130: Technical Countermeasures


00:00:00   I was working on something right before the show started and I paused for the show and

00:00:04   now I'm like in that annoying mode where I'm thinking about that thing I was working on

00:00:09   and not thinking about what I should be thinking about.

00:00:12   Now when you say pause…

00:00:15   Jason Seifer, everyone.

00:00:16   Yeah, I feel like we should all like kiss our fingers and plan up to the sky now or

00:00:20   something.

00:00:21   Oh, God.

00:00:22   Is this a reference I'm not getting?

00:00:26   Me and Casey, the reference getters, right Casey?

00:00:29   Yeah, totally. That's, among other things, you could call that a sportsball reference.

00:00:33   I couldn't even tell you which sport you're talking about.

00:00:36   No, it's every sport, Marco. Every single sport. And the Grammys, and the Oscars. Everything.

00:00:42   It's a reference to everything. It's a reference to life.

00:00:45   Yeah.

00:00:46   [Music]

00:00:48   A while back, this was easily two or three months ago, I was fiddling around and tried

00:00:54   to teach myself React, not React Native, just straight up React, and wrote a Showbot in

00:01:00   React. It is at Showbot hyphen R on the web, if you'd like to see it, probably die in

00:01:06   a terrible awful fire. But it is presently working, which is exciting.

00:01:10   Now, Jon, I assume you're going to have an opinion on the different placement and

00:01:15   coloring of the upvote arrows on the Showbot R compared to the regular Showbot.

00:01:21   was not correctly aligned, like along the center line of the page, so I had to close

00:01:25   the window.

00:01:26   Also, you know, if any web application framework should have an exclamation point at the end

00:01:32   of its name in the grand tradition of Yahoo, it's React.

00:01:36   Should be React!

00:01:38   So it's 165 lines that's including blank spaces, comments, etc.

00:01:45   On the React version, it is 180 on the straight jQuery version.

00:01:51   So I've saved 15 lines.

00:01:54   Woot woot.

00:01:55   That's worth rewriting the entire thing?

00:01:56   Yeah, totally.

00:01:57   I did teach myself React, and the funny thing is I'm looking at this code and I'm like,

00:02:00   "What the fuck is this stuff doing?"

00:02:02   I have no idea what's happening anymore, because it was like two months ago and I've not touched

00:02:05   it since.

00:02:06   Well, one of us has to play with new things on a regular basis.

00:02:09   That's certainly not going to be you two old farts.

00:02:11   Definitely not me.

00:02:12   John has a chance, maybe.

00:02:13   I do any chance I get new versions of pearl. Yeah, all sorts of new things

00:02:19   Exciting new versions of jQuery that leave ie8 behind. Oh, I didn't realize that was the thing now. It's a thing the best is like

00:02:26   you know, so it supports ie9 and above but even in ie9 you have to convince ie to

00:02:33   Pretend that it's a good browser by like forcing the you know

00:02:37   Like a meta tag for like a turn it makes your edge mode is enabled because like the first time I loaded up

00:02:41   What the, I thought this thing works in IE 9.

00:02:44   What is it complaining about?

00:02:45   Oh, I have to tell IE, don't be stupid.

00:02:49   Edge mode, please.

00:02:50   And then, okay, yeah, now all of a sudden, stupid.

00:02:53   Anyway, web, fun.

00:02:55   - Do I have to be testing in Edge?

00:02:57   Is it different enough that I need to care or not?

00:03:00   - No, it's like Edge mode in IE 9.

00:03:02   I'm not talking about the actual browser.

00:03:05   Like there's IE 9, there's IE 10,

00:03:06   I think there's even IE 11,

00:03:08   and then there's that, whatever the hell

00:03:09   that other thing is.

00:03:10   I just-- I really-- I fought a long time in--

00:03:16   I don't know if I fought.

00:03:17   But anyway, the path of my career has been--

00:03:21   IE used to be a thorn in our side,

00:03:22   but you just had to deal with it because everybody had it.

00:03:25   And eventually we came to this place

00:03:27   where we can develop-- do our web application development

00:03:31   for a set of modern browsers, and then only at the very, very

00:03:35   end see now what kind of disaster

00:03:37   is this in the various versions of IE that we support.

00:03:40   And then sort of like spackle over them and try to make it better with those used to be the reverse you had to make

00:03:44   It work in IE and everything and then you could see if there were some nice things you could do in the modern browsers now

00:03:48   develop everything against Chrome Firefox or Safari

00:03:52   Or I suppose even opera and then at the very end when you're done and you're happy with it

00:03:57   It's like all right now. Let me load it in IE and you just just grit your teeth. You just like oh

00:04:01   Is opera still do they switch to my kid? I think they still making their own render or is it all up kit now?

00:04:07   I don't remember. I remember that sounds vaguely familiar to me, but I have never had a job where I have had to support opera ever

00:04:14   No, nobody ever has

00:04:16   Maybe someone who people who work for the Opera, you know the company that makes the Opera website maybe

00:04:21   Maybe do you think even they use opera? Yeah, someone's got it. Oh, we're gonna we're gonna get so little email. Yep

00:04:30   Yep, but all three devout users that that that also happen to listen to this show are gonna be very upset

00:04:36   - Extremely.

00:04:37   - Good thing about that feedback.

00:04:38   Anyway, we should probably do some follow-up.

00:04:41   And we have some follow-up.

00:04:43   And I would blame this on Jon,

00:04:45   but this is not Jon's fault.

00:04:47   I have actually added a bit of follow-up.

00:04:49   And I'd like to start with a bit.

00:04:51   - At two, KC?

00:04:52   - Yeah, I know, I know, I'm sorry, Marco.

00:04:55   By the way, that's a reference to Shakespeare,

00:04:57   I believe, Julius Caesar.

00:04:58   - I don't think it's just Shakespeare.

00:04:59   I think it's Julius Caesar, like, period.

00:05:02   I think that's just like a thing that was most likely true

00:05:05   that he most likely said something to that effect possibly.

00:05:09   - Fine, fine.

00:05:10   Everyone's a critic, right?

00:05:11   So David S. wrote in and he wanted to tell us

00:05:14   that the TrackPoint mouse,

00:05:17   which we discussed a lot last episode,

00:05:19   has been scientifically proven, well, by IBM,

00:05:23   to be more accurate than a trackpad.

00:05:26   So David S. writes, "In the late '90s,

00:05:28   I worked at IBM's User Systems Ergonomics Research Group

00:05:31   for a short time.

00:05:32   The group did all sorts of user interface research,

00:05:34   including designing and testing new types of keyboards and pointing devices, but they're

00:05:38   also known for having invented the trackpoint.

00:05:40   So of course, as part of that development, they did lots of tests on the ergonomics of

00:05:42   the trackpoint.

00:05:44   The results are very interesting.

00:05:46   As I recall, people were both faster and more accurate when using a trackpoint compared

00:05:49   with a trackpad.

00:05:50   I believe the difference was small for people who were novices on both devices, but they

00:05:53   also found that people got much better with some experience on the trackpoint, and that

00:05:56   a week of experience made a big difference.

00:05:58   Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, because the accuracy differences were small for novices,

00:06:03   And because the TrackPoint interface was a little easier to figure out initially, people

00:06:06   actually tended to like the trackpads more at first, or for example, in using a computer

00:06:11   in the store.

00:06:12   And then he has provided a link to Microsoft of all places that has what appears to be

00:06:16   a scan of this research paper.

00:06:20   So apparently it has been scientifically proven that TrackPoints are better if you believe

00:06:25   IBM.

00:06:26   Well, also like IBM, the maker of TrackPoints, did one study that proved that TrackPoints

00:06:33   were slightly better than the trackpads of 1990s.

00:06:37   And that's like, trackpads when they first came out

00:06:39   really were terrible, and they really did get a lot better

00:06:42   in the early 2000s and throughout the 2000 to 2010 interval

00:06:46   like as mostly, let's be honest, as Apple made them better

00:06:49   because the PC industry's trackpads still usually,

00:06:52   as we said last time, really suck

00:06:54   compared to anything good and usable.

00:06:57   Modern trackpads are, with the exception of the Force Touch,

00:07:01   way, way, way better than what they were probably testing against. Whereas track points probably

00:07:06   have not really changed since then, because there just isn't that much to change about

00:07:09   them.

00:07:10   If they tested, like, a series of tasks where you have to involve typing and mouse cursor,

00:07:15   that's where the track point would really shine, because that's its biggest advantage,

00:07:17   especially for people who are good typists or touch typists, is that you don't have to

00:07:21   relocate. You can sort of keep your hands in the same position and have ready access

00:07:24   to cursor movement and clicking buttons and typing all at the same time. So you'd -- I

00:07:29   I assumed that they would do well there, but yeah, the trackpads of the 1990s were just

00:07:33   these little tiny things that, like, it was barely enough room to move your fingers, like,

00:07:36   an inch and a half by an inch and a half, like, very small, so you're trying to navigate

00:07:40   a screen.

00:07:41   The screens weren't that much smaller.

00:07:42   The screens were still like, 15-inch laptops existed.

00:07:45   Trying to move a cursor around a 15-inch screen by swiping your finger around a little plastic-y

00:07:50   2x2 square, not very fun.

00:07:53   But I would imagine that the trackpads would do it.

00:07:55   Anyway, everyone should use mice.

00:07:57   The end.

00:07:58   So you two beat the piss out of me because you say that it's scientifically proven that vinyl's better.

00:08:03   Here it is. I give you a scientific study that track points are better. And oh no, it's not good enough.

00:08:10   Well, I mean, this one study is done by the company that invented the track point.

00:08:14   So it's perhaps a little bit biased. And unlike vinyl and CDs, track pads have changed since the 1990s.

00:08:20   Vinyl? Not changed since 1990s. Only to perhaps get worse. And the knowledge of how to correctly master them gone away.

00:08:26   So that's the only thing that has happened to vinyl. CDs, the format is exactly the same,

00:08:30   the specs are exactly the same, nothing has changed related to CDs since the 1990s.

00:08:34   Screw you guys, I'm going home. That's a reference, by the way.

00:08:37   In other news, speaking of inferior pointing devices,

00:08:42   there are so many tap-to-click wizards in our audience, who knew?

00:08:46   So many self-proclaimed tap-to-click wizards.

00:08:48   Oh, here we go. Everything has a caveat.

00:08:51   Right, well no, I'm saying like they I believe that they they believe their self to tap to click wizards

00:08:57   Like the basically that they don't they don't perceive any impairment to using tap to click that is the way they prefer to do it

00:09:03   They are never frustrated by it is not a compromise that they're dealing with. They don't accidentally make any clicks

00:09:09   It's just you know, they're they are tapped to click wizards according to my definition of like, you know

00:09:15   We're saying I was saying that I'm not one because whenever I turn on tap to click I find myself inadvertently

00:09:21   Doing things I didn't intend to do and that pisses me off and it makes me turn that mode off

00:09:25   Right these people have to click wizards. No problem with it whatsoever

00:09:28   Does it mean they never make any kind of errors or do they make the errors? It doesn't bother them either way

00:09:33   they're basically tapped to click wizards because

00:09:35   It's the way they prefer to work it

00:09:37   None of them expressed any sort of caveats about like well

00:09:40   I used it all the time and it only annoys me a little bit. They were like, nope

00:09:43   I'm a wizard so I guess those guys can start a club

00:09:48   I demand to see proof and a scientific study. No, no, they are they they are tapped to look was

00:09:53   I just didn't think there were that many people who basically

00:09:56   Don't have any like there's no downsides for them for using that to like and it's probably people who like learned on it

00:10:02   You know who never who just like once they found out that was a mode and like the first you know

00:10:06   Day that they got their laptop turned it on and like that's how these are up top and that's how they've trained themselves to

00:10:11   To use it. They don't have any other habits that they're breaking right there

00:10:15   just this is the way they've built their habits.

00:10:17   Right, and maybe they actually just accept that a certain degree of unreliability is

00:10:23   just part of using a trackpad.

00:10:25   I'm willing to believe that a large part of them actually don't have accidental tap-to-clicks,

00:10:29   because that gets to the next feedback from ML, whose name consists of two capital letters

00:10:34   separated by a space.

00:10:36   I don't understand how you would accidentally click with tap-to-click.

00:10:39   If you put a finger down and leave it, then it's not a click.

00:10:41   If you put a finger down and lift it back up, then it is a click.

00:10:44   On last show we used the wrong terminology in terms of like how much force you apply, but that's basically you know

00:10:49   There's no force sensor. It's basically there wasn't back in the day

00:10:51   It's timing based and the reason I personally accidentally do clicks is all my habits around trackpad use

00:11:00   involve

00:11:02   Don't involve making sure that I don't accidentally touch the surface like briefly or brush against it with some other finger or whatever

00:11:10   That leads to the other trackpad setting that we didn't talk about last time

00:11:12   which is, what the hell is the phrasing of it?

00:11:14   Like, ignore unintentional,

00:11:18   it's been phrased different ways.

00:11:19   Ignore unintentional taps,

00:11:21   and that one is infuriating

00:11:22   because the trackpad is trying to figure out

00:11:25   what's an accident and what's not,

00:11:27   and it will go into this mode where it's like,

00:11:29   oh, I'm gonna ignore that 'cause it looks like an accident.

00:11:31   Then you try to do something legit and it ignores you,

00:11:33   and you become furious.

00:11:34   You're like, no, except my command, my finger is moving.

00:11:37   But anyway, all my habits were not designed around

00:11:41   the idea that I have to be cognizant of how long my finger is in contact with the trackpad

00:11:45   because if it is in contact with the trackpad too briefly, that counts as a click.

00:11:50   And so that's just not how my hands work.

00:11:52   And I have years of using trackpads without tap to click before I, you know, before tap

00:11:59   to click became even a thing probably, but certainly before I ever tried to turn it on.

00:12:03   So I'm accidentally hitting the trackpad because during the course of using a trackpad, my

00:12:07   briefly come in contact with the trackpad

00:12:09   in ways that register as clicks,

00:12:11   but I'm not intending to click at all.

00:12:12   It doesn't happen all the time,

00:12:13   but it happens enough that I find it infuriating.

00:12:16   - Right, because it's like if you need to do

00:12:18   a very, very small, fast cursor movement,

00:12:22   like if you need to move the mouse over

00:12:23   like one or two pixels on screen,

00:12:25   it is very easy for that to be misinterpreted,

00:12:28   because the way it differentiates

00:12:30   is not just how quick the tap is,

00:12:33   but how much it has moved during the touchdown time span.

00:12:37   because obviously if you mean to tap to click,

00:12:40   then it's going to be effectively unmoving,

00:12:44   but of course there's gonna be a very small amount

00:12:45   of movement a lot of times just 'cause of imprecisions

00:12:48   and the way people work.

00:12:49   So it has to determine in software the difference

00:12:53   between an intentional small quick movement of the cursor

00:12:57   and a tap to click.

00:12:59   And that is not a perfect science and it never will be.

00:13:02   There's always gonna be some little flex margin of error

00:13:04   where it's gonna get wrong sometimes.

00:13:07   And so if you're doing certain things

00:13:09   that require small fast cursor movements,

00:13:11   you will probably hit this problem more often

00:13:13   than if you're not doing that kind of movement.

00:13:15   - And they have no choice but to put that in.

00:13:17   They can't make you, they can't demand

00:13:19   that you precisely put your finger down

00:13:21   and precisely lift it up without moving it

00:13:22   because that would mean it would become very difficult

00:13:24   that they just have to build in that margin

00:13:26   to make it comfortable for people

00:13:27   to actually use tap to click.

00:13:29   But that same margin is what makes you

00:13:30   accidentally activate it.

00:13:31   And I think the reason, you know,

00:13:33   control freaks like me are so against tap to click,

00:13:36   because A, we have this error rate,

00:13:37   and B, the error rate is potentially very,

00:13:39   like we have dialog boxes with buttons in them.

00:13:43   The buttons are close to each other.

00:13:44   If you were to move the cursor over

00:13:46   from one button to the other, that's not very far,

00:13:48   and if it actually registers as a click

00:13:49   that did cancel or okay when you wanted to do the opposite,

00:13:51   that could be a data-destructive operation.

00:13:53   Like there's, not that you'd be hitting dialog buttons

00:13:56   with a mouse cursor anyway, but anyway.

00:13:59   A bad click in the wrong place at the wrong time,

00:14:01   Even if it's just accidentally having a bad click

00:14:04   that you didn't realize put the input focus into a window,

00:14:07   into the window that you didn't think you were typing in

00:14:09   and get one of those wrong window situations.

00:14:11   Like data loss, wrong window stuff,

00:14:14   I just, yeah, I don't like it.

00:14:15   - All right then.

00:14:17   - That's the final verdict.

00:14:18   I don't like it.

00:14:19   - All right, so what does Rich at the pond have to say?

00:14:24   - He was giving a defense of trackballs.

00:14:26   And the idea behind this is if you,

00:14:29   due to old age or if you have any other

00:14:31   sort of motor problems, sometimes it's difficult to,

00:14:34   I've seen people with this problem in real life,

00:14:37   to position the cursor over something

00:14:40   and click without moving the cursor again.

00:14:42   And when the button and the thing that moves are separate,

00:14:46   like they are in a trackball,

00:14:47   you move the ball, you're moving the cursor.

00:14:48   You take your hands totally off the ball,

00:14:49   then you can press the button at your leisure.

00:14:51   Usually the buttons are very large

00:14:52   and they are separate from the ball

00:14:53   and you can be sure that where you're clicking

00:14:54   is where the cursor is.

00:14:55   So it's better for people with motor impairments.

00:14:59   Trackpad is similar when they have the button on it,

00:15:00   but the physical button, that's gone now.

00:15:03   And now you move the cursor on the trackpad

00:15:06   to get where you want,

00:15:07   and then you can kind of take your hand off

00:15:08   and just go vertically down and click and be sure.

00:15:11   But anyway, a trackball with a separate button

00:15:13   and a separate ball does have that advantage.

00:15:15   - Let's see, oh, next, right.

00:15:18   So I'd asked at the end of the last episode,

00:15:21   or towards the end of the last episode,

00:15:22   "Hey, what's the deal with Apple Sim?"

00:15:24   And I had asked kind of,

00:15:26   without having done any research on it,

00:15:28   ♪ Back in the back door ♪

00:15:29   Lady Winzy, who is a retail employee, weighed in on this and also provided the official

00:15:34   link which we'll put in the show notes.

00:15:36   I'm a retail employee.

00:15:37   AT&T is the only carrier that locks the SIM.

00:15:41   Verizon opted out of Apple SIM in its entirety, and you can swap SIMs.

00:15:46   So if you're going to get Verizon service, you have a completely segregated Verizon SIM.

00:15:54   And then if you want to use the Apple SIM, you can use T-Mobile and I believe Sprint

00:15:58   in AT&T, but the moment you engage AT&T, that SIM gets locked.

00:16:03   So she continues, "When AT&T is selected as the carrier, a pop-up warns you, but you can

00:16:07   always purchase an additional Apple SIM for $5."

00:16:10   Which I didn't know, and that's really cool.

00:16:13   And additionally, "A Verizon SIM is free at her store anyway, you just have to ask for

00:16:18   it."

00:16:19   All of that was extremely useful information.

00:16:20   I was very glad that Lady Wednesday reported it.

00:16:23   And like we said, we'll put a link to the official documentation in the show notes about

00:16:27   this does this set a new record for the cheapest thing you can buy in an Apple

00:16:31   store that might be I was gonna say it's cheaper than iPod socks and the the $10

00:16:36   magsafe adapter I just bought another one of those actually although if we're

00:16:41   gonna go by volume or weight it may still be more expensive that's true

00:16:46   these things are well they're not heavy by any means but they're heck a lot

00:16:49   heavier than one of the micro nano whatever Sims I always get them

00:16:52   backwards can you fold the $5 bill to be smaller than a sim I don't think you

00:16:56   I don't think so. Not these new Sims at least.

00:16:58   But anyway, that was extremely useful feedback, and there were some other people that wrote in as well.

00:17:02   And so thank you to everyone who provided some of that information.

00:17:06   But it sounds like, you know, obviously the easiest answer, which I don't know why I didn't even think of this,

00:17:11   and Nathan A reminded me in the chat room, just use the same darn Sims. Like, why not just do that?

00:17:16   It just completely escaped me. But anyway,

00:17:18   but if I weren't to use my existing Sims, I can use, I can

00:17:23   I can potentially get two Apple SIMs, one for AT&T, one for T-Mobile, and then a Verizon

00:17:29   SIM as well for, it looks like, maybe five extra dollars, which is a pretty slick setup.

00:17:36   Moving on, we got some feedback about domestic carriers, one by Chris Niles.

00:17:42   He said, "As a genius, the number of iPhone users I see for cellular issues are mostly

00:17:47   sprint, then T-Mobile and Verizon, and last AT&T, meaning that AT&T was the best of all.

00:17:55   This is from three different markets, he said, the Bay Area, Seattle, and Denver.

00:17:59   And then we got some really long feedback from someone who I believe wanted to remain

00:18:02   anonymous.

00:18:03   Which one, the signal strength one?

00:18:05   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:06   One of the points that a lot of people brought up, we were asking how you get such a good

00:18:08   signal inside Moscone or whatever, is they have indoor antennas that are just for the

00:18:13   people inside the building.

00:18:14   And so you're competing with only the people inside the building instead of everybody out

00:18:17   in San Francisco and the antenna is really close to you.

00:18:21   And the person who sent us the email about spectrum and stuff had some tips for like

00:18:25   switching to 3G when everyone else is on 4G because sometimes you just can't get the attention

00:18:29   like you can receive the signal plenty strong in like a stadium or something but your send

00:18:33   signal is bombarded by, is interfering with everyone else's send signal so if you switch

00:18:37   to 3G you might actually have a better experience.

00:18:40   That was a good letter but it was also very long and probably doesn't really fit into

00:18:45   follow-up.

00:18:46   And the next section of the follow-up here is all people telling us about why carriers

00:18:54   might have changed the way you buy phones, as opposed to a subsidized phone model where

00:18:59   you pay a certain amount for a phone, the carrier pays Apple the rest of the price of

00:19:03   the phone, and then you pay a monthly fee to pay back the subsidy, and then some going

00:19:07   with the model where there is no subsidy and basically the price of the phone is spread

00:19:13   out over the course of your bills.

00:19:15   And so Benjamin Glickman's got the first theory here.

00:19:18   Well, does he have the first one?

00:19:19   I think someone else.

00:19:20   Maybe someone moved it.

00:19:22   The first theory-- oh, here it is.

00:19:23   Derek, yeah.

00:19:24   Derek Beachy, yeah.

00:19:26   Derek from Veristablium, right?

00:19:27   Yeah.

00:19:29   This is the big thing that we're missing

00:19:30   is that the upfront cost for a big fancy expensive phone

00:19:34   is $0.

00:19:36   That it's not like, oh, well, I used

00:19:38   to be able to get the top of the line iPhone for $200

00:19:42   and then a monthly fee.

00:19:43   and now I'm going to realize the full giant cost

00:19:46   of the iPhone is actually like 700 or $800.

00:19:49   It's now that the cost of the phone is $0

00:19:52   because they just take whatever the cost of the phone is,

00:19:53   divide it by 12 or 24 and then add that to your bill.

00:19:56   And so it seems like from the customer's perspective,

00:19:59   it has the advantage of being like,

00:20:00   "Oh, you know, every phone is a free phone now."

00:20:03   Even though you're paying the exact same money

00:20:05   or possibly more, it's just spread out

00:20:07   into your various bills.

00:20:09   There are a lot of theories that this will increase,

00:20:13   upgrade frequency because you get the same monthly payment.

00:20:16   And I mean, this kind of goes against what Marco was saying.

00:20:18   It was like, these thing where you spread out the cost

00:20:21   of the phone over multiple months will end.

00:20:23   And when it ends, you don't have to pay

00:20:25   for the phone anymore.

00:20:26   And so one side of this coin is,

00:20:27   oh, well then people will just keep upgrading their phone

00:20:29   as soon as the payment ends.

00:20:30   And the other side of the coin is what Marco was saying,

00:20:32   people will be like, oh, my bill decreased

00:20:33   and my phone is still good.

00:20:34   So why would I get a new phone?

00:20:36   So I don't know which one of those behaviors

00:20:37   is gonna win out when people start signing up

00:20:40   for these things.

00:20:41   Presumably the entire rest of the world knows

00:20:42   because as stated on the past show,

00:20:44   this is how a lot of the rest of the world

00:20:46   pays for the phones already.

00:20:48   But there are two sides to that coin.

00:20:49   - Yeah, it'll be interesting to see

00:20:52   whether more people now will choose

00:20:54   the bigger storage tiers based on this new pricing.

00:20:59   And if anything, this gives Apple even less of a reason

00:21:03   to drop the 16 gig because now it's even easier

00:21:06   for people to spend more money on the higher models.

00:21:08   (laughing)

00:21:11   That's roughly my opinion of that as well.

00:21:13   - Jeffrey says the new plans cost significantly more

00:21:15   for less, as in the carriers are going to charge you more

00:21:18   for the similar size plan and you either won't notice

00:21:21   or won't care because they'll be adding the phone price

00:21:23   into it and it'll just be all confusing.

00:21:25   - Yeah, it's like are the rates actually going down

00:21:28   without the subsidy?

00:21:29   If I buy my phone outright, just get it unlocked

00:21:31   or whatever and then own it outright,

00:21:33   am I actually gonna be paying a lower bill

00:21:35   after moving to this system?

00:21:37   I tried to find this out on AT&T's site

00:21:39   and it's very confusing and I couldn't figure it out.

00:21:41   But as far as I can tell,

00:21:42   I'm actually not gonna be paying any less money on the bill.

00:21:45   - You have to have a big spreadsheet and keep it up to date

00:21:48   because they change the numbers all the time.

00:21:49   You can get special deals

00:21:50   depending on where you're coming from.

00:21:51   You just have to keep redoing the math.

00:21:53   Like, has it ever been cheaper to buy an unlocked phone

00:21:55   and then pay a monthly fee?

00:21:57   Is it, you know, which is cheaper?

00:21:59   If they'd still done the subsidy

00:22:00   or if they just take the price of the phone

00:22:01   and divide it by 12 or 24 and add it to your bill,

00:22:03   what bill are they adding it to?

00:22:05   Is it the bill they're adding it to

00:22:06   bigger than it was before so the total comes out?

00:22:07   you just gotta do the math yourself.

00:22:09   At the bottom, here's the bottom line

00:22:10   with all this stuff in the US anyway.

00:22:12   What are you gonna do about it?

00:22:13   You got like two, three choices if you're lucky.

00:22:17   One of those choices is probably super crappy,

00:22:18   so really you've narrowed it down to two.

00:22:20   And like the amount of sort of unspoken collusion

00:22:24   in these industries and the huge barriers to entry mean

00:22:26   that there's very little connection

00:22:27   between the value of the service you're getting

00:22:29   and how much money you pay,

00:22:30   and so we're just, we're all screwed.

00:22:32   So like worrying about this is, it's almost academic.

00:22:37   Aaron E has another theory about this thing.

00:22:40   It was, he says it's primarily motivated by the FCC

00:22:43   that was pressuring cell phone companies

00:22:44   to get rid of their early termination fees

00:22:46   because they had really high fees

00:22:47   for like if you bail on your contract early.

00:22:49   And so the cell phone, this theory is

00:22:51   the cell phone company's way around this is,

00:22:52   all right, we won't have early termination fees anymore.

00:22:55   What we'll do is we'll give you a phone for $0

00:22:58   and we're essentially loaning you the rest of the money

00:23:00   for the phone that you will slowly pay back

00:23:01   over the course of your plan.

00:23:02   But if you bail early,

00:23:04   of course you have to give us back the money

00:23:05   we loaned you to buy your $800 phone.

00:23:08   So instead of an early termination fee,

00:23:09   it's like, oh, and by the way, you gotta pay us,

00:23:11   it's like a loan, and then you sort of exit the contract,

00:23:14   and it's like, well, you gotta pay back the loan

00:23:16   'cause you've been using the phone, you've got the phone.

00:23:18   So that's their way of getting around

00:23:19   the early termination fee while still making sure

00:23:21   that if you leave the plan early,

00:23:22   you gotta pay a whole bunch of money to them,

00:23:24   which motivates you to stay.

00:23:25   We have a bunch of links to various FCC complaints

00:23:29   and things related to this for the show notes.

00:23:32   - Our first sponsor this week is Fracture.

00:23:35   Go to fractureme.com and use promo code ATP15 for 15% off your first order.

00:23:43   Now Fracture prints photos in vivid color directly on glass.

00:23:48   We all have all these photos that we take these days with these awesome phone cameras

00:23:52   or my crazy new camera, whatever the case may be.

00:23:54   We all have lots of photos these days.

00:23:56   There's more photos than ever.

00:23:57   People are taking more photos than ever and that's really, really good.

00:23:59   The problem is that back in the old days you'd get photos printed and then you'd have this

00:24:04   this physical artifact and you could store it away somewhere,

00:24:07   you could display it, you could flip through,

00:24:09   you could show it, you could see it more often.

00:24:10   Nowadays, we have more pictures than ever,

00:24:13   but we look at them less than ever

00:24:16   because they're all just buried in our camera roll

00:24:18   or they're put on social things

00:24:19   and then they just kind of fall off the timeline,

00:24:21   we never see them again.

00:24:22   I think we really need to take advantage of things

00:24:24   that can take our pictures and show them back to us

00:24:27   or display them or let us share them with our loved ones

00:24:30   in a less fleeting way than just posting it

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00:24:34   So, Fracture lets you print photos.

00:24:37   And this is like the most modern kind of print

00:24:40   I've ever seen.

00:24:41   Photos that are printed on a glass surface.

00:24:44   So you have this nice thin lightweight piece of glass.

00:24:46   The ink is on the backside of it, but it's so thin

00:24:48   it looks like it's right on the surface.

00:24:50   And then there's like a thin layer of foam board

00:24:52   behind that so the foam board can then hook onto

00:24:55   a picture hanger or it can stand up on your desk

00:24:57   for the smaller sizes.

00:24:58   They have like a desk mount option

00:24:59   or like a desk stand option.

00:25:01   But for the most part, I get the big ones

00:25:02   and I hang them on little photo nails.

00:25:05   And they're huge and they're beautiful and they're light.

00:25:08   So it is like no stress to put this thing on your wall.

00:25:12   And they also have small ones too,

00:25:13   and the small ones are really affordable.

00:25:15   I actually, I have a number of the small ones as well.

00:25:18   They have small squares that start at five by five inches

00:25:21   for I think it's like 15 bucks.

00:25:22   It's really, really affordable.

00:25:24   Plus that's before our coupon code,

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00:25:29   And these things look fantastic.

00:25:31   They also make great gifts.

00:25:33   Go to fractureme.com, use promo code ATP15

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00:25:42   These are real vivid photos printed directly on glass.

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00:25:52   Fractureme.com, code ATP15.

00:25:55   Thanks a lot.

00:25:56   - I'm glad I kept forgetting to make the fracture

00:25:58   order I wanted to do.

00:25:59   I decided I'm gonna, since I don't have app icons

00:26:01   upon a wall like Marco, I figure I can put up the logos of all the podcasts that I've

00:26:05   been on or associated with in some substantial way, and to make fractures of all those in

00:26:10   line up, but I kept forgetting to do the others, and now I'll use our code.

00:26:13   Although I haven't decided what size I'm going to get.

00:26:15   What size are your icons?

00:26:16   >> If you have the little one that we made of us in the Mac World Studio, that's 5x5.

00:26:20   >> Yeah, I know, it looks kind of small in my wall, I don't know if I -- well, it depends

00:26:23   on how many icons there are.

00:26:25   I gathered up all the high-res artwork from all the people who are associated with the

00:26:28   shows who would have access to that. So I think I have, I can go a little bit bigger,

00:26:32   but I don't know. Yeah, it depends on like your viewing distance too, you know, where

00:26:34   you're putting them and everything. Yep. But yeah, it's, it's great. All right, moving

00:26:38   on. What's next? It's notebooked Xeons, which is something I could not possibly care less

00:26:45   about, but I know you too. Oh no, that's not true. You should care. Everyone should care

00:26:49   about this. All right, tell me why. Tell me why. Well, so the announcement is another

00:26:54   one of these Intel half announcements where they're like, they announced that they're

00:26:58   going to make Xeons with power specs so they can go in notebooks, but they don't have

00:27:03   all the details on them quite yet. Kind of like how they announced all the Skylake stuff,

00:27:06   but you have to wait for IDF for all the details. Anyway.

00:27:10   Intel is so good at half-assed announcements.

00:27:12   Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why they do that. But anyway, we'll find out when

00:27:15   we find out. But we know enough. I think we know enough to be kind of excited. And it's

00:27:20   kind of exciting to dumbwigs. We talked about it in the past. What is the difference between

00:27:23   a Xeon and the rest of the Intel chips? And there's things to be said about, well, like

00:27:27   more conservative and they're lagging behind the other things and maybe they give you the

00:27:32   ones that are, you know, that have fewer manufacturing defects or something like you can do this

00:27:38   hand wavy camera like these are the fancy expensive ones but the things that count are

00:27:42   they spec them out with way more PCI Express lanes which is why they can go in the MacPro

00:27:47   perhaps not for the Xeons in the notebooks but that remains to be seen and the second

00:27:52   big thing is that they have ECC RAM and can usually support more RAM and those two things

00:27:57   I think are super important.

00:27:59   In Apple's "pro laptops" you can get a pretty large amount of RAM.

00:28:04   Is it still just 16 or can you get 32 in the big one?

00:28:06   I forget.

00:28:07   I believe it's still 16, but I will double check.

00:28:08   That's correct.

00:28:09   Either way, by the standards of just a handful of years ago, a 16GB notebook is huge.

00:28:15   We keep putting more and more RAM in these things, and the error rates surrounding RAM,

00:28:21   maybe they're getting better, but probably not as fast as RAM capacity is increasing.

00:28:24   It's kind of like data integrity on the file system, where we keep getting bigger and bigger

00:28:29   disks, but the error rate for the things we're storing them on aren't getting that much better,

00:28:33   or not getting it better or faster, or in some cases might even be getting worse.

00:28:36   And so if we have all these bits and the error rate is one in a million bits or one in a

00:28:40   billion bits and we have like, you know, millions and millions and billions and billions of

00:28:43   bits, that means you've got errors there.

00:28:45   And so ECC RAM is RAM that checks for hardware faults that cause a bit to flip here and there,

00:28:53   it can fix some kinds of errors and at least report the other kind.

00:28:57   And that's one of the reasons I've always loved the Mac Pros, because they all come

00:29:01   with ECC RAM, which is more expensive, but I mean, again, maybe it's voodoo.

00:29:05   I think people have done some studies on this, on ECC RAM actually is a benefit, but it just

00:29:09   seems like the hardware cost of ECC RAM is not the big of a deal, but Intel has always

00:29:13   segmented its product line by saying, "Oh, only our fancy Pro chips get ECC."

00:29:18   And so if Intel is going to be stubborn and they're not going to bring ECC RAM down to

00:29:21   to their consumer chips, the next best thing is to say,

00:29:25   fine, we'll make notebook chips with the Xeon feature set.

00:29:28   So again, we don't know if they have more PCI express lanes.

00:29:31   We don't know if they're like the higher quality processors

00:29:34   or the ones with the, you know,

00:29:35   a more conservative manufacturing processor or whatever.

00:29:38   We do know they're gonna have ECC RAM

00:29:40   and they can support up to 64 gigs of RAM.

00:29:42   And who wouldn't want a 15 inch Mac Pro

00:29:46   with 64 gigs of ECC RAM?

00:29:48   That sounds like an awesome machine to me.

00:29:50   Finally, that sounds like, I mean, you know,

00:29:52   going back to the old 17 inch days,

00:29:53   that sounds like a truly pro MacBook Pro,

00:29:57   as opposed to just like, well, it's a MacBook,

00:29:59   but it's a little bit bigger and fancier,

00:30:00   especially now that they're all aluminum and everything.

00:30:02   So I have no idea if Apple will even use these things.

00:30:05   Oh, and the other thing they advertise

00:30:06   is that it's coming with Thunderbolt 3,

00:30:07   but so do the desktop ones.

00:30:09   It's just a question of whether they have Thunderbolt 3

00:30:11   integrated into the controller for it,

00:30:13   or is it just like you have to buy the controller chip

00:30:15   if you get the Xeons in their chipset?

00:30:17   But anyway, I don't know if Apple will use these.

00:30:20   I don't know if they're worth using,

00:30:21   this first generation of things,

00:30:22   but I like the idea of ECC RAM and more RAM capacity

00:30:27   come to Apple's Pro Notebook line.

00:30:29   So fingers crossed.

00:30:30   - Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens.

00:30:32   I mean, what they announced,

00:30:34   I believe it's only gonna be the Xeon E3 line,

00:30:37   and the E3s are even closer than usual Xeons.

00:30:42   They're even closer to the consumer line.

00:30:45   They don't have extra PCI Express lanes.

00:30:48   They do support ECC, as you said.

00:30:50   They do support the higher RAM counts on certain chipsets.

00:30:53   Our tipster in the chat room is basically on fire right now

00:30:57   because he's saying that you can get ECC

00:30:59   on the consumer chips as well.

00:31:00   I don't know about that.

00:31:01   We'll find out.

00:31:02   But the Xeon name on the E3 line doesn't mean much.

00:31:06   - Yeah, it's all marketing segmentation anyway.

00:31:09   But fine, if you wanna do this marketing segmentation,

00:31:11   I don't care what it's called.

00:31:12   All I want is a laptop with ECC RAM

00:31:14   because it's crazy to have 16 gigs of non-ECC RAM

00:31:17   in a supposedly pro thing.

00:31:18   And I think that the laptop should go up higher RAM.

00:31:21   I'm not saying Apple's gonna sell one with 64 gigs,

00:31:23   but maybe they could sell one with 32

00:31:25   with the super expensive top of the line.

00:31:26   Like I think people would buy that

00:31:27   because it's especially now that the laptop CPUs

00:31:30   are practically as fast and sometimes faster

00:31:32   and single threaded than some of the, you know,

00:31:34   supposed pro CPUs from years past.

00:31:37   That if you have a top of the line 15 inch laptop

00:31:40   and you can just put more RAM in it,

00:31:41   you could probably do some pretty amazing things

00:31:43   with that on the road.

00:31:44   So whether it's just a silly marketing thing

00:31:49   and whether the E3s are not all they're cracking up to be,

00:31:51   you don't get any extra PCI express lanes

00:31:53   and Thunderbolt 3 is available everywhere anyway

00:31:55   and you could just buy a different controller chip set

00:31:57   to get ECC RAM on the desktops.

00:31:58   The bottom line is Apple hasn't done that.

00:32:00   They continue to sell their laptops,

00:32:01   even their super top of the line ones without ECC RAM.

00:32:04   And maybe this will change that

00:32:05   because maybe they'll have a nice can solution from Intel

00:32:07   that won't require them to get some different extra chip

00:32:12   to make their RAM ECC.

00:32:13   On the other end, the Xeon line is always really holding back

00:32:18   what the Mac Pro can do with things like ports

00:32:21   and chipsets and everything else,

00:32:22   because the Mac Pro uses the higher class of Xeons,

00:32:25   the E5 series, and with the extra PCI lanes

00:32:29   and a couple other things,

00:32:30   and those tend to lie behind in chipsets.

00:32:32   I don't know, do the E3s use more consumer-y chipsets?

00:32:37   Because it always holds back the Mac Pro

00:32:39   with things like how soon it can support Thunderbolt

00:32:42   or USB 3, or whatever new port specs come around.

00:32:47   The Mac Pro is always the last thing to get that support

00:32:49   because Intel's Xeon chipsets that support the Xeon CPUs

00:32:54   at that level, they just lag so far behind

00:32:56   the consumer stuff.

00:32:57   - And they don't need to because they're gonna go

00:32:59   in servers and no one needs Thunderbolt 3 ports

00:33:02   on a rack server somewhere, you know?

00:33:04   - Exactly, and so why would Apple want to tie another one

00:33:08   of their product lines to the delayed chipset

00:33:13   and platform support of the Intel Xeon line?

00:33:15   - Well, you know, if it's the same as PCI Express,

00:33:19   this doesn't make a difference there,

00:33:20   but I think the ECC RAM is the thing.

00:33:22   The ADB tipster says that you could get ECC

00:33:24   on the desktop things, but not on mobile,

00:33:25   so this is a first for Intel,

00:33:27   or a first in recent history that you can get

00:33:31   laptop chip from Intel with the ECC RAM support.

00:33:34   I just think it's, like Data Integrator,

00:33:36   it's like, it should be everywhere.

00:33:37   It should be, all RAM should be ECC RAM.

00:33:40   If it was spread across the entire industry,

00:33:42   the small additional cost of making the actual RAM chips

00:33:45   support ECC and all the controllers and everything,

00:33:47   doesn't seem like that big a deal to me.

00:33:49   And I think it's like, it's literally the least we can do

00:33:52   as we add a ridiculous number of bits

00:33:55   to all of our machines and the RAM category

00:34:00   that we're just not, we're just like,

00:34:02   well, I'm sure it'll be fine.

00:34:03   I'm sure every single one of the bazillion bits

00:34:05   that we send through this thing

00:34:06   always come back exactly as we did it. And a couple small one-bit errors here and there.

00:34:10   You can get kernel packs, you can get corrupted data, you can get everything. Like, if you

00:34:13   can't trust your RAM, what can you trust? Not your file system. Yeah, forget that. Is

00:34:19   this really going to trickle down to anything that I'm going to buy anytime soon? No, you

00:34:24   just got a new laptop. Well, no, Work got a new laptop. I didn't. I have, I would say,

00:34:29   what do you think the actual odds of Apple using any of these chips at all ever in any

00:34:33   of its products. Like I think even that is maybe 50/50. I think low. I'm gonna give it 50/50 because

00:34:38   I hold out hope that someone is like, "You know what? We could sell a laptop for way more money

00:34:43   than we do now if we just position one as like the suit." But that's what they used to do with

00:34:46   the 17-inch. It was like, it's like, "Well, this is barely a laptop, but certain people need it,

00:34:51   so we're gonna charge them an arm and a leg and here you go." There should be one of those,

00:34:55   shouldn't there? Just like the Mac Pro? Yeah, 4K screen. Sure. Why not? 21-inch laptop, go.

00:35:01   PowerBook G5, we are ready finally.

00:35:04   - Liquid cooling.

00:35:05   - Oh God.

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00:37:53   have to pay at first. You can go get a trial, see for yourself if you like it. Go to backblaze.com/ATP.

00:37:59   Thanks a lot. So I have an announcement to make. ATP is now numbers. We've now bought

00:38:06   all numbers. Apple would sue us for that name. You've got to think of it. I know you have

00:38:09   difficulty with the names. I'm not surprised you came up with numbers. Integers. We are

00:38:14   buying all the integers. Oh my goodness. Yeah, we couldn't get integers.com or the integer

00:38:17   Twitter handle so we're just gonna go with the integer with it with a lowercase L inside

00:38:21   of the I.

00:38:22   Where we're going in the clouds it doesn't matter whether we can't get the Twitter handle.

00:38:26   We'll just buy Twitter and we'll make it integer number 45.

00:38:29   This is getting bad quickly.

00:38:30   So to summarize this news, I don't know if it's even possible, it just sounds so stupid

00:38:34   when you say it out loud, Google decided to rename itself Alphabet and then make and then

00:38:43   divide up its businesses, divide up all the things that Google did before.

00:38:46   Some of the things that Google did before are going to be under a new subsidiary of

00:38:51   Alphabet called Google, and that's going to be like search and Android and web ads and

00:38:57   I don't know what the heck goes under that.

00:38:59   And then a bunch of the other stuff that Google does is going to go under someplace else?

00:39:05   Just directly under Alphabet?

00:39:06   I forget, but anyway, it's not under Google anymore.

00:39:07   It will be all that stuff they do with self-driving cars and giant balloons with Wi-Fi access

00:39:14   points on them and biomedical stuff and contact lenses that check your glucose level and Google

00:39:19   does a lot of weird stuff like a lot of sort of R&D type stuff and so this is this is a

00:39:23   reorganization under a new name Alphabet that is just that is saying like within alphabet

00:39:29   which is still the company the same company that Google was they're dividing up their

00:39:32   businesses in different bins the super confusing part is that their stock symbol will still

00:39:36   be G O O G on whatever that is NASDAQ or whatever like their stock symbols will still look like

00:39:40   Goog or Google or whatever, but the name of the company will be Alphabet and Google will

00:39:45   just be a subsidiary, a wholly owned subsidiary of Alphabet. Larry and Sergey, I don't know

00:39:50   how to pronounce his name, are staying in charge of everything, but now they're in charge

00:39:55   of Alphabet and they appointed a new CEO of the Google part of Alphabet. It's not the

00:40:00   same guy who did Google+, right?

00:40:01   >> No, it's Sundar Pichai, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, and the guy who did Google+

00:40:07   left, right? Wasn't that…

00:40:08   Yeah, I can't keep track of the drama involved in this, but…

00:40:12   Anyway, he left. And so Sundar, from what I understand, everyone likes Sundar a lot.

00:40:19   Yeah, he's good. I think I've seen him in presentations. He always seems like he's

00:40:23   a good presenter anyway. I have no idea. Nothing about him except seeing him on stage at I/O,

00:40:28   I think. Yeah. So, I don't know. I mean, to me, you

00:40:31   look at this move, and first of all, it's odd, and it's kind of like Head in the Clouds

00:40:38   kind of spacey, new age, Larry Sergey type stuff.

00:40:42   - Is it spacey?

00:40:44   Is the name spacey?

00:40:45   'Cause I think the actual move,

00:40:46   despite being super confusing,

00:40:48   is less head in the clouds-y

00:40:50   because it's finally recognizing

00:40:51   that this company called Google does two kinds of things.

00:40:56   Crazy things like self-driving cars

00:40:58   and hot air balloons and all that stuff,

00:41:01   like just maybe they're good ideas,

00:41:02   maybe there'll be dead ends,

00:41:03   like kind of free-wheeling research,

00:41:07   you never know what's gonna hit or whatever.

00:41:09   And then very solid, predictable,

00:41:11   same business that Google's been doing forever

00:41:13   with the web ads and the search and all that other stuff.

00:41:15   And having them both under the umbrella of the same company,

00:41:19   that I think is more kind of hippy dippy,

00:41:21   head in the clouds, like we're just like a company,

00:41:24   we're just like we have a campus and you play volleyball

00:41:26   and we give you free food.

00:41:27   And some people try to figure out how to monetize web ads

00:41:30   and other people are trying to figure out

00:41:32   how to save the world one whatever at a time.

00:41:34   And we're all in the same family.

00:41:36   It's like, how would you feel if your job was doing analytics

00:41:39   on like keyword search, return on investment,

00:41:42   and someone else's job was like self-driving cars

00:41:46   or something?

00:41:47   Is that really the same company you're

00:41:49   recruiting for that company just the same way across the board?

00:41:51   So I think it is a little bit more concrete

00:41:54   and a little bit more down to earth to say,

00:41:56   we really need to divvy this stuff up

00:41:58   so it's clear who's working for what and what the goals are.

00:42:02   And then Google can be Google.

00:42:03   And then everything else can be its own thing.

00:42:06   and we don't have to mix them together.

00:42:08   I don't know all the financial implications,

00:42:09   like does it help them with reporting,

00:42:10   does it help them with hiding profits and losses

00:42:13   and making themselves look better,

00:42:14   and not having the crazy, it's like Alphabet

00:42:16   or whatever they, I wish I knew.

00:42:19   I read all these press releases

00:42:20   and I've already forgotten 'cause it was too long ago.

00:42:22   It was only a couple days, but.

00:42:24   Is all the new research and stuff

00:42:25   under just plain old Alphabet

00:42:26   or do they make another subcompany?

00:42:28   I think it's just under Alphabet.

00:42:29   - And there's X, there's like the X Labs, whatever.

00:42:32   - Yeah, but those things are basically cost centers.

00:42:35   And those don't look good on Google's balance sheet, right?

00:42:38   So if you can get them off into another subsidiary,

00:42:40   then you can kind of do more hand-wavy stuff.

00:42:42   - Well, yeah, 'cause what's interesting is

00:42:44   they didn't spin out things like YouTube or Android

00:42:47   out of the new division called Google.

00:42:50   - That fits with Google, don't you think?

00:42:52   YouTube is a fairly concrete, established thing.

00:42:55   It is not like glucose-sensing contact lenses.

00:42:59   - But so is Nest, and Nest is spun out.

00:43:02   - Yeah, but Nest is still kind of like,

00:43:04   Can you make money selling nerds a really expensive smoke alarm that goes

00:43:09   off at the wrong time? You know to me whenever you see a company like like

00:43:14   Google which which has they have a spotty record of BS and their

00:43:20   statements let's say that I mean it's not they're not they're not totally

00:43:23   awful but they're not perfect either and Apple does a lot of their own BS - I'm

00:43:27   not trying to be all like you know weird about it here but this is the kind of

00:43:31   thing that it's worth sniffing around to see, is there a cynical take on this that is plausible

00:43:38   for why else they might have done it? And because there's so much floaty language here

00:43:44   and the cynical take is, what you said, is it sure looks like they're moving a lot of

00:43:50   cost centers out of Google and leaving Google, the thing that is named Google, now as a more

00:43:58   focused and most likely more profitable kind of entity.

00:44:01   That's not cynical.

00:44:02   Isn't that just good business?

00:44:04   Isn't that kind of like not letting the two things like, they're just, it just seemed

00:44:08   very different culturally and what their goals are and what their priorities should be and

00:44:12   combining them into one thing just like confuses like they're separable enough because it's

00:44:17   not like, oh, we should spin off MacPaint and MacWrite into Claris.

00:44:21   Sorry to use old references for the young people listening.

00:44:24   Because that will let them, like that was a core competency of Apple.

00:44:27   that need to be spun out, but like hot air balloons, man?

00:44:30   Like that's not the same company, right?

00:44:33   So I think it's one of the things

00:44:35   that I've always admired about Google

00:44:37   is that they're willing to do all of these things.

00:44:39   Like people ding them for it.

00:44:40   It's like, what are you doing out there

00:44:41   trying to make these self-driving cars?

00:44:43   Like, if not them, then who, right?

00:44:45   You either have a bunch of smart people

00:44:46   that have a lot of money.

00:44:47   I'm glad they're trying to do these things.

00:44:49   And I think those projects will be given

00:44:52   kind of more air to breathe and be under less pressure

00:44:55   in a separate company.

00:44:56   And yes, the flip side of that is the other part

00:44:59   of the company will probably look more focused.

00:45:03   It's not like it looks more focused to investors.

00:45:05   You're still buying the stock in the big overall company.

00:45:07   I just think it's just better organizationally.

00:45:11   So I'm not like, I don't think there's any real

00:45:14   actual cynical interpretation of this

00:45:16   except for the one that I heard

00:45:17   which sounds like total BS to me is like

00:45:19   that Sundar was gonna leave and they were like,

00:45:20   oh, we better make them CEOs.

00:45:22   It just totally does not pass the smell test for me at all.

00:45:26   but this is gonna be like the stupidest reason ever

00:45:28   to reorganize this big giant company.

00:45:29   But everything else about it seems straightforward

00:45:33   and a reasonable thing to do.

00:45:35   I just really don't like the name, but I don't know.

00:45:37   Marco, what do you think?

00:45:39   - I mean, I'm with you for the most part.

00:45:41   Believe me, if there was an obvious cynical take on this,

00:45:45   I would be the one to make it,

00:45:47   and I don't think there is a clear one.

00:45:50   I mean, there is possibly the looking better

00:45:52   on the investment type of divisional stuff

00:45:55   that we don't know enough about to really talk about.

00:45:57   There is possible issues with taxation

00:45:59   that a lot of people have pointed out

00:46:01   that this might be like a tax dodge.

00:46:02   I think those are definitely gonna be benefits of it.

00:46:06   They probably were not the cause of it,

00:46:09   and they were probably not the driving thing

00:46:11   that drove this decision with them.

00:46:13   I think this actually is mostly about what they say it is.

00:46:18   I think this is actually something

00:46:20   that they're saying honestly,

00:46:23   'cause you're right, it does make sense

00:46:24   organizationally to separate out these really,

00:46:27   really disparate things into their own divisions.

00:46:31   Things that have nothing to do with what else

00:46:33   the company is doing or have very little to do

00:46:35   with what else the company is doing.

00:46:37   It does make sense to separate those out.

00:46:39   That being said, this is all still Google.

00:46:43   It's putting a new name on it will have some

00:46:48   like PR distancing benefits to it,

00:46:51   kind of like the joke that is intellectual ventures

00:46:54   doing things through LOD-SYS.

00:46:56   You know, this is a thing that is created

00:47:00   to imply that there is artificial distance

00:47:04   or disconnection that isn't really there.

00:47:07   So this is really still the same people running it.

00:47:09   It's still the same company.

00:47:11   It's all, right now it's even installed

00:47:13   in the same buildings and everything

00:47:14   that are all labeled Google.

00:47:15   So this stuff is all still Google stuff.

00:47:18   So Nest was spun off from Google.

00:47:20   If you weren't comfortable with Google owning Nest

00:47:24   and having the data from your house

00:47:25   about your Nest thermostats,

00:47:27   if you weren't comfortable at that before,

00:47:29   you shouldn't be comfortable about it now either

00:47:31   because it's the same thing.

00:47:33   Like, it's all the same people,

00:47:34   so it's important to keep the perspective on this

00:47:38   that it's not like how AT&T was forced to split up

00:47:41   and they had to make actually separate companies.

00:47:44   This is like, no, this is still all the same people

00:47:48   all are working together, really.

00:47:51   They're just different divisions, but this is all still what we know as Google.

00:47:55   Maybe that's the one cynical take I heard.

00:47:57   I think it was from Horace Diddoo, or someone related to his conversation, maybe a commenter,

00:48:02   was basically like, "Google makes the money and sends it over to Alphabet, and Alphabet

00:48:09   takes the money from the Google part and feeds it back into Google data that it collects

00:48:14   from whatever crazy things it's doing, like scanning the entire Earth or every book in

00:48:19   existence or whatever.

00:48:20   So it's an exchange of money and data.

00:48:22   So it's all entirely, all in the family.

00:48:26   There's no wall being built between these two things.

00:48:28   It's just like, now we're getting to be free to have different reporting chains, different

00:48:32   cultures, different priorities in our meetings.

00:48:36   I imagine they can concentrate on what they're doing and not worry so much about what the

00:48:40   Google side of things are doing.

00:48:41   It becomes more like they can pretend within this little universe, the little Googleverse,

00:48:46   they can pretend they're two separate companies that communicate with each other like two

00:48:50   separate companies would, even though they really are the same company and they both

00:48:53   have the same boss who can just tell them what to do if they really want to.

00:48:55   But at this point in Google's history, I think the two founders still are exerting kind of

00:49:00   like personalized idiosyncratic control over the company that they founded.

00:49:07   They don't need any money.

00:49:08   They care about money only insofar as--

00:49:11   as far as I can tell--

00:49:12   only insofar as it helps them achieve whatever goals

00:49:14   they're trying to achieve.

00:49:15   So I am even more inclined not to believe

00:49:19   that it's some kind of clever financial maneuvering,

00:49:21   because really they just want, why

00:49:24   aren't we making better progress on our research projects?

00:49:26   And why is Google--

00:49:33   the Google proper distracted by all these researchy type

00:49:35   things?

00:49:36   really reorganized so both groups can better achieve their goals because that's what they

00:49:41   want to do as the founders of the company. I really don't think they're motivated, but

00:49:45   we could become even more rich. I mean, they're not Larry Ellison, right?

00:49:49   Hmm. Fair enough. It's funny. I was sitting here thinking to myself, "What are the different

00:49:56   stops on the journey from a dictatorial CEO that kind of does whatever and doesn't care

00:50:03   what anyone thinks, perhaps maybe like Jeff Bezos, Bezos, whatever, and somebody who just

00:50:09   toes the company line like probably every Hewlett-Packard CEO that's ever been. And

00:50:15   I feel like Larry and Sergey are no Jeff Bezos, but certainly closer to that side of the spectrum

00:50:23   than someone who just, you know, tries to get shareholders as much money as they possibly

00:50:29   can. And this seems to me like you guys are just saying, you know, let's try to reorganize

00:50:35   the company in a way that makes a little bit of sense, and let's try to remove any shackles,

00:50:40   perceived or real, that prevent us from doing this change the world kind of stuff that we

00:50:45   really want to be doing.

00:50:46   Yeah, and I think the line is, like, if you feel ownership of the company, if you were

00:50:52   one of the founders of the company, or at least were there super early, you feel like

00:50:56   have a right to just do whatever you want with the company. And investors be damned,

00:51:01   Wall Street be damned, obviously to some degree or another. A lot of times founders don't

00:51:05   have full control over the company, they lose control and so someone else, you know. But

00:51:09   if you're one of the early people, you're like, "This is my company, I do what I want

00:51:12   with it." But if the company has been around for hundreds and hundreds of years and you

00:51:15   are like the 17th CEO, it's harder to feel like you have the, that you should just be

00:51:22   like, "You know what? What do I want Google to be? I'm the CEO." Because the CEO in most

00:51:26   companies that have been around that long is beholden to a board of directors and they

00:51:29   don't have the control and they didn't put everybody on the board so they really aren't

00:51:32   in charge or whatever but as founders and founders who are wise and very carefully managed

00:51:38   to retain majority control over the company they founded they feel like this is my toy

00:51:42   this is my plaything I'm gonna do what I want with it and I think that's a great way to

00:51:45   run a company I hate the other way where they run a company where you're like the CEO is

00:51:50   like a steward for two or three years and whatever happens the company doesn't matter

00:51:54   as long as they get their golden parachute and their bonus and they go out and someone

00:51:57   else comes in and it's like completely rudderless, no actual leadership, short-term thinking,

00:52:05   but companies that are huge and have huge revenues and huge impact on all the people

00:52:09   around them and the people who buy their stuff and that's the worst.

00:52:12   So I fully endorse this modern style of ambitious, very strange, unconstrained, biconventional

00:52:22   thinking leadership of companies, even if in the end it ends up doing in some or all

00:52:27   these companies in the long term.

00:52:30   Apple so far I think is the only one that's in the second phase because its founder leader

00:52:35   is gone now and leadership has been passed over.

00:52:38   Does Tim Cook feel the same kind of ownership over Apple as Steve Jobs did?

00:52:41   Maybe not, but I think he's still doing the same kind of things.

00:52:44   What is Tim Cook like?

00:52:45   You know, the environment, human rights, diversity.

00:52:51   All those things that Steve Jobs was not,

00:52:53   Steve Jobs was not steering Apple in that direction,

00:52:57   at least not to the degree that Tim Cook is.

00:52:59   And so Tim Cook has put his stamp on Apple.

00:53:01   I feel like he is not embarrassed to do that,

00:53:05   or doesn't feel like it's not his right.

00:53:06   Maybe it's because he was there with Steve the whole time.

00:53:08   Anyway, we'll all be dead by the time Apple finally

00:53:12   is on its 17th CEO,

00:53:13   and that will probably be just a big mess.

00:53:15   But for now, Apple is still doing well in this area.

00:53:18   And I think this move by Google, aside from the name,

00:53:20   Marco, that's what I was asking before,

00:53:22   aside from this name, which I think is really terrible,

00:53:24   this move makes sense to me.

00:53:26   - It is an exceptionally bad name.

00:53:28   - You should call it the alphabet, right, Marco?

00:53:31   (laughing)

00:53:33   - Wow, yeah, that wouldn't have helped either.

00:53:35   - But like, who will ever say the word alphabet?

00:53:38   'Cause like I said, even the stock symbol is goo.

00:53:39   We're just gonna, like,

00:53:40   I think we should all agree on the show,

00:53:42   not that we're like trying to be contrary

00:53:44   or being stubborn or whatever,

00:53:45   but I'm just gonna keep saying Google.

00:53:48   And I think most people are gonna keep,

00:53:49   even when we're talking about the self-driving cars,

00:53:51   it can be like Google self-driving cars.

00:53:52   Are people gonna say Alphabet self-driving cars?

00:53:55   I don't know if Google is really committed to,

00:53:57   or if it could even,

00:53:59   do the kind of rebranding necessary to turn,

00:54:02   God, I don't know this chain, but it was like,

00:54:04   AT&T, Atlantic Bell, like, you know,

00:54:09   you ever see the diagram of like chain of names

00:54:11   after AT&T was broken up, that eventually, you know,

00:54:14   we have these different other names

00:54:15   and they recombine into the monster that is Verizon

00:54:18   and the new AT&T and, yeah.

00:54:21   Anyway, that kind of rebranding usually only happens

00:54:24   when the previous name is so incredibly hated

00:54:26   that the value of it is zero or negative.

00:54:28   So you make up a new word and people are like,

00:54:31   well, I hated Bell Atlantic, but this Verizon company,

00:54:35   I've never heard of this.

00:54:36   Maybe they're better, I can't, I don't know.

00:54:37   - Singular is terrible.

00:54:39   - Yeah, but AT&T is pretty good, yeah, anyway.

00:54:41   - Do you know, I've heard some wonderful things

00:54:43   about Xfinity.

00:54:44   - Oh no, that's where people see the chain.

00:54:47   I guess people see the chain entirely.

00:54:49   But anyway, Google is a name that people like

00:54:51   that has positive value, that is a very strong brand,

00:54:54   and I don't see Alphabet ever eclipsing that.

00:54:57   And so I hope people just won't actually use that name

00:54:59   except in like official documentation

00:55:02   and like actual press releases

00:55:04   and people who have to be journalists.

00:55:05   But casually speaking, until it seems incorrect

00:55:10   based on common usage,

00:55:11   I'm just gonna keep saying Google for the whole thing.

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00:58:07   with just the right sink, just the right bounce.

00:58:09   Casper.com/atp, code ATP at checkout.

00:58:12   Thanks a lot.

00:58:13   All right, so Marco you wrote a perhaps contentious,

00:58:18   but probably not really contentious post about ad blocking.

00:58:21   Would you like to tell us why you're such a jerk

00:58:23   and why you hate anyone who writes for the web?

00:58:26   - So this was interesting.

00:58:28   I wrote a post basically defending

00:58:30   modern day JavaScript blocking,

00:58:33   which will of course rule out many ads and many trackers.

00:58:36   I was actually really afraid to publish it

00:58:39   because I have so often published something

00:58:42   and had it blow up in a way I didn't really expect or want,

00:58:47   and really regretted it afterwards.

00:58:49   And this, in which I, as a fairly prominent voice

00:58:54   in some circles, am advocating basically

00:58:57   for many modern ad and tracking blockers,

00:59:00   I thought, knowing as many people as I do in publishing,

00:59:03   this could be a problem.

00:59:05   And so I showed it to a bunch of friends ahead of time.

00:59:08   - It was like five hours ahead of time.

00:59:10   By the time I saw your link to like,

00:59:12   "Okay, take a look at this, it was already posted for real."

00:59:14   So I'd say, "More lead time next time."

00:59:18   - Fair enough, I actually got direct feedback

00:59:20   from a few friends who read it faster than you did.

00:59:23   - I didn't see the link until much later.

00:59:26   - Well, whose fault is that?

00:59:28   - I am a Slack completionist in most of my channels,

00:59:31   so I did read it, but I should look at

00:59:33   what this time stamps are.

00:59:34   Anyway, it wasn't that long.

00:59:35   But yes, you did solicit.

00:59:36   I'm not a web publisher, so I can't give you

00:59:38   the feedback you're looking for anyway.

00:59:39   Or just tell you to pick different words.

00:59:41   - Right, right, right, so yeah, anyway.

00:59:44   So I actually really did kind of sanity check it

00:59:46   with some friends ahead of time

00:59:48   because I was afraid to say this.

00:59:51   And so the gist of my article here,

00:59:54   it's called The Ethics of Modern Web Ad Blocking,

00:59:57   and this is a lot of stuff that we actually talked about

01:00:00   on the show here in the past.

01:00:01   We have to be very careful with the web

01:00:03   because if you just follow a link,

01:00:06   then your browser will just load that page

01:00:08   and everything on it without giving you a chance

01:00:11   to kind of say, "Oh, you know what, no thanks.

01:00:13   "I don't agree with everything this page is trying to do."

01:00:16   You know, like, when you follow a link

01:00:18   that somebody sends you or that you,

01:00:20   or if you find in a search or whatever,

01:00:23   you load all the trackers, all the ads,

01:00:25   all the code that page wants you to execute,

01:00:27   you just load it and run it in your browser.

01:00:29   Like, that's just how modern browsers work.

01:00:31   All the collection of your data they're doing,

01:00:34   you know, if you find something on the page offensive

01:00:37   or if it's tracking you between multiple sites

01:00:39   through cross-site trackers like ad networks

01:00:41   and Google Analytics and stuff like that,

01:00:43   you're giving all that data up

01:00:45   without really being asked first.

01:00:47   Like they take the data and then you can maybe go

01:00:49   and try to disable it later.

01:00:51   (laughs)

01:00:52   And that whole model has been so abused

01:00:56   by web publishers and advertisers

01:00:57   and scammy and legitimate companies alike.

01:01:00   It has been so abused that now,

01:01:02   like everything you do on the web

01:01:04   is watched like a hawk tracked. You have massive privacy violations happening

01:01:09   constantly like and this this came to a head a few weeks ago. There was, you

01:01:14   know, not only the safaris, you know, I think, but then, like there was a people

01:01:17   calling out the verge for their and the verge calling out mobile web for sucking

01:01:22   and everyone's like well look at your page. It's full of like fifteen thousand

01:01:25   trackers and eight megs of javascript and all this stuff and and grouper

01:01:29   called out. I'm or for you know because they have great writers, but they have

01:01:32   a site that's full of these really crappy ads a lot of the time. And then Renee Ritchie

01:01:35   from IMAW wrote this post explaining about how basically how bad ad networks are and

01:01:39   how they kind of don't have much control over the matter. And so there was all this discussion

01:01:44   around this, but really what it comes down to is I think now in the same way that pop-up

01:01:50   ads got so crazy in the early 2000s that pop-up blockers became basically required usage and

01:01:58   then became integrated into the browsers themselves and turned on by default. My argument is that

01:02:04   now JavaScript tracking and, you know, cross-site tracking and some of the ads, but it's honestly

01:02:13   more problematic with the tracking, have gotten so bad and so abused that it is now time to

01:02:20   take technical countermeasures to reduce or eliminate that tracking if you don't want

01:02:26   it the same way that we took technical countermeasures to block pop-up ads 15 years ago. And I really

01:02:33   thought this was going to be, as I said, I thought this was going to be very controversial.

01:02:36   I thought a lot of people who were in publishing, which includes a lot of my friends, would

01:02:40   really be offended that I'm suggesting ad blocking, basically. And it wasn't. The guys

01:02:47   from the All were really upset with me, but I don't really know them and I don't really

01:02:52   care. That's it. Nobody else was. Like, I thought there would be a huge divide.

01:02:59   That's why I said, like, I was a little afraid to publish it. Instead, I've

01:03:04   gotten hundreds and hundreds of responses on links and just hundreds of

01:03:10   people telling me, "Yes, finally. Yes, I agree. That's exactly right." Including

01:03:16   many of my friends who are publishers, including many publishers I am not

01:03:19   friends with, maybe I am now, we'll see, I was shocked at how positive and supportive

01:03:28   and how much in agreement the reaction to this was. I mean, I can go on my blog and

01:03:33   I can post my name is Marco Arment and I will get more disagreement on that than I will

01:03:40   from this article. Like, it is crazy how much people will argue with me over anything else

01:03:44   I ever say, and this that I thought was going to be incredibly controversial, it turns out

01:03:50   a lot of people think this, and even publishers know, because like, you know, and I said,

01:03:55   you know, it's not like publishers are like evil, you know, devil corporations, like publishing

01:03:59   is hard. It's, as I learned when I tried to do the magazine, and as I've seen like with

01:04:02   my other efforts with, you know, ad supported media and trying to do stuff online that makes

01:04:08   money, it's hard. And especially if you have to have a staff, then your costs are way higher

01:04:13   than individuals like me or John Gruber publishing on our own sites. Like, having a staff is

01:04:18   incredibly expensive and so it is very, very hard for publishers to make enough money to

01:04:22   stay afloat. And we see so many publishers shutting down or downsizing. It is incredibly

01:04:28   difficult to make it work. And so they have been, you know, kind of forced, some of them

01:04:35   have been forced by financial situations, some of them have just been greed. But they've

01:04:39   They've been, whatever the cause, publishers,

01:04:42   many of whom are well-meaning, have been quote forced

01:04:46   to adopt really terrible ads

01:04:49   and integrate really terrible tracking.

01:04:51   And there's, of course, this whole obsession

01:04:53   between lots of people about metrics

01:04:55   and tracking everything everybody ever does on a webpage

01:04:58   or on media or in an app.

01:05:00   And apps are a whole separate discussion.

01:05:01   We'll get to that, I'm sure, in the future.

01:05:03   But there's all this tracking going on

01:05:07   and all this abuse from ads,

01:05:09   and publishers often just say,

01:05:12   and like Renee said this,

01:05:13   often they'll get a report of some ad being bad

01:05:16   or inappropriate or over the line in some way,

01:05:19   and they have to go,

01:05:20   well, they have to go to the ad network

01:05:21   that's certain to them and try to report it,

01:05:23   and that's often very hard.

01:05:24   And you're just inserting code on your page

01:05:27   that will call to an ad network

01:05:29   and just have them run arbitrary code

01:05:31   that some advertiser entered in some system somewhere

01:05:33   on all your viewers' computers.

01:05:36   And so you as the publisher really don't have a lot of control over that.

01:05:40   The ad network barely has control over that and they have even less incentive to care.

01:05:45   And so you have this terrible situation where like there's really nobody kind of policing

01:05:52   the store in a way that will be effective.

01:05:55   And so you have to do it as the user yourself.

01:05:57   You have to adopt technical countermeasures.

01:06:01   you know, I had my term. It's like you have to start considering installing ad blockers

01:06:07   or tracking blockers like I mentioned. I use ghostery. I know there are others. Please

01:06:11   stop telling me about the others. I'm happy with ghostery. It's fine. I think I think

01:06:19   now is the time to do that and what's what's extra frustrating is that a lot of the problems

01:06:25   with this, a lot of the problems that have led to this are things that are inherent to

01:06:30   the way web browsers work, like the way how they request things, how cross domain requests

01:06:36   work, how cross domain cookies work, how JavaScript includes work and what they have access to.

01:06:42   And over the last twenty years that this kind of stuff has been possible and has developed,

01:06:49   web browser manufacturers and standards committees have added all these capabilities to the web

01:06:56   that add new things web pages can do and new ways. Now the new thing is to make web pages,

01:07:05   to give them more of the abilities that were previously exclusive only to apps and to sort

01:07:09   of make web pages more app-like. But meanwhile, the core problems that enable all this terrible

01:07:16   tracking and privacy invasion and horribly slow JavaScript and everything, those have

01:07:21   not been addressed very well by the web development and standards communities. And so like, you

01:07:28   know, like, why have they not addressed that? Why have they, I don't know, like...

01:07:33   - The recent years, like, you're right up until maybe like a year or two years or three

01:07:37   years ago when browser vendors, especially the, you know, Chrome and sort of the leading

01:07:43   edge modern browsers, really started turning the screws on things that are, they're mostly

01:07:49   security focus but they end up affecting advertising.

01:07:54   Anything related to cross-site scripting, the doors have been slamming down on things

01:07:59   related to accessing DOM elements and other frames or accessing anything happening in

01:08:04   JavaScript that was served from a different domain.

01:08:08   And it's kind of a pain in the butt if you're doing web development, especially if you own

01:08:12   a fleet of your own domains, they're all something.foo.com and you want them to all cooperate.

01:08:17   That used to be easy because that just worked normally, but then they started pulling things

01:08:20   down.

01:08:21   It's like, "Oh, I got to add cross origin request headers to everything," and the wildcarding

01:08:26   is crappy.

01:08:27   You can't do star.foo.com.

01:08:28   You got to either do star or the exact domain names, and if the domain names don't match

01:08:31   up, maybe something will work, but you can't get your JavaScript stack traces.

01:08:35   And it's like, that is, like I said, it's mostly security related.

01:08:39   You're like, "Oh, that's not related to advertising."

01:08:41   Advertisers can still do what they want because they make you serve it through your own proxy

01:08:43   or do something else that gets around all this stuff.

01:08:46   But it does end up limiting the privacy-invading things you can do.

01:08:49   In the bad old days, once JavaScript got on your page, you could read all your cookies,

01:08:53   you could read things in other frames, even an embedded iframe, and now the restrictions

01:08:57   are much greater than they were before.

01:08:59   So I think that is, like you talk about technical countermeasures, the most important countermeasures

01:09:04   is what you mentioned before, like the platforms and the browser vendors.

01:09:10   They have much more power than individual nerdy users because we are few and the grand

01:09:16   in the grand scheme of things, not that important.

01:09:18   But as soon as, you know, popups,

01:09:20   everyone hated popups and popunders and all that stuff.

01:09:23   Browser vendors correctly realized

01:09:26   that there is almost no downside to,

01:09:29   and a big upside to putting pop-up blockers in your browser.

01:09:32   So it was practically overnight.

01:09:34   They just slammed the door shut on that entire thing.

01:09:36   Like that was, they were in epidemic.

01:09:38   Popups were everywhere.

01:09:39   And it was like, everyone just said,

01:09:40   nope, that's not happening.

01:09:42   Was there any sort of lengthy negotiation

01:09:45   and hemming and hawing about putting the websites

01:09:48   we love out of business, doesn't matter.

01:09:50   It was in browsers, it was on by default.

01:09:52   That's the end of that, right?

01:09:54   There was a little bit of arms race fighting,

01:09:56   like see how we can like, if you, when you click

01:09:57   on this link, I'll count that as your intentional click

01:10:00   to pop up a pop thing, but for the most part,

01:10:04   putting that feature in the browser made pop-ups

01:10:07   way less prevalent than they were before.

01:10:09   Like I still see them, they still, they can still trick you

01:10:11   into clicking and doing something like that.

01:10:13   That is a super important technical countermeasure.

01:10:16   Same thing with Apple, allowing you to use,

01:10:18   what do they call them?

01:10:19   Content filters or whatever in iOS.

01:10:22   You couldn't do that before.

01:10:24   Apple has opened that door

01:10:26   and I think they made the same calculation.

01:10:28   They're like, we know if we do this,

01:10:30   the first thing out the gate

01:10:30   is gonna be a million ad blockers.

01:10:32   We're gonna make it super efficient.

01:10:33   We're gonna make it faster

01:10:34   because they want people to download those ad blockers

01:10:39   and use them to make their experience

01:10:41   browsing the web on their iPhone better.

01:10:43   So that's like the--

01:10:45   I almost feel like we are not as involved in the struggle

01:10:49   as we like to think that we are.

01:10:52   That really it's a negotiation between the platforms,

01:10:54   the software, and the websites.

01:10:57   Only as nerds who know about what a Chrome extension is

01:11:01   and are shopping around for this ghostery and disconnect

01:11:04   and all these other--

01:11:05   and the good old ad blog and all that stuff.

01:11:07   Most people don't run those things

01:11:09   or don't know how to install them

01:11:10   or someone installs them for them,

01:11:11   but then they break some websites or whatever.

01:11:13   Like navigating that is mostly a nerd concern.

01:11:16   But since those are the circles we travel in,

01:11:18   I understand your concern about like,

01:11:20   if I post this and I endorse this,

01:11:22   I know everyone who's reading it knows

01:11:23   how to install these things probably.

01:11:25   And so now by my endorsing it,

01:11:27   am I encouraging other people to install it?

01:11:29   And then, you know, am I reducing the revenue

01:11:31   to sites that people I know work for or whatever?

01:11:35   And when I think about that,

01:11:36   like just sort of our own little microcosm,

01:11:38   not in the sort of grand scheme of things,

01:11:41   for the wider web, when I think of that, I think,

01:11:44   well, it's the same negotiation

01:11:46   we've always had between sites.

01:11:48   It's not so much, you have to decide,

01:11:52   you have to do the calculation.

01:11:53   Do you like reading this website?

01:11:55   Yeah, I like the website,

01:11:56   but I don't like this other part of it.

01:11:57   All right, well, you can decide,

01:11:59   I'm gonna continue to read the website,

01:12:00   but I'm going to do something

01:12:02   that will make it a better experience to me.

01:12:04   Are you gonna block all ads?

01:12:05   Most people know that, yeah, if you block all ads,

01:12:08   probably you are making less money for the site,

01:12:11   but you're just one person and maybe you think,

01:12:12   well, even if me and everyone I know blocks ads

01:12:14   and even if all the nerds block ads,

01:12:16   it's only X percentage, so I still feel okay with that.

01:12:18   So maybe you're fine with it.

01:12:19   You just have to decide.

01:12:20   Like, there are consequences to everyone's action.

01:12:22   Like, should I block pop-ups?

01:12:23   Oh, what if I'm stopping the revenue

01:12:25   that these guys were getting from these obnoxious pop-up ads?

01:12:28   If I want the site still to exist, I better enable pop-ups.

01:12:30   Well, some sites did go under

01:12:32   because they couldn't be supported without pop-ups,

01:12:33   but other sites didn't go under.

01:12:35   They found another way to make money.

01:12:37   If everybody's blocking pop-ups,

01:12:38   advertisers just find another way to advertise.

01:12:40   So I'm sort of on this battle between users and websites

01:12:45   and browser vendors and whatever, I try to,

01:12:49   in my actions with the own stuff that I install,

01:12:52   try to make them reflect the sites that I care about.

01:12:56   I like a white list.

01:12:57   The sites that I care about that have just

01:12:59   become too obnoxious, I feel like I

01:13:00   have to send them a signal.

01:13:01   Like, I like your site.

01:13:02   I like reading these things.

01:13:04   But autoplay video is just not happening.

01:13:06   So I'm going to install things.

01:13:07   I'm going to install things that are going to stop that.

01:13:10   that is my signal to you, the site,

01:13:12   that if the only way you can exist

01:13:14   is with auto-playing video, then I'm sorry,

01:13:16   but I don't want you to exist.

01:13:18   And I don't, you know, speaking of ethics

01:13:19   and morals and stuff, I think that that is not,

01:13:22   like there's no obligation on either side.

01:13:24   They put something listening on a port at an IP address,

01:13:28   and I, and they welcome the entire world

01:13:31   to make a request for it and receive that information,

01:13:33   and we can do whatever the hell we want

01:13:34   with that information.

01:13:34   I can redirect it to a file, I can run it through Lynx,

01:13:37   or I can show it in a web browser,

01:13:39   but just not request any of the Flash

01:13:41   and not request any of the JavaScript trackers.

01:13:43   Like that's the negotiation.

01:13:45   There's nothing ethical about it.

01:13:47   It's purely practical.

01:13:49   It's like if you understand the consequences

01:13:51   of what you're doing on your end

01:13:53   and how it might affect revenue

01:13:54   and how it might affect the existence of the thing

01:13:55   on that end, also how it might motivate them

01:13:57   to change their website.

01:13:58   If everybody blocks pop-ups, like then the sites go,

01:14:02   well, we'll have to come up with a different strategy.

01:14:05   And maybe that strategy involves

01:14:06   a million JavaScript trackers

01:14:07   that are not as invisible as pop-ups,

01:14:08   but they can end up paying more when we track your habits.

01:14:11   And if everyone installs something to block that,

01:14:13   they'll have to find another way.

01:14:15   I'm pretty comfortable with this negotiation.

01:14:17   I don't lose any sleep over the give and take.

01:14:22   I think that's just the natural way things work out.

01:14:24   The thing I'm mostly frustrated with is

01:14:26   for the longest time it seemed like the browser vendors

01:14:29   were kind of afraid to take that extra step.

01:14:31   Like, browsers could come with built-in ed blockers,

01:14:34   for example, or built-in JavaScript, like they don't.

01:14:36   They just kind of like, well, we have an extension framework

01:14:39   and people can write whatever they want

01:14:40   and the nerds can install it and whatever.

01:14:42   Browsers do come with a built-in pop-up blocker.

01:14:45   It seems like we're ready for the next round

01:14:47   of kind of platform owners and browser vendors

01:14:51   to take the next step,

01:14:53   because I think leaving it entirely to third parties,

01:14:55   even how iOS is doing,

01:14:57   is gonna create a little bit of confusion.

01:15:00   There's a potential for the ad blockers

01:15:02   and the anti-tracker things to themselves be scammy.

01:15:04   I think someone pointed out the ghostery

01:15:06   is produced by an ad company.

01:15:07   The good old ad block extension is also,

01:15:10   lets people pay it to whitelist their ads.

01:15:12   Like scaminess finds a way.

01:15:15   It's like a life in Jurassic Park.

01:15:18   So we still have to be vigilant,

01:15:20   but I think I'm ready for the next round of,

01:15:23   like you said, technical countermeasures

01:15:24   from all parties involved to renegotiate the contract.

01:15:27   Because there's nothing that says

01:15:29   that the only way sites can make money

01:15:31   is to have increasingly scammy ads.

01:15:33   If nobody can have that much trackers

01:15:35   that much stupid JavaScript, if it ends up being wildly blocked, they'll have to, you

01:15:39   know, find a different way, hopefully a more tasteful way to advertise.

01:15:43   This is the negotiation.

01:15:44   They put out content, but if we find it annoying, they have to, you know, provide something

01:15:49   that we like and not annoy us too much.

01:15:50   And if they're annoying us too much, we'll do something back.

01:15:52   And they have to figure out a way to make something that people enjoy that also pays

01:15:56   money.

01:15:57   And that's why I think the whole thing of like, if you block ads, you're a criminal,

01:16:01   you're taking foods from people's mouths, you're trying to put sites out of business.

01:16:05   "There's no obligation on either side of this.

01:16:07   "We all have to come to a mutual agreement

01:16:08   "and we feel like we have a beneficial relationship

01:16:10   "where I enjoy the things that you're writing

01:16:13   "and you enjoy me coming there to see it

01:16:15   "and seeing your ads or whatever."

01:16:18   That's the negotiation we're all in here.

01:16:20   And it's not as if one party is just obligated

01:16:23   to just choke down whatever the other party does,

01:16:25   nor is, on the other side of the coin,

01:16:28   sites that say, "You can't come read our site

01:16:29   "if you run an ad blocker."

01:16:31   And ours technically has various times done

01:16:33   various detection to see, "Hey, are you blocking ads?

01:16:35   "Nope, sorry, you're not allowed to read our site."

01:16:36   They can do that too, like that's the negotiation.

01:16:39   - Oh yeah.

01:16:40   - Because ours technically, as historically,

01:16:42   I would imagine, I don't remember the exact numbers,

01:16:44   a higher percentage than normal of ad blockers

01:16:47   because it's read by a bunch of nerds, right?

01:16:48   And so it's like, well, you can't have 50%

01:16:51   of the people running ad blockers,

01:16:53   it's just not viable for our business.

01:16:54   You are reading our site, you obviously enjoy the content,

01:16:56   we'll try to keep it tasteful, we don't have autoplay ads,

01:16:58   we don't have video ads, like we don't have a lot of ads

01:17:01   on the page, if you block ads, you can't read the site.

01:17:03   So that's the thing we're going through here.

01:17:06   And I'm ready for the next round of,

01:17:08   oh God, I almost quoted the "Phantom Menace."

01:17:12   I won't do it.

01:17:13   Everyone knows what I was gonna say.

01:17:15   - I actually don't.

01:17:16   - Me neither.

01:17:17   - I know, the rest of the audience does.

01:17:18   It's fine.

01:17:19   Now I'm depressed.

01:17:21   I don't like that popping into my head.

01:17:23   Damn you, George Lucas.

01:17:25   - How many times have you seen the "Phantom Menace?"

01:17:27   I've only seen it like twice.

01:17:29   - Too many.

01:17:30   I did a podcast about it.

01:17:31   I don't even wanna talk about it.

01:17:33   It's a dark time. That was from one of the good movies. Oh wow. Alright, so we should

01:17:38   potentially be done here, but so Jon can get himself a tissue and cry. Wow. Well, thanks

01:17:43   a lot to our three sponsors this week, Fracture, Backblaze, and Casper, and we will see you

01:17:48   next week.

01:17:49   [music]

01:17:52   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

01:17:58   Accidental.

01:17:59   Oh, it was accidental.

01:18:01   Accidental.

01:18:02   John didn't do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn't let him

01:18:07   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

01:18:10   It was accidental (accidental)

01:18:12   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:18:17   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:18:22   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:18:26   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:18:31   Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C, USA, Syracuse, it's accidental.

01:18:41   They didn't mean to, accidental.

01:18:46   Tech podcast so long.

01:18:51   Jon, let me make you happy.

01:18:53   How is not doing a review this summer?

01:18:56   It's pretty good. Pretty, pretty good.

01:18:59   See, just like that, you're back in it.

01:19:01   Let's do another hour and a half.

01:19:02   Another reference?

01:19:03   You wanna watch Star Wars with all your new time?

01:19:06   How about, let's start with episode one.

01:19:08   Let's uh, what's that again?

01:19:09   There's a couple of weird things about not doing the reboot.

01:19:12   Like obviously yeah, free time, less pressure, more relaxing, blah blah blah, but the other

01:19:15   thing is that of course I have El Capitan installed and uh, well, the thing that's annoying

01:19:21   me about it is, it seems like, first of all I have it installed but I don't use it a lot

01:19:25   because it's on my main computer and I don't want to reboot and it'll have a reason to

01:19:28   to go into it.

01:19:28   And then every time I reboot into it,

01:19:29   there's like two new updates.

01:19:30   But rather than just installing the latest version on top

01:19:33   of it, I have to go through the update like two times.

01:19:34   Like I'm a Windows user.

01:19:35   It's like upgrade to beta 5, upgrade to beta 6,

01:19:38   upgrade to beta 7 with a reboot in between each.

01:19:40   It's like just bring me right to beta 7, guys.

01:19:43   Anyway, I don't know much about using the operating system

01:19:47   because I'm finding myself not using it.

01:19:48   So the other exciting thing that's going to happen here

01:19:50   is it's going to come out.

01:19:52   And I'm going to have to read reviews

01:19:53   to find out what the hell-- I mean,

01:19:54   I think I know most of this stuff.

01:19:55   but all the little intricate details

01:19:58   and the deep dives and stuff, I'm not doing that myself,

01:20:01   so I basically don't know.

01:20:02   I don't know what it's like to use that

01:20:04   as my main operating system

01:20:06   for any substantial period of time,

01:20:07   because I just haven't been.

01:20:08   It's like I've only booted into it.

01:20:10   Every time I boot into it, there's two more updates,

01:20:11   and then I do all the updates and I wander around,

01:20:14   and I enjoy the fact

01:20:14   that I don't have to take any screenshots,

01:20:16   and then I fiddle around with it

01:20:18   and play with the various options and look at things,

01:20:20   and then I reboot it into my regular OS.

01:20:23   - It'll be interesting to see when it comes out

01:20:27   and as you have to then turn to other people

01:20:29   for their reviews, you're probably gonna have

01:20:33   some very conflicting feelings of probably immense relief

01:20:36   that you didn't have to do it,

01:20:38   but also immense dissatisfaction

01:20:40   with the job everyone else did and your absence.

01:20:42   - I'm fine with it, it'll be fine.

01:20:44   I'm excited to use the new OS,

01:20:46   because I see, it's hard to tell

01:20:49   'cause you reboot into a clean OS,

01:20:50   you're like, "Wow, this is so much faster."

01:20:51   because there's nothing installed on it

01:20:53   and it's like even a different Apple ID

01:20:54   and it's all, you know,

01:20:55   it seems smoother and cleaner and nicer.

01:20:58   They've done minor refinements to the look that I like.

01:21:01   I think all the changes they've made to the look I endorse,

01:21:03   even on my crappy non-retina screen here,

01:21:05   it looks a little bit crisper and cleaner and tighter,

01:21:07   less kind of low contrast, faded and edgeless.

01:21:12   And yeah, like I like everything about it so far.

01:21:19   I like the suggestion from Chloe Diggs Pipe Wark

01:21:22   in the chat room who says,

01:21:24   "We should pool our money to get Jon out to California

01:21:26   "so he can review the actual El Capitan."

01:21:28   (laughing)

01:21:29   The mountain.

01:21:30   - I don't know how I would review the mountain.

01:21:33   I don't like being on top of the,

01:21:34   what is it, the caldera or whatever that's gonna explode

01:21:36   and destroy the entire West Coast.

01:21:38   Sometime in the next 50,000 years, guaranteed,

01:21:41   or something like that.

01:21:43   - Wow.

01:21:44   - Oh my goodness.

01:21:45   So is there any one particular review

01:21:47   that you're looking forward to?

01:21:49   Do you know who's doing it for ours?

01:21:51   Is ours doing it?

01:21:52   - Yeah, ours is doing it.

01:21:53   I will read theirs.

01:21:55   If Vittucci does one, I'll read it.

01:21:57   I'm more, I'm sure I'll read.

01:21:59   If Jason will probably do one for Macworld at this rate,

01:22:01   I'll read that one.

01:22:02   I read them all anyway, but now I'll read them

01:22:05   and I'll be learning things.

01:22:06   - And I'm with Marco that I can't wait

01:22:11   until all this comes out and then you quietly tell somebody,

01:22:15   one of us hopefully, oh my god, I cannot believe the job that these people have done. Like,

01:22:21   they did a great job, but... Did I ever say that before? No, it's fine.

01:22:25   Like, it's fine. They got most of the way, but...

01:22:28   Unless there's like some obvious pop culture reference that nobody managed to make,

01:22:32   then I feel like I will miss, you know, that really, I was needed. That annoyed me about

01:22:38   the Google alphabet thing, where they made like the period a link to the hooli thing.

01:22:43   Did you see that?

01:22:44   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:22:45   And it was like, oh my god, it's the best Easter egg ever.

01:22:48   Like seriously, a period length?

01:22:50   Amateur hour.

01:22:52   I think it wasn't even underlined.

01:22:54   Like they styled it in such a way that it--

01:22:56   Text decoration, none.

01:22:57   Whoa, advanced technology.

01:22:59   Yeah, all right.

01:23:00   Anyway, my pointless HTML Easter egg genius

01:23:05   will go unrecognized in my lifetime, clearly.

01:23:08   I'm sorry, Jon.

01:23:09   Who's going to make all the Simpsons links references?

01:23:12   - Yeah, the worst thing about Easter eggs in HTML

01:23:14   is you just view source and you can see them all, right?

01:23:16   I was never clever, I was never like doing the job.

01:23:19   In this age of right-click inspect,

01:23:22   you can't even hide stuff in the DOM anymore.

01:23:23   Maybe if I did it with Shadow DOM.

01:23:24   But anyway, I didn't even try to hide.

01:23:26   It was just out there in the open,

01:23:27   so it seems like all the Easter eggs

01:23:29   and all my references should have been found by now.

01:23:31   But most people just don't even care,

01:23:33   so they just go right by it.

01:23:35   - Yeah, I didn't click.

01:23:36   I would at least hover on all of your links,

01:23:38   but I didn't click on a lot of them

01:23:39   because I knew, if I'm honest,

01:23:41   - I wouldn't understand the damn reference

01:23:43   in the first place.

01:23:44   - Sometimes I give you the hover, sometimes I don't.

01:23:47   Depends on the reference, depends on the thing,

01:23:50   but period links.

01:23:52   - Let's just say that I did not read your review on Expert.

01:23:58   I read it on amateur hour.

01:24:00   - Yeah, I wouldn't even follow most things

01:24:01   'cause I was reading on iPads usually

01:24:03   'cause that's how I would prefer to read,

01:24:05   like, you know, to sit down, concentrate,

01:24:06   not sitting in front of a computer,

01:24:07   but like sit down and actually read, you know, reading mode.

01:24:10   And for me, that's an iPad or an iPhone.

01:24:14   So I would always read it on an iPad.

01:24:16   - I could have done some cool gesture recognition

01:24:18   Easter eggs but never got around to it.

01:24:20   - Wow.

01:24:21   (laughing)

01:24:22   Oh goodness.

01:24:23   So what do you do in the summer other than traveling a bit?

01:24:25   Like do you feel like you have time to fill?

01:24:27   I mean, I assume the answer is no, but.

01:24:30   - It's more relaxing.

01:24:31   I mean, I'm podcasting more this summer than I was

01:24:36   'cause I've got the two regular podcasts now,

01:24:37   even though one of them is every other week.

01:24:39   And so that actually does make a big difference.

01:24:42   So it's basically, and it's possible

01:24:43   between all the vacations,

01:24:44   it's like at least two podcasts every week.

01:24:46   So that is taking up more time.

01:24:48   And then, yeah, being on vacation

01:24:51   and not stressing about things and just, you know,

01:24:53   the nights when I'm not podcasting,

01:24:55   I can actually just relax and watch an episode

01:24:58   of "Orange is the New Black" and not worry

01:25:01   about what I have and haven't written

01:25:02   and not worry about retaking screenshots

01:25:05   or poring over details of the OS

01:25:06   or trying to get in touch with Apple PR

01:25:08   in the three days before I have to publish my thing.

01:25:12   Relaxing.

01:25:13   - I am glad, I really am.

01:25:16   I'm glad that things are going well

01:25:18   and that you are relaxed.

01:25:19   So, are you relaxed enough to do it

01:25:22   for whatever ridiculous name they come up with next year?

01:25:25   - Oh, no.

01:25:26   I'm out.

01:25:27   I'm out.

01:25:28   - So you're not Michael Jordan.

01:25:30   This is your one and only retirement.

01:25:31   - No, I'm gonna go play baseball?

01:25:32   Come on.

01:25:33   - You never know, just asking.

01:25:36   - I'm already reviewing toasters, kind of.

01:25:38   - That's true.

01:25:39   And bless you for doing it.

01:25:41   Oh goodness.

01:25:43   They have a door yet?

01:25:45   - No.

01:25:46   - Cool.

01:25:46   (laughing)

01:25:48   - See, home contracting work is never done.

01:25:50   - Yeah, like the goal was to have this done this summer.

01:25:53   I think we'll probably still make that,

01:25:55   but you know, could be into September, whatever.

01:25:58   - Yeah.

01:26:00   Marco, how's your new child that arrived about a week ago?

01:26:03   - Oh yeah, the camera.

01:26:05   - Good?

01:26:06   - It's really good.

01:26:07   Yeah, I mean, I've only had it a week so far. I knew going into it that I would not be happy

01:26:13   with the battery life that the battery life on all the Sony mirrorless cameras, at least

01:26:18   the full frame ones is awful and they have continued that tradition. The battery life

01:26:22   is indeed terrible. They have partially fixed that problem by just shipping it with two

01:26:27   batteries. Seriously, yes, they ship it. This is the first thing I've ever bought that comes

01:26:31   with two of its own batteries. So, and they give you, they give you an external charger

01:26:36   also in a control via USB when you plug it in so it's hilarious so yeah so they

01:26:42   we have multiple batteries and it's fine and the picture quality is just stunning

01:26:47   I mean it's just ridiculous what I especially like about it so this is I'm

01:26:51   talking about the a7r - I don't know if I actually said that earlier I think I

01:26:54   forgot to what I especially like about it is that my my hit rate or my keeper

01:27:00   rate like that the percentage of pictures I shoot that end up being good

01:27:04   and like good enough to keep and not just delete because something was out of

01:27:08   focus or whatever my hit rate is extremely high way higher than it's ever

01:27:12   been with any other camera I've ever used including an iPhone and and I think

01:27:17   there's there's a number of possible reasons for this number one I think is

01:27:22   just that it has a really really good autofocus system most mirrorless cameras

01:27:27   don't have phase detect autofocus and phase detect is that's what Apple called

01:27:32   focus pixels in the iPhone 6 and it's what it's the way that SLRs have always

01:27:37   focused. The alternative is contrast detect where you just read the image off

01:27:41   the sensor and you you move the focus motor forward and back until you see you

01:27:47   notice like there are more high contrast edges at this focal length than this

01:27:51   focal length that's most likely in focus and that's why you see cameras kind of

01:27:54   going in and out of focus as as they try to find that point that's called hunting

01:27:59   and it's more prevalent in contrast systems.

01:28:02   And so for a while, mirrorless cameras only had those,

01:28:05   and many of them still only have that,

01:28:07   but a few of them have phase detect autofocus,

01:28:10   and this is one of them.

01:28:12   And the previous Sonys, with the exception of the A7II,

01:28:15   the previous, like the A7I line, didn't have phase.

01:28:19   So this results in way faster and more accurate autofocus

01:28:23   than, you know, it's almost SLR speed.

01:28:26   It's not quite there, but it's almost SLR speed.

01:28:28   it's the closest I've ever seen in a camera

01:28:30   that wasn't an SLR.

01:28:32   Or for my usage, I think it's close enough.

01:28:35   It's a little early to say that definitively,

01:28:36   but I think it is close enough to be, you know,

01:28:40   very similar to a good SLR.

01:28:42   Like I used the system in the Nikon D750 that I rented

01:28:46   was, is well regarded, it's another very, very well-liked,

01:28:49   very advanced autofocus system for SLRs.

01:28:52   I don't think it's the best in the world,

01:28:53   but I think it's certainly up there.

01:28:56   And I would say this is actually very close to that.

01:28:58   it's very, very close focus speed wise.

01:29:00   So anyway, contributing to my percentage of pictures

01:29:03   that are good being high is that really good focus system,

01:29:06   that the percentage of pictures that I'm shooting

01:29:08   that the focus is correct is very, very high

01:29:11   because it's just fast and accurate.

01:29:14   And the other thing that I like is,

01:29:16   there's this, and the sensor,

01:29:19   you can crank the ISO sensitivity on the sensor

01:29:22   up like crazy because it's just really, really good.

01:29:26   like most modern Sony sensors,

01:29:28   which includes the ones in Nikon cameras,

01:29:30   most modern Sony developed full-frame sensors

01:29:32   are just stunningly good with keeping low noise

01:29:37   at high ISO sensitivities.

01:29:39   So what's good about this camera is that

01:29:41   not only does it have that, but it has a feature

01:29:44   that is only in a ridiculously small number of cameras.

01:29:47   I don't know why this is such a rare feature

01:29:49   and such a relatively new feature,

01:29:51   where you can set it on auto ISO,

01:29:54   and then you can customize what your minimum shutter speed is.

01:29:58   So you can run the camera in aperture priority mode,

01:30:02   and you can set the aperture to whatever you want,

01:30:03   and then you can say auto ISO,

01:30:05   but keep the shutter speed above, say, 1/250th of a second.

01:30:10   'Cause 1/250th, you can freeze most motion

01:30:15   with most lens lengths around that,

01:30:17   so that's a good minimum.

01:30:19   So if you're shooting inside at f/5.6

01:30:21   and trying to keep 1/250th of a second,

01:30:24   The ISO has to crank really high up to like, you know,

01:30:27   the 10 to 25,000 range, really high ISOs.

01:30:30   And this camera, it just looks good.

01:30:32   Like it still looks good at those crazy ISOs.

01:30:34   And again, you can get this in modern icons as well.

01:30:37   So I, you know, not to say this is exclusive to Sony,

01:30:39   but to have this in such a small camera

01:30:44   with so many advanced features.

01:30:45   So the combination of the focus system being so good,

01:30:49   the auto ISO with the minimum shutter speed,

01:30:51   making it so that you can basically shoot anything

01:30:54   in any light and have it be sharp,

01:30:56   as long as you're willing to tolerate some noise

01:30:58   at the extreme high ISOs.

01:30:59   And also it has a stabilized image sensor.

01:31:04   So, you know, just similar to the iPhone 6 Plus,

01:31:07   this has sensor shift technology.

01:31:10   So it can shift the sensor around to do image stabilization

01:31:13   no matter what lens you put on it.

01:31:14   So even when you're using a really short lens,

01:31:16   like a 35 millimeter, which it's very hard to find

01:31:20   short image stabilized primes generally,

01:31:23   though not a lot of manufacturers ever make those

01:31:25   'cause there's a lot less demand for image stabilization

01:31:28   in short lenses like that than there is

01:31:30   like for telephotos and zooms.

01:31:31   So you can have like very, very short distance

01:31:35   image stabilization, shooting really fast, high ISO.

01:31:39   So the combination of those things

01:31:42   just incredibly improves the hit rate of what you're taking.

01:31:46   So rather than shooting like 200 photos

01:31:50   in an afternoon of doing something

01:31:51   and then trying to pick out the 20 good ones,

01:31:54   I'm shooting like 40 photos

01:31:56   and picking out the 20 good ones.

01:31:57   It's incredible, the difference, the time it saves.

01:32:01   And even like, I'm even considering turning off RAW

01:32:04   because the JPEGs that come out of this camera are so good

01:32:08   and do such a good job with dynamic range capture

01:32:10   and there's a bunch of options

01:32:12   I still can play with with that,

01:32:13   that it's just incredible.

01:32:15   Even RAW is becoming a lot less necessary

01:32:19   and I'm using the Photos app and Lightroom

01:32:23   kind of in parallel right now,

01:32:24   'cause the Apple camera RAW system

01:32:27   doesn't support the RAW files for this yet.

01:32:28   So I'm only dealing with the JPEGs in the Photos app

01:32:32   and only seeing the RAWs in Lightroom,

01:32:33   and I like the JPEGs better

01:32:36   than the color I can get in Lightroom,

01:32:37   and they don't look worse for the most part.

01:32:42   I'll go to the RAW if I have to pull up shadow detail

01:32:44   really high or something, but that's rare.

01:32:47   So yeah, overall, it's great.

01:32:49   Like, it's a really great camera.

01:32:51   So I'm extremely happy with it.

01:32:53   I have three lenses, and I don't expect

01:32:57   to get any more in the near future.

01:32:58   I have a 35 2.8, a little 35.

01:33:01   I have the 55 1.8, which is possibly

01:33:05   the best lens I've ever seen.

01:33:07   And I have the 90 macro, which is really ridiculously sharp,

01:33:12   and it's awfully close, and it's massive and heavy,

01:33:16   but for product shots for my blog and stuff like that,

01:33:19   I'm greatly enjoying that.

01:33:21   So yeah, overall, three thumbs up.

01:33:24   - Nice.

01:33:25   Every time I think of buying one of these

01:33:26   super expensive cameras, I remember A,

01:33:28   that I'd rather spend the money on a Mac,

01:33:30   and B, that where I take most of my pictures

01:33:33   during each year is standing waist deep in ocean waves.

01:33:38   And I really wouldn't want to be holding

01:33:40   a two or $3,000 camera in my hand while doing that.

01:33:44   So far I haven't dropped one, and I don't know how many years we've been going on a vacation to the beach

01:33:49   and me taking pictures of kids in the waves, but like, at least, you know, six, seven, eight years.

01:33:55   Haven't dropped the camera yet, but it's gonna happen eventually, and when it does, I want it to be like a $600 mistake.

01:34:00   I really don't want it to be a $2,000 or $3,000 mistake.

01:34:06   I did fall this year with it, but only on the sand, and the camera was held safely in the air.

01:34:12   I wish I'd seen that. I can only imagine the acrobatics you went through to save the camera.

01:34:16   What I was actually saving was my sneakers, because we were just like, it was after a

01:34:20   run and like, I didn't have like, you know, I had actual sneakers on with socks and it

01:34:24   was just, I wasn't going to go in the water, but like the waves, you know, come up and

01:34:27   like one wave started coming up and it was, caught me by surprise and I started to run

01:34:31   backwards up the hill in the sand to keep my sneakers out of the water and I lost my

01:34:35   footing and went under my butt, but the camera stayed in the air and no water on the shoes

01:34:41   either. Sand on the butt but otherwise nothing. That's by the way this is this is my you know

01:34:48   for for people who do not have super expensive cameras let me give you the most important

01:34:51   photography tip. Take your crappy camera and take pictures in ridiculously bright sunlight.

01:34:57   They look really good because everything is lit up and your crappy camera that does not very

01:35:03   light sensitive with a tiny little sensor it's fine you capture any kind of motion in the bright

01:35:08   bright light of a sunny summer's day in mid-afternoon,

01:35:11   they look really good.

01:35:12   - Oh yeah, just put your iPhone in a plastic bag, done.

01:35:15   - Well, don't go that far.

01:35:16   - Bright sun is, yeah, pretty much any camera.

01:35:19   Like that's why the iPhone,

01:35:21   like whenever there's a new iPhone

01:35:22   and they're talking about how great the camera is

01:35:24   and they show like this is a real picture shot on an iPhone.

01:35:26   It's always like this bright, sunny,

01:35:28   beautiful scene in California.

01:35:30   It's like, no, that's not--

01:35:31   - Or it's like a closeup of a flower in the midday sun.

01:35:34   Yep, that will always look good.

01:35:36   With my cameras, with the cameras I buy, I don't even bother taking pictures indoors

01:35:40   at this point.

01:35:41   Like there's no point.

01:35:42   Like they're just, they're always going to be terrible.

01:35:44   There's just, it has to be outdoors and it has to be sunny.

01:35:48   Which is fine with me.

01:35:49   There's plenty of times when those conditions are met and I can get lots of pictures of

01:35:54   family and things.

01:35:55   We still get professional photos taken.

01:35:57   Now I think we're down to once a year just to have someone else take them so we can all

01:36:01   be in the picture and have family photos.

01:36:03   I mean, the professional photographer uses a fancy camera so they look better than ours,

01:36:06   but I think we are adequately documenting our lives at this point.

01:36:11   As long as it's all backed up, we'll be fine.

01:36:14   [BEEP]