114: So Far, So OK


00:00:00   In the show notes someone has deleted a very important note that note read as follows

00:00:05   But John this looks an awful fucking lot like homework

00:00:08   Because I'm assuming it wasn't Marco that put in all sorts of information about photos for OS X. It's not homework

00:00:15   It's like it looks an awful lot like homework the bare minimum of getting anything written down about a topic

00:00:22   And it's like oh my goodness if I didn't write this down there would be nothing there

00:00:25   just to be like a bullet point that said photos.

00:00:27   I'm just saying, I don't like the look of homework.

00:00:29   Yeah, no Casey, this is not homework.

00:00:31   This is simply research that was done in John's home

00:00:34   that was in preparation for some future work.

00:00:37   Big research, I went to web pages

00:00:39   and copy and pasted some stuff.

00:00:41   It's no more research than getting the feedback emails

00:00:44   we get and copying and pasting information

00:00:46   from them into here.

00:00:46   And then you complain like,

00:00:47   "You didn't give me a link to that tweet."

00:00:49   So apparently it's okay for me to do homework then

00:00:51   when you can't find a link to a tweet on your own,

00:00:53   But now I can't anyway, but it'll be fine. Oh

00:00:56   Goodness, all right. Well now that I've publicly shamed you and then inevitably shamed myself

00:01:03   We should probably do some follow-ups. So let's start with

00:01:06   Pitti Pong. I hope I said that right I went back and forth like five emails trying to get this name right Pitti Pong

00:01:14   he wrote us about the

00:01:18   Thailand crisis that caused the the hard drive problems because of how many hard drives are manufactured there and in the past show I

00:01:25   Had attributed it to a tsunami with a bunch of waffle words around it like tsunami or something anyway

00:01:31   It was not a tsunami. It was a severe flood in 2011 that caused this problem with hard drives

00:01:36   the tsunami was in 2004 in a different part of Thailand and

00:01:40   Apparently the Seagate hard drive factories were not in the flooding area. So why would their quality?

00:01:47   Go down. This is in relation to the back blaze blog post. We talked about last show

00:01:51   About how they bought a bunch of C gate hard drives around the time of the flood and like 90% of them were dead in four

00:01:57   years

00:01:58   Maybe more pressure on the one remaining working factory maybe parts. They got were bad like all sorts of I can imagine

00:02:05   This email said that it's you know, we can say that see if factories were almost

00:02:10   Almost were not affected by the severe flooding maybe not like directly as in they were had water in them

00:02:16   but clearly something related to the flood went wrong to cause that batch of drives to

00:02:21   be terrible.

00:02:22   Like they bought thousands of drives and 90% dead in four years is not a good deal.

00:02:25   So anyway, we got the natural disaster wrong and apparently their factory wasn't underwater

00:02:30   but they were clearly affected.

00:02:31   They also might have just sucked.

00:02:33   Well, I suppose, but like you saw those numbers.

00:02:36   Like those are outside the margin of error.

00:02:39   Especially for Backblaze for them to call it out.

00:02:41   They bought tons of different hard drives from different manufacturers and there's some

00:02:44   Some fluctuations, but that was ridiculous.

00:02:47   - Sort of related, well, quasi-related note,

00:02:49   do you guys have spare drives for your Synologies

00:02:52   just in case one dies?

00:02:54   - I don't.

00:02:55   - I did that for a while, but now, instead of doing that,

00:02:59   now I just converted it to one of the raid modes

00:03:01   that keeps hot spares anyway.

00:03:04   I used to have spares sitting outside of it.

00:03:06   And I recognize now this is less good than that,

00:03:09   but it's not gonna make that big of a difference.

00:03:12   - So are you using the Synology Hybrid RAID

00:03:15   or whatever it's called, the SHR I think it is?

00:03:17   - I have used that in the past.

00:03:18   It's a little slow for me.

00:03:19   So now I have, well now I have my whole crazy iSCSI setup,

00:03:23   which I never actually talked about fully on this show.

00:03:25   But now my entire Synology is one giant iSCSI volume

00:03:30   with whatever RAID variant of RAID, five or six,

00:03:34   that has two disks that are able to fail.

00:03:37   So I have that plus one hot spare.

00:03:39   ready to be swapped into that if needed.

00:03:42   And then I have just all one giant iSCSI volume

00:03:45   that's accessed by network shares on this Mac Mini

00:03:48   that I have that's doing the live stream right now.

00:03:50   And so that way the Mac Mini serves the role

00:03:53   of being my standalone live streaming box

00:03:55   so I don't have to worry about software updates breaking it,

00:03:57   which is always a problem with audio stuff.

00:04:00   Meanwhile, it also runs back blaze on it

00:04:04   to back up the entire contents of that iSCSI volume

00:04:07   as a network share, and also serves it over the network

00:04:11   to other computers on my network.

00:04:14   - Interesting.

00:04:15   - So it's complicated.

00:04:16   - Yeah, for my Synology, I have two physical volumes

00:04:19   that are my time machine backups

00:04:21   and whatever RAID is completely not redundant

00:04:24   because it's just time machine and I don't really care.

00:04:26   - Oh yeah, I have that too, sorry, I forgot.

00:04:28   Yeah, I do have two disks in there that are in RAID 0

00:04:30   that are just for time machine.

00:04:31   - Right, and then I have the other six

00:04:33   that are using Synology, whatever it is, RAID.

00:04:36   I keep wanting to say hybrid, but I feel like that's wrong.

00:04:38   - That's what it is, SHR.

00:04:39   - Oh, it is, okay.

00:04:40   And so I've been thinking about one of these days

00:04:42   when I have a little bit of extra money for Amazon,

00:04:46   I should just get another like three terabyte drive

00:04:49   and just have it sitting there waiting

00:04:51   in case something goes wrong.

00:04:54   But then the other side of me thinks,

00:04:55   well, I could overnight myself one

00:04:58   if I really got desperate and one failed,

00:04:59   so what's the big deal?

00:05:01   I don't know, I was just curious

00:05:01   if you guys had any spares.

00:05:02   What's your approach on this, Jon?

00:05:04   Yeah, I use mine in a weird way. I do have a separate time machine volume, like both

00:05:08   of you, because basically I think you can only have one time machine volume. I have

00:05:12   it actually set up as RAID 1, because it's the one part of the system that I wanted a

00:05:17   little bit of redundancy on, and I didn't really care too much about speed, so it's

00:05:20   not RAID 0, so it's a RAID 1, a two-disc RAID 1 volume for time machine. And I back up both

00:05:26   of my computers over the network to that time machine thing. By the way, someone asked on

00:05:30   Twitter, like, they showed me their backup setup, and they said, "Do you think this is

00:05:34   sufficient I gave them a thumbs up or something. One thing I realized now that they were missing

00:05:38   is, I think when they added this maybe Mountain Lion or maybe it was even Yosemite, they added

00:05:42   the ability to add multiple targets for Time Machine so you could add a disk to your Time

00:05:46   Machine thing and it will back up also to that disk so it won't like back up half to one and

00:05:52   half to the other. It will do a full backup to one target and a full backup to the other target and

00:05:55   basically alternate and I do that. One of my Time Machine backups is to a local disk that's sitting

00:05:59   on the desk with my with the two respective computers and another time machine backup is

00:06:04   over the network to the Synology on their raid one volume and they both fit on there.

00:06:09   And then the rest of the disks I don't do anything with a raid I had it ranged differently in the

00:06:15   beginning but now I don't do anything with raid because basically you know raid is not a backup

00:06:19   strategy raid is mostly there to make sure your downtime is as small as possible but I don't care

00:06:24   if my downtime is a couple days or even a week or whatever there's nothing essential on there

00:06:28   It's just, you know, media and stuff like that mostly.

00:06:31   So I have a bunch of different volumes

00:06:34   that are complete copies of each other.

00:06:37   Like I have my media volume,

00:06:38   my media fits in under three terabytes.

00:06:40   So I think I have like three or four copies of my media.

00:06:42   One of them is synced with like the built-in Synology thing

00:06:46   to the other one.

00:06:47   One of them I copy with Carbon Copy Cloner

00:06:49   on my Mac to the other volume at different intervals.

00:06:53   And it's very strange,

00:06:54   but basically what I wanted to have is like, look,

00:06:56   if one of these things goes bad,

00:06:58   I can just yank it out, order a new hard drive from Amazon.

00:07:02   Doesn't really matter what size it is

00:07:03   because they weren't in a raid set or anything.

00:07:04   It's just like a new hard drive, right?

00:07:06   And while I do that,

00:07:07   I still have two more copies of all my data.

00:07:09   Like basically I'm taking advantage of the fact

00:07:10   that this Synology holds a tremendous amount of data

00:07:13   and I don't have that much data.

00:07:15   So I'm using it as a series of volumes.

00:07:17   And so far the drives have been fine.

00:07:21   I'm not really worried about them failing.

00:07:22   You do get, you guys get that monthly disc health report.

00:07:25   Synology will email you and say,

00:07:28   here's the health report for your disks.

00:07:29   It will tell you how many bad sectors

00:07:31   and how many errors or whatever.

00:07:33   All zeros every month on these things.

00:07:35   So I'm not particularly worried about them.

00:07:37   Lots of redundant data on there.

00:07:40   Like basically I have the same set of data copied

00:07:41   multiple times on multiple plain old single disk volumes.

00:07:46   - Yeah, that's really not bad.

00:07:47   - It's not the answer I expected, but I can get behind that.

00:07:50   - And I have spare empty disks still.

00:07:51   Like, so if I need to put something else in,

00:07:53   Like it seemed like a strange setup to me

00:07:56   and I tried different arrangements,

00:07:57   but in the end it's like,

00:07:58   look, I don't care about downtime,

00:07:59   I just care about the data being safe.

00:08:02   And I know now if I download something or rip something

00:08:05   and put it in my media drive,

00:08:06   it will slowly migrate to the other copies

00:08:09   of the media drive over time.

00:08:10   And I'll have three copies of it.

00:08:13   - And do neither of you guys have online backup

00:08:16   for your Synology stuff?

00:08:17   - I do, I mount it on my wife's computer

00:08:20   and then I use CrashPlan,

00:08:21   which can back up network drives?

00:08:23   - Yep, ditto.

00:08:24   - Yeah, that's the one thing I wish Backblaze did.

00:08:26   And they've said a number of times that, you know,

00:08:29   just kind of a cost issue because NAS drives can be huge,

00:08:33   but I really hope, they've always said

00:08:35   that they are thinking about it in the future.

00:08:37   I really hope they do network drives

00:08:39   because that's the one downside of it.

00:08:42   And I like it so much without that

00:08:45   that I'd go through this crazy setup

00:08:47   with mounting iSCSI on a Mac mini

00:08:50   to have it be posted on a Mac officially and have it be backed up that way, but I've tried

00:08:55   crash plan running on the Synology because they have an actual client that runs on there.

00:08:59   I've tried crash plan running on the on a Mac that's backing it up over the network

00:09:04   and whatever the whatever the reason is, it doesn't work for me and and there's some kind

00:09:10   of issue that the crash plan client is still written in Java and there's some kind of issue

00:09:15   you where you start hitting weird memory limits. If you

00:09:18   have a large number of files, regardless of the file size, I

00:09:22   think I think it's just if you have a very large number of

00:09:24   files, the the crash plan client can start crapping out

00:09:28   doing weird things and erroring out or being just

00:09:30   ridiculously slow to upload them or to track them and I I

00:09:34   hit those problems every time I've tried crash plan,

00:09:37   whether it was on on the Synology itself or on a Mac

00:09:39   and I've tried. There are so many like alternative

00:09:42   configuration files. I even blogged about one when I found

00:09:44   that I thought worked and it worked for like a week and then stopped working.

00:09:47   I've had nothing but trouble trying to back up a very large number of files to

00:09:52   CrashPlan. That was one of my strategies for the Synology 2 is big files so it's

00:09:57   like movie rips and like you know even the time machine thing it's disk images

00:10:02   it's not all the little individual time machine files because when you do time

00:10:05   machine over a network it makes huge disk images it is just really big files

00:10:08   so it's not a million files it is a small number of multi gigabyte files and

00:10:13   I think that's why I'm able to get away with CrashPlan backing it up.

00:10:16   Yeah, I dig it.

00:10:19   Moving on, we should talk about the new MacBook battery, the life it has under load.

00:10:25   I'm not sure if this was John or Marco that added this.

00:10:28   We were wondering a couple shows back,

00:10:30   this new MacBook, it's really skinny. It's got a very tiny little battery in there. It's got a very low power CPU and

00:10:40   The battery life we weren't sure about because it hadn't shipped yet and like well, maybe it gets the battery life

00:10:44   They say if you use it lightly

00:10:45   But what is it like if you use it heavily if you really stress this thing by you know?

00:10:50   Just using Xcode constantly or using Photoshop or Final Cut or something like if you really really use this

00:10:55   Does the does the battery life?

00:10:57   Drop dramatically because like the CPU is like oh, I'm gonna be very conservative and sip power

00:11:02   But it's like, you know, the ratings are like 1.1 gigahertz or 1.3, but it turbos up to like 2.9

00:11:08   It's like what if you leave it in turbo mode all the time? Is it just gonna destroy your battery?

00:11:11   and

00:11:13   Marco was musing that rather than just seeing battery life tests of like maybe a heavy and light load. He would like to see

00:11:19   Delta's like

00:11:22   How much worse is the battery life on this laptop in?

00:11:25   heavy usage versus light usage and he was guessing that maybe the new MacBook would not be that great in that area because maybe gets

00:11:32   All its power savings from being really careful, but if you really stress it, it just becomes more like a regular CPU

00:11:37   So true to form and tech did that test with a bunch of laptops and as it turns out the new

00:11:44   MacBook one one port to 12 inch retina, whatever you want to call it thing

00:11:48   Has the best performance of any of the Apple laptops they tested when comparing its high load versus as low load it retains

00:11:56   62.2% of its battery life and the next best one is 59 and it goes down with the 11 inch

00:12:04   2011 MacBook Air being the worst where it gets like 38 percent 38.3 percent of its uh

00:12:09   Low load battery life, so we'll put a link to this in the show notes. It's a pleasant surprise that the newest notebook not only

00:12:16   Has the lowest power CPU and the tiniest battery, but also takes the smallest hit when you use it at load now marco's blog post

00:12:24   I think was about how all these are not great that all of them right this great battery life if you just surf the web

00:12:31   but if you use any of them hard, forget about all day,

00:12:33   you're down into the four or five hour range.

00:12:35   - Yeah, that was the most depressing part for me

00:12:37   because Apple loves to use this phrase

00:12:39   all day battery life now, and of course,

00:12:41   what is considered all day varies by what device

00:12:46   they're talking about and also by how you're using it.

00:12:49   And so all day battery life on the watch is,

00:12:52   from all the reviews you've heard so far,

00:12:54   sufficient to actually last through the day for most people,

00:12:58   unless you're really using it a lot

00:13:00   having the screen on a lot. Then a lot of then some of the

00:13:03   reviews have said, oh, we had to charge it midway through the day or whatever,

00:13:06   but you it seemed like for the most part that's fairly accurate if you use it

00:13:10   lightly the way Apple has made it possible to use today. The iPhone and

00:13:15   iPad are both similarly advertised. I think I don't know if you actually use

00:13:19   the phrase all day battery life on the iPhone yet, but I'm pretty sure they've

00:13:22   used it on the iPad and you know similarly advertised of yeah all day and

00:13:26   And the iPad that actually seems pretty accurate,

00:13:29   it seems like it gets about eight to 10 hours of battery life

00:13:33   depending on what it's doing most of the time.

00:13:36   The iPhone is more varied, it seems to depend more

00:13:40   on what you're doing and things like radio reception,

00:13:44   how hard the cell radio is working,

00:13:46   whether you're using GPS or not, things like that.

00:13:50   The laptops, Apple advertises them as having,

00:13:53   generally I think the lowest claim they make now

00:13:56   like seven hours and that's on the 15 inch something like that and and their

00:13:59   claims are pretty accurate if you compare them to other third-party light

00:14:05   web browsing type tasks and that's in the nntech one here they they showed

00:14:10   basically the same thing that like their numbers line up pretty well with apples

00:14:13   for a light web browsing workload the problem though is and so you know light

00:14:18   web browsing workloads right now you can get if you if you consider the old

00:14:22   old MacBook Air, the non-retina MacBook Air,

00:14:25   you can get 12 hours on the 13 inch.

00:14:28   But if you only want a retina machine,

00:14:30   which I was saying at this point,

00:14:32   I think most buyers who are considering buying

00:14:34   a new laptop today, the smart move obviously,

00:14:37   I think, is to go retina.

00:14:38   Like I wouldn't consider any other machine today

00:14:41   besides a retina machine.

00:14:42   So for that, you're maxing out at eight hours of light usage

00:14:49   and if you're using it and that's only that's like not

00:14:53   even the fifteen inch. If you get the fifteen inch, you're

00:14:54   maxing out more like six to seven of light usage and then

00:14:58   the heavy usage, which they're heavy usage is not even that

00:15:02   heavy. It's like it's like it's still web browsing, but I

00:15:06   think it's like loading pages more frequently and also

00:15:09   downloading a large file and playing a movie in the

00:15:11   background. I wouldn't call that a very heavy workload.

00:15:14   You're probably not maxing out any of the cores for you know

00:15:17   for a sustained amount of time.

00:15:19   Like there's like, this is a very generous definition

00:15:23   of a heavy workload.

00:15:24   - Well, the movie playing in the background is substantial

00:15:26   because it is just never giving the CPU a break.

00:15:28   It's always just decoding, decoding.

00:15:30   - Maybe.

00:15:31   - Unless it's using like hardware H.264.

00:15:34   - Oh, I'm sure it is, but still.

00:15:35   I mean, that's not a very, I mean,

00:15:38   that would have been a heavy test in 2006.

00:15:40   That is not a very heavy test in 2015.

00:15:43   But either way, okay, that's fine.

00:15:46   under that allegedly heavy workload, none of the retina

00:15:50   machines get over five hours. The the new MacBook one gets

00:15:55   five point. Oh, three hours and an insect test. Every other

00:15:58   one was below five and the fifties are four like and this

00:16:03   makes me sad as somebody who usually wants the fifteen inch

00:16:06   laptop. So this like these numbers, this is not all day

00:16:12   battery life and and this is this is my main disappointment

00:16:15   in in the current lineup is that if you if you actually use it in any way

00:16:21   heavily you're not going to make it you're not going to make it on a cross

00:16:25   country flight necessarily you're probably not going to make it all day at

00:16:29   work if you forgot your adapter at home stuff like that like the scenarios that

00:16:34   that don't necessarily happen every day but it's clear that Apple is pushing

00:16:38   that direction like like the MacBook one having no mag safe we talked about this

00:16:42   a lot before where it's pretty clear through the way they were things and

00:16:46   even just the way it's designed it's pretty clear that they don't intend for

00:16:48   this thing to be used plugged in all the time they intend for it to be more like

00:16:52   an iPad where you plug it in like to charge it at night basically and you use

00:16:56   it all day without being plugged in and presumably you're moving about somewhat

00:17:00   but that's as we can see from this under the heavy workload here even the MacBook

00:17:06   one only lasted five hours so that's a pretty short day if you don't have your

00:17:11   if you're not plugging it in and all the other ones even fair much worse. So my

00:17:16   argument here is I wish there was there were some models that that broke out of

00:17:20   this pattern like the heavy workload battery life is such these are such

00:17:23   small numbers and right now Apple like the there used to be different

00:17:27   categories of laptops there would be like the desktop replacement and then

00:17:32   like the kind of mid-range and then the thin and light ultra portables right now

00:17:37   now, it seems like everything Apple makes is a thin and light ultra portable,

00:17:41   and so my argument is I wish they would make not even many, but just like one or

00:17:48   two models that traded thin and lightness a little bit for a bigger

00:17:54   battery and just offered really great battery life. I'm not asking for their

00:17:58   entire line to do this. I know if the nurse is sexy and it sells really well

00:18:02   and that's great and they love it and that's fine. I get the appeal there, but

00:18:06   I wish it wasn't the only choice in the lineup like

00:18:09   there. All these things are, you know, moving some

00:18:11   sliders and and making all these trade-offs. There's so

00:18:14   many trade-offs to be made here with designing a

00:18:16   physical thing like this, especially with battery power

00:18:19   versus weight and and fitness. I want to be clear.

00:18:23   Thinness is not usually the main goal. I think the main

00:18:27   goal is weight savings and fitness is something you can

00:18:30   do afterwards as a result of having removed components

00:18:33   from the inside that were big and heavy, but I just I wish

00:18:36   there were other options here and a lot of people have

00:18:40   pointed to well, you can get an external battery pack for

00:18:42   things like the iPhones and iPads and the MacBook one now

00:18:45   that has usbc that's probably going to be compatible with

00:18:48   with external battery packs as well, though it seems like

00:18:50   there aren't any that really have enough power yet, but you

00:18:53   know they that will happen. You'll be able to get external

00:18:56   battery packs and that's good, but you can't do it yet. That's

00:19:01   problem number one and problem number two is as you see with

00:19:04   iPhone and battery solutions there.

00:19:07   External battery packs have a huge cost associated with using them rather than just having more

00:19:14   battery life in the device to begin with.

00:19:16   It's similar to how I was complaining a few weeks back about how USB hubs are all pretty

00:19:20   terrible and that by removing USB ports and forcing people to use hubs you're forcing

00:19:24   people to trade a nice reliable internal integrated thing for an external thing made by random

00:19:30   third parties that usually isn't very good.

00:19:33   have similar issues where if the device has good battery life up front built in

00:19:38   then it's it's just nicer it's better if you have to rely on extra batteries

00:19:42   external batteries have their own charging circuitry they have their own

00:19:44   cases if you're talking about like an iPhone battery case that means you have

00:19:48   like two different layers of plastic or metal around this battery that you have

00:19:53   to then add to the thickness of the phone rather than just having it built

00:19:55   in and skipping all those layers you have ports to worry about you have

00:19:59   different cables you have to keep it charged somehow and it charges

00:20:02   separately and it might not be like a pass-through kind of charge or you have

00:20:05   a different cable. There's so many little annoyances and and costs and burdens

00:20:10   taxes really associated with relying on external battery packs to supplement

00:20:15   your devices. It's so much nicer and and more efficient to have them built in.

00:20:19   We were talking about this earlier in the week I think I mentioned like a Mophie

00:20:24   for your Apple Watch. Same deal with the Apple Watch, not a lot of battery life.

00:20:27   Well get a crazy g-shock looking mofi type case that clamps on the thing somehow and provides extra battery power

00:20:35   We're making it bulkier. Well for the MacBook one

00:20:37   How about like a an iPhone mofi style thing for the MacBook one that clamps onto the bottom and makes it thicker, right?

00:20:42   or you know thinking of your the logical conclusion of your

00:20:45   Sort of battery outlier thing is bring back the 17-inch put the MacBook ones CPU inside it just fill the rest with battery

00:20:53   Still still one port of course, that's the thing too because because they offer machines that have giant batteries

00:21:00   But they have hotter CPUs and GBs exactly like as you move up the battery capacity amount

00:21:05   they also ramp up the component types so that you can't get a

00:21:10   15 inch MacBook Pro with a 15 watt TDP CPU in it like the ones that go in the MacBook Air

00:21:16   You can't get that

00:21:17   They don't offer that option and I would do that if they offered

00:21:19   The MacBook one CPU is pretty low that they get to get that that that 4.5 watt TDP

00:21:25   I might still take it but it's pretty low

00:21:27   But even if they just put the MacBook air class CPU the 15 watt ish TDP range

00:21:32   They take that and put it in the 15 inch rather than the 35 40 watt TDPs

00:21:38   They have in there for the quad cores. I would buy that because that then you'd have this computer that has

00:21:43   Way more battery life than the current 15s and yeah, it wouldn't have as good a performance

00:21:49   but I don't necessarily need quad cores on my laptop and I bet I'm not the only

00:21:53   one I mean you can look right now you can see the sales of the MacBook one

00:21:56   being apparently pretty good considering you can't get them like they're there

00:22:00   it seems like they the sales are likely exceeding their projected demand for it

00:22:05   so obviously there there is demand here for things that have other qualities

00:22:11   besides top performance man I would kill for it for why I wouldn't kill but I

00:22:16   I would love a 15 inch laptop that had a really low power

00:22:21   CPU in it and just gave me all that bonus battery life

00:22:24   as a trade off to that.

00:22:26   - Did you see the link they put in the chat room

00:22:27   to this tough armor snap on case for the Apple Watch?

00:22:31   This does not add battery to it,

00:22:32   but just merely makes your Apple Watch bigger and uglier.

00:22:34   - This is so bad.

00:22:35   - Oh my God, that was not a joke?

00:22:37   - No, look, I put the link in,

00:22:38   look at the links in the chat room.

00:22:40   - I saw a picture of this fly by on Twitter,

00:22:41   I thought it was a joke.

00:22:43   - Yeah, I mean, I guess it protects the nice shiny,

00:22:46   If you get the sport one and don't want people to know,

00:22:48   you cover it up with this thing.

00:22:50   And like, oh yeah, it's the Apple Watch.

00:22:52   It's not the sport at all.

00:22:53   - Yeah, I don't think,

00:22:55   (laughs)

00:22:56   I don't think you're gaining anything

00:22:57   by adding this to it though.

00:22:58   - Yeah, it's too bad it doesn't come with any battery.

00:23:01   - So bad.

00:23:02   It's funny you were talking about thinness and battery life

00:23:04   because although I don't have a lot to say

00:23:06   about the battery life,

00:23:08   earlier today I was at work and the IT guy at work

00:23:13   sent me an IM and was like, "Hey, I have a Mac question for you. Would you mind coming

00:23:17   over?" And so I went over to his desk and long story short, our CEO had upgraded from

00:23:22   the very, very first retina MacBook Pro to a brand new 15 inch retina MacBook Pro. And

00:23:28   the IT guy wanted to get our CEOs 160 or whatever it was gig VMware Fusion VM from one laptop

00:23:36   to the other. And he had this like three terabyte external drive hanging off the old machine.

00:23:43   And he said, "Well, it won't let me write to it."

00:23:45   Why?

00:23:46   Because it's NCFS.

00:23:47   And so initially, my first thought was,

00:23:50   well, duh, let's just get a couple of ethernet cables

00:23:53   and hook it up to a switch and life will be good,

00:23:57   except they're too thin

00:23:58   and they don't have ethernet ports.

00:23:59   And so I said, okay,

00:24:00   well, we'll just get the stupid dongle.

00:24:02   So you have, oh, we don't have any dongles.

00:24:04   And it's like, I understand why we want them to be thin.

00:24:08   Just like you guys said, it's sexy, it sells,

00:24:11   it's lighter in many cases,

00:24:13   easier to carry, but God, what I wouldn't have given

00:24:16   for a couple of darn ethernet ports.

00:24:18   Like, is that really too much to ask?

00:24:21   I don't know, it just seems crazy to me.

00:24:22   - Why don't you just reboot into Windows?

00:24:25   - Well, and actually what he had said was, you know what?

00:24:27   I'll dupe the VM and I'll have one of the VMs in Windows

00:24:32   copy the copy onto the external drive,

00:24:36   the copy the duplicate of the VM onto the external drive.

00:24:39   So it's Windows writing to an NTFS partition.

00:24:42   But that was really convoluted until,

00:24:44   and we almost did it until we realized that,

00:24:47   oh wait, we have other externals we can use

00:24:48   and we can just format them to be HFS plus ding

00:24:52   and pray for the best.

00:24:54   Now I did try airdrop,

00:24:55   but that was so unbelievably slow for 160 gig file

00:24:59   that we didn't even see the little circle progress meters

00:25:02   start to fill in.

00:25:03   - Yeah, it's probably not really made for that.

00:25:05   - No.

00:25:06   - And you couldn't do Thunderbolt both ways?

00:25:08   They have that now.

00:25:10   - I didn't know if that was a possibility

00:25:12   and I was confident we didn't have the cables,

00:25:13   even if it was.

00:25:14   - Yeah, that's the other part, yeah.

00:25:15   The problem with Thunderbolt networking

00:25:17   is that nobody has Thunderbolt cables just lying around.

00:25:19   - Exactly.

00:25:20   I don't know, it's just, I agree with you guys.

00:25:22   I wish just a shade more thickness

00:25:25   I really don't think would be so bad.

00:25:27   - And again, it doesn't have to be the whole product line.

00:25:29   It doesn't even have to be the main product.

00:25:32   But the 13 inch MacBook Pro, the 15 inch MacBook Pro,

00:25:36   these are things that are already,

00:25:38   they're a little bit past the mainstream.

00:25:40   They're a little bit above the mainstream.

00:25:41   15 is significantly above the mainstream. And I even said in the article, like, I wish

00:25:46   they'd bring back the 17. And I got a lot of people saying, "Oh my God, I'll buy that

00:25:50   in a second." People love the 17. But it's okay to have something at the top of the lineup

00:25:57   that is not thin and light. Like, even if you look even at the new Mac Pro design, right,

00:26:02   like which we talked about, I think, in the past. But even if you look at that, they've

00:26:07   they've made trade-offs there that weren't necessarily that

00:26:11   nobody was really asking for, but they made them regardless

00:26:15   and like reducing the amount of slots and bays and ports and

00:26:18   everything and some of that is beneficial and some of it is

00:26:22   just kind of well, I didn't really need that, but oh well

00:26:25   and again like I wish that like for things like the pro

00:26:28   customers, the pro products.

00:26:30   I wish the thinness and lightness wasn't as high of a

00:26:34   priority as it is. I still want them to work on that and bring

00:26:37   to like the 15 inch line but again it doesn't have to be the only option. Yeah

00:26:43   all right why don't you tell us about something that's cool these days. Our

00:26:46   first sponsor this week is Cards Against Humanity. Oh yes.

00:26:52   So John what is the toaster oven of the week? So this week we have the Proctor

00:27:06   "Cylex Durable Toaster Oven Broiler" model number,

00:27:10   I think this is the model number, 31116R.

00:27:14   Wow, this is a small one, very small.

00:27:18   I think it's the smallest toaster I've tried so far.

00:27:21   Barely fits two slices of bread.

00:27:23   It looks very tiny and cute.

00:27:24   - Wait, wait, wait, is this white?

00:27:26   - Yep.

00:27:27   - I asked not because of white.

00:27:29   Ha ha ha ha.

00:27:30   No, because I'm looking up on Amazon

00:27:32   as you're talking to me about this.

00:27:34   And as you're saying the words,

00:27:36   you can barely fit two slices in it.

00:27:38   I see the title on Amazon, which reads,

00:27:40   and I'm reading this directly,

00:27:42   Proctor Seileck's four-slice toaster oven, comma, white.

00:27:46   - That's definitely not it.

00:27:47   Like, the knobs are not even close.

00:27:48   Anyway, very small, two slices if you're lucky.

00:27:53   I think two big slices probably wouldn't even fit.

00:27:55   It's got two, I think the quartz elements,

00:27:57   the big, larger ones that light up really quickly

00:28:00   instead of like the resistive ones

00:28:01   that are thinner and take a long time to glow.

00:28:03   Two big elements, one on top, one on bottom,

00:28:05   with really big, nice metal guards over them.

00:28:08   It looks kind of cute, but part of that cuteness

00:28:11   is the fact that it has a curved top,

00:28:14   which is just a bad idea.

00:28:16   'Cause everyone wants to put stuff on top of the toaster.

00:28:18   At the very least, you put the little tray

00:28:19   that it comes with on top of the toaster.

00:28:20   Maybe you put potholders on top of it.

00:28:22   I know you probably shouldn't put a lot of stuff

00:28:23   'cause it gets hot, but people do,

00:28:25   and you don't have a lot of counter space.

00:28:26   You put stuff on top of the toaster.

00:28:26   You make it curved, everything you put on top

00:28:28   sort of wants to skitter off the side.

00:28:30   It's ridiculous, so bad idea there.

00:28:32   Door feels pretty flimsy.

00:28:34   The handle attached to the door feels flimsy.

00:28:36   When you open the door,

00:28:37   it feels like it might come off in your hand.

00:28:39   It doesn't pull the tray out when you open.

00:28:41   The pan, like the little pan that it comes with,

00:28:45   has a thing where it slides underneath the wire rack.

00:28:47   So you can kind of put something on the wire rack.

00:28:49   Then if it drips, it won't drip onto the heating element.

00:28:51   It'll drip into the pan.

00:28:52   But of course the pan will also block the heat.

00:28:53   I'm not entirely sure why that is in there,

00:28:55   but it's an interesting feature at least.

00:28:57   That tray sturdiness is reasonable.

00:29:00   It doesn't look like it was stamped

00:29:01   out of a piece of aluminum foil,

00:29:02   but it's not particularly sturdy.

00:29:03   It's got two knobs on front, a refreshingly simple interface.

00:29:07   Just two knobs, no buttons, no anything else.

00:29:11   The top knob is for temperature, so you go from 0 to 450, and then if you go past 450

00:29:15   you're into the toast zone.

00:29:17   It's got a broil setting too that's right around 450.

00:29:20   And the bottom knob is basically just a timer.

00:29:22   They put a bunch of markings on it, but what it boils down to is you turn it clockwise

00:29:25   and it's a timer.

00:29:26   You turn it to the left and it's just forced on and it stays on.

00:29:30   This toaster is a ticker.

00:29:31   Oh, you must love that.

00:29:33   The way you do anything with it is top knob either set it to a temperature to bake set it to broil or set it

00:29:38   To toast and then to make it do anything you take the bottom knob and you crank it either you put it to the force

00:29:44   On position which I'm not sure why you do that. Maybe because like the bottom timer only goes to 15 minutes

00:29:48   So if you want to go for longer than 15 and don't want to have to re crank it

00:29:51   Just put it in the forced on position and I guess don't forget that it's on or you'll burn your house down

00:29:55   But yeah, you turn it to whatever you want and they have little marks

00:29:59   It look like toast getting darker around the five-minute mark, but bottom line

00:30:02   It's just a timer tick tick tick tick tick pretty darn loud. Maybe two ticks a second

00:30:06   I really don't like taking toasters. I just you know it

00:30:11   Just you don't want that in the morning

00:30:13   Do you want to have this loud thing ticking in your kitchen in the morning? I definitely don't really

00:30:17   I mean I would think it would be helpful to help to help indicate that it is on

00:30:21   Well, I mean like what I want from a toaster is again like for informed by my childhood

00:30:26   But we had a little knob you push it down and then when it's done

00:30:29   That goes ding and little thing comes up and that lets you know that your toast is done in between

00:30:34   I don't need to know right just ding when you're done. That's all I want

00:30:38   So but anyway, it's it's a small toaster. It has the two big quartz elements

00:30:42   I had some high hopes that it would be a fast toaster, but it is way slow

00:30:47   it was like more than a minute slower than my other toaster to toast a single slice of bread and

00:30:51   The reason that does that is that the bottom element does not turn on when you're in toast mode

00:30:57   The bottom element does not turn them on you're in boil mode

00:31:00   The only time the bottom heating element turns I thought was broken at first

00:31:02   The only time the bottom heating and what turns on is when you're in bake mode and I don't understand that at all

00:31:06   Like if I want to toast I want both sides of the bread toasted

00:31:09   How are you gonna toast both sides of the bread if you just turn on the top element?

00:31:11   So it makes it super slow and it's stupid

00:31:14   So you like it this is my least favorite toaster because it's really small it's really slow it ticks and it does something dumb

00:31:22   I didn't get the

00:31:24   Maybe if I put it on bake at 450 it would toast bread faster than if I put it on toast

00:31:29   Oh, yeah, and of course you have to turn it knobs exactly the right spot, which is you know, very fuzzy or whatever

00:31:34   So big thumbs down in this toaster at high hopes given just the specs and the size but that just does too many things wrong

00:31:53   Four slice capacity. You've got to be kidding me. Like do you know that cinnamon raisin bread that peppered for themselves?

00:31:58   You know that comes in a little plastic bag. It's pre sliced. Yep. You know how small those slices are

00:32:03   I don't think you could fit four of them in here

00:32:05   Could you fit four melba toasts in here for what?

00:32:09   probably

00:32:11   But no it is it is a ridiculous toaster for this price

00:32:16   I would have to see the price of the tuna black and Decker one because the tuna black and Decker one was way better and

00:32:22   Just a little bit bigger and it was similarly featured two knobs turned to the right thing or whatever

00:32:27   But it just did the job better it toasted actually toasted stuff

00:32:30   Like I would I could never wait for this thing to toast something and when it was done

00:32:32   It would just have toasted at the top. So

00:32:34   Do not buy this toaster. Well, thanks a lot to Cards Against Humanity for sponsoring this week. All right

00:32:40   That was exciting. I love those

00:32:43   Speaking of exciting John your one of your favorite albums is

00:32:50   available again. Well, it never really wasn't available, but half of the internet has written

00:32:56   us to inform us that the Journey soundtrack is available on vinyl. So, are you picking

00:33:01   a copy up? Everyone should have been writing to you, because you might be excited about

00:33:06   it. Why would I be excited about it? I have the Journey soundtrack in a digital form.

00:33:10   Actually, I do as well. Yeah, and I would never want it on a record, because A) I don't

00:33:14   have anything to play it on, and B) why would I want that? Why? You mean you don't want

00:33:18   things to be less convenient, scratchy, less reliable over time, bigger and also sound

00:33:23   worse?

00:33:24   >> Yes, yes, yes.

00:33:25   >> Maybe like the picture discs, they look kind of cool and the album cover is kind of

00:33:31   cool art wise, but I do also have the Journey art books. I feel like I have the Journey

00:33:35   artwork stuff covered.

00:33:37   >> So it's at best a poster and at worst a trinket.

00:33:39   >> Yep. I mean, it's like maybe a kind of a neat collectible thing, but I would never

00:33:44   play it or anything. But, you know, in case you might like it, you would get them and

00:33:47   bring them to your dad's fancy turntable, right?

00:33:49   Well, that's the thing is I was going to remind the internet who seems to forget

00:33:53   so often that I actually do not own a turntable.

00:33:56   And I think that, and I think that people seem to forget that just because I

00:33:59   fancy turntables and just because I think that the tea ceremony is fun and

00:34:04   I won't say whether or not I think they sound better, but I actually do not own

00:34:09   a turntable. And of course, anytime anything happens, even vaguely related to

00:34:13   vinyl. Half the internet comes to remind me either that vinyl is terrible or "oh

00:34:17   haha look people are actually buying vinyl you're all frickin crazy" etc etc.

00:34:23   But no I actually do not own a turntable and I'd like to get one at some point

00:34:27   but I don't have one so I'm not going to be buying this either and if I did just

00:34:30   like you said John I'd be bringing it to dads to listen to it there. Out of

00:34:34   curiosity what was the Journey soundtrack originally recorded onto an

00:34:38   analog medium and then kept analog through its entire editing and mastering

00:34:42   process? Oh, surely not. Yeah. It is, it is recordings of people playing instruments,

00:34:48   so start, it started off analog in that respect. Okay, so it isn't purely, you know, an electronic

00:34:53   music soundtrack. Okay. But yeah, so I don't mind people who like vinyl. I just mind when

00:34:59   they start saying it sounds better, because it sounds different and by almost every actual

00:35:07   like objective measure, it sounds worse, but it does sound different. In some ways, it

00:35:12   can be more pleasing to people or it can bring back fond memories of the past, and that's

00:35:18   why it's popular. None of those things are evidence to tell people that it just sounds

00:35:25   better.

00:35:26   - Well, it's popular now because it's retro. That's why the quote-unquote hipsters like

00:35:30   it because it is, because they don't have any nostalgic, probably, they were already

00:35:35   going to live, you know, their parents didn't play record albums for them when they were

00:35:39   young but it is a retro thing, you know.

00:35:41   - Yeah, there is effectively no technical merit for it. There are lots of other reasons

00:35:47   to enjoy it but any technical argument is not founded in reality.

00:35:53   - Are you done?

00:35:56   - I think so, for today.

00:35:58   - I so deeply regret bringing this up. All right, so we should probably bring up WWDC

00:36:05   tickets, and how that turned out. We've been asked several times, I have not knowingly

00:36:10   replied to anyone on Twitter, I didn't know what the group of us wanted to do, if we wanted

00:36:15   to make it a surprise or we wanted to share, and we have concluded we would like to share.

00:36:19   So Jon, are you going to be able to go to WWDC?

00:36:23   I don't know, I entered the WWDC ticket lottery and I did not get a ticket in the lottery,

00:36:29   and I am not going without a ticket. So, there you have it, if I don't get a ticket I'm not

00:36:35   going right now, I am not going. I still have my hotel booked because it's easy to cancel

00:36:39   up to 24 hours before, but I do not have any flights booked and I'm not going without a

00:36:43   ticket. So I'm kind of bummed by that and I was especially bummed hearing all the other

00:36:48   people who did get tickets in the lottery. Those people may or may not include Marco?

00:36:53   I did in fact get a ticket in the lottery. Which is extremely exciting and I actually

00:36:58   did as well, which I'm very excited about. And I am very, very sad, Jon, that you did

00:37:02   not get a ticket. I really wish that all three of us did. And who knows, maybe the WWDC ferry

00:37:09   will sprinkle a ticket on you some way somehow. But yeah, that is the situation. So for those

00:37:15   of you who had asked, that's the deal. Any other thoughts on that from the two of you?

00:37:20   It's pretty good. Like two out of three. Two out of the three hosts got tickets in the

00:37:24   lottery. That seems pretty good in the grand scheme of things.

00:37:27   Yeah, it does seem like, I mean last year there was, as you mentioned last time, there

00:37:32   there was a system last year where you could enter

00:37:33   from multiple developer accounts,

00:37:35   and you could enter if you weren't really that sure

00:37:37   if you wanted to go, you just wanted to see maybe,

00:37:38   oh, maybe I'll get the opportunity to buy a ticket.

00:37:40   This year, you had to commit to buy one,

00:37:43   and they would charge you to give it to you.

00:37:45   - Oh, we should talk about that too,

00:37:46   because that is heartbreaking.

00:37:47   For the people who won the lottery,

00:37:51   and Apple tried to charge their card,

00:37:52   - Oh, yeah. - and got the charge,

00:37:54   the charge didn't work, because their credit card company

00:37:56   like flagged it as fraud or whatever,

00:37:58   and in many cases immediately called the people and said,

00:38:00   "Hey, some company just tried to charge your card $1600.

00:38:05   We blocked it, do you wanna let the charge through?"

00:38:07   And they'd be like, "Yes, yes, let the charge through."

00:38:08   But it was too late.

00:38:09   Apple didn't moved on and gave their ticket to someone else.

00:38:12   I'm pretty sure that didn't happen to me,

00:38:14   but that would have just broken my heart even more.

00:38:16   - Yeah, to Marco's point,

00:38:17   I know that happened to Swilliams

00:38:19   and he handled it much better than I would have,

00:38:22   but he was pretty upset about it.

00:38:23   I would have been just fricking devastated.

00:38:26   And it's funny because I don't remember

00:38:28   if I told the story on the show,

00:38:28   What's suffice it to say, during the registration process,

00:38:32   even though I didn't read the part where it says,

00:38:34   oh, you're going to be Insta-charged if you win,

00:38:37   I did read something which I couldn't find

00:38:40   when I went back to look for it.

00:38:42   So I feel like it was during the process of registering

00:38:45   that I saw it.

00:38:46   But anyway, it said, you should probably warn your bank

00:38:50   that this is gonna happen

00:38:51   because we are reserving the right to just punt you

00:38:54   if your card is declined.

00:38:56   And so I saw that and I immediately called Bank of America and yes before you write me

00:39:01   I understand that you hate Bank of America and they screwed you I get it Bank of America sucks vinyl sucks

00:39:06   I know this is not the year of Casey apparently. It's an all-out attack on Casey right now

00:39:10   It is wait till we talk about the white shirt. Oh

00:39:12   Anyway, so I called Bank of America and this is actually the first not awesome experience I've had with a second not off awesome experience

00:39:20   I've had with Bank of America and I called them and I said hey, you know, I'd like to pre-authorize this charge

00:39:25   So it goes through blah blah blah and they said that's lovely, but we don't pre-authorize things

00:39:28   Okay now it turned out that I did win the lottery

00:39:34   I did get insta charged and it did go through which was slightly surprising because just a couple of years ago

00:39:40   I don't remember which one it was

00:39:42   I did have the WWE DC ticket

00:39:45   Declined originally. I think this might have been the last year of the mad rush

00:39:50   No

00:39:50   I'm sorry the next last year of the mad rush and

00:39:53   You know, they called me and said do you want this? Yes. Yes for the love of God. Yes, let it go through and

00:39:57   And so I was scared this year, but apparently it all worked out

00:40:01   But first Williams he it's we had talked briefly he and I and I believe he said he had pretty much

00:40:06   Instantly just like Marco was there money you said had instantly said yes

00:40:10   Let the charge through and Apple had already moved on it was already too late tough no geez and that I

00:40:15   Understand that but gosh, that's stinky man. I don't know. I don't understand that I

00:40:23   say, you know, give it a window of time,

00:40:25   maybe even 24 hours.

00:40:26   It's like, it doesn't need to all,

00:40:29   it's not as if there's a race for this all to be settled.

00:40:31   Like we need to have all the tickets given to someone

00:40:33   and it's like, if they won the lottery and they got picked,

00:40:36   give it 24 hours for the charge to go through.

00:40:38   I think that's reasonable, something like that.

00:40:40   Because moving on immediately is just, you know,

00:40:41   'cause I didn't, you know, I didn't call to pre-authorize.

00:40:44   I'm pretty sure that wasn't the problem.

00:40:46   Like I never saw any charges on the card

00:40:48   and never got any calls about any charges being reduced.

00:40:50   I just didn't win the lottery period, right?

00:40:51   But if I did, I would be super upset.

00:40:54   I don't feel like that's a great way to do this.

00:40:59   Again, it's not like they were in a rush.

00:41:00   Like 24 hours is fine.

00:41:01   And for those people who won the lottery and then lost it,

00:41:05   man, I mean, I guess it makes someone else happy

00:41:07   because their ticket went to somebody else

00:41:08   who previously wouldn't have won the lottery,

00:41:10   but it's just, boy, that's a bummer.

00:41:13   - It's a pretty crappy way to lose.

00:41:14   And yeah, what Casey said, they did warn you on the pigs

00:41:18   during the buying process.

00:41:19   they told you this is what would happen.

00:41:22   Just because they say that doesn't mean

00:41:23   there's anything you can do

00:41:24   to stop the stupid credit card company.

00:41:26   Sometimes you can call them and say,

00:41:27   "Please, just please let this through."

00:41:29   And they'll be like, "Either we can't do this,"

00:41:31   or be like, "Oh yeah, sure, we'll totally let that through,"

00:41:32   and they'll reject it anyway.

00:41:33   It's not like there's a human there approving this charge.

00:41:35   It's just a bunch of algorithms.

00:41:37   I don't know, maybe you're picking the wrong card.

00:41:40   I may change which card is attached to my Apple ID

00:41:43   to one that gets used more frequently

00:41:45   so that this charge wouldn't look so strange on it

00:41:47   or whatever, but anyway.

00:41:48   Save that for next year.

00:41:50   - I would say that was like the one aspect of this

00:41:52   that didn't feel fair.

00:41:53   The rest of it felt very fair, very nicely run,

00:41:57   it was executed well.

00:41:58   The whole rest of it I thought was great,

00:42:00   but the credit card fraud thing,

00:42:01   I think that was like the one part

00:42:03   that is just kind of crappy for people.

00:42:07   And it happened to a lot of people.

00:42:08   It wasn't just Williams.

00:42:09   I heard from a lot of people who it happened to,

00:42:10   and that's really unfortunate.

00:42:12   - Yeah, it really is.

00:42:12   And you know, even though I said I understand it,

00:42:15   as Jon was talking, I was thinking,

00:42:16   You know, they told pretty much everyone, what was it, this past Friday, is that correct?

00:42:22   Yeah.

00:42:23   You could have left a 24-hour grace period for them to register and still had time, if

00:42:29   it didn't work out, to give other people the ticket and still made it by the promised time

00:42:35   of five in the evening on Monday, Pacific time.

00:42:38   So it is a major bummer, and God, do I feel terrible for Sue Williams and the other people

00:42:43   who had this happen to them.

00:42:45   I agree with you Marco that all told and I'd like to think I would say this even if I didn't get a ticket

00:42:50   This was probably about as fair as they could have made it

00:42:54   And like I said for the first Williams and people who got like it just feels bad because you know that happened

00:42:59   But the bottom line is his ticket went to somebody else who otherwise wouldn't have gotten one

00:43:03   So that person it's in the end. It is simply a random distribution of people

00:43:07   It's just as a little bit of non randomness and like though if you got rejected

00:43:10   Like it's as if some participants never could have won, right?

00:43:14   - I also would say that it does seem just totally anecdotally,

00:43:19   it does seem like a larger proportion of people who applied

00:43:24   got them this year than last year,

00:43:25   indicating that the whole multiple submissions thing

00:43:28   from last year versus this year's committing thing

00:43:31   seems to have helped.

00:43:33   - Yeah, I would love to know what are the odds

00:43:35   of two out of three of us getting it,

00:43:36   'cause I feel like they did not give tickets

00:43:39   to two thirds of the applicants.

00:43:41   - Yeah, that's true, I don't know.

00:43:43   Also a real-time follow-up from Stekert,

00:43:46   he or she said, "There's no such thing as a pre-authorization,

00:43:49   only an authorization.

00:43:50   An authorization needs a payee."

00:43:52   And then they continued, and this is interesting,

00:43:54   "Here's how Apple could do it better.

00:43:55   In the WWDC app," or perhaps in the store app,

00:43:59   "Let people do an Apple Pay to authorize the payment

00:44:02   and then only commit the transaction

00:44:03   if and only if they win the lottery."

00:44:06   - Yeah, that's what I was saying last week,

00:44:07   was what we would do when we were running e-commerce,

00:44:09   is you do an auth for the amount

00:44:11   at the time they do the thing,

00:44:12   but you don't do the settle part of it

00:44:14   where you actually take the money from them.

00:44:15   Like Auth doesn't do anything, just says,

00:44:16   "Yes, you're authorized to pay this amount to this,

00:44:18   "but like do the testing at that point."

00:44:20   You'd still be in the same situation

00:44:21   of like when you're clicking through the thing,

00:44:23   if they tried to do the Auth and they got rejected,

00:44:25   and then your credit card company called you,

00:44:27   like what would have be happening then?

00:44:28   Would you still be in the flow of clicking through?

00:44:30   Would it send you back to the page

00:44:31   or would it just be like,

00:44:32   "Sorry, we tried to authorize it and we couldn't.

00:44:34   "Now you can never go through this process again."

00:44:36   I don't know.

00:44:37   I mean, you have to think about what their goals are,

00:44:40   but this is, they're tweaking the system.

00:44:42   hopefully they'll tweak it again next year.

00:44:44   Maybe some people were saying in the chat room,

00:44:46   the people whose card got charged and then got rejected

00:44:49   and then didn't get a ticket,

00:44:51   maybe they have some recourse to say,

00:44:53   look, Apple, I won the lottery,

00:44:55   but my card got denied and I approved it.

00:44:58   Is there anything you can do?

00:44:59   I don't know, I haven't heard about anybody

00:45:00   successfully doing that who didn't get their ticket

00:45:04   because their card was rejected.

00:45:05   But anyway, we can't all be winners.

00:45:07   That's life.

00:45:08   - Wow.

00:45:11   - That's super chipper.

00:45:12   And then a final bit of follow up,

00:45:15   just to remind everyone that ATP shirts

00:45:18   are indeed available.

00:45:20   There have been a lot of people

00:45:22   who have already bought them,

00:45:23   which we are all extremely thankful for,

00:45:25   and that is very kind of all of you.

00:45:27   Marco or Jon, I'm not sure which one of you

00:45:29   happens to have this up,

00:45:30   but do you want to talk about,

00:45:32   speaking of shaming Casey,

00:45:34   do you wanna talk about what the breakdown is

00:45:36   of shirts thus far?

00:45:37   - Yeah, sure.

00:45:38   I mean, so you can go into campaigns,

00:45:40   you can see this is not private information. If you just go to each one of the campaigns,

00:45:43   you can see how many we've sold. And so the regular shirt, the middle one, we've sold

00:45:50   about 600. The sport, we've sold 216. And the edition, we've sold 108. What's interesting

00:46:00   and the reason why I think Apple made the Apple Watch Edition is that even though we

00:46:06   we have sold roughly a sixth as many editions as we've sold the regular ones, it's making

00:46:10   almost half the profit compared to the regular ones. So that's why the edition exists and

00:46:16   the Apple Watch lineup I'm pretty sure.

00:46:18   Well and the edition is much more than like our edition is twice the price of the shirt.

00:46:22   The Apple Watch edition is more than twice the price of the Apple Watch.

00:46:26   Yeah, by a lot. Yeah, it's yeah.

00:46:28   So we don't know what's going to do their demand curve like at a certain point it starts

00:46:31   that you get diminishing returns, but yeah.

00:46:34   Apparently a lot of people are willing to pay $50

00:46:37   for a t-shirt with gold colored foil on it.

00:46:40   - Yeah, and we could've, the reason we didn't charge more,

00:46:42   I got a couple people saying you should've charged more,

00:46:44   and we thought about it for the joke value,

00:46:46   I think it would've been funnier if we charged more,

00:46:48   but the reason we didn't is because

00:46:50   we knew some people would buy it.

00:46:52   And I didn't wanna be responsible for somebody

00:46:55   having spent like $100 or $200 on a t-shirt.

00:46:58   - Yeah, like we would be doing it like,

00:47:00   How high can we price it?

00:47:01   Like, would it be funny to price it so high

00:47:03   that we know nobody's gonna buy it?

00:47:04   Or like the three people would buy it?

00:47:06   And bottom line, I'm gonna buy

00:47:09   one of these edition things too.

00:47:10   I'm gonna buy one for my wife.

00:47:11   So I'm buying my own stupid $50 T-shirt myself.

00:47:14   - I bought two.

00:47:15   Yep, one for me, one for Tiff,

00:47:16   and one each of the regular, the shirt edition as well.

00:47:20   Or not the edition, oh, the collection.

00:47:22   God, these terms.

00:47:23   - So the loser shirt out of this.

00:47:25   You gave the breakdowns for ATP shirt, ATP shirt sport,

00:47:29   - An ATP shirt edition, but remember that ATP shirt sport

00:47:32   comes in two different styles

00:47:33   that have two different ink colors on it,

00:47:35   and that Teespring requires two separate campaigns

00:47:37   if you have two different ink colors.

00:47:39   So, ATP shirt sport comes in blue for a men's version,

00:47:42   and white for a women's version.

00:47:44   And the white women's ATP shirt sport

00:47:47   has sold a grand total of three.

00:47:49   - And for the first few days, it sold zero.

00:47:52   - Yeah, it sold zero for a long time.

00:47:54   Is it because it's white and people don't like white?

00:47:56   Is it because a lot of women don't want an ATP shirt or don't listen to the show?

00:48:03   I don't think we can get a breakdown.

00:48:05   There's women's versions of all the other shirts as well.

00:48:07   I don't think we can get a breakdown of how many of those are sold.

00:48:10   Maybe when it's over we can find out.

00:48:12   That white sport shirt is just not popular.

00:48:15   It has sold three, which means that they're going to print it because I think three is

00:48:18   the minimum.

00:48:19   So the three lonely people who ordered the white women's shirt, you will get your shirts,

00:48:23   but boy, not a good seller.

00:48:25   All right, so here's the thing, kids. If you want to continue to encourage Marco to think that he's always right about everything, don't buy white shirts.

00:48:32   But if you'd like Marco to be taken down a peg, do me a favor. Do all of us a favor. Buy yourself a white shirt.

00:48:40   And it's a white women's shirt, by the way, so feel free to buy it. You don't have to be a woman to buy it, but be aware of what you're buying.

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00:52:16   - All right, so we put off for the last week or two,

00:52:20   but the time has come.

00:52:22   We should probably talk about photos for OS X.

00:52:25   - I realized listening to last week's show

00:52:27   that we keep talking about photos,

00:52:29   and we mean the application whose name is Photos,

00:52:33   that also happens to deal with photos.

00:52:35   And you know, when I'm saying it,

00:52:37   sometimes I'm saying it with a capital P,

00:52:38   sometimes we're saying it with a lowercase P.

00:52:40   It's another great name from the company

00:52:42   that brought you the mail application that's called mail.

00:52:46   And the notes application that's called notes

00:52:47   and the calendar-- - And contacts.

00:52:49   - That's called calendar and yes, so on and so forth.

00:52:52   - It'd be like naming a magazine the magazine.

00:52:54   - Yeah, seriously.

00:52:55   So. - Anyway.

00:52:59   - Who among us has been using photos

00:53:01   for anything other than launching the empty application

00:53:04   with nothing in it?

00:53:05   - I have, Casey.

00:53:07   - Nope.

00:53:08   - Really?

00:53:09   Have you imported anything into it?

00:53:10   No?

00:53:11   - Nope, nope, I have not touched it.

00:53:12   Every time it comes up, when I put in my SD card

00:53:15   for my camera, I immediately quit and walk away.

00:53:18   - Well, so you have launched it though then.

00:53:19   - Well, it's launched itself.

00:53:21   I haven't knowingly done it.

00:53:22   The reason I haven't touched it is because I've heard

00:53:25   just barely enough horror stories

00:53:27   that I don't wanna go anywhere near it.

00:53:28   And I suspect that the horror stories are one in a million.

00:53:33   I suspect that in some, but not all cases,

00:53:36   it was user error.

00:53:37   But actually just earlier today,

00:53:40   Stephen Hackett was talking to all of us

00:53:42   about how he was having some problems with it.

00:53:44   And yes, I could back up everything 35 more times,

00:53:48   but it's just, this is not a problem that I have in my life

00:53:52   that I feel like photos should or could solve.

00:53:56   - Well, so what are you using instead then?

00:53:58   So in terms of backup, I have photos on my personal machine, I have them duplicated to

00:54:07   the Synology, and then also Time Machine and Crash Plan and Picture Life.

00:54:13   And so between all of those things, I have it, I hope, pretty well covered.

00:54:18   And I freaking love Picture Life.

00:54:21   It's very much like Everpix was before it passed away, let it rest in peace.

00:54:25   And Picture Life does everything I think I need, so I'm going to be listening very intently,

00:54:32   no sarcasm intended, because I would be curious to hear what photos would do that Picture

00:54:37   Life wouldn't do for me.

00:54:38   So you just have the pictures in folders and there's no Mac application?

00:54:44   That's correct.

00:54:45   So how do you like look at your... after you take your pictures on your camera, you plug

00:54:48   your camera into your computer, it slurps them all down into the whatever Picture Life,

00:54:51   but like do you get to see them or do anything with them?

00:54:54   Yeah, so the workflow is I put the SD card in the computer, I go through and I don't--it's

00:54:59   extremely rare that I do any sort of post-processing, but I'll go through and I'll delete the ones that I know are just crap.

00:55:05   I'll delete any raw files that I think I'll never need again and will inevitably regret having deleted.

00:55:10   And then I will run them through a script that I tweaked that Dr. Drang wrote that

00:55:18   will file them into folders by year, then month, and then rename the files so they're named by

00:55:25   entire date including timestamp. The only other thing I'll do that's even vaguely like post-processing is I have some scripts

00:55:32   which I believe I again stole from Dr. Drang that will add geolocation information to them.

00:55:38   But basically what I do is I go through them, delete the ones

00:55:42   I don't want, add geotags if I need to, and then have the script slurp them and file them away, and then Picture Life

00:55:48   automatically finds them and uploads them.

00:55:50   - So when do you look at them?

00:55:51   Do you look at them after Picture Life pulls them up?

00:55:54   Do you open the Picture Life app on your phone or something

00:55:57   or go to the website or?

00:55:58   - No, I mean, I could, but generally speaking,

00:56:00   I look at them as I'm going through all of them

00:56:01   to see which ones I want, which ones I don't want.

00:56:03   - What do you mean as you're going through it,

00:56:04   like in the finder?

00:56:05   - Yeah.

00:56:06   - Using Quick Look to look at them?

00:56:08   - That's right.

00:56:09   (laughing)

00:56:12   - That's a hell of a, I mean, well, jeez.

00:56:14   Yeah, I guess that'll work, I mean.

00:56:16   I'm not saying this is the right way of doing things,

00:56:19   and please, I'm not looking for any answers

00:56:22   other than this app.

00:56:24   So whatever you're going to recommend,

00:56:26   I appreciate it, but it's okay.

00:56:28   I'm okay the way it is.

00:56:31   But I am curious to hear what photos would do for me,

00:56:33   and I'm not saying you won't.

00:56:34   I'm not saying that sarcastically.

00:56:36   I mean that genuinely.

00:56:37   I'm curious to hear what photos would do for me

00:56:38   to make this experience better.

00:56:40   - Yeah, that's fair.

00:56:42   I mean, it really depends a lot

00:56:44   on how you wanna browse your photos.

00:56:45   I mean, for me, my big problem that I've always had

00:56:49   with photo apps is that you had to choose

00:56:52   like good performance, good editing controls,

00:56:57   and integration with iOS devices.

00:57:00   And you had to choose between those things

00:57:02   and you couldn't have all three of those.

00:57:03   You could have at most two, you know,

00:57:06   kind of like the project management triangle.

00:57:07   Like you could have at most two.

00:57:09   And photos actually hits all three

00:57:12   and it is the first thing to have good iOS integration.

00:57:16   iPhoto and Aperture never did.

00:57:18   PhotoStream was never good.

00:57:20   PhotoStream was always like a half solution

00:57:23   that was almost dangerous in how much it didn't cover

00:57:26   and how it didn't work.

00:57:29   PhotoStream was just a nightmare of confusion

00:57:33   and misled expectations of how it worked

00:57:38   and what it did and what it didn't do.

00:57:40   This is the solution, but the photo app,

00:57:43   we'll talk about the app separately in a second,

00:57:45   but just the whole concept of the photos in the cloud thing,

00:57:47   I think that, this is like the cloud photo service

00:57:50   that we have been begging Apple to make,

00:57:53   'cause we knew that no one else could really have

00:57:55   the integration into iOS devices the way Apple does.

00:57:59   And we've been begging Apple to make this for years,

00:58:01   and we all thought they never would, and then they did.

00:58:04   And it seems like the cloud component

00:58:07   actually works pretty well.

00:58:08   I mean, I too have heard a couple of horror stories

00:58:12   here and there, but it sounds like the problem

00:58:14   is not in the cloud necessarily.

00:58:17   It's either like, Stephen's story sounds like

00:58:19   the app corrupted itself a little bit,

00:58:21   it's local database.

00:58:22   - Yeah, I think so.

00:58:23   - I've heard a couple of people who said that

00:58:25   the import didn't import some large chunk of their files,

00:58:29   and those are both serious problems for sure,

00:58:31   but those are very unlikely to be cloud related.

00:58:34   So I think it's safe to say so far with what we've seen,

00:58:37   So far it looks like the cloud part of this

00:58:41   is quite good actually.

00:58:43   It seems to be working and it's all built on like Azure

00:58:47   and Amazon Web Services and stuff as far as we know.

00:58:49   So it should scale properly, it should scale okay.

00:58:53   I mean there's already tons of people importing

00:58:56   massive back catalogs of photos into it

00:58:58   all within the last couple of weeks or within a short time.

00:59:01   And it seems to be doing pretty well.

00:59:04   So overall it seems like the cloud part is fine.

00:59:07   it seemed like the cloud part works.

00:59:09   And that's impressive, that's a very, very

00:59:11   impressive accomplishment right there.

00:59:13   We'll talk about the pricing in a bit,

00:59:15   but functionally it seemed like the cloud part works.

00:59:18   The app is certainly up for debate.

00:59:22   I would say this is definitely not

00:59:24   a replacement for Aperture.

00:59:26   The way that Apple kind of wedged it and said,

00:59:30   "Oh well, we're gonna stop working on Aperture now,"

00:59:32   even though we were kind of never really working on it

00:59:35   that much, but we're gonna stop working on it

00:59:37   for real this time.

00:59:38   And it, you know, that's less good for Aperture users.

00:59:44   I'm coming from Lightroom and I used to use Aperture

00:59:46   and then before that I used iPhoto.

00:59:49   And what I always wanted in iPhoto is just like

00:59:54   the nice simple management that iPhoto offers.

00:59:56   I never wanted the really complicated like filing system

01:00:01   and management and keywording and everything.

01:00:04   I never wanted that part of what Aperture offered

01:00:06   or light room. I really just wanted i photo with better

01:00:10   editing controls and that's what this is. That's what it

01:00:14   feels like a total rewrite of i photo for for the new

01:00:18   generation of everything total. It's like i photo x, you know

01:00:21   like or ten, but however you however you pronounce it for

01:00:24   software like this. That's not the operating system. It does

01:00:28   feel like that it's the the modern version of i photo with

01:00:32   really good editing controls and it does things that I

01:00:35   wouldn't have guessed they would have done. Like for example, it is doing

01:00:38   lossless editing on those adjustments and then it syncs the adjustment values

01:00:43   to your iOS devices. So you can like adjust the brightness on one device and

01:00:48   then you can like go to a different device and keep adjusting the brightness

01:00:51   and it's basing it on the same base image. It isn't like baking it into the

01:00:54   image or making a copy and doing that. Like it's doing it properly. It's doing

01:00:58   what you what you would want it to do. So from all that perspective, this seems

01:01:04   exactly what I wanted and I'm so far I've used it very little so far I

01:01:09   imported my whole library but I've done very little editing in it I browsed a

01:01:14   little bit the browsing interfaces is nice there I have you know some wishlist

01:01:17   items here and there for like you know different views or sorting options or

01:01:20   whatever but for the most part it's minor stuff overall I'm pretty impressed

01:01:24   with it it seems like they took a very big problem that nobody has fully solved

01:01:30   and solved it in exactly the way that is probably

01:01:34   gonna be best for me at least,

01:01:36   and probably a lot of other people.

01:01:39   - All right.

01:01:40   (laughing)

01:01:41   - So are you gonna ever give it a shot, you think,

01:01:43   or are you gonna wait a long time, if ever?

01:01:45   - I think I'm gonna wait between a medium and a long time.

01:01:50   I did hear, and I heard a couple of horror stories

01:01:53   which were like 12th hand information

01:01:54   about large deletions that happened.

01:01:58   Again, when you have as many customers as Apple does, this is inevitably going to happen.

01:02:02   No software is perfect, but especially since I'm a new dad, and even though I have all

01:02:08   my photos in, what did I say, quadruplicate or whatever, I'm scared to mess with this

01:02:17   stuff.

01:02:18   Additionally, one of the things that I've made a critical part of my workflow, which

01:02:24   which is what I described earlier by tagging,

01:02:26   geotagging all my pictures that are taken

01:02:28   with my Micro Four Thirds camera.

01:02:30   Part of the reason I've done that is because

01:02:32   Picture Life does a really good job of allowing you

01:02:34   to search for photos by location.

01:02:37   And I believe it was Unconnected that they said that

01:02:39   it isn't possible to geotag pictures today

01:02:42   with the Photos app, I don't think.

01:02:44   Obviously I've not used it, so this is me going out

01:02:47   on a limb, but I believe that's what they said.

01:02:49   - I think that's right, but I mean, again,

01:02:51   this is a 1.0, really.

01:02:53   Like it is officially like, you know,

01:02:55   the next version of iPhoto and Aperture,

01:02:57   but really it's a 1.0.

01:02:58   It feels like a total ground up rewrite.

01:03:01   So it would not surprise me if things like,

01:03:04   and it will obey geotags that are already embedded

01:03:06   in the files, but it won't let you modify them afterwards.

01:03:09   And you know, that's the kind of thing

01:03:10   I can see them changing later, you know,

01:03:12   adding a feature later.

01:03:13   So that's not a huge deal for me.

01:03:15   And also most of the photos I shoot

01:03:17   are with my iPhone anyway, so it's already geotagged.

01:03:20   So, you know, again, it depends on how you use it.

01:03:22   And one thing I like about it from a paranoia perspective is when we first heard about this

01:03:29   app, you know, almost a year ago, I tell you what you see last year, when we first heard

01:03:33   about it, we talked about it on the show and I had expressed a concern of, you know, I

01:03:38   don't want, I don't want the only copies, the only master copies to be in the cloud.

01:03:43   I want, I want a local app that just has files sitting in the file system that I can then

01:03:48   back up and I can restore if necessary or adjust and that's

01:03:53   what this offers. It is very similar to iPhoto in that it

01:03:56   has a package, which is just a directory. It has a package

01:04:01   that inside that package of its database is just all your

01:04:05   files and they're not organized in any particular useful way,

01:04:08   but they're all there. And so if you ever had to reorganize

01:04:11   them, you could you can order them by their exit dates and

01:04:15   and it'd be fine. So that is all there. I import things into it by dumping a bunch

01:04:20   of files on it. There's nothing saying I couldn't do the same thing again if I

01:04:23   ever had to like start fresh. If there's something ever got corrupted, I had to

01:04:25   like delete all of my photos from iCloud and start over again. It looks like I'd

01:04:30   be able to do that just fine with my regular backup system that I have and I

01:04:34   have this Mac sitting here with all the files on it. It also gives me, you know,

01:04:37   the the options it has for reducing local disk space usage. That is really

01:04:43   string from a backup perspective because you could, for instance, have a Mac Mini

01:04:48   in your house somewhere in your closet or somewhere or at work that has enough

01:04:54   disk space on it that you could have that be a second client and have that

01:04:59   backup your entire library to itself and then maybe on your main computer if you

01:05:03   get a new computer with an SSD in it that maybe you don't maybe don't have

01:05:06   space for all your photos or you don't want to buy the terabyte SSD for a

01:05:09   thousand bucks or whatever, then maybe you can have your

01:05:12   main computer not have all the originals on it and you have

01:05:15   some other some other Mac that is logged in and is backed up

01:05:19   in its own way like with backblaze or whatever have

01:05:22   that logged in and be backed up somewhere else that can have a

01:05:24   big slow disk in it and have that not be part of your main

01:05:27   computer anymore. I can see that especially being helpful

01:05:29   for laptop users. So the options this gives you are for

01:05:34   for geeks like us who want control over the files are

01:05:36   actually pretty good.

01:05:38   Yeah, I am impressed by them.

01:05:40   And one of the things that makes me want to try it,

01:05:44   as much as I am very reticent to do so,

01:05:47   is I'm probably going to be upgrading

01:05:50   my three or four-year-old personal machine,

01:05:53   which is a 15-inch Retina MacBook Pro,

01:05:55   or not Retina, excuse me, 15-inch Hi-Rez MacBook Pro.

01:05:59   I'm looking at upgrading that

01:06:01   to probably a new 15-inch machine sometime soon.

01:06:04   And this thing has, I think, a 750-gig hard drive in it.

01:06:08   and I don't have an overabundance of free space on it.

01:06:11   And that's in part because I have all 118 gigs

01:06:15   of photos and videos as per picture life on it.

01:06:18   And it does sound really awesome to be able to buy

01:06:22   a computer that maybe doesn't have a tremendous SSD in it,

01:06:26   yet still have access to all my photos

01:06:28   as though they were there.

01:06:29   And I would choose a strategy much like

01:06:31   what you're saying Marco,

01:06:32   I'd probably leave the one I have today,

01:06:34   downloading all of them and operating as a backup

01:06:37   and then have my main machine just grab whatever

01:06:40   one's photo sees fit.

01:06:41   So in terms of what they're promising,

01:06:44   it genuinely does sound really, really good.

01:06:46   And I am very impressed by it.

01:06:48   I don't know.

01:06:49   Do we want to talk about pricing?

01:06:50   Or Jon, you've been very quiet.

01:06:51   Do you have thoughts about this?

01:06:53   No, it's just listening to what you guys were doing.

01:06:56   I think I talked about this before,

01:06:58   that I was going to be cautious about this.

01:07:00   I didn't install any of the betas.

01:07:01   I didn't enable iCloud photo library

01:07:03   when that was in beta in iOS or anything like that.

01:07:06   I just stayed away from it. But when all the reviews came out for the Photos app, I read

01:07:11   all of them and talked to some of the people who wrote them and asked questions and investigated.

01:07:16   And the thing that made me decide when the official version was released to dive in and

01:07:23   do it and import my real library was the way that it does the imports. If you have an existing

01:07:27   iPhoto library, it will... I have an existing iPhoto library, it's on an external 500GB

01:07:35   SSD, the library itself is around 260, 270 gigs.

01:07:42   I can't duplicate that library and still fit on the disk, but the way it does it if you

01:07:45   have an existing library is it doesn't duplicate the files, it just makes hard links to all

01:07:48   the files, which does not increase the disk space for them, it just references them.

01:07:54   And once you do that, once you do a full import, A) it should go faster because it's not actually

01:07:58   copying 260 gigs of memory, it's just making a bunch of hard links and writing a bunch

01:08:02   of metadata or whatever.

01:08:03   B, after you do that, you've got your iPhoto library still completely unmodified.

01:08:08   You could launch iPhoto and it would still just be right there.

01:08:10   And you've got your photos library, which in the beginning is an exact copy of your

01:08:14   iPhoto library, with some other caveats I'll get to in a little bit.

01:08:19   And then if you start using photos, you will slowly diverge.

01:08:23   The photos library will start changing, you'll add new photos to it, you'll make modifications.

01:08:26   Those modifications won't be reflected in the iPhoto library.

01:08:29   If I was to go back in time and modify a picture from three years ago, I would get a private

01:08:34   copy.

01:08:35   It's copy on write.

01:08:36   I would get a private copy in the photos library.

01:08:38   So the way this is done, the fact that I don't have to double my disk space, that I can start

01:08:42   from where I left off in iPhotos, and that I could essentially bail at any time, just

01:08:47   sort of export the photos that I imported into the photos app after the transfer process,

01:08:54   and then throw away the photos library, and then just reimport those into iPhoto if I

01:08:57   wanted to go back.

01:08:58   What Casey doesn't have to deal with, but what I have to deal with is the idea that

01:09:04   you know, iPhoto is gone, iPhoto is dead.

01:09:06   I used iPhoto since its introduction as my way to deal with photos with a couple of brief

01:09:10   side trips into Aperture when it could read your iPhoto library and stuff.

01:09:13   And I looked at Lightroom and stuff like that.

01:09:15   But I have an investment in this program and metadata and everything, and if it's dead,

01:09:21   I need to get on the thing that is going to replace it, and sooner is better than later.

01:09:26   I have a lot of problems with live photo. It's just that it is really on its last leg

01:09:30   So I was hoping that photos would solve these problems for me. So I did the import

01:09:34   It was a little bit weird because what it initially does it wants to make a new photos library

01:09:39   And it wants to make it on my main disk and that's no good because this is on the MacBook Air

01:09:43   It's got a tiny little SSD in it

01:09:45   So I had to dissuade it from you know

01:09:48   I had to make it open a new library delete the little library that it made and then I had to make the

01:09:53   The second library like you launch with the option key down and pick a different library

01:09:56   I had to make that the quote-unquote system library because if you don't do that

01:09:59   Then all of your photo stream stuff will only go into the system library

01:10:03   So for a little while I have like my external library on the external drive

01:10:06   But the system library was that new little empty one. That's where all the streams are going. So that was a little bit confusing

01:10:10   I'm not confusing like I could figure out what was going on

01:10:15   But I figure if someone else was using this they would be confused about why they're not getting anyway

01:10:19   Maybe they would want to have multiple drives

01:10:20   But bottom line is I could get to the point where I wanted it

01:10:23   I imported my library which took a really really really long time way longer than I thought it should take if since it's not actually

01:10:29   copying the data

01:10:30   And during it it's like while you wait why not take a tour of the photos application

01:10:35   And there's no way in hell. I was clicking that thing to take a tour of the most like

01:10:38   I'm not touching this computer until it's done importing. I don't want to do anything to perturb the program

01:10:43   I don't know what kind of slideshow

01:10:45   introduction thing it's gonna do but that is the last thing I want is that to crash the app lines in the middle of my

01:10:50   Import so did you open any other windows?

01:10:52   Just let it sit there and it took just a tremendous amount of time. This is not uploading to iCloud forget about I go

01:10:58   This is just merely like importing my photos library. It's like

01:11:00   67,000 photos or something

01:11:04   260 270 gigs there are some videos mixed in there, but not too many

01:11:08   So I let it do all that and then the next thing was like if there's settings that the market was talking about you can say

01:11:15   Do you want me to keep all the photos on your Mac? Yes

01:11:18   I definitely did because it's the whole point like I want them to be there

01:11:20   I want to get backed up and all that other stuff

01:11:22   The interesting thing that was the time machine I think was smart enough

01:11:27   Not to like time machine knows that they're hard links it understands them or whatever

01:11:31   So it is not as if time machines like oh my goodness. I have 260 new gigs to back up

01:11:35   No, it doesn't it doesn't have it

01:11:36   Just you know that that the use space on my external disk did not grow up go up by that much

01:11:41   It just had like its little database in the metadata and stuff and then the photos as they were so the time machine backup caught

01:11:46   up pretty quickly

01:11:48   and

01:11:49   I

01:11:51   Turned on the iCloud thing of course I had to buy more iCloud storage

01:11:53   And we'll talk about storage pricing a little bit. I did that I bought enough storage to fit all my stuff

01:11:57   Which is I bought 500 gigs of storage

01:11:59   And then I let it upload and the uploading

01:12:02   It's a weird like it shows a progress bar on the preferences window

01:12:06   But every time I launched the preferences window the progress bar started from zero kind of and the other part of it

01:12:10   that wasn't in the preferences window said uploading,

01:12:15   you know, X thousand photos.

01:12:16   In the beginning it said uploading 67,000 photos

01:12:18   and the number would go down

01:12:19   and then it would say uploading 50,000,

01:12:21   uploading 49,000.

01:12:22   Like that's a weird way to show progress.

01:12:23   Like I understand what it's getting at,

01:12:25   but what's wrong with a progress bar guys?

01:12:27   Like, you know, if you didn't know that it started at 60,000

01:12:30   you wouldn't know you were half done

01:12:31   when it said uploading 30,000.

01:12:33   Anyway, it took like two days to upload all my photos.

01:12:36   It was not using all of my connection

01:12:37   This has been a big complaint with people who have smaller upload pipes that the photos app will just use as much upload

01:12:45   Bandwidth as you have and like if you saturate your upload bandwidth, it makes your experience doing anything else really miserable

01:12:51   There is an option in preferences to say stop uploading

01:12:55   It's like pause for a day is the only button

01:12:57   But like that's not a great option if it's noon and the thing is destroying your upload pipe and you do pause for a day

01:13:02   All you've done is scheduled for it to destroy your upload pipe tomorrow at noon

01:13:07   Again, I didn't have that problem because it was not using my entire upload pipe not even close and I got like 35 megabits up

01:13:12   And it was maybe using two three or four. I don't know. I guess I could figure it out took about 48 hours to go

01:13:17   It was not even sometimes it went really fast. Sometimes it went slow

01:13:20   I've heard from people who have looked at the traffic going over the wire that it was uploading directly to Amazon s3

01:13:26   Like not going to Apple servers. It was going to you know, something s3 Amazon comm we're just fine

01:13:33   I don't care where the hell it is. Like as long as it's uploaded somewhere, you know

01:13:36   I don't need to know the implementation details

01:13:37   for people wondering, I've heard reports of that,

01:13:40   but I didn't check it myself.

01:13:42   After it uploaded everything, I had to look at like,

01:13:45   what has it done to my iPhoto library?

01:13:47   'Cause I put a lot of time into my photo library.

01:13:50   I talked about my rating system and my key wording.

01:13:52   I keyword for people in my family.

01:13:55   I do ratings as a series of filtering.

01:13:57   Three stars or higher are the good ones.

01:13:59   Anything below that is bad.

01:14:00   One star usually should be deleted.

01:14:02   Very few four and five stars.

01:14:05   I'm not surprised at all.

01:14:06   Me neither.

01:14:07   It's a threshold.

01:14:08   It's exactly the same thing I do for iTunes.

01:14:10   It's more of a thresholding system.

01:14:12   I want to say, what are the good photos?

01:14:14   If, for example, we're making a calendar, which we do,

01:14:16   like we use the websites that let you make a calendar

01:14:18   with pictures of your family on it,

01:14:20   I immediately go to pictures from last year, three stars

01:14:23   or more.

01:14:24   Those are the good ones.

01:14:25   Those are the ones even worth looking at.

01:14:27   And then the one star is periodically,

01:14:28   when I get space tight, I just go,

01:14:30   let me see all the one stars, and I'll delete them.

01:14:32   Photos doesn't do that.

01:14:35   Photos has favorite or not favorite.

01:14:37   A favorite uses a star, not favorite has no star.

01:14:40   So it is a very binary filtering system,

01:14:42   which is kind of in keeping with how I was using it.

01:14:44   Like the three star was the threshold.

01:14:46   So how the hell does it import my library

01:14:48   where they were all rated?

01:14:49   Well, it still has keywords

01:14:51   and it makes a one star keyword,

01:14:53   two, it says like one space star, two space star.

01:14:56   Those are keywords.

01:14:58   And it puts keywords on all my one, two,

01:15:00   and three star rated ones, which is fine

01:15:01   because then it still lets me sort by one, two, and three star,

01:15:04   but now I have to make a choice.

01:15:05   I could continue rating them one, two, and three star

01:15:08   by using the one, two, three, four, and five star keywords,

01:15:11   or I could just abandon that

01:15:12   and just go with the favoriting system.

01:15:13   And I've decided that I'm just going to go forward

01:15:16   and use it the favoriting system.

01:15:17   So what I basically did was took anything

01:15:19   that is three, four, or five stars

01:15:20   and put an official photos fave on it.

01:15:23   And that's what I'm gonna do going forward.

01:15:25   Now I'll leave the keyword ratings on all the other ones,

01:15:28   but I'm not gonna try to maintain my one through five,

01:15:32   which means I won't really have a good way to,

01:15:34   I guess I could still label the one star ones

01:15:36   one star if I wanted, but I don't know.

01:15:38   - You should just delete them.

01:15:40   - Yeah, I mean, that's what, basically I do.

01:15:41   Like there aren't really many one stars in there.

01:15:43   Like one star means like it's out of focus or something

01:15:45   and they eventually get deleted.

01:15:46   So there's not really many of them hanging around.

01:15:47   Like when I go through, I basically delete all the one star

01:15:49   or I decide to upgrade one of the two.

01:15:51   I think, well, it's not that bad or whatever.

01:15:54   So the import went okay.

01:15:55   Some of my smart albums didn't quite work

01:15:58   because some of the smart albums,

01:15:59   like it doesn't have, you know, to do like nested logic,

01:16:02   like where you can make a smart thing

01:16:04   and then have another thing references another smart thing.

01:16:06   It doesn't have like nested Boolean logic.

01:16:07   It just has one level of logic.

01:16:08   And some of my smart albums didn't work

01:16:10   because the logic required a feature

01:16:12   that only existed in iPhoto.

01:16:13   So I lost a little bit, but my manual albums worked

01:16:16   and my simple smart albums were ported over correctly.

01:16:18   The faces were more or less ported over the keywords.

01:16:21   So that went okay.

01:16:24   The upload went okay.

01:16:25   But here's where the rubber really hits the road

01:16:27   this app. The problem I had with iPhoto was that it basically came down to at this point

01:16:34   performance, in all aspects of performance. The app took a year and a day to launch. You'd

01:16:40   launch it, this is also an all SSD, keep in mind this is a very fast external SSD connected

01:16:44   with FireWire 800 or an internal SSD, didn't matter. Took forever to launch. You'd sit

01:16:50   there and see a spinner for a long time, might as well just go away and come back later.

01:16:54   it launched, pretty much everything you did in the app was slow.

01:16:58   Scrolling was slow.

01:16:59   The thing I most commonly do is basically you plug in a camera, import photos.

01:17:03   After I import photos, I want to go through them and rate them and keyword them or whatever,

01:17:08   basically just to look at them.

01:17:10   Go to full screen mode, because I figure that'll be easier on the application.

01:17:12   Full screen, not to worry about anything else.

01:17:14   Use the arrow key to advance from one photo to the next.

01:17:17   Use keyboard shortcuts to rate them and stuff like that.

01:17:20   workflow right arrow command R to rotate command 2 command 3 command 4 to rate right arrow

01:17:28   was just so incredibly sluggish like super slow going into full screen mode was slow

01:17:33   hitting the right arrow to go to the next photo seemed like it took a seven second delay

01:17:36   sometimes it's like what are you even doing sometimes the photo would come in it was still

01:17:40   blurry and then it would put in the full res super slow so I'm like everyone says photos

01:17:43   is great it should be way faster key wording like I do command 1 command 2 command 3 or

01:17:49   You can only keyword if you weren't in full screen mode and you had the keyword palette

01:17:52   available then you do single keystrokes of like F for family and like you'd select a

01:17:56   bunch of photos, you'd click one, shift click on another, hit F for family and like three

01:18:01   seconds later the UI would catch up with you like oh you shift clicked okay I'll select

01:18:04   this range oh I'll make a little keyword thing flash on the screen.

01:18:06   It just felt like molasses.

01:18:09   So this is what I was hoping photos aside from all the cloud stuff I was hoping that

01:18:12   it would help the workflow of like the things that I do.

01:18:15   photos, go through them, rate them, keyword them, or just go through them and browse.

01:18:21   And I guess scrolling, but I do a little bit less scrolling.

01:18:23   So I set everything up in Photos, and one of the first things I did was grab the little

01:18:28   scroll bar and scroll up and down.

01:18:30   That works alright.

01:18:31   67,000 photos, you don't expect it to be that fast.

01:18:34   Keep in mind this is a 2011 MacBook Air with 4GB of RAM, so that probably doesn't help

01:18:38   much.

01:18:39   Oh my gosh, yeah.

01:18:40   But it did alright.

01:18:42   I'm willing to give it a pass for things that I think a lack of RAM explains.

01:18:49   So I imported some photos into it, and the importing was a little bit weird and confusing

01:18:54   and the UI is not great, I had to bring the sidebar back to see my camera but it mounted

01:18:58   as a no-name card thing and whatever.

01:19:01   It was difficult for me to find some stuff, it's a very sparse UI but it's a 1.0.

01:19:06   Imported all the photos, go into full screen mode, and then just start trying to do right

01:19:10   arrow, rate, keyboard, right arrow, rate, keyword.

01:19:13   Still slow, and I don't understand why it's so slow.

01:19:15   I'm just, there's one photo on the screen, I'm gonna hit the right arrow key, I want

01:19:19   you to show me the next photo.

01:19:20   I don't need you to keep every single one of my photos in memory, I don't think the

01:19:24   lack of RAM is making that slow, but something is, and I just want it to be snappy.

01:19:29   I assume that it is snappy if you have 10 photos or 1000 or even 10,000.

01:19:33   I don't know where the threshold is, where this app just starts to fall down, but whatever

01:19:39   Whatever it is, I'm past it.

01:19:40   So is it worse than iPhoto?

01:19:41   No, it's not worse than iPhoto in terms of performance.

01:19:43   It's probably a little bit better.

01:19:45   Launching still takes a long time.

01:19:46   Doing all those actions that I was describing took a long time.

01:19:50   Maybe keywording is actually slower in photos than it was.

01:19:53   Click one photo, shift click onto the next one, label for my kid's name or whatever.

01:19:58   Maybe that's actually slower in photos, but it's close-ish.

01:20:01   So I did not get the big performance boost that I was hoping.

01:20:04   Again, this is a 1.0.

01:20:08   Maybe it's a RAM limit.

01:20:09   Maybe I should actually try it on my Mac that has 16 gigs of RAM and see if it does any

01:20:12   better.

01:20:14   So that aspect of it is kind of a wash.

01:20:16   But I feel relatively okay with the safety of the things.

01:20:19   Again because my entire iPhoto library is still there, still being backed up.

01:20:22   And my photos library is slowly diverging from it.

01:20:24   I have for now not been deleting the pictures off my camera when I import them.

01:20:29   So I have like yet another backup.

01:20:30   Like if I have a catastrophe I still have my old iPhoto library and I can just reimport

01:20:34   everything from my camera.

01:20:35   At a certain point my card on my camera will fill up so I'll have to revisit that.

01:20:39   But I'd say so far so okay for the experience of using it.

01:20:46   And the cloud sync stuff, that's the other part that people are complaining about.

01:20:49   So this is my wife's computer.

01:20:51   Hers is the photo computer.

01:20:52   That brings up the next big problem, which is like they haven't really solved the photo

01:20:55   problem because the larger problem is we have photos that belong to our family.

01:20:59   Like the 67,000 photos, they're not my photos.

01:21:02   They're not my wife's photos.

01:21:03   They're not my children's photos.

01:21:04   They're our photos collectively.

01:21:06   We have a family set up in the Apple iCloud family thing or whatever.

01:21:11   But to do this photos thing, we have to pick an Apple ID.

01:21:14   So it's my wife's Apple ID.

01:21:17   She's signed into her Apple ID on her phone, obviously, because it's her phone, and this

01:21:20   is her computer and she's logged into her account.

01:21:23   So when we import this thing and turn on the iCloud photo library, the 500 gigs of iCloud

01:21:26   storage, that's her storage, right?

01:21:28   Which means on her phone, she has access to all 67,000 photos, which is amazing, right?

01:21:32   Obviously, they're not all on the phone.

01:21:33   It does all the storage stuff, yada, yada.

01:21:35   But it's pretty amazing that you can, in theory, scroll back to the early 2000s or the 90s

01:21:40   and just tap on a photo and eventually it will download and you can see it.

01:21:43   Love it.

01:21:44   Great, right?

01:21:45   I can't see any of those photos in my phone, even though they're just as much my photos

01:21:47   as her photos, right?

01:21:50   There's no way to sort of share the entire photo library with the family.

01:21:53   Now there is a family section where anything you put in that album is shared with anybody

01:21:57   in your family group, but there's no way to automatically share the entire library.

01:22:01   You have to manually add things, stuff to the family collection.

01:22:03   Or of course you can make a shared photo stream and sign up individual people to it

01:22:06   But there's no way to basically say this is the family's photo library

01:22:10   I want everyone to see it Apple has not solved that problem yet or tackled it

01:22:14   They've only made it so that you can share subsets of photos manually with different groups of people, which is great

01:22:17   It's good that you can do that. We use that all the time to share pictures with relatives, but it's not like I'm going to

01:22:22   Manually drag every every single photo in my library into the family thing and then manually drag every new thing

01:22:27   Into there because then I would have because I have my own iPhone library on my Mac which has nothing in it

01:22:33   and on my phone, so if I take a picture with my phone,

01:22:36   it shows up in my photo library, not in the family one,

01:22:38   and it's just not working the way

01:22:41   we want it to work conceptually.

01:22:42   I want there to be one big pool of photos

01:22:43   that belong to the family,

01:22:44   and maybe separate pools for individuals.

01:22:46   Eventually the kids will want their own separate pools

01:22:48   and won't want to mingle with ours,

01:22:49   but for my wife and I,

01:22:51   I think all our photos share one big pool.

01:22:53   So it's kind of a shame that I don't have access

01:22:56   to all of our family's photos on my phone, and she does,

01:22:59   but the flip side of that is she has access

01:23:01   to all of our photos on her phone,

01:23:02   which means when she brings up the photo picker

01:23:04   in any iOS application, 10 to 15 second wait

01:23:08   before the photo picker comes up.

01:23:10   So it's not just, you know, I tried it in Apple mail,

01:23:13   I tried it in Twitterrific,

01:23:14   it is not a per application thing.

01:23:15   You bring up that photo picker, time it, 10 to 15 seconds.

01:23:19   And every time, second time, it takes just as long.

01:23:22   Once it comes up, it's a little slow,

01:23:24   but you know, again, it's amazing

01:23:25   that you have access to 67,000 photos,

01:23:27   but it's, you know, we are at the limits

01:23:31   of what this thing can handle.

01:23:32   It's kind of amazing that it does it and it doesn't crash.

01:23:34   But on the other hand, it's like,

01:23:35   if you're going to do this, I don't know what you can do.

01:23:38   Maybe just like only let the photo picker see the last four

01:23:42   or five years and then have it like,

01:23:43   I don't know what you have to do

01:23:45   to make that picker come up sooner.

01:23:46   Like I understand the problems inherent in this,

01:23:49   but it is not a great experience.

01:23:52   And the final thing I want to say

01:23:52   about the cloud syncing here is that Marco was talking about,

01:23:55   well, you know, get another Mac,

01:23:56   have that do your cloud sync and have it keep all your

01:23:57   photos within and your main smaller Mac,

01:24:01   have it just optimize storage and not keep all of them there.

01:24:04   Just as RAID is not a backup, iCloud PhotoSync

01:24:07   is not a backup, because if you do something bad,

01:24:10   those changes will rapidly cascade to all your servers

01:24:13   that are doing this Cloud Sync, and it

01:24:15   will dutifully delete every single photo you deleted

01:24:17   from-- so if you accidentally delete a huge amount of photos,

01:24:19   it will delete them everywhere.

01:24:21   It will delete them off your phone.

01:24:22   It will delete them off your Mac Mac Mini.

01:24:23   It will delete-- probably before you can race into the other room

01:24:25   and yank the ethernet cable out of the back of that Mac Mini,

01:24:28   it will have deleted a hell of a lot of those pictures.

01:24:30   So iCloud Photos Sync is not a backup.

01:24:33   You need actual backups.

01:24:35   And not only do you need actual backups,

01:24:37   you need backups like time machine style backups

01:24:39   that don't just do disk clones.

01:24:41   You need disk clones too, and cloud backups.

01:24:43   But you need something that keeps older versions of things.

01:24:46   Because it is very easy to have a catastrophic cloud

01:24:49   thing that goes wrong that causes a runaway--

01:24:51   that's the type of bug you can have--

01:24:53   causes a runaway deletion of thousands of photos.

01:24:55   And that deletion will sync, if Apple does its job well,

01:24:59   will sync to all your devices everywhere

01:25:01   before you can do anything about it.

01:25:03   And if you don't notice, and like 15 minutes later,

01:25:06   your backup systems run automatically backup everything,

01:25:08   and your backups aren't like incremental date type backups,

01:25:12   like if you have the SuperDuper clone,

01:25:14   the SuperDuper clone will delete,

01:25:15   well, it will clone your drive as it exists now

01:25:17   with the deleted photos, and those photos will be gone.

01:25:19   So in this cloud connected world,

01:25:21   you have to be very aware of what kind of data loss changes

01:25:25   will automatically be pushed out

01:25:27   to all of my quote unquote backups.

01:25:29   So I'm very leery of that and I'm really trying to keep that in mind when I have a

01:25:37   backup strategy.

01:25:38   And I have to admit, part of my backup strategy is I'm never going to delete my iPhoto library.

01:25:42   Like it will always be there, I'll probably never modify those things.

01:25:45   At the very least, all those photos will be as safe as they could possibly be sitting

01:25:49   on HFS+ where we have no idea what the contents of the files actually are.

01:25:54   And speaking of the hard links, I try desperately not to think about the implementation of hard

01:25:57   hard links, which I want to know if they can go read my old S10 articles about it.

01:26:03   Hard links were grafted onto HFS+, and the way it does it is it puts a special file in

01:26:08   a special hidden directory, and there's only one of those directories.

01:26:11   And you may not know much about file systems, but sort of gut feeling, if you make a single

01:26:17   directory and you just keep putting files in there at a certain point, hundreds of files,

01:26:22   thousands of files, how many files can you put in a single directory?

01:26:24   nested in subfolders but just flat in a single directory before the file system gets cranky.

01:26:29   Yes, it uses B trees or B+ trees or whatever.

01:26:31   Wait, that's what it's doing?

01:26:33   There's a hidden directory, and in that hidden directory is a single file for every hard

01:26:36   link on your disk.

01:26:37   No wonder your Photos app is so much slower than mine.

01:26:40   I mean, just think about Time Machine.

01:26:41   I mean, Time Machine is just full of hard links, but, you know, Photos, yeah.

01:26:45   So I think there's your answer, because I have 27, let me see, yeah, I have 26,000 photos.

01:26:52   So about half to a third of what you have.

01:26:55   But my performance is amazing.

01:26:57   It flies.

01:26:58   I didn't do an iPhoto import at all because I was using Lightroom before.

01:27:03   So I literally copied my directories, the photos, I copied them over to the NAS to back

01:27:11   it up to kind of like save it.

01:27:13   And then I just copied them all into the new photos app and deleted the originals.

01:27:18   So it has things arranged the way it wants them arranged.

01:27:21   - Yeah, no, I mean, this has it arranged,

01:27:23   it's not, once you make the hard links, it's fine.

01:27:25   I'm just like, I'm leery of having that many files

01:27:27   in a single directory.

01:27:28   I don't think the fact that I have a bunch of hard links

01:27:30   is causing my performance problems,

01:27:31   'cause once you make them, like,

01:27:32   reading one file is the same as reading any other file.

01:27:34   This is just the sort of linking one set of data

01:27:38   to another, it's on a per file basis,

01:27:40   especially since, like, it's not like it's reading the files

01:27:42   off disk when I'm, like, scrolling through them or whatever.

01:27:44   It's, you know, thumbnails or whatever crazy database

01:27:46   it's doing, like, once it's up and running,

01:27:48   I think the difference we're experiencing

01:27:49   has to do with two things.

01:27:50   One, your computer is way faster than mine,

01:27:52   and two, you have way fewer photos.

01:27:54   So it would be kind of a fun experiment

01:27:56   to triple the size of your library

01:27:59   and see how that performs.

01:28:01   Like, I really think there is a threshold,

01:28:03   'cause with iPhoto there definitely was.

01:28:04   iPhoto was fine for many, many years,

01:28:06   and once I started pushing up into maybe

01:28:08   it was around the mid-40s, maybe into the 50s,

01:28:11   it started to be like, "Uncle, that's it."

01:28:15   It still did the job, but every operation,

01:28:18   And like, I'm more picky about this than most people.

01:28:21   Like I don't wanna wait for the computer.

01:28:23   - It's real.

01:28:24   - I've told the story many times of like

01:28:26   when I had my original Mac and the Mac Plus

01:28:28   and the Mac SE 30 and stuff,

01:28:30   that I would use the computer

01:28:31   and you would do things like double click a folder

01:28:33   in the finder and it would do this animation

01:28:35   where it would show like the outline of the new window

01:28:37   that's going to open expanding into place, right?

01:28:40   Same thing with dialogue boxes and stuff like that.

01:28:43   I would have the cursor waiting on the section of the screen

01:28:47   where I knew that the close box or the OK button

01:28:51   or the next folder I wanted was eventually going to appear

01:28:53   when the thing finished redrawing it.

01:28:55   And I'd know how much of it needed to be drawn

01:28:57   before I could click and have the click register

01:28:58   into the window that's about to appear.

01:29:00   Like, it just felt like I was just waiting forever

01:29:04   for everything to happen.

01:29:05   It's like, yeah, yeah, draw your stuff, okay,

01:29:08   drawing, drawing, drawing, just enough of it is drawn,

01:29:10   now I can click, move the mouse to the next position, okay.

01:29:12   Waiting for the dialogue,

01:29:13   like that is my experience of using the computer

01:29:15   and it hasn't changed much since I've gotten older,

01:29:17   If anything, I've gotten more cranky about it.

01:29:19   And like with iPhone, it's like,

01:29:21   you're showing a series of pictures.

01:29:23   You have phenomenal computing power

01:29:25   compared to the computers I used as a kid.

01:29:28   I just want to hit the right arrow key

01:29:29   and I want you to show me the next picture.

01:29:31   Immediately at full res, as soon as I hit the key,

01:29:34   I don't think I'm asking for a lot.

01:29:35   It's full screen mode.

01:29:37   There's only one picture on the screen at once.

01:29:38   There is not a giant grid of 60,000 photos.

01:29:41   It is full screen, one picture, hit the next arrow,

01:29:44   show me the next picture.

01:29:45   Can I add a rating?

01:29:46   Can I add a keyword?

01:29:47   Do that immediately.

01:29:49   Give me some visual feedback that it has been done.

01:29:52   I don't, maybe write it to your metadata database

01:29:54   in an async thread.

01:29:55   Like I don't, whatever it is that's making it slow.

01:29:58   It's making me sad.

01:29:59   I have some hope that, you know,

01:30:01   computer hardware will get faster,

01:30:04   faster than my photo library grows.

01:30:06   And you know, as the kids get older,

01:30:07   you take fewer pictures of them and everything,

01:30:09   but I'm never gonna delete many more of these pictures.

01:30:12   Like most of the one stars are gone.

01:30:14   So I'm thinking by the time these kids go to college,

01:30:17   I'm gonna have a six digit number of photos

01:30:19   and I really hope Apple software can keep up with it.

01:30:21   - And by the way, this is a perfect example

01:30:24   of a very, very common task that people do

01:30:28   on their computers that will kill a laptop's battery.

01:30:32   Because this is using tons of resources.

01:30:34   You're reading tons of little files off the disk.

01:30:37   - The face recognition thing running in the background,

01:30:40   that alone will destroy it.

01:30:41   - Yeah, and not to mention, you know,

01:30:42   all like the resizing operations of thousands of photos.

01:30:45   I mean, that's a big computational job.

01:30:48   And if you're browsing through photos

01:30:49   and applying some light adjustments here and there,

01:30:52   even just what you said, just browsing them full size.

01:30:54   - Well, importing is a lot.

01:30:55   Like I feel like there's a lot of upfront work,

01:30:58   especially with the import.

01:30:59   Like that's why I gave it a chance,

01:31:00   like let it settle down.

01:31:01   It did the import, let it do all the faces,

01:31:03   let it make all its thumbnails.

01:31:04   Like I feel like you should be able to get the library

01:31:06   into a steady state where like I'm not adding any photos.

01:31:09   I have not added any photos to this library for a week.

01:31:11   the app has been running,

01:31:12   like it's the only app running on the system,

01:31:14   is anything in it fast?

01:31:16   And the answer is no, it's not, it's just not.

01:31:18   Forget about adding new photos.

01:31:19   Obviously every time you add new photos,

01:31:20   it's gotta parse them all, it's gotta make the thumbnails,

01:31:22   it's gotta read the metadata, put it into its database,

01:31:25   it's gotta do the face recognition.

01:31:26   Like I understand that's always gonna be grinding away

01:31:28   when it's doing that, things are gonna be slow.

01:31:29   But I feel like in a steady state,

01:31:32   simple operations should be fast,

01:31:33   and they're just not with a library my size

01:31:35   on my particular hardware,

01:31:36   which is a 2011 MacBook Air with four gigs of RAM.

01:31:39   - Yeah, I mean that could be a big part of the problem.

01:31:41   I mean, that's not a great answer to that question,

01:31:44   but that might be a big part of the problem.

01:31:46   - I mean, I hope that the SSDs would be a thing like that.

01:31:48   That's why I bought an external SSD.

01:31:50   It's, you know, these are fast SSDs.

01:31:52   The internal one is not great, but like, you know,

01:31:55   forget about it on a spinning disc,

01:31:56   I would just, it'd be useless.

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01:34:02   - Boom.

01:34:03   - This is a little bit of homework

01:34:05   one of us did. But would you like to tell us, that person, about pricing of photos as

01:34:15   compared to Dropbox and whatever else that we looked at?

01:34:20   So this is another thing about Apple's photo solution. They, you know, if you want to use

01:34:24   their cloud backup, and you don't have to by the way, you can just have them on your

01:34:27   local disk and it works like iPhoto. You can do that, you don't have to pay any extra money

01:34:30   for it or whatever, which is great. I'm glad they gave that option, but part of the reason

01:34:33   I was doing it is I wanted to do the online sync option and to do that you have to buy

01:34:37   storage and so you get 5 gigs free with an iCloud with an Apple ID, right?

01:34:41   You can get 20 gigs for a dollar a month, 200 gigs for $4 a month, 500 gigs for $10

01:34:48   a month and a terabyte for $20 a month.

01:34:50   And those prices are vastly improved over what they used to be but unfortunately the

01:34:54   rest of the competition is way better.

01:34:57   So Dropbox is about half the price.

01:34:59   It'll give you a terabyte for 10 bucks instead of half a terabyte for 10 bucks like Apple

01:35:03   will.

01:35:04   Dropbox only gives you two gigs for free, but you can refer people to get a little bit

01:35:07   there or whatever.

01:35:08   Amazon Cloud Drive gives you unlimited photos and five gigabytes of video for $12 a year.

01:35:16   So forget about a month.

01:35:18   Unlimited photos, $12 a year plus five gigs of videos.

01:35:21   You can have unlimited everything, unlimited photos and unlimited video for $60 a year.

01:35:25   I guess it's kind of good when S3 is your thing and you don't have to pay Amazon for

01:35:28   S3 because you are Amazon.

01:35:29   - Well, to be fair, they probably aren't operating

01:35:31   at a massive profit margin.

01:35:33   - Yeah, that's the Amazon way, but whatever.

01:35:34   Amazon Cloud Drive, ridiculously less expensive.

01:35:38   Microsoft OneDrive gives you 15 gigs for free,

01:35:40   which is three times more than Apple gives you for free.

01:35:42   100 gigs for $2 a month, 200 gigs for $4 a month,

01:35:46   which exactly matches Apple.

01:35:47   One terabyte for $7 a month, so $7 versus 20.

01:35:51   So their pricing is roundabout, you know,

01:35:54   in the 200 gig range, it's the same as Apple's,

01:35:56   but when you go to one terabyte,

01:35:57   $7 a month versus $20 a month.

01:36:00   Microsoft is definitely running there.

01:36:01   And Casey just put in information for Picture Life,

01:36:03   which is 25 gigs for $5 a month,

01:36:05   100 gigs for $10 a month, and unlimited for 15.

01:36:08   So again, another unlimited thing.

01:36:10   Amazon gives you unlimited, way cheaper than Apple.

01:36:12   Picture Life gives you unlimited, also cheaper than Apple.

01:36:14   Now, what are you getting with the Apple thing?

01:36:17   Like Marco said, integration with all your iOS devices.

01:36:20   It's the only solution that I'm aware of

01:36:23   that has complete integration

01:36:25   with the actual Apple photo library.

01:36:27   Lots of these things have their own iOS app or whatever.

01:36:29   And I guess with sharing extensions,

01:36:32   you can get to the stuff.

01:36:33   But so many iOS apps bring up a picture picker.

01:36:36   They let you pick from your photo library,

01:36:38   which is the Apple photo library.

01:36:40   So you are paying for that integration,

01:36:42   but Apple storage pricing is not that great.

01:36:45   - Well, but I would say,

01:36:47   based on what it is, where it is integrated,

01:36:51   how it's integrated, how it's even presented to you,

01:36:53   I would say you're not gonna be seeing

01:36:55   a lot of people doing comparison shopping.

01:36:57   You're not gonna be seeing like--

01:36:58   - No, that's true.

01:36:59   I just like that.

01:37:00   I think it's the ones that really,

01:37:01   I think are hurt Apple's competitiveness,

01:37:04   especially after they just changed the prices.

01:37:06   The ones that hurt are the unlimited ones,

01:37:07   because that's like a different ball game.

01:37:09   It's like, we're no longer haggling over the price.

01:37:11   I know you're not gonna compare,

01:37:12   but knowing that there are unlimited stuff out there,

01:37:15   that's like, well, these are a bunch of pricing tiers,

01:37:19   but I've heard one of them is unlimited

01:37:20   and unlimited for, you know, $20 a month versus $12 a year.

01:37:24   One is unlimited, one is not.

01:37:26   And the unlimited one is the cheaper one.

01:37:29   God, that's really gotta hurt.

01:37:30   So I feel like Apple still needs to adjust its prices.

01:37:33   You're right, people aren't gonna comparison shop for it,

01:37:35   but they're gonna be cranky when they realize,

01:37:37   especially if they're upgrading

01:37:38   and they have like a 201 gig library

01:37:40   and they realize that they made $10 a month,

01:37:42   they're like, that's more than I pay for Netflix.

01:37:44   Wait a second, right?

01:37:45   You get the integration, it's nice.

01:37:47   I think people should still definitely do it.

01:37:48   I think it is the best, easiest point and shoot solution

01:37:51   for people with photos,

01:37:52   especially if you don't have a lot of them.

01:37:53   but I really wish the performance was better

01:37:55   and I hope that Apple keeps up the pricing

01:37:58   and feels some pressure to be competitive

01:38:01   because right now they are not particularly competitive

01:38:03   on storage pricing.

01:38:04   - Yeah, but at the same time it's within the realm of reason

01:38:09   and it depends, again, it depends a lot

01:38:11   on how big your library is.

01:38:12   Because of the tiered system, like you're right,

01:38:14   the 201 gig example, you're gonna pay for 500

01:38:17   if you need 201.

01:38:19   I need like 280, so I'm paying for 500.

01:38:23   And even like the nickel and diming,

01:38:24   like their tiers are spread,

01:38:25   like everyone else is just like small

01:38:27   and then one terabyte or unlimited,

01:38:29   like, you know, like Picture Life,

01:38:31   25, 100 unlimited, Microsoft, 1500, 200, one terabyte.

01:38:36   Like that, you know, that Apple has a smoother gradation,

01:38:39   but it's like one terabyte is basically

01:38:41   any reasonable person type thing,

01:38:44   but plan $20 a month,

01:38:46   like $15 a month unlimited on Picture Life.

01:38:48   Like, I don't think it makes that big of a difference.

01:38:50   The bottom line is I would pay double these prices

01:38:53   for storage if it had two things,

01:38:55   the ability to handle my library

01:38:57   with much better performance

01:38:58   and the ability to share photos in my family

01:39:01   in the way that I want,

01:39:02   because it frustrates me that only my wife has access

01:39:04   to all of our photos on her phone.

01:39:06   I don't have them on my phone

01:39:07   and I will never have them on my phone

01:39:09   because Apple has no solution for that,

01:39:11   unless we're gonna make a giant share,

01:39:13   we're gonna drag every single photo into the family library

01:39:15   and I imagine they would probably

01:39:17   not perform particularly well.

01:39:19   So I'm not even gonna try that.

01:39:20   - Well, we'll see.

01:39:21   And it was only, wasn't it only last year that they introduced family plans?

01:39:24   Was that just last year?

01:39:25   Yeah, I mean that's why the feature is there.

01:39:27   Like it's confusing.

01:39:28   People I see like, "I didn't make an album called Family.

01:39:30   What the hell is this?"

01:39:31   Anything you put in that album automatically appears in the photo libraries of people who

01:39:36   are in your family.

01:39:37   Like you know, in the family that you set up, you know, in the Yosemite Review you can

01:39:41   read about the whole family thing.

01:39:42   Like I love that you can set up a family and I like they've added features that have an

01:39:45   awareness of it.

01:39:46   It just doesn't quite work the way that I want it to work with my family.

01:39:49   I don't think the way I want it should be the default or like the only way to work with it

01:39:53   but this particular way I think is a common way where like

01:39:56   The mom and the dad want to see all the photos and every photo they take they both want to go into this library

01:40:02   Like that's I think that's a reasonable way to handle photos

01:40:06   Where as it stands now any photo my wife takes with our phone goes into our family photo library any photo that I take with

01:40:11   My phone is stranded in this weird island over on a Mac Pro and I have to somehow get it over there and I don't have

01:40:16   access to any of the photos that she takes or any of the photos in her library unless

01:40:19   she manually drags them into the shared thing that we, the shared family library or a photo

01:40:24   stream that we share.

01:40:25   It is almost as though every eye device is an island.

01:40:29   Oh, God.

01:40:31   No Eye Life is an Island was the title, I believe, of that Hypercradle episode, which

01:40:36   Casey will put into the show notes once his computer dries out.

01:40:40   So John is saying that, and I apologize if you've heard some clanging and whatnot in

01:40:45   in the background, but--

01:40:46   - Should I leave that in?

01:40:47   - Yeah, you might as well.

01:40:48   Real time follow up, I've just poured half a glass of water

01:40:52   on Aaron's MacBook Air.

01:40:53   - Oh no, it's herds!

01:40:54   - Yes, because it's the one without the screaming fans.

01:40:57   So the good news is it wasn't soda,

01:41:00   so hopefully this'll last long enough to finish the episode

01:41:03   and then God knows what the hell I'll do.

01:41:05   - Apple will know it has been tampered with,

01:41:07   the little watery things inside of it right now

01:41:09   or changing color or whatever the hell they do.

01:41:11   - You were just talking about how you were gonna replace

01:41:13   yours like imminently.

01:41:14   Oh man, that's terrible.

01:41:16   - Yeah, yep, yep, it's about time.

01:41:19   - Not for that one though, right?

01:41:20   - Well, no, but it's about time that I've done this.

01:41:22   - Isn't that one like only a year old?

01:41:24   - Yeah, pretty much, 'cause I bought this

01:41:26   mostly because she was using my ancient poly book.

01:41:30   Hi, Steven Hackett.

01:41:32   And, sorry, I'm multitasking here and drying off my desk.

01:41:36   She was using my ancient poly book,

01:41:37   which wasn't really working anymore.

01:41:39   And so I got her this MacBook Air

01:41:43   and then started to commandeer it for the shows

01:41:45   because it doesn't have a screaming fan

01:41:47   on like every other computer I have.

01:41:50   So yes, and I accidentally just dumped

01:41:53   maybe like a third of a, what is a normal beer glass?

01:41:56   A pint, is that right?

01:41:58   - Well, it's vague, yeah.

01:41:59   It's probably, you probably dumped

01:42:00   about four to five ounces of water on it, I'll say that.

01:42:03   - So I immediately flipped it upside down.

01:42:05   So hopefully that was some of the clattering you've heard.

01:42:08   But yeah, we'll see what happens.

01:42:11   - Oh, Aaron's gonna kill you.

01:42:12   - Oh yeah, you have no idea.

01:42:13   - And that'll be deserved.

01:42:14   - Yeah.

01:42:15   - 'Cause you can spill water into not your computer,

01:42:17   her computer.

01:42:18   - Oh yeah, I mean thankfully I am the Tina

01:42:21   of this relationship, title,

01:42:23   insofar as I am the keeper of all of the data,

01:42:26   but yeah, this is no point no.

01:42:28   - Well you have a backup solution I assume.

01:42:30   - Yeah, and this thing is also backed up to the Synology,

01:42:33   I thought, last I looked.

01:42:35   I'm afraid to touch anything now.

01:42:36   - Might wanna verify that tonight.

01:42:38   - Yeah.

01:42:39   - 'Cause usually the way this works is,

01:42:41   it'll work fine for a little while,

01:42:43   and then it'll start getting flaky and weird,

01:42:44   and then it'll just stop.

01:42:46   Like, that'll usually happen over the span of days.

01:42:49   - Yeah, yeah, this is no good.

01:42:52   It's no good, kids, no good at all.

01:42:55   - Oh man, that sucks.

01:42:57   I feel bad laughing, it's really uncomfortable,

01:42:59   and unfortunate.

01:43:00   - Yeah, yep, yep, yep, I'm just mopping up

01:43:02   all the water from my desk.

01:43:03   Luckily, it was with such force that hopefully

01:43:06   only but an ounce or so actually landed on the keyboard,

01:43:09   but I should take a picture of the pile of paper towels

01:43:12   that I have now put on the floor.

01:43:15   - So where is your drink in relation to your computer

01:43:18   that this was even possible?

01:43:20   - Jon, I refuse to answer that question.

01:43:21   (Jon laughing)

01:43:22   - 'Cause like this is the key to,

01:43:23   if you do not want to spill liquid on your computer,

01:43:26   here's the key to doing it.

01:43:28   Do not have a glass of liquid anywhere

01:43:30   that if it tips over, the water can get to your computer.

01:43:32   - Oh, is that the idea, Jon?

01:43:33   Where were you 20 minutes ago?

01:43:36   - I have a glass next to me right now.

01:43:38   I reach out and take drinks from it all the time

01:43:40   during the podcast.

01:43:41   It is on a lower level than my desk,

01:43:43   and if it spilled, there is no way that the water

01:43:46   could get either to the top of my desk

01:43:47   or way over to my Mac Pro, which is on the floor,

01:43:50   far away from it.

01:43:51   There is not enough water for that to happen.

01:43:53   - An alternate solution is to either use a desktop

01:43:56   or when using a laptop, have it up on a stand or something.

01:43:58   So that way, if water covers your whole desk,

01:44:02   it might kill a mouse or a keyboard, maybe.

01:44:04   - You could still splash onto the keyboard.

01:44:06   If the height of your cup is higher than the thing

01:44:08   on the stand, it's close.

01:44:10   - So if I had an extra hand,

01:44:13   I would take a picture of myself talking into the microphone

01:44:15   whilst holding the laptop upside down.

01:44:18   So hopefully any water.

01:44:19   - And flipping us off?

01:44:20   - No, no, I'm flipping myself off

01:44:23   if such a thing were possible.

01:44:24   - If it was possible,

01:44:25   you'd be the person to figure out how to do it.

01:44:27   - That's true.

01:44:28   God, this has not been my evening kids.

01:44:30   - Oh, geez.

01:44:31   - This is terrible.

01:44:32   - So what do you think about the iCloud photo pricing?

01:44:35   I don't know, what are we talking about?

01:44:37   Is this the show?

01:44:38   Is this what people tuned in for?

01:44:39   - Oh, I'm so sorry.

01:44:41   - It's all right, did it to myself, kids.

01:44:43   Did it to myself.

01:44:44   - Let's wrap up.

01:44:45   - Yeah, I think we should fast forward to the after show

01:44:48   as quickly as possible, so whenever we end,

01:44:50   there's a prayer that you can get my side of the recording.

01:44:52   - Oh my God, well, thanks a lot

01:44:54   to our three sponsors this week,

01:44:55   Cards Against Humanity, Squarespace, and Jack Threads,

01:44:58   and we will see you next week.

01:45:00   (upbeat music)

01:45:02   ♪ Now the show is over ♪

01:45:04   They didn't even mean to begin 'Cause it was accidental

01:45:09   Oh, it was accidental John didn't do any research

01:45:15   Marco and Casey wouldn't let him 'Cause it was accidental

01:45:19   Oh, it was accidental And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

01:45:26   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:45:33   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:45:37   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O A-R-M

01:45:41   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C

01:45:46   U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

01:45:49   It's accidental

01:45:52   ♪ They didn't mean to accidentally ♪

01:45:57   ♪ Tech podcast so long ♪

01:46:01   - Oh God. - Oh man.

01:46:04   No, you're probably okay for the next few minutes at least.

01:46:06   But yeah, I would start making,

01:46:10   start convincing yourself

01:46:13   that you're gonna have to possibly be okay

01:46:15   with replacing this computer in the next month or two.

01:46:18   Possibly in the next week,

01:46:20   but most likely the next month or two.

01:46:22   - Well, they didn't have, how much water

01:46:24   are we talking about here?

01:46:25   - I don't know, it was, again,

01:46:27   it was a pint glass that I had.

01:46:29   I think it was about 2/3 empty or 1/3,

01:46:32   that's a statement about my point of view, isn't it?

01:46:34   It was 2/3 empty.

01:46:36   It was 1/3 full is what I meant to say.

01:46:40   And I whacked it and so it kind of,

01:46:44   the glass was immediately to the right of the computer,

01:46:48   I'm sorry, John.

01:46:49   and the glass kind of flew on top of the computer,

01:46:53   which is good in this case.

01:46:55   And so I would guess between one and two ounces

01:46:58   probably spilled out.

01:46:59   - Directly onto the keyboard part?

01:47:00   - Oh yeah.

01:47:02   - Well yeah, I'm with Marco on this.

01:47:05   - Oh, I'm screwed.

01:47:06   - See, the worst part about this

01:47:08   is that you might be out some money.

01:47:10   But the second worst part about this

01:47:12   is that you're gonna get email from everybody

01:47:15   over the next few days saying,

01:47:16   "If only you would have done my trick.

01:47:18   here's my trick that works every time or that worked for me once or that I heard

01:47:22   work for somebody's uncle once you're gonna be getting everybody's weird tips

01:47:26   and tricks of yeah well I just put the whole computer in rice oh you didn't

01:47:29   do that immediately well you're screwed but if you were to that immediately it

01:47:31   would have fixed it like oh you're gonna hear everything from everybody yep I can

01:47:36   hardly wait sorry you should I should ask Mike how to fix it oh that's cold

01:47:45   But actually he didn't fix it, did he?

01:47:47   Nope.

01:47:47   So maybe you shouldn't ask Mike.

01:47:49   Ask somebody else how to fix it.

01:47:50   Thank you underscore Chris for that extremely useful piece of information.

01:47:54   Hey, this is all caps, mind you.

01:47:55   Hey, Casey, here's my tip.

01:47:57   Don't spill your effing drink on your computer.

01:47:59   Oh! I didn't realize that was the idea.

01:48:03   Oh, well thank you so very much.

01:48:06   I will take that into consideration and under consideration in the future.

01:48:10   Ah, this week is gonna suck.

01:48:12   Well, I mean, it shouldn't be that hard to dry it out.

01:48:14   I mean Virginia has a pretty dry climate right? Oh totally not a lot of humidity there. No, not a bit. Oh

01:48:19   Feel so bad for you right now. That's an innovation

01:48:23   They could bring to the MacBook one 1.5 or whatever like as the you know

01:48:28   We see the with the inside of these computers look like right mostly just battery and an ever shrinking part. That is the computer

01:48:33   Probably this will come to the watch first

01:48:36   But that part that is the computer as it gets smaller and smaller

01:48:39   It starts to become feasible to sort of especially if they're fanless starts to become feasible to encase that in something, right?

01:48:45   Yeah, you know have the heat transferred out to the rest of the case and all this stuff you do but like you can imagine

01:48:51   making the insides of

01:48:54   MacBook one size laptop

01:48:57   pretty water resistant like and the little s1 thing looks like it already might be and

01:49:01   Maybe like I said, that's where it'll come first as they but you know as they get smaller and smaller and smaller

01:49:06   it starts to become feasible, I think,

01:49:08   to weatherproof those guts,

01:49:11   just because there's so few of them

01:49:12   and they're less sensitive,

01:49:15   like especially in the fanless models,

01:49:17   if you just have metal, kind of like a sealed metal thing

01:49:19   where there's good contact and thermal transfer,

01:49:22   why can't it be a little bit more resilient to water

01:49:26   than laptops currently are?

01:49:28   - I mean, if you look at the iPhone line, though,

01:49:30   like if any amount of good reason

01:49:34   why you should make something water resistant

01:49:36   applies way more to an iPhone than to a MacBook

01:49:39   for the most part.

01:49:40   - Yeah, the way they do it with the phones,

01:49:42   at least from the Samsung ones,

01:49:43   is they don't try to seal the insides

01:49:47   so much as they try to seal the outside, like the case.

01:49:50   Make the case waterproof

01:49:52   and then don't worry about it on the inside.

01:49:53   But like the S1 approach,

01:49:54   and at least in these little diagrams that we've seen,

01:49:56   is like the S1 has always shown us like this little module

01:49:58   that itself is encased in something.

01:50:01   I think in the laptops you have more options

01:50:02   because in the phones, your only option, I think, really,

01:50:05   is to try to seal the outer case, and that's tough because that takes abuse, rather than

01:50:09   saying yeah water will get inside the case, but once it gets in there there's nothing

01:50:11   it can do damage wise because the entire guts are sealed up and the only weak point is like

01:50:16   where the battery connects and we'll try to make that a waterproof connector, but that

01:50:20   I think would add thickness to the phone, but in a laptop you get a little bit of leeway,

01:50:23   like we're not there yet, maybe three or four more gens, like the next time that Apple puts

01:50:28   up a slide that says look at how dramatically smaller we've made the motherboard, that time

01:50:31   then it's like alright now we're getting to the point where you could actually seal that

01:50:34   sucker up inside there and make a more, this is kind of a shame, this is a really expensive

01:50:39   thing, you happen to spill a little bit of water on it and what you said Marco is totally

01:50:43   true that people are like "oh I did it in rice, it seemed like it was fine, then it

01:50:45   started to get flaky" and it's just like the worst kind of slow motion death. You wish,

01:50:49   almost wish it was just dead and wouldn't turn on anymore.

01:50:52   Yeah, yeah, because it's like when a hard drive has like one bad sector, it's like you

01:50:56   know it's only going to go downhill from there but it might be a slow, awkward, painful thing

01:51:01   and yeah, that's how this is.

01:51:03   You know, maybe it'll start kernel panicking

01:51:05   more frequently over the next month, and you don't know.

01:51:08   There's no way to really know.

01:51:10   And then now, any weird thing that ever happens

01:51:13   on this computer again, you're gonna ask yourself,

01:51:15   "Oh, is it because I spilled water on it once?"

01:51:16   Like, you're never gonna trust it.

01:51:19   - It'll be slowly corrupting the data on your disk

01:51:21   and you won't know because HFS+ has no checksums.

01:51:23   (laughing)

01:51:25   - Oh my god.

01:51:27   - You'll load a photo from five years ago

01:51:29   and half of it will be missing and it will be blue and sparkly colored and

01:51:33   The OS and the file system think everything is fine. It just read the bytes right off disk. This is what was there

01:51:38   Isn't this what you originally wrote? We have no way to know. Oh

01:51:40   God, oh my god. What happens if this WWDC you can't go which I do not want to happen

01:51:47   I really hope you can make it some way somehow

01:51:49   But let's suppose you can't go and they release a new file system and let's go out on a really big limb

01:51:56   Or maybe small limb actually and say it's a file system you approve of I know you'll have plenty of other things to complain about

01:52:03   But what else will you complain about like what's the next lowest hanging fruit?

01:52:07   Realistically speaking when they replace a bit of HMS+ and it will happen eventually

01:52:11   I have very dim hopes that they will replace it with something that has data integrity

01:52:16   I think they're much more likely to go for the other features like

01:52:19   Performance and you know, you know copy on write and constant time snapshots

01:52:24   Like there are many modern features that that are have more selling points and fewer downsides than

01:52:31   Data integrity data integrity. I just think is the most important one

01:52:35   So I think if and when they do come out with a new file system

01:52:38   I fully expect

01:52:39   to be disappointed in the new file system

01:52:41   Even though it has a whole bunch of the modern cool features that I like

01:52:44   Because it doesn't have the one feature that I think is essential which is let me know that the data I wrote is the same

01:52:49   data that's still there five years from now.

01:52:51   Mostly because that one feature is the biggest performance hit.

01:52:55   That is the one that costs the most in performance.

01:52:57   I really hope I'm wrong about this, but if I had to choose which would you rather have,

01:53:02   all the whizzy cool features and better performance and snapshots and stuff like that, or data

01:53:07   integrity, I would pick data integrity.

01:53:08   If you look at the reality of the world we live in today, the devices that we use, how

01:53:14   things are stored, where things are stored, the cloud's role in all of this.

01:53:19   You could almost see like if some project manager at Apple is trying to weigh the pros

01:53:24   and cons here, you could almost see the argument of data integrity isn't worth the cost because

01:53:30   the vast majority of our customers are using things like iOS devices where they're not

01:53:36   going to have one instance of a file system. They're not going to have like one phone using

01:53:41   it's a file system for five years.

01:53:43   They're gonna have, these things are all shorter lifespans.

01:53:46   And they're gonna be backed up to iCloud,

01:53:48   which will be managing the truth.

01:53:50   - Does iCloud use a file system that uses,

01:53:53   has data integrity checksums?

01:53:54   I doubt it.

01:53:55   - I don't think we know.

01:53:55   - I don't think it does.

01:53:57   - Do the Linux EXT whatevers, do they have it?

01:53:59   - I don't think so.

01:54:00   Maybe BTRFS has it as an option.

01:54:05   Some of them have as an option, not turned on.

01:54:07   But for the same reason,

01:54:09   data centers won't wanna turn on for the same reason,

01:54:11   because it costs CPU time, and they're all about CPU time

01:54:14   is heat is money is air conditioning is power.

01:54:16   You know what I mean?

01:54:18   I just think we haven't hit that inflection point where

01:54:21   it's like, in my mind we have, it's stupid not to do it,

01:54:26   at least in situations where you really care about the data.

01:54:28   But there are still countervailing forces

01:54:31   that say, well, we don't really need to do it,

01:54:33   and really data-- the error rates are low,

01:54:36   and blah, blah, blah.

01:54:37   The volumes of data are just so massive.

01:54:40   It's like hard drive failure where it's like,

01:54:42   it's not a big deal in an individual's life,

01:54:44   but if your back plays, 15 hard drives fail a day, right?

01:54:47   20 hard drives fail a day, right?

01:54:49   And so like terabytes upon terabytes of data,

01:54:51   as the storage capacity goes up,

01:54:53   chances are almost 100%

01:54:55   that you have a bit that slips somewhere.

01:54:57   Is it an important bit?

01:54:58   Does it matter?

01:54:59   Will it ever cause a problem?

01:54:59   Probably not, but like, especially with the cloud stuff,

01:55:03   one bum device, one phone that is a little bit flaky

01:55:06   that, you know, who knows what was wrong with it?

01:55:08   hit by a cosmic ray, and then that couple bit error

01:55:12   that causes the bottom half of your writing photo

01:55:14   to be unreadable gets transferred all over the cloud

01:55:17   and dutifully replicated all over the place,

01:55:18   and you don't notice until you see it next year

01:55:20   and the original one is gone.

01:55:22   And so that's why data integrity is important.

01:55:23   Someone's gotta do it somewhere.

01:55:26   I don't know if it's time for it to be done on my watch,

01:55:28   on my phone, I think it's time for it to be done on my Mac.

01:55:30   I really think it's time to be done in data centers

01:55:32   even though it costs more money, but that's,

01:55:36   in our lifetime, I think that's a thing

01:55:37   that will look back on it as being barbaric.

01:55:40   Also ECC RAM, while I'm complaining about things.

01:55:43   (laughing)

01:55:44   Throw that in there, Apple.

01:55:45   - You mean the lack of that is barbaric?

01:55:47   - Yes. - Yeah.

01:55:48   I mean, and that's, I think that's more on Intel than Apple.

01:55:52   'Cause it's, like, the chipset has to support it,

01:55:54   and I think only the Xeon chipsets of Intel stuff ever do.

01:55:57   - It's a little bit more circuitry,

01:55:58   it's a little bit more expensive, but not doing it.

01:56:01   Like, ECC RAM is made more important by HFS Plus,

01:56:05   not, you know, like, if you have some sort of accent,

01:56:07   a little bit flipping in RAM,

01:56:08   hopefully if you're dealing with file system data,

01:56:11   you will notice that by like,

01:56:12   oh, now the file has changed on disk when it shouldn't have,

01:56:15   or the bytes I read into RAM

01:56:16   are not the same as the bytes on disk

01:56:17   'cause the checksum is different.

01:56:18   Like you just, you need to have that,

01:56:21   a way to check whether your answer is right somewhere.

01:56:24   So much for my bike thing, we'll save it for next week.

01:56:30   (laughs)

01:56:31   - When that pause happened,

01:56:33   I looked up with like a panic in my eyes

01:56:36   'cause I was like, "Oh God, already?"

01:56:37   (upbeat music)

01:56:40   you