124: The Tyranny of Radio


00:00:00   Alright, so I guess do you want to get started on the actual show?

00:00:04   We do a show, you know.

00:00:05   Oh, we do?

00:00:06   This is a song about Alice.

00:00:08   Oh, is that Alice's restaurant?

00:00:11   Wow.

00:00:12   Were you seriously quoting Guthrie?

00:00:15   Arlo Guthrie?

00:00:16   Is that right?

00:00:17   We all did music podcasts in like the last week, didn't we?

00:00:19   A week or two.

00:00:20   You did one too, John?

00:00:21   Yeah, no, everyone's doing it.

00:00:24   So alright, let's do some follow-up.

00:00:26   John, why don't you tell us about LLVM IR?

00:00:29   week, it got so long ago, whenever it was, we talked about LLVM IR, which is also known

00:00:35   as bitcode in its sort of binary representation, and whether or not that helps Apple to be

00:00:40   able to move any of their platforms to different CPU architectures in the future.

00:00:45   We basically decided that it doesn't help or hurt, that it is an orthogonal concern,

00:00:52   mostly having to do with taking advantage of new instructions and new processors, being

00:00:56   Being able to remove instructions from processors when they're no longer needed, all without

00:01:00   asking developers to re-upload new binary versions of their applications and recompile

00:01:05   them for new architectures and stuff.

00:01:07   So a bunch of people sent me good links.

00:01:09   Someone sent me -- I forgot who this was, unfortunately -- a 2011 -- I think it's Usenet

00:01:15   post -- no, a mailing list post from Dan Goleman at Apple.

00:01:20   Presumably he works on the LLVM team, or did at least in 2011.

00:01:23   I'll put the link in the show notes.

00:01:25   can read it. He outlines the reasons why he thinks LLVM IR is a poor system for building

00:01:30   a platform, by which he means any system where LLVM IR would be a format in which programs

00:01:35   are stored or transmitted for subsequent use on multiple underlying architectures, which

00:01:39   is exactly the question we were asking before. Again, this is 2011, things may have changed,

00:01:44   but in general he says if you're going to make some kind of a multi-CPU architecture

00:01:50   intermediary form LLVM IR would not be it and he lists the reasons.

00:01:57   Someone named Jacob Stokelyn Olson, hope I got that right, sent us an email with some

00:02:03   more good information about what is platform specific about bitcode, what is it that makes

00:02:08   bitcode not portable.

00:02:09   It says one of the biggest sources of bitcode differences is the target ABI, meaning Application

00:02:14   Binary Interface.

00:02:16   generates functions that are able to call C functions

00:02:18   compiled by other compilers by following the ABI

00:02:21   for that platform.

00:02:21   That's basically what an ABI is like.

00:02:23   So that everything doesn't have to be compiled

00:02:24   by the same compiler.

00:02:25   You compile with one compiler

00:02:27   or have a compiled library or whatever,

00:02:28   I can call you, you can call back into me.

00:02:30   Like we all know how we're gonna call each other's functions

00:02:32   is the ABI defines how function arguments

00:02:34   and return values are laid out in memory or register

00:02:36   is like, you know, you put your address here

00:02:38   and the return value is gonna be in this register.

00:02:40   That's the ABI.

00:02:41   Everyone has to agree on that

00:02:42   or you can't call into other code.

00:02:43   And one of the requirements for a bit code

00:02:46   and for any of Apple's compiler stuff

00:02:47   is that you have to be able to compile code

00:02:49   and has to be able to call functions

00:02:50   that were compiled with another compiler,

00:02:52   even if it's just an earlier version of the same compiler.

00:02:54   Otherwise, every time a new OS came out

00:02:56   that was compiled with a new compiler,

00:02:57   everyone would have to recompile their apps

00:02:59   if the ABI changed.

00:03:00   It doesn't, and so this is a sort of hard

00:03:01   and fast requirement of what Apple does with its compilers.

00:03:05   Now, Jacob goes on.

00:03:06   "In general, the Clang front end is using

00:03:08   a combination of LLVM types and argument flags

00:03:10   to get the code generator to generate

00:03:11   the correct function calling sequence.

00:03:13   It knows how the code generator

00:03:14   if a selected target architecture behaves.

00:03:17   He says you can even get different bitcode

00:03:18   when using different ABIs

00:03:20   on the same instruction set architecture.

00:03:22   So even on a single chip,

00:03:23   you could have multiple ABIs defined

00:03:25   and you get different bitcode if you target different ABIs.

00:03:27   He ends here by saying it would be possible

00:03:30   to create LLVM IR that can be compiled

00:03:32   on multiple CB architectures only by giving up

00:03:34   on the ability to call native functions

00:03:35   compiled with other compilers.

00:03:37   You could define a virtual ABI that specifies the layouts,

00:03:40   the struct layouts and how C function calls

00:03:42   are mapped to LLVM IR.

00:03:43   This is essentially what Google's PNACL, the Portable Native Client Project, does.

00:03:48   It works since the code only has to run inside Chrome sandbox and calling functions provided

00:03:51   by Chrome.

00:03:52   So lots of theoretical possibilities, but in the practical real world of what Apple

00:03:57   uses its compilers for, bitcode and LLVM IR are not the answer to portability across platforms.

00:04:04   Okay then.

00:04:05   And why don't you tell us about what Chris Latner has been saying lately?

00:04:10   This is some info from Kai Shin, who says,

00:04:13   "Chris Latner was asked a question."

00:04:14   These are all paraphrases.

00:04:15   "Was asked a question, and I'm assuming this is a WWDC,"

00:04:17   he didn't say.

00:04:19   "Any plans to write Swift in Swift?"

00:04:20   We talked about self-hosting last week.

00:04:22   Self-hosting turns out to be the right definition.

00:04:24   I just failed to read the Wikipedia page correctly.

00:04:26   Anyway, and what he said was,

00:04:29   what Chris Latner said was,

00:04:30   "His goal is to make the best language

00:04:31   "for writing consumer-facing software, not compilers."

00:04:34   And he mentioned that if you started writing a compiler

00:04:35   in Swift, it would end up being a great language

00:04:38   for writing low-level code,

00:04:39   but inadequate for writing iOS and Mac apps, which is kind of like the politically correct

00:04:43   answer.

00:04:44   For self-hosting, I thought it would be neat.

00:04:47   It's kind of a shame that the people who are actually writing Swift are spending their

00:04:50   whole day writing C++ when they love to use this new language they've invented to do

00:04:55   their work as well.

00:04:56   And I got a lot of replies like this.

00:04:58   It's like, "No, I asked Chris Latner that and he says, 'If we did that, then Swift

00:05:02   would be a really good language for writing compilers.'"

00:05:04   And that's not what they're making.

00:05:05   They're trying to make a really good language for writing iOS and Mac apps, which technically,

00:05:09   According to a submission statement in the Apple book published on the topic, they're

00:05:12   trying to make a language that spans the range.

00:05:15   Compilers would be in that range.

00:05:16   I think it would prove the language can do that type of task.

00:05:20   But anyway, luckily we live in the age of Twitter and the new age of the open Apple,

00:05:25   not the one from the Apple II keyboard.

00:05:27   Nice.

00:05:28   Yeah.

00:05:29   And Chris Latner replied on Twitter to a thread involving us and he said, we'll put links

00:05:32   to his tweets, "Many of us would love to rewrite the Swift compiler at Swift.

00:05:36   It would crash a lot less and be a lot more dreadful for us."

00:05:39   That said, we have a ton of higher priorities that affect users of Swift.

00:05:43   Poor compiler hackers would just have to suffer for now.

00:05:45   So the cobbler's children have no shoes or whatever that expression is.

00:05:49   So contrary to the many tales of Chris Latner saying, I'm sure he did say this, that if

00:05:56   we wrote our compiler in Swift, if that's what we were using sort of to dogfood our

00:06:02   language, we would end up making a language that's really good at writing compilers, which

00:06:04   Which is true if they did it to exclusion or everything else, but in the grand scheme

00:06:08   of things, Chris Latterly says that many of us would love to write the compiler in Swift.

00:06:12   Like, of course they would like that they're making this new language, of course they like

00:06:14   the language, of course they like to use it in their work, but it is not really a high

00:06:17   priority, their main priority of course is making it a great language to write iOS and

00:06:21   Mac apps, because that's the most important part of Swift.

00:06:25   So there you have it.

00:06:26   I think this is a great example of like, direct, accurate quotes from people can be misleading

00:06:31   if the only thing you ever hear is that, and which is why I think Chris felt the need to

00:06:34   say even though I said that and it's true it's not the entire story like there are many dimensions to

00:06:39   all these decisions it's not like oh Chris Latner hates Swift and would never want to write his

00:06:42   compiler in it or the reverse Chris Latner would love to write it in Swift but mean old apple won't

00:06:46   let him like everyone is always looking for the sensational headline type story especially if

00:06:50   something gets repeated around and around and if everyone in apple like if the people who the

00:06:55   source of information were silent any one of these things could have like spiraled into like three

00:06:59   years from now it becomes accepted wisdom that Chris Latner never wanted to write the compiler

00:07:03   and Swift, which is just BS.

00:07:05   And I just love the fact, in the age of Twitter,

00:07:07   he can say, you know what, tweet, tweet, done.

00:07:10   I have now sort of like adjusted the record

00:07:13   to more accurately represent the complex nuanced position

00:07:17   that I have.

00:07:18   And you can do that in two tweets, right?

00:07:19   Combined with all the things he apparently said to people,

00:07:21   WLDC.

00:07:23   - That is yet another example of a whole new Apple PR world,

00:07:27   which is exciting.

00:07:29   Final bit of follow up,

00:07:30   why don't you tell us about Trim Support?

00:07:32   I think it was also last episode where we talked about trim force, the command that

00:07:36   will let you enable trim on your SSDs even though Apple doesn't want to and it has that

00:07:40   big scary warning that says, "You can enable it, but if you lose data, don't blame us."

00:07:44   So 10.10.4 is out now.

00:07:47   It has this thing in it, I believe.

00:07:48   I upgraded it at work.

00:07:49   I didn't upgrade it at home yet.

00:07:50   I didn't look for the command, but I'm assuming it's there.

00:07:53   And the last show I said, "You know, like, I'm not going to use it until I have problems."

00:07:58   And I had said something like, "I know probably people have the same SSD as me and they have

00:08:01   trim-enabled and everything is fine, but I don't want to be the guinea pig and I'm not

00:08:05   going to take the risk until I have problems.

00:08:07   And a bunch of people sent me links to a couple of stories that describe some of the solid

00:08:15   state drives that do have problems with the trim command.

00:08:17   If you enable trim on them, they accidentally erase the wrong blocks of data and just destroy

00:08:22   your data for you.

00:08:24   And on that list of drives that may or may not have this problem according to various

00:08:27   people's stories is my drive.

00:08:30   And so I'm very glad that I didn't enable TRIM and now I'm probably not going to enable

00:08:34   TRIM.

00:08:35   I don't know the technical details of the thing, like does it depend on firmware version,

00:08:39   is it just for queued TRIM requests or for all of them, or some people think it doesn't

00:08:44   matter that Drive reports that supports queued TRIM commands, but it really doesn't.

00:08:49   And most of the stories involve Linux, not OS X, so I don't know what to think, but safe

00:08:53   bet, don't mess with TRIM force unless you're feeling adventurous and don't mind losing

00:08:57   any data or unless you have some amount of information that you're sure that like other

00:09:02   people are doing this it's safe it's been taught or tested so yeah I'm kind of leaving

00:09:07   my drive the way it is for now. And for the record don't you have a very popular and well-regarded

00:09:12   Samsung SSD? Yeah it's like super expensive it's a terabyte it's their it's their latest

00:09:18   greatest best model and you know it works. It's an 850 Pro? Yeah it's the 850 Pro. That's

00:09:23   That's a very common, popular, well-regarded SSD.

00:09:27   That's a little scary that that's on that list.

00:09:29   - Well, I mean, it's scary,

00:09:31   but the OSes are doing the right thing.

00:09:33   It's blacklisted in Linux.

00:09:34   I'm assuming Windows does the right thing.

00:09:35   OS X does the right thing with it.

00:09:37   The right thing, in this case, turns out to be luck.

00:09:38   Apple didn't test it and verify that it behaves correctly,

00:09:40   so no trim for you, right?

00:09:42   And it's bad because we know that eventually

00:09:45   the thing's gonna fill up and slow down and everything,

00:09:47   but it's better than losing data, so I don't know.

00:09:50   This is thread that you can follow.

00:09:52   I put a link to a comment thread in Ars Technica that

00:09:55   has links that you can chase down to a Samsung bug reporting

00:09:59   website where Linux users are complaining about it.

00:10:02   And Samsung's like, this isn't our problem.

00:10:03   Linux is open source.

00:10:04   Fix it yourself or whatever.

00:10:07   That's not what they say.

00:10:08   They basically end up saying, it's not a supported platform.

00:10:11   That's what they end up saying.

00:10:12   And they mention open source in that.

00:10:13   And people are like, what are you saying?

00:10:14   Because it's open source, we have to fix it ourselves.

00:10:16   What it comes down to is Samsung doesn't care

00:10:17   that it doesn't work on Linux.

00:10:18   But OS X, that's an Apple's court.

00:10:21   Apple can validate this or not, and Apple can file bugs,

00:10:24   or, 'cause anyone can file bugs against it,

00:10:26   like they can enable it on OS X

00:10:27   and you get a reproduction of a problem

00:10:29   and say, "Hey, your drive with this firmware

00:10:31   does this thing wrong."

00:10:32   I don't know, anyway, I'm happy with my SSD.

00:10:35   It's still really fast, it's still nice and quiet,

00:10:38   it's still got a terabyte of storage.

00:10:39   As far as I'm aware, it has not corrupted my data yet,

00:10:42   so, so far so good.

00:10:44   - Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

00:10:47   Wasn't the whole point of the more advanced SSD controller,

00:10:51   starting with the Sand Forest thing forever ago.

00:10:53   Wasn't the whole point of that to kind of like

00:10:56   use different tricks, like different leveling techniques

00:10:59   and everything to keep drive performance pretty good

00:11:02   even without trim support?

00:11:03   - All those things are true, that they're trying

00:11:06   to make performance better by doing tricks,

00:11:07   but you need to have trim because when you,

00:11:11   that episode we talked about trim,

00:11:12   when the operating system deletes a file,

00:11:14   it doesn't go and overwrite every block with zeros

00:11:17   or it doesn't tell the SSD that all those blocks are gone.

00:11:21   It just updates like a single little piece of information

00:11:24   and its file system metadata structure that says,

00:11:26   you know what, this area that was previously taken

00:11:28   is now free, so it updates a bitmap thing

00:11:31   and an HFS+ or some other metadata and some other,

00:11:33   and the only thing that gets written to the disk,

00:11:35   as far as the disk mechanism is concerned,

00:11:36   it sees right to this area of the disk,

00:11:39   and that area of the disk is the metadata area.

00:11:41   It's not actually touching the data of the file.

00:11:43   It just says, oh, I received a write to this metadata area.

00:11:45   The disk has no idea what that write is.

00:11:48   It just says that's write to address 123.

00:11:50   It has no idea what's in address 123.

00:11:52   It has no idea that address 123 is the thing

00:11:54   that tells you that these blocks are allocated.

00:11:56   It doesn't know where those blocks are.

00:11:57   It doesn't understand the file system.

00:11:59   It's just a big block addressable storage device.

00:12:02   The SSD mechanism has no way to know,

00:12:06   oh, by the file system writing that piece of information,

00:12:09   what that means is all these blocks

00:12:11   that belong to this one gig file are now technically free.

00:12:14   I should feel free to reuse them for any other rights that get sent to me.

00:12:17   It doesn't know that.

00:12:18   It's just like, if it sees a write come in, it says, "Where can I put this data?

00:12:21   Where can I put this data?"

00:12:22   It doesn't think it can put it where that 1 gig file was, because the only write that

00:12:26   got sent was the "Hey, write to address 123 with these numbers."

00:12:30   It doesn't know what those numbers mean, that 1 gig of space is now being freed up.

00:12:33   That's what the TRMM command is for, to send it to say, "By the way, the operating system

00:12:38   would say, 'Write to this area of the disk to note that this file is gone now, and also

00:12:42   send the disk controller a command to mark all of these blocks of data as you can use

00:12:48   those again if a subsequent write comes in.

00:12:50   So there is literally no way that the drive can know, it's a different layer of the storage

00:12:55   hard, the drive can know that.

00:12:56   So inevitably, without TRIM, no matter what tricks you do, everything will fill up, which

00:13:00   will mean every single write also involves clearing out some area first.

00:13:05   Our first sponsor this week is Cards Against Humanity.

00:13:09   And they asked us not to read a sponsor read and instead sent Jon another toaster to review.

00:13:14   [music]

00:13:25   Jon, what is the toaster this week?

00:13:26   This week's toaster is another one from Black & Decker, model T-01322SBD.

00:13:33   This thing is a two-knob, fairly small toaster.

00:13:36   I remember we had the three knob blackened decker early on, and it was kind of like middle

00:13:40   of the road.

00:13:41   This two knob thing does most of the bad things that have been discussed previously in all

00:13:46   other toasters, right?

00:13:47   It's a nice tour of things that are wrong with toaster ovens.

00:13:50   So you like it.

00:13:52   Yeah, so it's got two knobs, one of which is a timer knob that you have to repeatedly

00:13:56   turn to a precise angle for consistent toasting.

00:13:59   That's a common flaw.

00:14:01   The other knob also has to be in the right mode.

00:14:03   So you still have to make sure two knobs are adjusted to the right thing to make it to

00:14:06   toast anything you gotta make sure the top one's on toast because if you just

00:14:08   turn the bottom one oh I forgot to turn the top one it was on bacon I'm slowly

00:14:12   making my bread warm instead of toasting it it's got a single heating element on

00:14:16   the top and the bottom right in the middle they are shielded at least so

00:14:19   that's good but the single heating on top and bottom are just not adequate for

00:14:23   a toaster of this size leading to a ridiculous five minute plus toast time I

00:14:27   thought it was broken I tried it multiple times maybe the bread was a

00:14:30   little bit cold maybe it was thicker like crazy long toast time it's just got

00:14:34   One helmet on top, one helmet on the bottom,

00:14:35   there's just not enough for a toaster of the size.

00:14:37   It's not a big toaster,

00:14:38   but whatever it is, it's not getting the job done.

00:14:40   Really, really thin wire rack.

00:14:42   Like I feel like I could crumple it up in my hand,

00:14:45   that kind of thing, you know, not that it matters.

00:14:47   It's not like the bread is gonna fall through the rack,

00:14:49   but sort of like the, I was gonna say intangibles,

00:14:52   but it's not, it's the opposite, it's tangible.

00:14:54   Like the things that signal quality and durability,

00:14:57   that really thin rack is not it.

00:14:59   The door doesn't really open all the way to 90 degrees.

00:15:03   like it opens almost to 90 degrees,

00:15:05   and at the limit of its travel,

00:15:07   it's like springy and bendy,

00:15:08   it felt like it was gonna break off,

00:15:10   it's just not a nice feeling door.

00:15:12   The crumb tray that's underneath,

00:15:14   like a little metal crumb tape,

00:15:16   you have to tilt the crumb tray to get it out,

00:15:17   another flaw that we've seen in other toasters,

00:15:19   which is terrible because if you're not careful,

00:15:21   you'll tilt it and just spill all the crumbs

00:15:22   that are on the crumb tray back into the toaster,

00:15:24   and now how do you get them out?

00:15:25   It's the whole point of the crumb tray,

00:15:27   you're supposed to take the crumb tray out

00:15:28   with the crumbs on it and dump them

00:15:29   so you don't have to take your whole toaster

00:15:30   over the garbage or sink or shake it

00:15:32   to get the crumbs out.

00:15:33   I mean, it's not as bad as that hybrid toaster,

00:15:35   which was just terrible.

00:15:35   Like if you bought this, it would be okay.

00:15:38   It would get the job done.

00:15:39   The three knob black conductor is way better.

00:15:41   I didn't look at the price of this one.

00:15:42   What is the price on this?

00:15:43   - 38 bucks on Amazon right now.

00:15:45   - It seems, I don't know what the three knob one was.

00:15:47   The three knob one was better than this one

00:15:48   in all possible ways.

00:15:50   This is not a great toaster.

00:15:51   It's like, and I was in a department store recently

00:15:54   looking at like the toaster oven section.

00:15:56   - Of course you were.

00:15:57   - A lot of the ones that were in there,

00:15:59   I had actually reviewed.

00:16:00   So that was interesting.

00:16:01   I was just looking at them again to survey the field of all these things we're seeing.

00:16:04   Am I just getting crappy toasters?

00:16:06   Because still, none of them have been as good as my super expensive toaster.

00:16:09   And even my super expensive toaster I have complaints about.

00:16:11   So I saw the fancier version of my super expensive toaster in the store.

00:16:15   It has crappy knobs too.

00:16:16   They're better than my knobs a little bit, but still pretty crappy.

00:16:19   Lots of just terrible knobs in very expensive toasters.

00:16:21   It's not hard, people.

00:16:22   Remember when we had the Hamilton Beach one that actually had good knobs even though they

00:16:27   felt good to turn, even though you couldn't tell where the heck they were pointing?

00:16:30   always blow it. Yeah there was no indicator. There was but it's really hard

00:16:33   to see. They always blow it in some way like lots of bad doors like if I was if

00:16:39   I could talk to the people who are designing toasters like I understand you

00:16:42   have to make it cheaply you know you have to have your margins I'm not saying

00:16:45   every toaster has to be $200 right? I think you can make a decent 40 or $50

00:16:50   toaster if you just concentrate on the right things make make the controls

00:16:54   reasonable it doesn't cost any more money to have a good control you don't

00:16:58   have to put a fancy LCD screen or whatever, if you're just going to have a bunch of knobs,

00:17:01   just don't make the mistakes of like having to turn a little ticking thing to the right

00:17:04   angle every time.

00:17:05   Oh, and by the way, this toaster also ticks.

00:17:07   It's a quieter tick, but it does tick.

00:17:10   Like having buttons, like I feel like you can do a reasonable set of controls that combines

00:17:15   the best of knobs and buttons.

00:17:17   Have a door that feels good to open and close.

00:17:19   Have a wire rack that feels like it's sturdy.

00:17:21   Does that really cost that much more?

00:17:22   It's like it's a box with a door and some knobs and a tray.

00:17:27   Concentrate on those things.

00:17:29   Make a nice door.

00:17:30   Make some nice knobs.

00:17:31   Make a nice tray.

00:17:33   I don't think that's asking for everything.

00:17:35   And I feel like it's almost like they should take some lessons from kids' toys, which also

00:17:40   have to be cheap, but they also have to be durable.

00:17:42   The toys on the doors and stuff, on the little Fisher Price toys and everything, feel so

00:17:47   much better than all these toasters.

00:17:48   So I continue to be disappointed with the state of toaster ovens.

00:17:51   This one is not as bad as the hybrid toaster, which is the new low bar, but I do not recommend

00:17:55   it.

00:17:56   - I mean, it seems like there's only basically two prices

00:18:00   that toaster ovens are.

00:18:01   They're either $40 or $200.

00:18:04   And it seems like among the $40 ones that you've reviewed,

00:18:08   that they almost all, like you can get good elements

00:18:12   in all of them.

00:18:13   Like, if you take the best parts of each one

00:18:16   and put them all together, you could make a good toaster.

00:18:19   So it seems like it is--

00:18:20   - Or an okay toaster.

00:18:21   Like, we're not asking for it, it's not amazing,

00:18:23   but there's nothing in it that's embarrassing.

00:18:25   doesn't feel like it's gonna fall apart.

00:18:27   It does the job consistently and in a reasonable manner.

00:18:32   - Now this toaster I see on the front here,

00:18:34   it's advertising that it has even toast technology.

00:18:38   Were you able to test the even toast technology

00:18:40   and does it stand up to that claim?

00:18:41   - It was reasonably even, but for five minutes,

00:18:44   it's probably pretty easy to do even toasting

00:18:46   if you do it super slow.

00:18:49   When you have a really hot element,

00:18:50   that's when you get hot spots.

00:18:51   If you take five minutes, sure, yeah,

00:18:53   it's nice and even across the bread.

00:18:54   And being right in the middle of each thing probably helps.

00:18:58   Because if you have four elements,

00:18:59   if you have two on bottom and two on top

00:19:00   and you just have the two pieces of toast,

00:19:03   if you don't sort of center them over the elements,

00:19:05   but this toaster is small enough

00:19:06   and there's only one element and it's in the middle

00:19:08   that if you just stick toast in there and don't think about it

00:19:10   you're probably gonna stick it somewhere around the middle,

00:19:11   back to front wise and it will come out even.

00:19:13   So it was fine.

00:19:14   If you wanna wait five minutes for your toast,

00:19:17   it will get the job done.

00:19:18   - And finally, did the staff at the store recognize you?

00:19:22   No, this was just a Kohl's.

00:19:25   But how many professional toaster oven reviewers are there in the world?

00:19:29   Maybe like three?

00:19:30   Yeah, I don't know.

00:19:32   No one came to help me at all, which is what Kohl's is like.

00:19:35   I didn't need any help, which is fine.

00:19:39   You mentioned the two price ranges, like $40 and $200.

00:19:42   The other thing that kills me is the $200 ones don't feel like $200 appliances.

00:19:45   Again, if you had to make a metal box with a door and knobs and you gave me $200 to do

00:19:49   it, I would make damn sure that those doors...

00:19:51   The doors are better.

00:19:52   The doors have little rubber stops in them, they open and close in a reasonable way except

00:19:56   for the door on my actual toaster which still springs closed and tries to burn you.

00:19:59   But like I said, I think that's just my particular unit and not all of this model.

00:20:05   Because everyone else I ask who has this toaster, they say, "No, my door stays open fine."

00:20:08   But anyway, the doors are better, but the knobs, they're just… and maybe it's

00:20:12   just the Breville ones.

00:20:13   How can you make such a terrible knob?

00:20:14   It feels like a snapped together plastic model from the 80s.

00:20:18   The knobs are just barely hanging on there.

00:20:20   they feel terrible to turn, they're wobbly.

00:20:22   Like on the fancy one they made them like fake chrome,

00:20:24   like shiny, you know, again like a snap together model,

00:20:27   like when you have the chrome finished wheels

00:20:30   on your snap together model car.

00:20:32   Like they're shiny plastic for $250.

00:20:36   I'm not saying you have to give me a metal knob,

00:20:38   but give me a knob that at least feels good to turn

00:20:40   and doesn't wobble in my hand.

00:20:42   - Well this is, I mean this is like,

00:20:44   what you've identified here is like,

00:20:46   this applies to so many different categories of things.

00:20:48   where like, you know, well, thanks to Left of Cards

00:20:51   Against Humanity for sponsoring our show once again.

00:20:54   So what, this applies--

00:20:56   - Way to get out of the ad.

00:20:56   - Yeah, so, well, 'cause I'm gonna run over the time

00:20:59   that I allot for the ads now, so.

00:21:01   ♫ Syracuse and Toaster

00:21:04   ♫ Reviews all day every single day

00:21:06   ♫ Hear 'em talk about Toaster

00:21:09   ♫ And I'm whisked away

00:21:11   ♫ I can love my toaster

00:21:12   But like, this applies to so many things,

00:21:14   like, you know, you have, you have like,

00:21:17   It used to have like, you know, cheap, good,

00:21:20   and then commercial/pro in so many things.

00:21:23   Electronics, you know, appliances, stuff like that.

00:21:26   And now you still have cheap, good,

00:21:29   and commercial/pro price points on things,

00:21:33   but it seems like the middle tier there,

00:21:35   like the prosumer kind of level,

00:21:39   that in so many things is now just like

00:21:42   the same cheap garbage that the cheap one is made out of

00:21:46   doesn't last any longer, isn't of much higher quality,

00:21:49   just has more bells and whistles on it.

00:21:51   But it's still a cheap, quality thing

00:21:54   that you're just paying $200 for.

00:21:56   - And I think toaster ovens in particular,

00:21:58   the original Hyper Critical episode about this

00:22:00   was titled "Worse and More Diverse"

00:22:01   because there are so many more toasters

00:22:03   in all different shapes and sizes,

00:22:05   but all of them are crappier.

00:22:06   And I don't think that's true across the board.

00:22:08   The great example is any Japanese car,

00:22:11   Honda Toyota cars, the knobs and stuff in those

00:22:13   feel great compared to toaster knobs.

00:22:15   They're not as nice as obviously BMW or Lexus or Mercedes controls, but they are really,

00:22:20   really good.

00:22:21   They put every toaster to shame.

00:22:22   And you can get that in a Honda Fit for like $15,000.

00:22:24   The cheapest car you can get.

00:22:26   They still have nice turn stalks.

00:22:29   In the grand scheme of things, nothing like just these pieces of crap that are on a $200

00:22:34   toaster.

00:22:35   I feel like it is possible at the price points they want to hit if they cared about it, because

00:22:40   you don't have to do all the bells and whistles.

00:22:41   You don't have to do the actual expensive things of having more healing elements, of

00:22:44   having a little computer and having an LCD screen and crap like that.

00:22:47   Like we understand you have to hit a price point.

00:22:50   Pair it down to just heating elements, simple, you know, mechanical analog controls for them,

00:22:56   a box and a door, and just concentrate on the few elements that you touch and make them

00:22:59   nice.

00:23:00   And that's what the cheap car companies do.

00:23:01   These cars don't have fancy features.

00:23:02   A Honda Fit does not have a camera that shows you all around your car, but composited out

00:23:06   of a bunch of cameras at the corners of your car so you can park without scraping your

00:23:09   --

00:23:10   It's such a great feature.

00:23:11   -- your wheels and things.

00:23:12   I know it is.

00:23:13   money for that. They have the money for a bunch of plastic on a dashboard, a plastic

00:23:18   wheel, and they find a way to make parts that are cheap, that are simple to assemble, and

00:23:25   that feel not like pieces of crap.

00:23:28   Okay. So, what's our first topic this week?

00:23:31   We have follow-up from the chat room. Do you want to – I missed this one. I'm assuming

00:23:35   Casey put this in there.

00:23:36   I have no idea what you're talking about.

00:23:37   The SSG thing.

00:23:38   Yeah, if they say it in the chat room, we say it's real-time follow-up from our secret

00:23:42   anonymous tipster who foolishly hangs out in the chatroom every week or as far as we're

00:23:46   able to tell, same guy, says "Apple Samsung 800, 8xxx meaning the 840, 850, whatever series

00:23:52   firmware is not the same as retail drives, we fix the bugs." I don't know what that means

00:23:57   because I bought mine from Amazon or whatever, it's not Apple's thing, but does Apple ship

00:24:01   devices with Samsung 800 series SSDs in them? Well they have like Samsung manufactured sticks

00:24:08   in their various, like the Mac Pro, I think that's a Samsung SSD stick and stuff like

00:24:14   that, but it's not packaged in a 2.5 inch drive enclosure with the serial ATA port in

00:24:18   the back. It's just like, it's in those little sticks they put in all their computers.

00:24:22   So that counts as like the 800 series, even though obviously it looks nothing like the

00:24:25   things you buy from retail?

00:24:26   Yeah, I mean, yeah, the tips are saying now, those are just variants of normal Samsung

00:24:31   SSDs, so yeah, I'm sure like, you know, the Samsung giant serial number, you know, MSATA

00:24:36   thing is, say, a rebranded 840 Pro or something.

00:24:40   Yeah, well, that doesn't help me or doesn't help anyone else who bought a, you know, commercial

00:24:44   third party, buy it directly from, you know, Samsung branded thing that looks like a, you

00:24:50   know, little two and a half inch drive but actually has a bunch of chips inside it. But

00:24:53   anyway, yeah, Apple tends to do that. That's what it means. You know, Apple qualifies their

00:24:56   drives to work with trim or not. And, you know, they test them and they make sure they

00:25:02   and so if you're buying third-party stuff,

00:25:04   Apple's default is, "No, we won't enable trim for you

00:25:07   "because we haven't tested your thing,

00:25:09   "and be careful if you haven't tested it either."

00:25:12   I don't know if people have the option

00:25:15   of trying to fix the firmware

00:25:16   in their Samsung 850 retail drives.

00:25:18   I would not recommend that.

00:25:19   - And the tipster is saying that, yes,

00:25:23   the Apple drives are just variants of normal Samsung SSDs.

00:25:28   - Have you guys ever run a firmware update

00:25:30   on a disk of any sort?

00:25:32   - I think I have in the past.

00:25:34   You used to have to boot into DOS to do it,

00:25:36   like give you a floppy drive, do you remember that?

00:25:38   And so I would use like virtual PC,

00:25:41   this is back in the day, you know, before x86 Max,

00:25:43   use virtual PC to be able to use

00:25:47   the virtual floppy drive thing to get it to see my drive.

00:25:50   It was this convoluted, terrifying thing.

00:25:52   But at that point, the drive is empty.

00:25:54   I would make sure, before I attempt this,

00:25:56   get all the data off the drive,

00:25:57   so then I guess worst case scenario,

00:25:59   I brick it and have to send it back

00:26:01   and they send me a new one, but I have done it.

00:26:03   - I don't think I have.

00:26:04   - Yeah, I did it like once and it was one of those,

00:26:07   it was like, it was embarrassingly late in technology

00:26:10   that it was requiring me to use a DOS floppy.

00:26:13   It was like to the point where I had to figure out

00:26:15   how to boot a DOS floppy image

00:26:17   because the computer I had of course didn't have,

00:26:19   it was like 2007, it was like something very late time

00:26:23   that's like, wow, we stopped using floppies

00:26:25   like 10 years beforehand.

00:26:26   - You have to edit your config.sys, right?

00:26:28   (laughing)

00:26:29   - Wow, that's, I actually never was brave enough

00:26:31   to do that, even when I was a PC guy.

00:26:32   - I think that the line was in an Apple ad,

00:26:34   back when they were trying to make fun of DOS,

00:26:36   which was, you know, the appropriate thing to do,

00:26:38   because it was ridiculous at the time,

00:26:39   but they had some kid in the ad say,

00:26:41   you need to add it to your config.sys.

00:26:42   - Nice.

00:26:43   So, Apple Music.

00:26:48   - Yeah.

00:26:48   - Have you guys listened to Taylor Swift yet?

00:26:50   - Nope.

00:26:51   - What do you mean yet?

00:26:52   Most of us have heard Taylor Swift already,

00:26:54   but I like the fact that it took a large new product

00:26:57   initiative from Apple to get you to listen to the songs that everyone has been listening

00:27:01   to.

00:27:02   To get me to listen to like the number one selling album of like the last two years or

00:27:06   whatever.

00:27:07   Yeah.

00:27:08   Yeah, well, yeah.

00:27:09   So it seems like a pretty good service.

00:27:11   I mean, did you guys, have you guys used streaming services before?

00:27:15   Mm-hmm.

00:27:16   Yeah, I'm a Spotify user and a fairly devout one.

00:27:20   Devout enough that I'm happy enough with it that I've never tried Beats.

00:27:24   I've never tried RDO.

00:27:26   That doesn't mean they're not better, it doesn't mean that I wouldn't like them more, it's

00:27:30   just I've been happy with Spotify and I haven't had any compelling reason to mess with my

00:27:34   setup.

00:27:35   And so I've been fiddling with Apple Music over the last 24 hours as we record this,

00:27:40   we're recording it on Wednesday night and Apple Music launched roughly midday yesterday.

00:27:46   And I didn't play much with the streaming portion of it until today.

00:27:51   I was mostly just listening to Beats 1 because I was really curious to hear how it was.

00:27:56   Like Beats 1 I thought it was entertaining. I thought the music selections were good and varied

00:28:00   pretty early on

00:28:03   They played a

00:28:06   Non English song which took me aback and then I thought you know what that's pretty cool

00:28:11   Actually if this really is worldwide I forget the slogan they use over and over and over again

00:28:16   But apparently not enough yeah, that's right because it would have been burned in by now

00:28:23   But anyways, since it's a worldwide radio station or so they say

00:28:26   The fact that they were playing non English songs, I thought was kind of cool

00:28:31   I don't know Zane Lowe or any of the other DJs from anything, but they all seem pretty entertaining

00:28:37   Today, however, I started playing with what I would call the Spotify like

00:28:42   features of

00:28:45   Apple music so that is to say I want to play

00:28:48   such-and-such album by such-and-such artist right now and

00:28:53   And it worked just fine, but I've been thinking about it a lot since I've been fiddling with

00:29:00   it around lunchtime today, and I haven't come up with a good way to describe it, but I don't

00:29:05   like it.

00:29:07   And I feel the best way I can describe it, and I can't decide if this was the opinion

00:29:14   I had before I even tried it, and so now I'm just fitting my experience to my previously

00:29:19   held opinion, but it felt like it's a bunch of stuff just stapled onto the side of iTunes,

00:29:25   which is already relatively confusing to me to begin with because I don't use iTunes very

00:29:30   often.

00:29:31   And it just felt weird.

00:29:34   Whereas Spotify, it has many of its own UI issues.

00:29:38   It has many, many problems and many, many poor choices.

00:29:43   But by and large, it does not take me long to figure out how to go to a particular album

00:29:48   to a particular artist or to perform a particular operation.

00:29:52   Whereas, as an example, I wanted to listen to,

00:29:56   or I wanted to see the activity-based playlists that they had set up.

00:30:00   A friend of the show, Underscore, had snarkily pointed out that

00:30:04   they have a "Getting It On" playlist, I believe it's called.

00:30:08   And so I was going to look and see what these playlists were and what options they were,

00:30:11   and it took me literally five minutes to find it.

00:30:14   Because I thought it would be in the, either the playlists section,

00:30:17   section, but no, that was my playlist in iTunes, traditional iTunes. Then I thought it would

00:30:22   be in the "For You" section, but no, they weren't for me. And so I went looking in every

00:30:28   section except the section that it was in, which was, I think, new. Because clearly all

00:30:32   these playlists should be in the "New" section. And so, I don't know, I just, I'm not saying

00:30:38   I don't like it, I'm not saying I'm not going to switch to it. I very well may switch to

00:30:42   But my initial impression is Beats 1 thumbs up, Apple Music as a streaming on-demand service,

00:30:49   thumb to the side.

00:30:51   Haven't really decided yet.

00:30:52   You know, when Apple did photos recently, I felt like they kind of wiped the slate clean

00:30:59   of all their past efforts.

00:31:02   Like they had accumulated a lot of history with Aperture and iPhoto, and clearly they

00:31:05   were like, "All right, do over.

00:31:06   Start over from scratch.

00:31:08   Let's bring only what we need with us and give it a sort of migration path.

00:31:13   And the same thing with the photo streams, they kind of kept those on, but they get reconceptualized

00:31:17   a little bit in the new service with an icon photo library.

00:31:22   It was their chance to put a big reset button.

00:31:25   And Apple Music, product naming-wise, looks like, oh, what crap are we doing with iTunes

00:31:30   and iTunes match and this, that, and the other thing.

00:31:32   Apple Music, let's reset, new name, we're just going to start over.

00:31:36   But as Casey just pointed out, they didn't.

00:31:38   What they did was took the existing mess, which involves iTunes and a bunch of other

00:31:41   crap, and added more stuff to it.

00:31:44   Even iTunes Match is still around and is confusingly different.

00:31:47   We should put this link in the show.

00:31:48   Not Serenity had a good article today explaining, "Do I need iTunes Match if I have Apple Music?

00:31:53   Do I just want one or the other?

00:31:55   Are there differences?

00:31:56   What are those differences?"

00:31:57   It's super confusing.

00:31:58   That's before you even get into, "So the little icon on my iPhone has changed and now I can't

00:32:02   find anything anymore.

00:32:03   And by the way, iTunes 12.2 continues, you know, doesn't even have Apple Music in it,

00:32:07   but continues to have more different changes.

00:32:10   It doesn't have Apple Music, right?

00:32:11   Like it doesn't have the streaming stuff in it?

00:32:13   iTunes, now, iTunes on the desktop, the new version that came out like a few hours after

00:32:17   Beats launched, sorry, Apple Music launched, that has everything.

00:32:20   Oh, all right.

00:32:21   So it must have been one before it had been updated because the one came out for iOS first.

00:32:25   Yeah, yeah.

00:32:26   But anyway, like, this is, these are features on top of all the existing other features.

00:32:30   Some features are superseded and replaced by new ones.

00:32:32   Some are not, and some things have different names and they're in different places, so

00:32:36   it's not the sort of clean sheet reset.

00:32:38   Which makes some sense because it is an additive thing.

00:32:40   It's like, well we already had the thing where you could download and buy music, and we already

00:32:43   had the thing where you could rip your CDs and organize music, and we already had all

00:32:46   these other things in podcasts and syncing your iOS devices and all the other crap you

00:32:50   can do in iTunes.

00:32:51   But we didn't have a streaming service, now we have a streaming service and we also have

00:32:55   this radio station and we also have, like, boy there's a lot of crap in there.

00:32:59   And for someone like me who doesn't, like I have Spotify installed and I've used it

00:33:02   a few times, but for someone like me who's not, like I tend to just want to listen to

00:33:05   my music.

00:33:07   All this other stuff is, I look at all this other stuff and think, in what way does this

00:33:14   either help or hurt my ability to listen to music the way I normally listen to it?

00:33:18   Is it going to, for example, scramble all my album and artist metadata as some people

00:33:21   are reporting the new version of iTunes has done to them, if they had previously used

00:33:24   it, iTunes match?

00:33:25   Will it let me say get higher bit rate DRMP versions of songs that I ripped from CD many

00:33:30   years ago?

00:33:31   iTunes match did that.

00:33:32   That was a good feature.

00:33:33   It was a plus.

00:33:34   Will it let me not have access to all of my music on my iPhone but not have to have all

00:33:38   my music on my iPhone?

00:33:39   Again, iTunes match did that.

00:33:40   That was a plus.

00:33:41   Apple Music stuff I feel like is neutral or a minus because it makes it harder for me

00:33:44   to find things that I want to find and the sort of teething bugs .0 release or whatever

00:33:51   even though this is kind of like Beats Music 2, or whatever their service was called before,

00:33:56   make me worry about it.

00:33:58   So I did sign up for the trial, but I'm a little bit afraid of the new version of iTunes

00:34:02   on my Mac, and I guess maybe I'll look into the streaming things and try it, but it's

00:34:08   not a slam on their service, I can't really judge it because I'm not a streaming music

00:34:11   kind of person, like I was never into any of the other ones I installed either.

00:34:14   I'm mostly looking at it as a potential harm to my existing music listening habits, which

00:34:21   you know, to Apple's credit, they're still trying to support that.

00:34:23   Like, you can still listen to music that way if you want to.

00:34:26   And maybe you might still want to subscribe to Apple Music for the iCloud syncing features,

00:34:31   but maybe not if you already subscribe to iTunes Match, which is way cheaper.

00:34:36   So anyway, I feel like this is a very confusing situation for me, and I'm not sure what to

00:34:40   make of it.

00:34:41   Yeah, it seems like, you know, I totally agree with you on, you know, the problem of bolting

00:34:46   all this onto their existing very complicated iTunes/music setup that, you know, they have

00:34:53   so much legacy there. And, you know, comparing it with Photos was apt, you know, but, you

00:34:58   know, with Photos, they did a clean start and that was a massive engineering effort,

00:35:03   it seems. I mean, it seemed like it, first of all, I think it was late, but it was also,

00:35:09   you know, just it was a massive effort, I would imagine, to get to basically, you know,

00:35:16   try to replace iPhoto and Aperture with this new thing

00:35:19   and do a pretty decent job at a 1.0,

00:35:21   plus this massive cloud backend stuff

00:35:23   and having iOS match up the whole time with the desktop,

00:35:27   like that's just a massive effort

00:35:29   that had to go into photos to make that happen.

00:35:32   I would love if they did the same thing with iTunes

00:35:35   and deprecate iTunes and have a new app

00:35:38   just called Music, even on Mac,

00:35:41   and have a new music.app that only does music,

00:35:45   and even leave videos and stuff, make a separate videos app.

00:35:51   Just like they split off iBooks, and that was fine.

00:35:54   They even now kicked audiobooks out of the music on iOS

00:35:59   and left that in the iBooks app now.

00:36:01   They can do the same thing on Mac.

00:36:03   Basically, slowly divest iTunes of the things

00:36:06   that it does that aren't music.

00:36:08   - And fold iTunes Match into it.

00:36:10   - The fact that iTunes Match still exists,

00:36:13   there should be one new thing that encompasses,

00:36:15   functionality is fine, but there should be one new thing

00:36:18   with various different price points and features.

00:36:21   It should supersede iTunes Match.

00:36:22   In the same way that photo streams still exist

00:36:25   in the new photos things, but they're re-conceptualized

00:36:27   as a share section of iPhoto.

00:36:29   So if you had existing ones, they're there,

00:36:30   and you can make new ones, but it's like,

00:36:32   it's under a new umbrella, a new name,

00:36:35   a new pricing structure, there's just one thing

00:36:37   you have to know about, not seven layers of legacy things

00:36:39   that you have to know about and understand

00:36:40   how they interact.

00:36:42   That's how it should be presented and conceptualized.

00:36:44   And like you said, the implementation-wise,

00:36:46   if you're gonna try to conceptualize it,

00:36:47   is that you also have to get it out of the app

00:36:49   that you use to sync your iPod Shuffle or whatever.

00:36:52   - Exactly, and I think that's the main problem,

00:36:54   is they have all this massive legacy stuff

00:36:56   that iTunes still has to do.

00:36:58   There's still nothing else that can do a lot of these roles.

00:37:01   And yes, you have iOS devices that can set themselves up now

00:37:06   without a computer and never be synced to iTunes at all,

00:37:08   but there's still, A, there's still a lot of people

00:37:11   who do sync it to iTunes, or who do use iTunes

00:37:13   to manage their iOS devices, and B,

00:37:15   there's all those devices they keep selling called iPods

00:37:18   that still need iTunes, so it's like,

00:37:20   there's still, and granted, they're not selling

00:37:22   a ton of iPods, but they are still selling them,

00:37:24   and they might be getting new colors

00:37:25   in a couple of weeks or whatever,

00:37:26   like it doesn't, it seems like the massive amount

00:37:30   of engineering effort that was required

00:37:33   to dump iPhoto in Aperture and make this new photos thing

00:37:37   with this new iCloud photos library, the corresponding scale of the job to do

00:37:44   that for iTunes and music was probably just too big to do in a reasonable amount

00:37:49   of time, and it's just it's not time for that yet. I don't know if it ever will

00:37:52   be, but it's I think it's clear that Apple believed it was not time for that

00:37:57   yet and that they probably had to move faster to get you know they were clearly

00:38:02   like like the relevance of of the iTunes music store to to buy music outright. I

00:38:07   I think was declining faster than they probably expected.

00:38:10   - Well, they had plenty of time to react.

00:38:12   That's something we need to say for the context here.

00:38:15   This is a me too move.

00:38:16   Apple should have had a streaming service long ago.

00:38:19   They spent a long time getting one.

00:38:20   They ended up having to acquire a company

00:38:22   to accelerate their ability to have one.

00:38:24   But if you had asked, the rise of all the streaming services,

00:38:28   it's not like this happened overnight.

00:38:30   It seems to have caught Apple flat-footed,

00:38:33   but it shouldn't have because there was plenty of time

00:38:35   for them to realize this is a thing they should have

00:38:37   it seems like they just couldn't get it together and ended up having to make an acquisition

00:38:42   to bring that to bear.

00:38:43   And my favorite hobby horse with the whole server-side stuff, and which to Apple's credit

00:38:48   they're actually making some motions on, is like, "Oh, we did that thing with photos.

00:38:52   It was a big effort.

00:38:53   We've got to do it for music too.

00:38:54   We don't have time.

00:38:55   It's too much effort."

00:38:56   If you concentrate on producing infrastructure for network services, instead of concentrating

00:39:03   "Oh, we've got to redo photos." If you make infrastructure, like say CloudKit, that is

00:39:07   an example of infrastructure. If you do a good job with your general purpose infrastructure,

00:39:12   lots of sort of online powered applications have similar needs. And I've hammered on this

00:39:15   again and again, that's like all Google does it seems like is make incredibly powerful

00:39:19   infrastructure upon which they can build all sorts of applications. Each one of those applications

00:39:24   doesn't have to reinvent the wheel and find a new way to store its data and stuff. So

00:39:27   I would hope that some of the effort they put into the backend for photos would give

00:39:32   them a leg up on potentially in the future rejiggering it.

00:39:37   It's tough to think if they bought it, it's not something they did in house.

00:39:39   Beats is what it is, they can't rewrite all of Beats code overnight or whatever.

00:39:43   But I'm hoping some of that infrastructure work that they're finally doing will pay dividends

00:39:47   in like, now it shouldn't be such a herculean effort to do the same thing you did for Fotos

00:39:51   for iTunes because A, you've done it once before, and B, you should be able to reuse

00:39:55   a lot of that work, a lot of the expertise, a lot of the experience, a lot of the code,

00:39:59   a lot of the server-side stuff, a lot of the frameworks,

00:40:02   that should help you accelerate the-- when they have

00:40:05   to do the music app that is like, oh, it's a total rewrite

00:40:08   or whatever, all the things they did for the Photos app,

00:40:12   that's like framework stuff.

00:40:13   They seem to understand that.

00:40:13   Like, oh, Collection View, that would be useful everywhere.

00:40:15   We should make that and have it everywhere.

00:40:17   Core Animation, that's client-side infrastructure.

00:40:19   We talked about this before.

00:40:20   Server-side infrastructure, how do you store a bunch of data?

00:40:23   How do you get it on demand in a reliable way?

00:40:26   and I have a database to store all the metadata,

00:40:29   how do I make all your stuff be in the cloud

00:40:31   and only parts of it on your devices?

00:40:32   And that's what they're trying to do with photos

00:40:34   and music is actually data volume wise an easier problem

00:40:37   because photos are bigger than music, so for the most part.

00:40:41   - Yeah, I mean, I think really the challenges we see here

00:40:43   are purely that, it's the same thing like every time iTunes

00:40:47   gets a redesign, like the desktop,

00:40:49   every time there's a new design for iTunes,

00:40:52   it really just makes the app harder and more confusing

00:40:54   to use because they can't actually remove features

00:40:58   from it for various reasons.

00:41:00   So instead, they just hide things in different modes

00:41:04   and drawers and stuff.

00:41:05   And it's just like, it's weird.

00:41:07   You just get this impossible to use application

00:41:09   that is extremely complicated but is trying to look simple.

00:41:12   And they move things around a lot.

00:41:14   And that upsets people who are like,

00:41:15   I knew where that was before.

00:41:16   And now I don't.

00:41:17   And it's like, I bet if you asked them, they'd say, OK.

00:41:20   If you knew where it was before, it's weird that we moved it.

00:41:23   But if you've never used it before,

00:41:24   the new location is better for reasons X, Y, and Z.

00:41:26   And maybe they're right, but for,

00:41:29   and maybe they're even right that there are more new users

00:41:32   than there are existing ones.

00:41:33   But just constantly reshuffling the deck chairs,

00:41:35   especially kind of like when they change

00:41:38   the whole iTunes DJ functionality

00:41:40   and replace it with Up Next.

00:41:42   Not only do people know how the iTunes DJ functionality

00:41:45   worked, but it was around long enough that people

00:41:46   were like, kind of get into a groove with it.

00:41:48   They have kind of like a workflow of how they play music

00:41:50   at parties or whatever involving iTunes DJ

00:41:52   or whatever that feature was called,

00:41:53   and then it was replaced with UpNext,

00:41:55   they can say, "Oh, UpNext is better for reasons X, Y, and Z."

00:41:58   It's like, "But I can't reproduce my workflow."

00:42:00   It's, you know, not that iTunes is, you know,

00:42:02   like a desktop publishing application

00:42:05   or Photoshop or whatever,

00:42:06   but you're just constantly moving things around

00:42:10   to try to find, maybe this arrangement

00:42:12   will be more pleasing, but like you said, Marco,

00:42:14   there's only, if you keep the same set of things

00:42:17   and you don't wanna give up anything,

00:42:19   which you probably don't because it's not like

00:42:20   there's lots of unessential functionality.

00:42:22   It's just like the functionality of seven apps in one.

00:42:26   Moving it around just pisses people off

00:42:28   who you're experienced loyal users,

00:42:30   and you can't actually make it that much simpler,

00:42:33   because all the crap is still there somewhere.

00:42:35   - Right, exactly, and by the way,

00:42:37   there's the big Windows question

00:42:39   of how do you enable these things for people on Windows,

00:42:42   so they need a bunch of crap for that.

00:42:44   There's obviously tons of technical debt here

00:42:47   for things like I still have to quit my music player

00:42:51   when I upgrade my developer compiler tools

00:42:54   because they're related.

00:42:55   It's like there's so many weird little tie-ins to iTunes

00:42:59   that have been accumulating over the years

00:43:01   that I think any kind of meaningful change to it

00:43:05   is extremely unlikely to happen

00:43:07   just because it seems like it's never going to be worth

00:43:11   the probably surprisingly large engineering effort

00:43:14   to substantially improve it and break things up

00:43:17   and start clean.

00:43:19   - Well, you said never and we know about that.

00:43:21   But anyway.

00:43:22   - On a limited time scale.

00:43:23   - Thus far, yeah, that's come up recently.

00:43:26   I'm trying to figure out if I ever actually said that

00:43:28   or if you guys said it as an attempt to characterize

00:43:30   and mock my line of reasoning.

00:43:33   And so far no one has found, they found me saying it

00:43:36   in reply to Casey saying it back to me,

00:43:37   but I don't know if I ever said that.

00:43:39   But anyway.

00:43:40   - Underscore will find it.

00:43:41   He finds everything. - Someone tried

00:43:42   and they thought they had found it,

00:43:43   really they just found Casey saying it snidely.

00:43:46   So it was obvious that at some point previously

00:43:48   that it had come up before.

00:43:50   - If I remember correctly, I think it was

00:43:52   when I was saying Apple didn't really need

00:43:55   to replace Objective-C, and you were saying

00:43:58   on an infinite time scale, yeah.

00:43:59   - The argument you're getting at I did make,

00:44:01   but I'm saying those exact words.

00:44:03   - Okay.

00:44:03   - Because it keeps being called

00:44:04   my infinite time scale argument,

00:44:06   and I guess it's more like that's Marco's name,

00:44:10   Marco's snide characterization of my much more subtle

00:44:13   and nuanced argument.

00:44:15   - Right, yeah, Derpy, Mud Lake.

00:44:17   - Or maybe I actually said that.

00:44:18   I'm willing to believe that I actually said it too,

00:44:20   I just don't remember it because so long ago.

00:44:24   But anyway, yeah, iTunes,

00:44:25   something's gonna have to be done eventually for now.

00:44:29   They just are content to keep changing the icon

00:44:31   and moving crap around in the UI.

00:44:33   But iOS got, I mean, I don't know how new the iOS app is.

00:44:36   Like it's newish, certainly there's less technical debt

00:44:39   in the iOS one and they did move crap around a lot.

00:44:42   And if you, that's the thing, like if you,

00:44:45   even if you don't sign up for Apple Music,

00:44:47   a lot of the options it seems like are moved around

00:44:50   or hidden or not there and you actually have to go

00:44:51   into the settings app and say Apple Music off

00:44:54   and then it looks more like the old music player app.

00:44:57   I did sign up for the trial, and by the way,

00:45:01   if you sign up for the free trial,

00:45:02   there's like a three month free trial,

00:45:03   which is pretty generous as far as free trials go.

00:45:08   It will auto renew for whatever price you sign up for,

00:45:11   but you can turn off the auto renewals.

00:45:12   Somebody tweeted instructions for doing that.

00:45:14   I followed their instructions and it wasn't that bad.

00:45:16   It was like, go to your Apple ID, go to manage,

00:45:18   and then go turn off auto renew.

00:45:20   So it's kind of slimy that they turn auto renew on

00:45:23   by default, I'd rather have it say,

00:45:25   you know, like a Squarespace real free trial,

00:45:27   like it's a free trial, and at the end of that,

00:45:29   then we'll do this, say hey, you've been using this

00:45:31   for three months, if you like it, pay money,

00:45:32   rather than just saying, oh, we're just gonna sign you up

00:45:36   for auto renew. I suppose it would pop up, send the email or whatever like all the subscriptions

00:45:40   do and say, "By the way, your iCloud storage is about to renew in six days to give you

00:45:45   a chance to cancel or whatever." But it would be nicer if they didn't have the auto renew.

00:45:48   But apparently Apple is not that far on the light side of the forest that they're not

00:45:52   going to have any auto renew. But you can turn it off. But anyway, I have signed up

00:45:56   to do that. I can still find my music. I am now slightly fearful from reading the horror

00:46:01   stories of what it might do to my metadata and stuff for all my songs.

00:46:04   So I'm kind of warily watching it and being careful with how I play back my music.

00:46:10   So to turn off this auto-renew, if you are in Apple Music in just about any tab, it looks

00:46:18   like you hit the little avatar profile person in the upper left.

00:46:23   And then there's a button for a row for "view Apple ID."

00:46:28   And then in there, there's a subscription section, there's a manage button, and then

00:46:32   in there, you can say, it says your membership, Apple Music membership, and you can turn it

00:46:38   off in there.

00:46:39   So, just FYI.

00:46:40   >> Yeah, it seems like it's very, very similar to the auto-renewing subscriptions that they

00:46:44   have in iOS for things like Newsstand publications.

00:46:46   By the way, Newsstand is dead, yay!

00:46:48   And other things, any kind of auto-renewing thing.

00:46:51   >> It's funny you bring that up because as I went through the stance to confirm I knew

00:46:55   how to do it, I noticed that I had one other thing in subscriptions. Would you like to

00:46:59   guess what it is?

00:47:00   The magazine?

00:47:01   That's correct.

00:47:02   Nice. Although it shouldn't be billing anymore. I think it's...

00:47:05   No, no, no. It's expired. Yeah. But either way, I thought that was kind of funny. So

00:47:10   why don't you tell us about something else that's cool?

00:47:13   Our second sponsor this week is Harry's. Go to harrys.com, H-A-R-R-Y-S dot com, and use

00:47:19   Use promo code ATP to save $5 off your first purchase.

00:47:23   Harry's offers high quality razors and blades for a fraction of the price of the big razor

00:47:29   brands.

00:47:30   These are very high quality, high performing German blades crafted by shaving experts giving

00:47:34   you a better shave that respects your face and your wallet.

00:47:38   Harry's offers factory direct pricing at a fraction of the big brands price.

00:47:41   So by my calculations, Harry's blades are about half the price of things like the most

00:47:47   comparable blades, I would say, having tried both a lot now, I would say they are extremely

00:47:52   comparable to the Gillette Fusion, the five blade Gillette cartridge things. These are

00:47:58   not double-edged safety blades, which I've tried before as well. I honestly find both

00:48:03   Harry's and Gillette better than double-edged safety blades for sensitive skin, because

00:48:07   I used to be a shaving nerd. Anyway, long story.

00:48:09   - Oh, God.

00:48:10   - No, but, and I stopped being a shaving nerd once I realized that I just like the cartridges

00:48:15   better than the straight razor stuff or than the double-edged stuff because it

00:48:18   really is like for sensitive skin these blades are awesome. So Harry's blades

00:48:23   really are top quality blades that are literally about half the price of what

00:48:28   you find from the big guys like Gillette. Now they have a starter set it's an

00:48:31   amazing deal so you for 15 bucks you get a razor moisturizing shave cream or gel

00:48:36   your choice and three razor blade cartridges. When you need more blades

00:48:39   they are just $2 each or less.

00:48:42   An eight pack is just 15 bucks,

00:48:45   a 16 pack of the blades is just $25.

00:48:48   The handles that Harry's has and the cream and everything,

00:48:51   all the other stuff about it is miles ahead.

00:48:54   First of all, the designs are really tasteful.

00:48:56   They're kind of modern but like retro inspired.

00:48:59   So it's almost like a Mad Men kind of aesthetic

00:49:02   on a lot of them.

00:49:03   Attractive, tasteful designs.

00:49:05   Like you know, you get like other Razors

00:49:07   and it looks like a kid's toy or like a Transformers slash,

00:49:12   you know, droid commercial kind of aesthetic.

00:49:14   It's really weird when you get other blades.

00:49:16   It has like these like weird tacky plastic blue accents

00:49:19   and stuff.

00:49:20   Harry's stuff is just nice.

00:49:21   It's tastefully designed.

00:49:22   It feels of high quality.

00:49:24   It's, you know, it's just nice stuff.

00:49:26   So again, great value, great quality, great designs,

00:49:30   great customer service if you ever need it,

00:49:32   and a great shopping experience on their website,

00:49:34   harrys.com.

00:49:36   So once again, try it out.

00:49:37   Handle 3 Blades and shaving cream for just 15 bucks,

00:49:40   and that includes shipping right to your door.

00:49:43   We've heard from so many people,

00:49:45   both men and women who use Harry's stuff,

00:49:48   we've heard from so many women that say these are great,

00:49:51   and that they use them all the time.

00:49:53   And women's razors face almost all of the same challenges

00:49:57   as men's.

00:49:59   There's some differences here and there,

00:50:00   but for the most part,

00:50:01   you're solving the same problem, basically.

00:50:03   and women's razors, the landscape of mega brand

00:50:07   women's razors is just as miserable as the landscape

00:50:11   for men's razors.

00:50:12   And really, we've heard everyone uses Harry's,

00:50:16   everyone loves Harry's.

00:50:16   Check it out, harrys.com, use promo code ATP

00:50:20   to save five bucks off your first purchase.

00:50:22   Thanks a lot to Harry's.

00:50:24   - All right, so anything else about Apple Music?

00:50:27   - Yeah, I thought the sort of first run experience

00:50:30   where it shows you the artist bubbles,

00:50:33   you can tap them multiple times to make them bigger

00:50:35   and it shows the picture of the artist on them.

00:50:37   They demoed that in the keynote

00:50:39   when they were introducing it and I went through it

00:50:41   and I was disappointed for a couple reasons.

00:50:43   One, the little bubbles it gave me,

00:50:46   I was looking for my favorite bands and they were not there.

00:50:49   So I'm not sure how it was coming up with the button.

00:50:51   You could do like more artists,

00:50:52   I kept hitting more artists,

00:50:53   hoping eventually it would rotate in

00:50:54   some of my favorite bands because I think that,

00:50:56   if it's trying to get an idea of what kind of music I like,

00:50:59   I'd like to tap the bubbles for U2R

00:51:01   Bruce Springsteen Radiohead, like that's a good start right there, right?

00:51:04   You know, we can branch out and keep going, right? And those just weren't there.

00:51:07   But two, I don't think it should have had to ask me at all because I've been an iTunes match

00:51:12   subscriber for a long time. It's got all my play counts for like for years worth of play,

00:51:18   cumulative play counts across all devices. It's got that in the cloud somewhere, right?

00:51:24   Why does it have to ask me who my favorite artists are? Don't ask me. You've got the actual data.

00:51:28   No matter what I say, like I mean you can have both.

00:51:31   I tweeted this, I thought it was ridiculous

00:51:32   that they didn't use this information.

00:51:33   There's a couple of angles to this.

00:51:34   One, the angle is you don't have to do that bubble thing

00:51:37   and if you don't do it,

00:51:38   maybe they do use your thing in the cloud.

00:51:39   If that's the case, then their sort of onboarding process

00:51:43   did not make that clear to me.

00:51:44   That if I just skip the bubbles entirely

00:51:47   and don't deal with it,

00:51:48   it will just use the information

00:51:49   it has about my listening habits.

00:51:51   I didn't, that was not made clear to me during the thing,

00:51:53   if it's even true.

00:51:54   And the second thing is like,

00:51:57   having both of those options,

00:51:58   Maybe I don't want you to use my usage data.

00:51:59   Maybe I think my tastes have changed recently.

00:52:01   Maybe I want to give a time window.

00:52:02   There's lots of, I just felt like there's lots of things

00:52:05   they could have and should have done,

00:52:07   and if they are doing them,

00:52:08   they could have communicated it better.

00:52:09   It wasn't a nice first run experience.

00:52:11   And a lot of people said, well,

00:52:12   that's a Google kind of thing to do,

00:52:14   where they make it clear

00:52:16   that they know you're listening experience.

00:52:17   We know they know.

00:52:19   How do you think your play count,

00:52:20   when you play something on your phone,

00:52:22   that you look at the play count in iTunes,

00:52:23   because you have iTunes matches, it increments over there.

00:52:26   We know they know this information.

00:52:27   We have, that's how iTunes match works, right?

00:52:30   And even if it wasn't in the cloud,

00:52:31   even if it was just on your device,

00:52:32   even on a given device, you have at least like

00:52:35   a couple of weeks or months of years of play count data,

00:52:38   depending on how long you've had the device.

00:52:39   So even if you stayed on device,

00:52:41   you could still look up that information.

00:52:43   I would have liked the onboarding process to say,

00:52:45   we do or do not know something about your habits,

00:52:47   either because you just got this phone,

00:52:49   you've never subscribed to iTunes match,

00:52:50   you don't listen to iTunes, you listen to Spotify.

00:52:52   Like, let it tell the person how much it thinks it knows

00:52:55   about your habits and say,

00:52:57   would you like us to use what we know of your habits

00:52:59   over the X number of months or the X number of,

00:53:02   some way of presenting to them to say,

00:53:03   this is how much we know about you.

00:53:04   Do you want us to use that information

00:53:06   to do your recommendations?

00:53:07   Or do you want to pick new things?

00:53:09   And then go through the bubbles process

00:53:10   and then have the bubbles process be a little bit nicer

00:53:12   about guessing which artist it wants to put in the mix.

00:53:16   Maybe it's because, maybe it's just go by your age.

00:53:18   Like that would be, I don't know what kind of algorithms

00:53:20   they use, but age would probably give them a good start.

00:53:25   Maybe they don't have that demographic information either, but again, I don't know how it's coming up with the bubbles

00:53:29   But whatever algorithm it was using the bubbles were not matching up with me

00:53:32   Like it was bands that I had not heard of that were probably bands that the youngsters like

00:53:36   And it just would not bring up a bubble for any of my like top five or top seven

00:53:42   Favorite bands no matter how many times I had more artists

00:53:46   Yeah, so that was that was disappointing other people were saying that the recommendation bubbles led them to a bunch of playlists

00:53:53   that really nailed their taste.

00:53:54   And even after I went through the bubbles

00:53:56   and picked the best ones that I could,

00:53:57   when I saw the sort of page for you

00:53:59   or recommendations for you, they weren't terrible.

00:54:02   So that makes me think it really is using

00:54:04   the iTunes match information behind the scenes,

00:54:06   which again makes me question why the bubbles were there.

00:54:08   But anyway, the bubbles are a neat UI,

00:54:11   but the onboarding experience for Apple Music

00:54:14   for me was not good.

00:54:15   - So real-time follow-up, sort of, kind of.

00:54:20   I was fiddling with Apple Music on my phone

00:54:22   while I was listening to you guys talk, and I went to the Connect tab to see what was

00:54:28   there. And I'll start by saying that I got subscribed to a bunch of artists I could not

00:54:32   possibly care less about when I first got onboarded with the whole Connect thing. That

00:54:39   said, I went through and unselected most of them, kept the ones I liked, and then selected

00:54:44   a couple others that I really enjoy. And so if I were to pick my favorite band right now,

00:54:49   and this has been the case for a few years, and I've mentioned it I think before, that's this band called Mute Math.

00:54:54   And so I was scrolling through Connect, and the second item after Dave Matthews' entry is an entry from Mute Math

00:55:04   where apparently a local magazine from here in Richmond sat down with them either before or after the concert that Aaron and I went to

00:55:13   that was a couple hours away from here, I think it was last month. And I had no idea this existed.

00:55:18   I follow the entire band on Twitter. I follow the band's account on Twitter. I had no idea

00:55:23   that this was a thing. And so when the show's over tomorrow or something, I'm going to go

00:55:26   ahead and read this interview with with pretty much my favorite band from a local magazine.

00:55:32   I had no earthly idea. So that's a pretty cool thing so far. And, and the connect thing

00:55:37   seems like it's being populated by a handful of people somehow to McGraw's in here. I'm

00:55:41   not really sure why. But, but no, it's that I'm impressed that I've already discovered

00:55:47   or it's something I would not have known about otherwise.

00:55:49   - I think it just makes you follow everybody

00:55:50   and every artist in your collection.

00:55:52   Its initial follow list is everybody

00:55:54   who you have music from.

00:55:55   - Which I think that's great.

00:55:56   I mean, for years I've had this problem

00:55:58   where I will have five albums from a band

00:56:03   and they'll come out with a new album

00:56:04   that I won't know about

00:56:06   'cause I don't follow the news that well.

00:56:08   And I'll discover it months or years later,

00:56:12   like, oh my God, I would've bought this years ago.

00:56:14   Why didn't I know about this album?

00:56:16   And they've had for a long time some kind of like artist alert system where you could

00:56:21   say like, you know, alert me whenever this artist has a new release or something. But

00:56:24   you had to like manually enable that for everything. And it just seemed like the obvious choice

00:56:29   would be like just look at any music I have, any artist in my collection, especially any

00:56:35   artist for which I own full albums, just notify me whenever, just like, you know, have some

00:56:39   newsfeed area or some notifications somewhere, email me. You email me for all sorts of other

00:56:44   Email me for like whatever the whenever any artist who I've bought music from in the past releases a new album

00:56:50   Do you think that's the right default any artist because I have tons of things that like I have two tracks by his artist one track

00:56:56   But as artists like I think it's okay to have that option because manually following all the artists and your thing would be tedious

00:57:02   but I'm not entirely sure that should be the default like I feel like most people have a

00:57:08   a handful of artists that they're really interested

00:57:10   in new releases from, and a long tail of artists

00:57:13   that they have one or two tracks from.

00:57:14   - Yep, I agree.

00:57:16   - Really?

00:57:17   I don't know, maybe I'm weird

00:57:18   'cause I'm a full album kind of person, but I don't know.

00:57:21   - I don't know who some of these artists are.

00:57:22   I'm going through it now.

00:57:24   Maybe this is some tracks from my kids or whatever,

00:57:27   but like, "The Secret Sisters,"

00:57:29   I don't even know who that is.

00:57:30   - Yeah, there definitely were entries

00:57:32   that I did not know the artist,

00:57:35   or maybe I had a single track from them

00:57:38   from like back when I was in college

00:57:40   or something like that.

00:57:41   - Yeah, and I'm not gonna, you know,

00:57:42   I know who Toto is, but I'm not gonna follow them.

00:57:45   I'm not awaiting the new Toto album.

00:57:47   That's gonna be, you know what I mean?

00:57:49   Unfollow.

00:57:50   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:57:51   It's, I didn't like the onboarding experience,

00:57:55   which should sound familiar,

00:57:57   but by and large, I didn't think it was,

00:58:00   I don't think it's bad so far, so we'll see.

00:58:03   I don't know.

00:58:05   anything else about music. Honestly, I I've only listened to it for you know

00:58:10   what a day right now so it's not you know I haven't spent too much time with

00:58:13   it but I like it a lot so far I've already listened to a few albums that I

00:58:19   wouldn't have jumped to buy but because I can listen to them now for free slash

00:58:24   no additional cost I will glad to listen to the album and in on for a couple of

00:58:29   them I thought you know I might want to buy this for a couple of them I thought

00:58:33   you know, I'm really glad I didn't buy this, but that was that was interesting,

00:58:35   you know, like that or, you know, I enjoyed it for those five minutes or for

00:58:38   that 40 minutes, but I don't want to hear it again. And, you know, this, I mean, this

00:58:43   is obviously, you know, this is like me discovering what everybody else in the

00:58:47   world discovered years ago when streaming services started to become a

00:58:50   thing, but this is kind of nice. Like, I like this and I can see why it changes

00:58:57   the way people buy and pay for music so much because it is very compelling and

00:59:02   And this is, if everything they said pans out,

00:59:06   you know, if what they are attempting to do

00:59:11   ends up being what they're actually doing,

00:59:13   in the way that they have the human curation aspect

00:59:16   and the playlist and everything,

00:59:18   if that ends up being good and staying good,

00:59:21   this is gonna be great for me,

00:59:22   because I've tried other services in the past.

00:59:26   At first, a long time ago, I tried Pandora,

00:59:28   I tried Spotify, I briefly tried Ardeo,

00:59:31   and then for like a day I tried Beats

00:59:33   before I realized they didn't even have a real Mac app.

00:59:36   My problem is that I don't find new music

00:59:40   on my own very well.

00:59:42   And the systems they've had in the iTunes store to date,

00:59:47   where they basically just have like,

00:59:49   you know, people who bought this

00:59:50   also bought this list of crap at the bottom,

00:59:53   that has been terrible for me.

00:59:54   I've spent so much time exploring those,

00:59:57   previewing those albums, and trying to see like,

00:59:59   okay, I'll go to a band I love,

01:00:00   and I'll see the people who bought also bought section

01:00:03   at the bottom, and it's just a bunch of garbage.

01:00:06   Like I can't imagine why people buy

01:00:09   those two things together.

01:00:11   So the human curation aspect so far

01:00:14   in the handful of playlists that I've listened to

01:00:17   that have been like the featured playlists kind of things

01:00:18   where it looks like some person was involved,

01:00:20   I've liked it.

01:00:21   It has given me new music.

01:00:22   It has introduced me to new stuff in a way that

01:00:26   all of the algorithmic things in the previous services

01:00:29   tried plus the iTunes recommendations under their purchased albums, those have never gotten

01:00:35   there for me. They've never been good enough to stick with me. So far this looks promising,

01:00:41   so I'm looking forward to this. And that is, that's what everyone always was saying about

01:00:45   beats music when it was called that, that they were very good at that. And the only

01:00:49   reason I didn't give that a chance again was because they didn't really have a Mac app.

01:00:52   Now this seems like this could really be something for people like me who are too old to find

01:00:59   good music on their own. How do you find the recommendations of services

01:01:03   that are better than Apple at doing this type of thing, like maybe Amazon or Netflix? Netflix,

01:01:06   I guess, is the best example. People who like this movie also like this movie. Do you find

01:01:10   that Netflix, you just sort of don't find the people who also like conceptually is a

01:01:18   good thing, or is it just that Apple's implementation is crappy and it just says, "People who

01:01:21   like this also bought Taylor Swift's 1989 because everybody bought it and their algorithm

01:01:25   - I'm stupid.

01:01:26   - I've generally found those recommendation type things

01:01:30   to be better than my opinion of apples.

01:01:33   - Can you tell us about one more thing that's awesome

01:01:35   and then I think I have a couple more thoughts about this

01:01:38   and Jon might as well.

01:01:39   - Absolutely, our final sponsor this week is Casper.

01:01:42   Casper is an online retailer of mattresses,

01:01:45   which sounds crazy, but trust me, it works.

01:01:49   So they are an online retailer of premium mattresses

01:01:51   for a fraction of the price of most mattresses.

01:01:54   Now, for years you've had things like memory foam

01:01:57   where they provide great support,

01:01:59   but a lot of people are not big fans

01:02:02   of the way memory foam feels,

01:02:04   or like a smell that it might have,

01:02:06   or just like the general consistency

01:02:07   of it touching their skin, or it's too hot for them.

01:02:10   So what Casper does is they have a hybrid mattress.

01:02:13   It combines latex foam and memory foam

01:02:17   to get really the best of both,

01:02:18   so that what you have basically is you have the support

01:02:22   of memory foam mattress, but the latex foam layer,

01:02:25   I believe, is the top layer of it,

01:02:26   and then that, it gives it like a cooler feel.

01:02:28   So you don't have the kind of hot feel

01:02:30   that a lot of people don't like about memory foam.

01:02:33   It really is the best of both worlds

01:02:34   from people who have tried it.

01:02:36   And you guys have tried it, right?

01:02:37   - Yep, absolutely.

01:02:38   - Yeah, my parents were just visiting,

01:02:40   and one of them slept on the Casper mattress we have

01:02:43   in the guest room, and after they went back home,

01:02:46   I got an email forwarded from my sister

01:02:49   who was saying, "What was the name of that mattress

01:02:50   "that we slept on?"

01:02:51   she's looking for them, so rave reviews from the parents

01:02:55   coming over to sleep on them.

01:02:57   - Nice, yeah, I mean, so Casper, these are good mattresses,

01:03:00   and they know that buying online is risky.

01:03:03   At times, everything we buy online sounded ridiculous.

01:03:07   The idea of buying clothes or shoes online

01:03:12   initially sounded ridiculous.

01:03:13   We thought, "Oh, how am I gonna try those on?"

01:03:14   Well, people figured out, "Oh, okay, we'll just have

01:03:17   "a good return policy and have fast shipping and everything,"

01:03:19   and that makes it better.

01:03:21   So Casper, they cover you there.

01:03:23   100 night return policy, so that you can try it

01:03:25   for 100 nights, and if you don't like it,

01:03:27   you can return it.

01:03:28   There's free delivery, they say they have painless returns,

01:03:31   'cause once it's unpacked, it's kinda hard to box it up.

01:03:34   So they will help you arrange for that

01:03:36   if you wanna send it back, but chances are you won't,

01:03:38   and they know that, and that's why they give you

01:03:40   100 nights to try it.

01:03:41   They're made in America, they are obsessively engineered,

01:03:44   and they have just the right sync and just the right bounce

01:03:47   from the combination of memory foam and latex foam.

01:03:50   better nights and brighter days.

01:03:51   Now, the pricing of these mattresses is really incredible.

01:03:55   It's shockingly fair.

01:03:56   So, generally speaking, for a good mattress,

01:03:59   a good memory foam style mattress,

01:04:00   you're gonna pay maybe 1,500 bucks for a queen or a king.

01:04:05   Casper mattresses, they cost between $500 for a twin,

01:04:10   all the way up to 850 for a queen and 950 for a king.

01:04:13   These are incredibly good prices.

01:04:15   You can even get 50 bucks off

01:04:17   by using our coupon code ATP at checkout.

01:04:21   So check it out, go to casper.com/atp.

01:04:24   Use code ATP at checkout to get these

01:04:27   obsessively engineered mattresses

01:04:28   that are offered at shockingly fair prices.

01:04:30   Thanks a lot to Casper for sponsoring the show

01:04:32   for better nights and brighter days.

01:04:34   - All right, so I wanted to quickly build

01:04:36   on what you were saying, Marco, about streaming services.

01:04:39   I don't, I'm not surprised that neither of you

01:04:42   necessarily said that streaming services

01:04:44   had worked that well for you in the past.

01:04:47   I used to be a music listener like I think you guys are, which is you have a batch of

01:04:52   music that you tend to listen to, you have your library, and you stray here and there,

01:04:57   but generally speaking you're pretty darn content with what you got.

01:05:00   I don't know what switch flipped in my mind, but over time I got more and more into hearing

01:05:06   more and more eclectic things and satisfying very random cravings at very random times.

01:05:12   And what I love about being a Spotify user, and this should be applicable to Apple Music

01:05:16   as well, is that I can listen to damn near anything I want, anytime I want, immediately.

01:05:21   And that's what's so appealing to me about streaming services.

01:05:24   I never even got that into Spotify in terms of, um, in terms of, like, their radio stations,

01:05:32   in terms of whatever curation they may have.

01:05:35   And I agree that I've heard constantly about how great the curation is on Beats Music.

01:05:40   And so I just loved being able to listen to anything, anytime.

01:05:45   Spotify also has some really great community features, particularly around playlists. So

01:05:49   for example, Aaron and myself have football season tickets to the University of Virginia,

01:05:55   and we have a shared playlist with the guy that we go with that we will, any one of the

01:06:01   three of us can just add songs to that playlist on Spotify, which works out really well. I

01:06:05   have no earthly idea if that's possible on Apple Music. I doubt it, but I haven't tried.

01:06:11   And so in a lot of ways Spotify has worked really well for me and I really, really enjoy

01:06:15   it.

01:06:16   And I enjoyed enough that I think it took me a day or two to sign up for the $10 a month

01:06:19   fee for Spotify that I've been paying for like two or three years now.

01:06:23   So I would encourage you to do exactly what you did, Marco, and give it a shot and just

01:06:28   kind of try poking around and seeing what you can find.

01:06:30   Because I think you might be surprised at how much interesting and good music you can

01:06:34   find, even if all that ends up happening is you quit, you common, or you very often fall

01:06:39   back to the things you already know and love. And the other thing I wanted to ask both of

01:06:44   you guys is, did you have a chance to listen to Beats 1 at all? And I'll start with you,

01:06:48   Marco.

01:06:49   You can probably predict my answer.

01:06:51   You either didn't or you heard it for 10 seconds and decided you hated it.

01:06:56   The latter, pretty much. I listened, you know, everyone's saying it's very good. So I listened

01:07:01   for, I don't know, five or six songs. Didn't hear a single thing that I liked at all. Each

01:07:07   Each song I wanted to turn it off during,

01:07:11   but I figured, oh, let me give it a little bit more time.

01:07:14   So it's fine.

01:07:15   I'm sure it's great for a lot of people.

01:07:17   It's just not the kind of music I like.

01:07:19   - So now you know how everyone feels

01:07:20   when they listen to Fish.

01:07:21   - Yeah, exactly.

01:07:22   I mean, I think it'll be interesting to see how this does

01:07:27   because it really is bringing many of the benefits

01:07:31   of radio stations kind of back or to a different area

01:07:36   they weren't really before.

01:07:39   But it also brings most of the drawbacks of radio stations.

01:07:41   Everyone's already very tired of hearing their station ID

01:07:45   and their overlay, their talkovers and everything.

01:07:49   You can't skip a song if you don't like it

01:07:51   because it's live.

01:07:53   And there's like, you know, you can't really go back either.

01:07:57   It seems like they have brought most of the annoyances

01:08:00   and limitations of radio stations with them.

01:08:02   And most of that's out of necessity.

01:08:04   You know, if they're going to do this,

01:08:05   they kind of have to do it that way for the most part, so

01:08:08   it seems like it is bringing into the modern age a format

01:08:14   that is it's almost like the skeuomorphism of radio. It's

01:08:18   like they copied all of the limitations and an annoyances,

01:08:22   along with the the you know the the core of it meant much of

01:08:26   which is you know kind of inseparable, so you know it's

01:08:31   fine. I'm sure people will like it. Maybe if I was having a

01:08:34   I might put that on or something,

01:08:37   where I just wanted to put on something

01:08:39   that would make me sound cool,

01:08:40   if that's even possible, probably isn't.

01:08:43   But I don't see myself listening to it, really.

01:08:47   - All right, Jon, have you listened to it at all?

01:08:49   - I didn't bother listening to it,

01:08:51   and my additional point on Apple Music

01:08:53   is basically just made by Marco,

01:08:55   that first of all, actually getting back

01:08:57   to Casey's characterization of the

01:08:59   I have my collection of music and that's that,

01:09:00   I would adjust that slightly to say

01:09:02   The way I listen to music is I have my collection of music,

01:09:06   and I'm always on the lookout for additions,

01:09:08   but the key is I'm looking for additions

01:09:11   to my collection of music.

01:09:13   So if I was ever sort of,

01:09:15   one way you can do it is you can graze,

01:09:16   like just listen to a bunch of music,

01:09:18   travel around links or whatever.

01:09:19   You can also do it the same way I find a lot of things now,

01:09:21   which is recommendations from people who I know

01:09:23   who have similar tastes to me

01:09:24   and things you see on social media

01:09:27   and sort of the overwhelming recommendation

01:09:29   of a bunch of people,

01:09:30   everyone's saying you gotta go see "Fury Road,"

01:09:32   Maybe there's something to that if everybody, if a whole bunch of people in your circle

01:09:35   tell you Lady Gaga is not just another manufactured pop star, even though that's what you think

01:09:40   about them for the first six months they're out, maybe you should look at, you know.

01:09:43   But the whole activity is do a bunch of crap and add to my collection of music.

01:09:48   So it's not a static collection.

01:09:49   It does grow and it grows slowly, right?

01:09:52   But I add not just new songs, but entire new artists and new bands get added to the collection.

01:09:57   So it is a dynamic growing thing, but the essential question is when it comes time to

01:10:01   to listen to music, do you want to listen to a bunch of music picked by somebody else

01:10:05   or listen to "your music"?

01:10:07   And listening to your music doesn't mean that you don't ever want to change your music.

01:10:11   You do.

01:10:12   You want to discover, like Marco, you want to discover new music that you will like.

01:10:16   It's just a difference in when it comes time to do the listening part, not the discovery

01:10:20   part, what do you want to do?

01:10:21   And I just want to listen to my music, right?

01:10:23   So that's why I didn't even bother listening to Beats 1, which I think is probably fine,

01:10:27   but it's just not how I listen to music.

01:10:28   The other angle on Apple Music that Marco was getting at was, and I've seen a lot of other people talking about this,

01:10:33   this is, you know, this, not that, you know, people talk about it as if Apple's the first one to do it,

01:10:37   but this, Spotify, RDO, all these things are

01:10:40   interesting in that they are bringing

01:10:43   radio to a generation of people

01:10:45   who are much younger than us, obviously, who didn't grow up with radio as

01:10:50   as big a dominant force in their life as it was in our lives, right?

01:10:54   Not that they didn't know what radio was and didn't listen to it or whatever, but it, but like,

01:10:57   the kids of the iPod generation when it was technically feasible for you to have a huge collection of music with you at all times

01:11:05   That enabled a lot more people to do what I do

01:11:07   We just have a massive collection of your music and listen to that instead of just saying I'm gonna listen to these

01:11:12   Things coming over the airwaves, you know, cuz you're on your little transistor ready

01:11:16   You couldn't have your whole record collection with you is gigantic

01:11:18   Like you need a record player and needs to be not bouncing around, you know

01:11:21   Even the CD players with skip protection like you could have one or two CDs, right?

01:11:25   The people who grew up in the iPod era, this whole concept of someone else is going to

01:11:30   pick a bunch of songs and play them to me live is something that they're familiar with

01:11:35   tangentially, but wasn't their primary interface to music.

01:11:39   So there's some novelty to it, like the sort of the radio skeuomorphism, it's kind of retro

01:11:45   and it's also novel.

01:11:47   And some people like that type of thing, like if your taste aligns well with the taste of

01:11:50   the person who is programming that radio station, that can be good for you.

01:11:54   And also I'm hoping that these internet reincarnations of radio stations get rid of a lot of the

01:12:01   crap that defined old radio stations in terms of the things that you were played had little

01:12:05   to do with the taste of any individual person, whether that taste is good or bad, and much

01:12:08   more to do with what record companies were pushing or possibly paying to be played.

01:12:14   So I'm hoping it does away with that as well, but like Marco said, the iPod era for people

01:12:19   who grew up with radio freed us from the tyranny of radio stations, because there's usually

01:12:23   maybe only four or five radio stations that came in good at your house, and there's the

01:12:27   classic rock station, the oldie station, the alternative station, the heavy metal station,

01:12:32   and like NPR, and a few, like, your options were so limited, it's like, I don't want to

01:12:37   listen to what other people want to play for me, I know the music that I like, I can bring

01:12:41   my, like, the beauty of the iPod was that it freed us from all of that, and bringing

01:12:45   it back is not tempting me to go back to that old world, but for the people who never experienced

01:12:49   that world or never fled it to go to the iPod, the same people who are asking for an FM tuner

01:12:55   to be added for their iPods for years and years, Beats 1 and that sort of internet radio

01:13:00   station intentionally removing the ability to skip tracks or even pause or rewind or

01:13:06   anything like that could be an interesting novelty.

01:13:08   And if that format is actually a thing and not just an accident of history, not just

01:13:13   like well, back in the old days we had to do radio this way because of these technical

01:13:16   limitations but once we didn't we never did that again.

01:13:19   Like if it turns out that it actually is a way people want to listen to music and not

01:13:23   just a technical limitation, it's good that all these streaming services are also saying,

01:13:28   by the way, not everything about radio is stupid.

01:13:32   There may still be a mass appeal to a DJ'd programmed, you know, quote unquote radio

01:13:39   station on the internet.

01:13:40   So even though I still think it's not for me, it is definitely worthwhile for everyone

01:13:44   to figure out whether that's still a thing.

01:13:48   - Yeah, I mean, I would say in many ways,

01:13:51   it is similar to the problem that newspapers

01:13:53   and magazines face, especially magazines,

01:13:56   where, and I know, having tried to run one,

01:13:58   and not having succeeded, really,

01:14:02   you know, one of the problems is, like,

01:14:03   when you have something like a magazine

01:14:05   or a radio station, and you are prescribing to people,

01:14:08   here's what you're going to see,

01:14:11   here's the package of things,

01:14:12   you're gonna see this, then this, then this,

01:14:14   and are you gonna hear this and this and this?

01:14:15   And we have moved on from that technologically.

01:14:19   People are accustomed to more freedom.

01:14:21   People are accustomed to being able to pick and choose

01:14:23   and seek around and do whatever they want.

01:14:25   And if you say, in the case of a magazine,

01:14:29   I'm going to charge you X every month

01:14:31   and I'm gonna give you these 10 articles

01:14:34   and they're gonna be on a variety of topics

01:14:36   and you might care about one of them.

01:14:39   That worked for a long time

01:14:40   when there were really no good alternatives,

01:14:41   but now people can just find the few good things

01:14:44   they like online from all sorts of different sources,

01:14:48   not even just you, and they like that better,

01:14:51   and it's kind of better for everybody that way,

01:14:53   except for maybe the publishers,

01:14:54   but it's better for the readers, for the consumers.

01:14:59   And radio, I think, has a similar problem of like,

01:15:02   you already have this world where everybody can have

01:15:04   their own program station tailored exactly to their likes.

01:15:07   If they don't like a song, they can skip it.

01:15:09   If they want to play it again,

01:15:10   they can just play it again.

01:15:10   if they want to buy, you know, it's all integrated and everything like the world

01:15:14   we have that isn't radio stations is really nice and really advanced and we

01:15:18   are all accustomed to that now. So to to try to go back to the way radio was and

01:15:25   I'm using it in the past tense because let's face it radio has been dead for a

01:15:27   long time to go back to the way radio was now once we've all moved on with how

01:15:34   we think music should work and and how music does work everywhere else. I think

01:15:39   it's really a problem.

01:15:40   I think we're all listening right now

01:15:43   'cause we wanna try it out 'cause it's cool and new.

01:15:45   I'm really curious to see if this actually is something

01:15:48   that has any influence really whatsoever.

01:15:50   Does it have any cultural presence?

01:15:53   Are a lot of people listening to it in six months?

01:15:56   - Our resident secret betraying Apple employee

01:16:00   wants to emphasize that Spotify does not have a DJ.

01:16:02   They just have what he calls a Pandora clone.

01:16:05   So I'm not sure, my familiarity with streaming service

01:16:08   small but like maybe Apple is the first one to try to get you know actual human

01:16:12   DJ's to pick things out as opposed to algorithms and stuff like that but yeah

01:16:16   all like technologically speaking if this turns out to be a thing it's very

01:16:20   presumably very easy for all the other streaming companies to hire their own

01:16:22   people to be DJ like radio DJs I'm sure they're out there looking for work like

01:16:27   it especially if you can pay them Apple size salaries or even Spotify or Pandora

01:16:32   size salaries. So yeah, because I don't listen to music that way, it's hard for me to handicap

01:16:41   the odds that DJs turn out to be a thing. Some other person in the chatroom also said

01:16:46   that a lot of this is, again, as usual from an American perspective, because American

01:16:50   radio stations are crappy and maybe they're not so bad in the rest of the world. And the

01:16:54   idea of a person gaining fame by having good taste and choosing music that other people

01:17:00   here and you sort of trusting them to pick good music for you and coming to have sort

01:17:05   of a relationship with them as a DJ hasn't happened for as much in the US because of

01:17:12   all the radio corruption and top 40 BS and all the other recent things get played in

01:17:16   the radio, but maybe it does happen in the rest of the world.

01:17:18   So maybe they already know the answer to the question I'm asking, which is, is it actually

01:17:22   valuable for a human to program music for lots of people to listen to, even though technology

01:17:27   makes it possible to not have to ever do that again?

01:17:29   I don't know. But one thing I was wondering from earlier is, I don't see, I think part

01:17:38   of the reason why I love Spotify so much is that even in the times when I want to listen

01:17:42   to something that I own, that I have in my iTunes library, I'll just go to Spotify because

01:17:48   it's what I'm used to and it's the first place I think of and I'll look up that album and

01:17:52   I'll just play it. And so yes, like the old curmudgeon in me feels like I'm just renting

01:17:59   access to all of my music, which is true, but nonetheless, I can listen to anything

01:18:05   I want within reason, any time I want to.

01:18:08   Well, yeah, anything I want.

01:18:10   You've said that a few times, and that brings up another topic that has come up for both

01:18:13   me and a few other people I've seen.

01:18:16   Obviously no streaming service has, like, all the music, right?

01:18:19   Sure.

01:18:20   You know, Apple Music doesn't have Beatles, and, you know, what was it, Spotify didn't

01:18:23   have Taylor Swift because of her streaming decision for that sort of thing. You don't

01:18:29   have everything, everything, but they have most things, right? But for people with weird

01:18:34   tastes, like if you're like Dan Morin and really like soundtracks, or if you're like

01:18:37   me and you like basically illegal mashups or video game soundtracks.

01:18:42   Nobody here has weird tastes in music.

01:18:44   Right, well I mean, Phish you think is weird, but Phish is going to be on the iTunes Store.

01:18:48   Not the ones I listen to.

01:18:50   Well, probably not the live ones, right?

01:18:52   But yeah, it's kind of a problem.

01:18:55   Yeah, but yeah, like those things, the things I'm talking about, sometimes they're real

01:18:59   albums that sometimes they're imports from Japan, but a lot of these things I have on

01:19:02   CD, like they're not pirated anything.

01:19:04   This is the official soundtrack for this game put out by the publisher of the game, and

01:19:08   it's not going to be anywhere on their list of things.

01:19:10   And I have, maybe I wouldn't want someone to DJ video game music for me, just like only

01:19:16   the best orchestral arrangements of Zelda songs.

01:19:19   I don't know, maybe that's not enough for someone to DJ a channel of or whatever, but

01:19:24   these things aren't even for sale in the plain old 99 cents per track iTunes store, let alone

01:19:28   available on Apple Music.

01:19:29   So being able to have access to sort of the world's music, the only place that's still

01:19:33   true is if you Google for something with, you know, in URL colon MP3, and then you can

01:19:38   basically find every video game soundtrack you want.

01:19:43   But on Apple Music, the percentage of my music that is available for streaming on Apple Music,

01:19:49   Ignoring obviously like iTunes match and the fact that Apple Music will upload my music like all these things

01:19:53   It's not like I can't listen to my music. I have it. It will let me stream it

01:19:56   I can already do that with iTunes match for you know

01:19:58   25,000 songs a month or whatever the limit is or a year or whatever

01:20:01   but the catalog of music

01:20:04   really relies on you having musical tastes that are

01:20:08   Least vaguely mainstream as you start to wander into other realms. I can imagine

01:20:14   I don't know anything about this but like classical music or opera

01:20:17   I don't know what their selection is like in that like as you just start to wander away from

01:20:21   Popular music for lack of a better term. It could be that Apple music's overlap with your library is

01:20:28   Small enough that when you go. Oh, I really want to hear the blah blah blah from blah blah blah

01:20:33   And if the blahs are a movie or a video game

01:20:36   Apple music's like I don't know what you're talking about, dude

01:20:38   And if you didn't previously upload that through iTunes match and stream it back down or part of the my music collection

01:20:44   No, you can't like say it's I don't have something in my collection like you know what I have no

01:20:48   Music from Street Fighter in my collection, but right now

01:20:52   I would like to hear like you know the most popular or famous Street Fighter themes Street Fighter had music

01:20:57   Yeah

01:20:58   And if it's if it's not there

01:20:59   Like then the one thing that I would think Apple music is for like Casey was saying like sometimes you just want to say

01:21:05   There a song exists. I know the title. I know the artist type type type two seconds later. I'm listening to it

01:21:10   That's amazing how it works, when it doesn't,

01:21:12   it shakes my faith in the utility of the service for me

01:21:15   in any way, 'cause I don't wanna listen to things

01:21:16   that are DJ'd, I don't wanna listen

01:21:18   to random streaming things, I basically just wanna listen

01:21:20   to my music, the one utility you could have is,

01:21:24   if there's just some song I think of that I haven't heard

01:21:25   in years that I wanna hear right now, just type it in

01:21:28   and it's there, and if that works for me,

01:21:29   even only 80% of the time, that makes me think,

01:21:32   definitely not $7 a month or whatever they're charging.

01:21:36   - In general, you're right, it's worth pointing out

01:21:39   that like you know if you have non mainstream tastes like this that these

01:21:43   services are probably not going to help you discover a lot of new music in that

01:21:46   in those areas and that's worth considering but for for other roles for

01:21:52   for the music they did that does have the fact that Apple service is

01:21:56   integrated with this uploads feature that they have whether it's iTunes match

01:22:00   or whatever they're calling the new thing that's in music that basically

01:22:03   does the same thing that the fact that this is all integrated that I think

01:22:08   gives them a huge leg up on the other services that, like you

01:22:11   know for me, you know, it was always useless for me to try

01:22:14   the services because the I would have you know I would

01:22:17   want to listen to normal people music sometimes and my crazy

01:22:21   fish live shows at other times and I have to keep bouncing

01:22:23   between two different apps and I then you know I'm a picky

01:22:26   jerk and that would drive me crazy, whereas Apple stuff.

01:22:29   They basically built a streaming service into the app.

01:22:34   I was already stubbornly using for all my music listening, so

01:22:37   That to me, and because it integrates all of my stuff

01:22:42   with their stuff, that is very compelling.

01:22:45   And I think, again, it's not, this is not gonna be

01:22:49   a mainstream need, I bet the majority of users

01:22:53   of Apple Music are never going to use these upload features.

01:22:55   But for the people who will use them,

01:22:59   this sets Apple Music apart from every other service.

01:23:02   - I guess what I'm getting at with the catalog selection

01:23:04   is that one of the advantages, one of the supposed

01:23:06   and real, I think, advantages of the internet age is not only can we make the world's music

01:23:13   available to you at your fingertips, but yeah, we can add the video game crap. We can add rights

01:23:18   issues aside, but again, video games are the easiest because these are actual real press CDs

01:23:22   officially from the companies that make the games. This is not illegal stuff or live recordings or

01:23:27   anything of dubious origin. You don't have room for that in the record store. There's no shelf

01:23:33   shelf space, blah, blah, blah.

01:23:34   But there is no shelf space on the internet.

01:23:36   There's no shelf space in Apple Store or in the cloud or whatever.

01:23:38   Like, you know, chase down that long tail.

01:23:41   Put all that crap in there.

01:23:43   Like, why not?

01:23:44   Like, that should be one of the advantages of this type of service is that you can have

01:23:49   a longer, not an infinite tail, but a longer tail than you could have when you had to put

01:23:53   things, when you had to, you know, put things on shelves in stores because then you really

01:23:57   had to make some hard choices.

01:23:59   You have more runway.

01:24:00   That should be, like I said, it certainly is the dream of just Googling.

01:24:03   can find any music anywhere, these streaming services, one of the advantages they should

01:24:08   have among their many is now finally the tail can be longer.

01:24:11   And I think it is.

01:24:12   Obviously the iTunes Music Store has more music in it than any physical record store

01:24:16   that probably ever existed.

01:24:18   But I'm saying, you know, keep chasing that down.

01:24:20   Don't be content with what you have.

01:24:21   Go full-fledged on, you know, just start with like categories.

01:24:25   Movie soundtracks, video game soundtracks, like that's all official music that you can

01:24:29   probably get from somebody.

01:24:31   And if something's not there because only five people are interested in it, I think

01:24:37   that is an advantage that they should leverage.

01:24:39   The size of their catalog should be a bragging right and not just 800 versions of the most

01:24:45   popular top ten songs from every year, but chase down the long tail a little bit more.

01:24:50   Well, and again, I think that's also an area where Apple has an advantage.

01:24:56   Even though they have not done so well in streaming in the last few years and they've

01:25:00   fallen behind in their relevance in music in the last few years as a result.

01:25:04   Despite that, I think they are not only not only do they have like the right

01:25:09   legacy, the right resources, and the right connections, but also now they have what

01:25:13   appears to be what's probably going to be a very very popular and successful

01:25:17   music service for streaming now. I think Apple has the best chances of any of the

01:25:22   players in this game of getting really good deals. Like if the Beatles were ever

01:25:26   going to be streamed anywhere, it's probably going to be Apple Music. You know

01:25:29   stuff like that, like Apple is really good at getting deals,

01:25:32   generally speaking, for this kind of stuff, and they're

01:25:34   going to, you know, they're going to really like sit on

01:25:36   everybody who they can't get until they can get them, and

01:25:40   maybe that extends also to the long tail. I don't know, but I

01:25:43   think if anybody has a chance as Apple and if you are a long

01:25:48   tail rights holder for something and you are trying

01:25:51   to see like where which of these services do you want to

01:25:54   submit your stuff to or get your stuff on again, I think

01:25:58   Apple's gonna have a pretty strong presence there. I mean,

01:26:01   they aren't the biggest streaming service right now, but

01:26:03   in a few years they might be, and they're certainly always

01:26:06   going to be a sizable one that people will think about when

01:26:09   they're trying to figure out, as publishers or as indies,

01:26:12   where do I put my stuff? So, again, I'm pretty optimistic

01:26:16   about Apple Music. I think, if anything, and I've seen only

01:26:20   great things about it so far on Twitter and stuff, if

01:26:24   anything, this all just highlights how clunky the

01:26:25   presentation was because it seems like,

01:26:29   it looks like it's a really good service,

01:26:31   and people really like it, and it's had a lot of things

01:26:33   that other services don't have.

01:26:36   It's a shame that none of that came through, really,

01:26:38   in the presentation, but it doesn't really matter now.

01:26:40   - You don't think, I think that the presentation

01:26:43   and the actual, like we talked about with the iTunes app

01:26:45   and the music app, I think there is a,

01:26:48   there are similar levels of confusion about them,

01:26:50   because it is a very complicated thing

01:26:52   that's difficult to explain.

01:26:53   there shouldn't be this many like,

01:26:55   FAQ articles and explainers about like,

01:26:59   what is Apple Music and what does it really give you

01:27:01   and what do you get and what do you get when you pay for it

01:27:03   and how does it interact with iTunes match

01:27:05   and what does it do with your files?

01:27:05   Like the confusion of like, well, when,

01:27:07   if you just have Apple Music and it matches your track,

01:27:09   it downloads the DRM version,

01:27:10   but if your iTunes match, it downloads the non-DRM version,

01:27:12   but then if you enable iTunes match,

01:27:14   while you still have Apple Music enabled,

01:27:15   you can match against the things and get the non-DRM one

01:27:17   and then not subscribe for it.

01:27:18   Like, it is actually pretty darn complicated.

01:27:21   Like, I think what you're saying is the benefits

01:27:23   are there.

01:27:24   They didn't do a good job of explaining what the benefits are, but I think the product

01:27:28   offering and the touch points of like, "How do I use Apple Music?

01:27:33   How do I use it on my Mac?

01:27:34   How do I use it on my iOS device?

01:27:35   What do I get when I pay my money?

01:27:37   How can I access the things that I got?"

01:27:40   That is just as muddled as the presentation.

01:27:43   Underneath it all, once you start figuring out where everything is, the actual benefits

01:27:46   of, "Oh, now I can listen to music that I like or discover new music," that seems to

01:27:51   be good, but I think, like I said, it is not the clean sheet approach that Photos took

01:27:56   conceptually or software-wise, and that I think is actually a reflection of their poorly

01:28:03   explained at that time not finalized deal for all of their music with all of their products.

01:28:09   So I think there's work to do there, and that may slow adoption.

01:28:13   It doesn't doom Apple Music to a ping-like death.

01:28:16   Basically, you could say pretty much anything that Apple does with music, just because it's

01:28:20   Apple doing it, has a very high chance of succeeding.

01:28:24   Ping is the counter example because that wasn't really about music, but a music streaming

01:28:29   service is a thing.

01:28:30   Apple is not the inventor of that thing, they're late to the game.

01:28:33   Because it is a thing, any streaming service that Apple does, they had to try pretty hard

01:28:37   not to end up being a major player a couple years down the road.

01:28:41   So the complexity of this product offering and the weirdness of the presentation and

01:28:46   the difficulty of really understanding what you're getting I think will only potentially

01:28:50   slow adoption, but in the end, streaming services are the thing that people want, and Apple

01:28:58   has one, and if you actually find your way to start using it, it seems like people think

01:29:02   it's pretty cool.

01:29:03   So I would project reasonable success for this thing over the next few years unless

01:29:08   Apple really drops the ball somehow.

01:29:10   Alright, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Cards Against Humanity, Harry's

01:29:16   and Casper, and we will see you next week.

01:29:19   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, cause it was accidental, oh it was

01:29:30   accidental.

01:29:31   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, cause it was accidental,

01:29:38   It was accidental, it was accidental, it was accidental

01:29:43   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm And if you're into Twitter, you can follow

01:29:52   them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:30:01   ♪ A-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N ♪

01:30:04   ♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:30:06   ♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A ♪

01:30:09   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:30:10   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:30:12   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:30:14   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:30:15   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:30:17   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:30:19   ♪ So long ♪

01:30:21   - You guys wanna talk about this whole

01:30:24   Safari considered harmful thing?

01:30:25   - Oh, poor Casey, he's so sick and wants to go to bed.

01:30:28   - I know, and we gotta talk about Safari.

01:30:30   I mean, we could save it for next week, but I feel like--

01:30:32   - I think we should save it for next week,

01:30:34   'cause I have a lot of things to say about it

01:30:35   I don't wanna talk to poor Casey about.

01:30:37   - Oh, I thought it was gonna be quick,

01:30:39   and I was more than happy to entertain it

01:30:40   if it was gonna be quick.

01:30:41   - No, I don't think it's gonna be quick,

01:30:44   'cause I have a lot of things to say about it.

01:30:46   - Yeah, me too.

01:30:47   Man, standards people are the worst.

01:30:50   - Non-standard people is what I want.

01:30:52   (laughing)

01:30:55   - Wow.

01:30:56   - Left-handed people, that means, I guess, right?

01:30:57   - I don't know.

01:30:58   Lefty slam.

01:31:00   The one marginalized group you're still allowed to slam in America, lefties.

01:31:04   Hey, so I was in Florida last week, and holy crap is it hot there.

01:31:10   So you went to Florida in July.

01:31:13   In June.

01:31:14   In late late late June.

01:31:16   What did possess you to go to Florida in late June?

01:31:18   I'm going to be going in the summer too.

01:31:20   It's going to be just as bad.

01:31:21   Yeah, so a good friend of mine was getting married, and so we decided to go down the

01:31:26   week prior, well, like the beginning of the week that he got married. And we went and

01:31:31   visited family and then spent two days in Disney World with Declan, which was less of

01:31:35   a disaster than I thought it would be, and then did the wedding thing. But holy hell,

01:31:41   you know, on paper, I think it was approximately the same temperature, although the humidity

01:31:45   in Florida is about 11 billion percent. And I don't know if it's just a mental thing,

01:31:51   because it's not my weather,

01:31:53   and so I am less tolerant of it.

01:31:55   But one way or another, God was it hot.

01:31:58   I would be outside for literally 45 seconds

01:32:00   and I'd start to sweat.

01:32:02   - Now is it possible, I don't know scientifically,

01:32:05   but is it possible to have a supersaturation of humidity

01:32:08   where you can actually exceed 100% in Florida?

01:32:11   - You would just, when dust goes into the air,

01:32:13   you get like a nucleation site

01:32:14   and just water drops out of the air onto the ground?

01:32:16   That's called rain.

01:32:17   (laughing)

01:32:19   literally in a cloud. I guess it's fog. No, but so I guess these all have things already,

01:32:26   but let's learn about the dew point, kids. Yeah. So, so how was, how was traveling with

01:32:30   Declan? It was fine. The plane was fine. Traveling with, traveling with an infant requires you

01:32:37   to travel with a bunch of crap. We counted, I believe it was nine different items we were

01:32:43   lugging through the airport. There was the stroller, the car seat, the breast pump, the

01:32:52   diaper bag, Aaron's backpack, my travel bag, two suitcases, crap, there's one other thing.

01:33:02   Oh! A portable Pack 'n Play.

01:33:04   Oh my god.

01:33:06   Yeah.

01:33:07   That's, this is a large set of objects.

01:33:08   So how many things did you actually carry onto the plane with you? Because you checked

01:33:12   the bags and stuff so you bring onto the plane. No, I checked one bag. So you're bringing

01:33:16   onto the plane the car seat, the baby, the stroller, the pack and play? Gate check the

01:33:20   stroller? Correct. We gate checked the stroller and the car seat. He was... And the car seat?

01:33:25   Oh, so you didn't get the lovely experience of having to install car seats while everyone

01:33:29   else on the plane stares at the back of your head with daggers. Correct. Yeah, so, 'cause

01:33:34   what is the deal? Is it required? Not if he's under two. Only if you love your children.

01:33:39   Oh, that's cold.

01:33:41   No, they say for like babies of a certain size that I think they have them on your lap.

01:33:46   Under two, I believe it is. Maybe that's wrong, but he was considered a lap infant.

01:33:52   He still had a boarding pass, which isn't entirely surprising,

01:33:57   but I was a little bit surprised by, but the boarding pass had no seat on it.

01:34:01   It just said like "inf" or something.

01:34:03   Was he allowed to keep it in his pocket when he went through the scanner?

01:34:06   Well, we actually this was my first time using pre check and pre check was pretty cool

01:34:10   Does he have pre check? Yes, because he rides on our pre check. He does not however have his own global entry

01:34:18   So we need to file for that shortly

01:34:20   So when so when he's too old to be a lap infant in like two years or a year, whatever

01:34:25   Yeah, can you and Aaron go through pre check or like yes, he gets it until he's like 18

01:34:31   I think or something like that or quite a bit older that he is right now. Okay, that's good. All right

01:34:36   So, man, the car seats, we have not flown with Adam yet,

01:34:41   and one of the reasons why is that I heard on various,

01:34:46   I believe it was your daily Lexes forever ago,

01:34:49   Lex's accounts of traveling with kids

01:34:54   in car seats on planes, and it just sounds awful.

01:34:57   - Oh, it's lots of fun.

01:34:59   I think at one point we did two.

01:35:00   Two kids, two car seats, maybe we never did two.

01:35:03   My wife will probably correct me, but anyway,

01:35:05   the struggle of, like, car seat is big, it's heavy, whatever.

01:35:10   Like, the real problem is getting it installed in the seat

01:35:15   with the airplane buggers and then getting it out again.

01:35:17   I can, the tip I'll give you,

01:35:18   I haven't listened to the episodes

01:35:20   of turning this car around or that you're referencing,

01:35:22   I'm assuming for Lex,

01:35:23   but you know when they showed a little demo

01:35:25   of like lift the flap and the little thing goes into,

01:35:28   you know, the car, you know,

01:35:29   how seat belts work on planes, right?

01:35:31   - Yeah, mm-hmm. - All right.

01:35:33   you don't really pay much attention to that because you're like, "Whatever, I'm gonna put it on my lap,

01:35:37   I'm gonna click it in, when I want to get out I'm gonna lift the buckle."

01:35:39   When you're bringing the car seat on the plane, like, I guess some people probably don't even buckle it in at all,

01:35:45   they just put it on the seat, put the baby in it, and that's done,

01:35:46   which doesn't make much sense to me because then it's just your entire baby and the car seat hurtling up to the ceiling and turbulence

01:35:51   and smashing it, right?

01:35:52   So you really should be buckling the car seat in and you want to do this quickly because everyone is behind you, you know,

01:35:57   wanting to get through and you've got your whole family blocking the aisle and all the crap everywhere,

01:36:02   especially if you have two seats and the kids are screaming and everything, right?

01:36:04   So you you try to buckle the the seat in by taking the seat fishing it through whatever stupid thing you're fishing it through

01:36:11   You know behind and underneath the seat

01:36:14   Clicking it in yanking the thing to tighten it good put the baby and you're done you think you're like we did it, right?

01:36:19   When it comes time to unbuckle that especially if you're a crazy

01:36:23   Parent who like pulls it really tight because you want to get the seat really tight because you've been trained by like the people

01:36:28   the fire department who told you how to put your car seat into your car, you pull it really

01:36:32   tight. When it's time to get off the plane and you're patiently waiting and everything

01:36:35   and you're like, "Well, I don't want to disconnect this seat until we're ready to go, but someone's

01:36:38   got to pick up the infant, then I got to take out the seat," and whatever, you go there

01:36:42   and you realize, "I can't lift the flap because the flap is hard against the back of the plastic

01:36:47   seat that I just tightened down as tight as I possibly could. How do I get this thing

01:36:53   unbuckled?" And now you're like trapped. Again, the kids are screaming, everyone's upset.

01:36:57   just want to get off this plane and you can't lift the flap because it's facing

01:37:01   itself. I'm gonna tell you face the flap away from the seat when you tighten it.

01:37:06   It's not probably the natural way you're gonna do it because if you think of how

01:37:09   it is over your lap the flap is facing, it would be facing the back of the seat,

01:37:12   face the flap the other way otherwise you will be super sad. Oh my god, so out of

01:37:17   curiosity how was that resolved? That was resolved with with anger and muscles.

01:37:23   You can imagine you can pull the belt away from the seat and then like pull it away as hard as you can try to

01:37:29   Make a gap and then shove your hand in there to push but you got to lift the flap up

01:37:33   It's not coming off unless that flapper goes up. So you basically have to as hard as you tightened it

01:37:37   I hope you didn't tighten it as hard as you could be

01:37:38   You have to have a little bit more leverage to like

01:37:40   Pull the strap away from the back of the seat and push that little lever up just enough the thing releases and you know

01:37:46   It goes shooting out the side of the seat probably

01:37:48   puts a hole in the side of the plane as it springs out and then you release the seat and in my case put it

01:37:53   Into a giant bag that goes on your back like like yeah the old woman from labyrinth the movie that neither one of you has seen

01:37:59   Probably with David Bowie that one. Yeah, remember the late the junk lady. She's got a million things on her back

01:38:04   She starts putting on Jennifer Connelly's back to so she'll become one of those hundred ladies

01:38:07   well

01:38:08   Anyway, when you have a car seat on your back and a rolling thing and a kid and all the other crap you feel like

01:38:12   that lady

01:38:14   But yeah, we did eventually get the seat off the plane

01:38:16   And I've done several airplane flights with car seats and at no point was it easy

01:38:21   But a few tips and a little bit of experience can make it easier. Also don't bring the baby because they scream all the time

01:38:27   [BEEP]