144: Digital Schmear


00:00:00   Anyway, I don't know how you're gonna edit the beginning of this show. Good luck.

00:00:03   I'm just gonna delete everything before right now.

00:00:05   Oh, come on.

00:00:07   What am I gonna pull out of that?

00:00:09   The cooly cozy cozy discussion was wonderful.

00:00:11   I don't wanna have a whole show about butts and beer warmers.

00:00:14   Or Ohio.

00:00:16   Sorry, sorry Ohio. It just doesn't make the cut.

00:00:18   Just let it be known. Marco's the party pooper.

00:00:20   [

00:00:20   So, John, would you like to tell us about Apple TV catching up on gaming consoles in

00:00:26   power?

00:00:27   Sure.

00:00:28   We don't have much follow-up on Apple TV.

00:00:29   It's finally tailing off now.

00:00:31   But one conversation I saw floating around these past few weeks, I forget what prompted

00:00:36   it, otherwise I would have put the link in here.

00:00:38   But maybe it was just people talking about gaming and Apple TV in general, and some people

00:00:43   were like, "You know, the Apple TV with an A8, it's catching up to some gaming consoles

00:00:47   in power."

00:00:49   And like it's more powerful than a PS3 and maybe it's not as powerful as PS4 now, but

00:00:54   the PS4 isn't going to change anytime soon, like the PS5 is not imminent.

00:00:58   So if Apple keeps revising the Apple TV, at some point the Apple TV could be more powerful

00:01:03   than all current generation gaming consoles.

00:01:07   And I think that's crazy talk.

00:01:10   It starts with a kernel of truth, yes, the Apple TV with the A8 is way faster than the

00:01:14   old one.

00:01:16   And I'd even go, I haven't looked into this deeply, but just from looking at the games,

00:01:19   You could say, "Yeah, sure, PS3 power, maybe a little bit more, probably."

00:01:24   That's a safe bet, because the PS3 is a really old console.

00:01:27   And again, I agree that it's not PS4 power or Xbox One power, but then they extrapolate

00:01:32   and say, "But, you know, this is the A8, what if next year it's the A9, then the A10?"

00:01:37   And even if it's just a year or two behind the top-end phone, the idea is that iOS devices

00:01:43   keep getting faster, and game consoles have, you know, a five to seven year lifespan, sometimes

00:01:49   even longer. So if there is no PS5 on the horizon, perhaps just before the PS5 arrives,

00:01:55   the Apple TV will be a more powerful gaming system. And the reason I think that's bunk

00:01:59   is not necessarily because Apple couldn't make hardware that is faster than the PS4,

00:02:04   because they inevitably will, although not perhaps in the time frame before the PS5 comes,

00:02:08   but just because the Apple TV isn't the iPhone. It doesn't get revised every year, and even

00:02:14   Even the iPhone, even the highest end iOS device they make, the gigantic iPad Pro that

00:02:19   we will talk about later, has only 4GB of RAM and the PS4 has 8GB of RAM.

00:02:24   And you would think, well, RAM doesn't matter, the CPU and the GPU will be just as fast.

00:02:28   But when it comes to making games, things like RAM and things like hard disk space and

00:02:33   stuff like that makes a difference.

00:02:37   The PS4, I think, has a 500GB hard drive now and 8GB of RAM.

00:02:40   When do you think it's going to be that the Apple TV has 8GB of RAM?

00:02:43   it will, right? But will it have 8 gigs of RAM before the PS5 is out? I find that hard

00:02:47   to believe given how frequently Apple updates the Apple TV and even just given, I don't

00:02:53   even think the iPhone will have 8 gigs of RAM by the time the PS5 comes out at the current

00:02:57   rate of RAM boost. And that stuff makes a difference for games with like large open

00:03:03   world games with high resolution textures and all that other stuff. So anyone thinking

00:03:07   that the Apple TV will eventually be more powerful than the PS4, it will, but by that

00:03:12   time the PS6 will probably be out.

00:03:13   Michael Lewis, Ph.D. There's also a pretty big difference in thermals between these kinds

00:03:17   of systems. As we see from modern CPU and GPU limitations and designs and progress and

00:03:23   everything, we're mainly limited by how much heat we will allow the chips to output, or

00:03:28   how much heat we can deal with them outputting, and that pretty much puts a limit on performance

00:03:32   that we can get out of them at any given moment or in any given year, like in whatever we

00:03:36   can do that year. That is generally what we're fighting against. And for things that are

00:03:40   AC connected. You know, you don't really need to worry too much about current draw, which

00:03:45   is related, but you can max out the current draw as much as you want when you're plugged

00:03:48   into a wall outlet, but you still, in a little tiny box that's $100 next to your TV, or $150

00:03:54   next to your TV, with no fan in this little tiny enclosure that's not even made of metal,

00:03:59   it's going to be pretty hard to get mega heat output out of that.

00:04:02   Meanwhile, you look at a game console and they had these big, hot chips with these big,

00:04:06   loud annoying fans, especially in their first generation before they do any kind of process

00:04:11   shrink. So when the PS5 comes out, they're going to be able to put in some giant big

00:04:17   hot chip with a big loud fan on it and the Apple TV will still need to be this cheap

00:04:22   fanless box running year or two old iPhone guts.

00:04:25   Yeah, and they're offset from each other because like could you imagine when the PS3 first

00:04:29   came out if you said someday there'll be a little black puck with no fans in it that's

00:04:32   more powerful than the PS3. You're like, "Get out of here!" But here we are. But look at

00:04:36   the time span gap, it's huge gap between the PS3 and now.

00:04:39   So like, the fanless thing is always going to lag behind

00:04:44   the thing with fans by at least a generation

00:04:49   and not like processing power as much as just capacity

00:04:52   for large, you know, games.

00:04:55   Like having all that RAM is important

00:04:57   for putting the big console games on there

00:04:59   for the big textures and all that other stuff.

00:05:01   And if you don't have that RAM, if you have to wait,

00:05:03   like the PS3 didn't have a lot of RAM,

00:05:05   so you had to wedge a lot of crap in there.

00:05:06   That's part of the reason that the Apple TV can match it these days is because the PS3

00:05:10   was very strange architecture and relatively RAM starved, but the PS4 is not RAM starved.

00:05:16   It's got tons of RAM and it's got tons of hard drive space, which is not as fast as

00:05:20   an SSD, but when you're preloading levels and stuff it's fast enough to stream levels

00:05:25   to host.

00:05:26   Anyway, I'm definitely not looking for the Apple TV to catch up and pass the PS4, unless

00:05:32   I guess there is no PS5 and then you just wait around until we can get a PS4 and a little puck thing

00:05:37   But I really think at this point that probably will be a PS5 because the PS4 is doing pretty well for Sony all things considered

00:05:43   All right any other follow-up

00:05:45   On an infinite timescale the rate we're going we are gonna not have follow-up at all

00:05:51   I don't even know what to make of this what a shame that would be

00:05:54   You could technically put a lot of the iPad Pro stuff in there

00:05:57   But it's not really because we're just gonna talk more about the iPad Pro later

00:06:00   Fair enough. Any follow-out you'd like to do, John?

00:06:03   I don't know what that is.

00:06:04   Fair enough. All right. What's awesome these days before we dig in?

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00:08:00   So the Mac App Store had some issues in the last week.

00:08:05   It was a pretty big disaster, and I didn't really know what was going on.

00:08:10   I've been really busy, and so I have been following Twitter as religiously as I usually

00:08:14   do.

00:08:15   And I saw that there were some issues, and I didn't think a lot of it because everything

00:08:18   seemed to be working on my computer.

00:08:21   And then all of a sudden I went to run 1Password and I was told I couldn't.

00:08:25   And suddenly this thing I wasn't paying attention to became a lot more real.

00:08:31   So Jon, why don't you tell us what happened?

00:08:33   Well, so the stuff they run from the Mac App Store is DRM encumbered, let's say, to some

00:08:42   degree.

00:08:43   They're receipts that the Mac App Store puts in the application.

00:08:48   Apple's advice for figuring out on the launch of your application whether your app is valid

00:08:52   is to check those receipts.

00:08:53   They have some code that they, you know, some code samples showing you how to do that, but

00:08:57   you can really do it any way you want.

00:08:59   Some developers use OpenSSL library that they bundle into their application.

00:09:05   OpenSSL is an open source thing to check their certificates.

00:09:08   And there are a couple problems related to this.

00:09:10   As with most disasters, not just one thing goes wrong multiples.

00:09:13   One of the things that went wrong is that Apple updated their certificate for this receipt

00:09:19   to use a better encryption, a stronger encryption they had been using previously.

00:09:23   And it just so happens that the OpenSSL library that a lot of applications use to validate

00:09:28   their receipts can't handle this new encryption level.

00:09:33   So that's one class of things that went wrong.

00:09:35   The second class of things that went wrong is the Mac App Store certificate expired and

00:09:39   Apple replaced it with a new one.

00:09:41   That's why they had the occasion, I think, to replace this with the new one that had

00:09:44   the stronger encryption.

00:09:45   And there's a bug in the Mac App Store where even if a new certificate is issued, after

00:09:50   the old one has expired, there's some caching issue, I guess it's locally on the Macs, that

00:09:54   makes it not take the new certificate even though the old one had expired.

00:10:02   And so what people were getting was they would try to launch an application, and not just

00:10:07   one application, but in some cases if they have the caching problem, pretty much every

00:10:10   application they'd got from the Mac App Store, you would end up getting these dialog boxes

00:10:16   that say, "This application is damaged, please throw it in the trash."

00:10:19   Basically, the system telling you that it couldn't validate the authenticity of this

00:10:22   application.

00:10:23   This is kind of the system working as designed, and if some malware infected all your applications

00:10:27   and turned them into trojan horses and stuff, you would want to know, "Hey, don't run this

00:10:33   application, it's messed up."

00:10:34   But the same dialog appears if the validation machinery says, in this case, the certificate

00:10:39   had expired and even though Apple had issued a new one, even though your application might

00:10:42   have been able to use that new one to validate that everything was going on, the local operating

00:10:46   system was telling it, "No, you're trying to use a certificate that expired like three

00:10:51   days ago, so you're out of luck."

00:10:53   So Apple fixed this by downgrading their encryption to the old version that fixed all the applications

00:10:59   that had the old version of SSL.

00:11:01   And I don't know what they did to fix these expiring certificates other than to tell people

00:11:05   to reboot and stuff.

00:11:06   I'm not entirely sure what they did.

00:11:08   - Yeah, they said they're preparing a software update

00:11:10   for OS X to prevent the caching issue in the future, but--

00:11:14   - Yeah, that's not gonna help people

00:11:15   who had this problem last week.

00:11:16   - Yeah, I mean this, this was a disaster on so many levels.

00:11:19   It's kind of an embarrassment.

00:11:21   I mean, so the official statement they gave,

00:11:24   which came pretty late, honestly.

00:11:27   - Six days later, they made an official statement,

00:11:29   and it wasn't even, was it a public statement?

00:11:30   I think they emailed developers this thing, right?

00:11:32   - Well, they emailed something to developers,

00:11:34   and they also gave a PR statement to sites like iMore,

00:11:38   which we'll link to in the show notes.

00:11:39   Apple does a lot of things this way.

00:11:41   They don't put bad news or reactions

00:11:44   to things on their own site.

00:11:45   They'll send the same PR statement to

00:11:49   known friendly Apple sites and have them all basically

00:11:51   report it and apologize on Apple's behalf for them

00:11:54   so that Apple doesn't have to soil their site

00:11:56   with any kind of negative PR.

00:11:58   So the statement they gave was,

00:12:00   I think it was a lot of BS and some truth.

00:12:05   This was a planned event and most users

00:12:07   experienced no issues. However, some users experienced some issues during this change.

00:12:15   Now, because of the nature of this problem, I think most users, that is complete BS, the

00:12:24   idea that most users experienced no issues and only some people had only some problems.

00:12:30   No.

00:12:31   So, how, is there any way that Apple could know the actual answer to that? Because Apple's

00:12:35   not tracking, I'm assuming, how often we launch applications and stuff. So I don't think anyone

00:12:39   really knows the scope of this problem.

00:12:43   You know, I don't know, honestly. But, so the fact is, you know, this PR statement is

00:12:48   trying to minimize the issue.

00:12:50   Well, but see, but if you don't know, and Apple doesn't know, everyone is just guessing

00:12:54   based on stories they've heard, right?

00:12:55   I guess that's true. I mean, I suppose they could know, like, how many people hit the

00:12:59   certificate server, right? I mean...

00:13:01   I mean, they can estimate, I'm assuming they can estimate it from like support load, because

00:13:05   you can do some math and say if we get X number of support calls for this issue, that means

00:13:08   why people really have this issue.

00:13:11   You know, just based on historically speaking, how many people will go to the phones or go

00:13:14   to email about a particular issue.

00:13:16   You can kind of back of the envelope figure out based on previous problems that you did

00:13:20   have better metrics on.

00:13:21   Right, who knows?

00:13:22   I mean, what we're using is like, do you know somebody who had this problem with their computer?

00:13:27   I mean, you know, I didn't, I actually didn't encounter this problem on many of my computers,

00:13:31   but then again, I tend to avoid buying applications in the Mac App Store.

00:13:35   But I do have some.

00:13:36   For example, Slack I brought on the Mac App Store, and I use it every day, and I had no

00:13:39   problem with it.

00:13:40   Is it because I'm always running it?

00:13:41   And if you're, like, if you're running it and the certificate expires, I think there's

00:13:44   no problem.

00:13:45   It's only if you quit it and launch it.

00:13:46   But I'm pretty sure I did quit it and launch it during that window and haven't restarted.

00:13:49   So anyway, I had zero problems.

00:13:51   Casey had a problem.

00:13:52   Some people had tons of problems.

00:13:53   I had many problems.

00:13:55   stories where they show the dialogue box is like 500 dialogue boxes popping up on the screen saying

00:13:59   they can't watch things. Anyway, the bottom line is that this was a problem that could have

00:14:04   potentially affected every single user who has ever purchased anything from the Mac App Store.

00:14:08   And it probably affected a lot of them because who, you know, maybe I just got lucky, but like

00:14:15   conceptually speaking, this is, you don't need a weird set of circumstances to trigger this problem,

00:14:21   I don't think you just need to have purchased things from the Mac App Store

00:14:23   To and to have your system cache the old certificate and then to launch them after the new one has been issued

00:14:30   Tips during the checkpoint. I got something pretty relevant here

00:14:33   Slack probably does not do receipt validation on launch because it's a free app. They probably don't care

00:14:39   So the only apps that were doing receipt validation

00:14:41   Would would have had this problem. Yeah, I'm trying to think of the Mac App Store apps

00:14:46   I have I guess I have Apple's apps like, you know, the the you know pages and all that stuff

00:14:51   stuff from the iWorkSuite and I tend not to buy in the Mac App Store and that's the second

00:14:56   factor in this which is things like this, especially for people who have no idea why

00:15:00   the heck this happened, make them feel worse about the Mac App Store.

00:15:05   And people who have any clue about the details of the Mac App Store, this will actually make

00:15:09   them avoid it more than they did in the past.

00:15:11   Like I'm avoiding it for a variety of reasons, mostly because the applications I use, even

00:15:18   Even when they were in the Mac App Store, like BB Edit, I never bought the Mac App Store

00:15:21   version because it was crippled by sandboxing because of Apple's rule.

00:15:23   So if I have a choice between buying the crippled sandbox version and the non-crippled version,

00:15:27   and I know the non-crippled version gives more money to the developer, I'll buy the

00:15:30   non-crippled version every time.

00:15:32   So that's what I've always done, if there's any choice.

00:15:34   The ones I buy in the Mac App Store, it's always been like, "That's convenient, you

00:15:37   know, I don't care that much about it, it's not a big deal," or, "It's free, like Slack

00:15:41   or whatever."

00:15:42   You know, it's more convenient than going to direct download it.

00:15:44   Like, I would like to have the experience where I could just go to one place and see

00:15:47   all my apps and auto-update them and all that stuff.

00:15:49   I like those features at the Mac App Store, but for apps that really count, I'm definitely

00:15:53   buying them outside.

00:15:54   But for people who are more towards the Mac App Store, where they're like, "You know what,

00:15:58   the convenience is more important to me than giving more money to the developer, and the

00:16:02   applications I use don't suffer from any sandboxing issues, and I really love auto-update and

00:16:06   all this other stuff."

00:16:08   Never mind that most Mac apps before the Mac App Store were already using Sparkle or something

00:16:11   like that, anyway.

00:16:12   Anyway, for people who know about these details,

00:16:15   this is going to make them think twice

00:16:17   because they're like,

00:16:17   "Before the trade-off was worth it to me.

00:16:19   I will buy from the Mac App Store

00:16:20   because the convenience is worth it to me

00:16:22   for the potential downsides."

00:16:23   But now they're weighing that convenience

00:16:26   versus like, you know,

00:16:28   this day when all your apps won't launch

00:16:31   and you've got to figure out what the heck the problem is.

00:16:32   And so this is not good,

00:16:35   both short-term and long-term for the Mac App Store,

00:16:37   which was already not a particularly beloved institution

00:16:40   as far as developers and tech savvy users are concerned.

00:16:44   - That's the problem.

00:16:44   I mean, there are so many reasons already

00:16:48   why you might want to be hesitant

00:16:49   about buying from the Mac App Store

00:16:51   and why developers might want to be hesitant

00:16:53   to be in the Mac App Store.

00:16:55   And to just add one more thing to the pile,

00:16:57   it's just a really bad time for that.

00:16:59   And it just seems like, you know,

00:17:03   there was a good post by, is it Michael Tsai?

00:17:07   MJ Tsai?

00:17:08   - I believe that's right.

00:17:10   He made a good post, we'll link to it in the show notes,

00:17:13   called "Nobody Minding the Store" or something like that.

00:17:16   Do I have that right?

00:17:17   Basically collecting all these quotes and everything

00:17:20   and pointing out, just like,

00:17:21   the Mac App Store is just so neglected,

00:17:25   and it has been since its introduction.

00:17:28   The iOS App Store has its own set of problems,

00:17:31   but the Mac App Store is so much worse in almost every way.

00:17:36   The fact that it has a bug, a certificate validation bug,

00:17:40   I mean, that's like one of many problems with it.

00:17:42   That's only the most recent problem with it.

00:17:45   The application itself,

00:17:46   the Mac App Store application is a disaster.

00:17:49   The sandboxing issues have pushed out tons of good apps.

00:17:53   Mac App Store developers, I really feel sorry for them.

00:17:56   And if I were launching a Mac app,

00:17:58   I'm not sure I would put it there.

00:18:00   Like, if you would have asked me a year ago

00:18:01   if I was launching a Mac app to put it in the App Store,

00:18:03   I'd say, yeah, probably.

00:18:04   You know, I don't wanna deal with myself distributing it.

00:18:06   So yeah, I'll put it in the App Store.

00:18:08   But today, I don't think I would.

00:18:10   It just seems like it's not worth

00:18:12   all of the downsides and costs.

00:18:15   - Well, it really depends.

00:18:17   If I was developing a Mac app,

00:18:18   I would say it really depends on what kind of app it is.

00:18:22   Because if it's a small app or if it's a free app

00:18:25   or if it's an app that you think will never be impacted

00:18:27   by sandboxing and you just don't wanna deal with

00:18:30   incorporating Sparkle and putting up your own

00:18:32   endpoint for that and making sure it's up for the updates

00:18:35   and doing payment processing yourself

00:18:37   all that other stuff that you would have to do if you did the direct sales route because

00:18:40   say you don't have an existing channel for direct sales to software because you're not

00:18:44   an established software company or whatever, it is definitely convenient to use the Mac

00:18:48   App Store. But if your app, you know, if I was doing an app that wasn't true for even

00:18:52   one of those things, like could my app potentially be impacted by sandboxing, don't go to the

00:18:57   Mac App Store. Do I already have a way to accept money from people? I don't need the

00:19:00   Mac App Store for that. Do I already know how to incorporate self-auto update and have

00:19:04   a robust framework for doing that and already have a website that I have to keep up and

00:19:07   so I can put an endpoint on it for updates, then yeah, just, you know, there's no point

00:19:12   if you feel like those things don't apply.

00:19:15   That's you know, I'm not actually a Mac developer, so I don't know.

00:19:18   But part of, yeah, part of this whole recent round of Mac App Store stuff and the Tech

00:19:23   Nerd circles was developers sort of reiterating, "See guys, this is why I'm not in the Mac

00:19:29   App Store and users like the MJ side thing writing up all the list of you know

00:19:35   all the great Mac apps that are not in the Mac App Store like the Mac App Store

00:19:38   even though many people think of it as the only and best and and single place

00:19:43   to get Mac software a lot of the Mac software that the Mac users really love

00:19:48   a lot of the best Mac software is just not on the Mac App Store and obviously

00:19:52   that's not true in iOS because it's pretty much all the software on iOS is

00:19:56   on the App Store.

00:19:57   So yeah, Apple's always been in an uncomfortable position

00:19:59   with the Mac App Store because there is an alternative.

00:20:01   And we all want there to be an alternative,

00:20:03   but that means the Mac App Store actually has to compete.

00:20:05   Kind of in the same way that the iTunes Music Store

00:20:07   had to compete against piracy,

00:20:09   the Mac App Store has to compete against direct sales

00:20:12   and applications that can be more powerful

00:20:14   and do more powerful things.

00:20:16   And it's currently losing that competition.

00:20:18   - And even as a user, everything about the Mac App Store,

00:20:22   from a user perspective, has gotten worse over time.

00:20:26   You know, first when they started adding sandboxing,

00:20:28   you know, that not only pushed out a lot of apps

00:20:29   that made us, oh, well now we have to like,

00:20:31   you know, exchange our license and go download

00:20:33   the direct version and everything.

00:20:34   So that was a pain for people who bought in early

00:20:38   to the app store.

00:20:39   And then when sandboxing came in, now, like,

00:20:43   I hate sandboxed apps, 'cause they're a pain

00:20:45   from the user side to use.

00:20:48   Like I have a couple apps, like one of them

00:20:49   is called Space Gremlin.

00:20:51   It helps you like find where all your disk space is.

00:20:53   and it has to read your whole hard drive.

00:20:58   And the convoluted hoops that apps like this have to do,

00:21:01   it's like, okay, click this button, choose the root folder,

00:21:04   and then every time you gotta redo it,

00:21:06   and oh, now it can't look at files, it's just,

00:21:09   it's such a pain.

00:21:10   And from a user perspective, just like sandboxing is,

00:21:13   like I don't, I understand the security benefits of it,

00:21:16   but if it's a very rarely used opt-in system,

00:21:21   those are pretty limited.

00:21:23   And I don't think it's worth it from the user perspective.

00:21:26   I really don't.

00:21:28   The way it's implemented now,

00:21:29   in its incredibly half-baked

00:21:32   and seemingly completely neglected way,

00:21:34   I don't want it as a user.

00:21:36   It's just one more thing.

00:21:37   And then you add something like this receipt validation bug

00:21:41   that made all my apps just break all of a sudden.

00:21:44   That's a big problem.

00:21:47   What reason do I have as a user

00:21:50   to buy more apps from the Mac App Store

00:21:52   after all the problems and things getting worse.

00:21:56   I don't see a good reason anymore.

00:21:57   - Well, you've still got the convenience reason,

00:21:59   like the one place you can go for the updates

00:22:02   and it's easy to buy things there.

00:22:04   I wish, the Mac App Store should also make it easier

00:22:06   to uninstall, but they don't really.

00:22:08   But beyond that, like all the pros are still there,

00:22:11   but the cons just keep stacking up

00:22:12   and the cons don't go away.

00:22:13   And the sandboxing thing, really, like,

00:22:15   the main problem with that, aside from all the bugs

00:22:17   and all the other things that the poor Mac developers

00:22:19   have to complain about how, you know,

00:22:21   iOS gets better tools for crash reports and debugging and betas and test flight and all

00:22:27   that other stuff.

00:22:28   Anyway, aside from all that, Mac App Store sandboxing, like iOS has sandboxing and everyone

00:22:34   gets along with it because the entire system, the entire operating system, the entire way

00:22:38   of using the phone has from the beginning been built around the idea of sandboxing,

00:22:43   which is, you know, problems for data sharing and silly like URL schemes to get around all

00:22:48   these things.

00:22:49   So that has its own problems, but it fits with the system.

00:22:50   the Mac, sandboxing flies in the face of the entire history of the platform. And if you

00:22:56   put sandboxing in that environment, it doesn't fit. Like, if your app happens to fit into

00:23:01   a little nice sandbox thing, you're fine. But there's whole classes of applications,

00:23:04   good useful applications, that don't fit within sandboxing. And it's almost like Apple saying,

00:23:11   we really wish, really wish that you didn't have to have apps like this on your Mac. We

00:23:15   really, really wish the Mac was like iOS. And so they say, maybe if we make all the

00:23:19   the Mac apps be sandboxed, then the Mac will be just like the iPhone, but it's not.

00:23:23   And so, like the app that Marco just mentioned, you know, showing where all your disk space

00:23:28   is.

00:23:30   Could they have, like, in system preferences, a disk space usage thing that did the same

00:23:34   thing that was part of the operating system, like settings is on iOS?

00:23:38   They could, but they don't.

00:23:40   And Mac users do have to manage that storage, and on a Mac, because of the way it is, it's

00:23:44   difficult to tell where all that space is going, because you have a lot of files and

00:23:47   and a lot of folders and all that other stuff that,

00:23:49   again, is not user visible in iOS.

00:23:51   So there is a place for applications

00:23:52   that do this type of thing.

00:23:53   Same thing for like disk duplicating things

00:23:55   like SuperDuper and stuff.

00:23:57   That's a thing you don't have to do with phones

00:24:00   because they've always had like,

00:24:01   well, they have the cloud backup now,

00:24:03   or you back them up to iTunes,

00:24:04   which just pushes the problem onto your Mac

00:24:06   or whatever you're gonna do.

00:24:08   For the Mac, we need a way to back it up

00:24:09   and doing disk clones is a useful thing to do.

00:24:12   And the disk cloning software

00:24:14   needs to read the entire disk, of course.

00:24:16   and sandboxing makes it a pain.

00:24:18   It can be done, but it's a big, super pain.

00:24:21   So you can't make the Mac as safe as iOS

00:24:27   by merely just saying applications have to be sandboxed.

00:24:29   All you can do is say some applications will be sandboxed

00:24:32   and it's good for them.

00:24:33   Like it is a benefit to the user to have applications

00:24:36   that can't get outside of their little pen

00:24:38   and that if they somehow get exploited or broken

00:24:41   or there's a bug in them or whatever,

00:24:42   they can do less damage.

00:24:44   But that other class of applications

00:24:45   is never going to go away so long as the Mac still is

00:24:48   like it is, so long as the Mac is still

00:24:50   an old style PC operating system.

00:24:54   So I don't see what they can do about the tension

00:24:56   other than to make a tiered system and say,

00:25:00   "Sandbox if you can, we'll give you a special label

00:25:03   in the App Store for your sandbox and a label if you're not."

00:25:05   Instead, they're just stubbornly saying,

00:25:06   "Everything has to be sandboxed

00:25:08   and if you can't work in the sandbox,

00:25:09   we don't want your kind of application on our platform."

00:25:11   And at least the tech savvy users are saying,

00:25:14   You may not want that kind of application on the platform, but I want that application because it does useful things for me.

00:25:19   And so either you make it no longer useful, like you will never need to clone a disk again because all your data is magically backed up using quantum entanglement or something, right?

00:25:28   Or you make it like iOS and, you know, with no local backup option, everything is a cloud backup.

00:25:34   Or you got to give me some way to do all these things that I need to do.

00:25:37   or even just something as simple as BBEdit,

00:25:39   where the text editor wants to be able

00:25:41   to have like a file browser

00:25:43   without throwing a stupid open save dialog box in your face

00:25:45   to the PowerBox thing to let you convince the system

00:25:48   that you're allowed to access these files.

00:25:50   Like a programmer style text editor

00:25:53   where you browse the whole file system

00:25:54   is a useful thing to have

00:25:56   because the Mac is a system that lets you have files

00:25:58   and folders and expose the whole file system.

00:26:00   And BBEdit is not useful if you confine it

00:26:02   to like a sandbox-like environment.

00:26:04   All you're doing is pushing that annoyance

00:26:05   to the user who has to do silly things in the UI to convince the system that yes, please

00:26:11   let B be edited out of these text files no matter where they are.

00:26:13   You know, Jon, a minute ago you said, "Wouldn't it be nice if Apple had included something

00:26:19   like Space Gremlin or my preferred app, DaisyDisk?"

00:26:23   Have you not seen about this Mac and then the storage tab, which is super useful and

00:26:28   is telling me that of the three quarters of a terabyte I have full, about half of it is

00:26:33   other?

00:26:34   The usage in iOS is not very granular, but it's granular on the level that iOS works,

00:26:39   because it tells you per apps, because you don't have direct access to managing the storage.

00:26:43   It's like all you can do about it is delete an app and all its data goes with it.

00:26:47   Maybe some apps you can go into the app and delete videos or whatever.

00:26:51   But the granularity of the information provided by the settings thing in iOS matches the granularity

00:26:57   of the way you use iOS, more or less.

00:27:00   The granularity of the Mac for good or for ill is files and folders.

00:27:05   Letting it tell you how much is music, how much is video, and how much is a giant yellow

00:27:09   bar for all of other, which I always wonder how it comes up with that.

00:27:12   A is not even as useful as iOS, and B, it's not the way the Mac works.

00:27:16   I need to know, like, I use it all the time, especially back before I upgraded my wife's

00:27:21   computer, she had a 256 gig SSD, and I would need to hunt down some episode of My Little

00:27:28   pony that I didn't know had auto-downloaded by iTunes to dig it out of the iTunes folder

00:27:32   and delete the damn thing.

00:27:34   And you can do that sometimes from within iTunes.

00:27:36   But even just the sad discovery that many people make that the virtual memory sleep

00:27:41   image can push you over your disk space limit, right?

00:27:46   Because when you get a machine with a lot of RAM and a small SSD, you start really asking

00:27:50   hard questions like, "Do I really need the Hibernate functionality or can I just disable

00:27:55   and just use old-style sleep and just really hope

00:27:57   that it doesn't run out of battery while it's asleep.

00:28:00   - Yeah, it's really ugly.

00:28:01   And I don't know, when I saw that one password,

00:28:04   which just so happened to be the first thing

00:28:06   that reared its ugly head,

00:28:09   when I saw that that was broken, or well, not broken,

00:28:12   but I saw that it had been broken by the Mac App Store,

00:28:14   I realized what was happening very quickly,

00:28:16   but that was only because I had seen

00:28:18   some passing references to it on Twitter

00:28:20   or RSS or what have you.

00:28:22   If I remember right, the dialogue though

00:28:24   said something like, "Oh, this is all broke.

00:28:26   "Go redownload it," and so on.

00:28:28   - It doesn't even say, it says,

00:28:30   "This application is damaged

00:28:31   "and you should move it to the trash."

00:28:33   - Right, right, exactly.

00:28:34   - And so the solution is,

00:28:37   redownload this from the Mac App Store.

00:28:39   The process of doing that is so,

00:28:42   they couldn't have made it more obtuse

00:28:44   and manual if they tried.

00:28:46   - Well, yeah, and that's the thing,

00:28:48   is that I kind of know what I'm doing

00:28:50   when it comes to using a computer.

00:28:51   I can't imagine someone who doesn't follow this stuff.

00:28:55   I mean, it's not that hard to go to the applications folder and drag it to the trash and then go

00:29:00   back to the Mac App Store.

00:29:01   But that dialogue, to your point, Marco, didn't really make it clear what the correct order

00:29:07   of operations or correct task list was to fix this issue.

00:29:11   And it's just, it was like one of you said, it was just disaster from top to bottom.

00:29:16   It was a disaster all the way down.

00:29:19   It's a little frustrating that the most Apple did was say yeah, well, you know screwed up, but it will fix it

00:29:25   Don't worry. Yeah, the thing is they have all the info that dialog box

00:29:28   They have all the information on the system to fix that in one button press if

00:29:32   The system thinks that the application and damage and it should be thrown in the trash

00:29:36   There could be one button that says would you like me to redownload this because I know exactly what damn

00:29:40   Application is and I know that you purchased it and I can put it in the trash and I can redownload it for you

00:29:44   Because I know everything about like there's the gimme is like that the same thing with uninstall

00:29:48   Like if the uninstall process really is drag it to the trash

00:29:50   Why is there not a big honkin uninstall button in the the Mac App Store app?

00:29:55   So anyway, a lot of his neglect of just like things they could do and they don't do speaking of neglect

00:30:01   Our tips are in the chat room

00:30:03   Insists loudly and has been since this time has happened that this bug about the certificate caching has already been reported

00:30:10   There's already a radar for it and it's been around since OS 10 10.6

00:30:14   That's uncomfortable and has not been fixed again. It's tips for information so take with a grain of salt whether it's true or not

00:30:20   but it's it's the

00:30:22   You know it feels bad when your platform is not getting attention and at various times Apple has

00:30:28   Ignored the Mac and then so said that like you know we really care about the Mac

00:30:34   We're paying a lot of attention to it and done lots of important significant things to the Mac

00:30:37   But there's still areas particularly around the Mac App Store, especially as it compares to the regular App Store that just feels

00:30:43   feels neglected.

00:30:44   Well, and you know, how many people do you think are actually tasked with working on

00:30:50   this kind of thing at Apple right now? Like, you know, Apple's teams are always a lot

00:30:54   smaller than you think they are, and Apple also has this very frequent habit that, from

00:31:01   what I hear, is worse than ever, where engineers get pulled off of things all the time to go

00:31:07   work on some new project that needs more engineering resources, that is, you know, like a newer

00:31:12   thing or more important to the current direction of the company or current business goals.

00:31:17   So people get moved around all the time and there's usually either nobody left working

00:31:22   on boring stuff like the Mac App Store or a surprisingly small staff. It might be a

00:31:27   handful of people doing some of this stuff. Some things have one person working on them.

00:31:32   So a bug like that, it's not that the Mac App Store staff is so big that they're working

00:31:41   other stuff, it's more likely that almost no one's working on this. And Apple keeps

00:31:47   having problems like this where the boring old stuff gets these kind of like, either

00:31:52   gets ignored forever and bugs like this sit around for years, or it gets like these drive

00:31:58   by updates. It's like somebody comes in, rewrites the whole thing, like Discovery D

00:32:03   is a perfect example of this. From what we hear, the LCAP USB stack might be something

00:32:08   like this. Certainly we're hearing that the Elcab Disk Utility is probably something

00:32:13   like this, where you get kind of this drive-by update where somebody is finally allowed to

00:32:19   work on it and told to revamp it or clean it up or rewrite it or something. And you

00:32:24   get like one pass at it, and what comes out is like 75% functional, and then that person

00:32:31   is gone and sent to go work on something else. And this is not the recipe for quality at

00:32:37   at all. Like, it's the complete opposite of what you should be doing, and it is not even

00:32:41   an efficient way to run an engineering organization.

00:32:44   They should get some of the 100 developers at Instagram who don't have time to make an

00:32:47   iPad app. Before Twitter cut its staff, which is sad for all the people who lost their jobs,

00:32:54   but they had, and still do have, a very large number of people. I mean, to some degree,

00:32:59   I can kind of explain it with Twitter and Instagram, to say, look, they've got a server-side

00:33:02   component, so when everyone throws out big developer numbers for these companies, they

00:33:05   They envision all of these people working on the iOS app when surely perhaps the majority

00:33:09   of them are working on backend stuff.

00:33:11   But the number of developers in these large VC-funded companies, they hire lots of really

00:33:17   smart people to work on one or two flagship mobile applications.

00:33:24   And then you compare them to the one or two person independent shops writing competing

00:33:30   third party applications.

00:33:31   applications and you're like how is Twitter have like literally 100 iOS developers making

00:33:40   their iOS Twitter client and Twitterific has two people and you look at the two applications

00:33:48   and you think they're peers like they seem about the same right one of them is made by the company

00:33:53   that makes the thing and the other one is made by two guys and so like you know this is the

00:33:57   mythical man month at a certain point adding more people doesn't help and then you know this

00:34:01   you know, committee syndrome and people are, you know, you can't actually make any change,

00:34:04   which is why Twitter, to its credit, has been saying that they're trying to, you know,

00:34:08   become more efficient or whatever. But Apple seems to have the opposite problem where,

00:34:13   like Marco said, every story we hear is, you know, there's actually one guy who's responsible

00:34:17   for these three applications and within a given release, he does two minor updates to each one,

00:34:21   fixes some bugs, and that's about it. You know, crashes first and everything else if there's time.

00:34:25   And there's got to be something in the middle there where you have a reasonable number of

00:34:31   of people empowered to make good decisions,

00:34:35   to not just make a product,

00:34:37   but to continue to make it better year after year

00:34:40   after year, like the hardware team surely have.

00:34:42   I mean, it's not like they took the iPhone 4S

00:34:45   and just said every year,

00:34:46   we'll just make minor tweaks to it.

00:34:47   'Cause we don't have time to do anything

00:34:48   except for to fix the broken home button, right?

00:34:50   No, they make a whole new phone and they go,

00:34:53   the hardware gets better and better and better.

00:34:55   The software, depending on what it is,

00:34:58   can spend years without really moving.

00:35:00   So yeah, the Mac does have a lot of applications and some of them don't really change much

00:35:05   year after year, even when we feel like they should.

00:35:09   Maybe it's okay that the terminal application doesn't change too radically from year to

00:35:13   year, but the Mac App Store that everyone agrees has all these problems should really

00:35:18   be getting more attention.

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00:37:33   - Okay, so the long national nightmare is over.

00:37:38   You have acquired an Apple Pencil.

00:37:41   - I have, yes.

00:37:43   We have the iPad Pro,

00:37:45   and we have the front smart cover only,

00:37:48   'cause I couldn't bring myself to spend $140

00:37:52   to cover the back as well.

00:37:53   But I could bring myself to spend $100 buying a pencil.

00:38:00   So we now have iPad Pro and the Apple Pencil.

00:38:06   And I love using the Apple Pencil,

00:38:09   however, I am not much of an artist.

00:38:13   I wish I had more reasons to use it.

00:38:16   Fortunately, my wife is an artist and does use it,

00:38:19   and she's had a lot of experience with it,

00:38:21   so please welcome on the show,

00:38:24   our return guest, Tiffany Arment.

00:38:27   - I'm not an artist.

00:38:28   - Yes you are.

00:38:29   - I'm a dabbler.

00:38:30   - She's the artist formerly known as Tiff.

00:38:32   - Exactly.

00:38:33   - I assure you, you're a much better artist than I,

00:38:36   and I know Jon has dabbled in the past as well,

00:38:38   so I won't speak for him on that one,

00:38:39   but certainly better than me,

00:38:41   and I think it's safe to say better than Marco.

00:38:43   So you're as near as we got for now,

00:38:45   I don't know Marco's drawings are pretty amazing like his stick figures are

00:38:49   Totally killer xkcd caliber. Yeah, I was gonna say given Randall Monroe a run for his money

00:38:55   Not that good. You made that awesome little decaf sign with that sad coffee mug. That was super funny

00:39:01   I could occasionally make one decent drawing. I

00:39:04   Love his drawings

00:39:06   I think we have to get rid of the idea that you have to you have to pass some skill threshold to have a reason

00:39:11   to use any sort of artistic implement.

00:39:15   I agree.

00:39:16   No matter what it is that you're doing, there's not, like, nothing bad will happen to you

00:39:20   if you quote unquote can't draw and you start doodling with a stylist.

00:39:25   Like we all doodle, like in the margins there are notebooks and everything.

00:39:29   Just if it's fun to do and you find it relaxing and meditative, like I'm sure someone that

00:39:33   they haven't already will make the adult coloring book application for the iPad Pro and Tiff

00:39:36   will get it and she will love it.

00:39:37   And like, there's no, there's no like, you don't have to,

00:39:41   I know Marco's looking for like something useful.

00:39:42   He wants to feel like he's doing something useful

00:39:44   or productive, but if it's just relaxing and fun to do,

00:39:46   you can try it.

00:39:47   And if you actually have any interest,

00:39:48   you can get better at it by practicing

00:39:51   and learning about it.

00:39:52   Like it's just like any other skill.

00:39:53   - Exactly, for the longest time,

00:39:54   I didn't even start doing anything

00:39:56   'cause I was afraid to be bad.

00:39:57   And everyone's bad at first.

00:39:59   So it was kind of a stupid fear,

00:40:00   but that's what kept me from even trying

00:40:02   to draw anything ever.

00:40:04   And so recently I decided, you know what?

00:40:06   I'm like 32 years old, I'm tired of being afraid

00:40:09   of being bad at something that I don't even know how to do.

00:40:12   So, anyway.

00:40:13   - For more on this, by the way,

00:40:14   listen to this week's Back to Work,

00:40:15   which is basically entirely on that topic.

00:40:17   - Is it really? - Yeah.

00:40:19   - All right, all right, so we're talking about some pencils

00:40:22   that I've already broken.

00:40:23   - I was about to say, you took the words

00:40:25   right out of my mouth.

00:40:26   So how long did the pencil last

00:40:27   from the time you had opened the cover of the box

00:40:31   to its actually initial breakage?

00:40:33   - Probably about five seconds, literally.

00:40:35   Like I opened the box and I was looking at the little card

00:40:38   'cause it comes with this card that also has inserts in it,

00:40:41   which is on top of the pencil.

00:40:43   So I opened that up and first I was pulling out

00:40:45   what the card was, the box flipped over,

00:40:48   the pencil fell out of the box, it fell onto our floor

00:40:51   and the cap popped off, this little silver ring

00:40:54   popped off of the cap and there were pieces everywhere.

00:40:57   - So but it turned out that it was functional,

00:41:01   it's just the body of it was broken, is that fair to say?

00:41:04   Well the little tiny cap has this little tiny silver ring that goes inside of it and it

00:41:09   seems to be held on by nothing but like a dot of glue so it just probably fell the worst

00:41:15   way possible because it's not very tight in the case and in the box when it comes so it

00:41:20   just kind of flipped out and then that little tiny ring popped off and Marco has since super

00:41:24   glued it back on and but I don't know it still feels funny to me.

00:41:29   I mean, the whole pencil, even with the ring in place,

00:41:33   the cap does not really fit tightly.

00:41:35   Like, I mean, in so many ways, this pencil was like,

00:41:38   not designed for practicality, which is a shame

00:41:41   because it feels really good like in use.

00:41:43   It works incredibly well, which we'll get to,

00:41:45   but you know, like, I expressed concern earlier,

00:41:49   even when they first announced it,

00:41:51   that like, there's nowhere to put it, for one thing.

00:41:53   There's no way to attach it to or put it into

00:41:57   any kind of cover for the iPad that exists so far.

00:42:00   - Which is so frustrating because where else

00:42:02   are you gonna use this pencil?

00:42:04   Nowhere, nowhere else is this pencil gonna be used anywhere

00:42:07   besides with this iPad Pro, so why not attach it,

00:42:11   you crazy people.

00:42:13   - Right, and the cap, so if you wanna charge this thing,

00:42:17   we also expressed concern when they first showed this off

00:42:19   two months ago, whenever, we also expressed concern

00:42:21   that when you put it in the end of the,

00:42:24   and you put it in the lightning port,

00:42:25   that is just asking to be broken off.

00:42:28   Like that is so precarious and looks weird, first of all,

00:42:31   but just so ridiculous.

00:42:32   And it seems like possibly last minute

00:42:36   they added this double female lightning adapter

00:42:40   that's in the box so you can use it

00:42:42   to reverse the orientation or to reverse the gender

00:42:45   of the lightning plug on it so that you can charge it

00:42:47   from a lightning cable, which is way more sane.

00:42:51   And I understand why they did it the way they did,

00:42:53   where you can charge it from a backpack,

00:42:54   because that way, if you only have the iPad and the pencil

00:42:57   with you and you need a quick charge,

00:42:59   you can get one quickly just from the iPad.

00:43:01   It's nice to have that ability, I guess,

00:43:03   but that also shouldn't be the primary way to charge it.

00:43:06   And so I guess maybe they recognize that last second

00:43:08   and it isn't.

00:43:09   So then the problem is, when you're charging it,

00:43:12   if you plug it in overnight sometime,

00:43:14   if you're charging it, where do you put the cap?

00:43:16   You can magnetically attach the cap to one of the smart--

00:43:19   the smart covers have magnets in them.

00:43:21   You can stick the little cap onto the--

00:43:24   - It's kind of wobbly.

00:43:26   - It really is designed to be in Johnny Ive's white world.

00:43:30   And it doesn't seem like--

00:43:33   - If it rolls around in the white world, he won't find it.

00:43:36   - So yeah, you don't have to worry about rolling off

00:43:38   the desk 'cause it is weighted, so it won't roll off

00:43:40   the desk, but it seems like it just made every opportunity

00:43:44   to break or get lost.

00:43:46   Even when it's in the iPad to charge,

00:43:49   it's lightning connector is extra long

00:43:53   and it fits fairly loosely.

00:43:55   Like it's just everything about it is like loose

00:43:57   and just waiting to either break or get lost.

00:44:00   - Well, the cap already almost went into the vacuum

00:44:02   and the air conditioner bent in our house

00:44:05   about two hours after I broke it.

00:44:07   So I mean, I'm doing really great right now with this pencil.

00:44:12   - So what I'm hearing is since they're so plentiful,

00:44:14   you should just jump on down to the local Apple store

00:44:18   and get a couple of backups because nobody's looking for them.

00:44:21   - Buy a dozen and keep them in a big jar

00:44:23   so you lose one pencil, whatever, just get another one.

00:44:25   - They should come in a box like crayons.

00:44:26   - I mean they're cheap, they're plentiful, no problems.

00:44:29   - No, they're gonna sell so many of these things

00:44:31   because people, if you actually use it regularly,

00:44:35   I would guess you have to buy a new one

00:44:37   probably once a year or so.

00:44:38   So at least, maybe even more depending on how careless

00:44:41   you are with your things or if you lose things a lot.

00:44:43   'Cause it really is like, you couldn't have designed it

00:44:46   to be less practical for forgetfulness or clumsiness,

00:44:51   if that makes sense.

00:44:53   - First of all, I'm not that clumsy or I never lose things.

00:44:56   I know where everything is in the house,

00:44:57   down to the little tiniest piece of anything.

00:44:59   I know where it is and losing,

00:45:02   I can't believe how comedy of errors happened yesterday

00:45:06   when we got ahold of this pencil.

00:45:08   - Yeah, so we actually, so I had pre-ordered,

00:45:11   or I ordered one online that has a ship date

00:45:14   of mid-December and I wanted it sooner,

00:45:16   so I kept going into the stores until they had it

00:45:19   and then I was able to get it there.

00:45:21   But I'm not gonna cancel that pre-order

00:45:23   for the one I ordered,

00:45:25   because I think we need a spare.

00:45:26   And it's gonna be good to just have it in the house.

00:45:29   - Plus you can find out if you can draw on the screen

00:45:31   with two pencils at once.

00:45:32   - That's true. (laughs)

00:45:34   - Wow.

00:45:36   All right, so now that you have a slightly damaged

00:45:40   but otherwise functional pencil,

00:45:43   what is it like to use,

00:45:45   and if you wouldn't mind, can you set the stage as to,

00:45:48   can you self-describe what you would normally do

00:45:51   that's artistic with a pen or pencil?

00:45:53   Are you drawing your own Rembrandts,

00:45:56   or are you just drawing stick figures?

00:45:58   I presume it's somewhere in between.

00:46:00   - Well, I'm not very good at sketching,

00:46:01   which I think the pencil, I feel like it really excels at.

00:46:05   I actually developed a new signature,

00:46:07   if anyone has seen it on Twitter recently,

00:46:09   which is what I decided to do first with my pencil,

00:46:11   is the most important thing,

00:46:12   develop your signature for your iPad art.

00:46:15   - Yeah, I've been writing checks from you all day.

00:46:17   (laughing)

00:46:18   - It's like naming your band in high school

00:46:20   before you've actually practiced once

00:46:22   or gotten together and played anything.

00:46:23   - I'm totally naming my art band.

00:46:24   So I got my art band name,

00:46:27   so that was actually really fun to do on the pencil.

00:46:29   And from what, I've tested three programs now,

00:46:31   and what I've found is it's really dependent on the program

00:46:35   and your level of skill with using these type of programs

00:46:37   on how great the pencil feels.

00:46:41   I do a lot of watercolor in real life, not digitally,

00:46:44   and so trying to replicate that in a lot of programs

00:46:49   is a little bit iffy, obviously, because you have,

00:46:51   you know, you're dealing with like ink flowing

00:46:53   and pigment and water and dilution and transparency.

00:46:58   So that's a little tricky,

00:47:01   but the pencil actually makes it really fun

00:47:04   to play with on the iPad.

00:47:07   And with some medium,

00:47:09   like trying to replicate a medium that's more solid,

00:47:14   the pencil really, really excels

00:47:16   and it feels extremely fluid.

00:47:17   It doesn't detect your hand at all,

00:47:19   which is really amazing.

00:47:21   - Well, when you say it doesn't detect your hand,

00:47:24   you mean if your hand is on there, it's not also drawing,

00:47:27   it's smart enough to throw away the hand portion.

00:47:30   - Yeah, it will detect a fingertip

00:47:33   if you accidentally move a fingertip around,

00:47:36   but with most of these programs,

00:47:38   there's a race in back,

00:47:39   so it's not like you're ruining anything.

00:47:41   But the palm detection is really,

00:47:44   you can rest your hand on the iPad Pro

00:47:47   and draw and it doesn't detect it.

00:47:50   It doesn't smear anything, it doesn't digitally smear,

00:47:53   I don't know, schmear.

00:47:55   So like--

00:47:56   - It's something else.

00:47:57   - I don't know, I'm from Long Island.

00:47:59   So--

00:48:00   - You should know this.

00:48:01   - I do know what it means.

00:48:02   (laughs)

00:48:04   So yeah, so I think it's really, really enjoyable

00:48:08   and so far I've done a number of sketches with it

00:48:11   and I keep wanting to do more.

00:48:13   I almost fell asleep with it last night,

00:48:15   like cradled next to me, which is pretty intimate,

00:48:18   but yeah, I'm really enjoying it.

00:48:21   - So of the apps that you've used with it,

00:48:23   what would you say is your favorite?

00:48:26   And corollary to that, is that the best app for the pencil,

00:48:31   or do you just like the experience with that app the most?

00:48:35   - Well, Marco put two new ones on today,

00:48:38   and before that I was using Adobe Sketch,

00:48:40   is that what I was using?

00:48:41   And then today you put on, what did you put on?

00:48:44   I put on Procreate and, oh jeez,

00:48:47   there's this Japanese name that I forgot

00:48:49   of another very popular sketch.

00:48:50   - Is that the Nico sketch one?

00:48:52   - No, we'll put it in the show notes.

00:48:54   - Anyway, so I was just recently just drawing with those

00:48:58   just before the show and they have more of a learning curve

00:49:02   I think because they're really involved for artists

00:49:05   that know what they're doing.

00:49:06   The Adobe sketch one was pretty,

00:49:10   It was easy to master right away being a newbie,

00:49:14   using the pencil, newbie to art.

00:49:16   You felt like you were accomplishing a real work,

00:49:21   not just a little sketch that you're just gonna delete

00:49:23   and it doesn't matter.

00:49:24   You really felt like you could do it.

00:49:26   The other ones, they have so many changes and buttons

00:49:30   and flows and this and that,

00:49:31   and the interface is a little bit trickier to navigate

00:49:35   if you don't know what you're doing.

00:49:36   But I feel like that those other programs

00:49:39   the programs that you would move on to after you kind of mastered how to manipulate the

00:49:45   pencil with the different art mediums that are available in a lot of these programs.

00:49:50   And the name I was forgetting before was a Taiya Sui Sketches.

00:49:54   I actually went to the Apple Store this past weekend and spent maybe a minute and a half,

00:50:00   two minutes using the pencil. I did ask one of the employees if they had any in stock

00:50:06   and they basically laughed at my face.

00:50:09   I mean, they were much nicer about it than that,

00:50:10   but that was the message, was, yeah, no.

00:50:13   But I did play with it briefly.

00:50:15   I only used the Notes app.

00:50:17   And, I mean, again, I'm no artist,

00:50:19   but I thought it was cool.

00:50:20   I thought the tilting the pencil on its side

00:50:22   to like shade was kinda neat.

00:50:24   But I don't know why,

00:50:26   but the thing that just blew my freakin' mind

00:50:28   was when I got the Notes app out

00:50:31   and I put on the on-screen ruler.

00:50:34   Have you played with this, Tiff?

00:50:35   No, I haven't.

00:50:36   So, in the Notes app, you can bring up an on-screen ruler, and it behaves like you have

00:50:42   a ruler on the page.

00:50:43   It's not perfect because there's no physical barrier to keep you from, you know, flinging

00:50:48   the pencil across your iPad, but it does a really darn good mimic of what a ruler is

00:50:55   like.

00:50:56   It's so stupid, and I don't know why I found that so impressive, but I just thought it

00:51:00   was really, really, really cool.

00:51:02   So you mean like it keeps the line straight?

00:51:04   Correct.

00:51:05   can draw up against the ruler and have a perfectly straight line. And you can spin the ruler around,

00:51:09   and as you spin it, I believe it shows what angle it's at. And it was just very, very neat. Again,

00:51:15   I don't know why I personally would ever need to do that, but I just thought it was so well

00:51:20   implemented and so well done. I also went to the store recently and got to play with the pencil.

00:51:24   I was, the first thing I was struck by was in the Apple store, the pencil is not attached with

00:51:29   anything. Like it's not attached with the little bankers, you know, little metal beaded chain thing.

00:51:34   it is just loose in a little cradle thingy, so I have to imagine those things are walking

00:51:38   out the door like crazy at Apple, especially when they were rare.

00:51:42   But anyway, I did get to try it, although the first thing that confused me was I couldn't

00:51:46   figure out why it wasn't working because it was paired with the one, like they have the

00:51:49   pencil in the middle of two iPad Pros and it was paired with the other one, so I just

00:51:51   plugged it into my thing and repaired it, which is nice, that feature, that repairing

00:51:55   feature is cool and comes in handy, I didn't have to go to the stupid Bluetooth thing to

00:51:59   pair it.

00:52:01   it. I've experienced all the same things we talked about in past shows. It varies widely by app. Some

00:52:06   of them are slow, some of them are fast. The Notes app was the fastest one that I tried because they

00:52:10   had a bunch of different apps installed on it. It was fun, it was interesting. The Notes app,

00:52:15   the pencil tool that's supposed to look like a pencil, they keep showing like, "Oh, you can

00:52:18   tilt to do shading and stuff like that." That is the one part of the Notes app that felt the least

00:52:22   like real media to me. And my bias is that I have habits in my hands and my mind and

00:52:33   my body from using real pencils and stuff for many many years when I was a kid. And

00:52:38   every time I use anything that involves drawing on a tablet or on a screen or whatever, it's

00:52:44   almost as if it was farther away from the real thing I would feel more comfortable because

00:52:48   that I wouldn't be trying to use the motions and gestures that I'm used to from the real

00:52:54   physical world of art media.

00:52:56   But the pencil is close enough to real media that I expect it to work more like a pencil,

00:53:01   and the tilt shading thing just does not work anything like an actual pencil.

00:53:06   And so I was continually frustrated by the fact that I had to stop myself from doing

00:53:10   what I would do with an actual pencil and start doing what this pencil demands.

00:53:13   In particular, I found that a lot of the lines that I draw,

00:53:17   I draw with the pencil tilted at such an angle

00:53:20   that the accelerometers in the pencil

00:53:21   think I want to do shading,

00:53:22   but in reality with a real physical pencil on paper,

00:53:25   I'm still just using the tip.

00:53:26   And I found that very frustrating

00:53:28   and it made me have to change how I was doing everything

00:53:30   to be more directly into the screen

00:53:33   to make sure it does a thin line.

00:53:35   If I could disable the shading thing

00:53:38   or change like the ratio of like,

00:53:39   don't even start shading thing until I'm super tilted over.

00:53:43   - Yeah, that really bothered me a lot,

00:53:45   but that's just, I think that is more of a barrier

00:53:47   of like people who are good at using computers to draw.

00:53:51   It is actually, I think, a different enough skill

00:53:53   from people who are good at using pencils or pen or paints

00:53:56   or any other media.

00:53:57   The media really, the thing that you're using,

00:53:59   the medium really does change how you use things.

00:54:02   So if I got one of these and I was actually using it to draw

00:54:05   I think I would have to, I would have a learning curve

00:54:08   to learn how to use this tool to draw

00:54:09   in the same way that you learn how to use it

00:54:11   like oil pastels versus oil paints versus acrylics or anything like that.

00:54:15   But bottom line is I feel like this could be used to very easily be used by someone

00:54:22   to do their work as an artist because it is so close to in terms of responsiveness a real

00:54:30   pencil.

00:54:31   It's so much closer than all the things I've used in the past.

00:54:33   And from what I've heard from actual artists, even the people who are using the top of the

00:54:36   line current generation tablet type things, that it's pretty good.

00:54:40   It's either better than or at the very least at least as good as the existing tablet technology.

00:54:44   So good job for Apple on its first try.

00:54:46   All right, its first try not counting the Newton once again.

00:54:49   Poor Newton on my desk here feels bad when I say this.

00:54:52   First try not counting the Newton of doing really good pen input for artists.

00:54:57   And also the pencil feels really nice.

00:55:00   It doesn't cramp your hand while you're using it, which is great.

00:55:03   It is very comfortable.

00:55:05   And before when I was using the iPad Pro,

00:55:08   I felt the weight of the iPad Pro all the time

00:55:11   without the pencil.

00:55:13   So I was sitting with it, we were watching movies,

00:55:16   I tried to read with it.

00:55:18   Some people think that that's awesome.

00:55:20   The reading experience is really great.

00:55:21   I found it awful on the iPad Pro, it is way too big.

00:55:26   But when I was sketching with the pencil,

00:55:29   the weight just kind of disappeared

00:55:31   and I kind of didn't notice it and it felt so natural

00:55:34   and great to have this really big screen.

00:55:36   So my experience with the iPad Pro itself

00:55:39   without the pencil was a disaster

00:55:42   and I kinda wasn't sure I even wanted it to keep it.

00:55:46   And I played with it for a few hours

00:55:48   and then I kinda left it on the table.

00:55:50   I wasn't interested in using it any further than that

00:55:53   because it felt just too heavy, too big,

00:55:55   too much stuff going on

00:55:57   or too little stuff with the home screen icons.

00:55:59   But as soon as I got the pencil,

00:56:02   It has been in my lap every free moment

00:56:05   that I could possibly find.

00:56:06   - Do you not subscribe to any magazines?

00:56:08   Like digital or otherwise, like big magazines

00:56:11   that like, you know, I don't know.

00:56:12   - I was subscribed to Martha Stewart's magazine actually,

00:56:15   but she filled it all up with ads like her real magazine

00:56:18   and now it's horrible to read and the ads move

00:56:20   on the digital ones so that was worthless so I ditched that

00:56:23   so now I don't subscribe to any magazines.

00:56:25   - I try to read some digital magazines.

00:56:28   My iPad is really slow so I tend to prefer the paper ones.

00:56:31   My wife reads some magazines on her iPad.

00:56:34   She used to, I think she used to read them on her mini too,

00:56:36   but now she's got a full-size one.

00:56:37   And I can imagine the best application aside,

00:56:41   like comic books and stuff like that,

00:56:42   for a big, gigantic iPad would be magazines

00:56:46   with big illustrations or photos,

00:56:49   like a photography magazine, a nature magazine,

00:56:51   a fashion magazine, or even a car magazine.

00:56:54   - Yeah, I could see those being amazing.

00:56:56   But I mean, when I read romance novels,

00:56:58   I really don't want that very large and visible

00:57:01   to everyone in the world.

00:57:02   - Yeah.

00:57:02   (laughing)

00:57:03   I mean, the way you can think about it

00:57:04   for the iPad Pro for reading is,

00:57:08   if you could imagine yourself comfortably reading

00:57:11   a paper book of that size,

00:57:14   then the iPad Pro is great for it.

00:57:15   So the magazines, paper magazines are as big as iPad Pro,

00:57:18   especially the very large ones like Edge Magazine

00:57:20   before they shrunk it and made it crappy.

00:57:22   But anyway, or I don't know how big Vogue is these days,

00:57:24   but there are magazines that are very large

00:57:26   and you can say, "Sure, I can do that."

00:57:27   But novels are paper book size,

00:57:30   Paperback size usually even hardcovers are not as big as the iPad Pro in most cases, right?

00:57:35   The most of the paperbacks I have on my shelf even the biggest ones I have up here are more or less

00:57:40   iPad Air 2 size not iPad Pro size

00:57:43   So it is a little oversized that but as I said last week

00:57:46   The whole idea is maybe not for reading novels or anything

00:57:49   You can have other stuff on the screen at the same time

00:57:52   so you can bounce back and forth between Twitter and flipping through the latest issue of

00:57:56   you know, car and driver or whatever.

00:57:59   - And that's kind of like a general theme

00:58:01   that we've found so far with the iPad Pro is like,

00:58:04   it's really good for certain things,

00:58:07   but that is, it doesn't overlap completely

00:58:09   with what the smaller iPads are really good at.

00:58:11   Like, you would think that what the iPad Pro

00:58:15   would be great at would be like a strict superset,

00:58:19   where it would include everything

00:58:20   that the small ones are good at,

00:58:21   plus also some new stuff.

00:58:23   And I don't think that's actually the case,

00:58:24   and that's okay.

00:58:26   You know, in the same way that a 17 inch MacBook Pro,

00:58:30   may it rest in peace, is not great at everything

00:58:33   you want a laptop to be for.

00:58:36   You know, like if you wanted to be using it on a plane,

00:58:38   or if you want to be carrying it around all the time,

00:58:39   a 17 inch MacBook Pro is not that great for that.

00:58:42   That doesn't mean that the entire MacBook Pro line

00:58:45   has to be small, thin, and light.

00:58:48   You know, so I think now we're reaching that point

00:58:50   with the iPad lineup that it has substantial differentiation

00:58:54   between the models now, and that's okay.

00:58:57   You can't just be sure that if you like one of the iPads,

00:59:00   you can't be sure that the next one up

00:59:03   will be better in every way for you.

00:59:05   - So Tiff, if you were to go to your parents' house

00:59:11   for a few days, would you bring it with you?

00:59:15   - That's a really good question.

00:59:16   Probably not, because I don't have time to sit

00:59:21   and sketch or draw or paint anything.

00:59:25   So I never brought my painting supplies there,

00:59:28   even though I have travel ones.

00:59:30   So probably not, but I would bring my regular size iPad

00:59:35   because sometimes I do like to read when I'm there,

00:59:38   like during naps or evening or I don't know.

00:59:41   But so, so no, I probably wouldn't

00:59:44   because it's really big too.

00:59:47   And the internet connection is not so great.

00:59:49   - Oh, that's a different issue.

00:59:50   - I'm assuming since you wouldn't bring it to mom and dads

00:59:52   that you probably wouldn't bring it on like a trip

00:59:55   or something like that.

00:59:56   Like let's say, you know, Tesla does European delivery

00:59:59   which I understand makes no sense.

01:00:01   And you guys, or maybe all of us go again.

01:00:05   Would you bring this on that sort of a trip?

01:00:08   - No, I wouldn't.

01:00:09   I wouldn't because I'm not a digital artist.

01:00:11   I'm just now learning and getting interested

01:00:14   in trying to do it because it is just like John was saying,

01:00:17   It's very different holding a stylus to a screen

01:00:21   and trying to get it to mimic paint moving

01:00:24   or a brush with bristles that are dynamic

01:00:27   and move and swirl.

01:00:29   Translating that, if that's what you wanna do

01:00:32   is you wanna paint something, satisfying that

01:00:34   doesn't happen on the iPad.

01:00:36   But if you want to do something,

01:00:38   create a digital piece of art,

01:00:40   which I find is just like another medium.

01:00:43   You have paint, you have pencil, you have digital art.

01:00:46   It's just another way to do it.

01:00:47   And it's another set of skills

01:00:49   that you need to learn and develop.

01:00:51   So if I got into that, then yeah,

01:00:54   I would see myself carrying this with me

01:00:56   to accomplish that task if I wanted to create

01:01:00   a digital journal of a trip I was going on.

01:01:02   But as of right now, no, because I'm just not enough,

01:01:06   I'm not skilled enough, but I can definitely see a place

01:01:09   for it for other people.

01:01:11   But for me, it's just too big.

01:01:14   - Yeah, speaking of digital journals,

01:01:15   Like that is a thing that Apple should aspire to make the iPad Pro into a good tool for,

01:01:21   like in terms of people, some people do this and some people don't like to, like while

01:01:25   you're on the trip, say you're going on a trip to Europe, while you're there, like at

01:01:28   the end of each day that you take the photos off your camera, put them right into your

01:01:33   iPad Pro with the USB port that we'll talk about in a little bit maybe, use the various

01:01:38   applications available on the iPad Pro to compose either a cool looking web page or

01:01:43   or a slideshow or a movie or something that you can share with everybody else and at the

01:01:46   end of each day you would send out to your family or whoever is interested, here's how

01:01:50   our second day in Italy was, right? Or even just to be working on it so that by the time

01:01:55   you come home from the trip you have everything sort of assembled together into whatever form

01:01:59   that you decide you want to share your trip with, whether it's a series of pictures or

01:02:02   a slideshow or a movie or a webpage with a bunch of pictures and blog posts, all the

01:02:07   type of things that we all know that we can do with computers and websites. I think the

01:02:13   The existing image of the iPad in most people's mind, and in the reality for most people other

01:02:18   than maybe Vitici, is that the best way to synthesize all those different things, photos,

01:02:25   video, text, web stuff, you know, emailing people, compiling all that information, the

01:02:32   best way to do that is still on a Mac.

01:02:34   And I see no reason that the iPad Pro can't be as good or better at almost all those things,

01:02:39   especially with the stylus input if you wanted to annotate pictures, like can you imagine

01:02:43   arranging pictures and a lot like an application that lets you sort of build a vacation album where you could hand write underneath the

01:02:48   things little captions

01:02:49   wouldn't that be a lot more personal if you assuming you have legible handwriting then typing in captions for things and you know being

01:02:55   Able to touch things and drag things around as if they were actually photos in a real scrapbook and stuff

01:02:59   The iPad Pro would be perfect for that. But that is that's only promise at this point

01:03:04   I'm sure there are applications that do this but like bringing it all together touch stylus

01:03:09   photography

01:03:11   importing multiple applications, working on a single thing

01:03:13   and then sharing it out to everybody.

01:03:15   I don't think we're there yet,

01:03:17   but I totally think we could be in the iPad Pro

01:03:19   would be the perfect device for that.

01:03:21   - Yeah, there's no doubt that the iPad Pro

01:03:23   will make that experience way better

01:03:25   for anyone who really likes doing that

01:03:28   and is already kind of doing that on a laptop.

01:03:31   So I feel like the people who are committed

01:03:34   to doing that kind of thing,

01:03:36   that work on the go, vacation journaling,

01:03:40   or scrapbooking and sending it out to family.

01:03:43   It's gonna open up to a lot more people with the iPad

01:03:47   because it becomes way more accessible.

01:03:49   But it's again, it's another,

01:03:50   it's a thing you have to be into doing.

01:03:53   I feel like, for me in the end of,

01:03:56   in the evenings and stuff when I'm on vacation

01:03:57   and I'm doing stuff,

01:03:59   I kind of just wanna like read Twitter,

01:04:01   put my one photo on Instagram and move on.

01:04:03   You know, like committing to all of that work

01:04:06   while on vacation, I think takes a certain type of person

01:04:10   and that's the person that's gonna really grab hold

01:04:12   of this kind of device and run with it.

01:04:15   - Well, the best kind of technology

01:04:17   actually changes habits a little bit.

01:04:20   So a lot of us were not the type of people

01:04:22   who made family movies of anything,

01:04:25   but when iMovie came out and it made it simple and fun

01:04:29   to make a quick little movie, even if in turn--

01:04:31   - Don't tell me about iMovie.

01:04:33   It is not simple and it is not fun.

01:04:35   (laughing)

01:04:36   - Every Christmas is like iMovie stress hell

01:04:40   in this household.

01:04:40   - I make a Christmas movie every year

01:04:42   with a stop motion video of us unwrapping gifts and stuff,

01:04:45   and it is hell every time.

01:04:47   And I'm also very upset that there aren't any new themes

01:04:50   ever, ever, ever, ever.

01:04:51   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:52   My point is that those applications,

01:04:54   the iLife applications,

01:04:56   made people who would never even consider doing that

01:04:59   try it at least once.

01:05:00   A whole bunch of people tried it

01:05:02   and were more or less successful at some percentage ratio,

01:05:05   50% or whatever people who did not suddenly become people who make videos for every occasion in their life

01:05:10   But they did it maybe once maybe twice right because the application suddenly made it possible

01:05:16   It wasn't like well, I can't make a video of my family

01:05:19   All I can do is shoot the video and record to my little you know

01:05:23   VHS or mini TV or whatever and then we can all watch it from start to end and it's interminable

01:05:27   But I'm never gonna edit this video because I'm not a video editor and the early days of the I life suite

01:05:32   Made it so that regular people who were never considered themselves video editors

01:05:36   Suddenly had a tool in their house that they could use

01:05:38   To edit a little video and they tried it and found it's really difficult and you make crappy videos

01:05:43   But they did it once or twice and I feel like the iPad Pro

01:05:45   with stylus input and everything could take people who were never in a million years go through all the work to do it on a

01:05:51   Laptop and know how to synthesize all that stuff and make it and if there's one or two good applications in the iPad Pro with stylus

01:05:57   Support maybe someone who isn't one of those people who makes albums at the end of every vacation day

01:06:01   brings their iPad Pro with them and tries it once and sends out a nice thing like that's all I'm talking about

01:06:06   it's like it's it's small stakes, but

01:06:08   technology can sort of like lower the barrier to entry to the point where

01:06:12   People who are never going to be serious about it still will like dabble for a second or two and find out yeah

01:06:19   This still isn't for me. But hey, I made this cool thing out of it

01:06:21   I mean that's the way exactly I feel now about the digital art before I never even considered ever ever ever trying to do anything

01:06:29   digital and because this thing kind of appeared and Marco buys everything so things appear.

01:06:36   So it all of a sudden piqued my interest into trying this medium that I never

01:06:42   would have tried before because I'm not going to go out and purchase a tablet and purchase,

01:06:47   you know, this and even though I do have a tablet, we have one of those because we have everything.

01:06:51   But we've had a Wacom tablet sitting in the closet for about five years. Well,

01:06:54   Well, I tried it for photo editing and it was awful, for me.

01:06:57   And I'm not gonna go out and get a program and learn it.

01:07:01   But with this, it just feels so accessible and attainable

01:07:06   to learn how to do at least a base level

01:07:09   of this kind of thing.

01:07:11   - So iPad Pro Ultimate at home iPad?

01:07:15   - Yes, at home iPad.

01:07:17   - I mean, I would even say also,

01:07:19   I think I said a little bit of this last week too,

01:07:21   but my further time playing with it just reinforces this.

01:07:25   I think it's the kind of thing where

01:07:26   if you were already using an iPad

01:07:29   for productivity kind of work,

01:07:32   then this will probably be even better for you.

01:07:36   You know, if you were already doing like email

01:07:38   and documents and spreadsheets and stuff like that,

01:07:41   you know, on an iPad before,

01:07:43   then this will probably be an improvement.

01:07:46   But it is kind of like a laptop in that way.

01:07:49   Like, you know, if it has replaced your laptop,

01:07:53   or if it has almost replaced your laptop already

01:07:57   before you had an iPad Pro, then yeah,

01:08:00   this is probably the device for you.

01:08:01   Or if you have some of these nice creative uses,

01:08:05   if you plan to use the pencil,

01:08:07   if you could make use of such a thing,

01:08:09   this is also gonna be amazing for you.

01:08:11   If you are currently using an iPad with a keyboard,

01:08:14   and you want a better, larger keyboard,

01:08:17   this will probably be amazing for you as well,

01:08:19   we don't have the keyboard so we can't really say how good they are. Many people

01:08:22   have covered that already. But if you're using your iPad primarily for content consumption,

01:08:29   or if you're like me and you can't quite figure out when to use your iPad for the most

01:08:34   part, then it's more of a mixed bag. It's not a guarantee that this will be better for

01:08:39   you and it isn't a guarantee that you would be happy with it if you got it. So that is

01:08:44   still up in the air, but I will say that for the things that it is good at, like that pen

01:08:49   input it is it is so good that like for me as as a longtime iPad skeptic and

01:08:55   just kind of not having much much use for my iPads I want a reason to use it I

01:09:00   actually am motivated to try to use it and to try to get into it because using

01:09:05   the pencil is just so damn fun I want to ask that to Casey because if you're what

01:09:10   if you're the guy here who says he does not do art stuff right am I correct

01:09:15   you said John does a little bit I know Marco does a little bit he's a liar and

01:09:19   (laughs)

01:09:21   And I do, but for you, does this intrigue you

01:09:24   to start possibly playing around and seeing

01:09:28   if you want to learn how to draw

01:09:30   and to start that learning on the iPad?

01:09:33   - I don't think so.

01:09:35   I mean, to be fair, I've only played with the pencil,

01:09:37   like I said, for like a minute or two.

01:09:38   It was not very much at all.

01:09:40   And I thought it was neat,

01:09:42   but it struck me as the sort of thing

01:09:44   that I would think this is really neat for a week or two

01:09:46   and that I'd probably never look at it again.

01:09:48   Now who knows, maybe in that week or two,

01:09:50   I would get bit by the art bug, if you will,

01:09:52   and then I would never put it down.

01:09:54   But my guess is I would think, ooh, shiny, ooh, neat,

01:09:59   for a week, maybe two, and then I would just never look back.

01:10:04   I wish I could do it.

01:10:07   - Someone in the chat asked about TIFF,

01:10:09   how about photography work?

01:10:10   And I think this is worth touching on briefly.

01:10:12   Would you use it for photography?

01:10:14   If so, why?

01:10:15   If not, why not?

01:10:17   I guess right now not because the way I edit my photos,

01:10:21   it's very, very heavy in Photoshop.

01:10:24   And I feel like just the power and the hardware

01:10:29   that's needed to run the Photoshop that I like to run

01:10:36   when I edit my photos is just not there on the iPad.

01:10:41   I could see it if they ended up translating that

01:10:46   onto the iPad with the touch interface,

01:10:48   it might be interesting to do,

01:10:50   but I don't know, the precision of some

01:10:52   of the Photoshop actions that I do

01:10:54   really probably would not translate that great.

01:10:58   And for me, I have to edit photos

01:11:01   if anyone else is out there who is a photographer

01:11:04   or edits photos, you know that if you use

01:11:08   a different screen for editing your photos,

01:11:10   not a screen that you have calibrated

01:11:12   with a printer that you use

01:11:13   or that you're used to working with,

01:11:15   you can move photos from one device to another

01:11:18   and the colors will be all wrong that you have worked on.

01:11:22   So you could sit and you could work on a picture

01:11:24   for 20 minutes if you're dibble dabbling

01:11:29   at all over the place and putting filters on

01:11:31   and taking them off like I do,

01:11:32   like an insane person because I'm crazy.

01:11:35   But if you do that, you would have it on one device

01:11:38   and you put it on another and then all of a sudden

01:11:39   it's not what you wanted it to be.

01:11:42   Which that frustration exists when I give photos to clients

01:11:45   and they don't have the right color,

01:11:46   but I've found a way to fix that anyway.

01:11:49   But it just, it's not, right now,

01:11:52   right now it's not accessible on the level

01:11:55   that I'm playing with here.

01:11:57   And I think that a lot of other people feel that too.

01:11:59   But if you're just doing, you know,

01:12:00   you're moving some sliders around,

01:12:01   which the majority of our family photos,

01:12:04   that's all that it needs, then it is pretty accessible,

01:12:07   but I don't like having my photos in two places.

01:12:10   - Maybe actually I have something in the show notes

01:12:11   about that, there was this thing in Macworld

01:12:13   about the display quality, the color accuracy of the iPad Pro versus the Surface Pro 4 and

01:12:20   other things. And iPad Pro didn't come out that well in this test. There's no bad screens

01:12:25   here, these are all good screens, but the Surface Pro 4 edged it out. And I forget what

01:12:30   the company is that does this, that tests all the displays.

01:12:33   DisplayMate, I believe?

01:12:34   Yeah. And historically, Apple has been weird with the displays because it's, you know,

01:12:40   they always say all their displays, "This is the most beautiful display you've ever

01:12:42   put in a blah blah blah like they always say they're great they don't tend to

01:12:45   differentiate but whenever anyone does any actual testing with the color meter

01:12:48   some models of device have super accurate displays and some have not so

01:12:53   accurate ones and it doesn't follow any particular lines like I think they were

01:12:56   saying like the best screen Apple had ever put on was like on one of the minis

01:13:00   or something yeah that the most recent iPad mini the mini 4 yeah so they're all

01:13:05   pretty good but you know but there there's enough variance that what Tiff

01:13:09   is saying is surely, it's not just like that, you know, even screens that are all equally

01:13:14   good, they can be different from each other if they're not calibrated, but then in some

01:13:17   cases it's just like this screen can't display the same range of colors that that screen

01:13:21   can, so no amount of calibration is ever going to make them look the same same.

01:13:24   It's also interesting that they have the nice DCI P3 10-bit screens on the new iMacs,

01:13:33   but that didn't make it into the iPad Pro. I wonder, and as far as I know, I don't

01:13:38   IOS even supports 10-bit colors.

01:13:40   That's probably one of the reasons why.

01:13:42   But it'd be interesting to see if and when

01:13:44   that gets added to IOS,

01:13:45   'cause that could really help as well.

01:13:48   - Yeah, it's not the iMac Pro, but it's got the good screen.

01:13:50   But the iPad Pro, not so much.

01:13:51   I mean, obviously there's different constraints

01:13:53   for a handheld device.

01:13:54   Like, who knows what the requirements are.

01:13:56   That extra little bit of color accuracy

01:13:58   and the 10-bit range and everything,

01:13:59   maybe that's just not feasible at all

01:14:01   in a handheld battery-powered device yet.

01:14:04   - The extra gamut would be nice, though.

01:14:05   But anyway.

01:14:06   All right, any other questions for Tiff on iPad Pro?

01:14:09   - Just in general, sounds like thumbs up.

01:14:12   - Yeah, yeah, I really like it,

01:14:13   and I think that I'm going to develop liking it even more

01:14:16   because as I get better at the, you know,

01:14:19   doing the digital art thing,

01:14:20   that I think it's gonna become more and more useful

01:14:24   as another tool of hobby, I think.

01:14:29   You know, it's not my profession at all,

01:14:31   so it's very much a hobby tool,

01:14:34   but it's a pretty darn fun one.

01:14:37   - Awesome, well thanks for coming on and sharing with us.

01:14:39   - Yeah, thanks for having me guys.

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01:17:09   All right, so there's more about the iPad Pro, I believe, or no?

01:17:13   Well, we can talk about the USB thing, but that can stay until next week if we get more

01:17:17   info about it. The bottom line is that the iPad Pro is definitely the device where you

01:17:20   want to have a speedy way to shove stuff into it and Apple has said that there's

01:17:25   that you're gonna be able to do that with USB 3 speeds.

01:17:28   Is there really a lot of motion behind tethered over the cable transfer of

01:17:35   files to iOS devices these days?

01:17:37   I imagine it's all cameras, right? Like if you could

01:17:41   connect your camera directly up to your, well I guess you could do it wirelessly

01:17:44   if you wanted, but if you connect your camera or some other card reader or

01:17:48   thing directly to your iPad, then you could go on the road with just the iPad and the

01:17:52   camera and do some useful photography work.

01:17:55   That's true. That actually, and you know, I might use it for that. I mean, there are

01:17:58   some trips where I bring my laptop now, like if I'm going to a conference, I bring my

01:18:03   laptop but I really don't usually need it for any kind of laptop-y function that I can't

01:18:09   serve just as well by my phone or an iPad. So, you know, I can see the value in having

01:18:15   They've had, ever since the first iPad, they've sold the camera connection kit, which has

01:18:21   either been able to be an SD card reader or a USB port, which you can use to plug in all

01:18:25   sorts of crazy stuff you don't even think about.

01:18:27   But a surprising amount of driverless USB peripherals work on iPads with the camera

01:18:33   connection kit.

01:18:34   And some even work on iPhones.

01:18:35   But anyway, so I could see that being possible, but because the camera connection kit is a

01:18:42   fairly rarely sold accessory as far as I know.

01:18:46   They've never seemed to put a whole lot of effort

01:18:48   into the process and the capabilities

01:18:51   of importing photos off a camera card

01:18:53   into the Photos app on iPads.

01:18:56   So I don't know how well it would work in practice.

01:18:58   I have one, so I guess I could try it.

01:19:00   I think I'll report back next week on how it works.

01:19:02   I also wouldn't expect it to do very well

01:19:04   on my 42 megapixel raw files, but we'll see about that.

01:19:08   - Oh, that's why USB 3 speeds, 'cause that's the big thing.

01:19:11   lightning port was previously not at those speeds and it's kind of a pain if you have

01:19:15   gigantic files and now with the iPad Pro this port is capable, I don't know if the adapters

01:19:21   are out yet or if they're not out yet, but anyway, will be capable of USB 3.0 speeds

01:19:26   and so that will really help.

01:19:27   I mean generally when it comes to like processing raw photos on something like an iPad the...

01:19:32   You think the card is the limit?

01:19:33   No, I think the processing power of the device is the limit because when you're processing

01:19:37   raw files you have to do the reading and the JPEG conversion on device. It isn't already

01:19:43   done for you. And the cameras all have these really specialized image processors to do

01:19:48   it in like a highly parallel optimized way. The computers are doing it generally on the

01:19:55   CPU entirely or maybe with some light GPU help and it's a pretty slow process to do

01:20:01   large raw imports. So I'm guessing that would be much more useful for JPEG shooters or even

01:20:07   the RAW plus JPEG weirdos like I was briefly.

01:20:09   But for people shooting RAW who want to do

01:20:13   a couple of quick imports to show somebody

01:20:16   or preview or post it to a social network,

01:20:18   it probably won't be useful for that,

01:20:20   but I'd love to try and be proven wrong.

01:20:23   So maybe I'll try it, I'll let you know.

01:20:24   - Well, I mean, there's two things.

01:20:26   There's the file transfer,

01:20:28   and then there's the RAW conversion,

01:20:29   even just for display purposes.

01:20:31   So if you can make the part where it just copies

01:20:33   the RAW data directly off of the card

01:20:34   onto the iPad faster than it gives you more time to spend with your slower CPU doing the

01:20:38   raw conversion for display.

01:20:40   Anyway, even if it's not just for photography, the idea that lighting...

01:20:44   This was an open question.

01:20:45   This is why I have this link in there.

01:20:46   Back when the lighting port was made, it's like, "Lightning, how fast will it go?

01:20:50   Why did they not use USB?

01:20:51   Why did they not change it to USB-C?

01:20:53   Is it even possible to do USB 3 speeds over lightning?

01:20:57   Oh no, you can't because it doesn't have enough pins because the USB 3 connector has more

01:21:00   pins than the contacts that are on the lightning connector and this link in the show notes

01:21:04   was from someone who did a lot of investigation into the lightning port back when it was introduced.

01:21:10   It was this Rainer Brockerhoff blog and he has come back to talk about the lack of pins

01:21:15   and the decision he came down to is that you don't need all the pins of a real USB thing

01:21:22   because they have dedicated pins for the USB 2 speeds and lightning doesn't have to do

01:21:26   that because it can multiplex and it can say look I'm not doing USB 2 speeds, use those

01:21:29   two pins for something else.

01:21:31   But we'll see.

01:21:33   I think people who are doing teardowns on the iPad Pro said they found what looked like

01:21:37   two new connectors inside there, so maybe the adapters will have extra contacts?

01:21:40   I don't know how it'll work.

01:21:41   We'll have to wait until these adapters are introduced, and if they're already out, I

01:21:44   just haven't seen them yet.

01:21:45   So there's some follow-up for next week.

01:21:47   All right.

01:21:48   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Squarespace, MailRoute, and Automattic, and

01:21:53   we'll see you next week.

01:21:57   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:22:02   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:22:05   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:22:08   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:22:12   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:22:15   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:22:18   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:22:23   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:22:32   So that's Kasey Liszt, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:22:36   Anti-Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:22:44   It's accidental (accidental)

01:22:47   They didn't mean to (accidental)

01:22:52   ♪ Tech, I've cast so long ♪

01:22:56   - I do very much want to talk Disney,

01:22:59   but I think we're better off tonight talking about the iMac.

01:23:02   - Yeah, no, that's totally a different after show.

01:23:04   All right. (laughing)

01:23:06   So iMac, this is not my computer to be clear.

01:23:08   This is not replacing my Mac Pro.

01:23:10   My good old 2008 Mac Pro is still here.

01:23:12   I'm speaking into it right now.

01:23:13   This is a replacement for my wife's 2011-ish MacBook Air,

01:23:18   which was getting long in the tooth

01:23:20   and our photos couldn't fit on anymore.

01:23:22   So we had an external SSD, but it was only FireEye 800.

01:23:25   And that was part of the reason I thought photos

01:23:26   might've been slow.

01:23:27   And anyway, got a big fancy new iMac

01:23:30   after hearing Marco report good things about his

01:23:33   27 inch retina iMac.

01:23:35   And this is the newer fancier model

01:23:36   with the even nicer screen.

01:23:38   And she had always said that she just wanted

01:23:41   an iMac at home anyway.

01:23:42   Even as she continually took the MacBook Air

01:23:46   out of the room when I podcasted

01:23:47   so she could still use her computer without being here.

01:23:49   But anyway, she can still do that

01:23:50   'cause we still have the MacBook Air.

01:23:51   Grace just moved over to the other desk, but she's using the iMac and liking it.

01:23:55   Few things for me to report.

01:23:57   I never really spent any time with Marcos.

01:23:59   I saw it, and the ones in the store that I've seen them, but I haven't really spent a lot

01:24:02   of time with them.

01:24:04   For mine, I decided to not max out the RAM.

01:24:07   I didn't do too much research into this, but I just saw in the store configurator it said

01:24:12   16 gigs for like two DIMMs and 32 gigs for four, so I picked 16, figuring, can't I just

01:24:18   buy two more DIMMs and up it to 32 later?

01:24:21   If that's not true, don't tell me until four years from now when I find out.

01:24:24   I just don't want to know.

01:24:26   But I assume it's true.

01:24:27   But anyway, 16 gigs should probably be fine.

01:24:30   I got the biggest, fastest GPU because whatever.

01:24:33   I was convinced by that YouTube video, fingers crossed, that this will actually not be a

01:24:37   silly thing to do.

01:24:38   My kids can now play.

01:24:39   My kids have finally now seen Minecraft at non-disgusting frame rates.

01:24:44   And I think I'm more impressed than they are, but I think at the same time they're never

01:24:47   going to choose to play it on the MacBook Air ever again.

01:24:49   I don't blame them.

01:24:52   And I got the big terabyte SSD because I really want to fit everything on this thing instead

01:24:57   of on my external drive, which I still have, but it's an enclosure that takes Firewire

01:25:01   800.

01:25:02   So I also had to, by the way, buy a lightning to a lightning Thunderbolt to Firewire 800

01:25:06   adapter so I could connect my chain of Firewire 800 drives and enclosures and everything,

01:25:12   which is fine.

01:25:13   I also have a USB 3 hard drive that I can finally connect to an actual USB 3 port.

01:25:17   And that was one of the first things I noticed about this was I have a bus powered 1 terabyte,

01:25:24   like 2.5 inch USB 3 drive.

01:25:27   I've had it for a while and I decided I'm going to use this.

01:25:30   I'll use this as the clone drive for this, you know, one of my super duper clones.

01:25:35   And I kept finding that when the Mac would go to sleep and wake back up, it would say,

01:25:40   you know, "This disk was not ejected properly, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

01:25:43   Like it was unmounting itself somewhere along the line and that usually means that it's

01:25:49   being underpowered by the bus and it's just not able to maintain the connection but then

01:25:54   it comes back.

01:25:55   I don't understand that because it's not connected to a hub.

01:25:58   It's directly connected to the computer and I haven't ever had that problem on any other

01:26:01   computers I've connected this to but then again I haven't had it connected to other

01:26:04   computers for really long periods of time.

01:26:06   So I don't know if I have a broken drive, if the ports in the back of the iMac can't

01:26:11   supply enough power for this thing. Whatever it is, that kind of annoyed me, but I'm willing

01:26:16   to chalk that up to the flakiness of external peripherals, and right now I only connect

01:26:20   it when I want to do a clone, which is a reasonable solution, I suppose. Although I have a whole

01:26:24   other drive at the end of the firewall, a hundred chain to do a clone to.

01:26:28   If you want, I have an enclosure that I bought like three of them now. It's something like

01:26:32   twelve dollars. It's a USB 3, single disk, 2.5 inch enclosure, and it's... I had... one

01:26:39   One of them would do that exact same thing when it was on a really flaky USB hub that

01:26:43   I used to have.

01:26:44   But so far, this enclosure, two of them that I bought have been perfect, and for $12 it's

01:26:50   been just as good as the expensive ones I've gotten from OWC and stuff in the past.

01:26:56   That's why I had Direct Connected.

01:26:57   I never considered connecting to a hub, because I knew that wouldn't work, but even Direct

01:27:00   Connect to the iMac was flaky, so I don't know.

01:27:03   Anyway, that's a peripheral issue.

01:27:05   The main thing I noticed about this iMac off the bat is that the fan in all states is slightly

01:27:12   noisier than I thought it would be.

01:27:14   Of course.

01:27:15   Really?

01:27:16   Even in the most idle, like nothing is happening on the computer, I download the utilities,

01:27:20   it shows me the fan RPM, like the lowest possible RPM, I can still hear it more than I could

01:27:26   hear the fan on the MacBook Air.

01:27:29   For two reasons.

01:27:30   One, the MacBook Air was like back a little bit farther, like it was kind of behind the

01:27:33   monitor and to the left.

01:27:35   And two, when the MacBook Air fan is like doing nothing, it is really quiet.

01:27:40   Now the flip side of that is that you do anything to the MacBook Air, the fan goes up to super,

01:27:44   you know, as fast as it can possibly go and sounds like a terrible angry hairdryer, right?

01:27:48   So on the iMac, you can do way more before the fan starts spinning up.

01:27:52   So overall, it's probably a benefit, but every time I sit in front of the computer, I keep

01:27:56   thinking, "Did I leave one of the hard drives on?"

01:27:58   Because I have so many friggin' hard drives connected to this thing for all my different

01:28:01   backups, and I don't leave them on all the time.

01:28:02   I actually unmount them and turn them off and you know how like a hard drive that's on and spinning makes some noise a mechanical

01:28:08   Hard drive I keep thinking that why I left one of the drives on but no it's just a stupid fan of this thing anyway

01:28:13   It's not my computer. It's fine. It's probably still quieter than my 2008 Mac Pro

01:28:17   Although maybe not because my Mac Pro is on the ground that I don't really hear it

01:28:20   But anyway that that is my one mild disappointment everything else about it is great screen looks great

01:28:26   I don't even mind the weird thin edge

01:28:28   I think it looks actually kind of cool because I do see it from the edge sometimes

01:28:32   For a while I kept thinking that the hinge was loose because it kept being tilted down, but that's just my wife

01:28:37   She keeps tilting it down, then I use the computer and I tilt it up, and then she tilts it down.

01:28:41   So we're kind of fighting over what the correct position is for the screen, but we're obviously different heights there.

01:28:46   Photos is faster. It is much faster than it was when I was on my FireEye 800 drive.

01:28:52   It is still slow, and it's still weird and buggy. When I brought the library over,

01:28:58   You know I had to copy it off my external drive that took forever and photos was really weird about like I copied every single

01:29:05   file over and photos was like I have

01:29:07   65,000 files to import I'm like no you don't they're all there and so I had to wait for like three days for it to convince

01:29:14   Itself that it had all the files. Oh, and then at some point. It was like you don't have enough disk space

01:29:17   I'm like hell. I don't have enough disk space. I hope you know I have plenty of this space

01:29:22   I'm not even like a quarter filled on this terabyte drive

01:29:25   So photos is weird and does weird things and scares me sometimes but in the end

01:29:30   I just let it stew for a long time. It was fine. I still haven't removed my most recent

01:29:35   Backup of my old photos library. So if this thing is lying to me

01:29:39   I still have everything as of like, you know when I got the new iMac but

01:29:42   That was a little bit freaky

01:29:45   And boy copying the photo library in the finder that took so long and was so terrifying

01:29:53   There are so many files involved with that and the finder gives you a little bit of information first of all the finer spends

01:29:58   Like a long time like maybe it was an hour. Maybe it was more than our preparing to copy

01:30:03   Not going to copy it's preparing to copy

01:30:06   It's got to count all the files and I don't know what it's doing and maybe it's pre-flighting to make sure the space is available

01:30:10   It's like I should have just used the CP command just start copying things

01:30:15   What are you like she's our sink for crying out loud, you know?

01:30:17   Because Apple has flags and all these things they can make it copy all the metadata

01:30:20   I'm like no, I have no idea what Apple's doing with the photo library. Let me use the finder to do it

01:30:24   It eventually did work. Remember I'm copying from SSD to SSD here. So it's you know, it's fine

01:30:28   It's far our 800 to internal SSD

01:30:30   It's not as if I'm waiting for a spinning disk to send the heads all over the place seeking all over

01:30:34   Anyway, that was terrifying and it eventually did work

01:30:36   So, yeah so far so good. Oh, no the final thing I didn't put this in here I spent like three days

01:30:44   Fighting with this damn computer. I felt like I was going back in time to OS X

01:30:49   Time machine and spotlight were just not happy time machine seemed happy in the beginning and because it's like oh

01:30:55   You know I named my computer the same as it was before I did migration assistant

01:30:59   It's like I told to use this disk for time machine

01:31:01   It's like do you want me to inherit the backups from the previous thing and I did because like basically that was you know

01:31:06   I had to copy the whole hard drive over there. Yes, please inherit the backup

01:31:09   So I don't lose all my previous versions and so it starts backing up to this thing

01:31:12   and I told you to do that and I noticed that like

01:31:17   Spotlight and Time Machine were just not ever finishing what they're supposed to be doing. Spotlight was always, you know,

01:31:23   seemingly indexing and the console was filling up with tons of like MD worker errors and stuff like that and Time Machine

01:31:29   would never actually complete a backup ever ever ever after several days of this I spent a long time staring at the console and

01:31:35   Googling for things and finding all these weird obscure errors and people were like, oh just nuke your spotlight

01:31:40   store and you know

01:31:41   I did all the things you can imagine doing with MD util like totally

01:31:44   Removing the thing, disabling spotlight, trying to let spotlight go first, trying to let time machine go first.

01:31:49   I don't know what their problem was, but they were totally wedged and neither one of them.

01:31:54   Spotlight indexing were not complete and time machine were not complete.

01:31:56   And that was very frustrating because I really can't basically sign off on the computer as ready for use until time machine is running.

01:32:02   I don't really care that much about spotlight. So I spent many days fighting with that and googling and eventually got the thing to go through.

01:32:09   What the hell was I don't even remember what the problem was.

01:32:12   It's one of those things where it's not like there was no aha moment

01:32:14   I you know if you like Google for all these error messages you find a million hits on Apple's discussion boards of people with the

01:32:20   Same problem sometimes they're benign sometimes people say oh this totally fixed it for me. Nothing

01:32:25   I found help me fix it eventually

01:32:27   I just had to go to the old school

01:32:28   kind of debugging where I'm using like LS OF and stuff to figure out who the hell has these files open and

01:32:33   Are they files that I can either delete or recopy?

01:32:38   one of the solutions involved me deleting my old user account that I had in that machine because

01:32:43   Spotlight isn't just indexing the files as a logged in user

01:32:46   It's indexing the files owned by all the different users at the same time and some of the console errors you're seeing are not actually

01:32:51   From the account you're logged into and like one of the solutions like oh make sure you log into every account update the iCloud

01:32:56   Stuff and I did that it didn't help like boy

01:32:58   It was one of those debugging problems where every solution you find you get excited

01:33:01   This is gonna be the thing to fix it and it doesn't but I did them all but anyway

01:33:04   I deleted my account from there, which took with it a lot of files that apparently of

01:33:09   the various spotlight metadata deeming import things like MDWorker and MDS were choking

01:33:14   on badly and that let it progress and eventually Spotlight indexed and when Spotlight indexed

01:33:19   Time Machine worked.

01:33:21   And it just made me think that there's no way in hell that anybody could have successfully

01:33:25   fixed this if they weren't the type of person who's willing to spend literally three days

01:33:31   just googling and cursing and googling and cursing.

01:33:36   And part of it is probably because like, you know, this is, I've used migration assistant

01:33:40   and it's like an old account that maybe like had a bunch of weird crufty things in it from

01:33:45   a long time ago.

01:33:46   But you know, people are gonna say, yeah, see, you should have just done a clean install.

01:33:50   This is the first time migration assistant has steered me wrong.

01:33:54   And really I just blame either spotlight or time machine or both for just not being more

01:33:57   robust.

01:33:58   Fine.

01:33:59   that you can't import, that are causing MD Worker to crash,

01:34:03   just move on, just power through it.

01:34:06   Then don't index those.

01:34:07   But if, and I don't even understand why Spotlight

01:34:11   and Time Machines seem to wedge each other in this way,

01:34:13   because Time Machines should work without Spotlight

01:34:15   and vice versa, but apparently they did.

01:34:17   So that was a bad sort of first couple of days experience,

01:34:20   but eventually we did get into a steady state

01:34:22   and now I have my UMTeen backups.

01:34:24   So I had to finally expand my backups on my Synology,

01:34:26   which by the way was nice and easy

01:34:28   because I just got to add, you know, they don't have,

01:34:31   it's not like Drobo where you can just add another drive

01:34:32   to the thing, but I just converted from RAID one to RAID five

01:34:36   and so from two disks to three and so got more space

01:34:38   and that all worked out.

01:34:40   - So for the fan noise thing,

01:34:42   going back to that for a second,

01:34:43   'cause I, my iMac is almost inaudible

01:34:47   and Tiff's the same, you know,

01:34:48   so almost inaudible when it's not doing that much

01:34:51   and really under any load except a sustained heavy load,

01:34:55   like if I, you know, open up Handbrake

01:34:58   or if Tiff has a game running, then you will hear the fans.

01:35:01   But at every other time, I don't hear the fans at all.

01:35:03   So I'm curious, now of course,

01:35:05   if you had something like iStat menus installed.

01:35:09   - I did, I installed the thing to see the RPM.

01:35:11   It was like at 1200 RPM, I can hear it.

01:35:13   - Okay, that's 'cause I was gonna say,

01:35:14   mine is idling at 1200.

01:35:16   - It's not loud, it's not a loud fan,

01:35:18   it's just not inaudible, you know what I mean?

01:35:20   - I'm surprised though, in a room that includes a Mac Pro,

01:35:24   'cause one thing we noticed,

01:35:24   Tiff and I went from two Mac Pros to two iMacs,

01:35:28   and when you would turn off the Mac Pro,

01:35:33   leaving the iMac behind, it was clear as day,

01:35:37   like when we had one and one for like a day or two,

01:35:39   the difference was clear as day,

01:35:41   like that the Mac Pro was so,

01:35:44   which we always thought was quiet, relatively speaking,

01:35:47   but it so easily would mask the noise of the iMac.

01:35:51   - Yeah, well my Mac Pro is asleep most of the time.

01:35:53   It does, the closest thing to the iMac is the PS4,

01:35:58   but that's also asleep unless someone's playing it.

01:36:00   But really I can only hear the iMac

01:36:02   when I'm sitting in front of it,

01:36:03   but that's when it annoys me.

01:36:04   Like, what does that sound?

01:36:05   Oh, it's the stupid iMac.

01:36:06   Again, not loud at all, but I just feel like it should,

01:36:09   like the MacBook Air was literally inaudible

01:36:11   when the computer was idle.

01:36:13   And if you could hear it at all,

01:36:14   then it was like Crashplant was grinding

01:36:16   into the background or doing something like that.

01:36:18   And this is close to inaudible, but not.

01:36:21   And so it's not that big of a deal,

01:36:23   but it would be nice if it just,

01:36:25   like they just need to put an even bigger,

01:36:27   lower RPM fan in there.

01:36:28   It's not like you don't have room.

01:36:29   Plenty of space to spread out.

01:36:31   Big, lazy fan blades turning it like 100 RPM, go for it.

01:36:36   - Nope, you can't have it

01:36:37   'cause you just said that you like the thin edge

01:36:39   'cause you see it from the side sometimes.

01:36:40   That's why we can't have nice things, John.

01:36:42   That's why we can't have big, quiet fans.

01:36:43   - Even with the thin edge,

01:36:44   there's enough room for like a Frisbee in there.

01:36:46   It's not like, it doesn't get thin.

01:36:48   This is a big, hunky screen.

01:36:50   Oh yeah, and speaking of that,

01:36:51   So like, her computer was always the one that we had not sleeping, because it was plugged

01:36:56   into AC all the time and I always wanted to have one computer that's awake all the time.

01:36:59   The Synology took over a lot of that role, but her computer was always awake.

01:37:03   And with the iMac, it was weird to see in OS X, I don't know if this is a new development

01:37:07   because I haven't had iMacs for a while, but like with a built-in screen computer, there's

01:37:11   not separate settings for display sleep and computer sleep.

01:37:13   There's one setting that says, "Do you want me to prevent the computer from going to sleep

01:37:18   when the display sleeps?"

01:37:19   And there's one slider that says when should the display go to sleep.

01:37:21   I would like to say display go to sleep 10 minutes, computer go to sleep one hour like

01:37:25   you used to back in the olden days and how I can on my Mac or my Mac Pro rather.

01:37:30   But you can't all you get is the checkbox.

01:37:32   And I need to just look into the plist settings and just change this to the way I want it.

01:37:36   You can also, you can set a hot corner to do immediate display sleep.

01:37:40   Yeah, yeah.

01:37:41   And then you just have to dial to, I know, it's just like I'm used to the sliders the

01:37:45   way they used to be.

01:37:46   I've also noticed some spooky behavior where occasionally,

01:37:48   you leave the computer, no one's touching it,

01:37:50   no one's doing anything, and the display will go off.

01:37:53   And whether it's sleeping or not,

01:37:54   you'll come back a little bit later

01:37:55   and the display will be on.

01:37:56   And I've been sitting in the room when it's happened.

01:37:57   I've been playing Destiny.

01:37:58   I look over and the screen turns on.

01:38:00   I'm like, "Why are you turning on?"

01:38:01   And wake for network access is off.

01:38:03   No weird USB hubs are attached.

01:38:05   The console doesn't say anything about what the thing is.

01:38:07   It's like, "Did you wake up or did the screen?"

01:38:09   And sometimes the screen just won't go,

01:38:11   the interval will go by.

01:38:12   15 minutes will go by and the screen won't go off.

01:38:14   So I've got my eye on it on sleep issues.

01:38:16   Like I don't care 'cause it's basically on

01:38:18   all the time anyway, but I don't know

01:38:20   what's going on over there.

01:38:22   - Whatever it's worth, I know the issue you're talking about.

01:38:24   I've seen that in the past on other computers,

01:38:27   but I have never seen that on either of our iMacs.

01:38:30   So I don't think it's an issue with the iMac.

01:38:34   I think it's an issue with probably some,

01:38:36   maybe it's that weird USB device.

01:38:39   Maybe it's a flaky enclosure.

01:38:41   - That thing is unplugged now,

01:38:43   So that's not a factor anymore.

01:38:46   Maybe it's the firewires?

01:38:47   No, the firewires stuff's powered off.

01:38:49   I don't know.

01:38:49   Anyway, I've got to figure out how to make this thing happen.

01:38:51   I haven't seen it happen too much.

01:38:52   It just happened once or twice.

01:38:53   And I think one morning my wife came down and said,

01:38:55   why was the computer screen on?

01:38:56   So maybe it was on all night.

01:38:58   Anyway, it's behaving now.

01:39:00   It's full of windows.

01:39:01   We'll see if it just-- yeah, it's her computer.

01:39:03   It can't sleep.

01:39:04   It's like when you eat a bunch of chili

01:39:05   and go to bed when you're like 35.

01:39:07   Like your computer has so many windows,

01:39:10   it just can't go to sleep.

01:39:12   My computer, it's her computer.

01:39:14   It doesn't have that many things on it.

01:39:16   - So only 50?

01:39:17   - Yeah, she uses some windows.

01:39:19   Well, there's one other thing with the iMac

01:39:21   that I can't remember.

01:39:23   Oh, this is when it came time to order this.

01:39:26   And I was going through the order configuration thing.

01:39:28   I asked my wife if she wanted, which mouse she wanted,

01:39:32   or if she wanted to try the Magic Trackpad.

01:39:34   And to my surprise, she said she wanted to try

01:39:36   the Magic Trackpad because she already had a mouse

01:39:37   that she liked.

01:39:38   And we got the extended keyboard, which is still in the box

01:39:41   because she likes that keyboard

01:39:42   She's just using her old one so we have an extra now, but anyway she picked the magic trackpad and

01:39:46   Not for me still like as magic as it may be I still use the mouse. I'm just not gonna be a trackpad person

01:39:53   So far it remains to be seen if she will make the transition

01:39:58   She's been trying it and messing around with it, but I think if I look over there now

01:40:03   I think the mouse is still next to the keyboard

01:40:05   So I think she like pulls the the magic trackpad down and uses it

01:40:08   And I don't know I could tell when she uses it cuz I do that talk talk talk of the of the

01:40:13   Matter-of-track probably sounds different than the mouse, but anyway. There's one in the house now and

01:40:18   She was a curious enough to try it, but I don't know if it'll stick

01:40:21   [BEEP]