ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► You ever gone back recently to a trackpad that actually has a button, like a separate button area that you can't just click the whole thing you ever used?

00:00:06 ◼   ► Well, the one that we had of that, the non-unibody MacBook Pro, the button had been so filled with child filth that it would like not click down or like it stuck down.

00:00:17 ◼   ► Like it physically would no longer. Yeah. So I guess that won't happen with the forestretch. I guess that'll just get at like an even crust of disgustingness. Kids are gross, man.

00:00:27 ◼   ► So we should do a little bit of follow up.

00:00:29 ◼   ► And one of you wants to talk about cellular service on Macs.

00:00:33 ◼   ► A couple of listeners gave us this.

00:00:35 ◼   ► We talked a lot about the Mac last show, the viability of the Mac,

00:00:39 ◼   ► whether it's going to be replaced by the iPad, if it's a dead platform, all that stuff.

00:00:43 ◼   ► And multiple people asked us about a topic that has come up on the show before,

00:00:49 ◼   ► but didn't come up on the last episode.

00:00:51 ◼   ► It's related to the question of, and I think Casey maybe was talking about this,

00:00:54 ◼   ► is how you can go anywhere with an iPad and do anything,

00:00:58 ◼   ► because it's got a cellular connection, and it's got Wi-Fi,

00:01:01 ◼   ► and it's kind of all in one.

00:01:02 ◼   ► And yeah, if you have a laptop, you can tether it,

00:01:03 ◼   ► but then you also need your phone,

00:01:04 ◼   ► and you're draining your phone's battery.

00:01:06 ◼   ► And we didn't take the next step and talk about the topic,

00:01:09 ◼   ► the evergreen topic of why do Macs

00:01:12 ◼   ► not have cellular connections?

00:01:14 ◼   ► What is it like?

00:01:15 ◼   ► Because a lot of people think that would make

00:01:18 ◼   ► the Mac a stronger competitor to even the pro iPads,

00:01:21 ◼   ► especially now that the Macs are very small.

00:01:22 ◼   ► You could have a MacBook one second-generation MacBook one with better battery life a faster CPU

00:01:27 ◼   ► and a cellular connection that would surely give a

00:01:32 ◼   ► An iPad Pro or run for its money as that single lightweight machine that you can take everywhere and work from anywhere with

00:01:40 ◼   ► Why is it the max?

00:01:42 ◼   ► After all this time don't have cellular and I seem to recall last time we talked about it

00:01:46 ◼   ► We didn't really we had some vague ideas, but at this point years later

00:01:51 ◼   ► I think most are vague ideas of like well they want to reserve that for the phone

00:01:55 ◼   ► And I think you should use your phone to the it's like now now

00:01:57 ◼   ► What's the excuse so I think that the problem Apple has with putting?

00:02:01 ◼   ► Cellulent modem in and in a MacBook or MacBook Pro is twofold one

00:02:06 ◼   ► It's more things to take up space and actually come to think of a battery life

00:02:11 ◼   ► You know things have to get ever thinner or so we seem to think anyway

00:02:15 ◼   ► And two why would you not have an iPhone with you you have an iPhone you have a way to test

00:02:21 ◼   ► tether it to your Mac, why would you ever need an onboard connection on your Mac?

00:02:25 ◼   ► Now of course this argument falls completely on its face when you point out, well, there's

00:02:30 ◼   ► iPads with cellular connections.

00:02:31 ◼   ► In fact, Casey, you have an iPad with a cellular connection.

00:02:35 ◼   ► And I have an iPad with a cellular connection because I don't want to have to tether to

00:02:38 ◼   ► my phone anytime I want to get online outside of the house, not when I'm not near Wi-Fi.

00:02:43 ◼   ► So I don't know that I would buy a Mac that had a cellular connection, but it certainly

00:02:48 ◼   ► is appealing and it certainly would make me think twice about an iPad Pro if I was trying

00:02:55 ◼   ► to like decide between an iPad Pro with cellular or say a MacBook One with cellular. I don't

00:03:00 ◼   ► know, Marco, how do you think about it?

00:03:02 ◼   ► >> I would love a MacBook with cellular. I would absolutely love it. But as we discussed,

00:03:08 ◼   ► you know, years ago when we first covered this topic, I think nothing has really changed

00:03:11 ◼   ► and the way that the software environment on the Mac is designed in most cases, most

00:03:18 ◼   ► Most of the apps are designed, the system services

00:03:19 ◼   ► are designed to assume they are on WiFi all the time

00:03:23 ◼   ► and to assume they can use large amounts of bandwidth.

00:03:26 ◼   ► The system updater that could download an update

00:03:29 ◼   ► that's hundreds of megs, iTunes that can background

00:03:31 ◼   ► download new episodes of TV shows that you buy,

00:03:34 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:03:35 ◼   ► And, granted, a lot of these things are things

00:03:36 ◼   ► that are maybe fading out of favor, but they still happen.

00:03:39 ◼   ► You have all sorts of software updates happening

00:03:42 ◼   ► all the time in the background automatically,

00:03:44 ◼   ► and not just from Apple.

00:03:45 ◼   ► it could be Adobe's updater and everything too.

00:03:48 ◼   ► There's so much stuff in the Mac environment

00:03:52 ◼   ► that assumes that if it has a connection,

00:03:56 ◼   ► it can download large chunks of data

00:03:57 ◼   ► in the hundreds of megs range.

00:03:59 ◼   ► And there was change in the APIs,

00:04:03 ◼   ► I think with Mountain Lion,

00:04:04 ◼   ► I think it was around Mountain Lion time,

00:04:06 ◼   ► when they moved to NSURL session,

00:04:09 ◼   ► where they unified the API between iOS and Mac,

00:04:13 ◼   ► and NSURLSession has these global flags on sessions

00:04:16 ◼   ► where you can say, on any connection I run in this session,

00:04:20 ◼   ► allow or don't allow cellular access.

00:04:23 ◼   ► So if the connection is cellular, you as the app maker

00:04:26 ◼   ► could kind of opt out of using it or opt into using it

00:04:29 ◼   ► if you wanted to.

00:04:31 ◼   ► So you could say, if something is important,

00:04:34 ◼   ► like if you open up a Twitter app

00:04:35 ◼   ► and you're trying to fetch the timeline,

00:04:37 ◼   ► use cellular data for that,

00:04:39 ◼   ► 'cause that's probably what the user wants.

00:04:40 ◼   ► But if you're checking a background update

00:04:42 ◼   ► if there's any updates to your app, if you're Adobe,

00:04:45 ◼   ► then maybe wait until WiFi for that.

00:04:48 ◼   ► So that system's been there for a few years,

00:04:50 ◼   ► but the reality is I don't think any apps

00:04:53 ◼   ► meaningfully are really using it,

00:04:54 ◼   ► especially since there's no reason for them to use it

00:04:56 ◼   ► because there are no cellular Macs.

00:04:58 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:04:59 ◼   ► So unfortunately, I just think the software environment

00:05:03 ◼   ► is so wasteful of data by default

00:05:06 ◼   ► that I think it would just result in way too much data usage

00:05:09 ◼   ► and I think Apple probably noticed that too.

00:05:12 ◼   ► And also, on iOS, you have the App Store and App Review

00:05:16 ◼   ► to enforce that and to monitor that.

00:05:18 ◼   ► App Review does monitor for excessive bandwidth usage.

00:05:21 ◼   ► They have certain metrics like you can't use

00:05:23 ◼   ► more than X megabytes and X minutes

00:05:25 ◼   ► unless the user's streaming media or something like that.

00:05:27 ◼   ► There are certain limits that they at least

00:05:29 ◼   ► used to monitor for, they probably still do.

00:05:31 ◼   ► Anyway, all that is to say that on the Mac

00:05:34 ◼   ► you don't really have the software environment

00:05:36 ◼   ► conducive to sipping data carefully when you're on cellular.

00:05:41 ◼   ► - You know, it's funny you bring that up.

00:05:43 ◼   ► I agree with you, but have you used Trip Mode?

00:05:46 ◼   ► Have you heard about this?

00:05:47 ◼   ► - I haven't.

00:05:48 ◼   ► Is that some kind of like little firewall thing,

00:05:49 ◼   ► like little snitch or what?

00:05:51 ◼   ► - Sort of kinda.

00:05:52 ◼   ► I think that it might have been Jason Snell

00:05:54 ◼   ► that turned me onto this.

00:05:55 ◼   ► I forget exactly who it was,

00:05:56 ◼   ► but the tagline for this app is your mobile data savior,

00:06:01 ◼   ► and it is not only for the Mac, it also works on Windows.

00:06:04 ◼   ► And what it basically does is when it detects that you're tethered or on some other sort

00:06:11 ◼   ► of low bandwidth connection, it will flip into a different mode where it will prevent

00:06:18 ◼   ► every app from getting to the internet except the ones you whitelist.

00:06:22 ◼   ► And it'll also keep track of how much data each of these apps is using.

00:06:26 ◼   ► And so I have this installed on my laptop because on the rare occasions that I do tether,

00:06:33 ◼   ► Even though I have a crud load of data, way more than I would ever use in a month, I still

00:06:37 ◼   ► want to be sure that I'm not doing something like, I don't know, downloading an episode

00:06:40 ◼   ► of Mad Men.

00:06:41 ◼   ► Right, Marco?

00:06:42 ◼   ► Mmm.

00:06:43 ◼   ► See, I don't buy any of these excuses because we're so much farther down the road.

00:06:48 ◼   ► Like, in the beginning, when, you know, cellular was just coming to iPads and Apple was first

00:06:53 ◼   ► making iPhones, sure, but as Marco pointed out, they added this, the beginnings of these

00:06:57 ◼   ► APIs a long time ago.

00:06:59 ◼   ► It's a problem for Apple to solve for sure,

00:07:01 ◼   ► but it can be solved.

00:07:02 ◼   ► Like it's all it takes is some new software

00:07:05 ◼   ► and you know, like the trip mode thing is a great example.

00:07:09 ◼   ► Like they're not even the OS maker.

00:07:10 ◼   ► Apple could implement something like that

00:07:12 ◼   ► or a new set of APIs or make it opt in

00:07:14 ◼   ► or like this is their problem to solve.

00:07:15 ◼   ► Same thing with space in the case,

00:07:17 ◼   ► same thing with battery life.

00:07:18 ◼   ► Like we have the technology, we can rebuild it.

00:07:22 ◼   ► Like this is a thing that we could actually do.

00:07:25 ◼   ► And you say, oh, but it's so hard,

00:07:26 ◼   ► it's gonna take a long time.

00:07:27 ◼   ► Yeah, but it's been a long time.

00:07:29 ◼   ► And so it was like, have you been working on this

00:07:31 ◼   ► for three years?

00:07:32 ◼   ► Or are you just like, well, it'll always be impossible

00:07:35 ◼   ► and we should never even try it.

00:07:36 ◼   ► 'Cause it just, every time it comes up, we all say,

00:07:40 ◼   ► not that they all have to have cellular, right?

00:07:42 ◼   ► But one model, pick one model to be like the,

00:07:46 ◼   ► bring this Mac everywhere with you

00:07:48 ◼   ► and you will be able to get online everywhere.

00:07:50 ◼   ► And we know most people aren't gonna buy it

00:07:52 ◼   ► 'cause who wants to pay for, just like people,

00:07:54 ◼   ► most people don't buy cellular iPads

00:07:55 ◼   ► 'cause who wants to pay for another cell connection

00:07:57 ◼   ► or whatever, right?

00:07:59 ◼   ► But surely it has enough utility

00:08:03 ◼   ► that if they were paying more attention to the Mac line,

00:08:05 ◼   ► they would say, we can sell this.

00:08:08 ◼   ► This is a value add feature.

00:08:09 ◼   ► People will pay more for it.

00:08:11 ◼   ► It will make the product more attractive.

00:08:13 ◼   ► Would they sell more cellular Macs percentage wise

00:08:16 ◼   ► than they do cellular iPads?

00:08:18 ◼   ► Probably not.

00:08:19 ◼   ► It would probably be less than,

00:08:20 ◼   ► I bet the percentage of cellular iPads is super low anyway,

00:08:22 ◼   ► but they keep making them

00:08:23 ◼   ► because for the people who use them, they love them.

00:08:26 ◼   ► Imagine if you said, you know what,

00:08:27 ◼   ► iPads aren't gonna have cellular anymore,

00:08:28 ◼   ► just tell it to your phone.

00:08:29 ◼   ► People would be pissed because they're used to that feature.

00:08:33 ◼   ► And it took a lot to get, you know,

00:08:36 ◼   ► the cell phone feature on iPads and an iOS working

00:08:38 ◼   ► with all these different APIs.

00:08:39 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:08:40 ◼   ► I feel like after so many years,

00:08:42 ◼   ► any excuse you had about how difficult it might be,

00:08:45 ◼   ► it now changes into an excuse of like,

00:08:48 ◼   ► I guess you just didn't decide it was important

00:08:49 ◼   ► because now enough time has passed

00:08:51 ◼   ► that if you had decided it was important,

00:08:52 ◼   ► we'd be three years into the transition period

00:08:54 ◼   ► and we'd be well on our way to it being a thing.

00:08:57 ◼   ► And when they did that new API, I thought,

00:08:59 ◼   ► oh, this is the beginning, like a few more years

00:09:01 ◼   ► and then they'll have this rolled out.

00:09:02 ◼   ► But I guess they just don't think there's enough

00:09:06 ◼   ► of a market for it to justify all the time

00:09:10 ◼   ► and expense of changing the APIs and everything like that.

00:09:12 ◼   ► I don't know, it just seems like another missed opportunity

00:09:15 ◼   ► on the Mac, where if the Mac was selling much better

00:09:17 ◼   ► and making them much more money

00:09:18 ◼   ► or had more growth potential or some combination of those,

00:09:21 ◼   ► this would be an obvious thing.

00:09:23 ◼   ► In the same way that larger iPads and a stylus

00:09:25 ◼   ► obvious in iPads, but Apple didn't pull the trigger on that for many, many years.

00:09:30 ◼   ► And the iPad—Apple certainly thinks the iPad has more growth potential than the Mac,

00:09:33 ◼   ► it seems.

00:09:34 ◼   ► So anyway, I'm sad that there's still no cellular Macs, although I don't expect any at the

00:09:39 ◼   ► upcoming Apple event, which we'll talk about a little later.

00:09:41 ◼   ► Yeah, and real-time follow-up from the chat room, from the white box in the chat room.

00:09:46 ◼   ► This person reminded me of the photos of the prototype MacBook Pro with an integrated 3G

00:09:52 ◼   ► cellular modem.

00:09:53 ◼   ► for MacRumors in 2011.

00:09:55 ◼   ► And it's a really kind of weird looking,

00:09:58 ◼   ► it looks like a MacBook Pro,

00:09:59 ◼   ► but it has like an extendable antenna

00:10:01 ◼   ► on the side of the screen.

00:10:02 ◼   ► We'll put a link in the show notes.

00:10:03 ◼   ► - You know, I've been using tethering on laptops

00:10:07 ◼   ► while traveling for 10 years now, literally.

00:10:11 ◼   ► Like I was going through pictures earlier.

00:10:13 ◼   ► I'm going to Tumblr tomorrow

00:10:15 ◼   ► to kind of give a quick little talk about the history,

00:10:17 ◼   ► and I was going through pictures.

00:10:18 ◼   ► And literally 10 years ago, I have a picture of me

00:10:21 ◼   ► using a MacBook with a cellular modem plugged into the side of it, a little USB thing. And

00:10:28 ◼   ► before that I was using Bluetooth tethering with my old Motorola flip phone. And tethering

00:10:33 ◼   ► is awesome on laptops. If you have a laptop, you probably want this if you ever use it

00:10:38 ◼   ► out and about. If you ever use it while traveling or if you work in coffee shops or whatever.

00:10:42 ◼   ► The dream of ubiquitous Wi-Fi never really came true. Everyone thought that cities would

00:10:46 ◼   ► just be covered in Wi-Fi and everywhere you went there was Wi-Fi. It turns out maybe 20%

00:10:50 ◼   ► maybe 20% of the places you go there's Wi-Fi,

00:10:52 ◼   ► and it might suck and it might be insecure,

00:10:54 ◼   ► which is a big problem these days,

00:10:56 ◼   ► and it might be slow, it might be metered,

00:10:58 ◼   ► but the dream of this free, ubiquitous, everywhere coverage

00:11:03 ◼   ► and no security problems and always fast Wi-Fi

00:11:06 ◼   ► just never came true.

00:11:07 ◼   ► There's so many reasons to tether

00:11:09 ◼   ► and to use your own cellular connections,

00:11:12 ◼   ► and as time goes on, those reasons just increase

00:11:15 ◼   ► as we get more and more mobile.

00:11:17 ◼   ► Laptops keep getting smaller and even more compelling

00:11:19 ◼   ► to bring with you if you're going somewhere

00:11:21 ◼   ► and you wanna get something done on a laptop.

00:11:23 ◼   ► Especially like you look at the MacBook One

00:11:25 ◼   ► or the upcoming Skylake MacBook Pros,

00:11:27 ◼   ► which we'll talk about soon.

00:11:29 ◼   ► These things keep getting smaller and better

00:11:31 ◼   ► and cellular connections keep getting faster

00:11:34 ◼   ► and we do have data caps these days,

00:11:37 ◼   ► but we also have now these pooled data plans

00:11:39 ◼   ► where you can add another device for 20 bucks a month.

00:11:43 ◼   ► Back 10 years ago, I was paying 60 bucks a month

00:11:45 ◼   ► just for that cell modem.

00:11:46 ◼   ► And now you can get 'em for 20 bucks a month,

00:11:48 ◼   ► just add it to your existing plan or whatever.

00:11:50 ◼   ► So it seems like this would be the time to do that

00:11:53 ◼   ► if for some reason that time hasn't come yet,

00:11:56 ◼   ► might as well do it now, right?

00:11:57 ◼   ► But it just does seem like Apple doesn't care

00:11:59 ◼   ► and it seems like this is something they,

00:12:02 ◼   ► they obviously did prototype it,

00:12:03 ◼   ► they obviously decided not to do it

00:12:05 ◼   ► and you know, John, I think you're right.

00:12:06 ◼   ► Like if they wanted to do this on the Mac, they could.

00:12:10 ◼   ► The fact is, you know, the software environment

00:12:12 ◼   ► isn't there for it now, but yeah,

00:12:14 ◼   ► they've had 10 years to work on it

00:12:16 ◼   ► and they pretty much haven't.

00:12:18 ◼   ► So that does make me sad, and I will keep tethering,

00:12:22 ◼   ► and it just feels like such a weird hack to tether,

00:12:26 ◼   ► 'cause tethering doesn't actually work that well

00:12:29 ◼   ► in practice.

00:12:30 ◼   ► Once you plug in, it's fine,

00:12:32 ◼   ► but if you're doing anything besides a USB connection,

00:12:35 ◼   ► it is always a little bit flaky.

00:12:37 ◼   ► Plus, not to mention, then it drains your phone battery.

00:12:39 ◼   ► So there's so many reasons not to tether,

00:12:43 ◼   ► or to tether over cable only, which is clunky.

00:12:46 ◼   ► So it does make me sad that we probably won't see this from Macs because I think if they

00:12:51 ◼   ► can justify it for the iPad, might as well do it for Macs too.

00:12:56 ◼   ► Well, all those prototypes that they made, you know, the 2011 pictures or whatever, like

00:13:00 ◼   ► what they learned from those first efforts is all the things we talked about, like, "Oh,

00:13:03 ◼   ► it uses a lot of data," or "Our environment is not set up for this," and "It drains

00:13:07 ◼   ► our battery more," and whatever.

00:13:09 ◼   ► And all that does is let you know how much is it—what is it going to take to do this?

00:13:13 ◼   ► And then they do the calculation.

00:13:14 ◼   ► what it's going to take, this is the potential upside, and they just keep saying no. And, you

00:13:18 ◼   ► know, and again, like I said, if the max sold more, there was more of an upside. If they felt

00:13:22 ◼   ► like there was more demand, like a million combinations, because you could say, oh,

00:13:25 ◼   ► if there was more demand, they would do it. But also, if they sold 20 times as many max,

00:13:28 ◼   ► because that would increase the number of, assuming the demand is proportional, right,

00:13:32 ◼   ► then that would, you know, there's just so many factors that are working against them doing it.

00:13:35 ◼   ► But the longer time goes on, the more it kind of stands out to me as a weirdness, because

00:13:41 ◼   ► Eventually, you would hope that the battery cost and the size cost or whatever of doing

00:13:47 ◼   ► cellular would be, they're decreasing as a proportion of the overall available, you know,

00:13:52 ◼   ► I mean I guess you can't decrease transmit across that much because you've got to reach

00:13:56 ◼   ► the tower and everything, but all the other associated stuff, how big is the chip you

00:13:59 ◼   ► have to put in there, how much power does that chip take, how much room does it take,

00:14:04 ◼   ► how much does it cost, like all those other factors, time should be on your side, and

00:14:08 ◼   ► eventually it should be like, maybe like when they added the FM radio to the iPod, you know

00:14:13 ◼   ► what, what the hell, throw it in there, but you know there's a software part of it that

00:14:18 ◼   ► they're obviously behind on, but you know the other thing that could help there is like

00:14:20 ◼   ► Margaret was talking about, what if the cost of cellular connections and data continues

00:14:25 ◼   ► to go down, and five, ten years from now, unlimited data connections are standard and

00:14:31 ◼   ► you don't pay a lot for them, and it costs nothing to add, and it's just like, it just

00:14:34 ◼   ► seems like it's got to happen eventually, or the Mac could just go away entirely. But

00:14:37 ◼   ► But anyway, I miss it and I would buy one.

00:14:40 ◼   ► - I totally don't buy any argument

00:14:42 ◼   ► that it's a hardware limitation

00:14:43 ◼   ► or that it would be too costly in the hardware

00:14:45 ◼   ► because the iPad is the biggest counter example.

00:14:47 ◼   ► If they can offer it in the iPad since 2010

00:14:52 ◼   ► for $130 premium, then certainly they can offer it

00:14:55 ◼   ► in the higher priced, larger and bigger

00:14:59 ◼   ► battery MacBook Pro line.

00:15:01 ◼   ► Like there's no reason why, if it's in the iPad,

00:15:05 ◼   ► you can totally do it in the MacBooks.

00:15:08 ◼   ► - I mean, it stands to reason.

00:15:09 ◼   ► I don't know enough about the hardware,

00:15:10 ◼   ► but it certainly stands to reason in my head

00:15:12 ◼   ► that that's the case.

00:15:13 ◼   ► - PC manufacturers also offer this.

00:15:16 ◼   ► Like, this is not, it's not like no one's

00:15:18 ◼   ► ever done this before.

00:15:19 ◼   ► Like, you can buy a ThinkPad with a cell connection in it

00:15:21 ◼   ► for like, also about 10 years, I think.

00:15:24 ◼   ► So like, it can be done.

00:15:26 ◼   ► They just have chosen not to do it.

00:15:28 ◼   ► And that, I think, is unfortunate,

00:15:29 ◼   ► 'cause I wish they offered that.

00:15:31 ◼   ► And I think they could charge a good premium for it,

00:15:34 ◼   ► Maybe 200 bucks, I'd easily pay 200 bucks more.

00:15:36 ◼   ► We'll see.

00:15:37 ◼   ► I don't have high hopes for that, honestly.

00:15:40 ◼   ► - Fair enough, now moving on.

00:15:41 ◼   ► We got a really interesting reminder from A-Tan Shulman,

00:15:46 ◼   ► who wrote in to remind us that in February of 2015,

00:15:51 ◼   ► it was discovered that the new Photos app

00:15:53 ◼   ► contains something called UXKit.

00:15:56 ◼   ► And we'll put a couple links in the show notes,

00:15:58 ◼   ► one to Jason Snell's Six Colors,

00:15:59 ◼   ► and one to a friend of the show, Brent Simmons' blog.

00:16:02 ◼   ► It appears that it's basically a reimplementation of UIKit, which is what's used to build apps

00:16:09 ◼   ► on the iPhone, on top of AppKit, which is what's used to write apps on the Mac.

00:16:16 ◼   ► And it's an interesting thing to think about, well, as these platforms kind of crawl ever

00:16:23 ◼   ► closer to one another, do we think maybe this will be a new thing that maybe, for example,

00:16:29 ◼   ► at WWDC this year. Maybe Apple will release UXKit and make it easier for people like Marco,

00:16:34 ◼   ► who don't really write Mac apps, to write an app on the Mac by using an API that's familiar to him.

00:16:40 ◼   ► **Matt Stauffer:** I think we talked about this at the time.

00:16:42 ◼   ► **Brent Harned:** I think so.

00:16:43 ◼   ► **Matt Stauffer** I think at that time Brent's post had also come out. It's like the consensus

00:16:47 ◼   ► then I still think is the same now, which is like when we all saw photos and these other apps that

00:16:51 ◼   ► look so much like their iOS counterparts, it stands to reason. It's like, oh, but a lot of

00:16:55 ◼   ► of people would say, oh, all they did was port the iOS applications to the Mac and sort

00:16:59 ◼   ► of Mac-ify them a little bit. And so many things in them were similar. And UXKit is

00:17:03 ◼   ► kind of like, well, we know they had a Photos app on iOS. And we know this one visually

00:17:08 ◼   ► and structurally is very similar to that. And so it stands to reason that if they wanted

00:17:12 ◼   ► to make the development of the iPhoto replacement faster, they could say, is there some way

00:17:19 ◼   ► that we can reuse, if not the code directly, then at the very least some of the structure

00:17:24 ◼   ► of the application and some of the knowledge or whatever.

00:17:27 ◼   ► Like is there a way that we can take an iOS application

00:17:31 ◼   ► and even if you're just using the sort of big box diagram

00:17:35 ◼   ► of how the pieces fit together

00:17:36 ◼   ► and what the class names are and everything like that,

00:17:37 ◼   ► can we do that?

00:17:38 ◼   ► Well, you could have this UX kit thing,

00:17:40 ◼   ► which is kind of like a UI kit like wrapper

00:17:41 ◼   ► on top of AppKit so that the Mac looks a little bit more

00:17:45 ◼   ► like iOS from the perspective of this code you're writing,

00:17:48 ◼   ► but you would only do it

00:17:50 ◼   ► if you were coming from that direction.

00:17:52 ◼   ► And Brent Simmons' post is mostly skeptical about the idea

00:17:56 ◼   ► that this would ever be a thing

00:17:57 ◼   ► that they would throw out to developers.

00:17:58 ◼   ► And it's hard to tell because very often,

00:18:00 ◼   ► Apple does dog food its own APIs,

00:18:03 ◼   ► first in its own applications, then like a year later,

00:18:06 ◼   ► at WWDC, they're like, "Oh, here you go."

00:18:08 ◼   ► And they don't mention, like, "Oh, and by the way,

00:18:09 ◼   ► we've been using this for a year or two years

00:18:11 ◼   ► in our own applications to sort of work out the kinks."

00:18:13 ◼   ► But they've done that with so many other technologies.

00:18:15 ◼   ► But then again, there are other things

00:18:16 ◼   ► that they use in their applications

00:18:18 ◼   ► that they never offer up, like the ProKit framework,

00:18:20 ◼   ► they used for Aperture back in the day, and I think Final Cut Pro, like the weird, small,

00:18:26 ◼   ► dark-colored widgets, and like those things were all—there was a ProKit framework they

00:18:29 ◼   ► would, if you had those apps installed, would occasionally get updates.

00:18:32 ◼   ► We are very lucky they didn't offer that for anybody else to use.

00:18:35 ◼   ► Well, I mean, but I'm saying, like, it was—

00:18:37 ◼   ► The last thing the world needs is more ProKit apps.

00:18:39 ◼   ► They didn't just build one app on it, like, "Oh, we have this weird code base and we

00:18:43 ◼   ► do this thing."

00:18:44 ◼   ► They built multiple apps on it, but it never graduated to the level, which I assume that

00:18:48 ◼   ► was also you know or either a wrapper on top of AppKit or its own weird thing but

00:18:52 ◼   ► it never came out into public so I still think there is room as as Marco talked

00:18:58 ◼   ► about the last time for Apple to introduce something that makes it easier

00:19:01 ◼   ► for people with UIKit either code or expertise or both to make Mac apps but I

00:19:08 ◼   ► don't know if UXKit is it maybe UXKit is one attempt at what that

00:19:13 ◼   ► might be like and remember the guys at IconFactory did that chameleon framework

00:19:17 ◼   ► which was another sort of thing where it's a re-implementation of the UI kit API on top of the Mac to help them because they had

00:19:23 ◼   ► UI kit applications that they wanted to bring to the Mac

00:19:25 ◼   ► All those things are like that

00:19:29 ◼   ► They're kind of technical marvels that they work at all

00:19:31 ◼   ► But when you start to suggest the idea that this would be like the one

00:19:36 ◼   ► Recommended way to make Mac apps like Apple would say hey you should use this to make Mac apps

00:19:40 ◼   ► Like I don't think Apple wants to muddy the water

00:19:42 ◼   ► I think they want to have a clearer answer and especially with Swift in the mix now

00:19:45 ◼   ► I'm not entirely sure that Apple is ready to come out with something that will help

00:19:52 ◼   ► iOS developers write Mac apps better.

00:19:56 ◼   ► Whether they think it's even, again, the same thing with investment.

00:19:58 ◼   ► Like yeah, they could do it, they could do lots of different things here, but is it worth

00:20:01 ◼   ► the investment?

00:20:02 ◼   ► It would take a lot of developers and it would be difficult to do, and what would our payoff

00:20:07 ◼   ► be?

00:20:08 ◼   ► So obviously for their own internal applications they decided it was worth it, and so they

00:20:12 ◼   ► got UXKit and they'll probably use it, and if it's not already used in multiple places

00:20:15 ◼   ► that might be used in other places going forward

00:20:17 ◼   ► as a way to make it cheaper for Apple

00:20:19 ◼   ► to bring quote unquote new applications to the Mac,

00:20:22 ◼   ► helping them take the expertise

00:20:24 ◼   ► and maybe some of the code from iOS

00:20:25 ◼   ► and bring it over to Mac apps,

00:20:26 ◼   ► but I'm not sure they're ready to offer that to the public.

00:20:30 ◼   ► - You know, as you were bringing up Chameleon,

00:20:33 ◼   ► I was about to bring it up myself,

00:20:35 ◼   ► and so I went and dug up the GitHub page for it.

00:20:37 ◼   ► Last commit was May 16, 2014.

00:20:40 ◼   ► - When it comes to this kind of

00:20:42 ◼   ► major platform development framework,

00:20:44 ◼   ► I mean, this is long-term stuff.

00:20:46 ◼   ► These are things that last 10, 20 years.

00:20:49 ◼   ► Apple's a very patient company

00:20:50 ◼   ► when it comes to things like this.

00:20:52 ◼   ► So, with lots of things, Apple's very patient, honestly.

00:20:55 ◼   ► But in this kind of scenario,

00:20:57 ◼   ► the transition to Swift I think is very, very important here

00:20:59 ◼   ► and also we have to figure where is Mac OS X going.

00:21:02 ◼   ► As we discussed last week,

00:21:04 ◼   ► if they are planning on some major next-generation

00:21:08 ◼   ► Mac operating system that's going to be a major departure

00:21:10 ◼   ► from OS X as we know it today,

00:21:12 ◼   ► they'll just wait till they do that.

00:21:15 ◼   ► Like they're not gonna make a new OS 10 framework now,

00:21:17 ◼   ► they'll just wait until that comes and do it on that.

00:21:19 ◼   ► Same thing, like if they're gonna do something major

00:21:21 ◼   ► with reconsidering AppKit or UIKit with Swift

00:21:25 ◼   ► and with like a more Swifty model,

00:21:28 ◼   ► if they're going to be doing that anytime

00:21:30 ◼   ► in the next five, 10 years, they'll wait for that.

00:21:33 ◼   ► You know, they're not gonna do something in the meantime

00:21:35 ◼   ► that is, like I can't imagine them investing tons of time

00:21:38 ◼   ► and effort into a brand new Objective-C

00:21:41 ◼   ► the nSwift UI framework for the Mac today.

00:21:45 ◼   ► Like that, I just, I don't see that at all.

00:21:47 ◼   ► If they have to do something more elegant,

00:21:50 ◼   ► or if they wanna do something more elegant,

00:21:51 ◼   ► but they have to wait five more years to do it,

00:21:53 ◼   ► they'll just wait.

00:21:55 ◼   ► - Let's talk about something that's awesome

00:21:56 ◼   ► and celebrate a little bit.

00:21:57 ◼   ► - All right, speaking of the Mac,

00:21:59 ◼   ► if you are a Mac developer and you wanna sell

00:22:02 ◼   ► outside the Mac App Store, our first sponsor today

00:22:05 ◼   ► is DevMate.

00:22:06 ◼   ► DevMate lets you sell Mac apps outside of the Mac App Store

00:22:09 ◼   ► and it integrates a whole bunch of services

00:22:11 ◼   ► So it kind of gives you a lot of the benefits of selling in the Mac App Store as a Mac developer,

00:22:16 ◼   ► but without having to actually be in the Mac App Store.

00:22:20 ◼   ► And honestly I was looking at maybe making a little Mac App, not Overcast, but maybe

00:22:23 ◼   ► making a little Mac App, a little utility thing.

00:22:25 ◼   ► Sorry, Casey.

00:22:26 ◼   ► I was looking at it and I honestly don't want to have to deal with payment processing and

00:22:32 ◼   ► I don't want to have to deal with building in an auto updater and everything.

00:22:37 ◼   ► I just don't want to deal with that stuff.

00:22:38 ◼   ► There's a reason why the App Store is compelling when it works well, which might be never,

00:22:43 ◼   ► but when it, like the promise of it is actually, you know, it should work and in theory it

00:22:50 ◼   ► does work. Unfortunately in reality the Mac App Store doesn't work and fortunately for

00:22:53 ◼   ► me I don't need to make that decision for whatever this app is I'm gonna make because

00:22:56 ◼   ► it can't be sandboxed so I can't put it in the Mac App Store. So if I want to release

00:22:59 ◼   ► it I have to release it outside of the Mac App Store. And I'm looking at DevMate honestly

00:23:03 ◼   ► because DevMate, so it's made by a company called MacPaw, they do all sorts of stuff

00:23:07 ◼   ► for the Mac.

00:23:08 ◼   ► They've made a powerful tool set that has allowed

00:23:12 ◼   ► all of us Mac developers, I can say us now,

00:23:14 ◼   ► to overcome App Store limitations.

00:23:16 ◼   ► So they can sell your software outside of the Mac App Store.

00:23:19 ◼   ► You can deliver updates easily to it with their platform.

00:23:22 ◼   ► You can protect your apps with license management.

00:23:24 ◼   ► You can make trial versions.

00:23:25 ◼   ► You can sell bundles.

00:23:27 ◼   ► You can even run beta tests with automatic crash reporting.

00:23:29 ◼   ► All these luxuries that you get

00:23:31 ◼   ► if you're totally in the App Store ecosystem.

00:23:33 ◼   ► And you can get in-depth analytics and marketing metrics,

00:23:36 ◼   ► which is even usually better than what you can get

00:23:38 ◼   ► in the App Store.

00:23:39 ◼   ► So DevMate has collected all the tools and services

00:23:41 ◼   ► they use into one pack and they've created

00:23:44 ◼   ► this amazing platform for Mac developers.

00:23:46 ◼   ► So you don't have to do any kind of crazy licensing coding

00:23:49 ◼   ► to make your own like weird serial number scheme

00:23:51 ◼   ► or anything like that.

00:23:53 ◼   ► You can use their tools, manage free trials

00:23:55 ◼   ► and many different diverse license types.

00:23:57 ◼   ► They offer hosting, they offer the CDN,

00:24:00 ◼   ► version management, update delivery,

00:24:02 ◼   ► and an e-commerce solution for in-app purchase.

00:24:04 ◼   ► All these things all available.

00:24:06 ◼   ► You can get customer feedback, you can view a breakdown of your paid and trial customers

00:24:10 ◼   ► and built-in trial support, all this amazing stuff, all at DevMate.

00:24:14 ◼   ► So all you have to do is worry about coding the app itself, and you leave the rest to

00:24:19 ◼   ► DevMate.

00:24:20 ◼   ► So Mac developers, check out DevMate today.

00:24:21 ◼   ► Honestly, I am tempted by this.

00:24:22 ◼   ► I might check it out.

00:24:24 ◼   ► If I decide to release this app, that's going to be the first place I look, honestly.

00:24:27 ◼   ► Anyway, thanks for sponsoring.

00:24:28 ◼   ► All right.

00:24:29 ◼   ► So you're not going to tell us what the app is?

00:24:31 ◼   ► Well, sure.

00:24:32 ◼   ► It doesn't really matter.

00:24:33 ◼   ► It's really nothing.

00:24:34 ◼   ► Do you remember a few months ago I posted a little

00:24:38 ◼   ► Longdee AppleScript thing to automatically quit Twitter

00:24:41 ◼   ► every 10 minutes if it wasn't active?

00:24:43 ◼   ► So if you make a native app, you can do that a lot better.

00:24:48 ◼   ► You can do things like, instead of just every 10 minutes,

00:24:51 ◼   ► check if it's active and if not, quit it.

00:24:54 ◼   ► You can monitor the active window in real time.

00:24:58 ◼   ► And so you can quit it 10 minutes after I last used it.

00:25:01 ◼   ► Or you can do things like only quit if it's hidden.

00:25:04 ◼   ► and stuff like that, you can do a more advanced version

00:25:07 ◼   ► of this more easily.

00:25:09 ◼   ► So I have a little prototype of that running,

00:25:11 ◼   ► and right now it's literally like this giant black square

00:25:14 ◼   ► in my menu bar.

00:25:15 ◼   ► So if I wanna actually make it releasable,

00:25:18 ◼   ► there's gonna be some work involved, but it does work,

00:25:21 ◼   ► and it's really nice, actually, it's really nice.

00:25:23 ◼   ► I found that this has dramatically reduced my Twitter usage,

00:25:27 ◼   ► as measured by rescue time,

00:25:28 ◼   ► and so I'm actually very happy with this approach.

00:25:31 ◼   ► And it has turned Twitter into something

00:25:33 ◼   ► that is always open on my Mac, like mail, you know?

00:25:37 ◼   ► It has turned it from something that's always open

00:25:39 ◼   ► to something that is inherently incredibly unreliable,

00:25:41 ◼   ► because it seems to me like it crashes every 10 minutes,

00:25:44 ◼   ► which is really nice. (laughing)

00:25:47 ◼   ► - You created your own chaos monkey on your Mac.

00:25:50 ◼   ► - Yes, that only targets one or two apps.

00:25:52 ◼   ► It's great, it's great because it turns it into something

00:25:57 ◼   ► that I have to actively go and activate,

00:26:00 ◼   ► rather than something that's always there in the corner,

00:26:03 ◼   ► ready for me to be distracted by it, you know?

00:26:05 ◼   ► So it actually, this approach actually

00:26:07 ◼   ► does work really well for me.

00:26:08 ◼   ► I don't know if it'll work for anybody else.

00:26:09 ◼   ► I don't know if anybody else cares,

00:26:11 ◼   ► but it was worth me making the Mac version

00:26:13 ◼   ► just to make it better, so it's no longer

00:26:16 ◼   ► these weird launch D scripts that I can't turn off easily

00:26:19 ◼   ► or can't adjust easily.

00:26:20 ◼   ► So yeah, so far I'm liking it.

00:26:22 ◼   ► So I might release it.

00:26:24 ◼   ► I don't even know if I would charge money.

00:26:25 ◼   ► I have no idea, but I mean, I figure this could be

00:26:28 ◼   ► like a nice way for me to learn a little more

00:26:30 ◼   ► about making Mac software and the market for Mac software

00:26:33 ◼   ► and just kind of dip my toe in

00:26:34 ◼   ► and get like a little tutorial on it.

00:26:36 ◼   ► - Excellent.

00:26:37 ◼   ► - Would you pay five bucks for this thing?

00:26:39 ◼   ► - I wouldn't buy it.

00:26:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I can't say.

00:26:41 ◼   ► - Can you buy an application that quits apps

00:26:43 ◼   ► from out from under you?

00:26:44 ◼   ► No thanks. - Yeah.

00:26:45 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:26:46 ◼   ► - I don't even like a sudden termination or whatever.

00:26:49 ◼   ► The APIs they added that like when you have no open documents

00:26:51 ◼   ► that it kills the application.

00:26:53 ◼   ► I don't even like that.

00:26:54 ◼   ► - I haven't even noticed that ever hitting me, honestly.

00:26:56 ◼   ► Maybe I just don't use apps that do it.

00:26:58 ◼   ► - If you use text edit, it happens a lot.

00:26:59 ◼   ► you close all the windows and text edits

00:27:01 ◼   ► and you switch to some other app

00:27:02 ◼   ► and then you look back at the doc and you're like,

00:27:04 ◼   ► oh, put that dot go underneath text edit,

00:27:05 ◼   ► oh, it's gone again.

00:27:06 ◼   ► - Who would, who use a text edit anymore?

00:27:09 ◼   ► - I find myself using it still occasionally.

00:27:11 ◼   ► It has the, I use it for, as my poor man's outliner.

00:27:13 ◼   ► Like if you do option tab, you know, that whole thing.

00:27:16 ◼   ► - Don't you have like a better, don't you have BB editor?

00:27:19 ◼   ► Aren't you like a better text editor person?

00:27:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, but that's not for outlining.

00:27:22 ◼   ► Like for outlining, you're like having indented levels

00:27:25 ◼   ► and being able to just keep typing

00:27:27 ◼   ► and have it soft wrap the indented level, you know,

00:27:29 ◼   ► - Like you said tab, what?

00:27:31 ◼   ► - No, no, no, you write long paragraphs

00:27:34 ◼   ► and they stay at the level of the,

00:27:36 ◼   ► like you're not hard wrapping it, right?

00:27:37 ◼   ► You're just typing and typing and typing

00:27:39 ◼   ► and it is wrapping in a paragraph

00:27:40 ◼   ► but that paragraph is indented

00:27:42 ◼   ► just like the bullet point you put it on.

00:27:44 ◼   ► - Use a task paper.

00:27:45 ◼   ► - I don't even know what that is.

00:27:46 ◼   ► - That's what I use for that.

00:27:47 ◼   ► It's by, I think it's Jesse Grossjean,

00:27:49 ◼   ► the guy who makes folding text, I think that's him.

00:27:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, anyway, text edit is what I use

00:27:55 ◼   ► for my podcast notes when I'm on podcasts

00:27:57 ◼   ► other than this one, like when it's just notes for me,

00:28:00 ◼   ► as opposed to all three of us sharing a document, right?

00:28:03 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:28:04 ◼   ► And I don't know.

00:28:05 ◼   ► And you double click documents, it owns .txt,

00:28:07 ◼   ► and I haven't gone and changed the bindings

00:28:09 ◼   ► for all that stuff.

00:28:10 ◼   ► So I find myself launching it.

00:28:12 ◼   ► And then if I want to keep it open,

00:28:14 ◼   ► I got to remember just keep one document open.

00:28:16 ◼   ► Really, like the whole idea is you're not supposed to care

00:28:17 ◼   ► that it's open.

00:28:18 ◼   ► It takes out a launcher so fast, I really don't care.

00:28:20 ◼   ► But I do notice it quitting itself.

00:28:22 ◼   ► Preview does the same thing, which annoys me more,

00:28:24 ◼   ► because I do use preview more to view images and stuff.

00:28:26 ◼   ► Apparently, literally, Taskpaper 3 was released today.

00:28:30 ◼   ► Coincidentally.

00:28:31 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:28:32 ◼   ► - I know that is.

00:28:33 ◼   ► - I've been testing it for a while, I don't really like it.

00:28:34 ◼   ► I just didn't realize it was released today.

00:28:36 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:28:37 ◼   ► Yeah, I like Taskpaper a lot.

00:28:39 ◼   ► So we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:28:40 ◼   ► - Fun times.

00:28:41 ◼   ► All right, so speaking of releasing things,

00:28:44 ◼   ► Overcast 2.5, tell us all the things about it, Marco.

00:28:47 ◼   ► - Oh, geez, do I really have to?

00:28:49 ◼   ► Yeah, so I did a 2.5 update,

00:28:52 ◼   ► the list of features of which was typed in Taskpaper

00:28:54 ◼   ► the whole time, as I've been using it

00:28:56 ◼   ► my to-do list for all of my apps since Instapaper 1.0 maybe or at least early versions of Instapaper.

00:29:03 ◼   ► Anyway, so yeah, so 2.5 is basically what it sounds like. It's like a half major release

00:29:09 ◼   ► if that makes sense. Like it's not like it still looks about the same for the most part.

00:29:16 ◼   ► There's not a whole lot of new headlining features but there are a few and there's a

00:29:20 ◼   ► whole bunch of big improvements everywhere basically. So it kind of originally I was

00:29:24 ◼   ► at 2.1 and I was like, "Eh," as I kept adding more stuff, I'm like, "You know what? This

00:29:27 ◼   ► feels like a 2.5." So I'll call it 2.5. And it's about six months from 2.0, so that kind

00:29:32 ◼   ► of made sense with a roughly annual release cycle for the big stuff. So the big things

00:29:38 ◼   ► are if you are a patron, so if you pay me a dollar a month basically, then you get a

00:29:44 ◼   ► new dark theme and you get the ability to have file uploads. So you can like upload

00:29:50 ◼   ► something that's not a real podcast or not a public podcast like an audio book or if

00:29:55 ◼   ► you're a producer of podcasts like a draft of an episode you're working on, you can upload

00:29:59 ◼   ► that into Overcast and play it in your player. And it doesn't become public for everybody

00:30:04 ◼   ► to play. It just plays for you. And this is actually a feature I built this in version

00:30:09 ◼   ► 1.0. I had this right at the beginning and it was only enabled for my account for all

00:30:13 ◼   ► this time. And I would use it to play downloaded episodes of Howard Stern. I mean personally

00:30:17 ◼   ► recorded episodes of Howard Stern, home Howard Stern recordings. And so I use it all this

00:30:22 ◼   ► time, but I didn't want to launch it because these files are hosted on S3. And so I'm

00:30:27 ◼   ► like, I don't really want to sign myself up for somebody paying me five bucks once

00:30:32 ◼   ► and then me hosting like two gigs of S3 files for them for the next three years. That would

00:30:37 ◼   ► be hard to sustain economically. And so I figure, you know, let me wait until I have

00:30:43 ◼   ► have some kind of recurring revenue in place,

00:30:46 ◼   ► or if it appears as though the app is doing

00:30:49 ◼   ► so incredibly well with the in-app purchase upfront,

00:30:52 ◼   ► that I can enable it for everybody,

00:30:54 ◼   ► then maybe I'll try it later.

00:30:55 ◼   ► But anyway, whatever, I push it off 'til later.

00:30:58 ◼   ► That was in mid-2014. (laughs)

00:31:01 ◼   ► And I kinda just forgot about it.

00:31:03 ◼   ► I mean, people have been requesting this feature for a while,

00:31:06 ◼   ► but there were always features that were requested more

00:31:08 ◼   ► that I had to do, that were more important to do,

00:31:11 ◼   ► things like streaming and stuff like that.

00:31:12 ◼   ► So there was always kind of stuff ahead of it

00:31:15 ◼   ► in the to-do list, and I finally got around to doing it,

00:31:18 ◼   ► and which really was just like polishing up

00:31:21 ◼   ► the feature I already had,

00:31:23 ◼   ► like making it look a little bit nicer,

00:31:24 ◼   ► styling the website slightly around the uploader,

00:31:28 ◼   ► instead of just being like an unformatted progress bar

00:31:30 ◼   ► and everything, and the technical side of it's really

00:31:32 ◼   ► pretty straightforward.

00:31:33 ◼   ► I actually, if you look at this,

00:31:34 ◼   ► if you view source on the uploads page,

00:31:36 ◼   ► I actually am uploading the files directly to S3,

00:31:39 ◼   ► and then the app downloads them directly from S3.

00:31:41 ◼   ► So the files never pass through overcast servers,

00:31:44 ◼   ► which helps me save on cost,

00:31:46 ◼   ► and it also helps them arrive faster.

00:31:47 ◼   ► You don't have to wait for a double upload,

00:31:49 ◼   ► like for my server to then upload it to S3,

00:31:50 ◼   ► you don't have to wait for that.

00:31:52 ◼   ► So it's both a nice cost savings for me,

00:31:54 ◼   ► and also a speed improvement for you,

00:31:57 ◼   ► and a weird technical cool thing

00:31:58 ◼   ► that most people don't even know

00:31:59 ◼   ► that you can generate a form

00:32:01 ◼   ► to securely upload a file to S3, but you can.

00:32:03 ◼   ► Then I did dark mode, which is also for patrons only.

00:32:08 ◼   ► I got a little bit of pushback on this, actually.

00:32:11 ◼   ► I'd say I probably heard from about 100 people.

00:32:13 ◼   ► It's a little controversial,

00:32:14 ◼   ► I'm curious what you guys think.

00:32:15 ◼   ► It's a little controversial because,

00:32:17 ◼   ► so when I had version one, 1.x,

00:32:19 ◼   ► like all the 1.x versions,

00:32:20 ◼   ► it ran from mid 2014 to mid 2015.

00:32:24 ◼   ► Version one was a free app with a $5 in app purchase

00:32:27 ◼   ► to quote, unlock everything.

00:32:29 ◼   ► And what I meant was unlock all the features

00:32:31 ◼   ► I have right now, like just unlock everything.

00:32:33 ◼   ► And then in 2.0 last October,

00:32:36 ◼   ► I switched to a full patron's model

00:32:38 ◼   ► where everything was free,

00:32:39 ◼   ► and you could pay if you wanted to for nothing.

00:32:42 ◼   ► Like you would get nothing for it.

00:32:44 ◼   ► And I said I might add features in the future for patrons

00:32:47 ◼   ► that I can't have for everybody for cost reasons or whatever

00:32:50 ◼   ► and I was actually thinking about the upload feature

00:32:51 ◼   ► when I wrote that.

00:32:52 ◼   ► So now when I wanted to add this new file upload

00:32:55 ◼   ► in dark mode pair, I decided to make,

00:32:57 ◼   ► now file uploads are easy to make patron only

00:32:59 ◼   ► 'cause you can say well that costs money

00:33:01 ◼   ► for everyone who uses it.

00:33:03 ◼   ► But there is a debate here among people

00:33:07 ◼   ► who bother me on Twitter, people who are like,

00:33:10 ◼   ► they're literally arguing with each other.

00:33:12 ◼   ► Like I'm not even involved in the argument.

00:33:13 ◼   ► They're people, like my people are arguing in my mentions

00:33:16 ◼   ► with each other about whether this should be a problem

00:33:18 ◼   ► or not, whether people who bought it,

00:33:21 ◼   ► who bought the 1.x unlock everything thing in 2014,

00:33:25 ◼   ► whether they should have the dark mode as well.

00:33:28 ◼   ► And so what do you guys think about that?

00:33:30 ◼   ► 'Cause I figured, the reason why I thought

00:33:32 ◼   ► it would be okay this way, the reason I made everything free

00:33:36 ◼   ► with 2.0 and decided to just do patrons for nothing

00:33:39 ◼   ► for a while, was I was tired of the basic version

00:33:43 ◼   ► of the app having intrusive limitations

00:33:46 ◼   ► that would make it suck.

00:33:47 ◼   ► So like a limit on, like it would only show

00:33:49 ◼   ► the top five entries in a playlist

00:33:50 ◼   ► and you couldn't adjust the speed

00:33:52 ◼   ► or you could only do it for a few minutes at a time

00:33:53 ◼   ► and everything, so there were these limitations in the app

00:33:57 ◼   ► that were actively trying to make the app worse

00:34:01 ◼   ► so that you would hit them and then you'd be encouraged

00:34:04 ◼   ► paid the money to unlock everything.

00:34:06 ◼   ► And so I decided that it would make most sense

00:34:08 ◼   ► for if I was gonna do anything special for patrons.

00:34:11 ◼   ► And first of all, I should preface this with,

00:34:13 ◼   ► patronage wasn't going that well, honestly.

00:34:14 ◼   ► Like it was going well enough to sustain

00:34:17 ◼   ► the basic cost of the app, but it wasn't doing well enough

00:34:20 ◼   ► for me to really wanna justify putting tons of time into it.

00:34:24 ◼   ► It was doing okay, but I needed to do better

00:34:26 ◼   ► than how it was doing.

00:34:28 ◼   ► Otherwise I'm gonna have to move back to some other model,

00:34:30 ◼   ► like whether it's paid up front or another in-app purchase,

00:34:33 ◼   ► whatever. So, patronage as it was going was not going well enough. So I had to change

00:34:37 ◼   ► something. So I decided, let me give people some motivation to pay. But I didn't want

00:34:43 ◼   ► to make the app suck for everyone else. So I decided to, dark mode was, I decided it

00:34:48 ◼   ► was interesting to make patron only because it's something that doesn't really, if you

00:34:53 ◼   ► don't have it, it doesn't affect you at all really. Like it doesn't, the absence of this

00:34:58 ◼   ► feature does not make the app worse for everyone who doesn't have it. It's not like some

00:35:03 ◼   ► some kind of limit that you hit where it makes it worse.

00:35:06 ◼   ► So I figured it would be a nice perk to give patrons,

00:35:09 ◼   ► it's something that like, it kind of feels like a perk,

00:35:12 ◼   ► it kind of feels like a special extra, you know?

00:35:15 ◼   ► 'Cause it isn't really like a substantial,

00:35:18 ◼   ► functional feature in the app, it's just like a theme,

00:35:21 ◼   ► it's how it looks.

00:35:22 ◼   ► And so you make a cool dark mode and it looks cool

00:35:25 ◼   ► and everyone likes dark modes now, like,

00:35:27 ◼   ► so it looks cool and I think it looks nice

00:35:29 ◼   ► and it's something new and different

00:35:30 ◼   ► and kind of exclusive 'cause it's patron only.

00:35:32 ◼   ► So I thought that was all fine.

00:35:35 ◼   ► But I have now heard from, yeah,

00:35:36 ◼   ► probably about 100 people who think differently.

00:35:39 ◼   ► What do you guys think?

00:35:41 ◼   ► - It seems like, well, so for the patron thing,

00:35:44 ◼   ► if someone pays and they get the dark theme,

00:35:47 ◼   ► what is, does the dark theme go away if they stop paying?

00:35:51 ◼   ► - Yes.

00:35:51 ◼   ► - So that, I think that's the place

00:35:53 ◼   ► where it doesn't seem like it fits,

00:35:55 ◼   ► because it seems more like an in-app purchase basically.

00:35:59 ◼   ► Like if you did it as an in-app purchase,

00:36:01 ◼   ► it would be like if you don't want dark theme before two point five came out you

00:36:04 ◼   ► didn't have dark theme anyway

00:36:05 ◼   ► you don't even know dark theme existed you were fine using overcast before now

00:36:09 ◼   ► all of a sudden two point five comes out and you see the shiny dark theme that

00:36:12 ◼   ► you want but you don't want to pay for it is you just want to get it for free

00:36:15 ◼   ► well you know if you this is the thing that you like how about you give me some

00:36:19 ◼   ► money and I'll give you the dark theme but i think that most people's minds

00:36:22 ◼   ► dark theme doesn't seem like a thing that you should have to keep paying for

00:36:25 ◼   ► they don't you know for for whatever reason it seems like like like buying a

00:36:31 ◼   ► downloadable content in the game, you know, you buy to get the fancy hat for your character, you get the fancy hat.

00:36:36 ◼   ► You don't have to keep paying every year to keep your fancy hat.

00:36:39 ◼   ► I think it feels more like a one-time in-app purchase and yeah,

00:36:43 ◼   ► I think it's a perfect kind of in-app purchase or the perfect kind of

00:36:46 ◼   ► monetary frill because it's like, like I said, people may be upset about it, but you know, you're using 1.0 and 2.0

00:36:53 ◼   ► and they didn't have any dark theme, right?

00:36:55 ◼   ► Before 2.5 that you were fine with it,

00:36:58 ◼   ► But then suddenly when you know there's a dark theme and now you have to pay money to get it

00:37:01 ◼   ► Oh, I want to get it. I want to get it for free

00:37:03 ◼   ► Well, so if you don't think it's worth the money don't pay for it, right?

00:37:06 ◼   ► and if you if you suddenly don't want to use the

00:37:08 ◼   ► Application like well then just go back in time and pretend 2.5 was never released and then use whatever calculus you were using before

00:37:14 ◼   ► To make you pay for it. Were you just holding on waiting for a dark theme? Anyway, I

00:37:18 ◼   ► Was saying is I don't think it seems like a recurring thing and trying to bundle it all under the patron thing

00:37:23 ◼   ► when you've only really got two things at this point

00:37:25 ◼   ► for the patrons.

00:37:27 ◼   ► You've got the uploads, which like you said,

00:37:29 ◼   ► makes total sense, like you're costing money,

00:37:31 ◼   ► therefore you must give money on a regular basis

00:37:33 ◼   ► because you're storing files on the internet, right?

00:37:35 ◼   ► - Well, it doesn't make total sense

00:37:37 ◼   ► to everybody who's been angry.

00:37:38 ◼   ► At least half of them are demanding that too.

00:37:41 ◼   ► But that one's easy for me to say,

00:37:44 ◼   ► I can't do that for everybody, sorry,

00:37:46 ◼   ► I'm not gonna do that, you know, that makes sense.

00:37:48 ◼   ► - Right, I mean, it's just a money-losing proposition there.

00:37:52 ◼   ► I will pay for storage on Amazon S3 for you and you will give me nothing?

00:37:55 ◼   ► No, it doesn't, you know.

00:37:55 ◼   ► Anyway, um, I think that makes more sense.

00:37:58 ◼   ► And if you have like 17 features that patrons got and one of them happened to

00:38:01 ◼   ► be the bundle dark theme, I think that would make sense too, because the patron

00:38:04 ◼   ► is like the different, the different class of people like, Oh, I pay a little

00:38:07 ◼   ► bit extra zap that you can get and use for free and it does everything you

00:38:10 ◼   ► want it to do, but I pay a little bit extra for this one feature that has an

00:38:14 ◼   ► ongoing recurring cost because I'm storing bits on the internet and other

00:38:18 ◼   ► feature that's just a little perk.

00:38:19 ◼   ► I mean, in the end, it doesn't really matter,

00:38:21 ◼   ► like all these logical arguments

00:38:22 ◼   ► of what should or shouldn't be.

00:38:23 ◼   ► All that matters is, do people find,

00:38:26 ◼   ► are people willing to pay for it?

00:38:27 ◼   ► I mean, you'll find that out with the sales number.

00:38:29 ◼   ► If have you made an offering that is attractive enough

00:38:31 ◼   ► for people to part ways with their money

00:38:32 ◼   ► on a regular basis to get them, you'll find out.

00:38:35 ◼   ► But if we had to try to like break it down,

00:38:37 ◼   ► I think that's the difference between the two,

00:38:40 ◼   ► the things that you've offered that,

00:38:42 ◼   ► one of them just doesn't seem like a recurring feature

00:38:44 ◼   ► to a lot of people.

00:38:45 ◼   ► But for other people, they're gonna pay

00:38:46 ◼   ► for the file uploads anyway,

00:38:47 ◼   ► And for them, dark mode is just like a perk.

00:38:49 ◼   ► Oh, and great, I get dark mode too.

00:38:50 ◼   ► They don't feel like they're paying X amount

00:38:53 ◼   ► every month or year for dark mode.

00:38:54 ◼   ► They feel like they're paying for file uploads

00:38:56 ◼   ► and getting dark mode as a perk.

00:38:57 ◼   ► So I think that the sales numbers will bear it out.

00:39:00 ◼   ► And if people are having arguments about it,

00:39:02 ◼   ► it's clear there are disagreements

00:39:03 ◼   ► about what is worth spending this money on or not.

00:39:07 ◼   ► So I think it's a perfectly valid experiment.

00:39:10 ◼   ► And I fully expect in six months or a year from now,

00:39:13 ◼   ► are you to try more experiments?

00:39:14 ◼   ► 'Cause that's just the way it goes.

00:39:17 ◼   ► Casey, what do you think?

00:39:18 ◼   ► - I think that I didn't blink an eye over Dark Mode

00:39:23 ◼   ► or file uploads being a patron-only exclusive.

00:39:27 ◼   ► I think having heard Jon's thoughts on it,

00:39:31 ◼   ► I tend to agree with him that Dark Mode seems like

00:39:33 ◼   ► maybe it should have been an in-app purchase

00:39:36 ◼   ► separate from the patronage,

00:39:40 ◼   ► but then that gets into a whole new wiggly discussion

00:39:43 ◼   ► about, well, do you really wanna have patronage

00:39:46 ◼   ► and in-app purchases concurrently.

00:39:50 ◼   ► - And the answer is no, I really don't.

00:39:51 ◼   ► Like there's so many reasons why I don't wanna do that.

00:39:54 ◼   ► - Then I would say either you give dark mode

00:39:58 ◼   ► out of the goodness of your heart

00:39:59 ◼   ► and then potentially have some financial implications

00:40:04 ◼   ► thereof, which I don't think is a terribly good option,

00:40:07 ◼   ► or you deal with the people being grumpy.

00:40:09 ◼   ► I do understand what Jon's saying

00:40:10 ◼   ► and I mostly agree with him that, you know,

00:40:12 ◼   ► it feels like the sort of thing

00:40:13 ◼   ► that you should just pay for once and that's that.

00:40:16 ◼   ► But on the other side of the coin, I mean, you need to be able to eat.

00:40:19 ◼   ► And I would say that most of the people, or I would think that most of the people that

00:40:24 ◼   ► download this app have enough of an understanding of kind of how the App Store economy works.

00:40:31 ◼   ► Not necessarily to the level of those who listen to the show, but just a general understanding

00:40:35 ◼   ► that, hey, the people who wrote this app, or person that wrote this app, needs to be

00:40:38 ◼   ► able to eat.

00:40:39 ◼   ► And so I need to be able to pay that person.

00:40:42 ◼   ► And so I don't find it troubling for either to be in the patronage model at all, really.

00:40:49 ◼   ► But it's easy for me to say because, you know, I'm obviously going to support you

00:40:53 ◼   ► regardless because you're a close friend of mine.

00:40:56 ◼   ► I definitely don't see a problem with the file uploads being in patronage at all, at

00:41:01 ◼   ► all, at all.

00:41:02 ◼   ► Because as Jon has said, as you've said, you need to be able to recoup that money somehow.

00:41:07 ◼   ► The way I look at the Patronix model really

00:41:10 ◼   ► is that I'm trying to find a way to be both the cheapest

00:41:15 ◼   ► and the most expensive podcast app in the store.

00:41:18 ◼   ► So I'm trying to find a way where this could be free

00:41:23 ◼   ► for almost everybody, you know, free up front.

00:41:26 ◼   ► If anybody wants to try it, they can try it for free

00:41:28 ◼   ► because, as I said on numerous other occasions,

00:41:31 ◼   ► one of my goals with this app is to get a lot of users

00:41:34 ◼   ► to kind of help me defend the openness of podcasting,

00:41:37 ◼   ► with diversity of clients.

00:41:38 ◼   ► So it is very important for me

00:41:41 ◼   ► that the app stay free up front.

00:41:43 ◼   ► And so the question is like, how do I,

00:41:45 ◼   ► where do I get the money?

00:41:46 ◼   ► You know, and I can do like ads somehow,

00:41:48 ◼   ► but I don't really want to.

00:41:50 ◼   ► I've thought of ways I could do it tastefully.

00:41:52 ◼   ► I still would rather not do that if I don't have to.

00:41:55 ◼   ► So you know, we'll see what happens there.

00:41:57 ◼   ► Hopefully I won't need to do that.

00:41:58 ◼   ► But I might.

00:41:59 ◼   ► To me, I see this really as update pricing,

00:42:03 ◼   ► or upgrade pricing.

00:42:04 ◼   ► Like kind of baked in.

00:42:05 ◼   ► So if I didn't do this, I would have to do

00:42:10 ◼   ► some kind of upgrade pricing model.

00:42:12 ◼   ► So I would have to then hold back features for longer

00:42:16 ◼   ► and make these bigger, like I probably wouldn't have

00:42:17 ◼   ► released 2.5 right now, I probably would have done,

00:42:19 ◼   ► waited a few more months and done a big 3.0 update

00:42:22 ◼   ► in the summer or something, and then charged

00:42:26 ◼   ► a whole separate purchase.

00:42:27 ◼   ► Like had it be, all right, you know what,

00:42:28 ◼   ► your 1.x and 2.x purchases don't count for anything now.

00:42:34 ◼   ► Now, you know, brand new purchase

00:42:36 ◼   ► for the 3.0 premium features.

00:42:38 ◼   ► And that also sucks in a lot of different ways.

00:42:42 ◼   ► And I think that would anger people more.

00:42:44 ◼   ► So the question is, I want to get,

00:42:47 ◼   ► somehow I want to get some kind of recurring revenue.

00:42:49 ◼   ► And I think the software industry kind of bears that out now

00:42:53 ◼   ► of seeing like, you know, for an app to be sustainable,

00:42:55 ◼   ► it needs something like that.

00:42:57 ◼   ► You know, it doesn't necessarily need to be done

00:42:59 ◼   ► in one particular way, but somehow,

00:43:02 ◼   ► you need recurring revenue to come in.

00:43:04 ◼   ► You know, like with Instapaper,

00:43:05 ◼   ► I didn't have that for a long time.

00:43:07 ◼   ► Instapaper, it was just five bucks up front,

00:43:09 ◼   ► and that was it.

00:43:10 ◼   ► And that worked for a long time,

00:43:13 ◼   ► because the growth was so good.

00:43:15 ◼   ► With Overcast, the growth isn't that good.

00:43:17 ◼   ► It grows, but it's not growing at the kind of rate

00:43:20 ◼   ► that Instapaper was, just because Instapaper

00:43:22 ◼   ► had a really great growth curve.

00:43:23 ◼   ► It was really early in the app store.

00:43:26 ◼   ► It had, you know, it was in the right place

00:43:28 ◼   ► at the right time, basically.

00:43:29 ◼   ► And I think that was a wider audience.

00:43:31 ◼   ► Whereas now, with Overcast, the built-in podcast app

00:43:34 ◼   ► is so popular, and even though it's fairly mediocre,

00:43:39 ◼   ► it's popular enough that it's hard for people

00:43:42 ◼   ► to make a dent in that.

00:43:44 ◼   ► So I need some way to, I can't rely on just growth

00:43:47 ◼   ► for revenue purposes.

00:43:48 ◼   ► I have to rely on some kind of recurring revenue.

00:43:51 ◼   ► So in the App Store, my options are sell coins and BS,

00:43:55 ◼   ► but some kind of consumable, it's literally,

00:43:58 ◼   ► they call it some kind of consumable in-app purchase.

00:44:01 ◼   ► I don't think that necessarily fits in a podcast client.

00:44:03 ◼   ► I don't see how that fits in a way

00:44:05 ◼   ► that doesn't just piss people off.

00:44:07 ◼   ► So that's option number one, not a very good option.

00:44:10 ◼   ► Option number two would be what I mentioned,

00:44:12 ◼   ► kind of like the upgrade pricing

00:44:14 ◼   ► kind of straightforward way to do it,

00:44:15 ◼   ► which is either make a whole separate app every year

00:44:18 ◼   ► and have it be paid upfront maybe,

00:44:20 ◼   ► or have it be free with in-app purchase

00:44:22 ◼   ► to unlock the way I did 1.0.

00:44:24 ◼   ► Then I have a whole new app every year,

00:44:26 ◼   ► and that has so many problems

00:44:27 ◼   ► with people getting really angry

00:44:29 ◼   ► if they bought it right before you updated it

00:44:30 ◼   ► and you have to, again, you have to kind of batch

00:44:33 ◼   ► your major updates together and hold back features

00:44:36 ◼   ► for six months waiting for the big update and everything.

00:44:38 ◼   ► And that sucks too.

00:44:40 ◼   ► Or you do what I'm doing now,

00:44:42 ◼   ► which is some kind of subscription,

00:44:44 ◼   ► some kind of recurring payment for something.

00:44:48 ◼   ► So the way I'm doing it now is,

00:44:49 ◼   ► I started out, you're paying for nothing.

00:44:51 ◼   ► Now you're paying for almost nothing,

00:44:52 ◼   ► except for these two features you're kind of paying for.

00:44:55 ◼   ► I think it's a pretty good happy medium

00:44:58 ◼   ► where I'm basically charging you $12 a year

00:45:00 ◼   ► if you want the full experience,

00:45:02 ◼   ► but most people won't and that's fine.

00:45:05 ◼   ► So far, my subscription counts are up by some big percentage,

00:45:10 ◼   ► I think like 30% in like two days.

00:45:13 ◼   ► I mean, they had a big jump and we'll see what happens

00:45:17 ◼   ► if they keep going up as more people get the update

00:45:20 ◼   ► or try the update.

00:45:21 ◼   ► I'm not really promoting the update.

00:45:23 ◼   ► Like when you launch it after the update,

00:45:25 ◼   ► it doesn't pop up a box saying, hey, here's what's new.

00:45:27 ◼   ► Just nothing happens, so you'd have to go

00:45:29 ◼   ► to the settings screen to even notice necessarily

00:45:31 ◼   ► that it's been updated.

00:45:33 ◼   ► So this could be a slow growth over time.

00:45:35 ◼   ► But it does seem so far as though this one change

00:45:40 ◼   ► of giving you something that you kinda want

00:45:43 ◼   ► for 12 bucks a year, it does feel like that one change

00:45:47 ◼   ► will be enough to push a lot more people into subscribing.

00:45:52 ◼   ► And that will probably make the difference

00:45:53 ◼   ► between being able to keep this model long term or not.

00:45:57 ◼   ► 'Cause if I didn't do this, as I said earlier,

00:45:59 ◼   ► if I didn't add something compelling for patrons,

00:46:02 ◼   ► and uploads aren't compelling enough,

00:46:03 ◼   ► because most people don't need that feature.

00:46:05 ◼   ► Some people really like it, but most people don't need it.

00:46:07 ◼   ► Whereas dark mode, that could appeal to any user.

00:46:10 ◼   ► You know, it doesn't necessarily,

00:46:11 ◼   ► not everybody cares that much,

00:46:12 ◼   ► but it will appeal to lots of people.

00:46:15 ◼   ► So if I didn't make a change like that,

00:46:17 ◼   ► where you got something for that unlock

00:46:19 ◼   ► that was really nice, but that didn't make the app

00:46:21 ◼   ► super bad for everyone who didn't have it,

00:46:23 ◼   ► then I wouldn't be able to continue this model.

00:46:25 ◼   ► So hey, we'll see what happens.

00:46:28 ◼   ► John's probably right,

00:46:28 ◼   ► I will probably change this in six months,

00:46:30 ◼   ► but you know, I'm hoping not to have to

00:46:32 ◼   ► because if I can keep this,

00:46:34 ◼   ► if this ends up working and being like a great model

00:46:37 ◼   ► for Overcast long term,

00:46:38 ◼   ► then I don't need to save up features

00:46:41 ◼   ► for major releases anymore.

00:46:42 ◼   ► I can release features whenever they're ready.

00:46:44 ◼   ► That is so much better for me,

00:46:46 ◼   ► it's better for users,

00:46:47 ◼   ► it is just so much better to do things that way,

00:46:50 ◼   ► and I don't have to deal with all this crazy

00:46:52 ◼   ► constantly changing purchase stuff to manage

00:46:55 ◼   ► and it's easier for the users.

00:46:57 ◼   ► There's no issue of like, if you buy the day before

00:47:02 ◼   ► I have like a major new update,

00:47:03 ◼   ► then you feel like a jerk from the day before.

00:47:05 ◼   ► There's so many issues this avoids.

00:47:08 ◼   ► And barring the absence of some kind of new

00:47:11 ◼   ► app store monetization method where, you know,

00:47:14 ◼   ► if Apple would offer some kind of easier paid upgrade system

00:47:18 ◼   ► or something like that, I might change my mind.

00:47:20 ◼   ► But barring anything like that, which I don't foresee,

00:47:22 ◼   ► this is probably a really great model as long as it works.

00:47:25 ◼   ► That's a big question, but we'll see.

00:47:28 ◼   ► - So you're gonna have to come up with new hats soon though.

00:47:31 ◼   ► Like the dark mode is your hat.

00:47:32 ◼   ► The dark mode is that the games learn that the thing

00:47:35 ◼   ► that you can make people pay for are actually the things

00:47:38 ◼   ► that are meaningless in the scope of the game,

00:47:40 ◼   ► but give your character a funny hat or whatever.

00:47:42 ◼   ► Like some cosmetic item that is desirable

00:47:45 ◼   ► all out of proportion to the actual value.

00:47:48 ◼   ► Because the number of people who legitimately need dark mode

00:47:50 ◼   ► because the white screen is too blinding and they like to use it mounted in their car or

00:47:55 ◼   ► whatever.

00:47:56 ◼   ► Like everyone's got an excuse why they need a dark mode and they can't turn their screen

00:47:59 ◼   ► down or whatever, right?

00:48:00 ◼   ► But bottom line is people want dark mode because it looks nice.

00:48:03 ◼   ► Those are the perfect kind of usually, you know, in-app purchase types things.

00:48:06 ◼   ► I would love to know how many people signed up for Patronage in 2.5 because of one of

00:48:13 ◼   ► the two new features, which one was it?

00:48:15 ◼   ► Like if they had to weigh them.

00:48:16 ◼   ► Like many people are just signing up just because they want to fund the app and have

00:48:20 ◼   ► it be developed and blah blah blah, the sort of high-minded ideal.

00:48:23 ◼   ► But other people are like, "Oh, there's two new features, file uploads in dark mode.

00:48:26 ◼   ► Which one were they really wanting to get?

00:48:28 ◼   ► Did they like them both equally, or are they going mostly for dark mode?"

00:48:31 ◼   ► And I would think most of them were going for dark mode, even though that is like the

00:48:35 ◼   ► less valuable, practically speaking, in terms of it doesn't actually add any feature, it

00:48:38 ◼   ► just makes the app look different.

00:48:40 ◼   ► So if that ends up working, next year you'll need something else of similar value for the

00:48:46 ◼   ► people who paid for dark mode, right?

00:48:48 ◼   ► don't want to keep paying because they're bored with dark mode. What new hats do you have to give

00:48:52 ◼   ► them for your podcast application? How about a podcast application instruction kit like the

00:48:57 ◼   ► calculator construction kit? You get to design your own application, pick the font, pick the

00:49:02 ◼   ► go. Anyway, I'm sure you'll come up with something. What I'm hoping is though, as you go through these

00:49:06 ◼   ► features, you're saying like before you had these other features that were more important than file

00:49:10 ◼   ► uploads, but eventually you did those and so you got to file uploads. How far down the list is my

00:49:15 ◼   ► feature where whenever I add something to overcast I want it to be added to the

00:49:19 ◼   ► one playlist I use all the time. I hate adding it to overcast and realizing I

00:49:23 ◼   ► didn't really add it overcast I added to a place where I'm never ever gonna see

00:49:26 ◼   ► it because I spent all my time in this one playlist and it's 7,000 taps to pull

00:49:30 ◼   ► things from not in the playlist to be into the playlist when they're like

00:49:34 ◼   ► individual episodes like if someone tweets oh this was a good podcast

00:49:37 ◼   ► episode of a podcast that you probably don't want to subscribe to but just

00:49:41 ◼   ► download this episode and before it was like oh well now I got to subscribe and

00:49:44 ◼   ► find the episode and then add it to my playlist.

00:49:46 ◼   ► But now with uploads, I can just download the MP3

00:49:48 ◼   ► and upload it, but I still have to go add it to my playlist.

00:49:50 ◼   ► I would love it if everything I added to Overcast

00:49:52 ◼   ► always went into the playlist of my choice.

00:49:54 ◼   ► And I realize that's a super low priority feature,

00:49:56 ◼   ► but in theory, eventually you'll get to it.

00:49:59 ◼   ► - That is exactly how Overcast works for me.

00:50:01 ◼   ► Because my everything playlist is default inclusive.

00:50:06 ◼   ► Yours is a whitelist based, right?

00:50:10 ◼   ► Isn't that the last time we talked about this?

00:50:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, but that's what I want.

00:50:13 ◼   ► That's what I want. I want it to be white list based because there are things on the

00:50:17 ◼   ► outside that are large volume things that I don't want cluttering up my, it just seems

00:50:21 ◼   ► like a simple, anyway, eventually you'll be scraping the bottom of the barrel of the features

00:50:25 ◼   ► and you'll get to mine.

00:50:26 ◼   ► Eventually.

00:50:27 ◼   ► It's just one top menu. When adding things to Overcast, where should they be added by

00:50:32 ◼   ► default? I don't even want a million options like what priority, just add to the bottom.

00:50:36 ◼   ► I don't care. Or the top, whatever. Pick one.

00:50:39 ◼   ► - Oh boy, well anyway, maybe someday I'll have to go

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00:53:49 ◼   ► - One quick question for you, Marco.

00:53:51 ◼   ► I don't know very much at all about S3,

00:53:53 ◼   ► but all of the uploaded files are in a bucket

00:53:57 ◼   ► that you control/own, right?

00:53:59 ◼   ► Or maybe bucket is the right term, but.

00:54:01 ◼   ► So have you looked into about how many files

00:54:04 ◼   ► been uploaded? Is it a gajillion? Is it just ten? You know, do you have any feeling for

00:54:07 ◼   ► it?

00:54:08 ◼   ► >> Honestly, I haven't looked since that day. Give me a second. Introduce the next topic.

00:54:13 ◼   ► I'll look. I'll have. Can I do this? Can transmit count up for me?

00:54:17 ◼   ► >> Well, while you think about that for a second, and you can interrupt with some real-time

00:54:20 ◼   ► follow-up hopefully in a minute, it is probably worthwhile for us to talk about what's going

00:54:25 ◼   ► on Monday. It is Monday, right? The big Apple event?

00:54:28 ◼   ► >> Something like that, yeah.

00:54:29 ◼   ► I think it's, yeah, it's March 21st.

00:54:31 ◼   ► So yes, that's Monday.

00:54:33 ◼   ► Apple is going to loop in the press on March 21st

00:54:37 ◼   ► and talk about some new things.

00:54:39 ◼   ► What do we think it's gonna be?

00:54:41 ◼   ► I presume it'll be some sort of new Macintosh hardware.

00:54:46 ◼   ► It may be a new smaller iPhone,

00:54:48 ◼   ► which I have extraordinarily conflicting thoughts about.

00:54:52 ◼   ► John, what do you think?

00:54:54 ◼   ► - I haven't really been keeping up

00:54:55 ◼   ► with the typical criminology of examining the invitation

00:54:59 ◼   ► and seeing what it means. I mean, I did see it when it came out, and I thought briefly

00:55:03 ◼   ► about the looping you in, and I saw a couple stories about, "Oh, it's going to be showing

00:55:06 ◼   ► new colors of Milanese loops." I don't know. I mean, the titles always mean something.

00:55:13 ◼   ► Sometimes it's something not exciting. But that's—it does say something about what

00:55:20 ◼   ► they choose to emphasize. And it would be really weird to me, I think, to have this

00:55:24 ◼   ► event where we assume there's going to be at the very least new laptops that Marco will

00:55:28 ◼   ► talk about when he's done doing his research.

00:55:30 ◼   ► [laughter]

00:55:31 ◼   ► I'm just -- it's just a spinner.

00:55:32 ◼   ► I'm not counting it myself.

00:55:34 ◼   ► But it would be really weird to me if they had this event and introduced all the things

00:55:39 ◼   ► that we think they're going to introduce, or at least some of them or whatever, but

00:55:42 ◼   ► the "loop us in" thing ended up being about new Milanese loops, new colors?

00:55:46 ◼   ► Like, I don't know.

00:55:47 ◼   ► I just -- it seems weird.

00:55:49 ◼   ► So I'm hoping that's not what it is.

00:55:50 ◼   ► But anyway, I've been treating this event kind of like The Force Awakens, where I'm

00:55:55 ◼   ► I'm not trying to read too many spoilers about it because the past couple of events I haven't

00:56:00 ◼   ► really been bowled over by.

00:56:02 ◼   ► And I want to be pleasantly surprised by something.

00:56:06 ◼   ► So, you know, it's just managing expectations.

00:56:07 ◼   ► Like, all right, well, if you feel like you're getting overhyped, then just don't read as

00:56:10 ◼   ► much hype, and then whatever they announce, you'll be more excited about.

00:56:14 ◼   ► Can I spoil it for you?

00:56:15 ◼   ► I mean, yeah.

00:56:16 ◼   ► So the laptops, I'm probably not going to be excited about anyway.

00:56:19 ◼   ► Well, I was just going to tell you that they're probably not going to release the Mac Pro

00:56:24 ◼   ► with the gaming video card that you want.

00:56:26 ◼   ► Oh, yeah, really?

00:56:28 ◼   ► Thanks.

00:56:29 ◼   ► I kind of figured that one out.

00:56:31 ◼   ► It doesn't have to be a gaming video card, but they released a new Mac Pro, period.

00:56:35 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:56:36 ◼   ► I'm assuming if that's going to come, it would be WWC or later.

00:56:40 ◼   ► I haven't even been keeping enough to know if this is the rumored event where they're

00:56:45 ◼   ► going to do the new iPad.

00:56:47 ◼   ► I assume that's going to be October still, but like the new regular-sized iPad with the

00:56:51 ◼   ► styles and everything that I might actually buy. But if I did announce that, because I've

00:56:55 ◼   ► been out of the loop, I would be excited by it and I would probably buy one. Otherwise,

00:57:01 ◼   ► I guess I'll just look at the laptops from afar and we'll talk about whether we think

00:57:04 ◼   ► they're good or bad laptops. But Marco can tell us about those now.

00:57:07 ◼   ► Well, first of all, the rumors are pretty strong that this is the event where the 9.7-inch

00:57:14 ◼   ► new iPad will be released. Oh, don't spoil it for me. I could have been pleasantly surprised.

00:57:20 ◼   ► How do you not know that?

00:57:21 ◼   ► - I've been trying to stay away from the million sites

00:57:25 ◼   ► that will tell me the list of things

00:57:27 ◼   ► that are likely to appear.

00:57:28 ◼   ► - Okay, well, basically everybody is reporting

00:57:32 ◼   ► the same rumors, including ATP Tipster,

00:57:35 ◼   ► reporting the same rumors that basically this is that event

00:57:38 ◼   ► and we should probably expect that to happen,

00:57:41 ◼   ► like almost certainly, I don't think anyone's even doubting

00:57:44 ◼   ► any part of it anymore, but basically that's going to happen

00:57:47 ◼   ► in all likelihood, and it is 9.7 inch iPad

00:57:51 ◼   ► that's kind of like a mini iPad Pro.

00:57:53 ◼   ► So it'll have a smart connector,

00:57:56 ◼   ► it'll have those four speaker arrangement,

00:57:59 ◼   ► and it'll be nice and fast

00:58:01 ◼   ► and use some variant of the A9X.

00:58:03 ◼   ► Oh, and it supports the pencil.

00:58:05 ◼   ► - I've been wondering how they're gonna find space

00:58:07 ◼   ► for the big speaker cavities.

00:58:08 ◼   ► Do they just mean they'll have four speakers?

00:58:10 ◼   ► - That is the rumor is that it will have

00:58:13 ◼   ► a similar four speaker arrangement as the iPad Pro.

00:58:17 ◼   ► I think they could plausibly do it.

00:58:19 ◼   ► I mean, with the iPad, their main limitation is weight.

00:58:24 ◼   ► It's not necessarily size.

00:58:26 ◼   ► Weight is the big one.

00:58:27 ◼   ► So they presumably, I don't think every inch of that case

00:58:32 ◼   ► needs to be full of battery.

00:58:34 ◼   ► 'Cause I mean, look at the iPad Pro.

00:58:36 ◼   ► If you look at the iPad Pro, it's not--

00:58:38 ◼   ► - But the case is so much bigger there is what I don't know.

00:58:40 ◼   ► I think it's just make it thicker obviously,

00:58:41 ◼   ► but that's so counter to what they always do.

00:58:43 ◼   ► Like all you gotta do is make it a millimeter thicker

00:58:45 ◼   ► and then suddenly you gain back all the area

00:58:46 ◼   ► that you want for the, or you could just make

00:58:48 ◼   ► the cavity smaller, anyway, I'm sure they'll work it out,

00:58:50 ◼   ► I'm just curious about what it'll look like.

00:58:52 ◼   ► - But a real-time follow-up, the total amount of data

00:58:54 ◼   ► stored on Overcast uploads so far is 189 gigs.

00:58:57 ◼   ► So that's not bad for like three days after release.

00:59:00 ◼   ► - That is impressive, and do you have any feel

00:59:02 ◼   ► for how many files that is, just ballpark?

00:59:04 ◼   ► - This doesn't tell me that somehow. (laughs)

00:59:09 ◼   ► - Time for another spinner. - It doesn't tell me

00:59:10 ◼   ► how many bytes, yeah, no, I'm not gonna do that.

00:59:11 ◼   ► Anyway, it doesn't matter.

00:59:13 ◼   ► Yeah, a lot. (laughs)

00:59:15 ◼   ► 188 gigs, I mean, I have a limit of 500 megs per file,

00:59:18 ◼   ► so it's probably, or maybe, no, I've raised it,

00:59:20 ◼   ► it's a gig per file now, so, you know,

00:59:23 ◼   ► it's gotta be at least 188.

00:59:25 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:59:28 ◼   ► Probably more.

00:59:29 ◼   ► Anyway, so I think this will be a major iPad update,

00:59:33 ◼   ► because for one thing, I think bringing the pencil

00:59:36 ◼   ► to the 10-inch line is a really big deal,

00:59:38 ◼   ► and by all accounts, that's what they're going to do.

00:59:40 ◼   ► That is gonna be huge, because for so many people,

00:59:44 ◼   ► They really want the pencil, but the iPad Pro

00:59:47 ◼   ► is just too big, 'cause the iPad Pro,

00:59:49 ◼   ► you really have to be really into working on the iPad

00:59:53 ◼   ► on a table or at a desk.

00:59:55 ◼   ► You have to be really into that kind of setup,

00:59:57 ◼   ► almost like a mini laptop, really.

00:59:59 ◼   ► You have to be using it that way

01:00:00 ◼   ► for that to be comfortable for a lot of people.

01:00:03 ◼   ► The way most people use iPads,

01:00:05 ◼   ► kind of like in one arm, kind of sitting on a couch

01:00:09 ◼   ► or something, the way most people use iPads, I think,

01:00:12 ◼   ► that the iPad Pro is not great for that.

01:00:15 ◼   ► You can do it, but it's really not great for that,

01:00:17 ◼   ► and in some cases, maybe you can't do it.

01:00:19 ◼   ► So I think there's a lot of people who would like

01:00:21 ◼   ► the features of the iPad Pro, but just want it to be smaller

01:00:25 ◼   ► and just for physical dimension reasons.

01:00:28 ◼   ► So I think this will sell very well for an iPad.

01:00:31 ◼   ► I don't think it's going to revive the iPad

01:00:34 ◼   ► and save it by itself.

01:00:37 ◼   ► It might be part of a combination of things

01:00:38 ◼   ► that revive the iPad, but I don't think

01:00:41 ◼   ► this alone will do it, but I think it's gonna be

01:00:43 ◼   ► a really nice update and it's gonna be a success, I think.

01:00:46 ◼   ► And if I use my iPad more than zero times ever,

01:00:49 ◼   ► I would totally get it because it looks like

01:00:52 ◼   ► it's gonna be really good.

01:00:53 ◼   ► Unfortunately, maybe I might get it.

01:00:55 ◼   ► I had an idea for an app that uses the pencil,

01:00:57 ◼   ► but I don't think, I'm probably not gonna get to that idea

01:00:59 ◼   ► any time soon, so I'll probably wait on that

01:01:01 ◼   ► and probably not get this version.

01:01:03 ◼   ► But the only thing that would make me get this version,

01:01:05 ◼   ► I think, is if I decided to move forward with that app

01:01:07 ◼   ► and I would get it to test on,

01:01:08 ◼   ► but it's probably not gonna happen.

01:01:10 ◼   ► I'm really hoping for, even though I am not at all in the market for a laptop, I am really

01:01:15 ◼   ► hoping for the new MacBook Pros or whatever else happens to be released, has the keyboard

01:01:22 ◼   ► mechanism from the Magic Keyboard.

01:01:25 ◼   ► If you happen to follow me on Twitter, I won't shut up about how much I love the Magic Keyboard

01:01:28 ◼   ► because guess what?

01:01:29 ◼   ► I'm so amped for the thought of that keyboard being on a MacBook Pro because now typing

01:01:35 ◼   ► on my, basically brand new as I sit here today,

01:01:39 ◼   ► 15-inch MacBook Pro, the keys are just mushy

01:01:43 ◼   ► by comparison to the Magic Keyboard,

01:01:47 ◼   ► and I want the Magic Keyboard in a MacBook Pro some fears.

01:01:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I guess we'll talk about the MacBook Pro now.

01:01:54 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:01:55 ◼   ► - Was there anything else about the iPad?

01:01:57 ◼   ► - No, but there's also the iPhone and the watch bands.

01:01:59 ◼   ► Anyway-- - We'll get there.

01:02:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, so MacBook Pro.

01:02:03 ◼   ► Intel released Skylake chips this past winter,

01:02:05 ◼   ► like in CES or whatever time scale that was,

01:02:08 ◼   ► or in that ballpark.

01:02:10 ◼   ► Skylake is a big deal, basically.

01:02:12 ◼   ► It's the new revision of the Intel CPUs

01:02:15 ◼   ► that is dramatically lower battery life,

01:02:17 ◼   ► or dramatically less battery usage,

01:02:20 ◼   ► and a pretty decent performance increase as well.

01:02:23 ◼   ► So it ends up that if you, by switching to Skylake,

01:02:26 ◼   ► if you keep the size of the thing the same,

01:02:28 ◼   ► you can get a nice long battery out of it.

01:02:30 ◼   ► If you just wanna keep the battery life the same,

01:02:33 ◼   ► then you can shrink the size of the laptop.

01:02:35 ◼   ► You can make it thinner and lighter.

01:02:36 ◼   ► So what we've heard from ATP Tipster,

01:02:40 ◼   ► quite a lot actually, but what we've heard is that

01:02:43 ◼   ► this update or some update soon,

01:02:47 ◼   ► basically these laptops exist,

01:02:49 ◼   ► we don't know if they'll be released on Wednesday,

01:02:51 ◼   ► but this update has happened internally

01:02:54 ◼   ► and they're done, they're ready to go.

01:02:56 ◼   ► But with Intel you never know

01:02:58 ◼   ► whether they can get enough chips

01:03:00 ◼   ► whether Intel, Intel's a mess as a partner to depend on.

01:03:03 ◼   ► 'Cause like Intel's been holding back Mac releases

01:03:06 ◼   ► for years now, 'cause just like they just can't

01:03:08 ◼   ► advance their own stuff, they can't get their process up,

01:03:10 ◼   ► they can't get yields up, whatever else.

01:03:12 ◼   ► But sometime very soon, and probably at this event,

01:03:15 ◼   ► there's going to be a significant update

01:03:17 ◼   ► to the MacBook Pro line, including,

01:03:19 ◼   ► and also the MacBook One.

01:03:20 ◼   ► So moving them all to Skylake, basically.

01:03:25 ◼   ► And of course what this allows them to do,

01:03:26 ◼   ► as I said earlier, is you can either increase

01:03:28 ◼   ► the battery life or you can make the thing

01:03:29 ◼   ► thinner and lighter.

01:03:30 ◼   ► So according to HP Tipster, the MacBook One,

01:03:34 ◼   ► the little skinny one port thing with the crappy keyboard,

01:03:37 ◼   ► that is apparently getting Skylake,

01:03:39 ◼   ► but with not really other meaningful changes.

01:03:41 ◼   ► The USB-C port it has will become

01:03:44 ◼   ► a Thunderbolt 3 USB-C port, I think,

01:03:46 ◼   ► but that will be a big deal 'cause that enables

01:03:50 ◼   ► faster things and better monitor and stuff like that.

01:03:52 ◼   ► But the main thing is with the MacBook One,

01:03:54 ◼   ► it'll get a decent performance increase.

01:03:56 ◼   ► But again, keep in mind, if a lot of people

01:03:58 ◼   ► are hoping for the MacBook One to somehow reach the level of last year's MacBook Pro

01:04:03 ◼   ► or something. It won't. It can't. The thermal difference is there. This is a fanless computer

01:04:09 ◼   ► made to dissipate like six watts of heat or whatever. It can't. You can't put a CPU class

01:04:16 ◼   ► that's made for like a 25 watt enclosure. It can't dissipate enough heat. So the MacBook

01:04:22 ◼   ► One CPUs are never going to be fast relative to the ones you can get by going a little

01:04:26 ◼   ► larger with a fan, like they're never gonna be that fast.

01:04:29 ◼   ► And it's never even gonna be close.

01:04:30 ◼   ► They just can't be by just thermals of CPU design.

01:04:33 ◼   ► But it will be probably a good 10 to 25% faster than it is

01:04:37 ◼   ► now, something like that, like in that ballpark.

01:04:41 ◼   ► And it's also gonna probably have something like

01:04:43 ◼   ► 10 to 30% better battery life, something like that.

01:04:46 ◼   ► So it takes this computer that was pretty underpowered

01:04:51 ◼   ► and had pretty mediocre battery life,

01:04:54 ◼   ► And it makes those things better.

01:04:56 ◼   ► You know, not 100% better, but decently better.

01:04:59 ◼   ► So the MacBook One will get a little better.

01:05:02 ◼   ► I would also speculate,

01:05:03 ◼   ► I haven't heard anything about this yet,

01:05:04 ◼   ► but I would also speculate,

01:05:06 ◼   ► on the invitation to the event,

01:05:09 ◼   ► the invitation Apple sent out,

01:05:10 ◼   ► I know we don't wanna look too much into it,

01:05:12 ◼   ► however, it is pretty obvious on the invitation

01:05:14 ◼   ► that they have clearly featured

01:05:16 ◼   ► the colors of the metals they've been offering

01:05:19 ◼   ► on the iPhone.

01:05:20 ◼   ► They have the space gray, the rose gold,

01:05:22 ◼   ► the gold and the aluminum.

01:05:23 ◼   ► They have all those colors like kind of forming the logo

01:05:27 ◼   ► on the invitation.

01:05:29 ◼   ► So I have to imagine this indicates

01:05:31 ◼   ► that they're going to offer these colors on the new laptops.

01:05:34 ◼   ► Notably, they don't currently offer the pink,

01:05:37 ◼   ► or excuse me, rose gold.

01:05:38 ◼   ► They don't offer rose gold MacBook Ones yet.

01:05:42 ◼   ► And they don't offer any colors on the MacBook Pros yet.

01:05:45 ◼   ► It would be cool if they offered all four colors

01:05:47 ◼   ► on all the MacBook Pros.

01:05:49 ◼   ► And according to ATP TIFF, that might be the case.

01:05:53 ◼   ► So I'm looking forward, if they do that,

01:05:54 ◼   ► I would love to have those color options,

01:05:57 ◼   ► or more color options,

01:05:58 ◼   ► but I would love to at least start with those.

01:06:00 ◼   ► It'd be great to just have something different

01:06:02 ◼   ► from the plain aluminum that we've seen

01:06:04 ◼   ► for God knows how long, right?

01:06:07 ◼   ► - Oh, totally.

01:06:08 ◼   ► I bought my first Mac

01:06:10 ◼   ► when the polycarbonate MacBook was a thing.

01:06:13 ◼   ► And I remember wanting the,

01:06:15 ◼   ► what people called the Black Book,

01:06:17 ◼   ► which is basically a black plastic MacBook.

01:06:19 ◼   ► I wanted that thing so badly.

01:06:22 ◼   ► probably because I came from ThinkPads that were all black,

01:06:25 ◼   ► but to this day, I still think it looks

01:06:27 ◼   ► really, really, really good, and I wanted it so bad,

01:06:31 ◼   ► but it was like $150 or something like that.

01:06:33 ◼   ► The only difference was the case.

01:06:35 ◼   ► - And it clutched fingerprints like crazy.

01:06:37 ◼   ► Like that was-- - That I did not know.

01:06:38 ◼   ► - Neither, yeah, we had a couple of them

01:06:40 ◼   ► in the Tumblr office, a few people had 'em.

01:06:41 ◼   ► I got to see 'em during that time,

01:06:43 ◼   ► and they never looked good in person,

01:06:45 ◼   ► because, like, and neither of the, you know,

01:06:47 ◼   ► the white ones would have the discoloring palm rests,

01:06:50 ◼   ► And it wasn't actually from your hands necessarily.

01:06:53 ◼   ► The plastic would discolor with heat.

01:06:55 ◼   ► And it would also discolor if you had your hands all over it

01:06:57 ◼   ► and they were dirty.

01:06:58 ◼   ► But I got my top case replaced

01:07:00 ◼   ► in the middle of having my white MacBook.

01:07:02 ◼   ► With the replacement, I put one of those little

01:07:05 ◼   ► stick-on protectors on it,

01:07:06 ◼   ► like a clear stick-on protector on it.

01:07:08 ◼   ► So my hands never actually rested on it.

01:07:11 ◼   ► And it still discolored.

01:07:12 ◼   ► And yeah, it turns out that as we learned

01:07:14 ◼   ► with the white iPhone being delayed for almost a year,

01:07:17 ◼   ► remember that?

01:07:17 ◼   ► As we learned, making white plastic that ages well

01:07:20 ◼   ► stands up to heat is really hard.

01:07:21 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:07:22 ◼   ► And they just didn't do it right,

01:07:24 ◼   ► or they hadn't figured it out yet.

01:07:25 ◼   ► So yeah, the black one had a different finish.

01:07:28 ◼   ► The white one had like a glossy, you know, smooth finish.

01:07:31 ◼   ► The black one was like this weird matte,

01:07:32 ◼   ► almost rubbery finish, and it just showed

01:07:36 ◼   ► the slightest hint of finger oil,

01:07:37 ◼   ► just from like picking it up.

01:07:39 ◼   ► You had these giant oily fingerprints visible on the case.

01:07:42 ◼   ► It was really not good.

01:07:44 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:07:45 ◼   ► It was unfortunate, 'cause like,

01:07:46 ◼   ► when it was perfectly immaculate, it did look really nice.

01:07:49 ◼   ► But that lasted like a day and then that was it.

01:07:51 ◼   ► - The aluminum ones had the same problem back in the day.

01:07:54 ◼   ► Like I have one of the later non-unibody

01:07:58 ◼   ► before any unibody Apple portables came out, aluminum.

01:08:02 ◼   ► And that aluminum would get these weird smudges

01:08:06 ◼   ► like they didn't wipe off,

01:08:07 ◼   ► they would end up like discoloring the aluminum

01:08:09 ◼   ► from oils on your fingers or from just kids grossness.

01:08:12 ◼   ► Like you couldn't wash it off and it was not great.

01:08:15 ◼   ► And the new ones like on the MacBook Air,

01:08:17 ◼   ► I know because my kids grimy hands

01:08:18 ◼   ► are all over these things and now the kids have graduated up to or the computers have

01:08:22 ◼   ► graduated down to the kids like then and now they're using old MacBook Air and it just

01:08:26 ◼   ► even though it's the same color it's the same boring silver that it's always been it stands

01:08:31 ◼   ► up better to finger grease and grime and I think the the current crop of like the what

01:08:37 ◼   ► is it the space gray or whatever the darker color one that one seems like it should hold

01:08:42 ◼   ► up even better it's I think I think they finally figured out how to make a surface aluminum

01:08:47 ◼   ► surface that's durable and doesn't discolor and then different colors of it like the gold

01:08:51 ◼   ► and the space grey only improve that because the hardest one to get is the one that's like

01:08:56 ◼   ► the lightest or the closest to white which is the plain old silver so even if I hadn't

01:09:00 ◼   ► seen rumors about this which I had I would have fully expected just because the MacBook

01:09:04 ◼   ► One is available in those colors they'll all be available in those colors because it's

01:09:07 ◼   ► all just aluminum and they're making a million things anodized in different ways and I think

01:09:10 ◼   ► they've really got the anodizing and the surface treatment of this aluminum down at this point

01:09:15 ◼   ► So they totally should do that and I don't know if they're gonna charge more for them.

01:09:19 ◼   ► They didn't with the MacBook 1 and unlike the Blackbook which was whatever you know,

01:09:23 ◼   ► like I said, $150.

01:09:26 ◼   ► It's just a way to make them more attractive machines and if they have a pink one, that

01:09:31 ◼   ► will definitely help because that's the first sort of non-boring color.

01:09:34 ◼   ► Because the other ones are like, "Alright, well there are shades of gray and a gold that

01:09:39 ◼   ► barely looks gold."

01:09:40 ◼   ► Like I would like a red one, a blue one, a yellow one.

01:09:42 ◼   ► You know, we used to have multicolor iMacs and they were fun and we loved them.

01:09:46 ◼   ► Now we're still kind of timidly dipping our toe into colors that are not just different

01:09:52 ◼   ► shades of silver or brown.

01:09:56 ◼   ► And also, you know, just like the actual design of the MacBooks has changed so little in the

01:10:01 ◼   ► last 10 years.

01:10:03 ◼   ► Like going through the unibody transition and then going from unibody to retina, it

01:10:10 ◼   ► it still just kind of looks like the same laptop,

01:10:13 ◼   ► just, you know, thinner.

01:10:15 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:10:15 ◼   ► You know, like it still looks very similar.

01:10:19 ◼   ► And I think they look good.

01:10:21 ◼   ► You know, I think the current design does look good,

01:10:23 ◼   ► but it's pretty boring by now.

01:10:25 ◼   ► It's everywhere and, you know,

01:10:28 ◼   ► as Apple has gotten more popular,

01:10:29 ◼   ► this issue's even gotten worse,

01:10:31 ◼   ► 'cause I kind of feel like I want some room

01:10:33 ◼   ► for individuality, and I know I'm not gonna get

01:10:36 ◼   ► a huge amount of that, especially if I buy

01:10:38 ◼   ► a space gray one and show up to an Apple conference.

01:10:40 ◼   ► Like I know I'm not gonna get that much individuality there.

01:10:43 ◼   ► But I would like just something to push us

01:10:46 ◼   ► a little in that direction, you know.

01:10:47 ◼   ► Anyway, if ATP Tips was right,

01:10:50 ◼   ► there's also substantial updates to the MacBook Pro.

01:10:52 ◼   ► And this to me is more interesting.

01:10:54 ◼   ► 'Cause the MacBook One we've already seen,

01:10:56 ◼   ► I've already decided it's not for me.

01:10:58 ◼   ► A lot of people have decided that or that it is for them.

01:11:00 ◼   ► And the updates to the MacBook One

01:11:01 ◼   ► is probably gonna be a fairly minor one.

01:11:03 ◼   ► Whereas the update to the MacBook Pro is, if he's right,

01:11:06 ◼   ► rumored to be substantial.

01:11:09 ◼   ► And this is going to be a significant design update

01:11:13 ◼   ► because Skylake has enabled the laptop

01:11:15 ◼   ► to become thinner and lighter,

01:11:16 ◼   ► because they're gonna shave off the quote excess battery.

01:11:20 ◼   ► (laughs)

01:11:21 ◼   ► I love the content of that,

01:11:22 ◼   ► but I'm pretty sure that's how they look at it.

01:11:24 ◼   ► And you could argue whether it is or is not,

01:11:26 ◼   ► 'cause I'm sure I will argue that eventually again.

01:11:28 ◼   ► But I expect based on the information here,

01:11:32 ◼   ► I expect that the new MacBook Pro

01:11:35 ◼   ► will look like the MacBook One.

01:11:37 ◼   ► Just not that small, obviously,

01:11:39 ◼   ► but it has similar styling.

01:11:41 ◼   ► So also offered in the colored metals.

01:11:44 ◼   ► A thinner design, probably not tapered,

01:11:46 ◼   ► but a thinner design using Skylake chips.

01:11:49 ◼   ► I would expect roughly the 13 inch MacBook Pro

01:11:52 ◼   ► to be effectively a replacement

01:11:54 ◼   ► for the 13 inch Air at this point.

01:11:57 ◼   ► When they introduced the MacBook One,

01:11:59 ◼   ► fans of the Air were very disappointed

01:12:00 ◼   ► 'cause it seemed as though they were probably

01:12:03 ◼   ► not going to ever touch the Air again.

01:12:04 ◼   ► and that the long-wished-for retina air

01:12:07 ◼   ► was probably not going to happen,

01:12:08 ◼   ► that the MacBook One is the retina air.

01:12:11 ◼   ► And that seems, so far that seems to probably be correct.

01:12:14 ◼   ► But the new MacBook Pro, the 13-inch,

01:12:16 ◼   ► if you shave off 20% of the weight of a 13-inch or whatever,

01:12:20 ◼   ► if you shave off a significant chunk of that weight,

01:12:23 ◼   ► then, and make it a little bit thinner,

01:12:25 ◼   ► then the 13-inch MacBook Pro is very close

01:12:28 ◼   ► to the size and weight of a 13-inch air,

01:12:30 ◼   ► and its retina, and its newer and more modern.

01:12:33 ◼   ► And so, supposedly, that sounds really good,

01:12:35 ◼   ► like if that's all true.

01:12:37 ◼   ► And the rumor is also that it retains the same ports,

01:12:42 ◼   ► it's not like gonna lose tons of ports,

01:12:44 ◼   ► it's gonna retain the ports,

01:12:45 ◼   ► and just trade in the Thunderbolts

01:12:47 ◼   ► for new USB-C Thunderbolt 3 ports.

01:12:51 ◼   ► And if that's true, that's great,

01:12:53 ◼   ► that sounds like a great laptop.

01:12:54 ◼   ► Like the 15 or the 13, they're both,

01:12:58 ◼   ► Tipster says they're both gonna be like that.

01:13:01 ◼   ► I would love either of those, honestly.

01:13:02 ◼   ► The 13 would be a fantastic replacement for the MacBook Air,

01:13:06 ◼   ► at least the 13 inch version of the MacBook Air.

01:13:08 ◼   ► 11 inch Air fans, I'm sorry you're just screwed,

01:13:10 ◼   ► you gotta deal with the MacBook One.

01:13:11 ◼   ► But if you're a fan of the 13 inch Air,

01:13:14 ◼   ► I think the 13 inch Pro then, if this is all true,

01:13:17 ◼   ► that will be awesome.

01:13:19 ◼   ► That'll be a fantastic all around laptop.

01:13:21 ◼   ► It'll be thin and light and powerful

01:13:24 ◼   ► and will have a retina screen

01:13:25 ◼   ► and tons of ports for usefulness.

01:13:27 ◼   ► That sounds great.

01:13:29 ◼   ► The 15 inch will also become even more compelling.

01:13:32 ◼   ► So if this all works out, then the 15 inch

01:13:34 ◼   ► kind of like drops itself by like half a weight class

01:13:37 ◼   ► basically, so it becomes even thinner and lighter

01:13:40 ◼   ► and it's already, the current 15 is already pretty good

01:13:44 ◼   ► for a 15 inch.

01:13:45 ◼   ► This becomes even thinner and lighter.

01:13:46 ◼   ► I really hope this is all true.

01:13:48 ◼   ► I would love to see this come out next week.

01:13:51 ◼   ► If not, we'll probably have it at WBC maybe

01:13:54 ◼   ► or sometime between now and then.

01:13:55 ◼   ► But if you look at what's in this event,

01:13:57 ◼   ► you have the new iPad and then you have what we have

01:14:00 ◼   ► which is the new four-inch iPhone.

01:14:03 ◼   ► Those are both kinda like mid-grade to low-end products.

01:14:07 ◼   ► Oh, and also new watch bands, but not even,

01:14:10 ◼   ► and possibly a minor update to the watch,

01:14:12 ◼   ► but probably not even that.

01:14:13 ◼   ► You kinda have all these kinda low-end,

01:14:16 ◼   ► low-profile products.

01:14:18 ◼   ► I'm hoping the MacBooks are what makes the event

01:14:20 ◼   ► kinda complete then.

01:14:22 ◼   ► The MacBooks and the MacBook Pros would be like,

01:14:24 ◼   ► this is, it isn't just all boring low-end stuff,

01:14:27 ◼   ► it's also, hey, here's some new stuff

01:14:30 ◼   ► for the laptops that you're all using.

01:14:32 ◼   ► Here's significant new versions of these laptops.

01:14:35 ◼   ► I hope that's what's going on here.

01:14:36 ◼   ► Now, about that four-inch iPhone.

01:14:39 ◼   ► What do you guys think about that?

01:14:40 ◼   ► John, you used a four-inch device for so long,

01:14:42 ◼   ► would you get a four-inch iPhone?

01:14:44 ◼   ► - I can't go back now, I think.

01:14:45 ◼   ► I've been thinking about it,

01:14:46 ◼   ► and we have enough little iPod touches around the house.

01:14:49 ◼   ► In some ways, I miss the portability,

01:14:52 ◼   ► but I'm just so used to the big screen now.

01:14:55 ◼   ► I don't think I can go back.

01:14:57 ◼   ► The iPhone 6 does still feel a little bit unwieldy

01:14:59 ◼   ► my pocket but I don't, if I went to a store and I would, you know, my two years was up

01:15:04 ◼   ► and I needed a new phone, I think I'd pick the 6 size.

01:15:07 ◼   ► So I'm a convert, but I would assume that they are going to offer the smaller phone

01:15:13 ◼   ► and that the smaller phone will be cheaper.

01:15:15 ◼   ► In keeping with the trend that the Plus is more expensive than the 6, the smaller phone

01:15:20 ◼   ► will be less expensive than the 6 size devices, probably out of proportion to the cost savings

01:15:26 ◼   ► that they get from using a smaller screen, right?

01:15:28 ◼   ► Right, because they do get some cost savings

01:15:30 ◼   ► from using a smaller screen and a smaller battery.

01:15:33 ◼   ► And like all that stuff does cost less,

01:15:34 ◼   ► but not, you know, not that much less.

01:15:38 ◼   ► I think that this will be the lowest end

01:15:42 ◼   ► of the current generation of iPhones,

01:15:45 ◼   ► which is kind of a shame for the people

01:15:46 ◼   ► who are hoping for the best that Apple could pack

01:15:50 ◼   ► into a small package,

01:15:51 ◼   ► but I think they're going to be disappointed.

01:15:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't know.

01:15:55 ◼   ► It's funny because I definitely wanted all the new insides

01:16:00 ◼   ► when I got the six last, or I guess two years ago now.

01:16:03 ◼   ► But I really didn't want a bigger phone.

01:16:07 ◼   ► And to this day, the phone doesn't feel bad in my hand,

01:16:12 ◼   ► but we use a 5S as like a noise maker

01:16:17 ◼   ► when Declan is sleeping.

01:16:18 ◼   ► So I handle a 5S at least once a day.

01:16:21 ◼   ► And oh man, does that feel so much better in my hand.

01:16:24 ◼   ► It feels perfect in my hand, it really does.

01:16:28 ◼   ► And I think that's 95% size and a little bit the edges,

01:16:33 ◼   ► but mostly it's the size.

01:16:36 ◼   ► The problem though is that I don't know if I can go back

01:16:39 ◼   ► from a phone that's got this much screen real estate.

01:16:43 ◼   ► And so I think like Jon, I probably am a permanent convert.

01:16:48 ◼   ► I mean, I'm not a maniac, I'm not gonna go plus club,

01:16:50 ◼   ► but I think I'm a permanent convert in the six size category,

01:16:54 ◼   ► but gosh, I'm gonna have a real crisis of decision making

01:17:01 ◼   ► when they show us something that looks really pretty

01:17:06 ◼   ► but is the same size as a 5S.

01:17:08 ◼   ► - I have high hopes for this phone,

01:17:11 ◼   ► even though I don't plan to get one.

01:17:12 ◼   ► I'm glad that it's even rumored that it's very,

01:17:14 ◼   ► it looks like it's very likely to happen.

01:17:15 ◼   ► I'm glad that they care about the four inch size.

01:17:18 ◼   ► - iPhone 6 and 6 Plus sizes are good for a lot of people,

01:17:22 ◼   ► but not everyone.

01:17:23 ◼   ► And to totally abandon the four inch line,

01:17:26 ◼   ► I think would have been a mistake,

01:17:28 ◼   ► and would have really made life a little less convenient

01:17:31 ◼   ► for a lot of people.

01:17:33 ◼   ► So I'm really glad they're doing this.

01:17:34 ◼   ► I'm very happy that we're gonna have these options

01:17:36 ◼   ► in the lineup again for people who do want them.

01:17:38 ◼   ► And I'm glad that the option is just gonna be like,

01:17:41 ◼   ► oh, you can choose either a new giant phone

01:17:44 ◼   ► or an old piece of crap.

01:17:45 ◼   ► 'Cause it seems like the gap between,

01:17:47 ◼   ► If the rumored specs are correct,

01:17:49 ◼   ► it's gonna basically be a mini 6S

01:17:51 ◼   ► with maybe a little bit lower clock speed

01:17:54 ◼   ► for thermal reasons, but it seems like it's going to have

01:17:57 ◼   ► current generation hardware for the most part.

01:18:00 ◼   ► We'll see, I don't think we know really

01:18:01 ◼   ► what the camera's gonna be yet.

01:18:03 ◼   ► It probably won't be as good as the 6

01:18:04 ◼   ► just for size or cost reasons,

01:18:05 ◼   ► but it's probably gonna be close.

01:18:07 ◼   ► I think it's going to be a really nice product

01:18:12 ◼   ► for a lot of people,

01:18:13 ◼   ► and I'm glad Apple's gonna have it in line up.

01:18:14 ◼   ► I do think, you know, John, you know, you kinda,

01:18:17 ◼   ► you talked about this a little bit,

01:18:17 ◼   ► I do think it is kind of unfortunate

01:18:20 ◼   ► that Apple charges by size, so by pricing,

01:18:24 ◼   ► they are going to have to make this

01:18:25 ◼   ► like the lowest specced phone,

01:18:27 ◼   ► in addition to the, you know,

01:18:29 ◼   ► the kinda smallest one in the lineup.

01:18:31 ◼   ► It does kinda suck that people who get the small phone

01:18:34 ◼   ► are probably never gonna have the best hardware,

01:18:37 ◼   ► but it'll be better than using, you know,

01:18:39 ◼   ► two-year-old, three-year-old hardware, so.

01:18:41 ◼   ► You know, overall, pretty good.

01:18:44 ◼   ► I'm looking forward to it. Design wise, I'm totally with you guys. I really don't care

01:18:49 ◼   ► for the 6 physical design at all. I think, and the 6S made it slightly better by making

01:18:55 ◼   ► the finish on the case slightly less slippery, but not enough. I really do not like the little

01:19:02 ◼   ► slippery bar of soap design. I don't like that I have to use a case now. I use Apple's

01:19:07 ◼   ► leather case now just to give it grip. I don't like cases. I don't like having all the dust

01:19:11 ◼   ► to collect around the edge, I don't like the extra bulk

01:19:14 ◼   ► that they add, I don't like spending another 40 bucks

01:19:18 ◼   ► every time I buy a new phone.

01:19:19 ◼   ► Cases are a really inelegant solution,

01:19:23 ◼   ► and I know lots of people use them, and that's fine.

01:19:26 ◼   ► But surely it's better if you design a phone

01:19:29 ◼   ► that doesn't need a case for so many people.

01:19:31 ◼   ► Some people are gonna use a case regardless,

01:19:32 ◼   ► a lot of people are gonna use a case regardless.

01:19:34 ◼   ► I didn't use a case for any of my phones before this,

01:19:36 ◼   ► and it was fine.

01:19:37 ◼   ► And the 6 and the 6S, I need a case to hold them securely.

01:19:41 ◼   ► and that kinda sucks.

01:19:43 ◼   ► I'm hoping with the iPhone 7 design this fall,

01:19:46 ◼   ► I'm hoping that it improves

01:19:49 ◼   ► the real world holdability somehow.

01:19:53 ◼   ► I'm honestly not that hopeful that it will.

01:19:55 ◼   ► - I'm not as down on the sixth shape.

01:19:57 ◼   ► In fact, I kinda wish I could use it without a case

01:20:00 ◼   ► 'cause it's so nice to have the curved glass

01:20:02 ◼   ► and the case messes that up for edge swipes

01:20:04 ◼   ► and stuff like that. - Oh yes, oh yes.

01:20:05 ◼   ► - But on the other hand, I really like my leather case.

01:20:07 ◼   ► I like the fact that it is protected by this thin layer

01:20:10 ◼   ► stuff that can get nicked up and that I can replace that and that is grippy because the

01:20:14 ◼   ► leather is way more grippy than anything aluminum is ever going to be.

01:20:18 ◼   ► And I like that.

01:20:19 ◼   ► That's why I would use silicone cases for such a long time.

01:20:21 ◼   ► I like the grippiness.

01:20:23 ◼   ► But if a 7 is like this, like because I'll be getting a 7, you know, my 6 will, my two

01:20:27 ◼   ► years with my 6 will be up and I'll end up getting a 7 and if it's more or less like

01:20:31 ◼   ► the 6 but improved insides, I'm fine with it.

01:20:36 ◼   ► - So important question to go back to the four inch phone,

01:20:40 ◼   ► does it or does it not have a camera bulge?

01:20:43 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:20:44 ◼   ► - I'm gonna think no, right?

01:20:46 ◼   ► You gotta not have one.

01:20:48 ◼   ► - You know, it depends.

01:20:49 ◼   ► So the reason I bring up the seven also now is like,

01:20:51 ◼   ► you know, so we have this release that's literally

01:20:53 ◼   ► halfway between the six and the seven,

01:20:56 ◼   ► or the six S and the seven design releases.

01:20:59 ◼   ► This phone, obviously, they're gonna want it

01:21:01 ◼   ► to be in the lineup for a while.

01:21:03 ◼   ► They're not gonna want, you know,

01:21:04 ◼   ► we're not gonna make it look outdated in six months,

01:21:07 ◼   ► ideally.

01:21:08 ◼   ► So I'm guessing, so you figure like,

01:21:11 ◼   ► will the design of the new four inch phone

01:21:14 ◼   ► more closely resemble the 6S or the 7?

01:21:18 ◼   ► Or the 5S, yeah that was one of the earlier rumors,

01:21:20 ◼   ► I don't see that.

01:21:21 ◼   ► - Well, 'cause the 5S didn't have a bulge,

01:21:23 ◼   ► so that's what makes me think that if they're making

01:21:25 ◼   ► a new four inch phone, the only reason you need the bulge

01:21:28 ◼   ► is we need to have the best camera,

01:21:30 ◼   ► and the best camera is just too big to fit.

01:21:32 ◼   ► If it's too big to fit,

01:21:33 ◼   ► won't give you the best camera and they're gonna have a non-bulging camera on the 7 it seems like so

01:21:37 ◼   ► they could even put that in there if they want to have the good camera it just seems like they're

01:21:41 ◼   ► they're non-bulge options are so many including actually making including actually making the

01:21:47 ◼   ► thing a little bit thicker because hey this isn't the fanciest one it's a little bit thicker it

01:21:51 ◼   ► could still be thinner than the 5s and still not have a bulge i think i feel like the bulge days

01:21:55 ◼   ► for this class are probably over and the only reason the ipod touch still has is because no

01:22:00 ◼   ► no one cares about the iPod touch,

01:22:01 ◼   ► and because the iPod touch is insanely thin.

01:22:03 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:22:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, I hope it doesn't have a bulge.

01:22:08 ◼   ► But yeah, so anyway, I'm really curious to see,

01:22:11 ◼   ► will the design of the new four-inch phone

01:22:13 ◼   ► give us any hints towards the design of the seven, basically?

01:22:17 ◼   ► Will it indicate where they're going?

01:22:21 ◼   ► Or is it just gonna look old?

01:22:23 ◼   ► Or the sixth design, I think, is ugly, certainly.

01:22:27 ◼   ► I think it has very little personality.

01:22:30 ◼   ► If you look at almost every previous iPhone,

01:22:33 ◼   ► except maybe the 3G, if you look at all the other ones,

01:22:36 ◼   ► I think they have a more distinct look.

01:22:39 ◼   ► If you look at the 6, I think it looks like

01:22:41 ◼   ► every Android phone, and part of that's 'cause

01:22:42 ◼   ► Android's been copying Apple like crazy,

01:22:44 ◼   ► but part of that is also just like,

01:22:46 ◼   ► there's less about the 6 that is visually distinctive.

01:22:51 ◼   ► Whereas the 5 and the 5S, these were like

01:22:53 ◼   ► these beautiful, pretty unique looking objects,

01:22:58 ◼   ► and the four before that, again,

01:23:00 ◼   ► like you know, this really like unique,

01:23:01 ◼   ► like double glass kind of thing.

01:23:03 ◼   ► These were like really distinctive looking objects.

01:23:05 ◼   ► The six just isn't distinctive, it just looks like a blob,

01:23:07 ◼   ► and it feels like a blob, and the back I think is ugly.

01:23:11 ◼   ► - I like the six look better than the five,

01:23:12 ◼   ► I never liked the five design,

01:23:14 ◼   ► it just seemed like a boring tub of aluminum,

01:23:16 ◼   ► chamfered edge was not enough to redeem it for me,

01:23:19 ◼   ► it's like just aesthetically, and I think the six,

01:23:22 ◼   ► The 6 was not the first phone to use curved glass at the edge, many other phones including

01:23:26 ◼   ► Android phones did that first, so, but I think Apple was wise to pick that up.

01:23:30 ◼   ► The reason I think the 6 looks better is because I like that, I like both the appearance and

01:23:34 ◼   ► the feel of the glass curving into the rest of the case.

01:23:37 ◼   ► And the back of it doesn't look that impressive but I don't think it has to.

01:23:40 ◼   ► I think it's pleasingly smooth, I think they did an admirable job of blending in those

01:23:44 ◼   ► weird antenna lines, like that looks expensive and fancy to me even if aesthetically it doesn't

01:23:50 ◼   ► look particularly nice.

01:23:52 ◼   ► If this case is to be believed,

01:23:54 ◼   ► they've changed that antenna line

01:23:56 ◼   ► to look a little bit more swoopy

01:23:58 ◼   ► and a little bit less utilitarian,

01:24:00 ◼   ► but we don't know what the front of it looks like.

01:24:01 ◼   ► I assume it looks the same,

01:24:02 ◼   ► but I think you can change the look of the front by,

01:24:06 ◼   ► I mean, adjusting chin sizes or, you know,

01:24:10 ◼   ► you could do much more interesting things

01:24:12 ◼   ► with the front of the iPhone

01:24:13 ◼   ► than they're currently doing now.

01:24:14 ◼   ► And the back of it, they're anodizing it in various colors,

01:24:17 ◼   ► all of which are very subtle.

01:24:18 ◼   ► I would say the same thing.

01:24:19 ◼   ► I mean, I've been saying this for years that,

01:24:21 ◼   ► you know, and I liked the 5C.

01:24:23 ◼   ► I liked the fact that they offered it

01:24:24 ◼   ► in a bunch of rainbow colors.

01:24:26 ◼   ► Why can't you do that for the expensive phones?

01:24:28 ◼   ► Why do you have to choose between the fastest insides

01:24:31 ◼   ► or the fun colors?

01:24:32 ◼   ► There, you know, we all know one or two people

01:24:34 ◼   ► who ended up getting a 5C, at least partially,

01:24:36 ◼   ► because it's a more fun color.

01:24:38 ◼   ► And sometimes they would sacrifice.

01:24:39 ◼   ► They would say, well, I know it's not as fast

01:24:41 ◼   ► and I would really like the faster one,

01:24:43 ◼   ► but I really want to have a yellow phone

01:24:44 ◼   ► 'cause it looks cool.

01:24:46 ◼   ► Like the 5C was its own case.

01:24:47 ◼   ► And I thought that was interesting and fun.

01:24:49 ◼   ► and the top end phones still don't do that.

01:24:51 ◼   ► So I think there's plenty of room to visually differentiate

01:24:54 ◼   ► but if this one just ends up being a nicer 6,

01:24:57 ◼   ► I will be fine with that.

01:24:58 ◼   ► And I think the market will be fine with it too.

01:25:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, I feel like I'm between you guys

01:25:03 ◼   ► in that I definitely think that the 5 looked great

01:25:08 ◼   ► and is probably my favorite of all the iPhone designs,

01:25:12 ◼   ► but the 6 looks really good.

01:25:14 ◼   ► And I made the tragic mistake of taking my 6s

01:25:18 ◼   ► out of my case as you guys were talking,

01:25:20 ◼   ► and now I'm holding it naked in my hands.

01:25:22 ◼   ► - Don't spill water on it.

01:25:23 ◼   ► - I will attempt not to.

01:25:25 ◼   ► This phone does, I mean, I like the leather case a lot.

01:25:29 ◼   ► I've had Apple leather cases since I can remember,

01:25:32 ◼   ► pretty much since they were offered.

01:25:33 ◼   ► But this phone without a case on it

01:25:36 ◼   ► does feel really good in the hand,

01:25:39 ◼   ► in that it's more, it's both more and less comfortable,

01:25:42 ◼   ► right, because it's more comfortable

01:25:43 ◼   ► in that the edges are a little easier on the hand,

01:25:46 ◼   ► but it's less comfortable in that it's bigger.

01:25:48 ◼   ► In fact, it's a little too big if I'm trying to reach

01:25:50 ◼   ► from, with my right hand, from the bottom right

01:25:53 ◼   ► where my thumb is, all the way up to the upper left.

01:25:55 ◼   ► And the, I don't even remember what it's called,

01:25:58 ◼   ► the little mode where everything kind of drops down

01:26:01 ◼   ► a little bit, where you double--

01:26:02 ◼   ► - Reachability.

01:26:03 ◼   ► - Yes, that's right, that's right.

01:26:05 ◼   ► That is just such a hack.

01:26:07 ◼   ► But, I don't know, it's tough because I both love

01:26:11 ◼   ► and wish for less in the six,

01:26:15 ◼   ► but I don't think I could go back to a smaller screen.

01:26:17 ◼   ► I really don't.

01:26:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't think I could either.

01:26:20 ◼   ► I mean, it's like when you move up monitor sizes

01:26:23 ◼   ► on your computer, it's really hard to ever move down.

01:26:26 ◼   ► I think the same thing with the phone,

01:26:27 ◼   ► if not even more so, 'cause it's just how often

01:26:29 ◼   ► you use a phone.

01:26:30 ◼   ► I think once you move up to a big screen size,

01:26:34 ◼   ► I think moving back down would,

01:26:37 ◼   ► you could probably get used to it after like a week,

01:26:40 ◼   ► but during that week, you'd be regretting

01:26:42 ◼   ► every single minute getting that phone,

01:26:44 ◼   ► and you might return it or, yeah, I don't know.

01:26:46 ◼   ► I think moving back would be difficult, but not impossible.

01:26:50 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:26:51 ◼   ► - But yeah, I don't know.

01:26:51 ◼   ► I mean the fact is, I'm actually thinking about

01:26:53 ◼   ► getting the Plus in the next generation.

01:26:56 ◼   ► - You're an animal.

01:26:57 ◼   ► - Because as I said, Mike might have been right.

01:26:59 ◼   ► - This is how we're gonna get you into an iPad.

01:27:01 ◼   ► Your phone is just gonna keep getting bigger and bigger

01:27:02 ◼   ► until you realize you're holding a 15 inch iPad Pro

01:27:05 ◼   ► and you're like, "Boy, this phone seems really big."

01:27:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, well let me explain my possible Plus lust

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