133: You Have to Walk the Dog


00:00:00   You've been led astray. I gave you a good YouTube starting point and you quickly found

00:00:04   -- you quickly found a that. How many clicks did it take you to get to that?

00:00:10   Actually this is Facebook, but --

00:00:11   Oh, you started off at the bottom.

00:00:16   Do we have follow-up this week?

00:00:18   I put in the link here and I had to pronounce this person's name and I realize I haven't

00:00:21   followed the link.

00:00:22   Would you like a moment? Would you like me to stall for you for a moment?

00:00:27   Yeah, hang on a second.

00:00:29   So John, you didn't do your homework?

00:00:31   No, I did.

00:00:32   It's open in a tab right there.

00:00:34   I listened to it and it didn't help.

00:00:35   Oh, so it was lost.

00:00:36   It was lost amongst your tabs, was it?

00:00:38   It was lost.

00:00:39   It was right next to the ATP tab.

00:00:41   He knew exactly where it was the whole time.

00:00:43   Yep, totally.

00:00:44   That's right.

00:00:45   I just didn't actually click on it.

00:00:46   The keyboard, if you can't just open the tab, you have to actually go to the thing and play

00:00:48   it.

00:00:49   Anyway, this feedback is from Urka according to Google Translate, which I'm assured is

00:00:54   accurate in this case.

00:00:57   the eyesight replacement for the iPhone 6 Plus, like the problems that are having, you

00:01:02   can get it replaced under warranty or whatever.

00:01:05   This question is, "Is there a reason Apple can't just send a notification to the affected

00:01:08   devices?

00:01:09   Why do we have to go to like a web forum and enter your serial number to find out if your

00:01:12   device is the one that has the type of problem?"

00:01:16   And I thought that was an interesting question because there are two aspects of it.

00:01:20   One is the technical, could Apple even do that?

00:01:23   And second is the privacy related one.

00:01:26   Would Apple actually want to do that?

00:01:29   Technically speaking, I think Apple could do that.

00:01:34   Surely there is software running on iPhones that has access to the serial number information

00:01:40   like Apple software, even if third party apps don't.

00:01:42   Apple makes the OS so they can get that information.

00:01:47   But they would have to build that into the OS where periodically it phones home and says,

00:01:51   Are there any relevant recalls or updates for this thing?

00:01:55   If so, blah, blah, blah.

00:01:57   And the privacy aspect one is, does Apple

00:01:59   know that phone serial number XYZ

00:02:03   belongs to an individual person?

00:02:06   I suppose they do, because you've got the--

00:02:08   what do you call it-- find my iPhone type thing.

00:02:10   But I'm not sure what Apple does with that information.

00:02:13   So my answer to this feedback is, they probably could.

00:02:18   And I would imagine the reason they don't

00:02:21   is that they don't have the code for that built in.

00:02:24   And it's probably a low priority, since these recalls

00:02:26   don't happen that often.

00:02:28   And building it in is just--

00:02:30   that whole mechanism seems like it has the potential

00:02:33   to be difficult to implement in a way that doesn't expose more

00:02:39   information about a person to Apple,

00:02:42   because Apple generally doesn't want to know--

00:02:44   wants to know as little about you as possible,

00:02:46   and potentially to other things that are going to exploit

00:02:49   whatever hole this pokes in a thing that periodically

00:02:52   pulls some location and uploads information

00:02:56   about your phone to it.

00:02:56   So, I don't know, you guys have thoughts on that?

00:02:59   - Well, you know, I think they almost certainly

00:03:03   could do this kind of thing if they wanted to.

00:03:05   And there is one thing to consider also

00:03:09   that the quote recall or whatever it is,

00:03:12   the service extension, whatever technically it is,

00:03:15   they say multiple times on that page

00:03:19   that it only applies to iPhone 6 Plus's

00:03:22   with the serial number range that are in working order.

00:03:26   And so that probably gives them the ability to say,

00:03:28   well, this phone that you're handing us is all beat up

00:03:31   and we're not gonna repair this horribly beat up phone

00:03:34   with the broken screen and the dent all over it

00:03:36   for this camera thing 'cause you've obviously abused

00:03:39   this phone or it isn't in good working order.

00:03:40   So it gives them an out and there's no way for them

00:03:43   to know on the server side what kind of condition

00:03:47   your phone is in physically really

00:03:49   And so they probably don't want to send this

00:03:52   to people whose devices are ineligible.

00:03:54   Secondly--

00:03:55   - Oh, you think they're doing it to save money?

00:03:58   - Well, at least to save a lot of requests

00:04:03   from people who won't be satisfied.

00:04:04   But also, they might be doing it to save money.

00:04:07   They might actually say, you know,

00:04:10   this is really only affecting some of these phones.

00:04:12   And it says, it makes it kind of clear

00:04:16   in the language on the page that

00:04:18   In one place where it states the condition,

00:04:20   I believe the first time it states the conditions,

00:04:22   it says phones that are in good working order

00:04:24   and are exhibiting this problem.

00:04:27   And then the second time it mentions it,

00:04:28   it doesn't mention whether the phone

00:04:30   has to be exhibiting the problem to have the repair done.

00:04:33   But it looks like they're trying not to replace,

00:04:37   or not to service phones that don't necessarily need,

00:04:40   quote, need it, and that could be something like,

00:04:44   well, we're only gonna service the ones

00:04:46   whose cameras are actually showing this problem

00:04:47   according to a genius who looks at it,

00:04:49   or also it could mean we're only gonna service this problem

00:04:54   for people who notice the problem

00:04:56   and who care about the problem.

00:04:58   So it probably is, to some degree,

00:05:01   trying to minimize the number of people

00:05:02   who even know about this problem

00:05:04   and who go in to get things fixed

00:05:05   and who go in and load the Apple stores and the repairs,

00:05:09   the repair centers with even more people and money.

00:05:13   - Yeah, I was just about to say that it seems like

00:05:16   would be a tough thing to figure out. Let's assume they want to notify everyone. How do

00:05:21   you do that exactly? By that I mean, do you just send one massive notification to everyone

00:05:27   that has an affected device? That's probably unwise, because the Apple Store is going to

00:05:31   have a pretty crummy day the next few days. Do you do it in batches? Well, then the internet

00:05:35   eventually finds out that they're doing this in batches, and then the internet is enraged

00:05:40   because this iPhone issue you didn't even know you had isn't getting fixed at the schedule

00:05:44   you would like it to be fixed. And so how does that even work? It just seems like a

00:05:50   nightmare. There's no good reason for Apple to do this. I do agree with Urka, but I just,

00:05:58   I don't think that there's anything in it for Apple, and all it does is make things

00:06:02   more challenging for them. Yeah, it doesn't seem like an urgent issue.

00:06:06   As the chat room pointed out, they don't need to have the phones polling or anything. They

00:06:09   can just do a push notification. And the serial number, when you do "Find my iPhone" and list

00:06:13   all your devices, they know your devices, they have this information available to them.

00:06:17   And the OS wouldn't need the poll, they would just need to send out a push notification

00:06:21   to all the things.

00:06:22   But it's not like batteries may explode, you need to know right now now now.

00:06:28   It's more like the kind of thing that they would probably email you, and as long as you

00:06:31   used an Apple ID, they have at least one email with your phone, set it up with an Apple ID,

00:06:37   they have one email address, and it's the type of thing they could send out the emails.

00:06:40   I don't think it matters if you send all the emails at once or in batches because people aren't immediately going to run out again

00:06:45   It's not urgent people are merely aren't gonna run out to the store

00:06:48   Read their email whenever they read it and they look at the like oh

00:06:52   Half the people forget that they read it other people may be put a reminder in their calendar

00:06:56   I think the there won't be a big rush on Apple stores

00:06:59   No matter how you notify about it, and it just doesn't seem that urgent like for this particular thing

00:07:04   And the money-saving aspect definitely has something to it, but yeah a lot of those

00:07:09   Lot of these type of things things that don't happen very often that aren't an essential expected part of the product experience

00:07:15   Tend to be done in not just an apple, but in every company tend to be done in sort of

00:07:20   Ways that seem inefficient or not high-tech because it's not you know, that's the stuff that happens all the time

00:07:26   You know software updates for example, like expected parts of the lifecycle of a product are

00:07:31   iterated on and improved and made more streamlined and made efficient and so on and so forth and these things that happen rarely are

00:07:38   Supposed to happen rarely. It's like well, we'll just slap something together even something like now that I'm excusing this

00:07:43   But you can think about the whole pushing the u2 album onto everyone's things

00:07:46   That's not a thing that happens all the time like that was as far as I know that's the only time they ever did that

00:07:51   It's not as if there's an established system for doing this in a way that

00:07:55   Has been proven to be efficient and not annoying they just like probably went to them and just said well

00:08:01   Can we you know because you they couldn't probably couldn't give everyone promo codes because their promo code system probably couldn't handle that

00:08:08   This is just too many people and they don't want to let you know

00:08:10   So they probably went to the people say what's the best way we can give everyone this for free?

00:08:13   Can we make it free for a day on the store?

00:08:15   Well, then people might not redeem it and you know

00:08:18   Like part of it was they really wanted this music to actually be on people's things without them having to do anything like that

00:08:22   In other words you had to opt out instead of opt-in

00:08:24   But the way that they did it was just so clumsy and ham-fisted

00:08:28   And at least part of that has to be part of it is just wrong-headed thinking

00:08:32   The other part is that it's not something they do every day. So you just got to say with the

00:08:36   the mechanisms and tools and services we have at our disposal, what can we do to make this happen?

00:08:42   Considering they do have push notifications, that was one of the things it seems like they could have done,

00:08:47   but then someone in the meeting will raise their hand and say, "Yeah, but is this really

00:08:50   so important?" And then like the Bean Counter guy, like Marco says, says, "Won't that make more people come in, try to get this service

00:08:57   whether they need it or not?"

00:08:59   So going to a web forum and entering your serial number starts to look pretty good in that regard.

00:09:04   Can we make a web form?

00:09:05   Can we do that?

00:09:06   I think so.

00:09:07   Get that guy who knows what web object's in here.

00:09:09   - Well, and also, you know, so this isn't a problem

00:09:12   that is so urgent that it will cause like data loss

00:09:15   or a physical hazard.

00:09:16   As you said, you know, the battery isn't exploding.

00:09:18   You know, like somebody in the chat was saying

00:09:20   how the iMac three terabyte drive recall,

00:09:24   'cause I think it was Seagate,

00:09:26   whoever made those three terabyte drives,

00:09:27   like they basically all failed everywhere.

00:09:29   It wasn't just in iMacs.

00:09:30   Like that whole drive generation was terrible.

00:09:33   but so they emailed people for that.

00:09:35   But that makes sense, like this is your data

00:09:37   that you could be losing if this drive dies.

00:09:40   In this case, like your photos might be blurry

00:09:42   on your six plus if it was made in this range.

00:09:45   By the way, mine was.

00:09:46   My test six plus, the serial number qualifies,

00:09:48   but I, you know, that's not gonna qualify

00:09:50   if they actually checked to have it pass,

00:09:52   so I figure, eh, I'll worry about it later.

00:09:54   But another thing is, some people might say,

00:09:58   well, how do you send a push notification,

00:09:59   and will they worry about annoying people?

00:10:02   And the answer there is they don't worry about that at all,

00:10:06   because they already spam us with push notifications

00:10:09   for stupid things.

00:10:09   - There are three words for that one.

00:10:11   Flash flood warning.

00:10:12   You ever been in an office,

00:10:15   well I don't know if you have them down,

00:10:16   or you're in the office and there's a flash flood warning,

00:10:18   it sounds like the world is coming to an end

00:10:20   as everyone's iPhones go off with this terrible

00:10:23   clacks on sound.

00:10:24   So I feel like they have,

00:10:26   I mean that's not them and you can opt out of that,

00:10:27   you can turn that stuff off, you know.

00:10:29   - Well and a few people in the chat are saying

00:10:30   that's a legal requirement, they had to do that.

00:10:32   Anyway, that's separate though.

00:10:33   What I'm talking about is those BS push notifications

00:10:36   from the tips app and from the app store

00:10:39   and from the news app in iOS 9.

00:10:42   You know, I've complained for a long time now

00:10:44   that there has always been a rule.

00:10:46   Ever since push notifications were launched,

00:10:48   there was always a rule in the app store review rules

00:10:51   that said that you could not use push notifications

00:10:53   for marketing or promotion of any kind.

00:10:56   And not only has that rule never been enforced, ever.

00:11:00   Like there's been spam push notifications

00:11:03   or push notifications that are for marketing

00:11:05   or promotion only.

00:11:07   Those have existed since the beginning of time

00:11:10   and very popular apps have always used them.

00:11:14   Like it isn't like it's only a few bad actors who do it.

00:11:16   And like it's common practice, everybody does it now.

00:11:19   And Apple has never seemed to care,

00:11:22   even though they have this rule,

00:11:23   they've never seemed to even bother trying to enforce it.

00:11:27   And now Apple has started breaking that rule themselves.

00:11:31   And that, like, they don't seem to care,

00:11:33   or you know, obviously, you know, Apple is not one person,

00:11:36   so certain teams obviously don't seem to care,

00:11:38   but like, to me, that's extremely inappropriate.

00:11:42   Like, and maybe, it just seems like this is one

00:11:44   of those things that I care a lot more about

00:11:46   than everybody else in the world,

00:11:47   and so maybe I'm just nuts.

00:11:49   But to me, a spam notification is never okay,

00:11:54   and it's especially not okay from the platform vendor

00:11:58   for a notification that I was opted into by default.

00:12:01   That is not cool at all.

00:12:04   - No, I couldn't agree more.

00:12:05   And the tips app, I think I'd had it on my phone

00:12:09   because it got pushed onto my phone

00:12:11   during a software update or whatever.

00:12:13   I think I saw one of the tips come through

00:12:17   on Notification Center and the very next thing I did

00:12:20   was grab my phone and turn off all notifications from tips

00:12:23   and bury it in the most deep folder

00:12:25   in the middle of nowhere on my home screens

00:12:27   because I don't want anything to do with it.

00:12:29   I don't want it.

00:12:30   I don't want to be opted into it.

00:12:32   I wish it was opt in by me rather than opt in by them.

00:12:37   Just no, go away, don't do it.

00:12:40   And again, like you said, Marco,

00:12:42   it doesn't encourage an app developer

00:12:44   to be a good citizen of the platform

00:12:49   if the platform vendor's doing the same BS crap

00:12:51   that I would want to do as a developer, hypothetically.

00:12:54   It's just gross.

00:12:56   - This is kind of a larger theme

00:12:58   that I keep seeing cracks in the foundation here

00:13:01   that I'm really fearing for this.

00:13:03   John mentioned the U2 album Songs of Innocence,

00:13:06   Sounds of Innocence, whatever it was, Spam of Innocence.

00:13:09   And there's been things like that.

00:13:13   Now these certain apps showing us notifications from Apple.

00:13:17   And it kind of seems like Apple is a big company. They are the man. Like, you know, talking

00:13:26   about rebelling against IBM, rebelling against the big company, rebelling against the man.

00:13:30   Apple is the man now. And Apple is big corporate America now. And most of the time, we're

00:13:37   able to ignore that. Most of the time, that is not a problem in the way that big, you

00:13:43   know, self-interested only and sometimes tasteless companies, you know, the way they usually

00:13:48   act, the way they usually annoy people like us, usually Apple does not display those qualities.

00:13:56   But there have been a few instances recently where it seems like they're slipping. It

00:14:00   seems like, and I don't know if this is like a Steve versus Tim thing, probably not,

00:14:06   But it seems like Apple is starting to behave more like the giant corporation that they

00:14:13   have been for quite some time, and it's starting to negatively affect some of the things they

00:14:17   do in ways that annoy people like us who in the past have, you know, Apple's never been

00:14:23   perfect but it sure seems like they're making little bad judgment calls more frequently

00:14:29   now than they used to in ways like spamming us and promoting their own stuff and, you

00:14:35   promoting Apple Music so heavily and iTunes and the music app that they've just ruined

00:14:39   the entire music app and they ruined iTunes to a great degree. Stuff like that. Like,

00:14:44   they're making bad calls and they're doing things that are only self-interested rather

00:14:51   than being self-interested that also benefit us.

00:14:54   They ruin iTunes every few years though. Like, I don't think this ruining of iTunes is much

00:14:59   different than all the other times they ruined iTunes. We've talked about iTunes in past

00:15:02   I think of all those things the only one I can kind of defend is the tips app because if there's gonna be a tips

00:15:08   App it kind of has to be opt-out

00:15:10   No one is going to make the whole point is you need the people who need these tips the most have no idea how to

00:15:15   Opt into it so

00:15:16   Which which OS added the thing where you can turn off notifications from the notification is that iOS 9 you can do that?

00:15:22   Yeah, I thought that was in one. I'm keeping up with iOS stuff

00:15:26   But yeah, I thought that was in one of the things that like from the notification you could say

00:15:29   I don't want to see this these notifications anymore because that's part of the hassle is like oh, that's interesting

00:15:32   You get the notification.

00:15:34   Maybe I'm just misremembering chat room.

00:15:35   We'll correct me in a second if I'm wrong.

00:15:36   But if not, Apple should do this.

00:15:38   You get the notification.

00:15:40   And even when you know how to do it,

00:15:41   like oh, I gotta go back to settings,

00:15:43   then notifications, and then scroll until I find the thing.

00:15:47   'Cause there's no search.

00:15:48   Maybe there is a search on that page.

00:15:49   That's another idea.

00:15:50   Did they add a search to settings in iOS?

00:15:52   - Yes, yes they did.

00:15:53   It almost works.

00:15:54   - All right.

00:15:55   People in chat rooms say I'm thinking of Android.

00:15:57   But anyway, yeah.

00:15:59   That's a feature that would be handy.

00:16:02   But for tips that has to be opt-out because the whole point of the tips is the people who need the most need to be

00:16:07   And it can be annoying even those tips can be annoying

00:16:09   It's one of the tips one of the first tips should remove the second tip should be

00:16:13   Don't want to see any more of these tips. Here's how you turn them off

00:16:17   Now someone on the chat room is saying that I'm correct that you can't turn them off from the notification

00:16:21   Anyway, I haven't installed iOS 9 yet in case you haven't noticed

00:16:23   But yeah all the other stuff I don't know it's hard for me to discern trends here

00:16:30   The only trend I can maybe pick out is that when Jobs was still around, you could...

00:16:40   They seemed much more limited in the things they were willing to try.

00:16:42   Like they didn't try a lot of stuff.

00:16:44   That's true.

00:16:45   They were very limited and you could kind of, I don't know if this is actually true,

00:16:49   but you can kind of get a feel for like things that you would imagine Steve Jobs would find

00:16:54   distasteful didn't get out the door.

00:16:56   Is that because he was micromanaging everything or is that because everyone around him thought

00:16:59   to themselves, "If I sell this to Steve, he'll tell me it's crappy and we shouldn't put it

00:17:03   out or whatever."

00:17:04   Whereas the Tim Cooks apple is trying much more things and overall I think that's a benefit

00:17:09   because we just get so many things that we've wanted for so long that, you know, I mean

00:17:13   just look at iOS 8 and all the other stuff, but on the other side you have like that,

00:17:16   we never talked about it, but that promotional site about what's so amazing about the iPhone

00:17:19   and how app reviewers have great ideas and stuff like that, like that would never have

00:17:24   come out of, you know, if that had passed under the nose of Steve Jobs.

00:17:28   But you know, that's not the kind of BS that you he has different brand of BS

00:17:33   He would not like that and that and that is not the correct brand of BS. So

00:17:37   I'm mostly I don't think I think it's still a

00:17:40   Net positive. I'm willing to deal with the bumps in the road here

00:17:45   But you know a lot of these things is revealed like I said for the ability to turn off the notification

00:17:49   from the notification that's just a feature they should have and

00:17:54   You could say the problem is they keep sending too many notifications

00:17:56   Or the tips app annoys me or even stuff like I can't delete these apps off the phone

00:18:01   I should be able to hide them or whatever

00:18:03   Those are exactly the type of things that Tim Cook's Apple

00:18:05   Seems more receptive to hearing the cries about and they'll get to them eventually obviously the ability to actually hide

00:18:11   Like the stocks app or whatever

00:18:13   It's probably really low on the list of thing of long-standing complaints about iOS in terms of impact

00:18:18   That's like well just put them in a folder. That's what everyone else does, but I think they will eventually get to it unlike the

00:18:24   Tim Cook Apple where you're like, "You know what? They're never going to let me hide the

00:18:27   stocks app. Just put it in a folder. No big deal."

00:18:29   [laughs]

00:18:30   Yeah. I don't know. It seems like... What you said is correct that it does seem like we have now

00:18:37   a different brand of BS. And Steve's BS, whether it was better aligned with us or whether we were

00:18:43   just used to it or whether we just liked Steve as a character and kind of rolled it in, who knows?

00:18:48   Well, it was a personification. We're pretending it's Steve's BS. All it was was Apple's BS when

00:18:53   Steve was the CEO and so everything was like it mapped onto him it's like well I

00:18:57   don't know what actually went on inside the company so I'll pretend this was

00:19:00   Steve Jobs idea like that was just the simple the the external simplification

00:19:03   of the black box that was Apple and same thing we're doing with like Tim Cook's

00:19:06   Apple or whatever we have no real way of knowing what's going on internally all

00:19:10   we're doing is trying to you know you just said you know Apple's not one per

00:19:13   person but we you know we're modeling it pretend it's a person what is the

00:19:16   personality of that person what kind of person is this Apple you know well and

00:19:20   And you know, so many big corporations behave like the out of touch men in their 50s who

00:19:29   run them.

00:19:31   And it shows.

00:19:33   And Apple has been run by men in their 50s for a while now, but it really didn't behave

00:19:39   that way.

00:19:40   It didn't seem that way.

00:19:41   They didn't seem as out of touch as that kind of group usually does to people like us.

00:19:48   But for some reason now I'm not feeling that confident in that anymore.

00:19:53   It does seem like that has changed without Steve or at least in the same time that Steve

00:19:58   unfortunately passed away and the leadership changed and everything.

00:20:03   It now seems more like what it is, which is a group of old guys trying to figure out what's

00:20:10   cool and trying to yell at us now to tell us what's cool.

00:20:14   - Just hang in there Marco.

00:20:15   you'll be an old guy in his 50s and then everything will match up again and you'll be happy.

00:20:19   Right, well I mean I'm already not cool and I'm only 34? 33? 33. I'm only 30- I never

00:20:24   know I got I got to figure it every time. I'm already not cool I know that but I would

00:20:28   I would not be running something where I have to decide important things that other people

00:20:33   should think are cool.

00:20:34   It's not coolness it's just about taste that's what it always comes down to is like what

00:20:39   seems a tasteful appropriate thing to do. What's too flashy, what's too flamboyant, what's

00:20:44   to obviously BS, like make your BS at least be clever,

00:20:47   what is actually inspiring versus what is cloying.

00:20:49   Like it's difficult to do,

00:20:51   it's difficult to do as an individual,

00:20:53   let alone trying to herd a giant multi-billion dollar

00:20:55   organization to present a face to the world

00:20:58   that most people who look on it decide that it is tasteful,

00:21:01   the things they do are tasteful.

00:21:02   Like that's a tall order, so.

00:21:04   - It is, but like the things that we've seen from Apple

00:21:08   in recent time that have seemed distasteful to us,

00:21:11   things like, you know, the spam of innocence,

00:21:13   things like the weird presentations they keep giving and the weird EdiQ segment and the

00:21:18   Apple Music segment and everything. Like, all this stuff, you know, it's, this is, this

00:21:22   seems like they're, they're letting a lot of things out that, you know, Steve's brand

00:21:29   of BS and the thing, and the flaws Steve will let out would be things like, oh yeah, the

00:21:34   iPod Hi-Fi, that's totally gonna be an awesome deal and people are gonna buy it. You know,

00:21:38   like that, that was like Steve's kind of BS. Like--

00:21:40   Other than the game was figuring out, does he really like the iPod and the Hi-Fi?

00:21:45   Probably he does, because if he didn't like it, why would he even be introducing it?

00:21:48   He didn't like the Motorola Rocker, and we could tell.

00:21:50   It kind of seemed like he really liked the iPod and Hi-Fi, and I guess it was okay, but

00:21:56   the rest of the world did not like the iPod and Hi-Fi, except for Jason Snow, who loves

00:22:00   it.

00:22:01   But everyone else was.

00:22:02   But yeah, sometimes people, sometimes Steve thought something would, at least seemed to

00:22:06   something would be a great success and that people would have no problem with its price

00:22:12   or limitations. And then the market said very clearly otherwise. That was Steve's, I think

00:22:17   that was Steve's biggest or most common flaw in judgment. Whereas now, McKern Apple, we

00:22:24   have other flaws in judgment that are very different and to me a little more worrisome.

00:22:28   And maybe it's no big deal, you know, maybe I'm overthinking it. That's very possible.

00:22:32   - But I do think it's offset by the other changes

00:22:35   in judgment of like, is it a good idea for apps

00:22:38   to have extensions or to have third party keyboards,

00:22:42   setting aside the really buggy implementation.

00:22:44   The new Apple says yes, the old Apple says no.

00:22:46   I like the new Apple decision better.

00:22:48   I think that outweighs all of this stuff.

00:22:50   - I think you're right and that's why overall,

00:22:54   I think Apple is in a better position now

00:22:56   than they were say five years ago.

00:22:58   Overall, things are better.

00:23:00   Not everything is better, but overall I think you're right,

00:23:03   the things are better.

00:23:04   It's still, it seems like, you know,

00:23:07   we all thought that after Steve, Apple,

00:23:11   you know, we were all telling ourselves back then,

00:23:14   you know, Apple will be okay, you know,

00:23:16   maybe it won't change very much.

00:23:19   But I think what we're seeing is how it has changed,

00:23:22   and it is an all for the better.

00:23:23   And there are a lot of things that are better,

00:23:25   but obviously like you can't have

00:23:27   such an incredibly strong personality

00:23:30   who had tons of power, you can't have that kind of person

00:23:34   at the top of the company who then leaves

00:23:38   and nothing changes.

00:23:40   It was never gonna be nothing will change.

00:23:43   And it was never realistic to think that the things

00:23:48   that we loved about Apple would all survive this transition.

00:23:51   Some of them haven't.

00:23:52   And I think that's a little sad.

00:23:55   - Yeah.

00:23:56   We really need to talk about something that's awesome,

00:23:58   but very, very quickly, I just wanted

00:23:59   to apologize for all the people who've been writing me saying, "Oh my god, now I see a

00:24:03   crescent on my iPhone. What have you done?" Sorry guys, but welcome to the club. Anyway,

00:24:07   why don't you tell us about something that's cool, Marco?

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00:26:18   Thanks a lot.

00:26:19   - All right.

00:26:21   I wanted to quickly talk about something

00:26:26   I've been thinking about on and off all day today.

00:26:29   And we've been talking a lot about Force Touch

00:26:31   and kind of tangentially the haptic engine

00:26:34   and how it would be used on the iPhone.

00:26:37   And something that had occurred to me,

00:26:40   and I don't recall us talking about this,

00:26:42   What if it was opt-in, kind of like iPad multitasking gestures, you know, the five-finger pinch

00:26:47   and the four-finger swipes?

00:26:50   What if it was opt-in and so all the confusion that we were worried about from normal users

00:26:57   that had never experienced Force Touch before and don't really know what it's all about,

00:27:01   what if it was optional?

00:27:02   Like, would that be a reasonable solution to the problem?

00:27:05   I'm still not sure what it would do necessarily, but maybe it's an optional long press.

00:27:10   like you were saying before Marco on a prior episode,

00:27:14   but the key is that it's opt-in,

00:27:16   and by default it doesn't do anything.

00:27:17   - You can't market it that way though.

00:27:19   If they're gonna put a force touch on the screen,

00:27:20   you can be pretty darn sure that it's gonna be

00:27:22   one of the very high up bullet point features

00:27:26   of the iPhone 6s or whatever they end up calling it.

00:27:30   And if it's opt-in, people are gonna get it and say,

00:27:32   "I saw the TV ad where they did this thing.

00:27:34   "How do I do that thing?"

00:27:35   Oh, you gotta go to settings, you gotta,

00:27:37   I feel like it can't possibly be opt-in

00:27:39   just for marketing reasons.

00:27:41   That is assuming they even tell you that it's there.

00:27:43   If they don't mention it and decide

00:27:45   this is not gonna be a marketing feature,

00:27:47   that would seem weird to me.

00:27:48   Like why build the sensors in and not,

00:27:51   like usually there aren't that many marketing features

00:27:54   for the S revision phones,

00:27:55   'cause it's gonna look the same as the other one

00:27:57   and they maybe change the materials

00:27:58   and tweak this and tweak that.

00:28:00   But it's not like, oh, this one has, you know, touch ID.

00:28:03   That's the type of feature that you get

00:28:07   when the whole phone changes shape

00:28:08   in the sort of two-year cadence that Apple's on right now.

00:28:11   So any kind of feature that you can say,

00:28:14   that you added an S revision here,

00:28:17   I think I feel like they really wanna tout it.

00:28:18   So I cannot imagine it being opt-in

00:28:21   unless they really, really, really couldn't figure out

00:28:24   what the hell to do with Force Touch on the phone.

00:28:25   And they're like, eh, if we can't figure out what to do with it,

00:28:28   we should just leave it in kind of experimental mode for now.

00:28:32   - Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

00:28:34   The other thing I was thinking about

00:28:36   is what if they don't do force touch, but still have the haptic engine? So what if it's

00:28:47   not about pushing "through the display," it's not about having different interaction paradigms

00:28:53   from user to phone, but it's about having a different interaction paradigm phone to

00:28:59   user. So maybe it's like the Rumble Pak was to us back when we were playing Nintendo games.

00:29:06   for you John. When the Rumble Pak was new, it's sort of like that where it's a different

00:29:12   response mechanism, but maybe there isn't a force touch on the phone.

00:29:16   Well they already have that, like the vibration motor is already in there. I saw a couple

00:29:20   people tweeting about this, they're like "Oh they can make it so you can feel when

00:29:23   you rub over a certain thing." I don't think they're going to put a different physical

00:29:26   thing that shakes your phone inside the phone. I think there's going to be one thing that

00:29:29   shakes your phone. Maybe that thing will be changed slightly to give different kinds of

00:29:33   of feedback but it's still just gonna be one thing. It's the thing that makes your

00:29:36   phone vibrate when you put it on silent. It's the thing that, you know, that's

00:29:39   gonna do any kind of haptic feedback. That doesn't require any, you know,

00:29:44   anything more than just a plain old touch sensor. The force sensor, the whole

00:29:48   point of that is to give a more accurate reading of how hard you're pressing on

00:29:52   the screen, more accurate than seeing how much your finger squishes, which I think

00:29:55   is not the best way to do that. So if they're gonna build that in, they're

00:29:58   gonna put those little sensors in there, I feel like it has to be a combination

00:30:03   of, now we can tell how hard you're pressing, and now we can press you back by wiggling

00:30:08   the little, whatever little thing they have in there that vibrates the phone.

00:30:13   And yeah, we'll just have to see what they decide to do with it.

00:30:17   It's the type of thing they have to be careful with because you usually don't get a chance

00:30:21   to totally take a mulligan on a major input device or whatever, like double clicking,

00:30:30   whether that was a smart move or not.

00:30:32   It's really difficult, you can't go like three years into the Mac and say, "You know what?

00:30:36   Double-click doesn't mean open anymore.

00:30:37   We changed our mind."

00:30:38   In fact, there's no more double-click, or double-click means something entirely different.

00:30:42   In the world of touch, maybe you get a little bit of a chance, like you mentioned that the

00:30:45   gestures that are opted in on the iPad, but those are...

00:30:48   Like someone thought that was a good idea.

00:30:49   That's another one that kind of leaked out.

00:30:50   Someone thought that was a good idea, but then other people immediately realized if

00:30:53   you try to play Fruit Ninja with it, you'll end up going back to the home screen all the

00:30:56   time.

00:30:57   So their solution was not, "Let's not ship that feature until we figure out how to make

00:31:00   it work."

00:31:01   "Alright, off by default, people can turn on if they want."

00:31:04   And it's a shame because that gesture is so addictive on the iPad, but you really can't

00:31:08   play Fruit Ninja with it.

00:31:10   So I don't know what they do then.

00:31:11   Yeah, I don't know.

00:31:13   I mean, I'm thinking, you know, the story here is probably very boring.

00:31:18   It is probably not anything super clever.

00:31:21   It is probably Force Touch is Force Touch.

00:31:25   It's advertised as Force Touch.

00:31:26   It is some kind of tertiary, secondary click that will bring up some kind of secondary,

00:31:33   tertiary function and there will be some kind of API to access this gesture. I think we're

00:31:41   overthinking it. I really think this is just going to be a feature added because they can.

00:31:48   Somebody at Apple clearly really loves Force Touch. Somebody who matters a lot clearly

00:31:54   loves it. Maybe it's multiple people who matter a lot.

00:31:56   - Well, you can see on the watch

00:31:57   why they kinda had to do it,

00:31:58   because they needed more input methods.

00:32:01   - On the watch it makes sense.

00:32:03   I don't, you know, I've obviously said this a lot,

00:32:06   I don't think it makes a lot of sense in the trackpads,

00:32:09   and if it makes sense in just the MacBook One trackpad,

00:32:13   for thinness reasons, okay.

00:32:14   Although, is it really?

00:32:16   Like, I've never listened to it,

00:32:18   but like I was thinking on my dog walk today,

00:32:20   'cause that's where I do all my thinking,

00:32:22   is it really thinner to have the whole linear actuator

00:32:25   everything down there, that's thinner than a button?

00:32:27   I don't know, anyway, it doesn't matter.

00:32:29   You know, putting it in all of the laptops, I think,

00:32:33   is, it was maybe premature or unwarranted, but.

00:32:38   - So far, most of the feedback from the youngsters

00:32:41   is like, Marco is an old man and we all love this better.

00:32:45   - Yeah, I guess this is my old man phase now,

00:32:47   beginning of my life that--

00:32:48   - But I think it's not really, because I think

00:32:50   several years from now, you'll be okay with it

00:32:53   and you'll go back and use one of the ones

00:32:54   to have the button then move,

00:32:55   then it will feel broken to you.

00:32:57   Like, oh, the whole thing tilts down.

00:32:59   - It's very possible.

00:33:00   And I said before, like,

00:33:01   I don't hate the ForceTux trackpad.

00:33:03   I just think it's worse than the current, than the old one.

00:33:05   And, you know, I'm not gonna not buy a new laptop ever again

00:33:09   to avoid it, but I'm certainly,

00:33:11   I don't think I'm gonna love it

00:33:12   when I have to make the transition.

00:33:13   - You should circle back to bagging on the keyboard,

00:33:15   because I think that is a more safe,

00:33:17   a more safe redoubt for you to build your argument.

00:33:22   - Right, well, it doesn't matter.

00:33:23   Anyway, so the addition of Force Touch,

00:33:27   obviously they're putting this across the whole product line.

00:33:29   I think this is maybe yet another thing

00:33:31   that kinda ties into what I was saying earlier,

00:33:33   which is I think that this is really gonna be lost

00:33:38   on so many people.

00:33:39   I mean, it's already,

00:33:40   I already think that they've blown the execution

00:33:43   on the Mac side, where making it a tertiary click is weird.

00:33:48   Designing it in such a way that the click feedback

00:33:53   that you get feels noticeably worse than the old button

00:33:56   I think was a poor choice.

00:33:57   If they had a choice, they might not have, who knows.

00:34:00   And on the phone, if everything we're hearing

00:34:04   from various tip sources is correct,

00:34:08   that it is just like a right click

00:34:09   and it's another level of interaction of,

00:34:12   oh well, you gotta go around shoving everything

00:34:15   on the screen to see what it can do.

00:34:17   Like that kinda sucks.

00:34:18   It'll be useful I think for games and for,

00:34:22   Like there was a good discussion on this,

00:34:24   on upgrade this week, we'll link to that.

00:34:26   Well, by the time you guys hear this, upgrade last week,

00:34:29   and it was very good.

00:34:30   And they were pointing out, you know,

00:34:31   this could really be useful for games

00:34:33   of having like a different--

00:34:34   - Wait for the first person to have the test your strength

00:34:37   game to try to see if they can get people to punch their

00:34:38   thumbs through their phone screens, you know?

00:34:41   Press harder, oh, you haven't done it yet, keep going.

00:34:43   Yeah, it's probably really easy to max out the sensors,

00:34:45   so I guess you can't do that, but that would be fun.

00:34:47   - Well, and also if Apple enforces their app store rules

00:34:51   anymore, which is a big if for these push notifications, there is a rule against apps

00:34:56   that encourage people to damage their devices.

00:34:59   I think it'll be pretty easy to max out the four sensors, so I don't think you can make

00:35:02   a game like that anyway.

00:35:03   Well, people will try.

00:35:06   But yeah, so, you know, I think it's going to be a really kind of boring new feature

00:35:11   that's not going to set the world on fire in the same way that the Mac ForceTux track

00:35:16   pads have been.

00:35:18   I still think like if it's easy to do, even if they can't figure out a use for it yet,

00:35:23   I think there is a potential use for it.

00:35:26   And as long as they don't go hog wild with it, making like every screen that's part of

00:35:30   the OS has every control has something that you can force touch.

00:35:33   It can't be like a mystery meet navigation.

00:35:35   It can't be like playing mist where you have to be like, do I tap this?

00:35:38   Do I double tap this?

00:35:39   Do I long press it?

00:35:40   Do I force touch it?

00:35:41   It's really, they really need to figure out what they're going to do with it in their

00:35:46   apps anyway.

00:35:47   And then like third parties can dig their own graves.

00:35:48   Like if they want to have, you know,

00:35:50   if Marker wants to have like, oh, you don't know,

00:35:51   you have to go into settings and don't tap the switch,

00:35:55   but force touch it.

00:35:56   Like no one's going to do that.

00:35:57   And if they do, that's their own stupid fault.

00:35:59   So if they make the API open enough,

00:36:01   then you can do that now with like, oh,

00:36:02   you got a long press that control.

00:36:03   You can't just tap it.

00:36:04   What do you mean long press?

00:36:05   I don't know what a long press is, but you know,

00:36:07   they can do that.

00:36:08   But Apple needs to set the example by just using it.

00:36:11   And I think they did okay on the map, like on the Mac,

00:36:13   like fast forward and rewind for the video thing

00:36:15   QuickTime player, that is a very specific, very focused use of Force Touch that is not

00:36:21   like, "We're defining a new language that you can use in every app.

00:36:24   Go into a Finder window and press down and it will zoom in on the window or your icons

00:36:27   will slide to the left or the right."

00:36:29   They didn't do that there.

00:36:30   So I think it's just finding the one or two places where you can use it and it actually

00:36:35   is kind of cool and then not looking in other apps and saying, "We're going to use Force

00:36:39   Touch."

00:36:40   If you find yourself doing that, you're probably doing it wrong.

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00:39:00   Okay, so by the time most people have heard this, this news is going to be a week or two

00:39:05   old.

00:39:06   But a little while ago, there was a really kind of ugly article posted by the New York

00:39:15   Times about Amazon and their—what it's like to work there, and their company culture,

00:39:21   and their hiring practices.

00:39:23   And it made a pretty big splash.

00:39:25   And the short, short version of the article was, "It's terrible to work there."

00:39:28   I don't know. I only had a chance to read about the first half of it and even after having read that much

00:39:34   I thought my goodness

00:39:36   I would never ever want to work at this place because among many other things I like to see my family once every 16 years

00:39:41   I don't know John

00:39:44   How would you summarize this and what did I leave out because I know that there was a lot in this article

00:39:49   It was long

00:39:50   So the badness about Amazon is basically that they expect you to

00:39:54   dedicate yourself mind body and soul to the company to work a very long hours to put your job before your

00:40:01   Family and your health and the rest of your life to just really, you know be sort of in

00:40:06   full throttle mode all the time

00:40:09   for the company and if you can't do that and if you're not super smart and not able to do a million things at once

00:40:15   And have lots of work keep done you then you're not you know

00:40:18   The idea is like that Amazon is a demanding place to work

00:40:21   They want the only want the smartest people who get the most done and the best hardest workers and they're very

00:40:28   you know trying to make it they were probably like a culture of excellence where they do the thing where they try to rank everybody

00:40:34   And push out the low performers to make room for supposedly the new people

00:40:38   and

00:40:40   The New York Times story was just horror story after horror story of how

00:40:43   That you know what people think I was a work-life balance

00:40:46   balance is just so far out of kilter at Amazon, all sorts of stories about people being asked

00:40:52   to do things that are just, you know, beyond the pale for the purposes of the work, being

00:40:56   told explicitly that work has to be more important than their family, working really long hours,

00:41:00   and just all sorts of stuff like that.

00:41:03   And you know, the flip side of it, I think that this New York Times story was, according

00:41:08   to someone from New York Times I think tweeted, it was the story that got the highest number

00:41:12   of comments ever on a New York Times story, because everyone who either currently works

00:41:15   on Amazon or had previously worked on Amazon wanted to say,

00:41:18   "Here's my story working on Amazon.

00:41:20   Either I have my own horror stories or I worked there

00:41:24   and it wasn't like that at all, or I worked there

00:41:26   and my group was good, but I know other groups

00:41:28   that were like this."

00:41:29   Lots of people, not just on the New York Times,

00:41:30   but everywhere around the web are throwing in their own

00:41:34   stories about Amazon.

00:41:37   But Amazon's a big company,

00:41:37   a lot of different people have worked there.

00:41:40   And I think the most interesting part of this,

00:41:43   well, I guess if you didn't know this is what it was like

00:41:45   in Amazon.

00:41:46   And by the way, this is what it's like in a lot of companies, also particularly startups,

00:41:51   although it's a little bit more appropriate for it to be that way in startups, because

00:41:54   in a startup it's like lots of hard work, but also potentially lots of reward, whereas

00:41:58   Amazon's so big that at this point you could work yourself to death and it's not like you're

00:42:02   going to be a multimillionaire off your stock options in a few years, whereas in a startup

00:42:07   you have a vanishingly small chance of doing that, but at least it's a chance.

00:42:12   Yeah, that's often overstated.

00:42:15   I know, but it's non-zero.

00:42:16   The whole thing, Amazon is still operating as if it's like,

00:42:18   "Oh, you're gonna get all these options,

00:42:20   "the stock and blah, blah, blah."

00:42:21   But that's like, if you're gonna work yourself to death

00:42:24   for a company, make it be your startup.

00:42:26   The startup that you founded, that you have equity in,

00:42:30   that you're gonna get rich off of if it succeeds,

00:42:32   you're gonna be ruined if it fails.

00:42:33   That I think is the only sort of reasonable way,

00:42:37   and even that is probably not a great idea

00:42:39   because almost all startups fail.

00:42:41   But if you wanna give it a run, that is the thing to do.

00:42:43   Your company, your thing.

00:42:44   Amazon is not going to be your company.

00:42:46   You are probably not going to get rich off Amazon stock.

00:42:48   Probably don't want to work yourself to death.

00:42:50   But anyway, some people are workaholics.

00:42:51   Some people like that.

00:42:52   Some people thrive in that atmosphere.

00:42:53   Some people don't have families.

00:42:54   Some people do want to dedicate themselves to their job.

00:42:57   So there's two sides to this story here,

00:43:00   depending on how you look on it.

00:43:00   But the most interesting part was the reaction of--

00:43:03   because Amazon's got to do damage control,

00:43:05   because they're going to have lots of difficulty recruiting,

00:43:07   because now everyone thinks Amazon is a terrible sweatshop.

00:43:10   Which, by the way, it is probably, and especially

00:43:12   much more so for blue collar workers

00:43:13   rather than the white collar people who are writing their code or running their websites

00:43:16   or whatever and no one seems to care about that. But anyway, setting that aside, how

00:43:22   do you pronounce his last name? Bezos? Bezos? I can never get it right. Bezos. Anyway, Jeff

00:43:27   Bezos, CEO of Amazon, put out this statement and the little things I pulled from it is

00:43:33   these two little passages. "I don't recognize this Amazon." He's talking about the Amazon

00:43:36   as described in the New York Times. This article doesn't describe the Amazon I know. And I

00:43:41   I love that aspect of this thing that he's writing,

00:43:44   because all he's doing is restating the problem.

00:43:46   I'm totally sure that he doesn't recognize that Amazon,

00:43:49   because the experience of Amazon for the CEO

00:43:51   is not like this at all.

00:43:52   He's probably a workaholic,

00:43:54   and he probably works himself to death, but he's the CEO.

00:43:57   He stands to gain the most from it,

00:43:58   and he's working like crazy because he's a workaholic,

00:44:00   and that's what he likes to do.

00:44:02   His work-life balance is exactly the way he wants it.

00:44:04   Like, this is what he made for himself.

00:44:06   Of course he doesn't recognize this Amazon.

00:44:08   You don't recognize this Amazon

00:44:09   because you're not a lowly Amazon employee

00:44:11   being told to work yourself to death for no payoff.

00:44:14   You're a multi-bazillionaire who is a workaholic

00:44:17   like Elon Musk or Steve Jobs or any of these other people

00:44:19   because that's what's in them and they're driven to do that.

00:44:21   And I'm sure there are employees of Amazon

00:44:23   who are like that as well.

00:44:24   They're not gonna get their rewards from it,

00:44:25   but again, some people just thrive

00:44:27   in that type of atmosphere.

00:44:28   But the reason this works as a New York Times story

00:44:30   is most people do not thrive in that atmosphere

00:44:32   and to most people it reads like a horror story.

00:44:34   And so you read it and go,

00:44:36   oh my gosh, I can't believe what it's like.

00:44:38   Now, if I ever had an idea that I was gonna work

00:44:40   Amazon, I'm definitely not going to work there now because I read this article and the things

00:44:43   that I hear happening, that's like my nightmare of the worst possible job I could ever have.

00:44:48   Most people are going to have that attitude.

00:44:50   And that's why I would try, if I had to sit down with Jeff Bezos, I would try to sit down

00:44:54   and say, look, I don't know a lot about a lot of people, but I think I know a little

00:44:56   bit at this point about professional programmers.

00:45:00   And if ever there was an employee less inclined to be into the sort of gung ho, just work,

00:45:09   work, stay in the office at late hours grinding, grinding, grinding. It is the

00:45:15   programmer for a giant fortune 500 company because programming I think is

00:45:20   one of those type of things where the Ballmer Curve aside, we'll put a

00:45:25   link in that, is one of those things where you can't like

00:45:30   the harder you work and the more you grind the worse you program. Like you

00:45:34   have to have times of rest to think about things. You have to walk the dog

00:45:37   like Marco said, you have to take a shower.

00:45:39   Like that's where you actually solve

00:45:40   all your programming powers.

00:45:41   It's in the shower while you're walking the dog,

00:45:43   while you're sleeping,

00:45:44   sometimes you wake up in the morning, it's in your head.

00:45:46   If you stay late one night and try to work on this thing

00:45:49   and work, work, work, work, work for like five extra hours,

00:45:52   there's no point in it, specifically for programming.

00:45:55   And not that everyone they hire is a programmer,

00:45:58   but if you're gonna say, we only want you to work here

00:46:01   if you thrive in this type of atmosphere,

00:46:03   you're gonna be missing out on a lot of really,

00:46:05   really great programmers because in my experience great programmers tend to be

00:46:11   less receptive to that type of work environment mostly because I think it's not

00:46:15   conducive to good programming than for example salespeople. If you want to

00:46:19   find the world's best salesperson I bet they do thrive in this type of

00:46:21   environment because sales is all about go go go right and they're

00:46:25   you know they're go-getters, they're gonna get the job done, they're gonna put

00:46:28   in long hours, they're gonna do the business travel and all that stuff.

00:46:30   That's not how programming works so I don't know about all the other positions

00:46:33   that they're filling and marketing and other things that are outside engineering.

00:46:37   And again, setting aside the blue collar workers that are being exploited in the factories

00:46:40   packing packages.

00:46:42   In 100 degree heat in a building where the air conditioner doesn't work, where Amazon

00:46:45   thoughtfully provides ambulances outside so when the workers drop dead, or not drop dead,

00:46:49   but collapse on the line, that they're whisked outside to the ambulance, that is a whole

00:46:54   separate issue and that is terrible.

00:46:55   So really just to put this in perspective, what we're talking about is like highly paid

00:46:59   programmers being asked not to see their kids, not people being asked to work in 100 degree

00:47:03   heat in a factory and collapsing from the heat and being taken to company-sponsored

00:47:07   ambulances outside.

00:47:08   But anyway, I think this is just a bad business decision.

00:47:12   This is not the way that you should run a company of Amazon size.

00:47:16   This is not the way you should manage an organization that is focused on engineering.

00:47:21   And they would say back to me, "Our company is incredibly successful.

00:47:25   Look at the amazing things that we've done.

00:47:26   We're a giant retailer.

00:47:28   do all these things like S3 and EC2 and you think we're great at services and the reason

00:47:31   we're like that is because we have this attitude.

00:47:34   And I would say, "No, you do that despite that attitude," and then I would make him

00:47:37   read Creativity Inc. and learn that success hides problems, then we would go back and

00:47:40   forth and in the end he would do what he wants because he owns the company and I have a podcast.

00:47:44   But anyway, now that we've played out that little thing...

00:47:47   You have many podcasts.

00:47:48   Well, that's right.

00:47:49   I have multiple podcasts.

00:47:51   Thank you, Jeff.

00:47:52   Don't undersell yourself.

00:47:53   Right.

00:47:54   Wow.

00:47:55   my thoughts coming out of this.

00:47:57   And so I think it's good for stories like this

00:47:59   to be in the media to sort of raise awareness of this.

00:48:02   I don't know if Marco's ever been in a job like this,

00:48:04   but I don't think I've ever been in a job like this either.

00:48:06   But I've been adjacent to jobs like this.

00:48:09   I've known people in jobs like this.

00:48:11   I've seen parts of organizations that I've been in

00:48:13   that are like this.

00:48:14   And it really is my worst nightmare.

00:48:15   Like I would never want a job like this.

00:48:18   And I know a lot of people who wouldn't,

00:48:21   if they could possibly help.

00:48:22   And that's the thing about hiring engineers and programmers.

00:48:25   they can get work elsewhere. So if you don't have a stock that is going to have the potential

00:48:32   to skyrocket in the near future, it's going to be difficult to attract those people if

00:48:35   you're going to work them like this.

00:48:37   My first job out of school was working for a company that actually made slot machines

00:48:44   for Native American casinos in Oklahoma. And the company at the time was, I don't know,

00:48:51   maybe 10 or 15 developers, and they were all ex-EA folks.

00:48:56   Like, well, they were part of a company

00:49:00   that was bought by EA, and then EA ruined it

00:49:02   as EA is off to do.

00:49:03   And so these were guys, generally,

00:49:06   actually there were no women there at the time

00:49:09   that were developers, so they were all guys.

00:49:11   They were typically in their late 30s, early 40s,

00:49:13   generally speaking, completely single,

00:49:15   and generally speaking, didn't really have

00:49:19   a whole lot else to do other than work.

00:49:21   And not that they weren't great, great, great guys, and I don't mean that disparagingly,

00:49:25   it's just the fact of the matter was they didn't have spouses or children, and many

00:49:30   of them didn't seem to have a whole lot of hobbies other than work.

00:49:33   And so they worked constantly, just constantly.

00:49:38   And here it was, I came in fresh-faced and, you know, right out of school, and I didn't

00:49:43   want to work constantly.

00:49:45   I didn't want to work non-stop, and I left the company mostly because I had been asked

00:49:52   to do this really kind of impossible project before a trade show.

00:49:56   And I worked—I don't remember now, but I want to say it was 11 or 12 hours a day for

00:50:01   like a month or two, including most weekend days, trying to get this thing to work.

00:50:06   And I eventually did get it to work, and then the trade show came and they were preparing

00:50:12   everything they were going to show, and then just decided, "You know what?

00:50:14   we're not going to show that after all." And I was furious. I was beyond furious.

00:50:20   Because here it was, I busted my butt for all that time, and it was like, "Eh, well,

00:50:24   we don't need it after all. Thanks though." And I don't know, maybe that makes me a

00:50:29   millennial in the disparaging way. Maybe that makes me not a team player. But I

00:50:33   just thought it was ridiculous that here it was, I couldn't do any of the things I

00:50:38   wanted to do for a month. And then they just up and decided, "Oh yeah, we don't

00:50:42   that after all. And I left the company. You should not get a job in the games industry.

00:50:46   Oh totally. No you're absolutely right. You are absolutely right. But I didn't know any better

00:50:50   at the time. Yeah well that's part of that I think is again speaking to programming which is

00:50:55   the profession that I think we're all the most familiar with, even Marco, in large companies

00:51:01   is that that experience of having like a miniature version of what the game developers call crunch

00:51:07   time where something needs to ship and people, everyone puts in long hours and it's all hands

00:51:13   on deck.

00:51:14   I think every programmer goes through that, even if only on their own projects for like

00:51:18   fake artificial deadlines that they made for themselves, but certainly in other companies

00:51:22   where you have a software product or a release or a trade show or something and everyone

00:51:25   is killing themselves to make a deadline.

00:51:30   That experience I think is formative for programmers because it teaches you, like it makes you,

00:51:36   It's difficult, it's probably the most grueling physical thing that programmers have to do

00:51:41   because programming is not a grueling physical job.

00:51:43   You're not cracking rocks with a hammer all day, you're pressing keys on a keyboard and

00:51:47   sitting in a chair, right?

00:51:48   But it does take its toll on you in terms of lack of sleep or even just sitting in a

00:51:51   chair all day or not eating well and never mind seeing your family or whatever, like

00:51:55   say you don't have that, you're just a single person right out of college.

00:52:01   What I think you learn from that is you reflect on it after the experience, which hopefully

00:52:05   ends in whatever trade show whatever you say. What is it about the piece of

00:52:10   software that we were creating together that made it so difficult to do the

00:52:15   thing we wanted to do? Like how you know it's the stupid cliche that you see on

00:52:22   all the posters work smarter not harder but in programming like there's actually

00:52:27   a something behind that which is if you had done your earlier work differently

00:52:33   How would it have made your later work easier if you you know and that's that's basically all programming is like you write the program

00:52:39   Then you realize how you should have written it the next time if you're lucky enough to write a similar program you write it in

00:52:43   the better way and then you realize how you shouldn't have run it differently and the next time you realize you have

00:52:47   Have made it easy to change along these axes

00:52:50   But did not realize that this other axis was the one that it's gonna change along us now

00:52:54   It's really hard to change in that way

00:52:55   like

00:52:55   That's all programming is is doing something than realizing how you could have done it differently to make the future changes that you have to

00:53:01   make for whatever reason easier to make. Yep. And so crunch time and that you

00:53:05   know that hellish experience of just having to sit there and just grind

00:53:09   yourself into dust to try to get work done teaches you how to do your job

00:53:14   better a little bit but I think it also teaches you how incredibly inefficient

00:53:18   it is to bang your head against that wall that how if you had merely gone

00:53:21   home at a reasonable hour and had a full night's sleep and come in the next

00:53:23   morning you would have solved this problem faster and better. I think that's

00:53:26   another thing you learned during crunch and that gets back to the this article

00:53:30   that I think, I don't even know if it's related

00:53:31   to the Amazon thing, I don't remember,

00:53:33   it was so long ago I put these links in here.

00:53:34   But it's from Dustin Moskovitz talking about

00:53:37   how the 40 hour work week is not a,

00:53:41   he says it's not a great compromise

00:53:44   between capitalism and hedonism.

00:53:46   It's actually a carefully considered outcome,

00:53:49   I'm quoting from this thing,

00:53:50   of profit maximizing research by Henry Ford

00:53:53   in the early probably 20th century.

00:53:54   Basically, if you're running this experiment

00:53:57   and say, "Hey, if we work people 80 hours a week

00:54:00   versus 10 hours a week versus 20,"

00:54:02   there is a maximum where you get the most productivity

00:54:04   out of people.

00:54:05   If you work them like crazy, they get tired,

00:54:07   they get sloppy, they get angry, they do worse work,

00:54:09   they are less productive.

00:54:10   And of course, if you have them work one hour a week,

00:54:12   your output is not good.

00:54:13   So that you're trying to find,

00:54:14   not that 40 hours is some magic number or whatever,

00:54:16   but you're trying to find that the maximum

00:54:19   where you get the most productivity out of people

00:54:22   on a sustained basis.

00:54:23   If you drive people like dogs,

00:54:25   Maybe you'll get extra productivity out of them,

00:54:28   but you'll pay for it later.

00:54:29   And if you want to have a sustained business,

00:54:31   maybe that's why you need start ups.

00:54:32   Like there will be no sustained business

00:54:33   if we don't kill ourselves for these two weeks

00:54:35   leading up to this trade show.

00:54:36   So you kill yourself leading up to the trade show.

00:54:37   Again, I would say make sure you're killing yourself

00:54:39   for a potential payoff that's gonna benefit you,

00:54:41   not somebody else,

00:54:42   because it's not worth killing yourself

00:54:44   for somebody else to get rich.

00:54:45   But you wanna find a way to get the most out of people

00:54:53   on a sustained basis, and usually that ends up

00:54:57   being a work week in a work environment,

00:54:59   especially for programming,

00:55:01   that does not look scary from the outside.

00:55:03   That you work reasonable hours,

00:55:04   that you get a good night's sleep,

00:55:05   that you get exercise, that you eat right.

00:55:07   That is the only way in any human endeavor

00:55:09   to have sustained productivity out of people.

00:55:11   And programmers are not like people

00:55:13   breaking rocks with hammers,

00:55:14   in that if you grind one of them into dust

00:55:18   and they leave the company with RSI,

00:55:20   or have a nervous breakdown,

00:55:21   or do something else terrible, it's not so easy to just find another one. It's not just

00:55:26   like a warm body in a chair where you just need ballast for your giant barge, right?

00:55:30   It's supposedly a highly skilled job, and so if you're grinding up those workers and

00:55:35   spitting them out, that's even worse than if you're doing the same thing. It's worse

00:55:39   economically, if not morally speaking, than doing the same thing for a position where

00:55:43   if people get disgruntled and leave, you can easily find new applicants for it.

00:55:47   - Well, so that's something that I think you,

00:55:52   I think that actually is probably the case

00:55:54   that the industry does have so many,

00:55:58   like, you know, the right thing to do from our perspective,

00:56:02   because the three of us are all pretty experienced

00:56:05   programmers who are approaching middle age,

00:56:08   who we'd like to think are wise and care about

00:56:11   spending time with our families, right?

00:56:13   And so we are the ones saying, you know,

00:56:17   To do things with higher quality,

00:56:19   you should really have wiser, older programmers

00:56:23   who are more experienced,

00:56:24   who will therefore work way more efficiently

00:56:26   than young, crappy programmers

00:56:28   who are being worked 80 hours a week.

00:56:31   But there are so many of those young programmers

00:56:34   willing to go work for companies like Amazon,

00:56:36   which by the way, I mean, this story to me was nothing new

00:56:40   because I've heard horror stories

00:56:41   about how horrible working for Amazon is for years.

00:56:43   I don't think this is a surprise

00:56:46   to anybody who's ever paid attention to Amazon

00:56:48   and people who work there.

00:56:50   But I think there's enough people

00:56:53   willing to go into this business

00:56:55   to go work for a big company or a startup.

00:56:58   There's enough input of new computer science graduates

00:57:02   or new people who are teaching themselves programming

00:57:04   who want a job all over the world.

00:57:07   There's enough of these people coming in.

00:57:09   It's kind of like the entertainment business

00:57:10   where the employers are able to abuse

00:57:14   and burn people out.

00:57:16   And they're able to do this because there are still

00:57:19   a huge supply.

00:57:20   The way they always complain and make a bunch of noise

00:57:23   about how there's a shortage of good programmers

00:57:25   in this country is, I think, mostly BS.

00:57:27   - I think it's totally true.

00:57:29   There is a shortage of good programmers.

00:57:31   You didn't say a shortage of programmers.

00:57:32   You said a shortage of good, like,

00:57:34   your analogy with the entertainment industry

00:57:36   is exactly right, because that's why games development

00:57:39   is so bad, because everybody wants to be a games developer.

00:57:41   Hey, doesn't that sound fun?

00:57:43   and companies take advantage of that enthusiasm.

00:57:45   Oh, you know, there's a million applicants for this thing

00:57:47   because you get to be a game developer.

00:57:49   You get to make games.

00:57:50   Isn't that awesome?

00:57:50   Now they grind you into dust and when you burn out,

00:57:53   there's another enthusiastic person knocking at the door.

00:57:55   I want to be a games developer.

00:57:56   Games are awesome.

00:57:57   Let's grind you up.

00:57:57   But Amazon is not an entertainment company.

00:58:00   Amazon, I don't think has that kind of draw.

00:58:03   So then you're just left with the generic draw

00:58:05   of I want to be in the tech industry,

00:58:06   which is better than, you know,

00:58:10   working in the mail room at a fortune 500 company

00:58:13   and certainly pays better, but it's nothing compared to the games industry.

00:58:16   Like you said, the entertainment industry, I want to be in TV.

00:58:18   I want to be in movies.

00:58:19   Like that is a perfect opportunity to grind up enthusiastic, naive people.

00:58:23   But I just think the supply of programmers is it's more difficult to find,

00:58:28   you know, like I said, good programmers.

00:58:30   Now, maybe Amazon has the right strategy.

00:58:31   We would rather grind into dust tons of programmers and not even

00:58:36   use them the most efficiently.

00:58:37   And the ones that survive will learn really hard lessons and become amazing.

00:58:42   you know, efficient people and the ones that don't, oh, well, they'll leave and get a job someplace else, but we'll just scoop up a set of new graduates. Maybe that, in aggregate, gives them better throughput than trying to find programmers and give them a nice environment to work or whatever.

00:58:57   I don't know because Google seems to me takes the other attitude where they try to give you know

00:59:02   They try not to work people to death. They try to give people

00:59:05   You know room to figure out what it is

00:59:08   They're gonna do and it's like a nice work environment and Apple kind of seems in the middle where they don't tell you what they're

00:59:12   Doing but from my understanding is that people at Apple work super duper hard and I worry that Apple is grinding them up

00:59:17   But you can't really tell because I think the screams are muffled by whatever

00:59:23   And the reason Apple gets away with it is because they're more like the entertainment

00:59:27   industry.

00:59:28   I don't just work in the tech industry.

00:59:29   I work for Apple.

00:59:30   I make iPhones.

00:59:31   Well, I think that used to be the case for a long time, but I think now they're having

00:59:37   a really big problem attracting and retaining good talent.

00:59:40   And there's lots of reasons for this.

00:59:42   And one of them, I think, is this problem of they do work people really hard.

00:59:46   From what we've heard, it sounds like they really do work people harder than what I would

00:59:52   consider healthy. And they consider that okay from levels all the way to the top. And so,

00:59:59   and this is the kind of thing like, once workaholism sets into a company's culture, it never leaves.

01:00:06   That is something that is so incredibly difficult or impossible to ever roll back. It only ever

01:00:11   gets tight, it's like being tough on crime. You know, it's like politicians, it can

01:00:15   ever be less tough on crime. Like it's the same thing, like there's so many factors

01:00:20   that just encourage it to build upon itself and to increase the workaholism rather than

01:00:25   ever tone it back.

01:00:27   So, in Apple's case, it's pretty clear from anecdotes from the executives all the way

01:00:35   down to the employees that this is just how the company works. And I don't think that's

01:00:40   ever going to go away. And that is one of the problems that is going to make it hard

01:00:44   for Apple to attract and retain good talent over time.

01:00:49   And you've mentioned a few times so far, Jon, you mentioned that startups are kind of exempt

01:00:54   from this.

01:00:55   And I don't necessarily think that's true.

01:00:58   Now--

01:00:59   Not exempt, but it's a better fit.

01:01:00   Like to get a startup off the ground is one of those activities that you're going to have

01:01:05   to work yourself to death.

01:01:06   But you know it's not sustained.

01:01:08   That's the type of thing where it's like, this is not sustainable.

01:01:10   We can't run a company this way.

01:01:12   If we really want to have sustained productivity, we need to do X.

01:01:14   But in a startup, it's like, sustained productivity of what?

01:01:17   we're gonna be out of business in two weeks

01:01:19   if we don't do this thing or get this feature ready

01:01:21   for the trade show, which again is why most startups fail

01:01:23   because you try really hard to do this thing.

01:01:25   It's a young man's game, it's for a short period of time,

01:01:29   there's a clear thing, we're gonna try to do this thing,

01:01:31   and there's a time cap on it, you have exit strategies.

01:01:34   It is not like I'm going to work at this company

01:01:37   for 30 years and this is how I'm gonna,

01:01:39   for 30 years I'm gonna act as if I'm in the first

01:01:41   six months of a startup.

01:01:43   That's why I think you have to match the sort of

01:01:45   culture and work ethic and amount of effort

01:01:48   to the potential reward and to the expected time horizon.

01:01:51   So I'm not saying it's like good in startups,

01:01:53   'cause you know, startups grind people up

01:01:56   and spit them out as well, but that's what startups are.

01:01:58   It is totally inappropriate for a company

01:02:00   the size of Amazon, I think.

01:02:02   - Well, but you have to nip that on the butt early

01:02:05   because it builds over time, because like,

01:02:07   startups typically take on the work culture

01:02:12   of their founders, like that is just,

01:02:14   It starts off as the founders, as they grow, the company still works the way the founders

01:02:20   set it in motion to work, either intentionally or not.

01:02:23   And so, like I've been fortunate that my jobs have, you know, I've had crunch times here

01:02:29   and there, but it's never been the kind of thing that I hear about from other people,

01:02:34   like from some of these really horrible game companies or companies like Amazon.

01:02:37   It's never been that bad.

01:02:40   And part of that is because I've always stood up for myself.

01:02:44   I've always been at companies early enough

01:02:49   to have the ability to push back a little bit

01:02:52   and to stand up for myself a little bit.

01:02:53   And it didn't always work, but most of the time

01:02:55   I was able to do it.

01:02:56   And this is the kind of thing that you can't just say,

01:03:00   "Well, this one time we gotta push really hard,

01:03:04   "but then we're gonna be healthy again,

01:03:06   "then we'll hire more help," or whatever.

01:03:08   Because in reality, the later time when,

01:03:12   oh, we're gonna do this temporarily,

01:03:14   but then we're gonna fix it, that time never comes.

01:03:16   Because after you finish with this horrible death race,

01:03:20   there's another one that comes up right afterwards.

01:03:22   - But it does come.

01:03:23   Like I think in the natural life cycle a company is,

01:03:26   the founders that get the startup off the ground

01:03:27   have to be worker-holics, otherwise you don't succeed,

01:03:29   'cause that's the nature of the beast there.

01:03:31   But then I think most companies settle into

01:03:34   sort of fat, happy middle age,

01:03:37   where the company carves out places for people who just want to show up and punch the clock

01:03:42   and do a boring job and not be too stressed about it or whatever.

01:03:47   That's what happens when companies get big.

01:03:48   That's what happens when most companies get big.

01:03:49   This phenomenon of gigantic companies that are still run "like startups" where they're

01:03:56   hungry and working their employees to death is I think a fairly modern phenomenon.

01:04:01   I guess not modern.

01:04:02   I guess you saw sweatshops is the oldest.

01:04:04   Slavery and sweatshops.

01:04:05   oldest form of like we're just gonna grind people up but in the sort of in

01:04:09   our lifetimes the trajectory was if you were a startup at all you got out of

01:04:14   phase quickly and became a serious business where everything was much more

01:04:18   relaxed and that's why smaller companies came and ate your lunch in the late 90s

01:04:22   2000s with disruption and all that stuff and now I think the new normal is what

01:04:28   you're reacting to is like isn't that what always happens a disruptive startup

01:04:32   It started by some workaholic become successful because those guys work themselves to death and that workaholic retains control the company another phenomenon

01:04:39   that is much more common now than used to be retains control of the company and

01:04:43   Pushes that culture down and all the employees and never lets it go because they're paranoid that they're gonna get their lunch eaten by the next

01:04:50   Little disruptive startup Apple is weird in that it started as a small hungry thing

01:04:55   It got fat and happy and then went from fat and happy with a giant, you know, Apple advanced research

01:05:01   What the hell was that thing called?

01:05:02   Apple, Apple technology, ATG, Apple technology group.

01:05:06   They were at the point where they had people doing like,

01:05:09   you know, architecture astronaut stuff,

01:05:12   making up these grand plans like OpenDoc

01:05:15   and Apple technology group, ATG.

01:05:17   Thank you, Tipster.

01:05:18   Making these pie in the sky things

01:05:20   and people who had jobs,

01:05:21   they're just gonna be like an Apple lifer

01:05:23   and just hang around and think grand ideas

01:05:26   and maybe noodle on a product

01:05:27   or something that might become a product someday.

01:05:29   And Steve Jobs came back and said,

01:05:31   We can't afford that we're going out of business cut down to the bone and turned it back into a workaholic culture

01:05:37   So that is a weird, you know, Apple has a weird history. Anyway, that is a weird phenomena, but I think it's

01:05:41   What you're reacting to Marco is the the Amazon even like Elon Musk PayPal Tesla

01:05:48   that kind of model where you never you never let the company get out of startup phase because

01:05:54   That's how you get disrupted and you just no matter how big you get even if you're as big as Amazon or Apple the way

01:05:59   you survive is by continuing to act as if you're in a startup but the but it's

01:06:04   not you're not anymore it is an inappropriate environment to to grind

01:06:08   people up like that because you can't have a company with 30,000 employees all

01:06:12   of whom stand to become multi-millionaires by the next quarter

01:06:14   if you just hit these these numbers that's not going to happen right that

01:06:17   time in the company's life has passed it's weird that when Apple had the

01:06:20   second phase they made a whole bunch of millionaires out of stock options or

01:06:23   whatever but again if you're using Apple as your model okay start a company in the

01:06:27   the 70s, be phenomenally successful, almost go out of business but not quite, and then

01:06:31   come rain--you know, that's a tough plan to pull off.

01:06:33   So yeah, if you can almost go out of business and then become the biggest company in the

01:06:35   world, you'll make a whole bunch of new millionaires, and Apple did.

01:06:38   And so those people probably don't regret working their fingers to the bone during that

01:06:42   phase, but that I think is an aberration.

01:06:44   I think the people working their fingers to the bone on Amazon are not going to get the

01:06:48   same payoff for their effort of investment.

01:06:50   - Right, and this is actually, I mean,

01:06:53   most startups that come out of our industry,

01:06:58   you have to be one of the first, I don't know,

01:07:01   five people who work there to really see

01:07:04   a massive payoff in all likelihood.

01:07:07   You know, I've had so many friends in so many companies,

01:07:09   so many startups, I know very few of them

01:07:11   who have actually had a meaningful payout

01:07:13   from those stock options.

01:07:15   Like, it just doesn't, the numbers are so far against you.

01:07:19   It's not even close.

01:07:21   Chances are you probably won't make anything

01:07:25   from your stock options,

01:07:26   and if you do make something from them,

01:07:29   you might make maybe an extra,

01:07:32   in the tens of thousands of dollars, which is nice,

01:07:35   but not necessarily worth working yourself

01:07:37   to the bone for four years.

01:07:38   It doesn't usually work out the way that they promised,

01:07:43   but it is like the entertainment business.

01:07:44   They know, the people who start startups,

01:07:47   the people who fund startups,

01:07:48   people who advise startups, they all know that this promise is there and they sell people

01:07:55   on this promise and people come in thinking, "Man, I'm going to get stock options. I'm

01:07:59   going to make a ton of money." And the fact is it doesn't usually work out that way unless

01:08:04   you are one of the founders. If you're one of the founders, you'll own enough stock to

01:08:09   make it work pretty well. But if you come in as employee number 40 or whatever, the

01:08:15   chances are you're not gonna make a ton of money on that,

01:08:18   but you're still gonna be in this environment

01:08:20   where it is insane workaholism,

01:08:23   and everyone is pressuring you to dedicate your life

01:08:27   to the company at every waking hour.

01:08:28   And by the way, I don't think I've ever seen a startup fail

01:08:32   because it didn't execute quickly enough.

01:08:35   Have you ever seen that?

01:08:37   - I'm sorry, a lot of them fail for that reason,

01:08:39   but I don't know if that means you should've gone faster.

01:08:43   Well, could you have gone faster?

01:08:44   gets back to what I was talking about with like is it actually more productive past a certain point

01:08:50   because yeah you can do crunch and you can for a certain period of time but and you know you can

01:08:56   go longer if you're younger or whatever let's not make any more analogies here but uh at a certain

01:09:02   point you get massively diminishing returns and then negative returns you're hoping that the life

01:09:08   of a startup is short enough that you don't reach that point but for big companies on a sustained

01:09:13   basis like you know what you're getting is like this startup fail this start was

01:09:19   gonna fail anyway because I can tell you the 17 reasons the start was gonna fail

01:09:22   even if they have executed it more quickly it's always easy to find lots of

01:09:26   reasons why a startup could fail but startup is the one type of business

01:09:30   where sometimes it really does matter oh if you had actually been in that trade

01:09:33   show and this other company hadn't it could have really changed you know the

01:09:36   the history of your company or if this demo to an important investor had gone

01:09:40   better you would have got that round of funding and instead you didn't. Like that's the life

01:09:44   of a startup. It's always balancing on a razor's edge of something or another. So I think that

01:09:49   is a real thing happening then. It's just that no one really knows. A lot of it is just

01:09:54   serendipity, a lot of it is luck, a lot of it is right place, right time. A lot of it

01:09:59   is things you can't control. But as far as I've been able to determine the successful

01:10:03   strategy of startups it's really really difficult to succeed as a startup with a super laid

01:10:09   back attitude unless you start off with basically unlimited funds or a really long runway and

01:10:14   a lot of money or whatever.

01:10:16   But for most of the startups starting from zero, you really do have to work hard for

01:10:20   a short period of time.

01:10:21   And I think that the whole startup phenomenon, viewed broadly, is lots of small companies

01:10:27   trying a bunch of ideas and finding out as fast as possible whether they work or not.

01:10:31   Like that's the whole thing.

01:10:32   And so try this, didn't work, okay, let's try another startup.

01:10:35   Try this, didn't work, or try to do the pivot where you're trying to pretend you're the

01:10:38   the same company where really you're basically just doing multiple startups at the same time.

01:10:42   Because you don't want to find out three years later that your idea doesn't work. You want

01:10:45   to find out ASAP because you can't crunch for three years.

01:10:48   Yeah. You know, the thing to me is, in my personal opinion, the best approach is whatever

01:10:55   your job may be, just work really, really hard coming out of school or in early on in

01:11:03   your career, work really hard and establish yourself and get yourself to the position

01:11:07   that you are making enough money that you are comfortable.

01:11:11   That could mean $30,000.

01:11:13   It could be $100,000.

01:11:15   It could be $300,000.

01:11:16   It could be $3 million.

01:11:18   However you define comfortable, get to comfortable.

01:11:22   And once you're there, then you really shouldn't have to do a death march ever again.

01:11:29   Very rarely.

01:11:30   I worked very hard for a very, well, to me, a very long time, given how old I am.

01:11:36   And I'm now at a company that I rarely have to do a death march.

01:11:40   I could probably work harder.

01:11:43   I could probably make more money.

01:11:44   I could probably even find a different job where I could work harder still and make more

01:11:49   money still.

01:11:50   But in the end of the day, we are comfortable.

01:11:52   And I am able to pretty reliably put in about 45 hours a week and then come home to my family.

01:11:57   And to me anyway, that's more important.

01:12:00   I work so that I can live.

01:12:04   I do not live to work.

01:12:07   - Well, and also, you're working

01:12:09   so that you can crunch at home now,

01:12:11   because I think-- - Also true.

01:12:12   - The best analogy for, the best,

01:12:15   the sort of second crunch,

01:12:16   like if you're just out of school

01:12:17   and you really, you wanna get your career established

01:12:19   and you're working hard at your job, whatever it is,

01:12:20   make sure you're not working too hard,

01:12:21   make sure you're not being exploited,

01:12:23   then you have a kid and you realize,

01:12:24   oh, you can have crunch time at home too,

01:12:26   and it's called an infant.

01:12:27   Or like, you know, twins, or even more, like,

01:12:30   that's the type of thing where you feel,

01:12:33   Again, your child is basically your startup times a million.

01:12:38   You are willing to crunch for that, the whole point.

01:12:40   If you decide to have children,

01:12:42   and this is what you're gonna do with your life,

01:12:43   it's super hard and it's gonna be a lot of work,

01:12:44   and there's crunch time in kids.

01:12:46   And it's not when the kid is 15 years old,

01:12:48   although depending on the kid, whatever.

01:12:49   But yeah, infants are hard and you will put in long hours

01:12:53   and you will be at the end of the rope at your rope

01:12:56   and going out of your mind,

01:12:58   but that's what you're signing up for

01:12:59   when you have a startup or have a kid or whatever.

01:13:02   But I think for most people, that is a choice

01:13:04   that they're making and they feel like it is well worth it

01:13:06   to do for their kids.

01:13:07   Not so much worth it to do it for Amazon

01:13:10   that doesn't care about them

01:13:11   and will never visit them when they're old.

01:13:14   - So in summary, the best startup is a child.

01:13:17   - Or the worst startup, depending on the point of view.

01:13:20   - And also, I'd just like to point out too that,

01:13:22   and Jon, I still disagree with you on a lot of this.

01:13:26   I don't agree with the assumption in our industry

01:13:30   that crunch time is required for a startup's success.

01:13:35   Because I have seen many counter examples

01:13:37   to startups that have succeeded that do very well,

01:13:40   that don't do crazy crunch time burnout workaholism.

01:13:44   - Well, let's put it this way.

01:13:46   It is a common characteristic of startups that succeed.

01:13:48   Whether it's necessary or not,

01:13:50   you could say it's not really necessary,

01:13:51   it just so happens that a lot of,

01:13:53   it's just a correlation, not a causation.

01:13:55   In fact, those ones are succeeding despite the crunch.

01:13:57   I'm willing to believe that.

01:13:58   But you have to say it's highly correlated.

01:14:00   Like successful startups, they all

01:14:02   have stories about crunch, right?

01:14:04   So would you say it's sufficient but not necessary?

01:14:07   I don't know.

01:14:08   The correlation is pretty darn strong.

01:14:11   I totally think it's possible to succeed without it.

01:14:13   Because again, I think even more important

01:14:15   than how much you crunch is right idea, right place,

01:14:18   right time, right talents.

01:14:19   Some things you can control, some things you can't control.

01:14:22   Those are much more important than how hard did you work.

01:14:25   Because the common theme, and I think in all startups,

01:14:28   is, including the ones that fail is a bunch of people working really hard. So it's not

01:14:32   correlated with success. It's just like, if you're in a startup, this is the way they're

01:14:36   done. I think what you're saying is like, if all the startups got like a big startup

01:14:39   convention, they said, let's just all agree that all startups in the entire world, we're

01:14:43   not going to drive ourselves into the ground. Would they have the same ratio? I think they

01:14:47   probably end up having exactly the same ratio of successes. And who the successes are may

01:14:52   shift around a little bit, but not in any significant way. And it just it's just that

01:14:56   It's like a race.

01:14:58   Like if everyone is, when the race decided

01:14:59   they were gonna walk instead of run,

01:15:00   the race would be slower,

01:15:02   but everyone wants to get the finish on it

01:15:03   as soon as possible, so they all run.

01:15:05   You know what I mean?

01:15:06   Like you'd say, I don't think it's necessary

01:15:07   to run to have a race.

01:15:08   If we all just walked and were calm,

01:15:11   and we just said you can't have both feet

01:15:13   off the ground at the same time,

01:15:14   the results of the race would be the same,

01:15:16   but it's human nature, you just wanna run,

01:15:18   even if you're gonna get tired faster.

01:15:21   I don't know, this is a terrible analogy.

01:15:23   - Yeah, it doesn't match what I've seen.

01:15:25   Like, I have seen, like, to me, the big crunch time

01:15:29   is kind of like people who always talk about

01:15:32   how busy and stressed out they are.

01:15:34   It's like a voluntary take-on of stress.

01:15:39   And it is almost always self-imposed and optional.

01:15:44   - Well, but you see everyone else running.

01:15:47   Don't you see everyone else running

01:15:49   and you feel like you have to run too?

01:15:50   And again, if you feel like, well, if they weren't running,

01:15:52   I wouldn't be running, but they are running,

01:15:54   So I feel like I have to run, the root question is,

01:15:57   would you actually be, like if you could run the experiment,

01:16:00   if you got identical groups of people or something,

01:16:02   and like you said, you guys aren't allowed to crunch

01:16:04   and you guys are, this gets back to the productivity thing.

01:16:06   Wouldn't they be more productive

01:16:07   if they had a good night's sleep?

01:16:08   But I think for a young company,

01:16:12   there are events and deadlines,

01:16:15   whether they're self-imposed or not,

01:16:17   that are significant enough

01:16:18   that can make or break the company.

01:16:19   That's just not true for a larger company.

01:16:21   And so by crunching, you can temporarily increase

01:16:24   your productivity.

01:16:25   So you are, it's like juicing or taking steroids

01:16:29   or whatever, you are temporarily increasing

01:16:30   your productivity knowing full well, or maybe not knowing,

01:16:33   but you're gonna find out that your productivity

01:16:35   is gonna fall off a cliff after a short period of time

01:16:37   because the most important thing right now

01:16:38   is who is ready in time for this trade show?

01:16:41   - You know what, honestly, I've never seen that.

01:16:45   I've never seen a company that had to rush

01:16:48   to make a trade show or an investor meeting or anything

01:16:51   where that was actually really gonna be the decision.

01:16:54   Like usually either you have traction or you don't.

01:16:57   Either your product is rooted in a good idea

01:17:00   and is finding an audience or it isn't.

01:17:03   And usually it doesn't come down to one date,

01:17:06   one deadline, one meeting, one presentation.

01:17:09   - Not just one deadline, but like use your career

01:17:11   at Tumblr as an example.

01:17:12   Like it may not have been the crunchiest of crunches,

01:17:15   but there was a time early on when you were worried

01:17:17   about servers going down and you would get paged

01:17:21   in the middle of the night or whatever,

01:17:22   that's basically, that's a work-life balance

01:17:24   that you would never accept now.

01:17:25   But had you not been there to fix some MySQL problem

01:17:28   in the middle of the night or whatever,

01:17:30   and Tumblr got the reputation for the site

01:17:31   that was always down, that could have really affected,

01:17:35   Tumblr might not have taken off,

01:17:37   as there's lots of other sites that were similar to Tumblr,

01:17:38   and the type of thing of like, oh, it has bugs

01:17:43   or it's always down or it doesn't work right,

01:17:45   or the signup, not that you were killing yourself

01:17:47   to do it, but certainly you were working really hard during that time because there was only

01:17:51   a few people, and it's not like you had this giant staff of people to watch all the servers,

01:17:54   it was you, right? That is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about like that you

01:17:58   didn't sleep for seven days straight to make some trade show. Everyone's crunch is different.

01:18:02   But during that time when it was a small group of people trying to keep this site that is

01:18:06   growing incredibly fast up and running so that you could take advantage of the traction

01:18:10   that you had, that was an important thing to do. And if you had not done that and said,

01:18:15   know what I'm going to ignore that page and I'm only going to work from 9 to 5

01:18:18   and I'll bring the service back up in the morning that would have materially

01:18:22   affected the prospects of Tumblr success and probably would have gotten you

01:18:27   booted out of the company because that's like it's like look there's only a

01:18:30   couple of us here you can't just say I'll fix the server in the morning

01:18:33   because your work-life balance is important you have to do it and you

01:18:36   felt responsible for do it and you wanted to do it and you were invested in

01:18:39   doing it and you did it and Tumblr is successful but don't you think there's a

01:18:42   connection between that? There is a connection but I think it's a relatively

01:18:46   loose one. Like Tumblr was taking off whether you know whether I had the site

01:18:51   up or not and if I took an hour to fix the site or five minutes to fix the site

01:18:57   didn't really matter. But you couldn't come in you couldn't come in the next

01:19:00   morning and do it you couldn't say you know what I'll look at that tomorrow.

01:19:02   Sometimes we sometimes problems around that we didn't even know about sometimes

01:19:06   our monitoring system failed us and we weren't alerted to problems and things

01:19:09   were down for hours and it was fine.

01:19:13   I mean, I always point to this example back then,

01:19:16   Flickr was down for a whole four day weekend one time,

01:19:19   like in 2008-ish.

01:19:21   A week later, everyone forgot.

01:19:23   - Yeah, I mean, Twitter is a good example too,

01:19:26   where they were down all the time,

01:19:27   but I think that's after they crossed the hump.

01:19:29   Like, you know what I mean?

01:19:29   You don't know, once you're on the other side of the hump,

01:19:31   there's certain inevitability that takes on.

01:19:33   It's just that when you're on the near side of the hump,

01:19:36   not the far side of the hump, you're never gonna get over,

01:19:38   You're never going to become the thing that that people talk about being down for four days unless you in the beginning

01:19:44   Have some minimum level of dealing with growth in a way that lets you just start, you know

01:19:50   Taking off like I mean again just think about how you worked

01:19:53   It was it all just a mistake that you were putting in those long hours and worrying about things

01:19:58   And if you had just known if you had known more than you would have just been like just chill don't worry about it

01:20:02   Don't work such long hours and the company would have been equally successful

01:20:05   Were you just running because you saw everyone else running?

01:20:08   You're saying that you should have just been working from nine to five and in the end

01:20:11   Your sort of hard work and dedication to making sure things were up all the time was a foolish expenditure of energy

01:20:17   You should just like if you had known then when you know now you would have just worked from nine to five

01:20:21   Confident in the fact that the success of the company would have been equal

01:20:25   You could be right but the bottom line is you ran because you saw everyone else running and I think that will continue to happen

01:20:30   Most of the time I did just work, you know,

01:20:34   nine to five or whatever, it might have been like

01:20:35   10 to seven or whatever, 10 to six,

01:20:37   but like, you know, most of the time, that's all I did.

01:20:39   I was not programming at home for Tumblr, ever.

01:20:42   Like that hardly, that happened maybe twice, like ever,

01:20:44   just 'cause I had to quickly fix a bug or something,

01:20:46   but like, that hardly ever happened.

01:20:48   That was not at all normal.

01:20:49   Most of, for the most part, I maintained a very healthy

01:20:54   work-life balance with Tumblr, I was--

01:20:55   - So you were sleeping next to your phone, weren't you?

01:20:57   - Yes, but that was, a lot of that, honestly,

01:21:00   self-imposed stress. And that was mostly because we took too long to hire a sysadmin, which

01:21:07   was partly my fault because I kept saying, "You know what? I still got this." You know,

01:21:10   I mean, it was certainly partly my fault.

01:21:12   Jared: But if you didn't have that drive, that self-imposed stress, don't you think

01:21:17   that someone, be it David or someone else, would eventually get to the point of, "You

01:21:21   know what? You either need to start sleeping with your phone or you need to hire someone

01:21:26   to sleep with their phone. Like, if you didn't have that, if you weren't as proud of your

01:21:32   work as you are, then I think it would have caused problems.

01:21:38   It's possible. I mean, you know, it's hard to know retrospectively, you know, what would

01:21:41   have been different, you know, but we at Tumblr in those early days when it was just me and

01:21:47   David, we did not have a culture of workaholism, really. David pushed himself a lot harder

01:21:52   than I pushed myself, but I wasn't really penalized for that for the most part. You

01:21:56   know, he would be thinking about it constantly because that's just David. You know, he would

01:22:01   be thinking about anything constantly, like whatever his work is the rest of his life,

01:22:05   he'll be thinking about it constantly. He's just that kind of person. But I try to have

01:22:09   a more separated balance between home and work and my side projects or my family versus

01:22:17   my job or whatever.

01:22:18   I think your scale may be calibrated strangely because the amount of time and effort you

01:22:23   put into your work now is probably still higher than most people who are in those fat and

01:22:28   happy jobs.

01:22:29   Not even close.

01:22:31   Again, maybe you haven't spent enough time in the fat and happy companies to see exactly

01:22:36   how that'll work some...

01:22:40   Maybe you're not as big a workaholic as David, but you have a higher than average drive to

01:22:46   do things.

01:22:47   I think Casey would agree on that.

01:22:49   Like, the amount of stuff that you have to do

01:22:52   and the amount of stuff that you actually do,

01:22:54   you need to be doing stuff.

01:22:56   You need to have lots of things that you're doing

01:22:57   and you work hard at them,

01:22:58   harder than you actually need to work at them.

01:23:00   So I think your scale may be off a little bit.

01:23:02   And I'm willing to believe that you don't work

01:23:03   as hard as David because Tumblr is his thing

01:23:06   and you were brought on, right?

01:23:08   And so, again, the successful companies

01:23:11   that are founded by workaholics or whatever,

01:23:14   but in the grand scheme of things, like,

01:23:16   I mean, and again, it still gets back to your question, like, does that mean you had to?

01:23:21   Maybe, maybe not.

01:23:22   Like you can't run the experiment, you can't go back in time and say, I'm going to do tumblr

01:23:26   again, but I'm going to do it differently.

01:23:28   I'm going to hire that system in earlier.

01:23:30   I'm going to just have a laid back attitude and everything will be fine because really

01:23:34   that's not what matters in the end.

01:23:36   What matters is we have the right idea.

01:23:38   We have the right design.

01:23:39   We have the right, you know, so many other things.

01:23:42   Our timing was right.

01:23:43   You know, the choices we made about what the product was going to be.

01:23:45   We made the right choices about product design.

01:23:48   There are so many things.

01:23:49   We made the right choices about when to take funding, when not to take funding.

01:23:52   You could ask the same thing of Mark Zuckerberg for the whole tortured history of Facebook

01:23:58   and how so many companies tried to acquire it and how he said no and how that could have

01:24:02   been a terrible mistake and how hard did he work and how hard did he work with people

01:24:05   under him and all that other stuff.

01:24:07   It's difficult to say, but whether it's necessary or not, it seems to be a characteristic of

01:24:13   the startup that, kind of in the same way that it's a characteristic of the games industry,

01:24:18   and the same way you could say that it's not necessary and it shouldn't be done, but it

01:24:22   is what we have now.

01:24:23   And to change it, I think you have to change, I don't know how you change it for startups.

01:24:27   For games industry, you have to change the incentives, or maybe you have to have workers

01:24:31   that unionize, or maybe you have to have that backlash that happened a little while ago

01:24:34   with EA.

01:24:36   You know, the EA spouses and all the EA employees getting, complaining about getting ground

01:24:40   up by the machine. And I think this New York Times story about Amazon is part of that phenomenon,

01:24:46   raising awareness about this issue among the pampered white collar workers so the pampered

01:24:50   white collar workers can have angry blog posts and write a Medium post about it just hiding

01:24:55   Henry Ford. I don't know, maybe that's the system working.

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01:27:37   One more bit on workerholism before I move on because I don't want people to think that

01:27:41   workerholism is all bad.

01:27:42   I was thinking of the times that I've, the various places that I've worked where I've

01:27:46   – I was thinking of one particular instance where I came home on a weekend and it was

01:27:51   a programming problem, database sign programming combo problem that I had been working on all

01:27:56   all week and had come up with a solution that kind of worked, but I wasn't satisfied with

01:28:00   it.

01:28:01   And I think I woke up like on Saturday morning and I had a good idea for how to do it.

01:28:04   I think I'd finally figured it out and I just rewrote it all on a weekend.

01:28:09   Why does that happen?

01:28:10   Like part of workaholism among the founders and among everybody else is that if you have

01:28:14   a job that you love doing, if you love programming, you will find yourself thinking about during

01:28:19   your idle time, again, walking the dog, taking a shower.

01:28:21   Sometimes you know, this is all pre kids if you you know, if you don't have kids again

01:28:26   If you don't have kids, you don't realize how much free time you have

01:28:28   so

01:28:30   Enjoy, you know youth is wasted on the young and free time is wasted on people with no kids

01:28:34   You actually have a lot of time even if you're married I was married at the time

01:28:39   But there is enough time for you to like to spend one weekend, you know

01:28:45   Reasonable hours stopping for meals not staying up late or anything. We're just like, you know what this weekend

01:28:49   I'm not going to do this thing.

01:28:50   And why did I do it?

01:28:51   I guess I was invested in the company.

01:28:53   It was a smallish company that had been bought by a larger company, but it was a bunch of

01:28:56   people who were all friends, who were all working on a product and a thing that we really

01:29:00   believed in.

01:29:01   This is when I worked in the place that did ebooks and everything.

01:29:03   You know, it was something that we all believed in and it was important to get this done.

01:29:07   And there wasn't any sort of external deadline.

01:29:10   There wasn't any reason this had to be done.

01:29:11   I had already done it at work.

01:29:13   I just had a better idea for it.

01:29:14   And I enjoy programming.

01:29:15   So what I bet, you know, getting back to the Marco lifestyle, what I did that weekend for

01:29:18   fun was I programmed. Programming is fun if you're a programmer and you like programming.

01:29:23   Was I a sucker for doing work on the weekend? No, but it really has to be on your own terms.

01:29:30   I think that's the difference where if you feel like you have to do this to keep your job,

01:29:36   or you're being pressured to do it, or the culture at work is making you put in hours that you don't

01:29:41   want to work, or there's an expectation that you're gonna do it on the weekend, no one had

01:29:44   any expectation I was gonna rewrite this perfectly good working thing that I had written during the

01:29:48   the week that I'm gonna rewrite it all on a weekend because I had a better idea, I wanted

01:29:51   to do it and it was fun.

01:29:53   And so that's like the light side of this where if you are lucky enough to have a job

01:29:57   that you enjoy and your "leisure time activity" on the weekend is to do more programming even

01:30:03   for your job that no one asks you to do because it will make you feel better and you'll come

01:30:07   in the next week and be like finally I can delete that crap that I wrote last week and

01:30:10   replace it with this thing that I rewrote entirely in a weekend and it's so much cleaner

01:30:13   and so much nicer and I have so much more confidence that it's bug free and it's easier

01:30:18   to expand in these ways, like that's a fun thing to do if you're a programmer.

01:30:21   Again, we should all be lucky enough to have the type of job that we actually enjoy doing.

01:30:25   It's, I guess, probably rare because how often do you work in a company that you feel that

01:30:30   personally invested in? How often do you want to do that? The farthest I get from it these

01:30:34   days is probably, I mean, I will find myself thinking about work problems during the weekend,

01:30:39   in the shower, drifting off to sleep. I just usually save those ideas until I go back into

01:30:43   the office on Monday to work in them because I feel like, you know what, they get enough of my

01:30:46   time and really when you have kids you can't like if you know it's a it's a phase in life like uh

01:30:53   what would you rather be doing this again i i can't imagine i guess the closest i was doing

01:30:57   my reviews where i would carve out time to do reviews but even that i felt like boy if i wasn't

01:31:02   getting paid for these reviews i wouldn't i would have stopped doing them a long time ago right so

01:31:06   there always has to be a balance so anyway i just didn't want to like make it seem like if you are

01:31:10   working really hard at your job and bringing your work home with you it's not always bad sometimes

01:31:15   you're choosing to do it and then it feels better even though in effect it's the same

01:31:21   thing.

01:31:22   Oh, you're basically doing unpaid work for the man on your own time.

01:31:27   You're a sucker.

01:31:28   Sometimes it's fun.

01:31:29   Yeah, I agree.

01:31:30   There have definitely been times that I've not been able to get a work problem out of

01:31:33   my head and the best way to get it out of my head is to get it out of my head and put

01:31:37   it on paper, so to speak, and just do it.

01:31:40   Well, one way to say it, Marco cheats on, and Marco's version of this is that when his

01:31:44   His boss lets him off for the weekend.

01:31:45   Sometimes he rewrites things in Go, just because it's fun.

01:31:48   Of course, his boss is also him, but it's a different him.

01:31:50   It's like the working during the weekend.

01:31:52   And then it's like, you know what?

01:31:53   I can rewrite this all in Go.

01:31:54   And then he comes in and he's like,

01:31:56   you can tell your boss later.

01:31:57   I rewrote it all in Go for the weekend.

01:31:58   It's awesome.

01:31:59   It's like, oh, that was nice.

01:32:00   You didn't have to do that.

01:32:01   - Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:32:06   Harry's, Warby Parker, and Hover.

01:32:09   And we will see you next week.

01:32:10   (upbeat music)

01:32:13   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:32:18   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:32:20   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:32:23   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:32:28   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

01:32:31   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

01:32:34   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:32:39   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:32:48   So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:32:52   Auntie Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:33:00   It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:33:03   They didn't mean to, accidental (accidental)

01:33:08   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:33:11   - I don't even know if you did that on a weekend,

01:33:15   but of course time has no meaning in your world anyway.

01:33:16   - Yeah. - Weekend weekday,

01:33:18   until Adam enters school, then weekend to weekdays,

01:33:22   we'll suddenly have meaning again.

01:33:23   - Oh yeah, no, I can't wait for that to begin,

01:33:24   'cause we had a nice routine going.

01:33:26   By the way, I think that you are probably overestimating

01:33:30   how much I actually work, like time-wise.

01:33:33   - Well, nowadays I know, but I'm just saying,

01:33:35   like you, let's put it this way,

01:33:37   You put in more effort than I think I would put in if I was in your position.

01:33:40   And I don't know, Casey, can you think if you were in Marco's position in life,

01:33:45   would you put in as much effort as he does on the various projects that he does or would you slack off more?

01:33:50   I don't know. I honestly don't know. Half of me wants to say I would slack off 10 times more.

01:33:54   And the other half of me says, I think you might be overestimating how much time Marco's been sitting in front of the computer.

01:34:00   I mean, you guys, you are both smart, curious programmers.

01:34:04   you would get bored senseless if you weren't using your brain.

01:34:07   Oh yeah. I'm not saying you're doing it like to be a magnanimous. It's just,

01:34:11   you know, it's the same with all of us.

01:34:12   Like your brain will eat itself if you don't give it something to do. Right.

01:34:15   And it's like, that's what the, how workaholics feel too.

01:34:17   Like Elon Musk goes exactly the same way. He's like, look, if I not,

01:34:20   if I don't do, if I don't do spaceships and electric cars,

01:34:22   my brain will eat itself. I have to do this.

01:34:24   It's not like it's barely even a choice.

01:34:26   Like that is the type of person they are. I just feel like the,

01:34:29   that you have more, I have a higher capacity for doing nothing than you do.

01:34:34   I think.

01:34:35   (laughing)

01:34:36   Honed over many, many years.

01:34:38   Like the idea, like you said,

01:34:38   like you're gonna go off on a vacation

01:34:40   and sit on the beach and do nothing.

01:34:42   I'm pretty darn good at that at this point.

01:34:44   - Right, see, I can't do that.

01:34:45   I mean, I'm going to the beach next week.

01:34:48   I'm planning, like I'm bringing my laptop.

01:34:49   Like the idea of going to the beach and doing nothing,

01:34:53   that sounds awful.

01:34:54   Like I would enjoy about maybe two days of that.

01:34:57   And then be like, all right, let me,

01:34:58   I gotta turn my brain back on now.

01:35:00   - Yeah, I have a much higher tolerance for it.

01:35:02   I can go much longer.

01:35:02   I agree that I couldn't do it year round

01:35:05   'cause my brain would eat itself too.

01:35:07   I would be building tiny machines out of sand.

01:35:10   You know, I would just have to be doing something, right?

01:35:12   So we're all like that to some degree.

01:35:14   It's just a question of what kind of tolerance

01:35:16   you have for it.

01:35:17   I feel like part of it is being old,

01:35:20   where you're like, I did all the working hard stuff

01:35:23   and I still do it and just a plain old boring

01:35:26   40 hour program or work week leaves me

01:35:30   more like mentally tired and like the beautiful thing about vacations is you can get away

01:35:36   from all your responsibilities except keeping your children alive and feeding yourself,

01:35:40   right?

01:35:41   And just have 20 minutes to sit on a beach and just like just look at the clouds go by,

01:35:47   right?

01:35:48   And that I feel like recharges me so that I can go back to my regular life.

01:35:53   I don't think I could do it year round, but as I get older, my tolerance for doing nothing

01:35:57   gets greater.

01:35:58   Yeah, I, um, I, we've talked about this on the show, I used to hate going to the beach,

01:36:06   which I only ever did a handful of times in my life. And as I've gotten slightly older,

01:36:12   and Marco and I are the same age, I found that if you put some sort of tent-like object

01:36:17   on the beach so I'm not sitting in direct sunlight, and put a good book in my hands,

01:36:21   I could do that easily a week. That being said, when I was at the beach, what, last

01:36:26   I definitely spent a few hours programming towards the end of the trip because I had an itch

01:36:32   I decided I wanted to scratch and it couldn't get out of my head.

01:36:34   Yeah, I don't think I've ever programmed on vacation,

01:36:37   but I think part of that has to do with like the environment is not good for that.

01:36:41   Right, you don't have your big monitor, you could spread out like you talked about last week, you're programming in a phone booth.

01:36:46   No, there's a bunch of other people there.

01:36:47   There's a bunch of other people there and they want to go places and do things and kids are running around.

01:36:51   Yeah, that's it.

01:36:52   No, I mean like for me, like if I'm going to be doing something with my brain on vacation,

01:36:57   usually that's when I will write. Or you know, like I'll do other things. I won't program

01:37:03   necessarily or I'll program very little or I'll do some kind of satellite project like

01:37:07   the website. But usually that's when I will write blog posts best is when I'm awake. Then

01:37:13   I want to use my brain but I don't want to do any programming because I would prefer

01:37:17   to just do it on my big, nice home computer.

01:37:20   Yep. See, this is why I refuse to learn how to drink coffee and why I'm kind of glad I

01:37:25   don't have a 90-inch monitor at home.

01:37:27   Goes in your mouth, Casey.

01:37:28   Oh, that's the trick. Damn it. I don't want to get to the point where I can't function

01:37:34   until I've had a cup of coffee or I get a headache or I get cranky or I just don't think

01:37:40   that things feel right. I don't want that. So I'm glad that I don't like coffee. And

01:37:46   And additionally, I'm glad that I'm used to a 15 inch laptop.

01:37:49   I mean, I don't know.

01:37:51   Right.

01:37:52   You've just broken that analogy that the coffee thing addiction to substances.

01:37:56   I can see something, but I believe there is no physical addiction component to large screens.

01:38:02   I'm pretty sure that it's not.

01:38:04   It's just merely a preference and a convenience.

01:38:08   It's like, you know, like if I get too used to not being half immersed in water all day,

01:38:13   I'll want to be dry every time I go to sleep.

01:38:15   So that's why I sleep outside on the lawn.

01:38:17   It's like, come on, what are you doing?

01:38:20   My point is, I don't feel, I feel only ever so slightly handcuffed by not having a second

01:38:27   monitor when I'm developing.

01:38:29   Whereas you feel completely neutered if you don't have a 25+ inch display as you're developing.

01:38:36   It's really convenient.

01:38:38   It's like, you know, it's convenient to have a room that fits your bed with more than 6

01:38:42   inches around all sides of the walls because then you can walk around the bed to get on

01:38:45   to it. Yeah, you know, like, I don't want to get used to that. I want to make sure my bedroom,

01:38:50   it just has one foot alleys around the bed and I'll shimmy through it because if I get used to

01:38:55   a bigger room, then when I go someplace else, I won't be used to it. Like, I think your analogy

01:38:59   is breaking down there. Anyway, you should be leaning on the fact that I don't want to get,

01:39:03   I don't want to be tethered to a desk. I want to do my computing, like you said,

01:39:07   sitting next to Aaron on the couch or whatever. Those are the advantages you should be playing

01:39:10   up with laptops, not saying that really you want to force yourself to use a 15 inch monitor,

01:39:15   even though it's less convenient. So I think you're barking up the wrong tree with me,

01:39:18   explaining why you like laptops. I think there are reasons, but these are not them.

01:39:21   Fair enough, fair enough. Speaking of, Casey, do you have, have you

01:39:25   thought any more about your computer decision that we talked about last week? Have you thought

01:39:29   any more about that since then? Well, to be fair, that was all of three days

01:39:33   ago as we record this. Preserve the illusion. It was last week. Go

01:39:37   ahead. Oh, right, right, right, right. It was easily

01:39:38   a week ago, and I've thought long and hard. No, not really. I don't know. I've, the problem

01:39:44   I've come to is I think all three potential machines, a Mac mini, a 5K, and a MacBook

01:39:51   Pro, all three of them—

01:39:52   And a Mac Pro.

01:39:53   No.

01:39:54   All three of them, not four of them, all three of them have definite advantages.

01:40:00   They really honestly do.

01:40:02   And I can't figure out which criterion I think is the most important.

01:40:08   Is it having something that can move?

01:40:11   Is it having something beautiful to look at?

01:40:13   Is it having something that I can barely see that's stuffed in the corner that I only really

01:40:17   use remotely or very rarely, you know, physically?

01:40:22   And I just, I can't figure out which one I want.

01:40:25   And I think a couple people have said this on Twitter via feedback, but I think really

01:40:30   what I'm going to do is, which is what I had planned last week, is I'm just going to sit

01:40:34   around and see what comes in the fall with regard to MacBook Pro updates and potentially

01:40:40   any other kind of update.

01:40:42   And just see if that sways me one way.

01:40:46   Let's say for the sake of discussion that I decided I really wanted a 12-inch Retina

01:40:51   Mac and the MacBook One wasn't out yet.

01:40:55   Well, then fast forward to the MacBook One and all my problems are solved.

01:40:59   Maybe there'll be some other thing, some feature that I'll really, really love in the new MacBook

01:41:04   Pro or maybe even a new Mac Mini or the new 5K iMac.

01:41:08   And I'll say, "You know what?

01:41:09   Darn it.

01:41:10   That's it.

01:41:11   But sitting here now, I just, I really don't know.

01:41:14   - Well, first of all, as I said,

01:41:16   like, suppose a new Mac Mini comes.

01:41:19   It'll still suck.

01:41:20   Like, it'll still be a bad deal.

01:41:22   It still won't-- - It'll still be $1,000.

01:41:23   - It'll still be at least $1,000 for a good spec.

01:41:26   It'll still not have very good options.

01:41:29   You know, like, if you look at the ones that we have today,

01:41:33   it's, you know, you got, you max out at two cores.

01:41:38   You can barely get an i7.

01:41:40   max out at one terabyte built in,

01:41:42   only then if you do the fusion.

01:41:44   Like the options, you can't even spec out higher

01:41:47   if you wanted to, unless you get into the iFixit territory

01:41:50   of opening it up and putting your own crap in there,

01:41:52   and even that's becoming harder and harder.

01:41:54   It's, ugh, the Mac Mini is so, and I say this,

01:41:57   having one here and being very happy with it,

01:41:59   but for your purposes, I think, again,

01:42:02   only if it's gonna be used as a server only,

01:42:05   does that make sense?

01:42:06   I think, thinking about it more, as I did the edit,

01:42:10   I was thinking about it more.

01:42:12   I think what you should probably do is get a 15-inch random Apple Pro again.

01:42:19   That's the most likely outcome.

01:42:21   Because the big thing is the way you work right now, if you work the way I work, where

01:42:25   you always work in the same place in the house, where you don't take a laptop on the couch

01:42:30   and do real work, if you're always working in your office upstairs, then get a 5K.

01:42:35   Fine.

01:42:36   Done.

01:42:37   Because that isn't how you live,

01:42:39   and you made a good point about wanting to be with Aaron

01:42:41   at night while you're working, that makes a lot of sense,

01:42:44   and that's something that your home office can't offer you.

01:42:46   So if that's the way you work at home, or compute at home,

01:42:51   then I think a 15 inches is probably the best option

01:42:54   for that because for anyone else, like for other people,

01:42:59   for people who don't program for a living,

01:43:01   or for people who have lower needs,

01:43:03   that'd probably be too big.

01:43:05   then in that case I would say get the 13 inch

01:43:08   Retina MacBook Pro because for most people

01:43:10   that is like the nice middle of the road

01:43:12   cover everything kind of computer.

01:43:14   For you I'd say your needs are higher, go for the 15.

01:43:18   And I think the 15 inch MacBook Pro or the 13 inch,

01:43:22   but in general like the MacBook Pro/Macbook Air range

01:43:27   is the default option for if you don't know

01:43:31   what your needs will be, just get one of those.

01:43:34   And in your case, you don't know what your needs would be.

01:43:38   If you knew what your needs would be

01:43:39   and your needs matched my needs,

01:43:40   again, get the 5K, done.

01:43:42   But because that's a big unknown for you still,

01:43:44   and even if it was firmly nailed down,

01:43:48   it probably wouldn't line up much with my needs

01:43:50   and with the way I use mine or the way Jon uses his.

01:43:53   So because you don't work the way we do

01:43:57   and you don't know how you're gonna be working

01:43:59   over the next four years,

01:44:00   I would say just wait for the Skylake updates

01:44:03   and then get the updated 15 inch.

01:44:06   - Yeah, that's the most likely outcome.

01:44:08   The 5K, when we started the conversation last week,

01:44:11   I did not even wanna entertain the 5K as an option.

01:44:14   But the more we talked about it,

01:44:16   the more I thought, you know what?

01:44:18   If I dedicate myself to only being at my desk,

01:44:23   that really does make sense.

01:44:26   And to be, if I'm honest with you guys right now,

01:44:29   my current personal machine,

01:44:31   which admittedly has a platter hard drive,

01:44:33   which obviously changes whether or not it's usable, as compared to my work laptop, which

01:44:38   has an SSD.

01:44:40   But my personal machine today, the Wi-Fi has been off for months, and it's been connected

01:44:46   via Ethernet, because I—and it's a 15-inch MacBook Pro—because I never move it.

01:44:51   Because I always will just grab my work computer, because whether I want to work or play, it

01:44:55   has everything I want on it.

01:44:57   And so, if we can get over the separation of church and state, if you will, I'm going

01:45:03   to have this laptop, my work laptop, pretty much regardless. And even if I left this job

01:45:09   and got a different job, or even if I left this job and worked for myself, I would probably

01:45:13   end up getting a laptop regardless of whatever other computers I have at home. So there is

01:45:21   a compelling argument for the 5K iMac as much as I really don't want to entertain it because

01:45:26   I think it's ridiculous and it's a stupid piece of furniture.

01:45:29   Yeah, you gotta do what I did with my HDTV and cut out a piece of cardboard the size

01:45:32   of the 5K iMac and stick it in where you're gonna put it in your house and then see like

01:45:37   does this block the morning sunlight that I like when I'm eating my breakfast? Does this look ugly?

01:45:43   Is it visible from the street and it looks weird? Like, you know, pieces of furniture that big you

01:45:49   have to figure out if there's a place for them that won't mess with your feng shui or whatever

01:45:54   you pronounce it. Cool. John, when are you departing? Tomorrow? Tomorrow morning. Yep.

01:46:01   You're going to send me all sorts of pictures probably and I'm going to be super jealous

01:46:04   and then I'm going to hate you.

01:46:05   We'll see.

01:46:06   Can you have your family take pictures of you and then send those to us?

01:46:10   Oh God, that'd be the best.

01:46:11   They don't take that.

01:46:12   I'm the only person who takes pictures of anything.

01:46:13   It's so bad that now we go on vacations with the rest of my family, like parents and sister

01:46:18   and brothers.

01:46:19   They just let me take pictures for everybody now.

01:46:21   Which basically means there's a lot of pictures of my kids and a lot of pictures of my wife

01:46:27   and not a lot of pictures of me

01:46:29   and a medium amount of pictures of everybody else.

01:46:31   [BEEP]