0:00:00I'm back playtime is over. Yeah
0:00:02Are we gonna get past follow-up tonight, sir? Well, I don't I have to talk to you about your drink before we start
0:00:08This is the preflight we were doing off the air
0:00:10Marco wanted to know what your what your liquid situation was surrounding your computer
0:00:15And I remember hearing maybe maybe on the podcast that wasn't on you talking about your stupid cup thing that weevils wobble
0:00:21But they don't fall down
0:00:22Technology is employed in yep
0:00:24And I think you're kind of missing the point the point is not to get a cup
0:00:28If you if you knock it over on top of your computer
0:00:31Will hopefully through the design of the cup not have any liquid fallout or some magical cup that is impossible to knock over that you
0:00:38Could hit it with the oncoming freight train and this couple not tip over
0:00:42all of those things are
0:00:45Fixing the problem in the wrong way
0:00:46You gotta you have to accept the fact that the cup will tip over and spill water out
0:00:51Even if you think you come a won't tip over a B won't spill liquid just accept that both of those things
0:00:55It's it's like servers. You know servers will fail hardware will fail
0:00:59Just accept it and then build a system where when your cup falls over starts dripping liquid
0:01:05Explodes whatever the liquid. What was that?
0:01:09That was not the cup don't worry
0:01:11I'll show you in a second all right that the liquid that does come out
0:01:15Will fall down with gravity away from your computer, which is up higher than it, so this is the system
0:01:20I implore you to get going on so I'm going to
0:01:24I'm going to tweet at you too because I don't want to make a public public public tweet
0:01:30A picture of my setup at mom and dad's and let me show you
0:01:34It's something that will bake you even more excited over my setup
0:01:39We hear mom and dad so give me just a moment
0:01:42So is that what you mean John put it up above the computer so it spills directly onto the computer, that's the idea
0:01:52That's kind of the worst setup I've ever seen I think.
0:01:55(laughing)
0:01:56- I like the fact that you have to reach across
0:01:58both your microphone and the computer to get to the cup.
0:01:59(laughing)
0:02:02- No, I put that there just temporarily.
0:02:03- Why don't you maybe tie the microphone cable
0:02:05around the base of the cup?
0:02:07(laughing)
0:02:08- Oh goodness, no I did that just temporarily just for you.
0:02:12- Anyway, my point is don't put your faith in weird cups.
0:02:15(electronic beeping)
0:02:17- By the way, I love that we kicked John out of the show
0:02:20for one episode, and he goes and forms two new podcasts.
0:02:23- Yeah, seriously, apparently it takes--
0:02:25- What do you mean two new podcasts?
0:02:26I didn't form two new podcasts, what are you talking about?
0:02:27- Robot or not?
0:02:28- Oh, that wasn't when I was, whatever.
0:02:31The timelines are all messed up.
0:02:32All these things happened way before last episode.
0:02:36- All I'm saying is, apparently it takes two podcasts,
0:02:40one with Merlin Mann and one with Jason Snell,
0:02:42to equal the awesomeness that is ATP.
0:02:45- Reconcilable Difference is the other one.
0:02:46That's the one that launched today on Relay,
0:02:48which is awesome.
0:02:48which actually all snark aside is unbelievably good.
0:02:52I am stunned at how unbelievably,
0:02:55well, I'm not really that surprised actually at all,
0:02:56but it is really, really, really good.
0:02:59And I absolutely love the first episode.
0:03:01- Yeah, me too.
0:03:02Both of them are interesting and exciting
0:03:04and are using innovative scheduling technologies
0:03:08to fit themselves into my schedule.
0:03:10- Yeah, I am genuinely surprised that you signed up
0:03:13for doing even one new podcast regularly, let alone two.
0:03:18though my understanding is you've kind of cheated the system with robot or not a little bit.
0:03:22Well, no all of this like ATB is the standard one every week we show up we record it goes out
0:03:26You know that's what people expect, but the other ones are done in creative ways to fit into all of our schedules
0:03:33We're all busy people, but we want to do new interesting things and they're not podcasts about tech
0:03:39So it gives me an outlet aside from the incomparable which I continue to do to talk about non tech stuff
0:03:46Excellent all right, so
0:03:48We should probably do a little bit of follow-up, and I might have skipped over a little bit that you might want to talk about John
0:03:55Feel free to take it away. Well now. It's probably it's probably too late right. We don't have to talk about it
0:04:00No, it is not too late
0:04:02Last time and you guys were so busy like patting yourselves in the back
0:04:06But look at the timestamp when you end a follow-up
0:04:10It was the same amount of times usually you just spent a lot of time
0:04:13Complaining about follow-up and not doing follow-up until you said okay now finally follow-up is over. It's not like you save time
0:04:18Anyway, all I wanted to do for the for all the various step tracker GPS phone
0:04:24accuracy watch accuracy things was to note the we'll put in this a
0:04:29linked Apple's
0:04:31support article about this and note the interesting bit about
0:04:35tracking your distance
0:04:37when running with both a watch and a phone is
0:04:40that
0:04:42The reason it might be off is because it the devices apparently and hinted at by this Apple document are trying to save energy by
0:04:50Not using the GPS all the time by trying to use the step tracker by trying to calibrate the step tracker either in the phone
0:04:56Or in the watch or both and just use the accelerometer to count your steps rather than having the GPS going the whole time tracing
0:05:01Your route because a lot of people are asking how can if you if you go with the watch and the phone
0:05:06How can it be any worse or different in any way than a Garmin GPS watch?
0:05:10wouldn't it be exactly the same as in GPS GPS what is the big difference here and the difference appears to be from
0:05:15This knowledge base article and people's experience that the Apple devices are trying to cheat to save battery and say well once we get calibrated
0:05:24Stepping for the accelerometer everything we'll use that most of the time and maybe check in on GPS periodically
0:05:29Which is another interesting trade-off and I think something that Apple will probably
0:05:33adjust with time as they get more battery strength and maybe if they want to be taken more seriously in the sort of
0:05:39hardcore sports fitness market those type of people like look just use my battery the whole point of bringing you with me is because I
0:05:45want an exact route of where I ran
0:05:47All right, well that was it after there's like two pages of this in the show notes
0:05:52I know, but it's kind of old now. We had a bunch of people write in about it with links
0:05:56we'll put them in the in the show notes. There's a couple of people tweeted about the
0:06:00People's upcoming reviews like sort of hardcore fitness device reviewers
0:06:07review of the Apple watch on the iPhone
0:06:09They're not done yet. Apparently these people who do these reviews, but when they do come out
0:06:14Maybe it will finally pin down these devices say just how accurate are they? What are their characteristics?
0:06:18because all we've got now is a bunch of people saying I
0:06:20Did some exercise with some collection of Apple devices and I feel like it did or didn't count
0:06:27My steps or heart rate or exertion correctly and of course because these people are in the same zone as Marco where they're a slave
0:06:34to the green rings, they demand that their green rings reflect their activity, and so
0:06:39they're upset by it.
0:06:40Oh man, the green rings are getting harder to fill.
0:06:43Like now, I had to walk for an hour today to get, I think, 25 minutes worth of credit
0:06:48on it.
0:06:49Oh, seriously?
0:06:50Yeah, because like, well, part of it might be the way it's measuring.
0:06:53A bigger part of it is that because I keep filling it every day, I'm getting into better
0:06:58shape.
0:06:59And so, I think this is how things work, I don't know.
0:07:03but I think my body is having to exert itself less
0:07:06to do the same hills every day.
0:07:09- No, it scales it.
0:07:10It scales the amount.
0:07:11It starts you off with a small goal.
0:07:13You only have to do X amount of activity,
0:07:14and if you keep meeting that goal,
0:07:16it'll say, "Okay, now you gotta do X plus two,
0:07:17"X plus three, X plus four."
0:07:19- Well, I don't think that's,
0:07:21first of all, I don't think it automatically adjusts.
0:07:23It prompts you to adjust.
0:07:25- Yeah, I think it does automatically adjust.
0:07:27I remember reading that, but the people saying
0:07:29like that the activity that you have to do
0:07:31It starts off very easy so you feel like
0:07:33you're achieving something, but if you repeatedly
0:07:35achieve it, it will push the goal farther out from you.
0:07:37And you're also right about the heart rate stuff.
0:07:39- Well, yeah, first of all, I question whether that's true,
0:07:42but the heart rate is 30 minutes.
0:07:45The goal's always 30 minutes.
0:07:46I don't know what the threshold is
0:07:48considered to be an elevated heart rate.
0:07:51Is it 120?
0:07:52I have no idea.
0:07:53I'm estimating it's something around 120,
0:07:55but I really don't know.
0:07:56I can't really tell.
0:07:58- I think the only other follow-up item I had
0:08:00was from the episode.
0:08:01wasn't on where you were talking about the Johnny I of promotion or whatever you want
0:08:05to call it to from his what was his previous position like chief senior vice president
0:08:11of design I think or something like that right and now he's collateralized that obligation
0:08:15instead right so his his new title I think the various articles written about this covered
0:08:23all the points but as always it's like the mixture and you guys when you talked about
0:08:27mixture of what to emphasize. I mostly agree that this change in title is
0:08:35making up for the fact that
0:08:37he, not that he wants to leave, but that he
0:08:43he wants to do different things and that itch can turn into wanting to leave
0:08:50but it just seems like
0:08:53What I keep thinking of is if you were Johnny I've and you've done all the things that he's done
0:08:57What do you have left to prove in the making electronic devices space?
0:09:01Maybe the car is like again if you're thinking of what would keep Johnny I've around what would keep him excited. Is he excited about
0:09:09laptops desktops
0:09:12Airport things or whatever like maybe he still is excited
0:09:15But I'm just gonna say that he has nothing left to prove in those categories
0:09:17Like if he never doesn't it designs another thing
0:09:19He's still going to be one of the most well-known designers of the century he lived in right
0:09:25And so if you don't have anything left to prove, but you are an artistic person
0:09:28And you you want new challenges interesting things
0:09:31That's why I think the whole thing's like he's gonna participate in designing the stores
0:09:34I bet I bet he really wants to do that because that's slightly different than what he's been doing before
0:09:37And if they're doing a car I bet he's super into that and I bet he was super into the watch because it's a little bit
0:09:43different so I
0:09:44Don't think he's like he was out the door and they had to do this to keep him around
0:09:48But I do see this as a move he's he's stepping towards the door slowly
0:09:52Finding interesting things to pick up on his way to the door, and I think that's fine and the other thing is
0:09:58talking about this position of like well if you're delegating to these people if
0:10:02Alan Dye or whatever is doing the software and what's the other guy's name Haworth or something Richard Howard?
0:10:07Yeah, he's and he's gonna do the hardware, and it's like like you're just delegating everything
0:10:13And maybe you're gonna be looking at the store
0:10:14How can you be the chief of design the design chief of anything if everyone else is doing the actual work?
0:10:20And almost all the discussions except for good old Gruber always
0:10:25His article on this topic was one of those cases where he hit every single point
0:10:30I would if I was writing a thing about this I was reading his thing. I'm like, okay. Yeah, but he's gonna say this
0:10:34Yeah, okay. I wonder what this point. Yeah. Okay what he did every single point. I was gonna hit it was like
0:10:38Just read that article that is exactly my opinion and the one point that I saw a few people hit
0:10:43but he did was
0:10:45CDO who was the previous CDO Steve Jobs? He didn't do anything. All he did was oversee other people doing the things
0:10:51How can you have how can you have any influence on design if you don't design anything?
0:10:55That's basically what Steve Jobs did
0:10:56He didn't like run the company his CEO Tim Cook did that right and the other people did all the actual work of
0:11:02Making the hardware making the software doing different mock-ups, you know, he was the chief design officer
0:11:08That was his main job and everyone says oh without Steve Jobs
0:11:11I can't but then when Johnny I've moves into essentially the exact same position that Steve Jobs had people like oh god
0:11:16He can't have any influence
0:11:17He's out the door with Steve Jobs out the door because he didn't do any of the work
0:11:20Now granted Johnny I've has the ability to do a lot of the work that Steve Jobs didn't but I think it is
0:11:25Perfectly possible for Johnny I've in his current position to exert the same amount if not more control than he did
0:11:31Before because he will have more authority and he this is a higher-level position
0:11:35Even if it is a step towards the door
0:11:37So and then like you guys said I don't I don't think it's the end of the world if he leaves because I think at this
0:11:43point
0:11:44He should go do more interesting things and if he wants to design
0:11:48Thermostats or airplanes more power to him
0:11:51I think Apple is in good hands
0:11:53And it's kind of like any car company that has a designer that sort of defines the signature look of the car company eventually
0:11:59The car company wants a different look and just hope the next guy come who comes in isn't you know a bangle or whatever?
0:12:04Yeah, I was gonna say Chris Bangle though, everyone kind of wanted him out and in this case everyone wants Johnny to stay
0:12:10So it's it's similar but yet very different all at the same time
0:12:14Well, but like Bangle was a change from the old BMW look which was very conservative
0:12:17And so all the cars kind of look the same and this was definitely you may not like the new look
0:12:22But it was a change the same thing with Mercedes which was on the other direction
0:12:24They used to look like kind of boring cars and then their new design direction was much more daring
0:12:28Seriously, you think the new Mercedes is look daring? Oh, yeah much more dare. Are you kidding?
0:12:34go look at what they look like in the 80s and even in the early 90s then all of a sudden they got swoopy and
0:12:38Much more interesting looking designs. They don't didn't all look the same
0:12:42And I like the new ones way better than the old ones. Yep
0:12:46but but anyway, like regardless of what your opinion any sort of brand identity or design has to go through some
0:12:53You can't use the same design forever and we've talked about this in terms of material science like aluminum and glass
0:12:59It's probably gonna ask you last a really long time
0:13:02But at a certain point maybe three design revisions from now like three three look revolutions three decades
0:13:07Or you know three sets of 20 years. They'll be a materials revolution and actually now
0:13:12It's not a question of how we shape aluminum and glass and whatever into different things
0:13:16But it's entirely different materials that have different properties and Johnny
0:13:19I would be long gone by them, but anyway
0:13:20I don't see it as the end of the world if he leaves in a couple years all right any other follow-up
0:13:27So, Jeff Williams is the Senior Vice President of Operations,
0:13:30not the COO, as previously stated on the program.
0:13:33- Yep, my mistake.
0:13:35- Alright, cool.
0:13:35What's awesome these days, Marco?
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0:17:26- Alright, so not to take a page out of
0:17:30Connected's playbook, but since we are also
0:17:34a photo management podcast, there's been some news.
0:17:38And Google Photos is a thing.
0:17:40So Google had IO, what was it, last week, is that right?
0:17:45- It was the day after we recorded last week's episode.
0:17:48- Of course it was.
0:17:49- That was well planned.
0:17:50♫ Happy to die, Joe
0:17:51- And so they released Google Photos,
0:17:53which from what I gather is what everyone wanted
0:17:57from photo management, maybe.
0:18:00(laughs)
0:18:01So what it allows you to do is it allows you
0:18:03to upload all of your photos.
0:18:06You can have an unlimited amount of storage,
0:18:08unlimited amount of storage if you allow Google to recompress your pictures. It's
0:18:14very cheap if you want to give them money to store full res
0:18:19pictures. And from everything I've heard, I haven't had a chance to try this yet,
0:18:23from everything I've heard it has unbelievable search capabilities. So I
0:18:29think it might have been Russell Vanovich that had searched for sleeping
0:18:33or something like that and there were a bunch of pictures of him and other
0:18:37people asleep. And I'm sure it was him. He searched for the opera house in Sydney. And
0:18:44not only did it find pictures with the opera house in Sydney in it, but it found a picture
0:18:50of a picture of the Sydney Opera House, which I guess, in a lot of ways it makes sense,
0:18:57but it's just that's kind of crazy all at the same time. So it is supposed to be really,
0:19:02really good from everything I've gathered. Have you either of you guys had a chance to
0:19:06Marco, have you tried it?
0:19:08- You know, the world of tech is a really big place,
0:19:11and there's only so much you can reasonably try
0:19:14and put real effort and spend real time with.
0:19:17And, you know, I'm not gonna try,
0:19:20I never have tried everything that comes out,
0:19:23and I never will, I will never have time for that,
0:19:25nor is that really interesting to me.
0:19:26So, I have not tried this either.
0:19:28So, you know, I can comment on it
0:19:29as a person who uses Apple's version of this,
0:19:32as a person who uses Apple versions of most things,
0:19:35as a person who has a lot of photos.
0:19:37And to me, first of all, I think it's worth noting
0:19:42that this is basically the only thing
0:19:43anybody's talking about from Google I/O.
0:19:45Like this was the big announcement, I think.
0:19:48I think it's worth pointing out that Google
0:19:50is kind of taking this, it seems,
0:19:54taking this year to mature things
0:19:56and do some less interesting
0:19:58but necessary improvements everywhere.
0:20:00Which is exactly what we're kind of hoping Apple will do.
0:20:02Right?
0:20:03- Oh, absolutely.
0:20:05So that I think is interesting and I hope Apple takes the same opportunity.
0:20:10But anyway, so Google Photos, I think it's really interesting.
0:20:12I think the big things everyone seems to be talking about are what you said are the pricing
0:20:19and the unlimited storage tier with the asterisk of recompressing and not supporting RAW, but
0:20:25the unlimited star storage tier and the really, really good intelligence of recognizing things
0:20:31and being able to search for things.
0:20:34Those are really nice, however, neither of those really appeal to me. I've never done
0:20:40like keywording or much metadata entry for my photos. And that's just, you know, some
0:20:46people do, some people don't. I just don't. So I browse things just by date and I find
0:20:52them looking for that way very, very easily just by skimming the timeline view and everything
0:20:56in Apple stuff. So the thing about being able to search for things, like that's, it's a
0:21:02a very impressive technical achievement
0:21:03that solves a problem I don't have.
0:21:05And then the unlimited storage thing
0:21:07with the asterisk is nice.
0:21:10A lot of people will use that.
0:21:12I don't want that.
0:21:14I want, if I'm gonna invest time and bandwidth and data
0:21:18and possibly money into a photo storage solution,
0:21:23I want it to store my originals,
0:21:25and that includes massive files,
0:21:27and that includes raw files.
0:21:28And that's only, like, you know,
0:21:30limit right now is 16 megapixel, I believe,
0:21:32and it's using JPEG recompression to lower the rate
0:21:36even further.
0:21:37That, to me, like, again, I can see a lot of people
0:21:42will be just fine with that, but I'm about to,
0:21:46like, my camera for the last, oh god, I don't know,
0:21:49six, seven years has been a 5D Mark II,
0:21:52and that's already, you know, from six, seven years ago,
0:21:55granted, it was a high-end camera back then,
0:21:56but that already is, like, 22 megapixels,
0:22:00or 21 megapixels, that's already past the limit.
0:22:03Every camera on the market today that's really good
0:22:07usually starts at 16 megapixels.
0:22:10Like all the Micro Four Thirds cameras
0:22:13and the Fuji X system and the little Sonys
0:22:17that are not the Alpha 7 full frame series.
0:22:21Almost all of those are 16 megapixels starting.
0:22:25And many of them are now 24, some of them are even 36 now.
0:22:296 now and Canon just released a 50 megapixel camera. So, like, there's, if you're buying
0:22:35nice cameras, then you will be classified as a "pro" and all these consumer level solutions
0:22:41are going to either limit you or not appeal to you and they seem to not care. They seem
0:22:46to be okay to give you up. Unfortunately, I kind of fall on that side of that line just
0:22:52by a little bit. So, like, I fall on the pro line just enough to want fancy editing controls
0:22:58like what Lightroom gives me, and just enough to have a nice enough camera where I want
0:23:02to shoot 24 megapixel images, but not so far that I want to abandon these systems completely
0:23:06and give up all the cool sync stuff that they offer.
0:23:08I have two minds on this sort of asterisk recompression thing. On the one side you say,
0:23:15"Boy, this is actually kind of dangerous," because a lot of people asked when this came
0:23:17out, "Oh, hey, can I use Google Photos to back up my photos?" And the answer is, if
0:23:22you're using the free thing, no, because you're not really getting a backup. What you're getting
0:23:26is a place where you can see your pictures but it is changing them, it's recompressing
0:23:30them so it's not really a backup.
0:23:31But on the other hand, by making it free and unlimited, it is way more attractive to people
0:23:37who would otherwise do nothing to organize their photos.
0:23:40And therefore it does serve as, "hey it's a hell of a lot better than nothing" kind
0:23:44of backup for the people who previously just left all their pictures on their phone for
0:23:47instance, right?
0:23:48Like all, just all their pictures are on their Android phone and then they drop their phone
0:23:51in a lake and they're like, "oh yeah, where are my pictures?"
0:23:54This is a great solution for those people because even though it recompresses, the fact
0:23:58that it's free and unlimited, they don't care about the asterisk and it's way better than
0:24:02what they were doing before which is probably nothing.
0:24:04So I think this probably hits the sweet spot of Google's target user which is the mass
0:24:09market and not people who have fancy cameras, basically people who take pictures with their
0:24:13phones.
0:24:14Phones aren't yet 16 megapixels, they will be in a few years, but I think it is the right
0:24:20solution for their audience and it also has the added benefit of making Apple's pricing
0:24:26look terrible because even though it's not apples to apples, nobody knows or cares about
0:24:30that.
0:24:31If you were to explain to somebody, "No, you don't get it," Google re-compresses their
0:24:33image and you try to explain what that means and they say, "Okay, show me the pictures."
0:24:35They're like, "Oh, they look the same to me."
0:24:37And realistically, they do.
0:24:38Like we're not going to be zooming way in on someone's eyeball on a 16-megapixel image
0:24:41to show them, "See how Google re-compresses it and it looks like a mess?"
0:24:44They're like, "Yeah, but I look at them like this and they look fine.
0:24:46They look the same."
0:24:47I think this is the right compromise,
0:24:49even though it was disappointing when I learned
0:24:52free and unlimited that that asterisk was there,
0:24:54for me personally, but for everybody else,
0:24:57definitely a good deal.
0:24:59- Real quick, real time follow up,
0:25:00the Galaxy S6 is 16 megapixel.
0:25:04- There you go, we're already there.
0:25:05Oh, that's right, the Nokia whatever
0:25:08had the super high megapixel camera a couple years ago,
0:25:11so we're probably a couple years into that.
0:25:12- There's also, I think we might be about
0:25:14to have a big megapixel spike,
0:25:16because there's a couple of cameras in the market,
0:25:19and I think one or two phones that even do this,
0:25:21where, so, you know, we've seen over the last few years
0:25:25how many of the, many of the cameras
0:25:27and many smaller phones, or many phones,
0:25:29including the iPhone 6 Plus,
0:25:31has optical image stabilization,
0:25:32and they do this by sensor shift.
0:25:34They basically have accelerometers,
0:25:36and they shift the sensor around really quickly
0:25:39and adjust for camera shake and motion.
0:25:43Well, somebody figured out recently
0:25:45that you can use sensor shift to basically interpolate
0:25:49a super high resolution picture from multiple captures.
0:25:53So what they do is in very quick succession,
0:25:56when you hit the shutter button in this special mode,
0:25:58some of these cameras can basically use the image stabilizer
0:26:01system to shift the sensor very slightly
0:26:04in different directions over the course of a few seconds
0:26:07to kind of interpolate a higher megapixel mode.
0:26:10That can make a 16 megapixel sensor
0:26:12take like a 50 megapixel image.
0:26:15This could get, especially in the spec-obsessed,
0:26:18hyper-competitive, camera-obsessed smartphone market,
0:26:21it would not surprise me at all if this becomes
0:26:25a very, very common feature among smartphone cameras.
0:26:29And even though the optics will still be kinda crappy,
0:26:32and even though the sensors will still be kinda crappy
0:26:34with really tiny pixels, this will be a way
0:26:36for many phones and many cameras
0:26:37to claim ridiculous megapixel counts.
0:26:40And there is additional resolution to be had there.
0:26:42It's not, you know, it isn't as good as if you actually had
0:26:46a giant sensor that big in most cases.
0:26:48But it's better than not doing this at all.
0:26:52So--
0:26:53- I think people will use that for digital zoom
0:26:55because I see people do that all the time.
0:26:56They don't understand the quality loss
0:26:58inherent in digital zoom.
0:26:59But if you have 50 megapixels,
0:27:01'cause it's not, you know, why do you need 50 megapixels?
0:27:03Unless you're printing out something poster size
0:27:04or you're going to print it super high D,
0:27:07like no one's gonna do that.
0:27:08They just want pictures that are like human size
0:27:10that are on their mantle.
0:27:11you know, eight megapixels is fine for that,
0:27:1316 megapixels is fine.
0:27:14So if you have 50, what does that buy you?
0:27:16That buys you the ability to pinch
0:27:18while you're taking the picture,
0:27:19to zoom in and out instead of like walking closer
0:27:21or farther away,
0:27:22and still get a 10 megapixel image out of it.
0:27:25- Yeah.
0:27:26No, I think the key piece to me
0:27:29is what you had said, Marco, a little while ago,
0:27:31that I really, I personally love the idea
0:27:34of having this really robust search engine on my pictures.
0:27:38I'm not really interested in weighing the pros and cons
0:27:41giving my pictures to Google, but the problem I have with it is if I'm going to get into
0:27:46this position where I have all of my pictures on Google Photos, I'm going to want that to
0:27:51also serve as a backup in addition to being a really robust search engine.
0:27:55And I know I've talked about Picture Life quite a lot on and off over the last few months,
0:28:00but I really love Picture Life for a bunch of reasons, including them having a good search
0:28:06engine, mostly around dates or locations.
0:28:09as advanced as what Google Photos is doing, but also because they'll take every file as
0:28:14it sits on the computer, including raw files.
0:28:17And granted, you have to pay for it.
0:28:19And I think I pay $15 a month for a limited storage.
0:28:22I think I might be quoting that wrong.
0:28:26But it serves not only as a nice repository, it does the time hop style thing where it
0:28:32says, "Oh, this day, one year ago, two years ago, three years ago, this is what you were
0:28:35doing."
0:28:36But it also allows me to search for pictures very easily.
0:28:38It allows me access to all of my pictures while I'm on the go.
0:28:42It does a lot of the stuff that Google Photos and actually Photos app and iCloud Photos,
0:28:48iCloud Photo Library, whatever, should and intends to do.
0:28:52But man, I would absolutely pay for and switch to Google Photos if I felt like it got me
0:29:02things that Picture Life didn't.
0:29:04And right now it's getting me a search engine, but it's not getting me, I don't think, a
0:29:08a lot of the other stuff that I really love,
0:29:09like the Timehop.
0:29:10- It'll get you like better face recognition
0:29:12and it does some weird AI thing
0:29:14where it composes a nice picture for you
0:29:16and makes albums based on good stuff.
0:29:18But anyway, you can get this, you can pay.
0:29:20You can pay Google, you know,
0:29:21it just goes towards your Google account storage.
0:29:22If you pay for like terabyte of storage,
0:29:24then it will back up whatever the hell you want.
0:29:26Like, and that's the other thing that's a shame
0:29:28about the asterisk, is people might dismiss it then,
0:29:31the nerdy people listening say,
0:29:31"Oh, well, I don't want it to recompress my images."
0:29:33That's just for the free one.
0:29:35If you pay Google money,
0:29:36you could store whatever the heck you want
0:29:38because they charge you for the amount of storage you use.
0:29:40And the rates for storage are not, they're not cheap,
0:29:42but they're cheaper than Apple still.
0:29:44- Yeah, it's about half the price.
0:29:45- Yeah, and as many of the competitors are,
0:29:48as I went over last time,
0:29:49Apple is still a little bit out of whack in the thing.
0:29:51- Same as Dropbox, right?
0:29:5310 bucks a month for a terabyte?
0:29:54That's Dropbox, right?
0:29:55- I don't remember their pricing,
0:29:56but Dropbox is still below Apple for the big,
0:29:59especially for the big tier.
0:30:00- Yeah.
0:30:02- And I have to tell you, I'm tempted by this Google thing
0:30:05because the features it has, and more importantly,
0:30:07the performance characteristics that I assume it has
0:30:10based on all my experience with server-side stuff,
0:30:12that it's like, look, it doesn't matter
0:30:14how fast my computer is, because most of the magic
0:30:17is happening on the server side.
0:30:18It's sort of like why I use Gmail.
0:30:20I have a ton of email, ton of filters.
0:30:22All I ever see on my screen is one set of email things.
0:30:25So it doesn't matter that this label or folder
0:30:28or whatever has 60,000 emails in it.
0:30:31I can switch to it and immediately see what's there,
0:30:34because it just shows one screen full.
0:30:35And I don't mind clicking next to go to the next screen full
0:30:38as opposed to clicking something in Outlook
0:30:40and watching it grind and beach ball my thing
0:30:41so it can display a scrolling list view
0:30:44with 60,000 email messages, right?
0:30:46This is the advantage of server side versus client side.
0:30:48The disadvantage is you don't get a nice scroll bar
0:30:50to do it, but the advantage is everything
0:30:51is always responsive.
0:30:52So I would imagine that Google Photos, like Google Search,
0:30:57would let me find all the pictures of a particular person
0:31:00with its face recognition,
0:31:01which I have to assume is superior to Apple's,
0:31:03even if just in that it doesn't grind my computer to death
0:31:06when it's detecting faces,
0:31:07it grinds Google's computers to death
0:31:09when it's detecting faces.
0:31:10And same for all the other stuff
0:31:11where you can just type in receipt
0:31:12and it'll find all your receipts.
0:31:13You can type in Sydney Opera House,
0:31:14you can type in statue, you can type in grass,
0:31:17like whatever, you know,
0:31:18they have lots of smarts behind this
0:31:20that are not going to be duplicated in a local computer.
0:31:23It's like Google's giant computing cluster
0:31:25and the fact that they share all the information
0:31:27about image detection
0:31:28and that it makes the whole system smarter and all that.
0:31:30All of these are features I like
0:31:32and their rates are cheaper than Apple
0:31:33and they were saving the uncompressed stuff.
0:31:36But for photos, I'm gonna give Apple's photos app,
0:31:39despite it being super slow and everything,
0:31:41a little bit more time to mature because this is the 1.0,
0:31:44it's basically a complete rewrite.
0:31:46So far it has been reliable,
0:31:49if only incredibly slow and maddening.
0:31:52And there's one update on my Apple photos complaints.
0:31:56There's one new behavior that's really pissing me off.
0:31:59In addition to being super slow
0:32:01When I'm going through pictures of like hit the right arrow,
0:32:03the left arrow, add a keyword,
0:32:05hit the period key to favorite.
0:32:06I'm trying to come up with like a nice keyboard only
0:32:08workflow for sort of going through my pictures
0:32:10after I take them to organize them and tag them.
0:32:12Frequently I'll come upon one that I want to delete
0:32:15'cause it's crappy and I'm not doing like the one star thing
0:32:17anymore, I just delete now 'cause I have just have fave
0:32:19and non-fave, so if I see something that's one star,
0:32:21just delete immediately.
0:32:22Delete of course takes forever, fine, take forever,
0:32:25sit there for, sometimes I count one, two, three, four,
0:32:30Oh, there it went.
0:32:31It deleted, right?
0:32:32And then the next picture comes up.
0:32:34And then I'll hit the arrow key or hit delete.
0:32:38I'll hit the arrow key and then I'll see
0:32:40the next picture I wanna delete.
0:32:41And I'll hit delete.
0:32:43And I'll look up at the screen
0:32:44and I'll see what has happened is,
0:32:46after I went to the next picture,
0:32:48I deleted one and then I went to the next picture.
0:32:51Now, like my delete, like iCloud has caught up
0:32:53with my delete and it has moved sort of my cursor
0:32:56from the picture I was looking at
0:32:58to the one that was before the one I deleted.
0:33:00So then whatever key I hit, like favoriting or whatever,
0:33:03applies to the picture before the one I just deleted
0:33:05instead of the next one.
0:33:06Like it doesn't preserve my position,
0:33:09my selection state in the thing
0:33:11because the collection view like reshuffles
0:33:13behind the scenes and I will find myself looking
0:33:14at a picture I wasn't looking at before.
0:33:17Maddening, like that's a potential for,
0:33:19if someone was not paying enough attention,
0:33:23they might not realize what happened.
0:33:24They might not realize that you thought
0:33:25you were on the next picture,
0:33:26Really after you hit next picture it said no no no here you are on the picture before you were deleted
0:33:31and you might not realize that you tagged that wrong or
0:33:33deleted it or something else and if it happened to do that delete fast enough when you were looking down like I
0:33:38Can imagine that being a data loss bug waiting to happen and stuff like that in addition to being super slow
0:33:44It's like this is so slow and laggy that it is it is breaking the model of the UI like it's like outlook
0:33:502011 all over again where the selection state is changing underneath my my cursor
0:33:55So I'm really not liking the experience with photos
0:33:59other than the fact that it is accepting all of my uploads
0:34:03and presumably preserving them
0:34:05and they're all in a cloud and blah, blah, blah.
0:34:07- Well, and to me, that I think is the most important part.
0:34:10If you have an Android phone and you use Google stuff,
0:34:15then by all means use Google's photo thing.
0:34:18That makes the most sense.
0:34:19My most frequently used camera is my iPhone.
0:34:23And the fact is that nothing integrates better
0:34:27with my most frequently used camera
0:34:29than Apple's Photo Storage thing.
0:34:31And so Apple's Photo Storage thing would have to be
0:34:34really bad for me to not use it
0:34:37and to instead go over to something else.
0:34:40Because the convenience aspect
0:34:42is really incredibly powerful.
0:34:44Of just having the integration,
0:34:46having things like just instantly be over on my big computer
0:34:49or on different devices.
0:34:50- Well let's not say instantly,
0:34:52because one of the complaints,
0:34:53performance eventually becomes a feature deficit.
0:34:55One of the complaints for people with large libraries
0:34:57is you take a photo with your iPhone
0:34:59and then you, maybe a couple seconds pass,
0:35:02and then you wanna see that photo in your photos collection
0:35:06and you go to photos and it's not there yet.
0:35:08And why isn't it there yet?
0:35:09You just took it.
0:35:10Why is it not there yet?
0:35:11Because you have a giant collection
0:35:12and it takes a while to,
0:35:13I don't know what the hell it's doing.
0:35:15I don't think it's going anywhere.
0:35:16You took it on the phone.
0:35:17Surely it should show up in your photos collection,
0:35:19but there's a lag if you have large photo collection.
0:35:21And that's a leg that wasn't there before like this is one of my wife's complaints you turned on this iPhoto library
0:35:26whatever thing
0:35:27Because the photos are in her computer and because Apple doesn't understand how families work the photos have to be on one computer and blah
0:35:32blah blah we've complained about this before so
0:35:34She gets to have them on her phone and all it has done is made her camera on her phone less pleasant and made her
0:35:40photo pickers in every single app way slower and so again 1.0
0:35:44Hopefully this will be addressed
0:35:45This is a perfect thing for them to do in iOS 9 which we'll talk about when we get to
0:35:49WWDC predictions. So I'm gonna give the Apple one a chance, but I don't have many hang-ups about
0:35:54Google Photos, especially the ones where I'm paying for the storage because I feel like that is a I
0:35:59understand the relationship there. I give you money, you store my photos. I store more photos,
0:36:03I give you more money, and I love all the features they have for all their searching, face detection, and organization,
0:36:09and all that good stuff. So
0:36:12Apple better get its act together.
0:36:14Yeah, in a lot of ways
0:36:15I feel like this is Google at its best because it's leveraging all of its machine learning,
0:36:19all of its humongous server farms and whatnot in order to get something that's really very
0:36:24impressive and really awesome to use as a consumer. So I'm curious to see where this
0:36:30goes but I'll probably be checking it out at some point or another. With that said,
0:36:35what else is awesome, Marco?
0:36:36>> So our second sponsor this week is our friends, the nicest people in the world really,
0:36:41our friends at Studio Neat.
0:36:42>> Oh, they're the best.
0:36:43Aren't they?
0:36:44They're just, they're such nice guys, really.
0:36:46I mean, they're genuinely nice people,
0:36:47and they make really cool stuff.
0:36:48So, studioneat.com/atp is where you go to see
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0:36:54Studioneat.com/atp.
0:36:56Use code ATP for 10% off anything in their store.
0:37:00Now, order soon, because they're gonna probably
0:37:04have a big rush for Father's Day, if I can take a guess,
0:37:06because their stuff makes fantastic Father's Day
0:37:09and even graduation gifts.
0:37:11A lot of their stuff is cool iPhone things.
0:37:14A lot of their stuff is cool stuff about drinks,
0:37:16making drinks at home, Father's Day, graduation,
0:37:19really big holidays for the kind of stuff they make.
0:37:22They also have a new app, before I get into their stuff,
0:37:24they have a new app for iPhone called Highball.
0:37:27It's a free app and it's really big,
0:37:30almost as a companion to their cocktail products.
0:37:33When you download the app, you can tap the plus button
0:37:35on the home screen, then add from library,
0:37:37and then you can actually find special cocktail recipes
0:37:40inspired by the three ATP hosts.
0:37:43So really cool guys, they listen to our shows,
0:37:45you know, cool inside jokes.
0:37:47So check out their iPhone app, Highball.
0:37:49Now, their regular products, I love this stuff,
0:37:51I have a lot of their stuff.
0:37:52They have the Glyph, which is an iPhone tripod mount,
0:37:56and kind of like a built-in mini tripod.
0:37:58Really great, very, very handy.
0:38:00It came out a while ago, they've updated it
0:38:01a couple times since then.
0:38:03And the new one is adjustable, so it can work
0:38:05with multiple phone generations, most likely.
0:38:07They also have the Cosmonaut, which is an iPad stylus,
0:38:11or iPhone stylus, which I've tried a bunch
0:38:13of the various styli that exist for the touch screens.
0:38:16The Cosmonaut is by far my favorite one.
0:38:18It is so, so good.
0:38:19Now, their cocktail products are really interesting too.
0:38:23They have the Neat Ice Kit, and this is what we were
0:38:25talking about a lot last time I sponsored, I believe.
0:38:28The Neat Ice Kit lets you create crystal clear ice at home.
0:38:32And this is another one of the things,
0:38:34I've tried a couple of other things that attempt
0:38:36to make clear ice various Kickstarter projects and stuff.
0:38:40None of them have been as nicely working
0:38:43and as easy to use as the Neat Ice Kit,
0:38:46which I also have, and it's so much better.
0:38:49And it's easy, it's friendly.
0:38:51The Neat Ice Kit is very, very simple.
0:38:53All you do is they have this cylinder of water
0:38:57that you put in the freezer,
0:38:59and then it gives you this solid rectangle of ice,
0:39:03and one half of it is cloudy,
0:39:05and one and a half of it is clear.
0:39:06And so you take the included chisel
0:39:09to just cut it down the middle basically,
0:39:12and then you have a perfectly clear ice cube
0:39:14that you can then cut and shape however you want
0:39:16or just leave it as one giant cube.
0:39:17It is really, it is so easy to use.
0:39:20They also have the Simple Syrup Kit.
0:39:23Now this is something, I make simple syrup all the time.
0:39:25I make simple syrup in the summer mostly
0:39:28for my iced coffee recipe, which I'll link to somewhere.
0:39:30Simple syrup, you would think that making it without,
0:39:34you know, making it yourself without a custom kit,
0:39:37it's, you know, pretty straightforward.
0:39:38You combine water and sugar and mix it up
0:39:40and put it in a bottle somehow.
0:39:42So you would think your product like this
0:39:43wouldn't be necessary.
0:39:45I cannot tell you how good this is.
0:39:47I was smiling the whole time I was using it
0:39:49because it's like, yeah, you can make simple syrup
0:39:51without this, but there are parts of it that are annoying,
0:39:54there are parts of it that are kinda hard,
0:39:56kinda tricky to get right, and once you make it,
0:40:00you still have to have some kind of container
0:40:02to put it in and pour it out of.
0:40:04And really, they nailed it.
0:40:07Like every part of the simple syrup kit,
0:40:09they completely nailed it.
0:40:11The process of making it is simple.
0:40:14They have this little jar that's labeled perfectly
0:40:16for the ratios.
0:40:17You really don't have to measure anything.
0:40:19You just pour it in until it goes to the line.
0:40:21You can swish it around with that, no utensils needed.
0:40:23The pour spout that they have on this bottle is perfect.
0:40:27It doesn't dribble, it doesn't leak.
0:40:29You can shake it and nothing comes out.
0:40:31It does, like it's, they thought of everything.
0:40:33The bottle is exactly the right size
0:40:36to fit on any fridge shelf.
0:40:38They took every part of this process
0:40:40and they made it way better, so much so
0:40:43that I will never make simple syrup again
0:40:45without using their product.
0:40:46Like it's just so good.
0:40:48This also makes a great gift.
0:40:50Holidays, wedding gift, graduation, Father's Day,
0:40:52whatever you want, this is great.
0:40:54So, check out Studio Neat.
0:40:57These are such cool things.
0:40:58They're just cool products made by cool people.
0:41:02I think I've tried most of their products now,
0:41:05or even all of their products now,
0:41:07and they're all great.
0:41:08Like, I can't point to anything they've made
0:41:10that's been a dud.
0:41:11Check it out, really.
0:41:12Great stuff, reasonably priced, great gifts
0:41:15for fathers, jay, graduations, birthdays, whatever.
0:41:18Studio neat dot com slash ATP.
0:41:21That's studio neat dot com slash ATP,
0:41:24and use coupon code ATP for 10% off
0:41:27anything in their store.
0:41:28Thanks a lot once again to Studio Neat for sponsoring our show.
0:41:30Let me just pile on for two seconds.
0:41:32One, love the Neat Ice Kit used all the time.
0:41:35Two, you should check out the stop motion video they did for the Simple Syrup Kit.
0:41:39It's just very, very well done and very clever.
0:41:41And they had a blog post about it at some point or another about how they did it.
0:41:45And that's also very interesting.
0:41:46So you should check that out.
0:41:48In other news, so apparently we know what Thunderbolt 3 is and it looks just like USB-C.
0:41:55Not just like USB-C, there's an important difference that we'll get to in a bit, but
0:41:59yes, if you didn't think it was confusing enough, now we have two different things that
0:42:06use the same connector.
0:42:07It's kind of like we finally got rid of the USB Type-A connector where it's symmetrical
0:42:12on the outside but asymmetrical on the inside so you have to try three times to get it plugged
0:42:15in the right way.
0:42:16Finally, you know, we talked about the USB Type-C connector, that's gone, it goes in
0:42:19either way, it's perfect, no more cabling problems.
0:42:22We've now swapped that for plug in this adapter, plug it into the display.
0:42:26Does it not work?
0:42:27Oh, that must be the Thunderbolt one.
0:42:28It doesn't work with MacBook one.
0:42:29Try the other one.
0:42:30Plug that one.
0:42:31You have to try two different things to plug in.
0:42:33It doesn't matter which way you plug it in, but you have no idea if the one you're using
0:42:36is the right one for your device.
0:42:38This will be a transitional period too, but it is a little bit frustrating that Apple
0:42:42actually shipped machines with USB-C connectors that are not Thunderbolt 3, and so they'll
0:42:47forever be this weird, not forever, but until they go away, they'll be these weird, weird
0:42:52weird machine that has a connector that's not a Thunderbolt connector but it looks like
0:42:56all the other machines that have a Thunderbolt connector.
0:42:57Yeah, it is a little bit weird. Yeah, it does seem like kind of a kind of
0:43:02weird timing to have released the MacBook One because if you look here, it's a brand
0:43:07new computer, this brand new line. There was not like massive pressure for them to release
0:43:13the MacBook One when they did, you know, and it seems like six months away from when Skylake
0:43:21will be out most likely from when Thunderbolt 3,
0:43:25which will come with Skylake in all likelihood,
0:43:27when that will be available.
0:43:28So it seems like they released the MacBook One
0:43:30like six months too early.
0:43:32- Yeah, they should have just made a retina MacBook Air.
0:43:34We talked about that before, and like,
0:43:35oh, I would have liked that machine better, blah, blah, blah.
0:43:37But now forget about who would like what machine better.
0:43:39Just in terms of product line planning and succession
0:43:41and like transition between ports,
0:43:43it would have been better overall for everybody now,
0:43:45knowing what we now know about Skylake availability
0:43:48and Thunderbolt 3 to have made retina MacBook Airs,
0:43:53like in the exact form they are in now.
0:43:55Same connector, same everything, same battery,
0:43:57just put a retina screen on it,
0:43:58put the lower power chips, right?
0:44:00'Cause that would be, it would be a more boring machine,
0:44:03but then you'd have a clean transition front.
0:44:05These were the old world laptops,
0:44:06and then here are the new ones,
0:44:08and they all have Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C connectors,
0:44:11and it's all uniform.
0:44:12This machine, this MacBook One is looking more and more
0:44:15like this weird sort of transitional platypus thing
0:44:20that is, you know, and like, and you can't,
0:44:24you can't tell the future is like, oh,
0:44:25they should have known exactly what Intel's availability be.
0:44:28It's like the schedule has slipped
0:44:31when all these things were planned many months or years ago,
0:44:34you can't exactly predict the future.
0:44:36So it was kind of a shame.
0:44:38We'll get over it, but yeah,
0:44:40that's what happens when schedules slip,
0:44:42you end up doing strange things.
0:44:44And apparently this supports 4K displays,
0:44:49two of them in fact, is that right?
0:44:51- Yeah, it's enough bandwidth to support two 4Ks at 60 hertz
0:44:55which if you do enough tricks,
0:44:58that is also enough bandwidth to support
0:44:59a single 5K display over one cable.
0:45:02- But the weird thing is they keep saying
0:45:04it's DisplayPort 1.2, not 1.3.
0:45:06And I don't remember the limitations of the spec,
0:45:09but I mean, does that all fit together?
0:45:11a single 5K display over a display.
0:45:14I guess it's ganging two DisplayPort 1.2 connections
0:45:17over the single cable, right?
0:45:18Like technically speaking, that's what it's doing.
0:45:20You don't have to have two wires connected anymore,
0:45:22but under the covers, do you imagine
0:45:24that it is basically two DisplayPort 1.2 channels?
0:45:27- That's certainly how the little information
0:45:30we have about it, that's how it reads to me.
0:45:32That's what it's doing, that it is doing
0:45:34dual DisplayPort 1.2s, 'cause it can do 4K at 60 hertz
0:45:38using DisplayPort 1.2, it can do two of those.
0:45:41So that certainly does seem like that's what it's doing.
0:45:44- This is essentially what everyone's been talking about
0:45:47since the '80s or the '70s even.
0:45:50Someday there will be one interconnect to rule everything.
0:45:53That was some of the early hype about FireWire,
0:45:55if you can believe it.
0:45:56Those of us who were around back before FireWire
0:45:58was actually a thing.
0:45:59It was like, I know you got all these connections
0:46:01in the back of your Mac,
0:46:03but this one bus is gonna do everything.
0:46:05Forget about USB, that's just for mice and keyboards.
0:46:08This FireWire thing, because it's like peer-to-peer
0:46:10and daisy chainable and doesn't require the then much weaker CPUs to do work to get data
0:46:17along.
0:46:18It's the best of all possible worlds and it's serial instead of parallel and the connectors
0:46:21are small and they're easy to plug and unplug and you know it didn't quite work out for
0:46:24FireWire but the slow consolidation of all the differently shaped holes in the sides
0:46:29of our computers into a single kind of port.
0:46:33There's only one kind of hole and we can have multiple ones of them and it's uniform and
0:46:36they can do everything.
0:46:38what we're finally finally getting to and I think it was an incredibly wise
0:46:42smart forward-looking perhaps necessary move for Thunderbolt to to do both of
0:46:49the things that did the first thing it did was we're not gonna make a new
0:46:52connector for Thunderbolt we're gonna piggyback on many display port because
0:46:55by the way we support display so it was like you can connect your drives but
0:46:59also your display and also kind of your docking station or whatever it's kind of
0:47:02like a parasite or one of those little, not lamprey, not eel, but the actual word for
0:47:10the little sucker fishy thing that stick on the side of a shark.
0:47:12We're going to hitch a ride on an already existing successful port.
0:47:16And so they hitch a ride on Mini DisplayPort because in that time Thunderbolt was presenting
0:47:21itself as a cool bus to connect your high speed stuff, but also your display, and in
0:47:26fact both at once.
0:47:27And now it has found a much more attractive host.
0:47:30Forget about Mini DisplayPort.
0:47:32USB-C, it's delicious. It's an awesome connector. We love it. We're super jealous of that symmetrical connector. It's smaller
0:47:37It's going to be everywhere we get on that train then finally we can legitimately have computers that just have
0:47:44one or more hopefully more on the pro machines
0:47:47USB-C type connector that literally does everything that the computer can do
0:47:52With a series of adapters and all sorts of other stuff, so that's still a little bit annoying
0:47:58But it is the the future that we expected the only difference is
0:48:01It is not one magical bus instead it is one magical wire over which we shove all the existing old stuff
0:48:08So display port is still going over there and you've got USB going over it and you've also got what you know
0:48:13The the PCI Express lanes for your graphics card or whatever other stuff you have externally so it's it's one cable
0:48:19But it's lots of different protocols and sort of channels and buses all going over that one cable
0:48:24Which I guess is better than nothing
0:48:27It's still not quite the uniform world where we imagined everything would be speaking one
0:48:30protocol and they'd all be jumping on this one big beautiful bus that just powers everything,
0:48:35but maybe we'll get there someday.
0:48:38And it is definitely an improvement over what we have today, which is, you know, Thunderbolt,
0:48:43first of all, I've, and I think you agree, I've never liked the amazing DisplayPort as
0:48:47a port, as a physical port, as a cable end.
0:48:50Better than SCSI.
0:48:51Yeah, but that's not a very high bar.
0:48:55- I would say it's also better than USB Type-A
0:48:57because it is smaller and externally asymmetrical.
0:49:00- Well, maybe, but it also doesn't feel
0:49:03like it's very securely inserted most of the time.
0:49:05It feels like it can slide out partially very, very easily,
0:49:09whereas USB has always gripped in there pretty well.
0:49:11- Well, I can't tell if that's like,
0:49:13because I have, there are some USB Type-A things
0:49:17that feel very secure and some that feel loose
0:49:19or get looser over time, so it's hard to tell
0:49:21if that is a construction thing
0:49:23or it's the fault of the port itself.
0:49:25I believe it's possible to have a secure-feeling Thunderbolt
0:49:28port, just like I know that it's possible to have
0:49:30a secure-feeling USB Type-A port and also a really loose one
0:49:34that feels crappy.
0:49:36Well, maybe.
0:49:37But regardless, I've never felt a Thunderbolt port
0:49:39that felt really secure to me.
0:49:41And the kind of stuff you're plugging in there,
0:49:43usually it's stuff like advanced drive arrays or a network
0:49:48adapter for the laptop or something.
0:49:50It's things where you really don't want it to just
0:49:53randomly fall out as you're using it,
0:49:55like that would be inconvenient or cause problems.
0:49:58So it is, that always kind of makes me feel
0:50:01a little weird about it.
0:50:02But USB-C really like locks in places.
0:50:05USB-C is a very secure feeling connector.
0:50:08It does not at all have that problem,
0:50:10as far as I could tell from my brief time with one.
0:50:13So that I think is a massive improvement.
0:50:17You know, also now we have the 5K issue fairly solved,
0:50:21it looks like.
0:50:23so that also helps.
0:50:24Again, I think though you're right
0:50:26that the problem is now the complexity of,
0:50:31well, this thing can be plugged into this USB-C port,
0:50:34but not that USB-C port,
0:50:36and there's no visual way to identify which is which,
0:50:38and you're gonna have--
0:50:39- Is it a USB-C port?
0:50:40What is the, how would you even call the port now?
0:50:43Because is it the Thunderbolt 3 port?
0:50:46Do you call it by the name of the highest speed bus
0:50:48that can run over a wire that you connect into that port?
0:50:51It's weird.
0:50:52Like when the presumed Skylake MacBook Pros come out with ports whose connector is the
0:50:59shape of the USB Type-C connector, will all those ports be called Thunderbolt ports?
0:51:04Will we call them all USB ports?
0:51:07Will we call them anything different when two DisplayPort 1.2 things change to two DisplayPort
0:51:131.3s and you can have four 4K displays on some future machine?
0:51:18Is it still a Thunderbolt 3 port or is it a Thunderbolt 3.1 port?
0:51:21Like names become meaningless. It is just a wire over which we multiplex all sorts of
0:51:26signals. The standards and protocols of those signals advance over time and the maximum
0:51:31throughput of the wire itself advances over time. But we just keep calling them, maybe
0:51:35we'll just call them ports. Like maybe we'll just, our grandkids will just be like, how
0:51:39many ports does your computer have and how fast do those ports go? And it becomes less
0:51:43important to have a name for it. I don't even know.
0:51:46But it's gonna make it very difficult for everybody,
0:51:50especially non-super-informed geeks like we hope we are.
0:51:54But it's gonna be a big problem for everybody,
0:51:57where like, okay, I have a computer
0:51:59that has this port on it.
0:52:00I want to buy this peripheral.
0:52:02Or I'm out of ports, I wanna buy a hub
0:52:05to give me more ports.
0:52:07And then half your devices stop working,
0:52:09'cause it's a USB-C hub,
0:52:10and half your devices are Thunderbolt.
0:52:11And you have no way to know that, really, ahead of time.
0:52:15Things, right now, you can look at the ports that you have
0:52:19and you can look at devices and cables
0:52:20and peripherals and hubs, and you just know,
0:52:24oh, this is the shape port,
0:52:26I have two of those on my computer,
0:52:27I can plug that into that and it will probably work.
0:52:30- Use your skills learned on a shape sorter
0:52:32when you were a toddler.
0:52:33(laughing)
0:52:34- Right, like in this new world where we have this,
0:52:37we have one port that is most likely
0:52:40going to be very common, and there's already tons
0:52:45tons of cables and hubs and devices on the market for USB-C now. There's already tons
0:52:52of them and all those hubs that exist now that everyone's buying now with their MacBook
0:52:571s, they're gonna, you know, in two years they're still gonna have that. They're
0:53:00gonna have a different laptop maybe and it's not gonna work with half their stuff. It's
0:53:04gonna be a weird situation that I'm not sure is a good thing overall.
0:53:09>> Well, as people in the chat room are pointing out, like, and as Intel has been pushing with
0:53:14technologies that is trying to attach to Skylake or make part of the same sort of
0:53:19push for new products we talked about in past shows, the whole idea of wireless
0:53:23connectivity which maybe isn't here yet, maybe isn't up to snuff for Apple
0:53:29standards yet, but going to a uniform connector everywhere with different
0:53:35protocols put over it is an improvement over the status quo and eventually you
0:53:38would imagine that the things that can be wireless sort of high speed, high
0:53:42bandwidth near field low power wireless can we get that to the point where the
0:53:49ports just stop being used for anything except for maybe power you know sort of
0:53:55the zero port thing that we talked about with it with the MacBook one that's not
0:54:00I don't think that far in the future in the order of you know the good old five
0:54:05to ten years thing so I think this is a step up from where we were we'll just
0:54:11deal with the confusion and what comes out on the other side of it is not a final unification
0:54:16on a single protocol on a single wire but rather the slow deterioration of the wire
0:54:21is an important thing that you plug into your devices for anything other than charging.
0:54:24I mean we're already there with iOS devices, we've just convinced the entire world you
0:54:28don't plug anything into this thing except for a cable to charge it.
0:54:33Everything else you do with it you do wirelessly.
0:54:35Even though that's not technically true you can plug all sorts of things into it.
0:54:38I think people like the idea of the wireless stuff, even as flaky and as unreliable as
0:54:43it is now.
0:54:44New versions of Bluetooth, near fields for the Apple Pay stuff, future protocols that
0:54:50do similar things for displaying, doing air, what is it, air display?
0:54:55What the hell is that called?
0:54:57Airplay.
0:54:58Airplay, doing airplay over different protocols.
0:54:59They'll keep calling it airplay, but whatever the weird wireless high definition display
0:55:05standard that Intel comes up with several years from now. Building that in
0:55:10instead of doing it the way Apple does it now with H.264 compression over a
0:55:13regular old Wi-Fi, like that I think is the the long-term end state of this. But
0:55:18in the meantime I am very excited about a future line of computers period, not
0:55:24just laptops, but I'm excited about a new trashcan Mac Pro with a bunch of
0:55:29Thunderbolt 3 ports on the back, whatever the hell you want to call it, like just
0:55:33the back of this machine will just be bristling with little tiny USB 3D shaped holes even
0:55:38more than there are Thunderbolt ports and it'll have more capabilities and it will be
0:55:45less of a hassle to plug things into it.
0:55:47This is the final point on Thunderbolt 3.
0:55:49They've finally seen the light on another thing which is the stupid Thunderbolt cables
0:55:54that cost 50 bucks because they have chips in the connectors and it makes the connectors
0:55:57really long and like one inch long stiff part that can't bend because that's where the chip
0:56:01is and they actually get warm when you use them. They have a standard for passive wires.
0:56:05It only goes half the speed, 20 gigabits instead of 40, although that half speed, that's the
0:56:09maximum speed of the current Thunderbolt 2, isn't it? 20?
0:56:12I'll take that. Right. So basically for the current speed that
0:56:16you have now, you can get cheap, flexible wires that don't heat up when you use them
0:56:22with no chips in them, and you get 20 gigabits. And so that's great. This is the fastest turnaround
0:56:28time I've ever seen on a interconnect standard learning from all the mistakes
0:56:32the previous iteration of this interconnect standard made because first
0:56:35of all Thunderbolt's already up to version 3 and it's like barely used and
0:56:38only used on Apple computers and it is already like correcting all of its past
0:56:42mistakes. Better connector, piggybacking on USB, a passive thing for people who
0:56:46don't care while still pushing the envelope of like actually we have double
0:56:52that speed if you're going to use the chip connector things or whatever so I'm
0:56:55I'm really excited about next year's crop of Macs,
0:56:58one of which I may actually buy
0:57:00if my 2008 Mac Pro lasts that long.
0:57:04- You know, I wonder,
0:57:06because they're attaching Thunderbolt to USB,
0:57:11and we know that Apple is very unlikely,
0:57:14extremely unlikely, to ship a computer where like,
0:57:18these ports are USB 3, but these ports are USB 2,
0:57:21like they're just gonna go all out on one or the other.
0:57:23Thunderbolt requires direct PCI lanes
0:57:27right from the chipset, and it's most likely,
0:57:31I would imagine, I don't know offhand,
0:57:32but I would imagine it's much more expensive
0:57:34to have a Thunderbolt port on a motherboard,
0:57:36on a computer than a USB port.
0:57:38It might not be possible to have more than two USB-C ports
0:57:44on anything but a Mac Pro,
0:57:46just because of the chipset limitations.
0:57:47So, look at the iMacs today.
0:57:50iMacs have four USB ports in the back.
0:57:52Are they gonna have four USB-C ports on the next version?
0:57:55I kinda doubt it, because I would doubt
0:57:59that whatever chipsets Intel uses
0:58:00for the consumer level stuff,
0:58:02they might not support that many lanes
0:58:03for Thunderbolt to use.
0:58:05- I think they listed the chipsets.
0:58:06Like they were gonna make one super low power one.
0:58:08This is a lot of people writing in
0:58:09to explain the MacBook One,
0:58:10although it doesn't really make sense
0:58:12because the MacBook One doesn't use Thunderbolt 3.
0:58:13But anyway, they're gonna have one low power chipset
0:58:15that can only support one of these ports, right?
0:58:18The whole idea is like, we're only gonna support one,
0:58:20but it is a true Thunderbolt 3 port
0:58:21It does everything on, you know, it's for the MacBook One,
0:58:24it's a classic machine, and it really only does support one.
0:58:26So yeah, you could have a second one that, like you said,
0:58:28is, well, this one isn't Thunderbolt.
0:58:30I know it looks the same, but this one is actually
0:58:31just plain old USB.
0:58:33They didn't have, with the current MacBook One,
0:58:36they didn't have that problem.
0:58:37You could have made them both identical,
0:58:38but with the new one, with Thunderbolt 3,
0:58:39you can have one Thunderbolt 3 port with this chipset,
0:58:42because that's all we have the lanes for,
0:58:43and then you can have other, like, plain USB ports,
0:58:45which Apple may or may not do.
0:58:47But then the next step up,
0:58:48with the sort of better laptop things,
0:58:50I think it was like,
0:58:52now you can have two Thunderbolt 3 ports.
0:58:55- Do you know if that will qualify for the MacBook Air?
0:58:57- The MacBook what?
0:58:59(laughing)
0:59:00I like it.
0:59:01Do we think that this machine is still gonna be a thing?
0:59:03Not without a retina screen.
0:59:05I don't see that living.
0:59:05I don't see a 26 new iteration of the MacBook Air
0:59:08coming in 2016 unless they put a retina screen in it.
0:59:10And I'm not entirely convinced they're gonna do that yet.
0:59:13But yeah, and so you're right.
0:59:16They will be faced with this problem,
0:59:17especially for the iMac.
0:59:18'Cause the iMac, you don't have the excuse of like,
0:59:19Well, because the iMac you could just basically put an internal hub inside there and have
0:59:23one of the Thunderbolt 3 things branching out into basically an internal USB hub and
0:59:28then you have one, I mean they're still faced with the same problem.
0:59:30You're gonna have a bunch of connectors that are all shaped the same, one of which has
0:59:33a little different symbol painted on it and tiny paint that no one can actually read because
0:59:36it's behind the computer and nobody can see back there because it's dark, right?
0:59:39But if you swivel it towards you it'll light up.
0:59:41Oh god.
0:59:42Yeah, well not on the Mac Pro, the iMac, right?
0:59:45They have plenty of room, they have plenty of room inside the iMac to have five ports
0:59:49on the back of it. One of them is going to be like the good port, like the Thunderbolt
0:59:53port and all the rest of them are going to be these are just plain old USB. And they
0:59:56can do that with a quote unquote two port chipset from Intel, right? Or just like I
1:00:01said, they could have two Thunderbolt three ports and then five USB, but not that Apple
1:00:07would ever do this because they're so stingy with ports, but then five USB ports just running
1:00:10off of like a plain old USB three control. Like they technologically, this is all possible
1:00:14and all it comes down to is the confusion factor. And on the back of the iMac, I think
1:00:18if you separated them, even though they're the same shape, if you separated them from
1:00:21each other, like if you had a bunch in a row and then a big space on the other ones, or
1:00:25even put them on separate sides of the machine, I don't know. I feel like if I had to make
1:00:29the choice, I would rather have more ports, even if some of them are only differentiated
1:00:33by a stenciled symbol like laser etched onto the aluminum. That's what I would want, but
1:00:37I'm not entirely sure that that's what Apple is going to want. I would imagine Apple is
1:00:41going to put a smaller number of ports on it and just, you know, deal with the short-term
1:00:47griping. Oh yeah, I mean if you want a lot of ports of various mixing and matching
1:00:52of things you're definitely looking at the wrong brand of computers. And the Mac Pro,
1:00:55you know, they'll do use whatever crazy chipset that has the most insane
1:01:00number of PCI Express lanes and they'll put as many ports on the back of that
1:01:03thing as they can and that'll just continue in its current form but the
1:01:07shape and size of the ports in the back will shrink. Who knows, maybe they could
1:01:10even add ports to that thing. On the Mac Pro that is the only model I can actually
1:01:13imagine them saying, "These are all Thunderbolt 3 ports, blank space, these two are plain
1:01:19old USB-C, connect your mouse and keyboard here."
1:01:22Because why the hell not?
1:01:23Like they're all so tiny, there's so much stuff inside that computer, it wouldn't be
1:01:27a big deal to do that.
1:01:29And it would free up like the good ports for your crazy multi-SSD disk arrays or whatever
1:01:34the hell you're connecting to it.
1:01:36And you still won't buy one.
1:01:37I might, you know, I've got to buy a new computer eventually in theory.
1:01:41On an infinite time scale.
1:01:42- Oh God. - I don't know.
1:01:44That one terabyte SSD really did give this Mac new life.
1:01:48I do not, when I sit down in front of this computer now,
1:01:50the only thing I notice is that, you know,
1:01:52my wife's screen is better than mine.
1:01:53But other than that, it feels great.
1:01:55- I suspect you're gonna keep using it
1:01:57until it drops OS support for the latest OS.
1:02:00- That would probably do it.
1:02:02I'm kind of glad that I've just been under the wire
1:02:05for the few updates and they haven't even been
1:02:07advancing that.
1:02:08The last few OSes have all not changed
1:02:10the hardware requirements.
1:02:11- Yeah, they cut off Merlin's old Mac Pro
1:02:13and then just stopped cutting off old Mac Pros.
1:02:14- That's right, that was the last one in the door
1:02:16and then it's like, that's it.
1:02:18Everything else is 64-bit Intel, you're good to go.
1:02:20- Exactly.
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1:02:40at their website, warryparker.com/atp.
1:02:42This is the same people as Harry's, right?
1:02:45Or at least one of the same founders?
1:02:46- I think that's right.
1:02:47- Yeah, there's a lot in common here.
1:02:50Disrupting an old industry that's overpriced and awful
1:02:53with high quality stuff sold very reasonably online
1:02:57at a very good price.
1:02:58Warry Parker, we have some of their glasses here.
1:03:00We love them, you guys have them.
1:03:02They're very, very good glasses.
1:03:04They're very fashionable.
1:03:05These are designs that are vintage inspired
1:03:08with a contemporary twist.
1:03:10Every pair is custom fit, they all have anti-reflective,
1:03:13anti-glare polycarbonate lenses,
1:03:15and every pair comes with a very, very nice
1:03:17hard case and cleaning cloth.
1:03:19So there's no like, you know, weird overpriced accessories
1:03:22you have to buy with them, they all come with these
1:03:24really nice cases and cloths.
1:03:26They also now offer progressive lenses,
1:03:28starting at just $295 including those frames.
1:03:31So progressive lenses have a distance prescription at the top
1:03:33and they transition to a reading lens near the bottom.
1:03:35This is like in the olden days, people would use bifocals
1:03:38to do this kind of thing.
1:03:39things are way better and you have progressive lenses. It's a nice smooth transition.
1:03:43Warby Parker's progressives are digital freeform lenses. It's the most advanced
1:03:47progressive technology on the market today with higher precision and a larger field of vision
1:03:51than traditional progressive lenses. Now, buying glasses online sounds
1:03:55like it would be risky because you know, you gotta know how does it fit on your face?
1:03:59How does it, how do they look on you? Warby Parker has you covered
1:04:03there. So first of all, their website has a very, very good set of tools that
1:04:07that you can use your computer's webcam
1:04:09and they'll help you estimate and measure your face,
1:04:12measure your eye distance and your face shape, et cetera,
1:04:15to get the fit exactly right.
1:04:17And the best thing, and we actually did this with my wife,
1:04:19and it was extremely close to her actual measurements
1:04:23once we got them.
1:04:24And they know that you're gonna wanna actually
1:04:27try these things on in your house.
1:04:28You're gonna actually want to see them on you,
1:04:31have your spouse or significant other see them on you,
1:04:34and be able to see them and kinda live with them
1:04:36for a day or two.
1:04:37So they have the home try-on program.
1:04:40You can borrow up to five pairs of frames risk-free.
1:04:43They ship them to you for free.
1:04:45You can try them on in the comfort of your own home for up to five days, and then you
1:04:49send them back with a prepaid free return label.
1:04:53There's no obligation to buy after that either.
1:04:55So you can just go to warbyparker.com/atp, browse around, pick out five frames that you
1:05:00think you might want, and then just borrow them, and they will ship them to you, again,
1:05:04for free.
1:05:05there, try them on for five days, free shipping back, no obligation to buy anything. If you
1:05:10do decide to buy it though, it's great. They also offer prescription and non-prescription
1:05:15sunglasses and these are polarized sunglasses. I love polarized sunglasses. And they do a
1:05:20lot of good stuff too. They also believe in giving back to the world. So for every pair
1:05:24of glasses Warby Parker sells, they donate another pair to somebody in need through various
1:05:28vision charities around the world. So go to warbyparker.com/atp and check out their great
1:05:35selection of premium quality affordable eyewear. Go get a home try-on kit risk-free. Give it
1:05:41a try, you won't be disappointed. Thank you very much to Warby Parker for sponsoring our
1:05:44show once again.
1:05:46Excellent. So is anything going on next week?
1:05:49From the late breaking rumors, it seems like a lot less is going on than we thought.
1:05:52You want to tell us what you're talking about there, Jon?
1:05:56Well, I always list that this is the WOC prediction section and have this list of like the hardware
1:06:00and software and things we're going to talk about and the late breaking story from the
1:06:03York Times is what seems like the final in a series of stories about the ever-rumored
1:06:09Apple TV replacement that was like, "Oh, it has a new remote.
1:06:13It's coming.
1:06:14It's going to have an SDK.
1:06:15Apple is working with companies to provide a way for you to watch first-run shows by
1:06:20paying them money.
1:06:21Like the Apple TV dream is going to come true for everyone except for Gene Munster because
1:06:25it's not an actual television set."
1:06:27And then the final one, posted in the New York Times shortly before recording began,
1:06:31was, "Oh, looks like Apple TV,
1:06:33the new Apple TV is not gonna be a WDC after all."
1:06:35This follows on the previous story, which was like,
1:06:38"Hmm, looks like Apple's having trouble
1:06:39setting up all those content deals that it wants to set up."
1:06:42And they were like, "Well, even without the content deals,
1:06:44they can release new hardware.
1:06:47Still, the new remote might be cool
1:06:49and they can always release the hardware now
1:06:51and then later on when they finally get all these deals
1:06:53ironed out with all these content owners,
1:06:55then your hardware that you have would get better."
1:06:58But if this rumor is to be believed,
1:07:00no new Apple TV hardware, no Apple TV SDK,
1:07:04off the menu for WWDC.
1:07:05Again, it seems like the past three years
1:07:08that the Apple TV has been like, I don't know, they could,
1:07:11the current one is really old.
1:07:13And well, like this one was like,
1:07:14oh, they did a price drop on the old one.
1:07:16That means a new one is coming
1:07:17and we were all ready for it and no.
1:07:19And so I obviously entirely pessimistically believe
1:07:22these rumors that there will be no Apple TV.
1:07:24I hope I'm wrong and I'm really excited
1:07:26pleasantly surprised because my current Apple TV is flaking out big time and I've switched
1:07:31to using TiVo for Netflix. That's how far it's gone. So yeah, what do you guys think
1:07:35about that? Are you basically crossing off the Apple TV in your hearts?
1:07:38Well, I had already kind of done that because at the recommendation of Dan Morin, and I
1:07:45think we talked about this on the show, I got an Amazon Fire TV stick and I love it.
1:07:50It is the first thing I turn to to do any sort of media consumption when I'm trying
1:07:55to do that at home or when I'm traveling, if I choose to take it with me. It has been
1:08:00far more reliable than my Apple TV has been. It works really, really well. Netflix is great
1:08:07on it. Plex actually exists on it, which is wonderful, and that works really well. So
1:08:13I rarely use my Apple TV anymore, but the only thing I use it for is for AirPlay, like
1:08:19we were talking about earlier. And even then, in a pinch, I can do that using a really hacky
1:08:26third-party app on the Fire TV stick. So I would love to see a new Apple TV and see what
1:08:32they're going to do with it, but I don't know. I went from loving my Apple TV to kind of
1:08:38not really caring about it in the span of about a year. Now, maybe this is all DiscoveryD
1:08:42issues masquer- or, you know, this is DiscoveryD issues causing me to hate it, and it's really
1:08:47not the Apple TV at all, but one way or another,
1:08:51I just haven't really cared about the Apple TV in a while.
1:08:53Now Marco, you had just posted something recently
1:08:55about yours not working for the 8 millionth time,
1:08:57is that right?
1:08:59- First of all, it's hilarious that now
1:09:01we are all Gene Munster-ing Apple.
1:09:04Now everyone's like, "Oh, when are you gonna do
1:09:05"the Apple TV?"
1:09:06It's a slight variation, but it's pretty much
1:09:08the same thing.
1:09:09Second of all, I think it's hilarious that
1:09:11the A5 just won't die.
1:09:13Like, it's an, the A5, how this chip that was released
1:09:17in 2011 is now still in the non-retina iPad Mini,
1:09:21which is still for sale, the current generation
1:09:26of iPod Touch, which is still for sale,
1:09:29the current generation of the Apple TV,
1:09:31which is now also still for sale,
1:09:34the A5, and we don't even know what the watch is,
1:09:36maybe the watch is using an A5.
1:09:38This chip will not die, and developers keep having
1:09:41to support it forever.
1:09:42But anyway, and I think that's probably, honestly,
1:09:46there's no Apple TV.
1:09:48I think the A5 became sentient and took over at Apple
1:09:53and has some dirt on Tim or something
1:09:55and is just holding the company hostage now.
1:09:58That's why there's no new Apple TV.
1:09:59- Of all the things that are wrong
1:10:01with the current Apple TV puck,
1:10:03the incredibly weak CPU is actually, I think,
1:10:07not one of them because it's obviously strong enough
1:10:09to handle full resolution HD video,
1:10:11which is basically what's expected
1:10:12of a puck-like device at this point.
1:10:16And everything we complain about is bugs.
1:10:19It's not like, oh, everything is slow
1:10:21because the CPU is slow.
1:10:22The responsiveness is okay as far as
1:10:25set-top boxes go when things work.
1:10:28And so we desperately do need a new puck.
1:10:31And the reason, you say, oh, we're gene-munstering
1:10:35Tim Cook on this 'cause he keeps saying,
1:10:36where is the Apple TV?
1:10:37But it's not us doing that.
1:10:38It's Tim Cook and Apple speaking with the corporate voice
1:10:41saying, we still believe in TV, we're interested in TV.
1:10:45They're not just like not saying anything
1:10:46and then it's just left us to figure out
1:10:48that the iPod touch isn't coming back or whatever.
1:10:49Like they keep talking about TV
1:10:51and like how they're still pursuing that
1:10:54and they think there's a,
1:10:55it's a venue for possible future disruption
1:10:59and advancement and whatever that like,
1:11:00they keep talking about it.
1:11:01So if you keep talking about it
1:11:02and you drop the price on your system,
1:11:03it's like, all right, so what are you talking about?
1:11:05Are you talking about the stupid $79 puck
1:11:06that we all hate now because it's buggy and old
1:11:08and slow and getting worse with time instead of better
1:11:10and messing up our networks
1:11:12because of Discovery D or whatever?
1:11:14They have to do something.
1:11:17They're sending mixed messages here.
1:11:19And one of the messages we really care about television
1:11:22and we're interested in the future television
1:11:23and the other message is what they're actually doing
1:11:26which is just keeping the same product around
1:11:29way past its prime and the only thing they've done
1:11:31is drop the price.
1:11:32- Well, I think it's very clear that they are,
1:11:36there's so much smoke around this.
1:11:39They are definitely working on some kind of major update
1:11:42to it, but it's just not done yet.
1:11:44You know, that's very clear.
1:11:46And whether this was like a last minute slip,
1:11:49or whether everyone was mis-predicting the launch before,
1:11:51I mean--
1:11:52- Or it could come out, like, yeah,
1:11:54this is just a rumor, but it seems like
1:11:56we're all writing it off.
1:11:56It seems like we're saying,
1:11:57we believe the New York Times story,
1:11:59now we are completely prepared for there to be no Apple TV.
1:12:02- Well, it has everything about a controlled leak
1:12:05written all over it.
1:12:06Like, this sure looks like Apple PR,
1:12:08this is a controlled leak, no question.
1:12:10So, you know, I believe that it's been kicked out
1:12:14of the keynote, whether it was there or not
1:12:16in the first place, we don't know whether this is setting
1:12:17expectations based on new information or just tamping down
1:12:22rumors that have gotten out of hand
1:12:23and would disappoint people, who knows, doesn't matter.
1:12:26The fact is, I believe these things to say
1:12:28it's not gonna be there.
1:12:30Anyway, there's nothing saying that they have to release
1:12:33this at WWDC, like everyone always assumes
1:12:37that Apple has to release new platforms at WWDC
1:12:41that will have SDKs so that developers can get started on them
1:12:43and that's simply not the case.
1:12:45Look at the watch.
1:12:46The watch was an entirely new platform
1:12:47that has now many apps for it.
1:12:51The watch has not seen WWDC yet.
1:12:53It's about to, but the entire watch kit SDK was launched
1:12:59last November with no event, well with the watch event,
1:13:02but no developer event, no developer gatherings
1:13:07any sort, because the fact is, WBCC holds about 5,000 people, and there's hundreds of
1:13:13thousands of Apple developers. So, they can never satisfy everybody at these events, so
1:13:18they have to do things online, they have to have these different systems and everything.
1:13:22So, they can launch an Apple TV with an SDK whenever they want. They don't have to do
1:13:27it next week. So, if something has slipped where it's not quite ideal timing for PR reasons,
1:13:33like they're gonna want to ship this device along with a really compelling customer story,
1:13:40a really compelling reason why people want to buy it besides, "Hey, we made a different
1:13:44box. It runs the same crappy software that you're used to."
1:13:48Do you always need that reason though? Because they release new Mac hardware without a new
1:13:55OS or any new capabilities. This is what happens if you neglect your products and just say,
1:14:01well, the Apple TV have is fine.
1:14:03Like there's something to be said for,
1:14:05yes, just coming out with the new box
1:14:07with a faster CPU and GPU,
1:14:10with lower power, less heat, smaller size,
1:14:14like just basic hardware advancement.
1:14:17I'm not saying you gotta do that every year
1:14:18for the Apple TV,
1:14:19'cause it's not maybe an every year kind of product,
1:14:20but every once in a while, that type of change,
1:14:24you can't put that off wherever.
1:14:25I understand that like, oh, we wanna have content deals,
1:14:27we wanna have a new remote, we wanna have an SDK.
1:14:30Like there's all these things that we see for the future of our little baby Apple TV
1:14:33But if those things keep getting delayed for whatever reason that's fine
1:14:37But in the meantime, it's okay just to do a hardware update and they did when they bumped it to 1080p
1:14:42But then they just said that's it. We're like it's like now they're being stubborn
1:14:46We're not going to touch anything until we have everything to show you especially if this rumor is true that like
1:14:51You know the content deals were falling through it and I can imagine someone going well
1:14:56Why would we bother releasing that's not like our headline feature like the SDK fine, whatever but our headline feature is hey
1:15:02now you can be a cord cutter and you can actually use this to watch like quote unquote real TV and
1:15:06It seems like they're saving it all up to say, you know, imagine they did it with the watch
1:15:10Imagine if they said you know what we are not launching this without pulse ox, right and the FDA thing is holding it up fine
1:15:16We're just not gonna go we'll delay it for another year
1:15:18they didn't do that with the watch because it's seen as a much more important product and there was no existing one and
1:15:23At this point the Apple TV is so long in the tooth that I just wish they would
1:15:27You know
1:15:28They don't have to pull a MacBook one and release something that might be weird and awkward and they really they replace it but like
1:15:32Release the hardware that you know will work for your future software plans and at this point that hardware must exist
1:15:39and
1:15:40If the software is not ready for it
1:15:42Like they should have if they had a contingency plan
1:15:44Like let's just let ship the new hardware with the old software and yeah now it'll have a Showtime thing that you can pay
1:15:48$11 a month and get Showtime just like you can with HBO go HBO now or whatever
1:15:53That's still an okay product.
1:15:55Keep selling the $79 one, sell this one for,
1:15:58so hell, sell this one for 149 or something.
1:16:00Maybe you don't sell a lot of them,
1:16:01but eventually you'll have a selling proposition
1:16:03where you can say, oh, if you have the new Apple TV,
1:16:06you can get all these amazing features
1:16:08and these new content deals and whatever.
1:16:11I don't know, I'm just getting frustrated with the Apple TV,
1:16:13both my specific hardware product
1:16:15that I'm slowly using less and less,
1:16:17and the fact that Apple won't put out a new one.
1:16:18And the reason for that,
1:16:19and this gets into a question I have for Casey,
1:16:21is I have a lot of stuff that I bought on iTunes.
1:16:24Why do I buy them on iTunes?
1:16:25I guess because it's really easy.
1:16:27I just go and press the button
1:16:28and the kids are watching a movie.
1:16:30But now, you know, we all know this.
1:16:32The best of us know it, but we still do it anyway.
1:16:35Didn't you know you were buying things
1:16:36you could only watch on Apple devices?
1:16:37Yes, I knew, but I always assumed
1:16:39there would be some passable Apple device
1:16:40that I could use to watch it.
1:16:41So now, why do I go to the Apple TV?
1:16:43Because the kids wanna watch a movie
1:16:45that we have purchased from iTunes.
1:16:46So Casey, do you have a lot of iTunes purchases?
1:16:49I guess not if you're abandoning it entirely
1:16:51the Amazon thing. I have a fair bit of iTunes music purchases, but those were already abandoned
1:16:57in favor of Spotify. I know for some people that works, for some people that doesn't,
1:17:00but that's what I've done. I don't know that I've ever purchased a movie on iTunes. I do have a
1:17:06couple of ultraviolet movies, so I've gotten the Blu-ray and that comes with a digital copy,
1:17:14and you can typically redeem that in one of several proprietary systems, and I've redeemed
1:17:19that copy within iTunes. But generally speaking, I will, if I'm buying a movie or if I want a movie
1:17:27for like my birthday or something, generally speaking, what I'll do is I'll ask for it on
1:17:31Blu-ray. And then I will rip it and stick it on my NAS using Don Melton scripts in order to get it so
1:17:40that it's accessible without the disk. Though if I were to sit down and watch a movie, just like
1:17:46like Aaron and I, for example,
1:17:48I would put in the Blu-ray if I have it available,
1:17:50which I know makes me weird in a lot of ways.
1:17:52- As your bouncing baby boy gets bigger,
1:17:54I can imagine you will find yourself
1:17:56in a similar situation to most parents,
1:17:58which is kids wanna watch a movie,
1:18:00you're sure as hell not gonna order a DVD,
1:18:02get it, rip it to Plex, and have them watch it later.
1:18:04You're going to pull up whatever you need to pull up
1:18:07to buy the movie now and start watching it.
1:18:08And maybe for you, that will be your Amazon, whatever,
1:18:11a Fire TV stick, like that Apple,
1:18:14that your impulse purchases of movies
1:18:16that you're not interested enough in to watch on Blu-ray,
1:18:18but that you want your kid to see
1:18:19and want to be always available,
1:18:21you'll buy them on the stick
1:18:22rather than buying them on the Apple TV.
1:18:24But for us, we've already bought a ton of them on Apple TV
1:18:27and I imagine Marco has too, like, you know, kids movies.
1:18:30- Oh yeah, the vast majority of movies that we own
1:18:33through iTunes are Pixar movies.
1:18:34- Those are important enough to me
1:18:35that I get the fancy Blu-rays for,
1:18:37but I'm just talking about like other random stuff
1:18:39or even movies for myself, like, I don't know,
1:18:42just like a Marvel movie that I'm not that into,
1:18:44but I wanna see it.
1:18:45I'll just go and buy it on iTunes.
1:18:47And I've even done iTunes rentals,
1:18:49which I thought I would never do,
1:18:50because they're so expensive.
1:18:51And I was like, look, if you think the movie's
1:18:52important enough to rent, like, and I have Netflix,
1:18:54like why are you renting a movie from iTunes?
1:18:55It's just, we're so incredibly lazy
1:18:58that you don't want to wait for a disc to arrive.
1:19:00And if it's not available on streaming,
1:19:02you're just gonna be like, you know what?
1:19:03Let me just rent it on iTunes.
1:19:04It's $3.99 for two people to watch a movie.
1:19:06It's way cheaper than going to the movies.
1:19:08It's fine.
1:19:09And then at this point, we're never just buying them,
1:19:10because if you rent it, you rent it once,
1:19:12and then the kids want to see it,
1:19:13it because it's a family movie, then you rent it twice, you should have just bought it anyway.
1:19:16So I don't know. Anyway, the point is all of my movies are trapped in the iTunes ecosystem,
1:19:20so I desperately want Apple to at least maintain some sort of confidence and update their hardware
1:19:25so I can continue to watch the movies that I paid for. Because unlike music, they haven't
1:19:28gone DRM-free, so I can't sort of take them out of their cage and put them someplace else.
1:19:33Well, to put it in perspective, just a few days ago, I decided to buy the movie Sneakers
1:19:38from the early 90s, and it did not even cross my mind
1:19:42to look on iTunes.
1:19:43I immediately went to Amazon, found a Blu-ray,
1:19:45and shipped it to myself.
1:19:46That was the first thing I did.
1:19:47I didn't even consider doing anything else.
1:19:49- Well, you should get sneakers and Blu-ray,
1:19:50'cause that's an important movie.
1:19:51- I agree, it's a wonderful movie.
1:19:53- That Marco hasn't seen or probably ever heard of.
1:19:55- Yeah, exactly.
1:19:56- I've heard of it.
1:19:57I don't know if I've seen it, or I might have seen it,
1:20:00like back when it was current, I might have seen it.
1:20:04- It's a great, great movie.
1:20:05Have you seen War Games, Marco?
1:20:06- Yes.
1:20:08- Okay, you're not completely without hope then,
1:20:10says pot to kettle.
1:20:11- No, most of the movies I haven't seen
1:20:14came out like after 2002.
1:20:16- Oh, this was '92, so you don't really have any excuses.
1:20:19- Right, exactly.
1:20:20Yeah, '90s I have covered pretty well.
1:20:23- Yeah, good deal.
1:20:24What else do we think is happening at WWDC?
1:20:27What are we getting on the watch?
1:20:28Are we getting third party complications?
1:20:31I say no way.
1:20:32- There have been a couple of rumors that said yes.
1:20:34I don't know.
1:20:36Right now, I made my big post last week about,
1:20:39I have so many questions about the Apple Watch Native SDK.
1:20:43We know that we're getting it, that's been confirmed.
1:20:46So we know that we are getting the Native Watch SDK.
1:20:48We don't know how limited it will be,
1:20:51what it will and won't be able to do,
1:20:53what it will and won't be allowed to do by policy.
1:20:56There are so many questions on that,
1:20:59that all we can say is we're getting a Native SDK.
1:21:03But I have no idea, from my point of view,
1:21:05whether an overcast app will be possible,
1:21:08whether it will not suck.
1:21:10You know, like I have, whether it's possible
1:21:12to make one that doesn't suck, I have no idea.
1:21:15So I'm looking forward to it.
1:21:16It's very impressive.
1:21:17To me, it sounds like a very aggressive timing
1:21:20to have this already so soon after the launch of the watch.
1:21:23But hey, if they can do it, great.
1:21:26- Is it kind of weird that they pre-announced the SDK?
1:21:29Like, I mean, I'm trying to think of why bother
1:21:32pre-announcing it?
1:21:33Like we all kind of expected it was coming,
1:21:34but why not just save the surprise?
1:21:35Like is it so pressing that there was pressure on them
1:21:38to have to say, no, seriously, it's coming.
1:21:39'Cause they told us it was coming.
1:21:41They said like, this is what you have now.
1:21:43You have watched it, native SDK in the future.
1:21:45They could have just said,
1:21:47and that could have been the last you heard from it.
1:21:48And then we all would have assumed it said WWDC.
1:21:50It would have been at WWDC.
1:21:52Would it have been slightly more exciting
1:21:53for them not to have confirmed shortly before WWDC?
1:21:57Oh, by the way, remember when we said,
1:21:58well, have the SDK in the future?
1:21:59Well, the future is WWDC.
1:22:00That's exactly when you're gonna see it.
1:22:01Why bother spoiling that minor surprise?
1:22:05- Yeah, sure, but maybe when they decided
1:22:08to say that publicly, which is what, about a week ago,
1:22:12when they decided, maybe that's also when they decided
1:22:14the Apple TV wasn't gonna make the cut,
1:22:16or maybe they, I hope they knew by then
1:22:19whether the Apple TV wasn't going to make the cut,
1:22:21and so maybe this is kind of a two-stage PR management move
1:22:25where you're trying to give people good news first
1:22:29so then the bad news doesn't sting as badly, I don't know.
1:22:31But that's just a guess.
1:22:33- I don't think it matters one way or the other.
1:22:34It's just, it's like a difference of, you know, it used to be that Apple would keep
1:22:37every possible secret it could, even when everybody knew, like it's so obvious they
1:22:41were going to do something, they wouldn't say anything.
1:22:43I mean, and speaking of obvious, iOS 9 and a new version of OS X, everyone I guess assumes
1:22:49that the OS updates will exist.
1:22:51Apple hasn't announced, maybe they probably have, like come see what's new in the next
1:22:56version of iOS, that's probably in the WOEC literature somewhere, I didn't even bother
1:22:59looking but that's kind of an assumption based on their yearly schedules.
1:23:03They won't tell you what they're gonna be called,
1:23:04their names, there's still a little bit of surprise there,
1:23:07but I assume we all agree that those two things,
1:23:09do we think either one of those things
1:23:11are going off a yearly schedule,
1:23:12or do we just assume there will be
1:23:13new major versions of both of those?
1:23:15- They'll be there. - Yeah.
1:23:17All right, so now what's in them?
1:23:19Let's start with iOS 9.
1:23:20What characterizes iOS 9?
1:23:23- That's a tough thing.
1:23:25I don't know of any low-hanging fruit
1:23:30that I really, really, really want to see changed.
1:23:34For the like of me, I can't think of anything
1:23:37that irks me on a regular basis.
1:23:39And a lot of people have been calling for,
1:23:42you know, taking watch-style complications
1:23:45and putting them on the lock screen
1:23:46or even potentially putting them in springboard.
1:23:49And I don't know, maybe that's one of those things
1:23:51that once it arrives, I'll be like,
1:23:52"Oh yes, I can't imagine not having this anymore."
1:23:55But I don't really feel like I want any of that stuff.
1:23:59And so to me, I just feel like I want everything to be a little less buggy and a little more
1:24:06reliable.
1:24:07And I don't know if I mean iOS specifically, I don't know if I mean iCloud since I've been
1:24:11burned by that over the last few days, but I would just love to see a slowed down release.
1:24:17And I think that's what we're going to get.
1:24:19I think we're going to get less whiz-bang features than we do, generally speaking, but
1:24:25we'll still get a handful.
1:24:27But I think that there will be a public,
1:24:30admission isn't the word I'm looking for,
1:24:32but a public statement that this is about
1:24:35tuning things up and cleaning things out.
1:24:37I don't know, what do you think, Marco?
1:24:39- I'm mostly with you.
1:24:40I do think that there's a lot of stuff they could do
1:24:44to improve things user-facing that wouldn't be
1:24:49totally out of the blue.
1:24:49Like, last year they introduced
1:24:51this amazing extension system.
1:24:53There are still a few places where extensions
1:24:55could be useful and welcome.
1:24:56So possibly new extension points, possibly enhancement
1:25:01to existing extension points, things that you can extend
1:25:04from, and some small seeming but very helpful things
1:25:08such as apps being able to launch specific extensions
1:25:14from specific people, that would be nice.
1:25:16Or one of the big ones, mail app supporting extensions,
1:25:20that would be nice 'cause it's kind of weird
1:25:22and really annoying that it doesn't.
1:25:25So if the Apple Mail app could launch extensions,
1:25:27that would be amazing.
1:25:29So there's stuff like that.
1:25:30There's a lot of enhancements to things
1:25:33we already have generally, but they can make them better
1:25:35or they can expand them.
1:25:37Lots of that stuff is what I'm looking for,
1:25:39what I'm hoping for, in addition to the refinement.
1:25:43I mean, if you just look at what we're seeing
1:25:46over the last few days with the 10.10.4 beta
1:25:50replacing DiscoveryD with the old mDNS responder,
1:25:54that I think, based on what I've read
1:25:58and the research I've done
1:25:59and what everyone else has been saying,
1:26:01I think that replacing Discovery D
1:26:04with the old reliable MDNS responder
1:26:07is going to solve more than half of the issues
1:26:10I face every day with Apple products.
1:26:13- Yeah, I agree.
1:26:15I never really got as bugged by it
1:26:18as like you and Chalkenberry did.
1:26:20I mean, I certainly had, you know,
1:26:21KCLS MacBook Pro one, two, three, four.
1:26:25But it seemed to me that a lot of the issues
1:26:28that you guys had, like you had said, Marco,
1:26:30about your printer was constantly having issues.
1:26:33I don't have a fancy printer,
1:26:34so I never ran into any of that sort of thing.
1:26:36But just my gut, and maybe it's because
1:26:39I've just listened to everyone talk about it all the time,
1:26:41but my gut tells me that some of these things
1:26:43that I can't really attribute what they're for,
1:26:45like Apple TV wonkiness, it's very rare
1:26:48that I can get my Apple TV to kick on
1:26:51when I try to AirPlay to it.
1:26:53I have to go over to it and turn it on.
1:26:55And then half the time when I turn it on,
1:26:57the darn thing won't be visible in my AirPlay devices.
1:27:01I'm starting to wonder if a lot of these little
1:27:03kooky, weird things that are starting to drive me up a wall
1:27:06are DiscoveryD and MDNS responder issues.
1:27:09- Yeah, I don't know how widespread these problems are
1:27:12because from what I've seen from all the reports on them,
1:27:14the nature of the problems that makes them
1:27:16so incredibly maddening is that they're sort of like a poisoning of your environment.
1:27:21A lot of the fixes are like, look, unplug your Apple TV, turn off your router, shut
1:27:26everything down, and then start them up in this order.
1:27:30Because if you don't, a feature of the new Discovery Do You Thing or whatever are existing
1:27:35features of the various Apple devices, they will hang on to mappings between Mac addresses
1:27:39and names and other stuff.
1:27:41They will keep that information even when the machines from which that information originated
1:27:45are turned off. So merely restarting your Mac doesn't fix it because there's your Apple TV
1:27:49off in the corner that you forgot about that's holding on to those poisoned addresses and forcing
1:27:53your Mac to pick a different number or whatever. Like I don't understand the details of it, but a
1:27:57lot of the analyses I've read have pointed to a sort of distributed problem where it's not just
1:28:02a local problem on your machine where some software that's behaving badly, it's that bad
1:28:06information spreads across your network and if you don't sort of flush it out in the most heinous way
1:28:11possible you're screwed and that even if you do flush it out it could still come back or
1:28:16whatever so those problems are incredibly frustrating but it also means that I think
1:28:20there are a lot of people myself included who have never had any of these problems at
1:28:24all because the poison has not seeped into our network for whatever reason.
1:28:29I remember when I had the loaner Macbook at WWDC last year with the Yosemite on it I immediately
1:28:35saw the two, three, four numbers going up just from using that computer machine alone
1:28:41by itself at WWDC, seeing my number increase.
1:28:43And I'm like, oh, well, that's a bug, right?
1:28:46But when I got everything home on my home network, everything just seemed to work.
1:28:51And with Yosemite, my entire usage of Yosemite, I haven't had any Wi-Fi problems.
1:28:55I haven't had any printing problems.
1:28:57I haven't had any networking problems.
1:29:00I have seen the numbers every once in a while, but they've never gone over two or something.
1:29:05So I don't know, again, this is the nature of the problem.
1:29:09This is definitely a problem and it's the worst kind of problem because the people who
1:29:11have it, it's like, I don't know, like an infestation of insects or something.
1:29:15You gotta just burn the house down and then rebuild a new house and even then they might
1:29:18come back.
1:29:19So yeah, this seems like a big misstep and it's a shame because this type of move, like
1:29:26why replace mDNS responder with discovery?
1:29:28Well anyone who has spent a long time with OS X remembers the complaints about mDNS responder
1:29:33being flaky and having to kill it and installing old versions of MDNSResponder because the
1:29:37old version was better than the new version.
1:29:39That was a thing in many years past, that MDNSResponder was a source of all sorts of
1:29:44bugs and stuff or whatever.
1:29:45And eventually it shakes out, but it's like someone comes in and says, "Look, the reason
1:29:49MDNSResponder was all buggy is because it's actually kind of the wrong design and the
1:29:53features are distributed in the wrong way, and we really need a clean sheet approach
1:29:57here."
1:29:58And then DiscoveryD is their clean sheet approach, it gets a new name, it does different things,
1:30:02it's bugging it's got some terrible bugs that manifest in terrible ways and everybody hates it right and
1:30:06The wrong lesson to take from this is never try to radically change anything ever
1:30:11I think you have to and those are the type of moves from a CoreOS group that I want to see that's why I wrote
1:30:17An entire section about launchd which is a replacement for the init program, which is like old-school Unix
1:30:22How can you replace init? That's like why would you get rid of that? It works perfectly fine
1:30:26It's been around for decades part of FreeBSD and BSD and Unix and everything like you're gonna get rid of init
1:30:31You're gonna replace it with what some weird thing that sort of also does the same thing as crumb
1:30:35But also watches for IO and triggers jobs based on device like I don't even know what you're doing here
1:30:40You're biting off more than you can chew its second system syndrome
1:30:42Launchd is a stupid idea, but I totally applaud launchd
1:30:46That's why I wrote about it, and I think it's great
1:30:48And I think the launchd you know it had a bumpy start
1:30:51But launchd is what's running all your Macs now that is a success discovery D. Not so much a success so I
1:30:59Hope Apple's core OS group or whoever is responsible to discovery D keeps doing things like discovery D because
1:31:06That's what that's what they should be doing. They should not be resting on their laurels
1:31:11They should not accept the Unix underpinnings as they exist
1:31:14They should always be trying to make them something better just you know work on the execution
1:31:18All right, I was gonna say one more thing on OS 9 as in likely this is the release where we you know
1:31:23Focus on stability and make things nice and blah blah
1:31:27You know and like Marco said in addition to doing all the usual stuff like a million bug fixes and all the frameworks and small
1:31:33New features stuff like that. This is kind of not that they did it on purpose this way, but it is it is a beautiful
1:31:39symmetrical
1:31:41PR win for Apple because last year
1:31:43We were all jazzed at WRC like look whole new language crazy new OS all sorts of things that you couldn't do before
1:31:51You know
1:31:53Last year was the keyboards like new keyboards and stuff right that was an extensions like Wow just stars in our eyes
1:31:59Everything we always wanted from Apple. This is great, right and this year, you know
1:32:04After the long year of bugs and weirdness and stuff like that this year everyone is kind of grumbly
1:32:10Apple can get the same rounds of applause and good feelings from developers by saying the exact opposite this year
1:32:16We're gonna buckle down and make everything better and everyone will applaud and applaud like
1:32:20They have that it's two totally different messages both years
1:32:24They're going to make developers happy and it's not like this evil plot to do it
1:32:27But it's like that's what you have to do
1:32:30Like what do we have to do to make developers happy last year?
1:32:33What they had to do was give them all the things they've been withholding for a long time this year
1:32:37All they have to do is say we've heard your complaints and we're gonna really buckle down and we're gonna make this like a polishing
1:32:44Year and make everything better and they'll get the exact same amount of applause as they got last year
1:32:48So that's totally what I expect to happen. I
1:32:50Want them to emphasize that they're working on stability and refinement and I want those to be the big applause lines from the disgruntled developers
1:33:00Can't imagine this year that they would say we're going even faster into the future and iOS 9 is gonna have more new features than iOS
1:33:068 does and it's gonna be crazy because developers will be like
1:33:09Really? Can you just fix the bugs in the frameworks that you have like this is one of those years
1:33:14And so I think the cycle is natural and it just may be exaggerated because of the huge
1:33:19bonanza last year and what I imagine to be the sort of doubling down on reliability and
1:33:25refinement and polish this year.
1:33:27Well, and also they have the watch SDK to take some of the PR burden, to be a big part
1:33:35of like the wow factor this year so that iOS and Mac OS can kind of rest for a second.
1:33:42They're not gonna rest for long,
1:33:44but they can take a brief nap while the watch does its thing.
1:33:48- An app nap?
1:33:49- Wow.
1:33:51(laughing)
1:33:54- Yeah, that'll be nice.
1:33:55Like the watch, it'll also be fun to see the phone
1:34:00not be the hottest product at WWDC
1:34:02and how that affects the poor phone's ego.
1:34:04The Mac had to endure it.
1:34:07They're like, this used to be my conference
1:34:08and now it's iOS this and iOS that,
1:34:10and they have more sessions than we do
1:34:11and everyone cares about the Mac.
1:34:13And now it's gonna be like, oh, the watch is the new hot.
1:34:15I guess the phone still goes long,
1:34:16'cause it's like, look, watch, you get nothing without me.
1:34:17All your apps come from me.
1:34:19(laughing)
1:34:20So that'll probably still work out.
1:34:22And as for OS X,
1:34:23people are talking about, oh, they did 1010.
1:34:28If they're gonna change the X to an 11
1:34:31or some bogus crap like that,
1:34:32this would be the time to do it.
1:34:33I don't know, I don't think there's any pressure
1:34:36to rename that thing.
1:34:37I think it'll just be 1011.
1:34:38It'll be a different California place name.
1:34:40What will be in it?
1:34:41I think they can get away with the same thing saying you know
1:34:44Discovery D alone is
1:34:47Enough reason that people in the room would applaud if they emphasize that the new version of OS X
1:34:52Refines the existing features although I still feel like there's more pressure on OS X to have something new like every year they have
1:34:58Something they want to show you
1:35:01If they're like last year piggyback than iOS 8 so much
1:35:05It's like Oh extensions and share things and whatever and you need to share a lot of the same code like it was
1:35:09It was as I wrote in my review to OS is moving together
1:35:12Forward like we all have the same features together handoff is a feature that we share
1:35:17Extensions is a feature that we share like even though they they manifest in different ways
1:35:21The feature that the abilities are the same and they only make sense together
1:35:25If iOS 9 says this is this is like a rebuilding polishing year
1:35:29Does OS 10 say the same thing? This is a rebuilding polishing year
1:35:33Can you give OS 10 features at this point without them having equivalents in OS 9?
1:35:38I don't even know, I can't,
1:35:39other than obviously a new file system, whatever.
1:35:41But you know. - Ding, ding.
1:35:42- If that happens, I'm gonna retire.
1:35:44Like I'm not gonna ever go to WRC again,
1:35:46'cause I got one year to make a new language,
1:35:48I got another year to make a new file system,
1:35:49I should just never bother going again,
1:35:51'cause it's all downhill from there.
1:35:52- Or you should go every year,
1:35:54see what else they come up with.
1:35:55- Yeah.
1:35:56- No, I mean like, I think with macOS,
1:35:58you're gonna have, you know,
1:35:59you have similar opportunities as you do with iOS
1:36:02for things like enhancements to the extension system.
1:36:07extensions in more places, different kinds of extensions.
1:36:10Like just stuff like that.
1:36:12There is lots of room for little things like that.
1:36:14I mean, a lot of times, as no one knows better than you,
1:36:16John, a lot of times with the OSs,
1:36:19the big headlining features of macOS
1:36:24are just like, are things like enhancements to mail.
1:36:27Like, you know, enhancements to like some of the basic
1:36:29system apps that are built as OS features.
1:36:31And then there's also a bunch of underlying changes
1:36:34to nice stuff or new APIs.
1:36:36Like, that's the kind of thing I would expect
1:36:39for Mac OS this year.
1:36:40Like, a couple of marketing features
1:36:42like in some of the built-in apps or in Finder or something.
1:36:45Not like a really heavy duty kind of thing.
1:36:48And then just a whole bunch of API enhancements
1:36:51under the hood and refinements to extensions,
1:36:54stuff like that.
1:36:55I'm not expecting big stuff.
1:36:57If they do a new file system,
1:36:58that would be amazing for you and for the show.
1:37:01I wouldn't expect it, honestly.
1:37:04- Yeah, I mean, I don't expect it either.
1:37:05So people were asking about the file systems lab.
1:37:07I didn't check last year's schedule,
1:37:09but isn't that always a lab?
1:37:10Isn't that always one of the labs about file system stuff?
1:37:12- I think so.
1:37:14- Yeah, like it's not, they're just there to talk about
1:37:15like, you know, how to use KQ or whatever
1:37:17to watch for file changes or the, you know,
1:37:19all the different cocoa APIs for monitoring file changes
1:37:24and dealing with extended attributes and how to copy file.
1:37:27Like, that's just, I think that's just a standard thing
1:37:29they have every year.
1:37:30So I read nothing into it.
1:37:31I don't expect a new file system.
1:37:33I never expect a new file system.
1:37:35So whatever, whatever Apple, I'm not mad,
1:37:39just disappointed.
1:37:40(laughing)
1:37:41- Oh God.
1:37:42I have a question.
1:37:44So in years past, it wasn't every year,
1:37:46but in many years past,
1:37:48we could kind of figure out what was coming with hardware
1:37:52based on what kind of got winks and nudges
1:37:56when they discussed new APIs.
1:37:59The classic example of this,
1:38:01and the only one I can think of off the top of my head is,
1:38:02you know, auto layout and size classes.
1:38:05We're clearly indicating that you need to start
1:38:08as a developer thinking about sizes
1:38:10that aren't the one that we have now,
1:38:13or two if you've included non-retina.
1:38:15And then the next thing you know,
1:38:17you know, in that fall, we got iPhone 6 and 6 Plus.
1:38:21I was thinking as I was driving around earlier today,
1:38:26you know, what is it that we're probably gonna see
1:38:30in new APIs that indicates what new hardware might bring.
1:38:35And the thing that jumped to my mind was Force Touch.
1:38:38And what I was planning on asking you guys was,
1:38:41how did they tell us to develop for the potential
1:38:46for Force Touch without tipping their hand
1:38:48that the next iPhone will have Force Touch?
1:38:50And then it occurred to me, well, to a degree,
1:38:53they already have that API in WatchKit.
1:38:55And so maybe what they'll do is,
1:38:58There won't be any mention of it during WWDC,
1:39:01but when the time comes for this to be spreading across iOS,
1:39:06it'll be a very similar looking API.
1:39:08Hopefully that makes sense.
1:39:09So my question to you guys is,
1:39:11is there anything you can think of
1:39:12that would be like the canary in the coal mine
1:39:14for new hardware features?
1:39:17- There's the split screen thing
1:39:19where you divide the screen up into pieces for the big iPad.
1:39:22Like that code was in there,
1:39:23what it was in there for iOS 8,
1:39:25and they just, you know,
1:39:26someone found it in there for iOS 8,
1:39:27and you could actually execute it and watch it do its thing.
1:39:30I assume that code is still being worked on
1:39:34and there's probably no reason for it to exist
1:39:37until a larger iPad appears,
1:39:38or maybe it's a headlining feature of iOS 9,
1:39:41but that's a feature that,
1:39:42I think they could put that in iOS 9,
1:39:45and I'd be like, wait a second,
1:39:46I thought iOS 9 was a rebuilding year.
1:39:47It's like, yeah, but we basically have this feature
1:39:49as iOS 8, it just wasn't ready, it didn't make the cut,
1:39:51or it didn't make sense with that larger hardware.
1:39:53So I could see them releasing that
1:39:56without telling you that they're also gonna make
1:39:58a bigger iPad Air.
1:40:00And on the Force Touch thing, I think you nailed that.
1:40:02I think that it'll be the Force Touch APIs
1:40:03for native watch things.
1:40:04We all know Force Touch is coming to other devices.
1:40:07When it does come, they'll be like,
1:40:07"Hey, and it's the same API that you're used to
1:40:09"from WatchKit, done and done."
1:40:11- Well, the only trick about that though is,
1:40:14first of all, I mean, on the watch,
1:40:16it's probably gonna be a really simple API.
1:40:18The big trick with that is that on the watch,
1:40:22Force Touch is only the entire screen.
1:40:25You don't force touch a location.
1:40:28You force touch the screen.
1:40:29- But that's not a limitation of the hardware.
1:40:31That's how they've chosen to implement it, right?
1:40:33- As far as we know, you're correct.
1:40:34On the Mac, the force touch is a positional thing.
1:40:37It's basically an alternate click
1:40:39at wherever the mouse currently is.
1:40:41On iOS, presumably, just because of the size of the devices,
1:40:46I would expect force touch on iOS to also be positional
1:40:49the way it is on the Mac.
1:40:51So I would actually guess it has very little to do
1:40:53with the watch implementation.
1:40:56That being said, it's also such a,
1:40:59you would expect it's not a very complicated API either.
1:41:02Like it's probably just another gesture
1:41:04or another touch event you can respond to.
1:41:06So that's the kind of thing that, you know,
1:41:09like in previous years, like when Underscore wrote
1:41:13Podometer++, he wrote that entire app in like a week
1:41:17because Apple added the Motion API,
1:41:21like when they announced the new iPhones.
1:41:23not at WVDC that year, but that September or whenever
1:41:26when the iPhones were announced that had the new M7 chip
1:41:28in them, that's when they added that.
1:41:30So they could do the same thing this year,
1:41:32where they could totally leave it out of WVDC,
1:41:35and just in September or whenever they have
1:41:37the iPhone event, announce it then,
1:41:39release iOS 9.1 beta with that,
1:41:43or 9.1 GM even with that,
1:41:45and just have you submit apps within that week or two
1:41:48that you have, and that will be it.
1:41:50They don't really need to do it at this event.
1:41:53- Yeah, I think though that the differences for the M7,
1:41:56it was, and maybe you were kind of hinting at this,
1:41:58but it was a very, very simple API.
1:42:01Whereas like you had said, the Force Touch API,
1:42:04while it's pretty simple on WatchKit,
1:42:06that may be less simple for when it hits iOS.
1:42:10And so I think that they could hold onto some things
1:42:15like the M7 until the 11th hour,
1:42:17something that's a little bit bigger and more complex
1:42:20or in again, auto layout and size classes
1:42:23are a great example of this.
1:42:24They had to at least tip their hat a little bit about it.
1:42:28And I don't know, I just thought it was an interesting
1:42:30thought exercise as to what might we see in the,
1:42:34what smoke might we see in the API
1:42:37that indicates a fire coming this fall?
1:42:38- Well, there's two aspects of it.
1:42:40One is like the different callbacks and delegate methods
1:42:42and event types or whatever,
1:42:43and they don't have to really reveal those.
1:42:45But the other is you would imagine
1:42:47when Force Touch comes to iOS devices,
1:42:49what it will come with is at least a handful of places
1:42:54where UI gets native control set is responsive
1:42:58to Force Touch in some way.
1:42:59Like maybe is it a new controller or a new picker
1:43:02or some existing control that Force Touch has a function on?
1:43:04Because I also agree with Marco
1:43:05that I believe it will be positional.
1:43:07Although it would be fun to have the toddler fist gesture
1:43:09for your iPad where they just smack the whole screen
1:43:11with their fist and it says, you know what?
1:43:13I'm interpreting that like a watch Force Touch
1:43:15where I'm just saying whole screen,
1:43:16like that should take you home or something,
1:43:18you know, back to the home.
1:43:18Anyway, that type of thing where they're trying to show you
1:43:22what the hell, they're not gonna force touch
1:43:24on their iOS hardware and say,
1:43:26we don't use this feature at all,
1:43:27but you developers can figure it out for something.
1:43:29Like they're gonna ship force touch on an iOS device,
1:43:32it's going to have uses in iOS, in native controls,
1:43:36in the apps that Apple ships.
1:43:38And by doing that, they could be like,
1:43:39well, here's the API for the event
1:43:41and here are the callbacks methods that you can get
1:43:43for on the begin and end of these type of things
1:43:46and positions and do all that stuff.
1:43:47But by the way, these native controls,
1:43:50these particular things or these OS features
1:43:52already use that.
1:43:53So if you want to make an app with this new control,
1:43:56this new control has the ability to do something special
1:43:58on Force Touch, you hook up your stuff to here to do that.
1:44:01And by the way, if they Force Touch here,
1:44:02it brings up the multitask switcher
1:44:05and you may have to be ready that that could happen
1:44:07during this screen where previously it couldn't,
1:44:08stuff like that.
1:44:09So I expect Apple to lead on the Force Touch on iOS devices
1:44:14And I think it can do that leading
1:44:17without much pre-announcement of an API.
1:44:19Because I really do think that the vast majority
1:44:22of the new surface area of the API
1:44:24is hooking into OS-related things
1:44:28and Apple standard controls.
1:44:29And everything else is like, well, in your own thing,
1:44:31if you wanna handle these events yourself,
1:44:32it's just a new kind of event and maybe some new callbacks
1:44:34and then do whatever the hell you want.
1:44:37- I'm also like, just in general with Force Touch,
1:44:40and you know, I said this about the Macs too,
1:44:42I'm not that excited about Force Touch.
1:44:45I don't really see it changing things
1:44:48dramatically for the better for much.
1:44:51I see where it was necessary on the watch,
1:44:53and it isn't great on the watch even,
1:44:56but I could see why, it seems like it's a compromise
1:44:58where you have a very, very small screen
1:45:01and not a lot of room for buttons or menus or anything,
1:45:04so this is like the compromise of,
1:45:05well, you don't have room for buttons and menus in your app,
1:45:08so you can do the special gesture in most places
1:45:11and you'll get some additional options.
1:45:13On iOS devices though, I think there's enough screen space
1:45:16and there's enough established in UI paradigms there
1:45:20that you really don't need forced touch.
1:45:23You really don't need like the secondary gesture.
1:45:25There's already so many weird hidden gestures
1:45:28and combos you can do on iOS devices
1:45:30to do certain things that almost nobody knows about
1:45:32and just serve to confuse people.
1:45:34I fear this might just be another one of those things.
1:45:36Like we really don't need this ability
1:45:40to basically right-click everywhere on iOS
1:45:43and search for functionality that is undiscoverable,
1:45:46that it worries me a little bit.
1:45:48It seems like kind of a thing that is something cool
1:45:52that they figure out how to do in the hardware,
1:45:54but that has very limited usefulness,
1:45:57and it seems like it's gonna be overused for a while
1:45:59in the short term.
1:46:00But again, I'm also a skeptic about forced touch on the Mac.
1:46:04I also think that it seems like it's this weird third click
1:46:09that is not a right click, that is about as discoverable
1:46:13as right click, and is this additional thing
1:46:17that does different things depending on what you click
1:46:19and how you click, it just, it seems, to me,
1:46:22force touch seems like this kinda like,
1:46:24it seems like a, it's like Apple's fad of the year,
1:46:28and I don't like it as much as they seem to.
1:46:31- Well, I think you're thinking of it too much
1:46:33as a binary thing, like it is on the watch,
1:46:35because, and I don't know, I don't know the limitations
1:46:37of the sensors, but I can imagine on something the size of an iPad or even a phone that the
1:46:42sensors can be better and more sophisticated and it stops being a binary thing where it's
1:46:47either you're tapping or you're force touching.
1:46:49And it starts being, oh, can we approximate pressure sensitive tablets or pressure sensitive
1:46:54finger presses to make a finger painting app where a little kid can smoosh with their finger
1:46:58around and make thicker and thinner lines with their finger?
1:47:00Is it sensitive enough to do that?
1:47:01Because again, you have the position and you have the force.
1:47:03It's just a question of whether the sensors have that kind of resolution no matter where
1:47:07you press on the thing.
1:47:08If you stop thinking of it as a binary on/off thing, it makes actually the most sense on
1:47:13iOS devices.
1:47:14Because on the watch it's like, yeah, the whole surface is force-touch because it's
1:47:17too small for you to be precisely doing or whatever.
1:47:19It's a decision they made there.
1:47:21Maybe limited by the size of the sensors they have to have.
1:47:24On the Mac, same deal.
1:47:27You're not writing on the screen, you're not touching the screen, it's this other thing
1:47:30or whatever.
1:47:31on an iPad or a phone, if Force Touch can be, think of it instead of being Force Touch,
1:47:37think of it as the screen is now pressure sensitive.
1:47:41That has lots of implications for any kind of interface where you want different degrees
1:47:47of pressure, not just on or off, but a whole gradation of, I don't know, 256, a couple
1:47:53thousand levels of pressure depending on how sensitive they are, for drawing apps, for
1:47:58even for if they can come up with a control
1:48:01in the same way that the current standard controls
1:48:04for scrolling are sort of speed sensitive,
1:48:06as in how fast you flick and how long your path is.
1:48:10A long, slow swipe moves the thing differently
1:48:12than a short, fast one, and tapping it stops it.
1:48:15Like those are all gestures where velocity is used
1:48:18as an interface element, and that velocity is not
1:48:21on or off, fast or slow, it's a gradation of speeds.
1:48:24So if they can use a gradation and pressure
1:48:26to provide interface elements that behave even more
1:48:30sort of in a way that is familiar
1:48:32to being under our fingers.
1:48:33Like it feels giving a sort of weight to the controls
1:48:36or new gestures that involve pressing a little bit harder,
1:48:39a little bit lighter influencing how things move
1:48:42or maybe how much friction there is
1:48:43between your finger and the imaginary surface
1:48:45that's being simulated by the lights under the screen.
1:48:48I'm a little bit more optimistic about it,
1:48:49but it really all depends on,
1:48:51I don't know the capabilities
1:48:53of what they consider their Force Touch hardware.
1:48:55It really is binary and I still think they could use it to do stuff like in the interface
1:49:00Especially the stupid home button, but you can tap a million different ways
1:49:03I don't know if force touch makes that worse or better, but it's clear that they're kind of overloading a lot of things with
1:49:08Multi tap multi finger gestures. I would probably trade a couple of those for the hard press versus soft press
1:49:16But maybe that just makes it worse. Maybe they'll never give up things. Maybe they'll just keep adding more and more textures
1:49:20This is like a hard three finger force touch in the upper left corner and that would be crazy
1:49:25But I'm really hoping that the capabilities and the sensors they can fit in a device that size have more capabilities
1:49:31and then it can finally be the sort of input device that
1:49:35Reads different degrees of pressure and does smart things with them
1:49:38Well and the the force touch trackpad on the max
1:49:41I think it does have like because they talk about how you could like draw the signature with pressure
1:49:46Sensitivity and stuff and the fast forward on the video even like you fast forward slowly and fast forward the harder your press
1:49:51I just don't know how how many
1:49:53How many levels there are and it's a lot easier to do multi levels on the trackpad?
1:49:57Than it is to do on a big eye like on a big iPad screen if I'm pressing exactly dead center with a certain amount of force
1:50:05Does that register the same as pressing in the lower left corner with the exact same amount of force?
1:50:10Maybe you need more than sensors at the corners. Maybe it centers all around maybe it's sense
1:50:14I don't know the tech behind it.
1:50:17You would hope that it's gonna be like
1:50:18one of those Wacom tablets or whatever
1:50:20where they put the pressure sensitivity in the pen,
1:50:22which is a clever way around this entire problem,
1:50:24but we need this to work with fingers or hot dogs
1:50:27or whatever people are using to, or cosmonauts,
1:50:29whatever they're using to poke at their
1:50:31capacitive touchscreen.
1:50:32- Well also, I have a concern also.
1:50:35I would not necessarily think that force touch
1:50:38in iOS devices is a sure thing yet,
1:50:40because if you look at the teardowns, the way it works,
1:50:43it basically puts strain gauges on the four corners
1:50:46of the glass surface that it's being put on.
1:50:50Glass flexes when you push it.
1:50:54And on the watch, you know, the watch is,
1:50:57whether it's glass or sapphire,
1:50:58it's a pretty small surface area
1:51:00and it's a pretty thick screen on top of there.
1:51:03So I wouldn't expect there to be any flex there.
1:51:05That would be a noticeable problem on these strain gauges.
1:51:08But-- - It's also arced,
1:51:09which helps the strength.
1:51:10Like the watch is like a tent that helps it stiffen it.
1:51:13- Exactly, on the Mac track pads, you can see,
1:51:16when you see them in the store, if you have one,
1:51:18you can see the thickness of the glass.
1:51:21Like if you look on the edge of the track pad,
1:51:24you notice that, oh, this is actually
1:51:26a visibly thick piece of glass that I'm pushing here.
1:51:30And if you think about the sizing,
1:51:32the track pads, these ForceTux track pads,
1:51:35are, I think they're all smaller than the iPhone 6 Plus.
1:51:39And they're definitely smaller than iPads.
1:51:41So if you think about force touch coming to phones
1:51:44and iPads, the ratio of the thickness of the glass
1:51:48that covers phones and iPads to the relatively large
1:51:52surface area is very different.
1:51:53It's much thinner glass than the force touch track pads
1:51:57or the Apple Watch screen.
1:51:59And so I wonder then, can you just put strain gauges
1:52:03on the corners of those things and have the natural,
1:52:06like if you force touch in the middle of the display
1:52:09and there's strain gauges on all four corners
1:52:10where you're pretty far from them.
1:52:12Will it be able to reliably consider
1:52:15the flexing of the glass or will that be a problem?
1:52:18Not only will it, of course, might it be a problem
1:52:20for breaking the glass, but that's another problem.
1:52:25So I wonder if they really can do this
1:52:27for, say, an iPad Air, or if they do make a 12-inch iPad,
1:52:31the problem gets even worse.
1:52:34- Yeah, that's what I was saying,
1:52:35rather than just the four corners,
1:52:36maybe all around the edges,
1:52:38and you sort of take the average of them all
1:52:40account for the flex or maybe you have sensors underneath the screen because you do have
1:52:43way more room to work with than the watch.
1:52:45So I imagine you have more options, especially on the iPad but I think also on the phone.
1:52:51And on the phone, since the screen is smaller, it would flex less and the glass on the phone
1:52:55is also a little bit curved or whatever.
1:52:56So I think this is technologically possible but again I don't know.
1:53:03The Force Touch is a marketing term so it could be that they have several different
1:53:06approaches to achieving this feature on the different devices.
1:53:09That's what I'm hoping for best case and I really do think the next, if not the 6s or
1:53:15whatever the heck the revision of the 6 that we all expect is going to be, certainly on
1:53:19the 7 or whatever, the one where they really redesigned it.
1:53:22Of course people said that about NFC for years and it took forever to come to but I really
1:53:26do expect Force Touch to come even if it is the stupid right click that nobody uses just
1:53:30because I think they have the room to use it and it's on the watch and like you said,
1:53:35you know, like if it's a fad or a why the hell not
1:53:38or whatever, they seem pretty convinced
1:53:39that it is an important thing that, I mean,
1:53:42the hell they brought to the Mac for crying out loud.
1:53:43So it's gonna come to iOS.
1:53:45(laughing)
1:53:46- Can't innovate anymore my ass.
1:53:48(audience laughing)
1:53:51- So I have a random question.
1:53:52Are we seeing code samples in Swift, Objective-C
1:53:56or both in regular sessions?
1:53:58- Both, always both.
1:53:59- I would, yeah, I would say knowing Apple,
1:54:03knowing how they work, I would say it depends on the session.
1:54:08- You see them in C++.
1:54:09- Yeah, I would say you'll probably see
1:54:12one language per session, but that it will vary
1:54:15depending on what framework the team is working on,
1:54:18like what department they're in.
1:54:20- Don't you feel like, I expect to see slides
1:54:22where they say, and the API looks like this,
1:54:25and again, if you have to do it in Objective-C,
1:54:27it looks like this, which is a little uglier,
1:54:28or the reverse, and the API looks like this,
1:54:30and in Swift, it can look a little bit nicer.
1:54:32Like, for the people who are on one side
1:54:33or the other of like they're excited about how their API can be cleaner and
1:54:38Swift they'll be excited to show you the two to compare and contrast and which
1:54:42which one is the primary which one do they show you the examples from and say
1:54:44oh by the way this is how it looks in the other I think that will vary from
1:54:47presentation to presentation and in my experience Apple does not speak with one
1:54:52voice at WWDC when it comes to when it comes to low-level technical things that
1:54:58individual developers and teams have opinions about those opinions are
1:55:01expressed through, you know, subtle wording on slides or asides or
1:55:09expressions or snark or whatever. So I fully expect that each individual
1:55:15presentation and framework and team will take a slightly different approach to
1:55:21how they mix their Swift and Objective-C. I think some will be uniform, some will
1:55:26be a mix, and some of the mix will be like, we'll have a slant to the mix. Like
1:55:31Like you'll be able to tell, is someone really excited
1:55:33about how this looks in Swift?
1:55:34Or are they annoyed that you can also do it in Swift
1:55:38and they have to show you that slide too?
1:55:40- Yeah, I mean like I think that Swift is only one year old
1:55:45in the public eye and a lot of Apple hadn't seen it
1:55:49before we saw it.
1:55:50And so like people were speculating like,
1:55:52oh, will the watch native app SDK be Swift only?
1:55:55And technically there's no reason for that.
1:55:58They might do a policy thing to do that.
1:56:00I doubt it, but they might, but there's technically
1:56:03no reason for that because the watch is older than Swift.
1:56:06Like, they started development on the watch
1:56:08before Swift was a thing, and so, you know,
1:56:11the watch's code that runs on the watch that Apple wrote
1:56:14is almost certainly using very little or no Swift.
1:56:17We also heard from a number of people
1:56:20that Apple's internal build system
1:56:23didn't even support Swift as of not that long ago,
1:56:26and maybe it does now, but that's a slow process
1:56:30to get that in there.
1:56:31- And by the way, the watch isn't technically older
1:56:33than Swift, it is older than Swift's revelation
1:56:36to the wider Apple, that's why it's older then, right?
1:56:39- Well, that's true, yes, fair enough, okay.
1:56:41So, Swift is gonna come on slowly, it's not gonna be like,
1:56:45oh, flip a switch and everything's now Swift.
1:56:47It's gonna keep happening slowly.
1:56:48I am though very interested to see what Swift has become,
1:56:54Like, you know, what announcements do we see
1:56:56about Swift next week?
1:56:57How has it changed?
1:56:59They've done a number of revisions over the last year.
1:57:02So I'm wondering, like, you know,
1:57:03have we already seen most of the changes
1:57:05or is it gonna be larger changes that happen
1:57:08that are announced next week?
1:57:10- They teased it on Twitter.
1:57:11Like the official Swift account was like,
1:57:13oh, exciting things in store.
1:57:14I expect to see bar graphs showing compilation times.
1:57:17Being better, I expect to see some silly performance bake-offs
1:57:20showing how much faster Swift has become
1:57:21and maybe how much faster it is than Objective-C.
1:57:24and they had those last year, they're gonna have them again.
1:57:26And if there are any cool new features,
1:57:29especially involving all of the crazy stuff
1:57:32they've added to Swift to bridge the Objective-C world
1:57:36to all the sort of attributes and stuff they've added
1:57:39to work nicely with Arc and the Objective-C APIs.
1:57:42Oh, here you can annotate, we, Apple, annotate
1:57:45all our Objective-C things and all our Swift bridges,
1:57:48so they all do the right thing so you don't have to do
1:57:50all sorts of weird stuff with optionals.
1:57:53they'll probably talk about how to do that, how to make your Objective-C APIs so that they're
1:57:59nicely callable and Swift and vice versa. So I imagine there'll be a lot of sessions about that.
1:58:03Certainly, Swift has advanced so much in its one year of life. Certainly they've held back some
1:58:08cool new features to show off. So there'll be a lot of that, of like, "Look how much better Swift
1:58:14is now than it was before. Look how much cooler Playgrounds are here. Look at this demo of this
1:58:18thing you couldn't do in Playgrounds before." Even though we all think we've seen it all, like,
1:58:21like haven't we seen all that stuff?
1:58:22They've been releasing new versions of Swift all year.
1:58:24Like what is there left to show us?
1:58:25I imagine there is enough left to show
1:58:28to make for some fun demos.
1:58:30- Right, and there's also gonna be enhancements
1:58:31to the tools, you know, you mentioned playgrounds.
1:58:34There's almost certainly gonna be Xcode WiFi debugging
1:58:37just for the watch so you can do native watch apps.
1:58:40Stuff like that, like there's gonna be enhancements
1:58:42to that that's all gonna be exciting.
1:58:43Like oftentimes what you hear in the platform
1:58:47State of the Union, which is the big session
1:58:48in the afternoon of the keynote day
1:58:50that's not live streamed usually,
1:58:52oftentimes the things you hear there matter more
1:58:55to developers than what you hear in the keynote.
1:58:57Because that's where they usually talk about things
1:58:59like major Xcode improvements and stuff like that
1:59:01that just are really helpful in day to day work.
1:59:04So I'm just looking forward to all this stuff.
1:59:06Even if there aren't a lot of major headlining features
1:59:10that are important to me,
1:59:13every year Apple does really useful things
1:59:16in the tools and the APIs that I benefit from.
1:59:19So I'm just looking forward to that.
1:59:21- So no new car?
1:59:23(laughing)
1:59:25Is that an appropriate WWDC announcement?
1:59:27I guess if you can't develop for it.
1:59:29- Yeah, but you could drive it.
1:59:30- Yeah, I'm gonna say no car.
1:59:32- Worldwide drivers championship?
1:59:35- Well.
1:59:37- Hey, they had a Ferrari at WWDC last year.
1:59:40- They did, yeah, it was on the third floor somehow for,
1:59:44I don't know, how does it get there?
1:59:45- I was so annoyed when that disappeared.
1:59:46I'm like, surely that will be here all week
1:59:48and I can go over and lovingly stroke it
1:59:50in between sessions, but it disappeared so quickly.
1:59:52I barely, I got like one picture of it on my iPod Touch
1:59:55and then it came out of a session, it was gone.
1:59:57- Well, can you imagine like, you know,
1:59:58developers like reaching into that big bowl of Skittles
2:00:00in the afternoon and then going over to touch the Ferrari,
2:00:02like that's, yeah, they don't want that, come on.
2:00:05- They can wash the car, it's worth it, come on.
2:00:08- Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,
2:00:10Harry's, Studio Neat, and Warby Parker,
2:00:12and we will see you next week.
2:00:15Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin
2:00:20'Cause it was accidental, accidental, accidental
2:00:26John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him
2:00:31'Cause it was accidental, accidental, accidental
2:00:37You can find the show notes at ATP.fm
2:00:43And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them
2:00:48S-C-A-S-Y-M-I-S-S-K-C-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-M-O-C-O-P-M-E-T-S-I-R-A-C
2:01:03USA, Syracuse, oh it's accident, accident, accident
2:01:09I've painted a wheel like a chair, no accident, accident
2:01:15I've taken a bite, and it's been so long
2:01:18Oh, I forgot in the follow-up section, I forgot my other item of follow-up
2:01:22which was the Velveeta shells and cheese tastes like melted PVC plastic
2:01:25[laughter]
2:01:28Kraft Mac and cheese forever
2:01:30[laughter]
2:01:32I don't even know what to say here because Kraft mac and cheese has no taste.
2:01:41It doesn't taste like anything.
2:01:44In fairness it tastes like salt.
2:01:46Keep in mind that I'm a supertaster, Casey.
2:01:48So I don't have that problem.
2:01:49Oh.
2:01:50Well, it just must suck to be you.
2:01:52It actually must suck to be you.
2:01:53No, it's great.
2:01:54It tastes like a thousand pears, Lex will tell you.
2:01:57Wait, pears in the fruit?
2:02:00That's a reference.
2:02:01Don't worry about it.
2:02:02I should have known.
2:02:03What kind of pear?
2:02:04Because different pears taste different.
2:02:05It's a reference.
2:02:06I hope it's a reference.
2:02:07I'm going to Google it.
2:02:08I don't know why you two have me doubting.
2:02:10You shouldn't be able to make me doubt about my references.
2:02:13Bosc pears are the best pears.
2:02:15I can't.
2:02:16I genuinely...
2:02:17Like, obviously, taste is completely subjective.
2:02:21As much as I joke, I'm not saying that you're wrong, especially if you are a supertaster,
2:02:25I just really don't understand having had Kraft mac and cheese and Velveeta
2:02:31Like I can understand if you said well, maybe the consistency of Velveeta is not my thing or perhaps
2:02:36I don't know. Maybe you just don't like the taste but with Kraft it's like
2:02:41There's nothing to taste. It's just there. It's the water of mac and cheese. It's just there
2:02:49Velveeta like I was not joking with the taste like melted plastic
2:02:53It has a weird plasticy aftertaste, which maybe you're not picking up, but it is definitely
2:02:58there, right?
2:02:59It looks like, it smells like, and to me it tastes like plastic, right?
2:03:03And that's not a pleasant thing.
2:03:05Kraft Mac and Cheese is not high art.
2:03:06I'm just saying, if you're going to pick your junk food, I would not pick junk food that
2:03:10has a weird aftertaste.
2:03:11It's like those Olestra potato chips.
2:03:13Just give me regular potato chips.
2:03:15The regular potato chips, in this analogy, is the Kraft one.
2:03:20Yeah, I would agree with that.
2:03:22I don't know just Kraft mac and cheese. It's so bland. You got all those recipes for putting chilies in it that our readers
2:03:28our listeners sent us. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:03:30I'm like it's I can understand I'm less bothered by people not liking Velveeta
2:03:34than I am about people swearing that mac and cheese is so much tastier because it just doesn't taste like freaking anything
2:03:41It's not so much tastier. It's the Velveeta is so vile. That's what it is
2:03:45It's like it's not we're not moving Kraft up the continuum to say this is like great food
2:03:49We're just saying that we're pushing Velveeta down the continuum. And by the way, I did a Google for it. I was close
2:03:53It's hundred pairs and a million pairs not a thousand. So I was right in the middle there
2:03:57I have no idea what you're talking about. I still meant here that Bosque pairs are the best pairs
2:04:01Also, I don't I don't understand hard pair people
2:04:03Yeah, I don't are there hard pair people like oh yes, I'll eat a hard pair right I'm not against it
2:04:11But you're saying people who like don't like soft pairs like it goes too soft and they're like, oh, that's it
2:04:15I can't handle it. Yeah, people who just basically treat pears like apples and just bite them
2:04:19when they're as solid as a rock. I mean, I can do that. I'm not against that, but I agree
2:04:24that they get it. It's like banana ripeness. You've seen the variability in the ripeness
2:04:29of bananas people are willing to eat. Some people eat them super green where you feel
2:04:33like they're going to get a stomachache. Some people wait for them to go entirely brown
2:04:36on the outside, and some people are in between. I think pears, maybe the continuum is more
2:04:41abbreviated, but I don't know, I will eat a pear
2:04:44when it's way too hard because it's better
2:04:46than not having a pear, and I will reject a pear
2:04:49when it's gone way too soft, but I'm probably more
2:04:52towards your opinion of what the sweet spot is,
2:04:54which is definitely on the soft end.
2:04:56- I would rather not have a pear than have a hard pear.
2:04:59- Well, there's hard and then there's like,
2:05:01I am having trouble biting this.
2:05:03You know, like apples, apples you can always bite.
2:05:05Apple hardness, I will eat the pear.
2:05:07- I will wait, for a Bosc pear,
2:05:10I will wait until it is almost as soft as a ripe avocado
2:05:14before eating it, and it is delicious that way.
2:05:16- That's maybe a little too far for me.
2:05:19- I just don't like pears.
2:05:20I have nothing to add to this conversation.
2:05:22- You don't like pears?
2:05:24- Nope.
2:05:25- What kind of person doesn't like pears?
2:05:27What is objectionable?
2:05:28Do you not like apples?
2:05:29- No, I love apples.
2:05:31- Like pears, what is objectionable about them?
2:05:33They're sweet and like, oh, I don't understand that at all.
2:05:38- I just, I don't care.
2:05:39I don't care for pears.
2:05:40I don't know what you want me to say. I just don't think they're very tasty. Don't like plums.
2:05:43Plums are weird. Plums look like a gel fruit. I can understand you being turned off.
2:05:47Pears are just like an apple but taste different. But taste better, I think.
2:05:50And they're bigger and they last longer.
2:05:52Everything about pears is better.
2:05:54Some of them are fuzzy on the outside that can be turned off.
2:05:56What? I've never seen that kind.
2:05:58Pears, you know, they have a little like furry texture on the outside.
2:06:01I don't think I've ever seen a furry pear.
2:06:03They're out there.
2:06:05Crazy.
2:06:07All right, "Accidental Food Podcast." Yay.
2:06:10Well, you started it.
2:06:12No, you did with your damn...
2:06:14No, this was follow-up. That was follow-up from last week with your big conversation
2:06:17talking about mac and cheese and fast food chains and stuff. I'm following up that. Doing
2:06:23follow-up for the world. I forgot. I forgot it in the first part.
2:06:27I think Declan's teething, and so I slept for like three or four hours yesterday and
2:06:32and I wanna die.
2:06:34That's my sob story of the day.
2:06:36How's potty training?
2:06:37- Yeah, I guess we were supposed to start that.
2:06:41(laughing)
2:06:42- Is this the royal we?
2:06:44Who is the we you're talking about here?
2:06:46- The world was supposed to start that.
2:06:49- You're expecting Adam to take some initiative in this area?
2:06:51- Yeah, or the government, I don't know.
2:06:54(laughing)
2:06:56- They come in the night and potty train your child,
2:06:58if only that's how it worked.
2:07:00Potty training as a service?
2:07:01- Is there like P camp?
2:07:02Can you like send them to like a camp and just learn?
2:07:05- Your house is P camp, get ready.
2:07:07(laughing)
2:07:09Your whole house is one giant toilet.
2:07:11(beep)