105: Do You Want to Sell Sugar Phones for the Rest of Your Life?


00:00:00   Margot, you're totally right.

00:00:01   Margot, you're totally right.

00:00:02   Margot, you're totally right.

00:00:05   Where does Apple use Core Data, John?

00:00:07   I don't know.

00:00:08   There's question marks after all those bullet points in the thing.

00:00:11   A bunch of people emailed us and told us and I couldn't find those emails.

00:00:16   So I think this is a follow-up from last week when I think Marco was saying that he didn't

00:00:22   know where Apple used Core Data and this was in response to it.

00:00:24   Core Data Sync in particular.

00:00:25   The iCloud Core Data Sync that was such a disaster.

00:00:29   Yes, not just plain old core data.

00:00:31   And this is in response to the idea that Apple...

00:00:35   Which API is this Apple dog food?

00:00:36   And by the way, we just had someone email us and say, "What does dog fooding mean?"

00:00:39   I sent him the Wikipedia link, but it just means using your own stuff.

00:00:43   Like if you're making an API in this specific case, and you don't use that API yourself,

00:00:47   chances are it won't be that great because you won't know the pain of using it.

00:00:49   You'll just be like, "We made this API for you.

00:00:51   Go use it."

00:00:52   But we don't know what it's like because we don't have to use it.

00:00:54   The suggestions that I think people sent us

00:00:57   for Apple applications that use core data iCloud syncing

00:01:00   are the Trailers app on iOS and syncing

00:01:03   for keyboard shortcuts between Mac and iOS.

00:01:06   Was that the only ones we sent, we got sent?

00:01:08   - That's the only ones I saw, yes.

00:01:09   - Yeah, and what's funny, so the Trailers app,

00:01:13   you know, fine, that's how much data is that actually syncing

00:01:16   between devices and yeah, that's, okay, fine.

00:01:19   Keyboard shortcuts sync.

00:01:22   I've actually heard many people complaining

00:01:25   that their shortcuts are not syncing properly.

00:01:27   So if that is using Core Data iCloud syncing,

00:01:31   that is really not a good recommendation for it.

00:01:34   - Yeah, I mean, if it's just two obscure apps, too,

00:01:36   that kind of, you know, there's exceptions

00:01:38   that prove the rule, that this is not something

00:01:39   that underlies their major apps,

00:01:41   unlike, for example, CloudKit,

00:01:42   which they're building major applications

00:01:44   like Photos and everything on top of,

00:01:45   where it's like, if that doesn't work,

00:01:46   people are gonna notice, whereas if the trailers app

00:01:49   or even keyboard shortcuts sync doesn't work,

00:01:51   maybe someone would be annoyed,

00:01:52   but it's not like it's destroying their family photos.

00:01:55   - Yeah, when I was, when was it?

00:01:58   It was when iOS 8 was in beta, I believe.

00:02:03   And I don't even think that I had upgraded

00:02:06   any of my devices to the beta at this point,

00:02:09   but my keyboard shortcuts sync was completely borked

00:02:14   until I had everything on iOS 8 and Yosemite.

00:02:17   And it was infuriating because I don't know

00:02:20   if you've noticed this about me, gentlemen,

00:02:21   but I tend to use emoji occasionally.

00:02:24   And I have shortcuts for most of my frequently used emoji

00:02:27   and I felt absolutely crippled without them.

00:02:30   It was a dark, dark time.

00:02:32   - I'm so sorry.

00:02:33   - Me too.

00:02:34   Anyway, all right.

00:02:36   So we talked in episode 102,

00:02:40   we talked in episode 102 about an interview

00:02:45   with Andy Matuszak that was in Objective-CIO

00:02:47   and Hendrik wrote in and said,

00:02:49   "Man, we should really talk about it."

00:02:50   So I guess we didn't really give it enough air time.

00:02:52   And I think one of you guys, I guess John,

00:02:55   had written a few things that we should probably

00:02:58   also bring up from that interview.

00:03:00   - It's just one thing.

00:03:01   And maybe we did talk about,

00:03:03   I vaguely remember talking about the thing,

00:03:04   but I don't remember this paragraph, the highlighted bit.

00:03:07   He's talking about React, but then,

00:03:09   Andy used to work for Apple.

00:03:11   So he talks about what it was like when he was at Apple,

00:03:15   when he was there.

00:03:15   He says, "One of the complaints I have

00:03:16   "about my time at Apple is that because the culture

00:03:18   doesn't value learning, nobody reads.

00:03:21   Nobody knows what's going on in the broader community.

00:03:23   People didn't know about React at all.

00:03:25   And this is a talk discussing React.

00:03:28   And reading that doesn't make me feel good,

00:03:31   because then it's like the bad ideas I have

00:03:33   about any big company, the idea that Apple's filled

00:03:36   with all these super smart people making amazing products,

00:03:38   but that it's sort of insular, that they're not,

00:03:42   like they're interested in what they're doing,

00:03:43   but not so much interested in what's going on elsewhere.

00:03:45   I don't know, like this is just one person's complaint about, you know, obviously one person

00:03:50   doesn't work in the whole company, they work in a small part of the company, and there's

00:03:53   obviously evidence that of places where this is not the case.

00:03:56   I would hold up Swift as an example.

00:03:58   It's clear that the design of Swift is heavily influenced by other languages, all of which

00:04:02   are being developed outside of Apple.

00:04:05   So it's obviously not as completely inward looking and insular as this complaint makes

00:04:11   it sound, but the idea that that could exist at all inside Apple is kind of disappointing

00:04:15   to me.

00:04:16   Yeah, and this is a fairly credible and relevant statement because Andy Matuszak was on UI

00:04:24   Kit in, I don't know exactly what capacity, but I think a pretty high one.

00:04:28   So he was right where the discussion of React would be most relevant, in UI Kit.

00:04:33   That's exactly where this is important.

00:04:35   He was there, and he is, as far as I'm aware, pretty well respected.

00:04:40   So I wouldn't take this comment lightly.

00:04:43   In fact, when I first read this, I was really surprised that it didn't get more attention.

00:04:51   Because to me, it's kind of a bombshell.

00:04:53   To say that because the culture doesn't value learning, nobody reads, nobody knows

00:04:59   what's going on in the broader community, those are big statements to make.

00:05:02   Especially from somebody like this, who I don't think he goes around throwing around

00:05:06   phrases like that lightly.

00:05:07   But they're also made by somebody who left, right?

00:05:10   And the person left probably because they weren't getting enough of like, you know,

00:05:13   there was new interesting novel things happening outside of Apple.

00:05:16   And Apple, in some respects, has to be more conservative because, you know, they've got

00:05:21   a big operation going on there.

00:05:22   They can't just be chasing after the newest shiny thing in all sorts of directions.

00:05:27   And as we've discussed on past shows, it seems like the technical resources at Apple are

00:05:32   fairly overextended in terms of like, it's very hard work, there are tight deadlines,

00:05:37   expected to do amazing things and put in long hours, that doesn't leave that much time left

00:05:42   to be sort of reading blogs about interesting new technology that may or may not influence.

00:05:46   And really, it ends up, if it's a personal interest, you read about it, but how relevant

00:05:50   is it?

00:05:51   Because it's like, what if you just come in one day, "Oh, I have an idea, guys!

00:05:53   Let's forget about this UI kit thing.

00:05:55   Let's do something that incorporates some of the ideas that I've seen elsewhere by reading

00:05:58   these programming blogs and looking at other frameworks."

00:06:01   They don't go, "Great, that's great!

00:06:02   Let's all replace UI kit!

00:06:04   Let's go do that!"

00:06:06   not something that happens. So if you're just doing it on your own, like the people who

00:06:10   are super interested in that I would imagine leave Apple because you're not going to get

00:06:14   to do that stuff at Apple. Very few people are going to get to make that kind of radical

00:06:18   decision and have it take place. And again, Swift is the example of it actually taking

00:06:22   place because a very important person had, you know, an idea influenced by lots of other

00:06:30   languages and managed to get it done. And even that was a fairly large effort over a

00:06:34   a long period of time and that's a situation

00:06:37   that's probably not going to repeat itself.

00:06:38   Like say Andy really loved React and the ideas inherent,

00:06:41   what could he do with those ideas at Apple

00:06:43   other than leave Apple and pursue something elsewhere

00:06:45   where he can use the stuff that he learned?

00:06:50   - One of the things that's really tough about consulting

00:06:54   is that if I do some sort of self-directed learning

00:06:58   outside of work because goodness knows

00:07:01   I'm not gonna have the time at work

00:07:02   unless I'm quote unquote on the bench

00:07:05   and not billing a client and not earning money

00:07:07   and generally a waste of space.

00:07:09   - Wait, did they actually use that phrase on the bench?

00:07:12   - I do, I think it's a common phrase.

00:07:14   That's certainly something I've always said

00:07:15   which is funny 'cause I'm not much of an athlete

00:07:17   and it comes from sports but whatever.

00:07:20   I don't know, maybe that's bothersome to most.

00:07:21   To me, that's not as bad as circle back

00:07:24   and keep me in the loop

00:07:25   and all the other godawful corporatisms.

00:07:27   - Parking lot.

00:07:28   - Parking lot, exactly.

00:07:31   But anyway, so if I do some self-directed learning, let's say, I don't know, maybe I

00:07:34   learn a little bit about Node for whatever reason.

00:07:37   The likelihood that I'm going to be able to bring that back to the office in a direct

00:07:41   way is virtually non-existent.

00:07:45   Now there's a lot of ways in which I can bring it back to the office in an indirect way.

00:07:50   For example, a more robust knowledge of JavaScript is going to serve me well when I'm writing

00:07:55   JavaScript for a web browser.

00:07:58   But the likelihood that I'm ever going to be asked to do a node project for work is

00:08:04   virtually non-existent.

00:08:05   And that's a bummer, and that sucks.

00:08:07   And it's not that we don't learn at work, but it's hard when what you're learning is

00:08:12   so far removed from what you're doing day to day.

00:08:16   And I could make, and I think John was making, a pretty solid argument that React, while

00:08:20   yes, it's all a UI, but the mechanisms are so far removed from what Apple does in UI

00:08:25   How do you really apply that if you're a UI kit engineer?

00:08:29   And all this is kind of so discontent and agitation like boy if you're really turned on by these exciting

00:08:36   developments that are happening elsewhere and then you go back to work and realize I

00:08:40   Can't like forget about it direct application of the knowledge like I could do I get to write node

00:08:44   But like I can't even incorporate these ideas into my work

00:08:47   To the degree that I think I should be able to like we get some idea some ideas are small and like yes

00:08:52   I can apply them to what I'm actually doing in this new UI kit framework

00:08:54   But some ideas are large and it's like this idea only makes sense at the scale of like

00:08:58   How is the API designed?

00:09:01   How is what is the model of UI interaction and like the model of react is just so much different than the model of UI

00:09:06   Kit, it's such a such a big idea that you know

00:09:10   It's like structure not like details that how do you apply that if you're not going to say I'm gonna make some whole new

00:09:16   You know UI paradigm and then that's not just not something you get to do

00:09:19   Yeah

00:09:21   All right, do we want to do a quick word from a friend and then we can talk about some car-related stuff?

00:09:29   Our first sponsor this week is our friends once again at Cards Against Humanity

00:09:35   Now last last time they sponsored us they sent John a toaster to review instead of doing a typical ad read

00:09:43   I actually have no ad copy for them. They didn't give me any so

00:09:46   This week they have sent John another toaster

00:09:51   John what did you think of your current toaster?

00:09:53   All right, no no context of this one if you want to know why the hell I'm talking about toasters listen to the last episode

00:09:59   This toaster is the Panasonic nbg

00:10:02   110p great names

00:10:05   When I haven't listened to my old hypercritical toaster episode in a long time so but my recollection is that

00:10:14   Part something that I talked about on the show was the idea that I had seen toasters that

00:10:20   seem to use different technology to

00:10:23   To heat the food and I was like boy. This is great

00:10:26   I bet these are gonna heat up faster and heat more evenly and pretty soon all toasters will be like this

00:10:31   And but when I went to go buy toasters, I looked around I didn't see any high-tech toasters

00:10:35   Like maybe I was just imagining it that was just a fad in the 80s or 90s

00:10:39   I just forgot about it, but all the toasters were back to the same old, you know

00:10:42   Designs that I'd seen in the past. Well, this Panasonic toaster is very close to those sort of futuristic

00:10:48   You know advanced toasters that I was thinking of that

00:10:51   I thought all toasters would be like it has a heating element on the bottom

00:10:54   It looks sort of normal

00:10:55   But it's got a heating element two heating elements on the top one of which is near infrared and one of which is far infrared

00:11:01   One of them someone in the chat room tell me which is which I'm assuming it's the near gives off lots of visible light

00:11:08   So it's almost like the toaster has a big light inside it, but that's actually part of the heating element

00:11:12   Anyway, bottom line is this thing makes toast really fast

00:11:16   It was like a minute and 30 seconds faster than my big expensive toaster.

00:11:20   Wow.

00:11:21   And that's like double the speed, right?

00:11:23   And it was fairly even.

00:11:24   There's only one element on the bottom and two elements on the top.

00:11:26   So if you put four slices of toast in there, it's not quite as good as having two elements heating them.

00:11:31   But wow, is it definitely fast.

00:11:33   Is that faster than a slot toaster at making toast?

00:11:35   Because that's one of the advantages that the slot toaster people usually cite is that slot toasters apparently make toast faster.

00:11:41   Maybe. I don't know. I don't have one to time it against.

00:11:43   I just timed it against my other toaster.

00:11:45   But in other respects this toaster is weird like you as you expect from a toaster made by Panasonic

00:11:51   Which is not sort of a kitchen appliance brand at least not in this country like it's very vertical and upright

00:11:57   The controls are below the door instead of to the side

00:12:00   So it's like saving horizontal counter space the cord comes out of the front right corner of the toaster

00:12:04   I don't understand this design. Maybe it's meant to be tucked into something, but I don't think you're supposed to put it

00:12:10   You know have walls close to it. It's it's very confusing

00:12:14   um, and like it's got a power button on it. Have you ever seen a toaster with a power button? Not

00:12:19   like a power button to turn on to toast food, but a power button as in now the toaster is on,

00:12:23   now you can use the controls that are on the toaster. Like it, you know, it's on and off.

00:12:28   And so you need either, you either need to remember to turn it off or maybe you don't

00:12:32   remember to turn it on. I don't know. It was like, it does it have parasitic power loss?

00:12:35   If you don't turn the power off, it's very strange. And the controls in the front,

00:12:38   this is big on having presets where it's like, instead of, it does have controls for temperature

00:12:43   and controls for time, all of which are digital, and the temperature settings are like five

00:12:47   or six little different settings that you can set and you don't have to do each time.

00:12:50   But it also has buttons for various types of food. And if I had to guess what these,

00:12:56   you know, what kind of buttons you would have on a toaster, there are six of them, I would

00:12:59   not have guessed. The first one is toast. Fine, I guessed that one. Second one is waffle.

00:13:04   Frozen waffle. Yeah, Eggos. The third button is a roll, and it also says reheat. So I guess

00:13:10   your reheating rolls. The fourth one is frozen pizza. Fifth one is quick reheat

00:13:15   and it shows a chicken leg. And the last one is hash brown and it shows frozen.

00:13:20   Bread, waffle, roll, pizza, chicken, hash brown. Like I don't... these buttons confuse me.

00:13:27   I feel like if they were just gone and you just had to use the normal

00:13:30   controls that would be better. But anyway this is a very interesting toaster.

00:13:34   I think this was the sweet home pick for the best toaster. It toast bread really

00:13:37   fast, it's kind of small, you can't fit four full-size pieces of bread into it,

00:13:42   the tray does slide out when you open the door, it has a lot of things to

00:13:46   recommend that it's not bad but it's it's pretty darn weird. It seems like it

00:13:50   might be, do you think it would be a fair pick if you had, like you do, concerns

00:13:55   about counter space usage? It's very high though and like the thing is I'll give

00:14:00   up, like it's just about like half an inch or an inch too narrow to put two

00:14:04   slices of bread side by side in it and it's frustrating you know like if you

00:14:07   try to put it says a four slice toaster but you gotta have some pretty darn

00:14:10   small bread you cannot get four and it's frustrating when you get something

00:14:14   that's like just a little bit like because you can fit them in there if you

00:14:17   kind of wedge it and smush them together and that that just doesn't feel

00:14:21   comfortable so I wouldn't sacrifice I would I would give up that extra inch of

00:14:26   counter space easily just be able to fit four slices of toast in it but can't

00:14:29   argue with speed super fast the bread slice count that a toaster advertises

00:14:34   that can toast at once.

00:14:35   It's kind of like the number of people

00:14:37   that tents advertise they can sleep.

00:14:39   - Sleeps four hobbits.

00:14:41   - Like you basically always have to like add two.

00:14:44   - Yeah.

00:14:45   - John, how do you think this toaster ranks

00:14:47   among the other now two that you have?

00:14:50   - It's tough because it has a lot of things

00:14:52   to recommend it over the previous toaster,

00:14:53   but the previous toaster is just so much more normal.

00:14:56   Like it's slower, but I think that the previous one

00:14:59   did a better job at four slices of bread.

00:15:00   It actually fit four slices.

00:15:02   it seemed to heat them more evenly.

00:15:04   The controls were definitely more conventional.

00:15:07   I would probably pick this weird, crazy, fancy toaster

00:15:09   over the previous one,

00:15:10   just because at least it has some headline advantages.

00:15:13   The other one is like, just does everything okay.

00:15:16   I think I would, I don't know, it's a tough choice.

00:15:18   I think I would probably just keep wedging the bread

00:15:22   in there and just be happy that it toasts really fast.

00:15:24   As opposed to the other one, which is just kind of like,

00:15:27   you know, the dials and all that business,

00:15:29   this one doesn't have the dial problem.

00:15:30   You set the, you only have like six settings to set it,

00:15:32   but once you find out which of those six settings

00:15:34   works best for your bread, you don't have to change it.

00:15:36   You just hit the power button, hit toast.

00:15:38   I think I'd go with the fancy one,

00:15:39   although I would have complaints about it all the time.

00:15:43   - You?

00:15:44   (laughing)

00:15:44   - Unlike my fancy toaster,

00:15:46   which the only complaint I have about it

00:15:47   is the stupid spring in the door,

00:15:48   which apparently is only on my particular unit.

00:15:51   (laughing)

00:15:52   - Nice.

00:15:53   - All right, well, thanks a lot to Cards Against Humanity

00:15:55   for sponsoring our show.

00:15:56   Once again, check them out, Cards Against Humanity.

00:15:59   - All right, that was, I love this.

00:16:01   I love this series. - This is the best.

00:16:02   This is so good.

00:16:04   I hope it never stops.

00:16:05   - Can all of our sponsors do stuff like this?

00:16:07   - I hope so.

00:16:08   All right, so a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away,

00:16:12   that's a Star Wars reference, Jon.

00:16:14   (laughing)

00:16:17   I can't take myself seriously.

00:16:20   We started a car-themed podcast called "Neutral."

00:16:25   And at first everyone was like,

00:16:27   yay Marco and John are back and there's that other guy and then after a few

00:16:33   episodes they were like yay why are they still talking but all of a sudden like a

00:16:40   Phoenix except not really at all the neutrals kind of coming back from the

00:16:45   dead because here it is on our Apple themed technology show there is

00:16:52   humongous talk these days that Apple might make a car I don't know about

00:16:57   - I don't know about you two,

00:16:58   but I'm feeling pretty darn smug right now.

00:17:00   How about you guys?

00:17:01   - Oh, I'm scared that they're actually gonna do it.

00:17:03   (laughing)

00:17:05   I really don't think they should.

00:17:06   I mean, not knowing anything about

00:17:08   whether any of these rumors are credible.

00:17:10   I mean, to me, there's so many reasons

00:17:13   why this might be a terrible idea.

00:17:15   - Well, let's look at the sourcing here.

00:17:16   Let's see where, you know,

00:17:18   I have put a bunch of links in there.

00:17:19   Who is saying that Apple is doing anything

00:17:22   having to do with cars?

00:17:23   - Well, 9to5Mac.

00:17:25   - Right, so a 9to5Mac says something,

00:17:26   They talk about who they hired.

00:17:27   Hired the head of Mercedes Benz R&D.

00:17:29   I think he did like the interactive,

00:17:32   like the, you know, the screen type stuff

00:17:33   inside Mercedes Benz and their R&D thing.

00:17:36   It's like, all right, whatever.

00:17:37   Like, I mean, we know they have carplay.

00:17:40   That's not like a secret.

00:17:41   And you hired a guy who does the carplay-ish stuff

00:17:44   for Mercedes Benz, fine.

00:17:45   And it's on 9to5Mac.

00:17:46   It's probably credible.

00:17:47   This probably happened,

00:17:48   but it doesn't make us freak out too much.

00:17:50   - But then the Wall Street Journal

00:17:52   weighs in on the whole issue.

00:17:54   - Yeah, then the Wall Street Journal posted this big thing

00:17:56   that is pretty unequivocal.

00:17:58   Like the Wall Street Journal is not a rumor site

00:18:00   and their record, the track record for Apple is pretty good.

00:18:04   They tend to get a lot of these sort of what we assume

00:18:06   are controlled leaks and stuff.

00:18:08   But this was like, what was the title?

00:18:10   Apple gears up to challenge Tesla in electric cars.

00:18:12   And it's a big long article and it's talking all about

00:18:16   that they're secretly working, hundreds of employees

00:18:19   are secretly working, creating an Apple branded

00:18:22   electric car and that lots of important people

00:18:25   on the project and it was started a year ago and they've got engineers from Ford working

00:18:31   on it and the person who's making it was given permission to create a thousand person team

00:18:36   and to poach employees for different parts of the company.

00:18:38   All the same things that Apple kind of, you know, like when the iPhone was made with Forstol

00:18:42   going around and snagging all the good engineers from other parts of the company saying, "Do

00:18:46   you want to come work on our secret project?" or whatever.

00:18:49   An Apple spokesman declined to comment.

00:18:51   - Yeah, so we're not saying this is 100% slam dunk,

00:18:55   but suddenly you start to notice.

00:18:58   I had not been taking any of this Apple

00:18:59   and make a car stuff seriously at all,

00:19:01   because there are just so many reasons, like Marco said,

00:19:03   for Apple to hire all these car-related people.

00:19:06   They have CarPlay, that explains almost any car hire.

00:19:09   - I don't know about that.

00:19:10   I mean, CarPlay is really a very small move

00:19:14   in the grand scheme of things.

00:19:16   It's not a big initiative, as far as we can tell so far

00:19:19   from what we see on the outside.

00:19:21   And I should clarify, so I did,

00:19:23   my app is CarPlay compatible,

00:19:25   but none of what I'm saying is informed

00:19:28   by any inside knowledge of that.

00:19:29   I don't have any inside knowledge of that.

00:19:31   So, you know, CarPlay is a very small project

00:19:36   that as far as I can tell is having a very slow start.

00:19:39   It's used by very few cars, it's used by very few people,

00:19:44   it's used by very few apps,

00:19:45   and among the cars and people and apps

00:19:48   that are used with CarPlay, it usually gets mixed reviews.

00:19:53   And I don't know if it's the fault of the head units

00:19:56   or the controls or the software, I have no idea.

00:19:58   But it seems like a pretty tiny hobby project.

00:20:02   So I don't think they would be hiring allegedly hundreds

00:20:05   of people making the giant secret research lab

00:20:08   just to make the next version of CarPlay.

00:20:11   I don't think that's plausible.

00:20:12   - That's the information we can't confirm.

00:20:14   We can confirm things more or less

00:20:16   of who was hired to work at Apple.

00:20:17   And those are the confirmed facts of this case

00:20:20   that you can actually check on and like,

00:20:25   they hired the guy from Mercedes-Benz R&D.

00:20:29   Maybe they hired some guy from Ford,

00:20:31   you can figure that out as well, right?

00:20:32   But you can't confirm hundreds of people

00:20:34   being moved from division A to division B,

00:20:36   you know what I mean?

00:20:37   Like that's all just kind of rumors and stuff.

00:20:39   So what I'm saying is like all of the news

00:20:41   about a particular executive

00:20:42   or a particular hire of an important,

00:20:44   if we hear about Apple hiring somebody,

00:20:46   they're probably an important person.

00:20:47   and those are in the ones and twos.

00:20:49   And CarPlay totally explains any of those hires, right?

00:20:52   What it can explain, like you said, is,

00:20:54   if they really are, have hundreds or thousands of people

00:20:57   off in some off-site location working on a big project,

00:21:00   that doesn't seem like CarPlay in its current form.

00:21:02   But it could be many other things,

00:21:04   like helping to make, you know,

00:21:07   design the entire interior and interface of a car

00:21:10   that they don't happen to make.

00:21:11   That would be a significant undertaking

00:21:12   that would require lots of people

00:21:14   partnering with a specific car maker.

00:21:16   Oh, and by the way, mixed in with all this

00:21:18   are the stories from earlier months ago

00:21:22   of like Tesla's hiring away all the Apple employees

00:21:25   and going in both directions.

00:21:28   Tesla's hiring away Apple employees,

00:21:30   which kind of makes sense to me when I read those stories.

00:21:33   It's like, well, yeah,

00:21:35   who wouldn't want to go work for Tesla?

00:21:36   And it's kind of a shame

00:21:37   because what immediately popped into my mind

00:21:39   is Elon Musk walking through a garden

00:21:42   with some Apple engineer and saying,

00:21:43   "Do you want to sell sugar phones for the rest of your life

00:21:45   You're gonna come with me and change the world.

00:21:47   - Casey, that's a reference by the way.

00:21:50   - Yeah, 'cause like, the shoe's on the other foot now.

00:21:52   It's like, well, what's more exciting?

00:21:55   Like revolutionizing the world of cars with electric cars

00:21:58   or doing what Apple's doing?

00:22:00   And maybe it's closer, maybe it's a toss up,

00:22:02   but certainly not Apple versus Pepsi.

00:22:04   But I can imagine it not being very difficult

00:22:09   for Tesla to hire away Apple employees who are car nuts

00:22:12   because you don't get to work on cars at Apple, right?

00:22:14   Or do you?

00:22:17   And then the other rumor is that Apple tried to buy Tesla.

00:22:21   Again, fairly unsubstantiated.

00:22:23   Some people predicting that Apple will buy Tesla.

00:22:25   Some people predicting they already did try them.

00:22:27   But every time you read something like that,

00:22:28   it's like, yeah, yeah, it's easy to write that story.

00:22:30   But there are so many things that we have had retroactively

00:22:33   confirmed about Apple trying to buy companies that refused them

00:22:37   or considered buying companies and didn't like--

00:22:41   or like trying to buy Dropbox and not

00:22:44   really buying Dropbox and they're dalliance with Tom way back in the day,

00:22:48   people can remember that, like these are not, the best thing about all these

00:22:52   stories is they are not entirely unplausible. These rumors, they don't, I

00:22:59   don't think any of us 100% believe any of these because the evidence is not

00:23:03   that are supported, but all of us get to the point where we're willing to

00:23:05   entertain the thought, right? One of the reasons why I never thought Apple would

00:23:10   make a TV set, which I've talked about a few times here before, is that the TV set

00:23:15   business is just kind of a messy business. It's a very, very big commodity business,

00:23:23   supply chain business, but not in a way that leads to a lot of profit usually, unlike the

00:23:28   phone business and their computer business. And it's also not an item that is frequently

00:23:34   updated and upgraded.

00:23:36   Typically people buy TVs every decade or whatever.

00:23:39   It's not like a every couple of years kind of thing like a phone or a computer.

00:23:43   And there's not a lot of ways an Apple TV, from whatever we know today TV world to be,

00:23:51   there's not really a lot of ways an Apple TV could really meaningfully differentiate

00:23:55   itself from what the current little Apple TV puck box for a hundred bucks does or what

00:24:02   another one could do.

00:24:04   So it seems like getting into the TV set business is not only unnecessary, because they can

00:24:10   get all the value they need out of just making a box, but also probably not wise.

00:24:15   Because it's kind of a messy business.

00:24:18   Well, talk about a messy business, how about the car business?

00:24:22   I mean the car business is not only extraordinarily expensive to get started and to run, and of

00:24:28   course Apple has the cash.

00:24:30   if they wanted to build a car factory and design cars,

00:24:34   they could.

00:24:35   Whether they should and whether they would

00:24:38   is a very different story,

00:24:39   but certainly they have the money.

00:24:41   They could afford to set this up,

00:24:43   even though it is extremely expensive.

00:24:45   The big problem I see with it though is that,

00:24:48   like the television business,

00:24:50   the car business is just really kinda messy.

00:24:53   Apple doesn't really get into a lot of those

00:24:55   messy businesses that often.

00:24:57   - Cell phones are pretty messy.

00:24:59   they were never a cell phone carrier, for instance.

00:25:02   — I know, they tried to be, though.

00:25:04   That was their first instinct, to say, "carriers suck.

00:25:06   Can we do a phone without involving carriers?"

00:25:08   And they pursued that, right?

00:25:10   And they just determined, "No, you can't be.

00:25:13   We need the carriers," right?

00:25:15   It's the type of — I know it's not a business

00:25:19   that they like to be in, but there are businesses

00:25:23   that have been messy until Apple entered them

00:25:26   and sort of clarified the thing.

00:25:27   And when I look at this whole situation here,

00:25:31   I think to myself, who is the apple of the car business?

00:25:35   Either one of you two?

00:25:37   - I would argue BMW, but I am hugely biased.

00:25:40   - BMW, are you crazy?

00:25:42   - I mean, I would say there isn't one.

00:25:44   I mean, there is, I mean, just as car analogies

00:25:47   are often used and frequently misused

00:25:49   in tech discussions and debates,

00:25:51   I think that in this massive car analogy,

00:25:55   There is no equivalent. There is no fair point. I mean, I think there's a hundred percent

00:25:59   There's an apple of the car business and it's Tesla

00:26:01   The reason it's Tesla is not so much for anything like oh because they have a big tablet on the dashboard

00:26:06   They're the apple of the car business

00:26:07   No

00:26:07   They're the apple of the car business because at time for Johnny I have to come out they

00:26:11   Reimagined what the car could be and they took out all the crap in the car like they're even getting rid of hydraulic brakes

00:26:16   It's like there's nothing go see a Tesla Model S. There's no car there

00:26:21   There is no car inside that car like you look around in it and like there's a big cavernous thing

00:26:25   trunk in the back and it has seats that go in it.

00:26:27   And what's in the front?

00:26:28   There's a big cavernous thing where you put,

00:26:29   it's like, where the hell is the car?

00:26:31   And in the interior, there's no, yes, like,

00:26:33   and there's the massive simplification of the car.

00:26:36   Like, they're talking about how many parts a car has.

00:26:37   A lot of these things are like, you know,

00:26:39   there's 10,000 components retired to make a car or whatever.

00:26:41   Like, the number of parts in a Tesla

00:26:45   compared to the number of parts

00:26:46   on an internal combustion engine alone,

00:26:47   let alone the entire car surrounding it,

00:26:49   is just night and day.

00:26:50   And so that's the type of simplification,

00:26:52   not that Tesla invented the electric car.

00:26:54   Like obviously, you know, this is another reason that I think they like Apple, but that type of simplification of like

00:26:59   We're not just gonna make a car. We're going to

00:27:02   make something that is simpler and better and you know has fewer parts and

00:27:08   less things that can go wrong and different characteristics and thing and people are gonna tell us you can't because of you know

00:27:13   Range problems or you know, like that

00:27:16   It's not it doesn't make nice noises like internal combustion engine all these other things

00:27:20   things but we're gonna do it anyway and the other part that's like Apple is you

00:27:23   know Apple didn't invent the mp3 player the mobile phone or anything else

00:27:26   Tesla did not have the electric car many people have made electric cars before

00:27:30   them and most of them had not been that great like from the GM EV1 way back in

00:27:35   the day with his lead-acid batteries all the way up through all the different

00:27:38   models that are and the hybrids and the things that have gone in between and

00:27:41   Tesla is you know it takes the Apple approach of sort of leading from the top

00:27:45   doing whatever it takes to make a good electric car which turned out to cost

00:27:50   like a hundred grand, right?

00:27:51   But it's, you know, it's the first electric car

00:27:53   that people actually say is a good car.

00:27:55   And that's totally an Apple type of thing to do.

00:27:57   And the whole way that it's made is such a difference

00:28:00   from, you know, dealing with all the internal combustion

00:28:03   and everything, right?

00:28:04   So that makes me think that it's not impossible

00:28:08   for a company to do an Apple like thing to cars.

00:28:11   Tesla shows, of course, how difficult it is

00:28:13   because you have to deal with, you know,

00:28:14   dealer organizations making it so you can't sell your car

00:28:16   in your states and all the crazy government regulations.

00:28:18   and it's not guaranteed that even with all the government subsidies that Tesla's going

00:28:22   to come out on top and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:28:25   But I 100% think Tesla is the apple of cars.

00:28:28   And that's kind of bad for Apple making a car because if it's already an apple of cars,

00:28:32   what the hell is Apple going to do if they can't buy Tesla?

00:28:34   No, no, no.

00:28:35   See, here's the thing.

00:28:36   I know you're wrong that Tesla is the apple of cars.

00:28:40   And the reason you're wrong is because a software update actually made the Tesla faster.

00:28:44   Ooh.

00:28:45   Apple used to do that all the time back in the old days.

00:28:48   Just kidding.

00:28:49   OS X used to get faster with every release and the same hardware.

00:28:52   Those were the days.

00:28:53   Well, it did that by starting off being super slow and crappy.

00:28:57   Tesla didn't start off with it.

00:28:58   They just shaved a couple seconds here and there.

00:29:01   I'm just being silly.

00:29:02   Oh, and we forgot the other rumor involved with the car thing that we talked about at

00:29:05   a previous show.

00:29:06   It was like a minivan spotted with weird stuff on the roof and reportedly Apple self-driving

00:29:10   cars and we talked about that.

00:29:11   So that is very easily explained by Apple doing something like Street View, which we

00:29:14   think they need.

00:29:16   Is Apple interested in self-driving cars?

00:29:19   That's totally an Apple-style simplification.

00:29:21   You don't even need to drive the car, but I think Apple is not as interested in Google

00:29:25   as Google is in that kind of basic research at this point.

00:29:28   Yeah, and for whatever it's worth, the Wall Street Journal article said specifically that

00:29:33   a person familiar with the project said that self-driving cars are not part of Apple's

00:29:36   current plan.

00:29:38   And that's also, I mean, that's for the best.

00:29:40   well do you think Apple does with really complicated academic AI kind of problems? That's not really

00:29:48   their strong point.

00:29:49   And honestly, I think at this point, Apple's ability to make a card, no matter how many

00:29:55   people they hire now, how many hundred engineers they put on it, look how long it took Tesla

00:29:59   to make its first car, with the help of essentially buying lotuses and strapping its batteries

00:30:03   and engines. Apple has a leg up on them in that they have a hoe-jillion dollars, and

00:30:09   helps you along significantly but it takes a long time to build expertise and

00:30:14   even if you can buy expertise it takes a long time to buy expertise and get it

00:30:19   all working together like again I think they could do it but it would be a long

00:30:23   road and if Apple decided that it wants to make a car because it believes cars

00:30:27   can be simplified and can be made better or whatever the obvious move is to buy

00:30:31   Tesla because they've already done so much of that work and their philosophy

00:30:36   of simplification and reimagining the car as something both better and less complex than it was before.

00:30:45   It's totally in line with the type of stuff that Apple does, it's just that Apple doesn't really know anything about cars at this point.

00:30:51   So has there been a time in the past when Apple has taken a product that was basically fully formed and bought the company and made it their own?

00:31:00   I think, like, what was it? Sound Jam became iTunes, is that right?

00:31:03   That worked out well.

00:31:04   That's sort of kind of what I'm talking about.

00:31:07   But if they bought Tesla, don't you imagine they would keep the Tesla brand?

00:31:10   Like they wouldn't make it the Apple car?

00:31:11   Actually, I guess to that end, Beats is probably the obvious answer to my question.

00:31:15   Right.

00:31:16   I mean, they didn't even want to change the brand of the headphone maker.

00:31:19   I would imagine they would keep the Tesla brand.

00:31:21   Yeah, I don't know.

00:31:22   So many things about this just make me really skeptical that these reports are getting the

00:31:28   right big picture.

00:31:29   Like you know, you can pick up bits and pieces of information here and there and you can

00:31:34   say "Oh, well they hired this person who has a car background and it seems like they're

00:31:38   making a big lab."

00:31:39   And all this stuff, you can put together the bits and pieces but I really don't know

00:31:44   if the conclusion is "Well, of course they're building a car."

00:31:48   Because there's so many reasons why that is not an Apple-like business to enter.

00:31:53   And not to say Apple can't change and enter new businesses, that's how progress is made,

00:31:58   but this just doesn't seem like the right business to enter.

00:32:03   I mean, you mess this up, people die.

00:32:07   Like, it's very serious, it's very cumbersome

00:32:10   of a business to enter to be in at all.

00:32:13   It is extremely hyper-competitive.

00:32:16   - Well, I would not call it hyper-competitive.

00:32:19   I would call it, there are large barriers to entry,

00:32:22   which is kind of the opposite of hyper-competitive.

00:32:25   Like the fact that GM is still in business shows that,

00:32:28   how competitive can it really be

00:32:30   where when you go out of business,

00:32:31   the government puts you back into business

00:32:33   and your cars aren't really that great

00:32:34   and your cars do tend to kill people sometimes,

00:32:36   but it'll all work out in the end.

00:32:37   There are high barriers to entry,

00:32:41   but the argument that I see in a lot of places,

00:32:43   like even from the GM executive,

00:32:46   like you would kind of do with the TV business,

00:32:49   the car business is not like a high profit business.

00:32:52   It's low margin, it's difficult.

00:32:53   And I always see people saying that

00:32:55   whether it's about TVs or about cars,

00:32:56   like, well, then why the hell are you even in this business?

00:32:58   You just describe your own business

00:32:59   as pretty darn crappy, right?

00:33:01   But you could describe the PC market the same way.

00:33:03   Oh, it's low margin, it's a race to the bottom,

00:33:05   it's crappy, somehow Apple manages to make money there.

00:33:08   And the phone market in similar ways.

00:33:10   Apple's a big thing, kind of like Tesla at this point,

00:33:13   is we find the most profitable part of the market,

00:33:15   which is usually near the top,

00:33:16   and we make a lot of money in that part.

00:33:18   And maybe we expand down as we're able to,

00:33:20   but I don't think it's impossible for Apple

00:33:24   to make margins on its theoretical car

00:33:27   that would make GM cry,

00:33:29   because the Apple is better at,

00:33:31   because personal Apple's car is gonna be way simpler

00:33:33   than an internal combustion engine car.

00:33:35   Apple already has some of the expertise and contacts

00:33:39   to do the battery stuff.

00:33:40   - They already buy a lot of lithium batteries.

00:33:42   - Yeah, there is definite synergies there,

00:33:45   but I don't entirely buy this story either,

00:33:47   but almost every argument I've seen against it,

00:33:49   and even the TV for that matter,

00:33:51   Apple knows where to get LCDs from.

00:33:53   Apple can stick something inside it.

00:33:54   Is it a low margin business?

00:33:55   Apple's TV wouldn't be low margin.

00:33:58   If Apple makes a TV, it will not be like,

00:34:00   "Oh, we make $2 on every TV."

00:34:01   If Apple makes a car, it will not be a low margin car.

00:34:04   I don't know what the margins on the Model S are,

00:34:06   especially with all the government subsidies

00:34:07   being factored in, but if Apple was making the Model S,

00:34:10   they could make it for less money,

00:34:12   just because you gotta have money to make money.

00:34:14   You gotta have the deals, you gotta have the contracts.

00:34:17   Apple could make the Tesla for less money

00:34:20   than Tesla is making it.

00:34:21   So immediately, the car has higher margins

00:34:24   than it has there.

00:34:24   So all those arguments, again,

00:34:26   don't make, aren't as compelling to me as the idea

00:34:28   of like, that Apple doesn't wanna make cars,

00:34:32   'cause like, why doesn't Apple make boats?

00:34:34   Why don't they make airplanes?

00:34:35   Why don't they sell real estate?

00:34:36   Like, they're, you know, they're a company

00:34:39   that uses technology to make people's lives better,

00:34:41   but at a certain point when you go into like cars,

00:34:43   or constructing buildings,

00:34:45   or opening medical clinics around the country,

00:34:49   these are all things that Apple could do,

00:34:51   but it starts to drift off of the path

00:34:54   of what I picture as a business

00:34:58   that Apple would want to get into.

00:34:59   Just because it involves technology,

00:35:01   everything involves technology at this point.

00:35:02   So I have, this one Wall Street Journal story

00:35:05   made me take it seriously,

00:35:06   but it does not convince me that it's happening.

00:35:08   - Right, 'cause I think what a few people have said

00:35:11   is that they worry about Apple's focus.

00:35:15   If this is true, and if they do end up making a car,

00:35:18   should we be worried about the focus?

00:35:19   And I think one way to look at this is,

00:35:21   you've heard, I'm pretty sure Steve used to say

00:35:24   I know Tim always says this, which is that Apple tends to only, or ideally, the ideal

00:35:31   Apple, maybe not the actual Apple, but the ideal Apple is a company that only enters

00:35:36   markets where they think they can make a really meaningful difference.

00:35:39   But that doesn't help you in here, does it?

00:35:41   Because don't you think they would say, "We can totally make a meaningful difference by

00:35:44   changing the way everybody drives?"

00:35:45   Like, this is totally a meaningful difference.

00:35:48   But from the product side, we already have electric cars.

00:35:52   I know, but they've never really been done right, and Tesla is being choked to death

00:35:56   by the rest of the automotive industry.

00:36:00   I kind of think of Tesla that way, it's like a fledgling little bird.

00:36:03   We all want it to fly, but it's constantly getting beaten down.

00:36:08   It's amazing that it has done as well as it can with government help and everything, but

00:36:13   wouldn't we all feel terrible if Tesla just didn't make it?

00:36:15   Yeah, that would be unfortunate.

00:36:17   We know that they've made a good car.

00:36:19   The Model S is a good car.

00:36:20   I don't care, I mean, yes, it's 100 grand.

00:36:22   It better be a good car, but it is a good car.

00:36:23   It's like the first good electric car.

00:36:25   Like the Roaster didn't even apply that.

00:36:27   It has limitations and so on and so forth.

00:36:28   It's like, wow, someone finally did it.

00:36:30   It's nice to drive, it's attractive.

00:36:33   It's got all the advantages you'd expect from an electric car.

00:36:36   It's really fun.

00:36:37   They did it, right?

00:36:39   And now you just keep, you know,

00:36:41   well, they can make a cheaper one.

00:36:42   They can make a $30,000 model.

00:36:43   They can make an SUV.

00:36:44   You want them to just spool up

00:36:46   and eventually become a real car company.

00:36:47   And if they failed, if they kind of like,

00:36:49   "Oh, we didn't quite make it,

00:36:49   "we're filing for bankruptcy or whatever."

00:36:51   Everyone would be disappointed.

00:36:53   So I think that shows that we want someone to come in

00:36:56   and make a significant difference in the industry.

00:36:59   Whether that has to involve Apple at all, I don't know.

00:37:02   I mean, if we don't wanna, like,

00:37:04   Markham keeps groaning,

00:37:05   'cause he doesn't like the idea of Apple making a car.

00:37:07   But like, you don't think they're gonna be pulling people

00:37:09   off UI kit to work on the car, you know?

00:37:11   Maybe kind of for the interface, but--

00:37:13   - Of course they will.

00:37:14   - But not to the degree that like people got pulled off

00:37:16   OS X to work on UI kit.

00:37:17   Like there are no automotive engineers at Apple

00:37:19   who are gonna get pulled off their current project

00:37:21   to work on the car.

00:37:22   Like automotive engineers are, you know,

00:37:23   that's a different skill set.

00:37:24   A mechanical engineering, you know,

00:37:26   maybe the manufacturing people will be some crossover,

00:37:28   but I feel like it wouldn't be as big

00:37:32   of a focused diversion as many other things

00:37:34   that Apple does do.

00:37:35   So I'm not groaning quite as much about losing focus on,

00:37:39   you know, 'cause I assume they would just hire new people.

00:37:42   Or like I said, they would just buy Tesla.

00:37:43   They come with a bunch of people

00:37:44   who already know how to make cars.

00:37:46   What I was really getting at with the make a meaningful difference thing, think about

00:37:52   it from the buyer's perspective.

00:37:54   If you are buying an Apple car, or let's say right now you're buying a Tesla because

00:37:58   that's the closest thing we have to what we think this might be, the kind of thing

00:38:02   we think this would be.

00:38:03   Probably if you look at what's in the market today it would probably be closest to a Tesla

00:38:07   than any other vehicle.

00:38:09   Maybe a Leaf, but probably closer to a Tesla.

00:38:12   So if you think about that as a driver,

00:38:15   I mean none of us drive electric cars,

00:38:18   so we don't really, maybe this is not the right,

00:38:21   maybe we're not the right people to be

00:38:23   speculating on this part, but is there that much

00:38:26   of a difference when you're driving the car,

00:38:29   when you're owning the car, whether it's electric or gas,

00:38:32   so much so that an Apple car could be radically different

00:38:36   to own and operate and drive than any other car?

00:38:39   Like I don't think the differences are that big.

00:38:41   I think they are like I don't other than the battery which is still a concern

00:38:46   But Tesla has a built-in way to replace and everything like that

00:38:48   The maintenance the maintenance concerns and costs and the number of things that can go wrong

00:38:53   Like there's just less stuff in the damn car. It's electric motors and like once the brakes are electric - yeah

00:38:58   You got to replace brake pads, but like there's no fluids. There's no like, you know, the hydraulic system

00:39:04   It's just there's no oil. There's no gaskets

00:39:07   It's just so much stuff that you have to deal with with car maintenance goes away.

00:39:12   And so I just think that's a different experience of driving a car.

00:39:18   But what can Apple bring to that that Tesla and Nissan and everybody else can't?

00:39:25   That's why I think they should just buy Tesla.

00:39:27   That's the problem.

00:39:29   So what can Apple bring to it that the other companies can't?

00:39:31   Well what they can bring to it is an assured future for Tesla if they buy it, right?

00:39:36   Because if you're worried about Tesla, if they're not going to make it, if they can't

00:39:40   make, you know, $100,000 cars are fine, but if they can't feel the $30,000 model, they're

00:39:44   never going to be a player in the industry because you just have to come down and price

00:39:46   a little bit if you're going to sell, you know, any significant number of cars.

00:39:51   And if Tesla can't get that done on its own, Apple can make sure that that happens.

00:39:55   Yeah, that's a pretty weak argument though.

00:39:58   And obviously they would make the UI and the interface inside it much better than it is

00:40:02   now.

00:40:03   Hopefully, I mean, there are areas for simplification in the interior of a car that you would hope,

00:40:08   I mean, maybe not today's Apple, we've all lost faith in their ability to make decent

00:40:11   interfaces, but the Apple of old you would imagine could simplify the interior of the

00:40:16   car in the same way that the iPad simplified the music player and the iPhone simplified

00:40:19   the phone interface.

00:40:20   And again, maybe you could say Tesla already did that by putting a big iPad in the dashboard,

00:40:24   but I don't know.

00:40:25   I don't think Apple would be bringing as much to this as they brought to obviously as they brought to phones or anything like that

00:40:32   but

00:40:33   Like is that the question they're asking themselves like if you know

00:40:37   Tesla looks like they've already done a lot of the work so we shouldn't even bother maybe I don't know I keep coming back to

00:40:43   What's in it for Apple, and I think we've been dancing around that question

00:40:47   you know this entire discussion and what is it that that

00:40:52   Doing a car would would serve for Apple now. Maybe it would keep your engineers entertained

00:40:58   We've talked on and off about how the worst reason well

00:41:01   I'm not saying it's a good reason but your engineers would kill themselves to keep your designers entertained

00:41:05   Maybe whatever the case may be I mean we've talked about talent retention here and there over the years

00:41:09   And you know that would theoretically retain talent

00:41:13   But of course I'm also assuming that every nerd is also a car nut and that could not be further from the truth

00:41:18   The only other thing I can think of is what if there's some sort of technology that Apple has invented or

00:41:24   Figured out how to leverage in such a way that it lends itself

00:41:28   To a vehicle rather than to a piece of electronics what I'm thinking of is you know the click wheel

00:41:34   Made the iPod in many ways made the iPod the iPod Phil Schiller game well for that though click steering yeah exactly

00:41:42   It's different that like so give me what's an example?

00:41:46   technology hypothetical that you can imagine this being the case for so so to finish my thought just very quickly you know multi-touch

00:41:51   Yeah, it wasn't new but it was leveraged differently and and there are a couple other examples

00:41:55   I don't that I can't think of off the top of my head

00:41:57   But what if they had some crazy new battery technology and the reason it's not in iOS devices right now or or?

00:42:04   MacBooks right now is because it's just too freaking big you know maybe these batteries are

00:42:09   Hugely hugely hugely efficient they can charge in 12 seconds

00:42:14   But unfortunately, they're just freaking massive.

00:42:18   And so the only thing that this is really good for

00:42:22   is an electric vehicle.

00:42:24   Granted, this is all hugely hypothetical,

00:42:26   but in that case,

00:42:27   maybe they would have something to contribute.

00:42:30   And that seems to me to be the kind of thing

00:42:33   that would make Apple say,

00:42:35   "Well, maybe we should give this a shot."

00:42:37   Some sort of either different and interesting application

00:42:41   of an existing technology, or even better,

00:42:43   some sort of brand new technology that for whatever reason they just can't shoehorn into

00:42:49   a iPad or an iPhone or a MacBook Air or MacBook Pro or whatever.

00:42:53   You're thinking of Mr. Fusion aren't you?

00:42:56   That or a flux capacitor yeah.

00:42:57   Yeah the chat room had that one yeah but that's that is perhaps the least Apple like thing

00:43:01   that that we could possibly think of.

00:43:04   Like Google does tries to do basic research and even they don't do this type of thing.

00:43:08   There is no secret battery breakthrough technology that Apple has that only works with big batteries.

00:43:12   If anyone's going to come up with that, it's going to be a university, theoretical physicist.

00:43:20   First what's going to happen is the basic research is going to say that something is

00:43:23   potentially possible, and then a bunch of people are going to try to do it.

00:43:26   The first person to pull it off is probably not going to be ... Apple just doesn't do

00:43:29   that kind of basic research.

00:43:32   I don't think that's going to change about the company.

00:43:34   This is not the way they work.

00:43:36   What does it say?

00:43:37   Google outspends them in basic R&D by some big multiple, and Google is not compared to

00:43:41   to like, you know, the real basic research going on

00:43:44   in the fields of science and engineering,

00:43:47   Google self-driving cars are, you know,

00:43:50   not a drop in the bucket compared to people

00:43:53   who are trying to, spending like just years and years

00:43:55   working on whatever carbon nano two battery technology

00:43:57   type stuff like that, that stuff's gonna come.

00:44:00   And when it's, you know, Apple always grabs the stuff

00:44:02   that's just at the edge of what's possible

00:44:04   and they apply their engineering

00:44:05   and manufacturing expertise to bring it to existence.

00:44:07   But I don't think that Apple has anything like that

00:44:10   for batteries, like for something else,

00:44:13   maybe they have a really good idea about the interface

00:44:16   of a car, but there are a lot of limitations

00:44:18   on the interface of a car because people are kind of used

00:44:20   to what it is and there's government regulations

00:44:22   saying how it has to be.

00:44:23   - I also don't think I want Apple making the interface

00:44:27   to my car because there's, I mean,

00:44:29   for many of the same reasons, you know,

00:44:30   we discussed early on a neutral, which nobody listened to,

00:44:34   we discussed our feelings on touch screens

00:44:36   versus knobs and buttons versus a combination of the two.

00:44:40   And I think where we all came down is we actually don't like the Tesla approach of everything's

00:44:46   on the touchscreen.

00:44:48   I like knobs and buttons for all the controls that are necessary in my car for basic operations.

00:44:54   Things like the ventilation controls and anything that's on the center console that's not like

00:45:00   the navigation screen, I want knobs and buttons for.

00:45:03   And even the navigation screen, I don't want a touchscreen because the ones I've seen and

00:45:06   used have been terrible.

00:45:07   I want like the wheel, the iDrive wheel that BMWs have is great.

00:45:13   The Audi has a somewhat similar one.

00:45:15   Toyota and Lexus have a really weird terrible pointing stick system that's just awful and

00:45:20   I've seen many other hideous systems from other brands.

00:45:23   But for the most part I want knobs and buttons because what you need in a car for both safety,

00:45:31   especially number one safety, and also for just reduced annoyance, you need that button

00:45:37   to work every time.

00:45:39   You need to respond within the same amount of time every time.

00:45:43   Because what you don't need to be doing in a car, and what you shouldn't be doing in

00:45:46   a car, is having to check up on the state of what you think you just did to make sure

00:45:51   it took, or to reissue a command that the car misinterpreted.

00:45:57   And if you look at Apple's current software designs and systems and styles and just the

00:46:01   standards by which they hold themselves in reality, what we get from them in practice,

00:46:07   It's not that solid.

00:46:08   There are parts of it that are, like the kernel is pretty good these days, but the UIs, all

00:46:14   the stuff sitting on top, the services and everything, these are not...

00:46:19   This requires a very different degree of reliability than what consumer software for computers

00:46:26   and tablets and phones really requires.

00:46:29   The things in cars need to work every time.

00:46:33   If they miss just a little bit, if it's just a little bit buggy or a little bit slow or

00:46:37   a little bit inconsistent, it's really annoying and potentially very unsafe.

00:46:42   And so I don't think I would want Apple making that kind of software in my car, at least

00:46:46   as we know them today.

00:46:47   And maybe they can do that in the future, but I'd be very worried if they did it today.

00:46:50   Don't you think the Apple Watch is reassuring in this regard, though?

00:46:53   Because what mostly you're talking about is like what they did with the phone is they

00:46:56   made it all screen because they realized that the buttons were limiting and really the number

00:47:01   of interesting things you can do with the phone when it's just all screen just expand

00:47:04   greatly it becomes a general purpose computing device.

00:47:06   Whereas on the watch they made a slightly different decision, yeah it's all screen because

00:47:10   they expect similar type of things but the little digital crown thing and the button

00:47:13   on the side acknowledge that in this application it's not just about oh I can make this a general

00:47:19   purpose computing device because it's so darn small.

00:47:22   So other aspects like quick access and reliable use of you know like why don't I just make

00:47:27   people pinch on the screen well it's a different context here they're not afraid to make it

00:47:31   You know the highlight feature of their watch user interface to be a knob essentially

00:47:35   I would imagine if Apple had to take on a car like what you're what you're envisioning is like boy if Apple made a car

00:47:41   It would look like just a big giant iPad in the middle of the - that's essentially what Tesla did

00:47:45   I would hope that if Apple did a car they would recognize that this context is also different than the mobile phone

00:47:50   Context and that what's appropriate on a mobile phone making you just a giant screen

00:47:55   Would also not be appropriate here, so it would have not that it would have a digital crown

00:48:00   but that they would have knobs and buttons and stuff on it and they would not be entirely screen

00:48:04   I expect a big screen to be featured heavily

00:48:06   But I would not be surprised if an Apple designed car interior had more knobs and buttons than a Tesla one does

00:48:11   All right, so let's put this in the parking lot. I couldn't even say with a straight face

00:48:17   I tried so hard to get it out the straight face. Let's put this aside for a second and let's talk about something else

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00:50:48   - So let's assume for the sake of conversation

00:50:50   that CarPlay doesn't exist.

00:50:52   - It basically doesn't.

00:50:53   - Hey-o, God, the two of us are harsh today.

00:50:56   - No, I'm just, it hasn't gone very far.

00:50:58   Maybe it will in the future,

00:51:00   but right now it really has not gone very far.

00:51:02   - Yeah, and that's a fair point.

00:51:03   So if we take it that CarPlay

00:51:06   either doesn't exist or barely exists,

00:51:08   wouldn't it make the most sense

00:51:10   that all of these hires and all of this activity

00:51:13   is probably about making what we call carplay today.

00:51:18   I mean, that just seems the most obvious to me.

00:51:20   The thought of actually constructing an automobile

00:51:23   seems kind of crazy to me.

00:51:26   - Yeah, partnering, like if Apple is interested in cars,

00:51:29   partnering with a car manufacturer

00:51:31   just to do what we talked about back in Neutrals,

00:51:33   like these car makers all want to do it themselves.

00:51:36   They want to be like,

00:51:36   "Oh, we have our internal design group

00:51:38   that does all our Ford interiors

00:51:40   with the new, my Ford touch, whatever."

00:51:43   They want to do it themselves as a point of pride,

00:51:45   but they're terrible at it

00:51:46   because they don't have much experience.

00:51:47   Cars used to not be about software.

00:51:48   And then seemingly overnight,

00:51:51   big cars came about software.

00:51:52   First, the engines were about software,

00:51:53   but they were like, "Oh, it's not visible.

00:51:54   "It's not user interface."

00:51:56   So all of a sudden our engines

00:51:57   all have 20 computers in them.

00:51:59   They seem to make that transition okay.

00:52:01   But when it came to make human computer interfaces

00:52:04   inside the cars, they have not done well

00:52:07   and they haven't been able to attract that expertise.

00:52:09   So we're always looking like,

00:52:10   if you could just bring someone in from the outside,

00:52:12   Like let Apple do your interior,

00:52:13   but no car maker wants to let some computer company

00:52:16   come in and design that they want.

00:52:18   It's like BMW or whatever.

00:52:19   It's like, it's a point of pride.

00:52:20   We make the interiors and they just keep trying

00:52:22   and they refine them and they get better at them.

00:52:25   But I imagine if your Apple and all the people at Apple,

00:52:29   including the big fancy executives who make the decisions,

00:52:32   drive super expensive cars and kind of like

00:52:34   how all the executives had super expensive cell phones,

00:52:36   but still thought they were all crap,

00:52:38   I bet a lot of those executives of similar tastes

00:52:40   drive to work in their 100, $200,000 cars

00:52:43   and say, "Boy, the interior and interface of this car

00:52:45   is terrible and like, this is the best car you could buy.

00:52:47   Like I'm, it's not because it's a cheap car.

00:52:50   Like I'm rich, I have a lot of money.

00:52:52   I still have to use a crappy cell phone

00:52:54   and deal with my crappy TV set

00:52:57   and drive a car that I love everything about

00:52:59   except for the user interface and the interior."

00:53:01   Right?

00:53:02   And so the channeling that frustration would be like,

00:53:06   You know, can't we work with BMW, Mercedes, Porsche,

00:53:11   Honda, hell anybody, will anybody let us like work

00:53:13   with them at the level we wanna work with them and say,

00:53:16   we own the interior user interface of your car.

00:53:18   You do the engine, you do the car, you do the structure,

00:53:20   you do the suspension, you do everything else,

00:53:22   but we own how you turn the windshield wipers on,

00:53:24   how you adjust the radio, how you call someone

00:53:26   on a cell phone from your car.

00:53:27   Like let us do all that for you.

00:53:29   And so far, no car, if Apple has made those overtures,

00:53:33   no car manufacturer has taken them up on the deal.

00:53:35   And again, I don't blame them because if I was a car maker,

00:53:37   I'd be like, "F you, what you're basically doing

00:53:40   is cutting us out at the knees and saying,

00:53:41   you're half a car maker now.

00:53:43   We're the important, you know,

00:53:44   please Apple come in and become the most valuable

00:53:46   differentiator of our car line,

00:53:48   relegating us to a mere manufacturer

00:53:50   of a drive train and body shop."

00:53:53   Nobody wants to do that, right?

00:53:55   But I can imagine Apple wanting to do that.

00:53:57   And maybe that's plan A and plan B is,

00:53:59   well, can't we just buy Tesla?

00:54:00   And plan C is, we'll just make our own damn car.

00:54:03   And that's a hell of an extrapolation of the order of events.

00:54:07   And I don't know what kind of gaps there are between plan A, B, and C,

00:54:09   but plan A sounds plausible that Apple would want to be more involved in the

00:54:14   interior of a car. And CarPlay is like the weakest,

00:54:18   most piddling little attempt to get Apple anything inside a car.

00:54:21   Yeah, that's exactly what I was driving at.

00:54:23   And I come back to maybe, you know,

00:54:27   when we started this conversation, one of you, I think John had asked, well,

00:54:31   Who is the apple of cars?

00:54:33   And maybe the better question is, who's the AT&T?

00:54:37   Who is the most beleaguered?

00:54:38   Who is the most desperate?

00:54:40   Who is the most willing to let Apple just saunter in?

00:54:44   - I think you mean singular.

00:54:45   - Actually, you're right.

00:54:46   I'm sorry, that's very true.

00:54:47   I do mean singular.

00:54:48   So who is the most desperate and most willing

00:54:51   to let Apple just waltz in and kind of take over the show?

00:54:56   And I don't know who that is today.

00:54:59   - Alpha Romeo.

00:54:59   - Oh, wait, let's try again.

00:55:01   Everyone's already owned by somebody else.

00:55:04   Like any beleaguered brand, like, you know,

00:55:06   Tata or Fiat already bought them, so who's left?

00:55:10   - I bet you see my point, right?

00:55:11   I mean, who is most willing to do that?

00:55:13   I think Saab before they disappeared,

00:55:16   'cause Saab is dead now, right?

00:55:18   - Yeah, GM bought them, right?

00:55:19   And then--

00:55:20   - And then spun them off, I thought,

00:55:21   or just let them die, one or the other.

00:55:23   - Yeah, Saab is gone.

00:55:24   - So I don't, Saturn, you know?

00:55:26   - No, they're gone too.

00:55:27   What kind of shape is Nissan in?

00:55:30   - I thought they were doing well.

00:55:31   Mitsubishi was hurting last I heard.

00:55:32   - Yeah, Mitsubishi, but they don't offer a good car

00:55:36   to travel to put its stuff inside.

00:55:38   The car is a much more important part of the entire product

00:55:43   than the cell network was for the iPhone, arguably,

00:55:46   even when they picked the bad cell network.

00:55:49   And also, the phone always had sort of like,

00:55:51   if we do well, obviously we'll expand outward.

00:55:54   We won't be AT&T or singular only forever if we're successful.

00:55:56   Whereas if you're successful with a car,

00:55:58   what do you think every car company is gonna be like,

00:56:00   "Oh yeah, totally Apple come and do R."

00:56:02   Like it's not, I don't see a path forward for that.

00:56:05   It's like you just,

00:56:06   either you do something like CarPlay

00:56:08   where you try to get buy-in from,

00:56:09   and this gets, CarPlay could still work.

00:56:11   Like you're not owning the interior,

00:56:13   but every interior has a place where you can put your crap

00:56:16   and some limited integration.

00:56:17   Of course, Android's trying to do the same thing.

00:56:19   Like I think the prospects for CarPlay

00:56:22   are similar for the prospects of,

00:56:25   you buy your TV from someone else

00:56:27   and let us control some part of the interface.

00:56:29   And in practice, that kind of sorta works.

00:56:31   Like that's the puck device category.

00:56:33   Like, well, we don't make your TV.

00:56:35   We don't control the interface.

00:56:36   Those menus you bring up to adjust the picture controls,

00:56:38   we don't control any of that.

00:56:41   We don't control your remote,

00:56:42   but you can attach this box to one of your inputs

00:56:44   and use our own little remote.

00:56:45   And then we sort of take over your TV

00:56:47   for a small period of time.

00:56:48   And it's not great, but it works.

00:56:50   And other people try to do it.

00:56:51   So that's CarPlay, that's the Android car thing or whatever,

00:56:54   But that's not gonna get us to like,

00:56:56   that's not gonna resolve our dissatisfaction

00:56:58   in the same way that doesn't something make us all

00:56:59   love our TVs because we have seven pucks attached to them.

00:57:02   - Well and also it's not a great metaphor

00:57:04   because TVs are kinda just made to be taken over.

00:57:08   Whereas if you wanna properly integrate into a car system

00:57:11   and take over the UI, you need to be integrated

00:57:14   into a lot more, it's a lot more complicated

00:57:16   than just like, oh, there's a giant screen, take it over.

00:57:20   Most cars have multiple displays and gauges

00:57:23   and different control surfaces all over the place

00:57:25   and all sorts of different things you gotta hook into

00:57:27   if you really wanted to take it over.

00:57:29   And over time, it's only gonna get more complicated.

00:57:32   Look at what our fancy cars have.

00:57:33   We have the heads-up displays,

00:57:35   we have cameras in the mirror to look at stuff on the road,

00:57:38   you got sensors all around the car,

00:57:39   you got the navigation screen, you got media controls,

00:57:42   you got navigation itself, you have all these,

00:57:45   the mobile office BS, all these different things.

00:57:48   And the number of systems in cars

00:57:51   that are gonna be integrated into everyday models

00:57:54   is gonna keep going up over time as these things get cheaper.

00:57:58   So the model of what CarPlay is doing now

00:58:03   is always going to be very limited

00:58:06   and is really, if anything, gonna keep being relegated

00:58:09   to a smaller and smaller proportion

00:58:12   of the car's overall smarts and displays.

00:58:15   - But like television, the car interior is under attack

00:58:18   from usurpers from the outside, right?

00:58:20   like automatic as an example,

00:58:22   like a previous sponsor of the podcast

00:58:24   lets you shove a thing into a standard port on your car

00:58:26   and give it a bunch of features that it should have had

00:58:28   and already if car manufacturers knew

00:58:30   what the hell they were doing, but they don't, so use this.

00:58:32   When we all used to have GPS's stuck inside our cars,

00:58:34   when it wasn't on our phones

00:58:37   and when it wasn't built into the cars,

00:58:38   that was an attack from the outside.

00:58:40   Hey, if car makers knew what the hell they were doing,

00:58:41   every car would have GPS built in, but they don't,

00:58:43   so buy this Garmin thing

00:58:44   and suck your cup into your dashboard, right?

00:58:47   Us, everyone connecting iPods to their stereo systems

00:58:49   long before car makers got a clue.

00:58:51   There is a constant assault from outside world

00:58:54   of the faster moving technology sector

00:58:57   to do things that sometimes it's just kind of like

00:59:00   taking advantage of your car hardware,

00:59:02   sometimes it's an entirely separate system like the GPS,

00:59:04   but sometimes like automatic, it's like,

00:59:06   help you find your car in the parking lot.

00:59:08   Why can't you do that already?

00:59:09   'Cause car makers have no idea what they're doing.

00:59:10   Buy this thing and we'll help you do it, right?

00:59:13   And I don't know, that's not,

00:59:14   it's not like they're gonna win,

00:59:15   like they're gonna overwhelm it from the outside

00:59:17   because they can't, and Marco, you're totally right.

00:59:19   like attaching a bunch of these things is like,

00:59:21   it's worse than attaching pucks to IT

00:59:23   'cause like the experience should be entirely integrated.

00:59:26   It should know how fast your car is going,

00:59:27   where you're probably going to,

00:59:29   how much pressure is in the tires,

00:59:30   what the current G-force being pulled is,

00:59:32   whether it's okay to interrupt you with a call

00:59:34   because it knows how you're like total integration.

00:59:37   Like that's, you know, you ask what could Apple add

00:59:39   to the car experience?

00:59:41   If, you know, this is maybe the idealized Apple,

00:59:43   they could add an interface that takes into account

00:59:45   all those things in a way no car maker has

00:59:48   Do it all without relying on a bunch of other stuff that you stick inside the car

00:59:52   Yeah, I think you guys are both right the only thing that um

00:59:57   That makes me doubt you is what if they were to?

01:00:01   Enter into a car into work with a car manufacturer that already has a bus like I think Volkswagen for example

01:00:09   And I'm not talking buses in what the Brits would call a coach. I'm saying a

01:00:13   Service bus and so as an example

01:00:16   I think that Volkswagen has some hilariously named and mildly inappropriate

01:00:22   service bus that all of their different components talk to and I think BMW does the same thing actually and

01:00:29   Presumably most modern car manufacturers do so maybe this isn't really narrowing it down at all

01:00:35   But like my friend Brian had who had a Volkswagen r32

01:00:39   I remember that he had done something I don't recall the specifics

01:00:43   But he had done something with the Volkswagen can bus as I believe what it's called. Thank you Matt Donders in the chat

01:00:49   Where he had like added a gauge or something like that whatever he did

01:00:53   He did something that was possible because basically all of the cars different computers were talking to each other on one common bus

01:01:01   And so if that were the case in say a Volkswagen or BMW or something like that

01:01:05   then maybe they could do something more than just the

01:01:10   Fairly rudimentary carplay implementation they have now maybe they could add gauges not not to say the gauges are really be all end all but

01:01:16   Just as a simple example

01:01:18   You know something like that is possible without presumably too much work if they can just get their selves that get themselves onto the canvas

01:01:24   Yeah, but as soon as anyone does that as soon as Apple pulls into that they're gonna just lock it down

01:01:29   You know because like as John said like the car manufacturers

01:01:33   Kind of don't want someone else to come take over their systems and plug into their systems like they want to control the whole thing

01:01:39   for lots of good reasons, like for themselves,

01:01:43   for their businesses, for safety.

01:01:44   Like there's so many reasons why they're not gonna let

01:01:47   anyone else just plug into their bus and drive all over it.

01:01:50   - It's like, well Microsoft did that with Ford, right?

01:01:53   Weren't they the Ford, My Touch interior thing,

01:01:56   like Microsoft partnered with them?

01:01:58   - Yeah, but that was like two desperate companies.

01:01:59   - Right, well the whole idea is like that it's almost as if

01:02:04   it was to Ford's advantage for that interface

01:02:07   to not be too good.

01:02:08   Because like I said, if the reason people are buying your car is because everybody knows

01:02:12   it's the car with the awesome Apple interface and like you got to check it.

01:02:15   Like if that becomes the value proposition of your car, if it is the differentiator,

01:02:20   you don't like people are buying your car not because of something you did.

01:02:23   You are giving some portion of value and attractiveness inherent in your product and you're giving

01:02:29   the most important portion of that to Apple.

01:02:31   Like it's kind of like that, you know, the cell network, you know, we want the iPhone

01:02:35   Network and turns out that people don't care what network it is

01:02:38   They'll get AT&T if it means they get to have the iPhone the iPhone becomes the most important thing

01:02:42   It's not like oh, this is gonna make people love AT&T. No it's gonna make people love the iPhone

01:02:47   That is the differentiator and that's where the value is and they just want you to be a dumb pipe and now you're sad

01:02:51   Well, but that's exactly what Ford did with the my Ford

01:02:55   Sync or whatever was that which was Microsoft behind the scenes, and they made it clear that it was Microsoft

01:03:00   That was a selling point right, but it wasn't that good and no one was buying

01:03:04   Ford because of the like if all of a sudden people bought forwards because everyone knew that forwards of the cars with the great

01:03:11   interfaces that like they never had that reputation that was that was never the value proposition of a Ford and if it had become one if

01:03:18   It would be like I wasn't gonna buy it for but now everybody tells me like the same reason like I'm not into Apple

01:03:23   But everyone tells me an iPhone is an awesome cell phone, so I'm interested and I'm gonna check it out, right I?

01:03:28   Guess but I mean to take it on its flip side

01:03:31   I feel like I've heard many times that say

01:03:34   Cadillacs navigation interface is just atrociously bad and we talked a long time especially Marco about how awful the Lexus interface is

01:03:42   So yeah, maybe you don't want it to be a selling point, but you certainly don't want it to be a liability either

01:03:46   Yeah, well you're kind of right that it was you know Microsoft desperation, but Ford is actually one of the American car companies that is not

01:03:52   Constantly making terrible cars and being bailed out by the government and like you know if you had to pick

01:03:57   What is what is the best American car maker? I?

01:04:00   Think Ford is a pretty strong case to be made sure forward in terms of both

01:04:04   Financial health of the company and the quality of the vehicles they put out this there's spot exceptions

01:04:09   you can see you can find exceptional cars and you know all the other makers as well, but

01:04:13   Ford overall was it was not the most desperate of all companies

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01:07:19   - All right, anything else on cars?

01:07:21   - Yeah, one more thing, I think.

01:07:23   - We have more than one more thing.

01:07:24   - Well, one more major thing to bring this back down to Earth

01:07:28   now that we're too busy.

01:07:29   - Followed by three weeks of follow-up.

01:07:30   - Too busy speculating about this.

01:07:32   Let's all now assume that Apple is not going to make a car.

01:07:35   But let's assume that these rumors about some large project

01:07:40   at Apple involving cars in some way that is not Street View

01:07:44   and that is not merely an extension of existing carplay exists.

01:07:46   Because if this Wall Street Journal article, like say it gets a bunch of things wrong and

01:07:50   it guesses wrong about what these people are doing, but there really is a large number

01:07:54   of people, Apple's gearing up and how, like Margo said, it seems crazy that these people

01:07:59   would all be working on carplay.

01:08:00   So if they're not making a car, and if it's not about street view, and if it's not carplay,

01:08:05   but it is car related, what the hell is it?

01:08:08   I mean, honestly, I think a street view style project from those little minivans that we've

01:08:13   we've already seen pictures of that, I don't know if we definitely know that they're from

01:08:17   Apple, I think that's kind of vague as to what the connection is, but assume they are.

01:08:22   I think that would be enough to have a big staff and a big lab.

01:08:27   That might be the reason, that might be all this is, because "all this is" is actually

01:08:33   to do a Street View kind of thing is a huge project.

01:08:36   But why would that be in a big building?

01:08:38   It's a lot of data a lot of software to write a lot of a lot of data to manage and people to manage and

01:08:43   A fleet of vehicles to manage. I mean, that's that's a big job. Like there's a reason why

01:08:48   Why only Google has that feature right now?

01:08:51   Like I don't did anybody else ever do a street view like people in the flyover works are not nearly as good

01:08:55   I don't think anyone else did Street View except them right not to my knowledge

01:09:00   So the rumor is like a thousand person team like if they were doing Street View

01:09:03   Which I probably think they are I would imagine this effort to be more distributed like necessarily more

01:09:08   distributed. It's not as if all the cars are leaving from California and coming

01:09:11   back to California. Well it is Apple. It's like all the AOL traffic going through

01:09:15   Virginia. Yeah. I don't know, it just it doesn't seem to like I believe the

01:09:21   street view thing 100% and I suppose that could take maybe a hundred people

01:09:25   but not a thousand and I'm not sure I would hire anyone from a car company to

01:09:30   lead that because that's more of a I would hire someone from like a mapping

01:09:34   company or someone who you know they already has acquisitions from that you

01:09:37   the keyhole or whatever company that gave them their map data.

01:09:43   It doesn't fit with this rumor.

01:09:45   I guess it depends on how much of the Wall Street Journal article you think they got

01:09:49   correct.

01:09:50   I'm willing to believe that they got everything correct except for what these people are doing.

01:09:52   I'm willing to believe that the number of people is right, that their sort of general

01:09:57   location is right, that the people who are leading them are correctly identified, but

01:10:02   they just are guessing wrong about what these people are doing because they're not actually

01:10:05   making a car, they're doing something.

01:10:07   And I'm not sure what that something is.

01:10:10   - I mean, the reality is, like, if you take

01:10:12   these little collection of facts, assuming they're true,

01:10:16   I think making a car is the most likely conclusion

01:10:19   to draw from that.

01:10:21   It's not what I want them to be doing,

01:10:22   it's not what I think they should be doing,

01:10:24   from what I know today.

01:10:25   I mean, this could also, you know,

01:10:28   if you said to people in 2004,

01:10:31   Shappo make a phone, you'd hear from a lot of people

01:10:34   who would say yes and a lot of people who would say, "Well, maybe they should just

01:10:37   really focus on the computers."

01:10:41   I don't know by saying, "I don't think they should really do this.

01:10:46   Maybe they will blow us away."

01:10:47   I don't think that's very likely, just because I think they can make a car that

01:10:52   is designed very well, but I think about if you look at TVs and why—again, I know I

01:11:00   said a lot of this earlier—but if you look at why they don't make a TV, I think one

01:11:03   One of the reasons they don't make a TV is that TVs really have very little interface.

01:11:09   Like the TV itself, like the boxes that plug into it have an interface.

01:11:13   The TV itself has very little interface, really.

01:11:17   You're basically making tiny adjustments sometimes, adjusting the volume maybe, and then picking

01:11:22   inputs.

01:11:23   That's basically what you're doing.

01:11:25   Everything else now, you know, you're plugging a box and do things there.

01:11:28   So TVs, Apple could not bring a whole lot to that

01:11:31   because most of what a TV does is a dumb screen

01:11:34   that you turn on and off and pick inputs from.

01:11:36   - But they would own the whole screen.

01:11:38   It's like, what can they bring to the phone?

01:11:39   It's basically just a big screen.

01:11:40   They own everything on the screen.

01:11:41   It defines the experience.

01:11:43   - But they already have that with the box.

01:11:45   Anyway, so compare that to the car, to actual car usage.

01:11:50   Like, this is kind of what I was getting at earlier

01:11:52   when I was saying, how much can Apple bring to this?

01:11:54   Like, as you're using your car,

01:11:57   what parts of what you're doing in your car,

01:12:01   when you're actually owning and driving a car,

01:12:03   what parts of that process and that experience

01:12:07   are you heavily interacting with something

01:12:09   where interface quality is that important?

01:12:11   I think one of the reasons why cars

01:12:13   have such mediocre interfaces so often

01:12:16   is because it doesn't really matter that much.

01:12:18   Because for the most part,

01:12:19   you're barely ever looking at the controls, I hope,

01:12:22   and you're not doing that much.

01:12:24   There's like 12 buttons.

01:12:26   You're not doing a massive amount of things.

01:12:29   You're not running freeform software

01:12:31   for plenty of good reasons that probably won't change.

01:12:34   There's not that much going on there.

01:12:37   And many of these advances probably shouldn't happen

01:12:41   for safety reasons.

01:12:42   So I really doubt what value Apple

01:12:46   could realistically bring to this

01:12:48   that would make it worth all this trouble,

01:12:50   all this hassle, all the risk, all the expense,

01:12:52   all the loss of focus.

01:12:54   I don't know, like, what problem are we really desperate for an Apple car to solve?

01:13:01   And because look, all of us agree that cars often have, you know, pretty mediocre interfaces,

01:13:08   but all of us still drive these cars with pretty mediocre interfaces.

01:13:12   We all chose to buy the ones we bought for different reasons, really.

01:13:17   So not only do I not think Apple could make a huge difference here, but I'm also skeptical

01:13:22   to whether they would succeed much in the market because people buy cars for so many

01:13:26   different reasons beyond the things Apple's good at.

01:13:30   Well, I mean, Apple's good at fashion too, and people buy cars for those reasons, but

01:13:33   I think your view of what Apple can bring to this is too narrow.

01:13:36   It's not just about the user interface.

01:13:38   Like I said, it's bringing the things that Tesla has essentially already brought to it,

01:13:40   only bringing it to more people.

01:13:43   The ownership and use experience of an electric car is, I think, significantly different from

01:13:47   an internal combustion engine car, and it's also different from a hybrid.

01:13:51   all the parts of the car that don't necessarily have to do with driving getting in and out of it that like the ownership experience the

01:13:57   Maintenance experience like what the car looks like how big it can be where it can fit like all this the places you can innovate

01:14:03   With an electric car where you can't innovate with internal combustion energy because you have different constraints and Tesla is doing that now and that

01:14:09   That is the that's why I call them the Apple of cars like that is what they're bringing it to it

01:14:13   And yes also

01:14:14   Hopefully making the interior have nicer interface and having integration with your iPhone and having all this other you know

01:14:18   like all the things you would expect them to do,

01:14:21   but I think it's the sort of total ownership experience

01:14:25   that Apple would be bringing to it.

01:14:28   But like, I think we keep going back

01:14:29   to what Apple is making with the car.

01:14:31   And you said, if this rumor is true,

01:14:33   the most likely thing,

01:14:35   like if you think they're right about everything,

01:14:37   is that they're making a car.

01:14:38   I have to think that like a thousand persons seems too small.

01:14:42   And I would think that they would have to be something

01:14:44   in this article about them hiring away

01:14:46   automotive engineers from car makers,

01:14:47   like poaching people from different parts

01:14:49   of the organization.

01:14:50   Like if I just look at these facts,

01:14:52   what it looks like they're doing,

01:14:53   if I say every fact in this Wall Street Journal article

01:14:55   is correct, is they're working on something having to do

01:14:58   with interfaces inside cars.

01:15:00   It does not look to me like they're making a car

01:15:02   because this, I mean, you know, again,

01:15:04   if everything in this article is true,

01:15:05   I would think you should be hiring way, way, way, way, way

01:15:08   more mechanical engineers, automotive engineers,

01:15:11   and stuff like that, and be much less concerned

01:15:15   about like poaching people from the rest

01:15:17   of the organization to do like software and just hiring.

01:15:19   It just seems like, again, unless you're buying Tesla,

01:15:22   which already comes with those people,

01:15:24   this rumor, the most likely thing,

01:15:28   if everything was intruding to this article,

01:15:29   it's like, oh, they're doing something much more significant

01:15:32   having to do with the interior of cars.

01:15:34   That's what it looks like to me.

01:15:36   I'm bored by that too, though.

01:15:37   (laughing)

01:15:39   - Speaking of boring, what if it's something

01:15:41   even more boring than anything we've discussed?

01:15:43   What if they're just using their knowledge of system on a chip and building an ECU?

01:15:52   Or what if they're building a custom ECU to work with their custom head unit to vertically

01:15:56   integrate or whatever the business-y term is?

01:15:59   All the electronics and software in a car.

01:16:02   But it could be any car.

01:16:03   It could be GMs, it could be Fords, it could be Bentley, who cares?

01:16:07   I mean, it's a very boring answer, which is why I don't think it's really Apple style,

01:16:10   but it's a possibility.

01:16:11   I mean, they've gotten pretty good at chip design.

01:16:14   - Yeah, but like, again, who's gonna buy that?

01:16:16   Like, I don't think they wanna be a parts vendor

01:16:18   for car makers, like that's a loser business.

01:16:20   And like anything where you think an Apple will then

01:16:24   do this product or service or technology

01:16:26   to all the car makers, that is kind of the same reason

01:16:29   they can't seem to make a TV.

01:16:30   It's like, and Apple will let this technology

01:16:33   work with every cable company and all the TV.

01:16:35   Like the industry does not want that.

01:16:37   Industry does not want Apple to come in

01:16:39   and sort of do what they did to the,

01:16:42   remember they did the music industry

01:16:43   and it's like, oh, well, Apple's not gonna do that

01:16:45   to my industry, right?

01:16:46   And they basically did it to the cell phone industry too.

01:16:49   Like it was all about, they did to the music industry

01:16:51   and it's like, damn, now Apple has way more power

01:16:53   than we ever wanted them to,

01:16:54   how do we get ourselves into this situation?

01:16:56   And then it was like the video companies,

01:16:58   you know, TV, movies are like,

01:16:59   we're not gonna let Apple do

01:17:01   what they did to the music companies

01:17:02   and they were super resistant and helped competitors

01:17:04   or whatever, it's like, ha, we learned our lesson.

01:17:07   The people who didn't learn that lesson

01:17:08   were the cell phone companies.

01:17:09   They weren't paying enough attention.

01:17:11   They're like, yeah, see what Apple did

01:17:12   the record companies?

01:17:13   Yeah, now like the movie studios are all scared of them.

01:17:15   Ha ha.

01:17:16   They weren't even thinking about themselves.

01:17:17   Then Apple came and did the same thing to them essentially.

01:17:19   It's like, how did this happen?

01:17:21   And the car makers, I would hope wouldn't let that type of,

01:17:25   if only because of pride and stubbornness,

01:17:28   which seems to be very strong in the car business

01:17:30   because there are so few car companies

01:17:32   and because so many of them have long story traditions

01:17:34   having to do with families and everything,

01:17:36   that they do not want an outsider coming in.

01:17:40   And like, first of all, everybody's got it,

01:17:42   it's not a differentiator, so screw that.

01:17:44   And second of all, they don't want anybody coming

01:17:46   and telling them their business.

01:17:47   But I don't know, like it seems to me that Apple,

01:17:52   if again, if these rumors are true,

01:17:54   wants to do something having to do with cars,

01:17:56   and I think they seem to be starting in the interior

01:17:58   and growing slowly.

01:17:59   And so unless they buy Tesla, which they totally should,

01:18:02   because it would be great, I don't see them making a car.

01:18:05   Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Cards Against Humanity, Fracture, and Squarespace,

01:18:11   and we will see you next week.

01:18:13   [MUSIC]

01:18:23   Oh it was accidental.

01:18:25   Accidental.

01:18:26   John didn't do any research.

01:18:28   Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.

01:18:31   Cause it was accidental.

01:18:33   Accidental.

01:18:34   It was accidental.

01:18:35   Accidental.

01:18:36   And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.

01:18:41   And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at

01:18:47   C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

01:18:55   Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracusa

01:19:03   It's accidental (It's accidental)

01:19:06   They didn't mean to, accidental (Accidental)

01:19:11   Tech broadcast, so long

01:19:16   We didn't even mention that oh, it's it's shaped like a minivan. Oh god, can you imagine that had me?

01:19:22   I have to be maybe like maybe it's a compact hatchback of some sort but even that's kind of they just mean it's shaped like

01:19:28   The where this is from or confront

01:19:31   well in electric cars

01:19:32   You can have things like the leaf that look sort of

01:19:35   Small or even like the smart cars that have small internal combustion like you can end up with a car that is

01:19:40   What for lack of a better term dorky looking and it's all just about like oh, it's a little commuter car

01:19:45   It's just for transportation purposes and like that's less interesting to me as well

01:19:50   But then I can imagine someone who doesn't know anything about cars seeing that and saying oh

01:19:53   It's like a minivan or hell seeing the Tesla Model X and seeing it's kind of like a minivan like anything that

01:19:57   Doesn't look like a you know a Ford Crown Victoria from their childhood

01:20:01   Well, wouldn't you wouldn't you default to SUV rather than minivan if you didn't know any better and didn't know anything about cars

01:20:09   I would imagine it has like a snub nose front like someone saying it looks like a minivan that like there's not a lot of

01:20:14   of front overhang because you don't have an engine there and you can get better passenger

01:20:18   package and like the smart cars look, you know what I mean?

01:20:20   Like and then if you make that a little bit larger and puff it up, if it doesn't have

01:20:23   like a nose, it doesn't have a hood, then it looks like a minivan or crossover.

01:20:28   I don't know.

01:20:29   That that that's of all the doomsday scenarios, them making some little electric commuter

01:20:35   car like a Leaf or like it's just so uninteresting because that is and I just I don't know.

01:20:41   We all read that big Johnny Ive interview, right?

01:20:43   I haven't finished it yet.

01:20:45   - Oh, it's so good.

01:20:45   - No homework, it was homework.

01:20:47   - I did like half of it so far, give me a break.

01:20:49   - Yeah, everyone was raving about that article,

01:20:51   but if you have read, what was it,

01:20:53   Leander Caney's "Johnny Ive" book,

01:20:55   a lot of that article read like a book report

01:20:57   on the "Johnny Ive" book,

01:20:58   which is not to say it's a bad thing,

01:20:59   'cause it's great, like, if you haven't read the book,

01:21:01   there's a lot of good information,

01:21:02   and of course, he had actual interviews and access,

01:21:04   and that's the good part of the article,

01:21:05   but a lot of it, I felt like I was wading through information

01:21:07   that I already knew from the book.

01:21:09   That's not a slam in the article,

01:21:10   That's just why I found it difficult to get through.

01:21:12   But anyway, at one point,

01:21:14   Johnny Ive looks out of the window of his Bentley,

01:21:16   at the Toyota Echo next to him,

01:21:18   complains that the styling is terrible.

01:21:19   So I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility

01:21:24   that Apple would be interested in designing a car

01:21:30   and that it would be a dorky car.

01:21:32   Like this is a dorky car done right.

01:21:33   You know what I mean?

01:21:34   Like small, you know, commuter car

01:21:37   for people who don't need to go long distances

01:21:39   and owning this is so much better for people who never even wanted to own a car,

01:21:43   owning this is so much unlike owning a car that it will be great for you and you'll be like,

01:21:46   "Oh, they would never do that. Eddy Cue is on the board of Ferrari and

01:21:49   Johnny Ive has Aston Martins and they like great, cool cars."

01:21:55   But Johnny Ive was looking disdainfully at the Eco, not because I think he thinks the Toyota Eco,

01:21:58   like the idea of a small economical car is terrible, but just because he thought it wasn't designed right.

01:22:03   In his mind, he's like, "I could do a little car that's much better than that."

01:22:06   And he was also picking on somebody who's already down.

01:22:08   I mean, Toyota has not made anything attractive since at least the 90s, if not earlier.

01:22:12   Yeah.

01:22:13   But as soon as the Super got all puffy, it was all downhill.

01:22:16   Although, some of the early Lexuses weren't that bad.

01:22:18   Like, remember the original Lexus SC coupe?

01:22:20   That was an interesting design, don't you think?

01:22:24   Really?

01:22:25   The Lexus SC, you talk about the convertible hardtop?

01:22:27   No, the original SC.

01:22:29   You guys maybe don't remember.

01:22:30   I'll get you your...

01:22:31   I'm looking it up, hold on.

01:22:32   That?

01:22:33   You like that?

01:22:34   No, like super old.

01:22:35   No, you gotta go back in time.

01:22:36   Like what, when did Lexus, when Lexus came out as a company?

01:22:39   - They have one that's like, they have a picture here

01:22:40   of a '93 and a '92.

01:22:43   - Try the SC300 or SC400.

01:22:46   - It looks kind of like an Integra and a Miata had a baby,

01:22:48   and this is like kind of what came out.

01:22:50   - I mean, but compare, like, this is comparatively

01:22:54   much tighter, like as in the skin is stretched

01:22:57   much tighter over this car than it was.

01:22:58   I think this is like, the innovative thing about this

01:23:00   doesn't look like it at the top, looking back,

01:23:02   but like, wow, look how smooth and curved

01:23:05   the front and back are. Like, this is before cars all became water balloons, but this is,

01:23:10   I remember reading a story about this, that one of the design inspirations for the styling

01:23:16   of this car was literally taking a water balloon and squeezing it and seeing, squeezing with

01:23:20   your hand and seeing the different shapes that it sort of bulges into. But compare this

01:23:25   to like current actual water balloon cars and this looks like sporty and spelt and just…

01:23:31   - Eh, I'm not sure I agree with you on how good this is.

01:23:35   - Yeah, I'm with Marco.

01:23:36   This is not a very attractive car at all.

01:23:38   - It's a little bit dated, but at the time it came out,

01:23:41   it was very refined and stylish, and it was a distinctive,

01:23:45   it didn't look like a Mercedes or BMW,

01:23:47   unlike, for example, the LS 400,

01:23:48   which was like, you know, the poor man's Mercedes,

01:23:51   literally only 10 times more reliable and quieter.

01:23:53   But it was like this in the original GS

01:23:57   actually had some distinctive styling cues

01:24:00   where you could say this is like,

01:24:01   you know the current line of Lexus is also a distinctive styling cues they're just all ugly

01:24:04   Our styling is a big giant ugly bowtie mouth. Yeah them and Acura

01:24:09   I I would really say like like this the last couple years have really not been kind to most car design

01:24:16   We've had some really really bad cars being made recently new

01:24:20   I really like the new Accord and I like the new 5 series to happen to be two of our cars

01:24:25   But I think the styling of those cars took a definite turn for the better because the previous generation

01:24:29   Accord was butt ugly and the previous generation 5 was not good

01:24:32   Yeah, I agree with those actually

01:24:34   But you can look around the industry and you can see a lot of things that get seem to keep getting worse

01:24:40   Yeah, like for example everything Acura makes yep every Acura every Lexus

01:24:45   Some BMWs if I can say I really don't like the new m3 styling as we just as we talked about with the skin flaps

01:24:51   I don't like that at all

01:24:53   I don't know like

01:24:54   Accurate I think is a little bit of an upswing because they had they had a really serious unfortunate beak error

01:25:00   And they're I think they're trying to come out of that like the MDX is like the low point

01:25:05   Just or maybe the ZDX whatever that other thing like I think they're starting to come out of it

01:25:11   I think when they merge that merge their high-end sedans back together

01:25:14   into whatever it is the RLX now that the TSX and the RL became the single car the RLX that is a

01:25:21   Personalization and the styling of that car is not entirely hideous and really the RL wasn't entirely hideous here either

01:25:26   But yeah, they're off in a weird direction

01:25:29   I think that I think they're trying to come back where like BMW went off in a weird direction, too

01:25:33   and they're trying to gather it back, but

01:25:35   I think you know

01:25:36   like you said the new the new 3 series starts to go off in a weird direction again like the 5 is 5 was the

01:25:41   Maybe the peak comeback period and we'll see what the next 5 looks like to see if that gets better or worse

01:25:46   God the Maxima is terrible these days. Sorry. Yeah, just don't even look at the Maxima anymore. Just don't look. Oh my god

01:25:52   I heard it was getting better because it had some dark times, but it just keeps getting worse

01:25:57   I missed I missed the 40 SC

01:25:59   Yeah, like I mean the one I had the 96 Maxima was it wasn't it wasn't incredibly attractive

01:26:04   But it was it was at least neutral ding. This is the new one. Oh boy

01:26:09   Jeez, what are they doing? What is wrong with Nissan? Oh

01:26:13   - Oh, what a shame.

01:26:14   The Maxima was so good.

01:26:16   It lost its way so severely.

01:26:18   - Yep.

01:26:19   - Nissan had some interesting things.

01:26:20   Like when the Altima did the wraparound tail lights,

01:26:23   like that was going a little bit too far,

01:26:25   but at least it was interesting.

01:26:26   And I think the Maxima, like one or two generations ago,

01:26:30   also had some interesting features.

01:26:32   It was still kind of puffy,

01:26:33   but they were kind of in the right direction.

01:26:35   And then they just lost it for the current generation.

01:26:38   - Oh man, I miss neutral.

01:26:40   - Wow, the Altima's pretty rough these days too.

01:26:43   boy what are they thinking?

01:26:44   - The car market is not that welcoming as of late.

01:26:49   (laughing)

01:26:50   I mean what is there really that's compelling these days?

01:26:53   - Well I think the move to electric is interesting,

01:26:55   you know, like it's still pretty limited and expensive,

01:26:59   but I think that's like, you know,

01:27:02   it's similar to the move to SSDs and computers,

01:27:04   like that is, that's clearly the way forward eventually.

01:27:09   Obviously it's gonna move a lot more slowly

01:27:11   I think than the SSD transition,

01:27:13   but 'cause turns out gas engines are good enough

01:27:17   for so many things and way better at certain other things

01:27:21   that like, yeah, it's gonna be a long time

01:27:24   before gas engines are even the minority.

01:27:27   But I think the electric cars are gonna be

01:27:30   where we are looking for excitement.

01:27:33   And you know, maybe that's why Apple wants

01:27:35   to be a part of it if they do, who knows,

01:27:36   but you know, clearly from people who have driven them

01:27:40   or from people who own them,

01:27:41   There are a lot of compelling differences to them.

01:27:44   There's still a lot of downsides, but we'll get there.

01:27:49   - I just looked at the 2015 Maxima.

01:27:51   I was thinking of the 2014 one.

01:27:54   The 2015 one, holy cow!

01:27:56   - Did they make it even worse?

01:27:58   - I am speechless.

01:28:04   I haven't felt this way since the last time,

01:28:06   when I first saw the rear end of the C7 Corvette.

01:28:09   Like that's the last time I felt this way.

01:28:12   - Let me see, what happened?

01:28:14   - I just put it in the chat room.

01:28:16   - What is that?

01:28:17   - I mean it's a concept, all right.

01:28:20   Maybe it's a concept.

01:28:22   I just did search for Nissan Maxima 2015.

01:28:25   If this is a concept I feel a little bit better, but like.

01:28:28   - Yeah, this is not a shipping car.

01:28:30   - But if it was, that would be a big mistake,

01:28:33   'cause that is not an attractive vehicle.

01:28:35   - At least it would be different.

01:28:36   I mean, you could at least describe this one as polarizing,

01:28:41   whereas the regular Maxima you can just describe

01:28:44   as mediocre to bad.

01:28:45   Polarizing, somebody will love this.

01:28:49   People with bad taste probably, but somebody will love this.

01:28:52   Whereas the current Maxima, nobody can love it.

01:28:54   - That's what I was thinking of the current one,

01:28:55   where that design with the little corner cut

01:28:58   out of the headlights, the first time they did that

01:29:00   was interesting, but now the car's puffy and gross again.

01:29:04   - It looks like a mistake.

01:29:05   It's like it just look it looks like somebody like somebody just screwed up while dragging out this design and 3d modeling software

01:29:12   Everybody go over Honda Accord 2014 to cleanse your palate. Oh

01:29:15   God listen to this guy. Oh wait wait wait the Maxima was at the end of the really sappy Super Bowl commercial from this year

01:29:23   The one where the dad's a race car driver

01:29:26   And and he like picks his son up from school or something like that at the very is the one where they killed children to

01:29:31   advertise insurance

01:29:32   No, I said sappy not stupid

01:29:35   Anyway, the dad like picks up his kid after he's missed his entire childhood, but he picks him up in a new Maxima

01:29:41   So all is forgiven. I put the link in the chat about one minute and 16 seconds give or take a little bit

01:29:46   Wait this I'm looking at the 2014 Honda Accord to cleanse my impala and you're right

01:29:50   It did close out because it just looks completely forgettable. Like don't look at the hybrid don't look at the hybrid

01:29:55   I'm I'm looking at the LX sedan on automotive calm

01:30:00   It's just oh, it's just like it's just incredibly bland

01:30:04   It's even in in that light silver color that all incredibly bland cars in the last decade have been not bland it is

01:30:09   Distinctive it is non bloaty is attractive

01:30:12   It has nice wheels. I agree that it's non bloaty like the sheet metal is stuck to the car. Yes

01:30:20   Yeah, I will agree. I will give you that point and it is a car shaped car

01:30:24   Yes, Wow it's not shaped like a snail or a poop our standards are pretty low here

01:30:29   This is this is this is what I look at that friggin maxima. What is that shape like not a car?

01:30:34   I guess yeah that that is the epitome of water balloon design. I

01:30:37   Actually do not think the Accord is very good-looking to be honest with you

01:30:41   You know, it really needs that spoiler lip on the back to keep the wheels on the ground

01:30:45   It's really fast does a little extra downforce for that. I think

01:30:48   The rear end is not great, but it's better than past Accords

01:30:53   But I really like the front of it and even like I say oh

01:30:55   Isn't there just a little bit too much chrome on the front like just

01:30:57   Look at all the other Honda's that are trying to use the same design language, and how gross they are and this is the one

01:31:03   Car that got this design language to be attractive

01:31:06   I think this looks no different to me than what's the big Toyota the Camry?

01:31:11   This is so different go actually look at a camera a Camry now your Google camera

01:31:15   You will see there's a huge never never mind if you see them in person. It's not even close like

01:31:20   rectilinear headlights.

01:31:22   - All right, so I'm looking at a Camry now and--

01:31:24   - They look the exact same.

01:31:25   - No, it does not.

01:31:26   Are you crazy?

01:31:27   - I would say the Accord looks better.

01:31:29   - Way better.

01:31:29   - I would say the difference is pretty small.

01:31:31   - Thank you, I would agree with that, Marco.

01:31:32   - No way, look at the giant fish mouth and the friggin',

01:31:35   oh, I'm not gonna be Avalon, but like the Camry,

01:31:37   like it's just, the Camry has nothing going for it.

01:31:39   It has no, it has no distinction to its design.

01:31:42   It is just a series of little details

01:31:45   tacked onto a squishy shape.

01:31:47   - Well, I would say the same thing is true of the Accord.

01:31:49   but it just looks a little bit less squishy.

01:31:50   There's not a lot going on here.

01:31:52   It is a very, if you think about what would be

01:31:56   the dictionary definition of a car,

01:31:57   it would have a picture of this next to it.

01:31:59   If you ever see those pictures where they average

01:32:02   every human face and then it shows the most average face.

01:32:05   - No, but this would not be the average.

01:32:07   This is different, average together,

01:32:09   like the Camry and the Maxima.

01:32:11   You do not get the Accord, it is not the average.

01:32:14   It may have been the average of a bunch of cars

01:32:16   like a decade ago, but it is off the beaten path

01:32:19   of car makers now.

01:32:20   I think this car is attractive and classy, I would say.

01:32:23   Classy, it does not embarrass itself

01:32:26   in the way that the other cars do.

01:32:28   - 'Cause it just disappears.

01:32:29   It just blends right into whatever.

01:32:31   - I don't think it just disappears.

01:32:32   I think being classy in this way doesn't disappear

01:32:35   in the same way that like Casey's beloved 5 Series.

01:32:38   Like, whoa, this is boring.

01:32:39   It just kind of blends in with the background.

01:32:40   Just looks like a car.

01:32:41   The only thing that distinguishes this,

01:32:42   it's got little kidneys in the front,

01:32:43   but otherwise it's just a car-shaped car.

01:32:45   Remember when all the BMWs were all like the same shape,

01:32:47   just came in different sizes?

01:32:49   - Not that different from now, honestly.

01:32:50   - Well, it is now, but they all have these bulges

01:32:52   and ripples and flanges all over them,

01:32:55   and they all have different ripples and flanges.

01:32:56   But when they all look the same,

01:32:58   the complaint was it's too boring.

01:33:00   It doesn't have the excitement of, you know,

01:33:03   if I'm gonna spend this much money in a car,

01:33:05   I want it to look more exciting.

01:33:06   I just don't want it to look like the same car

01:33:08   in three sizes and super boring.

01:33:10   But I think that's a, you know,

01:33:13   Having restraint and being sort of a classy car that the places where it decides to emphasize

01:33:19   its attractiveness is in the small details, but the overall shape is very just simple

01:33:23   and non-showy.

01:33:26   I think it's a perfectly valid way to go.

01:33:27   I think I screwed it up with the back because the tail lights aren't particularly nice looking,

01:33:31   but the overall shape of the car I think is very pleasing.

01:33:34   See your definition of classy to me what you're describing is the E39 M5.

01:33:39   When I think of boring and unremarkable, I think of pretty much any Accord that's ever

01:33:43   been ever.

01:33:44   Another good example is the front air dam, like the big plastic front bumper thing, whatever

01:33:48   you're going to call that.

01:33:50   So many car makers, including I think most BMWs these days, just go nuts with that thing

01:33:55   and mess it up.

01:33:56   Oh, well, the, well, the thing with BMWs, you're right, is that, and I've talked about

01:34:00   this a million times, the non M sport front air dam on a regular BMW is like a little

01:34:05   slit and it looks awful.

01:34:07   It looks terrible.

01:34:08   of the reason I insisted on getting myself an M Sport 335 was not because of anything

01:34:14   else.

01:34:15   Like it doesn't really go any faster, it doesn't handle any better because I have an X Drive.

01:34:18   It was strictly for that air dam because it actually looks good.

01:34:22   I think most of the things try to make everything like it has giant jet intakes and big scoops

01:34:27   and flanges and things poking out of it and that's why I think that the M Sport ones look

01:34:30   worse than the other ones or like at least more gaudy.

01:34:34   And just look at the look at the big front piece of plastic on this Accord.

01:34:38   It is restrained, it does not call attention to itself.

01:34:42   It completes the shape of the car with maybe a little bit of smarty pretensions of like

01:34:47   sticking out at the bottom rim a little bit and with a little tiny chrome accent.

01:34:51   But it does not, I mean, just compare it to that same part on an M3, current generation

01:34:56   M3, which just like screams at you that I'm a Transformer.

01:34:59   Well but you're just, you're making our point, which is like, the Accord looks like, it looks

01:35:04   average and forgettable.

01:35:05   It is like, it doesn't jump out at you.

01:35:08   None of the design just jumps out and says,

01:35:10   look at me, I'm a huge design flaw.

01:35:13   It just, the whole car just looks like an average,

01:35:17   completely forgettable car.

01:35:18   - Well, average car doesn't have those wheels.

01:35:20   And I would say an average car doesn't have

01:35:21   the LED highlights and the headlights.

01:35:24   And the, you know, looking restrained,

01:35:27   I think it does make a stand.

01:35:28   Again, compare it to the Avalon,

01:35:29   which looks like a giant cheese grater fish grill

01:35:31   flying through the air with a chrome nose on it.

01:35:33   Like, that is what the average car looks like.

01:35:35   Go look at, you know.

01:35:37   It's not, this is the average car.

01:35:40   Like, the Altima is the average car.

01:35:42   The Maxima is the average car.

01:35:44   The Camry is the average car.

01:35:45   They do not look like, compare the thing I just pasted

01:35:47   in the chat room with the Accord.

01:35:49   And say like, well, you know, it calls attention to itself,

01:35:51   but in a bad way.

01:35:52   And if you averaged a bunch of cars together,

01:35:54   I think you would get something

01:35:54   that would look way more like the Avalon than like the Accord.

01:35:56   - Oh my God, the Avalon is ridiculous.

01:35:58   What is that?

01:35:59   - That's the current, that's like,

01:36:01   - Oh my God. - And again,

01:36:02   look at the Camry with the little chrome, like--

01:36:04   - This is uglier than the Maxima concept.

01:36:06   - Exactly, like that's what the average car looks like now.

01:36:09   And look at the front bumper thing.

01:36:11   Well, go look at the Camry.

01:36:13   - Yeah, you're right.

01:36:14   That front air dam is the kind of front air dam

01:36:17   that I like, the big gaping hole,

01:36:19   taken way too far, entirely too far.

01:36:22   - And on top of it is an ugly chrome nose,

01:36:25   and it's got misshapen headlights hanging off the corners,

01:36:27   and the fog lights are all misshapen.

01:36:29   - Oh, we agree about this.

01:36:30   What is this?

01:36:31   I'm just blown away by this car, by the Avalon.

01:36:35   Oh my God.

01:36:37   I rented an Avalon a couple years ago on a trip

01:36:40   and it was a pretty reasonable car.

01:36:42   It was huge and totally marshmallowy,

01:36:45   you couldn't feel or do anything.

01:36:46   But it was overall a respectable choice.

01:36:49   It looked average, it was black, it was low key,

01:36:52   it was pretty fast given what it was,

01:36:55   and it was comfortable, it was fine.

01:36:57   It was a perfectly fine choice.

01:37:00   This, my god, I mean.

01:37:03   - Go look at the, now go look at the camera

01:37:04   I just pasted in.

01:37:05   - Ooh, that is, that is really bad.

01:37:07   - Go look at the front piece of plastic on this camera

01:37:09   and look at the shape of the headlights

01:37:10   and look at how the shape of the headlights

01:37:12   just have no conviction.

01:37:14   Like, keep the Accord open in other windows.

01:37:16   You can keep looking back from one to the other.

01:37:18   Look at the friggin' front of that camera.

01:37:20   Oh, camera and Accord, they basically look the same.

01:37:21   Are you kidding me?

01:37:22   Look at that thing.

01:37:23   - Wait, I didn't say they basically look the same.

01:37:26   - I did.

01:37:27   - Now that you see them both in front of you,

01:37:29   Do you understand how the Accord is very different?

01:37:31   And if you average all these cars together,

01:37:33   they would not look like that.

01:37:34   And again, throw in the Altima, throw in, you know.

01:37:37   - This Camry looks like it's been an accident.

01:37:39   (laughing)

01:37:41   Doesn't it look like the way it has those half fog lights

01:37:45   like on the side, and then the whole front grill

01:37:48   is like weirdly shaped and black.

01:37:50   It looks like it was in an accident

01:37:52   and it's been half repaired,

01:37:54   and they haven't like painted the new parts yet.

01:37:56   - Look at the hood cut lines even.

01:37:58   Look at the shape of the headlights,

01:38:00   look at the hood cut lines,

01:38:01   look at the lack of confidence in the chrome

01:38:04   that's going across the thing through the logo.

01:38:06   It just, it's nothing.

01:38:09   And you know, I think the only other car company,

01:38:12   boring car company, that has cars that have the styling

01:38:15   that is not embarrassing and hideous is Mazda.

01:38:17   The Mazda 6, again, does not look like other cars.

01:38:21   Is interesting, it has a family resemblance,

01:38:23   and it has some interesting styling on it,

01:38:25   but it has sort of the courage of its convictions.

01:38:27   It says conviction right in the marketing title.

01:38:29   Conviction, creativity, courage.

01:38:32   This is what changes the game.

01:38:34   It's the first word on the page.

01:38:35   - Yeah, see, so Erin has a 2007 Mazda 6,

01:38:38   which I think is a very pretty car for the time.

01:38:41   It has--

01:38:42   - Less conviction there.

01:38:43   - It has the kind of large front air dam that I like.

01:38:47   Then the generation after hers,

01:38:48   which started in like 2008, 2009,

01:38:51   it was one or two generations actually

01:38:53   that were just terrible.

01:38:54   But I agree with you that the brand new Mazda 6,

01:38:57   maybe it's a year or two old now, is also very pretty and I also really really like it.

01:39:01   Yeah, and I don't like the styling as much as the Accord, but you can't say that it looks like...

01:39:07   I think they've made it worse. The one I just pasted actually looks worse than the original generations.

01:39:10   But like it has kind of shoulders and hips and its headlights have a purposeful distinct shape. Same thing with its hood cut lines.

01:39:17   Everything about it is not...

01:39:18   Like I hate cars where it looks like they molded the car out of clay and then someone else came later and

01:39:24   Cut out where the hood would be like even the BM the current BMW 3s with like the hood

01:39:28   Corners that end kind of over on the right and left edges by the headlights

01:39:32   Like it looks like you made a car shape and it was a good car shape

01:39:35   But where you put where you cut out for the hood

01:39:37   Makes your car less attractive like it's not integrated into the shape. It's just like you took up a line a laser

01:39:43   Okay, now that's where the hood opens

01:39:45   Did you speaking of hoods? Did you watch that? I ate video that someone sent us? No, I watched two seconds of it

01:39:51   I didn't have a chance you should because well first of all make Marco never buy this car

01:39:54   Which may be good because we think we shouldn't he shouldn't buy this car. So we'll stop him from

01:39:58   So far, I think I shouldn't buy this car. So you don't need to do any convincing there

01:40:02   I wish we still have that. I think someone email it to us

01:40:06   No, I mean like I've never been interested in the i-8 because it is it is not a four-door sedan

01:40:11   Ultimately, I really just want a four-door sedan and I'm very happy with the one I have

01:40:16   You know

01:40:16   Some of the chat rooms said the BMW i8 screams Tesla anxiety Tesla is with the exception of perhaps of the stupid door handles is

01:40:23   A actual real regular car like use it every day. Nothing about it is weird

01:40:28   You can open and close all the doors simply because I it has those weird doors as well

01:40:32   You can open and close all the different trunk hatches. You can get in and get out of it

01:40:35   It has seats as you know, everything about it is just it's a car you can drive it

01:40:39   Whereas the i8 is like it's kind of a work of art kind of kind of a statement about something

01:40:46   It also kind of works as a car if you're careful. All right, so so let's let's take on the big guns now

01:40:52   I don't think the Tesla Model S is that attractive

01:40:55   It's not the front of the front of the Tesla Model S is ugly like the grill thing speaking of mouth

01:41:00   But the overall shape is pretty decent. I would say that the Model S looks like it looks extremely blobby

01:41:06   It looks like all the personalities been sanded off. I don't like the light design

01:41:11   I don't like the front or the back design or the side design and I think and I've seen

01:41:16   a number of them in person and I don't think they use very high quality paint.

01:41:20   I've never seen, like the black doesn't look very good, the silver just kind of looks boring.

01:41:26   Like you can look at certain cars, like I always get blacks, you can look at certain

01:41:29   cars and you can see like certain blacks are better looking than others and Tesla I think

01:41:34   has a pretty crappy one.

01:41:36   And like it doesn't look like its price at all and for a car that is so interesting and

01:41:42   revolutionary, I think it should look a little more like that.

01:41:46   And it doesn't.

01:41:47   - That's Tesla's weak spot.

01:41:48   The interior are the same as well.

01:41:49   The materials of the interior are the,

01:41:51   although supposedly in the new models

01:41:52   there's an option for much better seats,

01:41:54   but like the interior of the car

01:41:55   does not look like a car of that price.

01:41:57   The materials, the comfort,

01:41:58   the thickness of the padding on the seats,

01:42:00   like it just, and like I said, the outside of it,

01:42:03   the paint quality, the detailing,

01:42:05   it seems like a lower class than it should be.

01:42:08   I think the overall shape is actually pretty good

01:42:10   and actually kind of interesting and muscular,

01:42:12   but the front and rear end treatments do not do justice to the overall shape, which I think

01:42:17   the overall shape is not bad.

01:42:18   Like, if you blanked over all the headlights and tail lights and got rid of that ugly mouth

01:42:22   grille on the front and just looked like the shape of the car, it looks, in that regard,

01:42:27   I think it does look like an expensive car in this shape, because most cars, but again

01:42:31   maybe the exception of like the Mazda 6, don't look sort of that muscular and purposeful,

01:42:37   especially a car with as much interior room as the Model S has.

01:42:40   It doesn't look like a big giant crossover SUV thing that's lowered down

01:42:45   But I mean consider what came before it Tesla Roadster was just flat-out ugly like it was not an attractive looking car at all

01:42:52   It was just the shape of it was awkward and weird and everything about it. I don't think that's true

01:42:56   I thought it was a decent looking car

01:42:58   I mean it granted it was basically just a lotus

01:43:00   But I didn't think it was a bad looking car. The lotus looks way better on that same frame than the thing

01:43:05   But the Model S has something to recommend it and it sort of defines a Tesla look

01:43:09   I don't particularly think the Tesla look is that attractive, but I do like the overall shape of the car

01:43:12   And I do think the shape looks a little bit expensive. But yeah, the detailing you can get a yacht floor

01:43:17   What are they model s? Yeah, there's an option for a yacht floor. Yeah, I think they are cranking up the options

01:43:22   Like what was it?

01:43:23   What is a yacht floor?

01:43:24   Hey, Vannion of super duper famous telling me about the new model of Tesla's because he got to drive one

01:43:28   You know like the dealership gave him one when his was in for service

01:43:31   So we got to drive one of the new fast ones and everything and it's telling about the new options

01:43:34   I think like they realize where the weaknesses are

01:43:36   Like if people spend that much money out the car they want the interior to feel better than a $30,000

01:43:42   You know $35,000 BMW with cloth seats. They don't even make those anymore, but they used to right, right?

01:43:47   Well, cuz well, no they still do in Europe just not in the US

01:43:49   No, I mean like and then the problem Tesla's always had is like they've always compared themselves in justifying their their high price

01:43:57   They've always said well if you compare us to like a Mercedes s-class, which is what we're comparable to blah blah blah

01:44:03   It's not even a contest right like if you compare the interior quality

01:44:06   to other like the set to a 7 series an s-class or the amenities or yeah or the amenities

01:44:12   You know the Lexus the high-end Lexus is like if you compare it to any of the very high-end large sedans

01:44:17   It doesn't quite match at least it hasn't in the past

01:44:21   Maybe you know, I haven't seen one of these new ones yet

01:44:22   But the Tesla will take that s-class off the line any day though

01:44:26   And so like so you can kind of start selling it as like in the same way that you don't expect like, you know

01:44:32   an Audi RS or a

01:44:34   Portion of gt3 you know the interior is gonna be like

01:44:37   Stripped down and bare and like that's part of the aesthetic of the car like you're not in so like in some ways Tesla kind

01:44:43   Of unintentionally has that going for it

01:44:45   It's like we don't intentionally make it stripped down although

01:44:47   I always thought in the beat in the first model like the interior was like the padding was so thin and the seats and everything

01:44:51   Just because they wanted to save weight and like those big luxurious

01:44:53   Cushy seats like you have in your car Margo they weigh a lot and so if you're trying to cut down a weight

01:44:59   You're gonna give it a little bit cheaper seats

01:45:00   And that's why I think like the new seats are an option

01:45:02   and I wonder how much more they weigh than the other stuff,

01:45:05   but if you're gonna go with that thing,

01:45:08   at least you have performance to back it up.

01:45:10   I mean, it still weighs a ton

01:45:12   and still not gonna change direction that well,

01:45:14   but it does have that super flat cornering attitude

01:45:17   that feels weird and it's super fast and quiet

01:45:21   and actually a fun electric car to drive by all accounts.

01:45:25   - I gotta drive one.

01:45:27   I'm tired of guessing how much fun it is.

01:45:29   - I think you will find it to be super heavy

01:45:31   and corner strangely flat and be really fast

01:45:33   in a straight line.

01:45:34   - That's very likely, yeah.

01:45:36   And I'm gonna hate the lack of knobs and buttons.

01:45:38   - I have not driven one, but I have been driven in one,

01:45:40   and even just being a passenger,

01:45:41   I was just immediately apparent.

01:45:44   Like, it's not like I went in expecting to feel this

01:45:46   'cause I didn't really know, didn't think about it,

01:45:47   whatever, how flat it is in cornering.

01:45:50   Like, strangely so, startling,

01:45:52   without having stiff suspension where you feel every bump,

01:45:55   because it's just the center of gravity.

01:45:57   Like, this humongous weight is around the bottom of the car.

01:46:00   And then, did I feel that the car felt heavy?

01:46:03   I can't tell that as a passenger,

01:46:05   but I just know it is heavy 'cause it is, you know.

01:46:08   - Wonder how many people are actually gonna listen to this.

01:46:10   - I gotta cut all this neutral out

01:46:11   'cause people can't take it.

01:46:12   - The whole show was neutral.

01:46:13   This is mostly staying in, I think.

01:46:16   - Yeah, Apple car, it's not our fault.

01:46:18   They forced our hand.

01:46:19   - Yeah, we had to do this.

01:46:20   It was an accidental car podcast.

01:46:22   [door closes]

01:46:24   [BLANK_AUDIO]