110: And on That Bombshell…


00:00:00   I think it's a bad reason for a couple of reasons.

00:00:04   Our first bit of follow up, John, it's about pronunciation so you're in charge of it.

00:00:08   Well I don't know why that's the case, but I did put this in there.

00:00:11   Dan from Twitter wrote us to tell us the correct pronunciation of MKBHD's name.

00:00:17   It is apparently Marquez, not Marcus or any other thing that we tried to mumble our way

00:00:22   through in the last show.

00:00:23   See, I'm annoyed by this because back when we first talked about him and his video when

00:00:28   when he got the alleged iPhone 6 screen cover

00:00:31   with the possible sapphire.

00:00:33   I guessed that it would have been pronounced Marquez,

00:00:36   and so I said Marquez,

00:00:38   and I heard from a few people saying, "That's wrong."

00:00:40   So that's why I didn't try to pronounce it that way again.

00:00:43   - We don't know if this is right either.

00:00:45   Anyone can type anything into a box on the web,

00:00:47   but I believe this person.

00:00:48   His typing seemed authentic.

00:00:50   (laughing)

00:00:53   - I still would like to have a video of Marquez

00:00:55   saying his own name just so I can hear it from him.

00:00:58   Yep, that would be good. There probably are a thousand hours of that video, but we don't know because we don't watch his channel.

00:01:03   But he always calls himself MKBHD.

00:01:05   Wait, that's what he calls himself like in his own videos?

00:01:07   Yeah, he says, "Hey guys, this is MKBHD." And then he like so--

00:01:10   Really?

00:01:11   Yeah, that's the first place I looked for pronunciation assistance.

00:01:14   It's like Madonna, but way longer.

00:01:16   Real-time follow-up from Underscore, who is my favorite person to have in the chat because he is like our entire

00:01:21   research squad in one character, which is Underscore. Anyway,

00:01:26   He has found a link to Marquez pronouncing his name and it's a video so I haven't listened to it

00:01:32   But he is confirmed that it is indeed Marquez. My name is Marquez Brownlee

00:01:35   Skylake no sooner we talked about

00:01:38   Skylake maybe come you know

00:01:41   Maybe maybe Apple won't even use broad well because sky like is coming so soon broadwell was delayed because they had a lot of trouble

00:01:46   With the 14 nanometer process sky like is a new architecture, but on the same process

00:01:50   So maybe do this Apple just get right to that and now just before the show I got a link to an article

00:01:56   that

00:01:57   Post some rumors about skylake possibly being delayed now. It's from digitimes

00:02:02   So take it with a grain of salt, but supposedly they're delaying it until August

00:02:06   And the article that we linked to here from IT world

00:02:11   I think tries to say that they're delaying it just to space out their products not for any particular reason like it would be ready

00:02:18   But they want to space it out to give room for broadwell to sell

00:02:20   I don't know what to think but anyway betting on Intel delaying something is always a safe bet

00:02:26   Well, the law of Intel delays and release dates is that every Intel release will be

00:02:32   late except for the one that comes right after whatever you buy.

00:02:36   Anyway, as a question of marketness, but a follow-up, this is not a definitive thing.

00:02:40   It is just a link to a rumor from Digitime, so we'll see how it goes.

00:02:44   But I'm thinking that Apple's going to ship Broadmell machines no matter what.

00:02:49   Even if Skylake was available for sale now, I think it's too late.

00:02:53   already got the Broadmell machines designed, ready, manufacturing, like, they're, I think

00:02:57   they're just gonna, you know, know what, they're gonna ship no matter what.

00:03:00   Yeah, I think you're right. It, now that, like, you know, having Skylake come so soon

00:03:04   after Broadmell was already, like, pretty suspicious, and, and so now, if there's, if

00:03:09   there's any hint that it might actually be delayed, that's extremely plausible. I agree,

00:03:14   I think we're gonna see Broadmell this summer on the 15th, and that'll be that, and we'll

00:03:18   see Skylake next year. And we also heard some interesting information that possibly explains

00:03:24   limitations of the new MacBook. So one thing I had complained about initially was that

00:03:30   it only has 8 gigs of RAM that's not configurable to anything higher. We heard from a number

00:03:35   of people and these are publicly documented on Intel's site and stuff that the Broadwell

00:03:40   Core M chipset that is used in the new MacBook to get that low power 5 watt fanless design,

00:03:47   the max RAM it supports is eight gigs.

00:03:50   So that's it, like there's just,

00:03:53   there's no more RAM that the chipset can support.

00:03:55   So that's why eight gigs is what it is.

00:03:57   - Yeah, I tried to look that up

00:03:58   rather than just taking these people's word for it.

00:04:00   If you go to Intel's site, it says the limit is 16

00:04:02   and you can see machines with 16 gigs

00:04:04   with the same processor.

00:04:06   What the person who wrote to us under the name K period says

00:04:11   is that the limit, yeah, you can put 16 on it,

00:04:13   Intel site says 16, but if you want the RAM to be soldered

00:04:17   the circuit board, not like a DIMM or anything like that, that the Core RAM only has two

00:04:21   channels and it's 4 gigs per channel for RAM that's soldered onto the board and thus the

00:04:25   limit of 8.

00:04:26   And on Intel's site it did say, you know, maximum RAM, and then it said in parentheses

00:04:30   depending on type.

00:04:31   I could not dig my way to whatever document gives the more verbose explanation, yeah,

00:04:35   depending on type, what does that mean?

00:04:36   Like that leads me to believe maybe yeah, if you have DIMMs you can use 16, but if you

00:04:40   have soldered to the board you're limited to 8.

00:04:42   I'm inclined to believe these people, I just couldn't find the documentation to back it

00:04:44   up.

00:04:45   makes sense, you know, like this is the smallest of the small low-powered, you know, chipsets

00:04:50   for laptops and Apple definitely is soldering their RAM to a board and we do see machines

00:04:55   out there with 16 with the same chip, but maybe they're not soldering it to the board.

00:04:58   So it's entirely plausible, makes sense to me.

00:05:01   Yeah, and you know, looking at it from Intel's point of view, this is a really low-end chip.

00:05:06   I mean, it's going in some really like, you know, sexy laptops that we all want, but the

00:05:11   The reality is these are low end parts.

00:05:13   These are slow, they're very, very low power.

00:05:16   That's why they're slow.

00:05:17   They have to be really low power.

00:05:19   They're going into these very physically small designs

00:05:21   with very few chips.

00:05:23   And this leads us very well into our next follow up point

00:05:26   on this, which is, John, you've been begging

00:05:29   for a long time, months, years,

00:05:33   on somebody to give you a good reason

00:05:36   why there is only one USB port on this machine.

00:05:39   - Let me stop you there because this is old.

00:05:41   This is all a follow-up and I don't consider it.

00:05:43   You can go continue to explain it,

00:05:44   but I've seen this before.

00:05:45   And like I said, I gotta see the technical docs.

00:05:48   I gotta see the sourcing.

00:05:49   Otherwise it's just, you know, anyway, go on.

00:05:52   - Well, so we got two possible explanations here.

00:05:56   The first one, which I think is a little bit less solid,

00:05:59   is from Chris Jones, who says that the PCH,

00:06:04   which is what I think that used to be called

00:06:05   the Southbridge, the platform controller hub

00:06:08   or whatever it's called,

00:06:09   that's the chip on the motherboard

00:06:10   those that don't know, that controls most of the IO stuff, especially the slower IO

00:06:15   stuff. So not like RAM and GPUs, which is all I believe now directly controlled by the

00:06:19   CPU and the entire lineup, but now it's like USB stuff basically. And so the PCH integrated

00:06:25   into this chipset by Intel provides four USB 3 connections. A typical MacBook uses one

00:06:32   USB connection internally for Bluetooth, one for the keyboard and trackpad, and one for

00:06:36   with a FaceTime camera, leaving one connection left

00:06:39   for the USB Type-C port.

00:06:41   And for Apple to add more ports,

00:06:43   if they wanted them to be USB 3,

00:06:45   would require them to add a separate USB controller,

00:06:48   which should be another chip on the board.

00:06:50   And so that costs board space, that costs power,

00:06:53   that costs money.

00:06:54   So all these costs to that,

00:06:56   they probably chose not to do it.

00:06:58   Now, this might be a little bit unreliable of a reason

00:07:02   because, and as Chris points out,

00:07:06   the USB 2.0 ports are counted separately.

00:07:09   And I checked on my MacBook Pro,

00:07:11   which is granted three years old,

00:07:13   but I checked on that and the keyboard

00:07:16   and Bluetooth controller are plugged

00:07:18   into the USB 2.0 bus on mine.

00:07:21   - That's what I was gonna get at.

00:07:22   I remember back in the day,

00:07:23   I think some internal components on PowerBooks then

00:07:26   were on the ADB.

00:07:28   - Wow.

00:07:29   - They're gonna use the smallest,

00:07:30   lowest cost connection possible for the internal component.

00:07:34   So why does the track need USB 3 versus USB 2?

00:07:38   You know, and same thing for a 480p camera.

00:07:41   So that's why, this is kind of like,

00:07:44   you have to use connections for these things.

00:07:45   You can't, like, it just doesn't make sense to me.

00:07:47   Like, why would you use USB 3 connection for the camera?

00:07:52   Right?

00:07:54   - Yeah, and the keyboard too.

00:07:55   I mean, like, yeah, there's not--

00:07:56   - Yeah, especially the keyboard.

00:07:57   Like, there's not a high bandwidth of device.

00:07:58   - Yeah, so this is a good theory.

00:08:01   I'm not sure that it applies here though.

00:08:04   But the better reason-

00:08:05   - I think this is worse, but go on.

00:08:07   - Okay.

00:08:07   The better reason as pointed out by K period,

00:08:10   is that due to limitations of the integrated Intel GPU

00:08:15   in this fanless low power chipset,

00:08:17   it is not possible to drive two external displays

00:08:21   at very high resolutions along with the internal panel.

00:08:23   So anything I believe past 1080p,

00:08:26   it's considered a high resolution.

00:08:28   It can't drive two externals.

00:08:29   It can only do one external at those resolutions

00:08:32   plus the built-in panel.

00:08:33   And so if there are multiple USB-C ports,

00:08:36   and assuming you could plug a display into a USB-C port,

00:08:40   then only one of them could reasonably drive a display.

00:08:43   And so there would be this weird situation

00:08:45   where you'd have these two identical ports,

00:08:47   only one of which can drive a high resolution display,

00:08:49   but both of which possibly might be able

00:08:51   to drive low resolution, it'd be weird.

00:08:53   So that I think is a pretty good reason.

00:08:55   - I think it's a bad reason for a couple of reasons.

00:08:58   One, we already established when we were trying to figure

00:09:00   out if it had mirroring, remember, like,

00:09:01   can it do mirroring or can it do extended display and I think you looked it up and said oh it says

00:09:05   right here on the specs page it has mirroring and also dual display dual meaning two this machine

00:09:11   supports two displays that's what the Apple specs say that's what the machine does if you have it

00:09:15   with two identical ports you plug a monitor into one then you get a second monitor and you plug

00:09:18   into the second one you're like what the hell the second monitor isn't working it only supports two

00:09:21   displays it says it right there on the spec page there's no ambiguity would you be like enraged or

00:09:26   confused by the fact that you can't support three displays the machine only supports two for years

00:09:30   "Laptops only support two displays."

00:09:32   It's not like you just keep plugging displays

00:09:33   in willy-nilly.

00:09:34   It only supports two displays.

00:09:36   Having another USB port puts 17 USB ports in there.

00:09:39   People are like, "Now I can have 17 displays."

00:09:40   No, you gotta go to the text specs page.

00:09:42   Say, "How many displays can I drive from this thing?"

00:09:44   So that makes no sense to me.

00:09:46   Like the people would somehow be confused

00:09:47   or angry or disappointed that the machine

00:09:50   that clearly says supports dual displays

00:09:52   can only support dual displays.

00:09:54   - Well, okay, I disagree that that's a valid reason,

00:09:56   but I at least, we'll have to agree to disagree on this,

00:10:00   which is a phrase I hate.

00:10:01   - So what do you think?

00:10:02   Like they would say, well, we could put two USB ports

00:10:04   in this thing, but we can only support two displays,

00:10:07   so we better get rid of that port.

00:10:08   Like that makes sense to you?

00:10:09   That's the kind of reasoning you would support?

00:10:11   - Well, what I see here are a bunch of smaller reasons

00:10:14   that potentially if you add all these reasons up

00:10:18   might be enough justification.

00:10:19   And by the way, and we heard a theory from a few people

00:10:22   that I want to address, people saying that Apple

00:10:26   is artificially only giving one port,

00:10:28   That way they can sell an upgraded model next year

00:10:31   or whenever with two ports

00:10:32   and people will buy the upgraded model.

00:10:34   - What do you mean by upgraded?

00:10:35   Like just the next revision of the machine?

00:10:36   - Yeah, exactly.

00:10:37   - That doesn't make any sense.

00:10:38   - Right, exactly.

00:10:39   We hear this theory a lot.

00:10:40   Whenever there's any limitation,

00:10:41   we usually hear from a handful of people like this

00:10:43   who are like, well, they're just artificially

00:10:45   keeping that down so they can release it next year

00:10:47   and have everybody upgrade.

00:10:48   And I don't think, I mean, I don't know how Apple works

00:10:52   internally with regard to decisions like that, but--

00:10:54   - That's not how any business works.

00:10:55   So it's like going to a sandwich shop,

00:10:56   Let's give them a little bit crappier sandwich today. So tomorrow we can sell them the better one

00:11:00   They're not gonna come back and you sell my product doesn't satisfy them. They're not gonna say

00:11:04   Well, I now I have to buy the new one next year

00:11:06   Like if you get a car and it's not a great car you maybe look at a different car maker next time you're gonna say

00:11:11   Damn it. They just did this all by the better Honda next year

00:11:14   No, you're just gonna buy a Honda if you get a product you get a product is not satisfactory

00:11:17   They're not an intentionally handicapping their products with the goal of we'll get them next time

00:11:23   that'll make them buy a new computer sooner.

00:11:25   It just doesn't make sense to me.

00:11:26   - Exactly, I mean there's so many reasons

00:11:28   why products have limitations in one generation,

00:11:31   in the next generation they're lifted,

00:11:33   or things are faster or better or whatever.

00:11:36   And usually it's regards to reasonable,

00:11:38   justifiable reasons like availability or costs

00:11:41   or things like that, or just not being feasible yet,

00:11:46   or having major trade-offs, major downsides.

00:11:49   So that's, I don't think any, and by the way,

00:11:52   Most people don't buy every generation of a product.

00:11:56   And most people don't follow things so closely

00:11:59   that they would even know.

00:12:00   Most of Apple's customers, if they buy this machine

00:12:02   and one comes out next year with two ports--

00:12:05   - They're not shopping for a computer then, they don't know.

00:12:06   - Right, they won't know until that computer dies

00:12:09   or gets too slow to be usable or the battery

00:12:11   starts wearing out really badly,

00:12:12   and they go in two or three years or more

00:12:15   and look at a new computer.

00:12:16   That's when they're gonna see what's available then,

00:12:18   which might be totally different.

00:12:19   - Usually much more, it's not like phones,

00:12:21   you're lucky they go every two years but some people feel like all of my

00:12:25   contracts over now I have this freedom period and whatever but max people just

00:12:29   use them it's you know I don't know what the upper it's like a lot of the max but

00:12:32   I think it's way longer than any other thing and certainly not one year I mean

00:12:37   even even Marco doesn't buy new max every year no I just said I'm using I'm

00:12:40   using a three-year-old MacBook Pro as well the iMac and the Mac Pro is that's

00:12:44   true I think that was a special case though before that I let my things last

00:12:47   it pretty long because I kept buying Mac pros John is your is your Mac Pro hit a

00:12:51   - Have you been in a decade yet or no?

00:12:53   - Well, seven years, it's hanging in there.

00:12:55   - God, that's a closer answer than I expected, if I'm honest.

00:12:58   - The funny thing is, so I took a trip last week to England

00:13:02   and I was using my laptop very heavily

00:13:04   and every time I used my laptop, I realized,

00:13:07   with the exception of the screen retention,

00:13:09   which I could get fixed for, I think, like $400,

00:13:12   somebody told me it would be about that, I don't know.

00:13:14   I'm probably not gonna get it fixed, probably not worth it,

00:13:16   but this machine I got was the base model, the 1999 model,

00:13:20   the base model that came out three years ago,

00:13:23   it was the first Retina 15 inch.

00:13:25   And I was looking, just out of curiosity,

00:13:26   I was looking like, you know,

00:13:27   if I wanted to replace this today,

00:13:30   you know, if it broke or if I wanted to replace it

00:13:32   this summer with Broadwell, what would I replace it with?

00:13:34   What configuration?

00:13:35   And looked at the configurations that are available today,

00:13:38   and I would get the base model again.

00:13:39   It's like, the specs are so good.

00:13:41   Now it's 16 gigs of RAM, mine is eight.

00:13:43   It's a faster CPU, same disk space,

00:13:46   but I don't need a lot of space

00:13:47   'cause it's not my primary computer.

00:13:48   And so it's no big deal.

00:13:50   So like, I think I would, you know,

00:13:53   I think if, if Broadwalk comes out this summer,

00:13:56   like I said, you know, I have a family member who,

00:13:58   who I kind of need to hand this down to pretty soon.

00:14:00   So if Broadwalk comes out this summer

00:14:02   and it's a reasonable update,

00:14:03   I'm gonna buy the base model again, probably.

00:14:05   If I didn't have a good reason to upgrade,

00:14:08   I would keep using this one for another year or two,

00:14:11   at least, I mean, I would guess the,

00:14:13   the average duration of a Mac owner, you know,

00:14:17   between, between upgrading the computers

00:14:18   probably three years or more.

00:14:21   - I mean, I've had my work computer for three years.

00:14:24   I've had my personal computer for three-ish years.

00:14:27   I probably will be getting a new machine,

00:14:31   a new machine for myself sometime soon.

00:14:33   And I know work is on a three-year cycle.

00:14:35   So I might be rocking two different new Macs this year.

00:14:39   I don't know, we'll see what happens.

00:14:40   But yeah, I mean, a three-year cycle is not unreasonable.

00:14:43   And I think most people would actually go

00:14:46   on an even longer cycle.

00:14:48   And especially for those like myself who have machines that have spinning platters in them,

00:14:54   even just an SSD can make a tremendous difference.

00:14:58   Our first sponsor is Cards Against Humanity.

00:15:02   Now once again they have not given me any script to read and instead they have sent

00:15:05   Jon another toaster to review.

00:15:07   So Jon, what toaster do you have this week and what are your thoughts on it?

00:15:13   This week I have the Hamilton Beach 31230.

00:15:16   They have the idea of taking letters out

00:15:19   of their model number, which I don't know if it

00:15:20   makes it worse or better.

00:15:21   I guess probably better.

00:15:22   It can't be that much worse than the other ones we've been

00:15:24   seeing.

00:15:24   Yeah, they all have like a name like, you know,

00:15:27   set it and forget it, toaster oven, you know,

00:15:29   like there's some word that's on the cover.

00:15:31   That's not the name of the product.

00:15:32   It's the model number.

00:15:33   Anyway, this is a big one.

00:15:34   This is a very big toaster.

00:15:36   The inside is about the same size as my Breville 650XL,

00:15:40   which is a pretty big toaster.

00:15:41   You can easily fit four slices of bread in it.

00:15:43   But the outside of this thing, like, first of all,

00:15:45   left and right side and back have curves on them, so it's wider than you think it is.

00:15:49   Like you look at it from the front and you think just the brightly colored rectangle

00:15:51   side but it has bulges, like big metal bulges. So that adds a couple inches on either side

00:15:56   and in the back. And the thing to the right of the toaster where all the buttons are is

00:15:59   pretty thick. So this is, I think this is probably as big as the Breville version of

00:16:02   mine that has convection. And I think that's probably what makes this thing larger is that

00:16:06   this also has convection. So it's just the price you pay for convection, you get a much

00:16:10   bigger toaster. Well it's, it's shown in the Amazon pictures as containing what appears

00:16:14   to be either a very large chicken or a very small turkey.

00:16:17   Yeah, that's like a smallish chicken.

00:16:19   Like, it's the same size inside as my Breville,

00:16:22   but the outside is bigger.

00:16:23   So the interesting feature this has,

00:16:25   and you can see it in the picture,

00:16:26   is this thing comes with a probe thermometer

00:16:28   that's attached to the toaster

00:16:29   in a very poorly designed little door

00:16:32   that you shove the probe into, like a slot,

00:16:36   and then you wad up the rubber-coated wire for the probe,

00:16:39   and then you try to close this little door.

00:16:40   It's terrible.

00:16:41   Anyway, it does have a probe attached

00:16:43   which are food temperature so you can put the probe into your food and close

00:16:46   the door yes close it on your rubber surrounded thermometer wire thing like

00:16:51   the door will close all the way with the wire sort of shoved and pinched through

00:16:55   there which is weird and it also means there has to be kind of a gap around the

00:16:58   entire door to the toaster anyway you stick the probe in and you can you know

00:17:03   pick the desired temperature of the food and you just turn the thing on and it

00:17:05   will turn itself off when your food hits the correct temperature and it's got the

00:17:08   government food safety temperatures for different kinds of food like printed on

00:17:12   the door of the toaster in case you forget and I just take this time to remind everybody

00:17:16   that the government food safety temperatures for food are often crazy. Like they say you

00:17:22   should cook pork to 160 to 170 degrees. I invite everyone listening to this to cook

00:17:26   a pork chop to 170 degrees and then tell me how it tastes to them. It tastes like sawdust.

00:17:31   You cannot cook pork to 170 degrees. They do that for like, you know, prevention from

00:17:35   trigonosis or whatever. Anyway, all I'm saying is the government food safety temperatures

00:17:38   her food are super conservative. Yeah, it will kill every German that food, it will

00:17:43   also kill the food and it will be tasteless and terrible.

00:17:45   Oh god, please email Jon about this, not us.

00:17:47   If you die of Trigonosis, don't blame me, but I'm just, you know, feel free to cook

00:17:51   your pork to 170, but there's no way to live, just don't eat pork then.

00:17:54   Oh my god, we're going to hear from everybody on both sides of this argument and you realize

00:17:59   it.

00:18:00   No, everyone who knows anything about cooking pork will say yes, of course you can. Have

00:18:03   any of you ever cooked pork to 170?

00:18:05   I've never cooked pork.

00:18:06   Oh, you guys don't cook.

00:18:07   Yeah, the only time I ever cooked pork is bacon and that's a whole different ballgame.

00:18:11   Both of you don't cook.

00:18:12   No, I cook, just not that.

00:18:13   Alright.

00:18:15   Just not that.

00:18:16   Never in your whole life ever?

00:18:18   I mean, like Casey, I've cooked bacon.

00:18:20   But I don't really like eating pork chops, so I don't cook them.

00:18:24   Pork roast?

00:18:25   Nothing?

00:18:26   No, not even big hams.

00:18:27   No, I'm not really a huge pork fan.

00:18:29   Alright.

00:18:30   Well, now you've got angry letters from the pork friends.

00:18:34   Anyway.

00:18:35   The toaster as a toaster, I tried to do my typical toast off versus mine where you put

00:18:40   you know, cold toaster, put a piece of bread and each one right in the middle, start toasting,

00:18:44   see who wins.

00:18:45   That's how you know, I've been timing them all.

00:18:48   That the toast off was thwarted by the fact that this thing is humongous and my other

00:18:51   toaster is not particularly small.

00:18:53   And I tripped the circuit breaker in my kitchen halfway through the toasting process trying

00:18:56   to toast bread and bros.

00:18:57   This is a 1400 watt toaster oven.

00:19:01   I flipped the breaker and tried again when the toasters were cooled one at a time.

00:19:05   This is a slow toaster for toasting bread.

00:19:07   It is slower than my Breville.

00:19:08   It's the slowest one I've had.

00:19:10   It's large, it's cavernous, and it's got the, I think it's like resistive heating elements.

00:19:15   They're not the quartz ones that are like shiny and thick and light up quickly.

00:19:18   These are skinnier and dark and they slowly start to glow red.

00:19:22   It is really slow to toast.

00:19:23   I don't know if I could tolerate trying to cook toast in this thing because it's just

00:19:27   really slow.

00:19:28   Now do you have like a minutes measure like what what do you consider really slow?

00:19:32   I had I did time it in a stopwatch, but I just did the math to the subtracting from my toaster

00:19:38   It's like 30 seconds slower. I think it's like over three minutes, maybe four minutes like

00:19:42   Yeah, and I don't I don't know if this one is smart like my toaster because my toaster

00:19:46   As soon as you hit toast it will tell you how long it's going to take and how long it will take depends on the ambient

00:19:52   Temperature inside the toaster so the second piece of toast is way faster than the first one right right?

00:19:56   That's what's make it a smart toaster. Anyway, this one has no readout like that

00:19:59   Yeah, so speaking of the readouts

00:20:02   Like there's not great choices for all the stuff that you touch and you see on this toaster like the dials buttons and displays

00:20:08   There are no dials. It's all buttons the the display is like one of those multi-segment displays

00:20:13   It's not a seven segment because it can make letters as well

00:20:16   So it's not just the the numbers and stuff and it you know

00:20:18   Cuz I just I think it has like the diagonal line for like the letter N and stuff

00:20:22   I don't know. Maybe that's a seven eight nine ten eleven twelve segment display

00:20:25   But it lights up and it tries to do this scrolling stuff. Like when you hit toast it says C N T R blank R

00:20:31   A C K blank C N T R blank is trying to tell you center rack

00:20:36   And this is something people our age or my age anyway might not realize that modern toasters

00:20:41   Have a movable rack and they expect you to have the rack in the middle of the toaster like height wise now at the bottom

00:20:48   Of the toaster now at the top of the toaster directly in the middle

00:20:51   Which looks really weird for people like me who grew up with the black and deck toaster where the rack was always at the bottom

00:20:55   But it makes sense from an even toasting perspective because you want to be equal distance from the heating elements

00:21:00   If you're right against the bottom heating elements, the bottom is gonna cook way faster than the top

00:21:03   Anyway, that little display doesn't tell you anything useful

00:21:07   It doesn't tell you how long it's gonna take doesn't give you a countdown time or it just says it's you know toasting and

00:21:11   The buttons in the thing are membrane buttons like the fix was brought up on a podcast listen to recently

00:21:18   Maybe it was on back to work the Atari 400 membrane keyboard

00:21:21   You guys don't remember that but do you know what I'm talking about when I say a membrane keyboard? Yeah

00:21:24   It's like the little like it's like bubbles and bubbles of plastic that are that they're just like held up over the surface the entire

00:21:30   Set of buttons that control this entire toaster are all membrane buttons and every time you press one

00:21:34   It's not feels like you're pressing the entire membrane down like it's it is not an expensive feeling thing

00:21:40   The the rack doesn't pull out when the door opens the the rack is flimsy the tray comes with their flimsy

00:21:46   If you want to use it as like a this is more like a miniature oven

00:21:49   Less like it, you know, I know they're all like that

00:21:51   "Yo, it's a miniature oven."

00:21:52   But this performs so poorly on toaster-related things

00:21:55   where it's a frequently used appliance

00:21:57   and you're going back to it again and again

00:21:58   to cook lots of toast in the morning

00:21:59   and to do stuff like that.

00:22:00   This is more like what they show on the cover.

00:22:02   If you wanna cook a chicken and put a propter monitor in it

00:22:04   and it's like a smaller version of an oven,

00:22:05   then you're not bothered so much by the button business.

00:22:08   The UI isn't terrible.

00:22:09   The buttons, you basically don't need to read the manual.

00:22:11   You can look at the buttons and figure it out,

00:22:12   but there's lots of waiting for everything.

00:22:14   You press a button and it says Center Rack,

00:22:16   and you're like, "Are you waiting for me to move the rack?

00:22:18   "Are you gonna start toasting?"

00:22:20   and there's no countdown to tell you when it has started.

00:22:22   Very often I've had to open it up and stick my hand inside

00:22:24   to see if it's starting to get hot

00:22:26   because there's no visual indication

00:22:27   that it is doing what I asked it to do,

00:22:29   pushing the little membrane buttons.

00:22:30   Yeah, not a fan.

00:22:33   - Wow.

00:22:36   - So how do you really feel, Jon?

00:22:39   - I mean, it's not terrible.

00:22:40   It's a good little oven,

00:22:41   like for cooking small things in an oven,

00:22:44   but I would not use this as a toaster.

00:22:46   And it's just humongous and weird.

00:22:49   Now, it looks like in their picture,

00:22:51   so you said they've selected a misleadingly sized chicken

00:22:56   for the top picture there with the probe.

00:22:58   And then I see their bread showing

00:23:00   that it's a six-slice toaster.

00:23:02   That is a very strange proportion

00:23:05   that those bread slices have,

00:23:06   where they look really small and thickly cut.

00:23:09   - It's like Texas toast or something.

00:23:11   - You could not fit six slices of regular sandwich bread

00:23:13   in this thing, it's a four-slice toaster.

00:23:14   First of all, you do have to have some space

00:23:16   around the toast, otherwise it doesn't,

00:23:17   you know, crisp up around the edges.

00:23:19   And second of all, I don't think I could wedge

00:23:21   three pieces of bread in this thing side by side.

00:23:23   Just regular sandwich bread, you know,

00:23:25   it's not that big.

00:23:27   - Okay, well thank you Cards Against Humanity

00:23:30   for giving us that toaster extravaganza one more time.

00:23:35   Aye yi yi.

00:23:36   All right, so back to the follow up.

00:23:38   Do we wanna talk about what it's like to build RAM?

00:23:41   - Oh, actually right before that,

00:23:43   hopefully the final thing on the MacBook limitations.

00:23:47   I think a lot of our questions will be answered

00:23:50   when the new MacBook Pros come out,

00:23:54   because we assume they'll all have USB Type-C connectors

00:23:58   on them, and we also assume they're not gonna have

00:24:00   one port, right?

00:24:02   So all of these questions about what it takes

00:24:04   to have more than one port and how Apple handles

00:24:07   the possible confusion of like,

00:24:10   oh, can you power it from both of them?

00:24:11   Can I put four monitors in

00:24:13   because there's four USB Type-C ports?

00:24:15   all of those things will be answered,

00:24:17   not by seeing whether Marques is right

00:24:20   about the next version of this new MacBook having two ports,

00:24:23   but by seeing what they do to the MacBook Pro.

00:24:26   I mean, if they put one port in the MacBook Pro,

00:24:28   it is not illuminating,

00:24:29   but I'm assuming they're not gonna have one port

00:24:30   in the MacBook Pro, and then we're gonna see,

00:24:32   all these questions about possible confusion,

00:24:35   how does Apple answer them with a product

00:24:36   that they basically have to have

00:24:37   more than one USB Type-C port on it?

00:24:40   - That's a fair point, but I think a lot of these reasons

00:24:44   really only apply with this with the chipset

00:24:46   and stuff like that.

00:24:46   So I'd say about half of the reasons

00:24:49   that we've been sent in.

00:24:50   - Yeah, I just mean like the confusion reasons,

00:24:52   like oh, you can't charge for more than one

00:24:53   or it's confusing, I don't know what I can plug in

00:24:55   and if it has more ports then it supports monitors

00:24:58   'cause maybe it supports three monitors

00:24:59   but has four ports, you know.

00:25:00   - Right, right, that's fair.

00:25:01   All right.

00:25:03   Finally, RAM.

00:25:05   - Yeah, last show I made an offhand comment talking about,

00:25:07   we were talking about Skylake

00:25:08   and the process sizes and everything

00:25:10   And I said that when they do a new process size,

00:25:14   they fab RAM first because it's very regular

00:25:16   and it's easier to fab than the complicated logic in a CPU.

00:25:18   And Joel wrote in to say that either that information

00:25:22   was always wrong or at the very least it's not true anymore

00:25:24   because apparently fabbing RAM is actually harder

00:25:26   than pure logic chips these days

00:25:28   because the RAM has more capacitors in it

00:25:33   and yield and reliability problems in DRAM

00:25:35   are almost always due to the manufacturing problems

00:25:37   with the capacitors, which are very tightly packed

00:25:38   and have high aspect ratios, whatever that means.

00:25:42   He wrote in a very detailed explanation

00:25:43   that I found very convincing

00:25:44   that that is not the case anymore.

00:25:46   In fact, the RAM is often fabbed

00:25:47   at one to two generations behind

00:25:49   what logic is fabbed at these days.

00:25:51   I tried to do some googling to see

00:25:52   where did I get this idea that they used to fab RAM first

00:25:55   on a new process size to get the kinks worked out of it.

00:25:57   And I just did not know what the hell to Google for.

00:25:59   I'm pretty sure it's true,

00:26:00   but it could be knowledge from like the '80s for all I know.

00:26:02   So, so much has changed in silicon chip making these days

00:26:06   that it's probably just outdated info.

00:26:08   If anyone does know what the hell I'm remembering,

00:26:11   if I am remembering something,

00:26:12   please do send in the link so I can see if I'm crazy.

00:26:15   - See, I don't even have to say,

00:26:16   please only one person send that to us,

00:26:17   'cause I know that the number of people

00:26:18   who are gonna send that is gonna be between zero and one.

00:26:21   - Anybody who read "Bite Magazine" in the '80s

00:26:23   probably knows it.

00:26:24   - Goodness.

00:26:25   Okay, so a little bit about the new trackpad.

00:26:30   Apple apparently has updated some apps to use it,

00:26:33   including iMovie.

00:26:35   I don't know which one of you entered this in the document,

00:26:39   but I know almost nothing about this.

00:26:41   - I entered in that.

00:26:42   You didn't read these stories?

00:26:43   Like they updated like a bunch of their apps to, you know,

00:26:46   to support the new Force Touch track pad.

00:26:49   But the most interesting one I thought was iMovie,

00:26:52   where they updated it so like when you're dragging

00:26:54   along the clips, you can like feel when you hit the end

00:26:56   of the clip, like dragging the little slider along the,

00:26:59   you know, in iMovie they show the-

00:27:00   - Yeah, I've heard that phrase, but like how?

00:27:03   What are you feeling?

00:27:04   So here's the thing about this using force touch for the UI.

00:27:07   This is a very,

00:27:08   it's almost a one dimensional output device.

00:27:11   All it does is vibrate.

00:27:12   Maybe you can vibrate different amounts

00:27:13   or different, you know, different amplitude

00:27:16   and possibly different frequency, but this is not,

00:27:19   you're not actually feeling anything.

00:27:21   It is very, very limited.

00:27:23   It's kind of like, you know,

00:27:23   when they added the rumble pack in Star Fox 64,

00:27:25   where it was like, well, all it does is rumble.

00:27:28   Yeah, you can kind of make it rumble different amounts,

00:27:30   rumble very, you know, in bursts or whatever,

00:27:33   but it is a very limited feedback device.

00:27:34   So all of it has to kind of be

00:27:36   in simulating some kind of bump, right?

00:27:38   So if you wanna feel

00:27:39   when you're scrubbing a little cursor along a clip,

00:27:42   when you've hit the end, it goes bzzt,

00:27:43   and vibrate slightly, I'm assuming.

00:27:46   I haven't tried this in person,

00:27:47   I've just read the articles,

00:27:48   but this is a new, I don't know what you'd call it,

00:27:51   a new, not dimension, a new vector

00:27:54   for output from the device.

00:27:56   You've got visual, you've got sound,

00:27:57   and now you've got,

00:27:58   it can make you feel something under your finger.

00:28:01   Not very complicated things,

00:28:03   basically just some kind of vibration

00:28:05   of different strength and timing,

00:28:09   but that's not nothing.

00:28:10   And it's the type of thing where,

00:28:12   we all just assume Force Touch will come

00:28:14   to all the iOS devices and everything.

00:28:16   And Force Touch, by the way, on the watch,

00:28:17   it's only one way, right?

00:28:19   - What do you mean?

00:28:20   - You press on the watch of varying amounts

00:28:21   and it senses how much you're pressing.

00:28:23   It does not press back on your finger, right?

00:28:25   Is that-- - Well, no, but it,

00:28:28   see, this is why the nomenclature's so peculiar

00:28:31   because the Taptic Engine does,

00:28:35   God, I just had it on the tip of my tongue and I lost it,

00:28:37   but it'll tap you like--

00:28:39   - Yeah, it vibrates on your wrist,

00:28:40   but not in response to you pressing it, right?

00:28:43   It's not like you're scrolling through with your finger

00:28:46   on the phone, like swiping through screens,

00:28:48   and the phone vibrates to make you feel like

00:28:51   you feel something under your finger?

00:28:53   - I think that's correct, but I don't know.

00:28:56   - Whatever the case, on the MacBooks,

00:28:59   they are trying to make it as a way

00:29:00   so that you can sort of feel stuff on the screen

00:29:02   in a very limited way.

00:29:04   But even just in a very limited way,

00:29:05   it's like, well, if you're gonna put a four-step trackpad

00:29:07   in everything, and this is so easy to do,

00:29:10   and they have a very simple API for it,

00:29:12   and it adds just a little bit of,

00:29:14   it's the type of thing where

00:29:15   if you have any kind of tactile feedback,

00:29:18   it is another, what the hell's the word I'm looking for?

00:29:21   Another input channel.

00:29:22   - Dimension?

00:29:23   - No, it's not dimension.

00:29:24   Another input channel for your experience

00:29:26   that once you get used to it being there,

00:29:29   as long as it's not annoying,

00:29:30   the lack of it will feel wrong to you

00:29:32   in the same way that suddenly if you had to use a Mac

00:29:34   with closing your eyes or closing your ears.

00:29:35   And the same way they did things with sound,

00:29:37   like user interface sound,

00:29:39   it has to be done in a limited way.

00:29:40   If every time you scrolled a scroll bar or a scrolling view,

00:29:44   it made some whistle noise, you'd be like,

00:29:45   all right, turn that off immediately.

00:29:46   And I think most Mac users turn off the thing

00:29:51   that makes a sound when you're done.

00:29:53   Most sort of like people listening to this podcast,

00:29:55   I think turn off the finder sounds

00:29:56   that like crumple up paper when you empty the trash

00:29:58   or make a ding when you copy a file from one place

00:30:00   to the other, I don't know, maybe I'm crazy.

00:30:01   - Nope. - I don't.

00:30:02   - Neither do I. - You leave those on?

00:30:04   - Yes. - Oh my God,

00:30:05   I don't know what you guys are doing.

00:30:06   - How many files are you deleting

00:30:08   when it's such a big problem?

00:30:09   - It doesn't matter, just like that,

00:30:10   I don't want that to happen on my computer ever.

00:30:14   Just empty the trash, don't make a noise.

00:30:16   I mean, let's saw through the garage coming out

00:30:18   and singing me a song, I don't wanna see it.

00:30:19   (laughing)

00:30:21   - No, I mean, it's useful for me because usually,

00:30:23   'cause I don't know, does it do it,

00:30:24   I know the trash does, but does it do it

00:30:26   when you're moving files, if it's just like

00:30:27   a really quick immediate thing.

00:30:29   'Cause I know it does it after long operations.

00:30:31   - If you just copy it, it doesn't go bing,

00:30:32   I don't even know what the sounds are,

00:30:34   but I immediately turn them off.

00:30:36   But anyway, like--

00:30:37   - Well, it's useful feedback because when you have,

00:30:39   like first of all, somebody like me,

00:30:40   I very rarely empty the trash, I just forget to do it.

00:30:43   So when I do empty the trash,

00:30:44   it's a pretty big set of trash in there.

00:30:46   And you know, if I'm doing a big file move,

00:30:48   it might take a while.

00:30:49   So the sounds provide feedback to tell you when it's done.

00:30:51   - Yeah, anyway, what I'm getting at is it has to be done

00:30:54   in a subtle manner.

00:30:56   Like there's a right amount of sound feedback,

00:30:57   beeping for things or something like that makes sense,

00:31:00   but maybe not have a sound every time you move the cursor.

00:31:03   (imitates beeping)

00:31:04   You know, all that type of movie sounds.

00:31:06   It has to be.

00:31:07   And so the same thing with the Taptic feedback.

00:31:08   If you just get it when you hit the bump stops

00:31:10   in the clip and eye movie, that's fine.

00:31:11   But if you got it every time you scrolled it,

00:31:12   like vibrated under your finger in any app,

00:31:14   that would be too much.

00:31:15   So people will have to find the right balance here.

00:31:17   But I think once they do find that balance

00:31:19   and once it comes to every Apple device,

00:31:21   it's just a gimme that it's like,

00:31:23   this makes the experience richer,

00:31:25   even if it's so incredibly primitive at all,

00:31:27   this is like a vibrate a little bit.

00:31:28   Just think of like if your phone

00:31:29   didn't have a vibration motor in it,

00:31:32   how much worse a device would be,

00:31:33   just for that one little wiggly piece of metal inside it.

00:31:36   And how much they can do with that.

00:31:38   - I'm a little worried about developers

00:31:40   overusing this for a while,

00:31:41   and Apple also overusing this for a while.

00:31:44   I did finally get a chance to try one of these

00:31:48   in a store this week, so I was very happy about that.

00:31:51   I also initially didn't believe that it was that trackpad.

00:31:55   I thought, oh, this must be the old model.

00:31:57   'Cause it clicked.

00:31:57   It does feel different, but it's like a softer click.

00:32:02   And I know it's a setting, and I tried all the different,

00:32:05   I tried the whole range of settings they have there.

00:32:07   It is still a softer click.

00:32:10   It's less clicky, less feedback

00:32:12   than you got from the old one.

00:32:13   But it still feels like a click to me, and so it's great.

00:32:18   My worry, and when you do the double,

00:32:20   the deeper forced click, whatever they're calling that one,

00:32:24   that one is interesting, it feels fine.

00:32:27   My worry with that is that now we have

00:32:30   three different kinds of clicks.

00:32:32   It's kind of like Swift, where it looks simple,

00:32:35   and it seems simple, but it's actually

00:32:37   just hiding complexity.

00:32:39   - It's not hiding complexity.

00:32:40   Oh, God, we'll talk about Swift another time.

00:32:42   - Right, yeah, we sure will.

00:32:44   So it appears, by the trackpad,

00:32:47   appears as though you have one button, right? Like the main click. But we all know in reality

00:32:52   you have a secondary click, a right click, a control click, whatever you want to call

00:32:56   it. The right click menu is often a very, often does important things. So you often

00:33:02   need to know about it. So in reality you pretty much need to know two different clicks. The

00:33:07   fourth click is now a third one. It's not just a right click. I think it would be better

00:33:11   if it was just a right click. But it's not. It's now this third thing that like sometimes

00:33:16   it does a dictionary pop-up, sometimes it does quick look, sometimes it does other things.

00:33:20   And so now it's this third level of stuff that we have to either accidentally trigger

00:33:24   and be surprised by, which is annoying, or that we have to learn, which is, you know,

00:33:29   possibly tricky because now it's this third thing, or, and by the way, it's completely

00:33:33   inconsistent as to what it does on different things, or we have to ignore it in which case

00:33:37   it's a waste. So like, I wish they would have just kind of made it a right-click and just

00:33:42   kept it simpler.

00:33:43   I don't want to be right click just because I'm I'm concerned about how much force is going to take to do a force click

00:33:48   I wouldn't want to do it as a routine

00:33:50   It's not much you know and that's the other concern if it's not much

00:33:53   I hope it's adjustable somewhere if it's not much

00:33:55   Then I don't want people who are slow in doing a click who are very deliberate in doing a click to accidentally trigger a force

00:34:01   click because then you have to end up turning it off for them because they're like

00:34:03   I'm they're just kind of they're like I tried to click on something, but a dictionary definition came up

00:34:07   It's like well you just held it a little bit too long right and so that then you just have to disable it for them

00:34:11   I'm hoping it if you're able to disable it it would be better if there was like a delay

00:34:14   And you could just crank the delay up so that the one time a month

00:34:17   I have to do a force click though to sit there and hold their finger down

00:34:19   Pressing for like three seconds, then the dictionary definition come up

00:34:22   Maybe happy with that like I can see someone getting used to that and using that because if you try to teach them

00:34:26   Command option shift D. Nobody remembers it or whatever the hell that that thing is what it reminded me a lot of was on automatic

00:34:33   BMWs and I think most German cars are like this, but certainly BMWs you could you can floor it and then

00:34:40   and the pedal stops and then you can kind of push through what appears to be the floorboard

00:34:47   and then there's a little bit more depth of the pedal which is I think they call it a

00:34:51   kick down mode or something like that which is you telling the car no really freaking

00:34:57   go and that's a lot what this force click whatever it's called felt like.

00:35:01   You would click and then push a little bit harder and then you'd get a second click out

00:35:06   of it.

00:35:07   Does it tell the car to just downshift?

00:35:09   Is that what it's trying to do?

00:35:10   automatic yeah it'll tell it to downshift as much as possible so what does it do in a manual

00:35:14   i don't have one in my car nothing right it's just it's just a placebo yeah what i brought i

00:35:20   still have not tried the force click track but i never really wanted to but what it brings to

00:35:23   mind to me of course is the uh and uh if john roder could ever listen to this podcast he can correct

00:35:28   me but he doesn't so he won't haha uh the uh the flight stick in the f-16 uh doesn't move i believe

00:35:35   as in it's like force touch type thing it does not move around you just apply forces to it

00:35:39   And that may seem like how can you like how can you fly a plane with a with a stick that doesn't move at all?

00:35:45   It's if this is f16 or the fd-18 perhaps. It's both someone will send us the the correction

00:35:49   But it's I imagine it's like the force touch trackpad where you just get used to the fact that the thing doesn't move

00:35:55   I don't even think it has any haptic feedback

00:35:57   It's just like that's the way you you do this thing by applying force to different directions to a thing that doesn't move so sitting

00:36:02   There are applying varying amounts of force to a glass surface that never moves and probably doesn't even flex that much

00:36:07   seems weird but

00:36:09   As long as there's some kind of visual or tactile feedback

00:36:13   that you are accomplishing what you meant to do,

00:36:15   people will just get used to it.

00:36:16   - Our second sponsor this week is Automattic,

00:36:20   your smart driving assistant on your smartphone.

00:36:22   Go to automatic.com/atp.

00:36:26   Automattic is basically this little thing

00:36:28   that plugs into your OBD2 port.

00:36:30   This is the little diagnostic port that's usually in the,

00:36:32   is it the driver's side footwell or the passenger?

00:36:35   - Drivers.

00:36:36   - Yeah, driver's side footwell.

00:36:37   It's a little Bluetooth thing that plugs into that port

00:36:38   and it connects your iPhone or Android phone

00:36:41   to your car, basically.

00:36:43   So they have apps that run on iPhone and Android,

00:36:45   and it talks to your car, and it can tell you

00:36:48   where you've driven, how efficiently,

00:36:50   even as you're driving, it can monitor real-time stats,

00:36:53   it can monitor your fuel usage.

00:36:55   If you want to, say, make a little ding

00:36:57   if you're accelerating too hard,

00:36:59   to kind of train yourself to save gas,

00:37:01   it can do that for you.

00:37:03   It can also, of course, it can track your overall economy

00:37:06   as you're taking trips and everything,

00:37:08   and you can see pretty graphs and everything,

00:37:10   and you can see, oh well, my average this week

00:37:12   is pretty bad, or my average this week is doing great,

00:37:14   give you all this great feedback.

00:37:16   It could also call emergency services for you

00:37:19   in a serious crash.

00:37:21   That is pretty cool, and that could really,

00:37:23   you know, that could be a serious benefit there.

00:37:25   Also, because it's plugged into the diagnostic port,

00:37:27   it can diagnose your engine light.

00:37:29   If you have a check engine light,

00:37:30   any kind of error code in your car,

00:37:32   it can tell you what the code means in more detail

00:37:34   usually than what your car is telling you.

00:37:36   It can also help clear the code.

00:37:38   If it's some like one time thing,

00:37:40   some cars the code won't clear itself.

00:37:42   If like, you know, one time you left the gas cap

00:37:44   a little loose, sometimes it won't clear itself

00:37:46   after you fix it, automatic can clear it for you.

00:37:48   It also helps you remember where you are parked

00:37:50   because again, it has the smarts of your car plus your phone

00:37:53   so it knows where you are

00:37:54   and whether your car is turned off

00:37:56   so it can tell you where you parked.

00:37:58   It also has hooks with the Nest Learning Thermostat.

00:38:01   It has a whole API now.

00:38:03   It has integration with IFTTT,

00:38:06   and so one of the many things it can control

00:38:08   is an S thermostat.

00:38:09   And this lets you do things like turn on your heating

00:38:11   or AC as you're heading home from work automatically,

00:38:15   so that by the time you get home, it's the right temperature

00:38:17   and all the rest of the day it was saving energy.

00:38:20   So this is really great stuff.

00:38:21   The whole API, you can do quite a lot with this thing.

00:38:24   Go to automatic.com/ATP.

00:38:27   Now normally, this sells for $100.

00:38:29   And this is great because there's no monthly fee.

00:38:32   It's just you buy the thing for 100 bucks up front

00:38:35   and that's it.

00:38:36   You get all the services that it offers

00:38:38   for the life of the device.

00:38:39   And so again, no monthly fees.

00:38:42   Just 100 bucks up front.

00:38:43   We have a special offer now.

00:38:45   It's 20% off.

00:38:46   So if you buy it through automatic.com/ATP,

00:38:49   our special link, it is just 80 bucks.

00:38:52   That includes free shipping, free two-day shipping

00:38:56   and you have a 45-day return policy.

00:38:58   So if you end up not liking it for whatever reason,

00:39:01   You have 45 days to figure that out and return it.

00:39:03   So really it's no risk.

00:39:04   So go to automatic.com/ATP, 80 bucks, free shipping,

00:39:09   no monthly fees, 45 day return policy.

00:39:11   Thanks a lot to Automattic.

00:39:12   - All right.

00:39:15   So speaking of the Force Touch trackpad,

00:39:19   apparently there may be or may not be

00:39:22   a missing three finger drag.

00:39:23   And not that I was planning on buying a MacBook,

00:39:25   but I am thinking, like I said,

00:39:27   of buying one of the other machines

00:39:29   that may have this trackpad.

00:39:30   And I rely on three finger swipes to do spaces, which I love.

00:39:37   And I'm assuming, Jon, you hate because you hate anything moving anywhere on your computer.

00:39:41   Jon Sorrentino That's not why I hate spaces, but I do hate them.

00:39:43   Cote, why do you hate spaces?

00:39:45   Because if I don't ask, I'm going to, I'm going to wonder the rest of the episode.

00:39:48   Jon Sorrentino I just couldn't, well, the animation is an annoyance, but I also could never get a workflow set up where I didn't wonder on which screen a window.

00:39:58   Well, I could never figure out like this is gonna be the screen for X

00:40:00   This is gonna be the screen for Y or if I tried to make a decision like that through using the system. I would

00:40:06   Inadvertently violate that by like accidentally opening a web browser in this in the session in the space

00:40:11   That is not for that web browser like it just never I just don't have a system for it

00:40:15   So it just ends up making it making me have to look for stuff in two places

00:40:18   It and maybe it's just me. Maybe it's the way spaces work

00:40:21   Of course spaces have changed how they work over the years, but it's a simplification. I really just same reason I don't have two monitors

00:40:26   I just want one big monitor and that's it

00:40:28   I must say though, I am surprised,

00:40:31   because you are such a window person

00:40:34   and you're so into spatial organization of your windows,

00:40:37   it does surprise me that both you don't want

00:40:39   a second monitor and that also you don't want

00:40:41   more space with spaces.

00:40:42   - Yeah, the idea is I want everything to be within reach

00:40:45   and if I have to do a gesture,

00:40:48   and it's also I don't use track pads,

00:40:49   like what Casey was saying,

00:40:50   I think having to be able to just,

00:40:52   when I use a very small laptop,

00:40:55   I'm more likely to both go full screen in apps

00:40:57   and use spaces because if you have that sort of swipe over

00:41:00   to find something, that is more natural,

00:41:02   but I don't use a trackpad on my desktop,

00:41:03   and so then it's like control left or right arrow

00:41:05   or whatever.

00:41:06   - Yeah, it's a pretty easy shortcut.

00:41:08   - I know, but it just makes it feel like things

00:41:11   are farther away from my reach.

00:41:12   It's like putting things in a folder

00:41:14   in the iOS home screen.

00:41:17   It just makes things feel farther away from me, not closer.

00:41:19   I'd rather have them all on the same screen

00:41:21   in a big jumbled pile than spread out

00:41:22   on two different monitors.

00:41:24   - And this is the same reason why I can never use any mouse

00:41:27   but the magic mouse because on the magic mouse it's a two finger swipe to do the same action

00:41:32   and um and so from what i'm being told and from what i've seen in the chat just a moment

00:41:37   ago apparently it's still possible but it's moved into accessibility preferences which

00:41:43   is weird you saw it in the chat did you as well as the notes yes yes the notes didn't

00:41:49   i just say that i know but like you were like it may or may not be i the notes say unequivocally

00:41:54   with a link to a screenshot showing you where this option is in the accessibility prefs.

00:41:59   Well, I'm sorry I didn't do enough homework, John.

00:42:01   There's no, no, you gotta look for the question mark. Question mark was there.

00:42:05   Breaking news, breaking news, this is absolutely factual that this is in the accessibility

00:42:10   preference pane. My sources are telling me that that is absolutely true.

00:42:14   Your sources, you have anonymous tips are telling you, look at this,

00:42:18   look at the screenshot in the show notes.

00:42:22   Wow. Oh goodness. All right, last piece of follow-up. Port motivation sent in by Mila.

00:42:28   Yeah, this is another philosophical thing, and it ties into Skylake, which we kept

00:42:32   pushing off when we talked about its delay, but we'll talk about it a little bit later.

00:42:34   This is from Apple's website, I believe. "The most efficient way to charge a notebook is by

00:42:41   connecting to a charge report. As long as we are going to include a port for charging the new

00:42:44   MacBook, we wanted to make sure it was the most advanced and versatile one available."

00:42:48   This ties into also Schiller during the keynote saying,

00:42:52   you know, when's the most convenient time

00:42:53   to plug into a cable?

00:42:55   And this is a quote he says,

00:42:56   "That's when you want to charge quickly."

00:42:58   What do you mean charge quickly?

00:42:59   What do you mean the most efficient way

00:43:02   to charge a notebook?

00:43:03   Isn't it the only way to charge a notebook?

00:43:04   Charge quickly versus what?

00:43:05   Is there a slower way to charge a notebook?

00:43:07   Like that's it, you plug it in, right?

00:43:09   - So people are saying this is like an indication

00:43:11   of possible future inductive charging.

00:43:14   Let me offer an alternative interpretation of those lines.

00:43:17   I think the most efficient way to charge a notebook

00:43:21   is possibly related to power efficiency.

00:43:24   They made a point, Phil said,

00:43:25   it's the most energy efficient laptop

00:43:28   I think in the world right now,

00:43:29   at least that's what they said.

00:43:31   So it could just be,

00:43:32   'cause induction charging I believe is,

00:43:35   we know it's slower,

00:43:35   I believe it's also less efficient energy waste wise.

00:43:39   Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

00:43:40   But so it could be related to that.

00:43:44   - So you think it's like the opposite,

00:43:45   like where they're saying

00:43:46   Other people may have wireless charging,

00:43:48   but the most efficient way to charge a notebook

00:43:50   is by plugging it in.

00:43:51   Is that what you're saying?

00:43:52   - It's very possible that was what he meant.

00:43:53   And also, when you wanna plug it in and charge quickly,

00:43:57   might have just meant like, you know,

00:43:59   it to kind of reinforce the idea that A,

00:44:02   the battery life is so great

00:44:03   that you're not gonna need to spend a lot of time

00:44:05   charging this.

00:44:06   B, you're gonna not be plugged in most of the time

00:44:09   so that, you know, you're gonna be unplugged

00:44:11   and wireless and free like using iPads.

00:44:13   And C, when you do plug in,

00:44:15   like he didn't want to make it sound like a burden.

00:44:18   So I think that's where those quotes were coming from.

00:44:21   I don't think they were like foreshadowing a future

00:44:24   of wireless charging notebooks,

00:44:26   which I still think for the most part are not a good idea

00:44:29   because you have to set like,

00:44:32   my electric toothbrush charges inductively

00:44:35   and it can do that because it is sitting on the charger

00:44:37   the vast majority of its existence.

00:44:40   You know, the vast majority of every day it's on the charger

00:44:43   and it's a really low power device.

00:44:45   A laptop does not fit that profile.

00:44:48   So for a laptop to be able to be inductively charged,

00:44:51   you have to be able to get a ton of current in there,

00:44:55   you know, relative to most inductive charging systems.

00:44:58   You just have to get a ton of current in there

00:44:59   from what, some giant pad you stick it on?

00:45:02   I mean, then you have to carry around a giant pad.

00:45:04   Like there's, it's one of those things

00:45:07   that sounds cool in theory, but in reality,

00:45:09   I don't think it ever will hit that for laptops,

00:45:12   at least not for a very long time.

00:45:14   - Well, this wireless charging business is,

00:45:16   and wireless stuff in general,

00:45:17   is part of Intel Skylake initiative.

00:45:20   They always have some technologies they're pushing along

00:45:22   with their new chips or whatever

00:45:24   that aren't really related technically.

00:45:25   Sometimes there's some support in the CPU

00:45:27   for something or other or the chip set.

00:45:28   But anyway, because this is part of their push,

00:45:31   it probably means that PC makers are going to

00:45:35   roll this out to some degree.

00:45:38   And maybe they'll be the ones to figure out,

00:45:40   like, are we at a point where this is something

00:45:43   people want to actually use yes or no.

00:45:45   I don't know what to make a read on Apple's choice

00:45:48   of words here.

00:45:49   All of your interpretations that you said Marco

00:45:51   could be true.

00:45:52   I think the one that probably seems the truest

00:45:56   is the idea that they are not planning

00:45:58   on doing wireless charger

00:45:59   and they are preemptively poo-pooing the idea

00:46:01   by saying, you know, plugging in is way more efficient.

00:46:03   You don't want that crappy wireless stuff.

00:46:05   We're all about plugging in.

00:46:06   You're gonna want to plug in.

00:46:08   And that's why, it's like when you want to charge quickly,

00:46:12   Like that's when you want to plug in a cable.

00:46:14   I don't know.

00:46:14   That interpretation rings the most true to me

00:46:17   that they are,

00:46:18   because they know they don't have wireless charging

00:46:20   available for sale now and PC makers will.

00:46:22   And they probably, if they don't,

00:46:24   if Skylight comes out and every PC maker says,

00:46:26   "Oh, and also charges wireless here or whatever,"

00:46:28   and Apple doesn't have it,

00:46:29   Apple will want to emphasize the fact

00:46:31   that they don't have it because it sucks.

00:46:32   Like we could have made it,

00:46:34   but it was not good enough for us.

00:46:35   That's why we don't have it.

00:46:36   Plugging in is way better.

00:46:37   - Right. Nobody wants to watch a video

00:46:38   on an iPod size screen.

00:46:40   - Right.

00:46:40   But if it is, if they can get it to work better.

00:46:43   And these are the other things.

00:46:44   This is what I have.

00:46:45   We're skipping out of the follow-up

00:46:46   and jumping right into the topics here.

00:46:48   Skylake's tech that they're promoting

00:46:51   is not just wireless charging,

00:46:53   but also this WiDi, which is not new,

00:46:56   wireless display and WiGig for faster,

00:46:59   shorter range display and WiGig hubs for USB and ethernet.

00:47:03   So like the idea is that you would just put your computer

00:47:05   down on your desk and there'll be a box on your desk

00:47:08   with an ethernet cable connected to it

00:47:09   and a bunch of USB things going into it.

00:47:11   And you don't have to plug anything in,

00:47:12   it's the ultimate docking station.

00:47:13   You just put your laptop down next to it

00:47:15   and your monitor lights up

00:47:17   with the picture from your laptop

00:47:18   and all your USB devices that are there mount on the thing

00:47:21   and you switch from Wi-Fi to ethernet.

00:47:24   That is something that Apple would love

00:47:25   that I think everyone would love.

00:47:27   And unlike wireless charging,

00:47:29   I don't see anything stopping these things

00:47:31   from being any worse or particularly worse

00:47:33   than having to plug in a USB or a Thunderbolt cable.

00:47:37   As long as the bandwidth is there

00:47:38   and if the technology works, you know,

00:47:40   that is an experience that office workers, I think,

00:47:43   would love and would not want to go back

00:47:45   to clipping their stupid PC into a docking station

00:47:47   or even plugging in a single USB cable.

00:47:49   It's a nicer experience just to sit down at your desk,

00:47:52   put your thing down, as long as it's within five feet

00:47:55   of that little box, you're good to go.

00:47:56   Like that seems like the future to me.

00:47:58   - Oh, I agree.

00:47:59   Every time I think about a Thunderbolt display,

00:48:02   I get jealous because I still have regular old Samsung

00:48:08   display at home, we have a litany of random displays

00:48:12   at work, and it would be amazing to just have one thing

00:48:16   that I plug everything into, and then that plugs

00:48:19   into my computer, or like you're saying, John,

00:48:21   maybe no plugs at all.

00:48:23   It would be phenomenal.

00:48:24   And I gotta be honest, every time I see somebody

00:48:27   just slam their Dell into one of these docking stations

00:48:29   and suddenly they have ethernet and displays

00:48:31   and power and everything else, I get a little jealous,

00:48:33   I really do.

00:48:35   - See, I would say like the no wires thing

00:48:39   is so much more difficult

00:48:40   and has so many potential issues and shortcomings.

00:48:44   I would say the ideal scenario here is the one wire method,

00:48:47   which we are now getting with USB-C.

00:48:50   So I mean, I think we're pretty much, we're there.

00:48:54   - Why do you think the no wire solution has problems?

00:48:56   It's like super short range.

00:48:57   It's like even shorter range than Bluetooth.

00:48:59   - Well, because then you have the issue of powering it.

00:49:01   Like, so you can have everything else except power,

00:49:03   so then how are you powering?

00:49:03   powering with some kind of induction.

00:49:05   - Oh no, yeah, not the power I'm talking about.

00:49:06   I'm talking about everything but the power.

00:49:08   I'm talking about just--

00:49:09   - But that's a big thing.

00:49:10   - I don't think it's that big a deal

00:49:11   because I think the signals,

00:49:13   sending wireless signals to these devices

00:49:15   is not going to be any,

00:49:17   it's gonna be less power than Wi-Fi

00:49:18   because it's shorter range, right?

00:49:19   So the power is not a concern for the transmission

00:49:22   and receiving end on the computer side.

00:49:24   And if you're just worried about the fact that,

00:49:26   well, now when I'm sitting at my desk,

00:49:27   I'm not charging my Mac,

00:49:29   that is the whole idea of like all day battery power,

00:49:31   you just charge it at the end of the day.

00:49:33   and I think that will cure it.

00:49:34   It already has cured itself for the bigger laptops

00:49:36   that even if you just wanna talk about

00:49:38   that 13-inch MacBook Air,

00:49:40   that gets, you know, you can work on it for an entire day,

00:49:42   you do not have to plug it in.

00:49:44   And if they can get the new MacBook up to that level,

00:49:47   which now it's probably borderline, but it's close,

00:49:50   then that's not an issue anymore.

00:49:52   Like your entire working,

00:49:53   the only time you would plug it in

00:49:54   is when you leave for the night, you know what I mean?

00:49:57   - Yeah, yeah, I get that that's the dream.

00:50:00   I think reality is gonna be different for a long time.

00:50:03   - I think the modern laptops can make it through a day.

00:50:06   Like I see people going to meetings,

00:50:08   bringing the laptop, and I mean a lot of people I know

00:50:10   don't plug it in during the day.

00:50:11   If you have it at your house and you're not going anywhere,

00:50:13   then why not just plug it in, so maybe this isn't attractive.

00:50:16   But for business, all I see all day are people

00:50:18   with stupid docking stations who are constantly

00:50:20   plugging in or unplugging their thing to their big,

00:50:21   to the display is the big one.

00:50:22   'Cause when they sit at their desk,

00:50:23   they don't wanna use the little laptop display,

00:50:25   they wanna use the big one, right?

00:50:26   Or the multiple displays.

00:50:27   And the constant plug-unplug, to be able to just plop it down

00:50:30   and use it, their battery will last an eight hour workday easy.

00:50:32   Well, unless they have to run Photoshop or Xcode or Flash.

00:50:36   And there's a list that keeps growing of the apps that make your CPU suck.

00:50:41   Yeah, Photoshop, I don't know if people are running back and forth in meetings with Photoshop

00:50:45   all the time, but I'm mostly just seeing people who are typing all day, so maybe that's just

00:50:48   the bias of being around a bunch of developers, right?

00:50:51   That they're web browsing and typing all day, and they're not even compiling code because

00:50:55   it's like the code is on the server, right?

00:50:56   So it's just a bunch of SSH windows or whatever.

00:50:59   I think the wireless display and wireless hubs like that

00:51:04   are very attractive to me, even for at-home use.

00:51:07   Hell, I would use it with my gigantic 50 pound Mac Pro,

00:51:11   just so I wouldn't have to have

00:51:12   all these stupid wires going all over the place.

00:51:14   Like that is a luxury that I'd be willing to pay for.

00:51:16   Just not to have to, for my USB hub,

00:51:18   if that could be connected with YGIG

00:51:20   and I don't have to figure out

00:51:20   how to fish all these wires all over the place,

00:51:22   I would buy that for a computer that never moves.

00:51:25   - Yeah, but then you'd have to upgrade your Mac Pro,

00:51:27   which would never happen, so.

00:51:28   (laughing)

00:51:29   - I know, I just attached some crazy ass,

00:51:31   hey, I've got PCI slots free, I can just put it in there.

00:51:33   (laughing)

00:51:34   - Yeah, I'm sure that this technology will come

00:51:37   in PCI Express desktop slot format.

00:51:40   - Yeah, there's plenty of room in there.

00:51:42   Who knows, I could have a whole daughter card.

00:51:43   Hey, I could put a Mac Mini inside my Mac Pro's case

00:51:46   and just use that.

00:51:47   - Oh, God.

00:51:47   - You could fit many Mac Mini's inside your Mac Pro case.

00:51:49   - That's right, it's gonna get rid

00:51:50   of these two optical drives.

00:51:51   There's plenty of room in there.

00:51:53   - Oh my God.

00:51:54   Our final sponsor is Backblaze.

00:51:56   Go to backblaze.com/ATP.

00:52:03   those things that you don't want to think about. The pain in the butt when you try to

00:52:09   work it out. But you know that it's dangerous to go without. Most online backup gets crazy

00:52:18   expensive when you start trying to back up everything. They put limits on your storage

00:52:25   and limits on the file size that you're allowed to upload. It's throttled so slow but there's

00:52:32   Let's go!

00:52:33   Just 5 bucks a month, will it just 5 bucks a month?

00:52:37   Say what?

00:52:38   All your data safe secure for just 5 bucks a month.

00:52:41   Think of all those photos, those vacations and pictures from holidays.

00:52:47   In a blink of an eye, you'll find a new one.

00:52:52   Safe, secure for just about $1 a month

00:52:55   Think of all those photos

00:52:57   Those vacations and pictures from holidays

00:53:00   In a blink of an eye they could all just go away

00:53:04   For the price of a cup of coffee they could all be safe

00:53:08   It's so easy to use, it just works in the background

00:53:13   Set it up once and never think about it again

00:53:17   Get your files one at a time

00:53:19   Or if your hard drive dies

00:53:21   I'll send you a new one before you know With all your files ready to go

00:53:25   There's a better way, it's called backdays Unlimited storage for five bucks a month

00:53:33   Unlimited file size, unlimited upload speed All of your data for five bucks a month

00:53:41   Just five bucks a month, will it Just five bucks a month, say what

00:53:45   All your data safe secure for just five bucks a month

00:53:49   ♫ It's just five bucks a month

00:53:51   ♫ Well it's just five bucks a month

00:53:53   ♫ Just five bucks a month

00:53:55   ♫ Well it's just five bucks a month ♫

00:53:57   - So go to backblaze.com/ATP.

00:53:59   Thanks a lot once again to Backblaze.

00:54:01   Backblaze.com/ATP.

00:54:03   - Alright, is there anything else on Skylake

00:54:05   or do we wanna jump backwards in the notes

00:54:08   to model lineup?

00:54:09   - Yeah, that's a quickie left over from last week.

00:54:12   I think we can jump backwards to that briefly.

00:54:14   I put that in there to remind me,

00:54:17   This is kind of like a... on the eve of the Apple Watch release to the general public,

00:54:24   Tim Cook's first big new product category that, you know, that everyone cares about.

00:54:30   His first big test sort of getting out from under the shadow of Steve Jobs.

00:54:33   He's no longer the steward of the company taking control over it.

00:54:37   I started thinking back on like, what does Tim Cook's Apple look like and how does it

00:54:42   differ than Steve Jobs' Apple?

00:54:44   one particular way that I've seen a lot of people bringing up lately and thinking about

00:54:49   as well is what is Tim Cook's philosophy about the model lineup versus Steve Jobs?

00:54:55   And a lot of people talked about, oh, the model lineup is getting more complicated and

00:54:59   Steve Jobs loved to have a simplified product line and Tim Cook, even though he goes on

00:55:05   shows and says, all of Apple's products can fit on this table, when people post pictures

00:55:10   of the Apple website and say, just look at all these freaking options.

00:55:12   It's not like Dell.com yet, but there's a lot more products and a lot more options.

00:55:15   Granted, a lot of that has to do with the fashion and the watch bands and selling laptops

00:55:19   in different colors.

00:55:20   It's not really that big.

00:55:22   But what made me think about it the most was when they introduced the new MacBook, they

00:55:28   didn't get rid of the Airs.

00:55:29   In fact, they revised them.

00:55:32   And the history of Tim Cook's Apple of introducing new models but keeping the old ones around,

00:55:37   both as part of the overall iOS strategy but also for the Macs and stuff.

00:55:41   Steve Jobs style move would be to introduce the new MacBook and get rid of the errors. Why would he do that?

00:55:48   Because the the errors are crap, even if they were upgraded they wouldn't be as good. This new one is the future of laptops

00:55:55   This is what you should be using. This is the replacement for the errors

00:55:57   You know, we'll sell out the inventory we have but this is the future and people would complain because they would say but but but it

00:56:03   Doesn't do what the errors do here and that and there's no 11-inch model in this 11-inch model had Thunderbolt and all these things

00:56:09   And the Steve Jobs philosophy was always when they come out with the new thing

00:56:12   Everyone get on board. The new thing is the new thing

00:56:15   I'm the all I can't even look at the old thing and I can't even look at that old computer

00:56:18   it was so disgusting to me that we just need to get it out of line and

00:56:21   Tim Cook's philosophy is not like that Tim Cook's philosophy as far as I can tell is

00:56:26   Much more pragmatic to say although we think this is the best one and people should buy this

00:56:30   There's no harm in keeping the other ones around until we have and replacements

00:56:34   Well, in fact, we can revise them and make them a little bit better

00:56:36   Yeah, they're probably gonna be phased out

00:56:37   "but in the meantime, let's just keep selling them."

00:56:40   Basically, if people are buying them, keep selling them.

00:56:42   Why are we taking away models that people wanna buy

00:56:44   and trying to force them to buy the model

00:56:46   that we think they should buy, right?

00:56:48   And that, I think, if I'm even close in this,

00:56:51   and I don't have like huge dreams of supporting it,

00:56:54   and it's just a general feeling

00:56:55   from seeing the different model lines,

00:56:56   is one of the first things I've seen

00:56:59   that is a difference between Tim Cook's Apple

00:57:01   and Steve Jobs' Apple,

00:57:02   but besides things like, obviously, their demeanor

00:57:04   and the charitable contributions

00:57:08   and all that other stuff that's kind of extracurricular.

00:57:10   Talk about the products and the product lines themselves.

00:57:13   Tim Cook's Apple seems much more like a regular business

00:57:17   in that they're not gonna leave money on the table

00:57:19   but pulling products that people still wanna buy.

00:57:21   Whereas Steve Jobs' Apple would pull products

00:57:23   that people still wanna buy,

00:57:24   basically for philosophical reasons,

00:57:26   'cause he can't stand to look at the old ones

00:57:27   'cause the new one is better

00:57:29   and that's just what he wants to do.

00:57:30   And that is the strongest thing I've felt about

00:57:34   Tim Cook's Apple differs from Steve Jobs' Apple

00:57:37   I think in history of all the little things that we've ever talked about and I don't want to know if you guys like

00:57:41   Do you feel that as well or am I crazy and Steve Jobs did exactly the same thing as Tim Cook is doing it?

00:57:46   I'm just misremembering

00:57:47   No, I think this seems different during my

00:57:51   tenure as an Apple fan that I

00:57:55   wonder if this has to do with Tim being a

00:58:01   Supply chain guy and not fearing that not to say that that's what motivated Steve because I think you're right

00:58:06   I think Steve is motivated by this is the new hotness

00:58:09   You will like it or you will screw off and I think with Tim it's it's a little like you had said John

00:58:17   Well, what's it gonna hurt and and I think?

00:58:19   It's a lot of well

00:58:21   I know it's not gonna hurt anything because I used to do this and and I know how the supply chain works and I know

00:58:27   That this we can handle this. I mean does that sound reasonable?

00:58:30   It's not like that's applied to me. It's like bean counting, but that's that's a pejorative like it's not

00:58:34   You know

00:58:35   Oh

00:58:35   we can make a few extra cents here because like Apple did keep all models around when they had to and people in the chat room

00:58:40   Point out like they would they would often say this model will still be available but only for education purposes like Steve Jobs wasn't

00:58:45   Totally out of touch with the needs of the customers if there's some big important customer base

00:58:50   Which used to be education back in the day was saying like well education really needs this so we're gonna keep selling it

00:58:55   but we're only going to sell it to education rather than selling it to everybody and that

00:59:00   You know, I'm sure there have been cases where Steve Jobs did not immediately wipe out the new model with the old models with the new

00:59:06   But when he could you could tell that

00:59:08   I mean just you felt from him that

00:59:11   He wanted you to like this new one as much as he does and part of helping you along that path would be to take

00:59:17   Away the old one. So your only choice is the new one, right?

00:59:19   I mean, I think this is kind of a combination of factors, you know part of it is

00:59:24   Probably the Tim Cook, you know method or Tim Cook's principles

00:59:29   coming up, you know, where this is the way he chooses to run things. I think though this

00:59:33   did start under Steve. And it might have just corresponded with the rise of Tim Cook's authority

00:59:41   and power in the company. And as Steve started having more severe medical issues in his last

00:59:46   few years, as Tim, you know, ran more of the company, you know, so it might have been that

00:59:52   overlap. I think it's also a sign of Apple just maturing as a company. They now have

00:59:57   way more customers than they did before.

00:59:59   They have products that span much larger price ranges.

01:00:02   The old small product lines were all expensive.

01:00:06   Now they have products that start at moderate prices

01:00:10   and go into expensive.

01:00:12   So they have more product lines,

01:00:15   and also a lot of the technology really has slowed down.

01:00:19   I mean, the phones keep advancing pretty aggressively,

01:00:23   although even that's starting to slow down a little bit.

01:00:26   But if you look at the Mac books, or the Mac in general,

01:00:30   advancement in PCs has been,

01:00:33   and I'm including Macs in that,

01:00:35   advancement in PCs has been pretty slow

01:00:38   in the last five or 10 years.

01:00:40   The SSD transition was the big thing that happened.

01:00:43   And retina's happening mostly,

01:00:45   but it's happening more slowly.

01:00:47   Well, both of those are happening slowly.

01:00:48   But once you go retina and SSD, those are two big jumps,

01:00:52   and then CPUs have kind of gone nowhere

01:00:54   in the last few years.

01:00:55   they've made very small improvements at best.

01:00:57   Everything's kinda like, not at a standstill,

01:01:02   but certainly slowing down.

01:01:05   And so, hardware that was perfectly fine a few years ago

01:01:09   is still perfectly fine today.

01:01:11   The difference between the performance of the MacBook Air

01:01:16   versus the performance of the 15-inch matters a lot less

01:01:20   today from what most people do.

01:01:22   So there's all these,

01:01:24   it just seemed like the hardware has gotten so good

01:01:26   that you don't need to be in as big of a rush

01:01:29   to get rid of the old stuff.

01:01:30   And the new stuff isn't so dramatically much better

01:01:33   that everyone is forced or everyone is strongly encouraged

01:01:36   to buy it instead.

01:01:38   There's still room in the lineup.

01:01:39   And so by keeping old lines around

01:01:41   or by keeping more lines around

01:01:43   than the original Steve four boxes thing,

01:01:45   I think it allows them to serve way more customers

01:01:50   in a way that doesn't necessarily hurt anybody.

01:01:53   It's not really that confusing for the most part.

01:01:55   Occasionally there's some weird overlap,

01:01:57   but usually that's resolved within a couple years.

01:02:00   I just think for the most part,

01:02:01   this is just a sign of both the PC industry

01:02:05   and Apple maturing.

01:02:07   - I don't know if it's a maturing thing,

01:02:09   but because I can't decide which is particularly better,

01:02:14   which shows more maturity,

01:02:16   because the type of thing of keeping products around

01:02:19   is just like, well, that's what business always does.

01:02:21   It's not a new phenomenon.

01:02:22   It's not a sign of a young or an old company all companies do it because it's basically smart from a business perspective

01:02:26   Like if you want to give you money for a product keeps selling it to them until it doesn't make sense for you to sell

01:02:31   It to him for you guys not enough people buy it like the 17-inch MacBook or whatever whatever was called when it went away

01:02:36   Didn't go away. I'm assuming for philosophical reason when I guess not enough people buy them, right?

01:02:41   That's you know, that's why the Mac Pro didn't get updated for a long time, you know, like

01:02:44   Volumes can make you discontinue a product line. But when you have something like this where the new MacBook comes out

01:02:49   and

01:02:52   It basically obsoletes all the other, the Airs.

01:02:57   It should have just been called,

01:02:58   people expected it to be called an Air

01:02:59   and wipe out all the Airs, but it was like,

01:03:00   this is a discontinuity,

01:03:02   in the same way that the first Air was a discontinuity

01:03:04   and the first Unibody was a discontinuity

01:03:06   in their laptop design.

01:03:07   It's clearly, this is the spearhead

01:03:10   of the new design philosophy for laptops.

01:03:13   There's been generations where they just get revved,

01:03:14   revved, revved, and then retina,

01:03:16   and then this is like, I would say it's like,

01:03:21   Aluminum aluminum unibody first air, you know aluminum and then I guess first air was the first unit body

01:03:27   So that's two and one and then and then this and this is like totally removing ports

01:03:31   Slim at all cost retina like has has the screen of the pros

01:03:37   But the the power and size of the air is and like it's such an overlaps

01:03:43   like why keep you understand keeping like maybe an old thing around or a cheaper thing around or the non retina one around because it's

01:03:48   But like the overlap with the air is insane with this thing like it's like what what are you it?

01:03:54   It doesn't send a clear message

01:03:55   Are you saying this is the future of things, but you can still buy these other ones

01:03:58   Why would I buy these other ones when you go to an Apple store?

01:04:01   How will they explain to you to choose between?

01:04:03   The I guess it's like the the crappy screen versus non crappy screen

01:04:07   But why keep around the one with the crappy screen like I totally believe not that again

01:04:11   Not this makes it good or bad

01:04:12   But I totally believe the Steve Jobs would have

01:04:14   Gotten rid of the air's like he would have sold out the inventory and the new MacBook would have come out and that would have taken

01:04:19   The spot in the line and for a while their line would not be correctly proportioned

01:04:23   But eventually they would all convert and everything would be fine instead the Tim Cook model line philosophy is of course

01:04:29   You keep selling the areas eventually. We won't eventually they'll go away. Obviously, we're not gonna keep revving that line probably or if we do

01:04:34   They're going to they're going to transform to be things that have one or zero USB C ports on them

01:04:38   Right, like no one expects the heiress the next revision of the air still have Thunderbolt ports on them

01:04:43   Right, like they're going to all look like the new MacBook and so will the pros eventually in terms of the port layouts and everything

01:04:49   I am that is the new design philosophy and it's just weird to see them coexisting. I think the the jobs philosophy is

01:04:55   bolder and sort of

01:04:57   Expresses the intent of Apple like their vision of technology out into the world

01:05:01   In a way in a stronger way in the same way that annoys people because you take away their products

01:05:07   It sends the message to everyone else that like this is our vision of the future and we are leading

01:05:12   Right and then Tim Cook way is more sort of

01:05:14   This is our vision of the future, but we understand if you're not ready for it yet. We'd also have another product

01:05:19   It's actually pretty darn good, and you can still buy it eventually they'll go away

01:05:22   It seems more chill and it's less exciting to me as an observer

01:05:28   It's probably better for the business business wise short term

01:05:32   I don't know if it's better long term if taken to its logical conclusion

01:05:35   well you just

01:05:37   sell models forever until people stop buying them because I think people will continue to buy models that they

01:05:42   quote-unquote shouldn't

01:05:43   For a really long time and sometimes you have to sort of herd them along to the new model by taking away the old model

01:05:48   The same time you bring in the new ones. Yeah, that's fair

01:05:50   I mean

01:05:50   I think maybe a lot of it might have to do with how much of a compromise in certain ways the new one is

01:05:55   First the old one like the greatest example

01:05:57   I think of Steve killing off an old product when the new one came out was the iPad or the iPod

01:06:02   Mini going to the iPod nano

01:06:05   That was like the canonical example of like and he even said on stage is like the iPod mini was like our best-selling iPod ever

01:06:11   And we're discontinuing it today and people would have kept buying the mini if they kept selling it

01:06:15   It came in more colors people loved it the form factor and everything even though you'd look at it like who the hell would buy

01:06:20   This thing when the nano is out even though the nano scratches like hell, right?

01:06:23   But yeah, who the hell would buy this thing when the nano is available people would keep buying them because they came in

01:06:28   You know yellow and pink or whatever. They came in gold right the first gold thing, right and

01:06:32   like

01:06:34   By making that decision, it wasn't just bold

01:06:36   and showing their vision of the future,

01:06:37   it was forcing the world to move on faster

01:06:41   than they would have otherwise,

01:06:42   which is upsetting to some people,

01:06:44   but it's the advantage that Apple has,

01:06:48   that they can sort of herd their customer base along

01:06:51   at a faster clip than everybody else

01:06:52   because they're not afraid to take away

01:06:54   products the customers still like.

01:06:56   - Well, but in that example of the iPod Mini to Nano,

01:07:00   like the way the Nano was worse than the Mini

01:07:03   or more limiting were very small.

01:07:05   It had less capacity, but not by a whole lot.

01:07:07   I think it was like six gigs versus four,

01:07:09   something like that.

01:07:10   So it was a relatively small drop in capacity.

01:07:14   - It was a first gen product

01:07:15   that got scratches all over it.

01:07:17   That's the whole thing.

01:07:17   If you're saying this is the bold new vision

01:07:19   and if your first gen project has some sort of problems,

01:07:21   you're like, oh, well, I'll just buy the old one.

01:07:23   Oh, wait, I can't, they took that one away.

01:07:25   - Well, but for the most part,

01:07:26   I don't think people are doing that kind of calculus

01:07:27   of like, oh, well, let me just wait till the problem surface

01:07:30   and buy the old one.

01:07:31   I don't think anybody except you

01:07:32   puts that much thought into that.

01:07:33   But that was an easy transition to force

01:07:36   because the new one was a lot better

01:07:39   in some really critical ways.

01:07:41   And the ways in which it was worse than the old one

01:07:45   or more limiting were fairly minor.

01:07:47   Whereas when you look at something like now,

01:07:50   the new MacBook versus the MacBook Air,

01:07:53   the ways in which it is worse or more limiting

01:07:56   than the old one are pretty big still.

01:07:58   Like it's pretty substantial.

01:08:00   like the port differences are massive,

01:08:03   the keyboard might be significantly worse,

01:08:06   we don't know yet, we'll see.

01:08:08   And then in these new ways it is way better,

01:08:10   it is thinner, lighter,

01:08:12   somewhat longer battery life

01:08:14   at least compared to the 11 inch probably.

01:08:17   It's also, although unfortunately,

01:08:19   it's also probably a lot slower CPU wise.

01:08:22   So, you know, there's this one,

01:08:25   I think it's, you can look at the easy transition,

01:08:30   of the iPod Mini to Nano, that's a no brainer.

01:08:35   The MacBook Air to new MacBook,

01:08:37   I think forcing that on people,

01:08:39   not leaving that old option behind

01:08:40   until some of the stuff shakes out and matures,

01:08:43   that would be I think a lot more damaging,

01:08:44   especially because the MacBook Air line,

01:08:49   maybe not the 11, I don't know, but probably the 13,

01:08:52   that's probably their best selling computer.

01:08:54   - Well that's the Tim Cook reason not to get rid of it,

01:08:57   'cause people are still buying a ton of them,

01:08:58   and like the Steve Jobs would be like,

01:08:59   I don't care again the the iPod mini people are buying a ton of them

01:09:03   I'm thinking of even a more boring one like when the the I forget what you want to call

01:09:07   But the the iMac with the big metal arm with the first flat panel iMac or that one yeah, right?

01:09:12   So the previous iMacs with the CRT is with all the pretty colors people would have kept buying them too

01:09:16   Especially if they were slightly cheaper or got slightly cheaper when the thing came out

01:09:19   Or well apparently we're not gonna get to again this week, but the Apple TV is another example

01:09:25   Do you think they'll keep selling the $69 one when the new one comes out? Maybe it's I think they've already told us

01:09:31   They will it's a Tim Cook kind of thing to do right but a Steve Jobs thing is this is the new Apple TV and the

01:09:35   Old one is gone. This is the new iMac and the old iMac is gone, right?

01:09:38   Well, I believe the whole thing everyone's jumping on about how they said the Apple TV starting at 69

01:09:44   I think that tells you right there that that I don't think you need to see that to know that a new Apple TV is

01:09:48   Come look if they're gonna do the Apple TV as a product

01:09:50   They have to revise it sometime and when they drop them and they drop the price on the old one, of course

01:09:54   they're gonna, yeah.

01:09:55   - No, but I'm saying like that I think indicates that

01:09:57   you know, it's not gonna, this isn't gonna,

01:09:59   this isn't gonna be for sale at this price

01:10:01   and then for you know, six months or whatever

01:10:03   and then be discontinued.

01:10:05   I think they're gonna, it's just gonna be

01:10:06   the bottom of the line.

01:10:07   It's gonna keep being sold forever.

01:10:08   We're gonna have A5, look they're still selling

01:10:10   the freaking iPod touch.

01:10:11   That's less updated than what, 2012?

01:10:14   - I know, I know.

01:10:15   - Yeah, I mean like.

01:10:16   (laughing)

01:10:16   - Well that's just saying, this type of philosophy,

01:10:20   the Tim Cook's Apple philosophy

01:10:22   And maybe the tail end of Steve Jobs' Apple philosophy was,

01:10:25   you keep selling products as long as people keep wanting

01:10:29   to buy them within reason.

01:10:31   Like, you know, eventually not enough people wanna buy them

01:10:35   or there's no place in your product line for it.

01:10:37   But if there's still a place in your product line,

01:10:39   we'll just, you know, like the iPod touch,

01:10:40   why the iPod touch still even exist?

01:10:42   Well, I mean, they don't sell a lot of them.

01:10:44   We see their sales number.

01:10:44   It's not as if tons of people are selling them,

01:10:46   but enough people are buying them that it's like,

01:10:49   well, why not?

01:10:51   Whereas at this point, I think Steve Jobs

01:10:53   would have lost faith in the iPod Touch as a product

01:10:55   and just canned it.

01:10:57   - I mean, they're still selling the non-Retina MacBook Pro

01:11:00   with the DVD-ROM drive.

01:11:02   - I know, I know, with the optical drive.

01:11:03   Again, because optical drives,

01:11:05   we're taking the optical drives away.

01:11:06   Soon they'll be gone from all our products,

01:11:07   except this one thing will linger on forever,

01:11:09   because we know there's somehow enough people

01:11:11   who wanna buy it with an optical drive.

01:11:12   And it's not just, education's another thing.

01:11:14   Like corporate sales or education,

01:11:16   where it's like we demand this and we're a big customer,

01:11:19   they've always been able to,

01:11:20   as we've said in the past shows,

01:11:21   Apple used to make specific products just for education.

01:11:25   Like that's how important education was as a customer.

01:11:27   Now they'll just keep all the ones around,

01:11:28   but they're just, you know,

01:11:29   having the one with the CD drive in it

01:11:31   or having non-retina MacBooks still for sale

01:11:35   or having the Air still for sale,

01:11:36   it's not so much that it confuses the line,

01:11:40   but it is definitely not like Apple clearly speaking out

01:11:44   and saying, "This is the future, these are our products."

01:11:46   And I think Tim Cook's table where he keeps all the products

01:11:49   is gonna have to be a pretty darn big table pretty soon.

01:11:52   - Yeah, I mean that big glass watch box

01:11:55   takes up probably half the table now.

01:11:56   - Yeah, the watches you can put in a jumble in a pile,

01:11:58   but you gotta have all those different varieties

01:12:01   of MacBooks and the big iMacs,

01:12:04   and I guess you can put the two Mac Pros, anyway.

01:12:06   - Does each color of like the iPads and everything,

01:12:08   does each color count?

01:12:09   Although if you line iPads up like a bookshelf,

01:12:12   like on their ends and like just stick them between.

01:12:15   - Exactly, you just stack them, yeah, they're stackable.

01:12:17   But yeah, I guess you could stack the laptops too.

01:12:20   I think that's the strategy.

01:12:21   It's the 3D strategy, just stacking.

01:12:23   All of our products fold flat except for, I guess,

01:12:25   the iMac and the tubes we can kind of stack like cord would.

01:12:28   So you can get them all on the table.

01:12:30   Someone should do that.

01:12:31   Someone who had too much money should say,

01:12:33   "How big a table do you need to put all the products

01:12:35   "Apple sells in it?"

01:12:36   And I mean all of them.

01:12:36   I want all the colors, all the bands for all the watches,

01:12:39   all the different models of iPads with different Wi-Fi

01:12:42   and the colors for the iPads too.

01:12:44   Anyway, yeah.

01:12:46   That was my thought on the model line philosophy.

01:12:49   - All right, we good?

01:12:51   - Before we forget, since it's been an entire show

01:12:55   plus an entire hour since the Nintendo thing was announced

01:12:58   and we still haven't talked about it,

01:12:59   let's talk about the Nintendo thing now.

01:13:01   - All right, so John, who did Nintendo sell to?

01:13:05   - Nobody in South, anyway, they did a partnership deal

01:13:08   with DNA, which is spelled capital D lowercase E,

01:13:11   capital N, capital A, instead of Dana,

01:13:13   which would be better.

01:13:14   - I've been saying Dina in my head.

01:13:15   I guess that you're what makes a lot more sense.

01:13:17   - It's DNA.

01:13:19   And as a partnership with them,

01:13:20   they're a company that makes mobile games.

01:13:22   And this is basically Nintendo saying,

01:13:24   "We don't know how to make mobile games.

01:13:27   We need mobile games quickly.

01:13:29   We don't have time to learn how to make mobile games.

01:13:32   Therefore, this company that we're going to partner with

01:13:35   will make mobile games for us

01:13:37   using our intellectual property."

01:13:39   I would imagine that Nintendo is still in a position

01:13:42   strong enough to make this partnership

01:13:44   the way they usually do, which is,

01:13:46   you will make a game for us,

01:13:49   but we will tell you that your game is crappy

01:13:51   and tell you how to change it.

01:13:52   So like when Retro Studios made Metroid Prime,

01:13:55   oh, Retro Studios, they're making Metroid Prime, right?

01:13:57   Yeah, they're making Metroid Prime,

01:13:58   and then Miyamoto comes and tells them

01:13:59   how their game sucks and how they have to change it.

01:14:02   And they repeat that process over and over again

01:14:04   until Miyamoto is satisfied,

01:14:05   and then you get to release what you call Metroid Prime.

01:14:07   And it's like, we want you to do the part

01:14:09   that you're good at, which is we have no idea

01:14:11   how to do this mobile development stuff.

01:14:12   But I would imagine that Nintendo is still in the same kind of position Apple is in with

01:14:18   its suppliers.

01:14:19   We are Nintendo.

01:14:20   We'll tell you when you've done a good enough job.

01:14:22   This partnership deal heavily favors us.

01:14:24   But it is a partnership deal.

01:14:26   This is not a strength move.

01:14:27   This is a sign of weakness, a sign that we need money.

01:14:33   Our products aren't selling because we made bad choices when we designed them.

01:14:37   We need games.

01:14:38   We need revenue.

01:14:39   We can't ignore mobile.

01:14:40   also can't make mobile games on our own. I think partnering is probably a good idea because

01:14:45   Nintendo has shown they are fairly incompetent at all the parts of making games except for

01:14:50   the part where you play the game. Like networking, friend systems, the equivalent of Xbox Live

01:14:55   type stuff, app stores. Trying to buy, digitally buy games from Nintendo is like pulling teeth.

01:15:00   It's like have they never, you know, the joke is always like that all Nintendo's employees

01:15:05   are never allowed to use any other game system nor are they allowed to have smartphones.

01:15:09   they're probably not also allowed to use the internet.

01:15:11   And that's why they have no idea

01:15:12   how the rest of the world works.

01:15:14   So, you know, if you find yourself entering friend codes

01:15:16   or trying to buy something from the eShop

01:15:18   and going through 8,000 steps

01:15:19   or trying to transfer your stuff

01:15:20   from one of Nintendo's platforms to another

01:15:22   and taking a million steps for that

01:15:24   involving swapping SD cards

01:15:26   or realizing that your games are tied to your hardware,

01:15:28   not to use your account,

01:15:29   which is just mind boggling in its wrongness and craziness

01:15:32   and being out of step with the rest of the industry.

01:15:35   All that leads me to believe

01:15:36   they made the right move by partnering, but it's not a strength move. It's kind of a sad

01:15:41   situation and I'm not quite sure what's going to come of it. A partnership deal doesn't

01:15:45   mean anything. They haven't announced any games. All they said is all of Nintendo's

01:15:49   intellectual property is up for grabs and hopefully some fruit will come from this in

01:15:54   the future. They've also said by the way they're not porting their games, which means this

01:15:58   company is going to be making new games, so don't expect "insert your favorite Nintendo

01:16:02   game here" is going to appear on your mobile phone because it's not. They are absolutely

01:16:05   not porting any of their games, which means they have to make new games, and those new

01:16:08   games I think are not going to be what Nintendo fans want.

01:16:12   It's not like, "Oh, I would love it, a 2D side-scrolling Metroid on my phone."

01:16:16   I'm thinking that's not what you're going to get.

01:16:18   I'm thinking you're going to get something more like the Pokemon Shuffle game they made

01:16:22   for the 3DS that's like, it's a simpler mobile-style focused game using Nintendo intellectual property,

01:16:30   but it is not, "Let me just take what I think of as a typical Nintendo console or handheld

01:16:34   game and shove it onto a mobile phone because A) that wouldn't work and B) that's just

01:16:38   not what this partnership seems like it's about to me.

01:16:41   Well I think, I don't think that's as big of a problem as some people are going to say

01:16:45   because Nintendo's fans are already buying their stuff. This is not to attract Nintendo's

01:16:52   fans to suddenly start playing Nintendo games on their smartphones. Because if you're

01:16:56   a Nintendo fan you already have one of their systems or at least one of their systems and

01:17:00   you know you're already buying all their little plastic accessories and everything

01:17:03   and you're fine. This is trying, I would assume, this is trying to attract new customers who

01:17:10   don't, who aren't yet Nintendo fans. And this I think is going to be a real uphill battle

01:17:15   for them. I really don't see this succeeding. I mean, I could be wrong, I'm wrong about

01:17:19   a lot of things, but I think this is going to be tough because, you know, the risk of

01:17:25   the games being crappy, or at least nothing special, is very high. You know, as you said,

01:17:31   It sounds like Nintendo's basically, you know, I mean they bought a chunk of DNA so, you

01:17:37   know, they're serious about it but I think these are basically just gonna be DNA games

01:17:43   that happen to include Nintendo characters in them.

01:17:46   Well that's where I was getting into Miyamoto coming and scolding them because their game's

01:17:49   not good enough because I imagine like this partnership, whatever the deal is, like they

01:17:53   buy 10% of the company and it's like the partnership, Nintendo is the senior partner here by a lot

01:17:58   And so they have a lot of control over how...

01:18:01   Like, because they're saying you can use any of our IP,

01:18:04   I think Nintendo is still going to be very protective of its IP

01:18:07   and not inclined to release a game that's terrible.

01:18:09   And I think you're right about like, this is aimed at...

01:18:11   It's money that's been left on the table.

01:18:13   It's saying, look, these people are never going to buy a Nintendo console,

01:18:16   but they would totally willingly buy a $1 iOS game featuring Mario.

01:18:21   Why are we not taking their money?

01:18:23   It's not even like we expect them to go out and buy a 3DS or Wii U.

01:18:26   It's just like they will buy this iOS game. It won't cost us that much to make it. Why are we not making it for them?

01:18:32   It's not like we're saying. Oh, we're gonna make this game instead of instead of a new real Mario game

01:18:36   We're gonna make this game instead of a new console Metroid

01:18:38   No, they're gonna still make all those games. But why are we not taking these people's money or looking at the nicer way?

01:18:44   Why are we not giving them some cute little you know?

01:18:47   Mobile game featuring our characters to play why not?

01:18:50   What what is you know?

01:18:51   And the reason was because we have no idea how to do that and we're really bad at making that those parts of the games

01:18:56   But we don't need to build those expertise in-house. We don't need to be distract our engineers from there. You know working on our next generation

01:19:04   handheld console project

01:19:07   We can just partner with this and then we can drive this partner who is the the junior partner to make sure that they are

01:19:13   respectable or intellectual property and release a game that is at the very least a

01:19:17   Good game and is competent is gonna set the world on fire is it gonna be great

01:19:21   It maybe won't even sell as much as cross your road, but it will I think they'll be profitable right because

01:19:26   Because DNA, like you said, already has the ability to make these games.

01:19:30   The intellectual property is the real valuable thing, and that's what's going to make someone

01:19:33   buy this game versus any other random game with less recognizable characters.

01:19:39   And the secondary effect is, possibly, it could have the effect of scrubbing at least

01:19:43   the iOS store clean of the million games that have pictures of Mario and Zelda in them.

01:19:48   Well, so the idea that people will value these games higher because they have Nintendo IP

01:19:54   in them, I'm not sure that's a given.

01:19:57   - Oh, it's a given.

01:19:58   They will buy them more.

01:20:00   I don't know if they'll value them higher,

01:20:01   but they'll be more likely to buy them.

01:20:02   - Well, some people will be more likely to buy them,

01:20:04   but I would bet the vast majority of people

01:20:07   who buy games on iOS have never heard of Mario.

01:20:10   They don't, they don't--

01:20:11   - Everybody's heard of Mario.

01:20:12   More people have heard of him than Mickey Mouse.

01:20:16   - I would bet that the average age of iOS game buyers

01:20:20   is low, first of all, lower than 35.

01:20:24   so, you know, lower than us basically,

01:20:27   by a significant amount.

01:20:29   And if the people they're trying to attract

01:20:32   are new fans who don't already have Nintendo allegiance,

01:20:37   they've probably never owned a Nintendo system.

01:20:40   - It's not that they're new fans,

01:20:42   it's that they are people who,

01:20:43   it's like the same way that you're aware of Mickey Mouse,

01:20:45   maybe you never go to Disney World.

01:20:47   It's like, I'm never gonna buy a Nintendo console

01:20:50   'cause I'm an Xbox guy.

01:20:51   But I heard of all those Nintendo characters,

01:20:52   And I will buy a $1 game, and I'm more likely to buy the $1 game that has Mario in it.

01:20:57   In fact, the Mario $1 game is more likely to be advertised, to be featured, for my friends to have bought it.

01:21:02   It's just, it's...

01:21:03   It is...

01:21:04   The intellectual property drives this, and as you said before, it could drive it in a way that it makes people buy crappy games.

01:21:10   I'm hoping the games at least be reasonable, but it's not like you're trying to convert them,

01:21:14   and it's not like you're going to find people who've never heard of Mario.

01:21:16   You're finding people who, "Yeah, I've heard of Mario, but I'm still never going to buy a Nintendo console."

01:21:20   But you will tap the button for 99 cents.

01:21:22   Also, you forget Marco that consoles at least the way I define them aren't necessarily tied to a TV

01:21:29   I mean there are gazillion

01:21:31   handheld Nintendo devices out there and as far as I knew even

01:21:36   Reasonably little kids today are still using like 3ds and things like that. I don't know John

01:21:42   You could probably tell me better than the 3ds has been more successful than the Wii U

01:21:46   Which is not saying much because the Wii U has been very honest and the rumors of the next generation project there

01:21:51   These are old rumors so who knows what the hell's to your now is the idea that they would be unifying their platform so that they

01:21:56   Are not so different to develop for whether that means they're gonna release something that works as a handheld system

01:22:00   But can also hook up to your TV or whether it just means that they're gonna use the same underlying technology

01:22:05   So there's not this Gulf so they have to develop a game twice because the you know in the same way that desktop and laptop

01:22:11   Performance has been becoming closer now handheld performance and at least in the use case you you can imagine Nintendo making a single

01:22:20   Writing a game that runs both on their TV connected console and on their handheld one whether those are two separate devices or not

01:22:26   Basically because handheld consoles have good a good enough graphics now that you wouldn't be embarrassed to see them on the TV

01:22:31   And that was that has you know many years ago. That was not the case. They've been

01:22:35   converging towards each other so

01:22:37   Yeah, that has little to do with this. I think this has entirely to do with

01:22:41   What about the people who are never going to buy or play any of those type of games?

01:22:46   They they only will they will only ever buy games in their phone. Why are we not selling them something?

01:22:50   All right. No, I'm responding to Marco saying nobody knows who Mario is in so many words.

01:22:56   And I think that a lot more people know who Mario is, even today, even young people than

01:23:01   you would suspect. Another thing that I don't think we're considering is I've got to imagine

01:23:07   that if Nintendo released a game in the App Store, that Apple will fall all over them

01:23:14   and there'll be featured and there'll be all sorts of App Store marketing. And I suspect

01:23:19   that you will definitely see that all over the App Store.

01:23:23   - I just saw a screenshot today on Twitter

01:23:25   of a game called Apple Watch It,

01:23:27   which is a great name,

01:23:28   Apple space watch space it exclamation point.

01:23:31   And the icon is link as in Nintendo's intellectual property.

01:23:34   That's the icon for the app, by the way,

01:23:36   shooting an arrow in the game,

01:23:37   I think is like you're using using link in the game

01:23:40   to shoot an arrow off the head of somebody.

01:23:41   So it's got the Apple Watch, like, you know,

01:23:44   keyword trolling, and it's getting Nintendo intellectual

01:23:46   property in the fricking icon and in the game.

01:23:49   and that is like on the App Store right now.

01:23:51   - Yeah, Underscore tweeted that earlier.

01:23:52   - Yeah, yeah, I was like.

01:23:54   - It's fantastic.

01:23:55   - I mean, I know it's not Apple's responsibility

01:23:56   to police these things, but.

01:23:57   - No, it is.

01:23:58   - You would think that Nintendo would wake up,

01:24:00   like Nintendo could hire one person all day

01:24:03   just to go through the iOS store

01:24:05   and just send cease and desist letters,

01:24:07   and like, 'cause you know,

01:24:08   Apple will take them off the store in a second.

01:24:10   - Well, they used to.

01:24:12   - Oh, they will, they will take them.

01:24:13   I mean, all they need, it's bureaucracy.

01:24:16   All you need is your own bureaucrat

01:24:17   to communicate with their bureaucrats

01:24:19   bureaucrat ease and everything. It would be great if Nintendo could get the sweet deal

01:24:25   that music and video copyright owners have with YouTube, where YouTube does the policing

01:24:32   for them and just takes down anything that looks like it might be copyrighted in any

01:24:36   way, like preemptively takes it down.

01:24:38   Well, that's partly because I mean, YouTube was a platform that was created and thrived

01:24:43   on completely ripping off everything from everybody. I mean, I know it's different now,

01:24:47   but that's like, that's its origin.

01:24:49   - But the fact that they'll do it preemptively

01:24:52   and on behalf, like Apple system is one actually

01:24:54   that makes sense.

01:24:55   It's like, look, it's not our job

01:24:56   to police your intellectual property.

01:24:57   If you see someone violating your intellectual property,

01:24:59   tell us and even then Apple will favor,

01:25:01   will assume that you are right and take it down, I think.

01:25:04   But like YouTube, like the big thing is like,

01:25:06   who is it who does the Every Frame a Painting channel

01:25:10   on YouTube, which is great by the way.

01:25:13   He puts up videos that, you know,

01:25:14   that talk about scenes from films.

01:25:16   And of course, you know, all the videos have scenes

01:25:17   from different movies, but it's fair use

01:25:19   because it's like he's using it to talk about film, right?

01:25:21   He's not putting the entire movie up,

01:25:22   but there is a scene from the movie in the video

01:25:24   and his videos always get taken down.

01:25:26   They just automatically get taken down

01:25:27   for copyright violations.

01:25:28   And then he has to go through this bureaucratic process

01:25:31   where they tell him he has to take it down

01:25:33   and he has to fill out a form and say it's fair use

01:25:35   and then they deny him and then you go back and forth

01:25:36   and back and forth.

01:25:37   Eventually they go back up after like three days,

01:25:39   a week, a month.

01:25:40   It's terrible that like you are presumed guilty

01:25:44   and have to prove your innocence.

01:25:45   And it's not even proving

01:25:46   It's just a big machine sending out like we noticed that you're using copyright stuff

01:25:50   We take you down immediately if you think this is an error

01:25:53   Please fill out these 18 forms and fight with this record company

01:25:55   Moo-boo studio or whatever until they give up like and the movie story really cared they can just say

01:26:01   We're taking this all the way to court

01:26:02   And then you then they win because you can't afford to hire a lawyer

01:26:04   But for the most part it's just a matter of filling out forms repeatedly to get YouTube to bring it back up

01:26:08   But anyway what I'm getting as the Nintendo should at least have somebody looking at the friggin star and filling out the forms right instead of

01:26:14   just letting them linger there because this shows

01:26:17   that this was Nintendo's blind spot.

01:26:20   Why are you pretending mobile games don't exist on phones?

01:26:23   Why can't you put something there?

01:26:25   Which is very different than the idea Nintendo,

01:26:27   you should stop making consoles,

01:26:29   you should stop making handhelds,

01:26:30   you should stop making games that work on consoles

01:26:32   and handhelds and concentrate entirely on making games

01:26:34   that work on mobile devices,

01:26:36   which is not what they're doing.

01:26:38   But the fact that they have to go do this,

01:26:40   it's basically for the survival of the company,

01:26:42   it's to say there is money available out there

01:26:44   that we're not taking and we need to take it

01:26:46   'cause we're not doing that hot

01:26:47   because nobody's buying Wii U's

01:26:49   and not many people are buying 3DS's.

01:26:51   That's kind of sad.

01:26:53   - Yeah, but I don't, I mean, we'll see.

01:26:55   Again, I'm wrong a lot, but I don't think

01:26:58   this is gonna solve that problem.

01:27:00   - Well, they still have, I mean,

01:27:01   their root problem is still the same.

01:27:02   You need to, you know, again, as I've said

01:27:05   many times in the past, if there exists

01:27:07   a market for devices that mostly pay games,

01:27:09   it is possible for Apple, or Apple,

01:27:11   for Nintendo to do well in that market.

01:27:15   It's not guaranteed, but it is possible,

01:27:17   because they have all the skills necessary

01:27:18   to do well in that market, minus a few

01:27:21   that they can kind of learn

01:27:22   if they get their act together, right?

01:27:24   But if we ever get to the point

01:27:26   where there is no way to do that,

01:27:27   where you cannot be a company that sells things

01:27:31   that mostly play games, they're screwed,

01:27:33   because they can't field a phone platformer.

01:27:35   They'd have to go Sega and say,

01:27:37   "All we do now is make software

01:27:38   "for other people's platforms,

01:27:39   iOS Android whatever else are out there, and they worked out great for Sega

01:27:43   Exactly right and so it's you know, but it's right now

01:27:47   There's definitely a market for home consoles the Xbox one playstation 4 doing well

01:27:51   Nintendo is not doing well because they made a bad product that people don't want so oh well

01:27:55   Do they have a second chance next is there going to be a next generation of consoles will there be a PlayStation 5 and next box?

01:28:01   Don't know what the hell they're gonna name the next one. That's their problem

01:28:05   Whatever if there is a next generation of products box 10. Yeah, why not? Why not just skip the time like Windows?

01:28:10   Nintendo may have a second shot at this right and that's the with the annex thing

01:28:16   Are they gonna make the same stupid mistakes with their with their next shot? Hopefully not hopefully they will learn from their past mistakes

01:28:22   That's that's their root problem

01:28:25   It's like this is kind of keeping the boat afloat and maybe getting some money

01:28:29   And maybe you know trying I mean you can imagine like if they do this

01:28:33   Like there can be interactions where there's an iOS game that interacts with the game that is available on the Wii U for like companion

01:28:38   Apps type of things they do that for like Mac apps where there's a companion

01:28:40   iOS app or websites for there's a companion iOS app like that's a potential market as well

01:28:46   But this is all just kind of like let's keep the lights on and fund our next thing

01:28:50   but the real the real proof of whether Nintendo is gonna

01:28:53   Go the route of Sega or be resurgent is is there an X generation of consoles and if there is

01:29:00   Does Nintendo do a good job and the rumors are the Nintendo is is because the Wii U is doing so terribly is gonna be like

01:29:07   Yeah, yeah, we you will make the games

01:29:09   We said we were gonna make for it

01:29:10   But we're kind of in a hurry to sort of shuffle the Wii U off the stage and show you our next thing like that

01:29:14   They will be the first ones out of the gate that the ps4 and Xbox one

01:29:17   Will go link go on many many years after Nintendo has already revved to do the next generation console

01:29:23   But we'll see they still have to make a good console

01:29:25   They still have to make good games that people want to play they have to make the right choices

01:29:28   That's that's what the future of the company is staked on not so much this deal

01:29:33   So before we go of curiosity if you had to pick one

01:29:39   Existing piece of IP to be made into an iOS game

01:29:43   What would that be and I must the obvious answer is Zelda because I know you love it so much but

01:29:47   What I'm not sure if perhaps you think something else would translate better

01:29:51   I don't think Zelda would translate particularly well either the problem is all the intellectual property that I really care about from Nintendo

01:29:58   I like because of the games they were featured in and most of those games are console games and console games

01:30:03   Tend not to translate well to a touchscreen or to like iOS type gaming

01:30:08   You know

01:30:10   There's a reason that the genres that do well on iOS are what they are

01:30:14   like they're not the same genres that do well on consoles or on PCs because it's just a different play environment like

01:30:20   infinite runners tower defense board games all those genres

01:30:26   work on a tiny little touch screen

01:30:28   none of those genres are the genres that you know Metroid or Zelda or even Mario like platforming doesn't work that well on

01:30:36   handhelds either like it's the the genres that become popular on each platform become popular for a reason so I think

01:30:42   There's no particular intellectual property that I think would translate really well

01:30:47   Maybe Star Fox because there are some sort of flying around games

01:30:51   But honestly, I think it's it's more like what Marco was saying only not quite the cynical version where it's like they're going to make

01:30:57   A game I'm not gonna say this is a silly example like make a match three game

01:31:01   But put Nintendo characters in the little things right that's that's the silly cynical example like not that bad, but similar

01:31:07   Some kind of infinite runner some kind of tower defense game some kind of board game with a bunch of Nintendo faces on things

01:31:14   But actually done well because all those genres can be done when to put well in probably look at alto's adventure

01:31:18   It is kind of like an infinite runner, but if you do a really really good job with it

01:31:22   It can stand head and shoulder above the other games that do similar things, right?

01:31:26   Same thing with all the other the genres that are popular and mobile. So I'm

01:31:30   My ties to Nintendo intellectual property have almost nothing to do with the characters and everything to do with the games

01:31:36   They appear in because those games have been exemplary. That is what that's why Sonic is not valued anymore

01:31:41   No one cares about Sonic if he repeatedly appears in crap games

01:31:44   Then you're like, you know what Sonic sucks science doesn't suck the games featuring him suck

01:31:48   Why do people care about Mario? Who cares? He's a freaking plumber. He's not a you know, but because they make awesome games

01:31:53   They respect that that IP so much. They do not allow Mario to be

01:31:56   Okay, and he's in a real Mario platform game. They polished the hell out of that game

01:32:01   That's why you know

01:32:03   Super Mario 3d world and Mario Galaxy and everything

01:32:06   That's why people still love Mario because they know when I see him in a game and he and it's a real Mario game and

01:32:10   It's a platformer. It is going to be an amazingly good game

01:32:13   Whereas when you see Sonic in a game you're like why even bother it's gonna be crap and it is

01:32:17   - My worry for Nintendo is you keep saying,

01:32:22   which I think is a good argument,

01:32:23   that as long as they can do well,

01:32:26   they can still survive as long as there is a market

01:32:29   for dedicated console things, basically.

01:32:31   My worry is that the things that they are not good at,

01:32:36   what you were saying earlier,

01:32:37   like all the social and online and app store kind of thing,

01:32:40   if you look at what the people who still buy consoles today,

01:32:46   what do they value, what's important, what succeeds among the kind of consoles that sell

01:32:51   well today? I think that, like Nintendo has really suffered in so many of those areas

01:33:01   that matter a lot today. And so much of what Nintendo used to have a total monopoly on,

01:33:07   which was like, like kind of nerd high quality and casual gaming, so much of that has moved

01:33:13   to mobile. And so what you're left with on the console side is people who like first

01:33:19   person shooters a lot and people who really want online play and online app stores and

01:33:23   stuff like that. So like the console market still exists but it has taken itself in a

01:33:29   direction where Nintendo really sucks at and the parts of gaming that Nintendo has always

01:33:35   been very good at, I think a disproportionate amount of those have moved to mobile for casual

01:33:41   gaming.

01:33:42   That's part of the DNA deal, actually.

01:33:43   That's the part I highlighted in this final thing.

01:33:46   Nintendo has tried at various times

01:33:48   to implement what I think is everyone--

01:33:50   like they suggest to their children,

01:33:52   how do online accounts work?

01:33:53   How does that work when you buy things under an account?

01:33:56   It's like, listen, Dad.

01:33:57   You have an account.

01:33:58   When you buy things, it's attached to the account.

01:34:00   That's it.

01:34:01   No matter what device you buy, you sign in with your username,

01:34:03   all the stuff you bought is there.

01:34:04   That's how it works everywhere else in the world.

01:34:07   So having-- they got rid of this Club Nintendo membership

01:34:10   and this Nintendo Network thing and they're replacing it with a

01:34:13   Sane online account system like iTunes like everything else you can possibly name like Netflix like whatever like all your stuff is attached to your

01:34:20   Account that's how it works

01:34:22   DNA is going to give that to them because of course DNA like every other

01:34:25   Company that's on the internet has such a system and can make one for them probably to their specifications probably the blah blah blah

01:34:30   But they've proven that they can't make that thing a part of this partnership deal is

01:34:34   You know how to make one of those things right make one of those for us, and you know okay?

01:34:39   They will do it so there there are at least

01:34:41   Recognizing the parts where they're weak and trying to dig themselves out of it

01:34:44   I think Nintendo can live on in the same way that sort of indie game studios live on like you don't have to make call

01:34:51   Duty to be successful there is a market for sort of I call them artsy-fartsy games on the overall

01:34:57   But like games that connoisseurs appreciate people who appreciate the fact

01:35:01   That a really good Zelda game is not the same as just any random adventure game

01:35:06   that a really good Mario game is not the same as just any random platformer that Nintendo is still the best in the world at

01:35:11   These few things that it does they're just bad at the surrounding stuff and when you're playing games like even though you know

01:35:18   Mario Kart you're driving the cart most of the time

01:35:21   I reckon it is an amazing game when you're driving every time you're not driving

01:35:24   It is not an amazing game because they can't even handle doing the menu systems that well

01:35:29   Same thing with Super Smash Brothers same thing with the new Mario games

01:35:34   They are amazing when you are playing them and it was still the best in the world of doing that type of game

01:35:39   Can they survive?

01:35:41   With just that skill that you need ancillary supporting skills

01:35:45   But I think they can survive

01:35:46   Like you know people like make kind of like a lifestyle business where like you're just making enough money to support yourself and your whatever

01:35:52   I think Nintendo could be like a lifestyle console business as long as anyone's buying any any kind of consoles

01:35:56   If the only games available on them is practically the case with the Wii U

01:36:00   It's like first party in Nintendo games and like five other games that you could possibly care about

01:36:04   That's basically what it is in the Wii U and the Wii U was not successful

01:36:08   but it didn't put the company out of business like

01:36:10   Nintendo could could live on past sort of the they could probably live on past the extension of dedicated consoles

01:36:16   Just just continuing to sell to the people who appreciate how much better the best in those games can be

01:36:22   and there's you're right that there's not as many of those because most people either want casual games or they want Call of Duty or

01:36:27   Grand Theft Auto and

01:36:29   You know Nintendo is not gonna make Grand Theft Auto and they're not gonna make Call of Duty and you know

01:36:34   For the iOS games, they're gonna take a little bit of the money, but they're their expertise is in those type of things

01:36:40   you know and I think

01:36:41   We talked about this before I think too like Miyamoto is not gonna live forever

01:36:45   What happens to the company and his the people he taught will not live forever like when the generational turnover happens?

01:36:51   Do they have enough shared culture Nintendo could to continue to?

01:36:57   Did you continue to make games like the ones they have made in the past several decades at the same level?

01:37:03   They've been making them when all the people who originally sort of brought them to that higher gone

01:37:07   All right. Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week cards against humanity automatic and backblaze and we will see you next week

01:37:15   Now the show is over they didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental

01:37:26   Oh it was accidental.

01:37:29   John didn't do any research.

01:37:31   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:37:34   Cause it was accidental.

01:37:36   Oh it was accidental.

01:37:39   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.

01:37:44   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.

01:37:53   ♪ So that's Casey List, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪

01:37:58   ♪ Anti-Marco Arman, S-I-R-A-C ♪

01:38:03   ♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

01:38:07   ♪ It's accidental ♪

01:38:09   ♪ They didn't mean to ♪

01:38:11   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:38:12   ♪ Accidental ♪

01:38:13   ♪ Tech podcast ♪

01:38:15   ♪ So long ♪

01:38:17   - So do we wanna talk about this top gear?

01:38:21   Fracas, kerfuffle?

01:38:23   disaster i do i do i'm sad guys i'm sad yeah i uh mourned the passing of top gear last night by

01:38:32   simultaneously with underscore watching um the race to verbiage i forget the episode number off

01:38:39   hand i think it's series five episode eight and the race across japan i totally forget the episode

01:38:46   number there but um we watched it simultaneously and we're i'm messaging back and forth like a

01:38:51   couple of children watching. I don't know, some stupid children's show. Anyway—

01:38:59   [Joey] You can make a Win Harry/Miss Sally reference,

01:39:01   but I think Margot hasn't seen that either.

01:39:02   [Marty] I haven't either.

01:39:03   [Joey] Oh, God.

01:39:04   [Marty] Hi. But it's sad. And, you know, it's frustrating because a lot of people,

01:39:10   like CMF in the chat, seem to think that any time you bring up Top Gear, their purpose in life

01:39:21   is to explain that Clarkson is a jerk and he should rot in, you know, whatever the opposite

01:39:27   of heaven is in your particular belief system. So inclusive.

01:39:30   So I don't understand that perspective. In that, I don't understand why this is binary.

01:39:39   Why can't I think that Clarkson is a jerk and yet enjoy the TV show that he is a part of?

01:39:49   Like, why does it have to be all or none?

01:39:52   And regardless of the answer there, the fact of the matter is, I liked Top Gear.

01:39:58   You can think I'm a jerk if you'd like.

01:40:01   You can think that I'm supporting things that Clarkson stands for,

01:40:06   which I'm not really sure how you make that leap, but fine, go ahead.

01:40:09   But in the end of the day, I loved the show.

01:40:13   I still love the show.

01:40:14   I'm sad that it's ended.

01:40:17   Maybe something will come from the ashes and maybe there will be something even better, but I'm sad that it ended. I'm

01:40:22   pissed off that Clarkson decided that a

01:40:26   lunch or dinner or whatever it was was enough to punch somebody over and ruined it for all of us, but

01:40:31   It is what it is and I'm sad

01:40:34   I think I gotta explain why people

01:40:36   uh

01:40:39   Can't square the idea of you liking the show but agreeing that the guy's a big jerk

01:40:43   Because like everyone has their limit of what you're willing to support it like Mel Gibson is another example like you know anti-semitic remarks

01:40:50   Sexist remarks like I think that's a pretty different level, but yeah, right

01:40:54   But I'm just like simple what I'm trying to get it is that there's a continuum like at a certain point

01:40:58   the person you're a fan of

01:41:00   Supports an idea or does something that puts them over the line

01:41:05   It's like an actor is actually it's a even bigger line because it's like well

01:41:09   I can still enjoy the movie they're in because they're not them they're being an actor right whereas Clark's

01:41:13   Clarkson is like essentially himself. He's not playing a role in you know in a formal sense, right?

01:41:18   So there's more of a close connection

01:41:19   So like just just put it this way

01:41:22   What would Clarkson have to do for you to not be able to enjoy him enjoy him on top gear anymore?

01:41:27   Like obviously there's there's a line that you know

01:41:29   What is your personal line and the reason why people can't square it is that he crossed their personal line possibly crossed it already

01:41:34   With like, you know racist remarks when they were in Thailand or whatever, right? And and this just confirms their previous beliefs

01:41:41   And I find that uncomfortable as well. We talked about this on an episode of The Incomfortable with like, authors like Orson Scott Card

01:41:49   who, you know, everyone loved Ender's Games, but think his, you know,

01:41:52   terrible bigotry about homosexuals is just, you just can't stand it.

01:41:56   It's like, can you like the book Ender's Game while also hating the guy who wrote it? And again,

01:42:00   I think authors it's easier to do that too, because they've made this work of fiction, you love the work of fiction,

01:42:04   but you hate the guy. Clarkson is the guy on the show.

01:42:07   So it's probably pretty the line for him to cross for people not to be able to enjoy the show anymore

01:42:12   It's just much closer for than it is for authors and actors and stuff

01:42:15   And I just feel like he's crossed the line for a lot of people and not even with this one event now

01:42:19   They're just you know gleefully saying he crossed the line and I didn't like him already and he now he got what he deserved

01:42:23   so that's why I think and

01:42:25   You know, he obviously hasn't crossed your own line and not saying that your line is wrong other people's lines are right

01:42:29   but that's why so many people are

01:42:31   Surprised by the fact that you can still separate the two because I think it is much harder for

01:42:36   People to separate the two when the guy is the guy on the show, you know, yeah that makes sense

01:42:40   I don't know. It was just very frustrating because when when the BBC finally made their statement and

01:42:46   They said, you know, we're not gonna renew Clarkson's contract and I had tweeted about oh, you know, that sucks. I'm sad. I

01:42:54   Don't recall my initial tweet having been

01:42:58   You know, this is wrong. I didn't say that that he didn't deserve it

01:43:03   I just thought this sucks and this is sad and oh my god

01:43:06   I mean welcome to the internet Casey, but everyone came out of the woodwork was like eyes a jerk

01:43:10   I friggin deserves it. Oh, how could you support this dill hole and blah blah blah. It's like dude

01:43:16   Can I just be say I did they say dill hole? No, but you know

01:43:20   Can I just be sad for like 30 seconds that my favorite TV show is ending?

01:43:24   Is that really that egregious to the entire internet?

01:43:27   What's egregious is not that you're sad that the show is ending but that it was still your favorite show despite this guy being out

01:43:32   Like that's because it was over the line for them and they're saying how could you even still watch the show in good conscience?

01:43:36   And so it's not so much that you're sad the show is ending

01:43:39   It's like the whole other rest of the time when you were enjoying the show

01:43:41   that's the time they thought you were a bad person because you're still enjoying and watching the show and still supporting the show because you know,

01:43:46   Like that's that's what it was

01:43:48   And then it's just this is just making them come out and remind you that the whole time you were enjoying the show

01:43:52   They thought you were a bad person because they hate him so much. Well, you know what then I'm a bad person

01:43:55   I mean, whatever. I I really don't care if people want to judge me because I like a television show about cars

01:44:01   Whatever. No, and you know what and I've been I've also been tweeting about this because I feel similarly to you that you know

01:44:07   I was always enjoying the show. I'm very sad the show is ending

01:44:11   I do recognize that Clarkson ended the show like this was his fault

01:44:16   I like I'm not denying that at all like his actions here were way over any line

01:44:21   And and like the last in a series of things not like this is a one-time incident

01:44:25   You know what? I mean? Like I'm not that familiar with all the behind-the-scenes drama that has happened in the past of the show

01:44:30   I'm really not I've watched the show, but I have not followed the controversies that I wasn't even aware

01:44:37   There were so many controversies until this started coming up

01:44:39   but you know looking at

01:44:42   His general attitude on this show that the style with which he says things the style with which he does things

01:44:48   He is like a lovable ass on the show. Like that's his character on the show

01:44:54   I don't know what he's like in real life

01:44:56   Is his character also a conservative racist bigot on the show or is that just a side effect of the actual person?

01:45:01   Like there's that's where you know

01:45:02   Like it's one thing to be a curmudgeon as the other just secretly think they harbor regressive notions that they know enough not to

01:45:08   Devoice publicly right? And so with that again, I don't know. I don't know the guy personally the way I interpreted it

01:45:14   over time as I was watching the show and he would and he would say like off-color things I

01:45:19   interpreted it as

01:45:22   Pushing the line or stepping over the line for comedy purposes and so comedy is a tough thing

01:45:28   like when you see when when you try to define the appropriate relationship between

01:45:33   Comedy and sensitive topics or hurtful topics

01:45:37   It's always a blurry line and and different cultures and different groups of people

01:45:42   Define that line differently and and what is over the line and what is what is part of humor?

01:45:48   Everyone defines that differently. And so I think by

01:45:52   Like by by me and Casey being so surprised

01:45:54   I think at how many people just really hate Jeremy Clarkson like I was shocked by that

01:46:00   Yep

01:46:00   Because I've always interpreted the the way he talks on the show

01:46:04   To be for the sake of good humor and even even when it is a little bit over the line a little bit uncomfortable

01:46:11   I've always assumed that that the intention there was to to provoke a laugh to be funny and not to be actually

01:46:18   Mean-spirited and to intend harm. I think there's a different political dynamic in the UK that we don't understand like they're their left

01:46:26   And right range is unfamiliar to us mostly because all of them are way to the left of the crazy right wing here in America

01:46:32   but I think we're not

01:46:34   connected to that dynamic and

01:46:37   Therefore I think we don't have a good read all we see is Jeremy Clarkson on the show right and we don't have a read of

01:46:42   like because like I don't know about you but the only time I ever saw him is on

01:46:47   the show like I didn't see interviews with him off the show I didn't see him

01:46:50   doing press I didn't see him like whereas I get the impression that the

01:46:54   people who watch the show in the UK know him from outside the show they see him

01:46:59   on other programs they know about him as a person and so the things he says in

01:47:04   the show rather than seeming like just being cheeky it's like that is the tip

01:47:09   of an iceberg with which we are all too familiar, right?

01:47:12   And that he represents some continuum

01:47:14   in the political spectrum,

01:47:15   and that I know his support of candidate X shows me,

01:47:18   like, I don't know his background like that either,

01:47:22   but it's so clear that when the people

01:47:24   that don't like him see him,

01:47:25   they see the whole person,

01:47:27   and we just see the part that's on the show,

01:47:29   and the part that's on the show is necessarily,

01:47:31   you know, trimmed down and can be interpreted,

01:47:35   especially by, I think, an American audience

01:47:36   or an audience that's not familiar

01:47:37   with the political climate there,

01:47:39   Just being witty and interesting and that's one point on the chat room the turbo racist right-wing bigots in the United States are usually not

01:47:45   as charming as Jeremy Clarkson, you know what I mean? Like I don't know if that's just a

01:47:48   Divide like you know, so I feel like I don't know him either

01:47:53   and

01:47:54   I

01:47:56   Think I was watching Top Gear for reasons that are different than both of you

01:47:59   I like the part where they talk about cars and review cars

01:48:01   You must have hated the show. Yeah, I did not like almost any other part of it

01:48:06   But I enjoyed the show, but I knew absolutely nothing

01:48:10   about any of those people outside of the words they said

01:48:12   on that television program.

01:48:13   And even just within that, with the few incidents

01:48:16   that Clarkson has done, I find myself not hating him,

01:48:22   but it's kind of like the Bill Cosby stuff.

01:48:25   Like, oh, you wish you didn't know this,

01:48:27   because now your opinion must necessarily

01:48:30   be drastically changed for somebody

01:48:31   that you previously just liked as an entertainer.

01:48:34   and now it starts to cross the line for me

01:48:37   where I can't separate this person, the entertainer,

01:48:39   from the things he does elsewhere, you know what I mean?

01:48:43   - Yeah. - Yeah, and that's,

01:48:45   you know, the big disappointment for Top Gear fans

01:48:48   is that he really did something really bad here,

01:48:52   and now his image is tarnished for everybody,

01:48:57   and he killed the show, he ended the show by his actions,

01:49:01   so that sucks.

01:49:02   - And it seems like he's a troubled person too,

01:49:04   don't you think?

01:49:05   Like, that's not--

01:49:06   - Yeah, I mean, anybody who would assault someone

01:49:08   over a meal at the end of a shoot,

01:49:10   I don't care what kind of bad day you've had,

01:49:12   that's like, that's a problem.

01:49:14   - But that's a deeper problem.

01:49:15   It's not like he's just as temperate.

01:49:16   Like, I don't know what his deeper,

01:49:18   that's the whole thing.

01:49:18   We don't know what his deeper problem is.

01:49:19   What are you so upset about?

01:49:20   You're rich, you get to drive fancy cars all the time.

01:49:22   Like, obviously there is some deeper problem here

01:49:25   with him personally or with the show dynamic

01:49:27   or whatever it is, it's not about the stupid,

01:49:30   you know, food, right?

01:49:32   That's not what the fight is about and so that makes me sad too because it shows that you know whatever it is

01:49:36   That's troubling him is deeply troubling him because the stakes were high here

01:49:40   He knew he was like on you know final notice from all the other stuff

01:49:43   That's me like he should have been on his best behavior and yet whatever the hell is bothering him

01:49:47   Came up to the point where it caused that and that's just like

01:49:51   Yeah, I don't it may you know you expect like oh when I'm rich and famous

01:49:56   I will be happy and then you see all the movies that say well actually when you're rich or famous

01:49:59   You'll be sad because you'll be lonely and isolated and it's like don't you want to think that it works out for somebody can somebody

01:50:04   Have a dream job and be ridiculously wealthy and drive around in a Lamborghini or Ferrari and actually be happy

01:50:09   Apparently not Jeremy Clarkson. Well, you used to hear about those people

01:50:12   Well, I mean, I think Hammond seems like a reasonably happy guy. I think may I don't know anything about them either

01:50:17   You're right. They do I'm

01:50:19   Just I don't know any I don't you know, it's like I don't need to know celebrities lives or whatever

01:50:23   You just want to you want to believe the fantasy that you want to believe that like I don't know anything about your life

01:50:28   I don't want to know anything about your life, but I believe you are well adjusted and have a happy life because what you do for

01:50:32   Living looks really fun, right?

01:50:34   Yeah, and the thing is I agree with you John that that maybe my line is just further away than other people's that doesn't mean

01:50:40   I'm right. It doesn't mean I'm wrong, but my line hasn't been crossed yet

01:50:44   But the thing is I mean if you watch the first time they go through America where they went from Miami to New Orleans

01:50:50   they

01:50:53   completely eviscerated all of America and they seem to go out of their way to find some of the worst

01:50:59   Portions of America and as an American I found that really hard to watch really hard because they

01:51:06   Antagonized Americans for the purpose of getting them to show really disgusting behavior, but you know what?

01:51:13   that's part of America and

01:51:15   That's unfortunate

01:51:18   it, but that is part of our country. And there are people in our country, fellow citizens

01:51:24   that act that way. And just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's not a representation

01:51:32   of America. It may not be the most fair representation of America. I think there are a lot of Americans

01:51:37   that are a lot less stupid as they portrayed us all to be. They obviously make fun of us

01:51:43   always for us being fat. Don't forget cheese. We put cheese on everything.

01:51:50   And cheese. Yeah, we put cheese on everything. And those jokes, they kind of sting, but good

01:51:57   God, they're jokes on a TV show about cars. Again, maybe my line is just further away

01:52:03   than other people's. And again, like you said, Jon, and like you said, Marco, I don't get

01:52:07   to see the other parts of Clarkson. The only parts I see are the parts on the show. And

01:52:13   yes, he's offensive. Yes, he's an ass. But whatever, like, that's the shtick. That's the whole idea.

01:52:20   That's why he was there. But it's not just being an ass. I think that I'm not trying to push you

01:52:25   closer to your line, but I think your line is probably the same as us. It's just that you are

01:52:28   not forced to confront the realities of the things that this person really believes. Which I'm not

01:52:34   saying you should be forced to confront and you should not seek this information out, but if you

01:52:38   truly knew what was in the heart of hearts of many people that you admire, you would admire them less.

01:52:42   and things that come out that reveal like that you know whatever regressive notion someone actually

01:52:49   holds really dear about whatever people of a different race about women about anything

01:52:53   you do not want to be confronted with that you you know making jokes being a jerk being silly

01:52:59   being cheeky doing that you know using stereotypes for humor fine but then saying but really i

01:53:04   believe in my heart of hearts that women can never be president because they're too emotional like

01:53:08   if someone like no seriously i really have to have a serious conversation about you why women should

01:53:12   never be president. Like, you can't have that conversation with someone you admire and not be like, just, just crumble and just go,

01:53:17   "Oh god, I didn't know!" And now it's like, "Oh, now can I?" You know, that's, that's not that I think he's, you know,

01:53:23   I'm just making this up. Like, make up a bias that you would, that if someone really truly believed it and deepened their fire,

01:53:29   but you'd be like, you just check out and you'd be like, "Man,

01:53:32   just, I can't, I can, where you are going, I cannot follow. I now know too much about what is in your heart

01:53:38   and it is terrible." And

01:53:40   Then you have to like try to reconcile like if you wrote a really good book

01:53:44   Can I still enjoy the book if you were an actor to movie? Can I still enjoy the movie?

01:53:47   But if you're on a TV show as yourself playing yourself boy, that's tough

01:53:51   You know and somebody brought up in the chat. It's like Adam Baldwin

01:53:55   I think the actions that he has taken are deplorable disgusting and terrible and him

01:54:02   somehow energizing the whole gamer gate movement and coining the term that is

01:54:07   Revolting to me. I find that absolutely disgusting but you bet your butt

01:54:12   I love Firefly and I think it's a tremendous television show and I love the serenity movie like I

01:54:16   Again, maybe my line is different from others. But I think that's different. Don't you think it's different with actors?

01:54:22   I feel the same way he's terrible

01:54:23   but I

01:54:24   can still enjoy

01:54:25   His role as an actor and like the only place that comes gross is like if he's like an actual criminal or murder and you don't

01:54:31   Want to do anything that could possibly give him money, right? But that's not you know, he's just

01:54:35   He holds terrible ideas, right?

01:54:37   But can you still watch and enjoy Firefly?

01:54:41   I still can, despite sharing your opinions

01:54:44   about Adam Baldwin, I can still enjoy the show

01:54:45   because he's an actor.

01:54:47   Could I enjoy a talk show where he interviewed celebrities?

01:54:50   I could not.

01:54:51   That's the difference, I think.

01:54:52   - See, I can't even make that distinction.

01:54:54   To me, if I find out that an actor

01:54:56   is really a pretty severe jerk,

01:55:00   I can't even really enjoy their stuff

01:55:02   they're acting in anymore.

01:55:03   - It helps that he played a jerk in Firefly too.

01:55:07   I gotta admit it does help that.

01:55:08   If he was the hero of Firefly, if he was Mal,

01:55:10   it would be a big problem, but he's not.

01:55:13   He's Jane, and Jane is pretty terrible on the show,

01:55:15   so it kinda like matches up, you know what I mean?

01:55:17   Like, he wasn't really acting, he really is terrible.

01:55:19   - Oh, goodness.

01:55:21   - So anyway, back to Top Gear.

01:55:22   I think, trying to close it out here,

01:55:26   anyone who's watched the show on a regular basis

01:55:30   knows that it was probably pretty close to the end anyway.

01:55:34   - Oh yeah.

01:55:35   - Every new season that came out, or series,

01:55:38   in British parlance, every new series that came out,

01:55:43   I was always a little bit surprised,

01:55:44   like, oh, they made another one.

01:55:46   Like, every time that they announced

01:55:47   there would be another one, that was always like,

01:55:49   pleasantly good, surprising news,

01:55:52   because I was always just assuming

01:55:53   that the current season was always gonna be the last season.

01:55:56   And a lot of it was getting worse over time.

01:55:59   - Oh yeah.

01:56:00   of the bits were getting more and more contrived. More contrived? Is that possible? I have a,

01:56:05   I know you don't share my hatred of the bits, but God, I hate them so much. I understand,

01:56:09   I understand that Casey enjoyed them. I don't begrudge anyone their enjoyment. It's just not

01:56:13   my, that's not why I was watching the show. And that's, that's the thing right there, John,

01:56:16   is that people begrudge Marco and I enjoying the show. And that's what I find so bothersome.

01:56:22   But only because they don't like the person. Like, I don't think anyone cares that you like their

01:56:28   Stupid fake bits right it's just whatever whatever floats your boat, and you know sometimes I get a chuckle out of them too

01:56:34   but like you know

01:56:36   There the thing the thing about top gear is first of all to talk about the show itself the production quality was high

01:56:41   We can all agree on that. Oh, you know how much the show cost to produce everything was shot well

01:56:46   it was you know there was not a lot of flab to it the production quality was high and

01:56:51   They did car reviews, and they did car reviews

01:56:54   I think in a very interesting way I think even more interesting than a lot of the more YouTube things

01:56:57   So if you wanted to see car reviews with wit and humor

01:57:01   and not taking yourself too seriously,

01:57:02   they're the best I've ever seen.

01:57:04   They were like, you know, three minutes long sometimes,

01:57:07   but, and they were not like, it's not like reading,

01:57:10   it's not like reading an article in a car magazine

01:57:13   about a car where you read the seven preview articles,

01:57:15   the first drive article, the review, the comparison,

01:57:18   like that is a different thing.

01:57:19   They, the form they were working in,

01:57:22   and I don't know if they defined this form or not,

01:57:23   but they were excellent at that form

01:57:26   for doing what they did.

01:57:27   And they also had this stuff where they did a bunch of fake stuff that made you think

01:57:29   they were going on a big journey through some country or whatever.

01:57:31   But they did what they did well.

01:57:34   And so that's what, the reason the show is so insanely popular, right, in the face of

01:57:38   things like all the people doing, are using YouTube, in the face of Motor Week owns Mills,

01:57:43   Maryland 2-1-1-1-7, like there have been other car things on television, but Top Gear was

01:57:48   head and shoulders above them in the area that it decided to define.

01:57:51   Yeah, I don't know.

01:57:53   I'm just sad.

01:57:55   I'm sad that it ended.

01:57:56   I'm sad it's Clarkson's fault. I'm sad that I'm not allowed to be sad about it, apparently, according to half the internet.

01:58:02   But...

01:58:03   You know what? Screw those guys. Be sad about it.

01:58:05   I agree, and I am sad about it.

01:58:07   And I mean, I wouldn't have said I was sad if I was that worried about what they're saying.

01:58:10   I'm sad that the show has forced us all to say "top gear," putting emphasis instead of saying "top gear."

01:58:18   [laughter]

01:58:19   Top gear.

01:58:20   It's the British way to say it. Top gear.

01:58:22   We all just say "top gear," and it drives me insane.

01:58:24   And when people say series it also upsets me greatly

01:58:27   Yeah, I agree with that. So that is I think that is the sad legacy of Top Gear

01:58:32   Goodness no, but I don't know. We'll see what I mean. You never know what'll happen

01:58:39   They they may have so I assume the show will be back

01:58:42   Do we all assume the show will be back because the name the name is too bad. Yeah, I think it will be I

01:58:47   I'm sure it'll be back with some people in it. I don't think you look at me

01:58:51   - I'm just saying there will be a show called Top Gear.

01:58:54   - Yeah, but already there's a couple shows called Top Gear

01:58:56   and most of them suck.

01:58:57   I mean like--

01:58:58   - Well, American Top Gear, I agree.

01:59:01   That manages to like remove all the parts that I like

01:59:05   from real Top Gear.

01:59:06   - That's the thing, like if you take it back

01:59:08   to it just being a car show

01:59:12   and you don't have these characters in it,

01:59:15   it's a lot less interesting.

01:59:16   - Well, American Top Gear isn't a car show.

01:59:18   They try to do all the same bits.

01:59:19   They just it just doesn't doesn't gel, you know, and I feel like the production college quality is way lower

01:59:26   I don't know. I think it is it's possible to have in the same way the Daily Show

01:59:30   I remember all Craig Kilborn's leaving the other show. Well, that show is over. Well, not quite like it could be reborn

01:59:34   I'm fully willing to agree that another set of interesting charismatic people who really have passionate opinions about cars

01:59:41   Could make that show work again and then so I assume none of these three guys are gonna be back

01:59:45   Where do they go off and do something? I'm sure plenty of people are willing to hire them to do a car show for them

01:59:50   Call whatever the hell they want to call it

01:59:51   So I think you will still be able to see these people talking about cars and you'll probably still be able to see a show

01:59:56   Whose name is top gear?

01:59:58   sometime in the future

02:00:00   I don't know

02:00:01   I I think like the same things that were making it get worse over time and and get kind of played out

02:00:07   I think those same things apply to any people you put in the show

02:00:12   Like it isn't it isn't these people were necessarily played out

02:00:15   It's that like I think the show did everything it could do it in the way we know it today

02:00:21   Well, it's like the daily show with Greg Kilborn like the format changed when John Stewart came to focus the format the way the show

02:00:27   Worked changed. It wasn't like if show where we make funny jokes making fun of celebrities

02:00:31   It became basically like a news commentary show and that was John Stewart's doing because that came from him a new set of people can

02:00:36   Take the show in a totally new direction

02:00:38   That's what I'm talking about with new people like it's not gonna be just the same show with different hosts

02:00:41   Whatever is inside those people who take over the show they can define the direction of the show goes

02:00:47   What is it going to be like I don't think it's going to be like the top gear that we're familiar with

02:00:51   Yeah, I don't see what happens and I suspect the three then we're gonna stick around and do something

02:00:58   Different and you know there's been rumblings about them going to Netflix

02:01:02   Yeah, we'll see yeah

02:01:03   I wouldn't be surprised if they do the direct-to-video thing that Clarkson has done many times in the past

02:01:09   But they're also they're also pretty old right I mean yeah

02:01:12   What is Clarkson like early 50s May is early to mid 50s, and I think a certain point?

02:01:17   I think they're more limited in the types of things they can do even if they wanted to keep doing this kind of show for

02:01:22   someone else

02:01:23   You know you can't have a 65 year olds going through Bolivia in a 4x4

02:01:27   Yeah, and and also you know the the show they've been making so far had as you said a pretty sizable budget

02:01:35   Any anywhere else they could go they might be forced to dramatically reduce

02:01:40   The things they do and that might that might just not work for them or might not work for for anything

02:01:45   We want from them, but we'll see

02:01:47   [door closes]

02:01:49   [BLANK_AUDIO]