129: Tap-to-Click Wizard


00:00:00   Sometimes people just like to have something to fiddle with their fingers.

00:00:03   [


00:00:04   What else going on?

00:00:06   Nothing, because we have nothing in the follow-up section this week,

00:00:08   except for an item we decided we're not talking about this week, and that's it.

00:00:11   So we actually genuinely have no follow-up for real, as confirmed by John Zirocusa himself.

00:00:18   We had a long, you know, I was away on vacation, and we, you know, we had a weird recording schedule.

00:00:23   What the hell was our last show about? It was so long ago.

00:00:26   It doesn't really matter. I don't know.

00:00:28   So, yeah, we should, I guess, talk about Skylake, because that's a thing as of today.

00:00:33   as of today?

00:00:35   - Well, sort of.

00:00:36   I mean, I think the most boring Skylake chips launch today,

00:00:39   the ones that go in like iMacs and desktops.

00:00:42   - Oh, are they the most boring?

00:00:43   I think Intel thinks that they're the most exciting

00:00:46   because they are extreme to use the 90s parlance.

00:00:49   Like they're the unlocked, able to be overclocked.

00:00:53   Like Intel is actually talking about overclocking in them.

00:00:56   You know what I mean?

00:00:56   Like they're the ones,

00:00:57   they're sort of the PC enthusiast chips.

00:00:59   Not that there's many of them left,

00:01:00   but like maybe they think that's like the only place

00:01:03   it is a potentially a growth market.

00:01:04   So I don't think they are the most boring ones.

00:01:07   Maybe they're the least relevant

00:01:09   to people who buy Apple computers,

00:01:11   because like you said,

00:01:12   these are just gonna be the ones that go on the iMacs

00:01:14   and the ones that go on the iMacs

00:01:15   aren't gonna be overclocked

00:01:16   and it's gonna be the middle range one

00:01:18   with the Iris Pro graphics and it's like, whatever.

00:01:21   But I think Intel,

00:01:24   'cause they were released and announced,

00:01:25   so what is it, Gamescom?

00:01:26   What the hell's the name of that conference?

00:01:28   - Yeah, it doesn't matter.

00:01:29   - Anyway, a gaming related thing.

00:01:30   And so they're going to releasing the chips

00:01:32   that would be of interest to people

00:01:35   who are building gaming PCs.

00:01:36   And they wanna know, I'm building my next gaming PC,

00:01:39   I want to maybe overclock it,

00:01:41   maybe I wanna put two, three, four GPUs,

00:01:46   graphics cards inside it,

00:01:47   and gang them together in some way.

00:01:49   And so, yeah, these--

00:01:50   - It's really about ethics and overclocking.

00:01:52   - Oh my God.

00:01:53   - These are exciting, well, Intel thinks they're exciting,

00:01:56   but you're saying they're not exciting

00:01:57   because they're not like the ones

00:01:59   that are gonna go in most of the Macs that Apple sells,

00:02:02   which are the laptops, and they're not anything that would ever go into Mac Pro, right?

00:02:07   No, but it isn't even just that. I'm saying even for the markets that they are intended

00:02:11   for, I think it's an incremental update at best. What is apparently the big thing with

00:02:19   Skylake is really, it's a small incremental improvement in performance, but it's an allegedly

00:02:27   substantial improvement in power consumption and battery life. And so to have these high

00:02:32   clock desktop chips come out that are high wattage, high clocks, not meant for laptops

00:02:36   where the power stuff is probably not super tuned in or at least super emphasized, it's

00:02:43   interesting but only on a mild level for a very small number of people. It doesn't really

00:02:49   matter if the desktop chips get 10% more power efficient. It doesn't have that big of an

00:02:54   effect on them. Yeah, yeah, you can slam against the TDP more and get a little more clock speed

00:02:59   out of it maybe, but for the most part, the exciting part here is when these come to laptops.

00:03:06   We have heard so many things that Skylake is going to be this major power improvement

00:03:10   and everything. The reality is that matters so much more in laptops. So if we can actually

00:03:16   get 20% more performance in a laptop or 20% more battery life, that's way more impressive.

00:03:24   and that could really, that could make a big difference

00:03:27   in things like the MacBook One or the 11 inch Air

00:03:29   where the battery right now is pretty short,

00:03:33   really for what you need it for.

00:03:35   Or it could allow Apple to, you know,

00:03:38   obviously I would hope, with like the 15 inch line,

00:03:41   I would hope they would use this new savings

00:03:43   to just bank some battery life and bring it up

00:03:46   like to 12 hours instead of nine or something like that,

00:03:48   you know, or bring it up to six hours of heavy use

00:03:51   instead of five or four, that'd be great.

00:03:54   In reality, what's probably going to happen instead

00:03:56   is they're probably gonna just redesign the 15 inch

00:03:59   to make it thinner and lighter.

00:04:00   And you know, I don't love that they keep doing that,

00:04:03   but it's at least interesting and exciting

00:04:05   and certainly a lot of people like that.

00:04:08   And so, you know, that's where the action's gonna be

00:04:10   with Skylake is when it comes to the laptops.

00:04:13   In the meantime, you know, I don't,

00:04:16   as it's sitting here in desktops and not even the Mac Pro,

00:04:18   it's just sitting here like in high-end,

00:04:21   mostly PC desktops and maybe the iMacs,

00:04:24   That just isn't that interesting to me.

00:04:26   - So I haven't read too much about these chips

00:04:29   and I think not everything has been released

00:04:30   because even though they were sort of launched

00:04:32   at this game thing, the technical details,

00:04:36   according to NonTech anyway, are not coming out

00:04:38   until Intel's developer forum thing,

00:04:41   like where they're gonna tell you

00:04:42   about the guts of the stuff.

00:04:43   But this is their, oh god, what the hell is it,

00:04:46   TOC, right?

00:04:47   The new architecture.

00:04:49   It's the same, it's not a shrink.

00:04:50   It's still 14 nanometers.

00:04:53   It's their talk, it's a new architecture, but what is new and different about that architecture,

00:04:58   I don't think we know the details yet officially.

00:05:03   And this thing that we'll link in the show is benchmarking them all, like, not impressive

00:05:07   performance game for the desktop ones, some weird things where it's actually like a couple

00:05:10   percent slower due to some issue they couldn't work out when using external GPU, but whatever.

00:05:16   Like a low single digit percent increase on the stuff that you're doing.

00:05:23   Like Marco said power savings are not of interest for the desktop things because it's like whatever that's similar power range of the other chips

00:05:29   If this is a new architecture, what is different about it that's going to give us this supposed

00:05:36   Big increase in power savings because normally you think you get you'd get a big increase in power savings. Maybe with a shrink, right?

00:05:43   But this is not a shrink. It's just an architectural change and I guess like I'm reading this article

00:05:49   I can see how they can get a little bit of savings out here from moving execution units around and having like the display

00:05:54   some some fixed function hardware in the

00:05:57   Display chipset so you don't have to send data out through DRAM and back into the GPU and all you know all sorts of

00:06:03   small changes to save power lower voltage for

00:06:07   The memory interfaces and stuff like that

00:06:10   But I you know we don't know at least I don't know the technical details of the internet

00:06:16   So I'm curious to where the big savings are coming from.

00:06:19   I mean, I believe that they're there from, you know,

00:06:21   our tipster and other people, you know,

00:06:23   speculating about Skylikes,

00:06:25   saying that that is gonna be the selling point

00:06:27   of this line of ships, that it's gonna be,

00:06:28   well, who cares, not a big deal for desktops,

00:06:30   but for laptops, you should see a nice power savings.

00:06:34   I wanna know where that power savings comes from

00:06:35   because I think that'll be interesting,

00:06:36   especially if it's not like they,

00:06:38   it's clear that they didn't spend their time

00:06:39   working on performance 'cause it's like,

00:06:41   well, performance, you know, whatever,

00:06:42   it's basically a wash, maybe a little bit better.

00:06:45   But power savings, boy that's gonna be great.

00:06:46   And we did it without a shrink, how did we do it?

00:06:49   So I look forward to those details when they are revealed.

00:06:52   - Our first sponsor this week is our friends

00:06:55   at Cards Against Humanity.

00:06:56   And as usual, they have, instead of a normal ad read,

00:06:59   they have asked Jon to review a toaster.

00:07:02   ♪ Syracuse are talking about toasters ♪

00:07:05   ♪ More exciting than a rollercoaster ♪

00:07:08   ♪ Will it fit on his countertop ♪

00:07:10   ♪ I hope the reviews never stop ♪

00:07:13   This week's toaster is the Hamilton Beach 31330 Toaster Oven.

00:07:18   This is a pretty big toaster.

00:07:22   It is what I would call a four-slice toaster.

00:07:26   Although, of course, the manufacturer claims

00:07:27   that it's a six-slice toaster,

00:07:29   but this claim requires the standard miniature bread

00:07:31   that they use in the toaster oven box shots, right?

00:07:35   They don't put anything in there for scale,

00:07:36   but honestly, that bread is microscopic.

00:07:38   So anyway, four slices comfortably.

00:07:40   Like Mr. Burns, this toaster has a mighty hump

00:07:43   on the back of it.

00:07:44   - Ew.

00:07:45   - Those humps, you know the humps I'm talking about

00:07:46   where it's like, at some point in the past decade or so,

00:07:49   all toasters grew humps of some kind

00:07:50   because someone decided that it's great

00:07:53   to be able to advertise a toaster oven

00:07:54   by showing a picture of a pizza inside it.

00:07:56   And of course, the pizza's not gonna fit

00:07:57   in a rectangular oven very easily,

00:07:59   but if you put a little rounded hump in the back of it,

00:08:00   you get a little extra room to shove your pizza in there

00:08:02   and blah, blah, blah.

00:08:03   - You know, my toaster does not have this, John.

00:08:05   - You don't have any hump?

00:08:06   You sure? - No, it's flat.

00:08:08   - Is it pre-hump?

00:08:08   pre-hump toaster. Yeah. Wow. So you're pretty old. My toaster that you said was inferior

00:08:13   to your toaster does not have the hump. Yeah. I have a small hump. Most of them have humps.

00:08:18   But anyway, this, it's made, the hump is made to look larger because this toaster is skinnier

00:08:22   at the top than at the bottom. So honestly, like, maybe the hump is only a couple inches,

00:08:27   right? Maybe it's the same size as the average, but it looks huge. It really stands out the

00:08:30   way this toaster is shaped. The wire rack is kind of medium gauge. The wire rack is

00:08:34   not rectangular. It's like a rectangle and then there's this extra little thing, like

00:08:37   a little house poking out the back that goes into the hump section.

00:08:40   That's how big the hump is, the wire rack is like, it's a rectangle with another thing

00:08:44   attached to it sticking out of there.

00:08:47   Supposedly again, the purpose of the hump is to accommodate a round pan for something

00:08:51   like a pizza, but this toaster does not come with a round pan, which seems weird that this

00:08:54   is such a prominent hump and it doesn't actually come with a round pan or a round rack or anything.

00:08:58   I love the promo pictures, they show a pizza sitting on top of the wire rack of the toaster,

00:09:03   just on top of the wire, not even in a pan.

00:09:06   I feel like that would be a disaster.

00:09:07   they would have to already be done before it's put in there.

00:09:09   Right, yeah, you cook it and you put, if you put a fake pizza made out of wax or whatever

00:09:13   they make the food out of, you know, when they take pictures of it so it doesn't melt

00:09:15   under the hot lights.

00:09:17   Anyway, it comes with a rectangular pan.

00:09:20   The rectangular pan doesn't quite fill the toaster edge to edge.

00:09:23   I don't know if they did that on purpose to try to allow hot air to come around or whatever,

00:09:27   but it seems like kind of a shame.

00:09:29   Plus there's a little small wire rack that goes in the pan.

00:09:32   The knob situation, this is a three-knob toaster.

00:09:35   one is for temperature, but you still need to set it to toast if you want to toast. Middle

00:09:39   one is for function, toast, bake, whatever. Bottom one is the timer knob. And this is

00:09:44   one more toaster where all three knobs have to be in the right position in order for you

00:09:47   to toast. You've got to make sure the top knob is on toast, and you've got to turn the

00:09:50   function thing on toast, and you've got to turn the bottom knob every single time to

00:09:54   a particular angle. This one on the knob also says, "Please turn the timer knob past 15

00:09:58   and then back to the time that you want every time."

00:10:01   Oh, gross.

00:10:02   I don't even know if you need to do that because I think it feels like you can just turn it

00:10:05   to like, you know, they have a very limited range, like maybe 10 or 15 degrees that constitutes

00:10:09   the entire range of toasting, and you have to turn it in that range.

00:10:13   The knob feels okay, they don't wiggle or feel loose, they feel like, you know, solid,

00:10:18   but they're pretty darn hard to turn, they're not very grippy, they're like actually kind

00:10:21   of hard to turn.

00:10:23   And the indicator of like where the knob is pointing is just kind of like a dull pill

00:10:27   shaped lump in the shiny metal or shiny plastic face of the knob.

00:10:33   And the knobs are pretty tall, so you're trying to line up like sort of a indistinct capsule

00:10:38   shaped lump in the metal that's on a knob that's like an inch off the surface and you're

00:10:43   like way above on an angle and you're trying to line up that lump with like the exact unmarked

00:10:47   spot in the 10 to 20 degree range that constitutes toasting depending on like what angle you're

00:10:54   looking at.

00:10:55   It's really not easy to get repeatable stuff in it and it just doesn't, it feels like too

00:10:59   much effort like you're turning a little, especially if you have to turn it past 15

00:11:02   like force it back, not a great experience.

00:11:06   It's got four unshielded resistive heating elements in it,

00:11:09   which I knew were gonna be slower than the big,

00:11:12   thicker, quartzy looking things.

00:11:15   Four minute, 30 second toast time, not great,

00:11:18   at least it's not over five minutes,

00:11:20   but when it does toast, it's pretty even.

00:11:22   One edge was a little bit darker than the other,

00:11:24   but it was kind of like a smooth gradient.

00:11:26   I would say it makes acceptable toast.

00:11:28   Takes a little bit too long.

00:11:30   Crumb tray, blessedly, comes straight out,

00:11:32   so you're much less likely to dump the crumbs

00:11:34   back into the toaster when you're trying to remove it,

00:11:35   so thumbs up on that.

00:11:37   Door feels a little flimsy, but at least it opens all the way

00:11:39   and you don't feel like you're breaking it at any point.

00:11:42   The little claws on the door,

00:11:44   that like when you pull the door out,

00:11:46   also pull the tray out a little bit.

00:11:48   This toaster has the same problem as the other ones

00:11:50   where it has two different positions for the rack

00:11:52   and you're supposed to use the middle or a higher position

00:11:54   when you're making toast.

00:11:55   But the little claws, like we talked about,

00:11:57   how do you deal with the little claws that pull the tray out

00:11:59   pull the wire rack out when the wire rack can be in two different positions.

00:12:02   And a couple of the new manufacturers had clever things.

00:12:05   The fancy Breville one has like magnets, which I think are really cool to pull it out.

00:12:08   This one just punts on it and says, "You know what?

00:12:10   Our little claws are only going to pull the tray out when it's in the bottom position.

00:12:12   When it's in the top position, the little claws do nothing."

00:12:14   Which is kind of lame.

00:12:17   I don't know who made that decision.

00:12:18   Especially since most of the time you're using it in toast mode, aren't you?

00:12:22   I don't know.

00:12:23   Maybe most of the time people are using it in oven mode.

00:12:24   But anyway, it seems lame.

00:12:25   I have never until now considered the possibility that a toaster oven would have multiple rack heights

00:12:31   Are we supposed to be changing our rack height depending on what we cook because I'd never have does yours have multiple rack heights

00:12:37   I have no idea. I've never even looked. It's pre hump. It could be pre multiple rack heights

00:12:40   So the one that we had until it broke recently and so I am toaster oven lists, which is terrible

00:12:47   I know a guy who has some extras. Yeah, so I hear it had a very interesting design. It had a

00:12:53   wire rack that was

00:12:55   Kind of in an upside or kind of in a u-shape sort of I mean it was flattened

00:13:01   but the way it would work is you would put it in with

00:13:04   when it looked like a U and

00:13:06   It would be very close to the bottom of the toaster and then if you put it so that it was an upside down U

00:13:12   It would bring the rack such that it was about the middle of the toaster. Don't you listen to my reviews?

00:13:18   I just reviewed a toaster that had an exact feature a couple weeks ago

00:13:21   Maybe it's the same toaster anyway yours might have different heights

00:13:24   I think a lot of people buy these never look at the manual and if there's nothing written on the surface of the toaster

00:13:28   They just put the rack wherever they want it to and that's it. But yeah in the recent maybe five years ten years

00:13:35   Most toaster ovens have been coming with racks with either multiple positions

00:13:39   Yeah

00:13:40   Usually multiple issues because the higher position the position it looks crazy to all of us like when we were growing up the toasters all

00:13:45   Had the racks way down low on the bottom. That's the only place they would go. That was that

00:13:49   Now, toaster ovens all seem to have a higher position.

00:13:52   It looks way too high, but that's where they want you to do basically everything except

00:13:56   for bake.

00:13:57   They want you to toast there, they want you to broil there.

00:13:59   Only if you're baking, you're supposed to bring it down to the bottom.

00:14:01   This one is no different.

00:14:02   When you were toasting, it wants you to put the rack in sort of the midpoint of the oven.

00:14:07   Only when you're baking, you're supposed to put it down on the bottom.

00:14:09   This seemed like a step backwards in toaster oven convenience, because the whole point

00:14:12   of this thing is like, you can put basically anything in a toaster oven and get okay results

00:14:17   out of it with very little effort.

00:14:18   Why don't you start putting in the complexity of multiple rack heights and…

00:14:21   It's not that complicated.

00:14:22   Like, I feel like the toaster oven is used either mostly as an oven or mostly as a toaster.

00:14:26   So this is kind of a default position.

00:14:27   And honestly, if you just leave it in the high position, it bakes things fine.

00:14:31   Mostly they want you to use the bottom rack because if you're baking something that

00:14:33   is tall so that it doesn't get like if you're baking something like… even just a big baked

00:14:38   potato maybe starts getting too close to the heating elements on top so you want to move

00:14:41   it down.

00:14:42   But I don't think it's that big of a deal.

00:14:45   I think it is an improvement because when they were on the bottom it was basically impossible

00:14:48   to get even toasting because you're so close to the bottom elements and so far from the

00:14:52   top ones that it was always, you know, crap shoot.

00:14:55   When they're in the middle it's better.

00:14:56   But anyway, overall for this toaster I give it a passing grade.

00:14:59   Nothing on it is terrible.

00:15:01   Nothing on it is particularly great but it is certainly better than some of the really,

00:15:04   really bad toasters that we reviewed recently.

00:15:06   And it's 50 bucks-ish so it feels quality-wise like a $50 toaster but yeah, it just barely

00:15:14   it's passing great I think. A glowing review.

00:15:30   Thank you very much to Cards Against Humanity for sponsoring once again.

00:15:33   Okay, so I have big news in an otherwise completely empty week. Are you guys sitting down?

00:15:42   Are you running for president?

00:15:44   I am running for president as a Republican like the rest of the country is.

00:15:47   No, not really.

00:15:48   Let's talk about that.

00:15:49   People will love that.

00:15:50   Oh, let's not.

00:15:51   No, there's not a fast text update.

00:15:53   I have joined 2013.

00:15:56   2012.

00:15:57   2012, whatever.

00:15:59   I have a retina Mac now.

00:16:02   Woo!

00:16:03   Do you have it or is this a work computer?

00:16:06   Well, it's sitting next to me, but it belongs to work.

00:16:09   All right.

00:16:10   Well, that's close.

00:16:11   I mean, that's baby steps, you know, that helps.

00:16:14   - Yeah, I'm taking a step in the right direction.

00:16:16   So the funny thing behind this is,

00:16:18   I was talking in Slack with a bunch of people,

00:16:22   including the two of you guys, about, you know,

00:16:26   it's about time for me to get a new personal machine.

00:16:29   I have Aaron's MacBook Air that I'm using right now,

00:16:32   which has been under water about eight times.

00:16:34   I have two late 2011 high-res anti-glare MacBook Pros,

00:16:39   One with a platter drive and 8 gigs of RAM, which is mine.

00:16:43   One with a SSD and 16 gigs of RAM, which is works.

00:16:48   I knew it was about time to upgrade.

00:16:51   And I knew I should probably wait for Skylake, and so I knew I wasn't going to order anything

00:16:54   for me anytime soon, until the Skylake one comes out.

00:16:59   But I've been working really hard lately.

00:17:01   I'm really getting sick of my work computer having screaming fans anytime I do anything.

00:17:08   Really, I was supposed to get an upgrade in June at my three-year work anniversary because that's when AppleCare runs out and

00:17:13   I didn't get one then for various and sundry reasons and so today just mostly to be snarky I

00:17:20   emailed our IT guy and was like hey just a reminder not only is this computer three years old in that I've received it three

00:17:27   Years ago, but even when I got it at that point we weren't buying new Macs

00:17:31   We were buying refurbished old Macs and so even though I got it in mid 2012. It's actually a late 2011 Mac and

00:17:37   So I said that really just to kind of remind him that I'm looking for a new Mac at some point

00:17:43   Next thing I know he's going to the Apple store and getting me a 15-inch retina MacBook Pro

00:17:49   Which if you're gonna choose a problem to have is a pretty solid problem to have so

00:17:54   Yeah, so I got a maxed out 15-inch retina MacBook Pro the funny thing about it was I had concluded along

00:18:02   Well really because of the tutelage of Steven Hackett Marco and a few others

00:18:06   I should get the not discrete GPU MacBook Pro because there's really no need for me to have a discrete GPU MacBook Pro

00:18:13   I said to our IT guy, listen, I think what I want is the not discrete one

00:18:17   But I want the terabyte hard drive if I can get it I want

00:18:21   Oh the maxed out processor if I can get it, but don't worry about the the baller baller one

00:18:28   Just get me the the Intel GPU one. That's all I need. So he said okay got it

00:18:33   He comes back three hours later, whatever it was, and says, "Hey, also I gave you the super loaded one because it was only $100 more and I figured you'd like it."

00:18:40   Thanks!

00:18:42   Thanks. Close enough, man.

00:18:44   It was kind of the problem when, like,

00:18:45   people know you're interested in something and wanna, like, if someone's like, "Marco likes coffee, right?

00:18:51   I should buy him some coffee."

00:18:52   But you don't know anything about coffee and you're gonna buy Marco coffee, right? The odds of that, like, maybe Marco would appreciate the thought, but it's like,

00:19:01   Especially if more and you're in the situation like it's their job to buy you a computer and you have preferences and you communicate them

00:19:07   But you just know if you're not there during the purchase

00:19:09   It's like they're gonna do something that they think is the nice thing to do

00:19:12   It's like if I could just if let me just tell you exactly what to get just get this

00:19:15   I know exactly what I want just get this. Yep

00:19:17   Yeah, and that's what I tried but they feel like they want to do something even better

00:19:21   Like give me the give me the credit card. I will order it

00:19:23   That's even better if you can get them to do that

00:19:26   Well in his defense, you know, not only was he trying to do the right thing

00:19:31   and get me even more than what I asked for.

00:19:35   And not only that, but I'm pretty sure part of what

00:19:37   influenced him was that he could have this computer today.

00:19:40   And if I had gotten the not discreet GPU one,

00:19:44   it wasn't, you know, that's not carried

00:19:45   in any normal Apple store.

00:19:47   - Well, the base model is, but not with the terabyte

00:19:49   and the upgraded CPU, so yeah.

00:19:51   - Exactly, so here again, like I'm not mad about it.

00:19:54   I'm actually really excited to have a new computer

00:19:55   'cause again, as much as I do love my high res anti-glare

00:19:59   15-inch MacBook Pros. They're both getting pretty long in the tooth now. But I bring

00:20:04   all this up, actually, because I wanted to share what it's like to have a retina Mac

00:20:09   for the first time in 2015. Because all of you have lived this before, but I haven't,

00:20:14   so I want my moment in the sun, dammit.

00:20:16   You mean all of you. I don't have any retina Macs.

00:20:18   Well, you believe in ancient cheese graters, so you don't even count.

00:20:21   How am I the only one of the, of like three alleged Apple experts, how have I been the

00:20:27   the only one who's had a retina Mac since 2012.

00:20:30   - But you're also the only one who loves to buy

00:20:31   expensive things and then sell them and buy

00:20:33   different expensive things, whereas Casey and I

00:20:34   are much more cautious.

00:20:36   - Well, it's more that, John, you just don't own laptops,

00:20:39   generally speaking.

00:20:40   - I have two of them sitting in the room with me right now.

00:20:42   - Yeah, but they're not yours.

00:20:43   You know, I think if you were the kind of person

00:20:46   who bought a laptop for yourself, I think you would've

00:20:49   had one sometime in the last three years.

00:20:51   - Yeah, that's definitely true.

00:20:53   If I was a laptop person, I would've had a retina

00:20:54   one long time ago.

00:20:56   See, and I am a laptop person, but just like John said, I try to be frugal whenever possible.

00:21:04   I usually fail, but I try.

00:21:06   And so one way or another, this is my first retina Mac.

00:21:09   And I'm going to try to make this fairly quick.

00:21:12   Retina screens are beautiful.

00:21:13   A retina display delivers the very best viewing experience.

00:21:18   That's the first thing I noticed.

00:21:19   Second thing I noticed is, oh my God, everything is huge.

00:21:22   I'm used to this high-res anti-glare MacBook Pro whose resolution I don't even remember

00:21:27   offhand.

00:21:28   1680?

00:21:29   Sure, that sounds about right.

00:21:31   It is.

00:21:32   Whereas this 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro is considerably less than that effective resolution.

00:21:37   1440?

00:21:38   Is it 1440?

00:21:39   Yeah, but you can change it.

00:21:40   There's a setting.

00:21:41   Oh, the scaled mode.

00:21:43   Yeah, right.

00:21:44   But native is 1440.

00:21:45   I always keep forgetting that.

00:21:46   The native 2X is 1440.

00:21:47   That is tight.

00:21:48   Yeah, it is huge.

00:21:50   is huge by comparison, which is a little bit weird. I haven't yet changed the scaling.

00:21:55   I suspect I'm going to. It's only a matter of time.

00:21:58   Yeah, just change it. It's no big deal. Just change the name.

00:22:01   Where do I know that from? I don't even know.

00:22:03   You're not even getting Apple references anymore. Come on.

00:22:06   Sorry. Although, to be fair, I don't remember what

00:22:08   he was talking about. Which app it was?

00:22:11   Yeah, I don't remember the app. I just remember that. It was a JAWS email. Just change the

00:22:15   name. Not that big of a deal. Oh, that does ring a bell. Oh, well. That

00:22:19   That was the first thing I noticed after how beautiful it was, was "Oh my god, I cannot

00:22:23   put anything on the screen, everything is enormous."

00:22:25   Yes, I'm aware of scaling, I just haven't tried it yet.

00:22:28   I wanted to live with it as it was for a little while first.

00:22:30   The third thing I noticed was, you know, I'm trying furiously to prep this thing for work

00:22:37   tomorrow, and I'm installing VMware Fusion, which is the particular VM software that I

00:22:42   use just because that's what I bought forever ago, and I haven't ever switched to Parallel

00:22:48   since. Fusion's way better, please don't email us. Fair enough. I was installing VMware Fusion

00:22:53   and the first screen that comes up after whatever generic like OS X screens pop up for the installation,

00:23:01   first real VMware Fusion screen comes up and oh my sweet holy, it is ugly. Everything is

00:23:08   blurry. What has happened? And I've never had this experience before and so ignorance

00:23:14   was kind of bliss in the past, because everything was blurry, you could argue. But now it sticks

00:23:19   out like a sore thumb, and I can already tell this is going to get annoying really quickly.

00:23:22   Now, to be fair, that's the only screen I've noticed in using this machine in the last

00:23:27   couple of hours that was like that, but oh my god, it's so blurry. What happened?

00:23:32   Yeah, it was way worse back in 2012. Like, for anybody who bought some of the first generation

00:23:37   of Retina MacBook Pro, like, it was way worse back then because web pages were all just

00:23:41   look terrible. Like, you know, software updated itself pretty quickly, but it took the web

00:23:45   a long time to really get into having high DPI versions of anything. And websites on

00:23:51   retina still, like you'll occasionally run into one now that's not retina, but they're

00:23:55   much fewer and further between than they were in 2012. But, you know, to be fair, VMware

00:24:01   has had three years, and more if they were, you know, once the iPhone 4 came out in 2010

00:24:08   with its retina screen.

00:24:09   You know, any observer would have been like,

00:24:11   "You know, this is probably gonna expand

00:24:13   "for the rest of the lineup.

00:24:14   "We should probably get ready for this."

00:24:16   Then when the retina iPad came out a year later,

00:24:19   "Hmm, you know what?

00:24:20   "We should probably get ready for this."

00:24:22   (laughs)

00:24:23   That was 2011 then, and it's like, okay.

00:24:26   Anybody who is still not retina ready now,

00:24:28   that's their fault, really.

00:24:30   This is beyond reasonable.

00:24:31   - VMware doesn't really have much of a UI,

00:24:34   so maybe they just don't have,

00:24:35   don't dedicate the resources and have the department

00:24:37   is responsible for updating the graphics,

00:24:39   'cause really, you're mostly not looking at VMware

00:24:42   as you are, you're mostly looking at whatever

00:24:43   virtual machine you're using inside the thing, you know?

00:24:47   - Right, and to be fair, this was an installation screen,

00:24:49   and I haven't gotten to the point

00:24:52   that I've put a VM on the machine yet,

00:24:53   but I believe that all of the honest-to-goodness

00:24:56   VMware screens will be retinified,

00:24:59   or whatever you wanna call it, high-res.

00:25:01   - While you're complaining about VMware, by the way,

00:25:02   I have a pet VMware bug that has been with me since 7.0.

00:25:06   I figure what they're up to now,

00:25:07   they're seven point something, point something, whatever.

00:25:10   When seven came out, I had this bug where you'd launch VMware

00:25:13   and it shows me that little screen that shows you

00:25:14   like the virtual machine library

00:25:16   with like the little screenshots of everything.

00:25:18   And if I launch it, that thing comes up

00:25:21   and I quickly double click the VM I wanna launch,

00:25:24   it crashes, right?

00:25:26   If you let it launch,

00:25:27   you let that screen with the little library come up

00:25:29   and you just wait a couple seconds.

00:25:30   It's one of those old school bugs,

00:25:32   like classic Mac OS, cooperative multitasking,

00:25:34   memory corruption, just wait, just let it,

00:25:36   Don't touch anything, just let it sit there.

00:25:39   And then go over and double click, it's fine.

00:25:41   And it's been a repeatable bug through multiple miner,

00:25:44   and I think they even did like a major,

00:25:45   I left a seven point line, I forget, multiple revisions.

00:25:48   Every time it says send a crash report, I do,

00:25:50   I think they're just going to Apple VMware,

00:25:51   probably never sees them, but boy,

00:25:52   I love those kind of bugs where it's like,

00:25:54   just don't touch it, just be careful, just wait,

00:25:56   just wait, wait, okay, now it's good.

00:25:58   (laughing)

00:25:59   What the hell could that possibly be?

00:26:00   I have no idea, anyway.

00:26:02   - So that's basically all I have to say

00:26:04   the computers so far. It does seem very nice. The fans did kick on once or twice as I was

00:26:09   doing an installation or two, and by comparison they were super quiet. I don't know if that

00:26:14   means that they're quieter in general now. I don't know if they're—

00:26:16   Asymmetrical.

00:26:17   Air is pulled into vents and propelled through sculpted cavities by fans with asymmetrically

00:26:24   positioned blades. In most fans, the blades are positioned symmetrically, which creates

00:26:31   a single identifiable frequency. We positioned ours asymmetrically to spread the sound over

00:26:38   a variety of frequencies, which makes it seem quieter and less intrusive. Every part of

00:26:44   the enclosure makes a contribution that directly benefits the user.

00:26:50   Right, and so that's the thing is I've never experienced this for myself. So that was very

00:26:54   exciting. It doesn't sound like a jet engine/hair dryer anymore, which I was very happy about.

00:26:59   So that's all I have to say so far about like software and whatnot.

00:27:02   I will note, however, that this has a Force Touch trackpad.

00:27:06   Yeah.

00:27:07   Marco's favorite thing.

00:27:08   Yeah, so you got four times the pixels and infinitely fewer buttons.

00:27:11   Right.

00:27:12   Still just one fewer, by the way.

00:27:14   [laughs]

00:27:14   Wow.

00:27:16   Anyway, when you first get a brand new Mac with the Force Touch trackpad,

00:27:21   it is the worst trackpad in the entire world.

00:27:25   However, there is a magical switch one can flip.

00:27:28   Wait, hang on, before you talk about the magical switch, what's making you say that when you first get it, it's like the worst ever?

00:27:34   Like, what about it? It comes out of the box, you're not touching anything, you start using it, what repels you?

00:27:38   It's that there's a click, but it's almost, it almost feels like, I don't know, like a fingernail got under the trackpad.

00:27:46   So like, it clicks, but it doesn't feel right. It's almost mushy.

00:27:51   It's almost like a thud.

00:27:52   Yeah, I guess. I don't know, it just, it doesn't have the depth that you expect.

00:27:57   Yes, I understand there is no depth.

00:27:59   It's all an illusion.

00:28:00   I'm just saying, you know,

00:28:01   if you don't really think about that fact

00:28:03   and you're just clicking around,

00:28:05   you're expecting more depth than it has.

00:28:06   It feels like something's broken.

00:28:08   - So you're saying like a finger note,

00:28:10   I call it like a traditional button,

00:28:12   but rather than going all the way down,

00:28:13   it feels like it goes to about like half travel?

00:28:16   - Perfect description.

00:28:17   That's why we keep you around.

00:28:18   That's exactly right.

00:28:19   So I hated it.

00:28:21   I hated immediately.

00:28:22   I had a feeling I was going to be able to get over it,

00:28:25   but I hated it.

00:28:27   But I thought to myself, "Self, why don't you take a look in System Preferences?"

00:28:31   And so I took a look in System Preferences, and sure enough, there is a completely unlabeled,

00:28:37   or two completely unlabeled sliders.

00:28:38   Well, I shouldn't say completely unlabeled.

00:28:41   They're labeled "Click" and "Tracking Speed."

00:28:44   Click did not mean anything to me.

00:28:47   But there's Light, Medium, and Firm as the three options.

00:28:49   And I realized after thinking about it for a second, I was like, "What the hell is--oh!

00:28:54   Right."

00:28:56   When I switched from medium, which was the default, to firm, angels came down from the

00:29:02   heavens and everything was right in the world.

00:29:05   The pressure you apply activates an electromagnet that responds with tactile feedback.

00:29:12   So now instead of just seeing what's happening on the screen, you feel it too.

00:29:22   And I have no problem with this trackpad anymore.

00:29:23   You have no problem with it?

00:29:25   Do you feel like it better?

00:29:27   Is it just like, well, it's acceptable, it's the same as the other one?

00:29:30   You got them right next to each other, you can go back and forth and click, click, click,

00:29:33   click.

00:29:34   So yeah, I'm doing this mostly to get a rise out of Marco.

00:29:37   I wouldn't say I don't have a problem with it.

00:29:40   I wouldn't say I like it more.

00:29:41   I would say I like it marginally less.

00:29:45   It doesn't feel as crisp as it used to.

00:29:47   And there have been occasions when, I think because there is no physical depth to it,

00:29:55   it's misconstrued when I'm dragging or clicking and holding and when I'm not.

00:30:03   It's hard to describe, and I haven't really put my finger on how to like reproduce it,

00:30:06   but there have been occasions where I've thought I've released a click, but my thumb is still

00:30:11   physically resting on the bottom of the trackpad, and the software seems to think that I'm

00:30:17   still holding down on the button.

00:30:19   Have you done the thing that some people have talked about, like with the physical button,

00:30:23   because it was hinged on an edge, we all kept using the thumb, because the thumb is usually

00:30:28   near the bottom, and the bottom part is the easiest place to click.

00:30:30   But when no part of it moves, they're all equally valid, so you can stop using the thumb,

00:30:34   sort of the theory goes, and use whatever finger you're using to control the cursor

00:30:39   is also the finger that you use to click.

00:30:41   And no matter where you do it,

00:30:41   it's the same exact amount of effort required.

00:30:43   Have you tried that?

00:30:44   Is that even a thing?

00:30:45   - My brain understands everything you just said.

00:30:48   My hands are already writhing in revolts for that idea.

00:30:52   - But it should be easier

00:30:53   because it's not coordinating like you're not cording.

00:30:55   You're not trying to like,

00:30:56   "Oh, I press my thumb over here,

00:30:58   but then let me drag my pointer finger over there."

00:31:00   It's all just one thing.

00:31:01   - No, I totally understand what you're saying.

00:31:03   And all snark aside,

00:31:05   I think it would be really hard to train myself

00:31:07   not to use my thumb.

00:31:08   a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I mean, I'm sure I could. It's just, it would be hard

00:31:13   for me to train myself to do that. So I just think like it's one of those things that is

00:31:16   made possible by the forest trust trackpad. And of course, it's not what we're all used

00:31:20   to. But like maybe someone who this is their first laptop ever, like a kid, like just accept

00:31:25   they their habits are built on that. And they would find a barbaric to have to press down

00:31:29   with your thumb on this particular edge of the thing while moving your finger over there.

00:31:32   I don't know. I haven't tried either. I hate trackpads overall, in general. I'm just why

00:31:35   I've heard that from other people.

00:31:36   I'm just wondering if you should give that a try.

00:31:39   Like give it a good chance to be like,

00:31:41   maybe this is better.

00:31:42   Although I think you're about to talk about something else

00:31:44   that is even more potentially blasphemous

00:31:46   about your trackpad habits.

00:31:48   (laughing)

00:31:49   - Before we get there, let me just rebut slightly.

00:31:52   What drives me nuts about the Force Talk's trackpad

00:31:54   is not that I hate it.

00:31:55   I don't hate it.

00:31:57   And I know that the next time I buy a laptop,

00:32:00   it's almost certainly gonna have one

00:32:01   and I'll just have to deal with it.

00:32:02   And that'll be fine.

00:32:03   It's not gonna stop me from buying a new laptop forever.

00:32:06   I'm not gonna hold onto the old version forever

00:32:08   because I don't like this trackpad.

00:32:10   I don't hate it that much.

00:32:12   - It's not your Apple extended keyboard too.

00:32:14   - Right?

00:32:15   But what I find unfortunate about it is that

00:32:19   what you're saying is you're basically

00:32:21   in apology mode for it.

00:32:23   It's like, "Well, this is almost good,"

00:32:25   or "This is great except for this unreliable thing,"

00:32:28   and the click is almost as good as the old one.

00:32:30   you know, it's all these apologetic excusing statements

00:32:34   about it because it really isn't as good.

00:32:37   And what bothers me about this trackpad is that

00:32:44   we had a great trackpad before

00:32:46   that very few people had problems with.

00:32:49   You know, yes, you could only click firmly on the bottom

00:32:51   'cause it was hinged at the top,

00:32:52   but buttons used to be at the bottom.

00:32:54   On many PC laptops, they still are that way.

00:32:57   That's why it was hinged that way.

00:32:58   That's why we used our thumb on the bottom,

00:32:59   and everyone's been fine with that, it's been fine.

00:33:02   More importantly, it was rock solid reliable.

00:33:04   I don't think I've ever mis-clicked on a track pad

00:33:08   that had tap to click disabled.

00:33:10   To go make something, to take something like the track pad

00:33:13   that is such a fundamental thing and to make it even,

00:33:16   even 5% or 1% less reliable,

00:33:20   you know, it's like if every 50th tap to the space bar

00:33:24   just didn't work or inserted an X instead, you know?

00:33:28   making fundamental input methods slightly less reliable

00:33:32   than 100% is, I think, a really big annoyance.

00:33:36   - I think everyone should use mice, but besides the point.

00:33:39   - The fact is, if you're really good with a trackpad

00:33:41   and you don't have tap to click enabled,

00:33:42   it's very reliable.

00:33:44   Like, you very rarely have, like,

00:33:46   unintended results from it, or missed clicks,

00:33:49   or missed gestures, it's very reliable.

00:33:52   With Force Touch, yes, they did something

00:33:55   that's really cool, technically,

00:33:56   But on this fundamental level of reliability,

00:34:00   even if you can get over the feel issue,

00:34:02   which I honestly, I still don't think it's as good,

00:34:04   even on the firm setting.

00:34:06   I've heard that El Capitan makes it better in software.

00:34:10   I have not been able to verify that yet,

00:34:11   but I heard that's better, I don't know.

00:34:14   But even with the click feel aside for now,

00:34:18   which I don't think is a small thing,

00:34:20   but put that aside for now.

00:34:22   The fact that it got even a little bit less reliable,

00:34:25   the fact that it is occasionally misinterpreting

00:34:27   what people want, and you aren't the first person

00:34:29   to say that, Casey.

00:34:30   I had that problem when I owned one for two days.

00:34:33   I've heard many people who still have the same problem

00:34:36   with it where it is a little bit less reliable,

00:34:38   it is like you will occasionally have a mis-drag

00:34:41   or a mis-click or something.

00:34:43   That, to me, is unacceptable.

00:34:46   Why make it worse?

00:34:48   'Cause that is, it's making it worse.

00:34:50   Why take something that is so good--

00:34:52   - I don't know if it is making it,

00:34:53   That's what I was getting at with asking about the habits.

00:34:55   I don't know if it's really making it worse.

00:34:57   It's making it worse for you and for people whose habits are trained on the old one, because

00:35:02   you will find your fingers doing things and acting in ways that were appropriate for the

00:35:05   old device that are not appropriate for the new one.

00:35:07   But I'm not entirely sure that if, you know, like, ignore all of us and say, "This is the

00:35:12   first time anyone ever used a trackpad.

00:35:13   This is their first computer.

00:35:14   They're 10 years old.

00:35:15   They start on this thing."

00:35:17   Is it worse for them?

00:35:19   That's one aspect of it.

00:35:20   The other aspect that you talk about reliability of, like, "I don't want it missing clicks"

00:35:23   and stuff like that.

00:35:24   That may be tied to our habits, but the other aspect of this, think of the iPod click wheel,

00:35:29   remember that thing, the spinning wheel?

00:35:31   Apple quickly got rid of the ring that actually turns and changed it into a ring that does

00:35:36   not turn but that you just slide your finger around this channel.

00:35:40   And people didn't like that either because it was like, well yeah, maybe it was bad because

00:35:43   that ring popped off all the time on the old one.

00:35:45   But I like the fact that it actually moved, now I'm swiping my sweaty finger across plastic

00:35:49   that does not move.

00:35:50   How is that better?

00:35:51   you know, it's just a reduction in moving parts.

00:35:54   Apple loves to reduce moving parts.

00:35:55   This is a reduction in moving parts, kind of, sort of,

00:35:58   mostly.

00:35:59   - Is it?

00:35:59   - It is, I mean, it is because it's like the four sensors,

00:36:01   there's not a crack that opens up,

00:36:03   that like Casey said, fingernails can get into,

00:36:05   food crumbs can get into, that, you know,

00:36:08   setting aside the whole depth and battery thing,

00:36:09   which is, you know, is a big motivator for this,

00:36:11   like it is one fewer moving part and it is more uniform.

00:36:15   It is, like I said, the whole surface is equally tappable.

00:36:18   Maybe it'll take a couple versions to figure out the feel

00:36:21   and stuff like that and the reliability,

00:36:24   I don't know 'cause I don't have one of these.

00:36:25   I don't know if that's just because

00:36:26   your fingers are used to it.

00:36:27   I know that coming from a mouse,

00:36:29   trying to use any kind of trackpad,

00:36:30   I felt like I was just completely unable to,

00:36:35   like I felt like there was a huge barrier

00:36:37   between me and the cursor all of a sudden

00:36:38   because I grew up with a mouse and not a trackpad.

00:36:40   It took me a long time to even become

00:36:41   vaguely competent with a trackpad.

00:36:43   And even now, if I have to click and hold

00:36:44   and drag something with a trackpad,

00:36:46   like with a traditional one,

00:36:47   I have them with actual physical buttons sitting behind me.

00:36:49   I use that one a lot with the regular button all of them. I feel like are terrible and

00:36:53   The force touch trackpad I agree with you that doesn't feel as good to me

00:36:56   But I feel like I'm more reliable clicking and dragging again. I haven't used one for a long period of time

00:37:01   but anyway, I'm I'm willing to believe that

00:37:03   Even though you dislike this thing strongly and it is worse for you. No, no, that's not what I said

00:37:08   I don't dislike it strongly. I just think it's worse

00:37:11   I know even though you even though you think it's worse

00:37:14   I would say it's definitely worse for you so far even though you didn't have a very long time either

00:37:19   But I'm willing to believe that it is going to be better for people who aren't used to the old way

00:37:23   And I'm even willing to believe that could actually be better for you

00:37:25   Three or four years from now when the mechanical ones are totally gone

00:37:28   And you just kind of get used to it so but a mark on your calendar for three years to get from now

00:37:32   And I'll ask you how you're feeling about forced track pads now, okay?

00:37:35   You know but anyway

00:37:36   I like I get Apple is forward-looking and they're saying the same thing with like who's gonna use these track pads

00:37:42   I mean you guys don't remember this

00:37:44   But you used to have track balls down there with a button above and below the trackball and use the trackball either with your thumb

00:37:49   And then with the other thumb on the top button or you use the track trackball with your finger with your thumb on the bottom

00:37:55   button

00:37:56   Some people will use the trackball some people like them and they replaced it with you know code name Midas the touchpad thing people

00:38:02   Like whoa what the hell happened to the trackball? This is worse. I was much better at controlling things

00:38:06   I never had any mistaps or swipes or whatever the ball was easy to control

00:38:10   I could feel it moving back and forth

00:38:12   Eventually, we just all get used to it and no one is like, "This trackpad sucks, I wish

00:38:14   I had a trackball."

00:38:15   Right?

00:38:16   So I feel like this is one of those type of moves where it has the inevitability of fewer

00:38:20   moving parts that is very in line with what Apple does and what technology moves to in

00:38:25   general just because it allows you to make things thinner and lighter and there's fewer

00:38:29   things that slide back and forth against each other.

00:38:32   And I think it may be perfectly acceptable and possibly even better depending on the

00:38:35   habits for new people.

00:38:37   So I still say the jury's out on this thing.

00:38:40   We're going to hear from all the trackball users, by the way.

00:38:42   Yeah, we are.

00:38:43   No one remembers the trackballs in PowerBooks.

00:38:45   Some people still use them.

00:38:46   Like the big external desktop ones, they still make them.

00:38:49   Oh yeah, no, that's the people who don't understand how a mouse works.

00:38:52   I know the people.

00:38:53   It's like you turn it over, the ball goes facing down, guys.

00:38:56   No one remembers mice with balls in them either, I guess.

00:39:00   Oh my god.

00:39:01   I was an expert cleaning mouse balls, let me tell you.

00:39:03   Yeah, yeah, me too.

00:39:04   We get tweezers, peel off the big like, string.

00:39:07   Yeah, it's awesome.

00:39:08   Get it off in one piece.

00:39:09   Yeah.

00:39:10   if you're lucky you come off of one piece.

00:39:12   - Yeah.

00:39:13   - You wouldn't have to scrape it.

00:39:13   Ew, it's so gross.

00:39:15   - Oh my God, this is so amazing.

00:39:17   So yeah, so in case you thought we weren't going

00:39:20   to get enough email, let me make it better.

00:39:23   Trackpads are barbaric.

00:39:24   The only one true mobile pointing device

00:39:27   is the trackpoint, period.

00:39:29   That is the deal.

00:39:30   - You know, I kinda wish we still had trackpoints

00:39:33   like in Apple products because I think I agree with you

00:39:37   because I had I had think pads from ebay back forever ago

00:39:41   before I could get myself like a new laptop. I would get like

00:39:45   old terrible thing pads on ebay every couple of years for like

00:39:49   three hundred dollars. So I had I had track points here and

00:39:53   there briefly in my in my younger years and I like them a lot.

00:39:58   I really really like them a lot, but I wonder if you know if

00:40:03   you know the same way like I thought the sake of Saturn had

00:40:05   had awesome graphics when it came out.

00:40:08   And then I saw it 10 years later

00:40:10   and did not think that anymore.

00:40:12   I wonder, do track points still hold up today?

00:40:16   - Yep, they never held up.

00:40:18   It's like flying the spaceship cursor pointer

00:40:21   with a joystick.

00:40:22   That's what you're doing with the track pad.

00:40:24   You are basically riding on top of the cursor,

00:40:26   which is a spaceship that you are controlling

00:40:28   on the screen with a joystick.

00:40:30   It is not direct manipulation.

00:40:32   Track pads are better than little track points.

00:40:34   I know people like them and they have one advantage which is it allows you to keep your fingers on the keyboard

00:40:38   You just got to move your finger over between the F and the G or ever the hell the thing was in the keyboards and use

00:40:43   It over there and ignore the fact that it's cutting into your key caps a little

00:40:46   And it's good you keep everything in the same place. Like that's that's it's one advantage

00:40:51   Everything else about it sucks like as in how quickly can you move the poor cursor towards something that you want are interested in? Oh

00:40:57   No good

00:41:00   So the thing about it is, if I'm really honest with myself, most of this is nostalgia.

00:41:06   And if you don't know what I'm talking about, the track point on a ThinkPad was almost always

00:41:10   red if not always red.

00:41:12   They were also oftentimes put on Dells among many other manufacturers.

00:41:15   It's the little nubbin that's in between, I think it's actually the G, H, and B keys.

00:41:19   I don't have one in front of me, but I believe that's right.

00:41:21   And so you would push the little nubbin, it kind of was basically a little joystick, you

00:41:24   push a little nubbin, you know, forward and back and side to side.

00:41:28   And there were mouse buttons immediately below the space bar, and that's where the mouse

00:41:33   buttons were.

00:41:34   And I would fly on that track point, and it was so much more accurate to me than I am

00:41:40   on a track pad, even after having a track pad for the last, what, eight years or something

00:41:44   like that?

00:41:45   Ten years?

00:41:46   I still genuinely prefer a track point.

00:41:50   The one place where a track point just completely falls down is multi-touch, in terms of, like,

00:41:56   swiping.

00:41:57   What do they call it now? Is it Exposé now or is it Mission Control now?

00:42:00   I feel like they're always changing the name.

00:42:01   I've lost track.

00:42:02   Mission Control as of a couple years ago.

00:42:04   Okay, so the Mission Control thing where you can swipe between desktops, I use that constantly.

00:42:11   And not being able to do that, what is it, three finger swipe?

00:42:14   Not being able to do that three finger swipe would absolutely ruin me on a Mac.

00:42:19   But anytime I'm on a desktop, excuse me, anytime I'm on a PC, if it's a PC that has a track

00:42:26   point, that's immediately where I'm reaching. Because I just think it's better, and I am

00:42:33   still more accurate with it, even though I never use one anymore. But to be fair, I think

00:42:37   a lot of that is nostalgia, and it's because it's what I grew up on, because my dad worked

00:42:41   for IBM, and so I was always using old Thinkpads, just like Marco. And so I've always, always,

00:42:47   always used track points up until I started using Macs. So yeah, so I still think the

00:42:52   track point's the way to go, and Jon, you're entitled to your opinion as wrong as it may

00:42:55   Please don't email us these are things you don't have opinions about these things you can test

00:42:59   You can have just you know a series of targets that you have to get and measure time

00:43:03   Accuracy and like you can actually figure this stuff out for an individual person

00:43:07   For people in general if you get enough testers like we don't have to just you know in theory this could be tested

00:43:12   Yeah, you could also test whether vinyl sounds good or not, but when have I ever cared about that also been done

00:43:17   You're right that can't be tested in has been so check all right

00:43:22   By the way, have you ever seen the mouse with the track point in it?

00:43:25   We had them like think of where you think of where your scroll reel is that seems crazy to me

00:43:29   It's like you've got a mouse in your hand

00:43:31   Some sometimes people just like to have something to fiddle with their fingers

00:43:35   Hey, we've at least we've been calling it the nubbin we've been staying away from the various other names for this thing. That's yeah

00:43:43   We're doing well. The other thing I wanted to say is

00:43:47   I

00:43:49   happen to think that track points are terrible, but as

00:43:52   Excuse me, not track points touch pads are terrible

00:43:55   But as touch pads go the Apple touch pads are far and away

00:44:00   Leaps and bounds better than any other touch pad I've ever used and I think oh, yeah

00:44:04   And I think the multi touch has a lot to do with that

00:44:06   But to me the biggest reason that's true is because of the sheer size of the touch pad

00:44:12   Because maybe it's different recently in newer PCs. I haven't used a terribly modern PC in a year or two

00:44:18   But on PCs up until at least a couple of years ago

00:44:22   The track pads were tiny they were postage stamps compared to what you get on an Apple on an Apple device

00:44:29   And that just made it impossible to me

00:44:32   It's like have you ever seen someone to use a mouse on a space that is nowhere near big enough for that mouse

00:44:38   Yeah, they used to sell they would sell like mouse pads. They were like four inches by four inches, right?

00:44:43   Was that even a mouse pad? Yeah, it's just the word

00:44:45   And so all you hear is, the entire time they're using this,

00:44:48   all you hear is, (clicking)

00:44:51   because they're constantly picking up the damn mouse

00:44:53   and putting it back on the table.

00:44:55   It's the worst.

00:44:55   - Yeah, you ever see them use it at a point of sale

00:44:58   and they don't have a place for the mouse?

00:45:00   It's like wedged between the monitor and the little thing,

00:45:02   so they're literally using it with a half a centimeter

00:45:05   of slop, and so like, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump,

00:45:08   thump, thump, thump, thump, thump.

00:45:09   They have to pick it up every three pixels

00:45:10   they move the thing.

00:45:11   Sometimes they're using it upside down.

00:45:13   You ever see those people?

00:45:14   No, that I've not seen.

00:45:15   All right, that was a big thing back in the early days

00:45:17   where people weren't familiar with mice

00:45:19   and they would get one and, you know, whatever.

00:45:21   There's no clear way you're supposed to use it

00:45:23   if you've never used one before.

00:45:24   So they would turn it around

00:45:25   so that the wire is coming out sort of towards them.

00:45:28   And you know, the mouse works fine like that.

00:45:29   It's like inverted y-axis in a video game, right?

00:45:32   And they would press the button,

00:45:33   either the single button or double with their palm,

00:45:35   the left or right side of their palm.

00:45:36   And some people just got used to using a mouse like that.

00:45:39   And that was just it.

00:45:40   That's like, that's the way they're gonna use the mouse

00:45:41   for the rest of their life.

00:45:42   And if someone eventually would come up to them and say,

00:45:43   and say, "No, no, no, it goes around the other way,

00:45:45   "and put your fingers over here."

00:45:46   And they'd be like, "Oh, well I like it the other way."

00:45:48   Like you get used to an inverted Y,

00:45:50   you get used to using the buttons with your palms,

00:45:52   and that's it.

00:45:53   Who's to say that's bad, really?

00:45:54   I mean, you kind of run over the cord a little bit,

00:45:56   but, you know, that's all you get used to.

00:45:58   Some people are left-handed too, can you believe that?

00:46:01   (laughing)

00:46:02   - Now, are you sure those weren't just trackball users

00:46:04   that you were misinterpreting as mouse users?

00:46:06   - No, I've seen this, I've seen this in real life

00:46:08   multiple times, widely separated geographically,

00:46:11   and over periods of time,

00:46:12   who use the mouse upside down.

00:46:14   - I've never seen that.

00:46:15   - Well, I'm with you, Casey.

00:46:16   I would rather use a force touch track pad

00:46:19   on a MacBook One set to the squishiest setting

00:46:24   than use the best PC track pad available.

00:46:27   - Oh, yeah.

00:46:28   - I think it's not just the size, too.

00:46:29   It's also, I don't know if they're not made of glass

00:46:31   'cause it's too expensive, but they're always made out of,

00:46:33   like, sometimes it's textured plastic

00:46:35   or some other kind of plastic that feels bad

00:46:37   or ends up getting bubbles or wrinkles in it.

00:46:40   It just feels like the cheapest thing you've ever felt in your life.

00:46:44   Apple has traveled the same trajectory.

00:46:45   The original code name Midas Trackpad on the first PowerBook was plasticky and garbagey

00:46:51   and terrible.

00:46:52   That's what Windows trackpads are like now.

00:46:55   Apple slowly progressed making its trackpads, and the Midas trackpad was really tiny.

00:46:59   It was like the size of the two combined mouse buttons on my mouse.

00:47:02   And Apple just kept making them bigger and bigger and bigger and making the button part

00:47:05   smaller and smaller and then removing the button part and making it glass.

00:47:09   PC manufacturers said, "You know what? We can just slap a piece of plastic on here with

00:47:12   some cheap sensor underneath it." That's fine.

00:47:14   Fair enough. The only other thing I wanted to say, because I don't think I've ticked

00:47:19   off enough people yet this evening, I use tap-to-click. And I just wanted to throw it

00:47:25   out there. I don't have a problem with it. I don't see why everyone's so worked up about

00:47:28   it. I don't see what the issue is. I don't typically click by way of tapping, but I can

00:47:35   go either way. I can swing either way, and I'm okay with that.

00:47:38   Are you just using Tap to Click now with a new thing or have you always used it?

00:47:41   No, always.

00:47:42   Well then you have no reason to ever complain about missed clicks or accidental clicks.

00:47:45   Right.

00:47:46   You're just doing this to yourself.

00:47:47   Yeah, you deserve any unreliability in tapping that you get.

00:47:51   I think Tap to Click, I'm not super anti Tap to Click.

00:47:55   Here's what I think about Tap to Click.

00:47:57   If you are a Tap to Click wizard, I think it's better.

00:48:00   I feel like it's the expert mode because you don't have to apply a lot of pressure.

00:48:04   If you have somehow trained yourself to magically dance your fingers across the surface and

00:48:08   you can walk that line between putting your finger down into the thing and tapping to

00:48:14   click, it is more efficient because you don't have to press hard, right?

00:48:18   But I know I can't do it.

00:48:20   I know when I enable it, I get missed clicks all the time.

00:48:22   And I try to do it.

00:48:23   I would like to be a tap to click wizard, but I'm just not, right?

00:48:26   And almost everyone else I've ever seen, they accidentally tap to click too.

00:48:30   And they're just willing to accept the error rate as just the cost of doing business.

00:48:33   I mean my own mother uses it because it's just more comfortable

00:48:36   you don't have to press as hard there is sort of a a luxury and a kind of a

00:48:39   Higher level of user interface like it's one step removed from just waving your hands in front of something a minority report style

00:48:46   Or what the hell is that thing called the track pointy thing remember that I actually use that I?

00:48:51   Attached to my computer was cool the thing where you can like put your hand over this little bar

00:48:55   And you see like these five points for your five fingertips and move them around

00:48:57   What what let me go look at my application follow you guys all remember?

00:49:02   well anyway, I so I actually I one of the reasons why I think I resist tap to

00:49:09   click is because I secretly want to be a tap to click wizard. I would love it if

00:49:14   I was really good at it and really used to it because it does seem like it would

00:49:18   be superior if it was perfect and it's silent and there's lots of times like

00:49:23   I'm using a laptop in bed trying to get some work done before going to sleep or

00:49:25   something like there's lots of times or like even while podcasting. I would love

00:49:30   to get a magic trackpad and be able to tap to click on it comfortably and then have silent

00:49:36   mousing while podcasting. You know, stuff like that. I would love that, but I've tried

00:49:41   it here and there for a couple days at a time and just could never get into it.

00:49:45   And it's not that it's not reliable. It has a threshold. This is a tap and this is not

00:49:49   a tap, right? It's just that you can't walk that line. Very often, you will find your

00:49:53   fingers hitting the pad with enough force to go over that threshold and you didn't mean

00:49:56   to and you don't have control of that threshold really either.

00:50:00   So I think it is as reliable as a button.

00:50:03   It's like if you press with this amount of force, I consider it to click.

00:50:05   If you press anything less than that, I don't.

00:50:06   But you find your fingers hitting the thing and causing taps when you didn't want to.

00:50:11   By the way, the name of the thing was called Leap Motion.

00:50:12   Don't you remember it?

00:50:13   Leap Motion?

00:50:14   I feel like I've heard that name.

00:50:15   Go click the link I just put in the chat room or in the show notes.

00:50:18   You'll remember it.

00:50:19   I had one of them.

00:50:20   I tried it out when the SDK was in like beta or whatever.

00:50:22   It was really neat and cool and fun to use in the demo.

00:50:24   I'm not sure how you could use it to control any piece of software, but it was a cool tech demo

00:50:28   I have never heard of or seen this in my life. You had to have we had it in like the show notes

00:50:33   I think for this show of some point what I mean, it's that's possible

00:50:37   I don't have that good of memory, but I don't think I've ever seen that before could have been a different show

00:50:41   I'm a lot of podcasts anyway

00:50:43   Take a look at the videos

00:50:44   This is a real thing and the demo is like you can get this thing stick it in front of your Mac and do the

00:50:49   Thing they show in the demo and it works like it shows in the demo what I'm just not sure about is like okay

00:50:53   Can I is it useful for me to use to control my mouse pointer?

00:50:58   Probably not is it useful for gaming maybe maybe someone can make a cool game with it

00:51:02   There is a lot of noise and kind of fuzz and the thing and there's a lot of freedom of where you can put your

00:51:07   Limbs in front of it. So there's the potential to be sort of miscalibrated enough, but sure is an interesting piece of technology

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00:54:24   - All right, so Marco, tell us about what you think

00:54:26   is happening with the iPhone 6C.

00:54:29   - Is this that interesting?

00:54:30   So I don't know.

00:54:31   So there's been all the, everyone's speculating that,

00:54:35   you know, that we've had the iPhone 5C,

00:54:36   which was like the redone iPhone 5

00:54:38   with the plastic case and everything.

00:54:41   And, you know, everyone's now saying,

00:54:44   Well, we hope this fall when the new iPhones come out,

00:54:46   there's gonna be a 6C, and everyone's kind of expecting it

00:54:48   as if it's fact, like, oh yeah, there's gonna be a 6C,

00:54:50   they're gonna redo the internals and everything,

00:54:52   and it'll be the 6's guts in a plastic,

00:54:55   four-inch, inexpensive phone.

00:54:57   I said on Twitter earlier this week,

00:55:00   I don't see that happening at all,

00:55:02   because the simple reason is that we always,

00:55:06   for the last many years now, we have seen

00:55:09   pretty solid, healthy events of parts leaks

00:55:13   in the late summer leading up to the fall iPhone releases.

00:55:16   Because the fact is the supply chain for making millions

00:55:21   and millions of iPhones to be bought all at once,

00:55:23   like on day one, this just, like, it is very unrealistic

00:55:27   to expect that they would have a brand new model of iPhone,

00:55:33   even if it isn't the top of the line one,

00:55:35   that they would have a brand new model using a new casing

00:55:37   and new parts, and those parts wouldn't be leaking

00:55:40   at all yet.

00:55:41   It is possible.

00:55:42   I just think it's unlikely.

00:55:44   And so I think if there was going to be a 6C,

00:55:48   there would be some changes to the casing, certainly,

00:55:50   even if it looked kind of the same,

00:55:52   there's always minor variation.

00:55:54   Whenever there's like an S model,

00:55:57   where like the case stays basically the same,

00:55:59   but there's like new guts,

00:56:01   the parts are actually different enough,

00:56:03   even on the casing, those always leak.

00:56:05   And those in fact have leaked already

00:56:06   for what is called in quotes the iPhone 6S,

00:56:10   presumably like the main iPhone 6 update for this fall,

00:56:14   we are, like, there have already been leaked parts for that.

00:56:17   There was a back case, there was a screen.

00:56:19   So we have seen nothing else, though.

00:56:22   We haven't even seen the 6S Plus parts leaked yet.

00:56:25   I assume there will be one,

00:56:26   'cause it would be weird if there wasn't,

00:56:27   but, you know, so all we've seen so far is the 6S parts.

00:56:31   I would assume, based on that, then,

00:56:33   that we're not gonna see any new,

00:56:35   totally new-looking external cases,

00:56:38   and that we're probably not even gonna see

00:56:39   iPhone 5 or an iPhone 6C. I think the iPhone 5C falls out of the lineup or replaces the

00:56:45   4S, which is still for sale today in some markets, right? Isn't that like in like some

00:56:48   like India and China markets, isn't that still for sale, the 4S?

00:56:51   I think so. I don't know. I mean, I remember when they were saying they were keeping it,

00:56:55   but only in certain regions, but I don't know how long.

00:56:57   Right. So, I assume, I think it's probably safe to assume that everything basically moves

00:57:01   down a step. So, you have the 5C moving into that spot. In the US and in a lot of like,

00:57:07   you know, rich countries basically,

00:57:09   you have the cheapest phone becoming the 5S,

00:57:13   and then you have the old 6 and 6 Plus maybe,

00:57:16   at least the old 6, maybe the 6 Plus, who knows,

00:57:18   and then the new 6S and 6S Plus.

00:57:21   I think that's the lineup, and I don't think there's,

00:57:24   it doesn't seem like it's that hard to predict.

00:57:26   And you know, maybe there's gonna be a new,

00:57:28   you know, rose gold color people are speculating,

00:57:30   who knows, but I don't think we're gonna see

00:57:31   a new low-end model.

00:57:34   - I think that's a shame though,

00:57:35   because I think the 5C had a lot of really good attributes.

00:57:38   So obviously the guts are now outdated or whatever,

00:57:41   and if you're gonna keep a phone like that in a lineup,

00:57:44   you'd have to change the innards.

00:57:46   But that's what we're talking about,

00:57:47   like the new iPod touch,

00:57:48   like, oh, an A8 in a 5C size case,

00:57:51   like you could make that into a replacement 5C type phone,

00:57:56   which would be the old four inch screen,

00:57:58   the things that has going for it,

00:57:59   for the people that you can ask someone who owns them,

00:58:00   why did you get this?

00:58:02   We all know somebody who is like an iOS developer or an otherwise tech nerd who usually gets

00:58:07   the best fanciest phone but decided to get a 5C.

00:58:10   What's so great about the 5C?

00:58:11   Number one, it comes in colors.

00:58:13   People like colors.

00:58:15   Just people like them.

00:58:16   You want to have a phone with a white back or a yellow back or whatever, these are your

00:58:20   choices or you can just get a case and slap it in the number.

00:58:22   People like things that come in colors.

00:58:24   The iPods, the Taurus, anything.

00:58:25   Number two, it's super comfortable.

00:58:27   Nice curved back like the plastic.

00:58:28   The people who have them and like them say one of the reasons they like it is it feels

00:58:32   Especially compared to the stupid 5 and 5s with the little sharp chamfered edge crap like not as comfortable in your hand

00:58:38   and

00:58:40   Those two things may sound stupid like who cares whatever how comfortable it is

00:58:44   Just a big rectangle of the screen what color it is those things matter especially in product lines, and I think that

00:58:51   You know

00:58:52   Maybe didn't solve their expectations. Maybe they didn't think it was worth it

00:58:55   Maybe it's better to just keep using the tooling from other things. I'm not saying it has to be in the 5c thing

00:59:00   I just think those are things that Apple should bring to its phones and they are kind of like giving you know over time there

00:59:05   Have been more and more variations in all the products even their laptops this point you can get in gold and space gray and stuff

00:59:10   right

00:59:11   Expanding the repertoire of things you can buy and if Apple wants to segment its line

00:59:16   You can know they kind of do like it used to be like aluminum was for the expensive ones and then plastic for the cheaper

00:59:21   ones they went all aluminum and

00:59:23   You could have a more kind of refined line of colors with space gray and gold and black or whatever for the fancy high-end phones

00:59:30   And then as you go middle or lower have them come in 700 different colors, right?

00:59:34   You know have different colors change every year and I think Marco and Twitter you're making fun of little case with the holes and it

00:59:39   Was mixing and matching things like that's silly. They're overpriced people like to do stuff like that

00:59:43   Maybe that particular design was ugly and didn't sell well

00:59:46   but I really really think that

00:59:49   Apple should bring back at some point into its lineup of phones a

00:59:53   Selection of colors and a more comfortable thing to hold

00:59:57   And if it's not going to be this generation then hopefully like whenever they do the big revision for the seven or rather

01:00:01   They're gonna call it

01:00:02   Well, but I mean and first of all I should point out that I'm total hypocrite as I as I'm sitting there saying who the heck

01:00:08   Ever bought multiple holy cases for their iPhone 5c's. I also own three Apple watch bands

01:00:13   But anyway, I'm so angry that I didn't get to point that out and you thought of it

01:00:17   Sorry, but also, you know

01:00:20   If you look at the direction Apple's going with their product designs all of the laptops now are metal

01:00:26   They've been that way for a long time.

01:00:28   They just don't use that as a differentiator anymore.

01:00:30   They use other things.

01:00:31   All the iPads are metal.

01:00:32   Plastic never reached the iPad line.

01:00:35   If you look at the iPhone line,

01:00:38   the iPhone 6 is holdable and comfortable for nobody.

01:00:42   (laughing)

01:00:43   - It's more comfortable than the 5,

01:00:45   other than it slipping out of your hand.

01:00:46   Don't you feel like the edges at least,

01:00:47   the rounded edges are more comfortable?

01:00:49   - Oh yes, they are much more comfortable

01:00:51   for as long as they're in your hand,

01:00:52   and then they fall out.

01:00:53   - Yeah, I know.

01:00:54   I'm just saying, like that's,

01:00:55   I know what you're getting at,

01:00:56   like they're going for all metal,

01:00:57   but I think metal is a poor fit for all of your phones.

01:01:02   It may be a poor fit for any of your phones.

01:01:05   Just look at how they've struggled

01:01:06   with the antenna lines and everything.

01:01:09   - Oh sure, no, but I agree with you.

01:01:11   However, I'm just saying realistically what they're doing,

01:01:14   it sure does seem, and I heard from,

01:01:17   back when I was first complaining

01:01:18   about the iPhone 6 design, which now seems like forever ago,

01:01:21   I heard from a couple of Apple people

01:01:22   who were kind of coyly suggesting,

01:01:25   "Well, what if the rationale wasn't stated?"

01:01:27   They would never actually say this is why we did it,

01:01:29   but the clearly suggested rationale was

01:01:33   basically your naked robotic core theory of like,

01:01:36   we will just make the thinnest, lightest phone,

01:01:40   the smallest, thinnest, lightest thing,

01:01:43   and then you can customize it with cases

01:01:46   to give it either more battery life or a better feel.

01:01:51   And I did, with the iPhone 6,

01:01:54   this is the first phone that I'm constantly using a case on because I'm using Apple's

01:01:58   leather case because I just needed some more friction.

01:02:00   But it is a valid product strategy.

01:02:01   I'm not even saying that's the wrong thing to do because if faced with this option, this

01:02:05   is a great way to go because you're like, do whatever you want with the case.

01:02:09   We'll make a whole bunch of really nice cases.

01:02:11   You can buy a bunch of third party cases when you drop your phone, when you ding it, when

01:02:14   something spills on it, when you scratch it.

01:02:16   Get a new case because all that damage is happening to the case, which if you buy from

01:02:19   Apple is $70 or if it's in leather, suck the plastic.

01:02:22   But let's ignore that for now and just say,

01:02:24   look, this is a good plan.

01:02:26   Naked robotic core is a viable, good strategy.

01:02:29   - Well, see, I disagree with you there.

01:02:31   - All right, so what part of that don't you like?

01:02:34   - The problem is that if you,

01:02:36   let's say you have the naked robotic, you know,

01:02:38   fish phone in the middle there that feels like nothing,

01:02:40   and this is bar soap, okay.

01:02:43   That phone with, let's say you want

01:02:45   a little bit more battery life, so you buy a battery case.

01:02:49   A battery case attached to the phone

01:02:51   is always going to be bigger and worse

01:02:55   than just building that in to begin with.

01:02:57   - I agree with you for the battery.

01:02:58   I'm thinking only for fashion and protection.

01:03:00   Like for what color do you want it in

01:03:02   and do you want something to be grippier

01:03:04   or soak up nicks or whatever battery you write

01:03:07   because you're forced to have two layers there

01:03:10   and then all the stuff.

01:03:11   Although people still do it, right?

01:03:13   And I still think it becomes a viable thing,

01:03:16   but it's inefficient.

01:03:16   I agree with you that basically

01:03:18   that the trade-off that Apple makes

01:03:20   its phone line between thinness and battery life, we talked about this a million times,

01:03:23   there is definitely a place in the lineup for a phone that Apple sells that makes a

01:03:26   different trade-off.

01:03:27   Oh, and by the way, if your most important thing is you need really good battery life,

01:03:30   we sell you one that is way thicker than our other ones, you know, a millimeter or whatever

01:03:34   the hell we think way thicker is these days, that gives you more battery.

01:03:38   And at this point, like the 6 Plus is kind of that model just because it's got the bigger

01:03:42   battery, but Apple just does not offer a phone that's like this.

01:03:45   So they force you to get these big humpback, speaking of humps on things, these big humpback

01:03:48   things that you're right.

01:03:49   to have a layer of plastic of metal, the battery,

01:03:52   another layer of plastic of metal, then a connector thing,

01:03:55   and then it just makes your phone way bigger

01:03:57   than it would be if you built it in.

01:03:58   But for the color and protection stuff,

01:04:00   I think negative robotic core is a reasonably viable

01:04:02   strategy, but also, so is selling plastic phones

01:04:06   that are comfortable and come in a bunch of colors.

01:04:08   - Well, but so going back to the feel and protection issue

01:04:12   though, I would say that selling a plastic phone

01:04:16   and selling thicker metal phones,

01:04:18   that is a better strategy than selling all thin bar soap phones and letting you put cases

01:04:23   on afterwards. Because the fact is, people are always going to put cases on if they want

01:04:26   a case. Like anybody who wants extra protection for their phone for dropping and everything,

01:04:31   they're going to use a case no matter what shape or material the phone is. Doesn't matter.

01:04:35   For people who don't want to put cases on their phone, you know, and there's I think

01:04:40   a lot of those people and I think a lot of Apple people. So I just took out my, I got

01:04:44   my 5S here, and my 5S with no case,

01:04:48   which is how I used it because it's very comfortable

01:04:50   for me with no case, is thinner and lighter

01:04:54   than my iPhone 6 with the big leather case on it.

01:04:57   The argument of the battery being better if it's built in,

01:05:01   that applies also to the feel of the phone.

01:05:03   So I'm both agreeing with your earlier point

01:05:06   and disagreeing with your most recent point

01:05:08   where I think that the Nicaragua Core Strategy

01:05:11   falls over here because I think you're better off

01:05:13   just making phones to begin with

01:05:16   that can be used without cases

01:05:18   and have good battery life if you want those.

01:05:20   And if you want even more battery life

01:05:22   and if you want an even bigger, grippier,

01:05:24   more protective case,

01:05:25   those are options you can add on as well.

01:05:27   People always will do that.

01:05:28   But the basic phone, I think, needs to be better

01:05:32   than what we got with the 6.

01:05:34   - I think that all the phones

01:05:35   have been pretty darn slippery, right?

01:05:38   That is not as if the 6 is so--

01:05:40   - By the way, you never actually owned any of the other ones.

01:05:42   my wife had a 4s and a 5 with and without the case.

01:05:47   And you know, they've been around,

01:05:49   and of course I've felt other people once,

01:05:50   like you're right that the 6 is slipperier.

01:05:52   A lot of that has to do with the size change,

01:05:54   like that's why your 5 and 5s are lighter

01:05:56   because they're smaller phones, right?

01:05:57   - Sure.

01:05:58   - But I always like grippy phones.

01:06:01   Like I always like a case that's like silicone

01:06:03   or something like that and a leather one.

01:06:04   I need that grippiness.

01:06:05   You can't build in that grippiness

01:06:07   because by the nature of that grippiness,

01:06:10   it wears out, it scratches, it dents, it peels away,

01:06:13   it is subject to abrasions.

01:06:15   You just can't build that into the phone.

01:06:16   So you're gonna make the phone out of something,

01:06:18   it has to be something that's smooth and hard and shiny,

01:06:22   whether it's plastic or metal, because you can't,

01:06:24   like it would be terrible to make a phone that you buy

01:06:27   that basically like the whole back of it is leather, right?

01:06:29   But I like the feel of something that is backed by leather.

01:06:32   So it has to be a removable case for that material.

01:06:35   What you're saying is like the 4S with a glass back

01:06:37   or whatever, or the 5 with the metal thing,

01:06:39   like make it of a sturdy material that doesn't scratch

01:06:43   and doesn't wear out and isn't really subject to abrasions,

01:06:45   but also isn't slippery.

01:06:47   And that is really difficult to do.

01:06:48   So I feel like if you're either gonna go

01:06:51   naked robotic core for metal,

01:06:52   or you're gonna go non-metal material

01:06:54   that is nevertheless pretty hard.

01:06:56   You're never gonna be able to, you shouldn't, I think,

01:06:58   make a phone that has like integrated rubber grips

01:07:02   or indicated silicone things,

01:07:03   because you're just asking for the phone

01:07:05   to get dinged up and ugly.

01:07:06   And then it's like, oh, I can't take this off.

01:07:08   it's not a case, it's part of the phone.

01:07:10   - God, this 5S feels great.

01:07:12   - Speaking of the 5S on Twitter,

01:07:14   I forget who was saying it on Twitter,

01:07:16   maybe it was the tipster, maybe it was someone else,

01:07:17   talking about how Apple was having difficult

01:07:20   with the 5 and the 5S.

01:07:22   - It was the 5 only, yeah,

01:07:24   'cause I was asking with the 5C whether it was a failure

01:07:28   and what the reason was for it.

01:07:30   It apparently got better margins

01:07:33   and my question was,

01:07:35   would would continuing to make the five with just just the

01:07:39   advances in time and mass production. Would they have had

01:07:42   similar margins like it was really that much worth it and

01:07:44   the answer apparently was yes, because on the fuck remember

01:07:48   the five and the five s the the black color was different

01:07:51   between the two. The five had a very, very dark black color. I

01:07:55   think it was called space, but whatever it was called the five

01:07:58   s got lighter and called it space grave anyway. The the

01:08:01   black finish on the five shipped and flaked off really,

01:08:06   really easily and most of the time like I like on my five. I

01:08:10   saw this most of the time. It would show up on the on the

01:08:12   edges, the chamfered edges where you'd see the bright

01:08:16   colored aluminum shining through the like the black

01:08:18   finish where it had like shipped off and everything so

01:08:21   apparently that was such a big problem for apple and getting

01:08:24   yields on that and everything. The tipster said that that that

01:08:28   was one of the biggest reasons that they switch to the plastic

01:08:31   the 5C rather than continuing to make those black cases as the 5A went down the lineup

01:08:37   because any phone they make where they don't do a 5C and replace it, which has been every

01:08:40   other one, these are made for like what, four years? They're made for a long time. It isn't

01:08:46   just the year they're the newest phone. So if there was an issue of like this thing is

01:08:50   proving to not age well or have too low manufacturing yields, it might be worth it for them to switch

01:08:56   out the entire casing and redesign the whole thing. And so that was clearly a contributing

01:09:01   factor very likely to the 5C's existence. But we don't have that now.

01:09:05   Well, they talk about yields, what they're basically talking about, and we can remember

01:09:08   back to the, what was it, the white-backed, you know, the 4 or 4S series, the white ones,

01:09:13   remember? Like, where they're talking about the yields, what they're talking about is

01:09:15   they build this phone, like it goes down the manufacturing line, and at some point in the

01:09:19   manufacturing process, there's a random sampling of things, and you look at them and say, "Does

01:09:22   this pass our quality standards, and what are our standards? Can it not have any nicks?

01:09:26   It has to be uniform color.

01:09:27   Because whatever their standards are,

01:09:28   and Apple standards are pretty darn high in terms of it

01:09:31   has to basically be perfect looking to the naked eye,

01:09:34   and maybe even with magnifying things.

01:09:36   The ones that aren't perfect, it's like rejected.

01:09:38   Like this one came off the line.

01:09:40   It's an iPhone 5.

01:09:41   It's black all over, except for this one little part

01:09:43   here where a flake came off and it's shiny.

01:09:44   Rejected.

01:09:45   And every time you do that, it costs you money,

01:09:47   because you spent all this time manufacturing this phone,

01:09:49   and now it didn't pass QA, and you

01:09:51   don't get to sell that as a phone.

01:09:52   All the parts have to be recycled back,

01:09:54   and you start over and try again.

01:09:55   So that's what we're talking about when we talk about yields for these things. It's all down to what your standards are

01:09:59   I think what your conversation on Twitter was one of the things that was offered was that

01:10:03   The way Apple dealt with this yield problem eventually was they started lowering their standards a little bit just to like to not have not to

01:10:09   Be rejecting what I don't know what the percentages are. And again, this is all speculative rumor blah blah blah

01:10:13   We don't know this is all true

01:10:14   But these are all things that sound plausible because we know for a fact that all

01:10:17   manufacturing have some sort of quality control process and we know based on what Apple sells that their quality control processes must be pretty

01:10:23   tight because every time you open up one of those apple boxes and look at that thing under

01:10:26   a jeweler's loop, it's pretty darn, I mean look at the freaking watch.

01:10:30   It's pretty amazing what they do on a massive scale.

01:10:34   And it doesn't take much to throw that off to say now this is costing us big bucks because

01:10:39   if our yield goes off by just some small percentage or fraction of a percentage, that's a big

01:10:44   deal to us.

01:10:45   But setting all of that aside, colors are cool and the 5C is really comfortable.

01:10:49   I'm still a big fan of that idea of a phone, if not that specific phone because now the

01:10:53   innards are all old.

01:10:54   Yeah, it's funny because on a daily basis, I typically have my hands on three different

01:10:59   generations of iPhone.

01:11:00   I have a 6.

01:11:02   I have it in a leather case.

01:11:03   I've used cases since—shoot, I think I had one on my 4s.

01:11:09   I did not have one on my 3gs, if memory serves.

01:11:12   And I had one on my 5s.

01:11:14   So I am a case kind of guy.

01:11:17   That being said, Marco, I completely agree with you that even if I wasn't into cases

01:11:21   for my phones. For the 6, I would absolutely have had to put one on, because I do agree

01:11:26   that it is slippier than any other iPhone I've owned. But anyway, on a daily basis,

01:11:32   I will typically have my 6 in my hand at some point. I'll have Aaron's 5S in my hand at

01:11:38   some point. That's in the Apple leather case, just like mine is. And we use my old 3GS as

01:11:45   a white noise machine for Declan when he's sleeping. And so I'll typically pick that

01:11:49   up to turn on the white noise.

01:11:51   My 3GS was a "You Look Nice Today" on loop player for Adam while he was sleeping when

01:11:55   he was a baby.

01:11:56   Yep, see?

01:11:58   Exactly.

01:11:59   So, because of that, I feel like I have a pretty good span of several different models,

01:12:07   and to my hand, the 5S is far and away the most comfortable.

01:12:12   I agree with you, Jon, that the 5C is actually more comfortable, but we don't have one in

01:12:16   the house.

01:12:18   So if I were just truly for comfort, if I were to pick a new iPhone tomorrow, it would

01:12:24   be a perp—my ideal iPhone tomorrow is the guts of a "6s" in the case of a 5s.

01:12:31   That's if you have to hold it, but what if you have to start actually looking at the

01:12:34   screen?

01:12:35   Completely agree.

01:12:36   In that case, I have to have a 6.

01:12:38   I still think the 6 Plus is a little bit freakishly large, but maybe if I had one, I would change

01:12:43   my tune.

01:12:44   Well, it's interesting.

01:12:45   So I know this is very, very unlikely.

01:12:49   It's almost certain not to happen in this revision,

01:12:51   and it's even very unlikely for the iPhone 7, I think,

01:12:55   or for any iPhone, just because of the nature,

01:12:56   but what I would love is if the DLC space black

01:13:00   watch finish was available on an iPhone.

01:13:05   And I don't know enough about the materials to say

01:13:07   it would probably have to be made of stainless steel.

01:13:09   I don't know if this could bond to aluminum

01:13:11   in the correct way.

01:13:13   But so obviously this is a massive stretch

01:13:15   of the imagination.

01:13:17   But if you could do it, if you could have

01:13:20   the stainless steel DLC coating from the space black watch

01:13:24   on a phone somehow, whether it's made from steel or not,

01:13:27   don't care, if you could do that,

01:13:30   that I think would be perfect because,

01:13:32   although it's probably gonna be heavier unfortunately,

01:13:35   but that'd be great because the space black coating

01:13:38   is extremely durable, it looks great,

01:13:41   is very dark, but it looks great,

01:13:43   and it kind of feels like it's almost like a wrapped

01:13:46   in vinyl kind of feeling.

01:13:48   It does not feel like slippery metal.

01:13:49   It is a little bit tackier, it's a little bit more friction.

01:13:53   It almost feels like plastic.

01:13:55   - Yeah.

01:13:56   - That would be amazing.

01:13:57   - I completely agree.

01:13:58   - Or they could make it out of plastic.

01:14:00   (laughing)

01:14:01   It almost feels like plastic.

01:14:02   We have that, we can do that, it's plastic.

01:14:04   (laughing)

01:14:05   Make it kind of like a not so shiny kind of matte finish,

01:14:08   really hard plastic.

01:14:09   It could be unapologetically plastic,

01:14:10   - Someone said that once.

01:14:11   - Oh, God.

01:14:12   - That's great.

01:14:13   (laughing)

01:14:14   Yeah, so probably not gonna happen

01:14:15   because of the materials and cost involved, but--

01:14:17   - And weight, you called that weight.

01:14:19   Like, why not make it out of,

01:14:20   what is that big cylinder you have?

01:14:21   - Tungsten, yeah.

01:14:22   - Yeah, make a tungsten phone.

01:14:24   - The very small cylinder I have

01:14:25   that's heavier than the MacBook One.

01:14:27   - Good grief.

01:14:28   All right, I do have some questions about upgrade cycles

01:14:32   and some other things, but anything else about the hardware

01:14:35   and what may or may not happen in a couple of months.

01:14:38   Actually, next month, in theory.

01:14:40   Marco had some bold predictions about flash storage capacity too.

01:14:43   Oh, this is boring.

01:14:45   Yeah.

01:14:46   You make these predictions on Twitter like, "I totally think this is going to be it,"

01:14:48   but it comes time to the podcast, you're like, "Yeah, maybe not."

01:14:52   You think this is going to be it or you don't?

01:14:54   Because I'm not ready to make these predictions, but you seem very sure.

01:14:57   Well, what happens is I make these predictions on Twitter, and then between the time I make

01:15:02   these predictions on Twitter and now when we record the podcast, I've had hundreds of

01:15:06   people telling me I'm an idiot and I'm wrong.

01:15:08   So then I introduced myself down.

01:15:10   But my theory here is I don't think that we're gonna lose the 1664 128 split on the high

01:15:18   end models now.

01:15:19   I think that's gonna be here for at least one more year.

01:15:23   So 16 gigs, we're gonna keep going on that.

01:15:26   And then I just think everything else like the existing six, and if the six plus stays,

01:15:32   which I actually predict the existing six plus won't stay in the lineup, but that's

01:15:36   not that important.

01:15:37   I'm guessing that it does basically what it did this past year where the the six that

01:15:42   we have today moves down a slot becomes available in sixteen and maybe thirty two because right

01:15:48   now right now the the five s is available in sixteen and thirty two so maybe they would

01:15:53   do that again and then the existing five s that we have today is sixteen only and then

01:16:00   the what's below that no that's just the oh yeah the five c the five c right now is only

01:16:06   eight right? I think that's right. So god I hope the 5s doesn't go to eight. Jeez they

01:16:11   gotta stop doing that. Nothing's going to eight please. I'm still holding out hope for

01:16:16   a 32. I would love if the base was 32 for the new 6s or whatever we're calling that

01:16:22   thing but I don't see it happening unfortunately. Yeah someone wanted an argument and be like

01:16:28   you don't need that anymore app thinning, app slicing. Yeah I mean if you look at like

01:16:32   know, the direction that they're taking with so many iOS 9 app features and OS features,

01:16:39   part of that obviously is that they have a lot of phones out there already in the installed

01:16:42   base that have 16 or even 8 gigs of space, which is really unfortunate and really tight

01:16:47   and really stingy. They have a lot of phones out there that have those capacities already

01:16:52   and they're going to, they want all those to be able to upgrade to iOS 9. So that's

01:16:57   a problem that they were trying to solve. But if you look at all these like app thinning

01:17:01   and the various resource things they're doing, all this stuff. And they're also promoting

01:17:05   app thinning very heavily. They sent out a bulk email about it today, encouraging developers

01:17:08   to use it. And you can now test with internal testers, which are useless. All this stuff.

01:17:14   So they're clearly laying the foundation for a world in which tiny capacity iOS devices

01:17:22   continue to exist, basically.

01:17:23   I know. And I feel like there's a reason for them to do all that. Because like you said,

01:17:28   existing devices, they're kind of righting a wrong that already exists, but I fear someone

01:17:35   also used that to explain why we have to continue making 16GB devices in this next round and

01:17:40   why we don't have to make a 32.

01:17:41   Totally agreed.

01:17:42   Wish I could have been there and said, "Nooooo."

01:17:46   From what I've heard from people here and there, what I've heard, which has no credibility

01:17:51   whatsoever, is that it is very, very hard to convince the people at Apple who matter,

01:17:58   about things like this, to convince them

01:18:01   to spend the extra couple of bucks

01:18:03   on the bill of materials to get the bigger RAM chip

01:18:06   or to get the bigger flash memory chip.

01:18:08   - I believe it.

01:18:08   I mean, we see the evidence of it.

01:18:10   - Exactly.

01:18:11   Like we see, and there are some trade-offs too.

01:18:13   Like with RAM, RAM uses battery life.

01:18:15   So there are some trade-offs there,

01:18:17   but a lot of the things just come down to

01:18:19   making sure they have very, very healthy margins

01:18:21   and other things like that.

01:18:23   - Right, and just time marches on,

01:18:25   and it's like, all right, I understand

01:18:26   that you have reasons for it,

01:18:27   eventually you know you gotta and it's like they're just kicking and streaming

01:18:30   dragging their feet and like even bumping the capacity is like we bump the

01:18:33   capacity but can we cut out 32 and make keep 16 yeah let's do that that'll that

01:18:37   will make me feel better for the fact that I gave you the larger capacities

01:18:40   and we put two gigs of RAM in the iPad 3 can I just can I get rid of the 32 and

01:18:44   keep the 16 to money money money it's like ah like I just wish I could

01:18:47   convince these people of the of the long-term downside like look at our

01:18:53   customer set what long-term downsides you're talking about it's totally

01:18:55   invisible to us. I agree that's probably invisible to them, but we all know from

01:18:59   seeing the experiences like that it's like tiny little nicks of doubt and

01:19:04   damage for the person who can't like can't upgrade because their phone is

01:19:07   full. It's like oh we'll fix that in software with the next version, can't fit

01:19:10   all their stuff on it and like well we'll figure out we'll more gracefully

01:19:14   handle when you run out of storage. Like all these things are good to do but

01:19:17   another thing you can do is stop selling 16 gig phones. That's another thing you

01:19:20   can do and eventually you have to eventually you have to like you have to

01:19:23   eventually stop selling eights, you're gonna,

01:19:25   like they don't wanna believe that it's like,

01:19:27   it'll be 16 forever.

01:19:28   Like, yeah, I don't wanna have to use my argument again,

01:19:30   which doesn't have a name that we've agreed upon,

01:19:32   but I had to say like 2075, 16 gig iPhones, it's fine.

01:19:37   We did app thinning, like some,

01:19:38   you gotta upgrade eventually people.

01:19:40   And it's just a matter of arguing over what year

01:19:42   it's gonna be.

01:19:43   And I feel like the year I want it to be is like,

01:19:46   it's always two to three years different

01:19:47   than the year Apple wants it to be.

01:19:48   So we should.

01:19:49   - So what kind of timescale would we need to get that?

01:19:53   You just need them to agree that it's going to happen

01:19:56   and then make them pick which year it's going to happen in.

01:19:59   - Yeah.

01:20:00   - You agree with me that 16 gigs will go away.

01:20:02   What year will that happen?

01:20:03   Well, not this year for sure, okay.

01:20:04   We've narrowed it down, not this year.

01:20:06   Will it happen next year?

01:20:08   Mm, not next year, but ask me again next year.

01:20:10   Will it happen the year after that?

01:20:11   And you just keep going and then eventually

01:20:13   you're 75 years out and like, look, we're all dead now

01:20:15   and you still think it'll be 16 gig components?

01:20:16   I'm like, I just can't spare the margins.

01:20:19   Just can't do it.

01:20:20   - Yeah, well, because if you think about

01:20:22   It's like the iPhone, from Apple's financials point of view,

01:20:26   from the stock and from their financial performance

01:20:29   and everything, the iPhone is their most important product

01:20:32   by a long shot.

01:20:33   And anything that drives up the average selling price

01:20:37   of iPhones is a pretty big deal to them.

01:20:40   It's a huge deal for their money,

01:20:43   it's a huge deal for Tim Cook's evaluation,

01:20:46   like by the market and the press and maybe the board,

01:20:49   who knows.

01:20:50   - But that's not how they operate though,

01:20:51   you know how they could save a lot of money?

01:20:53   Use crappier materials and don't be so obsessed

01:20:55   with the stupid chamfered edges.

01:20:56   But those people, the people who want that stuff

01:20:58   to be perfect, they win the arguments.

01:21:00   They say, "Yes, we could do this much more cheaply

01:21:04   and we wouldn't have all these QA problems."

01:21:06   And by the way, the ADBtipster wants us to know

01:21:07   they didn't actually decrease their standards.

01:21:09   What they did was increase their standards

01:21:10   earlier in their production process

01:21:12   to not let those cases end up being

01:21:13   in completed phones or whatever.

01:21:14   But anyway, those people win their arguments

01:21:17   because you could save tons of money.

01:21:19   You'd be a PC manufacturer,

01:21:21   "Make all your trackpads out of plastic, it's way cheaper.

01:21:23   "Look at those huge margins."

01:21:25   But they don't do that.

01:21:25   Why?

01:21:26   Because they wanna make the best product they can.

01:21:28   And I feel like at this point,

01:21:30   selling phones for 100 or $200 with,

01:21:34   or you can even give a $300 one,

01:21:36   with 16 gigs of flash storage

01:21:39   is making your products worse for people

01:21:42   in a way that is avoidable with not too much,

01:21:45   you know, wouldn't hurt your margins that much.

01:21:47   In the same way, like if you need a trade-off,

01:21:49   maybe find a way to make it out of cheaper, easier to--

01:21:52   I think they did that.

01:21:53   I think the six plus is easier to manufacture

01:21:55   this curved piece of aluminum

01:21:57   than it was to manufacture the five

01:21:58   and the five S with the little chamfered edges.

01:22:00   It seems like, I don't know anything about manufacture,

01:22:01   but it seems to me that this one

01:22:03   must be cheaper to manufacture.

01:22:04   So hey, use some of that money that you saved

01:22:06   making a easier to manufacture case

01:22:08   that's easier to get to pass QA,

01:22:10   put that into maybe having a 32 gig model

01:22:13   somewhere in your lineup

01:22:14   and maybe not selling the 16 at the top of the line.

01:22:17   - But it's not about saving the five or 10 bucks

01:22:20   or whatever the cost is of the flash chip

01:22:22   in going from 16 to 32.

01:22:25   It's about the people who upgrade,

01:22:28   who pay the extra $100 to go from 16 to 64,

01:22:32   who wouldn't have done that if the base model was 32.

01:22:35   - You're right, it comes out the money.

01:22:38   Like, basically what he's saying is like,

01:22:39   "Well, they're really sensitive to money.

01:22:40   "This is a big product line.

01:22:41   "Any small change in the device that sells in this volume

01:22:44   "for this amount of money adds up to big numbers."

01:22:47   right. It's the anchoring, it's like, "Well, I don't want a 16, and it's my only other

01:22:50   choice is a 64, and they can charge more for 64, but 64 is so much bigger than 16."

01:22:54   All that stuff is all true. It's just like, you know, those type of pricing games and

01:22:58   stuff, you can play those, but the worst thing you can do is put a product into the hands

01:23:02   of people that is going to give them a less satisfactory experience that will just get

01:23:07   worse over time, that will make them have bad feelings about you or your products.

01:23:13   - I agree, but Apple has always done that.

01:23:15   They've always had very low RAM configurations

01:23:18   on the base model laptops and stuff like that.

01:23:20   - They came out of that.

01:23:21   I felt like they got over that.

01:23:23   It was a really dark time where your new $3,000 Mac

01:23:28   comes standard with an obscenely small amount of RAM.

01:23:31   It might as well be empty.

01:23:32   Don't even try to use it in this configuration.

01:23:36   And by the way, if you don't buy your RAMs from us,

01:23:37   it avoids the warranty.

01:23:39   Those are the bad old days.

01:23:40   I felt like they came out of that,

01:23:42   especially when they started soldering RAM on the board,

01:23:44   that's one of the best things that happened to them RAM wise

01:23:46   because they were forced to use a sane amount.

01:23:48   - Right.

01:23:49   - Because if there was gonna be, you know,

01:23:50   it's a pro laptop, but we put soldered on the board

01:23:52   for gigs now and you can't expand it.

01:23:55   It's like, so they were forced to pick sane numbers there.

01:23:57   I think that was a plus.

01:23:58   The flash and the iPhones is their new area of backsliding.

01:24:02   They just feel like they can get away with it

01:24:04   for just way too long.

01:24:06   - Well, and they obviously can get away with it.

01:24:08   - Yeah, I know, but there are, it's ramifications.

01:24:11   How many podcasts am I gonna say that on now?

01:24:13   What is the fallout?

01:24:16   I'll even give them this current lineup

01:24:18   that we've all got in our hands.

01:24:20   I'll even give them that 16.

01:24:21   Fine, you get a pass on that one.

01:24:22   But this year, I really, really, really hope

01:24:24   in the top of the line product,

01:24:25   it doesn't even go down to 16

01:24:27   and that there's definitely a 32.

01:24:29   - You wanna bet?

01:24:30   - I would not bet against it

01:24:31   because I think there's about at least a 50/50 chance

01:24:34   that you're right and that it's gonna go down to 16.

01:24:36   But I just really, if only just because

01:24:38   that's the phones that they're making.

01:24:41   I'll bet you a 16 gig SD card that the base model stays 16.

01:24:46   - No, I would not take that bet.

01:24:49   I just, I feel like it's a coin toss, so.

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01:27:50   I have a couple of questions about upgrading.

01:27:54   So last year I was off cycle, but I treated myself and somehow convinced Aaron that it

01:28:00   was worth it to get a six out of contract.

01:28:04   Well, that's not even true. It was kind of in contract. I don't know, it was weird. Anyway...

01:28:07   Like the half-subsidy where you pay like $400 for it or something?

01:28:10   Exactly. This is on AT&T.

01:28:12   This year, Erin is unequivocally due for a new phone. Her 5S is two years old, or will be two years old.

01:28:19   It is her time. We'll see if I can convince her/me if I should also get a new phone. We'll see how that goes.

01:28:27   But my understanding—and I've not really had any time to look into this yet—

01:28:31   But my understanding is AT&T and most of the other carriers have largely done away with

01:28:36   the subsidy and two-year contract dance that has been going on for forever and a day.

01:28:44   Do you guys happen to know anything about how this is working?

01:28:47   Oh, man.

01:28:48   I tried doing research before the show, because I've also heard the same thing, that apparently

01:28:54   in Apple stores this fall, if you buy the phone through an Apple store, apparently they—I

01:28:59   that they won't do subsidies at all or that you have to do these like AT&T Next type plans

01:29:04   where like you pay per month additional amounts for the phone for like X months, which by

01:29:09   the way is apparently like how the entire rest of the world works.

01:29:12   And it's the more sane way to do it. It is the less manipulative way. The way things

01:29:17   are priced now is to fool you into like you know you're not good. People's brains aren't

01:29:22   good at realizing exactly how much money they're paying over the X number of years for this.

01:29:25   Like they don't see the subsidy. They're like, "Oh, I get a phone for 200 bucks and I have

01:29:28   a monthly bill that feels so much better to me and no one wants to do the math to figure

01:29:32   out, you know what, you're actually paying more.

01:29:33   So I'm kind of baffled as to why they're changing it because the voodoo of that pricing works

01:29:39   really well.

01:29:41   Maybe competitive pressure from T-Mobile?

01:29:45   I can't even think of why they would change.

01:29:47   Because the underdog, the crappy carriers that don't have good coverage that are trying

01:29:51   to get customers are like, "Hey, we have honest pricing and you can do math and figure out

01:29:54   how it works and blah, blah, blah," to try to attract customers.

01:29:58   that's putting some pressure on AT&T and Verizon, but honestly it's a mystery to me why they

01:30:03   would go from a confusing pricing plan that makes people feel like they're not paying

01:30:07   a lot, but really they are, to a pricing plan that is initially more off-putting because

01:30:11   you see the real costs, but is actually more fair and understandable in the long term.

01:30:16   But one thing's for sure, I think this is not good news for Apple. Like to me, I think

01:30:22   having the iPhone being compared on unsubsidized pricing at any level, even if you try to,

01:30:27   you know, put it in as a, well, this is,

01:30:29   the iPhone 6s will be $25 a month more,

01:30:32   and the iPhone 6 will be $20 a month more.

01:30:34   You know, even if you try to break it into like,

01:30:36   kind of like layaway plan pricing like that,

01:30:38   having the real price become more visible in any way

01:30:42   without these subsidies is almost certain

01:30:44   to negatively affect iPhone sales.

01:30:47   - Don't you think it'll negatively affect all sales?

01:30:49   Like, aren't the carriers doing this

01:30:50   across all their phones or just for the iPhone?

01:30:52   - I think they are doing it across all their phones,

01:30:54   But now it is creating a price umbrella

01:30:58   for people to go under Apple on,

01:31:00   and some phones already are cheaper than Apple's.

01:31:02   I think it'll greatly help things like,

01:31:04   is it the Moto X, whatever the cheap--

01:31:08   - But they've always been cheaper.

01:31:09   They've always been like the free with contract phone

01:31:11   or whatever, like I guess it depends on like

01:31:14   how much bigger are Apple subsidies

01:31:16   than they are for the basically comparable phones,

01:31:19   for the top of the line Samsung smartphone or whatever.

01:31:22   I think the pricing on the box,

01:31:23   is that how it's been similar?

01:31:25   Like it's, you know, 199 to get you into

01:31:27   the best Samsung Galaxy S whatever they're up to

01:31:30   and 199 for the best iPhone.

01:31:32   And the only difference may be,

01:31:33   well actually behind the scenes,

01:31:34   even though the list price for you is 199

01:31:37   plus, you know, two year contract,

01:31:39   behind the scenes, the carriers are paying Apple

01:31:41   way more than they're paying Samsung.

01:31:42   And so once that becomes visible,

01:31:44   suddenly it's not 199 versus 199.

01:31:46   It's actually a much bigger number for the iPhone

01:31:49   versus a smaller number for the supposedly equivalent

01:31:52   top of the line Samsung phone.

01:31:55   If that's true, then that could hurt Apple,

01:31:56   but I think it'll just hurt everybody across the board

01:31:58   because people don't wanna see the real price

01:32:01   of their smartphone.

01:32:03   I mean, I guess we can get used to it,

01:32:04   'cause like you said, that's how the rest of the world

01:32:05   kind of does it, and it's still kind of hidden.

01:32:07   It's like plus X number of amounts per month

01:32:09   for X number of months,

01:32:10   and that'll still be enough multiplication

01:32:12   to stop people from doing it,

01:32:13   as opposed to basically buying an unlocked phone

01:32:15   and like, okay, give me $1,200,

01:32:17   whatever the hell it is for the unlocked,

01:32:19   you're like, "Whoa, whoa, I'm not using a $1,200 phone."

01:32:21   It's like, you are, you just don't know it.

01:32:24   - Right, and the other problem is,

01:32:26   in the US, up 'til now in the US,

01:32:29   if you kept buying the contract discounts, basically,

01:32:33   and these plans have been, like these pay every month

01:32:35   things have been around for what, about a year or two now,

01:32:37   but a lot of people still haven't been using them.

01:32:39   And so up until now, if you're on one of the big carriers,

01:32:42   basically AT&T and Verizon in the US,

01:32:45   let's say you were on a two-year contract,

01:32:48   at the end of those two years, your bill doesn't go down.

01:32:51   Like once your phone is like quote paid off

01:32:53   for the contract, your bill has not decreased.

01:32:57   And so you basically had a reason to go into the phone store

01:33:01   and pick out a new phone for quote free every two years

01:33:05   because you could, because there was no new cost to you

01:33:10   to do that because you were paying for a subsidy

01:33:13   whether you were using it or not.

01:33:15   Your bills stay the same.

01:33:17   With these plans, that is changing.

01:33:20   And so now, I think you're right, Jon.

01:33:23   Like, you know, this is two-sided.

01:33:24   One is Apple could be vulnerable

01:33:26   to people having cheaper phones than them,

01:33:28   but two, which is bigger, which you're right,

01:33:30   affects everybody, is that now I think people

01:33:32   will expect their phones to last longer than two years.

01:33:36   And they won't upgrade as frequently.

01:33:37   'Cause the whole, the entire smartphone business,

01:33:41   the reason why Apple is never gonna find another thing

01:33:44   like the iPhone, there's never gonna be like

01:33:46   the next great product that is as good financially for Apple as the iPhone was, because there

01:33:53   is nothing like the subsidized cell phone market. It's such a weird little oddity of

01:33:59   a market where everybody buys a phone, like everybody, and smartphones in so many countries,

01:34:05   and especially in the US, have been so heavily subsidized over the years that not only is

01:34:10   everybody buying these expensive devices, and they could have these high behind the

01:34:15   the scenes prices because nobody was seeing them, but also people would update them constantly.

01:34:20   People update their phones way more often than they would update their computers or

01:34:23   any other $500 electronic device or more. People update their phones every 18 months

01:34:30   on average, something like that for most of the world.

01:34:32   I guess partly because phones are at the point where they're getting, we're in the early

01:34:37   phase of smartphones, every new phone is better in some significant way and eventually that

01:34:41   will start slowing down just like it did with PCs.

01:34:43   Maybe but this this subsidy model that we've had has been I think

01:34:48   artificially inflating both the prices that these companies can charge for the phones because you know an iPod touch with an

01:34:56   a8 inside and the great screen and everything is 200 bucks and

01:34:59   That same device in a phone is

01:35:03   650 that does have a bit does have a bigger screen. I yeah, I know it's very right

01:35:08   Yeah, they can make more money and same thing with the carriers like oh how how can the carriers charge so much money?

01:35:12   You know because they have a monopoly on all the you know a near monopoly on all the stupid cell towers and infrastructure

01:35:18   And the barrier to entry to everyone else and all that other crap like why is it?

01:35:22   Why are they able to charge us so much money like?

01:35:25   There is not enough competition in the space of of charging us new

01:35:28   But even though they're feeling the pressure the places where there are competition

01:35:31   There is enough pressure to drive their prices down and like a lot of the reason you know like oh

01:35:35   This has been so subsidized who's subsidizing it who is doing it's the carriers because they know the total

01:35:40   Lifetime value of the customer is huge because they're gonna get some massive monthly bill that people will be like alright

01:35:44   I guess I just got to pay

01:35:46   $100 a month for my whole family or more

01:35:49   To use cell phones because you gotta have a cell phone and so who is subsidizing this the carriers like alright fine Apple

01:35:56   We'll pay you $700 because you know the lifetime value of that customer is huge because like you said you know you get this huge

01:36:00   Bill it's monthly

01:36:01   They just feel like they have to pay it like a utility if you're lucky you have limited or no competition in your area

01:36:08   For or maybe they're like one other company or two other companies that you can maybe collude with unless they're too t-mobile and they're a thorn

01:36:13   In your side, you know, like maybe your Verizon and your network is really mediocre

01:36:17   But everyone thinks it's the best one in the country for some reason. Amen

01:36:19   Well, it's better than t-mobiles right and you know and the barrier to entry is high and all these other things, right? And so

01:36:24   That should start to work itself out

01:36:27   Hopefully that they can't just continue to charge huge amounts and if they can't charge huge amounts of the lifetime custom value of a customer

01:36:35   is not as high, so they won't be giving Apple

01:36:38   as big a subsidies, whether they're splitting it out or not.

01:36:42   Anyway, I don't understand enough about this change

01:36:44   in pricing to understand what's motivating it,

01:36:46   but for me it seems like what they're doing

01:36:49   is better for consumers and worse for Apple and carriers,

01:36:54   and so I'm obviously missing something big here.

01:36:57   - Yeah, I generally feel the same way.

01:36:59   Maybe the carriers are trying to take away

01:37:02   some of the power of Apple and the high-end device makers,

01:37:05   - Yeah, it could be a power struggle like that, yeah.

01:37:08   - But I definitely think that this is most likely

01:37:11   to lead to longer phone upgrade cycles,

01:37:14   which is bad for both of those, and lower monthly bills.

01:37:19   - Yeah, I think that power struggle makes sense to me,

01:37:22   because I think, you know, we've always known that Apple

01:37:25   has made more demands of the carriers than other companies,

01:37:29   because they could, and 'cause that's kind of,

01:37:30   they're hard negotiators, and for a long time,

01:37:33   it was just an AT&T and you know,

01:37:34   like they've made more demands

01:37:36   and one of those more demands is you're gonna pay us

01:37:38   a higher subsidy and they're gonna be like,

01:37:40   well you know, and you're not allowed to put your crapware

01:37:43   on our phones and all that stuff

01:37:44   and from the carriers perspective,

01:37:45   I think they like Android phones better

01:37:47   because they have more power over the Android phones

01:37:49   and as far as they're concerned,

01:37:50   like I don't even care what the hell crappy phone you use,

01:37:52   I just care that you pay me your monthly bill.

01:37:53   So from a carriers perspective, it's better

01:37:56   if you buy one of their cheaper, crappier phones

01:37:58   that they get to put their crapware on.

01:38:02   They don't care if you buy a new one of those,

01:38:04   don't buy a new one, like whatever.

01:38:05   If we have to pay a lower subsidy,

01:38:06   I think it'd feel like from a carrier's perspective,

01:38:08   they'd be happier if people use cheaper, crappier phones,

01:38:11   but just continue to pay the same high monthly bills.

01:38:15   It's better for them than having to deal with Apple

01:38:18   and all its demands and not being able

01:38:19   to put their crapware on it

01:38:20   and having to pay them a bigger subsidy than everybody else

01:38:23   because everyone loves a stupid iPhone.

01:38:25   And so, yeah, that is an explanation

01:38:27   that makes sense to me.

01:38:29   I'm still not entirely sure

01:38:30   it's not the carrier shooting themselves in the foot,

01:38:32   because it seems like as demanding as Apple is

01:38:34   and what power they might have,

01:38:36   Android is the majority of the market anyway.

01:38:38   And so do they really need to just like continue

01:38:40   to smush Apple into an ever smaller slice of the pie?

01:38:43   I don't know.

01:38:45   - Well, but Apple still has a lot of power

01:38:47   in that people are willing to switch carriers for iPhones.

01:38:51   And they probably aren't as willing

01:38:55   to do that for Android phones,

01:38:57   and also they don't really need to

01:38:58   'cause Android phones are everywhere.

01:38:59   But if Apple decides not to work with your carrier anymore,

01:39:02   that's kind of bad news for your carrier.

01:39:05   - Yeah, I guess that's true.

01:39:06   And Apple customers have a lot of money

01:39:08   'cause the phones are expensive,

01:39:09   and so maybe they're the good customers

01:39:11   who can pay for your fancier plans

01:39:13   where you overcharge them for more bandwidth

01:39:15   that really doesn't cost you much more, and I don't know.

01:39:18   - But do you really think that Apple would say to AT&T

01:39:22   or Verizon, "No, I'm not gonna be

01:39:24   "on either of your networks anymore"?

01:39:26   Like, there's no freaking way that Apple would do that.

01:39:29   might threaten it or allude to threatening, you know, it's negotiations, like I don't

01:39:33   know. I mean, hell, they were on AT&T only for a really long time, which if you look

01:39:36   at it, you're like, boy, is that seriously Apple still AT&T only? Like, when is the Verizon

01:39:41   iPhone coming, you know, and

01:39:43   Well, but hold on, though, that's because at that point in time, Marco was absolutely

01:39:47   right that back then Verizon really was the only network that really freaking worked.

01:39:52   And so Verizon had a lot more leverage. And I think that AT&T or excuse me, Apple couldn't

01:39:57   put the squeeze to Verizon like they did to AT&T.

01:40:00   - I know, but Apple held out.

01:40:01   Verizon had the leverage.

01:40:02   It seems like Apple should have been forced

01:40:04   to come over to Verizon even sooner

01:40:06   because Apple, because Verizon had all the leverage.

01:40:08   We're the best network.

01:40:09   You're on that crap AT&T.

01:40:10   It's hurting you in the press.

01:40:12   You should totally come over to us,

01:40:13   but Apple held off for a really long time.

01:40:14   So you're saying it does,

01:40:16   would Apple ever even threaten to pull out of like,

01:40:19   you know, AT&T or whatever?

01:40:20   - No way.

01:40:21   - I think, I feel like they would threaten,

01:40:23   whether they would actually do it, probably not, but.

01:40:26   Maybe they'd threaten, but no way they'd do it.

01:40:28   And also, I just want to quickly underscore what Marco

01:40:31   said earlier.

01:40:32   This is actually a kind of good transition.

01:40:34   I have a Verizon iPad Mini, the original Retina iPad Mini,

01:40:39   or as I love to say, my Retina Pad Mini.

01:40:42   It came with a Verizon SIM, but I got a T-Mobile

01:40:45   SIM after the fact.

01:40:46   And I'll flip back and forth between them willy-nilly as I

01:40:49   see fit.

01:40:51   And my phone, like I said earlier, is AT&T. So I have

01:40:54   devices that can use data on AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile. And Marco, I could not agree

01:40:59   with you more. Everyone who has been a loyal Verizon user for a decade or more swears that

01:41:04   Verizon has the best service in the entire world. I really don't think that's true at

01:41:08   all. I would even go so far as to say I think AT&T service is actually more robust and faster

01:41:13   than Verizon in anywhere I ever typically travel. So I just wanted to say amen to that.

01:41:19   I agree with you.

01:41:20   >> We're going to get so many people telling us otherwise. However, I totally agree. I

01:41:23   I do the same thing where, I used to have Verizon phones

01:41:26   back before the iPhone, and I had Verizon data sticks

01:41:30   for a while after that, and then I started tethering,

01:41:32   and then I got Verizon iPads, and so I've had an AT&T phone

01:41:36   and Verizon data devices for a very long time now,

01:41:39   and it is no contest that the Verizon,

01:41:43   like, Verizon used to be the best network,

01:41:46   and I think they've banked on that

01:41:49   with their reputation for so long.

01:41:50   - Don't they still have the best coverage in the US anyway?

01:41:52   like just in terms of like total square miles

01:41:54   of where you can get a decent signal?

01:41:56   - I think they might, but AT&T has closed that gap so much

01:42:00   like that right now, there are places like go

01:42:02   that don't have AT&T reception,

01:42:04   but they don't have Verizon reception either.

01:42:06   It's like, you know, certain places of state

01:42:07   that they have neither, they have no carriers,

01:42:10   and that's fine.

01:42:11   AT&T, it's been a very long time since I have found a place

01:42:14   where AT&T is not covered, but Verizon does,

01:42:17   and the opposite where I have tried

01:42:19   to use Verizon data somewhere,

01:42:21   and it has like one circle and is unusable,

01:42:24   and then I'd go try AT&T and it's like three circles

01:42:27   and perfectly usable and fast, that happens a lot.

01:42:30   Like, I really think that Verizon, for whatever reason,

01:42:33   I don't know if there's a radio theory to back this up

01:42:38   or if this is just coincidence,

01:42:39   Verizon seems to really suck at indoor coverage

01:42:43   way more than AT&T does.

01:42:45   And this, anecdotally, this has always been the problem.

01:42:48   Like, people rave about how much their Verizon phones

01:42:51   Verizon's the best network, then they come into your house

01:42:53   and they can't make a call.

01:42:54   You know, or like when I have Verizon phones,

01:42:56   like you know, yeah, it'd be great until you go

01:42:58   into a grocery store and then all the call drops

01:43:00   or data doesn't work anymore.

01:43:01   Like, that has always been the problem I've had with Verizon.

01:43:04   I have family members and friends

01:43:05   who still have Verizon today.

01:43:07   Those problems have never gone away for them.

01:43:09   And AT&T has, really, the best thing to ever happen

01:43:13   to AT&T was Verizon iPhones coming out.

01:43:16   Because that unloaded a lot of AT&T's network.

01:43:18   (laughing)

01:43:20   And so AT&T's network has been rock solid for me

01:43:24   for the last, I would say, at least three years.

01:43:27   Before that it was a little bit spotty.

01:43:29   I'd say for a good three years, AT&T's network

01:43:32   has been awesome for me, with tethering,

01:43:34   with travel, all sorts of different places,

01:43:36   with voice, everything has been solid.

01:43:38   And Verizon, the Verizon devices I've had,

01:43:41   I have been only, I've only seen mediocrity from them.

01:43:46   The Verizon people I know who use it on their phones,

01:43:48   they keep complaining about the same mediocre problems

01:43:50   that I always had with Verizon back in the day,

01:43:52   and I don't think I will buy any more Verizon devices,

01:43:56   because the original reason I would buy Verizon iPads

01:44:00   and keep my AT&T phone is, what if I'm somewhere

01:44:03   where AT&T doesn't cover very well,

01:44:05   but Verizon covers it better?

01:44:07   And that used to be the case,

01:44:07   like when I would travel to San Francisco for WBC,

01:44:10   I would use, like I could use the faster one for tethering,

01:44:13   and that one was usually the Verizon one back in the day,

01:44:15   like when LTE was first coming out and everything,

01:44:17   That was the Verizon one.

01:44:19   In the last two years, I would say,

01:44:22   the Verizon one has never been the faster one, not once.

01:44:25   Every time I try, like the AT,

01:44:27   I always end up using, going back to the phone,

01:44:28   'cause it's way faster.

01:44:30   So I think I'm done buying Verizon stuff.

01:44:32   - Yeah, I agree with you.

01:44:33   And I know that there are people

01:44:34   that are listening right now that are saying,

01:44:36   "Oh, but in my particular part of the country,

01:44:39   "be that completely rural or completely,"

01:44:42   what the hell is the opposite of rural?

01:44:44   - Urban. - Thank you.

01:44:45   God, I had a total brain fart there.

01:44:47   Anyway, completely urban or completely rural, Verizon is the only one that works, you all

01:44:51   are crazy.

01:44:52   I'm sure there are parts of the country that that's true.

01:44:53   Well, that's what I'm getting at, because we don't go to the whole country.

01:44:56   We go to like five spots in the country, right?

01:44:58   So I'm saying it is still entirely possible, even if those five spots are city, city, rural,

01:45:04   city, it's still entirely possible that Verizon still has the best coverage in terms of if

01:45:08   you put a little pin in every square mile of the country and check the signal strength

01:45:12   for AT&T and Verizon, that Verizon still covers more.

01:45:15   Like that has always been the thing with Verizon, that not necessarily that it's always the

01:45:18   fastest connection, but that if you sample the entire country, you can get a Verizon

01:45:23   signal or a stronger Verizon signal in more places than you can get in AT&T.

01:45:26   As AT&T has been building out, I'm assuming they've been building out in the population

01:45:30   centers first.

01:45:31   So yeah, New York City, San Francisco, whatever, and there are still places where you can't

01:45:34   get either one of them.

01:45:35   But I'm like, I don't know.

01:45:36   I know I'm in kind of a cell phone dead area.

01:45:38   The only thing I know is that T-Mobile gets crap signal here and that I can actually receive

01:45:42   phone calls inside my house with Verizon.

01:45:44   I don't have an AT&T data point to go by, but I'm still entirely willing to believe

01:45:49   that Verizon still has better overall coverage.

01:45:53   And then it just boils down to, okay, but I don't go in the whole country, I go to these

01:45:55   seven places.

01:45:56   And the seven places that I go, who has better signal, who has faster data, whatever.

01:46:01   And indoor thing, I think maybe Moscone must have some kind of Verizon repeater, because

01:46:05   I get crazy good signal during WWDC deep inside the bowels of that building through many layers

01:46:10   of, maybe they're just because they're like fabric partitions or whatever.

01:46:14   don't you get awesome Verizon's?

01:46:15   Maybe you don't use Verizon anymore.

01:46:16   - Well, I get awesome AT&T coverage in there,

01:46:18   to the point where I usually don't join the WiFi

01:46:21   with my phone.

01:46:22   - I don't, I don't use the WiFi anymore.

01:46:23   I use Verizon only and I get great signal,

01:46:26   fast download speeds, yeah.

01:46:28   So, again, I don't know if like Verizon,

01:46:31   weak indoors type of thing,

01:46:32   whatever is going on in Moscone,

01:46:34   it's definitely not weak indoors there.

01:46:36   - Yeah. - Yeah, who knows?

01:46:38   But anyway, the one other thing I wanted to talk about

01:46:40   we should probably wrap, is I kind of cracked the screen on my beloved iPad Mini when I

01:46:47   was at the beach. I wasn't holding it. I didn't drop it. It was in my beach bag, my book bag.

01:46:54   And I guess I'd, for whatever reason, maybe Declan had an issue or whatever, I didn't

01:46:59   flap the smart cover closed. And so there's this little hairline, in fact I thought it

01:47:05   a hair, crack. So if you're holding the iPad in portrait, it's just a little like semi-circle

01:47:12   that only dips into the visible screen area right where the edge of the battery indicator

01:47:18   is when you're holding in portrait in the portrait right side up orientation.

01:47:21   >>

01:47:21   orientation.

01:47:22   >> Ruined, throw it away.

01:47:23   >> It's ruined.

01:47:24   It's absolutely freaking ruined.

01:47:25   >> So, what did it?

01:47:27   >> I don't know.

01:47:28   I genuinely don't know.

01:47:29   But what I know is, it wasn't cracked.

01:47:31   I put it in the bag that we had towels and the camera and a whole bunch of other junk

01:47:36   in that we had taken down to the beach.

01:47:38   And when I pulled it back out, it had this hairline crack in it.

01:47:41   I presume we picked up the bag or threw something into the bag.

01:47:44   I genuinely don't know.

01:47:47   We all know that I fess up when I do dumb crap to my devices.

01:47:51   I genuinely don't know what happened.

01:47:52   It must have been my fault some way, but I don't know what happened.

01:47:57   And so the reason I bring this up is because it was about time to upgrade the iPad anyway.

01:48:02   I was—like, the iOS 9 stuff I'm actually kind of amped up about for the iPad.

01:48:07   And so I was probably gonna get a new one, but now I'm definitely gonna get a new one.

01:48:11   Well, I really happen to like having cellular iPads.

01:48:16   I understand that most people tether, and that works for them.

01:48:20   I'm still on the unlimited plan on AT&T, which doesn't allow me to tether.

01:48:24   I understand that I could probably save money and it doesn't matter, blah, blah, blah.

01:48:29   This is the way it is.

01:48:30   This is what I'm dealing with.

01:48:31   This is a choice I'm making.

01:48:33   So I'm going to get probably a new iPad mini with cellular this upcoming fall.

01:48:41   The question I have, and that I genuinely don't know the answer to, is my understanding

01:48:47   of this, having not really paid much attention in the last couple years, is that cellular

01:48:51   iPads have the Apple SIM in them.

01:48:55   And what I'm not clear on is, my recollection of when they first came out was that once

01:49:00   you committed to any of the carriers, you're locked to that carrier on that Apple SIM.

01:49:05   So your device could choose between Verizon or T-Mobile or what have you up front, but

01:49:09   the moment you choose, that's it forever.

01:49:12   Do you guys happen to know, is that true, or can you flip-flop willy-nilly?

01:49:16   I have heard the same thing as you, but I have no idea whether it's true.

01:49:20   Yeah, someone who knows without question, not just anecdotally, like if you have some

01:49:26   sort of web page somewhere that describes how this works, I'm assuming Renee Ritchie

01:49:31   has something somewhere and I just don't realize it, I would love to see it, so send me a tweet

01:49:35   or something like that, because the reason I bring this up is, like I said, I bounce

01:49:40   back and forth between T-Mobile and Verizon.

01:49:41   I find that T-Mobile's coverage does indeed suck.

01:49:45   However, when it is good, it's great.

01:49:48   And so it's much faster than Verizon, and oftentimes much more reliable than Verizon,

01:49:54   when you're in a metro center that actually has T-Mobile service, you know, one of the

01:49:58   three areas of the country.

01:50:01   And so I'd like to be able to flip back and forth.

01:50:02   Additionally, T-Mobile presently is giving me 200 megs a month of data for free.

01:50:06   I don't know if that would still be the case in a brand new iPad, but I'd love it to be

01:50:10   the case.

01:50:11   And so I would rather not get the Apple SIM locked to Verizon if I can avoid it.

01:50:20   And maybe the answer is, if Verizon is the only thing that locks, maybe I'd do what Marco

01:50:24   was alluding to earlier.

01:50:25   And if I flip-flop at all, I'd do it between AT&T and T-Mobile.

01:50:29   But if there is some clear documentation somewhere that I can read, I would love to read it.

01:50:34   So please send me a tweet and let me know.

01:50:37   I'd really love to see it.

01:50:38   It's probably worth considering just getting a Verizon sim and swapping that in and out or getting a second Apple sim apparently

01:50:45   They will sell you a second Apple sim. Oh, is that right? Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah somebody in the chat

01:50:48   So that's only five bucks. I don't know if that's true or not

01:50:50   But yeah

01:50:51   I mean for this kind of concern first of all just putting a TNT on it is probably the right choice and you could probably

01:50:57   Add it to your phone plan for some minimal cost per month

01:50:59   But you know if if you're gonna do swapping at all between carriers, you might as well swap Sims

01:51:04   you know, just to be safe without, then you avoid this entire problem.

01:51:08   Yeah, totally. I actually genuinely did not realize that you could pop a different sim

01:51:13   in. I didn't know if the sim was like soldered into the board, because I really haven't had

01:51:17   to pay attention to this because I wasn't planning on getting an iPad until this year.

01:51:20   And so now is when I'm starting to think about these things and I'll have to do some research

01:51:25   and maybe we'll have some follow-up about it, since I know Jon, you're probably very

01:51:29   sad about the lack of follow-up this week. Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:51:34   Cards Against Humanity, Harry's, and Hover, and we will see you next week.

01:51:38   [music]

01:51:45   Cause it was accidental Oh it was accidental

01:51:51   John didn't do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:51:56   Cause it was accidental It was accidental

01:52:02   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm And if you're into Twitter

01:52:10   You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:52:16   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:52:20   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:52:25   USA, Syracuse, it's accidental

01:52:31   They didn't mean to, accidental

01:52:36   Tech podcast so long

01:52:40   I learned a disturbing thing about an extended family member on vacation this year. Oh

01:52:45   Now I am related to somebody who is using an iOS device with a completely cracked and shattered screen

01:52:51   We've all seen people do it. We've seen them in real life. You see people sitting there

01:52:55   You notice they're swiping the little thumb along their smartphone and then you look closer and you realize the thing is just spiderweb to hell

01:53:01   Cracks through the whole thing, right?

01:53:03   Everyone has seen someone doing that and you think mm-hmm. Why don't they why don't they get that fixed?

01:53:09   Is this just like a permanent thing?

01:53:11   Are they gonna put a piece of packing tape over it?

01:53:13   Just say, you know what?

01:53:14   I'm just gonna use it like this until my contract expires in a year and a half.

01:53:17   And they just do.

01:53:18   And you wonder like eventually will they wiggle loose?

01:53:20   Are they gonna slice their finger open on that?

01:53:23   Is this a permanent state of being?

01:53:25   Don't they get annoyed trying to look through the cracks where the refraction makes the

01:53:28   little image messed up or whatever?

01:53:32   And now I'm related to someone who's doing that.

01:53:33   And I could not convince them to, you know, pay the $99 or whatever it costs to replace

01:53:39   the screen of the thing.

01:53:41   So they're just gonna keep using it like that until,

01:53:43   I don't know, until they stop using it.

01:53:46   - Speaking of, do you guys know how much it is

01:53:49   to get the iPad mini screen replaced?

01:53:52   - It's not worth it.

01:53:52   - Probably more than 99.

01:53:54   Obviously this is, this is what I'm talking about,

01:53:55   a phone-sized device.

01:53:56   - Well, 'cause I can tell you,

01:53:58   so my kid's iPad has a cracked screen,

01:54:01   and it's a very small crack, but it is a crack,

01:54:04   and so we looked at, it's the very first iPad mini

01:54:06   with the terrible non-retina screen.

01:54:09   we listened to what it would cost to replace the glass. And it was, I forget exactly what

01:54:14   it was, but it was something, it was basically like, it is the cost of buying a new iPad

01:54:18   or it's very close to it for the low end ones. It's probably different on like an Air where

01:54:22   you're spending, you know, if it's worth 500 bucks, then it might be different. But for

01:54:26   the, for the minis, it's like 200 bucks and it's a really barely, if at all worth doing.

01:54:33   - That's a bummer.

01:54:34   - So yeah, so we just quote fixed it

01:54:37   by getting a like $6 screen protector that sticks on.

01:54:42   - More people, more people I know who are just like,

01:54:44   cracks, cracks happen, you know, you figure like,

01:54:46   I figured you would have just bought a new mini,

01:54:48   I guess you're waiting for the new ones to come out

01:54:50   before you bother.

01:54:50   - Well, first of all, so it's the first generation

01:54:53   non-retina and it's to play occasional kid games on,

01:54:56   he doesn't give a crap whether the screen is retina

01:54:58   and whether it's new or fast.

01:55:00   So I'm like, okay, I have this,

01:55:02   There's nothing else I can do with this.

01:55:03   It's not even worth reselling,

01:55:05   especially with a cracked screen, it's not worth much.

01:55:07   There's nothing I can do with this,

01:55:08   so I'll just let him use it 'til it dies.

01:55:10   I have Casey's RetinaPad Mini.

01:55:13   I have that model of iPad that's been sitting in a drawer,

01:55:17   unused, and I keep meaning to sell it or get rid of it,

01:55:19   but I'm like, well, if Adam's iPad dies,

01:55:22   then I can just kick him down,

01:55:24   kick that one down into his slot, and I don't know.

01:55:27   Now I can just mail it to Casey, I guess, but.

01:55:29   - Is it cellular?

01:55:30   - Yeah, it's Verizon.

01:55:31   nice yeah oh yeah I'll take it you guys remember when shampoo used to come in

01:55:38   glass bottles no I think that was like the 50s and you're really old anyway do

01:55:46   you remember that I think it was like maybe prel there was some particular

01:55:48   brand anyway I feel like that our grandkids when we tell them stories that

01:55:53   we used to carry about around a bunch of rectangles that were made of glass and

01:55:57   that sometimes they would crack and then people who just use them shattered or

01:56:00   sometimes, they will look at us and the same way we think about, you had glass bottles

01:56:05   of shampoo in the shower, doesn't that seem idiotic?

01:56:08   Like why didn't you just make them out of plastic and say, "We didn't have plastic,

01:56:11   really."

01:56:12   I feel like we're in this period where glass is the right material to be making out of

01:56:18   right now, unquestionably, but there are obvious downsides to glass that someday when we get

01:56:24   past that and get a device that has all the benefits of glass without the whole shattering

01:56:28   and not being, you know, like, they'll look back on this

01:56:31   and go, "You guys were carrying around glass things."

01:56:33   It was like, you were carrying around

01:56:34   these fragile East Faberge eggs,

01:56:36   and if you dropped them on the cement,

01:56:37   they would just like shatter or crack or spider web,

01:56:40   and you had to put this, it's gonna look weird to them,

01:56:42   'cause already it seems to me like,

01:56:44   is this really the best thing we should be doing?

01:56:46   Everyone in the world carries around

01:56:47   a little rectangle of glass.

01:56:49   Is that what we're gonna do now?

01:56:51   Seems absurd to me.

01:56:53   - Yeah, the tipster's asking in the chat,

01:56:55   you know, what am I, to kind of recap,

01:56:58   If I'm going to get a new mini this year, which isn't guaranteed, but it is my intention,

01:57:03   what do I care about the existing one?

01:57:06   And the thing of it is that it's perfectly fine with the exception of this stupid hairline crack.

01:57:10   And so I feel terrible, like, not that I would necessarily throw it away,

01:57:14   I'd probably like gazelle it and just take the hit on the cracked screen,

01:57:17   but I feel like this is a perfectly usable device.

01:57:20   I mean, I just told you earlier that I'm using a 3GS every single day in 2015.

01:57:24   To just get rid of this seems so stupid.

01:57:28   Like I could use it for Declan in a year or two maybe.

01:57:30   I could give it to Erin if she wanted it.

01:57:33   There's so many things I could do with this

01:57:35   and so it seems so wrong not to get it fixed.

01:57:37   But geez, for $200 it's probably not worth it.

01:57:41   - Yeah, it's really, it is unlikely to be worth

01:57:44   Apple's fix.

01:57:45   Now, there are also third party fixes.

01:57:47   There's also do it yourself fixes.

01:57:48   I didn't look into any of those options

01:57:50   because I did like five minutes of looking into it

01:57:53   and it seemed like it was not only very difficult,

01:57:55   but also not that much cheaper.

01:57:57   Like I think it was maybe 150 bucks,

01:57:59   it wasn't that much cheaper.

01:58:01   So I was like, ah, it's not worth it.

01:58:03   But that might be worth considering for you.

01:58:06   But I think the better move is probably take the hit,

01:58:08   sell it, and just get something new.

01:58:11   Or do what I did and stick a $10 screen protector on it

01:58:14   and give it to Declan to play stupid games on

01:58:15   'cause kids really don't care.

01:58:17   - Yeah, yeah, I know.

01:58:18   I'm just annoyed, just like before, I'm annoyed at myself

01:58:22   'cause this one is not a quasi-deliberate action,

01:58:26   not that I deliberately poured water on Aaron's back twice,

01:58:28   but I don't know, I wasn't even touching the damn thing

01:58:31   when it broke, so I feel a little less guilty about it,

01:58:36   but I still am frustrated, and I still wanna make it right.

01:58:39   I don't know.

01:58:40   - You make it right by buying yourself a new iPad this fall.

01:58:43   - See, that's the Marco way.

01:58:43   - No, no, I didn't. (laughs)

01:58:45   - That's true.

01:58:46   - This happened to me, and I didn't do that. (laughs)

01:58:49   - Fair enough.

01:58:50   John, anything interesting from you?

01:58:52   Did you break any iPads at the beach?

01:58:54   - I did not break any of my things.

01:58:56   Although when I came home from vacation,

01:58:57   I found that my hot water heater was leaking,

01:58:59   so that's a nice welcome home.

01:59:00   - Did that ruin anything?

01:59:01   What happened?

01:59:02   - It did ruin a rug.

01:59:03   It didn't flood the basement.

01:59:05   It wasn't like all the water in the hot water heater

01:59:07   came out and went onto my floor,

01:59:08   which is good because it would just keep going, right?

01:59:10   But enough water.

01:59:11   - 'Cause that's usually what happens when they fail.

01:59:13   - Right, well, they tend to also fail slowly

01:59:15   and start weeping.

01:59:16   It was just leaking over the course of a week

01:59:18   and covered the floor with barely enough water

01:59:23   to basically soak and ruin a rug,

01:59:24   but didn't cover the whole basement floor.

01:59:26   Anyway, we have a new hot water heater now.

01:59:28   - Did you go tankless?

01:59:30   - No, we talked about it again.

01:59:31   We talk about it every time we replace it.

01:59:33   Still not the thing for us to do.

01:59:35   - And why do you say that?

01:59:37   - That's what they say.

01:59:38   I talk to them about it.

01:59:39   Basically, if you have what we have,

01:59:41   which is like a boiler for making hot water for heat,

01:59:46   an older one that vents to the chimney,

01:59:48   and then you have a hot water heater

01:59:50   and you just wanna replace the hot water heater,

01:59:51   you could go tankless,

01:59:53   but there's still issues of how much pressure can it put out

01:59:55   if you're running all your hot water things

01:59:57   at the same time.

01:59:58   And the better way to do it is to just replace

02:00:00   your entire system with a new high efficiency one

02:00:03   that just vents straight into the outside,

02:00:05   doesn't need to go through the chimney,

02:00:06   and that does the hot water for all your radiators

02:00:08   and the tankless hot water,

02:00:10   and that has more capacity to instantly heat the water.

02:00:14   And we're talking about like basically

02:00:15   when it's cold here in the winter,

02:00:16   you got freezing cold water coming in from the outside

02:00:18   a lot of demand for hot water for all the radiators at the same time you're running,

02:00:22   trying to wash the dishes in the sink with hot water and running a shower, that it's

02:00:26   very difficult to keep up with that.

02:00:28   So we're sure as hell not replacing the entire system down there because it's fine.

02:00:31   If you're just replacing the hot water heater, they recommend it.

02:00:34   And they're recommending me buy a cheaper thing from them with a 10-year warranty.

02:00:39   So I basically trust the fact that if it really was better, they'd try to sell me the much

02:00:44   more expensive tankless thing.

02:00:46   But they say, every time I talk to them, the same company, like, it goes in new construction

02:00:52   all the time because it's like the sort of fancier, more expedient thing to do, but new

02:00:56   construction has an entire high efficiency system, not just like, "Oh, you got an old

02:01:01   boiler that does your hot water," and then next to it we have just the tankless system.

02:01:04   And he still hears complaints from people who get them in new construction that it's

02:01:08   not as good as a big tank.

02:01:09   So we went with a big tank full of hot water.

02:01:12   That is usually the most sensible economical option.

02:01:15   though we have fancier things like my system is fortunately we didn't do it

02:01:19   the people before us did but my system is the kind where there is one boiler

02:01:22   for both heat and a big heat exchange tank for the hot water and so that we

02:01:29   just have one big boiler that can do both and a big tank that it heats up

02:01:32   also and the advantage there you know besides I'm sure there's some efficiency

02:01:37   gains but the the biggest advantage is like according to some guy who looked at

02:01:42   at once is that then the boiler is continually running year round. So that tends to make

02:01:48   them last longer because it isn't going like all the summer months without running at all

02:01:53   and then you start it up in the winter and hope it works. It doesn't have like those

02:01:57   big cycles of non-use for a long time and then turning it on.

02:02:01   But it's still vented to the chimney, right? Not just to the outside of your house?

02:02:04   No, it has a direct outside vent.

02:02:05   All right. Well, so then maybe it's one of those new higher efficiency systems and

02:02:09   Like in mine, I can do the same thing as yours.

02:02:10   Another option is we have a big boiler.

02:02:12   I could also-- it has the hookups and supposedly,

02:02:16   perhaps, the capacity to say, oh, this can also

02:02:18   do your hot water.

02:02:19   But it's like maybe barely got the capacity.

02:02:22   And every time that has come up, it's

02:02:23   like better to just get a dedicated thing

02:02:26   and be independent because it's not a big high efficiency

02:02:30   thing.

02:02:30   And you may be taking a downgrade in how much hot water

02:02:36   and how much hot water pressure you have available to you.

02:02:38   So the new one is actually the same size as the old one, but fancier and like higher recovery

02:02:43   so that once you start using the hot water it will heat up sooner.

02:02:46   Anyway, bottom line is we got the new thing installed and someone went to take a shower.

02:02:51   Like the temperature is turned down like as low as it possibly can be like we always do

02:02:54   in the summer to turn the, you know, the like sort of stand by this little dial you can

02:02:57   turn to say, "How hot do you want me to keep the water in this tank?"

02:03:00   In the summer you can keep it way lower because the water coming in is warmer and you just

02:03:04   don't want hot showers.

02:03:05   We had it in the lowest possible setting and still the first person to take a shower turned

02:03:09   the little knob to like what they normally turn it to.

02:03:11   It was just scalding hot and incredible amount of pressure.

02:03:14   And it was like, all right, the old hot water heater not only was leaking, but obviously

02:03:17   was crap at this point in its life cycle.

02:03:20   It was like seven years old or whatever.

02:03:22   Just one year out of warranty.

02:03:23   They make these things so precisely, you know?

02:03:25   So anyway, new one has a 10 year warranty.

02:03:28   So I need to put a reminder on my calendar for the 10 year anniversary before it starts

02:03:32   leaking.

02:03:33   make the call and don't even bother to see

02:03:36   if it's gonna last 11 or 12 years.

02:03:37   - Right, no, just replace it.

02:03:39   I've been told now from multiple contractors

02:03:41   and plumbers over the last couple years

02:03:43   that water heaters don't last as long as they used to

02:03:45   and that they always die at about 10 years.

02:03:48   And that if you, it's now to the point where

02:03:50   if you buy a home, the home inspector

02:03:53   will flag a 10-year-old water heater

02:03:54   as a problem that needs to be addressed.

02:03:56   - Yeah, and because they fail in ways that cause much more,

02:03:59   you know, they're not that expensive.

02:04:00   And when they fail, potentially big problems

02:04:02   because you don't want your entire basement flooding

02:04:05   with water coming, you know, so.

02:04:06   - Yeah, 'cause usually the way they fail

02:04:07   is the bottom falls off and all the water comes out.

02:04:10   - Yeah, well the bottom falls off slowly.

02:04:11   I've been lucky, the two hot water here

02:04:13   that we bought for this house,

02:04:14   both of the previous ones failed

02:04:15   by starting to leak slowly from the bottom,

02:04:17   which is a good way to fail.

02:04:18   - Yeah.

02:04:19   - Although when you're on vacation,

02:04:20   it's kind of scary that it was slowly leaking

02:04:21   from the bottom for an entire week when we weren't here.

02:04:23   (laughing)

02:04:26   - All right, do you have a door yet?

02:04:27   - No.

02:04:28   - Cool.

02:04:28   - How was the vacation?

02:04:30   - It was fine.

02:04:31   So Casey, besides losing your iPad to your vacation, is that?

02:04:34   - Yeah, it was good.

02:04:35   Declan did not like the water, did not like the water.

02:04:40   - Like the kid. - Like the beach just fine.

02:04:41   Yeah, right?

02:04:42   Like the beach just fine, got him near the water.

02:04:44   And as long as he wasn't touching the water,

02:04:46   everything was mostly okay.

02:04:48   But even just dipping his little feet in the water,

02:04:50   like way up at the very edge of where the wave can reach,

02:04:54   so I'm talking about it's a quarter inch of water on sand.

02:04:58   He did not care for that at all, which is fine.

02:05:00   That's standard baby behavior.

02:05:01   - Yeah, yeah, I'm not bothered by it.

02:05:03   But I will say he is crawling like a champion now,

02:05:08   starting to pull up on things now, sort of.

02:05:11   I mean, he's not standing without holding onto stuff,

02:05:13   but he can stand for a long time like, tri-potted,

02:05:16   so he's got his hands on something

02:05:18   and his feet on the ground.

02:05:20   So that's both wonderful and petrifying all at the same time

02:05:23   but progress is being made.

02:05:25   My parents were here when I was at work.

02:05:27   They tend to come in once a week

02:05:29   to give Erin a little break and let her go grocery shopping without the baby or whatever.

02:05:34   And they said in the last two weeks, because they just hadn't seen him in two weeks, they

02:05:37   said that the change was just tremendous, which I mean, that's to be expected when it's

02:05:41   a baby. I'm not saying that. I'm not trying to be like, "Well, my baby is the most smart

02:05:45   baby ever." It's none of that. It's just, you know, babies change quick, as it turns

02:05:49   out. And so a lot's happening. Big doings around the List household.

02:05:52   But—

02:05:53   You got to concentrate on the weekends when you're home or nights when you're home or

02:05:56   whatever, concentrate on getting him to, if you want to see his first steps, chances are

02:06:01   he'll do it when you're at work, so you have to basically take him during the weekend and

02:06:05   say, "Now we're going to do the first steps," because the only way you're going to see it

02:06:07   is if you make it happen.

02:06:08   Yeah, yeah, and I've been like holding his hands, like when he's standing and trying

02:06:12   to like tilt him forward enough that he's, like just to keep his center of gravity under

02:06:17   him, that's probably not the wrong way to describe it, but anyways, just to keep himself

02:06:20   balanced, you know, he'll have to bring a foot forward, and sometimes he gets it, sometimes

02:06:24   he doesn't. But it's been funny. He's also occasionally mimicking us, sometimes directly,

02:06:30   sometimes vaguely. So like we'll tilt our head from one side to the other, and sometimes he'll

02:06:35   tilt his head the same way and sometimes not. Sometimes we shake our head like no, not to

02:06:40   indicate not to do something, but just to shake left and right. Sometimes he'll like follow that

02:06:45   and shake his head left and right, which is really adorable. He's becoming more and more a person

02:06:50   with each passing day, which is wild.

02:06:53   Shoot, there's something else I was gonna ask you.

02:06:55   Oh, did you get your new camera?

02:06:57   - It's arriving tomorrow.

02:06:59   - Wah, wah.

02:07:00   - So what was in those big boxes, just lenses?

02:07:01   - Lenses, yeah.

02:07:02   And the lens is so tiny, like--

02:07:04   - No, no, no, can we back up just a smidge?

02:07:07   You ordered a new Sony camera that's full frame

02:07:11   with interchangeable lenses, is that correct?

02:07:13   - That is correct.

02:07:14   - Okay, so this is kind of like that crazy Sony

02:07:17   you had at my house for Top Gear a couple years ago

02:07:19   the crazy good low light?

02:07:20   - It is extremely similar in many ways to that,

02:07:22   but just with a larger body and with interchangeable lenses.

02:07:26   And one of the lenses I bought,

02:07:28   yeah, so that was the RX1 that you're talking about,

02:07:30   which I have since sold.

02:07:31   - You sold something, no way.

02:07:32   - Yeah, right.

02:07:33   And one of the lenses I bought

02:07:35   is basically the lens that was on that.

02:07:37   It's a little 35 millimeter prime,

02:07:39   the Sony F2.8 35 prime.

02:07:43   And optically, the measurements are almost identical.

02:07:46   It's about the same size.

02:07:48   Yeah, it's very, very similar.

02:07:50   So, 'cause I love that little,

02:07:52   that focal length and the small package.

02:07:54   But yeah, so the camera I got is the A7R II.

02:08:00   And it just came out today.

02:08:04   And my order from B&H, which I placed iPhone style

02:08:09   by refreshing the page back when it went for sale in June.

02:08:12   And it just shipped today in the US.

02:08:15   So I will have it tomorrow,

02:08:17   because I'm very close to B&H's warehouse.

02:08:19   So everything I get from there comes in one day.

02:08:21   And yeah, so I got the 35 2.8 prime.

02:08:25   I got the 55 1.8, which is one of the best lenses

02:08:29   in the world by most measures.

02:08:31   And I ordered the 90 macro, which is very, very new,

02:08:36   but everyone seems to think it's amazing so far.

02:08:38   It's getting stellar reviews.

02:08:39   So this is my first upgrade to my big camera.

02:08:44   since the RX1 maybe, when I bought that like two years ago,

02:08:48   but that was kind of a temporary thing

02:08:50   that I ended up not sticking with.

02:08:52   Before that, my last upgrade to my big camera

02:08:55   and the last upgrade that I had to interchangeable lenses

02:08:57   was in 2008 with the 5D Mark II.

02:09:01   So it's been a long time coming.

02:09:03   This one I totally replace using any canons for me.

02:09:08   Tiff is still using the canons

02:09:09   and she still does photo shoots, so we will see.

02:09:12   She's interested in the new camera,

02:09:15   and so maybe we might convert the whole system over.

02:09:18   I'm at least most likely going to sell

02:09:20   some of the Canon lenses that we don't really use

02:09:23   out in TIFF's photo shoots,

02:09:26   because I'm never gonna use them again.

02:09:29   - So why wouldn't a professional photographer

02:09:32   wanna use a full-frame camera with interchangeable lenses?

02:09:36   Let's suppose you were really good at photography,

02:09:39   but you sold all your stuff,

02:09:40   you were doing other things for a while,

02:09:42   but now you're starting the business back up

02:09:44   and you're looking to buy all new cameras, all new glass.

02:09:48   Why not buy this?

02:09:50   What's wrong with this?

02:09:51   - The biggest thing for pros,

02:09:53   and a lot of pros are buying this, so that's one thing.

02:09:57   And one of the reasons why I think TIFF is likely

02:10:00   to stick with the 5D Mark IIs, we have two of them.

02:10:04   We each got one in 2008.

02:10:06   And one of the reasons why we're likely to stick

02:10:08   with those for a while is the same reason

02:10:09   why we haven't upgraded since two thousand and eight because

02:10:13   there's a lot of inertia there like we have we have probably

02:10:17   five or six batteries for it. We have tons of compact flash

02:10:22   memory cards for it. Some, you know, very good quality ones

02:10:25   that are very expensive. We have a battery grip for one of

02:10:29   them. We have a cable remote with a timer for time lapse

02:10:32   remote. We have four speed light flashes to old ones that

02:10:38   kind of flaky and two new ones that I bought

02:10:39   to replace them recently.

02:10:41   We just have so many accessories that are not universal,

02:10:46   that only work with those cameras.

02:10:48   We have so many accessories for them that like,

02:10:50   we didn't even upgrade to the Canon 5D Mark III,

02:10:53   because the 5D Mark II was so good,

02:10:55   and the Mark III, for our purposes,

02:10:57   didn't seem like a very compelling upgrade

02:10:59   to replace all those gear that we would've had to replace.

02:11:01   We have, you know, in addition to all the Canon lenses

02:11:04   and everything, so there's a lot of inertia

02:11:05   behind sticking with what we have.

02:11:06   - But if that wasn't the case,

02:11:07   If you didn't have any of that, what would prevent you?

02:11:11   Is the viewfinder not optical?

02:11:13   Does that even matter anymore?

02:11:15   What would cause that?

02:11:16   - In anything mirrorless, basically,

02:11:17   I know there's gonna be some exception weird,

02:11:19   but basically, the viewfinder is not optical.

02:11:21   It's not like what you think of when you think of an SLR,

02:11:23   where you are looking through a prism,

02:11:25   across a mirror, across out the lens.

02:11:29   That is what defines an SLR, is the single lens reflex.

02:11:33   It's like you're looking through the lens

02:11:35   with this mirror thing that flips up

02:11:37   when you take a picture and expose it to the sensor.

02:11:39   So mirrorless cameras lack that.

02:11:41   And yes, there's range finders and other weird things,

02:11:43   but basically, mirrorless cameras lack that.

02:11:45   And there are a lot of advantages to that.

02:11:48   There's a lot that is very nice

02:11:51   that I really enjoy about that,

02:11:52   and this is a bit of a leap of faith for me, too.

02:11:54   In the process of renting this,

02:11:55   I also rented the Nikon D750,

02:11:58   which is a fantastic traditional style SLR.

02:12:01   It is excellent in so many ways.

02:12:03   It has an amazing focus system.

02:12:05   has amazing low-light performance, amazing sensor made by Sony, coincidentally, and it

02:12:10   is a fantastic camera in many ways. The reason why a pro might choose that, besides the handling

02:12:17   and just preferring the looking through the lens directly through the optical thing and

02:12:21   everything, is mostly just because there are certain things that appeal to pros and certain

02:12:26   things that pros need. So certain things that appeal to them, there's a huge, there's a

02:12:30   much larger library of available lenses, first of all. Now, granted, you have to, you know,

02:12:34   pick a system, so you gotta pick Nikon or Canon or even the big Sonys but nobody picks

02:12:38   those. And if you buy a Nikon camera, you gotta use Nikon lenses. And there are adapters

02:12:45   and there are adapters to use Nikon or Canon lenses on the Sony cameras, but you give up

02:12:52   some things. Some of them don't work quite right. Some of them don't focus very quickly

02:12:57   if at all. Some of them, they have little bugs, little glitches, little setbacks. The

02:13:03   are all these kind of like hacky, third party things

02:13:05   that are not supported by anybody.

02:13:07   So it's really not, if you have lenses that you want to use

02:13:11   from Canon or Nikon's big lens lamps that stretch back

02:13:16   like 20 years, 30 years or longer,

02:13:19   you can't really use those well on a small mirrorless camera

02:13:22   you can use them usually through the adapter

02:13:23   but you can't use them well.

02:13:25   You're better off just getting the native body if you can.

02:13:28   And because these mirrorless cameras have been around

02:13:30   for way less time, the lens lamps are just way smaller.

02:13:34   Like, one of my favorite lenses on the Canon

02:13:36   is the 135 F2 Prime, it is awesome.

02:13:39   There is no equivalent to that,

02:13:42   that I can mount on the Sony that is native.

02:13:44   There are some that I can mount through adapters

02:13:45   and then I don't have autofocus and everything,

02:13:48   or I can mount the Canon one and have autofocus

02:13:50   but it might be weird, I don't know.

02:13:53   Regardless, like, there's no native one.

02:13:54   And so that's, you know, the lens library is small.

02:13:57   That'll change over time, but that is still the case.

02:13:59   There's also things like there's no great first party flashes that have amazing metering

02:14:04   as far as I know.

02:14:05   Like there's some, you can use any flash and you can have it, you can manually meter it,

02:14:09   but that's not as good.

02:14:10   And so there's all sorts of stuff like that.

02:14:11   There's just a lot more like limitations in what kind of gear is available.

02:14:17   And then there's also things that a lot of pros either need really or at least would

02:14:23   want.

02:14:24   So one of the biggest downsides to the Sony full frame system is that the cameras have

02:14:29   terrible battery lives because they're really small, they're really high powered, you know,

02:14:35   computationally, and they have these little tiny batteries that, like, the battery for

02:14:41   a full size SLR can last like five times as long and plus the SLRs are not lighting up

02:14:45   screens constantly in the viewfinder. So that's like these little cameras have terrible battery

02:14:50   lives. That is the biggest downside to me. Also, for pro

02:14:54   use, the cameras are usually not weather sealed, which a lot

02:14:59   of pros need and many pros want, and they are also, I don't

02:15:03   think any of them have some of the more unusual but sometimes

02:15:07   needed pro features like dual memory slots. So there's like

02:15:11   stuff like that. Like there's just there's some features that

02:15:13   pros need or want that are not available on mirrorless cameras

02:15:18   and are probably not gonna come soon.

02:15:22   So we'll see what happens.

02:15:23   I'm very happy not being a pro in this way right now.

02:15:27   Back in 2008, we bought the Pro 5D

02:15:33   because it was the only way to get

02:15:35   really great image quality.

02:15:37   The difference, I mean, your camera's awesome, Casey,

02:15:40   but the difference between full frame

02:15:44   and not full frame is large.

02:15:47   this is not a small difference.

02:15:49   It is a very big difference,

02:15:51   and we just loved that difference.

02:15:53   And back then there was a much bigger gap also.

02:15:57   Now the gap is smaller, but it was much bigger back then.

02:16:00   - Well, it's also a considerably larger financial penalty

02:16:03   as well, right?

02:16:04   Because I got a really, really beautiful lens,

02:16:08   or at least I feel like it is,

02:16:09   and on top of the kit, and off the top of my head,

02:16:14   I wanna say it was about $1,500 all in.

02:16:16   So the kit lens, which is a little zoom,

02:16:18   and this really good lens, it's not a pancake,

02:16:22   but it's a really solid prime

02:16:23   that Sean Blanc recommended, which I love.

02:16:27   I couldn't even tell you the statistics off the top of my head.

02:16:29   But anyways, that was like $1,500 all in.

02:16:33   And I'm going to, you don't have to tell me a number,

02:16:35   but I'm going to guess that you're in a lot more than that

02:16:38   for this full frame camera.

02:16:39   - A lot more than that, yeah.

02:16:40   I mean, and you can, I mean,

02:16:41   part of it's 'cause I just got like

02:16:42   the cutting edge best model.

02:16:44   - Sure.

02:16:45   is I'm me and also because I don't upgrade these things

02:16:47   very often.

02:16:49   So part of it is that certainly I think even if you get

02:16:53   like a more reasonably priced one, you're looking at for

02:16:57   a good lens and a good body, you're looking at over 2,000

02:17:00   probably for this type.

02:17:02   But regardless, so yeah, that's what I got.

02:17:07   It arrives tomorrow.

02:17:08   There is no like massive full review available of it yet,

02:17:13   so it's a bit of a risk, but based on the early,

02:17:16   I rented its predecessor, the A7 II,

02:17:18   I rented that back right before I rented the D750.

02:17:21   I rented that, and it has basically an identical body,

02:17:26   an identical handling, identical menus,

02:17:28   that there's almost no difference in the physical side.

02:17:31   So I know that I like shooting with it,

02:17:33   it just has a different sensor and a better sensor.

02:17:37   So anyway, I don't think it's that much of a risk,

02:17:39   but we'll see.

02:17:40   I have no idea.

02:17:42   (beep)