ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► Sometimes people just like to have something to fiddle with their fingers.

00:00:03 ◼   ► [

00:00:08 ◼   ► BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

00:00:04 ◼   ► What else going on?

00:00:06 ◼   ► Nothing, because we have nothing in the follow-up section this week,

00:00:08 ◼   ► except for an item we decided we're not talking about this week, and that's it.

00:00:11 ◼   ► So we actually genuinely have no follow-up for real, as confirmed by John Zirocusa himself.

00:00:18 ◼   ► We had a long, you know, I was away on vacation, and we, you know, we had a weird recording schedule.

00:00:23 ◼   ► What the hell was our last show about? It was so long ago.

00:00:26 ◼   ► It doesn't really matter. I don't know.

00:00:28 ◼   ► So, yeah, we should, I guess, talk about Skylake, because that's a thing as of today.

00:00:33 ◼   ► as of today?

00:00:35 ◼   ► - Well, sort of.

00:00:36 ◼   ► I mean, I think the most boring Skylake chips launch today,

00:00:39 ◼   ► the ones that go in like iMacs and desktops.

00:00:42 ◼   ► - Oh, are they the most boring?

00:00:43 ◼   ► I think Intel thinks that they're the most exciting

00:00:46 ◼   ► because they are extreme to use the 90s parlance.

00:00:49 ◼   ► Like they're the unlocked, able to be overclocked.

00:00:53 ◼   ► Like Intel is actually talking about overclocking in them.

00:00:56 ◼   ► You know what I mean?

00:00:56 ◼   ► Like they're the ones,

00:00:57 ◼   ► they're sort of the PC enthusiast chips.

00:00:59 ◼   ► Not that there's many of them left,

00:01:00 ◼   ► but like maybe they think that's like the only place

00:01:03 ◼   ► it is a potentially a growth market.

00:01:04 ◼   ► So I don't think they are the most boring ones.

00:01:07 ◼   ► Maybe they're the least relevant

00:01:09 ◼   ► to people who buy Apple computers,

00:01:11 ◼   ► because like you said,

00:01:12 ◼   ► these are just gonna be the ones that go on the iMacs

00:01:14 ◼   ► and the ones that go on the iMacs

00:01:15 ◼   ► aren't gonna be overclocked

00:01:16 ◼   ► and it's gonna be the middle range one

00:01:18 ◼   ► with the Iris Pro graphics and it's like, whatever.

00:01:21 ◼   ► But I think Intel,

00:01:24 ◼   ► 'cause they were released and announced,

00:01:25 ◼   ► so what is it, Gamescom?

00:01:26 ◼   ► What the hell's the name of that conference?

00:01:28 ◼   ► - Yeah, it doesn't matter.

00:01:29 ◼   ► - Anyway, a gaming related thing.

00:01:30 ◼   ► And so they're going to releasing the chips

00:01:32 ◼   ► that would be of interest to people

00:01:35 ◼   ► who are building gaming PCs.

00:01:36 ◼   ► And they wanna know, I'm building my next gaming PC,

00:01:39 ◼   ► I want to maybe overclock it,

00:01:41 ◼   ► maybe I wanna put two, three, four GPUs,

00:01:46 ◼   ► graphics cards inside it,

00:01:47 ◼   ► and gang them together in some way.

00:01:49 ◼   ► And so, yeah, these--

00:01:50 ◼   ► - It's really about ethics and overclocking.

00:01:52 ◼   ► - Oh my God.

00:01:53 ◼   ► - These are exciting, well, Intel thinks they're exciting,

00:01:56 ◼   ► but you're saying they're not exciting

00:01:57 ◼   ► because they're not like the ones

00:01:59 ◼   ► that are gonna go in most of the Macs that Apple sells,

00:02:02 ◼   ► which are the laptops, and they're not anything that would ever go into Mac Pro, right?

00:02:07 ◼   ► No, but it isn't even just that. I'm saying even for the markets that they are intended

00:02:11 ◼   ► for, I think it's an incremental update at best. What is apparently the big thing with

00:02:19 ◼   ► Skylake is really, it's a small incremental improvement in performance, but it's an allegedly

00:02:27 ◼   ► substantial improvement in power consumption and battery life. And so to have these high

00:02:32 ◼   ► clock desktop chips come out that are high wattage, high clocks, not meant for laptops

00:02:36 ◼   ► where the power stuff is probably not super tuned in or at least super emphasized, it's

00:02:43 ◼   ► interesting but only on a mild level for a very small number of people. It doesn't really

00:02:49 ◼   ► matter if the desktop chips get 10% more power efficient. It doesn't have that big of an

00:02:54 ◼   ► effect on them. Yeah, yeah, you can slam against the TDP more and get a little more clock speed

00:02:59 ◼   ► out of it maybe, but for the most part, the exciting part here is when these come to laptops.

00:03:06 ◼   ► We have heard so many things that Skylake is going to be this major power improvement

00:03:10 ◼   ► and everything. The reality is that matters so much more in laptops. So if we can actually

00:03:16 ◼   ► get 20% more performance in a laptop or 20% more battery life, that's way more impressive.

00:03:24 ◼   ► and that could really, that could make a big difference

00:03:27 ◼   ► in things like the MacBook One or the 11 inch Air

00:03:29 ◼   ► where the battery right now is pretty short,

00:03:33 ◼   ► really for what you need it for.

00:03:35 ◼   ► Or it could allow Apple to, you know,

00:03:38 ◼   ► obviously I would hope, with like the 15 inch line,

00:03:41 ◼   ► I would hope they would use this new savings

00:03:43 ◼   ► to just bank some battery life and bring it up

00:03:46 ◼   ► like to 12 hours instead of nine or something like that,

00:03:48 ◼   ► you know, or bring it up to six hours of heavy use

00:03:51 ◼   ► instead of five or four, that'd be great.

00:03:54 ◼   ► In reality, what's probably going to happen instead

00:03:56 ◼   ► is they're probably gonna just redesign the 15 inch

00:03:59 ◼   ► to make it thinner and lighter.

00:04:00 ◼   ► And you know, I don't love that they keep doing that,

00:04:03 ◼   ► but it's at least interesting and exciting

00:04:05 ◼   ► and certainly a lot of people like that.

00:04:08 ◼   ► And so, you know, that's where the action's gonna be

00:04:10 ◼   ► with Skylake is when it comes to the laptops.

00:04:13 ◼   ► In the meantime, you know, I don't,

00:04:16 ◼   ► as it's sitting here in desktops and not even the Mac Pro,

00:04:18 ◼   ► it's just sitting here like in high-end,

00:04:21 ◼   ► mostly PC desktops and maybe the iMacs,

00:04:24 ◼   ► That just isn't that interesting to me.

00:04:26 ◼   ► - So I haven't read too much about these chips

00:04:29 ◼   ► and I think not everything has been released

00:04:30 ◼   ► because even though they were sort of launched

00:04:32 ◼   ► at this game thing, the technical details,

00:04:36 ◼   ► according to NonTech anyway, are not coming out

00:04:38 ◼   ► until Intel's developer forum thing,

00:04:41 ◼   ► like where they're gonna tell you

00:04:42 ◼   ► about the guts of the stuff.

00:04:43 ◼   ► But this is their, oh god, what the hell is it,

00:04:46 ◼   ► TOC, right?

00:04:47 ◼   ► The new architecture.

00:04:49 ◼   ► It's the same, it's not a shrink.

00:04:50 ◼   ► It's still 14 nanometers.

00:04:53 ◼   ► It's their talk, it's a new architecture, but what is new and different about that architecture,

00:04:58 ◼   ► I don't think we know the details yet officially.

00:05:03 ◼   ► And this thing that we'll link in the show is benchmarking them all, like, not impressive

00:05:07 ◼   ► performance game for the desktop ones, some weird things where it's actually like a couple

00:05:10 ◼   ► percent slower due to some issue they couldn't work out when using external GPU, but whatever.

00:05:16 ◼   ► Like a low single digit percent increase on the stuff that you're doing.

00:05:23 ◼   ► Like Marco said power savings are not of interest for the desktop things because it's like whatever that's similar power range of the other chips

00:05:29 ◼   ► If this is a new architecture, what is different about it that's going to give us this supposed

00:05:36 ◼   ► Big increase in power savings because normally you think you get you'd get a big increase in power savings. Maybe with a shrink, right?

00:05:43 ◼   ► But this is not a shrink. It's just an architectural change and I guess like I'm reading this article

00:05:49 ◼   ► I can see how they can get a little bit of savings out here from moving execution units around and having like the display

00:05:54 ◼   ► some some fixed function hardware in the

00:05:57 ◼   ► Display chipset so you don't have to send data out through DRAM and back into the GPU and all you know all sorts of

00:06:03 ◼   ► small changes to save power lower voltage for

00:06:07 ◼   ► The memory interfaces and stuff like that

00:06:10 ◼   ► But I you know we don't know at least I don't know the technical details of the internet

00:06:16 ◼   ► So I'm curious to where the big savings are coming from.

00:06:19 ◼   ► I mean, I believe that they're there from, you know,

00:06:21 ◼   ► our tipster and other people, you know,

00:06:23 ◼   ► speculating about Skylikes,

00:06:25 ◼   ► saying that that is gonna be the selling point

00:06:27 ◼   ► of this line of ships, that it's gonna be,

00:06:28 ◼   ► well, who cares, not a big deal for desktops,

00:06:30 ◼   ► but for laptops, you should see a nice power savings.

00:06:34 ◼   ► I wanna know where that power savings comes from

00:06:35 ◼   ► because I think that'll be interesting,

00:06:36 ◼   ► especially if it's not like they,

00:06:38 ◼   ► it's clear that they didn't spend their time

00:06:39 ◼   ► working on performance 'cause it's like,

00:06:41 ◼   ► well, performance, you know, whatever,

00:06:42 ◼   ► it's basically a wash, maybe a little bit better.

00:06:45 ◼   ► But power savings, boy that's gonna be great.

00:06:46 ◼   ► And we did it without a shrink, how did we do it?

00:06:49 ◼   ► So I look forward to those details when they are revealed.

00:06:52 ◼   ► - Our first sponsor this week is our friends

00:06:55 ◼   ► at Cards Against Humanity.

00:06:56 ◼   ► And as usual, they have, instead of a normal ad read,

00:06:59 ◼   ► they have asked Jon to review a toaster.

00:07:02 ◼   ► ♪ Syracuse are talking about toasters ♪

00:07:05 ◼   ► ♪ More exciting than a rollercoaster ♪

00:07:08 ◼   ► ♪ Will it fit on his countertop ♪

00:07:10 ◼   ► ♪ I hope the reviews never stop ♪

00:07:13 ◼   ► This week's toaster is the Hamilton Beach 31330 Toaster Oven.

00:07:18 ◼   ► This is a pretty big toaster.

00:07:22 ◼   ► It is what I would call a four-slice toaster.

00:07:26 ◼   ► Although, of course, the manufacturer claims

00:07:27 ◼   ► that it's a six-slice toaster,

00:07:29 ◼   ► but this claim requires the standard miniature bread

00:07:31 ◼   ► that they use in the toaster oven box shots, right?

00:07:35 ◼   ► They don't put anything in there for scale,

00:07:36 ◼   ► but honestly, that bread is microscopic.

00:07:38 ◼   ► So anyway, four slices comfortably.

00:07:40 ◼   ► Like Mr. Burns, this toaster has a mighty hump

00:07:43 ◼   ► on the back of it.

00:07:44 ◼   ► - Ew.

00:07:45 ◼   ► - Those humps, you know the humps I'm talking about

00:07:46 ◼   ► where it's like, at some point in the past decade or so,

00:07:49 ◼   ► all toasters grew humps of some kind

00:07:50 ◼   ► because someone decided that it's great

00:07:53 ◼   ► to be able to advertise a toaster oven

00:07:54 ◼   ► by showing a picture of a pizza inside it.

00:07:56 ◼   ► And of course, the pizza's not gonna fit

00:07:57 ◼   ► in a rectangular oven very easily,

00:07:59 ◼   ► but if you put a little rounded hump in the back of it,

00:08:00 ◼   ► you get a little extra room to shove your pizza in there

00:08:02 ◼   ► and blah, blah, blah.

00:08:03 ◼   ► - You know, my toaster does not have this, John.

00:08:05 ◼   ► - You don't have any hump?

00:08:06 ◼   ► You sure? - No, it's flat.

00:08:08 ◼   ► - Is it pre-hump?

00:08:08 ◼   ► pre-hump toaster. Yeah. Wow. So you're pretty old. My toaster that you said was inferior

00:08:13 ◼   ► to your toaster does not have the hump. Yeah. I have a small hump. Most of them have humps.

00:08:18 ◼   ► But anyway, this, it's made, the hump is made to look larger because this toaster is skinnier

00:08:22 ◼   ► at the top than at the bottom. So honestly, like, maybe the hump is only a couple inches,

00:08:27 ◼   ► right? Maybe it's the same size as the average, but it looks huge. It really stands out the

00:08:30 ◼   ► way this toaster is shaped. The wire rack is kind of medium gauge. The wire rack is

00:08:34 ◼   ► not rectangular. It's like a rectangle and then there's this extra little thing, like

00:08:37 ◼   ► a little house poking out the back that goes into the hump section.

00:08:40 ◼   ► That's how big the hump is, the wire rack is like, it's a rectangle with another thing

00:08:44 ◼   ► attached to it sticking out of there.

00:08:47 ◼   ► Supposedly again, the purpose of the hump is to accommodate a round pan for something

00:08:51 ◼   ► like a pizza, but this toaster does not come with a round pan, which seems weird that this

00:08:54 ◼   ► is such a prominent hump and it doesn't actually come with a round pan or a round rack or anything.

00:08:58 ◼   ► I love the promo pictures, they show a pizza sitting on top of the wire rack of the toaster,

00:09:03 ◼   ► just on top of the wire, not even in a pan.

00:09:06 ◼   ► I feel like that would be a disaster.

00:09:07 ◼   ► they would have to already be done before it's put in there.

00:09:09 ◼   ► Right, yeah, you cook it and you put, if you put a fake pizza made out of wax or whatever

00:09:13 ◼   ► they make the food out of, you know, when they take pictures of it so it doesn't melt

00:09:15 ◼   ► under the hot lights.

00:09:17 ◼   ► Anyway, it comes with a rectangular pan.

00:09:20 ◼   ► The rectangular pan doesn't quite fill the toaster edge to edge.

00:09:23 ◼   ► I don't know if they did that on purpose to try to allow hot air to come around or whatever,

00:09:27 ◼   ► but it seems like kind of a shame.

00:09:29 ◼   ► Plus there's a little small wire rack that goes in the pan.

00:09:32 ◼   ► The knob situation, this is a three-knob toaster.

00:09:35 ◼   ► one is for temperature, but you still need to set it to toast if you want to toast. Middle

00:09:39 ◼   ► one is for function, toast, bake, whatever. Bottom one is the timer knob. And this is

00:09:44 ◼   ► one more toaster where all three knobs have to be in the right position in order for you

00:09:47 ◼   ► to toast. You've got to make sure the top knob is on toast, and you've got to turn the

00:09:50 ◼   ► function thing on toast, and you've got to turn the bottom knob every single time to

00:09:54 ◼   ► a particular angle. This one on the knob also says, "Please turn the timer knob past 15

00:09:58 ◼   ► and then back to the time that you want every time."

00:10:01 ◼   ► Oh, gross.

00:10:02 ◼   ► I don't even know if you need to do that because I think it feels like you can just turn it

00:10:05 ◼   ► to like, you know, they have a very limited range, like maybe 10 or 15 degrees that constitutes

00:10:09 ◼   ► the entire range of toasting, and you have to turn it in that range.

00:10:13 ◼   ► The knob feels okay, they don't wiggle or feel loose, they feel like, you know, solid,

00:10:18 ◼   ► but they're pretty darn hard to turn, they're not very grippy, they're like actually kind

00:10:21 ◼   ► of hard to turn.

00:10:23 ◼   ► And the indicator of like where the knob is pointing is just kind of like a dull pill

00:10:27 ◼   ► shaped lump in the shiny metal or shiny plastic face of the knob.

00:10:33 ◼   ► And the knobs are pretty tall, so you're trying to line up like sort of a indistinct capsule

00:10:38 ◼   ► shaped lump in the metal that's on a knob that's like an inch off the surface and you're

00:10:43 ◼   ► like way above on an angle and you're trying to line up that lump with like the exact unmarked

00:10:47 ◼   ► spot in the 10 to 20 degree range that constitutes toasting depending on like what angle you're

00:10:54 ◼   ► looking at.

00:10:55 ◼   ► It's really not easy to get repeatable stuff in it and it just doesn't, it feels like too

00:10:59 ◼   ► much effort like you're turning a little, especially if you have to turn it past 15

00:11:02 ◼   ► like force it back, not a great experience.

00:11:06 ◼   ► It's got four unshielded resistive heating elements in it,

00:11:09 ◼   ► which I knew were gonna be slower than the big,

00:11:12 ◼   ► thicker, quartzy looking things.

00:11:15 ◼   ► Four minute, 30 second toast time, not great,

00:11:18 ◼   ► at least it's not over five minutes,

00:11:20 ◼   ► but when it does toast, it's pretty even.

00:11:22 ◼   ► One edge was a little bit darker than the other,

00:11:24 ◼   ► but it was kind of like a smooth gradient.

00:11:26 ◼   ► I would say it makes acceptable toast.

00:11:28 ◼   ► Takes a little bit too long.

00:11:30 ◼   ► Crumb tray, blessedly, comes straight out,

00:11:32 ◼   ► so you're much less likely to dump the crumbs

00:11:34 ◼   ► back into the toaster when you're trying to remove it,

00:11:35 ◼   ► so thumbs up on that.

00:11:37 ◼   ► Door feels a little flimsy, but at least it opens all the way

00:11:39 ◼   ► and you don't feel like you're breaking it at any point.

00:11:42 ◼   ► The little claws on the door,

00:11:44 ◼   ► that like when you pull the door out,

00:11:46 ◼   ► also pull the tray out a little bit.

00:11:48 ◼   ► This toaster has the same problem as the other ones

00:11:50 ◼   ► where it has two different positions for the rack

00:11:52 ◼   ► and you're supposed to use the middle or a higher position

00:11:54 ◼   ► when you're making toast.

00:11:55 ◼   ► But the little claws, like we talked about,

00:11:57 ◼   ► how do you deal with the little claws that pull the tray out

00:11:59 ◼   ► pull the wire rack out when the wire rack can be in two different positions.

00:12:02 ◼   ► And a couple of the new manufacturers had clever things.

00:12:05 ◼   ► The fancy Breville one has like magnets, which I think are really cool to pull it out.

00:12:08 ◼   ► This one just punts on it and says, "You know what?

00:12:10 ◼   ► Our little claws are only going to pull the tray out when it's in the bottom position.

00:12:12 ◼   ► When it's in the top position, the little claws do nothing."

00:12:14 ◼   ► Which is kind of lame.

00:12:17 ◼   ► I don't know who made that decision.

00:12:18 ◼   ► Especially since most of the time you're using it in toast mode, aren't you?

00:12:22 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:12:23 ◼   ► Maybe most of the time people are using it in oven mode.

00:12:24 ◼   ► But anyway, it seems lame.

00:12:25 ◼   ► I have never until now considered the possibility that a toaster oven would have multiple rack heights

00:12:31 ◼   ► Are we supposed to be changing our rack height depending on what we cook because I'd never have does yours have multiple rack heights

00:12:37 ◼   ► I have no idea. I've never even looked. It's pre hump. It could be pre multiple rack heights

00:12:40 ◼   ► So the one that we had until it broke recently and so I am toaster oven lists, which is terrible

00:12:47 ◼   ► I know a guy who has some extras. Yeah, so I hear it had a very interesting design. It had a

00:12:53 ◼   ► wire rack that was

00:12:55 ◼   ► Kind of in an upside or kind of in a u-shape sort of I mean it was flattened

00:13:01 ◼   ► but the way it would work is you would put it in with

00:13:04 ◼   ► when it looked like a U and

00:13:06 ◼   ► It would be very close to the bottom of the toaster and then if you put it so that it was an upside down U

00:13:12 ◼   ► It would bring the rack such that it was about the middle of the toaster. Don't you listen to my reviews?

00:13:18 ◼   ► I just reviewed a toaster that had an exact feature a couple weeks ago

00:13:21 ◼   ► Maybe it's the same toaster anyway yours might have different heights

00:13:24 ◼   ► I think a lot of people buy these never look at the manual and if there's nothing written on the surface of the toaster

00:13:28 ◼   ► They just put the rack wherever they want it to and that's it. But yeah in the recent maybe five years ten years

00:13:35 ◼   ► Most toaster ovens have been coming with racks with either multiple positions

00:13:39 ◼   ► Yeah

00:13:40 ◼   ► Usually multiple issues because the higher position the position it looks crazy to all of us like when we were growing up the toasters all

00:13:45 ◼   ► Had the racks way down low on the bottom. That's the only place they would go. That was that

00:13:49 ◼   ► Now, toaster ovens all seem to have a higher position.

00:13:52 ◼   ► It looks way too high, but that's where they want you to do basically everything except

00:13:56 ◼   ► for bake.

00:13:57 ◼   ► They want you to toast there, they want you to broil there.

00:13:59 ◼   ► Only if you're baking, you're supposed to bring it down to the bottom.

00:14:01 ◼   ► This one is no different.

00:14:02 ◼   ► When you were toasting, it wants you to put the rack in sort of the midpoint of the oven.

00:14:07 ◼   ► Only when you're baking, you're supposed to put it down on the bottom.

00:14:09 ◼   ► This seemed like a step backwards in toaster oven convenience, because the whole point

00:14:12 ◼   ► of this thing is like, you can put basically anything in a toaster oven and get okay results

00:14:17 ◼   ► out of it with very little effort.

00:14:18 ◼   ► Why don't you start putting in the complexity of multiple rack heights and…

00:14:21 ◼   ► It's not that complicated.

00:14:22 ◼   ► Like, I feel like the toaster oven is used either mostly as an oven or mostly as a toaster.

00:14:26 ◼   ► So this is kind of a default position.

00:14:27 ◼   ► And honestly, if you just leave it in the high position, it bakes things fine.

00:14:31 ◼   ► Mostly they want you to use the bottom rack because if you're baking something that

00:14:33 ◼   ► is tall so that it doesn't get like if you're baking something like… even just a big baked

00:14:38 ◼   ► potato maybe starts getting too close to the heating elements on top so you want to move

00:14:41 ◼   ► it down.

00:14:42 ◼   ► But I don't think it's that big of a deal.

00:14:45 ◼   ► I think it is an improvement because when they were on the bottom it was basically impossible

00:14:48 ◼   ► to get even toasting because you're so close to the bottom elements and so far from the

00:14:52 ◼   ► top ones that it was always, you know, crap shoot.

00:14:55 ◼   ► When they're in the middle it's better.

00:14:56 ◼   ► But anyway, overall for this toaster I give it a passing grade.

00:14:59 ◼   ► Nothing on it is terrible.

00:15:01 ◼   ► Nothing on it is particularly great but it is certainly better than some of the really,

00:15:04 ◼   ► really bad toasters that we reviewed recently.

00:15:06 ◼   ► And it's 50 bucks-ish so it feels quality-wise like a $50 toaster but yeah, it just barely

00:15:14 ◼   ► it's passing great I think. A glowing review.

00:15:30 ◼   ► Thank you very much to Cards Against Humanity for sponsoring once again.

00:15:33 ◼   ► Okay, so I have big news in an otherwise completely empty week. Are you guys sitting down?

00:15:42 ◼   ► Are you running for president?

00:15:44 ◼   ► I am running for president as a Republican like the rest of the country is.

00:15:47 ◼   ► No, not really.

00:15:48 ◼   ► Let's talk about that.

00:15:49 ◼   ► People will love that.

00:15:50 ◼   ► Oh, let's not.

00:15:51 ◼   ► No, there's not a fast text update.

00:15:53 ◼   ► I have joined 2013.

00:15:56 ◼   ► 2012.

00:15:57 ◼   ► 2012, whatever.

00:15:59 ◼   ► I have a retina Mac now.

00:16:02 ◼   ► Woo!

00:16:03 ◼   ► Do you have it or is this a work computer?

00:16:06 ◼   ► Well, it's sitting next to me, but it belongs to work.

00:16:09 ◼   ► All right.

00:16:10 ◼   ► Well, that's close.

00:16:11 ◼   ► I mean, that's baby steps, you know, that helps.

00:16:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, I'm taking a step in the right direction.

00:16:16 ◼   ► So the funny thing behind this is,

00:16:18 ◼   ► I was talking in Slack with a bunch of people,

00:16:22 ◼   ► including the two of you guys, about, you know,

00:16:26 ◼   ► it's about time for me to get a new personal machine.

00:16:29 ◼   ► I have Aaron's MacBook Air that I'm using right now,

00:16:32 ◼   ► which has been under water about eight times.

00:16:34 ◼   ► I have two late 2011 high-res anti-glare MacBook Pros,

00:16:39 ◼   ► One with a platter drive and 8 gigs of RAM, which is mine.

00:16:43 ◼   ► One with a SSD and 16 gigs of RAM, which is works.

00:16:48 ◼   ► I knew it was about time to upgrade.

00:16:51 ◼   ► And I knew I should probably wait for Skylake, and so I knew I wasn't going to order anything

00:16:54 ◼   ► for me anytime soon, until the Skylake one comes out.

00:16:59 ◼   ► But I've been working really hard lately.

00:17:01 ◼   ► I'm really getting sick of my work computer having screaming fans anytime I do anything.

00:17:08 ◼   ► Really, I was supposed to get an upgrade in June at my three-year work anniversary because that's when AppleCare runs out and

00:17:13 ◼   ► I didn't get one then for various and sundry reasons and so today just mostly to be snarky I

00:17:20 ◼   ► emailed our IT guy and was like hey just a reminder not only is this computer three years old in that I've received it three

00:17:27 ◼   ► Years ago, but even when I got it at that point we weren't buying new Macs

00:17:31 ◼   ► We were buying refurbished old Macs and so even though I got it in mid 2012. It's actually a late 2011 Mac and

00:17:37 ◼   ► So I said that really just to kind of remind him that I'm looking for a new Mac at some point

00:17:43 ◼   ► Next thing I know he's going to the Apple store and getting me a 15-inch retina MacBook Pro

00:17:49 ◼   ► Which if you're gonna choose a problem to have is a pretty solid problem to have so

00:17:54 ◼   ► Yeah, so I got a maxed out 15-inch retina MacBook Pro the funny thing about it was I had concluded along

00:18:02 ◼   ► Well really because of the tutelage of Steven Hackett Marco and a few others

00:18:06 ◼   ► I should get the not discrete GPU MacBook Pro because there's really no need for me to have a discrete GPU MacBook Pro

00:18:13 ◼   ► I said to our IT guy, listen, I think what I want is the not discrete one

00:18:17 ◼   ► But I want the terabyte hard drive if I can get it I want

00:18:21 ◼   ► Oh the maxed out processor if I can get it, but don't worry about the the baller baller one

00:18:28 ◼   ► Just get me the the Intel GPU one. That's all I need. So he said okay got it

00:18:33 ◼   ► He comes back three hours later, whatever it was, and says, "Hey, also I gave you the super loaded one because it was only $100 more and I figured you'd like it."

00:18:40 ◼   ► Thanks!

00:18:42 ◼   ► Thanks. Close enough, man.

00:18:44 ◼   ► It was kind of the problem when, like,

00:18:45 ◼   ► people know you're interested in something and wanna, like, if someone's like, "Marco likes coffee, right?

00:18:51 ◼   ► I should buy him some coffee."

00:18:52 ◼   ► But you don't know anything about coffee and you're gonna buy Marco coffee, right? The odds of that, like, maybe Marco would appreciate the thought, but it's like,

00:19:01 ◼   ► Especially if more and you're in the situation like it's their job to buy you a computer and you have preferences and you communicate them

00:19:07 ◼   ► But you just know if you're not there during the purchase

00:19:09 ◼   ► It's like they're gonna do something that they think is the nice thing to do

00:19:12 ◼   ► It's like if I could just if let me just tell you exactly what to get just get this

00:19:15 ◼   ► I know exactly what I want just get this. Yep

00:19:17 ◼   ► Yeah, and that's what I tried but they feel like they want to do something even better

00:19:21 ◼   ► Like give me the give me the credit card. I will order it

00:19:23 ◼   ► That's even better if you can get them to do that

00:19:26 ◼   ► Well in his defense, you know, not only was he trying to do the right thing

00:19:31 ◼   ► and get me even more than what I asked for.

00:19:35 ◼   ► And not only that, but I'm pretty sure part of what

00:19:37 ◼   ► influenced him was that he could have this computer today.

00:19:40 ◼   ► And if I had gotten the not discreet GPU one,

00:19:44 ◼   ► it wasn't, you know, that's not carried

00:19:45 ◼   ► in any normal Apple store.

00:19:47 ◼   ► - Well, the base model is, but not with the terabyte

00:19:49 ◼   ► and the upgraded CPU, so yeah.

00:19:51 ◼   ► - Exactly, so here again, like I'm not mad about it.

00:19:54 ◼   ► I'm actually really excited to have a new computer

00:19:55 ◼   ► 'cause again, as much as I do love my high res anti-glare

00:19:59 ◼   ► 15-inch MacBook Pros. They're both getting pretty long in the tooth now. But I bring

00:20:04 ◼   ► all this up, actually, because I wanted to share what it's like to have a retina Mac

00:20:09 ◼   ► for the first time in 2015. Because all of you have lived this before, but I haven't,

00:20:14 ◼   ► so I want my moment in the sun, dammit.

00:20:16 ◼   ► You mean all of you. I don't have any retina Macs.

00:20:18 ◼   ► Well, you believe in ancient cheese graters, so you don't even count.

00:20:21 ◼   ► How am I the only one of the, of like three alleged Apple experts, how have I been the

00:20:27 ◼   ► the only one who's had a retina Mac since 2012.

00:20:30 ◼   ► - But you're also the only one who loves to buy

00:20:31 ◼   ► expensive things and then sell them and buy

00:20:33 ◼   ► different expensive things, whereas Casey and I

00:20:34 ◼   ► are much more cautious.

00:20:36 ◼   ► - Well, it's more that, John, you just don't own laptops,

00:20:39 ◼   ► generally speaking.

00:20:40 ◼   ► - I have two of them sitting in the room with me right now.

00:20:42 ◼   ► - Yeah, but they're not yours.

00:20:43 ◼   ► You know, I think if you were the kind of person

00:20:46 ◼   ► who bought a laptop for yourself, I think you would've

00:20:49 ◼   ► had one sometime in the last three years.

00:20:51 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's definitely true.

00:20:53 ◼   ► If I was a laptop person, I would've had a retina

00:20:54 ◼   ► one long time ago.

00:20:56 ◼   ► See, and I am a laptop person, but just like John said, I try to be frugal whenever possible.

00:21:04 ◼   ► I usually fail, but I try.

00:21:06 ◼   ► And so one way or another, this is my first retina Mac.

00:21:09 ◼   ► And I'm going to try to make this fairly quick.

00:21:12 ◼   ► Retina screens are beautiful.

00:21:13 ◼   ► A retina display delivers the very best viewing experience.

00:21:18 ◼   ► That's the first thing I noticed.

00:21:19 ◼   ► Second thing I noticed is, oh my God, everything is huge.

00:21:22 ◼   ► I'm used to this high-res anti-glare MacBook Pro whose resolution I don't even remember

00:21:27 ◼   ► offhand.

00:21:28 ◼   ► 1680?

00:21:29 ◼   ► Sure, that sounds about right.

00:21:31 ◼   ► It is.

00:21:32 ◼   ► Whereas this 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro is considerably less than that effective resolution.

00:21:37 ◼   ► 1440?

00:21:38 ◼   ► Is it 1440?

00:21:39 ◼   ► Yeah, but you can change it.

00:21:40 ◼   ► There's a setting.

00:21:41 ◼   ► Oh, the scaled mode.

00:21:43 ◼   ► Yeah, right.

00:21:44 ◼   ► But native is 1440.

00:21:45 ◼   ► I always keep forgetting that.

00:21:46 ◼   ► The native 2X is 1440.

00:21:47 ◼   ► That is tight.

00:21:48 ◼   ► Yeah, it is huge.

00:21:50 ◼   ► is huge by comparison, which is a little bit weird. I haven't yet changed the scaling.

00:21:55 ◼   ► I suspect I'm going to. It's only a matter of time.

00:21:58 ◼   ► Yeah, just change it. It's no big deal. Just change the name.

00:22:01 ◼   ► Where do I know that from? I don't even know.

00:22:03 ◼   ► You're not even getting Apple references anymore. Come on.

00:22:06 ◼   ► Sorry. Although, to be fair, I don't remember what

00:22:08 ◼   ► he was talking about. Which app it was?

00:22:11 ◼   ► Yeah, I don't remember the app. I just remember that. It was a JAWS email. Just change the

00:22:15 ◼   ► name. Not that big of a deal. Oh, that does ring a bell. Oh, well. That

00:22:19 ◼   ► That was the first thing I noticed after how beautiful it was, was "Oh my god, I cannot

00:22:23 ◼   ► put anything on the screen, everything is enormous."

00:22:25 ◼   ► Yes, I'm aware of scaling, I just haven't tried it yet.

00:22:28 ◼   ► I wanted to live with it as it was for a little while first.

00:22:30 ◼   ► The third thing I noticed was, you know, I'm trying furiously to prep this thing for work

00:22:37 ◼   ► tomorrow, and I'm installing VMware Fusion, which is the particular VM software that I

00:22:42 ◼   ► use just because that's what I bought forever ago, and I haven't ever switched to Parallel

00:22:48 ◼   ► since. Fusion's way better, please don't email us. Fair enough. I was installing VMware Fusion

00:22:53 ◼   ► and the first screen that comes up after whatever generic like OS X screens pop up for the installation,

00:23:01 ◼   ► first real VMware Fusion screen comes up and oh my sweet holy, it is ugly. Everything is

00:23:08 ◼   ► blurry. What has happened? And I've never had this experience before and so ignorance

00:23:14 ◼   ► was kind of bliss in the past, because everything was blurry, you could argue. But now it sticks

00:23:19 ◼   ► out like a sore thumb, and I can already tell this is going to get annoying really quickly.

00:23:22 ◼   ► Now, to be fair, that's the only screen I've noticed in using this machine in the last

00:23:27 ◼   ► couple of hours that was like that, but oh my god, it's so blurry. What happened?

00:23:32 ◼   ► Yeah, it was way worse back in 2012. Like, for anybody who bought some of the first generation

00:23:37 ◼   ► of Retina MacBook Pro, like, it was way worse back then because web pages were all just

00:23:41 ◼   ► look terrible. Like, you know, software updated itself pretty quickly, but it took the web

00:23:45 ◼   ► a long time to really get into having high DPI versions of anything. And websites on

00:23:51 ◼   ► retina still, like you'll occasionally run into one now that's not retina, but they're

00:23:55 ◼   ► much fewer and further between than they were in 2012. But, you know, to be fair, VMware

00:24:01 ◼   ► has had three years, and more if they were, you know, once the iPhone 4 came out in 2010

00:24:08 ◼   ► with its retina screen.

00:24:09 ◼   ► You know, any observer would have been like,

00:24:11 ◼   ► "You know, this is probably gonna expand

00:24:13 ◼   ► "for the rest of the lineup.

00:24:14 ◼   ► "We should probably get ready for this."

00:24:16 ◼   ► Then when the retina iPad came out a year later,

00:24:19 ◼   ► "Hmm, you know what?

00:24:20 ◼   ► "We should probably get ready for this."

00:24:22 ◼   ► (laughs)

00:24:23 ◼   ► That was 2011 then, and it's like, okay.

00:24:26 ◼   ► Anybody who is still not retina ready now,

00:24:28 ◼   ► that's their fault, really.

00:24:30 ◼   ► This is beyond reasonable.

00:24:31 ◼   ► - VMware doesn't really have much of a UI,

00:24:34 ◼   ► so maybe they just don't have,

00:24:35 ◼   ► don't dedicate the resources and have the department

00:24:37 ◼   ► is responsible for updating the graphics,

00:24:39 ◼   ► 'cause really, you're mostly not looking at VMware

00:24:42 ◼   ► as you are, you're mostly looking at whatever

00:24:43 ◼   ► virtual machine you're using inside the thing, you know?

00:24:47 ◼   ► - Right, and to be fair, this was an installation screen,

00:24:49 ◼   ► and I haven't gotten to the point

00:24:52 ◼   ► that I've put a VM on the machine yet,

00:24:53 ◼   ► but I believe that all of the honest-to-goodness

00:24:56 ◼   ► VMware screens will be retinified,

00:24:59 ◼   ► or whatever you wanna call it, high-res.

00:25:01 ◼   ► - While you're complaining about VMware, by the way,

00:25:02 ◼   ► I have a pet VMware bug that has been with me since 7.0.

00:25:06 ◼   ► I figure what they're up to now,

00:25:07 ◼   ► they're seven point something, point something, whatever.

00:25:10 ◼   ► When seven came out, I had this bug where you'd launch VMware

00:25:13 ◼   ► and it shows me that little screen that shows you

00:25:14 ◼   ► like the virtual machine library

00:25:16 ◼   ► with like the little screenshots of everything.

00:25:18 ◼   ► And if I launch it, that thing comes up

00:25:21 ◼   ► and I quickly double click the VM I wanna launch,

00:25:24 ◼   ► it crashes, right?

00:25:26 ◼   ► If you let it launch,

00:25:27 ◼   ► you let that screen with the little library come up

00:25:29 ◼   ► and you just wait a couple seconds.

00:25:30 ◼   ► It's one of those old school bugs,

00:25:32 ◼   ► like classic Mac OS, cooperative multitasking,

00:25:34 ◼   ► memory corruption, just wait, just let it,

00:25:36 ◼   ► Don't touch anything, just let it sit there.

00:25:39 ◼   ► And then go over and double click, it's fine.

00:25:41 ◼   ► And it's been a repeatable bug through multiple miner,

00:25:44 ◼   ► and I think they even did like a major,

00:25:45 ◼   ► I left a seven point line, I forget, multiple revisions.

00:25:48 ◼   ► Every time it says send a crash report, I do,

00:25:50 ◼   ► I think they're just going to Apple VMware,

00:25:51 ◼   ► probably never sees them, but boy,

00:25:52 ◼   ► I love those kind of bugs where it's like,

00:25:54 ◼   ► just don't touch it, just be careful, just wait,

00:25:56 ◼   ► just wait, wait, okay, now it's good.

00:25:58 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:25:59 ◼   ► What the hell could that possibly be?

00:26:00 ◼   ► I have no idea, anyway.

00:26:02 ◼   ► - So that's basically all I have to say

00:26:04 ◼   ► the computers so far. It does seem very nice. The fans did kick on once or twice as I was

00:26:09 ◼   ► doing an installation or two, and by comparison they were super quiet. I don't know if that

00:26:14 ◼   ► means that they're quieter in general now. I don't know if they're—

00:26:16 ◼   ► Asymmetrical.

00:26:17 ◼   ► Air is pulled into vents and propelled through sculpted cavities by fans with asymmetrically

00:26:24 ◼   ► positioned blades. In most fans, the blades are positioned symmetrically, which creates

00:26:31 ◼   ► a single identifiable frequency. We positioned ours asymmetrically to spread the sound over

00:26:38 ◼   ► a variety of frequencies, which makes it seem quieter and less intrusive. Every part of

00:26:44 ◼   ► the enclosure makes a contribution that directly benefits the user.

00:26:50 ◼   ► Right, and so that's the thing is I've never experienced this for myself. So that was very

00:26:54 ◼   ► exciting. It doesn't sound like a jet engine/hair dryer anymore, which I was very happy about.

00:26:59 ◼   ► So that's all I have to say so far about like software and whatnot.

00:27:02 ◼   ► I will note, however, that this has a Force Touch trackpad.

00:27:06 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:27:07 ◼   ► Marco's favorite thing.

00:27:08 ◼   ► Yeah, so you got four times the pixels and infinitely fewer buttons.

00:27:11 ◼   ► Right.

00:27:12 ◼   ► Still just one fewer, by the way.

00:27:14 ◼   ► [laughs]

00:27:14 ◼   ► Wow.

00:27:16 ◼   ► Anyway, when you first get a brand new Mac with the Force Touch trackpad,

00:27:21 ◼   ► it is the worst trackpad in the entire world.

00:27:25 ◼   ► However, there is a magical switch one can flip.

00:27:28 ◼   ► Wait, hang on, before you talk about the magical switch, what's making you say that when you first get it, it's like the worst ever?

00:27:34 ◼   ► Like, what about it? It comes out of the box, you're not touching anything, you start using it, what repels you?

00:27:38 ◼   ► It's that there's a click, but it's almost, it almost feels like, I don't know, like a fingernail got under the trackpad.

00:27:46 ◼   ► So like, it clicks, but it doesn't feel right. It's almost mushy.

00:27:51 ◼   ► It's almost like a thud.

00:27:52 ◼   ► Yeah, I guess. I don't know, it just, it doesn't have the depth that you expect.

00:27:57 ◼   ► Yes, I understand there is no depth.

00:27:59 ◼   ► It's all an illusion.

00:28:00 ◼   ► I'm just saying, you know,

00:28:01 ◼   ► if you don't really think about that fact

00:28:03 ◼   ► and you're just clicking around,

00:28:05 ◼   ► you're expecting more depth than it has.

00:28:06 ◼   ► It feels like something's broken.

00:28:08 ◼   ► - So you're saying like a finger note,

00:28:10 ◼   ► I call it like a traditional button,

00:28:12 ◼   ► but rather than going all the way down,

00:28:13 ◼   ► it feels like it goes to about like half travel?

00:28:16 ◼   ► - Perfect description.

00:28:17 ◼   ► That's why we keep you around.

00:28:18 ◼   ► That's exactly right.

00:28:19 ◼   ► So I hated it.

00:28:21 ◼   ► I hated immediately.

00:28:22 ◼   ► I had a feeling I was going to be able to get over it,

00:28:25 ◼   ► but I hated it.

00:28:27 ◼   ► But I thought to myself, "Self, why don't you take a look in System Preferences?"

00:28:31 ◼   ► And so I took a look in System Preferences, and sure enough, there is a completely unlabeled,

00:28:37 ◼   ► or two completely unlabeled sliders.

00:28:38 ◼   ► Well, I shouldn't say completely unlabeled.

00:28:41 ◼   ► They're labeled "Click" and "Tracking Speed."

00:28:44 ◼   ► Click did not mean anything to me.

00:28:47 ◼   ► But there's Light, Medium, and Firm as the three options.

00:28:49 ◼   ► And I realized after thinking about it for a second, I was like, "What the hell is--oh!

00:28:54 ◼   ► Right."

00:28:56 ◼   ► When I switched from medium, which was the default, to firm, angels came down from the

00:29:02 ◼   ► heavens and everything was right in the world.

00:29:05 ◼   ► The pressure you apply activates an electromagnet that responds with tactile feedback.

00:29:12 ◼   ► So now instead of just seeing what's happening on the screen, you feel it too.

00:29:22 ◼   ► And I have no problem with this trackpad anymore.

00:29:23 ◼   ► You have no problem with it?

00:29:25 ◼   ► Do you feel like it better?

00:29:27 ◼   ► Is it just like, well, it's acceptable, it's the same as the other one?

00:29:30 ◼   ► You got them right next to each other, you can go back and forth and click, click, click,

00:29:33 ◼   ► click.

00:29:34 ◼   ► So yeah, I'm doing this mostly to get a rise out of Marco.

00:29:37 ◼   ► I wouldn't say I don't have a problem with it.

00:29:40 ◼   ► I wouldn't say I like it more.

00:29:41 ◼   ► I would say I like it marginally less.

00:29:45 ◼   ► It doesn't feel as crisp as it used to.

00:29:47 ◼   ► And there have been occasions when, I think because there is no physical depth to it,

00:29:55 ◼   ► it's misconstrued when I'm dragging or clicking and holding and when I'm not.

00:30:03 ◼   ► It's hard to describe, and I haven't really put my finger on how to like reproduce it,

00:30:06 ◼   ► but there have been occasions where I've thought I've released a click, but my thumb is still

00:30:11 ◼   ► physically resting on the bottom of the trackpad, and the software seems to think that I'm

00:30:17 ◼   ► still holding down on the button.

00:30:19 ◼   ► Have you done the thing that some people have talked about, like with the physical button,

00:30:23 ◼   ► because it was hinged on an edge, we all kept using the thumb, because the thumb is usually

00:30:28 ◼   ► near the bottom, and the bottom part is the easiest place to click.

00:30:30 ◼   ► But when no part of it moves, they're all equally valid, so you can stop using the thumb,

00:30:34 ◼   ► sort of the theory goes, and use whatever finger you're using to control the cursor

00:30:39 ◼   ► is also the finger that you use to click.

00:30:41 ◼   ► And no matter where you do it,

00:30:41 ◼   ► it's the same exact amount of effort required.

00:30:43 ◼   ► Have you tried that?

00:30:44 ◼   ► Is that even a thing?

00:30:45 ◼   ► - My brain understands everything you just said.

00:30:48 ◼   ► My hands are already writhing in revolts for that idea.

00:30:52 ◼   ► - But it should be easier

00:30:53 ◼   ► because it's not coordinating like you're not cording.

00:30:55 ◼   ► You're not trying to like,

00:30:56 ◼   ► "Oh, I press my thumb over here,

00:30:58 ◼   ► but then let me drag my pointer finger over there."

00:31:00 ◼   ► It's all just one thing.

00:31:01 ◼   ► - No, I totally understand what you're saying.

00:31:03 ◼   ► And all snark aside,

00:31:05 ◼   ► I think it would be really hard to train myself

00:31:07 ◼   ► not to use my thumb.

00:31:08 ◼   ► a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I mean, I'm sure I could. It's just, it would be hard

00:31:13 ◼   ► for me to train myself to do that. So I just think like it's one of those things that is

00:31:16 ◼   ► made possible by the forest trust trackpad. And of course, it's not what we're all used

00:31:20 ◼   ► to. But like maybe someone who this is their first laptop ever, like a kid, like just accept

00:31:25 ◼   ► they their habits are built on that. And they would find a barbaric to have to press down

00:31:29 ◼   ► with your thumb on this particular edge of the thing while moving your finger over there.

00:31:32 ◼   ► I don't know. I haven't tried either. I hate trackpads overall, in general. I'm just why

00:31:35 ◼   ► I've heard that from other people.

00:31:36 ◼   ► I'm just wondering if you should give that a try.

00:31:39 ◼   ► Like give it a good chance to be like,

00:31:41 ◼   ► maybe this is better.

00:31:42 ◼   ► Although I think you're about to talk about something else

00:31:44 ◼   ► that is even more potentially blasphemous

00:31:46 ◼   ► about your trackpad habits.

00:31:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:31:49 ◼   ► - Before we get there, let me just rebut slightly.

00:31:52 ◼   ► What drives me nuts about the Force Talk's trackpad

00:31:54 ◼   ► is not that I hate it.

00:31:55 ◼   ► I don't hate it.

00:31:57 ◼   ► And I know that the next time I buy a laptop,

00:32:00 ◼   ► it's almost certainly gonna have one

00:32:01 ◼   ► and I'll just have to deal with it.

00:32:02 ◼   ► And that'll be fine.

00:32:03 ◼   ► It's not gonna stop me from buying a new laptop forever.

00:32:06 ◼   ► I'm not gonna hold onto the old version forever

00:32:08 ◼   ► because I don't like this trackpad.

00:32:10 ◼   ► I don't hate it that much.

00:32:12 ◼   ► - It's not your Apple extended keyboard too.

00:32:14 ◼   ► - Right?

00:32:15 ◼   ► But what I find unfortunate about it is that

00:32:19 ◼   ► what you're saying is you're basically

00:32:21 ◼   ► in apology mode for it.

00:32:23 ◼   ► It's like, "Well, this is almost good,"

00:32:25 ◼   ► or "This is great except for this unreliable thing,"

00:32:28 ◼   ► and the click is almost as good as the old one.

00:32:30 ◼   ► you know, it's all these apologetic excusing statements

00:32:34 ◼   ► about it because it really isn't as good.

00:32:37 ◼   ► And what bothers me about this trackpad is that

00:32:44 ◼   ► we had a great trackpad before

00:32:46 ◼   ► that very few people had problems with.

00:32:49 ◼   ► You know, yes, you could only click firmly on the bottom

00:32:51 ◼   ► 'cause it was hinged at the top,

00:32:52 ◼   ► but buttons used to be at the bottom.

00:32:54 ◼   ► On many PC laptops, they still are that way.

00:32:57 ◼   ► That's why it was hinged that way.

00:32:58 ◼   ► That's why we used our thumb on the bottom,

00:32:59 ◼   ► and everyone's been fine with that, it's been fine.

00:33:02 ◼   ► More importantly, it was rock solid reliable.

00:33:04 ◼   ► I don't think I've ever mis-clicked on a track pad

00:33:08 ◼   ► that had tap to click disabled.

00:33:10 ◼   ► To go make something, to take something like the track pad

00:33:13 ◼   ► that is such a fundamental thing and to make it even,

00:33:16 ◼   ► even 5% or 1% less reliable,

00:33:20 ◼   ► you know, it's like if every 50th tap to the space bar

00:33:24 ◼   ► just didn't work or inserted an X instead, you know?

00:33:28 ◼   ► making fundamental input methods slightly less reliable

00:33:32 ◼   ► than 100% is, I think, a really big annoyance.

00:33:36 ◼   ► - I think everyone should use mice, but besides the point.

00:33:39 ◼   ► - The fact is, if you're really good with a trackpad

00:33:41 ◼   ► and you don't have tap to click enabled,

00:33:42 ◼   ► it's very reliable.

00:33:44 ◼   ► Like, you very rarely have, like,

00:33:46 ◼   ► unintended results from it, or missed clicks,

00:33:49 ◼   ► or missed gestures, it's very reliable.

00:33:52 ◼   ► With Force Touch, yes, they did something

00:33:55 ◼   ► that's really cool, technically,

00:33:56 ◼   ► But on this fundamental level of reliability,

00:34:00 ◼   ► even if you can get over the feel issue,

00:34:02 ◼   ► which I honestly, I still don't think it's as good,

00:34:04 ◼   ► even on the firm setting.

00:34:06 ◼   ► I've heard that El Capitan makes it better in software.

00:34:10 ◼   ► I have not been able to verify that yet,

00:34:11 ◼   ► but I heard that's better, I don't know.

00:34:14 ◼   ► But even with the click feel aside for now,

00:34:18 ◼   ► which I don't think is a small thing,

00:34:20 ◼   ► but put that aside for now.

00:34:22 ◼   ► The fact that it got even a little bit less reliable,

00:34:25 ◼   ► the fact that it is occasionally misinterpreting

00:34:27 ◼   ► what people want, and you aren't the first person

00:34:29 ◼   ► to say that, Casey.

00:34:30 ◼   ► I had that problem when I owned one for two days.

00:34:33 ◼   ► I've heard many people who still have the same problem

00:34:36 ◼   ► with it where it is a little bit less reliable,

00:34:38 ◼   ► it is like you will occasionally have a mis-drag

00:34:41 ◼   ► or a mis-click or something.

00:34:43 ◼   ► That, to me, is unacceptable.

00:34:46 ◼   ► Why make it worse?

00:34:48 ◼   ► 'Cause that is, it's making it worse.

00:34:50 ◼   ► Why take something that is so good--

00:34:52 ◼   ► - I don't know if it is making it,

00:34:53 ◼   ► That's what I was getting at with asking about the habits.

00:34:55 ◼   ► I don't know if it's really making it worse.

00:34:57 ◼   ► It's making it worse for you and for people whose habits are trained on the old one, because

00:35:02 ◼   ► you will find your fingers doing things and acting in ways that were appropriate for the

00:35:05 ◼   ► old device that are not appropriate for the new one.

00:35:07 ◼   ► But I'm not entirely sure that if, you know, like, ignore all of us and say, "This is the

00:35:12 ◼   ► first time anyone ever used a trackpad.

00:35:13 ◼   ► This is their first computer.

00:35:14 ◼   ► They're 10 years old.

00:35:15 ◼   ► They start on this thing."

00:35:17 ◼   ► Is it worse for them?

00:35:19 ◼   ► That's one aspect of it.

00:35:20 ◼   ► The other aspect that you talk about reliability of, like, "I don't want it missing clicks"

00:35:23 ◼   ► and stuff like that.

00:35:24 ◼   ► That may be tied to our habits, but the other aspect of this, think of the iPod click wheel,

00:35:29 ◼   ► remember that thing, the spinning wheel?

00:35:31 ◼   ► Apple quickly got rid of the ring that actually turns and changed it into a ring that does

00:35:36 ◼   ► not turn but that you just slide your finger around this channel.

00:35:40 ◼   ► And people didn't like that either because it was like, well yeah, maybe it was bad because

00:35:43 ◼   ► that ring popped off all the time on the old one.

00:35:45 ◼   ► But I like the fact that it actually moved, now I'm swiping my sweaty finger across plastic

00:35:49 ◼   ► that does not move.

00:35:50 ◼   ► How is that better?

00:35:51 ◼   ► you know, it's just a reduction in moving parts.

00:35:54 ◼   ► Apple loves to reduce moving parts.

00:35:55 ◼   ► This is a reduction in moving parts, kind of, sort of,

00:35:58 ◼   ► mostly.

00:35:59 ◼   ► - Is it?

00:35:59 ◼   ► - It is, I mean, it is because it's like the four sensors,

00:36:01 ◼   ► there's not a crack that opens up,

00:36:03 ◼   ► that like Casey said, fingernails can get into,

00:36:05 ◼   ► food crumbs can get into, that, you know,

00:36:08 ◼   ► setting aside the whole depth and battery thing,

00:36:09 ◼   ► which is, you know, is a big motivator for this,

00:36:11 ◼   ► like it is one fewer moving part and it is more uniform.

00:36:15 ◼   ► It is, like I said, the whole surface is equally tappable.

00:36:18 ◼   ► Maybe it'll take a couple versions to figure out the feel

00:36:21 ◼   ► and stuff like that and the reliability,

00:36:24 ◼   ► I don't know 'cause I don't have one of these.

00:36:25 ◼   ► I don't know if that's just because

00:36:26 ◼   ► your fingers are used to it.

00:36:27 ◼   ► I know that coming from a mouse,

00:36:29 ◼   ► trying to use any kind of trackpad,

00:36:30 ◼   ► I felt like I was just completely unable to,

00:36:35 ◼   ► like I felt like there was a huge barrier

00:36:37 ◼   ► between me and the cursor all of a sudden

00:36:38 ◼   ► because I grew up with a mouse and not a trackpad.

00:36:40 ◼   ► It took me a long time to even become

00:36:41 ◼   ► vaguely competent with a trackpad.

00:36:43 ◼   ► And even now, if I have to click and hold

00:36:44 ◼   ► and drag something with a trackpad,

00:36:46 ◼   ► like with a traditional one,

00:36:47 ◼   ► I have them with actual physical buttons sitting behind me.

00:36:49 ◼   ► I use that one a lot with the regular button all of them. I feel like are terrible and

00:36:53 ◼   ► The force touch trackpad I agree with you that doesn't feel as good to me

00:36:56 ◼   ► But I feel like I'm more reliable clicking and dragging again. I haven't used one for a long period of time

00:37:01 ◼   ► but anyway, I'm I'm willing to believe that

00:37:03 ◼   ► Even though you dislike this thing strongly and it is worse for you. No, no, that's not what I said

00:37:08 ◼   ► I don't dislike it strongly. I just think it's worse

00:37:11 ◼   ► I know even though you even though you think it's worse

00:37:14 ◼   ► I would say it's definitely worse for you so far even though you didn't have a very long time either

00:37:19 ◼   ► But I'm willing to believe that it is going to be better for people who aren't used to the old way

00:37:23 ◼   ► And I'm even willing to believe that could actually be better for you

00:37:25 ◼   ► Three or four years from now when the mechanical ones are totally gone

00:37:28 ◼   ► And you just kind of get used to it so but a mark on your calendar for three years to get from now

00:37:32 ◼   ► And I'll ask you how you're feeling about forced track pads now, okay?

00:37:35 ◼   ► You know but anyway

00:37:36 ◼   ► I like I get Apple is forward-looking and they're saying the same thing with like who's gonna use these track pads

00:37:42 ◼   ► I mean you guys don't remember this

00:37:44 ◼   ► But you used to have track balls down there with a button above and below the trackball and use the trackball either with your thumb

00:37:49 ◼   ► And then with the other thumb on the top button or you use the track trackball with your finger with your thumb on the bottom

00:37:55 ◼   ► button

00:37:56 ◼   ► Some people will use the trackball some people like them and they replaced it with you know code name Midas the touchpad thing people

00:38:02 ◼   ► Like whoa what the hell happened to the trackball? This is worse. I was much better at controlling things

00:38:06 ◼   ► I never had any mistaps or swipes or whatever the ball was easy to control

00:38:10 ◼   ► I could feel it moving back and forth

00:38:12 ◼   ► Eventually, we just all get used to it and no one is like, "This trackpad sucks, I wish

00:38:14 ◼   ► I had a trackball."

00:38:15 ◼   ► Right?

00:38:16 ◼   ► So I feel like this is one of those type of moves where it has the inevitability of fewer

00:38:20 ◼   ► moving parts that is very in line with what Apple does and what technology moves to in

00:38:25 ◼   ► general just because it allows you to make things thinner and lighter and there's fewer

00:38:29 ◼   ► things that slide back and forth against each other.

00:38:32 ◼   ► And I think it may be perfectly acceptable and possibly even better depending on the

00:38:35 ◼   ► habits for new people.

00:38:37 ◼   ► So I still say the jury's out on this thing.

00:38:40 ◼   ► We're going to hear from all the trackball users, by the way.

00:38:42 ◼   ► Yeah, we are.

00:38:43 ◼   ► No one remembers the trackballs in PowerBooks.

00:38:45 ◼   ► Some people still use them.

00:38:46 ◼   ► Like the big external desktop ones, they still make them.

00:38:49 ◼   ► Oh yeah, no, that's the people who don't understand how a mouse works.

00:38:52 ◼   ► I know the people.

00:38:53 ◼   ► It's like you turn it over, the ball goes facing down, guys.

00:38:56 ◼   ► No one remembers mice with balls in them either, I guess.

00:39:00 ◼   ► Oh my god.

00:39:01 ◼   ► I was an expert cleaning mouse balls, let me tell you.

00:39:03 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, me too.

00:39:04 ◼   ► We get tweezers, peel off the big like, string.

00:39:07 ◼   ► Yeah, it's awesome.

00:39:08 ◼   ► Get it off in one piece.

00:39:09 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:39:10 ◼   ► if you're lucky you come off of one piece.

00:39:12 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:39:13 ◼   ► - You wouldn't have to scrape it.

00:39:13 ◼   ► Ew, it's so gross.

00:39:15 ◼   ► - Oh my God, this is so amazing.

00:39:17 ◼   ► So yeah, so in case you thought we weren't going

00:39:20 ◼   ► to get enough email, let me make it better.

00:39:23 ◼   ► Trackpads are barbaric.

00:39:24 ◼   ► The only one true mobile pointing device

00:39:27 ◼   ► is the trackpoint, period.

00:39:29 ◼   ► That is the deal.

00:39:30 ◼   ► - You know, I kinda wish we still had trackpoints

00:39:33 ◼   ► like in Apple products because I think I agree with you

00:39:37 ◼   ► because I had I had think pads from ebay back forever ago

00:39:41 ◼   ► before I could get myself like a new laptop. I would get like

00:39:45 ◼   ► old terrible thing pads on ebay every couple of years for like

00:39:49 ◼   ► three hundred dollars. So I had I had track points here and

00:39:53 ◼   ► there briefly in my in my younger years and I like them a lot.

00:39:58 ◼   ► I really really like them a lot, but I wonder if you know if

00:40:03 ◼   ► you know the same way like I thought the sake of Saturn had

00:40:05 ◼   ► had awesome graphics when it came out.

00:40:08 ◼   ► And then I saw it 10 years later

00:40:10 ◼   ► and did not think that anymore.

00:40:12 ◼   ► I wonder, do track points still hold up today?

00:40:16 ◼   ► - Yep, they never held up.

00:40:18 ◼   ► It's like flying the spaceship cursor pointer

00:40:21 ◼   ► with a joystick.

00:40:22 ◼   ► That's what you're doing with the track pad.

00:40:24 ◼   ► You are basically riding on top of the cursor,

00:40:26 ◼   ► which is a spaceship that you are controlling

00:40:28 ◼   ► on the screen with a joystick.

00:40:30 ◼   ► It is not direct manipulation.

00:40:32 ◼   ► Track pads are better than little track points.

00:40:34 ◼   ► I know people like them and they have one advantage which is it allows you to keep your fingers on the keyboard

00:40:38 ◼   ► You just got to move your finger over between the F and the G or ever the hell the thing was in the keyboards and use

00:40:43 ◼   ► It over there and ignore the fact that it's cutting into your key caps a little

00:40:46 ◼   ► And it's good you keep everything in the same place. Like that's that's it's one advantage

00:40:51 ◼   ► Everything else about it sucks like as in how quickly can you move the poor cursor towards something that you want are interested in? Oh

00:40:57 ◼   ► No good

00:41:00 ◼   ► So the thing about it is, if I'm really honest with myself, most of this is nostalgia.

00:41:06 ◼   ► And if you don't know what I'm talking about, the track point on a ThinkPad was almost always

00:41:10 ◼   ► red if not always red.

00:41:12 ◼   ► They were also oftentimes put on Dells among many other manufacturers.

00:41:15 ◼   ► It's the little nubbin that's in between, I think it's actually the G, H, and B keys.

00:41:19 ◼   ► I don't have one in front of me, but I believe that's right.

00:41:21 ◼   ► And so you would push the little nubbin, it kind of was basically a little joystick, you

00:41:24 ◼   ► push a little nubbin, you know, forward and back and side to side.

00:41:28 ◼   ► And there were mouse buttons immediately below the space bar, and that's where the mouse

00:41:33 ◼   ► buttons were.

00:41:34 ◼   ► And I would fly on that track point, and it was so much more accurate to me than I am

00:41:40 ◼   ► on a track pad, even after having a track pad for the last, what, eight years or something

00:41:44 ◼   ► like that?

00:41:45 ◼   ► Ten years?

00:41:46 ◼   ► I still genuinely prefer a track point.

00:41:50 ◼   ► The one place where a track point just completely falls down is multi-touch, in terms of, like,

00:41:56 ◼   ► swiping.

00:41:57 ◼   ► What do they call it now? Is it Exposé now or is it Mission Control now?

00:42:00 ◼   ► I feel like they're always changing the name.

00:42:01 ◼   ► I've lost track.

00:42:02 ◼   ► Mission Control as of a couple years ago.

00:42:04 ◼   ► Okay, so the Mission Control thing where you can swipe between desktops, I use that constantly.

00:42:11 ◼   ► And not being able to do that, what is it, three finger swipe?

00:42:14 ◼   ► Not being able to do that three finger swipe would absolutely ruin me on a Mac.

00:42:19 ◼   ► But anytime I'm on a desktop, excuse me, anytime I'm on a PC, if it's a PC that has a track

00:42:26 ◼   ► point, that's immediately where I'm reaching. Because I just think it's better, and I am

00:42:33 ◼   ► still more accurate with it, even though I never use one anymore. But to be fair, I think

00:42:37 ◼   ► a lot of that is nostalgia, and it's because it's what I grew up on, because my dad worked

00:42:41 ◼   ► for IBM, and so I was always using old Thinkpads, just like Marco. And so I've always, always,

00:42:47 ◼   ► always used track points up until I started using Macs. So yeah, so I still think the

00:42:52 ◼   ► track point's the way to go, and Jon, you're entitled to your opinion as wrong as it may

00:42:55 ◼   ► Please don't email us these are things you don't have opinions about these things you can test

00:42:59 ◼   ► You can have just you know a series of targets that you have to get and measure time

00:43:03 ◼   ► Accuracy and like you can actually figure this stuff out for an individual person

00:43:07 ◼   ► For people in general if you get enough testers like we don't have to just you know in theory this could be tested

00:43:12 ◼   ► Yeah, you could also test whether vinyl sounds good or not, but when have I ever cared about that also been done

00:43:17 ◼   ► You're right that can't be tested in has been so check all right

00:43:22 ◼   ► By the way, have you ever seen the mouse with the track point in it?

00:43:25 ◼   ► We had them like think of where you think of where your scroll reel is that seems crazy to me

00:43:29 ◼   ► It's like you've got a mouse in your hand

00:43:31 ◼   ► Some sometimes people just like to have something to fiddle with their fingers

00:43:35 ◼   ► Hey, we've at least we've been calling it the nubbin we've been staying away from the various other names for this thing. That's yeah

00:43:43 ◼   ► We're doing well. The other thing I wanted to say is

00:43:47 ◼   ► I

00:43:49 ◼   ► happen to think that track points are terrible, but as

00:43:52 ◼   ► Excuse me, not track points touch pads are terrible

00:43:55 ◼   ► But as touch pads go the Apple touch pads are far and away

00:44:00 ◼   ► Leaps and bounds better than any other touch pad I've ever used and I think oh, yeah

00:44:04 ◼   ► And I think the multi touch has a lot to do with that

00:44:06 ◼   ► But to me the biggest reason that's true is because of the sheer size of the touch pad

00:44:12 ◼   ► Because maybe it's different recently in newer PCs. I haven't used a terribly modern PC in a year or two

00:44:18 ◼   ► But on PCs up until at least a couple of years ago

00:44:22 ◼   ► The track pads were tiny they were postage stamps compared to what you get on an Apple on an Apple device

00:44:29 ◼   ► And that just made it impossible to me

00:44:32 ◼   ► It's like have you ever seen someone to use a mouse on a space that is nowhere near big enough for that mouse

00:44:38 ◼   ► Yeah, they used to sell they would sell like mouse pads. They were like four inches by four inches, right?

00:44:43 ◼   ► Was that even a mouse pad? Yeah, it's just the word

00:44:45 ◼   ► And so all you hear is, the entire time they're using this,

00:44:48 ◼   ► all you hear is, (clicking)

00:44:51 ◼   ► because they're constantly picking up the damn mouse

00:44:53 ◼   ► and putting it back on the table.

00:44:55 ◼   ► It's the worst.

00:44:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, you ever see them use it at a point of sale

00:44:58 ◼   ► and they don't have a place for the mouse?

00:45:00 ◼   ► It's like wedged between the monitor and the little thing,

00:45:02 ◼   ► so they're literally using it with a half a centimeter

00:45:05 ◼   ► of slop, and so like, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump,

00:45:08 ◼   ► thump, thump, thump, thump, thump.

00:45:09 ◼   ► They have to pick it up every three pixels

00:45:10 ◼   ► they move the thing.

00:45:11 ◼   ► Sometimes they're using it upside down.

00:45:13 ◼   ► You ever see those people?

00:45:14 ◼   ► No, that I've not seen.

00:45:15 ◼   ► All right, that was a big thing back in the early days

00:45:17 ◼   ► where people weren't familiar with mice

00:45:19 ◼   ► and they would get one and, you know, whatever.

00:45:21 ◼   ► There's no clear way you're supposed to use it

00:45:23 ◼   ► if you've never used one before.

00:45:24 ◼   ► So they would turn it around

00:45:25 ◼   ► so that the wire is coming out sort of towards them.

00:45:28 ◼   ► And you know, the mouse works fine like that.

00:45:29 ◼   ► It's like inverted y-axis in a video game, right?

00:45:32 ◼   ► And they would press the button,

00:45:33 ◼   ► either the single button or double with their palm,

00:45:35 ◼   ► the left or right side of their palm.

00:45:36 ◼   ► And some people just got used to using a mouse like that.

00:45:39 ◼   ► And that was just it.

00:45:40 ◼   ► That's like, that's the way they're gonna use the mouse

00:45:41 ◼   ► for the rest of their life.

00:45:42 ◼   ► And if someone eventually would come up to them and say,

00:45:43 ◼   ► and say, "No, no, no, it goes around the other way,

00:45:45 ◼   ► "and put your fingers over here."

00:45:46 ◼   ► And they'd be like, "Oh, well I like it the other way."

00:45:48 ◼   ► Like you get used to an inverted Y,

00:45:50 ◼   ► you get used to using the buttons with your palms,

00:45:52 ◼   ► and that's it.

00:45:53 ◼   ► Who's to say that's bad, really?

00:45:54 ◼   ► I mean, you kind of run over the cord a little bit,

00:45:56 ◼   ► but, you know, that's all you get used to.

00:45:58 ◼   ► Some people are left-handed too, can you believe that?

00:46:01 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:46:02 ◼   ► - Now, are you sure those weren't just trackball users

00:46:04 ◼   ► that you were misinterpreting as mouse users?

00:46:06 ◼   ► - No, I've seen this, I've seen this in real life

00:46:08 ◼   ► multiple times, widely separated geographically,

00:46:11 ◼   ► and over periods of time,

00:46:12 ◼   ► who use the mouse upside down.

00:46:14 ◼   ► - I've never seen that.

00:46:15 ◼   ► - Well, I'm with you, Casey.

00:46:16 ◼   ► I would rather use a force touch track pad

00:46:19 ◼   ► on a MacBook One set to the squishiest setting

00:46:24 ◼   ► than use the best PC track pad available.

00:46:27 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah.

00:46:28 ◼   ► - I think it's not just the size, too.

00:46:29 ◼   ► It's also, I don't know if they're not made of glass

00:46:31 ◼   ► 'cause it's too expensive, but they're always made out of,

00:46:33 ◼   ► like, sometimes it's textured plastic

00:46:35 ◼   ► or some other kind of plastic that feels bad

00:46:37 ◼   ► or ends up getting bubbles or wrinkles in it.

00:46:40 ◼   ► It just feels like the cheapest thing you've ever felt in your life.

00:46:44 ◼   ► Apple has traveled the same trajectory.

00:46:45 ◼   ► The original code name Midas Trackpad on the first PowerBook was plasticky and garbagey

00:46:51 ◼   ► and terrible.

00:46:52 ◼   ► That's what Windows trackpads are like now.

00:46:55 ◼   ► Apple slowly progressed making its trackpads, and the Midas trackpad was really tiny.

00:46:59 ◼   ► It was like the size of the two combined mouse buttons on my mouse.

00:47:02 ◼   ► And Apple just kept making them bigger and bigger and bigger and making the button part

00:47:05 ◼   ► smaller and smaller and then removing the button part and making it glass.

00:47:09 ◼   ► PC manufacturers said, "You know what? We can just slap a piece of plastic on here with

00:47:12 ◼   ► some cheap sensor underneath it." That's fine.

00:47:14 ◼   ► Fair enough. The only other thing I wanted to say, because I don't think I've ticked

00:47:19 ◼   ► off enough people yet this evening, I use tap-to-click. And I just wanted to throw it

00:47:25 ◼   ► out there. I don't have a problem with it. I don't see why everyone's so worked up about

00:47:28 ◼   ► it. I don't see what the issue is. I don't typically click by way of tapping, but I can

00:47:35 ◼   ► go either way. I can swing either way, and I'm okay with that.

00:47:38 ◼   ► Are you just using Tap to Click now with a new thing or have you always used it?

00:47:41 ◼   ► No, always.

00:47:42 ◼   ► Well then you have no reason to ever complain about missed clicks or accidental clicks.

00:47:45 ◼   ► Right.

00:47:46 ◼   ► You're just doing this to yourself.

00:47:47 ◼   ► Yeah, you deserve any unreliability in tapping that you get.

00:47:51 ◼   ► I think Tap to Click, I'm not super anti Tap to Click.

00:47:55 ◼   ► Here's what I think about Tap to Click.

00:47:57 ◼   ► If you are a Tap to Click wizard, I think it's better.

00:48:00 ◼   ► I feel like it's the expert mode because you don't have to apply a lot of pressure.

00:48:04 ◼   ► If you have somehow trained yourself to magically dance your fingers across the surface and

00:48:08 ◼   ► you can walk that line between putting your finger down into the thing and tapping to

00:48:14 ◼   ► click, it is more efficient because you don't have to press hard, right?

00:48:18 ◼   ► But I know I can't do it.

00:48:20 ◼   ► I know when I enable it, I get missed clicks all the time.

00:48:22 ◼   ► And I try to do it.

00:48:23 ◼   ► I would like to be a tap to click wizard, but I'm just not, right?

00:48:26 ◼   ► And almost everyone else I've ever seen, they accidentally tap to click too.

00:48:30 ◼   ► And they're just willing to accept the error rate as just the cost of doing business.

00:48:33 ◼   ► I mean my own mother uses it because it's just more comfortable

00:48:36 ◼   ► you don't have to press as hard there is sort of a a luxury and a kind of a

00:48:39 ◼   ► Higher level of user interface like it's one step removed from just waving your hands in front of something a minority report style

00:48:46 ◼   ► Or what the hell is that thing called the track pointy thing remember that I actually use that I?

00:48:51 ◼   ► Attached to my computer was cool the thing where you can like put your hand over this little bar

00:48:55 ◼   ► And you see like these five points for your five fingertips and move them around

00:48:57 ◼   ► What what let me go look at my application follow you guys all remember?

00:49:02 ◼   ► well anyway, I so I actually I one of the reasons why I think I resist tap to

00:49:09 ◼   ► click is because I secretly want to be a tap to click wizard. I would love it if

00:49:14 ◼   ► I was really good at it and really used to it because it does seem like it would

00:49:18 ◼   ► be superior if it was perfect and it's silent and there's lots of times like

00:49:23 ◼   ► I'm using a laptop in bed trying to get some work done before going to sleep or

00:49:25 ◼   ► something like there's lots of times or like even while podcasting. I would love

00:49:30 ◼   ► to get a magic trackpad and be able to tap to click on it comfortably and then have silent

00:49:36 ◼   ► mousing while podcasting. You know, stuff like that. I would love that, but I've tried

00:49:41 ◼   ► it here and there for a couple days at a time and just could never get into it.

00:49:45 ◼   ► And it's not that it's not reliable. It has a threshold. This is a tap and this is not

00:49:49 ◼   ► a tap, right? It's just that you can't walk that line. Very often, you will find your

00:49:53 ◼   ► fingers hitting the pad with enough force to go over that threshold and you didn't mean

00:49:56 ◼   ► to and you don't have control of that threshold really either.

00:50:00 ◼   ► So I think it is as reliable as a button.

00:50:03 ◼   ► It's like if you press with this amount of force, I consider it to click.

00:50:05 ◼   ► If you press anything less than that, I don't.

00:50:06 ◼   ► But you find your fingers hitting the thing and causing taps when you didn't want to.

00:50:11 ◼   ► By the way, the name of the thing was called Leap Motion.

00:50:12 ◼   ► Don't you remember it?

00:50:13 ◼   ► Leap Motion?

00:50:14 ◼   ► I feel like I've heard that name.

00:50:15 ◼   ► Go click the link I just put in the chat room or in the show notes.

00:50:18 ◼   ► You'll remember it.

00:50:19 ◼   ► I had one of them.

00:50:20 ◼   ► I tried it out when the SDK was in like beta or whatever.

00:50:22 ◼   ► It was really neat and cool and fun to use in the demo.

00:50:24 ◼   ► I'm not sure how you could use it to control any piece of software, but it was a cool tech demo

00:50:28 ◼   ► I have never heard of or seen this in my life. You had to have we had it in like the show notes

00:50:33 ◼   ► I think for this show of some point what I mean, it's that's possible

00:50:37 ◼   ► I don't have that good of memory, but I don't think I've ever seen that before could have been a different show

00:50:41 ◼   ► I'm a lot of podcasts anyway

00:50:43 ◼   ► Take a look at the videos

00:50:44 ◼   ► This is a real thing and the demo is like you can get this thing stick it in front of your Mac and do the

00:50:49 ◼   ► Thing they show in the demo and it works like it shows in the demo what I'm just not sure about is like okay

00:50:53 ◼   ► Can I is it useful for me to use to control my mouse pointer?

00:50:58 ◼   ► Probably not is it useful for gaming maybe maybe someone can make a cool game with it

00:51:02 ◼   ► There is a lot of noise and kind of fuzz and the thing and there's a lot of freedom of where you can put your

00:51:07 ◼   ► Limbs in front of it. So there's the potential to be sort of miscalibrated enough, but sure is an interesting piece of technology

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00:54:24 ◼   ► - All right, so Marco, tell us about what you think

00:54:26 ◼   ► is happening with the iPhone 6C.

00:54:29 ◼   ► - Is this that interesting?

00:54:30 ◼   ► So I don't know.

00:54:31 ◼   ► So there's been all the, everyone's speculating that,

00:54:35 ◼   ► you know, that we've had the iPhone 5C,

00:54:36 ◼   ► which was like the redone iPhone 5

00:54:38 ◼   ► with the plastic case and everything.

00:54:41 ◼   ► And, you know, everyone's now saying,

00:54:44 ◼   ► Well, we hope this fall when the new iPhones come out,

00:54:46 ◼   ► there's gonna be a 6C, and everyone's kind of expecting it

00:54:48 ◼   ► as if it's fact, like, oh yeah, there's gonna be a 6C,

00:54:50 ◼   ► they're gonna redo the internals and everything,

00:54:52 ◼   ► and it'll be the 6's guts in a plastic,

00:54:55 ◼   ► four-inch, inexpensive phone.

00:54:57 ◼   ► I said on Twitter earlier this week,

00:55:00 ◼   ► I don't see that happening at all,

00:55:02 ◼   ► because the simple reason is that we always,

00:55:06 ◼   ► for the last many years now, we have seen

00:55:09 ◼   ► pretty solid, healthy events of parts leaks

00:55:13 ◼   ► in the late summer leading up to the fall iPhone releases.

00:55:16 ◼   ► Because the fact is the supply chain for making millions

00:55:21 ◼   ► and millions of iPhones to be bought all at once,

00:55:23 ◼   ► like on day one, this just, like, it is very unrealistic

00:55:27 ◼   ► to expect that they would have a brand new model of iPhone,

00:55:33 ◼   ► even if it isn't the top of the line one,

00:55:35 ◼   ► that they would have a brand new model using a new casing

00:55:37 ◼   ► and new parts, and those parts wouldn't be leaking

00:55:40 ◼   ► at all yet.

00:55:41 ◼   ► It is possible.

00:55:42 ◼   ► I just think it's unlikely.

00:55:44 ◼   ► And so I think if there was going to be a 6C,

00:55:48 ◼   ► there would be some changes to the casing, certainly,

00:55:50 ◼   ► even if it looked kind of the same,

00:55:52 ◼   ► there's always minor variation.

00:55:54 ◼   ► Whenever there's like an S model,

00:55:57 ◼   ► where like the case stays basically the same,

00:55:59 ◼   ► but there's like new guts,

00:56:01 ◼   ► the parts are actually different enough,

00:56:03 ◼   ► even on the casing, those always leak.

00:56:05 ◼   ► And those in fact have leaked already

00:56:06 ◼   ► for what is called in quotes the iPhone 6S,

00:56:10 ◼   ► presumably like the main iPhone 6 update for this fall,

00:56:14 ◼   ► we are, like, there have already been leaked parts for that.

00:56:17 ◼   ► There was a back case, there was a screen.

00:56:19 ◼   ► So we have seen nothing else, though.

00:56:22 ◼   ► We haven't even seen the 6S Plus parts leaked yet.

00:56:25 ◼   ► I assume there will be one,

00:56:26 ◼   ► 'cause it would be weird if there wasn't,

00:56:27 ◼   ► but, you know, so all we've seen so far is the 6S parts.

00:56:31 ◼   ► I would assume, based on that, then,

00:56:33 ◼   ► that we're not gonna see any new,

00:56:35 ◼   ► totally new-looking external cases,

00:56:38 ◼   ► and that we're probably not even gonna see

00:56:39 ◼   ► iPhone 5 or an iPhone 6C. I think the iPhone 5C falls out of the lineup or replaces the

00:56:45 ◼   ► 4S, which is still for sale today in some markets, right? Isn't that like in like some

00:56:48 ◼   ► like India and China markets, isn't that still for sale, the 4S?

00:56:51 ◼   ► I think so. I don't know. I mean, I remember when they were saying they were keeping it,

00:56:55 ◼   ► but only in certain regions, but I don't know how long.

00:56:57 ◼   ► Right. So, I assume, I think it's probably safe to assume that everything basically moves

00:57:01 ◼   ► down a step. So, you have the 5C moving into that spot. In the US and in a lot of like,

00:57:07 ◼   ► you know, rich countries basically,

00:57:09 ◼   ► you have the cheapest phone becoming the 5S,

00:57:13 ◼   ► and then you have the old 6 and 6 Plus maybe,

00:57:16 ◼   ► at least the old 6, maybe the 6 Plus, who knows,

00:57:18 ◼   ► and then the new 6S and 6S Plus.

00:57:21 ◼   ► I think that's the lineup, and I don't think there's,

00:57:24 ◼   ► it doesn't seem like it's that hard to predict.

00:57:26 ◼   ► And you know, maybe there's gonna be a new,

00:57:28 ◼   ► you know, rose gold color people are speculating,

00:57:30 ◼   ► who knows, but I don't think we're gonna see

00:57:31 ◼   ► a new low-end model.

00:57:34 ◼   ► - I think that's a shame though,

00:57:35 ◼   ► because I think the 5C had a lot of really good attributes.

00:57:38 ◼   ► So obviously the guts are now outdated or whatever,

00:57:41 ◼   ► and if you're gonna keep a phone like that in a lineup,

00:57:44 ◼   ► you'd have to change the innards.

00:57:46 ◼   ► But that's what we're talking about,

00:57:47 ◼   ► like the new iPod touch,

00:57:48 ◼   ► like, oh, an A8 in a 5C size case,

00:57:51 ◼   ► like you could make that into a replacement 5C type phone,

00:57:56 ◼   ► which would be the old four inch screen,

00:57:58 ◼   ► the things that has going for it,

00:57:59 ◼   ► for the people that you can ask someone who owns them,

00:58:00 ◼   ► why did you get this?

00:58:02 ◼   ► We all know somebody who is like an iOS developer or an otherwise tech nerd who usually gets

00:58:07 ◼   ► the best fanciest phone but decided to get a 5C.

00:58:10 ◼   ► What's so great about the 5C?

00:58:11 ◼   ► Number one, it comes in colors.

00:58:13 ◼   ► People like colors.

00:58:15 ◼   ► Just people like them.

00:58:16 ◼   ► You want to have a phone with a white back or a yellow back or whatever, these are your

00:58:20 ◼   ► choices or you can just get a case and slap it in the number.

00:58:22 ◼   ► People like things that come in colors.

00:58:24 ◼   ► The iPods, the Taurus, anything.

00:58:25 ◼   ► Number two, it's super comfortable.

00:58:27 ◼   ► Nice curved back like the plastic.

00:58:28 ◼   ► The people who have them and like them say one of the reasons they like it is it feels

00:58:32 ◼   ► Especially compared to the stupid 5 and 5s with the little sharp chamfered edge crap like not as comfortable in your hand

00:58:38 ◼   ► and

00:58:40 ◼   ► Those two things may sound stupid like who cares whatever how comfortable it is

00:58:44 ◼   ► Just a big rectangle of the screen what color it is those things matter especially in product lines, and I think that

00:58:51 ◼   ► You know

00:58:52 ◼   ► Maybe didn't solve their expectations. Maybe they didn't think it was worth it

00:58:55 ◼   ► Maybe it's better to just keep using the tooling from other things. I'm not saying it has to be in the 5c thing

00:59:00 ◼   ► I just think those are things that Apple should bring to its phones and they are kind of like giving you know over time there

00:59:05 ◼   ► Have been more and more variations in all the products even their laptops this point you can get in gold and space gray and stuff

00:59:10 ◼   ► right

00:59:11 ◼   ► Expanding the repertoire of things you can buy and if Apple wants to segment its line

00:59:16 ◼   ► You can know they kind of do like it used to be like aluminum was for the expensive ones and then plastic for the cheaper

00:59:21 ◼   ► ones they went all aluminum and

00:59:23 ◼   ► You could have a more kind of refined line of colors with space gray and gold and black or whatever for the fancy high-end phones

00:59:30 ◼   ► And then as you go middle or lower have them come in 700 different colors, right?

00:59:34 ◼   ► You know have different colors change every year and I think Marco and Twitter you're making fun of little case with the holes and it

00:59:39 ◼   ► Was mixing and matching things like that's silly. They're overpriced people like to do stuff like that

00:59:43 ◼   ► Maybe that particular design was ugly and didn't sell well

00:59:46 ◼   ► but I really really think that

00:59:49 ◼   ► Apple should bring back at some point into its lineup of phones a

00:59:53 ◼   ► Selection of colors and a more comfortable thing to hold

00:59:57 ◼   ► And if it's not going to be this generation then hopefully like whenever they do the big revision for the seven or rather

01:00:01 ◼   ► They're gonna call it

01:00:02 ◼   ► Well, but I mean and first of all I should point out that I'm total hypocrite as I as I'm sitting there saying who the heck

01:00:08 ◼   ► Ever bought multiple holy cases for their iPhone 5c's. I also own three Apple watch bands

01:00:13 ◼   ► But anyway, I'm so angry that I didn't get to point that out and you thought of it

01:00:17 ◼   ► Sorry, but also, you know

01:00:20 ◼   ► If you look at the direction Apple's going with their product designs all of the laptops now are metal

01:00:26 ◼   ► They've been that way for a long time.

01:00:28 ◼   ► They just don't use that as a differentiator anymore.

01:00:30 ◼   ► They use other things.

01:00:31 ◼   ► All the iPads are metal.

01:00:32 ◼   ► Plastic never reached the iPad line.

01:00:35 ◼   ► If you look at the iPhone line,

01:00:38 ◼   ► the iPhone 6 is holdable and comfortable for nobody.

01:00:42 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:00:43 ◼   ► - It's more comfortable than the 5,

01:00:45 ◼   ► other than it slipping out of your hand.

01:00:46 ◼   ► Don't you feel like the edges at least,

01:00:47 ◼   ► the rounded edges are more comfortable?

01:00:49 ◼   ► - Oh yes, they are much more comfortable

01:00:51 ◼   ► for as long as they're in your hand,

01:00:52 ◼   ► and then they fall out.

01:00:53 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know.

01:00:54 ◼   ► I'm just saying, like that's,

01:00:55 ◼   ► I know what you're getting at,

01:00:56 ◼   ► like they're going for all metal,

01:00:57 ◼   ► but I think metal is a poor fit for all of your phones.

01:01:02 ◼   ► It may be a poor fit for any of your phones.

01:01:05 ◼   ► Just look at how they've struggled

01:01:06 ◼   ► with the antenna lines and everything.

01:01:09 ◼   ► - Oh sure, no, but I agree with you.

01:01:11 ◼   ► However, I'm just saying realistically what they're doing,

01:01:14 ◼   ► it sure does seem, and I heard from,

01:01:17 ◼   ► back when I was first complaining

01:01:18 ◼   ► about the iPhone 6 design, which now seems like forever ago,

01:01:21 ◼   ► I heard from a couple of Apple people

01:01:22 ◼   ► who were kind of coyly suggesting,

01:01:25 ◼   ► "Well, what if the rationale wasn't stated?"

01:01:27 ◼   ► They would never actually say this is why we did it,

01:01:29 ◼   ► but the clearly suggested rationale was

01:01:33 ◼   ► basically your naked robotic core theory of like,

01:01:36 ◼   ► we will just make the thinnest, lightest phone,

01:01:40 ◼   ► the smallest, thinnest, lightest thing,

01:01:43 ◼   ► and then you can customize it with cases

01:01:46 ◼   ► to give it either more battery life or a better feel.

01:01:51 ◼   ► And I did, with the iPhone 6,

01:01:54 ◼   ► this is the first phone that I'm constantly using a case on because I'm using Apple's

01:01:58 ◼   ► leather case because I just needed some more friction.

01:02:00 ◼   ► But it is a valid product strategy.

01:02:01 ◼   ► I'm not even saying that's the wrong thing to do because if faced with this option, this

01:02:05 ◼   ► is a great way to go because you're like, do whatever you want with the case.

01:02:09 ◼   ► We'll make a whole bunch of really nice cases.

01:02:11 ◼   ► You can buy a bunch of third party cases when you drop your phone, when you ding it, when

01:02:14 ◼   ► something spills on it, when you scratch it.

01:02:16 ◼   ► Get a new case because all that damage is happening to the case, which if you buy from

01:02:19 ◼   ► Apple is $70 or if it's in leather, suck the plastic.

01:02:22 ◼   ► But let's ignore that for now and just say,

01:02:24 ◼   ► look, this is a good plan.

01:02:26 ◼   ► Naked robotic core is a viable, good strategy.

01:02:29 ◼   ► - Well, see, I disagree with you there.

01:02:31 ◼   ► - All right, so what part of that don't you like?

01:02:34 ◼   ► - The problem is that if you,

01:02:36 ◼   ► let's say you have the naked robotic, you know,

01:02:38 ◼   ► fish phone in the middle there that feels like nothing,

01:02:40 ◼   ► and this is bar soap, okay.

01:02:43 ◼   ► That phone with, let's say you want

01:02:45 ◼   ► a little bit more battery life, so you buy a battery case.

01:02:49 ◼   ► A battery case attached to the phone

01:02:51 ◼   ► is always going to be bigger and worse

01:02:55 ◼   ► than just building that in to begin with.

01:02:57 ◼   ► - I agree with you for the battery.

01:02:58 ◼   ► I'm thinking only for fashion and protection.

01:03:00 ◼   ► Like for what color do you want it in

01:03:02 ◼   ► and do you want something to be grippier

01:03:04 ◼   ► or soak up nicks or whatever battery you write

01:03:07 ◼   ► because you're forced to have two layers there

01:03:10 ◼   ► and then all the stuff.

01:03:11 ◼   ► Although people still do it, right?

01:03:13 ◼   ► And I still think it becomes a viable thing,

01:03:16 ◼   ► but it's inefficient.

01:03:16 ◼   ► I agree with you that basically

01:03:18 ◼   ► that the trade-off that Apple makes

01:03:20 ◼   ► its phone line between thinness and battery life, we talked about this a million times,

01:03:23 ◼   ► there is definitely a place in the lineup for a phone that Apple sells that makes a

01:03:26 ◼   ► different trade-off.

01:03:27 ◼   ► Oh, and by the way, if your most important thing is you need really good battery life,

01:03:30 ◼   ► we sell you one that is way thicker than our other ones, you know, a millimeter or whatever

01:03:34 ◼   ► the hell we think way thicker is these days, that gives you more battery.

01:03:38 ◼   ► And at this point, like the 6 Plus is kind of that model just because it's got the bigger

01:03:42 ◼   ► battery, but Apple just does not offer a phone that's like this.

01:03:45 ◼   ► So they force you to get these big humpback, speaking of humps on things, these big humpback

01:03:48 ◼   ► things that you're right.

01:03:49 ◼   ► to have a layer of plastic of metal, the battery,

01:03:52 ◼   ► another layer of plastic of metal, then a connector thing,

01:03:55 ◼   ► and then it just makes your phone way bigger

01:03:57 ◼   ► than it would be if you built it in.

01:03:58 ◼   ► But for the color and protection stuff,

01:04:00 ◼   ► I think negative robotic core is a reasonably viable

01:04:02 ◼   ► strategy, but also, so is selling plastic phones

01:04:06 ◼   ► that are comfortable and come in a bunch of colors.

01:04:08 ◼   ► - Well, but so going back to the feel and protection issue

01:04:12 ◼   ► though, I would say that selling a plastic phone

01:04:16 ◼   ► and selling thicker metal phones,

01:04:18 ◼   ► that is a better strategy than selling all thin bar soap phones and letting you put cases

01:04:23 ◼   ► on afterwards. Because the fact is, people are always going to put cases on if they want

01:04:26 ◼   ► a case. Like anybody who wants extra protection for their phone for dropping and everything,

01:04:31 ◼   ► they're going to use a case no matter what shape or material the phone is. Doesn't matter.

01:04:35 ◼   ► For people who don't want to put cases on their phone, you know, and there's I think

01:04:40 ◼   ► a lot of those people and I think a lot of Apple people. So I just took out my, I got

01:04:44 ◼   ► my 5S here, and my 5S with no case,

01:04:48 ◼   ► which is how I used it because it's very comfortable

01:04:50 ◼   ► for me with no case, is thinner and lighter

01:04:54 ◼   ► than my iPhone 6 with the big leather case on it.

01:04:57 ◼   ► The argument of the battery being better if it's built in,

01:05:01 ◼   ► that applies also to the feel of the phone.

01:05:03 ◼   ► So I'm both agreeing with your earlier point

01:05:06 ◼   ► and disagreeing with your most recent point

01:05:08 ◼   ► where I think that the Nicaragua Core Strategy

01:05:11 ◼   ► falls over here because I think you're better off

01:05:13 ◼   ► just making phones to begin with

01:05:16 ◼   ► that can be used without cases

01:05:18 ◼   ► and have good battery life if you want those.

01:05:20 ◼   ► And if you want even more battery life

01:05:22 ◼   ► and if you want an even bigger, grippier,

01:05:24 ◼   ► more protective case,

01:05:25 ◼   ► those are options you can add on as well.

01:05:27 ◼   ► People always will do that.

01:05:28 ◼   ► But the basic phone, I think, needs to be better

01:05:32 ◼   ► than what we got with the 6.

01:05:34 ◼   ► - I think that all the phones

01:05:35 ◼   ► have been pretty darn slippery, right?

01:05:38 ◼   ► That is not as if the 6 is so--

01:05:40 ◼   ► - By the way, you never actually owned any of the other ones.

01:05:42 ◼   ► my wife had a 4s and a 5 with and without the case.

01:05:47 ◼   ► And you know, they've been around,

01:05:49 ◼   ► and of course I've felt other people once,

01:05:50 ◼   ► like you're right that the 6 is slipperier.

01:05:52 ◼   ► A lot of that has to do with the size change,

01:05:54 ◼   ► like that's why your 5 and 5s are lighter

01:05:56 ◼   ► because they're smaller phones, right?

01:05:57 ◼   ► - Sure.

01:05:58 ◼   ► - But I always like grippy phones.

01:06:01 ◼   ► Like I always like a case that's like silicone

01:06:03 ◼   ► or something like that and a leather one.

01:06:04 ◼   ► I need that grippiness.

01:06:05 ◼   ► You can't build in that grippiness

01:06:07 ◼   ► because by the nature of that grippiness,

01:06:10 ◼   ► it wears out, it scratches, it dents, it peels away,

01:06:13 ◼   ► it is subject to abrasions.

01:06:15 ◼   ► You just can't build that into the phone.

01:06:16 ◼   ► So you're gonna make the phone out of something,

01:06:18 ◼   ► it has to be something that's smooth and hard and shiny,

01:06:22 ◼   ► whether it's plastic or metal, because you can't,

01:06:24 ◼   ► like it would be terrible to make a phone that you buy

01:06:27 ◼   ► that basically like the whole back of it is leather, right?

01:06:29 ◼   ► But I like the feel of something that is backed by leather.

01:06:32 ◼   ► So it has to be a removable case for that material.

01:06:35 ◼   ► What you're saying is like the 4S with a glass back

01:06:37 ◼   ► or whatever, or the 5 with the metal thing,

01:06:39 ◼   ► like make it of a sturdy material that doesn't scratch

01:06:43 ◼   ► and doesn't wear out and isn't really subject to abrasions,

01:06:45 ◼   ► but also isn't slippery.

01:06:47 ◼   ► And that is really difficult to do.

01:06:48 ◼   ► So I feel like if you're either gonna go

01:06:51 ◼   ► naked robotic core for metal,

01:06:52 ◼   ► or you're gonna go non-metal material

01:06:54 ◼   ► that is nevertheless pretty hard.

01:06:56 ◼   ► You're never gonna be able to, you shouldn't, I think,

01:06:58 ◼   ► make a phone that has like integrated rubber grips

01:07:02 ◼   ► or indicated silicone things,

01:07:03 ◼   ► because you're just asking for the phone

01:07:05 ◼   ► to get dinged up and ugly.

01:07:06 ◼   ► And then it's like, oh, I can't take this off.

01:07:08 ◼   ► it's not a case, it's part of the phone.

01:07:10 ◼   ► - God, this 5S feels great.

01:07:12 ◼   ► - Speaking of the 5S on Twitter,

01:07:14 ◼   ► I forget who was saying it on Twitter,

01:07:16 ◼   ► maybe it was the tipster, maybe it was someone else,

01:07:17 ◼   ► talking about how Apple was having difficult

01:07:20 ◼   ► with the 5 and the 5S.

01:07:22 ◼   ► - It was the 5 only, yeah,

01:07:24 ◼   ► 'cause I was asking with the 5C whether it was a failure

01:07:28 ◼   ► and what the reason was for it.

01:07:30 ◼   ► It apparently got better margins

01:07:33 ◼   ► and my question was,

01:07:35 ◼   ► would would continuing to make the five with just just the

01:07:39 ◼   ► advances in time and mass production. Would they have had

01:07:42 ◼   ► similar margins like it was really that much worth it and

01:07:44 ◼   ► the answer apparently was yes, because on the fuck remember

01:07:48 ◼   ► the five and the five s the the black color was different

01:07:51 ◼   ► between the two. The five had a very, very dark black color. I

01:07:55 ◼   ► think it was called space, but whatever it was called the five

01:07:58 ◼   ► s got lighter and called it space grave anyway. The the

01:08:01 ◼   ► black finish on the five shipped and flaked off really,

01:08:06 ◼   ► really easily and most of the time like I like on my five. I

01:08:10 ◼   ► saw this most of the time. It would show up on the on the

01:08:12 ◼   ► edges, the chamfered edges where you'd see the bright

01:08:16 ◼   ► colored aluminum shining through the like the black

01:08:18 ◼   ► finish where it had like shipped off and everything so

01:08:21 ◼   ► apparently that was such a big problem for apple and getting

01:08:24 ◼   ► yields on that and everything. The tipster said that that that

01:08:28 ◼   ► was one of the biggest reasons that they switch to the plastic

01:08:31 ◼   ► the 5C rather than continuing to make those black cases as the 5A went down the lineup

01:08:37 ◼   ► because any phone they make where they don't do a 5C and replace it, which has been every

01:08:40 ◼   ► other one, these are made for like what, four years? They're made for a long time. It isn't

01:08:46 ◼   ► just the year they're the newest phone. So if there was an issue of like this thing is

01:08:50 ◼   ► proving to not age well or have too low manufacturing yields, it might be worth it for them to switch

01:08:56 ◼   ► out the entire casing and redesign the whole thing. And so that was clearly a contributing

01:09:01 ◼   ► factor very likely to the 5C's existence. But we don't have that now.

01:09:05 ◼   ► Well, they talk about yields, what they're basically talking about, and we can remember

01:09:08 ◼   ► back to the, what was it, the white-backed, you know, the 4 or 4S series, the white ones,

01:09:13 ◼   ► remember? Like, where they're talking about the yields, what they're talking about is

01:09:15 ◼   ► they build this phone, like it goes down the manufacturing line, and at some point in the

01:09:19 ◼   ► manufacturing process, there's a random sampling of things, and you look at them and say, "Does

01:09:22 ◼   ► this pass our quality standards, and what are our standards? Can it not have any nicks?

01:09:26 ◼   ► It has to be uniform color.

01:09:27 ◼   ► Because whatever their standards are,

01:09:28 ◼   ► and Apple standards are pretty darn high in terms of it

01:09:31 ◼   ► has to basically be perfect looking to the naked eye,

01:09:34 ◼   ► and maybe even with magnifying things.

01:09:36 ◼   ► The ones that aren't perfect, it's like rejected.

01:09:38 ◼   ► Like this one came off the line.

01:09:40 ◼   ► It's an iPhone 5.

01:09:41 ◼   ► It's black all over, except for this one little part

01:09:43 ◼   ► here where a flake came off and it's shiny.

01:09:44 ◼   ► Rejected.

01:09:45 ◼   ► And every time you do that, it costs you money,

01:09:47 ◼   ► because you spent all this time manufacturing this phone,

01:09:49 ◼   ► and now it didn't pass QA, and you

01:09:51 ◼   ► don't get to sell that as a phone.

01:09:52 ◼   ► All the parts have to be recycled back,

01:09:54 ◼   ► and you start over and try again.

01:09:55 ◼   ► So that's what we're talking about when we talk about yields for these things. It's all down to what your standards are

01:09:59 ◼   ► I think what your conversation on Twitter was one of the things that was offered was that

01:10:03 ◼   ► The way Apple dealt with this yield problem eventually was they started lowering their standards a little bit just to like to not have not to

01:10:09 ◼   ► Be rejecting what I don't know what the percentages are. And again, this is all speculative rumor blah blah blah

01:10:13 ◼   ► We don't know this is all true

01:10:14 ◼   ► But these are all things that sound plausible because we know for a fact that all

01:10:17 ◼   ► manufacturing have some sort of quality control process and we know based on what Apple sells that their quality control processes must be pretty

01:10:23 ◼   ► tight because every time you open up one of those apple boxes and look at that thing under

01:10:26 ◼   ► a jeweler's loop, it's pretty darn, I mean look at the freaking watch.

01:10:30 ◼   ► It's pretty amazing what they do on a massive scale.

01:10:34 ◼   ► And it doesn't take much to throw that off to say now this is costing us big bucks because

01:10:39 ◼   ► if our yield goes off by just some small percentage or fraction of a percentage, that's a big

01:10:44 ◼   ► deal to us.

01:10:45 ◼   ► But setting all of that aside, colors are cool and the 5C is really comfortable.

01:10:49 ◼   ► I'm still a big fan of that idea of a phone, if not that specific phone because now the

01:10:53 ◼   ► innards are all old.

01:10:54 ◼   ► Yeah, it's funny because on a daily basis, I typically have my hands on three different

01:10:59 ◼   ► generations of iPhone.

01:11:00 ◼   ► I have a 6.

01:11:02 ◼   ► I have it in a leather case.

01:11:03 ◼   ► I've used cases since—shoot, I think I had one on my 4s.

01:11:09 ◼   ► I did not have one on my 3gs, if memory serves.

01:11:12 ◼   ► And I had one on my 5s.

01:11:14 ◼   ► So I am a case kind of guy.

01:11:17 ◼   ► That being said, Marco, I completely agree with you that even if I wasn't into cases

01:11:21 ◼   ► for my phones. For the 6, I would absolutely have had to put one on, because I do agree

01:11:26 ◼   ► that it is slippier than any other iPhone I've owned. But anyway, on a daily basis,

01:11:32 ◼   ► I will typically have my 6 in my hand at some point. I'll have Aaron's 5S in my hand at

01:11:38 ◼   ► some point. That's in the Apple leather case, just like mine is. And we use my old 3GS as

01:11:45 ◼   ► a white noise machine for Declan when he's sleeping. And so I'll typically pick that

01:11:49 ◼   ► up to turn on the white noise.

01:11:51 ◼   ► My 3GS was a "You Look Nice Today" on loop player for Adam while he was sleeping when

01:11:55 ◼   ► he was a baby.

01:11:56 ◼   ► Yep, see?

01:11:58 ◼   ► Exactly.

01:11:59 ◼   ► So, because of that, I feel like I have a pretty good span of several different models,

01:12:07 ◼   ► and to my hand, the 5S is far and away the most comfortable.

01:12:12 ◼   ► I agree with you, Jon, that the 5C is actually more comfortable, but we don't have one in

01:12:16 ◼   ► the house.

01:12:18 ◼   ► So if I were just truly for comfort, if I were to pick a new iPhone tomorrow, it would

01:12:24 ◼   ► be a perp—my ideal iPhone tomorrow is the guts of a "6s" in the case of a 5s.

01:12:31 ◼   ► That's if you have to hold it, but what if you have to start actually looking at the

01:12:34 ◼   ► screen?

01:12:35 ◼   ► Completely agree.

01:12:36 ◼   ► In that case, I have to have a 6.

01:12:38 ◼   ► I still think the 6 Plus is a little bit freakishly large, but maybe if I had one, I would change

01:12:43 ◼   ► my tune.

01:12:44 ◼   ► Well, it's interesting.

01:12:45 ◼   ► So I know this is very, very unlikely.

01:12:49 ◼   ► It's almost certain not to happen in this revision,

01:12:51 ◼   ► and it's even very unlikely for the iPhone 7, I think,

01:12:55 ◼   ► or for any iPhone, just because of the nature,

01:12:56 ◼   ► but what I would love is if the DLC space black

01:13:00 ◼   ► watch finish was available on an iPhone.

01:13:05 ◼   ► And I don't know enough about the materials to say

01:13:07 ◼   ► it would probably have to be made of stainless steel.

01:13:09 ◼   ► I don't know if this could bond to aluminum

01:13:11 ◼   ► in the correct way.

01:13:13 ◼   ► But so obviously this is a massive stretch

01:13:15 ◼   ► of the imagination.

01:13:17 ◼   ► But if you could do it, if you could have

01:13:20 ◼   ► the stainless steel DLC coating from the space black watch

01:13:24 ◼   ► on a phone somehow, whether it's made from steel or not,

01:13:27 ◼   ► don't care, if you could do that,

01:13:30 ◼   ► that I think would be perfect because,

01:13:32 ◼   ► although it's probably gonna be heavier unfortunately,

01:13:35 ◼   ► but that'd be great because the space black coating

01:13:38 ◼   ► is extremely durable, it looks great,

01:13:41 ◼   ► is very dark, but it looks great,

01:13:43 ◼   ► and it kind of feels like it's almost like a wrapped

01:13:46 ◼   ► in vinyl kind of feeling.

01:13:48 ◼   ► It does not feel like slippery metal.

01:13:49 ◼   ► It is a little bit tackier, it's a little bit more friction.

01:13:53 ◼   ► It almost feels like plastic.

01:13:55 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:13:56 ◼   ► - That would be amazing.

01:13:57 ◼   ► - I completely agree.

01:13:58 ◼   ► - Or they could make it out of plastic.

01:14:00 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:14:01 ◼   ► It almost feels like plastic.

01:14:02 ◼   ► We have that, we can do that, it's plastic.

01:14:04 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:14:05 ◼   ► Make it kind of like a not so shiny kind of matte finish,

01:14:08 ◼   ► really hard plastic.

01:14:09 ◼   ► It could be unapologetically plastic,

01:14:10 ◼   ► - Someone said that once.

01:14:11 ◼   ► - Oh, God.

01:14:12 ◼   ► - That's great.

01:14:13 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:14:14 ◼   ► Yeah, so probably not gonna happen

01:14:15 ◼   ► because of the materials and cost involved, but--

01:14:17 ◼   ► - And weight, you called that weight.

01:14:19 ◼   ► Like, why not make it out of,

01:14:20 ◼   ► what is that big cylinder you have?

01:14:21 ◼   ► - Tungsten, yeah.

01:14:22 ◼   ► - Yeah, make a tungsten phone.

01:14:24 ◼   ► - The very small cylinder I have

01:14:25 ◼   ► that's heavier than the MacBook One.

01:14:27 ◼   ► - Good grief.

01:14:28 ◼   ► All right, I do have some questions about upgrade cycles

01:14:32 ◼   ► and some other things, but anything else about the hardware

01:14:35 ◼   ► and what may or may not happen in a couple of months.

01:14:38 ◼   ► Actually, next month, in theory.

01:14:40 ◼   ► Marco had some bold predictions about flash storage capacity too.

01:14:43 ◼   ► Oh, this is boring.

01:14:45 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:14:46 ◼   ► You make these predictions on Twitter like, "I totally think this is going to be it,"

01:14:48 ◼   ► but it comes time to the podcast, you're like, "Yeah, maybe not."

01:14:52 ◼   ► You think this is going to be it or you don't?

01:14:54 ◼   ► Because I'm not ready to make these predictions, but you seem very sure.

01:14:57 ◼   ► Well, what happens is I make these predictions on Twitter, and then between the time I make

01:15:02 ◼   ► these predictions on Twitter and now when we record the podcast, I've had hundreds of

01:15:06 ◼   ► people telling me I'm an idiot and I'm wrong.

01:15:08 ◼   ► So then I introduced myself down.

01:15:10 ◼   ► But my theory here is I don't think that we're gonna lose the 1664 128 split on the high

01:15:18 ◼   ► end models now.

01:15:19 ◼   ► I think that's gonna be here for at least one more year.

01:15:23 ◼   ► So 16 gigs, we're gonna keep going on that.

01:15:26 ◼   ► And then I just think everything else like the existing six, and if the six plus stays,

01:15:32 ◼   ► which I actually predict the existing six plus won't stay in the lineup, but that's

01:15:36 ◼   ► not that important.

01:15:37 ◼   ► I'm guessing that it does basically what it did this past year where the the six that

01:15:42 ◼   ► we have today moves down a slot becomes available in sixteen and maybe thirty two because right

01:15:48 ◼   ► now right now the the five s is available in sixteen and thirty two so maybe they would

01:15:53 ◼   ► do that again and then the existing five s that we have today is sixteen only and then

01:16:00 ◼   ► the what's below that no that's just the oh yeah the five c the five c right now is only

01:16:06 ◼   ► eight right? I think that's right. So god I hope the 5s doesn't go to eight. Jeez they

01:16:11 ◼   ► gotta stop doing that. Nothing's going to eight please. I'm still holding out hope for

01:16:16 ◼   ► a 32. I would love if the base was 32 for the new 6s or whatever we're calling that

01:16:22 ◼   ► thing but I don't see it happening unfortunately. Yeah someone wanted an argument and be like

01:16:28 ◼   ► you don't need that anymore app thinning, app slicing. Yeah I mean if you look at like

01:16:32 ◼   ► know, the direction that they're taking with so many iOS 9 app features and OS features,

01:16:39 ◼   ► part of that obviously is that they have a lot of phones out there already in the installed

01:16:42 ◼   ► base that have 16 or even 8 gigs of space, which is really unfortunate and really tight

01:16:47 ◼   ► and really stingy. They have a lot of phones out there that have those capacities already

01:16:52 ◼   ► and they're going to, they want all those to be able to upgrade to iOS 9. So that's

01:16:57 ◼   ► a problem that they were trying to solve. But if you look at all these like app thinning

01:17:01 ◼   ► and the various resource things they're doing, all this stuff. And they're also promoting

01:17:05 ◼   ► app thinning very heavily. They sent out a bulk email about it today, encouraging developers

01:17:08 ◼   ► to use it. And you can now test with internal testers, which are useless. All this stuff.

01:17:14 ◼   ► So they're clearly laying the foundation for a world in which tiny capacity iOS devices

01:17:22 ◼   ► continue to exist, basically.

01:17:23 ◼   ► I know. And I feel like there's a reason for them to do all that. Because like you said,

01:17:28 ◼   ► existing devices, they're kind of righting a wrong that already exists, but I fear someone

01:17:35 ◼   ► also used that to explain why we have to continue making 16GB devices in this next round and

01:17:40 ◼   ► why we don't have to make a 32.

01:17:41 ◼   ► Totally agreed.

01:17:42 ◼   ► Wish I could have been there and said, "Nooooo."

01:17:46 ◼   ► From what I've heard from people here and there, what I've heard, which has no credibility

01:17:51 ◼   ► whatsoever, is that it is very, very hard to convince the people at Apple who matter,

01:17:58 ◼   ► about things like this, to convince them

01:18:01 ◼   ► to spend the extra couple of bucks

01:18:03 ◼   ► on the bill of materials to get the bigger RAM chip

01:18:06 ◼   ► or to get the bigger flash memory chip.

01:18:08 ◼   ► - I believe it.

01:18:08 ◼   ► I mean, we see the evidence of it.

01:18:10 ◼   ► - Exactly.

01:18:11 ◼   ► Like we see, and there are some trade-offs too.

01:18:13 ◼   ► Like with RAM, RAM uses battery life.

01:18:15 ◼   ► So there are some trade-offs there,

01:18:17 ◼   ► but a lot of the things just come down to

01:18:19 ◼   ► making sure they have very, very healthy margins

01:18:21 ◼   ► and other things like that.

01:18:23 ◼   ► - Right, and just time marches on,

01:18:25 ◼   ► and it's like, all right, I understand

01:18:26 ◼   ► that you have reasons for it,

01:18:27 ◼   ► eventually you know you gotta and it's like they're just kicking and streaming

01:18:30 ◼   ► dragging their feet and like even bumping the capacity is like we bump the

01:18:33 ◼   ► capacity but can we cut out 32 and make keep 16 yeah let's do that that'll that

01:18:37 ◼   ► will make me feel better for the fact that I gave you the larger capacities

01:18:40 ◼   ► and we put two gigs of RAM in the iPad 3 can I just can I get rid of the 32 and

01:18:44 ◼   ► keep the 16 to money money money it's like ah like I just wish I could

01:18:47 ◼   ► convince these people of the of the long-term downside like look at our

01:18:53 ◼   ► customer set what long-term downsides you're talking about it's totally

01:18:55 ◼   ► invisible to us. I agree that's probably invisible to them, but we all know from

01:18:59 ◼   ► seeing the experiences like that it's like tiny little nicks of doubt and

01:19:04 ◼   ► damage for the person who can't like can't upgrade because their phone is

01:19:07 ◼   ► full. It's like oh we'll fix that in software with the next version, can't fit

01:19:10 ◼   ► all their stuff on it and like well we'll figure out we'll more gracefully

01:19:14 ◼   ► handle when you run out of storage. Like all these things are good to do but

01:19:17 ◼   ► another thing you can do is stop selling 16 gig phones. That's another thing you

01:19:20 ◼   ► can do and eventually you have to eventually you have to like you have to

01:19:23 ◼   ► eventually stop selling eights, you're gonna,

01:19:25 ◼   ► like they don't wanna believe that it's like,

01:19:27 ◼   ► it'll be 16 forever.

01:19:28 ◼   ► Like, yeah, I don't wanna have to use my argument again,

01:19:30 ◼   ► which doesn't have a name that we've agreed upon,

01:19:32 ◼   ► but I had to say like 2075, 16 gig iPhones, it's fine.

01:19:37 ◼   ► We did app thinning, like some,

01:19:38 ◼   ► you gotta upgrade eventually people.

01:19:40 ◼   ► And it's just a matter of arguing over what year

01:19:42 ◼   ► it's gonna be.

01:19:43 ◼   ► And I feel like the year I want it to be is like,

01:19:46 ◼   ► it's always two to three years different

01:19:47 ◼   ► than the year Apple wants it to be.

01:19:48 ◼   ► So we should.

01:19:49 ◼   ► - So what kind of timescale would we need to get that?

01:19:53 ◼   ► You just need them to agree that it's going to happen

01:19:56 ◼   ► and then make them pick which year it's going to happen in.

01:19:59 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:20:00 ◼   ► - You agree with me that 16 gigs will go away.

01:20:02 ◼   ► What year will that happen?

01:20:03 ◼   ► Well, not this year for sure, okay.

01:20:04 ◼   ► We've narrowed it down, not this year.

01:20:06 ◼   ► Will it happen next year?

01:20:08 ◼   ► Mm, not next year, but ask me again next year.

01:20:10 ◼   ► Will it happen the year after that?

01:20:11 ◼   ► And you just keep going and then eventually

01:20:13 ◼   ► you're 75 years out and like, look, we're all dead now

01:20:15 ◼   ► and you still think it'll be 16 gig components?

01:20:16 ◼   ► I'm like, I just can't spare the margins.

01:20:19 ◼   ► Just can't do it.

01:20:20 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, because if you think about

01:20:22 ◼   ► It's like the iPhone, from Apple's financials point of view,

01:20:26 ◼   ► from the stock and from their financial performance

01:20:29 ◼   ► and everything, the iPhone is their most important product

01:20:32 ◼   ► by a long shot.

01:20:33 ◼   ► And anything that drives up the average selling price

01:20:37 ◼   ► of iPhones is a pretty big deal to them.

01:20:40 ◼   ► It's a huge deal for their money,

01:20:43 ◼   ► it's a huge deal for Tim Cook's evaluation,

01:20:46 ◼   ► like by the market and the press and maybe the board,

01:20:49 ◼   ► who knows.

01:20:50 ◼   ► - But that's not how they operate though,

01:20:51 ◼   ► you know how they could save a lot of money?

01:20:53 ◼   ► Use crappier materials and don't be so obsessed

01:20:55 ◼   ► with the stupid chamfered edges.

01:20:56 ◼   ► But those people, the people who want that stuff

01:20:58 ◼   ► to be perfect, they win the arguments.

01:21:00 ◼   ► They say, "Yes, we could do this much more cheaply

01:21:04 ◼   ► and we wouldn't have all these QA problems."

01:21:06 ◼   ► And by the way, the ADBtipster wants us to know

01:21:07 ◼   ► they didn't actually decrease their standards.

01:21:09 ◼   ► What they did was increase their standards

01:21:10 ◼   ► earlier in their production process

01:21:12 ◼   ► to not let those cases end up being

01:21:13 ◼   ► in completed phones or whatever.

01:21:14 ◼   ► But anyway, those people win their arguments

01:21:17 ◼   ► because you could save tons of money.

01:21:19 ◼   ► You'd be a PC manufacturer,

01:21:21 ◼   ► "Make all your trackpads out of plastic, it's way cheaper.

01:21:23 ◼   ► "Look at those huge margins."

01:21:25 ◼   ► But they don't do that.

01:21:25 ◼   ► Why?

01:21:26 ◼   ► Because they wanna make the best product they can.

01:21:28 ◼   ► And I feel like at this point,

01:21:30 ◼   ► selling phones for 100 or $200 with,

01:21:34 ◼   ► or you can even give a $300 one,

01:21:36 ◼   ► with 16 gigs of flash storage

01:21:39 ◼   ► is making your products worse for people

01:21:42 ◼   ► in a way that is avoidable with not too much,

01:21:45 ◼   ► you know, wouldn't hurt your margins that much.

01:21:47 ◼   ► In the same way, like if you need a trade-off,

01:21:49 ◼   ► maybe find a way to make it out of cheaper, easier to--

01:21:52 ◼   ► I think they did that.

01:21:53 ◼   ► I think the six plus is easier to manufacture

01:21:55 ◼   ► this curved piece of aluminum

01:21:57 ◼   ► than it was to manufacture the five

01:21:58 ◼   ► and the five S with the little chamfered edges.

01:22:00 ◼   ► It seems like, I don't know anything about manufacture,

01:22:01 ◼   ► but it seems to me that this one

01:22:03 ◼   ► must be cheaper to manufacture.

01:22:04 ◼   ► So hey, use some of that money that you saved

01:22:06 ◼   ► making a easier to manufacture case

01:22:08 ◼   ► that's easier to get to pass QA,

01:22:10 ◼   ► put that into maybe having a 32 gig model

01:22:13 ◼   ► somewhere in your lineup

01:22:14 ◼   ► and maybe not selling the 16 at the top of the line.

01:22:17 ◼   ► - But it's not about saving the five or 10 bucks

01:22:20 ◼   ► or whatever the cost is of the flash chip

01:22:22 ◼   ► in going from 16 to 32.

01:22:25 ◼   ► It's about the people who upgrade,

01:22:28 ◼   ► who pay the extra $100 to go from 16 to 64,

01:22:32 ◼   ► who wouldn't have done that if the base model was 32.

01:22:35 ◼   ► - You're right, it comes out the money.

01:22:38 ◼   ► Like, basically what he's saying is like,

01:22:39 ◼   ► "Well, they're really sensitive to money.

01:22:40 ◼   ► "This is a big product line.

01:22:41 ◼   ► "Any small change in the device that sells in this volume

01:22:44 ◼   ► "for this amount of money adds up to big numbers."

01:22:47 ◼   ► right. It's the anchoring, it's like, "Well, I don't want a 16, and it's my only other

01:22:50 ◼   ► choice is a 64, and they can charge more for 64, but 64 is so much bigger than 16."

01:22:54 ◼   ► All that stuff is all true. It's just like, you know, those type of pricing games and

01:22:58 ◼   ► stuff, you can play those, but the worst thing you can do is put a product into the hands

01:23:02 ◼   ► of people that is going to give them a less satisfactory experience that will just get

01:23:07 ◼   ► worse over time, that will make them have bad feelings about you or your products.

01:23:13 ◼   ► - I agree, but Apple has always done that.

01:23:15 ◼   ► They've always had very low RAM configurations

01:23:18 ◼   ► on the base model laptops and stuff like that.

01:23:20 ◼   ► - They came out of that.

01:23:21 ◼   ► I felt like they got over that.

01:23:23 ◼   ► It was a really dark time where your new $3,000 Mac

01:23:28 ◼   ► comes standard with an obscenely small amount of RAM.

01:23:31 ◼   ► It might as well be empty.

01:23:32 ◼   ► Don't even try to use it in this configuration.

01:23:36 ◼   ► And by the way, if you don't buy your RAMs from us,

01:23:37 ◼   ► it avoids the warranty.

01:23:39 ◼   ► Those are the bad old days.

01:23:40 ◼   ► I felt like they came out of that,

01:23:42 ◼   ► especially when they started soldering RAM on the board,

01:23:44 ◼   ► that's one of the best things that happened to them RAM wise

01:23:46 ◼   ► because they were forced to use a sane amount.

01:23:48 ◼   ► - Right.

01:23:49 ◼   ► - Because if there was gonna be, you know,

01:23:50 ◼   ► it's a pro laptop, but we put soldered on the board

01:23:52 ◼   ► for gigs now and you can't expand it.

01:23:55 ◼   ► It's like, so they were forced to pick sane numbers there.

01:23:57 ◼   ► I think that was a plus.

01:23:58 ◼   ► The flash and the iPhones is their new area of backsliding.

01:24:02 ◼   ► They just feel like they can get away with it

01:24:04 ◼   ► for just way too long.

01:24:06 ◼   ► - Well, and they obviously can get away with it.

01:24:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, I know, but there are, it's ramifications.

01:24:11 ◼   ► How many podcasts am I gonna say that on now?

01:24:13 ◼   ► What is the fallout?

01:24:16 ◼   ► I'll even give them this current lineup

01:24:18 ◼   ► that we've all got in our hands.

01:24:20 ◼   ► I'll even give them that 16.

01:24:21 ◼   ► Fine, you get a pass on that one.

01:24:22 ◼   ► But this year, I really, really, really hope

01:24:24 ◼   ► in the top of the line product,

01:24:25 ◼   ► it doesn't even go down to 16

01:24:27 ◼   ► and that there's definitely a 32.

01:24:29 ◼   ► - You wanna bet?

01:24:30 ◼   ► - I would not bet against it

01:24:31 ◼   ► because I think there's about at least a 50/50 chance

01:24:34 ◼   ► that you're right and that it's gonna go down to 16.

01:24:36 ◼   ► But I just really, if only just because

01:24:38 ◼   ► that's the phones that they're making.

01:24:41 ◼   ► I'll bet you a 16 gig SD card that the base model stays 16.

01:24:46 ◼   ► - No, I would not take that bet.

01:24:49 ◼   ► I just, I feel like it's a coin toss, so.

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01:27:50 ◼   ► I have a couple of questions about upgrading.

01:27:54 ◼   ► So last year I was off cycle, but I treated myself and somehow convinced Aaron that it

01:28:00 ◼   ► was worth it to get a six out of contract.

01:28:04 ◼   ► Well, that's not even true. It was kind of in contract. I don't know, it was weird. Anyway...

01:28:07 ◼   ► Like the half-subsidy where you pay like $400 for it or something?

01:28:10 ◼   ► Exactly. This is on AT&T.

01:28:12 ◼   ► This year, Erin is unequivocally due for a new phone. Her 5S is two years old, or will be two years old.

01:28:19 ◼   ► It is her time. We'll see if I can convince her/me if I should also get a new phone. We'll see how that goes.

01:28:27 ◼   ► But my understanding—and I've not really had any time to look into this yet—

01:28:31 ◼   ► But my understanding is AT&T and most of the other carriers have largely done away with

01:28:36 ◼   ► the subsidy and two-year contract dance that has been going on for forever and a day.

01:28:44 ◼   ► Do you guys happen to know anything about how this is working?

01:28:47 ◼   ► Oh, man.

01:28:48 ◼   ► I tried doing research before the show, because I've also heard the same thing, that apparently

01:28:54 ◼   ► in Apple stores this fall, if you buy the phone through an Apple store, apparently they—I

01:28:59 ◼   ► that they won't do subsidies at all or that you have to do these like AT&T Next type plans

01:29:04 ◼   ► where like you pay per month additional amounts for the phone for like X months, which by

01:29:09 ◼   ► the way is apparently like how the entire rest of the world works.

01:29:12 ◼   ► And it's the more sane way to do it. It is the less manipulative way. The way things

01:29:17 ◼   ► are priced now is to fool you into like you know you're not good. People's brains aren't

01:29:22 ◼   ► good at realizing exactly how much money they're paying over the X number of years for this.

01:29:25 ◼   ► Like they don't see the subsidy. They're like, "Oh, I get a phone for 200 bucks and I have

01:29:28 ◼   ► a monthly bill that feels so much better to me and no one wants to do the math to figure

01:29:32 ◼   ► out, you know what, you're actually paying more.

01:29:33 ◼   ► So I'm kind of baffled as to why they're changing it because the voodoo of that pricing works

01:29:39 ◼   ► really well.

01:29:41 ◼   ► Maybe competitive pressure from T-Mobile?

01:29:45 ◼   ► I can't even think of why they would change.

01:29:47 ◼   ► Because the underdog, the crappy carriers that don't have good coverage that are trying

01:29:51 ◼   ► to get customers are like, "Hey, we have honest pricing and you can do math and figure out

01:29:54 ◼   ► how it works and blah, blah, blah," to try to attract customers.

01:29:58 ◼   ► that's putting some pressure on AT&T and Verizon, but honestly it's a mystery to me why they

01:30:03 ◼   ► would go from a confusing pricing plan that makes people feel like they're not paying

01:30:07 ◼   ► a lot, but really they are, to a pricing plan that is initially more off-putting because

01:30:11 ◼   ► you see the real costs, but is actually more fair and understandable in the long term.

01:30:16 ◼   ► But one thing's for sure, I think this is not good news for Apple. Like to me, I think

01:30:22 ◼   ► having the iPhone being compared on unsubsidized pricing at any level, even if you try to,

01:30:27 ◼   ► you know, put it in as a, well, this is,

01:30:29 ◼   ► the iPhone 6s will be $25 a month more,

01:30:32 ◼   ► and the iPhone 6 will be $20 a month more.

01:30:34 ◼   ► You know, even if you try to break it into like,

01:30:36 ◼   ► kind of like layaway plan pricing like that,

01:30:38 ◼   ► having the real price become more visible in any way

01:30:42 ◼   ► without these subsidies is almost certain

01:30:44 ◼   ► to negatively affect iPhone sales.

01:30:47 ◼   ► - Don't you think it'll negatively affect all sales?

01:30:49 ◼   ► Like, aren't the carriers doing this

01:30:50 ◼   ► across all their phones or just for the iPhone?

01:30:52 ◼   ► - I think they are doing it across all their phones,

01:30:54 ◼   ► But now it is creating a price umbrella

01:30:58 ◼   ► for people to go under Apple on,

01:31:00 ◼   ► and some phones already are cheaper than Apple's.

01:31:02 ◼   ► I think it'll greatly help things like,

01:31:04 ◼   ► is it the Moto X, whatever the cheap--

01:31:08 ◼   ► - But they've always been cheaper.

01:31:09 ◼   ► They've always been like the free with contract phone

01:31:11 ◼   ► or whatever, like I guess it depends on like

01:31:14 ◼   ► how much bigger are Apple subsidies

01:31:16 ◼   ► than they are for the basically comparable phones,

01:31:19 ◼   ► for the top of the line Samsung smartphone or whatever.

01:31:22 ◼   ► I think the pricing on the box,

01:31:23 ◼   ► is that how it's been similar?

01:31:25 ◼   ► Like it's, you know, 199 to get you into

01:31:27 ◼   ► the best Samsung Galaxy S whatever they're up to

01:31:30 ◼   ► and 199 for the best iPhone.

01:31:32 ◼   ► And the only difference may be,

01:31:33 ◼   ► well actually behind the scenes,

01:31:34 ◼   ► even though the list price for you is 199

01:31:37 ◼   ► plus, you know, two year contract,

01:31:39 ◼   ► behind the scenes, the carriers are paying Apple

01:31:41 ◼   ► way more than they're paying Samsung.

01:31:42 ◼   ► And so once that becomes visible,

01:31:44 ◼   ► suddenly it's not 199 versus 199.

01:31:46 ◼   ► It's actually a much bigger number for the iPhone

01:31:49 ◼   ► versus a smaller number for the supposedly equivalent

01:31:52 ◼   ► top of the line Samsung phone.

01:31:55 ◼   ► If that's true, then that could hurt Apple,

01:31:56 ◼   ► but I think it'll just hurt everybody across the board

01:31:58 ◼   ► because people don't wanna see the real price

01:32:01 ◼   ► of their smartphone.

01:32:03 ◼   ► I mean, I guess we can get used to it,

01:32:04 ◼   ► 'cause like you said, that's how the rest of the world

01:32:05 ◼   ► kind of does it, and it's still kind of hidden.

01:32:07 ◼   ► It's like plus X number of amounts per month

01:32:09 ◼   ► for X number of months,

01:32:10 ◼   ► and that'll still be enough multiplication

01:32:12 ◼   ► to stop people from doing it,

01:32:13 ◼   ► as opposed to basically buying an unlocked phone

01:32:15 ◼   ► and like, okay, give me $1,200,

01:32:17 ◼   ► whatever the hell it is for the unlocked,

01:32:19 ◼   ► you're like, "Whoa, whoa, I'm not using a $1,200 phone."

01:32:21 ◼   ► It's like, you are, you just don't know it.

01:32:24 ◼   ► - Right, and the other problem is,

01:32:26 ◼   ► in the US, up 'til now in the US,

01:32:29 ◼   ► if you kept buying the contract discounts, basically,

01:32:33 ◼   ► and these plans have been, like these pay every month

01:32:35 ◼   ► things have been around for what, about a year or two now,

01:32:37 ◼   ► but a lot of people still haven't been using them.

01:32:39 ◼   ► And so up until now, if you're on one of the big carriers,

01:32:42 ◼   ► basically AT&T and Verizon in the US,

01:32:45 ◼   ► let's say you were on a two-year contract,

01:32:48 ◼   ► at the end of those two years, your bill doesn't go down.

01:32:51 ◼   ► Like once your phone is like quote paid off

01:32:53 ◼   ► for the contract, your bill has not decreased.

01:32:57 ◼   ► And so you basically had a reason to go into the phone store

01:33:01 ◼   ► and pick out a new phone for quote free every two years

01:33:05 ◼   ► because you could, because there was no new cost to you

01:33:10 ◼   ► to do that because you were paying for a subsidy

01:33:13 ◼   ► whether you were using it or not.

01:33:15 ◼   ► Your bills stay the same.

01:33:17 ◼   ► With these plans, that is changing.

01:33:20 ◼   ► And so now, I think you're right, Jon.

01:33:23 ◼   ► Like, you know, this is two-sided.

01:33:24 ◼   ► One is Apple could be vulnerable

01:33:26 ◼   ► to people having cheaper phones than them,

01:33:28 ◼   ► but two, which is bigger, which you're right,

01:33:30 ◼   ► affects everybody, is that now I think people

01:33:32 ◼   ► will expect their phones to last longer than two years.

01:33:36 ◼   ► And they won't upgrade as frequently.

01:33:37 ◼   ► 'Cause the whole, the entire smartphone business,

01:33:41 ◼   ► the reason why Apple is never gonna find another thing

01:33:44 ◼   ► like the iPhone, there's never gonna be like

01:33:46 ◼   ► the next great product that is as good financially for Apple as the iPhone was, because there

01:33:53 ◼   ► is nothing like the subsidized cell phone market. It's such a weird little oddity of

01:33:59 ◼   ► a market where everybody buys a phone, like everybody, and smartphones in so many countries,