132: Digital Hearth


00:00:00   So anyway, so yeah, so I posted my mega review of my beloved Tom Bihn Cadet,

00:00:04   which I've just put in the chat. You may shower me with praise about how marvelous it is.

00:00:10   Is this one of those bags that's just covered in like

00:00:13   various like buckles and straps and nylon things and...

00:00:17   I don't know. There's plenty of pro-level photography. By pro-level photography, I mean...

00:00:22   Hmm. How would Sean Blanc and Marco take pictures of this?

00:00:27   Well, this isn't it because it's just not but how would I take pictures of this when I'm pretending to be Sean Blanc and Marco?

00:00:35   Oh, okay, that'll work. These pictures are actually pretty good there

00:00:37   I mean I can nitpick them if you'd like one of them

00:00:40   I didn't have the the folk or the aperture was all wrong the one where the bag is open the big part of the bag

00:00:45   It's the bits of it are out of focus. I should have the very last one. No, no, no, no

00:00:49   What's wrong with the very last one? No, no

00:00:50   I was I was all the way down some of the bad photos aren't your fault because I was looking at these on my phone

00:00:55   And the like that the fabric pattern does that repeating a pattern thing when it shrunk to small sizes, and it looks crazy

00:01:02   I thought I didn't realize until I looked at it on my Mac here that it actually is a uniform color

00:01:07   And it is not like paisley or plaid

00:01:09   Is it the more hey is that how you pronounce that the more effect like when it scales it down

00:01:15   I cleverly avoided trying to pronounce it waiting for you suckers to fall on that sword

00:01:18   So she wanted to want to do some follow-up. We should probably do some follow-up

00:01:23   We could start with Adam Luther who wrote in to talk about

00:01:27   802.11ac. John, would you like to correct the error in your ways?

00:01:32   Last episode I mentioned that I didn't need to have 802.11ac in my house because I don't have any 802.11ac devices

00:01:39   But Adam Luther was the first person to point out that that's not true. My iPhone 6 does 802.11ac

00:01:44   So there you go. It was with me all along. Other than that though

00:01:50   I think I don't have any because I don't think the 5s had it, right?

00:01:52   - Right.

00:01:53   - No, I think the iPhone 6 was the first one.

00:01:55   Well also, how useful is that?

00:01:58   Because typically transferring large files to the iPhone

00:02:02   is limited by a lot of factors, including wireless,

00:02:05   but also including the write speed of the flash.

00:02:07   Can it really write any faster than 802.11n speeds,

00:02:11   or is it just more like,

00:02:13   well if you have crappy range to the base station,

00:02:17   or if you have a crappy signal,

00:02:18   then you'll get a little bit faster on AC

00:02:20   than you would under end.

00:02:22   - Yeah, I don't even know if that's true.

00:02:24   Speaking of, I guess we could put this in the section

00:02:27   of the follow-up of my Wi-Fi base station story.

00:02:31   The Wi-Fi base stations have started arriving.

00:02:33   I say multiple because Marco,

00:02:35   despite saying that he was going to get back to me

00:02:37   on which exact base station he had,

00:02:39   instead of getting back to me, he just sent what he had.

00:02:41   - Yep, you'd say no.

00:02:43   I wanted to get rid of it.

00:02:44   - Right, and so it arrived.

00:02:46   So I've got that stupid tall tower thing.

00:02:50   That's Apple's current thing, right?

00:02:51   like yours is the current generation.

00:02:53   - Did you enjoy the Nexus 7 as well or whatever that is?

00:02:56   - God, it took so long to charge.

00:02:57   The only charger we have that has that plug in it

00:02:59   was like the Kindle charger

00:03:01   and it must be not like not high voltage enough.

00:03:03   So I left it plugged in for like a day and a half

00:03:04   till it finally started up.

00:03:06   I tried, this is the Nexus 7.

00:03:07   I tried it out.

00:03:08   I was using the YouTube app.

00:03:09   Like maybe I can just use it to watch YouTube videos.

00:03:11   It's just another little thing to toss around the house.

00:03:13   But the YouTube app was like,

00:03:14   there's an updated version of this app available.

00:03:16   And it was weird to be told that like inside the YouTube app

00:03:19   in the, I guess, the little web page it was rendering

00:03:22   for the video, so I was like, all right,

00:03:24   I'll tap the thing that it wants me to go to,

00:03:26   and it took me to the Google Play store or whatever it is,

00:03:29   and then it says, this version of the YouTube app

00:03:30   is not compatible with your device,

00:03:31   and I said, well, nevermind.

00:03:33   So it was kind of disappointing.

00:03:35   I got an email with it, you forgot to delete

00:03:37   all your accounts, and I tried to delete them

00:03:39   by swiping sideways on them, and all my iOS gestures

00:03:41   are not working, you know, so I don't know how to use Android

00:03:45   but it's not bad for something to just

00:03:47   Maybe check your email.

00:03:48   I think I like the iOS Gmail app better

00:03:50   than the Android one, which surprised me.

00:03:52   Maybe I just need to get used to it,

00:03:53   or this could be an ancient version.

00:03:54   But it plays YouTube videos,

00:03:56   so it will probably find some home in our house,

00:03:59   give them to some child to watch YouTube on.

00:04:01   I don't think that one's 802.11ac either.

00:04:03   - Hey, can you answer some of my support email

00:04:05   while you're in there?

00:04:06   - Yeah. - Wow.

00:04:07   - And of course, a bunch of other people

00:04:09   who saw my tweets are shipping me their old flat,

00:04:13   like the flat airport extreme, the ones that I like.

00:04:17   One of those arrived and I hooked it up and used it.

00:04:20   And I actually had to call Verizon to get the,

00:04:22   to release the IP cause I didn't feel like waiting

00:04:24   a long time.

00:04:25   I just couldn't like,

00:04:26   I used to be able to with the Verizon one,

00:04:27   get it to release before I disconnected.

00:04:30   And this time nothing I did would get it to release.

00:04:32   So I actually had to call them and it was pretty painless.

00:04:34   I didn't, I talked to one person.

00:04:36   They knew what I was talking about.

00:04:37   - Told you so.

00:04:38   - Knew what I was talking about immediately

00:04:40   and they just did it.

00:04:41   And that was fine.

00:04:42   I mean, it wasn't, you know, wasn't that painless.

00:04:43   I had to still wait for the on hold time of like

00:04:46   five minutes or whatever and then... anyway. So the flat one, this is the model 1408 I

00:04:55   believe, A1408. Works better than my other one, the signal travels farther. I can, you

00:05:01   know, because there's some rooms in our house that we just couldn't get the signal before

00:05:03   and now we can. So that was exciting.

00:05:06   Well, because that one had, I think it had two revisions and they looked the same identically

00:05:10   on the outside but the newer one, there were some tests maybe on an OnTech a long time

00:05:15   ago. And that's why I had initially bought that one, because they had shown that the

00:05:19   range was dramatically improved in the later version of it.

00:05:22   Yeah, mine was really, really old. And in general, Apple's things are not known for

00:05:27   having good range. And it was a big deal when Apple started improving it, because finally

00:05:30   the range was not horrendous. It's merely middle of the pack. The Mac-oriented websites

00:05:37   would review it in comparison to the old AirPorts. And compared to the old AirPorts, it was a

00:05:41   huge improvement but compared to contemporary even compared to just the

00:05:45   Verizon router with a little you know that what seven-year-old router that

00:05:49   they gave me that one had better range than any of the airports anyway the new

00:05:52   flat airport work great then eventually Marcos arrived I remember Marcos the

00:05:56   reason I didn't want it well two reasons one it's like that big vertical tower

00:06:00   thingy because it's the same case that they use to put the hard drive in for

00:06:03   the time capsule only the the plain old router one doesn't have a hard drive in

00:06:09   it but it's got the same case with the place where the hard drive would be

00:06:11   with just nothing in it, which is just silly.

00:06:13   I mean, it's economies of scale,

00:06:14   so they don't have to have two different devices

00:06:17   to manufacture, but anyway.

00:06:19   And it's really tall, and the place I have mine is,

00:06:22   you know, I was envisioning it being kind of like

00:06:25   the flat one but gone up vertically.

00:06:26   It's actually smaller than that.

00:06:28   The footprint, so the footprint is smaller,

00:06:29   but it's taller vertically.

00:06:30   And the second thing is, of course, that this thing

00:06:32   has a fan, and that offends me, you know.

00:06:35   I don't wanna have fans.

00:06:37   I don't like the idea that it needs a fan,

00:06:39   because it means that it gets so hot

00:06:40   that passive cooling isn't enough, that it needs to have active cooling in it.

00:06:43   Of course, the design of the thing doesn't have any holes on the top of the case, so

00:06:46   if they had just made it a chimney case, then passive cooling would have been fine, nevermind

00:06:50   all the empty space in there where the hard drive was supposed to be.

00:06:53   And then there's a question, do they even need the fan?

00:06:54   Is the fan only there for the hard drive in a time capsule version, and there's no point

00:06:58   in it to the other one?

00:06:59   Could you stop the fan with the thing overheat?

00:07:01   But of course, the main thing is I don't want anything that makes noise, anything else that

00:07:04   makes noise around here, especially since when I'm playing Destiny, it's within non-

00:07:10   Outstretched arm's reach it's like right next to the monitor that I play destiny on so it was gonna make any noise

00:07:15   I was gonna hear it well

00:07:17   Let me tell you the fan in this thing totally passes my 40 year old years test of silent wow

00:07:23   I am surprised you could a/b test this thing behind a screen is it turned on is it not I could not tell you I

00:07:28   Could absolutely not tell you well now

00:07:30   Maybe if you were a younger person and you had better hearing you could tell but like no one was home in my house

00:07:35   No cars on the road complete silence

00:07:38   I put it on, moved like, you know, an arm's length away from it. I can't tell that it's on.

00:07:42   Put it right up to your ear. Yeah, you can hear it. It does make noise. Like there is noise there,

00:07:46   but from from arm's distance, I am now old enough that I can't hear it. So getting old does have some benefits.

00:07:52   Your hearing slowly starts to go.

00:07:54   Nice.

00:07:55   And so I was testing, I'm testing the signal strength between like the flat one and the tall one, and

00:07:59   like AC and not AC and separate 5 gigahertz network and non-5 gigahertz network.

00:08:05   And it's kind of a wash like it's hard to without real devices for testing or whatever if you just go up and do like

00:08:11   Speed tests and signal strength tests going by the number of bars

00:08:14   There's too many variables involved here for me to tell I don't know what it is

00:08:17   Is it the neighbors what their Wi-Fi is doing? Is it some neighbor using a microwave oven like who knows?

00:08:21   Both of them have much better signal than the previous one

00:08:25   But I can't definitively say the tall one in my house anyways any better than the flat one

00:08:30   So anyway, I'm going to eventually decide on which one anything they're gonna keep they all work with my printer

00:08:34   They all, you know, imported my router configuration just fine.

00:08:39   Like they're all, they all work and all the ones that I don't use I will just give away

00:08:42   to someone else.

00:08:43   >> You can pack them all in a box with nothing between them and just make a big brick.

00:08:47   >> And send it to Casey.

00:08:48   >> Yep.

00:08:49   >> Yeah, like Apple, even with this tall one, I still don't think Apple is like at the top

00:08:54   of the class in terms of signal strength and distance and stuff.

00:08:58   Every time they do a test of just the entire world of third party routers, there's always

00:09:02   some other model that gets better signal strength and better distance than the Apple ones. But

00:09:06   what the Apple ones have going for them is I can use Apple's apps to manage them, I can

00:09:10   import my old configuration and it works with my printer plugged in via USB.

00:09:14   I would also like to point out in the realm of very, very quiet fan technology, when Tiff

00:09:21   got her 5K iMac last fall, in order to expand the storage, we bought a little Thunderbolt

00:09:28   SSD enclosure. It holds four SSDs and it had this really loud

00:09:32   40 or 60 millimeter fan in it. I went online and did some research. I used to be a quiet PC nerd

00:09:39   I have purchased dynamat before and it was not for my car

00:09:42   anyway, so I did some research on what what what is the quiet fan to buy today and

00:09:47   I discovered Noctua fans. So all I did was I took out the old fan

00:09:53   It was a standard fan standard plug put in one of these Noctua things in there and the sound difference

00:09:58   is incredible. Same airspeed really that I could tell like you know roughly I mean

00:10:02   it is just incredible how quiet fans are today when they're designed to be quiet

00:10:07   and it's kind of sad how many still aren't designed to be quiet like the one

00:10:12   that came in this multi hundred dollar Thunderbolt enclosure for no reason at

00:10:15   all is incredibly loud. Anyway so yeah not too a fan's good stuff. That's another

00:10:21   way speaking of bags and enclosures and I don't know if I ever blogged about this

00:10:26   I probably should but I'm sure I've talked about in the show one of the ways to build loyalty

00:10:31   For any product that you're selling that is a physical good

00:10:35   Over the long term. It's not a good way to like get your company off the ground

00:10:39   Maybe but over the long term is to pick a few essential things about it that you won't compromise on

00:10:44   Mostly having to do with durability. So if you're selling enclosures aside, we're going to use the absolute most expensive fans

00:10:52   we could possibly find and we are just going to either raise our price by the amount that

00:10:57   that hurts us in terms of how much extra that fan costs or eat into our profit margins with

00:11:04   it or like bags.

00:11:05   We are going to find the world's most reliable zippers and buckles and we're going to be

00:11:10   like Volvo like every time one of our bags gets damaged in some way we're going to replace

00:11:15   it for free, we're going to ask them to send us the one that broke and we're going to look

00:11:18   at the failure and try to figure it out and keep improving and improving so that eventually

00:11:21   if your company stays in business, and you know, for a couple years you start getting

00:11:25   a reputation of get blah blah blah enclosures. They're solid, their power supplies never

00:11:30   fail, their fans are silent. Get blah blah blah bags, the seams don't rip, the zippers

00:11:35   don't break, all the buckles work and if they don't they replace them. Like, this is going

00:11:39   to be like, oh you're just telling everybody to be high end. It isn't great to be high

00:11:42   end, everyone needs to be snap on, right? You need to be the world's most expensive

00:11:45   whatever you're going to be. But I don't think that's the case. I think you just have to

00:11:48   to have a reasonable reputation for quality.

00:11:51   I mean, I think this does eventually push you upmarket,

00:11:54   kind of like Weber grills or whatever,

00:11:56   or eventually you're kind of cashing in on your name

00:11:58   and even though your product may be reasonably good,

00:12:01   you just keep charging more and more for it.

00:12:03   You have to try to stay in the middle,

00:12:04   like I would say Craftsman tools,

00:12:07   not the best quality tools in the world,

00:12:09   but they gain their reputation for being,

00:12:13   if you break our tool,

00:12:13   you can bring it in and we'll replace it for free forever

00:12:16   and we'll make it reasonable quality

00:12:18   and I think they have a good reputation among customers.

00:12:21   I'm trying to think of other brands that are like this.

00:12:23   - L.L. Bean is very similar, I'd say.

00:12:25   - Yeah, I mean, again, it starts to push high end,

00:12:27   but I'm trying to think of like, I mean, Apple,

00:12:29   Apple is one example, but like,

00:12:32   they've gone for something else.

00:12:32   They've gone for like aesthetics and that type of quality.

00:12:35   They haven't really gone for durability.

00:12:37   Maybe like, I don't know,

00:12:39   I'm thinking of like that Sony Walkman that was like yellow

00:12:42   with the big rubber gaskets all over.

00:12:43   - Oh, yep, yep, yep.

00:12:44   - Not that Sony ever had their reputation,

00:12:45   but that particular thing had their reputation.

00:12:48   Or I'm thinking more of like power tools

00:12:50   and stuff like that.

00:12:50   But anyway, in the world of computers,

00:12:52   I wish there were more manufacturers who,

00:12:54   more successful manufacturers

00:12:56   who differentiated themselves on durability.

00:13:00   And I guess, I mean, it's been tough in the PC industry

00:13:03   at least where even the phone industry with consolidation,

00:13:05   it's just been a cutthroat business

00:13:07   and just if there were companies

00:13:08   that distinguished themselves in that way,

00:13:09   they eventually got gobbled up

00:13:10   because it wasn't enough to sustain them.

00:13:12   But I'm hoping as the insides of electronic components

00:13:15   become more and more a commodity,

00:13:18   that there will be somewhere room to differentiate

00:13:21   on these axes.

00:13:22   Can you think of a phone with a reputation for durability?

00:13:26   I can't.

00:13:27   - No.

00:13:29   - I mean the Samsung one that's waterproof,

00:13:31   I think is an interesting thing.

00:13:32   Samsung changes what it does every year.

00:13:34   Like, you know, they're just very, they're not,

00:13:36   there's no coherent vision for the reputation

00:13:39   they wanna do, except for the reputation

00:13:41   as we make good phones that you wanna buy,

00:13:43   please give us money.

00:13:44   And Apple is so concentrated on thin and sleek

00:13:47   and beautifully designed, which is fine.

00:13:50   That's the reason we like all their stuff and everything,

00:13:52   but they're not kind of like the ruggedized,

00:13:56   craftsman, L.L. Bean type of aesthetic.

00:13:59   There is no manufacturer that's like that for electronics.

00:14:03   I think there should be,

00:14:04   because we're kind of at that stage now

00:14:05   where it's like maybe some people want that.

00:14:07   I bet there is a manufacturer like that

00:14:09   for camping supplies, for mountaineering equipment,

00:14:13   for car repair tools, I mentioned Snap-on,

00:14:15   they're like, those manufacturers do exist

00:14:18   in the more sort of rugged manly fields,

00:14:19   but I think there's a place for them in electronics,

00:14:22   'cause it's such a quality of life issue.

00:14:23   Like I said, you buy that multi-hundred dollar

00:14:25   Thunderbolt enclosure and they have like a two cent fan

00:14:27   in there or whatever, it's like, please just

00:14:29   spend the extra $15 for the expensive fan

00:14:31   and add it to the price.

00:14:33   If it's a multi-hundred dollar thing, like I'll pay it,

00:14:35   and if you keep doing that consistently, I'll say,

00:14:36   hey, if you wanna buy enclosure,

00:14:38   same thing with power supplies,

00:14:39   if you wanna buy an enclosure, buy this enclosure,

00:14:41   because the stupid power supply brick,

00:14:43   Oh, that's, speaking of power supply, doesn't die.

00:14:45   And speaking of that, my Wi-Fi router,

00:14:47   is just as I was about to open up my Wi-Fi router

00:14:50   with my son, which is a thing that we do

00:14:52   when electronics dies, tear them apart.

00:14:54   I thought, you know, before I crack this thing open,

00:14:58   why don't I try plugging it into one of the power supplies

00:15:00   that came with one of the replacement ones

00:15:02   to see if it was the power supply that died

00:15:04   or the router that died.

00:15:05   It turns out it was the power supply that got fried,

00:15:08   not the router.

00:15:09   - So. - Aw, that's so sad.

00:15:11   My old one, I mean, I didn't test it, test it, but my old one turns on the light, does

00:15:15   it, you know, like, before, the amber light wouldn't come on at all.

00:15:18   Now it starts up, eventually turns green.

00:15:20   So I'm pretty sure it was the power supply.

00:15:21   Which still means I would have been out of router because I was, no, I was going to buy

00:15:24   like a separate power supply for it.

00:15:28   But we took apart the power brick, Apple's power brick, you know what that looks like?

00:15:32   That's kind of like, well, it looks like everything else they make, like a white rounded rectangle

00:15:36   thing.

00:15:37   Boy, those are hard to open.

00:15:39   Like, I didn't look at the iFixit guide, I'm assuming it involved.

00:15:41   heat gun, you don't have to loosen the adhesive, but I don't have a heat gun, all I have is

00:15:45   pliers, screwdrivers, and other blunt instruments and that was difficult to get open. But inside

00:15:52   it looked pretty nice. And that thing lasted at least seven years, probably longer, before

00:16:01   power surge when not connected to a surge suppressor killed it. So Apple usually makes

00:16:06   pretty good power supplies. I've bought external hard drive enclosures that have gone through

00:16:10   multiple of these power brick things. So those are usually the weak link.

00:16:13   Yeah, in fact, like, those power bricks are usually such cheap pieces of crap that I really

00:16:19   have tried to avoid buying peripherals that use them. Like, anything that can be bus-powered,

00:16:25   I will almost always pick that option now, because power supplies, like, either they

00:16:30   die early or they start, like, they start a whine or a buzz, and I've had so many, like,

00:16:36   cheap, crappy power supplies.

00:16:38   - Apple does well here, like remember that article

00:16:40   showing what it looked like inside

00:16:42   Apple's laptop power adapter and then inside like a knockoff

00:16:46   it's supposed to have made to look like.

00:16:47   And the knockoff, they just showed all the components

00:16:49   they were missing and you know, it's just.

00:16:51   - The knockoff basically ran wires from one end to the other.

00:16:54   - And Apple says filled with tons of like tiny surface mount

00:16:56   resistors and trying to, you know,

00:16:58   like Apple does a good job with those things.

00:17:00   They'll, I mean, they're still, you know,

00:17:02   get it, you can healthy profit margins

00:17:04   when you bought them from them,

00:17:05   but that is a wise investment in money.

00:17:07   They look silly on the outside, they're just these white, you know, rounded rectangle things

00:17:12   with plugs and you think they're all the same.

00:17:13   And it could be argued that Apple cheeps out on the wires themselves because they have

00:17:16   to be thin and beautiful and the strain relief isn't there or whatever.

00:17:19   But inside the actual brick parts of the power bricks, for the most part Apple has done a

00:17:24   good job with that over the years.

00:17:25   Well, and to be fair, one of the reasons why the Apple wires tend to die over time, you're

00:17:31   right, part of it is they need more strain relief really and strain relief is ugly so

00:17:35   they don't do it.

00:17:36   also part of it is they go on their environmental checklist and they want to be like everything

00:17:39   free and some of those things they've checked off the environmental checklist over the years

00:17:43   are things that make really good long-lasting power cords but also might cause cancer or

00:17:46   something so you know like they have actually had to change the materials over time to be

00:17:52   things that are that maybe are more brittle like some of the soft plastics and rubbers

00:17:56   are like more brittle now and they're a little stiffer and they crack and yeah.

00:18:00   Yeah they change the material like I mean you've got a collection of Apple hardware

00:18:04   particularly the cords, power cords, USB cables,

00:18:08   lightning cables, 30 pin connector cables.

00:18:10   If you have been buying Apple devices for a long time

00:18:12   and you actually save this stuff like I do,

00:18:14   there's two aspects of it.

00:18:16   One, obviously some of them might age differently

00:18:19   because something that is five, 10 years old,

00:18:23   it's like, was it always like this

00:18:25   or did it just get like this

00:18:26   because it kind of dried out over time

00:18:27   so you can't really tell.

00:18:28   But two, even when relatively new things,

00:18:30   the difference in sort of the bendability,

00:18:33   the surface texture, if it holds a kink,

00:18:36   like they're always wrapped up in a tight little bundle

00:18:38   in the package, when you unwrap it,

00:18:39   how long does it take to get unkinked?

00:18:41   I have some cables that are like a year old

00:18:43   that are still kinked,

00:18:44   other ones curled right out into a smooth thing.

00:18:46   Some of them feel smooth,

00:18:48   some of them feel rough on the outside,

00:18:49   some of them are stiff, some of them are floppy,

00:18:51   they're different thicknesses.

00:18:52   I always wonder, is like,

00:18:54   I guess it's probably intentional,

00:18:55   but it's like you said, Margo,

00:18:56   which part of this is we were moving home from materials

00:18:59   and this is the best we could do,

00:19:00   and then next year we figured out

00:19:01   we can do even better than that,

00:19:03   still without the harmful materials, which ones had the harmful materials in it, and

00:19:06   so they were like nice, as nice as they could make them without the constraints of environmental

00:19:10   correctness and everything.

00:19:12   So large variety in cables from Apple.

00:19:16   I'm assuming the insides are similar.

00:19:18   Like I was worried when they got rid of the, whatever, the lead in the solder or whatever,

00:19:22   because the alternatives are known to not be as strong, but so far so good on that front,

00:19:28   I guess.

00:19:29   Our first sponsor this week is Fracture.

00:19:31   to fractureme.com and use code ATP15 for 15% off your first order.

00:19:39   Fracture is vivid color prints of your photos printed directly on glass.

00:19:45   And this is really cool.

00:19:46   So I have a bunch of these hanging around our house here.

00:19:49   Fracture prints, so you know, they know, we take so many photos these days.

00:19:53   And your photos usually end up trapped somewhere down, you know, an Instagram or Facebook feed

00:19:57   somewhere and you know, they're on the feed for two seconds and then they scroll past

00:20:01   and then they're gone. And yeah, you still have them, but you never actually really look

00:20:05   at them. You never really enjoy them. You never really show anyone else those pictures.

00:20:08   Once they're off the stream, they're gone. And so Fracture wants people to actually take

00:20:13   some photos, take some special photos, or some non-special ones, it doesn't matter,

00:20:16   take some photos and get them printed and hang them up somewhere in your house. Or,

00:20:20   send them to loved ones as gifts. And it is so easy to do. Their website is great. You

00:20:24   know, you upload the photos, they preview everything, you get the scale or whatever,

00:20:28   crop, whatever, so easy to do.

00:20:30   And you get these beautiful prints.

00:20:32   Now, this is really vivid color photo prints

00:20:35   printed directly on glass.

00:20:37   So here's how this works.

00:20:38   There's a very, very thin piece of glass on the front.

00:20:41   The photo's printed on the backside of it,

00:20:43   facing through, facing the front.

00:20:45   So it can't scratch off.

00:20:47   And the front is nice and glossy glass.

00:20:49   So it looks great, and it's so thin

00:20:51   that it looks like the photo is printed on the top surface,

00:20:55   you know, from any distance.

00:20:56   it looks like the photo is printed on the top. And because it's so thin, it also is

00:21:01   extremely lightweight. You don't have to worry about like some giant heavy pane of glass

00:21:05   ripping the nail out of your wall and crashing down on the floor. These things are very lightweight

00:21:08   for their size. And so behind the glass is a thin piece of like foam board and that has

00:21:14   like little holes in it so then you can hook picture hanging screws in that. They even

00:21:18   give you one in the box if you need it or you can go to the hardware store and get you

00:21:21   know, ten for a buck or whatever. But you know, they, these things are nice solid lightweight

00:21:26   pictures that hang on your wall and look great. Every time somebody's in my office and they

00:21:31   see my Fracture prints, they always compliment them and they always ask about them. These

00:21:35   make great gifts, Fracture, vivid color prints directly on glass. Use code ATP15 at FractureMe.com.

00:21:42   Code ATP15 for 15% off your first Fracture order. Price to start at just 15 bucks for

00:21:49   the small ones. They're like a 5x5 square. It's about the size of a little smaller than

00:21:54   a CD case, if anyone even knows what those are anymore. Do you guys remember the trick

00:21:58   to open jewel cases properly? You ever learn that?

00:22:01   Is there a trick? Yeah, the three finger thing.

00:22:03   What? You just open them? Yeah.

00:22:05   No, it's on the right edge. So when you open a CD case, does it like snap open after some

00:22:12   force? Are you pulling from the middle? I don't have this problem. I just open them.

00:22:16   They're a hinge in the back. They open like books, right?

00:22:19   No, they snap open if you don't do it right.

00:22:22   So the way to do it right is, so take your left hand,

00:22:26   take your middle finger straight up, thumb straight down,

00:22:28   index finger kind of out, so as if you're making

00:22:30   like a three, like a peace sign with your thumb out, okay?

00:22:33   Take your middle finger up top, your thumb,

00:22:35   you pull up the corners of the case lid from that

00:22:39   as you're pushing down on the case with your index finger.

00:22:43   So you pull up the top and bottom

00:22:44   while you're pushing down the center of the right edge,

00:22:47   and then it swings right open.

00:22:48   actually can find a jewel case to try this on. It will change your life if you still

00:22:52   ever open jewel cases, but you probably don't anymore.

00:22:55   This is unbelievably useful information for 15 year ago Casey.

00:23:01   How did you not know this?

00:23:02   No, I did know this, and I think that is how I opened a jewel case, but I didn't realize

00:23:06   there was a right and wrong way. To John's point, I just kind of opened it.

00:23:09   I've got a jewel case with me right here, and either, like, I don't see a wrong way

00:23:13   to open it. I don't see what, like, I'm trying to open it in all sorts of wrong ways, like,

00:23:18   Like if I just take my finger and flick it on the set,

00:23:20   it opens every time.

00:23:21   Like it's not--

00:23:22   - What most people will do is they will just take one finger

00:23:25   like the index finger and try to pull up the center

00:23:27   of the right edge.

00:23:28   And then it kind of like snaps open.

00:23:30   - I've never seen that technique.

00:23:32   I always have fingers on the top edge

00:23:34   and fingers on the bottom edge.

00:23:35   And the other hand crosswise on it.

00:23:37   Pressing in the middle thing does disengage the little hooks

00:23:39   but even if you don't press in the middle,

00:23:40   if you just pull up with your fingers that way,

00:23:42   it comes off pretty much as easily.

00:23:43   Like they're not stiff.

00:23:47   Anyway, thanks a lot to Fracture for sponsoring our show once again.

00:23:51   So we are in August and we are in the slump, the doldrums of August, and we have little

00:23:58   to nothing to talk about.

00:24:00   So with that in mind, we're going to try to entice you to listen to the rest of this episode

00:24:06   by discussing a couple of different things.

00:24:09   And we thought we would start by me having an existential crisis about what kind of computer

00:24:15   I want to replace my personal 15-inch high-res anti-glare MacBook Pro.

00:24:20   And if you recall, I've just gotten a 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro for work, but I've been

00:24:27   telling myself that I'm waiting for the Skylake 15-inch refresh to get a new personal machine.

00:24:36   But I was thinking about it recently, and I started to wonder why.

00:24:42   What I use my personal computer for, my personal Mac, is almost nothing.

00:24:46   It is unbelievably slow as compared to both the new work computer and even the work computer

00:24:52   that the new one replaced, because my personal one is still using a platter hard drive, which

00:24:58   is unusable.

00:25:00   I don't know how anyone does this anymore.

00:25:01   It's unusable.

00:25:03   So the reason I have both a work and a personal machine is because I like to tell myself that

00:25:08   I'm keeping my personal files on my personal machine and my work files on my work machine,

00:25:14   and they will never mix or anything like that.

00:25:17   Do you want to guess how often I really do a good job of keeping my personal files off

00:25:23   my work computer?

00:25:25   Not at all.

00:25:26   Everything in my Dropbox was on there.

00:25:28   1Password is on there.

00:25:29   A lot of my pictures are on there.

00:25:31   All of my music is on there.

00:25:33   Everything is intertwined.

00:25:34   So, I'm wondering if there's, what is the point in insisting on having a 15-inch laptop

00:25:41   for my personal machine, when really the only thing this machine consistently gets used

00:25:46   for is as a Plex server?

00:25:48   Which started me down the line of, do I even really need a laptop, and if not, what do

00:25:54   I get?

00:25:55   I don't think I want a Retina iMac, for reasons I can't put my finger on, but I just don't

00:26:00   think I want that.

00:26:01   They still sell the non-Retina one.

00:26:03   Well, okay, sure, but if I was going to get an iMac—I don't want an iMac is what I should have said—

00:26:07   Do I want a Mac Mini?

00:26:10   Maybe you want a Mac Pro?

00:26:12   Oh, God, that would be a

00:26:14   hysterical turn of events, but no, I do not want a Mac Pro.

00:26:17   But I guess what I'm driving at is, like, what is the purpose in maintaining a personal machine that is portable,

00:26:23   that I could take places when I'm never ever ever going to take that machine places? Even if I had a

00:26:30   unbelievably awesome personal machine, in all likelihood, I'd probably take the work

00:26:34   machine, so on the slim chance that I have to do work when I'm on this phantom, you know,

00:26:38   theoretical vacation, I could do so. So why do I need a 15-inch laptop when really I could

00:26:45   probably save $2,000 and just get a Mac Mini?

00:26:49   Well, first of all, you couldn't, because it is impossible to get a nicely configured

00:26:53   Mac Mini for much under a thousand bucks.

00:26:56   I mean, we're still looking at the work computer

00:26:58   that work gave me was something like $3,100.

00:27:02   - Right, well, yeah, but the difference

00:27:03   between the base model, which is 2,000,

00:27:07   and that is, I wouldn't say it's 50% better.

00:27:10   Anyway, it doesn't matter.

00:27:12   So, number one, you answered this already.

00:27:15   Number one is, are you sure you don't need

00:27:19   for it to be portable?

00:27:20   And you said, you just bring the work laptop,

00:27:23   and that makes a lot of sense.

00:27:24   What I recommend, if you can, you know,

00:27:27   if this works for you, I recommend whatever you get,

00:27:31   consider that you will leave, if your job allows this,

00:27:35   leave your work computer at work.

00:27:37   If you bring your work computer at home,

00:27:39   then obviously you're blurring a line between home and work,

00:27:42   and that's, as you said, that's something that's not ideal,

00:27:45   ideologically, if that's not a redundant phrase.

00:27:49   And obviously, whether your job expects you

00:27:54   to be working on the side is that's up to you and your job.

00:27:56   But if you can leave your work computer at work

00:27:59   most of the time, that's worth considering

00:28:02   'cause that gives you really good isolation then.

00:28:04   Then you can't bring your work home with you.

00:28:06   You can leave it connected to the monitor and stuff at work

00:28:08   and have all your windows stay in place, John.

00:28:10   And it's really nice to have that separation, honestly,

00:28:14   unless you have to be frequently doing work at home.

00:28:16   Then it's different.

00:28:17   But if that's not a frequent occurrence,

00:28:19   if you can usually do work at work only,

00:28:22   then that can be really nice.

00:28:24   - Yeah, I don't think I could get away with it.

00:28:26   I understand and completely agree

00:28:28   with everything you just said,

00:28:29   but I work from home often enough,

00:28:32   even like in the evenings or occasionally on the weekends

00:28:36   or just to quickly, well, I guess I was going to say

00:28:39   quickly fire off an email,

00:28:41   but I could do that on any computer.

00:28:42   That doesn't require a full-bore work machine.

00:28:45   - Does the work that you occasionally have to do at home

00:28:47   require that it be done on your work computer

00:28:50   Or can you log into the stuff you need to log into

00:28:52   on any computer?

00:28:53   - I was going to say I suppose I could like,

00:28:57   what was almost said RDP

00:29:00   because I'm showing my Windows colors now.

00:29:01   - Nice.

00:29:02   - But I could yell VNC into a machine at work

00:29:06   if I can punch a hole through the firewall.

00:29:09   I suppose I could put the work VPN on my home machine.

00:29:12   - This sounds like too much work.

00:29:13   - Exactly.

00:29:14   - Supposed to be saying ARD

00:29:15   if you wanna get your Mac grid up.

00:29:17   - Whatever, Apple remote desktop, right.

00:29:19   Anyway, the point is, I probably could do that, but in all likelihood, if I have a work

00:29:24   laptop, I would almost certainly take it home, in no small part because in this theoretical,

00:29:31   I'm not going to have a laptop of my own.

00:29:36   And I'm going to have either an iMac or a Mac Mini, and so I'm going to want a laptop

00:29:41   to use in the house, even for personal things.

00:29:44   And so I would want to have the work computer at home anyway.

00:29:49   Okay, so then that's the other question. So we know Aaron has a MacBook Air that is usually

00:29:53   dry. Now, are there times when you take your work computer out of your home office and

00:30:01   work around the house with it?

00:30:02   Yes, yes there are.

00:30:04   That happens frequently?

00:30:05   Eh, well, for example, the blog post that we talked about earlier that may or may not

00:30:09   have made it into the show, that was done sitting on the couch next to Aaron on my work

00:30:14   laptop.

00:30:16   As long as you're comfortable continuing to have

00:30:19   the work laptop have this dual role

00:30:21   of being the work computer and also your half/even

00:30:26   maybe primary home computer,

00:30:28   if that's something you wanna continue,

00:30:31   then sure, get a Mac Mini for your home server.

00:30:35   If you actually, and consider running it headless,

00:30:39   'cause at that point, it's like,

00:30:40   well, what are you really even doing with the Mac Mini?

00:30:42   Like, I have a Mac Mini here running headless.

00:30:44   It's doing our livestream.

00:30:45   It serves my iSCSI giant share from the NAS and then it runs backblaze to back it up over

00:30:50   iSCSI.

00:30:51   It runs a couple other like, you know, task type things.

00:30:56   Like I have that, and it runs Plex, which I never use because I hate it because it turns

00:30:59   out you're the only person in the world who likes Plex.

00:31:02   Please email Casey.

00:31:03   Oh, you are going to get so much email, my friend.

00:31:06   The truth is that I'm the only person in the world who doesn't like it.

00:31:07   I think that's more accurate.

00:31:08   I think that is more accurate.

00:31:09   That's more accurate.

00:31:11   But anyway, the Mac Mini is fine for that if you plan to run it headless, but it is

00:31:14   is not a good deal. Performance wise, a 15 inch comes very, very close to the performance

00:31:20   of most of the iMacs and really the whole lineup. Like a 15 inch, even the base model

00:31:28   performs extremely well relative to the rest of the lineup. The Mac Mini is kind of the

00:31:33   opposite. The Mac Mini, you pay, what is relatively speaking, you pay a lot and you kind of get

00:31:38   a little for it. It's also very rarely updated. Obviously the current model is very old. Even

00:31:43   Even when it's updated, it still doesn't get to be a great deal. It just gets to be a less

00:31:47   bad deal for a couple of months. But it is never a good deal. You look at what it actually

00:31:52   costs to spec one out to be reasonable. For instance, I don't think you want a platter

00:31:58   hard drive in that either. Because this is not a fast computer. What decade is this?

00:32:04   You want this to be running 24/7? I would put an SSD in it. I did. I put the, I think

00:32:09   It's 256.

00:32:11   I didn't go crazy with it,

00:32:12   'cause I didn't need that much space on it.

00:32:13   But your mileage will vary with that.

00:32:15   You have the NAS for your bulk storage anyway,

00:32:18   so I don't know how Plex deals with that,

00:32:20   but probably in a way that I hate.

00:32:22   But if you want to actually do work

00:32:25   on this new computer at home,

00:32:27   and really make it your home computer,

00:32:30   I would say either get an iMac,

00:32:32   or get another 15 inch the way you've been doing it.

00:32:34   - Yeah, and that's the thing is that

00:32:36   I just, I don't know what it is.

00:32:39   It's some sort of mental hurdle that I can't get over, but I think to myself, if I'm going

00:32:45   to buy like a, if I'm going to buy an iMac, I would always choose a 15-inch Retina MacBook

00:32:53   Pro over the iMac.

00:32:54   And I wish I could explain why, but it's just, the iMac for me seems so silly.

00:33:00   It's so big and unwieldy.

00:33:02   Maybe that's why I'm landing on the Mac Mini is because it's not big.

00:33:04   It's not unwieldy.

00:33:06   I could run it headless if I so desired.

00:33:10   And I guess if I'm going to get something that's such a physically large machine, I'm

00:33:16   going to want it to be something I could take around the house.

00:33:20   And you can't take an iMac around the house.

00:33:21   I'm sure everyone has had that story of seeing—yeah, everyone has seen that guy at Starbucks.

00:33:27   But for the purposes of this conversation, you cannot move it around the house.

00:33:31   And so that—I guess what we're saying then, and I'd like to hear Jon's two cents

00:33:35   in a moment, but I guess what we're saying is,

00:33:37   probably go ahead and get the 15 inch MacBook Pro,

00:33:40   even if all it does is sit there and run Plex nonstop,

00:33:45   and do almost nothing else.

00:33:47   - Or, if that really is the main reason you need it,

00:33:51   just get a Mac Mini, because a laptop is not always on.

00:33:54   It is really, really nice having an always on Mac server

00:33:57   for roles like that.

00:33:58   If you're really gonna keep your main personal use

00:34:01   on your work computer, if you're not gonna be like,

00:34:04   using this computer much at home,

00:34:06   then get a cheap Mac Mini and be done with it.

00:34:09   But you have to decide, is that really what this is for?

00:34:11   Because a Mac Mini is a better home Plex server

00:34:15   than a 15-inch MacBook Pro.

00:34:17   I guess maybe transcoding,

00:34:18   if it's doing heavy transcoding, it wouldn't be.

00:34:20   But although it would do that in silence,

00:34:22   and it has hardware ethernet port, so keep that in mind.

00:34:26   But, and you can even put it next to your TV and use HDMI

00:34:29   and use a bunch of crazy stuff on there if you want.

00:34:32   I wouldn't, but you can.

00:34:33   But anyway, Mac Minis are great for home servers

00:34:38   if what you really want is a home server.

00:34:40   They're not good deals.

00:34:42   You can never find good deals on them used either

00:34:44   because everybody wants a cheap Mac Mini,

00:34:47   so the used pricing on them is not that much cheaper

00:34:50   than getting them new. (laughs)

00:34:52   So it will never be a good deal.

00:34:54   But for the role of a home server, it is really nice.

00:34:57   And mine, it is as silent as the Mac Pro under load.

00:35:01   It isn't as fast.

00:35:03   It's one of the reasons why it can be.

00:35:05   Mine only has dual cores.

00:35:06   I think they stopped selling the quad core ones.

00:35:08   So these aren't amazingly fast machines,

00:35:11   but they're really small.

00:35:13   You can put them anywhere.

00:35:14   They have, they're all hardware.

00:35:16   It's all hardware, ethernet, hardware,

00:35:18   sound ports, hardware, HDMI, and everything.

00:35:20   You don't have to have a bunch of dongles

00:35:21   or Thunderbolt adapters or anything.

00:35:23   And it'll just sit there in silence and not bother you.

00:35:26   Whereas a laptop, running a laptop headless

00:35:29   or in clamshell mode rather, is not a great idea for long.

00:35:33   I know people do it, I know,

00:35:35   but it's not a great idea for long.

00:35:36   They don't tend to last as long that way

00:35:38   and there's lots of like, they kinda fight you on it.

00:35:40   They don't really want to be run that way

00:35:42   and you have to always kinda like work around,

00:35:43   oh, is the screen actually on under there?

00:35:44   Is the OS trying to fight me and keep the screen on

00:35:46   or did it not see that I put it to sleep?

00:35:48   And it's always kind of a mess

00:35:52   trying to get a 15 inch to be,

00:35:55   to run headless on a regular basis.

00:35:57   and a Mac Mini will always just do that for you.

00:36:00   Like it will serve that role better

00:36:02   if that's what you really want.

00:36:04   - Yeah, and really quickly I should point out,

00:36:06   and the chat room is already giving me grief

00:36:09   about this justifiably, the right answer for a Plex server

00:36:13   is absolutely without a shadow of a doubt

00:36:15   a really cheap PC that's just sitting there

00:36:18   and doing nothing but serving Plex.

00:36:19   - No, then you have to manage a PC.

00:36:21   - Honest to God, that's exactly right.

00:36:23   That is exactly why I do not want that.

00:36:25   I'd have to manage the PC, I'd have to worry about it.

00:36:28   Yes, I know a lot of people, the PC fans are saying, "You have to do all those with a Mac."

00:36:32   Well, you know what, you're right, but I'm used to it.

00:36:35   It's just another one that I have to think about.

00:36:37   Whereas managing a PC, that would be the only PC in the house that's actively being used.

00:36:42   It's making me think about a bunch of things that I really just don't want to have to worry

00:36:46   about.

00:36:47   I'm already worrying about the El Capitan upgrade for my machine, for my work machine,

00:36:54   for Aaron's MacBook Air, it's not gonna hurt me

00:36:57   to worry about it for one more computer.

00:36:59   So I understand that that is unquestionably

00:37:02   the right answer, on paper it is not the right answer for me.

00:37:05   John, how would you handle this?

00:37:07   - Where is your, where are your photos?

00:37:09   Where's your photo library?

00:37:11   - The Canonical photo library is on the 15 inch

00:37:15   personal MacBook Pro, on the spinning platter hard drive

00:37:19   that never turns off.

00:37:22   I don't like laptops.

00:37:24   I think this is, I think one of your things

00:37:27   that you alluded to before is you don't like the idea,

00:37:30   and a lot of people I think who are not,

00:37:32   especially people who aren't tech nerds,

00:37:34   don't like the idea of a large piece of furniture

00:37:37   basically in their house being a computer.

00:37:40   Like I think you like the idea that the laptop,

00:37:42   when you close it, it's basically,

00:37:44   you can't even see it, it's just a little flat thing

00:37:45   on the desk, when it's open it's not that big.

00:37:47   You don't want to dedicate,

00:37:48   like most tech nerds don't mind this.

00:37:51   I mean, just look at Marco's computer room

00:37:53   or even mine for that matter.

00:37:54   You don't want the thing where the dominant piece

00:37:56   of furniture in a room or on a desk or whatever

00:37:59   is computer related.

00:38:00   Like I've got my big tower on the floor,

00:38:02   I've got my monitor, I've got the speakers,

00:38:03   Marco's got monitors and stuff all over the place.

00:38:05   That's what some people like,

00:38:06   but it sounds like you don't want that.

00:38:07   So that's why you're kind of resistant to the idea

00:38:09   of an iMac or something,

00:38:10   'cause it's physically imposing

00:38:12   and that you can't put it away

00:38:13   when you're not using your iMac.

00:38:15   It is still, especially the big Retina one,

00:38:17   still a big 27 inch screen that you just can't get rid of

00:38:20   and it's just blocking your view out the window

00:38:21   and you know, whatever.

00:38:22   But I would think of that for two things.

00:38:25   I think every home, every tech nerd home anyway,

00:38:28   needs to kind of have like a digital hearth,

00:38:30   which is like the biggest, nicest screen

00:38:33   where you can look at photos in movies

00:38:34   and the family could gather around them

00:38:35   if they wanted and look at them.

00:38:37   That doesn't move, that is like sort of the main repository

00:38:42   of the things that you care about in the home.

00:38:44   So it's constantly connected to both network

00:38:45   and local backups.

00:38:47   It's got a really big screen.

00:38:48   It's probably the fastest computer.

00:38:50   And that's where you would do all that.

00:38:53   You'd go there to, I don't know, pay your bills,

00:38:58   sort through your photos, edit your photos,

00:39:01   look at a funny YouTube video with the family or the kids

00:39:03   or whatever, watch a new movie trailer that comes out.

00:39:07   I guess you could do this all in front of your TV.

00:39:08   If Apple got off its butt,

00:39:09   I mean, it's TV products worth a damn.

00:39:10   But anyway.

00:39:11   - I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

00:39:12   - Yeah.

00:39:13   But that's what I'm thinking of for the iMac.

00:39:15   But you're right that it is going to be

00:39:16   large imposing physical presence right and then I think you should have a very

00:39:23   small light laptop like an air or the MacBook one that you use for hey I don't

00:39:27   want to be stuck on my desk I want to be able to run around the house but on

00:39:30   that small light laptop you should not have your family photo collection you

00:39:34   shouldn't have anything you really care about there it should just be like your

00:39:36   Dropbox and your other network connected stuff and if you drop it and it cracks

00:39:39   in half it's not a big deal because the stuff that you care about it's more

00:39:42   stationary and then you should also have a Mac mini or something like that doing

00:39:45   your data serving and a network attack.

00:39:46   And it's like, it starts getting expensive at that point.

00:39:49   So what you're trying to do is like,

00:39:51   I don't wanna have a big giant desktop computer

00:39:53   with a big screen and a small light laptop

00:39:55   and a little server.

00:39:56   You're just trying to find one machine that's gonna do it.

00:39:59   And as far as that's concerned,

00:40:00   if you don't want a big imposing piece of furniture

00:40:02   and the iMac is out,

00:40:03   I would not do any personal stuff on your work computers.

00:40:08   I would resist that urge

00:40:09   because that just gets you into a bad pattern, I think.

00:40:12   I don't like the idea of a family photo library

00:40:14   being on a portable machine because then I'm like when are you gonna remember to

00:40:18   hook it up to your local hard drive to back up probably not as often as you

00:40:21   want and and network backups are kind of trickling and happening over time but if

00:40:25   you're not careful the machine could be asleep for a lot of the time or the lid

00:40:29   closed or some other way where you're just not backing up as much as you

00:40:31   should be and I don't feel comfortable with like your entire family's photos

00:40:35   your main local copy as of like two or three days ago being on this thing that

00:40:41   you could drop accidentally or something.

00:40:43   But it sounds to me like that you basically

00:40:46   kind of made up your mind and that you wanna be able to,

00:40:48   you don't want a big I'm exiting a desk

00:40:50   and you wanna be able to run around the house

00:40:51   for whatever reason with a giant 15 inch laptop

00:40:53   instead of a small sleek light one.

00:40:56   So that's what you gotta get.

00:40:57   It just feels like a terrible compromise to me

00:40:59   because it is a machine that is not really good at anything.

00:41:02   Like you're just wandering around your house with it.

00:41:04   You've already got a portable laptop just like that

00:41:06   to go to and from work.

00:41:07   And this one is just so you can wander

00:41:09   around your house with it.

00:41:09   I just feel like you would separate your concerns better

00:41:13   if you had a big, mostly stationary computer

00:41:16   that looks nicer and performs better,

00:41:18   and then a really small, thin, light one,

00:41:20   then you could take to WLDC with you.

00:41:22   - See, there's no chance that I'm going to rock

00:41:26   a three-computer solution where one is work,

00:41:29   one is an iMac, and one is an Air.

00:41:31   It's just not happening.

00:41:32   - Well, you leave the work when it works, like Marco said.

00:41:33   Like, I'd say no reason to bring that home.

00:41:35   - No, no.

00:41:37   That has nothing to do with moving things.

00:41:39   It's just, that's stupid.

00:41:41   There's no need for that.

00:41:43   I would definitely choose a 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro

00:41:47   over a 27-inch iMac or whatever it is,

00:41:51   and a Air/Macbook One.

00:41:54   That being said, the more we talk about it,

00:41:56   the more I'm starting to come to grips with the idea

00:41:59   that maybe an iMac is really what I'm looking for,

00:42:02   even if I don't want to admit it to myself.

00:42:04   - Well, because here's the thing.

00:42:05   An iMac can serve all the same roles the Mac Mini serves,

00:42:09   'cause it's stationary, it's always connected,

00:42:11   it can be always on, or at least in the Power Nap

00:42:14   kind of weirdo thing, I don't know,

00:42:15   does anybody use that?

00:42:16   It doesn't matter.

00:42:18   Mine's always on, it just has the screen turned off.

00:42:20   So it can serve all those home server roles

00:42:23   and also be your digital heart, as Jon said,

00:42:27   because I love that, that's a great analogy.

00:42:29   Another thing to consider, and this could go

00:42:31   either for or against it, depending on how you look at it,

00:42:33   you have this, you're looking at this computer

00:42:36   to be purchased now, your kid is almost one.

00:42:38   So you will probably have this computer for what,

00:42:40   four years, let's say four years.

00:42:43   You'll probably even have it for longer honestly,

00:42:45   if you're looking at like an Apple desktop

00:42:46   and just knowing that you're not me,

00:42:49   you're probably gonna have it for a while.

00:42:50   So that means that whatever computer that you choose here,

00:42:54   you're probably gonna have from your kid's ages,

00:42:58   you know, one through five or something.

00:43:01   And so you have to be like, when you have a three

00:43:04   to five year old running around your house,

00:43:06   are you really gonna be getting a lot of work done

00:43:08   on a laptop?

00:43:09   - Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

00:43:11   - I doubt that severely.

00:43:13   I mean, I just know, John, you can tell us

00:43:15   'cause you have twice the experience,

00:43:16   but I just know from having my one kid

00:43:18   and him being three right now,

00:43:21   I can never get worked on on a laptop

00:43:23   anywhere outside of my office.

00:43:24   I have tried.

00:43:25   It doesn't happen.

00:43:26   It's like, it's just, that's not,

00:43:28   that is not compatible with the reality

00:43:30   of having kids at home.

00:43:30   That's not a good or bad thing, that's just how it is.

00:43:33   There's nothing you can do to change that.

00:43:35   So consider your next three to five years

00:43:38   of the kind of work you'll be doing in your house

00:43:42   and where in your house you'll be doing it.

00:43:44   What kind of situations.

00:43:45   Maybe you won't want a laptop

00:43:47   because you'll recognize that you can't really use a laptop

00:43:50   with a kid running around and get much done.

00:43:53   Or maybe you'll want a laptop because your home office

00:43:56   that you would have a desktop in is upstairs

00:43:59   near your kid's bedroom

00:44:00   and maybe you won't want to be up there while your kid's asleep and you're trying to get

00:44:03   work done.

00:44:04   Yeah, where you do things is a big factor because if you're kind of, especially if you

00:44:07   have the habits sort of like honed over years of having laptop use, like where do you find

00:44:12   yourself doing your desktop web browsing, if at all?

00:44:14   The answer is sitting in my bed with my laptop on my lap.

00:44:17   Well the iMac's not going to help you there.

00:44:19   Like if you don't have the habits to think about where you use your laptop at home.

00:44:23   Are you sitting on the couch?

00:44:24   Are you sitting on your bed or you're sitting in your favorite chair and expecting to use

00:44:28   a Mac in those locations, then those habits are going to be very difficult to break. If

00:44:32   you've always been a desktop person, you know when I want to use my serious computer, I

00:44:36   go sit down at like, you know, with Marco set up in my computer chair in my computer

00:44:40   room at my computer desk to use my computer and then everything else is iPads or phones.

00:44:48   And then if you happen to have a spare laptop around if you need it, that's fine. But mostly

00:44:51   the laptops for travel, whatever. But if your habits are the reverse of that, you're going

00:44:54   to be sad if you get an iMac because you're going to be like, "Oh, I was so used to sitting

00:44:58   down in front of the TV and watching football, but also noodling around with Node on my laptop."

00:45:03   Well, you're not going to be able to do that with an iMac, which is why you should also

00:45:06   have an Air, by the way.

00:45:08   And you're describing exactly the correct situation in that I have only ever had laptops

00:45:13   since my junior year of college, I think.

00:45:17   And so because of that, I'm used to sitting on the couch next to Erin, and maybe we're

00:45:21   watching TV, maybe we're watching football, maybe she's not watching TV, while I am, but

00:45:26   I'm also fiddling with Node. One way or another, if I have a laptop, I can be around Erin,

00:45:33   even after Declan goes to bed. Whereas, if I have this iMac, I'm implicitly ignoring

00:45:41   Erin because I'm up in the office doing whatever I want to be doing, and she's downstairs,

00:45:46   maybe reading on the couch, maybe watching TV, maybe doing something else entirely.

00:45:51   But that's probably where the iMac falls down the most, is that I would be implicitly ignoring

00:46:00   Aaron anytime I wanted to use the computer that I would want to use so very much.

00:46:03   Because I'm sure that once I saw it, I would know how beautiful it was and how much I enjoyed

00:46:09   using it, but I think it would end up—I would end up hating it because I would be

00:46:14   ignoring Aaron so much.

00:46:16   Well you can always do the setup I have here which has had its bumps but maybe it will

00:46:21   get better going forward which is a big really nice Apple display hooked up to a really small

00:46:26   thin light laptop.

00:46:29   And so right now my wife wanted to do stuff with her laptop so she took it out of the

00:46:32   room and she's working with it upstairs but most of the time she does her work in front

00:46:36   of a big giant screen, you know the iPhoto library is on her computer that's where we

00:46:40   sort through all the photos on the big 27 inch screen.

00:46:43   It's non-retina, but yeah, what can you do?

00:46:46   But when she needs to, she can detach and have a thin light laptop to go into the kitchen

00:46:52   and do stuff on the dining room table or go up in the bedroom where she is now and do

00:46:56   whatever she's doing with the laptop.

00:46:58   That's an interesting sort of hybrid setup.

00:47:01   I don't know how, like the Thunderbolt display, I had some problems with flakiness and everything

00:47:05   and it was a little bit annoying.

00:47:06   The USB-C potential future Apple display that supports all this stuff could be nicer or

00:47:14   it could be just as flaky or it could be worse, but it's an interesting way to get you both,

00:47:19   to get you the big digital hearth, which I really think if you're ever going to spend

00:47:22   any time sorting through your photos or editing your photos, doing anything having to do with

00:47:26   photos or movies, I don't know how you live in a laptop.

00:47:29   I just feel like it would be doing everything inside a phone booth.

00:47:31   Marco probably feels the same way.

00:47:34   You just feel like to do any real computer,

00:47:36   I don't even know how you do programming.

00:47:37   I don't even do anything with Node.

00:47:38   You gotta have the web browser and then your text editor

00:47:41   and then everything else all cramped

00:47:42   under this little 15 inch screen.

00:47:43   It's nice to be able to spread your stuff out.

00:47:46   - Well, right, and that's why if I'm doing serious work,

00:47:49   I'm up in my office where I am now

00:47:51   where I have a actually probably only 17,

00:47:54   maybe 20 inch external display

00:47:57   hooked up to my work computer.

00:48:00   And so if I'm really getting serious about

00:48:03   doing some node work or doing work work,

00:48:05   then I'll be upstairs in the office

00:48:06   hooked up to an external display.

00:48:07   A very unremarkable external display,

00:48:09   but an external display nevertheless.

00:48:11   But I mean, when I was doing the blog post,

00:48:13   that's why, you know, Command Tab is a thing.

00:48:16   That's why spaces are a thing.

00:48:18   And I'm used to it.

00:48:20   This is what I'm used to.

00:48:21   So the lack of real estate doesn't bother me,

00:48:23   but this is the same reason

00:48:25   why I could never have a 13-inch laptop ever again,

00:48:27   because 15 is the bare minimum amount of real estate

00:48:30   I can have without getting frustrated.

00:48:32   And when I use Aaron's computer for anything more serious

00:48:35   than just light web browsing,

00:48:37   I get very frustrated very quickly

00:48:38   because the screen is so small.

00:48:40   - You know what, don't get an iMac.

00:48:42   Because, first of all, it'll ruin you for everything, ever.

00:48:47   Second of all, your camera, I believe,

00:48:50   is 16 megapixels, right?

00:48:52   - I think that's right, yeah, off the top of my head.

00:48:54   - It will not fill the iMac screen at one to one.

00:48:56   - Yeah, but you have a much more critical eye for that

00:48:59   than I do, I think that'd be fine.

00:49:01   I don't want your computer to ruin your camera.

00:49:03   (laughs)

00:49:05   - Well, I certainly don't want to spend $34,000

00:49:07   on a camera like you just did, so maybe you're right.

00:49:10   - And there's nothing between 16 and 42 megapixels?

00:49:13   - Yes, nothing at all.

00:49:14   I have a genuine question.

00:49:16   I went to spec out the iMac with Retina display

00:49:20   just to see what it would come up to,

00:49:21   and it's about the same money as a 15 inch,

00:49:23   the way I would build it, it's roughly the same money

00:49:26   as a 15 inch Retina MacBook Pro.

00:49:27   In the different options they have,

00:49:31   choose your processor, choose memory.

00:49:33   Did you get 16 or 32, Marco?

00:49:35   - I got 32, but it doesn't matter,

00:49:37   because they're probably gonna update them

00:49:38   in the next few months, so whatever the options are now,

00:49:41   you shouldn't buy a Mac right now.

00:49:43   - Oh, no, no, I wouldn't.

00:49:44   I'm just, you know, I'm piddling for the fun of it.

00:49:46   And what hard drive did you get?

00:49:48   - I went for the terabyte SSD.

00:49:50   If you're gonna go iMac, I'd say go 100% SSD,

00:49:53   don't go Fusion, and so then just buy whatever

00:49:56   you're willing to spend among the all SSD option.

00:49:59   All right, so anyway, so I'm bringing this up because I got down to number five.

00:50:03   Choose mouse and trackpad.

00:50:04   Apple Magic Mouse, which is what I would choose.

00:50:07   Magic Trackpad for crazy people.

00:50:09   There's a third option.

00:50:11   Apple Mouse.

00:50:12   What the hell is that?

00:50:13   Is that the thing with the little ball in the middle?

00:50:16   Is it?

00:50:17   Yeah, I think so.

00:50:18   I thought that was the Mighty Mouse.

00:50:19   No, I think that's just what they call it now.

00:50:21   It's the white one with the little ball that gets gunked up on the top of it.

00:50:24   I think.

00:50:25   Why do they—who buys that?

00:50:27   Yeah, I have no idea.

00:50:28   I had no idea this was still a thing.

00:50:30   - But the important thing is you wanna get

00:50:31   the Apple extended keyboard and not the stupid wireless one

00:50:33   with the half size arrow keys.

00:50:35   - Oh God, you're intolerable.

00:50:37   - Yeah, this was the one that was originally

00:50:38   called the Mighty Mouse, right?

00:50:39   - I thought so, yeah.

00:50:40   - That thing was miserable.

00:50:41   - Yeah, I was gonna say, I didn't know anything about Macs

00:50:44   back when this was a modern mouse,

00:50:46   and even I knew that it was a terrible freaking mouse.

00:50:48   - Oh my God, that is horrendous.

00:50:51   Oh, Sam the Geek in the chat points out why you'd want this.

00:50:54   If you need to use it somewhere

00:50:55   where you can't use Bluetooth, that is interesting.

00:50:57   - That's weird.

00:50:59   - For security reasons, yep.

00:51:01   - Wow, that is a really good point.

00:51:02   - Sell to governments that you need to continue

00:51:04   to have a wired mouse that doesn't work with Bluetooth

00:51:06   and why not sell them this finger lint collecting ball thing.

00:51:11   - Yeah, I mean like of all the wired mice in the world,

00:51:14   of all the wired mice that I've used,

00:51:16   I would say this is worse than all of them.

00:51:18   - Nope, nope, I used the Puck mouse when I was in college.

00:51:21   - Oh, geez.

00:51:22   - That was as bad as people said.

00:51:23   - Here's the thing, with like, you have the mice,

00:51:26   Apple's mice before they had a thing on top for scrolling,

00:51:30   those were like better because they didn't have

00:51:32   a crappy thing on top that got gunked up,

00:51:35   but worse of course because you couldn't scroll.

00:51:36   So it's like choose your poison.

00:51:38   So the Puck mouse didn't have a scroll wheel on it,

00:51:40   so you didn't have a scroll wheel,

00:51:41   but then you couldn't tell which way it was orienting.

00:51:43   But like the Apology mouse,

00:51:45   one of the best looking mice that Apple ever made,

00:51:50   I think was one of their best mice period,

00:51:53   because it was in the days before Macs anyway,

00:51:55   and PC says scroll wheels forever,

00:51:56   but it's in the days before Mac users

00:51:59   were brought into the world of scroll wheels.

00:52:00   And so you didn't know what you were missing

00:52:02   and you're like, oh, this is, it's beautiful to look at.

00:52:05   It's nicely shaped.

00:52:06   It works very well.

00:52:09   It matches the hardware and it is not circular

00:52:13   so I can tell which direction is up.

00:52:15   It was great.

00:52:16   But yeah, once they got into the scroll wheels,

00:52:18   Apple never made a good scroll wheel

00:52:20   until basically the Magic Mouse.

00:52:21   And they said, well, we're not gonna do a wheel.

00:52:24   we're just gonna have a swipey surface thing.

00:52:25   - Well honestly, the Magic Mouse swipey surface

00:52:28   is what convinced me to finally use an Apple mouse.

00:52:32   Because before that I was using some,

00:52:33   I was using the Logitech MX Revolution.

00:52:36   And many of Logitech's high-end mice,

00:52:38   I think still have something like this.

00:52:40   But it had this cool feature where it had a really heavy,

00:52:42   like a flywheel kind of weighted scroll wheel.

00:52:45   And so if you flicked really quickly,

00:52:47   it would unlatch and just spin freely

00:52:49   rather than having little detents along the way.

00:52:52   And then you could stop it.

00:52:53   and during that spinning it would do similar to when you swipe it,

00:52:56   have like you know, have the actual inertia of this weighty flywheel thing

00:53:00   spinning around. It was great, but now the Magic Mouse does that same thing with no

00:53:07   moving parts and it's easy to find and buy anywhere and doesn't have its

00:53:12   own special proprietary charger and doesn't have its own proprietary receiver

00:53:16   and doesn't have crappy software that fails constantly under Macs. So it's

00:53:22   better in every way to me, so that's why I switched.

00:53:24   Going back for a second to the formerly Mighty Mouse,

00:53:29   did you guys ever use the squeeze side buttons?

00:53:32   Remember that?

00:53:33   You could squeeze these side buttons

00:53:34   as like a third mouse click.

00:53:36   - Yeah, they were pretty terrible.

00:53:37   - You ever actually, I remember,

00:53:38   I tried it a couple times when I used these,

00:53:40   and you had to squeeze really hard, and it was kinda--

00:53:42   - Yeah, it was too awkward for me to use,

00:53:45   although that's the problem I have with most PC mice,

00:53:48   is they have buttons everywhere on them.

00:53:49   You can't grab them without touching a button.

00:53:52   And that's too many buttons for me.

00:53:54   I can't use the Magic Mouse because it's too low.

00:53:57   And that's just a difference in mousing,

00:53:59   like what you're trained on the mousing.

00:54:00   Some people like a low mouse.

00:54:02   The Puck Mouse was made for low mouse people too.

00:54:04   It just was unfortunately circular.

00:54:05   But there's different ways that you could hold a mouse.

00:54:08   And for better or for worse,

00:54:09   my way of holding the mouse was trained

00:54:11   on the original Macintosh mouse in 1984,

00:54:14   which basically looked like a box.

00:54:16   and the way my nine year old hands learn to use that mouse

00:54:20   and all mice after it is I grab the sides of the mouse

00:54:24   with my thumb and my ring finger.

00:54:27   - Yep, same here. - Same thing.

00:54:28   - And with a low mouse, I find myself,

00:54:31   especially with the Magic Mouse,

00:54:33   because the sides are like cut in a little bit,

00:54:35   it's narrower on the bottom than it is on the top,

00:54:38   and it's very low down, I feel like I'm kind of grabbing,

00:54:41   it's like kind of grabbing a dinner plate by the sides

00:54:44   and there's this big air gap where my,

00:54:45   Like I don't, my palm doesn't rest on it.

00:54:47   - Oh, it's terrible.

00:54:48   - And I find it very uncomfortable.

00:54:49   It's a really nice mouse.

00:54:51   Like it's high quality, the swiping stuff.

00:54:53   I see the people who love that.

00:54:54   It's just not the way I hold a mouse.

00:54:56   So I'm forced to buy,

00:54:58   I've been using Logitech mice for years

00:54:59   and I have what I think is called the Logitech wheel mouse.

00:55:04   It didn't even have like an MX designation,

00:55:06   like MX 200, 300 or anything like that.

00:55:08   It's just like the Logitech wheel mouse.

00:55:10   It has two buttons on top and a scroll wheel

00:55:12   that you can also press as a third button

00:55:13   and no other buttons on it, it has flat vertical sides

00:55:16   that I can grab.

00:55:17   And every other mouse that I've tried

00:55:18   that's shaped like a snail that has buttons all over it,

00:55:21   I just can't find a nice way to grip it.

00:55:24   I even bought like, I have a series of wireless mice

00:55:26   that we use on my wife's computer,

00:55:29   and they have like grippy rubber edges on the side,

00:55:31   but they all kind of like curve in or whatever,

00:55:33   and just, they don't feel right in my hand.

00:55:35   So that's the thing about mice, they're very,

00:55:38   it's difficult to say like what's a good mouse

00:55:40   and what's a bad mouse,

00:55:41   because it all depends on what your habits are,

00:55:42   and it's difficult to break those habits.

00:55:44   And if you try to use your mousing habits

00:55:46   with a mouse that is not designed to work that way,

00:55:49   it can be very uncomfortable.

00:55:50   So a lot of these, the sort of snail ones,

00:55:52   they want you to grip them in a particular way.

00:55:54   And if that's how you do hold a mouse,

00:55:56   then that mouse fits your hand and it's great.

00:55:57   But if you fight against that, it will not feel great.

00:56:01   So if you try to grip one of these weird snail mice

00:56:02   from the side, it's just not the way

00:56:04   it's meant to be used.

00:56:05   And if you try to use the magic mouse without,

00:56:08   I don't know, how do low mouse people use it?

00:56:09   I guess they sort of rest their entire fingers,

00:56:11   - Long fingers over the thing?

00:56:13   I don't know.

00:56:13   - No, I have like an air gap.

00:56:16   So I do hold, I hold the sides with my thumb and ring finger

00:56:19   but then my index and middle finger kind of just hover over

00:56:23   like almost an inch, like pretty high over the mouse.

00:56:26   And it's like, same way like how like when you're taught

00:56:28   to play piano, you're taught not to rest your hands

00:56:30   on the keys, you're taught to kind of arch your hands up.

00:56:32   Same kind of thing, like that kind of grip

00:56:33   where like you're kind of, you're holding the mouse

00:56:36   with those, with the thumb and ring

00:56:37   but then your first two fingers are really hovering

00:56:40   pretty far above it.

00:56:41   - Yeah, I think that's not how that's sort of intended

00:56:44   to be used.

00:56:44   We should ask some of the low mouse men in yellow coats,

00:56:47   another reference that Casey won't get,

00:56:49   how they use their mice.

00:56:50   I think I've seen people doing it where they,

00:56:51   like even with the puk mouse, where they,

00:56:53   where it's almost like they're just resting their fingers

00:56:55   on it and their palm is not even, it's behind the mouse.

00:56:59   And so they're just kind of resting,

00:57:00   laying their hand on top of the mouse

00:57:02   and kind of moving it around.

00:57:02   Maybe their palm is even on the ground.

00:57:05   But, you know, anyway, people, as I said last time,

00:57:08   people send me pictures of it.

00:57:09   People use mice in crazy ways, including the one where you use the mouse upside down and

00:57:13   press the buttons with your palm.

00:57:17   Did you see all the things that people were treating me?

00:57:19   Like the pictures of Heather?

00:57:20   Yeah, there's a large variety out there.

00:57:23   Yeah, for what it's worth, I would kill everyone I knew except my family if someone came out

00:57:29   with a magic mouse that was more bulbous and had a place for like my palm to rest.

00:57:35   I use the Magic Mouse because I cannot survive without the two-finger flicks side to side

00:57:40   to go between spaces. I'm a very heavy spaces user and I am completely useless at a computer

00:57:46   if I can't flick between spaces.

00:57:48   David: You would literally die.

00:57:49   I literally can't even. But anyway, I wish so desperately that there was a more bulbous

00:57:58   Magic Mouse because I would buy that instantly. So if anyone wants a Kickstarter idea, there

00:58:04   There you go.

00:58:05   Make a, make some sort of god-awful bulbous magic mouse that isn't just completely disgusting

00:58:14   to look at.

00:58:15   Good luck.

00:58:16   And I will pay obscene amounts of money for it.

00:58:18   Yeah, did you see this picture that someone put in the chatroom of them trying to use

00:58:21   the magic mouse like a traditional mouse holding it from the side?

00:58:23   Maybe this person has very large hands, but I'd forgotten like just how darn small the,

00:58:28   the Apple Magic Mouse is a beautiful piece of industrial design.

00:58:31   It looks like a piece of sushi like a piece of fish laying on top of like a bed of rice or something

00:58:35   It is it is a beautiful sculpture

00:58:37   It is not shaped like a mouse that works with my hand and I don't think you're supposed to grip it the way this person

00:58:42   Is gripping it. I don't think you're supposed to grip it the way you're gripping it Marco. I think that is an

00:58:44   uncomfortable kind of

00:58:47   Keeping your hand just it just doesn't look like the way I imagined them when they made this product

00:58:52   It's supposed to be used and I've seen people use them with the flat hand technique that looks more comfortable to me

00:58:56   I mean you can get away with it. It doesn't bother your hand doesn't bother your hand. It's fine

00:58:59   It just doesn't seem ideal to me.

00:59:01   It does bother my hand.

00:59:02   Like I, having this sort of static contraction

00:59:04   of having your muscles just sort of in that position

00:59:06   for a long period of time, I need them to relax

00:59:08   and I need to have something supporting my hand.

00:59:11   And I need, and I definitely need to feel

00:59:13   a secure grip on the sides.

00:59:14   A lot of my mouse movement is, like for small movements,

00:59:18   just moving my ring and thumb and having like

00:59:21   the palm of my hand resting on the mouse

00:59:23   or even partially on the table,

00:59:25   moving fine adjustments on the mouse.

00:59:27   with a little piece of sushi underneath my hands.

00:59:31   I just, I don't know.

00:59:32   And plus that mouse is pretty darn heavy

00:59:33   in the grand scheme of things.

00:59:35   - Yeah, the heaviness is not great,

00:59:36   especially if you switch to rechargeable batteries.

00:59:39   Nickel metal hot dry batteries are pretty dense

00:59:41   compared to other kinds, so that's no good.

00:59:43   But one thing I find,

00:59:45   it probably comes into a lot of what you're used to

00:59:47   because you're citing what sound like

00:59:49   ergonomic concerns, really.

00:59:51   And for me, I actually like the ergonomics of it

00:59:53   because I can move it with my fingers.

00:59:56   I'm not really moving my wrist as much.

01:00:00   I'm doing most of the movements with my whole arm

01:00:03   almost all stationary.

01:00:05   And I'm moving the mouse around

01:00:06   just with the thumb and the index finger

01:00:08   kinda slide it back and forth.

01:00:09   - That's what I was just describing.

01:00:11   I was doing it with my mouse.

01:00:12   It's just that you don't have any support

01:00:14   for the rest of your hand.

01:00:15   The mouse is doing nothing to support you.

01:00:17   You are attacking the mouse with your fingers.

01:00:19   You are gripping it and you are pressing it,

01:00:21   but the mouse is not supporting

01:00:22   any part of your body whatsoever.

01:00:24   No part of your body is resting on the mouse.

01:00:26   you are merely manipulating with the sides.

01:00:27   Whereas if you have something like casea

01:00:28   that's more bulbous, you can rest the, you know,

01:00:32   some part of your hand and some of the weight

01:00:33   on the actual mouse and still have your fingers

01:00:36   in that position too at a moment's notice,

01:00:37   wiggle it back and forth with your ring and your thumb.

01:00:40   - So real-time follow-up, Jelly in the chat room

01:00:44   has given us a link to the Magic Mouse Fixed,

01:00:47   which is at mmfixed.com.

01:00:50   This is the exact, it is fixing the exact problem

01:00:53   want fixed in the most hideous possible way. So it's apparently a piece of silicone that

01:00:59   has a suction cup on the bottom that you just drop on top of your Magic Mouse and then magically

01:01:03   all your problems go away. It is fixing what I want fixed, but that is unbelievably ugly.

01:01:09   I mean, that's just that just goes to show like I think the the Magic Mouse was so clearly

01:01:13   designed with a particular use case in mind like they wouldn't have made it so low profile

01:01:17   if they expected you to grip it from the side. So if you're coming at it trying to do the

01:01:21   grip from the side, you're fighting against the design as it was made.

01:01:24   And if you want something bulbous to be resting in the palm of your hand, the Magic Mouse

01:01:27   is not it.

01:01:28   It's not like they accidentally made it like that.

01:01:30   Like, it is not made to be like other mice.

01:01:32   Other mice are bulked up for a reason.

01:01:34   There's just air in there.

01:01:35   There's not like, you know, they needed room for the batteries or anything.

01:01:37   This mouse is low profile.

01:01:39   It's meant to be used in a different way.

01:01:40   I'm not entirely sure what way it is because I don't use a mouse that way.

01:01:44   But it's not like a mistake where they just made it a little bit too low.

01:01:48   It's super low with a purpose, I think.

01:01:50   Well, and the purpose is definitely, you know, aesthetics.

01:01:53   It could be aesthetics, but it could also be mousing technique.

01:01:56   Like, have you seen people use the puck where they would...

01:01:58   Part of the fix for the puck would be that people would creep their fingers over the

01:02:02   edge and arrest their two fingers around the wire so they could tell which end was up on

01:02:06   the thing.

01:02:07   And that led to a kind of mousing with like a kind of a flat hand mousing technique with

01:02:11   your entire hand draped.

01:02:12   It wouldn't work with a magic mouse because if your entire hand is draped over it, you

01:02:15   have to pick your fingers up and get them over the swiping surface to do your gestures,

01:02:19   you know?

01:02:20   All right, what else is awesome these days?

01:02:22   - Can you tell it's August?

01:02:24   - Yeah, for real.

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01:05:29   - All right, so Marco,

01:05:30   what did you do to the Overcast database?

01:05:32   - Oh, nothing, I did a line-on migration.

01:05:35   I migrated to a bigger line-ode.

01:05:36   (laughs)

01:05:37   That's what it was.

01:05:39   - Wow.

01:05:40   - Yeah, no, so line-on, they upgraded their hypervisor

01:05:43   whatever, whatever, from whatever it was before Zen, maybe? Yeah, from Zen to KVM. And I don't

01:05:49   follow any of this stuff. I don't know what the differences are. And they say it's faster

01:05:54   by a lot. So I said, "Okay, great. Upgrade for free." So to upgrade it, you just have

01:05:58   to turn off the VPS and then they have to migrate the disk images over to the new system.

01:06:05   So you're basically waiting on disk images to migrate. And they do it at maybe 150 megs

01:06:09   a second. So when you have like a 200 gig database for your, you know, it's a pretty

01:06:14   lengthy process. I think it was down for like 45 minutes or something. But that's what I

01:06:19   was doing. I was upgrading all my servers to KVM from Xen and I was also upgrading a

01:06:26   couple of them to be higher capacity VPSs from Linode, which also requires the same

01:06:31   migration to happen. That's it. So I took everything down, upgraded a bunch of them.

01:06:36   And I've been doing a few over time without taking anything down, but this one of all

01:06:39   the master database and I know, believe me, I know more than you probably need to explain

01:06:47   right now, I know how to make databases that you can take down to master and the site stays

01:06:52   up. I know. Please don't tell me about that, those schemes, I know. I even know that there

01:06:58   are fancy new storage things where there is no master and you can just take anything down

01:07:02   whenever you want and they're eventually consistent and they usually work and they usually don't

01:07:06   need any maintenance and they usually perform well. Yeah, that's nice too. Please don't

01:07:12   tell me about those either. Yeah, so that's what I was doing, taking another master database,

01:07:18   updating it to those things, making everything bigger and faster and then turning everything

01:07:22   back on. And with Linode, this is literally like you click a few links in the web interface

01:07:26   and you wait and then they tell you when they're done. It's really ridiculously easy. This

01:07:31   is not an ad but it should be. I love Linode so much. Like I have used so many other hosts

01:07:35   And man, I will now, everything that I can

01:07:40   reasonably do on Linode, I do now.

01:07:44   And before, I forget when it was, like last,

01:07:46   I think it was last year when they upgraded,

01:07:48   or maybe it was two years ago,

01:07:49   when they upgraded to their like next generation hardware.

01:07:52   And when they basically went to Xeon E5s,

01:07:55   to really nice ones.

01:07:57   And when they, before they did that,

01:08:00   they still had like the nicest, easiest control panel

01:08:03   of everything and they had just good hosting overall.

01:08:08   They were still very good.

01:08:09   But they weren't a great deal before that.

01:08:11   They were an okay deal.

01:08:12   Ever since that upgrade, and I believe a lot of this

01:08:15   was prompted by DigitalOcean because DigitalOcean

01:08:17   is a very similar kind of service.

01:08:19   I don't think it's as good.

01:08:20   I think it's still good, but Linode has a number

01:08:23   of advanced features that DigitalOcean doesn't offer,

01:08:25   many of which I use and enjoy.

01:08:27   And DigitalOcean is also just, they're young.

01:08:31   I tried them in the past, they're fine, but they're young

01:08:35   and when I tried them they were going through

01:08:37   some growing pains, I assume they're more stable now

01:08:40   'cause that was like a year and a half or two years ago.

01:08:42   Anyway, it doesn't matter.

01:08:43   Linode, right now, ever since they did that big SSD upgrade

01:08:46   to match DigitalOcean's performance and pricing,

01:08:49   I would say Linode is the best deal

01:08:51   in the hosting business.

01:08:52   Now, I have always loved going and leasing dedicated servers

01:08:56   from cheap unmanaged server vendors,

01:08:58   so that, you know, please, I don't need your tech support,

01:09:00   I don't need you to install WordPress for me.

01:09:02   I just want a cheap server that I don't have to manage

01:09:04   the hardware for.

01:09:05   You manage the hardware, I will do the entire

01:09:06   software management, please.

01:09:08   And Linode is now, for most things, even cheaper

01:09:12   than going to a cheap dedicated host.

01:09:14   So something like Limestone Networks or High Velocity,

01:09:19   like Linode is actually even cheaper than those

01:09:21   for what you get a lot of the time.

01:09:23   It's incredible.

01:09:23   I still have no idea how it's so cheap, but it is.

01:09:26   You know, it's not perfect, no host is perfect.

01:09:28   I've occasionally had network issues with them,

01:09:30   but of all the hosts I've tried over the years,

01:09:33   they are the one I am by far most happy with.

01:09:35   - So because it's August,

01:09:38   the story that sounded like it would be so interesting

01:09:41   and so salacious was I moved to databases

01:09:45   and I moved to VPSs.

01:09:46   - It was literally, I clicked a few links

01:09:48   in the web interface and waited.

01:09:49   (laughing)

01:09:51   - You know, you're not helping our August doldrums at all.

01:09:53   - It would have been a lot bigger of a deal

01:09:55   had I actually been on dedicated servers and not VPSs,

01:09:58   but this is one of the reasons why I use VPSs now.

01:10:01   Now the bad news is that I was upgrading

01:10:06   from eight gigs of RAM to 16 on my database.

01:10:11   In dedicated server terms,

01:10:12   unless you're somewhere incredibly expensive

01:10:14   like SoftLayer or Rackspace,

01:10:16   if you're somewhere reasonably priced for automatic servers,

01:10:20   16 gigs of RAM should not cost a lot of money.

01:10:23   But for Linux, that's a big deal,

01:10:25   but it's still only 160 bucks a month for this VPS.

01:10:27   and it's like, well if you look at what can you get

01:10:30   for 160 bucks a month on dedicated host,

01:10:33   you can't get much closer to this.

01:10:35   I still can't believe how much you get for your money

01:10:41   with these Linode VPSs.

01:10:43   And again, this is not an ad.

01:10:44   They've never sponsored me.

01:10:45   I have a referral link, I think, somewhere.

01:10:47   Yeah, I have a referral link for Linode.

01:10:49   I'll put it in the show notes so that, I don't know,

01:10:51   we can make some money off of this giant non-ad,

01:10:53   but man, it is so good.

01:10:55   I like it a lot.

01:10:57   - All right.

01:10:58   - Wanna talk iPad Pro?

01:11:00   - Actually, I just looking for a little bit

01:11:02   of a real-time follow up on the last topic about mice.

01:11:04   The wire, in the Wirecarters mouse review,

01:11:05   they have this graphic that I,

01:11:07   that's from Razer actually showing the contact patch

01:11:10   of these little hand diagrams,

01:11:14   three, for three grips of the mouse,

01:11:16   one called the palm grip, then the claw grip,

01:11:18   and then the fingertip grip.

01:11:19   I wish they'd showed actual photos of hands doing it,

01:11:21   but someone placed this link in the chat room.

01:11:25   It's worth checking out that this review

01:11:27   at least acknowledges the different ways

01:11:29   that people hold mice.

01:11:30   And I bet there is a much larger variety

01:11:32   than just those three.

01:11:34   I think they're just trying to capture

01:11:35   the three most common, but it really influences

01:11:38   how you shape the mouse, how you're expecting people

01:11:41   to hold it, and there's not just one way.

01:11:43   And that's before you even get into things like hand size,

01:11:45   like before you're even considering variations in hand size,

01:11:48   just like within one hand size,

01:11:50   you can be holding it in very different ways.

01:11:52   So anyway, that's, and I've put in more links, Casey,

01:11:55   for the different.

01:11:57   mice that I own and pictures of them and stuff like that.

01:11:59   - Wait, so on this Razer thing, this mouse on the left,

01:12:02   is that a number pad on the mouse?

01:12:03   What the heck is that?

01:12:05   - That's a gaming thing, I don't know.

01:12:06   (laughing)

01:12:08   - There's like this little like 12 button grid

01:12:11   of buttons in the thumb area on this crazy gaming mouse.

01:12:16   Oh my God, it's like a Jaguar controller.

01:12:18   - That's what I'm talking about,

01:12:19   like they have buttons everywhere.

01:12:20   Like how can you even grab them

01:12:22   without accidentally hitting a button?

01:12:23   Especially when they put buttons on the side,

01:12:25   like that's where I hold it.

01:12:26   I don't want to have buttons on the side and then they have buttons they have buttons on top of the buttons

01:12:29   So you can't even rest your finger on a button or else you accidentally hit another button. Oh my goodness

01:12:34   Oh my god, people are crazy gamers. Yo dog. I heard you like buttons with your buttons. Nice

01:12:38   Yeah, that's why I've never been able to get into the razor mice

01:12:40   Some of it like the first-person shooter appeal for like the high resolution and like that whatever they're trying to do with low latency and

01:12:48   all this other stuff

01:12:49   but it just as a thing to grab and mouse around with it just never looked particularly comfortable for me whenever I go into the

01:12:54   store and see them and spread my germs by going up into the huge display of mice and

01:13:00   grabbing each one of them and clicking around.

01:13:04   Nothing ever feels quite right to me.

01:13:05   I don't know what I'm going to do.

01:13:07   My mouse at work died.

01:13:08   This Logitech wheel mouse thing that we'll put in the show notes before they even had

01:13:12   the MX numbering scheme.

01:13:14   It died and I bought a new modern one that I thought looked like it and I used it for

01:13:18   a couple days and I just didn't like it so I had to go on eBay and find someone selling

01:13:23   the exact old model of mouse that I had before.

01:13:27   And I got it and it works,

01:13:28   and that's what I'm using now at work.

01:13:30   - You can always get people to send in

01:13:31   their gross old used mice to you.

01:13:33   - I know, but it's like a very specific model.

01:13:35   But no, I bought it on eBay.

01:13:36   It was like 20 bucks or something.

01:13:37   I'm like, you know what, let me just get that same,

01:13:39   that age where, I mean, there's probably a modern mouse

01:13:42   out there that I would like, but I tried.

01:13:45   Like, I tried my best.

01:13:46   Like, I went to, you know, I like Logitech mice.

01:13:49   I went to their website.

01:13:49   I looked at a bunch of other things.

01:13:50   I think I might even look at this Wirecutter review.

01:13:52   I tried a bunch of mice in person and I'm like,

01:13:54   you know what, let me get this one.

01:13:55   It's so close to what I get now.

01:13:57   It's made by the same company.

01:13:58   I'm sure it will be just the same and it wasn't.

01:14:00   It was just different enough to annoy me.

01:14:02   So I said, I'll just get the same mouse.

01:14:04   - Do they include an Android tablet

01:14:06   when you bought from them?

01:14:07   - No, but what I'm always afraid of with,

01:14:09   I'm buying things in eBay.

01:14:10   I guess when people buy things in eBay,

01:14:11   they're afraid of like someone, you know, it's a scam.

01:14:15   They're just gonna take my money and not send me anything.

01:14:17   They're gonna send me something

01:14:18   that didn't look like it did in the picture.

01:14:19   Like all the things that you're worried about

01:14:21   when you do eBay, right?

01:14:22   Are you afraid of secret fans?

01:14:23   - Yeah, you know what I'm worried about

01:14:26   when I do things on eBay?

01:14:27   That it's going to be sent to me by someone who smokes.

01:14:31   Because then the box will smell like smoke

01:14:32   and the item will smell like smoke forever

01:14:34   and ever and ever and I just won't be able to use it

01:14:36   because it will smell like an ashtray.

01:14:37   - Yep, that's a, in many online,

01:14:40   so I've recently been selling some headphones and stuff.

01:14:42   In a lot of these online marketplaces,

01:14:45   you will see almost every ad say,

01:14:46   non-smoking household, no pets.

01:14:49   Smoking, that's a huge thing.

01:14:51   I can always tell if like a box was in somewhere that smoked or somewhere with cats. Like I'm

01:14:58   allergic to cats. I don't have cats. I am very sensitive to the smell of cat houses

01:15:04   and I can always tell. Like it isn't as strong as smoking but it's there, you know. Anyway,

01:15:11   no smoking, no pets.

01:15:12   I don't know if I've ever had one with a pet smell because that, I mean, obviously if it's

01:15:16   something with fabric or something but I'm thinking like something that is like hard

01:15:19   shiny plastic or electronics or something. Maybe I guess if cat hair is

01:15:22   sucked up into the thing. I remember someone I used to work with had a... it

01:15:26   wasn't the wind tunnel, I think it was the mirror drive door. You guys don't remember

01:15:30   these names. Anyway, one of the tower Macs that had like intake ports. It wasn't

01:15:35   like the cheese grater, it was pre-cheese grater. It was back when they had the four

01:15:38   handles and the sides of the things. It had an intake in the front and it would blow air out

01:15:41   the back. And he opened up his computer to clean out one day and like the

01:15:44   intakes in the front all led into this big like wedge type thing and the wedge

01:15:48   was just filled with a solid wedge of cat hair. They could just pull out and it was

01:15:51   just like, it was like a perfectly structured, it was like taking a mold of the inside of

01:15:55   the intake vent. So yeah, cat hair. I can imagine electronics smelling like that, but

01:16:00   it's not even like a mouse. There's no place you can go inside of it, there's no ball or

01:16:04   anything. I can imagine that smelling like a cat. But the thing about cigarette smoke

01:16:07   is it just permeates, especially if there's any kind of like rubber. Even if there's plastic,

01:16:11   it just never goes away. It's bad. Even Lego can smell like smoke if it's been in a smoking

01:16:17   - Gross.

01:16:18   - But anyway, my mouse I bought for work, non-smoking.

01:16:21   It does not smell like anything.

01:16:23   And pretty much brand new.

01:16:24   Like it wasn't any original blister pack,

01:16:26   but if it was used, I couldn't tell.

01:16:27   - So John, since you're not doing your review this summer,

01:16:31   much to the sadness of all of us,

01:16:35   what have you been wasting, no, spending your time on

01:16:39   for the last, I don't know, two or three weeks?

01:16:41   - Yeah, every once in a while I remember

01:16:43   that I have El Capitan installed and I boot into it

01:16:45   and then I wait 45 minutes for the seven updates

01:16:48   that I haven't installed to be installed,

01:16:49   which by the way, Crayhawk and Barry

01:16:51   already filed the radar on this,

01:16:52   and I think it's kind of annoying too.

01:16:54   Why is it that I can't just jump right to the latest beta?

01:16:56   Why do I have to go through all the different updaters?

01:16:58   It takes a really long time.

01:16:59   If you are, if the current beta is beta seven

01:17:02   and you have beta four,

01:17:04   then you have to install beta five and reboot,

01:17:06   install beta six and reboot, install beta seven and reboot.

01:17:09   And each one of these betas is like a gig or more downloaded

01:17:11   and then you gotta wait for it to install.

01:17:13   I don't quite understand why they're doing that this year.

01:17:15   And I'm glad I don't really have to deal with it.

01:17:17   I mean, I guess if I was doing the review,

01:17:18   I would never have to do more than one update

01:17:19   because I would literally be on the latest.

01:17:20   But anyway, occasionally I reboot into it and fiddle around.

01:17:25   And one of the things that came to my attention,

01:17:27   I think Jason Snell brought it up

01:17:29   in one of the Slack channels, was like,

01:17:31   you know Safari 9's new pinned tab feature

01:17:34   that they demoed in the keynotes where you can,

01:17:37   same thing as like Chrome and the other things,

01:17:38   everywhere you can take a tab and then pin it

01:17:40   and it becomes a tiny icon in the left-hand side

01:17:43   of your tab bar and it's there all the time.

01:17:45   When you do that, Apple has, of course,

01:17:48   for whatever crazy reason, a new way for you

01:17:52   to specify what your icon is.

01:17:53   When it's pinned, they don't just use your favicon thing.

01:17:56   I don't know why they don't use it, they just don't.

01:17:58   What they want you to use is to put an SVG,

01:18:02   and apparently it has to be an SVG,

01:18:04   somewhere on your site and then specify in this meta tag

01:18:06   that there's two different versions.

01:18:08   I'll put them both in the show.

01:18:08   It says two different versions on Apple's site.

01:18:10   One of them is develop it at apple.com/library/safari.

01:18:14   Safari release notes and the other one is developer dot apple comm slash library slash pre-release slash Mac slash release notes

01:18:21   They disagree about what you're supposed to do. I put both of them in there

01:18:25   I think one of them does nothing but whatever until they get their acts together

01:18:28   Put both of them in and by the way, if you're gonna try to do this yourself

01:18:31   People to whatever seeing me complain about this

01:18:34   They're having trouble doing it like anything if you dealt with Safari before you would know this but if you haven't it may be a surprise

01:18:40   Safari for fav icons or anything having to do with icons

01:18:44   Once it downloads one or once it decides there is not one to download

01:18:47   You will not convince it that it needs to download it again

01:18:51   You have to go to tilde slash library slash Safari slash

01:18:54   Template space icons and delete everything in that directory and then relaunch Safari

01:18:58   If you don't do that

01:18:59   You'll spend an hour saying why isn't it reading my SVG and keep reloading it will never

01:19:03   Reload your SVG probably like 30 days from now or something

01:19:06   Quit Safari delete everything in that directory relaunch Safari. That's the way you have to do this. Anyway, I

01:19:13   I don't in my blog that I never updated in hypercritical.co

01:19:17   My icon is this little pixelated original Mac that I drew way back when

01:19:22   and I wanted that to be my little pin tab icon and

01:19:26   there's a problem because the format is SVG and my thing is pixel art and

01:19:31   Apple nowhere and its documentation tells you even what size your SVG is going to be displayed at

01:19:37   So first I had to get it working at all that took a little bit of noodling and everything and finding an app that can

01:19:43   do SVG, I downloaded a trial of Illustrator for this which is ridiculous.

01:19:48   Isn't it incredibly mediocre?

01:19:51   God, I had Illustrator CS6, I have Photoshop CS6 which I like for the most part.

01:19:58   Illustrator CS6 I had a trial of, no I was paying for it month by month.

01:20:01   Remember when Adobe let you do like one app per month and you pay like $10 and use Illustrator

01:20:06   for a month or whatever?

01:20:07   Anyway it said, "Oh your Illustrator CS6 thing is expired, go renew it or whatever."

01:20:12   I could not for the life of me figure out

01:20:14   how to pay Adobe another $10

01:20:16   to use Illustrator CS6 for a month.

01:20:19   I just couldn't figure it out.

01:20:20   All it could lead me to was signing up

01:20:23   for some crazy subscription thing

01:20:25   or just downloading a trial of Illustrator CC,

01:20:28   which is what I did.

01:20:30   - Even if you do exactly what Adobe wants you to do,

01:20:33   even if you say, okay,

01:20:34   I will sign up for the subscription,

01:20:35   it is so incredibly difficult to navigate Adobe's site

01:20:38   and their store and the whole creative cloud suite mess,

01:20:42   Even if you do everything right,

01:20:45   it's still miserable and confusing.

01:20:47   Whoever designed all of that

01:20:49   should really go back and rethink it

01:20:50   because it's just a disaster.

01:20:52   Not to mention, if you do want to do anything

01:20:54   besides the ideal thing of signing up for everything,

01:20:58   if you want one of these smaller subscriptions

01:21:00   where it's only one app or it's one of the little bundles,

01:21:03   that's even worse.

01:21:05   I can't even imagine what you were trying to do,

01:21:06   which is one app, an old version of that app, no less,

01:21:10   trying to get a one month subscription,

01:21:12   yeah, you didn't stand a chance.

01:21:14   - Well, see, here's the worst thing.

01:21:15   The stupid Adobe CC menu bar icon

01:21:18   that nags you about this stuff,

01:21:20   like it shows you the big thing that you sign in,

01:21:23   it shows you all your apps and whatever.

01:21:25   Inside that thing, it said Illustrator CS6,

01:21:28   you know, whatever, like renew, need to renew or whatever.

01:21:31   Like it had a link on it that was saying,

01:21:33   click this link to go and pay us more money.

01:21:35   But if you click the link,

01:21:36   it didn't take you any place to get CS6.

01:21:38   It took you like through three redirects

01:21:39   some illustrator page where you could try to get illustrator CC so it's like

01:21:42   that your little menu bar thing is trying to tell me that I can somehow

01:21:46   give you more money to keep using illustrator CS6 but when I click through

01:21:49   the link that it provides to me it takes me to your website and makes it seem

01:21:51   like it's not there and I search for a while and anyway that's a tangent

01:21:55   Adobe stuff is weird that's one of the reasons I got CS6 it was like the last

01:21:58   non creative cloud version like it's just plain old software that you can

01:22:02   install it's still phones home to check its authentication or whatever but

01:22:05   But anyway, happy with Photoshop,

01:22:08   not really happy with Illustrator.

01:22:11   And really, I'm drawing a little icon here.

01:22:13   So I had my outline image, here's the other thing,

01:22:17   'cause I'm gonna get into more of how terrible I am

01:22:19   with the graphics apps.

01:22:20   My outline image that I used for my T-shirt,

01:22:22   if you bought a hypercritical T-shirt back in the day,

01:22:24   this is the little Mac logo that's on top of it.

01:22:26   So all I did was take my T-shirt graphic,

01:22:28   which was a vector image, and I deleted the text,

01:22:31   and I'm just left with the icon part of it.

01:22:33   And I thought I was all set,

01:22:35   but apparently those vectors are weird and SVG,

01:22:38   like when I saved it as SVG in Illustrator,

01:22:39   I looked at the source 'cause it's just an XML file.

01:22:41   I could see it was doing all sorts of strange things.

01:22:44   And I was like, this, this SVG is much more complicated

01:22:47   than it needs to be.

01:22:48   I'm not quite sure what Illustrator is doing,

01:22:49   but apparently this outline that I used for the T-shirt

01:22:52   is much more complicated than it needs to be.

01:22:55   And honestly, like the entire image is made of,

01:22:59   it's a pixel image, it's made of squares basically,

01:23:02   or if you want rectangles, that's all the entire thing is.

01:23:04   So I'm like, I just need to set up a grid.

01:23:06   I can redraw this by hand.

01:23:08   I can draw this icon on graph paper for you.

01:23:09   Like I know how many dots are in every dimension.

01:23:11   There's a certain number of dots.

01:23:12   I know exactly where they are.

01:23:14   Give me a piece of graph paper

01:23:15   and I can color it in for you.

01:23:16   So I'm like, that should be easy to do.

01:23:17   But Illustrator is really not made for that type of thing.

01:23:19   I am absolutely sure that you could do it in Illustrator.

01:23:21   I'm sure an Illustrator expert,

01:23:23   but it's seven keystrokes,

01:23:24   have the grid set up the way,

01:23:25   you know, and then just go down,

01:23:27   doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo,

01:23:28   Oh, done, done, done.

01:23:29   I'm not an Illustrator expert.

01:23:31   The app was imperative for me.

01:23:32   Last time I understood Illustrator was Illustrator 88.

01:23:37   Anything after that, I was like--

01:23:38   - As in 1988?

01:23:39   - Yes, everything after that was me--

01:23:41   - I was six.

01:23:41   - Was me just poking around and not knowing how to use it.

01:23:45   But anyway, I got the job done eventually on Illustrator.

01:23:47   Got the SVG to something that was saying it worked.

01:23:50   Put it up on the site, rebooted into LCAP, launched Safari,

01:23:56   pinned my tab and saw the world's blurriest,

01:23:58   disgusting looking, you know,

01:23:59   like nothing on a pixel edge boundary,

01:24:02   just a terrible blurry blob.

01:24:05   And then I was like, all right, well,

01:24:06   do I really care if it's blurry?

01:24:07   All I really care about is if it's clear in retina mode,

01:24:09   even though I have no retina max,

01:24:10   I know most people who are gonna be, you know, pinning it.

01:24:14   I mean, no one's gonna pin my set anyway.

01:24:15   This is the absurdity of all this.

01:24:16   The site never gets updated.

01:24:18   No one's gonna pin the tab because why would you?

01:24:20   I just, you know, it's a diversion,

01:24:21   something I wanted you to do.

01:24:23   So I tried to switch into retina node,

01:24:24   but high DPI mode wasn't available

01:24:26   and the quartz debug thing also was not available

01:24:30   and the old version of quartz debug didn't work

01:24:32   so I had to find the plist key

01:24:33   to enable the high DPI setting.

01:24:34   Anyway, eventually did that, turned on high DPI mode,

01:24:37   put monitor to that mode, launched Safari,

01:24:40   looked at the pin tab and it was blurry in retina too.

01:24:42   So I was like, oh, I'm just, I gave up for a while.

01:24:45   This was several weeks ago.

01:24:45   I was like, all right, well, I've got the icon for it.

01:24:48   Doesn't look great.

01:24:49   Jason said it looked good in his retina iMac

01:24:51   but I think he has, he's an old person with bad vision.

01:24:53   Like seriously, it's like nothing is on a pixel edge.

01:24:55   It does not look good.

01:24:57   Maybe when it's retina, you can't tell as much,

01:24:59   like on a real retina screen,

01:25:00   instead of like my, you know,

01:25:01   two X mode on my regular non-retina screen,

01:25:03   you can really see how blurry it is.

01:25:05   But this weekend I took another run at it.

01:25:08   Inspired by a couple of things.

01:25:09   First of all, I was inspired by the release of Acorn 5,

01:25:12   which is Gus Mueller's new version

01:25:15   of his drawing application,

01:25:17   which is way friendlier than illustrator.

01:25:19   And like, it was really easy for me to draw my icon.

01:25:22   That's one of my tests now of drawing apps.

01:25:24   Can I draw my icon really quickly?

01:25:26   'Cause it's the easiest thing in the world to do.

01:25:27   Just set up a grid, take a bunch of rectangles

01:25:30   with a fill in, no stroke.

01:25:31   I know how many dots it's supposed to be.

01:25:33   This should be really easy to do.

01:25:34   Make the canvas the size I want.

01:25:36   It is really easy to draw in Acorn.

01:25:37   Unfortunately Acorn doesn't have SVG export,

01:25:39   which made me sad.

01:25:40   So I drew it in like two seconds,

01:25:42   it was all excited, no SVG export.

01:25:45   I think I complained about it on Twitter.

01:25:47   It's the magic of Twitter.

01:25:48   I got up on a suggestion.

01:25:48   Someone suggested Affinity Designer,

01:25:50   which I'd never heard of before.

01:25:51   Have you guys ever heard of this app?

01:25:52   - No.

01:25:54   - Really impressive app.

01:25:55   Like I've never heard of this developer, this company,

01:25:59   but it's clear that they mostly understand the Mac.

01:26:04   Like they're trying to be very Mac-like,

01:26:06   but at the same time, they do a lot of custom UI.

01:26:08   And you can say, how could that be the same?

01:26:09   How can you be trying to be like all Yosemite and Mac-like,

01:26:12   but also use custom UI for all your widgets,

01:26:14   like pop-up menus and everything?

01:26:16   It's kind of the same way.

01:26:18   I mean, you've all used Photoshop and Illustrator,

01:26:20   or at least Margot has, but you know how Adobe's

01:26:22   got their own UI for their pop-up menus

01:26:24   and their text fields and all this other stuff,

01:26:25   and you can even change it to different sizes.

01:26:27   - And they're all terrible.

01:26:29   - Right, and it's like, it's kind of,

01:26:31   they're trying to be cross-platform,

01:26:32   so it looks the same everywhere,

01:26:33   but there's the history of them doing

01:26:35   their own widget toolkits, and you could change

01:26:36   the color of the UI to be black or gray or light color,

01:26:40   you know how they added that option,

01:26:41   I think around CS6 they started adding that option,

01:26:43   you could change the color of the UI and stuff.

01:26:46   Affinity is like that, but their custom UI

01:26:49   looks much better than Adobe's, first of all.

01:26:51   Doesn't quite look like native UI,

01:26:53   but it looks like, I mean, it's kind of like Final Cut,

01:26:57   but the ProKit, if you use Final Cut Pro,

01:26:59   Apple has its own custom widget toolkit

01:27:01   that he used to use for Final Cut Pro,

01:27:03   which also didn't look like the system widgets,

01:27:05   but looked kind of like them.

01:27:06   This is like that.

01:27:07   But anyway, Affinity Designer,

01:27:09   incredibly full-featured application, super confusing,

01:27:12   but not as confusing as Illustrator.

01:27:14   So it's like, there's Acorn, which is super friendly,

01:27:17   and you should get,

01:27:18   if you just want to draw something and be done

01:27:19   you don't need to export from SVG.

01:27:20   I just would have used Acorn

01:27:21   if I could have gotten away with it.

01:27:23   Then there's Illustrator, which defeats me

01:27:24   because I'm not a professional designer.

01:27:25   And then Affinity, professional designers were tweeting me

01:27:28   and saying, "I use this instead of Illustrator

01:27:30   "and I do my work in it."

01:27:31   So I think it has the capability

01:27:32   to be a full-fledged professional design app,

01:27:34   but it is much more complicated

01:27:36   and has lots of floating palettes and windows

01:27:38   with tons and tons of options.

01:27:40   But the thing is, I know which options I want.

01:27:42   I just need to be able to find them.

01:27:43   And in Affinity Designer, I could pull up the giant,

01:27:45   they have a snapping manager and a separate grid manager.

01:27:48   I'm like yes snap to pixel edges. No don't snap the shapes

01:27:51   Yes, like every option that I can think of was there click click click click click could draw my icon and then key

01:27:57   snap to pixel edges and they have a

01:27:59   mode where you can show what the pixels are gonna look like and flip back and forth really easily between the vector what the

01:28:04   Pixels are gonna look like so there I could draw my icon and export it

01:28:08   so there was stuck on pixel edges and the only thing I needed to know from there was how big is the actual display size

01:28:13   and pixels and

01:28:15   I tried making an entirely black

01:28:17   SVG image to use as my little icon but for whatever reason Safari wouldn't display it.

01:28:23   I think I was still fighting with the markup at that point with the two different versions.

01:28:26   But I just went into Pixi which is another, I think Pixi comes with the Mac.

01:28:30   Do you guys know about Pixi?

01:28:31   No.

01:28:32   Maybe it's in the graphics tools. If you go to Apple's developer tool section and look

01:28:37   for the graphics tools download it comes with Pixi and a bunch of other things.

01:28:40   Anyway it just gives you a zoomed in version of the screen.

01:28:42   And I just manually counted the pixels and it was 16 by 16 or 32 by 32 in retina.

01:28:46   So I saved my SVG at 32 by 32, aligned on pixel edges,

01:28:53   exported, and voila, I tweeted the screenshot earlier.

01:28:57   I now have a exact pixel perfect SVG image of an icon

01:29:03   as my pin tab icon in Safari 9, which I surely

01:29:06   will break and become blurry in Safari 10

01:29:08   and probably won't look right in iOS either.

01:29:10   But for this brief moment in time,

01:29:12   I have defeated the pinned icon beast.

01:29:14   And I discovered a cool new application, Affinity Designer,

01:29:17   and I got to play with some of the new features of Acorn 5,

01:29:19   which is really cool too.

01:29:21   - Our final sponsor this week is Igloo.

01:29:23   Go to igloosoftware.com/atp.

01:29:27   Igloo is an intranet you will actually like.

01:29:30   Now anybody who's worked in a corporate environment,

01:29:33   Casey, John, knows how painful intranets can be.

01:29:37   The content is stale, the interface is ugly,

01:29:39   usually doesn't work right on your phone

01:29:41   or your mobile devices.

01:29:43   Igloo is an internet that you'll actually like because it is built by modern human beings

01:29:48   who have good skills using modern technologies and it's designed for the users.

01:29:53   Igloo gives you the flexibility to get your work done how you want to, where you want

01:29:57   to, and on whatever device you want to use.

01:30:00   Igloo is truly building a product meant for 2015, not 1997.

01:30:05   With an Igloo internet you can share news, organize your files, coordinate calendars

01:30:08   and manage projects all in one place.

01:30:11   everything can be social with comments and like buttons,

01:30:14   and anyone can add content based on their permissions,

01:30:17   of course, with drag and drop widgets and a WYSIWYG,

01:30:20   which is what you see is what you get.

01:30:21   Am I the only one who says WYSIWYG like that?

01:30:23   - You pronounce it slightly odd.

01:30:25   To me, it's WYSIWYG.

01:30:26   - WYSIWYG?

01:30:27   - Yeah. - Okay.

01:30:28   - It's also a cool whip.

01:30:30   - Oh, God, you're one of those?

01:30:32   The whoop. (laughs)

01:30:33   - It's a reference, Marco, just move along.

01:30:35   - Okay, well anyway, it's a WYSIWYG editor.

01:30:38   And Igloo makes use of responsive web design.

01:30:40   So all this stuff works on all your devices.

01:30:42   It looks great on all your devices.

01:30:44   And even, they have incredible technology here

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01:31:39   - So I'm out of stuff to talk about.

01:31:41   What else is going on?

01:31:43   - iPad Pro.

01:31:44   - Oh, no.

01:31:46   - Why are you sad about the iPad Pro?

01:31:48   - It's because it does nothing for me and thus on board,

01:31:52   just like the Mac Pro.

01:31:55   - It's not that it does nothing for you.

01:31:56   We talked about this before.

01:31:58   We should all be interested in the iPad Pro,

01:32:00   even if it's not like the specific iPad Pro,

01:32:03   I guess unless you don't buy into the whole idea

01:32:07   that tablet computing is part of the future of computing.

01:32:12   That's the premise I talked about

01:32:16   when we talked about the iPad Pro a long time ago.

01:32:18   It's basically the idea that people can deal with tablets

01:32:21   better than they can deal with PCs.

01:32:22   And I think we all agree on that.

01:32:23   Like if you just throw a random person in front of a PC

01:32:26   and ask them to do something useful

01:32:27   versus throwing any kind of tablet in their hand

01:32:30   and ask them to do something useful,

01:32:31   maybe unless it's a Microsoft Surface, sorry Microsoft,

01:32:33   that this tablet is less intimidating,

01:32:36   like that you can get things done,

01:32:38   that people can just poke their fingers on the screen

01:32:40   and figure out with either Android or iOS applications

01:32:43   how to do stuff from installing an application

01:32:47   to watching a video to even like sending a text message

01:32:51   or writing an email or whatever.

01:32:52   Whereas if you throw someone in front of a PC or a Mac

01:32:54   and say, send someone an email,

01:32:58   I mean, it's a higher barrier to entry.

01:33:00   So I really believe that that usability difference

01:33:04   in tablets versus PCs exists.

01:33:05   And I believe that a lot of people

01:33:07   can do everything they need to do on their phone,

01:33:10   for that matter, but also on the tablets.

01:33:12   And if you kind of buy into that,

01:33:13   then what you're doing in looking at the tablet space

01:33:15   is saying, will they ever be able to compete with the phone?

01:33:19   Maybe the answer is no.

01:33:21   But will they ever be able to replace more

01:33:24   of the things we do with PCs?

01:33:25   I think the answer there has to be yes,

01:33:26   because there's still just such a huge gap in friendliness

01:33:31   and reliability and usability

01:33:32   between personal computers and tablets.

01:33:35   So I'm always looking for

01:33:38   when we're gonna take the next step towards tablets

01:33:41   eating into a little bit more of the PC market.

01:33:43   And here, I guess Microsoft can come back in and say,

01:33:45   "Hey, we're over here with the service.

01:33:47   What do you think we're doing over here?"

01:33:48   But they're kind of doing it in a weird way

01:33:49   where they're making the tablet

01:33:52   have all the same abilities and compromises as the PC,

01:33:55   not all the same, but close to it, like,

01:33:57   hey, it can work as a PC and as a tablet.

01:34:00   I'm looking more towards,

01:34:01   can you make something that is like a tablet,

01:34:05   but allow you to do one or two of the things

01:34:08   that you could previously only do comfortably

01:34:10   on a personal computer?

01:34:13   And I think iOS 9 with the multitasking

01:34:15   is kind of creeping into that area,

01:34:16   but I think you also need a bigger screen

01:34:18   and you probably also need a stylus.

01:34:20   And that's basically the iPad Pro rumors, right?

01:34:23   A bigger screen iPad,

01:34:25   maybe with a little more computing grunt,

01:34:27   maybe possibly with an officially supported stylus.

01:34:30   Why does that make you sad, Casey?

01:34:31   You should be excited about the future of computing.

01:34:34   - I guess it does make me excited as an exercise

01:34:38   in trying to develop and discover the future,

01:34:42   but as something that I would want or use,

01:34:46   it doesn't strike me as something I would ever desire.

01:34:50   I don't even think I would want a full-size iPad anymore,

01:34:55   let alone one that's even larger than that.

01:34:57   Although, if you could strap a keyboard to it, maybe this is the answer to my computing

01:35:02   problems that we were talking about earlier.

01:35:05   But I don't know.

01:35:07   I have nothing against using the iPad as a means to get work done.

01:35:13   And obviously, we're all familiar with the ridiculous things that Federico Vittucci has

01:35:19   convinced his iPad to do, and all the ridiculous things he's able to accomplish with his iPad.

01:35:24   But for me, if I'm doing anything even marginally complex, I'm going to put my iPad down.

01:35:33   And I love my iPad.

01:35:35   I'm going to put my iPad down and I'm going to go reach for my Mac.

01:35:39   Because even if I could accomplish that thing, whatever the thing is, on the iPad, nine times

01:35:46   out of ten it is way faster and way easier to do on the Mac.

01:35:53   That's how I feel about using a desktop computer with a real screen compared to your 15 inch

01:35:57   little cramp thing.

01:35:58   Yeah, I can get it done on the laptop, but geez, I got to use a trackpad and a tiny cramp

01:36:02   keyboard and this tiny screen is way easier to use with a real mouse, full-size keyboard

01:36:07   and a gigantic screen in front.

01:36:08   But anyway, yes, yes, I see your point, but like it's not particularly for your use case.

01:36:12   But I always think like what use cases can the tablet pull from the Mac?

01:36:17   I think the tablet already has pulled web browsing.

01:36:21   I think it pretty much does that fine, especially with Flash going away, right?

01:36:25   And with the advent of content blockers, let's call them, on iOS or whatever.

01:36:30   I think web browsing is pretty solid.

01:36:33   The tablet said, "Hey, do you want to browse a bunch of web pages?"

01:36:36   Tablet's got you covered there, and it's probably better because you can sit in your comfortable

01:36:39   chair, you can pick it up and put it down like a magazine, it's good.

01:36:44   Reading Twitter and emails, yeah, you can probably use your phone for that as well.

01:36:48   Probably okay there.

01:36:50   emails now we're borderline because now you're like oh I got to type something

01:36:53   this is probably what you're thinking of Casey when you say oh it's so much easier

01:36:55   to do on a computer it's either for users multiple windows then forget it

01:36:58   obviously on a tablet or if you have to type anything of significant length I

01:37:02   wonder about the typing for the generation of kids brought up typing on

01:37:05   glass that it's not going to seem like such a big deal for them but in the end

01:37:08   I think that's still gonna be an issue but where I'm thinking of pulling is

01:37:12   once you can get something approaching multiple things going on in the screen I

01:37:16   don't know if Apple split screen thing is the answer with picture in picture in

01:37:19   the two slidey things like maybe that's not really the answer but these are

01:37:22   moving in that direction I'm thinking of graphics artists because if you think of

01:37:26   it as the world's most awesome Cintiq right where it's the whole thing you

01:37:30   don't even have a computer and you are basically like for art purposes having a

01:37:35   really good pressure sensitive stylus and multi-touch and a big screen and

01:37:40   enough power to do graphical stuff and not being tethered to a large computer

01:37:45   that you have to be near or whatever that is a device that you could say is

01:37:49   is the most efficient way for you to do fine arts related things.

01:37:54   Because it's a natural interface to drawing on the screen with a stylus or whatever.

01:38:01   And you could be moving things around and making fine adjustments and using multi-touch

01:38:05   gestures to zoom and rotate and do other stuff like that.

01:38:07   And there's not much text entry.

01:38:09   A lot of the stuff is using sliders and with the stylus, I don't know.

01:38:15   I don't know if we're at the point where it can pull from that, but I know a lot of digital

01:38:18   artists that spend most of their time messing around with their stylus and maybe they also

01:38:24   have one other hand on the keyboard doing all the keyboard shortcuts of Photoshop, so

01:38:27   maybe we're not quite there yet, but the first thing I think for professionals that it's

01:38:32   going to pull from are things like that where there's not a lot of typing, maybe even audio

01:38:35   editing where you can imagine multi-touching a stylus being a huge advantage over a mouse

01:38:42   and a keyboard, offsetting the detrimental effects of having less power obviously because

01:38:47   it's not gonna be a big hunkin CPU in your little tablet and having less

01:38:53   screen real estate because you're not gonna have a 27 inch tablet or whatever

01:38:56   but I am firmly in the camp that I want to see larger and more powerful tablets

01:39:00   to advance that form factor and I think it kind of gets us out of the tablet

01:39:06   doldrums where it's like everyone has decided that there's no point in an iPad

01:39:10   when you have your iPhone 6 Plus or your big phone like that the phone is just

01:39:15   you have to have your phone anyway and if I have to have my phone anyway I can

01:39:19   pretty much do everything that I could do on the iPad on the phone and so the

01:39:21   iPad is just a luxury for rich people so they can read their magazine their

01:39:24   glossy digital magazine articles and see bigger images and that's the only

01:39:27   purpose it serves and so everyone else has a phone a few rich people have a big

01:39:31   thing like the only way you're gonna differentiate and say what is the point

01:39:34   of the tablet is it show me something I can do in the tablet that I can't do on

01:39:37   my phone and you absolutely cannot do big graphical work on your phone you

01:39:42   You just can't, the screen is too small,

01:39:43   you don't have a stylus.

01:39:44   That's a way it could differentiate.

01:39:46   The other way it could differentiate is like the surface

01:39:48   where it's like, "Hey, it's actually your laptop too,

01:39:49   and you slap a keyboard on and it clamshells,

01:39:52   and it's weird and awkward because the heavy part is up."

01:39:53   And anyway, I think Apple's approaching that

01:39:58   from the other direction with the MacBook One

01:40:00   of saying we're just gonna keep making

01:40:01   the computer slow-mo slower.

01:40:03   But in the meantime, I really want an iPad Pro.

01:40:06   Apple should make one, but teachers should buy one,

01:40:09   and Graphicar should tell us whether Apple's

01:40:12   as yet unreleased, hypothetical, really awesome stylus

01:40:15   is actually all it's cracked up to be.

01:40:17   - Wait, so you want it for yourself

01:40:19   or you just want it to exist in the world for someone?

01:40:21   - I want it to exist.

01:40:22   I might buy one because I like the big iPads.

01:40:27   It depends on how big it is

01:40:28   'cause too big would be kind of ridiculous for me.

01:40:32   But yeah, I was attracted to the Kindle DX

01:40:34   to give you the kind of mindset I'm in.

01:40:36   - Yeah, 'cause I like to read magazines.

01:40:40   I still get paper magazines.

01:40:41   I still get Edge magazine and Car and Driver magazine.

01:40:44   I mean, Car and Driver and Edge at this point

01:40:46   are probably not much bigger than my iPad,

01:40:47   but Edge used to be really big.

01:40:49   I like something that big when I'm reading

01:40:50   sort of magazine-y style art girls,

01:40:52   even just looking at photos and stuff,

01:40:54   especially if it's thin and light.

01:40:56   That's what I like, and I think I would try it

01:40:58   with the stylus, like, I don't know,

01:40:59   maybe I would noodle around with something there.

01:41:01   It just seems like an obvious evolution of the product.

01:41:04   - Yeah, I mean, I think what's gonna be interesting is

01:41:08   I think Apple is at its best when it is a little threatened

01:41:12   and a little hungry and maybe a little bit desperate.

01:41:16   You know, that usually is when Apple does its best work.

01:41:20   And with a lot of iOS stuff, you know,

01:41:22   it's on top of the world with the iPhone.

01:41:24   And, you know, the iPhone is fine,

01:41:26   it's doing very well and they've all been pretty good.

01:41:30   But it seems like a lot of the decisions Apple makes

01:41:33   with the iPhone are out of complacency and or hubris recently and the Mac I can say the

01:41:39   same thing about but the iPad is kind of under attack. The iPad is being threatened and not

01:41:46   by competition but by apathy you know like everyone saying oh we don't know how long

01:41:52   the upgrade cycle is but the fact is if you're there was somebody else who made this I think

01:41:56   it was Lucas Mathis I have to look this up but you know the idea is like if you're relying

01:42:02   an upgrade cycle already for a product that only came out five years ago, that is a really

01:42:08   bad sign for your growth. That is suggesting that everybody who could use or want an iPad

01:42:15   already has one and that's really not a good place to be.

01:42:19   So what's going to be interesting here is that Apple is now getting desperate with the

01:42:24   iPad. They're going to start trying crazy things and that's why I think we're seeing

01:42:28   that's why I think we saw the mini a couple of years ago when that first came out and

01:42:30   And that's why I think we're seeing now that they're going to be making this big iPad Pro,

01:42:36   possibly with a stylus, possibly with God knows what else.

01:42:39   That's one of the reasons why the new cool keyboard cursor movement stuff in iOS 9, even

01:42:47   though we saw in Beta 1, it was enabled on the phone, and then in later Betas, it was

01:42:51   disabled on the phone, because they're going to probably keep it for iPad only, because

01:42:54   they're desperate.

01:42:55   They need to push people to buy bigger iPads.

01:42:58   of the reasons why they're not gonna allow split screen on any of the old ones, like

01:43:02   the Air 2, is to drive new sales of iPads. This is all gonna be, you know, part of it,

01:43:07   part of these, you know, a lot of those things like the split screen restriction, that's

01:43:10   also partly because of RAM, of course, but, you know, we're gonna start seeing these

01:43:15   moves of Apple trying to revive iPad sales by doing kind of desperate things. And that

01:43:22   isn't necessarily bad, you know. My theory is that that's actually good because we're

01:43:26   going to see them do things they wouldn't have otherwise done. Things like a big iPad,

01:43:31   things like a stylus maybe. Like we're going to see these things that like had the iPad

01:43:35   continued on its initial trajectory of getting really big and becoming as big as the iPhone

01:43:39   someday maybe, you know, had it continued on that path, I don't think they would have

01:43:43   been doing this kind of experimentation. I think they would have just kept doing what

01:43:46   they were doing, you know. And so we're going to see interesting things. That said though,

01:43:51   they're really going to be bumping up against limitations of not only the form factor but

01:43:56   of iOS. And those are both huge considerations for, you know, if you're looking at the iPad

01:44:02   as, quote, "getting work done," big thing is input methods, right? This has always been

01:44:07   the issue. I think if you're going through the trouble, which I see a lot of people do,

01:44:12   of attaching some kind of keyboard or keyboard case to an iPad, I think you could make a

01:44:18   very, very good argument that you should probably be using a laptop at that point. Like, you

01:44:24   you know, yes, you can do a lot of things on an iPad,

01:44:27   but it seems like so many people who end up doing,

01:44:30   quote, their work on an iPad, so many of them are

01:44:34   fighting the iPad to get it to do that.

01:44:36   They're kind of fighting what it is

01:44:38   or trying to make it something it's not,

01:44:40   or either out of desire or necessity,

01:44:43   you know, they have to do those things.

01:44:45   And that is, I don't know, to me,

01:44:48   there are lots of things the iPad is good for,

01:44:52   but general purpose work at a computer,

01:44:54   especially content creation work,

01:44:56   I don't think is one of those things.

01:44:57   I think you need a keyboard for a lot of stuff

01:45:01   that people do, and you need what computer

01:45:06   pointing devices do, which is very high precision

01:45:11   and fast pointing devices.

01:45:13   That's what track pads and mice

01:45:15   and even the little track points,

01:45:16   they all offer fast, highly precise cursor input.

01:45:20   And touch is not that.

01:45:22   - You don't think a stylus is precise?

01:45:23   - A stylus is, and we'll see how that actually works

01:45:27   in practice, 'cause like, you know, we've seen tablet PCs,

01:45:31   we've seen the Surface, we've seen devices that use

01:45:35   a stylus to control a desktop interface,

01:45:37   and at that point, it is like a Cintiq,

01:45:39   it is just basically, you know, moving a mouse cursor

01:45:41   with a pen on screen, that's fine.

01:45:43   That's not how iOS is gonna work, though.

01:45:45   iOS is gonna be the system designed for big, sloppy fingers,

01:45:49   And so the stylus will help in certain content creation

01:45:53   things like drawing and things like that,

01:45:55   but you still like, so often you need more precision

01:46:00   than, you know, you need the keyboard commands,

01:46:03   you need like the, I don't know.

01:46:05   - That's what I'm thinking about, the keyboard thing,

01:46:07   when you see people using a Cintiq or any other

01:46:09   kind of tablet type thing on a desktop,

01:46:12   very, very often you see one hand on the keyboard.

01:46:15   Like they have their setup so they can reach the keyboard,

01:46:17   do all the modifiers and stuff.

01:46:18   stuff and that I think is like kind of a vestige of the desktop age because it's

01:46:22   not as if you need a keyboard in fact it's very awkward to have the tablet and

01:46:26   also the keyboard because the keyboard is so wide but you only need to like get

01:46:30   at the modifiers and people make these special key setups so they only need

01:46:32   like one half of the keyboard like it's very awkward and the only way you're

01:46:36   going to get yourself out of that is to have a piece of hardware that is more

01:46:44   purpose-built to let you you know use your primary interface which is the

01:46:48   stylus. You still need all these modifiers and to do all those other things, but they don't have to be done through a keyboard, right?

01:46:53   If you had an application made for a fictional iPad Pro with a really good stylus and everything

01:46:59   that used

01:47:01   on-screen touch elements or gestures to do all the same things that modifiers do, it would take a while to, you know,

01:47:07   as we have decades of

01:47:09   graphics application on the Mac, like, "Oh, I always know hold down at the option means the shape is gonna go from the center, option shift

01:47:14   is it gonna constrain to a perfect square or circle?

01:47:17   Like all these things that we just know

01:47:18   from like decades of use of graphics applications.

01:47:21   We don't have that interface language

01:47:24   for tablet based applications yet, but we can develop it.

01:47:28   And I think if we do develop it,

01:47:29   a couple of generations from now,

01:47:31   people are gonna have the same kind of intuitive,

01:47:33   multi-hand gesture, like one hand is the stylist

01:47:37   and the other hand is doing all sorts of weird things

01:47:39   in the corner that would look just as alien to us today

01:47:42   I bet if a non designer saw an actual designer work in Photoshop or Illustrator with all with a tablet with all the shortcuts

01:47:49   They would be like, what are you typing?

01:47:50   What are you even doing there or even just like Final Cut Pro with all the colored keyboards with different keys?

01:47:54   You can it looks very strange to the the person that's not accustomed to it

01:48:00   I think that's that stranger

01:48:02   It makes me believe that you can make an equally strange and perhaps even more efficient interface that just uses

01:48:09   Two hands on a big giant touch screen one is holding a stylus

01:48:12   the other one is doing who knows what in whatever corner of the screen and that can actually be more efficient because the

01:48:17   Freeform nature of the things you can do with multiple fingers and multiple hands at a stylus on the screen

01:48:23   opens up much more natural gestures for doing graphical manipulations than

01:48:28   Knowing that if you hold down option and shift you get a perfect circle from the center

01:48:32   Right, like that makes sense in our minds only because they've been warped by decades of using desktop drawing applications

01:48:38   But I really want there to be a different language for doing

01:48:42   Creative things on a screen with the stylus and the only way we're gonna get that is by having hardware and people making software for

01:48:48   It and maybe it's not gonna be Adobe. Maybe it's not gonna be illustrator

01:48:51   Maybe it's gonna be companies like affinity or whatever that don't have a you know a history behind them

01:48:55   They just say oh well. I'm just gonna make a

01:48:57   iPad Pro native

01:48:59   Graphics environment not gonna make up my own conventions, and maybe the first three people do that make dumb conventions

01:49:04   But eventually everyone sort of hones in on

01:49:07   Things that they agree are efficient and useful to use and the old people who are used to illustrator never leave illustrator

01:49:13   They just retire and go off into the woods and the young kids who grew up

01:49:16   Doing everything on iPads and you can that's the one place to see iPads kids using them like crazy

01:49:21   kids who grew up with that we can try to tell them what modifiers to hold down to do all sorts of different things and

01:49:26   What key combos to press to switch the background and foreground and to do all these other things?

01:49:31   They're gonna be like well, isn't there some touchscreen thing I can use to do like it'll just say I'm unnatural to them

01:49:36   So I am very whatever the thing is where you're optimistic. That's bullish, right? Yeah. I'm very bullish about

01:49:43   the future of large tablets for

01:49:46   Using creative fields and the sooner we start making the mistakes that we have to make to figure out what works there the better

01:49:52   Yeah, see, I don't know. I'm a skeptic. I I think that you'll be retired. Don't worry

01:49:57   We're tablet. I think tablets have a serious input problem and a serious problem of ergonomics

01:50:04   while doing a lot of this kind of work.

01:50:06   And yes, there are lots of things where they are good,

01:50:10   but I don't see them ever even coming close

01:50:13   to the general purpose usefulness

01:50:16   of either a phone or a computer.

01:50:19   I think they give up too much on both ends.

01:50:22   They're not portable enough to replace

01:50:25   where we like our phones so much

01:50:27   because they're not always on our person.

01:50:29   Like our phones are always like with us.

01:50:31   They're always within reach.

01:50:32   They're usually in our pockets or our bags.

01:50:34   They're always with us.

01:50:36   Your tablet is not, just because it can't fit

01:50:39   in your pocket or many bags.

01:50:42   Your tablet is not always with you for most people.

01:50:45   Your computer is that same portability class.

01:50:48   Your computer is also not always with you,

01:50:50   but if you're gonna sit down and do a bunch of work,

01:50:53   most people can get way more work done on a computer

01:50:56   than they can on a tablet.

01:50:57   Not everybody, I know, but I think most people.

01:50:59   And what you're saying, Jon, it makes sense

01:51:02   that you're saying like, you know,

01:51:03   a lot of this is generational, you're right.

01:51:06   But I don't think all of it is.

01:51:07   I think there's certain realities of like,

01:51:09   well, this device doesn't have room for physical,

01:51:12   you know, keyboard and mouse and stuff,

01:51:14   or whatever the case may be, a trackpad.

01:51:15   - Well, I mean, even that, like, if you keep it,

01:51:17   if you keep spooling that out,

01:51:18   like, as you're trying to think of your things,

01:51:19   oh, you have to have a keyboard and stuff like that,

01:51:20   I start to think of more of a form factor

01:51:22   that looks like a 27-inch iMac laid down

01:51:25   like a drafting table with a keyboard in front of it.

01:51:27   - Right, and that's an ergonomic nightmare.

01:51:29   - Well, not really.

01:51:30   People work on drafting tables all the time.

01:51:31   Like it's a touch screen.

01:51:32   It's a touch screen with a stylus.

01:51:34   - Yeah, ask them about their neck and shoulder issues.

01:51:35   - Well, you could raise them up.

01:51:36   - It's not any more of an ergonomic nightmare

01:51:39   than sitting in front of computers are.

01:51:40   They all, you can have an ergonomic setup in either way.

01:51:43   The whole point is I'm saying like a touch screen,

01:51:45   that it is not completely vertical

01:51:46   so you don't get arm-streamed.

01:51:47   Like, before the computers existed,

01:51:50   people did drafting and architecture

01:51:52   on monks and scribes and stuff.

01:51:54   And yes, they had RSI issues then as well.

01:51:56   But I think we had more RSI issues with the computers

01:51:58   with the vertical screens and keyboards and mice.

01:52:00   Anyway, I think those things are all surmountable problems.

01:52:03   But what you have there is you don't have any compromises.

01:52:06   You have a really big screen,

01:52:08   you have precision input device,

01:52:10   you can have a mouse if you wanted,

01:52:11   you can have a stylus, you can have a keyboard,

01:52:13   but the primary interface is this big giant canvas

01:52:16   that you have in front of it

01:52:17   that you can use all five of your fingers on

01:52:18   and both of your hands.

01:52:19   And when you need to type, you can type on a keyboard.

01:52:21   When you need to do voice recognition, you can talk.

01:52:23   When you do video conferencing, the camera can see you.

01:52:25   When you need to use a mouse for something, you can,

01:52:27   although I'm not sure if you would.

01:52:29   When you need to use a stylus,

01:52:29   Like that's the end game where it's like,

01:52:31   this is the new, like it's the replacement for the PC.

01:52:34   Somehow we bridge the gap between here and there.

01:52:36   I don't think there's anything you can,

01:52:38   you can't do on that setup that you can do on a PC today,

01:52:41   because it would be, it would be plugged in,

01:52:43   you don't have power constraints, you could have like,

01:52:44   it's just, it basically is a new PC.

01:52:47   All it is is a different PC, right?

01:52:48   But you got there by coming from the tablet realm.

01:52:50   If you started out as something that was like a big phone,

01:52:53   and you just kept getting, creeping slowly and slowly

01:52:55   towards the things that a PC can do,

01:52:56   and you started pulling over more and more

01:52:58   until eventually nobody wanted to use a clunky old PC

01:53:00   and everyone wanted to use those things.

01:53:01   We're far from that now,

01:53:02   but I think that's the direction it has to go

01:53:04   for the reasons you said,

01:53:05   because the phone is always gonna be the phone

01:53:07   and the phones are already pretty big,

01:53:08   so it's like, don't even bother going in that direction.

01:53:10   What are you even gonna do there?

01:53:11   That was like the original iPad.

01:53:12   It was as simple as an iPhone

01:53:15   and as limited as an iPhone, but not an iPhone.

01:53:17   So like, that's a dead end.

01:53:19   Don't go in that direction.

01:53:20   You have to go in the other direction.

01:53:21   So turn your attention to PCs,

01:53:23   see all the things that they can do better,

01:53:25   and see if you can knock them down one by one.

01:53:27   and we really need to start that process.

01:53:29   Split screen is the most timid possible move

01:53:32   in that direction, but I think it's a good idea to be timid

01:53:36   because if you just go full Microsoft servers,

01:53:37   like, hey, here's the start menu, boom, like,

01:53:40   just all you're doing then is just abdicating.

01:53:43   You're saying, see, I can be like you,

01:53:44   now I'm a PC and I'm a tablet

01:53:46   and now you're kind of neither one.

01:53:48   You have to figure out how to absorb,

01:53:52   you have to become the preferred platform

01:53:54   people wanna do this thing on

01:53:55   without bringing over the PC baggage.

01:53:57   And that's really, really hard to do,

01:53:59   and it's gonna take a long time,

01:54:01   but let's start the process now.

01:54:04   And in the meantime, it's kind of lucky

01:54:06   that companies like Apple are doing it

01:54:09   because Apple can afford to noodle,

01:54:10   I mean, hell, they can afford to noodle around

01:54:12   with stupid Apple TV for years and years.

01:54:14   They can afford to noodle around with the iPad.

01:54:16   It has a lot of economies of scale

01:54:18   in terms of the CPUs, GPUs, the operating system.

01:54:21   Like it's not, that's the whole reason, you know,

01:54:23   they've been getting away with coasting so long.

01:54:24   It's like, well, we'll make an iPad version of everything too.

01:54:27   It's basically like an iPhone, a little bit different.

01:54:29   As they start to differentiate,

01:54:31   you have to invest in it more.

01:54:32   They can afford to do that.

01:54:33   On the other end of the spectrum,

01:54:34   and all these stories about the iPad,

01:54:36   has been like little tablets for kids to watch YouTube on.

01:54:40   $99 Android tablets that are basically

01:54:43   just like portable TV screens

01:54:45   you hold in your hands that have Wi-Fi.

01:54:46   That's fine too.

01:54:47   That market will continue to exist.

01:54:48   Apple's probably not interested in it,

01:54:50   but that I think it's worth mentioning.

01:54:53   You know, you can't go towards phones.

01:54:55   Apple should go towards PCs.

01:54:57   And then there's going to be a market

01:54:59   that I don't think Apple is interested in

01:55:01   for basically a really flat Wi-Fi connected TV screen

01:55:04   with a web browser.

01:55:06   That will also continue to exist and become so cheap

01:55:08   that, you know, our grandchildren will like,

01:55:10   they'll come in cereal boxes and seven inch OLED

01:55:13   roll up tablet thing that you can use

01:55:16   to watch future YouTube and play Plants vs Zombies 9000.

01:55:22   Apple better be well out of that area and it better have figured out a way to turn the

01:55:26   tablet into the next Mac by then because if it hasn't, it will surely be completely out

01:55:29   of the tablet market because Apple does not want to sell you $79 seven-inch tablet to

01:55:34   play Angry Birds on.

01:55:37   So before we finish this topic, I also want to mention the software.

01:55:41   I find the other thing I was thinking of earlier was it was indeed by Lucas Mathis.

01:55:45   I put the link in the show notes at ignorethecode.net and I think Gribble into it last week so most

01:55:50   of you probably saw it.

01:55:51   But the idea, the title is iPad, a consumption device after all.

01:55:56   And he goes through a lot of these challenges and including the upgrade thing.

01:56:00   But he also has this great section about iOS.

01:56:03   So iOS is itself a major limiting factor in the ability to quote get work done on an iPad

01:56:13   or an iPhone.

01:56:14   But I think it's more of a glaring issue on an iPad as you're looking at like different

01:56:19   ways that you want to expand this market as you want people to "get more work done"

01:56:23   on it. How does this work within iOS? And iOS is, you know, while it's doing things

01:56:28   like the window management, as you said, that is like kind of a baby step, there are still

01:56:33   so many issues much around things like file and document management and data sharing between

01:56:40   apps and everything. Like these things are still really either still too walled off and

01:56:46   too limited, or there is a procedure now, or like the extension system, like there is

01:56:52   now a solution to some of these things, but it is itself limited or cumbersome or unintuitive

01:56:58   or has other problems that makes it just harder to get a lot of kinds of work done on iOS

01:57:05   than it would be on a computer.

01:57:06   I haven't read this article, but rather than listing iOS, don't you think the App Store

01:57:10   specifically is a barrier to these things just as much as the OS?

01:57:14   Well that's a third thing. So not only do you have issues with what is even possible

01:57:20   to do on the OS, what limitations exist, what is really clunky. Like I was thinking earlier,

01:57:26   one of my ideal pet projects would be to replace Logic, the audio editing app that is designed

01:57:34   for making music and that many podcasters, myself included, use to edit podcasts even

01:57:38   though it is so painfully not made for that task and it never lets you forget that. And

01:57:44   It is not, it is probably not even the best tool

01:57:47   for even that job, but the fact is,

01:57:50   a lot of us use Logic, I would love to replace it.

01:57:52   And I was thinking, I think I could do it on an iPad.

01:57:55   I think I could make something that would do

01:57:58   what I need Logic to do, of editing podcasts,

01:58:00   I could make that on an iPad.

01:58:01   The hardware is definitely fast enough to do it now.

01:58:04   I know Core Audio very well, I know UIKit very well.

01:58:07   I could definitely make it on an iPad.

01:58:09   But then I started thinking, okay, well,

01:58:11   how do you get the files onto the iPad?

01:58:13   How do you get the source files of what you recorded

01:58:17   to the iPad to edit?

01:58:19   What document format do you save?

01:58:21   Where do you save that document?

01:58:23   When you're done with a document,

01:58:24   you wanna export it out.

01:58:25   Where do you put this?

01:58:26   Where do you put these files?

01:58:28   And there are answers to all those things.

01:58:31   But they're all so clunky.

01:58:33   Like the, yes, I could make it saved to Dropbox maybe,

01:58:37   but then everyone has to use Dropbox.

01:58:38   And then these files are really big sometimes

01:58:40   and you gotta blow all your Dropbox space on that.

01:58:42   and then you gotta deal with sync

01:58:43   and getting the files to and from it.

01:58:46   - iCloud Drive.

01:58:48   - Yeah, exactly, right.

01:58:49   - Click it up, yeah.

01:58:50   - So there's so many, the answers to those questions

01:58:53   are so often on iOS so cumbersome.

01:58:55   - You didn't think of how you were gonna make money

01:58:57   without being able to get upgrades.

01:58:59   - And that's step two.

01:59:00   So step two is suppose I actually could make

01:59:02   a good app like that.

01:59:04   This is a great use of an iPad physically

01:59:07   because this is the kind of task where

01:59:09   I do tons of scrolling, pinch to zoom to change the scroll scale, and tons of side to side

01:59:15   scrolling.

01:59:16   I could so easily make a great touch interface that would basically be a giant scroll view.

01:59:20   And you would use your finger to tap on regions that you wanted to move around and you could

01:59:24   move them around.

01:59:25   The interface to it would almost write itself.

01:59:28   It would be so much, it would be not only so straight forward for the kind of use I

01:59:32   have in mind, but it would be better than on the Mac.

01:59:36   it would be easier to do it on touch than it would be on the Mac. However, so suppose

01:59:41   I actually get a useful app but that also has all these hindrances brought on by the

01:59:48   OS and the data and file and document model of the OS, then I have to go sell it in the

01:59:55   App Store. Now, it is hard enough to make money on the iPhone. I think it's even harder

02:00:02   on the iPad for most kinds of apps. I mean, some kinds of apps do better on the iPad,

02:00:05   But the iPad market is so much smaller than the iPhone market.

02:00:10   And so many iPads are used in roles like what you were just saying, like the kid YouTube

02:00:15   thing.

02:00:16   I think a lot of iPads are used in roles where people aren't buying a lot of new apps, if

02:00:19   I had to take a guess.

02:00:20   Well, you'd have to price it like a pro app.

02:00:22   Like that's what I was getting at.

02:00:24   How many people edit podcasts?

02:00:26   Very few.

02:00:27   So you, I mean, that's the reason Logic is like 200 bucks.

02:00:29   It's a pro app.

02:00:30   You price it like a pro app, but then you're dead in the water after you sell the first

02:00:33   version because you're like, oh, now I have, like pro apps are sustained by having an initial

02:00:39   high price and then having upgrades.

02:00:42   And if you can't have upgrades and you have to buy a new, like then you're going to release

02:00:45   version two of your application as an entirely new app.

02:00:47   It's also for $200, but then the pro people want support.

02:00:50   Like I don't know how you sell pro apps in iOS, maybe enterprise apps where they don't

02:00:56   care that you just charge them again and again.

02:00:57   Maybe you make them free and have subscription recurring.

02:01:00   the business model for pro apps in iOS, forget about iPad,

02:01:04   in iOS period just doesn't seem to exist or work.

02:01:08   And Apple, does Apple have any pro level iOS applications?

02:01:12   - Well, that's the other thing.

02:01:13   So I don't think, I think upgrade pricing is a red herring.

02:01:17   I think upgrade pricing is not a major part of the problem.

02:01:20   Pricing is a major part of the problem in general,

02:01:23   but upgrade pricing I think is a really small part if any.

02:01:26   Because Apple has already shown that when,

02:01:29   What they're doing with their modern Pro apps

02:01:31   is they cut the prices from where they used to be.

02:01:34   Logic used to be hundreds, many hundreds of dollars,

02:01:36   now it's 200.

02:01:37   Final Cut used to be over 1,000,

02:01:38   now it's I think also 200 or 300, something like that.

02:01:42   Apple's model is simply,

02:01:45   we're gonna make the price lower up front

02:01:47   and then we're just not gonna have upgrade pricing

02:01:48   because we can't get ADQ's team to actually do it.

02:01:51   - But I don't think that's how most Pro apps work.

02:01:54   Like that's how Apple's Pro apps work,

02:01:55   but that's not how,

02:01:56   I mean Photoshop has gone to subscription,

02:01:57   which is one way to do it.

02:01:58   It's like sustainable recurring revenue office,

02:02:01   the same thing.

02:02:02   It's not really like a pro app,

02:02:03   but it's an enterprise type app.

02:02:05   - I would say these days it is a pro app,

02:02:06   but that's separate discussion.

02:02:08   - Well, things like Pro Tools are, you know,

02:02:10   I mean, Logic is the example 'cause it's an Apple scan,

02:02:12   but like are Avid, stuff like that.

02:02:15   They cost a lot of money

02:02:17   and a lot of them have upgrade pricing

02:02:19   and a lot of them have kind of like support expectations

02:02:22   where you're gonna do bug fixes up until this

02:02:25   and then you have to pay more to get the next major version.

02:02:26   Like maybe you can just come up

02:02:27   different business models related to it,

02:02:29   but it just seems difficult to me when your only option is

02:02:32   you either get everything that I give you for free

02:02:35   or you buy a whole new version.

02:02:36   And maybe upgrade pricing is the old model,

02:02:39   maybe Apple's right that the new model

02:02:40   should be just lower your price

02:02:41   and then make them pay that every year,

02:02:43   but then you're just creeping up on subscriptions

02:02:44   in a weird way.

02:02:45   It just, I don't know.

02:02:47   The point is that is an unknown.

02:02:49   That is going to stop people from,

02:02:52   the unknown, the uncertainty about it

02:02:56   is going to stop people from even trying to do that.

02:02:58   Whereas at least on the Mac,

02:03:01   there is an established history,

02:03:02   which may be kind of archaic,

02:03:04   but at least they know, well, this model kind of works

02:03:05   and I can kind of roll with it as it evolves.

02:03:07   But iOS, I don't think there is any obvious example

02:03:12   other than Apple's.

02:03:13   And in Apple's case,

02:03:13   you don't even know if they make money doing that.

02:03:15   Does Logic make money on its own for $200?

02:03:18   Did Aperture make money on any of its price points?

02:03:20   You really have no idea whether that is even profitable.

02:03:23   So if you're an independent software maker

02:03:24   considering making a pro app for iOS.

02:03:28   I don't know what examples you have to go off of to say,

02:03:30   if we do this in this kind of model,

02:03:32   we'll probably make money if it costs us this much

02:03:35   to make it and year after year,

02:03:36   we'll be able to sustain our business on it.

02:03:39   - Yeah, it's a serious problem.

02:03:41   I don't think I would tackle this problem.

02:03:45   Seeing the way the App Store is now,

02:03:48   especially on the iPad, where it seems like iPad economics

02:03:52   are even less healthy than iPhone economics,

02:03:55   just because of the market size difference.

02:03:57   I really don't know what Apple could do

02:04:02   to get really serious pro apps on the iPad

02:04:05   more than, for more than just the big companies

02:04:08   like Adobe and Microsoft that can do these little

02:04:11   offshoot versions or even good versions

02:04:13   and just roll it into a subscription.

02:04:15   But how you get something that's more narrowly targeted,

02:04:19   like you have Pixelmator on there,

02:04:22   It's like five bucks because they can't sell it

02:04:25   at more than that.

02:04:26   And we'll see how that goes.

02:04:30   - You remember there was Adobe Photoshop for iOS?

02:04:32   Remember that?

02:04:33   - Briefly, right?

02:04:34   - Right, but it was an application that you could download

02:04:37   from Adobe whose name I believe was actually Photoshop.

02:04:40   That's about where the similarity between actual Photoshop

02:04:42   and that ended.

02:04:43   It's kind of a chicken egg where no one wants to go first.

02:04:47   There's uncertainty or whatever.

02:04:48   Serendipity could help here.

02:04:51   Apple could introduce pro hardware with the stylus,

02:04:53   then some small naive developer could develop an application

02:04:58   that really catches on in the same way

02:04:59   that like VisiCalc did,

02:05:00   the old, the classic killer app or tractor app, right?

02:05:03   That it's just like, oh, you have to get an AppleTube

02:05:08   'cause you can run a VisiCalc

02:05:10   or you have to get a Mac

02:05:11   'cause you can do desktop publishing

02:05:12   with a page maker or whatever.

02:05:14   Like that just becomes the thing

02:05:16   that developer makes tons of money.

02:05:18   everybody buys the hardware to get the software

02:05:21   and buys the software because that's the software

02:05:22   you buy to do the thing and they're the first one to do it

02:05:25   and it's a breakout hit.

02:05:26   And hopefully that would let them work out

02:05:29   what the business model's gonna be,

02:05:31   riding on their giant success in time for other people

02:05:33   who are gonna be less successful to join in.

02:05:36   But without some huge breakout success,

02:05:38   and I don't even know what that would be,

02:05:39   like Photoshop was a breakout success,

02:05:41   Photoshop was a phenomenon.

02:05:43   People bought computers so you could have a thing

02:05:45   to run Photoshop on and they didn't care

02:05:46   what the computer was.

02:05:47   when Photoshop for the Mac was crappier behind,

02:05:49   they bought Windows computers to buy,

02:05:50   but I don't care, I need a machine to run Photoshop

02:05:52   because Photoshop is what I do for a living

02:05:54   and I need to use it.

02:05:56   Where is the VisiCalc, QuarkXPress,

02:06:00   PageMaker, Photoshop for the iPad Pro?

02:06:05   That could help sort of break the tie,

02:06:08   break the log jam here and get that platform moving forward,

02:06:11   but I don't think Apple should be counting on that

02:06:13   and certainly Apple doesn't seem to be doing anything

02:06:15   on its own to make its own pro-level software

02:06:17   and show that it can have a sustainable business

02:06:19   because you can never tell because they have so much money

02:06:22   that they can basically do things,

02:06:23   a lot of things like iWork, basically for free,

02:06:26   that other companies can't do.

02:06:27   But the first step is, I guess,

02:06:29   Apple has to make the hardware,

02:06:30   so at least we're going in the right direction, sort of.

02:06:33   If any of these rumors are to be believed,

02:06:34   which by the way, these are all rumors.

02:06:36   - Well, also, even the hardware is,

02:06:38   and even beyond my theories about input methods

02:06:41   and everything, there's even other problems

02:06:43   that are more boring in nature, but that are problems.

02:06:46   Things like, you know, there's no USB ports,

02:06:49   or, you know, network ports, or there's only one port

02:06:53   at the bottom to plug in anything in.

02:06:55   - There's no more room for any more ports, you know, Marco.

02:06:57   It has to be exactly that size.

02:06:59   - Yeah, well, yeah, you can always, yeah.

02:07:01   But the thing is, like, some of the philosophical

02:07:05   or physical decisions that Apple has made about no ports

02:07:08   or restricting expansion or whatever over the years,

02:07:10   that also restricts this kind of usefulness

02:07:13   for the pro use like this.

02:07:15   That is a problem.

02:07:17   There are a lot of potential things you could do

02:07:19   with iOS devices, but they don't have

02:07:23   some kind of hardware feature you need,

02:07:24   and there's no good way to add it.

02:07:27   What my Mac Mini does for the livestream,

02:07:30   you saw the crazy setups I've had in the past

02:07:32   to try to get iOS devices to do livestreaming,

02:07:35   and it was a huge pain.

02:07:36   The iOS devices had plenty of processing power

02:07:39   to do what I needed.

02:07:40   I didn't need a full-blown PC-type computer

02:07:43   to do these things, but it needed a computer with like,

02:07:46   you know, an audio interface and power that was reliable

02:07:49   and maybe an ethernet jack.

02:07:51   Like, there's always gonna be something like that

02:07:53   where there's so many possible uses

02:07:56   where iOS would be perfectly sufficient as an OS

02:07:59   and the hardware would be perfectly sufficient

02:08:01   like, you know, CPU power-wise, RAM-wise,

02:08:04   but there's something about the iOS device hardware,

02:08:07   like the rest of it, that is restricted in some way

02:08:10   or lacks some feature that could make this

02:08:12   kind of use case a lot better. And there's so many use cases where that's true. Like,

02:08:18   Apple has said no to so many things over the years. And most of that is what makes their

02:08:25   product so good for general consumer consumption, if that's not redundant. Like, what makes

02:08:32   the iPad and iPhone so good for browsing the web and reading Twitter and stuff like that

02:08:37   is its simplicity and these nice thin light devices

02:08:42   that last half of a day and you can browse a lot on them.

02:08:47   A lot of those things that they've said no to

02:08:49   are things that we actually did need for pro use.

02:08:52   That's the problem.

02:08:53   - Cool.

02:08:56   - All right, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

02:08:59   Fracture, Squarespace, and Igloo,

02:09:01   and we will see you next week.

02:09:03   (upbeat music)

02:09:05   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

02:09:10   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:09:13   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

02:09:16   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

02:09:20   'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

02:09:23   Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

02:09:26   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

02:09:31   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

02:09:36   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

02:09:40   So that's K-C-L-I-S-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

02:09:45   Anti-Marco-R-Men

02:09:47   S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

02:09:52   It's accidental

02:09:55   They didn't mean to

02:09:58   Accidental

02:10:00   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

02:10:04   - Casey's totally gonna get,

02:10:06   that's what you're gonna get instead of a mini or an iMac.

02:10:08   - Oh God. - iPad Pro.

02:10:09   It'll solve all your problems.

02:10:11   It'll stop you from playing with Node

02:10:12   because you won't be able to type anything.

02:10:14   (laughing)

02:10:15   - It's true.

02:10:16   I actually-- - You can't run Plex.

02:10:19   - Well, the client, but it's funny you bring that up

02:10:23   because a coworker,

02:10:25   I haven't seen him around the office in a long time

02:10:27   and I've been at a client site on and off for a long time,

02:10:29   But a coworker was offered a new machine and rather than getting, you know, the new standard

02:10:37   issue Dell or whatever, which by the way, if you want a good laugh, take a look at the

02:10:42   power brick for one of those Dells that's wide enough to have a numeric keypad on it.

02:10:48   The power brick alone is like half the size of my laptop.

02:10:51   It's unbelievable.

02:10:52   If you had described it in perfect detail, I wouldn't believe you that a power brick

02:10:57   is that big.

02:10:59   but I assure you it's that big.

02:11:00   Anyway, he chose, instead of getting one of those stupid Dells with the ridiculous power

02:11:05   bricks or presumably could have asked for a Mac, his work computer is going to be a

02:11:10   Surface, which to me struck me as the most insane, dumb thing I've ever heard in my life.

02:11:15   In no small part because for the next three years, he will be using a computer that has

02:11:20   eight gigs of RAM.

02:11:21   I can see the appeal of the Surface for people who already know how to use a PC.

02:11:25   If you're comfortable with a PC,

02:11:27   but you mostly just want a tablet,

02:11:28   except for those times you need a little bit of PC-ish,

02:11:30   that's what the Surface is for.

02:11:32   It still seems very awkward to me and weird,

02:11:35   but I see people using it in work too.

02:11:37   For a certain use case, it seems to be okay.

02:11:42   They don't care about the compromises

02:11:44   and they know what they're getting into.

02:11:47   It's like, I know how to use a PC laptop.

02:11:48   I'm not intimidated or put off by any of the complexities

02:11:51   that the Surface reveals about,

02:11:53   because it basically is a PC laptop,

02:11:55   But also a lot of times I just want to kind of a tab anything.

02:11:57   I don't want to be able to touch the screen.

02:11:58   All right, here you go.

02:11:59   Here's your Frankenstein monster.

02:12:01   It's done.

02:12:01   It's the same thing I described in it.

02:12:03   I think it was my first macro column.

02:12:04   I described something that was basically like a Mac book air

02:12:06   that could fold back on itself and become an iPad.

02:12:09   Only my idea was when it's an iPad mode, it's an iPad.

02:12:12   And when it's in Mac mode, it's a Mac.

02:12:14   And the two are only rated insofar as maybe they share

02:12:17   like iCloud drive together.

02:12:19   Otherwise it's just basically like,

02:12:20   hey, I don't have to bring two devices.

02:12:22   I can just bring one and it's basically two devices.

02:12:24   And you could do that today.

02:12:25   You could totally do that right now with current technology.

02:12:28   It would still be a Frankenstein product

02:12:29   that I don't think anybody would like.

02:12:30   But I was thinking about then, how do you cross this divide?

02:12:33   Sometimes people mostly just want to use a tablet.

02:12:36   And it would be like, I can see my email account

02:12:39   from either one.

02:12:39   I can see it in Apple Mail, or I can see it

02:12:41   in the iOS Mail application.

02:12:43   It's still the same mail.

02:12:44   It's not like I'm splitting my data,

02:12:45   like because so much of your data is in the cloud.

02:12:49   But then you're like, then you have to deal with a PC

02:12:51   when it's in PC mode.

02:12:52   and all the things that entails,

02:12:54   and you're not really making any progress,

02:12:55   all you're doing is let yourself carry

02:12:57   one cleverly hinged device

02:12:59   instead of one conventionally hinged device

02:13:01   and one unhinged device.

02:13:03   - Wow.

02:13:05   - And that's what the surface is,

02:13:06   one slightly cleverly hinged device

02:13:09   that's really awkward and difficult to use as a laptop.

02:13:12   - Yeah, yeah, basically.

02:13:13   I don't know.

02:13:14   All my developer friends who have used Windows 10

02:13:17   swear that it's the best thing ever.

02:13:20   I haven't barely touched it, but whatever.

02:13:22   If you like Windows PCs, you can get a window PC

02:13:25   and this other tablet thing all in one.

02:13:27   - Neat.

02:13:31   - Yeah, I still think the iPad Pro is just the MacBook One.

02:13:34   - I tend to agree with you.

02:13:36   - Can't touch the screen, give a MacBook One to a kid

02:13:38   and watch them put their little grubby paws

02:13:39   all over your screen, and they'll say,

02:13:40   "This is not an iPad, this is useless to me."

02:13:43   What is this blank square here

02:13:45   with no writing it on the bottom anyway?

02:13:46   I don't understand what that is at all.

02:13:48   And the screen doesn't work.

02:13:49   I touch it and nothing happens.

02:13:51   - Yeah, like if you want a computer that's like small,

02:13:54   ultra portable, slow, and hard to type on,

02:13:57   it's the MacBook One.

02:13:59   - Can't touch the screen.

02:14:00   Screens you can't touch are broken.

02:14:01   I, what did I do recently?

02:14:03   I'm pretty sure that I either pinched a zoom

02:14:06   or swiped something in Car and Driver when I was reading it.

02:14:09   - Nice.

02:14:10   - I do that all the time.

02:14:11   Like I had a recent one and I'm like,

02:14:13   I hadn't done it.

02:14:14   I had like a two month run where I hadn't tried

02:14:16   to move a piece of paper to scroll in.

02:14:19   Yeah.

02:14:19   The problem is a lot of the times

02:14:20   reading a magazine, I'm sitting in the same place as I would be reading

02:14:25   something on the iPad, only when it's a paper magazine you you can't zoom. I

02:14:29   think I tapped the link once too. Boy, people are dumb.

02:14:35   [BEEP]