121: Admitted No Wrongdoing


00:00:00   I do. I steal all the tissues out of the hotel room and then have to make sure they refill those boxes.

00:00:05   Sometimes they don't.

00:00:06   We're live. We are in person in my hotel room with a whole bunch of equipment and wires everywhere.

00:00:12   Recording this on a proper three-track recorder with three microphones.

00:00:17   And one is clipped to a table. Mine is clipped to a suitcase stand.

00:00:22   And Jon's is clipped to a pole lamp.

00:00:24   And we are making this work. Yeah. So big day, huh?

00:00:29   Huge week. It's odd looking at you guys. We do this every year, but it's odd looking at you guys while we're doing the show.

00:00:36   Do you have a little note thing normally when we record? Or is that just for today?

00:00:39   No, this is just, so I'm holding a field notes and I have, so the comedy behind this is, I wrote some notes in my field notes, but I can't read them because my handwriting is crap in general, but my handwriting is unintelligible when I'm writing in a dark room, like, without having a surface to write upon.

00:00:55   - You should have tapped them out

00:00:56   on your little iOS device.

00:00:58   I don't know why you're writing in this Field Notes notebook

00:01:00   that's shaped like your butt.

00:01:01   (laughing)

00:01:03   - So I know, I'll have to paint you a word picture.

00:01:05   So the Field Notes is concave, convex,

00:01:09   I always get it backwards, anyway, it's bent.

00:01:10   - Depends on which way you hold it.

00:01:11   - Yeah, I guess that's true.

00:01:12   So it's bent because it always resides

00:01:14   in my back left pocket.

00:01:15   It is crinkly as all anything.

00:01:17   And so, yeah, so I didn't take copious notes.

00:01:20   I don't know, how do you wanna start this?

00:01:23   I mean, the morning was--

00:01:24   Are you actually, are we now learning, because I have notes, are we learning that I took

00:01:29   the best notes of the three of us?

00:01:30   You know I wasn't taking notes, I'm on vacation.

00:01:34   You're on vacation in California?

00:01:35   Exactly, yeah, no I didn't take notes, but if I just saw like the agenda, like if you

00:01:40   just have the agenda, the keynote, we'll just go through it chronologically and assume that

00:01:43   we will actually finish with the agenda. Marco can keep an eye on the time and how far we're

00:01:47   through the agenda and if we spend 45 minutes on the first item, we'll know that we have

00:01:51   to move along.

00:01:53   - Although, are we just going through the keynote,

00:01:55   or are we also going through the State of the Union?

00:01:58   - I don't know.

00:01:59   Knowing us, we'll barely make it through half the keynote.

00:02:02   And the keynote was about seven hours long,

00:02:04   so there's that.

00:02:06   - Yeah, and I wanna say, like,

00:02:07   we've done these recordings before,

00:02:08   and for people who haven't listened to them,

00:02:11   I think the thing to remember is that we spent the day

00:02:15   standing in lines, attending the keynote.

00:02:19   By the way, I'm actually at WWDC,

00:02:20   in case you were wondering.

00:02:21   (laughing)

00:02:22   - And then the state of the union.

00:02:26   We haven't had time to look up everything

00:02:28   on all the websites or digest it all or whatever.

00:02:30   So the main thing we're bringing to this

00:02:32   as people who are actually here,

00:02:34   bringing to the people who aren't here,

00:02:36   is that we were in the room and we could see the reactions

00:02:39   and we are sort of giving first impressions.

00:02:41   So inevitably we will get things wrong.

00:02:43   Like just before we started recording,

00:02:44   I was asking, I wish I could see a particular slide

00:02:47   because I have some memory of something being on that slide

00:02:49   but I'm not entirely sure.

00:02:50   So if we make mistakes, please forgive us

00:02:51   but we're trying to give you the on-the-scene sort of flavor

00:02:55   of WWDC, not so much a comprehensive, no factual errors,

00:02:59   complete coverage of everything that was announced today.

00:03:01   - Because clearly that's what we do,

00:03:02   is a podcast that has no factual errors ever.

00:03:04   And so this is an exciting-- - What a section.

00:03:06   - The weird thing is if you are here,

00:03:08   you actually probably know less about the announcements

00:03:11   than if you're not here,

00:03:12   because you're too busy being there for the things.

00:03:15   - Right, yeah, like Jason Stell talked about that

00:03:17   in Upgrade last week about how when you are covering

00:03:20   event you don't have time the way everyone else does at home to go through all the websites

00:03:24   and documentation right after they're released and everything. So we actually have had, yeah

00:03:28   you're right, we've had less time to go over this than a lot of people have. So we're making

00:03:31   a podcast about it.

00:03:33   But we have the things that they don't have is that we get to, and this is a thing people

00:03:37   don't know too, when they release the videos of this, they edit them. They cut out parts,

00:03:41   they cut out audience noise, they cut out flubs, sometimes they're even edited for content

00:03:46   like when that guy typed the wrong thing into the, whatever that was, like, what was that?

00:03:51   I don't remember. Oh, that was Siri? Did you talk about it during the music or? No, like

00:03:53   in the old thing that he was trying to say, "It's Road Trip." Oh, you were talking about

00:03:58   last year. He was trying to say "Utah Road Trip" or something, but it almost... Oh, he

00:04:01   put up the wrong song. Like, that one with the S-something. The Siri thing, yeah. But

00:04:06   anyway, being here live, that's what you get. And sometimes that's significant and sometimes

00:04:10   it's not, but that's what we've got to offer you. Right. Lucky you. Hooray! Well, let's

00:04:15   start, how about we do just a general overall feeling about the entire keynote.

00:04:19   Let's leave aside the State of the Union for now. So just the keynote in general,

00:04:23   how did everyone feel? I'll start off, the first half to two-thirds I thought was

00:04:27   excellent. There was a lot of enthusiasm. Some of the things that I think the room

00:04:32   found more enthusiastic I was a little, I was slightly surprised by. The room got

00:04:37   really amped up about an announcement with regard to Swift, which we'll talk

00:04:40   about later, but in general I thought it was very good. It wasn't quite the

00:04:44   fast-paced holy crap that was last year in my personal opinion last year I felt

00:04:49   like my hair was getting blown back everything there was so much so fast

00:04:52   this year wasn't that the last third however basically once once Apple music

00:04:58   started things took a turn and we'll talk about that as well but I don't know

00:05:03   Marco what did you think about the whole thing I thought it was great I mean you

00:05:06   know if we just if we consider the first you know three-quarters or whatever like

00:05:11   like the first part before Apple Music,

00:05:14   if Tim Cook would have ended,

00:05:17   and instead of saying one more thing,

00:05:18   said, "Thanks, well this'll be a great week,

00:05:20   "we'll see what you guys can do with this, thanks a lot,"

00:05:23   and that was the end of it.

00:05:24   I think it would have been a very different

00:05:26   overall reaction, and until that point, really,

00:05:29   I think the momentum was very good.

00:05:30   So, they ran through a lot of stuff.

00:05:33   They ran through iOS 9, OS 10, L, is it El Capitan?

00:05:37   Is that how you say that?

00:05:39   El Capitan? - I believe that's right.

00:05:40   - We're gonna have to learn that.

00:05:41   - I guess LCAP, is that an acceptable,

00:05:44   well I'm sure Stephen Hackett's gonna be furious about this,

00:05:46   but I will probably call it LCAP.

00:05:49   - I've heard California people call it LCAP,

00:05:51   so I think that's okay, but you never know

00:05:54   with California people.

00:05:55   Maybe they can say it, but we can't, I don't know.

00:05:57   - Right, like isn't Cali unacceptable if you're not--

00:06:00   - And don't forget Frisco, yep, we're here in Frisco.

00:06:03   - We're here in Frisco Cali.

00:06:04   Oh God, so many people are so angry right now.

00:06:05   - Welcome to Frisco, don't touch anything.

00:06:07   (laughing)

00:06:08   So I think, you know, starting,

00:06:10   if you start at the beginning, you know, going through it,

00:06:12   first of all, I would say, I took a note of this too,

00:06:15   like the reactions that people had to both Tim Cook

00:06:18   and then to especially Craig Federighi,

00:06:21   these were like roaring cheers,

00:06:23   like more than I've heard since Steve Jobs at these events.

00:06:27   Like people are really pleased with these execs.

00:06:31   It was just very, just positive,

00:06:33   very positive overall for them.

00:06:34   I think, you know, so moving into what they announced,

00:06:36   I mean, so first of all, I thought the opening film

00:06:40   was kind of funny.

00:06:41   I heard a lot of people on Twitter were like,

00:06:43   "Oh, this is lame."

00:06:45   I thought it was cute.

00:06:46   I didn't think it was bad.

00:06:47   - Yeah, I think it played well in the room.

00:06:49   Like of all their opening videos they do

00:06:51   that are supposed to be funny, they're hit or miss.

00:06:52   You know, it doesn't really matter.

00:06:53   But I thought this one was mostly hit

00:06:56   and I didn't hear a lot of groaning from the room.

00:06:59   - At that point.

00:07:00   - Yeah, I mean, the worst thing you could say

00:07:03   about the opening video is that it didn't seem

00:07:05   particularly relevant, which you can kind of imagine

00:07:07   has to be that way, 'cause if you're gonna get

00:07:09   a bunch of celebrities and someone to produce

00:07:10   this video for you and everything, you can't,

00:07:12   like what if they had filmed a whole bunch of stuff

00:07:15   about the new Apple TV, or teases about the new Apple TV

00:07:18   and then they had to can it, so the opening joke

00:07:20   can't be about anything that announced,

00:07:22   but then you're like, well why is it even here?

00:07:23   Is it just wasting time?

00:07:25   Is it trying to entertain me?

00:07:26   The only thing I would really ding the opening video on

00:07:28   is making a joke about Objective C and not mentioning Swift.

00:07:31   (laughing)

00:07:33   - No, I thought it was good, 'cause what was it,

00:07:34   Bill Hader, Bill Heater, I forget how you say it.

00:07:36   - Yeah, that was that Saturday Night Live guy.

00:07:37   - Yeah, and he's awesome.

00:07:38   And so I thought as a cheesy and campy opening video,

00:07:43   it was about as delightful a cheesy and campy opening video

00:07:47   as one could really hope for.

00:07:48   So I give that two thumbs up.

00:07:50   I thought it was fine.

00:07:52   - Yeah, and so I think you can look in the room

00:07:56   and you can say, you're right, playing to that room,

00:07:58   it worked.

00:07:59   It was lighthearted.

00:08:01   They know they're not gonna get comedy awards

00:08:03   or the things they produce or anything,

00:08:04   but it was lighthearted and it was nice, it was pleasant,

00:08:08   parts of it were very funny, I thought, and it was fine.

00:08:11   And they usually open up with jokey videos.

00:08:13   There was that Siri video a few years ago and stuff like that.

00:08:16   That's not new, to open up with a jokey video,

00:08:18   so that's fine.

00:08:19   - And this referenced third-party apps.

00:08:20   You had the little crows from Monument Valley in there,

00:08:23   you got Angry Birds, of course.

00:08:24   - There was a lot in there.

00:08:26   - So if you're playing through a room full of developers,

00:08:29   referencing a bunch of third-party apps is a good bet.

00:08:31   - Exactly.

00:08:32   So, let's see, the first thing I have here.

00:08:37   - Put your laptop in front of you so you can stay on mic.

00:08:41   - Yeah, I know, right?

00:08:43   So they went over OS X first.

00:08:46   And so, man, I wish we had somebody in the room

00:08:50   who was an OS X expert.

00:08:52   - Like I tweeted, OS X still gets top billing,

00:08:55   which isn't really true because the last spot's the good one.

00:08:58   But anyway, as I said, just let me have this one.

00:09:01   OS X top billing.

00:09:04   That keynote was so long--

00:09:06   I'm not going to say it had so much stuff in it,

00:09:08   but it was so long that now I'm thinking back,

00:09:10   what did they announce for OS X?

00:09:12   Well, it got its own name.

00:09:16   And it's not Snow Yosemite or Snow-sem-ity.

00:09:18   [LAUGHTER]

00:09:20   Like, you think, oh, who cares what its name is.

00:09:22   But that is a signal that Apple has used in the past

00:09:25   to indicate an OS release that is merely the previous OS

00:09:30   release but kind of cleaned up a little bit. You had Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion and

00:09:36   those were all modifiers of Leopard and Lion and that sends a clear signal about the intention

00:09:40   of the OS. This one does El Capitan which is kind of a modified version of Yosemite

00:09:44   because it's a thing that's in Yosemite but it's still trying to stand on its own. The

00:09:51   thing that struck me about it is, and I'm still looking at it from a reviewist's perspective,

00:09:55   I'm like, man, the screenshots are going to look exactly the same this year as they did

00:09:59   last year because last year was the big overhaul of how everything looks and this year I don't

00:10:03   was there anything to look different? The font's different. Yeah other than the font

00:10:07   but I. That's kind of big. It's only big to people who care about fonts. I can tell you

00:10:12   that vanishingly small number of people can even notice in like a test is this Helvetica

00:10:18   or you know charcoal or SB Sans or Chicago, well maybe they can tell Chicago but yeah

00:10:25   It is a new font, but other than that, I don't think there's even any new controls or effects

00:10:32   or widgets or anything like that.

00:10:34   This is going to look very similar in the reviews, and everything they concentrated

00:10:36   on were a few underpinning text and a bunch of new features for apps.

00:10:40   It did not look like a big OS release.

00:10:44   The other thing that struck me, since this was their first announcement, is that you're

00:10:47   going to show us this new OS.

00:10:48   It's going to have a whole bunch of stuff in it that is kind of like, "Well, it's like

00:10:52   Yosemite but a couple things are better or improved or whatever. They did not emphasize

00:10:58   the idea that we're taking this year to sort of make things perform better and make more

00:11:02   stable. They did not hammer that at all. They merely just didn't say anything. They just

00:11:06   said this is, you know, OS X El Capitan, here's what it has in it, and these things that it

00:11:12   has is great, and moving on. They did not emphasize where, like they did, they hit it

00:11:17   It was no, to say zero new features, we're really going to try to buckle down this time

00:11:25   and concentrate on the core OS.

00:11:27   I think they are doing that, but they didn't say that in the messaging.

00:11:30   That I think would be a theme throughout, because a lot of the announcements in this

00:11:33   keynote were like that, but it was unspoken.

00:11:36   In the past show I said, "Hey, they can get lots of applause lines by saying that."

00:11:40   They didn't go for them.

00:11:41   They didn't go for that type of line.

00:11:43   They just sort of went with the positives and didn't put it in the context of, "We know

00:11:48   that iOS 8 and Yosemite were big releases and there are a bunch of bugs that you wish

00:11:53   we would fix."

00:11:54   >> I disagree.

00:11:55   I think they did.

00:11:56   I mean, so the way Federighi introduced it, he said there were like, you know, like these

00:12:01   handful of headlining features.

00:12:02   There was spotlight enhancements, some things to the built-in apps, window management, and

00:12:07   performance.

00:12:08   And then, and metal was part of performance.

00:12:09   >> But performance is not a big Yosemite.

00:12:10   But here, I put it in legal terms.

00:12:12   - They admitted no wrongdoing.

00:12:14   (laughing)

00:12:15   - That's true, that's true.

00:12:15   - They did a settlement and they say,

00:12:17   but of course Apple admits no wrongdoing.

00:12:18   - That's fair.

00:12:19   Well, but, first of all, I think that's very heavily implied

00:12:22   by the clear slowdown in headlining marketable features

00:12:27   of these two OSs.

00:12:29   But also, I think, even with Snow Leopard,

00:12:32   they didn't say, man, Leopard was a piece of crap.

00:12:34   We're fixing it.

00:12:35   They said we're working on making things better

00:12:37   under the hood faster.

00:12:38   - They said they were regrouping.

00:12:40   They had to say, "Why are we making a thing

00:12:42   "with no new features?"

00:12:44   Because it's like a regrouping or rebuilding year.

00:12:46   That is what we're doing with this endeavor.

00:12:49   They didn't feel the need to excuse anything

00:12:52   about El Capitan.

00:12:53   They didn't feel the need to explain

00:12:55   why it didn't have as many new features to demo as Yosemite,

00:12:58   or why the features were less dramatic.

00:13:00   At no point did they put it in the context

00:13:01   of past releases, characterizing this release

00:13:03   as small or less significant in any way.

00:13:07   And I think that's fine.

00:13:09   it's a perfectly valid way to go,

00:13:10   I just thought they would have gone for it

00:13:12   to get sort of the credit for what it is they're doing.

00:13:15   And it seems like, it's not like a power,

00:13:17   like I don't think they want it to embarrass themselves.

00:13:20   Not that you're gonna say your previous OS

00:13:21   was a piece of crap, but to put this new release in context

00:13:25   and say this release is a smaller release

00:13:27   than our previous one, and that is a conscious choice,

00:13:30   and it's good for consumers because of X, Y, and Z.

00:13:33   They didn't say that.

00:13:34   - Yeah, that's true.

00:13:35   What do you think of the name?

00:13:36   Because I don't dig it.

00:13:38   I don't think I really like the California themed names at all because they don't mean anything to me.

00:13:45   Like I can get behind Tiger and Leopard and even Snow Leopard.

00:13:48   And granted, there aren't snow leopards running around Virginia, but I mean everyone can associate, can understand and appreciate animals.

00:13:54   Whereas these, to me, kind of esoteric places in California, they just carry no weight to me.

00:14:01   Like John, I'm especially curious to hear you.

00:14:03   I like that naming theme because I think there are so many options.

00:14:06   And I like this name admittedly because it was the name of the tower case.

00:14:09   I believe it was the name of the entire tower case design that the Power Mac G3 and G4 came

00:14:14   in.

00:14:15   This was the name of that thing.

00:14:18   But they sound cool.

00:14:20   With the exception of Mavericks, two out of three so far have been names that people know

00:14:23   throughout the whole country.

00:14:25   People know what Yosemite is and I think people know what this is, even if they didn't know

00:14:27   about the case code names.

00:14:30   And that's kind of what a name has to be.

00:14:31   It's just a filler marketing name.

00:14:33   It's better than a number. It's better than the name of a wine. It's less highfalutin

00:14:40   than whatever. I don't even know what the wine name for this one is. Someone could look

00:14:43   it up on the rumor sites. So I don't mind it. And the OS itself, the things they changed

00:14:49   are all like, "Yeah, that was kind of silly that that was limited that way." And, "Oh,

00:14:53   that does look like a cool feature, but I don't care because I don't use that app."

00:14:57   So all the things they didn't talk about, like if you have Discovery-D problems and

00:15:00   and this solves them, that will be worth the hassle of upgrading alone. But they didn't

00:15:04   talk about that at all because they would have to put that in context and sort of admit

00:15:08   wrongdoing there.

00:15:09   >> Right, right. I don't know, what else did they talk about for OS X? I kind of blanked

00:15:15   in terms of my notes on what happened. There was the--

00:15:17   >> Well, there was the window management stuff, the new like kind of like split screen enhancements

00:15:20   to mission control and stuff like that. I mean, and that's all, I think, fairly lightweight,

00:15:24   but it's nice.

00:15:25   >> Well, the window management I think is interesting to me from the perspective, from

00:15:30   From my perspective, how I manage Windows,

00:15:33   and Windows itself, Microsoft Windows,

00:15:36   has done this thing,

00:15:38   they sort of dragged the window to the side

00:15:39   and have it fill the half screen or whatever,

00:15:41   and of course Linux window managers

00:15:42   have been doing this for ages as well.

00:15:45   Marco, are you okay?

00:15:46   Are you dying over there?

00:15:46   - I'm fine.

00:15:47   - All right.

00:15:48   - Yeah, you can't just get away with it now

00:15:50   'cause we're all in the same room.

00:15:51   - But the whole idea of a tiling window manager

00:15:55   is the opposite of how I manage Windows.

00:15:57   I manage windows with overlapping windows.

00:16:01   The way that Mac window management

00:16:02   has been done since the dawn of the Mac, windows overlap.

00:16:05   And even when I even use the same vocabulary,

00:16:07   I'm like, oh, I tile my windows.

00:16:09   But what tile means is what they were showing,

00:16:12   where the windows don't overlap.

00:16:13   And you divide the screen into fourths or thirds or whatever,

00:16:16   vertically, horizontally.

00:16:17   And the windows don't overlap.

00:16:19   And when I say tile, it's probably the wrong word.

00:16:21   I mean that they overlap and are staggered one after the other.

00:16:27   So I think for people who want to,

00:16:29   people who are stuck in full screen mode,

00:16:31   this may help shake them out of it and say,

00:16:32   "Hey, you've got this big giant screen,

00:16:33   "don't make your text editor window

00:16:35   "fill your entire 24 inch screen

00:16:36   "because you're not gonna write lines

00:16:37   "that are 700 characters long."

00:16:39   Maybe, I don't know, split your screen vertically

00:16:42   and have two things.

00:16:44   It'll help people along who are addicted

00:16:48   to full screen apps, even on giant monitors,

00:16:50   and maybe on small monitors it'll give them a chance,

00:16:51   and there's a nice symmetry with iOS 9's features

00:16:53   that we'll talk about later.

00:16:55   But from my perspective, this is window management

00:16:58   that is not even up to the complexity of third-party Mac

00:17:02   apps that have been around for ages, like Divi and Moom.

00:17:05   Moom, as it's called.

00:17:05   There's a bunch of other ones that are like that.

00:17:07   I just don't have interest in these things.

00:17:08   So these features of El Capitan don't interest me.

00:17:11   But I think it's good that they're there to sort of be

00:17:14   like training wheels for people who aren't very good at window

00:17:17   management, to say, here are some more options.

00:17:20   And they're built into the OS, and you don't have to install

00:17:22   a scary third-party app.

00:17:23   And maybe they will help you feel comfortable with Windows

00:17:26   in a way that you don't currently feel comfortable.

00:17:28   Yeah, that's fair.

00:17:30   Was it during the OS X portion that they

00:17:33   announced that core animation is moving to Metal instead

00:17:35   of OpenGL?

00:17:36   Well, they announced that Metal was coming to OS X.

00:17:38   And there's a lot of announcements this year

00:17:39   like, yeah, we all figured that from last year.

00:17:41   Like, it announced Metal, and it's iOS only.

00:17:44   And it's like, why is it iOS only?

00:17:45   The only reason you can think of is

00:17:47   because they have limited resources and time,

00:17:48   and iOS is more important, and it will come to the Mac

00:17:50   eventually.

00:17:51   And it did.

00:17:52   and they put their stuff on top of it, and it's good.

00:17:54   You know, thumbs up, like.

00:17:55   And Craig Fader, where you threw up the horns.

00:17:59   - Well of course.

00:18:00   - Briefly, I'm pretty sure.

00:18:01   Marco needs to see what the horns are.

00:18:02   These are the horns, Marco.

00:18:03   (laughing)

00:18:04   - Is that a reference?

00:18:05   - Mess with the bull, you get the horns, okay?

00:18:06   - Oh God.

00:18:07   - Wow.

00:18:08   Neither one of you get that, do you?

00:18:10   - No, I know that's a reference.

00:18:12   I don't know from where.

00:18:13   You should see--

00:18:14   - Chat room is silently shaming you.

00:18:15   You can't see it from the top of me.

00:18:16   - You should see.

00:18:17   This is different now, because I can see the disdain.

00:18:20   - The disgust, yeah, you can see it.

00:18:21   absolute disgust on John's face. Typically I'm behind a monitor, and we don't do video

00:18:26   when we record, so I don't get to see how unbelievably upset and frustrated John is.

00:18:33   But this time I did.

00:18:34   I think he threw up the horns again. I don't have the video to look at.

00:18:37   I thought he had as well. That's alright. What else happened to Noah Stendate? You know,

00:18:41   they didn't do, it just occurred to me, they didn't do Control Center, right? Or did I

00:18:44   totally miss that?

00:18:45   Control Center.

00:18:46   They were talking about doing the same thing where you swipe up from the bottom on iOS

00:18:50   whether you were gonna swipe from the left

00:18:52   on a notification center type thing, but the other side.

00:18:54   - Right, right.

00:18:55   That was a pretty solid rumor, I thought, up until--

00:18:57   - I think Mark Erman was wrong about that.

00:18:59   - Well, or maybe we just don't know it yet,

00:19:00   but I-- - It could still be there.

00:19:02   That type of stuff, but maybe it gets cut.

00:19:03   - I think they would've showed that off.

00:19:04   - I think so, too.

00:19:06   - I'm kinda glad it's not there, honestly.

00:19:07   Like, when I heard these rumors,

00:19:08   I was not looking forward to that, honestly.

00:19:10   - Gonna save something for next year.

00:19:12   - Yeah, exactly.

00:19:13   All right, so before we move on to iOS,

00:19:16   let's talk about our first sponsor.

00:19:18   It is our friends at Cards Against Humanity.

00:19:21   Now, Cards Against Humanity, rather than actually

00:19:25   giving us a sponsorship to read,

00:19:27   they have asked Jon to review a toaster.

00:19:30   So Jon, what is the toaster of the week?

00:19:33   - So this week's toaster is the Hamilton Beach

00:19:35   Toast Station, model 22722.

00:19:38   - That's it?

00:19:39   - Okay.

00:19:40   - Both of you pull this up, because this is,

00:19:42   this marks a turning point, I think, in our toaster review.

00:19:44   - What is this abomination?

00:19:46   - Exactly.

00:19:46   - What is this abomination?

00:19:47   - This is an octoparrot.

00:19:50   It's not a referring toaster.

00:19:51   It is kind of an octoparrot.

00:19:53   - What is that?

00:19:54   - Polly shouldn't be.

00:19:55   Casey does not get that reference.

00:19:56   - Nope.

00:19:57   - Neither does Marco.

00:19:58   This thing, I will describe it for you.

00:20:00   It looks like a toaster oven,

00:20:01   and seeing it in person,

00:20:03   it's like my Breville toaster oven was cut in half,

00:20:06   so it was half the depth,

00:20:07   so it sticks out from the wall of my kitchen half as far.

00:20:10   So that's the first chop.

00:20:12   And the second chop is vertically,

00:20:14   where the door that opens up

00:20:16   is half the height of the toaster.

00:20:17   And what are they doing with the rest

00:20:18   of the vertical head of the toaster?

00:20:20   There's a slot in the top where you put pieces

00:20:23   of bread product in and push down a knob on the side.

00:20:26   This is a slot toaster and a toaster oven in one.

00:20:28   We will put the link in the show notes so you can look at it.

00:20:30   It's kind of like one of those magician's boxes

00:20:32   where you expect there's like mirrors in there.

00:20:33   It's like when you push down the toast,

00:20:35   where does the toast go?

00:20:36   Well, there are no mirrors.

00:20:37   It's not magic.

00:20:37   When you put toast in the top of this thing in a slot

00:20:39   and push them down, they sit vertically

00:20:42   in the middle of the toaster oven.

00:20:43   So you can't use the slot toaster portion

00:20:44   in the regular oven portion at the same time.

00:20:47   Well, that's not that unreasonable.

00:20:49   Right.

00:20:49   Well, so here's the thing.

00:20:50   Like a refrigerator toaster, this has many, many compromised.

00:20:55   Right?

00:20:55   Well, first let's talk about the interface.

00:20:57   It has an on/off switch, which is nice.

00:20:59   So you can turn the darkness knob to whatever you want

00:21:02   and then use the on/off switch.

00:21:03   But it also, of course, has the toaster plunger part,

00:21:05   where you don't use the on/off switch then.

00:21:06   Then you just push down the little plunger

00:21:08   if you're using the slot toaster thing.

00:21:10   The supposed benefits of slot toasters is that it toasts

00:21:13   faster.

00:21:14   And this is a little bit faster, it's like three minutes for two slices, which is a little

00:21:18   bit faster than the Breville.

00:21:19   But it's not that much faster because it's got two sort of quartz heating elements on

00:21:23   the bottom and then it's got one heating element on the side of the slot and one heating element

00:21:28   on the other side of the slot.

00:21:30   That does speed things up a little bit.

00:21:33   But what do you trade that for?

00:21:34   Well, you put things in the slot toaster on the top and they come out not very evenly

00:21:39   browned at all, which kind of makes sense because it's just one heating element on either

00:21:42   side.

00:21:43   toaster where they have all the resistive wires going all over it, gives nice even heat

00:21:47   over the whole piece of bread. These things come out super spotty, like big dark spots,

00:21:51   big spots that are underdone. And the first time I tried to use it, I put English muffins

00:21:56   in the top, and the slot is very wide, I'm assuming to be able to support bagels, but

00:21:59   it doesn't grip things very closely. So I put English muffins, which are not very wide

00:22:04   in there, and pressed it down, and then tried to pop them back up, and one of the English

00:22:08   muffins had to sort of like bent over because there was too much room in the slot and it

00:22:11   curled back on itself. When I popped it up, it had like crunched over and didn't pop back

00:22:15   up and I had to fish it out with a knife. This is the very first time I'm using this

00:22:18   thing. So the slot toaster is crap. Like, it does not toast as well as a real slot toaster

00:22:22   does. It's a little bit faster than a toaster oven, but when you get out of it, it's worthless.

00:22:25   I would never toast anything in that. It's worse than all of my toaster ovens. It is

00:22:30   not evenly browned. It is not very fast. And then the toaster oven portion is super small.

00:22:34   You can only put two slices of bread in there. Your height is compromised. The little door

00:22:38   that you open it super chintzy feeling and when the thing is done it makes this

00:22:41   terrible long beeping sequence that you wish would stop like it beeps two times

00:22:45   you pull out the toaster just keeps beeping and keeps beeping this is the

00:22:49   new champion for the worst toaster that we have ever tested it is not a good

00:22:53   toaster oven it is not a good slot toaster it and people keep sending this

00:22:56   to me when we were talking about hey you should check this out it's a slot toaster

00:22:58   and toaster oven it is bad at both of those jobs do not buy this product I do

00:23:02   not understand how it has a three and a half star rating on Amazon

00:23:07   That's amazing. So what you're saying is that this is not as good as your other toasters?

00:23:14   It's not, it's just not good. Like the picture they have, the second picture on Amazon, if

00:23:18   you swipe, it shows like this beautifully brown bread coming out. That does not happen.

00:23:22   No bread that looks like that ever comes out of this toaster.

00:23:26   So you're saying that slot toasters may not be sufficient for you?

00:23:30   This is not a slot toaster. I think slot toasters are fine, or would do better than this. Because

00:23:33   again, slot toasters have lots of, you ever see them with little wires that glow orange

00:23:36   inside them there's a whole bunch of those wires crystalized and they brown it evenly

00:23:39   this just has two toaster oven elements sitting on either side of the slots and it also turns

00:23:44   on the two bottom ones it's a mess this was like someone thought it would be a good idea

00:23:48   but it's totally not how much does this cost I didn't even look well it's like $32 it is

00:23:51   $30 so you kind of get what you pay for but please don't buy this mine was red the only

00:23:57   thing it has to recommend is that mine came in red which is kind of cool looking but other

00:24:00   - Other than that.

00:24:01   - Does it match your toaster?

00:24:02   - Thumbs down.

00:24:03   - So fun fact, Hamilton Beach's headquarters

00:24:07   are in Richmond, Virginia.

00:24:09   - You can go there and throw eggs at it later.

00:24:10   (laughing)

00:24:12   I think we've done another Hamilton Beach toaster,

00:24:14   but I don't remember what the model was.

00:24:15   - Yeah, that's all right.

00:24:16   - So thanks a lot to Cards Against Humanity

00:24:18   for sponsoring our show once again.

00:24:20   - All right. - So iOS 9.

00:24:22   - Well, are we done with OS X?

00:24:24   I think we're never done with OS X.

00:24:25   - As far as any of us can remember from the keynote,

00:24:28   - Probably, but as I go to sessions and learn new things,

00:24:31   I'm sure new things will come up.

00:24:32   - Right, okay.

00:24:33   - But the keynote, they didn't spend much time on it, right?

00:24:35   - Well, it wasn't that much, no.

00:24:37   Okay, so I'm sorry, Marco, carry on.

00:24:38   - All right, so big hill-lining features of iOS 9

00:24:42   were a lot of the API improvements,

00:24:43   and then user-facing stuff,

00:24:44   there's this new proactive assistant,

00:24:46   and part of this is on OS X as well,

00:24:47   in the new spotlight window.

00:24:50   It seemed like this is a lot of similar kinds of stuff.

00:24:53   So big disappointment for me,

00:24:56   the forced search page on Springboard is now back.

00:25:01   Remember the way it used to be

00:25:02   where Spotlight was a page on the left?

00:25:03   - Yep, yep.

00:25:04   - Now it's still, now once again, it's a page on the left.

00:25:07   But besides that, it looks pretty good.

00:25:09   I'm curious to see, I mean, they seem to be integrating

00:25:13   a whole lot of web service type stuff in here,

00:25:17   web data results, it really is a continuation of them

00:25:23   kind of encroached you on Google's territory.

00:25:26   And not in some ways, and not quite to the degree

00:25:30   Google does these things, but you could tell

00:25:32   that's kind of the direction they're trying to go in.

00:25:35   I don't know, I mean, to me, I have found things

00:25:39   like the Safari autocomplete for websites

00:25:42   that doesn't use Google at all.

00:25:44   Things like the current spotlight on iOS 8

00:25:47   that tries to integrate web and app store results

00:25:49   and everything, it has some problems sometimes,

00:25:51   but for the most part, this stuff works pretty well for me.

00:25:54   So this looks like a pretty good continuation

00:25:56   of that process, and I'm really excited

00:25:59   about the app indexing kind of thing,

00:26:01   where you can, like now apps, either through their websites

00:26:04   or through the app itself on the phone,

00:26:06   they can publish searchable data for Spotlight

00:26:10   and for Siri, and that's pretty cool.

00:26:11   - Yeah, that's pretty fascinating.

00:26:12   What was interesting to me about the whole iOS 9 section

00:26:14   was we got to see how Apple, well, maybe not the mechanisms,

00:26:19   but the features that Apple is putting together to try to combat, what is it, Google Now,

00:26:26   where, you know, Google will--since Google, in many cases, has all of your data, it knows

00:26:31   when you're going to fly next and when you're going--when you need to have another--when

00:26:35   you have another appointment. Server-side, Google can look at that and say, "Oh, well,

00:26:39   Casey is supposed to go to dinner with Aaron in 20 minutes, but traffic says if he doesn't

00:26:45   and leave now, he's going to miss it.

00:26:47   And it was interesting seeing how Apple's trying to create

00:26:50   some of that Google Now functionality, but without

00:26:53   crawling all your data server-side.

00:26:55   Now, what was very hand-wavy and don't worry your pretty

00:26:58   little faces was, well, how are they really accomplishing

00:27:01   that on the device?

00:27:02   And the implication was--

00:27:04   and in many ways, the statement was, well, it's all

00:27:06   happening on the device, so it's fine, it's fine, it's

00:27:08   fine-- and they made a lot of indirect and direct comments

00:27:12   about privacy and about, "Oh, it's under your control. Everything is on. The users own all

00:27:18   this data. We don't want to know." Actually, they literally occasionally said, "We don't

00:27:22   want to know." Often they said, "We don't know or can't know." And so it was very interesting

00:27:27   to me to see Apple's reaction to that kind of omnipresent Google that people either love

00:27:34   or hate, depending on what your particular opinion is.

00:27:36   Yeah, I don't know if that strategy... I can't tell if that strategy is like, "This is our

00:27:40   corporate differentiator, this is what we believe as people that we don't want that

00:27:44   thing or that it's like that's what they have. They don't have the server capacity.

00:27:48   So we're thinking about the on-device stuff, right? So Google checks your email, figures

00:27:52   out that you have a flight and can do all that stuff because it sees your email everywhere,

00:27:57   right? Whereas Apple's like, oh, this all happens on device. And that sounds fine to

00:28:00   you, like, well, but what if I don't check that mail account on my iPad? Does that mean

00:28:04   my iPad doesn't know I have a flight? And if it's all on device, the answer is, yeah.

00:28:08   How could the iPad know that you have a flight if you're not checking that email account

00:28:12   from your iPad?

00:28:13   Maybe it doesn't matter.

00:28:14   Maybe people don't have 50 email accounts and they check all their email accounts on

00:28:16   every device or whatever.

00:28:17   But basically, the smarts are isolated and confined to the data that's on that device.

00:28:22   But your life may encompass more data than is on any single device.

00:28:27   And so how can it get a picture of my whole life if all the stuff is necessarily local?

00:28:32   I feel like if Apple is going to make more intelligent features, it's going to have to

00:28:35   eventually move away from that.

00:28:36   And I don't think that's such a big deal.

00:28:38   They don't read our iMessages.

00:28:39   The iMessages are all two-way encrypted.

00:28:41   But there should be a way-- you need some global awareness

00:28:45   that is not confined to a device to do really smart things.

00:28:48   So this is a good start for Apple.

00:28:49   You can do lots of smart things just on the device.

00:28:51   But if you tried to explain to a person,

00:28:58   it's hard to say because the watch is not

00:29:00   really an independent device or whatever.

00:29:01   But why doesn't my iPad know that I have a flight?

00:29:05   If I use Google, everything knows.

00:29:07   when I'm on-- and if you use Google,

00:29:08   when I'm on my computer at work, it

00:29:09   pops up a thing in my face that says, oh, don't

00:29:11   forget about your flight.

00:29:12   But on my Apple stuff, only my phone knows.

00:29:15   Why is that?

00:29:16   Well, because you're at work and you're not checking

00:29:18   your home email and your work thing.

00:29:20   You're just checking your exchange.

00:29:21   Trying to explain to them the technical intricacies,

00:29:23   they won't understand.

00:29:24   Then you try to explain, well, it's for privacy reasons.

00:29:27   So Apple doesn't have your data.

00:29:28   And they're like, well, I just want

00:29:29   to let computers tell me where my flight is.

00:29:31   This is the thing that frustrates Marco so much,

00:29:33   that people don't care as much about privacy,

00:29:36   certainly as Marco does, and perhaps not even as much as Apple does. I think their biggest,

00:29:40   their best selling point is we won't sell your stuff for third parties, we won't give

00:29:43   your stuff for third parties. Like if you decide that you trust Apple for whatever reason,

00:29:48   you only have to trust us, you don't have to trust us and everybody we will ever do

00:29:50   business for, which is technically not true because Apple could give you information to

00:29:54   whoever the hell they wanted, but their current terms and conditions and their current strategies,

00:29:57   they're telling you, hey, that's their value proposition, give your data to Apple, we won't

00:30:01   look at it, we won't give it to anybody else. That I think is a little bit easier to sell

00:30:05   for people who are scared of privacy, but I think history has shown that people are

00:30:08   like, "Alright, well, fine, whatever. I have all my data. I just want to know what my flight

00:30:10   is no matter where I am." So I think Apple is going to, not this year, but some future

00:30:16   generation, come up against this barrier and say, "We've done everything we can do local.

00:30:20   How do we get sort of information about you and your life that spans all of our devices

00:30:27   while still keeping your data private?" And I'm not entirely sure they know yet.

00:30:30   - Well, and you know, I think time will tell.

00:30:33   I mean, you know, Apple is really hitting home on this,

00:30:36   or driving this home because I think you're right

00:30:38   that this is some of what they believe.

00:30:41   That they truly believe this is very important.

00:30:44   But also, this is obviously a competitive differentiator.

00:30:46   And I don't think the market cares as much as Apple does.

00:30:51   That might not be a bad thing.

00:30:52   I mean, the market doesn't care about attention to detail

00:30:54   as much as Apple does, or design as much as Apple does

00:30:57   in general either.

00:30:58   That doesn't mean they shouldn't do those things

00:31:00   and that doesn't appeal to a lot of people anyway.

00:31:02   - I think that that influences people

00:31:05   on sort of a subconscious level, right?

00:31:08   Whereas these privacy things I'm not sure they do,

00:31:10   I'm not sure people are even aware of.

00:31:12   Like, we talked about this with iMessage,

00:31:14   I talked about it when I was on Rocket.

00:31:16   Like, the privacy advantages of iMessage

00:31:19   are really beyond people's knowing.

00:31:22   All they know is like,

00:31:23   if I looked at this conversation on my Mac

00:31:25   and then I looked at it on my phone

00:31:27   and some stuff wasn't in both places.

00:31:28   and they don't understand why.

00:31:30   And if you try to explain to them they don't care,

00:31:32   they just want it to be everywhere.

00:31:33   Like Google works the way people,

00:31:35   Google stuff works the way people think

00:31:37   modern computers should work.

00:31:38   And when anybody ever gets used to my stuff everywhere,

00:31:41   anything that is not everywhere,

00:31:43   they think of it as a bug.

00:31:44   Like oh, well my Google stuff is everywhere.

00:31:46   I like that better.

00:31:47   - Right, exactly.

00:31:48   It's funny, quick aside,

00:31:50   I was on the plane on the way to San Francisco,

00:31:53   and I hadn't had my laptop connected to the internet

00:31:56   in I don't know, a few hours or something like that.

00:31:58   and on the plane where I'm on this god-awful terrible connection, which is to be expected

00:32:02   because I'm in a tube 30,000 feet in the sky, I noticed or I was trying to carry on a conversation

00:32:09   with Aaron via iMessage, but it was completely unintelligible because what ended up happening

00:32:14   is I would type something, send it, and then messages from hours ago would come in below

00:32:19   what I had just typed. And so I could not follow the conversation because I was reliving

00:32:24   the conversation from hours before. And it was at the, in the heat of the moment, it

00:32:27   was extremely frustrating. And thankfully, I understand enough about the mechanisms behind

00:32:31   it to have realized, well, you know, I'll just have to wait this out. But I could see

00:32:36   out to a regular user that would be unbelievably infuriating.

00:32:39   >> Yeah, the local on-device, there's lots of low-hanging fruit they can do local on-device.

00:32:43   And I think that they're doing this stuff--what they're doing, all these things they're doing,

00:32:47   despite characterizing it as like the anti-Google, they're doing Google-like things. They're

00:32:50   doing them on your device, but it's very Google-like.

00:32:53   >> Oh, yeah.

00:32:54   >> You know, and these are--and the best things for Google, things that people like from Google.

00:32:57   So I think these sort of intelligent features,

00:33:01   if they work well, will help Apple catch up a little bit

00:33:06   to the good impression that Google makes in people's mind

00:33:09   when it does smart things of like presenting them

00:33:12   with information just-- I mean, the watch helps that.

00:33:14   Presenting them with information just in time

00:33:16   that is relevant to them with context,

00:33:18   like even just the simple stuff of remind me about this later.

00:33:22   Really easy to do, but once someone gets used to it,

00:33:25   any device that doesn't have that very simple context awareness will seem dumber.

00:33:29   Yeah, absolutely. The other thing that I noticed that Apple seems to be doing a lot with is

00:33:34   natural language processing. And I can't think of an example right off the top of my head

00:33:39   that was from the keynote, but something like Fantastical is famous for. So, you know, "Dinner

00:33:44   tomorrow with Aaron at 5 p.m." And you type all that out. You type the words, "Dinner

00:33:49   tomorrow with Aaron at 5 p.m." And it will parse out the relevant pieces and file them

00:33:54   calendar appointment as expected. Well, this wasn't specifically about calendaring in the

00:33:58   keynote, but they were doing similar style of natural language searches in like Spotlight,

00:34:03   for example, which were really impressive. I think they did an example with photos, if

00:34:07   I'm not mistaken.

00:34:08   >> It even worked in Finder on the Mac. I mean, like that engine was--it was on the

00:34:12   Mac, it was in Finder, it was in iOS and Spotlight and in Siri.

00:34:16   >> Yeah.

00:34:17   >> It's--like that was really all over the place and it looked pretty impressive. The

00:34:21   The challenge I think for, there's gonna be two challenges.

00:34:25   Like you know, geeks like us,

00:34:26   we won't know what we can do there.

00:34:29   - We just wanna use the K prefix constants,

00:34:31   K, M, D, last modified, exactly.

00:34:34   Like that query syntax makes sense to geeks.

00:34:37   I remember loving Altavista because it worked

00:34:39   in such a sort of deterministic way.

00:34:43   You could do plus and minus words,

00:34:45   the pages would have those words in it,

00:34:46   it made absolute sense.

00:34:47   Then when Google came along it's like,

00:34:49   I can type words into the Google search box,

00:34:50   But some of these words might not even appear on the page.

00:34:53   Because if I type, like, how to cook an omelet,

00:34:55   the page might not even have the word how on it.

00:34:57   It's a different mode.

00:34:58   So if you're a programmer, you're like,

00:34:59   I just want a deterministic machine.

00:35:00   You just tell me the query language,

00:35:01   and I will construct the query.

00:35:03   But that is not how people query things.

00:35:04   And so, yeah, Spotlight has had all these features

00:35:07   for a long time.

00:35:08   Nobody uses them except for geeks.

00:35:09   And even geeks can't remember all the stupid K prefix

00:35:11   contents.

00:35:12   So this upgrade to Spotlight of having natural language

00:35:15   querying-- and the Fantastic L is a great example of, like,

00:35:18   I use Google's appointments partly

00:35:20   because they do a little bit of that natural language stuff.

00:35:22   Like I do like, you know, 1 p.m. haircut.

00:35:24   Even something as simple as that.

00:35:26   Trying to enter a 1 p.m. haircut in Apple's things

00:35:29   is way harder than typing 1 p.m.'s base haircut,

00:35:32   and it shouldn't be harder.

00:35:33   And so Apple is, again, playing catch up here,

00:35:35   but long overdue.

00:35:36   And the thing, I think there's still a lot of room to grow,

00:35:38   but when they say like, oh, you know,

00:35:41   dinner with Aaron at seven,

00:35:42   what if you knew two people named Aaron?

00:35:43   - Yeah, yeah. - That's when things

00:35:44   fall down and like, it's like, oh,

00:35:46   well maybe it presents a picker

00:35:47   and shows me the two people in Aaron, I pick the one.

00:35:49   That's like the next level.

00:35:50   The next level is look, 99% of the time I mean that Aaron.

00:35:54   And when I say Aaron, just pick that one.

00:35:57   Put the picker up and if I don't do anything with it,

00:35:59   just default it to that.

00:36:01   It's like getting up to sort of human assistant level

00:36:03   where I don't need to clarify who it is.

00:36:06   Or even if you could like, if they were all on

00:36:08   Find My Friends and one of the people is not

00:36:11   within flying distance to be there at some point

00:36:13   and they can figure out because they live in a different state.

00:36:14   I don't know.

00:36:15   There is a long way to go to do intelligent assistant type

00:36:18   So it's good seeing Apple getting a start in this area.

00:36:22   - Well, and a lot of this stuff is hard.

00:36:23   Like, if you think about an actual assistant,

00:36:25   which I don't think any of us have ever actually had, right?

00:36:27   - Nope.

00:36:28   - Okay, but-- - Hops, right?

00:36:30   No?

00:36:30   Not a big help?

00:36:31   - He's of limited usefulness.

00:36:32   He's mostly moral support.

00:36:33   (laughing)

00:36:34   But, you know, he, so,

00:36:37   actual assistants even have problems with these things.

00:36:41   Like, human beings have problems with a lot of these things.

00:36:43   Like, if you say something that is ambiguous

00:36:45   or can be easily misunderstood

00:36:48   mean something else, then this is a problem that on some levels can't be solved or has

00:36:55   like a ceiling on how well it can be solved.

00:36:57   Well, I mean, that's not, they need to clarify.

00:36:58   The system, a good assistant would clarify and so will a computer, but the computer can

00:37:01   be maddening because it clarifies every time.

00:37:03   That's like, oh, Jesus, yes, it's still that errand.

00:37:06   Almost always going to be that, unless another errand is in play, like that has an appointment

00:37:10   with them, I've received an email from them recently, things that a human assistant would

00:37:14   know whether they have, the human assistant would not repeatedly clarify which errand

00:37:17   you're talking about.

00:37:18   Because there's two in your address book.

00:37:20   Like, just because they're in my address book,

00:37:21   they don't have equal value.

00:37:23   They don't have equal relevance to me.

00:37:24   And that type of information about who is-- again,

00:37:26   this requires global awareness.

00:37:28   Maybe that person, other Aaron, is in your address book

00:37:31   because you sent them an email three years ago.

00:37:33   The relevance of that person, that entry,

00:37:35   you don't want to delete it because you might want

00:37:36   to email them again like they're your real estate agent

00:37:38   or something.

00:37:38   You want to put it--

00:37:40   yeah, we've got a long way to go in this area.

00:37:42   But yeah, it's good to see Apple getting started.

00:37:44   - And that's the kind of area that Google is usually

00:37:48   much better at than Apple.

00:37:49   And that's why I worry a little bit about,

00:37:51   I'm curious to see how this ends up working with Apple,

00:37:54   if they show signs of being able to do this kind of thing

00:37:57   and improving in this area.

00:37:58   Because historically, again, I think they've lagged

00:38:01   very far behind Google historically

00:38:02   in that kind of big data problem.

00:38:05   But we will see.

00:38:06   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:38:08   Do we want to talk about the Apple Pay changes?

00:38:11   And more specifically, actually, I wanted to bring up,

00:38:14   we saw two women on stage today.

00:38:16   - Yeah.

00:38:17   - Which was awesome and surprising.

00:38:19   And it was so surprising that I actually wanted to call out

00:38:22   a text message I got from a coworker

00:38:24   as I was sitting in the keynote.

00:38:26   I believe this, she was referring to,

00:38:28   that my coworker was referring to the second woman

00:38:31   who came on stage, and I apologize

00:38:32   because I don't remember their names,

00:38:34   but I got this text message from my friend at work, Chris.

00:38:39   She said, "What?

00:38:40   a woman presenting something at Apple,

00:38:42   then that was phenomenal to her.

00:38:45   And this is someone who is like really enthusiastic

00:38:48   about the watch, but generally speaking,

00:38:50   doesn't pay the kind of attention that we pay.

00:38:52   So this is like a quote unquote normal,

00:38:54   which is such a dismissive way of describing her.

00:38:56   And I don't mean it to be dismissive,

00:38:57   but someone who doesn't really follow this like we do

00:39:00   was stunned that there were,

00:39:02   was one woman brought on stage, let alone two.

00:39:04   And so I'm really pleased that Apple's finally listening

00:39:09   and making these strides.

00:39:10   And a friend of the show, Christina Warren,

00:39:12   who was on the show, what, two weeks ago,

00:39:14   she actually interviewed Tim Cook-- was it Sunday night,

00:39:17   I believe?

00:39:18   Something like that.

00:39:19   For Mashable.

00:39:20   And she had pressed him on this a little bit.

00:39:22   And he said, basically, watch the space.

00:39:24   And sure enough, we watched the space,

00:39:26   and there were two women presenters.

00:39:27   And I thought they were great.

00:39:28   Yeah, that was teased in that interview.

00:39:30   And it's good to see it.

00:39:33   Tim Cook was very forthcoming with the whole diversity report

00:39:35   and everything, that they have not done well in here,

00:39:37   and they're making changes to improve things.

00:39:39   Was it half women?

00:39:40   Was it majority women?

00:39:41   No, but it was more than zero.

00:39:43   Like, you know, they're making progress.

00:39:44   - It was two and seven.

00:39:45   - Right, and the other thing to keep in mind about WWDC

00:39:49   is like, well, the glory things like the keynote

00:39:51   and like the State of the Union used to be just all men,

00:39:53   right, and now getting women there is super important.

00:39:55   But if you don't go to WWDC, you may not realize

00:39:58   how many technical sessions at WWDC are presented

00:40:03   either primarily by women, like they're the main speaker

00:40:05   for the whole thing or incorporate women.

00:40:07   There are women, that was the whole thing,

00:40:09   it was like there are women on Apple's team.

00:40:10   Apple's diversity is not great, but it's not terrible.

00:40:14   It was very commonplace to see women giving presentations

00:40:17   and any type of presentation at WOEDC, right?

00:40:20   But you never saw them in the keynote,

00:40:22   so that's what made it all the more glaring.

00:40:23   It's like, well, we've got a company full

00:40:25   of all these people, but really,

00:40:27   the only people who ever get to talk is Tim Cook

00:40:28   and a bunch of other similarly aged,

00:40:30   similarly appearing men.

00:40:32   (laughing)

00:40:32   And so yeah, that makes it, and that's the whole thing.

00:40:35   We didn't know the names of these people.

00:40:36   Steve Jobs was big in not telling you the names

00:40:38   of anybody who was in the company,

00:40:39   except for the big headline executives.

00:40:41   That's why everyone thought it would be Angela,

00:40:43   whose last name I can't pronounce.

00:40:44   Angela Ahrendts, like, oh, she'll definitely be up there,

00:40:46   because she's the woman who's on their

00:40:48   C-level executives page.

00:40:51   But there are tons of women at Apple,

00:40:52   and I don't think it was particularly hard to find them.

00:40:55   Who's the head of Apple Pay?

00:40:56   Apparently this woman, who we never knew before,

00:40:58   because who knows, half her present the Apple Pay part,

00:41:02   instead of having Phil Schiller do it or something, right?

00:41:04   It just makes perfect sense.

00:41:05   And I think they did great.

00:41:06   I think they both looked a little bit nervous.

00:41:08   As we know, the men who presented for the first time

00:41:10   also felt a little nervous.

00:41:11   Oh, yeah.

00:41:12   I think that the second one up, she

00:41:14   had a really good joke about reading ESPN for the articles.

00:41:17   And she seemed very relaxed.

00:41:18   And the reaction to them in the room was good.

00:41:23   They did much better than a lot of men first time presenters.

00:41:26   And it's difficult for them to be in the spotlight about,

00:41:28   oh, are you just a woman presenter?

00:41:30   These are people in charge of these parts of the product.

00:41:33   They're not just plucked out of the,

00:41:34   oh, you're a woman, can you talk about this product?

00:41:36   They're in charge of this, this is their job.

00:41:38   So I thought it was exactly what it should have been.

00:41:42   The actual women behind important technologies

00:41:45   doing presentations on those technologies

00:41:47   that they created, that their team created.

00:41:49   So big thumbs up.

00:41:50   - Yeah, definitely.

00:41:51   So I brought up Apple Pay because it was

00:41:54   the woman who was in charge of Apple Pay that presented.

00:41:56   I didn't think there was too much there to unpack.

00:41:59   The couple of highlights for me were loyalty cards

00:42:01   being integrated into Passbook,

00:42:04   which is sort of not Passbook anymore,

00:42:05   we'll get there in a second.

00:42:07   That's really exciting to me because about a year ago

00:42:09   I tried to slim down my wallet from being as thick

00:42:11   as Jon's wallet, which I'm looking at next to him

00:42:13   and it's like four feet thick.

00:42:15   - It's all money.

00:42:16   - Oh, listen to this guy, listen to this guy.

00:42:19   Making it rain in here.

00:42:20   - Yeah, the singles, man.

00:42:21   - But no, the--

00:42:22   - It's like 15 singles in here.

00:42:23   - We'll have to do--

00:42:24   - We already stripped club, but it's cool.

00:42:26   - Oh God.

00:42:27   So we're gonna have to talk in the post show

00:42:28   about how wrong a tri-fold wallet is,

00:42:29   but we'll leave that for another time.

00:42:31   But anyway, so loyalty cards are now in Passbook,

00:42:34   which when I went through this like wallet cleansing

00:42:37   and purging event about a year ago,

00:42:39   what I found was I had a bunch of loyalty cards

00:42:42   that I use once a month, but I wanna have them

00:42:45   because they save me money or earn me perks

00:42:48   or whatever the case may be.

00:42:49   And so I wanted to have them with me,

00:42:51   and so what I ended up doing was putting those all

00:42:52   in my glove box, well, in my car.

00:42:55   Well, it would be awesome to have that in Passbook,

00:42:57   so I don't need to worry about that anymore,

00:43:00   and that's exactly what's coming with iOS 9.

00:43:02   I thought that was awesome.

00:43:04   Any thoughts about that before I move on, gentlemen?

00:43:06   The favorite thing I have about loyalty cards

00:43:08   is that once you get a loyalty card

00:43:12   and you put it into Apple Pay, it's

00:43:14   a signifier that store accepts Apple Pay,

00:43:16   because otherwise how would they let

00:43:18   you put your loyalty card in it?

00:43:19   So if you're going to slim down your wallet,

00:43:22   you should be pulling out credit cards that can go into Apple

00:43:26   Pay, pulling out loyalty cards that go into Apple Pay.

00:43:28   And all of that means another location

00:43:29   where you can use Apple Pay.

00:43:30   And having used Apple Pay now for a little while,

00:43:32   I wish every place could use Apple Pay.

00:43:34   Because it's much more convenient

00:43:35   than digging out your big, giant wallet

00:43:36   and pulling things out of it.

00:43:37   So it's gonna take a while for us to get there,

00:43:39   but I can imagine certain people,

00:43:42   if they pick where they shop very carefully,

00:43:43   which is exactly what Apple wants,

00:43:44   they're like, you should, you know, frequent Apple Pay stores

00:43:47   as a reward for them carrying Apple Pay.

00:43:50   I've been surprised so far at the success of Apple Pay.

00:43:52   One of the places I tried to use Apple Pay,

00:43:54   recently I didn't take it, was up on that slide,

00:43:56   Trader Joe's.

00:43:57   I went there, I'm like, do you take Apple Pay?

00:43:58   They're like, oh, sorry, we don't.

00:43:59   Well, they're going to this year.

00:44:00   So they're knocking them down one by one, all the stories

00:44:04   that we go to.

00:44:05   That's awesome.

00:44:06   The other thing I wanted to note about Apple Pay

00:44:08   was that they are now partnering with Square--

00:44:12   I'm assuming it's a partnership.

00:44:13   But anyway, they're partnering with Square

00:44:15   to make some sort of NFC-based Apple Pay reader

00:44:19   to work with Square, which I thought

00:44:21   was a phenomenally bright idea for both companies.

00:44:24   I mean, to me, it seemed like a win-win.

00:44:26   Because Square is becoming kind of omnipresent,

00:44:29   and even in places like Richmond,

00:44:31   you know, it's not a San Francisco thing.

00:44:33   I mean, even in Richmond, you see any sort

00:44:35   of independent vendor is using Square now.

00:44:38   And to have Apple Pay support for something

00:44:40   as ubiquitous as Square, I think is extremely bright.

00:44:43   And it seems that both Square and Apple

00:44:46   are pushing that pretty heavily, which to me is brilliant.

00:44:49   So I definitely applaud that.

00:44:51   - Yeah, I mean, that is a genius move.

00:44:52   Like, I'm kinda, honestly, I'm kinda surprised

00:44:55   it didn't happen when Apple Pay was launched last fall.

00:44:57   But I'm glad it's happening now

00:44:59   because that will make it a lot easier

00:45:01   for a lot more places to take it.

00:45:03   - Yeah, they're complementary systems

00:45:04   because remember Square has always been like,

00:45:05   oh, this is the little reader

00:45:07   that you put into your headphone jack on your thing

00:45:09   and if you have a kiosk, you can use an iPad kiosk

00:45:12   and then hook up a card swipe or thing to it.

00:45:16   They always have that sort of,

00:45:16   it's like the last mile problem of payment.

00:45:19   Like how do you get a thing from a customer

00:45:21   that lets you pay with?

00:45:21   And magnetic stripes are so barbaric

00:45:23   that there was always the barrier.

00:45:25   It's like, now that has been solved.

00:45:29   Hopefully your well-heeled customers all have iOS devices that have Apple Pay.

00:45:34   And it works best in cities filled with people who have iOS devices and stuff.

00:45:40   Square is filling a need that like, you know, it's not like Walmart is going to use Square.

00:45:44   The big credit card processors are geared towards the big customers, but if you're just

00:45:48   selling a bunch of stuff out of a kiosk or something, like a craft fair, having Square

00:45:52   is awesome because it makes you as fancy as the big vendors.

00:45:55   But it's something you can set up yourself in a weekend

00:45:57   and take payments from anybody with an iPhone.

00:46:00   - Yeah, yeah, I definitely applaud it.

00:46:02   Marco, why don't you tell us about something else that's cool?

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00:49:23   All right.

00:49:24   So we should continue with iOS 9.

00:49:28   And today was Federico Vittucci's birthday.

00:49:32   It was Christmas.

00:49:33   It was New Year's.

00:49:34   It was everything to Federico.

00:49:37   And I actually exchanged a couple of text

00:49:38   messages with him.

00:49:39   And suffice to say, he is beside himself.

00:49:41   Did that cost him like a million dollars in roaming fees?

00:49:43   I don't know.

00:49:44   Well, thank goodness it was actually iMessages.

00:49:47   But yeah, anyway, there's a lot of attention paid to the iPad.

00:49:51   And a lot of features-- or maybe not that many,

00:49:54   but important features to make using the iPad as a workhorse,

00:50:00   a much easier and more productive device.

00:50:04   The quick and easy ones, they seem

00:50:06   to be doubling down on keyboard support, physical keyboard

00:50:09   support. So they have an alt tab switcher or command tab. Oh, now I'm gonna get the email for that. Oh, God. Yeah, now I want to crawl in a hole. I'm just gonna

00:50:17   crawl under Marco's bed real quick and cry. They have a command tab switcher. Yeah, that's not weird at all. They have a command tab switcher. I think they have more

00:50:26   keyboard shortcuts. They kind of flashed a few things on screen and I didn't get a

00:50:29   chance to catch them all. But what was really interesting is, and I want to play

00:50:33   with it because it did not look terribly intuitive to me, but I suspect once I use

00:50:37   it won't be so bad. Is the keyboard on iPad apparently is now a trackpad when

00:50:41   you use more than one finger at a time? Did you guys kind of catch, I was trying

00:50:45   to watch how that works and it was flying by way too quick for me to really

00:50:49   understand. This is a feature of one of my favorite iOS apps that I really hope

00:50:52   that Apple would bring everywhere, but I use it on my iPhone. Twitterific added a

00:50:57   feature in a recent version where if you swipe, not on the keyboard, but if you

00:51:02   swipe on the text area where you're composing the tweet, it will move the

00:51:05   insertion point. Oh really? Yes. Oh I didn't know that. You should try it and once you get used to that you hate every other text field.

00:51:10   This is the thing that has always annoyed me, it always annoys me about iOS

00:51:14   overall the entire system. I understand why they do but any sort of gesture that requires for you to hold down for a certain period

00:51:21   of time is

00:51:23   sort of just

00:51:25   against my computer religion. Like

00:51:27   all of the interface elements that I was brought up with

00:51:32   React as fast as the computer can react to whatever it is you're doing right so you click on a window close widget the window closes

00:51:39   Maybe there's an animation or whatever

00:51:41   But the window closes right you double click as fast as you can double click it registers double click it happens

00:51:46   But iOS because of the limited

00:51:48   Interface had to have a bunch of things where you have to tap and hold and there's nothing you can do to make that

00:51:52   Hold faster you don't hold for the minimum amount of time you don't get tap and hold and so many things on iOS require that

00:51:58   Selecting text tap hold and that hold I mean

00:52:01   Maybe it doesn't bother most people, but I feel like I'm waiting for

00:52:05   The computer is waiting for me. I'm waiting for the computer. We're just waiting together in a pointless way, right?

00:52:10   Moving the insertion point if I'm really frustrating if I want to put the insertion point at the beginning of the line

00:52:16   I frequently tap. Oh, I'm too close to the edge of the digitizer didn't get it tap

00:52:20   Oh, it's not still not going tap if I want to move left one character

00:52:23   It requires a super precise tap on my giant meaty finger to move it left one character

00:52:28   Whereas in Twitterrific, swipe left, the insertion point moves to left.

00:52:32   Swipe left, left, left, left three characters as fast as I can swipe.

00:52:35   Right, right, right, left, left, left, right.

00:52:37   And so what they were showing was a different way to do the same thing.

00:52:40   To say, look how fast I can move the cursor around.

00:52:42   There's no way you could accurately move the cursor around as fast as they were demoing.

00:52:46   And yeah, they're basically using the surface like a track pair, which is different than swiping,

00:52:49   but it's like, it's like they, there's no mouse on iOS, they didn't talk about this,

00:52:54   about this, but this is really darn close to controlling a cursor with a trackpad on

00:52:59   an iOS device. Your finger is not the pointer. Your finger is moving around on this surface

00:53:04   and another thing, let's call it the pointer, is moving around over there. And I love this

00:53:09   feature in principle. I haven't tried it yet to see if the implementation is intuitive,

00:53:14   but I love the limited version of this in Twitterrific and lots of other apps that have

00:53:18   implemented this. I think Android has lots of versions of this with their various keyboards

00:53:22   and interfaces.

00:53:23   I hate tap and hold.

00:53:25   Anything that lets me move the insertion point around,

00:53:27   I'm really glad they're doing this.

00:53:29   I really hope they also do it on iPhone.

00:53:31   It wasn't clear to me which one of these features stay on iPad

00:53:33   and which ones come to all iOS devices.

00:53:35   Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was iPad only.

00:53:37   Yeah, that's what I thought.

00:53:38   For this release.

00:53:38   Maybe next year.

00:53:39   Some things were.

00:53:40   And some things-- like, I think you're right about the trackpad.

00:53:43   But I think some other aspects of the new keyboard

00:53:45   were either shown or mentioned to be available in both.

00:53:48   Anyway, we'll install the babies and we'll find out.

00:53:51   But I think there is no reason that a lot of these features should be limited to iPad.

00:53:55   Because again, the place where I use the little swipey feature the most is on an iPhone app.

00:53:59   With the trackpad area, it might be like, well, you need to have a big area to move

00:54:02   around or they don't want you to put two fingers down.

00:54:05   It wasn't one of the gestures, like a two finger thing.

00:54:07   Like how do I find a place for two fingers on my iPhone thing?

00:54:10   But I'm like, please, Apple, we need, if anything, you need even more sort of an easy way to

00:54:15   move the cursor around and do text selections in a tiny little iPhone screen.

00:54:19   It's so much harder to get your fingers in there and just get a six plus. Oh god still too small. Yeah

00:54:24   Mike was wrong

00:54:26   Then the other big feature that they talked about for the iPad is multi like real honest-to-goodness

00:54:32   Multitasking in the sense of multiple things on the screen. Don't call windows

00:54:36   yeah, they're not windows right but but multiple apps on the screen at the same time and

00:54:41   Remind me the terminology because I was paying close attention and it in because I haven't played with this yet

00:54:47   it hasn't really sank in.

00:54:48   So there's some mechanism where you can like swipe in an app

00:54:53   temporarily, but you can't interact with it,

00:54:55   is that correct?

00:54:56   - No, so there's the slide in or slide over,

00:54:58   whatever it's called, where it's almost like

00:55:00   notification center where it just kinda like literally

00:55:04   like you can swipe from the right and you can slide in

00:55:07   an iPhone width app over top of the running iPad app

00:55:12   that's running full screen.

00:55:13   or you can actually shrink the current running app

00:55:18   and actually have them both side by side at the same time.

00:55:21   So if you only do the slide over thing,

00:55:24   the slide over thing,

00:55:25   first of all that works on more iPads.

00:55:27   That works on your RetinaPad Mini.

00:55:30   - Hi Steven.

00:55:31   (laughing)

00:55:32   - And that works on most iPads above the A5 CPU.

00:55:37   So anything with a Retina screen

00:55:40   that isn't an iPad 3 basically.

00:55:42   and then if you have the iPad Air 2,

00:55:46   only the most recent full-sized iPad,

00:55:48   then that one is the only one that can do

00:55:51   actually running two apps indefinitely.

00:55:54   'Cause the other mode where you just slide one in

00:55:56   temporarily, then the background app becomes unavailable

00:56:00   until you slide that app out of the way again.

00:56:02   So I think that's mostly, I mean,

00:56:05   it might be a power user price segmentation issue partly,

00:56:09   but I think it's probably also just RAM concerns

00:56:12   of keeping two apps active.

00:56:14   Is it RAM, though?

00:56:15   I was going to guess that it was CPU.

00:56:16   Because at first I was thinking RAM,

00:56:18   but then I was thinking, it can't be RAM,

00:56:20   because all those same apps are expected to run on machines

00:56:24   with one gig of RAM.

00:56:25   That's true.

00:56:25   Right?

00:56:26   And so if it's CPU, I could think of, well--

00:56:30   because it's not limited, I don't think.

00:56:32   Is it limited?

00:56:33   You have to do special support for the splitter?

00:56:35   Or is there a limit on what kind of apps

00:56:38   you can put in a split pane?

00:56:40   I don't think there is.

00:56:41   Either way, what I was thinking of is,

00:56:43   if say you wanted to split between two games,

00:56:45   and both games use every ounce of computing and GPU power,

00:56:50   the iPad Air 2 may be the only thing

00:56:52   that can run two apps simultaneously

00:56:54   with acceptable performance if one or both of those apps

00:56:57   are very demanding.

00:56:58   - Yeah, and this might be, if it is CPU relevant,

00:57:03   this might be why the iPad Air 2 shipped with this third core

00:57:07   that they really underplayed at the launch.

00:57:09   They didn't even mention it, I don't think.

00:57:11   And the iPad Air 2 has had ridiculous performance

00:57:15   compared to other iOS devices.

00:57:16   It's just so much faster.

00:57:17   And here's the thing.

00:57:18   You're like, well, so what?

00:57:20   They sell Macs all the time with wimpy CPUs.

00:57:21   And it's like, well, if it's slow, it's slow.

00:57:23   But there's the expectation in an iOS device

00:57:26   that if an app works, it should always work.

00:57:30   And if it works, and then you split the screen,

00:57:33   and all of a sudden it gets super slow and crappy,

00:57:35   you're like, oh, well, this stinks.

00:57:38   On the Mac, you're used to it.

00:57:40   The expectation on the Mac is if you're

00:57:41   doing a bunch of other crap, one of your apps

00:57:43   could get worse because you're doing a bunch of other crap.

00:57:44   But on iOS, it's like, well, it either runs or it doesn't run.

00:57:47   It's more like a game console.

00:57:48   It either works or it doesn't work.

00:57:50   And to have an app that seems to work,

00:57:52   but then you bring in a different application

00:57:54   and a splitter pane and run them both at the same time,

00:57:56   and then it doesn't work as well,

00:57:57   like the frame rate suffers or the sound-- sound's probably

00:58:00   not going to stutter.

00:58:01   But whatever the working versus nonworking state is,

00:58:04   the thing that's trying to keep the expectation is, look,

00:58:07   if your app runs, it will continue to run,

00:58:09   even if there's another one running right next to it.

00:58:12   It's like an appliance.

00:58:13   They just don't want it to--

00:58:15   and you're right, it could just be market segmentation,

00:58:16   and they want to sell more iPad Air 2s, whatever.

00:58:18   I'm looking for a technical reason, basically.

00:58:20   - And honestly, it's probably some of both.

00:58:23   They do want to sell more iPad Air 2s.

00:58:25   They do want to just sell more new iPads, period.

00:58:27   Because one of the biggest problems they have

00:58:29   for iPad sales is that old iPads continue

00:58:31   to be pretty useful.

00:58:33   - People could be using them.

00:58:33   They don't break enough.

00:58:34   - Right, exactly.

00:58:36   A lot of people still use like iPad 3s, iPad 2s,

00:58:39   and they're fine.

00:58:41   So they might get a little slower over time,

00:58:44   but there aren't a lot of compelling reasons

00:58:46   pushing people to upgrade their iPads.

00:58:48   And this, if you've been frustrated by the limitations

00:58:53   of trying to get quote, work done on the iPad,

00:58:57   a lot of people are gonna look at this and say,

00:58:58   "Oh, well, if I get the iPad Air 2

00:59:00   "or whatever new iPads come out this fall presumably,

00:59:03   "then I'll be able to work better."

00:59:05   So that will drive sales, no question.

00:59:07   - The one thing they didn't show

00:59:08   that I really thought they were gonna show,

00:59:09   at least maybe they did and I blacked out

00:59:11   during this period, you guys can tell me,

00:59:13   they had the thing side by side and they were like,

00:59:14   "Look, and if you have a link in a Notes app

00:59:16   "and Safari's on the left, I can tap the link

00:59:18   "and it loads right in Safari."

00:59:19   Like, you know, you didn't have to switch apps,

00:59:21   you have everything in context.

00:59:22   I really wanted them to grab something

00:59:24   and drag it from one of those panes into the other.

00:59:27   I really wanted that to happen.

00:59:28   They didn't do it, right?

00:59:29   - Next year.

00:59:30   - Thought they did, didn't they,

00:59:31   weren't they in the Notes app

00:59:32   and they took like a link from Safari into--

00:59:34   Maybe.

00:59:35   Or was that on the Mac?

00:59:36   See, that's what I'm not sure.

00:59:37   I'm not confident that it was on an iPad.

00:59:39   You're talking about Federico Viticci, who is a big fan of using the iPad as his main

00:59:45   computer.

00:59:46   And I've always been talking about the iPad Pro.

00:59:48   The iPad is a better computing device for regular people because you can throw it in

00:59:51   front of somebody and they can do useful work in it much easier than if you threw a Mac

00:59:54   or a PC in front of them.

00:59:55   So this is the future of computing.

00:59:57   But if it's going to be the future of computing, it needs more capabilities.

01:00:00   And one of those capabilities is like, what if I'm just assembling a bunch of stuff?

01:00:04   I'm trying to make a document out of a bunch of bits and pieces. It's just a pain in the

01:00:07   butt if you have to switch the whole, you know, your entire contents of your skin is

01:00:10   replaced and something else is replaced. And like two things they announced today. One,

01:00:13   the iCloud Drive app and two side by side things starts to give you a workflow that

01:00:18   looks a little bit more like, hey, I can pull from here, pull from there, assemble a big

01:00:21   document made of media and a bunch of other places, open this up in an editor application,

01:00:26   tweak it, drag the resulting version into this. Like an iPad Pro now has an even more

01:00:31   reason to exist because, I mean, maybe you don't get three splitter panes, but the two

01:00:35   splitters that you get can be bigger and better, and it can have a bigger CPU to have more

01:00:39   stuff going on. It's not like they're reinventing the Mac on the iPad, they're trying to give

01:00:43   you the capabilities that you have on the Mac without the complexity, without as much

01:00:48   as the complexity.

01:00:49   Well, and also, you know, with the better hardware keyboard support, you can do all

01:00:53   these things and do them more efficiently with a hardware keyboard, which is also appealing.

01:00:59   It was a bummer to me, though, as a pretty big fan of the iPad Mini. It was a bummer

01:01:02   that as it exists today, there is no iPad Mini that supports the--I think they're calling

01:01:08   it app pinning, which is like the split screen--with split screen two apps running simultaneously

01:01:13   set up. And I would hope and assume that this fall, when the iPad Mini--what are we up to,

01:01:18   four, something like that?

01:01:19   >> Yeah. Yeah.

01:01:20   >> When the next iPad Mini comes out, that maybe it would be supported. But I also wonder

01:01:24   if maybe they'll say, well, this screen is too physically small to support two windows

01:01:30   at once. So no, this is only a full-size iPad thing. And even though I only use my iPad

01:01:34   for goofing off 99% of the time, I still love my iPad Mini. And I wasn't planning to go

01:01:40   back earlier in the conversation, I wasn't sitting here now planning on upgrading to

01:01:44   the next one until I found a reason to do so. And today, I might have found the reason

01:01:48   to do so. So I'm a perfect example of someone who might have just been pushed into upgrading,

01:01:53   who may not have otherwise.

01:01:55   And the picture-in-picture thing, I think, is another thing where it doesn't require

01:01:58   -- because you would assume video playback, you know, there's dedicated hardware for that

01:02:01   and everything.

01:02:02   It could be done even by wimpy devices.

01:02:04   Even that is like, well, what if, you know, I'm using the MLB app, but I want to also

01:02:08   be like reading email or scrolling through Twitter?

01:02:11   Picture-in-picture.

01:02:12   Throw a little sports window up in the corner and now you can do two things.

01:02:15   That really changes the game for whole classes of applications where you're like -- people

01:02:20   will go away from the iPad visit. They think of it as a single tasking device, even if

01:02:23   multiple things are going on. Just the ability to have a little video thing running in the

01:02:28   corner, even if it's just like a YouTube video or whatever, just to have that off in the

01:02:31   corner and to be able to do other things really changes the game on the iPad. Now it's not

01:02:36   your Mac, but it's like going from zero to one. It's a huge difference, right?

01:02:41   I couldn't agree more, because on the plane on the way here, I was trying to watch an

01:02:46   episode of Top Gear and then I kept getting text messages from like either

01:02:50   you guys or Aaron or something like that and in that situation because I'm in a

01:02:55   plane I can only have one device on the internet at a time because that's the

01:02:59   way plane Wi-Fi works. No it's not. Go ahead. Well that okay. You gotta buy the all-day pass from

01:03:04   from GoGo before you're on the plane and then you can sign up all your devices.

01:03:07   What? Yeah. Mind blown. Well anyway I had thought that I could only have one

01:03:12   device online at a time. And so what ended up happening was because I

01:03:16   couldn't effectively watch this video without being interrupted constantly, I

01:03:20   said, "You know what? Screw it. I'll take the iPad with the nicer keyboard that's

01:03:23   easier to type on. I'll take that off the internet and I'll put my phone on the

01:03:27   internet." And I had them both sitting on my tray table like a lunatic because

01:03:30   that was the most efficient way for me to do everything I wanted at once, which

01:03:34   was watch this episode of Top Gear while also talking to you guys or Aaron or

01:03:37   whomever. And if I had picture-in-picture, that would have made this so

01:03:41   much better and easier to deal with.

01:03:43   - Or if you had a Mac, if you had a Mac,

01:03:44   you just have the movie window in the background

01:03:47   and your message window, like, you know,

01:03:49   and you could arrange them however you wanted.

01:03:50   Picture in picture is a little mini version of that.

01:03:52   - Well, what's interesting about this too is like,

01:03:54   this is major features that are iPad only,

01:03:57   possibly big iPad only, that the iPhones can't do

01:04:01   and probably won't get if I had to take a guess.

01:04:03   And so that, I think, like, they really have to do something

01:04:08   to try to give more people a reason to use iPads

01:04:11   and use them more often over just,

01:04:14   oh, I'll just get a big phone.

01:04:15   And from Apple's point of view,

01:04:17   from our point of view, we might just say,

01:04:19   well, just make the phones better and we'll deal with it.

01:04:20   But a lot of people, they're going to now be pushed

01:04:24   into either using their existing iPads more

01:04:28   or getting new iPads.

01:04:29   And from Apple's point of view,

01:04:31   that makes sense as a goal, as something they need to do.

01:04:35   So we'll see what happens.

01:04:36   I think what they're doing on the iPad is smart.

01:04:39   I don't know if it will turn around the kind of like plateau of usefulness. The

01:04:44   iPad seems to have hit for many people. I don't know, but I guess I will tell. I

01:04:50   think you really have to. I think Apple's waiting of us, so you really

01:04:52   have to age out the old ones like they're just like come on guys get rid

01:04:55   of stop using those things. Just they want the old devices to go away and

01:05:00   like I said, there's no differentiator like they don't. They don't know what

01:05:04   the product upgrade cycle is in the iPad because the product is too young and now

01:05:07   they're trying to hasten the demise of these older devices

01:05:10   because they're holding back the progress of the platform,

01:05:13   as Apple used to so often talk about at WWDC.

01:05:16   And this is saying, all right, we are moving forward.

01:05:20   You can't have these nice things.

01:05:22   We really hope these nice things are compelling to customers

01:05:24   because that's the only way we'll move things forward.

01:05:27   Although in another very interesting major way,

01:05:30   the new version of iOS doesn't age out any old devices.

01:05:34   I know.

01:05:35   And they're still selling A5 devices.

01:05:37   I know.

01:05:37   This fifth-gen iPod Touch is up there on the supported thing.

01:05:39   It's like, are you kidding me?

01:05:41   That's what I think about-- that's why--

01:05:43   I mean, you mentioned, why can't they bring split screen?

01:05:46   If you're making a thing, and you're like,

01:05:48   I want this game to work on all the things.

01:05:50   I'm going to make this game work on an A5.

01:05:52   It's probably so hard for you to get that game to work on an A5

01:05:54   that they said, oh, by the way, you get half of an A5,

01:05:56   because they get split screen.

01:05:57   You're like, oh, well, forget it.

01:05:59   I can't support that at all.

01:06:00   They should just get rid of the A5-class devices.

01:06:03   But yeah, it's better to use the,

01:06:06   I guess they're trying to use the carrot here

01:06:07   and say you don't get these fancy features on the iPad

01:06:10   at the very least.

01:06:11   On the phone stuff, they seem to have been limiting

01:06:13   themselves to features that can live on A5 class devices,

01:06:17   albeit in sort of abbreviated form.

01:06:20   But I don't know.

01:06:21   - Well, but to go back just a quick step,

01:06:23   they did mention in one of the two presentations

01:06:26   we've seen today that coming soon,

01:06:28   you can target 64-bit devices only,

01:06:30   which is well after the A5, right?

01:06:31   - That's A7 and up.

01:06:32   - Right, so you could--

01:06:34   - Or it's an A6, I forget.

01:06:35   - I don't know, it's something that's not an A5.

01:06:38   - I think it's A7.

01:06:39   - But regardless, so you can choose to target an app

01:06:42   only at 64-bit devices, which is sort of kind of a way

01:06:46   to get around this, oh my god, I really don't wanna

01:06:48   support the A5 problem.

01:06:50   But either way, it was, definitely some great advances

01:06:53   for the iPad, I kinda wish we had a live camera

01:06:56   on Federico while all this was happening.

01:06:57   It was like having a live camera on you

01:06:59   when Swift was announced last year.

01:07:01   - Exactly.

01:07:02   would have been amazing, but no, they're both,

01:07:06   everything sounds really good,

01:07:07   I'm really looking forward to trying.

01:07:08   - Unlike Swift, though, we knew that the splitting

01:07:10   the screen stuff existed in iOS 8,

01:07:12   like we talked about in the last show,

01:07:13   so Federico couldn't have been totally shocked

01:07:15   that it was coming. - True, true, true.

01:07:16   - But it was nice to, it wasn't just the splitting screen,

01:07:19   there was more stuff on top of that

01:07:20   and the keyboard changes, so lots of iPad love this time.

01:07:23   - Yep, speaking of Swift, Swift 2.0 was a thing,

01:07:26   and the most fascinating and interesting thing

01:07:32   to me about Swift 2.0 is that it not only is Swift 2.0 going to be open-sourced later

01:07:38   this year, but A, the reaction to that from the audience was stunningly enthusiastic.

01:07:46   Not that I expected people to be like, "Oh, woo," but people were like really amped up

01:07:51   about it, like surprisingly amped up about it. I don't know, what did you guys think?

01:07:55   >> I think that makes sense because I think as developers, developers in the modern age

01:07:59   know that if you're going to make a language,

01:08:02   that language is always going to suck at some degree

01:08:05   if it's proprietary.

01:08:07   If it's a single company language,

01:08:09   like everyone, developers know, you need to have an ecosystem.

01:08:13   And the best-- for languages especially,

01:08:14   like for APIs, frameworks, whatever, but for languages,

01:08:17   this just kind of accepted that if your language is going

01:08:20   to be worth a damn long term, it needs to not be

01:08:23   your own little private toy.

01:08:24   You need to open it up, and it needs

01:08:26   to be available to everyone.

01:08:27   It needs to not just be an Apple-specific thing.

01:08:30   Having more people using your language benefits the language.

01:08:33   Apple can still steer the ship and be in charge of it

01:08:37   because they write the most code and all the other stuff.

01:08:39   But WebKit is a great example, and that's not even a language.

01:08:42   For programming languages, programmers feel really nervous

01:08:45   about the idea that-- even though Objective C is like,

01:08:47   well, is that open kind of, sort of, but Apple's been advancing

01:08:51   and no one else-- it makes everyone feel better.

01:08:54   In the same way that I think the core OS,

01:08:56   that having Darwin be open source, which people forget about now and it seems not important,

01:08:59   like those are developer comfort factors. The core part of the U.S. is open source was

01:09:07   a big comfort factor when OS X was new, and Swift doing open source now I think makes

01:09:10   people feel a lot better about Swift.

01:09:13   Steve McLaughlin Yeah.

01:09:14   David Lassner So it is important to clarify though what part

01:09:16   is open source.

01:09:17   Steve McLaughlin Well, and that's the other thing I was going

01:09:19   to bring up. It's funny you say that because they said they're open sourcing the language,

01:09:22   but they also said they're open sourcing some of the frameworks.

01:09:25   Well, they said standard library.

01:09:26   What do you mean by standard library?

01:09:27   I'm sorry, you're right.

01:09:28   The things were like int and array.

01:09:31   That's the standard library.

01:09:32   Yeah, like the Swift string and array classes.

01:09:33   There is no Swift without the standard library.

01:09:35   So them saying we're open sourcing Swift

01:09:37   and the standard library, that's just like saying Swift.

01:09:39   Other frameworks?

01:09:40   I mean, some parts of core foundation

01:09:41   already are open source, but that's not Swift.

01:09:44   What else is there to Swift?

01:09:45   Are there any Swift only frameworks?

01:09:47   I don't know at this point.

01:09:49   I don't think so.

01:09:50   Yeah, I didn't think so either.

01:09:51   So all there is is the language and the standard library.

01:09:55   and then calling into a bunch of Objective-C frameworks.

01:09:58   Many of which are closed source and will probably

01:10:00   remain that way.

01:10:01   Right.

01:10:01   So I think it's the same deal with Darwin.

01:10:04   Like the language-- the compiler was already open source.

01:10:06   The language, the standard library,

01:10:08   having the Linux port is basically

01:10:10   saying you want to write a program in Linux?

01:10:13   You want to use Swift to do it?

01:10:14   Go ahead.

01:10:15   Oh, but wait, I can't call into NSURLSession?

01:10:17   Of course you can't.

01:10:18   That's not on Linux.

01:10:20   And if they make a bunch of frameworks only

01:10:24   available to Swift, there will be Apple frameworks that are closed, just like the Apple closed

01:10:27   source frameworks. But Core Foundation is the best example because most of it is closed,

01:10:30   but there is a version of the CF Lite or whatever that's part of Darwin. The same thing with

01:10:35   the rest of OS X. A lot of OS X and the Core OS and everything are open, but then some

01:10:40   parts of it are proprietary like the graphics drivers or whatever that have proprietary

01:10:44   stuff from NV and ATI. So I think this is exactly as open source as everyone was asking

01:10:49   for Swift to be. And that's why everyone applauded. Because Apple has been so clearly saying,

01:10:53   are staking the future of our platform on this language.

01:10:56   And it just makes everyone feel so much better

01:10:58   to have it open.

01:10:59   Yeah.

01:10:59   Now, do you reckon that we are soon

01:11:01   to find Swift taking over for Node or the JavaScript framework

01:11:05   du jour of the minute, and that suddenly everything server-side

01:11:09   is going to be Swiftified?

01:11:11   I mean, that's a lot of things people talk about.

01:11:14   Oh, you know, it could be Apple's Dart.

01:11:16   Their Safari could run Swift native and translate it

01:11:19   to JavaScript.

01:11:20   Any excuse to try to get rid of JavaScript.

01:11:23   why can we use Swift instead?

01:11:24   Or I can use Swift on the client side and the server side.

01:11:27   And the client side would be a browser,

01:11:29   or it would be a native app, and you

01:11:30   could run Swift on the server.

01:11:31   And I could have shared libraries between them.

01:11:33   We're a long way from that.

01:11:34   That's what open sourcing allows to happen.

01:11:37   If it's worth a damn as a server-side language,

01:11:39   some person on Linux will try to use it, and we'll see.

01:11:41   Maybe they'll make libraries for it.

01:11:43   And those libraries-- that's the whole thing this opens up.

01:11:45   If you want to make a library to make server-side web

01:11:48   applications with Swift, you could do that now.

01:11:50   Because you wouldn't be like, well, it's great.

01:11:52   You've just got to use Max as your server.

01:11:53   like that's not going to happen, right?

01:11:54   Now that it is an open language, people

01:11:56   can try anything and everything with Swift.

01:11:58   And the community of programmers will find out

01:12:01   what Swift is good for and what Swift is not good for.

01:12:03   And if a bunch of people made a big library,

01:12:05   like some sort of server-side framework for writing web apps,

01:12:09   and it was awesome, it would live and die on its own merits.

01:12:12   But it is no longer limited by the fact

01:12:14   that Swift is confined to the Apple world.

01:12:16   Yeah, I do think, though, that web programmers who

01:12:19   are hoping to use this as a server-side language-- which I

01:12:21   would love to look into that, honestly. Like, that would give me a lot more reason to learn

01:12:25   Swift if I could use it in both places. But I think people like me are going to be disappointed

01:12:31   if, you know, if we try--if we think that this is going to enable us to make web apps

01:12:35   in Swift, like, you know, this fall or tomorrow or whatever, and we try it and it turns out

01:12:40   that, you know, the lack of all of the frameworks is a bit of a problem.

01:12:44   >> Yeah, because you would use--you would use all the sort of the frameworks for dealing

01:12:48   with URLs and making web requests.

01:12:50   And it's like, oh, well, that's not there.

01:12:52   Well, then what do I get?

01:12:53   Like, what could you share?

01:12:54   If you wanted to say, I want to have a bunch of code

01:12:56   that I share between my web app and my iOS app.

01:13:00   And you think, well, is there any part of your iOS app

01:13:02   that doesn't call any Cocoa APIs that are Apple's?

01:13:05   Probably not, unless you're doing a lot of math

01:13:07   or unless you've implemented your entire data storage layer

01:13:09   yourself.

01:13:10   And not using most of the foundation collection classes

01:13:13   and stuff like that, like all the stuff that either won't be

01:13:15   open source or--

01:13:16   You can use all the arrays and dictionaries and stuff

01:13:20   that are native to Swift and that

01:13:22   are bridged to the other stuff.

01:13:23   But yeah, this is just step two in a long potential road

01:13:28   to Swift being more useful than it currently is.

01:13:31   But this is an essential first step to say, it's open.

01:13:34   Now people can see what the hell it's good for.

01:13:37   And can submit bug fixes and can see the source

01:13:39   to try to debug their own problems.

01:13:41   Because it is a young language, and there

01:13:42   are going to be weird things.

01:13:43   And it's great when you have the source to figure out

01:13:45   what the hell's going on under the covers.

01:13:47   And who knows how many submissions they'll get.

01:13:49   Maybe Google will start using it and then

01:13:51   make their own fork of it and give it a different name.

01:13:54   I don't see that happening.

01:13:55   Yeah, if they did start using it,

01:13:56   they would definitely fork it within a year.

01:13:58   Well, it's like the WebKit example, where it's open,

01:14:00   and then they would kind of work together.

01:14:02   And it was like, you know what?

01:14:03   We can't even work together on this.

01:14:04   So never mind.

01:14:05   I don't see this happening, because the Swift is clearly

01:14:08   Apple's baby.

01:14:08   But yeah, this is more of a feel good moment

01:14:12   and a opening of many doors.

01:14:14   and we don't know how many of those doors

01:14:15   will just lead to blind alleys or bottomless pits.

01:14:18   (laughing)

01:14:19   - It's true.

01:14:20   Now, but anything else on iOS 9

01:14:22   that's worth discussing at this moment?

01:14:24   I don't think there is.

01:14:25   - Well, I think after the break,

01:14:27   we should talk about Notes and News.

01:14:30   - Oh, you're right, you're right.

01:14:31   Yep, sorry, I forgot about that.

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01:18:31   - Excellent, so now Marky, you reminded me,

01:18:32   we should probably talk about news.

01:18:35   - Yeah, so first of all, I honestly,

01:18:37   I'm looking forward to the Notes app.

01:18:39   I think it looks pretty nice.

01:18:41   - That's true.

01:18:42   - I'm not a heavy Notes user.

01:18:45   And part of it is because I've never liked

01:18:48   any of the solutions that can be synced

01:18:51   between Mac and iOS.

01:18:53   And I do so much work on the Mac that,

01:18:55   I would love to use Vesper by our friend John Gruber,

01:18:59   but I've just never gotten into it

01:19:01   because they don't have a Mac version yet.

01:19:04   And what I see from the new Notes app

01:19:07   looks pretty compelling, it looks really interesting

01:19:09   because what they've done with it

01:19:11   is they've made it this complete,

01:19:14   it looks, you know, it's a complete rich text editor.

01:19:16   It's almost like a word processor, but like, you know, modern.

01:19:18   (laughs)

01:19:19   - Right, right.

01:19:20   - And not made for print.

01:19:21   Like it has all these like rich formatting styles

01:19:23   you can apply to things, it supports inline images,

01:19:25   inline media, they had this cool thing

01:19:27   where you can like, you can convert a list of lines

01:19:29   into a checklist and then check them off.

01:19:31   So it has like this embedded checklist functionality.

01:19:33   A lot of these things that we see from apps like,

01:19:37   oh man, what's Jesse Grossjean's app that,

01:19:40   it's like a combination of task paper and something--

01:19:44   - I've got nothing.

01:19:45   - I have to look it up.

01:19:46   We'll put it in the show notes if we can find it.

01:19:47   But there are so many, so much rich functionality

01:19:52   that's in this app that appears to be there

01:19:55   on iOS and on Mac.

01:19:57   And it all syncs.

01:19:59   There were rumors that notes used to be synced via IMAP

01:20:03   with your mail account, which was a terrible idea that never worked.

01:20:05   >> That's the thing I tweeted. Is this still IMAP back then? I think it might be. I think

01:20:09   it still is because on, I think on my wife's computer, she doesn't use Apple's mail stuff

01:20:15   and I think every time I try to enable notes, it's like, oh, you need an email address.

01:20:19   >> Well, but that's the way it is today. And at one point, they flashed up a slide, it

01:20:23   might have been this afternoon, where it was all the bits and pieces of iCloud and Notes

01:20:29   was there and what I'm not sure is like if it's IMAP does that classify as still

01:20:35   being like like the thing the fact that it's IMAP is two bad things one I'm

01:20:39   implementations are weird and flaky and two you have this weird dependency where

01:20:44   you can't use notes in a synced manner unless you have an email account it's

01:20:48   like how are those two things related in any way and you'd have to know well it's

01:20:51   using IMAP as the back end which is gross and has always bothered me but the

01:20:54   reason I use notes is exactly what Marco said because there's a Mac app and an

01:20:58   iOS app and I use it in both places. And so I use Notes. I just read my toaster notes

01:21:04   off of the Notes app. And I really do edit those notes in two places. I start entering

01:21:09   them when I'm on my iPod. I fix them up a little bit when I'm on my computer. The thing

01:21:12   that annoys me about Notes is that they didn't -- I like the fact that it has all these new

01:21:16   features but they didn't demo the one feature I really wanted. And the thing that always

01:21:19   drives me nuts when I'm trying to do any kind of notes in iOS is I find myself looking in

01:21:23   in vain for the tab key on the iOS keyboard because I want an outline view. And they did

01:21:30   show bulleted lists and they showed Rick's text and they showed headings, they did not

01:21:33   show outlines. And I find a lot of the notes I make are outlining. Like in TextEdit it

01:21:40   has, I think this is held over from the next days, if people don't know, and I think I

01:21:43   mentioned this a few times, if you are in TextEdit on the Mac and you hit Option + Tab,

01:21:46   it suddenly goes into this weird pseudo-outlining, indenty, rich text mode thing that I use a

01:21:52   a lot. It's not great. A real outlining app like on the Outliner or something would be

01:21:55   way better. But I want something that's sort of available everywhere, supported by the

01:22:01   system. So there's still stuff for Notes to add in the next version, but I'm happy for

01:22:07   a bunch of additional features. And I'll be super happy if this gets off the IMAP backend

01:22:11   and goes on to the new CloudKit backend for real, like the native, you know, CloudKit

01:22:16   document type stuff instead of IMAP, because that just seems silly to me. And I don't know

01:22:22   maybe it's irrational that I don't trust it as much,

01:22:24   but I just don't.

01:22:25   And I've had many cases in Notes

01:22:27   where Notes suddenly get duplicated

01:22:28   and I have to delete the duplicates

01:22:29   and silly stuff like that,

01:22:30   and I'm hoping it will be better with a proper backend.

01:22:32   - Yeah, and I have to imagine,

01:22:34   like I don't think they would have done

01:22:35   this big enhancement, which, you know,

01:22:37   this might have been a total rewrite,

01:22:39   using like a CloudKit backend.

01:22:41   I don't think they would have done that

01:22:42   if they were still using IMAP,

01:22:44   and if they ever planned to move it off IMAP.

01:22:46   Like they would have waited and done it at the same time.

01:22:48   - I mean, it's just a bag of bytes,

01:22:49   like you could put whatever you want in IMAP.

01:22:50   I get scared in thinking like when you select all the stuff

01:22:53   and it makes it into a bullet list,

01:22:55   they're using sort of a weird bastardized markdown language

01:22:57   behind the scenes that it really just is a big giant text file.

01:22:59   That's all RTF is anyway.

01:23:01   But there's a line between a bunch of weird things

01:23:05   that humans were never supposed to see that make up

01:23:08   this file format and something like markdown,

01:23:10   where it's like we just picked-- it's supposed

01:23:12   to be readable as plain text.

01:23:14   And we just made up our own plain text thing

01:23:16   to mean a check mark that's checked

01:23:18   and a check mark that's not checked out.

01:23:20   I don't know. I'm hoping the backend is better on this one, but nothing they showed me definitively

01:23:26   says it must be. They could pull all this off on top of IMAP with a weird format under

01:23:30   the covers. I just hope they're not.

01:23:32   Yeah, I'm guessing it's like HTML and something like that. Or maybe it is RTF. Who knows?

01:23:37   Yeah, RTF is not a great format either.

01:23:39   Display PostScript. We'll see.

01:23:41   Oh, God.

01:23:42   All right. So I think we got to talk about this news app.

01:23:45   Right. Apple Instant Articles.

01:23:46   Yeah, that's basically -- I mean, it looks like it's a lot like -- or, you know, Apple

01:23:49   - Apple Instant Articles with no visible means of support.

01:23:53   Meaning, I'm pretty sure they did not mention

01:23:56   a single time ads, advertisers, or anything like that.

01:24:00   - Well, so on the page it says you can use iAd.

01:24:03   So I'm not entirely sure of the details.

01:24:05   We haven't had time to look into the details,

01:24:06   but it looks like their solution is basically,

01:24:09   if you want to monetize this, you can use our ad system.

01:24:12   - The one that everyone loves,

01:24:14   and is setting the world on fire.

01:24:15   - We don't know what their solution is,

01:24:17   but we do know how they presented it,

01:24:19   and they presented it entirely as an end user benefit.

01:24:22   We talked about the Facebook Instant articles being

01:24:25   presented as like, here's the end user benefit, instant.

01:24:28   You don't have to wait for stuff to load.

01:24:29   But they also said, here's the publisher benefit.

01:24:32   We'll give you all your ad money.

01:24:33   You'll get lots of demographics.

01:24:34   You've got lots of reach, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:24:36   Lots of social sharing.

01:24:38   They could start here instead of--

01:24:40   they gave two halves of that.

01:24:41   Apple only gave the consumer half.

01:24:43   This is a cool way for you to read news.

01:24:45   Look at this nice app.

01:24:46   Look at these beautiful articles.

01:24:48   Isn't it nice?

01:24:48   A little bit they said, look at these rich layouts.

01:24:51   That could be pitched towards the publishers a little bit.

01:24:53   Hey, this looks like the New York Times.

01:24:55   Don't get nervous, New York Times.

01:24:56   Your stuff will still look like the New York Times.

01:24:59   But it was still, I think, mostly pitched entirely

01:25:01   towards the customer of saying, these publications

01:25:04   look the way you expect them to look.

01:25:05   They still have personality.

01:25:07   You can find them all in one place.

01:25:08   And I'm pretty sure, from memory,

01:25:11   that all the articles they scrolled through

01:25:13   did not have a single ad of them.

01:25:14   And it looks so alien, because we're

01:25:15   so used to scrolling through mobile web pages

01:25:17   a million ads and like in the middle of an article is a gigantic square the size of your

01:25:21   entire screen advertising something and ad block is not as pervasive on iOS let's say

01:25:26   as it is on the desktop. Maybe Chrome has some options for it. I don't think there's

01:25:29   anything you can do in Safari except for maybe like DNS blocking at your router to kill ads

01:25:33   and stuff. It just looks so weird to be reading all these news sites without an ad in sight

01:25:40   and so I'm left to wonder. I like the consumer story, sort of, but what is the publisher

01:25:46   Why would Wired and the New York Times and Rolling Stone

01:25:49   or whoever else they put in there,

01:25:51   why would they want their things to be in news

01:25:54   if you aren't going to their websites

01:25:55   and they can't show you any ads?

01:25:57   And the iEd thing, is that the answer?

01:25:59   Is that you have to use iEd?

01:26:01   Do you get to run your own ads?

01:26:02   I don't know.

01:26:03   As someone snarkily tweeted, I think

01:26:05   it was Brianna snarkily tweeted, worried about how this is going

01:26:10   to affect the application that Apple previously

01:26:13   had in the space, Newsstand, which is really burning up

01:26:15   the charts. Like it's not, you know, newsstand, I'm not going to say newsstand has been a

01:26:21   failure, but it certainly has not been the success that Apple wanted it to be, and here

01:26:25   they are taking another run at the same problem. I'm not sure if they've nailed it on the second

01:26:30   try either.

01:26:31   So, the, I've been looking through the fact, and it is, it is very, it's interesting, and

01:26:37   it's kind of vague on some pretty important points. So, first of all, this is entirely

01:26:41   based on RSS for now. And then they say there's an Apple News format that's coming soon, but

01:26:47   the details of such format are not available yet. And the way this works is it appears

01:26:52   that they will add RSS feeds for a lot of things by themselves and you can opt out of

01:26:58   that, but then you can also sign up with an account to have like a management interface

01:27:04   to submit your own RSS feeds for your own sites. So God knows how that's working out.

01:27:09   And then there's a submission status.

01:27:12   And then there's some things about how can I monetize,

01:27:17   and the answer is you can monetize with iAd.

01:27:20   And it says you can sell ads,

01:27:22   I guess iAd is just then serving the inventory

01:27:27   you've entered, so if you enter ads into iAd

01:27:30   that you have sold, you keep all the revenue,

01:27:32   otherwise if they sell the ad,

01:27:34   if you're showing their inventory that they sold,

01:27:36   you get 70%.

01:27:38   So it's interesting, and there's a section of like,

01:27:42   you know, what's required, and the requirement is basically

01:27:45   it has to be an RSS feed, and then what's recommended,

01:27:48   and that says, you know, no read more links,

01:27:51   no advertising that's outside of iAds, stuff like that.

01:27:53   So this'll be interesting.

01:27:55   I see that, I think the story for publishers

01:28:01   is going to really depend on if anybody actually uses this.

01:28:06   - Yeah.

01:28:07   - Same thing with newsstand.

01:28:08   Like, good idea, but if people just file that thing away

01:28:11   and never look at it, not so good idea anymore.

01:28:13   - Right, like, you know, with Facebook,

01:28:16   the reason why Facebook is able to do something crazy

01:28:18   like Instant Articles is because they just have a ton

01:28:21   of people browsing in Facebook.

01:28:23   They can throw around a ridiculous amount of traffic.

01:28:26   And increasingly, for publications,

01:28:29   they kinda have to be in newsstand,

01:28:31   or I mean, they have to be visible in Facebook somehow,

01:28:33   whether it's through links or Instant Articles.

01:28:35   like they depend on Facebook's traffic to survive

01:28:39   or to stay healthy.

01:28:40   And so, you know, Apple with a brand new app

01:28:44   that, you know, on day one,

01:28:46   certainly a lot of people are gonna use it

01:28:47   just because it's a new Apple app

01:28:48   and it's built into the OS or whatever,

01:28:50   but it's not gonna be the size of a Facebook traffic

01:28:53   for browsing stuff on the web.

01:28:56   I do wonder, you know, is this going to get big enough

01:29:01   to make it worth the publishers participating

01:29:03   and making things really fancy besides just

01:29:06   dumb RSS feed dumps that the publishers eventually realize,

01:29:10   oh crap, we forgot to monetize our feeds,

01:29:13   and then they just stop supporting RSS.

01:29:15   (laughing)

01:29:16   This could go very badly, so it's worth considering.

01:29:20   What is the endgame here?

01:29:22   First of all, this is very much

01:29:25   not an Apple-like thing to attempt.

01:29:28   If you would have said,

01:29:31   two of the big tech companies are going to do this during a three month period, which

01:29:35   two is it going to be? I don't think you would have guessed Apple would be one of them. I

01:29:38   think you'd probably guess Facebook and Google. To have this be Apple is kind of weird.

01:29:44   I think the way they pitched it actually makes sense in terms of what the companies have,

01:29:49   like you just said. Facebook pitched way more towards the publishers because they already

01:29:53   got the users. They don't have to pitch, they did do the "Hey, it's great, you don't have

01:30:00   wait for loading, they don't have to pitch to the customers too much because people are

01:30:03   already using Facebook and Facebook controls what they see. Facebook controls the feed

01:30:08   in a way that they, with power that they have exerted time and again, where at this point

01:30:11   that people just accept that Facebook has a tremendous amount of control of what they

01:30:15   see on Facebook, that they are not entirely in control. So they pitch to the publishers.

01:30:19   Apple is pitching to the users because there are far fewer publishers and if the users

01:30:23   are there, I think Apple feels like they can get the publishers on board, especially they

01:30:27   they could differentiate themselves from Facebook

01:30:29   or whatever in some way, they need to pitch to the users

01:30:32   'cause all this is pointless if, like you said,

01:30:35   if people don't use the news app.

01:30:36   So they're entirely going to the customers

01:30:38   and saying you are the ones that we need that we don't have.

01:30:40   If we can get you on board, it will be easy to explain

01:30:43   to the New York Times and Vogue Magazine or whatever

01:30:45   why you should be in our thing.

01:30:48   Even just if you're gonna say do it as a hedge

01:30:50   against giving all your content to Facebook

01:30:52   and letting them control your destiny.

01:30:54   - And what's interesting too, they are saying

01:30:55   this is the way forward so much that people on Twitter

01:30:58   were just telling me they have actually killed Newsstand.

01:31:00   Newsstand on iOS 9, here we'll say--

01:31:02   - It will not be mourned.

01:31:04   - From Nate Peel, a user named emullet on Twitter,

01:31:07   he says that when he installed iOS 9,

01:31:09   Newsstand was converted into a folder,

01:31:12   which is honestly, that's great.

01:31:14   Like back when I was a Newsstand publisher,

01:31:17   I was saying they should do this.

01:31:19   And yeah, this is great, this is perfect for everybody,

01:31:22   for users who hated it, who never wanted to see it

01:31:24   had to bury it somewhere.

01:31:26   And for the new developers--

01:31:27   - It was worse for the people who used it all the time

01:31:29   because everything was always two levels down.

01:31:31   - Right, and it was worse for the publishers

01:31:32   'cause their app couldn't be on the home screen,

01:31:35   it couldn't be in the dock, it couldn't be,

01:31:36   like it was also buried.

01:31:38   Like it was, it really just didn't work out at all

01:31:40   for anybody for any side.

01:31:42   Even for Apple 'cause then nobody wanted to use it

01:31:44   and yeah, it was just bad all around.

01:31:46   So, and this is also interesting that

01:31:49   it doesn't seem like there's any kind of payment method

01:31:52   built into this.

01:31:53   it's only ad-based, which is probably--

01:31:56   - Like not just subscribing or anything, yeah.

01:31:57   - Yeah, like, I mean, that's probably for the best,

01:32:00   'cause it does seem like on the web

01:32:01   that just works a lot better and is by far

01:32:04   the dominant way to monetize web content.

01:32:06   It is interesting that they are kind of saying,

01:32:09   all right, well, Newsstand is done.

01:32:10   And if you wanna keep having apps

01:32:14   that support payments in the app

01:32:16   and in-app purchase subscriptions,

01:32:17   like those all still exist,

01:32:19   and you can do them in an app separately from this,

01:32:21   but if you wanna be in this news app,

01:32:23   in this ecosystem, it sure looks like your stuff has to be free on the web.

01:32:27   This is also interesting compared to something we forgot to mention.

01:32:31   This is like, "Well, Newsstand didn't work out, let's take a second run at this problem."

01:32:34   Whereas Passbook turning into Apple Wallet is not like, "Passbook didn't work out, let's

01:32:39   take another run at it with Apple Wallet."

01:32:41   Apple Wallet is what Passbook was always supposed to be.

01:32:44   It's the same tech underlying the little HTML things that make the little cards and everything,

01:32:47   but when Passbook was launched, they didn't have a financial component to it.

01:32:51   So it could go two ways.

01:32:52   One is they wanted it to be this Passbook thing and it turns out payments fit right

01:32:57   into that and payments are more important.

01:32:58   The second is they always wanted it to be Apple Wallet but you can't launch a thing

01:33:01   called Wallet with no money inside.

01:33:04   If it just has boarding passes, like the entire Passbook project, everything they did is 100%

01:33:09   used in Apple Wallet.

01:33:11   Like all the tech that they worked on for all the, like how do you make a Passbook,

01:33:14   how does it get in there, what is it made out of, how does it update itself, you know,

01:33:18   all that stuff for all your boarding passes and event tickets and stuff, that's all used

01:33:23   in Apple Wallet. It's just now that we have Apple Pay, now sort of reveals its final form.

01:33:28   It was always Apple Wallet. So Passbook has become the beautiful butterfly of Apple Wallet

01:33:33   and Newsstand is just getting stomped on and there's a new thing with news in the name

01:33:36   that is, as far as I can tell, unrelated to Newsstand in every way. And we'll see if they

01:33:42   got it right that time.

01:33:44   weird to me about news is that I feel like it's solving a problem that nobody

01:33:49   really had because I mean granted they maybe you couldn't have solved this

01:33:54   problem with solely Safari and the things that are baked into iOS but you

01:33:58   know Flipboard is really good and and I don't think that we that the world was

01:34:03   yearning for a Flipboard replacement and yet here it is you're in for a reading

01:34:08   list either well true and so I'm surprised that this is somewhere where

01:34:13   they seem to have put a considerable amount of effort.

01:34:16   And I'll certainly try it once I move to iOS 9,

01:34:20   which by the way, pro tip, if you learn anything from us,

01:34:24   do not put on beta one, just don't.

01:34:25   - Yeah, just skip beta one, just wait a couple weeks

01:34:27   for beta two to come out.

01:34:28   - At the earliest, and if you're wise,

01:34:31   you're gonna wait until like July

01:34:32   before you start doing any of this.

01:34:33   - Generally, like the pro move is

01:34:35   don't install anything before beta three.

01:34:37   Usually by then they've worked out

01:34:38   most of the major problems that would prevent you

01:34:41   from being able to use it on your day-to-day phone.

01:34:44   The wisest move is just never to install the beta,

01:34:46   but if you insist, which most of you will,

01:34:48   yeah, wait 'til beta two or three.

01:34:50   - Unless you're a developer.

01:34:51   Obviously, if you have a spare phone,

01:34:52   put whatever you want on there.

01:34:53   What we're talking about is don't put it on your main phone

01:34:55   because you don't just host your main phone.

01:34:57   - Especially while traveling at WBC.

01:34:59   - Yeah, 'cause didn't you and I both put on five

01:35:01   or whatever it was that had a notification center?

01:35:04   Both of us deeply regretted it immediately.

01:35:06   - John, you will never let me forget that.

01:35:08   - Oh, God, I did the same thing.

01:35:09   I was also an idiot and did the exact same thing. Oh, terrible decision. Absolutely terrible

01:35:13   decision. All right, anything else on iOS or can we talk watchOS?

01:35:16   >> I think it's time to go to the watch.

01:35:18   >> All right. So we are getting third party complications. I am...

01:35:21   >> That makes you very happy.

01:35:22   >> That makes me super happy. I'm really excited about this. I think if developers can keep

01:35:28   themselves in check and actually do this tastefully, I think it can be phenomenal. The problem

01:35:34   is I'm not terribly convinced that we'll be able to do it tastefully.

01:35:37   I noticed they mentioned, like they were talking about,

01:35:38   that we would get the time travel feature,

01:35:40   like that, you know, what if you have something

01:35:41   you don't know when it upsets?

01:35:42   Like the score in a game.

01:35:43   Like it's not like the weather,

01:35:44   where you can update it every hour.

01:35:45   What if the score in the game updates,

01:35:46   you don't know when it's gonna update,

01:35:47   but you wanna know as soon as someone scores a goal,

01:35:49   well you can do a push notification,

01:35:50   a priority push notification from your server

01:35:52   that goes through the phone,

01:35:53   and I immediately thought, video complications.

01:35:56   Push a frame of video, 24 times a second,

01:35:58   push, push, push, push, I gotta look up a thing,

01:36:00   and there'll be a tiny little video in the corner here.

01:36:02   That's the kind of abuse you're talking about,

01:36:04   I think, because they're not being tasteful.

01:36:06   And we've seen that Apple is seemingly either unwilling

01:36:10   or unable or both to police push notification abuse.

01:36:13   Video wouldn't work, obviously.

01:36:15   It was just a joke.

01:36:16   Well, no, but still.

01:36:16   But yeah, people can-- two things here.

01:36:19   One, and we'll get to this with apps in a bit,

01:36:22   you could really hose someone's watch.

01:36:25   Like, I didn't see a lot-- maybe we'll go to the sessions later

01:36:27   and we'll learn what all the crazy limits are.

01:36:29   But so what are you saying?

01:36:30   I can send a push notification whenever

01:36:32   I want to update a complication?

01:36:33   you could keep that poor watch like it's trying to go to sleep it's trying to be

01:36:37   like and you know I'm not doing anything mode and it keeps getting these

01:36:39   notifications like you now have the power I think to basically make a

01:36:44   badly-behaved app that drains someone's watch battery way more than you know

01:36:48   this we're in the glory days of the watch now where everyone says it lasts

01:36:51   all day and there's no problem but now you just let random developers do stuff

01:36:54   especially if you have like apps installed by default is that the default

01:36:58   on the thing like I think it is yeah that's probably a bad default because

01:37:02   you'll install some cruddy game on your iOS device,

01:37:05   play it once, not like it, forget about it,

01:37:07   maybe you didn't delete it, and not know

01:37:09   that it put some watch kit thing--

01:37:11   I guess if you don't make the complication show,

01:37:13   it's not that bad.

01:37:13   But anyway, I'm kind of fearful of the things

01:37:17   that native watch apps and complications can do

01:37:21   that people will be unaware of.

01:37:23   They'll be able to connect up.

01:37:24   Like, I put this complication in because it's neat,

01:37:25   but this complication is actually updating once

01:37:27   every 30 seconds all day.

01:37:30   That'll be no good.

01:37:31   The one thing I'm curious to hear about later in the week is how does it work for the different

01:37:35   sized complications?

01:37:37   You know, the modular face, that's what I'm thinking of, right?

01:37:40   That has no analog anything on it.

01:37:43   Some of those complications are physically, you know, they take up quite a bit of real

01:37:46   estate like the main one in the center of the watch face.

01:37:50   And yet, they also showed, so they showed some of those, and they also showed third

01:37:53   party complications like there was a Volkswagen, like how charged is your Volkswagen?

01:37:58   and it was basically like a little circle,

01:38:01   kind of like the activity rings

01:38:02   that went around the VW logo.

01:38:04   And that's one of those little teeny tiny complications

01:38:06   that's kind of square shaped.

01:38:08   I'm curious to see how that works.

01:38:10   I presume-- - Like size classes.

01:38:13   - Yeah, maybe.

01:38:14   - Don't forget, you also have 38 and 42 millimeter.

01:38:17   - Ah, that's another good point.

01:38:18   I hadn't considered that.

01:38:19   - Yep, and then you have things like,

01:38:20   you're probably, I mean, we haven't listed API yet,

01:38:22   but you're probably given like an accent color

01:38:24   that you have to use and stuff like that.

01:38:27   This is, third party complications are technically probably one of the easiest things they can

01:38:31   do because it is so incredibly constrained.

01:38:34   The number of things you can do there, I don't think you have, you know, like, you know,

01:38:38   core graphics and you just draw whatever the hell you want there.

01:38:41   Maybe you're going to be making up a ping and passing it over.

01:38:44   Maybe you have some simple text that you can do.

01:38:45   Maybe it's just like a mask that you pass and it treats it like a mask.

01:38:47   Yeah, I don't know.

01:38:48   But anyway, it's, it's, it is a huge bang for your buck because it is the thing that

01:38:52   you see when you raise your wrist.

01:38:54   And lots of things you can imagine could be super useful, even if just something as simple

01:38:58   as a sports score.

01:38:59   Having a sports score as a complication on your watch is something that mechanical watches

01:39:03   could never dream of.

01:39:04   This is the real differentiator.

01:39:06   Like yeah, I can see what day of the week it is, I can see the face of the moon, I can

01:39:09   see all this thing.

01:39:10   I can see a live sports score, now we're, you know, forget about physical watches, just

01:39:13   stomping in their faces.

01:39:15   Yep, yep, yep.

01:39:16   And then this brings us to, what is it, time machine, time travel, what do they call it?

01:39:20   Not time machine.

01:39:21   Time travel, I said it was a missed opportunity.

01:39:22   They could have called it time machine.

01:39:23   So time travel, and what that allows you to do is, as you're looking at your watch face,

01:39:29   you can spin the digital crown and you can move forward or back in time to see what your

01:39:34   complications either did or would reflect at that point in time, which I think is absolutely

01:39:40   fascinating and reminds me of the Pebble Time, is that correct?

01:39:45   Which works in a vaguely similar way where the idea behind that is everything you look

01:39:50   at on the main interface is kind of like a timeline. And this isn't exactly the same,

01:39:55   but very similar. And I really dig the idea of, like we were talking about weather earlier,

01:40:00   Jon had brought up weather as a complication, being able to see, well, at five o'clock,

01:40:04   what's the weather going to be like? And at the very least, you can get numerals for the

01:40:07   temperature, or perhaps you can get an icon that'll tell you whether or not it'll be overcast.

01:40:16   So you can spin the crown and kind of see how things are going.

01:40:19   Or you can see, they actually used an example in the second session of, well, how did this

01:40:25   soccer team that I loved, how did they lose?

01:40:27   Do they lose in the last second or do they lose by not scoring in the last 45 minutes?

01:40:31   And you could scroll back on the digital crown and see, oh, well, they had lost in the last

01:40:35   second I think was the example.

01:40:37   So I am absolutely fascinated by this.

01:40:39   I had written a blog post a while ago and I'm not the only one.

01:40:40   I think Marco had done the same.

01:40:43   few people have been saying, you know, third-party complications would be really awesome. And

01:40:46   I think if tastefully done, and that's the key, if tastefully done, I can see how this

01:40:51   would be absolutely awesome to have. And just like Jon had said earlier, you know, when

01:40:55   all you're doing is flicking up your wrist to look at the face of your watch and you

01:40:59   can instantly see some piece of information, be it a sports score or the weather or what

01:41:04   have you, that is absolutely appealing to me and appealing enough that I would even

01:41:10   consider going to the modular watch face, which I freaking hate.

01:41:14   It's not that appealing.

01:41:16   Yeah, to get that amount of information density would be fantastic. And by the way, very quick

01:41:20   aside, they're also supporting a picture as a watch face.

01:41:24   Or an album.

01:41:25   Yes, actually, excellent point. Or an album. Which I think is awesome because not only

01:41:29   would I love to have a picture of Aaron and Declan as my watch face, but we actually have

01:41:33   a shared photo stream that will post pictures of Declan for family and friends to see. And

01:41:39   Having my watch face cycle through those pictures

01:41:41   sounds awesome.

01:41:42   The only problem though, which Marco pointed out to me

01:41:45   as we're sitting in the keynote,

01:41:46   is well, we don't see any complications on that right now,

01:41:49   and there may not be any complications on that.

01:41:51   - It sure looks like there's not going to be.

01:41:53   - I think the complication is where do you put the time

01:41:55   so it's legible in the picture.

01:41:56   And if you have a bunch of complications,

01:41:58   now you could pick a color that looks okay,

01:42:01   but in different sections of the picture

01:42:02   or a different color, it's actually a pretty hard problem

01:42:04   with arbitrary pictures.

01:42:05   If you put a bunch of complications,

01:42:07   it'll just look all splotchy.

01:42:08   - I agree.

01:42:09   they don't even have complications on the ones they control that are like that

01:42:11   we show you a fish and the butterflies and everything and I mean only there's

01:42:14   only there's what six or seven watch faces only three of them support

01:42:17   complications yeah and and that's so on one hand like you know it's interesting

01:42:22   like you know they do a new watch face but doesn't support this though okay I

01:42:25   think there's a lot that they could do to make the watch faces and the

01:42:29   complications better but third-party complications that's a major step in the

01:42:34   right direction like that's a huge jump that I was not expecting to have yet

01:42:37   Oh, I agree. Third party watch faces next year, right?

01:42:40   Maybe. I don't know if they'll ever do third party watch faces.

01:42:43   I think it's time will come.

01:42:45   To me, it's like third party lock screens on the phone.

01:42:48   I don't think that's ever going to happen either.

01:42:49   But this like once you have third party complications, like, well, I get to put

01:42:53   stuff in little places. Why can't you?

01:42:54   Even if the third party watch faces only could choose complications that were of

01:42:58   the preset sizes, which would probably be the case, it would still be even if you

01:43:01   just rearrange modular to put stuff in different places.

01:43:04   Like, not this year, but anyway.

01:43:07   Like, a lot of things are telegraphed.

01:43:08   I think the time travel feature was telegraphed by the fact

01:43:12   that on my watch face-- by the way,

01:43:14   I have an Apple Watch now, in case you were wondering.

01:43:16   [LAUGHTER]

01:43:16   I'm going to slip that in there.

01:43:18   On my watch face, when I turn the digital crown,

01:43:22   nothing happens, right?

01:43:23   Yeah, same here.

01:43:25   How in the world could you have this watch?

01:43:27   Like, it's major UI features.

01:43:28   Like, oh, look at this digital crown.

01:43:30   It's great.

01:43:30   And you just turn it, and nothing happened.

01:43:31   And what do you expect to happen?

01:43:33   I expect, I guess, the hands on the watch to turn.

01:43:35   Ah, but on the Solar Face, something does happen.

01:43:37   What happens?

01:43:38   Basically, time travel.

01:43:39   But there's no complications.

01:43:41   So they could do that there.

01:43:42   You could move the sun on the little Solar Face

01:43:44   and stuff like that.

01:43:45   So time travel was-- how could Apple ship a watch?

01:43:48   Returning the crown does nothing when you're

01:43:50   on their watch face.

01:43:50   Well, they didn't.

01:43:51   It just wasn't ready yet.

01:43:52   It's time travel.

01:43:53   It's cool.

01:43:53   It does exactly what you would expect it to do intuitively

01:43:55   and that it already did on the Solar Face.

01:43:57   So even though they're calling this watch OS 2,

01:44:00   even though there was never a watch OS 1,

01:44:01   because it didn't have a name with those all lowercase watch or whatever this

01:44:05   seems like watch OS 1.0 and what we're all using now is like the beta yeah it

01:44:11   seems like a 1.1 you know like I think we okay we got to solve 1.0 it's fine

01:44:16   but yeah this this feels like 1.1 the you know the first update I mean iOS had

01:44:20   a 1.1 added things like the like the GPS triangulation simulation and then to to

01:44:24   edit apps right yeah 2.0 was apps yeah but so maybe that's why they're thinking

01:44:29   but it is kind of weird to have 2.0 so soon that has seemingly very few user-facing enhancements

01:44:34   besides third-party stuff, which is big, but you know.

01:44:36   Yeah, they were super proud of themselves that like this is only six weeks after the

01:44:40   launch of one, but it's like, you know, things come out when, you know, whenever they're

01:44:45   done so.

01:44:47   And we're getting native applications on the watch now. It seems like they're intending

01:44:53   to push developers to abandon WatchKit as we know it today and move towards native.

01:45:00   Was that the impression that you guys got as well?

01:45:01   >> Well, the way they're doing it is interesting. So I was assuming when we heard that they

01:45:06   were going to be doing native SDK, I was assuming all this time that like the WatchKit API that

01:45:11   we had now, which does like, you know, kind of like the remote control of the interface

01:45:15   on the watch, I was assuming that that was just a temporary thing that was basically

01:45:20   a dead end. And that as soon as we got native apps that we would be writing directly to

01:45:25   like UIKit. And what we have instead is they're taking the watch, they're taking WatchKit

01:45:32   which WatchKit extensions run on the iPhone today.

01:45:35   >> Right, right.

01:45:36   >> They're, they're now just letting you move them so that they run on the watch. But you're

01:45:42   still writing WatchKit and you're still writing WatchKit code, you're still writing WatchKit

01:45:46   UI and you still have many of the watch kit limitations, but now they've added a bunch

01:45:52   of new things you can now call from watch kit and because it is running on the watch

01:45:57   instead of on the phone it becomes more useful in a lot of ways and of course better in a

01:46:00   lot of ways.

01:46:01   >> Those are faceless things, right?

01:46:02   >> Yes.

01:46:03   >> Like you have lots of APIs that you can get at that do things but not UI, not UIKit.

01:46:08   Not like, "Oh, I'm just going to make this new layout and have this controller and push

01:46:10   these things under it."

01:46:11   No, that's not there, but if you want to use all sorts of networking stuff because now

01:46:15   You could do Wi-Fi directly from the watch or audio or video processing and stuff like

01:46:19   that.

01:46:20   You could do that, but it seems like the viewport through which you see the customer sees you

01:46:25   and you interact is still WatchKitty.

01:46:27   >> Yeah, and I haven't looked at the APIs yet to know for sure, but it sure looks like,

01:46:32   you know, we're not using UI views and UI buttons here.

01:46:36   We don't seem to have total freeform layout control.

01:46:39   I think we're still using the WatchKit layout methods, which are more limited than UIKit.

01:46:45   And we don't seem to have any kind of access

01:46:48   to things like animation of the UI elements,

01:46:50   which seems like a pretty big thing.

01:46:52   - Well, you get that when you write a full-on native app.

01:46:55   They mentioned that you-- - Do you?

01:46:56   - Yeah, I could swear. - Maybe.

01:46:58   - Now I'm losing my confidence, but I could swear.

01:47:00   I could swear they mentioned that you can do some animations

01:47:03   on the watch in native watch apps.

01:47:05   - All right, so I'll have to look at it to see.

01:47:08   - We'll go to the sessions, I bet they'll tell us.

01:47:10   - Yeah, probably. (laughs)

01:47:12   Well, yeah, those of us with tickets, John, ding.

01:47:14   (laughing)

01:47:16   So anyway, yeah, so I think it is in some ways

01:47:21   simpler and more logical than I was predicting

01:47:25   'cause I was thinking throw out watch,

01:47:27   get started over again.

01:47:28   But it also, and that's a plus and a minus.

01:47:31   Because they basically just moved watch

01:47:33   onto the watch and expanded it,

01:47:35   we can use our existing knowledge,

01:47:37   we can use a lot of our existing code.

01:47:39   And so it is less of a jump and we don't have

01:47:41   to throw away everything we wrote

01:47:42   a few months ago necessarily.

01:47:44   but also it is gonna be more limited.

01:47:47   And like a lot of the frameworks are more limited.

01:47:49   Like I already know I can't do my audio engine.

01:47:52   I can't do smart speed on the watch.

01:47:53   I can't do voice boost.

01:47:56   Like there is audio playback,

01:47:58   but you have to use their custom new player thing,

01:48:01   which is very limited.

01:48:02   And there's gonna be these limits all over the OS

01:48:08   as you look at it.

01:48:08   - Weren't you talking about like pre-rendering

01:48:10   the smart speed though?

01:48:11   - Yeah, it's something I could do.

01:48:12   we'll see if that ends up being good enough to actually do.

01:48:15   'Cause, you know, another big thing

01:48:18   that they have some sessions on,

01:48:20   I haven't looked at documentation yet,

01:48:21   but there of course is the issue of communicating

01:48:25   between the extension, between the watch app

01:48:28   and the iPhone app, and data sharing,

01:48:30   and what happens when the phone goes away,

01:48:33   what data do you have.

01:48:34   It can read from the shared container, which is nice,

01:48:37   but then when it goes away,

01:48:39   does all the operations just fail?

01:48:41   Like is there some better way to do that?

01:48:42   - And if they don't, you're split-brain then

01:48:45   and you gotta reconcile.

01:48:46   You're writing your own little sync engine

01:48:47   between two things.

01:48:48   - Exactly.

01:48:49   - Not because your server and your client.

01:48:50   - So it sounds really hard.

01:48:52   So I'll see what they have in store for this,

01:48:54   but I'm still not yet convinced that I should even do

01:48:58   a native Overcast app that can play things on its own

01:49:00   without the phone there.

01:49:02   I would not call that a guarantee that that's even worth

01:49:05   doing.

01:49:06   - Aren't you gonna at least do it just to get the better

01:49:07   launch time and responsiveness?

01:49:09   - Yeah, I'm certainly gonna play with that and see.

01:49:11   That for sure, I'm most likely going to do that.

01:49:13   - Like no new functionality,

01:49:15   all the data comes from the same places,

01:49:17   but fewer spinners.

01:49:18   - Hopefully, yeah.

01:49:19   So yeah, I'm certainly gonna try it,

01:49:21   but I don't, you know--

01:49:23   - You're not already done?

01:49:24   David Smith would be having it done by now.

01:49:25   - Yeah, he probably is done.

01:49:27   - He probably did write it already.

01:49:28   (laughing)

01:49:30   - Yeah, but overall it's great,

01:49:31   and besides Overcast, there's a lot of other apps

01:49:34   that can benefit hugely from this.

01:49:36   So I'm looking forward to this.

01:49:37   Again, I've said before,

01:49:39   I don't consider the watch like a huge app platform.

01:49:42   I consider it a platform that everybody uses

01:49:46   a relatively small number of apps,

01:49:48   but that that is incredibly useful to them.

01:49:50   And I think it'll stay that way.

01:49:52   Just the apps that you can use will just get better now.

01:49:54   And more kinds of apps will be possible now than were before.

01:49:58   But I still don't really see the watch as like,

01:50:00   I'm gonna leave my phone in my pocket

01:50:02   while I'm sitting on the couch and just like,

01:50:04   be poking around on the watch for 15 minutes.

01:50:05   Like, I don't think that's going to happen.

01:50:07   - No, I agree.

01:50:08   - All right, so what else with the watchOS 2?

01:50:11   I don't think there's anything that I'm aware of.

01:50:14   - There were like some Siri improvements,

01:50:15   but yeah, for the most part, it's about the,

01:50:18   you know, it's all about the apps,

01:50:19   and I think that's enough personally.

01:50:21   - Yeah.

01:50:22   Then we got to the second presentation, which--

01:50:25   - So, thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

01:50:27   Cards Against Humanity, Automatic, and Squarespace,

01:50:30   and we will see you next week.

01:50:32   (upbeat music)

01:50:35   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:50:37   They didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental.

01:50:41   (Accidental)

01:50:42   Oh, it was accidental.

01:50:44   (Accidental)

01:50:45   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, 'cause it was accidental.

01:50:51   (Accidental)

01:50:52   Oh, it was accidental.

01:50:54   (Accidental)

01:50:55   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:51:00   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:51:09   So that's Casey, Liz, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:51:14   Auntie Marco, Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse

01:51:21   It's accidental (it's accidental)

01:51:24   They didn't mean to (it's accidental)

01:51:28   ♪ I've been at your tech podcast so long ♪

01:51:33   - Yeah, so that Apple Music presentation.

01:51:39   - Well, there's the one thing developers care about,

01:51:41   it's music.

01:51:42   - Honestly, let's just pretend that didn't happen,

01:51:46   and let's just pretend that it ended

01:51:48   right before the One More Thing,

01:51:49   because it was a much better conference that way.

01:51:52   - I don't mind so much the music things.

01:51:54   what I mind a lot is that they devalued one more thing

01:51:59   by making the watch one more thing felt appropriate.

01:52:02   - Yep. - Yep.

01:52:03   It felt totally appropriate or whatever.

01:52:05   This was not one more thing.

01:52:07   And it's fine.

01:52:08   They can take ownership of that phrase

01:52:11   and make it mean something else and sort of devalue it.

01:52:14   That's, go for it, whatever.

01:52:15   We'll get used to it after a few things

01:52:17   where it's like, oh, remember one more thing

01:52:18   was a big deal, but now it's not anymore.

01:52:20   That's fine.

01:52:21   - Well, wait, wasn't one more thing

01:52:22   one time safari for windows? Steve Jobs could make one more thing anything you

01:52:26   want. In the Steve Jobs era one more thing was always like he felt like he had to

01:52:31   have something cool and either he had to fake it and pretend he was really

01:52:34   enthusiastic about this or he really was enthusiastic about it but nobody else

01:52:37   was but either way it was his thing he could pull it off. Once he's gone it

01:52:41   becomes like oh that was his thing if you do it now you're invoking him it's

01:52:45   not appropriate to do they didn't do it for a long time they did it for the

01:52:48   watch which is like the most significant announcement of Tim Cook's tenure as

01:52:52   Apple CEO. It felt significant. It felt like the right time to do it. Now they're just

01:52:56   going to switch it back to like every presentation we feel like we want to have this gag at the

01:53:01   end with the one more thing. I don't know. Anyway, but yeah, then what followed was a

01:53:05   really long kind of railing presentation that was not relevant to developers. I think even

01:53:09   when they do hardware, that's more relevant to developers because developers buy hardware,

01:53:13   right? How in the world is music relevant?

01:53:15   Well, I mean, you can argue that, "Oh, well, developers listen to music. That's great."

01:53:18   But to me, this, see everything they announced with music today seemed like it's a lot more

01:53:23   for the music publishers than it is for us.

01:53:27   Like we get, okay, a snazzy new looking music app.

01:53:30   Honestly, I didn't find the music app that compelling, but I listen to terrible music.

01:53:33   - Well, it was trying to pitch us like this is a streaming service that is, I think they

01:53:36   said try to pitch it, but it was like this is differentiated from the other streaming

01:53:39   services that we involve humans in the process.

01:53:42   And that the same reasons you like beats in their playlist because we have people with

01:53:46   taste who are gonna do stuff.

01:53:47   not just a bunch of algorithms, which is funny,

01:53:49   coming from the company, they made Genius,

01:53:50   which is a bunch of algorithms.

01:53:52   (laughing)

01:53:53   Right, but that's their whole big pitch,

01:53:55   is like, this is a streaming service,

01:53:57   but with a difference, and the difference,

01:53:59   you know, in some respects, they were pitching

01:54:01   to the publishers like, oh, one place

01:54:02   where you can go to put all your stuff,

01:54:04   but that's kind of BS, 'cause you know,

01:54:05   like, the publishers are gonna put their music

01:54:07   where the customers are, and they have to have

01:54:09   their music on Spotify, 'cause it's so popular,

01:54:11   and they have to have it on Apple,

01:54:12   it's because of iTunes, and they're just gonna

01:54:14   spread it around, it's not like,

01:54:15   the labels are gonna be like, oh, I gotta do this thing

01:54:17   for connected and you got to put pictures here but you also have to have a YouTube channel

01:54:20   but you also got to have a Facebook page but you also like this is not clarify or simplify

01:54:25   anything from their from their perspective so I think it was mostly just like hey me

01:54:29   too we have one of these and customers you'll like it because we hired a bunch of people

01:54:32   who you respect who are going to use their musical taste to give you something and they

01:54:36   leaned on the no ad thing like they didn't get down to the nitty-gritty details explain

01:54:40   like how do the things that play on terrestrial radio get chosen for it to be on terrestrial

01:54:44   radio and it has almost nothing to do with what some person likes. It has everything

01:54:48   to do with what record companies want to promote and the format of the station, you have to

01:54:53   play one of these and one of those and five of these and we got paid to play these. Where

01:54:58   they were really emphasizing on this one, this is the music that a bunch of people we

01:55:02   hired think is good music, which is very different from terrestrial radio and different from

01:55:10   Spotify, because Spotify is not really like a radio station.

01:55:13   I don't know.

01:55:14   They're trying to say we are better than the other ways

01:55:16   that you listen to music in these ways that

01:55:18   are important to us.

01:55:18   But I was just too busy being annoyed by the fact

01:55:21   that this is supposed to be a developer conference.

01:55:23   And maybe I shouldn't be.

01:55:24   Maybe it's silly, you know, whatever,

01:55:26   that I should care about this.

01:55:28   Maybe it's just because it was like a flabby presentation

01:55:30   and it was long and boring and rambling.

01:55:31   See, that's what I was going to say,

01:55:32   is that I can get over the fact that they're

01:55:34   using one of the couple of times that they're

01:55:37   in front of the world during the year

01:55:39   to announce something that's somewhat irrelevant to developers. However, I just thought that

01:55:43   entire 40 minutes or whatever it was, was just hugely boring. And I was just--I wasn't

01:55:52   impressed by it at all. And I think part of the reason I wasn't impressed by it is everything

01:55:56   else in the keynote, and even in the regular presentations that the public doesn't get

01:56:00   to see throughout WVDC, they're all so well rehearsed, they're so well orchestrated, they're

01:56:05   they're all so solid.

01:56:07   And this was just like a train wreck to me by comparison.

01:56:11   And I don't know, I just, I didn't care for it.

01:56:14   I wasn't really sold on Apple Music.

01:56:16   I remain not really sold on Apple Music.

01:56:18   What is it that you guys are doing better than everyone else?

01:56:22   The only thing I got was the curation.

01:56:24   But I don't really care.

01:56:26   - Well, to be fair, that is what a lot of people like

01:56:28   about beats, and this is kind of,

01:56:30   this is basically Beats Music 2.0 or whatever.

01:56:33   our friends on Connected will probably talk about this

01:56:35   better than we can, because they actually use these things

01:56:37   more than we do, but people do like

01:56:40   the human curation aspect.

01:56:42   I'm interested in that aspect.

01:56:44   I wasn't really sure though, from what we saw today,

01:56:47   like it didn't sell me on it.

01:56:49   - That's what I'm trying to say.

01:56:50   - And part of it was 'cause I was tired

01:56:51   and zoning out after a long morning.

01:56:53   - Mixed in with all the other stuff

01:56:54   that we're talking about.

01:56:56   If I had to pull out the points that are important to me

01:56:59   as someone who doesn't use these streaming services,

01:57:03   is music being rationalized for families

01:57:09   and that you pay once for an entire family

01:57:12   and they all get access to the music,

01:57:14   being rationalized into a single app called music,

01:57:16   and the fact that the app is available on Android, which

01:57:18   clearly expresses Apple's intent to compete with Spotify

01:57:21   and stuff, not to make this is the way the people who

01:57:24   own Apple devices listen to music,

01:57:26   but to try to be like iTunes was before it,

01:57:28   this is the way people buy music.

01:57:30   Not just Mac users buy music in the old days

01:57:33   went before iOS. Not just Mac users, not just iOS users, there's iTunes for Windows. Everybody

01:57:37   should buy music through iTunes. And that's sort of the iTunes error of buying songs for

01:57:41   99 cents seems to be moving on and we're in the new streaming age and it's important for

01:57:46   Apple to stake its claim. Notice not by making a Windows version of Apple Music but by making

01:57:52   an Android version. We were in the mobile error and so, you know, those two things.

01:57:57   One, taking iTunes and music out of the ghetto. I don't know if it's like, is this replacing

01:58:02   iTunes match? Does it also put your stuff in the cloud or is this entirely separate?

01:58:05   Either way, this is priced the way we expect things to be priced and structured the way

01:58:08   we expect them to be structured. And two, saying this is not just an Apple thing, this

01:58:13   is a everything thing. They are trying, I don't know if it's going to work, but they

01:58:16   are trying to relive their former glory. At one time iTunes defined digital music, now

01:58:23   it no longer does. They're trying to get that back with Apple Music.

01:58:26   Yeah, I pretty much think that perfectly encapsulates everything I had to say about Apple Music.

01:58:31   So we gotta talk about two important things during this after show.

01:58:34   Number one, what watch did you get, Jon?

01:58:36   I got the same one as Marco.

01:58:38   I remember me hemming and hawing like, "Oh, I don't know if no one's gonna use this thing.

01:58:42   I don't like wearing watches."

01:58:43   My main problem was I just did not like how the Sport 1 looks, and the other one was just

01:58:46   so darn expensive.

01:58:47   And in the end, I said, "Look, I like the more expensive one.

01:58:52   I got the expensive one.

01:58:53   I got the stainless steel one for two reasons.

01:58:55   One, I like how it looks way better than the other one.

01:58:58   And two, I wanted the Sapphire scratch resistance because I'm not going to be doing sport things

01:59:03   with it, so impact resistance was less important, but I've already scraped it against things

01:59:07   and gone, "Ooh!" and then realized, "Oh, it's probably okay because, you know, you look

01:59:11   up the hardness scale of the thing I scraped it against."

01:59:13   So no scratches so far.

01:59:14   I got a black classic buckle band because it just looks like a regular watch band.

01:59:19   I am not used to wearing watches.

01:59:20   The first day I wore it, it itched me like crazy because it was wiggling my arm hairs

01:59:23   around.

01:59:24   This week, this is my first week with the watch.

01:59:26   It arrived just before I came to the WBC.

01:59:28   I'm gonna wear it this whole week, I'm just gonna do it, I'm gonna wear it all day.

01:59:31   I'm already getting used to it.

01:59:32   It's a little bit heavy, sometimes it catches on things, but it's kinda neat and it looks

01:59:36   cool.

01:59:37   Nice.

01:59:38   So, so far...

01:59:39   The John Siracusa review.

01:59:40   Yeah, so far it's approved.

01:59:41   Yeah, the big test is after WWC week, after I leave the place where thousands of other

01:59:46   people also have Apple Watches, do I keep wearing it?

01:59:48   Do I put it on when I go to work?

01:59:50   Am I going to get into the Marco Green Ring cycle?

01:59:54   I don't know.

01:59:55   I'm not.

01:59:56   I have not.

01:59:57   You don't really have any weight to lose.

01:59:58   It's not even that.

01:59:59   That's very true.

02:00:00   I think I already have a significant amount of antibodies for these gamification of fitness

02:00:06   things that I've, you know, I'm pretty immune to being guilted into doing things by my watch,

02:00:12   but I'm going to give it a try.

02:00:15   You know, Casey's tapping me now.

02:00:18   We all got tapped to stand up during recording this podcast.

02:00:20   None of us stood up.

02:00:21   Nope.

02:00:22   I thought about it.

02:00:23   I really thought about it.

02:00:24   There was no stand up gag in the keynote.

02:00:25   - It was a little surprising actually.

02:00:26   - Yeah, I thought there would be.

02:00:27   - Yeah, it was a perfect opportunity.

02:00:29   Even if they just wanted to pretend it was an ad lib

02:00:30   and not time the entire keynote route,

02:00:31   they didn't do it at all.

02:00:32   - And there were two opportunities.

02:00:34   - Yeah, there's two. - Yeah, that's true.

02:00:34   - There were almost three.

02:00:35   - It was a two-stand keynote.

02:00:37   - That's the new measure.

02:00:39   The other thing we need to discuss

02:00:40   that's really, really important is

02:00:41   how in the name of all that is holy

02:00:43   do you have a tri-fold wallet?

02:00:44   What is wrong with you, man?

02:00:45   - I've always had a tri-fold wallet.

02:00:46   - This is a George Costanza wallet.

02:00:47   - It is pretty big.

02:00:48   Well, here's the thing about it.

02:00:50   It's not a George Sanders vlog because I would never put this in my back pocket when it's

02:00:52   sitting down. That's crazy. You just destroy yourself.

02:00:56   Two, it's thick because it does have a lot of money in it and a lot of cards. Like, I

02:01:00   would like to get rid of a lot of these cards. And it also has some stupid business cards

02:01:04   floating in there.

02:01:05   Oh, wait. Can we get a side view of this thing?

02:01:07   It's not as thick as you would think.

02:01:09   That's pretty thick.

02:01:10   Hold it up so I can take a picture of this.

02:01:12   If I take all the money out of it...

02:01:13   No, don't take the money out. That's cheating.

02:01:14   There's too much money in it.

02:01:15   How many iPhones thick is it?

02:01:17   Yeah, seriously. That's thick.

02:01:18   Let's measure it. Let's measure it.

02:01:19   measure. This is what my wall looks like most of the time with no money in

02:01:21   okay, your back with no money in it. I would say it's roughly four iPhones

02:01:24   thick. I think that's fair to say

02:01:26   three with cases yeah, four with cases it's tapered to it's thinner at the

02:01:31   end. It's like it's like the air yeah in the middle of the thickest part, which

02:01:34   is the widest part as well. Yeah, the bulk of it's the bulk of its width. It

02:01:39   is at least three, if not four iPhones thick. I like tri-folds better than

02:01:44   then by folds. I guess you would call them. I just I just like the way the

02:01:47   trifold goes together, but this is thicker than I would like it. I would like to get

02:01:52   rid of a lot of these cards if they accepted Apple Pay everywhere, I'd get rid of more

02:01:55   of them. So the problem is you're carrying around like eight layers of leather there

02:01:58   when it's folded up. Yeah, I know. Yeah, the whole trifold thing, like it's appealing for

02:02:04   second because you know, can fold it on top of itself and it seems to take up a lot less

02:02:08   space than a single fold or bi-fold I guess wallet, but it is insane! Every trifold wallet

02:02:14   I've ever seen or had in my completely barbaric days of my youth, they were all like three

02:02:21   feet thick. And this one is three feet thick.

02:02:24   This wallet may be older than you, Casey. It's a very old wallet.

02:02:27   Well it's time for you to upgrade.

02:02:28   You know why? Because you can't keep it in your pocket so it doesn't wear, it doesn't

02:02:31   wear at all.

02:02:32   That's true. It's actually wearing a little bit finally. I don't know.

02:02:35   So what kind of wallet do I have, Jon? Do you know?

02:02:37   I have no idea.

02:02:38   Because you've never seen it. Because it's in my pocket. I don't have to take it out

02:02:41   of my pocket when I sit down.

02:02:42   Amen, brother.

02:02:43   The only reason I brought this with me is because my hotel keycard thing is in it.

02:02:47   That's why I have it with me at all.

02:02:49   I bring this with me to and from work every day, but it's not in my pockets ever.

02:02:52   It's in my backpack.

02:02:53   So you're one of those lunatics that every time you sit down, it's like strip everything

02:02:57   out of my pockets?

02:02:58   No, it's in my backpack.

02:02:59   My wallet is in my backpack.

02:03:00   I don't put it in my pocket.

02:03:01   What?

02:03:02   That's where my wallet is.

02:03:03   That's insane.

02:03:04   That's weird.

02:03:05   The whole time we were at WWC, it was in my backpack.

02:03:07   That's insane to me.

02:03:08   Because if you lose your backpack, you lose your wallet.

02:03:10   It's on my back.

02:03:11   You can't get on the plane.

02:03:12   I was like, "Where's it going?"

02:03:13   when you're in the sessions and then you're not gonna get on the darn plane

02:03:15   to go home to your family because you lost your license. I'm not gonna lose my backpack anyway.

02:03:19   It's not, you know, I have more problems finding a place to put my phone because my phone I can't

02:03:23   really keep it in my front pocket when I sit down because I have trouble getting it out because it's so damn big.

02:03:27   Is it too thin? No, it's so, I'm afraid I'm gonna bend it.

02:03:31   Maybe it's already bent. I don't even want to look. Oh god. You're seriously turning away with

02:03:39   revulsion at the thought of it. I don't know if it's bent but now I can't look away.

02:03:43   Is it bent? I don't know. Just throw it to me. I'll set it on its table.

02:03:47   We're not gonna know. It's like dead pixels. So in summary, I have actually, I've switched

02:03:52   from a single fold wallet to this, what is this, a Yubi wallet? It was a

02:03:57   Kickstarter and to be honest it's a year or two old and I kind of need to get a

02:04:00   new one because some of the elastic is falling down. But this is thicker. God,

02:04:04   God, Marco, that's ridiculously thin.

02:04:06   What do you have in there?

02:04:08   Nothing?

02:04:10   - Three credit cards, driver's license,

02:04:12   a metro card for the New York City subway,

02:04:14   which I hardly ever use,

02:04:15   and about six bills folded in half.

02:04:18   - You have zero business cards in there, though.

02:04:20   - That's true.

02:04:21   - How will you know the phone number

02:04:22   of the person who cuts your hair?

02:04:24   - What?

02:04:25   - I've never called the person.

02:04:26   - Are you being serious right now?

02:04:27   - I have my hair.

02:04:28   I have the business card of the person who cuts--

02:04:29   - You have an information phone

02:04:30   that can store these things.

02:04:32   - I always use the business card.

02:04:33   - I got a business card for a restaurant

02:04:34   that's no longer open.

02:04:36   - Give me that business card right now

02:04:37   and throwing it away.

02:04:38   Give it to me right now.

02:04:40   Take it out.

02:04:40   - This was a good place.

02:04:41   - John has thrown me the business card.

02:04:43   - I tried to.

02:04:44   - It's on the floor.

02:04:45   That's amazing.

02:04:46   So that's what you're keeping in there?

02:04:49   - I don't keep receipts.

02:04:50   That's usually the problem.

02:04:50   People keep receipts.

02:04:51   I have a bunch of business cards and things.

02:04:53   I have my hair cutting place.

02:04:54   I have my insurance agent.

02:04:57   - Why do you have your insurance agent

02:04:59   on freaking the wallet equivalent of speed dial?

02:05:01   I have my parking ticket for the airport.

02:05:05   I have the Chestnut Hill Apple Store thing in here.

02:05:09   Let's see.

02:05:09   - Oh my God.

02:05:10   - I have my AAA card.

02:05:11   - Why? Why?

02:05:12   - I got credit cards.

02:05:13   - What year is this?

02:05:14   - My driver's license.

02:05:15   My health insurance card.

02:05:17   - Oh God, this is ridiculous.

02:05:20   - Anyway, yeah, it could be thinner.

02:05:22   The real problem is the amount of money that I have in here

02:05:25   is making it thick.

02:05:26   And so it is sensitive to small changes like that.

02:05:28   - That's one of the problems.

02:05:29   - Humblebrag, by the way.

02:05:31   They're small bills.

02:05:32   (laughing)