161: Dark Mode Is Your Hat


00:00:00   You ever gone back recently to a trackpad that actually has a button, like a separate button area that you can't just click the whole thing you ever used?

00:00:06   Well, the one that we had of that, the non-unibody MacBook Pro, the button had been so filled with child filth that it would like not click down or like it stuck down.

00:00:17   Like it physically would no longer. Yeah. So I guess that won't happen with the forestretch. I guess that'll just get at like an even crust of disgustingness. Kids are gross, man.

00:00:27   So we should do a little bit of follow up.

00:00:29   And one of you wants to talk about cellular service on Macs.

00:00:33   A couple of listeners gave us this.

00:00:35   We talked a lot about the Mac last show, the viability of the Mac,

00:00:39   whether it's going to be replaced by the iPad, if it's a dead platform, all that stuff.

00:00:43   And multiple people asked us about a topic that has come up on the show before,

00:00:49   but didn't come up on the last episode.

00:00:51   It's related to the question of, and I think Casey maybe was talking about this,

00:00:54   is how you can go anywhere with an iPad and do anything,

00:00:58   because it's got a cellular connection, and it's got Wi-Fi,

00:01:01   and it's kind of all in one.

00:01:02   And yeah, if you have a laptop, you can tether it,

00:01:03   but then you also need your phone,

00:01:04   and you're draining your phone's battery.

00:01:06   And we didn't take the next step and talk about the topic,

00:01:09   the evergreen topic of why do Macs

00:01:12   not have cellular connections?

00:01:14   What is it like?

00:01:15   Because a lot of people think that would make

00:01:18   the Mac a stronger competitor to even the pro iPads,

00:01:21   especially now that the Macs are very small.

00:01:22   You could have a MacBook one second-generation MacBook one with better battery life a faster CPU

00:01:27   and a cellular connection that would surely give a

00:01:32   An iPad Pro or run for its money as that single lightweight machine that you can take everywhere and work from anywhere with

00:01:40   Why is it the max?

00:01:42   After all this time don't have cellular and I seem to recall last time we talked about it

00:01:46   We didn't really we had some vague ideas, but at this point years later

00:01:51   I think most are vague ideas of like well they want to reserve that for the phone

00:01:55   And I think you should use your phone to the it's like now now

00:01:57   What's the excuse so I think that the problem Apple has with putting?

00:02:01   Cellulent modem in and in a MacBook or MacBook Pro is twofold one

00:02:06   It's more things to take up space and actually come to think of a battery life

00:02:11   You know things have to get ever thinner or so we seem to think anyway

00:02:15   And two why would you not have an iPhone with you you have an iPhone you have a way to test

00:02:21   tether it to your Mac, why would you ever need an onboard connection on your Mac?

00:02:25   Now of course this argument falls completely on its face when you point out, well, there's

00:02:30   iPads with cellular connections.

00:02:31   In fact, Casey, you have an iPad with a cellular connection.

00:02:35   And I have an iPad with a cellular connection because I don't want to have to tether to

00:02:38   my phone anytime I want to get online outside of the house, not when I'm not near Wi-Fi.

00:02:43   So I don't know that I would buy a Mac that had a cellular connection, but it certainly

00:02:48   is appealing and it certainly would make me think twice about an iPad Pro if I was trying

00:02:55   to like decide between an iPad Pro with cellular or say a MacBook One with cellular. I don't

00:03:00   know, Marco, how do you think about it?

00:03:02   >> I would love a MacBook with cellular. I would absolutely love it. But as we discussed,

00:03:08   you know, years ago when we first covered this topic, I think nothing has really changed

00:03:11   and the way that the software environment on the Mac is designed in most cases, most

00:03:18   Most of the apps are designed, the system services

00:03:19   are designed to assume they are on WiFi all the time

00:03:23   and to assume they can use large amounts of bandwidth.

00:03:26   The system updater that could download an update

00:03:29   that's hundreds of megs, iTunes that can background

00:03:31   download new episodes of TV shows that you buy,

00:03:34   and stuff like that.

00:03:35   And, granted, a lot of these things are things

00:03:36   that are maybe fading out of favor, but they still happen.

00:03:39   You have all sorts of software updates happening

00:03:42   all the time in the background automatically,

00:03:44   and not just from Apple.

00:03:45   it could be Adobe's updater and everything too.

00:03:48   There's so much stuff in the Mac environment

00:03:52   that assumes that if it has a connection,

00:03:56   it can download large chunks of data

00:03:57   in the hundreds of megs range.

00:03:59   And there was change in the APIs,

00:04:03   I think with Mountain Lion,

00:04:04   I think it was around Mountain Lion time,

00:04:06   when they moved to NSURL session,

00:04:09   where they unified the API between iOS and Mac,

00:04:13   and NSURLSession has these global flags on sessions

00:04:16   where you can say, on any connection I run in this session,

00:04:20   allow or don't allow cellular access.

00:04:23   So if the connection is cellular, you as the app maker

00:04:26   could kind of opt out of using it or opt into using it

00:04:29   if you wanted to.

00:04:31   So you could say, if something is important,

00:04:34   like if you open up a Twitter app

00:04:35   and you're trying to fetch the timeline,

00:04:37   use cellular data for that,

00:04:39   'cause that's probably what the user wants.

00:04:40   But if you're checking a background update

00:04:42   if there's any updates to your app, if you're Adobe,

00:04:45   then maybe wait until WiFi for that.

00:04:48   So that system's been there for a few years,

00:04:50   but the reality is I don't think any apps

00:04:53   meaningfully are really using it,

00:04:54   especially since there's no reason for them to use it

00:04:56   because there are no cellular Macs.

00:04:58   (laughs)

00:04:59   So unfortunately, I just think the software environment

00:05:03   is so wasteful of data by default

00:05:06   that I think it would just result in way too much data usage

00:05:09   and I think Apple probably noticed that too.

00:05:12   And also, on iOS, you have the App Store and App Review

00:05:16   to enforce that and to monitor that.

00:05:18   App Review does monitor for excessive bandwidth usage.

00:05:21   They have certain metrics like you can't use

00:05:23   more than X megabytes and X minutes

00:05:25   unless the user's streaming media or something like that.

00:05:27   There are certain limits that they at least

00:05:29   used to monitor for, they probably still do.

00:05:31   Anyway, all that is to say that on the Mac

00:05:34   you don't really have the software environment

00:05:36   conducive to sipping data carefully when you're on cellular.

00:05:41   - You know, it's funny you bring that up.

00:05:43   I agree with you, but have you used Trip Mode?

00:05:46   Have you heard about this?

00:05:47   - I haven't.

00:05:48   Is that some kind of like little firewall thing,

00:05:49   like little snitch or what?

00:05:51   - Sort of kinda.

00:05:52   I think that it might have been Jason Snell

00:05:54   that turned me onto this.

00:05:55   I forget exactly who it was,

00:05:56   but the tagline for this app is your mobile data savior,

00:06:01   and it is not only for the Mac, it also works on Windows.

00:06:04   And what it basically does is when it detects that you're tethered or on some other sort

00:06:11   of low bandwidth connection, it will flip into a different mode where it will prevent

00:06:18   every app from getting to the internet except the ones you whitelist.

00:06:22   And it'll also keep track of how much data each of these apps is using.

00:06:26   And so I have this installed on my laptop because on the rare occasions that I do tether,

00:06:33   Even though I have a crud load of data, way more than I would ever use in a month, I still

00:06:37   want to be sure that I'm not doing something like, I don't know, downloading an episode

00:06:40   of Mad Men.

00:06:41   Right, Marco?

00:06:42   Mmm.

00:06:43   See, I don't buy any of these excuses because we're so much farther down the road.

00:06:48   Like, in the beginning, when, you know, cellular was just coming to iPads and Apple was first

00:06:53   making iPhones, sure, but as Marco pointed out, they added this, the beginnings of these

00:06:57   APIs a long time ago.

00:06:59   It's a problem for Apple to solve for sure,

00:07:01   but it can be solved.

00:07:02   Like it's all it takes is some new software

00:07:05   and you know, like the trip mode thing is a great example.

00:07:09   Like they're not even the OS maker.

00:07:10   Apple could implement something like that

00:07:12   or a new set of APIs or make it opt in

00:07:14   or like this is their problem to solve.

00:07:15   Same thing with space in the case,

00:07:17   same thing with battery life.

00:07:18   Like we have the technology, we can rebuild it.

00:07:22   Like this is a thing that we could actually do.

00:07:25   And you say, oh, but it's so hard,

00:07:26   it's gonna take a long time.

00:07:27   Yeah, but it's been a long time.

00:07:29   And so it was like, have you been working on this

00:07:31   for three years?

00:07:32   Or are you just like, well, it'll always be impossible

00:07:35   and we should never even try it.

00:07:36   'Cause it just, every time it comes up, we all say,

00:07:40   not that they all have to have cellular, right?

00:07:42   But one model, pick one model to be like the,

00:07:46   bring this Mac everywhere with you

00:07:48   and you will be able to get online everywhere.

00:07:50   And we know most people aren't gonna buy it

00:07:52   'cause who wants to pay for, just like people,

00:07:54   most people don't buy cellular iPads

00:07:55   'cause who wants to pay for another cell connection

00:07:57   or whatever, right?

00:07:59   But surely it has enough utility

00:08:03   that if they were paying more attention to the Mac line,

00:08:05   they would say, we can sell this.

00:08:08   This is a value add feature.

00:08:09   People will pay more for it.

00:08:11   It will make the product more attractive.

00:08:13   Would they sell more cellular Macs percentage wise

00:08:16   than they do cellular iPads?

00:08:18   Probably not.

00:08:19   It would probably be less than,

00:08:20   I bet the percentage of cellular iPads is super low anyway,

00:08:22   but they keep making them

00:08:23   because for the people who use them, they love them.

00:08:26   Imagine if you said, you know what,

00:08:27   iPads aren't gonna have cellular anymore,

00:08:28   just tell it to your phone.

00:08:29   People would be pissed because they're used to that feature.

00:08:33   And it took a lot to get, you know,

00:08:36   the cell phone feature on iPads and an iOS working

00:08:38   with all these different APIs.

00:08:39   I don't know.

00:08:40   I feel like after so many years,

00:08:42   any excuse you had about how difficult it might be,

00:08:45   it now changes into an excuse of like,

00:08:48   I guess you just didn't decide it was important

00:08:49   because now enough time has passed

00:08:51   that if you had decided it was important,

00:08:52   we'd be three years into the transition period

00:08:54   and we'd be well on our way to it being a thing.

00:08:57   And when they did that new API, I thought,

00:08:59   oh, this is the beginning, like a few more years

00:09:01   and then they'll have this rolled out.

00:09:02   But I guess they just don't think there's enough

00:09:06   of a market for it to justify all the time

00:09:10   and expense of changing the APIs and everything like that.

00:09:12   I don't know, it just seems like another missed opportunity

00:09:15   on the Mac, where if the Mac was selling much better

00:09:17   and making them much more money

00:09:18   or had more growth potential or some combination of those,

00:09:21   this would be an obvious thing.

00:09:23   In the same way that larger iPads and a stylus

00:09:25   obvious in iPads, but Apple didn't pull the trigger on that for many, many years.

00:09:30   And the iPad—Apple certainly thinks the iPad has more growth potential than the Mac,

00:09:33   it seems.

00:09:34   So anyway, I'm sad that there's still no cellular Macs, although I don't expect any at the

00:09:39   upcoming Apple event, which we'll talk about a little later.

00:09:41   Yeah, and real-time follow-up from the chat room, from the white box in the chat room.

00:09:46   This person reminded me of the photos of the prototype MacBook Pro with an integrated 3G

00:09:52   cellular modem.

00:09:53   for MacRumors in 2011.

00:09:55   And it's a really kind of weird looking,

00:09:58   it looks like a MacBook Pro,

00:09:59   but it has like an extendable antenna

00:10:01   on the side of the screen.

00:10:02   We'll put a link in the show notes.

00:10:03   - You know, I've been using tethering on laptops

00:10:07   while traveling for 10 years now, literally.

00:10:11   Like I was going through pictures earlier.

00:10:13   I'm going to Tumblr tomorrow

00:10:15   to kind of give a quick little talk about the history,

00:10:17   and I was going through pictures.

00:10:18   And literally 10 years ago, I have a picture of me

00:10:21   using a MacBook with a cellular modem plugged into the side of it, a little USB thing. And

00:10:28   before that I was using Bluetooth tethering with my old Motorola flip phone. And tethering

00:10:33   is awesome on laptops. If you have a laptop, you probably want this if you ever use it

00:10:38   out and about. If you ever use it while traveling or if you work in coffee shops or whatever.

00:10:42   The dream of ubiquitous Wi-Fi never really came true. Everyone thought that cities would

00:10:46   just be covered in Wi-Fi and everywhere you went there was Wi-Fi. It turns out maybe 20%

00:10:50   maybe 20% of the places you go there's Wi-Fi,

00:10:52   and it might suck and it might be insecure,

00:10:54   which is a big problem these days,

00:10:56   and it might be slow, it might be metered,

00:10:58   but the dream of this free, ubiquitous, everywhere coverage

00:11:03   and no security problems and always fast Wi-Fi

00:11:06   just never came true.

00:11:07   There's so many reasons to tether

00:11:09   and to use your own cellular connections,

00:11:12   and as time goes on, those reasons just increase

00:11:15   as we get more and more mobile.

00:11:17   Laptops keep getting smaller and even more compelling

00:11:19   to bring with you if you're going somewhere

00:11:21   and you wanna get something done on a laptop.

00:11:23   Especially like you look at the MacBook One

00:11:25   or the upcoming Skylake MacBook Pros,

00:11:27   which we'll talk about soon.

00:11:29   These things keep getting smaller and better

00:11:31   and cellular connections keep getting faster

00:11:34   and we do have data caps these days,

00:11:37   but we also have now these pooled data plans

00:11:39   where you can add another device for 20 bucks a month.

00:11:43   Back 10 years ago, I was paying 60 bucks a month

00:11:45   just for that cell modem.

00:11:46   And now you can get 'em for 20 bucks a month,

00:11:48   just add it to your existing plan or whatever.

00:11:50   So it seems like this would be the time to do that

00:11:53   if for some reason that time hasn't come yet,

00:11:56   might as well do it now, right?

00:11:57   But it just does seem like Apple doesn't care

00:11:59   and it seems like this is something they,

00:12:02   they obviously did prototype it,

00:12:03   they obviously decided not to do it

00:12:05   and you know, John, I think you're right.

00:12:06   Like if they wanted to do this on the Mac, they could.

00:12:10   The fact is, you know, the software environment

00:12:12   isn't there for it now, but yeah,

00:12:14   they've had 10 years to work on it

00:12:16   and they pretty much haven't.

00:12:18   So that does make me sad, and I will keep tethering,

00:12:22   and it just feels like such a weird hack to tether,

00:12:26   'cause tethering doesn't actually work that well

00:12:29   in practice.

00:12:30   Once you plug in, it's fine,

00:12:32   but if you're doing anything besides a USB connection,

00:12:35   it is always a little bit flaky.

00:12:37   Plus, not to mention, then it drains your phone battery.

00:12:39   So there's so many reasons not to tether,

00:12:43   or to tether over cable only, which is clunky.

00:12:46   So it does make me sad that we probably won't see this from Macs because I think if they

00:12:51   can justify it for the iPad, might as well do it for Macs too.

00:12:56   Well, all those prototypes that they made, you know, the 2011 pictures or whatever, like

00:13:00   what they learned from those first efforts is all the things we talked about, like, "Oh,

00:13:03   it uses a lot of data," or "Our environment is not set up for this," and "It drains

00:13:07   our battery more," and whatever.

00:13:09   And all that does is let you know how much is it—what is it going to take to do this?

00:13:13   And then they do the calculation.

00:13:14   what it's going to take, this is the potential upside, and they just keep saying no. And, you

00:13:18   know, and again, like I said, if the max sold more, there was more of an upside. If they felt

00:13:22   like there was more demand, like a million combinations, because you could say, oh,

00:13:25   if there was more demand, they would do it. But also, if they sold 20 times as many max,

00:13:28   because that would increase the number of, assuming the demand is proportional, right,

00:13:32   then that would, you know, there's just so many factors that are working against them doing it.

00:13:35   But the longer time goes on, the more it kind of stands out to me as a weirdness, because

00:13:41   Eventually, you would hope that the battery cost and the size cost or whatever of doing

00:13:47   cellular would be, they're decreasing as a proportion of the overall available, you know,

00:13:52   I mean I guess you can't decrease transmit across that much because you've got to reach

00:13:56   the tower and everything, but all the other associated stuff, how big is the chip you

00:13:59   have to put in there, how much power does that chip take, how much room does it take,

00:14:04   how much does it cost, like all those other factors, time should be on your side, and

00:14:08   eventually it should be like, maybe like when they added the FM radio to the iPod, you know

00:14:13   what, what the hell, throw it in there, but you know there's a software part of it that

00:14:18   they're obviously behind on, but you know the other thing that could help there is like

00:14:20   Margaret was talking about, what if the cost of cellular connections and data continues

00:14:25   to go down, and five, ten years from now, unlimited data connections are standard and

00:14:31   you don't pay a lot for them, and it costs nothing to add, and it's just like, it just

00:14:34   seems like it's got to happen eventually, or the Mac could just go away entirely. But

00:14:37   But anyway, I miss it and I would buy one.

00:14:40   - I totally don't buy any argument

00:14:42   that it's a hardware limitation

00:14:43   or that it would be too costly in the hardware

00:14:45   because the iPad is the biggest counter example.

00:14:47   If they can offer it in the iPad since 2010

00:14:52   for $130 premium, then certainly they can offer it

00:14:55   in the higher priced, larger and bigger

00:14:59   battery MacBook Pro line.

00:15:01   Like there's no reason why, if it's in the iPad,

00:15:05   you can totally do it in the MacBooks.

00:15:08   - I mean, it stands to reason.

00:15:09   I don't know enough about the hardware,

00:15:10   but it certainly stands to reason in my head

00:15:12   that that's the case.

00:15:13   - PC manufacturers also offer this.

00:15:16   Like, this is not, it's not like no one's

00:15:18   ever done this before.

00:15:19   Like, you can buy a ThinkPad with a cell connection in it

00:15:21   for like, also about 10 years, I think.

00:15:24   So like, it can be done.

00:15:26   They just have chosen not to do it.

00:15:28   And that, I think, is unfortunate,

00:15:29   'cause I wish they offered that.

00:15:31   And I think they could charge a good premium for it,

00:15:34   Maybe 200 bucks, I'd easily pay 200 bucks more.

00:15:36   We'll see.

00:15:37   I don't have high hopes for that, honestly.

00:15:40   - Fair enough, now moving on.

00:15:41   We got a really interesting reminder from A-Tan Shulman,

00:15:46   who wrote in to remind us that in February of 2015,

00:15:51   it was discovered that the new Photos app

00:15:53   contains something called UXKit.

00:15:56   And we'll put a couple links in the show notes,

00:15:58   one to Jason Snell's Six Colors,

00:15:59   and one to a friend of the show, Brent Simmons' blog.

00:16:02   It appears that it's basically a reimplementation of UIKit, which is what's used to build apps

00:16:09   on the iPhone, on top of AppKit, which is what's used to write apps on the Mac.

00:16:16   And it's an interesting thing to think about, well, as these platforms kind of crawl ever

00:16:23   closer to one another, do we think maybe this will be a new thing that maybe, for example,

00:16:29   at WWDC this year. Maybe Apple will release UXKit and make it easier for people like Marco,

00:16:34   who don't really write Mac apps, to write an app on the Mac by using an API that's familiar to him.

00:16:40   **Matt Stauffer:** I think we talked about this at the time.

00:16:42   **Brent Harned:** I think so.

00:16:43   **Matt Stauffer** I think at that time Brent's post had also come out. It's like the consensus

00:16:47   then I still think is the same now, which is like when we all saw photos and these other apps that

00:16:51   look so much like their iOS counterparts, it stands to reason. It's like, oh, but a lot of

00:16:55   of people would say, oh, all they did was port the iOS applications to the Mac and sort

00:16:59   of Mac-ify them a little bit. And so many things in them were similar. And UXKit is

00:17:03   kind of like, well, we know they had a Photos app on iOS. And we know this one visually

00:17:08   and structurally is very similar to that. And so it stands to reason that if they wanted

00:17:12   to make the development of the iPhoto replacement faster, they could say, is there some way

00:17:19   that we can reuse, if not the code directly, then at the very least some of the structure

00:17:24   of the application and some of the knowledge or whatever.

00:17:27   Like is there a way that we can take an iOS application

00:17:31   and even if you're just using the sort of big box diagram

00:17:35   of how the pieces fit together

00:17:36   and what the class names are and everything like that,

00:17:37   can we do that?

00:17:38   Well, you could have this UX kit thing,

00:17:40   which is kind of like a UI kit like wrapper

00:17:41   on top of AppKit so that the Mac looks a little bit more

00:17:45   like iOS from the perspective of this code you're writing,

00:17:48   but you would only do it

00:17:50   if you were coming from that direction.

00:17:52   And Brent Simmons' post is mostly skeptical about the idea

00:17:56   that this would ever be a thing

00:17:57   that they would throw out to developers.

00:17:58   And it's hard to tell because very often,

00:18:00   Apple does dog food its own APIs,

00:18:03   first in its own applications, then like a year later,

00:18:06   at WWDC, they're like, "Oh, here you go."

00:18:08   And they don't mention, like, "Oh, and by the way,

00:18:09   we've been using this for a year or two years

00:18:11   in our own applications to sort of work out the kinks."

00:18:13   But they've done that with so many other technologies.

00:18:15   But then again, there are other things

00:18:16   that they use in their applications

00:18:18   that they never offer up, like the ProKit framework,

00:18:20   they used for Aperture back in the day, and I think Final Cut Pro, like the weird, small,

00:18:26   dark-colored widgets, and like those things were all—there was a ProKit framework they

00:18:29   would, if you had those apps installed, would occasionally get updates.

00:18:32   We are very lucky they didn't offer that for anybody else to use.

00:18:35   Well, I mean, but I'm saying, like, it was—

00:18:37   The last thing the world needs is more ProKit apps.

00:18:39   They didn't just build one app on it, like, "Oh, we have this weird code base and we

00:18:43   do this thing."

00:18:44   They built multiple apps on it, but it never graduated to the level, which I assume that

00:18:48   was also you know or either a wrapper on top of AppKit or its own weird thing but

00:18:52   it never came out into public so I still think there is room as as Marco talked

00:18:58   about the last time for Apple to introduce something that makes it easier

00:19:01   for people with UIKit either code or expertise or both to make Mac apps but I

00:19:08   don't know if UXKit is it maybe UXKit is one attempt at what that

00:19:13   might be like and remember the guys at IconFactory did that chameleon framework

00:19:17   which was another sort of thing where it's a re-implementation of the UI kit API on top of the Mac to help them because they had

00:19:23   UI kit applications that they wanted to bring to the Mac

00:19:25   All those things are like that

00:19:29   They're kind of technical marvels that they work at all

00:19:31   But when you start to suggest the idea that this would be like the one

00:19:36   Recommended way to make Mac apps like Apple would say hey you should use this to make Mac apps

00:19:40   Like I don't think Apple wants to muddy the water

00:19:42   I think they want to have a clearer answer and especially with Swift in the mix now

00:19:45   I'm not entirely sure that Apple is ready to come out with something that will help

00:19:52   iOS developers write Mac apps better.

00:19:56   Whether they think it's even, again, the same thing with investment.

00:19:58   Like yeah, they could do it, they could do lots of different things here, but is it worth

00:20:01   the investment?

00:20:02   It would take a lot of developers and it would be difficult to do, and what would our payoff

00:20:07   be?

00:20:08   So obviously for their own internal applications they decided it was worth it, and so they

00:20:12   got UXKit and they'll probably use it, and if it's not already used in multiple places

00:20:15   that might be used in other places going forward

00:20:17   as a way to make it cheaper for Apple

00:20:19   to bring quote unquote new applications to the Mac,

00:20:22   helping them take the expertise

00:20:24   and maybe some of the code from iOS

00:20:25   and bring it over to Mac apps,

00:20:26   but I'm not sure they're ready to offer that to the public.

00:20:30   - You know, as you were bringing up Chameleon,

00:20:33   I was about to bring it up myself,

00:20:35   and so I went and dug up the GitHub page for it.

00:20:37   Last commit was May 16, 2014.

00:20:40   - When it comes to this kind of

00:20:42   major platform development framework,

00:20:44   I mean, this is long-term stuff.

00:20:46   These are things that last 10, 20 years.

00:20:49   Apple's a very patient company

00:20:50   when it comes to things like this.

00:20:52   So, with lots of things, Apple's very patient, honestly.

00:20:55   But in this kind of scenario,

00:20:57   the transition to Swift I think is very, very important here

00:20:59   and also we have to figure where is Mac OS X going.

00:21:02   As we discussed last week,

00:21:04   if they are planning on some major next-generation

00:21:08   Mac operating system that's going to be a major departure

00:21:10   from OS X as we know it today,

00:21:12   they'll just wait till they do that.

00:21:15   Like they're not gonna make a new OS 10 framework now,

00:21:17   they'll just wait until that comes and do it on that.

00:21:19   Same thing, like if they're gonna do something major

00:21:21   with reconsidering AppKit or UIKit with Swift

00:21:25   and with like a more Swifty model,

00:21:28   if they're going to be doing that anytime

00:21:30   in the next five, 10 years, they'll wait for that.

00:21:33   You know, they're not gonna do something in the meantime

00:21:35   that is, like I can't imagine them investing tons of time

00:21:38   and effort into a brand new Objective-C

00:21:41   the nSwift UI framework for the Mac today.

00:21:45   Like that, I just, I don't see that at all.

00:21:47   If they have to do something more elegant,

00:21:50   or if they wanna do something more elegant,

00:21:51   but they have to wait five more years to do it,

00:21:53   they'll just wait.

00:21:55   - Let's talk about something that's awesome

00:21:56   and celebrate a little bit.

00:21:57   - All right, speaking of the Mac,

00:21:59   if you are a Mac developer and you wanna sell

00:22:02   outside the Mac App Store, our first sponsor today

00:22:05   is DevMate.

00:22:06   DevMate lets you sell Mac apps outside of the Mac App Store

00:22:09   and it integrates a whole bunch of services

00:22:11   So it kind of gives you a lot of the benefits of selling in the Mac App Store as a Mac developer,

00:22:16   but without having to actually be in the Mac App Store.

00:22:20   And honestly I was looking at maybe making a little Mac App, not Overcast, but maybe

00:22:23   making a little Mac App, a little utility thing.

00:22:25   Sorry, Casey.

00:22:26   I was looking at it and I honestly don't want to have to deal with payment processing and

00:22:32   I don't want to have to deal with building in an auto updater and everything.

00:22:37   I just don't want to deal with that stuff.

00:22:38   There's a reason why the App Store is compelling when it works well, which might be never,

00:22:43   but when it, like the promise of it is actually, you know, it should work and in theory it

00:22:50   does work. Unfortunately in reality the Mac App Store doesn't work and fortunately for

00:22:53   me I don't need to make that decision for whatever this app is I'm gonna make because

00:22:56   it can't be sandboxed so I can't put it in the Mac App Store. So if I want to release

00:22:59   it I have to release it outside of the Mac App Store. And I'm looking at DevMate honestly

00:23:03   because DevMate, so it's made by a company called MacPaw, they do all sorts of stuff

00:23:07   for the Mac.

00:23:08   They've made a powerful tool set that has allowed

00:23:12   all of us Mac developers, I can say us now,

00:23:14   to overcome App Store limitations.

00:23:16   So they can sell your software outside of the Mac App Store.

00:23:19   You can deliver updates easily to it with their platform.

00:23:22   You can protect your apps with license management.

00:23:24   You can make trial versions.

00:23:25   You can sell bundles.

00:23:27   You can even run beta tests with automatic crash reporting.

00:23:29   All these luxuries that you get

00:23:31   if you're totally in the App Store ecosystem.

00:23:33   And you can get in-depth analytics and marketing metrics,

00:23:36   which is even usually better than what you can get

00:23:38   in the App Store.

00:23:39   So DevMate has collected all the tools and services

00:23:41   they use into one pack and they've created

00:23:44   this amazing platform for Mac developers.

00:23:46   So you don't have to do any kind of crazy licensing coding

00:23:49   to make your own like weird serial number scheme

00:23:51   or anything like that.

00:23:53   You can use their tools, manage free trials

00:23:55   and many different diverse license types.

00:23:57   They offer hosting, they offer the CDN,

00:24:00   version management, update delivery,

00:24:02   and an e-commerce solution for in-app purchase.

00:24:04   All these things all available.

00:24:06   You can get customer feedback, you can view a breakdown of your paid and trial customers

00:24:10   and built-in trial support, all this amazing stuff, all at DevMate.

00:24:14   So all you have to do is worry about coding the app itself, and you leave the rest to

00:24:19   DevMate.

00:24:20   So Mac developers, check out DevMate today.

00:24:21   Honestly, I am tempted by this.

00:24:22   I might check it out.

00:24:24   If I decide to release this app, that's going to be the first place I look, honestly.

00:24:27   Anyway, thanks for sponsoring.

00:24:28   All right.

00:24:29   So you're not going to tell us what the app is?

00:24:31   Well, sure.

00:24:32   It doesn't really matter.

00:24:33   It's really nothing.

00:24:34   Do you remember a few months ago I posted a little

00:24:38   Longdee AppleScript thing to automatically quit Twitter

00:24:41   every 10 minutes if it wasn't active?

00:24:43   So if you make a native app, you can do that a lot better.

00:24:48   You can do things like, instead of just every 10 minutes,

00:24:51   check if it's active and if not, quit it.

00:24:54   You can monitor the active window in real time.

00:24:58   And so you can quit it 10 minutes after I last used it.

00:25:01   Or you can do things like only quit if it's hidden.

00:25:04   and stuff like that, you can do a more advanced version

00:25:07   of this more easily.

00:25:09   So I have a little prototype of that running,

00:25:11   and right now it's literally like this giant black square

00:25:14   in my menu bar.

00:25:15   So if I wanna actually make it releasable,

00:25:18   there's gonna be some work involved, but it does work,

00:25:21   and it's really nice, actually, it's really nice.

00:25:23   I found that this has dramatically reduced my Twitter usage,

00:25:27   as measured by rescue time,

00:25:28   and so I'm actually very happy with this approach.

00:25:31   And it has turned Twitter into something

00:25:33   that is always open on my Mac, like mail, you know?

00:25:37   It has turned it from something that's always open

00:25:39   to something that is inherently incredibly unreliable,

00:25:41   because it seems to me like it crashes every 10 minutes,

00:25:44   which is really nice. (laughing)

00:25:47   - You created your own chaos monkey on your Mac.

00:25:50   - Yes, that only targets one or two apps.

00:25:52   It's great, it's great because it turns it into something

00:25:57   that I have to actively go and activate,

00:26:00   rather than something that's always there in the corner,

00:26:03   ready for me to be distracted by it, you know?

00:26:05   So it actually, this approach actually

00:26:07   does work really well for me.

00:26:08   I don't know if it'll work for anybody else.

00:26:09   I don't know if anybody else cares,

00:26:11   but it was worth me making the Mac version

00:26:13   just to make it better, so it's no longer

00:26:16   these weird launch D scripts that I can't turn off easily

00:26:19   or can't adjust easily.

00:26:20   So yeah, so far I'm liking it.

00:26:22   So I might release it.

00:26:24   I don't even know if I would charge money.

00:26:25   I have no idea, but I mean, I figure this could be

00:26:28   like a nice way for me to learn a little more

00:26:30   about making Mac software and the market for Mac software

00:26:33   and just kind of dip my toe in

00:26:34   and get like a little tutorial on it.

00:26:36   - Excellent.

00:26:37   - Would you pay five bucks for this thing?

00:26:39   - I wouldn't buy it.

00:26:40   - Yeah, I can't say.

00:26:41   - Can you buy an application that quits apps

00:26:43   from out from under you?

00:26:44   No thanks. - Yeah.

00:26:45   (laughing)

00:26:46   - I don't even like a sudden termination or whatever.

00:26:49   The APIs they added that like when you have no open documents

00:26:51   that it kills the application.

00:26:53   I don't even like that.

00:26:54   - I haven't even noticed that ever hitting me, honestly.

00:26:56   Maybe I just don't use apps that do it.

00:26:58   - If you use text edit, it happens a lot.

00:26:59   you close all the windows and text edits

00:27:01   and you switch to some other app

00:27:02   and then you look back at the doc and you're like,

00:27:04   oh, put that dot go underneath text edit,

00:27:05   oh, it's gone again.

00:27:06   - Who would, who use a text edit anymore?

00:27:09   - I find myself using it still occasionally.

00:27:11   It has the, I use it for, as my poor man's outliner.

00:27:13   Like if you do option tab, you know, that whole thing.

00:27:16   - Don't you have like a better, don't you have BB editor?

00:27:19   Aren't you like a better text editor person?

00:27:21   - Yeah, but that's not for outlining.

00:27:22   Like for outlining, you're like having indented levels

00:27:25   and being able to just keep typing

00:27:27   and have it soft wrap the indented level, you know,

00:27:29   - Like you said tab, what?

00:27:31   - No, no, no, you write long paragraphs

00:27:34   and they stay at the level of the,

00:27:36   like you're not hard wrapping it, right?

00:27:37   You're just typing and typing and typing

00:27:39   and it is wrapping in a paragraph

00:27:40   but that paragraph is indented

00:27:42   just like the bullet point you put it on.

00:27:44   - Use a task paper.

00:27:45   - I don't even know what that is.

00:27:46   - That's what I use for that.

00:27:47   It's by, I think it's Jesse Grossjean,

00:27:49   the guy who makes folding text, I think that's him.

00:27:52   - Yeah, anyway, text edit is what I use

00:27:55   for my podcast notes when I'm on podcasts

00:27:57   other than this one, like when it's just notes for me,

00:28:00   as opposed to all three of us sharing a document, right?

00:28:03   Yeah.

00:28:04   And I don't know.

00:28:05   And you double click documents, it owns .txt,

00:28:07   and I haven't gone and changed the bindings

00:28:09   for all that stuff.

00:28:10   So I find myself launching it.

00:28:12   And then if I want to keep it open,

00:28:14   I got to remember just keep one document open.

00:28:16   Really, like the whole idea is you're not supposed to care

00:28:17   that it's open.

00:28:18   It takes out a launcher so fast, I really don't care.

00:28:20   But I do notice it quitting itself.

00:28:22   Preview does the same thing, which annoys me more,

00:28:24   because I do use preview more to view images and stuff.

00:28:26   Apparently, literally, Taskpaper 3 was released today.

00:28:30   Coincidentally.

00:28:31   (laughing)

00:28:32   - I know that is.

00:28:33   - I've been testing it for a while, I don't really like it.

00:28:34   I just didn't realize it was released today.

00:28:36   (laughing)

00:28:37   Yeah, I like Taskpaper a lot.

00:28:39   So we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:28:40   - Fun times.

00:28:41   All right, so speaking of releasing things,

00:28:44   Overcast 2.5, tell us all the things about it, Marco.

00:28:47   - Oh, geez, do I really have to?

00:28:49   Yeah, so I did a 2.5 update,

00:28:52   the list of features of which was typed in Taskpaper

00:28:54   the whole time, as I've been using it

00:28:56   my to-do list for all of my apps since Instapaper 1.0 maybe or at least early versions of Instapaper.

00:29:03   Anyway, so yeah, so 2.5 is basically what it sounds like. It's like a half major release

00:29:09   if that makes sense. Like it's not like it still looks about the same for the most part.

00:29:16   There's not a whole lot of new headlining features but there are a few and there's a

00:29:20   whole bunch of big improvements everywhere basically. So it kind of originally I was

00:29:24   at 2.1 and I was like, "Eh," as I kept adding more stuff, I'm like, "You know what? This

00:29:27   feels like a 2.5." So I'll call it 2.5. And it's about six months from 2.0, so that kind

00:29:32   of made sense with a roughly annual release cycle for the big stuff. So the big things

00:29:38   are if you are a patron, so if you pay me a dollar a month basically, then you get a

00:29:44   new dark theme and you get the ability to have file uploads. So you can like upload

00:29:50   something that's not a real podcast or not a public podcast like an audio book or if

00:29:55   you're a producer of podcasts like a draft of an episode you're working on, you can upload

00:29:59   that into Overcast and play it in your player. And it doesn't become public for everybody

00:30:04   to play. It just plays for you. And this is actually a feature I built this in version

00:30:09   1.0. I had this right at the beginning and it was only enabled for my account for all

00:30:13   this time. And I would use it to play downloaded episodes of Howard Stern. I mean personally

00:30:17   recorded episodes of Howard Stern, home Howard Stern recordings. And so I use it all this

00:30:22   time, but I didn't want to launch it because these files are hosted on S3. And so I'm

00:30:27   like, I don't really want to sign myself up for somebody paying me five bucks once

00:30:32   and then me hosting like two gigs of S3 files for them for the next three years. That would

00:30:37   be hard to sustain economically. And so I figure, you know, let me wait until I have

00:30:43   have some kind of recurring revenue in place,

00:30:46   or if it appears as though the app is doing

00:30:49   so incredibly well with the in-app purchase upfront,

00:30:52   that I can enable it for everybody,

00:30:54   then maybe I'll try it later.

00:30:55   But anyway, whatever, I push it off 'til later.

00:30:58   That was in mid-2014. (laughs)

00:31:01   And I kinda just forgot about it.

00:31:03   I mean, people have been requesting this feature for a while,

00:31:06   but there were always features that were requested more

00:31:08   that I had to do, that were more important to do,

00:31:11   things like streaming and stuff like that.

00:31:12   So there was always kind of stuff ahead of it

00:31:15   in the to-do list, and I finally got around to doing it,

00:31:18   and which really was just like polishing up

00:31:21   the feature I already had,

00:31:23   like making it look a little bit nicer,

00:31:24   styling the website slightly around the uploader,

00:31:28   instead of just being like an unformatted progress bar

00:31:30   and everything, and the technical side of it's really

00:31:32   pretty straightforward.

00:31:33   I actually, if you look at this,

00:31:34   if you view source on the uploads page,

00:31:36   I actually am uploading the files directly to S3,

00:31:39   and then the app downloads them directly from S3.

00:31:41   So the files never pass through overcast servers,

00:31:44   which helps me save on cost,

00:31:46   and it also helps them arrive faster.

00:31:47   You don't have to wait for a double upload,

00:31:49   like for my server to then upload it to S3,

00:31:50   you don't have to wait for that.

00:31:52   So it's both a nice cost savings for me,

00:31:54   and also a speed improvement for you,

00:31:57   and a weird technical cool thing

00:31:58   that most people don't even know

00:31:59   that you can generate a form

00:32:01   to securely upload a file to S3, but you can.

00:32:03   Then I did dark mode, which is also for patrons only.

00:32:08   I got a little bit of pushback on this, actually.

00:32:11   I'd say I probably heard from about 100 people.

00:32:13   It's a little controversial,

00:32:14   I'm curious what you guys think.

00:32:15   It's a little controversial because,

00:32:17   so when I had version one, 1.x,

00:32:19   like all the 1.x versions,

00:32:20   it ran from mid 2014 to mid 2015.

00:32:24   Version one was a free app with a $5 in app purchase

00:32:27   to quote, unlock everything.

00:32:29   And what I meant was unlock all the features

00:32:31   I have right now, like just unlock everything.

00:32:33   And then in 2.0 last October,

00:32:36   I switched to a full patron's model

00:32:38   where everything was free,

00:32:39   and you could pay if you wanted to for nothing.

00:32:42   Like you would get nothing for it.

00:32:44   And I said I might add features in the future for patrons

00:32:47   that I can't have for everybody for cost reasons or whatever

00:32:50   and I was actually thinking about the upload feature

00:32:51   when I wrote that.

00:32:52   So now when I wanted to add this new file upload

00:32:55   in dark mode pair, I decided to make,

00:32:57   now file uploads are easy to make patron only

00:32:59   'cause you can say well that costs money

00:33:01   for everyone who uses it.

00:33:03   But there is a debate here among people

00:33:07   who bother me on Twitter, people who are like,

00:33:10   they're literally arguing with each other.

00:33:12   Like I'm not even involved in the argument.

00:33:13   They're people, like my people are arguing in my mentions

00:33:16   with each other about whether this should be a problem

00:33:18   or not, whether people who bought it,

00:33:21   who bought the 1.x unlock everything thing in 2014,

00:33:25   whether they should have the dark mode as well.

00:33:28   And so what do you guys think about that?

00:33:30   'Cause I figured, the reason why I thought

00:33:32   it would be okay this way, the reason I made everything free

00:33:36   with 2.0 and decided to just do patrons for nothing

00:33:39   for a while, was I was tired of the basic version

00:33:43   of the app having intrusive limitations

00:33:46   that would make it suck.

00:33:47   So like a limit on, like it would only show

00:33:49   the top five entries in a playlist

00:33:50   and you couldn't adjust the speed

00:33:52   or you could only do it for a few minutes at a time

00:33:53   and everything, so there were these limitations in the app

00:33:57   that were actively trying to make the app worse

00:34:01   so that you would hit them and then you'd be encouraged

00:34:04   paid the money to unlock everything.

00:34:06   And so I decided that it would make most sense

00:34:08   for if I was gonna do anything special for patrons.

00:34:11   And first of all, I should preface this with,

00:34:13   patronage wasn't going that well, honestly.

00:34:14   Like it was going well enough to sustain

00:34:17   the basic cost of the app, but it wasn't doing well enough

00:34:20   for me to really wanna justify putting tons of time into it.

00:34:24   It was doing okay, but I needed to do better

00:34:26   than how it was doing.

00:34:28   Otherwise I'm gonna have to move back to some other model,

00:34:30   like whether it's paid up front or another in-app purchase,

00:34:33   whatever. So, patronage as it was going was not going well enough. So I had to change

00:34:37   something. So I decided, let me give people some motivation to pay. But I didn't want

00:34:43   to make the app suck for everyone else. So I decided to, dark mode was, I decided it

00:34:48   was interesting to make patron only because it's something that doesn't really, if you

00:34:53   don't have it, it doesn't affect you at all really. Like it doesn't, the absence of this

00:34:58   feature does not make the app worse for everyone who doesn't have it. It's not like some

00:35:03   some kind of limit that you hit where it makes it worse.

00:35:06   So I figured it would be a nice perk to give patrons,

00:35:09   it's something that like, it kind of feels like a perk,

00:35:12   it kind of feels like a special extra, you know?

00:35:15   'Cause it isn't really like a substantial,

00:35:18   functional feature in the app, it's just like a theme,

00:35:21   it's how it looks.

00:35:22   And so you make a cool dark mode and it looks cool

00:35:25   and everyone likes dark modes now, like,

00:35:27   so it looks cool and I think it looks nice

00:35:29   and it's something new and different

00:35:30   and kind of exclusive 'cause it's patron only.

00:35:32   So I thought that was all fine.

00:35:35   But I have now heard from, yeah,

00:35:36   probably about 100 people who think differently.

00:35:39   What do you guys think?

00:35:41   - It seems like, well, so for the patron thing,

00:35:44   if someone pays and they get the dark theme,

00:35:47   what is, does the dark theme go away if they stop paying?

00:35:51   - Yes.

00:35:51   - So that, I think that's the place

00:35:53   where it doesn't seem like it fits,

00:35:55   because it seems more like an in-app purchase basically.

00:35:59   Like if you did it as an in-app purchase,

00:36:01   it would be like if you don't want dark theme before two point five came out you

00:36:04   didn't have dark theme anyway

00:36:05   you don't even know dark theme existed you were fine using overcast before now

00:36:09   all of a sudden two point five comes out and you see the shiny dark theme that

00:36:12   you want but you don't want to pay for it is you just want to get it for free

00:36:15   well you know if you this is the thing that you like how about you give me some

00:36:19   money and I'll give you the dark theme but i think that most people's minds

00:36:22   dark theme doesn't seem like a thing that you should have to keep paying for

00:36:25   they don't you know for for whatever reason it seems like like like buying a

00:36:31   downloadable content in the game, you know, you buy to get the fancy hat for your character, you get the fancy hat.

00:36:36   You don't have to keep paying every year to keep your fancy hat.

00:36:39   I think it feels more like a one-time in-app purchase and yeah,

00:36:43   I think it's a perfect kind of in-app purchase or the perfect kind of

00:36:46   monetary frill because it's like, like I said, people may be upset about it, but you know, you're using 1.0 and 2.0

00:36:53   and they didn't have any dark theme, right?

00:36:55   Before 2.5 that you were fine with it,

00:36:58   But then suddenly when you know there's a dark theme and now you have to pay money to get it

00:37:01   Oh, I want to get it. I want to get it for free

00:37:03   Well, so if you don't think it's worth the money don't pay for it, right?

00:37:06   and if you if you suddenly don't want to use the

00:37:08   Application like well then just go back in time and pretend 2.5 was never released and then use whatever calculus you were using before

00:37:14   To make you pay for it. Were you just holding on waiting for a dark theme? Anyway, I

00:37:18   Was saying is I don't think it seems like a recurring thing and trying to bundle it all under the patron thing

00:37:23   when you've only really got two things at this point

00:37:25   for the patrons.

00:37:27   You've got the uploads, which like you said,

00:37:29   makes total sense, like you're costing money,

00:37:31   therefore you must give money on a regular basis

00:37:33   because you're storing files on the internet, right?

00:37:35   - Well, it doesn't make total sense

00:37:37   to everybody who's been angry.

00:37:38   At least half of them are demanding that too.

00:37:41   But that one's easy for me to say,

00:37:44   I can't do that for everybody, sorry,

00:37:46   I'm not gonna do that, you know, that makes sense.

00:37:48   - Right, I mean, it's just a money-losing proposition there.

00:37:52   I will pay for storage on Amazon S3 for you and you will give me nothing?

00:37:55   No, it doesn't, you know.

00:37:55   Anyway, um, I think that makes more sense.

00:37:58   And if you have like 17 features that patrons got and one of them happened to

00:38:01   be the bundle dark theme, I think that would make sense too, because the patron

00:38:04   is like the different, the different class of people like, Oh, I pay a little

00:38:07   bit extra zap that you can get and use for free and it does everything you

00:38:10   want it to do, but I pay a little bit extra for this one feature that has an

00:38:14   ongoing recurring cost because I'm storing bits on the internet and other

00:38:18   feature that's just a little perk.

00:38:19   I mean, in the end, it doesn't really matter,

00:38:21   like all these logical arguments

00:38:22   of what should or shouldn't be.

00:38:23   All that matters is, do people find,

00:38:26   are people willing to pay for it?

00:38:27   I mean, you'll find that out with the sales number.

00:38:29   If have you made an offering that is attractive enough

00:38:31   for people to part ways with their money

00:38:32   on a regular basis to get them, you'll find out.

00:38:35   But if we had to try to like break it down,

00:38:37   I think that's the difference between the two,

00:38:40   the things that you've offered that,

00:38:42   one of them just doesn't seem like a recurring feature

00:38:44   to a lot of people.

00:38:45   But for other people, they're gonna pay

00:38:46   for the file uploads anyway,

00:38:47   And for them, dark mode is just like a perk.

00:38:49   Oh, and great, I get dark mode too.

00:38:50   They don't feel like they're paying X amount

00:38:53   every month or year for dark mode.

00:38:54   They feel like they're paying for file uploads

00:38:56   and getting dark mode as a perk.

00:38:57   So I think that the sales numbers will bear it out.

00:39:00   And if people are having arguments about it,

00:39:02   it's clear there are disagreements

00:39:03   about what is worth spending this money on or not.

00:39:07   So I think it's a perfectly valid experiment.

00:39:10   And I fully expect in six months or a year from now,

00:39:13   are you to try more experiments?

00:39:14   'Cause that's just the way it goes.

00:39:17   Casey, what do you think?

00:39:18   - I think that I didn't blink an eye over Dark Mode

00:39:23   or file uploads being a patron-only exclusive.

00:39:27   I think having heard Jon's thoughts on it,

00:39:31   I tend to agree with him that Dark Mode seems like

00:39:33   maybe it should have been an in-app purchase

00:39:36   separate from the patronage,

00:39:40   but then that gets into a whole new wiggly discussion

00:39:43   about, well, do you really wanna have patronage

00:39:46   and in-app purchases concurrently.

00:39:50   - And the answer is no, I really don't.

00:39:51   Like there's so many reasons why I don't wanna do that.

00:39:54   - Then I would say either you give dark mode

00:39:58   out of the goodness of your heart

00:39:59   and then potentially have some financial implications

00:40:04   thereof, which I don't think is a terribly good option,

00:40:07   or you deal with the people being grumpy.

00:40:09   I do understand what Jon's saying

00:40:10   and I mostly agree with him that, you know,

00:40:12   it feels like the sort of thing

00:40:13   that you should just pay for once and that's that.

00:40:16   But on the other side of the coin, I mean, you need to be able to eat.

00:40:19   And I would say that most of the people, or I would think that most of the people that

00:40:24   download this app have enough of an understanding of kind of how the App Store economy works.

00:40:31   Not necessarily to the level of those who listen to the show, but just a general understanding

00:40:35   that, hey, the people who wrote this app, or person that wrote this app, needs to be

00:40:38   able to eat.

00:40:39   And so I need to be able to pay that person.

00:40:42   And so I don't find it troubling for either to be in the patronage model at all, really.

00:40:49   But it's easy for me to say because, you know, I'm obviously going to support you

00:40:53   regardless because you're a close friend of mine.

00:40:56   I definitely don't see a problem with the file uploads being in patronage at all, at

00:41:01   all, at all.

00:41:02   Because as Jon has said, as you've said, you need to be able to recoup that money somehow.

00:41:07   The way I look at the Patronix model really

00:41:10   is that I'm trying to find a way to be both the cheapest

00:41:15   and the most expensive podcast app in the store.

00:41:18   So I'm trying to find a way where this could be free

00:41:23   for almost everybody, you know, free up front.

00:41:26   If anybody wants to try it, they can try it for free

00:41:28   because, as I said on numerous other occasions,

00:41:31   one of my goals with this app is to get a lot of users

00:41:34   to kind of help me defend the openness of podcasting,

00:41:37   with diversity of clients.

00:41:38   So it is very important for me

00:41:41   that the app stay free up front.

00:41:43   And so the question is like, how do I,

00:41:45   where do I get the money?

00:41:46   You know, and I can do like ads somehow,

00:41:48   but I don't really want to.

00:41:50   I've thought of ways I could do it tastefully.

00:41:52   I still would rather not do that if I don't have to.

00:41:55   So you know, we'll see what happens there.

00:41:57   Hopefully I won't need to do that.

00:41:58   But I might.

00:41:59   To me, I see this really as update pricing,

00:42:03   or upgrade pricing.

00:42:04   Like kind of baked in.

00:42:05   So if I didn't do this, I would have to do

00:42:10   some kind of upgrade pricing model.

00:42:12   So I would have to then hold back features for longer

00:42:16   and make these bigger, like I probably wouldn't have

00:42:17   released 2.5 right now, I probably would have done,

00:42:19   waited a few more months and done a big 3.0 update

00:42:22   in the summer or something, and then charged

00:42:26   a whole separate purchase.

00:42:27   Like had it be, all right, you know what,

00:42:28   your 1.x and 2.x purchases don't count for anything now.

00:42:34   Now, you know, brand new purchase

00:42:36   for the 3.0 premium features.

00:42:38   And that also sucks in a lot of different ways.

00:42:42   And I think that would anger people more.

00:42:44   So the question is, I want to get,

00:42:47   somehow I want to get some kind of recurring revenue.

00:42:49   And I think the software industry kind of bears that out now

00:42:53   of seeing like, you know, for an app to be sustainable,

00:42:55   it needs something like that.

00:42:57   You know, it doesn't necessarily need to be done

00:42:59   in one particular way, but somehow,

00:43:02   you need recurring revenue to come in.

00:43:04   You know, like with Instapaper,

00:43:05   I didn't have that for a long time.

00:43:07   Instapaper, it was just five bucks up front,

00:43:09   and that was it.

00:43:10   And that worked for a long time,

00:43:13   because the growth was so good.

00:43:15   With Overcast, the growth isn't that good.

00:43:17   It grows, but it's not growing at the kind of rate

00:43:20   that Instapaper was, just because Instapaper

00:43:22   had a really great growth curve.

00:43:23   It was really early in the app store.

00:43:26   It had, you know, it was in the right place

00:43:28   at the right time, basically.

00:43:29   And I think that was a wider audience.

00:43:31   Whereas now, with Overcast, the built-in podcast app

00:43:34   is so popular, and even though it's fairly mediocre,

00:43:39   it's popular enough that it's hard for people

00:43:42   to make a dent in that.

00:43:44   So I need some way to, I can't rely on just growth

00:43:47   for revenue purposes.

00:43:48   I have to rely on some kind of recurring revenue.

00:43:51   So in the App Store, my options are sell coins and BS,

00:43:55   but some kind of consumable, it's literally,

00:43:58   they call it some kind of consumable in-app purchase.

00:44:01   I don't think that necessarily fits in a podcast client.

00:44:03   I don't see how that fits in a way

00:44:05   that doesn't just piss people off.

00:44:07   So that's option number one, not a very good option.

00:44:10   Option number two would be what I mentioned,

00:44:12   kind of like the upgrade pricing

00:44:14   kind of straightforward way to do it,

00:44:15   which is either make a whole separate app every year

00:44:18   and have it be paid upfront maybe,

00:44:20   or have it be free with in-app purchase

00:44:22   to unlock the way I did 1.0.

00:44:24   Then I have a whole new app every year,

00:44:26   and that has so many problems

00:44:27   with people getting really angry

00:44:29   if they bought it right before you updated it

00:44:30   and you have to, again, you have to kind of batch

00:44:33   your major updates together and hold back features

00:44:36   for six months waiting for the big update and everything.

00:44:38   And that sucks too.

00:44:40   Or you do what I'm doing now,

00:44:42   which is some kind of subscription,

00:44:44   some kind of recurring payment for something.

00:44:48   So the way I'm doing it now is,

00:44:49   I started out, you're paying for nothing.

00:44:51   Now you're paying for almost nothing,

00:44:52   except for these two features you're kind of paying for.

00:44:55   I think it's a pretty good happy medium

00:44:58   where I'm basically charging you $12 a year

00:45:00   if you want the full experience,

00:45:02   but most people won't and that's fine.

00:45:05   So far, my subscription counts are up by some big percentage,

00:45:10   I think like 30% in like two days.

00:45:13   I mean, they had a big jump and we'll see what happens

00:45:17   if they keep going up as more people get the update

00:45:20   or try the update.

00:45:21   I'm not really promoting the update.

00:45:23   Like when you launch it after the update,

00:45:25   it doesn't pop up a box saying, hey, here's what's new.

00:45:27   Just nothing happens, so you'd have to go

00:45:29   to the settings screen to even notice necessarily

00:45:31   that it's been updated.

00:45:33   So this could be a slow growth over time.

00:45:35   But it does seem so far as though this one change

00:45:40   of giving you something that you kinda want

00:45:43   for 12 bucks a year, it does feel like that one change

00:45:47   will be enough to push a lot more people into subscribing.

00:45:52   And that will probably make the difference

00:45:53   between being able to keep this model long term or not.

00:45:57   'Cause if I didn't do this, as I said earlier,

00:45:59   if I didn't add something compelling for patrons,

00:46:02   and uploads aren't compelling enough,

00:46:03   because most people don't need that feature.

00:46:05   Some people really like it, but most people don't need it.

00:46:07   Whereas dark mode, that could appeal to any user.

00:46:10   You know, it doesn't necessarily,

00:46:11   not everybody cares that much,

00:46:12   but it will appeal to lots of people.

00:46:15   So if I didn't make a change like that,

00:46:17   where you got something for that unlock

00:46:19   that was really nice, but that didn't make the app

00:46:21   super bad for everyone who didn't have it,

00:46:23   then I wouldn't be able to continue this model.

00:46:25   So hey, we'll see what happens.

00:46:28   John's probably right,

00:46:28   I will probably change this in six months,

00:46:30   but you know, I'm hoping not to have to

00:46:32   because if I can keep this,

00:46:34   if this ends up working and being like a great model

00:46:37   for Overcast long term,

00:46:38   then I don't need to save up features

00:46:41   for major releases anymore.

00:46:42   I can release features whenever they're ready.

00:46:44   That is so much better for me,

00:46:46   it's better for users,

00:46:47   it is just so much better to do things that way,

00:46:50   and I don't have to deal with all this crazy

00:46:52   constantly changing purchase stuff to manage

00:46:55   and it's easier for the users.

00:46:57   There's no issue of like, if you buy the day before

00:47:02   I have like a major new update,

00:47:03   then you feel like a jerk from the day before.

00:47:05   There's so many issues this avoids.

00:47:08   And barring the absence of some kind of new

00:47:11   app store monetization method where, you know,

00:47:14   if Apple would offer some kind of easier paid upgrade system

00:47:18   or something like that, I might change my mind.

00:47:20   But barring anything like that, which I don't foresee,

00:47:22   this is probably a really great model as long as it works.

00:47:25   That's a big question, but we'll see.

00:47:28   - So you're gonna have to come up with new hats soon though.

00:47:31   Like the dark mode is your hat.

00:47:32   The dark mode is that the games learn that the thing

00:47:35   that you can make people pay for are actually the things

00:47:38   that are meaningless in the scope of the game,

00:47:40   but give your character a funny hat or whatever.

00:47:42   Like some cosmetic item that is desirable

00:47:45   all out of proportion to the actual value.

00:47:48   Because the number of people who legitimately need dark mode

00:47:50   because the white screen is too blinding and they like to use it mounted in their car or

00:47:55   whatever.

00:47:56   Like everyone's got an excuse why they need a dark mode and they can't turn their screen

00:47:59   down or whatever, right?

00:48:00   But bottom line is people want dark mode because it looks nice.

00:48:03   Those are the perfect kind of usually, you know, in-app purchase types things.

00:48:06   I would love to know how many people signed up for Patronage in 2.5 because of one of

00:48:13   the two new features, which one was it?

00:48:15   Like if they had to weigh them.

00:48:16   Like many people are just signing up just because they want to fund the app and have

00:48:20   it be developed and blah blah blah, the sort of high-minded ideal.

00:48:23   But other people are like, "Oh, there's two new features, file uploads in dark mode.

00:48:26   Which one were they really wanting to get?

00:48:28   Did they like them both equally, or are they going mostly for dark mode?"

00:48:31   And I would think most of them were going for dark mode, even though that is like the

00:48:35   less valuable, practically speaking, in terms of it doesn't actually add any feature, it

00:48:38   just makes the app look different.

00:48:40   So if that ends up working, next year you'll need something else of similar value for the

00:48:46   people who paid for dark mode, right?

00:48:48   don't want to keep paying because they're bored with dark mode. What new hats do you have to give

00:48:52   them for your podcast application? How about a podcast application instruction kit like the

00:48:57   calculator construction kit? You get to design your own application, pick the font, pick the

00:49:02   go. Anyway, I'm sure you'll come up with something. What I'm hoping is though, as you go through these

00:49:06   features, you're saying like before you had these other features that were more important than file

00:49:10   uploads, but eventually you did those and so you got to file uploads. How far down the list is my

00:49:15   feature where whenever I add something to overcast I want it to be added to the

00:49:19   one playlist I use all the time. I hate adding it to overcast and realizing I

00:49:23   didn't really add it overcast I added to a place where I'm never ever gonna see

00:49:26   it because I spent all my time in this one playlist and it's 7,000 taps to pull

00:49:30   things from not in the playlist to be into the playlist when they're like

00:49:34   individual episodes like if someone tweets oh this was a good podcast

00:49:37   episode of a podcast that you probably don't want to subscribe to but just

00:49:41   download this episode and before it was like oh well now I got to subscribe and

00:49:44   find the episode and then add it to my playlist.

00:49:46   But now with uploads, I can just download the MP3

00:49:48   and upload it, but I still have to go add it to my playlist.

00:49:50   I would love it if everything I added to Overcast

00:49:52   always went into the playlist of my choice.

00:49:54   And I realize that's a super low priority feature,

00:49:56   but in theory, eventually you'll get to it.

00:49:59   - That is exactly how Overcast works for me.

00:50:01   Because my everything playlist is default inclusive.

00:50:06   Yours is a whitelist based, right?

00:50:10   Isn't that the last time we talked about this?

00:50:12   - Yeah, but that's what I want.

00:50:13   That's what I want. I want it to be white list based because there are things on the

00:50:17   outside that are large volume things that I don't want cluttering up my, it just seems

00:50:21   like a simple, anyway, eventually you'll be scraping the bottom of the barrel of the features

00:50:25   and you'll get to mine.

00:50:26   Eventually.

00:50:27   It's just one top menu. When adding things to Overcast, where should they be added by

00:50:32   default? I don't even want a million options like what priority, just add to the bottom.

00:50:36   I don't care. Or the top, whatever. Pick one.

00:50:39   - Oh boy, well anyway, maybe someday I'll have to go

00:50:43   ad supported, but if I did, I would totally have

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00:53:49   - One quick question for you, Marco.

00:53:51   I don't know very much at all about S3,

00:53:53   but all of the uploaded files are in a bucket

00:53:57   that you control/own, right?

00:53:59   Or maybe bucket is the right term, but.

00:54:01   So have you looked into about how many files

00:54:04   been uploaded? Is it a gajillion? Is it just ten? You know, do you have any feeling for

00:54:07   it?

00:54:08   >> Honestly, I haven't looked since that day. Give me a second. Introduce the next topic.

00:54:13   I'll look. I'll have. Can I do this? Can transmit count up for me?

00:54:17   >> Well, while you think about that for a second, and you can interrupt with some real-time

00:54:20   follow-up hopefully in a minute, it is probably worthwhile for us to talk about what's going

00:54:25   on Monday. It is Monday, right? The big Apple event?

00:54:28   >> Something like that, yeah.

00:54:29   I think it's, yeah, it's March 21st.

00:54:31   So yes, that's Monday.

00:54:33   Apple is going to loop in the press on March 21st

00:54:37   and talk about some new things.

00:54:39   What do we think it's gonna be?

00:54:41   I presume it'll be some sort of new Macintosh hardware.

00:54:46   It may be a new smaller iPhone,

00:54:48   which I have extraordinarily conflicting thoughts about.

00:54:52   John, what do you think?

00:54:54   - I haven't really been keeping up

00:54:55   with the typical criminology of examining the invitation

00:54:59   and seeing what it means. I mean, I did see it when it came out, and I thought briefly

00:55:03   about the looping you in, and I saw a couple stories about, "Oh, it's going to be showing

00:55:06   new colors of Milanese loops." I don't know. I mean, the titles always mean something.

00:55:13   Sometimes it's something not exciting. But that's—it does say something about what

00:55:20   they choose to emphasize. And it would be really weird to me, I think, to have this

00:55:24   event where we assume there's going to be at the very least new laptops that Marco will

00:55:28   talk about when he's done doing his research.

00:55:30   [laughter]

00:55:31   I'm just -- it's just a spinner.

00:55:32   I'm not counting it myself.

00:55:34   But it would be really weird to me if they had this event and introduced all the things

00:55:39   that we think they're going to introduce, or at least some of them or whatever, but

00:55:42   the "loop us in" thing ended up being about new Milanese loops, new colors?

00:55:46   Like, I don't know.

00:55:47   I just -- it seems weird.

00:55:49   So I'm hoping that's not what it is.

00:55:50   But anyway, I've been treating this event kind of like The Force Awakens, where I'm

00:55:55   I'm not trying to read too many spoilers about it because the past couple of events I haven't

00:56:00   really been bowled over by.

00:56:02   And I want to be pleasantly surprised by something.

00:56:06   So, you know, it's just managing expectations.

00:56:07   Like, all right, well, if you feel like you're getting overhyped, then just don't read as

00:56:10   much hype, and then whatever they announce, you'll be more excited about.

00:56:14   Can I spoil it for you?

00:56:15   I mean, yeah.

00:56:16   So the laptops, I'm probably not going to be excited about anyway.

00:56:19   Well, I was just going to tell you that they're probably not going to release the Mac Pro

00:56:24   with the gaming video card that you want.

00:56:26   Oh, yeah, really?

00:56:28   Thanks.

00:56:29   I kind of figured that one out.

00:56:31   It doesn't have to be a gaming video card, but they released a new Mac Pro, period.

00:56:35   Yeah.

00:56:36   I'm assuming if that's going to come, it would be WWC or later.

00:56:40   I haven't even been keeping enough to know if this is the rumored event where they're

00:56:45   going to do the new iPad.

00:56:47   I assume that's going to be October still, but like the new regular-sized iPad with the

00:56:51   styles and everything that I might actually buy. But if I did announce that, because I've

00:56:55   been out of the loop, I would be excited by it and I would probably buy one. Otherwise,

00:57:01   I guess I'll just look at the laptops from afar and we'll talk about whether we think

00:57:04   they're good or bad laptops. But Marco can tell us about those now.

00:57:07   Well, first of all, the rumors are pretty strong that this is the event where the 9.7-inch

00:57:14   new iPad will be released. Oh, don't spoil it for me. I could have been pleasantly surprised.

00:57:20   How do you not know that?

00:57:21   - I've been trying to stay away from the million sites

00:57:25   that will tell me the list of things

00:57:27   that are likely to appear.

00:57:28   - Okay, well, basically everybody is reporting

00:57:32   the same rumors, including ATP Tipster,

00:57:35   reporting the same rumors that basically this is that event

00:57:38   and we should probably expect that to happen,

00:57:41   like almost certainly, I don't think anyone's even doubting

00:57:44   any part of it anymore, but basically that's going to happen

00:57:47   in all likelihood, and it is 9.7 inch iPad

00:57:51   that's kind of like a mini iPad Pro.

00:57:53   So it'll have a smart connector,

00:57:56   it'll have those four speaker arrangement,

00:57:59   and it'll be nice and fast

00:58:01   and use some variant of the A9X.

00:58:03   Oh, and it supports the pencil.

00:58:05   - I've been wondering how they're gonna find space

00:58:07   for the big speaker cavities.

00:58:08   Do they just mean they'll have four speakers?

00:58:10   - That is the rumor is that it will have

00:58:13   a similar four speaker arrangement as the iPad Pro.

00:58:17   I think they could plausibly do it.

00:58:19   I mean, with the iPad, their main limitation is weight.

00:58:24   It's not necessarily size.

00:58:26   Weight is the big one.

00:58:27   So they presumably, I don't think every inch of that case

00:58:32   needs to be full of battery.

00:58:34   'Cause I mean, look at the iPad Pro.

00:58:36   If you look at the iPad Pro, it's not--

00:58:38   - But the case is so much bigger there is what I don't know.

00:58:40   I think it's just make it thicker obviously,

00:58:41   but that's so counter to what they always do.

00:58:43   Like all you gotta do is make it a millimeter thicker

00:58:45   and then suddenly you gain back all the area

00:58:46   that you want for the, or you could just make

00:58:48   the cavity smaller, anyway, I'm sure they'll work it out,

00:58:50   I'm just curious about what it'll look like.

00:58:52   - But a real-time follow-up, the total amount of data

00:58:54   stored on Overcast uploads so far is 189 gigs.

00:58:57   So that's not bad for like three days after release.

00:59:00   - That is impressive, and do you have any feel

00:59:02   for how many files that is, just ballpark?

00:59:04   - This doesn't tell me that somehow. (laughs)

00:59:09   - Time for another spinner. - It doesn't tell me

00:59:10   how many bytes, yeah, no, I'm not gonna do that.

00:59:11   Anyway, it doesn't matter.

00:59:13   Yeah, a lot. (laughs)

00:59:15   188 gigs, I mean, I have a limit of 500 megs per file,

00:59:18   so it's probably, or maybe, no, I've raised it,

00:59:20   it's a gig per file now, so, you know,

00:59:23   it's gotta be at least 188.

00:59:25   (laughing)

00:59:28   Probably more.

00:59:29   Anyway, so I think this will be a major iPad update,

00:59:33   because for one thing, I think bringing the pencil

00:59:36   to the 10-inch line is a really big deal,

00:59:38   and by all accounts, that's what they're going to do.

00:59:40   That is gonna be huge, because for so many people,

00:59:44   They really want the pencil, but the iPad Pro

00:59:47   is just too big, 'cause the iPad Pro,

00:59:49   you really have to be really into working on the iPad

00:59:53   on a table or at a desk.

00:59:55   You have to be really into that kind of setup,

00:59:57   almost like a mini laptop, really.

00:59:59   You have to be using it that way

01:00:00   for that to be comfortable for a lot of people.

01:00:03   The way most people use iPads,

01:00:05   kind of like in one arm, kind of sitting on a couch

01:00:09   or something, the way most people use iPads, I think,

01:00:12   that the iPad Pro is not great for that.

01:00:15   You can do it, but it's really not great for that,

01:00:17   and in some cases, maybe you can't do it.

01:00:19   So I think there's a lot of people who would like

01:00:21   the features of the iPad Pro, but just want it to be smaller

01:00:25   and just for physical dimension reasons.

01:00:28   So I think this will sell very well for an iPad.

01:00:31   I don't think it's going to revive the iPad

01:00:34   and save it by itself.

01:00:37   It might be part of a combination of things

01:00:38   that revive the iPad, but I don't think

01:00:41   this alone will do it, but I think it's gonna be

01:00:43   a really nice update and it's gonna be a success, I think.

01:00:46   And if I use my iPad more than zero times ever,

01:00:49   I would totally get it because it looks like

01:00:52   it's gonna be really good.

01:00:53   Unfortunately, maybe I might get it.

01:00:55   I had an idea for an app that uses the pencil,

01:00:57   but I don't think, I'm probably not gonna get to that idea

01:00:59   any time soon, so I'll probably wait on that

01:01:01   and probably not get this version.

01:01:03   But the only thing that would make me get this version,

01:01:05   I think, is if I decided to move forward with that app

01:01:07   and I would get it to test on,

01:01:08   but it's probably not gonna happen.

01:01:10   I'm really hoping for, even though I am not at all in the market for a laptop, I am really

01:01:15   hoping for the new MacBook Pros or whatever else happens to be released, has the keyboard

01:01:22   mechanism from the Magic Keyboard.

01:01:25   If you happen to follow me on Twitter, I won't shut up about how much I love the Magic Keyboard

01:01:28   because guess what?

01:01:29   I'm so amped for the thought of that keyboard being on a MacBook Pro because now typing

01:01:35   on my, basically brand new as I sit here today,

01:01:39   15-inch MacBook Pro, the keys are just mushy

01:01:43   by comparison to the Magic Keyboard,

01:01:47   and I want the Magic Keyboard in a MacBook Pro some fears.

01:01:52   - Yeah, so I guess we'll talk about the MacBook Pro now.

01:01:54   (laughs)

01:01:55   - Was there anything else about the iPad?

01:01:57   - No, but there's also the iPhone and the watch bands.

01:01:59   Anyway-- - We'll get there.

01:02:01   - Yeah, so MacBook Pro.

01:02:03   Intel released Skylake chips this past winter,

01:02:05   like in CES or whatever time scale that was,

01:02:08   or in that ballpark.

01:02:10   Skylake is a big deal, basically.

01:02:12   It's the new revision of the Intel CPUs

01:02:15   that is dramatically lower battery life,

01:02:17   or dramatically less battery usage,

01:02:20   and a pretty decent performance increase as well.

01:02:23   So it ends up that if you, by switching to Skylake,

01:02:26   if you keep the size of the thing the same,

01:02:28   you can get a nice long battery out of it.

01:02:30   If you just wanna keep the battery life the same,

01:02:33   then you can shrink the size of the laptop.

01:02:35   You can make it thinner and lighter.

01:02:36   So what we've heard from ATP Tipster,

01:02:40   quite a lot actually, but what we've heard is that

01:02:43   this update or some update soon,

01:02:47   basically these laptops exist,

01:02:49   we don't know if they'll be released on Wednesday,

01:02:51   but this update has happened internally

01:02:54   and they're done, they're ready to go.

01:02:56   But with Intel you never know

01:02:58   whether they can get enough chips

01:03:00   whether Intel, Intel's a mess as a partner to depend on.

01:03:03   'Cause like Intel's been holding back Mac releases

01:03:06   for years now, 'cause just like they just can't

01:03:08   advance their own stuff, they can't get their process up,

01:03:10   they can't get yields up, whatever else.

01:03:12   But sometime very soon, and probably at this event,

01:03:15   there's going to be a significant update

01:03:17   to the MacBook Pro line, including,

01:03:19   and also the MacBook One.

01:03:20   So moving them all to Skylake, basically.

01:03:25   And of course what this allows them to do,

01:03:26   as I said earlier, is you can either increase

01:03:28   the battery life or you can make the thing

01:03:29   thinner and lighter.

01:03:30   So according to HP Tipster, the MacBook One,

01:03:34   the little skinny one port thing with the crappy keyboard,

01:03:37   that is apparently getting Skylake,

01:03:39   but with not really other meaningful changes.

01:03:41   The USB-C port it has will become

01:03:44   a Thunderbolt 3 USB-C port, I think,

01:03:46   but that will be a big deal 'cause that enables

01:03:50   faster things and better monitor and stuff like that.

01:03:52   But the main thing is with the MacBook One,

01:03:54   it'll get a decent performance increase.

01:03:56   But again, keep in mind, if a lot of people

01:03:58   are hoping for the MacBook One to somehow reach the level of last year's MacBook Pro

01:04:03   or something. It won't. It can't. The thermal difference is there. This is a fanless computer

01:04:09   made to dissipate like six watts of heat or whatever. It can't. You can't put a CPU class

01:04:16   that's made for like a 25 watt enclosure. It can't dissipate enough heat. So the MacBook

01:04:22   One CPUs are never going to be fast relative to the ones you can get by going a little

01:04:26   larger with a fan, like they're never gonna be that fast.

01:04:29   And it's never even gonna be close.

01:04:30   They just can't be by just thermals of CPU design.

01:04:33   But it will be probably a good 10 to 25% faster than it is

01:04:37   now, something like that, like in that ballpark.

01:04:41   And it's also gonna probably have something like

01:04:43   10 to 30% better battery life, something like that.

01:04:46   So it takes this computer that was pretty underpowered

01:04:51   and had pretty mediocre battery life,

01:04:54   And it makes those things better.

01:04:56   You know, not 100% better, but decently better.

01:04:59   So the MacBook One will get a little better.

01:05:02   I would also speculate,

01:05:03   I haven't heard anything about this yet,

01:05:04   but I would also speculate,

01:05:06   on the invitation to the event,

01:05:09   the invitation Apple sent out,

01:05:10   I know we don't wanna look too much into it,

01:05:12   however, it is pretty obvious on the invitation

01:05:14   that they have clearly featured

01:05:16   the colors of the metals they've been offering

01:05:19   on the iPhone.

01:05:20   They have the space gray, the rose gold,

01:05:22   the gold and the aluminum.

01:05:23   They have all those colors like kind of forming the logo

01:05:27   on the invitation.

01:05:29   So I have to imagine this indicates

01:05:31   that they're going to offer these colors on the new laptops.

01:05:34   Notably, they don't currently offer the pink,

01:05:37   or excuse me, rose gold.

01:05:38   They don't offer rose gold MacBook Ones yet.

01:05:42   And they don't offer any colors on the MacBook Pros yet.

01:05:45   It would be cool if they offered all four colors

01:05:47   on all the MacBook Pros.

01:05:49   And according to ATP TIFF, that might be the case.

01:05:53   So I'm looking forward, if they do that,

01:05:54   I would love to have those color options,

01:05:57   or more color options,

01:05:58   but I would love to at least start with those.

01:06:00   It'd be great to just have something different

01:06:02   from the plain aluminum that we've seen

01:06:04   for God knows how long, right?

01:06:07   - Oh, totally.

01:06:08   I bought my first Mac

01:06:10   when the polycarbonate MacBook was a thing.

01:06:13   And I remember wanting the,

01:06:15   what people called the Black Book,

01:06:17   which is basically a black plastic MacBook.

01:06:19   I wanted that thing so badly.

01:06:22   probably because I came from ThinkPads that were all black,

01:06:25   but to this day, I still think it looks

01:06:27   really, really, really good, and I wanted it so bad,

01:06:31   but it was like $150 or something like that.

01:06:33   The only difference was the case.

01:06:35   - And it clutched fingerprints like crazy.

01:06:37   Like that was-- - That I did not know.

01:06:38   - Neither, yeah, we had a couple of them

01:06:40   in the Tumblr office, a few people had 'em.

01:06:41   I got to see 'em during that time,

01:06:43   and they never looked good in person,

01:06:45   because, like, and neither of the, you know,

01:06:47   the white ones would have the discoloring palm rests,

01:06:50   And it wasn't actually from your hands necessarily.

01:06:53   The plastic would discolor with heat.

01:06:55   And it would also discolor if you had your hands all over it

01:06:57   and they were dirty.

01:06:58   But I got my top case replaced

01:07:00   in the middle of having my white MacBook.

01:07:02   With the replacement, I put one of those little

01:07:05   stick-on protectors on it,

01:07:06   like a clear stick-on protector on it.

01:07:08   So my hands never actually rested on it.

01:07:11   And it still discolored.

01:07:12   And yeah, it turns out that as we learned

01:07:14   with the white iPhone being delayed for almost a year,

01:07:17   remember that?

01:07:17   As we learned, making white plastic that ages well

01:07:20   stands up to heat is really hard.

01:07:21   (laughs)

01:07:22   And they just didn't do it right,

01:07:24   or they hadn't figured it out yet.

01:07:25   So yeah, the black one had a different finish.

01:07:28   The white one had like a glossy, you know, smooth finish.

01:07:31   The black one was like this weird matte,

01:07:32   almost rubbery finish, and it just showed

01:07:36   the slightest hint of finger oil,

01:07:37   just from like picking it up.

01:07:39   You had these giant oily fingerprints visible on the case.

01:07:42   It was really not good.

01:07:44   (laughs)

01:07:45   It was unfortunate, 'cause like,

01:07:46   when it was perfectly immaculate, it did look really nice.

01:07:49   But that lasted like a day and then that was it.

01:07:51   - The aluminum ones had the same problem back in the day.

01:07:54   Like I have one of the later non-unibody

01:07:58   before any unibody Apple portables came out, aluminum.

01:08:02   And that aluminum would get these weird smudges

01:08:06   like they didn't wipe off,

01:08:07   they would end up like discoloring the aluminum

01:08:09   from oils on your fingers or from just kids grossness.

01:08:12   Like you couldn't wash it off and it was not great.

01:08:15   And the new ones like on the MacBook Air,

01:08:17   I know because my kids grimy hands

01:08:18   are all over these things and now the kids have graduated up to or the computers have

01:08:22   graduated down to the kids like then and now they're using old MacBook Air and it just

01:08:26   even though it's the same color it's the same boring silver that it's always been it stands

01:08:31   up better to finger grease and grime and I think the the current crop of like the what

01:08:37   is it the space gray or whatever the darker color one that one seems like it should hold

01:08:42   up even better it's I think I think they finally figured out how to make a surface aluminum

01:08:47   surface that's durable and doesn't discolor and then different colors of it like the gold

01:08:51   and the space grey only improve that because the hardest one to get is the one that's like

01:08:56   the lightest or the closest to white which is the plain old silver so even if I hadn't

01:09:00   seen rumors about this which I had I would have fully expected just because the MacBook

01:09:04   One is available in those colors they'll all be available in those colors because it's

01:09:07   all just aluminum and they're making a million things anodized in different ways and I think

01:09:10   they've really got the anodizing and the surface treatment of this aluminum down at this point

01:09:15   So they totally should do that and I don't know if they're gonna charge more for them.

01:09:19   They didn't with the MacBook 1 and unlike the Blackbook which was whatever you know,

01:09:23   like I said, $150.

01:09:26   It's just a way to make them more attractive machines and if they have a pink one, that

01:09:31   will definitely help because that's the first sort of non-boring color.

01:09:34   Because the other ones are like, "Alright, well there are shades of gray and a gold that

01:09:39   barely looks gold."

01:09:40   Like I would like a red one, a blue one, a yellow one.

01:09:42   You know, we used to have multicolor iMacs and they were fun and we loved them.

01:09:46   Now we're still kind of timidly dipping our toe into colors that are not just different

01:09:52   shades of silver or brown.

01:09:56   And also, you know, just like the actual design of the MacBooks has changed so little in the

01:10:01   last 10 years.

01:10:03   Like going through the unibody transition and then going from unibody to retina, it

01:10:10   it still just kind of looks like the same laptop,

01:10:13   just, you know, thinner.

01:10:15   (laughs)

01:10:15   You know, like it still looks very similar.

01:10:19   And I think they look good.

01:10:21   You know, I think the current design does look good,

01:10:23   but it's pretty boring by now.

01:10:25   It's everywhere and, you know,

01:10:28   as Apple has gotten more popular,

01:10:29   this issue's even gotten worse,

01:10:31   'cause I kind of feel like I want some room

01:10:33   for individuality, and I know I'm not gonna get

01:10:36   a huge amount of that, especially if I buy

01:10:38   a space gray one and show up to an Apple conference.

01:10:40   Like I know I'm not gonna get that much individuality there.

01:10:43   But I would like just something to push us

01:10:46   a little in that direction, you know.

01:10:47   Anyway, if ATP Tips was right,

01:10:50   there's also substantial updates to the MacBook Pro.

01:10:52   And this to me is more interesting.

01:10:54   'Cause the MacBook One we've already seen,

01:10:56   I've already decided it's not for me.

01:10:58   A lot of people have decided that or that it is for them.

01:11:00   And the updates to the MacBook One

01:11:01   is probably gonna be a fairly minor one.

01:11:03   Whereas the update to the MacBook Pro is, if he's right,

01:11:06   rumored to be substantial.

01:11:09   And this is going to be a significant design update

01:11:13   because Skylake has enabled the laptop

01:11:15   to become thinner and lighter,

01:11:16   because they're gonna shave off the quote excess battery.

01:11:20   (laughs)

01:11:21   I love the content of that,

01:11:22   but I'm pretty sure that's how they look at it.

01:11:24   And you could argue whether it is or is not,

01:11:26   'cause I'm sure I will argue that eventually again.

01:11:28   But I expect based on the information here,

01:11:32   I expect that the new MacBook Pro

01:11:35   will look like the MacBook One.

01:11:37   Just not that small, obviously,

01:11:39   but it has similar styling.

01:11:41   So also offered in the colored metals.

01:11:44   A thinner design, probably not tapered,

01:11:46   but a thinner design using Skylake chips.

01:11:49   I would expect roughly the 13 inch MacBook Pro

01:11:52   to be effectively a replacement

01:11:54   for the 13 inch Air at this point.

01:11:57   When they introduced the MacBook One,

01:11:59   fans of the Air were very disappointed

01:12:00   'cause it seemed as though they were probably

01:12:03   not going to ever touch the Air again.

01:12:04   and that the long-wished-for retina air

01:12:07   was probably not going to happen,

01:12:08   that the MacBook One is the retina air.

01:12:11   And that seems, so far that seems to probably be correct.

01:12:14   But the new MacBook Pro, the 13-inch,

01:12:16   if you shave off 20% of the weight of a 13-inch or whatever,

01:12:20   if you shave off a significant chunk of that weight,

01:12:23   then, and make it a little bit thinner,

01:12:25   then the 13-inch MacBook Pro is very close

01:12:28   to the size and weight of a 13-inch air,

01:12:30   and its retina, and its newer and more modern.

01:12:33   And so, supposedly, that sounds really good,

01:12:35   like if that's all true.

01:12:37   And the rumor is also that it retains the same ports,

01:12:42   it's not like gonna lose tons of ports,

01:12:44   it's gonna retain the ports,

01:12:45   and just trade in the Thunderbolts

01:12:47   for new USB-C Thunderbolt 3 ports.

01:12:51   And if that's true, that's great,

01:12:53   that sounds like a great laptop.

01:12:54   Like the 15 or the 13, they're both,

01:12:58   Tipster says they're both gonna be like that.

01:13:01   I would love either of those, honestly.

01:13:02   The 13 would be a fantastic replacement for the MacBook Air,

01:13:06   at least the 13 inch version of the MacBook Air.

01:13:08   11 inch Air fans, I'm sorry you're just screwed,

01:13:10   you gotta deal with the MacBook One.

01:13:11   But if you're a fan of the 13 inch Air,

01:13:14   I think the 13 inch Pro then, if this is all true,

01:13:17   that will be awesome.

01:13:19   That'll be a fantastic all around laptop.

01:13:21   It'll be thin and light and powerful

01:13:24   and will have a retina screen

01:13:25   and tons of ports for usefulness.

01:13:27   That sounds great.

01:13:29   The 15 inch will also become even more compelling.

01:13:32   So if this all works out, then the 15 inch

01:13:34   kind of like drops itself by like half a weight class

01:13:37   basically, so it becomes even thinner and lighter

01:13:40   and it's already, the current 15 is already pretty good

01:13:44   for a 15 inch.

01:13:45   This becomes even thinner and lighter.

01:13:46   I really hope this is all true.

01:13:48   I would love to see this come out next week.

01:13:51   If not, we'll probably have it at WBC maybe

01:13:54   or sometime between now and then.

01:13:55   But if you look at what's in this event,

01:13:57   you have the new iPad and then you have what we have

01:14:00   which is the new four-inch iPhone.

01:14:03   Those are both kinda like mid-grade to low-end products.

01:14:07   Oh, and also new watch bands, but not even,

01:14:10   and possibly a minor update to the watch,

01:14:12   but probably not even that.

01:14:13   You kinda have all these kinda low-end,

01:14:16   low-profile products.

01:14:18   I'm hoping the MacBooks are what makes the event

01:14:20   kinda complete then.

01:14:22   The MacBooks and the MacBook Pros would be like,

01:14:24   this is, it isn't just all boring low-end stuff,

01:14:27   it's also, hey, here's some new stuff

01:14:30   for the laptops that you're all using.

01:14:32   Here's significant new versions of these laptops.

01:14:35   I hope that's what's going on here.

01:14:36   Now, about that four-inch iPhone.

01:14:39   What do you guys think about that?

01:14:40   John, you used a four-inch device for so long,

01:14:42   would you get a four-inch iPhone?

01:14:44   - I can't go back now, I think.

01:14:45   I've been thinking about it,

01:14:46   and we have enough little iPod touches around the house.

01:14:49   In some ways, I miss the portability,

01:14:52   but I'm just so used to the big screen now.

01:14:55   I don't think I can go back.

01:14:57   The iPhone 6 does still feel a little bit unwieldy

01:14:59   my pocket but I don't, if I went to a store and I would, you know, my two years was up

01:15:04   and I needed a new phone, I think I'd pick the 6 size.

01:15:07   So I'm a convert, but I would assume that they are going to offer the smaller phone

01:15:13   and that the smaller phone will be cheaper.

01:15:15   In keeping with the trend that the Plus is more expensive than the 6, the smaller phone

01:15:20   will be less expensive than the 6 size devices, probably out of proportion to the cost savings

01:15:26   that they get from using a smaller screen, right?

01:15:28   Right, because they do get some cost savings

01:15:30   from using a smaller screen and a smaller battery.

01:15:33   And like all that stuff does cost less,

01:15:34   but not, you know, not that much less.

01:15:38   I think that this will be the lowest end

01:15:42   of the current generation of iPhones,

01:15:45   which is kind of a shame for the people

01:15:46   who are hoping for the best that Apple could pack

01:15:50   into a small package,

01:15:51   but I think they're going to be disappointed.

01:15:54   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:15:55   It's funny because I definitely wanted all the new insides

01:16:00   when I got the six last, or I guess two years ago now.

01:16:03   But I really didn't want a bigger phone.

01:16:07   And to this day, the phone doesn't feel bad in my hand,

01:16:12   but we use a 5S as like a noise maker

01:16:17   when Declan is sleeping.

01:16:18   So I handle a 5S at least once a day.

01:16:21   And oh man, does that feel so much better in my hand.

01:16:24   It feels perfect in my hand, it really does.

01:16:28   And I think that's 95% size and a little bit the edges,

01:16:33   but mostly it's the size.

01:16:36   The problem though is that I don't know if I can go back

01:16:39   from a phone that's got this much screen real estate.

01:16:43   And so I think like Jon, I probably am a permanent convert.

01:16:48   I mean, I'm not a maniac, I'm not gonna go plus club,

01:16:50   but I think I'm a permanent convert in the six size category,

01:16:54   but gosh, I'm gonna have a real crisis of decision making

01:17:01   when they show us something that looks really pretty

01:17:06   but is the same size as a 5S.

01:17:08   - I have high hopes for this phone,

01:17:11   even though I don't plan to get one.

01:17:12   I'm glad that it's even rumored that it's very,

01:17:14   it looks like it's very likely to happen.

01:17:15   I'm glad that they care about the four inch size.

01:17:18   - iPhone 6 and 6 Plus sizes are good for a lot of people,

01:17:22   but not everyone.

01:17:23   And to totally abandon the four inch line,

01:17:26   I think would have been a mistake,

01:17:28   and would have really made life a little less convenient

01:17:31   for a lot of people.

01:17:33   So I'm really glad they're doing this.

01:17:34   I'm very happy that we're gonna have these options

01:17:36   in the lineup again for people who do want them.

01:17:38   And I'm glad that the option is just gonna be like,

01:17:41   oh, you can choose either a new giant phone

01:17:44   or an old piece of crap.

01:17:45   'Cause it seems like the gap between,

01:17:47   If the rumored specs are correct,

01:17:49   it's gonna basically be a mini 6S

01:17:51   with maybe a little bit lower clock speed

01:17:54   for thermal reasons, but it seems like it's going to have

01:17:57   current generation hardware for the most part.

01:18:00   We'll see, I don't think we know really

01:18:01   what the camera's gonna be yet.

01:18:03   It probably won't be as good as the 6

01:18:04   just for size or cost reasons,

01:18:05   but it's probably gonna be close.

01:18:07   I think it's going to be a really nice product

01:18:12   for a lot of people,

01:18:13   and I'm glad Apple's gonna have it in line up.

01:18:14   I do think, you know, John, you know, you kinda,

01:18:17   you talked about this a little bit,

01:18:17   I do think it is kind of unfortunate

01:18:20   that Apple charges by size, so by pricing,

01:18:24   they are going to have to make this

01:18:25   like the lowest specced phone,

01:18:27   in addition to the, you know,

01:18:29   the kinda smallest one in the lineup.

01:18:31   It does kinda suck that people who get the small phone

01:18:34   are probably never gonna have the best hardware,

01:18:37   but it'll be better than using, you know,

01:18:39   two-year-old, three-year-old hardware, so.

01:18:41   You know, overall, pretty good.

01:18:44   I'm looking forward to it. Design wise, I'm totally with you guys. I really don't care

01:18:49   for the 6 physical design at all. I think, and the 6S made it slightly better by making

01:18:55   the finish on the case slightly less slippery, but not enough. I really do not like the little

01:19:02   slippery bar of soap design. I don't like that I have to use a case now. I use Apple's

01:19:07   leather case now just to give it grip. I don't like cases. I don't like having all the dust

01:19:11   to collect around the edge, I don't like the extra bulk

01:19:14   that they add, I don't like spending another 40 bucks

01:19:18   every time I buy a new phone.

01:19:19   Cases are a really inelegant solution,

01:19:23   and I know lots of people use them, and that's fine.

01:19:26   But surely it's better if you design a phone

01:19:29   that doesn't need a case for so many people.

01:19:31   Some people are gonna use a case regardless,

01:19:32   a lot of people are gonna use a case regardless.

01:19:34   I didn't use a case for any of my phones before this,

01:19:36   and it was fine.

01:19:37   And the 6 and the 6S, I need a case to hold them securely.

01:19:41   and that kinda sucks.

01:19:43   I'm hoping with the iPhone 7 design this fall,

01:19:46   I'm hoping that it improves

01:19:49   the real world holdability somehow.

01:19:53   I'm honestly not that hopeful that it will.

01:19:55   - I'm not as down on the sixth shape.

01:19:57   In fact, I kinda wish I could use it without a case

01:20:00   'cause it's so nice to have the curved glass

01:20:02   and the case messes that up for edge swipes

01:20:04   and stuff like that. - Oh yes, oh yes.

01:20:05   - But on the other hand, I really like my leather case.

01:20:07   I like the fact that it is protected by this thin layer

01:20:10   stuff that can get nicked up and that I can replace that and that is grippy because the

01:20:14   leather is way more grippy than anything aluminum is ever going to be.

01:20:18   And I like that.

01:20:19   That's why I would use silicone cases for such a long time.

01:20:21   I like the grippiness.

01:20:23   But if a 7 is like this, like because I'll be getting a 7, you know, my 6 will, my two

01:20:27   years with my 6 will be up and I'll end up getting a 7 and if it's more or less like

01:20:31   the 6 but improved insides, I'm fine with it.

01:20:36   - So important question to go back to the four inch phone,

01:20:40   does it or does it not have a camera bulge?

01:20:43   (laughing)

01:20:44   - I'm gonna think no, right?

01:20:46   You gotta not have one.

01:20:48   - You know, it depends.

01:20:49   So the reason I bring up the seven also now is like,

01:20:51   you know, so we have this release that's literally

01:20:53   halfway between the six and the seven,

01:20:56   or the six S and the seven design releases.

01:20:59   This phone, obviously, they're gonna want it

01:21:01   to be in the lineup for a while.

01:21:03   They're not gonna want, you know,

01:21:04   we're not gonna make it look outdated in six months,

01:21:07   ideally.

01:21:08   So I'm guessing, so you figure like,

01:21:11   will the design of the new four inch phone

01:21:14   more closely resemble the 6S or the 7?

01:21:18   Or the 5S, yeah that was one of the earlier rumors,

01:21:20   I don't see that.

01:21:21   - Well, 'cause the 5S didn't have a bulge,

01:21:23   so that's what makes me think that if they're making

01:21:25   a new four inch phone, the only reason you need the bulge

01:21:28   is we need to have the best camera,

01:21:30   and the best camera is just too big to fit.

01:21:32   If it's too big to fit,

01:21:33   won't give you the best camera and they're gonna have a non-bulging camera on the 7 it seems like so

01:21:37   they could even put that in there if they want to have the good camera it just seems like they're

01:21:41   they're non-bulge options are so many including actually making including actually making the

01:21:47   thing a little bit thicker because hey this isn't the fanciest one it's a little bit thicker it

01:21:51   could still be thinner than the 5s and still not have a bulge i think i feel like the bulge days

01:21:55   for this class are probably over and the only reason the ipod touch still has is because no

01:22:00   no one cares about the iPod touch,

01:22:01   and because the iPod touch is insanely thin.

01:22:03   (laughing)

01:22:05   - Yeah, I hope it doesn't have a bulge.

01:22:08   But yeah, so anyway, I'm really curious to see,

01:22:11   will the design of the new four-inch phone

01:22:13   give us any hints towards the design of the seven, basically?

01:22:17   Will it indicate where they're going?

01:22:21   Or is it just gonna look old?

01:22:23   Or the sixth design, I think, is ugly, certainly.

01:22:27   I think it has very little personality.

01:22:30   If you look at almost every previous iPhone,

01:22:33   except maybe the 3G, if you look at all the other ones,

01:22:36   I think they have a more distinct look.

01:22:39   If you look at the 6, I think it looks like

01:22:41   every Android phone, and part of that's 'cause

01:22:42   Android's been copying Apple like crazy,

01:22:44   but part of that is also just like,

01:22:46   there's less about the 6 that is visually distinctive.

01:22:51   Whereas the 5 and the 5S, these were like

01:22:53   these beautiful, pretty unique looking objects,

01:22:58   and the four before that, again,

01:23:00   like you know, this really like unique,

01:23:01   like double glass kind of thing.

01:23:03   These were like really distinctive looking objects.

01:23:05   The six just isn't distinctive, it just looks like a blob,

01:23:07   and it feels like a blob, and the back I think is ugly.

01:23:11   - I like the six look better than the five,

01:23:12   I never liked the five design,

01:23:14   it just seemed like a boring tub of aluminum,

01:23:16   chamfered edge was not enough to redeem it for me,

01:23:19   it's like just aesthetically, and I think the six,

01:23:22   The 6 was not the first phone to use curved glass at the edge, many other phones including

01:23:26   Android phones did that first, so, but I think Apple was wise to pick that up.

01:23:30   The reason I think the 6 looks better is because I like that, I like both the appearance and

01:23:34   the feel of the glass curving into the rest of the case.

01:23:37   And the back of it doesn't look that impressive but I don't think it has to.

01:23:40   I think it's pleasingly smooth, I think they did an admirable job of blending in those

01:23:44   weird antenna lines, like that looks expensive and fancy to me even if aesthetically it doesn't

01:23:50   look particularly nice.

01:23:52   If this case is to be believed,

01:23:54   they've changed that antenna line

01:23:56   to look a little bit more swoopy

01:23:58   and a little bit less utilitarian,

01:24:00   but we don't know what the front of it looks like.

01:24:01   I assume it looks the same,

01:24:02   but I think you can change the look of the front by,

01:24:06   I mean, adjusting chin sizes or, you know,

01:24:10   you could do much more interesting things

01:24:12   with the front of the iPhone

01:24:13   than they're currently doing now.

01:24:14   And the back of it, they're anodizing it in various colors,

01:24:17   all of which are very subtle.

01:24:18   I would say the same thing.

01:24:19   I mean, I've been saying this for years that,

01:24:21   you know, and I liked the 5C.

01:24:23   I liked the fact that they offered it

01:24:24   in a bunch of rainbow colors.

01:24:26   Why can't you do that for the expensive phones?

01:24:28   Why do you have to choose between the fastest insides

01:24:31   or the fun colors?

01:24:32   There, you know, we all know one or two people

01:24:34   who ended up getting a 5C, at least partially,

01:24:36   because it's a more fun color.

01:24:38   And sometimes they would sacrifice.

01:24:39   They would say, well, I know it's not as fast

01:24:41   and I would really like the faster one,

01:24:43   but I really want to have a yellow phone

01:24:44   'cause it looks cool.

01:24:46   Like the 5C was its own case.

01:24:47   And I thought that was interesting and fun.

01:24:49   and the top end phones still don't do that.

01:24:51   So I think there's plenty of room to visually differentiate

01:24:54   but if this one just ends up being a nicer 6,

01:24:57   I will be fine with that.

01:24:58   And I think the market will be fine with it too.

01:25:01   - Yeah, I feel like I'm between you guys

01:25:03   in that I definitely think that the 5 looked great

01:25:08   and is probably my favorite of all the iPhone designs,

01:25:12   but the 6 looks really good.

01:25:14   And I made the tragic mistake of taking my 6s

01:25:18   out of my case as you guys were talking,

01:25:20   and now I'm holding it naked in my hands.

01:25:22   - Don't spill water on it.

01:25:23   - I will attempt not to.

01:25:25   This phone does, I mean, I like the leather case a lot.

01:25:29   I've had Apple leather cases since I can remember,

01:25:32   pretty much since they were offered.

01:25:33   But this phone without a case on it

01:25:36   does feel really good in the hand,

01:25:39   in that it's more, it's both more and less comfortable,

01:25:42   right, because it's more comfortable

01:25:43   in that the edges are a little easier on the hand,

01:25:46   but it's less comfortable in that it's bigger.

01:25:48   In fact, it's a little too big if I'm trying to reach

01:25:50   from, with my right hand, from the bottom right

01:25:53   where my thumb is, all the way up to the upper left.

01:25:55   And the, I don't even remember what it's called,

01:25:58   the little mode where everything kind of drops down

01:26:01   a little bit, where you double--

01:26:02   - Reachability.

01:26:03   - Yes, that's right, that's right.

01:26:05   That is just such a hack.

01:26:07   But, I don't know, it's tough because I both love

01:26:11   and wish for less in the six,

01:26:15   but I don't think I could go back to a smaller screen.

01:26:17   I really don't.

01:26:19   - Yeah, I don't think I could either.

01:26:20   I mean, it's like when you move up monitor sizes

01:26:23   on your computer, it's really hard to ever move down.

01:26:26   I think the same thing with the phone,

01:26:27   if not even more so, 'cause it's just how often

01:26:29   you use a phone.

01:26:30   I think once you move up to a big screen size,

01:26:34   I think moving back down would,

01:26:37   you could probably get used to it after like a week,

01:26:40   but during that week, you'd be regretting

01:26:42   every single minute getting that phone,

01:26:44   and you might return it or, yeah, I don't know.

01:26:46   I think moving back would be difficult, but not impossible.

01:26:50   - Yeah.

01:26:51   - But yeah, I don't know.

01:26:51   I mean the fact is, I'm actually thinking about

01:26:53   getting the Plus in the next generation.

01:26:56   - You're an animal.

01:26:57   - Because as I said, Mike might have been right.

01:26:59   - This is how we're gonna get you into an iPad.

01:27:01   Your phone is just gonna keep getting bigger and bigger

01:27:02   until you realize you're holding a 15 inch iPad Pro

01:27:05   and you're like, "Boy, this phone seems really big."

01:27:07   - Yeah, well let me explain my possible Plus lust

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01:29:30   So, seven plus, or pro, whatever.

01:29:34   The rumors keep swirling that it might be called iPhone Pro

01:29:37   or there might be another model called iPhone Pro.

01:29:39   - What's pro about it though?

01:29:41   I guess the camera's better.

01:29:42   - Yeah, it's-- - But other than that.

01:29:44   - And it's big.

01:29:45   I guess with the iPad they're gonna confuse what that means.

01:29:48   But the reason I'm tempted to do this,

01:29:51   and we'll see what, I mean,

01:29:52   obviously we don't know anything about this product yet,

01:29:54   except that it probably will exist

01:29:57   and that it might contain a cool dual camera system

01:30:00   that the smaller phone won't have.

01:30:02   If that's all true, and if it doesn't really suck

01:30:05   for some other way, some other reason.

01:30:07   I'm tempted to get it because A, I don't use an iPad.

01:30:10   B, I use my phone for so much.

01:30:14   Like my phone is really my main computer

01:30:19   for so much of the day, for so many parts of my life,

01:30:23   while I'm traveling, while I'm just running errands

01:30:26   around town, while I'm just in different parts of my house

01:30:29   and not in my office.

01:30:31   My phone is my computer for so much of every day.

01:30:35   I do so much on my phone.

01:30:36   And there are often times when I wish

01:30:39   for a little more screen space.

01:30:41   There are frequently times when I wish

01:30:43   for more battery life.

01:30:44   And there are frequently times where I wish

01:30:46   I could type a little bit more accurately.

01:30:48   And I've found in my brief times using a 6 Plus,

01:30:51   like on a couple of trips I've taken it on,

01:30:54   I have found that I can type more accurately

01:30:56   'cause the keys are larger on that phone.

01:30:58   It seems like my iPhone typing scales up in accuracy

01:31:02   with size where like, when I tried using a 5S the other day

01:31:06   for testing for when I was doing overcast testing,

01:31:08   and I was a mess on that keyboard.

01:31:10   Like I don't know how I ever typed on those keyboards before

01:31:14   and on the 6, I'm okay.

01:31:17   But on the 6 Plus, I'm way more accurate.

01:31:20   So I think it just kind of fits the way I thumb type better.

01:31:24   So I think I could actually do a lot more

01:31:27   while I'm away from my computer if I use the plus size phone

01:31:31   instead of the regular size phone.

01:31:33   Plus, when I have used it,

01:31:35   I've been very happy with those benefits.

01:31:37   My only reservations are that also when I've used it,

01:31:40   I've been really turned off by how big it is in my pocket.

01:31:44   So that's something I would have to consider.

01:31:46   But I don't know, you guys sound like you're pretty set

01:31:49   on not going the plus size.

01:31:51   - Wait, wait, can we just back up?

01:31:53   So you're saying that you really, really, really love

01:31:56   the feel of a four-inch phone,

01:31:58   but you're probably going to get the 17-inch phone

01:32:02   for your next phone.

01:32:03   - It just needs to have all three.

01:32:04   And so depending on his movement at the moment,

01:32:06   he just needs to get those tactical pants

01:32:09   with the really big pockets in them

01:32:10   so he can have all three.

01:32:11   And depending on, do I feel like typing more efficiently?

01:32:13   Do I wanna have a little worry stone that I rub in my hand?

01:32:16   I'll pull out the four-inch phone.

01:32:17   Do I want to have the in-between size?

01:32:19   I'll pull out the six.

01:32:20   That's the only solution for you, apparently.

01:32:22   - Oh my goodness.

01:32:23   I do not wanna hear Mike's feedback for this episode.

01:32:26   I'm already dreading it.

01:32:27   - What would you think if the 7 Plus

01:32:30   had a smart connector on it?

01:32:31   - I don't buy that for a second.

01:32:33   - Now, I'm not saying that I think that's gonna happen,

01:32:36   but what would you think of that product?

01:32:38   Is that product more valuable to you, less valuable to you,

01:32:42   or the same and you think it's just silly?

01:32:44   - Well, look at what the smart connector does so far.

01:32:46   So the rumor of the new iPad is that it will also,

01:32:51   The new 10-inch iPad will allegedly have

01:32:54   pencil support, iPad Pro class CPU,

01:32:56   although probably not quite as high-clocked,

01:32:58   and smart connector for the,

01:33:01   currently the only things that can use the smart connector

01:33:02   are smart keyboards from Apple and Logitech.

01:33:04   - And four gigs of RAM, please, four gigs of RAM.

01:33:06   - Yeah, hopefully.

01:33:07   We still don't know what the smart connector will be for

01:33:11   on the 10-inch iPad.

01:33:12   We can assume it will probably be for a smart keyboard,

01:33:16   but part of the benefit of the smart keyboard,

01:33:19   I'd say probably the biggest benefit of it,

01:33:22   is that it functions as a regular iPad cover,

01:33:25   a bigger, bulkier one, but still a regular iPad cover,

01:33:28   so that it has to actually remain the same size

01:33:32   as the iPad for it to keep that benefit.

01:33:35   So I'm assuming there would also be a second version

01:33:38   of the Apple Smart Keyboard that would be smaller

01:33:41   and would fit that size.

01:33:42   And that makes sense.

01:33:43   I mean, have you guys ever used an iPad keyboard cover

01:33:46   for the 10 inch iPad from Logitech and stuff?

01:33:48   - Yep.

01:33:49   - I don't think I have, no.

01:33:51   - They're pretty good.

01:33:52   I mean, like, you know, they're cramped, but they're usable.

01:33:54   - They're not good to type on.

01:33:55   They're good in that they, when you close them,

01:33:57   they're the same size as your iPod,

01:33:59   but as soon as you open it up, they're a terrible keyboard.

01:34:01   (laughing)

01:34:01   - I would say they're okay.

01:34:03   I mean, you know, for, as much as you can make

01:34:05   a usable keyboard that's only, you know,

01:34:07   nine inches or whatever wide, it's, they're not bad.

01:34:11   So it's possible to make one that's usable.

01:34:14   However, it's not possible, in my opinion,

01:34:16   to make one that's usable for the iPad Mini.

01:34:18   They've tried, companies have tried.

01:34:21   - If you're an elf, you can use it.

01:34:23   - The ones for the Mini are really,

01:34:26   I think that has crossed a threshold

01:34:28   where it's just not possible to comfortably touch type

01:34:32   on something that size.

01:34:34   I think obviously there is a limitation here

01:34:36   of how small can you make a keyboard cover

01:34:39   that is the same size as the device that it's covering

01:34:42   and have it still be a usable physical keyboard?

01:34:45   - I don't accept that limitation though,

01:34:46   which is why I brought it up for the 7 Plus.

01:34:48   'Cause obviously in the 7 Plus,

01:34:50   the smart connector on the,

01:34:51   the hypothetical smart connector on the side,

01:34:53   thought exercise,

01:34:54   you wouldn't be for a keyboard

01:34:55   that's the same size as the 7 Plus.

01:34:58   You would have to break out of that

01:34:59   and be more like the old Palm things

01:35:00   where you have this little tiny screen,

01:35:03   but say you're on a plane

01:35:05   and you have stashed in your backpack,

01:35:06   a full-size keyboard with a smart connector.

01:35:09   - Like it unfolds?

01:35:11   - Yeah, and then you'd be like,

01:35:12   oh, I have to do some serious emailing here.

01:35:14   I don't want to thumb type it,

01:35:15   even on my 7 Plus, turn it sideways, smart connector,

01:35:18   shove it into the little keyboard,

01:35:19   put it on your tray table, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

01:35:20   and then the keyboard goes away.

01:35:21   Like the keyboard, you no longer have to tie the keyboard

01:35:24   to the size of the device,

01:35:26   then that would let you sort of,

01:35:29   what would be your sort of on your road thing?

01:35:30   I don't need to bring my MacBook One,

01:35:31   all I gotta bring is my iPhone 7 Plus

01:35:34   and my folded up smart connector keyboard/stand

01:35:37   for the 7 Plus if I need to do serious typing.

01:35:41   - Well, you could also do that

01:35:41   with a Bluetooth keyboard though.

01:35:43   - Yeah, yeah, no, I know,

01:35:44   But the smart connector is like you don't have to have an extra battery that you have

01:35:46   to do and it could be thinner, it could be parried from the phone in the 7 Plus which

01:35:50   you're hoping has enough to power the light demands of a keyboard and it can be magnetic

01:35:54   and it can fold up and be the cloth thing like and you don't have to deal with Bluetooth

01:35:59   because in my experience the tenuous connection between any device and its Bluetooth accessories

01:36:04   is not a fun thing to have to manage.

01:36:06   I never have problems with my keyboard and mouse but I mean teach their own.

01:36:10   It's not the keyboard and mouse that like you have right in front of your computer.

01:36:13   like my experiences are all WWC because it's the only time I ever use any Bluetooth accessories.

01:36:18   Constantly my iPad losing the Bluetooth connection to the keyboard and my iPad losing the tethering

01:36:22   connection to my phone.

01:36:24   - The other problem with a smart keyboard also is that the smart keyboard, at least

01:36:30   as we know it so far, the smart connected devices are powered by the host iOS device.

01:36:36   In theory, this smart connector on an iPhone would have to use the iPhone's battery to

01:36:41   power the keyboard.

01:36:42   So keyboards, any kind of wireless or otherwise keyboard,

01:36:46   they use very little power.

01:36:48   They really don't take much.

01:36:49   But do you really want something else draining power

01:36:52   from the phone?

01:36:53   Like yet another thing draining power from the phone?

01:36:55   - I'm just assuming the keyboard,

01:36:57   the power demands are so incredibly light.

01:36:59   Like that you wouldn't even care.

01:37:01   That it would be like, it would be less power

01:37:04   than turning Bluetooth on.

01:37:05   - It might be, I don't know.

01:37:06   But it's yet one more thing to consider.

01:37:09   So basically, we know Apple will say no to a lot of things

01:37:13   that they just think would be clunky

01:37:15   or would not have enough sat or whatever.

01:37:18   I don't see them doing this.

01:37:21   I just don't see them thinking that enough people

01:37:26   want to use external keyboards on their iPhones

01:37:30   that it would be worth making this.

01:37:31   I mean, does anybody--

01:37:32   - Well, the phone was just a mental exercise,

01:37:34   but the more concrete one is the 9.7-inch iPad,

01:37:38   which we all think is gonna have a smart connector.

01:37:40   And now I'm saying, what if you had a 9.7 inch iPad?

01:37:43   Do you have to have a keyboard that is the size of the 9.7

01:37:46   or can you actually use a larger full-size keyboard

01:37:48   with that?

01:37:49   Why would you not want to use it?

01:37:50   Like, does it have to be a keyboard slash also the thing

01:37:53   that covers up my iPad?

01:37:54   Why can't those be two distinct things

01:37:56   or why can't you have one without the other?

01:37:58   Because that size, I think it starts to make more sense.

01:38:01   The phone is the more extreme example.

01:38:02   And because I'm thinking of these phones getting bigger

01:38:06   and more powerful and you graduating up to them,

01:38:08   moving your way up to the iPad.

01:38:09   So the phone is just to sort of ring out

01:38:13   whether this is a product that might be useful,

01:38:15   but we, you know, not that we know,

01:38:17   but we're pretty sure

01:38:18   there's gonna be a smart connector there.

01:38:19   And I've used those small keyboards

01:38:21   and I don't think they're great.

01:38:22   And once you have the smart connector on that one,

01:38:24   I feel like, you know, if I was again,

01:38:26   trying to assemble a WWDC bag

01:38:28   and I wasn't allowed to use an Apple laptop for some reason,

01:38:32   I would choose a smart connector keyboard

01:38:34   and a 9.7 inch iPad Pro over a Bluetooth keyboard

01:38:39   and that same thing?

01:38:41   - Oh, I would too, certainly.

01:38:42   But we'll see what options we end up having.

01:38:45   But I suspect that if they do this,

01:38:48   if there is new iPad and if it has a smart connector

01:38:52   and if they release an appropriately sized version

01:38:55   of the smart keyboard to plug into it,

01:38:58   it's probably gonna be decent.

01:38:59   It's probably not gonna be like an amazing keyboard.

01:39:01   I mean, the current smart keyboard

01:39:02   isn't an amazing keyboard, it's okay.

01:39:05   Most people who use it say it's roughly similar,

01:39:07   if not slightly better than the MacBook One keyboard.

01:39:10   And yeah, the reason I have tried

01:39:12   iPad keyboard case covers before

01:39:14   is because that combo, having an iPad on a keyboard cover,

01:39:18   is really nice on airplane tray tables.

01:39:20   It is awesome for that because it fits on any of them.

01:39:24   And if you don't already have a tiny laptop,

01:39:27   that can be your airplane laptop.

01:39:29   Not for doing tons of stuff if you don't usually,

01:39:32   if you're not usually accustomed to an iPad workflow,

01:39:34   but it can be pretty cool for a flight.

01:39:36   So if they do this in a good way for the 10-inch iPad,

01:39:42   that's great, they're gonna sell a good number

01:39:44   of them probably, I hope it'll be good.

01:39:46   Again, I probably won't have any reason

01:39:47   to ever buy one myself, but that's gonna be really nice.

01:39:51   So good on them.

01:39:52   So I think if you look at this event into,

01:39:55   oh, we haven't talked about watch bands yet.

01:39:57   Gotta talk about watch bands.

01:39:58   That's the last thing in the event, right?

01:39:59   - You're not even wearing your watch watch anymore.

01:40:01   What do you care, Mr. Mechanical Watch?

01:40:03   - It's over there on top of my thing on my desk.

01:40:05   - Mm-hmm.

01:40:07   - Next to Tiff's, who's also not wearing hers anymore.

01:40:09   - Well, not all of us are too cool for them,

01:40:11   and so I'm curious to see what the bands are

01:40:13   that they have in this particular event,

01:40:17   but I don't feel like I'm in the market for one.

01:40:20   I am fine with my sport band.

01:40:22   I only have the one band for the Apple Watch,

01:40:25   and I don't yearn for another,

01:40:27   but I'm curious to see what they come up with.

01:40:30   - Yeah, I mean the rumors are that, you know,

01:40:33   I mean it's almost a given there,

01:40:34   that if they're going to make new bands at all,

01:40:37   they're almost certainly gonna have new colors

01:40:39   of a sport band, 'cause that's easy, right?

01:40:40   You know, that doesn't take like a major, you know,

01:40:43   rethinking of everything, and that's easy to change out

01:40:46   with seasonal and annual fashion changes.

01:40:49   So they're probably going to do that.

01:40:50   But also, a very strong rumor from,

01:40:53   that I've heard a number of times,

01:40:54   is that they might do a NATO style strap,

01:40:56   which I think would be a smart move,

01:40:58   because those are very much in fashion right now.

01:41:00   - Wait, what does that mean?

01:41:00   - I don't know what that is.

01:41:01   No one knows what that is but you, Margot.

01:41:03   - It's, I don't personally care for them,

01:41:06   so I'll probably explain them poorly.

01:41:07   - Is it N-A-T-O?

01:41:08   - Yeah, yeah, like the organization.

01:41:10   It's like--

01:41:11   - North American Treaty Organization.

01:41:13   No, North Atlantic?

01:41:14   What the hell is it?

01:41:15   Oh no.

01:41:16   It's North Atlantic, I think.

01:41:18   - I don't know.

01:41:19   But they're like, they're like,

01:41:20   usually they're like a fabric, like a woven fabric.

01:41:25   I think they often have a stripe.

01:41:27   You know, it's like, I'm probably destroying this

01:41:30   for people who love these things,

01:41:31   'cause again, I don't really care for them,

01:41:33   so I don't know much about them,

01:41:34   but I know they're very much in fashion.

01:41:37   So yeah, if you go search for NATO strap,

01:41:38   you'll see what I'm talking about.

01:41:39   You can see, if you do the same search,

01:41:41   you can see they always have this weird little,

01:41:42   like, kind of double loop attachment mechanism.

01:41:45   They're kind of bulky,

01:41:47   but because they're a woven nylon mesh, usually,

01:41:51   they're usually very comfortable,

01:41:53   just a little bit large for my taste,

01:41:54   but people like them a lot.

01:41:56   They're very much in fashion.

01:41:57   - Watch fashion is like,

01:41:58   I would like a miniature version

01:42:00   of the Manhattan skyline on my wrist.

01:42:01   'Cause that shows that I'm a city person

01:42:03   and I love Manhattan.

01:42:04   Okay.

01:42:05   Like this NATO stretch.

01:42:06   Like it's not, it looks like you tell,

01:42:08   it is meant to evoke,

01:42:10   it seems like the type of straps used to attach equipment

01:42:14   for people in the military

01:42:16   and those type of sort of rugged outdoor mountaineering

01:42:18   type stuff.

01:42:19   But it isn't one.

01:42:20   It is not attaching something that needs to be,

01:42:22   like all those loops are there.

01:42:24   You know, it's like a tiny, it's like an art installation

01:42:28   that is like on your wrist.

01:42:31   It is an imitation of another thing.

01:42:35   And you're confused by the fact, well, it is a strap, right?

01:42:37   It does actually hold it to my wrist.

01:42:38   Yeah, it does hold it to your wrist.

01:42:40   But all the crap on there is from another strap

01:42:44   that does a job, not the job that this thing is doing.

01:42:46   And I just, I can't imagine.

01:42:49   I can't imagine adding like adding additional metal things

01:42:52   to a strap that's gonna be around my wrist

01:42:54   that are non-functional.

01:42:55   Like, no, I don't, like that's why the,

01:42:58   what do you call it?

01:42:59   The plasticky floristomer, the sport straps appeal to me

01:43:03   because for the most part, they'd say,

01:43:05   well, it's just a thing that goes on your wrist

01:43:08   and let's make it as squishy and as comfortable as possible.

01:43:10   They kind of go weird with the classroom mechanism.

01:43:12   But anyway, suffice it to say,

01:43:14   I'm obviously not in the market for a new strap.

01:43:16   Although what I would buy for $30 from Apple

01:43:20   is a slightly smaller version of the little leather band

01:43:25   that holds the, you know, on the classic buckle

01:43:28   or whatever the leather strap is that I have,

01:43:31   that holds the little tongue, you know,

01:43:32   the excess tongue that sticks out,

01:43:34   that little band that's supposed to hold it

01:43:36   needs to be slightly smaller

01:43:38   because the little tongue slips out too easily.

01:43:39   - That happens with every leather watch band I've ever used.

01:43:42   - But you just gotta make it a little bit smaller,

01:43:44   not a lot smaller, just a little bit.

01:43:46   - Well, or they could just put in a deployant or something,

01:43:48   but that's too fancy, they probably won't do that.

01:43:50   No one knows what that is but you.

01:43:51   It's your version of destiny.

01:43:57   It's just a bunch of weird words that seem like they mean nothing but they're...

01:44:00   Yeah, I agree.

01:44:02   Thank God that Jon actually understands the pain we go through when he gets riffing on

01:44:06   Destiny stuff.

01:44:07   Yeah, but Destiny is real.

01:44:08   Watch bands are just made up stuff.

01:44:10   Right.

01:44:11   So what did you call it?

01:44:12   A deployment?

01:44:13   A deployant.

01:44:14   Oh, that makes even more sense.

01:44:15   It's a type of class.

01:44:16   So normally you have like the little, you know, you put, normally you loop the thing

01:44:20   through the buckle and you loop it up and down, you know, so it kind of tightens that

01:44:23   way. A deployant is something where like you kind of attach it to one of the holes and

01:44:27   then you can open and close it with this metal opening and closing class mechanism. So you

01:44:32   kind of fix the size to where you want it and then it's always at that size, I mean,

01:44:36   until you readjust it. And it holds it flatter and it's quicker to put on and off. So it's

01:44:41   considered a slightly better enclosure, usually it's higher end, but you know, I mean Apple

01:44:46   could offer it for like 30 bucks more, you know, Apple could do a good job with it if

01:44:50   they wanted to, because Apple, honestly, Apple's bands are awesome, like the band, the quality

01:44:56   of Apple's bands, the construction of them, the looks of them, the practicality and the

01:45:02   comfort of Apple's bands is just worlds beyond most, not all, but most of what you can find

01:45:10   in the fancy watch world.

01:45:12   Apple's bands are great.

01:45:13   And they should really be commended on that.

01:45:17   For that being their very first time

01:45:21   they ever tried making a watch

01:45:22   and they make these amazing bands

01:45:24   with this awesome quick detach swap mechanism.

01:45:28   The rest of the watch world has nothing on that.

01:45:30   They're so good.

01:45:31   But there are things that they could borrow

01:45:33   from the watch world to make a few slightly nicer ones.

01:45:36   And one of those would be a decent leather with a deployment

01:45:39   but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

01:45:42   - Man, you really went.

01:45:43   - I know, the advantage, Jon, if you,

01:45:46   the reason I brought this up is that

01:45:48   deployants usually don't have that problem

01:45:51   with the leather bands with the ends slipping out,

01:45:53   'cause it's kinda, the way it's held,

01:45:54   it's kinda held in a more fixed way.

01:45:56   It doesn't usually happen that way.

01:45:58   I don't actually own any of these, but.

01:46:00   - I doubt I would buy one at the prices, though.

01:46:02   Like, I haven't even been able to bring myself

01:46:03   to buy a sport one just because it feels like

01:46:05   it's not worth 50 bucks for a piece of plastic

01:46:06   or whatever they charge, and honestly,

01:46:08   leather strap is fine. The one annoyance is that the thing slips out.

01:46:12   I just can't believe how deep into the dark side, into the deep end or whatever, you went

01:46:18   on this watch stuff. Hey, you know how I do things.

01:46:21   I knew it was bad, but woof. It's right up his alley.

01:46:24   Yeah, but wow. This is... I feel like we need an intervention at this point.

01:46:28   No, he's fine. Everyone needs a hobby. This is a pretty benign hobby as far as hobbies.

01:46:35   He's into jewelry, essentially, or jewelry, as people say.

01:46:38   Yeah.

01:46:39   Yeah, it's jewelry.

01:46:40   I like it.

01:46:41   Thanks so much for three sponsors this week, Backblaze, MailRoute, and DevMate, and we

01:46:45   will see you next week.

01:46:46   [music]

01:46:48   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:46:53   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:46:58   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:47:03   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:47:09   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:47:14   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:47:24   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:47:28   Auntie Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-Racusa

01:47:36   It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:47:39   They didn't mean to, accidental (accidental)

01:47:44   Tech podcast so long

01:47:48   Jon, what the hell happened to your iPod Touch?

01:47:50   It's stolen out of my car.

01:47:52   People have broken into our cars while they sat on our driveways many times over the years that we've lived here.

01:47:59   Apparently this is a thing that people do. They just wander through the neighborhood.

01:48:02   At your house?

01:48:03   Yeah, they just wander through the neighborhood at night while everyone is asleep and check for open cars and when they find one they take any valuable stuff out of it.

01:48:09   Why would you not lock your car?

01:48:11   your car. I always lock my car. I obsessively lock my car. I lock my car when I go into

01:48:17   the elementary school to pick up my daughter for the three seconds it's out there. Always.

01:48:22   Why was the car apparently unlocked? It could be the UI on the key fob where it used to

01:48:28   be three separate buttons, one of which was locked that was a different size than the

01:48:32   other ones and was centrally located and now that we talked about this when I got my new

01:48:36   cord that is just like sort of like a single rectangular region divided in thirds and the

01:48:41   bottom one is lock.

01:48:44   It's not as bad as I thought it was when I first talked about my cord key fob.

01:48:47   I'm pretty good at finding the buttons but it's conceivable that I could mash the wrong

01:48:50   one absentmindedly.

01:48:51   It's also conceivable that someone else in the house could grab some set of keys the

01:48:56   wrong way and accidentally unlock the car because the signal can reach from inside the

01:49:00   house.

01:49:01   Anyway, I probably just forgot.

01:49:03   The scary thing about it is because I am so obsessive about locking my car, it basically

01:49:08   means that every single night someone is checking all the cars, right?

01:49:12   Because one of the odds that the one day I forget to lock it is the one day it gets stolen.

01:49:16   Because literally, I'm really good about locking.

01:49:18   I lock the house, I lock the car, I lock everything.

01:49:20   I'm from New York.

01:49:21   It's like what I do, right?

01:49:22   So it has to be like the one time I slipped up and somebody—the other option is that

01:49:27   they could be breaking in.

01:49:28   And that's the past things—my wife never locks her car, so she's had her car broken

01:49:31   into a million times.

01:49:32   the quarters out of the things. They probably go in there all the time and be like, "Oh,

01:49:35   still nothing good in this car." But she used to have a lot of change in there for parking

01:49:38   meters and that all got taken out a couple years ago. And then one time we came out and

01:49:42   found like in the winter, the window rolled down on my car, or on a car that I had driven

01:49:48   last. And anyone who's ever driven one knows I do not roll down the windows. Like I don't

01:49:52   like when the cars, I would never roll down the windows. In the winter, and I'm always

01:49:55   cold, forget it, right? So I didn't roll down the window on purpose. Don't think I did it

01:49:59   accidentally maybe in the course of trying to break into the car they somehow triggered

01:50:03   the window rolling down I have no freaking idea but anyway this is over the course of

01:50:07   many years and this time they went in and they took my it was I think it was like second

01:50:12   generation iPod touch it was some really old iPod touch it was useless like you couldn't

01:50:16   even give it to a kid the whole point of it is like great this is what you do with old

01:50:19   iPod touches you fill it up with music and you stick it in your car it's your permanent

01:50:23   you know music collection in the car and yeah I use Bluetooth on my phone for the car to

01:50:27   in the podcast, but every once in a while,

01:50:28   I switched to the iPod source.

01:50:29   You get like the display of the songs and everything.

01:50:31   It's just nice to have a separate bucket

01:50:33   for music and playlists and stuff like that.

01:50:36   So they took that, they took the case that it was in,

01:50:38   which was this little cute cloth case

01:50:40   with something from Etsy, I think.

01:50:43   They took the wire.

01:50:44   They did not take the Garmin GPS.

01:50:46   The ancient dedicated Garmin GPS from the pre-iPhone days.

01:50:50   They just couldn't even be bothered.

01:50:52   Even they recognize this as a worthless piece of technology.

01:50:55   Yeah, so that was pretty annoying.

01:50:58   So all I've done is pulled yet another iPod.

01:51:01   I did go through the exercise of finding my iPhone and of course it's not online anymore.

01:51:08   And I set the thing to auto lock if it ever connects to the internet because of course

01:51:12   it didn't have lock on it.

01:51:13   I don't think there was anything on it because I think I had erased everything off of it

01:51:15   except for just a music collection that I...

01:51:17   This iPod touch was too old to even use iCloud stuff.

01:51:20   So I had synced with iTunes my music onto it.

01:51:24   So I think all they've got is my collection of mostly DRM-free music.

01:51:29   If they ever do connect it to the internet, it will automatically lock itself.

01:51:32   Yeah, it's just kind of depressing, kind of sad, and I guess I have to—I was thinking

01:51:39   getting—look, if they're coming every night, I should get one of those little cameras that

01:51:42   I hear advertised on other podcasts and just point it at my car and just see them on their

01:51:46   nightly visit, because really, it's amazing to me that if I forgot to lock my car one

01:51:51   night and that's not how it gets broken into because I'm really very very sure that

01:51:56   a lock the car all the time it is a thing I do obsessively.

01:51:59   And if whatever it's worth like the I mean first of all that sucks. Second of all regarding

01:52:04   that like you know having some kind of camera thing. So we we got a couple of like minor

01:52:09   vandalism incidents at our house over the last couple years and fortunately they weren't

01:52:13   they weren't major but they were vandalism and it really angered me. And and you know

01:52:19   The second time it happened,

01:52:21   or the most recent time it happened,

01:52:22   I actually reported it to the local police.

01:52:24   I'm like, this is stupid.

01:52:25   They should at least know about this.

01:52:26   And I didn't think they'd actually do anything.

01:52:28   And they couldn't.

01:52:29   But I asked the officer who came by,

01:52:31   'cause he, you know, it was the middle of the day,

01:52:32   he had nothing to do with suburbs.

01:52:33   And I asked him, I'm like, you know,

01:52:35   do you think there's any, is there any value in me

01:52:37   putting up cameras?

01:52:38   Like if I had the cameras and I had video

01:52:41   of whatever teenager was doing this,

01:52:44   could you actually do anything with that?

01:52:45   Or is it just a waste of time?

01:52:47   And he talked to me for a good 10 minutes.

01:52:48   he basically said, yeah, there's not much they can do.

01:52:51   It's like, even if you get,

01:52:54   even if you know exactly which kid in town did it,

01:52:58   which is not a given,

01:53:00   but even if they knew exactly who did it,

01:53:03   most of the kids who do this kind of stuff are minors,

01:53:05   and it's like, there's not that much they can do

01:53:09   in that case.

01:53:10   You might get your stuff back,

01:53:12   or if the kid vandalizes your house,

01:53:14   you might be able to try to get them to pay for it

01:53:18   removed or cleaned up or whatever, but it's not like, there's not much you can do. And

01:53:23   I was thinking like, once you go down like the security camera route, you kind of have

01:53:28   to become like one of those like paranoid security people.

01:53:31   **Matt Stauffer:** Oh, you have to. You have to because that's

01:53:34   the only way you get into anything. I wouldn't have to. Like the only reason I would do it is,

01:53:38   first of all, as for reporting it, I'm considering doing that too. Not because I expect anything to

01:53:42   happen, just because I want to like affect the crime statistics of my neighborhood to let people

01:53:45   know that, "Hey, this is a thing that I want to be a number on a spreadsheet somewhere

01:53:49   at the end of the year when they tally up, you know, silly petty theft in my town,"

01:53:54   right?

01:53:55   And then the camera would just be, "Just because I'm curious."

01:53:57   Like, basically it's the divide.

01:53:59   Is it kids or is it adults, right?

01:54:00   Because if it's kids, these kids – if it's the same group of kids that's been

01:54:04   doing it over the course of like five years, it spans the time, maybe it's even more

01:54:07   than that.

01:54:08   Like, it can't be the same kids because they would have aged out of it.

01:54:10   Or is it things passed on from kid to kid, like kids just know when you reach a certain

01:54:14   They learned from their older siblings that you go down the neighborhood at 3 a.m.

01:54:17   And check every single car to see if it's open because there might be valuable stuff in there

01:54:20   Or is it adults? I don't know anyway

01:54:24   I would just be doing it to satisfy my curiosity and if it was kid what I would do with that information is tell their

01:54:28   parents

01:54:29   Find them bring this if I knew like oh, I know that kid he's down the block

01:54:33   I would bring the video to the parents said your son in the night

01:54:35   He's stealing crap out of my car by the way giving my iPad back or my iPod back. Yeah, that's worth 50 bucks

01:54:41   Yeah, well it's worth less than that, but it's the principle. Kids, you can get in

01:54:44   trouble with their parents, and hoping that they have parents who would care about this

01:54:48   or whatever. Gonna be ever vigilant. And honestly, seriously, I'm fascinated by the idea that

01:54:55   at such an incredibly frequent interval, people are just trying every single car. Like in

01:55:01   the whole neighborhood. They're not just trying my one house, right? They've got

01:55:04   to be going--

01:55:05   Well, I mean, chances are, I think you probably just got unlucky, that they probably aren't

01:55:09   going through that frequently. I'm guessing this just happened to be the day that you

01:55:14   unlock the car. It's possible this could be going on every night, but I think it's unlikely.

01:55:19   Well, when I talked about it on Slack, other people from, you know, someone from Seattle

01:55:25   and some people from the West Coast were saying this is a thing, that like people go through

01:55:29   neighborhoods and check for open car doors. Like it is a common, low-level, easy way to

01:55:35   get free stuff without actually committing a real crime. You're not actually breaking

01:55:38   anything, you're not actually, you know, so it seems like, I think that is still theft.

01:55:44   I mean, you know what I mean, but it's not like you're breaking the window with a rock

01:55:48   and then stealing the radios out of the car, or you know, like some people have their transmission

01:55:53   gouged out of their car in an attempt to like hotwire it or whatever, like, and even my

01:55:58   brother when he lived in the more downtown areas had his car broken into a few times

01:56:03   where they would actually break things on the car, so I'm, you know, thankful that like,

01:56:08   This is like the most polite thief said, "Oh, the car is locked, move on."

01:56:10   You know, they're like stormtroopers in A New Hope.

01:56:12   Door is locked, move on to the next one.

01:56:13   Not really good at trying to find things because obviously you would just lock the door if

01:56:17   you were hiding there.

01:56:18   Anyway, if they broke my window, I would be super pissed, right?

01:56:23   If they just gently opened the door, they didn't close—they left all the bins open

01:56:28   so I could tell what they had rummaged through, so they didn't even clean up after themselves.

01:56:32   But I don't know.

01:56:33   I'm mostly just curious, like morbidly curious,

01:56:36   like who is doing this?

01:56:38   I mean, it would make me feel better if it was kids,

01:56:41   but on the other hand, I would be like,

01:56:43   all right kid, you need to get in trouble.

01:56:45   - Yeah, but the reality is like,

01:56:47   the kind of kid who would go around doing that,

01:56:49   like chances are, even if you told their parents,

01:56:53   the chances that their parents would A, believe you,

01:56:56   even if you showed them a video,

01:56:57   B, care, and C, not just get pissed at you,

01:57:01   I think are pretty low.

01:57:03   No, I think they're pretty high in the neighborhood I'm in because it doesn't mean that the kids

01:57:07   are doing this have to do it to get money or anything.

01:57:10   It's just like a prank, you know, just like a fun thing to do.

01:57:13   I don't think these kids need that.

01:57:15   And really seriously, if they knew anything about it, they should have looked at this

01:57:18   iPod and thrown it back just like they didn't take the garment.

01:57:20   It's a piece of crap.

01:57:21   It's useless, right?

01:57:22   Seriously, they're going to...

01:57:23   And I think I had upgraded to like the latest supported OS, so it was like incredibly slow.

01:57:27   You're not going to be happy with that thing you just stole.

01:57:29   Trust me.

01:57:30   I should find it back on the hood of my car eventually.

01:57:32   Like, sorry, this is useless.

01:57:34   You can have it back, keep it with your Garmin.

01:57:36   You should actually, you should have like a honeypot,

01:57:39   something like, maybe like have it look just like an iPod touch,

01:57:44   but it's actually like an Android, like, you know,

01:57:45   Nexus 4 or whatever.

01:57:47   And it's like loaded with all sorts of garbage or, oh, you know what?

01:57:51   I got it.

01:57:51   Make it, make it the real iPod touch,

01:57:54   but have it only contain the U2 album.

01:57:57   [music]

01:58:04   I put one of your kindles each day in there.

01:58:06   There you go.

01:58:07   It's like a little bake, you know, each day.

01:58:08   I think they'll leave the Kindle too, they'll be like, "This isn't an iPad.

01:58:11   Look at this, the screen isn't even color.

01:58:13   I can't even touch it.

01:58:14   Forget it."

01:58:15   [beep]

01:58:15   [BEEP]