125: A Better Future for Everybody


00:00:00   I sound like crap because I'm still freaking sick. Yeah, I'm currently nursing a throat

00:00:05   lozenge or whatever they call it, a cough drop.

00:00:08   It's pronounced "la-zenge."

00:00:09   Ah, right. And "biz-el."

00:00:11   Yep.

00:00:12   That was a reference, Jon. To you, actually.

00:00:14   [Laughter]

00:00:15   Anyway...

00:00:16   Culturally significant that one time I mispronounced the word.

00:00:18   It was culturally significant.

00:00:20   Anyway, I have a question for you two. How in the name of Zeus's butthole—also a reference—do

00:00:26   You get healthy when you have a child that is waking up in the middle of the night more

00:00:32   than occasionally because he's like in a wonder week or teething or sick or whatever.

00:00:37   How do you ever get healthy if you can't sleep?

00:00:40   Waking up in the middle of the night implies that the rest of the night the baby is sleeping,

00:00:43   so really you don't have anything to complain about.

00:00:48   It's just this time in the night when the baby wakes up, if that is significant, then

00:00:52   that tells you that the rest of the night,

00:00:54   you have an expectation that the baby will be asleep.

00:00:56   So really, you have a really good sleeping baby

00:00:59   and you can't complain that much.

00:01:00   How do you get better?

00:01:01   You will eventually, it'll happen, you'll see.

00:01:04   - All right, well, to continue with the housekeeping,

00:01:06   all kidding aside, for the two of your benefit,

00:01:09   for your two benefit and for the live listeners,

00:01:11   if I suddenly go silent in the middle of saying something,

00:01:15   just give me five to 10 seconds

00:01:16   and assume I'm hacking up a lung and I'm just muted

00:01:20   and just carry on, or well I guess don't carry on,

00:01:22   just give me a moment, and if I really have disappeared,

00:01:25   assume that I've poured more stuff on Aaron's Mac

00:01:28   and it's just all over at this point.

00:01:30   - Now don't pour cough syrup on there, for many reasons.

00:01:33   First of all, there's no way it would survive that.

00:01:35   Second of all, cough syrup doesn't actually work.

00:01:37   - That's probably true.

00:01:38   - It really, like nothing.

00:01:39   Like believe me, I'm an expert in coughing.

00:01:42   Like cough suppressants just don't work.

00:01:44   Like the only effective ones are like the narcotic ones

00:01:47   that just knock you out.

00:01:49   - Yeah, that suppresses your cough

00:01:50   because it puts you to sleep.

00:01:51   - Right, like it's not,

00:01:52   that's not really fixing the right problem.

00:01:54   It's like, yeah, shooting you in the head,

00:01:55   but also stop your cough.

00:01:57   You know, not, maybe not a good idea,

00:01:59   but you know, that would do it.

00:02:01   So yeah, cough,

00:02:02   nothing that's a cough suppressant actually works.

00:02:05   The only thing that works is either fixing the root problem,

00:02:08   which isn't always possible,

00:02:09   or if you're lucky, just like chain sucking,

00:02:13   please don't make that a title,

00:02:15   chain sucking those Ricola cough drops

00:02:18   with the menthol, like the traditional default flavor,

00:02:22   whatever it is, not like the weird fruit ones,

00:02:24   the regular, like the brown ones that taste like menthol.

00:02:27   That helps as long as it's in your mouth.

00:02:29   Like as soon as it's gone, it stops working.

00:02:32   So that's why you have to have, like, if you buy those,

00:02:34   just go right for the big bag,

00:02:36   the one that has like 40 instead of 10,

00:02:38   go right for the big bag.

00:02:40   - I want to do some follow up.

00:02:43   Cool, sounds great.

00:02:46   John, Serge K. wrote in and quoted you in saying that you said, "The drive just see

00:02:54   blocks.

00:02:55   It doesn't know about file systems."

00:02:57   Serge wanted to tell us that, "Firmware of modern drives reaches one million lines of

00:03:01   code and they do recognize common file systems."

00:03:05   Obviously encryption breaks this, but that's not common, especially in data centers.

00:03:09   This allows the drive to reorder or delay commit some metadata updates that are recoverable

00:03:14   by checking disk in case of failure. You had put this in the show notes, so tell us a little

00:03:18   more about this, please.

00:03:19   >> Yeah, I'm wondering, I'm actually surprised by this, because this implies some sort of

00:03:26   synergy in the market between the people who sell these drives and the machines they're

00:03:30   expected to go in and the file systems they're going to use. Like, how can the firmware on

00:03:35   a drive know about a file system? Like, how does it know what file system it's even being

00:03:38   initialized with? How does that communication happen across the various layers of the storage

00:03:43   system to say, like can you just buy one of these mechanisms, stick it in a thing and

00:03:46   format it as ext4 or whatever and then it knows that it's formatted by ext4 and does

00:03:52   clever things.

00:03:53   This is actually very interesting and it's the type of thing that capital O, capital

00:03:58   A, TM, only Apple can do.

00:04:00   But hey wait, this has nothing to do with Apple.

00:04:02   I thought only Apple could have this kind of connection between hardware and software.

00:04:05   Well apparently it can also happen in the wild and woolly world of what I imagine are

00:04:10   Linux servers and random storage hardware.

00:04:13   So I'm always interested in cases where

00:04:16   the supposedly rigid layers of the storage hierarchy

00:04:19   are quote unquote violated,

00:04:22   as the claim was about ZFS back in the day.

00:04:25   There was a rampant layering violation

00:04:27   combining the file system and logical volume management

00:04:30   and a bunch of other things and raid all into one thing.

00:04:32   Like, you know, we have this nice layered approach

00:04:35   where each thing is responsible for each layer

00:04:36   and I can mix and match my logical volume manager

00:04:38   with my file system, with my RAID thing.

00:04:41   And ZFS combined them all to, I think, great effect

00:04:44   by saying if we don't have that mix and match thing,

00:04:46   kind of like the way Apple Macs are not in mix and match

00:04:51   where you get to pick your own CPU and pick your own this

00:04:53   and pick your own that and build your own Mac,

00:04:55   that Apple picks the components in the same way.

00:04:57   ZFS, by picking all those different layers

00:04:59   and combining them, did some really interesting

00:05:01   and cool things.

00:05:02   This sounds like an interesting and cool thing.

00:05:04   This is the first I've ever heard of this,

00:05:06   that an SSD, I'm assuming it just has drives here,

00:05:09   that an SSD knows about the file system

00:05:13   and I would love to learn more

00:05:14   about how that actually happens.

00:05:17   But there you have it, at least one report

00:05:19   that this is now a thing.

00:05:21   - All right, we also had someone write in, Ryan wrote in.

00:05:25   Apparently Ryan is the one Honda Fit driver

00:05:27   that listens to the show and he or she

00:05:30   wanted to correct us about cameras on the Fit

00:05:35   And as our resident Honda expert, John,

00:05:37   would you like to tell us a little more?

00:05:38   - I think I was making a joke last time about like toasters,

00:05:40   how you know, you can make a decent toaster for 50 bucks.

00:05:44   Like you just concentrate on the important things

00:05:46   and the same way that you don't expect a Honda Fit

00:05:48   to have the fancy cameras that Marco's BMW has,

00:05:51   you don't expect a fancy toaster

00:05:52   to have all the bells and whistles.

00:05:53   You just want the basics right.

00:05:54   Like I was saying that the knobs on a Honda Fit

00:05:56   and the controls on a Honda Fit

00:05:57   still feel like they're quality components,

00:05:59   even though it's a cheap car.

00:06:00   Apparently, I don't know if this is an optional

00:06:02   or standard equipment,

00:06:03   The Honda Fit does have cameras on all sides of it.

00:06:06   I don't know if it does that synergy thing.

00:06:09   Maybe Ryan didn't understand the feature

00:06:10   that on Marco's car where,

00:06:12   yes, it has cameras on all the corners.

00:06:14   It also combines the cameras to show you

00:06:16   as if there's like a virtual camera floating above your car,

00:06:20   looking down on it so you can see

00:06:21   what's on all sides of your car in real time.

00:06:23   - Yes, the bird's eye view.

00:06:24   - Yeah, so I think this is just a bunch of cameras

00:06:28   on the corners to show you like your blind spots and stuff,

00:06:30   which is cool and everything.

00:06:31   It just shows how this tech is slowly creeping down.

00:06:34   And once you have the cameras in place, the extra bit of smarts to combine them into an

00:06:40   image isn't that complicated.

00:06:41   So it seems like it will eventually trickle down to even the cheapest cars.

00:06:44   But it shows that either as standard equipment or possibly optional on the Honda Fit, you

00:06:49   have a bunch of cameras that show you things.

00:06:51   Even on my Honda Accord, I have a backup camera.

00:06:54   So they're cameras.

00:06:55   They're coming to cars near you.

00:06:56   Yes.

00:06:57   And please, please don't write in telling us about regulations and things that are going

00:07:00   require backup cameras to be there. We know about those. Thank you.

00:07:04   [laughter]

00:07:05   Also, unrelated to any of the other follow-up, "unknown" has told us that there's lots of

00:07:10   classical music in the iTunes Music Store and on Apple Music. I'm not sure why that's

00:07:13   significant, but it's in the show notes and we have now covered it.

00:07:16   Yeah, I don't know who said that, but a bunch of people—that's not a quote. It was like,

00:07:20   "Oh, there's tons of classical music." And then the very next thing from Frank Hertz

00:07:23   is, "For unknown reasons, iTunes, Apple Music, Spotify, anything are awful at classical music.

00:07:29   vast archives of studio recordings for me and unavailable online. So there are two opinions

00:07:33   on classical music. One person saying that one person's name I did not record saying

00:07:37   there's tons of classical music and another person saying that there's not. So I don't

00:07:42   know what to think but obviously at least one person is not satisfied with the selection

00:07:46   available. You don't say. Yeah and then Chris wrote in to say that another thing that's

00:07:49   not on iTunes is hip-hop mixtapes, even mainstream ones, almost never on streaming services or

00:07:55   stores due to copyright for all the samples they include. Which I guess kind of falls

00:07:58   the same category as mashups.

00:08:00   Alright, this is my favorite piece of follow-up for this week.

00:08:04   We had somewhat comically, somewhat flippantly told _DavidSmith in the last episode, or had

00:08:11   assumed that _DavidSmith would figure out the origin of the phrase on an infinite time

00:08:17   scale.

00:08:19   This was referenced about 43 minutes into the last episode.

00:08:22   Underscore has reported in which is totally unsurprising and yet kind of surprising

00:08:27   And he has said that the first usage of the exact phrase infinite timescale wasn't was by Marco on

00:08:33   ATP 83 at about an hour in 14 minutes

00:08:38   However, the concept was introduced in ATP 53 at about an hour and 16 minutes, but in now I'm quoting

00:08:46   John never used the now canonical phrasing himself. I

00:08:52   I loved _DavidSmith. I don't know how he figured this out. I don't know what he did, but he figured it out.

00:08:57   Well, he is the official show historian.

00:08:59   That is true. He is the official show historian.

00:09:01   And the reason he looked this up is that my intention is that this infinite timescale thing is not the canonical phrasing of anything.

00:09:07   That it is what Marco made up to make fun of my argument that I made to him in probably episode 33.

00:09:14   And it's just the concept. The concept, once again, was that if you agree with me that something will happen eventually,

00:09:19   but can never actually agree on any actual finite time.

00:09:22   Like, well, you know, and then that's the mark.

00:09:24   I'll say, well, on an infinite timescale,

00:09:25   the idea is that you're not saying, you know,

00:09:28   it will happen when time equals infinity.

00:09:29   You're saying we all agree that at some point in the future

00:09:32   this thing will happen, but it won't happen this year

00:09:35   or next year or the year after that

00:09:36   or the year after that or the year after that.

00:09:37   And so you try to get to pin the person down and you say,

00:09:40   well, is it ever gonna happen or is it never?

00:09:43   And as well, it's gonna have it eventually.

00:09:45   Of course we agree.

00:09:46   But then it's like, all right, five years, 10 years,

00:09:47   15 years, 100 years.

00:09:49   And so infinite time scale, infinity was,

00:09:52   is conceptually in there,

00:09:53   but I don't think I used that particular phrase.

00:09:55   Again, I'm not entirely sure,

00:09:56   because who can remember what you say?

00:09:58   So I had, I would love for people to find definitively

00:10:03   the source of this.

00:10:03   Someone else wrote in and said they thought it was on debug.

00:10:05   I think it was Guy English was saying like,

00:10:06   maybe you said it on debug,

00:10:07   'cause I've made similar arguments with stubborn people

00:10:10   who refuse to acknowledge the inevitability of the future.

00:10:14   I believe, by the way, like the argument with Marco was about

00:10:17   - No, the argument maybe with Guy and Marco

00:10:19   was both about how Objective-C needed to be replaced.

00:10:22   - Yep, that's right.

00:10:22   - And I had to resort to like,

00:10:24   we all agree it's gonna happen eventually, right guys?

00:10:28   You're like, yeah, we'll find it.

00:10:29   And it eventually turned out to be like next year

00:10:30   or something.

00:10:31   - Yeah, it was like six months away, yeah.

00:10:33   - Right, but that's something like you never,

00:10:35   sometimes it's farther than you think.

00:10:37   And whenever it's like a new technology

00:10:38   is gonna be able in five to 10 years,

00:10:39   especially if it has to do with medicine,

00:10:42   it's always five to 10 years away.

00:10:43   And it just seems like it takes so long to get there.

00:10:47   But in tech, you could be caught by surprise

00:10:49   because lots of things in tech are feasible right now,

00:10:54   but we know there's a bunch of other things

00:10:56   that are stopping them from happening.

00:10:57   And so it could happen tomorrow, but probably not.

00:11:00   And it didn't happen last year,

00:11:02   and it didn't happen the year before.

00:11:03   Like we were with Objective-C for so long.

00:11:04   And even me with my whole thing of like Copeland 2010,

00:11:07   2010 came and went, still Objective-C, right?

00:11:10   So that's the fun of the industry we're in,

00:11:14   that unlike medicine and other fields where things are very

00:11:19   often-- and pure science-- things are very often much

00:11:22   farther out than you think they are.

00:11:23   In technology, there are lots of things

00:11:25   that we know are possible today, but that sort of market forces

00:11:28   or momentum or just stubbornness of the people in charge

00:11:32   of these companies causes this not

00:11:34   to happen when we want them to.

00:11:36   But then you could just wake up one day and boom, all of a

00:11:39   sudden, it's there.

00:11:40   Boom, Apple has a new file system.

00:11:41   Where did that come from?

00:11:42   Oh, God.

00:11:43   Someday it'll happen, right?

00:11:45   Someday.

00:11:46   It'll happen next year.

00:11:47   It could.

00:11:48   It could literally happen.

00:11:49   It could have happened this year.

00:11:50   It could literally happen next year.

00:11:51   There's nothing stopping it other than, you know, taking a really long time to do something

00:11:56   that should have been done years ago.

00:11:58   I enjoy this, what has become a routine segment of, in every show, Jon has to explain one

00:12:04   of the arguments he's made in the past that everybody keeps slightly misunderstanding.

00:12:08   Yeah.

00:12:09   - Well, the whole, the idea that infinite time scale,

00:12:13   the infinite time scale argument that that got,

00:12:15   that is the short version of this thing,

00:12:17   it's a terrible short name because it's misleading.

00:12:19   So that's why I'm trying to figure out, is this my fault?

00:12:22   Did I actually say this or is this Marco's fault?

00:12:25   And so far it's looking like it's Marco's fault.

00:12:26   - Most likely, yeah.

00:12:28   But I am really good at naming things,

00:12:29   even if names aren't entirely accurate.

00:12:31   - Yeah, you should have just called it the argument.

00:12:32   - Yeah, exactly.

00:12:34   - All right, and our final piece of follow-up,

00:12:36   which I didn't even think to include

00:12:38   until I noticed it in the show notes,

00:12:40   so somebody else had said it, I guess Marco.

00:12:42   This is a very good idea.

00:12:44   In the show notes, it reads as follows.

00:12:46   Marco would like to explain the state

00:12:48   of US radio to non-Americans.

00:12:49   So, Marco.

00:12:51   - Yeah, I put this in here last minute,

00:12:53   'cause I kept thinking, we kept getting feedback from people,

00:12:56   'cause last time we talked a lot about Beats 1,

00:12:59   and about how terrible modern radio is,

00:13:02   like broadcast FM radio.

00:13:04   And I will include Sirius XM in there as well.

00:13:07   I've been an XM customer for a long time,

00:13:09   then when Howard Stern went over,

00:13:11   I became a serious customer.

00:13:14   And I've been a satellite radio customer since about 2003,

00:13:19   yeah, about 2003, 2002.

00:13:22   So I've been there for a long time.

00:13:25   So, and before that, you know, radio was my whole youth.

00:13:27   Radio was everything to me.

00:13:29   Music was everything.

00:13:30   I grew up with radio as I think we all did,

00:13:32   being a very big deal.

00:13:34   And the state of radio, from what I've heard from people,

00:13:37   The state of radio in other countries, especially what sounds like people love BBC One and BBC

00:13:42   Radio, which I have no familiarity with at all.

00:13:46   I don't even know if that's the right station, I don't know.

00:13:48   It sounds like radio in other places is potentially good sometimes.

00:13:54   In the US, that is just not the case.

00:13:56   Radio in the US was gutted by Clear Channel, which is now iHeartRadio.

00:14:01   It was gutted by Clear Channel over the last couple decades.

00:14:05   And you know, you can't just blame one company and say they ruined everything.

00:14:09   The fact is, the difficult economics of radio ruined everything, really.

00:14:14   But it just became cheaper and crappier and more and more automated and fake and it just

00:14:21   became horrible to the point where now most FM stations in America are not...

00:14:30   very little human involvement. It's not like a DJ sitting at a console playing records all day,

00:14:34   you know, everything's like recorded ahead of time or just programmed completely with no humans or

00:14:39   with fake human involvement or minimal human involvement. There is no, like the idea of like,

00:14:44   a person with nice eclectic music taste curating a playlist for you, that doesn't exist really

00:14:51   on any scale. You know, there might be one or two stations in some cities that do it,

00:14:54   but for the most part in America, most places you are, you're not going to find that on the radio.

00:15:00   And so radio in America is just terrible. It's full of the worst commercials in the world

00:15:04   the same like 20 songs in a loop on a playlist and Sirius XM is

00:15:10   In most ways no better. It is as much as I've been a customer of this company for so many years

00:15:19   It's a horrible company. It's like it's horribly run. They have pretty questionable ethics when it comes to their marketing and billing practices

00:15:28   The audio quality is just awful over the air and their website is terrible, their app is

00:15:35   terrible, it's always been terrible.

00:15:38   The only reason this company exists and succeeds first was because it had eclectic music channels

00:15:43   nothing else had and at a time in the early 2000s when nobody had unlimited data plans

00:15:50   on their cell phones in their pockets that could play streaming services.

00:15:54   And of course after that then Howard Stern came on and that made a huge difference and

00:15:57   Now there's some exclusive talk shows

00:15:59   that have big audiences as well,

00:16:01   but for the most part, I see no future for satellite radio.

00:16:05   I think satellite radio is dead.

00:16:07   I think it'll be interesting to see what happens

00:16:09   to Sirius when Howard leaves

00:16:10   to see how much of an impact he has,

00:16:12   'cause one of the problems with satellite radio

00:16:14   is that they can't tell who's listening to what.

00:16:15   So they can't tell how many of their customers

00:16:18   are listening to Howard Stern over the air

00:16:20   versus other shows, who knows?

00:16:21   But anyway, it'll be interesting to see what happens

00:16:24   when his contract is up this fall

00:16:25   and he has to decide to stay or go somewhere else in it.

00:16:28   Sure, sounds like from his comments, he's not gonna stay,

00:16:30   so we'll see what happens.

00:16:32   I've heard a few people suggest that maybe Apple

00:16:35   would hire him to do like a Beats 2 and it's all talk.

00:16:38   I don't see that happening at all,

00:16:40   just because I don't see Apple wanting his,

00:16:44   basically his profanity and dirtiness,

00:16:46   and I don't see him wanting to do a show without it.

00:16:49   - I won't even let any porn in the App Store.

00:16:51   I think I ended up at Howard Stern on their radio station.

00:16:54   - So going back to the original point,

00:16:55   Radio is horrible in America.

00:16:58   Sirius XM is horrible.

00:17:00   And so Beats 1 being like DJs that are talented

00:17:05   at being DJs playing good music,

00:17:08   that is actually novel again.

00:17:10   Because we haven't had that for a very long time in America.

00:17:13   So that's why it was such a big deal to us last year

00:17:15   or last week rather, sorry.

00:17:17   And if the rest of the world,

00:17:20   if you have great radio stations on just broadcast,

00:17:24   That's great, congratulations, enjoy them while you can,

00:17:27   enjoy them while they're there.

00:17:28   We haven't had them in a very long time.

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00:20:45   - All right, so we had kind of teased this last week

00:20:50   and we should probably talk about it this week.

00:20:52   Jon, is Safari the new IE?

00:20:55   - Somebody says it is or sort of says it is.

00:20:59   - And then sort of retracted it, but it's all right.

00:21:01   He seems like a good guy, so I don't know.

00:21:04   I sympathize with somebody writing a rant

00:21:08   and then it being spread way more than you think it should

00:21:11   or that you expected and then you have to deal

00:21:13   with all the like, oh, wait a minute,

00:21:15   Maybe I didn't actually, you know, mean that as severely as I said, or people are taking

00:21:20   the wrong idea from it.

00:21:21   Yeah, I sympathize with that a little bit.

00:21:23   Really?

00:21:24   So this is Nolan Lawson, the person we're talking about here.

00:21:26   He wrote a thing called "Safaris the New", i.e. it was republished or whatever by Ars

00:21:33   Technica but he's got it on his own site as well.

00:21:34   It was syndicated, John.

00:21:36   Is that what it was?

00:21:37   I don't understand.

00:21:38   I first read it on Ars, but yeah, somehow it appeared in multiple places.

00:21:41   Yeah, I like Ars, but I refuse to link to a syndicated version of the post.

00:21:44   We're gonna link to the original one.

00:21:45   - But did it, like the whole thing was there though.

00:21:47   So I'm assuming they asked him, hey, can we?

00:21:49   - Yeah, yeah, it was with permission.

00:21:51   Like, you know, that's just the whole,

00:21:53   like every time I write an article that spreads anywhere,

00:21:56   I get a handful of big sites saying,

00:21:59   hey, we'd love to syndicate your article to our audience.

00:22:01   And I've agreed a couple of times in the past.

00:22:03   You know what it got me?

00:22:04   Nothing.

00:22:05   Every time I did it, it got me nothing.

00:22:08   All it did was dilute the value of my original article,

00:22:10   compete for it in search results,

00:22:12   and make my site look worse to Google

00:22:14   because now I have duplicate content.

00:22:15   It looks like I stole it from Ars Technica.

00:22:17   It just, ugh. - Nice.

00:22:18   - Yeah, it was, and it wasn't actually ours

00:22:21   that I'd done it with in the past,

00:22:22   so I won't blame them specifically,

00:22:24   but it just never worked out well for me as the author.

00:22:27   It doesn't really, it helps the site that syndicates it

00:22:30   because they get content for free.

00:22:32   It doesn't really help you, the author,

00:22:34   in a meaningful way.

00:22:35   Anyway, so the gist of this article is,

00:22:40   Anand Lawson is a web developer,

00:22:43   and he said himself that he is an Android user

00:22:45   and an enthusiastic web developer,

00:22:47   and he contributes to a bunch of web standard stuff.

00:22:50   And he's very upset and frustrated with Apple

00:22:54   for, in general, two major things.

00:22:57   One, of kind of lagging behind implementing

00:23:00   new web standards as they come out,

00:23:02   and especially some of the more advanced,

00:23:03   recent stuff involving things like local databases,

00:23:06   local storage, and device access, stuff like that.

00:23:09   And secondly, he's frustrated with them

00:23:12   for not being visible active participants

00:23:15   in the web development community

00:23:18   and the conferences and stuff that he goes to

00:23:20   as a developer, and he thinks they need to be.

00:23:23   So I don't know, I mean, we are all current

00:23:26   or past web developers.

00:23:28   What do you guys think of this?

00:23:31   - I felt like it was reasonable for him to be embittered

00:23:35   that Apple wasn't really participating in this conference.

00:23:40   I'm going on the assumption, not knowing any better,

00:23:43   that this conference was important

00:23:45   and it wasn't like the Richmond, Virginia

00:23:47   Web Developers Conference, woo, you know, whatever.

00:23:50   I don't even recall what it was,

00:23:51   but I'm going on faith that the conference was one

00:23:54   that it would be appropriate for Apple to appear at.

00:23:57   I understand that Apple doesn't usually like

00:24:01   to show its hand.

00:24:03   I understand that this is not usually Apple's style.

00:24:07   I don't think it's unreasonable for someone who is into the "open web" to say, "Hey, it's

00:24:14   kind of BS that Apple wasn't there."

00:24:16   I don't think that's—I don't take any issue with that.

00:24:20   I do think he got a little bit aggressive saying Safari's the new IE.

00:24:25   And the way I read the original article was that he was bitter that his favorite new features

00:24:32   of the web, or his favorite, I don't know, new technologies, Apple doesn't seem to be

00:24:39   supporting, and he seemed like he was pretty grumpy about that. I don't think that was

00:24:42   really necessary, but like you said, Marco, sometimes you're just fired up about stuff,

00:24:47   and you get a little aggressive, and you really kind of regret it afterwards.

00:24:49   Yeah, and it's important that, you know, he did write this follow-up piece, and he addresses

00:24:54   many of the common criticisms head-on, and elaborates a little bit more, and does kind

00:24:58   of retract some of the severity of his original post, and he's, and, you know, he talks about

00:25:01   the title like, you know, Safari is the new IE

00:25:04   is a really catchy title, it's, you know,

00:25:06   some people accused him of being link baity,

00:25:08   it sounds like that wasn't really his intent,

00:25:10   but you know, it doesn't matter.

00:25:11   I think we can move past that analogy

00:25:13   because that is irrelevant 'cause it's really not accurate

00:25:15   and you know, we were all around developing

00:25:17   for the old IEs that were really bad.

00:25:19   I mean, the new IEs are glorious compared to the old ones

00:25:23   and they're still not quite right

00:25:25   but they're much closer now than they used to be

00:25:27   And it is impossible to understate

00:25:32   how much of a pain it was to develop

00:25:35   any kind of advanced web layout,

00:25:37   or even any kind of simple web layout, honestly,

00:25:39   any kind of web layout in like 2006,

00:25:42   when there was all this great stuff moving forward

00:25:45   and you had to still support these terrible versions of IE

00:25:48   that broke everything in such big ways.

00:25:51   It was so much worse back then, believe me.

00:25:54   So this is not, yeah, that was not a fair analogy,

00:25:57   but I think we can move past that as, you know,

00:25:59   that's not really the point.

00:26:01   - Well, I think there is something to that.

00:26:02   The reason why he picked that title.

00:26:04   Part of it could be, as you said,

00:26:05   like looking at this picture here,

00:26:06   maybe he's young enough that he didn't live through

00:26:08   the dark times and doesn't understand

00:26:10   exactly how grim the situation was when, like,

00:26:14   I remember not being able to set the font with CSS in IE.

00:26:17   Like, it was like, seriously?

00:26:19   Like, I can't style text.

00:26:20   Like, forget about layout.

00:26:21   Forget about the frigging box model.

00:26:23   Forget about, like, I just want to style text.

00:26:26   And back in the bad old days, IE5 could do it on the Mac,

00:26:29   but no other version of IE could do it.

00:26:32   So yeah, so there's obviously not in terms of severity.

00:26:34   But why would he pick this title?

00:26:36   The frustration he's feeling as a web developer--

00:26:38   and by the way, it's still true of current IEs,

00:26:40   even though they're so much better,

00:26:42   I still think IE is the new IE.

00:26:44   [LAUGHTER]

00:26:46   And what I mean by that is you want

00:26:49   to do something on the web.

00:26:51   And when you do anything on the web,

00:26:53   it's not like Android fragmentation

00:26:55   where you have to make 10 different versions,

00:26:56   sometimes it's just certain things you can't do

00:26:58   because you know X percentage of your users

00:27:00   are using a particular browser.

00:27:01   And if X is big, if X is even just like high,

00:27:05   single digit percentages, it's like, well, we can't do that

00:27:07   because what are you gonna say?

00:27:08   Screw you to that 5% of our users.

00:27:10   If you've got a lot of users, 5% has a lot of people.

00:27:12   Like no one is going to agree to that.

00:27:14   And so, oh, I wish I could use this thing,

00:27:16   but 5% of my users are still in IE8

00:27:19   and IE8 has a limit on the number of selectors in CSS.

00:27:22   And we either split up our CSS files into multiple files

00:27:24   or we don't use like, whatever,

00:27:26   like there's always some stupid limitation

00:27:29   for some technology you wanna use.

00:27:30   And there's always one browser that is like,

00:27:34   that is the one like when you say,

00:27:36   "Hey, I wish we could do this."

00:27:37   And then you try it in all the browsers

00:27:39   and this is the one that's like,

00:27:40   "Oh, it's supported everywhere, but at this one."

00:27:42   And again, I think IE is still that browser,

00:27:44   mostly in terms of not so much features,

00:27:45   but performance these days,

00:27:47   like a lot of times things that are reasonably fast

00:27:49   and all the WebKit-based browsers

00:27:51   are still not as fast in IE.

00:27:53   Again, IE is getting much better really fast,

00:27:55   so it is not the bad IE that it used to,

00:27:58   but it's still catching up.

00:27:59   But the techs that Nolan was talking about

00:28:02   are new things like Shadow DOM and web components

00:28:06   and service workers and things that give new capabilities.

00:28:11   A lot of them are sort of app related

00:28:13   and a lot of the focus on this article has been like,

00:28:15   oh, he wants to write things that are like native apps

00:28:18   but using web technologies.

00:28:19   But I think that's actually besides the point.

00:28:21   I think it's really, there's a bunch of new web technologies

00:28:23   And it's like, okay, well, what modern browsers

00:28:27   can I use this tech with?

00:28:29   And he points to the site caniuse.com,

00:28:31   which gives you nice grids of what browsers support

00:28:34   which thing, and for a surprising number

00:28:37   of these new things, Safari is the one

00:28:40   that's lagging behind, lagging behind Chrome even,

00:28:42   which used to be WebKit-based and now is based on Blink.

00:28:45   And even IE has implemented some of these things

00:28:51   more than Safari has.

00:28:52   And so if you are a web developer

00:28:53   and every time you wanna do something cool,

00:28:55   you are stopped because either mobile Safari

00:28:58   or desktop Safari, probably mobile Safari

00:29:00   because probably few people care about desktop Safari.

00:29:02   But anyway, if every time you go through this exercise,

00:29:06   you start seeing Safari as the one stopping you

00:29:08   and Safari has this historical reputation

00:29:11   as a good standards compliant browser.

00:29:13   You know, WebKit is great, everyone loves WebKit.

00:29:15   Like it's the good web rendering engine, right?

00:29:18   You start to feel like Safari is the one stopping you

00:29:22   from doing what you wanna do on the web.

00:29:24   And I think it is separate from,

00:29:26   do you wanna make apps or whatever,

00:29:28   like you wanna use IndexedDB and local storage

00:29:30   and all this stuff.

00:29:31   Even stuff like Shadow DOM has almost nothing

00:29:32   to do with apps.

00:29:33   Just has to do with having a sane way

00:29:35   to plop in some content on another page

00:29:37   and not have to fight the cascade of CSS.

00:29:40   Like web components and Shadow DOM,

00:29:42   stuff like these are good technologies

00:29:44   that are just beneficial to the web period,

00:29:46   having nothing to do with making web things like apps.

00:29:49   and Safari is behind on a lot of these.

00:29:53   And the other part of it that Casey was mentioning

00:29:57   is like, well, are they really behind

00:29:59   or had they just not announced the support?

00:30:00   Like is the next major version of Safari gonna come out

00:30:03   and have support for all these things?

00:30:04   'Cause when new versions of Safari come out,

00:30:06   tons of stuff is in it.

00:30:08   And you don't hear about the stuff until it comes out,

00:30:09   which is different than the model

00:30:11   that the other browser makers do.

00:30:12   So in these web conferences,

00:30:14   when all the other browser makers

00:30:15   are showing off their cool things,

00:30:17   Apple's not there because Apple doesn't go

00:30:18   at any conferences, Apple goes to WWDC, right?

00:30:20   They don't, they tend not to show up at other places,

00:30:24   or at least not in a public way.

00:30:26   And so it feels like they're not participating

00:30:27   in the community.

00:30:28   So that combined with the fact that Safari is behind

00:30:30   on a lot of these things, makes you feel like the thing,

00:30:35   the browser that's stopping you from doing what you wanna do

00:30:38   is Safari, just like the browser that used to stop you

00:30:40   from doing what you didn't wanna do with IE.

00:30:42   And in terms of degree, it's, you know, world's different,

00:30:45   because again, people don't realize how bad it was

00:30:48   during the time when IE A sucked

00:30:50   and B was not getting any better.

00:30:51   Safari does not suck and is getting better.

00:30:55   It's just possibly getting better,

00:30:56   slightly slower in these specific areas

00:30:58   that web developers care about

00:31:00   in terms of this browser has support for this thing,

00:31:02   this browser has support, oh, Safari doesn't, nevermind.

00:31:05   And then that also spirals into like,

00:31:07   why can't I have other web rendering engines on iOS

00:31:10   and all sorts of other things?

00:31:11   But I think the kernel of truth behind the title

00:31:13   is that this web developer feels like every time

00:31:16   wants to use a new technology, Safari is the browser that's stopping him because Safari

00:31:20   is on the list of browsers that he cares about and has to support, but doesn't have this

00:31:25   new tech.

00:31:26   Well, I think it's even more specific than that.

00:31:30   I think it's that he's trying to make, and he elaborates a lot more on the follow-up,

00:31:35   like he believes, and this is not just him, this is a very widespread belief, that app

00:31:41   - App development, like native app development is,

00:31:44   you know, one thing and it's kind of a bad thing,

00:31:47   it's kind of inefficient, and that the way forward

00:31:50   for mobile is to just write really advanced web apps

00:31:54   and to have one web app that you write

00:31:56   that runs on all mobile platforms,

00:31:58   and that way you don't have to write native apps.

00:32:00   That is seemingly his main goal or position here

00:32:05   is like that is the end goal, that is the ideal.

00:32:09   And so what he's really talking about is,

00:32:12   iOS is holding him back.

00:32:14   It's really, it's 1000% about iOS Safari

00:32:18   and not about desktop really.

00:32:20   It's about iOS Safari and iOS Safari being

00:32:23   the only built-in thing that you can use on iOS devices,

00:32:26   which are kind of popular.

00:32:27   And he wants to write an app that can run on Android

00:32:31   and iOS by making it a web app.

00:32:33   And he wants that app to have basically

00:32:37   all the same abilities and quality and performance

00:32:40   and everything as native apps.

00:32:42   And that is extremely common among a pretty large segment

00:32:46   of web developers to have that goal and that position

00:32:48   and those priorities in mind, but I really don't think

00:32:52   those are Apple's priorities.

00:32:53   And I mean, I have a whole lot to say about standards

00:32:57   and standards people, but maybe I'll save that.

00:33:00   But just because that is what all these people

00:33:04   are pushing for does not mean that either

00:33:08   that's what users care about

00:33:10   or that's what Apple wants to enable.

00:33:13   There's lots of downsides to that.

00:33:15   Like one of the things he cites in his blog post,

00:33:18   in the second post, he's talking about,

00:33:20   he said, you know, just one of many examples,

00:33:22   he says there's a problem using

00:33:24   this local database interface, which forgive me,

00:33:27   I have not followed this stuff,

00:33:29   so I don't know what is possible, what is not,

00:33:31   and what the limits are.

00:33:32   but there is, he mentions how this local database thing

00:33:37   he's using local storage and iOS for websites,

00:33:41   for web apps is capped at 50 megs

00:33:44   and then it'll ask the user to confirm

00:33:46   that they wanted to go past five megs

00:33:48   once they passed five megs.

00:33:50   And he's saying this is really a problem

00:33:53   for making native apps, which makes sense.

00:33:54   Like if you're trying to store a whole bunch of data

00:33:56   natively in a web app and you're limited to five megs

00:34:00   without asking and then 50 megs total even after asking,

00:34:03   that is quite limiting for that purpose.

00:34:04   But from Apple's point of view,

00:34:07   they already offer a way to make apps.

00:34:08   It's called native apps and they don't have

00:34:11   those storage limitations and I can see why,

00:34:16   and I don't know if this is why this limit's in place

00:34:18   or whether they just haven't gotten around to it yet,

00:34:20   but I can see why they would look at this request

00:34:23   to basically let WebPig just store arbitrary amounts of data

00:34:26   or whatever they want and you could see why

00:34:29   that could be a problem.

00:34:30   'Cause one part of App Review

00:34:32   that occasionally causes controversial issues

00:34:35   is they actually have storage rules on how you use storage.

00:34:39   And you have to mark your files as backup

00:34:43   versus not backup properly.

00:34:45   You can't just like download excessive amounts of data

00:34:48   or store excessive amounts of data without a good reason.

00:34:52   And storage management on iOS is all about per app controls.

00:34:57   So you can go to the general usage thing,

00:34:59   which still isn't great, but you can go there

00:35:01   and you can see, oh, I'm out of space,

00:35:02   what apps are using the most,

00:35:04   and Apple gives you these controls to say,

00:35:06   all right, well, here's your list of apps,

00:35:08   here's the storage they're using,

00:35:09   you can delete or make choices based on that.

00:35:13   So there's all this baggage that comes along

00:35:16   with the ability to use lots of storage space on a device.

00:35:19   And when you're enabling web technology

00:35:23   and web capabilities,

00:35:25   you have to be much more conservative

00:35:27   and much more limiting for many good reasons.

00:35:31   Performance, battery life,

00:35:32   but also security and usability.

00:35:35   And many of these features,

00:35:37   like modern web standards,

00:35:39   are going way beyond what quote web standards meant

00:35:44   10 years ago.

00:35:45   10 years ago, it was really talking about

00:35:47   how a page would be laid out

00:35:49   and different capabilities you'd have with CSS

00:35:51   and a little bit of JavaScript.

00:35:54   That's really what web standards were about.

00:35:55   So back then, the idea was,

00:35:58   let's fix all the garbage we did in the past,

00:36:00   make things better for layout,

00:36:03   and enable a few small things in JavaScript,

00:36:06   and let's make it so that we only have to make

00:36:08   one set of markup and blah, blah, blah.

00:36:09   So back then, that made perfect sense.

00:36:12   Back then, it was very defensible.

00:36:13   And it wasn't, by the way,

00:36:15   it wasn't some perfectly clean thing

00:36:17   that just happened all of a sudden

00:36:18   and everyone was on board.

00:36:19   That took years to hammer out,

00:36:21   and took years before that stuff was remotely usable.

00:36:25   But back then, it was a much simpler thing.

00:36:29   It was all about how does the page render?

00:36:32   Now, what many of these standards are demanding

00:36:35   or creating or requesting is much harder things

00:36:40   to make performant and secure and good for users.

00:36:45   And so things like spawning background processes,

00:36:49   having any kind of native hardware access

00:36:51   or like compiled code access, any kind of interaction

00:36:55   where you can break out of the browser.

00:36:56   So things like notifications,

00:36:58   access to the hardware, sensors, vibrations,

00:37:00   stuff like that.

00:37:01   Now, so many of these new standards

00:37:03   are breaking out of the page that is rendered

00:37:07   and doing way more advanced stuff.

00:37:09   Stuff that is usually only the realm of native apps,

00:37:13   at least in the past,

00:37:14   has only been the realm of native apps.

00:37:15   So especially on iOS, where Apple's very careful

00:37:18   about these things for very good reasons,

00:37:20   I can totally see why they would not only move slowly,

00:37:25   but also say no to some things.

00:37:27   Because that actually, if they actually let every web app

00:37:31   create 500 megabyte large databases

00:37:35   that are not under app review

00:37:37   and can do basically whatever they want

00:37:39   and it's hard for people to find and delete that storage,

00:37:42   that's a problem.

00:37:44   You have to, with any capability that Apple adds to WebKit

00:37:50   and the web engine in Mobile Safari,

00:37:52   they have to assume the worst.

00:37:54   Like, assume, like, what is the worst possible people,

00:37:58   what are the worst possible people gonna do with this

00:38:00   on like some ad network that's embedded

00:38:02   on every single webpage or something?

00:38:04   Like, there are so many ramifications,

00:38:06   there's privacy, there's battery,

00:38:08   there's usability, there's speed,

00:38:09   I mean, so many considerations there

00:38:11   that it is totally completely reasonable

00:38:16   that Apple would both move slowly

00:38:19   and say no to some things.

00:38:21   - I don't know, I think that limiting web technologies

00:38:24   to only things that show pages

00:38:26   and not allowing app-like things is short-sighted

00:38:28   because there's a lot of things that web applications

00:38:32   are doing today that are crappier

00:38:34   because of lack of progress in standards.

00:38:37   I mean, even just like sort of the modern way

00:38:39   of writing web applications

00:38:40   where a lot of it happens client-side

00:38:42   where they're essentially JavaScript applications

00:38:45   that execute on the client,

00:38:47   which is better than them executing the server,

00:38:48   fewer round trips and the client has faster CPU dedicated just to you and all

00:38:52   this other stuff. But still served up by loading a page that gives you this

00:38:58   gigantic wad of JavaScript that may be minified and obfuscated and then gzipped

00:39:02   and then you bring it back to the browser and of course the browser has to

00:39:04   compile it every time even if it has a cached version doesn't cache the compiled

00:39:07   copy and then that takes time. Sometimes just you burn milliseconds just

00:39:12   parsing and lexing and compiling the JavaScript before you even start

00:39:16   executing it. And that's the type of crap that makes just plain old web pages feel slower.

00:39:22   It adds latency to everything. That's kind of like the WebAssembly stuff that's going

00:39:27   on now. That's why I've always kind of been rooting for something like Dart but better,

00:39:32   or like Swift in the browser, or something like that. People are doing things with current

00:39:36   technologies that are making the web experience worse for users. And there are advances in

00:39:45   in those areas that are sort of separate from the,

00:39:48   like you were talking about it,

00:39:49   like, oh, well you just give web developers

00:39:51   free reign of your hardware

00:39:52   and let them store tons of data or whatever.

00:39:54   Just, you know, even like I said,

00:39:55   just shadow DOM and web components.

00:39:57   That's not, there's nothing nasty anyone can do with that.

00:39:59   And in fact, that enables technologies that allow you

00:40:02   to have sort of reusable components

00:40:04   that are more isolated from each other,

00:40:05   that don't have access to other parts of the pages

00:40:07   that are separate, that make web development easier,

00:40:10   just to kind of like do the things we're doing now,

00:40:13   but technologies to do them better.

00:40:15   And it's not as if Apple isn't pursuing these.

00:40:17   Like if you talk about the web standards stuff,

00:40:18   Apple is and has been for many years

00:40:21   an active participant at W3C.

00:40:23   Like they have an opinion on what you should use

00:40:26   for like serving up written images, for example.

00:40:29   Apple is a heavy participant in that thing.

00:40:31   The Canvas tag basically comes from Apple.

00:40:34   They do care about web standards

00:40:36   and they have that position and they push their things

00:40:38   and so does Microsoft and all the other participants

00:40:40   in the web standards process.

00:40:42   It's just that in the grand scheme of things,

00:40:45   if you had to rank the browser vendors

00:40:47   about how aggressive they are at pursuing standards,

00:40:50   for the most part,

00:40:51   the other browsers are more aggressive than Apple

00:40:55   and partly because they kind of have to be

00:40:57   because what would Firefox's claim to fame be

00:41:00   if it was both less popular

00:41:02   and less technologically advanced than Safari

00:41:06   and kind of the same thing for IE,

00:41:08   which is trying to like refurbish its reputation

00:41:11   as the browser that doesn't implement anything,

00:41:12   so they're gung-ho to jump on top of whatever they can.

00:41:16   And Google, of course,

00:41:16   which is everything it does is a web app.

00:41:18   So, you know, they,

00:41:20   I'll put a link in the show notes

00:41:21   to my code harder go home thing,

00:41:23   which was talking about why it was kind of natural

00:41:26   for Google to go its own way with WebKit,

00:41:28   because they were just,

00:41:28   they were driving the development to a large extent,

00:41:32   and they wanted things, and they wanted things now,

00:41:34   and they didn't want to be held back

00:41:35   by sort of Apple's more cautious release schedule.

00:41:40   So I think the frustration that all web developers feel

00:41:44   about whatever the browser is that's not letting them

00:41:46   do the thing they wanna do is real,

00:41:48   but I don't know what the solution is

00:41:51   because it's not as if, you know,

00:41:53   all this frustration can be real

00:41:55   and this position can be justified

00:41:57   from the point of view of a web developer,

00:41:59   but I don't think any of it is compelling in any way

00:42:01   for Apple to change what it's doing

00:42:02   because then you just flip around and say,

00:42:03   well, what is Apple's perspective?

00:42:04   What do they care about?

00:42:05   What role do they see the web browser taking?

00:42:07   What things are important to them?

00:42:09   And a couple of people like sort of countering this article

00:42:13   saying basically Safari is not that bad.

00:42:14   Take a look at this.

00:42:15   There was one showing the CSS for selector support

00:42:18   with WebKit Nightly has like 53% support.

00:42:21   And the closest one is the Chrome Canary at 32%

00:42:23   and everything tails off from there.

00:42:25   Apple has always cared a lot about CSS.

00:42:27   There was someone showing like a CSS spinner

00:42:30   just showing like a little shape spinning around with CSS,

00:42:32   looking at the CPU usage.

00:42:34   If you just let that thing spin, Safari CPU usage is zero.

00:42:38   Firefox is 23%, Chrome is 20%, this is on OS 10, not on iOS.

00:42:43   Apple has always cared about power efficiency,

00:42:44   so they want to do as many things as possible

00:42:47   in an efficient manner.

00:42:48   They emphasize a lot of the past couple WWCs of,

00:42:52   what should Safari or WebKit be doing

00:42:57   when a page is just open in the browser

00:43:00   but you're not looking at it?

00:43:01   Or like, how is Safari not killing your CPU

00:43:04   and waking it up every few milliseconds

00:43:05   to animate some stupid JavaScript thing?

00:43:07   How is it maintaining responsiveness,

00:43:09   but not killing your CPU?

00:43:10   Those are the things that Apple is concentrating on.

00:43:12   They're spending a lot of engineering effort

00:43:13   on things that are important to Apple for its platform.

00:43:17   And I don't think web developers complaining

00:43:20   that they can't use particular technologies

00:43:22   are going to convince Apple

00:43:23   to add those technologies any faster,

00:43:24   because there's no sort of meeting of the minds here.

00:43:27   There's no sort of like,

00:43:29   let me tell you why this would be better for you, Apple.

00:43:31   That's why you should do it.

00:43:32   All it is is just saying it would be better for me.

00:43:34   And Apple's like, well, it would be better for us

00:43:36   if you wrote native apps.

00:43:37   And so they just stand there with their arms folded

00:43:38   and say, well, I'm not gonna run native apps.

00:43:40   And Apple's like, well, I'm not gonna add that thing.

00:43:43   We're adding the things that are running.

00:43:44   Like the Safari team at Apple adds stuff all the time.

00:43:47   I'm always amazed when the new version of Safari comes out,

00:43:49   how much stuff is in it.

00:43:51   It's just not necessarily the things that you would want

00:43:53   if your goal is to be a web developer.

00:43:56   I do worry a little bit about Apple kind of falling behind

00:44:00   the other browser vendors to the point where it really is

00:44:02   the next IE in terms of standard support,

00:44:04   when like everybody else has had support for,

00:44:08   say index DB catches on

00:44:09   and it becomes like a big awesome thing

00:44:11   and everyone has it.

00:44:12   And everyone has had it for five years

00:44:14   and Apple still doesn't have support for it.

00:44:15   At a certain point kind of the web community

00:44:19   sort of votes with their implementations.

00:44:22   Just what happened with IE.

00:44:24   It's like, well, I can't do that 'cause IE doesn't have it.

00:44:25   Eventually the web community was like,

00:44:26   you know what, I'm using CSS.

00:44:30   The standard was released in 1996.

00:44:33   I'm gonna use it.

00:44:34   the only way I'm gonna style text on my site is CSS.

00:44:36   Screw IE, like the web community voted, they said,

00:44:39   even though the version of IE

00:44:40   that some huge percentage of my users are using

00:44:43   does not support this feature,

00:44:44   I'm still going to write my website in it.

00:44:46   And when an IE user complains,

00:44:47   I'm gonna say, you know what, screw you.

00:44:49   Like that can eventually happen.

00:44:51   You don't want Apple to ever get in the situation

00:44:53   where they are the only ones refusing to implement

00:44:55   some particular standard

00:44:56   because it doesn't fit with their strategy.

00:44:58   And that the wider community of web developers

00:45:01   votes with their keyboards and says,

00:45:04   Well, fine Apple, don't support it.

00:45:06   We're writing web apps with it.

00:45:07   Everyone who comes in here on mobile so far

00:45:08   is gonna see a big thing that says,

00:45:10   sorry, get yourself a modern browser.

00:45:12   Like that's the doomsday scenario.

00:45:13   We are far from that today, very far from it

00:45:15   because most of these standards they're talking about

00:45:17   are barely implemented in the other browsers

00:45:19   and are super buggy everywhere.

00:45:20   No one would write any app with it, right?

00:45:22   But I do worry about that happening

00:45:26   simply because Apple's priority seems so different

00:45:29   than the priorities of pretty much every other company

00:45:32   that makes a web browser.

00:45:33   even Microsoft at this point,

00:45:34   which maybe we'll talk about their difficulties

00:45:38   with their own native platforms

00:45:39   and how the web may become more important to them

00:45:42   as they go forward in the same way

00:45:43   that the web was kind of the savior of Apple.

00:45:45   Macs were saved from being completely irrelevant

00:45:49   because, well, everybody can use the web

00:45:50   and once the Macs could use the web,

00:45:52   that gave them an extension on their lifeline

00:45:55   and it gave Apple time to sort of come back from the brink.

00:45:58   Right, that could be the situation

00:45:59   that Microsoft's going through now.

00:46:00   So even though, yes, this article is sensational,

00:46:03   and it's sort of, it is stating one position,

00:46:08   but it is not particularly compelling Apple

00:46:11   to change what it's doing, I do worry about

00:46:14   the sort of kernel of truth underlying this dissatisfaction.

00:46:18   - And that's certainly fair, but I think, you know,

00:46:20   if this does continue to get worse to the point

00:46:25   where it's a big problem that Apple doesn't support

00:46:27   things other people do, the market will sort that out.

00:46:29   Like, you know, as you said, like, you know,

00:46:31   if somebody puts up the doomsday page and say,

00:46:32   "Well, sorry, are this cool app that everyone wants to use

00:46:36   "just doesn't work on Safari?"

00:46:38   Then Apple will, you know, if that truly succeeds,

00:46:41   then Apple will be forced to respond

00:46:43   and to respond or to lose all of our business

00:46:46   or to lose our browser.

00:46:48   And that's fine, but I think one of the problems with this

00:46:51   is what you said earlier, like, you know,

00:46:53   what's Apple's motivation here?

00:46:55   Like the goal of having web apps replace native apps,

00:47:00   that is something that web developers are clamoring for.

00:47:06   But are users clamoring for it?

00:47:08   Are native app developers clamoring for it?

00:47:11   Like it seems like this is the kind of thing

00:47:14   that web developers are all saying,

00:47:16   in order for us to keep doing things the way we like best,

00:47:19   we need these things to make us relevant in this world

00:47:22   that right now we kinda aren't first-class citizens in.

00:47:27   But that world and the people who use it

00:47:30   don't have that problem.

00:47:31   Like me, as a native app developer

00:47:35   and as a user of native apps on my phone,

00:47:40   I don't have the problem of my web apps can't do enough.

00:47:44   Like that is not a problem I have.

00:47:45   - But you know, you do have that.

00:47:47   Like web developers obviously have the problem.

00:47:48   Users have it too, because why users have that problem

00:47:51   is that developers have to, companies that have a software

00:47:56   product or service have to make multiple different native apps.

00:47:58   Why?

00:47:59   Because you can't make just one web app that works for everybody.

00:48:02   Or if you can't, it's crappy.

00:48:03   And that is worse for you as a user,

00:48:05   because it's them spreading their efforts

00:48:08   over several proprietary platforms.

00:48:10   The open web is good for users.

00:48:12   So it's bad for users, I think, that you

00:48:16   can't use the open web to make an app that's

00:48:18   as good as a native app experience

00:48:19   or close enough to be good enough.

00:48:22   That's bad for users, that's also bad for developers

00:48:24   because they spend more time fighting

00:48:27   with individual proprietary platforms

00:48:29   instead of the open web.

00:48:29   The open web is good for pretty much everybody

00:48:32   except for big companies, right?

00:48:33   And so there is this constant effort

00:48:35   to try to make the open web better.

00:48:37   As you know, native platforms are getting better

00:48:39   all the time.

00:48:40   Companies are highly motivated

00:48:42   to make the native platforms better.

00:48:44   They're also motivated to make their web browsers better.

00:48:47   They're always working hard to make Safari run faster,

00:48:49   pages load faster, which is why I think Apple could actually

00:48:53   do well to be more aggressive on the things that just simply

00:48:55   let you get your JavaScript loaded and cached

00:48:58   and precompiled faster than we're currently doing

00:49:01   and stuff like that.

00:49:02   But yeah, I think the open web is a benefit

00:49:04   to both developers and users, and it's only a detriment

00:49:07   to companies with proprietary platforms.

00:49:09   And so we're kind of in this catch-22.

00:49:10   It's like, well, it's actually not really good for users

00:49:13   because if they could make a web app, everybody would suck.

00:49:15   And then the web developers are like, yeah,

00:49:16   but we want it not to suck.

00:49:17   And so what happens first?

00:49:19   Do you make it not suck first or do you implement it

00:49:21   but then it still sucks but then everybody does it

00:49:23   and native apps are still better.

00:49:24   Like it's a difficult situation for everybody involved

00:49:27   but I think it's wrong to say

00:49:29   that there's no benefit for users.

00:49:30   It definitely, it's the same thing you've talked about

00:49:32   many times before about proprietary systems

00:49:35   owned and controlled by one company like Twitter

00:49:38   versus an open alternative.

00:49:40   The open web is an important thing to preserve

00:49:42   and continue to enhance.

00:49:44   And there's always gonna,

00:49:47   I mean, I don't know if there's always gonna be a gap

00:49:48   There's currently a gap, and I would like that gap

00:49:50   to be narrower, and I think narrowing that gap

00:49:53   between native and the open web would be good

00:49:55   for everybody except the possible exception

00:49:57   of companies like Apple and Microsoft.

00:50:00   - I mean, in general I agree, but I do wanna clarify

00:50:02   that my position is not that there is no user benefit.

00:50:06   My position is that there's too little user demand.

00:50:08   - Well, that's it, it's the catch-22.

00:50:10   Why would they demand a crappier app?

00:50:11   Like, they want, you know, they don't know.

00:50:14   It's not like they're demanding a web app,

00:50:16   because they're like, oh, when I use the web app,

00:50:17   So if I want to use the native one, the native one is better, right?

00:50:19   So it's something that they would benefit from, the users would benefit from, but they

00:50:24   don't know enough to ask for it.

00:50:25   In the same way that users wouldn't know enough to ask for a language like Swift.

00:50:28   They don't know what causes bugs, and if there was a better, different programming language,

00:50:33   it would cause fewer of those bugs and help develop.

00:50:36   That's not a user concern, but they reap the benefits of it.

00:50:39   Users don't know what technologies developers need to have to make their lives better.

00:50:44   And they're not going to even connect back to the fact that it takes twice as long to

00:50:47   get something, especially if you're on a lesser platform.

00:50:50   Like if you're on a platform that isn't...

00:50:51   If you have a Windows phone, maybe you feel this more acutely, then hey, there's a version

00:50:56   of this app for iOS.

00:50:57   And they said they're making an Android version, but they don't even mention the words Windows

00:51:00   phone.

00:51:02   But I guess I can use this webpage that we can all use, right?

00:51:06   Again, Mac users have been in that position where there were Windows versions of everything

00:51:10   they wanted, and a Mac version maybe was mentioned once or maybe never mentioned.

00:51:14   - We didn't even get Half Life for crying out loud.

00:51:16   We still don't have Half Life.

00:51:18   (laughing)

00:51:19   - Well but, and that's part of the problem here

00:51:21   is like the argument for web developers

00:51:23   making web apps being like the way forward

00:51:26   for all mobile platforms would be a much stronger argument

00:51:29   if there were more than two that mattered.

00:51:31   But there aren't.

00:51:32   And it's not, and most like companies

00:51:35   and startups and everything that have an app,

00:51:38   you can get away just fine making either just iOS

00:51:42   or iOS and Android?

00:51:44   - Well, that's a symptom though, isn't it?

00:51:45   Like, why are there only two?

00:51:46   Well, because native apps are so powerful

00:51:48   and because it's so hard to make a native app platform.

00:51:50   Like, if the open web was as powerful,

00:51:52   it would be harder for two platforms

00:51:54   to sort of dominate the entire market

00:51:55   because it would be like, well, you know,

00:51:57   we can have a diversity.

00:51:58   Like, Palm would have survived

00:52:00   if they didn't have to have their own native SDK

00:52:02   and have people write native apps

00:52:03   as the only viable way to, you know,

00:52:06   if web apps were the only apps,

00:52:08   and it's again, the same way that the Mac survived.

00:52:10   Like, why was the Mac,

00:52:11   Why did the Mac even continue to be relevant at all?

00:52:13   It's because the web became so big and it's like,

00:52:14   well, yeah, I can't have all these Windows applications,

00:52:18   but increasingly, as long as I can go to yahoo.com

00:52:20   and order books from Amazon,

00:52:21   a Mac is still a viable computer to own, right?

00:52:24   So it's, you know, it's, I don't know if catch-22

00:52:26   is the right term or chicken egg or whatever,

00:52:28   but each thing is blocking the other.

00:52:31   Like, well, it doesn't really matter

00:52:32   'cause there's only two platforms,

00:52:33   but there are only two platforms

00:52:34   because the only way to write apps is native

00:52:35   and how many native platforms can we support?

00:52:38   Like you can't have seven, even game consoles,

00:52:41   it's only ever been like three with maybe a fourth.

00:52:45   Like there's just, you can't have 17 native app platforms.

00:52:49   So you can have 17 different web browsers

00:52:53   and different devices that all can view web pages.

00:52:55   That is totally possible.

00:52:56   Then you can get into like, well, web rendering engines,

00:52:58   how many of those are there?

00:53:00   Similar number, right?

00:53:01   But web rendering engines,

00:53:02   because they're defined by standards for the most part,

00:53:04   because we've all kind of agreed

00:53:05   that you can't just make up the marquee tag

00:53:07   and just be like, that's not a winning strategy

00:53:10   to just make up your entire proprietary thing

00:53:12   like ActiveX or whatever,

00:53:13   even Java Applets didn't catch on.

00:53:14   We want it to be open, we want the open web

00:53:17   to be not controlled by a single company,

00:53:20   but if we let it languish, then all that will be left

00:53:23   is proprietary native platforms.

00:53:25   - Oh sure, and also I think it would be remiss of us

00:53:27   not to also mention that this is not the only solution

00:53:31   to this problem.

00:53:32   So if you have this environment

00:53:35   of multiple mobile platforms, although let's be honest,

00:53:38   it's really one to two that matter right now,

00:53:41   and you want to have one thing that works on all of them,

00:53:44   there's already lots of things that let you make native apps

00:53:48   using some kind of shared higher level language

00:53:50   that then gets compiled down to the native code

00:53:53   to the other platforms.

00:53:55   Those things exist, and as far as I know,

00:53:57   they do pretty well in the consulting business especially.

00:54:00   And so there are other solutions to this problem.

00:54:02   Maybe, like, you know, the web, or the internet is fine.

00:54:06   You know, all this communication between these apps

00:54:09   and to servers is all going over HTTPS,

00:54:12   and it's using the internet,

00:54:14   but it is not displaying the front end

00:54:16   in a web browser necessarily,

00:54:19   or something that resembles a web browser.

00:54:20   And so, you know, the problem of making one front end app

00:54:25   that displays your stuff for all platforms

00:54:29   could be solved with web stuff.

00:54:31   with another proprietary company,

00:54:32   offering you a solution that's on top

00:54:33   of two other proprietary companies' things,

00:54:35   that's three things that can go wrong to,

00:54:38   because-- - Yeah, but nothing ever

00:54:39   goes wrong with web browser support for things.

00:54:41   - Yeah, but I'm saying,

00:54:42   a new version of a web browser is not gonna come out

00:54:45   in the next year that is gonna break the bold tag, right?

00:54:50   Whereas if you're writing something

00:54:53   that targets a particular API,

00:54:55   produces Objective-C code for iOS

00:54:59   and produces the Java code for Android and everything,

00:55:04   there are so many things that both those platforms

00:55:06   can do unintentionally to make it so that your thing

00:55:08   that targets both platforms breaks.

00:55:11   Whereas the web comparatively is much more stable

00:55:14   because it has to be, because there's tons of web browsers

00:55:16   and tons of markup and there's no sort of single

00:55:19   controlling body in the way that there is Apple

00:55:20   where Apple can just say, well, that API is gone,

00:55:24   or we changed our ABI, or we just changed from x86 to ARM,

00:55:27   or whatever, and you're like, oh god, this thing I have

00:55:29   that's supposed to be targeting multiple platforms

00:55:30   with a single code base is now like,

00:55:33   I don't even know with a year of work if I can get it to,

00:55:36   I don't know if it's ever gonna work again,

00:55:38   or they've changed the security rules

00:55:40   so I can't even do what I was doing before,

00:55:42   or they've changed the app submission rules.

00:55:43   Like with the snap of their fingers,

00:55:46   they can totally invalidate your entire strategy

00:55:49   for deploying stuff.

00:55:50   Whereas the web does evolve, but it evolves way more slowly

00:55:52   and there's no single, it's not a point,

00:55:54   there's no single company that can say,

00:55:55   you know what, the thing that you were making

00:55:57   that makes a web app that runs on mobile

00:56:00   and desktop browsers, like next week,

00:56:02   it's not gonna work at all.

00:56:04   - Our next sponsor this week is Backblaze.

00:56:08   Now Casey, I heard that you got some interesting information

00:56:10   about Backblaze.

00:56:11   - Indeed, just a few hours ago, a listener wrote in,

00:56:15   Nick wrote, "Hey Casey and ATP guys."

00:56:17   Not really sure how that distinction happened,

00:56:19   but that's cool.

00:56:20   (laughing)

00:56:21   - Thanks.

00:56:22   - Well, in his defense, he wrote it just to me,

00:56:24   so I'm assuming that's where this came from.

00:56:26   But anyway, he wrote, "I just wanted to share an experience.

00:56:29   I'm finishing up college and have a small film company

00:56:33   that I run out of my apartment off of old Seagate hard drives."

00:56:36   Hopefully not those three terabyte ones, right?

00:56:38   Right.

00:56:39   "And I haven't had the money to upgrade until recently.

00:56:42   While waiting for my new RAID to come in in the mail,

00:56:44   both my main hard drive and backup

00:56:46   completely failed because Backblaze is so cheap,

00:56:49   I had everything up there and downloaded my project files

00:56:51   and was able to cash some checks.

00:56:53   No Backblaze, no profits.

00:56:55   Thanks so much.

00:56:56   So hear it from a listener, not only from us,

00:56:59   this stuff really works.

00:57:00   But with that said,

00:57:01   Marco will tell you a little more about it.

00:57:02   - Yeah, and honestly, we've heard from a number of people

00:57:04   over the couple years we've been doing Backblaze ads,

00:57:08   people who Backblaze saved their bacon.

00:57:10   That is not an uncommon story.

00:57:12   And it makes sense.

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00:57:17   Go to backblaze.com/atp to see for yourself.

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00:57:26   You need to have online backup.

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00:57:31   that all your files, all your memories,

00:57:34   all your documents, your photos, everything,

00:57:36   that is all safely backed up.

00:57:38   Let's say you already have a backup system.

00:57:41   Maybe you use Time Machine, maybe you use Super Duper

00:57:44   or another cloning program, maybe you use both.

00:57:46   That's great, you should, that's great.

00:57:47   Backblaze gives you that final fail safe

00:57:50   to know what if there's a flood in my house

00:57:53   and all my computer stuff that's on my desk

00:57:55   is destroyed, Casey.

00:57:56   You create mini floods all the time on your desk.

00:58:00   So what if Casey comes over and spills water

00:58:03   on your time machine drive and your computer

00:58:05   at the same time?

00:58:06   Then you're screwed unless you have something

00:58:08   somewhere else, right?

00:58:09   I highly recommend online backup for situations

00:58:12   like fires, floods, theft, Casey, power surges, anything.

00:58:16   You need something like this in your life

00:58:18   and for five bucks a month for unlimited space,

00:58:20   that's pretty hard to beat.

00:58:22   that value that you get for that

00:58:24   and that peace of mind you get for that.

00:58:26   Granted, everything I've said so far

00:58:27   applies to every online backup server for the most part.

00:58:29   What I like about Backblaze over the other ones

00:58:31   is not only have I never had any problems

00:58:34   with throttling or with limits or with bad performance

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00:58:42   Also, their app is just nicer for me.

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00:58:47   The apps aren't slow.

00:58:48   I don't hit weird limits or anything

00:58:49   because they're native good apps.

00:58:51   Backblaze respects the Mac, their app is native code,

00:58:55   it is not like, you know, Java or web technologies,

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00:59:00   They have great features too, so they have an iPhone

00:59:03   and Android app if you want, and then what you can do

00:59:05   with that, you can like restore just one file.

00:59:08   So let's say you're on a trip, and you forgot a document

00:59:11   on your home computer, and you can't get to it.

00:59:14   Go to Backblaze, log in, and you can restore one file,

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00:59:21   Stop putting off doing this.

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00:59:40   You can get a risk-free, no credit card required trial

00:59:43   by going to backblaze.com/atp.

00:59:46   Thanks a lot to Backblaze for sponsoring our show once again

00:59:49   and for just being awesome.

00:59:51   - Okay.

00:59:52   - I can't believe you're arguing

00:59:54   the proprietary side of this, Marco.

00:59:56   (laughing)

00:59:57   You're supposed to be the person who loves freedom

00:59:59   and hates Google for copying all your data into the cloud.

01:00:03   - Well, part of it is like I look at web standards

01:00:06   and standards people and I see, you know what,

01:00:09   this is all the same old bull.

01:00:11   Just now, you put the word standard on it,

01:00:13   it's like standard markdown.

01:00:15   Like, you know, you put the word standard on it

01:00:16   and it sounds like something that is like this,

01:00:19   this great purpose with this great intention,

01:00:22   this noble effort, and the reality is,

01:00:25   it's just companies having power struggles for themselves.

01:00:28   That's all it is.

01:00:29   - Yeah, but consensus is always ugly.

01:00:31   That's the whole point.

01:00:32   It's not owned and controlled by one company.

01:00:33   So you get a bunch of people arguing,

01:00:35   and they're gonna come up with something

01:00:37   that's not gonna be as pure as if one company decided.

01:00:40   But the end result is, hey, guess what?

01:00:42   No one company decided this.

01:00:44   No one company has enough pull of the W3C

01:00:47   to dictate what happens.

01:00:48   and the strengths of that and weaknesses.

01:00:52   The weaknesses are well known,

01:00:53   takes them forever to do anything.

01:00:54   Sometimes they come up with a stupid solution

01:00:55   that's a dumb compromise.

01:00:56   Doing things by committee is dumb.

01:00:58   The whole HTML5 mess with the what WG.

01:01:01   It's definitely uglier, right?

01:01:03   But the end result, no matter how crappy it may be,

01:01:06   is still not owned and controlled by a single company.

01:01:09   And that is its one shining true benefit.

01:01:11   And you have to say that for all the bumps

01:01:13   and the crappiness, over the long term,

01:01:15   where we were with HTML4, quote unquote, strict mode,

01:01:19   and where we are today, we have made progress.

01:01:22   It has definitely not been a straight line,

01:01:24   but web technologies and the things you can do

01:01:27   with web apps of all kinds, just from plain old web pages

01:01:30   up to things that act more like applications,

01:01:32   is way better now than it was a couple decades ago.

01:01:35   - Oh sure, but--

01:01:36   - So I think we're making progress,

01:01:37   and all along that progress, at no point,

01:01:40   with the exception of Microsoft trying for it,

01:01:42   has all this web crap been under the thumb

01:01:45   of a single company?

01:01:47   - That's fair, but there's also,

01:01:50   there's downsides to this,

01:01:51   and one of the downsides is,

01:01:52   like if you're a company like Apple,

01:01:54   and you have strong opinions about how things should be done,

01:01:56   which let's face it, everyone else does too,

01:01:58   but everyone else is more like a,

01:02:00   we can all agree on cheese situation,

01:02:01   where they make it sound like what they want

01:02:03   is the standard for everybody, but really it's for them.

01:02:05   But Apple is not gonna be pushed around here,

01:02:09   And if you're Apple, this could look as though like,

01:02:14   why should I let this consortium

01:02:16   of other of my competitors basically,

01:02:19   dictate my roadmap to me and dictate my features to me

01:02:23   and dictate how I do things.

01:02:24   Like it cuts both ways.

01:02:26   Like it is nice to have some kind of industry correlation

01:02:30   and some kind of ad hoc standards form.

01:02:32   And sometimes you do need like a dictated standard,

01:02:34   but there's also so many downsides to that

01:02:37   and it can go so wrong.

01:02:39   And you have this situation where,

01:02:42   if you let the standards bodies,

01:02:44   which are just a bunch of dysfunctional people,

01:02:46   just like any other committee,

01:02:48   if you let these committees dictate everything

01:02:51   you're going to do,

01:02:52   they're gonna make you do some bad stuff too,

01:02:54   and they're gonna make you do some things

01:02:56   that are against your interests,

01:02:57   and possibly not good ideas even for your users.

01:03:01   And so you have to be a little bit picky,

01:03:04   and you have to push back sometimes,

01:03:06   and you have to just declare your own standards sometimes,

01:03:08   and hope people catch up, which Apple has done many times.

01:03:11   - Well, that's been Apple's kind of MO in the W3C.

01:03:14   Like when they come and they arrive with the Canvas tag,

01:03:17   they're like, "You know what would be a really cool idea,

01:03:18   "guys, if we had this tag called Canvas,

01:03:21   "which by the way, you've already implemented in the iPad,

01:03:23   "looks exactly like Core Graphics, but don't mind that.

01:03:25   "Like, it'd be real cool if we had this, guys."

01:03:27   And if they say yes, it's great for Apple,

01:03:30   because they're like, "Yay, they said yes,

01:03:31   "and guess what, we already implemented it.

01:03:33   "Like, we're not just hypothetically telling you

01:03:35   "about something we think would be cool,

01:03:36   "we're telling you about something we already implemented."

01:03:38   And that's great for Apple.

01:03:40   And other companies are always doing the same thing.

01:03:42   Hey, I don't know if they've already implemented it,

01:03:44   but everybody is bringing to the table,

01:03:46   like here's how I think we should do retina images.

01:03:48   And by the way, we've already implemented this

01:03:49   in our web browser.

01:03:50   And everyone wants you to pick your thing

01:03:52   for whatever the thing is,

01:03:54   because A, that puts you ahead,

01:03:56   and B, you're the one who got to design it.

01:03:57   And like the committees may take it and say,

01:03:59   well, we like your proposal,

01:04:00   but we wanna adjust this, that, and the other thing.

01:04:02   And then you're like, okay, great,

01:04:03   we'll go back and adjust our implementation.

01:04:04   That's how essentially web standards works at this point.

01:04:07   All the companies are coming with the thing

01:04:09   that's exactly the way they wanna do it.

01:04:11   The thing that's important to them or their priorities.

01:04:12   And sometimes what happens is the thing that Apple wants,

01:04:14   they more or less get in the way they wanted it.

01:04:16   And the thing that Microsoft wants,

01:04:18   they more or less get it.

01:04:19   I think the Google, like each company has things

01:04:20   that's the most important to them.

01:04:22   And sort of all the things get defined as standards

01:04:25   and everyone kind of agrees like,

01:04:27   "Oh yeah, no, that's totally a standard."

01:04:28   But then who implements the Canvas tag?

01:04:30   Well, Apple certainly has it.

01:04:31   They're the ones who made it up.

01:04:32   It's their first.

01:04:33   Who else is gonna implement the Canvas tag?

01:04:35   The other ones like Grumble, Grumble,

01:04:37   maybe I'll do it or whatever.

01:04:38   And like the same thing with IndexedDB and Shadow DOM,

01:04:40   like whoever is the strongest driving force

01:04:42   behind those standards is the one that wants it the most.

01:04:45   And even if it gets sort of agreed upon by the committee

01:04:48   and written up on W3C and say,

01:04:49   this is gonna be a standard,

01:04:50   like that takes years and years for it to get to that stage.

01:04:54   Then you're still left with,

01:04:55   all right, who implements these standards?

01:04:59   Just because it's written down in W3C org website,

01:05:01   like you said, Marco, it doesn't mean Apple has to make it.

01:05:03   They get to pick and choose

01:05:05   which web standards they're going to make.

01:05:06   It's a bad look for Apple if the committee,

01:05:10   you know, the W3C agrees on how we're gonna handle

01:05:13   retina images and Apple implements his own way to do it

01:05:18   despite the fact that it wasn't the accepted standard

01:05:20   and refuses to implement the accepted standard.

01:05:22   Like that is sort of not playing the game the right way

01:05:25   and Apple wouldn't do that because eventually

01:05:27   five years down the line everybody else would have

01:05:29   implemented this way to do retina images

01:05:31   and Apple would have the other way and people would be like,

01:05:33   well I gotta do conditional markup because now

01:05:36   For everybody else, I can use this element,

01:05:37   but for Safari, I would have to do this.

01:05:39   No, Apple would never do that.

01:05:40   They're going to just go with the standard eventually anyway.

01:05:42   For these other things that aren't implemented yet,

01:05:45   it's just because Apple,

01:05:46   they're not high on Apple's priority list.

01:05:48   Like, either they're not gonna catch on,

01:05:50   in which case Apple will have been smart

01:05:51   to not waste time implementing it,

01:05:53   or if they do catch on,

01:05:54   eventually Apple will implement it

01:05:56   when it becomes important.

01:05:57   It's all about prioritization.

01:05:58   It's just that it seems like every other browser vendor

01:06:00   is more motivated at this point

01:06:03   to implement the standards faster

01:06:05   because almost all the important platforms

01:06:09   see the web at this point as their weapon

01:06:12   against whatever other proprietary platform

01:06:15   is beating them in whatever other market.

01:06:17   Because they're like, well, you may be beating me

01:06:19   in this market, but like, say, Windows Thrones, for example,

01:06:21   well, Android and iOS may be beating me

01:06:23   in the native app market, but if I hurry up

01:06:24   and implement web standards really well,

01:06:26   maybe I'll have really cool web apps at the very least,

01:06:29   and web developers will like our platform.

01:06:31   Like, it's the only thing available to them, right?

01:06:33   Or as Apple's priorities are different,

01:06:35   and Google's priorities are a little bit weird

01:06:37   because they have Android,

01:06:38   but they also have all of Google's web apps.

01:06:40   So Google is highly motivated to make the web awesome,

01:06:43   but also motivated to make a native platform

01:06:45   that competes with iOS.

01:06:46   So I get, I mean, in this game,

01:06:48   Apple is the only one who is highly motivated

01:06:51   to work on native apps

01:06:52   and slightly less motivated to work on web stuff.

01:06:55   So it kind of makes sense that they are

01:06:57   choosing different web technologies to concentrate on.

01:07:01   And that so many of the things that they're concentrating on

01:07:03   with their web stuff,

01:07:04   like with all this power saving things

01:07:06   and GPU acceleration are actually things

01:07:09   that make their overall platform better.

01:07:10   It's better when mobile Safari doesn't kill your battery.

01:07:13   It's better for selling iPhones, right?

01:07:15   And so they're doing that.

01:07:16   It's not really a native app thing.

01:07:18   It's like, that's our platform.

01:07:20   Our platform is this entire product,

01:07:21   not just the software it runs on.

01:07:23   And so Apple has been doing things to make their web browser

01:07:27   like every other part of the system more power efficient.

01:07:29   And I don't think anyone else is as motivated to do that.

01:07:32   maybe Android a little bit, but you know,

01:07:34   it's a strange mix of prioritization there.

01:07:38   And I think what we're seeing is the result

01:07:41   of different companies with different goals

01:07:45   and different priorities.

01:07:46   I just do worry that as these companies drift off

01:07:50   in the directions that it's natural for them to drift in,

01:07:53   that things will start separating too much.

01:07:55   It's why I wrote that code harder go home thing.

01:07:57   Like it was kind of disappointing to me to see

01:07:59   that Apple and Google couldn't stick together

01:08:02   and put all their effort

01:08:03   behind making great web browsing engine

01:08:04   that Apple and Google's directions and pace

01:08:07   was so different that they had to split.

01:08:09   And I worry about Apple being left behind

01:08:11   simply because their web rendering engine priorities

01:08:15   are so much different than Google's

01:08:16   and different than web developers

01:08:18   and perhaps not in the best interest of users

01:08:21   in the longterm.

01:08:23   - Yeah, the thing of it is that, as you both have said,

01:08:25   everyone is acting in their own interests

01:08:26   and that in and of itself,

01:08:28   I don't think that's unreasonable or bad.

01:08:31   It's just, like you just said, John,

01:08:33   I would hope that all of these different companies' interests

01:08:37   eventually kind of come back together over time.

01:08:40   And I think it was John that said a moment ago,

01:08:43   a few minutes ago, you know,

01:08:44   if it comes to be that the new FOO tag

01:08:49   is just the coolest thing in the world,

01:08:51   and Apple hasn't done it, and everyone else has,

01:08:53   and it's freaking awesome,

01:08:55   you bet your butt that Apple's gonna implement it.

01:08:57   It may not be as quick as you want, but it'll happen.

01:09:00   I don't see them just completely sitting on their hands

01:09:03   and going, "La, la, la, la, la, we don't care."

01:09:05   So I understand everyone's perspective here,

01:09:09   but I just don't see it as near as big a deal

01:09:12   as Nolan apparently did.

01:09:15   - Well, and I just keep going back to motivations here,

01:09:18   perspectives, so much of this is the perspective

01:09:22   of web developers who see this world taking off

01:09:25   of native apps and who want to stick with what they know,

01:09:29   what they're invested in, what they believe is right,

01:09:31   which is the web app,

01:09:33   and they don't want to come make native apps,

01:09:35   especially for the platform they don't use.

01:09:38   So, just like iOS developers, or like me,

01:09:41   like I use iOS, I'm an iOS developer,

01:09:44   I just can't address Android in a way that is good,

01:09:47   because I don't see it, I don't use it,

01:09:51   I choose not to have it be a part of my devices and my life,

01:09:56   and so I just can't serve Android.

01:09:58   And the web development world is not used to that.

01:10:01   The web development world is used to being able

01:10:02   to serve everybody with only writing one version

01:10:06   of the site, especially now that modern browsers

01:10:07   are so good with CSS and stuff.

01:10:10   You can really just write one version of the site

01:10:12   and have it work pretty much everywhere

01:10:14   without a whole lot of effort

01:10:15   and without a whole lot of hacks,

01:10:17   which is way better than it used to be,

01:10:19   thanks to web standards, John.

01:10:21   But you have to look at this as web developers really just,

01:10:25   of course they want to stick with what they know.

01:10:27   Of course they want to use all the knowledge and the tools

01:10:30   and the code that they already have.

01:10:34   But the fact is, this is a world of native apps now.

01:10:37   And there is nothing from users saying,

01:10:42   we want web apps to come back and get better

01:10:45   so we can stop using these native apps.

01:10:47   That's just not the world we live in.

01:10:49   Maybe it is, and so many of these standards

01:10:52   are about pushing web apps

01:10:55   into becoming native app replacements,

01:10:57   maybe that's not the right goal.

01:11:00   Maybe just yelling at native apps

01:11:03   and saying we're coming after you with our old stuff,

01:11:05   just wait 'til it catches up, you'll see,

01:11:07   it'll be there just like desktop Linux,

01:11:08   it'll be there next year.

01:11:10   Maybe that is actually a path towards faster relevance.

01:11:14   I don't know.

01:11:15   I've said things in the past that are very skeptical

01:11:19   of the future of the web browser

01:11:22   being the front end for apps.

01:11:24   like you know, and you look at so many new things

01:11:27   that matter a lot, like Instagram when it came up,

01:11:30   and it didn't even have any website whatsoever.

01:11:32   I mean heck, it didn't even have an Android app for a while,

01:11:34   but look at things like that, and like Instagram rose up

01:11:38   and was bought for a billion dollars

01:11:40   before it even had a website at all,

01:11:42   like that did anything useful.

01:11:44   Like it was crazy, and I think the website

01:11:46   still doesn't do that much.

01:11:48   And you know, you can look at examples like that,

01:11:50   that was granted a long time ago,

01:11:52   but these examples just keep happening now.

01:11:55   And you can say, you know, maybe, maybe, you know,

01:11:58   I've hitched my train to this web standards thing,

01:12:01   this web app thing, and that's what I'm gonna invest

01:12:03   all my professional life and career in.

01:12:06   Maybe that train, you know, maybe the ride there

01:12:08   is coming to an end.

01:12:09   I don't know how many more metaphors I can shove in here,

01:12:11   but like, that might not be the best thing,

01:12:14   both career-wise, financially, or for your users,

01:12:17   or for your company.

01:12:19   Like, these new platforms come up, and right now,

01:12:21   you know, we went through this period where web apps,

01:12:24   it was the glory days of web apps,

01:12:26   like from like 2005 to like, you know, 2013, 2014,

01:12:31   it's like the glory days of web apps of like,

01:12:33   that was the place to be to succeed,

01:12:36   to make a big startup, to make a successful app or whatever,

01:12:40   that was the place to be.

01:12:42   Now, that's very clearly not the place to do those things.

01:12:46   Now, apps are the place to do those things.

01:12:49   And you can look at the way web developers talk about

01:12:53   the things they need, the things they want,

01:12:55   the future they see, and look at other industries

01:12:58   that have been made less relevant or less successful

01:13:02   by technological change.

01:13:03   Look at statements made by publishers of magazines

01:13:06   and magazine-like websites.

01:13:08   Look at statements made by record industries

01:13:10   about music and the music business,

01:13:11   and you can see, it isn't that bad,

01:13:13   but you can kinda see some parallels there.

01:13:16   I really do think web developers would be best served by,

01:13:21   you know, sure, if this is what you care about,

01:13:24   keep pushing on it, keep doing what you want,

01:13:26   but keep an open mind to the idea that maybe in 10 years,

01:13:31   web development won't reach this point

01:13:33   that you want it to reach.

01:13:34   Maybe native apps will keep the hold they have on them.

01:13:37   Technology moves in these eras.

01:13:39   It is not always as open or standards-based

01:13:43   as idealists want it to be.

01:13:45   Sometimes you have a span of like 10 years,

01:13:47   like Microsoft in the 90s.

01:13:48   Sometimes you have a span of like 10 years

01:13:50   where one company does control a lot

01:13:52   and you just have to deal with it.

01:13:54   You have to work within that.

01:13:55   You have to find ways to succeed

01:13:57   and get your business done in that environment.

01:13:59   And what John has said about open being better for everybody

01:14:04   is true in theory and it has a lot of benefits,

01:14:07   but in practice it doesn't always work out that way.

01:14:09   It doesn't always happen.

01:14:10   You don't always have those chances.

01:14:12   And so you have to work within whatever era

01:14:15   your career is happening in at this moment

01:14:17   and where it's gonna go next,

01:14:18   you have to work within that just pragmatically.

01:14:21   Ideally, yes, ideally things are different.

01:14:23   Pragmatically, this is how the real world works.

01:14:25   - I don't, you're making it sound like

01:14:27   you can't get a job as a web developer.

01:14:28   Like the web will be around longer than Windows Phone.

01:14:31   I mean, don't worry about it.

01:14:33   - Well, that's not saying much.

01:14:35   - The web will be fine.

01:14:35   Like, it's just a question of like,

01:14:37   relative rates of development.

01:14:40   Like I don't know what Nolan's motivation is,

01:14:43   'cause he lists himself as an Android developer

01:14:44   a web developer.

01:14:45   Like, you know, obviously he wants to make more appy type things.

01:14:47   But I've seen similar complaints from other people, and I don't think it's all personally

01:14:50   motivated.

01:14:51   In fact, I think most of it is kind of like altruistic hippy dippy, like, we don't want

01:14:56   a future controlled by a small number of companies.

01:15:00   We want a future controlled by nobody in the, you know, in the Brent Simmons RSS, you know,

01:15:07   Manton Rees microblogging, get your own domain, Marco Armond, host your own email, sense of

01:15:13   the word of independence, that our future isn't dictated by a small number of people

01:15:20   who run some very large and very powerful companies, right?

01:15:23   The web is a hedge against that.

01:15:25   And if we give up on the web and say, well, maybe I should just learn to write native

01:15:30   apps, like every person who does that every time a company moves in that direction is

01:15:35   -- it's kind of ceding control, giving up on the dreams that all three of the people

01:15:42   I listed you, Brent, Manton, and me for that matter,

01:15:45   have expressed about a future defined in our own terms,

01:15:50   where we sort of own our own information, right?

01:15:54   And where we don't have to do-- where companies don't have

01:15:58   the power to end our careers with a flick of the switch

01:16:01   or change the rules on us.

01:16:02   Like, that's what the open web is about.

01:16:05   And so I don't think it's so much about,

01:16:09   I'm worried about my personal career,

01:16:11   So I'm gonna write this thing about Safari is the new IE to try to make Apple do the thing that I want them to

01:16:15   Do so I can do the thing like

01:16:17   You write that there's adjustments like that especially in startups like starps all about the web now starps all about apps who knows what?

01:16:23   The heck starps will be about in the next couple of decades. Maybe you know be about like biotech. I have no idea right

01:16:29   but I think that is that's separate from the overarching discussion of

01:16:35   What is going to define the future of technology and like we define it by?

01:16:40   you know by sort of the the anyone who participates in the development community defines it like even you know

01:16:46   Seen a lot of tweets from Lauren brick tear discussing this

01:16:49   Who has very strong and strange feelings about programming and development these days?

01:16:54   but when he did iOS development, he wrote his own GUI and OpenGL and he's currently having fantasies of

01:16:58   Writing a web application entirely with web GL and the canvas tag, right?

01:17:04   Is that still a web application as we define it? Why would he be doing that?

01:17:07   Why wouldn't he just write a native app? He's certainly a really good native app developer.

01:17:11   He's not doing it because he's afraid that he won't be, he already knows how to write native

01:17:16   apps, right? It's because he doesn't want to be under the thumb of Apple or Microsoft or Android

01:17:21   or anyone else. And that was what I think is the underlying motivation of at least some of the

01:17:25   people who are sort of behind the "hey let's make the web a better place to write applications"

01:17:30   thing. It's not so much about trying to defend their small domain of knowledge because if they

01:17:34   If they can't write web applications, they can't do any other job.

01:17:37   I mean, Lauren Bricher is a great example.

01:17:39   He can obviously write native applications, right?

01:17:42   That's not why he's doing that.

01:17:43   That's not why people like Jeffrey Zeldman are gung ho on the web, right?

01:17:48   It's sort of trying to ensure a better future for everybody.

01:17:52   And I like to think that that is the majority of the thing that motivates everyone on the

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01:18:01   that they're motivated in large part by the idea that even if they work at Google or Microsoft

01:18:07   or Apple that the web isn't owned by anybody.

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01:21:31   - Okay, so was it earlier today, I believe,

01:21:35   Microsoft announced big layoffs,

01:21:38   and someone was kind enough to put some snippets

01:21:41   in the show notes, and I will capitalize on their hard work

01:21:44   and claim it as my own.

01:21:46   Microsoft Corp. today announced plans to restructure the company's phone hardware business to better focus and align resources,

01:21:52   which typically is business speak for "we screwed up." Microsoft also announced a reduction of up to

01:21:57   7,800 positions primarily in the phone business. As a result, the company will record an impairment charge of approximately

01:22:06   $7.6 billion

01:22:08   related to assets associated with the acquisition of the Nokia devices and services business in addition to a

01:22:14   restructuring charge of approximately 750 million to 850 million

01:22:18   Yikes, and just for reference isn't that they're basically saying like the entire price we paid for Nokia is a write-off

01:22:25   Isn't that basically what they paid for? Yeah, since they bought Nokia they basically lost ten billion dollars on it

01:22:30   so not a great acquisition and like I always wonder I

01:22:34   Obviously, I don't understand enough about a big business to know like someone is highly motivated to make these things happen, right?

01:22:42   Someone is highly motivated to marry two large companies together because it's going to be a big payday for them, right?

01:22:49   But anybody from the outside and probably most people from the inside know that the joining of these two giant companies

01:22:56   Despite all the talk of synergy is going to be a terrible idea

01:22:59   like the nothing, you know

01:23:01   Nothing good is going to come from this multi-billion dollar acquisition that it's like the chances are really really really high that instead what's gonna happen is

01:23:09   More losses more layoffs just like bad things will happen

01:23:14   I mean it's possible to have plenty possible to have good acquisitions Apple buying next was perhaps the best acquisition in the history of the world

01:23:21   Value value wise like 400 million dollars for next or whatever it was

01:23:25   If you look at what they got out of that deal

01:23:28   Tremendous right and all sorts of like oh I bought a small company and that was a great idea because it helped me make this

01:23:33   product that you know like whatever buying the companies that do like touch ID sensor or

01:23:38   strategic investments in other small companies, but when it's like a

01:23:40   Company that's in trouble buying some other company for a really really big amount of money

01:23:46   It just always seems like to me from the outside that it's like seriously someone thinks

01:23:51   This is a good idea. Like this is not going to save them

01:23:54   This is going to be a disaster and most of the time you're right, but somebody in all these companies

01:23:59   Must be both incentivized to do it and in the position where they can make it happen

01:24:05   And those people are I guess laughing all the way to the bank or retiring to their private islands or whatever is they're doing but

01:24:11   Microsoft as a company if you care about Microsoft as a company

01:24:14   them buying Nokia or for that matter Google buying Motorola all seemed like

01:24:19   really bad ideas in retrospect and also really bad ideas at the time like

01:24:24   Maybe there was nothing else they could do and this was the best of a bunch of bad options, but boy this is very disappointing

01:24:31   I mean don't you think though that I I do agree with you, but don't you think in a situation where Microsoft was?

01:24:38   Arguably a little bit on the ropes. What was it a year or two ago when they when they bought Nokia Nokia?

01:24:43   I always pronounce it wrong. I'm sorry

01:24:45   If they have a lot of money in the bank, and they're kind on the ropes

01:24:49   Why not give it a shot like I agree that?

01:24:52   Intellectually it didn't never seem like it was going to work

01:24:57   It just seemed like a bad idea.

01:24:58   But if you're in a bad position, but you have a pretty big war chest, what else are you

01:25:03   really supposed to do?

01:25:05   Quadruple down on R&D and hope you fart out something good?

01:25:08   It kind of seemed like, at the point that they bought Nokia, their whole strategy about,

01:25:14   like, are we going to make our own phones, or are we going to make Windows phones and

01:25:17   have other people make phones, like, trying to waffle between the Apple strategy and the

01:25:22   Microsoft Windows strategy, where, do we just make the software and then we make other people

01:25:25   like the hardware or have we decided that that doesn't work anymore and we need to make

01:25:28   our own hardware? Because you can't do both very well. It's the same thing with Google

01:25:35   and Android. They make Nexus phones but they want everyone else to use Android but they

01:25:38   let people do whatever they want with Android but not really. Actually they want to have

01:25:41   more tightly controlled. You can say what you want about Apple's strategy but for the

01:25:46   most part it has been straightforward. Microsoft has been in between strategies for a while.

01:25:52   The Windows strategy was clear.

01:25:53   We make the software, you make the hardware,

01:25:55   you guys kill each other until your margin is zero

01:25:57   and you all go out of business.

01:25:58   We make money hand over fist.

01:26:00   That was a very clear strategy.

01:26:02   They tried to do the same thing with mobile

01:26:04   and it just never worked out.

01:26:05   And so they, doing the slow motion transition

01:26:09   into kind of like the Apple strategy.

01:26:12   Like once they bought Nokia, it was like,

01:26:13   so are you all in on the Apple strategy?

01:26:16   I don't know, you basically bought a phone company.

01:26:17   You're gonna make Windows phones,

01:26:19   running Windows that you make,

01:26:20   like that seems like what you're doing,

01:26:21   but you're also still licensing Windows Phone?

01:26:24   Like, what do you guys even do?

01:26:25   It was just, it's like they didn't want to do

01:26:29   what Steve Jobs did when he came back at Apple,

01:26:31   was immediately make the super hard choices.

01:26:34   Are we doing phones or are we not doing them?

01:26:36   And it seems like they spent $10 billion

01:26:39   to delay a few years in saying,

01:26:41   we're not doing them, at least not this way.

01:26:44   This way where we make our own phones,

01:26:46   and I don't even understand,

01:26:47   like the next quote I put in the show notes here

01:26:49   is Satya Nadella saying,

01:26:50   "We're moving from a strategy

01:26:51   "to grow a standalone phone business

01:26:53   "to a strategy to grow and create

01:26:55   "a vibrant Windows ecosystem,

01:26:57   "including our own first party family."

01:26:59   What the hell does that even mean?

01:27:00   (laughing)

01:27:02   You're not going to have a standalone phone business?

01:27:04   You want to have a vibrant Windows ecosystem?

01:27:07   Fine.

01:27:08   Including our own first party device family?

01:27:10   Wasn't that what you were just trying to do?

01:27:12   Like walk this middle road of like,

01:27:14   we want to have a vibrant ecosystem,

01:27:18   but we're also gonna make our own phones.

01:27:20   He also wants to focus his phone business

01:27:23   on making every kind of phone for everybody.

01:27:25   - Yeah, like either just say, we lost in mobile.

01:27:29   We were too late, we moved too slowly,

01:27:30   we made too many mistakes, we're gone.

01:27:32   Or pick one thing, strategy, and focus on it laser-like.

01:27:37   And their current waffling, it just seems like

01:27:40   you're just dragging things out

01:27:42   and not really making things better.

01:27:44   Like I think you're right, Casey, like,

01:27:46   the Nokia acquisition is like, well, the one thing,

01:27:49   We don't have a lot of time,

01:27:50   but we do have a lot of money, so let's just go for it.

01:27:52   Maybe it will help, maybe it won't.

01:27:54   Maybe you could say, well, of course the naysayers

01:27:56   are gonna say it's too late,

01:27:57   you're never gonna get traction, but who knows?

01:27:59   They could have, maybe something could have happened,

01:28:00   they could have had a particular feature

01:28:02   in a new Windows phone that caught the public imagination

01:28:05   and suddenly, I don't know.

01:28:07   It's conceivable, but it just, it has always seemed

01:28:10   that they're not quite ready.

01:28:13   These layoffs are actually kind of a good thing,

01:28:15   but they're not quite ready to do the crazy, brutal,

01:28:17   immediate cuts that Apple,

01:28:19   'cause Apple was gonna go bankrupt,

01:28:20   Microsoft is not, right?

01:28:21   So Apple was better motivated to do the cuts that it did.

01:28:26   Microsoft probably needs to do the same kind of cutting.

01:28:29   It just is, you know,

01:28:31   because they're not in such dire straits,

01:28:33   they're not quite ready to do that.

01:28:35   And like the Satya Nadella company that like concentrates

01:28:38   on Azure and mobile services and it's like server-side

01:28:42   backends, kind of like a better friendlier,

01:28:46   less creepy Google where they have a bunch of server services that they've been to you

01:28:51   and of course they still own the desktop and all this like that company doesn't seem to

01:28:56   include mobile as an essential component to me that strategy they want to have that strategy

01:29:02   they want to say we sell to the enterprise we own the desktop PC space we also have Windows

01:29:07   mobile services type things for vendors of all platforms including other mobile platforms

01:29:12   And by the way, we also wanna have our own phone platform

01:29:15   and our own phones and have our phone operating system

01:29:17   and other people's phones.

01:29:18   Like, I don't know if Microsoft of today

01:29:20   is the Microsoft that can keep doing that.

01:29:21   So, God, it's weird that I'm rooting for Microsoft

01:29:26   to get its crap together and I thought they really were,

01:29:29   but like, I mean, I guess I'm just in retrospect

01:29:32   yelling at them some more for acquiring Nokia.

01:29:35   I guess this is the right move

01:29:36   to cut your losses to move on,

01:29:38   but it's tough for all the people who are getting laid off

01:29:41   And I still don't understand these quotes

01:29:43   in this press release about their strategy moving forward.

01:29:45   It still seems like they're still crossing their fingers

01:29:48   and hoping somehow that Windows 7

01:29:49   will be viable in some form.

01:29:52   - Honest question, why do you say it's weird

01:29:54   for you to be rooting for Microsoft?

01:29:55   Why is that weird?

01:29:56   - 'Cause I hate Microsoft.

01:29:57   I'm a long time Microsoft hater, remember?

01:29:59   - Well, but I mean, what have they done to you lately?

01:30:02   - I don't, I'm not gonna make the analogy

01:30:04   I always make again because it's terrible

01:30:05   and people should yell at me much more

01:30:07   than they do about making it.

01:30:08   So I'm not gonna make it again.

01:30:09   But yeah, I've explained this in nicer terms many times before.

01:30:14   When I was growing up, it was so clear to me that Apple had the better operating system

01:30:19   and technology and everything for desktop computing, and the company that won in the

01:30:24   market was Microsoft with an inferior product as far as I was concerned, and I'll never

01:30:28   forgive them for destroying...

01:30:31   Even though it was only a span of like 10 or 20 years where Microsoft was the dominant

01:30:35   forced in desktop computing. That was an important 10 or 20 years in my particular lifespan,

01:30:41   and they ruined it all by winning on the basis of merits that I did not consider important,

01:30:46   or the most important ones. So I hold a grudge against them, which is silly and immature

01:30:51   in reality. I'm actually rooting for them, so on and so forth. But I'm basically explaining

01:30:56   to you, why do I ever have any kind of resistance to Microsoft? That's why.

01:30:59   Well, I understand what you're saying, and it is big of you, and I'm not patronizing

01:31:04   It's big of you to say that you're holding a grudge and being a baby about it, but

01:31:06   Not to turn this into accidental analog, but do you feel don't you think that it that Apple needed?

01:31:14   the

01:31:15   the domination of Microsoft and their utter demise or near demise to

01:31:21   Rise from the ashes and become the the powerhouse they are today

01:31:25   It makes a more dramatic story, but they didn't need it to do with it

01:31:29   You know like I if Apple had become the dominant force in desktop computing. I would have had a happier childhood

01:31:36   Slightly I don't know that it really could have ended up this way like I mean

01:31:41   There's no I there's no way for us to know right

01:31:43   But I'm not entirely sure that the situation like the situation ended up and makes her really good story because a company that almost

01:31:49   Goes out of business then becomes the biggest business company in the world is a great story right and the return of a leader

01:31:54   I was sure like it's all it's all a great narrative, but

01:31:58   The current place we're in with the current Apple. I don't know if this is the best of all possible

01:32:03   Apple worlds at this point right. I don't know I like anyway

01:32:08   I'm like I said, I'm rooting for Microsoft to get its act together

01:32:10   I would like to see it concentrated on the things that it is actually good at I still have a

01:32:15   Taste issue with Microsoft to use the old Steve Jobs

01:32:18   Slam on them in that a lot of the things they do I find

01:32:25   technically and aesthetically displeasing for for reasons that are also probably petty and silly but just I mean even

01:32:31   Down to the use of backslashes and all capital letters and things like you think why does that matter like?

01:32:35   Stuff like that matters to me. It's stupid. Whatever it does. I feel like my

01:32:40   my sensibilities do not match up with my sensibilities are much greater match to

01:32:45   90s era Apple sensibilities and Unix sensibilities and combine them to then you have modern Apple sensibilities, which I'm still pretty much

01:32:54   you know on the same wavelength with I've not been on the same wavelength with

01:32:58   Microsoft about most things and

01:33:01   you know the most the major manifestation of my grudges have to admit in the gaming world where I

01:33:07   Still won't have an Xbox if I can possibly help it and they bought Bungie. Did I mention that?

01:33:13   Anyway, there's a lot of bitterness

01:33:15   For many years you don't say so when I was in high school and middle school. I was picked off like crazy

01:33:22   I there were there were so many people who picked on me and some of it I wasn't helping but a lot of it

01:33:28   Just I was just getting picked on, you know, so I had a rough time and so in college

01:33:33   I was I was home for one of the summers and I was I had a job. I had like a good internship at

01:33:38   Nationwide insurance and one morning I I stopped off at the at the coffee shop in neighborhood

01:33:44   I grew up in and the guy behind the counter who served me was one of the biggest bullies

01:33:50   to me in school and

01:33:52   so here I was like going to my nice job and

01:33:57   I'm being served by this guy who used to really be a bully to me and

01:34:00   He was so burnt out and so out of it

01:34:06   He looked like he'd been hit by a train like he he clearly

01:34:09   Had gone through some really rough times and was not having the life that anybody would have

01:34:16   You know would have said I want that life

01:34:18   he clearly, you know, he needed to go to stuff together and clearly just wasn't and

01:34:22   Here he was serving me, you know after making fun of me for years and I felt bad for him

01:34:29   Like I I wasn't I didn't look at him and say I'm you know, oh here's this guy I hated in high school

01:34:34   I just looked at him like man, that is so sad. He'd he was so burnt out

01:34:37   I don't think he even recognized me. I don't like I hadn't seen him in like three years

01:34:40   Like I don't think he even knew who I was

01:34:42   that to me like

01:34:47   Hating Microsoft today. I don't hate them. It's like you said I feel bad for them

01:34:51   I wish they would do better. I but I still have yes. I hate them. No

01:34:56   No, it's like I here's the thing like I said the current day

01:34:59   I still have aesthetic differences with their tastes in like the technologies that they make and the sort of the the

01:35:04   Gooeys they make the the heart even down to the hardware design like it doesn't quite match up with them with my taste Metro was

01:35:11   Maybe a little bit closer, but still

01:35:14   Not quite a match and I do give them full credit for sort of leading the charge in that new design

01:35:18   But I like Apple's interpretation of it better. Right? So I'm not I don't spend my time worrying about them, but

01:35:23   Like even here's the thing they still dominate on the desktop and that still annoys me the idea that someone who?

01:35:31   Most people who own personal computers do not own

01:35:33   Apple personal computers or Linux on the desktop or whatever that camera they mostly own Windows and I don't like Windows

01:35:39   I don't like PCs. I don't like PC hardware. I don't like Windows operating system

01:35:43   I don't like any of it, and that's still the default.

01:35:45   PC still exists, and that annoys me.

01:35:46   It's like, well, Apple's the biggest company in the world,

01:35:48   and I guess it doesn't matter anymore,

01:35:49   'cause who cares, 'cause mobile is the future,

01:35:50   and blah, blah, blah, but that's still a real thing

01:35:53   that is happening now.

01:35:54   Microsoft Exchange is still a real thing,

01:35:55   and I don't like it.

01:35:56   It doesn't work right.

01:35:57   I don't like Microsoft Office on the Mac,

01:35:58   and I have to use it at work,

01:35:59   'cause Microsoft Dominates was exchanged,

01:36:01   and SharePoint is a real thing.

01:36:04   These things still annoy me from day to day,

01:36:06   so there are actual real sources of complaints.

01:36:08   I would like to see Microsoft, the company,

01:36:10   get its act together, because I think it's filled

01:36:12   the smart people who can do great things,

01:36:14   I would like them to do those great things

01:36:15   instead of trying to pretend they're still the old Microsoft

01:36:18   and they can dominate everywhere.

01:36:20   And the gaming thing's kind of a sideshow

01:36:22   because Microsoft has a little bit of a usurper there.

01:36:24   It's like, well, can't you just leave gaming on those again

01:36:26   back from the days when Microsoft needed to own everything?

01:36:28   It's like, oh, of course we're gonna have a gaming console.

01:36:30   Yeah, we're gonna come and ruin every industry.

01:36:32   And that's mostly just silliness

01:36:35   'cause Xbox is a really good platform

01:36:37   and they've done a really good job in that market.

01:36:39   In fact, the Xbox should be the model

01:36:40   for every other business they're screwing up in.

01:36:42   Because they stuck with Xbox even through many screw ups

01:36:47   including crappy first generation hardware

01:36:50   and the red rig of death.

01:36:51   They kept sticking to it.

01:36:53   They learned from their mistakes.

01:36:55   If they had done what they'd done with the Xbox

01:36:57   and all their other businesses,

01:36:58   they'd be in a way better position than they are now.

01:37:01   That said, I'm still not getting one if I can at all help it.

01:37:04   And also I would say for this generation,

01:37:06   the PS4 has the better hardware.

01:37:09   I like the trade-offs and compromises that Sony made with this generation's hardware

01:37:13   better.

01:37:14   Last generation, Microsoft probably had the better hardware than the PS3, but last generation

01:37:19   I was intrigued by the PS3's crazy-ass CPU.

01:37:21   How could you not be intrigued by it if you're a CPU design nerd?

01:37:23   So anyway, I don't spend my days thinking about Microsoft.

01:37:29   And sure you don't.

01:37:32   You guys brought it up.

01:37:33   And in the context of these layoffs and everything, I'm frustrated with Microsoft, like, not,

01:37:39   I don't know.

01:37:40   I would like to see Microsoft rise from the ashes as a company I can love.

01:37:43   That hasn't happened yet.

01:37:45   But what could they do to turn into a company that you would love?

01:37:48   Well, I mean, the Xbox is a good start.

01:37:50   The one that you just said you would never, ever, ever buy.

01:37:52   Right, but like, but what they did with that product, like, how they, how they behaved,

01:37:57   how did they, how did they enter the new market?

01:38:01   How what did they do?

01:38:02   How did the company stand behind it?

01:38:04   As opposed to like, you know,

01:38:05   oh forget about the Kin and we screwed it up.

01:38:07   Oh, we're not gonna do the Courier.

01:38:08   You know, like all the times, Windows CE, Windows Mobile,

01:38:11   like they never had the courage of their convictions

01:38:14   and so many other things where they screwed up.

01:38:16   Whereas the Xbox, they stuck with it through thick and thin

01:38:19   and there was a hell of a lot of thin.

01:38:21   And they gotten better and better with every generation.

01:38:23   And even the Kinect, which they kind of tried to stick with,

01:38:26   which is not really working out for them.

01:38:27   That was a bold, daring, interesting move, right?

01:38:31   So take those type of things and apply that

01:38:34   to pick your market.

01:38:35   And maybe they're kind of also doing that

01:38:36   in web services backends.

01:38:38   I don't, you know, there's not this,

01:38:41   there's them, there's Amazon and EC2 and S3

01:38:43   and all the other services they do.

01:38:44   And then there's Google stuff.

01:38:46   So there's not everyone in that market

01:38:47   is a little bit weird.

01:38:48   It's kind of hard to, and it's also a very young market.

01:38:51   So it's hard to know what they're doing there,

01:38:52   but certainly what they've done in mobile

01:38:55   is the opposite of what they did at Xbox.

01:38:57   Really, you know, not standing behind what they're doing,

01:39:00   being really confused about what they're trying to do,

01:39:03   not doing anything particularly bold or daring,

01:39:07   not learning from their mistakes,

01:39:09   like deciding whether we're going to make the software

01:39:11   and everyone else makes the hardware,

01:39:12   or we're gonna do the Apple strategy.

01:39:15   Being really late to the game,

01:39:16   you could argue they relate to the game and consoles,

01:39:18   but on the other hand,

01:39:19   like console, console generations are kind of a reset point

01:39:23   in a way that mobile is not.

01:39:24   Like every year there's a new set of phones,

01:39:26   but it doesn't give you, well, it's a new chance to see

01:39:27   who's gonna be on top this year.

01:39:28   like the market share sort of builds from year to year.

01:39:32   So yeah, I have some, I have,

01:39:35   let's say I have history with Microsoft.

01:39:37   Let's leave it at that.

01:39:38   (laughing)

01:39:39   - It's complicated.

01:39:40   - I have history, what it comes down to.

01:39:41   Like, and who is Microsoft?

01:39:43   It's not a person.

01:39:44   Bill Gates is gone.

01:39:45   Like I don't have any ill will

01:39:46   against the individual people there,

01:39:47   but you can conceptualize the collective actions

01:39:50   of many people under a single corporate banner as a thing.

01:39:52   And I have history with that thing.

01:39:55   - I mean, whatever, man.

01:39:57   Whatever makes you happy.

01:39:58   - I have history with Apple too.

01:39:59   - Yeah, but they can do no wrong.

01:40:00   - No, it was a different history with them.

01:40:02   Very different history with them.

01:40:05   Yeah, let's talk sometime about the performer series of Macs.

01:40:08   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:40:12   Hover, Backblaze and Fracture,

01:40:14   and we will see you next week.

01:40:16   (upbeat music)

01:40:19   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:40:21   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:40:24   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:40:26   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:26   Oh it was accidental John didn't do any research

01:40:31   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental

01:40:36   It was accidental And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:40:43   And if you're into Twitter You can follow them at

01:40:50   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,

01:40:58   Auntie Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C, U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A, it's accidental.

01:41:09   They didn't mean to, accidental.

01:41:14   Tech broadcast, so long.

01:41:19   Have you guys ever used a Windows 8 computer?

01:41:21   - Actually, my first time was within the last week or two.

01:41:26   - I use it in a VM.

01:41:28   I use, does that count in VMware?

01:41:30   I have Windows 8 and VMware since it's been released.

01:41:32   - So I was, as most of you know,

01:41:36   I was a Windows user from the dawn of time

01:41:40   that I had a computer up through 2004

01:41:46   and then kind of faded away into the Mac full time

01:41:49   by about '05 or '06.

01:41:52   And so I totally missed, I never even used Windows Vista.

01:41:55   I was on XP until I quit.

01:41:57   Never used 7, never used 8,

01:42:01   and haven't even seen 10 really.

01:42:04   Except occasional VMs for browser testing,

01:42:06   but nothing beyond that.

01:42:08   Well this past weekend I was at my kids' preschool

01:42:11   and they knew I knew computers

01:42:12   so they asked if I could take a look.

01:42:13   one of the computers was having trouble,

01:42:16   it couldn't see the printer basically,

01:42:18   the printer kept saying it was offline.

01:42:20   It was running Windows 8 and the only reason I know that

01:42:22   is that I kept getting kicked to the squares screen,

01:42:27   getting kicked between that and the desktop environment

01:42:29   and even having been a previous Windows professional,

01:42:34   I would be paid by people to fix their Windows computers,

01:42:38   I was pretty good at it,

01:42:40   but that all my knowledge for Windows is 10 years old.

01:42:44   Even having that background

01:42:47   and now being pretty good at Macs,

01:42:49   this system was completely inscrutable to me.

01:42:53   Like it was so ridiculously confusing

01:42:56   trying to figure out how to do things

01:42:58   like turn the WiFi off and turn it back on,

01:43:01   or like where is the printer control panel?

01:43:04   Where is the print queue so I can delete this document

01:43:06   that I sent four times out of it?

01:43:08   It was baffling and I would like

01:43:10   right click on something, and of course it doesn't help

01:43:12   that PC hardware is awful, so I kept right clicking

01:43:15   or left clicking when I went to right click and everything

01:43:17   'cause the track pad was terrible.

01:43:19   And it was just unbelievable how incredibly confusing

01:43:24   and horrible Windows 8 really was to do something

01:43:28   that's beyond test something in IE on Windows 8.

01:43:31   Beyond that of, okay, here's a computer that's having

01:43:34   what is really a very minor problem, how do you fix it?

01:43:37   And the problem ended up being the computer was offline

01:43:40   completely, it had no internet connection through the Wi-Fi.

01:43:44   And so bouncing between IE to test the connection,

01:43:47   it's like go to IE, type in Google.com or whatever,

01:43:50   going back and forth between that,

01:43:51   and then the Wi-Fi control panel,

01:43:53   which is really in the desktop environment,

01:43:56   'cause it's some Wi-Fi thing there,

01:43:58   and then bouncing between that and different control panels,

01:44:00   oh my God.

01:44:02   I know Windows fans generally hated Windows 8

01:44:04   that reason, but I had no idea how bad it was. I'm shocked that they shipped that.

01:44:10   Oh, it's so ridiculous. So my entire... well, my parents are all on Macs and iOS, my brothers

01:44:19   are on iOS, but I believe they're both running PCs. I read somewhere years ago, I can't remember

01:44:27   specifically where it was, but somebody basically said that they told their family, it might

01:44:31   been you, Marco, for all I know. But somebody said they told their family, "Listen, I am

01:44:35   going to only field tech support questions about Max."

01:44:39   Yeah, that was me.

01:44:40   Okay, it was you. So...

01:44:41   It worked. They all use Max now.

01:44:43   Right? So, and I have taken that same hard line. That worked well with my family. Aaron's

01:44:49   family, my brother-in-law does the same sort of thing that I do, and he is the eldest child,

01:44:57   and he can do no wrong, and so he continually recommends Dells, and they continually, constantly

01:45:02   recommend or buy Dells. Granted, they constantly b*tch and moan about how they never work, but

01:45:08   they still go and buy Dells. Anyway, my sister-in-law, who has a Dell, said, "Oh, something isn't

01:45:15   working." I forget specifically what it was now, and she wanted help with it. And I went

01:45:21   to use it. And this is the first time I'd used Windows 8 for more than four

01:45:26   seconds without like a coworker telling me click here, click here, click here,

01:45:30   click here. I genuinely, I went to do Windows key R which in general in like

01:45:37   XP and Windows 7. That's run right? Right. It basically brings up the start run in

01:45:43   Windowses that have a start button. So I could type, I think I was trying to get

01:45:47   the command prompt or whatever. And I tried to do that and I couldn't because

01:45:52   if memory serves command or Windows key R didn't do anything because why?

01:45:57   Because there is no start button anymore. I was completely, completely crippled. I

01:46:03   didn't know what to do with myself and I basically looked at it, shook my head and

01:46:07   said, "You're gonna have to ask your brother because I got nothing." And I don't

01:46:12   understand why they keep going back to these machines because all they do is

01:46:15   have problems. And all they do is come to me and say, "Can you fix this?" And for everyone, I typically

01:46:20   say, "Nope. Buy a Mac." My sister-in-law is a little younger. She's in her like first or second year

01:46:25   of college. I felt bad for her. I was like, "All right, well, let me at least take a look." And nope.

01:46:29   Even if I wanted to, I couldn't freaking figure it out. Now let me remind you that day to day,

01:46:34   I live in Windows. That is what my regular J-O-B job does. I could not figure out what to do with

01:46:40   Windows 8. Now in the defense of Windows, Windows 7 is actually excellent. It really is very, very

01:46:45   good and I've heard that Windows 10 writes a lot of the wrongs that Windows 8 made, much

01:46:51   in the same way that 7 write a lot of the wrongs that Vista made, but by god I could

01:46:57   not agree with you more Marco. 8 is so, so, so bad.

01:47:02   Windows 8 has the problem that everyone who is familiar with the previous version of Windows,

01:47:07   like you two, is cranky when you change where things are. So Windows 8 tried to be like,

01:47:11   "Well, we know people are gonna be cranky,

01:47:13   so can we have a bunch of new stuff

01:47:15   but also try to keep the old stuff?"

01:47:17   And so they just made everybody miserable.

01:47:18   It was like they moved too much stuff for people

01:47:21   that they didn't want things to move.

01:47:23   And they didn't do like a clean sheet kind of

01:47:25   a Mac OS 9 to OS 10 transition where it's like,

01:47:28   just everything's gone, forget about classic Mac OSes,

01:47:30   backward compatibility for a little while,

01:47:32   but it's going away.

01:47:33   They didn't do that either.

01:47:34   And so in Windows 10, they're backsliding.

01:47:36   They're like, "Well, we were too timid

01:47:38   to make the big transition,

01:47:39   So let's just roll back most of the annoying things

01:47:43   and try to make it slightly more familiar

01:47:44   for people who liked Windows 7 and no one liked Vista

01:47:48   and XP and whatever.

01:47:50   (laughing)

01:47:51   They have not, as I said, had the courage

01:47:54   of their convictions when it came

01:47:55   to their desktop operating system either.

01:47:57   And so Windows 8 and Windows 10,

01:48:00   like these were at various times the recommended thing

01:48:04   that Microsoft would sell you

01:48:07   for the dominant personal computing platform on the planet.

01:48:10   And that should be upsetting to everybody involved.

01:48:13   (laughing)

01:48:14   - No, but I mean, it isn't, Windows 8 is not just bad

01:48:18   because it was different.

01:48:19   Like, the new interface, even if you lived entirely

01:48:24   in like the new Squares interface.

01:48:26   - Well, you couldn't live entirely in it

01:48:27   because there were certain things you had to go

01:48:28   to the other one to do.

01:48:29   - But like, I would even go as far as to say

01:48:31   that was actually bad.

01:48:33   Like, it wasn't just that it was different

01:48:35   or that it was mixed.

01:48:36   I would even say the Squares interface is itself bad.

01:48:39   - Is that what it's called?

01:48:40   - Yes, sure.

01:48:41   Well, it's not called Metro anymore.

01:48:42   God knows what it's called.

01:48:43   So, like, it--

01:48:44   - But you're talking about the screen with the tiles.

01:48:46   Like, not just the interface of the apps

01:48:48   when they're running, but that screen

01:48:50   where you have a bunch of tiles on a ribbon

01:48:52   that you slide along and--

01:48:53   - Right, I'm talking about the tile interface to launch

01:48:56   and see what is happening there

01:48:58   and the apps that run natively within it,

01:49:00   like the IE I kept switching into

01:49:01   was natively in that environment.

01:49:04   - Well, it's part of their unified strategy

01:49:05   Like this works on tablets this works on your phones this works on a desktop to try to make one sort of OS type

01:49:10   Of one OS paradigm if not one specific UI that spans. One OS that works nowhere. Yeah well

01:49:16   I think that interface worked a lot better on phones on tablets maybe had a little bit too much of edge slidey crap

01:49:22   But on phones that you know it kind of is on phones what you do you can basically just swipe around and stuff and so

01:49:29   And the tiles idea like having active tiles where you can relay information instead of just icons like

01:49:35   There were a lot of good ideas buried in there, but it was they bit off a lot

01:49:38   Maybe not more than they could chew, but they bit off a lot and then they just decided

01:49:43   They had to for just practical reasons hedge their bets on the desktop and still kind of have the old windows lurking underneath everything

01:49:50   and that's just

01:49:52   Didn't make anybody happy

01:49:53   Let me tell you another long boring story about my past

01:49:55   When I was developing overcast the very first version of the podcast list screen like basically the root screen

01:50:03   The first version of that I designed and wrote

01:50:06   as a collection view with a tile view of podcasts.

01:50:11   And you can see some other apps do this too.

01:50:12   Like this is not a new thing.

01:50:14   So I assumed you'd have the tile view

01:50:17   of like just squares of artwork.

01:50:18   It was a nice squares based interface

01:50:21   and it looked really nice.

01:50:22   Like it looked better than the long list.

01:50:24   Visually you look at that, oh, that's so much cooler.

01:50:26   But I found as I was using it, it would annoy me to,

01:50:30   like I couldn't browse it as easily

01:50:32   as I could browse one single list,

01:50:34   and you have to kind of zigzag your eyes back and forth

01:50:36   into columns and everything.

01:50:37   I decided even though it looks nicer,

01:50:39   it doesn't work as well,

01:50:40   it is not as good in my opinion as a list.

01:50:44   I think Windows Phone, everyone said

01:50:47   when Windows Phone came out

01:50:49   with this brand new interface of the Metro Squares,

01:50:52   everyone said, "Oh my God, this is really interesting,

01:50:55   "it's a cool new design."

01:50:56   And even I said, "It's a cool looking new design."

01:50:59   But even when I've occasionally tried to use

01:51:02   tile interface like in Microsoft stores in the past and it is cool looking but

01:51:09   it is that doesn't mean it's a good interface and an Apple is guilty of that

01:51:14   offense many very often but in general I don't think they did it as badly as

01:51:19   Microsoft did in 8 in anything but like you know Windows 8 if Windows phone you

01:51:25   know you said oh Windows phone did it did it well people liked it if Windows

01:51:28   phone really did it that well more people would have bought Windows phone

01:51:31   It worked better there than it did on the tablet or PC is what I'm saying because the screen is so small you can't have

01:51:36   like this massive fleet of tiles you could basically have just

01:51:39   One or two columns of things and so it was more manageable even like within the interfaces when you're scrolling through contacts like they would

01:51:46   Have one per row like it wasn't a table view

01:51:48   But it also wasn't like this giant fleet of little tiles that you had to scramble through it

01:51:54   They were basically forced by the narrowness of the device to have

01:51:57   interfaces that were

01:51:59   more

01:52:00   More like if you were to wireframe them, it was really more like a traditional scrolling view with a list rather than a giant grid

01:52:06   Even like the sort of home screen thing maybe had two things side by side or three

01:52:10   And it ended up being not too much unlike

01:52:13   Swiping from one home screen to the next as you saw the next set of things that would fit on a little skinny screen

01:52:17   I don't know but

01:52:19   Whenever I heard from people who actually used it like like as their phones full-time

01:52:24   You'd either for a brief span or for for a long time

01:52:28   everyone always said the same thing,

01:52:29   which is like, this interface looks cool,

01:52:32   but it has a lot of, like this design has a lot of flaws,

01:52:35   and it isn't as easy to use

01:52:36   as you would think, conceptually.

01:52:38   And again, everyone agreed, it's, you know,

01:52:40   same thing like with the Palm Free and WebOS.

01:52:42   Everyone said the same thing about that,

01:52:44   like, this is really cool, it's interesting.

01:52:46   - Well, but they did have good ideas.

01:52:47   Like the tile interface is basically

01:52:48   the current iOS multitasking thing.

01:52:50   Like, they did actually have good, I think,

01:52:52   interface ideas of like how to do multitasking,

01:52:54   how to deal with different things,

01:52:55   to scroll along them, to flick them up,

01:52:57   to pull things down from the top.

01:52:59   I think they had much more good ideas.

01:53:00   I think-- - Yeah, but still

01:53:02   nobody bought them.

01:53:03   - Well, yeah, I know, but there's lots of reasons

01:53:04   people wanna do that, but the Metro interface

01:53:06   suffered mostly, I think, from having too much influence

01:53:11   from visual, the visual design department.

01:53:14   Like a lot of it was like a consistent visual theme

01:53:17   across the whole platforms when it couldn't have benefited

01:53:19   from a little bit more influence from the sort of

01:53:24   mechanical usability side of things.

01:53:26   And you can kind of see a little bit of that

01:53:27   in recent Apple too, where even iOS 7,

01:53:30   obviously huge amount of visual influence in the design

01:53:33   and the visual part had a usability aspect to it,

01:53:35   but it seemed clear that the original iOS,

01:53:40   you can wireframe that with a bunch of boxes

01:53:44   and say this is gonna be an interface

01:53:46   and then let loose the graphic designers on it

01:53:49   to give it spit and polish

01:53:51   and it just enhances the interface.

01:53:54   Whereas the iOS 7 thing, the visual,

01:53:59   the wireframe is useless to you.

01:54:01   Like the buttons don't even have borders on them.

01:54:02   Like you have to, the whole look has to be complete

01:54:05   to say, oh, this is what it's gonna look like.

01:54:06   You can't wireframe it,

01:54:07   'cause what do you draw for the button?

01:54:08   Like it either is the finished pixels

01:54:10   or not the finished pixels, right?

01:54:12   So Metro looked like it was entirely designed

01:54:14   as like if you're doing a magazine

01:54:15   and you wanted to have the pamphlet, the magazine,

01:54:18   and the coffee table book

01:54:20   and have a consistent theme throughout them,

01:54:22   Metro is a perfect fit.

01:54:23   But once it starts being interface that you have to use,

01:54:25   those people who come with that,

01:54:27   and maybe it's the same people,

01:54:28   aspects of the same people,

01:54:30   come more with the information architecture,

01:54:35   user interface, usability perspective

01:54:39   that is hand in hand with the look and feel of it,

01:54:42   but there's a balance between them.

01:54:44   You want it to look nice,

01:54:45   you want it to have a consistent visual theme,

01:54:46   but you also want it to be usable.

01:54:47   And I think Metro just went a little bit too far

01:54:49   into the, well, but this just looks so good

01:54:51   across all of our platforms.

01:54:52   It must be usable, and it wasn't as useful as they hoped.

01:54:56   It's funny because just yesterday I was talking with a coworker, and we have a handful of

01:55:02   coworkers that go to build every year, which is in Moscone.

01:55:05   It's only three days, but it's basically Microsoft's WWDC.

01:55:10   And unlike WWDC, the door prizes at build are not jackets.

01:55:15   Like last year they got an Xbone and a Nokia phone.

01:55:19   This year they got some sort of convertible PC, which I guess is kind of a piece of crap,

01:55:24   but it's still a whole freaking computer.

01:55:26   Well anyways, one of my coworkers is still rocking this Nokia phone from a year, a little

01:55:32   over a year ago.

01:55:33   And obviously it's a Windows phone.

01:55:35   And I was talking to him about it just yesterday, and I asked him, you know, if you were to

01:55:39   buy a new phone tomorrow, because I think he was complaining about something, I don't

01:55:44   recall specifically what.

01:55:45   And I asked him, if you were going to buy a new phone tomorrow, what would you buy?

01:55:48   You know, would you get like a, what is it, the Galaxy S6 or whatever that new hotness

01:55:53   Android phone is that I've genuinely, genuinely heard very, very good things about.

01:55:57   So I asked him, you know, would you get the Galaxy S6 or what would you get?

01:56:00   And he said, actually, no, I'd get an iPhone 6.

01:56:01   Or to be honest, I'd probably try to wait until the 6s and then I'd get that.

01:56:05   And this is a guy who loves his Surface, who issued a, getting a new MacBook Pro to replace

01:56:13   existing MacPro and instead got this just behemoth of a Dell, what do they

01:56:19   call them, like portable desktops or whatever. So it's a laptop in theory, but

01:56:25   it weighs 904 pounds. The power supply weighs about twice what my laptop does.

01:56:30   And he got that because he's a pragmatic guy and we do Windows work at work. And

01:56:35   so he thought, you know what, I'm just gonna get a Windows machine. I'm gonna get

01:56:38   this Dell. And then I asked him about the Dell as well. Are you happy with that?

01:56:42   And he said, "Well, the trackpad is unusable, the keyboard sucks, it weighs a million pounds,

01:56:48   and the power supply is worse.

01:56:49   But you know, when it's sitting at a desk connected to external monitors, and external

01:56:53   keyboard, and external mouse, it's a great machine.

01:56:55   I love it.

01:56:55   I can put seven hard drives in it, three optical drives, you know, 42 gigs of RAM, and a partridge

01:57:01   in a pear tree."

01:57:01   But anyway, I bring all this up to say that he is a guy that really does love Microsoft

01:57:07   stuff and he was telling me, "Mm-mm, I am definitely switching away from Windows Phone

01:57:12   as soon as the opportunity arises."

01:57:15   >> After today's announcement, even before today's announcement, it's easy to lose faith

01:57:18   in the future platform.

01:57:20   And you know, like, is there a bright future in Windows Phones?

01:57:25   You know, like, does it seem like the applications that I want that aren't there today are going

01:57:30   to be there tomorrow?

01:57:31   Are there going to be great new Windows Phone hardware?

01:57:34   Like we can go talk about it on app.net.

01:57:36   Yeah, like it's the same thing that happened to Apple, you know, when people lose faith

01:57:41   in a platform, it's really difficult to ever get it back.

01:57:43   And so, yeah, even people who I think would love it if there was a new Windows phone that

01:57:48   was like the current Windows phones, but better in all ways and had better software and a

01:57:51   new version of the operating system and all that, you know, that they would keep buying

01:57:54   those, especially if they thought that they would be able to go to the Windows Phone App

01:57:59   Store and get all the apps that they want.

01:58:02   But at this point, it seems clear that even if that's what you like, it's kind of like

01:58:05   me with the iPod touches, like, you know, there's not a bright future in that, maybe

01:58:11   seek your phone satisfaction elsewhere.

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