138: Only Microsoft


00:00:00   So I went and cleared out everything that was obviously outdated.

00:00:03   We had, of course, like bullet points on speculation about what TV kit might be,

00:00:10   and rumors of the new Apple TV remote.

00:00:13   We should talk about that. We'd be, we'd get those predictions right.

00:00:16   In the realm of follow-up, we have more follow-up about the TiVo that neither Marco nor I cares about.

00:00:24   Oh, you care. You need to care.

00:00:26   need to care. Actually, there's one item about the TiVo that's not in the follow-up that

00:00:29   I want to briefly mention. So since last week, I think more people have either followed our

00:00:34   links to the TiVo bolts or seen people tweeting about it or, you know, it's made the rounds

00:00:38   in the tech news sites and stuff. And people have looked at it and listened to my comments

00:00:42   about how I can't believe that they made a thing that you can't stack something on top

00:00:45   of. And a lot of people have responded with other TV-connected devices that are un-stackable

00:00:50   in various ways. One of the ones that came up a lot was the Boxee Box. Do you guys remember

00:00:54   that?

00:00:55   It basically looked like a cube tilted on its corner and then set down into the table.

00:01:01   So it was sort of a cube on an angle.

00:01:04   It wasn't actually a cube they chopped off part of it.

00:01:07   Anyway, clearly nothing can go on top of it, because if it was a cube just resting normally

00:01:11   on the table, it would work fine, but it's tilted and then the corners are chopped off.

00:01:14   That's ridiculous.

00:01:16   The reason I think the TiVo Bolt is worse than the Boxee Box and those other things

00:01:20   is that the TiVo Bolt, like I said in the show, it's like thumbing its nose at you.

00:01:24   so close to being just a flat box. But they said, "You know what? Eh, screw you. We're

00:01:30   bending it." It's not a, you know, because the Boxee Box, I give it a pass. It's like,

00:01:34   "Oh, they're making a little piece of art. It's like a sculpture." It's like, it's not

00:01:37   even close to it. It is clearly never going to be something you can stack. Also, it's

00:01:41   not wider. The Boxee Box is a plain old normal proportion box that you put under a TV in

00:01:47   terms of like, it's around the size of a regular TiVo. It's around the size of like a Blu-ray

00:01:50   player or a game console or anything like that, it's exactly flat on all sides and then

00:01:55   they just bent it.

00:01:56   And that, I feel, is just the worst.

00:02:01   And then one other item that's not here, people have already started opening the thing up

00:02:04   and figuring out if they can upgrade the little 2.5 inch drive to whatever the max capacity

00:02:08   2.5 inch drives they have, and apparently that's successful.

00:02:11   So if people are buying this, even though again this is not the high-end TiVo and the

00:02:15   TiVo folks themselves have had a series of Q&As and stuff where they've re-emphasized,

00:02:20   that you know this wasn't a question like we said in the last show this is

00:02:22   not the pro product they still sell a pro product that is has more features

00:02:26   and more storage and more tuners and everything and they said don't worry you

00:02:29   know eventually we will come out with the pro model whether the pro model will

00:02:33   also be bent will it even be called the bolt we don't know they just basically

00:02:36   said this product is not for you people who want the highest end TiVo this is

00:02:42   and they were pretty candid I wish I could find this Q&A I go did we link it

00:02:46   last week maybe we didn't anyway the guy who was talking was from TiVo was

00:02:49   basically saying, look, he's talking to a bunch of very enthusiastic TiVo fans,

00:02:53   like, and saying, I know you guys don't want this because it doesn't have lots

00:02:56   of storage and it's not big and fancy and has fewer tuners and it's like

00:02:59   basically a downgrade from the one you have now. This is not for you, but

00:03:02   basically if we just continue to make products for you, we would go out of

00:03:05   business. We need to make a low-end product that is distinctive and

00:03:10   appealing. He was also basically defending the crazy shape, saying that's

00:03:14   what we have to do to stay in business. We have to find a way to sell something

00:03:17   to people who otherwise wouldn't buy TiVo.

00:03:19   There are not enough people like me

00:03:21   who want the high-end TiVo to keep us in business.

00:03:23   I think he said something like they got 150,000

00:03:25   new customers last year, as in people

00:03:27   who hadn't previously owned TiVos,

00:03:28   like new TiVo customers, and that's just not enough.

00:03:32   So what they're trying to do is make a cheap product

00:03:36   that will stand out, that people will notice it.

00:03:38   They're like, "Oh, it's that crazy bent thing that's white."

00:03:40   I mean, I don't know if that's noticing in a good way

00:03:42   or a bad way, but hey, it's noticing.

00:03:44   and have it be an actual good product.

00:03:47   Like have features, have interesting features,

00:03:49   be faster, be more responsive, all that good stuff.

00:03:51   Have the automatic commercial skipping and everything.

00:03:54   So this is one of their many ploys to stay in business.

00:03:58   It's sad that the high end customers can't sustain them

00:04:01   as a company.

00:04:01   I'm not quite sure what their expenses are.

00:04:03   It's not like they're Netflix

00:04:04   for their licensing content or something.

00:04:06   They're just making basically a little computer

00:04:08   that you attach to your TV.

00:04:10   Anyway.

00:04:11   - And making hardware is easy.

00:04:12   - Well, it's not the same as like,

00:04:13   What is your burn rate?

00:04:14   How many employees do you need?

00:04:16   And especially if you've been doing it for many, many years,

00:04:19   I guess just 150,000 is just not enough sales

00:04:21   and you just need to sell more of them.

00:04:23   So I want TiVo to stay in business.

00:04:24   So I guess everyone should wait for them

00:04:27   to come out with the high-end TiVo

00:04:28   and then buy the most expensive one

00:04:30   and then throw it in the garbage, whatever.

00:04:32   (laughs)

00:04:33   Want them to stay in business.

00:04:35   So anyway, the actual follow-up that was in here

00:04:37   is the question from last week.

00:04:39   What kind of TiVo Bolt features

00:04:41   could possibly come through a software update to existing TiVo owners, to the Romeo models,

00:04:48   which is the old high-end one.

00:04:50   And someone from TiVo, who's @tivodesign on Twitter, said "Quick Mode," which is a thing

00:04:54   that's like Smart Speed where you watch 30% faster, and "Channel Logos and the Guide"

00:04:59   are two items that are coming through a software update.

00:05:02   Not mentioned is the thing that skips commercials, which is totally technically possible to bring

00:05:05   to the other ones.

00:05:06   Quick Mode was the one I had a question about, and apparently that's coming.

00:05:09   It didn't mention the commercial skipping and that could just be like, "Oh, we're

00:05:12   going to save that for the other models to make you upgrade," which, whatever, I'm

00:05:15   fine.

00:05:16   If they come out with the new high-end TiVo, I will probably buy it.

00:05:19   History has shown that I will probably buy it.

00:05:22   So I think that's it for the Bolt.

00:05:24   We should note that Jeremy Clarkson has tweeted today, which in and of itself is unremarkable,

00:05:29   but he has tweeted, "With a skeleton crew filming for Amazon Prime's new motoring

00:05:33   program spelled incorrectly has begun."

00:05:37   And it has a shot of, what are these cars?

00:05:39   This is a LaFerrari, a McLaren--

00:05:42   - P1.

00:05:43   - Thank you, the P1 and whatever the Ferrari du jour

00:05:46   of the hour is.

00:05:47   - No, it's a Porsche, it's the 918.

00:05:49   - Oh, that's the, oh, that's the 918?

00:05:50   Oh, it looks like a-- - Come on, come on.

00:05:52   You've been away from the show,

00:05:53   you can't even identify.

00:05:55   This is, as I tweeted, this is the,

00:05:57   when are they gonna get to the fireworks factory?

00:05:58   Because in the last, in the sad last season of Top Gear,

00:06:02   they were like, oh, finally, when the LaFerrari comes out,

00:06:05   we're gonna test it, we're gonna test all these,

00:06:07   these hybrid supercars or whatever, are they all hybrid?

00:06:10   I forget if the P1 is hybrid, maybe not.

00:06:12   Anyway, we're gonna test all these top-end supercars

00:06:14   against each other because they tested the 918 on its own,

00:06:18   they tested the P1 on its own, and a lot of Ferrari came out

00:06:20   and they tested it on its own, and now we're gonna have

00:06:22   these guys do a shootout.

00:06:23   And the very last episode where they were all together,

00:06:25   they were like, oh, the manufacturers wouldn't let us

00:06:27   race them against each other, so sorry, guys.

00:06:31   We're working on it, but right now, they're all big babies

00:06:33   because they're all afraid their car's gonna lose,

00:06:35   so they don't want them to race each other.

00:06:36   trying to work something out. And eventually it's like, "Oh, we've worked something out.

00:06:39   They've all agreed to race under whatever conditions." And then Clarkson went and punched

00:06:43   somebody and the show was over.

00:06:44   That's absolutely right.

00:06:46   Pretty good summary. So I was like, "When are they going to get to the fireworks factory?"

00:06:49   They kept teasing, "I want to see that showdown between those three cars. That's exactly what

00:06:53   I want to see." So I am super excited that this Amazon show, the first picture they show

00:06:57   is, "Guess what? We got those three cars. Presumably we're going to race them against

00:07:00   each other."

00:07:01   The other follow-up we had is this big kerfuffle that's been going around, particularly as

00:07:06   we record on Wednesday, with regard to battery life for the two different A9s. Apparently

00:07:14   both Samsung and TSMC, what does that stand for? Taiwan Semiconductor? Something like

00:07:20   that. Apparently both of them are fabbing the A9 and apparently one of them is, one

00:07:28   One of these things is not like the other, you could say.

00:07:31   So Marco, you were talking about this earlier today.

00:07:33   Would you like to fill us in on some of the details?

00:07:35   - Well, unfortunately, we don't know a lot yet.

00:07:37   It might not be a story, but it might be a story.

00:07:40   And at the time we record this on Wednesday night,

00:07:43   it's way too early to say whether there's anything here

00:07:46   or whether this is just a couple of people

00:07:47   getting weird test results.

00:07:50   The gist of it is, so we know for sure

00:07:53   that the A9 chip in the iPhone 6, as you mentioned,

00:07:56   is being fabbed by two companies, TSMC and Samsung.

00:07:59   And they have two different manufacturing processes

00:08:03   at those two companies.

00:08:04   The Samsung one is actually the smaller feature size.

00:08:07   Samsung is 14 nanometer, TSMC is 16.

00:08:10   So normally you would expect the smaller feature size one

00:08:13   being Samsung to have better battery life

00:08:16   'cause it uses less power.

00:08:17   - Well, not in the days of leakage current dominating

00:08:19   because now it's not, like, that used to be true,

00:08:22   but then once the leakage current became a thing,

00:08:23   it kind of kept on because what people would do is like,

00:08:25   I can't even make like a 22 nanometer chip until I solve this leakage current problem

00:08:30   so they would solve that by using like high K dielectric or whatever, you know things that they're doing and

00:08:34   Then it would shrink and you would get lower power and it's like yay

00:08:38   Everything's following along but really the only reason you got less power is because they figured out the leakage thing

00:08:42   And so as we get smaller and smaller, it's like oh we got that problem again. We got all this leakage

00:08:46   How what are we gonna do? So you're right that in the old thinking in like the you know, 45 nanometers 65 nanometer thinking

00:08:53   shrinking is better, but now the size is right now,

00:08:56   shrinking is not necessarily better

00:08:58   unless you know the intimate details of the geometry

00:09:01   and materials of their actual transistors.

00:09:03   - Right, so anyway, the gist is there's a couple of people,

00:09:07   and again, the test size here is really small,

00:09:09   but there's a couple of people who are getting results

00:09:12   that indicate that the TSMC manufactured one,

00:09:16   which is actually the larger feature size,

00:09:17   but as John just explained,

00:09:18   it doesn't really matter as much anymore.

00:09:21   basically the TSMC manufactured A9s are yielding

00:09:25   substantially better battery life than the Samsung ones.

00:09:28   The test so far suggests that it might be as much as

00:09:31   like 20, 25% more battery life.

00:09:33   - Well, do you know, let's put a qualifier on that

00:09:35   because here's my first question about these things.

00:09:37   Are they yielding better battery life

00:09:40   or are they yielding better Geekbench battery scores?

00:09:43   Because I'm not entirely convinced that there isn't

00:09:45   something about the Geekbench battery test

00:09:48   that behaves differently on one thing than the other.

00:09:51   Like, you know, like if this is our only metric,

00:09:53   like you said, it's a small number of people.

00:09:55   It's like, you know, a few dozen people.

00:09:57   And if they're all running the Geekbench battery test,

00:10:00   I don't know what else you do to test battery life.

00:10:02   Like you need to have to do something.

00:10:03   You can't just have anecdotal,

00:10:04   like I use my phone for a day

00:10:05   and it seemed like it was slower.

00:10:06   But if they're all using the same test

00:10:08   and it's a low number, I don't know yet.

00:10:10   Like I'm trying to think of like,

00:10:12   what could it be about the Geekbench test

00:10:14   that would care who manufactured the CPU?

00:10:17   Are they different in ways other than the size of the features and the materials and

00:10:22   geometry of the individual transistors?

00:10:23   Are they different in, like if we were to look at the layout of the chips, are they

00:10:27   different in that way too?

00:10:28   Maybe they are.

00:10:29   Do they have different instructions?

00:10:31   They have different cache sizes?

00:10:34   We don't know anything about them, so there's too many questions here.

00:10:37   But the most compelling thing I think we have is that thing that, who is it that tweeted

00:10:41   this?

00:10:42   pool-tweeted graphs of the Geekbench scores for the different phones.

00:10:48   And it's not labeled which ones have which CPU, but you can see two humps in the iPhone

00:10:53   6s one and one hump in the iPhone 6 one.

00:10:55   Of course, the iPhone 6 one has a tremendous number of trials.

00:10:57   Right, it was something like 20 or 30 times as many.

00:11:00   Right, but still, with the small number of trials, it clearly shows two humps instead

00:11:05   of one.

00:11:06   So in the coming days and weeks, we'll figure this out.

00:11:08   Yeah.

00:11:09   curious to see and you can tell which one you have. There's an app called Lyrum Info,

00:11:15   like we put in the show notes. If you launch this, it's obviously made to dump a bunch

00:11:20   of technical info. It shows the model number on the first screen and for the 6S, it's

00:11:28   N71 AP and then if you have the "good one", it's N71 M AP. There's a little lower case

00:11:35   and the middle model number.

00:11:36   That is the TSMC one, and that's the one that,

00:11:39   if this is true, that's the one you want to have.

00:11:41   That's the one I have, I'm very happy about that.

00:11:44   I have not been using it long enough to really say

00:11:46   whether I'm noticing extra battery life.

00:11:48   It seems, yeah, roughly the same to me, but I don't know.

00:11:52   I haven't really been running it down a lot

00:11:54   during this usage.

00:11:56   I keep charging it during the day, so I don't know.

00:11:59   Casey, did you check yours?

00:12:00   - I did. - How'd you do?

00:12:02   - I have the no bueno one.

00:12:04   - Oh, no M. - It's kinda like dead pixels.

00:12:06   And maybe you should just not look.

00:12:08   'Cause basically you think like,

00:12:10   am I dissatisfied with the battery life?

00:12:12   If I'm not dissatisfied, then just don't look.

00:12:14   But it's too late, it's too late, you looked.

00:12:15   - Whatever, meh.

00:12:17   It seems to be fine.

00:12:18   It doesn't seem particularly different than the last phone.

00:12:21   As with every iPhone I've ever owned,

00:12:23   I wish it did better.

00:12:25   I wish I had a few more millimeters of battery

00:12:28   somewhere in there, as we've talked about to death,

00:12:30   but that's still how I feel.

00:12:31   - But it's thinner.

00:12:33   But man, it's so thin and so bendy, wait, what?

00:12:36   So anyway, so point being, I do have the quote, unquote,

00:12:40   bad one, I did not check Aaron's phone.

00:12:42   I have no reason to believe that it would be any different

00:12:45   other than just complete luck.

00:12:48   But again, I've not seen any difference in battery life

00:12:51   from the 6 to the 6S, and so I'm not too worked up about it.

00:12:56   - It is kind of unfortunate.

00:12:57   I'm assuming that they probably just couldn't get enough

00:13:02   to make them all the TSM seek chip.

00:13:04   I imagine that's probably a volume and yield issue.

00:13:07   You know, you can look at it either as your phone

00:13:10   gets worse battery life than 40% of them out there,

00:13:13   or you get a bonus if you have the other one.

00:13:16   I don't know.

00:13:17   - What I don't understand is, I mean, last I checked,

00:13:21   I know these phones are doing a lot of background processing

00:13:24   on various and sundry things.

00:13:25   However, 99% of the time, these CPUs are sitting

00:13:29   damn near idle, are they not?

00:13:31   So what is it that's making that much of a difference?

00:13:35   Like, good grief, that's a big difference.

00:13:38   And it just seems weird to me.

00:13:40   - Well, what's the big difference?

00:13:41   'Cause I've seen the reports like,

00:13:43   oh, you get two hours different battery life,

00:13:44   but where are they getting that number from?

00:13:46   The only numbers I've seen are these ones

00:13:47   with this benchmark and the benchmark scores

00:13:50   are like, you know, 2,000 to 3,500.

00:13:52   I don't know what those numbers mean.

00:13:53   It's just an arbitrary number.

00:13:54   They're not number of seconds or times or hours.

00:13:57   - There was a time test on,

00:13:58   I think it was the Engadget post republished it

00:14:01   from whoever it originated, there was a time-based test

00:14:03   and it was like seven hours versus five hours

00:14:06   or something like that.

00:14:07   And I assume it's some kind of like,

00:14:08   it's probably some kind of like max out the CPU

00:14:10   to run it down as quickly as you can kind of test.

00:14:12   - Yeah, I don't know how representative that is

00:14:15   of what you're gonna actually do with the phone.

00:14:18   - Right, exactly.

00:14:18   So again, this is probably a non-story.

00:14:21   We probably shouldn't have even talked about it

00:14:23   for this long, but it's worth monitoring the story.

00:14:26   - Well, I mean, we know they're using two different parts

00:14:28   and there is precedent as many people tweeted

00:14:31   for Apple using different parts from different manufacturers

00:14:33   and one of them being the good one,

00:14:34   as Marco knows for someone who got,

00:14:35   didn't you originally have the MacBook Pro

00:14:37   with the bad screen?

00:14:38   - Yeah, I had like the, I think it was the LG

00:14:41   instead of the Samsung or one of those.

00:14:42   Whatever panel you didn't want in the Retina MacBook Pro,

00:14:44   that's the one I had.

00:14:45   - But anyway, I think it will probably be fine

00:14:49   as long as, like Marco said, as long as the bad chip gets,

00:14:54   you know, and I'm sure Apple made sure of this,

00:14:56   Like as long as the bad chip fulfills the criteria

00:15:00   that they put on the product page.

00:15:02   Oh, you get about this number of hours doing this,

00:15:03   about this number of hours, and they have, you know,

00:15:05   I'm sure there's some little tiny asterisk gonna say,

00:15:07   here's what we use to determine those numbers.

00:15:09   And if someone, there's some class action lawsuit about it,

00:15:11   Apple's gonna say, look, the bad phones get these numbers.

00:15:14   The good ones get even wetter, getting better numbers.

00:15:16   Congratulations, you're lucky.

00:15:17   Like I'm sure they're covering their bases by doing that.

00:15:20   Hope so.

00:15:21   - All right, let's see.

00:15:23   Any other follow-up worth talking about?

00:15:25   I don't think there is.

00:15:27   - I did wanna quickly mention this awesome artwork

00:15:29   that we got today.

00:15:30   - Ah yes, I completely forgot, thank you.

00:15:32   - This is fantastic.

00:15:33   This is, I'm gonna attempt your name here.

00:15:35   This is by Mendogas Rudokas, and it is awesome.

00:15:40   So he drew, he illustrated this artwork called

00:15:44   Business as Usual at ATP, and it's like a comic style,

00:15:47   three frames, one of Jon, one of Casey, and one of me

00:15:51   as we do the podcast, like from the back.

00:15:53   And the level of reference details in here,

00:15:58   this is amazing.

00:16:00   Here, I'll put the link in chat here.

00:16:03   There are so many little references and details

00:16:06   that he got exactly right.

00:16:08   Like it shows John Scream with a ton of windows,

00:16:11   Casey with a giant glass of water next to his MacBook Air.

00:16:16   I'm issued me in my red office with all the fractures,

00:16:19   including the half fallen off,

00:16:21   half-broken piece fracture.

00:16:23   - And the pile of microphones with sale written on it.

00:16:26   - Yep, and there's so many little details

00:16:28   in each of these that are correct.

00:16:30   It even got our keyboard types.

00:16:31   I mean, it's really quite something.

00:16:34   - Yeah, it really is.

00:16:37   I have a glass desk, which is exactly what I have.

00:16:39   Although I am using what looks to be the Shure SM7B,

00:16:44   which I haven't used in a while.

00:16:46   And it looks to me as though you're using Xcode,

00:16:49   like vaguely. - Yeah, that's Xcode.

00:16:51   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:52   - And it's just magnificent.

00:16:54   Everything about this is wonderful.

00:16:56   I saw this, and this was completely unsolicited.

00:16:59   None, or at least I didn't, I didn't think you guys

00:17:01   had any idea this was coming.

00:17:03   It just kind of showed up all of a sudden,

00:17:05   and it is magnificent.

00:17:08   So like Marco said, we'll put this in the show notes.

00:17:10   - And I asked him for a high-res version

00:17:13   that wasn't crushed by Twitter's terrible image compression,

00:17:16   and he gladly volunteered it,

00:17:19   doesn't even want any money for it,

00:17:20   and suggest that I can put it up and have,

00:17:22   if anybody wants to get a fracture print of it,

00:17:25   that I can, he designed it for the medium fracture size

00:17:30   in mind, so I can put it up and people can order fracture.

00:17:34   So I'm definitely getting one.

00:17:35   Like the reason I asked for it,

00:17:37   it was before he even told me that the reason I asked for it

00:17:39   was definitely so that I could get a fracture print of it.

00:17:42   And right as I was getting it from Tiff in our chat,

00:17:46   she was upstairs and she was like,

00:17:48   "Order this from Fracture right now."

00:17:50   I didn't even have to talk to her first.

00:17:52   We both had the immediate thought,

00:17:53   oh man, we're both getting,

00:17:55   we have to get this and hang it in the office.

00:17:57   So I offered to pay him for the high-res version

00:18:00   and to support his work, 'cause this is awesome.

00:18:02   And all he said was he won't take money.

00:18:04   If people wanna support his work, which I definitely do,

00:18:08   he has an app in the store called Disco Timer.

00:18:10   And I downloaded it before the show.

00:18:12   It's pretty good.

00:18:13   It's like, it's a timer,

00:18:15   and you just turn to set the time.

00:18:17   It is so simple.

00:18:18   It is completely over designed in the best possible way.

00:18:23   It's full of animation and really strong visuals.

00:18:28   And you can, just go buy Disco Timer

00:18:31   and unlock the in-app purchase.

00:18:32   It's like three bucks.

00:18:34   Just go buy, unlock this,

00:18:35   'cause this guy does awesome work.

00:18:36   And so check it out.

00:18:37   I'll put the link in the show notes as well.

00:18:39   Yeah, it's a fantastic piece of art.

00:18:41   - It's so good and so chock full of references.

00:18:44   And every time I look at Jon's screen,

00:18:46   and I just laugh a little bit

00:18:47   because it is so out of control.

00:18:49   Oh, I love it.

00:18:50   - Oh yeah, there's tons of windows

00:18:52   and there's a toaster oven next to John.

00:18:54   And even like the pile of microphones

00:18:55   that are sitting next to me that says sale,

00:18:57   those are the microphones I was selling.

00:18:59   Like they actually look like,

00:19:02   again, the level of, he got, you know, my keyboard,

00:19:05   I mean, the level of detail here is really quite something.

00:19:08   - I'm deeply impressed.

00:19:09   - And almost all the details are correct.

00:19:11   - John, anything to add on this

00:19:13   or are you pretty much happy with what we just discussed?

00:19:16   - That's fine, there are lots of corrections

00:19:18   I could add to it, but I don't want to.

00:19:20   I don't want to put that into the head of the artist

00:19:22   as if he's got to go back and fix all the mistakes,

00:19:24   because they are there, but it'll just never end.

00:19:28   So it's best to just go with what you've got

00:19:30   and instead of spending all your time

00:19:32   fixing all the minor errors.

00:19:33   - I love you, Jon.

00:19:35   - So I think I'll ask him to make a few alterations

00:19:37   to yours that make it even less accurate,

00:19:40   and then I'll mail you a gift fracture

00:19:42   with an even less accurate version of yours.

00:19:43   - Oh, that would be phenomenal.

00:19:45   You don't even know all the corrections.

00:19:47   I'll tell you in the after show.

00:19:50   The after after show.

00:19:51   - Oh, that's amazing.

00:19:53   - Oh my goodness.

00:19:54   All right, why don't you tell us about something else

00:19:56   that's awesome.

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00:22:10   All right, so Microsoft has done something interesting, which every time I say that I

00:22:16   have a little bit of surprise in my voice, but I shouldn't, because they've been doing

00:22:19   some interesting stuff for a while now.

00:22:21   And they've come out with the Surface Book, which at first glance, having not really seen

00:22:27   much about it, I was kind of like, "Kay."

00:22:31   And then I looked into it a little bit earlier today.

00:22:34   And it actually looks pretty good.

00:22:36   I'm actually fairly impressed by it.

00:22:38   One of the gripes I had about the Surfaces that have existed thus far is that it just

00:22:43   seemed like a terrible compromise in every direction.

00:22:47   It's kind of a "meh" tablet, it's kind of a "meh" laptop, and it just didn't seem from

00:22:52   a--just physically, it didn't seem like it was a very good endpoint for this series of

00:23:00   compromises.

00:23:01   This, however, the Surface Book, looks like a much better designed laptop that can do

00:23:07   more than just a laptop.

00:23:10   And although I haven't had time to read into it a lot, I am very impressed by the

00:23:14   little bit I've seen so far.

00:23:16   This is an example of the only Apple stuff.

00:23:20   This is an only Microsoft thing.

00:23:21   Only Microsoft could have made this.

00:23:22   And why?

00:23:23   Because only Microsoft has an operating system that is the same one, the same in name and

00:23:29   in concept anyway that runs on their tablets and on their laptops.

00:23:33   Apple couldn't make this because then what would you do when you take off the tablet

00:23:36   part?

00:23:37   Would it switch to iOS and then when you click it back together it would switch back to OS

00:23:40   10?

00:23:41   That would be weird.

00:23:42   So literally only Microsoft could make this because they're the only one who has a software

00:23:45   platform that works like that.

00:23:48   So kudos to them for taking advantage of, I mean I'm sure they consider it their strength,

00:23:53   but surely whether it's a strength or a weakness it's surely a differentiator because it is

00:23:57   It is a seamless experience from having the thing connected

00:24:00   and having it not connected,

00:24:01   because it's not like you change OSs or anything.

00:24:02   It's always the same OS.

00:24:04   - Yeah, and what makes this different

00:24:06   from a hardware point of view is that the,

00:24:11   instead of being this like really chintzy looking kickstand,

00:24:13   which I always thought was so ridiculous,

00:24:15   it has, what do they call this?

00:24:16   A snake hinge, a spider hinge,

00:24:19   some sort of fancy hinge that had a animal analogy.

00:24:22   Anyways, it has this weird hinge,

00:24:23   so you can fold it back on top of the keyboard

00:24:26   then you can just pop the tablet-y part out and use it as a traditional tablet, which

00:24:32   also looks pretty good except for the fact that it appears at least on the right side,

00:24:36   if not both sides. It's got a humongous like grill for the fan, which is a little unfortunate.

00:24:41   But by and large, it looks like it's a lot less chintzy than all the surfaces, sur--

00:24:49   sur-- surface to date have been. I don't know. Marco, what do you think about this?

00:24:53   My concern with this, so right now it looks really good.

00:24:56   It looks amazing.

00:24:57   Like, hardware-wise, this is like,

00:25:00   I'd be really interested if Apple made something like this.

00:25:03   Of course, we know they won't.

00:25:04   But I'd be really interested if Apple made something

00:25:06   like this because I know that, you know,

00:25:11   I am ultimately a laptop person

00:25:13   when it comes to mobile computing.

00:25:15   You know, I don't, with the iPad,

00:25:18   it doesn't resonate with me the way it does

00:25:20   with a lot of people.

00:25:20   Like, I am really a laptop person

00:25:22   with the kind of work I like to do

00:25:23   in the way I like to do it.

00:25:25   But I do occasionally, I am occasionally interested

00:25:28   in stuff like taking a screen somewhere

00:25:33   for some kind of like touch or pen input.

00:25:35   I am very interested in pen type stuff

00:25:37   to see what I could do with that,

00:25:39   even though in real life I'm not much of a pen person

00:25:40   and maybe that should just tell me right there

00:25:42   I don't need it.

00:25:43   But the hardware on this does look really interesting.

00:25:46   Unfortunately, the software is still Windows

00:25:50   And I don't mean to be too harsh on Microsoft here,

00:25:54   'cause it does kinda feel like kicking them

00:25:56   while they're down, but Windows,

00:25:59   the best that people can say about it these days,

00:26:03   which is the best that people keep saying

00:26:04   about their hardware, is what you open up with, Casey,

00:26:07   that it's interesting.

00:26:09   And interesting is great.

00:26:11   People have been saying that when Windows Phone 8 came out,

00:26:15   whatever that was officially called,

00:26:17   when Windows 8 came out with the phone thing

00:26:19   and the whole redesign and the artist formerly known

00:26:22   as Metro Interface Style, people said the same thing.

00:26:25   Oh, this is really interesting.

00:26:27   People said the same thing about POMO,

00:26:29   WebOS, WebOS, that WebOS was really interesting.

00:26:34   And even before that, like, BOS was really interesting.

00:26:39   Lots of things can get the tech press

00:26:40   to say they're interesting, and to get geeks like us

00:26:42   to look at them and say, oh, that's interesting.

00:26:45   The problem is how often that translates

00:26:47   doesn't translate into actually buying and using these things. So many of the reviews

00:26:53   of these interesting products in tech history have all been like, "Yeah, this would be

00:26:57   really nice maybe for somebody who's not me." And that seems to always be the case.

00:27:03   Like, the Surface Book here, this would be really interesting for us if we weren't

00:27:08   already using Macs for everything. And that, you know, it's like, yeah, okay, this would

00:27:12   be really interesting if we loved the Windows world but didn't love the other PCs that

00:27:17   that have been keeping us there all this time.

00:27:19   I bet a lot of people are gonna look at this

00:27:21   and say it's interesting, but I bet very few of them

00:27:23   are actually gonna buy it.

00:27:24   And that's been the problem Microsoft has had

00:27:26   with a lot of their recent stuff.

00:27:28   - Well Mac users aren't gonna buy it, right?

00:27:30   But this is different than Windows Phone

00:27:32   in that there is a built-in customer base for this

00:27:35   because Microsoft is shrewdly this time presenting it

00:27:38   as a laptop, hey, we made a laptop.

00:27:40   Oh, and by the way, the screen comes off

00:27:41   and you can kinda use it as a tablet.

00:27:42   But yeah, I don't know if you know this, Marco,

00:27:45   but I don't think you would want it

00:27:46   because the tablet part gets like a four hour battery life

00:27:49   because half the battery, more than half the battery,

00:27:50   it's like 80% of the batteries is in the base or whatever.

00:27:53   - They split the, I guess that makes sense

00:27:54   for weight reasons, you'd have to, that's crazy.

00:27:56   - Yeah, they had to split the battery.

00:27:57   But anyway, it's a four hour battery life in a tablet.

00:27:59   But anyway, Microsoft are presenting this as,

00:28:01   forget about the whole detaching thing.

00:28:03   This is just a good Windows notebook.

00:28:05   And Windows notebook is not like a speculative product

00:28:07   like the Surface was where it's like, I don't know,

00:28:09   maybe people wanna use this thing

00:28:10   with the stand and the pen.

00:28:12   People buy Windows notebooks.

00:28:13   That is a thing that people buy.

00:28:14   This looks like a pretty good Windows notebook.

00:28:17   Like the performance is good, the design is pretty nice.

00:28:20   The features they tout about it,

00:28:22   like the keyboard looks like it's well designed.

00:28:24   One of the features they tout,

00:28:25   it has really good key travel on the keys.

00:28:27   And again, how can they have good key travel on the keys?

00:28:29   Because the computer is in the screen.

00:28:31   And the only thing that's in the keyboard part

00:28:33   is the batteries and a GPU and some other stuff.

00:28:37   It also doesn't have the teardrop shape.

00:28:39   Yeah, the tech part is interesting

00:28:41   because like it's dual GPU.

00:28:43   So in the base where the keyboard is, there's a bunch of battery, there's a keyboard, and

00:28:47   there's a big GPU.

00:28:49   And in the tablet part of it, there's a smaller GPU and some battery and the actual CPU and

00:28:57   the memory and the rest of the guts of the computer.

00:28:58   I would love to know what their interconnect is.

00:29:00   Like is it some proprietary PCI Express thing?

00:29:03   Is it actually Thunderbolt over a custom connector?

00:29:06   It's not a standard connector.

00:29:07   They made up their own connector.

00:29:08   And even that, like they're doing interesting Apple-style things like, "Oh, how do we connect

00:29:12   the top to the bottom part with these little like, I think they call them like metal muscles,

00:29:17   but it's like wires that remember their shape and reform to their shape if you apply current

00:29:21   to them. Using that to sort of pull tight these little clasps and stuff and they have like a

00:29:24   little, it's like your BMW Marco, like when they disengage the little hooks to let you know it's

00:29:29   disengaged, the speakers play a sound like a little snick so you know when it, you know.

00:29:35   It is a, you know, just again, ignoring the tablet part of it, it's a pretty neat Windows laptop.

00:29:39   And so I think their positioning of this product as a Windows laptop first

00:29:43   and by the way

00:29:43   it has this pen and touch stuff second is really smart and I

00:29:47   Think it's not doomed like the surface is it to be like well, it's interesting

00:29:51   But I don't really want them because even though we're not gonna get it because we want to run OS 10, right?

00:29:56   People who are already buying Windows laptops who are in the market for a small Windows laptop that they travel with or whatever and they're looking

00:30:04   At well, should I get like a Dell laptop or should I get a Lenovo laptop or should I get this thing?

00:30:08   This has a lot of appeal because it's it's nicer looking than the most of the other you know Windows notebooks

00:30:13   I see it's it's interesting with with the

00:30:15   The tablet angle and you can always say like well if I know if the tablet thing turns out not to be useful to me

00:30:20   It's still a nice laptop

00:30:22   so I think I have

00:30:24   Feel good things about this this product success in the market the only question marks in my mind in terms of how they're gonna do

00:30:31   Selling this is just a plain old laptop is like how good is it Microsoft in manufacturing things anymore?

00:30:36   'cause they're making this themselves,

00:30:38   they're not outsourcing as far as I understand.

00:30:39   And they have a lot of practice with the service

00:30:41   and dealing with manufacturing things.

00:30:42   And like this is a skill set that Microsoft is developing.

00:30:45   Apple has developed it, Apple's got it, right?

00:30:48   And presumably Lenovo and Dell and all those other things

00:30:51   have their own version of this expertise, right?

00:30:53   But Microsoft is clearly aiming at the,

00:30:55   we want the fit and finish of an Apple type product,

00:30:57   the design expertise of an Apple type product

00:30:59   and I guess they're probably gonna go for,

00:31:00   we wanna be as good a manufacturer as Apple too.

00:31:02   But that's a long road,

00:31:04   they're currently traveling that road.

00:31:06   So it is an interesting product.

00:31:09   I think it is a smart move.

00:31:13   I mean, they did make the Surface 4.

00:31:14   Like, they're still going in that surface direction.

00:31:16   But this is a smart move to say, you know,

00:31:19   this is a product that only Microsoft could make.

00:31:21   It advances our goals on all fronts

00:31:24   in terms of getting better at making products

00:31:26   and having them well-designed and stuff like that.

00:31:28   And it will appeal to an actual customer base

00:31:32   that is, you know, every year buying a bunch of Windows.

00:31:34   Now Windows laptops is not a growth industry.

00:31:37   Neither are Macs for that matter,

00:31:38   although they're growing more than that.

00:31:40   But hey, start small.

00:31:42   I think it was Satya Nadella said,

00:31:45   what is it, this is our, these are colorful iMacs.

00:31:47   I guess everything can't be their colorful iMacs,

00:31:49   but they're recognizing that they're in the beginning stage

00:31:52   of a resurgence.

00:31:53   - Yeah, and I think this is the right way to do it.

00:31:56   I think if they want to get more of the Apple-like market

00:32:01   or the Apple-like appeal of having this really nice hardware

00:32:04   with good integration with the software.

00:32:06   People have been saying that one of the problems

00:32:08   they have with this is their relationship with OEMs

00:32:11   and how this is going to change that and harm that possibly.

00:32:14   And I don't think that's really a concern at this point

00:32:17   because I think, what is Dell gonna do?

00:32:21   Start putting Linux in those things?

00:32:23   No, they--

00:32:24   - They're gonna copy this design.

00:32:25   They have the same thing with all the servers.

00:32:27   That's what all the OEMs will do.

00:32:28   They will make things that look and act just like this,

00:32:30   which I think is also fine with Microsoft.

00:32:32   - Yeah, but I think what we've seen over the last,

00:32:35   I don't know, decade, where like, you know,

00:32:36   Microsoft has been pushing various things here and there,

00:32:39   and the OEMs have been trying to compete better with Apple,

00:32:41   and I think what we keep seeing over and over again

00:32:44   is that the Windows PC makers just aren't very good

00:32:48   at really truly competing with Apple on hardware,

00:32:50   you know, for whatever reason.

00:32:51   If they just can't do it right,

00:32:54   or if they just can't take the margin hit

00:32:57   by making better stuff, whatever the case may be,

00:32:59   they aren't doing it.

00:33:00   So if Microsoft can step in and attempt to do it,

00:33:03   then more power to them.

00:33:05   The biggest problem I think with this though is,

00:33:08   kind of going back to what I was saying earlier,

00:33:09   but who will buy this and will it appeal to them?

00:33:14   So right now, people who have wanted a premium quality,

00:33:19   well thought out, highly integrated computer

00:33:22   for the last decade or more have been buying Macs.

00:33:25   Even PC people like me and Casey

00:33:27   who started out as PC people,

00:33:30   many of us, especially like in the web developer community, so many of us moved to Macs over

00:33:34   the last decade that, you know, the question of like, you know, who's going to switch

00:33:40   back I think is going to be a pretty small number and all the remaining people who use

00:33:45   PCs, which is still, you know, I think it's still by far the dominant platform, the question

00:33:49   is will this appeal to those people? You know, relative to, if you look at why people who

00:33:56   do buy PCs, who aren't buying Macs, why they still buy PCs. And a lot of that is for cheaper

00:34:03   hardware, much more variety of the type of hardware that's available, different types

00:34:08   of more powerful stuff you can get for the money or more powerful stuff you can get in

00:34:12   different form factors like people who buy PCs often want really beefy gaming GPUs and

00:34:18   laptops and stuff like that, or people who buy stuff for offices want stuff to be really

00:34:22   cheap and easily managed and stuff.

00:34:24   So will the people who are still buying PCs today

00:34:29   want to buy this?

00:34:30   And I know some of them will.

00:34:33   But the question is will enough buy it to really matter,

00:34:36   to really kind of shift things around

00:34:38   and start meaningful momentum behind this?

00:34:40   And I don't know.

00:34:42   - I think the answer's definitely yes.

00:34:44   So my brother-in-law is deep into the Microsoft stack.

00:34:48   He does the same sort of work I do,

00:34:51   typically more around CMSs than I do, although I do a lot of that work.

00:34:56   He sent me a text today telling me that he was getting the Surface Book, he was getting

00:35:02   the new version of the Microsoft Band, and I didn't ask him if he's going to stick with

00:35:06   his Windows Phone or not, but I'm pretty sure he's feeling the pain in that department.

00:35:12   But he loves his existing Microsoft Band, he loves his existing Surface, and he is seriously

00:35:18   amped up over the Surface Book.

00:35:20   And I think the thing is that for PC users that are genuinely content being PC users—not

00:35:27   ones with a philandering eye that are looking at Apple saying, "Mm, that looks interesting."

00:35:33   But ones who are really into PCs, they're saying this is perfect.

00:35:39   It is the no-compromise machine that really is nothing but compromises.

00:35:44   But it's the no-compromise machine.

00:35:46   It is a perfect tablet that can do anything, not like your piece of crap iPad that can

00:35:51   only do iPad things.

00:35:52   It can do anything as soon as it becomes a tablet.

00:35:56   I don't have to compromise and use a neutered operating system.

00:36:00   Then when I feel like typing, I have a perfectly good full-size keyboard.

00:36:05   Not this hacky keyboard that kind of folds up on itself and folds around behind or in

00:36:10   front or whatever.

00:36:11   It's a full honest-to-goodness keyboard.

00:36:14   This is perfect for those kinds of people.

00:36:17   I'm not saying I'm one of them.

00:36:18   I can't imagine that this would be terribly great to use.

00:36:21   And even though I've heard great things about Windows 10, I have no particular interest

00:36:25   in getting into that.

00:36:27   However, if you're in that mindset of, "I want something with no compromises.

00:36:31   I don't want Apple telling me what to do and how to do it.

00:36:33   I want something that I can do whatever I want with in any form factor at any time with

00:36:38   no compromises," again, actually built on compromises, then this is the thing for me.

00:36:44   And it really is playing to their market, and I think it's doing it well.

00:36:47   I mean, I admire what they're doing.

00:36:49   I think they're playing to their market very well.

00:36:51   It's just that that's not for me, and I think it's safe to say it's not for you guys either.

00:36:55   Let's take a night now to list everything that's wrong with us, now that we've all said

00:36:59   nice things about it.

00:37:00   Sure.

00:37:01   So, this is kind of shooting fish in a barrel.

00:37:04   If you want to feel better about it, think about the first MacBook Air, which was also

00:37:08   a mess as a product, and this is doing better than that.

00:37:11   Let's start with the hinge that we just talked about.

00:37:15   If you haven't seen the pictures you'll be like, "What are they talking about with the

00:37:17   hinge?

00:37:18   A hinge is just a hinge, right?"

00:37:19   This hinge is weird because, well, the first thing you have to know about it is when it's

00:37:22   in the closed position, the top half does not touch the bottom half completely, like

00:37:28   it does on the Mac laptops.

00:37:29   There's a big gap, like you could drop coins, you could put the thing vertically and drop

00:37:33   coins through it.

00:37:34   It's like a big opening.

00:37:35   You can see daylight through it, a very large opening.

00:37:38   There is actually one advantage to this very large opening,

00:37:40   which Andy Anocco pointed out,

00:37:42   is that you don't get your finger schmutz

00:37:44   from the keys onto the screen.

00:37:46   That has happened with a lot of Mac laptops in the past,

00:37:48   and I don't know if any of the current ones have the problem.

00:37:50   You guys can tell me 'cause I don't really use laptops.

00:37:53   - The 15 does a little bit.

00:37:54   It depends a lot on how you put it in your bag

00:37:57   and what is pushing against it.

00:37:59   If you don't have a lot of pressure

00:38:00   that pushes it more closed, if that makes sense,

00:38:03   if you can avoid that kind of pressure in your bag

00:38:06   with either how you put it in

00:38:07   how much other stuff you put in the bag with it,

00:38:09   you generally won't get those marks.

00:38:11   - Yeah, anyway, and that's a problem Apple can solve

00:38:12   by, hey, guess what, had a little extra clearance there.

00:38:14   But anyway, that is the one advantage to that thing.

00:38:16   - They killed the keyboard, John.

00:38:18   The one place you need clearance.

00:38:20   - I know, I know. - They're like, oh,

00:38:21   we can cut, that's not important, we can cut that out.

00:38:22   - Hey, I bet the MacBook One keys don't touch the screen

00:38:25   'cause they're so repressed. (laughing)

00:38:27   You know, they don't even poke up from the, anyway.

00:38:30   The disadvantage, of course,

00:38:31   is that it makes the wide end wider.

00:38:34   It makes it really wide.

00:38:35   And that's not great for it.

00:38:38   It depends on how you feel about like, you ever seen those things where they show a picture

00:38:42   of a bunch of pencils all lined up and one pencil is poking out and various other things

00:38:45   that are slightly disordered.

00:38:46   And if you're the type of person who likes all your books lined up neatly on your bookshelf

00:38:50   and all your things just so looking at those pictures can give you discomfort, this laptop

00:38:54   – I'm one of those people, by the way – this laptop gives me a little bit of discomfort

00:38:57   of like, "Can't you just close it all the way?

00:39:00   Can't you just make it flat?

00:39:01   You just want to just stomp on that hinge."

00:39:04   Anyway.

00:39:05   So, the practical consideration is that it makes the thing wider on the end, which isn't

00:39:09   great because you do want a laptop to be thin.

00:39:13   Because the screen part of it is basically the computer and the bottom part of it, even

00:39:17   though it has a GPU and a keyboard and a bunch of ports on it, is not the computer, the screen

00:39:22   part is wider than you would expect on a laptop because these days on the Mac laptops the

00:39:27   screen part is really thin.

00:39:28   All it is is a screen.

00:39:29   It's really, really, really thin.

00:39:31   This can't be really thin.

00:39:32   That's where the whole CPU is.

00:39:33   fan and there's a whole bunch of other stuff.

00:39:34   And as we know from other surfaces,

00:39:36   when you do that, that makes that top part heavy.

00:39:39   And if you're not careful,

00:39:40   when you put it in a laptop shape, it can tip over.

00:39:43   Because you don't have it at exactly a right angle,

00:39:46   you open up to a wider angle than that.

00:39:48   And once you open up to a wider angle,

00:39:49   if the top part is heavy and the keyboard part is light,

00:39:52   it can just tip over.

00:39:53   And of course you don't want to do that.

00:39:54   You want it to stay like a laptop, right?

00:39:56   That's what this hinge is doing.

00:39:58   They're so close.

00:39:59   Basically what they did was they took

00:40:01   They took the battery, battery is their ballast, right?

00:40:05   So they've got the GPU here,

00:40:07   we've got the CPU and the screen there,

00:40:08   we've got the ports, but we haven't put battery anywhere yet.

00:40:11   In that arrangement with no battery anywhere,

00:40:12   the top is heavier because the top has more stuff in it.

00:40:15   Like it is just the screen alone, the glass on the screen,

00:40:17   like it is just the heaviest part.

00:40:19   And so like, all right,

00:40:20   this thing doesn't stand upright in this situation,

00:40:22   but we haven't put any battery in yet.

00:40:23   We need to distribute the battery so it sits upright.

00:40:26   And they don't want to take all the battery

00:40:29   and shove it into the keyboard part

00:40:30   because then when you detach it as a tablet,

00:40:31   you get 30 seconds of battery life.

00:40:32   So they want as much as possible in the screen.

00:40:35   So they're doing this balancing act where like,

00:40:37   put some battery in the bottom,

00:40:38   put some battery in the top,

00:40:39   and just doing this is gonna balance,

00:40:40   like how can we get it so it doesn't tip over,

00:40:42   but we have the most battery possible in the top part.

00:40:45   And to get just a little bit of extra battery

00:40:48   in the top part, to get it to not tip over,

00:40:50   that's where the hinge comes in.

00:40:51   Because when you open the hinge,

00:40:53   the hinge effectively makes the base wider.

00:40:55   Like it puts the heavy part farther away.

00:40:58   You can, you know, we'll have Dr. Drang

00:40:59   the force diagram for you, but like,

00:41:01   but basically the hinge lays down on the table,

00:41:04   effectively making the base longer

00:41:06   so that the weight that's at the end of the base,

00:41:08   that the part like where the track pad is,

00:41:09   which by the way is a glass track pad

00:41:11   and not a chintzy plastic one,

00:41:12   that weight now can hold that end down better.

00:41:15   Like they're getting just a little bit of extra stability

00:41:18   by making the hinge suddenly become part of,

00:41:21   like the three segments of the hinge

00:41:22   become part of the bottom part of the hinge.

00:41:24   And you're like, seriously,

00:41:25   does that extra half an inch or a centimeter

00:41:28   make a difference?

00:41:29   That's what kind of hairline they're drawing in terms of like tip-ability, not tip-ability.

00:41:32   I'm not saying it's like teetering on the brink, I'm saying they had some criteria for

00:41:35   how tip-able they want it to be, like where the center of gravity is or whatever.

00:41:40   And those three little segments that lay on the table when you open it up, give them a

00:41:43   little bit of extra margin.

00:41:45   Let them put a little bit of extra battery in the top part.

00:41:47   That is, like Casey said, is a hell of a compromise.

00:41:50   Like this hinge is not there for design reasons, it's not there for style reasons, and it's

00:41:53   not there to keep your finger shimps off the screen by putting a half inch gap between

00:41:57   the key caps and the screen.

00:41:58   It's there to try to work around the compromise they've had to deal with.

00:42:02   And the final compromise is that tablet gets four hours of battery life, and that is just

00:42:06   no good.

00:42:07   If you want to use it as a tablet any substantial amount of time, don't get this one.

00:42:13   Get the actual Surface Pro 4, because most of the battery in this thing is in the base

00:42:18   part of it.

00:42:20   And the final thing I would say is for Microsoft Design and everything, I admire all the interesting

00:42:25   things that they're doing and that they're trying to gain expertise but they still seem

00:42:30   with their hardware designs if not their software designs trapped in the white room that Johnny

00:42:35   Ive made.

00:42:36   This is a silver metallic laptop.

00:42:38   It's got a light up logo on the back of it that's not shaped like an apple.

00:42:40   It's shaped like the little silly windows logo which is not a great look.

00:42:43   Like squint and it looks like every other laptop and every other laptop looks like an

00:42:47   apple laptop.

00:42:48   I know it's magnesium and not aluminum but like the aesthetic.

00:42:51   overall sort of, you know, the keys are look like Apple's keys, but they're, you know, magnesium

00:42:55   instead, and they're not domes, which is like, Apple so dominates hardware design visually that

00:43:00   every single other computer, including Microsoft super innovative ones, just, they just live in the

00:43:06   shadow of everything that Apple's design team has done. And I feel like eventually they're going to

00:43:11   have to go their own way and get out of that shadow. Like, it's the thing that Johnny I've

00:43:16   said a million times, like, we want to make a design that after we do what everyone thinks,

00:43:18   it's inevitable and it's it's the blessing and the curse because like people like well of course

00:43:22   that's what a laptop has to be shaped like because that's what they're shaped like no that's just the

00:43:24   way johnny i've made them like don't accept his it's not actually inevitable it's great design

00:43:29   that makes you think it's inevitable but it's like everyone else is like well this is what laptops

00:43:33   look like we have no choice but to make a lap down to making a glass trackpad for crying out like

00:43:37   they use the materials the colors the appearance just you know again microsoft getting out of the

00:43:42   materials saying we're gonna use magnesium it's better than aluminum and we're gonna deal with

00:43:45   with only manufacturing. It's like, fine, good, but you still end up making a silver

00:43:48   laptop with your glowing logo on the back of it. So that's it for someone who has never

00:43:53   actually touched one of these things, just looking at the pictures of what I think is

00:43:56   wrong with this. It gets up to 12 hours of video playback, John.

00:44:00   When it's connected to the giant battery and the keyboard.

00:44:03   I found a typo on their website. Oh yeah?

00:44:06   Yeah, the link here, I put a page in the show notes, their main page under tech specs. You

00:44:11   You scroll down past the picture of the two laptops,

00:44:14   choose the power you need,

00:44:15   and it says Intel Core i5 with Intel HG graphics.

00:44:19   It's supposed to be HD graphics.

00:44:21   Intel HG graphics don't exist.

00:44:23   Hopefully they put more attention to detail

00:44:24   into the actual manufacturing of the product.

00:44:26   - The OS integration is, again,

00:44:28   it's great that Microsoft,

00:44:30   not only Microsoft could do this,

00:44:31   'cause Apple can do it as well,

00:44:33   but it's a typical Apple move.

00:44:34   Like, hey, we're gonna make this weird thing with two GPUs.

00:44:37   Is that gonna be supported well in Windows?

00:44:38   Yeah, 'cause we write Windows,

00:44:39   so we'll make sure that,

00:44:41   It's kind of like when Apple did the GPU switching, where we have discrete and integrated in the

00:44:45   same laptop, and we'll smartly switch between them, and Apple kind of screwed that up.

00:44:49   Hopefully Microsoft did a better job, because they basically have the same thing.

00:44:51   They have the big, faster GPU in the keyboard part, and the lower power, not as fast GPU

00:44:56   in the tablet part.

00:44:58   And I'm assuming it does some either, if not smart switching between them, then just two

00:45:02   modes, like one all discrete and one all integrated.

00:45:05   Going back a sec to what you said about the Johnny Ive trap of design here, honestly,

00:45:10   and bringing this back to Apple a little bit,

00:45:12   I would love to see more variety.

00:45:14   I think it seems like Apple's computer design

00:45:17   is really kind of stuck in a rut,

00:45:19   and I don't know, maybe Johnny Ive has just reached

00:45:24   the limit of what he cares to do on computer designs.

00:45:27   - Well, it's not him, it's his team,

00:45:28   but anyway, the Mac Pro was a breath of fresh air,

00:45:30   or not so fresh air, but you can't say it looked like

00:45:33   an aluminum-machined rounded corner rectangle.

00:45:36   - That's true, yeah, the Mac Pro I think looks great.

00:45:39   It's, I don't know, but we all know

00:45:42   that they really mostly just sell laptops these days,

00:45:44   and I am a little bit, I don't know,

00:45:47   maybe I'm just bored 'cause I've been using laptops

00:45:49   that look basically the same for the last 15 years,

00:45:52   10 years that I've been buying Macs, so I don't know.

00:45:56   I would love to see a little more variety

00:45:59   in what Apple offers.

00:46:01   - Well, they are doing colors now, right?

00:46:03   - The colors are barely different from each other.

00:46:05   - I get what you're saying, though.

00:46:06   They are very, like, there is, we are in a rut.

00:46:09   We are in the design route for this and there is room to do more interesting things but

00:46:15   here's what I think the problem that Apple faces with this design, I think we talked

00:46:20   about this in past shows for laptops.

00:46:22   One, laptops are constrained by being laptops to some degree.

00:46:25   You can make the Mac Pro a weird tube because whatever, like you don't carry it around.

00:46:29   Laptops for the most part have to be a thing that is small and light and that is reasonably

00:46:36   portable which probably means it has to fold flat into some kind of shape that's not too

00:46:40   big to fit in a bag.

00:46:41   Those constraints really, you know, the screen's not going to be circular, there's only so

00:46:45   much you can do.

00:46:46   And within the constraints, you know, the Apple design has been like "oh we just need

00:46:50   to refine it down to its essence and blah blah blah" and they've been doing that and

00:46:54   they eventually settled on material which is big giant blocks of aluminum that they

00:46:57   carve out that's strong and light and attractive and durable and all that stuff which is just

00:47:01   so much better than everything else they tried which included plastic and titanium and aluminum

00:47:06   that wasn't carved out of a single giant block, the aluminum unibody is a great design for

00:47:12   a laptop.

00:47:13   And so the problem they're faced with is either we can continue to do aesthetic things with

00:47:18   a single block of aluminum, which I think there's room for that.

00:47:20   You could make a Darth Vader black one and charge $150 for it in the tradition of the

00:47:24   old black book and that would be great.

00:47:27   Or you could make one that has a mirror finish or something.

00:47:30   There are things you can do within the metal, but that's mostly just surface design.

00:47:35   To go to the next stage of design, you have to change materials.

00:47:39   And I'm sure in a lab somewhere, Apple is constantly evaluating, "Is aluminum really

00:47:43   the best material to make a laptop?

00:47:45   Is there anything else?

00:47:46   Can we do carbon fiber?

00:47:47   Can we revisit titanium?

00:47:48   What about magnesium?

00:47:49   Microsoft's doing that."

00:47:51   New materials could mean something new for them.

00:47:54   And especially if they say, "Now we're into the era where things are going to be flexible

00:47:57   instead of rigid," or we have floppy OLED screens that roll out on little stilts.

00:48:02   I don't know.

00:48:03   But for the foreseeable future, I think machined aluminum is the best choice, and then there

00:48:10   are aesthetic choices within that are constrained both by being a laptop and by like there's

00:48:16   only so much you can do with it.

00:48:17   But in the end, their timid tinting of the aluminum is still pretty wimpy.

00:48:23   Like a jet black one alone would be exciting enough that maybe you'd be like, "Oh, that

00:48:28   looks cool.

00:48:29   I'll be interested to not have yet another million silver laptops in my house."

00:48:31   - Right, I mean look at what they're able to do

00:48:33   with the iPod Touch colors, they look great.

00:48:34   And the iPods from forever ago,

00:48:35   like the iPod Nano, the iPod Touch,

00:48:38   those have these bold, bright colors

00:48:40   that change every few years.

00:48:43   That would be really interesting on laptops, on the phones,

00:48:47   but they're so much more conservative.

00:48:50   And I'm sure there's good reason for that

00:48:52   with design, marketing, fashion, whatever,

00:48:55   but I admit I'm really kinda bored with their designs.

00:48:59   And maybe that's obviously a really stupid thing

00:49:02   to whine about, but I would like to see them

00:49:04   just try a little bit more variety there.

00:49:06   - You gotta be careful what you ask for though,

00:49:07   because the thing that just flashed into my mind

00:49:09   was a MacBook One, which is not actually called

00:49:12   the MacBook One new listeners, which is what we call it,

00:49:14   the really skinny one with the bad keyboard.

00:49:17   But where it's still silver, or maybe it's black,

00:49:21   or maybe it's like tinted gray, or whatever,

00:49:23   it's still aluminum, the only thing you have

00:49:25   to mess with color-wise there is the keyboard.

00:49:27   why not make the keyboard Dalmatian?

00:49:30   Why not make the keyboard flower power?

00:49:32   These are things that have happened.

00:49:35   Why did the Dalmatian flower power exist?

00:49:37   'Cause at a certain point you're like,

00:49:38   the iMac is defined by CRT, we've got a slot loading drive,

00:49:42   we've done a bunch of tweaks to the design,

00:49:43   you know what, we've got this big giant canvas,

00:49:46   let's do something with it.

00:49:47   They don't have much of a canvas in other ones.

00:49:48   I guess they could make the back of the screen have weird,

00:49:51   you see all this aftermarket stuff

00:49:52   where they laser etch your laptop

00:49:54   with flowers or whatever.

00:49:57   There's only so much room for things until you,

00:50:00   for innovation in this space, if you stick to aluminum,

00:50:03   unless you start saying, all right,

00:50:05   it's time to wallpaper things.

00:50:06   Time to just like, there's a bunch of services

00:50:08   that I treat as billboards,

00:50:09   and I'm just going to put a bunch of stuff on them.

00:50:11   And I don't think the flower power and Dalmatian IMAX,

00:50:14   which are real things, young people,

00:50:16   that actually happened, I don't think they sold very well,

00:50:19   but that's sort of the logical conclusion

00:50:21   of we are in a design rut,

00:50:24   and we can't think of anything else.

00:50:25   We've done colors, we've done shapes.

00:50:27   We're stuck with this until we can come up

00:50:29   with the flat panel I'm at, you know,

00:50:31   in which case they started innovating again in the design.

00:50:34   At the very end of that life cycle,

00:50:35   they said, all right, patterns, whatever.

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00:53:04   - All right.

00:53:05   Question for you guys.

00:53:07   Do we really care that Jack Dorsey's back at Twitter?

00:53:10   'Cause I do not care.

00:53:13   - I couldn't possibly care less.

00:53:15   a lot of our friends are like really excited about this

00:53:18   and I don't care.

00:53:21   Why should I care?

00:53:22   - I mean I care about Twitter,

00:53:24   but the Twitter leadership over the years

00:53:27   has been such a revolving door

00:53:29   that's just like I don't know.

00:53:31   It seems like they have a lot of issues up there

00:53:33   that are way above most of our heads

00:53:36   and it doesn't really, I don't know.

00:53:39   I think Twitter is a really, really useful thing,

00:53:43   a really important thing in the world right now

00:53:45   and I hope they don't screw it up, but I have no idea whether this is a step in the right

00:53:48   direction or not. I have no clue.

00:53:50   >> Yeah, that's the thing too. I care about Twitter's leadership, I care about the direction

00:53:54   of Twitter as a Twitter user, but I don't know enough about Jack Dorsey or the history

00:53:59   behind the leadership or what's really going on behind the scenes to know whether this

00:54:02   is a good or a bad thing or it's just, you know, wait five minutes and someone else will

00:54:06   be in charge so it doesn't matter. So I really hope this is a good thing. A lot of people

00:54:10   seem to think it is, but I have no particular information or faith that this is going to

00:54:15   things better than they have been.

00:54:17   - I mean, I will say that it did seem like they were going in a bad direction. And so,

00:54:22   you know, a change is probably for the best, but you know, the reason they were going in

00:54:27   a bad direction was probably not because of who the CEO was, it's probably because of

00:54:32   all the pressures they're facing. You know, they face so much pressure, now they're a

00:54:35   public company and they're really not hitting their growth or usage goals. They're under

00:54:39   so much pressure from everybody, from the investors, from the public, from the press,

00:54:46   almost certainly from the board as a result of all those things. They are under so much

00:54:49   pressure to juice their numbers and really get the growth and get the usage up because

00:54:55   they're not keeping up with where they want it to be and their stock price isn't doing

00:54:58   that well as a result and blah, blah, blah. And so it has a lot less to do I think with

00:55:04   somebody sitting in a conference room saying, "This is what I feel is best for the product."

00:55:07   I think instead it's like dealing with that giant pile of crap that whoever is in charge

00:55:12   of Twitter has to deal with now as a result of these market pressures and them really

00:55:17   not hitting their numbers recently.

00:55:22   Anybody in that position is going to have a big challenge.

00:55:25   It does seem like people are confident in Jack and he does seem to have a lot of political

00:55:29   capital there.

00:55:30   So maybe this is promising, who knows, but it's not a simple problem and it's not,

00:55:38   you know, the things they change might not be, you know, all great and lucky for us.

00:55:43   I mean, Dick Costolo was doing a pretty good job on a lot of fronts. You know, he wasn't

00:55:48   doing great on everything, but he was doing pretty well on a lot of things and a lot of

00:55:51   those things were things we didn't like, like some of the monetization and ad stuff,

00:55:54   but he was doing fairly well on that kind of stuff as far as I know.

00:55:57   So I don't think, you know, if Twitter starts making changes for, you know, to keep themselves

00:56:06   afloat, to keep, you know, their numbers going up, to keep their product, you know, going

00:56:11   where it should be going, most of that sounds to me like they need to do things we don't

00:56:18   like. Like they need to inject ads into the stream for third-party clients. They need

00:56:22   to actually really not boost third-party clients because they need to take control of their

00:56:26   own product. This is all stuff that I don't like, but it's probably going to happen.

00:56:32   The control of their own product, A, they've kind of had it for a while, and B, it's clear

00:56:35   they don't know what to do with that control. It's like, now we control the product, and

00:56:39   what we're going to do with it is let most of our clients rot to crap, and then we don't

00:56:43   know what we're going to do with the few clients we do pay attention to. And so that's, it's

00:56:47   like, well, you got the control, but the second part of having the control is doing something

00:56:51   with that control. And so far, they've just been floundering. Like, it makes, that's why

00:56:56   people are optimistic like, "Oh, Jack Dorsey, you'll maybe understand that developers are

00:57:00   important." I'm not saying that's a good strategy, but at least that's a strategy where something

00:57:05   would happen. I think the problem has been, there hasn't been a clear... The direction was like,

00:57:11   "Okay, so much for third parties. We're going to take control." But they didn't take that and take

00:57:15   the ball and run with it. Like, "All right, we've got control. Now let's go boldly off into this

00:57:18   direction," which may have been the wrong direction, but at least you can say, "Well,

00:57:21   this is the thing they did. They took control from third-party developers and they ran as fast as they

00:57:24   they could in this direction and guess what?

00:57:25   There was a brick wall, oh well.

00:57:27   But at least they tried something.

00:57:29   The only thing that we know would have some effect is,

00:57:33   well, you could run back in the other direction

00:57:36   where it used to be like, oh, third parties, you're welcome.

00:57:38   And everybody who wants to have an API key,

00:57:41   maybe we'll have some revenue sharing arrangement

00:57:43   where if you sell a Twitter client and you use our API,

00:57:45   you have to give us a percentage of the money

00:57:47   or something like that, but that's not gonna make them rich.

00:57:49   That's not gonna move the needle on their stock price.

00:57:51   We know it would work.

00:57:52   Developers would love to do it.

00:57:53   third-party clients would flourish,

00:57:55   they would make some money off of it,

00:57:56   but it would be peanuts compared to what they have to make

00:57:58   to be the company that everyone thinks

00:58:00   they're supposed to be.

00:58:02   The only good thing you could say about Twitter

00:58:03   at this point is no matter who's in charge,

00:58:06   eventually as these CEOs rotate,

00:58:08   as bad as things get,

00:58:10   as long as Twitter continues to be like it is now,

00:58:12   somebody can always sell it.

00:58:14   'Cause there's plenty of people who will buy Twitter

00:58:16   right now today if the price is right,

00:58:18   including probably Apple.

00:58:20   Because Twitter is still a thing,

00:58:22   It is popular, hashtags are everywhere, you see them on TV, it has gotten into the culture

00:58:27   to the degree that, worst case scenario, the very very worst is the last CEO out the door

00:58:33   sells the company to one of the million eager buyers.

00:58:36   Maybe not for what they could have got at the peak of their fame, but surely enough

00:58:39   to give that CEO a golden parachute and to say, "Well, we made some money for our investors

00:58:44   and it's fine and we couldn't fare what to do with the company.

00:58:47   Let it be absorbed into another company that has some other way to make tons of money and

00:58:51   and we're just like a little nice to have value at.

00:58:54   - Yeah, we'll see.

00:58:55   I don't know, I just,

00:58:56   I've been trying to get excited about this

00:58:57   and I just don't care.

00:58:59   Have you guys seen the new moment thing?

00:59:01   - I don't even know what anyone's talking about with that.

00:59:03   - Yeah, neither do I.

00:59:04   - Yeah, I like the fact that like,

00:59:05   that's the Twitter that we don't use.

00:59:07   Like the Twitter of people who use the official client.

00:59:09   It's like, it's everybody who's not a tech nerd

00:59:11   and cable sasser, I think.

00:59:12   Other people who use the official Twitter client.

00:59:15   - And Vitice, I think.

00:59:16   - Yeah, maybe.

00:59:17   - I think even he finally went back.

00:59:18   I don't know.

00:59:19   - Here's the thing.

00:59:20   I still launched the official,

00:59:21   I have the official client installed and I still launch it every once in a while, mostly

00:59:24   because I don't know, this is irrational, but I don't, when people send me Twitter DMs,

00:59:30   all of the third party clients I feel nervous about whether I'm correctly using them to

00:59:34   send DMs and the official Twitter client has a more reassuring interface for DMs I've found.

00:59:39   Even Tweetbot 4 which I just installed tonight, I was going to do some DMs over there and

00:59:43   I hit like the plus button and typed in someone's name and it didn't come up in the search and

00:59:47   I'm like, well I know this person follows me but I don't follow them and it's not coming

00:59:50   and I don't know how to send this person a message,

00:59:52   and I'm always afraid to do D space, you know,

00:59:54   the old ways.

00:59:55   The old ways may be the best ways,

00:59:57   but at this point, I'm so nervous

00:59:59   that some Twitter client is not going to honor the D space,

01:00:02   whatever name, and I'm going to publicly tweet something

01:00:04   that I'm trying to DM.

01:00:05   So anyway, all this to say is that I do launch

01:00:07   the official Twitter client, you know,

01:00:09   maybe once a month or so, and just,

01:00:12   I can't make heads or tails of it in there.

01:00:13   I don't know what's going on.

01:00:14   I just wanna get the hell out of there

01:00:15   and back to any other client as fast as I can.

01:00:19   - Just for what it's worth, Jon,

01:00:20   if you ever need a DM guinea pig,

01:00:22   I'm happy to be that guy.

01:00:23   I'm here for you.

01:00:24   - No, that's the problem.

01:00:25   Like it'll work on you.

01:00:26   And then like, I'll accidentally put an extra space in

01:00:29   or use a capital D because I didn't notice

01:00:31   that the shift key was auto down.

01:00:32   And just, I just feel,

01:00:33   I want to read more reassuring GUI interfaces.

01:00:35   Like you're in the DM zone now.

01:00:37   And first you're gonna pick the person you're DMing

01:00:39   by tapping on them, like not typing their name.

01:00:42   And the next is, okay, this is a DM to this person.

01:00:45   The UI clearly states that you're in a DM to this person,

01:00:47   type your DM here.

01:00:48   And the only thing you can do from that screen is type a DM, right?

01:00:52   I'm really nervous about just the generic field.

01:00:55   Even though I used to do it back in the old days, especially now that DM length limits

01:00:57   are up and people are using it more like I am, I just want to get the hell off Twitter

01:01:01   DM as fast as possible because I'm so afraid that I'm going to accidentally start, you

01:01:05   know, put something in public that shouldn't be.

01:01:08   That's bad enough with like iMessages with everything in one window.

01:01:10   I'm constantly sending people the wrong message because I didn't notice which thing is selected

01:01:12   in the sidebar because it's a single window interface.

01:01:15   You need your windows.

01:01:16   I know.

01:01:17   ADM remembers the size and position of the windows for each individual person.

01:01:22   I'm way less likely to do wrong window in ADM than I am in the admin messages.

01:01:27   And historically, like, I just did it the other day.

01:01:29   I'm pretty much average.

01:01:31   Every other month I send someone the wrong message in iMessage.

01:01:35   And ADM, I think I've maybe done it once in three years.

01:01:39   I can't believe you still use ADM.

01:01:41   Well, I mean, I can't with all you iMessage people.

01:01:44   Sorry.

01:01:45   - Sorry.

01:01:46   (laughing)

01:01:47   - Yeah, I signed out of my AIM name,

01:01:49   I think a couple of years ago,

01:01:51   and just, like I just removed it from iChat,

01:01:53   and just like, "Ah, I'm done."

01:01:55   - Yeah, I think pretty much everyone I converse with

01:01:58   in a way that I would previously have described

01:02:00   as instant messaging, it's all iMessage,

01:02:03   or very rarely, just text messages

01:02:05   that I'm typing on my Mac.

01:02:08   - Our final sponsor this week is Fracture.

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01:05:07   - Excellent.

01:05:08   So Tweetbot 4 came out, finally, and it's really good.

01:05:13   I'm really liking it.

01:05:15   And I was talking about this recently on another show,

01:05:20   and I have nothing against Twitterific.

01:05:23   I love Craig Hockenberry to death, and I like Twitterific,

01:05:28   but it doesn't operate the way my brain operates,

01:05:32   and that doesn't make it wrong by any stretch.

01:05:33   And clearly, Jon, it operates the way your brain operates.

01:05:36   - Is it just the unified timeline?

01:05:38   - No, the unified timeline doesn't bother me,

01:05:40   but the way Tweetbot has the,

01:05:44   well, I'm thinking specifically about the phone,

01:05:46   and I used Twitter, if it's more on the iPad,

01:05:50   and I don't have my iPad within arm's reach,

01:05:51   but looking at replies, I know there was a tab for that.

01:05:56   Gosh, it's a very valid question

01:05:59   that I can't remember off the top of my head

01:06:01   what would bother me about it,

01:06:02   but any time I went to drill deeper

01:06:05   into a conversation, for example. Something about it was always backwards from what I

01:06:09   expected. It's just things didn't work the way I expected them to, whereas in Tweetbot,

01:06:17   everything worked the way I expected it to. I'll have to take it as homework to come up

01:06:20   with some specifics for next week.

01:06:22   Rob Markman Was it like the swipe directions and stuff?

01:06:25   It's like sometimes swipe directions are like muscle memory. Like, I don't--if you ask me,

01:06:29   I don't even know what the swipe directions are to show the conversation and--or replies

01:06:33   and stuff in Twitter, my fingers just do them. It's kind of like Emacs key combos, I've realized

01:06:37   now with new people at work who I try to tell Emacs key things to, that I don't know what the

01:06:43   keys are. My hands know, but I don't know. And I try to explain it and I say the wrong thing and

01:06:48   they try it and like I tried that and nothing happened. I'm like, I guess that's not it. And

01:06:52   I said, I have to put my hands on the keyboard and just do this. I'm like, oh yeah, it's control x b,

01:06:57   but it's not control. Anyway, like... In all fairness, nobody knows what Emacs

01:07:03   Some people know them but like but muscle memory it's it with iOS apps with gestures

01:07:06   I find this true a lot of the case where you just get used to like

01:07:09   And it's weird to say like is it swipe to the left it depends on how you conceptualize it like am I revealing more information?

01:07:15   From the right or am I moving the virtual tile to the left?

01:07:18   I know tweetbot has like the controls on the bottom and

01:07:21   Twitterific like doesn't reveal an extra set of controls on the bottom and anyway

01:07:26   I I can see how the gestures might be different

01:07:28   But I think that's like a surmountable,

01:07:30   like the muscle memory is a surmountable thing.

01:07:32   But anyway, Tweetbot's fine.

01:07:34   I've got it installed.

01:07:35   Twitteriffic is fine.

01:07:36   They got it installed.

01:07:37   Unified timeline is my big feature.

01:07:38   But other than that, I feel like it's like six of one,

01:07:40   half of another than the other.

01:07:42   - And that's probably true.

01:07:43   And the thing of it is, is that just for me,

01:07:46   it's gestures, it's some of the ways things are displayed.

01:07:49   I'm actually opening it on my phone,

01:07:51   even though I don't typically use,

01:07:52   I never use Twitteriffic on my phone.

01:07:54   Just some of the stuff was just kind of backwards

01:07:56   and weird to me.

01:07:57   When I swipe to see a conversation, the thing--

01:08:01   although Tweetbot is now doing this, which kind of

01:08:04   drives me crazy.

01:08:04   But the tweet that I was looking into the conversation

01:08:09   for, so kind of the subject of that gesture, is all the way

01:08:12   at the bottom, which drives me crazy.

01:08:13   And now Tweetbot's doing that, which drives me insane.

01:08:17   That always kind of annoyed me.

01:08:19   Let's see.

01:08:20   Replying was always basically OK.

01:08:23   I don't know.

01:08:23   I'll have to play around with it again and see what it was

01:08:26   that bothered me.

01:08:27   But maybe it just does come down to gestures, just being backwards from what I'm expecting.

01:08:31   In any case, Tweetbot is out, it includes the iPad app.

01:08:35   I love it, I think it's great.

01:08:36   I like the new activity tab.

01:08:39   I'm a little sad that a while ago now the retweets tab kind of died in a fire, which

01:08:45   I used to like looking at.

01:08:46   Yeah, I missed that too.

01:08:48   I campaigned during the beta, but the activity screen went out.

01:08:53   Yeah, I did the same and I was told that in certain terms it's not happening.

01:08:57   But I do like the activity screen.

01:08:59   I think it's kind of cool.

01:09:01   Definitely not something I should be looking at because the last thing I need to do is

01:09:03   be looking at Twitter more and trying to engage with my brand more.

01:09:08   But nevertheless I do like it.

01:09:09   I think it's cool.

01:09:10   But there was a lot of anger as with every time that the Tweetbots, excuse me, Tapbots

01:09:16   guys release a new version that costs money.

01:09:20   People are really upset about paying $5 for an app

01:09:22   that if they're anything like me,

01:09:23   they use for hours every single day.

01:09:26   And jeez, just when are we gonna get off this treadmill?

01:09:29   - Well, you know, I wonder like,

01:09:32   how much of it is just people who can be safely ignored?

01:09:34   You know, because the reality is they still hit

01:09:36   number one paid app on the chart.

01:09:39   I don't know where they are now,

01:09:40   but they hit that on their launch day.

01:09:41   So, you know, it's selling well.

01:09:43   You're always gonna have, when you have that many people,

01:09:46   you're gonna have a lot of people who complain.

01:09:48   and it's always just a percentage of the user base

01:09:51   who's gonna be angry no matter what.

01:09:53   The question is are there more than what could be expected

01:09:58   for that number of people?

01:09:59   And honestly, I don't think there are.

01:10:00   I mean, I don't see their support email,

01:10:02   and I don't read all their tweets, so I don't know,

01:10:03   but from just what I've heard here and there,

01:10:06   what I've seen, I looked at their App Store reviews,

01:10:08   and it doesn't seem like it's any worse

01:10:11   than what you'd expect from any app

01:10:13   that had that many people using it.

01:10:15   So yeah, they charge for an upgrade.

01:10:17   Who cares?

01:10:18   The people who care are people who, you know,

01:10:21   I think we'd all be better off just ignoring those people,

01:10:25   honestly.

01:10:26   - Yeah, I think you're right.

01:10:27   But I love the new app, I think it's great.

01:10:29   I have always loved Tweetbot,

01:10:31   I will probably forever love Tweetbot.

01:10:33   Marco, I assume you're into it as well, you're digging it?

01:10:36   - Yeah, I mean, I've been using it for a while,

01:10:38   and I really like it.

01:10:39   - Jon, is it just not even worth you looking,

01:10:41   I mean, I know you said you installed it,

01:10:42   but not even worth you taking seriously

01:10:44   because no unified timeline?

01:10:46   It's my backup Twitter client.

01:10:47   Like if I want, if something is wonky,

01:10:50   or if I want to make sure this is the client issue,

01:10:52   or if I want to, you know, use the activity view,

01:10:55   I don't think I would ever use that,

01:10:56   but if it's, that's an example of a feature

01:10:57   that Twitter doesn't have,

01:10:58   and if I wanted something like that, I would go there.

01:11:01   So it's like Twitter, I think,

01:11:02   is what I use every day, all day.

01:11:03   Tweetbot, if I feel like I want to try something

01:11:05   in a different client, and then finally following

01:11:07   all the way back to the official client,

01:11:08   if there's something that is only supported

01:11:10   in the official client, or I want to see

01:11:12   what it's like in the official client, or whatever.

01:11:14   So I've always got Tweetbot installed,

01:11:16   but it's on like another page of icons.

01:11:19   It's not in a folder, it's out of a folder.

01:11:21   The official Twitter one is in a folder.

01:11:23   But yeah, I keep it around and I always buy it and upgrade it.

01:11:25   Maybe it's I'm wasting my money on it buying an app

01:11:28   that I'm gonna launch like five times

01:11:29   before the next upgrade, but I like seeing

01:11:32   what's happening in the Twitter client space.

01:11:34   I spend a lot of time in Twitter.

01:11:36   - Yep, same here.

01:11:37   - Yeah, I mean, this is my most used app on the iPhone,

01:11:41   no question, and on the Mac, it's up there.

01:11:44   on the Mac maybe Mail and Safari beat it,

01:11:47   but otherwise it's my most used app,

01:11:49   which is really sad, but the fact is,

01:11:51   - Yeah, me too.

01:11:51   - Yeah, like as you mentioned,

01:11:54   it's part of so many of our professional and social lives.

01:11:59   It's all intertwined in there,

01:12:01   and it's very hard to get out of that.

01:12:04   So, I don't know.

01:12:06   I think Twitter is here to stay for a while for a lot of us,

01:12:12   And if you're gonna be using Twitter,

01:12:15   one of these apps that's not the official Twitter app

01:12:17   is usually the right move.

01:12:18   And Tweetbot is the one that fits me best.

01:12:20   As you mentioned, I've tried Twitterific.

01:12:23   I can see why people like it,

01:12:25   but it doesn't fit me as well.

01:12:27   - Yep, I completely agree.

01:12:28   - So yeah, to me this is a great update,

01:12:32   and I'm happy with it.

01:12:34   All right, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:12:37   Squarespace, MailRoute, and Fracture.

01:12:40   And we will see you next week.

01:12:42   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:12:49   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:12:52   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:12:55   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:13:00   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:13:03   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:13:06   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:13:11   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:13:15   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:13:19   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:13:24   Auntie Marco Arment

01:13:26   S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:13:31   It's accidental

01:13:34   They didn't mean to

01:13:37   Accidental

01:13:39   ♫ Tech podcast so long

01:13:43   - You bought your Tesla yet?

01:13:48   - Yeah, I bought it with all the piece money

01:13:49   and then had to return it.

01:13:50   - Oh, that sucks.

01:13:52   Man, tough luck.

01:13:53   - I keep seeing a red one in town.

01:13:55   Somebody in town has the red P85D.

01:13:58   And it looks really good.

01:13:59   So I think I'm gonna go red if I do it.

01:14:01   I still, before I make a final decision,

01:14:03   I still do wanna do one more test drive.

01:14:05   And I would like to test drive the non-P version,

01:14:09   just the 85 or 90D, because that's the one

01:14:12   I would probably want to get.

01:14:14   I don't think I wanna go all the way to the P,

01:14:17   just because even though I did love driving it,

01:14:20   it's like 20 grand more, mostly for this insane mode

01:14:25   that I actually found too fast and slightly unpleasant.

01:14:30   - You have to try the ludicrous mode though.

01:14:33   Maybe that goes, it wraps around.

01:14:34   It's like shooting the moon, right?

01:14:36   It wraps around and it becomes sublime, right?

01:14:38   - So what's the 95D has ludicrous mode?

01:14:40   - No, 90 only, but yeah, it only has 90 right now.

01:14:43   - What is the 90D?

01:14:44   It's not even shown on the website.

01:14:45   - It's just a range boost on the 85.

01:14:47   You pay like an extra three grand,

01:14:48   you get, it's just a bigger battery.

01:14:50   - But that's the one with ludicrous mode, right?

01:14:53   Which is the step up from insane mode.

01:14:54   - Yeah, well you can get any of them in that capacity,

01:14:57   but ludicrous mode requires it.

01:15:00   But it doesn't, I mean, I'm definitely not doing

01:15:02   ludicrous mode, that's, you know.

01:15:03   - You have to try it at least once,

01:15:05   like I said, it could wrap around, you don't know.

01:15:07   (laughing)

01:15:09   Yeah.

01:15:09   - So wait, so I'm sorry, you said you,

01:15:10   which one do you think you want?

01:15:12   - The one I probably would get would be the 90D.

01:15:14   So it is the one that is roughly as fast as the M5,

01:15:18   and it is the longest range you can get in their lineup.

01:15:22   The things about the P version,

01:15:25   like it basically gets you like red brake calipers,

01:15:29   which look cool, but I don't need them,

01:15:30   and the option for a carbon fiber spoiler,

01:15:33   which I think actually looks bad.

01:15:34   So, you know, eh, I don't really need it.

01:15:37   And for the dip for that, like I wouldn't feel good

01:15:39   spending that much extra money on it

01:15:41   if the 85/90D is almost as good.

01:15:46   I also like, you know, the fact is my car right now

01:15:52   is faster than what I usually can use with it.

01:15:55   You know, I live in a neighborhood.

01:15:56   I drive around residential streets most of the time.

01:15:59   I can't and really shouldn't have a faster car

01:16:01   than what I have now.

01:16:02   I don't even need a car that's as fast as the one I have now.

01:16:05   And I'm also, as I mentioned once before,

01:16:07   I'm kind of over having a loud car.

01:16:12   I never liked my cars to be loud.

01:16:17   I've been getting cars that are loud

01:16:19   because I like the way they drive

01:16:21   and I like that they're fast and sporty.

01:16:23   But I always feel self-conscious

01:16:25   with driving a very loud car on a residential street.

01:16:29   And so, and it seems like, you know,

01:16:32   the loudness of the M cars is completely artificial.

01:16:37   Like, not even just with the radio in the car,

01:16:39   but even the outside noise.

01:16:40   Like, you can put any muffler on there

01:16:42   that sounds like anything you want,

01:16:44   and the only reason they make them loud

01:16:45   is because a lot of people want that, and it sounds fast.

01:16:48   And so a lot of people who are buying fast cars--

01:16:50   - Oh, it sounds so good.

01:16:51   - Right, a lot of people who are buying fast cars want,

01:16:53   they demand that it be loud.

01:16:57   Like that's, but to me it always, it feels so,

01:17:01   just like pandering, it feels so artificial,

01:17:04   it almost feels insulting to my intelligence

01:17:06   that like they take this car and they just make it louder

01:17:09   because they think I will require that.

01:17:12   I don't know.

01:17:13   So I don't, that doesn't feel great to me

01:17:16   and you know as I'm getting older

01:17:19   and like you know I have my kid now

01:17:21   and I'm around a lot of other people with kids

01:17:23   and there's kids all over the block

01:17:24   I'm driving this loud car down the street.

01:17:27   I get a little self-conscious about it,

01:17:28   so I'm over having a loud car.

01:17:31   And if you look at BMW's lineup,

01:17:34   the only way to get a transmission that I would tolerate

01:17:38   is either to have a loud M car,

01:17:40   which by the way, still there's no all-wheel drive version,

01:17:42   unless you count the X5/6Ms, which shouldn't exist.

01:17:46   So if you count only the real M cars,

01:17:50   there is still, and I know, please everyone,

01:17:53   I know that the next M5 generation is very likely to have all-wheel drive, but that's

01:17:57   still a couple years out, and it would still be very loud. So, you know, I think I'm

01:18:03   out of the BMW line unless I'm willing to go down back to the 3 Series and get basically

01:18:09   Casey's car, which is a great car. The one you have is a great car, the 335 E92, E90

01:18:16   Series, whatever it is. That is a great car. However, I do like the size and the extra

01:18:22   luxuries of the 5 Series, I would miss a lot of that.

01:18:26   And also, that car's not incredibly quiet either,

01:18:29   but it's not as loud as the M cars.

01:18:31   But also, I don't like the F30, I really don't.

01:18:34   Like, I, Tifs is decent, it's a very good all-arounder,

01:18:39   but there's like certain things about it I don't like,

01:18:42   and I think the regular sedan version of it,

01:18:45   it just, I don't, I think it feels cheaper

01:18:48   than the E90 Series, and it doesn't feel as good,

01:18:51   I'm not crazy about it.

01:18:54   CMF in the chat pointing out the 550,

01:18:56   the 550X would be the one I would want

01:18:58   'cause I like all the drive.

01:19:01   The 550, the problem with that is it is not available

01:19:03   in a transmission that I would tolerate.

01:19:06   It is only auto.

01:19:08   And Tif's car has the sportiest auto BMW currently sells,

01:19:13   although I haven't tried,

01:19:14   I think the new 7 Series has a slightly sportier one,

01:19:17   but it's like nine gears now or something, it's crazy.

01:19:20   So the sportiest one that is available

01:19:24   that is still automatic,

01:19:25   I drive that one all the time on Tif's car,

01:19:27   and I drive it in automatic mode

01:19:29   because manually shifting it sucks.

01:19:31   Like it is no substitute for either a DCT or a real stick.

01:19:36   It is no substitute.

01:19:37   So I would require either a DCT or a real stick

01:19:43   or no gears whatsoever,

01:19:45   which is what the electric cars give me.

01:19:47   (laughing)

01:19:48   typical automatic transmission is just not an option for me.

01:19:52   And by the way, on the noise front, if Eddy Cue or any other members of the Ferrari board

01:19:55   are listening, disregard Marco, I still want to hear the sound of a flat-plane crank V8

01:20:01   in my Ferrari.

01:20:03   It's not just the volume, it's like, you don't like it because it's loud.

01:20:08   People do like it to be loud, but it's also like the sound that it makes.

01:20:11   I don't think anybody wants the Viper V10 to be loud because it sounds weird, because

01:20:14   V10s sound weird.

01:20:16   a Ferrari V8 does not sound weird. It sounds like beautiful music. And so that's what

01:20:21   people want. Not just the sound, but a specific sound, whether it's a burbling V8 of like

01:20:25   a Mustang or something, which is kind of what your car has, which is kind of weird and unseemly

01:20:28   that it has the burble, or the screaming wail of the flat-plane V8. And that's what we

01:20:36   Italians want.

01:20:37   No, and I like the sound my car makes. I really do like it when I want that kind of thing,

01:20:44   but that is almost none of the time that I'm driving it.

01:20:47   And actually, I don't like the sound of the new M3.

01:20:49   I think the new M3 sounds terrible.

01:20:52   I've now heard them in person a few times,

01:20:54   and I think they really cranked up the sound of that V6,

01:20:58   trying to get it to sound really impressive

01:20:59   like the old V8 did, and it just doesn't.

01:21:03   The new M3, I think, sounds like a cheap car

01:21:08   that somebody put a cheap aftermarket pipe on

01:21:10   to sound faster.

01:21:11   - Yeah, that's the problem all the cars have,

01:21:12   including even Ferrari, because they added the turbos to the, whatever, the 488 or whatever

01:21:15   the new one is, that like, well, that tends to muffle some of the sound, and that sound

01:21:21   that you want is not—and they, Ferrari has struggled mightily to try to get that sound

01:21:26   back.

01:21:27   I wonder if, like, by the time we're, you know, old and gray and grandparents, that

01:21:31   Ferrari will be selling, like, a throwback model, where it's like a normally aspirated

01:21:34   V8 with the old geometries and everything, just because by then everything will be, like,

01:21:39   electric or hybrid, and it'll be impossible to get that sound, because it'll all be,

01:21:42   tiny small displacement turbo engines like they kind of are now in every other car.

01:21:45   And it's like, you know, like, well, they start selling like retro models. Like,

01:21:49   this is not a modern car, but this is like, it's like a scale model or not a scale model,

01:21:54   like a reproduction. So it's got some modern things in it, but the powertrain is a complete

01:21:58   throwback. I don't know if it'll even be legal to sell those in the United States at that point, but

01:22:02   You could even have like this weird transmission where you need three legs in order to operate.

01:22:07   Yeah, like a big silver ball on a big silver stick.

01:22:09   Wouldn't that be weird?

01:22:11   - God, that'd be crazy.

01:22:12   To go back to the Tesla, I freaking love

01:22:14   that the Tesla, or the Model S page on the Tesla website

01:22:19   outlining battery performance and drive options.

01:22:22   All I see on this page is 5.5 seconds, 5.4 seconds,

01:22:27   5.2 seconds, 4.2 seconds, 3.1 seconds,

01:22:31   or if you'd like to pony up for the ludicrous speed upgrade,

01:22:34   2.8 seconds.

01:22:35   Like this is how I would choose the car,

01:22:36   is simply how fast would you like to go?

01:22:39   Like how amazing is this?

01:22:41   - And by the way, the chat room was like,

01:22:43   noting like that I made a Spaceball joke.

01:22:46   I didn't make a Spaceball joke.

01:22:48   Tesla made it.

01:22:49   These are the actual names.

01:22:50   Insane Mode and Ludicrous Mode are their brand names

01:22:53   for these like software update packages or whatever.

01:22:55   Like they are making Spaceball references, not me.

01:22:58   - Yeah, it's amazing.

01:22:59   I would also like to go on record

01:23:01   that I will be completely stunned

01:23:05   and will buy you a coffee of your choice, Marco.

01:23:08   as much as I hate to say this, if you do not end up with the maximum level Tesla available,

01:23:15   because that is the only way you know how to buy things.

01:23:17   Well, I definitely would not get ludicrous. You know, it is still possible.

01:23:21   Well, no, but you say that. Here's how it would happen. If the seats that you find the

01:23:26   most comfortable are only available in the one ludicrous, you're getting in the car.

01:23:31   No, it's so true.

01:23:32   The only—if I do get a Tesla, which is looking increasingly likely, but again, I still do

01:23:36   want to drive one again before I make that decision. But if I do get a Tesla, it's really

01:23:40   to me between the 90D and the P90D. I would not get the insane, crazy, I would get insane

01:23:46   but not ludicrous. These names are stupid.

01:23:48   Yeah, to me, the P90D counts. I agree with you that ludicrous speed is pretty much not

01:23:54   going to happen. I will agree with that.

01:23:56   Right. Like if I bought a new M5, I would not get the competition package, which is

01:24:00   like, it's a similar kind of price to gain ratio there, you know? Because that is crazy.

01:24:06   and I don't care, I don't need it.

01:24:08   The only reason I would go with the P85 or P90D in this case

01:24:11   would be if the 90 really just feels anemic,

01:24:15   and I don't think it does.

01:24:16   I think the 85/90D is really very similar

01:24:21   in performance to the M5.

01:24:23   - It's similar, but if memory serves,

01:24:25   I don't recall the M5 0-60 time off the top of my head,

01:24:29   but I believe it is--

01:24:29   - Something like 4.2 or something?

01:24:31   - See, I think it's a little quicker than that.

01:24:33   - Maybe 3.9, I don't know.

01:24:34   - See, that's the thing.

01:24:36   The 85D is listed at 4.2, and I think you're right.

01:24:39   I think the M5 is just eking it in under four seconds.

01:24:43   And I bet you that'll be enough of a difference,

01:24:46   as silly as it sounds, that that's

01:24:47   going to push you to the P85D.

01:24:49   Because all he'll feel is the instant torque

01:24:52   from zero miles an hour.

01:24:53   Like, he'll feel the acceleration

01:24:54   from zero to 20 and 30.

01:24:55   Like I said, I think the only thing that

01:24:57   will drive him to the big fancy miles

01:24:59   is trim level or option differences.

01:25:01   And there really aren't-- you have to go to the P

01:25:04   if you want the spoiler that I think looks bad in person.

01:25:08   I don't know what the deal is with these spoiler designs.

01:25:11   So the problem is the Tesla Model S

01:25:14   is a kind of like a fat-bottomed car.

01:25:16   It's one of those like wide bottoms

01:25:18   that a lot of large shadans have these days.

01:25:21   - Big bottom, you're making a spinal-type reference

01:25:23   and you don't even know it.

01:25:24   - Right, exactly.

01:25:24   So whatever reference I'm making,

01:25:26   it has like a wider bottom

01:25:27   than like the passenger cabin above it.

01:25:29   So it kind of looks like a hovercraft almost,

01:25:33   I can't even just cushion around the base.

01:25:35   And the spoiler is not the full width of the trunk.

01:25:39   'Cause the full, like it's,

01:25:41   it almost looks like, - Yeah, this is no good.

01:25:42   - It looks like a mustache on all the stuff there.

01:25:45   - Well, you can't get the commercial skipping on the,

01:25:47   (laughing)

01:25:48   - That's all right, I feel too bad about it.

01:25:50   - They're not gonna give that to you in a software update,

01:25:52   they want you to get the whole new model.

01:25:54   - Yeah, looks like I can't get the red brake calipers.

01:25:57   But I can get everything else.

01:25:58   - Hugely, hugely important question.

01:26:01   I want you to think about this and choose wisely.

01:26:03   Will you or will you not get the rear-facing seats?

01:26:06   - That is a very good question.

01:26:07   - I'm kind of not kidding because, oh my God,

01:26:10   I remember having a wagon when we were kids

01:26:11   that had the rear-facing seats,

01:26:13   and it was terrible but also delightful.

01:26:15   - I'm gonna say, I gotta give a thumbs down on those.

01:26:19   - So we have some friends with the Tesla

01:26:21   and they have the rear-facing seats.

01:26:22   And it is really nice if you have to transport

01:26:26   a whole bunch of kids around, but we don't.

01:26:28   And I'm probably gonna be getting it

01:26:29   on a three-year lease, and it's like,

01:26:32   within the next three years,

01:26:33   am I gonna have three more kids?

01:26:35   Probably not.

01:26:36   - And also, you'd only put the kids

01:26:37   you don't really care about back there,

01:26:38   because that's like the death seat

01:26:40   in the case of a rear-end collision.

01:26:41   - Well, the rumor, or the story behind it

01:26:44   is that because Elon Musk has a bunch of kids,

01:26:46   he made those like the safest seats in the whole car.

01:26:48   There's like extra roll keg around it and everything, so.

01:26:51   - Well, there's five-point harness from the looks of it.

01:26:52   - Yeah, it is, and so,

01:26:54   and rear-facing is actually statistically safer.

01:26:57   That's why car seats for infants are rear-faced for a while,

01:27:00   basically as long as they can be.

01:27:01   So the safety is not as much of a concern for me there.

01:27:06   The biggest concern for me is, first of all,

01:27:09   that I just wouldn't use them.

01:27:10   Like I don't think I need them.

01:27:11   And also some of the owners who have them

01:27:15   say that the biggest problem back there

01:27:17   is that there's no HVAC stuff back there.

01:27:19   So it gets really hot.

01:27:20   'Cause they're sitting under the rear windshield.

01:27:23   And there's some vents that serve the back seats,

01:27:26   the regular back seats,

01:27:28   but they don't reach all the way back there.

01:27:29   So if it's like a hot, sunny day,

01:27:31   it's gonna be pretty hot back there.

01:27:33   It also is just kind of weird when you have to load

01:27:35   and unload your kid from your trunk.

01:27:37   But regardless, if I had a really big family,

01:27:41   I would consider it.

01:27:43   Although honestly the Model X I think would be

01:27:44   a much better way to serve that

01:27:46   'cause it's actually a proper three row car.

01:27:48   But this, yeah, for my needs, you know,

01:27:53   I have one kid I can foresee in the next three years

01:27:56   having at most two kids total.

01:27:58   So, you know, I really don't think I would need more than that.

01:28:03   So I'm not going to do the, I would not order that.

01:28:07   I like the, someone put in the chat room, a YouTube video of P85D versus the Ferrari

01:28:13   458.

01:28:14   And I just assumed the Ferrari would lose because, you know, it's an older model Ferrari

01:28:17   and the, it's a straight line test.

01:28:19   Obviously you're not doing handling tests in this giant battery, but yeah, so the Tesla

01:28:23   beats it off the line, but you wait a couple of seconds, the Ferrari passes it and I feel

01:28:26   better about it.

01:28:27   - And we're all right in the world again.

01:28:29   - Yeah, no, I mean, and this, you know,

01:28:30   I would definitely take this like, you know,

01:28:33   down a little, like sporty level.

01:28:35   I wouldn't get the giant 21 inch wheels,

01:28:37   you know, I'd just get the 19s,

01:28:40   which are still big, but, you know, it's just,

01:28:43   yeah, I feel like I've had my,

01:28:45   my like really hardcore sports car,

01:28:49   I guess, well, people would question that,

01:28:50   but I've had my like super sports car phase,

01:28:53   and I think I'm moving past that now,

01:28:54   into just, okay, I want things to still be nice and fast,

01:28:57   but I also want it to be quiet.

01:28:59   - I like how your super sports car

01:29:00   was already an old man's car, like the M5,

01:29:03   like the 5 Series, it's already the grandpa car,

01:29:06   like it wasn't even the M3, like you did have your 1M,

01:29:09   I understand, like that was kind of that phase.

01:29:11   - Yeah, I had that for like eight months.

01:29:12   - Yeah, but you went right to the grandpa,

01:29:14   it's like, you know what, I need something

01:29:15   with bench seats in the front.

01:29:17   - Yeah, no, and I will also, so Twilling in the chat

01:29:20   is asking, so you won't miss shifting.

01:29:23   I think I talked about this when I test drove the Tesla,

01:29:25   but the big thing is,

01:29:27   the reason I shift is not because I love shifting so much.

01:29:34   I enjoy it, it's fun, but I don't really need to shift.

01:29:38   The reason I shift my car is now.

01:29:41   The reason I drove stick as long as I could

01:29:43   and now I drive the DCT

01:29:44   and why I don't like automatics ever

01:29:47   is because I always know what I want the car to be doing.

01:29:52   I always know, and you guys know this,

01:29:53   'cause you drive stick, I always,

01:29:55   I know that if I'm approaching something

01:29:58   where I'm gonna stop, I know I can downshift

01:30:00   to do that or whatever, I know what gear

01:30:02   I want to be in at any given point.

01:30:04   And I know things that an automatic transmission can't know.

01:30:07   And I can, and so I always want power

01:30:10   to be accessible to me at any speed.

01:30:12   And I keep the gear such that I can do that.

01:30:15   So there are things that I really enjoy

01:30:18   about being able to control the power delivery of the car

01:30:22   through shifting manually.

01:30:24   And with the DCT, the reason I don't,

01:30:27   like I don't miss the clutch at all.

01:30:29   The DCT is, a lot of people who haven't driven them

01:30:33   might assume that it's like the like Tiptronic manual

01:30:37   shifting mode of automatic transmissions, and it's not.

01:30:39   It really is much more like a clutchless stick.

01:30:42   Like it is really, it behaves a lot more like a stick

01:30:46   than it does, it does not behave like an automatic

01:30:49   that takes your suggestion sometimes.

01:30:51   So it is great for me because I never cared

01:30:55   about the clutch, I just cared about being sure

01:30:57   I knew what gear I was in and selecting it

01:30:58   and not having it second guess me

01:31:00   and not having nine years to pick from.

01:31:02   So the electric, when I was driving the Tesla

01:31:05   on that test drive, the reason I didn't miss

01:31:09   having some kind of gear shift ability

01:31:11   is because it was always with power available

01:31:15   doing the right thing.

01:31:16   It was always doing what I wanted.

01:31:18   I never felt the need to manually control it

01:31:21   because just the nature of electrics being basically

01:31:23   gearless, it was just, it didn't, it removed the need

01:31:28   for me to do any of that.

01:31:29   So all the reasons why I shift no longer applied

01:31:32   and were no longer necessary.

01:31:33   Now, there are, you know, I would probably,

01:31:35   I would probably still miss it to a certain degree

01:31:37   just because it's like this fun activity, you know,

01:31:39   you kind of feel like you're doing something manually,

01:31:41   it's kind of fun.

01:31:42   But while I was driving the Tesla, I didn't miss it at all.

01:31:46   And that is something that I've never been able to say

01:31:49   about an automatic, even the best automatics,

01:31:51   even when trying to manually shift them,

01:31:53   I've never been able to say that for an automatic.

01:31:56   - Yeah, I don't drive DCT cars regularly.

01:31:59   In fact, to the best of my recollection,

01:32:02   the last DCT car I drove was yours.

01:32:05   And I do like it as that,

01:32:11   as a two-pedal transmission can go.

01:32:13   But there is nothing quite like ripping off

01:32:17   like a really great one-two upshift

01:32:19   or like a three-two downshift while you're turning,

01:32:21   while you're braking.

01:32:23   There's nothing quite like that.

01:32:24   And I'm skeptical my next car will have three pedals

01:32:29   because I don't know that whatever car

01:32:31   I end up wanting to buy will be available that way.

01:32:34   But I'm gonna hold onto them as long as I possibly can.

01:32:38   And I'm going to, I'm already ruing the day

01:32:41   that I'm gonna have to give that up.

01:32:43   It's so sad.

01:32:46   - You'll survive.

01:32:48   - I will, but I'll be sad about it.

01:32:50   - I'll be, you think you'll be sad, I'll be the saddest

01:32:53   because I, well, Casey, did you ever have a non-stick car?

01:32:57   - Nope.

01:32:58   - All right, well anyway, both of us have never had

01:33:00   a non-stick car, but when you, when the time finally comes

01:33:03   and you can't get the car that you want,

01:33:05   you're going to get like, you know,

01:33:08   an automated manual essentially.

01:33:09   I'm going to be stuck with an actual slushbox torque converter automatic or worse a CVT.

01:33:16   That's what I'm going to be stuck with and the range of cars that I buy they're not going to

01:33:20   have a really nice you know snappy automated manual they're going to have a slushbox or I

01:33:27   won't buy a CVT I just won't like I'll find a different car. Maybe that can finally push you to

01:33:32   get like the car that you really that you really want. Yeah I think Honda's do have that on several

01:33:37   of all the models, I just don't look at those at all.

01:33:39   But like that is the worst.

01:33:40   But you know, every time I bring my car in

01:33:42   and they have like a loaner car for you to drive

01:33:43   or whatever, I just, automatics,

01:33:45   like I can't believe people live like this.

01:33:47   I just can't take it.

01:33:48   - Yeah, it's the worst.

01:33:49   Like I drive Erin's car periodically

01:33:52   and I really genuinely like her car.

01:33:54   She has a couple of generation old now Mazda 6

01:33:57   and it's a very nice car.

01:33:59   But that transmission, oh God, it's so terrible.

01:34:02   - You just like, you push the panel

01:34:03   and you just hear the engine is like,

01:34:05   what are you doing engine?

01:34:06   and then you have to figure out,

01:34:07   what do I have to do with this pedal

01:34:08   to make you understand that you are in the wrong gear

01:34:11   right now and then it's like, all right.

01:34:14   It is the worst.

01:34:17   - It is the worst.

01:34:18   It is absolutely the worst.

01:34:20   - Yeah, it automatics, it makes it feel like

01:34:23   you're just wasting this good engine.

01:34:25   It's like you have this perfectly good engine in there

01:34:26   that if you just connect it directly to the wheels,

01:34:28   it would work great, but you don't.

01:34:30   You have this maple syrup between--

01:34:33   - It's just in the wrong gear too much of the time

01:34:34   because it can't read your mind.

01:34:36   And so the only thing it has like, well,

01:34:37   I can look at all my sensors and all the pedal position.

01:34:40   I'll try to figure out what you mean.

01:34:41   And it's like, you don't know what I'm about to take this turn.

01:34:44   I should already be in second gear.

01:34:46   Exactly.

01:34:46   I don't know what gear you're in.

01:34:48   Like, it should-- like, I don't want

01:34:50   to have to do something with the controls of the car

01:34:51   to convince you to go into second.

01:34:53   You should already be there.

01:34:54   And I would be if I was driving the car, but I'm not.

01:34:56   Especially in cars that have no power like the ones that I buy.

01:34:59   It's really important to be in the right gear.

01:35:01   Otherwise, the thing just becomes a slug.

01:35:03   And then like in the middle of the turn,

01:35:04   lurches into whatever next gear you're supposed to be in.

01:35:06   It's just a mess.

01:35:08   - It's, God, it's rough.

01:35:09   - And I forget, I forget what it's like.

01:35:11   I think like, well, you know, modern Rotomax are good,

01:35:13   and maybe they are in like luxury cars and stuff,

01:35:15   like where it's-- - Nope.

01:35:16   - No, they're not.

01:35:17   I'm telling you, they're not.

01:35:18   Like, they're just as bad as, well, not just as bad,

01:35:21   but they're almost as bad.

01:35:22   - I mean, they have like nine gears now

01:35:24   on the fancy cars, right?

01:35:25   - Yeah, and that's one of the problems too.

01:35:27   Like, if you try to manually shift the automatics now,

01:35:30   like even the quote, sport automatics,

01:35:34   Like, TIFFS has eight gears.

01:35:36   The new 7 Series, I believe, has nine.

01:35:38   And the reason that they do this

01:35:40   for increased fuel efficiency,

01:35:41   and one of the ways they do this

01:35:42   is by cramming a whole bunch of gears

01:35:44   at the bottom of the range.

01:35:45   So these aren't all like additional overdrives.

01:35:47   - Yeah, yeah, they're slicing up the entire range

01:35:49   to give more granularity.

01:35:50   - Yeah, and especially, so at the bottom,

01:35:52   you have to shift around.

01:35:53   You have to, like, where they put gear number eight

01:35:56   on TIFFS' car is like where I would've,

01:35:58   it's like between, on a regular scale,

01:36:00   it's between like two and three,

01:36:02   which is a really frequently shifted range.

01:36:04   And so not only is that annoying

01:36:06   when you're manually shifting it,

01:36:07   but also when you're just driving it, you do feel that.

01:36:10   You feel that it's making more shifts,

01:36:11   it's making more transitions

01:36:13   than you would have to in a manual.

01:36:15   And also to choose fuel efficiency numbers,

01:36:18   it always, you know, it tries to jump as fast as it can

01:36:20   to the higher gears, and then when you step on it,

01:36:22   nothing happens, and you know,

01:36:24   they all have these like, you know, sport modes,

01:36:28   and those are all equally terrible just in different ways.

01:36:31   It just never does what you want.

01:36:34   And that's why we will always drive manual cars

01:36:37   as long as we are able to until it is no longer necessary.

01:36:41   - It's so true.

01:36:42   - Oh, we haven't even talked about the Model X.

01:36:44   That I think is a disaster.

01:36:45   And I guess he really wanted those weird doors,

01:36:49   but it's like, nope, bad idea, guy.

01:36:51   If you're gonna do one with gull wing doors,

01:36:53   it should have been the first frivolous one

01:36:54   that only rich people got,

01:36:55   not the second one that you're hoping,

01:36:56   like this is gonna be the mainstream one

01:36:58   'cause it's like a stupid crossover SUV

01:37:00   and it looks gross, it's like, it's not gonna be that cheap,

01:37:03   and those doors are ridiculous, and just no.

01:37:06   - No, I don't think the doors are as much of a big deal

01:37:10   in either direction as everyone else does.

01:37:12   - Oh, yeah, you say that,

01:37:13   but then you're gonna try to pop out quickly.

01:37:15   - They are a big deal, not because they're bad,

01:37:18   like you see all the videos of how they like

01:37:20   sort of squinch together and try to make room,

01:37:22   but because it is really hard

01:37:24   to make a door like that reliably.

01:37:26   It's not like there's like,

01:37:27   we've been making this kind of a door for 75 years,

01:37:30   we know how to make it really,

01:37:31   hell, it's really hard to make a regular door reliably,

01:37:33   like just ask Tesla all the,

01:37:35   the learning curve and just making a reliable, nice car.

01:37:38   I think they're finally kind of there with the Model S.

01:37:40   But this, I mean, nobody has made good,

01:37:44   reliable, problem-free gull wing doors,

01:37:46   including Mercedes.

01:37:47   Like just ask anyone who has one of those cars,

01:37:49   sometimes the door comes unlatched while you're driving

01:37:51   and just got like, it's,

01:37:52   I guess maybe they did it better on the modern version,

01:37:55   but the original gull wing was a mess.

01:37:56   Like, it's there for it to be a fanciful thrill,

01:38:00   but if this is gonna be your mainstream car,

01:38:01   like you know that's gonna be the main problem

01:38:03   with these cars is stupid crap with the doors.

01:38:05   - And plus you gotta wait an hour

01:38:06   for the damn things to open.

01:38:07   - Yeah, that part of it is not bad.

01:38:09   And I think that the design and saving space is not bad.

01:38:13   It's entirely because this is an exotic, weird design

01:38:15   that's going to have problems.

01:38:16   And I know they spent a long time trying

01:38:18   to make it reliable, but it's their first try.

01:38:20   It's guaranteed that this will not be as problem-free

01:38:22   as a regular car door, absolutely guaranteed.

01:38:26   None of this is making it in the show, is it?

01:38:28   - No.

01:38:29   - Oh, we should put this on SoundCloud

01:38:30   or whatever we used to do with ATPs

01:38:32   before ATP was a thing.

01:38:33   - But we always think people care,

01:38:36   but in reality, nobody cares.

01:38:37   - They don't, yeah.

01:38:38   - Eh, whatever.

01:38:39   (door slams)