163: Wet Right Thumb


00:00:00   I'm starting to think seasonal allergies are some kind of bullsh*t.

00:00:05   Like not that they're not real, but that I, so I have in the last few years gotten really

00:00:12   bad seasonal allergies.

00:00:14   And it seems like every single year it is not only worse, but that everybody else is

00:00:20   saying "Oh you know I read or heard blah blah blah, this is the worst year ever for

00:00:24   pollen or whatever whatever."

00:00:26   Yeah of course it is.

00:00:27   How is every year the worst year ever?

00:00:29   And this sounds like something is wrong.

00:00:32   How is every year the hottest year ever?

00:00:33   I don't know if they're linked together, but it could be that it makes for a greenhouse

00:00:38   effect, let's call it.

00:00:39   It might make for easier to have more growing things that produce more pollen.

00:00:43   I have no idea if that is even the case, but doesn't it sound plausible?

00:00:48   What I see is a problem that used to not exist as much, that now is exploding in existence

00:00:55   and it seems to affect tons of people.

00:00:58   And the best thing we can do is take medicines

00:01:03   that not only don't work, but that when they don't work,

00:01:06   the people who tell you to take them say,

00:01:09   oh, well, it didn't work this time

00:01:11   because you didn't start taking it a few weeks beforehand,

00:01:15   or, oh, you're building up a tolerance,

00:01:17   it'll start working eventually.

00:01:19   I mean, it's like, I feel like I'm spending

00:01:21   whatever it is, a dollar fifty a day

00:01:23   on these pills that do nothing every year,

00:01:26   it's worse and worse, I don't know.

00:01:30   So I mean, when I was a kid, I used to take allergy shots

00:01:32   'cause I had bad allergies and that made them a lot better.

00:01:35   And I heard adults do allergy shots sometimes

00:01:38   for seasonal allergies.

00:01:40   Do any of you have, you in the chat,

00:01:42   does anybody have experience with that?

00:01:44   'Cause I would gladly do allergy shots again

00:01:47   if it could fix this 'cause every year,

00:01:50   at least in the spring, sometimes also in the fall,

00:01:52   I'm just useless for like two weeks.

00:01:55   And the combination of like sick kids season

00:01:58   in the winter preceding this, it's just exhausting

00:02:00   and it makes it hard to do anything.

00:02:02   - You should try some, what is it, homeopathic,

00:02:04   homeopathic, however you pronounce it,

00:02:06   what are some of those remedies?

00:02:07   'Cause I hear they work really well.

00:02:08   - Oh, I'm already taking them by not taking them.

00:02:11   (laughing)

00:02:12   I'm taking the maximum effective dose

00:02:14   by not taking them at all.

00:02:15   (laughing)

00:02:17   Right, like divide by zero,

00:02:18   something like that works out right.

00:02:19   (electronic beeping)

00:02:21   So let's do some follow up.

00:02:23   And it starts with, we got a lot of feedback

00:02:26   about how Walmart is energy efficient.

00:02:29   And I don't even recall having talked about that

00:02:32   in the prior episode.

00:02:33   I remember talking about energy efficiency, of course,

00:02:35   but I guess one of us made some sort of

00:02:37   flippant comment about it and have--

00:02:39   - Yeah, that was me.

00:02:40   I threw Walmart under the bus because they're

00:02:42   the standard bearer for a terrible,

00:02:45   giant American company, right?

00:02:47   And so I just assumed that they were also

00:02:50   the type of company that would pinch pennies

00:02:52   and not bother investing in green energy,

00:02:54   but that is not the case.

00:02:55   We will link to Walmart's website

00:02:58   where they will talk about all of their renewable plans.

00:03:00   They plan to be on 100% renewable energy by 2020,

00:03:04   so they're not quite where Apple is today,

00:03:06   but they have plans to get there.

00:03:08   They have a whole big page on their website

00:03:10   about sustainability.

00:03:11   I hesitate to say this because I'm sure

00:03:15   we'll just get more email from people telling me

00:03:17   that Walmart doesn't do anything bad ever.

00:03:19   Well, that's not true.

00:03:20   - I only wish that their sustainability

00:03:22   that they have on this page extended

00:03:23   to the sustainability of their workforce

00:03:25   as in paying them enough to be alive

00:03:27   (laughing)

00:03:28   and healthy and not relying on,

00:03:31   well, if they can't get pay and benefits through us,

00:03:33   the government will pick up the slack.

00:03:34   Anyway, I don't like Walmart, have you noticed?

00:03:37   But they are actually doing solar stuff,

00:03:39   so I was wrong on that.

00:03:40   So there you go, Walmart boosters.

00:03:43   They're out there.

00:03:44   - In Walmart's defense, which is probably a phrase

00:03:47   you will never hear me say again.

00:03:49   - This is nice.

00:03:50   (laughing)

00:03:51   - But in Walmart's defense,

00:03:53   if you look at other retailers like Amazon, for instance,

00:03:57   it's often not a lot better.

00:03:59   What's mostly at fault here is retail is a terrible

00:04:04   and extremely cutthroat business,

00:04:06   and government regulations on things like minimum wage

00:04:10   simply don't go far enough.

00:04:12   Okay, please do email us, next topic.

00:04:14   - Well, I wouldn't call that in Walmart's defense.

00:04:17   That would just be saying like Walmart does bad things and also other people do too.

00:04:21   And so they're also bad.

00:04:22   It doesn't make them any better to find other people who do the bad thing.

00:04:25   And we're not going to get into like, you know, like well if you know, like the minimum

00:04:28   wage is like well if my competitors can pay their employees this low and if we don't we're

00:04:34   going to go out of business.

00:04:35   Anyway, yes, there's lots of blame to go around but Walmart is far from blameless.

00:04:40   But they do put solar panels on the roof of things.

00:04:43   So they've got that going for them.

00:04:45   thing they do okay.

00:04:47   Whee!

00:04:48   Alright, so why don't you tell us about USB ports on the iPad Pro, because apparently

00:04:52   we're all confused about it.

00:04:54   We are?

00:04:55   No, not confused.

00:04:56   I was just thinking about it the other day.

00:04:57   It's not what you think.

00:04:58   It's not like, "Oh, the USB 2 speeds on the 9.7" iPad and stuff like that."

00:05:02   What I was thinking about is, you've got this relatively huge iPad Pro, the big one, and

00:05:08   even the regular size iPad has a lot of room on it.

00:05:11   And these days the only thing on them, now that they've removed the rotation lock and

00:05:16   everything is like power, volume, and of course the home button and the touch ID sensor, but

00:05:23   then this one tiny little lightning port on the side.

00:05:25   And I was like, "Well, what's the next step for the big iPad Pro?"

00:05:28   You've got keyboards that you can attach to them, it's got a smart connector on the side,

00:05:33   you know, it's got a stylus.

00:05:36   And I was mostly inspired by Marco talking last week about, "Oh, you could always hook

00:05:40   up USB things to iPads and iOS devices and they would just magically work if you could

00:05:44   somehow find a way to power them if they didn't get enough power from the port and stuff like

00:05:47   that, like the drivers are all in there.

00:05:51   So the big iPad Pro, why would you not have actual USB ports on it?

00:05:57   I mean I guess not more than one because you wouldn't want them to be more powerful than

00:05:59   a MacBook One, right?

00:06:00   But anyway, why wouldn't you, as opposed to having a camera adapter and all this other

00:06:07   stuff like, you know, or an SD card slot or whatever, but there's just so much freaking

00:06:11   room on the big iPad Pro. But as far as USB connectors, Apple has painted itself into

00:06:17   kind of a corner with the lightning thing because the practical reason why you wouldn't

00:06:22   put USB connectors on the iPad is if you did put them there, they'd be USB type C, and

00:06:26   USB type C looks a hell of a lot like lightning, and I can just imagine people jamming their

00:06:30   lightning into the USB C ports or vice versa, and that's like a nightmare. The usability,

00:06:34   I mean, how could you distinguish between those two ports?

00:06:36   They are different sizes, physically speaking,

00:06:39   and probably the big one can't fit into the small one,

00:06:41   but I don't think that's the reason.

00:06:43   Well, right, but I mean,

00:06:45   I think it would be a natural evolution

00:06:47   of especially the very big iPad Pro

00:06:49   to have actual USB ports on eventually, right?

00:06:52   But I don't see how that can happen

00:06:55   when lightning looks so much like USB-C.

00:06:57   So I wonder how Apple will square that.

00:07:00   And if the answer is, oh, we're never gonna have

00:07:01   more than a lightning port on that,

00:07:03   I'm not entirely sure that's the best long-term answer

00:07:06   if they really want especially the big iPad Pro

00:07:09   to become a more and more viable laptop replacement.

00:07:13   - Ultimately, there are so many reasons

00:07:15   why you can conceivably think of why Apple

00:07:19   would not be putting USB ports on iPads

00:07:22   and iOS devices in general.

00:07:24   - But why wouldn't you put it on the big one long-term?

00:07:27   Like I understand obviously why you're not gonna put it

00:07:28   on like most of the iOS line,

00:07:30   but when you get up into something that's so big

00:07:33   that it's so obviously not intended to be

00:07:35   just a slip it into your bag type of thing,

00:07:37   but it's like it's the size of a laptop.

00:07:39   Why does that not get one, I guess,

00:07:42   Thunderbolt 3 port or whatever?

00:07:43   Because there's so much you can do.

00:07:45   Like there's so many doors that opens

00:07:47   in terms of how usable is it on your desk

00:07:49   as opposed to when you're walking around with it,

00:07:51   that it's almost a shame to be constrained

00:07:52   by lightning forever.

00:07:53   - I mean, it's possible they will at some point.

00:07:56   You know, we never say never with Apple,

00:07:59   and especially with a product line that is kind of

00:08:03   on the way down, it's sales-wise.

00:08:06   Apple has done a lot of things with the recent iPads

00:08:09   that we thought they'd never do in an effort to broaden it

00:08:13   or help it find its feet or help increase sales

00:08:16   in some way or another.

00:08:18   So I think they very well might do something like that

00:08:20   in the future.

00:08:21   I think there's lots of reasons why they haven't done it

00:08:22   so far and I think they can very easily get past

00:08:25   the physical challenges of how do you fit a port

00:08:30   and then how do you avoid confusion with the other port.

00:08:33   I think they can get around that with either by punting

00:08:36   and not solving the problem and just putting

00:08:38   a USB-C port on there, which is not that unlikely.

00:08:42   Or just ship a dongle or something.

00:08:45   Or make a new standard of USB micro C

00:08:48   and declare it an industry standard

00:08:51   even though nothing else besides Apple devices

00:08:52   will have it for three years.

00:08:53   And then that's, they could solve that problem.

00:08:56   That is not the reason they're not doing it.

00:08:59   And if they wanted to do it,

00:09:00   they would get around that problem.

00:09:02   - Yeah, I would like to see how they would get around it,

00:09:05   because USB type C seems like,

00:09:07   I mean, supposedly Apple had a lot of influence

00:09:09   in that connector, it looks a lot like Lightning.

00:09:11   It's, from all accounts, a pretty good connector

00:09:14   as far as those things go.

00:09:16   Having to come up with a new one

00:09:17   just because the existing one that hopefully by that point

00:09:20   everybody in the industry actually uses,

00:09:22   and it really is an industry standard,

00:09:23   because Apple didn't make it up,

00:09:24   having to come up with one more weird connector,

00:09:27   I don't know.

00:09:28   It seems like a shame to me.

00:09:30   It seems like a shame in the same way

00:09:31   that it has always been a shame,

00:09:33   and it continues to be a shame,

00:09:34   that Microsoft chose the same modifier key as Unix,

00:09:37   meaning that you wanna do Unix-y stuff on Windows.

00:09:40   It's a battle between the Unix-y environment

00:09:43   and the Windows environment of like, you know,

00:09:44   Control + C, does that mean, you know,

00:09:46   send the interrupt signal or copy text?

00:09:49   And it, you know, it depends on where you are.

00:09:51   Whereas Apple, through mostly accidents of history, happened to not have that problem

00:09:55   because the Mac operating system uses the command key and to a much, much lesser extent

00:10:00   the control key.

00:10:01   So the control key is almost entirely available to the Unix environment.

00:10:04   So when they did the chocolate and peanut butter combination that is or was Mac OS X

00:10:08   and now is OS X, it was beautiful.

00:10:10   And you didn't have to worry about that conflict.

00:10:12   And I feel like Apple is on the Windows control key for the OS side of the equation with its

00:10:17   its lightning ports, basically making it a little bit extra bit of a pain in the butt.

00:10:22   You know, now they have a problem to solve, whereas these devices that are just USB-C

00:10:27   from top to bottom won't have that problem to solve.

00:10:30   Their only problem will be like, "How many of these USB-C ports do we put on our cool

00:10:33   new laptop replacement tablet thing?"

00:10:36   I forget if the Surface has USB-C ports on it, but anyway, if they wanted to it seems

00:10:41   like a thing they could do much more easily than Apple.

00:10:43   And it's one of those problems where it's like, "Well, couldn't Windows have changed

00:10:46   but they added the Windows key, they could have changed their modifier, but it's just

00:10:49   it has so much inertia and it would annoy so many people that Windows continues to lurch

00:10:53   along with the control key being the modifier for everything.

00:10:56   Well don't worry, Windows will never have any kind of Unix support.

00:10:59   Yeah, did you see that Ubuntu thing?

00:11:02   I don't know.

00:11:05   I don't think, I mean, that's, Unix is never going to change, you're not going to take

00:11:08   the control key away from them.

00:11:10   In the grand scheme of things, it's a small issue, but it's one of those things that makes

00:11:13   me happy about my combination of Mac and Unix every time I deal with it. And looking at

00:11:17   the iPad and that lightning port and the USB-C port shape, it makes me furrow my brow a bit.

00:11:24   [Laughter]

00:11:25   So, I mean, this is not on our topic list, which is why I'm going to derail us into

00:11:29   talking about it. Why do you think they haven't put a USB port on an iPad so far, and what

00:11:36   do you think they could do with it? I mean, I think the former is easy to explain. Like,

00:11:40   Why they haven't done it so far,

00:11:41   I think the big things are that it seemed like the past,

00:11:44   they wanted to move forward from that,

00:11:46   and didn't want to build in support for all these devices

00:11:48   and deal with all the technical

00:11:50   and software complexity of that.

00:11:51   And also, they kind of like things to be all enclosed.

00:11:55   For instance, one of the things that you would want

00:11:59   a USB port for would be additional storage,

00:12:01   and they don't want you to do that,

00:12:03   they want you to buy it from them.

00:12:05   So I think there's lots of reasons

00:12:06   why they haven't done it before.

00:12:08   What do you think could motivate them

00:12:10   to add USB-like ports for kind of general use

00:12:15   on the iPad Pro?

00:12:17   - I've seen people use the little camera connection kit

00:12:22   that has a USB port on it,

00:12:24   and the only time I think I've ever seen it

00:12:26   was you doing live broadcasts

00:12:29   when we're in San Francisco for WWDC.

00:12:33   I know that Jason Snell has played around with it,

00:12:36   as have others,

00:12:37   But I cannot think of anyone other than you, Marco,

00:12:41   that I've ever seen use the USB to Lightning

00:12:44   or in the past USB to dock connectors.

00:12:47   So I just don't feel like there's much of a market for it.

00:12:50   Like I can't think of anything

00:12:52   that I would wanna plug into my iPad

00:12:55   other than maybe the memory card from my camera

00:12:57   or the camera itself, hence the connection,

00:13:00   the dongle being called the camera connector.

00:13:03   I just, I don't see why one would want this.

00:13:06   - Well, it's a kind of, as with all these things,

00:13:08   it's in a race with the,

00:13:09   we talked about this many shows ago,

00:13:11   it's in a race with the wireless technologies, right?

00:13:13   So there's lots of wireless standards out there

00:13:17   for everything from wireless display, to wireless power,

00:13:21   to all, you know, obviously we have wireless networking

00:13:23   and that has become pervasive.

00:13:25   So it really kind of is a race between the eventual need

00:13:31   to do some of the things that USB does

00:13:33   on tablet type devices and how long it takes

00:13:38   for all those wireless standards to become,

00:13:40   to reach their wifi moment where they finally become

00:13:43   good enough for general use and they just spread everywhere

00:13:45   because no one loves wires.

00:13:47   Like if you could have--

00:13:48   - I love wires.

00:13:49   - Wireless display and wireless storage and wireless power.

00:13:53   So you just come up to your desk with your laptop

00:13:55   and put it down and your big screen in front of you

00:13:56   turns on, like of course who wouldn't want that, right?

00:13:58   I mean, especially with things like monitors

00:14:00   that you plug into the wall.

00:14:01   It's not like you have to recharge the batteries

00:14:03   your monitor. The monitor would still be plugged in, you just didn't have to deal with it.

00:14:06   Anyway, we're not there yet obviously with those. But so, setting that aside, the fact

00:14:09   that that could swamp all of this. The reason you eventually want something like USB on

00:14:14   the big iPad or whatever is, I mean it's the same reason they added a stylus, right? Or

00:14:18   they made the big version. They're extending the capabilities of the device, you know,

00:14:23   or multitasking with a split screen. They want people to be able to do things with these

00:14:27   devices that they couldn't do with the simpler ones. And it's because they're becoming more

00:14:32   powerful they're becoming you know that there was someone posted recently I

00:14:36   think it was a Jeff I would tweet something about like look at all of the

00:14:40   CPUs that have ever been in I think it was Microsoft surface or I forget what

00:14:45   it was some other you know slim sort of people something that people accept as a

00:14:50   laptop replacement look at how many of them are slower than the iPad Pro right

00:14:54   if if the top end of technology in terms of computing power is not growing

00:15:01   as fast as it used to, and we'll talk about Intel's

00:15:05   TikTok stuff later in the show.

00:15:07   Eventually, these things that are historically lesser

00:15:12   devices, laptops, and eventually tablets,

00:15:14   and eventually supposedly phones,

00:15:16   will slowly creep up and start closing the gap.

00:15:20   And you will be left with a situation where a big iPad Pro

00:15:23   can have all the power, I mean,

00:15:24   they just don't update the Mac Pro anymore.

00:15:26   Eventually a big iPad Pro will have all the power

00:15:28   of the current Mac Pro,

00:15:29   because I'll never frickin' update the machine again.

00:15:32   And if you have a small, you know, it's again,

00:15:35   if the price and size of compute starts dropping to zero,

00:15:39   then you will want to have a little thing like that

00:15:41   that you carry around with you in your bag

00:15:42   that you chuck on your desk and that when you do so,

00:15:46   you can connect to all the peripherals that you'd want

00:15:48   in a big desk environment.

00:15:49   You could have multiple monitors hooked up,

00:15:50   you can have larger storage,

00:15:51   you could have wired networking for faster transfers,

00:15:55   you could have all sorts of other peripherals.

00:15:57   And the question is, do you need to plug them in

00:15:58   or are they all wireless?

00:15:59   So at this point, with today's technology,

00:16:01   a lot of them you need to plug in.

00:16:03   So that's why I'm saying like a Thunderbolt 3 port,

00:16:04   like we keep saying USB, but you know,

00:16:06   you'd hook it up and you'd have two external monitors.

00:16:09   Maybe you hook it up and you have a big giant touchscreen

00:16:12   that's like 27 inches, that's, you know,

00:16:14   like laid out on your table instead of being in front of you

00:16:16   or whatever, so you could do more complicated stuff.

00:16:18   And it's like, why wouldn't I have a desktop computer

00:16:20   to that?

00:16:21   How can an iPad drive something,

00:16:22   drive peripherals that powerful?

00:16:24   Eventually it will be able to.

00:16:27   again, especially if the top end continues to grow more slowly than the bottom end.

00:16:32   So I feel like the functionality currently enabled by a Thunderbolt port or a USB 3 port

00:16:39   inevitably will come to tablet-class devices, assuming tablet-class devices still exist

00:16:44   if not like VR devices or whatever.

00:16:45   The only question is when that comes to pass, will we need to use a USB connector to do

00:16:50   it or will it all be wireless or will there be some other standard?

00:16:53   So here's an interesting thought experiment.

00:16:57   We've had wireless things in general, wireless protocols, wireless networking, wireless device

00:17:02   interconnection standards, things like Bluetooth, Wi-Fi. We've had these things now for a

00:17:07   long time in technology terms, over ten years where we've had these things. Not only have

00:17:12   they been possible, but they've been ubiquitous for over ten years and very widely supported

00:17:18   and really quite mature for what they are. And yet, if you look at the devices we use,

00:17:25   with the exception of things that are fully integrated like iPads, but you know if you

00:17:28   look at like a laptop or a desktop computer, things that do connect to other peripherals

00:17:33   or other pieces of hardware like monitors and stuff, almost all of that is still using

00:17:37   wires that was using wires 10 years ago. Like it seems like as the wireless things have

00:17:44   gotten better, so have the wired versions of the various connection protocols and everything,

00:17:50   and everyone's still using wires for lots of good reasons. Like I love wires because

00:17:54   they simply work better most of the time. They're usually more reliable, they're

00:17:59   often faster. They can go in places where wireless kind of can't like high interference

00:18:03   environments or certain restricted areas like planes or you know and so on, they need a

00:18:08   bunch of wireless stuff. They have advantages in things like power delivery and battery

00:18:11   usage and everything else. So wires are kind of, I think they're here to stay. Like everyone

00:18:17   always assumes that in the future everything will be wireless. As you said, interfacing

00:18:23   with your monitor, interfacing with the stuff on your desk.

00:18:26   But maybe that's not true,

00:18:27   maybe that's not a safe assumption.

00:18:29   Because I think we've had long enough now

00:18:31   with wireless interconnection things

00:18:33   that have been possible,

00:18:35   and yet we're still using wires for all these things

00:18:37   because they just work better.

00:18:38   - Yeah, but no one uses wires for networking anymore.

00:18:40   They take the ethernet ports right off the devices.

00:18:42   Like as soon as WiFi was good enough,

00:18:44   not good, because we always know it's flaky, it's slower,

00:18:46   like we all know the limitations of WiFi.

00:18:48   You get interference from your microwave oven

00:18:49   and you have interference from your portable phones

00:18:51   your thing and you can't get on the network and you know you keep dropping

00:18:54   like Wi-Fi has problems but as soon as it got good enough people like well

00:18:58   screw these things because no one wants to walk from place to place or run wires

00:19:02   through their house or plug things in or whatever I do all those things but some

00:19:06   things it's just not possible like you know having having the you know wireless

00:19:11   display technology so you don't you know all the sorts of all those sort of

00:19:14   laptop docks that you see in offices and the many different incarnations they

00:19:18   come in and then no I don't want a dock I just want one cable to plug in or

00:19:21   whatever it is it's not that bad to plug something in but if you told those

00:19:25   people in the same way that we told them hey every time you sit down your desk

00:19:28   you won't have to plug the ethernet cable in and out anymore it doesn't seem

00:19:30   like a big deal like who cares I plug in one cable it's fine it's really

00:19:33   convenient it's you know it works every time it's not a big deal but Wi-Fi just

00:19:38   wiped all that stuff off of the face of the earth there is no equivalent to Wi-Fi

00:19:41   I would say Bluetooth isn't even the equivalent to Wi-Fi because I think

00:19:44   Bluetooth is still not past the level of non-flakiness for anything except for devices that never

00:19:49   move. You know, keyboards and mice, I think people more or less accept Bluetooth, but

00:19:53   then there's the annoyance of the battery charging that wasn't there with wires, so

00:19:56   it has a downside. So I feel like Bluetooth is borderline, but no other wireless technology

00:20:00   for anything else like storage or monitors or anything like that is, you know, is remotely

00:20:07   up to the net win that Wi-Fi was. But it doesn't mean that they never will be. You know, you

00:20:14   just read any sci-fi book like technologically speaking there's no

00:20:17   reason you couldn't have really sophisticated high-speed ubiquitous

00:20:21   short-range high bandwidth Wi-Fi even the power delivery stuff so you're saying

00:20:25   on a very long time scale that long I mean do you know people who use wireless

00:20:31   charging for their phones it does that really exist I mean like yeah like those

00:20:35   stupid little pads yeah yeah I mean obviously you can buy them for Apple

00:20:39   devices too but most people who use them would imagine using for some kind of

00:20:42   Android device that is not a third party thing but it comes with the thing.

00:20:46   But I know people who choose to do that.

00:20:49   No one's forcing them to use that.

00:20:50   They find it convenient that when they come home they put all their devices on a big pad

00:20:54   or they put it in a little cradle.

00:20:56   And it's like, well if you're putting it in a cradle, if there was a little plug at the

00:20:58   bottom of the cradle, would it make a big difference if you plug it in?

00:21:02   They're choosing and these are not always the biggest technology.

00:21:05   It's just more convenient when I don't have to deal with the plug.

00:21:07   I just put it on this thing and it charges.

00:21:09   It's not great, it's slower, it's not good enough for everybody yet.

00:21:11   But the fact that anybody chooses to do it in its current sad unsupported state shows

00:21:16   that there is a desire for it.

00:21:17   So I feel like the convenience hooks of all those wireless things are impossible to resist

00:21:24   as soon as they pass the minimum sort of reliability threshold.

00:21:30   And Wi-Fi is the best example, and I think the only one that has passed it in Bluetooth

00:21:33   is on the border.

00:21:35   Everything else, it's like, "All right, well, keep revising the protocols, and a few early

00:21:39   your doctors will try it and then you know revise revise revise we'll know

00:21:42   when it crosses the threshold because Apple will have it all over the place

00:21:45   because Apple doesn't want any ports on any of his devices they don't even want

00:21:47   rotation lock switch for crying out loud that still drives me nuts there was no

00:21:51   room on the side of the device it couldn't be a millimeter bigger sorry

00:21:54   Casey we had that empty space for the four speakers they need every millimeter

00:21:58   of that empty space it's impossible to make the device different they should

00:22:01   just have a mute switch bump I mean if they'll have a camera bump to accommodate

00:22:04   that wide component they should have a mute switch bump on the other side that

00:22:07   Then it could be even.

00:22:08   The mute switch is a bump.

00:22:10   That's what makes it a switch.

00:22:11   It sticks out and you can slide it back and forth.

00:22:13   They'll make it a touch ID button.

00:22:14   You don't have to use your fingerprint to mute.

00:22:16   And it won't work if your hand's wet.

00:22:18   Yeah.

00:22:19   You know the wet hand trick though, right?

00:22:22   What?

00:22:23   No.

00:22:24   So the problem with touch ID sensors that people found as soon as they introduced is

00:22:28   they work fine, but then you go do the dishes and then you try to unlock your phone and

00:22:31   it doesn't work and you're annoyed.

00:22:33   And eventually your hand's dry and it works again.

00:22:35   All you gotta do is wet your hands a lot and then train it on your wet finger.

00:22:39   You can label it as, you know, wet right thumb.

00:22:42   And then you will train it on your dry right thumb and you'll train it on your wet right

00:22:46   thumb and both will work.

00:22:49   Life hack.

00:22:50   Well that was always my, so there was that court case or whatever where somebody at some

00:22:54   point ruled that the police can't ask you for your passcode but they can force you to

00:23:01   use your fingerprint to unlock your phone.

00:23:03   So my contingency plan, in case I ever get questioned by the police and they force me

00:23:07   to access my phone, would be to lick my finger for a second and then make Touch ID fail three

00:23:13   times, so then it would require the passcode and then I wouldn't have to let them in.

00:23:17   Just bring Casey with you and he'll spill water on your phone and they'll never be able

00:23:20   to do that.

00:23:21   You gotta do that before the waterproof iPhone 7 comes out.

00:23:23   Yeah, I think honestly it's already too late, because the 6S is already almost waterproof,

00:23:28   right?

00:23:29   Isn't it like fairly waterproof?

00:23:30   I think it's only waterproof on YouTube.

00:23:33   In the magic realm of YouTube, you can put it in a glass of water and it's fine if you

00:23:36   do it at home and it instantly dies.

00:23:38   I don't even know where to go from here.

00:23:39   Are we in follow-up?

00:23:40   Are we like three topics deep?

00:23:41   I don't even know what's happened to this show.

00:23:43   We've got one item of follow-up left.

00:23:44   Oh, God.

00:23:45   When you're in charge, Marco, everything takes a turn.

00:23:47   He's never in charge.

00:23:48   No, this is a life lesson.

00:23:50   Exactly.

00:23:51   I'm not in charge.

00:23:52   I just kind of took charge because that's how life works.

00:23:54   You need an agent of chaos, as they say.

00:23:56   Yeah, something like that.

00:23:58   No one ever grants you authority.

00:23:59   You have to take it.

00:24:00   - All right, well I'm taking authority in saying

00:24:01   let's get through this one damn last piece of follow-ups

00:24:04   so we can get into the real topics.

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00:26:20   - All right, Jon, your crowning moment has come.

00:26:23   Tell us about what's going on with your TV.

00:26:26   - Has it come?

00:26:27   So more than a year ago, because we revisited on the one year anniversary, more than a year

00:26:32   ago I banished my PlayStation 4 from my beautiful plasma television because mostly what I was

00:26:37   doing with my PlayStation 4 was playing Destiny, and Destiny had a heads-up display that's

00:26:41   on screen the entire time you're playing that is 100% opacity and doesn't move and doesn't

00:26:47   change that much, and it was burning in on my display.

00:26:50   And I revisited a year later to see if the retention had faded, and it had faded to be

00:26:54   almost entirely invisible to be replaced with the Cartoon Network logo which was also banished

00:26:59   from my television. Anyway, so when I banished my PS4, I got a gaming monitor, I brought

00:27:05   it into another room, and that's how I've been playing Destiny, still the main thing

00:27:09   I do with my PS4 since then, for more than a year now. Of course, when I pulled my PS4

00:27:14   from the TV, Destiny was new to me, it wasn't new, I got it around the time of the first

00:27:18   expansion first yeah I think the first expansion a little bit after and I you

00:27:24   know complained on the the bungee farms the bungees the maker of the game and I

00:27:27   say you know it would be nice if you had an option to make the HUD translucent

00:27:32   and or dim it or you know do some other thing that would help with burning and

00:27:35   there's a it was a big thread in their forms mostly consisted of people who

00:27:40   don't own plasma televisions telling everyone who does that they shouldn't

00:27:44   anymore because they're bad and that's why they should get LED televisions.

00:27:49   Helpful internet people.

00:27:50   It's just a bunch of kids.

00:27:52   They don't understand why anyone would want a plasma television.

00:27:54   The only thing they care about is like, "My LCD television," or they always call them

00:27:58   "LED television," is great.

00:27:59   And they get into fights with each other and it's like, "Kids, kids, calm down.

00:28:03   Stop fighting over what TV you have.

00:28:04   We need to concentrate on Bungie and say Bungie.

00:28:06   This seems like an easy feature for you to add.

00:28:09   Translucency seems like it's within your grasp, graphically speaking, on the PlayStation

00:28:13   or to make the HUD translucent or make it smaller or, you know, many games do this.

00:28:18   They give you options to tweak your HUD, not necessarily for Burn-In reasons, just for

00:28:23   customization reasons, but yeah, it helps with Burn-In as well.

00:28:26   Well, you know, there is a second option here that they could have done, you know, just

00:28:31   never let you stop playing Destiny.

00:28:33   Because then it doesn't matter if it's burned into your TV.

00:28:35   It's always showing anyway if you just always play Destiny.

00:28:37   If you never use your TV for anything else...

00:28:39   It still matters.

00:28:40   You would think it wouldn't matter, but it does.

00:28:42   And anyway, you got to stop sometime and destiny is not the only thing I did in my television anyway

00:28:46   So the gaming monitor I got is obviously

00:28:49   Does not look as good as my television and the black levels are atrocious

00:28:53   The response time is better

00:28:56   But anyway, so that's how I've been playing destiny for a year and the big thread in the bungee forums

00:29:00   Bungee like has not really said anything official about the topic of like other than acknowledging we have heard you about this request

00:29:09   And you know that they haven't said they didn't promise it very very Apple like in terms of

00:29:14   Vague acknowledgement that the issue has been received, but no promises that it will ever be addressed let alone. What time so

00:29:21   Imagine my surprise when here I am more than a year later

00:29:24   Bungie was previewing some of the content they're gonna have in the April update to destiny and

00:29:28   one of the first things they showed was the ability to

00:29:31   Turn off the HUD that was mostly the feature they were touting because people who you know do

00:29:37   Movies within the game or take screenshots, you know, you don't want to have the HUD there sort of, you know

00:29:42   Making it less cinematic and making it look more like a game

00:29:44   So you can drop the HUD for like nicer screenshots and movies and stuff

00:29:47   But there was also two other options of you know, full opacity high and low

00:29:52   Maybe there was a medium level didn't really get to see what those look like in the game

00:29:56   But they were there settings wise so there will be options to turn down the HUD

00:30:00   I don't know if the low setting is low enough to prevent image retention, but that's not my problem

00:30:06   My first problem is that I spent a year playing Destiny connected to a gaming monitor and I'm kind of used to it in terms of

00:30:13   If I was to go back on the television

00:30:15   I would feel like I'm really far away from the screen even though you know

00:30:18   You can do the math that my television screen is much bigger

00:30:21   But the distance wise I wouldn't be able to see as much detail

00:30:24   I'm used to being closer to the screen close enough to like see the pixels because it's not a retina display

00:30:29   It's just you know a 1080 HD display just like my television

00:30:33   but I'm sitting like two feet from it instead of eight feet away.

00:30:37   And the other thing is when I mentioned potentially bringing the PlayStation 4 back in, my wife

00:30:42   said that she was not for this idea, because that would just lead to more fighting between

00:30:46   my son who wants to play Star Wars Battlefront and my daughter who wants to watch television

00:30:50   shows.

00:30:51   So it's better when they can be in separate rooms, each doing the thing they want to do

00:30:54   without fighting over the big TV.

00:30:56   So it seems to me that despite my dreams coming true here, potentially the dimming might not

00:31:02   be sufficient to prevent Vernon and the other thing is, and the other two issues are I'm

00:31:06   kind of used to it sitting two feet from my monitor, I'm kind of used to playing that

00:31:10   way at this point, and for the harmony of the family it may be better to keep my PlayStation

00:31:17   4 in here.

00:31:18   Now if they come up with a PlayStation 4.5 as the rumors are that a slightly more powerful

00:31:22   PlayStation 4 with that more power potentially being helpful to the PlayStation VR which

00:31:26   which I may eventually buy. I would buy a PlayStation 4.5 and connect it to the TV so

00:31:32   we have two PlayStations and my son and I could play Destiny at the same time finally,

00:31:36   and my wife would probably like that even less, but I would kind of have a quote-unquote

00:31:39   excuse. Well, it's not, I'm not just getting a second PlayStation, this is the better PlayStation,

00:31:43   and where else am I going to put it? If we don't have room for another gaming monitor,

00:31:46   it's got to be connected to the TV. So this is a complicated situation.

00:31:49   By the way, as somebody who bought a PS4 only a few months ago, that really annoys me, that

00:31:53   rumor.

00:31:54   Well it's only rumor now and the extra power probably wouldn't be a big deal because it

00:32:00   would probably just be for VR, which you'll probably buy anyway, honest. Aren't you going

00:32:04   to buy PlayStation VR? Tiff will make you buy it.

00:32:06   I would like to see it. I mean, I'm not sure I will buy it, but I think it's at least somewhat

00:32:10   likely, just because I don't plan to build a giant gaming PC to try out the Oculus. So

00:32:17   this is kind of like the alternative to that for more casual people like me. So I think

00:32:22   that's... I would like to see it.

00:32:24   Yeah, it's cheap enough that you're like, "You know what? Fine. I'm gonna give it a try.

00:32:27   This is giving it an honest shot." You know you're not gonna be like, "Oh, it would be better if I had a better PlayStation."

00:32:32   No, it'll be, you know, it'll be what it is.

00:32:34   The experience will be consistent and you can try it out and find out if it's terrible or not.

00:32:38   So that's that's been my plan as well.

00:32:40   But I would like a PlayStation 4.5. Anyway, the April update looks interesting. One-to-one infusion.

00:32:46   I knew I shouldn't have used that Harrowed Anglership Drifstan that I had, 320 drop.

00:32:51   that was just saving and saving it like just yesterday I was like you know what I

00:32:54   Should just infuse that into my 309 mighta. Why the hell not I know I'm gonna lose a lot of points

00:33:00   But pretty soon 330 335 stuff is gonna be dropping anyways. There's no point in saving the 320. Thank God

00:33:05   I saved it one to one infusion coming in April this ends the gibberish portion of the episode yeah Casey is John

00:33:11   Okay, I don't know you think should we call somebody a hand on heart. I'm not trying to be funny

00:33:16   I really thought that I had just spaced out and the conversation went a totally different direction

00:33:20   I was trying feverishly to catch up and figure out what the crap John was just saying and then oh, oh, he's just talking destiny again

00:33:27   Never mind

00:33:29   Next next we'll have Marco tell us about a watch terminology. I

00:33:33   Can't even I can't even all right. So is that are we good with follow-up any other follow-up gentlemen? We're all done

00:33:39   Excellent. All right, so I don't recall exactly when this happened

00:33:43   I think it was a little over a week ago

00:33:45   But last episode we were busy talking about the Apple events

00:33:47   again, didn't get a chance to talk about it.

00:33:50   Some things happened in the Node.js world last week, some

00:33:53   interesting things.

00:33:55   We have a link in the show notes to hainicodes.net, which

00:34:00   is sharing my experiences as a programmer in C#.net and

00:34:02   engineering manager.

00:34:04   And this person, whose name I don't know other than Haney,

00:34:08   anyway, they wrote a very quick article about-- or a

00:34:12   reasonably quick article-- about what happened on NPM.

00:34:15   And I'm going to take a stab as the summarizer in chief, and you guys can interrupt when

00:34:19   you're ready.

00:34:21   There was a person who had put up a package called "Kik," K-I-K, and the, what is it,

00:34:28   a chat app or something like that?

00:34:30   The people who run that got in touch with him and were upset that he had a package that,

00:34:35   I don't think in any way related to "Kik" the app, had a package that just had the same

00:34:40   name.

00:34:41   And so they told him he should take it down.

00:34:44   He said, no.

00:34:45   And then I guess they went to NPM, which is the package manager, node package manager

00:34:49   that you use with node, and they got NPM to take it down.

00:34:55   And he then, this gentleman, decided to rage quit NPM and remove all of his packages.

00:35:02   So far this is a kind of amusing but unremarkable story, except that one of the packages that

00:35:09   he removed was a package that was called left pad was it was like a 12 line string function

00:35:16   yes you are right it is called left pad it is a 12 line or 11 line function that just pads a string

00:35:22   on the left hand side and apparently a lot of very popular packages took this as a dependency so in

00:35:31   other words you know when you're writing code in in the modern times you usually have a package

00:35:36   package manager, something like CocoaPods or NuGet or NPM,

00:35:40   or what does Perl use, something ancient?

00:35:42   - Something ancient?

00:35:44   - Yeah, everything in Perl's ancient.

00:35:45   - Something with actual tests that run against the code

00:35:48   so you can tell it'll actually work.

00:35:49   (laughing)

00:35:51   - I couldn't resist, but that's CPAN, right,

00:35:53   or something like that?

00:35:54   - You got it.

00:35:54   - Okay, so most modern development platforms and Perl

00:35:59   have a package manager, and NPM is the one for this,

00:36:03   and when you have this package manager,

00:36:04   very easy to import somebody else's code. So apparently what all of these packages did,

00:36:08   including some very, very, very popular ones, was they imported this left pad package, and this

00:36:15   entire package was 11 lines of code. Well, when this package disappeared, that meant that anyone

00:36:19   who had already downloaded it was okay. But if you tried to, say, code on a new machine, or in

00:36:25   many cases redeploy, then this package was gone, and all of a sudden everything broke. And because

00:36:31   so many popular packages took this as a subdependency, if you will, like half of the Node ecosystem broke.

00:36:38   And this was really chapping a lot of people's butts, because a lot of the really smug developers,

00:36:47   most of them, pretty much all of whom were right, said, "Why would you take an 11-line dependency?

00:36:51   Why not just write those 11 lines yourself, or just put them somewhere in your project,

00:36:57   somewhere under your control?"

00:36:58   And there was a big kerfuffle about it.

00:37:00   And as someone who has written a Node app, which is my blog,

00:37:06   and I just recently re-ran Clock, which is Count Lines of

00:37:11   Code, on my blog, and I put up a short blog post about it,

00:37:14   which I'll put in the show notes, the entirety of my blog

00:37:17   engine, in terms of the things that I have written, is 850

00:37:21   lines of code.

00:37:22   Then I did a Count Lines of Code on my Node Packages

00:37:24   or node modules folder, and that was 180,000 lines of code.

00:37:29   (laughing)

00:37:30   So I'm not really one to throw stones on this issue,

00:37:33   but nevertheless, I don't think it's really useful

00:37:38   to poop all over package managers

00:37:42   and the idea of taking dependencies just carte blanche,

00:37:45   it's a bad idea.

00:37:46   I don't think that's necessarily true.

00:37:48   I do think, however, that taking an 11 line dependency

00:37:50   is a bit ridiculous.

00:37:52   So Marco, as chief curmudgeon when it comes to these sorts of things, what are your thoughts?

00:37:58   First of all, I think John might be even more curmudgeonly than me on this, but I'm at least

00:38:02   better known for avoiding dependencies like this. And the reason why I avoid dependencies

00:38:08   as much as I can is not because I've always been like this. It's because of experiences

00:38:14   that I had, mostly during the early days of Tumblr. Lots of things that we used in the

00:38:19   the early days broke. Lots of third party components, lots of application layer stuff,

00:38:25   you know infrastructure components that were not very widely used or were very young or

00:38:30   were not designed to be used at big scales. But most of the problems we had were third

00:38:36   party PHP modules, you know third party PHP code written by other people that we imported

00:38:41   so we wouldn't have to write our own functions for things like S3 or imagery sizing and stuff

00:38:45   like that. We had so many problems with this code, especially the freaking Zend framework.

00:38:52   I don't know if it's good now, but it sure wasn't then. We had so many problems with

00:38:57   almost every third party library that we used that we eventually just said, "You know what,

00:39:03   we're just going to not use any anymore." Because every time we would use one, literally,

00:39:09   not just sometimes, literally the majority of the time, six months later we would be

00:39:14   ripping it out and replacing it with either

00:39:16   another third party one that would break

00:39:18   six months after that, or finally we'd write our own

00:39:20   because they just were of low quality

00:39:23   and were not designed for a high needs environment

00:39:26   or not designed for edge cases or whatever else.

00:39:29   Because a lot of third party code out there,

00:39:32   there's this myth that open source stuff

00:39:35   will be really well tested and will kind of be

00:39:37   like battle hardened and you can rely on it

00:39:40   more than stuff you write yourself.

00:39:42   But that's only true sometimes,

00:39:43   It's only true for some things.

00:39:45   And that's, how true that is,

00:39:47   is kind of a function of how popular that code is.

00:39:50   So if you're using something that is in use by everybody,

00:39:54   from Facebook down to Casey's blog engine,

00:39:57   chances are that's been well tested

00:39:59   and that the bugs have been found

00:40:00   and the edge cases have been hit

00:40:01   and you're not gonna be the biggest person using it

00:40:03   and you're not gonna hit many problems.

00:40:05   But when you're just pulling in third party code

00:40:08   from a lot of things,

00:40:09   it's often hard to tell whether what you're pulling in

00:40:12   is of that level of quality or not.

00:40:14   And when you're in a young language

00:40:17   or a module for doing something

00:40:19   that most people don't need to do,

00:40:20   kind of like a niche module,

00:40:22   I don't know how to pronounce niche by the way,

00:40:23   I don't, it's niche, niche, forget it.

00:40:26   But every time I say that, I worry about that.

00:40:30   - I'm the same way, I'm right there with you.

00:40:31   - Good, okay, so we'll just agree

00:40:33   that we're pronouncing it badly.

00:40:35   Anyway, so the fewer people use the thing you're working on

00:40:40   and the fewer big people use it,

00:40:41   the less reliable it inherently is simply by being

00:40:45   open source or a third party or whatever.

00:40:47   So I just learned over time that I was better off

00:40:51   writing stuff myself and avoiding dependencies.

00:40:54   Even when they work well, they can cause issues.

00:40:57   Like when the version of something changes

00:40:58   and it breaks other things.

00:41:00   Package managers can solve problems like that

00:41:03   most of the time, but I've never seen a single one

00:41:05   that solved them all of the time in anything.

00:41:08   Linux, languages, any, I mean, like,

00:41:10   when you add dependencies like this willy-nilly,

00:41:13   you're really just adding work and risk.

00:41:16   And the idea that you won't be able to deploy your site

00:41:21   onto new servers because the original host

00:41:24   of this 11 line function took it down, that's crazy.

00:41:29   There are so many problems with that

00:41:30   that sound just crazy to me.

00:41:32   Why are you not in control of that?

00:41:34   I don't know.

00:41:35   As somebody who has run large scale services before,

00:41:38   Every dependency like that just to me is a huge liability.

00:41:42   And occasionally it is worth using third party code,

00:41:45   but I think it's a lot less often

00:41:48   than what people seem to be doing these days.

00:41:51   - Well, everybody builds on top of something.

00:41:53   I mean, it's not like you're saying,

00:41:54   well, I was using the compiler that came with my system,

00:41:56   but eventually I learned I had to write my own compiler.

00:41:58   You know, I was using the OS to ship with my servers,

00:42:01   but eventually I learned that it's wasteful

00:42:02   to try to rely on Linux,

00:42:04   'cause you never know what the hell they're gonna do

00:42:05   and they can break your crap,

00:42:06   so it's better to write your own OS.

00:42:07   Like we all go on top of something.

00:42:09   It's all just a question of where you draw that line and why.

00:42:11   So there's sort of, for most of our lives,

00:42:13   been the idea that like, you're not gonna write

00:42:16   your own OS and your own compiler,

00:42:18   and maybe you're not even gonna write your own web server,

00:42:20   but if you're writing web applications at a certain point

00:42:23   around the web server code boundary,

00:42:24   then it's like now it's kind of more up for grabs.

00:42:26   Do you use an application framework?

00:42:28   Or do you write your own framework?

00:42:30   It was the type of thing where you can

00:42:32   write your own web app framework.

00:42:33   Like it's not, you know, that's how all the ones

00:42:35   that we have got here.

00:42:35   Like it doesn't take a 700 man team to do it.

00:42:38   One person can do it.

00:42:39   - Yep, I did.

00:42:40   - If you use one of the popular third party ones, chances,

00:42:45   and you happen to be in a Marco's unfortunate/fortunate

00:42:48   situation of you end up being, maybe perhaps unexpectedly,

00:42:53   one of the biggest users of everything that you do

00:42:55   because you are tremendous all of a sudden,

00:42:57   the compounding growth or whatever.

00:42:59   - And let me point out too, Tumblr was not that tremendous

00:43:03   when we started hitting these problems.

00:43:04   we probably had maybe 100,000 users

00:43:07   when all this stuff started breaking.

00:43:08   It wasn't that big of a service.

00:43:09   Like relative to what you consider

00:43:11   like a scaled or scalable web service, it was nothing.

00:43:14   - Well, I mean, sometimes when people start going to,

00:43:18   Facebook is a great example.

00:43:19   They were using a similar technology stack

00:43:22   and their solution was throw people and money

00:43:25   at the problem to the point where they were compiling

00:43:27   PHP into C++ and crazy stuff like that.

00:43:29   That's another possible approach, you know?

00:43:32   I don't know if they decided to write everything

00:43:34   themselves, they got down and said, "We're going to rewrite the language ourselves,"

00:43:37   and what is that, hip-hop their replacement thing or whatever?

00:43:40   But those are, those I feel like are extremes. I think for the most part, most companies

00:43:45   that are doing web development, I don't know if I'm going to say for the most part, maybe

00:43:50   it's 50/50, are using in-house web frameworks. In the modern era though, there are so many

00:43:55   popular web frameworks that work for so many needs that it's accepted that you're going

00:44:00   to build on top of them. I think where there are two places where this silly JavaScript

00:44:04   only three places that silly JavaScript stuff fell down.

00:44:07   One is an area that I'm familiar with,

00:44:10   because JavaScript is a crap language that

00:44:13   is missing really important things that people want, right?

00:44:16   And Perl started out as a crap language that

00:44:19   was missing many important things that people wanted.

00:44:21   And still, today is missing some things that people wanted.

00:44:24   Which means that to sort of round out your language-- Ruby

00:44:28   has a little bit of degree too, because they consider it

00:44:30   an asset-- to sort of round out your language

00:44:32   habitable, you know, to make it comfortable, there's a minimum amount of

00:44:37   sort of furniture you need to buy for the house before you can move in and

00:44:39   it's not part of the language. It's, you know, done in libraries, right? So

00:44:44   JavaScript is definitely in that situation which is why there's all these

00:44:47   things that like, you know, CoffeeScript and TypeScript and other things that are

00:44:51   like try to make JavaScript feel nicer. Those aren't libraries but the same idea

00:44:54   that that no one wants to just use JavaScript by itself because even basic

00:44:58   things like, say, left padding a string, are not in the language or the standard library,

00:45:03   where standard library is defined as what you can run in a browser, right? So someone's

00:45:07   got to write the stupid 11-line function, right?

00:45:09   Not in PHP, they don't.

00:45:10   Or, you know, I know, like the isArray packages are talking about, like the common test that

00:45:14   people want to do that's not in the language, that it's easy to write, but it's also easy

00:45:17   to get wrong, and it's just kind of like a basic thing, right?

00:45:20   Yeah, you don't have to do that in PHP either.

00:45:22   Yeah, JavaScript, nor Perl, by the way. JavaScript is in that position, and so that's why these

00:45:27   things exist. The second problem is the JavaScript community not sort of having

00:45:33   their act together enough to realize, "All right, so we have this language that has

00:45:36   these gaps." The best way to fill them is not with 10 billion individual

00:45:41   dependencies, each of which does one of those functions. Like, as a community, they

00:45:44   should have, you know, sort of come together and settled on some much larger

00:45:50   libraries they're like, "And round out the JavaScript language for me, lib 1.0."

00:45:54   right? And maybe there's seven competing ones of those, but that is much better

00:45:58   than, "I'm gonna do left pad, I'm gonna do sane regular expression matching, you

00:46:02   know, I'm gonna do fake inheritance in the prototype based language," and you

00:46:06   know, like everyone's sort of just doing the little tiny thing and having a

00:46:10   million of those combined. And I think the third failure for all the people who

00:46:14   got hit by this bug is people who grew up in an environment where the

00:46:19   expectation is that you can run your deploy and part of the deployment or

00:46:26   updating a syncing or whatever automated procedure they have that they're all

00:46:30   happy with they're not thinking about the fact that it is connecting to third

00:46:34   party servers to do that right if you're just slightly older if you're like you

00:46:38   know maybe 10 or 20 years older than the people who are running to these problems

00:46:43   you would have grown up in a culture like I did where you know you're

00:46:47   building on top of Perl, there are gaps in Perl that you're going to need to the libraries,

00:46:51   there's web frameworks, maybe you're writing your own, certainly you're building on top

00:46:54   of some real basics like DBI and LWP or whatever the hell, you know, the sort of core foundational

00:46:59   things that most people who use Perl want to do. But if you're in a big important company,

00:47:04   you don't go out to CPAN to get these packages, right? You have your own internal CPAN mirror

00:47:10   at your company, checked into version control, so you know exactly what the hell you're getting,

00:47:14   nothing anybody can do on the internet,

00:47:15   it's gonna change what you deploy.

00:47:17   Like, the only, nothing is gonna break your stuff

00:47:20   based on what's on the internet.

00:47:21   And you maintain that mirror,

00:47:22   and you sync upstream and downstream,

00:47:24   and you control your own destiny.

00:47:27   It's tons of third-party software.

00:47:28   Like a CPAN mirror, especially back in the old days,

00:47:30   was pretty darn big, and it's like,

00:47:31   why do we have to have our own CPAN mirror?

00:47:34   Because you don't wanna rely on stuff on the internet,

00:47:37   right, I mean, for security reasons alone.

00:47:39   Like, so that the idea that pulling something

00:47:41   from a repository would break people's production systems,

00:47:44   those production systems were prebroken,

00:47:46   not by the fact they were,

00:47:47   just by the fact that they were relying on third party code,

00:47:49   not just by the fact that the third party dependencies

00:47:52   were broken down into microscopic individual functions

00:47:54   with ridiculous names,

00:47:56   but because they weren't masters of their own destiny.

00:47:59   No matter what you choose to do in terms of the dependencies

00:48:01   and you can decide based on what Marco was talking about,

00:48:03   you know, is it reliable?

00:48:05   Is it suitable for my purpose?

00:48:06   Am I better off doing it myself?

00:48:07   Is it a core competency?

00:48:08   But like all these sorts of decisions,

00:48:10   Eventually you're gonna do some things

00:48:12   with third-party code, whether it's your OS

00:48:14   or your compiler or whatever,

00:48:15   but especially if it's package management,

00:48:17   you have to have that stuff in-house.

00:48:18   And these days, it is nothing to have a complete mirror

00:48:21   of some public repository in your, you know,

00:48:25   or just the individual packages you want,

00:48:27   check them into your version control.

00:48:28   You don't need the whole freaking repository.

00:48:30   The repository doesn't need to be involved

00:48:32   in your build and deployment process.

00:48:33   Just get the code that you need,

00:48:34   and then that code will never change out from under you.

00:48:36   If it is suitable for your purpose,

00:48:37   it will continue to be suitable

00:48:39   until you decide that it's not.

00:48:40   So anyway, in summary, whippersnappers.

00:48:45   (laughing)

00:48:47   - Wow.

00:48:49   I don't even know where to go from here.

00:48:52   All I will say is that it's interesting

00:48:55   that you bring up deployment

00:48:58   because one of the things that I was thinking about

00:49:00   when this was all going down was that

00:49:04   when I deploy camel to Heroku,

00:49:07   What I'm deploying is just my code, including my list of dependencies.

00:49:13   And just like you said, John, Heroku is then going out to npm and fetching all of these

00:49:19   packages on my behalf.

00:49:20   So this very well could have bitten me if myself or one of the packages I depend on

00:49:28   was dependent on the one that got pulled.

00:49:30   So this is exactly something that I could have run into because of the way I choose

00:49:36   to host my site, and I choose to host it on Heroku for a variety of reasons, but mostly,

00:49:40   like you said about core competencies, I don't have the time, interest, or desire to be a

00:49:45   Linux server admin, and so I choose, for better or worse, to have a platform as a service.

00:49:52   And that's what I like.

00:49:53   And I...

00:49:54   Worse.

00:49:55   Fine.

00:49:56   But that's what I like, and that's what works for me.

00:49:58   That's how I've chosen to do it.

00:49:59   And yes, there are ways around this, even with Heroku, but my point is, even an innocent

00:50:05   bystander like myself. I am potentially guilty of doing the same thing.

00:50:11   That's weird to me that like, you know, it doesn't really matter practically speaking

00:50:15   that you're pulling from the internet as you deploy. I don't understand why that needs

00:50:20   to be a dynamic part of the process. I feel like that should be pulled down, like the

00:50:26   same way you pull something from CocoaPods and now it's part of your application. Every

00:50:29   time you compile it doesn't re-download it from CocoaPods and silently update it to a

00:50:33   to a different version or get it like, or just,

00:50:35   you never actually have it.

00:50:36   And like, I know it's like more dynamic and just like,

00:50:39   oh, we're all this interconnected web

00:50:41   and network connections never go down

00:50:42   and I can trust what's on the other side of the network.

00:50:44   But I don't understand how you can trust it, honestly.

00:50:47   I mean, I don't even, you know,

00:50:49   maybe this is another weird C-PAN thing,

00:50:51   but like what kind of security is there?

00:50:52   If you're dynamically pulling every time you deploy,

00:50:54   you're just trusting, you don't even know what the hell

00:50:57   NPM repositories Heroku is using

00:50:59   and how they might be poisoned with what,

00:51:01   like, I mean, it doesn't matter for a personal site.

00:51:02   This is not a specific issue.

00:51:04   It's just the culture of—it's the same culture that gives you websites that end in

00:51:08   dot io that implore you to run cURL and pipe it through Bash.

00:51:13   You know what I mean?

00:51:14   It's that kind of culture.

00:51:15   It's kind of like a return to the really old days when I was first starting Unix.

00:51:22   Like I've told this story before at BU.

00:51:24   All TTYs were world-readable.

00:51:26   That's how naïve they were.

00:51:27   Like, it was Telnet.

00:51:28   There was no SSH.

00:51:29   Your passwords were flying in plain text every time you telnetted or FTP'd anywhere.

00:51:32   All TTYs were world-rideable.

00:51:33   It was like the free love sixties, right?

00:51:37   And that era came to an end.

00:51:38   But then, you know, fast forward 20 or 30 years and people are pulling from an unknown

00:51:43   website and piping to their shell.

00:51:46   Sometimes they'd have sudo in there.

00:51:47   It would be like someone just put in the chat room.

00:51:49   Sometimes they'd be like, "Seriously?

00:51:50   I'm going to pull from a website and pipe to sudo sh?"

00:51:53   I don't know.

00:51:56   It's a utopian world that has never actually really existed and cannot be recreated by

00:52:03   wishing it were true.

00:52:04   Oh my god.

00:52:07   I didn't realize that websites that end in .io are inherently bad.

00:52:12   This is news to me.

00:52:13   It's the whippersnappers.

00:52:14   It is the whippersnappers.

00:52:16   You've seen the websites I'm talking about, right?

00:52:18   Some cool new technology and they have a website that ends in .io and their installation procedure

00:52:23   wants you to just run a curl command and pipe it into a shell.

00:52:26   They're like, "No thanks.

00:52:28   No thank you.

00:52:29   I will not do that."

00:52:30   I mean, is it really any better when they had shell archives that you download, like

00:52:34   shaar files, and you just run those blindly?

00:52:36   Maybe it wasn't that much better, but I feel like you're crossing a line when the network

00:52:41   is involved and you're just blindly trusting bits going over a wire that you're just allowing

00:52:45   to execute on your machine that you just pulled off a website.

00:52:47   And it's like, is it the same as downloading unknown binaries?

00:52:53   is Turing complete, I understand how it's all equivalent and they're not really that

00:52:55   different and it's like, oh kids these days, right? But there is a difference. There's

00:52:59   a reason we've moved to signed binaries and all sorts of cryptographic things to assure

00:53:04   us that at the very least the application comes from the person we think it comes from

00:53:09   and hasn't been altered. There's a reason that has rolled out on phone platforms and

00:53:13   to a lesser extent desktop platforms and game consoles and everything like that. And the

00:53:17   modern practice of executing arbitrary code pulled from websites in your shell flies in

00:53:24   the face of that progress.

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00:55:43   Just today, the Safari Technology Preview was released, and we'll put the official blog

00:55:48   post in the show notes, but basically the gist is, this is a separate app that you download

00:55:55   via the web, and then is updated, I guess, fortnightly via the Mac App Store, and it's

00:56:01   It's sort of kind of a more stable version of the Safari Nightly, if I understand things

00:56:06   right, except that it has one important ability which I don't believe the Safari Nightly's

00:56:13   have, or the WebKit Nightly's have, which is it can talk to iCloud.

00:56:18   And so if you're like me and rely on Safari and rely on bookmark sync and things like

00:56:22   that, you can use the Safari technology preview.

00:56:25   The reason this is a segue from what we were just talking about, though, is that I tried

00:56:28   this on my work computer.

00:56:29   I haven't put it on my personal one yet, and I immediately went to install the 1Password extension. When I did so, I

00:56:36   attempted to enter a password for whatever it was I was looking at at the time, and the 1Password extension said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:56:43   This isn't signed the way we expect.

00:56:46   Thus, this is dangerous.

00:56:49   Thus, we don't want you to do this." And that comes back to what you were saying a minute ago, John, about

00:56:53   cryptographically signing things, making sure that what you're looking at is what you expect, etc.

00:56:59   I just thought that was interesting and good on 1Password for telling me these things, although

00:57:04   I couldn't figure out a way to override it, which is a little bit of a bummer.

00:57:07   But it still worked really well outside of the 1Password issue.

00:57:13   The technology preview worked well, everything seemed fine to me.

00:57:16   I haven't had the chance to kick the tires too much yet, but so far so good.

00:57:20   I've really liked it.

00:57:21   Have you guys played with this at all?

00:57:23   I only have one question.

00:57:25   Did all of your plugin icons all kind of shift over

00:57:29   to the right side as you were using it,

00:57:31   or did they stay where you put them

00:57:32   on the left side of the address bar?

00:57:34   - Oh, that frickin' address bar,

00:57:35   even in non-preview Safari, even just in regular Safari,

00:57:40   frequently the icons in the toolbar of Safari

00:57:43   decide they don't like where they are

00:57:44   and would like a new home, and then I put them back.

00:57:47   - They all just, they end up just all,

00:57:49   'cause I think what happens is if they get updated,

00:57:52   I think they lose their spot and they always get added on to the right side.

00:57:57   So I like a balanced bar.

00:57:58   So I have four of these buttons that go in the address bar from extensions.

00:58:02   I like to put two on the left, two on the right.

00:58:04   And they always end up just having all four on the right within a few weeks.

00:58:08   Yeah, it's not good about remembering where you put things.

00:58:11   In the grand tradition of the modern Apple, they will let you rearrange things sometimes,

00:58:15   but they will not respect your rearrangement.

00:58:17   The only place I can say that isn't true is to the credit of iOS, Springboard is usually

00:58:23   pretty good about not moving your crap.

00:58:25   Not 100%, because every once in a while something will bump out of place, like if you do an

00:58:30   OS update and it adds an unmovable, undelatable Apple app and it'll bump your things around

00:58:34   or whatever, but it's pretty good.

00:58:35   But anyway, Safari Toolbars, yes.

00:58:38   I have experienced that.

00:58:39   And like I said, I experienced that not in the beta, not in the nightly, but just in

00:58:42   the regular stable one, not even during updates.

00:58:44   And I usually blame weird iCloud syncing.

00:58:47   It loses track of things and it's trying to notice that I added an icon somewhere six

00:58:51   years ago on a Mac that's no longer in service, but there's some state on some server somewhere

00:58:55   inside Apple that wakes up once every three months and spews a bunch of XML or property

00:59:01   lists towards my various Macs and perturbs the icons.

00:59:04   How am I supposed to pin cute dogs to Pinterest if I can't find the Pinterest button in Safari?

00:59:08   That's a problem.

00:59:11   Find them to key shortcuts.

00:59:12   But the most important feature of Safari Technology Preview, still unmentioned.

00:59:17   What is the most important feature?

00:59:18   Oh, the "Copy the Clipboard" thing so you can get rid of Flash?

00:59:22   No, it's got a purple icon!

00:59:24   Come on!

00:59:25   This is the whole reason anyone would ever—why would I want to use this?

00:59:29   Well, it's purple!

00:59:31   Purple is better than blue, and definitely better than Nightly, which is gray.

00:59:35   Yeah, no, actually, that's—the purple icon is actually, you know, I do like it, I do

00:59:41   like it better and it does look neat and it's the reason you might want to try it but it

00:59:44   highlights the one disappointing thing for me about it.

00:59:46   I would have preferred the Chrome system where you can just sort of tell Chrome go on the

00:59:52   Beta channel or whatever.

00:59:54   You only have one installation of Chrome and you just say, "But Chrome update yourself

00:59:58   from the Beta channel instead of the regular channel."

01:00:02   And the reason is Safari is still my default browser and I realized that I'm pretty much

01:00:05   never going to use the Safari technology preview unless I sort of disable or make inert the

01:00:12   standard one so that the preview can sort of take over as my default browser.

01:00:17   But I don't really want to do that either.

01:00:19   Like I would prefer to just have one Safari and switch it back and forth from should I

01:00:23   be pulling updates from the beta thing or not.

01:00:25   But this is certainly better than it was before because I never really ran the nightlies for

01:00:29   the reasons that Casey covered.

01:00:30   You know, it wasn't signed by Apple so you couldn't have the iCloud connection and everything.

01:00:34   So this is a step up,

01:00:36   but I don't really wanna run two copies of Safari

01:00:39   and I don't wanna have to zip up the old one.

01:00:41   And I'm not entirely confident that even if I tell the OS

01:00:44   to my default browser is this one

01:00:46   that the other one isn't gonna launch on its own.

01:00:48   Maybe I should give it a chance.

01:00:49   Maybe we should try using the verbal one for a while

01:00:50   and see if the blue one comes back to life zombie like

01:00:53   unless I zip it.

01:00:54   But anyway, lots of good new tech in like Casey mentioned

01:01:00   in the new one, a bunch of shadow DOM stuff,

01:01:02   EcmaScript 6, which is a slightly less crappy version of JavaScript.

01:01:07   So much hate.

01:01:08   Yeah, the copy and paste.

01:01:11   Not paste, sorry.

01:01:12   The cut and copy commands, which is great.

01:01:14   And I love that they highlight, you know, this is the only reason anyone still has legit

01:01:18   reason to run Flash because it's the only way to get stuff onto the clipboard.

01:01:21   We do it at work because sometimes you just want to have a link that you click that copies

01:01:24   something into the clipboard.

01:01:26   And having to run Flash for that has always felt gross.

01:01:28   So another browser supporting it natively is good.

01:01:31   But anyway, purple icon, thumbs up.

01:01:34   - Another interesting thing here,

01:01:35   I'm gonna read you the entire cut and copy portion

01:01:38   because it's very short.

01:01:39   Programmatic cut and copy to the clipboard.

01:01:41   It's now possible to programmatically copy and cut text

01:01:43   in response to a user gesture.

01:01:46   With blah and blah code,

01:01:48   having this ability may eliminate some websites

01:01:50   last need for the Flash plugin.

01:01:51   So yes, I love the dig on Flash,

01:01:54   but when I tweeted about this earlier,

01:01:56   a handful of people were like,

01:01:57   "Oh God, people are just gonna start pasting things in on me

01:02:00   or they're just gonna start copying what's in my clipboard,

01:02:03   what is this gonna mean for one password?

01:02:04   And everyone was, a few people were getting very upset.

01:02:08   And I think it's important to note,

01:02:10   one, that this is read only, or excuse me, write only.

01:02:15   Two, it's in response to a user gesture.

01:02:17   And three, I'm very curious to hear what that gesture is.

01:02:20   Is it that it can only be on like a click handler

01:02:22   or something like that?

01:02:23   Is it something more explicit?

01:02:25   I'm not sure.

01:02:26   But nevertheless, I think this is a really good thing.

01:02:29   - And it's already support.

01:02:30   I think Chrome already supports it like other modern browsers have ways to get things onto the clipboard without flash, right?

01:02:36   So it's not Safari's not the first one to implement this feature

01:02:38   And yeah, the security it's useless for even in response to a gesture like everything can be used to exploit eventually

01:02:44   You know with some sort of buffer overflow or whatever, but they can't pull the websites cannot get it

01:02:49   What's in your clipboard? All they can do is take their crap and put it there which could still be annoying like those stupid things

01:02:54   You know when you try to copy and paste text and they put the little attribution line next to it

01:02:58   Like we've all seen that one that it can still be annoying to put stuff into your clipboard

01:03:02   But annoying websites are always going to be annoying no matter what and so if the website does that you just won't go back to

01:03:08   It or we'll just deal with the annoyance

01:03:09   But they can't you know if you copy sensitive information and go to a website

01:03:13   This feature does not allow the website to get it that information in any way yep. No. This is this is a good thing and

01:03:19   it's another example of a

01:03:22   slightly

01:03:24   More transparent Apple which which I approve of I'm really I'm really pleased with the way

01:03:30   2015 2016 have been with Apple being more transparent with Swift with this. This is all good stuff, and they should be commended for it

01:03:38   Yeah, remember we talked about Safari is the new IE kind of stuff like not this is a direct reaction to that but this

01:03:44   Specifically addresses a lot of the actual issues raised in that like oh

01:03:50   "Oh, why isn't Apple doing more on Shadow DOM?" or whatever.

01:03:53   The idea that they just had the Knightlys and it was an opaque development process and

01:03:58   you had to wait for the next version of the OS to come out to get the thing.

01:04:01   Now this is an incremental step towards, even if you're not a developer and you're just

01:04:07   a regular user and you want to get features earlier, here's a more convenient way to do

01:04:11   it.

01:04:12   Even more convenient than the Knightlys that we've been building for you for a year.

01:04:14   And here's us talking about on our blog, this is not the first blog post, this is the Webkit

01:04:19   blog has been updated frequently to talk about the new features they're planning on adding

01:04:23   and just been much more open about stuff that we previously would have had to wait for WWDC

01:04:28   to sort of read the tea leaves of the WebKit work.

01:04:31   Because you couldn't even see all the WebKit work because Apple would do stuff internally

01:04:35   and they wouldn't commit to the public repository until they were ready to release.

01:04:39   And they're just being much more open about that process, including talking about future

01:04:43   products and say, "We're adding this, that, and that, and they're going to be coming into

01:04:46   future release, which is, you know, like they've been doing with Swift, is unheard of from

01:04:49   the old Apple, sort of talking about future features for products. Granted, obscure techie

01:04:55   nerd type products, right, you know, that only web developers or GUI application developers

01:05:00   really care about, but still, it, you know, trusting that people are going to understand,

01:05:05   "Oh, well, you promised this feature," whatever, like, if you see the whole development process

01:05:08   going out in the open, you'll understand when things get booted out, when, "Oh, this didn't

01:05:12   make it in time for Swift 3.

01:05:13   Like, when inevitably some proposal doesn't make it in time for Swift 3, even though they

01:05:17   talked about wanting to put it in there, no one will be mad because anyone involved in

01:05:21   the process would have seen every step of the way why that thing didn't make it into

01:05:25   the process.

01:05:26   What else were you doing during that time?

01:05:28   When everyone can see the process, it's so much more understandable.

01:05:30   It's like, "Oh, well, that didn't make it into Swift 3.

01:05:34   We're kicking it down the road."

01:05:36   It doesn't seem like some sinister plan to withhold technology goodies from you.

01:05:39   It just seems like the fallout of software development,

01:05:43   which has all sorts of unexpected things.

01:05:45   And when you've seen all those things happen

01:05:46   in front of you, who can be,

01:05:48   I mean, I'm sure someone will still find a way to be mad,

01:05:50   but very few sane people will be mad about it.

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01:07:08   So Intel has ended TikTok and I don't really know what to say about this other

01:07:16   than I think it's pretty expected.

01:07:18   So John, what are your thoughts?

01:07:20   I'm just kind of sad that I finally nailed down which one was the tick and which one

01:07:25   was the tock and then go and change the process.

01:07:27   All the hard work I put in, I studied and studied.

01:07:29   So which one is the tick and which one is the tock?

01:07:32   Shrink is the tick.

01:07:33   Okay.

01:07:34   But it's not that it matters anymore now. They have much more sensible name, so they had to come up with another another

01:07:39   You know I don't know catchphrase or whatever to marketing term for their new strategy funk

01:07:45   So instead of tick tock and sort of tick tock thunk they came up with it's not great tick tock was much better

01:07:51   So that team did a better job in this team and come up with the acronym

01:07:55   But this was PAO and that stands for process architecture and optimization and so which one is the shrink?

01:08:02   It's the one that's called process like it's much easier now

01:08:05   They made that part of it easier, but PAO does not roll off the tongue like tik-tok does

01:08:09   So it's basically you know process is the tick

01:08:13   architecture is the talk that's when they produce a new micro architecture a new chip that has a you know a

01:08:19   Different number of execution units and different branch prediction and different cache size

01:08:22   I don't know you know like it's a new architecture, and then they're adding a new third phase called optimization

01:08:27   Which as far as I'm aware?

01:08:28   I'm looking at older article or we'll link in the show notes from and tech as far as I'm aware. They haven't really

01:08:33   Nailed down what's gonna happen in the optimization phase beyond saying well

01:08:38   It's not gonna be a shrink and it's not gonna be a new architecture. It's gonna be this third time when we do other

01:08:44   Things what can they do an optimization?

01:08:46   They can make the integrated GPU better. They could you know

01:08:50   Maybe make it use less power through more clever

01:08:54   you know, power management or throttling or thermals or, you know, I don't know what they're gonna do the optimization phase

01:09:01   we'll find out but it's going to be a formal a

01:09:03   formal part of the process and as many people in the chat room are snarkily trying to imply like TikTok

01:09:09   may have been the the strategy in name for the past year or two

01:09:13   but

01:09:14   the sort of the length of the tick and the length of the tocks have been stretching out in weird ways and

01:09:19   really this three-phase architecture is just more of an acknowledgement of

01:09:23   what was sort of happening already that the time scales are stretched out more and

01:09:27   that Intel wants to recognize that and set expectations to say we are gonna do a new process and then we're gonna do a new

01:09:34   architecture and then we're going to sort of

01:09:36   work on the two of them together for a little while longer to give the next process a longer time to

01:09:41   Hopefully arrive on our new three-phase

01:09:45   Schedule so we're all sort of still staring

01:09:50   at sort of the oncoming train of the the end of Moore's law

01:09:54   The real end is very far out in the distance theoretically speaking

01:09:59   But practically speaking there need to be it's getting harder and harder to make things smaller and smaller

01:10:03   with lithography techniques

01:10:06   And the research and the money required to go down to the next smaller size is like what you know

01:10:11   The real next breakthrough has to be like do we have to continue to use a lithography, you know sort of shining

01:10:17   Not so much light or you know shining forms of electromagnetic

01:10:20   Magnetic radiation onto a thing to cause the areas exposed to react differently than the non exposed areas

01:10:28   That's what we've been doing for our entire lives to make

01:10:31   Integrated circuits. I don't know what's next assembling

01:10:35   Transistors out of individual atoms or weird technologies that you know in the you know sort of the R&D realm

01:10:42   You can definitely make things smaller that way, but you can't make them at scale

01:10:45   And so there's this sort of general research gap.

01:10:48   But anyway, Intel plows bravely forward.

01:10:51   And the last show we talked a lot about Intel missing their dates and holding up Apple's

01:10:55   things or whatever, but the bottom line is they're still ahead of all their competition

01:10:58   in terms of their process, how far along they are at different process sizes.

01:11:03   And that continues to be an advantage for them.

01:11:07   And maybe they'll be the ones to make the next step before everybody else because they're

01:11:10   putting in the time and energy and they're already ahead of everybody else.

01:11:13   So you can't really be picking on Intel too much because they are sort of at the bleeding

01:11:18   edge of this, but if there is a wall out in the future, Intel may just get to it first

01:11:23   and then everyone catches up with them and then Intel's advantage is gone.

01:11:27   So stay tuned for the ATP episode in 15 years when we revisit that topic.

01:11:32   Oh goodness.

01:11:35   I can only hope.

01:11:37   All right, so speaking of Intel kind of falling on its face and speaking of really crummy

01:11:42   and loose segues, the Oculus founder said that the Oculus Rift, which was shipped in

01:11:50   the last day or two, right? Anyway, the the Rift will come to the Mac only if Apple quote

01:11:56   "ever releases a good computer" quote. Maybe that's all Intel's fault. So what's going

01:12:03   on here? Why is, what, in what, by what metric is Apple not releasing a good computer?

01:12:07   I mean I hit on this a little bit last week. I mean the main thing is that the Oculus requires

01:12:15   a pretty intense graphics card and over time, you know, more pedestrian ones will probably

01:12:20   be able to drive it just fine, but right now it's so cutting edge and it has such high

01:12:23   graphical needs that it requires a really, really high powered graphics card and there's

01:12:28   only a handful in the PC world that are good enough to do it and Apple ships none of those

01:12:33   in any of their computers. The only computer that could even come close would maybe be

01:12:37   the Mac Pro, but the current Mac Pro is two and a half years old or so and has fairly

01:12:44   outdated GPUs as a result of being so old. I think we covered this a little bit last

01:12:49   week, so I don't want to go too far into it now, but I think the short version is that

01:12:52   there's a few problems here, most of which Apple doesn't appear to care about. You

01:12:57   know, as I'm sure John will discuss in a second, I don't think Apple cares that much

01:13:00   about games on the Mac, but you know Apple has so far for a long time now tied their

01:13:07   updates to Intel's updates. And as we discussed Intel's cycles have been getting longer between

01:13:12   major updates to their CPU's that has also stretched out Mac update cycles and Apple's

01:13:18   habit as it was last week of skipping some processor generations that Intel gives them

01:13:24   for their lower volume products like the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro and you know even some

01:13:29   of the laptops these days.

01:13:31   Their Apple strategy for skipping some of the things

01:13:33   that they could use, kind of like holding off

01:13:36   till better ones come later,

01:13:38   that's also working against them,

01:13:39   because again, as the Intel generations have gotten longer,

01:13:43   we now have a situation that we have today

01:13:46   with most of the laptops, where we're sitting around

01:13:49   waiting for the Skylake revision from Intel

01:13:51   to come out in quantity so that Apple can ship

01:13:54   the new MacBook Pros, and meanwhile,

01:13:56   the ones you buy today have something like

01:13:57   three year old CPU in them.

01:13:59   So something here has to change.

01:14:01   Either, well, I hope something has to change.

01:14:04   We'll see if it actually does or not,

01:14:05   based on Apple's actions.

01:14:06   But obviously Intel can't deliver

01:14:09   new generations of chips any faster.

01:14:12   We're seeing that.

01:14:13   We're seeing that they are slowing down

01:14:14   in their rate of being able to deliver these things

01:14:16   'cause just everything's getting harder.

01:14:18   So Apple needs to either be okay not getting these markets

01:14:22   and be okay selling three year old hardware in Macs,

01:14:27   brand new today on a regular basis.

01:14:30   Or Apple has to stop skipping Intel generations,

01:14:33   which would generally cut their product cycle time in half

01:14:36   because they tend to skip every other generation

01:14:38   on some of these products like the Mac Pro.

01:14:40   Or Apple can start issuing updates to products

01:14:44   even when there is no new CPU to use from Intel.

01:14:48   Which they have occasionally done,

01:14:50   but it's not a routine thing for them.

01:14:53   Any of those things could solve this problem.

01:14:56   Also, then you have the issue of like,

01:14:57   even if they kept their products more up to date,

01:15:00   what products does Apple sell that could accommodate

01:15:04   the size and thermals of a high power GPU?

01:15:08   And it's basically like one and a half.

01:15:10   It's like the Mac Pro for sure,

01:15:12   and then maybe the big iMac,

01:15:14   depending on the cooling requirements and everything.

01:15:16   You basically have two Macs that Apple could plausibly put

01:15:19   really high power GPUs in,

01:15:21   and both of those are probably pretty low volume

01:15:25   products for them, especially the Mac Pro.

01:15:27   So it just seems like Apple doesn't really care

01:15:31   to address this market, which I think is unfortunate

01:15:34   because I wish Apple had a little bit more hunger

01:15:38   in attracting people from PCs than they seem to,

01:15:42   but with the exception of the whole iPad stuff,

01:15:45   but that's a whole different thing.

01:15:46   But I do wish they would solve this more often

01:15:48   because I think it would make Macs better also.

01:15:50   And if Apple ever has VR ambitions,

01:15:52   this will hurt them as well.

01:15:54   But for now, this is the situation we're in,

01:15:57   and we'll see if any of those factors change.

01:15:59   - Apple's attitude towards these things

01:16:02   has been frustrating.

01:16:03   Like a couple years ago, I wrote something on my blog

01:16:06   asking for the cheese grater

01:16:08   that hadn't been updated in forever,

01:16:09   back when the show just started.

01:16:10   That was one of the reasons their icons

01:16:12   was the old cheese grater

01:16:13   with the sarcastic new label on it

01:16:15   because they introduced a new Mac Pro that was barely new.

01:16:17   And it's like, are you ever gonna update this?

01:16:19   What's the deal?

01:16:20   And I was asking for them to,

01:16:23   Is there anyone left at Apple who really cares about high performance computers?

01:16:26   No they're not going to make a lot of money for you, no they're not going to be high volume,

01:16:29   you know it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but if you are computer enthusiasts,

01:16:36   isn't there someone there who like really likes fast great computers, just like the

01:16:40   example I use for Halo cars in the car industry where lots of car companies make a car, there's

01:16:44   probably going to be a money loser for them, just because car companies are filled with

01:16:48   people who love cars, and people who love cars tend to love fast cars and beautiful

01:16:51   cars and so they make these cars that are just, you know, you might look at them as

01:16:55   a boondoggle like you spend all this money on R&D, it's got all these custom parts, no

01:17:00   one's even going to use this thing and it's weird and finicky or whatever but you make

01:17:03   it because you love cars, right?

01:17:05   And they did that.

01:17:06   The tube Mac Pro, I mean you may not agree with their vision but you can't say that they

01:17:10   just kind of punted it and just like, "Oh, here's another tower computer."

01:17:13   They had the vision of this crazy tube-shaped computer like that this was their vision of

01:17:17   of high performance computing,

01:17:19   and it had these at the time,

01:17:20   fairly powerful video cards with 12 gigs of VRAM,

01:17:23   which was unprecedented shipping stock on a Mac,

01:17:25   and it was interesting and innovative on all fronts.

01:17:29   Was it a good supercar?

01:17:31   Was it a good halo car?

01:17:32   Maybe not or whatever.

01:17:33   But then you can't go, and then just let that sit there.

01:17:37   Like, man, you just lose interest, right?

01:17:40   'Cause that sort of like on again, off again thing

01:17:43   where it's like, we love high performance.

01:17:45   Here's an amazingly expandable Mac

01:17:46   looks like a cheese grater and it's easy to open up and you can swap the RAM and we'll

01:17:50   update it frequently and you can put in different video cards and it has slots and look how

01:17:55   easy it is to take in and out the drives and the first one can only do two drives and now

01:17:58   this one can do four and it's even easier to get the drives in and out and they made

01:18:02   a water-cooled one.

01:18:03   It seemed like they were on that bandwagon for a pretty long time and then they lost

01:18:06   interest.

01:18:07   And then they came back and were interested and then they said immediately lost interest

01:18:09   again.

01:18:10   And that's not a way to attract people who have similar sensibilities.

01:18:15   "Hey, are you one of the people who's like a gear head

01:18:18   "who loves supercars and high performance cars?

01:18:20   "Do you like big high performance computers?"

01:18:23   In some respects, as an end in and of themselves,

01:18:26   you don't even need this, but you just think it's cool,

01:18:28   the same reason people buy fast cars

01:18:30   that they can never drive

01:18:31   at the full speed that they're gonna drive.

01:18:32   It's like, if you're that type of,

01:18:34   does Apple care about the customer?

01:18:36   Sometimes they do,

01:18:37   because there are people inside Apple who are like that,

01:18:39   but then all of a sudden they don't again,

01:18:41   and it becomes hard to trust the company.

01:18:42   And so many people,

01:18:43   so many things I've been reading lately about pros,

01:18:47   maybe these people who actually have legit need

01:18:49   like professional graphics people or professional 3D people,

01:18:51   professional video people or whatever,

01:18:53   saying that sometimes Apple, it pays attention to them,

01:18:57   but then they don't and they're kind of tired

01:18:59   of the rocky relationship and they're going to somewhere

01:19:03   that has more consistently supported them

01:19:05   and they're switching to PCs or whatever.

01:19:06   Gamers have long since made that decision

01:19:08   and say Apple has never really cared about gamers

01:19:10   and only incidentally when they shipped machines

01:19:12   where it was easy to swap video cards,

01:19:14   could you buy a PC video card, flash it for your Mac,

01:19:17   shove it in there, and then boom, you've got a Mac

01:19:20   that is actually a really good gaming PC as well.

01:19:22   That's part of Palmer Lucky's complaint here.

01:19:25   The quote I put in the notes about this is,

01:19:27   "You can buy a $6,000 Mac Pro

01:19:29   with top of the line AMD Fire Pro D700

01:19:32   and it still doesn't match our recommended specs."

01:19:34   Like it doesn't even meet, like here's sort of like the,

01:19:37   "Here's what we think you should have for the Rift.

01:19:39   A $6,000 Mac Pro doesn't meet it."

01:19:41   Like maybe, you know, when that $6,000 Mac Pro

01:19:45   was introduced, it would have been a reasonable thing.

01:19:48   Like if Oculus had come out then,

01:19:49   their minimum spec may have been lower,

01:19:50   like, you know, lower resolution or whatever,

01:19:53   lower target frame rate, whatever the things are.

01:19:54   But nowadays it's the same computer.

01:19:56   It's still $6,000 and it's still got the D700 in it.

01:19:59   And the world has just moved on by leaps and bounds.

01:20:02   Even when it was introduced, in this case,

01:20:03   the D700 was not a gaming-focused card.

01:20:05   So even when it was introduced,

01:20:06   there were gaming cards that were way faster, right?

01:20:09   But now it's just ridiculous.

01:20:10   But the price hasn't gone down, right?

01:20:11   The whole Apple thing of like,

01:20:12   we will continue to sell the same computer

01:20:14   for the same price for three years

01:20:16   while the rest of the world moves on.

01:20:18   Which you can get away with in some markets,

01:20:20   but if you're gonna do anything

01:20:21   in sort of the high-end, pro, super powerful, or whatever,

01:20:26   I just wish the Mac Pro,

01:20:27   whether it pays attention to gaming at all,

01:20:28   I just wish the Mac Pro would be the best,

01:20:31   fastest computer in the world at something

01:20:33   for any sustained period of time.

01:20:34   'Cause I feel like that is entirely possible.

01:20:36   Fine, make it the best computer for running

01:20:37   weird painting 12 megapixel textures in real time onto models things they demoed at WWDC

01:20:44   for Pixar and everything.

01:20:46   Make it the best computer in the world for that, for more than 15 minutes.

01:20:50   It doesn't even have to be games, but I think it should be something.

01:20:54   It's sad that they've been neglected like that, and it's sad that in this case Apple

01:20:58   is completely missing out as far as we can see on the outside on the entirety of VR,

01:21:03   which who knows, I really hope Apple has all sorts of VR projects internally and they decided

01:21:07   that it's not ready or not interesting, or the form it's taking on PCs, they're not interested

01:21:11   or whatever.

01:21:13   But they're not allowing people who buy even their highest-end computers to participate

01:21:19   in it even speculatively.

01:21:21   So it's kind of depressing.

01:21:24   And the final point is, with the whole Palmer, he's slamming the Macs.

01:21:27   I think he's slamming them with reason, but it doesn't mean that you need an amazingly

01:21:32   powerful graphics card to do "VR."

01:21:35   You need it for the Oculus Rift, which is a particular VR product, but as we talked

01:21:39   about earlier, if you have a PlayStation 4, you can get PlayStation VR for a couple hundred

01:21:43   bucks extra, it's not going to be as good as the Rift.

01:21:45   It's not going to be as powerful, but it will run on your PlayStation 4, which is nowhere

01:21:49   near as powerful as the recommended system for the Oculus Rift.

01:21:52   So VR does not equal the Oculus Rift.

01:21:55   They're two different things.

01:21:56   This is a specific product, and VR is a concept, hell, they have ones that you can use on your

01:21:59   cell phone.

01:22:00   Now, obviously the Rift is probably going to be the highest end one or whatever, but

01:22:05   You don't have to entirely miss out on VR because you don't have a fancy high-end gaming

01:22:09   PC.

01:22:10   If you're interested in it, as at least Marco and I both are, we'll try it out on a couple

01:22:16   hundred bucks thing we buy on our PlayStation, and it'll probably be weird, and it's the

01:22:21   very first consumer release of this technology, so inevitably, ten years from now, we'll look

01:22:25   back on this VR and think either it's ridiculous that we even considered VR to be a thing,

01:22:29   or look back at it and look at how incredibly primitive it is compared to what comes after

01:22:33   it.

01:22:34   We'll link to that piece in Polygon of basically saying, "Your Mac is fine for VR, just not

01:22:39   for the Rift."

01:22:40   Which, again, it's high-end versus capability.

01:22:43   Like, I want some Mac somewhere to be the best computer in the world for some demanding

01:22:49   computational function, because I'm into fast computers.

01:22:51   That's why.

01:22:52   Like, I don't feel like I need any way to justify it like that, and I wish there were

01:22:54   more people in Apple that had the same attitude.

01:22:57   Yeah, and it isn't just about gaming or VR.

01:23:00   You know, even if VR doesn't take off,

01:23:03   or even if you can disregard gamers

01:23:06   as a market Apple cares about,

01:23:08   lots of Apple software,

01:23:10   or software that Apple customers would have run,

01:23:12   can make use of the extra resources

01:23:15   of a well-equipped Mac Pro.

01:23:17   You know, the Mac Pro is the only computer

01:23:19   in the Mac lineup that can have more than four cores.

01:23:22   And as discussed previously, much to John Chagrin,

01:23:26   I run a utility in my menu bar called iStat Menus.

01:23:29   - Me too.

01:23:30   uses up all those cores.

01:23:31   - It shows me when my cores are in use and by what.

01:23:36   And I've noticed, you know, like over the last few years,

01:23:40   you know, even though making software multi-threaded

01:23:43   is difficult and not everything can effectively

01:23:46   take advantage of multiple cores,

01:23:48   I have noticed in recent years that a lot more

01:23:51   of the things that I do are taking advantage

01:23:53   of multiple cores.

01:23:55   And there's lots of, and even stuff that a lot of people

01:23:58   use like Apple's Photos app for instance or any kind of heavy photo workflow, Lightroom,

01:24:05   Photos app, Aperture, if you do any kind of video stuff of course that will use it too.

01:24:11   Lots of software that a lot of people use can take advantage of any amount of cores

01:24:17   you give it within reason. So you can, right now the iMacs and the 15 inch MacBook Pros

01:24:23   have four cores, I would love to have an eight or 12 core Mac Pro, that would be amazing.

01:24:29   But right now they're just, they're not that competitive because there's no reason to buy

01:24:35   one right now with the prices and the age of them and everything. But like, there's

01:24:40   so much software now, so many common needs that lots of Apple customers do have that

01:24:48   could take advantage of this. You don't have to just be a video editor or a high end gamer

01:24:52   to want a Mac Pro. You know, and I can complain at length about the trade-offs made by the

01:24:59   new tube Mac Pro compared to the old cheese grater. It is overall a good product if it

01:25:04   was updated on a regular basis, but you know, the old cheese grater I think was a better

01:25:08   one honestly in many ways. But I at least want something, some sign that somebody at

01:25:15   Apple both A) cares about the Mac, which is, I know a lot of the executives do care about

01:25:23   the Mac, but sometimes it's hard to see the actions of that on the outside, and B)

01:25:29   that somebody high up at Apple cares about high-end pro use of the Mac. And that is the

01:25:35   part that's been seemingly fading in recent years, and I worry about that. You know, it's

01:25:40   thing to exit the software game, to discontinue Aperture. Final Cut I think they're still

01:25:45   okay on. I don't know much about the video world, but I think they are maintaining that

01:25:48   okay. Logic, they're maintaining okay. Even if Apple starts slacking off on the software

01:25:55   side of addressing the pro market, it worries me greatly when they start ignoring the hardware

01:26:01   side because like the software side, we have good alternatives. If Aperture went away,

01:26:07   we have Lightroom, you know, and we have the new Photos app.

01:26:10   If Final Cut goes away, there's like Avid

01:26:12   and other things people use.

01:26:14   You know, if Logic goes away, there's other audio editors.

01:26:16   But if there's no more high-end Mac hardware,

01:26:21   you have to abandon the entire Mac platform

01:26:24   to have an alternative to that,

01:26:26   which is a really high bar and it's a really big ask

01:26:29   and a lot of people like me don't want to do it.

01:26:31   I don't want to abandon the Mac.

01:26:33   I don't want to build a Hackintosh

01:26:34   or switch to Linux or Windows.

01:26:36   I wanna keep using Mac OS.

01:26:38   And Mac OS was designed incredibly well

01:26:41   and incredibly well-architected to take advantage

01:26:43   of incredibly high-end hardware

01:26:45   that Apple just doesn't really sell anymore.

01:26:47   And that's kinda sad.

01:26:49   - Well, the OpenGL stack is not great,

01:26:52   but aside from that, yeah.

01:26:54   - I think you make a decent point, Marco,

01:26:56   but I also don't think we should be throwing

01:26:58   in the towel quite yet.

01:26:59   I mean, I would agree that they don't update things

01:27:02   like the Mac Pro as frequently as anyone in the world

01:27:05   me would want. I'm perfectly happy with them not updating it but every 10 years so I don't have to

01:27:10   go through another one of those months of this show when that's all we talked about. But, you

01:27:18   know, in all seriousness, I don't think that we should be too disgruntled or sad that we haven't

01:27:26   seen one in admittedly a fair bit of time because presumably this will get fixed and it will get

01:27:31   fixed soon enough. And I don't blame you for being grumbly about the pace with which they're

01:27:37   refreshing the Mac Pro, but it's got to be coming. I mean, it has to be, and presumably

01:27:42   soon.

01:27:43   I hope so.

01:27:44   That sounds like exactly what we were saying when the cheese grater was over, like, "Well,

01:27:48   but they've got updated eventually." And then eventually we enter the second phase, which

01:27:51   is like, "Maybe they're never going to update again. Maybe they're just going to stop selling

01:27:54   Mac Pros." Like, that was the headspace we were in around about the time that the tube

01:27:59   because we were seriously considering, well, you know, Apple really has a consumer focus lately,

01:28:03   and they're all about the iPhone and the iPad, and, you know, do they really need the Mac Pro

01:28:09   in their lineup? Not really. Maybe they feel like they can get away, like maybe they just won't make

01:28:13   any more Mac Pros, and then they came up with the tube. And like I said, you can argue about whether

01:28:17   the tube is the correct vision for high performance computing, but you can't say they skimped,

01:28:21   you can't say they just gave you a watered down iMac in a tube shape. Like that thing was

01:28:25   a Mac Pro through and through with their vision of you know a whole bunch of ports on the back of the thing and

01:28:30   Circular and two huge video card not one huge GPU

01:28:33   But two huge GPUs and one of them you know and and their technology for using them for compute as also using to drive the graphics

01:28:40   And the enclosure and like it's not the same vision as the cheese grater

01:28:43   But it is a high-performance vision and it was exciting to see that you know that was I think that was actually the Schiller can

01:28:49   Innovate my ass thing right like yep

01:28:51   Can't innovate anymore my ass

01:28:53   (audience laughing)

01:28:57   That was legit.

01:28:58   You know, you could be crowing about that.

01:28:59   And again, like you could just disagree

01:29:01   about the vision of the product,

01:29:02   but you can't say that they were skimping

01:29:04   and were afraid and were just kind of like

01:29:07   dipping their toe into high performance computers.

01:29:09   They wanted to make the future of high performance computers

01:29:13   but it's just, it was just been so painful

01:29:15   to see that thing land and then just nothing for so long,

01:29:19   especially since the one that landed, you know,

01:29:21   as we discussed much on the show,

01:29:24   what Marco and I wanted was,

01:29:27   what was I calling it back then,

01:29:28   the quad 27 inch display, right?

01:29:31   And we knew this thing couldn't drive it, right?

01:29:33   And it was like, well, but this is the first one,

01:29:35   you know, it can't drive it.

01:29:36   Maybe it could drive it.

01:29:37   No, it can't quite drive it or whatever,

01:29:38   but you know, it's not the one that we want,

01:29:41   but okay, maybe the tech's not ready for it,

01:29:43   but surely the next one will do it.

01:29:44   We didn't think the next one

01:29:44   was gonna come three years later, you know?

01:29:46   We thought, yeah.

01:29:47   And in the meantime, we both got 5K iMacs.

01:29:49   So, my wife did anyway.

01:29:52   So we've got our display, but it's not in the Mac Pro,

01:29:54   and the current Mac Pro still can't drive it,

01:29:56   and we assume the next one will be able to drive it,

01:29:58   but we don't know when that one's coming, and--

01:30:00   - Even that's a question mark, honestly.

01:30:02   Like whether the next Mac Pro will be able

01:30:04   to drive a 5K display is honestly still a question mark.

01:30:08   But to me, like I've complained in the past

01:30:10   about the drive-by software updates,

01:30:12   that like lower priority things seem to get

01:30:15   like these drive-by updates, where like,

01:30:16   they'll get attention for like an hour,

01:30:18   you'll have one engineer working on something

01:30:19   for like a week and then never allowed to touch it again,

01:30:21   and that's how you get something like the

01:30:23   El Capitan Disk Utility.

01:30:24   It seems like the Mac Pro, from what we know so far,

01:30:28   and maybe Apple's about to prove us all wrong on this,

01:30:30   I hope they are, but from what we know so far,

01:30:32   it seems like the Mac Pro update to the tube

01:30:35   was a drive-by hardware update,

01:30:37   where they were ignoring it seemingly for a long time,

01:30:41   and then they had this great update that,

01:30:44   Again, I can complain a lot about what they did to it

01:30:48   because I think they made it a lot more narrow

01:30:53   and a lot more expensive than what it was before.

01:30:57   They really narrowed the appeal

01:30:59   and they eliminated a lot of totally valid use cases.

01:31:01   But they did innovate, as Phil Schiller's ass said,

01:31:05   they did innovate. (laughing)

01:31:07   But they innovated and then they just kinda

01:31:10   dropped the ball after that.

01:31:12   There are new CPUs for that.

01:31:14   they could have used in the meantime

01:31:15   and they skipped a generation.

01:31:17   - They could have upgraded the GPUs.

01:31:18   - Yeah, they could have upgraded just the GPUs.

01:31:20   If they're so focused on this machine,

01:31:23   having these two workstation GPUs

01:31:26   that somebody like me who would wanna buy the machine

01:31:29   doesn't need it all, I would gladly buy it

01:31:30   with one consumer GPU because I'm buying it

01:31:34   for the CPU power and the RAM's healing and everything else,

01:31:37   not the GPU reasons.

01:31:39   If they're going to refocus the entire machine

01:31:43   on this high-end dual GPU use,

01:31:45   then follow through on that.

01:31:47   And they didn't follow through.

01:31:48   The GPUs are sitting there stale forever.

01:31:50   I've heard from people who try to use OpenCL for things

01:31:54   that it's really kind of been,

01:31:56   had the ball dropped on it as well,

01:31:58   that it just seems like they came in

01:32:01   and they did this huge redesign and refocus

01:32:04   of the product that we weren't really asking for

01:32:06   and then didn't follow through even on that.

01:32:08   So that's why I'm so sad for this product

01:32:11   because I love the Mac Pro.

01:32:13   I love, especially what it used to be,

01:32:15   I love having this extremely flexible expandable tower

01:32:19   that had two CPU sockets, tons of RAM slots,

01:32:22   you could put a whole bunch of drives in it.

01:32:24   And granted, you can modernize it in other ways.

01:32:26   Like, you know, these days,

01:32:27   you don't maybe need as many drives anymore

01:32:29   'cause now we're in the era of SSDs

01:32:31   and the drives have gotten so big,

01:32:33   you don't need as many anymore.

01:32:34   So like, you can see them removing some of these things.

01:32:38   I do still greatly miss dual socket configurations

01:32:42   and I do greatly miss configurations

01:32:44   that don't have two graphics cards

01:32:46   because I don't need them.

01:32:47   But I hope they write this at some point soon.

01:32:52   I don't know if they will or not,

01:32:55   but I really hope they do.

01:32:56   And I'm still maintaining some optimism

01:32:58   'cause if they don't, the iMac 5K is a great product.

01:33:02   I'm using mine, I'm almost always very happy with it.

01:33:06   I would like a lot more CPU power,

01:33:08   so if they make a compelling Mac Pro

01:33:11   that I can get eight cores in reasonably,

01:33:13   I would love that.

01:33:14   But if the Mac Pro withers away in irrelevance

01:33:18   the way it has been over the last few years,

01:33:21   and if it's never good again,

01:33:24   I still have the iMac, and that's fine,

01:33:27   but boy, I wish I could have the Mac Pro back.

01:33:30   - Just because of CPU speed?

01:33:32   - Mostly because of CPU speed.

01:33:34   - And fan quietness.

01:33:35   - Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:33:36   Things like being totally silent at any load level

01:33:39   is just kind of more graceful and nice.

01:33:42   Having the Xeon class components and the ECC RAM

01:33:45   and everything makes, I feel like it makes things

01:33:47   slightly more reliable, having more internal ports,

01:33:50   stuff like that, you know, like more USB ports built in

01:33:53   rather than having to use flaky hubs, stuff like that.

01:33:56   Like I love all those things about the Mac Pro.

01:33:58   In many ways I miss it.

01:34:00   And again, if we never get it back the way me or John

01:34:03   on it, we'll deal, we'll be okay, but it does seem like a waste that there's all

01:34:08   these amazing CPUs out there at the high-end world. Like in the next generation, the Broad

01:34:13   Bell Xeons, there's a 5 GHz part with 4 cores. If you can have a dual socket configuration,

01:34:20   have two of those, 8 cores at 5 GHz, that would be incredible. That would be the best

01:34:27   single-threaded and multi-threaded Mac. But they're not going to offer that because the

01:34:31   the current Mac Pro design is only one socket.

01:34:33   And the CPUs they use can do two,

01:34:36   they just don't offer that machine.

01:34:38   And it's just like, there's so much more they could offer.

01:34:41   There are so many great processors in the Xeon line

01:34:43   they could offer, and there are so many use cases

01:34:46   the old Mac Pro solved that the new one doesn't.

01:34:49   And all those things make me sad.

01:34:51   But I'm still hoping for a Mac Pro update soon.

01:34:54   We'll see what happens, I guess.

01:34:57   - Have faith, it'll happen.

01:34:59   - Hope so.

01:35:00   Alright, thanks to our three sponsors this week, Casper, Warby Parker, and Audible.com,

01:35:06   and we will see you next week.

01:35:07   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental, oh it

01:35:18   was accidental.

01:35:19   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, 'cause it was accidental,

01:35:27   It was accidental.

01:35:28   It was accidental.

01:35:29   Accidental.

01:35:30   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

01:35:31   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:35:45   So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M, N-T-Marco-Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-Z-I-N-E-S.

01:35:56   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:35:58   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:36:00   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:36:02   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:36:04   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:36:05   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:36:07   ♪ So long ♪

01:36:09   - So you added a family member.

01:36:12   - I did, yes, it has wheels though.

01:36:15   You subtracted one too.

01:36:18   - Yes, may the M5 rest in peace.

01:36:23   I'll miss that car.

01:36:25   You know, I'll tell you what,

01:36:26   when I was preparing to drop it off

01:36:29   and when I did drop it off,

01:36:30   I was almost in tears.

01:36:33   Like, I really, this is the only time

01:36:37   that I've ever given up a car that I owned

01:36:39   where I was really sad to see it go.

01:36:41   Every other time that I've either stopped having a car

01:36:46   or upgraded to a different car,

01:36:49   every other time I've been kind of ambivalent

01:36:52   toward my old one for some reason, you know,

01:36:55   either before I was leasing,

01:36:56   either it'd be like,

01:36:57   'cause it was costing me a lot of money,

01:36:58   'cause it was breaking down constantly,

01:36:59   and that's why I was getting a different car,

01:37:01   or like with my previous 3 Series lease,

01:37:06   I knew I was upgrading to the M5,

01:37:08   so going from a 3 Series to an M5 was a huge jump,

01:37:11   and I was like, "Oh man, I'm so excited.

01:37:12   "This 3 Series, yeah, it'll be fine.

01:37:14   "I'm going to the M5.

01:37:15   "Forget the 3 Series."

01:37:17   This time, the M5, it's so good,

01:37:21   And it's so different from where I was going

01:37:25   that I was almost regretting it.

01:37:27   I was almost second guessing my move.

01:37:29   Like when I was turning, I'm like, man,

01:37:30   am I gonna really regret this?

01:37:32   'Cause where I'm going is different.

01:37:35   It's not all better.

01:37:36   It's better in some ways, worse than others.

01:37:39   And that M5 just is such a good car

01:37:42   that I was really very sad to leave it.

01:37:47   - Yeah, I'm sad that you left it behind me.

01:37:49   I don't blame you.

01:37:49   It's not like you did anything wrong,

01:37:51   but I'm sad about it because I feel like I bonded

01:37:54   with that car.

01:37:55   I mean, it's the only car I've ever driven.

01:37:57   It's the only car I've ever driven in two countries.

01:37:59   It's the only car that's ever shuffled me around Germany.

01:38:02   It's the only car I've ever been in

01:38:04   or driven the Nurburgring on in, whatever.

01:38:07   We as a group of four spent a lot of good times in that car

01:38:12   and you guys as a group of two and three

01:38:14   spent a lot of good times in that car.

01:38:16   It's sad, but that's okay

01:38:18   because you have bought yourself a Tesla.

01:38:20   - Well, I leased myself a Tesla.

01:38:23   They still own it.

01:38:25   - Well, that was the problem.

01:38:26   You leased the M5 too.

01:38:27   It was never really yours.

01:38:28   - Yeah, exactly.

01:38:29   - I know you felt like it was yours,

01:38:30   but you were just leasing it.

01:38:31   So you were never willing to commit to the M5.

01:38:34   You're always like, for three years,

01:38:36   I'll give you a trial period M5.

01:38:37   Maybe I'll like you, maybe I won't,

01:38:39   but you're probably going back.

01:38:41   - Believe me, you don't want to own an M car

01:38:44   older than three years.

01:38:45   (laughing)

01:38:46   - I mean, it depends.

01:38:47   The thing I'll miss most about the M cars is what we just talked about about the Mac Pro.

01:38:52   I mean, maybe it's partly where I live, but Tesla's like the Toyota Camry of where I live.

01:38:56   They're all over the place, but I rarely see an M5.

01:39:00   I think there's two in the whole extended neighborhood area, but there's a Tesla on every other driveway.

01:39:06   So the Tesla just seems less special because it's less rare.

01:39:10   It's also less of a Mac Pro in terms of, "We make lots of good cars, and they're plenty fast,

01:39:17   But can we take one of our cars and make it you know as good and as fast as we possibly can and I don't

01:39:23   Even care what kind of car does he even there's a big giant four-door sedan we can make that go fast, too

01:39:27   Let's let's work our magic like it's the you know it's the

01:39:31   Almost pointlessly exotic high-end right and the Tesla especially since you didn't get the pointless exotic high-end Tesla

01:39:39   But even if you had it's still more

01:39:41   It's got other goals because it is a whole new platform a whole new technology

01:39:46   And it is necessarily more prosaic. We are not at the at the stage yet where there can even be an electric car

01:39:52   That is a regular street car that is as focused on

01:39:55   ridiculously excessive performance applied to another car as

01:39:59   The most ridiculous AMG Mercedes or the m5 or any sort of supercar type of thing so I feel like you are

01:40:07   taking a

01:40:09   Step up in practicality and a step down in

01:40:12   ridiculous

01:40:14   automotive excess

01:40:15   - Hey!

01:40:16   - Okay, well first of all, I think I disagree

01:40:19   with two big things that you just said.

01:40:21   Number one, I would say the Model S,

01:40:23   in its various like supercar configurations,

01:40:26   which I didn't get as you said,

01:40:27   like the P configurations and then the one

01:40:29   with the ludicrous mode, I would say those maybe are

01:40:32   those kind of extreme configurations.

01:40:34   And also, I have never seen as many other M5s

01:40:38   in one neighborhood as I have

01:40:40   when I visited your neighborhood.

01:40:41   (laughing)

01:40:42   - There's a lot of 5s and there are a couple of M5s,

01:40:45   But the Teslas are everywhere.

01:40:47   They are just, like seriously,

01:40:48   it is the Toyota Camry of my neighborhood.

01:40:51   Like when I commute, all I just see is Teslas,

01:40:54   before the Tesla, as I pointed out,

01:40:56   much to Casey's upsetness,

01:40:59   that the Panamera was the other thing

01:41:01   that like before Tesla came on the scene.

01:41:03   Panamera's were everywhere.

01:41:04   I was like, who is buying these cars?

01:41:06   They were everywhere.

01:41:07   - We're only talking about happy thoughts this time, John.

01:41:09   No Panamera discussion.

01:41:10   - Yeah, seriously.

01:41:11   - But it's the same type of thing,

01:41:13   that the Tesla and the Panamera are both

01:41:16   like four door cars, but shaped,

01:41:18   trying to be shaped like sporty cars.

01:41:21   Like, you know how the Tesla,

01:41:22   it doesn't look like an M5.

01:41:23   It is definitely more kind of like,

01:41:25   I'm a sporty car, but I have four doors.

01:41:29   How can we sort of make that look nice?

01:41:31   And Tesla does obviously a better job

01:41:32   than the Panamera does of it,

01:41:34   but they're both doing that type of thing.

01:41:36   And it's kind of, I feel like both of them

01:41:38   are very similar to Marco, like midlife crisis cars,

01:41:40   where, you know, that's why Marco's car is red, right?

01:41:43   where they don't want to feel like they have to get a four-door car, but they do have to get a four-door car,

01:41:47   so they go to the Porsche dealership to get a four-door car. And then modern version of that is,

01:41:51   "I have to get a four-door car because I have a family, but can I get this super fast electric one

01:41:55   that I still feel, and get it in red, and now I still feel like I've got a cool car?"

01:42:00   A couple things real quick. Number one, the Tesla is light years better looking than the Panamera.

01:42:06   The Panamera is just hideously ugly. Number two, so I was grabbing the Panamera link for the show notes

01:42:11   as we were recording, and I landed on the Panamera model page, which I'll put in the chat room,

01:42:16   there are—one, two, three, four, one, two, three—there are like, what is this,

01:42:20   14 different models of Panamera that run from $78,100 to $263,900 for the Panamera exclusive

01:42:30   series. Why would you want that? Who in the name of God would pay a quarter of a million dollars

01:42:37   for a Panamera.

01:42:38   - You haven't shopped for a Porsche recently.

01:42:40   Porsche measures their option packages in units of Hondas.

01:42:43   Well, this is a 700 unit package.

01:42:46   The Porsche options have always been obscene.

01:42:48   Their prices are, you know, they're expensive, right?

01:42:51   But any Porsche you take, you're like,

01:42:52   I bet I could add like $10,000 in options.

01:42:55   Like, no, one option is 10, 11, $12,000.

01:42:58   If you can add all the options,

01:42:59   your car suddenly costs $263,000.

01:43:02   And you're like, what happened?

01:43:03   I thought I was shopping for $80,000 four-door car.

01:43:06   And now, yeah, Porsche options, I mean,

01:43:09   I'm assuming Porsche options are actually rivaled

01:43:11   by Bentley and Rolls, but no one ever talks

01:43:13   about how much those options cost,

01:43:14   'cause once you're shopping for that,

01:43:16   people don't talk about money anymore.

01:43:17   But every time, for the past decade and a half,

01:43:20   ready review of Porsche, they're like,

01:43:22   oh, and Porsche's options, I don't know

01:43:23   what they're thinking, but if you want anything,

01:43:25   it's thousands and thousands of dollars.

01:43:27   Doesn't make any sense.

01:43:28   - There are 24, is that right?

01:43:31   No, 22 911s.

01:43:34   22!

01:43:35   How? How is that a thing?

01:43:37   - People like options.

01:43:38   I mean, if it makes sense, of course you like,

01:43:40   do you wanna pay?

01:43:41   I mean, like, all right, it's fine.

01:43:42   You're gonna pay $15,000 for the carbon ceramic brakes.

01:43:45   Do you feel like paying $7,000

01:43:47   for a different headliner on the interior?

01:43:49   All right, we'll charge you that.

01:43:50   Whatever, dude.

01:43:51   Like, how do you feel about special headlights for $3,000?

01:43:56   Yes? Okay, check that box.

01:43:57   - Sold.

01:43:58   - It adds up really fast.

01:44:00   - All right, I apologize. I derailed it.

01:44:01   So I just, I never looked at buying a Porsche,

01:44:04   not that I'm really looking at it now,

01:44:05   and I'm just flummoxed by how many options you have.

01:44:09   If you can't buy a freaking tube of toothpaste,

01:44:12   you'll never be able to buy a Porsche.

01:44:14   - Let me teach you a valuable lesson about this podcast.

01:44:17   Never apologize for derailing the show.

01:44:20   (laughing)

01:44:21   - Well, I can't trust your judgment on this issue.

01:44:24   Have you listened to Top Four?

01:44:25   It's a total train wreck.

01:44:27   A delightful train wreck, but a train wreck.

01:44:30   Which, by the way, listening to Jon try to keep you

01:44:33   within the guard rails on that episode was just wonderful.

01:44:36   It was hysterical.

01:44:37   - I felt like I kept things contained

01:44:39   better than average, I'm gonna say.

01:44:41   Better than the average show.

01:44:43   - Still not well.

01:44:44   All right, so anyway, we have totally derailed.

01:44:46   So tell us about the test.

01:44:47   How was the pickup experience?

01:44:49   You've only had it for like two days so far?

01:44:51   - Yeah. - How is it?

01:44:53   - So the pickup experience, so any,

01:44:55   I should just say, I mean, we've talked in the past

01:44:58   in "Neutral" and in the after shows here

01:45:01   about different car companies

01:45:02   having different dealer experiences.

01:45:05   And a lot of it just depends on your local dealers,

01:45:07   but sometimes it does seem like the way the company

01:45:09   is set up, certain companies have better or worse dealers

01:45:12   and dealer attitudes than others.

01:45:14   But Tesla, I've been to two different Tesla dealers

01:45:18   and talked to a few other people on the phone here and there

01:45:21   and they've all been awesome.

01:45:23   Like super low pressure.

01:45:25   I think the salespeople are not commissioned

01:45:28   and so I think that that contributes a lot

01:45:30   to the easier going nature of talking to them.

01:45:34   But overall just really positive experiences

01:45:38   dealing with Tesla so far.

01:45:39   Granted I haven't had to like you know get

01:45:41   tricky service or anything yet,

01:45:43   but I know some people who have had Teslas for a while

01:45:47   and they've all reported very positive things

01:45:49   about even the service and stuff like that.

01:45:51   So, so far incredibly positive experiences

01:45:54   dealing with them as a company.

01:45:56   There's no negotiation on the prices,

01:45:59   which also makes things a little bit nicer and simpler.

01:46:02   You literally order your car online.

01:46:04   You can call them and you can go into the showroom

01:46:07   and you can order it there if you want to,

01:46:08   but ordering it there is just you using a computer

01:46:11   with their public website on it

01:46:13   and you just place the order with them if you want to.

01:46:15   So it's refreshingly simple and nice

01:46:20   and everybody who works for Tesla who I've interacted with

01:46:24   seems like they were from California.

01:46:27   Super laid back, nice, trendy, super nice people.

01:46:32   So very positive experiences there.

01:46:36   The pickup was just like any other car pickup

01:46:38   where you pick it up, you sign some papers,

01:46:41   you transfer the license plate and registration.

01:46:43   - Oh, so that did work out.

01:46:45   - Yes, I got to keep my blue license plate,

01:46:47   my blue and white New York plate

01:46:48   instead of the ugly new yellow ones.

01:46:50   I've been, this is now the third car this plate will be on

01:46:54   because I refused to upgrade to the yellow ones

01:46:58   'cause they're hideous on every color of car.

01:47:00   - So it was just like any other car pickup,

01:47:02   you just walk down the stairs

01:47:03   and your car is on a rotating platform

01:47:05   with the battery connected through the floor on it.

01:47:07   It's just really just like,

01:47:08   and then you go outside and you're in a different country

01:47:10   and you drive on the road 140 miles an hour.

01:47:12   So pretty much like every other car pickup.

01:47:13   - Exactly like every other car pickup, yeah.

01:47:15   (laughing)

01:47:17   - I've re-listened to that,

01:47:18   partially because I think Underscored

01:47:20   said he had just re-listened to that episode of "Neutral"

01:47:23   and oh man, I felt so bad for Jon

01:47:25   because you really got kind of browbeat

01:47:28   into being on that with us,

01:47:29   but god, it was a fun episode and a fun trip.

01:47:32   But anyway.

01:47:33   - Yeah, yeah, so you know, they walked me through

01:47:35   like the features of the car and everything.

01:47:37   - Which you promptly forgot.

01:47:38   - I have actually read some of the manual.

01:47:41   I will have you know.

01:47:43   - More than five pages?

01:47:44   - He knows how to open the trunk at least.

01:47:46   - I read I think four pages of the manual

01:47:48   because a lot of the features of the car are not intuitive.

01:47:51   Like, for instance, like the rules of like when and how

01:47:54   it locks and unlocks is actually not obvious.

01:47:58   So I've had to look up things like,

01:48:01   oh so how do I turn it off if I'm sitting in it?

01:48:05   Like there's like a lot of things like that

01:48:07   that are not intuitive.

01:48:10   Anyway, so I actually have referred to the manual

01:48:14   a few times, but so you know, going over the car,

01:48:17   taking it out and everything, granted I'm only two days

01:48:19   into owning it as you said.

01:48:21   So take all of this with a grain of salt.

01:48:23   I might change my mind later, but at the moment,

01:48:26   I mentioned how sad I was to give up the M5,

01:48:30   but I'm not sad anymore.

01:48:33   Like once I got, I was very sad for like the two hours

01:48:36   between when I turned it in and when I picked up the Tesla,

01:48:39   and I really was worrying, like I wonder

01:48:41   if I made the wrong decision here.

01:48:43   - Really? - I really was, yeah.

01:48:46   And until I started driving the Tesla.

01:48:50   and it reminded me why I went to Tesla in the first place,

01:48:55   why I decided to make this move.

01:48:56   Never drive a Tesla if you don't intend to possibly buy one.

01:49:00   - Oh, truth. - Because when you drive it,

01:49:03   it really, I'm not gonna say it's disruptive

01:49:06   because that's an abused term and disruption

01:49:09   usually is involved with low-end disruption.

01:49:12   This is definitely not low-end disruption,

01:49:14   at least not yet, but it is transformative

01:49:18   in the sense that once you drive an all-electric car,

01:49:22   especially a good one like a Tesla,

01:49:24   but even the lower end all-electric cars

01:49:27   like the Chevy Volt and the Nissan Leaf

01:49:29   and stuff like that that are much more affordable,

01:49:31   even those have this property where--

01:49:34   - Chevy Volt's not all-electric.

01:49:36   - Sorry, the Bolt, and it doesn't matter.

01:49:37   The Leaf is the only one anybody buys, right?

01:49:39   Anyway, so all-electric cars have this property.

01:49:44   Once you drive it, it feels so different,

01:49:48   and in my opinion so much better than driving a gas car.

01:49:52   It makes gas cars seem like old clunkers

01:49:56   and it makes them seem irrelevant

01:49:58   to the point where now that I'm in the electric car mindset

01:50:03   and I'm feeling how they feel and how they drive

01:50:05   and seeing how they work and the advantages they have,

01:50:10   there is no gas car on the market that I want.

01:50:13   If BMW comes out with the next M5,

01:50:18   which is probably gonna have all-wheel drive

01:50:20   and probably coming out in a couple of years,

01:50:22   I don't think I'm going to care

01:50:24   because I don't want a gas car.

01:50:27   Once you get used to the benefits of electric,

01:50:30   there are still benefits to gas.

01:50:33   Long highway range is a big one.

01:50:35   That electric is not only not there yet,

01:50:37   but probably will never be there for maybe our lifetimes

01:50:41   or at least a big part of them

01:50:43   just because of the rate that battery technology improves.

01:50:46   But my God, it is so different.

01:50:49   It feels, acceleration-wise, like,

01:50:53   I got the 90D, not the fast, crazy fast one.

01:50:58   That's the P version, I didn't get those.

01:51:00   I feel like such a douche for even talking about this,

01:51:02   'cause I know these are very expensive cars

01:51:03   I'm talking about, but I don't know.

01:51:05   If you think I'm an asshole,

01:51:07   you probably stop listening by now.

01:51:08   If you haven't, stop now.

01:51:10   Sorry about that, but anyway.

01:51:12   So it feels, first of all, it feels like I'm driving a train

01:51:17   because trains are usually electric.

01:51:18   And like, I spent a lot of time on trains,

01:51:21   like in commuter rails and subways and everything.

01:51:23   And trains are electric, the way they accelerate,

01:51:27   it has a certain feel to it.

01:51:30   Electric cars accelerate like electric trains do,

01:51:32   like just like the torque curve,

01:51:34   the way they feel off the line, the way they sound even,

01:51:37   like it feels like I'm driving this incredibly smooth,

01:51:42   futuristic, awesomely powerful thing

01:51:45   in a way that gas cars, even very powerful gas cars,

01:51:49   just can't feel, like they just can't do that.

01:51:52   Even now buying like the middle of the road configuration

01:51:57   of the Tesla, it's so ridiculously good.

01:52:00   And it's so ridiculously fast,

01:52:01   I am so glad I didn't get the faster one.

01:52:03   Because the faster one is a big price jump

01:52:05   and a big hit to range for a difference of speed

01:52:09   that not only do I not need, but that I described

01:52:12   when we last talked about this as actually unpleasant to me.

01:52:15   Like it was actually too fast and kind of felt like

01:52:18   I was being punched in the face when a tester of that one.

01:52:21   So this is a really good configuration for me so far.

01:52:26   And you know, I haven't taken a big trip with it yet.

01:52:29   I haven't pulled up to like a full supercharger

01:52:32   and had to wait 40 minutes to even start my charge yet.

01:52:34   Like, I'm sure I'm going to have experiences with this car

01:52:37   over the next three years that I'm leasing it.

01:52:40   I'm sure I'm gonna have experiences that aren't all roses.

01:52:44   But the everyday driving around town,

01:52:46   which is what I do the vast majority of the time,

01:52:49   is just amazing in it so far.

01:52:51   It really is great.

01:52:53   I'm even sold on the touchscreen.

01:52:55   - Ah, I don't know about that.

01:52:56   - Again, ask me again in a few months.

01:52:58   Maybe these things will change.

01:53:00   But so many things, just the way it does things,

01:53:04   the advancements it has are so nice.

01:53:07   And the interior quality isn't as good as BMW.

01:53:11   The sheet metal isn't as good.

01:53:13   Like most of the car's other aspects,

01:53:16   besides the drivetrain, are actually a step down

01:53:20   from what BMW offers in their high-end configurations.

01:53:23   And I don't care.

01:53:24   Like that's how good the drivetrain is.

01:53:27   Like I just don't care about that step down.

01:53:30   And that's why I'm saying this is a truly transformative

01:53:33   slash disruptive because it makes you ignore the downsides

01:53:38   and not care about the deficiencies

01:53:40   because the core of it, the drivetrain, the feel,

01:53:44   the handling, it just feels so good.

01:53:47   It makes you forgive all the little nitpicks

01:53:52   that you might have.

01:53:54   - So what's your favorite thing so far?

01:53:56   - Just driving.

01:53:57   Like it's, I'm like, you know, I'm being stupid.

01:54:00   Like finding reason to go run stupid local errands,

01:54:02   like just to get me out of the house into the car again.

01:54:04   It just feels so good.

01:54:07   It's so incredibly smooth and immediate and direct feeling.

01:54:12   It's just ridiculously good.

01:54:16   The more time I spend in it, the more I like it,

01:54:19   the more I appreciate it.

01:54:20   - Underscore also has a 90D, if I'm not mistaken,

01:54:26   and he visited down here,

01:54:30   I think it was right after Thanksgiving, around Thanksgiving, sometime around then.

01:54:34   And I drove his car, which I think we briefly spoke about on the show actually, and it ruined

01:54:40   my car immediately.

01:54:41   I told you.

01:54:42   There are things that I don't like about it, but I'm sure if I had one I would suffer through

01:54:48   and learn to live with it.

01:54:50   I didn't care for the touchscreen, though it did make a lot more sense when I was in

01:54:53   the car and seeing all the things I could tweak and configure.

01:54:56   it did make a lot more sense than I would have expected. The regenerative braking is really

01:55:04   peculiar. I didn't really like it, but I wouldn't say I disliked it either. It was just very,

01:55:10   very different and weird. Well, that's also, that's an option you can turn down also. Yeah,

01:55:14   but I mean, at the cost of range, of course. A little bit. But yeah, well still. The things that

01:55:22   that that car can do though, both performance-wise and technology-wise, are tremendous.

01:55:30   Underscore was saying, if I recall correctly, that he had set up his car such that when

01:55:36   he pulls up to his house, it opens the garage.

01:55:39   Which is a totally Apple thing to do, right?

01:55:42   It has a GPS on it, it has a garage door opener on it.

01:55:46   Tell it, "This is my house, this is where I need to use the garage door," so just open

01:55:50   the damn garage.

01:55:51   It's such an obvious thing to do that I never thought of until he said, "Oh yeah,

01:55:56   it totally does that for me."

01:55:58   And I think he said you could even tell it to raise the suspension a little bit when

01:56:04   he's arriving at the house to give him a little extra room to go over the curb or whatever

01:56:09   it is, or the lip.

01:56:12   Stupid stuff like that, but really smart, you know what I mean?

01:56:16   And stuff like that, it was just so impressive.

01:56:18   And the fact that it had an app that didn't suck,

01:56:21   like I haven't been able to use the BMW Connect

01:56:24   or whatever it is app.

01:56:25   Well, it was comparatively less sucky than the BMW app

01:56:29   that I had used two years ago.

01:56:31   - Fortunately, there are third party apps

01:56:32   because they just reverse engineered the API

01:56:34   that the official app was calling.

01:56:36   - Oh, that's totally safe.

01:56:37   - Yeah, I mean, the API can't do anything harmful.

01:56:40   It's like it can't like stop the car or make it go.

01:56:42   It can just like, you know, it can like open the sunroof

01:56:45   and turn the heat on and stuff like that.

01:56:47   It's like, it's not that big of a deal.

01:56:48   But, wow, even, yeah, like, you know, simple things.

01:56:52   Like, as you said, like the garage door opening

01:56:55   and it closes when you leave, too.

01:56:56   Like, when you pull out of the driveway to leave,

01:56:58   it can close the garage for you.

01:57:00   And when you come back home, it opens it for you.

01:57:02   Yeah, you're right, stuff like that.

01:57:03   It's just really nice.

01:57:05   I mean, and even having, you know, the big touchscreen,

01:57:07   like one of the reasons I'm kinda converting

01:57:09   to the big touchscreen now and appreciating it,

01:57:11   is like, it makes certain things possible or better

01:57:14   that you wouldn't necessarily expect from a car.

01:57:15   For instance, it just shows a Google Maps view,

01:57:19   and you can turn it on satellite,

01:57:20   you can turn it on traffic overlays and everything.

01:57:22   So you're getting really well-reported

01:57:25   traffic overlay, traffic data.

01:57:27   I just leave the map on all the time now,

01:57:30   even when I'm doing local errands,

01:57:31   which is most of my driving,

01:57:32   because I have multiple routes I can use

01:57:35   to get to places I'm going,

01:57:36   and I can see the traffic on this giant map screen

01:57:40   of where I'm going without having to program

01:57:42   in a destination, without having to make a trip out of it

01:57:44   like GPS wise, I can just glance at the screen casually

01:57:48   and I can see, oh, that avenue over there

01:57:50   is all full of red, let me take the other way.

01:57:52   Just little stuff like that, the screen enables

01:57:56   little stuff like that, or even just because it's so tall,

01:57:59   it has these different modes where you can have

01:58:02   one app taking up the whole screen, or you can split it,

01:58:05   and you can have a top and a bottom app.

01:58:06   And it's such a large screen that you can have

01:58:11   navigation as one of those things,

01:58:13   and then the other one could be like the media player

01:58:15   or something else.

01:58:17   It's nice having all of that on one screen.

01:58:20   Whereas the other cars I've used,

01:58:22   they've had these much smaller system screens

01:58:24   where you kinda have to switch modes between different things

01:58:27   and then you gotta wait and it's kinda laggy sometimes.

01:58:31   And so, I mean, again, and the Tesla one is not perfect.

01:58:34   It isn't as fast as I think it should be

01:58:36   for a car of this caliber.

01:58:38   I think, I have to double check with this,

01:58:41   I think I hear a hard drive in there.

01:58:43   - Oh, interesting.

01:58:44   - As opposed to an SSD, I think I'm hearing,

01:58:46   like if I'm doing stuff in the car and it's parked,

01:58:48   like I was setting up the music system,

01:58:51   it was parked so everything was dead silent.

01:58:53   - I think they're just piping that in

01:58:54   to make you feel more comfortable.

01:58:55   - That's it, yep.

01:58:56   Fake hard drive sounds. - It's pre-recorded audio.

01:58:59   They know the age of the people who buy these things

01:59:01   and they want them to feel like they're in a familiar place

01:59:03   with spinning hard drives.

01:59:04   - Yeah, but overall, it is more responsive

01:59:08   than the BMW system was.

01:59:10   And it isn't as responsive as an iPad,

01:59:13   but it's not that far off,

01:59:16   and it's really, really quite nice.

01:59:18   Even simple things, like one of the little things

01:59:20   that I like when driving it,

01:59:22   first of all, when you stop it, it's dead silent.

01:59:24   And the whole car is incredibly quiet, which I love.

01:59:27   You know, coming from an M car

01:59:28   that's made artificially louder,

01:59:31   and it already is pretty loud to begin with,

01:59:34   that's a welcome change to have a quiet car for once.

01:59:37   Also, they have a cool hill hold feature

01:59:41   where every time you stop the car fully, by default,

01:59:46   it has a hill hold, so it holds the brake for you

01:59:48   and shows a little H on the dashboard

01:59:50   when you know it's happening.

01:59:52   So, you stop at a traffic light

01:59:55   and then you can just take your foot off the brake pedal

01:59:57   for the entire time you're waiting.

01:59:58   - That's weird.

02:00:00   - Well, the whole car is weird,

02:00:01   but at first, it seems weird

02:00:04   and then you start playing with it

02:00:06   and you're like, oh, that's really nice, actually.

02:00:10   It's just simple things.

02:00:12   Like it's, you know, people always ask, you know,

02:00:14   so far about the autopilot stuff and the auto drive

02:00:16   and the summoning and everything.

02:00:18   And I did autopilot on the test drive.

02:00:21   I haven't done summoning or anything else

02:00:23   and I'm probably not gonna use these things a lot.

02:00:25   I'm a little bit scared to use a beta feature

02:00:29   to pull my brand new car in and out of my very tight garage.

02:00:33   - Oh, come on.

02:00:34   probably not going to be doing a lot of that. Speaking of, you got rid of that

02:00:38   friggin M5 and you and I never did a launch control start. God, I'm so angry

02:00:44   right now. I completely forgot about that. I didn't forget about that and I

02:00:47   actually considered doing one on the day I turned it in like just that morning

02:00:50   but... Why wouldn't you have? Because I had three-year-old tires and it was raining.

02:00:56   I was like, you know, I don't think... because even even a regular, even a non launch controlled start in

02:01:04   that car, the rear tires would just spin. I remember. I'm so disappointed in you right

02:01:10   now. I'm not even mad. I'm just disappointed. Of course.

02:01:14   Well, that's okay, though. I'm really curious to see how this goes a couple of different

02:01:22   times. I'm curious to see how this goes the next time you go upstate, either to your family

02:01:28   or TIFF's family, because TIFF's family is like right on the ragged edge of your available

02:01:33   range, right?

02:01:34   - So the sure answer is I don't know yet.

02:01:37   I mean, by like the rated range,

02:01:39   which of course nobody actually achieves,

02:01:41   there's tons of headroom.

02:01:43   - Okay.

02:01:44   - By the actual range driven,

02:01:46   it seems as though I will probably have enough range

02:01:49   to get there and back on one charge,

02:01:51   but without a lot of headroom,

02:01:52   so I probably won't wanna do that.

02:01:54   So I will probably be plugging in there.

02:01:58   They have, surprisingly, an extra dryer outlet

02:02:02   which I know most people don't have,

02:02:05   but they happen to have one,

02:02:06   'cause it's upstate and it's crazy up there.

02:02:08   So they have an extra dryer outlet

02:02:10   that is within close distance of where I could park.

02:02:14   So I'll probably plug in there with an adapter.

02:02:16   But you know, it's fine.

02:02:19   And all the rest of the time of my life,

02:02:22   I never have to go to a gas station again.

02:02:24   - That's true, but then if you come visit us,

02:02:27   that's something like a 400 mile drive,

02:02:29   which you're just not gonna be able to do on one charge.

02:02:32   And so then you're gonna have to do the supercharger dance.

02:02:34   Now, to be fair, the superchargers started, I think,

02:02:38   on the 95 corridor, which is the road

02:02:41   that runs almost directly between you and I.

02:02:45   So if you're gonna choose a place

02:02:46   to test out the superchargers,

02:02:49   it's a pretty good place to do it,

02:02:50   'cause I mean, they have plenty of them.

02:02:52   But it's still a fairly considerable distance

02:02:55   and long enough that you would probably have to stop

02:02:57   once, if not twice.

02:02:59   adding a not inconsiderable amount of time

02:03:03   to an already like six to eight hour trip to 10,

02:03:05   depending on what time you're going.

02:03:07   So I'm curious to see if you guys

02:03:10   have a reason to visit again.

02:03:11   Like, I don't know, maybe if Top Gear

02:03:13   or something similar to Top Gear comes out in the fall.

02:03:16   I'm curious to see how that trip goes.

02:03:19   - Yeah, me too.

02:03:19   I mean, it could be totally fine.

02:03:22   It could make us think, oh, you know what?

02:03:24   We should bring a gas car next time we come down here.

02:03:26   Or, I mean,

02:03:28   every time I drive to your house,

02:03:29   I regret some part of the drive.

02:03:31   Because there is no good way to drive to your house

02:03:35   and back without hitting some kind of

02:03:37   massive traffic problem.

02:03:39   - Well, I found a way that's,

02:03:42   if not good, it's not bad at the very least.

02:03:47   At the worst, it's meh, which is an improvement

02:03:49   because I tell you what, the Washington corridor on I-95,

02:03:53   at any time when any human being on the planet

02:03:56   could possibly be awake is a disaster. So if you avoid that whole corridor, which I

02:04:02   think you guys took that route once, and then I think you ended up in like some other disaster

02:04:06   by pure dumb luck, bad luck. But anyways, there are ways to avoid the bad spots, but

02:04:12   you're still, it's a crapshoot no matter what. I don't know, I've been talking a lot, you've

02:04:17   been talking a lot, Jon, what are your thoughts and questions?

02:04:19   Jon Streeter Two days in, I don't know. I mean, I really

02:04:21   feel like he does have to live with it longer. Like, especially, especially the touchscreen

02:04:25   stuff, because you've articulated the advantages of that very well, and I totally see all those

02:04:31   advantages, but I still just wonder about the minute extra hassle of adjusting the temperature

02:04:37   by having to change a screen before you can hit a button, as opposed to a button that's

02:04:40   always there. I'm annoyed by the physical buttons in my accord, and those are physical

02:04:45   buttons. I'm just annoyed by the fact that they're bad physical buttons. If I had to

02:04:48   change a screen to get to it, like, yeah, I don't know.

02:04:52   And to be fair, I mean first of all, this is kind of like, you know, transmissions that

02:04:57   were bad always annoyed me.

02:04:59   And now I just don't have one and it's fine.

02:05:03   Maybe having no buttons for you is better than having bad buttons.

02:05:07   If you're not a climate control micromanager like I am, you won't follow you as much.

02:05:11   I'm not a climate control micromanager.

02:05:13   I tend to just like set it and forget it, like the TV commercials always say.

02:05:17   Like you know, I tend to not play with it very often.

02:05:22   Also, to be fair, Tesla climate controls are always on screen and they're always in the

02:05:26   same spot.

02:05:27   They're always on that bottom row.

02:05:29   So you don't have to change modes, they're always there.

02:05:32   So if you do want to make a quick little adjustment, you can and you don't have to change screens.

02:05:38   That being said, there are actually a good number of buttons.

02:05:42   All around the wheel, there's levers and buttons all over the steering wheel.

02:05:46   And some of them are even customizable.

02:05:47   You can remap them to do certain things.

02:05:49   So actually, I found, I was worried

02:05:52   about the cruise control controls.

02:05:54   'Cause most good cruise controls,

02:05:57   you can manually set, you can raise it up and down

02:06:00   by one mile per hour or five miles per hour

02:06:02   by certain gestures or certain pushings of levers.

02:06:05   Tesla offers that too.

02:06:06   They have a lever on the side of the steering wheel.

02:06:09   That's the cruise control lever.

02:06:10   It's actually easier than BMW

02:06:11   because most other cars you have to turn the cruise control

02:06:15   on as an explicit action, and it's off by default

02:06:18   whenever you turn the car on.

02:06:19   With Tesla, it's always available,

02:06:20   you just hit it and it sets.

02:06:22   It's like you actually save a step, stuff like that.

02:06:25   It's actually surprisingly well designed,

02:06:29   even in its physical controls,

02:06:31   for a car that appears at first glance

02:06:34   to not have any physical controls.

02:06:36   - So at least you have the option of upgrading your controls.

02:06:38   Like the thing that annoys me the most,

02:06:40   the biggest downgrade in Honda's climate controls

02:06:42   and the series of Hondas that I've had

02:06:44   is the switch from individual buttons

02:06:48   for modes in terms of top vent, bottom vent,

02:06:51   you know, feet and defogger, you know,

02:06:55   like all the different modes of how air can come out

02:06:57   of the various vents in your car,

02:06:58   the switch from having a dedicated button

02:07:00   for every single one of those

02:07:01   to a single button that cycles through them.

02:07:03   Cycling through is the worst.

02:07:05   Nobody wants that.

02:07:06   So on your Tesla,

02:07:08   does it have a mode switch to cycle through the modes

02:07:11   or does it have separate buttons for all of them?

02:07:13   - You don't even know yet.

02:07:14   I don't, yeah, I don't really know yet.

02:07:15   - I mean, the good thing is that,

02:07:18   The bad thing is that they're not real buttons,

02:07:19   they're just a bunch of things on a screen

02:07:20   that it's hard to find if you're not looking.

02:07:22   The good thing is that if they don't have a good setup,

02:07:23   you can just wait for the next software update

02:07:25   and there's a chance that they will change,

02:07:26   whereas my buttons are never gonna get better.

02:07:27   (laughing)

02:07:30   - Oh, that's funny.

02:07:31   I don't know, it's interesting to see

02:07:33   what you think of this after a while.

02:07:36   Speaking of the climate control though,

02:07:39   is there an all mode?

02:07:40   - Yes, there is.

02:07:41   - That you're missing from the M5?

02:07:43   - No, the M5 had it.

02:07:44   - It did?

02:07:45   BMW 5 Series and the older 3 Series have all modes.

02:07:49   - Mine does.

02:07:50   - Yeah, yours does.

02:07:51   The current 3 and 4 Series does not have an all button.

02:07:54   So with the current 3 and 4 Series BMWs,

02:07:57   if you want to raise the temperature of the whole car

02:07:59   by one degree, you have to turn two different knobs once.

02:08:01   - I like the idea of whoever came up with that,

02:08:04   whoever marketing person came up with,

02:08:06   like passenger driver split climate control

02:08:08   and then front and rear split climate control,

02:08:10   the same person who came up with

02:08:11   non-smoking sections in restaurants.

02:08:13   - Yeah, exactly.

02:08:13   - You're all in the same air.

02:08:14   the same air guys like there's a limit I know you know someone can feel better

02:08:18   with warm air blowing on them versus cold air blowing them but bottom line

02:08:20   that's not a big space you're all in the same car well but it's just it's just

02:08:25   crazy making to me that BMW's current three and four series yeah yeah that's

02:08:29   worse that's that's like a fallout of like so someone came up with this

02:08:32   marketing feature that they made people feel like it sounds oh it sounds good

02:08:35   you know we're always different temperatures and this will fix things

02:08:37   when it really won't fix them and then on top of that to to build a mis feature

02:08:41   that's like not only did we make the silly feature but even if you don't want

02:08:44   it now it adds complication to what used to be a simple thing right like now you

02:08:48   have to adjust temperature twice every single time like that's crazy that's

02:08:52   like at that point why not just have single zone climate control at that

02:08:55   point yeah my car this is this is my first car to have dual zone climate

02:09:00   control my current Honda is the first I mean if I could have bought it without

02:09:02   it would have but it has come standard and it annoys me because I a I never

02:09:06   want to use it mostly because I'm usually the only person driving the car

02:09:09   and B the stupid button for in Honda it's it's not an all button it's a sync

02:09:15   button basically when sync is on everything you do to the climate control

02:09:18   affects the whole car which is how it should be all the time right and when I

02:09:22   go for other buttons on this completely smooth seemingly featureless expansive

02:09:27   buttons that are defined by slices into the smooth featureless expanse you know

02:09:32   if I'm wearing gloves or whatever I accidentally bumped the sync button and

02:09:35   don't notice until like a day later when I realize I've been adjusting the

02:09:37   temperature just for quote unquote my side of the car and the other side of

02:09:41   the car is is still set to you know totally the wrong temperature and it's

02:09:46   terrible I will tell you what though my Subaru was the first car I had a dual

02:09:51   zone climate and I love it because Aaron is usually cold and I am usually warm

02:09:57   and being able to adjust each independently is wonderful however the

02:10:04   Subaru did not have an all button and my life improved dramatically when I bought the BMW

02:10:10   if for no other reason than because of the all button because then I

02:10:14   Actually tended to micromanage a lot more in the Subaru anyway, but anytime I adjust the air in these in the BMW

02:10:21   I just have to spin one little spinner one or two notches and they're delightful little notches

02:10:26   They're really crisp really well built really well done as only the Germans and probably the Japanese can

02:10:33   It's so much better that way, but I there's you could not pay me enough money to buy a car with one zone climate control

02:10:39   That that is insanity to my eyes. I guarantee you John have a problem with the knob feel somewhere

02:10:44   Oh, I know. Well, I would what I would kill for a knob is another downgrade of the Accord

02:10:48   I don't have enough I have up and down buttons huge up and down buttons that are like and the same type of thing

02:10:55   There's a little bit more of a division between them

02:10:56   But like it's so clearly that like they designed these buttons to look nice and not to be

02:11:01   distinguishable as individual buttons and of all the things like I'm glad I have a knob for

02:11:05   Volume although honestly, I just use a steering wheel controls for mostly for that which is not a knob

02:11:09   But you know a knob for fan speed please instead of that's the worst

02:11:14   That's like the arrow keys and the old Apple

02:11:15   Remember the old Apple keyboard layouts where they didn't have the inverted T even the half size one instead

02:11:20   They had four keys next to each other that was like

02:11:22   Right up down well, so this is the this is the microcosm

02:11:27   I have up and down fan speed buttons is up on the left or is down on the left

02:11:32   It's completely arbitrary. It was just like I have a picture in my head

02:11:35   I don't even know which one it is now

02:11:36   But every time I've got to think about it and fumble around and figure it out

02:11:39   I would love a knob for that and I would love a knob for temperature instead of a

02:11:42   Granted very large like red upward facing arrow button and blue downward facing arrow button for temperature

02:11:48   My kingdom for a knob two knobs

02:11:51   [DOOR CLOSING]

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