well, talk about it on the show. Come on. That's the show.

00:00:05   [

00:00:09   [music]

00:00:09   So, how's things going, John? How was your vacation in California?

00:00:12   It was very Californian.

00:00:15   So you didn't really live in reality. Everywhere you went,

00:00:20   you just dropped hundred dollar bills like they were singles.

00:00:23   Sometimes it felt like that. There were expensive things there, but overall everything worked out.

00:00:29   I think I took every form of transportation except for a taxi.

00:00:32   I don't even know if they still have those in San Francisco.

00:00:34   I think they've been outlawed.

00:00:35   Yeah.

00:00:36   So the vacation was good.

00:00:37   You seem to hang out with most of the friends of the internet that I can think of that are in that

00:00:42   neck of the woods.

00:00:43   Yeah, we did all the touristy things that you can do in San Francisco.

00:00:46   You know, did bus tours.

00:00:48   Did you like Alcatraz?

00:00:49   Yeah, went to Alcatraz, rode on a cable car, went to the really windy street.

00:00:54   You know, did all the tourist things you can do.

00:00:57   I love that the tourist things in San Francisco are, "Ride on a really bad road, take mass

00:01:03   transit and go to jail."

00:01:04   I went to the woods, too.

00:01:08   And we went to beaches up and down the coast, and the beach in Santa Cruz and some other

00:01:12   beach that I don't know where it is, but it's got little tidal pools at the Pacific Ocean

00:01:16   stuff.

00:01:17   We went on a hike in Marin County, you know, just lots of things.

00:01:21   We fit a lot in in the short number of days we were there.

00:01:24   So as we record, it is Friday night, the 22nd.

00:01:29   We should probably talk about the elephant in the room.

00:01:31   WWDC ticket announcements are starting to trickle out as we record this.

00:01:36   How'd it go for you, Jon?

00:01:38   In the lead-up to this, I had some issues that I had to deal with, mostly of my own

00:01:42   creation.

00:01:43   But when you sign up for the lottery, this year it had the same message that they had

00:01:47   — I think it was the same message that they had in previous years.

00:01:49   But at any rate, the same reality is in previous years, which is if you enter the lottery and

00:01:55   you win the lottery, they attempt to charge your credit card at the moment they have decided

00:02:00   you've won the lottery.

00:02:01   And if that charge doesn't go through for some reason, they say, "Actually, you have

00:02:06   not won the lottery.

00:02:07   We're moving on to the next person."

00:02:09   Which is very bad.

00:02:10   It happened to a lot of people in the past, and Apple's been pretty good about trying

00:02:14   to go back and give them tickets later, but it's a really terrible system in that if they

00:02:19   pick your name out of the hat and is a winner of the lottery. They should give you a day

00:02:23   or two to sort out the payment situation. Now why might your credit card reject it?

00:02:28   Because your credit card company is fraud happy and it sees this big $1600 charge randomly

00:02:33   on a card and I don't know how their fraud detection works but if you trip your credit

00:02:36   card company's fraud detection, Apple will give your ticket to somebody else. They won't

00:02:41   say "well, it got rejected but will give you 24 to 48 hours to sort it out with your credit

00:02:45   card company." No, they just move on immediately. And so this year, same message. They said

00:02:49   just wanted you to know that if we fail to charge your credit card, we're taking your ticket away and giving it to someone else.

00:02:53   Which is terrible. It's just a terrible system.

00:02:55   It should be, again, 24 to 48 hours. Let the people sort out whether they can get it.

00:02:59   So I was afraid this would happen. When I signed up, I saw that the credit card I had in there is my traditional

00:03:04   "This is what I use to buy my max with" credit card, which also happens to be the traditional

00:03:09   "Apple cannot charge my credit card because the payment company rejected because it thinks it's fraud."

00:03:13   I bought so many thousands of dollars for the maximum. This one credit card, same number.

00:03:17   It's never been stolen on the internet, it's a miracle, right?

00:03:19   And year after year, every time I try to buy Apple equipment with it, they market it as fraud.

00:03:24   One of the things I suggest is, "Hey, Apple says this in their message,

00:03:27   you should call your credit card company and tell them to expect a $1,600 charge sometime

00:03:33   in the next, you know, between the 22nd and the 25th from," and they don't even tell you the name,

00:03:38   I guess just from an Apple computer.

00:03:39   So that's what some people have done, and again, people have done it

00:03:44   and called their credit card company and tell them, "Please don't reject my card.

00:03:46   there's going to be a charge and the credit card company will say, "Yep, thumbs up.

00:03:50   Don't worry, it'll go through," and that gets rejected because they're credit card

00:03:53   companies.

00:03:54   Well, and I think also like the whole thing about like calling your credit card company

00:03:57   to like pre-approve a big transaction, I think that's kind of like the door close button

00:04:02   on most elevators.

00:04:05   Their system is all like so advanced for fraud detection these days.

00:04:08   Like I'm pretty sure like when you call most credit card companies and tell them like,

00:04:12   "Oh, hey, whitelist this thing in the future that hasn't even happened yet," I don't

00:04:16   they even can do anything about that,

00:04:18   'cause the system is based mostly on like,

00:04:20   do you have a pre-approval,

00:04:21   or do you have an attempt for the charge?

00:04:23   And then do you have, do we issue a commit for the charge?

00:04:27   And if they don't have even the attempt for the charge,

00:04:29   I don't think the people on the phone

00:04:31   can even do anything about it.

00:04:33   - Yeah, it's funny you bring that up,

00:04:34   because last year I saw that same message,

00:04:37   and the fear was put in me,

00:04:39   and I called my credit card company,

00:04:42   and I got on the phone with them,

00:04:43   and I was like, hey, you know,

00:04:43   like to try to get this charge pre-approved. It's really important to me." And they basically,

00:04:49   in so many words, said, "Yeah, that's not a thing. We can't do that. Goodbye, clunk."

00:04:54   So this year, I did the same thing, and I called the credit card company, and I took

00:04:59   a different approach this time, and I said, "Hey, there's a really important charge that

00:05:03   may or may not be going through, and I'd really like to make sure that it doesn't get held

00:05:07   I can you like pre approve it or

00:05:10   Annotate my account in some way such that there's a note that this is acceptable

00:05:16   And so I eventually got pushed to the fraud department

00:05:19   Which makes sense because they're the ones who would keep track of this thing and I got on the phone with the the woman and she

00:05:25   Had said you know okay? Well. What are you trying to accomplish? Well? I'd like to pre approve this thing well

00:05:28   You have to understand like there's a lottery and if I win the lottery wait wait wait you're talking like some sort of gambling

00:05:33   Thing no no no no it's not gambling. It's

00:05:36   Alright, here's the thing. So there's this like conference. It's a nerd conference,

00:05:41   but it's really important to me and this and that and eventually she was like, okay. Too much information already.

00:05:45   Yeah, you've already lost. Yeah, so she was like, okay, whatever. So I've made a note and then I'm thinking to myself,

00:05:50   okay. Well, I don't know if it's relevant or not, but the charge would be from Apple.

00:05:57   Like she didn't even care who the charge is from. So I think you're right that she was like, yeah, okay, whatever.

00:06:00   That's great. Go away.

00:06:01   And then I by coincidence happened to see a friend of the show underscore David Smith for lunch today.

00:06:06   and he and I were talking about it and he immediately came to the same

00:06:10   conclusion that you guys did which is the one I eventually came to which was

00:06:12   oh yeah this is not a thing it's all automated there's nothing you can do

00:06:16   about it anyway good freaking luck. These charges look so suspicious also because

00:06:21   like it's $1,600 which is as much as a laptop costs from a company that if you

00:06:27   stole a credit card and you wanted to go get a quick win with something you could

00:06:30   quickly flip and sell you'd probably go buy a fancy technology product like a

00:06:34   fancy laptop from Apple. And so like I bet lots of fraudulent charges are for Apple.

00:06:40   It's also a card not present transaction because it's done online. So again, it's like if you

00:06:44   steal a credit card online, you're probably going to go try to place an order from the

00:06:48   Apple web store, which is exactly where these charges come from. And so it's like, and you're

00:06:54   calling up and saying like, this charge might happen. I can't even tell you that I'm definitely

00:06:59   trying it. I haven't tried it yet. This charge might happen in a few days. So you're basically

00:07:06   asking their fraud detection systems to completely go against all of their heuristics and instincts,

00:07:12   basically.

00:07:13   So the note the person made in your account, that's for other human beings to read. But

00:07:18   the thing that's going to reject your WWDC charge is not a human, and we'll never look

00:07:22   at that note, and therefore that note is meaningless.

00:07:24   I completely agree, and that's exactly what Underscored said as well. And I think you're

00:07:28   that it really was just so I could go to sleep at night, that if for some reason I

00:07:34   had a rejection, that I have done everything in my power to make sure that

00:07:39   this goes through. Which is to say I've wasted five minutes of my time and

00:07:42   several phone operators time. Yeah, so I had an alternate strategy suggested by

00:07:47   my wife, which was why don't you use the credit card that doesn't get rejected,

00:07:50   which is another one of our credit cards that historically speaking has not

00:07:54   gotten to me. They reject it every time we tried to buy expensive things with it.

00:07:57   I think we may have bought some Apple hardware with it.

00:08:00   In fact, I did buy some Apple hardware with it in California, which I'll talk about later.

00:08:06   And so I said that's a good idea.

00:08:08   So I went to go change the default credit card.

00:08:12   This is after I had entered the lottery, so already I'm nervous on my card.

00:08:14   I've already entered the lottery. It said that it was going to use that card.

00:08:16   I'm going to change a different card.

00:08:18   So I log in to that Apple ID and, have you seen the new site for developer.apple.com when you sign in?

00:08:25   this weird interface where everything is centered and it shows your certificates and your iTunes

00:08:28   connect account.

00:08:29   Anyway, there's an option to go edit your account or change your payment method and

00:08:33   that sends you to appleid.apple.com and it wants you to sign in there and enter my Apple

00:08:37   ID and try to sign in and it says, "This Apple ID is not an email address.

00:08:41   You cannot continue."

00:08:42   And I knew this day would come someday.

00:08:43   I have an Apple ID that is not an email address because I got it a really long time ago and

00:08:47   I've been using it for years and years, going to WWDC with it, doing all sorts of stuff

00:08:51   with it and many people I know who had non-email Apple IDs had gotten that same message many

00:08:58   years past and had to change it and so I'm thinking is this the right, the best time

00:09:03   to change my Apple ID from one that's not an email to one that's an email?

00:09:08   But I also want to change the payment method and this is the only, I tried many different

00:09:11   ways to get around this.

00:09:12   Can I get it my credit card information without going through this thing that demands that

00:09:16   I change it to an email?

00:09:18   Basically I gave up and said I have to change it to an email, so now my non-email Apple

00:09:21   ID is no more.

00:09:23   It has been converted to an email address, Apple ID, like the rest of the peons.

00:09:31   But I could get in to change my credit card, and I did, and I changed the credit card that

00:09:34   does not get rejected.

00:09:36   So that was all my prep, and I thought long and hard about should I just leave it the

00:09:40   way it is, or should I try to call somebody to get the credit card changed over the phone

00:09:45   while leaving my Apple ID?

00:09:46   Is it a good idea?

00:09:47   And that was most of the excitement and bother about it because I thought they were going

00:09:53   to tell us who got the ticket on the 25th, but I guess that's just the lower bound.

00:09:58   But I saw Marco talking in Slack about how he hadn't gotten an email about WWDC yet,

00:10:03   so I checked my email inbox, and lo and behold, I saw a $1,599 charge.

00:10:07   I do have a WWDC ticket, and then I had to scramble and buy plane tickets and do all

00:10:13   that other stuff.

00:10:14   So I'm going.

00:10:15   I will be there.

00:10:16   I will be there again. It will cost a tremendous amount of money. Still haven't decided which

00:10:20   hotel, which of the two hotel reservations I've made I'm going to keep and which one

00:10:24   I'm going to cancel. But one of them I will keep, so I will be there.

00:10:28   Yay! Alright!

00:10:31   So what else is going on these days? You guys have to answer, but your experience

00:10:37   has been like, "Did you win the ticket lottery?" Let's talk about anything else in the entire

00:10:41   world but that. Nope.

00:10:43   Yeah, I take it by your sadness that neither one of you got tickets in the lottery?

00:10:49   As we record, I have not received an email.

00:10:51   I have not received a "you got one" email and I have not received a "haha, tough nuggies"

00:10:54   email either.

00:10:55   Right, you've got until the 25th, technically, to see whether you get one.

00:10:58   Just because you don't have an email right now does not mean you're not going to get

00:11:00   a ticket in the lottery, because they have a three-day window there.

00:11:03   Yeah, it's probably not happening.

00:11:05   Now, I did not see any attempted charge against my card, although presumably I wouldn't even

00:11:10   see an attempted one unless it went through.

00:11:12   I did not see a charge go through.

00:11:15   But like I said, I haven't received the Screw You email yet.

00:11:18   My coworker Jamie, he did get one on the same master account.

00:11:24   Like we're two individuals, two members of the same group account.

00:11:28   He already got his, so I'm not too terribly hopeful.

00:11:32   But strictly speaking, I have until Monday afternoon to see.

00:11:37   But we'll see what happens.

00:11:39   I have not yet received any confirmation or denial.

00:11:41   Marco, I believe you're in the same boat.

00:11:43   - That is correct, I have seen no response

00:11:46   about my ticket status, and there are also,

00:11:49   I checked my bank and there is not a pending charge

00:11:52   on the credit card, so I've heard, you know,

00:11:57   like ATP tester in the chat is saying

00:12:01   that he asked around and that apparently

00:12:03   the charges are still being processed,

00:12:05   that like, it's not over yet, but I think it's probably over

00:12:10   And that's, you know, we talked about this

00:12:12   on Under the Radar this past week, or last week I guess.

00:12:15   I am totally fine going without a ticket.

00:12:19   Like, I would prefer to have a ticket,

00:12:21   but every year I think my need for it goes down.

00:12:26   And this year, if I don't get one

00:12:30   through the regular process like everybody else,

00:12:32   I think I'm just, like I'm not gonna like try

00:12:34   to pull strings or anything, or try to email around,

00:12:37   or email developer relations or whatever.

00:12:40   I don't think I'm gonna do any of that,

00:12:42   because if I can get one through the regular means,

00:12:45   that's great, but if I don't,

00:12:48   that's fine too, I'll let somebody else take it.

00:12:53   - So what do you think about,

00:12:54   we discussed this briefly in Slack,

00:12:55   but what do you think about the idea

00:12:57   that one or all of us should get tickets

00:13:00   because we have a podcast where we talk about Apple stuff,

00:13:02   in other words, us going as press

00:13:03   rather than as iOS developers or whatever,

00:13:06   because I think that is a perfectly legitimate reason

00:13:09   people to go to WWDC. In fact, I have in the past had press pass to WWDC for writing my

00:13:14   OS X reviews, which I'm no longer doing. But podcasts are a thing, and people interested

00:13:20   in technology listen to podcasts, and at the very least you would imagine, especially now

00:13:23   that they're holding the keynote in the big auditorium we'll talk about later, that there's

00:13:27   more room for press, you know, for the keynote at least, if not for the entire conference,

00:13:32   or maybe just for the first day things with the State of the Union and everything like

00:13:35   then why shouldn't somebody who has a reasonably popular Apple tech-related podcast be in the

00:13:42   running at least, be considered for press passes?

00:13:45   How many tech podcasts do get press passes to WWDC?

00:13:51   As far as I know, there aren't any, I'm not aware of any pure podcasts that get press

00:13:57   passes.

00:13:58   As in, there's not an associated website, it's not like, "Oh, I'm from the Verge cast,

00:14:02   but I'm part of the Verge, and the Verge gets press passes."

00:14:04   Like, just all you have is a podcast, kind of like we have.

00:14:06   There is no ATP website to speak of.

00:14:09   Marco's got his blog and we all have our own individual blogs and there's an ATP.fm

00:14:12   website for the podcast, but it's not like it's associated with a website that has

00:14:15   any appreciable traffic for just the show.

00:14:19   So why shouldn't there be a category of, you know, we're going to give press passes

00:14:25   to of course all the big publications and all the big websites, and also one or two

00:14:29   tech podcasts that we pick out of a hat or something?

00:14:32   I completely agree with you.

00:14:33   I don't think it's unreasonable, but clearly I'm extremely biased, and especially right

00:14:37   now because, although I'm not saying I'm going to pull a bunch of strings, because honestly

00:14:41   I don't think I even have strings to pull, but if strings were pulled on my behalf, people

00:14:45   of the internet, I wouldn't complain, because I'm still learning all this stuff, and I would

00:14:48   still, I would still love to get an actual ticket into the big show. I will be there

00:14:52   regardless, but I would love to have a ticket, especially since it is more pertinent to my

00:14:58   world than ever before.

00:14:59   No, I mean really, like, for, for, among the three of us, I think, Casey, you probably

00:15:04   have the biggest justification for going this year.

00:15:08   This year, yeah, I don't think we could say that in years past, but this year I would

00:15:11   agree. Although it's probably best that of any of us, Jon gets it, because all three

00:15:16   of us know that if Jon didn't get a ticket, there's no freaking way we would convince

00:15:20   him to go to San Francisco just for funsies.

00:15:22   Exactly. I was just there, too.

00:15:24   Exactly. Even more reason for you to tell us to kindly screw off.

00:15:28   - It is worth pointing out also that the press tickets,

00:15:31   like the people who cover the keynote for the press

00:15:35   who get press badges, first of all,

00:15:37   it's kind of an awesome gig 'cause you don't have to wait

00:15:38   in the four-hour-long line, but second of all,

00:15:42   those people do not get conference badges

00:15:45   for the rest of the conference.

00:15:46   It's only the keynote.

00:15:47   - In general, there are exceptions.

00:15:50   - Yeah, it's very rare to have an exception, though.

00:15:52   You know, it would be plausible and reasonable

00:15:55   for them to consider large tech podcasts

00:15:58   to cover their developer conference

00:16:00   to give them press passes,

00:16:01   but it wouldn't necessarily follow

00:16:02   that they would get conference tickets.

00:16:04   And the press passes tend to go out far later.

00:16:07   Like the press people aren't getting invited now.

00:16:10   They're probably gonna get invited

00:16:11   like two weeks before the event.

00:16:12   - Yeah, and in the old days,

00:16:14   it used to be that USA Today and the New York Times

00:16:17   and Time Magazine and stuff would get press passes,

00:16:20   but websites would not.

00:16:21   And then eventually, a couple of websites

00:16:23   became part of the blessed set that Apple PR chose to give passes to.

00:16:27   These days, it seems like it's mostly websites, and then of course paper publications or whatever.

00:16:32   So there is a progression of what are the entities that are allowed to get press passes,

00:16:40   what are they?

00:16:41   Are they newspapers, magazines, websites, podcasts?

00:16:44   I don't think they're in that group yet, but it's a natural progression from only inviting

00:16:48   paper publications to also including websites to eventually including podcasts, assuming

00:16:54   the audience of any podcast is big enough to warrant that.

00:16:56   Maybe ours isn't.

00:16:57   You know, I'm not saying that we, you know, that ATP needs to get some, but...

00:17:00   I am.

00:17:01   Yeah, I'll say that.

00:17:02   Yeah.

00:17:03   Come on, Jon, promote yourself.

00:17:04   Well, you got one.

00:17:05   You're fine.

00:17:06   Yeah, yeah, you don't care.

00:17:07   I mean, I got press pass with Ars Technica, but Ars Technica is a very big website, right?

00:17:10   And The Verge is a very big website, right?

00:17:12   Whereas any individual podcast can't really compare to the size of a very big website

00:17:16   like that.

00:17:17   Maybe there's some minimum number that they, you know, minimum audience size or whatever

00:17:22   that they want to do.

00:17:23   Anyway, I think if someone inside Apple's listening to this, that it would be silly

00:17:27   not to include podcasts in your list of entities who should get press passes for the keynote

00:17:31   in the first day, State of the Union stuff, because people listen to podcasts, people

00:17:35   like them, and they're just as legitimate form of coverage and discussion as anything

00:17:39   else.

00:17:40   I think it's also worth pointing out too that the watch event, the very first watch event

00:17:45   and went over this like September or November 2014, right?

00:17:49   - Something like that.

00:17:50   - And that was at the Bill Graham Auditorium also, actually.

00:17:53   But that very first watch event, at that event,

00:17:56   that was the first time where they really invited

00:17:58   a very broad swath of press,

00:18:00   and partly because they were going into a new category.

00:18:02   So they had like watch press, fashion press,

00:18:04   but that was also the first press event I know of

00:18:07   where they invited major YouTube tech people, like MKBHD.

00:18:11   It seems like they're breaking the YouTube barrier,

00:18:15   or the YouTube seal.

00:18:17   They're breaking the YouTube seal

00:18:19   in the last couple events recently.

00:18:21   At least they're really big ones.

00:18:23   So maybe podcasts have some hope.

00:18:25   I mean, unfortunately, podcasts are indeed older

00:18:28   than YouTube, but YouTube is way bigger than podcasts.

00:18:30   And MKBHD, his audience is probably 10 or 15 times

00:18:35   the size of ours at least.

00:18:36   It probably even more than that, I haven't looked recently.

00:18:38   - They're millions, they've got millions of viewers

00:18:40   on the YouTube channel, so yeah.

00:18:41   - Exactly, yeah, so there are lots of really popular

00:18:46   YouTubers who would, by raw numbers,

00:18:49   be ranked way above a tech podcast like ours.

00:18:53   But Apple PR also, it's not purely based on numbers,

00:18:56   it's partly based on who you know,

00:18:58   it's partly based on long established reputation,

00:19:03   and partly based on influence.

00:19:04   So somebody who has a relatively small readership,

00:19:07   but a high influence, like Jim Dalrymple is a great example.

00:19:10   Jim Dalrymple's site, if you look at his numbers

00:19:12   on his stats and sponsorship pages,

00:19:15   there are sites that get more than that

00:19:17   that don't get passes, but because he's so influential

00:19:21   and he's been around so long covering this stuff,

00:19:24   I think that helps him be included on those lists.

00:19:26   So it isn't all about numbers.

00:19:28   It is also about influence and relationships.

00:19:31   - Yeah, someone in the chat room was saying

00:19:33   that if they picked all three of us in ADP,

00:19:36   it would be like inside baseball, echo chamber,

00:19:39   favoritism or whatever like that's the job of PR the PR department

00:19:42   Yeah

00:19:42   That's job is to select which people and they that one possible PR strategies only invite people who you know

00:19:48   Love Apple. Is that the best PR strategy? Probably not but their whole job is to decide who to pick. Of course

00:19:54   It's all favoritism. It's who it's who it's who Apple PR favors and Apple PR if it's good will not only favor

00:20:00   You know people that love Apple they will try to have an even mix where they want a positive outcome

00:20:05   but they're not just gonna pick people who you know never say anything negative about Apple there

00:20:09   They're picking based on a complicated criteria, but is it is ultimately entirely their choice, right?

00:20:13   So there's no such thing as you know favoritism

00:20:16   It's there's it's not like there is no what is the opposite of favoritism that the government picks who gets to cover

00:20:22   You know, it's Apple's conference. It's Apple's conference of their PR people pick who gets press passes. That's it

00:20:28   There's no it's not a democracy

00:20:30   - Yeah, you know, so anyway.

00:20:32   - And I would imagine too, like the,

00:20:33   your ability to say negative things about Apple

00:20:37   and still get invited is probably correlated

00:20:40   to your age and size.

00:20:41   So like, you know, Joanna Stern can say

00:20:43   in the Wall Street Journal that the iPhone

00:20:45   doesn't have enough battery life.

00:20:47   But if we say that, that might hurt our chances

00:20:50   of getting in, you know, like, because we are not,

00:20:52   like, we're not the Wall Street Journal, you know?

00:20:55   - Yeah, thanks Marco.

00:20:56   - Yeah, sorry about that.

00:20:57   - Yeah, you ruined it for all of us.

00:20:58   - Well, John got in, so I'm just gonna do it for you, Casey.

00:21:00   - Sorry Casey.

00:21:01   I mean, like once you come out of the press realm

00:21:05   of talking about whether we should get passes

00:21:07   or press passes or whatever, then it just gets into,

00:21:09   okay, well, you're just another iOS developer

00:21:12   like everybody else.

00:21:12   And then I have no idea what algorithm

00:21:15   they used to randomly pick up.

00:21:16   I did not win the lottery last year or the year before that.

00:21:20   How many years has lottery been going?

00:21:22   - Three, I believe.

00:21:24   - So this is the first time I've ever actually won the lottery

00:21:26   all the other years I've got like,

00:21:27   you know, press pass and stuff.

00:21:28   So, you know, that's probability for you.

00:21:33   - Yeah, I should also note,

00:21:35   it is very clear on the WWDC website

00:21:39   where they go through the policies and whatnot,

00:21:42   that tickets are non-transferable.

00:21:44   You know, if somebody was kind enough to offer like,

00:21:48   "Hey, Marco or Casey, you can have my ticket

00:21:51   because I want you to have it even though, you know,

00:21:53   I want it."

00:21:55   It is possible to make that happen,

00:21:57   But basically what you have to do is ask Apple

00:22:00   and give them a pretty good reason.

00:22:03   And they have every right to say, "Ha ha, no."

00:22:06   So yeah, it seems like if Marco and I don't get them

00:22:11   sometime in the next few hours, or slash couple of days,

00:22:15   then we'll just be goofing off in San Francisco,

00:22:18   riding the cable cars, eating Rice-A-Roni.

00:22:20   - We will be sleeping in on Monday.

00:22:21   That's what we're gonna be doing.

00:22:23   - That is true, actually. - We're gonna be not waiting

00:22:24   on the freezing cold line at five a.m.

00:22:26   - Yeah, that is absolutely true.

00:22:28   And we'll be eating a lot of Rice-A-Roni

00:22:30   'cause it's a San Francisco treat, ding ding.

00:22:32   - Oh my God.

00:22:33   We couldn't even make that joke

00:22:36   'cause my kids have never seen that commercial.

00:22:38   (laughing)

00:22:39   - Oh goodness.

00:22:40   - That's right, your job as a parent is to make jokes

00:22:44   that are barely funny to begin with

00:22:45   that your kids won't even get.

00:22:47   - All right, well have fun, Jon.

00:22:48   It's cool, I'm actually gonna have a good time.

00:22:52   - You can come anyway, go to the Layers Conference

00:22:54   or something.

00:22:54   - That's probably what I'm gonna do.

00:22:55   - Actually, I don't think it's even been announced

00:22:58   officially yet, but--

00:23:00   - No, they've announced the dates.

00:23:01   There's no tickets yet, but the dates have been announced.

00:23:03   - Yeah, there's no tickets, yes, you can't buy tickets yet,

00:23:04   but I will be go, I think, I mean, if I don't get

00:23:08   a WBC ticket, I'll definitely be going to Layers,

00:23:10   and I think I'd even be going anyway.

00:23:11   Last year, I actually got both,

00:23:13   and I didn't regret that at all,

00:23:16   so I am looking forward to Layers this year.

00:23:19   So yeah, so I'll be there for that, at least,

00:23:20   and I already put the plane ticket,

00:23:21   I'm gonna be there the whole week,

00:23:23   So I'll see you there regardless of what happens.

00:23:27   Yeah, we're all going to be there.

00:23:28   Oh, and by the way, everyone's talking about this, but WWDC has been getting more and more

00:23:33   expensive.

00:23:34   There's a couple blog posts about how much more expensive it is in the past.

00:23:36   I think this is close to my limit of next year, if current trends continue, I may not

00:23:42   even enter the lottery because it is such a tremendous amount of money.

00:23:44   And I'm not writing an OS X review.

00:23:47   So I'm basically going for the purposes of this show and my own edification combination,

00:23:54   but boy it is a lot of money.

00:23:55   I look at how much money it's costing.

00:23:56   I roll in and I just think about what else I could do with that money.

00:24:00   As my wife reminds me, it will be tax deductible because this is a work thing, but boy it's

00:24:06   very difficult to justify as the price keeps going up.

00:24:10   Yeah, I mean especially like the hotel prices are probably the biggest chunk of it for most

00:24:14   people now unless you're flying from somewhere very far away but otherwise you're paying

00:24:19   almost $2,000 for the hotel in most cases.

00:24:21   Or more.

00:24:22   Or yeah, actually you could--

00:24:23   Depending on how far you're willing to walk and many other things.

00:24:26   Whether you require a bathroom and other such things that seem like they should be included.

00:24:31   Yeah, that's why I made multiple reservations so that I can just decide how much I want

00:24:37   to spend based on how far I want to walk and all sorts of other issues. And by the way,

00:24:41   Per people who don't know, I'm sure Marco covered this in the developing perspective

00:24:45   that I have not listened to.

00:24:46   Under the radar.

00:24:47   Developing perspective.

00:24:48   It's an understandable mistake.

00:24:49   One of those underscore shows about prep for WWDC and the thing that everybody in our circle

00:24:57   tends to do these days is try to figure out when WWDC is going to be based on reading

00:25:01   tea leaves and stuff and then just make hotel reservations many, many months in advance.

00:25:06   So I think I made my hotel reservations in January or February or something.

00:25:10   Yeah, I made mine in February.

00:25:12   Yeah, you can cancel hotel reservations without any cost in most hotels.

00:25:16   So you just guess and make a whole bunch of reservations for a whole bunch of weeks, and

00:25:19   when Apple announces it, you cancel all the other ones.

00:25:21   Yep, that's exactly what I did.

00:25:22   I booked in early February, ended up guessing correctly, which was excellent, and the bill

00:25:29   in early February for the hotel where we all tend to stay was $2,500, roughly.

00:25:35   And I actually went through and dug up what the bills were at this same hotel over the

00:25:39   last few years and wrote a blog post about this. And in 2013 it was $1,123.46, and as

00:25:46   I just said, in 2016 it's going to be thereabouts of $2,500. So if I were to get a ticket, which

00:25:53   I'm hoping but not expecting, then it's roughly $4,000 to go to—or excuse me, not even to

00:26:00   go there—to be in San Francisco, teleported by magic, to sleep there and then go to WWDC.

00:26:08   Now I have not eaten any dinners. I haven't actually made it to San Francisco yet. All I'm doing is sleeping and

00:26:16   going to the conference.

00:26:17   And I've looked at plane tickets.

00:26:19   I booked my outbound ticket because I knew I was going to be there for at least a couple days even without a

00:26:23   WWDC ticket. I have yet to book my return flight, but it should be about $500 old told.

00:26:29   So in case you were wondering, it costs about the same amount of money to be transported in a tube through space.

00:26:34   3,000 miles, whatever it is across the country.

00:26:38   as it does to sleep one night in San Francisco.

00:26:42   Actually, across the country and back, I should say,

00:26:44   is approximately the same as one night in San Francisco.

00:26:47   - Yeah, the joke we made last year is every night

00:26:49   you're there for WWDC, that's one Apple Watch.

00:26:51   Go to sleep, that's another Apple Watch.

00:26:52   Go to sleep, that's another Apple Watch.

00:26:53   Now it's gonna be, it's a little bit nicer

00:26:55   Apple Watch every night.

00:26:56   Soon we're gonna graduate to the stainless steel model

00:26:59   every night.

00:27:00   (laughing)

00:27:01   All right, now that I've gotten a ticket,

00:27:03   you can thank me for ensuring that there will be

00:27:06   no new file system this year.

00:27:07   And so if I didn't show up, they would definitely announce a new file system.

00:27:10   But because I'm going to be there, there will be no new file system this year.

00:27:13   2017, like I said, 2017, I won't get a ticket, and they'll release a new file system.

00:27:18   Maybe we'll get the Tester USB hub before then.

00:27:23   It's funny because I had said to a few people leading up to the WWDC tickets being announced,

00:27:29   you know, here it was, I've been 2011 through '15 inclusive, and every one of those years,

00:27:36   you would think, "Well, I kinda didn't have a lot of business being there."

00:27:39   Like I sorta did once ATP came, but in terms of my day-to-day job, I had no business being

00:27:44   there.

00:27:45   I was just very lucky.

00:27:46   And here it is.

00:27:47   I am now an honest-to-goodness iOS developer, and sitting here now, I do not have a WWDC

00:27:51   ticket.

00:27:52   The one time when it makes sense for me to have one.

00:27:53   I don't.

00:27:54   It's okay, though.

00:27:55   I'll be okay.

00:27:56   Our first sponsor this week is Fracture.

00:28:01   Fracture is a company that prints photos directly on glass in vivid colors.

00:28:05   These colors pop like you won't believe.

00:28:07   And all fracture prints come on solid backings

00:28:10   that are ready to mount right out of the package.

00:28:12   All you do is stick the included screw in the wall

00:28:14   and hang it up.

00:28:15   That's it.

00:28:16   It's really affordable too,

00:28:17   but the price is starting at just $15

00:28:19   for a small square fracture print.

00:28:21   And of course they have rectangles too

00:28:22   if you're not part of the Instagram generation.

00:28:24   And they have all sorts of sizes up from there.

00:28:27   And the prices here are very reasonable.

00:28:29   I have these all over my office.

00:28:30   We get compliments on our fracture prints all the time

00:28:33   because they look great.

00:28:34   and they are so modern looking.

00:28:37   It's just a piece of glass

00:28:39   with the photo printed edge to edge.

00:28:41   And that's it, there's no frame around it,

00:28:43   there's no border around it.

00:28:45   And there doesn't need to be,

00:28:46   I think it would look weird if it had one.

00:28:47   These things just look like pure photos

00:28:50   in a nice modern print.

00:28:52   You don't have to worry about framing.

00:28:53   They're lightweight, you don't have to worry about

00:28:55   like trying to hang like a really heavy duty hook

00:28:57   in the wall to hold this thing up.

00:28:59   They're just great, I love these Fracture prints.

00:29:02   So check it out, they make great gifts also.

00:29:04   I've sent them to a number of people, relatives, friends,

00:29:07   things like a picture of your kid,

00:29:09   if you're sending it to your parents or something like that.

00:29:12   These things make great gifts.

00:29:13   Even the gag gifts send it to your friends.

00:29:16   If you go on a trip with your friends,

00:29:17   you wanna send pictures afterwards.

00:29:19   Any kind of holiday or celebrating birthdays,

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00:29:23   Or just buy them for your own house

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00:29:28   So check out Fracture today.

00:29:31   go to fractureme.com and use code ATP10 to get 10% off.

00:29:36   So thanks a lot to Fracture for sponsoring our show.

00:29:40   Once again, go to fractureme.com,

00:29:41   use code ATP10 for 10% off.

00:29:44   Thank you very much.

00:29:45   (chime)

00:29:46   - We should probably do what is indisputedly follow up,

00:29:49   and we should talk about what a friend of the show,

00:29:51   Matt and Reese, has written in regarding.

00:29:53   - This was about the charging stations again,

00:29:56   Tesla versus other.

00:29:57   He was pointing out the standard charging connector

00:29:58   that we talked about last show.

00:30:00   and he says where he is in Austin, Texas.

00:30:02   There are hundreds of what he calls level two

00:30:04   charging stations in Austin alone.

00:30:06   Chargepoint.com lists 27,000 total

00:30:08   vastly outnumbering superchargers.

00:30:10   So these are not the super fast, supercharged things

00:30:13   for Tesla or otherwise, they're just kind of like

00:30:16   plug your car in while you're shopping

00:30:18   or while you're at work or whatever.

00:30:19   So they charge more slowly,

00:30:20   but there are many, many more of them.

00:30:21   Some of them are free,

00:30:22   some of them charge an hourly rate or whatever.

00:30:24   He says, I have a lot of respect for Tesla

00:30:25   trying to solve the road trip problem.

00:30:27   It's ambitious and the kind of thing

00:30:28   that no car company would do.

00:30:29   no other car company would do.

00:30:31   But they're also doing a good job

00:30:32   of having destination charges at hotels.

00:30:34   And I'm seeing great progress on the infrastructure

00:30:36   you actually need day to day within cities

00:30:38   and those aren't from Tesla.

00:30:39   So we talked so much about Tesla and their superchargers,

00:30:42   but it's important to acknowledge,

00:30:43   and I see this too at the mall and stuff,

00:30:44   that there are tons of electric car park here,

00:30:47   parking spots, and I guess those all have

00:30:48   the standard SAE connector in them.

00:30:50   And no, they don't charge as fast as the superchargers do.

00:30:52   That's why the superchargers are super,

00:30:54   but there's way, way more of them.

00:30:56   - Excellent.

00:30:57   should also talk about and we made reference to him earlier MKBHD. Yeah now that we're all jealous

00:31:03   of the press pass that he's getting and we're not we should take this time to dance on his

00:31:07   self-inflicted grave is that no mixing metaphor sorry. Wait what happened I missed this. Oh quote

00:31:12   me? Yeah he did to his credit he tweeted this himself this is a tweet from him he says me in

00:31:17   2015 I guarantee the next-gen macbook will have at least two USB-C ports and then he put me right

00:31:22   now because of course the new macbook was updated talk about that a little later it does not have

00:31:27   have two USB-C ports. Last year, whenever he made that video, he was very adamant that

00:31:33   it will have more than one "quote me," he said, and I believe we had to chuckle about

00:31:38   it on the show because it's totally an Apple thing to do to not add one more port. Despite

00:31:43   the fact that we had like 17 episodes of ATP talking about this one port, we were not convinced,

00:31:49   I don't think, if my recollection serves.

00:31:50   And now it's going to be 18.

00:31:52   that Apple was going to change their mind.

00:31:55   Just because we want more than one port

00:31:57   doesn't mean Apple does.

00:31:58   And lo and behold, there's a new MacBook out.

00:32:00   It does not have more than one port.

00:32:02   MKBHD called himself on it.

00:32:04   To his credit, we will put the links in the show notes.

00:32:07   So, and also I think he ran out of room in the tweet

00:32:10   because in the tweet he said,

00:32:11   "I guarantee the next-gen MacBook."

00:32:13   In the actual quote he said,

00:32:14   "I pretty much guarantee the second generation of this

00:32:17   than my new MacBook out."

00:32:18   So he said pretty much.

00:32:19   So he had a waffle word in there.

00:32:20   So he's learning, learning the ways of the--

00:32:22   word.

00:32:23   Learning the ways of the waffle words. He said, "Pretty much guaranteed," which is

00:32:26   not the same as a guarantee. It's like virtually spotless. Your dishes will have spots. So,

00:32:31   anyway, I gave him a pass. I also agree that they should have more than one port, as previously

00:32:38   discussed, but they don't.

00:32:39   Yeah, I mean, something tells me that we have more to learn from MKBHD than he has to learn

00:32:44   from us. But I think, you know, we've seen a lot of comments since they, so Apple updated

00:32:53   the MacBook One, the 12-inch MacBook, which I call the MacBook One, which actually that

00:32:57   name has stuck around in our circle. I'm actually very proud of that. So Apple has updated the

00:33:03   MacBook One with Skylake CPU this past week, and it is not a big update. And a lot of people

00:33:11   are really expecting basically the impossible from this.

00:33:16   And I can't blame them, I mean, you know,

00:33:18   Apple has cultivated an expectation of like,

00:33:21   products get a lot better in their

00:33:24   second and third generations,

00:33:25   and everything is always getting better all the time,

00:33:27   so shouldn't this get better by leaps and bounds too?

00:33:32   And the reality is that the MacBook One

00:33:36   uses a special, extremely low power consumption

00:33:40   Intel platform. It uses a very low power CPU with a very limited low power chipset to power

00:33:46   everything else also. And one of the core principles of computers today, modern mobile

00:33:54   computers, especially laptops, is that you basically have, you're limited by power and

00:34:02   thermals. And so you have different classes of what kind of performance and what kind

00:34:06   of connectivity, what kind of ports, what kind of luxuries, what kind of speeds, how

00:34:10   and how many cores, these are all determined by,

00:34:14   fundamentally, how much power can you supply the CPU,

00:34:17   and then correspondingly, how much heat can you cool

00:34:20   from being emitted from the CPU.

00:34:22   Like a MacBook Air, those CPUs are something like

00:34:25   17 watt consumption and heat design.

00:34:29   A 13 inch MacBook, I forget what those are,

00:34:32   something in like the 25 range maybe,

00:34:34   and then a 15 inch with the quad cores,

00:34:36   that's gonna be somewhere in the 40 watt range.

00:34:40   The MacBook One CPU has a five watt range.

00:34:43   A five watt CPU cannot do a whole lot compared to even the 17 watt CPUs in the MacBook Air,

00:34:52   let alone like the nicer 20 or 30 watt CPUs in like a 13 inch MacBook Pro.

00:34:57   The MacBook One is designed, it's fanless, which is one of the biggest limitations of

00:35:02   this because even a little bit of air moving through a heat sink can cool way more effectively

00:35:10   than totally passive cooling systems.

00:35:12   So this thing has no fan, it has a very small battery

00:35:15   inside a very small enclosure.

00:35:17   So the limitations placed on this are such that

00:35:20   the MacBook One, as long as it continues

00:35:23   to be in that size enclosure and not have

00:35:26   an active cooling fan and not have

00:35:28   a substantially bigger battery,

00:35:30   it will never have similar performance

00:35:33   as like even a couple generation old 13 inch MacBook Pro

00:35:38   or even a couple generation old MacBook Air

00:35:42   if the MacBook Air is continued to be updated,

00:35:43   which is a giant if and the answer is probably no.

00:35:45   But people who expected the MacBook One

00:35:50   to be two or three times faster than it was before,

00:35:54   you're gonna be disappointed

00:35:55   because there just isn't enough thermal headroom

00:35:57   in that enclosure.

00:35:59   And desktop or PC CPUs don't make those kind of jumps

00:36:05   in power efficiency in one year.

00:36:07   This computer will never match the MacBook Pro

00:36:11   of like even two or three years ago.

00:36:13   It will, you know, it's very limited by what it can do.

00:36:17   And if you want something,

00:36:18   basically the new MacBook One is something like 20% faster

00:36:23   than the old MacBook One.

00:36:24   I haven't seen a whole bunch of benchmarks yet,

00:36:27   but it's in that ballpark,

00:36:28   in the ballpark of 20% faster and--

00:36:31   - And that's a big bump too,

00:36:32   because like normally when we get new Macs,

00:36:34   it's like oh and the CPU is 15% faster

00:36:36   and you take what you can get.

00:36:37   20, 25% faster at CPU is nothing to sneeze at.

00:36:40   Like, I don't think this is a bad update.

00:36:42   It is faster and gets more battery life.

00:36:44   That's what updates are supposed to do.

00:36:45   They just didn't add the USB port, whatever.

00:36:47   - Well, exactly, but like, a lot of people,

00:36:49   especially people who have owned the MacBook One,

00:36:52   the previous, you know, the first generation one,

00:36:54   a lot of them, you know, the MacBook One

00:36:55   is a very slow computer.

00:36:57   A lot of them were hoping that this would make it

00:36:59   a reasonably speeded computer, and it just doesn't,

00:37:03   because slow times 1.2 is still slow.

00:37:07   And you're right, 20% in one generation

00:37:11   is a massive jump for PC CPUs these days.

00:37:14   You're lucky to get 5% or 10% most of the time.

00:37:16   So this was a substantial jump.

00:37:19   Skylake was a long time coming,

00:37:21   and it's a major advancement by Intel.

00:37:25   And so they put this in here, and it's still a slow computer.

00:37:29   It still only has one port, and some of that

00:37:31   is because limitations are that low power chipset.

00:37:34   Adding more ports requires more from the chipset,

00:37:37   which this super low power chipset,

00:37:40   for some of the things people want,

00:37:41   doesn't even support it.

00:37:42   For some of the other things,

00:37:44   we don't know why the reasons are that they were omitted,

00:37:45   but they probably have to do with space and power.

00:37:48   So this computer will never be

00:37:51   what the MacBook Air is today.

00:37:53   The role the MacBook Air serves today

00:37:55   requires a little bit more space,

00:37:58   a little bit bigger battery, and a fan.

00:38:00   this is kind of the problem, Apple has replaced

00:38:03   the MacBook Air effectively from the way it appears.

00:38:06   They've replaced the MacBook Air with a computer

00:38:10   that can never replace the MacBook Air.

00:38:12   And it might be irrelevant.

00:38:14   You know, people, a lot of people like this better,

00:38:18   that's fine, the MacBook Pro is likely to get

00:38:22   a lot thinner and lighter when it gets its Skylake updated,

00:38:24   you know, any day now basically, but probably at WVDC.

00:38:28   So the MacBook Air is kind of just left for nothing.

00:38:33   There's now these wonderful 17 watt CPUs that Intel makes

00:38:38   that Apple is just not gonna be using, I guess,

00:38:41   in the future, which seems like a mistake,

00:38:43   but I don't know.

00:38:44   So the MacBook One, in order to get that size,

00:38:48   you're giving up quite a lot, and one of those things is

00:38:52   that computer will never be fast relative to the rest

00:38:55   of the computers, it won't even be remotely competitive.

00:38:58   in compared to the rest of the lineup,

00:38:59   and it will never have the connectivity

00:39:02   of the rest of the lineup.

00:39:03   And if that's what you want,

00:39:03   if you want some kind of modern performance

00:39:07   and decent connectivity,

00:39:08   you're gonna have to go with a bigger model.

00:39:09   And that's not too bad,

00:39:10   'cause the bigger models are awesome.

00:39:12   - Didn't they get a SSD speed bump too?

00:39:14   - Yes, yeah, faster storage.

00:39:16   - And I think faster storage will probably have more

00:39:18   of an impact on people's lives of that computer

00:39:20   than CPU speed, 'cause I don't think people are using it

00:39:22   to do like big CPU, or they shouldn't be using big CPU

00:39:25   at a test, but everything you do, like,

00:39:27   involves the disk launching things,

00:39:29   and even just web browsing with the disk cache

00:39:31   and everything, so I haven't used one of these in person, but.

00:39:34   - Yeah, but the disk was already fast.

00:39:36   It was already a PCI Express native SSD.

00:39:39   Like, it is, if you look at raw numbers,

00:39:42   it is faster now, and it's faster by a pretty good margin

00:39:46   in disk benchmarks, but the whole machine

00:39:49   is still held back dramatically by the very slow CPU,

00:39:54   and it's very low power ceiling.

00:39:56   You might think, like, I thought when I bought one for a day,

00:39:59   I thought, you know what, what am I doing on a laptop

00:40:02   that needs that much power?

00:40:03   It's like, most of the time I'm just like typing

00:40:05   and answering emails and stuff.

00:40:06   So most of the time it's fine, right?

00:40:08   Well, first of all, typing, hmm, not on that.

00:40:10   But, and also the trackpad, hmm,

00:40:12   that's the worst force-touch trackpad I've ever used.

00:40:16   But you'd be surprised, like, modern OS X

00:40:20   and things you take for granted that do use CPU power,

00:40:23   like viewing your photos.

00:40:25   Like if you wanted to sync your photo library

00:40:29   over to that computer so you could take it with you

00:40:31   and look at it on vacation or add to it on vacation

00:40:33   or do even basic operations on photos

00:40:36   that you take on vacation,

00:40:37   even if they're just photos from your phone,

00:40:39   not from a fancy camera,

00:40:41   that actually does use CPU power on the Mac

00:40:44   and it actually is noticeably annoyingly slow

00:40:48   on that computer for a lot of cases.

00:40:50   So again, it's just like this computer,

00:40:52   if what you want is a decently speedy computer

00:40:57   that you're not gonna ever notice is that slow,

00:41:00   this is not the computer for you,

00:41:01   'cause it will always be slow.

00:41:03   It can't be fast relative to the rest of the lineup

00:41:06   with that kind of thermal headroom limitation.

00:41:09   - This is the part of the program where I willfully refuse

00:41:12   to look up the Geekbench numbers for this quote unquote

00:41:15   slow MacBook and compare them to the 2008 Mac Pro

00:41:18   that I'm sitting in front of that's the size of a suitcase.

00:41:21   Don't wanna know.

00:41:22   - Moving on.

00:41:23   - I think, just for reference, I'm pretty sure

00:41:25   it'll probably kill you on single threaded,

00:41:27   but I bet you, I think you have at least

00:41:29   double the multi-threaded.

00:41:31   - Let's not discuss.

00:41:32   - What do you have, the 2.66, is that it?

00:41:35   Eight core 2.6?

00:41:37   - I don't even remember, 2.8, right?

00:41:38   Let me see.

00:41:39   - Something like that.

00:41:40   - Yeah, no, 2.8.

00:41:41   - All right, eight core 2.8.

00:41:42   Mac Pro 2008.

00:41:44   - Oh no, don't look it up, what are you doing?

00:41:46   - What did you think he was doing?

00:41:47   John, you should have answered that question, come on.

00:41:50   - It feels fast, I have all the storage.

00:41:52   - Chat room, look at it.

00:41:53   - I've got a terabyte SSD, take that MacBook.

00:41:55   - Listen to you bargaining with yourself.

00:41:57   I have fast storage, it's okay.

00:41:59   - There's no terabyte SSD option in that thing,

00:42:01   even though mine's hooked up to SATA and not PCI Express,

00:42:04   but I don't really think about that either.

00:42:06   - At least it's one USB port is USB 3.

00:42:09   You don't have that either.

00:42:10   - Oh yeah, no I don't have USB 3, but I don't care about that

00:42:12   I have way more USB ports.

00:42:13   (laughing)

00:42:14   My goodness.

00:42:15   Anyway, while we send the chat room off

00:42:18   to figure out how miserable Jon should be.

00:42:21   - Oh my God, you're single threaded

00:42:23   is only 1500 on that Geekbench?

00:42:25   - Shh, shh, shh, don't listen to that.

00:42:27   - That's terrible. - Don't listen.

00:42:29   Cover your many ear holes.

00:42:31   - Our iMacs are 4000.

00:42:33   - Since the 2008 computer, give me a break,

00:42:34   it was fast when I got it.

00:42:36   - The multi-threaded is respectable,

00:42:37   you got 10,000 on the multi-threaded, that is respectable.

00:42:39   But 1500 on single, like iPhones beat that now.

00:42:43   (laughing)

00:42:44   - Yeah, I think my new iPad is faster than this Mac Pro.

00:42:46   (laughing)

00:42:48   Anyway, bumper sounds.

00:42:49   I put this in there because--

00:42:50   - Oh, my apologies. - Last show, yes.

00:42:52   Last show, Marco talked about the bumper sounds

00:42:55   and we discussed the start chimes he used

00:42:57   and he said he wanted to use the Windows XP USB thing

00:42:59   but didn't because I wouldn't like it.

00:43:00   And what did he do in the next show?

00:43:02   He used the USB sound from Windows XP.

00:43:05   And guess what?

00:43:06   I don't like it.

00:43:07   - They're wonderful.

00:43:07   - And guess what?

00:43:08   Everyone else loves it.

00:43:10   - Everyone else does.

00:43:10   - Not everyone else.

00:43:11   The Windows users like it.

00:43:12   They're like, oh, Windows, I remember that.

00:43:13   That's great.

00:43:14   Of course they're gonna like it.

00:43:15   - No, it has nothing to do with that.

00:43:16   The problem is, it's just what Marco said,

00:43:19   I guess it was last episode,

00:43:21   it was just what Marco said,

00:43:22   it's a perfect mirror image.

00:43:24   It's doo doo and doo doo.

00:43:26   It's perfect.

00:43:27   - But they're bad sounds and they're from Windows

00:43:28   and they're from Windows XP, for crying out loud.

00:43:30   - Oh, come on.

00:43:31   - Here's what the Windows XP sounds did.

00:43:33   They made me like the startup chime sounds better,

00:43:35   like by comparison, even though I thought

00:43:37   the startup chimes that he chose

00:43:38   were not the ones that I would have picked,

00:43:40   at least they were Apple sounds

00:43:42   and they weren't from Windows and they weren't,

00:43:44   no, I do not like them.

00:43:45   I do not like the Windows XP.

00:43:47   - This is not the Apple Tech Podcast,

00:43:50   it's the Accidental Tech Podcast.

00:43:51   And we have accidentally--

00:43:53   - Yes, but we talk about Apple all the time,

00:43:54   and none of us even use Windows anymore, and no.

00:43:58   - But we have accidentally backed into

00:44:00   the perfect ad bumper sounds.

00:44:02   Marco, I stand with you, I'm in full support.

00:44:04   - They're not the perfect ad bumper sounds,

00:44:05   they're terrible, and Microsoft's gonna come

00:44:07   and sue you anyway.

00:44:08   (laughing)

00:44:09   - I think Windows XP might be so old

00:44:11   that it might be public domain.

00:44:12   What is it, death of the author plus 75 years?

00:44:14   It gets something like that, right?

00:44:16   - It's close.

00:44:16   - How old is Windows XP?

00:44:17   Doesn't Brian Eno did those sounds?

00:44:19   See, Brian Eno did some Windows sounds,

00:44:20   maybe just for Windows 95.

00:44:22   He's still alive.

00:44:23   - Oh, goodness.

00:44:24   Well, I like them.

00:44:25   Now, I don't wanna get sued into oblivion, but I do like them.

00:44:27   - We're not gonna get sued.

00:44:29   - Well, anyway, I'm filing a formal protest

00:44:31   against the Windows XP USB sounds as ad bumpers.

00:44:33   - So, listeners, feel free to tweet @Saracusa

00:44:36   about how much you love the XP sounds, because we all do.

00:44:40   - Or better yet, the only way it's gonna go away

00:44:42   is if we have better alternatives.

00:44:43   So people should come up with high quality recordings

00:44:45   that are better alternatives that are either from Apple

00:44:47   or from whole cloth that are not related to Windows.

00:44:50   - Or from fish maybe.

00:44:51   - I would accept fish more than Windows.

00:44:53   (laughing)

00:44:55   - Well and also like much of the complaining

00:44:58   about the other sounds I picked, the old Mac sounds,

00:45:00   is that they were like kind of like too jarring.

00:45:02   - Yeah, I agree.

00:45:03   - Windows, Windows sound design is always made

00:45:06   to be so like universally pleasing,

00:45:08   so everybody feels nothing.

00:45:09   Like the Windows sounds are like the sound equivalent

00:45:11   of the paintings in hotel rooms.

00:45:13   Like, you just-- - Yes, moment of history.

00:45:15   - You notice that there's, like, it is nice

00:45:17   when there's sound there, but you don't notice the sound,

00:45:20   and it just, it offends nobody, it's completely bland,

00:45:23   and it's fine.

00:45:25   - I think the login sound is offensive.

00:45:26   You know the login sound?

00:45:28   - Oh, yeah.

00:45:30   (imitates login sound)

00:45:30   - I don't know, the one where you log in,

00:45:32   and the big, ugly Windows XP green grass desktop greets you.

00:45:37   - Well, I thought login was like, "Boo-doo,"

00:45:39   And then the logout was, doo doo doo doo, right?

00:45:42   - Yeah, that's how I remember.

00:45:43   - Maybe I'm remembering it the wrong way.

00:45:44   But anyway, I think some of the windows sounds

00:45:46   are offensive and I think the USB sound,

00:45:48   like it shouldn't be making any sound

00:45:49   when you plug in a USB device.

00:45:50   And I don't like those sounds, thumbs down.

00:45:53   - Well, I'm not gonna get into it.

00:45:55   But the USB stack on OS X is not as good as the window.

00:46:00   Like you can't just unplug a USB stick,

00:46:02   even though I've been using that.

00:46:03   - It's better than with a USB stack,

00:46:04   I guess it's with like buffered IO.

00:46:05   Like you can do flush IO

00:46:08   every single I/O operation and just look wait till the lights not blinking and

00:46:12   yank it out that's barbaric come on why not just go back to drive letters I tell

00:46:18   you what the one thing that it that drives windows you converts crazy anytime

00:46:25   I talk to one and it drives me kind of crazy too is having to unmount drives it

00:46:29   drives people what do you mean after I have to eject it what are you talking

00:46:33   about but that's how a modern I/O system works you don't flush everything to disk

00:46:36   on every operation. That would be crazy pants. You have a buffer and you have to flush that

00:46:40   buffer and you have to know when it's safe to eject something. How do you know when it's

00:46:45   safe? I mean, going back to the old Unix days, type sync twice because it's voodoo and the

00:46:51   second time really counts. And then you can unmount your thing because then you'll know

00:46:55   all the bits have made their way to the disk.

00:46:58   Oh, goodness.

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00:48:16   - WWDC is gonna be a little bit different this year.

00:48:20   I'm probably not gonna know about it in normal Marco.

00:48:23   I'm sorry, I'll compose myself.

00:48:24   There's going to be a different location for Monday.

00:48:28   We are going to be at the Bill Graham Auditorium,

00:48:30   which we briefly made mention of earlier.

00:48:32   This is a change from at least before 2011.

00:48:35   I mean, like I said, I've been going since 2011, Marco, since '09, is that right?

00:48:39   Yeah.

00:48:40   No, I mean, they've never done something like this in San Francisco as far as I know.

00:48:43   They used to be back, if you go back far enough, and if you include Macworlds, then they have

00:48:47   like, you know, things in Boston and everything, but that was all before our time.

00:48:51   Right.

00:48:52   So, Monday, the way Mondays typically work in the past was you would line up absurdly

00:48:59   early outside of Moscone, which is where the conference is.

00:49:02   You would be let in uncomfortably close to the time of the keynote, usually anyway.

00:49:09   You would walk up to three, or you would migrate your way up to the third floor, which is where

00:49:12   the keynote was.

00:49:13   Then there would be a mad stampede into the keynote room.

00:49:16   There'd be the keynote.

00:49:17   Everyone would get punted downstairs to eat, and then you would come back up and you would

00:49:22   watch the developer State of the Union, which was kind of like a keynote, but for nerdier

00:49:26   types.

00:49:28   And then Tuesday through Friday was just regular conference time.

00:49:31   This year, apparently, on Monday, it's all going to be in the Bill Graham Auditorium.

00:49:36   And actually, even the check-in on Sunday, the way it always used to work was you could

00:49:40   check in in Moscone on Sunday.

00:49:42   Now that check-in is apparently at the Bill Graham Auditorium on Sunday.

00:49:45   And then All Day Monday is at the auditorium.

00:49:49   That's where the keynote will be.

00:49:50   That's where the State of the Union will be.

00:49:52   Is there anything else that evening?

00:49:54   I feel like there's one other thing.

00:49:55   ADAs, right? Apple Design Awards. That's right. That's going to be on Monday

00:50:00   night, all at the Bill Graham Auditorium. And then the thing that used to be called

00:50:04   the Beer Bash, now I guess it's called the WWDC Bash, that used to be at Yerba Buena

00:50:09   Gardens, which is this park just a couple of blocks from Moscone. Now that's also going

00:50:14   to be at the Bill Graham Auditorium, so it's not going to be outdoors anymore, and it's

00:50:18   going to be off-site again as well. Well, further off-site anyway. And this is all a

00:50:22   bit of a change. And there was a funny tweet by a friend of the show, Craig Hockenberry.

00:50:27   I don't know if he is being snarky or not because I don't know enough about San Francisco,

00:50:30   but it reads as follows, "Seriously, do not take a direct route from your WWDC hotel to

00:50:35   Bill Graham. Get onto Market Street and pay attention from Powell to the Civic Center."

00:50:40   Apparently because that area, which is I guess the tenderloin, I'm sorry San Franciscans,

00:50:45   is a little bit rough. So there's transportation for the beer bash or the WWDC bash. I don't

00:50:52   believe there's any for the keynote on Monday.

00:50:55   Yeah, the bigger venue makes sense in terms of wanting, we talked about before, wanting

00:50:59   more press like they did with the watch event, where they just invite everybody, "Sure, come

00:51:03   out, we will accept your coverage and we need more room for you." So it's WWC attendees

00:51:08   and tons and tons of press, come look at whatever it is we're going to announce. State of the

00:51:12   Union? Eh, I feel like, I mean the only reason they're holding it there is because that's

00:51:16   where the keynote is and you're not going to make everybody move from one location to

00:51:18   the other, but I imagine a lot of the crowd will disappear once they bring the engineering

00:51:21   people up and start talking about techy stuff. The Bash? I don't know why that's not outdoors.

00:51:28   It's kind of nice when it was outdoors. I mean, they had weird food and the band was

00:51:33   kind of a mess because half the crowd would be paying attention to the band and the other

00:51:36   half would be trying to hear each other over the sound of the band.

00:51:38   I think that's generous. For me, The Bash has always been uncomfortable because you

00:51:45   have a band on one side and usually, you know, it's a band that like, the people there usually

00:51:50   have heard of the band. At least many of them have heard of the band.

00:51:53   Or at least their popular song. Like, "Oh yeah, I know that one song."

00:51:58   But the people who are there are not there for the band. It's all the WBC attendees,

00:52:05   they're mostly to talk to each other. And so you have this band off on one side playing

00:52:09   on the stage, playing mostly to people's backs, and there's this huge open area in front of

00:52:17   stage where nobody wants to stand because everyone's trying to get away from the band

00:52:21   so they can hear each other talk. So the band is playing to effectively a bunch of people

00:52:26   who would rather they turn the volume down and stop. It's a terrible gig for the band.

00:52:33   Like it is so awkward and I feel so bad. Like the band will finish a song and there will

00:52:39   be literally like four people near them clapping and everyone else just like dead silent.

00:52:43   It's not that bad sometimes. Oh, yes a little a little group of fans who are close by who are actually into it

00:52:49   I mean like the band is a separate thing

00:52:51   But like I feel like the people who are not there for the band their needs are not served much better than the band

00:52:55   I'm gonna think about it being in Bill Graham Auditorium if there's going to be a band. There's no way to run from that band

00:53:01   There's nowhere to hide like you just get to me

00:53:03   That's why like I'm curious about this because it sounds like that would make all the problems worse

00:53:07   Yeah

00:53:07   well

00:53:07   No

00:53:08   it would made eliminate the problem in terms of if the only reason you would possibly go to it is if you want to see

00:53:12   the band because you're not gonna be able to have any discussion with anybody in the

00:53:15   giant auditorium with a huge sound system. It's like when U2 played at the watch event,

00:53:19   it's not like people were having conversations in the back of the room. You couldn't hear

00:53:21   yourself think.

00:53:22   Yeah, I don't know. We'll see how it goes.

00:53:24   How great would it be if the band was U2 and they only played Songs of Innocence?

00:53:30   That's not a bad album, you know, first of all.

00:53:32   I had a feeling.

00:53:34   The single they chose to play off of the watch event, eh, you know, not the best song. Anyway,

00:53:39   not going to be you two again. But if it was, I would go.

00:53:44   I didn't even go to the Bash last year.

00:53:45   Yeah, I don't think I've seen you there in several years now.

00:53:48   Yeah, I usually have conflicts with other things. But the times I've gone to the Bash,

00:53:52   I have enjoyed it. We've hid way in the back, and you go from circle of people to circle

00:53:56   of people, and you yell really loud until your voices don't give out. But it's the one

00:54:00   time I feel like I get to see everybody, because everybody, all the people I know are hiding

00:54:05   in the back in little clusters, and I can find them. Whereas during the conference,

00:54:08   you happen to pick the same session as somebody, you see where they're sitting, you can talk

00:54:10   to them briefly before or after, but the bashes, you know, it's a gathering of people and it's

00:54:14   like the end of the conference and I have fond memories of the few years that I went

00:54:19   there. It's just not ideal for the purpose that I would like to use it for.

00:54:25   But I think that's like what most, like, I think most people are there to socialize.

00:54:29   They're not there to see a band. And Yerba Wayne was already like, it was crowded in

00:54:34   Like even like trying to walk through and just like get from one side of the other or to get to the food things

00:54:40   Or to you know to leave or to enter you were going it was such a crowd

00:54:45   It was like walking through Times Square

00:54:46   Like it's you're like trying to like wedge between people to like weave through like it was always very densely packed

00:54:52   At least in recent years just look for Craig Hockenberry's head and navigate based on that

00:54:56   It's so true for those who don't know Craig Hockenberry is approximately 13 feet tall about that

00:55:03   So the bash is gonna be at Bill Graham. I don't know I

00:55:06   That's a weird setup. Like you guys said and I do feel for the bands that play the bash because they usually

00:55:11   Whether or not you like the music generally speaking the bands are good and they're typically up-and-coming bands

00:55:17   but just like Marco said it's the worst gig in the world because at least half if not

00:55:20   3/4 of the of the audience has their back to you because they are not paying attention to you at all

00:55:26   They just want to talk and God I feel for them. It was a lottery again this year

00:55:30   Obviously, I have very mixed feelings about well. No, I don't have mixed feelings about it

00:55:33   I'm very sad at the way the lottery turned out selfishly speaking, but wait, I just got in seriously. Yeah

00:55:39   I just got the email. Oh, so you told you

00:55:41   25th you have until nothing for me. Sorry Casey. That's okay

00:55:46   So yeah, so the lottery

00:55:49   Generally speaking. I think I'm pretty heavily in favor of it. It's the least

00:55:55   Crappy alternative I think that we have

00:55:59   And we talked about this around a year ago

00:56:02   I don't think I'm gonna spend the time to dig up what episode or episodes it were it was in the show notes

00:56:07   It might have even been two years ago when this was a new thing. But anyways, I do think even as someone

00:56:12   Who has as we record now still does not have a ticket

00:56:17   I do think it's the most fair way of doing things and I am in support of it because even though I appreciated

00:56:24   Being Johnny on the spot when back when there was at least a moment to to to order

00:56:30   I just laugh because the when I whenever I hear anybody say Johnny on the spot

00:56:35   I can only think of the brand of portable toilet of that name. That was all over my baseball fields at my youth

00:56:42   Okay

00:56:44   I don't even know what to make of that. So when you say I was John in the spot like no, that's not

00:56:48   That's not how I perceive that phrase

00:56:53   Well, in any case, I was very quick to order a ticket back when you had some amount of

00:57:00   control over such things.

00:57:03   And I do think that in the grand scheme of things, the lottery is the best way to do

00:57:07   it.

00:57:08   One other idea that I heard about Billy Graham being a larger venue is that they are anticipating

00:57:14   a fall-off in terms of attendance and potentially could invite more people.

00:57:19   I have no idea if this is true, but this is a theory that I heard.

00:57:22   So say they can invite 5,000 people,

00:57:23   because that's what Moscone holds.

00:57:25   5,000 people go to the keynote and say to the union,

00:57:27   and then the next day comes,

00:57:29   and 4,000 people show up to go to sessions

00:57:31   for the rest of the week, right?

00:57:33   So if you have a larger venue for Billy Graham,

00:57:36   you could have, for the keynote,

00:57:38   you could have, invite more people and expect,

00:57:40   kind of like how you expect like no-shows or whatever,

00:57:43   or restaurant reservations, like essentially overbook it

00:57:46   to account for the fact that a lot of people

00:57:49   are just gonna go to the first day's festivities

00:57:51   and will not appear every single day

00:57:52   for the rest of the conference.

00:57:54   That is a theory I heard.

00:57:55   I don't put much stock in it,

00:57:56   but it is another potential benefit.

00:57:59   Getting back to the lottery,

00:58:00   like how do you deal with the fact

00:58:01   that more people wanna come than can go?

00:58:03   You can move into a different city, to a bigger venue,

00:58:05   you can use more of Moscone.

00:58:07   Maybe this is like a weird hybrid solution, we'll see.

00:58:10   - Also, I think, so Billy Graham versus Bill Graham,

00:58:14   I assume this is different, right?

00:58:17   'Cause you keep saying Billy Graham, that's very different.

00:58:20   I think this is somebody else, right?

00:58:22   - Yeah, I'm misspeaking in my typical way.

00:58:25   Please autocorrect what I'm saying to the place

00:58:28   where the WWDC keynote is being held.

00:58:30   If I had said the wrong place,

00:58:31   just pretend I didn't say that.

00:58:32   Pretend I said the right thing.

00:58:34   - It appears that Bill Graham was a concert promoter,

00:58:37   and that's probably who the auditorium was named after,

00:58:40   right, and then Billy Graham is--

00:58:43   - Was not. - Not concert promoter.

00:58:45   - His friends could have called him Billy, you don't know.

00:58:48   - Oh, goodness.

00:58:49   - Okay.

00:58:50   - I don't even know where to go from here.

00:58:52   In any case, the other thing that was interesting was,

00:58:57   I don't recall how this was last year

00:58:59   because I did get a ticket last year,

00:59:01   but I'll find out this year.

00:59:03   - Check your email, I don't know.

00:59:04   - Just keep hitting refresh.

00:59:06   - Yeah, that's totally gonna work.

00:59:07   - If it makes you feel any better,

00:59:08   I also just got the email from Tesla

00:59:10   advertising all the new features of the Model S

00:59:12   that my car doesn't have.

00:59:13   - Oh, that makes me feel marginally better,

00:59:14   but they're going to be broadcasting,

00:59:17   Actually, let me read the quote from the website.

00:59:19   "We will be live streaming sessions daily

00:59:23   and posting videos of all our sessions

00:59:24   throughout the week of the conference."

00:59:26   Did they live stream anything

00:59:27   other than like Monday last year?

00:59:29   I had thought they were very, very quick on the turnaround,

00:59:32   but I don't recall them live streaming regular sessions.

00:59:36   Is that true?

00:59:37   - Live streaming, that means

00:59:38   they've opened the door to Streakers.

00:59:41   (laughing)

00:59:43   Thousands of developers around the world are watching,

00:59:46   learning about core foundation and then all of a sudden from the corner runs

00:59:50   right across the stage. Was that guy English? Of all the people who I've

01:00:01   seen you know comment on the fact they're live streaming this year this

01:00:06   concern is unique to you John. Well no it's kind of like the same way like they

01:00:11   got rid of the Q&A meant it used to be that the end of the session they would have Q&A

01:00:14   and they got rid of that for it was just not constructive use of everyone's time.

01:00:17   That was terrible.

01:00:18   Because you know what Q&A's are like. But on the other hand, sometimes you got some amusing

01:00:22   or interesting questions. There was the time they bailed on the Q&A about the App Store because

01:00:27   people were really angry and they didn't want to deal with that. So they just ended it.

01:00:30   So Q&A is another example where you don't know what you're going to get. You have a prepared

01:00:35   presentation and you give it and then anything can happen. And when you're there at WWDC,

01:00:40   sometimes people yell something out from the audience that's funny that doesn't make it into

01:00:44   into the video because they edited it out

01:00:46   or they edit out the little aside.

01:00:47   Usually people being excited about a new API

01:00:49   or a new parameter or something very nerdy like that.

01:00:52   This is one of the unique benefits of being there in person.

01:00:54   Anyway, if they live stream it

01:00:56   and someone was to yell something out in the audience,

01:00:59   then that would make it to the live stream,

01:01:01   but probably not to the recorded one that they edit down.

01:01:03   - Oh, def, I mean, like the recorded ones,

01:01:05   they edit out like applause and laughter

01:01:07   and like any little tiny slip up, they edit that out too.

01:01:11   The recorded ones, they are extremely unfun.

01:01:15   - Yeah, I agree.

01:01:16   Anything else on WWDC?

01:01:20   Enjoy, you two.

01:01:21   - You're gonna get in too.

01:01:22   - Plenty of time, you got three days, Casey.

01:01:24   Three whole days for Apple PR to listen to this podcast.

01:01:28   (laughing)

01:01:29   - I'm sure.

01:01:29   All Apple PR wants to do is listen

01:01:31   to the Accidental Tech podcast.

01:01:33   That's how they spend their Saturday night.

01:01:34   - That's all they do.

01:01:35   What else do they have to do with their time?

01:01:36   - Well, actually, it's not even gonna be released.

01:01:38   Yeah, Marco, you gotta release this tomorrow.

01:01:39   Give me a chance here.

01:01:40   - Okay.

01:01:41   (laughing)

01:01:42   - I'm just kidding.

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01:04:05   [DING]

01:04:06   Uh, Jon, while you were on vacation in California, forgetting what reality was, um, you bought

01:04:11   some new hardware.

01:04:12   I got to buy it in the, uh, official Apple store.

01:04:15   I don't know what you call it.

01:04:16   It's the, the one in one infinite loop.

01:04:18   They have a little Apple store there.

01:04:19   The company store.

01:04:20   I'm, I'm told that it used to look very different, but now it just looks like a regular Apple

01:04:24   store.

01:04:25   I think it used to have, like, racks of clothes in it and stuff, and you can buy, like, like,

01:04:28   mugs and silly things like that.

01:04:29   I don't know.

01:04:30   I never went to it.

01:04:31   Is that all gone?

01:04:32   I, I've only seen the old one.

01:04:33   haven't seen the new one. Yeah, the new one just looks like an Apple

01:04:35   store. It's a bunch of tables, it's got a big screen on two of the walls. It's really

01:04:38   neat. Have you seen with these screens? I don't know how they work. It's like a cloth

01:04:41   type thing. I assume it's rear projection or something. Anyway.

01:04:44   Can you still buy t-shirts and stuff? They do have t-shirts. They're displayed very strangely.

01:04:49   They're like stretched over these little rectangles so you can't tell that they're shirts. You

01:04:53   just have to assume that the fabric stretched into that rectangle shape has sleeves and

01:04:56   a place for your head to come out and stuff. But yeah, you can buy t-shirts. In fact, I

01:05:02   I saw someone there buying a lot of t-shirts and I was just adding up how much they must

01:05:04   cost because each one of those t-shirts is surely like 30 bucks or something.

01:05:08   Anyway.

01:05:09   Oh yeah, they're not well priced.

01:05:10   Yeah, I meant to buy it, buy something before I left, but as the date approached, you worried

01:05:15   that the shipping's gonna come and you're gonna be on a plane.

01:05:17   I'm like, "You know what?

01:05:18   I'm going there.

01:05:20   I can just go to Apple and get it."

01:05:22   So I did.

01:05:23   I got myself a normal-sized iPad Pro and a pencil and the smart cover and I got the back

01:05:31   silicone cover thing as well. And I also got a replacement iPad for my son. He got the

01:05:38   Air. This is his combined birthday present with a bunch of other things. Replacing his

01:05:42   iPad 2 that he's destroyed, utterly destroyed. So hopefully now that he's older and a little

01:05:48   bit wiser he will not utterly destroy this iPad but it'll be a big upgrade from his non-retina

01:05:53   iPad 2 that he's been using. But the Pro, I mean as you would imagine upgrading from

01:05:58   an iPad 3. It's fantastic. Everything is fast and beautiful and the screen is amazing. I

01:06:04   left True Tone on. I tried the little demo of it on and off. I was worried that it would

01:06:09   bother me that I would notice, but I don't. And I think it's great and I think the screen

01:06:13   is amazing and I'm really happy about it. The silicone back thing, I don't know what

01:06:17   you call it, the case, that's the only question mark. I have it on now. It's only the back,

01:06:21   so it's not the front. The smart cover I have on the front. The back and the front fit together

01:06:25   really nicely, which looks neat when it's all closed up, but it makes it harder to open,

01:06:30   you have to sort of find where the edge is.

01:06:33   With the Smart Cover you can do that Smart Cover thing that I think everyone unconsciously

01:06:36   does where you can slide out the Smart Cover slightly to get it poking off the edge of

01:06:40   the iPad and then pull it up with your thumb, you know what I'm talking about?

01:06:44   With the case it kind of seats together and it's a little bit harder to get the edge,

01:06:47   and when you're holding it of course there's a little lip around the whole thing, of two

01:06:52   minds on the lip.

01:06:53   is bad in that it's, you know, it's a little ridge where once it was smooth, but it is

01:06:58   good coming from the iPad 3 in that I wish the borders around the iPad were a little

01:07:02   bit bigger for thumb gripping, and that little ridge gives an extra grippy area to make up

01:07:06   for the fact that the sides, when held in portrait orientation, are not as wide.

01:07:11   And also it doesn't block the speakers, there are little holes in the case for the four

01:07:15   speakers to come out, but I wonder if it's affecting the audio quality, although the

01:07:19   audio quality is, again, so much better than this stupid one little tinny speaker on my

01:07:23   My iPad 3, it's amazing.

01:07:25   I heartily recommend not upgrading your iOS device

01:07:29   for however many years I kept that iPad 3

01:07:31   because wow, what an upgrade.

01:07:32   - Well you've also, like, if you look at the iPad lineup

01:07:35   in retrospect, they're all pretty good.

01:07:38   Like there really weren't any bad iPads.

01:07:41   But if you had to pick one as the worst iPad ever released,

01:07:44   it's the iPad 3.

01:07:46   - I would say the iPad 4, I think the iPad 4 is worse.

01:07:48   'Cause here's why. - No, what?

01:07:50   - iPad 4 was the iPad 3, but with a faster processor

01:07:53   and the lightning port, right?

01:07:54   - Yeah, but-- - But you had to wait

01:07:56   later to get that.

01:07:57   You got the iPad 3, it was the first Retina one,

01:07:59   and you feel like, I waited, that's what I did.

01:08:00   I waited a really long time, I wasn't gonna buy them

01:08:02   when they're Retina, and I bought it when it was Retina.

01:08:04   When the 4 came out, I didn't feel bad,

01:08:05   because one came out that was slightly faster

01:08:07   and had a lightning port, I felt good

01:08:09   that I had the Retina one while, for the three months

01:08:11   that people were waiting for the 4.

01:08:12   And the battery life has been great, and like,

01:08:15   I mean, the iPad 3 is a great iPad, I feel like.

01:08:17   Yes, it was big and it was hot, but--

01:08:19   - Yeah, but you know, like I said,

01:08:20   - None of the iPads have been really bad,

01:08:22   but just like, you know, if you had to pick one

01:08:24   as the worst, I think everybody would agree

01:08:26   the iPad 3 was the worst of these pretty good products.

01:08:30   - I would pick the Mini with the two internals,

01:08:32   I think, was worse, because you have to account

01:08:34   for the time that it was released.

01:08:35   The Mini with the two internals was released after the two,

01:08:38   but it was as slow as the two, and it was non-retina,

01:08:40   and I think that was the dog of the iPad line.

01:08:43   Anyway, I've enjoyed my iPad 3, it's served me well.

01:08:46   - It's a reasonable counter-argument.

01:08:48   It served me well, but I think this iPad is going to go down as one of the really good

01:08:52   ones because it is very impressive and it's a big step up from the other ones.

01:08:57   I haven't really used the Pencil yet, so I don't know what I'm going to use the Pencil

01:09:01   for.

01:09:02   I'm debating trying to use it for navigation now that all of the people fought for my right

01:09:06   to use it for navigation.

01:09:07   All right, well, maybe I'll try it for that.

01:09:10   I just bought it because – I mean, I've used it in the store and everything.

01:09:12   I know what it's like.

01:09:13   But I just bought it because it supports it and I'll surely find something to do with

01:09:17   it and if not I'll have this neat little accessory.

01:09:21   Yeah I'm enjoying it.

01:09:22   Oh and what I didn't enjoy was iTunes.

01:09:25   Nobody enjoys iTunes.

01:09:26   I brought my iPad 3 with me on the trip expecting to do a full encrypted iTunes backup and then

01:09:33   plug in the new iPad and restore my encrypted iTunes backup onto it and so basically just

01:09:38   what I had on my iPad 3 now is on my new iPad Pro.

01:09:42   That seems like it should work.

01:09:43   It has worked for me in the past.

01:09:45   I did the backup from the iPad 3 to the computer that I brought with me, and that worked fine.

01:09:50   And then I tried to restore onto the iPad Pro, and that did not work fine.

01:09:53   It would take a really long time, halfway through, an error would occur, then the iPad

01:09:58   Pro would reboot, and I tried it many different times in many different permutations, across

01:10:04   reboots, restarting both devices, trying different techniques to, you know, redoing the backups,

01:10:09   I mean, it just never worked.

01:10:12   I spent many, many hours trying to get iTunes to restore onto this.

01:10:14   I had to eventually resort to an iCloud backup, and everyone knows what that's like.

01:10:18   You lose half your stuff that you had there.

01:10:20   I had to re-sign into all my Slack things.

01:10:23   You don't get any of your passwords saved, so you have to re-enter all that information,

01:10:26   and it takes a year and a day to put all your apps back on.

01:10:28   So good old iTunes.

01:10:31   Screwed me one last time.

01:10:32   And we'll continue to, because the next time I get an iOS device, if I have a choice between

01:10:37   doing an encrypted backup and getting all those things and doing it the iCloud way with

01:10:40   the current limitations, I'll still try the iTunes way.

01:10:42   But that was not fun.

01:10:44   Well, I'm glad you got the new hardware and I'm glad you like it. I mean you've been waiting a long long long time

01:10:49   Did you get LTE I did on

01:10:51   Verizon or did you just get the Apple sim one or you don't have a choice when you buy it you just say with cellular

01:10:56   And that's what you get you get with cellular and so mine has cellular and during the setup

01:11:02   It was trying to tell me hey hook it up to it, but I'm not you know well

01:11:05   I'll add it to my Verizon account when I go

01:11:09   WWC which people were asking why would you bother doing that doesn't everyplace have Wi-Fi and you have an iPhone

01:11:14   Everyplace does have Wi-Fi, but Wi-Fi is not made to support

01:11:18   3,000 nerds with a million devices and so the Wi-Fi is usually not particularly healthy

01:11:24   Tethering in my experience has not worked particularly reliably

01:11:28   The most reliable way to get any kind of internet access in the middle of Moscone

01:11:33   Anyway with a bunch of other nerds in my experience has been

01:11:37   Verizon. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I bought, I've had I think four iPads and this last, the prior one to this one and the one I got for Christmas. Both of them have been with cellular and I couldn't agree with you more that that's the way to do it in general. I mean, it is like $130 more money, so it is fairly expensive, but I really prefer to have an onboard cellular connection if I so desire, even in general, just even outside WWDC.

01:12:07   And then when you're in WWDC, holy crap,

01:12:09   it's so much better being on any cellular network

01:12:13   than it is being on the WWDC wifi,

01:12:16   particularly keynote day.

01:12:18   But I'm not gonna have to worry about that this year.

01:12:20   (laughing)

01:12:21   - You don't know that, you don't know.

01:12:23   - Well also, in so many ways, it just makes sense

01:12:26   to kinda bring your own connection places.

01:12:30   Not only is it generally more consistent and more reliable,

01:12:33   it's also more secure.

01:12:35   You don't have to join somebody's crazy wifi,

01:12:37   I mean, you know, if you're using some kind of VPN software,

01:12:39   that's a little bit different, but like most people,

01:12:42   and you know, we like to think that everything is done

01:12:44   over HTTPS, but it's not still, you know,

01:12:47   there's still a lot of things that aren't.

01:12:48   So I think for most people, using a tethered connection

01:12:52   is way more secure than using some hotel Wi-Fi or something.

01:12:57   - Yep.

01:12:59   Alrighty, well, any other thoughts on your new hardware?

01:13:02   - My color choices for the case were kind of difficult.

01:13:04   I have been going with kind of gray or black in the past.

01:13:07   I almost did it again, but I decided to go with midnight blue this time.

01:13:11   I wish there were other colors that were more exciting.

01:13:12   I really do like the red, but my wife has claimed the red, and so to avoid in-house

01:13:17   confusion, in-house iOS device confusion, I've been kicked out of red, which is exactly

01:13:22   what I would buy.

01:13:23   I wish there was like a better blue that looked more blue, but I went with the midnight blue,

01:13:28   so at least it's not black.

01:13:29   Of course, I got the space gray device, but you can't see any of the space gray because

01:13:33   it's all in a case now.

01:13:34   Yeah, why did you get the silicon case? It seems so peculiar to me. I've never had a back case on any of my iPads.

01:13:38   I know, neither have I. This isn't the first one, but it's so much thinner

01:13:42   than the iPad 3, as you can imagine.

01:13:45   And I like the idea of a little bit of extra protection and a little bit of extra grip. And so far,

01:13:49   I'm like, my problems are not around back.

01:13:51   My problems are like the ridge and opening it. And I'll see, if it annoys me,

01:13:55   I'll take it off and, you know, lesson learned. But so far, I'm keeping it in there.

01:13:58   And I kind of like it. Space grain front, party in the back.

01:14:03   No, it's not space gray in the front. You messed that up. It's black in the front.

01:14:06   Well, so I'm curious so, you know

01:14:12   Like if you if you if you're a beer person you have undoubtedly heard from somebody who has ever drank beer before

01:14:19   That oh, well, you have to go have Guinness at the Guinness Brewery in Ireland. It's so much better there and

01:14:25   Honestly having done that I think it's about the same

01:14:29   Then please don't email me all of Ireland

01:14:33   But I wonder like, should the iPad that you buy

01:14:38   at One Infinite Loop at the company store,

01:14:41   should that be like a little bit better

01:14:43   than all of their iPads?

01:14:44   Should it be like, should it like, you know, smell fresher?

01:14:47   Or should it be like 5% faster or something like that?

01:14:50   Don't you feel like you should have gotten something special?

01:14:52   - Oh yeah, no, the CPU, the CPU is five megahertz faster.

01:14:55   Yeah. - Yeah.

01:14:57   - Didn't tell you that?

01:14:57   No, mine has four gigs of RAM.

01:14:59   (laughing)

01:15:01   No, I think it's about the same.

01:15:03   And the only difference is I think the Apple store

01:15:06   was a little bit less crowded when I went in.

01:15:08   Like when I got in there, I felt like, wow,

01:15:10   this is actually pretty empty for an Apple store.

01:15:13   By the time I was done with my transaction

01:15:15   and picking everything out and getting everything,

01:15:16   everything all packaged up, that store was mobbed.

01:15:18   So I think I just came before the rush.

01:15:21   - Yeah, well, a lot of times,

01:15:22   they'll have tour buses that stop there.

01:15:25   - Yeah, I don't know what, well, I did see a company tour.

01:15:27   Like it was a bunch of people in suits.

01:15:29   I think they were being led around by someone from Apple.

01:15:31   like we have them at our place to important people come and they want to show them like on a big tour and all the

01:15:36   People are all dressed up like they're executives from some other other company

01:15:39   So I saw one group like that and then just a bunch of other people that

01:15:42   Came in a big mob after me

01:15:44   The other advantage is that the the parking lots at Apple are filled with interesting cars both the visitor parking lots and the employee

01:15:50   Parking lots are filled

01:15:51   Much more interesting cars than at the Natick Mall. Sorry Natick Mall

01:15:54   Or the chestnut hill

01:15:58   Yeah, but like get lots of lots of hybrids lots of electric vehicles

01:16:02   I one of the ones I did I think back to everyone show you that the hybrid Panamera

01:16:06   No, I don't think you did it could have been one of those two hundred sixty thousand dollar

01:16:09   Models, it's all black with fancy wheels just tons of neat cars excellent. Yeah, I've never been to infinite loop I

01:16:17   Have always had something else to do

01:16:20   back when they used to do the buses at WWDC like not the official Apple once like

01:16:26   there was an organ is like a group of people that would organize a bus trip down to infinite loop and I

01:16:32   Just always had something else to do. I always visited with a with a good friend of mine and

01:16:36   So I've never ever ever been and Marco you said you've been John obviously you just went and I'm kind of jealous

01:16:42   I'd like to see it sometime especially before it goes away forever. It was organized by a friend of everybody Jeff LaMarche

01:16:48   Mmm, he organized those those pilgrimage bus tours. I don't know if I don't know if anybody still does that

01:16:53   But yeah, those are those were kind of fun

01:16:55   Yeah, it's not like it's going away, but once campus 2 opens up

01:16:57   I imagine a lot of the important things that are currently a one infinite loop will be moved to campus to like Tim Cook's office is

01:17:03   Somewhere there one infinite loop and I assume who hills will move to campus to as will many other people

01:17:07   Maybe the Apple store move. I don't know but this is the last the last moments that one infinite loop is the face of Apple

01:17:13   Yep

01:17:15   Hopefully I'll get to see it sometime maybe well potentially I have a lot of free time that week

01:17:19   So maybe I'll rent a car and go check it out. I'm sad again

01:17:24   Thank you lots for our three sponsors this week Betterment ring and fracture and we will see you next week

01:17:30   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:17:39   Accidental

01:17:43   Any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental

01:17:50   was accidental

01:17:53   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM And if you're into Twitter, you can follow

01:18:00   them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Kasey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:18:10   Auntie Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse

01:18:20   It's accidental, accidental.

01:18:23   They didn't mean to.

01:18:25   Accidental, accidental.

01:18:28   Tech podcast so long.

01:18:33   Ah, did you reload your email app?

01:18:36   I've been looking at my bank and then telling myself,

01:18:40   you're just jinxing it.

01:18:41   Stop looking.

01:18:42   Waiting five minutes.

01:18:43   Looking again.

01:18:44   You're jinxing yourself.

01:18:45   Stop looking.

01:18:46   Waiting five minutes.

01:18:47   Why are you jinxing yourself?

01:18:48   Stop jinxing yourself.

01:18:49   Exactly.

01:18:49   stop hitting yourself, stop jinxing yourself,

01:18:51   just stop all the things.

01:18:53   And no, no dice.

01:18:55   Sad Casey is sad.

01:18:57   - So if you wanna have a bit of a neutral,

01:18:59   unless we have something else to talk about.

01:19:00   - I'm talking about my bagel post.

01:19:02   - Oh yeah, first of all, yeah.

01:19:04   So we have to cover your bagel post.

01:19:06   So John, you blogged for the first time in how long?

01:19:10   - Over a year, slightly over a year.

01:19:12   - Okay.

01:19:13   The content of your blog post is a bulleted list.

01:19:19   Can you explain this blog post, please?

01:19:21   So on this podcast, it's not called Developing Perspective

01:19:23   and not called Under the Radar, but it is called Top Four.

01:19:27   Some people, one of whom is here,

01:19:29   talked about their top four bagel varieties or flavors.

01:19:34   And I listened to this podcast on the way out to San Francisco.

01:19:37   I thought I had prepared myself for this podcast.

01:19:41   One person involved in the podcast

01:19:43   grew up on Long Island like I did,

01:19:45   and the other person was Marco.

01:19:46   But I felt like I was ready.

01:19:48   I was not ready for the list that would appear.

01:19:51   I could not have predicted these lists.

01:19:53   They were just more upsetting and fantastical and unexpected than I could have imagined.

01:20:01   I paid for the in-flight Wi-Fi just so I could complain to Marco directly about this podcast.

01:20:06   And I vowed that when I got done with this vacation, I was going to blog again.

01:20:11   And what I was going to blog was a list of canonical bagel flavors.

01:20:15   And that's exactly what I did.

01:20:17   I made a blog post that lists the canonical bagel flavors.

01:20:20   And I feel like this needed to be done for posterity,

01:20:25   that Google will spider it, that archive.org will archive it

01:20:28   somewhere, that someday aliens will dig up our civilization

01:20:32   when we're long gone and find this blog post that is

01:20:34   a sink to the point, not a lot of dancing around.

01:20:37   It's just a list that lists the canonical bagel flavors.

01:20:40   And I feel much better having done it.

01:20:42   And yes, it happens to be about a year since last time.

01:20:46   - Yeah, so obviously I have some nitpicks here.

01:20:49   The flavors you've listed are noticeably missing

01:20:52   some of the ones that we mentioned during our show.

01:20:54   And there are some that we even said during the show

01:20:56   were not canonical old school bagels,

01:20:59   like the Asiago cheese bagel.

01:21:00   You know, that's--

01:21:01   - I don't think you need to say old school.

01:21:04   I didn't want to put a lot of commentary in this

01:21:05   'cause I don't think it's necessary for the post.

01:21:07   But for the purposes of the podcast,

01:21:09   there is a distinction to be made between

01:21:11   this is not a bagel versus this is a canonical bagel flavor.

01:21:15   You understand?

01:21:16   Like the distinction, like the sort of,

01:21:18   well, let's make up,

01:21:21   I'm trying to make up one that doesn't actually exist

01:21:23   and I don't know if I'm gonna succeed,

01:21:24   but let's say the cheesecake bagel is not a bagel.

01:21:28   - I guarantee you it exists somewhere in the Midwest.

01:21:30   - Someone is making that, right?

01:21:32   But there are bagels on this list that are bagels

01:21:35   that are just not among the canonical bagel flavors.

01:21:37   There were some difficult decisions to make.

01:21:39   I'm not gonna lie,

01:21:40   I thought I was gonna rattle this thing off.

01:21:41   Push came to shove,

01:21:42   I had to make some very hard calls to you

01:21:44   that some people are upset about it.

01:21:45   and I understand their upset.

01:21:47   The big one I feel like is garlic.

01:21:49   Garlic bagel is a bagel, right?

01:21:51   - Oh yeah, so--

01:21:52   - It just missed the list.

01:21:54   - Well, so I'm curious, so like, you have,

01:21:56   obviously you have plain, poppy, sesame, everything.

01:21:58   Those, for bagel places, those are always like the top four

01:22:03   that, that, ding, that always sell.

01:22:05   - Not on your list, not on your list, Mr. Asiago Cheese.

01:22:08   Oh, that was Tiff, sorry.

01:22:09   - By sales volume, actually, I bet Asiago Cheese

01:22:11   is up there for stores that do sell it,

01:22:14   especially those in the Midwest, but--

01:22:15   - Not a bagel, by the way.

01:22:17   - No, it's still, look, so anyway,

01:22:19   there are some inconsistencies, I think, in your list.

01:22:22   So obviously, plain, poppy, sesame, everything,

01:22:25   those have to be on every bagel list,

01:22:27   'cause just by sales volume, people have voted,

01:22:29   and that's what always goes there.

01:22:30   - No, that's not how this list works.

01:22:31   This list does not work by sales volume.

01:22:33   - Well, but, so I'm curious, you've included onion

01:22:36   and salt, but not garlic. - Yes, yes.

01:22:38   - That seems inconsistent. - That's right.

01:22:40   It's a tough call.

01:22:41   Here's the, here's the, there is a,

01:22:43   if you go through this list,

01:22:44   this list is like a little story, right?

01:22:46   It's not, it's an unordered list, it's OL.

01:22:48   Or it's, it's a, no, UL, right?

01:22:50   It's not OL, it's UL, right?

01:22:51   It's an unordered list, but there is an order.

01:22:53   So I'm not, plain is there,

01:22:55   but it's not next to a number one, next to a bullet point.

01:22:57   But this is the reason it's at the top, right?

01:22:59   It's, you start off and you feel like,

01:23:01   you know, all right, plain, poppy, sesame.

01:23:02   And I spent a long time thinking about

01:23:04   whether poppy or sesame would come second, all right?

01:23:08   Egg, cinnamon raisin, which Marco keeps omitting

01:23:11   for some strange reason.

01:23:12   - Well, it's further down the list.

01:23:13   And by sales volume, by the way,

01:23:15   I think Sesame outdoes Poppy.

01:23:17   - Sales volume does not factor into this.

01:23:20   - I think sales volume,

01:23:21   it would be plain everything Sesame Poppy.

01:23:24   - It depends on where it's being sold and who's buying.

01:23:28   So, cinnamon raisin throws things off a little bit,

01:23:31   and then you've got everything,

01:23:33   and you've got egg everything.

01:23:35   Why is egg everything even on this list?

01:23:37   Why is it not next to egg?

01:23:39   Why is it under everything?

01:23:41   Why does cinnamon raisin come between it?

01:23:43   - I was gonna nitpick your inclusion

01:23:45   of egg everything as well, 'cause I don't think,

01:23:48   on a list that's this restrictive and this short,

01:23:50   I don't think egg everything belongs on that list.

01:23:52   - I know, but like, so here's the, I spent a long time,

01:23:55   I spent the whole vacation thinking about this, right?

01:23:57   Why is egg everything on the list and garlic is not?

01:24:00   It just, this is what it comes down to.

01:24:02   These are the canonical flavors.

01:24:03   Garlic does not make the cut.

01:24:05   Egg everything does.

01:24:06   Egg everything is the most borderline.

01:24:08   If I had to delete one, I would delete egg everything.

01:24:10   Right?

01:24:11   If I had to make the list one shorter.

01:24:12   Uh, but no, but this is it.

01:24:14   Onion, onion makes it.

01:24:16   Salt makes it.

01:24:17   Pumpernickel.

01:24:18   People don't talk about Pumpernickel, but it's there.

01:24:19   I talked about Pumpernickel.

01:24:20   You gotta talk about rye, which is not-

01:24:22   I said the rye family of flavors, which includes-

01:24:25   Yeah, you can't, like in your typical one, I'm trying to pick 17 different bagels for

01:24:28   your item number four.

01:24:30   Pumpernickel is a rye.

01:24:31   I know, but you have to pick one!

01:24:33   - It includes rye, marble, and pumpernickel

01:24:35   in the rye family of bagels.

01:24:38   Because most places don't have all three of those,

01:24:40   and so if I want that, I will pick whichever one

01:24:43   of those they have that looks the best.

01:24:45   - You also pick the one that you didn't know the name of,

01:24:47   which was like the one with oats on the outside

01:24:49   that's brown, yeah.

01:24:51   - What is that called, according to you,

01:24:52   even though it isn't on this list, apparently?

01:24:54   Unless it's called Egg Everything.

01:24:56   - The reason it's not on the list is it doesn't have a name.

01:24:57   Some people call it multi-grain,

01:24:59   some people call it wheat or grain,

01:25:02   It's not even, no, it does not make the list.

01:25:05   Does not make the list.

01:25:06   - I have a question.

01:25:08   What is it that makes bagels in New York and Montreal,

01:25:12   although Montreal is a loose definition of bagel,

01:25:14   what is it that makes both of those,

01:25:17   what is it that makes both of those bagels so good?

01:25:20   - I don't know.

01:25:26   There's been a lot of research about this.

01:25:28   Is it the water, is it the starter, is it the,

01:25:30   I think, I mean, obviously this is the basics like cooking technique.

01:25:33   Like if you don't boil your bagels, you're not making bagels and that, just forget it.

01:25:37   They're totally off the rails there.

01:25:38   But I mean, this is recipe, ingredients, and preparation and caring about what you make.

01:25:44   I mean, like think about Lenders Bagels.

01:25:46   Like Lenders Bagels are supermarket bagels made in techniques that have to scale up to

01:25:52   huge volumes.

01:25:53   Real bagels, they make them in the morning and you come and buy them.

01:25:55   And as Marco pointed out on the show, if you come in the afternoon, they're not as good.

01:25:58   And that's just the kind of product.

01:26:00   you're not going to ship it in a truck across the country frozen. It's not going to be the same

01:26:04   thing. I don't know why Montreal has a particular bagel culture, but it's like bread. Why is bread

01:26:08   good in some places? Why do you have bad supermarket bread and some bakeries have really

01:26:12   good bread? And the bakeries have really good bread. Where do you get that bread and when?

01:26:16   It's a time of day and they make it every day. And that's what it comes down to.

01:26:21   You're wrong. All right, here's the thing. The chat room is wrong. You're wrong. I'm really

01:26:25   disappointed in everyone. Though the origins of bagels are somewhat obscure, says the origin

01:26:29   of truth Wikipedia, it is known that they were widely consumed in the Eastern European

01:26:34   Jewish communities from the 17th century. The reason that New York bagels and Montreal

01:26:40   air quote bagels air quote are so good is because of the significant Jewish population

01:26:45   in both of those cities. Of the three of us, I think we can unequivocally decide which

01:26:51   one of us is the most Jewish of the three of us, and that is yours truly. And the fact that you two

01:26:56   are arguing about something that you are completely unqualified to discuss, I just think is hysterical.

01:27:01   False. You didn't grow up in New York, the New York metro area. You do nothing about bagels,

01:27:05   Jon Snow. No, nothing about them. It doesn't come as part of your genetics. You don't make bagels

01:27:10   for a living. And even if you did, you don't make them in the New York metro area. People who know

01:27:14   food know it from where they grow up with it. That's where the knowledge of the food comes from,

01:27:18   Not from any sort of, not in your DNA.

01:27:21   And never mind, like the heritage,

01:27:22   it's like me claiming to know stuff about Italian food.

01:27:24   I know nothing about Italian food.

01:27:25   I've never been to Italy.

01:27:26   I know Italian-American food,

01:27:28   'cause I'm Italian-American,

01:27:29   and those immigrants came to where I grew up,

01:27:31   and they sold food there.

01:27:33   And I fully expect the New York metro area bagels

01:27:36   had nothing to do with whatever bagels

01:27:37   you're talking about in the 17th century from Europe.

01:27:39   Who knows what those were like?

01:27:40   All I know is what they're like in the New York metro area.

01:27:42   - John, you forget that I spent a large portion

01:27:46   of my childhood either in New York State

01:27:48   or in Connecticut, literally so close to New York,

01:27:50   I could walk and get there.

01:27:52   That's how close I was.

01:27:54   - Yeah, uh-huh, that's what people who are not

01:27:56   in the New York metro area say about it.

01:27:57   I was in Connecticut, that's like New York.

01:27:59   We have Frank Pepe's, it's just, no.

01:28:01   (laughs)

01:28:02   - So two things, number one, I think all of our

01:28:05   cultural backgrounds aside, I think this is one

01:28:07   of those things where you have to pull a GIF/George Lucas

01:28:11   and just say, you know what, even though academically

01:28:13   you should be right on this, you're not.

01:28:15   And secondly, only one of us still lives in the New York metro area.

01:28:19   Yeah, well, Marco, the only thing you can lord over us, Marco, is that you have access

01:28:23   to good bagels.

01:28:24   And believe me, I am sufficiently jealous of that.

01:28:27   Believe me.

01:28:29   And sometimes when we discuss, you know, like when you were talking about like, what if

01:28:32   Marco would ever move someplace other than New York?

01:28:35   And I would say, why would he do that?

01:28:36   He would be leaving behind pizza and bagels.

01:28:38   Why would he ever move?

01:28:39   I would hate you so much if you ever moved.

01:28:40   Because I'd be like, you're throwing it away.

01:28:42   You've got it right there.

01:28:43   You've got a house.

01:28:44   You've got a Tesla.

01:28:45   got a kid, you got bagels and pizza,

01:28:46   why would you ever go any, oh, self employment tax,

01:28:49   blah, blah, blah, now it's worth it for the bagels.

01:28:51   - Yeah, there's a reason I still tolerate

01:28:52   all of New York's BS, because I like a lot of the stuff here.

01:28:56   (laughing)

01:28:57   Believe me, New York has no shortage of BS and hostility

01:29:00   that encourages people to flee,

01:29:03   but those of us who are still here,

01:29:05   which is one of us, are here for good reasons.

01:29:10   Good, round, malted reasons.

01:29:14   - To make it so that no one who listens to this podcast

01:29:15   ever actually has to go to this blog post,

01:29:18   after the list it says, "Also, Bialy's."

01:29:20   (laughing)

01:29:21   - Yeah, which I have no problem including Bialy's,

01:29:23   although I'm not sure I would call the Bialy

01:29:26   a bagel flavor.

01:29:27   - It's not, it says, "Also,"

01:29:29   it's a separate list, "Also, Bialy's."

01:29:33   - Yeah, but the title of the entire post is

01:29:35   "canonical bagel flavors," and it includes lists,

01:29:37   and then-- - And then it says,

01:29:38   "These are the canonical bagel flavors,"

01:29:39   and it gives a list, and then it says, "Also, Bialy's."

01:29:41   It's trying to say, "Also, Bialy's exist."

01:29:43   - And they are good.

01:29:44   (laughing)

01:29:46   - Wow.

01:29:47   - Oh my God.

01:29:47   - And they are good, although I'm not so sure

01:29:49   about your supermarket Bialy's.

01:29:50   I feel like something's up here.

01:29:52   - You should, next time you're here,

01:29:53   I'll have you try one and you can tell me how it compares.

01:29:55   I have had Bialy's from like good bagel bakeries and stuff

01:29:58   and they're good too, but the supermarket ones

01:30:00   I think are just better than the ones I've had.

01:30:03   Now, granted, I haven't looked very hard

01:30:05   at like what's the best Bialy in Westchester or the city.

01:30:07   I haven't looked that hard, but the Bialy's I've had

01:30:10   at bagel places have not been substantially better

01:30:13   or better at all than the ones I get from my local grocery store. Now I know that's

01:30:18   probably I'm probably missing something big here because that shouldn't be the case.

01:30:21   Maybe they're buying them from a local bagel place. It could be the same. You have to know

01:30:24   where they're sourced from. It could be the same thing. It could be the bagel place that

01:30:27   goes into the supermarket and sells them. But anyway, I'm not a big fan of Bialy's,

01:30:33   but I always felt like when we would get bagels growing up, maybe one or two Bialy's turn

01:30:37   in. They could eat them. It's just in the mix.

01:30:42   Where do we go from here?

01:30:43   Where do we even go?

01:30:44   How can we, I mean, go to Margo's house and buy bagels, what we gotta do.

01:30:49   Oh, uh, what were we gonna talk about the Tesla?

01:30:53   I was in a Tesla earlier today.

01:30:55   Well, I just had a minor update, but it's not time sensitive, so you can, uh, let's

01:31:00   hear about your time in a Tesla.

01:31:02   Oh, it really was uneventful.

01:31:04   I went from work to my favorite local barbecue joint and then back, and I was a passenger,

01:31:10   but it was good.

01:31:11   Cool, all right.

01:31:12   Were you in the back seat or front seat?

01:31:14   Yeah, I was in the front seat.

01:31:16   I fiddled with the comically, absurdly, ridiculously

01:31:19   oversized touchscreen.

01:31:23   I learned that Tesla has its own Pandora-esque service.

01:31:28   Well, no, it's Slacker.

01:31:29   Oh, whatever it is.

01:31:31   I learned the web browser is being

01:31:33   used by enterprising developers to make

01:31:36   kind of sort of third party mega air quotes apps mega air quotes.

01:31:40   Oh, the browser's terrible.

01:31:42   Yeah, but I forget what underscore had on his, but it was something that like integrated

01:31:46   traffic and issue reporting from Waze with the onboard GPS because it just uses the HTML5

01:31:53   location API. And I don't recall exactly what the URL was. I don't recall exactly what it was called,

01:31:58   but it would show a map with the stuff that Waze reported. And Waze is very good about having up to

01:32:05   the second accurate reports on traffic conditions and obstructions and police officers and things of

01:32:10   of that nature. - That's interesting.

01:32:11   - So he had that up on his web browser.

01:32:13   Well, he didn't have the web browser up at all,

01:32:14   but when I was fiddling with it while he was driving,

01:32:17   that's the last thing he had had up on his web browser.

01:32:20   That was pretty neat.

01:32:21   I don't know, it's impressive.

01:32:23   - Actually, I tried when I first got it,

01:32:25   I actually tried to see like,

01:32:27   can I use that as an overcast interface?

01:32:30   And the basic answer is no, because there is no ability

01:32:35   for the browser to play audio.

01:32:38   I assume for safety or DOT regulations,

01:32:41   they've disabled audio and video elements

01:32:43   from playing in the built-in browser.

01:32:45   But video makes sense, audio I don't think does,

01:32:48   'cause there's lots of other ways to play audio

01:32:50   from the internet in the Tesla, so I don't know.

01:32:53   - Fair enough, so what's your update?

01:32:55   - So I wanted to put somewhere,

01:32:59   and I was either gonna be a blog post or here,

01:33:00   and here is probably the better place for it,

01:33:02   just the sheer difference in how other people

01:33:07   people seem to be perceiving me having a Tesla,

01:33:11   like people in the world, my neighbors, things like that.

01:33:16   So, you know, coming from a loud, black, sporty BMW

01:33:21   to a silent, red, environmental future car,

01:33:27   I feel like the way, like, so I know, like,

01:33:30   I know immediately, like, my neighbors

01:33:33   and the people on the block hated hearing my loud car,

01:33:36   and they probably thought I was a jerk for driving it.

01:33:38   And even when I wasn't going fast,

01:33:39   it sounded like I was going fast,

01:33:41   and I would imagine that didn't win me any favors

01:33:45   around the block.

01:33:46   And nobody ever commented,

01:33:48   like if I was getting out of the car,

01:33:51   or if somebody saw me in it with the windows down

01:33:53   or in the parking lot,

01:33:55   nobody ever commented positively about the BMW,

01:33:58   except occasionally some dude in his 20s,

01:34:03   "Hey, nice," something like that, but that would be it.

01:34:05   - Car guys, car guys look appreciatively.

01:34:07   I look at appreciatively at the M cars that I see.

01:34:10   - Sure, yeah, so do I still, but anyway.

01:34:12   - Wait, wait, but people would make snarky comments

01:34:14   about the loudness of it or whatever?

01:34:18   - Absolutely, yeah, neighbors and yeah, like, you know,

01:34:21   it was noticed and was generally not appreciated

01:34:24   by many of the people around it.

01:34:26   And I just kinda, like, you just kinda get the feel

01:34:29   like people think I'm a jerk by driving this car.

01:34:32   You know, 'cause you kind of seem like a jerk

01:34:34   if you drive a loud--

01:34:35   - Do you think that Tesla is helping with that?

01:34:37   Or hurting you?

01:34:38   - Right, so I expected, you know,

01:34:41   this might be a little bit worse in some ways,

01:34:44   especially 'cause now it's red,

01:34:45   so it's kind of more in your face.

01:34:48   But turns out the way people treat somebody driving

01:34:52   a red Tesla is way more positive

01:34:55   than the way they treat people driving a loud black BMW.

01:34:58   So first of all, I have gotten so many questions

01:35:04   from people about it.

01:35:05   This has been the biggest,

01:35:06   and this is kinda what I wanted to talk about.

01:35:07   It's like the amount of questions I've gotten

01:35:09   has been shocking, and most of the questions

01:35:13   are roughly in the same small group of buckets,

01:35:16   but what's interesting I think is just like,

01:35:18   when you're driving a loud black sports car,

01:35:21   even in an area, like where I live, there's lots of BMWs,

01:35:24   but even in an area worth lots of other

01:35:27   loud black sports cars.

01:35:28   - M5 is not a sports car, point of order.

01:35:31   - Okay, I'm not sure I agree with that, but okay.

01:35:34   You don't agree with that? The M5 is not a sports car. It's a sports sedan.

01:35:38   Mmm. I don't agree with that.

01:35:40   Yeah, I don't know if Koops cornered the market on good cars.

01:35:44   You guys can be happy to be wrong. It is not a sports car.

01:35:46   That's fine.

01:35:47   Although, well, but I tell you what, whether or not it is a sports car, and I know Marco said this,

01:35:51   but I think I should double down on this, like it is really loud.

01:35:55   Like stunningly loud for a stock, completely unmodified car.

01:36:00   and you could absolutely hear Marco coming from several houses away, if not like a block or two

01:36:06   away. And that's not even necessarily because he tends to drive quickly. Just in general, like,

01:36:12   if you've heard a loud car and you're thinking to yourself, "Oh yeah, whatever, I've heard a

01:36:16   loud car, they're not that loud." No, really. This thing is very loud, or the M5 was very,

01:36:22   very loud. I like that. It made a good sound on the outside. Oh, me too. Me too. I'm not complaining.

01:36:28   I'm not complaining at all. I'm just saying if you've never heard an M5, you'd be surprised

01:36:33   about how loud it is.

01:36:34   Yeah, and all the M cars are tuned specifically to be loud. Like, the 1M was that loud, all

01:36:39   the M3s are that loud. Like, that's just, that's intentional, you know. So anyway, and

01:36:44   I didn't, you know, I wouldn't choose that. I didn't have it because it was loud. I had

01:36:48   it because it was fast. And it just so happened that to get things that fast, you had to also

01:36:52   get them loud because that's just the way they were sold. Because most people who buy

01:36:55   want them to be that loud. Anyway, so now I have this silent car that is, I guess, more

01:37:02   friendly. And so I'm getting tons of compliments on it from strangers, oftentimes, or people

01:37:10   who have never commented about my car before. Like, when I get out of the parking lot, I'll

01:37:14   have questions from people like, "Oh, is that, what is that? Is that electric? Is that

01:37:18   a Tesla?" And so first of all, Tesla has a level of awareness in the public that I

01:37:24   it was way higher than I expected.

01:37:26   It's almost like an Apple level of awareness.

01:37:28   Like, the amount of questioning I get

01:37:30   and the excitement people have over it

01:37:33   is almost like when the iPhone first came out,

01:37:35   if you had the very first iPhone,

01:37:37   you'd have people, people would over,

01:37:39   would like see you with it and be like,

01:37:40   oh my god, is that the iPhone?

01:37:42   And they start asking you a couple questions about it

01:37:43   or they wanna see it.

01:37:45   That's how people are with the Tesla.

01:37:46   Everyone seems to know, first of all,

01:37:49   that there's a super fast one.

01:37:50   And so I always have to kind of say,

01:37:51   no, I didn't get that one.

01:37:52   So, you know, they're always like,

01:37:53   oh, is this the insane one?

01:37:54   "No, I didn't get the insane one.

01:37:55   "It's still a fast car, I didn't get that one."

01:37:58   - Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

01:38:00   - I know, right?

01:38:01   (laughing)

01:38:02   And then everyone also knows about autopilot.

01:38:06   And this was kind of surprising,

01:38:07   'cause I didn't think it made that big of a splash,

01:38:09   or it was that big of a deal,

01:38:11   but everyone's like, "Is this the one that can steer itself?"

01:38:13   And again, these are not necessarily car nerds,

01:38:17   it's like regular people know,

01:38:18   and they're asking about this,

01:38:20   and they ask, "How does it go on the highway?

01:38:22   can you fill it up?

01:38:24   And some people ask, is there also a gas engine?

01:38:27   And blah, blah, blah.

01:38:28   So I'm doing a lot of explaining.

01:38:30   And I assume, if you were one of the people

01:38:32   who had the first Prius,

01:38:34   I assume that you got a lot of questioning there.

01:38:38   Even if you had one of the first electric vehicles

01:38:40   that were pure electric,

01:38:42   like the Nissan Leaf or something like that,

01:38:45   I would imagine you'd occasionally get a question

01:38:47   from somebody if they saw you plugging it in.

01:38:50   And so that would kind of call out

01:38:52   that this is something different.

01:38:53   But this is like when I'm just driving around.

01:38:56   Everyone just is really curious about this car.

01:38:58   I'm getting so many questions.

01:39:01   The one thing that seems to blow people's mind the most,

01:39:04   well, two things.

01:39:05   Number one, how much space there is inside,

01:39:06   if they look inside.

01:39:07   Number two, the big thing that blows everyone's mind

01:39:10   is that superchargers are free.

01:39:13   - Hmm, interesting.

01:39:15   - That idea, you know, it's just like how things being free

01:39:18   kind of make people's brains explode.

01:39:20   I'm witnessing that.

01:39:21   'Cause they will inevitably ask,

01:39:24   how do you do it on long highway drives, can you do it?

01:39:27   And I'll mention the superchargers.

01:39:29   And they always ask, oh, but how much does it cost

01:39:31   to fill up at those?

01:39:33   And so, oh, it's free, it's included.

01:39:35   And they're like, what?

01:39:37   And they cannot, it blows their mind

01:39:39   that you can fill up for free,

01:39:42   even if it takes 45 minutes.

01:39:43   It blows their mind that this is just free.

01:39:46   Even though, if they charge for it,

01:39:48   it would probably only be like $2.

01:39:50   It wouldn't be a lot of money if they're charging

01:39:52   whatever a fair rate would be for that electricity.

01:39:55   But just the idea of that being free

01:39:56   just blows people's minds.

01:39:58   It's really interesting and I've never gotten

01:40:01   the level of strangers coming up to me

01:40:04   about anything that I have about this car.

01:40:06   - So did you sell some Teslas or do they eventually

01:40:08   ask you how much it costs and then they run away?

01:40:10   - I tend to not bring up the cost and they don't either.

01:40:13   And also a lot of them know about the Model 3.

01:40:18   A lot of them are like, oh yeah, I heard about the new one,

01:40:22   it's gonna be a lot cheaper.

01:40:23   So I'm telling you, the level of awareness,

01:40:27   public awareness and public interest in this company

01:40:32   is way off the charts compared to what I expected.

01:40:36   - So how old are the people who are asking these questions?

01:40:38   Is kids, adults, really old people?

01:40:41   - I mean, there aren't that many kids in this area, honestly.

01:40:44   I would say-- - Gonna let the kids in there.

01:40:47   - No, well, yeah.

01:40:48   - Well, say you arrived to get chicken salad

01:40:50   in the Lamborghini.

01:40:51   The five kids that are in your town

01:40:53   would be talking to you about that car, right?

01:40:55   - Probably, but yeah, no, I mean,

01:40:57   most of the people asking are, I'd say,

01:40:59   in their 40s to 60s.

01:41:01   - That's average who you'd expect to see,

01:41:03   just the people that are there.

01:41:04   I'm just wondering if it attracts,

01:41:06   like the Tesla awareness, is it skewing young or old?

01:41:09   - I would say it's all over the map.

01:41:11   Like the electricians who were here the other day,

01:41:13   like they, obviously they've seen them before

01:41:15   because they have installed Tesla outlets for people before.

01:41:18   But they were asking all sorts of questions about it,

01:41:20   and it was an older guy and a younger guy.

01:41:22   And then, like, today, when I was getting lunch today,

01:41:26   one of the clerks at the post office,

01:41:29   who I knew from going in there a few times,

01:41:30   she was in the parking lot, she's like,

01:41:31   "Oh my God, that's your car, that's beautiful!"

01:41:34   And she called her husband out of her car to come see it.

01:41:37   Everyone is so interested in this car.

01:41:40   And it's not like, this is not the first Tesla

01:41:43   in my neighborhood.

01:41:44   there's at least four others that I see around

01:41:46   on a regular basis, and have for a while now.

01:41:50   So it's not like it's especially the first one

01:41:53   that's been around.

01:41:54   - How much of a factor do you think the color is?

01:41:57   - Certainly some, you know, 'cause being a red car,

01:41:58   but it's not like, you know, there are other red cars.

01:42:01   There's lots of other red cars in town.

01:42:04   It's not like Ferrari red, it's not like a bright cherry.

01:42:07   It's kind of like a medium red.

01:42:09   It's not super intense.

01:42:11   It doesn't seem like it would be that visually catchy

01:42:14   of a car, like it doesn't look that unusual compared to other cars.

01:42:17   Speaking of unusual cars, when I was out in California, I saw for the first time i3s,

01:42:23   which are everywhere there and are butt ugly, and the Model X, which are also all over there

01:42:27   and are also butt ugly.

01:42:28   I have not seen an X yet in person.

01:42:30   There was a lot of them in California, do not like.

01:42:33   Yeah, I can't argue with that.

01:42:35   Just as ungainly, I saw one in white, it literally looked like one of those, what do you call

01:42:40   What, the uh, those whales that are white?

01:42:45   Starts with a B maybe?

01:42:46   Chat room, help me out.

01:42:48   Beluga?

01:42:49   Casey's BMW?

01:42:50   Ha ha ha ha ha.

01:42:51   I'm already hurting, you don't need to stab me in the back too, you know.

01:42:55   Gah, it's a tough crowd tonight.

01:42:58   I'm sorry about your white car, Casey.

01:43:00   I'm not.

01:43:01   Sorry about my lack of a ticket, but I'm not sorry about my white car.

01:43:04   You should be.

01:43:05   No, it didn't look like Moby Dick.

01:43:07   Moby Dick was a sperm whale.

01:43:09   I think, right?

01:43:11   I don't know.

01:43:12   I don't know if they say it.

01:43:13   You think I actually read any of the books I'm supposed to read in school?

01:43:16   No, I don't know.

01:43:17   Do you like, Marco, having these people come up and ask you these questions?

01:43:21   Like, obviously there's times when it's convenient, times are where it isn't, but in the grand

01:43:25   scheme of things, do you find it kind of neat, or are you kind of like, "Dudes, leave me

01:43:29   alone"?

01:43:30   Oh, I don't—I mean, so far, it's just kind of—it's novel, you know, because I've never

01:43:34   had anybody express that kind of interest in the things I was driving in the chicken

01:43:38   parking lot.

01:43:39   So he's going to print out laminated cards to just hand to people.

01:43:41   Soon as someone asks a question, "Ahh!"

01:43:43   Here, take this card.

01:43:44   Here's an FAQ.

01:43:45   Right.

01:43:46   Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, ask me again in a year.

01:43:50   It might have gotten old by that point, but no, so far it's just kind of cool.

01:43:54   Like I, you know, I mean, environmental people who drive fun cars, who drive like, you know,

01:43:59   like the first Hybrids or the first EVs, like, you know, like people have had these questions

01:44:02   for other owners before, and I've seen people write about it, and like it seems like it's

01:44:06   It's kind of like just kind of a fun thing

01:44:07   of having these cars.

01:44:09   I think what surprises me is that it's still going on.

01:44:11   Like I kind of thought we'd be past the stage

01:44:13   where these things would be novel, but we're not.

01:44:15   [door closes]