ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Hi, John.

00:00:02 ◼   ► [SIGHS]

00:00:03 ◼   ► [LAUGHTER]

00:00:05 ◼   ► [BEEPING]

00:00:07 ◼   ► It's like WWDC all over again.

00:00:10 ◼   ► Although, at least WWDC was over quickly,

00:00:12 ◼   ► because it's like, well, Bob, it's clear I didn't get tickets

00:00:13 ◼   ► here.

00:00:14 ◼   ► It's just clear these people don't

00:00:15 ◼   ► know how to make websites that can withstand any kind of load.

00:00:19 ◼   ► We have many devices working on it.

00:00:21 ◼   ► Tina actually did get tickets for the--

00:00:25 ◼   ► not the Thursday opening night, but the Friday one.

00:00:27 ◼   ► But she accidentally bought 3D.

00:00:29 ◼   ► And that's not acceptable because of motion sickness?

00:00:31 ◼   ► - No, it's not acceptable because 3D is terrible.

00:00:34 ◼   ► - Oh, I agree, but I wasn't sure.

00:00:36 ◼   ► I figured desperation would make it acceptable,

00:00:39 ◼   ► but apparently not.

00:00:40 ◼   ► - I'm gonna watch it.

00:00:41 ◼   ► I mean, if it's all I can get, it's all I can get,

00:00:43 ◼   ► but ugh, well, that's just really...

00:00:45 ◼   ► I have many times I got to the stage

00:00:48 ◼   ► where you're picking your seats to reserve.

00:00:50 ◼   ► Many, many times I got to that step.

00:00:52 ◼   ► - Is the theater near you like an Alamo Drafthouse

00:00:55 ◼   ► in some fancy and highfalutin, or is it--

00:00:57 ◼   ► - No, none of these are fancy.

00:00:58 ◼   ► They're all just whatever.

00:00:59 ◼   ► I mean, the fanciest one is the one

00:01:01 ◼   ► we actually have tickets for.

00:01:02 ◼   ► It's reserved seating, and it's the big reclining seats

00:01:04 ◼   ► and everything like that.

00:01:05 ◼   ► But 3D, come on.

00:01:09 ◼   ► So I may be distracted during this episode

00:01:11 ◼   ► as I occasionally reload the 5,000 tabs

00:01:14 ◼   ► that I have preconfigured to exactly the page

00:01:17 ◼   ► where you can buy tickets, all of which

00:01:19 ◼   ► are just returning 503 gateway errors

00:01:23 ◼   ► or just spinning forever, because that's great.

00:01:25 ◼   ► Well, I mean, I don't think it's a problem,

00:01:26 ◼   ► because I'm not at all distracted by the New York football Giants that are currently acting

00:01:31 ◼   ► like the Giants. No one cares about football, Casey. This is Star Wars. Me. Football games

00:01:37 ◼   ► happen every year. People get concussions. Yeah. They have terrible brain injury that

00:01:42 ◼   ► destroys their entire family. Also true. And it happens, what, 16 times every year. Yep.

00:01:49 ◼   ► But to put things in perspective with regard to my priorities, Aaron and I were just having

00:01:55 ◼   ► a very casual debate, which we didn't even conclude

00:01:58 ◼   ► as to whether or not we would go see this movie

00:02:00 ◼   ► in the theaters.

00:02:01 ◼   ► - You should stay away and let other people get the tickets.

00:02:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:02:05 ◼   ► - I love, John, that you're able to resist

00:02:10 ◼   ► every Apple product on day one,

00:02:12 ◼   ► every new release of anything.

00:02:14 ◼   ► Like, you're able to say, "You know what?

00:02:16 ◼   ► "I'm gonna let everybody else go try those things first

00:02:18 ◼   ► "and tell me what's wrong so I know

00:02:19 ◼   ► "whether to actually do it myself."

00:02:21 ◼   ► But with this, you're going right in.

00:02:23 ◼   ► - It's Star Wars.

00:02:24 ◼   ► And it's also a slightly smaller investment than a multi-thousand dollar Mac

00:02:29 ◼   ► I don't know man your dreams and hopes and wants and desires

00:02:33 ◼   ► They're pretty big investment that you're putting on this movie the main investment that I'm protecting with this whole thing is the investment

00:02:39 ◼   ► I have put into avoiding Star Wars related spoilers

00:02:42 ◼   ► That is a serious investment that can be destroyed very easily when the rest of the world has seen the movie and you haven't

00:02:46 ◼   ► All right, so I'm sorry. It wasn't completely successful, but hopefully it's successful enough

00:02:53 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I'm sure I will see it in 2d eventually. I just really don't like 3d

00:02:57 ◼   ► Alright, so you want to do some follow-up?

00:03:00 ◼   ► Chip works has some thoughts on the 2a9s. I don't know if John you wanted to talk about this a little bit

00:03:07 ◼   ► Yeah, I put this in there, and I was all excited

00:03:10 ◼   ► This is going to be a really detailed breakdown of what is different about the chips with little microscopic views

00:03:14 ◼   ► And there was a little bit of that

00:03:15 ◼   ► But there's two problems with it one a lot of it the stuff in it is over my head because they're using lingo that they

00:03:20 ◼   ► Assume everybody knows and I don't know

00:03:22 ◼   ► Or I have a vague idea of what it means, but I don't understand the implications like you know one of the chips is weak

00:03:28 ◼   ► En Masse

00:03:29 ◼   ► You know I can have vague memories of what that is, but I don't understand what the implications are anyway

00:03:33 ◼   ► I suppose I could look it up and the other one is that there's a lot of information about all the other components that I

00:03:38 ◼   ► Don't care about who do they use for the display controller?

00:03:41 ◼   ► What chip do they use for the power?

00:03:42 ◼   ► Regulating thing or the battery thing or you know like all sorts of other stuff that I'm not interested in

00:03:47 ◼   ► but we'll put a link in the show it's because

00:03:50 ◼   ► Chipworks is the only place I know that is taking these things apart and like slicing the chips open and putting them under

00:03:56 ◼   ► microscopes and stuff like that, so

00:03:58 ◼   ► No real news there, but for people who understand more about this than I do

00:04:02 ◼   ► Maybe they can glean something from it

00:04:04 ◼   ► excellent and

00:04:06 ◼   ► Speaking of the a9s consumer reports weighed in about them. That's a more

00:04:10 ◼   ► Yeah, that's more reasonable consumer focus test consumer reports. It's out of spotty history with a technology and everything really like

00:04:17 ◼   ► Consumer reports I always wonder about because the more I know about a topic the more I think consumer reports

00:04:23 ◼   ► selections are just

00:04:25 ◼   ► Don't make any sense. And so that makes me suspect like maybe their dishwasher recommendations also don't make any sense

00:04:31 ◼   ► I don't know anything about dishwasher

00:04:32 ◼   ► But every time I know something about it like their car reviews like the cars they pick they recommend for you to get I guess

00:04:37 ◼   ► It's really they just have different criteria than I do

00:04:40 ◼   ► Like the way they pick cars is those are not the things that are important to them are not the same things that are important

00:04:45 ◼   ► to me and that's true in a lot of things if you look at car and driver for example and

00:04:48 ◼   ► they're always emphasizing like performance and handling and stuff like that and it's

00:04:53 ◼   ► like maybe that's not what's important to you and you should read consent reports anyway

00:04:55 ◼   ► you hate performance well i don't but i have anyway so their review hit their test of the

00:05:06 ◼   ► batteries is more or less what i was looking for like they're trying to do real world testing

00:05:11 ◼   ► I think their testing was pretty timid.

00:05:13 ◼   ► It's similar to the battery testing I did

00:05:16 ◼   ► when I was doing Mavericks.

00:05:17 ◼   ► It's very, like, I would call it light usage.

00:05:19 ◼   ► Maybe they're calling it medium usage,

00:05:20 ◼   ► or they just loaded a bunch of web pages

00:05:21 ◼   ► over and over again.

00:05:22 ◼   ► But they did do a bunch of fairly standard things,

00:05:27 ◼   ► I think probably in a way that is less stressful

00:05:30 ◼   ► than someone actually using the phone.

00:05:32 ◼   ► They also monitored the temperature

00:05:34 ◼   ► of both of the phones during this,

00:05:35 ◼   ► which I thought was a good idea,

00:05:36 ◼   ► because hey, maybe one of them, you know,

00:05:37 ◼   ► maybe one of them is hotter than the other.

00:05:40 ◼   ► and they didn't find any appreciable differences.

00:05:42 ◼   ► So they basically said 1 to 2% differences in their tests,

00:05:44 ◼   ► which they consider not an appreciable difference

00:05:46 ◼   ► and like within the margin of error.

00:05:48 ◼   ► So there you go.

00:05:50 ◼   ► The benchmark testing may have showed a 20 or 30%,

00:05:53 ◼   ► but the Consumer Reports attempt to simulate real-world

00:05:56 ◼   ► usage, which they detail.

00:05:56 ◼   ► You should follow the link, we'll put in the notes.

00:05:59 ◼   ► They detail what they did, like, oh,

00:06:00 ◼   ► we loaded a webpage repeatedly for this amount of time,

00:06:02 ◼   ► or we ran this thing for this amount of time.

00:06:04 ◼   ► You can see what they did and see if that is representative

00:06:06 ◼   ► of how you use your phone,

00:06:07 ◼   ► and then you'll know what the difference is.

00:06:09 ◼   ► But anyway, Consumer Reports loves a good story about Apple phones being broken in some

00:06:12 ◼   ► way, so if they are not jumping on this and saying that one of the A9s is much, much worse

00:06:18 ◼   ► than the other, it's a pretty good bet that they're about the same.

00:06:22 ◼   ► Excellent.

00:06:23 ◼   ► All right, and somebody wrote in with regard to Fusion drives.

00:06:26 ◼   ► "Jopter Horse."

00:06:27 ◼   ► You're not going to say that name?

00:06:28 ◼   ► It's exciting.

00:06:29 ◼   ► Nope.

00:06:30 ◼   ► So this is about the Fusion drive size.

00:06:32 ◼   ► We complain that they dropped the flash portion of the Fusion drive in the new iMacs down

00:06:36 ◼   ► to 24 gigs from 128 gigs, but apparently if you get the two or three gigabyte

00:06:41 ◼   ► fusion drive you do get the old 128 gigabytes of SSD. Two or three terabyte.

00:06:45 ◼   ► Terabyte, yes. Only the one terabyte fusion drive option has a 24 gig one, so

00:06:50 ◼   ► that's some good news in that front, I suppose. All right, and Toby wrote in and

00:06:56 ◼   ► had an interesting point. They said, "When I hear the merits of the Magic Trackpad

00:07:03 ◼   ► discussed, it's usually in comparison to using a mouse, but I find it really comes

00:07:06 ◼   ► into its own in combination with a mouse. And we've heard this from a few other people. I heard this

00:07:11 ◼   ► from Mike Hurley a year ago now, I think at least, but I'd forgotten about it. I'm glad Toby said

00:07:18 ◼   ► something. I have never run both a Magic Trackpad and a mouse. I love my Magic Mouse, even though

00:07:26 ◼   ► it's ergonomically atrocious, but I love the functionality it provides for me. I was lamenting

00:07:32 ◼   ► on Twitter, I don't know, yesterday, the day before, or maybe it was on here actually,

00:07:36 ◼   ► on this podcast somewhere I was lamenting that I think my mousing days may be over shortly

00:07:41 ◼   ► because I think Force Touch will eventually catch on to the point that I'm going to be

00:07:45 ◼   ► kind of grumbly about not having it on the Magic Mouse. And I've been thinking a lot

00:07:48 ◼   ► about maybe I should just get one of these stupid Magic track pads and just embrace the

00:07:52 ◼   ► future in the same way that maybe my next car should just get a stupid dual clutch gearbox

00:07:57 ◼   ► and embrace the future. But neither is happening right now.

00:07:59 ◼   ► now. The future is no gearbox. Oh, God. You're already getting smug. You're turning into

00:08:03 ◼   ► one of those smug Tesla owners. You're not even an owner yet. This is going to be a long

00:08:08 ◼   ► year or so when you first get that car. It's not going to be this year. Oh, thank God.

00:08:12 ◼   ► All right. At least I have a few more months to raise my defenses and get prepared for

00:08:19 ◼   ► this awfulness. Anyway. We can talk about Mac Pros some more if you want, if that's

00:08:23 ◼   ► better. Oh, God. Please stop. Although I was thinking earlier today actually how ridiculous

00:08:27 ◼   ► it is. You two fawned over this stupid trash can for like 15 episodes of ATP and Jon never

00:08:33 ◼   ► bought one and Marco you kicked it to the curb within like six months.

00:08:38 ◼   ► I suspect that my next computer will probably be a Mac Pro again but you know because the

00:08:45 ◼   ► difference now between like like there was a good discussion about this with Serenity

00:08:48 ◼   ► and Jon on this last week's episode of the talk show about how like the Mac Pro right

00:08:53 ◼   ► now is kind of like the best of almost nothing except for multi-core performance and things

00:09:00 ◼   ► that use that second GPU somehow, which is basically only OpenCL stuff that can even

00:09:05 ◼   ► use it. So there's a small number of things that are better on it, but there's a whole

00:09:12 ◼   ► lot about it that the iMac beats it at, including for my purposes, including the screen quality

00:09:20 ◼   ► for one, the fact that there is no good way to get 5K or large Retina on the Mac Pro.

00:09:28 ◼   ► And so if there's a new Mac Pro in, I mean, there's probably going to be one in like four

00:09:32 ◼   ► or five months, but I probably won't get that one, but I would probably get the next one.

00:09:38 ◼   ► Wait, so you're saying if there's a Mac Pro that is released in the next year or so that

00:09:44 ◼   ► supports Retina, you're not going to insta-buy it?

00:09:47 ◼   ► I'm not planning on it.

00:09:48 ◼   ► I mean, you know with me, I can never really guarantee that as much as you guys.

00:09:52 ◼   ► This is what I sounded like when I was like, "Oh no, I'm totally not getting an Apple

00:09:55 ◼   ► Watch, isn't it?"

00:09:56 ◼   ► Or a BMW or an iPhone or...

00:09:59 ◼   ► If they don't have a retina screen, you're not going to get it.

00:10:01 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:10:02 ◼   ► You're not going to give up the retina screen.

00:10:03 ◼   ► So it doesn't matter if a Mac Pro is introduced.

00:10:05 ◼   ► All we should be watching for is an external 5K screen release, because they're not going

00:10:10 ◼   ► to release the screen unless something can drive it.

00:10:12 ◼   ► Exactly.

00:10:13 ◼   ► And so I would like their, like before I really do an update, I would like for their, first

00:10:18 ◼   ► First of all, to be a good performance increase on the CPU side, I think whatever they update

00:10:23 ◼   ► to next, I forget what core they're up to in the Xeon line, and I might even, you know,

00:10:27 ◼   ► depending on, if it comes soon, I'll probably skip it because I'm still very happy with

00:10:31 ◼   ► my iMac, but I would like more parallel CPU power eventually, 'cause I really do max it

00:10:39 ◼   ► out like crazy when doing stuff to my new photos on my new camera, 'cause they're just

00:10:42 ◼   ► but that's the only time I really destroy the CPUs.

00:10:47 ◼   ► So I can wait.

00:10:48 ◼   ► Aren't you happy you asked?

00:10:49 ◼   ► - I've been watching the football game

00:10:51 ◼   ► for the last 10 minutes, were you talking?

00:10:53 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:10:55 ◼   ► - Awesome.

00:10:55 ◼   ► So anyway, while I'm talking and you're not listening,

00:10:59 ◼   ► let's do an ad read.

00:11:00 ◼   ► - Well, no, no, no, no, no,

00:11:01 ◼   ► we never finished the talk about the track pad.

00:11:03 ◼   ► That's where all this started.

00:11:04 ◼   ► That was Genesis.

00:11:05 ◼   ► - Right.

00:11:06 ◼   ► So, track pads.

00:11:07 ◼   ► - Yeah, so I have nothing else to add about this,

00:11:09 ◼   ► but somebody had some other notes in the show notes about it

00:11:11 ◼   ► and it wasn't me.

00:11:12 ◼   ► I'm assuming it was John who was also not paying attention because he's trying to buy Star Wars tickets again.

00:11:17 ◼   ► That's one of those days. No, I'm you know, I thought you had it handled. Yeah

00:11:22 ◼   ► My question on this is do any of you work this way?

00:11:29 ◼   ► Have you have you worked this way like mouse and trackpad at the same time?

00:11:32 ◼   ► You know, I don't generally however because I the only trackpad I have is on my you know

00:11:37 ◼   ► Physically in the computer attached the computer

00:11:39 ◼   ► But I did notice a couple times, and I think it was getting a definition of a word the other day.

00:11:45 ◼   ► I was at work, and I'm on a client's site now, so I only have my onboard monitor.

00:11:53 ◼   ► I'm not using my clamshell with two identical externals like I was at our office.

00:11:58 ◼   ► So anyway, so I had my keyboard open, and you know, obviously the trackpad's right there.

00:12:02 ◼   ► And I was trying to get a definition of a word, and I force-touched in order to get the definition,

00:12:07 ◼   ► Rather than like right-clicking and going to define or what or what have you and it took me aback because I didn't even really think

00:12:13 ◼   ► Twice about it. I just reached for the trackpad and did it with my left hand. I was like wait a second

00:12:16 ◼   ► That was weird and it was kind of nice, but I don't know I I can't fathom

00:12:23 ◼   ► getting an external

00:12:25 ◼   ► magic trackpad in

00:12:28 ◼   ► Addition to a magic Mouse in no small part because they are damned expensive

00:12:33 ◼   ► It is really stunningly expensive. What are they $130? I believe why is everyone saying that's super expensive though?

00:12:38 ◼   ► I've seen a lot of complaints about the magic trap being bad

00:12:41 ◼   ► We didn't mention in the last show

00:12:42 ◼   ► But I've seen a lot of people saying $130 to the trackpad that seems outrageous now

00:12:46 ◼   ► Obviously, it's more than my like $19 plastic Logitech mouse from 1995 that I've been using forever

00:12:52 ◼   ► But I wouldn't flinch it spending $100 on a really good mouse. So why is it that this is a big deal at 100?

00:13:00 ◼   ► is it because

00:13:01 ◼   ► You'd see it as just a flat thing that doesn't move and it seems like how am I paying $130 for a flat thing?

00:13:07 ◼   ► It doesn't move. I mean, it's no no

00:13:09 ◼   ► It's it's because of what you just said because I'm used to paying like $20 for a mouse my magic mouse that I bought way back

00:13:15 ◼   ► When was probably what $60?

00:13:17 ◼   ► I think it was something like $70 the original magic mouse and I thought that was silly expensive

00:13:22 ◼   ► I don't know. I think it just seems like a lot of damn money

00:13:27 ◼   ► $130 for a mouse for a freaking mouse well for a trackpad

00:13:31 ◼   ► But still so you know that the fact is high-end mice have always cost in the $100 range

00:13:38 ◼   ► Right like that like the one the logitech MX master that that's a hundred bucks isn't it I?

00:13:43 ◼   ► Don't recall, but I do remember vividly

00:13:46 ◼   ► Looking at it when Mike had said that it does a lot of the stuff that I do with swipes on the magic Mouse and thinking

00:13:51 ◼   ► To myself man. I really would love something that doesn't look like a piece of sushi

00:13:55 ◼   ► And I looked at it and I was gonna buy it and then I saw whatever the price was apparently between

00:14:00 ◼   ► 70 and $100 spending on where you buy it in and I remember looking at it and thinking that's way too much damn money for

00:14:06 ◼   ► An M for a mouse no way

00:14:08 ◼   ► Like I don't understand why people think that's a lot of money with the razor gaming mice are probably similarly priced like this

00:14:13 ◼   ► Brings me a good point to pull this thing that's been in the post show section for god knows how long

00:14:17 ◼   ► The Xbox elite controller which you should all follow the link to right now

00:14:21 ◼   ► You guys see it up on the top for some reason in the post show thing

00:14:24 ◼   ► This makes a lot of sense to me.

00:14:28 ◼   ► This is an Xbox controller. I believe it's $150.

00:14:32 ◼   ► It more or less looks like the regular Xbox controller, but

00:14:36 ◼   ► they put more money into it. It's sturdier, it's more customizable, it has higher quality materials,

00:14:40 ◼   ► it has better tolerances. I'm sure it feels better to use.

00:14:44 ◼   ► It's also got some extra weird triggers on the bottom so you can use different button

00:14:48 ◼   ► pressing arrangements. It's like a premium controller. For a controller

00:14:52 ◼   ► like a mouse and like a keyboard is something that when you're using the thing your hands are on almost all the time and for a

00:14:58 ◼   ► controller pretty much all the time and

00:15:00 ◼   ► they try to make them as sturdy as they can make them and keep them as cheap as possible to

00:15:05 ◼   ► Bundle them in with the game consoles and then they usually like maybe 40 bucks to 60 bucks to buy

00:15:10 ◼   ► Another one which is kind of expensive these things do have Bluetooth. They do have a lot of buttons

00:15:14 ◼   ► sometimes they have lights and on them and microphones and all sorts of other stuff and

00:15:19 ◼   ► I'm willing to buy a fancier version of basically every controller that I have by all means

00:15:25 ◼   ► Double the price of the controller and put 25% more

00:15:29 ◼   ► Value of parts into it. So obviously your margins to go up for the expensive controller

00:15:33 ◼   ► But I'm getting 25% better like to take that money and put it towards because you have the same buttons as everything else

00:15:38 ◼   ► This one has the extra things on the bottom, but put it towards making the buttons

00:15:41 ◼   ► Sturdier or feel better or improving the materials or make them not wear out as much or not using

00:15:47 ◼   ► Hardier bushings or surface, you know things that rub together

00:15:50 ◼   ► You know whatever they're gonna do to it make it more expensive

00:15:55 ◼   ► And I think that is an incredibly smart purchase the same reason you should buy a really good expensive chair

00:15:59 ◼   ► The best one you can find keyboard mouse all the stuff if you're gonna sit in it all day and touch it all day with

00:16:05 ◼   ► Your hands that's where you should spend your money so

00:16:08 ◼   ► Now the magic track bed isn't quite the same thing because really like it doesn't do anything it just sits there right

00:16:15 ◼   ► So maybe 130 is too much for that because people feel like it is not

00:16:18 ◼   ► That much better than the old magic trackpad in that again. It's just a little surface

00:16:24 ◼   ► It's a little bit bigger has slightly nicer materials it supports force touch

00:16:27 ◼   ► whatever but at the bottom line all people see is like a flat slab that lays on the ground that you put your finger on but

00:16:34 ◼   ► It doesn't seem that crazy to me now

00:16:36 ◼   ► Maybe maybe it's overpriced in that there's no lower price model for this for the in the case of the Xbox Elite controller or fancy keyboards

00:16:42 ◼   ► or fancy chairs, you can get less expensive ones

00:16:44 ◼   ► that are still pretty good.

00:16:45 ◼   ► Whereas the Apple external desktop trackpad

00:16:48 ◼   ► that's not $130 for people who want a trackpad

00:16:51 ◼   ► but really don't want to spend $130 on one

00:16:53 ◼   ► because they're on a budget.

00:16:54 ◼   ► That's where I can see the criticism.

00:16:56 ◼   ► But this specific product saying,

00:16:58 ◼   ► "This isn't worth $130 because Apple's margins

00:17:01 ◼   ► "must be crazy," doesn't really bother me that much.

00:17:04 ◼   ► - It's not that it's not worth $130.

00:17:07 ◼   ► It's just, I feel like whatever my barrier

00:17:11 ◼   ► for a mouse or mouse-like device is,

00:17:15 ◼   ► this is on the other side of that barrier.

00:17:17 ◼   ► And what you just said makes perfect sense to me.

00:17:21 ◼   ► I'm touching this constantly.

00:17:22 ◼   ► This is how I'm making my living,

00:17:25 ◼   ► is by using a mouse and a keyboard

00:17:27 ◼   ► and sitting on a chair and so on.

00:17:29 ◼   ► All of that makes perfect sense, you're absolutely right.

00:17:31 ◼   ► But I don't know, I look at these prices

00:17:32 ◼   ► and as soon as I get much past like 60, $70,

00:17:35 ◼   ► I just feel like it's just too damn much.

00:17:38 ◼   ► The rent is just too damn high.

00:17:40 ◼   ► But how often do you buy new input devices?

00:17:43 ◼   ► I mean, people can justify spending $100 for an extra

00:17:48 ◼   ► few gigs of memory on their iPhone

00:17:52 ◼   ► with barely even thinking about it often.

00:17:54 ◼   ► But then an input device that you probably buy

00:17:58 ◼   ► once every five years at most,

00:18:01 ◼   ► how often do people buy these things new by themselves?

00:18:05 ◼   ► I think it's pretty rare.

00:18:07 ◼   ► And so, you know, this is a high-end premium device.

00:18:10 ◼   ► This is not a mass market device.

00:18:11 ◼   ► Most people are not buying desktops to begin with.

00:18:14 ◼   ► Those who are buying desktops are generally gonna be using

00:18:17 ◼   ► whatever comes with it, and by default,

00:18:18 ◼   ► it comes with the mouse.

00:18:19 ◼   ► And those who are gonna be willing to pay extra

00:18:22 ◼   ► for this premium and trackpad thing,

00:18:25 ◼   ► like that's kind of an upscale premium thing in that market.

00:18:29 ◼   ► I don't think it's a high-volume product.

00:18:32 ◼   ► I don't think Apple probably makes

00:18:33 ◼   ► or sells a whole ton of them.

00:18:34 ◼   ► I'm honestly surprised they updated it at all.

00:18:37 ◼   ► As I mentioned like last show, I'm surprised that the desktop input device has got any

00:18:41 ◼   ► attention from Apple given how relatively unimportant they are in Apple's overall market.

00:18:47 ◼   ► But I don't think it's that ridiculous.

00:18:49 ◼   ► I mean, a premium mechanical keyboard is going to cost you between $100 and $200 usually.

00:18:55 ◼   ► I don't think it's that crazy to have this trackpad from Apple, which is a premium brand

00:19:00 ◼   ► now, it's a fashion brand.

00:19:01 ◼   ► I don't think it's that ridiculous to have this coming from them doing things that no

00:19:05 ◼   ► what the trackpad can do, at least on a Mac,

00:19:09 ◼   ► possibly anywhere, offering that for $130

00:19:12 ◼   ► that somebody's gonna buy once every five years.

00:19:13 ◼   ► That doesn't seem crazy to me at all.

00:19:15 ◼   ► - So a couple thoughts about this.

00:19:16 ◼   ► First of all, I don't know when I bought this Magic Mouse,

00:19:20 ◼   ► but I can assure you it was shortly after

00:19:21 ◼   ► it was initially released, and it's the same damn one

00:19:23 ◼   ► I've been using for like easily five years.

00:19:26 ◼   ► So there's that.

00:19:27 ◼   ► But secondly, you're both trying to use logic

00:19:32 ◼   ► to fight with my emotions and you're right.

00:19:36 ◼   ► I mean, you're absolutely right.

00:19:38 ◼   ► Everything you both said, absolutely right.

00:19:39 ◼   ► But all I can tell you is I look at these price tags

00:19:41 ◼   ► and I'm like, holy God, that's just,

00:19:43 ◼   ► it's too much money, dammit.

00:19:44 ◼   ► And it's just because it's what I feel.

00:19:49 ◼   ► It's the same reason that I look at a piece of software

00:19:51 ◼   ► on the App Store and if it's north of five bucks,

00:19:53 ◼   ► I think, whoa, whoa, whoa, is this something I really want?

00:19:56 ◼   ► And I shouldn't think that way.

00:19:57 ◼   ► - Oh, please, please don't get into this.

00:19:58 ◼   ► - No, I know.

00:19:59 ◼   ► I'm not saying that because I'm proud of this.

00:20:01 ◼   ► I'm not saying that because I think it's the right approach.

00:20:03 ◼   ► I'm just saying that's how I feel.

00:20:04 ◼   ► And then I remind myself, oh my God,

00:20:06 ◼   ► this is like $6 or $7, and it's gonna give me

00:20:09 ◼   ► plenty of enjoyment for a long time.

00:20:11 ◼   ► Like, when Tweetbot whatever came out,

00:20:14 ◼   ► and it was what, five bucks for Tweetbot 2?

00:20:17 ◼   ► - Four and, yes, five bucks.

00:20:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, so for a split second, I was like,

00:20:21 ◼   ► wow, that's, I mean, not that I wouldn't do it,

00:20:22 ◼   ► but I was like, Jesus, no it's not, you idiot.

00:20:24 ◼   ► You use that app constantly, every single day.

00:20:26 ◼   ► What are you doing even thinking

00:20:28 ◼   ► that $5 is too much money?

00:20:29 ◼   ► But that's logic talking to the emotional side of my brain,

00:20:32 ◼   ► which initially was like, wow, $5 for an app, really?

00:20:36 ◼   ► And I'm wrong, I'm not arguing that I'm right,

00:20:38 ◼   ► I'm not saying I'm right, I'm wrong.

00:20:40 ◼   ► But it's that gut reaction.

00:20:42 ◼   ► When I see $130 or anything north of 80 bucks

00:20:45 ◼   ► for a pointing device, I'm just like,

00:20:47 ◼   ► wow, that's a lot of money.

00:20:50 ◼   ► - So on the other side of this,

00:20:51 ◼   ► the other reason this is in here, like I said,

00:20:53 ◼   ► is setting aside the price of the trackpad,

00:20:55 ◼   ► is that the concept of people who either have become accustomed to or were brought up in

00:21:01 ◼   ► the age of trackpads and mice and keyboards adopting a desktop computer usage pattern

00:21:11 ◼   ► that involves them all.

00:21:12 ◼   ► So in the same way that I grew up with a mouse, my way of using computers was alien to the

00:21:18 ◼   ► people who were teenagers or adults when I was first getting my Mac.

00:21:23 ◼   ► Their way of using computers was the keyboard.

00:21:25 ◼   ► You sit in front of the keyboard and that's how you use a computer.

00:21:28 ◼   ► Keyboard keyboard, there is nothing else.

00:21:29 ◼   ► I was always from day one of the Mac, mouse and keyboard.

00:21:36 ◼   ► Sometimes just the mouse, sometimes just the keyboard, but very often both at once.

00:21:39 ◼   ► Command clicking to clean up icons on the desktop, shift clicking, option clicking,

00:21:44 ◼   ► the whole nine yards.

00:21:45 ◼   ► Clicking, typing, clicking, typing, switching back and forth between them, doing them both

00:21:48 ◼   ► simultaneously, using shortcut keys and graphics programs while you're drawing with the mouse

00:21:53 ◼   ► and switching tools with the keyboard.

00:21:54 ◼   ► All those things are second nature to me because that's how I was brought up.

00:21:58 ◼   ► Now that we have trackpads, especially on the desktop, I can imagine there being people

00:22:02 ◼   ► who get into a groove of one hand on the mouse, one hand on the keyboard, or trackpad, where

00:22:09 ◼   ► you're mousing around and, you know, Toby wrote in to say, the two things that he uses

00:22:13 ◼   ► a trackpad for while also using the mouse is swiping between spaces and swiping between

00:22:17 ◼   ► launchpad pages.

00:22:18 ◼   ► Why bother?

00:22:19 ◼   ► Why don't you just click on the little things that take you to the next launchpad?

00:22:22 ◼   ► It's faster and more natural to do it the other way.

00:22:23 ◼   ► What is your other hand doing anyway? It's sort of it's not like being ambidextrous. It's just like

00:22:27 ◼   ► Accepting that there are a bunch of places that you can give him to input to your computer and not saying well

00:22:32 ◼   ► I can only be using one of those at once or I can only be using two of those at once because one of them

00:22:36 ◼   ► Didn't exist when I was growing up

00:22:38 ◼   ► You know and I feel like if I I'm almost makes me want to take down my magic trackpad because I have one too

00:22:42 ◼   ► Like I said, I got it for OS 10 review so I could do all the gestures

00:22:45 ◼   ► To try to find a place for it to see if I get integrated into my life

00:22:49 ◼   ► Maybe you know can't teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe it's too late for me

00:22:52 ◼   ► But I like the idea of younger or more flexible people using all forms of input simultaneously

00:22:59 ◼   ► Without being constrained by like well because computers because desktop computers didn't used to have a trackpad

00:23:04 ◼   ► Therefore there's no place for a trackpad in my computing life

00:23:08 ◼   ► So not that I'm gonna run out and buy one of these trackpads

00:23:11 ◼   ► But I am kind of fascinated by that idea and I may I may try bringing my thing down from the shelf and trying

00:23:16 ◼   ► To find a place for it on my keyboards right here. I

00:23:18 ◼   ► I love that both of you always get up my butt about how I buy everything that Apple makes and I'm always buying everything.

00:23:24 ◼   ► Meanwhile, I'm the only one here not even tempted a little bit by the trackpad because I just know I wouldn't use it.

00:23:30 ◼   ► We'll see what actually happens.

00:23:32 ◼   ► There's the talking about it and there's the buying and the buying is you just bought a new iMac and you bought a Mac Pro and you bought a new iPhone.

00:23:39 ◼   ► And so you're ahead on the actual buying.

00:23:41 ◼   ► I never bought the last trackpad. That's been around for years.

00:23:43 ◼   ► Well, the only reason I bought it was I bought it used on eBay.

00:23:46 ◼   ► The only reason I bought it was I had to for OS X reviews because I did the trackpad on my ancient non-unibody

00:23:50 ◼   ► Mac does not do the gestures one that you remember when they introduced the gestures and everything I couldn't actually do them

00:23:55 ◼   ► I didn't have any I didn't have review hardware from Apple, and I didn't have anything else so I had to eBay a magic trackpad

00:23:59 ◼   ► I can't believe you but trackpad used. Yeah, I can't get over that either. I thought the exact same thing

00:24:04 ◼   ► It was in very good condition. It did not smell like smoke

00:24:06 ◼   ► But did you like and I cleaned it after I got it? Yeah?

00:24:11 ◼   ► I don't even want to think about the cleaning procedure you put that poor trackpad through.

00:24:16 ◼   ► Man's assumption, right?

00:24:17 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:24:18 ◼   ► It's a miracle that that thing worked after you surely dismantled it in order to clean

00:24:22 ◼   ► the insides that you would never have ever touched.

00:24:25 ◼   ► Is it man's assumption or man's conjecture?

00:24:27 ◼   ► Now I'm feeling doubtful.

00:24:28 ◼   ► Neither one of you knows because you're useless.

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00:26:38 ◼   ► - Do you wanna talk more about this new iMac?

00:26:40 ◼   ► - Well, I put this last thing in here

00:26:42 ◼   ► 'cause it was supposed to be for last week.

00:26:43 ◼   ► Maybe it's follow-up, but I don't know,

00:26:44 ◼   ► it's more of the same topic.

00:26:46 ◼   ► I just, and a lot of other people pointed this out,

00:26:49 ◼   ► but I thought it was worth,

00:26:50 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:26:51 ◼   ► worth hammering them one more time in the 5,400 RPM drive.

00:26:54 ◼   ► So Apple put up a website at apple.com/imac/then-and-now

00:26:59 ◼   ► that says, "Hey, let's compare the original iMac,

00:27:02 ◼   ► that iconic computer from yesteryear with the new one just to see how far we've come.

00:27:06 ◼   ► And they go like, oh, 62,000 times faster graphics at 14 million more pixels, 1,000

00:27:13 ◼   ► times more RAM, 750 times more storage, 366 times more processing power.

00:27:19 ◼   ► But I'm pretty sure the hard drive in the original iMac was also 5,400 RPM.

00:27:23 ◼   ► So I would like the last number that scrolls by on this little web page to be 1x more speed

00:27:29 ◼   ► on the spindle.

00:27:31 ◼   ► And a couple of people pointed me to that thing, it was like other world computing articles

00:27:34 ◼   ► and saying, "Oh, it's not, even though the RPM is the same, the storage density is so

00:27:37 ◼   ► massively increased that the bandwidth is higher."

00:27:39 ◼   ► I agree with that.

00:27:40 ◼   ► Like I said last show, if you come from a spinning disk and you get another spinning

00:27:45 ◼   ► disk computer, this spinning disk will be faster than your old spinning disk.

00:27:47 ◼   ► This is how hard drive technology gets better, right?

00:27:50 ◼   ► Setting aside the storage density, which is going to give you higher throughput for how

00:27:54 ◼   ► many megabytes a second can you pull off the disk, I'm sure the seek times are potentially

00:27:58 ◼   ► better as well, or lots of things about a modern hard drive are better than the big

00:28:02 ◼   ► clunker that was in the original iMac.

00:28:04 ◼   ► But the reason I put this in there is because this is the meta-argument about the 16 gigabytes

00:28:11 ◼   ► of memory in the iPhone and how much RAM Apple used to put in the computers.

00:28:14 ◼   ► It's not so much the absolute number that galls the technology enthusiasts so much.

00:28:20 ◼   ► It's like whatever numbers you come up with, whatever numbers you pick, whatever you feel

00:28:23 ◼   ► the line of products with a set of parameters in them.

00:28:27 ◼   ► The only thing I'm looking for is over time,

00:28:30 ◼   ► make that number go up.

00:28:32 ◼   ► And that's kind of what this whole website is about.

00:28:33 ◼   ► Look how these numbers have gone up.

00:28:35 ◼   ► And on the longterm, yeah, it does go up.

00:28:36 ◼   ► Look how much better we've done since like 1998.

00:28:38 ◼   ► Good job guys.

00:28:39 ◼   ► 1998, 2015, you made great advancements, right?

00:28:42 ◼   ► But one, two, three years in a row

00:28:44 ◼   ► with the same bottom storage tier on your phones

00:28:47 ◼   ► is too much because it feels like where's the progress?

00:28:49 ◼   ► Why are you holding steady at the three year ago levels?

00:28:52 ◼   ► Has really nothing changed since three years?

00:28:54 ◼   ► Is everything else exactly the same

00:28:55 ◼   ► Are we making bigger pictures? Are we making bigger videos? Are the application sizes increasing? Like all these things that change

00:29:01 ◼   ► Do we have can we not get more storage for the same price?

00:29:04 ◼   ► We want to see progress and it really this is the most grating thing for me about Apple because I'm so gung-ho and like oh

00:29:09 ◼   ► progress progress is that

00:29:11 ◼   ► Whatever numbers you pick

00:29:12 ◼   ► Please just let me see progress in them and doesn't have to be every single month every single six months and even maybe I'll give

00:29:18 ◼   ► You pass in every single year if the previous year you were above the you know

00:29:21 ◼   ► You seem to be generous, but if time passes and a stat doesn't change that's bad

00:29:25 ◼   ► And that's why the 5400 rpm hard drives like seriously. I remember purposely trying to avoid

00:29:30 ◼   ► 5400 rpm hard drives on laptops

00:29:33 ◼   ► I bought well before the unit the unibody error because like oh you want to get the fast hard

00:29:37 ◼   ► I'd get the 7200 rpm one right it feels like going back in time

00:29:40 ◼   ► It's like are you know we should be making meaningful progress, and we are everywhere else everywhere else is SSD wow what amazing progress great

00:29:46 ◼   ► Spread that across your entire line

00:29:48 ◼   ► except for these thinkers at the bottom which by the way

00:29:51 ◼   ► I think no one sent this theory in but it occurred to me after the show last week that

00:29:54 ◼   ► The only reason for the bottom of the line retina

00:29:58 ◼   ► I'm ack is to get people in the door, you know

00:30:00 ◼   ► Kind of like the cars that you advertise in the paper just to get them into the dealership

00:30:03 ◼   ► But you never actually saw anyone that car

00:30:05 ◼   ► It's like oh and retina starts at 1500 but not really because you should never buy the 1500 one

00:30:09 ◼   ► You're always gonna but you always have to get the option for whatever

00:30:11 ◼   ► You know the option that actually gives you a transmission or whatever option they have that you know

00:30:15 ◼   ► Oh if you want seats, then then you have to pay the you know to get get the convenience package for $800

00:30:21 ◼   ► So that could be another potential reason

00:30:23 ◼   ► They're trying to hit a price point to get people into the retina line like once they start considering well

00:30:27 ◼   ► There's a non right now, but look at this screen isn't it nice and you can get into this one for only 1,500 bucks

00:30:31 ◼   ► But no one should go out the door with the $1,500 model, so let me start

00:30:34 ◼   ► Selling you some options. That's another possibility

00:30:37 ◼   ► I don't know if that's the case but anyway

00:30:38 ◼   ► I just thought that then and now site was like Apple highlighting the worst feature of its new line of retina

00:30:44 ◼   ► iMacs unintentionally. Awesome. Nice. I actually, in my deep thoughts that I had earlier today,

00:30:54 ◼   ► apparently I had a lot of time to think earlier today, I was thinking again about, you know,

00:30:58 ◼   ► whenever it is I upgrade my personal machine, what should I get? And we talked about this

00:31:03 ◼   ► over a couple episodes, a few episodes back. And I was thinking again, you know, maybe

00:31:08 ◼   ► the right answer is an iMac, and maybe the right answer is I just get a 5K iMac. And

00:31:13 ◼   ► And the thing that made me stop...

00:31:17 ◼   ► I can sell you mine.

00:31:18 ◼   ► There we go.

00:31:20 ◼   ► At least you're honest.

00:31:21 ◼   ► Now we're getting to real talk.

00:31:23 ◼   ► Wait until the next Mac Pro comes out.

00:31:25 ◼   ► That's exactly right.

00:31:26 ◼   ► That's the most real of real talk.

00:31:28 ◼   ► Anyway, it occurred to me that the problem I have with an iMac is that I oftentimes work

00:31:35 ◼   ► from home, as we talked about.

00:31:36 ◼   ► And when I do work from home, I want to be able to plug in to an external monitor.

00:31:41 ◼   ► I am one of those people who works much better with two monitors, or at least more than just

00:31:48 ◼   ► the 15-inch monitor I have built into the computer.

00:31:52 ◼   ► And I don't really care that there isn't a target display mode or whatever it's called,

00:31:58 ◼   ► but in this case, it would have made the conversation with myself a little bit different if I knew

00:32:04 ◼   ► I could plug my Mac into that screen, even if I couldn't get retina resolutions, even

00:32:09 ◼   ► if it was just scaled or something, that would make it a much more compelling option because

00:32:15 ◼   ► otherwise I'm never really going to be able to plug into an external monitor or I'm going

00:32:19 ◼   ► to have to have a second monitor sitting next to this 27-inch behemoth on my desk, which

00:32:26 ◼   ► I really don't want.

00:32:27 ◼   ► And so I don't know what to do.

00:32:30 ◼   ► And I know that we talked about this before and I didn't know what to do then, and I still

00:32:33 ◼   ► don't know what to do now.

00:32:34 ◼   ► But the fact that I was really thinking about, well, how could I make an iMac work was really

00:32:39 ◼   ► weird for me in the same way that the what the same way I was thinking about when maybe

00:32:43 ◼   ► I should try to make a trackpad work for me. That was another weird thought for me because

00:32:48 ◼   ► I've never been interested in desktop Macs or computers of any sort since college. I've

00:32:53 ◼   ► never been interested in trackpads. I use them because I have to not because I want

00:32:57 ◼   ► to track point for life. So it's I've been having a bit of an identity crisis with regard

00:33:03 ◼   ► to my computing preferences over the last 24 hours.

00:33:06 ◼   ► Have you considered the iPad Pro?

00:33:08 ◼   ► No, not really, why?

00:33:10 ◼   ► I don't know, you're considering you seem to be open to all options.

00:33:13 ◼   ► No, let's not get crazy.

00:33:15 ◼   ► I'm standing in for Viticci saying, "You know, iPad, it's really big, you can split

00:33:18 ◼   ► the screen now."

00:33:19 ◼   ► Yeah, no, let's not talk crazy talk.

00:33:22 ◼   ► Although I did briefly consider an iPad Air 2, as opposed to my beloved Mini whenever

00:33:27 ◼   ► I upgrade that, and that was also an odd thought.

00:33:29 ◼   ► I don't know, just weird, weird times in my noggin these days, gentlemen.

00:33:34 ◼   ► Weird times.

00:33:35 ◼   ► You guys are so much worse than me.

00:33:36 ◼   ► Well, it's not worse, it's different.

00:33:39 ◼   ► You just buy everything and get rid of it instantly, including businesses.

00:33:43 ◼   ► At least I'm consistent.

00:33:45 ◼   ► But yes, at least you are consistent.

00:33:48 ◼   ► Both of us, actually, although perhaps me more vocally, hem and haw for three years

00:33:53 ◼   ► and then eventually get something that we should have bought three years prior.

00:33:55 ◼   ► I know what I'm waiting for on the computer.

00:33:57 ◼   ► And like I said, I'm probably going to get one of these iMacs.

00:33:59 ◼   ► It will be my wife's computer, not mine.

00:34:01 ◼   ► I'm just waiting to see, like, I'm basically waiting to decide which GPU I should get.

00:34:05 ◼   ► Is it worth it to get the big one?

00:34:06 ◼   ► Is the big one much hotter than the other one?

00:34:08 ◼   ► Is it a waste to get the big one

00:34:09 ◼   ► because it gets thermal throttle all the time,

00:34:11 ◼   ► so you might as well get the cheapest, smallest,

00:34:12 ◼   ► coolest one because the gaming performance

00:34:14 ◼   ► is gonna be crap either way.

00:34:15 ◼   ► Like, I just wanna see benchmarks and numbers

00:34:18 ◼   ► and noise stuff and wait for everyone else

00:34:20 ◼   ► to get the lemons off the assembly line,

00:34:21 ◼   ► and then I'll buy one.

00:34:23 ◼   ► - I mean, for whatever it's worth, like, you know,

00:34:24 ◼   ► I mean, I haven't used the new one yet,

00:34:25 ◼   ► but I imagine, I know it's the same thermal design

00:34:28 ◼   ► as the old one, you know,

00:34:29 ◼   ► maybe the actual thermal load might be different,

00:34:30 ◼   ► but in general, gaming on a 5K iMac works fine,

00:34:36 ◼   ► but is loud.

00:34:37 ◼   ► That's it, like the fan is loud when gaming.

00:34:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't think anything could be louder

00:34:41 ◼   ► than my 13-inch MacBook Air

00:34:44 ◼   ► that my kids play Minecraft on.

00:34:45 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:34:47 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know how much noise

00:34:48 ◼   ► the little tiny 13-inch Air can make,

00:34:50 ◼   ► but it is at max speed and max volume,

00:34:55 ◼   ► and it's not that loud because the Air

00:34:56 ◼   ► is such a tiny machine,

00:34:57 ◼   ► but it sounds like it's being hurt the whole time.

00:35:00 ◼   ► It's amazing this machine hasn't died.

00:35:02 ◼   ► They just sit in front of Minecraft for hours

00:35:03 ◼   ► and just, it sounds like a tiny little hairdryer behind there

00:35:05 ◼   ► going all the time. No, it is not that bad at all. But it is, you know, it's exactly

00:35:10 ◼   ► the same thing with their like asymmetrical blades on the 15 Retina. It's like, it sounds

00:35:15 ◼   ► more pleasant of a tone, but it's still just as loud, basically.

00:35:20 ◼   ► No. Anyway, like, I feel bad for them because, you know, there's the 27-inch non-Retina,

00:35:26 ◼   ► but still 27-inch monitor attached to that little 13-inch air, and they play Minecraft

00:35:30 ◼   ► full screen at native res, and they get like 12 frames

00:35:34 ◼   ► a second, I just, they don't know what they're missing,

00:35:36 ◼   ► I think, but boy, I look at it and I'm like,

00:35:39 ◼   ► you know, I don't know how they tolerate it.

00:35:41 ◼   ► I guess it's what they're used to, like,

00:35:43 ◼   ► well, I guess this is what Minecraft is like on a computer.

00:35:45 ◼   ► Like, it's faster on their iPads.

00:35:47 ◼   ► A little like the iPad 2 runs Minecraft Pocket Edition

00:35:50 ◼   ► at a higher frame rate, much higher frame rate

00:35:52 ◼   ► than this MacBook Air runs on this 27-inch screen.

00:35:55 ◼   ► - Goodness.

00:35:56 ◼   ► All right, so what else do we have going on?

00:35:58 ◼   ► We have something called Marco's pet topic.

00:36:00 ◼   ► Hey, you skipped a bunch of things.

00:36:02 ◼   ► I'm still not done with peripherals on the iMac.

00:36:04 ◼   ► Oh, god, it's like follow-up that's not follow-up.

00:36:06 ◼   ► OK, carry on.

00:36:06 ◼   ► I'll admit it.

00:36:07 ◼   ► It's a topic.

00:36:07 ◼   ► Yeah, those things we didn't mention last time.

00:36:11 ◼   ► We didn't mention last time that the keyboard and trackpad

00:36:14 ◼   ► work if they're plugged in, even if you have Bluetooth off.

00:36:17 ◼   ► So in theory, you could buy this keyboard and trackpad

00:36:20 ◼   ► and connect them to a computer that does not have Bluetooth.

00:36:23 ◼   ► Because even though they are Bluetooth peripherals

00:36:25 ◼   ► and they charge through a lightning port

00:36:26 ◼   ► that connects to USB at the other end, theoretically you could buy a computer with either broken

00:36:31 ◼   ► Bluetooth or no Bluetooth at all and still plug these things in and use them.

00:36:35 ◼   ► And since the trackpad and the keyboard don't move, you don't have to worry about fraying

00:36:38 ◼   ► the ends of the lightning cable by wiggling it back and forth.

00:36:42 ◼   ► And that brings up the other topic that's not in here, theories about why the charging

00:36:47 ◼   ► port is on the bottom of the mouse, which we talked about last time, and I was willing

00:36:51 ◼   ► to say aesthetics explains it 100%, but other people have theories like, well if you put

00:36:56 ◼   ► the plug like where you would expect the cable to connect aside from it being ugly it would

00:37:01 ◼   ► encourage people to keep it plugged in all the time and use it like that and then that

00:37:06 ◼   ► would inevitably fray the lightning cable which is not meant to be yanked around like

00:37:08 ◼   ► that or the connector would start wiggling or whatever so by putting it on the bottom

00:37:11 ◼   ► you assure that it is impossible to use it when it is plugged in and then therefore no

00:37:16 ◼   ► one will use it when it's plugged in.

00:37:18 ◼   ► That makes some sense I still think aesthetics is the you know Occam's razor it is the obvious

00:37:23 ◼   ► solution, it is the easiest solution, it explains that entirely.

00:37:26 ◼   ► Yeah, I guarantee you that was the reason. It was not because of the cable fraying questions,

00:37:30 ◼   ► no, not at all. The reason was it looks better.

00:37:32 ◼   ► Or the idea that people would accidentally use it. Like they understand they're buying

00:37:35 ◼   ► a wireless mouse, once they realize it can work with that, someone would probably use

00:37:38 ◼   ► a plug then, I don't doubt that because people will do all sorts of things. But in general

00:37:41 ◼   ► I don't think it's like, the biggest people would be confused or anything like that. Like

00:37:46 ◼   ► I said last week, doing it for aesthetic reasons makes so much sense except for the fact that

00:37:53 ◼   ► when you charge it, it is almost impossible

00:37:55 ◼   ► to make it aesthetically pleasing while charging.

00:37:57 ◼   ► And charging is a very infrequent occurrence,

00:38:00 ◼   ► but it's always going to look like you've harpooned a turtle

00:38:03 ◼   ► and it's in the throes of death or already dead

00:38:06 ◼   ► when you charge it.

00:38:07 ◼   ► It just doesn't look good.

00:38:09 ◼   ► It's not a good look.

00:38:10 ◼   ► There is no way, like, you know,

00:38:12 ◼   ► Johnny Ives' elegant desk with everything cleared off of it

00:38:15 ◼   ► and his minimalist setup with his beautiful apple peripherals

00:38:17 ◼   ► that look like a piece of sushi,

00:38:18 ◼   ► and then he's gotta charge his mouse,

00:38:20 ◼   ► and there's just no way to make that look good.

00:38:23 ◼   ► Maybe it's like, you know,

00:38:25 ◼   ► hanging a lantern on it in a movie script parlor

00:38:27 ◼   ► and it's like, we have this thing that's a problem.

00:38:29 ◼   ► Let's us point, let's say, yes, this seriously is a problem.

00:38:31 ◼   ► There is no way to make this look good when charging.

00:38:33 ◼   ► Guess what, your mouse is dead.

00:38:34 ◼   ► It was harpooned by a lightning cable.

00:38:36 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:38:37 ◼   ► - Well, this is, I mean, this is kind of,

00:38:39 ◼   ► this leads in very well to my pet topic,

00:38:41 ◼   ► if you wanna go right into that.

00:38:43 ◼   ► - Well, yes, but before we do,

00:38:44 ◼   ► you should tell us about something that's awesome.

00:38:46 ◼   ► - Well, John still has to tell us

00:38:46 ◼   ► about Apple's mouse click sounds concerns.

00:38:49 ◼   ► Isn't that part of your thing though?

00:38:50 ◼   ► Yeah, so this was a link to,

00:38:52 ◼   ► who did this one, I gotta look at it.

00:38:54 ◼   ► It was Steven Levy, right?

00:38:56 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:38:57 ◼   ► - He got access to Apple's input peripherals lab,

00:39:01 ◼   ► basically where they work up the mouse and keyboards

00:39:03 ◼   ► and everything, they were talking with the engineers

00:39:04 ◼   ► and they're all serious about everything.

00:39:06 ◼   ► Like we really swept the details

00:39:07 ◼   ► and they told him a big story

00:39:08 ◼   ► about how the click sound of the new mouse

00:39:10 ◼   ► wasn't quite right and they had to figure out

00:39:11 ◼   ► why it didn't sound right

00:39:12 ◼   ► and adjust the little feet that touched the bottom

00:39:15 ◼   ► and they angled the feet differently

00:39:17 ◼   ► to make the resonance of the click sound better

00:39:21 ◼   ► until they got the click just right

00:39:22 ◼   ► and it talks about sweating the details.

00:39:24 ◼   ► And a lot of people pointed out like,

00:39:26 ◼   ► that's all well and good.

00:39:27 ◼   ► I love that you sweat the details

00:39:28 ◼   ► on how nice the mouse click sounds,

00:39:30 ◼   ► but A, you may be missing the forest for the trees

00:39:33 ◼   ► and that a lot of people would say

00:39:34 ◼   ► that the shape is not particularly ergonomic

00:39:36 ◼   ► for the class of people

00:39:37 ◼   ► who want to rest their entire hand on the mouse.

00:39:38 ◼   ► But I still say that's a categorical,

00:39:40 ◼   ► like how you grip the mouse thing.

00:39:41 ◼   ► And B, you're really concentrating on that,

00:39:44 ◼   ► but everyone's okay with the speared turtle charging thing.

00:39:47 ◼   ► Like they really sweat the details except for this detail

00:39:49 ◼   ► because they say, you know what?

00:39:50 ◼   ► I don't care what it looks like when it's charging.

00:39:52 ◼   ► Have it look as ugly and stupid and awkward as you want.

00:39:54 ◼   ► That is the detail we are not sweating.

00:39:56 ◼   ► It's just fine, just forget it, right?

00:39:58 ◼   ► So the detail they're sweating, obviously,

00:40:00 ◼   ► and it makes kind of sense.

00:40:01 ◼   ► You click the mouse all the time.

00:40:02 ◼   ► You want it to be satisfying and feel good.

00:40:04 ◼   ► You charge the mouse very infrequently.

00:40:06 ◼   ► It's okay for that to just be a total disaster, I guess.

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00:42:44 ◼   ► - Alright, so tell us about this pet topic of yours.

00:42:47 ◼   ► - So this is, so I was kind of inspired by this iMac stuff,

00:42:51 ◼   ► you know, what John was saying, like the,

00:42:53 ◼   ► you know, being concerned about the detail

00:42:54 ◼   ► of how it looks when it's not plugged in,

00:42:56 ◼   ► and then, you know, the ridiculousness

00:42:59 ◼   ► of how the mouse looks when it is plugged in,

00:43:01 ◼   ► and how you can't use it while charging and everything.

00:43:03 ◼   ► And then, so we had an email from Florian Kunlens,

00:43:07 ◼   ► and he said, "For me, the new Magic peripherals discussion left me the impression that Apple's

00:43:12 ◼   ► laser focus might be a bit too focused. They care about the sound of the mouse but not

00:43:16 ◼   ► the weird charging port position, or at least not enough to change it. Meanwhile, it would

00:43:20 ◼   ► make a lot of sense being able to use the mouse wired only like the other two new peripherals.

00:43:25 ◼   ► Similar with the iMac and the 5400 RPM hard drive, why give it the super screen but not

00:43:30 ◼   ► a good drive? Same with the iPhone and 16 gig and so on."

00:43:34 ◼   ► And so, you know, for me, so that's, you know, end email.

00:43:39 ◼   ► I think this is a bigger discussion

00:43:41 ◼   ► that I've kind of alluded to for a while,

00:43:43 ◼   ► but I think it's worth diving into here,

00:43:46 ◼   ► 'cause these all are relevant.

00:43:47 ◼   ► You know, Apple, we all like to think

00:43:50 ◼   ► that Apple always does things that are best for usability,

00:43:53 ◼   ► and the fact is, that is not true now,

00:43:56 ◼   ► and that really has never been true.

00:43:58 ◼   ► Usability has always kind of been balanced

00:44:01 ◼   ► between appearance and profitability,

00:44:05 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:44:06 ◼   ► you know, for lack of a better word.

00:44:07 ◼   ► And it's kind of this tight balance

00:44:09 ◼   ► that Apple has had to walk.

00:44:11 ◼   ► If usefulness and usability and like, you know,

00:44:13 ◼   ► good engineering-wise things being awesome,

00:44:17 ◼   ► if those were the top priorities,

00:44:19 ◼   ► regardless of how it would look

00:44:20 ◼   ► or how profitable it would be,

00:44:23 ◼   ► Apple stuff would be,

00:44:25 ◼   ► like it would be more like the PC market.

00:44:27 ◼   ► We, you know, we have that in the market.

00:44:28 ◼   ► We see what that is like,

00:44:30 ◼   ► and that's not, it's a very low profit business,

00:44:33 ◼   ► it's very badly differentiated or minimally differentiated

00:44:37 ◼   ► and it's not that great.

00:44:38 ◼   ► And also, people like us who kinda care

00:44:41 ◼   ► about how things look a little bit,

00:44:44 ◼   ► we like to think that we are objective 'cause we're geeks

00:44:47 ◼   ► and we like to think like, oh, it doesn't matter

00:44:48 ◼   ► how it looks, I'll just get the one that functions best.

00:44:51 ◼   ► - Wait, who thinks that?

00:44:52 ◼   ► Who thinks that?

00:44:53 ◼   ► None of us do.

00:44:55 ◼   ► - Okay, so, good.

00:44:56 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:44:57 ◼   ► So in many cases, people really do care what it looks like.

00:45:00 ◼   ► So it looks very important.

00:45:01 ◼   ► Anyway, I can look at almost any Apple product and I can point out ways in which appearance,

00:45:08 ◼   ► or the overall visual appeal, just appearance, has trumped usefulness or real world use.

00:45:16 ◼   ► Like, John, pointing out that the mouse, when you charge it, it looks ridiculous when you

00:45:24 ◼   ► and you have to charge it on its back or on its side,

00:45:27 ◼   ► diagonally, like whatever it is, it looks ridiculous, right?

00:45:30 ◼   ► In reality, Apple worked so hard to make the iPhone

00:45:33 ◼   ► look super thin and be super small and look great,

00:45:37 ◼   ► but almost every iPhone I see in the wild

00:45:38 ◼   ► is in some kind of crappy case,

00:45:40 ◼   ► because the iPhone is, either it's a case for durability,

00:45:45 ◼   ► which is most of the time, or for better grip,

00:45:47 ◼   ► because the phones themselves aren't durable enough

00:45:49 ◼   ► and don't offer good enough grip,

00:45:51 ◼   ► or it's a case that's a battery case,

00:45:53 ◼   ► because the phones don't offer good enough battery life

00:45:55 ◼   ► for people, so it's like, there's always, you know,

00:45:57 ◼   ► there's always these trade-offs

00:46:00 ◼   ► that Apple makes for good looks.

00:46:02 ◼   ► Similar thing with the iPhone 6 design.

00:46:04 ◼   ► Why is the sleep/wake button directly across

00:46:07 ◼   ► from the volume up button, which makes it very hard

00:46:09 ◼   ► to hit just one of them,

00:46:11 ◼   ► without hitting the other one accidentally.

00:46:13 ◼   ► The reason, most likely, is because it looks better.

00:46:15 ◼   ► It is visually symmetrical on that level,

00:46:17 ◼   ► and so it looks better than offsetting those buttons at all

00:46:20 ◼   ► or by having them, by having the sleep/wake button

00:46:22 ◼   ► be like in the middle or still on top or whatever,

00:46:25 ◼   ► you know, it looked better that way.

00:46:27 ◼   ► That might not be the only reason it's there,

00:46:29 ◼   ► but it's probably the biggest reason it's there.

00:46:32 ◼   ► - I don't think looks is the reason

00:46:33 ◼   ► for the sleep/wake button at all.

00:46:35 ◼   ► I think looks is the reason that the tops

00:46:37 ◼   ► are aligned exactly, but I don't think there's any place

00:46:40 ◼   ► you could put that that is better

00:46:42 ◼   ► than opposite the volume buttons, unfortunately,

00:46:45 ◼   ► 'cause top is too high and once you slide

00:46:46 ◼   ► either the volume buttons or the power button down,

00:46:48 ◼   ► they become much more awkward to reach.

00:46:50 ◼   ► - Well then, so even if it was like centered

00:46:52 ◼   ► between the two rather than align with the top one.

00:46:55 ◼   ► - You think that would help?

00:46:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, I do actually.

00:46:57 ◼   ► I think it, I mean it still wouldn't be ideal,

00:46:59 ◼   ► but I think it would be easier to hit just one of them

00:47:01 ◼   ► if they weren't exactly aligned.

00:47:03 ◼   ► - Eh, maybe, maybe.

00:47:05 ◼   ► Anyway, that would still be aesthetically aligned

00:47:07 ◼   ► 'cause it would be exactly centered

00:47:08 ◼   ► between the two volume buttons.

00:47:09 ◼   ► - Yeah, but I'm sure somebody said,

00:47:10 ◼   ► I'm sure somebody was like, no, it looks better like this,

00:47:12 ◼   ► and that's why, anyway, so.

00:47:13 ◼   ► - Your other arguments are stronger.

00:47:14 ◼   ► Well, I think your arguments got weaker as you went on,

00:47:16 ◼   ► as in, weaker is defined by whether I agree with you or not.

00:47:20 ◼   ► - Sure, okay, but you know, let's go, you know,

00:47:22 ◼   ► And even with the new stuff, like the iPad Pro,

00:47:24 ◼   ► I called out, and many people did,

00:47:27 ◼   ► one of the big problems with the iPad Pro

00:47:28 ◼   ► that people are gonna have in practice

00:47:30 ◼   ► is that there's nowhere on it to put the pencil.

00:47:34 ◼   ► Like if you have a pencil, there is nowhere on the iPad,

00:47:37 ◼   ► even if you buy the big keyboard case,

00:47:39 ◼   ► there's no slot for the pencil.

00:47:42 ◼   ► And part of that is 'cause it's super thin,

00:47:43 ◼   ► there's nowhere, it's just not thick enough to have a slot.

00:47:46 ◼   ► The pencil, by the way, which as CGP Grey pointed out

00:47:49 ◼   ► on Cortex, the pencil which is perfectly round

00:47:52 ◼   ► and can roll away because that looks better.

00:47:54 ◼   ► - Did you see the person who, I forget who it was,

00:47:56 ◼   ► posted a picture of the Surface,

00:47:58 ◼   ► the stylus for the Surface 4?

00:48:00 ◼   ► It's shaped like a pencil,

00:48:02 ◼   ► and the Apple Pencil is shaped like a pen.

00:48:04 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:48:05 ◼   ► Anyway, so there's issues with that,

00:48:08 ◼   ► where at least for the keyboard case,

00:48:11 ◼   ► at least make a hole,

00:48:12 ◼   ► 'cause you know there's gonna be

00:48:13 ◼   ► a million third-party iPad cases

00:48:15 ◼   ► that are gonna have pen holes in them

00:48:17 ◼   ► because that's what people actually need

00:48:18 ◼   ► if they're gonna have the iPad Pencil,

00:48:20 ◼   ► but it'd be great if Apple made them,

00:48:24 ◼   ► 'cause Apple's cases are generally pretty nice.

00:48:25 ◼   ► So anyway.

00:48:26 ◼   ► - They should attach it with a chain like at the banks,

00:48:28 ◼   ► like one of those little metal chains

00:48:31 ◼   ► just so no one walks away with it

00:48:32 ◼   ► and you could have the metal things

00:48:33 ◼   ► just clunking around as you try to write.

00:48:34 ◼   ► That'd be great.

00:48:35 ◼   ► - Right.

00:48:36 ◼   ► Obviously, the new MacBook One,

00:48:38 ◼   ► that has a lot of these trade-offs for thinness

00:48:42 ◼   ► because it looks nicer.

00:48:43 ◼   ► And as I've ranted many times before,

00:48:45 ◼   ► I think the keyboard and the trackpad both suffer from that,

00:48:49 ◼   ► from this trade-off just to make it look thinner.

00:48:51 ◼   ► But again, the MacBook, like how many people go buy MacBooks

00:48:55 ◼   ► because they are, like they kind of inspire lust

00:48:59 ◼   ► like when you touch one, when you see one,

00:49:01 ◼   ► it's like my God, it's amazing.

00:49:02 ◼   ► So it does work.

00:49:04 ◼   ► The iMac is a curious case of this

00:49:07 ◼   ► because like the iMac and the Mac Pro,

00:49:08 ◼   ► you could look at all these things.

00:49:11 ◼   ► The iMac is really, really thin

00:49:15 ◼   ► and if they would be willing to make it thicker,

00:49:18 ◼   ► even just the thickness it used to be,

00:49:20 ◼   ► you'd be able to do a lot of things that would be very nice.

00:49:23 ◼   ► You could, for instance, the 21 inch model

00:49:25 ◼   ► could use three and a half inch hard drives again,

00:49:27 ◼   ► which would make them faster and cheaper and larger.

00:49:30 ◼   ► You know, you could, if it was thicker,

00:49:31 ◼   ► you could have a kind of more robust cooling solution

00:49:35 ◼   ► so that you could have the fans

00:49:37 ◼   ► that don't spin as fast under high load.

00:49:40 ◼   ► So, like the Mac Pro has that one giant fan,

00:49:44 ◼   ► which is awesome because you can stress out a Mac Pro

00:49:46 ◼   ► like crazy and you will not hear it,

00:49:48 ◼   ► no matter what it's doing, you will not hear it.

00:49:50 ◼   ► The iMac is much more designed like a laptop

00:49:53 ◼   ► and because it's so super thin, it kinda has to be.

00:49:56 ◼   ► So the iMac is, I think it's one main fan in the middle

00:50:00 ◼   ► or something like that, but anyway,

00:50:00 ◼   ► it's like, it has to spin really fast

00:50:03 ◼   ► under very heavy CPU and GPU loads

00:50:06 ◼   ► and it's very loud as a result

00:50:07 ◼   ► and if they'd be willing to make the enclosure thicker,

00:50:10 ◼   ► they could have larger, slower fans in there

00:50:12 ◼   ► that could have the same degree of cooling,

00:50:14 ◼   ► but they don't because it looks better when it's thin

00:50:17 ◼   ► from the side, which like, I have,

00:50:19 ◼   ► I'm looking at this 5K iMac on my desk,

00:50:22 ◼   ► if it was three inches thicker, I would never notice.

00:50:25 ◼   ► 'Cause I would never see it,

00:50:27 ◼   ► because I'm looking at it head on,

00:50:28 ◼   ► and it's against a wall, it doesn't matter.

00:50:30 ◼   ► - But when it's on the reception desk at a fancy office,

00:50:33 ◼   ► people do see the back.

00:50:34 ◼   ► - Yeah, but you know, even then, they really can't,

00:50:37 ◼   ► but yeah, that's why they do it,

00:50:39 ◼   ► and it looks nice in their press shots,

00:50:40 ◼   ► and they like saying how thin it is,

00:50:42 ◼   ► even though it's only that thin on the edge, but oh well.

00:50:44 ◼   ► Oh, and also with the iMac,

00:50:45 ◼   ► one of my biggest complaints about the iMac

00:50:47 ◼   ► is that the stand is too low.

00:50:50 ◼   ► If you actually want to have an ergonomically correct setup

00:50:53 ◼   ► with an iMac or an Apple Cinema Display,

00:50:55 ◼   ► you have to like put it on a book or something.

00:50:57 ◼   ► You have to lift it up by about three inches.

00:50:59 ◼   ► - What is yours on?

00:51:01 ◼   ► - Mine is on a, I believe it's called the Elevation Stand.

00:51:05 ◼   ► - I thought you had it on top of one of your weird,

00:51:06 ◼   ► expensive German amplifiers.

00:51:08 ◼   ► - I used to, 'cause those are also the exact right height,

00:51:09 ◼   ► but now I move those to the left and right

00:51:12 ◼   ► 'cause they're holding speakers up for, anyway.

00:51:15 ◼   ► So I have an elevation stand from Elevation Lab,

00:51:17 ◼   ► which is pretty perfect.

00:51:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, all of Apple's monitors,

00:51:20 ◼   ► monitors and iMacs have always been too low.

00:51:22 ◼   ► I have mine on a stand too.

00:51:23 ◼   ► My stand doesn't even need high enough.

00:51:25 ◼   ► I have like a clear piece of Lexan

00:51:26 ◼   ► that's kind of curved into U shape.

00:51:28 ◼   ► - Right, yeah.

00:51:29 ◼   ► - And I wish it could be higher still.

00:51:30 ◼   ► I kind of bought it thinking,

00:51:31 ◼   ► well, I'm surely gonna replace this 23-inch monitor

00:51:33 ◼   ► as soon as they come out with a big 27-inch one or whatever,

00:51:36 ◼   ► and I just never bought one,

00:51:37 ◼   ► so now it's just been too low for a long time.

00:51:39 ◼   ► But yeah, you're right, all of their stands are too low.

00:51:42 ◼   ► which I mean, the solution that other monitor makers do,

00:51:47 ◼   ► like Dell or NEC or Asus or whatever,

00:51:50 ◼   ► they make adjustable height stands,

00:51:52 ◼   ► like especially on the fancier models.

00:51:53 ◼   ► And adjustable height stands just all look gross

00:51:55 ◼   ► and don't feel good to use.

00:51:57 ◼   ► And you know what I mean?

00:51:58 ◼   ► Like an Apple wouldn't do that

00:51:59 ◼   ► because making an adjustable height stand,

00:52:01 ◼   ► making a very good adjustable height stand

00:52:03 ◼   ► would be really expensive.

00:52:04 ◼   ► And making a cruddy one makes them feel bad

00:52:06 ◼   ► about their products.

00:52:07 ◼   ► So they don't.

00:52:08 ◼   ► So it's a single contiguous piece of bent aluminum

00:52:10 ◼   ► with a little hole for the cables to come out of,

00:52:12 ◼   ► and that's it.

00:52:13 ◼   ► - And even then, obviously, in all of their photos of it,

00:52:16 ◼   ► there's no cables plugged into any of their products,

00:52:19 ◼   ► because cables are ugly.

00:52:20 ◼   ► But again, the reality of somebody using these Apple

00:52:24 ◼   ► products is usually uglier and clunkier

00:52:27 ◼   ► than the way they're presented,

00:52:28 ◼   ► and because it looks gross.

00:52:29 ◼   ► And I can't really blame them for that,

00:52:31 ◼   ► but I do wish that their designs would consider it more.

00:52:34 ◼   ► And I think it seems like over time,

00:52:36 ◼   ► the reason I bring all this up,

00:52:37 ◼   ► the reason why I wanted to talk about this tonight

00:52:38 ◼   ► that it does seem like over time, the balance between what is the best overall product versus

00:52:46 ◼   ► what looks the best versus what's most profitable, I feel like the best overall product side

00:52:51 ◼   ► of that triangle has been losing a little too much recently. That in seeking out higher

00:52:56 ◼   ► average selling prices, more upsells, more profit, and also I think, I don't know how

00:53:02 ◼   ► the internal politics work, but it does seem like the most powerful person in the company

00:53:06 ◼   ► is Johnny Ive from the outside. That's how it looks to me. It seems like he can do basically

00:53:10 ◼   ► whatever he wants and that anything he says just goes. You know, because Steve was so

00:53:15 ◼   ► involved in product and design, I'm guessing Steve and Johnny had a really nice balance

00:53:21 ◼   ► going that Tim and Johnny just can't have because Tim is not the same kind of person.

00:53:25 ◼   ► You know, he doesn't, he's not really in that role as much. And so I think now Johnny

00:53:29 ◼   ► has so much power and it's going less checked or possibly even unchecked. And so what we're

00:53:36 ◼   ► seeing now is like we're seeing like the Johnny and Tim sides get really strong of

00:53:41 ◼   ► like you know if you think about Tim as like the profitability side right you know he that

00:53:46 ◼   ► is Apple is nailing the profitability Johnny is making these beautiful looking objects

00:53:51 ◼   ► but it seems like that that advocate for keeping the product in check with Steve and that role

00:53:59 ◼   ► is now just kind of you know it's falling to other people but none of them are as maybe

00:54:05 ◼   ► Maybe it's power, maybe it's just high ranking,

00:54:08 ◼   ► whatever it is, none of them are exerting as much influence,

00:54:12 ◼   ► it seems, over the product line the way Steve did and could.

00:54:16 ◼   ► Versus Johnny and Tim who are, if you think about Johnny

00:54:19 ◼   ► as wanting the beautiful things and Tim as wanting

00:54:21 ◼   ► the profitability, which those are probably

00:54:22 ◼   ► oversimplifications, but those are clearly kind of

00:54:25 ◼   ► where their strengths have lied in the past.

00:54:27 ◼   ► If you look at that, it does seem like there's this

00:54:30 ◼   ► kind of vacuum where Steve used to be in keeping

00:54:33 ◼   ► product stuff in better balance with those two factors.

00:54:37 ◼   ► - I don't know, I would've put Steve in the camp

00:54:39 ◼   ► that's just as extreme in terms of wanting

00:54:41 ◼   ► to remove everything, and it seemed to me,

00:54:45 ◼   ► because every time you saw an interview with Steve Jobs,

00:54:48 ◼   ► it always seemed like what he really wanted

00:54:49 ◼   ► was to get rid of all this crap.

00:54:51 ◼   ► Like, what he really wanted essentially was the iPad, right?

00:54:54 ◼   ► Can we just get rid of all this crap?

00:54:55 ◼   ► I don't want any ports, I don't want any expansion slots,

00:54:57 ◼   ► I just want it to be like a beautiful single-piece obelisk

00:55:02 ◼   ► that has no features on it whatsoever,

00:55:03 ◼   ► but is a computing device.

00:55:05 ◼   ► I mean, he's the guy who made the Power Mac G4 Cube,

00:55:08 ◼   ► for crying out loud.

00:55:09 ◼   ► He wanted to get rid of it all, hide it, get rid of it all,

00:55:13 ◼   ► and yet even in the Cube, did he make the Cube

00:55:15 ◼   ► with no FireWire ports, with no connections for a keyboard,

00:55:19 ◼   ► with everything wireless?

00:55:20 ◼   ► No, because he couldn't do that yet.

00:55:23 ◼   ► And so I definitely feel like if he was still around,

00:55:25 ◼   ► not that it matters, but anyway,

00:55:27 ◼   ► that he would be on the side of get rid of everything.

00:55:29 ◼   ► And in that vein, like the idea of getting rid of everything,

00:55:34 ◼   ► the little triangle that you sketched out between,

00:55:36 ◼   ► I figured it was like profitability,

00:55:38 ◼   ► does it look nice and is it a good overall product

00:55:40 ◼   ► or whatever?

00:55:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, basically.

00:55:41 ◼   ► - There is a little bit of overlap there

00:55:44 ◼   ► because when I look at the products they're making

00:55:46 ◼   ► these days, aside from thinking that Steve Jobs

00:55:49 ◼   ► would be totally going home,

00:55:50 ◼   ► removing every single port and every single feature

00:55:52 ◼   ► and just making them have nothing

00:55:53 ◼   ► and just removing all choice

00:55:55 ◼   ► because it's just, you shouldn't need that crap

00:55:56 ◼   ► and it's annoying.

00:55:58 ◼   ► There is something to be said for whether intentionally or accidentally, and I think it is mostly intentionally,

00:56:02 ◼   ► doing stuff like

00:56:05 ◼   ► removing the number of possible moving parts,

00:56:08 ◼   ► reducing the number of joints, fewer parts, fewer joints, fewer moving things, fewer ports, fewer holes,

00:56:14 ◼   ► simpler, smaller, less stuff.

00:56:17 ◼   ► That does actually make a better product and

00:56:20 ◼   ► aggressively pursuing that can get you, you know, it's not like a smooth gradient of like, well it was,

00:56:27 ◼   ► You know more reports are good, but fewer reports is fewer things to break

00:56:30 ◼   ► Apple seems to always be looking for the next kind of

00:56:34 ◼   ► Discontinuity or step jump where it's like well if we remove you know

00:56:37 ◼   ► It could be argued that the you know

00:56:39 ◼   ► The iPhone or the iPad like that if we remove everything about computers

00:56:42 ◼   ► We give you a little handheld computer that we call a smartphone remove everything about it. No finder. No file system

00:56:47 ◼   ► No installing your own apps a bubble like they're looking for that in hardware design - now are they successful?

00:56:53 ◼   ► Do they make products that actually that people appreciate? Oh, it's great

00:56:55 ◼   ► It only has one port.

00:56:56 ◼   ► See how that's better than two

00:56:57 ◼   ► because one is fewer than two

00:56:59 ◼   ► and it's less things to break

00:57:00 ◼   ► and it's simpler and blah, blah, blah.

00:57:01 ◼   ► I think they blow it a lot.

00:57:02 ◼   ► But it seems to me what they're going for all the time is

00:57:06 ◼   ► to try to make it simpler.

00:57:09 ◼   ► And that instinct is mostly a good instinct.

00:57:13 ◼   ► It's just like what you're putting in the axis of like,

00:57:15 ◼   ► is this a better product?

00:57:16 ◼   ► It's judging it by the criteria of like kind of,

00:57:19 ◼   ► is it useful for me in the same way

00:57:21 ◼   ► that the previous Mac was used for me

00:57:22 ◼   ► only faster and nicer looking or whatever.

00:57:25 ◼   ► And they're always trying to say,

00:57:26 ◼   ► but we wanna go beyond that.

00:57:27 ◼   ► We want you to not need any ports.

00:57:29 ◼   ► We want need, you know,

00:57:30 ◼   ► if they could make mice and keyboards

00:57:32 ◼   ► that you didn't plug in ever, they would.

00:57:34 ◼   ► Like tiny little atomic power plants.

00:57:35 ◼   ► Like they would seal them up and just say like,

00:57:37 ◼   ► you never plug these in, they're wireless forever.

00:57:39 ◼   ► If they could put wireless power to the iMac,

00:57:40 ◼   ► so it looks like it did in their product shots, they would.

00:57:42 ◼   ► Like they do, they wanna remove everything

00:57:44 ◼   ► that makes this thing a computer.

00:57:45 ◼   ► They wish, if you could give,

00:57:47 ◼   ► like Johnny I have a magic wand and say,

00:57:49 ◼   ► you can make a computer that's anything you want.

00:57:51 ◼   ► Assuming he didn't immediately go into images

00:57:52 ◼   ► projected on the back of your retina by nano machines,

00:57:55 ◼   ► He would just make a beautiful floating screen

00:57:58 ◼   ► that floats in midair and has no edges, right?

00:58:00 ◼   ► And input devices that are invisible,

00:58:03 ◼   ► they'd either a mind controlled

00:58:05 ◼   ► or controlled by your hands not touching anything.

00:58:07 ◼   ► And there would be nothing.

00:58:08 ◼   ► Like they all want to get rid of the computer

00:58:10 ◼   ► and just make it it's you and the screen.

00:58:11 ◼   ► That's all there is.

00:58:12 ◼   ► Maybe they'd make something like VR or whatever.

00:58:14 ◼   ► And so I see in this thing that you're attributing

00:58:17 ◼   ► to aesthetics as in I want it to look

00:58:19 ◼   ► like a beautiful sculpture or nickel and diming as in,

00:58:22 ◼   ► Now the GPU and the iMac could support two external screens,

00:58:26 ◼   ► as people in the chat room were saying,

00:58:27 ◼   ► but that would mean more ports,

00:58:28 ◼   ► and more ports mean supporting those ports

00:58:30 ◼   ► and making sure we have the buses to go through them.

00:58:32 ◼   ► It's more expensive to do that,

00:58:33 ◼   ► and I gotta drill my holes in the case or whatever.

00:58:35 ◼   ► Then I'm just trying to say, we just wanna, you know,

00:58:38 ◼   ► Johnny Iovin and his white world,

00:58:40 ◼   ► boil it down to its essence.

00:58:41 ◼   ► What is it, just you and the screen?

00:58:42 ◼   ► You shouldn't need more than one screen,

00:58:44 ◼   ► just you and this beautiful screen

00:58:45 ◼   ► that's just wrapping around your whole head

00:58:47 ◼   ► and it's all you can see,

00:58:48 ◼   ► and you put your hand on the sushi,

00:58:49 ◼   ► and you touch a little keyboard

00:58:51 ◼   ► that has no edges and nothing is plugged in

00:58:53 ◼   ► and there are no wires and that's the, you know,

00:58:55 ◼   ► I see them striving for that

00:58:57 ◼   ► and I kind of applaud them striving for that

00:58:59 ◼   ► and I don't attribute it all to just Johnny Ives disconnect

00:59:01 ◼   ► from like, well, I don't want people to actually use these

00:59:03 ◼   ► and they just want it to be sculpture.

00:59:04 ◼   ► I feel like he does want them to be useful things.

00:59:06 ◼   ► He just has the same sort of allergy

00:59:08 ◼   ► that I always send to Steve Jobs

00:59:10 ◼   ► to the greebles in ILM parlance

00:59:15 ◼   ► or special effects industry parlance of computers,

00:59:18 ◼   ► the little doodads and doohickeys and ports and flanges and switches and I mean

00:59:22 ◼   ► it's like the rotation lock has gone from the stupid iPad because like can we get rid

00:59:25 ◼   ► of that switch if we can get rid of it because I want there to be nothing I just

00:59:28 ◼   ► want it to be a screen like that's why everyone thinks the home button is going

00:59:32 ◼   ► away this is like one of the few remaining moving parts in the thing so

00:59:35 ◼   ► but I totally get your point I just I'm myself internally conflicted about

00:59:40 ◼   ► applauding their their aspirations while at the same time saying you missed the

00:59:46 ◼   ► mark with this particular feature or product or whatever,

00:59:48 ◼   ► and we may differ on what those are.

00:59:50 ◼   ► So I get where you're coming from, but I sympathize.

00:59:53 ◼   ► - Well, but most of what you just said I agree with.

00:59:56 ◼   ► It's just really an issue of the balance

00:59:58 ◼   ► and whether they have the right balance now or not.

01:00:01 ◼   ► I totally agree that generally the track they're on,

01:00:05 ◼   ► the direction they're going is generally good,

01:00:07 ◼   ► and I generally think, obviously, the world thinks so too.

01:00:10 ◼   ► It's working for them.

01:00:11 ◼   ► Who am I to say that this massively successful company

01:00:15 ◼   ► is doing something wrong, but the reality is

01:00:19 ◼   ► that in the real world there are things that are not ideal

01:00:21 ◼   ► with the way some of this stuff works,

01:00:23 ◼   ► and I do think, again, I think they're on the right track

01:00:27 ◼   ► overall, but there are little course corrections

01:00:30 ◼   ► that are necessary that are not happening now.

01:00:34 ◼   ► It does seem like it's kind of out of whack

01:00:37 ◼   ► with the priorities, and that might get magnified over time.

01:00:41 ◼   ► I don't know, I mean, when I read that Johnny Ive

01:00:44 ◼   ► was moving into the clouds to be his new position,

01:00:47 ◼   ► I was happy.

01:00:48 ◼   ► Everyone else was like, "Oh no, we're gonna lose Johnny."

01:00:50 ◼   ► I was like, "Let him ascend into the heavens

01:00:54 ◼   ► "to whatever he wants to do,

01:00:55 ◼   ► "because I would love to get new blood under him,

01:00:59 ◼   ► "get new people up there, get new ideas here."

01:01:01 ◼   ► - I mean, there's a whole team.

01:01:02 ◼   ► That's the whole thing with Johnny.

01:01:03 ◼   ► He's not coming up with all these designs.

01:01:05 ◼   ► The most you can say is that he's giving yes, no, no, yes

01:01:08 ◼   ► to 17 designs that are presented to him.

01:01:10 ◼   ► And so in that way, he has an influence over the company,

01:01:12 ◼   ► but other people are designing these products.

01:01:14 ◼   ► Maybe he gives them notes. Maybe he says I'm thinking I'm thinking like an egg, but with no rounded parts go like

01:01:20 ◼   ► I don't know what he says to people to inspire them, but he's not there with a pencil drawing every single product

01:01:25 ◼   ► I don't know which products he even has a handed but you're right like in the same way Steve Jobs wasn't drawing anything

01:01:30 ◼   ► He was just saying sitting back and say I I'm thinking like leather like on my Lear jet and then iOS 6 would come

01:01:36 ◼   ► He would go no. Yes. Yes. No, no. Yes. Look at this other sample. No - yes

01:01:39 ◼   ► Like Johnny I was more involved in Steve Jobs and just saying no and yes

01:01:42 ◼   ► But like we're using him as a standard just for the people who get the idea that's tonight

01:01:46 ◼   ► I was designing we're using him and his philosophy as a standard so a new blood

01:01:49 ◼   ► I feel like with him ascending that maybe that he is delegating more of the

01:01:54 ◼   ► What makes the cut and what doesn't and maybe also delegating the the direction like what I always think about is uh

01:02:01 ◼   ► You guys never read the Johnny I book. It's a good one that Lander Canyon one. It's pretty good

01:02:06 ◼   ► Talking about the early iMac designs and how they're like well

01:02:10 ◼   ► Now we can go a lot of ways with this phone thing.

01:02:12 ◼   ► It's probably gonna be some kind of rectangle, rounded,

01:02:14 ◼   ► and we have a couple of different designs.

01:02:15 ◼   ► And one of the ones that came up really early on

01:02:17 ◼   ► was essentially the iPhone 4 design.

01:02:18 ◼   ► You know the one we all know,

01:02:20 ◼   ► it's like it looks like an ice cream sandwich

01:02:21 ◼   ► with the metal thing,

01:02:24 ◼   ► and then the glass thing on the front and back.

01:02:26 ◼   ► That was like one of the very first designs

01:02:28 ◼   ► they were thinking of for the iPhone.

01:02:29 ◼   ► They just couldn't make it happen for the iPhone 1.

01:02:31 ◼   ► It was just like, well, that's great and all.

01:02:34 ◼   ► That was one of their ideas in the mix,

01:02:35 ◼   ► and it was like manufacturability problems,

01:02:38 ◼   ► and how big it had to be,

01:02:40 ◼   ► and the timeline that they had.

01:02:42 ◼   ► And so they basically had to say,

01:02:43 ◼   ► even though we like that design the best,

01:02:44 ◼   ► what about this design?

01:02:45 ◼   ► Or what about this design?

01:02:46 ◼   ► The iPhone 1 design that came up

01:02:48 ◼   ► was like the fourth compromise down of like,

01:02:51 ◼   ► or none of us really like this design.

01:02:53 ◼   ► Like if you think of the original iPhone,

01:02:54 ◼   ► you can tell that John A.I. was probably upset

01:02:56 ◼   ► about many aspects of it, right?

01:02:58 ◼   ► But it's the best they could do with the time and materials

01:03:00 ◼   ► and skills they had at the time.

01:03:01 ◼   ► But eventually, by the time the iPhone 4 came around,

01:03:04 ◼   ► he didn't give up.

01:03:05 ◼   ► He's like, I remember that ice cream sandwich one,

01:03:06 ◼   ► and it was pretty awesome,

01:03:07 ◼   ► and we're gonna make that phone.

01:03:08 ◼   ► And they did eventually make it.

01:03:10 ◼   ► That's kind of the, you know,

01:03:13 ◼   ► the compromises that are necessary in industrial design.

01:03:17 ◼   ► And I see in a lot of the products they're making now,

01:03:19 ◼   ► like the ones that look like transitional fossils,

01:03:21 ◼   ► where it's like, well, we're not quite at the point

01:03:23 ◼   ► where you can get rid of all these things,

01:03:24 ◼   ► but they have a design that almost tries to get rid of them,

01:03:25 ◼   ► but leaves this little weird vestige.

01:03:27 ◼   ► And in that way, you can kind of see the previous iteration.

01:03:31 ◼   ► Now that the new keyboard is out,

01:03:32 ◼   ► look at the old tiny Bluetooth keyboard,

01:03:35 ◼   ► and you're like, what is all that crap around the edge?

01:03:37 ◼   ► "Why is that big barrel thing over there?

01:03:39 ◼   ► I don't understand it.

01:03:40 ◼   ► Like it seems unnecessary."

01:03:41 ◼   ► And that's what they're trying to do with their advance.

01:03:43 ◼   ► Maybe they had this as idea,

01:03:44 ◼   ► like the first time they drew,

01:03:45 ◼   ► "We're gonna make a Bluetooth aluminum keyboard, go."

01:03:47 ◼   ► So they drew that.

01:03:49 ◼   ► And I said, "Yeah, we can't do that

01:03:51 ◼   ► 'cause we need a place to put batteries

01:03:53 ◼   ► and we, you know, we need to be bigger

01:03:56 ◼   ► and we're comfortable."

01:03:57 ◼   ► How about this?

01:03:57 ◼   ► I don't know if that's true, I'm just making this up.

01:03:58 ◼   ► But the whole idea that they,

01:04:02 ◼   ► what I'm finding is the idea that anyone inside Apple

01:04:05 ◼   ► is particularly pleased with any product they produce

01:04:07 ◼   ► because I think every product they put out,

01:04:09 ◼   ► there is potentially a design that they really wanted

01:04:12 ◼   ► to make that they either couldn't or didn't make

01:04:14 ◼   ► that's still sitting in the back of their own mind

01:04:16 ◼   ► annoying at them.

01:04:17 ◼   ► That's what drives them forward to make the next one.

01:04:19 ◼   ► So maybe what I'm saying is maybe a lot of people

01:04:23 ◼   ► inside Apple are just as disappointed

01:04:24 ◼   ► in like the lumpy back of the iMac as we are.

01:04:27 ◼   ► And just that like, you know, that's design is compromising.

01:04:31 ◼   ► I have to say, what can we ship?

01:04:32 ◼   ► And what's the best we can make it look?

01:04:34 ◼   ► Even the 20th anniversary Mac. Do you guys remember that? The big vertical thing?

01:04:38 ◼   ► You don't remember this before your time. Anyway.

01:04:40 ◼   ► Oh, is this the one that Hackett's obsessed with?

01:04:42 ◼   ► Yeah, it's it's weird looking. Anyway, that one, it was at Johnny Ive Design.

01:04:46 ◼   ► Oh, I'm gonna make this beautiful 20th anniversary Mac and use one of these new fancy LCD screens.

01:04:50 ◼   ► They can have leather and wood and all this stuff like that.

01:04:52 ◼   ► But then they said it had to have like ports or I forget what the thing was. It had to have some expandability.

01:04:58 ◼   ► He's like, "Ugh." And he had to put this big giant

01:05:00 ◼   ► Backpack on the thing like he had to take his design that he liked and add like two inches like this big lump on the

01:05:06 ◼   ► Back of it so you can see if you google for you can see the 20th anniversary Mac both with and without the lump I forget

01:05:11 ◼   ► If it was expansion chassis or expansion guards or something like that that was mandated to him from from above the Johnny

01:05:16 ◼   ► I have of today will not let that be mandated to him from above if someone says oh

01:05:20 ◼   ► But by the way after you've already designed thing actually has to have three more ports drill some more holes. He's gonna go no

01:05:26 ◼   ► And that I think is better because I think the compromise in the 20th anniversary Mac makes that machine worse

01:05:31 ◼   ► Than if you just said I'm making it the way I want to make it if it doesn't have whatever the feature that was the backpack

01:05:37 ◼   ► Added oh well tough luck

01:05:39 ◼   ► That's what it's got and then you can just sort of accept it and say this is the computer

01:05:43 ◼   ► And it looks the way I want it to look and it's got the features that I want and if you don't like it

01:05:46 ◼   ► No one will buy it like the power Mac G5 G4 Cube and we'll go back and we'll reconsider

01:05:50 ◼   ► We'll go back to our rooms and think about what we've done and try again and try to make a computer people will buy

01:05:54 ◼   ► I don't know how I feel about this because on the one side I agree with you guys and

01:06:01 ◼   ► I think that there are a lot of compromises.

01:06:03 ◼   ► I would love to have a phone that I would never even have to think twice about lasting

01:06:09 ◼   ► all day.

01:06:10 ◼   ► I would love to have a phone that when I go to a football game and I know I'm going

01:06:15 ◼   ► to be using my phone a fair bit and I'm going to be searching for signal for three

01:06:18 ◼   ► and a half hours, I don't need to bother putting it in a battery case.

01:06:22 ◼   ► Yes, I am aware that the plus club exists, but I am a human with human-sized hands, so I want a human-sized phone

01:06:29 ◼   ► I would love to have a phone that's a little thicker with a little more battery

01:06:33 ◼   ► But I'm looking at my phone now, and it is a freaking beautiful device

01:06:38 ◼   ► It really truly is and with this Apple leather case on it is perhaps less beautiful than it could possibly be

01:06:43 ◼   ► but it's still freaking beautiful and

01:06:47 ◼   ► I charge my phone every night and only have to worry about battery life when I know I'm going to be using it hard

01:06:54 ◼   ► All day long. Otherwise, I never have to worry about it. Is that really so bad? Could it be better? Sure

01:07:00 ◼   ► But is that really so bad?

01:07:02 ◼   ► I was thinking earlier today in my continued deep thoughts that I really do love this new 15-inch retina MacBook Pro that work on me

01:07:08 ◼   ► It's beautiful. It's thinner noticeably thinner. I like that. It's thinner. I like that. It doesn't have an onboard

01:07:16 ◼   ► optical drive I

01:07:18 ◼   ► Kind of wish it had an onboard Ethernet port, but I I can fix that very easily

01:07:23 ◼   ► I know I'm just saying because I mean

01:07:27 ◼   ► Maybe it's low latency for it when he plays quick through arena. He doesn't really want to wait for the

01:07:32 ◼   ► Here we go

01:07:35 ◼   ► No, I actually all kidding aside. I needed to get well, I already had one but I would have needed to get a

01:07:42 ◼   ► Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter for work because the company where I am working does not give

01:07:49 ◼   ► access to the restricted areas of their network except by hardline so

01:07:55 ◼   ► With my Mac I need to get on an Ethernet connection in order to get to the servers that I need in order to develop

01:08:03 ◼   ► the things I need to develop so

01:08:05 ◼   ► Would I have liked to have had an onboard Ethernet port? Hell yeah, but

01:08:10 ◼   ► Would I have chosen that over just bringing the dongle and having a device that's

01:08:15 ◼   ► perfect or nearly perfect in every other measurable way? I'd probably take the dongle. So I don't know,

01:08:22 ◼   ► it's a very tough thing, and this is what makes engineering so beautiful, is that you get to make these tough engineering decisions as to what's

01:08:28 ◼   ► more important. And I agree with you, especially John, that I think every engineering decision that Apple makes, I would expect that they have a

01:08:37 ◼   ► serious amount of regret about every single one, but they're doing the best that they possibly can.

01:08:41 ◼   ► And I think that's the case with all of their devices. And do they have room to do it better? Sure.

01:08:47 ◼   ► Better for me? Absolutely. But better for everyone? I don't know.

01:08:51 ◼   ► That's what I was looking for, or at least what I'm always looking for on the Apple computer, is the time when it all comes together.

01:08:56 ◼   ► When there were no major design compromises that had to be made.

01:09:00 ◼   ► Like, it wasn't like, "We wish we could have made it this thin or this size or had this battery life or this performance of this feature,

01:09:06 ◼   ► but we didn't have enough room or it was too expensive or the parts weren't ready in time or the material we were on to use

01:09:11 ◼   ► Didn't work out or whatever and it's just an all-around

01:09:13 ◼   ► Good computer that's like ahead of its time that lasts for a long time that is sturdy

01:09:18 ◼   ► That's nice-looking that that the looks don't go out of date

01:09:22 ◼   ► Like you're it's same thing with cars for that matter of 9/11 aside when there's the one model when there's the one model

01:09:29 ◼   ► That's like that was the one to get that's where it all came together briefly

01:09:32 ◼   ► even if it all came together like,

01:09:33 ◼   ► oh, the '65 version of that is, you know,

01:09:36 ◼   ► the height of the pre-fuel injection error,

01:09:40 ◼   ► like just the beautiful specimen where it all comes together

01:09:43 ◼   ► and those computers are rare.

01:09:45 ◼   ► Like Macworld did those big, like best Mac ever things

01:09:47 ◼   ► and the SE30 kept coming up,

01:09:49 ◼   ► A, because I picked it and it's the correct answer

01:09:51 ◼   ► and B, because a lot of other people

01:09:52 ◼   ► felt the same way about it

01:09:53 ◼   ► and that obviously modern Macs are so much better

01:09:56 ◼   ► but for that time, it was like,

01:09:58 ◼   ► it was the perfection of that form.

01:09:59 ◼   ► It was, they had perfected that form factor.

01:10:03 ◼   ► The innards of it were the best innards

01:10:04 ◼   ► they could possibly be.

01:10:05 ◼   ► Everything about it was better

01:10:06 ◼   ► than all previous computers of that size.

01:10:09 ◼   ► It lasted a long time.

01:10:10 ◼   ► You could expand it in ways that you didn't expect.

01:10:12 ◼   ► It was sturdy, it was beautiful.

01:10:14 ◼   ► Like it was just, that was a peak.

01:10:16 ◼   ► And I think you can pick out other models that are like that.

01:10:19 ◼   ► The 5K iMac could be like that.

01:10:21 ◼   ► Maybe you could quibble over the Thunderbolt compromise

01:10:24 ◼   ► and say, well, it's like in between the Thunderbolt 3 error

01:10:26 ◼   ► and the USB-C error, so it was a little bit weird.

01:10:28 ◼   ► So maybe it doesn't qualify.

01:10:29 ◼   ► But I'm sure we can pick out ones like to have out the 2008 Mac Pro a pretty damn good

01:10:34 ◼   ► Like it kind of in the middle of the run of the of the cheese graders, you know post Intel, you know

01:10:39 ◼   ► after all the g5 stuff or whatever, but before they started to get kind of long in the tooth and

01:10:43 ◼   ► That's a great computer. That was that was a high point

01:10:47 ◼   ► When we're looking at any other type of device we have to say

01:10:50 ◼   ► Like for the iPhone line, what are the high points in the iPhone line?

01:10:54 ◼   ► I would definitely pick if for industrial design anyway the four but maybe I'm wrong about that because

01:10:59 ◼   ► because I'm not looking at the broken home buttons

01:11:02 ◼   ► and the crappy antenna when you grab the edges of it

01:11:04 ◼   ► and stuff, but industrial design-wise,

01:11:07 ◼   ► ignoring the other parts of the thing.

01:11:08 ◼   ► So maybe that's not the one.

01:11:09 ◼   ► I don't know, what would you guys--

01:11:11 ◼   ► - I'd say the high points were the 3GS and the 5S.

01:11:14 ◼   ► - Eh, maybe.

01:11:15 ◼   ► I mean, everyone's got their own things,

01:11:16 ◼   ► but it depends on what criteria you're choosing from.

01:11:19 ◼   ► And the thing is, for the designers, do they care so much?

01:11:22 ◼   ► Like, oh, the stupid engineer screwed up the home button.

01:11:24 ◼   ► That's not my fault.

01:11:25 ◼   ► The part that I did, my design, I like that sandwich phone.

01:11:28 ◼   ► I really liked, like you said, the 3GS,

01:11:32 ◼   ► I think inside Apple's industrial design

01:11:34 ◼   ► because it just had this big plastic bubble on back.

01:11:35 ◼   ► But anyway.

01:11:36 ◼   ► - But for the time, it was insanely fast,

01:11:41 ◼   ► great innards, huge upgrade from the past one.

01:11:44 ◼   ► It was also very practical.

01:11:45 ◼   ► It had great gripability on that case.

01:11:47 ◼   ► It was durable.

01:11:48 ◼   ► And long term, you could see,

01:11:51 ◼   ► I don't think it really had any major hardware flaws,

01:11:53 ◼   ► whereas the 4 had the antenna issue,

01:11:56 ◼   ► had the bad proximity sensor, and then the 4S had those dying home buttons, and the 5

01:12:02 ◼   ► had the flaky finish, and the 5 also I believe had a sleep/wake button issue, whereas the

01:12:09 ◼   ► 5S I think actually really was pretty rock solid. I don't think anybody really had consistent

01:12:14 ◼   ► hardware problems with the 5S, and I would say the design there was a high point.

01:12:19 ◼   ► That's like, that's your priorities. I would imagine that there's not anyone on

01:12:23 ◼   ► on Apple's industrial design team who would pick the 3GS

01:12:26 ◼   ► as their design high point.

01:12:27 ◼   ► - No, definitely not.

01:12:28 ◼   ► - Because just isolating that part of it.

01:12:30 ◼   ► And so you're like, I don't care that much about the design.

01:12:33 ◼   ► It was nice and it looked nice and it was grippable,

01:12:35 ◼   ► but the point is that it felt good,

01:12:37 ◼   ► it was fat, like all the things that you listed

01:12:38 ◼   ► are the product attributes that you are,

01:12:40 ◼   ► you give a ranking of like, which ones do you prioritize?

01:12:42 ◼   ► And that's why maybe the design people would prioritize

01:12:46 ◼   ► the materials and physical appearance and be like,

01:12:49 ◼   ► well, I had no control over the stuff

01:12:50 ◼   ► they put inside the phone.

01:12:51 ◼   ► So if they screwed that part up, it's not my fault.

01:12:54 ◼   ► And I feel like the pinnacle was

01:12:55 ◼   ► whatever their favorite design is.

01:12:56 ◼   ► And the flaking finish even,

01:12:58 ◼   ► you could even see someone would be like,

01:12:59 ◼   ► "Well, flaking finish, that's not really my problem."

01:13:02 ◼   ► They probably wouldn't say this,

01:13:03 ◼   ► 'cause that's what designers know this is their problem too.

01:13:05 ◼   ► But they say, "It looked perfect when it was new,

01:13:07 ◼   ► just don't touch it, don't even look at it."

01:13:10 ◼   ► It can't be played, I can't do the accent.

01:13:12 ◼   ► But Mike has seen that movie now,

01:13:14 ◼   ► I'm finally listening to Mike at the movies

01:13:15 ◼   ► and I realize all these movies now,

01:13:16 ◼   ► Mike is seeing them in case he's not.

01:13:19 ◼   ► - Like which one?

01:13:20 ◼   ► - Well, this was Spinal Tap.

01:13:21 ◼   ► You didn't expect that one with it, did you?

01:13:22 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, nope, definitely not.

01:13:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, anyway, Marco, I'd give it up.

01:13:26 ◼   ► - Yeah, you know I haven't seen anything.

01:13:29 ◼   ► - Anyway, the point is we should all be kings

01:13:32 ◼   ► of our own companies with the resources of Apple,

01:13:33 ◼   ► and then we can make exactly the products we want

01:13:35 ◼   ► until we find out that we can't get what we want either,

01:13:37 ◼   ► because the materials aren't available,

01:13:39 ◼   ► or the chips cost too much,

01:13:40 ◼   ► or Intel's not ready or whatever.

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01:16:12 ◼   ► - Alright, what is Facebook battery?

01:16:16 ◼   ► - Alright, so actually I think Viticci's been one

01:16:19 ◼   ► of the leading investigators on this, right?

01:16:21 ◼   ► - Oh, you're talking about the ridiculous battery usage?

01:16:23 ◼   ► - Yeah, like so-- - Ah, gotcha.

01:16:25 ◼   ► - So everyone's, I mean, I think people have known

01:16:28 ◼   ► for a while that the Facebook app

01:16:30 ◼   ► is incredibly battery inefficient,

01:16:32 ◼   ► but nobody really had a great idea of why or how

01:16:35 ◼   ► that was that way, and a few things changed in iOS 9.

01:16:40 ◼   ► One of the biggest things that changed is that the iOS 9

01:16:43 ◼   ► battery shaming menu or screen in settings,

01:16:48 ◼   ► it now will tell you how many hours things were on screen

01:16:51 ◼   ► and how many hours they were in the background.

01:16:53 ◼   ► It'll also tell you what they were doing in the background.

01:16:55 ◼   ► So it'll say things like audio or network or whatever.

01:16:59 ◼   ► So it'll tell you what it was doing, background refresh,

01:17:02 ◼   ► what it was doing in the background.

01:17:04 ◼   ► People have been noticing that the Facebook app

01:17:06 ◼   ► is somehow being woken up really for a very long time

01:17:11 ◼   ► for background usage, even when these people

01:17:12 ◼   ► are not using the app.

01:17:13 ◼   ► So they'll have like one guy had the app was open

01:17:17 ◼   ► for two minutes, was in the background for like seven hours

01:17:20 ◼   ► or something like that, and used up a ton of his battery.

01:17:23 ◼   ► Some crazy difference like that.

01:17:25 ◼   ► And more importantly what people are finding,

01:17:27 ◼   ► even if they disable background app refresh,

01:17:30 ◼   ► it was still finding ways to run in the background,

01:17:33 ◼   ► and in some cases use even more battery,

01:17:36 ◼   ► often by doing really, really sleazy tricks.

01:17:40 ◼   ► So do you remember, back forever ago,

01:17:43 ◼   ► in like, I don't know, 2009, 2010, something like that,

01:17:46 ◼   ► forever ago, before you could do much

01:17:49 ◼   ► in the background of iOS, one of the things you could do

01:17:52 ◼   ► was if you were, the very first backgrounding modes

01:17:55 ◼   ► in iOS 4, whenever that came out,

01:17:56 ◼   ► one of the very first things you could do

01:17:58 ◼   ► was you could play audio.

01:18:00 ◼   ► So if you're an audio player, like if you were a podcast app

01:18:02 ◼   ► or if you're a streaming music service,

01:18:05 ◼   ► That was one of the things that you could run indefinitely

01:18:07 ◼   ► if you're playing audio.

01:18:08 ◼   ► And so one of the very first things that somebody,

01:18:11 ◼   ► I forget who it was, was it Tapots that made,

01:18:14 ◼   ► was it Payspot that did this?

01:18:16 ◼   ► - They played silence the whole time.

01:18:18 ◼   ► - Yes, so yeah, they submitted an app

01:18:21 ◼   ► that through this clever hack, you could run indefinitely

01:18:25 ◼   ► if you were playing audio.

01:18:27 ◼   ► And so they figured out that if you just played silence,

01:18:30 ◼   ► like if you're evoking the audio buffer,

01:18:32 ◼   ► but you're just sending it all silence in the buffer.

01:18:35 ◼   ► Your app can run indefinitely.

01:18:36 ◼   ► And so they were using this to do clipboard history

01:18:38 ◼   ► management and clipboard sharing between computers

01:18:40 ◼   ► and everything.

01:18:41 ◼   ► And Apple very quickly figured out what they were doing

01:18:46 ◼   ► and banned them from doing this.

01:18:47 ◼   ► Facebook is now doing that same trick in 2015,

01:18:51 ◼   ► and Apple's permitting it.

01:18:53 ◼   ► So we'll see what happens.

01:18:54 ◼   ► Oh, is that what it's come down to?

01:18:56 ◼   ► I didn't realize we figured it out.

01:18:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:18:58 ◼   ► So people have done some investigation.

01:19:00 ◼   ► and Facebook is using background audio to play silence to stay running as long as possible.

01:19:06 ◼   ► And among other tricks. And so, I can explain at least one thing. So first of all, I've

01:19:12 ◼   ► had so many people report bugs to me in Overcast that sound really weird about like not playing

01:19:17 ◼   ► in the background after they've launched Facebook or something and now I'm suspecting this might

01:19:20 ◼   ► be related to Facebook's stupid activity. But also, people have wondered, you know,

01:19:27 ◼   ► If I block you with background refresh, and I, like if I disable background refresh for

01:19:32 ◼   ► your app, and I've, you know, quote, force quit your app by, you know, removing it from

01:19:35 ◼   ► the multi-tasking switcher, how do you still run in the background?

01:19:39 ◼   ► And I can answer this question.

01:19:40 ◼   ► Back when Newsstand was unveiled, one of the cool new things Newsstand apps could do was

01:19:45 ◼   ► called a content available push notification.

01:19:47 ◼   ► Now normally, if you run a web service and you want to like send something to all the

01:19:52 ◼   ► iPhone people that are using your app, you could send notifications, but previously to

01:19:56 ◼   ► Notifications had to be visible on screen.

01:19:58 ◼   ► You couldn't just send an app, like an empty notification,

01:20:02 ◼   ► to have it just start running and download new stuff.

01:20:04 ◼   ► You couldn't do that before.

01:20:06 ◼   ► You could send it an alert, and it would show,

01:20:08 ◼   ► like, you know, the box and the text,

01:20:10 ◼   ► and the user could then say, you know, okay, enter the app,

01:20:13 ◼   ► and then it would launch.

01:20:14 ◼   ► But all that was user controlled,

01:20:16 ◼   ► and so you couldn't be doing it behind the user's back,

01:20:18 ◼   ► and you had to have the user interacting with it

01:20:20 ◼   ► to actually get launched again in the background.

01:20:22 ◼   ► With Newsstand, they added this new thing

01:20:24 ◼   ► called content available pushes,

01:20:25 ◼   ► where for a while it was only newsstand apps could do this.

01:20:28 ◼   ► They could be woken up remotely by their servers.

01:20:32 ◼   ► You as the service owner could wake up

01:20:34 ◼   ► all the instances of your app

01:20:35 ◼   ► by sending this special push notification that was silent.

01:20:39 ◼   ► It did not show anything to the user.

01:20:42 ◼   ► And the way they initially,

01:20:44 ◼   ► so first it was just on newsstand.

01:20:46 ◼   ► And then I think it was iOS 7

01:20:48 ◼   ► that made content available push notifications

01:20:50 ◼   ► available to all apps.

01:20:52 ◼   ► You could be waking up your app all the time.

01:20:54 ◼   ► And so initially Apple would throttle these things

01:20:56 ◼   ► and it would only allow it to wake up the app once a day

01:21:00 ◼   ► or only when it was plugged in or something.

01:21:02 ◼   ► And over time those restrictions have gotten loosened.

01:21:05 ◼   ► And in 8, you could wake up your app pretty frequently

01:21:08 ◼   ► if you really wanted to with content available.

01:21:09 ◼   ► It was pretty reliable, you could usually wake your app up.

01:21:12 ◼   ► But if the user quit you out of the multitasking switcher,

01:21:16 ◼   ► so if they force quit your app,

01:21:19 ◼   ► you wouldn't get those anymore.

01:21:21 ◼   ► And in iOS 9, they changed that.

01:21:23 ◼   ► In iOS 9, even if background refresh is off,

01:21:27 ◼   ► 'cause background refresh is a separate thing,

01:21:29 ◼   ► background refresh is the system

01:21:31 ◼   ► of periodically waking up the app to do something,

01:21:34 ◼   ► and the user can control that.

01:21:36 ◼   ► However, there is no system control

01:21:40 ◼   ► for whether to allow an app to receive

01:21:42 ◼   ► content-available silent push notifications.

01:21:45 ◼   ► And I think, I haven't tested this with the Facebook app,

01:21:49 ◼   ► because I don't have it installed, because I'm not insane.

01:21:51 ◼   ► Sorry, Facebook people.

01:21:52 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:21:53 ◼   ► No, I don't use Facebook enough to use their app,

01:21:55 ◼   ► but I recognize that it's very popular.

01:21:57 ◼   ► Different viewpoints, anyway.

01:21:58 ◼   ► So I don't know, I would like,

01:22:02 ◼   ► I'm curious to know if Facebook people can test this

01:22:04 ◼   ► who are experiencing these battery problems,

01:22:05 ◼   ► 'cause people are saying, I disabled background refresh,

01:22:08 ◼   ► but it's still doing all this stuff in the background.

01:22:10 ◼   ► Try disabling all notifications, because,

01:22:14 ◼   ► so anyway, in eight, if you force quit it,

01:22:16 ◼   ► those content available silent pushes would not come through.

01:22:20 ◼   ► In nine, they still come through.

01:22:22 ◼   ► So in 9, even if you have quote, force quit my app,

01:22:25 ◼   ► if I send content available from my server to your phone

01:22:29 ◼   ► and you've enabled notifications,

01:22:31 ◼   ► my app will wake up in the background

01:22:32 ◼   ► and I can start doing something.

01:22:34 ◼   ► I can start a background download,

01:22:35 ◼   ► I can start playing silent audio forever,

01:22:37 ◼   ► you know, like Facebook does.

01:22:39 ◼   ► So I'm curious if disabling notifications

01:22:43 ◼   ► entirely is the fix.

01:22:44 ◼   ► - You mean disabling them entirely on the entire phone

01:22:46 ◼   ► or just for the Facebook app?

01:22:48 ◼   ► - Just for the app, but like, you know,

01:22:49 ◼   ► 'cause there's like, in each app,

01:22:50 ◼   ► there's the notifications area

01:22:51 ◼   ► And then there's this big magic switch up top,

01:22:54 ◼   ► allowed notifications.

01:22:55 ◼   ► And then there's the more granular stuff,

01:22:57 ◼   ► show notification center, badge the app icon,

01:22:59 ◼   ► what shape should they be.

01:23:00 ◼   ► But if you turn that off for Facebook,

01:23:03 ◼   ► I wonder if then it won't get these notifications.

01:23:06 ◼   ► But anyway, so that's what they're doing, it seems.

01:23:10 ◼   ► And they issued some kind of weird response,

01:23:12 ◼   ► you know, just like the Volkswagen thing.

01:23:14 ◼   ► Well, must have been some bug or rogue engineer,

01:23:16 ◼   ► you know, some BS.

01:23:17 ◼   ► But the reality is this is a disgusting company

01:23:19 ◼   ► and they do lots of unethical things.

01:23:21 ◼   ► and this is just one thing.

01:23:22 ◼   ► They're doing it because they can't,

01:23:24 ◼   ► this is not the kind of thing that you program accidentally.

01:23:27 ◼   ► They're doing it because they can,

01:23:28 ◼   ► and what's Apple gonna do, reject the Facebook app?

01:23:31 ◼   ► Like, this is kind of, they can't really do that much for it

01:23:36 ◼   ► and I think it's unfortunate,

01:23:39 ◼   ► but that's just the power dynamic.

01:23:41 ◼   ► This is also from the talk show.

01:23:44 ◼   ► The Facebook app is most likely the most popular

01:23:47 ◼   ► third-party app on iOS by a long shot.

01:23:50 ◼   ► My guess is it's number one, YouTube is number two,

01:23:52 ◼   ► but you can't exactly tell Facebook,

01:23:56 ◼   ► you know, you can't do this anymore.

01:23:59 ◼   ► You know, like, how much power do they have?

01:24:01 ◼   ► I mean, I kinda wish they would exert that power

01:24:03 ◼   ► a little bit more here, but they might not

01:24:06 ◼   ► really be able to, but I don't know.

01:24:08 ◼   ► Either way, this is, if you are a Facebook user,

01:24:12 ◼   ► you should not be surprised by this.

01:24:14 ◼   ► You should be mad, but you should not be surprised.

01:24:17 ◼   ► And this is just what Facebook does,

01:24:18 ◼   ► And it's, you know, it's disgusting.

01:24:21 ◼   ► - Yeah, I don't really have anything to add about this.

01:24:23 ◼   ► I don't use the regular Facebook app

01:24:25 ◼   ► because around the time,

01:24:27 ◼   ► this is probably a year ago now,

01:24:29 ◼   ► but around the time the Facebook Messenger became a thing,

01:24:32 ◼   ► they eventually took the ability to send

01:24:36 ◼   ► and receive messages out of the standard Facebook app.

01:24:41 ◼   ► But they would still send you a push notification.

01:24:44 ◼   ► They still had the entry point to the messages section

01:24:48 ◼   ► in the app, so it was like a tab or something like that.

01:24:52 ◼   ► But you would get there and they would say,

01:24:53 ◼   ► "Oh no, we've moved this to a new app.

01:24:56 ◼   ► "You have to go get that other app.

01:24:57 ◼   ► "Oh, it's so sad, this is stinky."

01:25:00 ◼   ► But I refused to go get that other app

01:25:02 ◼   ► because I almost never send or receive Facebook messages.

01:25:06 ◼   ► Eventually, I got sick of this

01:25:08 ◼   ► and I got sick of the Facebook app

01:25:10 ◼   ► and so I downloaded Facebook Paper,

01:25:11 ◼   ► one of the 85 things named Paper

01:25:13 ◼   ► that is in our little world.

01:25:16 ◼   ► And that allows you to send and receive messages,

01:25:18 ◼   ► and so that's what I use if I'm using anything

01:25:20 ◼   ► with Facebook on my phone.

01:25:22 ◼   ► And it's fine, I mean it's pretty,

01:25:25 ◼   ► but otherwise unremarkable.

01:25:28 ◼   ► And that was basically it for me.

01:25:30 ◼   ► However, Erin does use the normal Facebook app.

01:25:34 ◼   ► And the other day, I noticed when I was looking

01:25:37 ◼   ► at battery usage that it looked really high,

01:25:39 ◼   ► but I didn't think much of it because I didn't know

01:25:41 ◼   ► if perhaps she had been using Facebook all day or something.

01:25:44 ◼   ► And then it was just a day or two later that all this kerfuffle started about battery usage,

01:25:49 ◼   ► and I really wish I had paid close attention to it.

01:25:52 ◼   ► But I have been intending to keep closer track of the app's usage, and I did turn off, like,

01:26:00 ◼   ► background updates and all the things that you guys described, and I suspect, and I think

01:26:06 ◼   ► that's exactly what you said, Marco, that it's still getting used a lot for seemingly

01:26:11 ◼   ► no reason.

01:26:12 ◼   ► And that's just gross.

01:26:14 ◼   ► Just because you can doesn't mean you should, kids.

01:26:18 ◼   ► And yet, when you're a company as big and powerful as Facebook, when you likely have

01:26:23 ◼   ► the most popular third-party app on the platform, you can get away with this.

01:26:28 ◼   ► And it's also, it's kind of too bad that Apple allows it.

01:26:31 ◼   ► That they should have reacted in some way, shape, or form publicly in the sense that

01:26:38 ◼   ► maybe they should have pulled the app, or not like disabled it on existing devices,

01:26:42 ◼   ► but maybe you can't download it from the app store

01:26:44 ◼   ► or something and maybe, I don't know,

01:26:47 ◼   ► maybe I'm being ridiculous, but I feel like it's just,

01:26:49 ◼   ► it's stinky that the big powerful people

01:26:51 ◼   ► get away with things that the little guys can't.

01:26:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, my question is what benefit does Facebook

01:26:58 ◼   ► think this provides them?

01:27:00 ◼   ► Like just ignore everything else about it.

01:27:01 ◼   ► There's Facebook, I assume Facebook does this on purpose

01:27:04 ◼   ► because they want it.

01:27:06 ◼   ► Why do they want this?

01:27:07 ◼   ► Like wouldn't you think it would be bad?

01:27:09 ◼   ► Like what does their app need to do all the time?

01:27:11 ◼   ► Like what?

01:27:12 ◼   ► - Gather data.

01:27:13 ◼   ► - Seriously. - About what?

01:27:15 ◼   ► About like where they're getting location data

01:27:18 ◼   ► from the phone?

01:27:18 ◼   ► I'm just wondering.

01:27:19 ◼   ► - 'Cause they might be.

01:27:20 ◼   ► - 'Cause I don't think there's that much,

01:27:21 ◼   ► like if the Facebook app just said,

01:27:24 ◼   ► I don't know what the interval is,

01:27:25 ◼   ► but like wake me up every 15 minutes to get updates,

01:27:28 ◼   ► or is it the immediacy of being able,

01:27:30 ◼   ► like I'm always running,

01:27:31 ◼   ► so as soon as something happens to Facebook,

01:27:33 ◼   ► people know right away instead of having to wait

01:27:35 ◼   ► for a background refresh interval,

01:27:37 ◼   ► or something like that,

01:27:37 ◼   ► because Facebook must also know the downside,

01:27:40 ◼   ► which is that you're going to run people's batteries down

01:27:43 ◼   ► more.

01:27:44 ◼   ► And I don't know if they just assume, well, they'll

01:27:47 ◼   ► find a charger somewhere because they're not going to go

01:27:48 ◼   ► without their Facebook updates.

01:27:50 ◼   ► Or they'll use their phone less.

01:27:52 ◼   ► You would think if you had an app, what you'd be trying

01:27:54 ◼   ► to get-- maybe you're right, Casey.

01:27:56 ◼   ► The thing is, we don't want your engagement or interaction

01:27:58 ◼   ► with the app.

01:27:59 ◼   ► We just want your information.

01:27:59 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:28:00 ◼   ► I'm just trying to understand from their perspective

01:28:02 ◼   ► how it makes sense to try to have your app be

01:28:06 ◼   ► running all the time.

01:28:07 ◼   ► So to put things in perspective, just today,

01:28:09 ◼   ► was at the dentist's office and the the dentist nurse we were talking waiting

01:28:14 ◼   ► for the dentist to come in and she I don't remember how we got on the subject

01:28:18 ◼   ► but she said to me oh yeah the other day I went to that place I believe she said

01:28:23 ◼   ► she was talking about Facebook it I might get this can I might be getting

01:28:26 ◼   ► this confused with Google but I went to this place on Facebook where it can

01:28:29 ◼   ► where it'll show you like all the stuff it knows about you and all the places

01:28:32 ◼   ► you've been and it was super creepy because it knew everywhere I had been

01:28:37 ◼   ► And so, granted this is one data point, completely anecdotally from a person who just ten minutes

01:28:43 ◼   ► before told me she was completely inept when it comes to computers, but this conversation

01:28:50 ◼   ► happened completely naturally.

01:28:51 ◼   ► I didn't prompt it, I didn't interrogate her.

01:28:53 ◼   ► She said to me, "Oh yeah, it's so creepy what they know.

01:28:57 ◼   ► That's so weird."

01:28:58 ◼   ► So I suspect it is just data gathering.

01:29:02 ◼   ► Maybe there's non-nefarious purposes as well, like when you start the app you want it to

01:29:05 ◼   ► to be totally refreshed, blah, blah, blah,

01:29:08 ◼   ► but I think mostly it's for data gathering.

01:29:10 ◼   ► - I mean, it's probably all of these things.

01:29:12 ◼   ► It is probably, if they do any kind of continuous location

01:29:16 ◼   ► or periodic location monitoring, I'm sure it's for that.

01:29:19 ◼   ► I'm sure it's if they're doing any kind of analytics

01:29:22 ◼   ► of what kind of phone you have, whatever it is,

01:29:25 ◼   ► there are things they can measure.

01:29:26 ◼   ► I'm guessing it's probably a little bit about location

01:29:29 ◼   ► and it is almost certainly, what John said,

01:29:32 ◼   ► it's almost certainly about engagement.

01:29:34 ◼   ► It is about, I'm sure that having your app

01:29:38 ◼   ► running in the background, being able to get data

01:29:40 ◼   ► immediately from your server, being able to start

01:29:44 ◼   ► downloading things, like to start caching things,

01:29:46 ◼   ► to start preloading things, things that you're gonna

01:29:49 ◼   ► be looking at, I'm sure it's for all those reasons.

01:29:52 ◼   ► And I'm sure the overall reason is,

01:29:55 ◼   ► data gathering is probably part of it,

01:29:56 ◼   ► and the other thing is just engagement.

01:29:58 ◼   ► Because if they can increase the amount of time,

01:30:01 ◼   ► if they're basically always running,

01:30:03 ◼   ► or running as much as they possibly can,

01:30:05 ◼   ► then they can get you notifications faster,

01:30:09 ◼   ► they can get you data faster,

01:30:10 ◼   ► they can get you new stuff downloading faster,

01:30:12 ◼   ► and it's all about reducing the friction

01:30:14 ◼   ► so that not only can they bother you as often as possible

01:30:17 ◼   ► to come back to the app, but also that when you are there,

01:30:20 ◼   ► there's no delay in loading anything.

01:30:23 ◼   ► 'Cause they've measured that both people like that,

01:30:25 ◼   ► and also it increases our numbers.

01:30:27 ◼   ► It makes us X per year of more engagement

01:30:30 ◼   ► and more growth hacking or whatever.

01:30:32 ◼   ► That's why, you know, there's plenty of reasons

01:30:35 ◼   ► why they want to do this.

01:30:36 ◼   ► Those are the two big ones.

01:30:37 ◼   ► - Yeah, it makes me wonder if like there was a setting

01:30:39 ◼   ► in the app that said, should we try to run in the background

01:30:42 ◼   ► even when every setting you're telling us is like basically

01:30:45 ◼   ► to let the users choose which behavior they want to be.

01:30:48 ◼   ► That would be an interesting choice.

01:30:49 ◼   ► 'Cause like, you know, if they didn't do this,

01:30:50 ◼   ► when you launch the Facebook app,

01:30:52 ◼   ► less stuff would be loaded, presumably.

01:30:53 ◼   ► I'm assuming that they're taking, like you said,

01:30:55 ◼   ► taking advantage of that.

01:30:56 ◼   ► Which user experience would people prefer?

01:30:58 ◼   ► Would they prefer that when you launch the Facebook app,

01:31:00 ◼   ► it's like up to date and most of the stuff is loaded,

01:31:02 ◼   ► would you prefer it that as soon as your friend