152: Daddy Didn't Want the Good Graphics Card


00:00:00   I'm sorry, I ruined follow-up.

00:00:05   So I feel like we should start tonight's programming with a tale of woe.

00:00:10   I'll start by saying I bought a computer.

00:00:14   I bought a 5K iMac.

00:00:16   Whoa, okay, so first of all, congratulations.

00:00:20   Well, eh, maybe not.

00:00:21   So, hand on heart, Jon and Marco did not know that this happened.

00:00:25   I've been keeping this a secret from them so I could spring it on the show.

00:00:29   I bought a 5K iMac.

00:00:30   - Is it in your possession yet or did you just order it?

00:00:33   - Oh, it's here.

00:00:34   It's in my trunk.

00:00:36   - You didn't unpack it yet?

00:00:37   - Oh no, I did.

00:00:38   - Uh oh.

00:00:39   - This is my tale of woe.

00:00:40   - Does it fit in your trunk?

00:00:41   You only have three series.

00:00:42   - Oh, stop.

00:00:43   (laughing)

00:00:45   I bought this 5K iMac, I don't know, like a week ago.

00:00:48   And I watched it march across the United States

00:00:50   via FedEx ground, which was infuriating.

00:00:53   I mean, I did it to myself,

00:00:55   'cause I didn't pay for the super fast shipping,

00:00:57   But I'm not a patient man, and it was infuriating watching it march across the US.

00:01:01   But anyway, it arrived yesterday.

00:01:04   And I booted it.

00:01:06   I set it up.

00:01:07   I moved files from my personal computer with my beloved yet very old Circa 2011 Hi-Res

00:01:15   Antigler 15-inch MacBook Pro.

00:01:17   I moved files from my work computer, my retina MacBook Pro, my 15-inch retina MacBook Pro.

00:01:26   I got everything set up, I put all the software I wanted on it, at least at a glance anyway.

00:01:32   Everything seemed okay.

00:01:34   I then performed a software update.

00:01:38   I let the software update go, I walked away from the computer, I came back to the computer,

00:01:42   it seemed like everything had hung after like 20 minutes or something like that, which was

00:01:47   well under the, or well over the time it had estimated to take the software update to run.

00:01:52   There was nothing on the screen, the backlight was on, the computer had not, to my knowledge,

00:01:55   everything was just there. Or I should say nothing was there actually. So I powered the machine off,

00:02:02   which to be clear may have been the fatal mistake. We'll come back to that. I powered the machine off,

00:02:06   I powered it back on. The chime sounds. That's it. The backlight's on, the chime sounds, nothing else.

00:02:14   Okay. Turn the computer back off after having let it sit for a while. Turn it back on. The chime sounds.

00:02:22   sounds and that's it. Hmm this is not good. Okay let's go through the steps. PRAM

00:02:31   reset no good. SMC reset no good. Make a USB boot disk no good. Mash down on the

00:02:38   D key to try to get to diagnostics no good. Recovery no good. Internet recovery

00:02:42   no good. It's in a trunk. I have a Genius Bar appointment tomorrow although I may

00:02:46   just end up returning it and buying a different one because it's already

00:02:48   completely hosed. I have no idea what I did. It might have been me. I'm not saying

00:02:52   it wasn't me. I am not looking for the internet to tell me what it was with respect to the

00:02:57   internet. It will be figured out tomorrow. I have engaged two ex-Apple geniuses. I have

00:03:04   engaged a friend of the show. Nobody could tell me a good answer as to what I could do

00:03:10   to resuscitate it. I think something just genuinely broke.

00:03:14   >>Trevor

00:03:14   During the problem, were there any USB or other devices connected to it that you could

00:03:20   have unplugged, and did you try unplugging them?

00:03:21   Oh yes.

00:03:23   So I had my microphone installed because I was all smug and happy, because the way this

00:03:28   episode was supposed to go was I was supposed to say to you, "Guess what, guys?

00:03:34   I am now talking to you on my 5K iMac."

00:03:38   The way this episode is actually going is, "Guess what, guys?

00:03:42   I actually have to either return or get this thing repaired tomorrow, which is exactly

00:03:47   what I'm going to do.

00:03:48   I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet.

00:03:50   I'm very sad.

00:03:51   I did try target disk mode.

00:03:54   Somebody is asking in the chat, I tried target disk mode.

00:03:56   I have tried everything in my repertoire and everything that two ex-geniuses and a friend

00:04:02   that works at Apple has asked me to try.

00:04:05   None of it has worked.

00:04:07   I'm very sad.

00:04:08   But I will tell you, in the two or three hours that it was working, it was a magnificent

00:04:13   computer, and I cannot wait to hopefully get one that works sometime in the next week.

00:04:20   Yeah, so I'm very sad.

00:04:22   It's a sad, sad day for me.

00:04:23   This is kind of like when my grandfather would complain that modern cars—actually, his

00:04:28   specific complaint was modern car engine bays don't have any place for you to get your

00:04:32   hands down in them, you know?

00:04:34   Like because everything was all packed together really tightly, and then he would complain

00:04:36   about the plastic shrouds covering everything up and complaining about how hard it is to

00:04:40   replace things like air filters and they don't have carburetors anyway.

00:04:43   But the related complaint to your 5k iMac is like back in the days of my most feverish

00:04:50   trying to diagnose problems, one of the things that I would do in this situation, and I almost

00:04:55   suggest it until I realize it's pointless, is to try to figure out what the hell is going

00:04:59   on.

00:05:00   Like you hear the chime, it passes the post-test, right?

00:05:02   And then what happens?

00:05:03   Like, can it not find the disk?

00:05:06   Are you getting into the boot process?

00:05:07   And the way you usually tell that is you could hear

00:05:10   whether it had started accessing the hard drive

00:05:12   and you knew by the series of ticks and sounds,

00:05:14   is it looking for a boot sector?

00:05:16   Is it just cycling disks on and off?

00:05:19   Or is it actually beginning the boot process,

00:05:21   which has a distinctive sound to it?

00:05:23   Or in the old days with the floppy drive,

00:05:24   you could tell what the computer was doing

00:05:25   and at what point things went wrong.

00:05:27   But with an SSD and nothing on the screen

00:05:30   and definitely no indicator lights or anything like that,

00:05:32   you know, hardware indicator lights for the PC folks,

00:05:35   You have no idea what's going on.

00:05:37   They post, there's no image on the screen.

00:05:39   Has it begun the boot process?

00:05:41   Can it not find the hard drive?

00:05:43   If it couldn't find the hard drive,

00:05:44   you'd have the blinking question mark.

00:05:47   But it did pass post,

00:05:48   because I think that the chime only sounds

00:05:50   after it does the whole,

00:05:51   post is power on self-test.

00:05:53   Like the whole, if you have bad RAM or whatever,

00:05:56   you'd get one of the bad chimes or something like that.

00:05:59   So like all my old diagnostic tools

00:06:02   are useless for these computers

00:06:03   that don't make any noise except for the stupid fan.

00:06:05   Is the fan going? There we go. We can ask that. Is the fan turning?

00:06:07   Yes, yes it was. As far as I can tell.

00:06:09   Does it crank up to full speed if you let it sit there?

00:06:11   No it does not. And I actually let it sit overnight

00:06:13   just to be extra specially sure

00:06:15   that that wasn't just me being impatient.

00:06:17   Did you spill water into it?

00:06:19   I did not. Thank you for asking, but I did not.

00:06:21   It's important to establish that.

00:06:23   Where? I mean, are there any openings that face upwards?

00:06:25   Is there one in the back maybe?

00:06:27   No, he can get water in there.

00:06:29   I have faith.

00:06:31   Because there's openings in the bottom here. I'm going to look behind my eyes.

00:06:33   - Oh God, that's funny.

00:06:36   - There are no openings that face upward that I can find.

00:06:38   - There's not, there's not like a slit on the top part?

00:06:40   - I don't see one.

00:06:41   - I didn't think so.

00:06:42   So yeah, so it's sitting in my trunk.

00:06:43   To be honest with you, I'll probably just return it

00:06:46   and probably just order a new one

00:06:47   because I feel like it's already tainted.

00:06:49   - I'm still hoping or thinking or suspecting

00:06:51   like this is actually a software,

00:06:53   like it's not a hardware problem, it's a software problem.

00:06:55   Did you, I know you said you tried a million things,

00:06:57   the only other one that you didn't mention

00:06:58   that I could think of, well, two things I could think of.

00:07:00   One, I'm assuming since you consulted all these experts,

00:07:03   you made sure that they all had the most recent up-to-date knowledge about the keys that you

00:07:07   have to mash because those have changed over the past couple of years and a lot of people

00:07:11   might give you advice to hold down key combinations that are no longer the correct ones for the

00:07:15   same operations.

00:07:16   But assuming that's handled, the only one I didn't hear you mention is verbose booting

00:07:21   mode.

00:07:22   I believe it's command V. You should look it up.

00:07:23   The one that spews, you know, the Unix console text to your screen during the boot process.

00:07:30   That's a good way to find out at what point things go off the rails during the boot process,

00:07:34   assuming the boot process even began.

00:07:36   I did not try that.

00:07:37   However, I did not mention that I also phoned AppleCare at like—

00:07:41   They're not going to help you.

00:07:43   Well, my thought was, let me give them a shot, see what they could figure out.

00:07:48   And I started the conversation slightly—well, mildly passive-aggressively, and I said, "Here's

00:07:53   what I've tried.

00:07:54   PRM reset, SMC reset, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, to try to establish

00:07:57   we really don't need to go through all of this again if you please.

00:08:00   Have you tried blowing the dust out of the plug?

00:08:05   Well if the SMC reset apparently on these Macs is to unplug it, wait 15 seconds and

00:08:10   plug it back in or something along those lines.

00:08:12   In any case, I tried everything I knew how to try, I tried everything that the Apple

00:08:17   Care person told me to do, so in all likelihood I will just return it tomorrow.

00:08:22   I have not yet cancelled my Genius appointment, we will see what happens.

00:08:26   I cannot stress enough, internet, that by the time you hear this episode, this will

00:08:30   already be resolved one way or another.

00:08:33   Well, it'll be in the process of being resolved.

00:08:35   Well, it'll be in the process of being resolved.

00:08:37   Please, internet, I appreciate your feedback, but it is too late by the time you've heard

00:08:42   this.

00:08:43   You can use the fast shipping for the replacement?

00:08:45   If I order a new one, I will absolutely spring for the fast shipping, because now I'm really,

00:08:50   really sad that my—literally, I used the thing—let's see, it was seven o'clock,

00:08:55   was after Declan went to bed that I booted it and started transferring everything, and

00:09:00   at 10 o'clock or thereabouts was when I was calling AppleCare. So I used it for three

00:09:05   hours.

00:09:06   I feel so bad for you for this, because, like—

00:09:08   Well, and let's not forget, this is the first desktop I've bought in easily a decade.

00:09:12   Yeah, and we will definitely interrogate you about why you chose to do this and why you

00:09:16   did it now and et cetera, because I really want to know all these things. But first of

00:09:20   all, I do want to express my sincere condolences, because, like, I hate it. Like, it can't—it's

00:09:25   puts a damper on like, you know, a big purchase of a thing you're really excited about that

00:09:30   you hardly ever get to buy, and all of it, and like it comes and it has some problem

00:09:35   that you have to deal with. Like that sucks. It puts such a damper on the whole thing.

00:09:38   Yeah, it really does. And you know what I thought about, so yesterday obviously I was

00:09:41   much more angry and pissed off than I am now. But yesterday I was thinking about it and

00:09:46   I thought, what if, for the sake of conversation, this was my very first Mac? Like that's a

00:09:53   terrible experience. Now, admittedly, this is definitely a fluke. This is weird. This

00:10:00   is not something that normally happens. To my recollection, in my eight years of owning

00:10:05   Macs, I think that's right, eight-ish years of owning Macs, I have never had a software

00:10:09   update fail. So, to be clear, this is a fluke. It's weird. But, damn if it isn't frustrating.

00:10:18   And oh my goodness, if this was my first Mac,

00:10:21   I would go running back to Dell.

00:10:24   Now, I'm not an idiot, so I'm not going to do that.

00:10:27   - I'm not going crazy here.

00:10:28   - No, I agree, I agree.

00:10:30   But I'm just saying, imagine if your first experience

00:10:33   with this, it was like the $3,000, $3,200 computer.

00:10:38   Imagine your first experience is,

00:10:39   oh, it works for three hours and then it's dead.

00:10:41   - Well, it doesn't really matter.

00:10:43   That experience doesn't really matter

00:10:45   unless it's some kind of epidemic,

00:10:47   which I'm assuming it isn't, right?

00:10:48   But every company has like the DOA things.

00:10:51   All that matters is what happens after.

00:10:53   That's all that, that's what, you know what I mean?

00:10:55   Like for Dell, the reason, speaking of Dell,

00:10:56   the reason a lot of people like Dell

00:10:57   in the enterprise anyway, is that when something happens,

00:11:01   when someone drops their Dell laptop,

00:11:03   when something breaks or whatever,

00:11:04   you can have new hardware in your hands

00:11:07   in a shockingly small amount of time.

00:11:09   And so it's not, you know, things are gonna happen.

00:11:12   You're gonna get, you're gonna buy 50 Dell laptops

00:11:15   and one of them's gonna be DOA.

00:11:17   That's not the thing that annoys you.

00:11:18   It would annoy you, for example,

00:11:20   if you were going through Apple,

00:11:21   if you had to wait a week to get the new one.

00:11:22   It doesn't annoy you if the next morning

00:11:24   when you come into work,

00:11:25   somebody from Dell is there with a box and says,

00:11:27   "Give me your old one, here's your new one later."

00:11:29   And you're like, "Oh, that was easy."

00:11:30   And so for Apple, the thing that counts is

00:11:34   how good was your Apple Care phone experience,

00:11:36   which in my experience is not that great.

00:11:38   How, when you go to the Genius Bar,

00:11:39   how is that experience going to be?

00:11:41   And how much fuss do they give you?

00:11:44   How sympathetic are they?

00:11:45   This matters too.

00:11:46   pathetic as the person to your frustration about getting a DOA computer, which is basically

00:11:51   how it's categorized this, because assuming this is a hardware thing, it's not like

00:11:53   the software update broke it, it's just, you know, if it's a hardware problem, this

00:11:57   machine was just DOA, and it's best to find this out now, right? It's all about how

00:12:01   it's handled after the fact. And my one—I have two Apple stories about this, I think

00:12:05   I told the other one on a past podcast, but when I got my SC30, the power supply made

00:12:10   a high-pitched noise that only people under 30 could hear.

00:12:12   I do remember this.

00:12:13   Yeah, and that was my most disappointing one because I was a kid.

00:12:18   And when you're a kid, or like when you're a kid at heart like Casey, you get your hopes

00:12:21   all from this exciting new shiny computer and it comes and you're sad.

00:12:25   Right, so that was the most crushing one.

00:12:27   And the other one, which I may have mentioned in the past, is when, this was the Pizzabock

00:12:31   PowerPC Performer actually, Performer 61 something CD.

00:12:38   that for Christmas and, or it was a family computer but whatever it's mine, and the terrible

00:12:46   gross PC sourced 15 inch multi sync Apple monitor that came with it was DOA, like the

00:12:53   monitor just didn't work, you plugged it in, nothing happened, no lights came on the screen,

00:12:57   so I got that on Christmas day, and I was older so I wasn't totally, you know, devastated,

00:13:02   I didn't have any other monitors that could fit it because of the differences in the connectors,

00:13:06   was a multi sync monitor, it's basically a PC monitor connector, but with a slight difference,

00:13:10   and anyway all my other ones wouldn't work with it. So you get something on Christmas

00:13:14   and you can't use it on Christmas, you're sad too. Apple had a new monitor on our front

00:13:19   doorstep the morning after Christmas. That's pretty impressive. Yeah, so not only did they

00:13:25   not wait for us to ship it back, or you know, ship it to us and get it a few days later,

00:13:30   it was like, you're sad on Christmas Day, you go to sleep, you wake up the next morning,

00:13:33   monitors on your doorstep. And so that was pretty amazing.

00:13:36   Yeah, I'm curious to see how this works out, but you're absolutely right that it's all

00:13:43   about how sympathetic people are and how people react to it, and I think it'll be fine, it'll

00:13:51   all work itself out, but man, what a bummer. What a serious bummer.

00:13:56   And how much hassle it is. Like, do you have to convince anyone of anything? Is there a

00:14:00   a lot of paperwork to fill out,

00:14:02   how long does it take for you to have the situation

00:14:05   remedied to your satisfaction?

00:14:07   Like, it can make a big difference.

00:14:08   Even if like you got it fixed the next day,

00:14:11   but to do that you had to like argue with someone

00:14:13   on the phone, that's a terrible experience.

00:14:14   But if you go through it and someone is sympathetic

00:14:17   and just, you know, it seems like bump, bump, bump,

00:14:20   oh, that's it, yep, that's it,

00:14:21   you'll have a new computer on day X.

00:14:23   You're like, oh, that was easy.

00:14:24   And you come away from that experience

00:14:26   if everything has gone well,

00:14:28   actually liking the brand more than you would have

00:14:30   if you had just gotten the thing and it worked out of the box.

00:14:32   Yeah, yeah, totally.

00:14:33   The perverse way that human nature works.

00:14:35   The worst one though, the one you can't recover from, luckily we're all out of this phase,

00:14:40   is like when I got my obscenely expensive Apple 22 inch LCD monitor and had dead pixels

00:14:46   on it.

00:14:47   And I tried not to look for them, but I could see them.

00:14:50   And there's nothing you can do about that because I knew going in what the policy was.

00:14:53   The policy is if there's an X number of pixels and they're this far apart or whatever, sorry,

00:14:56   luck of the draw, you got unlucky.

00:14:58   And I guess I suppose I could have returned it and tried again and returned it and tried

00:15:03   again and returned it and tried again, but I was just not up for that.

00:15:06   You know, yesterday I was really upset.

00:15:09   Not even just angry.

00:15:10   I was genuinely upset.

00:15:12   But today, with a little bit of clarity now, I can see that this is like the most first

00:15:18   world of first world problems.

00:15:19   The most shiny new computer didn't work immediately.

00:15:22   Oh well, like get over yourself.

00:15:24   But man, it did bum me out a little bit.

00:15:27   You paid good money for that thing.

00:15:28   you know, don't diminish this.

00:15:30   - Yeah, so hopefully it'll rectify itself.

00:15:33   We don't need to talk about this anymore.

00:15:35   If you guys don't have anything to say,

00:15:37   we can move on to follow up,

00:15:38   but if you have any other questions,

00:15:39   I'm happy to field them.

00:15:40   - I have so many questions, but first,

00:15:41   (laughing)

00:15:42   we have to do a sponsor review.

00:15:44   - Fair enough.

00:15:45   - And first, a quick correction.

00:15:46   A couple weeks ago, I did a read for Casper,

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00:18:00   One of my questions was about, I know you're not going to mess with it yourself, but RAM

00:18:05   that wiggles loose as the thing took its bumpy little journey across the entire country?

00:18:10   It's funny you say that.

00:18:11   I reseated the RAM just to be safe, no difference.

00:18:13   Ah, see I would have said the safe thing is to not try to do that because, I don't know,

00:18:19   Like you just got your feet on the carpet and like, I don't know.

00:18:22   I would be like, look, I just can't, I haven't touched the thing that came out of the box.

00:18:26   I've been using it like you use a computer by pressing buttons on the keyboard and mouse

00:18:29   or trackpad and now it's fried.

00:18:31   Like, oh, you opened it up.

00:18:32   Well, but you're supposed to be able to open it up.

00:18:35   So I just, I'm always paranoid with Apple, so I would not have even tried that.

00:18:37   I would have just brought it in instead of the RAMs unseated.

00:18:39   It's not my problem.

00:18:41   I didn't touch it.

00:18:42   Fair point.

00:18:43   And actually that brings up a really interesting point.

00:18:45   Let me tell you how I know I'm old.

00:18:47   I was extremely, and remain actually, extremely skeptical that me doing like Command-R for

00:18:55   recovery, I believe that's right, I was looking at the documents when I was doing these keystrokes,

00:19:00   so if I get them wrong now I apologize, but like Command-R, Option-Command-R, whatever

00:19:03   it is for internet recovery, and D for diagnostics, all these things that I was mashing, I initially

00:19:08   was doing that on the new Bluetooth keyboard that came with it, which by the way I like

00:19:12   quite a bit.

00:19:13   I really liked it a lot a lot.

00:19:15   This is the new like semi-skinny one right? That's correct, but anyway, so I'm doing all of this and

00:19:20   I'm doing it on a Bluetooth keyboard and

00:19:23   The old man in me is so damn skeptical that this keyboard is even

00:19:29   Connected to the computer that I first plugged it in with the lightning cable then I decided no

00:19:36   I'm not even convinced that's good enough, and I have a hundred and one key Apple keyboard that I got from God knows where that's USB

00:19:43   I plugged that in and did all these keystrokes again just to be safe, but it weirded me out

00:19:50   to be relying on wireless devices in order to try to kick off these extremely low-level

00:19:55   like boot sequences.

00:19:56   I don't know, just that's me being old and weird I suppose.

00:20:01   Anyway, any other questions or should we do some follow-up?

00:20:03   Why'd you get this computer?

00:20:05   Right, so I knew it was time to get a different computer.

00:20:09   I hadn't bought a computer since my—I already mentioned 2011 Hi-Res Antigler MacBook Pro.

00:20:18   That thing sits on my desk constantly.

00:20:20   That's all it does, is sit on the desk.

00:20:23   And even though I've been a laptop guy for easily a decade and change—in fact, I think

00:20:28   I made the switch during school, so somewhere in the early 2000s was when I really became

00:20:32   a laptop kind of guy.

00:20:34   And I thought to myself, I will have a work laptop, as we discussed quite a bit several

00:20:41   episodes back.

00:20:42   I'll have a work laptop.

00:20:43   And it occurred to me just yesterday that I have my high-res anti-glare MacBook Pro

00:20:49   that I could put an SSD in, like we were just talking about.

00:20:52   So I will still have a laptop, and even in a real pinch, I can take Aaron's scuba diving

00:20:59   MacBook Air and use that if I really wanted to use a laptop.

00:21:04   Beyond that, as I've also talked about on the show, Erin got me a brand new iPad Mini

00:21:10   for Christmas.

00:21:12   And for a lot of things, especially when mated to a Bluetooth keyboard, that's probably sufficient.

00:21:17   So say I wanted to write a blog post downstairs while I'm sitting next to Erin on the couch,

00:21:22   I could use my iPad, I could use her laptop, I could use my old laptop, I could use my

00:21:26   work laptop.

00:21:27   So if I have like 84 portable devices rolling around the house, do I really need another?

00:21:32   But I have a couple of things that I really want running all the time, like Plex, for

00:21:36   example.

00:21:37   Why not have that running on a desktop rather than running on my laptop?

00:21:43   And so it seems to me like I'm running out of good reasons to have a laptop.

00:21:50   And so if I'm gonna get a desktop, and damned if I don't lust after these Apple Cinema displays

00:21:56   that are all over the place, the client that I'm working at, which we've talked about in

00:21:59   the past. Why not just bite the bullet and get a damn iMac? And that's what I did. And

00:22:04   I tell you what, it's weird only having one monitor because at home, not right now actually,

00:22:09   because I put it away, but at home I typically have two monitors. At work, I always have

00:22:13   two monitors. It's weird only having one monitor.

00:22:16   >> Steve - He knows you can have two. Don't email him.

00:22:18   >> John - Yeah, I know you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh my God. Thank you. I know you can

00:22:21   have two. But when it's a 27-inch screen, you really don't need it. It's really okay.

00:22:28   "Oh my god, is that screen beautiful?"

00:22:30   Did you guys know that that screen is really pretty?

00:22:33   I feel like we should have talked about this

00:22:34   in the past or something.

00:22:35   - Well, Marco has the worst one,

00:22:37   but I have the same one as you, so.

00:22:38   (laughter)

00:22:40   - You know, if only somebody would have told you

00:22:43   about a month ago about all the benefits of desktops.

00:22:45   - Yes, yes, yes.

00:22:46   So eventually I thought, you know,

00:22:48   so all kidding aside, I thought,

00:22:49   "You know, let me just try this desktop thing,"

00:22:51   'cause you know what?

00:22:52   It's a lot of, no question, full stop.

00:22:55   It's a lot of money.

00:22:57   What I got was, I don't know, I apologize if I said this already, but I got a middle-of-the-road

00:23:00   one.

00:23:01   I got it with 8 gigs of RAM because I was planning on putting some aftermarket RAM in

00:23:05   it.

00:23:06   Did you get the good CPU?

00:23:07   I got the 4 gigahertz CPU.

00:23:09   Yes.

00:23:10   And I got the 1 terabyte SSD.

00:23:14   So basically, a fairly loaded, middle-of-the-road 5K iMac because I didn't see the need for

00:23:21   a really fancy graphics card because I don't ever play games.

00:23:25   So I loved the machine for the three hours I got

00:23:30   to use it before it died.

00:23:32   And I'm really looking forward to sticking with it.

00:23:34   I really think this is probably gonna be

00:23:36   the right answer for me.

00:23:38   Asked me again in a few months, obviously,

00:23:39   and I say that both sarcastically and seriously

00:23:42   because I'm curious to see if I miss it.

00:23:43   - If it works yet?

00:23:44   - Yeah, if it works.

00:23:46   But I'm really thinking that this was probably

00:23:50   the right answer, especially if I start doing

00:23:52   a little more iOS development,

00:23:53   which I'm hoping to be doing soon,

00:23:56   that's a pretty good way to do it.

00:23:57   And I will say that after having used

00:24:01   this 27-inch 5K iMac for two and a half to three hours,

00:24:05   as I was going to troubleshoot,

00:24:08   I got out my work 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro,

00:24:12   and hand on heart, the first thing I thought to myself was,

00:24:15   "Holy God, this screen is tiny."

00:24:18   And I had never thought that about a 15-inch laptop

00:24:21   before in my life.

00:24:24   - Yeah, so two things you and I ruined on.

00:24:26   First of all, the screen quality of the 5K

00:24:29   is still way better, even the one I have

00:24:33   that has the worst color gamut than yours.

00:24:36   The screen on the 5K is way better than the screen

00:24:39   on any of the laptops, including the newest 15s.

00:24:42   We'll see if that changes when they go to Skylake

00:24:44   in a few months or whatever, but as of today,

00:24:48   the iMac screen is by far the nicest screen

00:24:51   that Apple sells.

00:24:52   Maybe the iPad Pro, I haven't looked too much at it, but--

00:24:54   - I thought the iPad Mini was actually

00:24:56   the best of the portables.

00:24:57   - I mean, maybe, you know, for certain metrics,

00:24:59   I know the tests you're talking about,

00:25:01   but among Macs, I think the 5K iMac is just far and away,

00:25:06   far ahead of the other ones,

00:25:07   because just everything about it,

00:25:09   like the color, the contrast, the pixel density,

00:25:13   I don't know, a bunch of stuff I don't understand,

00:25:15   it just looks great,

00:25:16   and once you're accustomed to looking at a 5K,

00:25:19   when you look at a Retina MacBook Pro,

00:25:21   you can tell the Retina MacBook Pro screen

00:25:24   almost seems blurry by comparison.

00:25:25   It is a very different look,

00:25:28   and it looks fantastic on the 5K.

00:25:30   So first of all, you are now ruined.

00:25:32   So yes, you can plug in additional monitors to it,

00:25:36   but you won't want to,

00:25:37   because anything else you plug into it

00:25:39   will look like garbage.

00:25:40   And Apple is not yet shipping

00:25:42   a standalone version of this monitor.

00:25:44   I hope they do in the future,

00:25:45   for people who do want multi-monitor,

00:25:46   or who don't have a 5K but have a laptop or something.

00:25:50   But for now, this is the best screen Apple sells

00:25:53   and the only way you can get it is inside a 5K iMac

00:25:55   and nothing else matches it.

00:25:58   And even having a laptop next to it is just no contest.

00:26:01   So A, you're ruined on screen quality

00:26:03   and B, you're definitely ruined on screen size.

00:26:05   And this is how I feel, how I felt for years

00:26:08   ever since I got a giant monitor like this.

00:26:10   I can do work on my 15 inch MacBook Pro

00:26:13   and I have and I need to usually a few times a year.

00:26:16   I need to do something really heavy on the MacBook Pro,

00:26:18   I'm glad I have it.

00:26:19   But every time I do work on the MacBook,

00:26:22   or I'm tempted to work on the MacBook Pro,

00:26:23   and I can work on the desktop,

00:26:25   like either it's just on the other side of the house,

00:26:29   or I'll be back home in a couple days and I can do it then,

00:26:32   I will just put off work until I can do it on the big screen

00:26:35   because I know that I will be way happier

00:26:38   and more productive doing it on the big screen.

00:26:40   So you will probably follow a similar path

00:26:44   you'll be like, "Well, I could work on this laptop, but the screen is so cramped.

00:26:50   I might as well just wait until I can go upstairs and do it on the iMac."

00:26:53   Yeah, yeah, we'll see.

00:26:55   I am genuinely a little—I'm going to use the word "worried" because I can't think

00:26:59   of a better word—but I'm a little worried about what this means for my home life and

00:27:05   for my relationship with Aaron.

00:27:06   Because I don't often sit with a laptop downstairs next to Aaron, but I wouldn't

00:27:11   say it's uncommon either.

00:27:13   And now, if I want to use my computer, I'm going to have to be upstairs in one of our

00:27:18   bedrooms, which is my in-home office.

00:27:21   And that's where I'm sitting right now to record.

00:27:23   And so, I don't want to ignore Aaron on a regular basis, just because I want to be upstairs

00:27:29   on my fancy new iMac.

00:27:30   But we'll see what happens.

00:27:32   I mean, if that's the most of my problems, I'm in pretty damn good shape, aren't I?

00:27:35   So we'll see.

00:27:36   But I don't mean this to be snarky.

00:27:38   I mean, genuinely.

00:27:39   And in the two and a half, three hours I used the thing.

00:27:43   I really, really, really loved it.

00:27:45   I really did.

00:27:46   And admittedly, some of that was like, ooh, shiny.

00:27:49   But it was fast.

00:27:51   It worked well.

00:27:53   I was transferring things from both laptops to the iMac.

00:27:57   God knows what's going to happen with that data if I

00:27:59   return it.

00:28:00   But anyway, I was transferring stuff to the iMac at

00:28:04   ridiculous speeds.

00:28:05   I was doing like 18 things at once.

00:28:07   I'm a really heavy user of, what is it, Spaces, the multiple virtual screens.

00:28:11   I know it's all wrapped into mission control now, but I barely use them on this iMac because,

00:28:17   God help me, I have like 10 different windows open at once.

00:28:21   Shut up, John.

00:28:22   I had like 10 different windows open at once, which is like eight more than I usually have.

00:28:27   I don't know, maybe I just have a simple mind.

00:28:29   I think you're not the only one with Spaces.

00:28:31   I see with all these youngsters at work who, like, we have many more Macs at work now and

00:28:35   have many more youngsters at work. And it's very easy to get multiple monitors at work.

00:28:40   So the main, like the way young people, I'm generalizing, the way of young people I see

00:28:48   at my work, kids these days, right? Exactly, use their max is they have multiple monitors,

00:28:54   they like lots of monitors, like the more the better. One guy had like six, it was ridiculous.

00:28:58   And they full screen everything and they attempt to use spaces and mission control

00:29:05   to cycle through things. Like I'll be sitting there and watching somebody do something at their

00:29:09   they'll be demonstrating something and they'll have they'll have a text editor full screen on one

00:29:13   17 inch monitor and another text editor or web browser full screen another 17 inch monitor and

00:29:18   sometimes it'd be like well go to this web page go to the source file go to this go to that go to

00:29:22   that terminal window all these things would fit in like one 17 inch screen if the person like used

00:29:27   windows the way they're supposed to be done because really the terminal a terminal filling an entire

00:29:32   letterbox format 17 inch screen is ridiculous, right?

00:29:36   But instead it's like, where's that window again?

00:29:38   Where's that window?

00:29:39   Lots of gestures and keyboard combinations to, you know,

00:29:42   go through spaces with the control arrow keys

00:29:44   and gestures to swipe from one to the other

00:29:45   to try to make the thing they're looking for

00:29:48   appear on one of the two screens.

00:29:50   And they can't see what's in front of behind.

00:29:52   They just have to like,

00:29:53   and they don't seem to have an awareness.

00:29:54   There's no like, like it used to be where spaces were 2D

00:29:57   instead of just like a 1D strip.

00:29:59   Remember the 2D spaces things

00:30:00   where you go up, down, left, and right.

00:30:01   then at least I'd have a fighting chance. Instead, what I see is two screens that I

00:30:05   see hands moving furiously and I see two screens blink blink blink blink blink blink blink.

00:30:09   Oh, I found it. There it is. And then we'll go back to the other thing. OK. Blink blink

00:30:13   blink, blink, blink, blink, blink. Oh, I found it. This is this does not seem efficient.

00:30:20   So yeah. Anyway, people like we should we should know this from from Windows. Windows

00:30:25   taught us that people like to maximize everything. And the Mac users like well Mac users don't

00:30:29   maximize everything. Well guess what? Now that Macs are more common, the people who

00:30:33   maximize everything have Macs and they try to work the same way. So don't do that, Casey.

00:30:37   It's a waste of your screen space.

00:30:39   I don't typically maximize everything, but what I typically do is have spaces kind of

00:30:45   orient like things. So as an example, probably the best example is I have one space that

00:30:52   has my work IM, the relay Slack, and iMessages in three tiles on that space that take up

00:31:00   the whole screen.

00:31:01   So the left half of the screen is work IM, this is on my work computer of course.

00:31:06   The left half of the screen is work IM, and then the right half of the screen is split

00:31:09   in half.

00:31:10   So the top half is relay Slack, and the bottom half is iMessages.

00:31:15   And that's actually what's going on right now.

00:31:17   So that's just a simple example.

00:31:19   I like spaces, it's not for everyone, but like I said, when I was using the Saimak,

00:31:24   I found that I could just tile damn near everything on the one space, which is a weird thing for

00:31:30   me.

00:31:31   But my love of spaces is also the reason that I feel like I can't use any other mouse other

00:31:36   than the Magic Mouse, because I am addicted to the two-finger swipe.

00:31:40   I understand that Mike's beloved MX Revolution or whatever it is has configurations in which

00:31:45   you can swap spaces with buttons and whatnot. But for me, I've always used the Magic Mouse

00:31:51   and I love it.

00:31:52   Plus, that mouse crippled him, so.

00:31:53   And that mouse also crippled him, so there's that too.

00:31:55   Minor details.

00:31:56   Right, no big deal, right? So anyway, so yeah, in my brief usage, and again, I know I sound

00:32:02   snarky, but I'm not trying to be. In my very brief usage of this machine, I actually really,

00:32:06   really, really liked it. And if I return it tomorrow, if I get it repaired tomorrow one

00:32:11   way or the other, I am looking forward to having some honest-to-goodness time with it.

00:32:16   But it was fast, it was nice, it was pretty, the screen was beautiful, I really enjoy the

00:32:23   new peripherals.

00:32:25   The new Magic Mouse seemed roughly the same to me, I couldn't tell any major differences.

00:32:30   Like I understand what the differences are, but just from feel and whatnot, I couldn't

00:32:34   really tell the differences.

00:32:36   The new keyboard though, I really, really liked a lot.

00:32:38   I feel like every single Apple keyboard in the house, I have the 2011 MacBook Pro, I

00:32:43   have the 2015 MacBook Pro, I have the 101-key keyboard, I have a four-battery Bluetooth

00:32:52   keyboard, I have Aaron's MacBook Air.

00:32:55   Every single one of those keyboards, I swear to you, feels just a little bit different.

00:32:58   But I really liked the new Bluetooth one.

00:33:02   What is it, the Magic Keyboard or something?

00:33:04   I always get the names wrong.

00:33:05   Anyway, whatever the brand new one is.

00:33:07   I really liked it a lot.

00:33:08   So the hardware, excepting the fact that it died, was wonderful.

00:33:15   And I, you know, to a quick personal anecdote, my office is a disaster.

00:33:21   The one in my house is a disaster.

00:33:22   You could barely see the carpet and there was like a path between the door and the chair

00:33:26   and that was about it.

00:33:28   And in preparation for this thing, as it was marching across the country, I finally did

00:33:32   what Aaron has been begging me to do for like two years now, and I cleaned up my office

00:33:37   And my desk was all clean.

00:33:38   I have a glass desk because I've had it for forever, but I guess I'm that kind of a loser.

00:33:43   And so I have this glass desk, it was all cleaned off.

00:33:45   I moved my mic from one side of the desk to the other, which if you're a podcaster, is

00:33:49   like a really big deal.

00:33:50   And I was all ready to go, and it was going to be great.

00:33:54   And now it's in my trunk to get repaired or returned tomorrow.

00:33:58   That sucks.

00:33:59   Yeah, I'm very sad.

00:34:01   I really do feel so bad for you because I just,

00:34:05   as I said earlier, the idea of having thought about it

00:34:09   and saved up and then finally ordered and tracked

00:34:11   and received this thing only to have it then just be broken,

00:34:14   it's such a damper on what should be the exciting time

00:34:18   that you finally got.

00:34:20   You paid for it, you waited patiently, you got it.

00:34:23   - Like I said, as silly as it is,

00:34:25   one of the things I was most excited for

00:34:27   was to say to the two of you, guess what?

00:34:30   - Right.

00:34:31   of my new iMac. Like I said, when I was doing all of this installation, I already had my

00:34:36   mic connected because there's no reason not to. And then, never mind. Sad times. So anyway,

00:34:43   we've talked about this far too long. We should probably do some follow-up, especially since

00:34:47   we have a fair bit of it. But I appreciate you indulging me, and next week we will have

00:34:52   some amount of follow-up. Either I returned it, or maybe I got it repaired. We'll see

00:34:57   what happens but we'll follow back up next week.

00:35:00   Before you move on, do you want to preemptively apologize to Declan for his bad Minecraft 2.3 frame rates?

00:35:07   [laughter]

00:35:09   Well, given that he's, what, 14 and a half months now, I'm not too worried about that.

00:35:14   I said Minecraft 2.3. By the time he reaches Minecraft age, you'll still have that computer,

00:35:18   he'll be using it, and the new version of Minecraft will probably not get great frame rates,

00:35:22   and he'll ask why, and then you'll have to explain to him, "Daddy didn't want the good graphics card."

00:35:27   Do you really think the good graphics card would make a difference when he's playing a game on a seven-year-old computer?

00:35:32   I think it will because Minecraft is like I assume there will be no Minecraft 2, but who knows at that point in his life

00:35:38   but minecraft does can be surprisingly demanding if you crank everything up to max on my

00:35:44   5k iMac which has the best video card that you can get in that particular machine

00:35:48   You can make it chug occasionally like it can happen

00:35:51   You know obviously he's not gonna have the graphics settings max

00:35:54   But I think even at standard graphics settings with a reasonable draw distance, by the time

00:36:00   he is of age and Minecraft has evolved to have slightly fancier graphics perhaps, it's

00:36:04   not going to get great frame rates.

00:36:07   And someone's going to have to answer for that.

00:36:09   And I guess I'll explain it to him if you don't want to.

00:36:11   Because it's not like you're going to get rid of that beautiful screen.

00:36:13   Like you're going to use that thing for as like it'll be a viable computer for a really

00:36:17   long time, except maybe for Minecraft.

00:36:19   Okay, first of all, I need to teach you guys about selling computers while they're still

00:36:23   worth something.

00:36:24   Second of all, I love, Jon, that you assume there might not be a Minecraft 2.

00:36:31   I know, Microsoft bought them, I understand.

00:36:34   It's a billion dollar business.

00:36:36   There will definitely be a Minecraft 2.

00:36:38   It might not be good, and it might not be for a while, but there will definitely be

00:36:42   a Minecraft 2.

00:36:43   Well, it's already on the App Store, did you see it?

00:36:46   Yeah.

00:36:47   Alright, no, I mean, put it this way.

00:36:49   If Notch still owned it, I mean, there should have already been a Minecraft 2 and 3, but

00:36:53   wasn't because the company and the person who owned it just continued to revise the

00:36:57   program and continued to sell the original program.

00:37:01   Now that Microsoft owns it, you're right, there will surely be a Minecraft 2 at some

00:37:05   point, but I'm not quite sure when that will be.

00:37:08   It could be borderline.

00:37:10   I don't know what kind of priority it is for them to get their Minecraft 2 out versus just

00:37:16   revising and continuing to sell Minecraft on every single new platform.

00:37:19   Because they are selling the same game over and over again.

00:37:21   They'll sell it on PS4, they'll sell it, well, you know, less so now, but they'll sell it

00:37:24   on Xbox One, they'll sell it on the PC version, they'll probably sell a Windows Phone version,

00:37:29   you know, they'll sell, they keep selling the iOS version.

00:37:33   So I don't know if there, there is a burning need to make Minecraft 2 before Declan reaches

00:37:38   that age, but we'll see.

00:37:39   We are sponsored this week by Blue Apron, helping you cook better at home.

00:37:43   Go to BlueApron.com/ATP to get your first two meals for free.

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00:39:00   Blue Apron, a better way to cook.

00:39:02   I am still thinking about that Thai soup

00:39:03   they had like two months ago.

00:39:04   Man, that was good.

00:39:05   - Yeah, you know, it's funny you bring that up.

00:39:07   So as part of Blue Apron sponsoring us,

00:39:09   they gave us a few weeks of free meals.

00:39:11   And I have been wanting to try Blue Apron

00:39:14   for the longest time.

00:39:15   It took us all of one week for Aaron and I to look at each other and say, "This might

00:39:18   be worth it, because this is really, really, really good."

00:39:22   And tonight we had Korean—and I'm going to butcher this—Korean T'yak and spicy

00:39:26   pork ragu.

00:39:28   And this was one of those things that it's not totally out of our comfort zone, but not

00:39:32   in our comfort zone, if that makes sense.

00:39:35   And oh man, was it really good.

00:39:37   And last week was our first week.

00:39:39   We had a few different things and they were all good.

00:39:41   No, I'm really loving Blue Apron so far,

00:39:44   and I think it's a pretty much done deal

00:39:47   that Aaron and I are gonna end up signing up

00:39:49   and actually using our own money to pay for it,

00:39:51   'cause it's awesome.

00:39:52   - Casey, we had the same dinner today.

00:39:54   - Oh, did we?

00:39:55   Oh, that's delightful.

00:39:55   - I had the exact same thing.

00:39:56   I had the exact same Blue Apron meal, yeah.

00:39:59   - Did you like it?

00:39:59   - I did.

00:40:00   It was one of my favorite ones that I've had so far.

00:40:02   - Yeah, same here.

00:40:03   It was one of those things where we were both like,

00:40:05   "Yeah, we'll try it.

00:40:06   "We'll see how it goes."

00:40:07   And then Aaron and I looked at each other

00:40:08   after having had a few bites,

00:40:09   We were like, "Wow, is this good!

00:40:12   We didn't expect it!"

00:40:13   Yeah, I found that I've not been able to predict ahead of time which ones I'm going to like

00:40:17   and which ones I'm not going to, mostly because they're so varied that you really have no

00:40:25   baseline to say, "Well, I like that.

00:40:27   I don't know.

00:40:28   I've never had anything like that before."

00:40:30   The other thing—this is getting out of the Ed

00:40:36   Read, but into Blue Apron hacks.

00:40:37   I don't know if this is a thing that people do.

00:40:38   So say you sign up for Blue Apron and you do it for a while, and it's interesting.

00:40:39   reasons I think you should do it even if you just do it for a short time is just to see

00:40:43   it try a bunch of different new foods or whatever and they give you like they give you the ingredients

00:40:47   and they also give you like oh it's always one page marker would know like a one page

00:40:51   thing on how to cook it. I've never seen it be more than one page it's always been it's

00:40:55   always one sheet of paper with about eight steps in the back. Right and it has the ingredients

00:40:59   on the other side right? Well the front of it has like a big picture and then it lists

00:41:02   the ingredients and then the back of it has like like a two column grid of instructions

00:41:06   with photos at each step.

00:41:08   - Right, so when you're done with Blue Apron,

00:41:09   say you decide not to pay for it anymore,

00:41:11   you still have all those recipes.

00:41:13   So if you liked one of them, in theory,

00:41:15   you could go and make it yourself.

00:41:16   Go buy the ingredients yourself.

00:41:17   I mean, you're not gonna get the perfect little portions

00:41:19   that Blue Apron gave you,

00:41:20   so you'll have to adjust the amounts

00:41:21   and maybe you'll have leftovers

00:41:22   and maybe you will have that rotting herbs

00:41:24   in the refrigerator.

00:41:27   But you can make these again yourself.

00:41:29   Like, there's no reason.

00:41:30   Like, if you find one that's a super favorite,

00:41:32   just add it to your collection of things

00:41:33   that you regularly make for yourself.

00:41:35   - Yeah, we've been with Blue Aprons for, I don't know,

00:41:37   maybe six months now?

00:41:39   Long before they were a sponsor, we've been using them.

00:41:41   And we've been doing that since the start.

00:41:43   We've collected all the recipes we like,

00:41:45   we just have this giant stack of them

00:41:47   accumulating on our bookshelf.

00:41:48   - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah.

00:41:49   And the problem I had though, I wanted to make the awesome,

00:41:52   I think it's like chicken kasoule or something, I'm sorry,

00:41:54   I forgot exactly what the name of it is,

00:41:57   but it's this awesome chicken Thai soup.

00:41:59   And I tried to go buy the ingredients for it last week,

00:42:01   and just like, my store had almost none of them.

00:42:05   But yeah, we've been using it a long time,

00:42:08   and that should tell you all you need to know.

00:42:09   I mean, we keep using it.

00:42:10   What I like about it, this is way too long

00:42:12   for a sponsor, Reid, but sorry.

00:42:13   What I like about it is that the reason we did it

00:42:16   was that we don't like to have to think about

00:42:19   what are we making this week,

00:42:20   and then plan a huge version of this.

00:42:22   We lasted two weeks trying to do that,

00:42:24   and every six months we would try to do that again,

00:42:26   and we would just fail so soon afterwards.

00:42:28   They'd take all the decision-making out of it for you,

00:42:31   which is really nice when you just don't wanna have

00:42:34   make all of these decisions about what are we having every single night, you know? So

00:42:38   it's really nice for that.

00:42:39   So, the chat room says the recipes are actually available online for free. Blueapron.com/cookbook.

00:42:45   And also their logo looks like Totoro. So there you go. What more could you ask for?

00:42:48   All right. So…

00:42:49   All right. So we should do some follow-up. And we have a fair bit, so let's buckle

00:42:54   up kids. Let's start with—we talked about Plex a little bit last episode in—or maybe

00:42:59   it was the episode before, but regardless, we got a lot of people writing in to ask,

00:43:03   Have you tried Infuse for the Apple TV?

00:43:06   And we'll have a link in the show notes.

00:43:08   The idea with Infuse is that it's somewhat Plex-like in

00:43:11   that it will auto discover metadata about your media

00:43:16   collection.

00:43:17   So it'll show you your list of movies with movie posters and

00:43:21   things of that nature.

00:43:23   But the real kick and the party trick that Infuse has,

00:43:28   from what I've gathered, is that it will actually do the

00:43:31   transcoding on your device.

00:43:33   So really, there's no reason that you couldn't just sit a

00:43:38   bunch of files on an underpowered Synology and let

00:43:44   Infuse just look at it and then do the transcoding right

00:43:47   on the Apple TV.

00:43:48   That is excellent, and it sounds great.

00:43:50   I haven't tried it yet, but it does sound good.

00:43:52   The problem I have with this, though, is that it doesn't

00:43:53   solve a couple of the other problems that Plex does fix,

00:43:59   which is, number one, it doesn't give you external access to your media. So one of the

00:44:03   greatest pieces of Plex is that you can get to your media from outside of your home if

00:44:08   you set it up properly. And secondly, you can't share other people's libraries. So like

00:44:14   Marco and John and I, we have all shared our libraries with each other so that Marco, for

00:44:19   example, could stream one of the movies that I have—

00:44:22   John: Been doing it all week.

00:44:23   [laughs]

00:44:24   Steven: —from my house to his house.

00:44:25   John; We've been watching through your top gear.

00:44:27   Well, right, and the reason that it hasn't worked for the last 24 hours is because I

00:44:30   moved all my Plex stuff to the iMac that's now in my trunk. But anyway, so yeah, so it

00:44:36   doesn't do that. It doesn't do external access and doesn't do sharing.

00:44:38   Yeah, I tried Infuse as soon as people suggested it, because I'll jump on top of anything.

00:44:41   Like, as soon as we talked about it, I don't know, it was like many, many shows ago. Like,

00:44:44   oh great, Infuse, I immediately bought the $10, like, pro version or whatever. Yes, sure,

00:44:49   come right on, I'll give it a try, sight unseen, you know, because I got two recommendations

00:44:52   from it from random strangers. But the whole reason the whole reason I wanted it, I'm trying

00:44:58   to support the app economy, the whole reason I wanted it was to... You're the one. I had this

00:45:02   file that I was trying to play that I had to eventually end up using my... This is one that

00:45:08   I had to use my iMac as the Plex server for because the iMac has no problem transcoding it.

00:45:11   Plex served from the iMac to my Apple TV was the only thing that played this thing with all,

00:45:18   you know, played it all period, but played it smoothly and everything. So I tried to

00:45:22   fuse, I immediately looked at those, that exact file, which turns out is, this is the

00:45:26   info from MPlayer, so I don't know how to parse it, but it's HEVC, which I think is

00:45:31   H.264, particular profile, 1920 by 1080, so 1080, I don't know if it's I or P, I assume

00:45:37   it's P, because it's all a video file. 24 frames per second, about 1100 kilobits per

00:45:43   second, two-track 48 kilohertz AAC audio, the Apple TV can't play without

00:45:50   stuttering. So if it's decoding it on the device, it can't handle this. So I

00:45:56   was sad because that was the one reason I bought it. But aside from that, it's a

00:46:00   reasonable way, like Casey said, if you have a whole bunch of folders full of

00:46:05   video files sitting somewhere on your network, this will go through the folders

00:46:09   and play stuff for you.

00:46:12   And so I'm not sad that I purchased it, I am sad that apparently their software combined

00:46:17   with the wimpy A8, relatively wimpy A8 CPU system on a chip thing inside my Apple TV

00:46:24   can't play this fairly demanding file.

00:46:27   And I already watched the whole show.

00:46:28   I watched it on my iPad by the way, because what I did was I went into Plex and finally,

00:46:31   I finally had to give in and say "fine Plex, you can optimize this" quote unquote "optimize

00:46:37   by re-encoding it to a smaller size, and then I watched it on my TV and on my iPad over

00:46:41   the course of a few days.

00:46:43   Wait, so you said this was HEVC video?

00:46:45   'Cause that's H.265, that's kind of a big deal.

00:46:49   That's like, it's very reasonable to not be strong enough to play that.

00:46:52   Oh, well that's probably, it doesn't have the hardware?

00:46:55   I remember reading about some Apple thing that actually has H.265 hardware, but it isn't

00:47:00   actually used, but anyway, that would make sense in that, like, Infuse probably does

00:47:05   great because the aid has dedicated H.264 decode hardware.

00:47:09   But if it's not H.264 and instead it's H.265 and either the system on a chip doesn't have

00:47:13   hardware for it or the hardware isn't enabled by Apple's OS, then yeah, it would have to

00:47:18   be trying to do it all on the CPU and I can understand why it would choke to death.

00:47:21   Yeah, I also should point out that just earlier today I listened to MacPowerUser's episode

00:47:29   299, which we will put a link in the show notes.

00:47:32   And if you've ever wanted an unbiased opinion about, or certainly not biased by me, opinion

00:47:37   about Plex, if you've wondered how to get started with it, if you've wondered what it

00:47:43   brings to the table, listen to Back Hour Users 299.

00:47:45   It's a really great episode that goes all into Plex.

00:47:48   So you should check that out.

00:47:49   Here's one more drive-by complaint about Plex, which I cannot believe that they don't do.

00:47:53   I just assume they did, and maybe I haven't found it yet.

00:47:55   So you have a blog post, which maybe you can link in the show notes, Casey, about like

00:47:58   introduction to Plex that you did a while ago, like how to name your files, linking

00:48:02   to like the Plex file naming guide and figuring out, I'm like, and I wondered when I read

00:48:06   that at the time, like, because I wasn't using Plex that much, I'm like, this seems weird,

00:48:10   mate. Why is he doing this? Just because like, Oh, if you want to have everything perfect,

00:48:13   just do it this way. But like surely there's a feature in this thing where you can essentially

00:48:16   just find some media that it either has shrugged its shoulders at or has misidentified and

00:48:21   say, Oh, well you got it wrong. And go in there and just type some random words in a

00:48:25   a search box until you find the search result you want and go, "Oh yeah, it's that one."

00:48:29   So like, say you mislabeled Star Wars or something and it's confused about what it is, and you're

00:48:34   like, "Oh, well, you don't know what this is because I have the files named weird or

00:48:37   whatever, so I'm just going to go in to your search box and type 'Star Wars' and see the

00:48:41   8,000 results for Star Wars and find the one that is not the special edition but the original

00:48:45   1977 version and just click on that one and say, 'Yeah, this is that one.'" Is that feature

00:48:49   not existent Plex? If it exists, I can't find it.

00:48:51   No, it does.

00:48:52   I can't find it.

00:48:53   - I swear it does, but I can't walk you through where it is

00:48:55   because my iMac is in my trunk right now.

00:48:58   - All right, well anyway, maybe I haven't found it yet,

00:48:59   but like every time I go to edit the metadata,

00:49:01   it's like, you know, if I name the file,

00:49:04   then yeah, we'll figure it out.

00:49:05   If I don't name the file right,

00:49:06   all I can do is like pick cover art and stuff.

00:49:08   If it is totally wrong about the metadata,

00:49:11   I can't do a search and say,

00:49:13   surely the database that you are using has this metadata

00:49:15   and that you're just not finding the right one.

00:49:17   So rather than me editing the individual metadata,

00:49:19   which I don't wanna do, I just wanna say,

00:49:21   let me do a search of your big database full of stuff,

00:49:24   like a pretty broad search,

00:49:26   and let me pick the blob of metadata

00:49:28   that I'm telling you is this one,

00:49:29   so that I can manually fix everything that I had.

00:49:31   Like, so that if I didn't know how to label,

00:49:33   like some, you know, special of a show,

00:49:36   like a Christmas special of a show,

00:49:37   that's not part of any particular season,

00:49:39   if I didn't know the secret season zero weird,

00:49:41   you know, convention they have,

00:49:43   I can be like, oh, well,

00:49:43   let me just do a chronological search

00:49:46   of the most recent episodes from this series,

00:49:48   and I will find whatever blob of metadata corresponds

00:49:51   to this and then click on it

00:49:52   and it will automatically label it as like season zero.

00:49:54   I'm like, oh, I would never figure that on my own.

00:49:57   Anyway, I'm still working through my Plex expertise.

00:50:00   - Yeah, you know, the thing with Plex is it's very

00:50:02   opinionated about file names and file conventions.

00:50:05   But once you understand its opinions,

00:50:07   it's actually very simple to work with.

00:50:09   And that's what my blog post was about.

00:50:11   I am almost positive the feature that you're talking about,

00:50:13   John, about fixing mismatches, I'm almost sure it's there,

00:50:17   but I don't want to say that for certainty

00:50:19   because I can't try it right now,

00:50:21   because again, my Plex server is currently

00:50:22   in the trunk of my car.

00:50:23   - Yeah, I'll keep looking for it,

00:50:25   but the thing with the opinionated naming,

00:50:28   its opinions are wrong, so.

00:50:29   (laughing)

00:50:30   I refuse to comply.

00:50:31   I know the naming scheme now.

00:50:33   I've read the documentation,

00:50:34   but there's no way in hell I'm putting a year in parentheses

00:50:36   at the end of my movies or television shows, no.

00:50:39   And I object to season zero.

00:50:41   I don't like it.

00:50:42   (laughing)

00:50:43   - For the record, season zero for TV shows,

00:50:46   specials. So like the Top Gear Polar special, for example, would be a season zero entry.

00:50:51   Anyway, we have a fair bit of feedback about Swift and Default Final, and I'm stunned.

00:50:57   I'm flabbergasted. It appears that Marco has done some homework and has put something

00:51:01   in the show notes.

00:51:02   I flagged an email, yeah.

00:51:03   Wow.

00:51:04   Yeah, I hit three keys to make this happen.

00:51:05   Are you okay? Do you feel all right?

00:51:07   No.

00:51:08   All right, so this was feedback from Nick Matsakis from a longer email. It's very

00:51:15   very thoughtful. I'm going to read just a quote here. He said, so we were talking about

00:51:18   Swift basically having classes be default final as a proposed change to the language

00:51:24   during the revolution. That's kind of a debate raging on right now. And this would mean basically

00:51:28   that by default classes couldn't be sub-classed. That you could, sub-classing would still exist

00:51:33   in the language but the default, unless the class was specially marked with whatever keyword

00:51:38   would say, you know, extensible or whatever, the default would be you can't sub-class things.

00:51:43   Nick says, "The late 80s and early 90s were the heyday for object-oriented programming,

00:51:48   and in languages designed in that time, like C++, Objective-C, and Java, it was taken as

00:51:52   a given that subclassing was a good thing and should be used pervasively. However, a

00:51:56   couple of decades of experiences with such languages has led to two key insights I think

00:52:00   we've learned as an industry. The first is that in order to write classes that can be

00:52:03   robustly extended through inheritance, allowing both the base and derived classes to evolve

00:52:08   with minimal risk of breaking each other, see also the fragile base class problem, careful

00:52:12   for consideration should be given at the time the class is designed and written. I think

00:52:16   this argues for default closed. I think we've learned an even more important lesson though,

00:52:20   which is that class inheritance should be thought of as a limited tool to solve a prescribed

00:52:24   set of problems, not a general mechanism for code reuse. So this makes a lot of sense to

00:52:30   me. Like this, I totally agree with Nick. You know, I think I kind of breezed by when

00:52:34   we were talking about this last week, a quick statement of basically saying like I think

00:52:38   we've seen a lot of anti-patterns and dysfunction

00:52:40   that subclassing everywhere can bring,

00:52:43   and some of the challenges it brings, some of the,

00:52:45   I think I agree that what we've seen

00:52:48   is that it basically shouldn't be the default

00:52:50   that's everywhere, and the Java people

00:52:53   will have to find a different way to program, I guess.

00:52:56   And they can, and the PHP people

00:52:58   have to find somebody else to copy.

00:53:00   - This is actually a pretty old nugget of wisdom,

00:53:04   the whole, the downsides of subclassing.

00:53:07   And you can tell it's old because Objective-C is,

00:53:12   in many ways, a reaction to it.

00:53:13   Objective-C is like 1989-ish.

00:53:15   Like it is itself a very old language.

00:53:17   And not Objective-C so much,

00:53:19   but like the frameworks built on it,

00:53:20   AppKit or whatever it was called.

00:53:22   I think it was maybe it was always called AppKit.

00:53:23   But anyway, the next step frameworks,

00:53:27   especially the UI frameworks, use delegation a lot,

00:53:30   a lot more than contemporary frameworks

00:53:33   for doing similar things that were all about subclassing.

00:53:35   They were either functional,

00:53:36   in which case they didn't have object classes at all,

00:53:39   or they were enamored of the idea of subclassing.

00:53:42   But the next APIs and frameworks

00:53:45   heavily use delegation patterns to avoid subclassing

00:53:49   and to say this is a better way.

00:53:50   That way we have understandable individual objects

00:53:53   that just use each other to do things.

00:53:55   And the way you alter behavior

00:53:57   is by giving it a different delegate.

00:53:59   I mean, hell, that's essentially,

00:54:01   Marco can correct me if I'm wrong,

00:54:03   the next equivalent of like, you know,

00:54:06   you don't write a main routine,

00:54:07   there is a main routine obviously,

00:54:08   but your app delegate is basically your application.

00:54:12   Am I correct in my vague understanding

00:54:14   of the Cocoa frameworks?

00:54:16   - Yeah, you don't subclass UI application.

00:54:19   You provide an app delegate that conforms to the protocol

00:54:22   and you get messages delivered there

00:54:23   and if you don't pay attention it bloats over time

00:54:26   and eventually all of the code in your app

00:54:28   is in the app delegate.

00:54:29   - Well, that's like writing all of your code in main,

00:54:31   like a rookie mistake, right?

00:54:33   But yeah, but like so even like the very simplest starting

00:54:38   point of your program is done through delegation.

00:54:40   And lots of the UI frameworks are done through delegation.

00:54:43   And then delegation eventually--

00:54:47   not specifically delegation, but trying to avoid inheritance

00:54:51   can lead you to a sort of the inversion of a control pattern,

00:54:55   which can get kind of weird and nasty,

00:54:57   speaking of Java, where you're trying to use composition

00:55:00   instead of inheritance, but you want

00:55:01   to give people access to the different pieces that get composed into the whole, and so your

00:55:07   entire program is dictating what things are composed into what to get your classes into

00:55:12   the parts we need to go.

00:55:13   Anyway, any sort of code reuse, essentially, technology, a code reuse technique, whether

00:55:19   it's inheritance or delegation or composition or any of the other patterns in the little

00:55:22   big pattern of books, can go awry.

00:55:24   But I think pretty early on in the histriology-oriented programming, the downsides of inheritance

00:55:31   clear and anything that came after that sort of understanding has tried to do something

00:55:36   different including the things that were the precursors to the frameworks that Apple now

00:55:40   uses.

00:55:41   But we were talking about in the context of like even AppKit and UIKit and all these frameworks

00:55:44   that use delegation patterns as application programmers often use subclass either because

00:55:50   that's the intended use of the thing still in some cases or because you like that thing

00:55:55   but you just want it to be a little bit different or you need to just override this but just

00:55:59   You know, like, because it's possible, it is a tool that's in the tool belt of programmers

00:56:03   to get what they want out of frameworks, whether or not their framework really ever intended

00:56:06   you to subclass that thing.

00:56:08   Yep.

00:56:09   All right.

00:56:10   So another thing that was written in Andreas Hartl, he made some great points about mocking

00:56:16   using Swift.

00:56:17   He said there's another unforeseen consequence of going final by default.

00:56:21   Tests that could have used mocks to ensure their framework method was called can't do

00:56:25   that anymore.

00:56:26   because mocks rely on subclassing to replace all API functionality with noops.

00:56:30   I'm not going to get into what mocking is if you're not familiar with it, but suffice

00:56:34   to say that in the last couple of years I've really gotten into unit testing, like formal

00:56:40   unit testing, and mocking is kind of your path to happiness there.

00:56:44   And it's what really made me understand why designing to interfaces or protocols, if you

00:56:49   will, is really kind of the right idea.

00:56:52   And that's not an insignificant problem

00:56:54   if this is the way that Swift goes.

00:56:57   So I thought that was a very astute point.

00:56:59   - It seems like it's a not insignificant problem to me

00:57:01   because I assume there would always be a compiler mode

00:57:05   that says disregard the final keyword.

00:57:07   You know what I mean?

00:57:07   Like for when you run your unit tests,

00:57:10   don't seal anything up as final

00:57:12   because it shouldn't affect functionality.

00:57:14   Maybe you would disable some optimizations

00:57:16   and maybe you wouldn't have a bug for bug compatible thing

00:57:18   in terms of maybe there's like a bug in the compiler

00:57:20   because the optimization goes awry,

00:57:22   but it seems trivial to me to have a compiler option

00:57:26   that says either just ignore final entirely,

00:57:31   like don't seal up any classes,

00:57:32   or change what the default is,

00:57:35   or something like that that allows you

00:57:36   to mock in your unit tests.

00:57:38   - Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting point.

00:57:40   I don't know how that would be handled.

00:57:42   Moving on, Neil Cronin was one of a few people

00:57:45   to write in and point out the error in what I,

00:57:47   or potential error in what I had said.

00:57:48   I don't recall exactly how I'd phrase things,

00:57:50   but it sounds like I probably got it a little wrong.

00:57:53   He pointed out that C# methods are final by default,

00:57:58   but classes are not.

00:58:00   And so I think I might have interspersed classes and methods

00:58:03   a little bit last episode, but to be absolutely clear,

00:58:06   classes are not final by default, but methods are.

00:58:09   So that's my bad on that.

00:58:11   We'll have a link in the show notes to that.

00:58:13   Also, Chris D.,

00:58:16   I'm not gonna even try to pronounce your surname.

00:58:19   - Zomback, I mean, I go with Zomback.

00:58:21   - Okay, there you go.

00:58:23   Pointed out that you can do something like final

00:58:25   and Objective-C with a couple of fancy compiler directives.

00:58:30   - You put enough underscores and anything is possible in C/C++.

00:58:35   (laughing)

00:58:35   Underscore, underscore, attribute, underscore, underscore,

00:58:38   double open parens, objc, subclassing restricted,

00:58:41   double close parens.

00:58:43   Yes, there are so many attributes you can add.

00:58:46   You could annotate all your things with nullability information for the Swift bridging and you

00:58:50   can say Objective-C subclassing restricted.

00:58:54   That's from Jesse Squires, gave that little attribute.

00:58:56   Yikes.

00:58:57   Goodness.

00:58:58   All right, and then one of you guys wanted to talk about Rust versus Swift versus Go.

00:59:03   Yeah, that was me.

00:59:05   The Rust people have come out to defend the honor of their language and to differentiate

00:59:10   it from those other things, Go and Swift.

00:59:12   we were talking about, the languages that are kind of in a little group of these static

00:59:17   compiled languages with an eye towards being a better C++ without all the downsides of

00:59:24   C or C++, you know, being like Swift essentially.

00:59:29   And Benjamin Sago, yes, points out that Rust—I mean, I think we mentioned in the show, but

00:59:35   he's emphasized by a lot of Rust people—Rust is not garbage collected.

00:59:39   Go uses garbage collector at runtime, Swift of course uses reference counting.

00:59:43   That means there are programs you can write in Rust that you couldn't write in Swift or

00:59:46   Go, such as graphics intensive game, a browser engine, an OS or device driver or a garbage

00:59:50   collector, anything that has to interact with the language that has its own garbage collector.

00:59:53   Now I would imagine the Swift people at the very least would object to the idea that you

00:59:58   can't write a graphics intensive game or browser engine or an OS because those are some of

01:00:02   the stated goals of Swift.

01:00:03   Oh yeah, I would even object to his characterization of reference counting as a form of garbage

01:00:08   collection.

01:00:09   I don't think I agree with that.

01:00:10   >> But what he's talking about is like my understanding, I'm sure we'll get more email

01:00:14   about this with Russ because I haven't done enough of my homework, is that the way Russ

01:00:17   gets around not having a garbage collector and not doing reference counting is at compile

01:00:21   time it figures out what it has to do with memory rather than at run -- you know, in

01:00:29   other words, it's not like the thing against garbage collection we know is like at some

01:00:32   point you have to go wander all of your stuff and clean out the garbage and that takes time

01:00:36   and even if you do it on another thread,

01:00:39   at some point you may need to pause the program.

01:00:42   And if you don't need to pause it

01:00:43   and you have a pause-free garbage collection,

01:00:44   there's always some kind of overhead

01:00:46   of having to do the garbage collection

01:00:49   while your program is running.

01:00:51   And the SWIFT solution,

01:00:53   and the objective solution for that matter,

01:00:55   but the SWIFT solution is figure out,

01:00:59   use reference counting to figure out

01:01:00   when things aren't needed anymore

01:01:01   and put the reference count,

01:01:04   put the stuff that deals with the reference counting

01:01:05   in line with your program.

01:01:07   So while your program is running,

01:01:08   it will do this thing, do this thing,

01:01:10   increment this reference count,

01:01:11   do this thing, do this thing, do this thing,

01:01:12   decrement this reference count.

01:01:13   And like when the reference count goes to zero,

01:01:14   you can get rid of that memory.

01:01:18   So it's in line in your program.

01:01:20   It's actual code execution.

01:01:21   It's not another thread

01:01:22   running in a garbage collector or anything like that.

01:01:23   It's like, it's as if you had written in your program

01:01:25   in C parlance, you're writing malloc and free, right?

01:01:28   You know when you can free the memory

01:01:29   'cause that's when you write the free thing.

01:01:30   And you know when you're allocating memory

01:01:32   'cause you write malloc and you have to figure out,

01:01:34   Now, it's reference counting, but it's inline.

01:01:36   And so in some code, you don't want this bookkeeping

01:01:40   of incrementing and decrementing this number

01:01:42   to keep track of how many references there are to it.

01:01:45   You just don't.

01:01:46   Like when you're writing the kernel of an operating system

01:01:48   in C, most of the time, you're not

01:01:50   implementing your own reference counting system.

01:01:52   You're just putting the mallocs in the right place

01:01:53   and putting the threes in the right place.

01:01:54   Or if you're in a particular part of the kernel,

01:01:57   you can't use malloc or free.

01:01:59   You've got to do everything with wired down memory.

01:02:01   And so you can't have anything having to, you know,

01:02:04   like it's not appropriate to have automated

01:02:08   memory management in that way.

01:02:10   I would imagine the answer for Swift is

01:02:12   that you can write those parts of the program.

01:02:15   If you understand enough about how Swift manages memory,

01:02:18   even though you don't see any of the memory management,

01:02:20   you can do it in such a way that you know

01:02:22   that all of the silly reference counting,

01:02:25   increment decrement stuff will be removed by the optimizer

01:02:28   as no ops, because you know exactly how, you know,

01:02:30   how things are gonna get sorted out

01:02:32   and this thing will run straight through

01:02:33   without any memory access stuff.

01:02:34   But still Rust is heavily focused on the idea

01:02:37   that it does not use a garbage collector

01:02:39   and it doesn't use reference counting.

01:02:40   So it's really trying to be like C and C++.

01:02:43   Both of them do not have garbage collections

01:02:45   and they don't use reference counting

01:02:46   unless you write it yourself.

01:02:47   So Rust is definitely a closer match

01:02:51   to a replacement for those programs.

01:02:53   And I do believe that there are probably some programs,

01:02:55   especially now with Swift as young as it is,

01:02:59   that could be written in Rust

01:03:00   could not be written as efficiently in Swift. But long term, I think that'll be quite a battle.

01:03:04   All right. Anything else about Swift? Please no.

01:03:08   All right. How about MagSafe and USB-C ports? Last episode, I think, we were talking about

01:03:16   the MacBook One connector with that MagSafe adapter that fits in the little USB-C port on

01:03:22   the side and whether it was really necessary. And none of us had MacBook Ones that we had tripped

01:03:26   over or yanked the cord out of, and I said I thought that nobody had done that experiment.

01:03:31   Well, Glenn Fleischmann didn't do the experiment, but did delve into the science behind the

01:03:36   USB-C connector to try to figure out, with a thought experiment and some basic physics

01:03:42   calculations and some numbers from the USB-C spec, what would happen if you tripped over

01:03:47   a MacBook One cord that was plugged in, as compared to what would happen if it had a

01:03:51   MagSafe connector.

01:03:52   And the conclusion of this article, which again, this is an older article, might have

01:03:55   been even before the MacBook One was out, but it had been announced obviously, was that

01:04:00   your laptop will fall on the ground.

01:04:02   That yes, you totally can pull a MacBook One off of a surface onto the ground by tripping

01:04:07   over the cord just based on the forces involved and the speed of the yanking and the angle

01:04:15   and all these other things.

01:04:16   You can read the article to find out.

01:04:18   Perhaps not as good as actually doing the experiment, perhaps not as good as a bunch

01:04:21   of people who own MacBook Ones having their children trip over the cords and find out

01:04:25   what happens, but so far no one has written in about that happening, so all we have is

01:04:28   this speculation by Glenn Fleischman. But there you go, there's an answer.

01:04:31   All right, and why don't you tell us about UpThere and whether or not they use AWS?

01:04:35   Yeah, just a quickie follow-up. Last time, someone had said they used AWS, and UpThere

01:04:40   had replied on Twitter, "No, we don't. We host all our own stuff." And so a couple

01:04:43   people went back and forth on Twitter trying to figure out, well, then why is UpThere connecting

01:04:47   to AWS? And a theory was that it was because of Crashlytics, which was a crash reporting

01:04:51   thing, and up there confirmed they do use Crashlytics and Crashlytics said if you use

01:04:57   Crashlytics you will connect to AWS, so there's your answer to why up there is connecting

01:05:01   to AWS, it's for Crashlytics.

01:05:04   Excellent.

01:05:05   That's the magic of Twitter by the way, random podcast that we do, random listener of the

01:05:10   podcast uses a little snitch software to say they saw it connecting to AWS, and then the

01:05:15   three companies that replied, the three sort of corporate Twitter accounts, the little

01:05:19   Snatch account, the Crashlytics account, and the UpThere account. It's the magic of Twitter.

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01:07:24   - Excellent.

01:07:25   So you went to a tech talk?

01:07:27   - Yeah, I went yesterday to the Apple TV tech talk

01:07:30   in New York.

01:07:31   So the tech talks are basically,

01:07:32   Apple goes around the country

01:07:33   with the developer relations team,

01:07:36   maybe not every year, maybe every couple of years,

01:07:38   it depends on like when they can do it,

01:07:39   but they basically send the team around,

01:07:41   kind of as like a halfway point between WWDCs.

01:07:46   And they put on these little,

01:07:47   it's basically a one day mini WWDC

01:07:51   that is usually focused on just one relatively new platform.

01:07:56   So I went to one a few years ago that was just for iOS.

01:07:58   I believe last year, I might have watched one, I forget,

01:08:01   but this year they're doing Apple TV tech talks.

01:08:04   And so it's free, it's one day,

01:08:06   you sign up, it's just picked by lottery,

01:08:08   and it's in a bunch of cities around the world,

01:08:11   and you just go and it's in like a hotel meeting room

01:08:14   or whatever, it looks exactly like mini WWDC.

01:08:18   It's great and very well presented,

01:08:20   high quality presentations,

01:08:22   but only like a few hundred people in attendance

01:08:25   rather than 5,000 in the giant Moscone Center.

01:08:27   So it's a nice small scale, you actually get to talk

01:08:31   to the Apple people and meet other developers

01:08:33   on a nicer, smaller, shorter,

01:08:36   and way less expensive scale.

01:08:38   So I went and it was great.

01:08:40   I still am not entirely convinced

01:08:44   that I want to be developing for the Apple TV yet.

01:08:46   I would like to do it sometime.

01:08:48   I'm not sure that time is now.

01:08:50   I'm very excited to develop for it.

01:08:52   I just, I don't know.

01:08:54   I'm not seeing the market demand for it yet, really.

01:08:59   So if you really want overcast on the Apple TV,

01:09:01   I guess let me know, but right now,

01:09:04   I just haven't heard from enough people

01:09:06   who really want that, and other things,

01:09:08   I think, are more important for now.

01:09:10   But I do look forward to it.

01:09:11   It's a great platform.

01:09:13   And the talks were all about basically

01:09:17   video playback and games.

01:09:19   Like that was like the main areas that they focused on.

01:09:21   Because that is what the Apple TV is best at,

01:09:23   video playback and games.

01:09:25   As an audio only podcast app,

01:09:27   I'm not sure there's much for me to do there

01:09:29   besides get people's audio into their

01:09:33   like home theater system.

01:09:33   Which people do occasionally request,

01:09:35   but it doesn't seem like there's much demand for me there.

01:09:38   But we will see.

01:09:39   IOS 9.3 and tvOS, whatever, is it also 9.3?

01:09:42   The new beta that we should talk about.

01:09:44   They added a podcast app,

01:09:46   like their own Apple podcast app finally.

01:09:47   So I guess we'll see if a lot of people use that

01:09:51   and I started hearing people saying,

01:09:51   "Oh, I switched back to the podcast app

01:09:53   "so I could play it on my Apple TV."

01:09:55   If that happens a lot, I will definitely respond to that

01:09:58   and I'll make it happen.

01:09:59   But I think eventually it might,

01:10:03   but I don't think the time is yet.

01:10:05   So I guess we'll see.

01:10:06   if you're somebody who makes the app for a video owner.

01:10:11   A lot of the people there I talked to,

01:10:13   they were the iOS programmer or on the iOS programming team

01:10:16   for a TV network or something like that.

01:10:19   That makes sense.

01:10:20   For them to be making apps, that makes total sense.

01:10:23   But for me, I'm not sure it makes sense yet, but we'll see.

01:10:27   Anyway, so I think we should honestly talk about iOS 9.3.

01:10:31   Do you guys--

01:10:32   - I was just gonna second your endorsement of Tech Talks.

01:10:34   I've only been to one, but it was exactly what you said.

01:10:37   It's like a little mini WWDC in a worse venue.

01:10:41   - Yeah, but it's free, and it's one day, it's great.

01:10:43   - With slightly worse food.

01:10:45   - Honestly, the food here was better by a lot.

01:10:48   - Maybe things have changed.

01:10:49   I guess it probably depends on the hotel.

01:10:50   Maybe they have to use the hotel's catering,

01:10:52   but the one I went to,

01:10:53   they had these terrible little box lunches,

01:10:55   which granted, the box lunches at WWDC

01:10:56   aren't that great either, but these were even worse.

01:10:58   - No, we had a hot buffet, and it helped.

01:11:02   I didn't even try the coffee

01:11:03   because there was a Cafe Grumpy downstairs.

01:11:05   So I just went to the Cafe Grumpy

01:11:07   and get excellent coffee there.

01:11:09   Anyway, so yeah, 9.3.

01:11:13   So this was weird.

01:11:14   - This was very weird.

01:11:16   - Monday or yesterday, I forget.

01:11:17   Anyway, this week, earlier this week,

01:11:19   Apple unveiled a page on their website

01:11:23   called iOS 9.3 Preview.

01:11:26   So, and they released, I guess, Beta 1,

01:11:28   or I hadn't even looked at it yet,

01:11:29   but they released Beta 1 of iOS 9.3,

01:11:33   whatever version of watchOS I think corresponds to that,

01:11:35   and then tvOS the same,

01:11:37   whatever version corresponds to that.

01:11:38   And so there's a few very interesting things about this.

01:11:43   So first of all, Apple has never given this public unveiling

01:11:48   of a beta OS before, and in a marketing way.

01:11:54   - They do it in OS X.

01:11:55   Like at a certain point in the OS X beta release cycle

01:11:57   for many, many years now, they've had a page

01:11:59   It's basically apple.com/OS with a little x, /preview or some other word and it shows

01:12:06   you the features of the upcoming as yet unreleased.

01:12:09   This is even before they had the public betas.

01:12:10   They wouldn't do it for the very first build.

01:12:12   Very often they'd wait until it was a WWDC announcement but they would have an entire

01:12:16   section of their site dedicated to the OS that you cannot yet download.

01:12:20   The weird thing for iOS is, I don't know if they've ever done it for iOS because they

01:12:23   don't pay that much attention, but they did it pretty much simultaneously with the beta

01:12:27   release to developers.

01:12:29   So it's not like developers would go to Apple's public website to see the features of the

01:12:32   beta that they are just able to download now.

01:12:35   Yeah, like it's great.

01:12:37   And what would usually happen in the past iOS is like the beta would come out and then

01:12:42   immediately all the rumor sites would have people digging through it and then like within

01:12:46   hours of it being released, rumor sites would have like 10 articles about each little minor

01:12:50   change somewhere in the settings screen or an app got a new tweak or whatever.

01:12:55   So this makes sense as a way for Apple to basically

01:12:58   just kind of own that and control the message

01:13:00   and have it be a proper marketing handling

01:13:04   of this kind of event rather than just letting

01:13:07   the rumor sites dictate everything.

01:13:09   So that's good.

01:13:10   It's kind of like legalizing pot.

01:13:12   It's like if you want to discourage the bad behavior,

01:13:14   just take away the value.

01:13:17   Apple just, here, here's everything that's new.

01:13:19   Here you go.

01:13:20   - Well, not everything that's new.

01:13:21   I still hope, I assume the rumor sites found all the new.

01:13:23   'cause that little change in that settings screen,

01:13:25   Apple's not gonna put it on their giant preview page.

01:13:27   - What, the Wi-Fi Assist label of how much data's used?

01:13:30   - Yeah, or stuff like that.

01:13:31   Like, there's still plenty of fodder

01:13:32   for rumor sites to dig into, but they hit the highlights.

01:13:35   - Yeah, but it's plenty of boring fodder

01:13:37   for them to dig into, and yeah, Apple--

01:13:39   - Well, that's their core, the core audience needs to know,

01:13:42   tell me every screen that changed,

01:13:44   did they change the spacing on this label?

01:13:46   - One of the most high-profile changes they've made

01:13:51   is called Night Shift. And Apple was the very first people to ever come up with this idea

01:13:58   of changing the color balance on your display, changing the white balance, so that it's cool

01:14:05   temperature and what we consider now to be neutral during the day. And then at night,

01:14:10   it slowly changes to a warmer color temperature. So you don't have your eyes be shown blue

01:14:15   light that keeps you awake and makes you sleep worse. So it slowly warms the color temperature

01:14:20   on the display until you go to bed

01:14:22   and then changes automatically the next day.

01:14:24   I wish this was available on my Mac.

01:14:27   For years I've wanted something like this

01:14:29   and no one has ever thought of it before.

01:14:31   - If only.

01:14:32   - Your tone of voice makes me think

01:14:33   you suddenly support patents.

01:14:34   - Yes, other people have had this idea before

01:14:37   but you can't, an idea is out there for anybody to take.

01:14:40   So I really hope, I forgot if they even did have a patent

01:14:43   or whatever but this is an obvious enough idea

01:14:46   that I would not call this a Sherlocking.

01:14:49   I would not call this a case where Apple is taking an application wholesale, like, you

01:14:54   know, the Watson application and making their own equivalent that's named based on the same

01:15:00   theme as the original application that looks like the other application that works like

01:15:03   the other.

01:15:04   This is not an application.

01:15:05   This is a fairly simple idea that was not invented, I'm sure, by the creators of the

01:15:10   Flex application that you're referring to.

01:15:12   Yes.

01:15:13   That I'm totally okay with Apple taking because it's a good idea, and I don't think anyone

01:15:18   on that idea, even if someone actually does.

01:15:20   - Well, I think I might disagree with both of those points.

01:15:22   So yeah, I was being sarcastic, obviously.

01:15:26   What we're talking about is there's been this application

01:15:28   called Flux, spelled F dot L-U-X,

01:15:31   and it's been available on computers forever.

01:15:34   And they had an iOS hack version where you couldn't,

01:15:38   they couldn't put it in the app store,

01:15:41   so they did a silo where you could download

01:15:43   a binary library with a project into Xcode,

01:15:47   and have it installed onto your phone.

01:15:50   And they did this back in November,

01:15:53   and it got thousands or millions,

01:15:55   there are tons of downloads.

01:15:57   And then on November 12th, two months ago,

01:16:01   they posted saying that Apple had contacted them

01:16:06   and had said that the iOS download

01:16:10   of their kind of sideloaded app here

01:16:12   was in violation of the developer agreement.

01:16:15   So this method of install is no longer available.

01:16:18   Apple has indicated this should not continue.

01:16:21   So they don't really say like if Apple like legally threatened them or anything because

01:16:27   technically they could have continued to distribute it probably.

01:16:32   So this was all just two months ago.

01:16:34   And then all of a sudden now in what is the next major iOS feature update, that next update

01:16:42   has a feature that is a direct copy of what this does.

01:16:46   So I wonder if they actually made some kind of small deal

01:16:49   where maybe Apple said, "We don't want you doing this.

01:16:52   "Shut it down and we're gonna do it ourselves

01:16:54   "and we won't sue you, or shut it down,

01:16:57   "we'll give you a small amount of money

01:16:58   "and we'll do it ourselves and you won't say anything."

01:17:00   You know, it's probably something like that, but--

01:17:02   - The only reason they have to give them some money

01:17:04   is if they have a super dumb patent on this idea, right?

01:17:06   There's two separate issues here.

01:17:07   One, being mean to the makers of Flux

01:17:10   and not letting them use sideloading to this.

01:17:12   Not allowing sideloading at all.

01:17:14   Like that's a whole separate issue of like,

01:17:15   hey Apple, why is the only way

01:17:17   that people can get applications on their devices

01:17:19   through the App Store?

01:17:20   What about a way that you won't complain about

01:17:23   that expert users can use?

01:17:25   Not a lot of people are gonna use it.

01:17:26   No one's gonna download Xcode

01:17:27   and build their own thing and sideload.

01:17:29   Like only, you know, only the nerds are gonna do it.

01:17:31   Why not just let that go?

01:17:32   That is a separate issue.

01:17:34   The separate issue from, is it okay for Apple

01:17:37   to take this idea that again,

01:17:40   I think the inventors of flux probably did not invent,

01:17:43   of changing the color temperature of your display

01:17:45   based on the time of day,

01:17:47   and incorporate that into their OS

01:17:49   for their most popular platform.

01:17:50   That seems like a no-brainer slam dunk,

01:17:52   and the only thing that Apple would trip across

01:17:54   is if someone has a super dumb patent on it

01:17:56   and they have to pay somebody for it.

01:17:57   I have no idea about those legalities,

01:17:59   but I think that whole system of the law is stupid.

01:18:01   I am totally okay with Apple incorporating this idea,

01:18:03   because it's a good idea,

01:18:04   and because nobody should own this idea.

01:18:06   - First of all, I think the way they're doing it,

01:18:08   Just the timing of this and the way they came down

01:18:11   so hard on Flux and then immediately made their own thing,

01:18:14   I think that makes Apple look like a jerk, really.

01:18:16   - Did they make their own thing

01:18:17   or were they already making it?

01:18:19   Had they, like how long has this feature been,

01:18:21   you know, again, Flux is an old application

01:18:23   and there have probably been applications before it,

01:18:25   but I don't think the timing is they saw people

01:18:27   side loading Flux and then they said,

01:18:29   "Oh, we gotta get on that," and decided to add the feature.

01:18:32   It seems like the type of thing that might have been

01:18:33   in the works for a while, but who knows?

01:18:35   - Honestly, I disagree.

01:18:36   I think it's exactly, it's a simple enough feature

01:18:39   that that is exactly what probably happened.

01:18:40   - All right, so even if they did it,

01:18:42   then what difference does it make?

01:18:43   Like, someone saw the idea, this is a thing

01:18:46   that users want, again, separate from the notion

01:18:49   of telling Flux they can't do it,

01:18:50   because that I agree is kind of jerky and annoying, right?

01:18:53   Telling Flux they can't do it is separate from the idea

01:18:55   of, oh, that's a good idea, we should build that in,

01:18:57   because that's exactly how they should work.

01:18:58   If there's something that's a really popular idea

01:19:00   that is very much a system-level thing,

01:19:02   which I'm amazed that Flux could even do what they did,

01:19:04   it seems so much like a system level thing, right? That should be built into the operating

01:19:08   system. And how do you find those things? You either think of them yourself, or you

01:19:10   see that there's lots of user demand for this type of thing. Oh, lots of people are interested

01:19:13   in this feature. We should build it into the stupid OS. And so they do.

01:19:17   - Like, I'm not saying Apple shouldn't have been allowed to do this, or that they shouldn't

01:19:21   have even, I'm not even saying they shouldn't have done it, but the timing of it, the way

01:19:25   they did it and the timing of it, I think is distasteful and makes them look pretty

01:19:29   jerky. - I disagree. I don't think they look any

01:19:32   more or less like jerks. The thing that makes them look like jerks is not letting them sideload.

01:19:36   Incorporating the feature in the OS makes them look like smart OS vendors. I don't think it makes

01:19:40   them look like jerks. I don't think there's any timing. I don't think if they even said,

01:19:44   "We exactly copied this. We were inspired by Flux," and if they came out publicly and said

01:19:49   that the story you're surmising is true, I still think that would be fine. Because I think that's

01:19:52   like, that's, this is a consequence of the idea of people not owning ideas. Like, you want people

01:19:57   to not own ideas, but it still seems distasteful to you that someone came up with this thing and

01:20:01   and that they immediately copied it from them.

01:20:04   There's nothing, you know, they didn't own it.

01:20:07   It's the transfer of ideas.

01:20:09   It's the reason I, at least, am against patents

01:20:11   is the idea that someone will have an idea

01:20:13   and another person will hear that idea

01:20:14   and say that's a good idea and take that idea

01:20:16   and run with it and it's not theirs to own

01:20:20   and there's no copying going on.

01:20:21   It's a shared, anyway, whatever, hippy-dippy stuff.

01:20:25   - I should point out, I did a very similar feature

01:20:27   at Instapaper like five years ago.

01:20:29   Like, it's not new.

01:20:31   Yeah, it's not, like I said, it's not a new idea to computing, it's not a new idea to

01:20:35   like non-computing related lights, like the whole light theory, I don't know, there was

01:20:39   probably some study many, many, many years ago about color temperature and light affecting

01:20:43   sleep patterns that all this has spun out from.

01:20:47   But yeah, and that's why I fear, if I remember, I don't know if someone will send us the link,

01:20:52   I fear that Flux actually does have a patent on this because seriously, like, it should

01:20:56   not be patentable, period. And even under the rules of our current patent system, it

01:21:01   should have been rejected based on prior art, but you know, that never happens.

01:21:04   It doesn't mean anything. But anyway, so I do want to get into a slightly a discussion

01:21:09   of the assumption or the scientific basis of this. So first of all, just to clarify,

01:21:16   when we say it changes the color temperature, for anybody who doesn't know, if you've

01:21:19   ever seen somebody buy a CFL or LED light bulb that looks really blue when you put it

01:21:24   in the house, especially at night, or if you have one that was way too yellow or orange,

01:21:30   you're kind of seeing the issues of color balance and our expectations. So basically,

01:21:36   in the middle of the day during daylight, daylight colored light is more towards the

01:21:42   blue end of the color balance spectrum the way we normally think about it. And then at

01:21:46   night, things like fires and old street lights and incandescent bulbs, those we think of

01:21:54   especially like the bulbs, we think of those as making white light, but in reality it's

01:22:00   more yellow tinted than daylight is. And so our eyes adjust for this, cameras adjust for

01:22:05   this, this is about white balances and cameras, our eyes adjust for this. And so we think

01:22:10   when we're sitting in a room lit by slightly yellow incandescent lights at night time when

01:22:15   it's dark outside, we don't think of it as being a yellow light, we think of it as being

01:22:19   a neutral white light, but then if you see something that is neutral colored like daylight,

01:22:25   it looks blue to you by comparison because you've adjusted to that orange. So anyway,

01:22:30   the principle behind this is that your computer screens, they don't change their color tone

01:22:35   without this. They don't change their color tone throughout the day so that what looks

01:22:38   like a neutral white color balance during the day on a computer screen does look bluish

01:22:43   and or too bright it can be perceived as, and it's kind of tricky, but it looks like

01:22:48   too harsh or too blue or too bright in a dimly lit nighttime room, for the most part. And

01:22:54   the idea here is that this can confuse your body into not preparing for sleep or not sleeping

01:23:02   as well or something like that. And I've looked into, I've tried to see what the scientific

01:23:11   basis for this is, because the idea is that if you can make the screen shift its color

01:23:17   temperature into the warm area. So basically make your computer devices change their own

01:23:23   white balance along with what's going on in your house and around you and your environment

01:23:27   so that in the daytime they're neutral and what we might consider a bluish or a cold

01:23:31   white but then at night they shift and everything gets tinted yellow. The idea that that will

01:23:37   help you sleep, I'm not entirely sure that the evidence I've seen so far proves that.

01:23:43   I think it's a good theory, it might be true.

01:23:47   The studies that are cited everywhere mostly seem to indicate that brightness of light

01:23:53   is important.

01:23:54   So it might not be important to change your lights to be more yellow at night, it might

01:24:00   just be important to avoid bright screens at night and using bright screens like in

01:24:05   bed or before bed or whatever.

01:24:08   That I think makes, from the actual study I've been able to find which is pretty few

01:24:12   and far between, but the Flux site has a good list of them. Bright light emitting devices

01:24:18   are a problem to use late at night for this purpose, but it doesn't necessarily follow

01:24:23   that changing the color temperature of those screens fixes that problem. The studies I'm

01:24:28   looking at, like the one that Flux post posted most recently on, is it Public National Academy

01:24:33   of Sciences? Anyway, I read that one and that was like, you know, iPad versus book. And

01:24:36   it's like, if you read an iPad for four hours before bed versus if you read a book for four

01:24:41   before going to bed, the iPad users measurably had worse sleep and related issues. I thought

01:24:48   at first, if you're bouncing around with apps, that's engaging your brain in a different

01:24:52   way, but no, it sounds like they controlled for that. They had people watching to make

01:24:56   sure that you're actually reading a book, but it's like, if you're staring at an iPad

01:24:59   screen before bed versus reading a book, reading the book is better. But they didn't test if

01:25:03   you stare at an iPad screen with neutral color temperature versus one that is slowly shifting

01:25:08   itself yellow, they didn't say that was better. So it seems like this is two separate

01:25:13   things that the studies that have been done so far show that bright lights at night can

01:25:19   hurt your sleeping. And also we think it's more pleasant and easier on your brain to

01:25:24   tint things yellow, but nothing has actually proven that. And Apple's wording on the

01:25:28   feature is actually very carefully aligned with this. So it says, "Many studies have

01:25:32   shown that exposure to bright blue light in the evening can affect your circadian rhythms

01:25:37   and make it harder to fall asleep.

01:25:39   Night shift uses your iOS device's clock

01:25:40   and geolocation, blah, blah, blah.

01:25:42   It automatically shifts the colors in your display

01:25:43   to the warmer end of the spectrum,

01:25:45   making it easier on your eyes.

01:25:47   It doesn't say that the color shift

01:25:49   will make it easier to fall asleep.

01:25:52   It says bright lights have been shown

01:25:54   to make it harder to fall asleep,

01:25:56   and this will be easier on your eyes,

01:25:59   but there's no connection to sleep there.

01:26:01   - I'm surprised they can't get sued for easier on your eyes,

01:26:04   'cause I don't even know if that's supportable.

01:26:06   more yellowish is easier on your eyes, how is that?

01:26:09   Maybe it's because it's not measurable,

01:26:10   that's why it's supportable, because it's vague enough

01:26:13   that you're like, well, what does easier mean?

01:26:16   So maybe it's vague enough that they're okay, but.

01:26:19   - Right, and there's all sorts of theories about,

01:26:22   that's why you see a lot of yellow-tinted sunglasses,

01:26:25   theories about if you reduce the blue light

01:26:27   more than the other colors, it's easier on the eyes.

01:26:29   There are other things about that, but I don't,

01:26:31   and so I think that's probably backed up,

01:26:34   but it doesn't seem like this is connected necessarily.

01:26:37   So I think if you're concerned about this,

01:26:40   sure, try Flux or try this, try Night Shift.

01:26:43   If you find it pleasant, great, that's a separate thing.

01:26:47   It might not be helping you sleep,

01:26:49   but I think if you want to sleep,

01:26:51   we do have evidence so far, it seems,

01:26:53   that either reducing the brightness of the screen

01:26:56   is probably way more important.

01:26:58   - The screen already does that automatically,

01:26:59   to some degree.

01:27:00   You can pick your brightness, but it does adjust

01:27:02   based on ambient temperature within some range.

01:27:04   So it does-- - Sure, but I would say

01:27:06   reduce the brightness, especially at night.

01:27:08   Either keep it low all the time like I do,

01:27:10   or just set it lower at night,

01:27:13   even set it at the middle point lower.

01:27:15   Or just if you're concerned about this,

01:27:17   and maybe you should be,

01:27:18   just don't use your devices before bed,

01:27:21   because the studies are pretty clear that that helps a lot.

01:27:23   But I don't think we know that changing it to yellow

01:27:26   has a meaningful effect on the quality of your sleep.

01:27:28   It might be more pleasant,

01:27:29   but it might not have a meaningful effect here.

01:27:32   But if you believe it will, then it will. Because the placebo effect is incredibly strong.

01:27:36   And so like there's two aspects. One, some people just find it more pleasant. Like it,

01:27:40   they just like it. It's like, call it fashion or aesthetics or just gives them a warm fuzzy

01:27:44   feeling, they just like it.

01:27:45   Right, and that's fine.

01:27:46   They're fine, right? And the other one is, if they believe it will give them better sleep,

01:27:49   there is a chance that that belief will cause them to have better sleep.

01:27:52   Maybe. But you know, it could be, you know, just like if you start thinking about having

01:27:56   better sleep and wanting to make changes in your life to give you better sleep, you will

01:28:00   probably make other changes that will also give you better sleep. So if you want better

01:28:05   sleep, chances are you should be doing multiple things. And one of those might be don't

01:28:09   be reading your phone every single second at night until the second you go to bed.

01:28:14   I have the opposite of the placebo effect because I do, usually the last thing I do

01:28:18   right before I go to bed is look at an iOS device which is pretty bright in a pretty

01:28:23   dark room. And I've been doing this for years and years and years, since iOS has

01:28:27   has existed as a thing, since the iPod Touch has existed.

01:28:30   And every so often, I think, this is exactly what they tell

01:28:34   you what not to do, like a bright, mostly white light

01:28:38   in your face, like right before bed.

01:28:41   I wonder if this is making me not be able to sleep,

01:28:43   and then I go to sleep instantly.

01:28:44   So everyone's gonna know how I think about it.

01:28:47   It's like I'm trying to convince myself that what I'm doing

01:28:49   is going to be harmful, and I sleep fine.

01:28:52   So it's not-- - Yeah, it's funny

01:28:53   how that is. - If Apple,

01:28:55   maybe the Apple feature does more,

01:28:56   Like maybe it also adjusts the brightness.

01:28:59   If not, maybe it should.

01:29:00   Like that would be like, if it also,

01:29:03   like what I just said, like you know,

01:29:04   reduce the brightness of your screen at night also

01:29:06   in addition to like the automatic thing.

01:29:09   - The brightness range, yeah.

01:29:10   Like basically move the slider for you.

01:29:12   - Yeah, like move like the set point down also.

01:29:15   Or yeah, move the whole range down.

01:29:17   If it also does that automatically,

01:29:19   that's a lot more valuable and maybe it does.

01:29:20   I haven't tried it yet.

01:29:22   - Although I'd be like, is my device getting dim?

01:29:24   What the hell?

01:29:25   Oh, it's that stupid thing again.

01:29:26   (laughing)

01:29:27   I hate when my display looks too dim

01:29:29   and I realize that I've acted like a kid

01:29:30   has leaned on the brightness button

01:29:31   on my keyboard or something, you know?

01:29:33   - Yeah, and like for a long time,

01:29:35   people have complained, many people have complained,

01:29:38   that, and I agree with this complaint,

01:29:41   that the lowest brightness setting on iOS device screens

01:29:45   often isn't low enough.

01:29:46   That if you're in a room where that is the only illumination,

01:29:50   like if you're reading in bed at night,

01:29:52   the lowest brightness setting is often still too bright,

01:29:55   especially if you're using an app with a white background.

01:29:58   And there's been all sorts of people

01:29:59   who will use the accessibility toggles

01:30:02   to try to make it even dimmer,

01:30:03   which messes with my app,

01:30:05   and then they send me bug reports.

01:30:07   There's all sorts of people,

01:30:09   like people who've been doing this for years,

01:30:10   of using special accessibility settings

01:30:13   or special app features to try to reduce it even further.

01:30:16   I mean, in an old version of Instapaper,

01:30:18   when I first introduced dark mode,

01:30:20   in order to get around this problem,

01:30:21   I actually had a translucent black layer

01:30:25   that I could put over the entire window.

01:30:27   Just a giant UI view over the entire window,

01:30:30   or a layer, I forget which one,

01:30:31   but just a giant overlay that I could just dim

01:30:36   as necessary in dark mode,

01:30:37   because the entire interface was not dim enough,

01:30:41   especially on an iPad where you have this giant bright screen

01:30:44   that's way more of a problem on iPads than it is on iPhones.

01:30:46   - Most people should just go into another room,

01:30:47   because I think the bottom brightness setting

01:30:49   is too dim to look at.

01:30:51   Like there's two things that are here.

01:30:53   One is, is it putting off enough light

01:30:55   to annoy another person who's trying to sleep in the room?

01:30:57   Yes, I grant you it's doing that.

01:30:58   But the other is, does it look like a normal screen

01:31:01   or does it look like a screen that's broken?

01:31:02   And when you put the brightness of the bottom setting

01:31:04   in any iOS device, it basically looks broken.

01:31:06   Like things don't look right anymore.

01:31:08   It's not just a dimmer version of the screen.

01:31:09   Now you're changing it in a material way.

01:31:11   Like there are things that you can't read

01:31:13   because the contrast is too low.

01:31:15   Everything is super dark.

01:31:16   It does not look like a slightly dimmer version.

01:31:18   I thought you were going to say about the screens is,

01:31:21   and I've heard this complaint as well,

01:31:22   is that with the dawning of LED backlights

01:31:24   many years ago on most devices, they go way too high.

01:31:28   Like the top brightness setting is blinding in noon.

01:31:31   In the noonday sun, you have to just put it on max brightness

01:31:33   and like these like monitors from random brands

01:31:38   that are not like Apple monitors or Dell or HP,

01:31:41   but just, I mean, you know,

01:31:43   brands that you've never heard of,

01:31:45   they have these really cheap monitors

01:31:46   and they're top brightness setting.

01:31:47   you can like cook eggs with it.

01:31:49   They get really, really bright.

01:31:51   - Oh yeah, I mean even apples.

01:31:53   I have my 5K, I should have,

01:31:54   my 5K is set to just one notch above the middle.

01:31:57   Because it's way too bright if I set it up more than that.

01:32:00   - Yeah, it's just crazy bright, which is good.

01:32:02   I like having that headroom, I guess.

01:32:04   I mean, and maybe you still want it,

01:32:05   like I said, noon day sun,

01:32:07   but if you actually have your iPhone 6 out

01:32:09   in the noon day sun and put it at max brightness,

01:32:11   you'll see it's actually not that bright after all,

01:32:12   compared to the sun.

01:32:13   - Right, I mean that's the thing.

01:32:15   They do this, it makes a lot of sense

01:32:17   portable devices especially because if you have to use it outside in sunlight

01:32:22   it you really need every bit of brightness you can get. But what you need

01:32:25   there, what you need there is a different display tech because LCDs as you crank

01:32:29   the brightness you just get like if you have a completely black screen and you

01:32:32   crank the brightness to max that you can use a black LED backlit screen

01:32:37   completely black one as a flashlight in a dark room because that's how much

01:32:40   light just comes through it is it because it's basically the backlight is

01:32:42   on behind every single pixel and the little liquid crystal things are trying

01:32:45   not to light the light through, but they do, which is why plasma TVs look better.

01:32:49   So OLED doesn't have that problem because it is just not causing the pixels that are

01:32:54   not lit up, they're just not emitting any light.

01:32:56   There's no light behind them, they don't have to block anything, they're just not putting

01:32:58   it like a plasma, they're just not putting out any light.

01:33:01   So the move to OLED could help because if you did have like, "Oh, I'm cranking my iPhone

01:33:05   6 brightness in the noon day sun and I still can't see the screen," even if you put a backlight

01:33:09   behind there that was this gigantic super bright backlight, the contrast between the

01:33:14   the white regions and the black would still be basically the same ratio and so it would

01:33:18   still look all washed out in the noonday sun.

01:33:20   What you really need is to say this is, you know, you can turn the backlight down to a

01:33:24   degree where the LCD screen can block the light going through because the light is so

01:33:29   wimpy that it doesn't go through but the room is so dark that where it does come through

01:33:34   you get a better contrast ratio.

01:33:35   So different display tech, and this is even before you get to reflective display tech,

01:33:39   which of course is a real way to go where there's not actually light coming from behind

01:33:41   it but like a kindle you're relying on the sunlight coming down and bouncing off and

01:33:46   you just make regions of it black so it doesn't bounce off as much and then you get something

01:33:49   that acts like yay an actual book a paper book where it becomes more readable in sunlight

01:33:53   instead of less but we do not have a good hybrid between backlit and reflective screens

01:33:59   there are a lot of ones that have been tried involving either ink and lcd or combinations

01:34:03   of various other tech and none of them are mainstream yet so we'll still wait for that

01:34:07   but in the meantime oled is the next significant step in this area that should really help

01:34:10   On this week's Connected, Federico talks a bit about night shift. And he had said that he had

01:34:18   been using it for a while, and then he went back to—I think he had turned it off or something like

01:34:23   that—and he said—I think he had said that it was like getting stabbed in the eye, because,

01:34:27   you know, Federico doesn't believe in sleeping when the rest of Italy sleeps. He sleeps when we

01:34:32   sleep. And so he said it was really jarring when he had turned it off in the middle of the night.

01:34:37   So whether or not it's real, it certainly is a strong placebo from what I can tell.

01:34:42   I mean, it's also just like, you know, as I mentioned, like your eyes adjust to it.

01:34:46   Your eyes have, you know, auto white balance, you know, in camera terms.

01:34:49   The difference when you're not adjusted, it's a huge difference.

01:34:53   You know, and the easy way to see this difference is if you have a camera,

01:34:58   set the white balance on it manually to daylight and take a picture outside during daylight,

01:35:05   and it should look normal.

01:35:07   Then, with it still set to daylight,

01:35:10   take a picture inside your house at night,

01:35:11   and everything will look insanely yellow.

01:35:14   It's a huge difference.

01:35:16   This is not a subtle shift in colors.

01:35:18   It's a massive difference.

01:35:20   If you are just using your device one night

01:35:23   with this feature enabled the whole night,

01:35:25   and the next night you have the feature disabled

01:35:27   the whole night, you might not even notice the difference

01:35:29   'cause your eyes are adjusting as night falls

01:35:32   the entire time as this thing is happening.

01:35:34   it's a slow change. But if you then immediately, while your eyes are adjusted to the warm color,

01:35:39   immediately see cool colors, then it's going to be very jarring. I don't think that necessarily

01:35:45   says like how big of a difference this makes or whatever. I think that just like, yeah,

01:35:49   the shift is a big shift, you know, but I still don't, I don't think we have anything

01:35:56   to show that this is like super effective. I think, you know, it's primarily an aesthetic

01:36:01   preference and then it might be related to eye strain or the ease on your eyes, but the

01:36:10   connection to sleep quality I think is still very unproven.

01:36:14   So we're running a bit long and I'd like to wrap somewhat soon, but I really wanted to

01:36:19   at least bring up this multi-user iPad thing for the classroom.

01:36:23   So apparently there's going to be a whole bunch of changes for using iPads in the classroom,

01:36:30   And again, this was covered in the most recent episode of Connected where Frasier Spears

01:36:34   showed up.

01:36:35   And it genuinely seems really, really interesting, some of the stuff they're doing.

01:36:40   Teachers can look at their pupil screens.

01:36:43   We're not sure if that's live or if it's just like a snapshot.

01:36:48   There's multi-user iPads, so a user can log into any iPad and get their home folder, so

01:36:54   to speak, on that iPad.

01:36:56   We don't know a whole lot about it, but it seems really interesting.

01:36:59   I'm fascinated to hear the reports from the field how this works, but I'm very skeptical

01:37:06   it'll ever land on regular consumer iPads.

01:37:09   What do you guys think?

01:37:10   Oh, it's gotta come to regular.

01:37:12   This is one of the bigger iPads.

01:37:14   Like it's guaranteed this is gonna come eventually.

01:37:16   It's just a question of when.

01:37:18   Because us, enough iPads are shared devices in families, even if it's just like the three

01:37:22   kids fighting over the two generations old iPad that has been handed down to them.

01:37:27   Yeah, they just need that, like, they've needed this feature for a long time and it seems

01:37:34   like it's not, it seems like it shouldn't be too hard to do, like it doesn't break any

01:37:38   sort of UI paradigm, they could just have an app for switching or whatever, like it's,

01:37:45   because once you're using it as a user it's just like a regular iPad and the only context

01:37:48   switch is "oh well, you know, now your sister wants it so give it to her" and then she launches

01:37:52   that same app and taps on her icon and now it's her iPad.

01:37:57   And they have to fight over storage space and you can use iCloud to mitigate that and

01:38:00   what happens if you don't have enough room in iCloud then when your sister logs in you

01:38:04   lose your saved data because it couldn't get uploaded to iCloud and you know there are

01:38:07   details to work out here and there.

01:38:10   But this seems like a very obvious feature that needs to come to, especially if iPads

01:38:15   continue to you know be more sophisticated and the iPad Pro and everything.

01:38:19   users is a thing that we know is useful for large devices that multiple people might use,

01:38:26   like iMacs or even laptops or even iPad Pros?

01:38:29   - I'm not sure I would assume that it's definitely coming to regular consumer iPads. I mean,

01:38:36   setting up the education environment is presumably a big provisioning thing. I would imagine

01:38:42   this is the kind of thing that, it does look like it's very useful for education, but I'm

01:38:46   I'm not really sure Apple cares enough

01:38:49   about enabling multi-user iPads for in people's houses.

01:38:53   'Cause right now, the way it's solved is,

01:38:55   either it's not solved and you just stay logged in

01:38:58   as one person and everyone just ruins all your high scores,

01:39:00   or people get different iPads for different people.

01:39:03   And that's presumably what Apple wants.

01:39:05   Apple wants everyone to have their own iPad.

01:39:07   I'm not sure, 'cause if you think about what's involved

01:39:09   in this in a home environment,

01:39:12   without the central management of what the school's doing,

01:39:15   In a home environment, what's involved here is things that are really messy in iOS today,

01:39:21   such as having multiple iTunes Store accounts logged in with the same device, apps from

01:39:26   different people installed or from different accounts installed.

01:39:28   Yeah, but that's all been solved in OS X.

01:39:31   It's the same underpinnings.

01:39:33   It's a multi-user system.

01:39:34   You have separate directories and accounts and sandboxes, and yeah, you can have two people

01:39:40   logged in to different Apple IDs and different accounts into the store.

01:39:44   seems like this is all there's no tech reason there's very little UI reason the

01:39:48   only reason it hasn't been done so far is because it's not really an important

01:39:51   feature but it's one of those ones that I feel like they're gonna get around to

01:39:53   eventually and I don't think anyone has ever not purchased another iPad because

01:39:59   their current one like they would say well we were going to get another iPad

01:40:01   but this one has multiple users no kids will still complain even with multiple

01:40:05   users like forget it like no if you can afford it you buy one if you can afford

01:40:09   it you want it you buy one if you can't afford it and don't want it you don't

01:40:11   buy one. All this is going to do is make lives a little bit better for people who don't want

01:40:17   to buy another iPad and do want their kids to share it and are sick of hearing people

01:40:21   complain about it that he broke my Minecraft castles or he messed with my high scores or

01:40:26   deleted the app that I want or read my texts or whatever complaints people are going to

01:40:31   have. I just think it has to come. Not anytime soon, I'm not saying it's even this year or

01:40:37   next year, but, you know, eventually there's going to be iOS version 13 and they're going

01:40:42   to need features for it and this is going to be one of them.

01:40:45   >> Maybe, but it's the kind of thing where like the amount of work it takes to have like,

01:40:52   you know, to separate out like all the iCloud and App Store stuff with multiple logins and

01:40:57   iOS, like the amount of work that's going to take--

01:40:59   >> But isn't that already done? Don't you think it's already done? Like aren't we essentially

01:41:04   using a multi-user system that just has one user on it?

01:41:07   - Well, it's done at the level of the Unix user level, sure,

01:41:11   but I don't think it's done at the services

01:41:15   integrations level.

01:41:17   I don't think--

01:41:17   - Yep, but why wouldn't it be done at that level?

01:41:19   Because those same demons are running on OS X.

01:41:23   - Well, first of all, it doesn't work that great

01:41:24   on OS X a lot of times, but it's a very different

01:41:26   environment, but keep in mind on iOS,

01:41:28   this is also the part of iOS that not only relies

01:41:32   on that big, messy store and iCloud backend

01:41:36   that's really hard to get anything out of,

01:41:37   but also, this seems to be the buggiest part of iOS,

01:41:41   is like the part that manages your account logins

01:41:43   to these backends.

01:41:45   That is, it is so always fraught with minor bugs

01:41:50   that pop up at the dialogs for you

01:41:51   to log in all the time and everything.

01:41:53   - Yeah, like you said, it does it on the Mac too, but.

01:41:55   - Yeah, and that part of iOS is a mess,

01:41:58   and it's probably a mess for a good reason.

01:42:00   it's probably a mess because it would be so much work

01:42:04   to fix it that they just will never get around

01:42:07   to improving it, like I don't even have a timescale.

01:42:10   I'm exactly what you're saying, never, but like--

01:42:11   - But why is it a mess on the Mac?

01:42:14   It just seems like what I would expect

01:42:15   for them to implement the multi-user feature,

01:42:17   there may be some things where they cut corners

01:42:19   where they'd have to go back in and fix stuff,

01:42:21   but for the most part, what you'd end up with

01:42:22   is with two separate messes.

01:42:24   You'd have multiple users, both of which would experience

01:42:26   the weather that we talked about on the past show

01:42:28   where sometimes it keeps asking you for your password,

01:42:29   And they would both experience that.

01:42:31   They would both get their own little private experience

01:42:33   of those bugs.

01:42:34   But I don't see that as an impediment

01:42:36   to them both having their own private experience

01:42:38   of those bugs.

01:42:39   - I think you're making very bold assumptions

01:42:43   that, like Marco said, the Unix underpinnings of iOS

01:42:47   have ridden all the way to the user-facing portions of iOS.

01:42:51   If I were Apple and I was writing iOS code way back when,

01:42:55   when it wasn't even a thought

01:42:57   that there would be multiple users,

01:42:59   You bet I would probably be taking shortcuts

01:43:01   to try to get things out the door quickly

01:43:03   that assume that there will only ever be one user

01:43:06   to any of these systems.

01:43:07   I really think that Marco is right.

01:43:11   It's gonna be a long time before we see this.

01:43:13   - No, but it's here, so I agree with that,

01:43:15   that they did take those shortcuts.

01:43:17   iOS 1.0 or iPhone OS, the original iPhone OS,

01:43:20   all it was was just a massive collection of shortcuts.

01:43:22   It had to be to even get things to work.

01:43:24   But this feature in iOS 9.3

01:43:27   shows that they've actually done the work already.

01:43:29   And it's only a question,

01:43:30   like they had to have done the work

01:43:31   because hey, look, multiple users.

01:43:32   And yeah, it's for enterprise and classroom

01:43:34   and server and cloud,

01:43:35   and it's aimed at a different user base or whatever,

01:43:37   but they had to have done that work.

01:43:39   They had to have gotten through everything

01:43:40   and said, "Find all those places where we cut corners

01:43:42   'cause this thing isn't gonna work at all

01:43:44   if when one student logs in,

01:43:45   it sees the other person's stuff,

01:43:46   or if they can't log in to the..."

01:43:48   They're doing that, it is being done.

01:43:50   And so once that's done, it's only a matter of time

01:43:53   where they decide to eventually get around

01:43:56   giving you the version of this that's not just for classrooms?

01:43:59   Well, it's done to some degree. I mean, none of us know. We should ask Fraser Spears. None

01:44:04   of us know to what degree this is done. What is kept per user? What isn't? But is it down

01:44:13   to the iCloud account level? Does every kid have their own iCloud account or just their

01:44:17   own files? I don't know. I would guess it is done to a fairly shallow level. I would

01:44:23   not expect this to be an easy way to just say, "Oh, well, just take this and just enable

01:44:28   it for everybody."

01:44:29   I don't think it's going to be that simple.

01:44:30   I just had a sad thought, which is their multi-user switching could basically be erase everything

01:44:36   about the previous user and go through a really fast first setup process.

01:44:39   Like, in other words, there's only ever one user, and switching involves deleting the

01:44:44   user that was there and putting in another user.

01:44:46   So it really is single user all the time, and all they do is delete everything having

01:44:49   to do with one user, really.

01:44:50   I hope they didn't implant it that way, but that would probably work.

01:44:52   I think Fraser said that might be actually how it is done.

01:44:55   He was saying like if there's not a room for your stuff, the idea is that it'll take your

01:44:59   stuff and put it in iCloud, which makes sense because it's like if you switch accounts to

01:45:02   somebody who has more stuff than can fit on the current iPad, you have to purge the old

01:45:06   person's stuff, especially with a classroom because the iPad in a classroom doesn't have

01:45:11   three users. It can have like 15 or 20. And so you can't fit 15 or 20 people's stuff on there.

01:45:16   So as you change users, eventually someone's stuff's got to get purged. But I'm thinking

01:45:20   of like the scenario where every time you switch user it says, "There used to be another

01:45:24   user of this iPad, but forget they ever existed. Delete all their stuff, push it up to the

01:45:28   cloud, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and create a new user." And it's only ever a single user

01:45:34   iPad. As far as the iPad is concerned, there's only ever been one user. It just changes periodically.

01:45:38   And that would be depressing, and that would be a way to implement this as a shortcut,

01:45:41   but I really hope they didn't do that.

01:45:42   No, and honestly, I do think that in this day and age, you know, it makes sense to do

01:45:47   this in classrooms where you might have a bunch of devices like stationary installed

01:45:53   in a classroom like in a lab or something like that or you have to share them between

01:45:57   people because you don't have enough.

01:45:59   That probably happens a lot in education.

01:46:00   I think in this day and age, I don't think we really need to be that concerned with multi-user

01:46:06   use of today's iPads, iPhones, and laptops.

01:46:11   Like desktops, maybe.

01:46:13   laptops like most people I would love to have data on like what percentage of Macs out there

01:46:21   have more than one user account that ever get used.

01:46:23   - You wait till Adam gets older and he wants to use your computer and suddenly you'll be

01:46:27   thankful that you can give him his own account.

01:46:29   - I'll just buy cases on my Mac at that point and give him that.

01:46:32   - You'll just buy him his own computer right yeah you're gonna put a computer in your seven

01:46:37   year olds room and then come back and scrape the peanut butter off the screen periodically.

01:46:40   That's what I do on iPads now.

01:46:42   Well, not in this room, but yeah, I have to clean the peanut butter off of my iPad Air

01:46:46   2 now, whenever he uses it.

01:46:49   Anyway, multiple accounts I think is a good idea.

01:46:53   I don't think it's going away.

01:46:54   And whether you think it's important for iPhones and iPads as they exist now, as the iPad Pro

01:46:59   continues to develop in that direction, as it becomes a more viable desktop and laptop

01:47:04   replacement, I think it's inevitable.

01:47:06   I concede that I may be overestimating the sophistication of this multi-user implementation.

01:47:11   There may be a massive amount of work to be done.

01:47:13   I still think it will happen, but let's just push the timeline out a few more years.

01:47:16   All right, we good?

01:47:18   All right, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Fracture, Blue Apron, and Hover.

01:47:24   And we will see you next week.

01:47:26   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

01:47:36   Oh it was accidental.

01:47:39   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:47:44   Cause it was accidental.

01:47:47   Oh it was accidental.

01:47:50   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

01:47:55   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:48:04   That's Casey Liszt, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:48:08   Anti-Marco Arman, S-I-R-A-C

01:48:13   USA, Syracuse, it's accidental

01:48:17   Accidental

01:48:19   They didn't mean to

01:48:21   Accidental

01:48:23   Accidental

01:48:24   Tech podcast so long

01:48:29   I'm tired.

01:48:30   You're probably looking at too many blue screens.

01:48:32   Yeah, probably.

01:48:33   I feel like the last couple episodes have been pretty good.

01:48:35   We can't put that in the show because that's too self-congratulatory.

01:48:38   That's like saying, "It's going to be a short show."

01:48:41   Yeah, really.

01:48:42   It's true.

01:48:43   Yeah, well, we had all this follow-up.

01:48:45   Follow-up is back.

01:48:46   Follow-up was back with a vengeance today.

01:48:48   That's true.

01:48:49   Well, the Plex one was really a topic.

01:48:51   That was just like, "More about Plex."

01:48:52   Well, I mean, both of you have lots of difficulties with the concept of follow-up in the format.

01:48:58   Why?

01:49:00   Please educate us.

01:49:02   Casey's Tale of Woe, like it's just like, well, we usually start with follow-up, but

01:49:05   instead we're going to start with this other thing, which is properly a topic.

01:49:08   And then Plex and the Infuse app.

01:49:10   The Infuse app is a follow-up item.

01:49:12   Let's talk about the Infuse app that people recommended.

01:49:13   Here's how it worked for us, blah, blah, blah.

01:49:15   But then the spinning off into hair is what you, you know, my complaints about Plex.

01:49:20   I'm guilty, too, because you would lead me into it.

01:49:21   Oh, yeah, it's all our fault.

01:49:23   How you use Plex and your guide to Plex and what you've heard.

01:49:26   Like Plex is a topic.

01:49:28   Your Tale of Woe was a topic.

01:49:29   The follow-up item, you could have cleared this infuse item

01:49:31   in like two and a half minutes

01:49:33   if we had just hit the bullet points.

01:49:34   Anyway, we survive, the show survives, we soldier on.

01:49:38   - I was actually thinking as we were,

01:49:40   I noticed as we were talking about Casey's iMac

01:49:42   for 40 minutes before we even began follow-up,

01:49:45   I thought, you know, this is actually a better format.

01:49:48   I kinda like having the follow-up after topic one.

01:49:51   'Cause it gives you a chance to get into the show

01:49:53   with something new first.

01:49:56   - No, it doesn't. (laughing)

01:49:58   - Cryologically speaking, you hear the previous show

01:50:00   and you're angry because they got a bunch of stuff wrong.

01:50:02   When the next episode starts, you wanna hear immediately

01:50:05   that Casey knows that he got the C# thing wrong.

01:50:08   - Eh, I don't know.

01:50:09   I put the tale of woe first

01:50:11   because I thought it was more dramatic that way,

01:50:14   but I did kinda like having a little something,

01:50:18   a little appetizer before the follow-up.

01:50:20   - But you always do that, yeah.

01:50:21   I mean, you always, that's the format of this show,

01:50:23   is one of you has something to say

01:50:25   before we begin the follow-up,

01:50:26   and how long the thing is is fine,

01:50:27   This was in an hour.

01:50:31   This was my time to shine, Jon.

01:50:32   Don't take it away from me.

01:50:34   It's your time to cry about your poor iMac.

01:50:36   How about that case, the box, though?

01:50:39   The little trapezoidy box thing?

01:50:40   Yeah, very weird.

01:50:41   I liked it, but very weird.

01:50:43   Although, I tell you what, putting that junk back into the styrofoam, what a disaster.

01:50:47   Mostly because I'm an idiot when it came to that, but...

01:50:50   Really?

01:50:51   I found it very easy to repack an iMac.

01:50:52   Yeah, I found it pretty easy, too.

01:50:54   You just need practice.

01:50:55   Yeah, well, I've never had to deal with it before.

01:50:57   I've had to bring my Thunderbolt display back to the Apple Store many times, so I have lots

01:51:00   of practice with it.

01:51:01   With that size and shape.

01:51:02   Yeah, yeah.

01:51:03   Yeah, no, I've just never done it before with something that shape.

01:51:07   I mean, the last time I've had a desktop, it was a tower, which is a big rectangle,

01:51:11   so it was very different for me.

01:51:13   I don't quite understand the, like, aesthetically I understand the box, but usually the things

01:51:18   Apple does with boxes are about fitting more in a shipping container, you know, basically

01:51:21   like in less environmental waste, more things,

01:51:24   more product and less volume, right?

01:51:27   But I really don't think they're packing these things up

01:51:30   like top bottom, top bottom, top bottom

01:51:33   to try to get space savings.

01:51:34   So all I see is that that wedge they've cut out of it

01:51:36   is just empty space in the shipping containers

01:51:38   when they ship these.

01:51:39   And you can only stack them on the way now.

01:51:41   Anyway, it seems like it's just an aesthetic thing,

01:51:44   which I can buy, but if there's some shipping related reason

01:51:48   why they want that taper, I'd love to hear it.

01:51:51   Why would you wouldn't stack them like one right side up the next right upside down?

01:51:55   No, no

01:51:55   I don't I don't think they do that like I would imagine that they're not meant to be shipped upside down right side up upside

01:52:00   Down rise it up. It seems I think they're I bet they are I bet they

01:52:03   I think so because like like what do you think they fill the gaps with like a whole bunch of mighty mice like

01:52:08   Just tosses fill the little triangles plus that's what I'm saying

01:52:12   Like it just it just seemed like the apps the apps would be air

01:52:15   I would imagine that these things ship only in one orientation for just for like the security of like

01:52:21   Bouncing around and cargo containers, but maybe they do ship fine upside down and they do alternate

01:52:25   The chat room is very upset because you are very wrong John. Oh, they've wrong

01:52:30   They don't do upside down right set up. You are wrong in saying that they are all right set up

01:52:34   They are they are wedged in one right side up one upside down as as Marco and I suspected. Yeah

01:52:40   I don't know. I just thought they wouldn't do that. I thought they like that shipping them upside down would be bad

01:52:44   You know, the whole thing with the side up arrows on boxes that no one pays attention

01:52:48   to.

01:52:49   I still see them on boxes that come to my house, usually not facing up anymore.

01:52:53   Well, imagine how bad it would be, though.

01:52:57   However Apple ships them, that's definitely not how UPS and FedEx are going to ship them.

01:53:01   So imagine if you designed a computer and a shipping method of that computer such that

01:53:06   it had to be kept a certain way up.

01:53:08   Otherwise it would just break.

01:53:09   Well, it doesn't have to be.

01:53:10   It's just like that's the best orientation.

01:53:12   It's the most secure.

01:53:13   So when Apple controls the shipment, it's like that, but in the last mile, it's all

01:53:16   over the place.

01:53:17   Because they still double box it, though, right?

01:53:18   Yes, it's double—but the outer box is also that same shape.

01:53:21   Yeah.

01:53:22   Yep.

01:53:23   The real reason for this, of course, is to make the giant wheel of IMAX that those guys

01:53:26   made.

01:53:27   If you just put them together, not alternating, eventually you get a big wheel that you can

01:53:33   stand in and run around.

01:53:34   Oh, that's awesome.

01:53:35   And out on the quad in their, what I assume is their college, because this is where people

01:53:38   have, A, this many IMAX and, B, this much free time.

01:53:41   Yeah.

01:53:42   I think the key thing that they did either right or wrong,

01:53:46   depending on your look at it, is they used empty boxes.

01:53:48   And so they were held together with clear packing tape

01:53:52   and everything.

01:53:52   And eventually, the packing tape and the boxes themselves,

01:53:55   structural and trigonometric-- if you

01:53:56   put an iMac in each one of those things,

01:53:58   that would have had some serious momentum

01:54:00   if you could have ever got it moving.

01:54:01   Yeah, it would have been very heavy.

01:54:02   That'd be a very expensive wheel.

01:54:04   (laughing)

01:54:06   (beep)