117: You Don't Have the Antibodies


00:00:00   How's that low level C audio code or whatever the hell it is you're working on I'm making progress

00:00:05   Do you have any hair left to pull out of your head Marco? No, this is why I cut it short

00:00:11   To make to make that impossible. I knew I was gonna be working on core audio this week

00:00:16   So I got a fresh haircut number two on the razor nice and that that means it's too short to realistically grab hold of

00:00:23   Like that. I'm good. Still got a handful

00:00:25   Maybe he might not have a little fingers like pincers

00:00:29   So any pre-follow-up stuff we need to worry about?

00:00:33   There is no pre-follow-up. Only post-follow-up and follow-up and more follow-up.

00:00:39   And lots and lots of follow-up.

00:00:41   Maybe the show is pre-follow-up.

00:00:43   At this point, should we just call this the Accidental Follow-Up Podcast?

00:00:46   Well, there's follow-up and then the main topics are really just pre-follow-up for next week.

00:00:49   It's so true. So let's do our follow-up so we can get to the pre-follow-up. We should probably

00:00:57   start with talking about our discussion about how to attract or encourage women

00:01:04   and girls to listen to the show. And unsurprisingly we got a lot of feedback

00:01:09   about this and I appreciate and I know we appreciate all the feedback. A lot of

00:01:15   it was really good, pretty much all of it was really interesting, and it's

00:01:21   It certainly opened my eyes a bit on it with regard to how

00:01:25   Men reacted to it how women reacted to it and and so

00:01:30   Just a few things. I think we should talk about

00:01:32   Upfront, I think first and foremost

00:01:35   we I

00:01:38   Would say we caught a little bit of flack about spending so much time talking about advertisers and Harry's

00:01:43   Specifically and I think that's reasonable

00:01:46   I think the the problem with the way the last episode went is that because we spent so much time talking about

00:01:52   Talking about the advertisers it appeared as though that was the thing we thought was the biggest

00:02:00   Priority just by virtue of the fact that we spent so much time on it and in reality

00:02:04   That's not at all what any of us think is the biggest priority the first thing to change

00:02:09   It's just as per usual

00:02:11   we got wrapped around the axle on that topic and I don't know if any of you have ever heard this show but

00:02:17   we sometimes get off in the weeds and that's exactly what happened and

00:02:20   And I think while the discussion I think was good

00:02:25   I don't mean for it and I'm pretty sure you guys don't mean for it to be representative of

00:02:30   What we think is the right approach to fix this problem. It just so happens. We got off in the weeds

00:02:36   I think actually I would back up for a second

00:02:38   Here's how I maybe we all have different opinions of this feedback, but here's how I would characterize

00:02:43   So first first of all, I want to say that I still feel like I'm I'm still processing that feedback

00:02:47   I agree like and all I mean partly because it's still coming in and partly because I think it was like

00:02:53   The most upsetting to me feedback that we've ever gotten in the show

00:02:57   And there was a wide wide range of responses. The feedback was all over the map

00:03:03   But the title of the top of that map was probably like you guys are dummies like I felt like this was

00:03:08   Skewed way negative like consensus is we are dummies

00:03:12   It's not to say that it's not useful. But like sometimes we get feedback

00:03:17   That's like just providing information or supportive or whatever, but pretty much all this feedback was telling us

00:03:23   Things that we missed or whatever. I mean some of it was I guess feedback because we solicited feedback, but it was fairly negative. I

00:03:32   Don't know if that surprised me. I think I was kind of dreading

00:03:35   discussing this topic because I kind of figured this would be the the feedback we would get but it's

00:03:40   The fact that I'm still processing it makes me feel like I don't I don't quite know

00:03:45   What to think and you I think what you highlighted is

00:03:49   Probably the only dominant theme that I saw in it because like I said, even though it was mostly negative

00:03:55   It was wide-ranging like people had very different ideas about what we got wrong, right? So a

00:04:01   Wide range all in the negative round, but the one thing a lot of people seem to agree on you already hit is that?

00:04:05   regardless of how they felt about the ads

00:04:08   That that was not the core issue

00:04:11   People who said you absolutely have to get rid of the ads

00:04:13   Also ads are not at the core issue people who said you absolutely have to keep the ads also the ad is not the core

00:04:18   Issue right so that I feel like is the only consensus that I could draw out of this so far two things

00:04:23   One that we didn't do a very good job and two that the ad is a distraction regardless of what people feel about it

00:04:30   What did you think of it?

00:04:33   Am I being too negative on the negativity, Marco,

00:04:35   or did you get that impression as well?

00:04:37   - No, that was pretty much it.

00:04:39   I mean, this was, I mean, I'm also still

00:04:43   processing a lot of it.

00:04:44   I would say just anecdotally,

00:04:46   I don't know if you guys feel the same way,

00:04:48   I would say anecdotally, this was probably the most words

00:04:51   we've gotten in feedback on any topic.

00:04:53   It has taken me a long time to even just read

00:04:57   the feedback email, there's been so much of it.

00:05:00   And most of it has been very informative.

00:05:02   I mean, overall, there was definitely a prominent pattern

00:05:07   to a lot of it that began with, I'm a man, but,

00:05:13   and then a giant wall of text that showed really

00:05:17   a pretty poor understanding of gender issues

00:05:20   and technology, or ever in life.

00:05:24   And that, I'm a little saddened by.

00:05:27   - Didn't you feel like, though, that was like

00:05:28   easiest feedback to handle.

00:05:30   Yeah, I ignored most of that.

00:05:31   Because, I mean, it's depressing that we're going to get that type of thing, but it's

00:05:36   the type of feedback you read and you're like, "All right, well, so I know these people are

00:05:41   out there, I know they're listening, they have different opinions and values than we

00:05:45   do."

00:05:46   But it's easier to, I don't know, I feel like it's easier to process, because I feel like

00:05:51   They, in many respects, they are who we are most capable of reaching, right?

00:06:01   Like if we can reach those people, then that will affect change, right?

00:06:05   If we can turn those people around or just even move them more towards what we think,

00:06:11   you know, our value system, that that will be a success.

00:06:14   And they were sort of showing us, here we are over here, if you feel like moving us

00:06:19   towards your way of thinking, "This is where we are, so now you know what you got your

00:06:24   work cut out for you."

00:06:25   Yeah, it was surprising to me. I think most of the email, while negative, was informative.

00:06:33   There was certainly a lot of, "Hi, I'm a dude," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:06:38   "Okay, so you should really improve it." But the thing that struck me was, gosh, the

00:06:42   immediate Twitter replies to the ATP account were

00:06:45   Disappointing and

00:06:48   I'm sir. I was certainly and remain taken aback by it because I

00:06:54   Was very surprised

00:06:57   About how many replies we saw which basically

00:07:02   made me think that

00:07:05   We were all members of the he-man woman haters Club

00:07:08   which I don't remember signing up for and I don't remember that being a thing and

00:07:12   That was that was a little bit disappointing not all of them, of course, but a lot of them

00:07:16   Well, I mean, I think that's that is the most much more interesting feedback to me also more upsetting but much more interesting

00:07:22   and because it's

00:07:24   It's I don't know it's giving us new information as opposed to just saying

00:07:28   Hey, there are people out there with regressive ideas about women and technology like really already knew that but

00:07:34   The other side of the coin is more enlightening and I would say for the feedback again trying to characterize it

00:07:39   we got more feedback from women than usual which is expected in this type of topic and

00:07:44   the reason I was emphasizing the wide range is

00:07:47   You know as I tried to emphasize in the last show like women are not a monolith

00:07:53   No individual woman who tweets at us or writes to us is is purporting to speak for all women

00:07:58   They are just individuals, right?

00:08:00   And that's why getting a lot of feedback is good.

00:08:03   Because otherwise, if you just get feedback from three people

00:08:07   and they all have three different opinions,

00:08:08   you have no idea what to think.

00:08:09   If you get feedback from 300 people,

00:08:12   then maybe you can start sort of slicing and dicing it

00:08:15   and trying to figure things out.

00:08:17   And so soliciting feedback is one thing.

00:08:19   And the second thing, which many people emphasize,

00:08:22   is you solicit the feedback and then

00:08:23   you have to actually read it and listen to it, right?

00:08:26   The difficulty in doing that correctly,

00:08:29   as on the last show I talked about,

00:08:31   one difficulty is try not to be defensive,

00:08:34   try not to feel like you have to answer everything,

00:08:35   try not to feel like every piece of advice

00:08:37   is an accusation, so on and so forth.

00:08:39   You know, try not to suffer from male answer syndrome,

00:08:41   all these bad instincts that are in me definitely,

00:08:45   and maybe in you too as well, you have to fight those.

00:08:49   But the second thing is, with this huge range,

00:08:52   even talking about something as silly as the ad,

00:08:54   which everyone more or less agreed

00:08:55   was not the core issue here. Just looking at the women who gave feedback on the ad,

00:09:01   you can't possibly do what "everyone" wants because they want contradictory things.

00:09:08   Some women said, "You absolutely have to keep the ad removing. It would be insulting."

00:09:11   Some women said, "You absolutely have to remove the ad. Its presence is insulting."

00:09:15   So if we get their feedback and we listen to it, at some point we have to do something.

00:09:22   And there is no course of action.

00:09:24   It seemed to me that a lot of the people writing in all camps, no matter what their opinion,

00:09:28   believe that they didn't seem to leave a lot of room for other possibilities.

00:09:34   Many people wrote in to say, "This is the situation.

00:09:37   You guys are dummies who are not seeing it.

00:09:39   And the answer is obvious.

00:09:40   Just do what I say."

00:09:41   Right?

00:09:42   But it's like, you know, just that one email, it's fine.

00:09:46   But it's like, you read one email after the next, after the next, after the next, and

00:09:49   like if I do what you want then these 10 people are gonna be upset if I do what

00:09:52   they want then these 50 people are gonna you know that's that's that's our job

00:09:56   our job is to solicit feedback accept it read it listen to it try to understand

00:10:01   it and then decide the what the right thing to do for us is right and that's

00:10:08   why I feel like I'm still processing because it's difficult right like you

00:10:11   know to sort of be in the people pleaser mode where you're like we're trying to

00:10:14   do the right thing here right we're trying to solicit feedback if only there

00:10:17   was a quote unquote answer, but there's not. There's lots of people's opinions and lots

00:10:22   of people's answers and we have to figure out how do we make forward progress on our

00:10:29   goals based on this feedback and it's just, it's kind of making my head spin at this point.

00:10:34   Well, but I think one thing I think that we can all agree on besides cheese, ding, is

00:10:41   that we got a lot of feedback because we asked for it and that's exactly what we want.

00:10:47   We were asking the question to our audience,

00:10:50   especially to the women in our audience,

00:10:53   what can we do to help address this massive gender imbalance

00:10:57   in our audience and in tech podcasting

00:11:00   and in tech as a whole.

00:11:01   This is a big problem.

00:11:03   I don't pretend to be an expert on this.

00:11:08   I'm far from it.

00:11:09   I do, however, want to improve it.

00:11:13   As a guy who is a smart ass and has always been a smart ass,

00:11:17   I've always had the problem of I rush right to

00:11:23   thinking I have an answer to something.

00:11:25   And as we saw in the email and as many women see

00:11:28   every single day, that's a very common thing

00:11:31   in this business.

00:11:33   And that's a very common thing among men in general.

00:11:35   The attitude that we just have an immediate answer

00:11:38   for everything and we know everything about everything

00:11:41   and we can quickly explain away anything or any problem.

00:11:45   One of the things that I think everyone would agree on,

00:11:50   which there isn't much in this argument

00:11:52   that everyone would agree on,

00:11:54   but I think everyone who's on the right side of this

00:11:56   can probably agree that especially we men

00:11:59   need to be listening more.

00:12:01   We need to be asking and listening more.

00:12:04   We just need to be listening

00:12:05   to what women are actually telling us.

00:12:09   It was very valuable to see all that feedback, even though a lot of it was contradictory

00:12:12   from women about what we should or shouldn't do.

00:12:16   The fact is we asked, we are listening, and we are going to continue to ask and listen.

00:12:20   And to all the men out there who responded in that matter-of-fact way, this is going

00:12:26   to be hard for you to change in your life.

00:12:29   It's certainly hard for us, but you have to be open to the idea that the first step when

00:12:35   this question is asked is to listen to what women are telling you, listen to what they

00:12:40   have to say, to ask them and to be listening and to care, not just to jump to thinking

00:12:44   you know the answer. Because really, that is such a big problem for so many people.

00:12:52   And it is really, this is really primarily a problem with men that do this. The fact

00:13:00   is the world is not a perfectly balanced place where everything is equal. It's far from it

00:13:04   and that's the whole problem we're trying to address,

00:13:07   it is okay to recognize that even if you think

00:13:11   you're being good, and even if you think

00:13:15   that you are helping, there are gonna be things,

00:13:19   and Jon, you talk about this a lot,

00:13:20   there's gonna be things that you subconsciously do,

00:13:23   or that you just do 'cause you've always done them,

00:13:25   or that's just the way you think,

00:13:26   that you think are normal and neutral, but they're not.

00:13:29   And so it is of utmost importance that men in particular

00:13:34   Don't just jump to thinking you know the answers here.

00:13:37   Really sit back and listen,

00:13:39   'cause there's a lot that we need to hear.

00:13:42   - That's what I talked about on the Gamergate episode,

00:13:43   one of the suggestions I made to the audience

00:13:45   of people who may have been sort of sympathizing

00:13:47   with Gamergate, and I was trying to look for something

00:13:51   that I could suggest that would be actionable

00:13:54   and that I felt like would make real change

00:13:59   based on what has worked for me.

00:14:00   I was suggesting, I forget which Twitter accounts

00:14:03   I suggested but a bunch of people's Twitter accounts like the everyday sexism Twitter accounts

00:14:08   I probably I'm sure I suggested Brianna was the Twitter account like just follow these Twitter accounts

00:14:12   It was my suggestion, but then don't ever reply to them. Just read just read the tweets

00:14:17   And I said it's like the tweets are gonna make you angry. Sometimes you're gonna disagree with a lot of them

00:14:24   the whole idea is like a one-year plan of like

00:14:27   Subscribe and read the tweets like, you know make don't make it crazy volume

00:14:31   Just have it in the mix of your Twitter and I'm doing this in terms of Twitter, but you could do anything blog posts

00:14:35   You know who you?

00:14:36   Whose Facebook posts you read what sites read or whatever?

00:14:39   Just read them even if for the entire year you absolutely 100% disagree with every single thing that you read

00:14:45   Because I feel like the osmosis of that like sort of just being in contact with those ideas

00:14:50   Will slowly affect your worldview because it's essentially forced listening. Like you're not really listening

00:14:56   You may be reading them like hate reading them like go look at these dummies. I disagree with everything. They so dumb

00:14:59   They don't know anything about anything right if you just keep reading them like and the everyday sexism one is a great example

00:15:05   It's like you just read day after day after day of like minor things that happen to people or situations

00:15:11   They're in I feel like it will eventually get through to you like this is not made up stuff and like

00:15:16   Because I think the volume is important right and so we are subjecting ourselves to this essentially voluntarily to try to you know

00:15:23   You know bring us bring us the feedback tell us what you think

00:15:28   Give us your ideas

00:15:30   And we just kind of have to soak in it like, you know, it's like by you know

00:15:35   We're soaking it into some degree but like by actually inviting it

00:15:38   We're kind of getting a big dose of it dumped on our head and that's part of the process

00:15:43   Of course, this is a podcast and this is follow-up. And of course we do have responses to things

00:15:49   so we're kind of violating our own rules here, but I'm the

00:15:52   the reason I suggested all that Twitter stuff is like that's how I feel like I got into this like just

00:15:58   And, you know, gamergate was a big part of it, but even before that, reading like every

00:16:02   single post about these things, reading people, following new people, looking at their tumblers,

00:16:07   following them on Twitter, just reading everything, mostly not responding to it, mostly not engaging

00:16:12   with people on Twitter, but just like reading it.

00:16:14   And gamergate was like, the peak was just like every day, like 17 new things to read.

00:16:19   And then following the links, following the threads, following the different people to

00:16:23   where they come from, what's their background, what have they written before, what have they

00:16:27   done, you know, like that kind of sort of, it's not sort of like ambient research or

00:16:33   whatever on the topic is I felt has been most influential in my life and changing myself

00:16:39   on these topics. And like I said, this feedback is part of that. And now that I've said all

00:16:45   those things to try to be deferential and everything, now I have to go and ruin it by

00:16:48   responding to what I think was the harshest criticism we got, because I think it's the

00:16:53   one thing, again, this isn't like, this wasn't the most common, but if I look, if I go over

00:16:56   to the most negative end of the spectrum of the feedback we got. It's not, believe it

00:17:02   or not, from the people who have regressive ideas about women in tech. Their feedback

00:17:06   tended not to be harsh, tended to be, I don't know, condescending and patronizing. But the

00:17:11   most harsh ones and the ones that felt the worst were feedback from women who, the gist

00:17:17   of this feedback was on the topic of changing the host lineup and changing the format of

00:17:25   the show saying essentially if you don't do one of those two things then it shows

00:17:30   you don't care about women at all and this is all BS front and that's the

00:17:35   harshest version of that there's just like you know saying these two things

00:17:40   are the test for you if you don't if you refuse to do things as we said I talked

00:17:45   about last show we didn't want to change the host line of the show we didn't want

00:17:48   to turn into an interview show we basically ruled those out and I feel

00:17:51   like people hearing that people hearing us say you know we read through this

00:17:55   big list of suggestions that people suggested to us. And then we ruled out those two right

00:17:59   off the bat. And it just feels like every other encounter women have had in technology

00:18:04   where it's like the people in the position of power hear their concerns and then immediately

00:18:10   dismiss them. So it's like slamming the door in their face. And I understand why people

00:18:13   are angry about that. I understand why we got that feedback, why the people are feeling

00:18:17   the way they did, why they felt compelled to go to the feedback forum and write those

00:18:21   things in. But I, you know, the... I responded to some of these people, and what I said in

00:18:30   all the responses was similar, was that, as I said in the show, that would... that would

00:18:35   absolutely make the show more appealing. You know, given, granted, like, this is feedback

00:18:43   we received, I agree with them. Where I disagree is, by us not doing those two specific things

00:18:50   and only those two specific things change the host lineup, turn the show, change the

00:18:53   show format to be an interview show, that somehow there's nothing else we can do to

00:18:58   make the show more appealing to women, to get more women listeners.

00:19:02   I totally disagree with that.

00:19:03   I think there are a ton of things we could do to find more, you know, to make the show

00:19:09   more inclusive, to find, attract more women to the show.

00:19:15   It's just a tremendous amount.

00:19:16   We read a whole bunch of them on the last show.

00:19:17   tons of people sent us feedback with ideas, right?

00:19:20   The only two things we ruled out

00:19:23   were changing the host lineup

00:19:24   and changing the format of the show to be an interview show.

00:19:27   Everything else, including the Harry's ad,

00:19:28   I might point out, was on the table, right?

00:19:31   And so that feedback, like,

00:19:33   like it hurt the worst because it shows that those people,

00:19:36   what they came away with was that we were,

00:19:38   that we were dismissing them,

00:19:40   that we were just doing exactly what has been done to them

00:19:43   in the entire technology industry for their entire life,

00:19:45   is just like, "This popular show that I listen to is going to address my concerns for a moment."

00:19:50   And door slammed in face, right? That's the experience they got out of the show, which

00:19:53   is terrible. Not our intention. Obviously we did a bad job, but I still have to say

00:19:58   that I feel like our show can exist in its current form and be better than it is. That

00:20:05   we can make positive progress towards our goal of inclusiveness. And maybe that's not

00:20:11   enough progress maybe we can make more progress by changing the show in those ways but I feel

00:20:16   like it's like that this show has value and can be better in its current form I don't know if that's

00:20:21   like so a lot of the worst feedback again made it sound made it feel like maybe feel like that

00:20:26   our show just should not exist like that it is an affront to the cause and that the world does not

00:20:32   need another three dudes text podcast and the best thing we could do is just change it in a

00:20:37   fundamental way so it's a different show and if we don't do that it shows we really don't care and

00:20:41   and you would just we don't want to do anything that will that will

00:20:43   perturb our happy little home in any way and I feel like that is a

00:20:46   Mischaracterization and that we were totally willing to do anything within the bounds of the current show

00:20:51   Again, we provided you know granting entirely that it would be make the show more attractive to women if we did those things

00:20:58   But I we want to have our show with the three of us. This is our show. I feel like I

00:21:02   You know, it's a valid thing to do to have the show with the three of us. I

00:21:09   Don't know I don't know how else to do characterize that without without just sort of reinforcing everything

00:21:14   They think that's basically like oh you just want to have your show and that's that I

00:21:17   I do want to have the show with the three of us and I

00:21:20   feel like that show can be better and I feel like some positive progress and making that show better is

00:21:25   It's positive right is it as positive as it could be if we you know and and you know

00:21:32   I don't want to go into the it's a I'm that's why I should have

00:21:37   getting more defensive by the moment. But if you go into the, you know, I'll stop myself here. But

00:21:43   what do you guys have to think about this topic? Yeah, I have all the feedback we got.

00:21:47   A lot of it hurt in the sense that it made me very angry because I was disappointed in in the very

00:21:56   chauvinistic things that I saw. But the stuff that actually hurt the in cut the deepest was when a

00:22:05   a woman would write in and say, like you had said, John, basically, if you don't fundamentally

00:22:10   change the show, then you're just a bunch of liars. And, well, John, like you said,

00:22:18   John, that absolutely would be the number one best way to put our money where our mouth

00:22:23   is. That is, I don't think it's unreasonable for us to take that off the table. And I,

00:22:28   and even though the show is in so many ways about binary, the show itself is not binary.

00:22:32   And there is a lot of in the middle that we can do to improve ourselves and to improve

00:22:38   the way we handle the show and just generally make things more inclusive without changing

00:22:45   the three of us.

00:22:46   And I should point out that we got a fair bit of women that wrote in that said, "I understand

00:22:52   why someone would ask you to change the lineup, but don't do that because the reason I listen,"

00:22:59   as several women that wrote in, the reason I listen is because of the three of you and

00:23:04   because of the chemistry you have and because of the way you beat each other up over white

00:23:07   cars and fish and so on and so forth. And if you change that lineup, it could ruin everything.

00:23:16   And so if this is the most hurt I've gotten, I'm still coming from a place of indescribable

00:23:22   privilege and I recognize that. But it was, it was really, it really bummed me out because

00:23:27   Because I feel like I want to work together, the three of us and the women that listen

00:23:34   and the men that listen, and I just want to work together to make this a more inclusive,

00:23:39   happy place.

00:23:41   And I feel like, just like you said, Jon, there is somewhere in the middle between doing

00:23:47   nothing and completely eviscerating the lineup as it exists today.

00:23:51   I would go even farther, because from my perspective, as I said, women are always trying to get

00:23:57   underrepresented in tech podcasts. And like we should, I think we linked to Rocket last week,

00:24:01   we should put more links in the show notes of other podcasts, tech podcasts that are very similar

00:24:05   to ATP, but have women on them. There's the Vector podcast with Georgia Dow and iMore, there's the

00:24:10   iMore podcast with Serenity and Ali and then Rocket. Like the fact that I can't name more than

00:24:17   a handful of these off the top of my head shows you there is not a lot of them, but they are out

00:24:20   there. And so women looking to hear other women's voices on the topics of tech, you

00:24:26   know, there are options and I think there should be more of them. You know, should

00:24:31   our show be one of them? Like our show is our show is the three of us, right? But

00:24:35   like from from my perspective, I think it's very possible that we can do maybe

00:24:41   not more good, but a tremendous amount of good by talking to our, you know, making

00:24:47   our show more inclusive so it doesn't feel like that if you're a woman

00:24:50   listening that you somehow shouldn't be and this isn't the place for you, right?

00:24:52   So a lot of the things are like, what can we do to change? Tons of things like, what can we

00:24:56   stop doing that is bad? What can we do that is that is repelling women, right?

00:25:00   Can we, you know, we only talk about a certain number of things each week.

00:25:04   Out of the huge range of things we could talk about, by picking different things to talk about,

00:25:10   can we change the show? And most importantly, I feel like, even if we are completely unsuccessful

00:25:15   in our efforts to get more women and girls to listen to the show,

00:25:19   by talking to the men who listen to the show, that is probably, realistically speaking,

00:25:24   our best avenue for positive change. Because if we could snap our fingers and convince all the men

00:25:29   on the show to get on board with our way of thinking about this, as regressive as ours even

00:25:35   may be, but just like to move them along the continuum, that would be a tremendous benefit.

00:25:39   And that's one of the pieces of feedback I have heard from a lot of people, especially people

00:25:41   deeply entrenched in this issue, is that if you can change... It's the men's behavior that needs

00:25:48   to change, right? So we were all about like, can we make the show more inclusive? Can we make sure

00:25:51   we're not doing anything to repel women? We had to get rid of the men to say, in a nice way,

00:25:57   we can't say like, "Oh, you guys are all bad people. You shouldn't listen." Like, that is not

00:26:00   it. That is not it at all. We want to be able to, like, bring people along with the ideas that we

00:26:07   have. And even if we're only just talking to men, that is a huge way that we can make a positive

00:26:14   of change in this area.

00:26:16   So I feel like the three of us, if we change the show

00:26:21   while keeping the format and while keeping the three of us

00:26:23   there, I still feel like we can do a massive amount of good

00:26:25   if we can just figure out how to do it

00:26:27   and get our acts together.

00:26:29   - We also got a lot of feedback that was suggesting

00:26:33   what would make the show more appealing to women,

00:26:38   but that's how the people presented it,

00:26:41   but in reality, it's not about,

00:26:44   it would make the show more attractive to anybody

00:26:46   of any gender, it had nothing to do with women.

00:26:48   So things like just making it easier for new listeners

00:26:53   to get into the show.

00:26:53   So not spending the entire show on follow-up,

00:26:56   not being too much inside jokes, stuff like that.

00:26:59   - Nobody said don't send the whole show on follow-up.

00:27:01   Don't try to throw a follow-up under the bus

00:27:03   and mix it into the other topic, nice try.

00:27:05   - A few did, but anyway, it was--

00:27:06   - Who did that, jump in that email.

00:27:09   - You think I keep email, that's great.

00:27:12   - I do read it, I don't keep it.

00:27:14   No, there are things about our show format

00:27:17   that we can definitely improve on,

00:27:19   things that will make it easier for any new listeners

00:27:22   to come in and to stick with us.

00:27:25   And that's, a lot of people frame those things as,

00:27:28   here's why women don't like your show,

00:27:30   which is a complete BS,

00:27:32   or it's at least not the whole story.

00:27:34   It's like, here's why a new listener might not stick around.

00:27:37   That's the real story.

00:27:38   And so there are things there that we need to

00:27:40   and should improve to get more women listening,

00:27:44   mostly because that's how we get more people listening.

00:27:47   Like it has nothing to do with women.

00:27:49   - Well, I mean, like I said on the past show,

00:27:51   you can, like some of them were, you know,

00:27:53   like, not that they said this, but as I said last time,

00:27:56   if we talked about politics, we would have much broader appeal

00:27:59   than if we talk about programming.

00:28:00   And a lot of people, we've always got complaints

00:28:02   when we go into the super programming stuff,

00:28:04   but bottom line is that's one of the things

00:28:05   that we wanna talk about.

00:28:06   We are three programmers on a podcast.

00:28:09   We're gonna talk about programming.

00:28:10   Some people love the programming, some people hate it.

00:28:14   That's more of just a narrow versus broad issue.

00:28:16   It is not specifically a gendered issue, I feel like.

00:28:19   But yeah, a lot of people say, "I'm not super into programming, so whenever you talk about

00:28:25   programming, I tune out."

00:28:26   And we've been getting that feedback for the life of the program.

00:28:28   There is a ceiling on our appeal.

00:28:31   If we did a show about politics, it would have way broader appeal, but that's not the

00:28:36   show we're doing.

00:28:38   So in many ways, it's the same type of thing.

00:28:42   Oh, so you want to broaden your eyes?

00:28:44   You want to get more women to listen?

00:28:45   Well, change what you talk about.

00:28:46   It's like, yes, OK, change what we talk about in what way?

00:28:48   Well, I would love it if you didn't

00:28:49   talk about programming anymore.

00:28:50   Well, yeah, there are lots of women programmers

00:28:54   who listen who like when we talk about programming.

00:28:56   We're doing a show about programming.

00:28:57   I would love it if you didn't talk about Apple.

00:29:00   Maybe more people would listen if we didn't talk about Apple,

00:29:02   if we talked about something with much broader appeal.

00:29:05   So that's something we have to deal with.

00:29:06   We're always trying to say, well, you know,

00:29:08   within the confines of what?

00:29:09   Oh, you wanted brought another show,

00:29:10   but you don't want to change your show.

00:29:12   We do want to change it within the confines

00:29:14   of the topic area, right?

00:29:17   And the three of us and everything.

00:29:18   And that's like, to many people,

00:29:20   that is basically sort of like,

00:29:22   you don't really want to change.

00:29:24   You say you want to change.

00:29:25   You say you want to make the show more inclusive.

00:29:27   You say you want to make it more appealing,

00:29:28   but you don't want to actually change anything

00:29:29   about the show.

00:29:30   And I reiterate again,

00:29:31   I think there are just so many things we could change

00:29:33   within this format to do better.

00:29:35   Just a tremendous amount of things we can change

00:29:37   that we will hopefully be working on moving forward

00:29:40   that can make this show more inclusive

00:29:43   and change people's hearts and minds

00:29:47   who do listen to the show, men or women on whatever,

00:29:50   I don't know.

00:29:51   I just feel somewhat defeated by this entire topic.

00:29:56   - Yeah, and I think we should probably put a fork in it

00:29:59   for today and a couple of quick thoughts.

00:30:01   First of all, if you are listening to this and don't care for it, I am sorry to hear

00:30:09   that.

00:30:10   Please do not bother writing in to tell us that you don't care for it because this

00:30:13   is going to continue to happen and you can either carry on with the show or not.

00:30:20   But this is something that's very important to the three of us and we're going to keep

00:30:24   talking about it and that's just the way it is.

00:30:26   And it's absolutely on topic.

00:30:28   This is a major problem in the tech industry.

00:30:31   It is definitely relevant for tech podcasts to talk about this issue.

00:30:35   Yeah.

00:30:36   And the other thing, I'm seeing a lot of angst in the chat room right now that we're

00:30:41   doing a lot of navel gazing and talking about the show and talking about, "Oh, what could

00:30:46   we do?

00:30:47   What could we do?"

00:30:48   But not doing anything.

00:30:49   Two quick thoughts on that.

00:30:50   First of all, I think just talking about this is doing something.

00:30:52   I mean, would you rather us not talk about this?

00:30:55   I don't think that's really a solution.

00:30:57   And secondly, outside of the show, in Private Conversations between the three of us, we

00:31:02   are absolutely discussing pretty much anything that we've gotten in email.

00:31:08   We are discussing and considering pretty much everything.

00:31:14   Even things we probably don't want to do or may not do are on the table in Private Conversations

00:31:20   between the three of us.

00:31:21   I ask only that you bear with us and give us a chance to get our heads around everything,

00:31:25   us a chance to put things together and watch the space. I know it's probably not happening

00:31:31   as quick as it should, it's probably not happening as quick as it could, but we are working on

00:31:36   it and we are trying as hard as we can. And expect us to screw up, like expect us to do

00:31:43   badly again, you know what I mean? Like it's not, don't expect miracles, right? And we

00:31:48   will never go as far as some people want us to go. People will always be disappointed

00:31:52   in us. Like, people will be disappointed that this show exists at all, which is clear from

00:31:55   the feedback sometimes, right? But, you know, some people like it. It's like, I just feel like,

00:32:04   you know, that one of the traps that men fall into when they get into this topic is like,

00:32:08   I'm gonna, I'm gonna do good here. I am going to champion the rights of whatever, you know,

00:32:14   oppressed people that I'm getting behind this cause, blah, blah, blah. And then they get told

00:32:20   that what they're doing is wrong and they're like "but I was trying to help, well forget you guys,

00:32:26   now I'm not even going to help anymore" and it's like that's exactly, you just have to,

00:32:29   that's exactly the wrong attitude and we're trying mightily to avoid that. Like it's,

00:32:33   you have to understand that everyone is not going to agree with you, everyone is not going to like

00:32:40   you, and the closer you get to trying to make some kind of progress, the more angry people will be

00:32:44   that you didn't go far enough. And that is a positive force I feel like, pushing us in the

00:32:49   right direction not the wrong direction. I'm trying to get that as as a wind behind us.

00:32:53   As we become ever more disappointing to the people who are really invested in this cause,

00:32:58   I'm hoping we're actually moving more towards like we're making positive progress in that direction,

00:33:03   right? That we're not going the other way, that we don't get repelled by that, that we don't

00:33:06   that we don't start to resent the idea that boohoo people said mean things to us who are quote

00:33:11   unquote on our side. I want that to be a wind at our back rather than something deterring us from

00:33:17   pursuing this. So, Plex. Yeah, I spoke last week about how the Synology, or certain Synology,

00:33:26   specifically I think I cited the DS214 play as having the proper hardware to transcode

00:33:34   video and do so quickly, which makes it really great for Plex. A handful of people very gently

00:33:39   pointed out to me that I am full of crap, and that the 214 does indeed have the right

00:33:44   hardware. However, Plex does not have access to it because of whatever is going on within

00:33:51   the Synology. I don't know the technical details, but suffice to say I'm full of crap.

00:33:56   So what I have found, or I think a listener actually pointed out to me, is a list of all

00:34:02   the different network attached storage devices that Plex will run on. And it will, and it

00:34:08   It shows exactly what these devices can and cannot transcode in a reasonably performant

00:34:15   way.

00:34:16   So we will put that in the show notes.

00:34:18   I apologize if you took any action on my BS recommendation.

00:34:22   I did not realize that I was dead wrong, but hopefully I've caught you before you spend

00:34:26   any money.

00:34:27   I do love my Synology.

00:34:29   I do not have a 214 anymore.

00:34:32   I have one that is not at all well suited for transcoding.

00:34:35   And so I do recommend Synologies in general, but I cannot recommend the 214 that I previously

00:34:41   recommended because as it turns out, they are a terrible idea for Plex.

00:34:46   So check out that list and buy one that actually works to do the things I thought the 214 would.

00:34:52   Yeah, I had high hopes for that hardware transcoding, but I don't use Plex.

00:34:56   So what I found was that when the hardware transcoding was useful, it was good.

00:35:00   But if you are downloading more exotic, weird formats, or you have no idea what the hell

00:35:06   formats you are downloading, legally, of course, very often the hardware transcoding can't

00:35:10   handle it.

00:35:11   And there's one thing about software transcoding, it may be slower, but it can do a much broader

00:35:18   range of things.

00:35:19   So I find myself wishing that rather than hardware decoding, I really had a faster CPU

00:35:24   to do software decoding, software transcoding.

00:35:26   All right.

00:35:28   What is going on with iPhoto and Time Machine?

00:35:31   - I think this was right after last week's show

00:35:33   that we got this feedback direct link

00:35:35   to an Apple support article saying,

00:35:36   "Whatever happened to that thing?

00:35:37   "Did I imagine that Time Machine integration?"

00:35:39   Apparently I did not imagine it,

00:35:41   although this thing doesn't have screenshots.

00:35:42   It says, "As of iPhoto 11,"

00:35:45   which was version 9.2, obviously,

00:35:47   and OS 10 Lion 10.7.2 or later,

00:35:53   that's when iPhoto lost the ability to browse backups,

00:35:56   as they call it.

00:35:57   according to the Apple article,

00:35:59   this means that instead of restoring specific photos

00:36:01   within your iPhoto library,

00:36:02   you must restore your entire iPhoto library.

00:36:04   So I forget when iPhoto 11 was, I'm assuming 2011,

00:36:07   but that's when this feature went away

00:36:08   and there was no more integration.

00:36:10   And I assume this is a feature that was never public

00:36:12   for like third-party apps,

00:36:14   that it was something only iPhoto could do

00:36:15   'cause it was written by Apple.

00:36:17   And it has fallen by the wayside, sadly.

00:36:20   Or maybe it's a good thing, I don't know.

00:36:22   - Our first sponsor this week is Cards Against Humanity.

00:36:26   And as usual, they have sent Jon a toaster to review in lieu of a sponsor read here.

00:36:31   So Jon, what is the toaster that Cards Against Humanity sent you to review this week?

00:36:35   So this week we've got the Cuisinart Custom Classic Toaster Oven Broiler, which I guess

00:36:40   has a sensible name.

00:36:42   It is model number T capital O capital B hyphen four zero, another model number with both

00:36:48   an O and a zero in it, which boggles my mind.

00:36:51   I don't know how they keep anything straight.

00:36:54   This is about the same size as my Breville 650L or whatever my model number is that I

00:36:59   always forget.

00:37:00   It is a legit four-slice toaster oven.

00:37:05   It's got four unshielded resistive heating elements inside it.

00:37:09   It has a very straightforward UI.

00:37:11   This is the first toaster that I did not ever need to look at the instructions for, which

00:37:14   is saying something.

00:37:15   It shouldn't be, but it is.

00:37:17   That's really sad.

00:37:18   Yeah.

00:37:19   Three knobs on the – I usually look at the instructions and figure out if there's some

00:37:22   nuance I'm missing.

00:37:23   Like I could usually operate any toaster, but then like, okay, but then what about,

00:37:27   you know, there's some nuance here that I'm probably missing.

00:37:30   I need to look at the manual.

00:37:31   This one has just had three knobs, one for function, like toast, broil, bake, reheat,

00:37:36   whatever.

00:37:37   One for temperature that goes from, you know, the normal range of toaster oven temperatures

00:37:40   in degrees Fahrenheit and one for toast shade and the toast shade one you set to like, you

00:37:46   know, it's a big range.

00:37:47   You set it to what you want and then there is a start stop button.

00:37:50   So if you find the correct setting for your toast every morning, you don't have to adjust

00:37:53   it, you just press the button, it does it repeatedly.

00:37:54   So that's all good.

00:37:57   There is no timer at all, which I didn't notice until a little bit later.

00:38:00   I'm like, you know what, there's no way for me to set this thing for 10 minutes, 15 minutes.

00:38:04   No timer at all, which is a very interesting simplification, almost an Apple-like move.

00:38:07   They're like, because it's very difficult to incorporate all those things together and

00:38:11   have all the desirable features of not having to figure out where the setting is without

00:38:15   either going to something digital like the Breville where you have, you know, a computer

00:38:18   display, right? Or LCD display. Or making your thing complicated. So there's just no

00:38:23   timer at all, this. Or if there is, I didn't find one because I didn't read the manual.

00:38:27   But I'm pretty sure there's no timer. Just a start/stop button.

00:38:29   Now, does that make it harder to use the oven feature? Because obviously with a toaster,

00:38:34   you don't really need a timer, you need the darkness knob, which it does have. But does

00:38:38   the lack of a timer make the oven feature less useful to you?

00:38:41   It depends. Like, you should know that it doesn't have a timer if that's something you

00:38:44   rely on. I find that with any feature except for toasting on my existing toaster oven,

00:38:48   I don't tend to use the timer. I just kind of like put it in. If anything, it kind of annoys me if the

00:38:52   timer is too low, like if I'm reheating something and the timer was like six minutes, I'm like,

00:38:55   "Oh, actually I want to just..." I usually just turn the knob and I say, "Just 30, 60 minutes.

00:38:59   Like I'm never... I'm going to take it out when I feel like it's done. I'm not going to forget

00:39:02   about it." Right? But if you want a timer, this is not the toaster for you. The knobs themselves,

00:39:06   really good knob feel. Actually, it's probably average knob feel, but compared to the knob feel

00:39:12   on these other toasters it is phenomenal right and by the way if you don't know

00:39:16   what the knob feel YouTube channel we'll put a link in the show you should check

00:39:19   it out it's just that's a thing wait really you don't never heard of the knob

00:39:23   feel YouTube channel no are you honestly surprised that we have never heard of

00:39:26   that yes cuz it's like a meme it's like it's not like an obscure you know it's

00:39:30   supposed to be funny like it's a guy who just films himself fiddling with knobs

00:39:33   and I think he made a terrible mistake at the beginning of like the his format

00:39:40   is he films his hand fiddling with knobs and then he doesn't say any words he makes noises

00:39:44   like grunts like mmm like that's that's it and he's really confined himself by not having

00:39:50   words like there's tons of these videos if he only had incorporated words it would be

00:39:54   a much richer experience i feel like anyway um these knobs are are weighty and smooth

00:40:00   and they feel expensive and like the best comparison is my Breville toaster which has

00:40:05   like the worst feeling knobs i've ever felt on an appliance in my life and i don't understand

00:40:09   Why this or all I do because they're made of plastic and they're flimsy, you know

00:40:12   But like why why didn't they spend more money? Right? Anyway, great knobs one big problem with these knobs though

00:40:16   You can't tell where the knobs are pointing

00:40:19   because like that the knobs have like a matte black plastic around them with ridges and one ridge is ever so slightly taller than all the

00:40:26   Other ridges and you can tell by feel where that ridge is

00:40:29   But by looking at it forget it like and there's no markings on the front of the knob like a little red triangle or something

00:40:34   So figuring out where the knobs are pointing like what what function is this set to what temperature is it set to you?

00:40:39   Basically have to feel on the thing, especially if your toaster is in a slightly darker, you know under a counter type area

00:40:44   They really blew it on those knobs. Great knob feel not great knobs and

00:40:50   It's got a tray in it. That's kind of like a u-shape like dip down which seems weird to me, but then I realize

00:40:56   What they want you to do and I actually confirm this by looking at the little pictures on the side of the boxes

00:41:01   You can there's two different sets of slots

00:41:04   You can slide the tray into but then within each slot you can flip the tray over to

00:41:08   Do plus or minus like an inch because of the dip and the thing it's hard to explain

00:41:12   I want to put a picture in the show notes

00:41:13   But anyway, there's essentially four different positions

00:41:15   You can put the thing in not just two two slots in each slot you can put in two different positions

00:41:20   That seems like an interesting idea to get more flexibility of like different positions

00:41:24   But overall I don't think it's worth it because like things get caught on the little u-shape thing

00:41:28   You're trying to slide a piece of toast out if you have four slices in there

00:41:31   So clever idea but in the end I would say ditched

00:41:34   This does have a thing that tries to pull the tray out when you open and close the door

00:41:37   But because you can reposition the tray they can't make a single mechanism to do that

00:41:42   They have to put kind of like a metal hook that catches the the tray in both positions

00:41:47   So if the thing is really high or really low it will catch a different areas

00:41:50   Like it's a difficult problem to solve I understand if you want to make a movable tray

00:41:53   How do you connect something to it so it comes out but again like it technically kind of works

00:41:58   But if you ever have to you move the tray manually when you close the door again

00:42:02   You let the little hook has to reengage and it bumps the tray up

00:42:05   Lots of weird compromises this machine. It's about a minute slower than my toaster to toast a piece of bread

00:42:10   but in all other ways it is very comparable to my toaster just a

00:42:15   Bit dumber and a bit clunkier but with better knob feel so that that was kind of long

00:42:20   I'm sorry

00:42:20   But this was actually a very interesting toaster to better knob feel but worse overall knobs because of it the difficulty and detecting yes

00:42:27   Yes, worse worse overall knob right totally because you can't tell where they're pointing

00:42:31   But it feels good to turn them so in summary. This is better or worse than the Breville

00:42:37   Oh, it's worse definitely

00:42:38   I mean the Breville has like digital timers and like you know the it's just way better to

00:42:43   Adjustments for a number of slices and and auto adjust the time based on the temperature inside the toaster the other Breville is a better

00:42:50   toaster

00:42:51   Functionally this just has some interesting aspects, and it is very similar to the Breville in terms of size

00:42:56   and even appearance

00:42:58   Do you think this is a good value for 80 bucks? It sounds like you're saying yes

00:43:01   Yeah, I mean it's a little slow like a minute slower to toast

00:43:05   That's that's in the borderline of like I feel like I feel like I would still probably take the black and Decker three knob over

00:43:11   This because at least that toast that's my big hang up. It's my personal thing

00:43:14   I feel I don't want to waste that long for toast if it's into the four minute range for a piece of toast

00:43:17   No, like I you know, I I would still probably take the smaller more conventional also three knob by the way black and Decker

00:43:25   Over this thing. It's just kind of a dead ringer for the Breville, but like I can see where that extra

00:43:31   You know hundred whatever dollars went for mine

00:43:34   Thank you very much to Cards Against Humanity for sponsoring our show once again

00:43:39   All right, we got some pretty good feedback from Kitty John. Do you want to talk about this?

00:43:44   yeah, this was on the topic of

00:43:47   Watches replacing phones. I think we have another piece of feedback about this as well and her idea was

00:43:55   A lot of the features that the phone has, not the phone has, the watch has that don't

00:44:00   necessarily seem to be watch related, specifically all the little things about sending little

00:44:08   pictures to people and the 3D emoji and all the different fitness app type things.

00:44:14   Obviously you need to have an accelerometer in there or whatever, but the phone has an

00:44:16   accelerometer.

00:44:17   The phone has a screen.

00:44:18   The phone has all these things.

00:44:19   Why are they on the watch now?

00:44:20   In that aspect, this is true of a lot of Apple products.

00:44:23   the new glory product is seems to get a lot of the cool features first and then they trickle

00:44:29   down.

00:44:30   This happened a long time with like, hey, iOS got some cool feature and then eventually

00:44:33   it came to the Mac and then it reversed the direction a few times there.

00:44:38   I don't know if those things will ever come to the phone.

00:44:40   They're right that there's nothing stopping them from being on the phone, including all

00:44:43   the fitness tracking stuff, because hey, the phone's got an accelerometer and everything

00:44:45   too.

00:44:46   You can't do obviously the blood pressure or the pulse stuff, but everything else could

00:44:50   happen on the phone.

00:44:51   be a shame if all the advancement of those features happens on the watch instead of the phone,

00:44:56   but I would kind of understand it. And the second one is like things like watch faces,

00:45:01   with the complications on them and everything. The iOS home screen, as a bazillion people have

00:45:06   pointed out many many times, including many Android fans, the iOS home screen could be a

00:45:11   lot cooler if it supported essentially complications, otherwise known as widgets, or you know,

00:45:16   any kind of customization so you could make your lock screen or your home screen more customizable

00:45:21   than you can now. Apple has been moving slightly in that direction with the, you know, the

00:45:25   notification center and the ability to put widgets in there and stuff, but in the end,

00:45:29   the home screen, you know, springboard is still just a big grid of icons with some clumsy

00:45:34   foldering thrown in. And I think I would, you know, if I could have complications, you

00:45:40   know, in scare quotes on the iOS home screen, I think that would be a plus. But again, we'll

00:45:45   see if that ever comes, instead of back to the Mac, back to the iPhone in this case.

00:45:50   (laughing)

00:45:51   I mean, and part of the reason why I think we don't have,

00:45:54   you know, we have complications on the watch case,

00:45:55   but you don't have complications on your lock screen

00:45:57   on your phone, I think part of the reason why

00:46:00   is just inertia.

00:46:01   You know, like first of all, you do have

00:46:03   the Today View widgets, which I personally don't use,

00:46:05   'cause I don't use Today View.

00:46:07   And I would definitely use lock screen complications

00:46:11   long before I'd use Today View stuff.

00:46:13   But keep in mind, so not only do they have

00:46:16   like an existing thing that kind of does that,

00:46:19   Because iOS has been around for so long

00:46:21   and is so powerful within the company,

00:46:24   even though it is not like the glory product

00:46:26   that the watch is right now,

00:46:28   there's inertia with managerial decisions there.

00:46:32   So somewhere in Apple, probably pretty high up,

00:46:35   there's some manager or VP holding tight to the idea

00:46:38   that there should not be widgets on an iPhone home screen,

00:46:40   as far as you know.

00:46:41   I mean, maybe iOS 9 changes this, who knows, but I doubt it.

00:46:44   So somewhere there's somebody who decided that

00:46:46   a long time ago and is sticking with that decision

00:46:49   is not letting that change yet.

00:46:50   And anything that's been around for a while

00:46:53   is gonna have these kind of people.

00:46:54   Like, there's been a lot of discussion this week

00:46:57   about the Mac App Store, because there was that app,

00:47:01   what was it called?

00:47:02   Reveal?

00:47:03   - Redacted. - Redacted, yeah.

00:47:05   That hit number one and made very little money

00:47:08   being number one.

00:47:08   And even though it's not quite number one,

00:47:10   it's not quite, anyway, doesn't matter.

00:47:12   Lot of discussion about the Mac App Store

00:47:14   and how much it sucks.

00:47:15   Personally, I think the Mac App Store situation,

00:47:18   it can be blamed on one major thing, and that's sandboxing.

00:47:22   You know, like the app review, the 30% cut,

00:47:26   lack of upgrade pricing, all those things hurt,

00:47:29   but none of them hurt as much as sandboxing did,

00:47:31   in my opinion.

00:47:33   I think sandboxing on the Mac has been a massive loss,

00:47:37   a massive net loss overall.

00:47:39   And it has cost the Mac App Store a lot of good apps

00:47:44   and a lot of developer goodwill.

00:47:46   But somewhere in Apple, there's clearly somebody

00:47:49   who has power who is keeping sandboxing there

00:47:52   and keeping sandboxing a requirement

00:47:53   to be in the Mac App Store.

00:47:55   And so, even though it looks like it might not

00:47:58   be the best idea for the product,

00:48:00   just the fact is when you have a big company,

00:48:02   you have people, you have power,

00:48:04   you have power struggles sometimes,

00:48:06   you have debates internally,

00:48:07   there's these other factors that keep things

00:48:09   the way they are, even if it's not ideal.

00:48:11   So in this case, the watch comes up

00:48:13   and the watch is kind of a clean slate.

00:48:14   I mean, you know, it seems to run some variant of iOS,

00:48:17   but it is basically a clean slate in like

00:48:20   the things it offers, the things it doesn't,

00:48:21   the UI it offers, where things are allowed,

00:48:23   where things aren't allowed.

00:48:25   And so it was able to do things that

00:48:27   we might not see for a while on iOS.

00:48:30   - Not the sidetrack on this thing,

00:48:32   but in the sandboxing, the guy at Apple who thinks

00:48:36   they should do sandboxing, I think I mostly agree with that.

00:48:39   Like, I think sandboxing is a positive direction

00:48:44   for the Mac to go, but the execution of that,

00:48:46   of the implementation of that policy

00:48:48   left a lot to be desired.

00:48:50   Having it become mandatory before it was full featured,

00:48:52   right, having there be so few ways for apps to,

00:48:57   to, you know, like to do things outside of sandboxing

00:49:02   on a case by case basis with exceptions.

00:49:04   Like it just, I feel like if sandbox,

00:49:07   even if sandboxing had sprung into existence

00:49:10   in its current state immediately,

00:49:13   like not that you can do that because you know it needs to be developed to some degree

00:49:16   but like the capabilities that were possible in sandboxing early on were just so limited

00:49:21   and so broken and so weird and so buggy to mandate people going to that was just that

00:49:26   was getting off on the wrong foot.

00:49:28   I think you do have to bring them back towards a sandboxing type environment but the way

00:49:32   to get there is like not the way they've done it so I feel like that is more of an execution

00:49:38   fumble than a theoretical fumble and I do think that there will always be things that

00:49:43   that are outside the sandbox and should be allowed to be on the Mac App Store with caveats,

00:49:48   with some kind of warning, blah, blah, blah, but like moving that direction is good. I

00:49:52   mean, maybe it's similar with all the other decisions that like you may agree with the

00:49:56   end state goal, but you don't agree that the way that Apple plans to get there is going

00:50:02   to be successful or has been beneficial.

00:50:04   Yeah, that's, I mean, that's basically how I feel. Like sandboxing in theory is a huge

00:50:09   security improvement. And I would like to be in the place where everything is sandboxed

00:50:14   properly, but I agree that the way it's been done has been pretty miserable. And the reality

00:50:22   is you have this system that is, you know, opt-in by a very small number of apps. It's

00:50:29   not preventing Mac malware. It's not preventing major apps from just going around the app

00:50:33   an app store and song themselves elsewhere.

00:50:36   There's still tons of software that is made

00:50:39   and run every day that's not sandboxed,

00:50:41   including a lot of Apple software,

00:50:43   because it's either not sandboxed or sandboxed technically,

00:50:46   but is given these blanket permissions

00:50:49   to do anything it wants,

00:50:50   and so it's kind of not really sandboxed.

00:50:53   So in theory, it's a great idea

00:50:56   if everything on the system can be properly sandboxed.

00:50:59   In practice, how do we get there?

00:51:01   What they've done so far has been miserable the best thing

00:51:04   For sandboxing like the best use to sandboxing and Apple is doing this as well as for Apple to sandbox its stuff

00:51:10   And it has been it's been sandboxing tons of its demon processes parts of the OS like

00:51:15   You know sandboxing has to exist Apple should be the primary user of it. They should be applying it

00:51:21   Pretty strictly to all parts of the OS that they possibly can to have them have the least privileges at least access so and so

00:51:27   And during that process, applying it to their GUI apps,

00:51:30   applying it to, you know,

00:51:31   they should be dogfooding this like crazy.

00:51:33   They should be ringing it out, figuring out everything.

00:51:36   And then offering it to developers as,

00:51:38   this is a way for you to write your app

00:51:41   in a way that you don't have to worry about some bug

00:51:42   hosing the entire person's computer.

00:51:45   Like sell it as a benefit, not as like,

00:51:47   you have to do this because we say so.

00:51:49   And if your app doesn't work because of it, oh well,

00:51:51   you get an exception that's on a ticking time bomb

00:51:53   that's gonna run out in about a year.

00:51:55   So either stop selling your app or make a new app.

00:51:58   Like it was just done so badly.

00:51:59   And I feel like the sandboxing technology

00:52:02   had to be developed, Apple should be using it.

00:52:04   All app developers can use it, should be using it,

00:52:06   but it should not be,

00:52:07   it should not have been warping the Mac app store

00:52:09   in the way that it did, pushing out good apps

00:52:11   entirely out of the store, making people discouraged

00:52:14   to not even want to develop a Mac app.

00:52:15   Because I know because they're like,

00:52:17   "Well, it doesn't even matter.

00:52:18   My idea won't even work with sandboxing anyway,

00:52:19   so why do I even bother?"

00:52:21   It's just been not great.

00:52:24   Yeah, it seems to me that a lot of times, Apple is "do as I say, not as I do."

00:52:32   And I think sandboxing is a great example of that.

00:52:34   And it's unfortunate because I think a lot of the pain that developers feel, Apple either

00:52:41   feels it and says, "Oh, we'll just not deal with that."

00:52:44   You know, "Oh, this sandboxing, we can't do what we want with sandboxing.

00:52:47   Well, screw it, we're Apple, we don't need to bother."

00:52:49   Or, you know, there are some times, like with CloudKit, where it's embraced.

00:52:56   It's CloudKit that I'm thinking of, right?

00:52:58   That photos runs on?

00:52:59   Yeah, okay.

00:53:00   So CloudKit gets embraced, and from everything I've heard, CloudKit is actually really solid

00:53:04   because Apple dogfooded it.

00:53:05   So it's unfortunate to me that more of that doesn't happen.

00:53:09   Or maybe if it is happening, that nobody knows it, because we're left to assume it's not

00:53:15   happening, and blame that as one of the big issues with, say, sandboxing. But maybe it

00:53:21   is happening, we're just not aware of it.

00:53:23   - I don't know, I mean, to me, like, the Mac App Store as a whole, to me, and I don't,

00:53:29   I've never had an app for sale in the Mac App Store, so I haven't seen that side of

00:53:33   it, but just from reading what our friends say who are in it, and from using it as a

00:53:38   user, it just, it seems like the Mac App Store is like Apple at its worst. Like, all of Apple's

00:53:44   like the worst things they do, they do most of those things

00:53:48   in the Mac App Store, and also there's very little upside.

00:53:51   So like in the iOS App Store, you have to put up with 30%,

00:53:55   you have to put up with all these rules and restrictions,

00:53:57   you have to do app review, but the upside is

00:54:00   you get access to this massive, massive customer base

00:54:03   that is just incredibly high in volume

00:54:06   and there's tons of money floating around

00:54:08   and it's fairly easy, well not fairly easy,

00:54:11   it's possible for many people to make a good living there.

00:54:14   The Mac App Store has all of the same downsides

00:54:18   as the iOS App Store, plus it has a way smaller

00:54:22   install base than iOS.

00:54:25   Even among people who use Macs,

00:54:27   a smaller percentage of them use the Mac App Store.

00:54:31   Also, the Mac App Store app is, I think,

00:54:34   one of the worst apps that ships with OS X.

00:54:37   I mean, it's just a terrible app.

00:54:38   It's buggy, it is confusing to navigate

00:54:41   even when it works properly,

00:54:43   It is visually really wacky and inconsistent

00:54:46   and dated looking.

00:54:48   I mean, there are so, it's just a terrible app.

00:54:50   - The mental model of it always blows my mind

00:54:52   because like how many people know

00:54:53   that if you click the update button

00:54:55   and immediately quit the app,

00:54:56   that the upstate still continues in the background?

00:54:58   Like who would guess that based on the model

00:55:00   of any app they've ever used?

00:55:01   Like, 'cause it's so integrated into the system

00:55:03   with the software update D

00:55:04   or whatever the hell's running in the background.

00:55:06   Like the fact that it could be downloading updates

00:55:08   when the, like, it just totally breaks the model

00:55:10   of an app that most people are used to.

00:55:12   on the Mac, so it's super confusing.

00:55:15   - Yeah, I mean, so the Mac App Store,

00:55:17   like it has all the downsides of the iOS App Store,

00:55:21   plus a number of additional downsides,

00:55:24   and very little of the same upside.

00:55:26   And so it's no wonder that no one's in it,

00:55:29   and there's no activity there.

00:55:31   - The biggest downside is, sadly,

00:55:33   that, sadly for everybody involved,

00:55:35   that there are alternatives to it.

00:55:37   Like, for all the things that developers hate

00:55:40   about the iOS App Store, about the 30%,

00:55:42   about not having your own customers, about not even be able to respond to reviews in

00:55:45   the app, like just all those terrible things.

00:55:47   On the Mac people are like, "Oh, well we don't have to deal with that, we'll just sell it

00:55:51   ourselves."

00:55:52   Right?

00:55:53   We're already a big company, we already know how to sell things, we don't have to sell

00:55:54   in the Mac App Store, we have the alternative, right?

00:55:56   And so that means that they get all the benefits of being able to talk directly to their customers,

00:56:02   be able to sell updates, like all that stuff, but they also get all the downsides that Apple

00:56:06   is trying to help them to avoid.

00:56:08   Like essentially, if there had been only one place where you could get software ready for

00:56:11   your Mac, and I'm not recommending this because I am an old cranky man who likes things the

00:56:15   old way. But anyway, if that had been the case, the Mac App Store, ironically, would

00:56:19   actually be much better, because people would be forced to get into it, that would probably

00:56:24   force Apple to deal with some of its rules, you know, like...

00:56:28   Well, that hasn't happened on iOS. It has, though, because like, I mean, think

00:56:31   about the, oh, no interpreters. Okay, well, I guess games can have interpreters because

00:56:34   they all use scripting language. That's a perfect example of, let's make a bunch of

00:56:39   really strict rules and then let's have unforeseen consequences and what EA

00:56:44   says look you got to let us run Lua scripts that's how our whole games work

00:56:47   EA is big enough for them to go all right all right you can't run

00:56:50   interpreter unless your game running a blah blah blah blah blah and like every

00:56:54   other place where something has been restricted in the iOS App Store if a big

00:56:58   enough or enough important companies you know if it's if it's stopping them from

00:57:02   selling in there or if they if they can't get their applications I'm like

00:57:06   just think of what the Mac App Store would be like if that was the only way

00:57:08   Adobe could get Photoshop onto the Mac. It would have to be very different.

00:57:12   Sandboxing could not exist. What is Apple gonna say? We're not interested in

00:57:16   Photoshop for the Mac anymore, sorry. You know, something would have to give. This

00:57:21   is all just a fantasy hypothetical scenario, not something I recommend you.

00:57:24   It could never actually happen for the Mac being the way it is. General purpose

00:57:27   computer is not a closed system like iOS blah blah blah blah. I understand all this.

00:57:30   I'm just saying like, due to that reality, the Mac App Store is even worse. It's

00:57:37   even further handicapped by the existence of a better, readily available alternative

00:57:43   that Mac developers are already experienced with.

00:57:45   All right, our last piece of follow-up is from Sarah, and she had some very interesting

00:57:50   points with regard to the watch, which, John, you alluded to earlier. Do you want to tell

00:57:55   us about these?

00:57:56   Yeah, this was about Marco talking about, again, the watch replacing the phone. And

00:58:03   And I said that I hadn't heard anyone saying that, and Marko said it, other than the people

00:58:07   looking at his watch and saying, "Oh, that's the new thing, that's going to replace the

00:58:09   phone now, right?"

00:58:10   Which is really just, you know, a sort of excitement about a new thing and not a particular

00:58:14   plan to do so.

00:58:16   Here's an actual plan to do so.

00:58:17   She says, "As soon as the watch has a cellular radio, I'll be ditching my phone and going

00:58:21   with a watch plus iPad setup."

00:58:24   And the reasons for this are things that hadn't occurred to me, because I don't have these

00:58:27   problems and the problems are women's clothing don't have as many pockets.

00:58:32   you don't always have a place to your phone and the alternative of putting in a bag is

00:58:35   a pain she refers in his email to the tyranny of the handbag is a real thing describes a phenomenon

00:58:42   that I admit I also have not seen says if you've ever been to a nightclub you'll have seen women

00:58:46   dancing awkwardly unable to move properly because they can't put their bag down anywhere or a group

00:58:50   of women dancing in a circle with their bags on the floor in the center so they can keep them safe

00:58:53   but the women can still dance uh this is not this is not a good situation and not something that

00:58:59   comes up. The idea is if you can have a watch on your wrist you don't have to worry about a

00:59:04   pocket to find to put the thing in. You don't worry about putting something valuable in your

00:59:07   purse and finding someplace safe to put your purse. And I've seen a lot of watch reviews and a lot of

00:59:13   it is about like the freedom of not having to fish your phone out of your pocket. I think there is a

00:59:19   potential freedom in not only not having to fish your phone out of your pocket but maybe not having

00:59:24   to have your phone to perform some limited set of tasks. Like if you just want to sort of be in

00:59:28   touch by phone and be able to send and receive text messages in some rudimentary way, maybe

00:59:34   the freedom that affords is worth the massive drop in functionality that you would be sacrificing

00:59:40   by not having a phone but only having a watch.

00:59:42   So there's one vote for a person who's willing to do that as soon as the watch becomes a

00:59:48   little bit more independent.

00:59:49   Yeah, that's a very good point that we didn't think of because we didn't ask, and this is

00:59:55   one of the things we're trying to improve.

00:59:58   - And you, if you went on a dog walk, right?

01:00:01   If you could go on a dog walk with Bluetooth headphones

01:00:03   and you know, I mean, you'd probably do this now

01:00:04   with just preloading stuff onto the watch or whatever,

01:00:06   but like, wouldn't it be nice?

01:00:08   You always say like, I don't necessarily take my wallet,

01:00:10   don't necessarily take my keys,

01:00:11   but I do always take my phone.

01:00:13   Would you feel like you could get into a place

01:00:15   where you're gonna go out for a dog walk

01:00:16   and just like not have, just have your watch on

01:00:19   and that's it?

01:00:19   Like if you're, what would they need to add to your watch

01:00:22   for you to do that and not have to feel

01:00:23   like it's an inconvenience?

01:00:25   - Well, it would need to be able to run overcast.

01:00:27   That's number one.

01:00:28   independently of the phone, so not with WatchKit,

01:00:30   an actual native Overcast app that would have my stuff

01:00:32   on it synced and everything.

01:00:33   So that's what I would need to do that.

01:00:35   The reality is I wouldn't face this problem personally.

01:00:37   - You always have a pocket for your phone,

01:00:39   but I'm saying like, what if you didn't have to take it?

01:00:42   It's like, oh, well Overcast is,

01:00:44   because Overcast is not an app

01:00:45   that you're constantly interacting with for the most part.

01:00:47   Like you're listening, right?

01:00:48   So it's the ideal case of like,

01:00:49   oh, well if that's all you need,

01:00:50   if you just need your podcast,

01:00:51   if you just need a native Overcast on your watch

01:00:53   and your watch has a cell radio or whatever,

01:00:56   If you got all that, you can snap your fingers and have it,

01:00:59   would you find yourself,

01:01:00   like you'd be taking your phone out of habit,

01:01:01   but then eventually you'd be like,

01:01:03   maybe you'd use it if you wanted to send

01:01:05   a long text to somebody,

01:01:06   you don't want to dictate it into your wrist, I don't know.

01:01:08   I don't have a watch, so I can't really make a call on this.

01:01:11   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:01:12   I mean, I see why a lot of other people would want this.

01:01:16   Like runners or joggers, they could use it

01:01:19   'cause the chances of a phone flying out of your pocket

01:01:23   if you try to keep it in jogging shorts is way higher

01:01:25   than if you keep it in the jeans and terrible cargo shorts

01:01:28   that I wear when I walk my dog.

01:01:30   - Yeah, they don't even need cell radio,

01:01:31   they just need a GPS.

01:01:32   - Yeah, and a lot of the exercise trackers

01:01:36   have GPS for that reason.

01:01:38   Apple Watch doesn't yet, but we'll see about that.

01:01:41   And that's why I can see the Apple Watch adding GPS

01:01:45   before I see it adding a cell radio, necessarily.

01:01:48   - Yeah, and it has lower power.

01:01:50   My wife has a big Garmin, a Garmin basically wristwatch,

01:01:53   it's the ugliest thing you've ever seen in your life,

01:01:55   but a big Garmin GPS wristwatch.

01:01:56   And she has an iPhone 5S, right?

01:01:58   But she doesn't like to run with the phone

01:01:59   'cause it's big, right?

01:02:01   So she puts the Garmin,

01:02:02   and why doesn't she just have a step tracker?

01:02:04   Like she wants to know exactly how far she ran

01:02:07   and maybe the route she took.

01:02:08   And step tracking is not as accurate as GPS

01:02:11   for measuring the thing.

01:02:12   So she wears the big bulky Garmin thing.

01:02:13   So she didn't even want to watch,

01:02:15   but maybe if, Apple Watch that is,

01:02:18   if the Apple Watch had GPS,

01:02:20   I think she could be compelled to buy one

01:02:22   or become more interested.

01:02:23   - Well, and I'll tell you what,

01:02:24   I don't think the Apple Watch can do distance accurately

01:02:28   without the phone present, 'cause I don't know how it would.

01:02:31   - Well, the documentation that I've read,

01:02:32   although I haven't tried this,

01:02:34   is that if you keep the phone with you,

01:02:37   it'll obviously use the phone's GPS

01:02:40   to kind of cross-reference and corroborate what it thinks,

01:02:42   but it knows how tall you are,

01:02:44   it knows how many steps you're taking,

01:02:46   and so it makes a best-guestimate

01:02:48   based on what it thinks your stride is

01:02:50   and how many steps you've taken

01:02:51   to guess how far you've run. And I think that it will kind of train itself based on the

01:03:00   times that you actually have your phone with you and do the same things.

01:03:03   Yeah, I think I saw Ren tweet something like showing she brought a GPS with her and also

01:03:08   the, uh, also the Apple watch after she had calibrated and show they were only off by

01:03:11   like, you know, a fraction of a mile or something to try to show that it was, you would think

01:03:16   that step tracking could always, would always be off by some amount, but that actually it

01:03:19   get pretty close. But it's not just distance. The people who want GPSs, they want to see

01:03:23   their route. They want to see a map. I ran through the park. I did this. Here's where

01:03:27   I was going slow. Here's where I was going fast. That's what you want. So you need two-dimensional

01:03:31   positioning at the very least.

01:03:33   And for whatever it's worth, the two-dimensional positioning and distance tracking when I have

01:03:37   the phone with me on my dog walks is great. I verified there's a site called GMAP pedometer

01:03:44   that lets you just like it's an overlay on Google Maps and you can just like

01:03:49   click out the route you took and it'll tell you how long that was. I love

01:03:52   tracking this now like so I've never been into activity before. I've never

01:03:57   tracked anything about my activity. I've never cared about fitness. I've never

01:04:01   regularly done any fitness except I do walk my dog most days and we have a very

01:04:06   hilly town and we walk between three quarters of a mile and two and a half

01:04:11   miles depending on weather and ability and everything. So I've now actually been really

01:04:17   enjoying tracking that and seeing, oh, I have, I've only gone 1.2 miles, maybe I should,

01:04:23   you know, take this turn here and go up this block and add and I keep finding myself like

01:04:28   adding to the route just to help me, you know, finish up my circles on the watch or to beat

01:04:34   yesterday's record or whatever. It's really, you know, this gamification stuff of fitness,

01:04:40   I know that it might not work forever.

01:04:42   This stuff tends to work for a week

01:04:43   and then you give up on it.

01:04:44   - You don't have the antibodies.

01:04:46   That's what's happening here.

01:04:47   You've been infected by fitness gamification

01:04:50   and you have not built up an immunity to it

01:04:52   from having had 17 different Fitwits

01:04:54   go through the wash or whatever else.

01:04:55   So this is your first experience with this

01:04:57   and it does have hooks.

01:05:00   It has hooks.

01:05:02   - I'm under no impression that this will last forever.

01:05:05   I hope it does, but I know myself and how lazy I am

01:05:08   and how much I hate fitness, so this will probably wear off,

01:05:12   but right now, just wanting to finish those circles

01:05:16   has gotten me to move more

01:05:18   and to complete my goals every day.

01:05:21   On my watch face, I have only a couple complications,

01:05:27   and one of them is the activity rings.

01:05:30   Whenever I look at the watch, I'm seeing that.

01:05:33   So it's not like this thing I have to remember to check,

01:05:35   like a Fitbit or even a pedometer app,

01:05:37   with the David Smith speedometer app.

01:05:39   I have to remember to check those.

01:05:41   This, I don't even have to remember to check.

01:05:43   It's annoying me on the watch face every day

01:05:46   until it's complete.

01:05:48   And so that, it actually does work.

01:05:50   Before the watch came out, I was concerned

01:05:54   about the big sensor bulge on the bottom of it

01:05:56   for the fitness sensors.

01:05:57   And I made a couple remarks to friends saying,

01:05:59   "You know, if they made a version

01:06:01   "that didn't have that sensor bulge

01:06:03   "and lacked all the fitness features,

01:06:05   "I'd rather have that version

01:06:06   "because it would be thinner.

01:06:07   It might be more comfortable than not having that bulge there.

01:06:10   It might be lighter, blah, blah, blah.

01:06:12   Yeah, turns out I use those features and I love those features.

01:06:16   So I'm really glad there is no option not to have them because I would have picked that

01:06:20   option and I would have missed all this and missed out on the health benefits and stuff

01:06:23   thereof.

01:06:24   So, yeah, I'm very happy with this.

01:06:27   Real time follow up on my wife wanting an Apple Watch.

01:06:29   She emphasizes that the main reason why she doesn't want the watch is because she can't

01:06:33   wear it at work for security reasons.

01:06:36   So I should have I should have thought of that why it doesn't have a camera or anything has a microphone

01:06:41   I think she can't have anything with Bluetooth or something what that's so peculiar

01:06:45   There's lots of she has lots of security restriction where she works, but anyway yeah

01:06:49   Otherwise I assume she would get it just to try it out. Just to see what it's like

01:06:53   Yeah, I would I'd like to echo everything that Marco said and we're gonna well

01:06:58   I guess rather than talk about in a minute. We'll just talk about it right now. I did get an Apple watch I

01:07:04   Ended up I think I had already talked about how I had ordered one on launch day at about 7 10 after 7 in the morning

01:07:10   on Eastern Time

01:07:12   What ended up happening was a listener of this show Natan gesher was nice enough to offer me a spare watch that he had had

01:07:18   He became upon the spare watch because he had ordered to the one that I always wanted which is the 42 millimeter space black

01:07:24   Sport space gray, excuse me sport

01:07:26   He ordered one of those and then ordered a different one. I believe it was the 42 millimeter white sport and

01:07:33   decided that, oh, he actually liked the white sport or whatever it was, I'm pretty sure that's right though,

01:07:39   and he was kind enough to offer to sell me the extra 42 millimeter space gray sport that he had.

01:07:47   And so that's what I did. It was extremely gracious of him. He didn't need to do that. He could have

01:07:52   absolutely raked me over the coals in terms of cost. So I am forever indebted to Natan. But anyways,

01:07:58   I got my Apple watch and I really like it and

01:08:01   Hopefully by the time this airs I will have put up my review of the Apple watch on my blog

01:08:07   And so hopefully you will see a link in the show notes

01:08:09   If you don't then yell at me to publish it

01:08:11   but either way I completely agree of Marco with everything you said that having the Rings as a complication which I do and

01:08:18   Seeing the nudge to stand up in seeing oh god

01:08:22   I really need to just go for like a 10-minute power walk around the neighborhood that

01:08:27   Absolutely has gotten me moving more than I did before and yes

01:08:30   Maybe in a month or even in a week that'll all go away, and I'll just find this to be

01:08:35   Silly, but today. I love it, and it's absolutely causing me to move more

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01:11:13   - Yes, please resist the urge to write your own internet.

01:11:16   - Please, for everyone involved.

01:11:18   It never works out.

01:11:19   - Nope, amen to that.

01:11:21   All right, so Facebook came out with instant articles.

01:11:25   - The gist of it is that Facebook has now launched

01:11:28   this platform system, whatever you wanna call it,

01:11:32   for publishers like the New York Times and Buzzfeed

01:11:35   and TechCrunch, like for major publishers.

01:11:38   I don't know, I think it works with any webpage,

01:11:40   but we'll see, anyway.

01:11:42   They've launched this thing where publishers

01:11:43   can now have articles that pop up and can be read

01:11:48   completely within the Facebook apps and the Facebook site.

01:11:52   I think the site, at least the apps.

01:11:53   The apps are what matters most anyway for mobile stuff.

01:11:56   And so the idea here is interesting.

01:11:59   So, you know, there's, so publishers,

01:12:01   so the idea is they don't want you going

01:12:04   to the publisher's websites to read them

01:12:06   or popping up a web view in the app,

01:12:10   like on the newyorktimes.com or whatever.

01:12:12   want the article to display directly within the Facebook app, natively in the interface,

01:12:17   have all the images and stuff loaded up there and be able to do dynamic, cool animated stuff

01:12:22   and everything else. I have a pretty cynical view of this, but I think it's inevitable.

01:12:29   Jon, what do you think?

01:12:30   >> Jon Streeter The first part of what I was interested in

01:12:32   was the instant part, because just technologically, like, you know, this is a native app, you

01:12:37   know, as Gruber said, it looks like it's by the same people who did the paper app. I saw

01:12:40   tweeted by Mike Mattes, that's how I find out about it, so I assume he's involved.

01:12:44   It's very slick looking.

01:12:45   The pitch to the user is you're going to launch Facebook anyway.

01:12:52   You're going to scroll through your Facebook feed, right?

01:12:55   That's something you're going to do anyway.

01:12:57   When you see something interesting in your Facebook feed, like someone posted an article

01:13:01   like "Oh, I saw this girl, you might want to check it out too, or have some commentary."

01:13:05   When you tap on that, whether it's like a movie review or something for you to be outraged

01:13:09   about and then yell about on Facebook or whatever it is, they want you to be able to tap on

01:13:14   that thing and not have to wait for a web page to load.

01:13:17   They want you to tap and immediately be reading the article, right?

01:13:20   And of course all the demos are of, you know, articles from National Geographic or something

01:13:23   with a beautiful picture in it or whatever.

01:13:26   But as I think as Gruber emphasized, like, unlike Marco's traditional criticism of paper,

01:13:31   which is that the app looks great if all your friends are beautiful people who are always

01:13:34   on vacation in California, which we should have a ding for that too.

01:13:39   The instant thing is like, okay, well, this is not articles that your friends made.

01:13:44   These are articles in, you know, the New York Times or, you know, the Huffington Post or

01:13:48   whatever.

01:13:49   Like, these are professionally produced things, you know, and the chances of them looking

01:13:53   nice and enticing your timeline is really high.

01:13:56   But they want to make it so that when you're scrolling through your timeline that you can

01:13:58   consume those as easily as you can read a comment from somebody.

01:14:02   They just want you to tap on it, and it's instantly there.

01:14:05   And that is a, if that works as advertised, that's a great end user benefit because people

01:14:12   do scroll through the timelines and people do want to occasionally read things.

01:14:15   And I know that I often feel I would like to read that, but I don't want to wait for

01:14:19   the thing to load, which sounds so stupid.

01:14:20   It's like you can't wait two seconds for something to load.

01:14:22   Like you're on wifi, you're on iPhone six.

01:14:23   It's not going to take an age to load, but sometimes you're just like, just the idea

01:14:27   of the screen blanking, going through a spinner and having to hit the back button, blah, blah,

01:14:30   like just waiting for that.

01:14:31   I don't know.

01:14:32   Maybe we're all spoiled, but you've seen.

01:14:35   I would use the analogy of like the studies that I think Google or Yahoo did or whatever

01:14:39   of like, what does an extra 200 milliseconds of response time on a server do to the purchase

01:14:44   rates of items in a store?

01:14:46   And it's like tremendous effects of a tiny speed change of page loading.

01:14:53   You would think like, does shaving 200 milliseconds off of the product page make a difference

01:14:59   in sales?

01:15:00   And the answer is like, yes, a tremendous difference.

01:15:03   There's a huge cliff after which people just aren't interested and lose, you know

01:15:06   Like and so that effect I think is real for people as they say

01:15:09   Marco can add a filter that makes my voice sound like his here engaging with content as in reading the stuff

01:15:16   Reading the stuff that's in the time like someone posted link to an article. Are you gonna actually read that article?

01:15:20   You're just gonna scroll right past it if it loads quote unquote instantly

01:15:23   Then you won't and the reason I think this is an interesting reframing is because as we all know

01:15:29   It can't actually like there's nothing instant. All it's doing is pre-loading it right? That's all you know. It's just

01:15:34   Spending a different time doing it rather than waiting and you know

01:15:38   Tons of browsers do is Chrome

01:15:40   I think was the first one to really aggressively do it like prefetching all the pages linked from a page

01:15:44   Google prefetches the first search results so in Chrome, so you know like

01:15:48   We're going to load it before you tap it so that by the time you do tap it. It is loaded

01:15:52   It's also it's also presumably loading less stuff like you know it's probably also

01:15:57   not loading the million different JavaScript trackers.

01:16:00   It'll load some of them because it is compatible

01:16:02   with publisher's tracking system, the publisher's ad systems.

01:16:06   So it will be loading some of that stuff,

01:16:08   but I think I would bet, and it's not loading

01:16:11   giant style sheets, giant JavaScript includes

01:16:14   for the site theme and the header and everything.

01:16:16   - You don't think it is?

01:16:18   - I'm betting that it's only loading the article

01:16:22   plus tracking stuff and ad stuff.

01:16:24   Not necessarily the tremendous sidebars,

01:16:26   all the related content, I mean, if you look at,

01:16:28   if you look at a typical article page for a major site,

01:16:31   there's so much other crap on that page,

01:16:34   and so many includes for style and JavaScript and stuff,

01:16:38   like there's so much stuff.

01:16:40   A lot of that's still gonna be there in the Facebook version

01:16:42   'cause they're gonna want their tracking

01:16:43   and they're gonna want their money,

01:16:44   and Facebook supports those things.

01:16:45   But I bet it's gonna be a lot less

01:16:48   just by not having like the headers, the footers,

01:16:49   the sidebars, all that crap that's always loaded.

01:16:52   - I was just thinking they would want it to be

01:16:53   more time for that filter again, a richer experience,

01:16:56   which is code for gonna take a year to download

01:16:58   'cause it's gonna have a lot of stuff in it.

01:16:59   But it could be better.

01:17:01   It's conceivable that it could be a lighter weight

01:17:03   due to the shared resources

01:17:04   among all of these instant articles.

01:17:06   But basically it's time-shifting.

01:17:09   It's clever pre-caching of things

01:17:11   that we will fetch it for you

01:17:14   so that when you tap it, it is there,

01:17:15   which is a great idea for a thing,

01:17:17   but trying for an application benefit,

01:17:19   but trying to sell that as instant,

01:17:21   I don't see how that can fulfill its promise

01:17:24   because it's gotta download this thing sometime.

01:17:27   And if your connection is slow and you launch the app

01:17:29   and you scroll through it, it's not good,

01:17:31   and you tap on the first thing you see.

01:17:33   And if it doesn't have, you know,

01:17:35   it's gonna have background downloading.

01:17:36   Like I'm sure they're gonna do everything on their power

01:17:38   on the iOS platform to try to get this stuff downloaded

01:17:40   before you tap on it.

01:17:41   But sometimes you're gonna win the race.

01:17:43   And when you do that, are you gonna be like,

01:17:44   hey, I thought this was supposed to be instant

01:17:45   because it won't, it won't be instant.

01:17:47   It's a reasonable selling point that like,

01:17:50   but like putting it right in the name

01:17:52   may end up backfiring them.

01:17:53   So that's one thing, just simple technology behind

01:17:57   what is this thing, what is the selling point

01:17:59   for users or whatever.

01:18:00   - Well, I mean, do you think the name is actually meant

01:18:04   to be like, this is why Facebook is doing it?

01:18:08   Or do you think the name is a red herring

01:18:10   to convince people that they should do this thing

01:18:12   that massively benefits Facebook?

01:18:14   - Well, that's what I'm getting at.

01:18:15   So like, this is the end user, this is the end user story.

01:18:17   Why would a user be interested in this feature?

01:18:20   Instant articles, you wanna read them,

01:18:21   you don't have to wait, good.

01:18:22   But it is the least interesting aspect of this feature

01:18:26   from a sort of strategic perspective,

01:18:27   because the strategic perspective is Facebook saying,

01:18:30   we want to be the place where people get your content.

01:18:35   Don't send them to your website.

01:18:36   In fact, why do you even bother having a website?

01:18:38   Why don't you do everything through us?

01:18:39   We have this great ad network.

01:18:40   We can do cool ad targeting.

01:18:42   You could advertise through us.

01:18:42   We'll let you keep 100% of the revenue

01:18:44   from all the people who go through blah, blah, blah.

01:18:46   It's totally great, guys.

01:18:47   Come right in.

01:18:48   You know, like, I hope all of the content providers

01:18:51   smart enough to not sort of fall into this trap because it's giving Facebook a tremendous

01:18:57   if this was super successful and it became one of those things like well you gotta have

01:19:00   a Facebook Instant Article you can't there's no way you can get any traffic without doing

01:19:03   that that spells bad news for everybody except for Facebook everybody consumers you know

01:19:09   websites everybody and so I really now that I want to say that I hope it doesn't succeed

01:19:15   but like I kind of I kind of do hope it doesn't succeed not because it's not a benefit to

01:19:20   the end user, but because I don't want Facebook to be the gateway for most of the things that

01:19:28   people read, because, ugh, no, I don't.

01:19:31   - I mean, unfortunately, I think that's the reality, you know? And that, you know, I think

01:19:38   we've been feeling for a while, and a lot of people, I don't think, are ready to see

01:19:42   or admit this yet, but the web is really dramatically losing relevance. Not the internet, but the

01:19:50   the web as viewed in web browsers,

01:19:54   that is so dramatically losing relevance

01:19:56   in the age of mobile and apps and native stuff now,

01:20:00   and social stuff.

01:20:01   The web is losing.

01:20:03   It's not going to die.

01:20:05   - I don't know if it's losing.

01:20:06   I feel like this goes in cycles.

01:20:09   Like you said, it's not gonna die.

01:20:12   You can't kill it because it is unkillable, right?

01:20:14   But it does go inside.

01:20:16   It's kind of the same things that people said

01:20:17   about giving Apple power by like,

01:20:19   you shouldn't have a website.

01:20:20   should just have an app, right? And that's the same exact situation. You wouldn't

01:20:24   want to give Apple that power at all. But the way that looks like it's shaken out

01:20:27   to me is that every website has an app, but it has not made the websites go away.

01:20:32   And this Facebook thing looks much more capable of making the websites become

01:20:37   like a relic. There's a New York Times app, but there's no way the New York

01:20:40   Times app is ever going to make the New York Times website go away. There's a New

01:20:44   York Times, if there was a New York Times instant article thing, because Facebook

01:20:47   is just so much bigger than Apple

01:20:48   and has already succeeded, has already gotten so far

01:20:52   in getting everybody to consume everything

01:20:53   through the Facebook feed that it's terrifying.

01:20:55   They are closer to being able to suck publications in

01:20:59   and make their websites irrelevant.

01:21:02   - Right, I mean, this is way bigger

01:21:04   than Google News ever was back in the day,

01:21:06   when that was a big deal and publishers

01:21:08   were trying to threaten to sue them

01:21:10   but then they didn't wanna be blocked by them or admitted

01:21:12   'cause that would be even more disastrous.

01:21:14   This is like that times 10.

01:21:16   I really do think that web browsing is really in trouble,

01:21:21   and as a result, publishers are in trouble.

01:21:24   I wrote an article with a terrible title about this

01:21:27   about a year ago or something.

01:21:29   I think it's very clear that all of this social usage,

01:21:34   all the time people are spending using apps

01:21:37   and using social networks on their phones and stuff,

01:21:40   some of that is additive when people are just waiting

01:21:43   in line at the bank or something

01:21:44   where they weren't doing these things before.

01:21:46   But a lot of that is also time that has been taken away

01:21:50   from browsing the web, reading publishers' sites,

01:21:53   reading RSS and stuff like that for the geeks.

01:21:56   This has actually been,

01:21:59   all this social activity is competing with that

01:22:03   and has taken a lot of it.

01:22:05   I worry a lot about the future of the web.

01:22:08   I really don't think this is a small trend

01:22:11   or a temporary thing or something that is guaranteed

01:22:14   to just have the pendulum swing back the other way eventually. I think this is a major shift

01:22:19   that people have voted with their time and with their activity and with their attention.

01:22:24   They have voted for centralized proprietary ecosystems focused on social and snackable

01:22:31   listicle traffic in these social networks, Facebook mostly, some Twitter, stuff like

01:22:37   that. People have voted. That's where they're going. That's what they want the Internet

01:22:41   to be. People on the whole don't care about the open web, they don't care about everyone

01:22:46   having their own site that they own and control and being able to browse things through open

01:22:50   standards, people don't care. A few geeks care, even we have moved so much of our activity

01:22:55   to Twitter and stuff, like this is a massive trend that I think it would be unwise to ignore.

01:23:02   And unfortunately, you know, just like when we moved from the previous systems that we

01:23:09   had to the web, there was a lot of good that came from that,

01:23:12   a lot of big numbers that came with that,

01:23:15   a lot of new abilities that came with that,

01:23:17   but not everything transitioned over.

01:23:19   Not everybody was a winner there.

01:23:22   And a lot of things just, well,

01:23:24   that thing that used to work now doesn't.

01:23:27   Or that role that you used to have,

01:23:29   now we don't need you anymore.

01:23:31   That is happening now with the move towards apps,

01:23:34   the move towards social stuff,

01:23:36   and with so much traffic to web publishers

01:23:39   now coming from mobile and social usage,

01:23:42   not coming from blog links and search engines

01:23:46   and people browsing in web browsers on their computers.

01:23:50   That shift is happening and has happened.

01:23:53   We are already very much into that shift.

01:23:56   - I characterized it as a series of swings

01:23:58   but not so much as a pendulum,

01:23:59   'cause like you said, one thing does supplant the other,

01:24:02   but almost in terms of that we're getting

01:24:06   a more balanced situation now and the sort of supremacy of the web was

01:24:10   actually unbalanced because what the web let you do originally was read stuff

01:24:15   like articles right and for a long time that since that was so dominant and it

01:24:21   was like that defined the internet was the web right and what the web let you

01:24:25   do is read stuff people were spending a lot more of their time reading stuff

01:24:30   even if you want to lump RSS into that. And now we've shifted because there's

01:24:37   ways to do things other than read stuff. You can text people, text messaging was

01:24:41   one of the first shifts. Now I'm not just reading stuff, I'm writing stuff, right?

01:24:44   You can play games, you can watch little movies, you can, you know, use native apps

01:24:50   to do things that are very different than reading a big page of stuff. And so

01:24:56   So I feel like this is an adjustment in terms of activity choices.

01:25:00   Like people are reading the web less because they're doing things more.

01:25:03   What are they doing on their phone?

01:25:04   They're not doing the equivalent of reading the web, they're doing something different.

01:25:07   And why couldn't they do that on the web?

01:25:08   Because the web took a long time to get that kind of interactivity and everything.

01:25:12   So I think maybe we're more imbalanced now.

01:25:14   The reason this instant article thing is scary is because it is asking people to do the one

01:25:21   thing that the web is best suited for, like reading stuff, publishing, a publishing platform,

01:25:28   anybody can make a website, you can start publishing stuff, the entire world can read

01:25:32   it, and what kind of stuff?

01:25:34   How about a bunch of text and pictures, right?

01:25:36   That is like the core competency of the text, reading things, of the web, reading things.

01:25:41   If Facebook can get that into there, it's not even an interactive thing, it's not a

01:25:45   social network, like the article's in a social network.

01:25:49   reading the article, right? If they can pull that away from the web, now you're really

01:25:54   starting to pull at the core of what the web does in a non-proprietary way. It's as if

01:26:01   someone tried to replace email with a system that was exactly like email but 100% proprietary.

01:26:06   And that so far hasn't worked, despite email being super terrible, way worse than the web

01:26:09   ever was in terms of no authentication and spam and all the other things that we hate

01:26:13   about email. The web has a leg up on that.

01:26:16   Well, has that not worked? How about iMessage?

01:26:19   But that's not email. Email is when you write a long form thing. Even text messaging hasn't

01:26:23   like, you would think, "Oh, I have a hundred ways I could write to somebody. I could send

01:26:26   them a Twitter DM, I could write to them in Slack, I could do this, I could do that,"

01:26:28   and yet email survives, despite it being terrible.

01:26:31   Facebook messages are pretty big.

01:26:33   I know, but perhaps the main thing keeping email alive is that you can't even sign up

01:26:38   for any service without an email. It is the linchpin of our entire system, right? What

01:26:42   are you going to put in the, you know what I mean? I feel like the web has that same

01:26:45   longevity, but it would be a huge mistake for anybody publishing on the web to give

01:26:49   Facebook too much power. And with web publications struggling to figure out their monetization

01:26:54   strategies and all this other stuff, they are vulnerable to being like, "Well, we've

01:27:00   got to do something, and Facebook has a great advertising platform and they have a hodgillion

01:27:04   users." And then you just wait a year and Facebook starts turning the screws and being

01:27:07   like, "Actually, we're not going to show your article to a lot of people unless you

01:27:10   pay us," which is their whole big thing.

01:27:13   That's the thing, I mean, this is why this is such a terrible situation. I mean, I think

01:27:18   because of the move towards everything being mobile, because so much traffic to publishers'

01:27:25   websites now has to come from social sources, I'm not sure publishers have much of a choice.

01:27:30   You know, it's just like when Google News, you know, when people threatened and made

01:27:35   them block them and then like begged to be let back in. There's all these like, you know,

01:27:38   where like one party has just tremendous power on the web

01:27:42   and publishers pretty much have to play ball with them

01:27:45   because they can't afford not to have that audience,

01:27:48   not to have that traffic.

01:27:49   Facebook is that platform today

01:27:52   and publishers depend so much on getting social traffic

01:27:57   and Facebook is so good at delivering that traffic sometimes

01:28:02   and only if you pay and being really cagey about it.

01:28:05   Like this is, of course that's their plan.

01:28:08   Of course their plan is to move even more activity

01:28:12   into Facebook.

01:28:13   It comes from not only a position of greed,

01:28:18   but also a position of just arrogance.

01:28:20   Like our app is better than your website.

01:28:23   You are incapable of making pages that load quickly

01:28:27   even though this can be solved by smart web design

01:28:29   and a good CDN.

01:28:30   - And a lot of times they're right though, unfortunately.

01:28:32   - Well that's, yeah, but not every time.

01:28:34   But anyway, this move is them just

01:28:38   "Hey, you know what? We are so powerful that you have to play ball with us. We're going

01:28:43   to offer this thing now, and our partners who use this, their stuff is going to rank

01:28:49   a lot higher than a random link to an arbitrary site now in the timelines." As you said, they're

01:28:54   going to start turning the screws, right? They are so good at that. That's what they

01:28:58   do.

01:28:59   You would think they would figure it out by now, like kind of have the music labels figured

01:29:01   out after the iTunes thing, like maybe don't give one company too much power, right?

01:29:05   Yeah, well, ask the music labels how well they're doing right now.

01:29:07   Well, but like I mean they eventually figured it out and now it's kind of like accepted wisdom in the in the digital publishing

01:29:13   You know digital media like music movies or whatever that it is a huge mistake

01:29:17   To put all your eggs in the basket of one technology company

01:29:20   Despite the fact that all the media companies have proven they can't do the technology themselves. They've learned I think just just received wisdom now

01:29:26   Even if you can't do any of this tech yourself, which you can't because you suck

01:29:30   Never give one company all your stuff. Never let Apple get too big never let Amazon get too big never let you know

01:29:36   like and they all know that right and maybe they know it too well and are being stubborn with things like TV where they could be

01:29:42   Making progress blah blah blah, but you would think in the web

01:29:45   They would also know that by now as well that like I mean, let's look at ebooks and Amazon like oh boy

01:29:50   That was it was a real big mistake to give Amazon that much power in the e-book industry

01:29:53   Right, and they tried to balance it with Apple and then you know that didn't quite work out the way they wanted it to right

01:29:59   So I'm hoping everybody in web publishing even though they're in the same dire

01:30:02   Situation of like we can't figure out how to monetize we can't reach our audience social is taking over blah blah

01:30:06   I hope that someone in the meeting raises their hand and says, "This is all good and

01:30:11   all, and I love these numbers and the projections and blah blah blah, but we really need to

01:30:15   hedge because if we put all our eggs in the Facebook basket, they will own us and it will

01:30:20   be bad."

01:30:21   - See, I think you're right, they should be saying that.

01:30:25   However, I don't think they have another choice.

01:30:27   And that's why Facebook can do this.

01:30:28   This is like, the internet is really, you know, we like to think that the internet is

01:30:32   this platform that enables all this openness and everything, and it does, and it can.

01:30:36   But it also enables massive consolidation of power and consolidation of attention and

01:30:43   usage into these proprietary lockdown systems.

01:30:45   We keep seeing it again and again with everything you use listed.

01:30:48   And that's only going to continue.

01:30:50   And it's very clear that when you have these centralized systems like Facebook, like Twitter,

01:30:55   like Amazon, you can offer benefits, like Google, you can offer benefits that get people

01:31:02   in in such massive numbers that you just get a,

01:31:05   like that private company gets a tremendous amount of power

01:31:08   and can basically dictate their terms

01:31:10   to the rest of the world then.

01:31:12   Everything, like we're saying this is really,

01:31:14   potentially really bad and they shouldn't give Facebook

01:31:16   all this power, but the fact is Facebook

01:31:17   already has this power and if someone's not gonna play ball

01:31:20   with Facebook, they're just gonna start losing

01:31:23   Facebook search traffic, or Facebook social traffic

01:31:25   and they're gonna be forced to play ball.

01:31:28   They're gonna, their hands are gonna be forced.

01:31:30   Well they've got the same game plan as the music labels after going too far in the Apple

01:31:34   direction.

01:31:37   Their best and their only hedge is unfortunately to try to spread a little bit of your content

01:31:42   to another proprietary centralized thing.

01:31:45   Like in other words Twitter with the cards and whatever.

01:31:47   Like can they play Twitter vs Facebook off of each other?

01:31:51   Facebook is just so massively bigger than that anyway but that's what they've got.

01:31:55   The option is let's also keep talking to Twitter about their thing and whatever new social

01:31:59   network thing, like let's also talk to them about like no exclusivity deals, try to hedge

01:32:05   your bets the best you can. So you know Amazon's music was nothing when iTunes was dominant,

01:32:10   but by being given tons of attention, by being given DRM free music before Apple was given

01:32:15   it by all the music labels and everything, it helped make Amazon into perhaps not the

01:32:20   competitor they all wished it was, but at least iTunes is now not the only game in town.

01:32:24   Of course Spotify and all the streaming services, right, even that, the streaming services,

01:32:29   I bet music labels want to spread things around with a different streaming service so they

01:32:32   wouldn't like one to be dominant.

01:32:33   It's just something that tends to happen.

01:32:36   Amazon is massively dominant in online commerce.

01:32:38   Walmart is massively dominant in the US in retail.

01:32:41   Facebook is massively dominant online in social.

01:32:44   It's a bummer.

01:32:45   - But there's something else here though which I think is worth pointing out.

01:32:49   There's a difference in the power balance between your examples that you just gave for

01:32:52   the most part and this which is like if a popular kind of product is constantly being

01:32:57   being searched for on Amazon and Amazon doesn't have it,

01:33:00   that makes Amazon look bad.

01:33:01   Amazon kinda needs that.

01:33:02   With the music label negotiations,

01:33:04   like there's only what, four music labels?

01:33:07   You know, if a big music store launches

01:33:09   and they don't have one of them, that's a big problem.

01:33:11   That's gonna result in lots of people looking for stuff,

01:33:14   not finding it, and that negatively affecting the chances

01:33:17   that they're gonna keep using that music service

01:33:18   or keep buying from that store

01:33:19   or even keep bothering to search there.

01:33:21   With Facebook and these publishers,

01:33:24   Facebook doesn't really need any of them, like at all.

01:33:26   Like this is purely for the publisher's benefit

01:33:30   to be in this system.

01:33:31   If the publishers, if any one publisher

01:33:34   or any group of publishers decides they're not gonna do it,

01:33:36   Facebook couldn't possibly care less.

01:33:38   They don't need them.

01:33:39   - Well they don't need them, but they want them.

01:33:40   They want their place to be the gateway to this.

01:33:42   They don't want, I mean, you know, share on Facebook.

01:33:45   Like you can go to a website and there's share buttons

01:33:46   underneath every article to share the article

01:33:48   on every possible social service,

01:33:50   but that's not the integration that Facebook wants.

01:33:53   They want you to go to Facebook to find the article,

01:33:55   not go to the website to find the article

01:33:56   and hit a share button to share with people on Facebook,

01:33:58   although they do want you to do that

01:33:59   because they want people to be, you know,

01:34:00   looking at things on Facebook.

01:34:02   But it's the inversion of like, you know,

01:34:04   website, what website?

01:34:05   We own you.

01:34:06   The only, you publish your content through our system

01:34:08   on our terms to the people we say you can reach, right?

01:34:11   And I guess the web, keeping the websites themselves

01:34:14   are a hedge on that, but I don't know.

01:34:17   Like, I don't know what the best move for them is

01:34:19   because they do need to reach people.

01:34:20   Like, all I can think about is how much it could be worse.

01:34:24   Like, imagine if Facebook owned YouTube.

01:34:26   we'd all be screwed. Like it's game over. And YouTube itself is pretty dominant, but

01:34:33   then you see Twitch and you're like, well maybe Twitch is keeping YouTube honest. Does

01:34:37   Google own Twitch now? I keep forgetting. Didn't Amazon buy them? I don't know. Anyway,

01:34:40   consolidation is evil. Well, everything old is new again, and so I suspect that before

01:34:47   too long we'll be seeing keywords on commercials, and we'll talk about that right after this

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01:38:31   All right, so Verizon bought AOL, which is weird.

01:38:38   Yeah.

01:38:39   What's that all about?

01:38:40   I don't know. Some people said it was about ad technology. I don't know.

01:38:44   That seems to make sense to me, because what else could it be about?

01:38:47   Dial up? I don't know.

01:38:49   I mean, they do have a bunch of popular websites, and some of the spin has been like,

01:38:53   "Oh, this is about content." I think what they have, like Huffington Post is TechCrunch there, too.

01:38:57   theirs too. Like they have a bunch of properties like everybody's like a holding company at

01:39:01   this point. But from everything I've read what the CEO did to make the company desirable

01:39:08   as an acquisition is focused on how like trying to make this company a compliment for the

01:39:15   things that other companies might need, you know, so they're advertising technology to

01:39:18   serve you know, whatever. Boy, you need this filter a lot. Serve rich ads, video ads to

01:39:23   to people targeted, you know, if someone is looking

01:39:27   for that ability and the ability to reach a large number

01:39:29   of people, that's what AOL has packaged themselves up into.

01:39:32   And I saw all the depressing numbers of like how low AOL

01:39:35   has fallen from, you know, the time when they were doing

01:39:37   the Time Warner merger for 380 billion or whatever.

01:39:40   Now they sold themselves for four.

01:39:43   Part of it is like the name AOL.

01:39:45   Like the company has always been increasingly more

01:39:47   than what we think of when we think of AOL.

01:39:50   But then I just think about all those people

01:39:51   still charging for dial-up and I just get angry.

01:39:54   Is the logo still lowercase, so it just looks like AOL?

01:39:56   Yeah, and I want to be clear.

01:39:59   Angry AOL, not because I think that people shouldn't have dial-up, but I'm angry at our

01:40:05   situation in this country.

01:40:07   If your best internet option within your budget is dial-up on AOL, we are failing as a country

01:40:14   to, you know, like, I feel like at this point, broadband, affordable broadband internet access

01:40:20   should be important enough that it should be subsidized, you know, maybe not subsidized,

01:40:26   but like, we should, whatever we have to do to make it affordable, as affordable as having

01:40:31   a telephone line is, that's what internet access should be. And if your only option

01:40:35   is literal dial-up over a modem to AOL, then things have gone horribly wrong.

01:40:40   Yeah, I'd say so. I don't know, Ben Thompson had a pretty good take on this that I skimmed

01:40:46   very quickly before we recorded, and it seems like it is about ad technology. I don't know,

01:40:53   it's just, AOL has a bunch of internet properties, like TechCrunch for example, and there was

01:41:00   a time where I really hated TechCrunch, but I actually have come back around and it helps

01:41:05   that our friend Matt Panzerino is there. But there's a lot of really good properties there,

01:41:10   And I'm gonna be fairly sad when Verizon inevitably forces editorial opinions on all of them.

01:41:17   Don't you think they'll sell them before they do that?

01:41:19   I would assume that if they're not interested in content, they'll sell those things off.

01:41:22   Maybe.

01:41:23   I don't know.

01:41:24   I mean, they probably do make money, though.

01:41:26   I don't know.

01:41:27   You know, I've never worked with a big publisher.

01:41:29   I have no idea how, you know, in theory, they all attempt to maintain editorial independence

01:41:36   from their corporate high-up owners.

01:41:38   In practice, I don't know how hard that is.

01:41:40   If I had to guess, I'm guessing that they can usually

01:41:45   do that most of the time, but maybe sometimes

01:41:48   it gets weird or hard, I don't know.

01:41:49   - I don't know if Verizon is like Roger Ailes,

01:41:51   I don't think they have a big ideological slant

01:41:55   that they're going to impose on the Huffington Post

01:41:56   and TechCrunch.

01:41:57   - Yeah, probably not.

01:41:59   - Notice I add the Verizon tracking cookie

01:42:00   to all the sites, you know?

01:42:02   Actually they already have that because it's already

01:42:03   on their network, anyway.

01:42:05   Verizon just wants your eyeballs and your monthly check,

01:42:10   Right, and so this is just furthering their goals.

01:42:13   Would it be, can we think of someone

01:42:15   who we would rather have had buy AOL?

01:42:18   Would we rather have AOL go bankrupt?

01:42:19   Like what are the alternative scenarios

01:42:22   for the future of AOL that we would like better

01:42:24   than Verizon buying them?

01:42:25   I mean like what I'm getting at is that it's not,

01:42:30   I didn't you know, sort of cringe

01:42:32   when I saw this announcement in the same way I did

01:42:34   when I saw like Facebook bought Instagram, right?

01:42:36   Like sometimes you see a consolidation,

01:42:38   like oh no right this one it's like yeah all right I mean like could be worse

01:42:43   right like Verizon could merge with Comcast like there are many more worse

01:42:47   doomsday scenarios than uh than Verizon buys AOL I mean Verizon could just agree

01:42:52   to just stop competing with Comcast and stop building out FiOS yeah they can

01:42:57   only do that with billions and billions of speaking of subsidies with billions

01:43:00   and billions of dollars from the government they need more billions now

01:43:03   - Nope, they can't do it anymore.

01:43:06   - Well, good talk.

01:43:06   I guess, is there much else to say on AOL Verizon?

01:43:10   - I don't know, basically what I had to say is that

01:43:13   of all the mergers that have taken place

01:43:15   between big companies, this one seems like,

01:43:18   all right, whatever.

01:43:19   - Yeah, is this, so, off the top of my head, I don't know.

01:43:23   The AOL Time Warner thing, between that and HP Compaq,

01:43:29   which was the worst merger in history?

01:43:33   AOL Time Warner.

01:43:34   - That was bigger than HP Compaq?

01:43:35   - Yeah, because HP Compaq, these were similar

01:43:39   and did similar things, and it's a consolidation

01:43:41   that made some sense, especially in a market

01:43:43   where Microsoft was grabbing ever larger values

01:43:46   of the PC market, and the hardware vendors

01:43:48   were being pushed harder and harder,

01:43:49   that there's gonna be consolidation among them,

01:43:51   and they both had kind of an enterprise angle.

01:43:53   Like, HP Compaq makes some sense, and it only looks bad

01:43:56   because the entire PC sector was contracting

01:43:58   as Microsoft sucked all the oxygen out of it.

01:44:00   AOL Time Warner was a fantasy of like,

01:44:02   the internet and Hollywood are together and we're going to have TV shows on it. It's just

01:44:07   a fantasy of some C-level executive's head, like billions of dollars and little birdies

01:44:12   and stars spinning around people's heads thinking this is going to be the new Juggernaut. And

01:44:17   it was just like, boy, you know, I just feel like that was a much bigger disaster.

01:44:22   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Cards Against Humanity, Igloo, and Squarespace,

01:44:29   and we will see you next week.

01:44:30   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

01:44:37   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:44:44   John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:44:48   'Cause it was accidental, oh it was accidental

01:44:54   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:44:59   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:45:08   So that's Kasey Liszt, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:45:13   E-N-T, Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C

01:45:18   U-S-A, Syracuse-a, it's accidental

01:45:23   They didn't mean to, accidental

01:45:28   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:45:31   - Didn't even get to talk about your audio engine.

01:45:35   - We can talk about that now,

01:45:36   but there's not that much to say.

01:45:37   I'm working on my streaming engine.

01:45:40   - What streaming engine is this?

01:45:41   What number?

01:45:42   What attempt number?

01:45:44   - I think four?

01:45:45   Every couple of days on Twitter,

01:45:48   somebody asks the Overcast account,

01:45:50   "When are you gonna add streaming?

01:45:52   "God, finally," you know, something like that.

01:45:54   And--

01:45:54   - They do have a point.

01:45:56   You're doing the voice for the finally thing,

01:45:57   but streaming was discussed on this very program

01:46:00   a fairly long time ago as an important

01:46:02   upcoming feature for Overcast.

01:46:04   - Yeah, my goal was to add it like last fall.

01:46:07   That hasn't happened yet.

01:46:08   And it's not because I haven't been working on it.

01:46:11   It's because I haven't gotten it to work yet.

01:46:14   I've been making progress, and I haven't,

01:46:16   you know, I haven't been working on only streaming

01:46:19   in Overcast for the last year or whatever.

01:46:21   Like I've been doing other things as well.

01:46:24   - Yeah, like walking your dog.

01:46:25   - Like walking my dog, yeah, well that's testing

01:46:27   overcast, no, I mean, you know, simple stuff like,

01:46:30   you know, like the entire rest of the app

01:46:33   that I've been working on, stuff like that.

01:46:35   I have tried to write a streaming engine for overcast

01:46:40   on a number of occasions, and I keep doing it badly.

01:46:45   The one I've been writing over the last two weeks

01:46:48   is significantly better, I've gotten significantly further

01:46:51   than I've gotten with any other attempt before.

01:46:54   I think I'll be able to do it,

01:46:56   I think the one I'm writing now is going to be the one.

01:47:01   So John Beals in the chat is asking,

01:47:03   "Is there an off-the-shelf streaming solution?"

01:47:05   I have looked at a couple of packages,

01:47:07   I have even tried to integrate some of them

01:47:09   that claim to offer this.

01:47:11   None of them have worked for me.

01:47:13   And some of them, they haven't worked for me

01:47:16   because they have just annoying shortcomings

01:47:20   that would be a problem in my app.

01:47:21   Things like, "Oh, this will support streaming of everything

01:47:25   except MP4 files.

01:47:27   That's a bit of a problem for podcasts,

01:47:29   since any AAC-encoded podcast is wrapped

01:47:31   in an MP4 container.

01:47:33   Or simple things like, no way to get ID3 information.

01:47:37   Well, that might be a problem for me in the future,

01:47:39   if I wanna parse that.

01:47:41   Or like, no ability to jump around in certain formats,

01:47:45   in certain cases.

01:47:46   Like, there's problems and limitations

01:47:48   with a lot of these other packages out there

01:47:49   that if you're writing an app where you are streaming

01:47:53   from a known set of sources that you know,

01:47:55   like if you control the source end,

01:47:57   and you can say, well, we are only going to serve

01:48:00   MP3 format streams, for instance.

01:48:02   And so you know what you're gonna be reading,

01:48:04   and you have control over that.

01:48:06   You have a lot more options then.

01:48:08   First of all, if you don't need smart speed,

01:48:10   you can just use AD player.

01:48:11   Like that's the basic thing.

01:48:13   Like for most people, you don't need to be working

01:48:16   at this level, because most applications,

01:48:20   A.D. player will work just fine for you.

01:48:23   The only reason I need to be at this level

01:48:25   is to get smart speed working.

01:48:27   Now, another option, the guy who makes RSS radio,

01:48:30   this is one of the only other apps

01:48:33   that has silent skipping as a feature.

01:48:36   I met him at NS Conference this year,

01:48:38   he's a really nice guy.

01:48:39   And I asked him, 'cause I know that he supports streaming

01:48:42   and he has silent skipping, and I asked him how he did it.

01:48:44   And he said he just doesn't have silent skipping

01:48:48   and effects when it's streaming.

01:48:50   And he just has two different paths in the code

01:48:53   where like if he's playing a video

01:48:56   or if he's playing an audio file off a stream,

01:48:59   he just uses AVPlayer, and then if he's not,

01:49:01   he uses his other audio engine where he can do effects.

01:49:05   And I could go down that route too.

01:49:08   I'm just choosing not to.

01:49:09   So I could've offered streaming at the very beginning

01:49:12   and just say, well, you can stream,

01:49:14   but then smart speed won't work if you stream.

01:49:18   I'm just choosing that I don't want that.

01:49:20   Like I don't want that to be my solution.

01:49:21   I want smart speed and voice boost

01:49:24   and any other effects I do in the future.

01:49:26   I want those all to be available

01:49:27   no matter what the source of the audio is.

01:49:29   Whether you're streaming it,

01:49:30   whether you're playing off a local file, et cetera.

01:49:34   Also with AVPlayer, you can't save the contents of a stream.

01:49:37   And I don't like that.

01:49:38   I think if you're gonna stream the data once,

01:49:41   you should be able to write that data to the local disk

01:49:44   and be able to play it offline afterwards if you want to.

01:49:47   So again, a limitation with the built-in stuff,

01:49:51   I could have these different modes where I say,

01:49:53   well, in this mode you have these limitations,

01:49:54   I'd rather not do that.

01:49:55   I'd rather just have one smart, solid system

01:49:59   that applies the same rules no matter where

01:50:01   the data comes from and gives you the same features

01:50:03   no matter where the data comes from.

01:50:05   So that's why I'm doing it the hard way,

01:50:07   and it's very hard, and that might not be the right answer.

01:50:10   This might be a terrible idea.

01:50:11   It might not be worth it,

01:50:14   but this is how I'm choosing to do it.

01:50:16   Don't you feel like once you kind of,

01:50:17   'cause really from reading your messages,

01:50:19   it seems like if any of these streaming frameworks

01:50:22   gave you a place to sort of insert your own code

01:50:25   into the stream where you could do your smart speed stuff,

01:50:27   you'd be all set, but none of them seem to give you

01:50:30   that low level access, 'cause they always just assume,

01:50:32   oh, you know, we'll take care of everything for you.

01:50:34   You just point us at the stream and we'll get the audio.

01:50:36   It's like, no, I need to be in there.

01:50:37   I need to look at the byte stream as it flows by

01:50:39   and to be able to do stuff with it, right?

01:50:41   So what you're essentially doing is a lot of work

01:50:44   that's already done for you in other frameworks

01:50:45   just so you can get that one access point.

01:50:47   Is this a correct characterization or not?

01:50:49   - Yeah, I mean, that's part of it.

01:50:52   And even just like, just the way the frameworks work,

01:50:55   the way they're structured,

01:50:57   how the code does certain things.

01:50:59   There's a couple of different low-level audio APIs

01:51:01   that you could be using.

01:51:02   I have to be working at basically the lowest level

01:51:06   to do what I do.

01:51:07   And so some of them don't work at a level that low,

01:51:10   some of them do,

01:51:11   but in a weird way that has limitations like this,

01:51:14   Some of them are basically just doing what I'm doing,

01:51:16   and I can just look at them and see some trick they do,

01:51:18   or some weird thing.

01:51:19   But for the most part,

01:51:21   now that I figured out the right way to do it, I think,

01:51:26   I think I'm making good progress, so I'll get there.

01:51:29   - This is gonna be your new Instapaper table view,

01:51:31   or grid view, where it's like, you do this thing,

01:51:33   you finally come out, you've got this thing,

01:51:34   finally I have a streaming engine, supports all my features,

01:51:36   two iOS releases later, they add hooks to all their APIs

01:51:40   so that you can do smart speed

01:51:41   in any one of their streaming things.

01:51:42   which is fine, like that's just,

01:51:43   you gotta do what you gotta do, but I don't know,

01:51:45   maybe this will never be important enough for them to do.

01:51:48   Like the collection views was eventually important enough

01:51:50   for them to do because tons of apps have views like that

01:51:53   of arbitrary grids of items, reordering, and blah, blah,

01:51:56   blah, but I'm not sure how many apps care

01:51:58   about the low-level audio access that you need,

01:52:00   so maybe you'll be safe in this one.

01:52:02   - Yeah, and like, you know,

01:52:04   AV player can support voice boost even.

01:52:07   Like you can do audio effects in AV player.

01:52:10   You just can't adjust the time scale of the audio.

01:52:12   So you can do any effects that take in an output,

01:52:15   the same number of samples.

01:52:16   You can do that in Navy Player, no problem.

01:52:19   Well, it's not easy, but you can do it.

01:52:21   But anything that adjusts the time scale dynamically,

01:52:24   you can't, and that is what Smart Speed needs to do.

01:52:27   One of the questions in the chat,

01:52:30   let me see, Coding Explorer asked this.

01:52:33   Why is streaming in such demand?

01:52:35   If you have Wi-Fi downloading an individual episode,

01:52:37   it takes like 10 seconds when it's slow.

01:52:39   That's a good point.

01:52:41   I've gotten along this far without having streaming.

01:52:44   One could argue, as I've asked myself many times

01:52:47   as I keep failing to do it properly,

01:52:48   one could ask, do I ever need streaming?

01:52:54   And the answer is, I think I can get away

01:52:56   without it forever if I need to.

01:52:58   But it would be better with it for three main reasons.

01:53:03   One very big use case that people always ask for

01:53:07   that I can't satisfy is a lot of people

01:53:09   prefer to run their clients in streaming only mode.

01:53:12   And the big advantage here is that you never have to

01:53:14   download a big chunk, so any, like an episode that

01:53:17   comes in that you don't actually end up listening to,

01:53:20   you didn't download that, so you didn't waste that data.

01:53:22   And also, it takes up no disk space, basically.

01:53:25   Like, you know, you'll have some space for like,

01:53:27   caching and artwork and the database, stuff like that,

01:53:29   but compared to when you're downloading entire episodes

01:53:32   of like 50 or 100 megs, that's very little space.

01:53:35   And people so often who have like these 16 gig iPhones

01:53:38   that for some reason Apple is still selling,

01:53:41   they can be very low on space.

01:53:42   So if you can have a mode in your podcast app

01:53:45   that doesn't use a lot of disk space,

01:53:46   there's a lot of people who want that.

01:53:48   Secondarily, no matter how fast your connection is,

01:53:52   if there's an episode that you wanna listen to right now

01:53:54   and it is not downloaded, to tap it

01:53:56   and to have to sit there and wait for the whole thing

01:53:58   to download before it can even start sucks.

01:54:01   Even if it only sucks for five seconds, that still sucks.

01:54:04   Many, in many cases it's gonna suck for a lot longer

01:54:07   'cause if the reality is not everybody has fast wifi,

01:54:10   not everybody is on wifi,

01:54:12   not everyone's cell connections are that fast.

01:54:14   So if you can tap and start playback soon, immediately,

01:54:19   like that is better, like no question that is better.

01:54:21   - Well forget about the wifi and the cell connections.

01:54:24   I have fast, all of those things.

01:54:27   It takes forever to download some podcast

01:54:29   because the hosting is slow.

01:54:30   That is my biggest complaint about streaming

01:54:32   is like if I forget to download a podcast

01:54:34   and I have to go to work.

01:54:36   You look at it and it's like, what is this doing?

01:54:38   200K per second?

01:54:40   Forget it.

01:54:40   I'm not going to sit here and wait 15 minutes.

01:54:42   And it's not because of my connection.

01:54:44   It's because the server can't feed me the bytes fast enough.

01:54:47   And then I blame your background downloader

01:54:48   for not downloading the background.

01:54:50   Yeah.

01:54:51   If I had to pick one-- I'm not big on streaming.

01:54:53   Like, I like the fact that it will be able to play-- I would

01:54:55   like actually a hybrid mode where

01:54:57   it starts playing as soon as possible,

01:54:58   but it still downloads the whole thing.

01:55:00   But the feature that I mostly get annoyed about with Overcast

01:55:03   is why isn't this downloading?

01:55:04   I don't know why it's not downloading.

01:55:06   I know you have the like start all, stop all thing.

01:55:08   I few delete app it sometimes.

01:55:09   I know you fought with that,

01:55:11   with the background download framework and everything.

01:55:13   It's still mysterious to me.

01:55:15   There's no indication in the UI

01:55:16   and nothing I can do about it to say

01:55:18   other than sometimes pause and restart,

01:55:19   pause and restart until something starts happening.

01:55:21   I always want to know why are you waiting to download?

01:55:23   Just download, I'm on wifi.

01:55:25   - I would also like to know that.

01:55:26   - Yes, I know. - Unfortunately,

01:55:28   the frameworks do not give you that information.

01:55:30   You just sell it, start downloading this

01:55:32   and you know it started when you got the first byte.

01:55:34   - Right, and like a software update running

01:55:35   in the background that's ahead of you in the queue,

01:55:37   you know, taking your spot in the background queue.

01:55:39   It's like, yeah.

01:55:41   - And Aiden Haines in the chat just mentioned

01:55:43   what was gonna be my third point,

01:55:44   which is, you know, let's say I wanna build a feature

01:55:46   where you can view a share link natively in the app.

01:55:49   If somebody says, "Check out this podcast,

01:55:51   "that was so funny at this minute,"

01:55:53   and that minute is an hour into the show.

01:55:56   If you can open up that link in Overcast

01:55:57   and start that playback at that point,

01:56:00   you don't have to download the entire file before that,

01:56:02   the whole first hour of the show,

01:56:04   you can download a few bytes, get the header information,

01:56:06   and then jump ahead with a range request,

01:56:09   and then only download the part from your playhead forward.

01:56:14   So that's also a very compelling use case

01:56:17   that could be very useful in the future

01:56:19   if I do more social features and stuff like that.

01:56:21   So there are all these features, even right now,

01:56:25   when a new download comes in, you get the notification.

01:56:27   Right now, the only thing I can offer on that

01:56:29   is a dismiss button.

01:56:31   I can't wait until it's downloaded and then notified,

01:56:33   but a lot of people don't like that,

01:56:34   and it's not really what people want most of the time.

01:56:36   They wanna know when it's out.

01:56:38   So I notify when it's out.

01:56:41   It would be ideal if I could have a button

01:56:42   on the notification that said play

01:56:44   for the people who want to play it immediately.

01:56:46   And again, that's one more feature I can't do really well

01:56:49   until I have streaming.

01:56:51   So there's a whole bunch of these little features,

01:56:53   little niceties that are all being held up

01:56:56   by my lack of streaming.

01:56:58   And so that's why I'm working on this.

01:57:00   "Yes, I can get along forever without it,

01:57:02   "but the app would be a lot better with it."

01:57:05   And so that's why I'm doing it.

01:57:07   That's why it's worth all this trouble.

01:57:09   And I think I've gotten pretty far with this latest attempt.

01:57:13   I think I'm really onto something here.

01:57:15   I think this might be the one, guys.

01:57:17   I might've found the one.

01:57:19   - Number 42.

01:57:20   You said you looked at a bunch of different packages

01:57:24   in order to do this for you,

01:57:26   and you said that they didn't work.

01:57:27   out of curiosity, did you crib anything particularly useful

01:57:30   from any of these different open source packages,

01:57:32   or was that basically a waste of time?

01:57:35   - I looked at some of them,

01:57:36   just like how they use some of the APIs.

01:57:39   - Right, right.

01:57:40   - But I didn't even copy and paste any code out from them.

01:57:43   Like, it was that different,

01:57:45   or that unsuitable for my task.

01:57:47   Like, it was more of like a general overview of like,

01:57:50   oh, that's interesting, like they don't use a buffer here,

01:57:52   or oh, they're using the audio file API here,

01:57:56   or they're using this weird call here.

01:57:58   It's that kind, it is good that I can look at them

01:58:01   'cause they're open source and I can look at them

01:58:02   and see the stuff, but they haven't been as useful

01:58:06   as I would have hoped.

01:58:07   But for the most part, I would rather that be the case.

01:58:09   Honestly, I would rather write it myself if I can

01:58:11   for lots of reasons.

01:58:12   Part of it because I'm just that kind of arrogant programmer.

01:58:16   Part of it because I want to understand what's happening.

01:58:20   'Cause this is, I wrote the rest of my audio engine,

01:58:22   this is a pretty critical part of it.

01:58:25   And by writing my own audio engine,

01:58:27   I'm able to do so much in the app,

01:58:29   so many little custom things.

01:58:30   Like one of the packages I was looking at,

01:58:34   basically in order to use it,

01:58:35   I would have to replace most of my audio engine with it.

01:58:39   And I tried even just trying to integrate that,

01:58:42   just trying to put that in,

01:58:43   like all the different things that I have

01:58:45   to try to wedge, even having access to their source code,

01:58:50   just the amount of work and change and bug potential

01:58:53   I was creating by trying to just match the features

01:58:57   I have now using their audio engine.

01:59:01   It was more work to do that than it would have been

01:59:04   to just write my own, even if it takes me a year to do it.

01:59:06   - Have you considered writing it in Go?

01:59:08   (laughing)

01:59:10   Or that's fast.

01:59:12   - Oh, I wish speed was the problem, but it's not.

01:59:14   (beeping)