109: Bigger in the Pocket


00:00:00   All right, is there anything we need to talk about other than the fact the show is gonna be all follow-up?

00:00:03   The things the other things we have to talk about what is it like Apple TV and all that business?

00:00:07   That'll keep because it's all just rumors. So we should just get

00:00:10   If we just end up doing follow-up and stuff, that's fine

00:00:13   Nintendo and I think that will keep - I think because also nothing is happening in there

00:00:18   It's just an announcement, but we'll get to one of those

00:00:20   Well, don't worry about is what I'm saying because all the other stuff that we think is news news isn't really news

00:00:24   It's all just future news

00:00:27   How does Nintendo basically get bought by the world and we don't talk about it this week get bought by the world

00:00:32   I mean they're basically selling out like they're like they're admitting defeat

00:00:37   The reason I said it'll keep is because it's a press release and an announcement

00:00:42   It's not a thing a product, you know, we'll talk about I think it signifies something, you know

00:00:48   Yeah, no, I know but I'm saying is it will keep if we talk about it next week

00:00:52   Nothing new will have happened between this week and next week related to that story

00:00:56   It's not as if.

00:00:57   Anyway, we'll get to it.

00:00:59   Our entire podcast this week should be discussing like this, like before we're actually going

00:01:03   to say anything about a topic, just talking about what we're not going to say and what

00:01:06   we're going to say.

00:01:07   Doesn't matter.

00:01:08   We go in order.

00:01:09   We go from top to bottom.

00:01:10   Oh, God.

00:01:11   Follow forward.

00:01:12   Follow up.

00:01:13   Follow out?

00:01:14   Follow in.

00:01:15   Follow casting.

00:01:16   We have a lot of follow up today, and it starts with our tipster having a compatriot.

00:01:19   This compatriot said, "Back to the hub."

00:01:22   This was in the middle of an email.

00:01:23   It's real and it's coming just not as soon as the tips are thought it'll probably come when the MacBook Pros are announced whenever that

00:01:30   May be right when so the 15 inch retina MacBook Pro has not been updated yet for Broadwell and does not have the force to extract

00:01:36   Pad yet presumably it will be updated sometime later this year

00:01:40   Possibly the summer because that's because right now the only reason it wasn't dated yet as far as we know is

00:01:45   Because the quad core Broadwell chips aren't actually out from Intel yet

00:01:49   my question on this device is

00:01:53   whether they're gonna actually just skip that entirely and go and wait for Skylake because if Skylake is on schedule, which it

00:01:59   theoretically is

00:02:02   Then Skylake quad core chips can't be that much further off and with the Skylake chipset

00:02:07   Not only do you get faster CPU performance?

00:02:10   But you also get you know new RAM types and bit and the big thing would be you get Thunderbolt 3

00:02:13   And then that means you could drive a 5k external display if there was one

00:02:17   So this is the curse of the pro suffix that machines that have a pro suffix eventually skip Intel chip generations

00:02:23   Well, yeah, well what Intel messes up their entire consumer lineup for an entire year

00:02:28   I mean it Intel always messes up and delays the Xeon that's no big deal

00:02:33   And in fact, there are new Xeons for the Mac Pro and Apple's not using them. They're skipping a Xeon generation

00:02:38   I don't know why but they are

00:02:40   But yeah for the MacBook Pro, I would expect 15 inch to be this summer

00:02:44   with either Broadwell or Skylake,

00:02:47   the timing works out that if they can wait

00:02:50   until probably late summer, I think they can get Skylake,

00:02:53   and that would certainly be a better update.

00:02:55   - But as you said, Intel is very often late-ish with their,

00:03:00   it's all like, don't you think the Skylake

00:03:03   will inevitably be a little bit later

00:03:04   than we think it's going to be as well?

00:03:06   - Well, the issue with Broadwell was the die shrink

00:03:09   and getting the 14-nanometer process to have usable yields.

00:03:14   But Skylake is a micro-architecture change,

00:03:16   so it's not related to the yield issue.

00:03:19   So Intel is claiming,

00:03:21   and they're still claiming this even recently,

00:03:23   they are claiming that even though Broadwell

00:03:25   was extremely late,

00:03:26   that Skylake will actually not be late,

00:03:29   which means Skylake is shipping

00:03:30   in the second half of this year.

00:03:31   - Could be.

00:03:32   - Like Broadwell's actually intentionally going to be

00:03:34   a really short generation.

00:03:36   So the only question is,

00:03:37   what does Apple and one of the other PC manufacturers

00:03:40   do with that?

00:03:41   Do they actually make Broadwell products in mass,

00:03:43   or do they just make a handful like what Apple has done

00:03:45   and wait until Skylake for their higher end stuff

00:03:49   where it'll make more of a difference.

00:03:50   And I think if Thunderbolt 3 is right around the corner,

00:03:53   it would be unfortunate to have a 15 inch MacBook Pro update

00:03:57   like months before you can get the Thunderbolt 3 chipsets.

00:04:01   - You're assuming they'll have Thunderbolt 4 ports on them.

00:04:04   - I think they would.

00:04:05   This new tipster, the friend of the tipster says

00:04:08   that the updated Pros will have more than one port.

00:04:12   Now that does not by necessity mean it will have Thunderbolt, of course, but apparently

00:04:17   there will be at least more than one John, and so you can finally relax and be happy.

00:04:22   Well the context of that was it will have more than one USB-C port.

00:04:26   The number of other ports was not specified.

00:04:29   But I'm thinking Thunderbolt is not dead.

00:04:32   I'm thinking Thunderbolt continues on much like FireWire 800 did for so long, because

00:04:36   it continues on in the high-end products where, like, the typical things people would plug

00:04:40   drive into a laptop for, you don't really need Thunderbolt for most people's needs.

00:04:45   So it's fine if the low-end laptops don't have Thunderbolt anymore, that's not a huge

00:04:48   deal, especially something like this UltraPortable. And keep in mind, the new Airs still do, you

00:04:54   can still get an 11 and 13 inch Air or a 13 inch Retina MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt.

00:04:59   So it still goes down to the 11 inch Air, I mean that's a pretty good coverage right

00:05:04   there. So anyway, Thunderbolt is fine, it'll be here for a long time, so it is still worth

00:05:09   especially considering the high-end stuff

00:05:11   like the Mac Pro and everything,

00:05:12   it is still worth it for Apple to invest in Thunderbolt,

00:05:14   to support it fully, and to issue Thunderbolt 3

00:05:19   when it comes out.

00:05:20   - I don't remember seeing this email.

00:05:22   I didn't put it in the follow-up,

00:05:23   and people in the chat room were complaining about this,

00:05:25   and I agree with the complaints.

00:05:27   Where does this come from?

00:05:28   Why does it get to be in the follow-up?

00:05:32   Why do we believe this person?

00:05:34   - I just thought it was interesting

00:05:35   that somebody else apparently tried to double down

00:05:38   on behalf of the original person.

00:05:39   - I could have written this email.

00:05:41   - Yes.

00:05:41   - I'm gonna start doing that.

00:05:42   I'm gonna start writing stuff, writing plausible things

00:05:45   into our email form and see if you two are suckered

00:05:48   into putting it into the show notes.

00:05:49   Maybe I've already done that and I'll reveal it in a year.

00:05:52   - That is a long, long troll.

00:05:55   But yeah, if that would make you happy, John,

00:05:57   to ruin your own show, feel free.

00:05:58   - The tipster's been in the house the whole time.

00:06:01   - Yeah, exactly.

00:06:03   All right, what are we moving on to?

00:06:05   Oh, see, this was out of order.

00:06:08   We should have started with this top one

00:06:09   because the top one was a accidental neutral follow-up.

00:06:13   We're talking about the Apple Watch

00:06:15   and the potential for it to gain value

00:06:18   as a sort of collectible piece of electronics like the,

00:06:22   I tweeted about this and I almost tweeted the wrong thing

00:06:24   and now I can only remember the wrong thing.

00:06:26   It's not summer games, it's sports championship.

00:06:29   Someone in the chat room will tell me.

00:06:31   That's super rare NES cart

00:06:32   that goes for a lot of money these days,

00:06:35   that starts with the letter S,

00:06:37   I think it's sports champions,

00:06:38   or maybe it's the Nintendo World Champion card.

00:06:40   Anyway, if you got an original Apple Watch,

00:06:44   and especially as Marco pointed out,

00:06:45   if they don't make any more of the original,

00:06:47   not original Apple Watch, original Apple Watch Edition,

00:06:49   and they don't make any more of these gold ones after that,

00:06:51   which seems unlikely to me, but it could happen,

00:06:54   then it could be worth more than you paid for it

00:06:57   in the somewhat distant future, purely based on its rarity.

00:07:00   Nintendo World Championships.

00:07:02   the chat room says, is that rare car.

00:07:04   So anyway, one of the things I threw out there

00:07:06   related to that is say, you know,

00:07:09   very expensive sports cars that they only make a few of.

00:07:12   Like if you had bought the McLaren F1,

00:07:13   I said it was really expensive,

00:07:15   but now it goes for a lot more

00:07:16   than you would have paid for it.

00:07:18   And I threw out some numbers.

00:07:19   I think I threw out like 250 grand

00:07:21   and now they're like in the millions or something.

00:07:24   And I was way off.

00:07:25   I think I was going for the 250 or maybe 232

00:07:28   because I was thinking of the max speed

00:07:29   of the McLaren F1 from back in the day.

00:07:31   But TBI Rally Sport on Twitter gave us the correct numbers.

00:07:38   McLaren F1 was originally $960,000, so not cheap,

00:07:41   because that was in, what, 1990-something dollars?

00:07:45   And they currently go for around $10 million now.

00:07:47   And I recently saw a white one, the only white McLaren

00:07:50   F1 ever made, going for $14 million.

00:07:53   So if you had invested a million dollars in a McLaren F1

00:07:56   in the '90s, you would have got a 10x return on your investment

00:07:59   if it didn't kill you.

00:08:00   I'm not sure I would take that deal.

00:08:02   Like buy a white car for 10 years and then sell it?

00:08:05   I don't know.

00:08:06   - Well, it was the only white one.

00:08:06   It's all about rarity.

00:08:07   - Yeah.

00:08:08   - Not the pony.

00:08:09   - I think there's a reason they only made one.

00:08:11   - I know you're trying to mess with me,

00:08:12   but there is a reason they only made one.

00:08:13   It's that it looks terrible.

00:08:15   - It doesn't look that bad.

00:08:16   I mean, it is generally a nice looking car.

00:08:19   It's a couple of awkward things about it.

00:08:20   Like the rear overhang is really small,

00:08:22   so it kind of looks clipped in that way.

00:08:24   But yeah, like I said, you get the car in white.

00:08:26   If it's a really nice shape, it could still look good.

00:08:28   McLaren F1 almost pulls it off.

00:08:30   Almost. I don't know, it does not look great in my personal estimation and according to Marco, I like everything that is white ever.

00:08:39   Well, you just happened to have bought all of your cars in white. And each time it just kind of happened to you.

00:08:46   No, the only time, there are two times I've bought cars on my own. And one time it was deliberate, one time it was not. Everything else, it was a hand-me-down.

00:08:56   - And Marco, you had something from Ed Ryan.

00:09:00   - Yes, last week we talked about Bluetooth headphones.

00:09:04   And we were talking in the context of Apple eliminating

00:09:07   the headphone jack from their stuff eventually

00:09:10   and switching over to requiring Bluetooth headphones

00:09:12   for everything and what that would mean.

00:09:14   My main complaints about it were that of not only complexity

00:09:18   but also battery life.

00:09:19   Then you have this other thing that has to be charged

00:09:22   and everything.

00:09:23   We got a lot of good feedback on this.

00:09:25   Some of it came from the hearing aid world,

00:09:27   because they have a similar set of problems

00:09:29   with hearing aids of,

00:09:30   you wanna make something as small as possible

00:09:32   that can pump sound into your ears,

00:09:35   but that also has good battery life.

00:09:37   And hearing aids manage pretty impressive battery life

00:09:40   these days, especially the high-end ones,

00:09:41   but there are, from what I understand,

00:09:43   some pretty substantial costs associated with that.

00:09:46   I don't know much more about it than that,

00:09:49   but it seems like that might be an indicator

00:09:51   of what's possible in the, not necessarily close future,

00:09:54   but what is possible with the cutting edge battery technology

00:09:57   and miniaturization of headphone type things.

00:10:00   But a number of other issues were pointed out

00:10:03   specifically about Bluetooth headphones.

00:10:05   The biggest one, which I had totally forgotten about,

00:10:08   is latency.

00:10:09   A lot of Bluetooth headphones,

00:10:10   and it seems like this might differ per model

00:10:13   or maybe per application or something.

00:10:15   This seems like it's inconsistent.

00:10:17   And I've seen this myself where it's better

00:10:19   or worse with some.

00:10:21   latency is a big problem when you're watching videos,

00:10:25   or of course anything that requires really up-to-date sound

00:10:28   to match what's on screen, there to be no latency

00:10:30   or, you know, inaudibly short latency.

00:10:33   I have found with all the Bluetooth headphones I've tried,

00:10:35   when I did, I did like a little roundup with it,

00:10:37   with I think four or five of them,

00:10:38   and I found the latency was noticeably bad

00:10:41   on all of them enough that like playing a video

00:10:43   on an iPhone, I didn't try it on a Mac,

00:10:45   but playing a video from an iPhone

00:10:47   was just unbearably annoying,

00:10:49   because the latency was extremely noticeable.

00:10:51   So, you know, it was out of sync,

00:10:52   the audio was out of sync with the video.

00:10:54   - I would just like to put it on record

00:10:55   that I use really cheap, really crappy Bluetooth headphones

00:10:58   with my Mac for nine hours a day, five days a week,

00:11:03   and I have never noticed any latency issues.

00:11:06   And these are not fancy headphones.

00:11:08   They are made by a brand called Arctic,

00:11:10   which I've never heard of before.

00:11:12   I've never bought any of their other products.

00:11:14   And either one of two things is true.

00:11:17   Either the latency on these just happens to be wonderful

00:11:21   in short, or I'm just not picky enough to notice.

00:11:25   And if it's the latter, then let this be a lesson, kids,

00:11:29   that being fussy about headphones and coffee

00:11:31   and about everything else under the sun

00:11:33   maybe isn't the best thing in the world.

00:11:35   Anyway, carry on, Marco.

00:11:36   (laughing)

00:11:37   - Anyway, and by the way, as I said last week,

00:11:40   I use Bluetooth headphones when I'm walking.

00:11:42   I listen to podcasts on them.

00:11:44   They're fantastic, and in that context,

00:11:46   way better than wired headphones. I love them. I use the Sennheiser PX… I think it's

00:11:53   the 120BT. I'll link to it in the show notes. It's like $100 and they're great. They

00:11:58   sound like complete garbage for music. And by the way, a lot of people are saying Bluetooth

00:12:03   audio because it uses lossy compression codecs, there's a lot of arguments that Bluetooth

00:12:08   headphones sound bad because they're Bluetooth. In the ones I've tested, most of them offer

00:12:14   the ability to plug in a cable. So I've tested them in both modes, cable mode direct and

00:12:19   Bluetooth mode, and they sound equally bad in both modes. So the reason they sound bad

00:12:23   is not because they're Bluetooth necessarily, it's because they're bad headphones. And it

00:12:27   is possible to make decent sounding Bluetooth headphones. Now, a lot of people say, "Oh,

00:12:32   these new headphones support aptX, this new codec, the aptX, I don't know if that's pronounced

00:12:38   aptX, that's how I say it." The problem is that iPhones don't support aptX. So I see

00:12:43   these like Amazon reviews of these headphones that say these new headphones support aptX

00:12:47   and it plays it sounds great for my iPhone is way better than the previous headphones.

00:12:51   Well they might sound better but it's not because of the aptX codec because if you're

00:12:54   using them on an iPhone aptX is not being used.

00:12:58   All that being said we got a very good email from Josh Day Lioncourt @lioncourt on Twitter

00:13:06   and Josh says one of the use case that wasn't mentioned in your discussion but perhaps should

00:13:09   have been is that of voiceover users.

00:13:11   I'm a writer and developer.

00:13:13   I spend virtually all day on my Macbook, iPad, and iPhone

00:13:15   plugged into headphones.

00:13:17   Bluetooth not only comes with the battery life issue

00:13:19   which is compounded by constant use by voiceover users,

00:13:22   but also in my experience, latency.

00:13:24   It's tough enough that a voiceover user

00:13:26   must listen to everything.

00:13:27   Even the slightest amount of latency in audio

00:13:29   can lead to frustration and disruption of productivity.

00:13:31   I'd imagine this is very analogous

00:13:33   to when touch UI suffers from lag.

00:13:35   So yeah, that I could definitely see

00:13:36   what that would be a problem.

00:13:38   - All right, so we should at least briefly touch

00:13:41   on the Apple watch edition pricing.

00:13:44   Um, there's been a lot of chatter that.

00:13:46   Tim Cook was perhaps embarrassed about the price of the watch.

00:13:51   It didn't show up on any slides and, uh, he kind of just said, Oh yeah.

00:13:55   And it's a $10,000.

00:13:56   So anyway,

00:13:57   now there will be limited quantities of the Apple watch edition.

00:14:01   It is priced from $10,000 and it will be available in select retail stores.

00:14:10   The Apple Watch Edition is the most beautiful expression of the Apple Watch.

00:14:17   So there's an article in the show notes that I did not read, and I'm assuming, John, you put it here?

00:14:23   I did. I don't remember what's in this article. I didn't open it in one of my tabs, I'm sorry,

00:14:28   but maybe you did and you lost it. I paid, no, I opened up the tabs right before the

00:14:33   show and closed them all after the show, as you well know.

00:14:38   Okay, I remember hearing about this before I saw the presentation because I didn't watch it live, right?

00:14:44   And so I knew to pay attention

00:14:46   during sort of that section of the thing to see if these articles that I had heard about were on the nose and

00:14:51   There's two things I noted about Tim Cook and the Apple watch edition the pricing thing and the presentation one

00:14:58   He made a comment earlier in the presentation

00:15:01   I believe when they're doing the health section about his heart rate

00:15:04   You know sort of doing the jokey kind of thing that I guess I'm not gonna say non-professional but like

00:15:11   Less experienced public speakers or maybe yeah

00:15:15   I think so like a less experienced public speakers will add something to their presentation that

00:15:19   acknowledges the fact that they're nervous to sort of you know cut the tension to

00:15:22   Get the audience on their side and to relax them and to just sort of go forward together

00:15:26   So we don't have to so it's not awkward, right?

00:15:28   Tim Cook did that in this presentation when he was showing the heart rate thing. It's like you can even check

00:15:34   Your heart rate and this is clearly not mine at this point in time

00:15:38   This is not Tim Cook's first presentation

00:15:43   We assume that there's some baseline level of nervousness that everyone feels when they're doing a big important presentation

00:15:47   We assume they're all nervous about things

00:15:49   but if he was gonna be nervous about something you would think he would be nervous about the revealing of the Apple watch and

00:15:55   Not this presentation. So what I was thinking about is alright, what is it about this presentation?

00:16:02   which really is just going over stuff we already knew and adding detail to the

00:16:05   Apple Watch. What is he nervous about in this one? And that ties into when he got

00:16:09   to the Apple Watch Edition and he has to say the Apple Watch Edition starts at

00:16:13   $10,000 simply available and select blah blah blah blah blah and he just like

00:16:17   ate those words like he didn't look down at his shoes and mumble them but he

00:16:21   might as well have like he was not he did not muster up a bunch of fake

00:16:26   enthusiasm saying the Apple audition is really great it's available starting at

00:16:29   $10,000 and it was low key.

00:16:34   There was no slide, there wasn't a lot of time given to it,

00:16:36   he didn't have a lot of enthusiasm for the announcement.

00:16:39   Is that what he was talking about with his heart right now?

00:16:42   I'm sure he's nervous when he does all his presentations,

00:16:44   maybe it's not a natural thing for him,

00:16:46   maybe they're not connected,

00:16:47   but whether they're connected or not,

00:16:49   the way the pricing of the Apple Watch Edition

00:16:51   was dealt with in that presentation,

00:16:54   at the very least shows that Apple thinks

00:16:56   that the audience it was communicating to in that keynote

00:17:01   is not really the same audience

00:17:03   that's going to buy this watch.

00:17:04   The information has to get out there.

00:17:06   It has to be in the press and so on and so forth.

00:17:07   But it's a different set of people.

00:17:11   It's not the tech press that was invited to this thing.

00:17:13   Although I'm sure they invited all the fashion people

00:17:15   and everything as well.

00:17:16   It's just not, I put it in the things,

00:17:18   was Tim Cook embarrassed about the 10K watch?

00:17:20   I don't know if he was embarrassed,

00:17:23   But he definitely didn't seem as excited about

00:17:27   the Apple Watch Edition at its price

00:17:29   as he was about other things.

00:17:30   And I guess what you could do is make a little clip

00:17:32   and say, let's show him saying

00:17:34   the Apple Watch starts at $349.

00:17:37   Does he say that with more or less enthusiasm?

00:17:39   Maybe he always says pricing in a boring way

00:17:40   and that's all he had to say about the edition.

00:17:42   I don't know.

00:17:43   But to me, it seemed like this product

00:17:48   does not sit comfortably in the same

00:17:51   sort of keynote presentation style

00:17:53   that we're accustomed to from Apple.

00:17:55   And that it, as in so many other things,

00:17:57   that it needs some other venue.

00:17:59   And the same way that it's gonna need

00:18:01   some other venue for sales, like select stores,

00:18:04   a special room they go to,

00:18:05   a different kind of treatment

00:18:06   from the people selling you the watch,

00:18:09   like the different box that it comes in.

00:18:11   Like everything about it is different

00:18:14   from other Apple products.

00:18:16   And I don't know, that's, did you guys notice that

00:18:19   when you were watching this presentation?

00:18:20   'cause it really stood out to me.

00:18:21   Maybe I was primed to look for it, I guess, but.

00:18:24   - I noticed it, but I wouldn't say it was loud,

00:18:28   so to speak, and it's a poor choice of words

00:18:30   in this context, but it wasn't the sort of thing

00:18:33   that knocked me off my chair.

00:18:34   But I did notice he seemed to kind of brush by it quickly.

00:18:38   I don't know, Marco, what did you think?

00:18:39   - Yeah, basically just that, that it very clearly,

00:18:42   it very clearly that he rushed through it.

00:18:46   It was not, I don't think it was necessarily nervousness.

00:18:50   I don't think it was necessarily him not being excited about it.

00:18:53   That's just his style of speaking.

00:18:55   I think he really just rushed through it and that part was intentional, that they did not

00:19:00   want to really spend a lot of time on that.

00:19:05   You could tell, there was a good discussion about this on the talk show last week with

00:19:08   Goober and Matthew Panzareno.

00:19:11   They kind of think that maybe there's some debate inside the company about whether this

00:19:16   should even exist.

00:19:19   it's uncharted territory for the company. I think in order to try to minimize how much

00:19:26   this would alienate their existing customer base or most of their customer base that is

00:19:30   not buying this thing and that can't or at least won't buy it, I think in order to

00:19:38   just minimize the alienation there and minimize the appearance of being this new snobby company,

00:19:43   I think that's why they didn't give a lot of time. So I don't think it necessarily

00:19:46   reflects what Tim thinks about it or whether Tim was nervous about it.

00:19:49   I think it's really just about just making sure that it wasn't distracting from the

00:19:55   other parts of the presentation, like the other prices being pretty reasonable.

00:20:00   That's what he could possibly, in theory, be nervous about, like the idea that the entire

00:20:03   conversation about this product that he's clearly very excited about could get derailed

00:20:07   talking about this one low-volume version of this product.

00:20:10   And that ties into the other sort of vague rumor story narrative, the idea that Johnny

00:20:16   I really likes expensive watches, Mark Neusen really likes expensive watches, and as sort

00:20:22   of a perk to the two of them, or a perk to Johnny essentially, saying "stay with Apple,

00:20:29   make this watch for us, we'll let you make a ridiculously expensive one because we know

00:20:32   you really like that."

00:20:34   And it may seem silly that personal considerations like that, if they're even true, like again

00:20:38   we don't know this is all just rumors right but I'm imagining for a second

00:20:42   that this was the case that Johnny I've really liked expensive watches the idea

00:20:46   that the world's biggest company would do something like have a special low

00:20:51   volume version of its product to satisfy the person designing the product seems

00:20:56   crazy and weird just because it seems like are the whims of this one person

00:21:01   dictating entire product line by Apple but it's not weird like when Steve Jobs

00:21:06   was alive, the whims of an even more mercurial, as they used to say back in the 80s person,

00:21:11   was dictating the whims of the world's biggest company. So that's the way people work, that's

00:21:17   the way people deal with each other. I don't think it's out of the question that, you know,

00:21:22   I haven't listened to that episode of the talk show yet, but like, that there could be an internal

00:21:26   debate about what kind of company does Apple want to be, how is this product different from a $10,000

00:21:32   Mac Pro, well it's different these ways and that way, you know, like we talked about all

00:21:36   these things before, right?

00:21:37   I can imagine that same conversation going on inside the company and I can also imagine

00:21:42   ending up in the current situation where they make a $10,000 gold watch because one faction

00:21:48   of the company really likes $10,000 gold watches.

00:21:51   Yeah, I don't know.

00:21:52   I mean, Johnny is worth keeping around, so if anyone could pull it off, it'd be him,

00:21:58   but it's weird.

00:21:59   I mean, I don't think it's like just to satisfy him but like, you know, this it's a if there is a multiple factions and inside the company

00:22:06   among the decision-makers

00:22:09   It's reasonable to think that

00:22:11   That you know the side that one could include a very important person like Johnny I've was into that

00:22:17   Maybe that's what it took to get Mark Newsom to come to the company and Johnny really wanted Mark to come like anyway

00:22:21   You can make up all sorts of stories about this

00:22:22   But like it is I think it's notable in that I can't remember the last time

00:22:28   unless unless a product is something like a

00:22:30   compromise or

00:22:33   Sort of a boring product or not interesting thing

00:22:36   Then they gloss over it or maybe it doesn't even make it to the keynote like the new Mac Pro

00:22:41   That wasn't really new and stuff like that. Yeah that expect right and everything's not but this is like

00:22:44   the top of the top of the line fanciest

00:22:48   Version of the product that Apple is just super excited about right and so it's weird for this one to be like

00:22:54   Oh, and by the way, this is the watch edition is for rich people. It's $10,000. Never mind, right?

00:22:58   - Right, that was weird.

00:22:59   - I mean, I think it just shows how much the edition

00:23:04   really is, I think, an experiment from Apple.

00:23:07   You know, I don't think when they initially

00:23:09   conceive the watch that they're like,

00:23:11   all right, we're gonna have three versions,

00:23:12   you know, cheap, normal, and gold.

00:23:15   Like, I don't think it went like that.

00:23:16   - Well, I think, I mean, as Monk Benton the chapter

00:23:19   was pointing out, like, when we were talking

00:23:20   about the watch, if they decide to make a watch,

00:23:22   they have to have the conversation about

00:23:24   how is this different than everything else we made?

00:23:26   How do our products change once we ask people to wear them?

00:23:29   And no, putting an iPod shuffler on your neck doesn't count, right?

00:23:32   How does it change?

00:23:34   We have to address it differently.

00:23:35   And if you're going to make a watch and we're not going to sell $10 plastic watches, we're

00:23:40   going to sell mid-range watches, and like I said, watches go up to this high end, why

00:23:46   would we not make a watch like that?

00:23:49   And then it gets into like, "Well, it's the same as the other watch, you're just making

00:23:51   out of fancy materials."

00:23:52   Like, yes, that's something people do with watches.

00:23:55   because people want gold there. Why do they want gold things? Why is the gold?

00:23:57   Why do we get to do a 500% markup? It's like it's just it's just the way it

00:24:01   works. Yeah and that's the thing like you know as it like I wrote in my blog post

00:24:05   right before the event thinking that it would be cheaper but oh well I wrote in

00:24:09   that that you know the point of of Apple watch is to get people to wear it first

00:24:14   and then do all this other stuff like it's if you can't get people to wear it

00:24:18   then all the other work you do is pointless and there are certain people

00:24:22   who the only kind of watch they're gonna be seen wearing

00:24:24   is something that's expensive and made of gold, you know?

00:24:27   And that's for various reasons that are, you know,

00:24:29   we can disagree with them or not think the same way,

00:24:31   but people have those reasons.

00:24:33   So if they want people like celebrities

00:24:37   and really rich people who like fancy jewelry,

00:24:39   like if they want them to wear an Apple Watch at all,

00:24:42   they have to make a gold one, you know?

00:24:44   Like there's, and certainly there's some of it, you know,

00:24:46   being this, you know, this very profitable fashion world

00:24:50   kind of thing and being prestigious,

00:24:52   but I think most of it is just the goal of,

00:24:57   we need to make something that nobody can look at and say,

00:25:01   well, that's too dorky to wear.

00:25:02   That's not good enough for me to wear.

00:25:04   - And if Apple's gonna do this, which they clearly are,

00:25:08   I think they made the right call.

00:25:09   I think this is not a boondoggle for Johnny Ive.

00:25:11   I think more or less he was right,

00:25:12   but I think the company has to now become comfortable

00:25:15   with the idea that this is the type of thing they sell.

00:25:18   you wouldn't see Rolex mumbling over the pricing

00:25:21   of a fancy watch, right?

00:25:21   - No, they just don't tell you.

00:25:23   - Yeah, well, the horse power is adequate, right?

00:25:26   Either way, however you handle it,

00:25:28   either you don't mention the price,

00:25:30   if you have to ask, you can't afford it,

00:25:31   like whatever, Apple needs to figure out

00:25:33   how do you present products like this,

00:25:36   because they are making a product like this,

00:25:37   and it's probably a good call for them

00:25:39   to make a product like this,

00:25:40   they just have to figure out as a company

00:25:41   how do you present it,

00:25:42   because I think you have to present it differently

00:25:44   than the new MacBook,

00:25:45   or a traditional technology product.

00:25:49   - And speaking of the addition,

00:25:50   there was an omission during the keynote,

00:25:53   not an awkward flyby, but a straight up omission.

00:25:57   And that was the video about gold.

00:26:00   We saw a video about aluminum.

00:26:02   We saw a video about steel,

00:26:04   but we didn't see a video about gold.

00:26:07   But apparently such a video exists.

00:26:09   They just didn't play it during the keynote.

00:26:10   So that strikes me as slightly odd,

00:26:13   Although since most of the audience of that presentation is,

00:26:18   both in person and in general,

00:26:20   is probably not going to be buying an edition,

00:26:23   it's not terribly remarkable to me

00:26:25   that they didn't show that video during the presentation,

00:26:27   but I don't know.

00:26:29   - Can you imagine if they did,

00:26:30   so if they did show that video,

00:26:32   it could've just been cut for time or whatever,

00:26:33   but imagine they did show it.

00:26:34   I can imagine, given the population of that room,

00:26:36   despite the fact that I'm sure Apple invited people

00:26:38   from Vogue and all these other fashion magazines

00:26:40   that I don't know the names of,

00:26:41   I'm sure they were in the audience too,

00:26:42   But we know that a lot of the audience are technology,

00:26:46   you know, media, right?

00:26:48   I can imagine a little bit of weird, uncomfortable

00:26:51   tittering from the audience when this gold thing is playing.

00:26:54   'Cause for the same reason that the nerd tech press

00:26:56   is kind of like totally willing to see like

00:26:58   CNC milling machines grinding weight aluminum

00:27:01   and ooh and aah-ing over asymmetrical fan blades

00:27:03   and stuff like that, that's what the tech press likes.

00:27:07   Once you start showing gold, I think they feel like

00:27:09   they're going out of their comfort zone.

00:27:11   and you know, with Johnny Ive talking in flowery terms

00:27:14   about the gold they have and how it's a beautiful metal

00:27:17   and blah, blah, blah.

00:27:18   Like it feels uncomfortable because you're like,

00:27:21   this is not engineering, this is not technology,

00:27:23   this is merely a fashion, right?

00:27:25   And it just, I don't think it,

00:27:28   I think it would have been fine probably,

00:27:29   but I can imagine if I was there in person,

00:27:31   you wouldn't have heard it on the slides,

00:27:32   but if you were there in person,

00:27:33   a couple of weird tisk tisks,

00:27:36   or at the very least the media deciding

00:27:39   that that's the time they're gonna check their Twitter,

00:27:40   right, when the gold video comes up?

00:27:43   - No, I just think, I think it's very simple.

00:27:45   I think it's that they, you know,

00:27:46   they wanted to not spend a lot of time on the gold pricing,

00:27:50   and so they just blew right by the whole gold section

00:27:53   of the presentation.

00:27:54   I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

00:27:55   It was, it wasn't worth the time.

00:27:57   They didn't want people to be focused on that.

00:27:59   They wanted people to be focused on the other stuff.

00:28:01   - I know, but I think that's a problem for the company,

00:28:03   like that they have to figure out,

00:28:05   they have to get comfortable themselves and decide,

00:28:08   I mean, we just have one data point now, so you don't know,

00:28:10   but they have to figure out how do we deal with this?

00:28:13   How do we deal with the vast gulf

00:28:15   between these product lines?

00:28:18   'Cause they make future products like this,

00:28:19   like the Apple, you know, Monocle, the Apple Ring,

00:28:22   like whatever the heck they're gonna do

00:28:23   with wearable tech in the future,

00:28:24   they have to figure it out.

00:28:26   They have to just sort of come up with a policy

00:28:28   and then until it comes routine,

00:28:30   and we sort of expect that they either are,

00:28:33   aren't going to talk about the super expensive one,

00:28:35   or when they do it, they're gonna do it in this way,

00:28:37   or they are, aren't gonna mention the price

00:28:39   and all that business.

00:28:40   - Well, the good thing is our first sponsor this week

00:28:43   is a much better deal than an Apple Watch edition.

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00:30:25   You know, it's a piece of glass printed edge to edge

00:30:27   and the glass is nice and thin

00:30:29   and there's like a little thin bit of foam board behind it

00:30:32   so you can put a picture hanger into it.

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00:31:15   - So we have approximately six hours of MacBook follow-up.

00:31:20   - Oh my God.

00:31:21   - I don't think it's that bad.

00:31:23   We talked about most of these things,

00:31:24   just filling in little gaps.

00:31:25   'Cause we spent a long time last show

00:31:28   talking about the new MacBook's limitations

00:31:30   and pros and cons and blah, blah, blah.

00:31:32   And here are the things that we didn't get to or that have had new bits of information

00:31:36   about.

00:31:37   The first one is about the flash in the new MacBook.

00:31:40   Apparently it's really, really fast, which is nice.

00:31:43   I linked to the bare feet benchmarking showing that if you get the new MacBook, the flash

00:31:50   storage is actually faster than the big black tube Mac Pro's flash storage, which is a hell

00:31:56   of a bargain when you consider the price of the big Mac Pro.

00:31:59   Yeah, I believe, I think they made PCI Express faster on this chipset.

00:32:04   I think that's one of the sources of this gain.

00:32:07   Yeah, and maybe different flash chips or whatever.

00:32:10   Technology marches on, flash is a relatively young technology, but we're in a weird situation

00:32:14   now where actually if you get this pretty much bottom of the line, close to bottom of

00:32:20   the line Apple notebook, you will get really fast flash storage, which is nice and hopefully

00:32:24   bodes well for future big tube Mac Pros and other products.

00:32:28   Yeah, I would expect as everything gets the updated chipsets, you know over the over the coming year

00:32:33   I would expect them to all have the same the same things basically no word yet on trim support or whether we need that anymore

00:32:39   Whether it's handled by the firmware or some cooperation with the OS like people are always asking about that

00:32:43   But I got the what is it Samsung 850 Pro SSD. I have not done the crazy hack to enable trim support

00:32:50   I'm just gonna say like, you know, you just handle it

00:32:52   I know there's nothing

00:32:54   magical that the firmware and the thing can do to make up for the fact that the OS is not telling the hardware which blocks

00:32:59   are unused but I

00:33:01   Don't know. I mean I'm trying to keep a reasonable amount of space free on it

00:33:04   I haven't probably filled all the space with real or deleted files yet if the performance drops off a cliff on my SSD

00:33:11   I'll be sure to let you guys know but so far

00:33:13   I'm doing okay, and I just hope I I don't I don't want to have to think about that

00:33:17   And I also don't want to be in any unsupported configurations

00:33:19   but I know a lot of people do do the hacks to enable trim support and they seem okay with it too, so

00:33:24   You know do whatever you got to do, but so far so good, and I'm just happy to see storage getting faster

00:33:30   Because you know although SSD once you go all SSD, then you're just like okay, how much faster can flash go?

00:33:36   Why is it so slow?

00:33:38   Maybe it's just me. Yeah, just you all right. You know if you got a more modern computer

00:33:43   You'd have faster buses and everything and I know I was thinking about that the other day

00:33:48   it's like boy seven years we're seven year old I'm using a seven year old computer can I make it to using a

00:33:53   Ten year old computer like I mean at this point you might as well try if you're this close

00:33:58   Now I'm gonna buy the first one that comes that you know fulfills my requirements. It never will. Yeah good

00:34:05   Don't hold your breath. So you'll definitely reach ten years as long as this still works

00:34:09   I was the current Mac Pro. I would have gotten it if it was like half the price

00:34:14   Here's a question if something critical died on your current one today. What would you buy to replace it?

00:34:19   I would probably be forced to get the iMac that you have that must be excruciating for you

00:34:24   It would I would not like it because it would be like I know this is just a

00:34:29   Stepping stone machine and you know the graphics the whole graphics performance and the overheating and whatever like I love the screen and everything

00:34:38   But I'd be just like a waystation on my way to

00:34:41   Getting something better later. I don't know. I'm hanging there. It's hanging in there by the way, whatever it's worth a graphics performance

00:34:48   I don't I don't know how it compares by gaming standards, but I have not had any heating problems

00:34:52   Yeah, you're not playing games on this is all just about game benchmarks. That's fair

00:34:56   But I mean like when Tuf was playing I mean, I think we were only playing portal 2

00:34:59   So it wasn't really stressing it that much but it was like a seven year old game

00:35:03   I think yeah

00:35:04   But when when playing portal 2 it the fan did spin up to what I would what I would consider medium speed

00:35:10   And it sustained at that level and it was never really a problem. It was never obnoxiously loud

00:35:15   It was audible, but it was not obnoxiously loud nor did it ever overheat or seem to like throttle itself in any noticeable way

00:35:21   Yeah, I don't know if you've noticed it in a game like that because that that GP you would just eat portal to for lunch

00:35:26   like you're just it's I don't think it's a problem, but I

00:35:30   Want I want that little tube. I want it to be quiet like the little tube

00:35:35   I want it to be powerful like the tube

00:35:37   I just wanted to not cost a whole jillion dollars and I could give up one of the GPUs probably

00:35:41   And that's the problem that I don't think they will ever ship that machine. I know I know well anyway

00:35:46   I'm I'm just waiting patiently to see

00:35:48   To see what I can see I mean who knows like maybe the next 5k. I'm like

00:35:52   They resolve some of the they put a different GPU in there or pick a different vendor like they're always changing something

00:35:58   So I'm you know I'm in the meantime my SSD is really extended the life of this computer

00:36:04   Feels much snappier than it used to so I'm okay for now as long as nothing breaks

00:36:09   What's the next one the next one is about we've talked about the

00:36:15   Keyboard having a symmetrical rectangular outline because Johnny I've doesn't want to bump out the keys

00:36:23   Bump out the the outline for the arrow keys to have an inverted T with full-size keys in there

00:36:27   We have follow-up on this. Yeah

00:36:29   Well, you know

00:36:30   I talked about it on the show and I said,

00:36:32   "But look at the keyboard, you notice something on there

00:36:34   that is a step in the right direction

00:36:37   for Johnny Ive accepting asymmetry."

00:36:39   And I acknowledge that there's always

00:36:40   asymmetrical stuff on keyboards,

00:36:42   but in this model in particular,

00:36:44   because the trackpad is jammed right up against the space bar

00:36:47   and because the left edge of the space bar

00:36:48   is aligned with the left edge of the trackpad,

00:36:51   it really emphasized the fact that the track,

00:36:52   that the space bar is not centered on this keyboard.

00:36:56   And then I had to deal with, you know,

00:36:57   a week and a half of people telling me

00:36:58   the space bar is never centered on the keyboards.

00:37:01   Yes, I know it's never centered,

00:37:03   but because there's always like a buffer,

00:37:05   there had been historically a buffer

00:37:07   between the track pad and the space bar.

00:37:09   It wasn't just in your face so much,

00:37:11   but on this particular model,

00:37:12   because they're just touched right up against each other

00:37:15   and because the left edges are aligned,

00:37:17   it really emphasizes the fact

00:37:18   that the right edge is not aligned.

00:37:20   And someone tweeted at me, who is this?

00:37:22   Shane Bonham tweeted,

00:37:25   "How hard do you think it was to talk Johnny Ive out of this

00:37:27   and he shows a picture that he mocked up of a new MacBook with a perfectly aligned spacebar

00:37:34   that is exactly the width of the trackpad. And how did he do this? By making half-size

00:37:39   left and right arrow keys. So you got half-size up and down arrow keys and then flanking it half-size

00:37:46   left and right arrow keys. And it does surprisingly fit and it's hideous and I would hate it. And I

00:37:52   hope Jonny I've never seized that because it's going to give him ideas. Why do you think this is

00:37:56   - This is so bad, I think it looks good.

00:37:58   - I hate trying to, I use the inverted T arrow keys

00:38:03   with three fingers, middle finger is up down,

00:38:05   pointer finger is left, ring finger is right.

00:38:08   - Sure.

00:38:09   - I want full-size keys for those things to go on.

00:38:12   I hate having up and down be the half-size keys

00:38:14   'cause I find myself accidentally hitting one or the other

00:38:18   or like trying to grope around to find the right key.

00:38:21   Making the left and right also half-size

00:38:23   is just squishing my three fingers together

00:38:25   until all three of them feel like they're trying

00:38:27   to press the same key cap on different,

00:38:29   press the lower left corner of the key cap,

00:38:31   press the right, no, full-size keys.

00:38:34   And again, on a tiny laptop like this,

00:38:36   I kind of understand, whatever.

00:38:37   I'm just talking about like the 15 inch,

00:38:39   back when they had the 17 inch,

00:38:40   the fact that they had a little tiny keyboard in there

00:38:42   was ridiculous.

00:38:43   Anyway, I would not like these arrow keys.

00:38:45   I don't like laptop keyboards at all.

00:38:47   But boy, if he sees this, man,

00:38:50   look how beautiful it is with the space bar,

00:38:52   exactly the same width as the track pad.

00:38:53   - You don't even buy laptops.

00:38:55   I know, I don't think Johnny Ive used laptops.

00:38:58   I think he just likes how the keyboards look.

00:39:00   It's a perfectly rectangular outline for the laptop.

00:39:03   - I think going back for a second,

00:39:04   I think if anything expresses the weirdness of Johnny Ive,

00:39:07   I think it's the addition watch with the white sport band.

00:39:11   - Yeah, I mean, it doesn't,

00:39:13   it's how he dresses looks a lot like that watch.

00:39:16   Like when he dresses up,

00:39:18   I don't know anything about fashion again,

00:39:21   but sort of light colored pants

00:39:22   and just think of like a Bentley

00:39:25   with the white leather interior.

00:39:26   I don't know if that's the kind of Bentley he has.

00:39:28   Anyway, no accounting for taste as they say.

00:39:31   - Tell us about Marcus Brownlee and his prediction.

00:39:35   - Yeah, a lot of people pointed this out.

00:39:37   We've talked about MKBHD before, that's his Twitter handle.

00:39:42   Marcus Brownlee, apparently a very popular YouTube person

00:39:44   that we don't know about

00:39:45   because we are all old, including you.

00:39:47   - That makes me feel so bad.

00:39:49   The one time when he had the supposedly Sapphire cover glass, and we were like, "This guy on

00:39:54   YouTube," and none of us knew who he was.

00:39:57   Meanwhile, he's like frickin' massive in YouTube.

00:40:01   He was invited to the Apple event.

00:40:02   He was like, he has an audience bigger than pretty much everybody we know in this space

00:40:08   combined.

00:40:09   Like, he is like the biggest guy in tech, and none of us know who he is.

00:40:14   That's only because your kids aren't old enough.

00:40:15   Once your kids get old enough, you will very quickly come to accept that you don't know

00:40:19   anybody and all, you know, you're there, you just don't know it yet.

00:40:23   Once your kids start telling you that you don't know who anybody is or start talking

00:40:26   about famous people and you don't recognize any of the names, that's when it really comes

00:40:29   home.

00:40:30   So you'll get, you'll both get there.

00:40:31   - Yeah, but like usually like, you know, it's okay for me to not know somebody who is a

00:40:35   really big deal like in music or TV or something.

00:40:38   To not know somebody who's a really big deal in my own industry.

00:40:42   - That's right.

00:40:43   I mean, for me, it was, you know, stuff about gaming, right?

00:40:45   I subscribe to game magazines, I read gaming news sites and stuff like that, but I do not

00:40:49   watch a lot of gaming YouTube channels and they are humongous and I don't know who any

00:40:54   of those people are.

00:40:56   And I'm fine with it by the way, because I just am.

00:41:00   But yeah, no, I mean, I've watched some of his videos, he does a great job.

00:41:04   I would have eaten that up if I was a kid and this YouTube existed and these channels

00:41:08   exist, I would have been over the moon because I was trying to illegally get copies of Mac

00:41:12   Week, that's what I was doing.

00:41:13   These guys got HD video of a guy stabbing a potential iPhone thing with a knife.

00:41:19   It's awesome.

00:41:20   Anyway, he is getting bold.

00:41:23   You know, these youths, they're brash predictions.

00:41:26   We're going to put a link to this in the show notes.

00:41:29   They have three minutes and 14 seconds in this video.

00:41:31   Here is a quote from Marques Brownlee.

00:41:33   I can pretty much guarantee the second generation of this thin and light new MacBook will have

00:41:38   more than one USB port.

00:41:40   Quote me.

00:41:41   Well, I quoted him.

00:41:42   That's exactly what he said.

00:41:43   He says, "Pretty much guarantee the pretty much hedges a little bit."

00:41:48   But then he says, "Quote me."

00:41:49   "Alright, we're quoting you.

00:41:50   You can pretty much guarantee that the next one's gonna have two."

00:41:54   I hope it does.

00:41:55   As has been stated at length, I really hope it does.

00:41:58   But this is interesting to see a popular person.

00:42:02   I think he thinks there's gonna be another one, assuming he has no inside info, which

00:42:04   I have no way of knowing.

00:42:05   But if he doesn't have any inside info, he's just saying, at least, you know, he's saying

00:42:09   what we're all thinking.

00:42:10   It's like, "Well, duh.

00:42:11   one will obviously have a second port, like it's crazy to have one port, right guys?

00:42:17   Right?

00:42:18   Like come on, you know?

00:42:19   That could be what he's thinking.

00:42:21   That could show either wisdom of knowing his history about the original MacBook Air that

00:42:27   had one and eventually came out with two, or not knowing exactly how stubborn Apple

00:42:33   can be.

00:42:34   I think we'll get to Apple's stubbornness a little bit later in a somewhat related topic.

00:42:38   But I just wanted to put that out there so that we can all hold him to his prediction.

00:42:43   Yes, all of us who are approximately 25 times less than his own audience.

00:42:48   Oh, even much less.

00:42:49   We're all old people and he won't even know that we're talking about him and that's fine.

00:42:53   But amongst ourselves, in our knitting circle, in our book club, in our little technology

00:42:56   nerd thing, we will talk amongst ourselves about these youngsters.

00:43:01   I mean, I think, I know we're going to talk endlessly about the support, but I would bet

00:43:06   he's wrong about this.

00:43:08   I would bet that this doesn't pan out that way that,

00:43:10   oh no, you're making, you're doing,

00:43:12   you shouldn't have said that.

00:43:13   - Why?

00:43:14   - Because you're always wrong about everything.

00:43:15   You just went through back when you said

00:43:17   I thought the Apple Watch traditional was gonna be cheap.

00:43:18   That's your thing.

00:43:19   Every time you do predictions on your blog,

00:43:21   you're like, keep in mind that my track record

00:43:23   of predicting Apple things is terrible.

00:43:24   And that's the one thing you're right about.

00:43:25   Your track record is not good.

00:43:27   And so now that you've said that, now I'm doubting.

00:43:29   Now I'm like, oh, damn it.

00:43:31   I agree with you.

00:43:31   And now I think I must be wrong

00:43:33   'cause I agree with Marco about a prediction on Apple.

00:43:36   - All right, before we take this any further,

00:43:37   Let's go ahead and thank another sponsor and then we can go in the one versus many port black hole

00:43:43   Oh my god, this is gonna be all follow-up, isn't it? Told you there's we we got to put a time cap on follow-up

00:43:49   We'll get to Nintendo even if we have to do it in the after show. It'll be fine

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00:45:54   - All right, so let's go into the black hole, Jon.

00:45:57   - Yeah.

00:45:58   - Why don't you tell us about the ports again?

00:46:00   - So this is from Dave W.

00:46:02   he's getting down to the sort of philosophical reasoning

00:46:07   for why there's, you know,

00:46:10   what do I get with one point instead of two?

00:46:13   Why is there one point instead of two, so on and so forth.

00:46:15   Thus far, I've still not seen any credible practical support

00:46:20   for the idea that there is one instead of two.

00:46:26   Just lots of plausible theories.

00:46:27   When, you know, lots of people like,

00:46:29   "What if blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?"

00:46:31   Like, yeah, sure, I can play what if all day,

00:46:34   but if the what if isn't true, then we don't know.

00:46:39   So even though there's a bunch of potentially plausible

00:46:42   reasons, like we went over them before PCI Express

00:46:45   Lanes power concerns, blah, blah, blah,

00:46:46   you gotta quantify them.

00:46:47   You gotta know that they're actually true,

00:46:49   that you're just not saying this is theory,

00:46:50   this could be true, and then you have to quantify them,

00:46:52   because if you quantify them, then you can say,

00:46:54   oh, well, it would take more power,

00:46:56   but it would take .00001 more watts of power.

00:46:59   Then I don't care, then it's not a good reason, right?

00:47:01   but if it would take double the power, then I do care.

00:47:03   So you have to quantify.

00:47:04   Anyway, this reason gets more philosophical.

00:47:08   Dave W says, "I can think of two reasons.

00:47:10   "Neither are about making this MacBook better."

00:47:13   They're kind of both the same reason,

00:47:14   but I'll give them the two.

00:47:16   One, Apple can use customer reaction as a signal

00:47:18   on whether it's safe to reduce the number of ports

00:47:20   on the rest of their laptops.

00:47:21   So this is sort of like, let's try it with one

00:47:24   and see what the reaction is.

00:47:26   It's a trial balloon.

00:47:28   If it goes over like a lead balloon,

00:47:30   then Marcus Brownlee will be right,

00:47:33   and the next one will have two ports,

00:47:34   and you know, lesson learned, right?

00:47:36   And number two, related,

00:47:39   those who adjust first to having only one port

00:47:42   effectively carve a path that makes it easier

00:47:43   for the rest of us to follow.

00:47:45   There's a lot of things about the carving the path,

00:47:47   it's like you get used to it,

00:47:49   you get acclimated to it on a small thing,

00:47:51   that the industry of adapters and everything

00:47:53   can be built up around that,

00:47:54   so then it's safer to go to the other models,

00:47:56   the idea that it's a transition point

00:47:57   try to go to zero ports or go to one port everywhere.

00:48:02   All of this sort of accepts as a premise that one port is the way to go and then just explains

00:48:08   how Apple would be using this as a strategy to get to one port.

00:48:12   I don't think it answers the essential question from a consumer's perspective of like, "What

00:48:17   am I getting with one that I wouldn't be getting with two?"

00:48:20   So that is still an open question.

00:48:22   I will re-emphasize that does not mean I think there is not an answer.

00:48:25   I think there very well could be an answer, but the answer would have to be something

00:48:31   in the form of "here is a technical reason" or whatever, that this couldn't be done.

00:48:35   Not just "there could be a technical reason like this!"

00:48:38   Yeah, there could be, but we're not, you know what I mean?

00:48:42   It's not interesting to me to hear people speculate about how much power they think

00:48:46   it would have taken to add a second port if they have no idea how much power it would

00:48:49   have added to take a second port, if any.

00:48:52   So we may never know.

00:48:55   We'll have to wait till the next version of this thing comes out.

00:48:57   If it still has one port, it shows

00:48:59   that it didn't matter enough for Apple

00:49:02   to care that it only had one.

00:49:03   And related to that--

00:49:08   I've got to have a whole section about this down there.

00:49:10   I didn't realize how long this goes.

00:49:12   Sorry, guys.

00:49:14   Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:15   Related to the idea--

00:49:17   So I'll see you next week.

00:49:18   Yeah.

00:49:18   Related to the idea that the case design dictates this,

00:49:22   that they really wanted to have this case.

00:49:23   Casey came up with this, fittingly based on his name,

00:49:26   that they really wanted to have this case.

00:49:29   Have you ever had that particular pun

00:49:33   based on your name in your life?

00:49:34   - What, caseless?

00:49:35   - About a computer case?

00:49:38   - No, there's a first time for everything.

00:49:40   - Yeah, well, people who have names

00:49:41   and get teased about them, it's like,

00:49:42   oh, it's the first time I've heard that one.

00:49:44   Well, you've gone through 30-something years of life

00:49:47   and no one has ever compared your first name

00:49:49   to a computer case until now.

00:49:51   - Yep, that's true.

00:49:52   This is what I say every single time somebody says Marco Polo.

00:49:55   - Yeah, I see Marco has heard that one before.

00:49:57   I'll have to think of some novel way

00:49:58   to compare Marco's name to something, but not today.

00:50:02   - Damn.

00:50:03   - Yeah, so Casey's thing was they just wanted this case.

00:50:07   And then I started considering the notion,

00:50:10   is that the way that anyone would design anything,

00:50:12   that you just come up with the case and you just say,

00:50:14   okay, now you just, whatever you can fit inside that,

00:50:16   go for it?

00:50:17   We've got a lot of armchair speculation about that

00:50:20   from listeners and from us on the show saying,

00:50:24   I was saying that regardless of whether this is

00:50:25   how Apple designs things, it's a bad way to design things

00:50:28   'cause it doesn't make any sense to me.

00:50:29   And realistically speaking, it's an impossible way

00:50:32   to design things because why isn't the MacBook

00:50:36   as thin as a piece of paper?

00:50:37   Well, that's the case I wanna have.

00:50:39   There are practical considerations

00:50:41   that the people designing the case know.

00:50:42   They know it can't be as thin as a piece of paper

00:50:44   because they know at minimum there's some certain thickness

00:50:46   for the CPU.

00:50:47   You can't make the CPU the thickness

00:50:49   of a sheet of paper right now.

00:50:50   They know that, and they're not engineers,

00:50:53   but they know, everyone knows, like, okay,

00:50:54   there's going to be a CPU in this.

00:50:56   The CPU can't be a thickness of a piece of paper,

00:50:58   so I'm not gonna say this is the case.

00:51:01   The case is always defined by what's inside it,

00:51:03   because the people designing it know the limitations,

00:51:06   roughly, of the stuff that's inside it.

00:51:08   But you can say, yeah, within the bounds of that,

00:51:10   they just assign it the outside,

00:51:11   and then the inside comes after.

00:51:13   Well, I don't think we need to speculate

00:51:15   about what actually goes on inside Apple,

00:51:18   because Johnny Ive in a video interview with Vanity Fair

00:51:21   at six minutes and 38 seconds in is asked,

00:51:24   or is this a question I guess, the interviewer asks,

00:51:27   so when you started off you were designing

00:51:29   the outsides of machines almost exclusively,

00:51:31   and again I would encourage people to read

00:51:33   that Johnny Ive book that we will put a link to

00:51:36   in the show notes, that it goes over his history

00:51:39   in the company and how kind of he would,

00:51:41   back in the bad old days he would kind of get

00:51:43   a completed machine and he was asked to sort of

00:51:47   put a nice looking thing around the box, right?

00:51:50   And that's not the way he liked the work.

00:51:52   So Johnny's answer is, yes, that in the bad old days,

00:51:57   this was how it was going.

00:51:57   Yes, but I think if you're going to do a good job,

00:51:59   you can't just impose an outside on something.

00:52:01   You have to have a bigger idea,

00:52:03   and that always meant that you're involved

00:52:04   in designing the layout and the internal architecture

00:52:06   with the engineers.

00:52:07   It's one of the things I really love.

00:52:08   I really love doing a lot.

00:52:10   So there it is from the horse's mouth.

00:52:12   He is not just designing the outside.

00:52:14   He's designing the outside of the inside together,

00:52:15   because that's the better way to design things.

00:52:17   That's what he loves doing.

00:52:19   Period, end of story.

00:52:20   - All right.

00:52:23   - Are we done with the follow-up yet?

00:52:24   - Oh no, we have a humongous section on naysayer notions.

00:52:29   So.

00:52:30   - This just looks big.

00:52:31   You should go show them all these.

00:52:32   - Oh my God, this is.

00:52:33   - You should open up all these links in tabs.

00:52:35   I think we'll breeze through this

00:52:36   'cause it's really just a lot of.

00:52:37   - My screen's not big enough.

00:52:38   - A lot of links.

00:52:39   And just open a new window

00:52:41   and just put all the tabs lined up in it.

00:52:43   - I'm at my window limit.

00:52:44   Not so bad.

00:52:49   So these are all the various naysayers about the idea that we're going to call MacBook

00:52:58   fatalism or hardware design fatalism.

00:53:02   That the way things are is the only way they could ever have been because that is the way

00:53:06   they are.

00:53:07   Like it's a tautological, fatalistic notion that Apple has done something, therefore the

00:53:13   The only way Apple could have done something is the way Apple did something because that's

00:53:15   the way Apple did it.

00:53:16   Right?

00:53:17   That just goes around and around in circles, a snake eating its tail and people love it.

00:53:20   They just cannot resist the notion that it is absolutely positively impossible to make

00:53:25   this machine with two USB-C ports without some massive compromise that would destroy

00:53:29   the machine either spiritually, physically or both.

00:53:32   Right?

00:53:33   One idea was related to the taper that if you made it, and Mark even said this in the

00:53:39   If you made this machine either untapered or less tapered that there would not be distinguishable from the 13 inch MacBook Pro

00:53:45   And even though I directly addressed that on the past show

00:53:47   At least I gave my opinion on it people actually like they didn't hear me or at least acting like they disagree

00:53:52   I actually sent someone a mock-up of like the side view of the thing and saying I

00:53:56   Just drew a straight line where there was a taper and I call it

00:53:59   I colored in the triangle and it was like put computer here like this this black triangle that I have drawn

00:54:05   That's the place that does not currently have computer put computer there

00:54:08   And I think that machine if you put it next to a side view of the 13-inch MacBook Pro

00:54:13   It is still clearly distinguishable. Even if you would tirely eliminate the table. Oh, yeah

00:54:19   No, I mean, I don't think I wasn't saying it was it was gonna be exactly the same

00:54:22   But you know the difference would be a lot smaller

00:54:25   It would still be noticeably smaller because even smaller screen, right?

00:54:29   And you could just taper it less like what I was getting at is like even if you just tapered a little bit less

00:54:34   You'd like the battery savings are tremendous because there is so little battery in there that even just a couple of degrees of you

00:54:41   Know a fraction of a degree of untapering gives you potentially a large percentage more battery

00:54:46   Yeah, but then that would push it over the magical two pound mark too

00:54:49   Even if it was only a little bit even it was 2.1 pounds, you know

00:54:52   That's still nothing magical about two pounds 2.01 pounds 2.02 2.03 again. You have to quantify it

00:54:58   How much more does it weight could a person given these two things be able to tell the difference in weight?

00:55:03   Blindfolded between 2.01 to and 2 point, you know, like it's nice for marketing materials

00:55:07   It is exactly 2 on the nose who knows if it even is it's like a displacement in engines, you know

00:55:11   Well, I'll just you know, it's close enough, right? I don't even know if it is exactly 2 pounds on the nose

00:55:16   It's

00:55:18   Like again, you have to quantify because people are willing to say like if you make this thing one gram heavier

00:55:24   The whole machine is ruined. If you can make it one millimeter longer in any dimension. That's it

00:55:29   It's just it's Johnny Ive will cry because he wanted that particular case and now you've ruined it because it is perfect

00:55:35   and if you make and the best thing about it is like in the whole parallel mirror universe thing where you have a

00:55:39   million different universes where they make a million different decisions and you actually do introduce this machine with

00:55:44   variations of fractions of a pound and fractions of a millimeter everyone in those universes would be like

00:55:48   This is the only way it could have possibly been and if I saw a machine that was different in any dimension or in any

00:55:53   Weight measured by a tiny amount I would know that it is different when you wouldn't you would just accept whatever machine they put

00:55:58   out and you would say, "That's the machine." Anyway, I get frustrated.

00:56:06   So a lot of people, the people who are quote-unquote "on my side" kept coming in with these

00:56:11   examples of existing PC machines that supposedly demonstrate everything that I'm frustrated

00:56:17   about. There's a whole bunch of stories about this. There's one on The Verge about

00:56:21   the Asus Zenbooks, beautifully named,

00:56:24   capital U, capital X, three zero five,

00:56:27   great product name there, Asus.

00:56:29   - I believe it's pronounced asses.

00:56:31   - I believe it's not.

00:56:32   That is thinner than the new MacBook,

00:56:37   and of course has multiple ports, as everything else does.

00:56:39   This is what it says, it says an SD card reader,

00:56:42   headphone jack, three USB ports, not type C, full size,

00:56:47   three full size USB ports, micro HDMI,

00:56:50   and it's thinner than this new one.

00:56:51   And people are like, "Oh, see that shows

00:56:53   "Apple could have made it smaller."

00:56:54   But those people weren't paying attention to the specs

00:56:56   because this machine is an inch wider,

00:56:59   an inch deeper and a half a pound heavier.

00:57:01   And those are quantifiable.

00:57:02   An inch is not a couple of millimeters.

00:57:04   An inch wider, an inch deeper,

00:57:05   I don't know how to talk about these dimensions

00:57:07   when I say that people think it's like an inch thick,

00:57:08   I guess, you know what I mean, right?

00:57:10   It is thinner when you lay it down than the MacBook,

00:57:14   but it is much bigger in the other dimensions

00:57:15   and it's half a pound heavier.

00:57:16   And I think a half a pound, you could probably tell that.

00:57:20   It's not just like 2.0 versus 2.1 pounds, right?

00:57:22   It's also, by the way, half the price of the MacBook.

00:57:25   So all this is showing is that another machine

00:57:27   was made with different trade-offs.

00:57:29   If the new MacBook was the same dimensions

00:57:34   and weight as this in that mirror universe,

00:57:37   I think people would be fine with it.

00:57:39   But now that you can see them side by side,

00:57:41   clearly the Apple One is giving you a trade-off

00:57:44   that I think people would find more attractive

00:57:47   for double the price, I guess.

00:57:48   Then there's Lenovo Yoga Pro 3.

00:57:51   I guess it's better because it doesn't have a bunch

00:57:53   of alphanumerics in the name, but Yoga?

00:57:55   You name your computer Yoga?

00:57:56   I don't like that, I don't like that.

00:57:58   - This is the one that had the misleading ad, right?

00:58:00   - Yeah, so we should put a link to this show.

00:58:03   First of all, they are--

00:58:03   - That was really bad.

00:58:05   - They are touting the fact that they're thinner

00:58:07   and they put the side view of the computers

00:58:09   next to each other and just use different scales for them.

00:58:12   - Like wildly different scales.

00:58:13   - Yeah, they are a few millimeters thinner,

00:58:16   But again, because humans can't perceive a few millimeters,

00:58:18   like if you drew an accurate picture,

00:58:20   people would be like,

00:58:21   "Those look like the same thickness."

00:58:22   Because nobody can tell when it's a few millimeters off,

00:58:24   except for of course the people who think

00:58:25   that the entire MacBook would be ruined

00:58:26   if it was a few millimeters different in any dimension.

00:58:29   Anyway, yeah, they totally cheated on the ad.

00:58:32   But it is thinner, slightly.

00:58:33   It's bigger in the other two dimensions.

00:58:36   It has full size USB.

00:58:38   It's a half pound heavier, blah, blah, blah.

00:58:39   Noticing a trend here, right?

00:58:40   And so all this goes to say

00:58:43   that all the people finding the other machines

00:58:45   that seem to be better than the MacBook and all things,

00:58:49   they're just shifting around the internal components.

00:58:52   This doesn't say anything one way or the other

00:58:53   about whether Apple could have within the same case

00:58:56   or within a case that is imperceptibly different

00:58:59   done to USB ports.

00:59:00   I remain convinced that Apple could have put two USB ports

00:59:02   on this without a perceptible loss of anything to anybody,

00:59:05   but these computers don't say anything pro or con

00:59:09   to that argument, I think.

00:59:09   They are interesting though to see what other people

00:59:11   are doing with similar chipsets,

00:59:12   both in terms of price, battery life,

00:59:15   and the other type of limitations.

00:59:17   The most fun one is, what is this one here?

00:59:20   Who sent this in?

00:59:22   Someone named Ken sent in a Microsoft Windows 8.1 PC

00:59:26   the size of a dongle.

00:59:27   So it's something about,

00:59:28   they show a little lipstick container next to it.

00:59:30   It's about the size of one of those streaming sticks, right?

00:59:33   And it has more ports than the Mac Pro.

00:59:36   It's about the size of a lipstick.

00:59:37   And what does it have on it?

00:59:38   It looks like it has full-size USB, microSD port, HDMI and USB.

00:59:50   That is probably the most embarrassing.

00:59:51   But again, that's not a full-fledged computer, it doesn't have a keyboard, blah blah blah

00:59:54   blah blah.

00:59:55   It's just funny.

00:59:57   The other limit that we...

00:59:58   Did we talk about the 8 gig RAM limit?

01:00:00   I think briefly.

01:00:01   Yeah, yeah.

01:00:02   That you can't get it with 16.

01:00:04   But I'm actually more willing to...

01:00:08   So RAM chips take up room.

01:00:10   You can't put more RAM on there.

01:00:13   You can't say, "Well, I'll just shrink the other RAM."

01:00:14   I mean, I'm assuming they're fabbing the RAM at the same size as everybody else, and that

01:00:19   it would not be economical to try to press the processor.

01:00:22   And usually RAM is one of the best processor sizes anyway, because it's really easy to

01:00:25   make because it's very regular.

01:00:27   So you wouldn't need more space for the RAM.

01:00:29   Also battery power?

01:00:30   Yeah, and a little bit of battery power.

01:00:32   I think we're all well aware of the trade-offs of more RAM on portable devices, which is,

01:00:36   you know, we're always complaining about it with iOS devices.

01:00:40   But the tricky bit here is, like, we're not saying that they should all have 16.

01:00:44   Merely that 16 should be an option somewhere.

01:00:47   And historically, once Apple started soldering the RAM to the boards, it has not been good

01:00:51   about giving out--has it ever given a BTO option for a laptop with RAM soldered to the

01:00:56   board?

01:00:57   Yeah, the whole 15-inch line.

01:00:58   I thought they all came with 16 now, and that's it.

01:01:01   I bought mine, the first gen, it was an option. I got eight, I got the base model, but 16

01:01:09   was available.

01:01:10   Yeah, and for Aaron's MacBook Air that I'm talking to you on right now, the only thing

01:01:15   that made it a BTO was that I made it have 8 gigs of RAM instead of 4.

01:01:20   Yeah, so it's always nice to have that other one. And in practice, even though only nerds

01:01:25   know that more RAM needs more power and everything like that, A, a lot of people are willing

01:01:29   to take that trade-off, and b) if you asked anybody to measure that trade-off, it's actually

01:01:33   probably pretty hard to measure. You would have to come up with some sort of, you know,

01:01:37   I don't know, like, measuring energy usage is a pain, which I know from my extensive

01:01:42   attempts to try to test Maverick's battery usage. There's just so many variables, like,

01:01:47   what is representative usage for you? How can you prove that the 8 versus the 16, how

01:01:52   could you show a measurable difference, or is it just within the margin of error of your

01:01:56   your Android testing thing, like would you notice it

01:01:57   in real life, but regardless, it's nice to have choices,

01:02:00   but it's better for Apple to have one SKU,

01:02:03   although then they made it in colors, but anyway,

01:02:05   to have one board, right, to have one board

01:02:07   inside all these machines, it's a nice simplification.

01:02:10   Eight is a little bit, you know, we were talking

01:02:13   about the limitations of the machine,

01:02:14   the RAM limit is the one you can,

01:02:15   that can't get around as easily.

01:02:17   I mean, if you really pressed,

01:02:18   you can attach external storage, and for CPU stuff,

01:02:21   you can just wait longer, but RAM is just this unfixable,

01:02:24   like and it's fine for most people,

01:02:26   but if you know you need more RAM than that

01:02:27   and you'd really love to use this machine

01:02:29   then you'd be willing to say, charge me more money,

01:02:32   use more of my battery, it's more important for me

01:02:34   to have 16 gigs of RAM so I can do task X on the road

01:02:37   with a super light MacBook, this is not the product for you.

01:02:39   I think it's not the worst RAM choice they've made.

01:02:43   I think keeping one gig in the iOS devices for so long

01:02:48   was more painful than this just because of all

01:02:50   the Safari tabs going away every time

01:02:51   you switch to another app.

01:02:53   It also burned me, my RAM Star machine burned me playing Alto,

01:02:56   which by the way is a great game,

01:02:58   we should link in the show notes,

01:02:59   because I would leave the game paused,

01:03:02   and then like, I don't know if I would just close the lid,

01:03:05   and then I would open back up again and the game is gone.

01:03:08   Sometimes I forget that like,

01:03:09   if I switch away for a second to read Twitter,

01:03:12   Alto is out of memory,

01:03:13   and if I was in the middle of a run, I'm screwed now.

01:03:16   So I think the iOS devices

01:03:17   have been more RAM Star than Max lately,

01:03:19   Max have been getting better in particular

01:03:20   when they went to 16 across the board,

01:03:22   on the MacBook Pro line, it was like, thank God,

01:03:24   reflect the fact that it's a Pro.

01:03:26   So I think 8 gig is the right choice

01:03:27   for the bottom of the line here,

01:03:28   it's just a shame that it doesn't go up higher.

01:03:30   - Well, for whatever it's worth,

01:03:31   to be fair to this computer,

01:03:33   I just verified all of the MacBook Airs currently

01:03:36   ship with four stock and max out at eight.

01:03:40   Like you can BTO all of them, they max out at eight.

01:03:43   So this thing as a replacement to the MacBook Air

01:03:47   to come stock with eight is pretty good, first of all.

01:03:49   - But it's not very forward looking though,

01:03:50   like that's an old machine,

01:03:51   It's like at the end of its life.

01:03:52   It's like when the last model year of a car

01:03:55   before it goes through the generational revision.

01:03:56   Like I give the MacBook Air as a pass

01:04:00   because they're the older machine.

01:04:01   This is the new one, it should be built for the future.

01:04:02   - Well they were just updated though.

01:04:04   You know they all just got a minor update.

01:04:06   So anyway, so as this thing basically sitting

01:04:10   pretty close to the bottom of the lineup,

01:04:12   I don't think it's that unreasonable

01:04:13   for it to have eight gigs of RAM stock,

01:04:16   I mean eight gigs of RAM stock at this price

01:04:18   I think is good.

01:04:19   and maxing out at eight just matches it up

01:04:23   to the other MacBook Airs.

01:04:23   And so I think the goal here was probably

01:04:27   to minimize SKUs and board space.

01:04:30   And so I'm sure they'll switch to 16 gigs

01:04:33   once whatever mainstream RAM process,

01:04:37   basically once the DRAM chips double in size

01:04:39   that they're using.

01:04:40   (laughs)

01:04:41   Once that becomes reasonably available for a good price,

01:04:44   I bet that's when they'll do it.

01:04:45   I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

01:04:47   And I think, you know, seeing the rest of the lineup,

01:04:50   I'm actually very pleasantly surprised

01:04:52   that they all come with a minimum of eight gigs.

01:04:54   I think that's great.

01:04:55   - What does the Mac, the big tube Mac Pro come with?

01:04:58   Isn't it some ridiculous minimum, like 12 or something?

01:05:01   - 12, yeah, you're right, that is weird.

01:05:03   - Yeah.

01:05:04   - It was three DIMMs.

01:05:05   - Apple's always been really weird, right?

01:05:06   But yeah, this is fine.

01:05:07   Like far more people would find a practical use

01:05:10   for a second USB port than care about having more RAM.

01:05:13   So it's just something to note.

01:05:15   Mostly because the other comparable machines,

01:05:17   all this when it's thinner and it goes up to 16,

01:05:19   and all that other business, whatever.

01:05:21   - Yeah, I mean, again, on this machine though,

01:05:24   we're all looking at it as geeks,

01:05:26   because we all want this to be good for us,

01:05:30   because it's new and shiny and really impressive

01:05:32   in a few physical ways.

01:05:34   So we're all looking at this like getting mad at it,

01:05:37   almost like getting mad at the Apple Watch Edition

01:05:39   for not being made for us and not being priced for us.

01:05:43   We're looking at this MacBook and saying,

01:05:44   "Man, why do they only have one port, our big rage?

01:05:47   "Why is there only eight gigs of RAM here, big rage?"

01:05:50   But the fact is, it's a low spec laptop

01:05:54   made for other priorities, and it's really tiny.

01:05:58   Like, I can't think of anything I would do on this machine

01:06:02   that would need more than eight gigs of RAM,

01:06:04   because if I'm doing stuff like that,

01:06:05   I need more screen space, by a lot, not by a little.

01:06:08   I need a lot more screen space.

01:06:10   - Yeah, but some people get by with that much screen space.

01:06:12   We all have the things that annoy us.

01:06:14   The port is the most annoying one to me because I don't see the reasoning behind it.

01:06:17   The 816, the economics and the power draw and the placement of this machine is a low

01:06:24   end machine, but I don't think a second USB port is a high end feature.

01:06:29   That's the one that I think is the most needless, the most sort of arbitrary as far as we know.

01:06:35   There's no good reason to support it, it's just what they want to do.

01:06:38   Whereas the 8 gigs of RAM we can all think of lots of good reasons for it.

01:06:41   And the screen size, like, that may annoy you because you have trouble working in a

01:06:44   small, but you see why the screen is small because that's how big the laptop is.

01:06:47   Like that, there's a direct correlation there.

01:06:49   So this is low on my list, it's just, I thought it was worth discussing in the context of

01:06:56   Apple's history of RAM limits.

01:06:58   And bringing up the four gigs on the air is great because that shows how far they've come.

01:07:02   This thing had come up with four, we would be screaming about it way more than the port

01:07:05   situation, I think.

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01:09:58   All right.

01:10:00   We're getting there.

01:10:02   sponsor Stone Follow-Up. Yeah, MagSafe and USB-C and tripability. We talked about this

01:10:08   before the machine came out, but not so much afterwards. And luckily we don't have to do

01:10:13   the hard work because—was this Glenn Fleischman, I think? In Macworld? Yep. Tried to figure

01:10:18   out—again, in the grand tradition of all of us commenting on things we've never seen

01:10:23   or touched—tried to figure out how this new MacBook will behave if you trip over the

01:10:29   cord versus how MagSafe behaves.

01:10:32   With all sorts of perhaps questionable physics, he did involve Dr. Drang in this discussion,

01:10:38   but predictably Dr. Drang had complaints about how the information was conveyed after the

01:10:42   fact.

01:10:43   Anyway, we'll put the link in the show notes.

01:10:44   He tried to use coefficients of friction and physics and forces to figure out what will

01:10:49   happen when you trip over the cord of your USB-C connected new MacBook.

01:10:54   I don't know what will happen.

01:10:55   I remember when we first discussed this, I was totally willing to believe that because

01:10:59   the connector is so tiny, it might have similar performance characteristics to MagSafe depending

01:11:06   on the angle that the thing is pulled in.

01:11:10   Apparently the thing that matters the most is how quickly the force is applied, not so

01:11:14   much the direction.

01:11:15   Anyway, read the story.

01:11:18   We'll all find out once we get these things and our kids and significant others start

01:11:23   tripping over them.

01:11:24   >> BRIAN KARDELL Yeah, I mean, the problem is, you know, if

01:11:26   you look at both Glenn and Dr. Drank's analyses of this, they have to make some estimations

01:11:32   here and there and some ballparks here and there because we just don't have certain

01:11:35   information but it basically looks like there's a very very good chance of it being able to

01:11:43   be pulled off a table with enough force or enough speed of tripping over that cable with

01:11:48   so much leeway that it's pretty clear that even if their assumptions are not that accurate,

01:11:56   there's so much leeway in the number that like,

01:11:58   yeah, pretty much like, you don't wanna have this thing

01:12:01   plugged in with the cable draped across something

01:12:03   where people are gonna be walking.

01:12:04   Like again, if this is, this is yet another thing.

01:12:07   If that's important to you,

01:12:09   this machine is not right for you.

01:12:11   Or you need to get some kind of extension cord.

01:12:12   - MagSafe could go away entirely and Apple could just,

01:12:15   again, like I was saying, they didn't make a big deal

01:12:17   out of this by saying, we thought MagSafe was a good idea

01:12:19   but it turns out it's not a big deal.

01:12:20   They just didn't mention it.

01:12:21   And if this turns out not to be a problem,

01:12:24   I can see them ditching MagSafe and all their other machines too, just because they're gonna

01:12:27   get thinner too, and MagSafe is pretty big, and MagSafe 2 was worse than MagSafe 1, partially,

01:12:32   we assume, because it got smaller and didn't, you know what I mean?

01:12:34   Like it didn't quite work as well.

01:12:36   People complain about MagSafe not staying connected enough.

01:12:42   Like they use it on their couch and they switch to MagSafe 2 and it was always coming disconnected

01:12:45   and it was annoying them.

01:12:47   It seems like the problem is in the other direction, so now maybe this is a solution

01:12:50   for those people to say, "Well, you were annoyed by MagSafe 2 constantly coming disconnected

01:12:54   when you didn't want it to, when no one's tripping over it, well this will solve that problem for you.

01:12:58   And yeah, I think an interesting thing about their analysis was they were taking force numbers from the USB spec,

01:13:06   because the USB spec says how much what the min and max force is for plugging and unplugging.

01:13:10   There's a pretty wide range there, but it's interesting that, you know,

01:13:13   they could get as far as they could with the analysis without actually having machines to trip over.

01:13:17   And Peter Wagenet or Wagonet or something like that

01:13:21   tweeted

01:13:23   that

01:13:25   No mag safe on the new MacBooks means Apple doesn't expect to use it use it plugged in no one complains about no mag safe

01:13:30   On the iPad this is the idea that with this all-day battery life and so on and so forth you don't use it plugged in

01:13:36   When you're using it, it's not plugged in and like your iPad when you're or your phone when you're not using it you plug it in

01:13:41   Unfortunately I have seen a lot of people including my children much to my chagrin use iOS devices while plugged in

01:13:49   This is a no-no in terms of cable life

01:13:51   Although I still maintain my unbroken record of never having destroyed a lightning cable or never having I broke mine this week or last week

01:13:58   I lost my first one. I'm so upset you lost it as in damaged it to the point. It doesn't work

01:14:03   Yeah, I mean it to me it was the one I'm using in an elevation dock

01:14:06   So it has like this bracket that like it like turns it on a right angle

01:14:09   So like I'm not surprised it's that one, but I'm still annoyed

01:14:14   - Yeah, so, but I do see people, have you seen this?

01:14:17   Have you done it yourself,

01:14:18   used an iOS device while plugged in?

01:14:21   - I do.

01:14:21   - Yeah, my kid's iPad, which is also the first iOS device

01:14:25   I've ever had that has a cracked screen,

01:14:28   that is frequently being used while plugged in

01:14:30   because a lot of times kids,

01:14:34   especially when they're not even three,

01:14:36   don't remember to plug their iPads in all the time

01:14:38   when they need to.

01:14:40   So sometimes it's desired to be used

01:14:43   at a time when it's not fully charged.

01:14:45   - My son has Marco's range anxiety for his iPad

01:14:50   because he watches YouTube videos,

01:14:52   he used to play Minecraft on it,

01:14:53   but then he watches YouTube videos.

01:14:54   And he's never really in danger of running out of battery,

01:14:58   even on this, it's an original iPad 2, right?

01:15:01   But if the battery looks a little bit low,

01:15:04   it just makes him feel safer

01:15:06   to just use it plugged in all the time,

01:15:07   which is terrible because he's constantly kinking the cord

01:15:09   and moving around and I'm like, you're at 100%,

01:15:11   You've been at 100% for 20 minutes.

01:15:13   Unplug the thing.

01:15:14   You can go to another place.

01:15:15   You don't have to be sitting next to the court.

01:15:17   Anyway, the idea that the new MacBook,

01:15:19   that that's the model they're going with there,

01:15:21   is like you don't use it when it's plugged in.

01:15:23   And then Serenity Colwell replied to that same thread.

01:15:26   She says, "Well, if the MacBook had 12 to 15 hours

01:15:29   of battery, maybe, but nine is right on the edge for me."

01:15:32   So, you know, can you use it like an iPad?

01:15:35   iPad has a comfortable 10,

01:15:37   and I think people are less likely

01:15:39   to just sit in front of an iPad for an entire working day

01:15:42   and do not go accept it, I guess.

01:15:44   Anyway, we'll see.

01:15:45   If that is the new use case,

01:15:47   and if they can stretch out the battery

01:15:48   to the point where people stop feeling

01:15:50   like they need to have it plugged in while they're using it,

01:15:52   they just use it and it's not plugged in

01:15:54   and then close it up, put it someplace else,

01:15:55   plug it in when you're not using it,

01:15:57   that could make the MagSafe issue moot as well.

01:16:01   - Yeah, but that's, I totally agree with Serenity

01:16:03   that all these new Apple laptops,

01:16:06   you can tell, like Jason Snell had that post

01:16:07   a couple months back that Apple was like solving for a certain battery life with the iPads

01:16:13   and with the iPhones and you could see like especially with the iPads like it's very clear

01:16:16   that Apple takes whatever gains they get with advancements in battery technology or more

01:16:22   efficient components any gains they get that in battery life that could be used to make

01:16:26   something with much longer battery life they usually apply instead to keep the same battery

01:16:31   life but with less physical battery and then you can make the whole thing thinner and lighter.

01:16:35   - Could you just attribute that to Jason Snell?

01:16:38   - He wrote the article about it, right?

01:16:40   - We talked about it like a year ago.

01:16:42   - Well, yeah, but he wrote an article about it,

01:16:44   and he had pretty graphs, come on.

01:16:46   - I know, just because he wrote it down,

01:16:48   you attribute your own idea to Jason

01:16:51   because he wrote about it.

01:16:52   Not that I'm saying, Jason's right, we agree with him,

01:16:54   but I think it was you or us, we talked about this

01:16:57   like a year before he wrote that,

01:16:58   but because he wrote it down in a blog post,

01:17:00   our podcast discussions don't count,

01:17:02   and now this is Jason's idea.

01:17:03   - I'm sure if we said it a year ago,

01:17:06   I'm sure we weren't the first people to say it even then.

01:17:07   - I know, but of all the people to attribute to,

01:17:10   attribute to yourself, you, oh nevermind.

01:17:13   - Doesn't matter who said it, but,

01:17:15   you know, I think if you look across Apple's lineup,

01:17:17   like this is one of those areas where like,

01:17:19   I think they have calculated that a little bit wrong.

01:17:22   I, like I would love to have 25% more battery life

01:17:26   across the line, 30%, like 40%,

01:17:27   something like the six plus kind of does that,

01:17:30   but I think it does that almost accidentally.

01:17:33   In the laptops, they're all within the same pretty narrow range, or lower, like the 11

01:17:39   inch is actually lower, but they're all within this like, you know, 9 to 11 hour range

01:17:45   that's all like pretty close.

01:17:48   And the problem is those numbers are wildly variable based on what you're doing with

01:17:53   it.

01:17:54   If you're doing something that stresses the CPU more than average, that number could

01:17:58   drop by half.

01:18:00   You know, there isn't necessarily enough leeway

01:18:03   for a lot of people in these numbers

01:18:05   to be running untethered to things all day.

01:18:07   And if that was how you're intended

01:18:10   to use this laptop all the time,

01:18:12   personally, I would want a longer battery life on it.

01:18:14   I would want, you know, more like 15 hours.

01:18:17   - Yeah, and Marco, you have just recently done the thing

01:18:20   that I've seen done many other places,

01:18:23   which is somehow arranged to have a Apple power connector

01:18:27   snaking out of the cushions in your couch.

01:18:29   - Yes.

01:18:30   would you do that? Because you find yourself using Apple devices and you have range anxiety

01:18:36   as well, you would just feel more comfortable being able to plug them in. Have it on your

01:18:39   lap and to plug them in, sit on your couch and do it. And really that's the kind of usage

01:18:43   where MagSafe comes in handy. Because in the office, if people are sitting at their desk

01:18:48   with their laptop plugged in, the cords are down behind, they're not in a trippable location,

01:18:53   but in people's houses, when they're using them on their couches, that's when things

01:18:56   get tripped over. And it's like, why are you having it plugged in when you use it on your

01:18:59   couch. Well, you feel like I just always keep it next to the couch and it's a pain to plug

01:19:03   in and unplug it and sometimes I'm near the end of the battery but I don't want to stop

01:19:06   what I'm doing whether it's watching a movie or playing a game or even just web browsing.

01:19:10   So it's nice to have it on your lap and have it plugged in, right? And so then eventually

01:19:13   you end up snaking the little Apple power cord up between the cushions in your couch

01:19:17   and it's convenient, right? And I think it's going to be very difficult. You're going to

01:19:21   have to have a hell of a battery to stop people from doing that and nine hours is comfortably

01:19:25   below that limit where I think you feel like you have to go to like 24 hours or something

01:19:29   And even then, the problem is if people don't pay attention,

01:19:32   like if they forget to charge it overnight,

01:19:33   they come in the next morning, they're like,

01:19:34   "Oh, well, it's not like I'm not gonna use my computer.

01:19:36   "Let me just plug it in while I use it."

01:19:38   Yeah, exactly.

01:19:39   - Yeah, we definitely have one of those cords

01:19:41   snaked between our couch as well.

01:19:43   - It's a good idea.

01:19:44   It's a thing.

01:19:46   No, I've seen it over many years.

01:19:48   I've resisted doing it mostly because I stick to iOS devices

01:19:51   on the couch and so far I've been able to keep that policy.

01:19:54   But if someone, like we have--

01:19:55   - Oh no, our cord is an iOS cord, it's a lightning cable.

01:19:57   - Yeah, same here.

01:19:58   So you're using like iPads plugged in? Usually iPhones, but sometimes iPads.

01:20:03   Same here. iPhones! See, you're using the iPhones plugged in. Like I said, I have my

01:20:07   battery life on my 6, I mean it's a new phone, and so far I have not ever had to use it plugged

01:20:13   in. Occasionally, my iPad upstairs, I'm in a big Alto session and I notice I'm getting

01:20:17   a little low on battery, I get nervous, but I don't like using it plugged in.

01:20:22   Speaking of plugging things in, one or the other, this should have been the Naysayer

01:20:25   section, the idea that like, well if they had two USB-C ports, what are you going to

01:20:29   do? Have one that you can charge through and one that you can't? That's confusing. There's

01:20:32   people who have two minds in this. Some people said having one port that you can charge from

01:20:35   and one that you can't is too confusing, it's a non-starter. And other people said you can't

01:20:38   have two ports that you can charge from because it's confusing. I'm not sure what would be

01:20:40   confusing that people wouldn't know which port they're, like if it works in both, they

01:20:44   don't have to know, but somehow they'd be concerned that they were plugging in the wrong

01:20:47   one. And a lot of people said it's just impossible, you can't have something that charges from

01:20:50   both ports because it's electrically impossible or because whatever. so the

01:20:56   Chromebook pixel actually has two USB C ports and it can charge from both of

01:21:01   them so it is not electrically impossible if you thought that was

01:21:04   the case. here's a product that shows that it's not. I assume this machine does

01:21:08   not immediately burst into flames if you plug in the charger into both sides. we

01:21:11   have this amazing technology that can sense when things are plugged in. we have

01:21:15   the technology we can make something with two USB C charging ports. can you

01:21:19   make it with four, six, I believe we can. We sent a man to the moon, I believe we can

01:21:23   make a computer with six USB charging ports. Whether or not that becomes more complicated

01:21:29   to some degree that precludes it, I don't know. But anyway, there is one that charges

01:21:32   from two. If you think charging from two is more confusing than charging from only one,

01:21:38   I don't know. I don't know what the right call is. I think either one would probably

01:21:42   be fine, but if you're going to have two identical looking ports, and you're not going to make

01:21:46   one clearly the charging port you should just be it make it charge from either

01:21:49   port and I think we can do that well I don't think we have time for anything

01:21:53   else this week except for all this follow-up. We're almost there, we're almost there, there's like two more items we're gonna do it.

01:21:58   Okay go for it. Mirrored display only. I put a question mark because I didn't

01:22:02   check that is that the case you can't do extended display you can only mirror the

01:22:05   display. Doesn't sound right. I was thinking about a desk at work if I'm

01:22:10   forced to get a laptop to replace my current Mac Pro at work I would actually

01:22:13   choose to do it mirrored just so my windows wouldn't move every time I plug

01:22:16   and unplug. You are the only human who would ever say that. Because I only like one

01:22:21   screen I would only ever look at like the main screen right and what I would

01:22:24   do is get a 15 inch and set it to the max like Faco resolution and just have

01:22:29   it be the same on my 24 inch monitor anyway. You are insane sir. I don't know

01:22:35   if that's the case we'll leave a question mark. FaceTime camera downgraded

01:22:38   from 720p to 480p I put a question mark after that but I think it's true right?

01:22:41   - Right, two things.

01:22:43   First of all, the real-time follow-up,

01:22:44   nobody_ in the chat room is quoting the MacBook specs page,

01:22:48   and it's right there on the specs page,

01:22:50   just does support display spanning and mirroring.

01:22:53   So that's not a problem.

01:22:54   And then secondly, who cares about the resolution

01:22:57   of the front camera?

01:22:59   This is one of those like megapixel race things

01:23:00   where the resolution has never mattered.

01:23:03   - Well, 480 is pushing it, don't you think?

01:23:05   - No, it goes from a crappy camera with more pixels

01:23:08   to a crappy camera with less pixels.

01:23:11   Either way, you're getting crappy images.

01:23:13   It's not made for quality.

01:23:14   It's made for like just barely being good enough

01:23:16   to do FaceTime.

01:23:17   That's all it's for.

01:23:18   - Casey needs to say he's beautiful baby's face in HD.

01:23:21   - Sure.

01:23:22   - And so do I for that matter.

01:23:23   Everybody does.

01:23:24   But Marco said it's probably true

01:23:25   about the light gathering ability of those pixels.

01:23:27   I don't think it's a big deal.

01:23:28   I think, I assume it was kind of mostly there

01:23:31   for cost savings, but I don't think any,

01:23:33   I don't know, 480 I think is the type of thing

01:23:35   I would notice.

01:23:36   480 versus 720, I think I would notice that.

01:23:38   but it's just kind of a shame.

01:23:41   Like you know it's gonna be 720 in like a revision or two.

01:23:44   Like I'm gonna pull a Marcus Brown leader

01:23:46   and say guaranteed two or three revisions from now,

01:23:49   that camera will not be 480.

01:23:51   - Quote me.

01:23:51   - Oh, it's very possible.

01:23:52   Yeah, I'm just saying it probably isn't that big of a deal.

01:23:55   - So this will be just like the one year

01:23:57   that it came with a 480.

01:23:58   Anyway, not a big deal, but something to keep in mind

01:24:00   if you really care about having HD pictures

01:24:02   while you, whatever, like just use your phone,

01:24:04   it's got a higher definition camera to do FaceTime stuff.

01:24:08   Uh, I'm gonna skip the three finger drag thing.

01:24:11   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week.

01:24:13   Uh, I can't even read that.

01:24:15   Hold on.

01:24:16   Yeah, I can fit one more item in while you search.

01:24:18   Damn it!

01:24:19   Ah!

01:24:20   Fracture, Igloo, and Squarespace, and we will see you next week.

01:24:21   Haha, I beat you.

01:24:22   Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin.

01:24:29   'Cause it was accidental.

01:24:31   Oh, it was accidental.

01:24:33   John didn't do any research.

01:24:36   If you didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

01:24:40   'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

01:24:43   It was accidental (it was accidental)

01:24:46   And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

01:24:51   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

01:24:56   @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

01:25:00   So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:25:04   Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C, USA, Syracuse, it's accidental.

01:25:13   It's accidental.

01:25:15   They didn't mean to.

01:25:17   Accidental.

01:25:18   Accidental.

01:25:19   Tech broadcast so long.

01:25:24   Dude, we have got to put a time limit on follow up.

01:25:26   Yeah, like, this is ridiculous.

01:25:29   Alright, so let's save it by talking Nintendo, but we-

01:25:31   But we this is a topic too. I mean like I I think just because we talked about it on the previous show

01:25:38   Which makes it follow up on this show doesn't make it any less of a topic than it was last week

01:25:43   You know what? I mean? It's still the same subject. Yeah

01:25:45   Yeah

01:25:46   And I also blame Marco for going to England and delaying the show because we would not have had this much follow-up if we had

01:25:51   Recorded on Wednesday. We would have had two days less believe me. It would have been pretty similar. Yeah. Yeah

01:25:57   - Yeah, I don't know, I think it's an interesting machine

01:26:00   with a lot of interesting compromises

01:26:02   and it's worth talking about.

01:26:03   - Oh yeah.

01:26:04   - I agree, so now let's talk about something

01:26:06   potentially uplifting and let's get our Nintendo chat

01:26:09   out of the way real quick, because that'll totally be quick.

01:26:12   - Are you serious?

01:26:13   - Oh actually, no, no, no, what about the six plus?

01:26:15   You wanna talk about that?

01:26:16   That'll be a topic and it'll be quickish.

01:26:18   - So I went on this trip and I brought with me a six plus

01:26:21   to do the local SIM card thing,

01:26:23   'cause my six plus is unlocked,

01:26:25   I bought it for developer testing.

01:26:27   - Let me stop you there.

01:26:28   Where did you get your local SIM?

01:26:29   'Cause I've never done this

01:26:30   and I'm very intrigued by the whole process.

01:26:32   - I had never done it either,

01:26:33   but I was tipped off in advance by our friend Daniel Jaka.

01:26:36   This was like really easy in England.

01:26:37   And it varies by country.

01:26:39   Some places it's easier than others.

01:26:41   But in England, you can just go,

01:26:44   like there's a store in the airport.

01:26:46   Like I walked out of customs

01:26:48   and while waiting for my ride,

01:26:50   there was a store right there that sold SIMs.

01:26:52   So I walked in and they did it right there.

01:26:55   like I paid 30 pounds for a sim on the Carrier 3

01:26:59   and it supports, 30 pounds got me 30 days

01:27:04   of unlimited data, some number of local UK minutes

01:27:09   that I would never use, and even tethering with all that.

01:27:12   And I asked the guy, I'm like, well,

01:27:13   I'm going to Ireland in two weeks.

01:27:15   So no, not every sim in England will work in Ireland.

01:27:17   Three is one of the only ones that does.

01:27:19   And I asked the guy, oh, does it work there?

01:27:21   He said, yeah, but there's a limit on the tethering there.

01:27:24   I'm like, oh, 25 gigs.

01:27:26   - Well, my God, that's amazing.

01:27:28   - Oh, okay, so don't worry, that won't be a problem.

01:27:32   So yeah, 30 pounds got me all that,

01:27:33   and some people were saying they got a very similar plan

01:27:36   for 15 pounds somewhere else,

01:27:38   so that might have even been overpriced.

01:27:39   - I would absolutely pay 30 pounds for that,

01:27:41   are you kidding me?

01:27:42   That's amazing. - Yeah, and that's like,

01:27:44   even after the exchange rate,

01:27:45   that is cheaper than what I pay per month for AT&T

01:27:50   in my home plan, and it comes with unlimited data.

01:27:52   I mean, that's a better plan than I have at home,

01:27:54   for less money.

01:27:56   So I did that, and the guy, I brought my phone,

01:27:59   the guy popped it in right there,

01:28:00   and even though I did bring my own SIM removal tool,

01:28:04   which is a paperclip, 'cause I don't have the official one.

01:28:06   - Do they not have paperclips in England,

01:28:07   along with no top sheets?

01:28:09   - I didn't want to presume that they would have paperclips,

01:28:11   so I brought my own paperclip in my carry-on bag.

01:28:14   So, yeah, so I brought the 6 Plus as my unlocked phone,

01:28:16   and normally I just pay AT&T the 30 bucks

01:28:20   for the 120 megs of data and then I'm just afraid

01:28:24   to use it ever for the whole trip.

01:28:27   So it ends up I pay 30 bucks to not have data

01:28:29   for the whole trip or I accidentally use it

01:28:32   and launch Instagram once and then I've blown the cap

01:28:35   and pay another 30 bucks every 100 megs.

01:28:39   It's annoying.

01:28:40   So anyway, this is the first trip where I did this

01:28:41   and it was great.

01:28:43   It was fantastic to just not have to think about it.

01:28:45   Just, you know, I have an iPhone,

01:28:48   like I always have an iPhone.

01:28:50   I can just use it whenever I want and it's fine.

01:28:52   I'll fit within whatever limit there is.

01:28:54   It's just by my normal usage

01:28:55   and I can download stuff if I want to.

01:28:57   I can tether if I want to.

01:28:58   It's great.

01:28:59   So definitely recommend doing this

01:29:01   if you have any unlocked phones.

01:29:04   I also, in advance, just in case,

01:29:06   I unlocked my old AT&T 5S,

01:29:08   which you can do,

01:29:10   AT&T now has a thing you can do it online.

01:29:12   It takes like five minutes.

01:29:13   You can just fill, you fill out a form online

01:29:14   and it sends it to them to review

01:29:16   and then like two minutes later,

01:29:17   They approve it and that's it.

01:29:20   So that was great.

01:29:22   And I spent the whole week using the 6 Plus.

01:29:26   - Did you download season five of Mad Men

01:29:28   while you were asleep?

01:29:29   (laughing)

01:29:30   You could have done that with 25 gigs,

01:29:31   it would have been, well, it would have been close.

01:29:33   - No, no, it was unlimited in the UK.

01:29:35   I'm limited for two weeks from now when I go back.

01:29:38   So tethering was great, using it as data was great,

01:29:42   and using the 6 Plus, it felt really, really weird

01:29:46   and huge for about the first half a day.

01:29:49   And then I just forgot about it and it just felt normal.

01:29:54   And there were times where it felt large in my pocket

01:29:56   here and there, but for the most part,

01:29:59   like when I first got the 6 Plus for my testing

01:30:02   and everything when it came out,

01:30:04   that was when we were all coming from the five line

01:30:07   of phones and so the 6 and the 6 Plus both felt really big.

01:30:12   And I was barely able to really hold onto the 6,

01:30:15   let alone the 6 Plus, which just looked ridiculous.

01:30:18   But now, having now used the 6 for so long,

01:30:22   going to the 6 Plus from the 6 was not a huge jump.

01:30:24   It didn't feel that ridiculous,

01:30:26   now that I'm used to the 6.

01:30:28   And once I was using the 6 Plus for half a day,

01:30:31   it felt fine, it felt good.

01:30:34   And then, and I was able to enjoy it,

01:30:35   to just really, you know, just enjoy all the screen space.

01:30:39   As a travel device, I mean, as an everyday device,

01:30:42   I'm not sure if I would prefer that,

01:30:43   just because it is pretty big in the pocket,

01:30:45   but as a travel device, I loved it

01:30:48   because it has way better battery life.

01:30:50   Mine happens to be unlocked,

01:30:51   so that helps a lot with international stuff.

01:30:54   And it's nice to, like, so, and on this trip,

01:30:57   I didn't bring an iPad at all.

01:30:58   - It's a phablet, you had a phablet, you didn't use it.

01:31:00   - Yeah, there was no reason to bring an iPad.

01:31:02   And so I had this little phone, and like, hey, you know,

01:31:04   this is how I cut down the weight of my laptop in my bag.

01:31:09   I stopped bringing an iPad.

01:31:11   saved a pound and a half right there.

01:31:13   So now I have a 15 inch laptop and no iPad

01:31:16   and then I'm carrying around the same size bag

01:31:19   as all these people with their MacBook Airs

01:31:21   and their 10 different devices.

01:31:23   So I think the 6 Plus is great.

01:31:25   So I came home yesterday and switched back to my 6

01:31:31   on AT&T now and now the 6 feels tiny.

01:31:35   Like it actually feels like noticeably small

01:31:38   and I miss the screen space.

01:31:41   and I might actually switch back at some point.

01:31:43   I'm not sure yet.

01:31:44   Certainly I'll switch back when I go to Ireland

01:31:46   in two weeks, but I get the six plus now.

01:31:49   Like I gave it the chance, now I understand it.

01:31:53   I get it, I get why people like it.

01:31:55   I like it, I'm not sure if I like it enough

01:31:57   to use it full time or to get another one next year.

01:32:01   I don't know about that, but I get it now.

01:32:04   And I think all of us who were saying

01:32:06   that it was completely ridiculous

01:32:08   and couldn't understand who would buy it,

01:32:10   I think, you know, give it a try sometime.

01:32:13   And it's really, I totally get it now,

01:32:17   and I might convert at some point, we'll see.

01:32:20   - I hope my grandkids find this episode

01:32:22   so they can laugh at us all about the idea that like,

01:32:25   you have to decide on a certain set

01:32:29   of differently sized pieces of glass to bring with you.

01:32:32   Like, so I've got the really small one, which is my phone,

01:32:34   and then I've got the iPad, and then I've got the laptop,

01:32:36   which has the keyboard, and you're shuffling around.

01:32:37   Well, if we could make this piece of glass

01:32:39   little bit bigger than I can get rid of that piece of glass

01:32:40   because this now fills the gap of whatever.

01:32:43   And they all have every image being displayed

01:32:44   in the back of their retinas

01:32:45   by tiny nano machines or something.

01:32:47   And it'd be like, remember when they had to pick

01:32:48   different pieces of glass and pack them in their suitcases?

01:32:50   What jerks.

01:32:52   - No, I mean, really it is a really good device.

01:32:55   And like, I mean, it totally eliminated any desire

01:32:58   I had for an iPad while I was there.

01:33:00   I mean, I'm obviously, you know,

01:33:02   I said when I bought this last iPad

01:33:04   that I was experimenting 'cause I had kind of fallen

01:33:07   out of iPad usage and part of it I thought was just

01:33:10   'cause I had like all the worst hardware

01:33:13   and so I got the best iPad

01:33:15   and to see if that would fix my usage and it hasn't.

01:33:18   So I don't think I'll be getting any more iPads

01:33:20   for a long time.

01:33:21   Now that I see the 6 Plus,

01:33:22   like I really do respect this device

01:33:24   and it might be the phone for me

01:33:26   'cause it has more space.

01:33:27   If you're not gonna have an iPad,

01:33:29   it's a great balance between the two

01:33:31   for screen space reasons

01:33:33   and you can't beat the battery life.

01:33:35   And with the Apple, I had the Apple leather case on it,

01:33:39   just like I have on the 6.

01:33:41   And with the Apple leather case, grip is perfectly fine.

01:33:43   I had no issues with feeling like

01:33:46   I was gonna drop it at all.

01:33:48   One handedness was obviously not great.

01:33:52   In my limited usage of it during this few days,

01:33:55   it didn't really come up, it wasn't really a problem.

01:33:57   Once the watch comes out, it'll be even less of a problem

01:34:00   'cause there'll be less need to use it one handed,

01:34:03   we'll see.

01:34:04   another size piece of glass.

01:34:05   Like it's really like it's this continuum from like from the big piece of glass to the

01:34:09   smallest and it's like how many sizes in between do I need?

01:34:12   Can I eliminate a device by having a really really tiny one and then a bigger gap and

01:34:16   then a bigger one or like what is the right number of pieces of glass sizes from small

01:34:21   to big?

01:34:22   And what you're describing Marco is the shuffling of the structure of that internally and now

01:34:27   all of a sudden there's gonna be a new a new tiny piece of glass coming in you're like

01:34:30   that may let me make my other piece of glass bigger

01:34:33   because the small one will figure,

01:34:35   and it's all just about like,

01:34:36   how big is the little light up picture that I'm seeing

01:34:39   and how many of those little pictures

01:34:40   do I have to carry around with me?

01:34:41   And I think the other aspect of this is that

01:34:44   it's not really just a bunch of interchangeable

01:34:46   different sized pieces of glass

01:34:47   because to a degree that is still slightly uncomfortable,

01:34:51   these are separate devices.

01:34:52   And yes, iCloud and yes, the web and email and Twitter

01:34:56   and things being, and all that business

01:34:58   that tries to make them feel kind of like the same thing,

01:35:00   but they're not.

01:35:01   Like, it's not synchronized to the degree where you're like,

01:35:05   this is just a differently sized window

01:35:06   into my world digital crap.

01:35:09   A lot of it's like that,

01:35:11   but maybe a game is installed here and not there.

01:35:13   Well, maybe you can't play a game here and not there.

01:35:15   Maybe this thing has an app that that thing doesn't.

01:35:16   Maybe if I edit a document over here,

01:35:18   I gotta wait for it to sync over there.

01:35:19   Maybe from the middle, you know,

01:35:20   with Handoff in between them,

01:35:22   and then the gap between iPad and phone,

01:35:24   and the gap between the iOS devices and the Mac,

01:35:26   We just need to fast forward like 300 years,

01:35:29   'cause I can see where this is going

01:35:30   and we're not quite there yet and also frustrating.

01:35:33   - All I know is Mike Hurley's going to be intolerable

01:35:37   after hearing this.

01:35:38   - Oh, I know, that's new.

01:35:39   Well, 'cause I'm connected.

01:35:41   Does Steven have one too?

01:35:43   Steven, you're in the chat.

01:35:44   Do you have one too?

01:35:44   I know Federico's been trying a six plus.

01:35:46   Mike has had one since it came out

01:35:48   and Mike's been telling them all,

01:35:49   "Oh, the six plus is the best,"

01:35:50   and they all didn't believe him

01:35:51   and now Federico's basically converted.

01:35:54   Steven, yeah, he did too.

01:35:55   So Steven, you converted too?

01:35:57   I think he also said that he respected it

01:35:59   and appreciated it.

01:36:00   - Just watch what's gonna happen when the watch comes,

01:36:02   'cause that's gonna screw up everybody's lineup

01:36:03   of little glass squares, or rectangles really.

01:36:06   (laughing)

01:36:07   - Real time follow up, Steven Hackett said he had a loaner,

01:36:10   but he will be going for the larger phone the next time.

01:36:14   - Yeah, I mean, I think this is the year of all of us

01:36:18   realizing that the big screen stuff is good.

01:36:20   I got my, oh, and this was yet another trip.

01:36:22   Again, last week I'm saying,

01:36:24   "Oh, well, you know, maybe I'll go with the smaller screen

01:36:27   "on my next laptop to get a small laptop."

01:36:30   And then I take this trip where I'm working on my slides

01:36:35   until the last minute, of course, 'cause I always am.

01:36:37   And I'm like, "Man, I am so glad I have this big screen."

01:36:40   On the plane on the way home,

01:36:41   I'm working on an overcast in Xcode.

01:36:42   I'm like, "Man, I'm so glad I have this 15 inch laptop."

01:36:45   So I think this is the year where I admit to myself

01:36:49   that even though the small stuff is all sexy,

01:36:52   I actually enjoy using the bigger stuff more.

01:36:55   - You were just saying how there's not so long ago,

01:36:58   I think both of you were saying

01:36:59   that if Apple made a four inch version of the iPhone,

01:37:02   the next version of the iPhone,

01:37:03   you might consider getting in instead of the six size.

01:37:06   So you've gone up totally, not only getting used to the six,

01:37:08   but saying, in fact,

01:37:09   you'll go possibly in the other direction.

01:37:11   So the market for it,

01:37:13   do you think there's still a market

01:37:14   for a smaller size of iPhone or no?

01:37:16   Just be based on, I mean, for you, obviously not,

01:37:19   you see, you're not gonna buy one,

01:37:21   but do you think Apple should still make one?

01:37:23   - I honestly don't know.

01:37:25   They could sell it.

01:37:27   I mean, people would buy it.

01:37:29   - Who would buy it?

01:37:30   - Besides John Gruber, I don't know.

01:37:34   - Would he still buy it?

01:37:35   Like, it could be that just like through sort of

01:37:37   indoctrination by forcing everyone in the Apple,

01:37:41   everyone who wants a new iPhone being forced,

01:37:43   this is the smallest one you can get,

01:37:44   just deal with it for a year.

01:37:46   And then, like we said,

01:37:48   it could be that you go back to the old size

01:37:49   and it seems ridiculously small to you.

01:37:51   I still find the six, again, not so much in the hand,

01:37:55   but as you said, in the pocket, just my plain old six.

01:37:58   How long have I had it now?

01:37:59   A couple months?

01:38:00   - Yeah.

01:38:01   - In the pocket, I still feel like, man,

01:38:03   I remember my other one was not such a hassle in my pocket.

01:38:06   And usage, fine, I'm okay with it.

01:38:08   In the pocket, it feels small.

01:38:09   But of course, I have all these iPod Touch

01:38:10   running around the house and I pick them up

01:38:12   and I say, the pocket, you know, it's worth it

01:38:15   to deal with the pocket thing, you know?

01:38:17   - Exactly, it's always a trade-off, right?

01:38:19   and that's with the 6 Plus, it's a trade-off.

01:38:21   It is significantly bigger in the pocket.

01:38:23   It is harder to use one-handed than the 4-inch phone.

01:38:27   I don't necessarily think it's harder

01:38:28   to use one-handed than the 6.

01:38:30   I would say compared to the 6, it's about the same.

01:38:34   Like, I really don't think it's harder to use than the 6.

01:38:39   And because either way,

01:38:41   you're not reaching the whole screen.

01:38:42   Either way, you're changing your grip in such a way

01:38:44   that you gotta kinda like have this wide claw

01:38:46   and kinda hover over things, like that's fine.

01:38:49   When I was going for the trip,

01:38:50   I have two unlocked phones now.

01:38:51   I have the 5S and the 6 Plus.

01:38:53   And I charged up both and I launched it.

01:38:57   I have all my stuff on both

01:38:58   and I played with the 5S for a few minutes

01:39:01   and it was just too tiny.

01:39:02   Like I loved how tiny it felt in my hand,

01:39:05   but when I tried to do anything on it,

01:39:07   I loved how I could reach everything,

01:39:08   but like it was just, I felt cramped.

01:39:10   I felt like I had no screen space.

01:39:12   And that was even before I was used to the 6 Plus.

01:39:14   Now that I'm used to the 6 Plus,

01:39:16   the 6 almost feels that way.

01:39:18   You know, it's all about what you're used to.

01:39:20   And the 6 Plus does have a better camera,

01:39:22   not by a huge amount, but it is better

01:39:24   'cause of the image stabilization.

01:39:26   So it has a better camera

01:39:27   and a significantly longer battery life.

01:39:29   Those are pretty big advantages.

01:39:31   So combine that with the screen space advantage

01:39:34   and it might be worthwhile to me.

01:39:35   I don't know.

01:39:36   We shouldn't rule things out

01:39:38   because of what we're accustomed to.

01:39:40   Because that, you know, it's all relative.

01:39:42   That can all change.

01:39:43   We said only a few months ago

01:39:46   that they should really make a smaller phone,

01:39:48   But in reality, once I'm used to the 6 now,

01:39:51   the 6 feels fine.

01:39:52   I still think that the physical design

01:39:56   of them being these slippery blobs is horrible,

01:39:59   but once I put Apple leather cases on them,

01:40:02   they became great.

01:40:03   I'm fine with them now.

01:40:05   Once I put the leather case on, it's fine, it's great.

01:40:07   I like it a lot.

01:40:08   And same thing, like the watch,

01:40:09   I was hoping to go with 38

01:40:11   'cause I don't like big, chunky watches.

01:40:14   But then I have a fit issue,

01:40:16   but also the 42 millimeter watch will have substantially

01:40:19   better battery life.

01:40:20   Apple has said it themselves.

01:40:22   We don't know by how much,

01:40:23   but it's gonna have better battery life

01:40:25   and that's gonna matter on first generation smartwatches.

01:40:28   So again, you know, going a little bit bigger

01:40:31   than I would normally be comfortable with,

01:40:33   but it's bringing advantages,

01:40:35   so it's a trade off that's worth it.

01:40:36   With the laptops, like we think the 15 inch Retina MacBook

01:40:41   Pro is this big heavy laptop,

01:40:43   But compared to the 15-inch PowerBook I bought

01:40:46   when I first converted to Macs in 2004,

01:40:49   this thing is light.

01:40:51   Like it's four and a half pounds, that one was almost six.

01:40:54   So that's a pretty substantial reduction in weight

01:40:57   proportionally, it's much thinner,

01:41:00   it's way faster of course,

01:41:02   and has all these better capabilities.

01:41:04   We're now saying, oh my God, this brand new MacBook,

01:41:08   which is 2.0 pounds, is amazing.

01:41:12   The 11 inch MacBook Air is 2.26 or something,

01:41:15   2.2 something, right?

01:41:16   So like, it's not that much lighter

01:41:19   than the 11 inch MacBook Air,

01:41:21   but we're saying, oh my god,

01:41:22   we're willing to give up so much to get this,

01:41:23   and the other ones now feel really heavy.

01:41:26   It's all relative, it's all what you're used to.

01:41:28   You know, making any kind of absolute declaration

01:41:31   about something being too big or too small or too heavy

01:41:33   or not the right size for you,

01:41:35   that can change over time based on what you're used to,

01:41:38   and it can change over shorter time spans

01:41:41   you might expect.

01:41:42   I just want to point out that you were complaining about all this fall about the MacBook sizing

01:41:46   and then you took the opportunity in the after show to discuss big iPhones, a topic that

01:41:51   I believe has been covered more than adequately by the show.

01:41:55   And I'm not complaining.

01:41:56   I am in support of you doing that.

01:41:58   Why?

01:41:59   Just because we've talked about something before doesn't mean there isn't more to say

01:42:01   about the topic.

01:42:02   Oh, goodness.

01:42:03   All right, are we done?

01:42:04   Oh, we're never done.

01:42:05   Thanks a lot, everybody.

01:42:06   All right, let's see some titles before we sign off.

01:42:07   - Thanks a lot everybody.

01:42:09   - All right, let's see some titles before we sign off.

01:42:12   - Oh my God, that was great.

01:42:14   - I can do significantly bigger in the pocket.

01:42:16   - Case lists.

01:42:18   That's pretty rough.

01:42:20   - Yeah, look who submitted that one.

01:42:21   - Not to say it's bad, but it's pretty rough.

01:42:22   - No, we're not doing list puns as titles.

01:42:25   That's the Syracuse County of Casey.

01:42:28   (laughing)

01:42:29   List puns.

01:42:30   I like going into the black hole.

01:42:32   - We are gonna do Marco Polo someday when Marco plays Polo.

01:42:36   - I don't even know what,

01:42:37   I know it's like a type of shirt

01:42:39   and there's some kind of like stupid sport that it is,

01:42:41   but I don't even know what the sport.

01:42:42   - You don't know what the polo is?

01:42:43   This is like the ultimate achievement

01:42:46   in things that Marco doesn't know about.

01:42:48   Like references you don't get.

01:42:49   I made a reference to a sport that you don't know.

01:42:51   - Oh, Marco.

01:42:53   - But I'm now reading this Wikipedia article on polo.

01:42:56   - You're learning what polo is.

01:42:57   Everyone in the chat room knows what polo is, right?

01:42:59   I'm not the only person.

01:43:00   - Yeah, it's a rich people sport.

01:43:01   - Yeah, is it like croquet on horses?

01:43:02   That's what it looks like.

01:43:03   - Yeah, basically. - Yes, yes.

01:43:04   That's stupid.

01:43:06   Why would you do this?

01:43:07   - Because rich people, Marco.

01:43:08   - I don't understand how you got to this age

01:43:10   without knowing what polo is.

01:43:13   - It has never occurred to me to even look it up.

01:43:15   - I've never seen polo in real life,

01:43:17   but I know it's a thing that exists.

01:43:19   Same like high life.

01:43:20   - Oh my God, the field is huge.

01:43:22   - Well, they're horses.

01:43:23   You can't put them on like a little basketball court.

01:43:26   - You see this combination, this diagram of a football field

01:43:30   and then a polo field.

01:43:31   - Yeah, they're horses.

01:43:33   They're big legs, they run.

01:43:34   - God, this seems like a ridiculous sport.

01:43:37   Why would anybody do this?

01:43:38   - 'Cause you're really rich and you have horses.

01:43:40   - Why would anybody have horses?

01:43:42   - It beats like chasing a fox.

01:43:45   - I guess, but I don't know.

01:43:46   I mean, you have to start with the idea

01:43:48   that it's okay to have horses to just run around on.

01:43:51   That alone is a problem.

01:43:53   - It looks really hard too.

01:43:54   Like, I mean, you gotta swing that big thing while riding.

01:43:57   Riding a horse alone is hard,

01:43:58   and then swinging the thing and hitting a ball with a horse,

01:44:00   it looks really hard.

01:44:01   - Yeah, horses have terrible suspension,

01:44:04   and I don't know.

01:44:05   I mean like they and they're only one horsepower.

01:44:07   Ugh.

01:44:08   [BLANK_AUDIO]