146: Control + Money + Smallness


00:00:00   You're always sick. Here's how I know that I'm going to be sick Adam is in school and it's the winter

00:00:06   Therefore we are sick

00:00:09   How do you pronounce this person's name you both know this person right Andreas

00:00:13   Netsman was one of the many people who were going to tell us that apparently IMAX no longer have IR sensors since around 2012. So

00:00:20   the people suggesting that perhaps my

00:00:23   Shiny new 5k iMac was getting woken from sleep by our apparently that's not happening because there is no sensor

00:00:28   So that's kind of good to know in other words this ancient history is that

00:00:32   IMAX have not had IR sensors since four years after your Mac Pro was made that you're still using every day

00:00:39   Still working just fine. I'm wondering at this point

00:00:42   I'm wondering if I can make it ten years, but I don't know I don't want to Apple

00:00:45   Just make an external 5k display for crying out loud

00:00:47   You'll make it

00:00:50   We'll see cuz they're they're not gonna make the computer you want ever and so you're gonna keep holding on sure they will

00:00:56   I just need an external 5k display and a computer that can drive it and they're not gonna make the display with no computer that

00:01:01   You can drive it and they're not gonna make a computer that can drive it with no display

00:01:03   So it'll happen the computer that drives it is gonna not have the right kind of gaming card for you and configure

00:01:09   It's gonna be way too expensive. No, it's not gonna be the right right time, but it will be acceptable

00:01:14   It will be way faster than everything else. I have including the one that's built into the iMac goodness

00:01:19   Did I tell you guys that?

00:01:21   So I'm working out of a client's office for the last month or so and will be for a while.

00:01:26   You know, as working for a client goes, it's pretty good.

00:01:30   But it's still kind of weird doing the staff-og thing, which is not what I'm used to doing.

00:01:36   But anyway.

00:01:37   Wait, wait, wait.

00:01:38   The what?

00:01:39   The staff-og thing?

00:01:40   What does that mean?

00:01:41   John?

00:01:42   I have no idea.

00:01:43   Really?

00:01:44   This is the consultant language you're speaking now.

00:01:45   I never did consulting.

00:01:46   Is this a Virginia thing?

00:01:47   No, no, no.

00:01:48   It's not a Virginia thing.

00:01:49   It's a consulting thing.

00:01:50   augmentations. So generally speaking, the work I do...

00:01:53   Oh, I would have got that if you had pronounced it like a New Yorker. I was like, "Staff-Og?"

00:01:57   Is it like "Og-vorbis?"

00:01:58   Yeah, I thought "O-gee."

00:02:00   Yeah, but you're hanging out with Tiff enough, you should know it's "Staff-Og."

00:02:02   It was "Staff-Og." What, you were doing "Staff-Og?"

00:02:05   [laughs]

00:02:07   Fair enough. So, "Staff-Og."

00:02:09   My clock is ticking like this. You know, just as a random guess here, I'm guessing that nobody

00:02:15   who has a New York accent thick enough to notice like that would ever say "Staff-Og." Like, just

00:02:20   just the phrase, would never use that phrase.

00:02:22   - They'd say it.

00:02:23   - There's no overlap between the population

00:02:24   who would say that phrase

00:02:25   and people who would have that accent.

00:02:27   - No, people are, there are consultants on Long Island too.

00:02:30   - Mm-hmm.

00:02:31   - I got no more use for this guy.

00:02:32   - So anyway, so I'm doing staff org,

00:02:34   and basically what that means is

00:02:37   rather than having a group of my coworkers

00:02:39   that is working to build a project as a group,

00:02:44   often in concert with the client,

00:02:46   we prefer to do it in concert with the client,

00:02:47   but it's a group of us.

00:02:49   This, by comparison, is basically I get kicked in the butt over to a client's office and

00:02:55   said, "Come back in a few months when the client doesn't want to pay for your time anymore."

00:02:59   And so I'm all by myself.

00:03:00   But anyway, the reason I actually bring this up is I got issued that god-awful Dell that

00:03:05   I had tweeted a picture of the god-awful keyboard, and I got to tell you, the trackpad is unusable.

00:03:10   I fiddled with the settings to kingdom come.

00:03:12   The trackpad is unusable.

00:03:13   I don't know how anyone uses a Dell.

00:03:15   But anyway, I look around me,

00:03:18   and you know what I see all over this office?

00:03:20   Cinema displays, everywhere, drives me insane.

00:03:24   I want one so badly, even though I know

00:03:25   there's much better displays to be had,

00:03:27   but I've always just thought they were so pretty

00:03:28   and beautiful and they have like a quasi-docking station

00:03:31   and I want one so bad and they're everywhere.

00:03:34   Makes me sad, you guys.

00:03:37   - Just think, if you had one,

00:03:38   you could plug in all of your Firewire 400 devices.

00:03:41   - I know, right?

00:03:42   It would be delightful.

00:03:43   No, I am jealous of it.

00:03:44   I'd love to have the ethernet hanging off there,

00:03:48   my mic set up at home hanging off of there.

00:03:52   A man can dream.

00:03:53   But yeah, so here I am using my Dell

00:03:55   with all of these cinema displays and MacBook Pros

00:03:57   and MacBook Airs all around me.

00:03:59   - You feel like a real consultant then, right?

00:04:02   - If only you had two or three Mac laptops

00:04:04   that you could bring one to your client's side.

00:04:07   - Well, and that's what I do.

00:04:08   I bring my work laptop so I can get work email

00:04:11   and talk on work IM, et cetera, et cetera.

00:04:13   But it's depressing.

00:04:15   It's sad.

00:04:16   Well, it would be more depressing if you really were tied to the idea of listening to your

00:04:21   headphones on your iPhone while you were working and charging it at the same time, which might

00:04:26   not be possible next year.

00:04:27   Oh, you're jumping ahead.

00:04:29   You're jumping ahead.

00:04:30   All right, we have more follow-up, though.

00:04:32   I derailed us and then you tried to move the train forward.

00:04:34   Let's get back on the tracks.

00:04:35   Yes, yes.

00:04:36   There's not too much follow-up, so derail is fine there.

00:04:40   This is from Sebastian Kraus, Kraus?

00:04:43   Lots of German names today.

00:04:45   Uh, trying to tell us about a little bit of the history behind MDNS Responder and DiscoveryD

00:04:51   and all that stuff.

00:04:53   This story is told in a video that is in German, so we're getting this translated for us, so

00:04:57   we'll put a link to the video in the show notes.

00:04:59   If you understand German you can watch it, but anyway, we're taking this person's word

00:05:01   for it in the translation.

00:05:03   Apparently the story is about Vint Cerf, the father of the internet.

00:05:06   You can read his Wikipedia page if you want to learn all about him and DARPA and TCP/IP

00:05:11   and all that good stuff.

00:05:12   Anyway, he was at an IETF meeting, Internet Engineering Task Force meeting, and it was

00:05:16   fed up that his printer wasn't working anymore, so he called up Tim Cook, which is a thing

00:05:20   you can do when you're in surf apparently and you're pissed off about your printer not

00:05:23   working, and Tim Cook then talked to Stuart Cheshire, who's the guy who invented Bonjour,

00:05:27   formerly known as Rendezvous and a bunch of other Apple networking stuff, and told him

00:05:31   to investigate, and eventually they're the ones who supposedly came up with the idea

00:05:36   of "let's just take out a discovery D and put in a DNS responder and see if that fixes

00:05:40   the problem."

00:05:41   So this is the possibly apocryphal story of one possible contributing factor to why did

00:05:47   Apple—what did it take for Apple to take action and actually fix this problem once

00:05:53   and for all?

00:05:54   And this story—I always find stories like this depressing if there's even any bit of

00:05:57   truth to them is like, "Well, Apple didn't care until Vint Cerf called Tim Cook." And

00:06:02   that's how the message actually got to the top that there was a problem. I really don't

00:06:05   like to believe that those things are true, but it does make for a funny story.

00:06:08   Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's plausible. Based on Apple's apparent reaction to, you

00:06:15   know, "All of a sudden there's a problem and Apple knows about it suddenly, but we've

00:06:19   all known about it for years," it kind of does seem like whatever system is supposed

00:06:23   to inform the high-ups about these problems

00:06:27   that a lot of people face is falling over

00:06:29   somewhere along the way.

00:06:30   Like that system, the high-ups are measuring something

00:06:35   and they're getting data from something,

00:06:37   but it doesn't seem like most of the actual problems

00:06:41   and actual criticism is reaching them,

00:06:43   and that's a little bit scary.

00:06:45   - Big companies are all like that to some degree.

00:06:46   It's just that it's the fantasy scenario

00:06:49   that you have as a child that follows many people

00:06:52   to adulthood that like somewhere in the world there are the grown-up people who know what

00:06:58   they're doing and like when you become an adult most people think you realize oh that's

00:07:01   not actually the case now I'm an adult and I realize no one knows what they're doing

00:07:04   right but we hold on to a little bit of that especially for the things that we admire like

00:07:09   okay my company doesn't know what it's doing the the higher-ups in my company have no clue

00:07:14   and my company is dysfunctional but surely the you know richest company in the world

00:07:19   the most successful technology company in the world got that way because they're better

00:07:22   than my crappy company. So even though I understand that yes, no one knows what they're doing

00:07:25   and there's no people somewhere who are like in charge and actually understand things,

00:07:30   surely Apple is at least a little bit different. But I mean Apple is a big company just like

00:07:34   any other big company and it's really difficult to organize a big company in a way that doesn't

00:07:40   incentivize people in management layers below the top to hide bad news from the people about

00:07:45   them because they get rated and judged by how well they're doing and like it's

00:07:52   it's it's everyone's best interest to some degree to not fully to not convey

00:07:58   that losslessly up the management chain right and so that's why I like that the

00:08:02   Sebastian who wrote in is basically described this as a fix from the top

00:08:06   down where you would hope that there's lots of other people talking to lots of

00:08:10   other customers and stuff about problems and doing you know the leaf nodes of the

00:08:13   org chart, doing all sorts of things involving customers, gathering information, so on and

00:08:18   so forth.

00:08:19   But that information has to go up, up, up the chain.

00:08:21   And the more levels it has to go through, the more likely it is to be toned down or

00:08:25   re-prioritized or whatever, until by the time it gets to the top, something that is a real

00:08:32   problem for most end users that the leaf nodes know about by the time it gets to the top

00:08:37   doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

00:08:38   So it has to come, you know.

00:08:40   And the other thing is just human nature.

00:08:41   people at the top. Maybe Vint Cerf was not annoyed by Discovery, did he say he was annoyed

00:08:45   by some other thing that just happened to annoy him? That might have gotten fixed, and

00:08:50   that just would have been Vint Cerf's problem. So he would have bypassed the entire organization

00:08:53   to get a thing that isn't a problem for most other people fixed, and he would be happy,

00:08:57   and so in some respects the organization is working to try to prioritize things to tell

00:09:01   Tim Cook what's really important. In this case it just so happened that the top-down,

00:09:06   you know, celebrity-based fixing also happened to hit on the thing that was a problem for

00:09:11   a lot of other people. So, I don't know. Anyway, companies are messed up.

00:09:15   Good talk.

00:09:16   Well, you know, like, I mean, Casey, since Marco has a little bit experience with big

00:09:20   companies, I think Casey having worked in or consulted for big companies at the very

00:09:23   least, have you seen some of this going on where the lower you get in the org chart,

00:09:27   the more people really know what's going on?

00:09:29   Oh, God, yes. And not at the company I'm consulting with now, but I think we talked about it on

00:09:34   the show like two years ago, but there was a large firm in Richmond that I did some consulting

00:09:40   for. And it was abundantly obvious to me that most of the organization was mental management

00:09:48   and most of the organization, really all these mental managers, really knew deep down that

00:09:54   they were all redundant. And so every meeting you were in, everyone wanted to be included

00:10:00   and everyone wanted to say something really, really interesting. So everyone around them

00:10:05   knew, "Oh, Susie isn't expendable because Susie just said something smart." Bob, he's

00:10:13   expendable because he didn't really say anything this meeting, and it was just ridiculous because

00:10:18   it was a billion middle managers and like seven actual grunts who actually got work

00:10:22   done. You're absolutely right.

00:10:24   The Tips in the Chat Room points out the story about John Mayer, the musician, famously emailing

00:10:29   bugs in logic directly to Steve Jobs. And then they got fixed. You get an email, the

00:10:35   logic team would get an email that says, "Fix this, Steve." And that's like the worst way

00:10:40   to do this, by the way. To have a famous person go to the very top of your organization and

00:10:45   have the person at the top of your organization highly motivated to satisfy the famous person.

00:10:50   Because sometimes the famous person will find a legit bug that everyone has experienced.

00:10:53   But a lot of the time, the famous person will just be annoyed by some minor issue. And why

00:10:57   Why do they get this special treatment?

00:10:59   They may be reshaping the application in a bad way for most people just to satisfy John

00:11:05   Mayer.

00:11:06   So this is not a scalable system.

00:11:07   I'm not saying the way it works now with the leaf node's message not getting up as bad

00:11:11   and this is better.

00:11:13   Really you don't want either one of those things.

00:11:15   You want an efficient organization that correctly communicates what's really happening to your

00:11:20   customers and how they really feel about your product up the management chain without diluting

00:11:23   it in a way to protect the reputation of your group or whatever it is that you're doing

00:11:27   as a manager to try to say, "Well, this wasn't our fault and this isn't that big of a problem

00:11:32   and everything we made in this last release is going really well, so give me a good rating

00:11:36   and a big bonus this year."

00:11:38   Our first sponsor this week is Cards Against Humanity.

00:11:42   And rather than a regular sponsor read, they asked Jon to review one last toaster.

00:11:47   [Music]

00:11:58   So remember when I said I found that toaster in my garage? I didn't realize I

00:12:02   had that the monstrosity with like the big griddle on top of it? Yeah. And all

00:12:07   that other stuff. Since I didn't realize I had that toaster at some point during

00:12:10   the year, you had asked the question that we always ask is like, "Do you have a

00:12:14   toaster for this week?" And I'd be like, "No, I don't have a toaster." And then they

00:12:16   would rush one out to me and I would get a toaster.

00:12:19   And so basically somewhere their account got off.

00:12:21   So a toaster arrived for this week, but I already had toasters.

00:12:24   So now I have two toasters for this week, and there's no sense in saving one of them

00:12:27   because this is the last week, so this is going to be a double toaster review.

00:12:30   Yes!

00:12:31   This is exciting.

00:12:32   Lucky, lucky you.

00:12:34   The first toaster is the Americana Collection 3-in-1 Mini Breakfast Shop, shop with two

00:12:39   two P's and an E. This is model EBK-200BL. And if you look at it, it looks a lot like

00:12:47   the crazy one from the last time. The red thing, it's got, it's like a toaster oven.

00:12:53   It's got a little tiny coffee pot, drip coffee pot thing. And on top of the toaster, it's

00:12:58   got a little thing that gets hot where you can in theory cook some eggs or something.

00:13:02   Right. The last one, remember I said that the coffee thing, even though the picture,

00:13:06   picturing it like it's a regular drip coffee thing, really it's like tiny and

00:13:10   doll-sized. This one my daughter actually said in the kitchen, she walked up and

00:13:13   said "that looks like it's for a doll!" This thing is microscopic. It is

00:13:17   incredibly, incredibly small. Obviously the coffee thing is tiny but then look at

00:13:21   the toaster part. I mean I guess you could look at the measurements and try

00:13:23   to get an idea for it but here's the best way I can describe it to our

00:13:26   audience. The tray that slides inside the toaster is smaller than the Magic Track

00:13:30   Pad 2. Can you even fit one piece of bread on there? You can fit one piece of

00:13:36   bread in there if it's not too big. So you can't do two. Wow. Yeah. So this is very similar to the

00:13:42   old one. I didn't know there was such a market for these three-in-one things. So similar, like,

00:13:45   so the coffee thing looks like it might even be using some of the same parts. That one still does

00:13:49   its job. You can put water in there, it heats it up pretty quickly, it drips through the filter

00:13:53   into the thing. If you like drip coffee, this is, you know, this is a drip coffee thing. It doesn't

00:13:57   take too long to boil the water. It's got the same type of thing where the top dial decides

00:14:01   what heating elements will be on, and the bottom one is just a plain timer. They don't even bother

00:14:05   there were little pictures of light medium and dark toasted. It's like, look, it's just a timer. Just turn it. Good luck.

00:14:10   It'll give you any guidance there.

00:14:13   And it's good thing they don't give you any guidance because

00:14:15   trying to toast a piece of toast in there, at around five minutes and 50 seconds

00:14:20   I gave up not being able to see any real color on the top of the toast and I took it out and the bottom

00:14:25   was overdone, practically black in the middle, like uneven.

00:14:28   And the top had no color on it at all. And that's after almost six minutes.

00:14:32   So as a toaster it fails to tow even though you only put one piece of bread in there it fails to toast it

00:14:36   There is no adjustable rack by the way

00:14:38   So I was saying maybe why is it burning on the bottom and not cooked on the top?

00:14:40   Maybe I can move the rack up but the rack doesn't adjust

00:14:42   The top thing instead of having a full-size griddle. It has a little circular tin same problem as before

00:14:48   It just doesn't it doesn't get hot enough or doesn't like I think the real problem is doesn't have enough thermal mass

00:14:52   Like it's it's just a thin piece of metal

00:14:54   So that when you put the egg on it

00:14:56   It just sucks all the heat out of the thing and the heating elements don't have enough to like keep up like I think basically

00:15:01   the griddle acts as a heat sink for the heating elements, dissipating their heat but not into the

00:15:06   egg. So I was able to cook, and you can really only put one egg in there, like it's practically

00:15:10   the size of a poached egg thing, all right? So I was able to cook one fried egg, and I have to say

00:15:14   it did a better job than the previous one, and at least that one egg, I was able to cook it,

00:15:18   and it came out as like an actual egg, like it cooked enough to stay together and let me flip

00:15:23   it over and everything. But really, nobody should ever buy this or the other thing. It's not good at

00:15:31   anything that it does, please just do not. It is adorable though. As it's been sitting

00:15:35   in the kitchen, this one even more than the red one, it looks adorable. It looks like

00:15:39   doll furniture. It looks like you have an Easy Bake Oven on your counter. It looks like

00:15:41   one of your kids' toys is in there, but it really works, sort of.

00:15:44   Well, yeah, to varying degrees of work. I wish you could try the coffee.

00:15:48   It's just a drip cup. It's like you've got a filter in there, comes with a filter, it

00:15:52   makes the water hot, it runs it through the filter, drips into the little thing. I don't

00:15:56   see how the machine itself could affect the quality of the coffee coming out of it, because

00:16:00   It really is the most primitive thing you can imagine.

00:16:02   It's all just plastic parts inside there.

00:16:03   There's nothing fancy.

00:16:04   It is not, I mean, look at the price.

00:16:07   What is this?

00:16:08   This is like--

00:16:09   - $35.

00:16:10   - Yeah, $35.

00:16:11   So you've gotten what you're paying for there.

00:16:12   So I think the main market for this would be Hollywood prop buyers who want to put something

00:16:16   in the background of a scene, seen in like a cute kitchen apartment in like Manhattan

00:16:21   or something.

00:16:22   'Cause it's cute.

00:16:23   - And I really do wonder, like obviously there's a market for these because so many are for

00:16:28   sale.

00:16:29   But I just have to wonder, who is buying them?

00:16:31   - Suckers, like people who think, isn't that great?

00:16:33   It's a great way to save counter space.

00:16:36   I have three things all in one place.

00:16:37   And again, the same problems, like who wants to cook

00:16:39   on top of your toaster oven?

00:16:40   Your toaster ovens are usually underneath,

00:16:41   like there are overhead cabinets above it,

00:16:43   and then you're making hot steam go into the bottom

00:16:45   of your cabinets, it's just not a good idea.

00:16:46   Even if it worked, it wouldn't be a good idea.

00:16:48   And it just does, like seriously,

00:16:50   can't even toast one slice of bread in six minutes.

00:16:52   Forget it.

00:16:53   - The best thing is, this has a four-star average review

00:16:56   on Amazon with 240 reviews.

00:16:59   - How?

00:16:59   - It has to be paid for.

00:17:01   Maybe they just don't know

00:17:01   how these things are supposed to operate.

00:17:03   - Everything's smaller than expected,

00:17:05   but works as promised.

00:17:06   Verified purchase.

00:17:08   The toast-driven was probably the biggest negative.

00:17:10   It is only wide enough to fit one slice of break.

00:17:13   (laughing)

00:17:16   - That is true.

00:17:17   And it won't toast it after six minutes.

00:17:19   - Fortunately, there is a top burner and a bottom burner,

00:17:22   so you can stack two pieces of bread on top of each other

00:17:25   and flip them in the middle of cooking.

00:17:26   - Oh my God.

00:17:27   No, no you can please

00:17:29   Why not just like hold your bread over a match

00:17:33   And just move it around

00:17:36   It's cool

00:17:37   I can actually take this with me when I'm on the road to set up in the hotels I stay in

00:17:42   The things like the drip coffee maker they have in hotels is better than this

00:17:45   Yeah

00:17:46   like and those are terrible and that would be better than this yeah because at least it's like sturdy and doesn't fall apart because that

00:17:51   You have to to be in a hotel room and hold tomorrow coffee

00:17:53   Wow, all right anyway the second one let's let's try to you know bring this back from the insanity of these multi-function device

00:18:00   Second one is just a legit toaster oven. This is the KitchenAid 12 inch convection baked digital countertop oven model KC 0 2

00:18:08   7 3

00:18:11   Put the URL this one in the chat room for everybody. This is a high-priced one. This is a hundred and eighty seven dollars

00:18:16   Yeah, this is a fancy toaster oven we're back to normal looking things

00:18:21   The first thing you have to know about this is it's really big.

00:18:23   I know they all look the same size on Amazon.

00:18:25   I have a pretty big toaster, the Breville 650 XL.

00:18:29   This is really big.

00:18:30   It's like the bigger Breville.

00:18:32   It's so big that I think it really is beyond what is reasonable for most people's kitchens.

00:18:37   If you have a really, really big house, this will be to scale.

00:18:39   It's kind of like when you have a big room, you have to put a big sofa in it.

00:18:44   For interior design, you have to scale the furniture to the room.

00:18:47   Unfortunately, I like to scale the furniture to the people but no matter how big you are

00:18:51   If you have a really small room and you put a gigantic

00:18:53   Puffy leather sofa in it it will over overwhelm the room and similarly if you have a cavernous room you want to put this delicate

00:18:58   Little sofa in it. It won't quite look right. So anyway, this is a big toaster oven

00:19:03   So do not buy this unless you have a really big kitchen or you really want to dedicate that much space to it

00:19:08   It's tall. It's wide. It's deep. It's humongous

00:19:10   I when when I put this on my counter since I have like narrow like New England ancient countertops

00:19:15   Opening the door practically, that's it. There's no more counter space left. Like there's a toaster

00:19:19   I can open the door and I don't remember the door overhangs the edge of my counter, but it's close. This thing is huge

00:19:23   It's stainless steel just like in the picture. That is actual stainless steel not plastic colored stainless steel very sturdy construction

00:19:30   I think even the handle is stainless steel

00:19:32   Which occasionally the handle will be like plastic for like insulation

00:19:35   It feels rugged it feels you know, it looks nice and glossy

00:19:40   Plus the everything feels thick, the wire rack feels incredibly rugged, thick gauge

00:19:46   wire, it's actually got this little metal strip on the front of it.

00:19:49   Everything is very solid.

00:19:50   The door feels solid, it opens and closes solidly, it's got the little, not little rubber

00:19:54   stoppers, big rubber stoppers on it, the spring tension is just right, doesn't wobble, doesn't

00:19:59   creak.

00:20:00   Three positions for the rack, and they have little instructions for another thing about

00:20:04   where the different positions are for.

00:20:06   five heating elements for those thin resistive style ones plus one of the thicker quartz

00:20:10   style ones on top in the middle. It has a huge thick cord like one of those like for

00:20:15   a power tool like your you know your Makita drill or something like a big three prong

00:20:20   cord with a very thick cable and the big connector and I don't know why these guys do this because

00:20:24   don't they know it has to go in the kitchen like where do they think people are plugging

00:20:27   in their toaster ovens like you're gonna put it on your counter and then you're gonna plug

00:20:30   it in and the plug is gonna be just above your counter right the plug sticks out like

00:20:34   three inches from the place where you plug it in because it's a huge three prong connector,

00:20:37   right? It's not, they need to make flush mount plugs. You know how they, you know, those little

00:20:41   adapters they sell for them? You have to make it like, even if the plug isn't right behind the

00:20:45   toaster, because if it was, the toaster would be six inches away from the wall. Even if it's not

00:20:48   right outside, who wants to see this big thick, like hard to manage, you know, maybe the cord has

00:20:53   to be that thick for the power requirements, but make a flat mount plug people. I don't know what

00:20:56   the hell they're doing. Let's see, the controls on this one, if you look at it, are very similar

00:21:02   to my Breville, I don't know who copied who. Obviously I had my Breville first so I'm thinking,

00:21:06   "Oh, they copied the Breville's control." Who knows who copied this first. But anyway,

00:21:09   there's an LCD on top, a backlit LCD on top showing you temperatures, timers, countdowns,

00:21:16   the same type of controls where you get to pick a temperature and a number of slices or whatever.

00:21:21   There's two knobs. The first one is the function knob for all the different things you can do,

00:21:25   toast, bake, and it has things for reheat and bagel that does different temperatures

00:21:31   during different phases. Like for example, the bagel will do a lower temperature to toast it,

00:21:35   and then towards the end, it'll do the top elements only really high to toast the tops of the bagel.

00:21:40   It's assuming you have a bagel that's been sliced in half, yeah, stuff like that. Lots of different

00:21:44   functions. In fact, more functions than the Breville for all sorts of different things.

00:21:47   This is also a convection oven, by the way, which is one of the reasons it's so freaking huge,

00:21:50   because they've got to fit all the convection fans in there. So there are function settings for

00:21:53   convection type baking too, where they'll try to bake a whole chicken and keep the air flowing,

00:21:57   and then crisp up the skin at the end and everything. And then the knob below it is

00:22:00   is the control knob, which really is just kind of like the control knob in your BMWs

00:22:05   or whatever, where you just press it to select and turn to go up and down selections in a

00:22:10   menu. The knobs themselves, they are not as wobbly as they are on the Breville, they're

00:22:15   still plastic but they're not as wobbly, they don't have as much slop, they're not made

00:22:17   to look like fake metal, which helps. They're nicer materials than the Breville ones, they're

00:22:21   not like shiny plastic, they're kind of like textured. They're still a little bit gritty,

00:22:25   they're not the best feeling knobs, but they're better than the Breville ones, so they're

00:22:28   pretty good. Since the function knob on the bottom really should just be a disk, because

00:22:32   it's like turn left, turn right to go through a series of options and press in, it's weird

00:22:36   that it has like a flathead screwdriver type like indentation, they want you to pinch it,

00:22:41   because there's it just spins around forever. Like there's no there's no markings or anything.

00:22:44   It's really just a jog dial basically. And it's weird for a jog dial to have a part where

00:22:48   you can grab it because then it's like when you're done with it, where do you leave it?

00:22:51   Do you leave it pointing up? Do you like anytime you turn it, it might change a number on the

00:22:55   screen. So that's a little bit weird, but I think just did it for symmetry. And then

00:22:58   it's got a start button on the bottom, it's got a little button for frozen things. What

00:23:01   is that other button for? I can remember off the top of my head. Oh, and the convection

00:23:04   button to turn convection on and off.

00:23:06   So the knob feels good?

00:23:07   So, so. Like I said, it's higher quality than my Breville, and they don't feel like they're

00:23:11   shaky and they're about to come off, and they're not fake-looking. It's supposed to look like

00:23:14   metal, but it's really plastic. But I think the decision to make the jog dial look positional

00:23:19   when it's not really is a little bit off. Plus, you have to press it as a button. It's

00:23:22   weird to press a button that's, you know, that's like a dial that you can pinch.

00:23:27   time, four minutes and 30 seconds for a piece of toast. Not great, the Breville is a little

00:23:31   bit faster, but this thing's cavernous, like, you'd be lucky if it doesn't take eight minutes.

00:23:35   And it did a pretty decent job of toasting. The convection features, I didn't have an

00:23:41   opportunity to test because I didn't have anything that you would cook in convection,

00:23:43   but it has like a cookie setting and stuff, so I think you could actually use this as

00:23:46   a miniature oven.

00:23:47   You didn't have an entire chicken to put in there, like as depicted in one of these pictures?

00:23:51   Well, that's a tiny chicken. Like, this is not as tall as the super tall one was, so

00:23:56   There isn't that, you know, I would still treat it as a toaster oven, not as a place

00:23:59   you're, like, remember the one that had the probe built in?

00:24:01   That you could, that could probably fit a bigger chicken.

00:24:03   So to categorize this, I would say this is most similar to the Big Breville, which I've

00:24:08   never tested, by the way.

00:24:09   And so I assume it's okay because I have a small Breville and people who have the Big

00:24:13   Breville say it's good, but it seems similar in terms of it feels sturdy, it looks nice,

00:24:18   it does the job it's supposed to do, it has enough heating elements to heat up that big

00:24:21   interior, and I guess if you want to use it as an oven, it'll work fine too.

00:24:24   I think the best the things to recommend this the most are the things that I like most about my Breville

00:24:29   I like seeing immediately when I press the start button how long it thinks it's gonna take

00:24:33   Because it'll you know as soon as you put the pieces of toast in there you say how many pieces of toast and what level?

00:24:38   Of darkness which is a number that you can pick three four or five six seven you just learn whatever darkness you like

00:24:42   And then you press the start button

00:24:44   And it will tell you it'll start counting down from four minutes and 20 seconds or whatever and then when you put in the second

00:24:49   Round of bread if someone else wants toast it will start counting down from three minutes and 30 seconds because the thing has heated up

00:24:54   Right, you know how long it's gonna take you get to see a countdown

00:24:56   it's easy to adjust because

00:24:58   They get it they get around the whole problem of trying to do the darkness adjustment because it's a number on a screen and really

00:25:03   You're just using a control to adjust a screen the screen really helps because then you can do

00:25:06   Countdowns and show words and numbers up there. It's not like a full bitmap display

00:25:10   It's a you know, a bunch of seven segment things and a bunch of other things, but it makes a big difference

00:25:14   The little frozen button is surprisingly useful

00:25:16   It's kind of like that a little bit more button that some of the toasters have where you're like

00:25:20   I'm gonna toast bread, but actually this bread is straight out of the freezer

00:25:22   So put it on the same toast setting you always want but then hit the little snowflake button

00:25:26   And it will just add a little bit more to get it defrosted before it goes into the toast cycle. So

00:25:30   Overall if you want a really big toaster and considering I haven't tested the really big Breville

00:25:36   This is the best really big toaster I've ever tried. It is a solid quality product. It does all the jobs

00:25:42   It's supposed to do if you as they say if you have the space I can recommend it

00:25:47   Wow, so if you have the means you highly suggest picking one up. Yeah. Yeah

00:25:52   Yeah, no, it is a quality product.

00:25:54   Now--

00:25:55   That's a reference, Sean.

00:25:56   Since this is the last one-- I know, I was making that reference.

00:25:58   Since this is the last one of these we're doing, a lot of people have asked about the

00:26:01   Sweet Homes toaster reviews.

00:26:03   Their number one pick was one of the toasters that I did review a while back.

00:26:07   It was the really tall Panasonic one that was really, really fast.

00:26:11   And people were asking, "What do you think of their reviews?"

00:26:14   They do actual product reviews, not joke ad product review things.

00:26:17   So go read their reviews.

00:26:19   They actually test them.

00:26:20   put a million pieces of bread into all these things.

00:26:22   My criteria may be different than theirs,

00:26:24   but I'm not doing the kind of testing they're doing.

00:26:25   So please read their review

00:26:26   if you really care about toasters.

00:26:28   Now that said, having used the one they picked

00:26:31   as a top pick, the reason I don't like it

00:26:33   is because I think the UI is weird

00:26:34   and I think it's oddly shaped,

00:26:36   but it does toast things really fast and really efficiently

00:26:38   and does a good job on them.

00:26:39   But for my purposes, I want to be able to put

00:26:42   four slices of bread in there or a whole tray

00:26:44   full of English muffin pizzas or something.

00:26:47   And they just won't fit in the toaster

00:26:48   'cause it's just not big enough.

00:26:49   And so it doesn't fulfill anything.

00:26:50   And the UI is just crazy with the membrane buttons

00:26:52   and all the different functions that the Breville interface

00:26:55   and this interface are just way better.

00:26:56   But that matters less to them in their rating.

00:26:58   They're mostly saying what, when the bread comes out,

00:27:00   how does it look and how does it taste?

00:27:02   And that toaster, that Panasonic toaster,

00:27:05   toast bread really fast and does a good job on it.

00:27:07   So I don't disagree or agree with their ratings.

00:27:09   I just know what I want out of my toasters.

00:27:11   That's what I'm reviewing.

00:27:13   ♪ Syracuse of toast ♪

00:27:16   ♪ Reviews all day every single day ♪

00:27:18   ♪ Hear him talk about toast ♪

00:27:21   ♪ And I'm whisked away ♪

00:27:23   ♪ I can love my toaster ♪

00:27:25   - This whole year we've had toaster reviews

00:27:26   from Carbs Against Humanity.

00:27:27   This is the last one.

00:27:29   Great idea, this is their idea, fantastic idea.

00:27:31   We all had a great time.

00:27:32   And yeah, thanks a lot.

00:27:34   - But please, no more toasters.

00:27:35   (laughing)

00:27:37   I never did test the top pick, the top expensive pick.

00:27:40   Like, the sweet home has like, here's our top pick,

00:27:42   and they always try to take budget into consideration.

00:27:44   And they always have like,

00:27:45   if you have a little bit more money,

00:27:46   this one's even better.

00:27:47   It's not better enough that we think it's worth it,

00:27:49   but it's a little bit better.

00:27:49   And I have not tested that toaster.

00:27:51   Whatever that toaster is, I'm actually curious about it.

00:27:53   Maybe if my thing ever dies, I'll take it.

00:27:55   And by the way, I didn't say, but a couple of,

00:27:57   I guess a couple of months ago at this point,

00:27:58   I did finally open up my Breville

00:28:00   and adjust the stupid springs

00:28:01   and the door doesn't spring open.

00:28:02   - Nice. - Or spring closed rather.

00:28:04   Which was a real pain, man.

00:28:06   I could, I literally could not figure out

00:28:08   how to get this toaster apart without breaking it.

00:28:10   Luckily I can get to the spring

00:28:11   without actually fully disassembling it,

00:28:12   but I think any one of those eye-opener things from iFixit

00:28:15   that like heats up some glue or something,

00:28:16   I don't know what the hell is holding this thing together, but it is...

00:28:19   There are a lot of screws and it is very solidly constructed, so I was just lucky I could get through it to the point where I could get to the spring and adjust the tension.

00:28:27   Goodness. I'm gonna miss these reviews. You sure you don't want any more toasters?

00:28:31   No, I just... I think I have like three or four left to ship out of here and then no more.

00:28:36   No more, please. They're just too big.

00:28:38   We'll have to send you small objects to review.

00:28:40   Yeah, I'll review diamonds.

00:28:42   [laughter]

00:28:45   Slightly included.

00:28:47   I see what you did there.

00:28:48   What are the 5Cs anyway? 4Cs rather.

00:28:51   Anyway, alright, so we should probably talk about what went on this week.

00:28:54   Can we talk about the headphone jack business really quickly?

00:28:58   Oh boy, I'd like to talk about this.

00:29:00   So there are rumors based on an interesting translation from some Japanese site.

00:29:07   I don't think we even have the link in the show notes, do we?

00:29:09   I don't know. I mean, the source of this is pretty unreliable.

00:29:12   I think based on the rumor and based on some things

00:29:16   that we've looked at here and there

00:29:18   and been told here and there,

00:29:19   it sure seems like this rumor has no more credibility

00:29:23   than any other random rumor that you find

00:29:25   with poor sourcing on the internet.

00:29:26   So the rumor itself has no credibility really,

00:29:30   but it is I think worth talking about,

00:29:32   would Apple do this and what would be the ramifications?

00:29:36   - Well the rumor may not like the specifics of the rumor,

00:29:39   like we think the iPhone 7,

00:29:40   which will be the next major iPhone that Apple makes,

00:29:42   is going to have this feature.

00:29:43   Well, you know, whatever.

00:29:44   Maybe it seems like the sourcing for that is not great.

00:29:47   But we do know for a fact that you can plug

00:29:51   compatible headphones into the Lightning port

00:29:53   on your existing iPhones and they will work as headphones.

00:29:55   Like that Apple has already added headphone support

00:29:58   to the Lightning port for iPhones.

00:29:59   And that you can buy, I don't know who buys these things,

00:30:02   but you can, we'll put a link in the show notes,

00:30:04   headphones right now today that have at the end of them,

00:30:06   instead of the 3.5 millimeter headphone jack,

00:30:10   have a lightning port and plug them into your existing iPhone

00:30:12   and it will work fine.

00:30:13   And you have to think, why would Apple do that

00:30:16   if at some point it wasn't at least considering,

00:30:18   are we gonna keep that headphone jack?

00:30:20   Are we gonna have that all the time?

00:30:22   You know, the things are getting thinner,

00:30:23   maybe we should start thinking about

00:30:24   what we're gonna do.

00:30:25   It doesn't mean they're gonna make a phone

00:30:26   without one ever even,

00:30:27   but they did do something that opens the door for this.

00:30:30   That's why people take these rumors vaguely seriously.

00:30:33   And I think before like the last iPhone,

00:30:35   maybe it was for the iPhone 6,

00:30:37   same rumors were out there

00:30:38   because people were hearing about headphone support for the Lightning port. And lo and

00:30:42   behold, that actually exists and is a thing and is there right now. So that's why I think

00:30:46   this is worth entertaining because Apple would not both implement and ship something like

00:30:50   that if it hadn't considered very seriously the idea of ditching the headphone port at

00:30:54   some point in the future.

00:30:55   >>Steve - I mean, so the idea of ditching the headphone port, first of all, the rumor

00:31:00   is that they would ditch the headphone port in order to make the iPhone a millimeter thinner.

00:31:04   And this was covered pretty well in this week's episode of the talk show with Jon Gruber and

00:31:07   and John Moltz, so I don't wanna go too far to this

00:31:11   'cause they literally gave an hour to it.

00:31:13   It was pretty good.

00:31:14   But the short version is that you don't need

00:31:17   to ditch the headphone jack to get

00:31:19   that extra millimeter today because the current generation

00:31:22   of iPod touches still has the headphone jack

00:31:26   and is at least that much thinner.

00:31:28   So you don't need to do that.

00:31:31   Now, granted, you could and you could make other gains.

00:31:34   We're getting to the point now where making the phone

00:31:37   noticeably thinner will require dropping things

00:31:40   that people tend to like in their phones,

00:31:42   like the headphone port and like good cameras.

00:31:45   So let's see what they do in that area.

00:31:46   Maybe they can make different advances, we'll see.

00:31:48   But right now, thinness alone is probably

00:31:51   not a good enough reason yet.

00:31:53   - I didn't listen to that episode,

00:31:54   but did they talk about the slimmed down

00:31:56   3.5 millimeter jack?

00:31:58   - They didn't.

00:31:59   Yeah, didn't Apple change the way it was built

00:32:01   and make a special one or something like that?

00:32:03   - There's a Apple patent, which again,

00:32:05   Apple patents everything.

00:32:06   It's an Apple and Cider link.

00:32:07   It's basically like a regular headphone jack

00:32:09   but with the one side filed down to be flat.

00:32:12   I just put the link in the show notes.

00:32:13   - And there is, by the way, there is also,

00:32:15   so the headphone jack that most people think of

00:32:18   is a 3.5 millimeter jack.

00:32:20   There's also a 2.5 millimeter version

00:32:23   that has existed forever also,

00:32:26   just like all the other ones.

00:32:27   So there is a smaller version of the standard headphone jack

00:32:31   that is occasionally used on things.

00:32:33   In fact, a lot of headphones,

00:32:33   If the headphone that you're using has a detachable cable,

00:32:37   there's a pretty decent chance that the end of the cable

00:32:39   that plugs into the ear cup might have that size plug on it.

00:32:42   A lot of them do.

00:32:44   So those plugs exist.

00:32:46   They could switch to that and gain a whole extra millimeter,

00:32:48   which is a pretty big deal at this scale.

00:32:50   That now, granted, again, they don't need to yet.

00:32:53   - Although for the 2.5 one, I think one of the reasons

00:32:57   that they would wanna stay away from that is,

00:32:59   I know from having kids that it's possible

00:33:02   to bend the 3.5 millimeter one,

00:33:04   just from kids bumping it around,

00:33:05   2.5 would have been even easier.

00:33:08   Maybe adults don't do this,

00:33:09   but it's kind of getting to the point

00:33:11   where you don't want that one to be on the,

00:33:12   because I think the 2.5 millimeter

00:33:14   is easier to bend than lightning.

00:33:16   And I don't know, maybe this is just me,

00:33:19   but anyone who has kids who use their iOS devices,

00:33:21   like that they get to use all the time that are theirs,

00:33:24   go to all of them and take the kids' headphones,

00:33:26   plug them into the jack, and then rotate them

00:33:28   and see if they actually are still straight on axis.

00:33:31   It seems like every one of my kids touch,

00:33:33   not massively bent, but bent enough that you can see that.

00:33:36   - Seriously?

00:33:37   - Yeah, just wait, it'll happen.

00:33:39   - Yeah, so anyway, assume Apple does this.

00:33:42   What does that, so assume they get rid of the headphone jack

00:33:45   and the only way you can plug headphones,

00:33:47   or the only way you can use headphones with an iPhone

00:33:49   is either over Bluetooth or through lightning.

00:33:51   So what does that mean in practice?

00:33:54   And I've heard, I mean, I don't have a real job,

00:33:57   but I've heard a lot of people who have real jobs

00:34:00   listen to music on their phones for a big chunk of the work day through headphones at

00:34:05   work. For whatever reason, they either can't or don't want to use music services on the

00:34:10   work computer itself, so they plug into the phone and use like a streaming service or

00:34:15   the music library on their phone to listen to music at work. Most of the time, I would

00:34:19   expect the phone to be plugged in during this process. If you do this, if you have it so

00:34:24   that that jack has gone away, chances are Apple would probably ship a little dongle

00:34:30   for between $20 and $40 that would basically be a lightning to 3.5 millimeter headphone

00:34:37   adapter. And we've seen how they do these things, chances are it would not have a lightning

00:34:42   pass-through to also charge the phone. Chances are this would be a one plug thing, one plug

00:34:47   on each end, and that would be it. Similarly, lightning headphones would have the same problem

00:34:52   where lightning headphones don't have a lightning pass through port to also simultaneously

00:34:56   charge the phone while you're listening to the headphones. So chances are, if they did

00:35:02   this, you could no longer listen to the phone while it was being charged unless you abandon

00:35:08   wires completely and go to Bluetooth.

00:35:10   Well, I mean, a million third parties would sell adapters for it. And by the way, I see

00:35:13   people listening to their phones at work and none of them have it plugged in. So maybe

00:35:17   they just like it because with the screen is often it's just playing audio even if maybe

00:35:20   it's playing like Spotify and streaming stuff it's not that bad or maybe people just don't care.

00:35:24   But yeah, if Apple didn't build it somebody would because it would be eminently buildable. So I don't

00:35:28   think that would be a significant deterrent to doing this and I don't think it would preclude

00:35:34   people from charging their phone while they listen because they just make an adapter.

00:35:37   Yeah and also consider that the official Apple, I always get the name of this wrong, but the

00:35:44   Lightning AV connector, whatever it is that we talked about last episode.

00:35:48   Yeah, your favorite thing in the world.

00:35:49   yeah, like my favorite thing in the world. This thing does have a lightning pass-through.

00:35:53   I actually think you're right, Marco, that it's unlikely that that's the approach Apple would

00:35:57   take for this, because I think it's far more likely that they would just, they would assume

00:36:01   that listening would not be all day long and that you wouldn't need to charge as you listen.

00:36:06   But there is a precedent for them doing something with a lightning pass-through. And the whole

00:36:10   reason there's lightning pass-through on this cable is so that you can charge your phone while

00:36:14   while you're displaying whatever you have on the phone

00:36:17   on a TV or whatever.

00:36:19   - Right, so that is one thing that would be inconvenient

00:36:23   or problematic for people if they did this.

00:36:25   - Well, the main inconvenient thing, of course,

00:36:27   is that you can't use your old headphones,

00:36:28   even if they ship an adapter,

00:36:29   even if you don't need to charge,

00:36:30   having to have an adapter is annoying.

00:36:32   That is the main inconvenience is,

00:36:34   but what about all my headphones?

00:36:35   And I don't wanna use an adapter

00:36:38   and it's just not elegant or nice or whatever.

00:36:40   And so that was, you know,

00:36:41   last time we had this discussion

00:36:43   when the rumors of lightning port headphone support were out there, same thing. It's like,

00:36:47   well, I don't want to not have all my headphones. And, you know, that's what everybody says anytime

00:36:52   a port gets, you know, I don't want to lose all my charging cables. I don't want to not be able

00:36:56   to use all my docs when they change from 30 pin. But the headphone port, as many people have

00:37:00   pointed out on Twitter and elsewhere, is way older than the 30 pin connector, and is not as terrible

00:37:05   as the 30 pin connector. Like, it's fairly solid port, you can't put it in the wrong way. It's

00:37:09   It's pretty sturdy. It's been around by, I saw some estimates of being like 90, 80, 90

00:37:14   years depending on how you measure. Maybe it was over 100, I forget.

00:37:17   I mean it has this minor problem of shorting itself out when you plug it in, but you know,

00:37:21   other than that it's okay.

00:37:22   Yeah, you know, it's not the best in the world, but like with all these things, like the thing

00:37:26   that came to mind to me is VGA ports. VGA ports, granted, weren't around since 1910.

00:37:32   Fine. But they were around for a really long time, and they had limitations that were obvious,

00:37:38   especially as we went from analog to digital video

00:37:40   with like DVI connections and HDMI and display port

00:37:43   and stuff like that.

00:37:44   But VGA was like the standard.

00:37:46   You go into a conference room, they have VGA connectors.

00:37:48   And what eventually did VGA connectors in

00:37:51   was not all the things I just listed,

00:37:53   which should have been obvious.

00:37:54   Like, well, you can't keep doing VGA.

00:37:55   You're gonna constantly convert to analog.

00:37:57   It's just terrible.

00:37:58   And then the resolution limits and like,

00:37:59   we have all these digital standards.

00:38:01   Why wouldn't you switch those?

00:38:02   What did VGA in is eventually everybody's laptops

00:38:05   too damn small to fit a VGA port on the side. That's what did it. It's just, I mean, I know

00:38:11   you can still find it on your Dells. I know they make laptops that are like exactly the

00:38:16   thickness of a VGA port. I think I even saw where the tops and bottoms of the VGA port

00:38:20   were basically, there was no like plastic above and below them. They were just, you

00:38:24   know what I mean? Like it was, there was no like thing to shove the VGA port into. It

00:38:28   was just like, there was like a notch cut out and the VGA port was there. So when you

00:38:31   plugged in something, the plug would be thicker than the thing. Anyway, that's what eventually

00:38:35   did in VGA ports, certainly on the Mac,

00:38:37   and on a lot of other slim laptops that are out there.

00:38:39   'Cause if you wanna have a really slim laptop,

00:38:41   the VGA port is just too darn big.

00:38:42   So that future is lurking out there,

00:38:45   probably in the possibly distant future,

00:38:48   but who knows, for smartphones.

00:38:51   Because eventually we'll be able to get smartphones

00:38:53   thin enough that the port will be thicker than the thing.

00:38:56   Now, we were already there with high quality cameras,

00:38:59   as Marco pointed out before,

00:39:00   that the phone is already thicker than the camera,

00:39:02   and we just make the camera poke out.

00:39:03   So who's to say you couldn't have a credit card thin iPhone 15 years from now and hanging

00:39:09   off the edge of it, a 3.5 inch thing.

00:39:12   You know what I mean?

00:39:13   Like it would be this big lump, this big silly lump thing, but it wouldn't detract too much

00:39:18   from the thinness of the phone.

00:39:19   It would still be in a situation where then if you drop your phone, it would flutter harmlessly

00:39:23   to the ground and you would pick it up.

00:39:24   And the fact that it has the silly headphone port poking out of it wouldn't bother anybody.

00:39:29   I'm not sure the headphone port is raised to the level where we're willing to say,

00:39:35   "You know what?

00:39:36   Even when our phone is the thickness of a credit card, I will be perfectly fine with

00:39:40   there being a 3.5-inch headphone jack on there."

00:39:43   Of course, at that point, lightning will also be too thick.

00:39:46   In thinking about this, I think we can all agree I don't want to make this infinite

00:39:50   timescale argument, but this may literally be one.

00:39:53   You finally said it.

00:39:54   I know.

00:39:55   Well, you guys keep using the phrase, but this may be an actual application of it because

00:39:58   it's like, look, that port is going to go away eventually.

00:40:01   It just is, right?

00:40:02   Yeah.

00:40:03   The question is, is this the year that it goes away?

00:40:06   In terms of timing, say you were like the grand poobah

00:40:08   of when ports go away across the industry, which Apple kind of

00:40:11   is, because once they make a move, everyone yells at them

00:40:13   and says they're stupid for doing it,

00:40:14   and then does the same thing five years later, or two years

00:40:16   later, or one year later.

00:40:18   See also floppy drives and getting rid of legacy ports,

00:40:21   although PCs have been much slower about that.

00:40:24   Is this the year to do it?

00:40:25   Would you do it this year?

00:40:26   With the iPhone 7, I mean, would you

00:40:27   decide that this is the year to do it, or would you wait until you have to do it for

00:40:31   some thickness reason? Because I agree with Marco that they don't have to do it for a

00:40:34   thickness reason, but would you do it anyway to sort of say, "We want to get the pain

00:40:39   over with now," or would you wait until everything goes USBC and you finally give

00:40:43   up on Lightning in six years? I don't know.

00:40:47   You can look at this and, to me, there's so many downsides to doing this. First of

00:40:52   First of all, I think this would cause a substantial loss

00:40:56   of goodwill, that this would be a big deal.

00:41:00   Look at how many people complained for so long

00:41:03   and got so mad about the switch to lightning at all.

00:41:06   To have them also basically make everyone's headphones

00:41:08   obsolete or make them worse by having them requiring

00:41:11   some dongle to be plugged in, this would be a really,

00:41:14   really big problem for their goodwill

00:41:17   and customer satisfaction and for the press's impression

00:41:19   and what everyday people, what all people,

00:41:22   end up thinking about it and thinking about them.

00:41:24   - How many iPhone buyers do you think use headphones

00:41:27   other than the ones that come with the iPhone?

00:41:29   - I mean, you can look at Beats as a pretty big example

00:41:31   that it's a pretty big number.

00:41:33   I mean, I think that the market for aftermarket headphones

00:41:38   is pretty healthy right now.

00:41:39   I very rarely see people using the earbuds anymore.

00:41:43   - See, I'm trying to think of what I see people using

00:41:46   and I mostly see people using the earbuds.

00:41:47   You're right that the big headphones,

00:41:49   So the next thing I would say is if they're not using earbuds, what are they using?

00:41:52   I would say they're using something like Beats, whether they're real Beats or Beats ripoffs

00:41:56   or just big headphones like that.

00:41:59   But I don't know.

00:42:01   There are upsides to this for people who sell headphones, obviously, right?

00:42:06   Because even the people who sell earbuds suddenly get to increase their margins because previously

00:42:12   they were selling, "Oh, hey, you broke or lost the things that came with your Apple

00:42:17   earbuds.

00:42:18   earbuds, you like that they're small, you don't want big beat sized things but you lost

00:42:21   or broke them and you want a replacement and you don't want to pay for Apple's. Buy ours,

00:42:25   which are $3 cheaper than Apple's, but our margins are huge because these earbuds are

00:42:29   pieces of crap and they have a lightning port on them. So these are made for iPhone, iPhone

00:42:34   compatible ear pods or whatever.

00:42:37   - Right, this is a way for Apple to not only sell a very large number of high volume dongles

00:42:43   and accessories to adapt old headphones, but it's also a way now for Apple to, through

00:42:48   the MFI program, to take a royalty on every headphone sold. Like that's, of course, I

00:42:55   mean look, you can look at this as, you know, the various benefits that this might bring,

00:43:01   you can look at it as the various downsides it might bring, and I'll address Bluetooth

00:43:04   separately because Bluetooth is a whole different story, but you know, if you're still staying

00:43:07   wired, I hate to be cynical about this, but I think a realistic way to think about this

00:43:12   is would today's Apple, really today's Apple,

00:43:16   not the Apple that we want to exist,

00:43:18   but the actual Apple that does exist today,

00:43:20   would today's Apple make an already very thin device,

00:43:24   even thinner, at the expense of usefulness

00:43:27   in the real world, and in a way that would increase

00:43:31   the average selling price of their best-selling product

00:43:34   by designing it to basically require high-margin accessories

00:43:38   at the expense of customer satisfaction and goodwill?

00:43:40   Yes, of course they would.

00:43:42   They do this all the time now.

00:43:43   - But it depends on how much customer satisfaction

00:43:46   and goodwill.

00:43:47   That's why when I, if I keep thinking about this,

00:43:48   if I was gonna run a meeting on this at Apple,

00:43:51   the first thing I would say is before we even discuss

00:43:53   this headphone things, we have to decide

00:43:54   if we're ever gonna go USB-C.

00:43:56   Are we gonna stick with Lightning?

00:43:57   If we're gonna stick for Lightning,

00:43:58   is Lightning on a 10 year plan?

00:43:59   Or is it not?

00:44:01   Like, are we ever gonna, because Lightning and USB-C

00:44:04   are really similar to the point where,

00:44:07   like Lightning was important for Apple to have

00:44:09   because they had it for years before USB-C came out, right?

00:44:11   But the USBC is here now. So how many more years do we give lightning or are we committed to lightning for?

00:44:17   Is it really on a 10-year plan and we're not even consider an alternative until 10 years?

00:44:21   You're up because you have to have that discussion first because it's not just that we're saying get rid of the headphone port

00:44:26   It's get rid of the headphone port and the place where you plug it in is this lightning port and you really don't want to do

00:44:31   A thing where we had lightning for a while

00:44:33   Then we got rid of the headphone port and all the headphones had to be lightning and then a couple years after that we got

00:44:37   rid of lightning and all the headphones had to be USB-C or some crap like that.

00:44:40   That is really bad in the long timeline for customer satisfaction.

00:44:43   I think you can only absorb a certain number of these "we're getting rid of the floppy

00:44:47   drive" type of revolutions.

00:44:49   You can't stack them that close together.

00:44:51   So I think you really have to plan this thing out.

00:44:54   And I think you should plan it because like I said, it's going to go away eventually.

00:44:56   Eventually the phone's going to get so thin that you're going to have to make really difficult

00:44:58   choices about bulges and crap like that.

00:45:01   And if anyone's going to get rid of it on their phones, it's probably going to be Apple

00:45:04   because that's their thing.

00:45:05   They're more willing to get rid of it.

00:45:07   Even today's Apple that sells millions and millions

00:45:10   of these iPhones, they are the ones

00:45:12   who are gonna be more willing to get rid of this.

00:45:14   You just have to put it on a plan.

00:45:15   And right now, if the plan is not to keep lightning

00:45:18   for a long, long time, now is not the time

00:45:21   to get rid of the 3.5-inch port.

00:45:23   If they do get rid of it, it's not like they're gonna make

00:45:24   an announcement and say, "Yeah, we're getting rid

00:45:26   "of the headphones for it, and by the way,

00:45:27   "our current plan is to keep lightning around

00:45:29   "for at least five or six more years."

00:45:31   So don't even think about USB-C.

00:45:33   It's not gonna happen.

00:45:34   investment in lightning headphones will last you several years, many years, don't feel

00:45:38   too bad about it.

00:45:40   But they're not going to say that, so it'll be sort of an unknown.

00:45:42   If I had to put money on it right now, I would say I would bet against.

00:45:47   Not strongly against.

00:45:49   You know, $5149 percentage-wise, but I would bet against the iPhone 7 dropping the headphone

00:45:55   port, because I don't see a reason for it, and I don't feel like now is the time.

00:46:00   Because I really think that they will reconsider lightning sooner rather than later.

00:46:04   So I think they can hold out until they reconsider lightning in a couple of years and then they

00:46:09   can get rid of the port.

00:46:10   Because then they actually will probably need it thickness-wise.

00:46:14   But I do think that they should do it before they really need to.

00:46:17   The first one they do it on won't be because they just couldn't do it any other way.

00:46:20   It'll be because they wanted to set things up.

00:46:23   They wanted to take the hit when they were going to take the hit, set things up, and

00:46:26   then by the time they really, really need it, it's already kind of like lightning.

00:46:29   Like, did they have to go to the Lightning for the first phone they had, or could they

00:46:32   have wedged a 30-pin on there?

00:46:34   They could have fit a 30-pin on there.

00:46:35   It would have fit technically.

00:46:36   It would have been maybe awkward or whatever, but it could have fit.

00:46:38   But they didn't wait until they absolutely desperately needed Lightning.

00:46:41   They did Lightning when it looked very small on the end of the phone, and now the phones

00:46:45   are slowly shrinking down around it, and I think that's what they'll do with the headphone

00:46:48   replacement.

00:46:49   Yeah, I think you're right.

00:46:50   And I also think, you know, this is absolutely the kind of thing Apple would do.

00:46:55   the downsides be damned, they would definitely do it because, yeah, it makes things thinner,

00:47:00   even though we don't need them to be, but it makes things thinner, and it makes them

00:47:05   more money. So they would absolutely do it. But I don't think they're going to do it this

00:47:09   year. I don't think they need to yet, and I don't think it makes sense.

00:47:12   Yeah, I don't think it's going to happen either, but personally, I wouldn't be that bothered

00:47:17   by it. I almost never use Bluetooth headphones with my phone, but I might be the only person

00:47:22   on the planet that isn't particularly bothered by Bluetooth headphones.

00:47:27   I use Bluetooth headphones at work all day every day, and they're connected to my Mac,

00:47:31   not my phone.

00:47:32   They are very cheap headphones.

00:47:34   I think they were $25 new when I bought them literally four years ago.

00:47:39   The battery lasts at least a day, if not a couple of days.

00:47:43   The latency—yeah, if I hit pause, it doesn't pause instantly, but there's no latency when

00:47:48   I watch videos.

00:47:50   There's none of the – or I don't feel any of the qualms that so many people seem

00:47:55   to feel when they use Bluetooth headphones.

00:47:57   So if that means – if Bluetooth is our future, Bluetooth only is our future, or some silly

00:48:03   dongle, I don't think that's such a terrible future.

00:48:06   I think that Apple will get eviscerated in their customer's set, but I don't think

00:48:12   it's such a terrible future.

00:48:14   We've been, as Mac users – which is different, but as Mac users, laptop users – we've

00:48:18   stupid display dongles forever. I'm very overjoyed that this new MacBook Pro that I have is an

00:48:25   HDMI port. But generally speaking, we've had to use silly dongles all the time. If you're

00:48:30   one who uses most iPhone battery packs, most of the ones that I've ever seen, there's something

00:48:38   in the way of the headphone port. So if your headphone jack is any bigger than the headphone

00:48:45   port, like the ones that I've bought always include a one or two inch little extension

00:48:51   so you can clear the battery case and then plug in your headphone to the little extension.

00:48:57   Like none of these things are that terribly new. And again, I just, if Bluetooth is our

00:49:03   future I don't think that's such a bad thing. Sorry Marco.

00:49:06   Well it's not, Bluetooth it's kind of like the move to the watch. It's like here

00:49:12   Here is something else that is more expensive than what it might have replaced based on

00:49:19   a lot of software and flaky standards, so it's a little bit unreliable.

00:49:25   There's some lag involved in common actions.

00:49:28   And it's one more thing that needs to be charged and put on an upgrade cycle.

00:49:33   And I think we have so many of these things in the world.

00:49:37   And I say this as a user of the phone and the watch and Bluetooth headphones.

00:49:42   Most of the time when I'm using my phone for audio playback,

00:49:46   most of the time I'm using Bluetooth headphones.

00:49:48   Because most of the time I'm listening to podcasts,

00:49:50   my little Sennheiser PX210BT, which are amazing headphones,

00:49:54   although they're not made anymore,

00:49:55   but the MM400X is basically the same thing.

00:49:57   I love those headphones for podcasts,

00:49:59   but they're flaky, they need to be charged,

00:50:02   it is kind of annoying.

00:50:03   So in many ways this is a step forward,

00:50:07   but like Force Touch, it's a step forward

00:50:10   that's also kind of a step sideways

00:50:11   kind of worse in some ways and more complicated.

00:50:14   You know, what if Apple released a Bluetooth set of headphones that charges via lightning,

00:50:22   similar to the Apple Pencil, and charges really, really fast via lightning? Would that make

00:50:28   it easier on all of us? I was going to say regular people, but it would make it easier

00:50:32   on me too. You know, would that make it easier on all of us if you could get a couple of

00:50:36   hours worth of listening off of a five-minute charge?

00:50:40   I mean, the charging is one downside of many.

00:50:44   It's the unreliability, the extra battery power

00:50:47   that the phone needs to send the signal,

00:50:49   which then makes the phone battery life worse.

00:50:51   I mean, there's a lot of little downsides to Bluetooth.

00:50:54   And the reason I use it is because it is really convenient

00:50:58   when I'm walking around.

00:50:59   And these headphones sound like complete garbage.

00:51:02   And most Bluetooth headphones I have heard

00:51:05   sound either mediocre to bad.

00:51:08   And I don't think, you know, a lot of people say,

00:51:10   "Oh, well Bluetooth is a bad sounding protocol."

00:51:13   It is, but most of the sound problems people have

00:51:15   with Bluetooth headphones are because

00:51:16   the headphones themselves are mediocre.

00:51:18   Like the drivers are mediocre,

00:51:20   the whole design of the headphones is mediocre.

00:51:22   They just sound bad because usually you can plug 'em in

00:51:24   with a cable and you can hear the sound

00:51:25   just as bad over a cable.

00:51:27   But you know, the world of Bluetooth is not all bad.

00:51:29   And I think ultimately enough people are gonna be using

00:51:33   Bluetooth headphones often enough over time

00:51:36   that when they do finally kill the 3.5 inch jack,

00:51:39   which I don't think is happening this year,

00:51:40   but when they finally do it,

00:51:42   a big portion of people won't be affected at all

00:51:44   because they will already have moved onto Bluetooth,

00:51:46   but we are not there yet, and it isn't all good.

00:51:50   - Yeah, Bluetooth keeps evolving too,

00:51:51   the different versions of the standard,

00:51:53   so you think eventually, by the time, you know,

00:51:56   in many more years, it will still be Bluetooth,

00:51:59   but probably Bluetooth in name only,

00:52:00   and will maybe use different signaling,

00:52:02   and different frequencies and different compression strategies or whatever, and hopefully the

00:52:10   stacks that do it will be more reliable.

00:52:12   It will have evolved to the point where it passes that threshold of flakiness.

00:52:17   Because I think Bluetooth has been getting better, certainly in terms of power consumption,

00:52:20   Bluetooth has been getting better, so it doesn't drain your battery as much when you've got

00:52:23   the Bluetooth 4.0 whatever things.

00:52:27   All these ones that take less energy from your phone and I assume take a little bit

00:52:31   less energy for your headphones or maybe they're just passive receivers.

00:52:34   But anyway, what I always think about is Bluetooth earbuds, because I hate having cords, I hate

00:52:38   cords getting tangled up and stuff, you know, it would just be much more convenient if I

00:52:42   could stick my phone in my pocket, and what I want is earbuds because I don't, you know,

00:52:45   I'm listening to the podcast, I don't care, if I could put little earbuds in my ears and

00:52:48   then I would probably lose them so they have to be magnetic and maybe they could be magnetic

00:52:51   and stick to the back of the phone and inductively charge when they're not using them.

00:52:54   Like that is the wireless future, but I think Apple will ditch the headphone port before

00:53:00   wireless standards are as good as we would all like them to be.

00:53:04   I guess, what is that threshold?

00:53:07   Is it like Wi-Fi?

00:53:08   Is Wi-Fi, I guess Wi-Fi is above the threshold of flakiness.

00:53:12   Wi-Fi is way more reliable than Bluetooth.

00:53:15   It's still kind of flaky for some people though.

00:53:18   I don't know what, obviously there's signal strength where you're in some weird corner

00:53:21   of your house and you have lead in your walls and tough luck, right?

00:53:25   But for places where you get good signal but you are losing Wi-Fi, I don't hear many stories

00:53:30   about it. Certainly doesn't happen on Macs or when it does like it's a big deal in the

00:53:33   Apple community like oh the new version of OS X screws up Wi-Fi like we demand it to

00:53:36   be reliable. It's like if I can get a signal and I have enough bars on my little display

00:53:41   I want that connection to stay up and if it doesn't something is terribly wrong and Apple

00:53:45   needs to have a class action lawsuit against it right?

00:53:47   Meanwhile if somebody screwed up Bluetooth you wouldn't even notice.

00:53:50   Right Bluetooth again I mean like I said in my in my crappy car when I get in I just have

00:53:54   to wait to see. First of all if I don't have the source set to Bluetooth like if the source

00:53:58   to set to something else, Bluetooth doesn't even appear in the list of sources for a while.

00:54:01   So I have to listen to AM or FM or iPod or something else while I wait. I can't turn

00:54:06   the system off because that will not initiate the process of getting Bluetooth set up. So

00:54:10   I have to wait until Bluetooth appears as a source and then select it, which is annoying.

00:54:14   That's just your car. And if Bluetooth is already selected, say Bluetooth, I haven't

00:54:18   changed the selection, I get in the car, I start the engine, it's a long time before

00:54:22   I hear anything coming out of there. I have to wait and wait. I don't know what it's doing.

00:54:25   Is it booting up?

00:54:26   Is it trying to find my phone?

00:54:29   Usually it finds it.

00:54:30   Maybe 99% of the time it finds it after five or six seconds.

00:54:34   Sometimes it doesn't find it and I have to go to like, you know, connect to audio device

00:54:37   and it's already, it shows itself already being connected, but going through that thing

00:54:41   in the menu makes it connect.

00:54:42   Anyway, like I said, yeah, Bluetooth.

00:54:44   Well, you know, Bluetooth is way too flaky now and if it was messed up in some way, I

00:54:49   would never notice.

00:54:50   You say that, but what do you use?

00:54:53   Well, see, I can't ask you this.

00:54:55   Most people, however, probably use a Bluetooth keyboard and/or Bluetooth pointing device

00:55:01   for any sort of Mac that lives on a desk for any amount of time.

00:55:05   Yes, I know that there's a crud load of Mac laptops.

00:55:08   I know that most people probably use the onboard pointing device and keyboard.

00:55:12   But for those that have an iMac, those are almost certainly going to be Bluetooth.

00:55:17   So if they really hosed up a Bluetooth stack on OS X, I think we'd know it, and I think

00:55:21   we'd know it pretty quick.

00:55:22   What I've had that's been the most reliable, like the most frequent wireless accessory

00:55:27   that we use in our house that I've found to be more reliable than Bluetooth stuff like

00:55:30   say the Magic Trackpad, which I have now, and my non-Magic Trackpad, which I also have,

00:55:34   and my old Bluetooth keyboard, which I have, which I use with my iPad, which granted is

00:55:38   not OS X.

00:55:39   Anyway, is the little Logitech thing with the crazy little USB plug, you know, RF dongle

00:55:46   thing.

00:55:47   It's not Bluetooth, it's whatever Logitech's silly proprietary thing is.

00:55:49   silly proprietary thing, the batteries last forever and it always works and there are

00:55:55   no drivers to install.

00:55:56   And so I always think, Bluetooth, why can't you be like the stupid Logitech dongle?

00:56:00   Like what is it that they're doing?

00:56:01   Is it shorter range?

00:56:02   Is it just because it's non-standard?

00:56:04   Whatever the hell they're doing, you do that because it always works.

00:56:07   It never doesn't work.

00:56:10   It's very frustrating.

00:56:11   I understand there's probably technical issues involved and Bluetooth is a more sophisticated

00:56:13   protocol and they can do stuff like audio and it's not just, you know, sending mouse

00:56:16   positions, but Logitech, I bet when they were doing their products on it, it's like, "Oh,

00:56:20   Bluetooth is the next big thing.

00:56:22   You should really get on Bluetooth."

00:56:23   And I'm sure Logitech does make Bluetooth mice, but whoever said, "You know what?

00:56:26   No, we're going to stick with these stupid dongles," they were kind of right, because

00:56:30   those things always work.

00:56:31   I hate those stupid dongles with all my being.

00:56:33   Here again, I don't mind Bluetooth.

00:56:36   If Apple does kill the headphone jack in the next iPhone or in a iPhone, do they include

00:56:43   some sort of dongly adapter-y thing in the box, or do they include some sort of like

00:56:49   Bluetooth earbud sort of thing? I think they would include some sort of Bluetooth earbud

00:56:53   sort of thing, but what do you think, Marco?

00:56:56   - I would say neither. - You really think so?

00:56:58   - He's the pessimist. - Look, this is today's Apple. Let's be realistic

00:57:03   here. This is a way for them to make another 40 bucks on every sale. There is no way that

00:57:08   gets included in the box. No way. - I say there's no way they include Bluetooth

00:57:13   headphones because that is an upsell. That is an optional accessory. So you're not getting

00:57:16   Bluetooth headphones in the box, at least for the first version. Eventually, when wireless

00:57:20   becomes so pervasive that no one has the concept of plugging in a mouse or a keyboard or something,

00:57:24   eventually they may be. But for the first version, no. But I think they would include

00:57:28   the adapter for the same reason that they felt bad and included the MagSafe 1-2 adapter

00:57:33   in boxes for a million products for a really long time. I think they would include the

00:57:37   2.5-inch adapter because for that first one…

00:57:40   That was a long time ago.

00:57:41   I know, but for that first one, I feel like they're gonna wanna do something to stem the

00:57:47   tide of angry people whose headphones don't work anymore.

00:57:49   So I think, and because that adapter would probably be super cheap and passive, that

00:57:53   they would put it in the box.

00:57:55   Right now.

00:57:57   No.

00:57:58   We'll find out.

00:58:00   We'll probably all live long enough to find out.

00:58:02   This one is not an infinite time scale.

00:58:04   I would not bet heavily on my thing that they're gonna include the adapter, because Marco's

00:58:08   right.

00:58:09   would totally be an Apple thing to do, but it's just such an easy thing to do to really help with

00:58:14   the initial impact of the initial anger over breaking people's headphones that it's so small

00:58:20   and so cheap, like the little MagSafe 1 to 2. It's the same situation, like, "Oh, we're breaking

00:58:24   people's things." In fact, I bet the MagSafe 1 to 2 adapter was more expensive to manufacture

00:58:29   than the Lightning to 3.5 would be. I mean, so the more likely thing... So part of the rumor on this

00:58:35   the Tumor site was that it would, the translation was kind of weird, saying like it would be

00:58:39   a special new Lightning port that would allow pass-through of audio. Because the thing is,

00:58:45   you can't just take the digital Lightning signal and have a passive adapter that just

00:58:50   moves pins around and wires that and suddenly becomes an amplified analog signal, like for

00:58:56   everyone. So the report seemed to suggest that what it would do would be that if you

00:59:02   if you plugged in these special new things

00:59:05   in the special new port that would be on these new devices,

00:59:07   that it would still be using the DAC and AMP in the phone,

00:59:11   but that it would be able to route those

00:59:13   over the Lightning port, only on this new phone.

00:59:16   That would then allow a relatively passive device

00:59:21   to be the headphone side of that.

00:59:23   - Yeah, you can't have an adapter if you don't do that.

00:59:25   - Well, you could.

00:59:26   - Unless you have a chip in the adapter,

00:59:28   like the stupid H.264 output thing

00:59:30   with the processor in it.

00:59:32   - Yeah, no, I think that's the alternative here.

00:59:34   The alternative would be that the adapter

00:59:36   would actually have a little USB DAC amp thing

00:59:38   right in there, which is totally possible and plausible.

00:59:41   - But they would not do that,

00:59:43   because just think of the Lightning connectors

00:59:45   where there's a chip in the thing.

00:59:46   There's only so small you can make anything

00:59:48   that involves a chip.

00:59:49   So then you've got this big, stiff thing

00:59:51   poking out of the bottom of your phone that is not good.

00:59:54   That is just not gonna happen.

00:59:55   I don't think they will ever ship a product that's like that.

00:59:57   - Right, so it is also, the third option here,

01:00:00   which is way more sensible and likely

01:00:02   than them shipping adapters in the box.

01:00:05   The way more likely explanation here

01:00:07   is that they would just,

01:00:08   they would wire the port in that way

01:00:10   so that Lightning devices made in this,

01:00:12   Lightning audio headphones made in this way

01:00:15   would work only on the port on the new devices

01:00:17   that's made for this.

01:00:18   So it wouldn't work on your old phones,

01:00:19   but they don't care.

01:00:20   And they would just give a version of the ear pods

01:00:24   that they ship now that just has a Lightning plug on the end

01:00:27   and they would include that in the box.

01:00:28   - Well, of course, that's what they ship the phone to.

01:00:30   with of course but I think it would also come with the adapter for your old headphones.

01:00:34   Like if you have a pair of Beats that has a 3.5 you're going to get the thing that's

01:00:37   going to come with plain old passive ear pods with a lightning connector in the end.

01:00:41   Yes of course, they're not going to be Bluetooth.

01:00:43   And then it will also come I think with a little tiny passive adapter.

01:00:46   And see that's the part I don't think they would do that these days, no.

01:00:50   They would charge at least 20 bucks for that.

01:00:52   Remember we were talking about the USB 3 speeds on the iPad Pro?

01:00:56   Do you remember that?

01:00:57   Yeah, yeah.

01:00:58   one of the things that was like showing the internals of what the port looks like on the

01:01:02   iFixit teardown or something they had like two extra contacts for the lightning port and people

01:01:07   were speculating that it was those two extra contacts to get the USB 3 speeds because USB 3

01:01:11   connector has more contacts than the lighting port has contacts that's why I talked about that

01:01:17   that blog that linked to saying you don't need even though the USB 3 thing has all those extra

01:01:22   parts you don't need them on lightning because USB 3 has dedicated ports for send receive at USB

01:01:26   two speeds and lightning wouldn't need that because it can repurpose the pins because

01:01:30   it's like a dynamic port or whatever.

01:01:32   So then what are the two extra contacts for?

01:01:34   Maybe they're for passive audio stuff or something like that.

01:01:38   Like the idea that you can get, that you can find a way to, without changing the physical

01:01:44   sort of shape and size of the lightning port, find a way to make that passive adapter that

01:01:49   you can just plug in 3.5 mm headphone jack into without a chip or any sort of DAC in

01:01:54   it's still just completely analog coming out.

01:01:58   That's something that could be done.

01:02:00   But again, I don't know.

01:02:01   Even with that type of thing, I'm like, "Really?

01:02:02   Do you want to do this now?

01:02:04   Or do you want to..."

01:02:06   I don't know what the solution is, long-term, to making it thinner, because now we're thinking

01:02:09   about USB-C. USB-C's not going to add pins for analog audio any time, so maybe that's

01:02:13   like the advantage of Lightning, and the reason Lightning will stick around for a long time,

01:02:16   because Apple can do stuff like this without consulting anybody else, and without worrying

01:02:20   about...

01:02:21   I wouldn't assume that Lightning is going away

01:02:24   in favor of USB-C on the devices

01:02:26   that currently have Lightning anytime soon.

01:02:28   In fact, as we see, Apple just keeps adding Lightning

01:02:30   to more devices.

01:02:31   The Apple could have made things like the smart trackpad

01:02:34   and keyboard and everything,

01:02:35   they could have made those charge over USB-C

01:02:37   and they didn't.

01:02:38   They made them charge over Lightning.

01:02:39   Like all the peripherals, the new input devices.

01:02:43   - Well, my new iMac doesn't even have a USB-C port

01:02:46   on the back of it, so they're dragging their feet

01:02:47   a little bit on USB-C, but yeah.

01:02:49   - Well, they could have given you a cable,

01:02:50   But I think the reason here is Apple is perfectly fine to support USB-C to interface with peripherals

01:02:57   from the rest of the world, but when it comes to their own devices, and their own devices

01:03:03   like the end of the plug they support, I think they're very happy to support Lightning

01:03:07   because it is theirs. And so not only does it have more abilities than USB-C that might

01:03:12   be useful to Apple, but again, they're making licensing money on each one of those things,

01:03:16   and they're controlling the standard and everything. I mean, that's everything Apple

01:03:19   wants, it's control plus money plus smallness.

01:03:21   I mean, that's Apple right there.

01:03:23   That is everything they want.

01:03:26   So they are not gonna abandon Lightning anytime soon.

01:03:28   I think they would skip USB-C entirely

01:03:31   for things like iPhones.

01:03:33   And because it's not really any smaller than Lightning,

01:03:36   is it, I mean, we're not meaningfully so.

01:03:38   I'm guessing that the phone has Lightning

01:03:42   longer than USB-C would be the thing it would move to.

01:03:47   - I'm still hoping that my next tube-shaped Mac Pro

01:03:51   will have along the back of it a ton of little ports

01:03:54   that look like USB-C but are really Thunderbolt 3.

01:03:57   - Oh yeah, and I think, honestly, I would love that,

01:03:59   and I think that's most likely the case,

01:04:01   although unfortunately that pushes out,

01:04:03   it's like next June, I think, but--

01:04:04   - I am nothing if not patient.

01:04:06   (laughing)

01:04:07   - That's true.

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01:06:08   So big actual confirmed legitimate news happened.

01:06:13   We were told at WWDC that Swift would be open-sourced by the end of the year.

01:06:18   And with not too much time to spare, Swift has been open-sourced.

01:06:23   I am genuinely impressed.

01:06:26   And the thing that impressed me most, which I didn't realize at first, was that the entire

01:06:31   commit history, as far as we can tell, was pushed to GitHub.

01:06:36   It wasn't just the initial commit dance,

01:06:38   which is what most people do.

01:06:40   It's probably what I would have done if I was Apple.

01:06:42   But you can actually see the evolution of Swift over time,

01:06:46   which is crazy to me.

01:06:49   I don't even know where to go from here,

01:06:50   but I feel like, John, after your Copeland 2010 bit,

01:06:53   let's start with you.

01:06:56   - Well, so the first thing I think is worth explaining

01:06:58   is what the hell does it mean to open source Swift?

01:06:59   How do you open source a programming language?

01:07:01   Isn't a programming language just like you read a book

01:07:03   and it tells you how the language works?

01:07:05   Like, what are they open sourcing?

01:07:06   Of course, they're not, you know, it doesn't make much sense to open source language, but

01:07:10   what they're open sourcing is a bunch of the things they use to implement the language.

01:07:13   So LLVM and Clang and those compilers are already open source, but the Swift compiler

01:07:19   and the Swift standard library and associated things written in Swift, that's what's being

01:07:23   open source.

01:07:24   So there's a website, Swift.org, that you can go to, which is sort of the gateway for

01:07:27   all this stuff.

01:07:28   Today, I was kind of sad to see that their site was hosed, that Swift.org was like really,

01:07:33   really slow.

01:07:34   You didn't get errors, but you just try to load anything on Swift.org and it would take

01:07:38   forever to get back to you.

01:07:39   So that's kind of embarrassing.

01:07:41   I think the snarky comment I made was like, "Maybe if this Swift open source project gets

01:07:44   some kind of wealthy corporate backer, they can afford better hosting."

01:07:47   Seriously, this is like the richest technology company in the world, and Swift.org was slow

01:07:53   today.

01:07:54   It makes me sad.

01:07:55   Anyway, I will yell more about Apple and their network stuff in a future show, I'm sure.

01:07:59   Really?

01:08:00   Yeah.

01:08:01   We keep pushing it down the notes with all the news, but it is there, and it's getting

01:08:04   worse and it's simmering so I will complain about it at some point.

01:08:09   But Swift.org, if you go look at the source code, will lead you to GitHub, which is the

01:08:12   first exciting thing that you would see about this.

01:08:14   Like GitHub?

01:08:15   Really?

01:08:16   Apple's not hosting it on their, you know, opensource.apple.com website where they host

01:08:19   all the Darwin source?

01:08:20   And that's exactly what Casey was talking about.

01:08:22   In the old days, you know, Apple has open source components and like, or even WebKit,

01:08:27   but going even back farther, Darwin, the core OS that's underneath OS 10 and iOS, has been

01:08:33   open source from the beginning and what would usually happen is Apple would come to some

01:08:40   conference, WWDC or in the old days Macworld and announce a new version of the OS and then

01:08:47   developers would develop for it and then they would ship that version of the OS to customers

01:08:51   and then you would wait days, weeks or months and then the open source version of the underlying

01:08:56   projects like oh here's the Darwin release for Mac OS X 10.4.

01:09:01   would only be released as one big blob well after the OS was already out.

01:09:06   sometimes it would be the gap wouldn't be that small but the bottom line is you

01:09:10   would get what Casey was saying it's like a big dump like okay you can go to

01:09:14   this open source site and see the source code and it just sits there until the

01:09:17   next time Apple comes along goes plop here's 10.4 plop here's 10.5 and they

01:09:22   would do the point releases too but it's not like they're showing you here's the

01:09:26   entire commit history of all the components of Darwin over their entire

01:09:31   development. You just get these these dumps and what it wasn't as I say

01:09:35   developed in the open right so certainly as they're working you know 10.5 is

01:09:39   plopped down on the site someone somewhere in Apple's working on 10.6 you

01:09:42   don't get to see that work to the open source components you're not gonna see

01:09:45   any part of 10.6 until 10.6 is out and then they show here by the way here's

01:09:49   the open source parts of 10.6 plop right WebKit was a little bit different in

01:09:54   that you could see what was going on because it wasn't

01:09:56   strictly an Apple project and it was developed kind of out

01:09:58   in the open, but they would do the same thing

01:10:00   where they would be like internally,

01:10:01   Apple is working on its next revision of Safari

01:10:04   with a new version of WebKit,

01:10:06   but they're not doing that work out in the open.

01:10:07   At some point, they're gonna plop down a big commit

01:10:11   to the latest version of WebKit.

01:10:13   And that's been getting better with WebKit,

01:10:14   but Swift is even more towards the actual model

01:10:17   that people do with open source projects

01:10:19   in terms of here's the whole history of the entire project

01:10:22   from the beginning.

01:10:23   All the committers have accounts on GitHub,

01:10:25   so you can see all the names attached to them,

01:10:27   and literally the whole, you can go back to 2010

01:10:28   and see the first commit, and just go through the history

01:10:31   of the entire Swift programming language

01:10:33   and see who did what, and look at the commit history

01:10:35   and who contributed the most code when.

01:10:38   The fun thing is you can go to a chart in GitHub

01:10:40   and see little graphs and stuff,

01:10:42   and what you can basically see is either the hire date

01:10:44   or the disclosure date of everyone working on Swift,

01:10:46   because in the beginning, it's just,

01:10:48   Latner is doing everything,

01:10:49   'cause he's the only one who knows anything about it, right?

01:10:51   and then at a certain point a second person comes on,

01:10:53   then a third person, then a fourth person.

01:10:55   If it's not their hire date,

01:10:57   the time before is probably

01:10:58   when they didn't know the project existed

01:11:00   and they were disclosed on it and it's like,

01:11:01   oh, now they see,

01:11:02   so it's like revealing the history of the thing

01:11:04   and they're continuing to work on it in the open.

01:11:08   So much so that there's a roadmap on the site to say,

01:11:10   hey, we're gonna do Swift 2.2

01:11:12   and we're gonna do Swift 3.0

01:11:13   and here's what's planned for it

01:11:14   and here are the proposals

01:11:15   and here are the check-ins that are leading up to it.

01:11:17   So this is totally normal from the perspective

01:11:19   of any regular open source project, like, I don't know,

01:11:22   Apache or Python or whatever, but it is extremely novel

01:11:26   in terms of core technologies in Apple

01:11:28   to be actually real live developed

01:11:30   with a public bug tracker,

01:11:32   where you're seeing future development happening

01:11:34   in real time, they're doing things that are not yet released

01:11:37   in any Apple product and you're seeing them do them

01:11:39   and you can file bugs against them and stuff,

01:11:40   and you can see all the source code.

01:11:42   It is for long suffering Apple technology enthusiasts

01:11:47   a breath of fresh air.

01:11:48   It's really surprising.

01:11:50   And in the last couple of weeks, Apple as a whole has been getting a lot of flack about,

01:11:57   you know, the Mac App Store and potentially their plans for iPhone hardware.

01:12:01   I don't know if you guys heard anything about this headphone thing or not.

01:12:04   But this is really impressive, and this is very un-Apple-like.

01:12:09   And it was funny because earlier today I was listening to Material, which is a podcast

01:12:14   on Relay, about Google stuff.

01:12:15   they had their, you know, Google's VP of Design, whose name I will butcher if I try

01:12:19   to pronounce.

01:12:20   >> MATT: Matias Duarte?

01:12:21   >> CHAD P. WILLIAMS Yes. They—thank you—they had him on their

01:12:25   podcast. And granted, Schiller did go on the talk show, but you don't typically hear

01:12:30   these sorts of things happening with Apple, and this is a very open way of doing open

01:12:35   source, which is just really impressive. I don't know, Marc, you've been quiet so

01:12:37   far. What do you think?

01:12:38   >> MATT: I'm really happy to see this. I mean, you know, as much as I do complain about

01:12:43   things that Apple doesn't do well and does that are hostile to either customers or developers.

01:12:50   In reality, this is a really big move. This is a good move and this is way more open about

01:12:55   this stuff than I expected, for sure. Way more open than they really probably needed

01:13:00   to be and there's a number of things about this that I assume we're going to get to

01:13:04   where like when they first announced that, was it WWDC? When they first announced that

01:13:09   that Swift would be open sourced.

01:13:11   And I thought, and we talked about it back then,

01:13:14   and I said basically that I was reserving

01:13:17   any kind of enthusiasm about this

01:13:19   because I thought it was gonna be more like

01:13:22   how John was saying, more like they've done open source

01:13:24   in the past where it's just kind of like these dumps

01:13:27   and those aren't that useful for the most part.

01:13:30   And I also was concerned about,

01:13:33   I would absolutely love to only master one new language now

01:13:39   to cover both my app development and my web development,

01:13:43   because I don't like web development that much.

01:13:45   I'm not that into it.

01:13:46   I do web development as just a means to an end

01:13:51   to make the apps that I wanna make.

01:13:54   And I've been doing it in PHP for all these years,

01:13:57   and I just now started dipping my toe a little bit in Go,

01:14:00   but I'm not writing whole apps in Go,

01:14:01   I'm just making a few components in Go

01:14:04   that the big PHP app uses.

01:14:06   And I like Go a decent amount, but I don't think I like it

01:14:10   enough to build a whole new web app in it,

01:14:13   or like to port the whole app I have to it.

01:14:15   I don't plan to do that.

01:14:17   And Swift is not my perfect ideal language,

01:14:21   but it's pretty good.

01:14:22   You know, it looks pretty good.

01:14:24   And I know I'm gonna have to learn it

01:14:26   if I wanna keep being an Apple platform developer

01:14:28   for 10 years from now.

01:14:30   I'm gonna have to learn Swift,

01:14:31   and I'm going to do it at some point.

01:14:33   And so it would be nice if I could just learn Swift

01:14:36   and have that also work on the web for my future web needs.

01:14:40   And then I can finally stop using PHP

01:14:43   and use Swift everywhere and really get a nice deep

01:14:47   mastering of this one language and be able to share code

01:14:50   between them, be able to share my own utility libraries,

01:14:53   et cetera, share application level code,

01:14:55   and maybe some of the data layer stuff.

01:14:57   I would love that.

01:14:58   That didn't look like it was gonna happen before

01:15:00   because I was assuming that the open sourcing of Swift

01:15:03   would be similar to the old way

01:15:06   of just dumping things in.

01:15:07   And they didn't say anything about open sourcing foundation

01:15:11   or any of the APIs, and so we all, myself included,

01:15:14   just assumed that the only part that would be open source

01:15:16   would be the core of the language

01:15:18   with the handful of built-in types it has.

01:15:20   There would be effectively no libraries.

01:15:23   And that wouldn't be very useful.

01:15:25   Multiple people would have stepped in

01:15:26   to try to make their own standard libraries

01:15:29   and try to get themselves established

01:15:30   as the standard library, and it would have been a mess,

01:15:32   just like JavaScript frameworks,

01:15:33   it would have been a total mess.

01:15:35   But what has actually happened, they're outlining a plan

01:15:38   to actually convert Foundation to Swift and open source it

01:15:42   and include it in this package.

01:15:44   So, and I'm sure, you know, not every API

01:15:47   is gonna be available in this open source way,

01:15:49   but what this does is this gives people a way

01:15:52   to actually build, say, a web app that runs,

01:15:56   a web app backend that runs in Swift on a Linux server

01:16:01   and also runs on iOS where they could actually share

01:16:04   a meaningful amount of underlying code and libraries.

01:16:07   And that is really cool.

01:16:09   That I was not expecting at all.

01:16:11   And I'm really happy to see that.

01:16:12   'Cause now that makes this interesting.

01:16:14   That makes this beyond just like an academic curiosity

01:16:19   of oh, maybe I could toy around and get, you know,

01:16:21   Darwin running on my Linux server.

01:16:23   No, this is like actually potentially useful

01:16:25   in the real world.

01:16:26   And no offense to Darwin.

01:16:28   (laughing)

01:16:29   - You know, like we knew that they were gonna do Linux,

01:16:31   though, 'cause they announced that at WWDC, right?

01:16:33   - We knew they would do Linux,

01:16:34   but we didn't know that there would be any libraries

01:16:37   beyond the built-in Swift types.

01:16:38   - Right, well, so when they said

01:16:40   they were gonna do a Linux, like that was the other,

01:16:41   you know, in between the slides

01:16:43   when they said they were gonna open source in the slide

01:16:44   when they put the word Linux on the screen,

01:16:46   what I was thinking was a reasonable fear was like,

01:16:49   no matter what you do with open sourcing,

01:16:52   that's well and good, but they're gonna open source

01:16:54   basically Swift so you can run it on Macs, right, on OS X,

01:16:59   right, 'cause there are OS ties to the whole thing.

01:17:00   So it's like, oh, well, great,

01:17:01   if you have a Mac, you can do it,

01:17:03   but it's gonna be useless on the server

01:17:04   because nobody uses Mac servers.

01:17:06   So it's a shame that even though Swift will be open source,

01:17:09   it's going to be up to the community to figure out

01:17:10   how the hell to get it to work on Linux.

01:17:12   And then two slides later, it's like,

01:17:13   "Oh, Linux, Apple's doing that part.

01:17:15   "Why would Apple do that part?"

01:17:17   Well, Apple has servers too, right?

01:17:19   And they're probably not running OS X at this point.

01:17:21   God, I hope they're not, right?

01:17:23   They have server-side stuff.

01:17:25   And why would Apple waste its time doing a Linux port?

01:17:29   And believe me, they would not do it

01:17:30   out of the goodness of their heart to say,

01:17:31   "See, it's really portable.

01:17:32   "Look, we did a Linux port," right?

01:17:33   They're doing it for themselves, and they eventually basically have the same needs as

01:17:38   Marco, which is like, well, it's great that we can run Swift on the server, but if we

01:17:42   want to share any significant amount of code between our client and our server, it would

01:17:45   be great to at least have Foundation.

01:17:46   You know what I mean?

01:17:47   That would be nice.

01:17:50   I suppose they could just bring the Objective-C runtime to Linux as well, if it's not already

01:17:54   there.

01:17:55   But what they chose to do instead, which I think is the most exciting thing, I knew they'd

01:17:59   have something like this to be able to run on Linux, because why the hell else would

01:18:01   Apple wants to use it for the same thing Marco wants to use it for, only on a much larger

01:18:06   scale, right? But what they did instead was tick the hardware over, which is like, we're

01:18:09   not going to use the Objective-C runtime on Linux and let you use Swift on Linux with

01:18:14   Foundation on Linux, with core Foundation in C and Foundation in Objective-C. They could

01:18:20   have done that and it would have worked fine. Instead, they have not done this yet, but

01:18:24   they are undertaking the effort to port Foundation to Swift. And they're doing it—you can look

01:18:28   at the source repository and see like all the empty implementations were like

01:18:31   not yet implemented but the you know the function is there this is one of the

01:18:34   projects they're doing and I don't know what kind of schedule it's on me I think

01:18:38   maybe they were saying by like 3.0 they would have the whole thing ported or

01:18:41   whatever so it's still gonna be core foundation straight C underneath the

01:18:45   covers that was already portable for the most port or core foundation light or

01:18:48   whatever had been open source and then on top of that they're gonna go from

01:18:52   from that point Swift all the way up so anything that used to be in foundation

01:18:57   it was Objective-C, they're re-implementing in Swift.

01:19:00   I'm still a little bit confused about how they're going to do Swift string versus NS

01:19:05   string and by the way, this is the other exciting thing about this, they're finally dropping

01:19:09   the NS prefix from all the Foundation stuff, they're taking this opportunity, this re-implementation

01:19:13   in Swift to drop all the NS's, which for people who don't know, it always cracks me up, I

01:19:18   was Googling this earlier to see when the NS was added, because I believe it was added

01:19:21   at some point in the history of Next, but NS stands for Next Step.

01:19:24   And so all these new Mac developers who have no idea what the hell Next is,

01:19:27   but really like programming this for months and going through tutorials and

01:19:30   whatever, going, why the hell are all the APIs being with NS?

01:19:34   Doesn't make any sense. I can't figure out what that means. Next step. Um,

01:19:37   but it's silly for it to be there and now it's the perfect opportunity to

01:19:40   remove it. So then how the hell do you distinguish between Swift dot string and

01:19:44   formerly NS string, which I guess would just become string. I mean,

01:19:48   you can understand for namespacing, like they would be,

01:19:50   they'll be distinguishable, but, and I know they're like, you know, uh,

01:19:54   bridge to each other like a zero cross bridge, you know, array and NS array and behind the

01:19:58   scenes and all that stuff, but it's potentially confusing.

01:20:00   So like am I using pure Swift with Swift strings or am I using Swift with foundation in Swift

01:20:06   with Swift used to be NS strings but are actually strings.

01:20:09   Anyway, I'm sure they'll work it out, but the bottom line is they're clearly not taking

01:20:13   the easy road here.

01:20:14   They're, you're not going to say they're leaving the Objective-C runtime behind because obviously

01:20:18   they're not because they've got bazillion lines of Objective-C code and that will be

01:20:21   maintained and enhanced for the future, obviously.

01:20:24   But the foundation, literally, the foundation of their programming language stack is going

01:20:30   to be written in Swift.

01:20:32   It's C core foundation, and then it's going to be Swift foundation, and then the Swift

01:20:37   standard library and all the Swift stuff on top of it.

01:20:39   So this is very exciting, and it's exciting not only that they're saying they're doing

01:20:44   this, this isn't done yet.

01:20:45   This is the type of thing like in the old Apple would not even announce that they're

01:20:48   doing this until the next WWDC.

01:20:50   They're telling you that they're doing it,

01:20:51   even though it's not done.

01:20:52   You can see how far they've gotten.

01:20:54   And like I said, they tell you what there's gonna be

01:20:55   in Swift 2.2, they tell you what you're gonna be

01:20:57   on Swift 3.0, they have a system whereby you can propose

01:21:00   things to be in Swift 3.1 or 4.0 and your proposals

01:21:03   can get accepted and incorporated and you can submit patches

01:21:05   and everything, it's actual open source development.

01:21:08   - Yeah, it's really cool.

01:21:10   And this makes me interested in learning the language

01:21:13   at some point soon.

01:21:15   I'm still not gonna jump on it like today or next week.

01:21:18   - Yeah, don't spend too much time learning

01:21:20   the plus plus and minus minus operator.

01:21:22   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:21:23   Yeah, but, and one thing that I probably will wait for

01:21:26   is that they mention that they are not,

01:21:30   so they talk about the goals for the big 3.0 release

01:21:33   that'll be in late 2016, which is, you know,

01:21:36   so a year from now, but they say that they're not going

01:21:38   to address concurrency primitives,

01:21:41   or you know, concurrency built-ins in the language

01:21:44   until after 3.0.

01:21:45   I think I do want to wait to really master the language until the concurrency story is

01:21:50   worked out, because that's pretty important.

01:21:51   You'll always have an excuse to wait.

01:21:53   No, no, no.

01:21:54   I'm saying to really master it.

01:21:55   I didn't say to start learning it or to start using it, but I do want to see how that shakes

01:21:59   out because that's kind of important in the modern environment.

01:22:01   I mean, that's, you know.

01:22:02   Well, that's why Go is going to be better for your server-side things, because Go is

01:22:05   already, like, you're using those features in Go and they're really handy.

01:22:08   And I mean, I guess you, like, what they're saying is, for now, this is a library thing.

01:22:12   Use lib dispatch, right?

01:22:13   Which is not terrible.

01:22:14   And you're already kind of familiar with it from using it in your existing apps.

01:22:18   Is libdispatch available?

01:22:19   I mean, it's because it's open source itself, right?

01:22:22   Yeah, I mean, basically, I think over there the exact text of the thing was they're saying,

01:22:27   for now, before we address this in the language, libraries are the answer.

01:22:31   So use pthreads, use libdispatch, use whatever the hell you want to use.

01:22:34   It's a library problem, not a language problem.

01:22:36   But Go decided that it's important enough to be part of the language, and it makes stuff

01:22:39   easier.

01:22:40   It's going to be, because when you mention like, oh, you know, like writing a server-side

01:22:44   web framework equivalent to your PHP one or even equivalent to the simple servers you're

01:22:48   doing in Go, there's a lot of library work that if Apple has done it, we're not seeing

01:22:52   it yet.

01:22:53   And so it's up to the community to actually do that part of it, I think.

01:22:57   So in Under the Radar #2, Ewan_ talked about basically, "Meh, we'll get there when we

01:23:02   get there."

01:23:03   And now it sounds like you're kind of rethinking that.

01:23:07   makes it being open source make it so much more appealing to you? Because you're not

01:23:11   about to be contributing, you know, pull requests or anything like that. So why does it being

01:23:16   open source suddenly change your opinion?

01:23:18   >> Well, because now mastering Swift now has more value to me, because now there's a chance

01:23:24   that I can use it on the server side as well. And there's now a roadmap in site where that

01:23:30   is looking likely and plausible and potentially very good. So that's the big reason. Now,

01:23:37   It isn't just, oh, just learn how to do everything

01:23:40   I've already been doing on the same platform

01:23:42   with no possible other impact besides just, you know,

01:23:46   the language's built-in benefits,

01:23:48   which I don't care that strongly about yet.

01:23:51   Now, it's also, you know,

01:23:53   I need to learn a better website language, I really do.

01:23:57   I am constantly hitting PHP's limits,

01:23:59   and I'm constantly running into problems with it

01:24:03   whenever I do new development,

01:24:05   And it's not that I, you know, it's not that, you know,

01:24:07   PHP is constantly crashing or anything,

01:24:09   but it seems like it's on shaky ground.

01:24:11   That, you know, I've expressed before that I just don't,

01:24:13   I don't need to convince people why I don't like PHP.

01:24:16   That I don't really believe that its leadership

01:24:19   is taking it in good directions.

01:24:20   Not like it ever has, but, you know,

01:24:22   it's finally starting to affect me.

01:24:24   But anyway, so I want to get off PHP

01:24:29   sooner rather than later, but I also don't think Go

01:24:33   is the answer necessarily.

01:24:35   Like it's good enough for now, but I'm still looking

01:24:37   for a better overall web language to switch to,

01:24:40   and I don't think it's gonna be,

01:24:41   I don't think Go's gonna end up being it.

01:24:43   For this to potentially step into that role,

01:24:45   then this gives me a really big reason to learn Swift.

01:24:49   Not to mention the code sharing benefits.

01:24:52   If I can have, if I can have like the model layers

01:24:56   shared between like say Overcast and its web component,

01:25:00   stuff like that, there's a lot of benefits

01:25:02   to having that kind of code sharing potential.

01:25:04   and even simple things.

01:25:06   Like right now, the main reason why

01:25:10   the Overcast web interface does not have playlists

01:25:13   is because I don't wanna have to port the code

01:25:17   that the playlists use to order themselves,

01:25:20   which is a very complicated piece of just a C code.

01:25:22   I don't wanna port that to PHP

01:25:24   because it's gonna be a massive amount of work

01:25:27   to get it right and it's gonna be buggy

01:25:28   and I don't want, it's just not worth it.

01:25:31   If I can, you know, there's opportunities like that

01:25:33   where like, oh, if I could just do the same thing

01:25:34   both sides, that would be a much more easily solved problem. So, you know, I'm looking

01:25:40   forward to a future where I can just master one, because that's my style. My style is

01:25:45   not to learn 60 different languages and to have a shallow proficiency in each of them.

01:25:50   My style is to really master one thing and use it forever, use it until everyone's making

01:25:55   fun of me for using it and then finally switch. So that's what got me here and I think I would

01:26:01   love for Swift to be the next language to do that with, and this now shows me that that

01:26:06   has a good chance of being possible.

01:26:07   Plus you can make your own web framework in Swift because there won't be one. Well, there

01:26:11   probably will be one pretty soon, but yeah.

01:26:13   Well, there are already a couple, but yeah.

01:26:15   I know, but like now, based on the new foundation and based on all the new stuff, like that

01:26:19   wasn't part of Apple's open source dump. It's like, "And by the way, here's what we're using

01:26:22   for our server-side Swift," because Apple is surely using server-side Swift, and how

01:26:25   they're incorporating it, I'm not sure, but there is no equivalent to, you know, whatever

01:26:30   your favorite web framework, or even equivalent--

01:26:32   I don't think there's even an equivalent

01:26:34   to the simple server port listening stuff that's

01:26:36   in the Go standard libraries, is there?

01:26:38   No, absolutely not.

01:26:40   No, I mean, is the networking stuff even ported yet?

01:26:43   Well, yeah, but just the network.

01:26:45   But you need something like coroutines or an event-driven

01:26:47   loop, or you need something to handle processing more

01:26:50   than one request at once.

01:26:51   You know what I mean?

01:26:53   Anyway, yeah, so there is an opportunity

01:26:56   for people who want to do something potentially

01:27:00   dramatic and something that has a big footprint and a big effect.

01:27:04   The first person to make a really good web framework in server-side Swift will have the

01:27:09   attention of everybody who's in the same situation as Marco, which is I've got an iOS app and

01:27:14   I would love to be able to share the faceless components between the server and the client.

01:27:19   I don't want to have to think about all the crap about running a server, listening to

01:27:22   a port, dispatching based on URLs and stuff.

01:27:24   I want a fairly simple but reliable, fast framework to do that for me.

01:27:29   If someone makes one, I will use it.

01:27:30   Because you just want to plug in your model code.

01:27:32   You don't want to deal with request routing and parsing

01:27:34   HTTP headers and crap like that.

01:27:37   Yeah, ideally, that should all be handled

01:27:39   by any modern framework.

01:27:41   There's no reason for web programmers

01:27:43   to be doing that stuff manually anymore.

01:27:45   Yep.

01:27:45   And PHP, the standard library, handles it

01:27:47   and Go has standard library functions and things like that.

01:27:50   But Swift, that's the gap in Swift functionality.

01:27:52   A couple more points that we'll probably continue this topic

01:27:55   in future shows, but we don't want

01:27:56   to drag this one out too long.

01:27:57   and the topic of Apple being more open,

01:28:01   Craig Federighi, who I figured what,

01:28:03   he's like the head of all software at Apple,

01:28:04   I don't know what his title is,

01:28:05   he is making the rounds to the websites.

01:28:08   I saw him interviewed at Ars Technica,

01:28:10   I think he talked to, I don't know,

01:28:12   maybe the Nextweb or a bunch of other websites

01:28:14   that read reviews where Craig Federighi

01:28:16   talked to a bunch of websites

01:28:18   about the Swift Open Source Project.

01:28:19   When has that happened?

01:28:20   That is definitely a new Apple thing,

01:28:21   like that they send out one of their guys

01:28:24   to make the rounds of the, relatively speaking,

01:28:27   you know, dinky little websites.

01:28:29   Like, you know, you'd see Steve Jobs go on CNN or something

01:28:34   and talk to the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times,

01:28:36   but that's it.

01:28:37   But now, Craig Federighi is talking to the,

01:28:40   I guess the second tier websites.

01:28:42   - Yeah, the tech press.

01:28:44   - Yeah.

01:28:45   - Well, 'cause CNN doesn't wanna hear

01:28:46   about open source Swift basically,

01:28:47   but no, this is great.

01:28:49   - Yeah, I think this is a great, I mean, you know,

01:28:51   he's going and he's saying the same things

01:28:53   to every different website or whatever,

01:28:54   but it is, I don't know, it just makes me feel better

01:28:57   of like, yeah, see what you can do Apple,

01:28:59   just like regular PR.

01:29:00   In some ways Apple was,

01:29:01   I always looked on them as interesting and special

01:29:03   because they didn't do regular PR.

01:29:04   Like every other company,

01:29:05   anything they do that they think is even remotely important,

01:29:07   they're like a proud little child.

01:29:08   See what I made?

01:29:09   See, look, see, look at this,

01:29:10   put it on the refrigerator, right?

01:29:11   And Apple would just be like, we say nothing.

01:29:13   We talk to you this number of times a year,

01:29:15   everything else we do,

01:29:16   maybe there's a press release on our site,

01:29:17   but we're not gonna talk to you.

01:29:19   Just reblog our press release, like, or don't,

01:29:21   we don't care, like whatever.

01:29:22   But now they're actually saying,

01:29:24   hey, we've got Craig Federighi here,

01:29:25   you want to talk to him? He wants to talk to you about open-source Swift. Hey, like

01:29:28   to the tech websites. And so that's just weird and god I think that the

01:29:33   websites don't even know how to handle it. Like a lot of these websites are not

01:29:37   accustomed to interviewing an executive and then writing an article based on

01:29:42   that interview with Apple executives because it's like so do I just transcribe

01:29:47   exactly what they said even though their sentence doesn't quite make sense or do

01:29:50   I clean it up a little bit but then will they be afraid I'm misquoting them and

01:29:53   So some of them, it seems like awkward.

01:29:55   It's like, "Oh, I didn't think you'd actually show up.

01:29:58   "Is this really you?

01:29:59   "I guess let's talk about Swift for five minutes

01:30:02   "and then I'll write something about it.

01:30:03   "This is totally weird."

01:30:04   So it definitely feels weird.

01:30:07   I mean, it wouldn't be weirder

01:30:08   if it was Chris Latner talking to everybody,

01:30:11   but Craig Federighi makes sense.

01:30:13   He's the head of the whole software department,

01:30:15   and he's gonna tell you why Apple is open-source in Swift

01:30:17   and why it's a good idea.

01:30:18   So I'll put a link to the "Ars" article,

01:30:19   but you can see a bunch of other things around,

01:30:21   and this is definitely a glasnost, I guess,

01:30:25   is the appropriate Cold War metaphor for this.

01:30:28   So I thought that was exciting

01:30:30   and I hope to see more of that.

01:30:32   Like, you know, do it every time, every single thing you do,

01:30:34   but Oberyn's Army Swift is significant

01:30:36   and a lot to send out an emissary, essentially.

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01:32:41   - We only have one more thing to add about Swift

01:32:43   for this show.

01:32:44   We're gonna talk more about open source Swift

01:32:45   for the next show, I'm sure,

01:32:46   'cause we just put a big dividing line

01:32:47   in the notes about it.

01:32:48   But the one thing we forgot to mention

01:32:50   is what license is this?

01:32:51   What open source license is it?

01:32:53   And it is the Apache 2.0 license,

01:32:55   with a special exception to not require you

01:32:58   to open source stuff that you build

01:33:00   into like a single library or something

01:33:01   that happens to start to pull in some of the Swift runtime,

01:33:04   then it's saying that you don't have to open source that one.

01:33:06   It's okay that if you bind with the Swift standard library or whatever, it doesn't mean

01:33:11   that you have to suddenly open source your whole application.

01:33:13   So it's a very permissive license, it's not GPL because Apple's a commercial company and

01:33:17   they would never do GPL because it is intentionally viral and Apple doesn't like the virality

01:33:22   of that particular, of the constraints enforced by the GPL.

01:33:26   So I think for the most part, no one is surprised by the license, and for the most part, the

01:33:31   expected people are happy about it and the expected people aren't happy about it.

01:33:34   is a fun, this is actually for the next week, I think we can mention it briefly, this is

01:33:39   a thing with a lot of open source projects where where you put the source code isn't

01:33:44   necessarily the same place where you want people to file bugs.

01:33:47   So GitHub, like many places that you can put source code for, also has what they call an

01:33:51   issue tracker, which is basically a bug tracker.

01:33:54   But Apple of course has its own bug tracker called Radar, and Swift does not use the issue

01:33:59   tracker on GitHub.

01:34:01   It has its own website, it's like bugs.swift.org, and I think that's where they want you to

01:34:05   file the bugs, unless they want you to file a radar.

01:34:07   It's a little bit confusing.

01:34:08   I guess you'd start at Swift.org and eventually you'd be led to the right place.

01:34:10   But the bottom line is, on GitHub, you can't, I think, add issues, but you can issue pull

01:34:16   requests.

01:34:17   So someone immediately made a pull request to change the license to like GPL or something,

01:34:20   and then a million people trolled the thread with animated GIFs and stuff.

01:34:24   So we'll put that link in the show notes as well, so you can enjoy looking at the first

01:34:29   trolling pull request on GitHub for Swift.

01:34:31   And of course it has to do with the license,

01:34:33   which as far as I'm concerned, I don't care about.

01:34:36   I think they picked the right license for their purpose

01:34:38   and it's fine, but other people do care about it.

01:34:40   And so there you have it.

01:34:43   - All right, any other thoughts before next week?

01:34:45   We're just gonna hold for then?

01:34:48   - Yeah, we're gonna hold more.

01:34:49   There's more to talk about and we'll probably go more

01:34:51   in depth in the same topics for next week.

01:34:53   And hopefully by next week we'll know more about this.

01:34:56   - Yeah, 'cause this week, as we record this,

01:34:57   We only have something like four hours of knowledge

01:35:01   of this so far.

01:35:02   So yeah, we'll see what happens.

01:35:04   All right, overall, good week.

01:35:06   We still have our headphone jack

01:35:07   and Swift had a lot of good stuff, so I'm happy.

01:35:10   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:35:12   Harry's, Warby Parker, and Cards Against Humanity,

01:35:15   and we will see you next week, or hear you next week,

01:35:17   or speak to you.

01:35:18   You ruined my phrase.

01:35:19   - Just keep saying it the same way

01:35:21   you've always been saying it, it works fine.

01:35:22   - You will hear us next week.

01:35:24   - No, don't say that, that's terrible.

01:35:26   - What?

01:35:27   say and we will see you next week. You had a thing. It's a thing. People need repetition

01:35:33   of familiar phrases and beats in the story structure that is our podcast to feel at home.

01:35:39   Don't mess with it.

01:35:40   Good grief.

01:35:41   And we'll see you next week.

01:35:43   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:35:50   Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:35:57   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:36:02   Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:36:07   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:36:11   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:36:21   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M.

01:36:26   And T-Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A.

01:36:33   It's accidental.

01:36:35   It's accidental.

01:36:36   They didn't mean to.

01:36:39   Accidental.

01:36:40   So ask the national tech podcast so long.

01:36:46   I don't ask much of iCloud.

01:36:49   I use Dropbox.

01:36:50   I don't really use iCloud Drive.

01:36:52   I know a lot of people do.

01:36:53   But I was like, you know what?

01:36:54   iCloud Drive is probably OK, but Dropbox works for me.

01:36:57   I should just keep using it.

01:36:59   But in other aspects, I want to trust iCloud.

01:37:01   When the new notes came out and it changed the back end

01:37:04   from IMAP to iCloud syncing, I was glad.

01:37:06   And I started using it.

01:37:07   and for the most part it's been working.

01:37:10   And so my daughter has been writing,

01:37:12   she writes stories a lot

01:37:13   and she started wanting to write one by typing

01:37:15   instead of by writing on a notepad.

01:37:17   She does both, but she also wanted to have one

01:37:19   that she was typing.

01:37:20   And I wanted to set her up, say, okay, here you go,

01:37:23   you can type something.

01:37:24   And I figured this is a perfect opportunity to use Pages.

01:37:27   She's got the latest version of Pages.

01:37:30   She's also got it on her iPad

01:37:31   with the latest version of us, the latest version of Pages.

01:37:33   She just wants to type a story, just words, on a page.

01:37:38   Not very demanding.

01:37:40   And it would be nice if she could do it in both places,

01:37:43   right?

01:37:44   Pages is integrated with iCloud, and you make a document,

01:37:46   and she could type it on the computer.

01:37:48   And then if she's in her room with the iPad,

01:37:50   she could continue typing it on the iPad.

01:37:52   Seemed like the ideal opportunity.

01:37:54   And I'm not going to do page layout.

01:37:56   I'm not doing anything fancy here.

01:37:58   Could have maybe used text edit, but I said,

01:38:00   why don't I use pages?

01:38:01   in the head of integration and vaguely I was thinking of that iWork website, I forget if

01:38:05   it's even gone or whatever.

01:38:06   But anyway, so I set her up on the Mac to use Pages and she's typing along and typing

01:38:10   along and then I realized she hadn't ever saved and I showed her about saving, which

01:38:14   is sad the first time you have to show your kids about saving, kids who were brought up

01:38:16   in the iOS era, like saving?

01:38:18   What are you even talking about?

01:38:19   Like it's such an alien concept, it doesn't make any sense and like this is the thing

01:38:23   you have to do, why do you have to just, anyway, go through the whole thing and I said, and

01:38:29   And I didn't go into the open save dialog box.

01:38:31   I'm just like, look, I'll bring it to the right place.

01:38:33   I'm-- suffice it to say, this is a thing

01:38:34   you have to do by hitting Command S

01:38:36   or selecting this command every once in a while.

01:38:38   But to initially start, I will give the thing a name,

01:38:40   and I will put it in iCloud Drive.

01:38:42   That's when I pick the iCloud Drive from the option,

01:38:44   she saves, and she's typing along.

01:38:46   That works fine for a day or two.

01:38:49   And then at some point, I said, you know--

01:38:51   I think she needed to get kicked off the computer,

01:38:53   kicked out of the room or something.

01:38:54   I'm like, well, you can continue writing this on your iPad.

01:38:57   And she's not surprised by it, or impressed by the way.

01:38:59   She's like, all right, fine.

01:39:01   And then I loaded Pages up on her iPad,

01:39:05   and I tried to open the document that she had just

01:39:07   been editing on the Mac, and it wouldn't open.

01:39:12   And so I'm like, well, what is this complaint?

01:39:14   She's like, the document is being modified or something?

01:39:16   I'm like, is it complaining because I still

01:39:18   have it open on the Mac?

01:39:19   That's messed up, but fine, whatever.

01:39:21   I'll close it on the Mac and open it on the iPad.

01:39:23   And eventually it opened on the iPad,

01:39:25   and she started typing stuff.

01:39:27   And of course there's no, you know, like, saving action going on there.

01:39:30   And then she was done with that and quit it and it was gone.

01:39:34   And then eventually she came back to the Mac and said I want to continue my writing now.

01:39:38   And we went to open pages and opened the document and it gave some dialog boxes like this document

01:39:43   can't be opened right now.

01:39:44   I think it said also because it's being modified, who knows what the hell the mess it was.

01:39:47   Bottom line was you couldn't open it.

01:39:48   Double clicking it didn't work.

01:39:50   Opening it from the application didn't work.

01:39:52   Then I tried to open it on the iPad.

01:39:53   Also wouldn't open on the iPad.

01:39:54   And I'm like, "I'm not asking the world of you.

01:39:57   This is Apple hardware, Apple software, latest version, latest version of application, latest

01:40:02   version of the OS.

01:40:04   I just want to edit the same document in two different places.

01:40:06   And now I can't open it anywhere.

01:40:09   And my daughter is upset.

01:40:10   Justifiably so, because previously everything was fine.

01:40:13   I was writing on my Mac.

01:40:14   And because dad wanted us to say, "Even though we're kicking you out of the room, you can

01:40:17   write it on your iPad."

01:40:18   Now I can't open it anywhere and maybe it's gone.

01:40:21   And so I have to fix this problem by figuring out what the hell the deal is.

01:40:25   Like I tried everything you can imagine.

01:40:28   Eventually I tried copying the document out of the iCloud thing and like opening it and

01:40:33   pulling out the text and copying and pasting it to a new text document.

01:40:37   And I said, "All right, well, so much for iCloud Drive.

01:40:39   Screw this.

01:40:40   I'm putting it in Dropbox."

01:40:41   So iCloud Drive was cut out of the equation.

01:40:44   I put the thing in Dropbox.

01:40:45   Now I'm terrified to even try to open it on the iPad because that may end up hosing the

01:40:49   thing again. But I thought I was in the clear. I'm like, I saved it in Dropbox, she doesn't

01:40:54   know where it's saved, so now it's saved in Dropbox. I told her, "Can't use it on the

01:40:57   iPad anymore because that doesn't work. That crap doesn't work." And I had to move it out

01:41:02   of iCloud Drive for her. This is just a total failure of the most simple thing you can possibly

01:41:06   do. A single person editing a single document in iCloud Drive on everything perfect and

01:41:10   just abject total failure. Not even it didn't work or didn't sync or whatever. We got to

01:41:15   the point where you couldn't open the document at all. Then she decided to write a new story.

01:41:19   And so I showed her how to make a new document.

01:41:21   And she was typing for a while.

01:41:22   And I came in, and once again, she had not

01:41:23   saved for 20 minutes.

01:41:25   And I said, oh, you have to save that, right?

01:41:27   And I went to Save.

01:41:28   And I'm saving in Dropbox now instead

01:41:30   of saving on iCloud Drive.

01:41:32   So I hit Save.

01:41:33   It asked me for a file name because it had never

01:41:35   been given a name before.

01:41:35   I type in a name for it, hit the Save button,

01:41:38   and it says, "Untitled could not be read."

01:41:40   Boop, pops me back.

01:41:42   Didn't save.

01:41:43   I try to save again.

01:41:44   I try Save As.

01:41:45   Saving it in a different location, not in Dropbox,

01:41:48   on a regular disk says untitled could not reread.

01:41:50   Boop sends me back to the document.

01:41:51   I'm like, are you serious now?

01:41:52   I've made a new document.

01:41:54   I can't even save it to the local file system.

01:41:57   This is just the brokenest thing I've ever seen in my life.

01:42:00   Like seriously, you know, VI, Emacs,

01:42:02   I just want to make a damn text document

01:42:04   and save it to the local disk.

01:42:06   I don't know what was wrong.

01:42:07   At this point, I don't even care.

01:42:08   Like I feel like just burning pages to the ground

01:42:11   and just never looking at it again.

01:42:13   I don't know what the problem is.

01:42:15   Like, is it because the new document

01:42:17   was automatically made in iCloud and something hosed.

01:42:19   And by the way, the ghost of the old document

01:42:21   that was in iCloud is still there.

01:42:23   It's like this half package thing that I can't delete

01:42:25   because error negative 37 in the finder

01:42:27   or some crap like that.

01:42:28   So maybe I've just entirely hosed her iCloud drive.

01:42:31   And because when you make a new document,

01:42:32   it auto saves it to iCloud,

01:42:34   the very fact of me trying to save it to local disk

01:42:36   has to read the document from iCloud,

01:42:38   but iCloud drive won't let you read it

01:42:40   because it thinks it's in use.

01:42:42   Utterly horrifying.

01:42:44   Complete failure of the most simple thing

01:42:46   you could possibly do with pages,

01:42:47   which is make a text document.

01:42:50   And it just boggled my mind.

01:42:52   And I just thought, what would regular people do?

01:42:54   They would never try pages again.

01:42:55   I probably will never try pages again.

01:42:57   Unfortunately, now she kinda knows how to use pages

01:42:59   and knows how to change the font and stuff,

01:43:01   so I'm afraid to switch or edit that into TextEdit.

01:43:03   But I'm like, maybe I should send it to Microsoft Word.

01:43:05   At least I know it'll friggin' be able to save documents.

01:43:08   Or Google Docs, for crying out loud.

01:43:10   I know Google Docs will work, we use it all the time.

01:43:12   All of us edit this document,

01:43:13   and at no time are we all not able to open this document.

01:43:16   In no time are we not able to save it.

01:43:18   Like, Apple, what is going on?

01:43:21   I don't even want to think-- and still,

01:43:24   as I sit here right now, in her iCloud Drive

01:43:26   is the ghost of some ancient pages file

01:43:29   patching that I literally cannot delete from the Finder.

01:43:32   I don't know.

01:43:33   It is one of the most depressing experiences

01:43:36   I've had with Apple server-side software in years.

01:43:40   It's saying a lot.

01:43:43   Seriously, though, can you think of something-- obviously,

01:43:46   the data loss would be worse.

01:43:47   The only thing I can think of that would be worse

01:43:48   is like data loss.

01:43:49   And it would have led to data loss if someone wasn't there

01:43:51   who didn't realize that you could select all copy and paste

01:43:54   into a new thing and find your way out of it.

01:43:56   But for a brief period of time,

01:43:59   I could not open up her original Pages document anywhere.

01:44:01   Couldn't open it on any Mac,

01:44:03   couldn't open it on any iOS device.

01:44:04   Every time you tried to open it, it would give you an error.

01:44:06   And it was the only copy of the file that we had.

01:44:09   - You've learned a lesson that I'm slowly learning

01:44:11   over the last couple of months,

01:44:12   which is that I think for maximum happiness,

01:44:16   it is best to keep a little bit more distance

01:44:20   from Apple's stuff than what we've been keeping.

01:44:23   And for me, I'm rethinking my use of photos,

01:44:29   I'm rethinking my use of any kind of iCloud backend stuff,

01:44:33   rethinking whether I even wanna keep wearing

01:44:35   the Apple Watch, there's a lot of things where like,

01:44:38   Apple right now, they're so big,

01:44:41   doing so much stuff, they're spread so thin, so much of Apple's stuff is in this kind

01:44:47   of 1.0 or beta state recently with no end in sight, and it seems like the direction

01:44:54   the company is going is towards being even more spread thin and having even more like

01:45:01   1.0 half-finished products. It's important for people like us who care about our computing

01:45:08   life happiness, our stability, our data integrity.

01:45:13   I think it's important for us to start realizing

01:45:15   going all in on Apple is not best for our happiness anymore.

01:45:19   And it's best to kind of keep some distance

01:45:21   and maybe have a Mac and an iPhone,

01:45:23   but not every iPad plus the Apple TV,

01:45:26   plus every phone every year, plus the Apple Watch,

01:45:28   plus using all the new services, Apple Music

01:45:31   and Photo Library Cloud and all sorts of stuff.

01:45:34   Maybe not having everything.

01:45:36   I think for me, mostly what I'm--

01:45:38   I've already known this and have mostly been doing this,

01:45:41   is stick to the products that are really important to Apple.

01:45:43   Photos is way more important than pages to Apple.

01:45:45   And it shows, I feel like.

01:45:48   And things like iCloud Drive, where there's already

01:45:50   an alternative that I've been using that works for me,

01:45:52   like Dropbox, don't switch to iCloud Drive

01:45:55   just because it's Apple's thing, because you already have

01:45:58   Dropbox and it already does that.

01:46:00   I use Gmail.

01:46:02   Pretty much no matter what Apple does with Apple's mail

01:46:04   application and iCloud mail, I will never switch from Gmail unless Gmail starts being

01:46:08   unsatisfactory to me, right? So that's the whole thing is like, just because Apple makes

01:46:12   a version of a thing that you already have in like, don't switch to it because you think

01:46:16   the Apple thing is going to be better, right? Only switch when you were dissatisfied with

01:46:20   the thing that you have. So I'm not dissatisfied with Dropbox. So I mean, the reason I did

01:46:23   it for my daughter is I'm giving her a different like, I'm, I'm thinking a different standard

01:46:27   for her. I'm like, she has nothing now. So maybe if she just starts off as an iCloud

01:46:32   person right from day one and puts all our stuff on iCloud drive maybe it'll

01:46:35   work out fine for I already have you know investment in Dropbox my stuff in

01:46:39   Dropbox my habits formed on Dropbox but Dropbox is a third-party company you

01:46:42   could get acquired by somebody could go out of business for my kids I feel like

01:46:45   if you just start straight up Apple and you just have you know one account and

01:46:50   everything is on your Apple ID or whatever won't that be simpler for you

01:46:53   it's less for me to explain like it's bad enough that my mother still insists

01:46:56   on having two email addresses the pain it caused me is just tremendous

01:47:00   Tremendous amount of pain.

01:47:02   One is for spam, I guess you were wondering.

01:47:04   (laughing)

01:47:07   And honestly, I've kind of done that with my kids too,

01:47:09   because I don't trust,

01:47:11   because I'm so distrustful of Apple Mail,

01:47:14   I gave them both Gmail accounts as well.

01:47:16   So they have, and that is, you know,

01:47:19   it could be confusing to them if they revealed the confusion

01:47:22   but I just hid the Apple Mail app on their iOS devices

01:47:25   so they just see the Gmail icon is how they get their mail,

01:47:27   you know what I mean?

01:47:29   But for this, I made a different choice

01:47:31   than I would have for myself, basically.

01:47:32   'Cause I would never have done this,

01:47:33   I don't use iCloud Drive, but for them,

01:47:34   I decided to do it and it was a mistake.

01:47:36   So I really need to trust my instincts more on,

01:47:39   if it's really, really important to Apple,

01:47:41   it has a much higher chance than if it's like,

01:47:43   well, we'll update it sometimes.

01:47:45   - I mean, I think it's,

01:47:47   maybe a healthy way to look at this would be,

01:47:50   you know, in the last 10 years or so,

01:47:53   we keep going more and more towards integration

01:47:56   and these, an increasingly smaller number of companies

01:48:00   that each increasingly offer a larger number of services

01:48:03   and products that people are expected to kind of go all in

01:48:06   on one company for.

01:48:07   So you're all in the Apple ecosystem,

01:48:08   or you're all in the Google ecosystem or whatever.

01:48:10   And I think what maybe a better way to look at this

01:48:15   is kind of like the danger of a monoculture

01:48:19   and that if you're all in on anything,

01:48:21   that it makes you vulnerable to problems.

01:48:24   and maybe the healthier thing to do

01:48:26   is to maintain diversity in the things that you use

01:48:29   and the things you rely on.

01:48:30   So, you know, I'm all in on Apple stuff in a lot of ways,

01:48:34   but I don't use iCloud Drive,

01:48:35   because that feels like a little too much

01:48:37   in a way that Apple's not very good at usually,

01:48:39   so, and they don't host my email.

01:48:42   I use Fast Mail for that with mail right in front of it,

01:48:44   so I, you know, that's again,

01:48:46   like I wouldn't trust iCloud Mail,

01:48:48   even though a lot of people do and it works fine.

01:48:50   - I'm surprised you didn't tell me your usual speech,

01:48:52   which like really, and this is true,

01:48:53   I just have been lax in doing it.

01:48:55   The right thing to do for my kids is not to give them Gmail accounts or Apple accounts,

01:48:57   the right thing to do is give them accounts in a domain that I own, even if behind the

01:49:01   scenes it forwards through Gmail or whatever.

01:49:02   So I'm kind of doing them a disservice by not doing that, but then again, they're not

01:49:06   going to care what the hell I do with them.

01:49:08   They're going to become adults and pick their own place to host their email.

01:49:10   I just hope it won't be Hotmail.

01:49:12   [laughter]

01:49:13   Hotmail will never die.

01:49:16   I can't get my sister a Hotmail.

01:49:18   I tried.

01:49:19   I really tried.

01:49:20   She has a Gmail account.

01:49:21   Her Hotmail all goes to it.

01:49:23   She can email from Hotmail through it just like I couldn't do it.

01:49:26   She keeps going back.

01:49:28   Syracuse are talking about toasters

01:49:31   More of side and then a rollercoaster

01:49:34   Will it fit on his countertop?

01:49:36   I hope the reviews never stop

01:49:39   How many pieces of toast can it fit?

01:49:42   What's the build quality of it?

01:49:44   Do the buttons make no sense?

01:49:47   Do the features justify expense?

01:49:50   John No-Slock toasters

01:49:52   Are better at just toasting

01:49:55   But he's looking for

01:49:57   Something so much more

01:49:59   Syracuse reviews all day

01:50:05   Hear him talk about

01:50:07   And I'm whisked away

01:50:10   Please don't stop

01:50:13   Being hypercritical

01:50:15   Until they're Syracuse reviews for all

01:50:21   ♪ Everybody wants a new one ♪

01:50:26   ♪ Oh ♪

01:50:30   ♪ Oh, oh, oh ♪

01:50:35   ♪ Oh ♪

01:50:37   [Music]

01:50:44   [Music]