118: A Fistful of Apple Watches


00:00:00   So I hear you I hear you really like new max these days, huh, so it's some follow-up

00:00:04   nice try Casey

00:00:07   John why don't you tell us about marathon running? Well last show we talked about what?

00:00:13   What you might want out of the watch if you're using it to do not just fitness tracking in terms of how much am I?

00:00:19   moving kind of fitness but

00:00:21   More serious how far have I run where have I run and we mentioned a GPS?

00:00:28   Being superior like a dedicated was dedicated big ugly GPS things being superior to just the watch because the watch doesn't have any GPS

00:00:34   Aaron wrote in to say that

00:00:36   his experience with the Apple watch as a runner are not great even when the phone is with him says the

00:00:42   Quality of Apple watches ability to track depends on how you hold your phone if you hold your phone in your hand or wear it

00:00:48   On your arm, it does a very good job

00:00:49   If you were out on your waist then under measures you run by about 5%

00:00:52   Which of course is terrible if you're a serious runner and you want to know exactly how far you ran

00:00:57   So, he goes on to say that, what is it, he and his wife, yes, that we really like the

00:01:05   extra abilities the watch give us.

00:01:07   We can control our songs and podcasts, receive and send childcare-related messages without

00:01:10   fear of dropping our phone in the cement, and there's a grocery store on their route

00:01:13   that takes Apple Pay so they can use their watch to pay for things there.

00:01:17   As a result, you know, so they're annoyed by the watch's inability to accurately track

00:01:21   their runs because they don't like to wear their phone on their arm or hold it in their

00:01:26   hand.

00:01:27   like all his other abilities. So right now they're running with two watches. The Apple

00:01:30   Watch on one hand and the Garmin GPS thing on the other. And he says you can't wear them

00:01:34   on the same wrist because they literally press each other's buttons. So this is not, this

00:01:39   would not be like featured in an ad for, I guess, for the Apple Watch showing someone

00:01:43   running with their Garmin GPS watch and the Apple Watch. But apparently this is the current

00:01:49   reality for people who are really serious about exactly tracking their runs. But it's

00:01:53   interesting that Apple Watch has tagged along for the ride for its other

00:01:56   abilities and for like even like the minor ones like well why don't you just

00:01:59   bring your phone with you then you can text to childcare related things or

00:02:03   whatever. Why do you need to bring the watch? Well you don't want to bring the

00:02:06   big phone and so you bring the watch just so you can have a slightly smaller

00:02:09   thing that you don't have to carry that you can text from and it seems like that

00:02:13   is enough of a use case to get that watch to come on board for the run.

00:02:17   Well the phone has to be with them in order to send and receive the messages

00:02:22   But yeah, I gotta imagine that doing so from the watch for simple things is a lot easier

00:02:27   than getting your phone out of whatever holster-like contraption.

00:02:30   Right, like then you can just put it somewhere where it's like, I mean, it could be in a

00:02:33   backpack or in anything.

00:02:35   It doesn't have to be accessible.

00:02:36   And the whole idea of worrying about dropping it while you're running, I mean, because I

00:02:40   don't know how good people are, right?

00:02:41   Could you get a phone out of your shorts pockets while you run or out of a holster thing and

00:02:45   then, I don't know, worried about looking down at your thing, maybe?

00:02:47   Well, the good thing is most shorts pockets are so ridiculously shallow, especially athletic

00:02:51   shorts that your phone will just naturally almost be falling out of it all the time anyway,

00:02:55   so it shouldn't be too hard to get it out.

00:02:56   It'll leap out of your pocket into your hand.

00:02:58   Exactly, hopefully.

00:02:59   Oh my goodness.

00:03:01   Oh, all right.

00:03:02   Well, it's funny to hear this feedback.

00:03:04   I am not a particularly serious runner.

00:03:08   In fact, I haven't ran in a long time, and I should probably be shamed for that.

00:03:13   However, it's odd because of the feedback I've seen through Twitter and various websites

00:03:20   whatnot. Everything I've seen has said that the watch was eerily accurate. Now, again,

00:03:25   I can't really speak to this one way or the other, but this is the first piece of feedback

00:03:31   that I've come across that said that the watch wasn't, if not very close, eerily close.

00:03:36   So, in all fairness, Apple did just release a software update that was after this email

00:03:41   came in that allegedly improves this and also gives instructions the first time you launch

00:03:46   the workout app that you should do like a basic 20 minute walk with your iPhone present

00:03:52   with the watch, running the workout app to kind of calibrate it. I think we talked about

00:03:57   this last episode.

00:03:58   Well, this complaint is about even when you have the phone with you, he's saying compared

00:04:01   to his Garmin, that the phone is under measuring if the phone is on your waist. If the phone

00:04:07   is on your arm or in your hand, it's fine, but if the phone is on your waist, that it's

00:04:10   under measuring by 5%. Maybe the software update helps us because this feedback was

00:04:14   from before the software update? I don't know. Yeah, it beats me. What else do we have? This

00:04:19   is from Christopher and he gives one more reason that runners and cyclists want a cellular

00:04:24   radio on their watch. This is assuming they don't have their phone, is in case they get

00:04:27   injured and can't get back from wherever they are. So if you run or bike long distances

00:04:31   and halfway through your journey something happens that you can no longer run because

00:04:35   you twist your ankle or something or your bike, you know, your brakes or you get hit

00:04:39   by a car or something, you want to be able to contact someone to come and get you or

00:04:43   or call 911 or whatever and you can't do that with your watch

00:04:47   if you don't have your phone with you.

00:04:48   - I mean that's a really good reason,

00:04:50   but that just sounds like if you're gonna be

00:04:52   doing something like that in a remote area,

00:04:55   it just sounds like you should probably

00:04:56   just bring your phone.

00:04:57   - Well I mean, we were talking before,

00:04:59   what would it take for you to leave your phone at home?

00:05:02   And for people who want to leave their phone at home,

00:05:04   I can imagine people who are doing athletic activities

00:05:06   every little bit, even if you have it strapped to your arm

00:05:08   or your waist or whatever, it's kind of an annoyance

00:05:11   and it adds up.

00:05:12   What would it take for serious runners and cyclists to leave their phone home? It sounds like

00:05:16   You know more accurate

00:05:18   Tracking of where you are so maybe GPS and at the very least some ability to like a 911 call or something or like

00:05:27   I you know a single call home or something like that

00:05:29   For a cell radio, so we're not there yet, but I assume in several more generations. This will be possible

00:05:36   That's what we've been saying about max with cellular radios, so we haven't seen that quite yet

00:05:40   It's totally possible right now. We're there. It is possible. It hasn't happened, but it's

00:05:45   possible.

00:05:46   Yeah, I think at this point it's pretty clear that Apple just does not think they need to

00:05:50   put cell radios in Macs, because they could have so long ago, and there have been so many

00:05:54   opportunities to, it's very clear that they just want you to use the phone tethering feature

00:05:58   that I think you have somebody introduce the automatic thing where it just detects it in

00:06:02   the Bluetooth menu sometimes.

00:06:05   Even when it didn't auto detect it, you could still use it for tethering, but that's their

00:06:08   solution is tethering we're just like we're just we should be glad that they

00:06:11   didn't decide the way you connect the iPhone the iPad to a cell network as you

00:06:14   tether it to a phone like why did that one happen to get the cell radio they

00:06:17   could have just said you know what all cell radio communication if you buy

00:06:22   Apple products goes through your app your iPhone I almost called the Apple

00:06:26   phone see what you do an apple make up your mind in the names here but they

00:06:30   didn't they said the iPad can have a cell radio too but no max all right why

00:06:34   Why don't you tell us about what's going on in India?

00:06:36   This is from Akshay and it is about the, what is it, the world's, India's biggest online

00:06:43   retailer planning to go app only.

00:06:45   This goes back to our conversation about Facebook instant articles and Marco's doomsaying about

00:06:51   the future of the web.

00:06:53   Here is an online retailer saying that they're just not going to have a website anymore,

00:06:58   I guess.

00:06:59   This place is called Flipkart and it's from this article says it's going to move to an

00:07:03   app only format within a year.

00:07:05   One of their VP says,

00:07:07   "A year ago, 6% of our traffic was coming from mobile

00:07:09   "and in less than 18 months that traffic is tenfold."

00:07:12   So what is that, 60?

00:07:14   They can do that math in my head.

00:07:16   It seems premature,

00:07:17   maybe if 60% of your traffic is coming from apps

00:07:19   to say by the end of the year,

00:07:21   you're gonna go 100% app.

00:07:23   I don't know if they're gonna tear down their website,

00:07:25   but anyway, this is not just some random place

00:07:27   doing this for publicity.

00:07:29   This is a store with more than 40 million registered users

00:07:32   and 30,000 merchants selling 20 million products.

00:07:36   Indie is a big place, this is a big store.

00:07:38   The fact that they're planning on even trying

00:07:40   to go app only shows that how much things have changed.

00:07:44   I don't think Amazon's going app only anytime soon,

00:07:46   but I don't know about you guys,

00:07:48   when I shop, maybe I'm just an old fogey again,

00:07:50   but when I shop online,

00:07:52   the app is sometimes good if I know exactly what I want,

00:07:55   but I always feel like I'm getting

00:07:57   more of a cut down experience,

00:07:58   even on the big iPhone 6,

00:08:00   maybe on the 6 Plus it wouldn't feel as cut down,

00:08:02   but I want to go to the actual website.

00:08:05   And frequently I want to have a big screen

00:08:06   so I can have multiple tabs and multiple windows

00:08:09   to compare this product to that product

00:08:10   and so on and so forth.

00:08:12   I kind of feel constrained when doing anything serious

00:08:15   like price comparisons and shopping

00:08:17   and looking for things from a mobile device.

00:08:19   So I hope the web stays around a little longer

00:08:22   because I really don't like buying things on my phone.

00:08:25   - Yeah, I agree.

00:08:26   I don't shop from any one single retailer often enough

00:08:29   justify installing an app except maybe Amazon. And I recently installed the Amazon app. And

00:08:36   for the life of me, I can't remember why, but I believe I've deleted it from all my devices

00:08:41   because I hate using it. I'd much rather go to the website, even on like an iPad, I'd much rather be

00:08:46   on the website for the exact same reasons you said, Jon, that I feel like I'm getting a kind of

00:08:51   neutered experience on the Amazon app. And for all I know, that could be patently untrue, but that's

00:08:56   That's just what it feels like to me.

00:08:58   And one way or the other, I just don't see the point

00:09:02   in having an app that's really just a native front end

00:09:05   for a website when it comes to shopping.

00:09:07   I mean, you could make the same arguments

00:09:09   for like Instagram and things like that,

00:09:10   but for shopping, I'd much rather use the website.

00:09:15   The only exception that I can think of

00:09:19   is the Apple Store app, which I keep on my phone,

00:09:22   mostly for the rare occasions I'm going into the Apple Store

00:09:25   for things like EasySteal or whatever they call it,

00:09:28   and for the rare occasions that I decide to buy watches

00:09:32   that I swore up and down I wouldn't buy.

00:09:34   But I don't know, Marco, do you use store apps

00:09:37   or are you a web kind of guy?

00:09:40   - So I'm kind of halfway between you old fogies

00:09:42   and the rest of the world.

00:09:44   (laughing)

00:09:45   I, sorry, I'm also an old fogie,

00:09:49   but in this one particular way,

00:09:51   I'm a little bit closer to the rest of the world

00:09:53   than you guys sounds like, so.

00:09:54   - Get off my lawn.

00:09:55   - Exactly.

00:09:56   (laughs)

00:09:58   So I have the Amazon app and the Apple Store app.

00:10:00   I don't have any others for stores,

00:10:02   but I do buy a lot from Amazon.

00:10:04   And you know, the Apple app is great

00:10:06   because their online store isn't really that much better

00:10:10   than the app.

00:10:11   In some ways it's worse, in some ways it's slower.

00:10:13   The app is always the fastest way to pre-order hardware

00:10:17   at 3 a.m. when they do the new releases and stuff.

00:10:20   Touch ID is awesome, et cetera.

00:10:22   The Amazon app is different,

00:10:23   but the Amazon app, I didn't install it,

00:10:27   I've been buying almost everything that I buy

00:10:29   from Amazon for years, and I only installed the app

00:10:33   about six months ago, but I've actually

00:10:36   gotten into using it.

00:10:37   I don't usually place orders from the app,

00:10:40   unless it's just like refilling something

00:10:41   that I already know is good that I want,

00:10:43   like oh, we're out of dishwasher detergent,

00:10:45   okay, you know, add that, whatever.

00:10:47   But I do frequently use the app to add things to my cart

00:10:52   without actually completing the buy process.

00:10:55   So it kind of like as a reminder,

00:10:56   as like a save for later kind of thing.

00:10:59   Like if I'm out, I'm like the other day,

00:11:00   oh I'm outside, oh let me look up,

00:11:02   I keep forgetting to buy pressure washer detergent.

00:11:05   So let me look that up quickly and just add one to my car

00:11:07   and I'll go back later when I order something

00:11:10   off of Amazon next, which is probably gonna be

00:11:11   within a couple of weeks, then I'll see it

00:11:13   and oh, I have to go finish this research

00:11:16   and buy this or don't buy this.

00:11:18   So it is nice for that.

00:11:19   People in the chat are telling me there's all these

00:11:21   abilities about scanning barcodes in the real world

00:11:24   and comparing stuff, and I don't do any of that yet,

00:11:26   maybe I will in the future, but I do see the point

00:11:29   of the app, furthermore, I think us saying,

00:11:34   oh, well we don't really buy things in the apps,

00:11:37   we prefer to buy things in the websites,

00:11:38   that's kind of like people saying, well,

00:11:41   I don't like to buy things on the internet,

00:11:43   I like to just look things up, maybe then go to a store

00:11:46   and buy them, I don't wanna type my credit card

00:11:48   in on the internet, maybe I'll look something up

00:11:50   the yellow pages, like, it just, it's--

00:11:52   - I think it's the opposite, because we, it's the opposite.

00:11:55   It's more like, the comparison I would draw is,

00:11:58   when the power users complain that all the power user

00:12:00   features they want are going away,

00:12:01   but it really doesn't matter,

00:12:02   because the rest of the world wants a simpler product.

00:12:04   And what I'm anyway complaining about is,

00:12:07   there are features available on the website

00:12:09   that aren't available in the app that I use.

00:12:10   And maybe most people don't use them,

00:12:12   and that's why I think it's not analogous to,

00:12:14   like, you know, I'm not ready for the future,

00:12:16   I wanna buy things in a store instead of online.

00:12:18   because in that case the online experience gave more features than the in-person one

00:12:22   because you can comparison shop and do all sorts of stuff when you're in a physical store,

00:12:25   all you can do is look at what's there.

00:12:27   And like the example, what kind of features am I talking about?

00:12:29   So recently I bought swim fins for my kids.

00:12:33   I had no specific swim fin in mind that I wanted to do, so I wanted to see a lot of

00:12:36   reviews and you can see the reviews in the mobile app and you can see more of them on

00:12:40   the website and it's easier to have a separate window with just your reviews and looking

00:12:43   at them and trying to find a fin that you wanted and eventually you get it and their

00:12:47   size like one two three four five and I have no idea what one two three four five mean.

00:12:50   And so then I want to look at the little answer question and answers that I was on

00:12:53   added a few years ago someone saying hey how do I find out what the heck size two means what size

00:12:57   shoot is that correspond to oh there's a sizing chart on the people's website and you pick up

00:13:00   the people's website you have the sizing chart and like I'm the experience of figuring out what

00:13:05   swim fin to buy what size to buy it in like that is the experience that I need the website for

00:13:11   because on the app I it was harder to get that information I can't compare two things at once

00:13:16   I don't know if I would even have found the sizing chart thing, which was like a mouseover

00:13:20   thing that made this little table appear on the site that I actually found it on.

00:13:23   That mouseover wouldn't even have worked on mobile.

00:13:26   All that information that I know is there.

00:13:28   Amazon provides me a way to find the answers to these questions, which is one of the reasons

00:13:32   I'm shopping on Amazon, all these features that they added.

00:13:35   When I'm doing it in the app, all it says is, "Here's the thing.

00:13:38   Here's the price.

00:13:39   Pick a size from a pop-up menu and then read the reviews here."

00:13:43   I'm missing features.

00:13:45   And I feel like that makes Amazon less valuable to me if they try it, because it's not cut

00:13:48   and dried.

00:13:49   I'm not just like ordering my next run of paper towels from Amazon to come in.

00:13:52   It's like research for something I want to buy.

00:13:55   And it's the type of research that's way easier to do online.

00:13:57   I'm not going to go to 17 different sporting goods stores and have to do it at a time when

00:14:01   I can drag my kids there so they can try on swim fins and everything.

00:14:04   I know their shoe size.

00:14:05   I've got to find a swim fin that people say is pretty good, that it's not a piece of junk,

00:14:08   that has a reasonable price, that it will ship in a reasonable amount of time, that

00:14:11   is sized the way I want it.

00:14:13   And I guess what I'm saying is it's not app versus web that bothers me, it's features.

00:14:18   If you make a web application, or if you make an iOS application that, for example, runs

00:14:24   on the iPad and gives a fancier, more feature-filled purchase experience than the phone version

00:14:31   does, I would probably be all on board with that.

00:14:33   I'm not tied to the web because I specifically like the web.

00:14:36   I'm more tied to having a big screen where I can look at lots of things at the same time,

00:14:40   and having access to all the features

00:14:41   that these e-commerce sites have added over the years

00:14:43   that are useful for figuring out

00:14:45   what the hell you wanna buy.

00:14:46   - Well, and that's exactly it.

00:14:47   You know, obviously in the case of us

00:14:49   looking up stuff on Amazon,

00:14:50   looking at reviews and specs and stuff,

00:14:52   Amazon was built for the web first.

00:14:55   And the web is probably still their biggest platform,

00:14:57   but I think it's clear to see the trend lines here

00:15:01   where more and more activity and browsing and computing

00:15:05   and purchasing is being done on mobile

00:15:07   And so much of that is being done in apps, not on websites.

00:15:11   And that number seems to be increasing.

00:15:13   And if you look at the store Flipkart in India,

00:15:17   their customer base is dramatically increasing it.

00:15:21   And that could have to do with differences

00:15:23   in cell phone adoption versus computer adoption

00:15:25   in India versus here.

00:15:26   But for the most part, I think we're seeing

00:15:28   the same general trend everywhere,

00:15:29   which is mobile is taking over big time,

00:15:32   and apps on mobile are way more important

00:15:34   websites on mobile for the most part today. And that trend is only going more in that

00:15:39   direction. It's not like we're waiting for the web to catch up on mobile. I think the

00:15:43   web is not going to catch up on mobile. But there's probably going to be both website,

00:15:48   web stores and app stores for most major retailers for a long time. The main problems you have,

00:15:53   as you said, this is an implementation detail just among the Amazon app today versus the

00:15:57   Amazon website today. That's going to change over time. They're going to make the app better.

00:16:02   They're going to make more stuff possible in the app,

00:16:04   but they're gonna make stuff better in the app

00:16:06   because that's where they should be pouring their attention

00:16:09   as people use it more.

00:16:11   And Amazon's good about that.

00:16:12   They will do it.

00:16:14   - Yeah, I think that you're definitely in the popular crowd

00:16:18   in thinking that the app is the way to go.

00:16:21   And I think that Jon and I are kind of clinging

00:16:24   to our old-timey ways, but I just,

00:16:28   I don't like to have any app on my phone

00:16:32   that I either don't use regularly

00:16:36   or don't absolutely need in a pinch.

00:16:38   Like for example, Uber, I don't use regularly,

00:16:40   but man, when I need it, I want it to be there.

00:16:43   And the Amazon app, like Jon has said,

00:16:45   doesn't really help me in any way that I use anyway,

00:16:49   and it hurts me in that it prevents me

00:16:52   from doing things like having multiple tabs open

00:16:53   and things like that.

00:16:55   - And like I said, I don't think it's old timey versus new.

00:16:58   I think it's features and a good example of this is the App Store which has a web interface, but it's terrible

00:17:03   No one like you can't actually do it from the web

00:17:05   But say you could like you know what the web if you and land on one of the web pages for the App Store

00:17:09   There's like nothing there. You can't do anything. It's just like this shell of a thing

00:17:12   That's a case where the application has more features and even though it's a website and even though it's a big window and you can

00:17:18   Have multiple ones open at once you would never want to do that because the features that you care about

00:17:21   Like even just like reading more than three reviews

00:17:24   I think the web ones just show like an abbreviated version of a couple of reviews or whatever

00:17:27   the app has more features there.

00:17:29   And so it's not so much app versus web,

00:17:31   it's like, where are the features?

00:17:33   And maybe it's just like, okay,

00:17:34   Amazon was born on the web and their app is crappy,

00:17:38   and newer stores that are more app native

00:17:40   will do a better job.

00:17:42   I could see that happening,

00:17:43   but the second level problem is what Casey was talking about,

00:17:46   why he doesn't wanna have a million stores on his phone.

00:17:48   Like the web, you put Safari there

00:17:50   and you get Denny Web Store.

00:17:52   And this actually is a reason

00:17:55   that retailers probably love apps.

00:17:56   the apps you're not going to have an app for every store you are going to

00:17:58   necessarily be limited by the store apps that are on your device if you're in

00:18:03   like an app mindset like I buy things through apps if you don't find yourself

00:18:07   buying things through Safari it's kind of like well I can go to Target but I can't

00:18:12   go to Kmart because there's no Kmart in my town like the other one is really

00:18:16   far away it's like well you know Kmart exists and you know you can get there

00:18:19   but you know convenience sake you're gonna go to the one that's close to you

00:18:22   If you only have five apps on your phone, you're like, well, I could buy this thing at some other location

00:18:27   But I don't actually have that app on my phone. I have this app on my phone. So let me do it

00:18:30   I'm not gonna go to the App Store and download like you can't download every retailer's app. So

00:18:34   Retailers getting their apps onto your phone because once you have like say you have uber do you also have the lift app?

00:18:40   Do you also have the whatever, you know competitor to the uber is gonna come out in the future?

00:18:43   You're gonna have 17 different apps for getting rides

00:18:45   You're gonna pick maybe one or two and once those one or two are on your phone

00:18:49   it's harder for the competitor to get their app on your phone because you already feel like you have that need covered whereas if they

00:18:55   Were all just websites every time you launch Safari

00:18:57   It's up for grabs where you end up based on like a Google search or you know a bookmark or whatever

00:19:01   Well, but a lot of that applies to the web too

00:19:03   I mean like you like having having your credit cards saved in a site having a site having a good online purchase

00:19:10   Experience or a good online store

00:19:12   I mean there there are so many things that like that

00:19:14   I just buy on Amazon because I used to buy them on their vendors site

00:19:18   but their vendor site is slow and awful.

00:19:20   And I just, it's so much easier to just order it from Amazon,

00:19:23   so I just do it there.

00:19:24   Like there are these same kind of like lock-in style effects

00:19:29   on the web, that isn't really that exclusive.

00:19:32   Yeah, I mean, it takes a little bit of a step.

00:19:34   - But I think in a web, you'll do a search though.

00:19:36   Like you'll do a search for something,

00:19:38   like you don't know where you wanna buy something.

00:19:39   Like you won't feel yourself limited to,

00:19:42   if you're starting in a store,

00:19:44   you've already chosen practically where you're gonna buy it.

00:19:46   Whereas if you're starting on the web,

00:19:48   You don't know where you're going to buy it yet.

00:19:50   You're just trying to see what's out there, what kind of options are out there.

00:19:53   Even something like the sweet home where you're like, I don't know anything about whatever

00:19:56   it is, like humidifiers or something.

00:20:01   I'm going to find out what is a good humidifier to buy.

00:20:04   If you start that by launching an app, you've already practically decided where you're going

00:20:08   to buy it and you're just going to say what seven humidifiers does Amazon have.

00:20:11   If you did a Google search, you might end up on Marco's humidifier thing, you might

00:20:14   end up on the sweet home or whatever, and that could leave you to a store eventually,

00:20:17   but you would be learning about what to buy. I don't know. I see advantages to the app

00:20:24   approach. If you do the app well, I see advantages for the vendors, but I see a lot of downsides

00:20:29   for sort of the old-school unconscious lock-in of the stores that are actually near your

00:20:34   house influence where you buy stuff in the pre-internet days.

00:20:37   Sure, but I think my yellow page remark earlier applies to a larger degree here, which is

00:20:44   like if you look at the world today, apps and web, et cetera, right now do you think

00:20:51   you could launch a new restaurant or a new shop in a town without having an entry in

00:20:56   the Yellow Pages?

00:20:57   But the Yellow Pages was just a directory. Like you weren't actually going there, you

00:21:01   know?

00:21:02   Well, but okay, but a lot of people when they would need a certain type of business or be

00:21:06   searching for a type of store or a type of business person, they would look in the Yellow

00:21:11   Pages for a long time.

00:21:12   And so--

00:21:13   - Yeah, web search replaced that though.

00:21:15   - Well, so what I'm saying is, this is a metaphor, John,

00:21:17   this is a reference.

00:21:18   (laughing)

00:21:19   So what I'm saying is that at some point,

00:21:22   you know, today you can launch something new

00:21:24   and you don't really have to think about

00:21:26   placement in the Yellow Pages or buying an ad there

00:21:28   because enough people find stuff on the web now

00:21:31   that it's probably not even worth your time

00:21:33   to make an entry in the Yellow Pages

00:21:34   for your business anymore.

00:21:35   It's very possible there will come a time where

00:21:38   a major retailer, or any size retailer,

00:21:42   where so few people are buying stuff on web pages

00:21:46   versus so many buying stuff in apps

00:21:48   that when they have to decide how to allocate

00:21:50   their resources and whether to have only an app

00:21:53   or only a website or both,

00:21:56   there can come a time if this trend continues

00:21:59   where the website is just not worth it

00:22:01   to build and maintain for them.

00:22:03   - So you're saying that their website

00:22:05   is like the Yellow Pages.

00:22:06   - I'm saying we're heading in a direction

00:22:08   where websites might become as relevant

00:22:11   as the Yellow Pages are today.

00:22:13   And I don't know that we'll ever get there,

00:22:14   but that is the direction I think that we are heading in.

00:22:17   - I don't think that answers the search question, though.

00:22:19   When you're, I mean, just think of like,

00:22:21   what are the good restaurants in this area, right?

00:22:24   Like, when you don't already know

00:22:25   where you're going to end up,

00:22:27   because that's the whole thing.

00:22:28   With a bunch of apps, you are picking a store,

00:22:30   but what if you have no idea where you're gonna end up,

00:22:32   or you just wanna know, hey, what's around here,

00:22:34   or what's out there that we can try?

00:22:35   You need some way to find what's out there,

00:22:39   and you're not gonna do it.

00:22:40   You're certainly not gonna do it by searching the App Store.

00:22:42   You're not gonna go to the App Store

00:22:43   and type restaurant to find, I mean, just think of it.

00:22:46   Think about it, if restaurants had no websites,

00:22:49   they only had apps, and even in your own area

00:22:51   where you live, you just wanna know,

00:22:52   hey, have any new restaurants opened in this area?

00:22:54   You gonna go to the App Store and try to find

00:22:56   a restaurant app for a restaurant near you?

00:22:58   Like the App Store can't even let you find

00:23:00   Angry Birds reliably.

00:23:01   - Well, no, you might search the App Store for restaurants

00:23:04   and find something like Yelp,

00:23:06   if you didn't already know about it,

00:23:07   which is probably unlikely.

00:23:10   The App Store is different.

00:23:12   The app paradigm of using apps to interact

00:23:14   with computing things and buy things,

00:23:16   just like when you move to the web,

00:23:17   things were different in a lot of ways.

00:23:19   When, in this move to apps,

00:23:21   things aren't all gonna work the same way,

00:23:23   just certain things will take their place.

00:23:25   So in your case, you're saying,

00:23:27   how do you, are you gonna search for restaurants

00:23:29   in the App Store?

00:23:30   No, you're gonna open up the Yelp app

00:23:31   and search for restaurants there.

00:23:32   Like there's gonna be all these silos.

00:23:34   If you wanna buy an object that's sold in stores usually,

00:23:37   you're gonna go to Amazon or whatever.

00:23:38   If you want to find restaurants,

00:23:40   you're gonna go to Yelp and something like that.

00:23:42   If you want a taxi, you're gonna open your taxi app,

00:23:44   whichever one that might be that you choose in your area.

00:23:47   That is the interaction paradigm on mobile.

00:23:51   You don't start at a universal search box

00:23:54   and get shown tons of spam.

00:23:57   - Most of these apps you're talking about

00:23:58   are just web views inside a container anyway.

00:24:00   - Doesn't matter.

00:24:02   - But what I'm saying is it's making it worse

00:24:04   because it's good for the people

00:24:07   who are selling these things

00:24:08   because they're like, oh, people will be locked in

00:24:09   because they'll have their app on our phone

00:24:11   and they'll just use their app.

00:24:12   But it's bad for us because people are taking

00:24:14   what used to be sort of on a more level playing field

00:24:18   and confining it inside these little containers

00:24:21   and having their own icons on our home screens

00:24:22   and it just clutters everything up

00:24:23   so it makes everything worse and one place's app

00:24:27   might not be as good as another place's app

00:24:28   and so on and so forth just for the container stuff

00:24:30   let alone what's inside the page.

00:24:31   It's just-- - Well, the same applies

00:24:32   to websites there.

00:24:33   I mean, it is going to be different.

00:24:35   We know that.

00:24:36   It isn't necessarily worse in every way.

00:24:38   It's better in some ways.

00:24:40   It's just, it's different.

00:24:41   - It's better for the vendors.

00:24:43   How is it better for us?

00:24:45   - Things load fast, I don't know.

00:24:48   - No, they don't.

00:24:49   It's just a web view inside an app.

00:24:50   You gotta work with the app to launch the thing.

00:24:51   I think it's just not better for us.

00:24:53   Unless, I mean, unless it's artificially done.

00:24:56   Like, it's better for us in the App Store

00:24:57   because Apple's web version of the App Store is just so bad.

00:25:00   That's one way they can make it better

00:25:02   is everyone make your websites way, way worse

00:25:04   until the app version of it wins because the websites are basically useless.

00:25:08   Oh, they're doing a great job of that already. Websites today are terrible.

00:25:11   Well, the Amazon versus the Apple one, they're not doing it. I've never used a

00:25:14   Flipkart thing, so I can't say. I mean, let's think of some... What's one thing that you

00:25:17   routinely buy through an app that you don't buy through a website? I guess

00:25:20   Instagram, I mean, it's not buying a thing, but they have a website too, but it sucks.

00:25:25   Uber, I guess, do they even have a website? Probably not. That's app only, right?

00:25:28   I have no idea.

00:25:29   What else can you think of that is a better experience of buying through an app

00:25:33   than through the equivalent website.

00:25:36   - The Apple Store app is pretty good.

00:25:38   - Yeah, I would say that I don't necessarily think

00:25:41   it's better, 'cause you can't do everything.

00:25:45   You know, Apple's website is functional,

00:25:48   but mediocre in a lot of ways,

00:25:51   for the end of the store part.

00:25:52   It works, you know, most of the time.

00:25:54   It doesn't usually show errors or anything,

00:25:55   but the app is good enough, and the app actually is faster

00:26:00   because it isn't loading all the Chrome and Stylus sheets.

00:26:03   It seems to access some kind of separate API

00:26:05   that doesn't go down as much

00:26:07   during the major product launches.

00:26:09   And it has Touch ID Apple Pay for checking out,

00:26:12   which is awesome.

00:26:13   - It has more than that though, right?

00:26:14   Because it has Genius Reservations,

00:26:16   if not creation of, then check in for.

00:26:21   It has EasySteal or whatever it's called

00:26:23   where you scan the barcode and then pay through the app

00:26:26   and walk out of the store.

00:26:28   And if you're like me, you're holding your iPhone up

00:26:30   to anyone who is looking anywhere near your direction

00:26:32   to show that you've actually paid for this thing,

00:26:34   that it looks like you're stealing.

00:26:36   It has some functionality,

00:26:38   and this comes back to what Jon was saying earlier,

00:26:40   it has functionality that you can't get through the website,

00:26:42   and that's, I think, in large part,

00:26:44   why I like the Apple Store app so much.

00:26:47   - Oh, you know what else also, Jon?

00:26:49   I can buy things on the Amazon app

00:26:50   without ever entering a password,

00:26:51   because I entered it once and said save it,

00:26:53   and on the web, that doesn't quite work.

00:26:54   On the web, you always have to go through the login form

00:26:56   and you're buying something.

00:26:58   And I know there's ways that they can do it without that,

00:27:00   but the fact is they don't.

00:27:01   So, you know, that's another thing, it's faster.

00:27:04   If you know what you're looking for,

00:27:06   an app shopping experience can be a lot faster.

00:27:09   You know, if you can go into it, if it has decent search

00:27:12   and you can jump right there and hit the checkout,

00:27:13   like, and if there's any steps they can skip

00:27:16   by the security of the phone, like touch ID for Apple Pay

00:27:18   or skipping passwords, it can be faster.

00:27:21   In many cases, it is faster.

00:27:22   What you're describing, Jon, about wanting to open up

00:27:25   a bunch of tabs and do research side by side,

00:27:27   that is worse, you're right.

00:27:28   The web is probably always gonna be

00:27:29   the better platform for that.

00:27:30   But I just mean like structurally, is it worse to have a bunch of apps, like that they're

00:27:35   pinning you down in artificial ways, rather than you thinking that it's a greenfield and

00:27:41   you have access to all the world's vendors.

00:27:43   You are necessarily limited to the icons that you have put on your phone, and there's some

00:27:47   inertia to dislodging those icons or adding a new one or remembering which app or grouping

00:27:53   them together.

00:27:54   Like I said, how many different apps are you going to have to do the same job as Uber does?

00:27:57   Whereas if Uber was not an app-native platform, I feel like it is constraining in a way that

00:28:03   benefits the vendors and doesn't benefit consumers for mostly no good reason.

00:28:08   There's a few reasons, like you said, the biometrics things or whatever, but again,

00:28:11   Amazon has the one-click stuff and really that's not that big of a hurdle.

00:28:18   Checking out at Amazon, I feel like is below the threshold where Touch ID, it's cool for

00:28:23   us to be able to do it, but most people, they just click, click, click and go through.

00:28:27   I know a lot of people like to have, are afraid to turn on one click because it's too fast.

00:28:33   That was already too fast and it's not even biometric.

00:28:36   And I think both of you were startled by how easy it was to drop however many hundred dollars

00:28:40   on an Apple Watch just by going tap, tap, done.

00:28:44   So good for vendors, maybe not good.

00:28:46   But anyway, I was thinking about which companies do have better apps than websites.

00:28:52   And so it's companies that started sort of the app world like Uber or Instagram.

00:28:57   They were always app first, their websites, if they existed at all, are afterthoughts.

00:29:00   So their apps are better, right?

00:29:02   It's companies that have always been terrible at the web, like Apple.

00:29:05   I guess that's the explanation.

00:29:06   Why are their apps better than their web versions?

00:29:08   Because they've never really been good at web stuff, and so their apps win.

00:29:13   And then the other companies that either started on the web, like Amazon, or even things like

00:29:17   airlines.

00:29:18   Like, airlines have apps, but their web experiences usually have more features or more ways to

00:29:23   like, you know, research which seats you can do and get a better diagram.

00:29:26   No, if you didn't see this you can enter your number there and do this thing and the app doesn't show you that path

00:29:29   Right things you can only do from the website that you can't do from the app airlines. Everything sucks

00:29:33   Yeah, they're bad at everything but still their apps are more feature poor than their website

00:29:39   It's like oh when you're making your reservations make sure you either go through the website because on the app

00:29:43   You don't get this option match option and you want to do this one because you can get more legroom for less cost or whatever

00:29:48   like

00:29:49   It's a weird split and I don't know especially for the big ones

00:29:53   like, you know, Amazon, eBay, things that have some critical mass that's difficult to overcome,

00:29:58   are they perpetually going to have worse apps than their websites? Will they figure it out

00:30:03   and reverse it? Or is it only the new companies like, you know, I'm not gonna think besides Uber

00:30:09   and Instagram, some other like companies that came of age in the app era, where they never really

00:30:13   considered websites and their whole product was always an app? All right, we should plug a new

00:30:21   website that has come out since I believe the last time we recorded.

00:30:26   This is Cosmodrome by Brianna Wu.

00:30:28   Jon, do you want to tell us a little about this?

00:30:30   Jon Streeter Yeah, this is a link list style site, as she

00:30:34   calls it, sort of modeled on Daring Fireball, only the—it's just going to be a bunch

00:30:38   of links, not a bunch of original writing there for the most part.

00:30:40   And so what's the big deal about that?

00:30:42   There's a million sites that have a bunch of technology links and stuff.

00:30:45   This one is like any site that has a single person behind it.

00:30:48   The idea is the voice of the person comes through.

00:30:50   And this is Brianna's voice, and she's intentionally trying to put in links that have the best content

00:30:55   from tech and gaming, because she obviously runs a gaming company, and she's also into

00:30:59   tech so it's not just going to be like, you know, regular tech industry stuff but mixed

00:31:04   in with game industry stuff.

00:31:05   And she's trying to amplify voices of women that she respects and women in the industry.

00:31:10   So she's got an introductory post explaining what Kazmaadrome was about.

00:31:13   You can see it in the show notes.

00:31:15   I find myself, and this is another example of apps versus the web I suppose, when I saw

00:31:20   that this link thing was there, I'm like, I'm never going to see anything on that site

00:31:26   unless it has a Twitter account.

00:31:27   Because that's how I see all of my links.

00:31:29   I follow the Twitter accounts that belong to like Marco.org and Daring Fireball and

00:31:32   Casey's site.

00:31:33   Wait, you're one of those?

00:31:34   Yes, I don't like, RSS, Twitter has just eaten RSS in my life.

00:31:38   I subscribe to the Twitter accounts of all these sites.

00:31:42   And I still have an RSS reader, I still use Reader with two Es on the iPad to read news,

00:31:49   but it's like a different set of things.

00:31:50   I have the things I use RSS feeds for, and I have the things that get to be in my Twitter

00:31:54   feed.

00:31:55   And obviously the Twitter feeds, it's a smaller number of sites, just the important ones.

00:31:59   But yeah, I am now basically in the Twitter app.

00:32:02   How do I see that when you posted something that we're going to talk about later in the

00:32:05   show?

00:32:06   How did I see that?

00:32:07   I see it on Twitter.

00:32:08   How did I read it?

00:32:09   By following on Twitter.

00:32:10   I would have insta-papered it from Twitter and

00:32:13   I don't think I ever go to your site to see if there's anything new on your site

00:32:17   And I don't think your site is in my RSS feeds anymore because it's the type of site that as soon as something is published

00:32:23   I want to know about it immediately and I do because it's on Twitter and I keep up with my Twitter. So anyway

00:32:27   Cosmodrome blog is a Twitter handle. We will put a link to the introductory post in the show notes. Check it out

00:32:32   Yeah, I've been following it since she tweeted it. It's very good

00:32:36   Yeah, you know I'm still stuck on John saying that you are one of those people that gets all your links from Twitter

00:32:41   Not all my links

00:32:42   But the ones that like if I want to know as soon as something is posted or you know or like

00:32:46   Especially with a link list thing you're not gonna read everything you say is am I interested in following that link or not?

00:32:51   I mean

00:32:51   It's not it's not the words of somebody writing something down a lot of blogs are a mix like Margo does some link posts and he

00:32:56   Does some post on his own right so there's a handful of things that I subscribe to in that way on Twitter

00:33:00   and I will know as soon as someone post something on those things because I

00:33:04   I keep up with Twitter, right?

00:33:08   But RSS is for "Let me see the last whatever umpteen news stories from Ars Technica."

00:33:15   RSS, I don't subscribe to the giant Ars Technica Twitter, I don't even know if they have one.

00:33:20   If there was a Twitter feed that showed everything that RSS posted, there's no way I would subscribe

00:33:23   to that.

00:33:24   It would have filled my feed, I would never look at anything.

00:33:25   I use my RSS reader for that, but then you can just go boop, boop, boop, and look at all

00:33:28   of them at the same time and view them more quickly and so on and so forth.

00:33:31   - Yeah, the only such Twitter account that I follow,

00:33:36   like I don't follow Marco or org on Twitter,

00:33:39   it's in my RSS feeder.

00:33:40   I don't follow Daring Fireball on Twitter,

00:33:42   it's in my RSS reader.

00:33:44   But I follow my own to make sure things get tweeted

00:33:46   and that's it.

00:33:47   - You should follow Hypercritical because once a year,

00:33:49   maybe, when something posts,

00:33:50   you wanna know about it right away.

00:33:51   - You know what's really great to follow

00:33:53   a bunch of sites like that?

00:33:55   RSS readers.

00:33:57   - Yeah, agreed.

00:33:57   - No, but you'll never notice it in the RSS reader.

00:33:59   you'll never even look at that section of the RSS reader.

00:34:02   - Okay, here's your problem right here.

00:34:05   RSS readers, if you have so many subscriptions

00:34:09   that you are missing items constantly

00:34:11   because they're buried in a different section,

00:34:14   you have too many subscriptions.

00:34:15   - You have a lot of subscriptions.

00:34:18   I do, I don't keep, I used to actually keep up with RSS,

00:34:21   but that was like years ago, right?

00:34:23   I wasn't a completionist,

00:34:24   but I was a Marcus Red completionist

00:34:26   in the glory days of the newswire.

00:34:29   I had tons of feeds and at the very least every day

00:34:32   I would decide that I'm not going to read something.

00:34:35   Like it was, I would go through everything that's there

00:34:37   and either say, I am going to read that

00:34:39   or I'm not going to read that.

00:34:40   And I would read the things that I'm going to read

00:34:41   and I would, you know, most of the stuff

00:34:42   you're not reading, right?

00:34:43   But that passed, I don't know why that passed.

00:34:45   That passed just, I guess,

00:34:46   because the volume just increased.

00:34:48   Like I didn't even follow that many more feeds,

00:34:50   but the volume of all the feeds increased.

00:34:51   Like think of what the Ars Technica RSS feed was

00:34:54   when I first followed it.

00:34:55   It was like a couple of posts a day.

00:34:57   Now it's like a fire hose and you just multiply that

00:34:59   for every site that I followed.

00:35:01   - Right, so unsubscribe because you're not really

00:35:02   reading them all.

00:35:03   - Well, I'm not a completionist anymore, I don't care.

00:35:05   Like I go to it when I go there and you know,

00:35:08   I just mark huge spots as read because it's like

00:35:12   all out of date info but I find the few, yeah,

00:35:14   I still subscribe to a lot of things but most of the things

00:35:17   I actually care about are on Twitter and that's only

00:35:20   maybe five, six sites.

00:35:22   - See, this is why we can't get through follow up

00:35:25   or topics in a reasonable amount of time

00:35:27   because everything that we do,

00:35:29   we discover something about each other

00:35:31   that is worth discussing,

00:35:33   and we have to nitpick it to death.

00:35:35   - Pretty much.

00:35:35   - Follow-up already ended once we ended the Cosmodrome thing

00:35:40   and then we were just talking about other stuff.

00:35:42   - I love doing this show with you guys.

00:35:44   (laughing)

00:35:45   All right, our first sponsor, it's a new sponsor this week,

00:35:48   it is Bushel, B-U-S-H-E-L, bushel.com/atp.

00:35:53   So Bushel, this is really interesting.

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00:35:59   and you have a company, there's all these configuration

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00:36:04   of iOS devices, Macs, you can use configuration profiles

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00:36:28   and it lets anyone easily manage Apple devices

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00:36:32   This includes iOS devices, iPhones, iPads,

00:36:34   iPod touches, John, and even Macs.

00:36:37   I didn't even know Macs could do this stuff, but they can.

00:36:40   So, Bushell lets you easily set up and protect Apple devices

00:36:43   that you distribute to your team,

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00:36:53   This is pretty cool.

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00:37:09   You can also install work apps,

00:37:11   any apps from the App Store,

00:37:12   you can install them to every device all at once.

00:37:16   You can also enable settings that will separate

00:37:19   and protect your team's personal data and personal apps

00:37:22   from their work data from your company.

00:37:24   And that way, another great feature is that

00:37:27   if a device is ever lost or stolen,

00:37:30   you can remotely lock it or you can completely wipe

00:37:32   all the company data portion off of it remotely.

00:37:35   Really cool stuff.

00:37:37   They have a device inventory section.

00:37:38   You can see capacities.

00:37:40   You can see which user is using which device,

00:37:42   which apps you've installed on devices, and much more.

00:37:45   You can even configure your company-owned devices

00:37:47   through Bushell without having to physically

00:37:48   touch them first.

00:37:49   That's pretty cool.

00:37:50   basically get a box, give it to somebody shrink wrapped,

00:37:53   and have already configured the device

00:37:55   so that when they take it out, it's all set up.

00:37:57   Really cool stuff.

00:37:58   With Bushell, you can do all this and much more

00:38:01   all yourself without an IT department.

00:38:04   It's all integrated into one seamless,

00:38:05   fully responsive web interface

00:38:08   so you can manage your company's Apple devices

00:38:09   wherever you want, wherever you are.

00:38:11   Remember, this is both iOS devices and Macs,

00:38:13   iPad, iPhone, iPod Touch, and Mac.

00:38:16   Bushell makes the complex simple

00:38:18   so you can focus on what matters.

00:38:20   Your first three devices, if you're only managing

00:38:22   three devices or fewer, that's free forever.

00:38:25   And if you wanna add more than three devices,

00:38:28   it's just $2 per month per device after that.

00:38:30   So this is really affordable,

00:38:31   two bucks per month per device past three.

00:38:35   No contracts, no commitments, it's very, very simple,

00:38:38   nice, reasonable pricing.

00:38:40   Learn more at bushel.com/atp, that's B-U-S-H-E-L.com/atp.

00:38:45   This sounds really cool, so thanks a lot to Bushel

00:38:48   or sponsoring, you know, I even think like,

00:38:50   beyond Workplace, you don't even wanna just do this yourself

00:38:53   for your own devices or your family's devices.

00:38:55   There's so many good uses for this.

00:38:57   So thanks a lot, Bushell, bushell.com/atp.

00:39:00   - All right, so in the last, what, 24 hours,

00:39:04   we have our first Apple Watch OS update.

00:39:08   So we are now on Apple Watch 1.0.1.

00:39:12   - I believe it's pronounced watch us.

00:39:14   - Watch us, 1.0.1.

00:39:17   I've installed it, Marco, I presume you've installed it as well?

00:39:20   I have.

00:39:21   Nothing happened.

00:39:22   It was glorious.

00:39:23   I'm disappointed they didn't call it a firmware update.

00:39:25   Remember those days?

00:39:26   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:39:27   The iPhone would get a firmware update.

00:39:30   It was an OS update in all the same ways that an OS ever was, but they hadn't yet decided

00:39:34   to call it an OS because, hey, it couldn't even run apps, right?

00:39:36   It was a firmware update.

00:39:37   Well, it's like a watch firmware.

00:39:38   I guess the watch can run apps, but yeah.

00:39:40   Well, in any case, I just wanted to point out a couple of initial impressions I had.

00:39:45   I've talked to a handful of people,

00:39:47   and a lot of us agreed that third-party apps and glances,

00:39:52   especially, just feel quicker.

00:39:55   I have no concrete evidence of this.

00:39:57   I have no quantitative evidence of this,

00:40:00   but it just feels quicker to me.

00:40:01   Marco, would you say that's the case?

00:40:02   - I think so.

00:40:03   I mean, it was hard to tell initially,

00:40:05   because in the previous 1.0 version,

00:40:09   after a clean reboot, things would be faster

00:40:11   and more responsive for a while.

00:40:13   So, you know, after you install the update,

00:40:15   you have a clean reboot, so it would feel fast immediately.

00:40:18   So far though, in the what, day and a half

00:40:20   that we've had it so far,

00:40:22   I have not had an app lock up permanently forever.

00:40:25   I have not seen an infinite spinner.

00:40:27   And that is, part of that is just 'cause I've used,

00:40:30   I'm using very few apps now,

00:40:31   but it does seem like they have improved it.

00:40:34   So I give this a thumbs up.

00:40:37   - Yeah, I agree.

00:40:38   The only thing that I'm a little shady on

00:40:40   is I went for a walk earlier tonight,

00:40:43   And what I did was I went to the exercise app,

00:40:47   I said I'm going for an outdoor walk,

00:40:49   and I started walking.

00:40:51   And by no means am I doing a super mega power walk

00:40:56   or anything like that, but we were,

00:40:57   Aaron and Declan and I were walking reasonably briskly.

00:41:01   And when I got back from this walk

00:41:04   that was like two and a half miles or something like that

00:41:06   and lasted roughly 15 minutes,

00:41:09   I got back and I was credited

00:41:11   with something like 15 minutes of walking.

00:41:14   And in 1.0.0, I don't remember that having

00:41:17   ever been the case, that if I walked for 50 minutes,

00:41:20   I would get credit for 15 minutes of exercise.

00:41:22   - Well, was that credit for 15 minutes

00:41:24   of elevated heart rate?

00:41:26   - Well, and that's exactly what I was going to say,

00:41:28   is this all could be that I was cheating the system

00:41:32   in 1.0.0, and I shouldn't have been getting credit

00:41:35   because I wasn't getting my heart pumping quick enough

00:41:39   to earn that credit.

00:41:40   And now in 1.0.1, maybe the heart rate detection is more frequent or maybe it's just better.

00:41:47   In one way or another, maybe I just don't deserve credit for more than 15 minutes out

00:41:52   of 50.

00:41:53   But it is different than 1.0.0.

00:41:55   And last night, right after I had done my upgrade, I went for a walk.

00:42:00   And I could swear that for a little while during that walk, my heart rate read 70.

00:42:06   And I am out of shape enough that I can assure you, and I was walking quickly enough, that

00:42:09   I assure you my heart rate was probably not 70. So this is all very very

00:42:15   anecdotal and it very well could be user ineptitude on my part since I wasn't

00:42:20   walking quickly enough but I don't know it just seems like that got that the

00:42:25   heart rate related things got a little bit worse but what I'd like to do is

00:42:31   maybe tomorrow I'll really try to amp up the speed and see if that makes a

00:42:34   difference. Yeah give it a shot also try try giving a good wipe off to the disk

00:42:39   on the back of the watch.

00:42:40   I had an issue today where on my morning walk this morning,

00:42:45   the watch kept locking as if I had taken it off.

00:42:49   - Oh, that's interesting.

00:42:50   - And so I assumed, oh, the sensor must be cloudy

00:42:52   or whatever, so I wiped it off

00:42:53   and I haven't seen the problem again.

00:42:54   It did it a few times in the same walk

00:42:57   and the Workout app kept crashing and yeah, it was not good.

00:43:00   But then I took it off later, wiped it off

00:43:01   and I haven't seen it since.

00:43:02   So it could just be that, who knows?

00:43:04   - Also shave your arm hair.

00:43:06   (laughs)

00:43:06   - Well, I'm not a gorilla like you are, Jon,

00:43:09   But I will keep that in mind.

00:43:10   So John, how are you enjoying watchOS 1.0.1?

00:43:13   Oh, it's great.

00:43:14   I love seeing screenshots of people updating their OS on one device by running an update

00:43:18   on another device and then making sure the watch is in the charger when they do it.

00:43:21   It's very exciting.

00:43:22   I wonder why, like, they were always paranoid about it.

00:43:24   Like, you know, the iPad and iPhone updates used to be like, "Well, you have to have at

00:43:29   least 50% battery power, and if you don't, you have to be connected to power before we'll

00:43:32   run the updater and stuff on the watch."

00:43:34   It's like even more.

00:43:35   like no just unconditional it seemed like from what I read,

00:43:38   connected to the charger period.

00:43:40   - Well I think the reason why, first of all,

00:43:42   keep in mind like if a software update on the watch

00:43:45   goes bad, the recovery options you have are,

00:43:49   as far as we know, pretty limited.

00:43:51   Because there is no, you can't just plug it into iTunes

00:43:53   and hold down two buttons and have it go in DFU mode.

00:43:56   Like we don't know if there's anything

00:43:59   that a home user can do.

00:44:00   - Yeah, there's probably gotta be like a wireless like

00:44:03   put it into recovery mode where it's just looking

00:44:05   for a wireless signal that will signal to it,

00:44:07   okay, I'm about to take you over

00:44:09   and shove a whole new image down your throat?

00:44:11   - Probably, yeah.

00:44:12   And the other thing is, the update,

00:44:15   for me it took a pretty long time.

00:44:16   I would say it probably took 20 minutes.

00:44:18   And during that time, the screen was on the entire time,

00:44:21   showing the progress.

00:44:22   So I think that is probably why they require the power.

00:44:25   Because if you didn't have it powered,

00:44:27   you would slaughter the battery life just doing the update.

00:44:31   - Yeah, not just for the screen,

00:44:31   because it's doing like IO on its little solid state storage

00:44:36   for the whole time, that's all it's doing.

00:44:37   And over the normal course of events,

00:44:39   the watch is not constantly reading or writing

00:44:41   from its disk.

00:44:42   - Exactly.

00:44:43   - All right, we should probably plug something else

00:44:48   that's going on specifically during WWDC week.

00:44:52   So whether or not you happen to be going to San Francisco,

00:44:56   AppCamp for Girls is doing a fundraising happy hour

00:45:00   that is being thrown by WWDC girls.

00:45:04   And that's going on the Wednesday night of WWDC week.

00:45:08   Now, if you're not going to San Francisco that week,

00:45:11   that doesn't mean you can't help out.

00:45:13   And it doesn't mean you can't donate to AppCamp for Girls,

00:45:15   which is a really great organization that seeks to improve

00:45:19   the interest of, increase the interest of young girls

00:45:25   and young women in app development and programming

00:45:29   things of that nature. And so ATP is going to be sponsoring the happy hour. I know I

00:45:36   will at the very least be going there for a little while, if not the entire time. Marco,

00:45:40   I think you are also going Is that true? That's true. Alright, so we will be there for at

00:45:44   least a little while. So if you wanted an excuse to say hi to us, then I would certainly

00:45:49   do so in all likelihood, we'll probably be there the whole time. I just I'm afraid to

00:45:52   guarantee that because WWDC week gets a little crazy. But anyway, but ATP is sponsoring,

00:45:57   We'd love it if you could show up.

00:45:59   Tickets are what, like a $20 suggested donation?

00:46:02   - Yep, and if you can't make it,

00:46:04   you can donate on the same form.

00:46:06   You can just say, all right, you know what,

00:46:07   I can't make it, but here's 10 bucks or whatever.

00:46:09   Please do that if you can't make it.

00:46:10   This is really a fantastic organization

00:46:13   doing fantastic work, and we couldn't possibly

00:46:18   recommend strongly enough that, please support it.

00:46:21   - Yeah, I definitely wrote in a donation

00:46:24   was considerably more than $20 for my ticket. I encourage you if you happen to be going and you

00:46:30   have the means to do so, I encourage you to do the same thing. And just like Marco said, whether or

00:46:34   not you're going to be there, please feel free to donate to AppCamp for Girls. It's a really, really

00:46:38   great organization. And like I said, at the very least, Marco and I will be there to say hi to

00:46:44   everyone and shake a few hands and take selfies if that's your shtick, etc, etc. So please check it

00:46:50   Check it out, we'll put a link in the show notes.

00:46:52   That's AppCamp for Girls, the Wednesday night of WWDC Week.

00:46:55   - And it's evening, it's like 5.30 p.m.

00:46:58   So it doesn't take up your whole night.

00:46:59   It's a happy hour thing, so nothing else is going on

00:47:02   during happy hour, so if you're there,

00:47:04   you can totally make it.

00:47:05   - Yep, exactly.

00:47:06   - Before we leave the topic of WWDC Week,

00:47:09   I also wanna mention the Release Notes podcast

00:47:12   from our friends, Charles Perry and Joe Chaplinsky,

00:47:15   ReleaseNotes.tv.

00:47:16   They did a great episode this week.

00:47:18   episode 105 on WWDC tips and kind of an overview of what's going on that week, what events,

00:47:27   what parties, what other conferences are going on. Our friend Jesse Char is putting on a

00:47:32   conference called Layers which looks fantastic. There's so many good big names that are going

00:47:37   to be speaking there. I actually bought a ticket to that. I'm going to be basically

00:47:40   balancing both, attending both WWDC and that. It looks amazing. That's bringyourlayers.com

00:47:46   I think, and yeah, the layers conference looks great.

00:47:50   There's also AltConf, which also has an amazing speaker line.

00:47:53   Now, there is so much going on that week

00:47:56   that I almost feel like if you don't have a ticket,

00:47:59   you have more options.

00:48:01   - Yeah, it's really weird that way.

00:48:02   - There's so much going on,

00:48:03   so definitely check out those conferences.

00:48:05   Check out the Release Notes podcast.

00:48:07   They did a much better job than we will

00:48:08   of going over all the options that you have.

00:48:12   - It's bad enough that WWDC is multitrack,

00:48:14   and you can't actually be like, some sessions now,

00:48:17   the entirety of that week is multi-conference, multi-track.

00:48:20   (laughing)

00:48:21   And you are doing it, you Marco,

00:48:23   have a ticket to both Layers and WWDC

00:48:26   and you can't be in both places at once,

00:48:27   so on certain days, you'll be deciding,

00:48:30   I'm gonna be Layers in the morning

00:48:31   and here in the afternoon or whatever.

00:48:33   - Yeah.

00:48:34   - And that's before even considering multiple tracks.

00:48:35   Is Layers multi-track or single?

00:48:37   - I believe it's single.

00:48:38   - All right, so it's not single at least,

00:48:39   but then WWDC was multi, anyway,

00:48:41   too much stuff jammed into one week.

00:48:43   But this is a great problem to have.

00:48:44   I mean, it's much better than, you know,

00:48:47   what would have happened if Marco and I

00:48:48   didn't get tickets to WWDC

00:48:50   and we wanted to go to San Francisco anyway.

00:48:52   I mean, I'm sure we would have found something useful to do

00:48:55   during the daytime when we weren't at the conference,

00:48:59   but now we have all sorts of options that were,

00:49:01   hypothetically, we would have had all sorts of options

00:49:04   of things to do.

00:49:04   And that's kind of exciting because one thing I feared

00:49:07   is that over the years, as less and less of us

00:49:10   win the lottery and are able to go to WWDC,

00:49:13   conference, I was wondering if, you know, would I go to San Francisco during that week

00:49:19   in future years if I didn't have a ticket to WWDC? And if things like Layers and AltCon

00:49:25   for going on, then heck yeah I will. I mean, that's awesome. So this is really exciting

00:49:29   and I'm really thrilled that people in the community are stepping up to make this even

00:49:35   more inclusive for those who don't have a ticket to the big show. So I'm really stoked.

00:49:41   - Yeah, this is really great work that the other organizers are putting on. There's even

00:49:45   like, on release night they were talking about how they're hosting a viewing room as part

00:49:50   of Alt Conf in a big theater where you can go and watch the live streams and watch session

00:49:55   videos as they're released. So like if you want, if you don't have a ticket but you're

00:49:58   gonna be there and you want to do, and you want to see like the live stuff and you want

00:50:03   to watch the sessions, they're setting up a room that everyone can watch it in. It's

00:50:07   amazing, like, and they aren't the only ones doing this. A lot of people do viewing parties,

00:50:10   get together with a projector to watch a live stream

00:50:14   or whatever, so many people do this kind of stuff.

00:50:16   It's really great and the fact there's a lot of people,

00:50:20   it's hard if you don't know a lot of people out there,

00:50:23   if you don't have friends, it's hard to find some

00:50:25   of this private stuff, but now there's things like

00:50:28   AltConf and Layers, these are public events

00:50:31   that anybody can go to.

00:50:32   AltConf is even free.

00:50:34   I mean, anybody can go to these things,

00:50:36   so even if you don't have friends out there already

00:50:39   you don't know a lot of people out there,

00:50:41   there's now still options even for that.

00:50:43   And that's fantastic, 'cause that really,

00:50:45   it's hard to break into the social crowd

00:50:49   of certain app developers, if you don't know anybody.

00:50:52   This provides ways to do that, and that's really great.

00:50:55   - All this is doing is making hotel prices even higher.

00:50:58   - Yeah, that's true. (laughing)

00:51:00   - Yeah, they were terrible this year.

00:51:02   I mean, they've been getting progressively worse,

00:51:04   but I feel like, maybe it's all in my head,

00:51:05   but I feel like there was a big jump this year.

00:51:07   - Yeah, you know, maybe the hotels have finally figured out

00:51:11   what happens this week.

00:51:12   - Well, what happened is the Park 55,

00:51:14   the Park 55 was our cheap go-to the last few years,

00:51:17   and it got bought by Hilton.

00:51:18   - I think the Pickwick was expensive this year, though,

00:51:21   wasn't it?

00:51:22   Like, everything was expensive.

00:51:22   - That's insane.

00:51:23   I've stayed at the Pickwick one year,

00:51:25   and I think it has since been refurbished,

00:51:27   but the time I was there,

00:51:28   let's just say you get what you pay for.

00:51:30   (laughing)

00:51:31   - No, but the problem is in San Francisco,

00:51:33   you don't get what you pay for.

00:51:34   'Cause you can pay like 300 bucks a night

00:51:36   for a hotel room,

00:51:37   But in San Francisco during WWDC week, $300 a night is on the cheap end, and so you can

00:51:41   have a cheap, crappy hotel and have paid $300 a night for it.

00:51:45   Yeah, the room rates this year are like, every night that you're staying in San Francisco,

00:51:51   you could buy yourself a new Apple Watch.

00:51:52   Well, so you then said that to me originally.

00:51:55   I don't remember who it was, but...

00:51:56   Well, you know, it's when, you know, when I was shopping for hotel prices way before

00:52:01   the lottery, which by the way, this is another, we're not doing WWDC tips this time, but this

00:52:04   This is another thing that people who go to WDC frequently do is book your hotel

00:52:08   Reservations before you even know when WDC is going to be because hotel reservations are really easy to cancel

00:52:13   All you need is like 24 hours notice usually right so book your hotel reservations and when I was doing that

00:52:18   If you're not gonna go pickwick like everything was

00:52:22   $350 or more and so yeah, it's just like just just consider one more day one more Apple watch

00:52:29   I'm not getting open other Apple watch going out the window. Let me chuck this Apple watch sport out the window

00:52:33   Just every day you're there. You're just burning Apple watches. It's the unit of currency instead of paying for rooms

00:52:38   You'll just trade in a fistful of Apple watches with their little green bands

00:52:42   That's like a gasoline is the currency in Mad Max, right so well in San Francisco

00:52:54   Just the wads of Apple watches colorful sport bands. Yeah

00:52:59   Yeah, well it the pickwick is at least better than what is it the Mosser who David Sparks was saying?

00:53:03   on the talk show.

00:53:05   - Yeah, this is the one with shared bathrooms.

00:53:06   You get progressively,

00:53:07   and that probably is still $200 a night, so.

00:53:10   - Our second sponsor this week is Harvest.

00:53:13   Harvest is a beautiful business tool

00:53:15   for tracking time spent on client projects.

00:53:18   If you do client work,

00:53:19   time tracking is such a major part of it,

00:53:21   as Casey, you know this, right?

00:53:23   With Harvest, no matter where you find yourself working,

00:53:26   the focus stays on the task at hand.

00:53:28   So it's very simple.

00:53:29   You're working on something, you start a timer for it.

00:53:31   You can start these timers from anywhere.

00:53:33   your web browser, your desktop, your mobile device.

00:53:36   Tracked hours appear in beautiful visual time reports.

00:53:39   And then when all is said and done,

00:53:40   and all the work is done, you can create an invoice.

00:53:43   Well, the work is really never done,

00:53:44   but you know, when you need to get paid,

00:53:47   you can create an invoice with billable hours

00:53:49   right in Harvest, everything's all integrated.

00:53:51   Harvest gives you the tools, data, and visualizations

00:53:54   designed to keep projects on time and within budget.

00:53:57   And you can use these tools, you can see for yourself.

00:53:59   You can see data like which clients and projects

00:54:02   are actually making you money,

00:54:03   and which ones are really just costing you

00:54:04   because you're putting so much time into them

00:54:06   that you can't make that much money back.

00:54:08   So Casey, I'm curious, you work in the consulting business.

00:54:12   How useful is a tool like Harvest

00:54:14   to really boost your time tracking skills?

00:54:17   - Oh, it's hugely useful because I am an erosion

00:54:19   on the bottom line of the company

00:54:21   if I am not billing a client.

00:54:22   And so you bet your butt that I need to make sure

00:54:26   I'm billing every second I'm working for a client.

00:54:29   And something like Harvest does a really good job

00:54:31   of making sure that I do exactly that.

00:54:33   And the key to this is it being extremely low friction,

00:54:37   and that's exactly what this is.

00:54:39   So I definitely recommend having Harvest

00:54:43   or something along those lines, preferably Harvest,

00:54:45   to do this because if you're anything like me,

00:54:48   doing it in your head is just a recipe for disaster.

00:54:50   - Exactly.

00:54:51   So Harvest gives you all the tools to make this painless.

00:54:55   It's beautiful, it's accurate,

00:54:56   and it gives you all the reports

00:54:58   so you can see how things are working.

00:55:00   You can make sure you're getting paid.

00:55:01   you can make sure you're making money,

00:55:03   it's all integrated.

00:55:04   Check out Harvest, getharvest.com,

00:55:07   and start tracking time painlessly.

00:55:09   Now there's a 30 day free trial.

00:55:11   This is fantastic, just try it out.

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00:55:27   Don't forget to use coupon code ATP at checkout

00:55:30   for 50% off your first month.

00:55:31   Go right now, start a free trial.

00:55:33   Thanks a lot to Harvest, getharvest.com

00:55:35   for sponsoring our show once again.

00:55:37   - You know, it occurred to me just a moment ago

00:55:40   that the new MacBook Pro is the same style

00:55:44   as the new Mac Pro was prior to the trash can,

00:55:48   where they just kinda slapped a new sticker

00:55:50   on what was already there and said,

00:55:51   "Yay, yeah, this is totally new, you guys.

00:55:53   "You should buy one."

00:55:54   - It's a little bit better than that.

00:55:55   They changed the track pad.

00:55:57   (laughing)

00:55:58   - It has a new SSD.

00:55:59   - The new Mac Pro is like where there was,

00:56:03   yeah, there was no new features.

00:56:05   It was literally just an internal upgrade

00:56:07   that was not a significant one.

00:56:09   - It was like two different processor options

00:56:11   and price drop on one of them.

00:56:13   Yeah, this is a real update.

00:56:16   It's just a really small one.

00:56:18   You know, they did upgrade the SSD

00:56:20   to be the new PCI X4, I believe.

00:56:23   - And that's significant if you're doing anything

00:56:25   that was IO bound because it's not like the SSDs

00:56:26   are like 10% faster.

00:56:28   they're like 2X, which is, that's good.

00:56:30   - Yeah, there was a great benchmark on BareFeets

00:56:32   that showed 'em all, and it's, it really,

00:56:33   like, the SSD in the newest, I believe it's the 13 and 15

00:56:38   Retina MacBook Pro and the new MacBook,

00:56:39   the 12 inch MacBook One, I believe those are all now

00:56:44   faster than the SSDs that are in the Mac Pro.

00:56:47   - Yeah.

00:56:47   - Because the Mac Pro just hasn't gotten this update yet.

00:56:49   - That's, the Mac Pro is comfortable in that position

00:56:51   of being the machine that has just never updated

00:56:53   while the lesser machines slowly pass it by.

00:56:56   - Exactly, so yeah, it was an update.

00:56:59   The issue, as with almost everything in the last year,

00:57:05   is that Broadwell chips have not shipped yet

00:57:08   for the Quad Core, so Intel has had such major delays

00:57:11   with Broadwell, I think it's almost a year later

00:57:13   than it was supposed to be.

00:57:14   They just barely got the Broadwell chips out

00:57:16   for the low power model, so the ones that are used

00:57:19   in the MacBook One, and the ones that are used

00:57:21   in the MacBook Air, and I think,

00:57:22   did the Thursday News get Broadwell?

00:57:24   I think it did too.

00:57:25   but the quad core Broadwell chips are still not out.

00:57:29   We're getting close to Skylakes

00:57:30   as intended to release date.

00:57:31   Like Skylake's supposed to come out

00:57:32   like this fall or next spring.

00:57:34   At this point, it's pretty clear what's happening here

00:57:37   is that Intel, all their production delays on Broadwell,

00:57:41   they just can't get the quad cores out in time

00:57:44   that Apple wants, then Apple needed to do an update.

00:57:45   Oh, they also updated the GPU, that's a big thing.

00:57:48   I don't know anything about these GPUs,

00:57:50   but the old GPU, everyone said was really getting ancient,

00:57:54   and GPUs move so quickly that's plausible.

00:57:56   The new one is probably not gonna satisfy people

00:57:58   'cause people are never satisfied

00:57:59   with the GPUs Apple picks,

00:58:00   but it will at least be newer and probably faster.

00:58:03   So that's important for a lot of people.

00:58:04   It doesn't matter to me,

00:58:05   but it's important for a lot of people, so I get that.

00:58:09   But for the most part, the problem is

00:58:11   there's no new CPUs to use.

00:58:12   So the CPU options,

00:58:14   and I believe even the motherboard chipset, the RAM,

00:58:17   everything is the exact same as last year

00:58:19   in those departments.

00:58:20   So it is really kind of a half update.

00:58:23   - No USB-C either, right?

00:58:25   - Correct, yeah, no USB-C, no external case changes.

00:58:28   They did, because they did the Force Touch track pad,

00:58:32   they did add 4% more battery wattage to it.

00:58:37   I'm assuming, they didn't say this,

00:58:39   I'm assuming it's because the Force Touch track pad

00:58:42   is thinner and so they gained a little bit more space

00:58:45   under it, so they probably could fill that with battery

00:58:48   'cause the battery in this--

00:58:49   - They could've done their scalloped or terraced batteries

00:58:51   like they could have just, you know, wedge more stuff in it.

00:58:53   - Well, I think they would have said so if they did though.

00:58:55   I'm guessing that's not here yet,

00:58:57   because that would have probably involved a redesign

00:58:59   of the whole top case, which is where the batteries

00:59:01   are bonded, and they didn't do that.

00:59:03   So I'm guessing it's literally just like the battery

00:59:06   was able to get 4% bigger because of the space gain

00:59:09   with the force to extract that, and that's it.

00:59:10   - So this is a relatively unimpressive upgrade,

00:59:13   is what I'm hearing.

00:59:13   - Well, like, in this case, we get frustrated,

00:59:18   but it's like, oh, this is a bad update,

00:59:19   but it's so clear that this is not Apple dragging its feet.

00:59:23   It's Apple going like, well, should we just,

00:59:27   are they gonna be out or should we wait or no,

00:59:29   and now we can't wait.

00:59:30   I wonder when they made the decision to say,

00:59:32   we have to go with this sort of half update.

00:59:34   They can't ship machines with chips

00:59:36   that aren't available to purchase from Intel.

00:59:39   And it's a shame, but that's the position they're in.

00:59:42   So this is a half update, but it's the best they could do.

00:59:47   And timing-wise,

00:59:48   could they have done the half update earlier?

00:59:50   Some people were complaining like,

00:59:51   look, if you weren't gonna have Broadwell chips,

00:59:54   why the delay in releasing even these?

00:59:59   And we don't know, like maybe it took this long

01:00:01   to just get this design together,

01:00:03   because they made this decision several months ago

01:00:04   that they weren't, you know,

01:00:06   it's a shame, but it is what it is.

01:00:08   And I think with these machines,

01:00:10   most of the things I've seen from discussions

01:00:13   from Marco and other people is like,

01:00:15   if you have a recent Retina MacBook Pro,

01:00:17   should you buy one of these machines?

01:00:19   And it's like, well, you really have to look at

01:00:20   the few things that got better in them.

01:00:22   Are you doing stuff that's IO bound?

01:00:24   In which case the SSD is a big deal.

01:00:25   Yeah, are you doing something with GPU ground?

01:00:27   In which case the GPU is better,

01:00:28   but otherwise CPU is a small bump, blah, blah, blah.

01:00:31   But ignoring that, saying you don't have,

01:00:33   either you don't have a Mac laptop

01:00:35   or you don't have a MacBook Pro,

01:00:36   or you don't have a retina MacBook Pro,

01:00:38   these are still pretty good machines.

01:00:40   Like, it's not like this is a dog.

01:00:42   Like you buy this,

01:00:43   oh, you bought one of those crappy ones.

01:00:44   We're just, we're kind of like purely judging it

01:00:47   as how big a leap over the previous one it is, is it?

01:00:50   Whereas if you're using a non-retina MacBook

01:00:53   from a long time ago, or you've never purchased a Mac,

01:00:55   this seems like a perfectly fine machine, right?

01:00:58   - Yeah, I mean, I said in my post,

01:01:01   so I've been using a 2012 15-inch Retina MacBook,

01:01:04   the very first Retina MacBook Pro.

01:01:05   It's been great, I love it, it's been awesome.

01:01:09   The only downside to it is that

01:01:12   usually when I'm on a cross-country flight

01:01:14   using Xcode and serious computing stuff the whole time,

01:01:18   usually I need about an hour more battery life

01:01:21   or maybe occasionally two hours more battery life

01:01:24   to really be happy with it.

01:01:26   That is the only time that I'm not 100% satisfied

01:01:28   with this machine, it is so good.

01:01:30   And since then, since 2012, they actually have gotten,

01:01:34   I think they've gotten that extra hour or hour and a half

01:01:37   just by improvements going from Ivy Bridge to Haswell

01:01:42   and a couple other minor improvements.

01:01:44   but I really don't, it turns out I don't like Force Touch.

01:01:48   I like it on the watch, it's fine.

01:01:50   I really don't care for the Force Touch track pads

01:01:53   that are in the laptops right now.

01:01:55   I tried them in the store and then I'll get to,

01:01:59   I guess we'll get to my mistake one in a minute,

01:02:01   but I just don't like them.

01:02:04   I don't like the way they feel.

01:02:05   They don't, they do feel like you're clicking a button

01:02:09   and it is a really cool thing.

01:02:11   It's a really cool technical achievement.

01:02:13   it's very impressive, it does feel like you're clicking

01:02:15   a physical button for the most part.

01:02:18   I would say it feels like 80% right,

01:02:22   but it's kinda like an uncanny valley situation,

01:02:25   like it almost feels like you're pushing a good button,

01:02:28   but not quite, and that not quite really irritates me,

01:02:31   and it doesn't feel like a good button press.

01:02:35   It is really impressive that it works as well as it does

01:02:37   considering that there's no moving parts,

01:02:40   But I just, I really don't like it.

01:02:42   So I like the previous generation 15 inch so much

01:02:48   that I actually ordered yesterday's,

01:02:50   or you know, last week's model,

01:02:52   which is the 2014 model, I actually ordered one of those

01:02:56   on clearance from Amazon for 1850 to replace,

01:03:00   'cause I mentioned earlier, I really need to

01:03:04   hand this computer down to a family member

01:03:06   and I kinda wanted to,

01:03:09   I kind of wanted a new one just to get a new battery

01:03:11   and to get that extra hour,

01:03:13   'cause even though this is great,

01:03:15   it also has a three year old battery in it

01:03:16   'cause it's three years old.

01:03:17   So this one still works so well

01:03:20   that I can still hand it down to a family member

01:03:22   or I could sell it for a good price

01:03:24   if I don't need to hand it down anymore.

01:03:26   So we'll see.

01:03:27   I really do think that the base model 15 inch

01:03:32   is an incredibly good value.

01:03:36   It is the most machine that most people need.

01:03:39   It is not that much, so the base model

01:03:42   15 inch is usually $2,000.

01:03:44   You can usually get a refurb or a clearance,

01:03:47   or you can get it from a reseller like Amazon

01:03:49   for $16 to $1,800.

01:03:51   That's a really good buy compared to getting like a 13 inch

01:03:57   and specing it up to be similar,

01:03:59   and that's only a few hundred dollars less usually.

01:04:02   The 15 inch is so good, so powerful, so fast,

01:04:05   screen is huge you can do so much with it it has all the ports that that John

01:04:10   needs it's it's great so I that's why I like it so much I I compared it John

01:04:16   will appreciate this I compare it to the Honda Accord I saw the comparison and

01:04:22   don't think it quite made sense what you're trying to say is that you can get

01:04:24   a surprising amount for your money but like maybe if you can find your context

01:04:29   who just retin-up MacBooks or just Apple laptops, then it fits that. But still, at like $1600

01:04:38   to $2000, this is a fairly expensive laptop in the grand scheme of things.

01:04:42   Well, it isn't a fairly expensive Mac laptop. It's a mid-priced Mac laptop.

01:04:47   That's what I'm saying. So once you can find it to Macs, I would think that the Honda Accord

01:04:52   is probably more like the 13-inch Air, because it's got the non-retina screen, and it's not

01:04:58   even an IPS screen or whatever but that thing does all the things a laptop is

01:05:03   supposed to do. Is it easy to carry? It does all the stuff. It has the ports. It's

01:05:06   like it is a complete thing whereas you demand as we know from both your cars

01:05:11   and your computers a little bit more perhaps than the Honda Accord and its

01:05:14   four-cylinder engine has to offer VTech notwithstanding. So you are you are

01:05:21   shopping in a different class of things so I think it is more apt to call that

01:05:25   that thing, the 535i.

01:05:27   (laughing)

01:05:29   Like it's not the M5, right?

01:05:31   But it's still a premium product, it's large,

01:05:34   it's got a big engine, and the 13 inch air

01:05:36   is the Honda Accord.

01:05:37   Anyway, I don't think it matters which car

01:05:39   these things correspond to.

01:05:39   Bottom line, it's a very nice machine.

01:05:43   - Yeah, and what I discovered is that it is by far

01:05:47   the machine I'm happiest with.

01:05:49   If I get anything smaller than a 15,

01:05:50   there are trips that I take that I really regret it.

01:05:53   Not all trips, a lot of trips I can take

01:05:55   and I wish I had the smallest laptop possible.

01:05:58   You know, trips where I'm not really coding,

01:05:59   I'm not really working, I just need to, you know,

01:06:01   keep up on email and stuff and browse the web sometimes.

01:06:04   Like that's, and I don't like using iPads for that,

01:06:06   sorry everybody.

01:06:07   (laughs)

01:06:07   You know, that's fine.

01:06:08   - Well, so this is exactly why you felt the urge

01:06:11   to go out and buy a brand new laptop

01:06:13   that is not the 15 inch.

01:06:14   Because you like new things.

01:06:17   - That's, well--

01:06:18   - Briefly.

01:06:19   - Yes, so--

01:06:20   (laughs)

01:06:22   I've had mixed experience with new things.

01:06:26   The 5K iMac is the best computer I've ever owned.

01:06:29   It's amazing.

01:06:30   I'm so ridiculously happy with it.

01:06:33   The Apple Watch I've had since day one,

01:06:35   so what is that, about three weeks now.

01:06:38   Love it.

01:06:38   I so love the Apple Watch.

01:06:42   It is, for a 1.0 especially, it's an amazing product.

01:06:45   It is not perfect, but it is really, really good.

01:06:50   I'm enjoying it more than I expected to.

01:06:53   I like it, I use it a lot, it has made me

01:06:57   actually increase my physical activity level

01:06:59   on a regular basis so far.

01:07:01   It is so good.

01:07:02   I am so happy with the Apple Watch.

01:07:04   And again, so happy with the 5K iMac.

01:07:06   I'm so happy with the 15-inch laptop line.

01:07:08   I like a lot of things.

01:07:11   I thought I would like to have the MacBook One.

01:07:16   - Can you explain to people what the MacBook One is?

01:07:18   the new MacBook with one port.

01:07:20   - Yes, we always just talk about it as that.

01:07:22   I think who coined that term, is that Marco?

01:07:24   - I did, yeah.

01:07:25   - Anyway, yes, that's what we're talking about,

01:07:26   the really skinny MacBook with one port

01:07:28   that we talked about for like seven episodes,

01:07:31   complaining about the fact that it has one port.

01:07:32   - Exactly, and we're gonna talk about it

01:07:33   a little more now, but it's all right.

01:07:35   So for years, I've been thinking, you know what,

01:07:38   I would love to have like a bedside tiny computer

01:07:42   that I could occasionally write blog posts on,

01:07:44   answer email, like if I go up to bed early

01:07:47   and I wanna like--

01:07:48   - Whoa, stop.

01:07:49   When do you ever answer email?

01:07:51   - I don't have a computer to answer it on.

01:07:53   - Yeah, that's the problem.

01:07:54   - We were made in front of everyone

01:07:55   for the day phone and night phone,

01:07:56   but now Marco is buying laptops specifically for use,

01:08:01   but then in certain rooms of his house.

01:08:03   - Yes, my upstairs laptop, my downstairs laptop, no.

01:08:05   - Oh my God.

01:08:06   - So, you know, I was waffling for years over the idea

01:08:09   of maybe I'd go pick up a used 11-inch Air from somewhere,

01:08:13   because for my purposes of blogging and emailing and stuff,

01:08:17   it wouldn't need to be high spec at all.

01:08:19   It could be very slow, it doesn't need to be new,

01:08:23   it could be fine.

01:08:24   And I would use that and then occasionally

01:08:27   when I do take these trips where I don't need

01:08:29   to get any work done, when I just wanna keep up

01:08:31   on email and stuff, I can bring that as the laptop

01:08:33   instead of bringing my big 15 inch.

01:08:36   So this was my thought.

01:08:37   And for years I've been thinking about this

01:08:39   and not doing it.

01:08:40   And when I saw the MacBook One in person in the store,

01:08:43   I was really tempted by it.

01:08:45   from the very first time I saw it.

01:08:47   And I've, through various watch trips and repairs,

01:08:49   I've actually been to Apple stores a number of times

01:08:52   since it's come out.

01:08:52   And every time I go, I always go over to MacBook One

01:08:56   and I look at it and I type on it,

01:08:57   I'm like, can I live with this?

01:08:58   Can I live with this keyboard?

01:08:59   I know it's a weird keyboard, but can I live with it?

01:09:02   And it is just so small and so light

01:09:05   and the screen looks pretty good

01:09:07   and it isn't as good as other Retinas.

01:09:09   I was wrong about that, but it is close.

01:09:13   And it is better than the 11 inch Air screen.

01:09:15   that's for sure, the non-retina.

01:09:18   So it looks great.

01:09:19   This machine, you see it and you're drawn to it.

01:09:22   It's like a lust.

01:09:24   You see this, you're like,

01:09:24   "Oh my God, this is such a nice machine."

01:09:27   The business rep in my store,

01:09:29   I mentioned at one point that I was possibly interested

01:09:32   in one at some point,

01:09:34   and they emailed me saying they had one in.

01:09:36   And I thought, you know what,

01:09:37   I'm about to go on a trip this weekend

01:09:38   where it would be the perfect trip to test it out on.

01:09:41   Let me try, let me get it.

01:09:43   I think I'm ready.

01:09:44   I think this is a good idea for me.

01:09:46   Let's see, how do I put this?

01:09:49   Our third sponsor this week is Fracture.

01:09:51   (laughing)

01:09:52   Fracture prints your photos in vivid color directly on glass.

01:09:55   Go to fractureme.com.

01:09:58   Fracture photos are awesome.

01:09:59   I have a bunch of them around my office.

01:10:01   I got, let's see, five, six now?

01:10:03   So, oh wait, no, more over there.

01:10:05   I think I have eight in my office right now.

01:10:08   So many of these things, they are fantastic.

01:10:10   So really, it is a photo printed on glass.

01:10:13   You go there, you upload your photo.

01:10:15   And by the way, it doesn't have to be a photo.

01:10:16   So three of mine in my office are icons

01:10:19   for the apps that I've made.

01:10:20   As kind of like these little trophies

01:10:21   or these little show pieces of like,

01:10:23   here's the row of apps I've made.

01:10:25   And these are these little glass prints

01:10:27   that hang on the wall.

01:10:28   They look fantastic, right?

01:10:29   And then I have photos.

01:10:30   Family photos, fun photos, illustrations.

01:10:33   I got a couple of those up here and there.

01:10:35   They are fantastic.

01:10:36   It is such good quality on these Fracture prints.

01:10:38   I always get compliments on them.

01:10:39   People always ask about them.

01:10:40   They ask where they can get them.

01:10:42   People who know fracture, who know of them

01:10:44   through the podcast, if they're here,

01:10:45   they'll be like, oh, are those the fractures?

01:10:47   They always ask about them.

01:10:48   So many compliments, they're so good.

01:10:50   So really, it is a piece of glass,

01:10:53   it's a thin piece of glass adhered to this foam board thing

01:10:56   so that you can put a nail in it,

01:10:57   and the photo was printed on the back surface

01:11:01   of this thin piece of glass,

01:11:02   and so it shows through the front.

01:11:04   And so it's protected, it doesn't scratch off or anything,

01:11:07   it doesn't look weird.

01:11:08   It also doesn't need a frame, which is really cool,

01:11:11   because then, normally you get a nice photo printed,

01:11:15   then you gotta get a frame for it,

01:11:16   or get a custom frame, which is really expensive,

01:11:19   and it doesn't kinda look right,

01:11:21   just having photos hanging on your wall by themselves.

01:11:23   With Fracture, it is its own complete product.

01:11:25   It looks great, you don't need a frame.

01:11:27   It is fantastic, it is clean, it's modern,

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01:11:31   And they put everything you need

01:11:34   to get your photo on the wall or desk right in the box.

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01:11:38   for a five by five inch square.

01:11:40   they also have rectangles.

01:11:41   This is a, 5x5 is a great size for like Instagram photos,

01:11:45   'cause it's small enough, it's big enough

01:11:46   that you can see it, in fact, most of mine

01:11:48   are that small size, but it's small enough

01:11:50   that if you only have like a low-res iPhone shot,

01:11:53   the photo still looks great, even at that size.

01:11:56   Every fracture is handmade and checked for quality

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01:12:05   I really do very highly recommend Fracture.

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01:12:10   If you wanna give them as gifts for holidays

01:12:12   or birthdays or whatever,

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01:12:18   If you have a photo of you and your friend

01:12:20   looking funny or whatever, you can send them.

01:12:21   It is so good.

01:12:23   I really, I can't recommend Fracture enough,

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01:12:54   Thank you very much to Fracture.

01:12:55   Photos printed directly on Glass.

01:12:57   It is so good, highly recommended.

01:12:59   - So tell us about your big mistake.

01:13:01   - So I really, I talked myself into the MacBook One.

01:13:06   I said, you know, for this purpose that I've wanted

01:13:08   for a while, it would be amazing.

01:13:10   'Cause the one thing with the 11 inch Air

01:13:12   is the non-retina screen.

01:13:13   And that's a pretty big thing for me.

01:13:15   I really care a lot about retina

01:13:17   and I really don't like using non-retina screens.

01:13:20   And MacBook One, I thought, you know what,

01:13:24   let me give this a try.

01:13:25   I think I might love this actually.

01:13:27   And so I bought it and I brought it home

01:13:31   and I used it for about 36 hours, pretty heavily.

01:13:35   A lot of people were criticizing me for reviewing it

01:13:38   after only having it for a day and a half.

01:13:42   And that's somewhat fair, but I just really hated it.

01:13:46   - So what did you hate?

01:13:49   - I knew the keyboard was gonna be weird.

01:13:52   That being said, so every time I was in the Apple store,

01:13:54   I think I saw it in person maybe three times

01:13:56   before buying it, so every time that I saw it,

01:13:58   I would go to it, I'd open up the Notes app,

01:14:00   and I'd just start typing something long,

01:14:02   just to kind of see, like, can I get used to this keyboard?

01:14:04   Every time I was getting better at it,

01:14:06   and I started realizing, you know, I actually,

01:14:09   this is fine, I can type on this.

01:14:11   I don't like typing on it that much, but I can do it.

01:14:14   So I can probably get used to it,

01:14:15   and it's probably gonna be fine.

01:14:17   And I got it, and I got it home,

01:14:18   and I started typing a lot on it as I was setting it up,

01:14:20   and then I installed all my chat apps on it,

01:14:22   so I'd be typing more, I installed Slack,

01:14:24   and I installed Twitter, and then I installed email,

01:14:27   and I started responding to a bunch of my email.

01:14:30   And so I did a lot of typing on it.

01:14:33   and I got really fast with it.

01:14:36   Speed was not an issue at all.

01:14:38   And accuracy wasn't that bad either.

01:14:41   My big problem with the keyboard is just that it doesn't

01:14:43   feel good, and to me it actually feels bad.

01:14:46   And I guess I wanna be careful here to not say that

01:14:52   people who think differently are just wrong and stupid.

01:14:55   This is my opinion, of course, but I really don't like

01:14:58   the key switch feel.

01:15:00   Part of it is the short travel of the keys,

01:15:02   which everyone's side says, yes, they're very shallow,

01:15:04   they don't push down very far.

01:15:06   But also, for me, part of it was the way they click down.

01:15:10   It is like, a key switch is kind of a soft actuation

01:15:13   on a regular keyboard.

01:15:15   These are, they're like tiny little hard dimple buttons.

01:15:20   It clicks like bubble wrap.

01:15:21   It's like there's a snap when you push it in.

01:15:24   And it doesn't, it feels like buttons.

01:15:27   It doesn't feel like keys, if that makes sense.

01:15:30   - Is it also noisier?

01:15:31   you say that in your review or somebody else?

01:15:33   - It, I think it is, it sounds different.

01:15:36   I would say it's noisier.

01:15:37   The trackpad is a little bit quieter,

01:15:39   keyboard's a little bit louder.

01:15:40   I think it depends on what you're doing.

01:15:43   But it had a weird sound, and I could definitely see

01:15:48   other people in the room being annoyed by it

01:15:50   if I were to use it in a workplace

01:15:52   that was not full of the same computer.

01:15:54   Yeah, it is weird, it's clicky,

01:15:56   but not in a good clicky keyboard way.

01:15:58   It's just a very strange keyboard.

01:16:01   I also did not, as I mentioned earlier,

01:16:02   I didn't care for the trackpad, the ForceTux trackpad.

01:16:05   - Wait, hold on, before you get to the trackpad,

01:16:07   can you just remind everyone,

01:16:08   what is the keyboard you're used to using,

01:16:10   say, with your 5K iMac?

01:16:12   - The keyboard I use is, on a regular basis,

01:16:15   is the Microsoft Sculpt Ergo economic, or Ergonomic.

01:16:20   So the Sculpt Ergonomic desktop keyboard,

01:16:22   I don't know, it has like four words.

01:16:23   One of them is Sculpt, one of them is Ergonomic.

01:16:25   (laughing)

01:16:26   - But this is not a traditional, like,

01:16:28   clicky-clackity keyboard like a lot of popular Apple people use.

01:16:33   No, I've tried those in the past. I have not found an ergonomic one of those that fit me

01:16:40   very well. There are very few ergonomic mechanical keyboards. The one that was my favorite was

01:16:45   the Mattias or Mattias Ergopro. I did a review on my site a couple months ago when that came

01:16:51   out. That was my favorite one of the mechanical ones, but the Sculpt Ergo from Microsoft just

01:16:57   fits me a little, like the curvature of it

01:16:58   just is more comfortable for me, so I stick with it.

01:17:00   It has scissor keys, like laptop keyboards,

01:17:02   like other laptop keyboards. (laughs)

01:17:04   It has, you know, like they're shallow,

01:17:07   but not that shallow, then they have

01:17:08   like the scissor mechanism under them,

01:17:09   so they kind of squish down.

01:17:11   It's not a clicky keyboard, but it's fine.

01:17:14   I like it a lot.

01:17:16   - But more importantly, you like the keyboard

01:17:17   on your 15-inch.

01:17:18   - Yeah, and you know, like the keyboard

01:17:20   that Apple's been using on laptops forever,

01:17:22   I mean, even before this, the G4 keyboard,

01:17:25   That's where I started my Mac life.

01:17:28   And I loved that keyboard too, it was fine.

01:17:32   And the current keyboards that are on every Mac laptop,

01:17:35   except for the MacBook One, I think they're great.

01:17:38   I've never had any problem with them.

01:17:39   They're, you know, they're not like,

01:17:42   I don't type on this and say this is the best keyboard

01:17:43   I've ever used, but I also don't think about it

01:17:45   'cause it's just good.

01:17:46   Like, it is completely forgettable in all the best ways.

01:17:49   They're just good keyboards.

01:17:51   And until you use a bad keyboard,

01:17:52   you don't really appreciate quite how good they are.

01:17:55   - I think that if you use this keyboard

01:17:57   for a longer period of time,

01:17:58   you just would have accepted this

01:18:00   in the same way that you accept the inferior

01:18:02   to your Microsoft Sculpt keyboard,

01:18:03   but otherwise, like, you just get used to it.

01:18:05   Like, if all the laptop keyboards were like this,

01:18:07   and you had no choice and you used it for like a year,

01:18:09   would you eventually settle into the same compromise

01:18:11   where it's like, well, I prefer my desktop keyboard,

01:18:14   obviously it's better, but these are fine.

01:18:16   - I'm sure I could.

01:18:17   A bunch of my friends have these computers and love them.

01:18:20   And I was asking some questions here and there on Twitter

01:18:22   and privately and everything.

01:18:23   And somebody said, I think it was Paul Haddad from Tweetbot,

01:18:28   "It's a perfectly fine keyboard once you get used to it

01:18:32   "if you never use any other keyboards."

01:18:35   'Cause it is such a different feel from other keyboards

01:18:39   that it is very strange to transition between it.

01:18:42   Even though I have no trouble transitioning between

01:18:44   my split ergonomic Kirby keyboard on my desktop

01:18:47   and the straight keyboard on my laptop.

01:18:49   I have no trouble, like I've never had an issue

01:18:51   getting used to one or the other or transitioning

01:18:53   even though they're physically very differently spaced apart, very different keys, etc. With

01:18:58   the MacBook One, it is such a different feel, and you have to press down with so little

01:19:03   depth, but still a similar amount of force. Like, this is part of my problem with it.

01:19:09   Ergonomic keyboards are designed, like, they're really good ergonomic keyboards, like from

01:19:13   Kinesis, they're designed very carefully to modulate the amount of force that you need

01:19:18   to push a key down so that you're not pushing too hard. If you have to push too hard, or

01:19:23   Or if you have to push hard enough that after it has actuated you're still like kind of

01:19:28   bottoming out, like you're still slamming the key into like the floor of the keyboard

01:19:32   further than you have to to actuate the key press, those are all bad for RSI and ergonomics.

01:19:38   Those all really exacerbate things like carpal tunnel syndrome and various other RSI things.

01:19:43   They really are not good.

01:19:44   And so these keyboards are designed very carefully such that they match the level of pressure

01:19:50   required to depress a key and how far it needs to be depressed with the way people's fingers

01:19:55   work and the way people type and how like your fingers are all different strengths.

01:19:59   Your outer fingers like your pinky ring finger, those are weaker than your index finger or

01:20:04   your thumb and so like the really fancy ergonomic keyboards like the Kinesis will actually have

01:20:10   different key presses, different key press forces rather on different keys depending

01:20:14   on which of your fingers are intended to hit them. So the keys in the middle will be harder

01:20:18   to press than the ones towards the edges, because then your weaker fingers press the

01:20:21   ones towards the edges. So all this care is put into keyboard design for very good reasons,

01:20:27   because it really does matter, it really does make things feel better or be more or less

01:20:32   problematic for RSI sufferers, and I do have mild RSI problems and I manage them by doing

01:20:37   things like using a split keyboard. Not as bad as John, but I do need to avoid RSI problems.

01:20:45   The MacBook keyboard, the MacBook One keyboard,

01:20:48   it really, I have concerns for ergonomics,

01:20:51   for long-term use of it,

01:20:53   more so than the regular laptop keyboards.

01:20:55   - You're saying you think it takes more pressure,

01:20:57   more force than the other,

01:20:59   than the non MacBook One MacBook keyboards?

01:21:02   - I think it does.

01:21:03   I don't have it anymore to do a side-by-side test,

01:21:06   but I did some while I had it, and it's different,

01:21:10   because as Andrew mentioned,

01:21:11   the way the keys click down is a different type

01:21:13   of click force and a different type of response,

01:21:16   not just being more shallow,

01:21:18   it is really a very different feel to the click,

01:21:20   but I had some concerns using it about RSI,

01:21:24   and I was a little sore after my day and a half using it.

01:21:28   Now, that's too early to say

01:21:29   whether it's the keyboard's fault

01:21:31   or whether it's just 'cause it was different.

01:21:32   That could go either way, so I'm not claiming

01:21:34   that I had a problem from that keyboard necessarily,

01:21:37   but I do have concerns because it seems like

01:21:41   The ergonomics of it are substantially worse

01:21:44   in this one key way, no pun intended,

01:21:47   of the pressure required to depress the keys

01:21:50   and then trying to avoid the slamming against the bottom

01:21:54   and the bottoming out of pushing it too far.

01:21:57   The way these keys are designed,

01:21:58   the shallow travel makes it very hard

01:22:01   not to bottom out like that.

01:22:03   But the key switch type,

01:22:06   where you have to kind of press hard to get it to actuate,

01:22:09   makes it even harder to avoid bottoming out like that,

01:22:12   and especially on your less precise fingers.

01:22:16   One of the problems I had getting accurate with it

01:22:19   was the key I most frequently mis-hit was delete,

01:22:24   because my pinky has to hit delete,

01:22:26   one of my weakest fingers.

01:22:28   And so I would frequently go to hit delete

01:22:31   and not push hard enough,

01:22:32   and have to then go like redo it again,

01:22:34   'cause I would typo there,

01:22:36   'cause I wasn't pushing hard enough

01:22:38   to actuate the faraway keys.

01:22:42   And eventually, I got used to it enough

01:22:44   that I was able to do that,

01:22:45   but it was never anywhere near as comfortable to use,

01:22:50   and it was always very frustrating to use

01:22:54   as a result of that.

01:22:55   Does that make sense?

01:22:56   - Yeah, I think so.

01:22:58   Now, you were starting to talk about the Force Touch Trackpad.

01:23:02   - The Force Touch Trackpad is not as bad as the keyboard.

01:23:06   I really would prefer never to own a laptop

01:23:09   with that keyboard.

01:23:10   If I had to own a laptop with the ForceTox trackpad,

01:23:13   I would deal with it.

01:23:14   It wouldn't be a massive problem for using the laptop.

01:23:17   I would deal with it.

01:23:19   But I don't like it.

01:23:21   And I would prefer not to have to deal with it if possible.

01:23:25   The ForceTox trackpad, as I mentioned earlier,

01:23:28   it is a very good technical achievement,

01:23:30   but it doesn't feel like a good button press.

01:23:32   it feels like a worse trackpad in use than the old one did.

01:23:37   It is a softer, quieter click,

01:23:39   which is nice for noise reasons.

01:23:43   It is uniform across the entire surface, as I mentioned,

01:23:46   because of the way it works,

01:23:47   rather than like the older trackpad has a hinge at the top,

01:23:51   and so the bottom of it pushes down the furthest,

01:23:54   so you kinda have to click at the bottom

01:23:56   to make the old style work,

01:23:58   whereas the ForceTux, you can click anywhere on it,

01:23:59   and it doesn't matter where you click,

01:24:00   and it does the same feedback regardless.

01:24:02   My problem is, the old way of having to click on the bottom,

01:24:06   well that's fine, that's what I've always done.

01:24:07   Like before that one, when there was the button

01:24:09   only at the bottom, the separate button

01:24:11   with the old soundtrack pads,

01:24:12   that's what we all got used to.

01:24:13   That's why that one was designed that way,

01:24:15   was because you could basically just keep your fingers

01:24:17   all in the same spots and do the same thing

01:24:19   and it would still work.

01:24:20   The Force Touch, even though it is now uniform

01:24:23   across the whole surface, no part of that surface

01:24:26   feels as good as the bottom half of the old track pad.

01:24:29   There's three different settings for how firm

01:24:31   you have to press and then how much feedback you get

01:24:33   as a result of that.

01:24:35   As I was pressing on it, I didn't feel like

01:24:39   I was pushing a button sometimes.

01:24:41   I never forgot that I was kinda

01:24:43   mushing my finger against glass.

01:24:45   Again, as I said earlier, it feels like 80% like a button,

01:24:48   but not like a button, you know,

01:24:50   because it doesn't get all the way there.

01:24:52   Maybe having that deeper force click,

01:24:55   like the third level click,

01:24:56   maybe that is gonna be so compelling in time

01:25:00   that I'll tolerate it, or maybe, as I mentioned on Twitter,

01:25:03   like maybe I will just convert into a tap to click person,

01:25:06   which I've never been, and I tried it once,

01:25:08   I experimented back in college, you know,

01:25:10   I tried it once, I didn't like it, I switched back,

01:25:13   but like, I just don't like it, simple as that.

01:25:16   So the MacBook One has a keyboard I really don't like,

01:25:20   a trackpad I just normally don't like.

01:25:24   The problem is that all the things I would do on it

01:25:26   would involve a lot of typing.

01:25:27   (laughs)

01:25:29   So today I decided it was just not for me,

01:25:32   and I returned it.

01:25:33   - Did you let Tiff try it?

01:25:36   - I don't think, I didn't.

01:25:38   She was making fun of me for even having gotten it.

01:25:42   - I just wanted like, you know,

01:25:43   I had none, if you gave this,

01:25:46   'cause I've heard so many stories of people,

01:25:48   regular people going into the Apple store,

01:25:50   and not knowing that the button didn't move down, right?

01:25:53   Or not realizing that the keyboard was different

01:25:55   in any significant way, and I'm wondering

01:25:56   how noticeable are these differences to people,

01:26:00   to people for whom buying a new computer,

01:26:03   like I feel like they just expect it to come

01:26:06   with a host of minor differences and inconveniences.

01:26:10   I like my old screen better.

01:26:11   I like the way the old laptop was shaped.

01:26:13   I like the old laptop's color.

01:26:14   I don't like this keyboard.

01:26:15   Like if you buy a new Mac every five years,

01:26:18   you are forced to deal with these things.

01:26:20   You know, I liked it when the Trackboard had a button,

01:26:22   right, you know, 'cause if you're upgrading

01:26:24   not very frequently, every new Mac you buy, it seems like,

01:26:28   has one of these things where you're not used to something

01:26:32   that you touch on the thing.

01:26:34   The keyboard is different, the trackpad is different,

01:26:36   the screen is different, it's missing some ports,

01:26:38   it doesn't have an optical drive, so on and so forth.

01:26:40   And yet people still continue to buy new computers

01:26:44   just because that's like the price of doing things.

01:26:45   So I'm wondering, would normal people even notice

01:26:50   that this keyboard is different,

01:26:51   or would they accept that it is as different

01:26:53   as them upgrading, I guess we've had a long sort of run

01:26:57   of trackpad and keyboard continuity,

01:26:59   so they have to be coming from either the arrow

01:27:01   with the button on the trackpad,

01:27:02   or, I mean the keyboards have been the same forever,

01:27:04   except plus or minus some flexibility in the underpinnings.

01:27:08   But yeah, that's why someone who cares less

01:27:10   about these things and is less picky, frankly,

01:27:13   would they care and be like,

01:27:13   "Oh yeah, whatever, it's keyboard,

01:27:15   "you can use it with the trackpad,

01:27:16   "oh, I didn't even notice anything different about it,

01:27:18   "whatever, it's fine."

01:27:19   - And that's very possible.

01:27:21   I mean, you know, there are certainly,

01:27:23   it is certainly valid to be skeptical or critical

01:27:26   of my point of view here, because you think

01:27:28   that I just don't like it 'cause it's new.

01:27:30   And that's, I might, that's, I don't know.

01:27:33   What I can say is that in the last, I don't know,

01:27:36   three, four years, I have gone through periods

01:27:40   where I have regularly used six different keyboards.

01:27:42   I have used five different desktop keyboards

01:27:45   and one keyboard on the laptop,

01:27:47   one keyboard style on the laptops,

01:27:48   'cause I haven't changed this keyboard in a long time.

01:27:51   Every time I've moved to a different keyboard,

01:27:54   there's been a very short period of adjustment

01:27:57   of a few hours, and then I'm fine.

01:27:59   And on this keyboard, on the MacBook One keyboard,

01:28:03   after like an hour, I was really fast

01:28:06   and fairly accurate on it.

01:28:07   And so I think I was able to adjust to it quickly.

01:28:12   I just didn't like it.

01:28:14   And none of the other keyboards

01:28:16   that I've used during this time,

01:28:17   I haven't thought that way about them.

01:28:19   this was definitely the worst keyboard, in my opinion,

01:28:22   it was the worst keyboard I've ever used.

01:28:24   I don't say that lightly,

01:28:25   I used to use a Gateway 2000 keyboard.

01:28:27   And then I used a Dell keyboard at work for a long time,

01:28:30   back in my first job.

01:28:32   And I really can honestly say

01:28:33   this was the worst keyboard I've ever used.

01:28:35   I wanted to like it.

01:28:36   It's not that I went into this hoping to trash Apple

01:28:38   and return the laptop, that is the last thing I wanted.

01:28:41   I really had convinced myself

01:28:42   that it was going to work for me.

01:28:44   I really wanted to like it,

01:28:45   because physically you look at this machine,

01:28:47   pick it up, you close it up and you carry it and you're like, "Oh my god, this is great!

01:28:51   This is amazing!" I wanted this to work so badly. And I just couldn't. I couldn't do

01:28:58   it.

01:28:59   I really want to go into a store and try one of these things. Because I had a similar sort

01:29:03   of even longer uniformity of keyboard experience. I used the Apple Extended 2 keyboard from

01:29:09   basically 1989 to 2003. After that I made the transition to a series of terrible Apple

01:29:16   USB keyboards until I finally settled on the aluminum, the current aluminum one that I

01:29:20   have now that's been around for many years.

01:29:22   And I think maybe these key switches on the aluminum ones aren't the same as they are

01:29:25   on laptops, but they're very, very similar if they're not identical.

01:29:29   And so there has been a surprising amount of continuity in recent history and for most

01:29:33   of your Mac life of, you know, keyboard feel and exact keyboard mechanism for the past

01:29:39   several years, right?

01:29:41   And I'm assuming they're not going to go to this super slim keyboard everywhere because

01:29:46   it's so obviously a compromise for thinness, why in the world would they do that?

01:29:50   And then of course I have flashbacks of why in the world would they use the keyboard from

01:29:54   the 12 inch powerbook on the 17 inch powerbook.

01:29:57   But anyway, I'm assuming that they will not go to this super shallow travel keyboard and

01:30:03   the little bubble switch mechanism that goes with it on all the other laptops.

01:30:08   4 star trackpad of course we assume is going to be everywhere and they're just going to

01:30:11   take that and you're going to deal with it.

01:30:13   I'm not worried about the trackpad

01:30:14   because I hate all trackpads

01:30:16   and if I hate this one slightly more, so what?

01:30:18   Like it's gonna, on a scale from one to 100,

01:30:22   I like trackpads about a five

01:30:23   and if this one is a three, whatever, you know,

01:30:25   it's not a big difference.

01:30:27   But for the keyboard, I'm worried because I hate laptops,

01:30:32   period, I don't like their keyboards at all,

01:30:37   not because of the key presses,

01:30:38   but because I'm missing the keys on them.

01:30:40   And if they make them even worse,

01:30:42   Like maybe I'll just switch to typing on my iPad

01:30:45   with my Apple Bluetooth keyboard or something

01:30:47   if I needed a, which is what I do anyway, you know,

01:30:49   when I was taking notes at WWDC.

01:30:51   I either have a giant Battleship notebook,

01:30:53   which I don't like, or the little iPad.

01:30:55   I don't like typing on glass,

01:30:57   even though I can kind of sort of do it, you know,

01:31:00   at maybe one eighth speed.

01:31:01   But I also, you know, it's like the 11 inch Air.

01:31:05   I would love to have a little Air.

01:31:06   And like, this is like, isn't this the perfect computer?

01:31:08   Beautiful retina screen, really small.

01:31:11   but if I can't type on it, you know,

01:31:13   so I really need to try one of these out

01:31:15   and see exactly how crazy you are.

01:31:18   - Yeah, I mean, I would, please do,

01:31:20   I would love to hear your take on it,

01:31:21   just to, 'cause like, ever since I published this,

01:31:23   of course, because I wrote something about Apple

01:31:27   that was not entirely positive,

01:31:29   it spread all over the stupid rumor sites,

01:31:30   or the sensational sites today. (laughs)

01:31:35   I don't know why I blog anymore.

01:31:36   Honestly, like, when somebody takes my article

01:31:39   and puts a sensational headline on it and rewrites it,

01:31:42   makes it sound way worse than what it actually was,

01:31:44   that's the kind of stuff that makes me

01:31:45   not wanna blog anymore.

01:31:47   - Well, you know, if you want me to doctor,

01:31:49   I can word doctor this up to make it,

01:31:50   I mean, these sensational ones

01:31:52   just took it totally out of context, so forget about them.

01:31:53   They're just gonna, they're gonna make stuff up or whatever.

01:31:55   But for the other people getting, you know,

01:31:58   like, does the wording have to do with other people

01:32:02   getting up in arms about it,

01:32:03   making these vulture sites realize that there's,

01:32:05   where there's smoke, they can make fire

01:32:07   by setting things on fire and making things up,

01:32:10   I don't know.

01:32:11   What you've said here is describing

01:32:13   why you don't like the keyboard,

01:32:14   but then in the article you say,

01:32:16   until now Apple has never shipped a keyboard

01:32:18   that it was less than great.

01:32:19   Everything you said is more or less subjective.

01:32:21   You don't feel like it's flimsy, it's not falling apart,

01:32:23   it's not missing your keystrokes, right?

01:32:26   So when you write about these things,

01:32:30   transitioning from here's why I can't stand this thing

01:32:33   to this marks a decline in the quality of a component in an Apple laptop that had previously

01:32:39   been excellent throughout its history. That's what I think gets people cranky and then the

01:32:45   vultures come and just have their way with the whole article.

01:32:48   I think what we need to find out and what we can only find out with time is whether

01:32:54   Apple thinks this is really the best new keyboard and whether it does go into products that

01:33:01   that don't need to be this thin,

01:33:03   or whether it is only ever really in these like

01:33:06   super thin lines of the laptops.

01:33:08   - I like the idea, the fantasy idea that everyone thought of

01:33:11   when they showed the little video is,

01:33:13   a key cap that goes up and down straight,

01:33:16   kind of like, you know, a mechanical key cap

01:33:17   doesn't wobble when you hit it,

01:33:18   but the scissor key caps with the little, you know,

01:33:20   if you look at the little plastic bits under there,

01:33:22   this is little bendy plastic bits.

01:33:23   And they do kind of like, they do go off center

01:33:26   and wobble a little bit when you hit them, right?

01:33:29   It would feel sturdier if they just went straight up

01:33:30   straight down. So take the more sort of like less wobbly key caps but then

01:33:38   give them more travel which I guess would mean you have to change the

01:33:41   mechanism because it sounds like your biggest complaint about this is not even

01:33:44   so much a travel but the mechanism of the lack of travel forces the key to

01:33:47   have the little dome thing like I'm assuming that's at the root of the the

01:33:51   unpleasurableness of this keyboard. You know can you get the non wobbly benefits

01:33:59   like the fact that it feels solid that you know and the larger keys and the

01:34:03   smaller gaps can you get that but also have good travel and a key switch?

01:34:06   Maybe you can't like certainly these new MacBook Pro 15 inches are not a measure

01:34:11   of whether Apple is going to do this because we've already said they're

01:34:14   they're just a stopgap solution and we have no idea what their grand plans are

01:34:18   doesn't have USB C port so we may have to wait a long time until we find out

01:34:21   what does Apple think about this keyboard is it confined to this little

01:34:26   skinny laptop or is something like this gonna happen elsewhere? At the very least, it'll

01:34:30   be interesting to see if they just make the keycaps bigger and just use the same mechanisms,

01:34:34   you know?

01:34:35   - I would expect the first major redesign to be next year when Skylake comes out because

01:34:40   Skylake introduces Thunderbolt 3, maybe there'll be new ports, maybe they'd have USB 3 ports

01:34:45   or USB-C ports then. So I would expect the first post MacBook major redesign of another

01:34:53   as a laptop to happen within the next, I don't know,

01:34:56   nine to 12 months.

01:34:57   Whenever Skylake actually can ship in the 13 and 15

01:34:59   retina MacBook Pro, I'm guessing that's when we see it.

01:35:03   So we'll know in about a year, we'll know whether

01:35:06   this keyboard moves on to other things or stays here.

01:35:10   But I don't know if it's possible to use this kind

01:35:14   of key switch design in a way that's good.

01:35:17   - In a way that you like, 'cause that's what I'm getting.

01:35:22   the first person I've heard to have a visceral negative reaction to this thing, and my bet

01:35:28   would be that most people are not in touch with these nuances of the hardware that they're

01:35:34   using. But we'll see.

01:35:35   Well, I would say, I mean, Jason Snell's argument I think was very similar to mine.

01:35:39   I mean, he liked the rest of the machine a little bit better than I did, but his, I very

01:35:43   much agree with him on the keyboard, which is, he said something along the lines of,

01:35:46   I got used to it during the review, and I could type very quickly on it, but I hated

01:35:50   every minute of it. That is basically how I felt about it. I could type on it just fine,

01:35:54   I got really fast really quickly on it, it wasn't that big of a deal to adjust, but...

01:35:59   But keep in mind where most people do their typing, which is with their thumbs on a phone

01:36:04   screen, which is way worse than this keyboard. Like that is the common experience, I'm just,

01:36:08   I'm wondering like what the tolerance is for this type of thing, both because people are just so

01:36:12   used to the new computer they buy being different in all sorts of weird ways and they just get used

01:36:17   to it and the idea that people seem generally not to be sensitive to keyboard feel at all

01:36:24   in my experience. Like regular people who are not computer enthusiasts, who don't read

01:36:28   computer magazines or computer websites, keep up with computing or whatever. I mean like

01:36:33   you said, they could Dell, the Gateway keyboards, those keyboards that feel like you're just

01:36:36   pushing something down to modeling clay, they're just totally mushy. You remember those things?

01:36:40   I mean that's what I think of when I think of like the Gateway and Dell keyboards, like

01:36:43   they just felt like mush.

01:36:44   I'd rather use that.

01:36:45   And people just clack away on them all day long in an office and don't say a word and

01:36:50   it's not even a thing that occurs to them.

01:36:52   Not that I'm saying that's the bar for Apple, like they should find something that is good

01:36:56   for people who enjoy those types of things, but I'm thinking what will make Apple change?

01:36:59   Because you know Apple's not going to say, "Oh, well, some people don't like the keyboard

01:37:02   feel, so let's make the next one thicker."

01:37:04   Right?

01:37:05   Because they're down to the wire here.

01:37:06   They're down to either we don't put battery under the keyboard, which is going to massively

01:37:10   cut into our battery space and it's basically untenable. Or we make the thing thicker. They

01:37:16   have backed themselves into a thinness corner here and so if they can't make this work,

01:37:20   it's going to take some significant feedback. There's going to have to be some backlash

01:37:24   of like, there has to be word on the street among like, there has to be a USA Today article

01:37:28   like "Don't buy the new MacBook because the keyboard sucks." But I don't see that article

01:37:32   coming anytime soon so far. I feel like it would have been out there already, but we'll

01:37:35   wait and see.

01:37:36   And what you're right about,

01:37:38   like you know, back into the fitness corner here,

01:37:41   what aggravates me about this is that they didn't need to.

01:37:45   Like what aggravates me most about this,

01:37:48   you know, the 11 inch Air hardware

01:37:49   versus the MacBook One hardware proves

01:37:52   that they could have done a retina MacBook One

01:37:55   kind of computer, they could have done that,

01:37:58   even at two pounds, like they could have fit all of this in.

01:38:02   - Oh, but it would have to be a different shape.

01:38:03   I mean, you know, this is the only shape

01:38:04   this case could possibly be, sorry.

01:38:06   - There's no room for anything else.

01:38:07   - No, but the 11 inch air is the same shape,

01:38:08   it's just a little bit bigger, like--

01:38:09   - No, not exactly the same shape.

01:38:10   If you add one millimeter to this machine,

01:38:12   it is no longer good.

01:38:13   This is the product Apple envisioned.

01:38:14   Accept their vision.

01:38:15   Why won't you accept it?

01:38:16   There's no room for anything else.

01:38:17   - This is the problem.

01:38:18   Like, they made this giant compromise on this keyboard.

01:38:22   And again, time will tell whether it's clear

01:38:26   that Apple thinks it's a compromise

01:38:28   or whether they actually convinced themselves

01:38:29   this is better, I don't know.

01:38:30   - I mean, the scissor keys that you like,

01:38:32   the ones on your 15 inch, those were also a compromise

01:38:35   from the old style of key,

01:38:37   because they've been gradually saying,

01:38:39   how much can we shave off our laptop keyboard?

01:38:40   I mean, I've got a Mac portable upstairs

01:38:42   that has keys like that you see on,

01:38:44   again on a Dell and a gateway keyboard,

01:38:45   like huge vertical, like old school desktop keys.

01:38:50   The life of laptop keyboards has been

01:38:52   a gradual thinning of them.

01:38:54   How much thinner can we make it?

01:38:55   How much thinner can we, so the one that you like

01:38:57   is itself a thinness, if you wanna call it compromise

01:39:00   or advance, a thinness advance over the previous one,

01:39:03   which is an advance over the previous one,

01:39:04   advanced over the previous one. And they change mechanisms those things going

01:39:09   from plunger things to scissor keys going from scissors keys to dome switches

01:39:12   I don't think this this advancement is that much out of step with all the

01:39:17   previous advancements but if you had been around for the transition to

01:39:22   scissor switches from plunger switches you probably would have felt the same

01:39:25   way that like I can type fast on these scissors switch keyboards but I hate

01:39:30   every minute of it but like eventually all there is is scissor switches and

01:39:33   and everyone just gets used to it.

01:39:34   - That's fair, maybe that'll happen here, I don't know.

01:39:36   But it just, it kinda drives me nuts

01:39:40   that they made a massive compromise on this keyboard

01:39:45   that doesn't honestly look necessary.

01:39:49   - Well, you'll be begging for these dome switches

01:39:51   when they go to a capacitive touchscreen for their keyboard.

01:39:54   (laughing)

01:39:55   - Yeah, definitely.

01:39:56   - Oh, God.

01:39:57   - All right, well, thanks a lot

01:39:59   to our three sponsors this week,

01:40:00   Bushel, Harvest, and Fracture,

01:40:02   and we will see you next week.

01:40:04   (upbeat music)

01:40:07   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:40:09   ♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

01:40:12   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:40:13   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:14   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:40:16   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:17   ♪ John didn't do any research ♪

01:40:19   ♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪

01:40:22   ♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

01:40:24   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:25   ♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

01:40:26   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:40:28   ♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM ♪

01:40:32   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:40:41   So that's Casey List M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:40:45   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:40:50   USA, Syracuse, it's accidental (it's accidental)

01:40:56   They didn't mean to, accidental (accidental)

01:41:01   Tech, podcast, so long

01:41:06   So did your computer finally die or what, Casey?

01:41:09   Yeah, what happened?

01:41:10   Yeah.

01:41:11   Oh, God. You gotta tell us what happened.

01:41:14   We need the Deathwatch website. Go check it.

01:41:16   Well, when you're a man of habit, you sometimes forget to change your habits.

01:41:23   Oh, no.

01:41:24   And sometimes you repeat habits you don't want to repeat.

01:41:27   So it just went for another swim.

01:41:30   I tried to tell you about the drink on a different level, not just far away on the same table,

01:41:38   but on a different physical level.

01:41:40   So here's the thing.

01:41:41   Oh my god, what happened?

01:41:42   Perfectly below, water below, computer above.

01:41:45   I don't have another level to put it on, Jon, unless I stack it on like...

01:41:49   You got a tray table, you got an upside-down garbage can, maybe like one of those camelback

01:41:54   things with a tube, so you run with the tube.

01:41:57   I'm so angry at myself right now.

01:41:59   podcasting camelbacks that oh my god I I feel so bad laughing right now so

01:42:06   seriously how long when did neutral start it was January of 13 something

01:42:10   like that yeah so it's been two and a half years that every single time I

01:42:16   record either of my two podcasts I get my what is this like a it's a beer glass

01:42:21   basically it's like a pint glass or something like that full of water and I

01:42:24   stick it where my mouse goes because I don't use a mouse with that computer and

01:42:27   and I record my show and for two and a quarter years I never had an issue.

01:42:33   Then I put a little bit of water on her computer and I told myself, "This will never happen again.

01:42:39   You will use a water bottle that if you spill, nothing will come out."

01:42:44   Like a sippy cup?

01:42:45   Well, no, like a, um, shoot, what is the name of those things?

01:42:48   I can't remember what it's called and I don't have it in front of me.

01:42:50   Well, that's the problem is I don't have it in front of me.

01:42:52   [Laughter]

01:42:53   But I can't think of the name of it.

01:42:54   of it. But, well, if you worked, you would know what I'm talking about. But because you

01:42:58   never leave the house, you have no idea what I'm talking about.

01:43:02   And so…

01:43:03   I do have a house full of sippy cups.

01:43:04   Well, that's true. So it's like an adult sippy cup. Let's just leave it at that. It's

01:43:08   not a Camelbak. It's, I don't know, I forget what the hell it's called.

01:43:11   An Algene bottle?

01:43:12   Well, yeah. Well, no, but this doesn't have a lid. It has a little like spout that flips

01:43:16   up kind of like some child cups. And it doesn't matter. Anyway…

01:43:19   It's an adult sippy cup. Let's move on.

01:43:21   an adult sippy cup. So some f*** here forgets that that's the new routine. And apparently

01:43:29   my new routine is to spill water on Aaron's laptop. So this time it went for a good swim,

01:43:35   and I immediately flipped it upside down, and everything was fine until I jostled the

01:43:39   power cord. Then it turned off, and it doesn't seem to want to turn back on on its own juice.

01:43:47   So I think I fried it.

01:43:49   So this was just a plain old open, today was just an open cup, that's why you're probably

01:43:52   you went back down.

01:43:53   Yes, and I've been doing well with using the water bottle, but because I'm an idiot, I

01:43:58   and I'm seriously I'm so programmed by routine that I just got my normal glass of water like

01:44:05   I always do or did.

01:44:09   Oh my god, I feel so bad for you right now.

01:44:11   You didn't like, I thought your move would be now that was again you should have honed

01:44:15   this move now, you know, flip it upside down, but would you also, have you also not been

01:44:20   yanking out the power cord at the same time?

01:44:21   No, not last time, because the podcast was my priority, so I left it running.

01:44:26   You gotta have a full battery while you're podcasting and floating your computer.

01:44:29   And so, I mean, like, once the water spills on it, like, the move would be, flip it over,

01:44:33   yank out the cable, no?

01:44:34   Oh no, everything was left plugged in, because the podcast is the priority.

01:44:37   Don't try to bring up the podcast. Don't try to say this is the podcast's fault.

01:44:41   No, it's not the--

01:44:42   Don't drag fall up into this case.

01:44:44   Oh my god, I'm not blaming the podcast. I'm blaming my own dumb

01:44:48   This way Casey if it really is dead

01:44:50   Then we have it has ended your suffering of wondering when it's when some a bit of corrosion

01:44:56   You know what? I mean? That's the silver lining rather than like a long drawn-out

01:45:01   Period where you're nervous about is it gonna you know, this is just like the quick. Oh, no, no, I might come back, you know

01:45:08   Somewhere around here. I have a screwdriver. That's like a double. Oh, there it is

01:45:12   It's a double zero screwdriver that of course isn't the right size for these screws because they're so god darn

01:45:17   Microscopic that I can't get it open so I was trying to pull the bottom cover, but I'm afraid I'm gonna strip the screws

01:45:26   It's got a

01:45:28   See there happened or it hasn't you can try to get the water out dry it out. Maybe we'll start back up again

01:45:33   Who knows?

01:45:35   Mmm, the problem is I get no one to be angry at by myself. I'm not I wasn't trying to blame the podcast

01:45:41   I have no one to be angry at but myself.

01:45:44   - Don't be so hard on yourself.

01:45:45   No, I mean, I know you're probably

01:45:47   really ridiculously frustrated right now.

01:45:49   'Cause that's like, I always feel the worst

01:45:52   when I screw something up.

01:45:54   And I know it's totally my fault.

01:45:56   And it's just so embarrassing and frustrating

01:45:59   that it's just me, I just screwed up.

01:46:01   Like that's it.

01:46:02   - Yeah, that's the thing.

01:46:03   It's like, oh god, it's my own fault.

01:46:05   - Just think of it this way.

01:46:06   Like the thing I've noticed for people

01:46:08   with expensive Apple hardware is a surprising number of people break them

01:46:13   by dropping them onto hard services including laptops not just phones and

01:46:17   iPads but laptops too. The number of laptops I've seen with very large dents

01:46:21   in them or shattered screens from being dropped onto hard services is

01:46:24   surprisingly high so at least you're avoiding that one. Water spillage, you

01:46:29   don't see those it's not as visible I guess either takes out the computer or

01:46:32   doesn't but I see lots of people dropping their things and you know this

01:46:36   This all just argues for the next materials revolution in Apple's laptops.

01:46:40   So the long time they were like everything else where it's like a metal frame with plastic

01:46:44   on the outside and then there was this weird transition with the titanium and everything

01:46:47   and eventually they settled on glass and aluminum, machined aluminum.

01:46:53   There will be another materials revolution sometime in our lifetime that will make these

01:46:56   things more durable to drops and hopefully more water resistant, let's say.

01:47:03   You know what the other frustrating thing is?

01:47:05   It's not like my old ThinkPad, which I could, like, you know, puff air into it and kind

01:47:09   of try to blow the thing out, but this, I, uh...

01:47:11   Yeah, I don't think that would help, because I think, I mean, you don't know, are you blowing

01:47:14   little water droplets towards the part that they're going to damage or away from the part

01:47:18   that they're currently damaging?

01:47:19   I don't, I don't, I wouldn't suggest that move.

01:47:24   There's also no lights, so I can't even tell what's happening.

01:47:26   All the reasons I love my Macs, now I'm hating every one of them.

01:47:32   I hate everything except you guys.

01:47:34   - Alright, so we're gonna fix this problem,

01:47:37   you're gonna get a new computer,

01:47:38   and then we're going to tell you about

01:47:40   these awesome policies a lot of homeowners insurance

01:47:43   companies have that are accidental damage coverage

01:47:46   for things like computers.

01:47:48   - We'll hope the insurance adjuster doesn't listen

01:47:49   to the program when he assesses your risk.

01:47:51   - Yeah, seriously.

01:47:53   Seriously.

01:47:54   - I mean, you could look at, you know,

01:47:56   rather than being so hard on yourself for this moment,

01:47:59   look at it instead as you've recorded like 120 podcasts,

01:48:03   130 podcast episodes and you've only filled water during two of them also

01:48:08   also the number of your belongings that you care about the Declan will destroy

01:48:13   will quickly dwarf this so don't worry about it yeah exactly yeah plugging it

01:48:18   back into power and trying to turn the thing on it's not helping either oh wait

01:48:21   wait wait wait wait wait hold on hold on I see an Apple logo you may have you may

01:48:26   not have an undead computer it may actually be a zombie computer at this

01:48:30   point the sad thing is I was really going to tell you like beg you to cut

01:48:33   all this out of the show, but now, if this actually comes back to life even momentarily,

01:48:38   this may be worth leaving in.

01:48:40   - It's worth it.

01:48:41   - Oh, it's back on.

01:48:42   It's back on.

01:48:43   It's back on.

01:48:44   I mean, yeah.

01:48:45   - But when you type, your fingers get wet, but it's back on.

01:48:49   - I mean, first of all, you should probably turn it off, but the problem is, like, the

01:48:52   battery's always connected on me.

01:48:53   It's like you have to disassemble it to disconnect the battery.

01:48:56   So it's kind of always powered to some degree.

01:49:00   - Yeah.

01:49:01   - I turned it back off, but there's hope.

01:49:04   Oh, God.

01:49:05   - Now, with the last spill,

01:49:08   when we got everyone's weird recommendation--

01:49:10   - The fact that you just had to say last spill is so bad.

01:49:13   - I know, I'm sorry.

01:49:14   - Like, I'm not mad at you, I'm just saying it's so bad

01:49:16   that we have to now specify which friggin' spill it is.

01:49:18   - I know, but anyway, for the last spill,

01:49:20   did you learn any techniques or tricks that you can use now

01:49:24   or that you did already use?

01:49:25   - Clearly not, Marco, I just spilled again.

01:49:27   I know what you're saying, I know what you're saying.

01:49:31   No, I heard all the wives' tales and husbands' tales about how to get stuff out and so on

01:49:41   and so forth.

01:49:42   And really, the reality of the situation was I was just very lucky.

01:49:45   I know this probably sounds like crap because I keep trying to look at this thing and try

01:49:49   to salvage it, so I apologize.

01:49:52   Not practicing good microphone technique, but anyway.

01:49:54   It's totally worth it, though.

01:49:57   So yeah, so—

01:49:58   We gotta keep this in.

01:49:59   I know we do.

01:50:00   and I'm we're gonna be talking about it in the future probably so we got to

01:50:04   leave it it like did you know you can play this like a friggin harmonica

01:50:09   into your thing it's a terrible song it's also a keyboard not not a bad

01:50:21   keyboard but still a keep I think I would rather use that keyboard wet than

01:50:27   the MacBook One keyboard. At least, I mean the only thing I've got, well two things going

01:50:32   for me. One, I'm not drinking, which is probably good because then it's just doubling down

01:50:37   on the ineptitude. Wait, were you drinking last time? No, no actually I wasn't. Maybe

01:50:41   this is the problem. Yeah, it's true. Maybe that is the issue. But no, I'm not drinking,

01:50:47   which means it's only a single, a single level of ineptitude, however repeated. The

01:50:53   - The funny thing is, if you were drinking

01:50:54   like a highly distilled, very alcoholic spirit--

01:50:57   - It might be less damage.

01:50:58   - Yeah, it actually might be better.

01:51:01   It would evaporate a lot faster

01:51:03   and there would be less stuff in it.

01:51:04   - That is a good point, actually.

01:51:05   The vodka would have just evaporated instantly.

01:51:08   No, that's what I was gonna say.

01:51:10   It wasn't like a Sprite or anything like that,

01:51:13   so at least it won't be sticky.

01:51:15   - Oh, man.

01:51:17   - I am such an idiot, you guys.

01:51:19   - So either way, so if this doesn't make it,

01:51:23   then John wins, then you will at least,

01:51:27   it'll at least be over.

01:51:28   If it does make it, it'll be really impressive.

01:51:32   Either way, the show wins.

01:51:34   Unfortunately, either way, I think you lose

01:51:36   and Aaron loses.

01:51:37   - Yeah, we just got an email recommending the depot repair

01:51:40   that Marco just did on his thing

01:51:42   that apparently it covers water damage as well.

01:51:44   So if you just wanna throw it to the mercies

01:51:46   of the depot repair and pay them 300 bucks.

01:51:49   - Well, that's the thing, though.

01:51:50   That's what we talked about a few episodes ago

01:51:52   that I've heard the Depot repair is free if you are nice to the genius. I've heard it's

01:51:56   $300. I've heard it's $800. I've heard, I think once or twice, it was over $1,000. I

01:52:01   kid you not, I have probably heard 10 to 20 responses as to how much a Depot repair is.

01:52:07   And of those 10 to 20 responses, I would say I've heard five or six different answers.

01:52:13   Well, but don't you find out the price before you send it though? Or no? Well, yes, for

01:52:17   the deep, not for all repairs, for the Depot repair, yes, because it's a flat rate repair.

01:52:20   The depot repair is literally like,

01:52:22   you give them X dollars, whatever it is for that model,

01:52:25   and then they replace anything in there that fails testing.

01:52:30   Now, so the problem you'd have, first of all,

01:52:32   is what if they get it and they run the test

01:52:35   and they all pass?

01:52:36   (laughing)

01:52:38   - Oh, God, that would be kind of funny.

01:52:41   It would be terrible, but it would be kind of funny.

01:52:44   - From what I've heard, there is a separate type of repair

01:52:46   for water damage, where they basically replace

01:52:48   entire logic board and everything inside. That is a lot more expensive. That's the one

01:52:52   that I think somebody told me was $900 for that model that you have. So it's, that's

01:52:58   the one that's really not worth doing in most cases.

01:53:01   You know what maybe I, what I probably should do if I'm really honest is I should just spend

01:53:05   the $1000, $1100, whatever it was, and get Erin her own freaking MacBook Air and then

01:53:11   leave this one, if it still works, as the "Oh my god, when is it going to die? You did

01:53:18   this to yourself" podcasting computer.

01:53:20   - It, well, it's kind of the worst podcasting computer, if you think about it. Like, the

01:53:26   last thing you want for a podcasting computer--

01:53:28   - Is something unreliable?

01:53:29   - Something that is very unreliable potentially, and also that's really easy to spill stuff

01:53:33   into.

01:53:34   - Oh, god. I am so angry at myself right now.

01:53:38   Well, hey, you know what? If you get the MacBook One, it wouldn't have a fan, so that would

01:53:42   solve the problem of your other computer.

01:53:44   Yeah, that's true. But I mean, honestly, the funny thing is I actually am due for a new

01:53:48   computer, both at work and at home. I mean, leaving aside the MacBook Air, I should take

01:53:53   actually—well, my room is—my office is such a mess, but I was going to say I should

01:53:57   take a picture of the puddle of water that's adjacent to where the computer sits that was

01:54:03   other debris from this spillage,

01:54:06   'cause it's a significant puddle.

01:54:08   - Maybe you could sign the computer and auction it off.

01:54:11   - Yeah, seriously.

01:54:12   - As fan art from the show.

01:54:13   - Right, oh, God. - An artifact.

01:54:15   - I'm such an idiot, like, I'm mad it happened,

01:54:18   but just like you said, Marco, I'm more than anything,

01:54:20   I'm mad that I didn't learn from my last mistake.

01:54:23   God, I'm such an idiot, like, you're fine,

01:54:26   be easy on yourself, look, I mean,

01:54:28   you're gonna screw things up in life sometimes,

01:54:30   that's reality, that's a human being, I mean, look--

01:54:32   - Yeah, but learn from it!

01:54:33   You have a kid now that you have no idea how many screw-ups are ahead of you.

01:54:36   Yeah, if you want to see spilled drinks at the table, you know, like just start counting

01:54:40   them up until you just, I mean, my kids are still spilling drinks.

01:54:44   Double-digit ages on it.

01:54:45   It's not preventing routine.

01:54:46   Well, I'm 33 and I'm spilling drinks every freaking week.

01:54:49   I know, well I'm saying, you know, there's no use crying over spilled milk or spilled

01:54:53   water.

01:54:54   It happens, you know.

01:54:55   Yeah, that's life.

01:54:56   This stuff happens.

01:54:59   Maybe it's some kind of sign from some kind of spirit that just really hates MacBook Airs.

01:55:04   Maybe. Or just really hates that one.

01:55:05   I don't know. You have a cursed MacBook Air.

01:55:08   Now after doing this twice, it removes all doubt that in at least this way I am the idiot

01:55:12   of the three of us, and that's also deeply frustrating.

01:55:15   Oh come on, no it doesn't.

01:55:16   Perhaps the least coordinated. I'm not going to say it has anything to do with intelligence.

01:55:21   Maybe control of your limbs. But I don't think you can directly correlate that to intelligence,

01:55:26   Otherwise they would make like, you know, the world's greatest athletes the world's

01:55:29   smartest people.

01:55:30   I just bought a whole computer wrong.

01:55:34   That's a thing you do though.

01:55:37   Yeah, that is just the thing you do.

01:55:39   [BEEP]

01:55:40   [